4908 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SEN ATE. JULY 28,
MARY CALLAM. the International and Great Northern Railway Company to donate to Mr. TOWNSEND, of New York, by unanimous consent, int.roduced the United States the la.ntl upon which Fort Elliott is built; which a bill (H. R. No. 3997) for the relief of Mary Callam; which was read was referred to the Committee on Military Affairs, and ordered to be a first and second time, referred to the Committee on Invalid Pen printed. sions, and ordered to be printed. He also laid before the Senate a letter of the Attorney-General, transmitting, in answer to a resolution of the 24th instant, a state HANS S. PETERSEN. ment of the number of civil officers employed by the Department of Mr. MORGAN, by unanimous consent, from the Committee on In- Justice from 1859 to 1875, inclusive; which was ordered to lie on the • dian Affairs, reported back, with favorable recommendation, the bill table and be printed. (S. No. 709) for the relief of Hans S. Petersen; which was referred to He also laid before the Senate a letter of the Postmaster-General, the Committee of the Whole on the Private Calendar, and the ae tral\smitting, in answer to a. resolution of the 24th instant, a state companying report ordered to be printed. ment of the number of civil officers employe(l by the Post-Office De A. B. GREENWOOD. partment from 1859 to 1875, inclusive; which was ordered to lie on Mr. MORGAN also, by unanimous consent, from the same commit the table and be printed. tee, reported back, with a favorable recommendation, the bill (H. R. IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS-ADJOURNMENT TO MONDAY. No. 3653) for the relief of A. B. Greenwood, of Barry County, Mis Mr. EDMUNDS. I offer the following order at this time, because souri; which waa referred to the Committee of the Whole on the it relates to the lapse in the impeachment business: Private Calendar, and the accompanying report ordered to be printed. Ordered, Pursuant to Rule 25 for impeachments. that the Senate will resume the EUNICE B. PHILLIPS. conshlerntion of the anic. los of impeachment against William W. Belknap at twelve Mr. BEEBE, by unanimous consent, introduced a bill (H. R. No. o'cloak noon, this day. 3998) granting a pension to Eunice B. Phillips, of Newburgh, Orange :Mr. INGALLS. As there are quite a number of Senators absent on C01mty, New York; which was readafirstand second time, referred to unavoidable business, I would suggest to the Senator from Vermont the Committee on Revolutionary Pensions, and ordered to be printed. t.liat it might be advisable to modify the order ~o that it will read "at twelve o'clock on Monday next," at which time I understand ORDER OF BUSINESS. those Senators will return. Mr. ASHE. I ask unanimous consel!.t to report a private bill from Mr. EDMUNDS. I am quite willing to submit to the pleasure of tho Committee on the Judiciary for action at this time. the Senate. · . Mr. HURLBUT. I object. Mr. INGALLS. I have no preference myself. Mr. BLAND. I call for the regular order of business. . Mr. EDMUNDS. My object, of course,is to revive the proceeding; Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. I rise to a privileged question. that is all. Mr. HILL. I wish tho gentleman would allow me a moment. Mr. ANTHONY. \Ve might agree to take no vote to-day. Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. Under the circumstances I must de Mr. SHERMAN. I hope there will be no postponement. cline to yield to the request of the gentleman from Georgia, and I Mr. EDMUNDS. If we are to adjourn over to-morrow, as the re now yield to the gentleman from West Virginia~ [Mr. WILSON.] spect we have shown to such occasions has usually led us to do, on Mr. WILSON, of West Virginia. I ask that the message from the account of the funeral of our late associate, [.Mr. CAPERTON,] then I Senate colliDlunicating tho proceedings of that body on the death of am not sure but that it would be better to say tha:t we will take up Hon. A. T. CAPERTON, late a Senator from the State of West Virginia, the impeachment matter on :Monday. May I ask any of the Senators be now taken up. if any of them are acquainted with the fact that his funeral at home The message from the Senate wa-s read, as follows: is to be to-morrowf Re&olved, That the Senate has received with profound sorrow the announcement :Mr. RANDOLPH. That was the statement made yesterday ?Y of the :B:e also,.from t.he same committee, to whom was referred the bill Mr. SHERMAN. I should like to hear the bill read. (H. R. No. 2159) granting a 11ension to Aaron H. Miller, late private The Chief Clerk again read the bill. of Company G, Twenty·ninth Regiment In 4910 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JULY 28, direct taxes does not apply at all. It was a sale for inte~nal-reven~e The Department has uniformly re 1876. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 4911 This may be a small matter, but it is practically a revolution and a pliance with them. I might go on and refer to other decisions of the surrender of the whole system on which the grants to the States of the Supreme Court which in my judgment, not enlighted by them, I swamp lands have been made. I h::we no doubt this surrender to the should consider to be extremely hard on the settlers, and were it not States of swamp lands has been more productive of frauds, shameless for these opinions of the Supreme Court I should say extremely un wrongs, petty stealing, than almost any other law, because lands have just. I do not desire, however, to use language of that kind toward been entered under the name of swamp lands that aTe high, rolling, and that tribunal; but when they come in and say that when Congress beautiful lands. Now to complete the farce it is proposed to appro gives a grant of land on the express condition that the acr.epting priate the proceeds of these swamp lands to the ordinary distribu party shall improve that land the consideration moving from the tion of charity in a St.ate instead of being devoted as the law requires United Stat.es being that by the improvment of this land its own land them to be to the improvement of other lands in the neighborhood adjacent is improved, this is not a contract with the accepting party and thus enable the Government of the United States to sell the-resi which binds it, I should rank this with the other decision of the Su due of its lands at a reasonable price. preme Court which denied pre-emptors any right after Congress by Mr. WINDOM. The reason given by the Senator from Ohio would a dozen statutes had endeavored to confer rights on them. If, how undoubtedly be a good one if the law had ever been complied with in ever, the right does not exist on the part of the United States tore any State, but I think it is a fact that, with the exception of this sin quire compliance with the conditions of the grants, then it is about gle application on the part of the State of Alabama, every State to time we had legislation on the statute-book so plain and clear that which swamp lauds have been granted has appropriated the funds even the Supreme Court of the United States might understand its derived therefrom to anything it chose, and seldom, if ever, to the provisions and hold that the United States had some right to enforce draining of the swamp lands. It seems to me that, this being the the conditions of grants which it makes to parties who accept them first application to make a legal disposit.ion of this thing, to comply and take the beneti.t of them. with the law, or at least to ask Congress to change it without doing I trust this bill will not pass, because it is a sanetion of a loose it contrary to the law, it is a case where we ought to receive the ap theory; it is a sanction of the idea that a party receiving on condi plication with a good deal of favor. tions benefits from the Government of the United States may disre Mr. SHERMAN. All I can say is that I must express my surprise. gard those conditions, and at any rate may appropr~ate the money I know that in Indiana and Ohio attempts have been made at least to another purpose and afterward come in and ask Congress to sanc to carry on works of draining, and the money bas been invested, tion such malappropriation of money. Congress is too much played sometimes foolishly! sometimes wastefully, in the attempt to improve with in these things. The rights of the people which it endeavors to other lands; but I am surprised to hear the broad statement made protect are too much disregarded by those who receive these benefits. that this law has been violated in every instance. If so, our first Lobbyists come here on behalf of some corporation and ask certain duty is to repeal the law which grants to the States these swamp privileges at the bands of Congress. They profess their desire to do lands. a certain great public good; they are as disinterested and patriotic Mr. WINDOM. I am glad to hear the testimony from the Senator as it is possible for their own language to describe them; but after from Ohio that an attempt has been made in some quarters to appro they have got their hands and their pockets full of benefits from the priate tho swamp lands in the way p:escribed by law. I should be Congress of the United States, they forget all about their promises, very glad indeed to have the specific improvements ever made by the all about the obligations which are put in the law. All the bar swamp-land grants pointecl out. I have heard the statement fre riers which we raise to protect the Treasury of the United States or quently made as broad as I have made it; and, if I am wrong, I am the rights of the peopl~ these corporations break through as throu~h glad to be corrected. I think the instances in which the law bas a net of cobwebs and all the precautions we have taken go for noth been complied with are very rare. But upon the statement of the ing. I am opposed to sanctioning at any rate this course of proceed Senator from Ohio of course I am now satisfied that there are some ing on the part of corporations and States that have received these exceptions to tho broad statement I have made. benefits from the Government of the United States. I would hold Mr. WEST. If the Senator will allow me to interrupt him, I wish them to the law. If they see fit to violate it and we have no remedy, to say in regard to the State of Louisiana that she has spent millions then let it go; but I do not desire so far a-a I am concerned to be par and millions of dollars upon her levee system, protecting the lauds ticeps criminis in the illegal diversion of the money arising from these of that State granted by the Government, and protecting the remain lands. ing lands of the United States Government; and were a balance Mr. MITCHELL. Mr. President, I agree with a great deal of what struck to-day as between the trea-sury of that State and the Treasury the Senator from California says; but the Senator from California of the United States, we have expended millions upon that account. argues as though there had been an illegal diversion of this fund by Mr. WINDOM. I know that in many of the Western States the the States. I do not understand it so. proceeds of the swamp lands have been devoted to railroad com Mr. SARGENT. I spoke of this diversion in Alabama. I said in panies and in every other way rather than to the draining of swamp California they had not been so diverted. and overflowed lands, as the law prescribes. Mr. MITCHELL. I understand that the act making these grants Mr. SARGENT. If any State has given the proceeds of its swamp incorporated in it a direction as to the disposition of the fund, and lands, or the swamp lands themselves, to any railroad company, it I understand that the Supreme Court of the United States bas de was in violation of the agreement with Congress for the reclamation cided that that was merely directory and not binding upon the dif of these lands. I know that in California the proceeds of these lands ferent States and that they could make any use of this fund they have been devoted by State statute expressly to the reclamation of saw proper. I know that as a matter of fact, as stated by the hon the lands. I have never believed, however, in these swamp-land gifts orable Senator from :Minnesota, a great many of the States have mado to the States, not because if merely swamp ]Jl.nds were given to the dispositions of the fund different from that pointed out in the stat States to be reclaimed it would not have been beneficial, bot because ute. In relation to the case in Alabama, the State of Alabama comes by false constructions of the law, by false t.estimony as to the charac to Congress and says to Congress, "Here we would like to make a cer ter of the lands, large amounts of land not swamp in the contempla tain disposition of these funds, we would like to devote these funds tion of _Congress in the original acts or in the subseqn.ent ones have for the benefit of the insane and idiotic." They do not propose, al been taken away from tile Government of the United States, and, though the decision of the Supreme Court is as I have already said, what is worse, from the settlers who had settled upon them and im to make any diversion of funds unless with the consent of Congress. proved them, and who found that any right which they had by pre It seems to me as they come here and ask this in view of the dispo emption or homestead was cut out by a pretended grant under the sition of the -funds by different States, they ought to be allowed to swamp-land law antedating the rights which they bad acquired. make this disposition of these particular funds in Alabama. It is The whole system of swamp-land grants has been a great curse to certainly for a very meritorious purpose. the United States; but I never knew that, in addition t-o other mis Mr. SHERMAN. I wish to call the attention of the Senate to the chiefs brought about by that system1 the money had been squandered express condition on which all these grants were made. I turri to the by giving it to railroads or disposed of illegally and not applied to act of Seytember 28, 1850: the reclamation of the lands. I doubt whether it is well for the Gov The proceeds of said lands, whether from sale or by direct appropriation in kind, ernment by this bill to sanction a system of this kind. In fact if shall be applied exclusively, as far u.s necessary, to the reclaiming said lands by States have thus squandered the money arising from these lands and means of levees and drains. have not devoted it to the reclaiming of them, it seems to me it might That is the sole purpose for which the grants are made. be well for Congress to require that some proceedings be taken in the Mr. HOWE. Where do yon find that section f courts to compel the execution of the trust which was put in these Mr. SHERMAN. On page 456 of the Revised Statutes, section 2480. States for the reclamation of the lands or the payment of the money Mr. McDONALD. I should like to ask the Senator from Ohio if into the United States Treasury in order that we may so apply it. there should be a surplus of the funds after the necessary improve Mr. MITCHELL. Has not the Supreme Court of the United States ments have been made, whether that, in his opinion, would revert to decided that that provision of the law is only directory! the United States 7 Mr. SARGENT. The provision of law was directory, but it wa-s an Mr. SHERMAN. I think not. express provision of the grant. I am not here to attaek or defend the Mr. McDONALD. Might not the State in that case very properly opinions of the Supreme Court of the United States. I know the ask the consent of Congress to invest it in some benevolent institu Supreme Court of the United States once said that after Congress had tion' by most careful laws hedged around the rights of pre-emptors, bad Mr. SHES-MAN. I think the case could not arise, because from the stated the manner in which they should proceed under its laws to ac very nature of the grant, these being swamp lands, they want drain quire an inchoate title which should ripen by payment of t.he pur ing, aml the draining conducted in almost any way the Senator chase-money., yet no right nccrued under any oo; these laws or. by com- know~ woql.d exho,ust the fund . '" 4912 OONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JULY 28, Mr. McDONALD. But it does not necessa.rily exhaust the fund; A bill (S. No. 982) providing for the completion of the 'Vashington the land may still yield twice the amount that the ditching will cost. Monument. I do not understand that the l)ill under considerntion proposes to The message further announced that the Honse had passed the bill disr<'gard the terms upon which these grants were made, but that it (S. No. 774) to remove the political disabilities of Samuel Jones, of asks simply the consent of Congress to apply the surplus of the fund Virginia. . . . now in the treasury of .Alabama arising from the sale of swamp lands ENROLLED BILL SIGNED. to the colli:ltruction of an insane asylum. The message also announced that the Speaker pro temp01·e of the Mr. SHERMAN. In other words, it authorizes a repeal or modifica House had signed the enrolled bill (H. R. No. 3963) to amend subsec tion of the law by taking the money which is directed to be applied tions 246 and 251 of section 12 of an act entitled "An a.ct making ap to draining these lands, for some other purpose. These lands are propriations for the service of the Post-Office Department for the fiscal sold to private persons, and this condition runs along with the grant year ending June 30, 1875, and for other purposes," approved June to provide persons, and these private persons have at lea.st an equit 23, 187 4, and for other purposes, and also to ameud section 3!)54 of the able right to demand that the money they have paid for these Revised Statutes; and it was thereupon signed by the President pro lands shall be expended in reclaiming these very lands. The pro tempote. ceeds are to be applied for draining as far as necessary. So no ques CAPTAIN EDWARD S. MEYER. tion could arise except in the event of the fund being larger than the sum necessary to drain the lands. · Mr. LOGAN. I am directed by the Committee on Military Affairs, Mr. D.A.WES. I do not know that I quite understand the Senator to whom was referrred the bill (H. R. No. 36) to restore the name of from Ohio. Am I to understand him to say that the O'SY'nera of this Captain Ed ward S. Meyer to the active list of the Army, to report it land have an 'equitable right to any of the money which lies overT with an a-mendment. Mr. SHERMAN. I never said such a thing as that. I sa.,id that the Mr. SHERMAN. I hope the Senate will pass that bill at once. It owners of the lands, the persons to whom the State sold these lands, is a small matter for a gallant officer. have the equitable right to demand that the State should expend the By unanimous consent, the bill (H. R. No. 36) to restore the name money received for them for the very purpose pointed out by the act of Captain EdwardS. Meyer to the active list of the Army was con of Congress, because that obligation on the part of the State to ex sidered as in Committ.,e of the Whole. peud the proceeds is an obligation which attaches throughout. The amendment of the Committee on Military Affairs was to insert Mr. DAWES. Tho condition that the Senator from Indiana [Mr. at the end of the bill the following proviso : · McDoNALD] suggested would be a condition where there would be a Provided; That the time that he has been on the retired list shall not be counted surplus after the lands were drained. in his servioo in giving promotion. Mr. SHERMAN. There is no pretense of a surplus in any case, and The amendment was agreed to. this bill 1876. ,CONGRESSIONAL RECORD~SENATE. Lt913 folding their arms careless of results, saying "We are but in sport." one -fourth, or one-t.enth, or anything at all for branches of the pub The consular system is self-sustaining; it draws no money from your lie service existing by law, anrl that the House should recede from its Treasury. It is more than self-sqstaining; it contributes of its funds proposition to change the law into something else. That was rejected. to the support of your Government by the moneys which are gath- It ought to be said, however, that in respect to this proposition • ered into the Treasury, and this bill in instance after instance where that applied to all these various ways of getting at it, for a commis consulates are requisite for the purpose of certifying manifests and sion to inquire, the House conferees said they were willing to have discharging a variety of duties devoLving upon them by law, abol- a commission to inquire, but ·as a condition to that there must be in ishes them. It is a recklessness in the treatment of the commercial this bill the provision that the law should stand as changed, chang affairs of this country that challenges and demands the attention of ing the salaries, abolishing the offices that the House did not think this body. When you pass from that and go to the diplomatic por- were right, until the two Houses hereafter should agree to make it tion of it, it proposes to send your agents to foreign governments otherwise. In other words, the proposition on the part of the House upon terms and conditions that shall be a reproach to this country. is, "We will change the law now blindly," because they had no facts Time after time this bill is to go to a conference committee headed as to 'Offer us respecting any one of these points, for we took them up are other committees by men who may justly be denominated in pol- on some of the items as leading and test ones; they had no facts to itics the Titus Oates and the William Bedloe of the day. Is it not offer except the general talk, which we all agree to, that everybody time for this body to say what we will do f We wa.nt, we demand, ought to be economica.l. They say" You are now to take this change our duties require t,hat a bill providing for your consulates and for of the law and make the law say that the present sums appropriated the diplomatic service should be passed. Why not adhere to our vote shall be the law of salaries and be the law of places of public service and let this enormity diet I suppose all Senators like myself will be in foreign countries until afterward we find out that we are wrong/· glad to get away from this heated plaee; I suppose we shall get away In other words, "We will change the law now without any definite if we live long enough. Now, in the line of duty and in the line of reason, and if by and by we can find a good reason for believing that economy I hold that it is about time to adhere to our vote upon this it ought to be changed back again, we will change it." That ap bill and let it die the death of the unrighteous, aud then let the House peared to the Senate conferees not to be a proposition which waa just, understand what is the posi1.ion that we mean to occupy if we do philosophic, or lo~ical. I cannot properly use any more expressive mean to occupy it; at least let us know what we shall do one with phrase with the h1gh respect we hold and are boand to hold for the the other, and then let a bill appropriate, a bill that shall be com- · House of Representatives. mensurate with the dignity and character of this great Republic in What is to be gained by further conference T We are told that this foreign lands andonewhich the just demands of commerce require at is the fixed attitude of the House of Representatives. We have not our hands be originated and sent to us. I think, sir, I will not submit declined to go into an inquiry in respect of any of these items; quite the motion now, but if the thing ever comes back I will make a mo- the reverse. When it is proposed that the mission to Great Britain, tion to adhere and vote for that motion if no other Senator shall vote for instance, shall be reduced in point of compensation from one sum with me. to another, which is the proposition of the Honse, we call for the Mr. EDMUNDS. I did not know that this report wa.s to be made facts and statistics upon which it is founded and we do not get any, at the present time or I should have been present and had something but we are aaked to reduce it now, to change the la.w now and in to say. I a good deal agree with whJ.t the Senator from Maine has quire afterward whether we have done a wise or a foolish thing. said. We have had three conferences already upon this bill, and cer- Onr idea was that the true business of legislation was to inquire be tninly the last orie has failed on the didtinct issue of whether the fore you change the law whether the change will be wise or foolish. Senate of the United States shall be compelled, whether it believes Of course it is perfectly obvious to ever~ody that it is totally im it to be right or not, to change the laws of the United States as the possible in any just legislative sense for the conferees on a bill be price of having the House of Representatives agree that any money tween the two Houses or anybody on an appropriation bill properl.f shall be spent for the public service at all. Every possible method and fairly to have the time and the means to look into the various of proposing to the Honse of Representatives-which, I presume, the items and see where the public expenditures can be properly reduced; Senator from New Jersey has explained-the means of fair inquiry and upon that ground it was that we proposed this inquiry, leaving into the state of the service and the giving to each House its own the law to stand as it is until we.can find good reasons to change it, independent rights and of providing, where the Houses cannot agree, and if we should find good reasons to change it, then have the change that that House should recede which proposed something new, haa take effect. In that way nothing could be lost. That was rejected. been exhausted. I do not think that the ingenuity of man can con- What are we to gain by any new conference f Where are we to trive any new way of proposing to the House through its conferees stancl! As I say, the essential dispute, when you strip it of its flounces a method of adjusting this subject that has not been proposed short and furbelows and look at it in putis naturalibus, is simply this, that of taking the broad step across the line, as waa urged upon us by the the House of Representatives claim that the Senate has no constitu Rouse conferees, and saying tha.t the provisions of law regul::l.ting tional business to disagree to changes in existing laws that the House salaries or any other branch of the public service that directly in- of Representatives chooses to demand respecting the expenditure of volved the expenditure of money belonged of right, some said con- public money. Therefore, if it were left to me alone, I should quite stitutionally of right, and others said of real and philosophic right, agree with my honorable friend from Maine, that the present duty of to the House of Representatives, and tha.t the Senate would be vio- the Senate, not so much to itself as to the country and to futurity, lating its duty to resist any change in the law that the House of Rep- would be to recede from every one of its amendments that has in resentatives demanded that affected the expenditure of public money. creased sums, for the House conferees said over and over again tha.t We have come down by inevitable steps and processes to a disagree- they would not put them np, and to adhere ~the strictest sense-be ment, I believe every time, certainly this time, upon that identical cause it comes to a question of right andrwthing else-to those amend proposition. menta of ours which struck out the House propositions to change the The Senate conferees proposed to the House conferees first, through existing law. That leaves the responsibility on the other body that our honorable chairman, if the House thought the total of the money has assumed it to determine what it will do. But I do not feel au they had appropriated for this purpose was sufficient for the public thorized to make a motion of that kind now, because that requires a service, to say "we will grant this sum as a total, leaving it to be ex- little detail. pended in the discretion of the President of the United States for the Mr. SARGENT. Will the Senator excuse an interruption f I do best interests of the public good, limited by existing provisions of law, not know that I understand my friend exactly. He says that he the law of a year ago in appropriations to the objects, no new ones, would advise that we should recede from all the amendments by which for the purposes, no new ones, and in the amounts, no new ones, pro- we increased the amounts appropriated in the items of the bill and vided by the pre-existing appropriations." The only discretion under insist upon retaining t,he laws as they are. I do not see the applica that proposition left to the President would be to discontinue various tion exactly. For instance, take the case of the mission to England. branches of the diplomatic and consular service in order that out of The House bill reduced it from one amount to another by reducing the money he had he might carry on those that are most important. the appropriation. Now if the Senate· recedes, we leave it at the less That was rejected. amount and it stands as the sn.Iary, which is a change of the law. Then it was proposed that the Senate would take the sum appro- Mr. EDMUNDS. Not at all. There may be a snm of money due to a priated specifically by the House of Representatives for the specific man as a salary and the two Houses may not appropriate half what object, although it did not cover what the law required, and would the law requires; they may not appropriate anything at alL The agree, and would not only agree but were desirous, as all the Senate House of Representatives might refuse to insert an item, and so pass is, that every branch of the public service shall be inquired into a bill, for any salary· at all to the President of the United States a~d and economized where justice allows; that there should be a joint when it came over here if we pnt in an item of that kind for the sat committee to inquire into all this consular and diplomatic service, to ary of the President of tha United States and the House say they report at the next session, and if on reporting at the next session the will not agree to it what can we do about itt Nothing at all. They two Houses should be of opinion that reductions could be made, offices are responsible not to us bot to the Constitution and to the people, dispensed with, such reductions and abolishments of offices should and they take the consequences as they have a right to do of that have relation to this present year, so that in that case no possible sort of action. detriment could happen to the public service. That wa-s rejected. Mr. SARGENT. The Senator thinks the matter would be reached ·Then the Senate conferees proposed that they would recommend by that and by adhering to our amendments refusing to change the that the Senate should recede from every one of its amendments in- law in the latter part of the bill providing that these sums shall be creasing appropriations upon the ground that the House had a right in full. Is tha.t the ideaf to take the responsibility if it thought it just, or if it did not it had Mr. EDMUNDS. This bill contains two phases. One,.the first part .the right to take the responsibility of appropriating only one-ha;tf, or of it, is the ordinary phase of appropriating money to carry out ex- IV-308 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JULY 2S, isting laws. The Honse confessedly has not appropriated money stopped to ask the House conferees, whether the change in the salary enough to carry out the existing laws. Where the existing laws call of the mission to Great Britain wni wi e dr unwise, was fair or U!l for 17,500, the House of Representatives has said-and has stuck to fair, wa.s honest or dishonest, but it is their standing practice to re it in the committees of conference-" We will only give 14,000." fuse even to consider for a single moment any propo1:1ition of that Then, at the end of the bill, or as an addition to it-it does not make kind. We have not insisted upon doing that, although, if the theory • any difference where it comes in the bill-they make one general and of the House were carried out as to their relations to what these gen sweep,ing declaration that "the sums herein appropriated shall be in tlemen call money bills, very unadvisedly as I think, we should do full; ' in other words, that the salaries and provisions and everything the same thing, and then the result would be exactly the same as else as provided for in this bill shall be the law. that which I have supposed; only in this instance we have asked the Now, my proposition is not one that I am quite sure I ought to gentlemen on the part O'f the House to point out to us .by fact and make at this time, although, acting on my own judgment, upon my statistics and inquire why it is that these changes in the law that own sense of my duty to the Constitution, to the country, to econ they propose ought to be made, and we are answered by the state omy, to honesty, to self-respect, to everything that appeals to a jnst ment that there is a. general time of public distress and a general man intrusted with responsible duties, I should say that our duty is time of necessity for economy. Well, sir, there is a general time of now, after all that has happened, to declare to the Honse of Repre public distress in a certain sense, and there always ought to be a gen sentatives, "We cannot compel you and we do not claim the right eral time of economy. There is no time that is so prosperous that a to compel yon to appropriate a dollar more money than you like, government that expects to stand forever and be pure can afford to whether the law calls for it or not; we therefore, after all that has be otherwise than economical. It is not the business of any govern taken place, take the money yon propose and recede from every ment that I know of, any government of ours, either state or national, proposition of ours to increase the sums up to the law." Then, when to be otherwise than economical at any time. If the people have any it comes to the other provision of making a new law as to what va money to spend, outside of the trust they repose in it, in luxury and rious persons are entitled to and whether establishments shan be enjoyment, it is their affair, and they can spend it in their private kept up or not, then, I say, we have reached t.he point where the Sen capacities; but when the time comes that the Republic is to engage ate owes it to itself-which is the least thing personally-owes it to in the business of spending money otherwise than economically, it the Constitution, owes it to the people, to the Republic, owes it to will be a bad day for the Republic in my opinion, for it will lead to economy and retrenchment, to say, "\Ve adhere to our amendment re corruption in the greatest degree and to all the consequences that jecting from your bill propositions to make a new law that yon have follow corruption. So, then, the real question is not whether we given us no reason for making, whether on an appropriation bill or ought to be economical now or at any other time. We all ought to any other." If it were a bill by itself to change the establishment at be; we all strive to be. It has not been reserved to this session of Great Britain, everybody would agree, even the House of Represent Congress to try to be economical. If members in the other branch atives possibly would agree, if they sent us a bill by itself saying will look into the history of legislation in the last ten years, they will that hereafter the salary of the establishment at Great Britain should find that both democrats and republicans in both Houses have ear only be $14,000 or $10~goo, or any other sum, and that the hire of an nestly devoted themselves in appropriation bills and in other bills af office should only be ~00 or any other sum, if. we did not agree to it fecting the public service to reduce expenditures to the lowest proper that would be the end of it. But it seems to be imagined that be limit, and they have done it from time to time, and they are no doubt cause it is put into an appropriation bill-the very place it ought not equally desirous to do it again. to be, because it is impossible in an appropriation bill covering va But, Mr. President, economy bas its limits. There is no ground for rious branches of the service to have fair inquiry-the Senate must saying that economy shall be turned into robbery; there is no ground take it, hit or miss, right or wrong; that that is the true constitu for saying if you are to employ a man to perform a certain duty in tional authority; and it is upon that ground that we disarrreed. the public service that you will give him only half the money that is How does that leave us ' It leaves us in this attitude: The House necessary to sustain him in performing that service and leave him to of Representatives cannot be compelled-it is not obliged, so far as beg or steal for the residue. I hope there is no part of the people of we are concerned-we have no right to demand and we do not demand the United States who are in favor of that sort of economy, as it is that it shall vote a single dollarofthe public money for any purpose sometimes called. So the real question was taking these first mis that it does not choose to vote. If it refuses to vote anything for the sions whether there was any ground to believe at all that the just de foreign service, anything for the salary of the President or of the mand of the public duty to be done would be properly performed, judges of the Supreme Court or any other officers, we cannot help it. prudently, economically, modestly, in the most rigid sense, for less It is no business of ours. We may attempt by a conference to per than the sums named by existing law; and our honorable gentlemel). suade it, to appeal to its reason, and to induce it by reason to fulfill representing the other House had no facts to offer. It was only a gen its constitutional duty; but, if it does not see it in that light, our mis eral impression that it was a good time to slice in the knife every sion is ended and it takes its own responsibility to that just public where and trust to future inquiry to a-scertain whether we had been sentiment which over a large number of years is always conect and committing a wrong or doing a right. to that dne preservation of the independence and purity of the Gov But, as I said, Mr. President, the thing is whittled down-to use a ernment by the independence of its several branches and refuses to northwestern expression-it is really brought down to the disagree appropriate if it sees fit. We cannot do anything about it. As I ment of the two Houses, radical, earnest, decisive, on this simple say, we have exhausted argument; we have ex.l.lausted experiment. question, whether it is the duty of the Senate, under the Constitution There is nothing left to us, in my judgment, under the Constitution justly considered, to yield its judgment and to follow legislation pro and under our sense of duty, but to say : "You will give no more posed by the House of Representatives, without any reason, in chang money than this; very well, we accept it; but when you ask that ing existing laws, in reducing salaries, and abolishing places. The w-e shall make a new law and declare that this money shall cover same principle of comse would apply if it were reversed and the every branch of this service and shall pay every demand upon it, and House of Representatives had demanded that we should increase sal that no person hereafter shall have any right to have any more, and aries and provide new offices and new places, and then we should be that this mission and that consulate and the other shall be abolished, told in the same way and in the same spirit "the Senate has no busi we have no right to accede to that for the sake of getting anything, ness to a conscience or a judgment or an intelligence of its own; the uv.less we are satisfied that such accession is right." Why, Mr. Presi House of Representatives represent the people; they are the persons dent, taking the question as it is presented by the House'of Repre whose judgment alone is entitled to any weight." That is the sentatives throu'*h its conferees and a{}mittin~, for the sake of trying point; and that being the point, I am myself in favor of considering their case, what 1s otherwise absurd, in violatiOn of the language of before we agree to any new conference what course the Senate ought the Constitution, in violation of the history of its formation, in vio to take; and I appeal to my honorable friend from New Jersey to lation of common sense and public security, to be true, still we should allow this matter to lie on the table until we can reflect upon it. find ourselves, on their own ground, taking this to be a money bill, Mr. SAULSBURY. Before the Senator from New Jersey yields to as they call it, in the strictest common-law and parliamentary sense; that I think some reply ought to be made to remarks that are indulged and if we followed out our theory as it is followed out in Great Brit in from time to time on conference reports reflecting on the action of ain, we should do exactly what the House of Lords would do on a the House of Representatives. I think it is very unfortunate that similar occasion: we should have rejected on sight-that is the very there should be disagreements between the two Houses in reference phrase-rejected on sight every one of these amendments which to the appropriation bills, but they sometimes occur; they have oc change the law. In the time of Charles II the House of Commons curred in the previous history of the country and they will occur undertook to imagine that on money bills in the English sense-call again, I presume, in the future history of the country; but I do not them revenue bills, if you plea-se, about which there ·is no dispute think the occurrence of a disagreement should be made the occasion they had a right to originate, and, more than our Constitution for a criticism on the part of one Honse in reference to the action of provides, had a right to say should not be altered-they had the the other. right to put legislation and tack their hills, as .the English phrase is, Now, in reg~rd to this particular bill, I am not sure that I agreo at upon them in order to ride them through the House of Lords because all with the House of Representatives in reference to tho payments the government could not go on without providing the supply bills to be made to our principal missions abroad; but I have no hesitation and money bills, the taxes, &c., which usually in the same bills were in expressing my opinion that there are many consulates and minor -provided as to their expenditure. What happened from that f After positions that could be abolished without any serious detriment·to a little the House of Lords adopted a standing order, which exists to the country. But what I rose principally to say was that the House this day if I am not misinformed, to reject every provision in a money of Representatives is a co-ordinate branch of the legislative depart bill, without inquiry into its merits at all, that was of a legislative ment, and as such is entitled to its judgment in r-eference to what character, as we express it. They would not stop to ask, as we have shall be tho measure of compensation paid foreign ministers ~:p.d con- • i876. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 4915 suls as the Senate of the United States, and that because the House and truer sentiment of the House represented in another conference. differs with the Senate that fact furnishes no ground for the severe Mr. HOWE. Mr. President, I heard of a Scotchman once who finding criticisms that are frequently indulged whenever an occa-sion is pre himself upon his death-bed was told that he must forgive his enemies, sented by the report of a disagreement between the two Houses ill and he said if he must he would, but he left his curse to his son if he reference to any of the appropriation bills. would forgive them. [Laughter.] Standing in the presence of a The House of Representatives are not captiously striking for econ rule of courtesy which ha.s heretofore and which I hope will hereafter omy, as is represented. animate and to a certain extent guide the intercourse of these two Mr. EDMUNDS. I hope the Senator does not allude to me. I have Houses, I am willing for one to refrain a little longer from putting not represented that they were captious about anything; far from it. on your record a vote adhering to the position the Senate has already ·I undertook to say, and I thought I did say so that nobody couldmis taken upon this bill; but in order to be perfectly explicit and intelli undenta.nd me, that the House of Representatives was perfectly en gible I want to say to the next committee of conference that the Sen titled, according to its .own judgment and absolutely independent of ate shall appoint that if they do not in fact adhere to that very posi ours, to say that it will not appropriate anything if it wanted to; and tion I shall be disposed to leave anathemas to them hereafter or to I merely said, on the other hand, that the Senate was equally entitled pile them up at once. to say on its conscience and judgment that it would not change the Mr. SARGENT. We cannot hear the Senator. law till it could see a reason for doing so. Mr. HOWE. I say that although I am willing to forego a little Mr. SAULSBURY. I am not charging the Senator from Vermont longer the vote to adhere, I shall expect the next committee of con or any other Senator with using the word "captious;" but it cannot ference in fact to adhere to the position which the Senate has already have escaped the attention of the Senate that the whole tenor of the maintained, and that for two reasons, one of which I do not lay much debate has been a severe criticism on the action of the House of Rep- stress upon. That one is that you are required to make reductions in . resentatives. That, I think, no one will deny. They have been held salaries now appointed by law, which salaries I do not myself think up as striking blindly and wildly for economy when there was none are too high; and for that reason I do not wish the Senate to acquiesce cessity. The Senator from Vermont will not deny that point. I think in the demand made upon it. But then I know very well that you there is great necessity for economy, and I think that the House of might reduce these salaries to the extent demanded, and yet you might Representatives has shown a commendable spirit in this regard. The maintain a sort of service; the couritry would not be ruined if you people of the country are paying taxes to this Government, heavy acquiesced in this demand, and so I do not care so much about this and oppressive taxes, while the business interests of the country, it particular point. There is another reason more imperative than this, is admitted, are paralyzed to a very considerable extent. I think, why the Senate should not acquiesce in this demand, and It was said on the. other side of the House the other day that the that is the moment you do it you have destroyed the Senate. You agricultural interests of the country were never more flourishing have no Senate when you have acquiesced in this demand, no such than at the present time. It happens to be my fortune to have some Senate as the Constitution provides for, a co-ordinate body in the interest in some poor land. I know, therefore, from my own expe legislature. That Senate will not survive such a vote. We are told, rience what is the condition of the agricultural interest. Your ce in almost as inany words as these, that unless you re-adjust certain reals to-day are not worth more than half what they were worth a salaries at a certain figure the appropriations now demanded by law few years ago; and w~ the crops may he as abundant as formerly, shall not be ·made. It is always proper for either House of Congress yet they are unreml1llerative because of the condition of the country, to propose a re-adjustment of salaries, an increaae or a decrease of and because of the want of remuneration in the prices paid for agri sala.ries, and when any such proposition is made by one House or the cultural products. . I think there never was a time when there was other, it is always proper for the other House to consider the propri-: greater oppression of the agricultural interest of the country than ety of the new measure and acquiesce in it or reject it, as its judg at the present time; and that is true of every other interest. It is ment, ancl not as its fears, may direct; and that House or that Senator true of the manufacturing interest; it is true of the commercial in or that Representative who refuses to acquiesce in any such proposi terest; and in this condition of affairs in this land it becomes the tion always does so upon a certain responsibility; and that responsi: representatives of the people to look carefully to economy. The bility is that he may meet aud will be likely to meet the rebuke of House of Representatives have only obeyed the high behests of the his constituents if his judgment does not coincide with theirs. Now, people they represent in seeking to economize as they have upon all the House ha-s proposed a re-adjustment of certain salaries in this bill. • the bills. They may have gone too far. I do not say theyhavenot. '!'he Senate has already suffi~iently indicated by its vote that its judg I do not say that they have not made mistakes. "To err is human." ment does not coincid.e with this measure, does not approve of it. We But the conference committees ought to reconcile and adjust these have indicated that over and over again. We have made a record differences without animadversion on the part of one House toward complete and perfect against ourselves. If our jucl~ments mislead us, the other. In reference to the legislative provisions incorporated in the evidence is complete; we can be arraigned at the bar of the peo- . this bill, I believe that that kind of legislation is vicious. I have pie, and judgment can be demanded any day. I am ready to listen always believed so, and since I have been in the Senate I have op to that judgment myself. Having. thus exposed our judgments, our posed measures of that kind; but the House of Representatives had defective judgments, laid those bare before the people, 1t seems to before them the illustrious example that had been set for several me the House is now practicing on our nervous system, seeing how years. The most obnoxious measures have been incorporated upon far it can operate on our fears. Now we are told that unless our wills appropriation bills, and they have .passed the Senate and passed the give way, no matter about your judgments, unless our wills give way House of Representatives and become the law of the land without and we assent to those salaries, we can have no appropriations. the severe criticism upon them which is now indulged in because the Well, sir, I hope the Senate will exhibit on this trying occasion, what House of Representatives see proper on appropriation bills to deter ever may be said of its judgment, a sound nervous system. If we are mine the question, of the amount to be paid to our consuls and min afraid, I hope we shall not advertise that fear. If there is any cow isters abroad. ardice here, let us keep it to ourselves, and not spread it on the record. Mr: President, I cannot and do not willingly sit still and hear these Mr. President, I think that if we were induced to a~quiesce in a criticisms against the co-ordinate branch of the legislative depart measure which our judgment did not approve by the threat that ap ment of the Government when we believe they are actuated by a propriations should not be made, the Senate would no longer exist as proper spirit of economy and a desire to relieve the people from the a co-ordinate body of the Legislature. oppressions and burdens under which they have been laboring for Mr. EATON. Has there been any such threat, or do you assume some.years. that there has been T Which f Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. President, I agree with what waa Mr. HOWE. I perhaps assume it; I have not hea.rd it in so many said by the Senator from Maine [Mr. IIAMLIN] as to the importance words. of our consular system to our commerce and the importance of our .Mr. SARGENT. I suppose it would be improper to read from the diplomatic system to the honor of the nation; and it is because I so debates and proceedings of the House of Representatives, and there f:olly appreciate t,he truth of all that he said that I as one member of fore my friend from Wisconsin cannot answer the question. But if the conference committee was reluctant to omit any expedient to pre he were allowed to answer the question, he could furnish materials vent this bill from failing. I agree with what my friend from Ver to answer it and show that such a threat has been made. mont [Mr. EDMUNDS] has said, that no future conferees on the part Mr. HOWE. I understand the attitude of the House to be, no mat of the Senate can make any more acceptable proposition than has ter what its words may be, a threat. The law to-day tells the House \)een made, I do not care from which side of this Chamber you take of Representatives to appropriate so much money to each of these them. We have exhausted our ingenuity in trying to accommodate salaries. That is the law to-day; and they do not do it. They have this matter ; for I take it for granted that no Senator can agree that a reason m· they have not. What reason under Heaven can they as the two legislative branches of this Government are not co-ordinate sign but that they expect, by holding out and refusing to meet this .· and equal. That is the point. duty, to compel the Senate to change these salaries, so that less money As to what my friend from Delaware [Mr. SAULSBURY] says about will be required f Their attitude is a threat, no matter what their economy, we have offered to adopt just the House appropriations, to language is. They might just as well hold a club np over the heads recede from every amendment increaaing those appropriations, they of the conference committee or over the heads of the Senate; it would receding from their amendments changing the laws; and that is re be no more nor less a. threat tha.n is this action. jected. Why1 then, do I move that the Senate insist and ask another Now, sir, you and I know that when our Constitution was formed conference instead of adhering and terminating this dispute T For there was a great deal of difficulty in the convention about adjust this reason: I believe that there is a better sentiment in the House ing the precise measure of authority that each State should have in of Representatives than haa been represented on the conference com the new Government. They all saw at once that the absolute sover mittee, and I would give them this opportunity of having that better eignty of each of the States had got to be given up, that a new gov- ; JULY 4916 OONGRESSIONAL . REOORD-SENATE. 28 1 ernment was to be framed which upon certain subjects should be an that could be allowed under those circumstances as a method of · authority supreme over that of any State. It was a very important legislation or as a principle of legislation wb.ich is not right when question whether each State should have precisely the same authority the two Houses difl'er in political sentiment. 'What is the result of in the new Government, or whether the authority of each State in the such an argument f It is that the right or wrong, the expediency new Government should be in precise proportion to the number of its or the contrary, the justice or the contrary of legislatioH. shall depend people; and to reconcile those provisions was a work of no little diffi upon the accidental party sentiment o.f the relative branches of Con culty. You know how it was finally adjusted by a most ingenious gress. That will never do. We cannot say so. It is a matter of compromise, the compromise being this: that in one Honse of Con fact plainly and practically before us that for the first time in six gress, in one branch of the legislative department, the measure of au teen years the two parties relatively of the two Houses of Congress thority possessed by the States should be in precise proportion to the differ a'S to the majority of sentiment in each House. It could not be number of their people, and that in the other branch of the legisla expected that the smooth flow of power which ha-s passed '>nun tive department the measure of authority of the different States should checked between members of the same party in the two Houses be precisely equal. This happens to be that branch of the legislative should not meet witb some cbeeck when for the first tinie in this ·department. Here the States have been accustomed to feel that long period a difference of party complexion arises between the two they had the best security for their rights a-s States. I never was my Houses. It cannot be that this dift'erence of party complexion can be self what is called a State-rights man, or politician, or statesman, or made the basis of a sound argument in favor of that being wrong to lawyer. I n~ver saw anything in the right of a State any more sa day which you have admitted in the· past to be right and proper. cred as such than the right of a man. I think myself that human Wben I say admitted to be right and proper, I mean not without in rights are quite as sacred a-s political rights; but I never saw the dividual exception, I myself o.nd perhaps others, perhaps the honor hour when I would not stand by and defend every right which this able Senator from Vermont-- Constitution creates, whether it is on behalf of a man or on behalf of Mr. EDMUNDS. Always. a State. The men who made the Constitution did agree, if they Mr. BAYARD. I have been one of those who have constantly dep agreed to anythieg, that in one branch af Congress each State should recated the ingrafting of general legislation upon a mere money bill. have t,he same number of representatives, and that no statute should I ha"\Te said so often that I have tired of my constant defeat on al be put upon your book unless that branch of Congress wherein the most every measure which I have tried to support here; but I have States were evenly and equally represented should agree to it. We not ceased to object to this practice. I have asked again and again are told now, at this late day, by the popular branch of Congress that that an appropriation bill should be in substance what it was in appropriations must stop or that this branch of Congress must snr; name-the appropriation of money to carry into effect existing laws; render it:B independent judgment; and strange to say, if I may be and yet what have we seen, or I may almost ask what have we not allowed to say so, that demand comes to us from that school of poli seen t What principle, what subject of general legislation bas not tics (I am glad to know, not representing all of them by any manner boon amended and touched under the form of appropriation lawsf I of means) which has heret.ofore made the loudest boast of being the have seen the qnestien of evidence to be brought into courts of jus champions of State rights. To-day, I think the man is the staunch tice, invading principles well known to the common-law history of est champion of the rights of States who stands up for the independ our country, entirely changed by an amendment to an appropriation ence of that branch of the Legislature in which the States have an bill. I have seen rights of liberty most dear under the Constitution equal voice. and sacred in all history suspended by an amendment in an appro Therefore I shall be very sorry, Mr. President, if any committee of priation bill. In fact it would be difficult to find any subject of gen conference appointed by the Senate shall be found to shrink one eral legislation that to a greater or less degree has not been in grafted inch from the attitude which I understand ha-s been maintained in upon appropriation bills by the two Houses during the last fifteen this great debate up to this hour. years. It is an unwise and vicious frame of legislation, but surely • Mr. BAYARD. Mr. President- yon are not to put an end to it without some degree of modification Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. At the request of the Senator from Ver or notice. It was not to be presumed because a majority of the other mont I am perfectly willing to let the matter lie on the table. I do House were suddenly discovered to be gentlemen of an opposite po not want to interrupt the Senator from Delaware, however. litical party that therefore the whole custom which had hardened Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like it to lie on the table a short t.ime, into law by a-cquiescence was suddenly to be put an end to. It cer but not to interfere with my friend from Delaware if he wishes t.o tainly should be done with notification. As I have expressed in for • speak. mer times, I am exceedingly desirous that we should by clear and Mr. BAYARD. I desire to express in as fewwords as possible bow positive authority, by a joint rule or by an unwritten law of practice sincerely I deprecate the tone of this debate upon the part of those to be created, have the understanding that appropriation bills shall who seem to object to the further proceeding of conference between be money bills, that they shall be in fact what they are in name. Wo the two Houses in relation to the differences upon this bill. It does have in our own rules prohibitions upon amendments t.o appropria seem to me that to meet a proposition for an amicable conference for tion bills1 signifying a proper current of decision on this subject. We the purpose of adjusting conscientious differences between the two except amendments of di1ferent kinds unless they have the approval co-ordinate branches of the legislative department of this Govern of some bead of a Department or the recommendation of a standing ment, by an arra_ignment of motive, by a denunciation of intent, by committee. All those things are meant as restrictions upon the gen a reference to political schools, is to say the least exceedingly unfavor eral flood of amendments that might rush in upon an appropriation able to that end for which conferences were designed and which I bill and completely change its tone and character. I am very willing trust the present one may reach. I have been for the last two weeks to see, and hope I may see a successful regulation adopted mutually a member of a conference committee on the part of the Senate, sin by the two Houses for that purpose; but I submit with all respect, cerely, ingenuously endeavoring to harmonize the views of the two looking at the history of the legislation of these two bodies for the branches upon an important bill. Had I entered that conference with la..st fifteen years, that yon should not announce now aa a simple prin any such suggestions on my mind as seem to exist in the mind of the ciple that which your constant practice baa been to violate. Do not honorable Senator from Wisconsin and others upon this broad sub suddenly and abruptly make this change, and do not place it upon ject of difference, I should have believed the task hopeless almost the ground beforehand that there is any intent to invade your priv before we entered upon it. But I believe, as in all cases of human ileges or your just duties and your obligations. I have not spoken difference, the very best preparation that a man can make in his nor do I propose to speak as to the expediency or otherwise of amend mind for success is to divest . it of suspicion that wrong is intended ments that are proposed for legislation that may COII.le from the other either upon one side or the other, but that there shall be as a con branch of Congress. They have their duties which they may exer dition-precedent to any arrangement of this kind a very positive cise in the light of their consciences. I have mine, and propose to exhibition of mutual respect and good-will. Not only is a question follow them with an equal dignity and I trust with an equal sense of personal feeling, of mere party feeling, unjust and detrimental, but of right. Before a committee of conference bad ever been asked upon I submit it is both undignified and unworthy. the first appropriation bill that came at the present session from the We are not here for a party end. We are not here for personal House, expressions were made from the Senator from California [Mr. ends. We are here to legislate for a great country and for masses of SARGENT] in which it seemed to me be stepped in advance, and people, much divided per.baps in local interest and certainly in indi haatened swiftly to moot some possible difference between the two vidual sentiment. Here upon a broad bill, a money bill, supplying Houses which had then not actually occurred. Before the bill was expenses for this common Government of our country, is it not pos considered, before they had their errors, if errors they be, pointed out sible that we shall treat it with the dignity and with the absence of to them by the action of the Senate, they were arraigned for attempt all personal and party feeling which such a question calls for f I will ing to cripple the Government, or some such phrase of railing accusa say that if I cannot go upon a committee of conference except a-s a tion was used. I then objected to that discussion. I thou~ht it partisan, I will not go at aU; I will ask to be excused; and I will neither conducive to good results nor healthful to good legislatiOn in plead my infirmity as the excuse; but believing that I can go upon anyway. committees to hear and judge fairly upon the merits of proposed dif In the present case we have differences, and those differences must ferences, therefore I am willing to give my services, feeble though be adjusted, I trust reasonably and with mutual respect. I do not they be, to such an end. . think that the suggestion of threat or of overpowering the will of Let me bore say that we cannot in an instant suddenly and ab the Senate, or of overpowering the judgment of the Senate can prop ruptly reverse and ignore the practice of these two Houses of Con erly be made. I have nothing to say nor do I care to look at what greSB in regard to legislation of a general character upon appropria has been said by individuals in another branch of the Government tion bills for the last fifteen years at least. It will not do to say upon the subject of this bill. I only feel that we have methods which because the p~ty sentiment of the two Houses was in accord, therefore I tr~st we shall pursue with dignity, and not only that but with some- r 1876. ' CONGRESSIONAL REOORD-SENATE. .4917 thing I think better for a good result, and that is the intent to settle and we respect it, to say whether you will appropriate anything or these great Government measures upon a basis of sound economy to not, and you must judge for yourselves .and we have no right other the Government, and of a mutually good understanding between the wise than by persuasion to interfere with your judgment at all ; we co-ordinate branches of the Government. therefore. will back out of our proposition to make the sums what Mr. EDMUNDS. Mr. President, I entirely agree to what the Sena the law requires and ask you to leav.e the law as it is until we can tor has last said, that we should have true economy, and that there find out that it ought to be changed." They say, "No, you must should be a due respect, a real respect, between the two branches of change the law or we will not appropriate anything;" (that is the ef Congress. I feel quite sure that nothing I have said has been in fect of it; that is not the language;) "you must take the bill as it opposition to that view. It is not a want of courtesy to the House is." What can we do then f What is the use of conferring any of Representatives after three conferences, and where the question further f It has come down, as I believe, to a mere question of prin in dispute is reduced to one of constitutional principle and power for ciple whether the Senate shall be compelled-! am not now speaking either House to say, "It is useless to confer any more; we have found of coercion-by a sense of its duty to assent to changing laws that out the precise point upon which one or the other of us must recede it finds no fact to justify it in dotng in order that any appropriation or we shall have no law." There is no want of respect in that course. shall be made to carry on the particular branch of Government men The time must come some day when that point will be reached. If tioned in the bill. Thn.t is all there is to it; and we have had three OJJ. this bill it had been a question of items, whether there should be conferences upon that question. The. Senate conferees have not so much for this branch of public expenditure and so ,much for an evinced any disposition to refuse to make any change for which even other, and the difference between the conferees had been one of space, a fair probabilit.y of good ground could be offered, because it is on an so to speak, the Senate saying one sum and the Honse another, where appropriation bill; but when the change proposed seems to us to be it was equally open to the discretion of both to have its own way, we utterly destitute of justice, or foundation, or economy, and we are might keep on conferring, although even then there must be an end ·then told by the House conferees'' You must not only take the change to it some time. . a-s to money, but you must make a new law that shall make that the Speaking :not as to what has occurred in the other branch, for I money that the law is to give for all time t.o come, until we find out have no right to do so and no disposition to do so, but speaking of that we are, wrong in this case of ours," and added to that tho state what I have a right and it is my duty to speak of, as one of the mem ment of the House conferees that on their construction of the Con bers of the committee on the part of the Senate, what took place in stitution it is our duty to yield to their judgment, it appears to me the conference, which we are bound to report to the Senate, and the that there is an end of any advantage in a conference and au end other conferees are bound to report to the House, I find tha-t the ques without any disrespect to the House of Representatives because every tion is what I have stated it to be, not as to whether there should be body will see on looking into the parliamentary law that it is no dis legislation on an appropriation bill. We have made no such point as respect to either House for the other at any time in its judgment to that in the conference of which I have been a member. Of course we say," We have considered this subject so perfectly that we must ad all deprecate it, as my friend does and as he knows I always have here on such cardinal points as this to our opinion, for everything is done, for I have uniformly resisted it; but in the present attitude of involved." the question the Senate conferees have stated distinctly to the gen That is the state of the case, and I think my friend, therefore, is tleman of the House, ''We waive the question whether this legisla not justified in intimating, a-s I infer he did in his observations, that tion ought to be in an appropriation bill entirely; admit that it ought there bad been anything of party, anything of want of courtesy, any to be there just as much as if it were an independent bill;" and that thing of disrespect or of obstinacy on the part of the Senate cnnferees certainly is the utmost extent to which anybody can admit it; put it in respect to this matter. I am glad to see (and I should not have on its true grounds of real merit or want of merit. Then the House referred to it at all but for what my friend has said) that although conferees say, "We want to change the law in this particular on this the Senate conference committee was made up of different parties, bill." We say, "Very well; we will waive the objection to its being there was the most perfect unanimity between us in respect of our on this bill; what are your grounds for changing the lawf" "W-ell, ultimate views and in respect of the reasons that we gave for them, so and so, and so and so." The Senate conferees, looking over the and that this conference, which has now been spoken of, instead of reasons, feel compelled on their consciences to say that the proposi being disrespectful to either House, was carried on under all the forms tion is entirely inadmissible. Their absolute duty is to say that they and in the substance of the utmost courtesy. It is a question of rad cannot a~ree to that proposition to change the law, because they do ical difference of opinion as to the rights of the two Houses in regard not see tnat there is either justice or true economy in it, all in per to changing laws or carrying out laws that involve expenditures for fectly good temper and good feeling, it being a mere intellectual com this purpose. parison of facts and of reasons. .Mr. HOWE. Mr. President, when I was on the floor just now I My friend, therefore, can have no ground to say that we are resist assigned such reasons as occurred to me why I thought the commit ing auy changes in the law because t.hey are in an appropriation bill. tees, all of them which may hereafter represent the Senate in confer: Although we entertain the same sentiments that my friend does, we ences with the other branch of the Legislature, should adhere to the have taken care, in view of the circumstances he ba-s alluded to, not position which the Senate hM already assumed. I spoke without to make any pomt about that, but to treat every one of these pro reflection, and may or may not have assigned proper reasons. Such visions providing for a new law just as we would treat it in a confer reasons a-s I did assign of course are open to criticism. The Senator ence upon a bill for that object alone. I am sure my friend would from Delaware, speaking immediately after, felt called upon to ani not ask anything more. · madvert upon the spirit in which I spoke, without adverting at all to Where are we then, Mr. President f We have come right down to the argument I used or attempted to use. I was not paying any par the simple point, taking as a type t.he first change proposed in the ticul{l,r attent]on just at the time to the spirit in which I spoke. Jt House bill about the four great missions, as they are called. The might have been well or ill conceived. I think if my friend from House conferees and their predecessors have said, "This ought to be Delaware will, however, consult the Constitut.ion, he will see that reduced from $17,500 to 14,000 · our reaBons for it are that there is a his jurisdiction is rather limited to' replying to facts, correcting facts, general necessity for economy/' We admit that there is a general correcting reasoning, which may be used here in the Senate, and necessity for economy, but we say "There is a difference between whenever be will perform that office for me he will not only oblige economy a.nd injustice, and it is not economy not to pay a public serv me but he will oblige my constituency in the State of Wisconsin. I ant whom you employ what is absolutely necessary to the due dis think he will agree himself that when it comes to the spirit or the charge of his duties. If you can show us any reasonable ground to temper in which! speak, he had better leave that to the State of Wis suRpect even that the sum which the law now fixes is greater than is consin to correct. They may or may not have difi'erent views from absolutely necessary for the due economical, prudent, modest dis his. I did not understand him to reply to a single one of the sug cllarge of his duties, then although it is in an appropriation bill, we gestions I made use of ; I do not know but that lle did; I did not say will gladly accede and will make a change." When you come down a word about the practice of putting general legislation on appropri to facts just as might be supposed in the way these things are car ation bills. I clo not think it ~he best place in the world for ~eneral rie.cl on between t.De two Houses, (I am not criticising either House legislation, but I know nothing in yourConstitution,nothing m your for it, it has always been done more or less,) we are not in a condi rules, which prohibits it. Therefore I did not make one single word tion to get at any facts. We do not know what the cost of the rent of objection against such legislation being proposed on any of these of a modest place for an American minister in London is. We do bills; and I did not dwell a minute by the watch on the other point not know how much it costs him in the most modest way to hire one that the legislation the House proposed was not satisfactory to me or two or three servants to sweep out his kitchen and cook his oat and had not yet been satisfactory to the Senate. The Senator, how meal gruel, if he is to live upon that. We have no means of making ever, did not take occasion to say that I was not correct in assuming the inquiry, and we propose to the other side, "We have no facts that there was an attempt to dragoon the Senate into legislation before us which enable us to do anything but guess, or jump in the which it did not appro-ve. I did assume that. I said we ought not dark ; let us mquire; let us have a joint committee, and if on inquiry to acquiesce in it. If I was wrong in that, if the assumption is we do ascertain that any one of these sums is too large, we will save groundless, I should be glad to have it pointed out; or if I was wrong the money from this day." The House conferees say, "No, we will in contending that we ought not to acquiesce in that attempt, let not do that." "What will you dof" we ask them. They say, "We that be pointed out; but I did not for a moment say that we should will take the Hom;e l)ill just as we have passed it; we will give no resist this legislation simply because it was proposed on an appropri more money or we will change the law." Then we say, "If that is ation bill. I was struck with the use which the Senator made of your attitude, we will recommend that the Senate recede from every that particular feature of the case. With his usual candor he ad one of ita proposals to carry the sums up to what the law now gives mitted that all such legislation is wrong and bas been wrong just so because it is your right, and we respect it, and your responsibility, far and just so long as republicans have indulged in it; and with l:tis 4918 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JULY 28, usual candor he did not admit that it was wrong while it wns prac oiled in political sentiment or not, whenever one House had a meas ticed by a party not the repub1ic::m party. I think myself it is rather ure which might be ·called a pet measure of the majority of that injudicious and irregular. It is only to be justified, if at all, by ex body, for that House to ingraft it upon a bill appropriating public ceptional circumstances when it is proposed either by one party or money for the regular uses of the Government for the very purpose the other; but I take no sort of exception to its being attempted on of insuring its adoption by the other House. That has been the very this bill, although it is not attempted by the party that I voted with object of it, and where it has not succeeded, where the two Houses last fall and is attempted by a party which I llave not determined to have not been agreed upon it, the legislation has often failed. The Sen vote with next fall. ate will well remember a case in which the incipient republican party Mr. MORTON. The point involved, I understand to be, and I think left for us an example in regard to this sort of legislation. Do we it ought to be very clearly expressed, that the salaries of ministers, not all know that in 1856 the House of Representatives ingrafted consuls, and other officers are fixed by general laws, laws that will upon the Army appropriation bill a provision that the Army should remain for all time unless amended, laws that do not expire at the not be used in the Territory of Kansas ; and do we not know that end of the year. The office of an appropriation bill, as I understand the House stood upon that, .in spite of the refusal of the Senate to it, is to make appropriations to meet the requirements of existing accept that provision in the law t ·what was the result T Both laws, and an appropriation bill runs but one year. If either House Houses adjourned without passing a bill for keeping the Army in should insist in an appropriation bill on changing the general law, active motion and sustaining it in its efficiency. either to increase or diminish a salary, and say to the other House, Mr. HARVEY. I think the Senator from Maryland is mistaken in "Unless you agree to this change of the general law we will make that statement. I think that the House ultimately receded from its no appropriation at all, we will stop·the wheels of the Government," position on that bill. · I understand that to be coercion. That is what in law is called du Mr. WHYTE. No; I have read the message of the President of the -ress. It is an argument not of persuasion, but of danger to the Gov United States recalling Congress after it had adjourned without pass ~rnment, a threat to stop the wheels of government. If both Houses ing any Army appropriation bill at all. The House of Representa agree to make a change of the general law in an appropriation bill, tives then, with the republican party in its incipiency, before it had it may be improper legislation, bad practice, I agree, b•t still there thrown off its swaddling-clothes_and become the great power that we is no coercion about it; while if one House changes the general law have since seen it in this country, planted in a bill for the pay of the and says to the other House, "If you do not agree to the change of officers and soldiers of the Army of the United States a piece of legis the general law there shall be no appropriation at all, the forei~!l lation preventing the President from using that Army in the Tenitory ministers shall not be paid at all, the consuls shall not be paid at au, of Kansas, and both Houses adjourned without passing the bill. The unless you agree to this change," that is coercion. That is unconsti President convened Congress again, and on the 31st of August the bill tutional, and no free government can be carried on upon that prin passed bot~ Houses without the proviso that had been put upon it by ciple. the House of Representatives. Mr. EATON. Will my friend allow me to ask him a question t I will. cite another memorable exaJ1!ple. In 1865 Hon. Henry Win Mr. MORTON. Yes, sir: ter DaVIB then one of the leaders of the great party in power in this Mr. EATON. Is such a change of the law unconstitutional when country, having a majority in both branches of the Legislature, put the two Houses agree politically and undertake to coerce another upon the bill for the sundry civil expenses of the Government, an branch of the Government, the President of the United States t appropriation bill, a proviso that no mm\e citiz·ens of the United States Mr. MORTON. We cannot coerce the President. The President should be tried by court-martial in States where the courts of the may refuse to sign the bill. We can never tell in advance whether Uni.ted States were iu full operation. What was the result of that 7 he will sign a bill or not. Both Houses always have to take the risk Why was it put on t It w.as put on, on the principle I have stated, to in regard to a bill, whether the President will sign it or not. But I insure its passage through the Senate of the United States. That is do not wish any escape from the precise point. If both Houses agree not all. When the conference committee came together-and I have to the change of the general law, there is no coercion about it; but in my eye one of the Senators who was a conferee at that time-they if one House refuses and the other House says, "If you do not agree agreed, if I remember correctly, on every disagreement except the tp it, we will have no appropriations; we will call home our foreign one in regard to the trial by court-martial. The report was made to ministers ; we will break up the diplomatic and consular service," both Houses tha-t the conferees had agreed upon every question that that, I take it, is coercion; it is unconstitutional; and a Government had led to the conference except upon the provision requiring trials like this cannot be carried on upon that principle. I am not saying before the courts where citizens were arrested. Let us see what Mr. that the House of Representatives has put itself in that position, but Davis said about it: I say, if it does p-q.t itself in that position, it violates the fundamental Under these circumstances, it remained for a m~ority of the House committee principle of a government consisting of two I{ouses. to determine between the great result of losing a-n important appropriation bill , Mr. WHYTE. Mr. President, the statements which have been made or, after having raised a question of this magnitude touching so nearly the right by the Senator from Vermont induce to me to ask the Senator from of every citizen to his personal liberty and the very endurance of repulilica.n insti tutions, and to insure Its consideration fastened it on an appropriation bill, to a}. New Jersey to let us have a vote at this time upon his motion, and low it to be stricken out as a matter of secondary importance. The committee not to withdraw it or to let the report be laid upon the table without tbou~ht that their duty to their constituents to the House_, and to themselves action. It is very clear to my mind t.hat it is our duty to resort to woula not allow them to provide for any pecuniary1 appropriations at the expense of another conference committee on this bill, and if necessary still an so grave a reflection on the fundamental principles of the Government.-Speechea - and Addresses of H. Winter Davi8, of Maryland_ page 552. other freer and fuller conference with the other House, in order that we may by a change of the component parts of those conference commit There was Mr. Davis's view of that case. He put it upon the bill tees finally reach some report which will be acceptable to both Houses. to insure its p~$age through the Senate. The Senate then was com We have had three conferences, I believe, on this bill. That is noth posed of the same party in it·s majority as the House. It refused to ing remarkable between parliamentary bodies. After three confer pass the bill. The House refused to recede, and Congress adjourned ences parliamentary bodies have ordered free and full conferences, iu 1865 without passing the sundry civil appropriation bill at all. enlarging the powers of the conference committee with a view of Who got up here then and talked about a threat from the House of reconciling the disagreements of the two bodies. Representatives T Who got np here and said it was an outrage that I believe that the Senate is actuated by a spirit of patriotism when the Honse should demand that the Senate should adopt legislation 1t desires to hold· in its hands its own constitutional power of reason or give the Senate the alternative of no appropriation at all t It is ing, of deciding, of determining what it shall do in regard to any not a threat ripon the part of the House when the friends of the ma matter of legislation which requires the concurrent action of the two jority here assert that they consider a matter of such importance that bodies. I believe the House of Representatives is actuated by the they would rather adjourn without passing the appropriation bill same patriotic impulses. They have a perfect right to press with than to pass the bill without the legislation wllich they had in grafted ardor, to press with firmness, any views which they may entertain as upo!! it being adopted by the Senate. The statement of any con· to the legislation which will conduce most to the public good. They feree without the action of the House of Representatives ought not have the right to resort to all those parliamentary expedients which to be taken as any indication of what the House will do after proper are recognized as proper and in due form to bring about a result which discussion and reasoning upon the part of a new conference commit will be agreeable to their notions of right and wron~. We have the tee. If the House of Representatives had insisted aud _re-appointed same right to maint.ain, by all parliamentary expedients, our views. the same conferees as on the last committee of conference, you might But looking to the fact that tLis is an appropriation bill, a bill pro presume that they meant to stand upon what they had previously viding the means for maintaining in foreign lands our representation said; but we have yet taken no action. ·The papers are here with in honor and with credit to ourselves, we ought to go as far as it is us now. I rose for the purpose, and solely for the purpose of induc possible to reconcile the differences between the two Houses and ~me ing, as far as I may bA able to induce, the Senate to support the mo to some conclusion which will be fruitful of a result honorable to both tion of the Senator from New .Jersey to appoint a new conference branches of the Legislature. committee and give the House through another committee, cllanged I do not like to hear Senators speak of this mode of legislation in its component elements, if you plea.se, an opportunity of reconcil that is, of ingrafting upon appropriation bills certain measures of ing the differences -which exist between the two Houses. It is our legislation and sending them from one House to the other-as being duty to leave no stone unturned to pass the bill. I appeal to Sen improper and unwise, and when one House insists upon it that it is a ators let no feeling of dignity in regard to our rights, let no feeling threat that the appropriation bill shall not pass if the other House does that we have done much prevent us from doing more to bring to not accede to the wishes of the House putting such legislation upon the gether the two Houses upon this all-important bill; let not fore!~n na appropriation bill. It has been a common expedient upon the part of tions look npon us, the two Houses of the Congress of the uni'ted legislative bodies time out of mind, whether the Houses were :recon- States, in this centennial year disagreeing upon a question of saJa- 1876. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 4919 1ies in regard to our foreign ministers, and p~t ourselves in the P?si The question being taken by yeas and nays, resulted-yeas 28, nay& tiun of adjourning, leaving it to the Execu~1ve to re~all ~ur foreign 9 ; as follows: • ministers from their stations abroad to the1r homes m this country. YEAS-Messrs. .Allison, Cameron of Wisconsin, Christiancy, Conkling, Dorsey, I for one shall leave nothing undone on my part to reconcile my FeiTy, Frelinghuysen, Gordon, Hamilton, Hamlin, Howe, Jones of Florida, Kernan, somo bill which can receive the sanction of both the Houses Key, McMillan. Mitchell, Morton, Norwood, Paddock, Randolph, Ransom, Sargent, f~iends t~ Sherman, Wadleigh, West, Windom, Withers, and Wright-28. of Congress. NAYS-Messrs. Barnum, Bayard, Boutwell, McDonald, Menimon, Morrill, Rob Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. President, at the request of the Sen ertson, Saulsbury, and WaJlaoo-.9. ator from Maryland [Mr. WHYTE] and with the acquiescence of the ABSENT-Messrs. Alcorn, Anthony, Bogy, Booth, Bn;lCe, B~ide , Cameron !>f Senator from Vermont, [Mr. EDMUNDS,] I hope th'1t the vote will Pennsylvania, Clayton, Cockrell, Conover, Cooper, Cragm, DaVIS, Dawes, Denms, Eatoli, Edmunds, ·Goldthwaite, Harvey, ffit,chcock, ID.galla, Johnston, Jones of now be taken, and I am free to say t~:mt .I ~op~ the Sen~te ~!1 Nevada, Kelly, Logan, McCreery, MaXey, Oglesby, Patterson, Sharon, Spencer, insist and ask another conference. I thmk It 18 Wisest; I thmk It 18 Stevenson, Thurman, and Whyte-34. . most courteous; and I for one am not unwilling to in trust the consti So the amendment was-concurred in. tutional rights and powers of the Senate to any conferees that may The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The next amendment will be read. be selected from either party. The CHIEF CLERK. The next amendment made as in Committee The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from New Jersey moves of the Whole is in line 18, to strike out " two" and insert "six ; " so that the Senate further insist on its amendments and ask for another as to make the clause read : committee of conference. The question is on that motion. The motion waa agreed to; and, by unanimous consent, the Presi For the improvement of the harbor at Oak Orchard, New York, 16,000. dent pro temp01·e was authorized to appoint the co~mittee. The amendment was concurred in. The next amendment made aB -in Committee of the Whole was in JONATHAN WHITE. line 24, to strike out "two hundred" and insert "three hundred and · The PRESIDENT pro tem:10'7'e. A bill was called up by the Senator fifty;" so as to .make the clause read: from Illinois [Mr. OGLESBY] which was not at the desk at th~ time For removing obstructions in the East River and Hell Gate, New York, $350,000. but is now found. The Senator from Iowa [Mr. ALLISON] yielded to that bill. The amendment waB concurred in. There being no objectio-!1, the bill. (H. R. N?· 629) for -the relief of The next amendment was in line 39, to strike out "five" and insert Jonathan White wa.'i considered as m Comnnttee of the Whole. It "two;" so as to make the clause read: ,.. directs the Secretary of the Treasury to pay to Jonathan White, of For the improvement of the harbor at Marquette, Michig:m. $2,000. Minnesota, $55.40, illegally paid to the United States. land officers at Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like to ask the committee~the thing bas Red wood Falls, Minnesota, under a wrong construction of the tree beenhangingsolongnowthatldonotrememberaboutit~thegrounds culture act. of this amendment. We are now comjng along to what wn.a in The bill was reported to the Senate, ordered to a third reading, read volved in the old discussions. All the amendments th:tt the Commit the third time, and passed. tee on Appropriations reported to strike out will have to be moved WASHINGTON MONUliENT. afresh, of course, as the Committee of the Whole refused to strike them out. I should like all the information that can be got from Mr. SHERMAN. I ask the Chair to lay before the Senate the the reports of the engineers and the inquiries of the committee on amendments of the House of Representatives to the Washington this subject. Monument bill. I have exa.mined the amendments and I move that Mr. ALLISON. As to this particular harbor the engineer recom we agree to t.hem. mended a considerably larger sum. I do not remember the exact The PRESIDENT pro tempore la.id before t~e Senate the runel!-d sum, though I could get it in a few moments from the reports. The ments of the House of Representatives to the bill (S. No. 982) provld House bill appropriated $5,000. That is not enough to enter npon ing for the completion of the W a.shington Monument. any particular impr.ovement of this harbor at Marquette, and it is The amendments of the House are: more than necessary to keep it in repair. Therefore the committee On page l lino 5 strike out " one "and insert in hen thereof "two," so as to make simply recommended $2,000, a sum sufficient to keep this harbor in the amount 'appropriated $200,0~0; and after the wor~ "dolla.rs," in line 6, insert "pa.yablein four equal annualmstallments;" and atnke out all after the word repair until such .time as a sufficient appropriation can be made to go " consideration " in line 25 down to and including the word "monument," in line on with the improvement. . 26 and insert ..'of the sn~ herein appropriated: Provided, That nothing herein I think I may as well call attention now as at any other time to sh~ll be so construed as to prohibit the said society from continuing in orF:aniza. the fact that the Senate is still progr~in~ according to the mode8 tion for the purpose of soliciting and collecting 11?-oney and materials from Sta~s. o.ssociationa, and the p.aople ~aid of ~he Mr. HARVEY. My knowledge and belief concerning this bill coin occasion to look at the bill a long time ago. In filing that bill he cide with my colleague. I understand this fifteen cents an acre to represented an association of men which taken altogether was made be agreed to by the settlers as. the most equitable and satisfactory up of a part of the settlers on this tract. They were in hostility to way of adjusting the expenses they incurred by the employment of the railroad title. There were other settlers, and my recollection is counsel to defend their rights in this matter. I think there is sub a great many of them, who had taken their titles under the railroad stantial unanimity among them on the subject. and they insisted on that title. Fortunately for them they were not The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. SARGENT in the chair.] The required to employ counsel to defend their title, because-the railroad question is on the amendment of the Senator from Iowa [Mr. WRIGHT] company, being the grantor, and having given covenants of warranty, to section 8. was called upon, although it was defunct, through its· receiver, to Mr. EDMUNDS. I move to amend the amendment by striking out employ counsel and maintain title for itself and for the settlers to the words "at the instance," after the word'' retained," where the whom it had granted. Thus, as I understand it--and at all times, if words are "at the instance of the settlers," and insert "by ;" so as to I am wrong, I of course want to be set right-a litigation was waged read "retained by the settlers ; " for I am informed on the very best for a part of these settlers against the grantor of other settlers. I authority that the United 8tates never retained anybody at all. They see the Senator shakes his head. I wish he would shake it audibly. authorrized the private counsel of the settlers, as they do in all cases Mr. INGALLS. In the name of the United States Government where there are priva~ interests involved, when they desire, to appear against the railroad companies. and argue the cause. That implies that the United States retained Mr. CONKLING. My friend is very particular about terms. I am somebody, and by inference therefore is responsible to pay somebody. aware that this WM a proceeding in the name of the United States, Mr. WRIGHT. I have no objection to that amendment. which might be implied from the statement I made, that the alleged The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendment is accepted. cloud on the title was a patent, and proceedings under the patent; Mr. BOUTWELL. I move to amend still further by striking out and, therefore, the form which the a-ction took was an assertion that· "Interior" in the two places where it reads" the Secretary of the In not to the railroad companies but to the United States still belonged terior" and insert "Treasury;" so as to read "Secretary of the Treas the title to these lands. Is not that 'right Y ury," and after the word" Treasury," where it occurs in the second Mr. INGALLS. That is correct. place, to insert: l\.lr. CONKLING. Then I was correct before except that I did not After said account-a shall have been audited and allowed by the accounting offi stop for the moment to state the circumlocution which entered into cers, shall pay to the parties entitJed thereto the sum so allowed. the technicality-of the proceedings. To resume my way of stating it, which aims at substance and not at form, here was, I repeat, a And strike out all after the word "allowed." litigation in which a large number of the settlers contended with MJ:, WRIGHT. As I understand the amendment proposed by the other settlers upon that tract about the title. The largernumberin Senator from Massachusetts, it is to confer the duties provided for in sistedthat they held from the United States, that the United States was this section, and imposed on the Secretary of the Interior, upon their guarantor and that title was good. The others held that the the Secretary of the 'l'rellBnry, and to provide further that there shall title had passed to the railroad company, and the railroad company be an auditing of the accounts before they shall be paid. That I wa-s their grantor, and thus they held title. That was the issue. understand to be the proposition of the Senator. I have no objec The Supreme Court decided, as Mr. Justice Miller had in the first in tion to this amendment. My object in the amendment I have offered stance decided, in short, that that patent was void and that the title is to confine the amount that is to be paid to the legitimate purpose was good which was asserted in the name of the United States; and that is specified in the amendment, and that is the fees of the attor that was the holding of those who sympathized with the plaintiff in neys who were employed, and not apply it to anything else. What that suit; and thClR~ who sympathized with the railroad company ever may be done to assist in the way of perfecting that I have no and held under it were beaten. · objection to. If t.bat amendment to my substitute shall be adopted I understand the bill proposes that by operation of law an assess it will still be for the Senate to determine whether they will have it ment of fifteen cents an acre shall be made upon the pos essions of in at all. My object is to have the section as perfect as possible be these settlers, share and share alike, to pay, to make up a sum-total fore voting on the question of striking ·out. of $144,000, which is to be devoted to paying the counsel who carried The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the amendment on this litigation, and devoted to no other purpose that I have beard of the Senator from Massachusett~ [Mr. BOUTWELL] to1the amend explained. Two things strike me. First, can it be possible that a ment of the Senator from Iowa, [:Mr. WRIGHT.] bill filed by the district attorney or in his name to remove a cloud on Mr. WRIGHT. I accept the amendment. title and adjudged at the first instance, and an appeal taken to the Mr. CONKLING. Mr. President, I should like to have some infor Supreme Court aud the decree confirmed by the Supreme Court, has mation to guide my vote on this part of the bill. My understanding involved, unless there was an immense army of counsel, to any num is, and the Senator from Kansas who knows the facts can correct.me, ber of counsel that we can suppose were in good faith retained, a. that originally on this tract of land, there being a dispute about the labor which it requires $144,000 to compensate f title and there being a division runong the dwellers as to which side Mr. OGLESBY. Was it not a,question of law! they took in that dispute, although I presume a great majority was Mr. CONKLING. My honorable friend asks me was it not a ques on one side, a certain portion of these settlers procured a bill to be tion of 'law. He might have put a narrower question and I could filed to remove a cloud on the title-- have answered it in form. It involved a question of the Mnstrnction Mr. INGALLS. Will the Senator allow me to interrupt him there, of a statute which I do not think is longer in print, being a single as he desires to be correct about the facts Y section, than that envelope [holding np an envelope] is broad. The Mr. CONKLING. I do. question was whether, under a particular section of a statute, the Mr. INGALLS. The1;e was a joint resolution introduced for that pur patents and the proceedings under those patents were authentic or pose ; but subsequently, upon the application of myself and my col not: in other words, whether under that statute this title did remain lea.gue to the Attorney-General, he directed the suit to be brought of in the United States ~d did inure to the benefit of those who claimed his own motion for the purpose of testing the question of title in under it, or whether the proceedings by which the railway company volved in the construction of the acts of 1863 and 1869. said it took were unauthentic under that section and the convey Mr. CONKLING. What portion of my statement does the Senator ances which they h:td made to the settlers were valid. That was the think he has corrected t question f Mr. INGALLS. I understood the Senator to say there was a bill M.J;. EDMUNDS. Yes, sir. passed for the purpose of removing a cloud on the title. Mr. CONKLING. And that is the whole question that I ever heard Mr. CONKLING. Had the Senator attended a little more narrowly, of in the case. Perhaps I ought to say, to be entirely frank about it, he would have heard me say that a. bill was filed, not passed, but filed. as the honorable Senator from Kansa-s remarked that he hail never Mr. INGALLS. I beg pardon ; I thought the Senator referred· to been retained in the ca,se, that I wa once retained in the case by a re legislative proceedings. ceiver, if I remember aright, of one of these railway companies, the Mr. CONKLING. No, sir. I am out of legislation for the moment. purpose of my retainer being to argue in the Supreme Court a motion There was a. bill filed to remove a cloud on the title. That was the which I think resulted substantially in a motion to postpone one of bill; I read it. The alleged cloud was a patent and proceedings under these cases or all of them to the end that parties who bad not bad an a pateljt which they sought to have set aside and thus remove the opportunity to answer might come in and appear on the record, and cloud on their title. That suit commenced and that bill was filed by all be beard who wished to be heard. It was through that motion the district attorney whose name, I think, was Shannon. that I came to know something of the facts which are now stated Mr. INGALLS. No. from a somewhat faded memory. I say1 first, I can hardly understand Mr. CONKLING. He was the attorney of record. Does the Sen how the litigation carried on to obtam a legal construction of one ator say not brief section of a statute, a. cause in which the judgment was not Mr. INGA:eLS. The attorney of the United States for that district reversed and sent back to a new trial but which was tried once and was Mr. George R. Peck. Governor Shannon, of historic fame in the the decree affirmed by the Supreme Court, did involve such labor for State of Kansas, was one of the counsel retained by the settlers who one counsel or for two counsel; I believe there were but two. appeared in the court below. Mr. INGALLS. Three. Mr. CONKLING. Very well; then it may be that Mr. Peck was Mr. CONKLING. Three includes the district attorney f the attorney of record and Mr. Shannon's name appeared of counsel. Mr. INGALLS. Three besides the district attorney. Those two gentlemen filed a bill. The attorney of record, or more Mr. CONKLING. I can hardly understand how three counsel earned exactly speaking, the solicitor, was the district attorney of that dis at two hearings upon that section of the statute, one at niB£ priu,s and trict. I cannot be mistaken about that because, as I say, I once bad one before the court in bano, $144,000. -· 1876. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SEN ATE. Mr. INGALLS. The Senator does not certuinly suppose-that this the title of the United States and the invalidity of this contending bill proposes to pay them $144,000. title. Mr. Justice Miller, sitting at nisi prius, held that this section Mr. CONKLING. What is the object of levying this contribution of the statute continued the title in the United States anQ. that the rail of fifteen cents an acre' way title was void. From that an appe8>1 was taken to the Supreme Mr. INGALLS. The bill expressly says in the twelfth, thirteenth, Court, and the S11preme Court, after hearing the argument, confirmed and fourteenth lines of the eighth section that the amount of costs the decree, and that ended it. and expenses shall be ascertained and certified by the Attorney-Gen Mr. THURMAN. Were these outside counsel, as I call them, not eral to the Secretary of the Interior. out of disrespect certainly, employed by the Government f Mr. CONKLING. What is to be done with the balance f Mr. CONKLING. Never in any sense that I hear of. The Senator Mr. INGALLS. I suppose if it is collected 'it is to be devoted to from Ohio evidently anticipates what I was coming to say, the other the civilizati.on fund. I conceive of nothing else to be done with it. thing which I do not understand, and that is what the United States Mr. CONKLING. I am in favor of nll funds, general and special, or Congress has to do with the matter. The district attorney appeared for civilization. in a purely perfunctory way to allow his name to go on the record as Mr. INGALLS. I should have stated the fund for the civilization solicitor, and therefore nobody owes him anything. If the counsel of India}Js. were employed by this association of settlers and have or have not Mr.' CONKLING. My regret is that I cannot augment the object made a special agreement, why on earth does not this a~sociation of of such funds. Anything which tends to civilize anybody, red or settlers pay its counsel and settle with them jJist aa any other men white, I am in favor of, as a general proposition; but I do humbly would do, whether they were acting in the association or acting by submit that when the Senate is asked to impose upon all these lands individual ri~bt f fifteen cents an acre aa a tribute or contribution to be taken out of The honorable Senator says he introduced the bill in April. It was them to pay counsel fees, we ought to know a little more about it. published far and wide. The newspapers mentioned it; copies were If the total is $144,000 and it turns out that only 10,000, or $20,000, sent; everybody knows it; nobody ha~ protested. I infer from that is necessary, and the residue of it will go to the civilization fund, and from other statements the Senator has made that this legislation then we ought to have a section for that purpose and it'ought not to proceeds upon the theory that these men are in all accord. Then, why go in the name of counsel fees. I consider that a bad baptism for do we want the instrumentality of an act of Cong-ress to levy upon legislation to civilize those from whom the money is to be taken. I every acre of this ground fifteen cents, amass it m a fund, hand it say I do not understand why it is necessary, as a jump in the dark over to the Attorney-General, and then to commit to his discret-ion or a guess or an estimate, to give $144,000 for this purpose. the disposition of the fund f What is that disposition f It is either But there is another thing. I heard the honorable Senator from to execute an agreement, if there· be a valid agreement, mea~nring Kansas speak of rumors and fleeting conversations, if I got the word, this compensation, or else it is to have these gentlemen present their b~t what those rumors or fleeting conversations are I do not know; bills and scrutinize them as any other client would and if they differ but speaking from conjecture upon the face of the bill, I should say refer iL to somebody, and then pay whatever appears due. Does a that if fifteen cents an acre be the sum, making a total which we man need an act of Congress to pay his doctor's bill or his lawyer's bill T know beforehand is $144,000, it would seem to imply that some meas Mr. SARGENT. What is to be done with the surplus t ure of compensation had been agreed upon either positively or con Mr. CONKLING-. The honorable Senator from Kansas s:J,ys, by tingently which leads to so large a total. I do not mean to intimate way of conjecture, if I understand him~he disclaimed any knowl that any counsel in this case indulged in what I suppose I may call edge about it-if anything is left over it is to go to the general fund a very questionable professional proceeding of making~n agreement for civilization. upon the practice of some vete.rinary surgeons or horse-doctors of Mr. INGALLS. Under the treaty of 1867. whom I have heard, "No core no pay;" that is making an agreement Mr. CONKLING. It is to go into the general civilization fund, ba~ed upon the idea that a lawyer does an insurance business and not upon which I observed, if we are to levy a contribution of fifteen a law business, an agreement by which if he does his duty all the cents an acre to deposit some definite sum in the general civiliza way and fails he is to receive nothing, and if he succeeds he is to tion fund we .had better say so; we had better do it and not appro receive a compensation which would be regarded as extraordinary, priate the money.under the name of counsel fees, contingent or other if it were merely to be governed by the rule of quantum, 'TM1'Uit-- wise, in order to have a sum we know not how much go in some con- Mr. HOWE. Whether he does his duty or not. tingency which may never arise into a civilization fund. • Mr. CONKLING. And that, a~ my honorable friend very properly Mr. President, it would as ill become me in principle as in interest reminds me, whether he does his duty or not, whether the success to stand in the way of a lawyer being paid for what he does. I comes from some mere veering of the winds of chance o1· from some should consider it very hard that I should not be paid; and I should faithful; laborious, and recondite service which he performs. I do not consider it especially hard if the man who employed me and who mean to intimate anything of that sort, and yet I ·must say that un reaped the fruits of my labor would not pay me. Therefore I am in less there has been some understanding or some suggestion by which favor of these gentlemen being paid whatever is due to them. No in the event which has happened, namely, the confirmation of this de doubt they rendered services which should be paid for at a suitable cree, somebody is to receive at a rate which will mount up to $144,000, rate; but if this act is to operate upon those who are in law and in being fifteen cents an acre on this land, I cannot conjecture within equity chargeable with these expenses, to wit, the people who em the limited range of my understanding why a body composed largely ployed these counsel, or, speaking in the language of the bill, at of lawyers should on any state of the case before them find a~ a mat whose instance and request the counsel performed this service, what ter of fact, because I know legislation is mixed of law and of fact, is the sense of taking it out of their lands and putting it in the and to vote for this provision we must find as a matter of fact, as far pocket of the United States and then having the United States turn as we know, that $144,000 is a suitable compensation for three gen around and hand it to t.he counsel, when the easy way is for them to tlemen who discussed at nisi prius and afterward before the court in arrange this private transaction between themselves and their- coun bane the meaning of one single section of a statute not two inches sel f If, on the.other hand, we want something as large as an act of long as it stands in print. Congress to descend upon the lands of these men who never did agree Mr. THURMAN. Will the Senator tell me, for I am very ignorant to go into this lit.igation, who omitted or refused to become contrib of this matter, what are the facts in the case' ut.ors to this litigation, nay, if the object is to have this levy made Mr. CONKLING. As well as I can tell the Senator I will. The upon the lands of those who asserted the railway title, who stood in Senat-or from Kansas has corrected me until I believe I can. It was hostility to this proceeding, who were defeated,in the snit, then I can a bill filed in the name of the United States by the district attorney see a great deal for the act to take hold of; but that great deal is of the district in which the bill was filed. The object of the bill wa~, just so much of objection as I understand it, to our undertaking here as I said, to remove a cloud on the title. Stating it with less artifi by force and might, by an act of legislation to levy forced contribu ciality, its purpose wa~ to affirm that under this section of the statute tiQons against those who never employed counsel but whose interests certain patents which had gone to a railway company and hence, by were wmpped up in the other side and who were cast and defeated conveyances made by them under those patents to settlers, were void, in the litigation. I do not understand this at all. It may be mnch and that in truth under the law the land remained in the United clearer to others than it is to me; but I say that if the design is to States, and that other persons were entitled to come in nuder the enforce payment from those whd created the debt they do not need laws of the United St.ateil, and paying the price fixed by those laws us to enforce it. If they sue and recover their debtors and clients to take the lands themselves. cannot even "beat them on the execution." An execution if there is Mr. THURMAN. One question more. Who employed the outside not personalty to answer it will descend upon and take these lands counsel T and devote them to the satisfaction of this debt. That is all provided Mr. CONKLING. As I understand it, the outside counsel sprang up for in existing law. If that is to be the whole purpose and effect of in this way: Here on this tract were a great many people. Some of the bill I should say it was not only a work of supererogation but them had bought under the railway title and they strenuously insisted something more than that. On the other hand if the pw:pose is to on that. Some of them had taken lands under the idea that they could subject the property, be it real or personal, of those who never em proceed under the laws of the United States directly with the 'united ployed counsel and who never agreed to pay them, who were adverse States and by paying the price there nominated become possessed of to the proceeding, who were defeated and whose patents went down the title. The persons who represented the latter idea, or a part of with the proceeding, to a forced 'Contribution to pay the counsel fees them, formed an aslilociation, as I hear it called here, which associa of the victors over them, any principle of equity which covers that tiou through its organs retained one, two, three counselseriatirn; and must be more elastjc than any principle of which I know. If this is these three counsel proceeding in the name of the district attorney not true, if I am mistaken in the position of this matter and the facts filed a bill in the name of the United St~tes to ass~rt tht'existe.p.ce of I would be ve~y ~lad to hear it from any Senator who will enlighten 49.26 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JULY 28, me for I will vote for anything which is right in ,my view to enable There is another objection to the measure, it seems to me. I am these gentlemen to get their pay, but it seein8 to me there is nothing perfectly willing to pay these gentlemen their fees. When this bill to be done except to let their other clients settle. waa up the other day I expressed that desire. I am willing to pay Mr. MORRILL. May I ask the Senator from New York whether them liberal fees, because by the decision of the conrt, founded purely he thinks the United States would or would not be accountable to upon their labors, the Government of the United States and the set the Indian civilization fund for these fifteen cents additional re tlers have secured the possession of title to lands; but when it is pro ceived from this land f posed to set aside a fund of $144,000 to pay two or three lawyers I Mr. CONKLING. I am not sure I apprehend the Senator. Does he must most respectfully dissent. Therefore I think the provisions of mean that if we levy the fifteen cents an acre and it turns out on ad the bill ought to be more guarded. It ought to be so restricted as justment that half of it is due to counsel foes and the other half re that somebody will be charged with the power to fix what ought mains, whether we would then be liable to pay that over f equitably to be paid to these attorneys. Mr. MORRILL. Whether we should not be liable for the whole Another section in the bill while I am up I may as well mention. sum. Have the Indians any lot or parcel in this suit t The policy of selling lands upon credit, and especially upon four years' Mr. CONKLING. That;. never occurred to me until this moment; credit, is a very bad one indeed. These lands ought to be sold for but I must say I think it is a very pertinent question. I do not know. cash. The third section of the bill authorizes the Commissioner to The Senator who puts the question sees probably more clearly than sell these lands on four years' time. First it gives a year in which I do that it involves a reference to statutes and treaties. the settler may make his entry. Then it allows him to pay one-fourth Mr. MORRILL. r will say, as I understand it, under the treaty we down and the balance in three annual payments, with 5 per cent. inter are to pay $300,000 and the remainder of the proceeds are to go to est. The result is, as 5 per cent. is much less than the rate of inter the civilization fund. I do not see why we would not be liable for est in Kansas, every settler will claim the benefit accorded by this the whole amount. rat-e of inter~t. When these men take the land .they ought to pay Mr. CONKLING. By our act we take fifteen cents out of this land. for it in cash. Let them borrow the money if they choose, but they We take it at our peril, and the Indians not being privy to that, the should get it. The Government of the United States ha.s never been question is whether they have not a claim against us, as far as Indians fortunate when it undertook, as this bill authorizes, to take a mort have a claim against anybody and especially against the United gage or to make a contract and enter upon that contract payments. States, to make that good. That is a very awkward question. It is The result is that debtors are very slow in paying the Government a conundrum which I would rather my friend from Kansas would money. The time will not be long, not more than a year or two, when answer than myself to undertake to answer it. a bill will be introduced in Congress to relieve these people not only Mr. INGALLS. This debate seems to have degenerated into a con from the interest but probably from the principal. It seenis to me, troversy whether certain attorneys should be paid their fees, and, if therefore, if these lands are to be sold to the settlers, and I think t.bey so, how much and in what manner. I cannot consent, so far as I am ought to be, they ought to pay whatever price is fixed upon in money concerned myself, to be placed in the attitude to advocate the pay within one year and then ta.ke out their title. · ment of fees, whether extortionate, reasonable, or otherwise, to these .Mr. ALLISON. In answer to the suggestions made by the Sena or to any other attorneys. I may say in passing that I am not and tor from Ohio I will state the reason for offering my amendment. never have been an attorney upon either side of this case. I had the The treaty with the Great and Little Osages covering this particular opportunity of appearing and was'offered a retainer for the side that tract of land was made in 1865, and the Government of the United was successful in the circuit court and in the Supreme Court; but I States advanced to these tribes $300,000. Then .these lands were to thought as a question of delicacy, to say nothing more, that it was be sold by the Government of ·the United States for the best attain hardly consistent with my duties aa a Senator to take a fee and ap able price and the cost of sale; the $300,000 was to be re-imbursed to pear in court upon a matter upon which I might subsequently be the Treasury and the remainder of the fund, whatever it might be, called upon to vote. Therefore I say that I have no inclination, no was to be set aside under tlie control of the Secretary of the Interior interest, no motive whatever to say whether these attorneys shall be as a civilization fund, not for the Great and Little Osages bot for all paid or whether they shall not; neither am I here to advocate their the Indian tribes in the United States. claims or to protest against them. It is to me absolutely immaterial Mr. SHERMAN. ~illmyfriendallowmetointerrupthimtherejust whether they are paid or not. I simply stand here representing a for a moment f Suppose we place a fund t.o the credit of the civiliza • certain community, a portion of my own constituency in the State of tion of the Indians, who is to determine whether Sitting Bull is to Kansas, who have, so far as I know, unanimously expressed their de be killed as the only way you can civilize him Y It is a charity which sire that the expense that h~s been incurred shall be paid in the man if put in a will or charitable bequest would be void for uncertainty. ner proposed in the bill. If the Senat.e think that that is inappropri Mr. ALLISON. That is the precise point I wish now to meet. The ate, that it is not a desirable method of legislation, I shall be entirely Secretary of the Interior ha.s so construed the first article of the treaty satisfied to have that expression recorded. All that I desire is that that nnder it he has hitherto without limitation disposed of this these thirty thousand people, who in consequence of this determina civilization fund. We have soJl358,000 acres of these lands, and the tion of the Supreme Court are without a title to their homes which Secretary of the Interior, without any control whatever, bas disposed they themselves have purchased at the invitation of the Government, of this fund thus far. shall have some means afforded by which they can secure a title and Mr. HOWE. For how much were these lands sold f by which the consequent disorder and agitation and danger may be M:r. ALLISON. They were sold at a dollar and a quarter an acre averted. It is for that purpose that I have urged this bill upon the under the resolution of 1869, which I suppose has been quoted in this attention of the Senate, and if a majority of the body desire to ex debate. press their opj.nion that this method of adjudicating the claims be Mr. EDMUNDS. Subject to the legal rights of everybody, includ tween the settlers and their attorneys is not to be approved, all I have ing the Indians Y to say is that I shall be content. I ask that action may be taken Mr. ALLISON. Undoubtedly. They were sold at this price, and upon the bill so far as the question of the title itself is concerned, and. this fund has been used by the Secretary of the Interior in support that we may pass fTOm these incidental topics to those certainly which of the common schools in these various tribes, in the discretion of the are material. Secretary of the Interior. Some of it may have gone to the Sioux, M:r. ALLISON. I move to add to the amendment proposed by my some of it to tribes in Wisconsin or to tribes in Oregon. It has been colleague the following : disposed of solely in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior. And aJl the remainder of the proceeds of such sales shall be paid into the Treas lli. RANDOLPH. Has the money been re-imbursed to the Treas ury of the United States and placed to the credit of the civilization fund pJ;ovided uryf for by treaty concluded between the United States and the Great and Little Osage Mr. ALLISON. The $300,000 has been re-imbursed and the cost of tribes of Indians, September 29, 1065, a.nd proclcimed January 21, 1867. sale. There has been a fund in addition of about $200,000 that has :Mr. INGALLS. Is that in order now f been thus disposed o£. The very object o£ my amendment is to place The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e. It is. The other amendment hav this fund within the control of Congress. It proposes that this fund ing been accept-ed, it baa become a part of the original amendment. shall be placed in the Treasury of the United States to the credit of The question is upon the amendment to the amendment. tlris fund, because the treaty says it shall be to the credit of this fund. Mr. SHERMAN. There is one objection to the amendment to the I wish to ask the Senator from Ohio how this fund will ever be got . amendment which, unless removed by technical words, will leave this out of the Treasury without an act of Congress f aa one of those unhappy funds in the Treasury which are always the Mr. SHERMAN. If my friend will allow me, what I object to is prey of the spoiler; that is a trust fund. Senators have had their at ten that he haa not used the necessary technical words . . tion called lately to ·the nature of having trust funds in the Treas- M:r. ALLISON. Very well; I will thank the Senator to insert them. ury. The cotton fnn Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President- settlers, though I think they were a lit.tle hasty in getting on the. Mr. EDMUNDS. I shall feel obliged to vote against this amend land; but that is the nature of our people, and I do not blame them ment. for it. But one thing I regret, that the committee who reported this The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. Does lhe Senator from Ohio yield to bill did not see fit to make a written report, setting forth the whole the Senator from Vermont ' law and facts of the case. I confess that for one I want more infor Mr. EDMUNDS, I beg pardon; I was not aware the Senator from mation than I have on this subject; and if there is not a very strong Ohio bad arisen. desire to pass the bill to-night, I will move that the Senate adjourn. Mr. HOWE. I should like to have the amendment reported to The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from Ohio moves that which this is an amendment. the Senate adjourn. The PRESIDENT p1'o tempo're. The amendment will be reported. Mr. CRAGIN. I desire to enter a motion to reconsider. The Chlef Clerk read as follows: Mr. THURMAN. At the request of the Senator from Iowa! with That it shall be the duty of the Attorney-General of the United States, for the draw my ~otion to adjourn. time being, to ascertain and det-ermine the amount of the reasonable fees justly due to the attorneys retained by the settlers on said lands, with the approval of the MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE. Attorney-General of the United States, in the prosecution of the suits against the A message from the House of Representatives, by Mr. G. M. ADAMS, its ,railroad companies herein named, in the circuit court of t-he United States for the Clerk, announced that the House had agreed to the report of the com district of Kansas, 11nd the Supreme Court of the United States, for the purpose of testing the validity of the title to said Janda claimed by the railroad companies ; mittee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on and that after determining the amount of said fees the Attorney-General shall cer the bill (H. R. No. 810) making appropriations for the support of the tify t,he same. and to whom due, to the Secretary of the Treasury, and the said Military Academy for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1877. Secretary of the Treasury, after the said account shall be audited and allowed by The message also announced that the President of the United States the accounting officer of the Treasury, shall pay to the parties entitled thereto the sums here allowed. having returned to the House of Representatives, in which it origi nated, the bill (H. R. No. 1337) for the relief of Nelson Tiffany, with Mr. THURMAN. Then comes the amendment offered by the Sen his objections thereto, the House of Representatives had proceeded ator from Iowa, as modified by my colleague. in pursua-nce of the Constitution to reconsider the same, and had Mr. EDMUNDS. Then follows the addition. pa,gsed it by a two-thirds vote notwithstanding the objections. Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I am so much in favor of actual settlers on the public lands acquiring title to the lands upon which MILITARY ACADEMY .APPROPRIATION BILL. they settle, that I am strongly disposed .to vote for so much of this Mr. ALLISON submitted the following report: bill as gives these settlers a right to perfect a title, or rather to pro The committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two House.~ on the core a title to these lands. It is very true as I suppose from what I amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 810) making appropriations for the have heard, professing my ignorance on the subject, that they went support of the Military Academy for the fiscal year ending .Tone 30, 1877, having met, after full and free conference have agreed to recommend, and do recommend, upon these lands without any authority of law whatever; I do not to their respective Houses, as follows: know but in violation of law. It is very true that in all probability That the Senate recede from its amendments numbered 10, 11, 18, and 2-2. these lands are worth a gre.tt deal more than $1.40 an acre. It is very That the Honse recede from its disagreement to the amendments numbered 1, 2, true that this bill does not provide that these lands shall be offered at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 23, and 24. That the Honse recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 8, and public auction as other public lands are offered, bot gives to these agree to the eame with an amendment as follows: Strike out on page 1 of the bill persons who have entered upon these lands without any authority of liiles 15 aml 1G; and the Senate agree to the same. law a pre-emption right, not the pre-emption right provided for by That the House recede from its disagi"eement to the amendment numbered 9, and the general statute but a special pre-emption right. Yet, in view of agree to the same with an amendment as follows: Strike out of said amendment tlie word "fourt~en," and insert in lieu thereof the word " eleven," and strike out all the circumstances of the case, I confess that I have an inclina "ei~ht hundred antl eighty," and at the end of the amendment add as follows: tion to let the settlers procure a title to these lands. After we have "Whlch shall be in full for the pay of the said band and for all company musicians passed the homestead law, which I entirely appr8ve; after we have for the fiscal year ending .Tone 30, 1877, any law to the contrary notwithstanding;" and the Senate agree to the same. passed a general pre-emption law, I do not know that it will do to That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendments numbered 12 stick in the bark and object to special pre-emption Jaw, as this is, and 13, and agree to the same with an amendment as follows: Strikeout from each under the circumstances of the case; but after hearing the treaty of said amendments the word "five" and insert in each in lieu thereof the word read by the Senator from Vermont it does seem that this bill is in "two;" and the Senate agree to the same. direct violation of that treaty. In the first place, the treaty provides That the Senate recede from its amendment numbered 20, with an amendment striking out on page 5 lines 11 and 12 of the bill; and the House agree to the that the lands shall be sold for cash as other public lands are sold. same. This bill provides that the L'1nds shall be sold on credit, one-fourth W. B. ALLISON, in hand and the rest in three eqnnl annual installments. I ask the .TORN A. LOGAN, WM. .A.. WALLACE, · attention of the Senator from Vermont to what I am saying. Managers on the part of the &nate. Mr. EDMUNDS. I am always paying attention to the Senator. SAML . .T. RANDALL, Mr. THURMAN. The treaty, I understand, requires that the land ERASTUS WELLS, shall be sold for cash as other public lands are sold. EUGENE HALE, Mr. EDMUNDS. And for the best price that can be got, "on the Ma-nagers on the part of the Hom~. most advantageous terms." . Mr. EDMUNDS. I ask that that bill be printed in such form that Mr. THURMAN. On the best terms, which would seem to imply we can understand it as it will be amended by this report. that they shall be offered as other public lands are, at public sale in The PRESIDENT pro teJnpore. That order will be made if there be the first instance. no objection. Mr. INGALLS. Did the Senator hear the act of April 10, 1869, ALBERT GRANT. read, which applies to these very lands' Mr. THURMAN. I will hear it now. Mr. CRAGIN. The Committee on Claims, to whom was referred Mr. INGAL:a;. The act provides- the bill (H. R. No. 3182) for the relief of Albert Grant, reported the same adversely, and it has been indefinitely postponed. I have been That any bona fide settler residing npon any portion of the lands· sold to the United States by virtue of the first and semnd. articles of the treaty concluded be requested to make a motion to reconsider that vote indefinitely post tween the UniWd States a.nd the Great and Little Osage tribe of Indians, Septem poning the bill, ~nd that the same may be placed upon the Calendar. ber29, 1865, a.nd proclaimed January 21, 11:!67, who is a. citizen of the United States I know nothing about the case, bot a gentleman for whom I have or shall have declared his intention to become a citizen of the Unit-ed States, shall great respect asks me to make this motion. The chairman of the be, and hereby is, entitled to pnrohase the same in quantity not exceeding one hun dred and sixty acres, at the price of $1.25 per acre, within two years from the pas committee makes no objection to it. sa~e of this aot, under such rules and regulations as p1ay be prescribed by the Sec The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Is there objection to reconsidering rer..'tl'y of the Interior. the vote t The Senator from New Hampshire moves to reconsider :Mr. EDMUNDS. Now read the last proviso, please. the vote by which the bill wa-s indefinitely postponed, and that the Mr. THURMAN. That would only seem to prove that the act of 1869 bill be placed on the Calendar. Is their objection t The Chair hears was in violation of the treaty. none, and it is so ordered. Mr. ED.MUNDS. Read -the last proviso, and see. OSAGE LANDS IN KANSAS. Mr. INGALLS. The lust proviso is in these words: The Senate, a.s in Committee of the Whole, resumed the considera Provided, lwwe-oer, That nothing in this act shall be construed in any manner af tion of the bill (H. R. No. 3625) providing for the sale of the Osage fecting any legal rights heretofore vested in any other party or parties. ceded lands in Kansas to actual settlers. And that was intended, I may say in passing, to preserve, as far as Mr. INGALLS. Inasmuch as the court has adjourned to assemble they could be preserved, the assumed or supposititious rights of rail at twelve o'clock on Monday, I ask unanimous consent that without road corporations. further action or motion on my part this bill that we have now been Mr. EDMUNDS. I should think from the language it was intended considering may be considered as the unfinished business on the first to preserve everybody's rights. . legislative day. · Mr. THURMAN. I should suppose that the proviso was intended Mr. ALLISON. I have no objection to that, subject to the river to kill the section to which it was attached, and therefore I am in and harbor bilL clined to think that the act of 1869, if I understood the treaty aright, Mr. EDMUNDS. I have no objection to it, subject to the bill about was a plain violation of the treaty. the Pacific railroads and one or two others that are of great publio Mr. EDMUNDS. But for the proviso it would be. importance. Mr. INGALLS. The settlers are not to blame for that violation. Mr. INGALLS. Under the roles I suppose it would come up a.s Mr. THURMAN. Undoubtedly not. My sympathies are with the unfinished business. 1876. OONGRESSIONAL REOORD-SEN.ATE. 4929 The PRESIDENT pro tempore. On· the next legislative day. Mr. HOWE. I wish to inquire is the Senator's 3mendment an Mr. LOGAN. I desire to inquire what the order is in reference to amendment to 1he section in the bill T this bill Mr. WRIGHT. It is a substitute for the section. The PRESIDEN'li pro tentpore. It will be the unfinishecl business Mr. HOWE. I understand.the Senator to say that his motion· is to on the next legislative day. strike out the section in the bill and to insert his proposition. When Mr. LOGAN. What is the proposition; to adjourn f we have agreed to his amendment we shall have put his measure into Mr. INGALLS. The motion to adjourn has been withdrawn. It is the bill. now but half past four o'clock, and I believe this bill is pretty well .Mr. WRIGHT. I do not undersbmd it so. understood, and it would be very agreeable to me if the Senate would Mr. HOWE. Am I right T kindly consent to finish it this evening. Of course I have no objection The PRESIDENT p·ro tem.pore. There is a motion pending by the to adjournment if the Senate desires to adjourn. Senator from Vermont to strike out the section. This is a motion to Mr. LOGAN. I believe it waa stated when I asked to lay this bill perftct the section. aside this morning for the purpose of taking up the bounty bill that Mr. HOWE. Then a motion to strike ont will still be in orderf it would only take h:~lf an hour to dispose of it. It has occupied al The PRESIDENT pro tempore. That motion is pending and the most the en tire day, and the prospects are that it will occupy another Senate is now perfecting the section. Before the motion to strike out day. If this bill is not finished this evening, I shall make the same is put the question is on the amendment of the Senator from Iowa to motion to lay it aside for the purpose of taking up tbe bounty bill section 8. Mr. INGALLS. I should be very much gratified, I will say to the The amendment was agreed to. Senator from Illinois, personally if the debate should continue and The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question recurs on striking out the bill be concluded this evening. the section. Mr. EDMUNDS. I do not think there is a quorum here now. Mr. EDMUNDS. On which the yea-s and nays have been ordered. Mr. LOGAN. 0, yes; more than a quorum. The PRESIDENT pro tempot·e. The yeas and nays have been or \ Mr. THURMAN. I a-sk unanimous consent to give notice that on dered. the first opportunity I shall ask the Senate to take up the motion Mr. EDMUNDS. Mr. President, the question now :is on striking submitted by me to reconsider the vote on the bill reported by the out this attorney-fees section. Committee on Privileges and Elections in reference to counting the Mr. INGALLS. Why not let us vote on that f votes for President and Vice-President, and ask the Senate, without Mr. EDMUNDS. That is what I propose to clo, but we have been any debate on my part, to vote on the question pending. off on so many other things that I propose to say a word on that Mr. LOGAN. I see there is no disposition to proceed with this bill. topic. Mr. INGALLS. The bill is under consideration, and the Senator Mr. INGALLS. I beg pardon. · from Ohio made a motion to adjourn, which he temporarily withdrew Mr. EDMUNDS. My honorable friend from Kansas seemed to be at the request of some other Senator. somewhat industrious in saying that he had been tempt.ed with an The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the amendment offer of a retaine1· in this celebrated cause a.nd scorned the bribe. of the Senator from Iowa, [Mr. ALLISON.] Mr. INGALLS. "Industrious," did the Senator say f Mr. EDMUNDS. 1 had risen to speak to that amendment, and, I Mr. EDMUNDS. I saicl I thought the Senator was somewhat in- thought, before the Senator from Ohio did ; but I was mistaken dustrious. , about that. I now wish to say about that amen9.ment that, in my Mr. INGALLS. Did he hear me say that but once f opinion, it is as plain a violation of this treaty as any amendment Mr. EDMUNDS. I said I thought the Senator was industrious, as could be drawn if it were designed for that purpose. he always is, which seemed to imply possibly that some other Senator Mr. ALLISON. The amendment originally proposed by me f like myself who did argue this cause in the Supreme Court of the Mr. EDMUNDS. No, sir; the amendment a-s it now stands and as United States had'positively been guilty of what he styled an indel it was last read, the one I am asked to vote upon. icacy on ihe subject. I do not propose t-o defend here my conduct in Mr. ALLISON. I do not agree to the modification. that particular respect, but only to admit most freely that the Sena Mr. EDMUNDS. It was stated to be so modified. tor's sense of delicacy and mine, if it stood on exactly the same point, Mr. SARGENT. I understand it is not so modified. ·differ a little. Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like to hear the amendment read as it Mr. INGALLS. Did the Senator understand me as impugning his now stands. motlivesf The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair has not said that the Mr. EDMUNDS. I did, certainly; otherwise I should not have al Senator from Iowa accepted the modification. His colleague ac luded to it. If I misunderstood the Senator, then most certainly I. cepted the modification of the Senator from Massa-chusetts. The apologize for what I have already said• . If I did not misunderstand Secretary will read the amendment proposed by the Senator from him, that is another thing. Iowa at tbe right of the Chair, [Mr. ALLISON.] · Mr. INGALLS. The old maxim about "a guilty conscience," I The Chief Clerk read as follows: · make no application of. · And all the remainder of the proceeds of such sales shall be covered into the Mr. EDMUNDS. The Senator is unquestionably aware of all the Treasury of the United States. old maxims about guilty consciences. We cannot contest the palm Mr. ALLISON. Read the original amendment as proposed by me. with him on that score. I admit that. The Chief Clerk read a-s follows : Mr. INGALLS. I made no application to the Senator at all; no And all the remainder of the proceeds of such sales shall be paid into the Treas allusion to him. ury of the United States to the credit of the civilization fund provided for bj" the Mr. EDMUNDS. Very well; I agree to that then. Now, Mr. Pres treaty concluded between the United States and the Great and Little Osage tribe ident, I come to the point, and that is to provide by this bill that of InUians, September 29, 1865, and procla.imed January 21, 1867. what is confessed to be, stated to be, admitted to be a private arrange Mr. EDMUNDS. To that amendment I have no objection. ment between private parties and their counsel shall be made the sub Mr. SHERMAN. If in order I move my amendment. ject of a statute of the United States which commands-and of course, The PRESIDENT pl'O tempore. It is not in order. There are already like all statutes, speaks by its own force-comm:1llds a particular set two amendments pending. The question is on the amendment pro tlement to be made between these partie~; ancl their counsel. · As has posed by the Senator from Iowa to the right of the Chair [Mr. AL been stated over and over again by some of the gentlemen who are LISON] to the amendment of his colleague, [Mr. WRIGHT.] in interest in this thing, the United States is under no obUgation· The amendment -to the amendment was agreed to. whatever to them or to anybody else, except its own officers, about The PRESIDENT·pro ternpore. The question recurs on the amend this business; but, as in all cases of importance where there are pri ment proposed by the Senator from Iowa to the left of the Chair, [Mr. vate interests involved, the United States officials authorize, allow WRIGHT.] Now a further amendment :is in order. private counsel to appear and argue the cause. Now, I venture to Mr. SHERMAN. I cannot move it without striking out some part say that this is the first instance in the history of this country, or any of what has been already adopted. other that haa a. civilization fund aB this treaty talks about, of under.: Mr. EDMUNDS. You can fix it in the Senate. taking by a statute of the United States to arrange and settle a. ques Mr. SHERMAN. I will reserve it till then. tion of this kind. It is wrong, in my opinion, in principle. It would The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is the amendment of be wrong in this case in practice, because, as has already been stated, the Senator from Iowa, [Mr. WRIGHT.] some settlers on these 960,000 acres of land bought their land of the The question was put, and the Chair declared that the noes appeared party that wa-s not promoting this suit and whose interests, there~ to prevail. · fore, were directly involved in resisting it, whose title the State of Mr. WRIGHT. I a-sk for a division. I do not think the object of Kansas and the railway company were endeavoring to protect. the amendment can be understood or it would not be voted down. I Now, this tax or whatever you call it applies to every section and do not understand that there is any difference between my amend every acre of all the lands, no matter under what title claimed or ment and the bill as it stands except that the section as it stands under what title held, and every man, whether he was a party to this leaves it in the power of the Secretary of the Treasury to pay not oiily agreement with counsel, be it what it may, either for a share in the these fees but all other c~sts and expenses, including the costs and spoils or for some compensation to be fixed by some other rule, is re expenses of the suit itself. My object is to confine it to legitimate quired to pay fifteen ceuts an a,cre to this new civilization fund for the purposes. Whether this ought to be paid at all is another question. counsel. Well, Mr. President, if that is jnst legislation~ I do not That is a question of course to be determined afterward. If the ob undm·stand what just legislation is. But I do not want to take up ject is to have the section as objectionabl~ as possible rather than the time about it except to restate the point. -bave it perfected, I can understand the vote. Mr. WRIGHT. I only wbh to make one suggestion. I think the IV-309 4930 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. JULY 28, propriety or impropriety of this section in some form depends upon a do it without any legislation; but as I understand the object of the question that lies back of it, and that is whether the relations of the section, it is that there shall be an assessment made on aU of them United States to these counsel can by possibility be such that ulti and not leave it to those who may be willing to pay and let those mately the Government may be liable for their fees. who may be unwilling to pay avoid it. • Mr. EDMUNDS. It has been stated over and over again by one of Mr. HOWE. If this section be stricken from the bill, will there the gentlemen himself, as we all know the fact is, that the United not be other provisions of the bill which will still require the $1.40 States has no relation to them at all. an acre to be paid T Mr. WRIGHT. That is the very question that I suppose to be in Mr. WRIGHT. Yes, but there is no provision as to how it shall controversy, whether we all do know it as a fact. be disposed of. Mr. CONKLING. May I inquire of the Senator from Iowa what Mr. HOWE. Is it material to the United States whether $20,000 fact he has in mind leading to any question on that subject~ what or $50,000 which is to be paid to counsel shall be taken out of this starts that inquiry f identical fund or some otherT Mr. WRIGHT. This bill recites on its face as coming from the Mr. WRIGHT. Except this, if this fund was paid in without any House that the retainer was at the instance of the United States, direction as to bow it should be expended, it.would be all appro as the bill stands, and I therefore supposed that there-was some war priated to the civilization fund anu all be expended there, and we rant for it. should have to pay the balance of the sum to the attorneys ulti Mr. EDMUNDS. Not a particle. mately. Mr. W:&IGHT. The difficult.y I have in the case is that I think at Mr. HOWE. But if we take the $50,000 out of the civilization the very ea.r1iest moment possible we ought to adopt legislation that fund to pay these fees, we shall have to take out of the ordinary shall secure these settlers in their titles, and we ought to settle it in revenues of the Government a great many times $50,000 for the civ such wa.y as by no fair possibility the United States can be again ilization fund. · · troubled touching these titles or anything in connection with them. Mr. WRIGHT. That raises a question of very much doubt in con Now, if it be true tnat by any possibility the United States are to be nection with this matter, for I have great doubt whether any portion made liable for the fees of these attorneys, and if the settlers them of this excess can by any fair reast>ning be regarded as proceeds of selves are agreed to pay this sum so that the United States Rhall be the land within the meaning of the treaty; but I do not care to get protected, then I think it would be fair that it should be done; but into that discussion at present. My only inquiry was and the only if it be true that there is no state of case where by possibility the doubt I have had is as to the question of fact. If there be no pre Government can be· made liable ever to these attorneys, then this sec tense and no fair ground for claiming that these attmneys can have tion ought to be struck out at once, and there to me is the very turn any claim against the Government, I see no reason for this section. ing point in the case. Mr. EDMUNDS. If the Senator from Iowa will just look at the Mr. CONKLING. May I ask the Senator what part of this bill re Revised Statutes be will see that at least we ought to have an affirm cites that the counsel were employed at the instance of the United ative report from a committee before ""<#e undertake to rEigulate by States. I see at line 12, on page 6, these words: force of law the private rights between clients and counsel and make Said expenses to include the fees justly due t. the attorneys retained at the in everybody pay whether he has retained counsel or not. Section 363 stance of the settlers on said land, with the approval of the .A.ttorney-Generalof the of the Revised Statutes states : United States. The Attorney-General shall, whenever in his opinion the public interest requires Mr. WRIGHT. · That was the language to which I referred. it, employ and retain, in the name of the United States, such attomeys and coun Mr. CONKLING. I should like to inquire of the Senator, as he is selors at faw as he may think necessary to assist the district attorneys in the dis charge of their duties, and shall stipulate with such assistant attorneys and coun an older and better lawyer than I am, whether if he or any other sel the amount of compensation, and shall have supervision of their conduct and counsel appears in a case in which the United States is a party, suing proceedings. by its regular district attorney, there must not be from the court, or Then section 366 provides : from the Attorney-General, or at least from the district attorney him Every attorney or counselor who is specially retained, under the au tbority of the self, some approval. .A. man might go on as anticus cu1•ire to aid the Department of Justice, to assist in the trial of any case in which the Government court; but if he appears as counsel in a caae in which the United States is interested, shall receive a commission from the bead of snch Department, as a is complainant and in which the solicitor is the regular district attor special assistant to the Attorney-General. ·or to some one of the district attorne.vs, as the nature of the appointment may require; and shall take the oath r09,oired by ney of the United States or the Attorney-General, I take it he must law to be taken by the district attorneys, and shall be subject to all the liabilities do it with the approval of his associaoo, or the official superiors of his imposed upon them by law. associate. I did not therefore understand when I heard that lan Then there is another provision that no compensation shall be al guage read before, if it be the language to which the Senator refers, lowed to anybody in any case except in conformity with this reqnire that there was anything there which raised an as&umpBit against the ment and on the certificate of the Attorney-General. Had there been Attorney-General, or against the United States which he represented. any pretense that this law ha.d been complied with and anything else The allegation is that the asstmtpsit was on the part of the settlers thaH. the simple fact stated the other day by the parties in interest and that the appearance in the case of these counsel was with the that the Attorney-General had allowed the counsel of the persons approval of the Attorney-General. who were litigating their claims to appear in a cause in which the Mr. WRIGHT. I have uot suggested and I do not wish to be un United States was a party to the record, as is done every day where derstood as having suggested that it did raise an assu:mpsU on the there are private interests, we should have heard of it most certainly. part of the United States. I was discussing the matter a.s a question The statute requires a public and formal appointment by commission oi fact as to what the actual facts or circumstances were with refer with a stipulated fee and an oath by the party and a certificate, and ence to such a case. that upon it he has to get his pay. There is no pretense whatever Mr. CONKLING. · But, if the Senator will pardon me, when I asked that any such state of facts exists. him what started that doubt in his mind, he said the bill as it came 1\lr. WRIGHT. I trust my friend from Vermont has not under to us from the House recited the fact, and that is what surprised me, stood me at any time io say or intimate that I regarded that there and I al)l trying to ascertain whether there is such recital. was any such retainer here as made the Government liable as matter Mr. WRIGHT. It would be strange to me that there should be a of law, as the case now stands; bot he knows with myself that fre bill of t.his kind passed by the Honse with this language nnless there quently it occurs that although there is no technical legal liability was some claim of some person that there was an ultimate liability. nevertheless claims are pressed and pressed from time to time by I do not assume any such liability, but it is because of a possibility counsel and by other persons upon Congress. It was because I feared that there may be such an ultimate liability that I think we ought that by possibility there might be such a claim here, so reasonably to so frame this legislation as to protect the Government in the end, well founded as that they could press the claim, that I desired if if we can. If there is no liability, then this section had better go out possible to protect the Government. at once; because I agree with what has been said here as to the very Mr. EDMUNDS. Bnt I suggest t.o my friend that this section, in great impropriety of having legislation that is looking to taking care stead of providing against such a difficulty, really raises the liability of and protecting a contract between counsel and private citizens. that we do not want to acknowledge, and we become responsib-le as With that we have nothing to do. a trustee to see that they get whatever these settlers have agreed. Mr. HOWE. I wish to make a suggestion to the Senator. If there Mr. WRIGHT. As it stands; but I think if it is to pass at all it is a liability on the part of the Government of the United States to ought to be in a different form. It ought t-o be changed. I do not say pay these counsel fees, is it not liable to be known eit-her to counsel there is any real necessity for section 8. or to the Government or to bot.h 7 The question being taken by yeas and nays, resulted-yeas 26, nays Mr. WRIGHT. I should t·bink so. 11 ; aa follows: Mr. HOWE. If it is known to both, cannot the Government pay YEAs-Messrs. .A.llison, Anthony, Bayard, Boutwell, Bruce, Cbristiancy, Conk· thet'!e fees without any such legislation as this' If it is known to ling, Cragin, Edmunds, Frelinghuysen, Howe Kernan, Key, McDonald, McMillan, the counsel and not to the Government, cannot the counsel go into Mitchell, Morrill, Ogle~> by, Paddock, Randolph, Ransom, RObertson, Sargent, Sauls· the Court of Claims and make that liability patent to the Govern bury, Wadleigh, an1l \.1/indom-26. ment, and so get their pay and have the account settled T Then in ~AYS-.Messrs. Clayton, Cockrell, Ferry, Harvey, Ingalls, Kelly, Logan, Mc Creerv, S~ermau, Wallace, and Wright-11. what possible view can this section be required f ABSEN r-Messrs. Alcorn, Barnum, Bo:ry, Booth, Burnside, Cameron of Penn .Mr. WRIGHT. Only in this view, tha.t if there should be liability sylvania, Cameron of Wisconsin, <.:onover. Cooper, Davis, Dawes, Dennis, Dorsey1 on the part of the Government these settlers are willing on their part Eaton, Goldthwaite, Gordon, Hamilton, H amlin, Hitchcock, Johnston, Jones OT to pay~~ additional sum so as to protect too Government. Then it Florida, Jones of Nevada, Maxey, Merrimon, Morton, Norwood, Patterson, Sharon would seem Lo me but right and fair to provide that they should pay Spencer, Stevenson, Thurman, West, Whyte, and Withers---a4. . it in this way, for this reason; J understand that these settlen~ can So the amendment of Mr. EDMUNDS was agreed to. 1876. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE~ 4931 Mr. INGALLS. As the price was raised in the bill from 25 to $1. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. $1.40 per acre upon the theory of the assessment of fifteen cents to pay these fees, and as that section is now striken out, I move that FRIDAY, July 28, 1876. the word "forty," where it occurs in the bill in sections 1,. 3, and 4, be. stricken out and "twenty-five" inserted, so that the ·pnce of the The HouAemet at twelve o'clock m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. lands shall be 1.25 per acre. The word occurs in line 14 of section I. L. TOWNSEND. 1, line 4 of section 3, and in line 15 of section 4. The Journal of yesterday was read and approved. Mr. HOWE. I want to ask the Senator one qnestioB; I do not ORDER OF BUSINESS. want to argue the matter. Why is it not just as fair for all the set Mr. HOLMAN. I call for the regular order of business. tlers to pay $1.40 for these lands, o.lthough the Government does not Mr. WHITTHORNE. Under the order made by the House a few pay the counsel fees, as it would be for tlre settlers to pay.$1.40 who days ago-- did not concur in employing the counsel but who ha.d an mterest or Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. I rise for the purpose of resuming the claimed an interest in the land adverse to that which the counsel floor upon a question of privilege. were el!lployed to defend f . . . . The SPEAKER pro tempore. On yesterday, just before the adjourn Mr. INGALLS. Simply because the JOmt resolu~on of Apnl 10, ment, the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. HARRI.S] held the floor upon 1869, provides that the lands shall be sold at the prtce of $1.25 per the contested-election case of Platt vs. Goode, and yielded to the gen acre. tleman from West Virginia, who ~?ved an adjournme~t. Th~ re€?• Mr. El)MUNDS. Within two years. ular order being called for, the priVIleged order for this mormng IB Mr. HOWE. What excuse is there in the act of 1869 for levying the contested-election case, upon which the gentleman from Virginia fifteen cents on those settlers who claim under the railroad title f [Mr. HARRIS] is entitled to the floor. Mr. INGALLS. I have repeatedly stated that that wa.s a volun Mr. WHITTHORN~. I ask the Chair to allow me fQr a moment tary act on the part of the settlers themselves to consent to that im- to call his attention to the wording of the order of the House in ref position for the purposes that have been repeatedly stated. . ereuce to the report from the Comruittee on Naval Affairs. Mr. HOWE. What-is the evidence oftbe assent of that portwn of The SPEAKER pro tempm·e. Certainly. the settlers f Mr. WHITTHORNE. If I remember aright, it was that that re Mr. INGALLS. My statement, so far as it goes. port should be the special order after readiitg of the J ourna.l to-day Mr. HOWE. The Senator states it as a matter of fact himself. "to the exclusion of all other business." Mr. INGALLS. I have stated on this floor that I heard no objec- The SPEAKER pro ternpore. That is the same order which is made · *ion to it from any source whatever. whenever a special order is made by the House; and the Chair will Mr. HOWE. That may be satisfactory evidence. It is suggested say that these special orders are made too frequently. The regular by my friend from New York that there may be some portion of these order this morning is a question of the highest privilege, the right of settlers who claim under the railroad grant who really th(Vlght that a member to a seat in this Honse. they might rely upon the faith of the United States, and therefore it Mr. WHITTHORE. Then I would inquire if, in the event that the W8.8 not necessary for them to employ counsel. contested-election case is now taken up, upon which I understand the Mr. INGALLS. Those persons who claimed under the railroad debate is limited to two honrs, the order to which I refer will then be grant in many cases have paid the railroads for their lands. By this the regular order f bill they are required to pay one dollar and a quarter more. Does The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chn,ir will unquestionably give the Senator think it is just to tB.em impose an additional fifteen to the gentleman the fl~or at that time.for the P.urpose of bring~g up cents qn the price th,ey are pay f to his regular order, whtcb,, however, w~ll be subJect to the q~e.stwn of Mr. HOWE. No; but the Senator proposes to impose fifteen cents consideration. The Cbarr only promises to do that on conditiOn that additional. no question of higher privilege is raised. Gentlemen must under Mr. INGALLS. But I have been overruled by the Senate. stand that at the end of a seasion these privileged questions accumu MI·. HOWE. Not at all. The Senate have simply voted that it is late very largely on the Calendar. not fair to take this trust fund to pay the counsel fees, but they have Mr. WHrTTHOR.NE. I am very anxious to have that report of not yet voted that it is not fair to pay $1.40 for this land. the Committee ou Naval Affairs considered as soon as possible. .Mr. INGALLS. Very well, sir; I do not wish to discuss it. The SPEAKER pro tempm·e. The Chair will. recognize the gentle The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the amendment man for his special order, if there is nothing else in the way. of the Senator from Kansas, [Mr. INGALLS.] Mr. HALE. I wish to state that there is a desire on both sides rep The amendment was agreed to. resented in this case that the report of the Naval Committee shall Mr. INGALLS: Section 5 provides- come up as early a.s possible. That all entries heretofore made of any of said lands, and set aside or canceled The SPEAKER p1·o tempore. The Chair supposes there will be am- by the Secretary of the Interior, on the ground that the said railroads had a prior ple time for its consideration. · grant of said lands, be restored by the said Secretary of the Interior upon the payment Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. I have consented to yield to some gen by each purchaser to the receiver of the pr?per land o~ce the sum of fifte_en cents per acre m addition to the sum heretofore pa1d, to cover m part the expensemcurred tlemen to make formal reports, if I do not thereby lo~e my right to in litigating the title to said land set up by said rai1roada. the floor. The SPEAKER pro tempore. If no objection is made on the part of The action of the Senate renders it necessary to strike out there the House and no demand for the regular order, the Chair will recog mainder of the section after the word " Interior " in line 5. I move nize a few gentlemen for special purposes, leaving the gentleman to strike that out and insert: from Virginia to bold the floor. Subject to any valid adverse claim that may have accrued before or since such Mr. DE BOLT. I rise to make a privileged report. cancellation. Mr; HOLMAN. I think at this stageof the session we should have Mr. EDMUNDS. I do not want to int.erfere with my friend's bill the regular order. any more than is ~bsolutely necessary; but it strikes me that we The SPEAKER p1·o tempore. The regular order being demanded, the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. HARRIS] will proceed. have D.{)W less than a quorum, and in order to ascertain that I move that the Senate adjourn. Mr. HARRIS,of Virginia. I have agreed to yield twenty-fi_vemin Mr. LOGAN. I hope the Senator will withdraw that motion. I utes of the time allotted t6 me to the gentleman from GeOrgia, [Mr. should like, if it be agreeable to the Senate, to have a short executive .flARTRIDGE.] session. Mr. HARTRIDGE not appearing in his seat, Mr. EDMUNDS. The difficulty is, we ha.ve not a quorum. Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. I am willing to yield to the gentleman Mr. LOGAN. There will be no objection to referring some matters from Missouri [Mr. DE DOLT] to make his report. in executive session; I do not ask for any formal vote. Many MEMBERS. "The regular order I" Mr. EDMUNDS. Very well; I will withdraw t~e motion for that The SPEAKER ·pro tentpCJre. The regular order being called for, the purpose. genleman from Vir.ginia [Mr. HARRIS] must P!oceedor yield the floor Mr. LOGAN. I moTe that the Senate proceed to the consideration entirely. The Chan would be glad to recogmze the gentleman from of executive business. . Missouri, [Mr. DE BOLT,] but the regular order being called for the Mr. INGALLS. I am aware that that motion is not debatable; but Chair cannot do it there ru·e but one or two more amendments tha.t will be required to ELECTION CONTEST-PLATT VS. GOODE. perfect this bill. The House resumed the consideration of the contested-election case Mr. EDMUNDS. I have one of coruiderable importance. of James H. Platt, jr., vs. John Goode, jr., from the second congres Mr. LOGAN. My only olrject is to have an executive session be sional district of Virginia. fore adjournment. If the Senate will finish the bill I shall much pre Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. In the absence of my friend from Geor fer that. gia, [Mr. HARTRIDGE,] to whom I agr~ed 1i