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Witnesses: Roger C. Altman, Former Deputy Treasury

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Witnesses: Roger C. Altman, Former Deputy Treasury WITNESSES: ROGER C. ALTMAN, FORMER DEPUTY TREASURY SECRETARY ROBERT RODRIGUEZ, ATF SPECIAL AGENT CHUCK SARABYN, FORMER ATF SUPERVISOR IN HOUSTON PHILLIP CHOJNACKI, FORMER ATF SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE IN HOUSTON SHARON WHEELER, ATF SPECIAL AGENT DAN HARTNETT, FORMER ATF DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF ENFORCEMENT DANIEL BLACK, ATF PERSONNEL OFFICE LEWIS C. MERLETTI, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, TREASURY REVIEW TEAM JAMES CADIGAN, FBI FIREARMS EXPERT RONALD K. NOBLE, UNDERSECRETARY OF TREASURY FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT JOHN MAGAW, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS AFTERNOON SESSION 2:30 P. M. (EDT) MONDAY, JULY 24, 1995 REP. MCCOLLUM: The joint subcommittees on the Waco matter are reconvened. The hearing is reconvened. If we could get some order in the house, as they say, or order in the committee meeting room, we're back aboard at this point. When we recessed a few minutes ago, we recessed for lunch under an understanding that we would have the reservation of time. Ms. Thurman and I each had five minutes on the first round and only real round of questions we have for this panel. But because we had quite a number of other questions to ask that we hadn't gotten to that we thought were very important, we had gotten by unanimous consent permission for each of us to control, in addition to those five minutes, 15 minutes each on our side to conclude the questions of this panel. And with that in mind, I'm going to yield myself at this point such time of my time as I may consume, and I'm going to ask the first question I have to Mr. Altman, who has a plane to catch. And I'm going to go to Mr. Zeliff for an Altman question as well, and anybody on your side, Ms. Thurman, who wants to, so we could let him go. He's been very good to be down here on an extra day. Mr. Altman, I understand from testimony last week that you did not know at any time before this raid on February 28th occurred anything about it, its planning or the fact it was going to happen or anything else about it. But we need for you to say for the record whether you did or not. MR. ALTMAN: Well, that's largely true, Mr. Chairman. But on the Friday evening before the Sunday raid, I was called -- I think I had left the office already, but I was called by my then-special assistant, who told me simply that there would be a major ATF activity over the weekend, that it might generate some press, and that if I saw the press, not to be surprised. I wasn't asked for my approval. I wasn't told Waco or Branch Davidians or anything to that effect. I was told only what I just told you. REP. MCCOLLUM: And you did not inquire and learn any more at that point? MR. ALTMAN: I didn't. REP. MCCOLLUM: When did you first learn of this raid? MR. ALTMAN: Apart from what I've just related? REP. MCCOLLUM: Yes. MR. ALTMAN: I learned on Sunday morning, sometime around 11: 00, I think it was, but I'm not certain, when Ron Noble called me at home in New York and informed me what had happened. REP. MCCOLLUM: Mr. Altman, before the raid on February 25th, Mr. Higgins testified, the director of ATF, last week that he had not met you, had not even personally shaken hands with you. Could you tell us if that comports with your recollection? Did you at any time prior to the 28th of February, 1993, have a meeting or meet with Mr. Higgins? MR. ALTMAN: Well, I had a practice of having biweekly meetings of all the bureau heads, which includes ATF, and the first one of those meetings would have occurred before the raid because we'd been in office a few weeks. I don't recall whether Mr. Higgins attended it; perhaps he didn't. And I wouldn't in any event have had any one- on-one discussions with him. Those were meetings where one typically went around the room and asked for highlights of activities or planned activities. REP. MCCOLLUM: But in any event, you don't recall specifically whether Mr. Higgins was in attendance at that meeting or not, if there was one, and that you do not recall any specific discussions you had with Mr. Higgins before February 28th, or actually meeting him personally. MR. ALTMAN: No, sir, I don't. REP. MCCOLLUM: Thank you. Mr. Zeliff, I'm going to yield to you so we can have you ask Mr. Altman any questions you have. REP. ZELIFF: Mr. Altman, I've read your letter over and over and over again over this weekend, and I want to congratulate you for your gut, as you described it, your gut instinct that something really bad was going to happen after your briefing and that you felt that your boss, Mr. Bentsen, should be notified. And it just seems to me that we're in government here. You know, when we know of things that are going to happen, somebody has to step up and be responsible, and you did do that. I guess my concern would be is once you did this on April 15th, did you follow up between the 15th and the 19th in talking with Secretary Bentsen? You probably talked to him about 10, 15, 20 other things. Was this one of the things on the to-do list that you might have said, "Well, did you get my letter? " MR. ALTMAN: Well, Mr. Zeliff, as I said earlier, I don't remember whether I actually had any oral discussion with Secretary Bentsen on this or whether I didn't, because we did have such a large amount of business between us. But I did not seek to press the point, mostly because I felt completely unqualified to make that judgement. It was my instinct, and I reflected it to Secretary Bentsen because that was the type of relationship I had with him. But I didn't have any basis from which to push the point. You'll note that in that letter, I said that it was also my hunch that if the FBI simply waited out Mr. Koresh, then probably he would concede. And having listened to some testimony this morning of Mr. Rodriguez, he's pretty persuasive to the effect that that particular hunch would have been wrong. REP. ZELIFF: I guess my concern is if I was just walking to the market, and I saw somebody setting a fire, I'd probably see that the proper authorities were notified, and I'd probably stick around and make sure that I'd done everything I could possibly do. But again, I congratulate you for having the instincts that you knew something bad was going to happen; you at least put it on a piece of paper and sent it in. MR. ALTMAN: Thank you. REP. ZELIFF: I have one question for Mrs. Wheeler. You were the publicity person for ATF, and you testified that you made informal or informational telephone calls to radio and TV stations. I guess my question is, and maybe you can help me, you were brought down there to do publicity, or your job was to do publicity, and the word that we heard somewhere along the line is the nickname or the code name of this operation was show time? Could you add something to that, and does that have anything to do with your arranging publicity or having the TV stations available? MS. WHEELER: Absolutely not, sir. First of all, I contacted no radio stations. Second of all, show time was strictly a word that was going to be used to alert everyone that the agents had stepped off the trucks. It was not the name of the operation; it never was the name of the operation. Show time was strictly a word used, so that -- it was a word used that people don't use in regular conversation on a daily basis. They said if they chose that word, when show time was said, that meant that everybody knew that the agents had stepped off the trucks. And that was all show time meant. REP. ZELIFF: I just got -- I'll turn my time back to the chairman, but it just seems to me that it's a poor use of words, in terms of show time, in terms of calling those TV stations, in terms of staging a publicity event that was about to happen to be successful, but unfortunately was not successful. And I just think the words show time ended up getting echoed, probably a bad choice of words to use. MS. WHEELER: It may have been a bad -- REP. MCCOLLUM: Reserving the balance of my time, I want to yield. Ms. Thurman, I understand there may be a question of Mr. Altman on your side, and if there is, we need to get that out so we can leave. MS. THURMAN: And I will at this time yield one minute to Mr. Scott from Virginia. REP. SCOTT: Thank you, and I thank the lady from Florida. Just a couple of questions, Mr. Altman. To put the Waco situation in context, when was the New York City World Trade Center bombing in relationship to these events? MR. ALTMAN: I believe it was the Friday before the initial ATF raid on that Sunday. REP. SCOTT: And were you involved, was the Treasury Department involved in that investigation? MR.
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