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Evidence of the Standing Committee on National 43rd PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION Standing Committee on National Defence EVIDENCE NUMBER 028 Friday, April 30, 2021 Chair: Mrs. Karen McCrimmon 1 Standing Committee on National Defence Friday, April 30, 2021 ● (1300) The Chair: Okay. [English] The Chair (Mrs. Karen McCrimmon (Kanata—Carleton, Mr. James Bezan: I believe we've been through this a number of Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. times already, Madam Chair. I'm sure the format is quite familiar to all members of the committee. [Translation] Good afternoon and welcome, everyone. The motion reads as follows: “That pursuant to Standing Order [English] 108(2), the Standing Committee on National Defence, concerning its study on addressing sexual misconduct issues in the Canadian Welcome to meeting number 28 of the House of Commons Armed Forces, including the allegations against former chief of de‐ Standing Committee on National Defence. fence staff Jonathan Vance and the allegations against chief of de‐ [Translation] fence staff Art McDonald, invite Katie Telford, chief of staff to the Prime Minister, to testify for no less than two hours; that the meet‐ Today's meeting is in hybrid format, pursuant to the motion ing be held in public and be televised; and that the witness be called adopted by the House on January 25, 2021. Committee members to testify within seven days of this motion passing. will be present in person or through Zoom. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather That is being sent to the clerk right now. I believe that if the clerk than the entirety of the committee. checks his inbox, it will be there. [English] Madam Chair, the purpose of that motion is to follow up on testi‐ With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do mony we heard last week, after having Elder Marques at commit‐ the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all tee. He made it very clear that he was instructed by Katie Telford to members, whether they are participating virtually or in person. get in contact with the PCO and with the chief of staff to the Minis‐ ter of National Defence. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), the committee is meeting to‐ day to consider a request received by the clerk and submitted by four members of the committee to discuss their request for addi‐ If we look at this chronologically, we know that on March 1, tional witnesses for the study of addressing sexual misconduct is‐ 2018, we had the former ombudsman for the Canadian Armed sues in the Canadian Armed Forces, including the allegations Forces, Gary Walbourne, try to give evidence to the Minister of Na‐ against former chief of the defence staff Jonathan Vance. tional Defence, Harjit Sajjan, that there was a complaint of sexual misconduct against Jonathan Vance when he was the chief of the Members have all received the letter. I will now open the floor defence staff. We know that Mr. Sajjan pushed away that evidence, for debate. Who would like to speak first to Standing Order 106(4)? but he did pass on the exchange and that discussion with the om‐ I recognize you, Mr. Bezan. Please go ahead. budsman to his chief of staff, Zita Astravas. Mr. James Bezan (Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, CPC): Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank you for calling the emergen‐ Based upon the testimony of Elder Marques, Zita Astravas, cy meeting under Standing Order 106(4). whom we have asked to appear at this committee in the past but has yet to do so, then went to Katie Telford, chief of staff to the Prime I'll move the following motion so that we can kick off debate, Minister, to inform her that this complaint of sexual misconduct and then I'll speak to that motion, Madam Chair. had come forward. That information was then shared with Elder The motion— Marques on March 2. That information was then passed down to the Clerk of the Privy Council. Meetings and conversations, as El‐ The Chair: Mr. Bezan, do you have a copy of that motion? der Marques talked about during his testimony last week, included Mr. James Bezan: We are going to circulate it right now. I be‐ multiple conversations with both the chief of staff to the minister, lieve my staff is sending it to the clerk, and he can circulate it Zita Astravas, and multiple conversations with Katie Telford, chief around. of staff to the Prime Minister. 2 NDDN-28 April 30, 2021 It is very much germane to our study to find out what Katie up and the drafting of the report for our analysts can continue mov‐ Telford was told. How much did she direct this investigation and ing forward. Our committee can consider that draft report at the end ultimately a cover-up? We know that the investigation never took of May and we can get it tabled back in the House by early June. place, that once they made the decision at the Privy Council Office that the information was being withheld, by the middle of March all Madam Chair, I ask that all our colleagues around this table, re‐ of this was swept under the rug. Former Clerk of the Privy Council gardless of political affiliation, will do the right thing in discover‐ Michael Wernick said that he lost the line of sight on this issue con‐ ing the truth of what happened with the allegations back on March cerning sexual misconduct by General Vance. 1, 2018. I ask that we all strive to protect the men and women in uniform, especially those who have been subjected to sexual mis‐ Madam Chair, we need to find out if Katie Telford briefed the conduct, sexual harassment and sexual assault. Prime Minister. We need to find out how much of the information and emails that went back and forth among Janine Sherman and Zi‐ ta Astravas and Michael Wernick, as well as Elder Marques, was At the end of the day, we want to make sure that we are bringing handed in to her office, and directly to her as chief of staff; whether about the change that will make sure that women and men can work or not she ever briefed the Prime Minister; and whether or not she together knowing that they are respected, that they are equals and shared that information with others within the Prime Minister's Of‐ that they are safe in that work environment. Serving in the Canadi‐ fice and the PCO. an Armed Forces is dangerous enough as it is in the tasks that we expect them to undertake; the last thing that they should ever have We know that there were briefing notes prepared by both Mr. to be fighting is sexual misconduct within the forces. Wernick and Janine Sherman of conversations they had. In all these emails and briefings, they always talked about sexual misconduct, Thank you. quite contrary to the Prime Minister's saying that he didn't know it was a #MeToo allegation until afterward. We need to make sure ● (1310) that we get down to the bottom of this information. The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bezan. The only way we can do that, Madam Chair—and I believe my colleagues will agree—is that we have to have Katie Telford appear We'll go on to Mr. Baker, please. at this committee for two hours. This isn't something new. We're not setting any precedent here, because we know that Katie Telford Mr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.): Thanks very much, appeared to discuss the WE scandal previously in this Parliament. Madam Chair. ● (1305) I would like to speak to what Mr. Bezan just said. He spoke She has said on the record that she takes responsibility for all about doing the right thing by the members of the armed forces. I'd staff in the Prime Minister's Office. She needs to appear before us, like to speak to that a little bit. explain what information Zita Astravas gave her on on March 1 and March 2, what she did with that information, and if she did not in‐ Every day, Canadian Armed Forces members across the globe form Prime Minister Trudeau, why she didn't tell him that some‐ risk their lives to support us and our allies, partners and friends to thing this egregious had occurred and was not followed up on. uphold values that we hold dear as Canadians: peace, freedom and She needs to tell us why this information was withheld from the respect for the dignity of all people. Prime Minister. Was it because of circumstances that were happen‐ ing at that time, including the Prime Minister's own issue at that Our government is aware that it has not lived up to its responsi‐ time? There were others issues happening within the Prime Minis‐ bility to protect members from misconduct. Over the past months, ter's Office. We know that on March 8, Vice-Admiral Mark Nor‐ we have heard from Canadian Armed Forces members affected by man was charged by the RCMP over an investigation directed by sexual trauma and sexual misconduct. We have heard from them at the Prime Minister's Office itself. There are a lot of things that were this very committee. They have shared their heart-wrenching ac‐ at play there. We need to get down to the bottom of how this had an counts, and we have carefully listened to them.
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