Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 23 MARCH 1965

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

2762 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

TUESDAY, 23 MARCH, 1965 tion Ltd. for the second sale and Elder Smith Goldsbrough Mort Ltd. and Dalg~ty & New Zealand Loan Ltd. for the thud Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, sale. (b) £1,849 16s. 5d. to Elder Smith Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair Goldsbrough Mort Ltd. £4,156 9s. 8d. to at 11 a.m. The Australian Estates Company Ltd. £2 306 13s. 3d. to Mactaggarts Primary Pr~ducers Co-operative Association. The ELECTORAL DISTRICT OF MIRANI estimated commission of £2,929 13s. 6d. DATES FOR BY-ELECTION for the third sale would be payable:­ £1,464 16s. 9d. to Elder Smith Goldsbrough Mr. SPEAKER: I inform the House that Mort Ltd. £1,464 16s. 9d. to Dalgety & the dates in connection with the issue of New Zealand Loan Ltd." the writ for the election of a member to serve in this House for the electoral ( 3) "Yes, the Department .cc;mld condu~t district of Mirani will be as follows:- its own sales with the provlSlon of addi­ tional staff but it is considered the matter Issue of writ-15 April, 1965. is better handled by the selling agents Date of nomination-22 April, 1965. for the following reasons:-(a) Because Polling day-15 May, 1965. of their branches throughout Australia the selling agents are able to extensiv~ly Return of writ-11 June, 1965. publicise the sales and a_re able to pro~~de a very convenient service to prospec.Ive STATE TRANSPORT ACTS purchasers. This applies particularly . to interstate enquiries. (b) The sellmg NOTICE OF MOTION FOR DISALLOWANCE OF agents are in a better position to co~d~ct PROCLAMATION enquiries over the blocks and the distnct generally. As a matter of interest and in Mr. SPEAKER: I draw the attention of no way as justification of the action taken hon. members to the notice of motion I mention that there was a precedent for standing in the name of the Leader of the Opposition to disallow the proclamation the Government's action in that the dated 9 March, 1965, under the State Trans­ Queensland Government Central Queens­ port Acts, 1938 to 1943. I point out that land Estates appointed selling agents for since the notice was given, in passing the the disposal of certain of the lands of the Industrial Law Amendment Bill Parliament Queensland British Food Corporation in has ratified and confirmed the proclamation 1956. The Honourable Member was a in question. I am of the opinion that it Member of that Government." is not now competent for the Legislative Assembly to disallow, by resolution, the proclamation under the provisions of DRIVER'S LICENSE TESTING CENTRE IN Standing Order No. 37A. WYNNUM-MANLY AREA.-Mr. Newton, pur­ suant to notice, asked The Minister for Mines,- QUESTIONS As there are over 40,000 people residing COMMISSION ON LAND SALES, FITZROY in the suburbs of Belmont, Gumdale, BASIN LAND DEVELOPMENT SCHEME.-Mr. Tingalpa, Capalaba, and in the Wynnum­ Lloyd, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister Manly-Lota area, will .h~ give consider?­ for Lands,- tion to setting up a dnvmg test centre m ( I) How much commission has been either the Wynnum or Manly dis~r~ct to paid to selling agents in relation to free­ assist residents in these areas desmng a hold sales of land under the Fitzroy Basin test now or in the future? Land Development Scheme? Answer:- (2) Who were the selling agents at "Following a review of drivers' licence each sale and how much commission has issuing centre requirements for the metro­ been paid to each selling agent? politan area in 1964, it was approved (3) Why is it not possible for the that two additional testing centres be Department to conduct its own sales and established. One of these is to be erected arrange its own conveyancing? on a site at the corner of Cavendish Road and Stanley Street East, Coorparoo, and it is intended that this testing centre serve Answers:- all of the suburbs in the city of Brisbane ( 1) "£8,312 19s. 4d. for first and second area on the south side of the river, includ­ sales and an estimate of £2,929 13s. 6d. ing Wynnum, Manly and Lo~a. It is not for third sale." proposed to consider. ~t this stage the establishment of a dnvmg test centre at (2) (a) "Elder Smith Goldsbrough Mort either Wynnum or Manly. Mu~h of Ltd. and The Australian Estates Company Capalaba is not in the city of Bnsbane Ltd. for the first sale. The Australian area and persons residing in the area out­ Estates Company Ltd. and Mactaggarts side the city of Brisbane can J;le teste~ fo,~ Primary Producers Co-operative Associa- licences at the Cleveland Police Statwn. Questions [23 MARCH] Questions 2763

APPOINTMENT OF ASSISTANT MEDICAL (2) If so, what is the number of build­ OFFICER, AYR DISTRICT HOSPITAL.-Mr. ing sites that will be available on this Coburn, pursuant to notice, asked The location? Minister for Health,- (3) Does the number of building sites As the resignation from the medical available in this area compare favourably staff of the Ayr District Hospital of the with the number of applications received Assistant Medical Officer, Dr. Ross, for Housing Commission homes? approximately six months ago has resulted in the Medical Superintendent, Dr. ( 4) If so, is it intended such homes will Beumer, being required to work exces­ be for purchase and/ or a number of them sively, attending to approximately one allocated for rental purposes? hundred out-patients daily, performing surgery and attending to in-patients in Answers:- both the general and the maternity sec­ ( 1 ) "This area is being developed by tions of the hospital, when is it anticipated the Cairns City Council at the cost of the that a replacement for Dr. Ross will be Commission, and when the sites are in appointed? order consideration will be given to calling tenders for houses." Answer:- (2) "39." "Although the Department of Health endeavours to assist a Hospitals Board to (3) "Yes." engage doctors, it is the responsibility of the Board to advertise for staff when a ( 4) "Sites will be available for selection vacancy occurs. As far as can be ascer­ by applicants who desire to purchase tained the last advertisement for a resident Commission houses erected to designs medical officer for Ayr Hospital appeared which they nominate. Houses erected by in the Medical Journal of Australia in the Commission on a group basis would November, 1964. The private practitioners be available for purchase in the first of Ayr co-operate with the hospital staff instance and, if not sold, would be rented." and I feel sure if an approach were made to them the Medical Superintendent would receive their support until a resident medical officer is engaged. In the mean­ TEMPORARY ACCOMMODATION, CAIRNS time, the Hospitals Board should re-adver­ WEST STATE SCHOOL.-Mr. R. Jones, pursuant tise the position." to notice, asked The Minister for Education,- ( 1) Are temporary classrooms under the school at present being utilized at the SEPTIC SYSTEM, MAIDAVALE STATE SCHOOL. West Cairns Primary School? If so, why -Mr. Coburn, pursuant to notice, asked The has this become necessary, when this Minister for Education,- school was completed as recently as the Has he approved of the request of the commencement of the 1964 school-year Maidavale School Committee that the and officially opened by him on February removable material in the septic system at 6, 1965? McDesme State School, now closed, be (2) When will extra and permanent transferred to Maidavale school and used classrooms be constructed to alleviate this in the installation of septic system at that position? school? If not, why not? (3) Do similar conditions exist at any other State school in the Cairns Electorate? Answer:- " Because of possible technical difficulties involved in the request of the Committee, Answers:- action is being taken to request the Depart­ (1) "Temporary accommodation under­ ment of Works to investigate the applica­ neath the Cairns West State School building tion for the removal of the septic system is in use for one (1) class. A compre­ from the closed McDesme State School hensive investigation was made by the to the Maidavale State School. When the District Inspector of Schools in June, 1963. report and estimate of cost is received, Information then received from the parents this proposal will receive consideration." of school age and pre-school children in the district, together with an allowance for home building in the area, indicated that the enrolment in 1965 would be 210. ERECTION OF HOUSING COMMISSION As the enrolment at present is 292, it HOMES, CAIRNS.-Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to appears that the area has grown more notice, asked The Minister for Works,- rapidly than the citizens had anticipated." ( 1) Has the Housing Commission early intention of calling tenders for the erection (2) "As trends in enrolment at the of homes on allocated building sites, Cairns West State School are now apparent, bounded by Clarke, Hoare and Birch early action will be taken to obtain from Streets, Cairns? the head teacher details of the anticipated 2764 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

enrolments for the 1966 and 1967 school INCIDENCE OF TUBERCULOSIS IN CATTLE, years. When details of the anticipated ATHERTON TABLELAND.-Mr. Davies for Mr. enrolments are received, a plan and esti­ Wallis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked The mate of cost will be prepared for the neces­ Minister for Primary Industries,- sary number of additional permanent In view of the increased cattle popula­ classrooms. No indication can be given tion of the Atherton Tableland due to at present, however, as to when work is cattle fattening properties being stocked likely to commence on the construction of permanent additions." from outlying stations, are tests being continually conducted to see if there is (3) "No other primary school in the any incidence of tuberculosis? If so, how Cairns Electorate is using a temporary many cases have been detected? classroom, but this has often been the pattern in other centres where new schools Answer:- have been established. It is refreshing to hear the Honourable Member acknowledg­ "Dairy herds on the Atherton Table­ ing the need for more classrooms when land are submitted to a regular programme only a few weeks ago he was telling the of testing for tuberculosis and the incidence people of Cairns how the city had lan­ of this disease is remarkably low. Approxi­ guished under this Government. I would mately half of the 550 dairy herds on the remind him again that since 1957, over Atherton Tableland, representing some £500,000 has been spent on schools in 15,000 animals, are submitted to the tuber­ the city of Cairns to provide for better culosis test annually. Over the period of educational facilities and the needs of a five years from 1960 to 1965 only 18 growing and developing city." animals giving positive reactions have been detected, representing an overall incidence of less than 0·03 per cent. Beef cattle running on the Atherton Tableland are PUBLIC ADDRESS SYSTEM, CAIRNS-KURANDA not tested as a routine. However, records RAIL MOTOR SERVICE.-Mr. R. Jones, of cattle slaughtered at meatworks treating pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for cattle from the Atherton Tableland and Transport,- adjacent areas together with returns com­ Has further consideration been given to piled in relation to stock slaughtered at or has provision been made this year for Atherton district slaughteryards, reveal that a public address system to be installed on there has been a steady decline in animals the Cairns-Kuranda scenic railway daily affected from 0·08 per cent. in 1961 to tourist railmotor? If not, will he again 0·02 per cent. in 1964. In both beef review the position with a view to instal­ and dairy cattle it can, therefore, be taken ling this facility to assist tourist apprecia­ that the incidence of tuberculosis on the tion of this half-day tour? Atherton Tableland is at a very satisfac­ torily low level." Answer:- "This matter was raised previously by the Honourable Member for Tablelands ECONOMY SURVEY, ATHERTON TABLELAND. and on February 12, 1964, I informed him -Mr. Davies for Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant that while there would not be any technical to notice, asked The Minister for Primary obstacle to the installation of a public Industries,- address system in the rail motor, it was considered most undesirable that either the In view of the preliminary findings of guard or the driver of the rail motor should Dr. W. 0. McCarthy on the economic be distracted from their responsibilities, problems of the dairy and maize farmers particularly that of ensuring safe working, on the Atherton Tableland, will the recom­ by being required to deliver the com­ mendations to be made after an additional mentary-further, that such employees survey in May, 1965, supersede those of are not trained in the making of announce­ the Government investigation made in ments over a public address system. How­ 1964? ever, as an alternative to the installation of a public address system in the rail motors working the Cairns-Kuranda tourist Answer:- service, it was proposed in conjunction with "There have been no findings as yet by the Queensland Government Tourist Dr. W. 0. McCarthy on the economic Bureau to have a descriptive pamphlet problems of the dairy and maize farmers prepared for distribution to passengers on the service. The pamphlet was duly pre­ on the Atherton Tableland. There have pared and on August 25, 1964, I forwarded been some general comments on what seem a copy to the Honourable Member for to be possible problems in the area. The Tablelands. A supply of these brochures survey being carried out by the University was forwarded to the District Superin­ of Queensland is viewed as being comple­ tendent at Cairns, in addition to a supply mentary and supplementary to certain to the Director-General, Queensland issues raised in the report of the Com­ Government Tourist Bureau, Brisbane." mittee of Enquiry appointed in 1963." Questions [23 MARCH] Questions 2765

TOBACCO INDUSTRY STABILISATION SCHEME. CONSTRUCTION OF HoUSING COMMISSION -Mr. Davies for Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant HousES AT MoUNT IsA.-Mr. Inch, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Primary to notice, asked The Minister for Works,- Industries,- ( 1) Is there a large number of appli­ In view of the commencement of the cants for Housing Commission homes at 1965 tobacco sales at Mareeba on Tues­ Mount Isa? If so, what is the number? day, March 16,- (2) What is the reason for suspending ( 1) What percentage of leaf was sold the construction of Housing Commission and is this clearance satisfactory? homes at this centre, especially as finance (2) Have the prices received to date has already been allocated for it? been satisfactory? Answers:- (3) Is it evident that the stabilisation ( 1) "At February 28, 1965, the Clerk plan will safeguard the tobacco farmers of the Court, Mount Isa, was holding 33 during the 1965 season? applications carrying points priority for rental homes and 5 applications of nil Answers:- priority. There were also approximately ( 1) "The percentage of tobacco leaf 7 5 enquiries from persons considering sold after the first four days of the current purchase of Commission houses. How­ Mareeba tobacco sales was 87 per cent. of ever, no figures are at present available to the leaf offered. Such a percentage would show how many of these applications be quite unsatisfactory if the balance were remain effective with the disturbed indus­ to remain unsold but the stabilisation trial conditions prevailing in the town." scheme provides for its sale." (2) "Approximately half the houses in (2) "Under stabilisation proposals agreed the latest contract were to be built in to by Commonwealth and State Ministers, expectation of sale but, to say the least, it the Commonwealth Government has cannot be considered that conditions in undertaken to ensure that a quota of 26 recent months have been conducive to the million lb. of tobacco leaf will, if avail­ saving of deposits or the undertaking of able in Australia, be purchased by manu­ long term commitments for home owner­ facturers at not less than an average ship or even for the payment of rent on minimum price of 125d. per lb. This rental houses. We could not proceed to average has been translated into a grade a point where completed houses could be and price schedule which provides for a standing idle and subject to deterioration minimum price for all acceptable grades and accumulation of interest charges. When of tobacco leaf. No grower who produces, Mount Isa returns to normal and resumes within his quota, tobacco leaf of a quality its interrupted progress the Governm7nt which falls within the grade schedule will will review the question of proceedmg receive less than the minimum price for with the construction of houses." the appropriate grade in the schedule and no tobacco leaf has been sold so far this year at less than the minimum for its NEW STATE SCHOOL AT DUCHESS.­ grade. Since the Australian crop now Mr. Inch, pursuant to notice, asked The being sold is expected to be below 26 Minister for Education,- million lb. all acceptable leaf from this Have plans for a new school at Duchess crop could be sold at or above the been approved? If so, when is it expected minimum." the construction of the school will be (3) "The tobacco stabilisation plan as commenced? agreed to by Ministers should definitely safeguard tobacco growers during the 1965 Answer:- selling season and during each of the "It is anticipated that plans and estimate subsequent three seasons." of cost for the provision of a new school building and single teacher's quarters at SITES FOR HOUSING COMMISSION HOUSES Duchess will be completed at an early NEAR VIRGINIA GoLF LINKs.-Mr. Melloy, date. Consideration will then be given to pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for approval of this project, but no indication Works,- can be given at this juncture as to when (1) Are plans in hand for the acquisi­ construction work is likely to commence." tion of land in the vicinity of Virginia Golf Links for Housing Commission pur­ poses? If so, what area is to be acquired? HOUSING COMMISSION RENTAL HoUSES, ROCKHAMPTON.-Mr. Thackeray, pursuant to (2) When is it anticipated that the land notice, asked The Minister for Works,- will be available for house construction? ( 1) How many Housing Commission Answers:­ homes for rental were built at Rockhamp­ ton during each of the financial years, (1) "No." commencing 1957-1958 up to and including (2) "See (1)." 1963-1964 and in 1964-1965? 2766 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

(2) How many applicants are awaiting the progress of the sales and the posi~ion rental homes at Rockhampton and what is being kept under very close scrutmy. are their points ratings? I have no doubt that the Commonwealth Government will ensure that its under­ Answers:- taking is met." (!) "Of 331 dwellings provided by the Commission in Rockhampton since June 30, 1957, 317 were home ownership and RossviLLE-BLOOMFIELD RoAD.-Mr. Adair, 14 which were not sold were rented. Of pursuant to notice, asked The Premier,- these 14 houses 9 were built in 1957-1958, As the Bloomfield residents are con­ 1 in 1958-1959 and 4 in 1960-1961. Over cerned at the possible closure of the ply the past 5 years there has been an annual mill operating in the area owing to the average of 17 vacated State rental houses bad state of the road section between available for re-letting." Rossville and Bloomfield, will he take up with the Administrator of the Cook Shire (2) "Two at 100 points; one at 80 the urgent necessity for the necessary points; two at 60 points; twenty-nine at repair work to be carried out on this 40 points and 135 with nil priority." section at an early date?

TOBACCO GROWING IN MAREEBA AREA.­ Answer:- Mr. Adair, pursuant to notice, asked The "The Government is aware that the Minister for Primary Industries,- present condition of the Rossville-Bloom­ As concern has been expressed by field Road is not in accordance with the tobacco growers in the Mareeba area at the high standards of road facilitit:s it has set large percentage of leaf unsold at the and achieved, but I would pomt out that present sales, are the interests of the the physical nature of the terrain which farmers being closely watched by respon­ this road traverses presents a number ~f sible officers of his Department? problems to which even the recent expendi­ ture of substantial sums of money has Answer:- not provided an adequate answer. The Honourable Member may rest assured that "I am aware of the concern felt by a close liaison will be maintained between tobacco growers in the Mareeba area at the our road-making engineers and the slow rate of progress of the tobacco sales Administrator of the Cook Shire in and the large percentage of leaf unsold endeavours to produce the satisfactory during the first few days of the sale. A new system of selling has been introduced result that is sought." as part of the stabilisation proposals agreed upon by Commonwealth and State Ministers and a little time must be allowed STRENGTH OF POLICE FORCE IN BRISBANE. for all parties connected with the sales to -Mr. Bennett, pursuant to notice, asked The become familiar with the new procedures, Minister for Education,- Under the stabilisation proposals the Com­ ( 1) By how many is the metropolitan monwealth Government has undertaken to Police Force under approved strength at ensure that a quantity of 26 million lb. of the present time? tobacco leaf will, if available in Australia, be purchased by manufacturers during each (2) What immediate action does he of the four years commencing with 1965. intend to take to bring the metropolitan All leaf within the 26 million lb. quota Police Force up to strength so as to which falls within an agreed grade schedule provide adequate police protection for is to be purchased by manufacturers at an Brisbane? average price of not less than 125d. per lb. for the whole of Australia. A schedule setting out the minimum price applicable Answers:­ to each grade has been drawn up and is (1) "Four." already in operation. The Commonwealth (2) "The position will be adjusted when Government has appointed an arbitrator to transfers currently under review have been ensure that the correct grade is placed on any leaf which may be subject to dispute. finalised." Under this scheme every grower who pro­ duces, within the quota, tobacco leaf which is of a quality covered by the grade QUESTIONABLE PRACTICES IN SALE OF schedule will be assured of receiving at EDUCATIONAL BooKs.-Mr. Sherrington, pur­ least the minimum price applicable to suant to notice, asked The Minister for the quality of leaf he produces. He may Justice,- receive more under competition. Officers In view of his Answer to my Question of the Commonwealth Department of in October last concerning the sale of Primary Industry as well as a senior officer educational books, wherein he stated that of my Department were in Mareeba during the matter of contracts with door-to-door the whole of last week in order to observe salesmen was under review and in addition

L_ __ Personal Explanation (23 MARCH] Supreme Court Acts &c., Bill 2767

that examination of the Victorian and On a television programme known as "Meet Tasmanian laws relating to this subject the Press" on Channel 7, Brisbane, on Sunday was being made,- night last, the hon. member for South Bris­ ( 1) What progress has been made in bane said, inter alia, "Tom Aikens gets away this matter? with murder in the House. He even uses obscene language. The Speaker lets him get (2) Does the Government intend to away with it. He has never sent him out take the necessary action to curtail undesir­ since I have been in Parliament." able practices indulged in by door-to-door Apart from the fact that both those state­ salesmen? ments are deplorably untrue, they were said in such a way and in such circumstances as Answer:- would tend to create an unfavourable and (1 and 2) "This matter is still under undesirable public image of the conduct of consideration." proceedings of this Parliament. It is a matter for sincere regret that this Assembly and I were so befouled and besmirched. Whilst I MINISTERIAL STATEMENT can, and will, treat the statements of the hon. member for South Brisbane with the contempt ERROR IN ANSWER TO QUESTION they deserve, I think that this House, con­ Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis-Minister for scious of the preservation of its dignified Education) (11.23 a.m.), by leave: In response traditions, should take some action to cleanse to a question by the hon. member for itself of the odious filth with which the hon. Bulimba, Mr. J. Houston, M.L.A., on member for South Brisbane so frenetically 17 March, dealing with the strength of the bespattered it. Police Force, I replied to part 4 of question 6 Mr. Bennett: How weak can you get! as follows- "With the intake of constables on the Mr. AIKENS: How foul can you get? A 31st instant, the Police Force will be up to cesspit is clean compared with you. approved strength as provided in the Estimates." Mr. SPEAKER: Order! If the hon. mem­ ber for Townsville South continues in that I have since been advised by the Deputy strain, I shall have to ask him to retire from Commissioner of Police (Mr. Donovan) that the Chamber. the date should have read "30 June" and not 31st instant". Mr. AIKENS: Would it be the first time The true position is that after the intake you have done that? on the 31st instant the strength will still be Mr. SPEAKER: Order! under the approved strength, but the training plan for the balance of the financial year should bring our actual strength up to the SUPREME COURT ACTS AMENDMENT approved strength. BILL I regret the error, which was made in good faith on information supplied to me and take INITIATION IN COMMITTEE this opportunity to correct it. ' (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, Greenslopes, in the chair) PAPERS Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (BoweD­ The following papers were laid on the Minister for Justice) (11.40 a.m.): I move­ table:- "That a Bill be introduced to amend the Orders in Council under- Supreme Court Acts, 1861 to 1963, in The Forestry Acts, 1959 to 1964. certain particulars." The Southern Electric Authority of The Bill is a very short one. It is proposed Queensland Acts, 1952 to 1964. to the Committee by way of extra caution to cure any arguments or doubts that might result from the appointment of an Acting PERSONAL EXPLANATION Chief Justice. Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (11.37 It has been the practice during the absence a.m.), by leave: On a television programme of the Chief Justice to appoint the Senior known as "Meet the Press" on Channel 7 Puisne Judge as Acting Chief Justice. When Brisbane, on Sunday night last, the hon: the Chief Justice is absent from the State and member for South Brisbane said inter the Senior Puisne Judge is ill, this makes the alia-- ' position somewhat complicated. Mr. Bennett: I got under your skin, eh? There is a dormant commission which provides that, in the absence or incapacity Mr. AIKENS: Mr. Speaker should give of the Governor and when there is no orders to have the hon. member's seat Lieutenant-Governor, as at present, the Chief fumigated after every sitting. In view of Justice is to administer the government of the that uncouth and uncultivated interruption State. If the Chief Justice is absent, then I shall start again. ' the next senior judge who is not under 2768 Supreme Court Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

incapacity administers the Government in State of Victoria, and slightly greater than terms of the dormant commission. The Bill that of judges in the three other States. provides for the appointment of an Acting It is proposed that the salary increases take Chief Justice so as to accord, as far as effect as from 1 March, 1965. possible, with the provisions of the dormant commission. l.VIr. Walsh: You are not suggesting that they should be the same as in New South The Bill authorises an Acting Chief Justice Wales, are you? who is appointed to exercise all the powers and authorities of the Chief Justice while he Dr. DELAMOTHE: No. acts during a vacancy in the office of the Having regard to the various factors Chief Justice, or while the Chief Justice is previously referred to, it is considered that incapable or is absent from the State, or the proposed salaries are fair and reasonable. for the period during which the Chief Justice I commend the Bill to the favourable administers the government of the State, with consideration of hon. members. salary at the rate payable to the Chief Justice. Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ Mr. Hanlon: Does that include the powers of the Administrator? Leader of the Opposition) (11.46 a.m.): I think there will be general acceptance by Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. The Bill also members of the Committee of the first pro­ removes all doubts and clarifies the position as posal, having regard to the Minister's state­ regards previous appointments of Acting Chief ment that there should be a removal of any Justices. It provides, also, for increases in doubt as to the present position of Acting the salary of the Chief Justice and of the Chief Justice. At present the Chief Justice Puisne Judges. is, I understand, overseas and, as. has been pointed out, it has been the practice for the It is proposed that these salaries be now Senior Puisne Judge to act in his absence. fixed at the rate of £7,500 per annum The present situation has arisen. becaust; ~f for the Chief Justice and at the rate of the immediate facts of the Chief Justices £6,750 per annum for Puisne Judges of absence from the State and the untimely the. Supreme Court (including the Senior death of Sir Roslyn Philp. Pmsne Judge). At present the Chief Justice receives a salary of £7,000 per annum I do not want to take up the time of the and the Puisne Judges, including the Senior Committee in referring to the last-mentioned Puisne Judge, salary at the rate of £6,400 person except to say that Queens_la~d i~ the per annum. poorer for the passing of such a distmgmshed jurist. He was a very colourful and out­ In relation to the increases in salaries spoken man with a tremendous fund of com­ it is important to keep in mind that it mon sense, and he did not hesitate to direct is ~ tradition of the English judicial system, the attention of the authorities to what he which was bequeathed to the Australian considered to be features of our law that States as well as to the Commonwealth needed amendment. He was quite courageous that the judiciary should be independent in his outspoken attitude at times on, per­ of t?e Government. This independence is haps, the actions of Crown witnesses and particularly ens_ured by the giving to the of witnesses appearing for the defence, too, JUd?es of ~nancial security, and consequently for that matter, but all in all he was a their salanes are fixed by Parliament and very prominent person in this State apart are not _dependent upon any appropriation from the contributions that he made on a by Parliament as ordinary Government legal basis. He was active in many outside expenditure normally is. spheres which is rather in contrast to what The determination of the salaries to be generaiiy happens as far as the judiciary is paid to judges is not easy, and it is difficult concerned. There are one or two members to apply a system of relativity as might of the judiciary who accept cert~in public be done in certain other spheres. Although appointments that inyol':e them m con!ro­ the judges' salaries may not be related to versy but, in the mam, JUdges lead a fairly the salaries of senior officers of the State sheltered existence in their relationship to Public Service, it might be mentioned that public affairs. the salaries of permanent heads of depart­ I suppose it would be fair to say that Sir ments and officers of equal classification were Roslyn Philp associated himself very increased recently. Some relativity might actively with many public affairs in the State also be considered in relation to standards and I should like, very briefly and perhaps established in earlier years, comparable inadequately, to express our appreciation. of salaries paid by the Commonwealth and other the contribution he made over a long periOd States, and, to a limited extent, a comparison of time. with general standards of professional remuneration outside the Government service. It seems to me sensible that we should repair any omission from the Act to !?re­ The remuneration of our Queensland judges vent doubt continuing at the present time as proposed in this Bill is materially less than and in the future. This Bill seems to be the remuneration of judges in the more merely one of many that . the Minister. has populous State of New South Wales, slightly brought down in comparatively recent times less than that of judges in the more populous to correct conditions which apparently have Supreme Court Acts [23 MARCH] Amendment Bill 2769

been permitted to exist for a number of point is that at that time the Commonwealth years without their constitutional validity Government, having determined that there being tested. I do not know whether or not should be a very substantial increase in the the Minister envisages a situation where there salaries of High Court judges and those in may be some challenge to the actions taken the Federal bankruptcy jurisdiction, set off a by an Acting Chief Justice, nevertheless, chain reaction in the various States. By this this seems a sensible provision to make and principle of comparing like with like every I offer no objection to the proposal. State was obliged to follow the pattern set In regard to the second proposal, namely, by the Commonwealth. to increase the salaries of judges, I should Let me take a hypothetical case to show like to have the opportunity of examining it the effect of those salary increases. Say before members of the Opposition express a the increase in the salaries of Federal judges definite policy on the matter. At this stage on that occasion represented the payment of I should like to say that in 1963, when an additional £12,000 or £13,000 a year. there was a similar proposal before the With 70 or so State judges it would mean Chamber, the Government elected to grant the payment of an additional £70,000 a year a flat increase of £500 a year to Supreme to the judges in the various States, each of Court and District Court judges. There has whom would then enter a higher income tax been no evidence to indicate that circum­ bracket, with the result that the amount stances have so changed as to justify the collected in tax from those State judges on exclusion of District Court judges on this the increased payment of £70,000 would occasion. After all, the principal difference more than recoup the Commonwealth in their respective duties is that the District authorities for the additional salary allocated Court judges have limited jurisdiction, but to judges in the Federal jurisdiction. There­ that is taken into account in determining their fore there is not any cost to the Common­ remuneration when they are appointed. wealth Government. Dr. Delamothe: If I may interrupt, the What I am concerned about is that the Bill of which I gave notice this morning­ Commonwealth Government has set a very the District Courts Act Amendment Bill­ high pattern in the salaries of most of its covers that point. senior officials. I think it has created a good deal of discontent, and certainly it has resulted Mr. DUGGAN: All right; that removes the in a very high percentage of tall poppies in the need for comment on that point. I should Commonwealth Service. On the basis of be wasting the time of the Committee can­ comparing like with like we reach the posi­ vassing arguments on it if the Minister has tion where many of the senior officials, in­ anticipated what I was going to say. cluding judges, are getting extremely high The second point is that it is rather inter­ salaries. It is argued, of course, that we esting to observe that either the Press reports have to compare the emoluments of judges can be very incorrect or that there has been with what leading counsel can earn at the a change of heart in a particular matter. Bar. Secondly it is argued that they should On 5 March there was a Press release­ be placed in a position of independence so something which is generally pretty accurate that they can carry out their functions -regarding the Government's discussions in impartially and in the interests of everybody Caucus. It was to the effect that recom­ concerned. mendations for increases in judges' salaries Since those increases were granted there had been rejected because of the general has also been a very material alteration in economic situation-the drought and the the protection of the security and inde­ Mt. Isa industrial dispute. Apparently it pendence of judges by the introduction of was deemed expedient by some Government a judges' pension scheme, which provides members to resist these rather large increases them with a 40 per cent. pension after 15 at the present time. years' service. The age factor does not apply to them as it does to members of the Public It is not that I feel that the Chief Justice Service. Generally speaking, the longevity of or other judges should not be adequately judges is certainly not below the average paid. It would not be unreasonable to say in the community. So we have this high that in most circumstances it would be fair earning power being continued over a long to compare like with like in these matters. period of time, which is not the case with We do that in the lower wage rate structure. most practising barristers or members of When unions apply to the Industrial Com­ the Public Service. Judges retire on a 40 per mission they invariably draw a comparison cent. pension which, in the case of the Chief with other States on the like-with-like Justice. amounts to well in excess of £3,000 principle. I have no great objection to that a year. No-one can say that that is a procedure except that sometimes the lead miserable sort of pension, nor can anyone given by some authority is followed slavishly argue that judges are not reasonably well by the other States. That occurred many provided for. years ago when very substantial increases were given to members of the High Court Increases set off a chain reaction in the by the Commonwealth Parliament. I do community, and it seems to me that, in recent not know how many judges there are in the times, once a higher pattern is established in Commonwealth jurisdiction at the present salaries at the Commonwealth level it is fol­ time, but there are quite a number. The lowed by an agitation to the appropriate 91 2770 Supreme Court Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

heads of Government in the States for the margin is affected for those who are increases. We therefore have a constant receiving higher salaries. If the Minister battle continuing and we do not seem to be was sufficiently candid or frank, he would getting any stability in our cost structure. admit that that is exactly what happens. It For those reasons it is not very difficult to may take a few months for agitation in understand why there is so much industrial respect of relativity to start in the discontent among those who have to spend other States, but it will take place. so much, and argue so convincingly, for After action is taken in the other spheres, increases of £1, £2, or £3 a week. By a there will be another application in Queens­ stroke of the pen, we seem to be able to land, and so the whole matter gets out of grant judges and others £500 or £600 a year hand. -very quickly and easily. It is time that I want to know how these nice, round somebody took some action to stabilise the sums of £500 and £1,000 are arrived at. At spiralling salaries that many senior people the lower salary levels unions have to pro­ in the community are getting. I know that duce extensive arguments on the Consumer we have to pay for brains, and that possibly Price Index, and a great deal of supple­ many men in high positions, including mem­ mentary information relating to rents, food­ bers of the judiciary, could earn a higher stuff costs, and all the other attendant costs income outside the Public Service or out­ associated with the maintenance of a family side the Supreme Court or the High Court, and the running of a home, but such par­ as the case may be. . However, the fact ticulars do not seem to be required when remains that they are not bound to accept we are dealing with people in positions of the positions. They voluntarily accept the authority. offer of the position. The remuneration is I do not want it to be thought that I am good, and their conditions of employment­ making an attack on our judges. I agree if that is the appropriate term-certainly that we must have a high standard of men put them in a sheltered and honoured in the judiciary, and I think that, generally position in the community. That is highly speaking throughout Australia, we have. desirable. They deserve their honoured Certainly their integrity and probity have position, with its attendant responsibilities. seldom, if ever, been questioned. In the However, it is a purely voluntary accept­ main they have been outstandingly successful ance by the people who take the position at the Bar. Of course, there have been and accept the remuneration. notable exceptions. There have been occa­ It is time for stabilising action by Aus­ sional allegations that a barrister has secured tralian Governments concerning top-salaried a judgeship earlier than he would have if employees. Their salaries are getting out of another party had been in power, simply hand. It is interesting to note that 100 because of political affiliations. I do not years ago the salary of the Commissioner think that these should be party-political for Railways was fixed by statute at £200 a appointments. In the record of appointments year. On a basis of relativity he should throughout the Commonwealth-this applies now be getting £20,000 a year. The Minister to all forms of Government-occasionally may be able to indicate the position of judges there has been a suggestion that, all things 80 or 90 years ago, because they then being equal, or sometimes, all things being received relatively high salaries compared perhaps less than equal, a measure of pre­ with the salaries paid to other people in the ference has been accorded to someone who employment of the Crown. may be personally favourable and acceptable I should like an opportunity to examine to the Government of the day. Having said the position in other States. It seems that that, I repeat that I have every confidence in whenever adjustments are made the High the members of the Supreme Court Bench in Court judges say, "Prior to the increases of the work they are doing and in the respect in £500 a year in Queensland we enjoyed a which they are held by the community. margin of so much over judges in the other I shall reserve general comment on the States." This immediately starts a cycle. suggested salary increases until I have seen That is my complaint. If we could stabilise the Bill. salaries for a while and get costs down, we would be doing good for the Australian Mr. BENNETI (South Brisbane) (12.2 economy. We would also be creating a p.m.): When introducing the Bill the Minister good deal of satisfaction in the minds of said that it was necessary to meet the position other employees in Australia who are con­ when there is no Chief Justice or Senior tinually faced with rising costs. Puisne Judge resident in Queensland. It I believe that I should make these remarks might be desirable, although I do not think today because it is time that somebody in it would be altogether reasonable, to amend authority-at State or Commonwealth level the Act for that purpose alone. -made a definite attempt to stabilise the Along with my Leader, I wish to pay high costs which are a feature of the Aus­ great respect to the late Sir Roslyn Philp, tralian economy at present. Inflation has whom I admired greatly and who did much gripped us to such an extent that it may be to adorn the Bench and build up the prestige damaging our future prosperity. I do not and tradition of the law in Queensland. His think that particularly large increases are passing was a tremendous blow to this State. justified, because as soon as they are imple­ He had tremendous energy, vitality, and mented a chain reaction is started because personality. He would be the first to say, Supreme Court Acts [23 MARCH] Amendment Bill 2771 however, that the processes of the law must Campbell's predecessor. I share my Leader's go on in spite of the unfortunate death of opinion that we in Queensland have been leading jurists from time to time. Although particularly fortunate in the calibre of our it may seem callous to the untrained mind, judges, in spite of the background of some it is only common sense to the keen judicial appointments. As a matter of fact, I am mind that we should immediately appoint referring to the predecessor of Mr. Justice someone to take his place. In saying that, I Campbell, whom I admire so much, who is am not being at all disrespectful. I make Mr. Justice Sheehy. He is now in Brisbane that suggestion knowing that the late Sir and is the senior of the puisne judges. Roslyn Philp, being the man of principle that Is the Government, by introducing this he was, would insist that that be done. Bill, reflecting on Mr. Justice Sheehy? Under The present situation appears to be an the law as it stands, he is entitled to be the artificial one created by this Government. Acting Chief Justice. I am not reflecting Why does not Cabinet make an appointment on him at all; I am merely saying that it is straight away to fill the vacant position of unnecessary to introduce that special legisla­ Senior Puisne Judge? We know that the tion. I am not trying to belittle Mr. Justice Chief Justice at the moment is overseas on Sheehy. He is entitled, under the present his leave entitlement. We must have another set-up, to be Acting Chief Justice unless some Senior Puisne Judge anyway, so why delay other judge is appointed Senior Puisne Judge. the decision? Is not the Government game I am saying that such an appointment should to face up to the decision? Is it torn between be made without any delay, and the judge so the varying interests directed from outside appointed will automatically become Chief this Parliament in its indecision as to whether Justice during the absence overseas of Sir or not it should elevate an existing member Alan Mansfield. Let the hon. member for of the Bench, whether it should appoint a Aspley ask the Government if special legisla­ practising barrister from outside the court tion is being introduced to avoid Mr. Justice altogether, or whether it should appoint one Sheehy's automatic appointment as Acting of the District Court judges who has dis­ Chief Justice. The hon. member should tinguished himself in District Court juris­ know that such an appointment would follow diction? automatically, and that this legislation gives If all of those problems are besetting the Cabinet the right to appoint somebody else. Government, why has it to bring down legis­ Dr. Delamothe: It does not do anything of lation to assist it to delay its decision the sort. rather than have a meeting to meet the problem, and, after facing up to it and dis­ Mr. BENNETI': That is how I understand cussing it, appoint the person it thinks is the Bill from the way in which the Minister most suited and fitted for the task? This is introduced it. simply what has been going on at Mt. Isa. There has been delay, procrastination,-- Dr. Delamothe: When you read the Bill, you will understand the position better. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. BENNETI': Is the Minister assuring Mr. BENNEIT: There has been fear in me that under this Bill Mr. Justice Sheehy grappling with the task, and the Government will automatically become Acting Chief is doing the same thing in this instance. Justice? What is the reason for the delay in the Dr. Delamothe: I am not assuring you of appointment, if there is to be one, of a new anything. Senior Puisne Judge? At the moment, in accordance with the rule of seniority Mr. BENNEIT: No, of course the Minister followed in the profession, and under existing is not. legislation, in the absence of the Chief Justice the senior puisne judge-in effect, the next Dr. Delamothe: I am correcting your mis­ senior judge-fills the office. He assumes apprehension. the responsibilities of the Chief Justice, and Mr. BENNETI: I cannot advance my the judge who happens to be in that position argument any further if the Minister is pre­ now is Mr. Justice Sheehy, who has been pared to assure me that the Bill gives legis­ brought to Brisbane from the Central District lative authority to the practice and custom following recent appointments. under which Mr. Justice Sheehy would auto­ Incidentally, the appointment to the Central matically become Acting Chief Justice during District position was a very good one. The the absence of Sir Alan Mansfield. If the appointee is a sound lawyer who will cer­ Bill is not designed to do that and gives tainly enhance the prestige and traditions Cabinet power and authority to appoint of the practice of law in Queensland. someone else, my arguments are valid. Is the Minister prepared to give me that assurance? Mr. Campbell: Is that a reflection on his predecessor? Dr. Delamothe: You will take a completely different view when you see the Bill. Mr. BENNEIT: I do not mind sensible and genuine interjections, but I hate the Mr. BENNEIT: It is quite true that I will guttersnipe stuff that comes from the hon. have a better understanding of the Bill when member for Aspley. I dismiss his interjection. I see it. Apparently the Minister is not I am not reflecting at all on Mr. Justice prepared to give me any assurance. Obviously 2772 Supreme Court Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill he does not appreciate the authority that themselves into immediate action and did Cabinet will be given under the Bill, so I shall something about turning the first sod _for have to content myself by waiting till I am their construction. The courts are ternbly able to read and study it. It is a great shame congested at the moment. Supreme Court that the hon. member for Windsor is not sittings are held in courts that were set Attorney-General because I am sure he would aside for the District Court, and one gets not leave us in such a state of confusion. into a poky little room and almost rubs He would have the intestinal fortitude and shoulders with the jury. The court was ability and understanding to give hon. mem­ not constructed to be used for jury purpos~s bers some assurance on these matters so that and extra chairs have to be brought m we would know what is being done. If, as because the jury cannot sit in the . seats I understand the Minister, he did not say that were set aside for them. It IS all that the senior of the Puisne judges auto­ very unsatisfactory. However, I will n~t matically becomes Acting Chief Justice, develop the subject any further bec~u~e It Cabinet could, under the provisions of the is not really connected with the prmciples Bill, be given authority to appoint some of the Bill. other person to that position. The only other thing that I have !O Mr. Walsh: Has not Cabinet got that say is that I believe that any delay m authority now? brinaing the strength of the Supreme Court Ben~h up to the number of judges approved Mr. BENNETI: I think it has, to be quite is not doing justice to the Court or to frank. I think Cabinet can appoint any the State, just as delay in i~creasing ~he judge or acting judge, as it wishes. I cannot strength of the Police Force IS not domg understand the purport of the legislation, justic'e to the State or to the Police Force. unless it is designed to insult some of the existing members of the judiciary. Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12.14 p.m.): I followed the Minister's introductory speech Dr. Delamothe: It is designed to protect very carefully, and I have followed very existing members of the judiciary. carefully the discussion that has taken pla7e Mr. BENNETI: I am glad to have the since. The Minister made a statement 111 Minister's assurance on that point. reply to an interjection, and . I want to be quite clear about wh::t he smd. _I under­ I should like the Minister for Justice to stood him to say that thrs measure, m effect, indicate whether or not it is intended to protects the right of judges at present fill this position with a judge who has occupying a position on t_he Supr:eme Court already been appointed, whether it is intended Bench in so far as their appomtment t::> to elevate to the Supreme Court Bench one the position of Senior Puisne Judge IS or two of the distinguished members of the concerned. District Court who have done much to pioneer the reintroduction of that court in Dr. Delamothe: To the position of Acting. Queensland, or, alternatively, whether it is Chief Justice. intended to appoint from the practising Mr. WALSH: Acting Chief Justice? members of the Bar a person to fill this position temporarily. I assure him that Dr. Delamothe: Yes. I would not be available, in any case. Mr. WALSH: Not Senior Puisne Judge? I should like the Minister to explain the real reason for changing the existing set-up. Dr. Delamothe: No. As the hon. member for Bundaberg said Mr. WALSH: First of all, I should like by interjection, Cabinet has the right to to say that some amendm~~ts ~ay be appoint an acting judge at any time-it regarded as machinery or admmistratlve ones has done so on numerous occasions-and on which we do not have to bother about it does seem that perhaps this provision making any critical or contn;JVersial com­ has been introduced into the amending Bill ments. The Minister has outlmed some of so that it can be levelled in, as it were, the reasons for amendments in relation to with the introduction of the salary increase the position of Acting Chief Justice an~ the referred to by my Leader. necessity, in some respects, to v;:thdate In any case, I urge the Government not appointments that have been made m the to waste any time in appointing a member past. I understood the Minister to say that. to fill the vacancy on the Supreme Court Coming to the provision dealing ~ith Bench. In spite of the economies involved judges' salaries, I state now that I _am. against there is a large list of cases still to be the proposal. I do not see any JUShficati~:m heard, and the main reason for this is the for it no matter how the Minister may bmld insufficiency of the numerical strength of up hi~ case on the basis of like with like in the judiciary. Of course, automatically any other State. That argument is _no _longer bound up with that is the inadequacy of tenable in this Parliament, nor IS It any the accommodation in the Supreme Court. longer tenable in the Industrial Commission. Although I understand that the Minister There was a time, of course, when the Indus­ and the Government have made some trial Court, or the Industrial Commission­ arrangements for the construction of new call it what you like-was inclined to follow courts, it is about time that they galvanised that submission. But apparently in recent Supreme Court Acts [23 MARCH] Amendment Bill 2773 times it has departed from it, which would came to power no longer can the judiciary indicate that in the past some of its decisions be regarded as independent. If Cabinet were more than likely based on a policy of or some other phase of public administration appeasement rather than on realities. It is is not satisfied with the pronouncements or plain humbug to say that one can determine declarations of judges, ways and means are these things, whether they be for the judiciary found to appoint another tribunal to indicate or any other section of the ·community in to the public that the judges were wrong. this State, on the basis of like with like How can the judiciary be expected to work when compared with similar positions in any under those conditions? The Minister knows other State. Such a policy does not work what I am referring to. out, and never has. It amazed me that in the television pro­ For many reasons, particularly under gramme mentioned earlier today even the Labour Governments the costs of living in hon. member for South Brisbane did not Queensland were much lower, no matter exercise his rights when he was asked a from what angle they were viewed, than question about the judges declaring what was those in other States. It is true that they done in the case referred to by the police have increa·sed substantially since this was tantamount to committing a fraud on Government has been in office. It is also the court. There was some question as to true that the Government has done nothing whether the hon. member for South Brisbane to protect the interests of the lower-paid sec­ was quite right in that respect. I think he tions of the community. was inclined to water it down a little. The Does anyone here see any justification very people who asked him the questions for bringing these measures down consistently were representatives of a newspaper that and regularly as has been done since this had published that very statement and Government has been in office, on each quoted the remarks of the three judges­ occasion substantially increasing the salaries Mr. Justice Stanley, Mr. Justice Hart and of judges and top public servants, whilst at Mr. Justice Lucas. the same time men with large family com­ If the Minister wants Parliament and the mitments have to struggle through their people to feel that the judiciary is inde­ unions to get a few shillings out of the Indus­ pendent, and is expected to continue to be trial Commission? They have to go to much independent, of politicians or any other trouble even though statistics and formulas section of the community, he had better prepared by independent authorities, such as recommend to his Government that it refrain the Commonwealth Statistician, indicate from taking such action as it did in that case clearly that a rise has taken place in the after three judges, without any hesitation, cost of living. In spite of that they still emphatically declared, although not altogether encounter arguments put up by the employers in the same language, that a fraud had been and others in an endeavour to justify the committed on the court. It was shocking view that no increase should be given to the that the Government should attempt in any worker or his family. way to set up an inferior tribunal to question I think it is a little bit off the beam, as the pronouncements of the three judges of it were, to continually ask Parliament to the Full Court. grant these substantial increases to the top The Minister will have to do more than structure of the judiciary and departmental simply make a plea in justification of the officers, or whoever they may be. I ask increases that the judges are being paid these hon. members to contra·st what is now being very handsome salaries for the purpose of done with the ridicule to which members of keeping them independent. The Government Parliament are subjected if they seek an had better do something about its own increase. Does the Minister realise that record. over a period of about nine years the salaries of parliamentarians have increased by £148? A few other undesirable features seem to have crept into the administration of justice Mr. Hewitt: Ten shillings. in this State. Of course, at this stage of the Mr. WALSH: All right, add the 10s. We legislation I cannot deal with them in detail. may as well make it 10s. Hd. But that is I come now to the question of the Senior the plain fact, and additions to the cost Puisne Judge. My recollection is that Cabinet of living for judges would be no more than can exercise its prerogative in making such those for members of Parliament. In fact, an appointment. I think it has been exercised it is almost certain that they would be greater by Cabinet in the past. I do not know that it for a member of Parliament, so I do not feel needs any specific law on the matter, or that I should automatically approve these whether the Minister is bringing in something Bills that are so regularly submitted inviting now that will cover any decision that the us to grant large increases in judges' salaries. Cabinet may make when it decides who shall In introducing the Bill the Minister used be the Senior Puisne Judge. the old argument that the judiciary must be Dr. Delamothe: This Bill has nothing independent of the Government. How fre­ whatever to do with the appointment of quently have we heard that? How widely the Senior Puisne Judge. is it accepted? How desirable it is that that should be so. But is it so? That is the Mr. WALSH: I am pleased to have that question I ask this Committee. I am assurance from the Minister. I realise that inclined to think that since this Government the Minister is merely asking leave to bring 2774 Supreme Court Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

in a Bill at the moment. Maybe there are Over the years this Chamber has been many things that should be in the Bill but very tolerant in its attitude to members are not. Before he gets the leave we have of the judiciary. That fact should convey the right to argue at this stage as to some to the public that hon. members of this of the things that should be in the Bill. Parliament accept the principle that the Cabinet exercised that prerogative on more judiciary should be completely independent than one occasion. I remember that there of any section of the community. However, was some controversy when Mr. Justice Neal there have been occasions when members Macrossan was appointed Senior Puisne of the judiciary have made rather scathing Judge. Many stories were circulated, quite remarks about members of Parliament. On a lot of them false. The true story has one occasion I had to draw attention to a not been related whenever I have heard statement made many years ago by a then the matter discussed. However, as the member of the judiciary. That is all the Minister says there is nothing in the Bill more reason for my emphasising that hon. dealing with this matter, I do not wish members of this Chamber have been to canvass it other than to say that Cabinet particularly tolerant over the years that I exercises its prerogative on the basis outlined have been here-not so much tolerant as by the hon. member for South Brisbane. understanding of the position of judges. The issue is clear-cut, that is, having regard The Minister may justify his statement at all times to the fact that the occupant that there should be a substantial salary of the office is a person who would be increase for all members of the judiciary, but entitled to appointment to the position. I I remind him that throughout this State­ suppose any member of the judiciary would and the Government must know this-there be entitled to the appointment because all are thousands of people living under very judges are appointed to the Bench on the difficult conditions because of the drought. same basis-as members of the Supreme They do not know where their next pound is Court judiciary. If Cabinet were to adhere coming from. to the ethics of the legal profession I suppose When workers go to the court they are there would be nothing whatever to prevent faced with the argument, "The economy of their appointing as the Senior Puisne Judge the State cannot afford to pay these a person completely outside the judiciary increases," or, "Now is not the right time." provided he was sworn in as a Supreme Court The Railway Department has lost something judge. like £1,000,000 in revenue, and many other The High Court has been referred to. losses of income and earnings will be incurred It was the practice for many years, in by other sections of the community as a appointing the Chief Justice of the High result of the Mt. Isa dispute. In this case Court, not to appoint a sitting member of it does not matter. The Government can come along and legislate a salary increase that court. of £10 a week for members of the judiciary, Mr. Smith: That was the case with the without producing any evidence whatever last one-Sir Garfield Barwick. that it is justified. Mr. W ALSH: The position is exactly as I repeat that in the last 10 years increases amounting to only £148 per annum have been the hon. member for Windsor says, but he granted to members of the Legislative will agree that there were a few departures Assembly. It can be said that that is a mat­ from the principle. ter for Parliament itself, and that Parliament Mr. Smith: And in Victoria, too. decides those things. That is true, but this Government has not helped much in the Mr. WALSH: That is so. However I am matter. Some members of the Parliamentary referring particularly to the High Court. Salaries Inquiry Committee have said that I expect the legal gentlemen in the Chamber we should be doing this job in an honorary to know more than I about the code of capacity. I hope that the Minister is satis­ ethics of the judiciary and the legal profession. fied that the extra £500 will assist to allow I imagine they have one. judges to be regarded as independent and not subject to outside control. Mr. Smith: The hon. members of that Like his predecessors, the Minister made profession have one. all sorts of explanations about the huge back­ log of cases set down for hearing in the Mr. W ALSH: I am glad to have that courts, particularly the Supreme Court. assurance. Before this Government came into power, there were 11 judges in Queensland. Since The fact remains that it was accepted then at least six District Court judges have that no person who was to be appointed been appointed, and there have been extra to that very high and honourable position appointments to the Supreme Court bench. should be seeking favours. Any suggestion But we still seem to be going backwards. that a sitting member should be canvassing Possibly the Minister is in a position to say for the higher position was altogether whether many of the phoney writs that are contrary to the accepted ethics of the issued from time to time are calculated in judiciary, or, for that matter, the legal the backlog of cases or in the delay in hear­ profession as a whole. ing cases. There must be quite a number Supreme Court Acts (23 MARCH] Amendment Bill 2775 of cases that have been sitting on the desk, is that they be guilty of graft and corruption. as it were, for four, five, or even six years. I think the hon. member should be made The Court may not be to blame for to withdraw that remark. that; it may be the fault of the legal pro­ fession or their clients. It is difficult for The CHAIRMAN: Order! I thank the hon. me to understand how the position is worsen­ member for South Brisbane for drawing ing when eight or 10 more judges are now attention to that point. I ask that the sitting in the Supreme Court or in the Dis­ implication of graft and corruption be trict Court than when the previous Govern­ withdrawn. ment was in power. The statements made Mr. AIKENS: If any stigma arises, I will, from time to time are not enough to satisfy in accordance with your ruling, Mr. Hooper, litigants who have to pay substantial sums withdraw it. I remind the Committee, how­ of money for the services of their legal repre­ ever, that I am under no obligation to sentatives. crawl and grovel to judges, as apparently I hope the Minister will get his teeth into the hon. member for South Brisbane is. this matter and that there will be some I do not care what they think of me, because improvement in the near future. It is not I do not have to appear before them. beyond his capacity. We know him well enough to realise _that if he chases a thing, Mr. BENNE'IT: I rise to a point of he gets results. It rs the feeling of the people order. I am not normally sensitive, but the outside that it is not enough for the Minister remarks concerning crawling and grovelling to simply recite a prepared memorandum are an insult to the judiciary, not to me. that is put into his hands; he must read it. I think that the prestige of the judiciary But there must be some substantial answers should be maintained, and remarks of this forthcoming to justify the excuses that are nature should not be bandied round. put up to warrant the continuance of the backlog, and of the mounting number of The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ cases that still remain to be heard. All I ber for Townsville South will accept the can do now is wait until I get the Bill to explanation of the hon. member for South see if there is anything further of interest Brisbane. in it which I ·ahould discuss. Mr. AIKENS: If it was an explanation, Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (12.35 I will accept it. I say without any p.m.): I understand that the Bill provides, equivocation, knowing that 99 per cent. of among other things, for substantial salary the people of Queensland are of the same increases for Supreme Court judges. If one opinion, that the horrible and mounting toll is able to judge from the notices of motion of the road is due entirely to the weak­ ta):>led by other Ministers this morning, it kneed attitude of Supreme Court and District wrll be followed by Bills that will provide Court judges. for substanital increases for District Court judges and top-ranking public servants. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I remind the I intend to oppose the Bill, and I shall hon. member that I have already asked him do so on two premises. In the first place, to refrain from drawing this type of inference with respect to the judiciary. If I shall oppose it because the Government, he continues in that strain and doe·s not whilst distributing the taxpayers' money with confine his remarks to what the Minister a lavish hand to judges, is more than said when introducing the Bill, I shall have niggardly or parsimonious-indeed, con­ no alternative but to ask him to resume his temptibly lousy-when distributing money to workers, particularly the black-shirt workers. seat. Only recently the Government reluctantly Mr. AIKENS: It has been ruled by not went before the Industrial Conciliation and only the present Speaker but by other Arbitration Commission and agreed that Speakers-and quite correctly-that when tradesmen in Queensland should be granted Parliament is considering salaries to be paid a paltry increase of £2 2s. 6d. a week. to public servants-and judges are public In the second place, I shall oppose the servants-hen. members are at liberty to Bill because I think that if Supreme Court discuss the work that those public servants do and District Court judges want salary for the salary that they are about to receive. increases, they should not come to Parlia­ I appreciate your position, Mr. Hooper, ment for them; they should submit a list because you are bound by Standing Orders to the drunken and dangerous drivers of the which provide that nothing worth while can State who will subscribe liberally to any be said about members of the judiciary increases in salary for their friends on the except on a substantive motion. Bench. Let us get down to tin-tacks, without casting Mr. Dean: A very good idea. any aspersions on anybody. I would be the last to cast any on the hon. member for South Mr. AIKENS: The hon. member for Brisbane. Let me say that the interrogators Sandgate says, "A very good idea." on "Meet the Press" on Sunday night made him look like the galah that he is. I do Mr. BENNE'IT: I rise to a point of order. not want to rub salt into the wound. Let I think that is a direct insult to, and an me, in all fairness, set out the duties of indictment of, the judiciary. The suggestion Supreme Court judges, as the Bill deals with

cI 2776 Supreme Court Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill judges. As the hon. member for South I wanted to say that you are one of the Coast interjects, some judges sit only two days chairmen of this august Assembly who sub­ a week, sometimes not even that. Let us be merge their own individual and personal quite frank and clear on this point. The duties views in carrying out their duties strictly and of a Supreme Court judge are, first of all, not impartially in accordance with Standing to make the law but merely to administer the Orders. Unfortunately, you chopped me off law as determined by Parliament, merely to before I could say that. interpret the law as determined by Parlia­ It is the rule in the House of Commons­ ment, and, when it comes to common law. you will see it referred to in "May," which to interpret the common law in accordance is the parliamentary Bible; you will see it with the traditions and the precedents that referred to in the pages, of our own have been established. "Hansard"-that one can criticise a sentence If we are to debate that particular point after a judge has imposed it. On the other -I think I should be allowed to do so­ hand, one cannot criticise a judge for his l believe that I am right in asking: Are conduct in the court or his conduct of the our judges interpreting the law as passed by case; if one did so, one would be interfering Parliament as we think they should interpret with the freedom of the judiciary. I simply it? draw this comparison and leave that particu­ lar angle of it. Today, if a magistrate finds Mr. Bennett: Huh! a man guilty of dangerous driving, the man Mr. AIKENS: I know, of course, that will be very lucky if he gets off with a fine the hon. member for South Brisbane, who of £100 and the suspension of his licence for gave a snort typical of him, like an old sow 18 months. wallowing in a bog, thinks that by doing so Mr. Bennett: That is not right, either. we will be interfering with the freedom of the judiciary. No-one wants to interfere Mr. AIKENS: I am talking about the with the judiciary, but I think it is about magistrates in Townsville, who at least are time that someone let the judges know that trying to do their job in reducing the awful we disapprove of some of the things that toll of the road. I do not know what they have done. magistrates anywhere else do. However, when a man is found guilty in the Supreme Court The CHAIRMAN: Order! Obviously the of dangerous driving, even if the jury has hon. member for Townsville South was not found him not guilty of manslaughter and in the Chamber, or was not listening, when not guilty of dangerous driving caming death, the Minister introduced the Bill. He is right more often than not he receives a suspended away from the Bill itself, which deals with sentence and his licence is suspended for a two points: the first relates to the appoint­ period of three months or six months. I ment of an Acting Chief Justice; the second think I am right in suggesting that, for a relates to judges' salaries. I ask the hon. start, our Supreme Court judges might try member to keep to those two points in to emulate the job that is being done by some making his speech. magi·strates, particularly the two magistrates Mr. AIKENS: Thank you, Mr. Hooper. in Townsville, in attempting to reduce the In dealing with the increase in salaries, I toll of the road. am following the lines of a ruling, given not Mr. Bennett: Are you crawling to the only by the present Speaker but also by magistrates now? former Speakers, that we can discuss what these people do, or should do to earn Mr. AIKENS: I do not have to crawl to increased salaries. ' anybody because I pay my own way. I do not spew sectarian bigotry all over the place. The CHAI!RMAN: Order! That is quite I am a friend of everybody, in this Chamber in order provided the hon. member relates as well as outside of it. I am a country lad, his argument to the salaries. a simple seeker after truth. Everybody Mr. AlfKENS: Very well. I have no respects me and does everything he possibly doubt that you are acting strictly in accord­ can to help me. If I was going to pay a ance with Standing Orders, although you may comoliment to any magistrate, I would pay not be acting in accordance with your per­ the best compliment of all to a man whom sonal ideas; but you, as a very good Chair­ I have never met, Mr. Kearney of man-- Toowoomba. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I do not know We have, unfortunately, inherited several whether the hon. member intends to reflect systems from Great Britain. They may have on the Chair-- been good systems when they were first estab­ lished. We have inherited the medical system, Mr. AlfKENS: No, I am paying you a we have inherited the legal system, and we compliment. have inherited the judicial system; and we The CHAIRMAN: . but I assure him all know-if the hon. member for South that I am acting according to Standing Orders Brisbane wants to know anything about them relating to the introduction of a Bill. at any time, with the generosity for which I am noted I will tell him all about them­ Mr. AIKENS: If you had let me com­ that at one time the judges in England were, plete my remarks, I would have paid you and still are, known as members of the a very flowery and well-deserved compliment. King's Bench. They were the King's men. Supreme Court Acts [23 MARCH] Amendment Bill 2777

They were appointed by the King to carry six judges of the High Court come to out the wishes of the King, and their verdicts Brisbane they occupy the chambers of six were framed in accordance with the wishes Queensland Supreme Court judges. What and desires of the King. Later on, of course, the six Queensland Supreme Court judges do with a smattering of democracy and freedom, when the High Court judges are here occupy­ they became what we are asked to believe­ ing their chambers and their courts, goodness impartial judges. But because they were only knows. I have asked this question of King's men, and because they were doing the Minister for Justice-not the present what the King wanted them to do and making incumbent of the office but his predecessors­ the judgments that the King required, on many occasions, and the Minister has naturally they insisted on a number of perks replied with the same old rigmarole that one for themselves. So under our judicial bloke goes on circuit, another fellow does system-this may not be known to every­ something else, and someone goes down to body; I am sure the hon. member for South the Gold Coast to see that the fish and chips Brisbane is abysmally ignorant of it-a judge are of good quality, and so on. For all the is under no obligation to sit on the bench. weeks that the High Court judges are in He can refuse to sit on the bench for as Brisbane they are occupying the courts and often as he likes and for as long as he likes. the chambers that belong to this Government and to the individual Supreme Court judges. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. At least our Supreme Court judges could do member is again getting right away from a little more work if this Government would the Bill. say to the Federal Government, "We are sick Mr. AIKENS: No. I am dealing with and tired of carrying your High Court on what judges do for the money they earn. our back. Provide your own High Court courtrooms and chambers in Brisbane so The CHAIRMAN: Order! So long as the that our Supreme Court judges can carry on hon. member gets back to judges' salaries with their work while your six High Court I will be quite happy. judges are in Queensland." Of course, they come up only in the salubrious winter Mr. AIKENS: I am trying to justify what months. We do not see High Court judges I said at the outset of my speech, namely, up here in the summer-time, no more than that I was going to vote against this Bill for we see politicians in pink shorts in Towns­ two reasons. One reason, as I said-and I ville in the summer-time. think I am entitled to say it-is that I do not I thank you for your tolerance, Mr. think judges earn the money we pay them Hooper. I know how circumscribed you are at the present time, and I certainly do not by the Standing Orders, traditions and customs think they are entitled to any increase in of this Assembly, which, incidentally, we salary. Surely I am justified in putting before this Committee the reasons why I do not inherited from Great Britain. Indeed we have think they are earning the money we pay an 18th century judicial system imposed on them. a 1965 modern age. That is the trouble with it. I could go into what you might term Now, we have at the end of the year what to be extraneous matters. I could go into is known as "long" leave and in that respect the tendency of some barristers, even barris­ the members of the judiciary work nearly ters in this Chamber, to claim that judges as big a racket as the tutors at the university, are not exercising as often as they should who have 22 weeks a year on full salary doing their right to take cases away from the jury nothing. I understand that the members of so that they can decide them purely and the judiciary have about 14 weeks a year on simply on little tiddly-winking points of law, full salary, doing nothing. quibbles and funk-holes. But I will not !VIr. Bennett: How many weeks a year do digress in that manner. you have? I intend to vote against this Bill as a protest on behalf of all the decent, respect­ Mr. AIKENS: I work 24 hours a day. able and reputable people in Queensland I am available 24 hours a day and, in the against the weak-kneed attitude of judges in 21 years I have been in this Parliament I the sentences they impose on drunken killers have never had a holiday. My services are and dangerous drivers. always available to the people. Fancy an interjection like that coming from the hon. Mr. HUGHES (Kurilpa) (12.52 p.m.): I member for South Brisbane, who boasts fre­ would not suggest that this Bill will receive quently that he earns £6,000 a year-it would the general acclaim of all hon. members, but be more now-at the Bar! Is he attending I feel that I echo the thoughts of many on to his parliamentary work as he should? Is both sides of the Chamber when I say that he giving a 24-hour day service to his electors we have before us a Bill of the type which while he is appearing in court and picking from time to time is necessary in the light of up 6,000 quid a year on the side-and, changed circumstances. At the same time, incidentally, letting down the tyres of anyone it does excite some interest in matters con­ who happens to park a car in his parking cerning the judiciary and the application of place at Inns of Court. their time, talent and knowledge. Very shortly-it is all part of our judicial Personally, I am not very happy about system-the High Court will come to Bris­ salary increases which sometimes might be bane for its annual sittings, and when the regarded as inflationary in comparison with 2778 Supreme Court Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

those for which people have had to fight Mr. BENNETT: I rise to a point of hard to get by arbitration. I wonder what order. I ask for your ruling, Mr. Hooper. the yardstick is. The office of a judge carries In this debate are we allowed to discuss more than mere talent and a knowledge of judges and the sentences they impose? the law; it carries the necessity for the occupant to be upright and honest to the The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for nth degree. There must be no possibility of South Brisbane has drawn my attention to any prostitution of the office for financial a matter in respect of which I was continually gain or other reasons. But what is the yard­ on my feet in calling the hon. member for stick of monetary return? As I have said Townsville South to order. I ask the hon. in the Chamber previously, it is time there member for Kurilpa to relate his remarks was some measure or yardstick for all to the Bill before the Committee. sections of the community, one which would not only be generally acceptable but which, Mr. HUGHES: If there are to be large indeed, would be a true measure of what salary increases, they must be justified. If should be paid at all levels of employment in they are to be justified surely they can our society. When the trade unions require bear the scrutiny of hon. members and the increases for their members they have to fight general public. It depends upon the amount their case on economic grounds. How far of work a judge is called upon to do, his do we go? Is it necessary to have such large application, his duties, and the state of the increases in such a short period? It is not laws that we make. Whether a person has long since we had a similar Bill before us. the facility to discharge his duties properly and adequately in relation to the salaries When we relate a person's talents to that we determine depends on all these the need for imposing proper penalties for matters. Surely we must be able to make breaches of our statutes we see that in the necessary comparisons. We are not to be many cases there is an unrealistic application gagged because some hon. members of this of sentences for crimes. One hon. member Chamber feel-- particularly made comments along these lines, and others have made various The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. observations. I am concerned because it member for Kurilpa is suggesting that I was reported in the Press of 16 March am going to gag the debate, I remind that a youth was gaoled by Mr. Justice him that I am acting in accordance with Wanstall for five years on a charge of the Standing Orders of the Chamber and assault against the person when he used an the provisions of the Bill before the ether-soaked rag. This was not a case of Committee. rape. Mr. HUGHES: I would not suggest that Mr. Bennett: What has this to do with you would do that, Mr. Hooper, but the the Bill? hon. member for South Brisbane is suggesting that you do it. Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member knows nothing about anything, except how to carry In justifying these salary increases, where on his vendetta against the Police Force and can we get a comparison? In the other the Commissioner of Police. I suggest to case to which I have referred a man was him that he should stick to that because fined £30 for aggravated assault on a child, he knows at least a little about it. and for a drink charge, or being in charge of a car-- Mr. Bennett: When you are talking about rape you are dealing with something that Mr. BENNETT: I rise to a point of you know something about. order. I again remind you of your ruling, Mr. Hooper. Mr. HUGHES: In the same paper-­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. member for Kurilpa is trying to make his member for South Brisbane made a remark point at this stage. I will allow him just that is offensive to hon. members of this a little more latitude. Chamber and particularly the hon. member who was speaking. Obviously he did not Mr. HUGHES: I will not pursue the hear it. I ask the hon. member to withdraw subject because obviously the hon. member the remark and to apologise to the Committee. for South Brisbane is ducking for cover. I do not want to embarrass him further. lVIr. Bennett: Very well. [Sitting suspended from I to 2.15 p.m.] Mr. .HUGHES: I did not hear the hon. member's interjection, Mr. Hooper. However. Mr. HUGHES: Prior to the luncheon you have apparently dealt with it adequately. recess I referred to the word "gag". I wish it to be clearly understood that my refer­ There is concern in the community because ence related to the interjection of the hon. it is apparent that magistrates and members member for South Brisbane; not to the Chair of the judiciary do not always impose or to any other hon. member. Quite often penalties to fit the seriousness of the crime. the Chairman has been tolerant in allowing In the same newspaper there is a report hon. members a certain degree of latitude of a case concerning a young girl of tender in order to assist them to carry out their years-?i years of age. function during debate. Supreme Court Acts [23 MARCH) Amendment Bill 2779

Mr. Davies: Particularly when you are Mr. Thackeray: The case you are referring speaking. to was a shocking one. Mr. HUGHES: I would not say that. I Mr. HUGHES: Yes, it was. I will take the believe it applies to many other hon. mem­ matter up with the Minister at a later date. bers. I think the hon. member for South I am not giving details at this stage out of Brisbane would admit that he has received consideration for the parents and victim help and latitude from the Chair. concerned. I referred to the hon. member for South I believe that where brutality and savage Brisbane in relation to gagging because I sex crimes are committed lengthy gaol remember when he, Mr. Aboud, and others sentences should be imposed-savage sentences gagged free speech at Fairfield. I have made to match to some extent the savagery of that explanation because of the possible the crime. I believe that where these things misconception of what I intended to imply. are initially savage they are more savage when children are involved; they are horrible. Continuing to debate the seeking of leave Whereas members of the public think these to introduce a Bill, I believe that a man is things but do not always have an opportunity worthy of his hire whilst with honesty and to give expression to their thoughts, members purpose, and diligence, he carries out his of Parliament have the opportunity to raise duties to the satisfaction of his employer. their voices in the right place. I belie·ve However, I believe that we must be cognizant that savage crimes should be punished by of all factors, economic and otherwise, in savage sentences; the penalty should fit the these matters. I should like to hear the crime. It is my opinion that judges have Minister's comments on the diligence and the been too lenient in these matters. duties of the judiciary, and on the justification for these salary increases. The In conclusion, I feel that if the Minister public at times has criticised some of the will give hon. members an assurance on mat­ penalties imposed by the judiciary, although ters to which I have referred, particularly those not at all times being in full possession of the which concern parents of young children, facts of the case. There appear to be some he will put public fears and criticism to rest. grounds for concern, particularly in matters Hon. members on both sides of the Com­ referring to sex crimes and the like. I believe mittee will be able to make more worth-while the assurances that the Minister could give contributions when the Bill has been pre­ would assist most of the members in this sented. Drunken-driving offences and sex Chamber. crimes, which are more prevalent in the com­ munity today than they have ever been, call However, I should like to express the view for more realistic action by those in authority, that there should be some understanding whose salaries are the subject of debate among members of the judiciary on sentences today. I make a plea that judges use to the imposed by judges and magistrates, and that utmost the powers granted to them. If the there should be some degree of uniformity, statutes do not provide for the imposition of considering the circumstances of the case. sufficiently heavy penalties for some crime'S, There could be e•xtenuating circumstances or it is up to us to do our job and amend the factors. To give one man five years for law accordingly. using an ether-soaked rag in an assault and to Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (2.22 p.m.): I fine another man a paltry £30 for an animal­ did not intend to enter the debate at this like attack on a defenceless 7t-year-old girl stage. However, following some of the con­ whom he waylaid on the way home from tributions made subsequent to the speeches of school instances weakness in application and the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. penalty. member for South Brisbane, I rise to reiterate Mr. Bennett: You cannot dispense justice what was clearly stated by the two hon. in the same way as you get sausages out members to whom I have referred. The of a machine. Minister has introduced the Bill, and, as both the Leader of the Opposition and the Mr. HUGHES: That is a point well made. hon. member for South Brisbane pointed out, Opposition members would like to see I admit my lack of knowledge in relation it before adopting any definite attitude to it. to the technicalities of the law. But I feel that I am expressing what the public feels As the Leader of the Opposition mentioned, about it. There are different circumstances the Minister said that the need for the Bill in every case and there may be some awse from the illness of the late Sir Roslyn extenuating circumstances in some of them. Philp, the absence from the State of the It is hard for the average citizen to say, Chief Justice, and, I suppose, the impending "Here is a man with certain talents in his temporary absence of His Excellency the profession, commanding thousands of pounds Governor when he assumes the duties of a year, and doing his job to the fullest extent Administrator of the Commonwealth, which in imposing penalties as provided by law," will require his absence from Queensland for when in fact he sees what appear to be some months. The doubtful validity of prac­ glaring anomalies. One man is fined a tice'S that have been followed in the past paltry few pounds for a terrible, animal-like arose, and this seemed to the Minister to be attack on a girl, while another gets years of a suitable opportunity to clear these matters imprisonment. up. 2780 Supreme Court Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

As the hon. member for South Brisbane Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (2.27 p.m.): I pointed out, the Minister's explanation was rise to record .J?Y protest against the pro­ not sufficient to enable Opposition members posed salary mcreases outlined by _the to decide whether to support the contents Minister. I do not wish to take up the time of the Bill. For that reason, we take the of the Committee; I simply wish to indicate attitude, as we have done repeatedly on that, in my opinion, the proposal is unwise, other occasions, of not opposing the intro­ untimely, and unjust. It is unwise because of duction of the Bill and reserving our decision present trends in the economy of the State on it till all of its clauses have been and because of the clamour that we now hear examinee!. for increased wages and salaries throughout Australia. As the Leader of the Opposition mentioned, this applies equa!Iy to consideration of pro­ As late as last week we were fighting here posed salary increases for the Chief Justice about the trouble at Mt. Isa, where the wage­ and the puisne judges. As has been pointed earner was told he was not entitled to out time and again, it is not desirable for anything. He struck against the law and judges to be involved in any form of what we had to try to put him in his place. To could be described as a public dogfight over my mind, it is little wonder that we have salaries generally. When their salaries, which unrest in the community. Worse still was are fixed by Parliament, come before us, it the decision of the Commonwealth Govern­ does not mean to say that those factors can ment some time ago to increase salaries and be ignored, irrespective of the suitability of wages. We saw the reaction of people in the any increases that might be proposed. In community to that legislation, and I believe considering that, we must consider also the that people over the length and breadth of general wage and salary position in the Queensland will be absolutely disgusted by community. this proposal. I do not wish to say very much more. I Mr. Ail•ens: What do you think the black­ am sure that every hon. member is alive to shirt workers are going to think about it? what the repercussions may be to the pro­ posed Bill and to the effect it will have. If Mr. HANLON: I was about to make that we bring down legislation such as this, how point, more particularly because the President can we defend action to prevent a further of the Industrial Court is himself a Supreme rise in the basic wage, or, for that matter, Court judge and carries out his duties as in the wages of anyone? This is a very President of the Industrial Court without difficult period and a big percentage of the additional remuneration. There is a desire people of the State are not even earning the to keep judges' salaries away from the general basic wage-some of them not even half of burly-burly and rights and wrongs of salary it. The primary producers are expected to and wage increases in the community, but feed the people of the nation, but in many the fact that a member of the Supreme Court instances they are not receiving any wage. Bench is also President of the Industrial They still have to meet the increased cost of Court inevitably brings the question very production and cost of living, and any further much closer to that. action along the lines proposed in the Bill will increase those costs still further. In the The Minister has told us that it is proposed name of Heaven, Mr. Gaven, how can to increase the salary of the Chief Justice by actions such as this be justified? It is £500 and the salary of puisne judges by £350 wrong-in fact, I will go as far as to say per annum, which will mean that since that it is wicked, unjust, and unfair-and I August 1959 the salary of a puisne judge of propose to vote against the motion. the Supreme Court will have increased by just over £42 a week. In contrast to that, as Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (Bowen­ an hon. member interjects, we must have Minister for Justice) (2.30 p.m.), in reply: regard to the fact that the basic wage has There has been a great deal of loose talk on, increased by just over £3 a week and the and fears expressed in regard to, this Bill, and average wage by, perhaps, not much more later I propose to go over its contents very than £4 a week. slowly and in words much smaller than I used in introducing it so that hon. members I do not intend to go into these matters may be apprised of what is in it. in detail. I mention them merely to indicate The Leader of the Opposition, as could be that it is necessary for consideration to be expected, associated himself at the beginning given to all the matters raised by the hon. of his speech with the sorrow we all felt at member for South Brisbane when we have the death of Sir Roslyn Philp. I pay a tribute an opportunity of studying the Bill in detail. to him for going out of his way to associate Although the Minister endeavoured to give himself and members of the Opposition with us the background to the proposed Bill in what the Government has done to show its his introductory speech, he could not tell respect for the deceased judge and his family. us exactly what provisions are in it. There­ The Leader of the Opposition cast some fore, although we do not oppose its intro­ aspersions on what has been done by pre­ duction-indeed, we support its introduction vious Governments. Since only aspersions -we reserve our decision on its provisions in were cast, I should like to know just what detail, to be indicated on the clauses in Com­ previous Governments, of which I was not a mittee. member, did. I myself have made three Supreme Court Acts (23 MARCH] Amendment Bill 2781 appointments to the judiciary and I believe Mr. Duggan: If that is the case-and I they were received with approbation both accept it as being so-that is why we want within and without the legal profession. to help you. But we reserve the right to discuss the other matter on its merits. Mr. Duggan: I know one particular appointee who may have been uphill if the Dr. DELAMOTHE: The salaries, yes. I Liberal Party had not been in office. hope now that every hon. member is able to follow clearly what we are setting out to Dr. DELAMOTHE: I would not know do in the Bill, and why we are doing it. the political affiliations of any one of them. The hon. member for South Brisbane raised Mr. AIKENS: I rise to a point of order. the question of acting judges. He should It would appear that the Minister thinks he know that at the moment there are no acting is having a little private conversation with judges. They are all permanent appointees. the Leader of the Opposition. I should like When I was making the appointment of to remind him that he is addressing the another judge, knowing that Sir Roslyn Committee and that we would like to hear Philp was desparately ill at the time I what he has to say. He should take a couple anticipated his retirement-this would nor­ of his excellent throat tablets, which may mally have taken place in June--by some improve his voice. months and appointed a second permanent judge. He will fill the vacancy unfortunately The TEl\1PORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. left now that Sir Roslyn has passed on. Gaven): Order! I remind the hon. member Mr. Bennett: You still have one vacancy? for Townsville South that I am being no more tolerant with the Minister today than Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. I have been with others in the past. Various points of criticism of the judges have been raised. I should like to strongly Dr. DELAMOTHE: The hon. member for defend the judiciary. They are not in a South Brisbane, of course, produced his usual position to defend themselves. A lot of mis­ type of speech. I have never yet been able apprehension has been expressed. Parliament, to make up my mind whether he sets out the highest court in the land, assesses and deliberately to confuse hon. members or grants judicial salaries. Judges are chosen whether he himself is confused. I say that from those at the top of the legal profession, in all seriousness, because the other day I where they are making a great deal more was talking to a prominent member of the money than judicial salaries are ever likely profession to which the hon. member for to amount to. When they are appointed they South Brisbane belongs and I said to him, "The hon. member for South Brisbane talks receive no promise whatever of future reward. quite a lot in the House and is listened to, In order to protect them from possible ac­ by me at least, as one who could be expected cusations of venality, adequate salaries are to have a knowledge of the law. Can you necessary. For that reason judicial salaries tell me just how good that knowledge is?" ·must be constantly examined, and from time He said, "Well, of course, he practises a to time when a Bill such as this to recommend branch of the law-that is, defending counsel, a small increase in their salaries is intro­ mainly-where knowledge of the law can be duced it should be considered in that light. a possible disadvantage." Parliament is sitting as a court, as it were, and instead of rashly vilifying and attacking At this stage, because of the confusion judges, as a court we should adopt a judicial that has been engendered, let me say that the attitude and approach the subject with Bill sets out to remedy a doubt that exists seriousness and due thought. in the minds of all those who have advised Mr. Duggan: You cannot truthfully say me in this matter. It is auite clear that in that we have attacked them today in order the absence of the Chief Justice for any to prevent you from giving effect to your reason the appointment of the Senior Puisne wishes on this matter. Judge as Acting Chief Justice is quite in order, but there is no legal authority for Dr. DELAMOTHE: No, not the Leader of appointing the next senior judge if, for some the Opposition. reason or other, the Senior Puisne Judge is not available for appointment. The position M1r. Duggan: Not our side. of Acting Chief Justice is an office of profit Dr. DELAMOTHE: Various matters were under the Crown. If the senior judge, who raised. Most of them, such as the new is not the Senior Puisne Judge, was appointed, Supreme Court building and what it ought then almost certainly, if challenged, his taking to hold, delays in court hearings, and of this office would be vitiated. Imagine penalties inflicted, are outside the scope of what a mess it would get the whole of the the Bill. State into if everything he did after he acted in the office of Chief Justice was challenged I should like to refer to the recommended because of the vitiating of his judicial com­ increases in salaries, on which many hon. mission. As far back ·as we can go senior members have expressed resentment. The judges have been appointed in this manner. total increase in the salaries of judges of We have to validate their appointments so the Supreme Court and the District Court that in cases of doubt their decisions and will amount to roughly 6 per cent. of their actions over the years cannot be challenged. present salaries. I will compare that first 2782 Supreme Court, &c., Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

with the latest increase in the basic wage Question-That the motion (Dr. Delamothe) to about £15 which was granted roughly a be agreed to-put; and the Committee year ago and represented a greater percentage divided- increase than judges are getting. One hon. AYES, 56 member queried whether this was the right Mr. Armstrong Mr. Lee time to do it because of what has happened , Beardmore Luckiss at Mt. Isa. I think hon. members will , Bennett , L!oyd , Bjelke·l'etersen Lonergan recall that af Mt. Isa the average wage was , Bromley Marsden formerly about £18 a wee·k plus the bonus. , Byrne Melloy Camm Munro Those men have now been granted an , Campbell Murray increase of £3 a week, an increase of roughly , Chinchen Newton 16 per cent. , Cory Nicklin Davies O'Donnell Mr. Duggan: If you are castigating us for , Dean Pilbeam Dr. Delamothe Pizzey raising these objections, what were the Mr. Donald Ramsden objections of your own party members in , Dufficy Richter Caucus when they opposed these increases? , Duggan Row Fletcher , Sherrington ,, Graham Sullivan Dr. DELAMOTHE: As with the Labour Hanlon Thackeray Caucus, the opinions of the Government Hanson Tooth Caucus are not disclosed outside. Herbert Tucker Hewitt , Wallis-Smith The recommended increase is quite small. ,. Hiley Wharton , Hedges Windsor I believe it would have been much larger had Hooper conditions not been as they are. The various , HougJ.1ton matters that have been raised in objection Houston Tellers: Inch to the increases were some of the points taken , Jones, R. Mr. Ewan into consideration in arriving at this , Jones, V. E. McKechnie recommendation. NOES, 5 Mr. Bennett: Do I understand you to say Mr. Adair Tellers: that it would have been larger except for , Diplock Mr. Aikens the opposition in your Caucus? , Mtiller , Coburn Dr. DELAMOTHE: No. My recommenda­ Resolved in the affirmative. tion would have been for a greater increase except for the drought and the various other Resolution reported. matters brought forward. :Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have warned Mr. Hanlon: At the end of 1963 judges' hon. members previously about moving round salaries rose by £12 a week. Do you think and leaving their seats to go to other seats that what has happened in the last 12 months while I am on my feet putting a resolution. justifies another 6 per cent increase? I warn them again. It is highly disorderly Dr. DELAMOTHE: It is almost two years, and I will not countenance it in the future. and I think that an increase of 6 per cent. at this stage is not at all grandiose or FIRST READING exorbitant. On the contrary it is a very Bill presented and, on the motion of Dr. small increase. Delamothe, read a first time. Mr. Hanlon: What has happened in the last 12 months, after the £500 increase at Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have just warned the end of 1963, to justify this increase? hon. members that when I am on my feet, or when the Chairman of Committees is Dr. DELAMOTHE: I have just given hon. occupying the chair and is on his feet, they members a comparison. An hon. member must not move round in the Chamber. referred to black-shirt wages having gone up by a very much higher percentage. Also, there is the judiciary in other States, if hon. MEAT INDUSTRY BILL members want to compare like with like. We should go on that. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Mr. Hanlon: The black-shirt worker did (Mr. Gaven, South Coast, in the chair) not get an increase in 1963. His basic wage did not increase for a couple of years. Hon. J. A. ROW (Hinchinbrook-Minister for Primary Industries) (2.57 p.m.): I move- Dr. DELAMOTHE: He got it earlier. The "That a Bill be introduced to consolidate The judges are last on the list to get the and amend the law relating to the meat increase that was given to all members of industry." the Public Service and other statutory officers. They have all had their increases The meat-producing industries, and particu­ and, as always, the judges are on the end larly the beef cattle industry, are of great of the line. I believe that this recommenda­ importance to Queensland. For many years tion is modest. I believe that it is necessary Queensland has been the leading cattle­ and when hon. members see the Bill and producing State in the Commonwealth and the other provisions in it, they will readily at present carries nearly 7,500,000 cattle, accept it knowing the reasoning behind it. which is about half the number of cattle in Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2783

Australia. The sheep population of the The first four reasons I have mentioned are State is about 24,300,000, which is about most important to public health. Full-time 15 per cent. of the Australian total. Dairy inspection, which is possible only at central cattle, the source of considerable quantities abattoirs, ensures that meat is slaughtered of veal and tinner beef, number 1,120,000. and handled hygienically as well as being inspected for freedom from disease. The During the year ended 30 June, 1964, successful operation of voluntary grading beef and veal production in Queensland schemes for beef at Brisbane, Ipswich, Too­ amounted to 328,000 tons, mutton and lamb woomba and Townsville has indicated their to 43,000 tons, and pig meats to 29,000 tons. popularity with consumers. In that year, 150,800 tons of beef and veal Easily distinguishable marking of such were exported from Queensland, which was meats as lambs, hoggets and yearlings has equal to 52 per cent. of total Australian been of considerable assistance to housewives, exports of these commodities. In addition enabling them to readily select with assurance to beef and veal production from slaughterings meat of the quality they desire whilst avoiding within the State, about 300,000 live cattle any possibility of other classes of meat being and 24,700 pigs crossed the border into substituted. New South Wales. With an industry of such proportions, high standards and facilities The complete utilisation of inedible offals, must be maintained at all times. The bones and other waste material provides a Government has been fully conscious of its very definite economic benefit to the meat responsibilities in this regard and, through industry, as well as providing a source of the Department of Primary Industries, has many products valuable to other industries. taken a very active and practical interest On the other hand, the multiple slaughter­ in the provision of facilities and the slaughter house system has many disadvantages, the of stock for human consumption, both in chief one being that it is impracticable to Queensland and for export. arrange full-time meat inspection. Facilities for hygiene are also often below In this respect, the Government has had modern standards and the full value of by­ as a major objective the provision of a products cannot be obtained. The Govern­ hygienically slaughtered and handled meat ment of the day in 1930 was well aware of supply for domestic consumption. To this the shortcomings of the multiple slaughter­ end, my department has exerted a special house system which was then in operation in effort in its administration of the provisions Brisbane, and took action to correct this of the Slaughtering Acts and the Abattoirs position by the purchase of an abattoir in Acts. the Brisbane metropolitan area to provide a central killing facility for Brisbane. The Slaughtering Acts were designed to control the slaughtering of stock in Queens­ Mr. Sherrington: Now you are going to land so as to ensure the highest possible wreck it. standards of hygiene in slaughter-houses and butchers' shops, and generally a wholesome Mr. ROW: Oh, no. meat supply for the consumers of the State. The Abattoirs Act was introduced at that time to establish the Queensland Meat There are two methods of providing a Industry Board to operate the abattoir and meat supply to towns and cities-killing at a its associated saleyards. Control of slaughter­ central abattoir or the multiple slaughter­ ing of stock for human consumption in the house system. Centralised killing is far pre­ metropolitan abattoir area and the introduc­ ferable to the multiple slaughter-house system tion of meat into that area was vested in the for the following reasons- board with the objective of assuring a whole­ It permits- some meat supply for the consumers of (a) preparation of meat in an up-to-date Brisbane. and hygienic facility; The slaughtering of stock for consumption (b) a full-time inspection service at in Brisbane was given priority at all times abattoirs covering the inspection of stock over slaughtering for other destinations, such prior to slaughter and throughout the as interstate or export, which at times proved dressing process; to be more lucrative to operators. Provision (c) better dressing, chilling and holding was also made in the original Act for the facilities leading to better presentation of Q.M.I.B. to establish other public abattoirs meat to the public; in Central or Northern Queensland but this power was never exercised by the board. (d) chilling of carcasses immediately after slaughter, which prolongs keeping The operation of the Q.M.I.B. over the quality and renders meat more palatable years has been successful in supplying the and wholesome; hygienic meat requirements of the city of Brisbane. The Cannon Hill abattoir has also (e) classifying and grading meats for the been developed and modernised from time benefit of the public where so desired; and to time to meet the demands of the export (f) more economical utilisation of in­ trade and to handle the increasing turn-off edible parts of carcasses by providing of the grazing industry. The success of the facilities for the manufacture of by-products central killing facility at Cannon Hill such as edible oil, tallow and meat-meal. prompted the Government in 1949 to give 2784 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill consideration to the establishment of smaller meat companies: Borthwicks, Swifts and abattoirs in the larger cities and country Vesteys, having meatworks at Townsville, towns in Queensland to cater for local con­ Bowen, Rockhampton, Gladstone and sumption. Brisbane. The Abattoirs Act was accordingly In the past ten years considerably more amended at that time to enable the estab­ competition has been brought about by the lishment of local abattoirs by local abattoir establishment by private enterprise of an boards (composed of representatives of local additional 15 meatworks in Queensland, authorities) in order to extend the provision slaughtering principally for the export trade. of a hygienic and fully-inspected meat supply Ten of these works are in South-east Queens­ to consumers in such areas. A local abattoir land, whereas previously there were only was authorised to slaughter stock to supply two works in this region killing largely for meat for its own area only, and, following export-Cannon Hill and Borthwicks More­ its establishment, slaughter-yards in its area ton Freezing Works. were closed down, and butchers then sent With a view to ascertaining whether a their stock for slaughter to that abattoir. No review of its policy in relation to the meat meat from outside local abattoir areas could industry generally was desirable, the Govern­ be introduced into those areas without the ment last year appointed a committee of consent of the Minister. Action was taken inquiry to inquire into matters concerning under the 1949 amendment to set up a local the livestock and meat industry. This com­ abattoir at Toowoomba, which began opera­ mittee consisted of the Director of the Com­ tions in 1955. monwealth Bureau of Agricultural Economics Between that time and 1959 further local (Mr. Douglas McKay, who was chairman), abattoirs at Bundaberg, Townsville, and the Chairman of the New South Wales Ipswich were established. Because of the Metropolitan Meat Industry Board (Mr. successful operations of the Toowoomba local Stanley Hill), and the Manager of the Goul­ abattoir, it became obvious that these abat­ burn Municipal Abattoir (Mr. Albert Towns), toirs could extend their activities to supply whilst an officer of my department (Mr. hygienically slaughtered and inspected meat Lloyd Harris) was secretary. Mr. Harris to places outside their areas, and so utilise was later appointed as an additional member their capacity more fully. consequent upon an accident to Mr. Stanley The Abattoirs Acts were accordingly Hill. further amended in 1958 to make provision The committee was given wide terms of for such abattoirs to be utilised to full reference, but briefly it was set the task of capacity by killing stock for consumption out­ investigating the following matters:- side abattoir areas. The designation of the (a) The expected production of meat in abattoirs was changed at that time from the next ten years and the anticipated "Local" to "District." However, boards kill­ volume for home trade and for export; ing for outside their areas were required to (b) The capacity and adequacy of give priority at all times to the slaughtering existing abattoirs; of stock for consumption within their areas. Such abattoir boards were empowered to (c) The ne·ed for additional killing borrow money from the Treasury or by the facilities; sale of debentures to defray costs of estab­ (d) The necessity for a scheme of lishment, preliminary expenses and working co-ordinating and licensing facilities in capital. the meat industry; Loans were guaranteed by the Govern­ (e) The operation of franchises under the ment, and boards were required to adjust Abattoirs Acts in respect of Cannon Hill their income in order that costs of opera­ and district abattoirs; tions and interest and redemption on loans (f) The means by which facilities should were fully met. The principal sources of be provided in future; and income of a board are from slaughtering (g) Other matters pertinent to the fees charged to operators and the sale of economic welfare of the industry. by-products. The committee visited many parts of the Thus, to service expenditure on operations State and took both writte-n and oral evidence and repayment of loans, slaughtering fees from all interested parties. It reported its have to be so adjusted as to balance this findings in October last and these were expenditure less the income from sale of presented to Parliament at that time. by-products. It should be noted that public After careful consideration, the- Govern­ and district abattoirs do not trade in meat, ment decided to adopt in principle the but merely provide as a service the slaugh­ recommendations of the committee and the tering of stock on behalf of local butchers Bill now before the Chamber includes the and/or operators in the export or interstate provisions ne-cessary to give effect in practice fields. to the recommendations. The Bill repeals It has become increasingly obvious in the Slaughtering Acts, 1951 to 1958, the recent years that changing circumstances war­ Abattoirs Acts, 1930 to 1958, and the rant a new approach to many facets of the slaughtering provisiOns of the Poultry meat industry. For instance, until about Industry Acts, 1948 to 1959, and consolidates ten years ago the majority of slaughtering provisions of these repealed Acts with of stock for export was carried out by three appropriate amendments where necessary. Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2785

At the same time opportunity is taken to based on the recommendations of the com­ repeal several old Acts which are no longer mittee of inquiry. The Bill provides for operative. Consolidation of these Acts has the establishment of a Queensland Meat been recommended by eminent counsel as Industry Authority, which I will refer to as conflict between the Slaughtering Acts and the "authority". the Abattoirs Acts as at present constituted, Whilst essentially an advisory body, the has been evident in practice. Apart from authority has nevertheless been given a very other reasons, the poultry slaughtering pro­ positive role in industry affairs. This follows visions are included in the Bill because the one of the main recommendations of the same branch of my department undertakes committee of inquiry. The authority will be inspection of both stock and poultry constituted by persons qualified to bring slaughtering, as well as meat generally. This sound knowledge and experience to bear on will contribute to making administration industry problems and public policy in more convenient and efficient. relation to the meat industry. The poultry slaughtering prov1s1ons It will be composed of six members, included in the Bill relate to the hygienic namely, an independent chairman appointed slaughtering and inspection of poultry and by the Government, an officer of my depart­ include provision for licensing, which pro­ ment and four members representative of cedure has proved a valuable means of prod~cers, abattoir boards constitute~ under protecting the legitimate slaughterer of this Bill owners of proprietary abattmrs, and poultry against unfair competition from operato;s at service works, respectively. back-yard operators who often slaughter poultry under unhygienic conditions. Representative members will be chosen from panels nominated by industry organi_s­ Members will know full well the fantastic ations or bodies directly concerned. The B1ll growth in the production of broiler chickens sets out the functions of the authority which in the last few years. What is perhaps not in the main are to investigate, advise and so well known is the tremendous improve­ make recommendations on matters of public ment in the conditions under which poultry is slaughtered for human consumption as policy in relation to the meat industry, and a result of the control now exercised. Apart to carry into effect policy as determined by from the important consideration of better the Government. hygiene, amendment of the Slaughtering Acts An important duty of the authority, and is also desirable to remove any legal doubt one recommended by the committee of regarding collection of fees for meat inquiry will be to approve private abattoirs inspection. for th; supply of meat in public or district These fees are used to finance the costs abattoir areas. In this respect the authority of meat inspection and in the past few years will act in a licensing capacity, on the one collections have amounted to approximately hand to ensure suitability of such killing £70,000 annually. The Bill provides for and treatment facilities as a source of whole­ the setting up of a meat inspection account some disease-free meat, and on the other at the Treasury into which all fees shall be hand to co-ordinate orderly development of paid and from which costs of inspection will abattoir facilities by refusing, suspending, or be met. Fees levied will be such as to ensure cancelling its approval where any additional that the income therefrom, as nearly as may capacity proposed is determined by the be, equals the expenses incurred in providing authority to be beyond the reasonable needs inspection services. Under these circum­ of the meat industry. stances, such fees should enable the meat Mr. Lloyd: Will these men have the inspection services provided by my depart­ qualifications necessary to carry out that ment to be largely self-supporting financially. work? It is essential, of course, that finance avail­ able be adequate at all times to maintain an Mr. ROW: Yes. effective meat inspection, which is a major Provision has been made in the Bill for public health service. It is also considered an appeal to the Minister against a decis~on necessary to amend certain provisions of of the authority in respect to any quest10n the Slaughtering Acts which in practice have of approval. Provision is also made in the been found deficient, and to overcome Bill for the financing of the authority by con­ anomalies that have become apparent. These tributions from public and district abattoir relate mainly to powers of inspectors, boards, by fees payable by private abatto!rs slaughtering of horses and other animals and approved by the authority, and by appropna­ the use of their flesh for pet food, penalties, tions of moneys by Parliament, the latter and the power to make regulations to being necessary more particularly in the implement the provisions of the Bill. formative years of the authority. Mr. Hanson: Are these inspectors to be Following another recommendation of the for export meat as well? committee of inquiry, the Bill provides for Mr. ROW: No. Commonwealth inspectors the Queensland Meat Industry Board to be handle export meat. renamed the Metropolitan Public Abattoir Board and for its activities to be confined The Bill includes many important amend­ to the Greater Brisbane area and to the ments to provisions of the Abattoirs Acts operation of the Cannon Hill abattoir and i~s and, as already mentioned, these are largely ancillary undertakinfls, such as the public 2786 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

s:;tl~yar~s and public meat markets. Pro­ Mr. ROW: There will be an independent VISIOn IS made for the constituting by the chairman, one officer from the Department Governor in Council of other public abattoir of Primary Industries, one representative of boards to provide public abattoirs elsewhere producers, one of district abattoirs, one of in the State if and when found necessary. private abattoirs, and one of the operators. Mr. Lloyd: You said that this authority Mr. Lloyd: Three men will have a vital will have power to approve of abattoirs in say in whether a new abattoir will be any part of Queensland. Will the men com­ created in any part of the State. prising the authority include representatives of the existing abattoirs? Mr. ROW: There are six on the board. Mr. ROW: Yes. Mr. Lloyd: But three will have a vital say. The chairman of the authority, or a person Mr. ROW: Previously all investigations delegated by him, will be an ex-officio were made by district boards after their member of all abattoir boards (including the formation. This has resulted in considerable Metropolitan Public Abattoir Board) and delay in providing district abattoirs, with have full voting rights. The Bill introduces resultant considerable cost increases, which important procedural changes to streamline may now be avoided. the provision of district abattoir facilities in Provisions in respect of borrowing by future on a sound basis and with a minimum boards are strengthened by requiring the of expenditure. authority to report and make recommenda­ District abattoir areas and district boards tions to the Treasury on every application by have been constituted in the past at the a board to borrow money. Provisions in­ request of the local authorities concerned. cluded in the Bill enable public and district The Bill now places the initial responsibility abattoir boards to slaughter stock for con­ for planning additional public or district sumption outside their areas, but subject to abattoir facilities in the hands of the such restrictions on the supply of meat to authority, but provides for representations other public or district abattoir areas as may to be made by local authorities or other be prescribed from time to time. interested parties to the authority before any The Bill provides for the relaxation of determination is made by it. The authority existing provisions of the Abattoirs Acts will carry out investigations into the pro­ relating to restrictions on slaughtering within, vision of centralised killing facilities in ap­ and supply of meat to, the metropolitan propriate centres anywhere in the State. public abattoir area, this also being a recom­ It will recommend in due course the declara­ mendation of the committee of inquiry. tion of district abattoir areas, the constituting A private abattoir, which has been approved of district abattoir boards, and the method by by the authority, may slaughter within, or which a district abattoir is to be provided. send meat to, any public abattoir area, or to At the time when an abattoir board is actually any district abattoir area, the board for constituted, all preliminary investigations will which has been authorised to slaughter stock have been completed, thus enabling the board for human consumption outside its area. when formed to proceed without delay to provide its district abattoir, the authority However, any abattoir area may be assisting with necessary administration. excluded by the Governor in Council from the uperation of this provision. In this Mr. Houston: Who will constitute the regard, the authority will be responsible for boards? keeping the financial situation of boards under review. As a result of the system of Mr. ROW: It will be the same set-up as approvals by the authority, a hygienic and local authority representation on abattoir fully inspected meat supply will continue to boards. be ensured in abattoir areas, whilst allowing Mr. Houston: What will be the con,position a freer flow of trade. of the boards? The supply of meat slaughtered under lower standards of hygiene, and without full­ Mr. ROW: It will be on the same principle time inspection, to abattoir areas is prohibited as local authority representation. by the Bill except in an emergency, such as Mr. Lloyd: When you say that there will the existence of an industrial dispute. In be four members on the authority-- '>uch a case, provision is made for consent to be given by the Minister to the entry of Mr. ROW: Six. meat to the area concerned, from any source. Mr. Lloyd: Four members representing The Bill provides for the marking of producers, abattoirs, and operators. How carcasses and meat to enable the provisions many representatives of the producers will contained in the Bill to be implemented in there be? practice and any offences to be detected. The Bill also provides for increases in Mr. ROW: One penalties. Previously the maxim_11m penalty under the Abattoirs Acts was a fine of £20, Mr. Lloyd: And three members representing and under the Slaughtering Acts a fine of abattoir boards in existing areas in Queens­ £100 or imprisonment for a term not land? exceeding 12 months. A maximum penalty Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2787

of £200 or imprisonment for a term not Because they think the time is now exceeding 12 months, plus a daily penalty opportune to enter the domestic market, of up to £50 in respect to a continuing they have made a series of representations offence, is now provided. to the Government for permission to enter the trade in Brisbane, and because of the Opportunity is taken in the Bill to repeal gradual eroding away of the powers that Section 87 of the Abattoirs Acts, a section the Queensland Meat Industry . Board had that provided for the acquisition of cattle exercised-powers that were given to it by or meat. It has never been utilised and a Labour Government-they have been able has been considered objectionable in some to demonstrate to some degree that the quarters. The subject matter of regulations financial structure of the board justifies contained in the repealed Acts is also drastic financial and administrative surgery. consolidated and has been extended where That is what lies behind the Bill. necessary. It seems to me to be extraordinary that The amendments and alterations that have in Queensland, the principal cattle State in been effected have been made to allow the Australia, when a committee of inquiry was provisions of the Bill to be fully implemented. appointed by the Government not one I commend the Bill to the Committee. Queenslander was a member of it. The Government went outside the State and Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West-Leader brought people here to advise it on what of the Opposition) (3.26 p.m.): The Minister should be done. It was only as an after­ has glossed over the reasons for the thought that Mr. Harris, a very highly introduction of the Bill by trying to emphasise respected and efficient officer of the Depart­ that the Government has been actuated ment of Primary Industries, was given what primarily by its desire to improve the supply were virtually the combined duties of of meat in hygienic condition to the people secretary and member of the committee. of Queensland. Apart from the Government, the only people who seem to be satisfied with the recom­ I say at the outset that the Bill, reflecting mendations in this report are the principal the policy of the Government, represents firms to which I referred, namely, Swifts, a complete abdication by the Country Party Vesteys and Borthwicks. section of the coalition to the minority Liberal Party section in the Government. Mr. Chinchen: What about the consumers? The former Minister for Agriculture and Stock, Mr. Madsen, faced this agitation when Mr. DUGGAN: No concern is shown for he took over the portfolio some years ago them at all. They did not have representa­ but, to his credit, he was able to persuad~ tion on this board. Hon. members opposite ~is Cabinet colleagues and, through them, deal with many of these things by getting mfluence the Caucus of the coalition parties a respected person like Mrs. Gabrielle Horan to th~art the persistent campaign waged by to support them by trying to further her the Lrberal Party to effect the emasculation candidature as a Liberal at some future date; of the Queensland Meat Industry Board but they do not make any provision for a and permit the entry into Brisbane of meat consumers' representative on the board. On from some of the big beef barons of the Minister's own frank admission today, Australia. one of the provisions of the Bill has been designed purposely to cope with industrial I do not think that Australia has very situations rather than hygiene. The Govern­ much to thank the big meat firms for. ment is saying that there has to be a certain They have never been very greatly concerned standard for export purposes and, in effect, about Australian consumers. They have the local requirement is not good enough, been concerned primarily with winning profits that we want something higher for the for themselves in the supply of meat from Japanese and something higher again for what they thought was a cheap-producing the Americans-! will deal with the country to markets overseas and with having American situation later-but, when there is meat transported in ships that, in a number an industrial dispute, anything will do for of instances, they owned themselves. They the people of Brisbane. have put very little of value back into the Australian economy. There was the case What is being done in Brisbane? The of S:"ifts meatworks here, which was bought, Government proposes, by implementing this possrbly at an extravagant figure, many report, to reduce the importance of this large years ago. We have all seen, I think, a undertaking, which, despite difficulties, has recent newspaper report on the conditions been able in its period of operation to build of aboriginals in which it was stated that up assets roughly £1,000,000 in excess of on some of Vesteys stations in the north~ liabilities and, what is more important, it western part of Australia, the cattleyards has been able to provide faciliries for the were better than the accommodation provided killing of stock at a price lower than that fo~ the stockmen. As I said, I do not operating in any other metropolitan abattoirs thmk we have a great deal to thank these in Australia. great overseas shipping concerns for in Australia. Mr. Chinchen: What is the problem, then? 2788 .Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

Mr. DUGGAl~: There should not be any seven months ended January, 1965, the problem but, by this Bill, the Government total imports from the U.S.A. have risen intends to make one. to £206,638,000 whilst our total exports to Mr. Chlnchen: Do you believe in monopoly the U.S.A. have dropped to £80,439,000, for the Brisbane area? making the excess of imports over exports for those seven months £126,199,000. That Mr. DUGGAN: All I am saying is that is because the American people are calling we could do with more monopolies like the the tune. It has led to the estimated Queensland Meat Industry Board, which has expenditure of about £12,000,000 to meet been able to carry out its functions at about the export requirements of the United States. half the cost at Homebush in Sydney and What happens when we build up the other such undertakings in the South. It so-called efficiency of our industry in hygienic is not a bad sort of a monopoly to have. and other standards? The unions were very Mr. Pilbeam: This one was making a big concerned about the introduction of auto­ loss whereas the others are paying. mation in the works because of its impact on the livelihood of their members. Mr. DUGGAl'l: It is true the report of Fortunately a series of industrial disputes the Queensland Meat Industry Board dis­ and arguments has been resolved so that, closed an operating deficit of something like generally speaking, industrial peace has been £123,000 last year. I think £92,000 the restored and the industry is working fairly year before that. The board has been effectively. operating for over 30 years and those were the only two periods of loss. Most of that The Government is acting at the behest was the result of taking the cost of building of the Americans, who have made it clear reconstruction down there out of the ordinary that the moment we build up the volume revenue of the undertaking. If the board of our overseas exports because of increased had done as private enterprise does-amor­ efficiency in the meat industry, they impose tized the capital cost-it would not have all these prohibitions against the importation ·ahown those losses. Another prime reason of beef from Australia. They do not mind for those losses being shown is that the our having an excess of imports into this Government has permitted some of these country from America over exports from this people to come partly into the field. It was country to the United States of £126,000,000 not game to allow the companies to come in seven months; they do not expect us into Brisbane in one fell swoop and operate to squeal and say, "You cannot send us unrestrictedly, as is now proposed. It said all that stuff unless you take some of ours they could operate in certain cases when the back."; but the moment we start developing export markets-- our export trade, they threaten to impose Mr. Chinchen: They were licensed. quotas. It was only through strong lobbying by the Federal authorities that they were able Mr. DUGGAN: The hon. member talks to come to a compromise decision the other about licensing but all he means is putting day. a rubber stamp or an official seal of approval All this business of restricting the Brisbane on what these companies want. By action of Abattoir to a kill of 1,000 carcasses a day this sort the Government builds up these is wrong in every way. Let us look at companies and in the process seeks to destroy one of the chief reasons for the operating some of the district boards, as in Too­ woomba, Ipswich and other places, if it gets loss last year. In 1962-63 259,305 cattle a chance, because it says it will give per­ were killed whereas only 172,815 were killed mission to outside people only if they com­ last year. The overhead must necessarily bine the operations and provide meat to the increase. Apart from other considerations local people covered by their franchise. The there has been this gradual encroachment district board in Toowoomba last year was on the retail trade in the metropolitan area able to operate at a profit of, I think, £32,000 from sources outside the Queensland Meat or £36,000 despite a catastrophic drop in the Industry Board's normal jurisdiction. price of tallow and such things, yet the I mention the American influence here Government is going to allow Melbourne because I forecast that, once the Act becomes financial interests, operated on overseas operative and these people know what they capital as they are, to come m here and can do and cannot do, we will find this take over. big consortium of Swifts, Vesteys and I am a great believer in friendship with Borthwicks making inroads into the retail our American neighbours, but I draw distribution. The housewives of Brisbane attention to the latest figures I have here will certainly get it in the back of the neck from the "Monthly Bulletin of Overseas later when they try to obtain control of Trade Statistics" of January, 1965. They retail outlets in this city. At present we show that for the seven months ended secure for the small butcher the right to January, 1964, our total imports from the come in and get his meat at the same United States of America were worth charge per head as the bigger operators, but £144,888,000. Over the same period our the Government is gradually taking that total exoorts to the United States were away from him. There is nothing to say £92,370,000, making an excess of imports that these people will not make a piecemeal over exports of £52,518,000. But for the attack-Borthwicks down here and Vesteys Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2789 and Swifts in Central and North Queensland to the committee, who, as I say, were out­ making a pronged attack-on the smaller siders. They may be good men, and I am traders and perhaps making it uneconomic not questioning their ability or their integrity. for the district boards to operate. There will But why not get someone who knows the be two avenues open to them. They will local situation and exactly what the possi­ either confine their operations to domestic bilities are for development in Queensland? consumption or forgo the franchise, or the The Government should have got men with right given to them, if they engage in experience. I do not say that union members export activities. If the Government is so should have been appointed, but the Govern­ keen about decentralisation, what is wrong ment could have appointed Mr. Wilson, or with the idea of many smaller shows some other authoritative spokesman in the developing outside? The report discloses industry. There are any number of people that 11 inquirers from places as far afield who are competent and who know what as Quilpie and Charleville and up to Mt. Isa, is happening with brigalow development, beef have asked for authority to provide killing roads, pasture improvement, the application works in their areas. In their report the of beef fattening schemes and all sorts of members of the committee of inquiry said things. They would be more competent than that they did not think there was justification outside people to consider the effects of all for more killing facilities, yet our population these things. is increasing tremendously, and it has increased for the last 30 years. Nevertheless, The unhappy fact is that the number of the Government still proposes to cut down beef cattle today is roughly the same as it by one-half the treatment facilities in the was in 1890. It is not much better than Brisbane area. it was in 1893, with all the closer-settlement schemes, all the road-building, pasture I should like to give some figures relating improvement, water conservation, and so on. to costs compiled by people who are in a We have not advanced very much on 80 position to give an authoritative opinion years ago. about the metropolitan abattoir in Adelaide. For example, it has a charge of 2 ·15d. a So many of these aspects call for con­ lb. for slaughtering a bullock for the domestic demnation by the people of Queensland. I trade. For a bullock with a dressed weight do not know why the Country Party group of 442 lb.-which is the average weight of should capitulate to the Liberal interests. bullocks killed at the Brisbane Abattoir over There is justification for rationalisation in the last five years-the fee charged at planning in the development of our beef Adelaide would be 79s. 2d., whereas at the industry in this State when we are spending Brisbane Abattoir the charge would be so much money. There should be rational­ 36s. 6d. If we multiply by 200,000 the isation, but we are not getting it. We are difference between the prices charged we only creating an opportunity for the powerful have last year's loss more than recouped; it groups, financially domiciled outside this becomes a very substantial profit. country, to take the bit in their teeth to the detriment of the Australian people. They For export slaughter, Adelaide charges use us when it suits them to use us, just as 3 · 06d. a lb. for beef whereas Brisbane they do with the domestic market. These charges 1· 875d. a lb. On a 500-lb. bullock people have no obligations here, and if they the Brisbane fee would be 78s. 1d., as can make more profit by sending their meat against Adelaide's 127s. 6d. Thus, Adelaide's to America, Europe, England or somewhere charges are 63 per cent. higher than Bris­ else, they say, "To hell with the local people." bane's. When Government members talk They are not concerned about them but, about operating losses in Brisbane they when the pinch comes from some of these should take those factors into account. places and they think they can either reduce their operating losses or make a profit, they We see in the report also that the private come in and want to compete against the companies are not limited. That is important. established authority set up to look after the The Government does not say to Vesteys, interests of the public of Queensland. Swifts, or Borthwicks, "We will give you a licence to operate at that rate." The Govern­ I think that that is wrong, and that we ment lets the companies determine their own should have an opportunity to examine rate of expansion, but, to the Government microscopically some of the provisions of instrumentality, which is operating for the this Bill. It is a good idea to find out where people, the Government virtually says, "It we are going. I do not think that the report does not matter whether Brisbane has a discloses much information not generally population of 2,000,000, you will confine your known to those close to the industry. One killing to 1,000 beasts a day." It is mani­ has only to peruse most of the statistics festly wrong to put that millstone round the neck of the administration. available in the publications we have now to be able to compile a report along the The unions were against this. Government lines of that submitted to us for our con­ members may say, "They would be against sideration. I do not think it is a constructive anything we proposed." But in this instance report at all; nor is it encouraging to the the United Graziers' Association condemned development of the meat industry in the recommendation of the people appointed Queensland. 2790 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

On behalf of the Opposition I say that I competition with each other, with no thought am surprised and disappointed that a Bill of amalgamation. One is a company financed of this kind should come before us. We will by overseas capital, and the other, T. A. have to look at it closely. I do not think Field Pty. Ltd., an Australian company. it is good for the State, for the Australian I am assured that that company has never economy, or for the consumer. The Govern­ had one take-over in its history, and that it ment has shown a patent disregard for the intends to ensure that there is no take-over rights of the consumer; it is not going to in the future. These two meatworks will give him any consideration at all. soon be in operation on a highly competitive Mr. Chlnchen: We are giving him com­ basis. The Central Queensland Meat Export petition for the first time. Co. Pty. Ltd. is embarking on a general modernisation scheme to bring its works up Mr. DUGGAN: It will be interesting to to first-class modern standards. T. A. Field see what sort of competition we will get Pty. Ltd. will have one of the most modern from the amalgamation of these companies. and hygienic works in Australia, and it The Federal Country Party leader, Mr. expects to begin operations at the end of McEwen, has expressed strong condemnation next month. of this taking over of the food groups in Much has been said about the advantage this country. I am surprised that the Country of a price margin derived from the works in Party has not taken more notice of Mr. Brisbane. With access to a population of McEwen. On occasions I have paid him only 46,000, the proprietary works in Rock­ compliments. He talks more common sense hampton has been killing at rates the same in this regard than most of his colleagues. as, or slightly lower than, those charged by If we are increasing production in this the Queensland Meat Industry Board in country, well and good-I approve of these Brisbane for some years past. The under­ things-but the taking over of the ice cream taking given by both T. A. Field Pty. Ltd. companies, the biscuit factories, the flour and Vesteys is that they will continue to kill mills, and now the abattoirs, is not good for for other operators at a price the same as Australia at all. I think that we should that charged in Brisbane. repose these concerns in the hands of those In addition, both these companies are who have demonstrated, in general terms, adding substantially to the industrial develop­ their ability to give good service over the ment of the city of Rockhampton and its years. port. In addition to building modern meat­ There have been arguments from time to works, they are constructing modern freezing time that price fixing resulted in people not works at Port Alma, which is something that getting the choice cuts of meat to the same we have not had before. extent as they are available in Sydney, where Let me congratulate the special committee the price is 50 per cent. higher than here. of inquiry on its admirable report. The I have seen rump steak in Sydney at 9s. Leader of the Opposition has criticised the and 10s. a pound. If our quality has suffered, composition of the committee. I am going obviously our price has not. If that is what to say much the same as is often said in is worrying the Government, it can insist the world of sport-if you want a fair on higher quality by having the beef branded, opinion, you get a neutral referee. I for a start. We laid down that, if the see nothing at all wrong in obtaining mem­ Government wants to protect the consumer, bers of the committee from another State. it should get the inspectors to brand the It should be borne in mind that at least two beef so that the consumers will know that of them are connected with public abattoirs, they are purchasing first, second, or third­ so it can reasonably be assumed that they quaLity beef. The Government has not would not make any biased findings in favour extended that opportunity to the consumer. of private firms. I congratulate them on This matter has not been discussed in our the preparation of an excellent report con­ Caucus. There will be an open discussion taining many recommendations that must so far as I am concerned. As Leader of the be of value to the industry. Opposition, I shall give my colleagues an By adopting the report, the Government opportunity to express their views freely. has indicated that it will take advantage of Then, when we have had an opportunity to the very astute findings of a well-informed examine this matter, I shall be surprised if committee. No hasty decisions were made. they do not subscribe to many of the views Committee members travelled round the and suggestions I have put forward on their State visiting all places where the industry behalf this afternoon. was being developed, and their findings were made as a result of such detailed Mr. PILBEAM (Rockhampton South) (3 .49 p.m.): I support this Bill entirely. I feel that investigation. I have a right to speak on it because I have Generally, their statement that there are always taken a wide interest in the main now enough meatworks in Queensland is industry of Rockhampton, which is the acceptable. They saw what was going on, centre of the largest beef-cattle population and that was their opinion. Generally, I in Australia. I am happy to see this Bill give think we must accept their recommendation the green light to the development of the that franchises be allowed only in those areas cattle industry in that area, where we will where no export licences have been taken surely have two first-class meatworks in out. That is merely a matter of common Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2791 sense. If an abattoir is able to compete on into operation. That is a fairly new situa­ the export market, it should not require tion for Rockhampton, and that is why I am protection. On the other hand, if it is grateful for the way in which the industry being formed locally to slaughter hygienic­ is proceeding. I am very happy to see that ally in a central place, it should be entitled the green light has been given to enable us to some protection till it finds its. feet and to proceed along the line·s on which we are reaches the stage at which it can take out already moving. an export licence and kill for the export A great deal of comment has been made market. I regard that as a sound recom­ about the future. I do not think we need mendation. fear the future when we have an authority Most of Queensland is generally free of that is well fitted to take charge and put franchises. Only two small areas, namely, the industry on a firm footing. The authority Townsville and Bundaberg, or three if can recommend the establishment of public Ipswich is included, are covered by franchises. abattoirs or district abattoirs in any par­ I am sure that as a result of these measures ticular area if the need arises. Under the the people of Brisbane will be able to obtain proposed Bill, the authority does not have better and cheaper meat in the future. to wait until a local authority takes up the cudgels; it can initiate proceedings in regard An Opposition Member: That's a laugh. to new meatworks. That is a very good thing. Of course, nothing can be read into Mr. PILBEAM: The best meat obtained the Bill that will prevent a private operator here comes from Rockhampton, and it should from erecting meatworks and going into the be available to the general public, not to just export market. a few of us. Mr. Row: No. I strongly support the provision relating to the composition of the advisory authority. Mr. PILBEAM: I cannot see one unde­ I say "advisory authority", but actually it is sirable feature in the Bill. I strongly recom­ an authority with powers greater than merely mend that all who doubt its efficacy should advising. It has the right to license and read it thoroughly, and read also, in con­ de-license abattoirs, for example. However, junction with it, the initiating document. the an appeal to the Minister is provided against report brought down by the committee of any mandatory decision that the authority inquiry, an independent body composed of makes, so the public are well protected in people from outside the State who, because that respect. I believe that the composition of their profession, their education and their of the authority is very representative of the background, were able to make recommen­ various sections interested in the industry, dations that formed the basis of the Bill. and I look forward to its working because I strongly support the proposed Bill. I think it should improve the development of an industry that is of such great importance Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (3.59 p.m.): I to Rockhampton. was shocked to sit in this Chamber and have revealed to me that the recommendations The only exemption allowed under the made by the committee of inquiry had been Bill to the provision that no area with an adopted virtually in toto by the Government. export licence shall get a franchise applies On other occasions we have had reason to to Rockhampton. That is because the compliment the Minister on legislation that Government made an arrangement with the he has brought before this Assembly; but I two works, C.Q.M.E. and Fields, that pro­ think he has been unfortunate in the advice vided they were given a franchise in relation tendered to him on this occasion. To tell to local killing, they would allow 20 per cent. the truth, I am very sympathetic towards of their works to be used by other operators. him. I cannot understand why the committee I am pleased to know that the Bill will allow of inquiry came to the conclu·sions it reached. that very important project to continue. The I tried to catch your eye, Mr. Hodges, a report of the committee of inquiry recom­ moment ago but the hon. member for Rock­ mended that this procedure was desirable and hampton South got the call and, as a conse­ said, in fact, that some way should be sought quence, he stated his case which we know to enlarge agreements of this type in other was solely for Central Queensland Meat parts of the State. I am happy to tell you, Export Co. Pty. Ltd. and T. A. Field Pty. Mr. Hodges, that the agreement has almost Ltd. been completed and will be operative at the I invite the hon. member to look at the same time as Field's plant comes into opera­ tion in Rockhampton. There will be com­ report of the committee of inquiry on the petition up there that I am sure will be of need for additional killing facilities. Central benefit to everyone; it certainly will not be Queensland has been agitating for a district to the disadvantage of consumers in Rock­ abattoir for a long time, but as a result of hampton. representations by the hon. member for Rockhampton South, with the support of the I am interested particularly in employment, Nicklin Government, that has been denied and the exemption will have a good effect to the people in that area. I will deal more on employment in Rockhampton. The fully with that point later on. Let me deal director of the labour bureau has already with the reference in the report to requests stated that he expects a serious labour short­ for additional killing facilities. It states, age this year when Field's meatworks comes among other things- 2792 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

"However, the United Graziers' Associ­ On other occasions hon. members have ation and the Central Coastal Graziers' heard me oppose the closing of the Roma­ Association raised the point with the Com­ Injune railway line. There was a strong mittee that whilst they accepted that feeling among producers in Central Queens­ capacity over the State was adequate they land that if that line was closed it would believed that facilities in Central Queens­ mean that in certain parts of my electorate­ land were inadequate." in the brigalow area that is being developed­ there would be a conscription of stock into Those parties sought a service abattoir in Rockhampton. While that railway line is Central Queensland. They did not stipulate there it will give producers an outlet to the centre, but it would have been to the Roma, even though it is a proprietary works, advantage of the hon. member for Rock­ or to Cannon Hill if they so desire. hampton South because the first inquiry was based on a Rockhampton site. It is important to realise what Central Queensland means to the cattle industry. Let When this suggestion was rejected there me give figures of the present cattle numbers was the idea of perhaps establishing an and the estimated turn-off percentages. The abattoir at Gladstone, and then we had the total for South Queensland is 1,805,000 more localised advocacy of an abattoir in (19 · 5 per cent.), for Central Queensland the Emerald district. I shall perhaps deal 2,285,000 (20 per cent.), and for North more fully later with the matter of an abattoir Queensland 1,930,000 (15·2 per cent.). It in the Emerald district, but first of all I is obvious that when I am speaking for want to deal with the question that has been Central Queensland I am speaking for the raised regarding this meat inquiry com­ State's most important cattle-producing area. mittee's report. Strangely enough, in the Consequently there should be every oppor­ interim-in the years we have been discussing tunity there for abattoir development-even an abattoir for Central Queensland-approval proprietary development, if anyone wants was given for the establishment of an abattoir to put it that way. Undeniably this fact was at Mackay. placed before the committee of inquiry. They could not give an intelligent answer The next section of the report to which to it. I wish to refer reads- The producers in Central Queensland have "The second event of consequence was regarded the Government with suspic_ion a Government decision that the Rock­ because their simple request for the establish­ hampton District Abattoir Board should ment of a district abattoir was rejected. I negotiate with T. A. Field (Brisbane) Pty. realise that the Emerald suggestion was Ltd. and C.Q.M.E. Pty. Ltd. with a view possibly a little premature. When we see to these companies making 20 per cent. of Arcturus Downs and one or two other places their capacity available to operators. These that have gone in for lot feeding and crop negotiations are still not settled." feeding, we can understand the enthusiasm This is the important point- of cattlemen who look to the future. They "The approximate number of cattle in- can see the possibility of a local industry. volved is 300 head per day." Of course the development of the local industry w~uld solve the difficulties of getting According to the information I have, the their stock to the meatworks quickly without C.Q.M.E. works kill 1,100 cattle a day but losses from bruising, etc. they will have a project target of 800 a day We want it clearly understood that in when T. A. Field Pty. Ltd. is in operation, Central Queensland the brigalow develop­ and that is the target for that company as ment scheme is going ahead. We have !he well. Eight hundred a day from each works prospect of a tremendous burst of pro~uctl?n looks a very good figure, but 200,000 cattle in that area. Unless the Government IS WISe a year are passing through Rockhampton en enough to take advantage of the development route to southern markets. Whilst this is that is going on and give the producers what going on, the graziers of Central Queens­ they want in the form of their own abattoir laud-the producers-are fully confident that on the spot, I am afraid the producers will there is room for more competition by the be extremely disappointed. I know it will establishment of additional abattoirs in be said that the area is too sparsely populated, Central Queensland. Furthermore, they feel but I am thinking of the future. However, that there is a greater need for competition there is good argument at the present juncture at the saleyards in Rockhampton. for a local district abattoir such as we It has been said to me by producers that envisaged in the Emerald district. they feel that if they take their stock to These things do not mean something only Rockhampton and refuse to sell they become for the prod{lcers; they also mean something marked people. If they put them up again to the local people. The hon. member for later, perhaps the next day, the "ring" Rockhampton South said that 400 men says, "No, we are not going to bid for those. would be employed at T. A. Field Pty. Ltd. If the producer is not satisfied, it is just too We envisage employment being provided in bad for him. If he is not prepared to take the same way in the Emerald district. I what we offer, that is the end of it." That understand that with his Liberal philosophy means that those stock have to go further the hon. member for Rockhampton South afield. will continue to advocate such places being Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2793

operated by people like C.Q.M.E. and T. A. is to have the cattle kill reduced to 1,000 a Field. There are other people, particularly day? I can understand why the Leader of rural people in this State, who are not so the Opposition made much of that point. I wrapped up in the C.Q.M.E. and T. A. Field am quoting these figures-I do not remember or their fige1_1ts, fir~s and saleyards. They his quoting them-to show that in those are cons1denng the1r own prosperity and years-- they very strongly advocate the establishment of a district abattoir. Mr. Row: I did not quote the figure of 1,000 a day in my introductory remarks. One of the mistakes disclosed in the intro­ duction of the Bill is the removal of the Mr. O'DONNELL: The committee's report franchise. The Mini-ster will find that most quoted it. I should like the Minister to of the debate, from this side of the Chamber understand that I am not critical so much pa:ticularly, will centre on that important of him as I am of the report of the com­ pomt. There are people in Brisbane who mittee of inquiry. That is one of the have a very intimate connection with the reasons why I am very indignant that we Queensland Meat Industry Board, which is should have this expression of opinion to be known as the Metropolitan Public adopted in principle by the Government, Abattoir Board. which now endeavours to put it into practice I was strongly impressed when the Minister in toto. That is the criticism I offer. The said- report does not give a great deal of con­ sideration to the producers, nor does it give " . . . a hygienic and fully inspected meat supply will continue to be ensured any thought at all to the consumers, or to the future of the employees at the abattoir-s, in abattoir areas whilst allowing a freer particularly the one in Brisbane, where there flow of trade. The -supply of meat, slaugh­ is export as well as domestic-supply activity. te~ed under lower standards of hygiene and Without full-time inspection into abattoir Considering all of those aspects, it is obvious areas is prohibited. . . " many people must have given incorrect infor­ mation or advice to the committee of That is quite good up to that point. If this inquiry. I do not know why, as the Leader activity is prohibited in establishments which of the Opposition said, some committee was do not meet the necessary standard of hygiene not set up to examine those recommendations for t~e activity they should, by law. be in detail and to advise the Minister on matters demohshed. If they were demolished there in respect of which there could have been the would be no need to carry on and say that possibility of error. I am disappointed that these -sub-standard slaughter houses can be someone did not give that advice; it could used in emergency. I admire the Minister have been a group of departmental officers. for his frankness; the emergency he quoted. These figures are very good for Australian was an industrial dispute. If that practice Labour Party political propaganda. If 1957 was prohibited I would say it was a very is taken as the year this Government took good provision. I believe that any sub­ over, it will be found that there has been standard building should be destroyed. After a falling off practically all the way in the all, the Bill provides somewhere for com­ activities of the Brisbane Abattoir. That pensation if slaughter houses are not up to standard. indicates that, by some means, the private companies have been able to reduce the Mr. Pilbeam: Working on another basis capacity of the work of the abattoir to the meat could be introduced from another area: position as we know it today. It is very important for the Government to realise that Mr. O'DONNELL: I am not arguing on there is a barometer of interference with a the wrong basis at all. The hon. member proposition which has been profitable except is trying to suggest, "If something went wrong during the last two years. at Rockhampton they could kill out in the If we are versed in accountancy and backblocks and bring the meat in." I am examine the statements contained in the talking about the position in the metropolitan Q.M.I.B. report and the committee of inquiry area. report, we may be able to criticise the Critics of the Bill wiii advance further allocation of some of the costs, receipts, arguments based on figures that are well expenditure, and so on. I am not com­ known. I wish to quote some of the figures. petent to do that; but I am competent to The population of Brisbane wse from 565 200 say that when we have before us a Bill in 1956-57 to 656,800 in 1962-63, an incr~ase based upon the committee of inquiry report, of 91,600 in six years. What do the slaugh­ which has obvious errors in it and which tering figures for that period disclose? In doe·s not give consideration to all sections 1956-57 the total number of cattle slaucrh­ of the community, particularly the producers, tered at the Brisbane Abattoir was 299 9'44 the consumers, and the employees of the while in 1963-64 the figure fell to 172:815: abattoirs as they are set up, the inquiry as Hon. members can see the tremendous fall such was not wide enough in its approach in the put-through at the abattoir compared to this most important matter. It has already with the rise in population. How can people been pointed out that Queensland is the believe other than that somehow the abat­ leading State in beef production. toir's activities have been sabotaged when It is very puzzling why the committee of they learn that it i-s to be replaced by more inquiry did not get down to deciding why up-to-date premises in the near future, and there has not been a very great increase in 2794 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

cattle numbers in Queensland since 1890. members will agree that numbers decreased Cattle in Queensland at present number over after that. Beef cattle are now being marketed 7,000,000, I think the Minister said, which at 2t years of age instead of at 6 or 7 number has not varied greatly except during years of age, and at the same time much drought periods over the years. There is a more beef is being produced. This indi­ slight upward trend now. If progress is to cates not only that the average is younger be made at the rate that has applied since but also that there are more efficient beasts 1890, which is a long time ago, I am afraid producing more meat. The gradual build-up we shall not get very far. When I see the in cattle numbers in the last five years has opening of the brigalow country and the been achieved in spite of the cattle tick. A possibilities of that area, and when I con­ start had to be made with far fewer cattle sider the rough deal that Central Queensland than we had in Queensland in 1890, because seems to be receiving, despite the attitude of the cattle tick had reduced cattle numbers producers, who in many instances are the greatly over many years. backbone of the Government, all I can say is that figures, although they tell the truth, It has been mentioned that the Brisbane are not appreciated. Abattoir has been killing smaller and smaller numbers of cattle over the last few years. Mr. CORY (Warwick) (4.22 p.m.): I should That has been brought about by the inability like to congratulate the Minister on bringing of the operators of the Brisbane Abattoir down the Bill. I speak now as one who has to compete on the export market, because made a living from the beef industry over the reduction has taken place only in the quite a number of years. If one is involved export kill, not in the domestic kill. It has in an industry, one is concerned with all proved the efficiency of privately-owned sections of it. and its success depends on each country works, which have outstripped the doing his little bit right along the line to operators of the Brisbane Abattoir, and, if the consumer. they can compete on the export market, they certainly can compete on the domestic To me the most desirable part of the market. committee's findings was their limited support of franchise areas. When the committee was Mr. Muller: There must be some reason investigating these matters, I was a little for these outside people being directed to concerned that they might support a building the abattoir. Have you given any thought up of franchise areas rather than a limitation to that? of them. The opening of the Brisbane meat market to producers in southern Queensland Mr. CORY: The people who own the will have a very marked effect on the effici­ country works have to make their living from ency of the industry. This will be of assist­ their works. ance to country works that are expanding their operations, forming a very good usage Mr. Muller: They are run more efficiently? of labour, and increasing their efficiency. It will also be a great boon to producers because Mr. CORY: Yes. They depend on the they will be able to compete in the market success of their works for their livelihood and for prime-quality crop-fattened cattle, in they have to be competitive. That is what which field they have been able to operate they have been doing, and no doubt they only to a limited extent. The only market will be equally competitive if they are for this type of beef has been interstate and, to a limited extent, overseas. The opening allowed to operate on the domestic market of the Brisbane market will overcome present and in the metropolian area. restrictive practices under which the free I think it is very significant that the findings entry of meat could not take place. I think of the committee of inquiry recommended it should be remembered that only last year the setting up of a meat industry authority. during a period of industrial trouble, bette; The meat industry has gained a greater and meat at competitive prices was delivered in greater prominence in recent years, and I Brisbane right from the outset. think that we must all approve of the setting The Opposition also mentioned that lower­ up of an authority to co-ordinate all aspects standard works may be used for the produc­ of the industry. In today's highly competitive tion of some of this meat. I should like to world an authority is needed that is capable point out that only approved works will have of lo'oking at all facets of the industry, access to any market. Meat entering the making decisions, and giving sound advice Brisbane market will come only from such to those sections that are in need of it. How­ works. A great deal of money is being ever, we must make haste very slowly in spent to bring country meatworks up to the the field of central killing works and the highest standards of efficiency and hygiene setting up of district abattoir boards. In and the standard is now second to none i~ quite a number of areas, such w_orks are the State. run very efficiently, but I do not thmk there is any great need to move into this field in It has been said, too, that the number of some parts of the State. I hope that the cattle in Queensland has not increased very authority will conduct with discretion an greatly since 1890. What was not mentioned investigation into any area that it thinks was that the cattle tick had not appeared in may be suitable for the establishment of a Queensland before 1890, and I think all hon. district board and that it will make its J'vfeat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2795 decision only after it has taken into account have cattle also that are inclined to get all the personalities and problems in the cancerous eyes. Only a very small section of area. these cattle can in any way be condemned. Another important facet is the provision There is no risk to other parts of the body for trade between board areas when the and we feel that we must be very fair and need appears desirable. I think we must give inspectors quite a lot of discretion in always leave the gate open for trade within the method by which they condemn these any part of the State if it is in the best cattle. No producer wants to be paid for a interests of the industry and the consumer. diseased animal; no producer wants to sell We know that, from time to time, certain a diseased animal; but he wants to be areas of the State will be short of certain treated fairly and paid for all healthy beasts. types of meat, and we must always have For that reason, stock should not be con­ available machinery whereby meat can be demned merely on a superficial examination moved from one part to any other part of when a post-mortem might be necessary to the State with the least possible red tape or make a correct diagnosis. I consider that delay. too many beasts are condemned purely on a superficial examination. Very often a post­ . I thin~ for the success of the industry, and mortem examination would confirm the Jts maxJmum progress, we must make as findings made on a superficial examination; flexible as possible all facets of its opera­ but sometimes the decisions to condemn are tions. Particularly in the marketing field­ harsh and unjustified. we must be able to move as quickly as possible our meat from one part of the I feel that the greatest advantage from State to any other part where a market this measure will be freer trade in the meat arises. From the producers' angle, we must industry. Our country works will compete look at the finance that will be required to far more actively at country auctions. We operate this authority. Regardless of who hope that the young prime beef will be actually pays this money, the finance is regarded as premium-quality beef because broadly shouldered by the producer. At the that type of beast costs a lot to produce. present time he is paying his Australian Meat Only when the producer gets the top price Board levy for research and marketing. for it can he afford to produce it. If we allow country works, which up till now have Mr. Sherrington: Don't you think the operated only on the interstate and export consumer pays his share? market, to operate on the closer domestic market, such as the Brisbane market, the Mr. CORY: He is not paying this. We advantage will be felt right throughout the simply get so much less for our cattle. industry, from producer upwards. I take Mr. Sherrington: It is still passed on to very much pleasure in supporting the the consumer. Minister's introduction of this measure. Mr. CORY: These operators pay this Mr. NEWTON: (Belmont) (4.37 p.m.): No money regardless of what the levy is. Under doubt during the remainder of this session and the Bill there will be a new levy for the the early part of the August session, we will authority, and the producer will be paid a have a great number of Bills introduced, either little less for his beef. We favour this by way of amendment or consolidation, as the because we feel we will get the advantage result of reports that have been presented to of a more organised industry, but we must Parliament by various committees of inquiry into various phases of industry. That will not wat~h th.at th~ authority is operated on very busmesshke hnes and that the money is amaze us because, with the elections 12 used to the best advantage. months off, no doubt the present coalition Government will endeavour to bring many I should like to mention one problem measures before Parliament so that they can in the slaughtering section in the beef go to the people that bring pressure to bear industry. It is the condemning of cattle upon them and say that, during the Govern­ supposedly for disease. In years gone by, if ment's last term, they have carried out what a beast had a lump or any abnormality it those people wanted. However, it does amaze was condemned. We got over the problem me to hear hon. members opposite get up a couple of years ago and, where those one after another, as they have done in the cattle were only regarded as suspect they past, to support the extension of the activities could be auctioned and the buyer was ahowed of private enterprise throughout Queensland. to bid for the suspect cattle and got for I want to make the Australian Labour them what they were worth on the market. Party's attitude quite clear. During our Now a small problem appears to be arising. term of Government those people mentioned Many of these inspections will be purely by the Leader of the Opposition-the three outward or superficial inspections, and not biggest meat companies in the State, plus a so much on a post-mortem. We know that number of others-were allowed to operate in our industry are many cattle that for without any interference in any way. What various reasons, whether through injury' or a we need to watch is what is going to happen tooth _abnormality, a deformed jaw, or throughout Queensland as the result of the somethmg of the sort, are quite likely to present measure based on the various reports develop a lump outwardly that has no effect before us. Everybody is hoping that, in whatever on the health of the beast. We future years, a general take-over by the bigger 2796 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill companies will not take place, as has been in the metropolitan area and see what is the experience in this State in the past, available under the present grading system. with bigger companies taking over the I do not believe that there is any system smaller ones. If that should happen, every­ of grading at present; it is a case of take thing that the Minister is hoping for in the what you can get and pay what you consolidation of the Acts, and everything have to pay. That is what these organisations he has pointed out at this introductory are complaining about. They are the stage, will be lost. Experience has shown us people who have to do what they can what takes place in other spheres when with these cuts of meat in an effort to take-overs occur. It is to be hoped that it feed the breadwinner. They say that there will not happen in this industry. should be a proper system of grading to ensure that they get good-quality meat. . If Quite a number of hon. members on this this were done, price-fixing could be applied side of the Chamber will have some comments as it was by the A.L.P. when it was the to make about the Bill. There is no doubt Government. If hon. members on one that members representing electorates like side of the Chamber complain because it mine, namely, Wynnum, Bulimba, and Mt. affects them, it is up to the Opposition Gravatt, will have some comments to make, to put the point of view of the people for in our electorates are many people who have worked in the meatworks in the it represents. metropolitan area, and one must rise to A good deal has been said about the protect the interests of people who have position at the Brisbane Abattoir. I hold worked in the industry for 40 or 50 years. the Government responsible because it has In the Cannon Hill area are the Queensland been on the Treasury benches since 195?. Meat Industry Board abattoirs, Borthwicks, I regularly visited the Brisbane AbattOir and a number of bacon factories, all from 1954 to 1960, when I was State associated with this measure. The Queensland organiser of my union, and I have made Branch of the Australasian Meat Industry visits since I became a member of Parliament. Employees' Union has covered the personnel Recently I was accompanied by the hon. in those callings for many years. It is member for Bulimba on one visit. It was vitally interested in what may take place not one of those conducted tours with six as a result of the report of the committee or seven men making sure you see only of inquiry. It may well have a big effect what they want you to see. We were on the future, and the prosperity, of the accompanied by only one person, and we union as it applies to the metropolitan area, made it clear where we wanted to go and and Queensland as a whole. There is no what we wanted to see. doubt that, particularly in the post-war Owing to the renovations taking place period, this industry has had a boom in there at present the abattoir cannot kill Queensland. the numbers of cattle normally handled. I was amazed to hear of the proposal The buildings have become weak and the to cut down the killing rate at the Brisbane foundations have to be reinforced. abattoir to 1,000 head a day. I remember Endeavours are being made to save this that, in the post-war period, when I was particular building, several floors high. On working in the meat industry, the kill was every floor, including the killing floor, the about 2,000 a day. I will later advance walls are tommed up. The employees have some reasons for the deterioration in the to work around these obstacles. If the kill. Minister or any other Government repre­ The hon. member for Warwick spoke on sentative has had any experience of killing behalf of the producers. When we talk works he will know that this sort of thing about this matter we must consider every­ should not be allowed. Whether the thing-the producers, the operators, and the treatment is done by hand or by the modern people who handle the beef, such as the method now used in the Brisbane Abattoir, meat industry employees, and relate all namely the rail system, there must be a those matters to the consumer. I assure clear floor and everything must be keJ?t the Minister that I have already received moving. That is the only way any abattmr a number of deputations from women's can kill the number of stock that should organisations in the metropolitan area asking be treated every day. me to do everything in my power to see Whilst it is true that the on-the-rail system that the functions of the Brisbane Abattoir has been installed on this floor, we found on are not curtailed in any way. In these our visit to the calf-killing section that the discussions it has been pointed out clearly system applying years ago was. still being that, while the Brisbane Abattoir operates carried out. I believe that it IS proposed, in the metropolitan area, it will stop other as some time in the future, probably when companies from carrying out what they the building is restored to the orde-r in which intend to do if they get the whole of it should be to install an on-the-rail system the metropolitan franchise. There is no in that secti~n. Let us therefore be realistic doubt that the first concern of these about making comparisons between what is organisations was the quality of the meat happening at the Brisbane Abattoir and the available in metropolitan shops. I challenge works of private companies today. I haye anybody to go to some of the meat shops been in a number of more modern abattOirs Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2797 that have been built in recent years, and stop at various sidings because of the traffic things there are entirely different from what on the lines, and I have seen the two. stock­ they are in older works. It is hardly fair men move round the cattle wagons, mspect to compare the position in modern abattoirs the cattle, make sure that they were all right, with that in a plant in which endeavours are and put back on their feet again any cattle being made to bring it up to modern-day that were down. If anything was wrong, they requirements. That is the problem at the rectified it. On the other hand, I have seen Brisbane Abattoir now. road transports leaving Brisbane with cattle Let me say that it is to be hoped that the and proceeding along Shafston Avenue with assurances given by the Minister when the a leg hanging out the back and a leg hang­ Estimates of his department were before the ing out the side. Who looks after those committee will be carried out. There is cattle? Only the driver of the truck, who is no doubt that an abattoir of this size, with in the front cabin. If he does not look in all its associated facilities, cannot be allowed his rear vision mirror to see what is happen­ to be placed on the scrap-heap overnight. ing in the back of the truck, the cattle could It is the intention of the Queensland Meat be hurt within half a mile of being loaded. Industry Board (to be known as the Metro­ If anything happens to the cattle, it does not politan Public Abattoir Board, I understand, need very much imagination to know what under the Bill) to endeavour to bring its works happens to the meat. up to modem standards to enable it to com­ Mr. Lloyd: What happens to the person pete freely with new enterprises established in driving the car that hits them? Queensland. There is no doubt in my mind, or in that of anyone else who has been to Mr. NEWTON: I have not time to go the works and seen the amount of space that into that question now. I have something will be available when the new killing systems further that I wish to put before the Com­ are in operation, that there will in due mittee. course be ample space for many things to be done. Already, because certain things Officers of the Australasian Meat Industry have taken place, some parts have been Employees' Union compared costs at the sublet to several firms. Brisbane Abattoir with similar costs at the metropolitan abattoir at Adelaide, and I There will be ample storage for the plant. should like to refer to their findings. For When the work being carried out to ensure example, the metropolitan abattoir . at that the Brisbane Abattoir does not go out Adelaide charges 2 · 15d. a lb. for slaughtenng of existence is completed, the storage space a bullock for the domestic trade. For a then provided will be a considerable asset. bullock with a dressed weight of 442 lb. (the Space will be available for renting by those avera"e wei"ht at Brisbane Abattoir over the who have been using the abattoir for the last five ye~rs) the fee charged at Adelaide export trade. would be 79s. 2d.; at Brisbane Abattoir the Linked with this question is the provision char"e is 36s. 6d. The only extra services of sale-yard facilities at Cannon Hill. Much perf;rmed at Adelaide and i~cluded in t~eir has been done in maintaining these yards fees are paddocking and feedmg f?r a. penod because of the advantage that they are to not exceeding one week and dehvenng t~e people throughout the length and breadth carcass and edible offals to the owner s of the State who send cattle to them for premises. For export slaughter, the metro­ sale. Not only cattle but pigs and sheep politan abattoir at Adelaide charges 3 · 06d. a are handled. Anyone familiar with this area lb. for beef, whereas Brisbane charges knows that the facilities for those wanting 1· 875d. a lb. On a 500-lb. bullock, the to purchase stock are remarkable, and have Brisbane fee would be 78s. 1d. as against been kept in good order over the the years Adelaide's 127s. 6d. Thus, Adelaide's charges by previous governments and the present are 63 per cent. higher than Brisbane's. one. ·when we are discussing this question, I think we should bear in mind the area In the past, the Brisbane Abattoir _has that the abattoir covers. fulfilled its main function-to slaughter live­ stock hygienically for the public of Brisbane Much has been said, too, about the trans­ -but at the 'Same time it has been a cheap port of cattle over the length and breadth export works for various meat ~xp~rting of Queensland. The competition has resolved interests, including those who have m~tJgated itself into rail transport against road trans­ a persistent "knocking" campaign <:gamst the port, and a great deal has been said about abattoir's franchise for the domestic market. what has happened to cattle that have Having seen what is done at the B~isbane travelled by rail to the Cannon Hill sale­ Abattoir to assist private operators m the yards. From my own experience-! still go metropolitan area and having inspected the back to Cannon Hill on occasions to see facilities provided there for the export trade, what is going on there-I should say that I I am satisfied that it has done a very good do not think road transport can carry cattle job in the past. These companies-:-and as efficiently as can rail transport in Queens­ especially Borthwicks-were established land. I say this because, no matter whether purely as exporting companies. That was it has been coming from Cairns, Winton, explained this morning by the Leader of the Charleville, Cunnamulla, or somewhere else, Opposition. It is a well-known fact t?at, I have always seen two stockmen on the since World War Il, and one could say nght train. As hon. members know, stock trains up till 1960, these people were not interested 2798 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

in the domestic market at all because over­ The third point that interests me is the seas there was a boom for meat in most fact that the proposed authority will be countries throughout the world. That is why essentially an advisory body, although it has these companies were not interested in the power to control any new works or any domestic market. Borthwicks had been able increase in killing capacities. I am very to get contracts overseas, particularly with happy to know that the Minister has the America, for certain types of meat. I can final say in such cases. That is a necessary remember on one occasion they had quite a safeguard, because many unforeseen circum­ large contract to supply hamburger meat to stances can arise. I cite an example in my America. In my days-and I have had own area. We were not covered thoroughly experience on the land-those beasts were by the report because we are influenced so called "tinners" and one would be lucky to much by stock going south of the border. get 30s. each for them. In the main, they In the 12 months to 30 June last 302,904 were cows that were no longer of any use in cattle crossed from Queensland into New a dairy herd. South Wales, mainly in the area I represent. Mr. Campbell: They were fit for human In the same period 101,535 travelled in the consumption. opposite direction. There is that loss from Queensland into New South Wales. In that Mr. NEWTON: It is true that they were year it meant a loss of 201,369, which was fit for human consumption, but again it was more than the number killed at Cannon an entirely different treatment. As the name Hill. I have forgotten the figures, but I think implied, they were slaughtered, cooked, and the Leader of the Opposition said it was put into tins for such things as the bully nearly 200,000. We have that loss across beef we ate in the Army. Even in that form the border because New South Wales has it was a poor sort of meat to eat. departed from the principle of central killing at Homebush by establishing a line of (Time expired.) abattoirs in its northern districts adjacent to Queensland at places such as Gunnedah, Mr. McKECHNIE (Carnarvon) (5.2 p.m.): Moree, Inverell, Glen Innes and Tenterfield, This Bill is based on the report of the Com­ all of which draw cattle from our area. If mittee of Inquiry into matters concerning we had works on our side we could prevent the Development of the Livestock and Meat some of this loss to New South Wales. Industry. To my mind there are three very interesting principles in the Bill, the first one Mr. O'Donnell: You would like a district being the abolition of the monopoly at Can­ abattoir? non Hill. I am very happy to see this monopoly at the Brisbane Abattoir abolished, Mr. McKECHNIE: I should like an because on many occasions in my early days abattoir. I am not fussy what type of I was the victim of it. I have acted as a abattoir it is, but I should like an abattoir. train drover, and in that capacity I have 0£ course, that area is developing, as are all come to Brisbane to save expense and have the brigalow areas. In future there will be arrived at the Brisbane Abattoir only to more crop fattening. Within a 200-mile find that there is a strike in progress, a radius of Goondiwindi there are almost as state of affairs brought about by the many sheep as in the rest of Queensland. monopolistic position of the Brisbane Abat­ This provides a great opportunity for the toir. I can assure hon. members that, acting export of mutton through Brisbane. The as a train drover to get a cheap trip to Bris­ basis of this approach is to get local industries bane and then finding that the cattle you in country areas and to see that our exports have brought down are unsaleable places you go through our ports rather than New South in a very unhappy frame of mind. Wales ports. In the past Cannon Hill has unwittingly been directly encouraging indus­ This Bill aims at reducing Cannon Hill trial unrest. to about half its present killing capacity. That is a very progressive step because it Mr. Aikens: Do you mean the manage­ will encourage the killing of the same ment? number of cattle at country centres so that Mr. McKECHNIE: I mean that the set-up there will not be the wastage of beef that generally has been conducive to industrial is now occurring. The operator in the unrest, particularly the fact that it has been country can afford to pay more for a beast a monopoly and other meat has been kept that he will kill than he can at Cannon Hill out. Quite a bit of inefficiency has crept in because he gets more beef from it. One which has resulted in losses to those who has only to lose 15 lb. on the trip from the supply cattle to Cannon Hill. I have sent country to Cannon Hill to lose the price dif­ down cattle which have arrived when a strike ferential that is quoted in the killing rates at has been in progress. They have had to Brisbane as against Adelaide. remain there for perhaps a week, under Mr. O'Donnell: How do you account for adverse conditions. There was the possibility the 200,000 cattle coming from Central of their contracting redwater in that time as Queensland to the South? they had come from clean areas. If that occurred losses could be high, and to avoid Mr. McKECHNIE: The same thing occurs the risk of such losses the producer sells at to Sydney. I will give the hon. member a low price. In that way he loses. Of some figures shortly to show him what goes course, part of the loss due to loss in weight from Queensland to Sydney to be killed. has to be borne by the consumer. Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2799

I concede that it is desirable to retain the same numbers, despite the introduction of Cannon Hill abattoir to the extent suggested, ticks and the fact that some of the best that is, with half its capacity. It is most cattle lands in 1893 are now producing cane desirable from both the producer's and the and grain, we are better off. There has consumer's point of view that a place be been a loss by the cattle industry to other reserved for the small, independent operator. industries which produce more to the acre, A kill of 1,000 head a day will keep about such as cane and grain, but men in the cattle 117 small operators going at Cannon Hill. industry should be complimented for the job they have done. Mr. Aikens: Will that supply the metro­ politan area with all the meat that is needed. At Cannon Hill there is a mutton kill, which I understand will not be affected Mr. McKECHNIE: No, it will not. But greatly. it will certainly be a help, and it will keep Mr. Houston: Have you been over Cannon ~he small businesses in operation as a steady­ Ing factor on the market. When Cannon Hill Hill? first came into operation there was a prob­ Mr. McKECHNIE: Not since I took a lem with a few big works controlled by mob of cattle there about three years ago. the companies. It was esse·ntial to control There was a strike in progress and I had the operations of those works. We are now to sell them at a loss. Prior to that I was fortunate in that there are 30 abattoirs in there two or three times a year as a train Queensland, with about 20 of them situated in drover bringing my own and other people's t~e. ~outh-east quarter of the State. The pos­ cattle to the abattoir. During the last three sibility of a monopoly being created by the years I have been only to the waterfront in big meat interests has gone, thanks to the front of the abattoir with the Treasurer, Hon. diversifying of killing facilities in the country T. A. Hiley. centres of South-east Queensland. It is The abattoir will carry on mutton slaughter­ most desirable to encourage this development. ing more or less as at present, and the Brisbane Abattoir meat is dearer than meat number of sheep and lambs killed there killed in country centres. As I said earlier will be gradually reduced so that mutton there is loss in transit. ' can be treated in the same way as beef. Mr. Beardmore: Loss in weight. The hon. member for Belmont said that the situation has deteriorated. If the hon. member Mr. McKECHNIE: They lose condition. means that we are killing fewer beasts in In addition, it is lower-grade meat when it Brisbane, to my way of thinking that is arrives at the abattoir-not only is there a an improvement, not a deterioration, as it loss of quantity; there is also a loss of achieves what is desirable in the industry, quality. The closer meat is killed to the namely, decentralisation and the production source of supply, the better it is for all of a better article at a lower price. concerned. In conclusion, as a producer of both beef Mr. Beardmore: And there is cheaper and mutton I support the Bill and express transport, too. appreciation for the records and the research of the Minister's officers. Mr. McKECHNIE: Yes. It is certainly much cheaper to transport beef in a chilled Mr. THACKERAY (Rockhampton North) state than on the hoof, and it is more (5.16 p.m.): When I was listening to the hygienic when it has to be transported bv Minister introducing the Bill, I was thinking rail or truck through built-up areas. · to myself, whom is he trying to appease, All meat for Brisbane must go through members of his own party or the people in the South-west-no doubt some Country ~ meat ?all to be certified or inspected. It Party members have shares in the abattoirs IS pleasmg to note that the Bill contains a proyision that it must go through a specified out there-or is he trying to soft-soap the or smtable meat hall.. It need not necessarily Liberal Party as far as the slush-fund account is concerned? go t~rough Cannon Hill. This provision was certamly a bone of contention for some time The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. in that all meat had to go through Cannon member to relate his remarks to the measure Hill before distribution. That provision before the Committee and not to indulge in probably added td. or ld. a lb., or probably personalities, which do not relate to the more, to the cost of all meat brought into debate in any way. Brisbane. The Leader of the Opposition said that the Mr. THACKERAY: This is the first step number of cattle in Queensland is little towards killing Cannon Hill and the other greater now than in 1893. That may be so. district abattoirs in Queensland. As the hon. Howe_ver. by improved husbandry and member for Carnarvon said, the kill at handlmg methods we are turning off many Cannon Hill will be reduced by at least half. mor~ cattle than in those years. We are That means that half of the employees at turmng off fat stock; we are crop fattening Cannon Hill, members of the A.M.I.E.U. to get them away. We have much more and affiliated unions, will lose their jobs. water and do not have the terrific losses Of the district abattoirs at Townsville, through drought. that we had in those years. Bowen, Ipswich, and Toowoomba, three are Consequently, With a more efficient industry paying propositions, and no doubt Ipswich and a greater turnoff with approximately the is the most lucrative. 2800 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

The hon. member for Carnarvon said it more than 50 per cent. of the retail butcher is absolutely necessary to have the abattoirs shops in Rockhampton-the figure would be close to the cattle so that the beef can be somewhere in the vicinity of 70 per cent. turned off in better condition. If that applies That gives them an "open go" to pass on to in his area, the same must apply in Central the people of Rockhampton meat that is Queensland. Over the years I have advocated not fit for the American or English trade. the establishment of a district abattoir and This could be any cracker beef or any other export abattoir in Central Queensland. stuff that they care to buy, for which they always pay their own price. That is the Mr. Windsor: Fred Graham got one for Mackay. position now, and within 10 years, or per­ haps a little longer, there will not be one privately owned butcher shop left in Queens­ Mr. THACKERAY: He was able to get land. They will all be owned by these meat one f~om l\~r. Evans. One should have bee:o cartels. The consumer will have no say in established m Central Queensland, but it was the type of meat that he buys or from whom not. The reason, as the managing director he buys it, because the large companies will of the Central Queensland Meat Export own not only the meatworks but all the Company Ltd., Mr. Mark Hinchliff, and retail outlets as well. the hon. member for Rockhampton South have said, was the financial assistance that Mr. Campbell: Are you saying that this the Ves.tey empire and T. A. Field Pty. Ltd. meat is unwholesome? have given to the Liberal Party since this Government has been in office. In Central Mr. THACKERAY: I am saying that they Queensland the United Graziers' Association will be able to force upon the people any and other associations connected with the type of meat that they feel is not suitable meat industry wholeheartedly support the for the export trade. Meat not up to the establishment of a district abattoir and, subse­ standard required for the American and quently, an export abattoir. English trade will be forced on not only the people of Rockhampton but those elsewhere This Government is a coalition Government throughout the State, without any grading or formed by the Country Party and the Liberal price control. That is exactly what will Party, and one would think that its first happeri, and the Bill is the first step in that thoughts would be for the people on the direction. land and for the establishment of a district abattoir at Rockhampton. We were denied Already the Minister has introduced a the right to have a district abattoir in Bill to kill the Brisbane Abattoir and the Rockhampton or elsewhere in Central Queens­ facilities at Cannon Hill. Damage has been land, which produces more beef than any done already-- other part of the State. In the southern portion of the State there are 13 abattoirs Mr. Row: That's tripe. compared with two in Central Queensland: Mr. THACKERAY: I do not eat tripe, Let us go back a little and consider the and, if the Minister is a sample of tripe, I cost of meat to the consumers. About 12 would not eat him. He should stick to sugar months ago I mentioned here the rises and cane. He knows a bit about c.c.s. but not falls that took place in the price of cattle on much about rump steak. many occasions, not only at Cannon Hill but in saleyards throughout the State, yet never Let us look at another of the schemes that once was any reduction in cattle prices passed the hon. member for Rockhampton South on to the consumer. told us was going to be introduced at Rock­ hampton, namely, the Rockhampton Mutton Another racket is to be found in the Supply Company. He said that there will be bacon trade. Pig prices have increased and keen competition between the Central decreased in the past, yet the price of bacon Queensland Meat Export Co. Pty. Ltd. and has never been lowered. Bacon manufac­ T. A. Field Pty. Ltd. Let me say quite turers have a complete monopoly. About openly that if there is keen competition two months ago I bought a pig at the sale­ between these two companies I should like yards at Rockhampton, and the price of the to know why the manager of the C.Q.M.E. pig and the dressing of it meant that the Co. and his engineer had the plans of T. A. bacon, delivered to my home, cost 4s. a lb. Fields' works in their car and went down The Darling Downs Co-operative Bacon every day to give the constructing authority Association and other bacon manufacturers ideas on how the floor should be put down charge from 7s. 6d. to up to 10s. a lb. for and how the building was progressing. This bacon and ham. There is another reason was the company that was supposed to be in why there should be price control, not only direct competition with Fields. The manager, on beef but also on mutton, bacon, and the engineer, and the works manager, Mr. other essential commodities. Day, used to be down there at least once a day. We hear from hon. members on the Let us now take a look at these large other side of the Chamber a great deal about meat companies, such as the Central Queens­ healthy competition! I have no doubt that land Meat Export Co. Pty. Ltd., Swift Aus­ the hon. member for Clayfield was correct tralia Co. (Pty) Ltd., and Thomas Borthwick when he said that this is a hillbilly Govern­ & Sons Ltd. The C.Q.M.E. Co. has bought ment. Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2801

When Mr. Morris, now Senator Morris, For the last few years growers and fat­ was Minister for Labour and Industry, he teners of cattle have been very unhappy told us that Fathom Fisheries, with a paid-up about the situation at Cannon Hill saleyards. capital of £250,000, intended to process sea­ The hon. member for Carnarvon said earlier food in Central Queensland. That was that he had not been there for three years another of the grandiose schemes that he because of the fright that he got at that dreamed up when he was not chasing the time. Many other people have had similar Comms. The hon. member for Rock­ experiences. In my opinion, the de_crease hampton South told us about the Rock­ in the price of cattle has some relatiOn to hampton Mutton Supply Company. I asked the fact that people have not been satisfied the Minister for Primary Industries a with what has been going on at Cannon Hill. question about this company, and I asked The remedy is not to surrender but to try him whether its works were going to be to correct whatever weaknesses there are. I built at Gavial Creek on land that was below am not critical when I make that statement; flood level and near a septic installation. I am not for a moment suggesting that the He said it was quite hygienic. The principal Queensland Meat Industry Board has entirely of the Rockhampton Mutton Supply Com­ fallen down on its job. However, I think pany appeared in court because he had not there is tremendous room for improvement. paid various debts that he had contracted I have three points in mind that I should round Rockhampton, but only recently he like to place before the Committee. I think published an advertisement in the newspaper they are largely responsible for the position calling for people to invest in this bogus in which we find ourselves. In the last few company. How can the Minister and the years the proclamations of the weight of hon. member for Rockhampton South say cattle and the prices quoted have been very that this is a bona-fide company when its misleading. Approximately two years ago I principal has been fined in the Magistrates made a statement in this Chamber that the Court for not paying his debts? The hon. weights and the prices paid for cattle as pub­ member for Rockhampton South lends his lished in the Press were quite wrong. I am support to some extraordinary ventures. not going to ask hon. members to accept my statement for that; those views were Mr. Tucker interjected. really endorsed by the growers themselves because they have decided to divert their Mr. THACKERAY: As the hon. member cattle elsewhere. for Townsville North says, he has dogs tied up everywhere. Again and again we see cattle going to Cannon Hill quoted, as I said at that time, We hear of all the new industries that are at £9, when sometimes the actual sale was coming to Queensland. This one will never closer to £7. I did not actually use those operate in Rockhampton; its principal is figures, but from time to time, that would nearly bankrupt. happen. That cannot go on if Cannon Hill That is the position in regard to the is to retain the confidence of those who Rockhampton Mutton Supply Company. If support it. I am not telling the truth, I invite the I make no secret of the fact that when Minister to get up and tell me where I am that abattoir was established the objective wrong. I know that he cannot. I invite him, was really good. It had the effect of cleaning too, to tell me what the Government is up many of the unsightly slaughter-yards, and doing for Central Queensland. The people resulted in better supervision. People are not there are being denied their inherent right getting the quality of meat they would like, to a local district abattoir, and the Govern­ but the whole of it is in one centre and it ment has gone against the wishes of members is all capable of being thoroughly examined of the Country Party in this respect. In my both at the slaughtering end and in the opinion, this is the first step towards doing distribution. away with public abattoirs, not only in At that time we did not have the problems Brisbane but also over the length and breadth we have today. There have been strikes and of Queensland, and setting up meat cartels hold-ups at the abattoir, things that should that will eventually handle the whole retail not happen at an abattoir. Men can strike, distribution of meat and thus be able to if they like, if they are gristing wheat or foist onto the people of Queensland meat making bricks or doing something of that that is not suitable for overseas markets. kind, but I want hon. members to realise just what a serious matter it is to hold up an Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (5.29 p.m.): I abattoir. With cattle in the yard and cattle welcome the introduction of the Bill, and I slaughtered on the floor, to walk out and wish the Minister well in his efforts to put leave things in such a mess is perhaps one the slaughtering and distribution of meat in of the most wicked things I have ever heard the city of Brisbane on a better footing. of. I should also like to compliment the com­ Mr. Sherrington interjected. mittee of inquiry on its very comprehensive report. It has gone to a good deal of Mr. MULLER: I am not critical of the trouble to examine the position thoroughly men alone. Some of the butchers I know and make r.ecommendations that I think will are real tradesmen. I take off my hat to be of advantage to the industry. them. They are highly skilled in action and 92 2802 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill they should be paid properly for the work I know what it means to become part of a they do. However, the remedy is not to ring. I suppose it is the buyer's duty to walk out and leave everything as it is, because buy as cheaply as he can, just as it is the the hardest hit is the poor unfortunate who seller's responsibility to ensure that he gets is working his eyeballs out to produce the the best possible price. For a long time I beef. There should be a better means of have been urging the installation of scales settling disputes between management and at Cannon Hiii. I am not the only one. men than walking out and leaving the pro­ The former member for Aubigny, Mr. ducers' meat to rot on the floor. Sparkes, has urged for this for a long time. I suppose nobody has had wider experience Mr. Sherrington: It is a pity the Govern­ than Mr. Sparkes in the breeding and market­ ment did not wake up to that. ing of cattle. He has examined the position in the United States of America and other Mr. MULLER: That, I think, is one of parts of the world. We have been told that the problems. There is another one, and it is with scales it would be impossible to get even worse. To those hon. members who are through the number in the time but Mr. interjecting, I say that I am not saving any­ Sparkes' investigations proved that works one in this matter and I do not care what using scales were putting through four times anyone thinks. Cannon Hill sales have de­ the number of cattle going through Cannon veloped into something in the nature of a Hill. I do not believe that it is not practical ring of buyers and nobody can convince me to use scales, and I hope that in the future the that in a great many cases when cattle are board will investigate the possibility of instal­ sent in, buyers are competing against one ling them. I believe that would provide the another. That is what has sickened men like answer to the problem of the declining the hon. member for Carnarvon, and it is numbers. what has sickened me. I think everyone knows what happens. People have been sell­ Nobody wants more for his stock than ing their cattle on weight to the meatworks. their worth, but everybody wants their true Even though they were offered perhaps 10s. value. The position today is very much dif­ or £1 a 100 lb. less than the quoted price ferent from what it was. In the last 12 at Cannon Hill, they knew exactly what they months I have not had cause on any occasio_n were going to get. And, what is more im­ to doubt the weights of cattle I have sent in. portant, the meatworks were prepared to A couple of years ago that nasty type of allow them to see their cattle kiiied and to thin_g did happen, but today I feel that the see what weight there was. weights are fair. Indeed, in my experience during the last 12 months on several I am not asking the Committee to accept occasions I have felt that the weights shown my version. The very fact that people send were even a little better than I expected. I their cattle to other works and sell them have spoken to some of the agents on this by weight instead of sending them to Cannon point. To show just how serious the position Hill is proved by the fact that the committee was, I point out that they were not game of inquiry found that the numbers at Cannon to say anything about it because it might Hill were falling off alarmingly. Cannon lead to their being boycotted. The buyers Hill has not carried out the function for could simply side-step the cattle they offered. which it was intended because people have Can hon. members wonder that people have had the fear that their cattle might be left lost confidence in Cannon Hill? The remedy on the floor unslaughtered and, as the hon. lies in the installation of scales. People in member for Carnarvon pointed out, every the trade also know that this would be a day clean cattle are in ticky country they means of overcoming the difficulty. I am not suggesting that it is an easy matter, but run the risk of developing redwater or some the board will have to go into it. other disease. There is also the loss-in-weight factor. In days gone by many of the big exporting companies bought cattle in the yard, and I I am not happy about reducing the capacity sold to Borthwicks for years without having at Cannon Hill. When the Brisbane Abat­ any complaint. Highly qualified men esti­ toir was first established the Brisbane area mated the weight of the cattle, and, if we had little more than half its present popu­ objected to the estimates, we could have the lation. Brisbane is growing rapidly and it cattle weighed. does not look like progress to me to reduce the capacity of the works. In all industries of I do not know if the board can do any­ this kind efficiency is governed very largely thing about this important point. One very by turnover. If the numbers are lower, disquieting matter for many cattle men is efficiency must suffer. I invite all hon. that they do not know what the people in members to go to Beaudesert and have a the trade want. A few years ago the demand was for young, chubby-fat beef but today look at Tancreds. It would do them good that class of beef is not wanted. I do not to see the way the men work in harmony suppose the trade can afford to pay for fat, with the management, and the numbers and which is useless. No-one will go into a weight of cattle treated there. Why can we butcher shop and pay ridiculous prices for not get together and have this work carried fat. I had experience recently of a butcher out everywhere in the greatest spirit of buying at a show sale. He said, "If I bought harmony? those cattle and put them through my shop Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2803

I would have them in the shop for a fort­ Mr. MULLER: I have no control over that. night. People would not buy the meat." We One difficulty in walking cattle to the rail fatten cattle for shows and win prizes with is the class of road we have today, and the them and then find that they are too fat. class of people who know little more about There have been so many changes from the beast than the beast knows about them. time to time that the grower does not know Every minute a beast is walking to .rail, your what class of beef is wanted. Until the last heart is in your mouth wondermg what year or two a handsome premium was paid will happen next. for young, light beasts, but in the last couple of months cattle people cannot help but notice There is a tremendous job ahead of the that that premium has almost gone. A board if it is to solve this problem. Other fortnight ago I read a report that bullocks works have been brought in because of what weighing 700 lb. realised more per 100 lb. has happened. If Cannon Hi.ll had be.en r_un than cattle at 500 lb. Whether that is correct as was intended the committee of mqmry or not, it is true that if people go to Cannon would not have recommended that beef _be Hill, or read the reports on Cannon Hill brought in from outside or that the capacity from week to week, they will find that today be reduced. All angles must be considered the heavy bullock does not bring much more before recommendations of this kind are than a younger one weighing about 500 lb. made. I refer to what has been done at some of For some unknown reason female beef the outside works. I am not drawing a com­ and heifer beef are very unpopular today. A parison between the Meat Industry Board few years ago speyed or young heifers would and the management at these places. But probably sell at a premium as high as a 400 I feel that what can be done at some of the or 500 lb. bullock, but today they are sold private killing works sho~ld be capab_le of for pounds per 100 lb. cheaper. It is being done at Cannon Hill.. To . d? It we pretty hard for a grower to understand what need more than efficiency m kiiimg and is going on. I found myself in that position treating; we need the confide~ce and the with some speyed heifers that I bought up co-operation of the people workmg there. If north. I thought they were all right at the anyone can say at the drop of a hat that a price I paid but after I had grown them I certain meatworks will be closed tomorrow, found that the price had fallen by £2 1 Os. can we wonder that people lose confidence? per 100 lb. When that happens, cattle Some action must be taken to get over that people are lucky if they can come out on difficulty, otherwise it matters little what the top. Board does; it will still be in trouble. Mr. Bromley: That is the risk taken with The hon. member for Warwick referred all shares. to slaughter levies. This is outside the control of the Minister's department, except Mr. MULLER: I can understand cow beef that his officer is supposed to collect the not being in demand. After cows have had levies. I am not happy about the slaughter a few calves we cannot expect the quality levies. I did not mind the shilling, two of the beef to be the same, but when speyed shillings, or three shillings, if it was proper!Y heifers are sold at pounds per 100 lb. less deducted. But a few weeks ago I sent m than bullock beef it is pretty hard to under­ some calves and bullocks. The levy of 3s. 3d. stand. If this scheme is to be a success, as was applied to the bullocks, the bigger calves, hon. members who have spoken have said, and even half of the calves which were the confidence of the growers must be gained. small animals only four months old. I If the new scheme does not win the con­ understood that the levy was applied only to fidence of the growers and if the board does cattle weighing 200 lb. or more. I com­ not do its job, we can expect prices to plained to the agent, who said that he was decline. That would be the result. If the obliged by law to pay the levy on the cattle. scheme is not put on a correct footing it will Calves sold in the country do not attract the probably be true to say that cattle can be levy. If a calf is to attract a levy of 3 s. 3d. slaughtered outside and brought in more at Cannon Hill and there is no levy in the efficiently and cheaply than by being brought country, people will become dissatisfied. in on the hoof. To my mind, that assertion is debatable. If cattle are brought in by Mr. Row: Is that the inspection levy? road transport and are properly handled, there will not be much difference in the cost Mr. MULLER: Yes. for research purposes. of supplying the meat to the retailer. Like the hon. member for Warwick, I do not object if the money is wisely spent. Mr. Bromley: Would there be a future It must be remembered that it is easier in the air transport of cattle? to strike a levy and create a fund than it is Mr. MULLER: No. That would be too to spend the money to advant~ge. . These costly. Road transport has an advantage levies are added to those already m existence over rail transport, but there is not a great till producers are almost innundate~ with a deal of improvement in the quality because multiplicity of them. If a levy rs to be the cattle brought by road are bruised more. applied, I feel that it should be fair and The difficulty is getting them to rail. should not be charged on calves that are under weight. It is an easy matter for Mr. Sherrington: What if Mr. Chalk has anyone at a sale to make this information pulled up the railway line? known to the agent. 2804 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

Another matter requiring consideration I listened with interest to the remarks of relates to high values. After all, high prices the hon. member for Fassifern. As a mem­ do not mean very much to producers because ber of the Opposition, I am very grateful for costs are increasing in proportion and profits his contribution to the debate. He has had a are perhaps even a little lower than they used great deal of experience with primary indus­ to be. When levies are struck, those required tries, and his words of advice to the meat to pay them want to know how the money industry-"Go out and help yourselves"­ is going to be spent. If it is to be collected are very sound because he is conscious of its every effort should be made to see that it needs. is spent to advantage. There is so much to do in this industry. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition, who said that he would like to study the Without bein~ critical of cattle-owners, I various clauses of the Bill before comment­ may say that m days gone by, for some ing upon it in detail. It will, of course, be reason hard to find, beef producers did very studied very closely by committees of the little for themselves. I am one of them Parliamentary Labour Party. and I speak with some knowledge of th~ subject. I have been dairying and I have My Leader said, also, that he saw what seemed to be a great abdication by the also ru~ cattle. I devoted the best years of my life to organisations for dairymen. I Country Party in favour of the Liberal Party held every office, State and Commonwealth monopolists and those who are very con­ that the dairying industry had to offer. i scious of the dictates of big business. If we spent 20-odd years on the Dairy Export liken the situation to what happens in the Board, and devoted all my time to the meat industry, we might say that members formulation of the equalisation scheme. I of the Country Party in the coalition evi­ was chairman of the Butter Marketing Board dently have been hit with a needle from a besides being chairman of my own associa: tranquiliser gun, put into the cattle race, tion. That experience has given me some gone into the knock-down stall and, under knowledge of the industry and placed me our modern method of beef dressing, been in a position in which I am a:ble to maka hung on the rail, boned on the rail by the comparisons, seeing that I have been running boners, and put into a carton before they a few beef cattle at the same time. have woken up. As a matter of fact, I might go one step farther and say that some of When one looks at what dairy farmers them have been put into the freezing cham­ cane-growers, fruit-growers, and wheat~ ber ready for shipment to the United King­ growers have done, one realises that their dom or the United States of America. objective has been the control of their com­ modities f\om grow~r to consumer. Dairy It is very noticeable that the committee of farmers, without takmg too much authority inquiry said at page 2 of its report, para­ control their product from the factory f!oo; graph 8- to the time of its sale on the markets of "During the course of its inquiry in the world. We have promoted sales all over Queensland, both in evidence and during the world. We have held production in times its tours, the Committee was made acutely of over-supply and released it for sale when aware of a considerable depth of feeling required. Let that be compared with what has concerning what was described to it as the been done in the beef industry. Beef is stored in the dairying industry's cold stores monopolistic position of the 'big three at Hamilton; the beef industry has not even overseas meat companies'. It seemed to its own cold stores. I do not know what the Committee that this feeling was more is happening or why something has not been a reflection of past events and fear for the future, than a reflection of current condi­ ?one.. J?ven. now no move is being made· m th1s directiOn. The time has arrived when tions in the industry. The Committee the beef industry has to do something for believes that it is not within its competence itself. to make any judgments-one way or the other-on the events of the past. It has (Time expired.) been asked however, to hazard a view on the future." Mr. ~ANSON .(Port ~urtis) (5.54 p.m.): In .spe~kmg

inroads into the meat industry and to show the processed meat has been removed. As that they are the financial masters of the a result, a conveyor-belt system operates State. both in front of, and at the back of, the [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] boner, taking the processed meat to the packing centre for cartoning and the bones Mr. HANSON: I was making the point for dressing and disposal. It is a system as ~dvan~ed by my Leader today, that of automation. we m this country have nothing to thank the huge meat combines for. If one were Whether it be in the meat industry or any to study their history in this country one other industry, once automation is introduced would see the avarice that has pro{npted every person engaged in that industry is much of their direction and management entitled to receive some of the benefits that and has caused considerable concern to flow in its wake. Automation should not be used only to line the pockets of the huge ~1any of the people who follow the meat combines with great profits. All those ;ndustry ll:nd,. in. the main, depend upon employed in the industry should be able to It for ~heir hvehhood. I was emphasising enjoy the benefits of automation, and it is th~ pomt . that w~s ~pparently missed by this committee of mqmry when certain ideas essential that these be equitably distributed. were advanced relative to the town in which Emphasis has been placed on the need for I reside and which had suffered adversely the hygienic treatment of meat. The Minis­ from the treatment of one of these huge ter tells us that one of the aims of the Bill meat monopolists. is to promote that principle. We must at all I hope and trust that this Bill, which times be cognisant of the need to ensure the ~eems to be the application of Liberal hygienic treatment of meat so that it will m!erests by n::embers of the Country Party, be quite safe for human consumption. Will result m the establishment of an Whether the meat is for export or local abattoirs in the central area or a service consumption, its hygienic treatment is para­ wor~s at Gladstone, which could be of mount. This need should be uppermost in considerable benefit to a very large producing the thoughts of the people controlling the area. Within 100 to 150 miles of the town various meat establishments and those a very large proportion of Queensland'~ actually handling the meat. I have been cattle numbers exist. through many meatworks and at times have seen things that are far from hygienic. They Whilst I am on the subject of the treatment were not the fault of those working in the that has been handed out to various people industry but of the management, which some­ engaged in the meat industry by those times included Government servants who under whose financial direction it operates should have been more wide awake to the I wish to draw attention to several change~ unhygienic practices. that have occurred in it in the last few years. We have seen a change from the While dealing with hygiene, I refer to a State export award to a Federal award question I asked recently about foot-and­ and, whilst listening to various speakers mouth disease in cattle. I say quite frankly this afternoon, I realised that several smaller that the door is wide open in this cmmtry concerns have sprung up and decided to for the introduction of tropical diseases that kill cattle. I think in all about 15 were could seriously injure our cattle industry. mentioned, some of which have gone to Adequate protection is certainly not provided the Industrial Court with their own awards at many of the State's ports. I asked the to be ratified. This has been of considerable Treasurer whether he had any knowledge of financial benefit to the companies concerned the quarantine regulations and the insistence and much to the detriment of those who, of many leaders in the grazing industry and over the years, have followed employment many highly responsible veterinary officers in the meat industry. They have had to in the State and Federal departments-- accept lower remuneration for their labours, Mr. Chinchen: What about the Bill? on the rates ratified by the commission and in addition to this, the quotas insisted upo~ Mr. HANSON: This has a lot to do with by these killing centres and works have the Bill. If foot-and-mouth disease were been considerably increased-as I say, at introduced into this country, there would be the same time as the pay has been consider­ no meat industry and all the graziers would ably reduced. This has caused much be broke. I want to see the industry pros­ dissatisfaction throughout the industry. It perous; I want to see it advance. is no good beating about the bush. It The hon. member for Fassifern said that has happened only in the last four or the meat industry should get out and help five years but it has been a paramount itself. I am not merely voicing the opinion factor in causing considerable industrial of the people in the industry, I am voicing strife throughout the meat industry. common sense, when I request that the American departments require stringent Minister and his Cabinet colleagues take hygienic conditions in our meatworks and positive action to prevent the introduction of killing centres and insist upon all different cattle diseases, particularly foot-and-mouth types of floor arrangements such as the disease. on-the-rail system for slaughtering and for For many years I was associated with a boning-out and the removal of heavy port authority. We had a system for the obstacles by the taking away of bones after disposal of ships' garbage. That system 2806 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

was introduced during the period of my the committee has not made any recom­ chairmanship. I do not think it was adequate mendation for the town. Members of the but at least it was an attempt. At various Government parties may say, "Well, ports throughout the State when ships are so-and-so is coming to your town; don't be taking on meat, either in cartons or quarters, greedy." However, for 70 or 80 years the the rat guards are not even put up. Not town of Gladstone had a meatworks that far from where a ship was being loaded I provided employment for many highly skilled have seen Lascars' rags and all sorts of people. It is indeed regrettable that they are rubbish thrown onto the deck, much to our unable to pursue the employment for which disgrace for not preventing such undesirable they have· been trained, and in which they practices. are so adept. In answer to the hon. member for Mt. On page 5 of the report of the committee Gravatt-I am only raising what I think, in of inquiry appears the following- the interests of the meat industry is a very "N o specific request was made as to important matter, which has a 'bearing on the location or capacity but the impression Bill. Anyone who refuses to recognise the was left with the Committee that a works importance of this matter is either a knave at either Rockhampton or Gladstone with or a fool. a throughput of about 600 head per day I note that it is proposed for the authority was being sought. to have an independent chairman appointed "The Committee had to consider the by the Government, a representative of the existing situation in Queensland as a producers, a representative of the proprietary whole as well as in Central Queensland abattoirs, a representative of the abattoirs in examining this matter. While the pres­ boards, and a representative of service works. sure for a service works in Central Coastal Several hon. members this afternoon, par­ Queensland has a long history ..."- ticularly on this side of the Chamber, have deplored the fact that there is no consumer The history would not be long, it would representative. I voice my protest about be only seven or eight years-because the the omission of a consumer representative. Central Coast Graziers' Association has been Who eats the beef? Who pays for it? Who fighting for many years, even when Swift is the person to whom the beef finally comes? Australia Co. (Pty.) Ltd. was in existence in Who are the most important people in the Gladstone, for the establishment of some industry? To my mind the most important type of service works or abattoir in the people are the producers and the consumers. Central District, and that suggestion had a The Government has a very serious respon­ considerable amount of merit in it. sibility to the community in framing legis­ lation to protect the right of people to The hon. member for Rockhampton South process a particu_lar product, whatever it said this afternoon that this particular abat­ may be. The fmlure to put a consumers' toir idea has been done away with because representative on the board is a very serious both private companies operating in Rock­ omission. I want to know whether the hampton decided to give 20 per cent. of their Minister will institute some action to rectify killing facilities and space to meet the needs this. Meat is part of our staple diet normally supplied by the abattoir committee. and, if we do not have satisfied consumers There has been considerable negotiation and in the community, if people are not happy argument about this particular facility. The with the hygiene in the works, the meat companies consider that they are being industry will go into a decline, prices will be generous in allowing 20 per cent. but what depressed and the affairs of the industry will is worrying me is whether, in the case of a be chaotic. serious obstruction to their activities, either financial or industrial, the 20 per cent. would In the area where I reside there are many apply and whether they would bear 80 per cattle and it is extremely important for a cent. of the burden of the hardship and the meatworks of some description-an abattoir cost. Judging by their previous form, I a service works, or a private works-to b~ doubt it. I do not want to adopt the attitude established. I do not want to work the parish of Upton Sinclair when he exposed the whole pump to death but in my town many people of the meat chicanery in his famous book are unhappy because the town is without a "The Jungle". meatworks. There are men in the town who, from their early working life, have been I shall continue to quote from page 5 of trained and become skilled in all facets of the report, where it enumerates some of the meat industry. Now that the meat season the fears advanced by many of these people has started in northern works, these men are against the monopolies in this State. It going many hundreds of miles from their reads- home town to get employment. It is terribly ". . . recently four events have occurred unfortunate for them that they have to keep which bear largely on the consideration two homes. Towards the end of the meat of what might be done in the near future. season here, some men go to the mutton The first is the erection of a domestic works in Victoria, where their services are and export service abattoir at Mackay eagerly sought as they are very skilled and which is expected to commence operation adept in their calling. Apparently it escaped late in 1964. This works has an initial the notice of the committee of inquiry, for capacity of 240 head per day. Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2807

"The second event of consequence was Mr. Hughes: We are destroying a monopoly a Government decision that the Rock­ in Brisbane. Surely you understand that. hampton District Abattoir Board should negotiate with T. A. Field (Bne.) Pty. Mr. SHERRINGTON: The hon. member Ltd. and C.Q.M.E. Pty. Ltd. with a view for Kurilpa says, "We are destroying a to these companies making 20 per cent. monopoly in Brisbane." If that is so, why of their capacity available to operators. do not hon. members opposite do something These negotiations are still not settled. about the monopoly £hat has been set up in The approximate number of cattle involved the bread industry since they became the is 300 head per day. Government? "The other two matters which bear on I feel that, in the report of the Committee the question of killing capacity in Central of inquiry into the meat industry, too many Queensland and the competition for cattle questions have been left unanswered and in that area are the closure of Swifts many others have been glossed over. Whilst Works at Gladstone and the decision of it has been said that the committee was T. A. Field (Bne.) Pty. Ltd. to build a given wide terms of reference, it will be found new works at Nerimbera near Rock­ in the summary of the terms of reference hampton." that most of the things that the committee was asked to inquire into were of a very If they build a new works-and I am not restricted nature. Many important aspects opposed to that-they will provide employ­ of the processing and marketing of beef ment in the different areas. Whether Vesteys were overlooked. have a shareholding in these particular works is open to conjecture. For instance, the committee subscribed to As was mentioned by the hon. member the view that it is essential to have hygienic for Barcoo, 200,000 head of cattle are sent processing of meat and rigid inspection of south from the Central District each year, slaughtering facilities. It seems, however, and over 100,000 head are normally stationed that what happens to beef after it leaves at Bajool, which is a resting-place, because the abattoir has not been considered by the it is imperative to spell cattle every 24 committee. For many years now, there have hours or every 300 miles. been numerous complaints about the method of delivery of meat to suburban shops. There (Time expired.) have been complaints about the use of unhygienic vehicles for this purpose. There Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (7.34 have been complaints also about the handling p.m.): When introducing the Bill the of meat and the way in which it is left Minister said that he was giving effect to hanging, unguarded from contamination, in many of the recommendations contained in wagons with the doors open. Such complaints the report of the committee of inquiry into have been very prevalent over a number of the meat industry. While he has indicated years. In spite of that, no reference is made certain measures that are to be adopted in the report to this very important matter. following on the report, as yet he has not I felt sure that some investigation would disclosed the fate of the Brisbane Abattoir have been made into it. I felt sure that the on the committee's recommendation to reduce committee would have given some considera­ its franchise to 1,000 head per day. While tion to the use of polythene or plastic bags that part of the debate was taking place, I or plastic sheeting to cover carcasses and was amazed to hear from members of the seal them from contamination whilst being Government the suggestion that at last delivered. I know that, in the past, cheese­ healthy competition will come to the meat cloth was used to cover various types of meat; industry in the metropolitan area. To me but I am not entirely convinced that that that is so much shadow-sparring. Already method was satisfactory, because it could, the Government has subscribed to monopoly in itself, be a source of contamination. control in the bread industry in Brisbane, Surely the committee of inquiry should have and other monopolistic enterprises have endeavoured to ensure that no possible risk arisen with its full approval, since it assumed of contamination occurs in the delivery of office. beef. There is in Brisbane a public abattoir Another point that I have raised on a that has operated for the last 30 years. It number of occasions, and which was raised has produced meat dressed under hygienic more recently in this Chamber by the hon. conditions, and has had its influence on the member for Belmont following the report of retail price of meat through the low cost at the Health and Medical Services. is the use which stock have been treated. Because it of sulphur-dioxide as a preservative in meat. was set up as a Government instrumentality and a previous royal commission made a Today, with modern refrigeration, I do not recommendation, the so-called champions of think that there is any case for the use of private enterprise now have a complete abhor­ sulphur-dioxide for this purpose. As has rence of it and anything that smacks of been pointed out on several occasions, the monopoly control. In spite of this attitude, greatest danger with sulphur-dioxide is that monopolies are to be found everywhere, and it can be used to give meat that has already hon. members opposite do not show any begun to decompose the appearance of being concern over them. fresh and whole-some. In my opinion. the 2808 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

committee of inquiry should have investi­ because this has been a subject that has gated the use of preservatives in meat because intruded itself into discussions on the mar­ of the risk to the public that is involved. keting of meat for many years. There does not seem to be any specific reference to that Mr. Campbell: Do you claim that butchers in the report. are selling decaying meat? It is rather significant that, in a report Mr. SHERRINGTON: Well, there have prepared at the direction of this Minister on been many prosecutions for the over-use of the fruit and vegetables industry and the sulphur-dioxide in sausage meats. I do not various facets of its marketing, there was a say that all butchers do it, but the oppor­ certain disclosure of the prices structure, tunity is there for the unscrupulous butcher. whereas the only reference I can see in the The fact that the number of prosecutions is report of the committee of inquiry into the increasing year by year is ample evidence beef industry is the statement that it was that this undesirable practice of using sul­ difficult to ascertain just what effect treat­ phur-dioxide as a preservative has not been ment costs had on the retail price of meat discontinued. With modern refrigeration, I because they were fixed at a certain figure do not think there is any need to use pre­ irrespective of the size of the beast and not servatives. on a poundage basis. Mr. Cbinchen: You are talking to the Price has a very important bearing on our wrong Minister. meat industry, because, in the report, it was forecast that in 1972-73, with a population Mr. SHERRINGTON: At least I am on of 1 · 9 million and a per capita-consumption my feet making a speech. of 150 lb., we would need to produce The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. 130,000 tons of beef. This, I feel, has not Hodges): Order! been satisfactorily explained in view of the recent history of decline in the per-capita Mr. SHERRINGTON: All I have heard consumption of beef not only throughout this from the Liberal Party rebels is inane inter­ State but throughout the Commonwealth. jections. According to the latest figures we have, the per-capita consumption today is 130 lb., so The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! in the next 9 or 10 years we are supposed Mr. SHERRINGTON: I am not going to to see consumption increased to 150 lb. a allow them to distract me from my purpose. head. I wish to turn now to the practices Such an increase does not seem to me to operating in the sale of beef at Cannon Hill tally with a report I have here, prepared by saleyards. The hon. member for Fassifern the Queensland Meat Industry Board, which referred to this earlier in the debate and says that there has been a definite decline showed that there is evidence that buying in beef consumption since 1938-39, when the rings have been operating at Cannon Hill. wholesale price per 100 lb. was 30s. 10d. In This has been a source of constant irritation 1960-61 the price was 235s. 10d. per 100 lb. to me since the Government decontrolled and there was this decline in the per-capita meat prices, because it has lent itself to a consumption. I can see no evidence that, very undesirable practice. Under the formula unless we can bring the price of meat into a used now, the price of meat is calculated on more realistic relationship with the domestic the price paid for a pen of bullocks. A buy­ budget, we can hope to see this increase to ing ring can depress prices and then raise 150 lb. per head by 1972-73. I repeat that the price for a particular pen. Having done there has been definite evidence over the that, it can then base all its meat prices on years that, while the price of beef continues the high price that was paid for one pen. to rise there will be a definite decline in It appears that no investigation into the consuU..:ption. There has been a significant weighing of beef and the effect this system increase in the consumption of many of the would have on marketing was carried out. offal meats because the average housewife I have no doubt that the weighing of beef finds that the better cuts of meat are being will eventually be adopted as part of our priced out of the family budget. selling system. The report of the committee of inquiry did I feel that this question of auction is far not deal with the effect on the abattoir of too chancy for the producer. I know of the conceding of partial trading rights to the cases where producers have submitted cattle various meat export companies. However, to a certain auction and, because they were the Annual Report of the Queensland Meat not satisfied with the prices offering for Industry Board made a feature of the fact their cattle, have refused to sell and have that- been marked from that day on. Whenever "The Board is not a marketing authority they have brought beef to the same auction trading in competition with other establish­ room, it has been quite noticeable that there ments and consequently is not associated has been very little bidding for it. Here with the present variable economics in again the committee could well have investi­ the merchandising of meat products, but gated the advantages or disadvantages of the is conscious of the fact that in conceding principle of weighing beef for sale. I was partial trading rights within the Metro­ somewhat disappointed that they did not politan Abattoir Area to other works, the Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2809

result has been at the expense of volume There is no indication in the report as to of throughput and the overall economy what will happen after we have restricted of the public abattoir. the metropolitan abattoir to a quota of 1,000 head a day, and what might be the fate "The Board's economy, and consequently of the meat consumers in Brisbane should that of its operators who own no facilities there be a sudden rise in the price of but use the public abattoir, is being dis­ meat in the American, English, or any other advantaged by the competitive price overseas market. The meat monopolies influence of other works who operate would have a particular interest and would primarily as export works, but have the clamour to send their meat overseas if there current economic advantage of merchandis­ was a chance of a sharp increase in their ing export cuts on the domestic market, profits. There is no indication in the thus providing such works with a sub­ committee's report as to what would happen stantial economic flexibility in the procure­ if this situation should arise, or how the ment of their livestock supplies in direct Brisbane beef market would then be supplied. competition with operators at the Brisbane Abattoir." Some time ago, when one company was vainly trying to gain entry to the metro­ There is nothing in the report of the com­ politan market, a representative of the com­ mittee of inquiry that shows to what extent pany was asked whether his company could that has affected the economy of the abattoir, guarantee cheaper meat for some time to or whether, after almost 30 years of economic come. He said that quite frankly the operations at that abattoir, it did contribute company could not forecast what would to the fact that in the last two years some­ happen in the future. It is quite evid~nt thing like £170,000 has been lost. Nor did that, if there were suddenly a lucrative the report of the committee of inquiry give market in some overseas country, these any cogent reason for limiting the abattoir people who have clamoured to get in on franchise to 1,000 head a day. the meat market in Brisbane (which I think The Minister paid tribute to the Govern­ was adequately covered by the operations of ment of the day when the abattoirs were the abattoir for a number of years) established for its foresight in the intro­ would not care two hoots about the meat duction of the principle of a public abattoir consumers in Brisbane. to ensure the hygienic processing of meat for consumption in the metropolitan area Mr. Hughes: Do you think they would-­ all under one roof, an establishment that would provide for efficiency in the marketing Mr. SHERRINGTON: I have only a few of hygienically treated meat. No reason has minutes. If the hon member wants to make been given in the report for curtailing the a speech, I ask him to do so. I will then operations of the board to 1,000 head a day. have an opportunity to interject. Although the Minister has said quite clearly It is rather interesting to note the com­ and distinctly that he is giving effect to position of the authority that is to be formed the findings of that committee of inquiry, following the report of the committee. There he has not disclosed the fate of the Metro­ is provision for a chairman, a representative politan Public Abattoir, as it will become of the producers, a representative of the known with the passing of this legislation. abattoirs, a representative of service works, Quite frankly, I think this is a question and so on, but no reference is made to rep­ that needs answering. From the Annual resentation of the public interest. The report Report of the Queensland Meat Industry of the 1928 royal commission contained Board for the year ended 30 June, a specific reference to a representative of 1964, we learn that the average weekly the public interest on the· abattoir board and cattle slaughterings for the domestic trade I believe that a member of the Meat Industry this year were 1,986, compared with averages Employees' Union should be on the authority of 2,257 in 1962-63 and 2,637 in the peak in this capacity. year of 1956-57. The report shows that the committee recommends a cut in the kill to Mr. SULUVAN (Condamine) (7.59 p.m.): 1,000 head a day and what is possibly worse, As I have been in Tasmania, this is the first not only is the figure to be set at 1,000 head, opportunity I have had of speaking since but it is never to be increased. It sounds Parliament reassembled. I am indeed pleased to me very much like a death sentence, or to be here today to participate in this debate like the case of a person who has his papers and listen to the views advanced by hon. endorsed, "Never to be released." members on both sides of the Chamber. I It seems that there has been a succumbing commend the Minister for the way in which to the pressures in this State from the various he introduced the measure. With all due deference to the Leader of the Opposition, meat monopolies for permission to enter the this is something for which the producers Brisbane market. Apparently the Govern­ have been waiting for many years. Leading ment has finally succumbed to the pressure. the debate for the Opposition, he claimed I pay a tribute to the late Hon. 0. 0. that the Government had been "pressurised" Madsen, who steadfastly refused to yield to by the Liberal section of the coalition. That this pressure for entry into the Brisbane meat is so absurd that it does not warrant con­ market. tradiction or comment. 2810 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

Since I have been in this Chamber I, and for the obvious reason that if there were the man whom I_ succeeded, Mr. Sparkes, .a no service works in Brisbane producers man more qualified than most men m could get into the clutches of big business Queensland, and in the Commonwealth for interests. It will thus be seen that he is that matter, to speak on beef matters, have a fair-minded man and typical of most al_ways advocated what is envisaged in the men in the beef industry. Bill. To say that the Country Party section The report, of course, recommended that of the coalition has been opposed to this the Brisbane Abattoir be rebuilt as a service Ill:easure and ~as been "pressurised" by the works to a treatment capacity of 1,000 head Liberal Party 1s so much utter-there is a of cattle a day, or perhaps slightly in excess word for it. of that. That was readily acceptable to Mr. Murray: They are bereft of argument. him. Mr. SULLIVAN: I thank the hon. member Some may ask why growers want to see for Clayfield. I shall not endeavour to the kill at the Brisbane Abattoir reduced. comply with the normal rules of debate and To those of us who have grown up in refute the arguments put up by members the industry, answering that question is of the Opposition; I know that the Minister fairly elementary. Mr. Sparkes has for will do that very effectively. So many hon. many years claimed that the most successful members opposite have been thrashing the way to produce beef acceptable to the air. Perhaps we should tolerate that because consumer is to have it treated as close as they might know something about the point possible to the point of production. I think of view of the consumers; on the contrary that those who, for political or other reasons, we, as the Government, know the point of are violently opposed to what is envisaged view of bot4 the producer and the consumer. in the Bill will not argue on that point. After all, we all know that over the years The Government's decision to appoint the committee of inquiry to inquire into and stock have been brought to Cannon Hill investigate all aspects of the meat industry by rail, in the main, or perhaps road transport, was a wise one. During the course of the and, because of the capacity of the works and debate the Government has been criticised the number required to be killed here, it for appointing a committee consisting of has been necessary to hold them for days, men from outside the State. The hon. mem­ during which very great wastage has taken ber for Rockhampton South hit the nail on place. the head when he said that in doing that People in the industry realise that it we appointed men who were unbiased and is essential to have a killing works in Brisbane had no personal interest in the matter. The to provide for local consumption and for men who were engaged in this inquiry had a those operators who are exporting. There wealth of knowledge; they were the top men is no doubt that the Cannon Hill market in this class of inquiry, and had been used is the thermometer of prices throughout the in the same way in other parts of the Com­ State. On many occasions, particularly in monwealth. For those reasons their recom­ the more far-flung areas such as the Gulf mendations should be accepted. country, the North-west, and many parts of The decision to do away with the franchise Central Queensland, cattle are sold in the in Brisbane is something that has been paddock. Today, with market reports readily advocated by prodcers for many years. There available in radio bulletins, graziers or are many reasons for that. I shall quote the fatteners are pretty well acquainted with case of one man whom the Minister for the run of the market. If a grazier has Works and Housing and I know very well. a buyer coming out to look at a mob He is Stuart Redman, one of the top fatteners of cattle, he knows very well when the buyer of cattle in Queensland. To send his cattle offers a price if he is near the market or to Cannon Hill by road transport costs him is having a shot at him. 10s. per 100 lb. in wastage and bruising; on Reference has been made to the reduction a 600 lb. or 700 lb. beast, that represents of the kill at the Brisbane Abattoir to 1,000 £3 or £3 1Os. This man fattens a large head a day. In recent years, I think 13 or number of cattle. He pays big prices for 14 private abattoirs have been established his store cattle and runs them on dear within a radius of 200 miles from Brisbane. country. He sells all of his cattle to Keong They are to a large extent treating beef at Oakey. They are conveyed by road trans­ killed for export. I have been given figures port. We have to take notice of men like him. that show that in the last 12 months approximately 220,000 head of cattle have This man-I mention him only as an been slaughtered at the Brisbane Abattoir. example-is one of many in the same That works out to approximately 1,000 head locality who think the same way. When the report of the committee of inquiry was a day. about to be released, he was a little I feel that the Government is acting concerned. Press statements had been wisely in giving this freedom to people published and recommendations had been associated with the meat industry. I feel made to the committee, and he felt it that this will be a wonderful thing for possible that the committee would recom­ the producer and for the consumer, too. mend closing down the Brisbane Abattoir We must bear in mind that the trend now completely. He was very opposed to that, is away from the more mature type of beef Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2811

and towards younger beef. There is no but the fat-lamb industry is very closely doubt that the closer to the point of associated with grain-growing in Queensland, production it can be killed, the better will and I believe that, although it is more or be the beef that goes onto the plate of less in its infancy, it should receive the the consumer. Hon. members opposite claim serious consideration of the Government. A to be putting a case on behalf of the very good class of fat lamb is produced on consumer. Surely that is what the consumer the Darling Downs, and for some time we wants. I think that ample proof has been have been considering the possibility of put forward, too, to show that beef killed extending our market to North Queensland. close to the point of production can also I may add, Mr. Hodges, that I have brought be put on the table at a price considerably this matter to the notice of the Government lower than that of beef from a beast that previously and the Minister is well aware of has to be transported live to Brisbane and my thoughts on it. killed here. In North Queensland, no fat Iamb or Mr. Murray: We don't want a mob of prime lamb of British breed is produced. pikers like those who sit on the Opposition For that reason, I feel that special considera­ benches. tion should be given to this industry in an endeavour to extend it. The sucker lamb will Mr. SULLIVAN: No. I was perhaps a not travel. It is of a perishable nature, and little bit disappointed because the report of for that reason the closer to home it can be the committee of inquiry did not recommend slaughtered and delivered to a market the another meatworks somewhere on the Darling more to its advantage it will be. With the Downs. recommendation and what is envisaged by this Bill, namely that the Townsville abattoir Mr. Dufficy: Or perhaps farther out. shall retain its franchise, we are deprived Mr. SULLIVAN: The hon. member can of the opportunity of putting carcass lamb put that argument forward when he gets an into the Townsville abattoir area, and also opportunity. I represent an area on the into the Bundaberg abattoir area. Meetings Darling Downs in which some of the best of lamb-growers have indicated their keen­ cattle in Queensland are produced, fattened, ness to extend into these areas. I had an and sold, and for that reason I will argue opportunity this afternoon to discuss this that it would be better placed somewhere matter with the Minister very briefly, and I in that area. should like him to give us some assurance on it. I have indicated to him previously A. very good case was put to the committee that the chairman of the Townsville Abattoir of inquiry in Dalby. Admittedly there is Board, Mr. Strube, would be prepared, seeing a meatworks at Toowoomba and Keong's that lamb is not produced in the Townsville meatworks at Oakey, and no doubt both area or anywhere close to it, to allow those draw their cattle from the Dalby Queensland carcass lamb into the Townsville saleyards. It is not for me to say whether abattoir area. Through you, Mr. Hodges, I an additional meatworks should be situated should like the Minister's assurance that he at Dalby or farther west-at Chinchilla, will make every endeavour to see that that say-and I think that is something that the privilege is offered to the producers of fat proposed authority possibly could recom­ lambs in Queensland. mend to anyone who might be tempted to build a killing works in the area. With the Mr. Tbackeray: How many would you development of the brigalow country and turn off a year. the swing to crop-fattening of cattle and better husbandry of the soil, the turn-off of Mr. SULLIVAN: I am not pushing my fat cattle and sheep in the area probably will own barrow. I run about 350 ewes and I induce someone to consider the possibility of turn off about 300, but I am speaking on establishing a meatworks there in the near behalf of all fat-lamb growers in my area. future. I realise that it is possible for some­ I may be reiterating and boring members one to build a meatworks there now if he of the Government because I have spoken gets an export licence; but unfortunately, on this before, but, for the benefit of the under the recommendations of the committee, Committee and those members opposite who as I understand the position, he will not have might be interested, under the present system access to the Brisbane market. If that is Queensland lamb-growers are at a very dis­ not correct, I am sure the Minister will tinct disadvantage compared with New South correct me in his reply. As I said, the Wales growers, who, under Section 92 of the report was a disappointment to me in that Commonwealth Constitution, can put their respect, because the figures put forward-! carcass lamb into the Townsville area. After am not going to bore hon. members with all, many of them are possibly closer to them-by the people who put the proposal Townsville than the Darling Downs is, and to the committee of inquiry did not, in my they do this with no competition from us opinion, receive the favourable consideration because, under present conditions, we cannot that they deserved. do it. An industry new to Queensland-the fat­ Mr. Murray: Over the years the only lamb industry-has been mentioned during mutton in North Queensland was frozen ewe the debate. Most hon. members have mutton from Melbourne, so your proposition directed their attention to the beef industry; is very sound. 2.812 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

Mr. SULLIVAN: I thank the hon. member close look at the lamb industry there. Pro­ for Clayfield for his interjection that my ducers go in for intensive farming on very proposition is sound. I would not be putting small areas. They turn the lambs off at it forward unless I thought it was. a bout 10 or 11 weeks. They are raising them Mr. O'Donnell: According to the meat in summer months on natural pasture whereas industry report there is little increase in the we do it in the winter months off crops­ fat-lamb industry in Queensland. oats and things of that nature. Mr. SULLIVAN: I can assure the hon. Mr. O'Donnell: What would be the member for Barcoo-- Queensland lamb slaughterings per month in the last 12 months? About 20,000? Mr. O'Donnell: Assure the people who wrote the report. Mr. SULLIVAN: Oh, no! Mr. SULLIVAN: He would know that we Mr. O'Dmme!l: Against 300,000 a year can produce fat lambs on the Darling introduced from New South Wales. Downs-- Mr. SULLIVAN: At a rough guess the Mr. O'Donneli: That is right. slaughterings in Queensland would be far in excess of 100,000. Mr. SULLIVAN: Equally as good as any­ thing produced in New South Wales. All we Mr. Dufficy: To what extent? want is an opportunity to market them and we do not want to be at a disadvantage. I The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. should like the assurance of the Minister that Hodges): Order! I remind the hon. me;'Dber everything is being done in this regard in that he is not obliged to reply to mter­ order that lamb-growers will get their jections. deserts. Mr. SULLIVAN: I was of the opinion that The fat-lamb industry has extended from the hon. members were seeking genuine the Darling Downs out into the St. George information. area. The hon. member for Balonne is not here but he could bear me out in this. (Time expired.) Although it seems hard to believe, hon. Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (8.24 p.m.): I members would know that we have an listened with great interest to the Minister's irrigation scheme on the Balonne River and introduction of this measure and the speeches farmers on 600 acres and 800 acres are pro­ made by other hon. members opposite. It ducing lambs. I have followed the sales at seems strange to me that although this Bill Cannon Hill through the columns of deals with the Brisbane Abattoir and abattoirs "Queensland Country Life", and the prices in other cities throughout Queensland, as they are getting for their fat lambs compare well as abattoirs in country centres, as yet very favourably with those on the Darling we have not heard any opinions from Liberal Downs. We have spent a lot of money there members. I suppose that is because they giving these farmers water but I think we have been told-- should go further now and assist them in the marketing of their product. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Hodges): Order! I ask the hon. member to At a recent meeting in Dalby there was deal with the Bill before the Committee. talk about the road transport of lambs to Townsville for slaughter at the Townsville Mr. HOUSTON: There have been many abattoir. The Minister indicated this after­ interjections by hon. members opposite. I noon that the board had reduced the killing intended to refer to them. However, falling charge from 9s. to 5s., but to my mind to into line with your wishes, Mr. Hodges, I will transport sucker lambs over 900 miles is just not pursue that line of thought. not economic. The figure given to me was that it would cost about 18s. a head com­ It may be said with truth that this Bill pared with 3s. or 4s. a carcass if they were will go down in history as one of this killed close to the point of production. If Government's great confidence tricks. Over sucker lambs were on road transport for 36 the years we have seen many attempts by hours, by the time they got to Townsville various firms to convince Premiers and the meat would be nothing like the same Ministers for Primary Industries to carry quality as if they were killed locally. out exactly what is being done by the Government today. An article emanating Mr. Thackeray: What would be the average from Thomas Borthwicks confirms that state­ weight of the carcasses? ment. I will read it for the information of hon. members- Mr. SULLIVAN: Different butchers like them at different weights, but about 30 to "The company has made many 32 lb. When I was getting some figures from approaches to the present and previous one of the agents in Bri·sbane I was told Premiers, Messrs. Nicklin, Gair and that producers are sending lambs as far as Hanlon; to Agriculture Ministers, Messrs. Townsville by rail. They are around 38 to Madsen and Collins, and Treasurers, 40 lb., but they are not sucker lambs. When Messrs. Hiley and Walsh, and to the I was in Tasmania recently I had a fairly Q.M.I.B. itself. Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2813

"Despite arguments we have submitted the abattoir. Unfortunately, in practice, that showing how permission to allow this number was not reached. Therefore the killing would be of benefit to Brisbane and budget was not balanced. the rest of the State it has been withheld." I do not want to quote the Minister's reply Over a long period, those gentlemen, who at length. So many other factors come in belonged to Labour Governments and the that the loss of £170,000 over two years at present Government, refused to carry out the Brisbane Abattoir would not be a trading what I believe is only a confidence trick. loss but a book-entry loss, taking into It has been said that this legislation, above account moneys used for capital expenditure everything else, will provide cheaper meat and factors ouside the normal control of for Brisbane people and other consumers in the board. Therefore it is wrong to say Queensland. However, no evidence has been that the Brisbane Abattoir operated at a advanced by the Minister, nor is there any financial loss to the State. The only error in this report, or from any Government made was the assumption as to the number speaker, to show that, in fact, Queensland of cattle that would pass through the abattoir, consumers will get cheaper or better meat. and as a result the charges were lower than they should have been. Let us look at what determines the price The Bill provides that the number of of beef, mutton, lamb, veal or any other cattle to be treated at the Brisbane Abattoir product sold in a butcher shop. There is the will not exceed 1,000 a day. That means cost of the beast in its live state, the pro­ that the killing charges at the Brisbane cessing charges, the wholesale profit margin, Abattoir will be increased because it will be the retail profit margin, the various cartage faced with the same overhead expenditure charges associated with the transport of the and capital outlay charges. It is true that live beast and, later on, the cost of trans­ under the Can-pak system the number of porting the carcass. On top of that there employees has been substantially reduced and are the wages of the employees at the that there has been an increase in wages dur­ butcher shop and the wholesale establishment. ing the same period, so that in regard to In all of these variables, the only charge costs, one would balance the other. When related to an abattoir, particularly the Bris­ the five companies said that their charges bane Abattoir, is the killing charge. It does would be no more than those at the Bris­ not matter whether the abattoirs are privately bane Abattoir, I feel sure that they had in owner or publicly owned; the only factor by mind the fact that the abattoir charges would which they can bring about a reduction in be increased because of the reduced kill. the price of meat is the killing charge. As the Minister admitted when I spoke on Over the years the abattoir has had an his Estimates, the charges at the Brisbane average sheep and lamb killing of 4,800. A Abattoir are the cheapest in Australia. I Government member said that if the private think he will also agree that these charges firms came into the Brisbane district they were cheap because they were based on would do some of the sheep and lamb killing. factors with which no other killing establish­ He said that quite a substantial number ment in Queensland could compete. For a would be killed by the private firms and not start, at that time they were based on a very at the Brisbane Abattoir. As there is only' efficiently run abattoir where the cost of one major company at present, namely production, machines, and so on, were kept Borthwicks, I take it that that company to a minimum and the men working there would come into this type of killing. That turned out a product second to none in the will again increase the charges that the State. Because of those factors the operating abattoir will have to impose to balance its costs at the Brisbane Abattoir were the budget. cheapest in the Commonwealth. In fact, the Apart from all those matters, according to figures in New South Wales at abattoirs of a the report on which the Government bases similar nature where the killing charges and its case the committee says that it does not processing charges are known, are far above expect any increase in the consumption of ours. It is strange that in this report, every mutton and lamb in the foreseeable future. time the companies concerned were asked If the committee does not expect any increase for their killing charges or processing charges, in consumption, there must be a reduction in none could give a figure. They said, "We the number killed at the Brisbane Abattoir. will charge the same as the Brisbane It has been said that, because of com­ Abattoir." That is ridiculous. They cannot petition, the quality of the meat will be just say they will equal something unless improved. Surely we are not going to try to they have facts to back up the statement. fool the public into thinking that the Bris­ Apparently the committee of inquiry accepted bane Abattoir, which is purely a processing their statement. works, at any stage of the game owns the cattle or sheep that pass through its pro­ The present charges are based on a killing cessing works. The cattle are owned either far in excess of what the abattoir turned by meat companies or by private butchers. out last year and the year before that. It They buy cattle from producers or their is unfortunate that when the charges were agents and send them to the Brisbane worked out, I presume by the board's Abattoir merely to be killed and dressed. accountant, he assumed that a certain How then can the abattoir have any influence number of cattle would be passing through at all on the quality of the product? 2814 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

Mr. Hugbes: Competition will force them Borthwicks know that, once they have to kill better beasts. this franchise, the way is open for them t~ supply their own shops. I know that It Mr. HOUSTON: I am astounded that a has been denied many times that once com­ Liberal member should try to make a speech panies such as this are allowed in they will by interjecting. I suggest that he listen monopolise the supply of meat. As the carefully and he might learn something. The hon. member for Salisbury pointed out, we facts are that the hon. member is the leader have seen what has happened with bread; we of a group of housewives who come to him have seen what has happened with hotels; and complain about prices. Only a few weeks we have seen what has happened with service ago he himself made a public statement stations. There is no guarantee that, once to the effect that he was shocked at in­ they are given the right to supply to the creases in the price of meat and meat pro­ Brisbane market, these companies will not ducts. Therefore if prices of meat are be able to squeeze out the man who conducts increasing, how can it be claimed that his own butcher shop or has a small suburban changing killing operations from the Brisbane butcher shop. As I said, as the price for Abattoir to private abattoir will reduce processing at the Brisbane Abattoir increases, prices? As I said before, during a period so the price charged by the private firms will of price increases the processing charge has increase, because it is well known that many remained constant at, I think, 36/6d. a beast. wholesalers have the' capacity to start their There must be other factors coming into it. own killing establishments if they so desire. The producer must be getting more for his stock, or the wholesaler or the retailer is The report of the committee of inquiry making a greater profit. I do not know which lays it down that there is no need f~r aJ?Y section of the industry is reaping most increase in the killing floor capacity m benefit and I am not concerned about it at Queensland and recommends against any this stage except to deny the assertion that overall increase. I believe that is why the allowing other operators in will make meat Government decided to restrict killing at the cheaper. Brisbane Abattoir-to allow private firms to come into Brisbane. After all, it is not It has also been suggested that a greater necessary to rebuild the whole of the variety of meats will be available. I notice Brisbane Abattoir. As I said earlier, the in the committee's report, in paragraph 79, meat hall is in first-class condition, the offices that the committee "recognises that the would not have to be touched, nor would operation of the franchise system is restrictive the greater part of the chilling rooms and to trade and limits the consumer's choice of the cold-storage space. Part of the slaughter­ meat." I do not see how the abattoir can house floor would have to be rebuilt­ limit the consumer's choice of meat; it incidentally, there are already tw? lines there, merely handles stock provided for treatment. which it is said will be sufficient for the It plays no part in determining where any 1,000 a day kill-and the tank-house urgent~y carcass goes to be sold. The person owning requires a great deal of work done on It. the beast receives the carcass when treated If the kill is reduced to 1,000 beasts a day, at the works and either puts it in a shop he as one hon. member opposite said, there will owns or sells it to a retailer whom he supplies. be an excess of cold-storage space at the From that stage the type of meat sold is abattoir. From this point of view, the kill entirely up to the butcher concerned. If a could be increased. However, to come into retail butcher decides that he wants only the line with the requirements of the report an? legs of sheep or trunks, or some other type to give Borthwicks entry to the market, It of meat, he buys accordingly. It does not was necessary to reduce the kill at the matter how much we may like fillet; there Brisbane Abattoir. is only a limited amount available from each beast, as everyone knows. I believe it is It has been said that the proposed change completely false to claim that the Bill will will create more work in the industry. I do all these things. do not see how it can, because the report lays down clearly that there will _not be I think it important to consider what has any increase in the kill. Of course, 1t could happened in recent years. As I mentioned mean that men will change from one before, Thomas Borthwick & Sons Ltd. in employer to another, and I hope that they particular have for many years been agitating will be good employers and carry out the for the right to enter the domestic market. terms of the award and be prepared to meet Of course, it is easy to see why. This the men's wishes. I agree with the hon. company has an export licence and there are member for Fassl!ern that on too many times when it has gluts of cattle. It is also occasions over the years the board has not true that there are times when the export been prepared to meet the union on many market is very unstable. It would be very matters requiring urge11t attention, and I hope nice and profitable for it to have the local that the change of name from the Queensland market to fall back on at such times. Over Meat Industry Board to the Metropolitan the years meat suppliers have said to the Public Abattoir Board will bring about housewives, "You cannot have these cuts," a better understanding of the problems or, "The price of this type of meat has of employees in the meat industry. I increased because it is in short supply." We have indicated at other times that I know, too, that the quality of cattle varies have had a rather close association according to the seasons. with them and I know some of the Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2815

difficulties under which they work. So financial return to those associated with their far as I personally am concerned the men control. I suppose that is business, but from who work in freezers and on the' slaughter­ the workers' point of view, from the point floor, no matter how !lluch they are paid, of view of the man who is essential to the earn far less than therr occupation entitles industry, the position is very unsatisfactory. them to. I urge the Minister at this stage, which Last but not least, at this stage I must refer perhaps is the only time I can say this and to the decision that has been made. The get away with it, to make sure in his adminis­ Minister can correct me if I am wrong in tration of this law that that is the purpose my interpretation of what he said, namely in introducing it. that in times of industrial dispute the Govern~ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. ment . will allow these . unregistered killing Hodges): Order! I draw the attention of establishments or abattmrs, whatever it likes hon. members to the fact that, although the to call them, to supply meat to the board Chair has no desire to stifle discussion, up to area where the industrial dispute is taking the present time there have been 12 speakers place. on this measure, there are six more speakers _Mr. Row: They are not unregistered. We to come, and much of what has been put wrll do the same as your Government did forward can be classified only as tedious and bring in meat from other areas. repetition. I remind hon. members that if this tedious repetition continues the Chair Mr. HOUSTON: They are fully registered will be forced to apply Rule 141. abattoirs? Mr. WHARTON (Burnett) (8.50 p.m.): I Mr. Row: Yes. rise to support the Bill. I hope, in deference Mr. HOUSTON: Meeting all health to your ruling, Mr. Hodges, that I will not requirements and, up to the time of the be guilty of tedious repetition. Unfortunately industrial dispute, supplying their own board a certain amount of repetition is unavoidable area subject to State inspection? and, after all, you have given the previous 12 speakers a fair amount of latitude. Mr. Row: Yes, the same as we did in the I compliment the Minister on his presenta­ seven weeks' strike last year. We brought tion of the Bill. It is a fairly lengthy one in meat from outside. with rather wide ramifications. In the past Mr. HOUSTON: I know the Government the Act has been used to advantage, and it brought in meat from outside. However, I has been effective enough in days gone by, do not want to touch any further on the but today we are considering new legislation, industrial side. The only point I wished to which makes many significant alterations to clarify was that the Government will bring the Act. in meat during an industrial dispute. I am All hon. members will appreciate that in not necessarily discussing whether it is right the meat industry there have been many or wrong. I simply wanted to make sure fluctuations not only in supply and demand that the killing works from which the meat but in the fortunes of those associated with is brought are up to the standard of the the industry. The Bill is based on the works that normally supply the Brisbane area. findings of the committee of inquiry, which Mr. Row: They are all licensed. was appointed by the Government to weigh the pros and cons of the meat industry. I Mr. HOUSTON: So long as they are all think I can claim to be a practical man in licensed, that is one feature that we shall this field, having had experience in the pro­ have to look at when we get the Bill. duction of beef and, to some extent, with the processing companies. I think I am in I know that the Government has the a position to appreciate the problems of numbers and once we have given our reasons both the producer and the processor. I we have to make the best of the legislation know all hon. members will appreciate that no matter how poor it may be. However, the Burnett area provides much of the State's I urge upon the Minister to ensure that the best-quality beef, veal and pig-meats. employees in the industry have a more constant future than they have had over the The Bill has two very significant features, last few years. The meat industry is a one being the setting up of a State authority, skilled industry. I know people who have the other being the restriction or relieving said, "He is only a meat-worker", but anyone of the franchise system. With the establish­ who knows anything about the industry will ment of a State authority, at long last we realise that it is not everyone who can carry will have somewhere to go with our out the various classes of work that have to problems. For too long we have not known be done, and one of the main problems where to go on a State basis with our causing industrial trouble is that there is no problems. We have had the Brisbane guarantee of continuity of employment. That Abattoir, various abattoirs in provincial is why I suggest to the Minister that in the cities, and various types of slaughter-houses, Brisbane Abattoir-a public abattoir con­ but no single authority other than the trolled by the Government through its repre­ Department of Primary Industries to turn to. sentatives-he take action to maintain con­ I feel that the establishment of this authority tinuity of employment. Naturally, the private will do a great deal to solve many of the shows operate purely and simply for the present problems. 2816 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

It will be one of its functions to cater Many meat products are processed and for the needs of new abattoirs. I do not packaged for the food halls, but with pork want to go into the reasons for the financial the field is restricted. I believe they could difficulties of the abattoirs at Roma or handle pork and pickled pork. There is a Biloela. Probably they were not sufficiently wide market for pickled pork. If they could financed but I will not go into the ramifica­ handle pork and pickled pork, they would do tions of their difficulties. a great deal for pig producers. In this way, This new authority will be used to advan­ pork and pig products would be marketed tage in the allocation of works to cater for more in keeping with the consumer's the State's slaughtering needs. It may place demands and, if we meet the consumer's some restriction on the establishment of demands, we are acting in the interests of abattoirs but, at the same time, the oppor­ the producer as well. tunity will be there for those who wish to There is no question that the franchise establish them to make an approach to the system has been necessary in the past. When authority when the matter will be considered one starts something new, one needs some in a businesslike way to ensure that we do protection but the aid cannot be continued not have the establishment of killing works for ever. If it were, we would have ringed, or abattoirs on a willy-nilly basis. or franchise, areas around Brisbane and the We must realise that there have been times other provincial cities in the State, with a when the franchise areas have been very resultant restriction of trade. The bad effect necessary. It is necessary to have some of the franchise system is that it restricts protection but, having gone through that trade. If the system had been continued, it stage, we now want to trade. The authority would have restricted trade in the city. It can handle the needs in franchise areas. As was impossible to market pig products the hon. member for Condamine said, where cheaply in Ipswich. The producers had to there is an area with a shortage of lambs, take them to the Ipswich abattoir for killing, there wiii be an authority to say, if there then bring them down to a part of Brisbane are lambs to spare elsewhere, "There is a for processing before they could be submitted market for them." The authority can enter to the customer at Ipswich for sale. It can an area, again not willy-nilly but in a be seen that in this particular case franchises businesslike way, to help not only the area restrict trade, and anything that restricts that has them available but the area that trade should not be fostered. It is no good needs them. I think that is a particular to the consumer, and therefore it is no good field in which the authority could be used to the producer. to great advantage. When the authority is In Brisbane it is proposed to establish a established, I hope it will be able to look meatworks to handle 1,000 head a day. That at some of the marketing problems of the is a good thought. As the throughput will be industry. constant, it must be handled efficiently and Much has been said about beef but I wish economically, and that will ensure a par­ to refer to the marketing of pigs. More than ticular kind of killing facility acceptable to 500,000 pigs are slaughtered annually. That the producers and to the processors who will figure may not seem large compared with the want the stock treated there. If there is a number of cattle sold, but it is significant. shortage, beef can be brought in from other There are a number of processing plants areas. The best and most economical way to for pigs, which have a great influence on put beef onto the Brisbane market is on the the economy of many people in the State, hook, not on the hoof, and this proposal namely dairy farmers and pig producers. aims at that. A facet of the work of the authority could The Brisbane Abattoir will cater also for be the investigation of the marketing of pork. the export market, which is rather important I do not wish to traverse the ramifications to the grazier and to the dairying industry. of the bacon industry, because it is not a The export market has assisted dairying part of the Bill, but if we are to help the more than any other section of the industry. pig producer we must find a larger market The dairying industry has been faced with for pork. If we expand the market for pork, many difficulties, including droughts; the one we expand the market for bacon and bring bright spot has been the export market for to the industry a stability that has been surplus dairy cattle. The export market has lacking because, in recent times, there have helped the grazing industry generally also. been wide fluctuations in prices owing to The ability of the processors to cater for supply and demand factors influencing the the home market and also the export market sale of bacon products. If we could sell the makes for continuity of production and con­ bulk of the product as pork, we would do a tinuity of employment. great deal for the stabilisation of the price The Bill gives a new atmosphere to freer for pig products. At present, pork is mar­ marketing with a splash of private enter­ keted mainly in butcher shops, and I have prise, all to the good of the whole com­ no quarrel with that. However, we are living munity. Stability, competition, and freedom in modern times. The great bulk of food, will bring untold benefits to the producers such as poultry, is sold in delicatessens or and the housewives, will be of assistance to the food halls of the chain stores. That is the economy through returns from the export where the customer naturally goes to buy market, and will ensure continuity of employ­ such products as pork and pickled pork. ment. Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2817

Mr. BENNEIT (South Brisbane) (9.4 United Graziers' Association the Government p.m.): This Bill is typical of the anti-Queens­ could well feel fortified in accepting the land legislation that we are regularly receiv­ propositions unanimously put forward by ing from this Government. One would think people representing industry interests in that as we have set the path for meat pro­ Queensland. I have no doubt that the hon. duction, meat export, and the handling of member for Roma will agree with what meat in Australia since 1931, we would not I have just said. As a Queenslander with need to go outside the confines of this State Queensland interests at heart, I feel rather to be dictated to or advised by people who disappointed that his arguments were drowned do not understand what has developed in by Liberal Party interests in Caucus when Queensland over a number of years with this important legislation was under public ownership. It seems strange that the discussion. committee of inquiry that the Government and the Minister appointed was originally I do not suppose that the hon. member composed entirely of men with no direct for Roma, or others with interests in the knowledge of the Queensland industry. After land, would say that the United Graziers' some pressure was applied, the Government, Association makes idle claims or puts before with some reluctance, appointed Mr. Charles the public falsehoods or misrepresentations. Lloyd Harris as an additional member. It claims in effect that since 1945 Thomas Borthwick & Sons Ltd. have been trying Mr. Row: What utter rot! to break the Brisbane Abattoirs' monopoly Mr. BENNEIT: Mr. Harris is even listed of the Brisbane meat trade. When the in the report that I have before me as Government has, since 1931, succesesfully "Additional Member", and no doubt, when operated the Brisbane Abattoir, is there any he was drawn into discussion with the three reason why the recommendation made in other members from outside Queensland, he a report by men who have not lived under was well aware of the fact that his appoint­ the meat trade conditions that have prevailed ment was an afterthought. If the Govern­ in this State for a quarter of a century should ment wanted to be advised on methods be accepted? applying in other States, one would have The chairman of the cattle committee of expected the appointment of perhaps one the United Graziers' Association, Mr. R. S. man from another State and the consideration Wilson, who is well known as the man from of materi.al from other States or, alternatively, Calliope station and who, I am reliably !he appomtment of a Queensland committee, informed, is a good authority on matters If Government members are loyal Queens­ of this nature, said that this report, which Janders, and the calling of evidence by is being blindly adopted by the Government, experts from outside the State. This would appeared to be an unrealistic document that have been preferable to allowing people did not look far enough into the future. from outside Queensland not only to control Mr. Wilson takes the argument one step the committee but to be the committee, further than I have done so far. I say that with the exception of one man who was these gentlemen have ignored the results appointed under sufferance. I do not think that have been achieved under public owner­ that the Minister and the Government acted ship of the Brisbane Abattoir over a quarter very satisfactorily in this matter. of a century; Mr. Wilson says that the whole document is unrealistic and does not look For once I agree with the protest lodged far enough into the future. When we are by the United Graziers' Association, and making drastic changes of this nature, which I fail to understand why the Government will strike at the very kernel of the meat is thumbing its nose at that organisation in industry in Queensland, surely there is one this matter. essential thing to which we must have regard-how we are going to fare in the Mr. Ramsden: There are a Jot of things future. As I said, Mr. Wilson, a responsible you fail to understand. That is one of your authority, said that the report does not look main failings. far enough into the future. Mr. BENNETI: I do not want any inane He said-it is a serious claim for him to interjections from the Queen Street cowboys make, but I believe it is true-that because in the Liberal Party who are dictated to of recent happenings in the meat industry the by the pastoral companies. report was out of date even before it was handed to the Government. This is the The arguments advanced by the United third month of the year 1965, and the report Graziers' Association through its cattle is a 1964 report. We are framing 1965 committee were supported largely by the legislation on recommendations made in 1964. Australasian Meat Industry Employees' As I said, Mr. Wilson said that the report is Union. Once again one would have expected already an anachronism because it is out that the Government would have taken of date. cognizance of the. arguments advanced by He went on to say that while the com­ the United Graziers' Association. Whilst the mittee had acknowledged that the largest Government has scorned union suggestions increase in production would come in the on many occasions, much to its sorrow in Central Queensland brigalow area, it could recent times, when a union supports the not recommend any new killing facilities submissions · of an association such as the for the area, which already was railing past 2818 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill existing meatworks upwards of 200,000 head Brisbane. If I am wrong, I suggest that of cattle a year. Incidentally, I am referring you name the member who made those to a claim by Mr. Wilson on 4 November submissions. 1964. Almost five months ago he said that The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. these recommendations and reports were out of date. Just how much more are they out Campbell): Order! There is no point of order. of date now? In spite of this, the Minister Mr. BENNE'IT: With respect to you, Mr. is still prepared to accept the report submitted Campbell, you were inte_rjecting today, as a by people from the South. back-bench member, m a very nasty Mr. Wilson rejects the report in toto, not fashion-- piecemeal or in part, as the hon. member for Port Curtis points out to me. Furthermore, The TEMPORARY CHAffiMAN (Mr. there is no real indication in the report as Campbell): Order! I ask the hon. memb~r to whether or not the Queensland repre­ to continue his speech and to relate his sentative-the afterthought, the sufferance remarks to the matter introduced by the man-agreed with it. It was not much use Minister, otherwise I shall ask him to resume his disagreeing; he was outnumbered three his seat. to one. Mr. BENNE'IT: I hope you do not persist On 4 November 1964, Mr. Wilson forecast with the gag, Mr. Campbell, because~ that soon the need for additional public killing facilities would be more than urgent. The TEMPORARY CHAffiMAN (Mr. The Central Queensland Meat Export Com­ Campbell): Order! That remark is a reflection pany had stated that its new works at Lake's on the Chair and I ask the hon. member to Creek would kill only 800 head of cattle a resume his seat. I now call on the hon. day in lieu of the present 1,100 head. He member for Kurilpa. went on to say that as the report recom­ mended that the Queensland Meat Industry Mr. BENNETT: I move­ Board should kill only 1,000 head of cattle "That I be further heard." daily, in lieu of the present 2,100 head, it was difficult to see how the committee could Question-That the hon. member for say killing facilities were more than adequate South Brisbane be further heard (Mr. for many years to come. He then said Bennett's motion)-put; and the Committee that Borthwicks Brisbane branch manager, divided- Mr. W. S. Norton, said that the committee's recommendations now provided the Govern­ AYES, 23 ment with a blueprint for the next 10 years Mr. Bennett Mr. Lloyd ,, Brornley M ann and, if adopted, the recommendations would , Byrne Marsden allow greater freedom in the movement of , Davies Newton , Dean O'Donnell meat throughout the State and virtually would Donald , Sherrington bring Queensland into line with other States. , Dufficy , Thackeray , Graham Tucker Therein lies the crux or the argument , Hanlon Hanson Tellers: and the reason for this report. Men from , Houston the other States were trying to harness , Inch Mr. MelloY Queensland to the conditions that prevail in , Jones, R. , Wallis-Smith other States. NoES, 31 The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Mr. Anderson Mr. McKechnie , Armstrong Munro Campbell): Or:der! The previous occupant of , Bjelke-Petersen , Murray the chair drew the attention of the , Camm Nicklin Committee to the import of Rule 141 of the , Carey Pizzey , Chinchen Ramsden Standing Orders. I hope the hon. member Ewan Richter for South Brisbane will remember his , Herbert Row warning. Hiley Sullivan , Hodges Tooth , Hughes Wharton Mr. BENNETT: I submit, Mr. Campbell, , Jones, V. E. Windsor that the submissions made by me to date ,. Knox Lee Tellers: have not been made previously. , Lickiss , Lonergan Mr. Cory , Pilbeam The TEMPORARY CHAffiMAN (Mr. Low Campbell): Orde·r! The submissions that the PAIRS hon. member is now making have been made Mr. Duggan Mr. Chalk by other hon. members on my left, and if the , Gunn Dewar hon. member persists with them I will be , Baxter- Fletcher obliged to enforce Rule 141. Resolved in the negative. Mr. DUFFICY: I rise to a point of order. Mr. HUGHES (Kurilpa) (9.24 p.m.): I With respect, Mr. Campbell, I suggest that join with other hon. members on this side no other member of the Committee has in applauding the Bill. made any submissions along the lines of those made by the hon. member for South Opposition Members interjected. Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2819

Mr. HUGHES: If that is tedious repetition, their wake to the people of Brisbane some­ I want to be part of it. thing which they have not been able to enjoy for many years. The people of Brisbane Opposition Members interjected. have had to suffer under a Government Mr. HUGHES: If Labour members had sponsoring a socialist enterprise which in any regard for the workers they would not fact is a monoply. have sacked 2,000 men when they controlled Mr. Hanson: The United Graziers' Associ­ the Brisbane City Council. ation agrees with us. I believe that this Bill will bring about competition in the supply of meat to Brisbane. Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member for That is something else that the Labour Party Salisbury brought this matter up. He spoke do not want any part of. It is what has about monopolies. We are going to destroy made this country; it is what will keep us this monopoly of trade of its detrimental in government. It is against the plank of effect on trade and commerce, and on the Socialism. Again, that is why we on this consumers of this city. By this means we side believe that the people of Brisbane are will bring in competition, which is the life­ entitled to enjoy, through free enterprise, blood of our free-enterprise society. Hon. competition that will provide better quality members opposite who support the dissident beef, and there will be a greater chance to faction at Mt. Isa, who try to defend their reduce prices. indefensible conduct, who do not want any part of the things which are the privileges of I firmly believe that this measure will our democracy, should not be espousing their bring better quality meat to Brisbane, and views in this Chamber. I will explain my reasons as I continue. If we assimilate, analyse, and introduce Opposition Members interjected. in a workable fashion the recommendations of the members of the committee, I believe Mr. HUGHES: The rabble on my right we will open up Brisbane to the cattle fields, wish to keep up this pretence, this sham and to meat from other areas of the State. debate. On the one hand they say they How often have the people of Brisbane cried want to support the worker, yet on the other out for country-killed meat? The hon. hand they damn him into insignificance. The member for Belmont, who has just inter­ hon. member for South Brisbane said that jected, knows about it. If we go to Redcliffe, the Brisbane Abattoir, which has operated the South Coast, or any other area outside since 1928-- Brisbane we can get meat that we can eat. Mr. Bennett: If we had a good chairman I At Rockhampton meat is about 6d. a lb. would have advanced a lot more, too. cheaper than in Brisbane. In Redcliffe it is 2d. a lb. cheaper. If hon. members opposite The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. want to do something to help the workers, Campbell): Order! The Chair takes exception I suggest that they support the Bill. to the remark of the hon. member for South The public wants quality meat at the right Brisbane. I ask him to apologise. price, and the Bill provides for that. Mr. Bennett: Yes, I apologise. Mr. Hanson: Are you saying that members of the present board have been dishonest? Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member for South Brisbane said that there was no reason Mr. HUGHES: Of course not; but free to adopt the recommendations of the com­ enterprise can administer a business more mittee of inquiry. In my view there are a effectively and more economically. That has hundred-and-one reasons. More able people been proved on many occasions. than I, such as my colleagues from the Opposition Members interjected. Country Party, have advanced good reasons why we should adopt them. The men who Mr. HUGHES: These facilities are being comprised the committee were learned men. used to a great extent to treat chillers and First there was the chairman, the director crackers, and this meat is mixed with good of the Commonwealth Bureau of Agricultural meat. That is the core of the problem facing Economics. The second member was the the housewife. chairman of the New South Wales Meat Industry Board. The third member was the Mr. Hanson interjected. manager of the Goulburn Municipal Abattoir, and the fourth member of the committee was Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member for a special administration officer from the De­ Port Curtis has interjected. If he does not partment of Primary Industries. Those are know what the public of Brisbane is faced the men who were rubbished by the hon. with-- member for South Brisbane. They are men Opposition Members interjected. of undoubted ability and integrity, which we do not question. Why, then, should we Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member should question their recommendations and findings? be annoyed and embarrassed. The public We are entiled to debate their opinions and will applaud the Government for introducing findings, but I know that members of the this Bill because it has had to pay top Government parties believe that if the recom­ prices for poor-quality meat. The butchers mendations are adopted they will bring in have to accept the meat provided by the 2820 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

wholesalers. The hon. member for Salisbury I believe that the shopping public of Bris­ mentioned one matter worthy of comment, bane have not been fairly treated in the namely, the manner of delivery. quality of meat made available. Mr. Sherrington: You are coming in on the Price has to be related to quality. There grouter now. has been some good-quality meat available, and I do not think that meat prices generally Mr. HUGHES: I do not know what that for the guaranteed top-quality meats are too means. high. Opposition Members interjected. Opposition Members interjected. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Mr. HUGHES: I said "generally for top Campbell): Order! There is too much Irre­ quality." I have looked after a family and sponsible interjecting by hon. members on cooked and shopped for them and bought my left. I ask them to desist. more meat in the last 12 months than the hon. member for Salisbury has in his lifetime. I Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member for know that if one has sufficient time one can Salisbury has charged me with coming in on make even the toughest meat more tender. the grouter, whatever that means. Many housewives, however, have not sufficient Opposition Members interjected. time to do this. In many cases, the price paid for meat is more than its quality warrants. Mr. HUGHES: I have been out to the Mention has been made of the decrease West. I have been in the A.W.U. in the consumption of meat. This has been The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! greatly contributed to by the quality of meat I ask the hon. member to return to the available. To a great extent, buying meat is principles of the Bill. like a lucky dip; you may be lucky and YOU may not be. If you have tough luck, you Mr. HUGHES: The records will show that also have tough meat. The main complaint I have asked the Minister for Primary is not so much against price only as the Industries many questions about having a quality that goes with the price. Apart from proper, hygienic covering placed on meat. economic considerations, dozens of house­ I have seen many glaring examples of what wives are being forced-- is happening. I shall not give up my cam­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. paign to improve the manner in which meat Campbell): Order! I have given the hon. is delivered to the shops. Many butchers are member considerable latitude. The measure stuck with meat which they have to unload. does not extend to the retailing of meat, A good deal of cherry-picking goes on in and I now ask him to confine his remarks butcher shops. A certain amount of poor­ to the principles outlined by the Minister. quality meat is mixed with meat of a higher quality. If a sweet young thing of 17 Mr. HUGHES: Thank you, Mr. Camp­ goes into a butcher shop and gives a pleasant bell; I appreciate the point. smile to the butcher at the right time she is The Bill will bring about higher standards much more likely to walk out with 100 per not only in meat but in poultry as well, and, cent. good-quality meat than is anyone else. by competition, will open the Brisbane The dear old soul who may be on a pension market to other killing authorities. This will is likely to get more than her share of the produce wonderful benefits for the housewife 25 per cent. of the meat that is not of the who in the past may have been reduced to highest quality. That is what goes on in buying mince-meat and sausages. Country­ butcher shops. It is not the fault of the killed meat will be available in Brisbane, and proprietor, as he cannot watch every move­ the living standards of families will be raised. ment of his employees. I believe that the Bill will, in addition to providing competition, bring about a stability The point that I make is that in Brisbane of supply. It is well known that there have too much meat has been sold that is not up been interruptions to Brisbane's meat supply to the desired quality. I believe that the in the past. Bill, following recommendations of the com­ mittee of inquiry, will, if nothing else, by It has been mentioned that the Queensland opening up the market, bring about competi­ Meat Industry Board has lost about £200,000 tion in the meat trade that will have the in the last two years. That is certainly a con­ effect of bringing better meat to Brisbane. siderable capital cost. The Government has Prices will not be fixed, because competition been pouring money into the abattoir to prop provides the best means of fixing prices. I it up, and this expenditure must, of course, go so far as to say that in the meat trade be borne by the taxpayers. I believe that in Brisbane there will in the future be the reconstruction work at the abattoir will cost intense competition that one sees in the hundreds of thousands of pounds, and this, "wars" between petrol companies that pro­ of course, will have an important bearing on duce all the little extra services that motor­ the Government's decision in relation to ists receive. I believe that the Bill will pro­ recommendations made in the report of the duce fierce competition from which the one committee of inquiry. person who will receive dividends will be The Queensland Meat Industry Board will the shopping housewife. It is not before become the Metropolitan Public Abattoir time that she is to be given some assistance. Board, and I believe that its operations will be Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2821 confined largely to Greater Brisbane. This the grazing industry, was urged yesterday is a system similar to that used in Melbourne, by the association's president (Mr. C. B. , where the local authority owns the freehold Peter Bell). of the abattoir and killing is conducted not "The association's cattle committee met by it but by registered proprietors who buy yesterday. and kill their own cattle or who have con­ tractors to kill the cattle for them. I "At the meeting complaints were made believe that that system is preferable to that the industry did not have an oppor­ the one suggested for Brisbane. tunity of discussing some aspects of the Meat Industry Inquiry Committee's report The question then is: how can one simply with the Government before the Govern­ write off the tremendous capital asset repre­ ment implemented the findings late last sented by the Queensland Meat Industry year." Board's premises at Cannon Hill? To some extent, the continuance of the abattoir is a That is very important. He definitely stated counter measure to a completely free and that this legislation was introduced for the open market, but I believe that the public purpose of implementing the recommenda­ will get better meat as a result of this com­ tions included in the report. petition. I believe, too, that the competition He goes on to say- may have some effect in restraining unionists "Delegates were told that in an approach from again adopting the irresponsible attitude to the Primary Industries Minister (Mr. that they have on occasions displayed in Row) on the inquiry committee's report it strikes at the abattoir. It might almost be said was found too late for U.G.A. submis­ that at times the city has been held to ransom, sions to be considered." because housewives have had supplies of meat withheld from them as a result of This is action on the part of a Government unnecessary and unwarranted strikes. One which is predominantly Country Party repre­ is scheduled to take place on Friday, and sentative. if it is not the most abortive thing that has The article continues- ever happened, I do not know what is. It is wanton industrial lawlessness. "Mr. Bell said that because of this, practical experience of men in the industry As I said, the proposed Bill will allow meat had been lost." from other areas to come to Brisbane, and I believe that this will result in competition that "It would be of tremendous value to the will provide the city with cheaper and better Government and the grazing industry if meat. I have been striving for a long time to some of the industry's problems could be get better and cheaper meat in Brisbane. discussed so that a common front could be Some of my colleagues have put a made from the U.G.A. before action by great deal more work and research into the Government was implemented." this problem than I have-I know that you, Apparently it was a bit too late to have this Mr. Campbell, have taken a great interest in done because the Minister and the Govern­ the matter-and I believe that the Govern­ ment are now introducing, within a month, ment has made a realistic appraisal of the legislation which gives full effect to the position and has come to the correct decision recommendations of the committee of in deciding to make competition possible, inquiry. thus enabling wholesalers and retailers to To continue- give a better service to the public. "Mr. Bell said he intended to raise the Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (9.43 p.m.): This is matter with the Premier (Mr. Nicklin)." a very complex problem and requires the Quite obviously the sympathetic hearing he careful consideration of all hon. members got was completely non-existent- now, as well as at the second-reading and Committee stages of the Bill. It concerns "If the Premier was agreeable to some not only the wholesaling side of the industry form of better liaison he felt it could be -something which the Government has of great value to the Government and to emphasised-but also, and very importantly, the grazing industry in ironing out some those who produce the cattle, the consumers, of the industry's difficulties. and people who are employed in the industry. "The cattle committee was told that the To give an indication of the importance that Meat Inquiry Committee's report was sub­ cattle producers attach to this matter, I think mitted to the Primary Industries Minister it is essential that I have included in last October." "Hansard" an extract from a statement made That was the date of the completion of the on 9 February this year, about four months report. after the committee of inquiry established Mr. Bell continues- by the Government submitted its report, by the president of the United Graziers' Associa­ "It was subsequently discussed by tion, Mr. C. B. Peter Bell. The report has Cabinet and made available to the public. not been referred to by any other hon. "When the report was released the member in this debate, but it says- U.G.A. Cattle Committee chairman (Mr. "Closer liaison between Queensland R. S. Wilson) criticised it as an unrealistic Government ministers and the United document which did not look far enough Graziers' Association on matters affecting into the future." 2822 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

Quite obviously, from the report, that is not engaged in the meat industry in Queens­ correct. It is a report based purely and land. The Government now, in our opinion, simply on conjecture of what might or might and in the opinion of many people and not possibly happen in some years' time. associations in the community, has brought The article continues- this legislation forward without sufficient con­ sideration being given to what can happen "However, the Government adopted the as the result of its implementation. committee's findings on the building of a new and smaller abattoir at Cannon Hill. For some time this industry has been a It accepted the committee's recommenda­ matter of public concern. It started in 1958 tion that abattoirs killing for both export with a spate of publicity by the companies and domestic consumption should have about the quality and price of meat. We their franchises withdrawn. have very little sympathy for these meat "This means that killing in Brisbane will companies, who have very little interest in be open for competition, instead of being the welfare and future of the industry in a monopoly held by the Brisbane Abattoir Queensland. By engaging in the purchasing for most cuts of meat." of cattle and its wholesale distribution on the domestic and export market they are the ones I thank the hon. member for South Brisbane who make the large profits from the industry. for making that item available to me for To give an example of the inconsistency inclusion in "Hansard". of the Ministers in charge of this depart­ Mr. Bennett: I was stopped from doing it. ment I think it is necessary to go back to 1960 when matters came to a head because Mr. LLOYD: Sometimes Rule 141 of the of pressure applied to the Government, par­ Standing Orders is not completely applied ticularly from Liberal Party sources. Some either by you, Mr. Campbell, or some other sections of the Liberal Party were vociferous members occupying the position of Chairman about the necessity to take away from the of Committees. I think this question should Brisbane Abattofr the franchise that had have been made one of privilege and placed been in existence for many years. The then before the Speaker of the House. These Minister for Argiculture and Stock, the late matters are completely relevant; they are not Hon. 0. 0. Madsen, made many terse com­ matters of tedious repetition. ments at the time. I remind the Committee that in 1960 notice had been given of a Bill, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. and notice of motion was placed on the Campbell): Order! business sheet, but it was not pursued because of pressure upon the Government by the Mr. LLOYD: I am simply pointing out primary producers·. that this is not a matter of tedious repetition. Points have been put forward by the Minis­ At that time several questions we·re asked ter to show that this Bill is very necessary. of the then Minister for Agriculture and Stock. I think it is desira:ble to refer the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Committee to one of the replies, and I Campbell): Order! The hon. member will refer to a question I asked on Thursday, confine his remarks to the outline of the Bill. 10 November, 1960, as reported at page 1344 of "Hansard". By way of a question I drew Mr. LLOYD: I want to submit to you, the Minister's attention to what I called Mr. Campbell, if I may use the phraseology a deliberately misleading opinion in the which might be used by the hon. member "Telegraph" of Tuesday, 8 November, which for South Brisbane, that the Minister did had attempted to place the responsibility for state that the committee of inquiry had made the 7d. increase in meat prices in Brisbane these recommendations and that this legisla­ on the control over the supply of meat in tion was based on those recommendations. the metropolitan area by the Brisbane I consider that any criticism delivered Abattoir. In reply to the latter part of publicly either by members of the United my question about recent increases in the Graziers' Association or members of con­ slaughtering charges levied by the Brisbane sumers' organisations, even members of the Abattoir and their effect on Brisbane meat Queensland Housewives' Association-- prices the Minister said- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! "There has been an increase of six pence The hon. member has drawn a wrong per head in cattle at Brisbane Abattoir inference from the decision given by the recently. In addition, certain credits for Chair. I ask him to continue with his fats previously allowed and amounting to remarks on the outline of the Bill given by some 3s. per head have now been discon­ the Minister. tinued. It must be obvious to all fair­ thinking people that the operations of Mr. LLOYD: Certainly. What I am say­ Cannon Hill have had no influence on ing at the present time is based on the fact recent rises in meat prices. This fact is well that the Government has obviously com­ known to the Telegraph Newspaper Co., pletely accepted the recommendations made and therefore it does the paper no credit by the committee of inquiry which were in deliberately misrepresenting the position submitted to the Government in October last to an uninformed public. Its efforts to year after a very short inquiry lasting eight masquerade as antagonists of monopolism months into the industry by people who are is just as deceptive; in fact the 'Telegraph's' Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2823

proposal could do no other than the whole of the export trade in meat from thrust the Brisbane meat trade into the Queensland to the United Kingdom and other hands of monopolism." countries. The Minister confirmed that when In other words, in the opinion of the then he said in his introduction that there were Minister for Agriculture and Stock, to take no longer only three large meat companies the franchise from the Queensland Meat operating, but an extra 15. The effect of Industry Board and divide it between the the existing legislation has not been to stifle board and private industry, such as the development of the industry in this State. Borthwicks, which would be controlling The intention has been proved by the results, prices, would in fact mean handing the whole which the Minister has confirmed. The of the meat trade in Brisbane to monopolism. original intention must have been good, On page 1178 of the 1960 "Hansard" and the results have been good. appears a question that was asked by me It is now the intention of the Government of the then Minister for Agriculture and to cancel something that was good in 1931, Forestry. I think it is necessary to read something that has had beneficial results it to give an indication of what the Country in that it has enabled a number of local Party thought about this matter in 1960, an.d meat companies to give the cattle producers to show the reasons that Country Party of Queensland a better share of the profits members had for resisting for so long the in the industry in which they are engaged. efforts of the Liberal Party in its attempts Competition was created in the industry. to get Borthwicks a share of the Brisbane There is an unfortunate feature in that, market. In a few moments I intend to although there will not be the monopoly cover a little more of this matter. The that existed in 1931, there will be a reversion question concerned the contradictory Press to the conditions of 1931, which could quite statement in "The Courier-Mail" by Mr. easily mean a reversion to the old type of A. M. Borthwick that Thos. Borthwick & monopolism mentioned by the Minister for Sons Ltd. had invested £1,500,000 in its Agriculture and Stock in 1960. The smaller Moreton meatworks in 1942. That is the abattoir organisations will be squeezed out type of propaganda that these people have of the industry and will be closed down. been advancing and for which the Liberal The abattoirs will have representation on Party has been falling. the authority that is to be created. It will The question continued- have powers that should be possessed only by the Government, not by any organisation " . . . Thomas Borthwick and Sons Ltd. had invested £1· 5 million in its Moreton within the industry. Meat Works in 1942 without the knowledge The replies given to my questions on that that it was not able to supply the Brisbane occasion indicated clearly that the Govern­ market and that this ban was applied in ment intended to scrap the legislation of 1931, during which year was the Brisbane which notice had been given, and in fact it Abattoir created the sole supplier of meat did die. No further mention was made of to the local market in Brisbane and would the notice given by the Minister to intro­ it have been possible for Borthwicks not duce a Bill dealing with the Abattoir Act. to have knowledge of the ban in 1942?" Nothing was done until five years later when a committee of inquiry was appointed by this At that time the Minister for Agriculture Government, no doubt a:s a result of pressure and Stock agreed entirely with the question from the Liberal Party and other interests. asked by me and savagely attacked the The recommendations are really in accord­ proposal that Borthwicks should have some ance with what certain people have wanted share of the Brisbane market. There are for a long time. a number of features of this matter which The Queensland Meat Industry Board has are very important. At page 1178, in operated to the satisfaction of the Queens­ part (1) of his answer, the Minister said- land cattle producers. It has also co-operated "An exclusive franchise was given in at all times with the Commonwealth and. 1931 to the Queensland Meat Industry State Governments in scientific research Board to conduct the Brisbane Abattoir which resulted in improving the treatment at Cannon Hill as the centre for the of meat for the frozen and chilled meat preparation of meat supplies for the markets overseas, particularly in the United consumers in the Metropolitan Area to Kingdom during the war years and the years replace the unsatisfactory slaughterhouse immediately prior to the war. system that pertained at that time. It There was not a great deal of movement also gave an opportunity for the Govern­ by any of the meat export companies from ment to meet the demands of the meat 1946 to 1950, and no definite pressure was industry generally and for the establishment applied. The first movement occurred in of Queensland firms to enable them to 1952 when, instead of the United Kingdom enter the export trade in competition with Government purchasing the whole of the the large overseas meat firms." intake of meat production under the United Kingdom meat agreement, which expires in In other words, one of the intentions of 1967, it allowed private treaty to take over; the original legislation in 1931 was to give in other words, private arrangements could the right to local firms to enter into competi­ be made for the purchase of meat in the tion with the large monopolies controlling United Kingdom. 2824 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

In 1954 there was a further relaxation as members of the committee of inquiry. which allowed the movement of a good deal Thus, one man appointed to the autho_rity of lower-grade meat to the United States of would be capable of doing an excellent JOb. America, a market which was not open to Turning to the other members, we find that the meat industry until that time. Immedi­ the proprietary abattoirs will have one repre­ ately the lower grades of meat could be sentative, the district abattoirs will have exported to the United States, the meat another, and the service abattoirs will have export companies decided to move into this another. The authority will have three lucrative market because of the better price representatives of abattoirs of different types obtainable. in Queensland. There will also be one lonely representative of the producers. He will be The competition from the agents on the there to look after the interests of the local market forced up the local price. growers. There is no representation of con­ Immediately that occurred the home-con­ sumption market became more lucrative, sumers or industrial unions. and significant pressure was applied by Berth­ Mr. Nicklin: The district boards could be wicks and other meat companies, which had represented by producers. operated on only an export basis until then, to be allowed to come into the home market. Mr. LLOYD: The Premier is making con­ The Government is now going to move aside jecture similar to that made by the committee and allow that to happen. of inquiry. The representative of the district abattoir boards will be representing one Let us look at the method to be used. section of the industry. There will be three In the committee's report, which I have such representatives out of six members. They called a report of conjecture, there is no have a vital concern in the matter. The indication of what the demand for meat will powers of the authority will be directed to be in five or 10 years' time. The report deciding how many of the existing service contains figures taken from different sources abattoirs will be closed, what slaughter­ -apparently a number of meat companies, houses will be closed, what new districts the department itself, and others. It is will be created, what new abattoirs will be absolutely impossible to anticipate what meat built in certain areas of the State, and so on. the local population will require in five years' If the man representing the district abattoir time. Who can tell what the United States boards is from Rockhampton, and in his of America will require from Australia? We opinion an abattoir being built at Biloela know that the United States Government will be uneconomic, he will use his influence agreed to accept 242,000 tons of meat from to have it closed. Australia in 1964, and 260,000 tons in 1966. Already there has been some movement in (Time expired.) this regard. In 1966 there could be a com­ pletely new agreement, perhaps resulting from Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) (10.9 p.m.): pressure exerted by producers in the United Having listened to the hon. member for States. The United States Government may Kurilpa espousing the cause of free enter­ declare further quotas on imports of meat. prise and competition in the meat industry, Statements of what the requirements will be and knowing that he is committed to sup­ in 1970 are based entirely on conjecture of porting a party that fosters monopolies, l what might happen, and possibly will not. think that one would need to have a very Markets may become available in Europe, facile or flexible mind to be a member of and increased markets in the United King­ one of the Government parties because one dom may continue. On the other hand, they would at all times have to be prepared to may not. Markets in Southern Asia could have "two bob each way" on matters coming expand considerably, requiring increased meat up for consideration. I do not want to deaX production in this country. All of these at any length with what the hon. member things are matters for conjecture. said, because I wish to address my remarks to the action of the Government in seeking The intention of the Government at present permission to introduce the Bill. is to set up this authority. Let us look at its composition. It is to have a chairman I am surprised that the Government pro­ appointed by the Government, and a repre­ poses to introduce this Bili, because former sentative from the Department of Primary Governments and former Ministers have Industries. In other words, the Government resisted pressure that was brought to bear could apooint anybody. For instance, Mr. on them to introduce legislation of this type. Peter Bell could be appointed to stop his Basically, it makes possible the introduction criticism of the Government on these matters. of meat from sources other than the public The Government may decide to keep him abattoir, and Borthwicks, in my opinion, quiet by moving him upstairs, as it were, will benefit greatly from its implementation. and making him chairman of the authority. For years they have been putting pressure on members of the Government and members I have no doubt that administrative officers of the Opposition-we have all received of the Department of Primary Industries are letters from them urging that meat from very knowledgeable men and would have a independent sources be allowed into the greater knowledge of this industry and its metropolitan area-and it seems to me that needs and future requirements than would the Government has now yielded to that :the men a,ppo!nted by the Government pressure. Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2825

Many Government members seem to have this section of commerce to provide whatever lost sight of the principles that we are led products are necessary and to ensure that to believe are contained in the Bill. We the home market is satisfied first of all and have not heard from them any criticism of that only what is left is exported. But I the abattoir at Cannon Hill. They have not fear that in any time of shortage the con­ attempted to justify the Government's action sumer in this country will suffer and that the or to convince the Opposition that the intro­ best products and the best cuts of beef and duction of the Bill is desirable. mutton will go overseas; they will not be available to consumers here. From what I have heard from the Minister, the proposed Bill will not confer any benefit There is one other matter to which I on consumers of meat in the metropolitan should like to refer. It has been mentioned area. It will not mean cheaper meat· it by several other speakers but I have a will not mean better meat. In fact, I think particular interest in it. It is the failure that the Government has shown a complete of the Government to make provision in disregard for the consumer. When a Bill this Bill for the control or supervision of that affects the ordinary citizen is brought the delivery of carcasses to butcher shops. before this Assembly, some indication should At least, I presume it is not in the Bill. As be given that not only the interests of those we have no Bill before us at this stage, who are greatly interested in the industry Mr. Hodges, neither you nor I know what are protected, but also those of the little is in it. people who will be greatly affected by the Some two years ago I made very extensive production, distribution and sale of com­ inquiries into this aspect of the meat industry. modities. We should be given an indication On that occasion, I took it upon myself that the Government is aware of the needs to follow the various delivery wagons. I and rights of those people. picked them up at Kangaroo Point, on the Various measures have been introduced other side of Story Bridge, and followed relating to the meat industry. One piece of them to their points of delivery. I made a legislation provided for the use of meat price particular note of the periods of time for dockets; another provided for the grading of which the doors of these wagons remained meat and was designed to ensure that con­ open. On some occasions they were open sumers got the best meat that was available for a period of 40 minutes and the meat and knew what they would pay for it when in them was exposed to dust. At the time they went into a butcher shop. All those I provided the Minister of the day, the late things have gone by the board; one never Otto Madsen, not only with written evidence sees them in a butcher shop today. In my of these circumstances but also with photo­ opinion, that is typical of the disregard in graphic evidence. I was able to secure very which consumers are held by the good photographs, in the city as well as the Government. suburbs, of the extent to which meat was exposed to dust, flies, and other insects while Those who are in the upper echelon of the doors were open. the meat industry are very interested because they are in the industry for what they can In a period of the year such as we are get out of it, and one can be sure that when now experiencing when there has been no one particular section of an industry supports rain in the city for some time, the dust the introduction of a measure such as this it menace is extensive and I have noticed within will mean a considerable return to it. This the last fortnight the extent to which this proposed legislation will mean a great deal meat is subjected to dust stirred up by to Borthwicks. You can rest assured, Mr. passing trucks. In the last fortnight I have Hodges, that when the Bill becomes law noticed one basket of "smalls", I think they they will enter the retail meat trade in are called, which was accidentally knocked Brisbane, and very soon competition will not over and the contents spilled onto the road, exist because they will have control of all picked up by the delivery man, put back the retail meat shops in the metropolitan area. into the basket and taken into the butcher I think that is part of their general plan in shop. That is a very unsatisfactory state coming into this market. They will control of affairs and I do not know that there is not only the wholesale side but also the any provision in the Bill to cover such retail side of the meat industry, and the circumstances. meat in the sandwich, of course, will be the Mr. Hiley: The Health Act covers that. ordinary consumer who will pay just what this monopoly-which is what it will be Mr. MELLOY: That is another argument. in the retail trade-decides will be the price On the occasion on which I made this survey, of its meat. The public will suffer in times I submitted my findings to the Minister for of shortage when there is conflict as to Health and was informed by him that it did whether the best of the meat will be provided not come under his control, that it came for the consumers in this State or whether under, I think at that time, the Minister it will be exported. Basically, the meat for Agriculture and Stock, Mr. Madsen. industry is for the benefit of the people of The Government should make up its mind as this country. It is essential that there be to who is responsible. My experience shows products for the use of the ordinary people. that it is the responsibility of the Depart­ We cannot all be pastoralists, or butchers, ment of Primary Industries. When I sub­ or meat wholesalers, and we have to rely on mitted various suggestions, such as the use 2826 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill of swinging screen doors on meat-wagons, supply the local market is to cease, men will the Minister for Primary Industries gave an be thrown out of employment. At Cloncurry assurance that he would give them con­ especially, the employment position is very sideration. As far as I am concerned it is bad, it is necessary to retain as many not a matter that comes under the control industries as possible to ensure that the of the Department of Health, but I am people in the area are kept in employ­ open to correction. I think some provision ment. The supplying of meat from the must be made to provide greater protection Townsville abattoir would definitely sound for meat, either by swinging screen doors or the death knell to any hopes that the people some other means of excluding flies, insects, of Mt. Isa and Cloncurry have held about and dust, or some form of protective obtaining abattoirs in the area. covering. Mr. Row: You need not worry about it. We do not know what is in the Bill, so I will reserve any further remarks until the Mr. INCH: Public-spirited bodies in Mt. second-reading stage. Isa and Cloncurry are working very hard to introduce new industries into their respective Mr. INCH (Burke) (10.21 p.m.): My towns to create employment and prosperity remarks will be brief. I enter the debate for the residents. The Government could to protest strongly against the purported assist them in their efforts by not acceding move to have Mt. Isa and possibly Cion­ to the requests of monopoly organisations, curry included in the Townsville Abattoirs and by doing everything possible to establish Board franchise. I understand that Ayr, an abattoir at Cloncurry or Mt. Isa. Home Hill, Ingham and Charters Towers are also to be included in that franchise. I sincerely hope that in his reply the However, that is a matter for representatives Minister will give me an assurance that any of those areas to deal with. I voice this move such as I have outlined by the abattoir protest despite the belief held by the com­ board at Townsville will not be coun­ mittee of inquiry that existing abattoir tenanced, and that Mt. Isa and Cloncurry facilities should be utifised to provide these will be supplied by their own slaughter­ areas with hygienically killed meat, and houses. because of the opinion expressed by members Mr. MURRAY (Clayfield) (10.27 p.m.): I of the committee and officers of the depart­ have listened carefully to most of the debate, ment that slaughtering facilities at Mt. Ita and I was amazed at the fact that all hon. are very good. To substantiate this, I pro­ members opposite seemed to get away com­ pose to quote part IV of the report, para­ pletely from the Minister's speech. Surely it graph 62. It states- was made perfectly clear that the principal "Mt. Isa also merits a separate reference purpose of this Bill is to consolidate legisla­ because it is fast growing, and in terms of tion relating to meat. Its principal purpose population could, if it continues to grow, is to consolidate a number of Acts, namely, warrant a domestic abattoir within the next the Slaughtering Acts, 1951 to 1958, the ten years. This town is serviced by two Abattoir Acts, 1930 to 1958, and the slaugh­ slaughterhouses, stated by officers of the tering provisions of the Poultry Industry Department of Primary Industries located Acts, 1946 to 1959. in Mt. Isa to be of good standard, which enables an effective inspection of all stock Mr. :Bennett: We are aware of that. killed for local consumption and provides Mr. MURRAY: Hon. members opposite the town with inspected meat." seem to have lost sight of the fact that that Another reason for my protest is the high is the principal purpose of the Bill. There price of meat to consumers at Mt. Isa, are some amendments, and one or two new which would be the result of the ridiculous factors have been introduced. suggestion that beef cattle should be trans­ The hon. member for South Brisbane sug­ ported a distance of 605 miles to gested that this was anti-Queensland legisla­ Townsville for slaughtering and processing tion. He deplored the bringing in of outside and subsequent return to Mt. Isa. Because advice on the committee of inquiry. of the freight charges the cost to the people in the Far West would be much greater. The Mr. :BENNETT: I rise to a point of order. cost of living out there is already far too That is not a true representation of what I high. This additional cost would add to the said. I did not deplore the bringing in of burden they are already carrying. Besides outside advice. I deplored the fact that the all this, people could be left without meat committee was being controlled from outside. supplies because of the hazards which could I suggested it should get outside advice by be created by industrial unrest, and by floods way of evidence. which periodically occur in that area and disrupt road and rail transport. Those are Mr. MURRAY: I took down rather care­ some of the hazards which may be fully what the hon. member for South Bris­ encountered if we are to be serviced by the bane said. From his remarks I thought that abattoir in Townsville. it was quite satisfactory to him for outsiders to come in for some purposes which he There is another reason for my protesting advocated very strongly, and perhaps not for against this legislation. If it is intended that others, so I made a note of it. He said this the slaughtering of cattle in these areas to was anti-Queensland legislation. With respect Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2827 to my friend from South Brisbane, those are they want to be able to send their cattle very strong words. No-one can truly suggest anywhere when it suits them. So we should that this is anti-Queensland legislation. I not be misled or put off the track by this think he said he did not want Queen Street, picking out of the blue a statement alleged Liberal graziers commenting on this legis­ to have been made by Mr. Wilson, who lation because he thought it would snarl up leads and represents the United Graziers' the works completely. Association in that area very well. Therefore, with some temerity I feel that Mr. Bennett: Why wouldn't Mr. Campbell I can pass a few observations on the Bill, let me read his article in this Chamber? because after all, while it may be assumed that some of us in the metropolitan area Mr. MURRAY: I do not think the hon. are not highly qualified, perhaps, to comment member for South Brisbane would be keen on this Bill, one can in all fairness say that to pursue that point very far either. many hon. members opposite would not know which end of the beast eats. To say Cannon Hill was set up originally for very that it is anti-Queensland legislation is to good reasons in the days of the major be most unfair to the Minister and to the companies, namely, Vesteys, Borthwicks, and Government. Swifts. They were very good reasons and it was a very good facility. But times change. The United Graziers' Association point I have no argument, and I am sure that this of view was quoted. Again we find that it Committee has no argument against the sug­ is convenient to accept a section of that gestion that it is the proper role of the Association's views in this matter, while at Government to set up a facility where it is other times there is violent opposition to required. Of course, there is a difference anything that smells of its views. The hairs between this side of the Chamber and the on the backs of the necks of Opposition other side. We on this side of the Chamber members rise the moment anyone mentions believe that it is the role of Government to the United Graziers' Association to them, set up facilities till private enterprise can yet on this occasion, for the sake of con­ take over adequately. Hon. members on the venience they pounce on a statement alleged other side worship at the feet of Government to have been made by Mr. Wilson of monopoly. That is their cry; that is all that Calliope, in Central Queensland. they want. We abhor monopolies of any kind. The committee investigating this matter We have no time at all for monopolies in the said- true sense of the word. Hon. members "In the course of evidence on the opposite say quite frankly that they want question of the adequacy of facilities in monopolies, and they shall be Government Central Queensland it appeared that the monopolies. We are dedicated to preventing Central Coastal Graziers' Association were that from happening. We therefore think asking that the central coastal area be a it is a proper role of government to set up closed region, i.e. that all cattle produced the facilities covered by the provisions of in that region should be slaughtered there. the Bill where such facilities are required, The suggestion arose by way of evidence till we feel that private enterprise can take which inclined to the view that there should over adequately and supply the competition be a balancing of killing facilities against that was mentioned by many speakers on this stock turn-off for the region. After some side as being so desirable in the interests questioning by the Committee the witnesses of the consumers. for the graziers agreed that they did not Mr. Honston: What are they going to desire this balance of killing facilities against turn-off. They wished to remain compete in-the killing charge? free to market their cattle wherever they Mr. MURRAY: That is quite irrelevant. chose. The Committee is firmly of the view that while there should be adequate This situation applies in much of the State. competition provided in all regions it would I have great sympathy for those in areas be undesirable to attempt to balance killing in which proper works cannot be set up. facilities with turn-off region by region." In many small towns throughout the country small bush works, one might call them, These views were put forward strongly by unhygienic establishments compared with the the Central Queensland group. We know that principal works, are to be found. Mr. Wilson has been strong in his views on this subject over the years. Mr. Houston: Name one. Mr. Bennett: Do you agree with him? Mr. MURRAY: They are to be found in small towns all along the North Coast. I Mr. MURRAY: I admire him for his views, could name any number of them. I suggest which he puts forward forcibly; I respect that the hon. member travel and see things anybody for that. As it happens, his views for himself. In small towns everywhere appear to be a little offside with general small killing facilities can be found. They thought. are policed by dedicated stock inspectors of Of course, they want it both ways. Graziers the Department of Primary Industries who everywhere want it both ways; most people would find it impossible to supply the super­ do. They want all the protection they can vision required to ensure proper hygienic get in a local area, and at the same time control over the production of meat. 2828 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

Mr. Houston: In other words, it is good This is indicative of the amount of time enough for country people to eat unhygienic that is spent in making speeches at the meat but not good enough for city people. introductory stage when no-one has a cppy of the Bill in his hands. Mr. MURRAY: That is a spurious argu­ ment. Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) (10.42 p.m.): Mr. Houston: That is your argument. This is a very important piece of legislation, and I believe that everyone who has the Mr. MURRAY: Many of these small killing interests of the consumers at heart-I am works will continue to operate because it referring to consumers over the length and would be impossible to set up in those areas breadth of Queensland-should have some­ the type of works that many of the smaller thing to say on it. It affects people in many towns and provincial cities have. During walks of life. It affects each of us and our the last few years there has been a decided families; it affects the primary producers, the move to improve standards of hygiene and so-called backbone of the country, who I control in the killing and handling of meat. believe do a wonderful job; it affects the This has been a very progressive move by workers at the meatworks, the abattoir, and the Government, and-let us face it-was the cannery. For that reason, I believe that envisaged by the previous administration. it is one of the most important pieces of We have carried on this work and done it legislation, if not the most important, that well. has been brought down in what so far has A committee was set up to investigate a been a fairly weak legislative programme. number of things as a guide to future Although the gag has been applied on a thinking and planning in the meat industry. number of occasions, it is typical of the This was a very appropriate time for such Government's legislative efforts. an inquiry. The committee has found that As I said, the proposed legislation is although there are adequate killing facilities important to the housewife. The hon. mem­ in existence at the moment, basing :its ber for Kurilpa-I sometimes think that he findings on single-shift operation and the is only a poor deluded little boy-said that the working of no overtime, the pasture revolu­ provisions of the Bill will result in competition tion, as one might almost call it, so well and ably encouraged and planned by the and better quality and che-aper beef for Government, will result, I am sure, in a housewives and consumers. In my opinion, great increase in the number of stock avail­ it is open to doubt whether it will produce able in the years ahead. Cattle numbers better-quality meat Certainly the meat that now approximately 7,500,000, have not we get today could not be called first class, in~ but I am sure that the hon. member for creased in 70 years. This is a legacy inherited Kurilpa was talking with his tongue in his from the previous administration. In the main, cheek-it is probably a sheep's tongue-when they were not alive to the need for this he spoke about these things. He would have great drive to effect pasture improvement in been better occupied in kissing ladies' hands. this country. But t~is is taking place now, Sometimes I think he wants to eat them; and we can well envisage that stock numbers he places so much importance upon meat. will increase tremendously. I believe that the committee has performed a very useful Mr. Hughes: You are only jealous. task in guiding the Government for the future, and as a result of its recommenda­ Mr. BROMLEY: I certainly am not tions we wiii provide killing facilities until jealous of the hon. member for Kurilpa. private enterprise can provide them and it is He has his fads and fancies, and I suppose no longer necessary for us to do so. we must allow him that right, as we allow it The hon. member for Nudgee said that to other people. members on this side of the Chamber had not offered any criticism of the Cannon Hill The line adopted by the hon. member abattoir or of various otheT things. I do for Kurilpa is the type of argument that not think hon. members should indulge in monopolies would advance when trying to very much criticism of the Cannon Hill ram down our throats, not meat, but that abattoir. It has lost large sums of money more private enterprise and more competition but that is history and is known to all of will stimulate industry-in this case, of us. The question has been raised as to course, the meat industry. I have never whether the abattoir at Cannon Hill should heard such utter drivel. Everybody knows be rebuilt. My own firm belief is that it that whilst the so-called combines pretend is not necessary to rebuild it, but expert to introduce competition there is actually opinion is that it should be rebuilt. no such thing because a price ring operates. I have no doubt that it will operate in I believe that the limitation of the kill this case. As I said by interjection, perhaps is a wise move, and that the removing of we will have competition under this Bill the franchise in the way proposed is a better move stili. - for a short time until the private operators see what they are going to do. I believe The Opposition has given us a great the hon. member for Kurilpa is pushing amount of "waffle" in this debate. Hon. that line, although he does not mean it, members opposite have got away from the because it is Tory policy and he has to Bill and its purposes almost completely. espouse it in this Committee.

\.____ --- Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH) Meat Industry Bill 2829

I believe that the Bill will affect the off fillets." "Get 1 tlb. of value for econom~ of Queensland in many ways, just every 1 lb. That is what we will see when as the disastrous drought we are experiencing these firms get control. 'Forty-three beans is affecting primary industry, including the in every pot roast," and all the time the meat industry and the dairy industry. It consumers are getting "touched" left, ~ill affec! employees in all types of primary right and centre. I do not want the mdustry JUSt as the drought has done. After Minister to beguile himself into thinking listening to the Minister's introduction of that the farmers and producers will the Bill I feel very sympathetically disposed benefit. I honestly do not think they will. towards members of the Australasian Meat I am certain that the hon. member for War­ Industry Employees' Union, who fought such wick will agree with me. Although he spoke a gallant fight for better conditions and who in favour of the Bill, the hon. member for have had such a tough time. Because of Condamine does not really think he is going the limitation of killing at the Cannon Hill to benefit. He favours the fat-lamb industry abattoir I believe they will suffer even more. but he will not get more money under this They have suffered already from the intro­ Bill. I venture to say that the income of duction of the "Canpak" system and I the hon. member for Condamine, and of all believe that the reduced kill will cause those associated with the beef industry and them much more suffering and will reflect fat-Iamb industry, will decline under this itself in their take-home pay. As I said legislation. I do not like it at all. We have before, I think Queensland faces a disastrous not seen the Bill and therefore I cannot drop in beef production, and I also speak too much against it at this stage. But suggest that this will reflect itself in having listened to what the Minister said the export sale, which amounted to and having read the report, which goes into £60,000,000 in 1963-64. I think the the whole ramifications of the industry, I Minister holds the same view. Whether he do not like the setup at all. introduced the Bill as a result of such Unfortunately, farmers have recently been thinking or because of the report of the adversely affected by overseas prices and the committee of inquiry I do not know, but prices they have received for their primary the Bill appears to be based completely produce, particularly cattle. Figures prove on that report. By introducina the Bill that a cost rise in excess of 4 per cent. is the Minister will aggravate the ~nfortunate particularly harmful to the growers. I do drop in beef production that I forecast. He not think anybody can deny that. There is already doing so by introducing legislation will be a greater percentage rise than that to reduce the kill at the Government-owned to the consumers when this Bill becomes law abat.toir. f.Ie. is therefore, in my opinion, and the combines take control of the meat puttmg a hmit on beef production. industry. Mr. Cory: What are you going to do I know the Minister will say later on about the bruising? that the Bill will not affect the number of the kill because it will bring about so-called Mr. BROMLEY: I agree that something competition that will emanate from the should be done, but there are other ways fact that more firms are operating. of doing it. I concede that the growers have This is just a myth. I believe it will been losing as a result of bruising. Mark eventually cut down the kill to just my words, once the combines get control they will say, "You will accept this price or the extent ~hat will suit these firms, which forced the Liberal Party bloc to push this legis­ else." We have seen it in America and other overseas countries where they have said, lation through Parliament and allow certain "You will take it or leave it." The same firms to control the meat industry throughout remarks apply to oil. The Government will Queensland. It is no use the hon. member not force the oil combines to develop the for Clayfield saying that we will have oil industry to any great extent so that the competition. In fact, there will be no consumers will benefit in relation to the competition. We all know that in all charges. industries certain firms get together and fix prices to suit themselves, not the paying Mr. Chinchen interjected. public. We have seen it in other industries where certain firms have decided to get Mr. BROMLEY: Being a democratic tof!ether and fix a definite price for an person, unlike the hon. member for article. People have had to take it or leave Mt. Gravatt, I would not deny the meat it. workers the right to strike if they felt that they could better their own and their fellow I do not want to get away from the Bill workmates' conditions. The moment any but I think everybody here can imagine the Government takes the right to strike from "bull"-I mean that literally-that we will the workers is the moment that democratic see when these firms take over, as they event­ government falls by the wayside. ually will. Under the proposed new scheme The Minister is likable enough in his own we will see all the "bull" in the world on way, but in my opinion he has been "conned" television. "King-size loin chops-save 10d." into taking this action. I have reliable in­ "Economy rib roast special-1s. off. this formation that he has been fighting against week only." Just imagine the sort of thing the introduction of the Bill. However, he we will see. "Sullivan's sausage shop-5d. has been "conned" into it by the Liberal 2830 Meat Industry Bill [ASSEMBLY] Meat Industry Bill

cell in the coalition party which has forced is hard to get continued compensation. The the Government to do what the Country Government should strive to better the con­ Party would not do. I say that with all due ditions of both the producers and the respect to the Liberal Party and the Govern­ workers. ment parties. In answer to the interjector and in relation Whilst the Bill may eventually affect beef to organising, at the moment I am organising producers throughout Australia, I am re­ a case for better conditions throughout the ferring only to Queensland people. The industry. All of us in Queensland are vitally cavalier attitude of the Government towards concerned in this matter. I am also organising the Queensland people, particularly those who some support for the workers in the me~t are responsible for production-the people on industry. If the Government wants to get m the land who are striving to assist the and put its shoulder to the wheel it sho~ld economy of the country-is very poor, and support the union organisers, who are fiJ?htmg will have an important bearing on the future so magnificently for the men employed m the state of the balance of payments. I am re­ meat industry. If the Government mtroduces ferring to exports, which must be referred to a more stable price in the industry, a series in the Bill as the Minister referred to killing of price controls for the benefit and protec­ not only for home consumption but for tion of the consumer, and price guarantees export as well. This, in turn, will affect the for the benefit of the producer, there can be economy of the nation as a whole. no argument. If I remember correctly, this was pointed out by the hon. member for Fassifern who, After all, everybody is out to get a quid. in my opinion and in the opinion of every­ Anybody with any sense realises that if the one else in the Chamber has a great know­ producer of any commodity, whether it ~e ledge of the subject. He knows it thoroughly. primary or secondary, is able to get a qmd, He would not have introduced this Bill, and in the long run everybody, even the Govern­ possibly that is one of the reasons why the ment, will get a share. The need for Government decided to get him out of the increased exportation of rural products is as Cabinet. One of the troubles with this great as ever, and the obstacles to such Government is that it does what it can with expansion are also greater than ever. We people and it cans the ones it cannot deal should have some action. More money with. should be given to the producer to assist him in every way. He has a pretty tough Mr. Cory: Do you think the Government life. I have been on the land and realise is spending the money for research wisely? the long hours he works and the back­ breaking work he does. He does a Mr. BROMLEY: It is spending the money tremendous job. well, but not too wisely. We cannot expect the country to run along on faith alone. We I do not think that this Bill will do any­ must have action by the Government. The thing to promote better economic growth or Opposition has plenty of action and advice control in the meat industry. It should not to give the Government. It is a matter of be allowed to stifle the increased production conjecture whether money is being spent of beef. The Minister should take note of wisely. what Opposition members have said and It is clear to me and to the Country Party accept our advice. While competition . as . it producers in the State-referring particularly exists in Australia today, particularly m Its to those who have spent a lifetime in the initial stages, is a great and a wonderful thing, industry-that the economic policies followed eventually it dies out because of the greed for by Australia vitally affect the rural producers. money that is exhibited by monopolies. I do not see that any argument can be forth­ coming from the Government benches to Hon. J. A. ROW (Hinchinbrook-Ministe·r refute that statement. for Primary Industries) (11.5 p.m.), in reply: I do not propose tonight to reply A Government Member interjected. in full to the many speeches made by hon. members on both sides of the Committee. Mr. BROMLEY: For the benefit of the If I analysed carefully many of the con­ hon. member who is hard of hearing, I shall tributions, I would be here for at least an repeat what I said. It is clear that the hour. I therefore propose to give more economic policies adopted by Australia consideration to them later and deal more vitally affect the rural producer, as well as broadly in my second-reading speech with the decisions of the Tariff Board and the many matters raised tonight. Arbitration Court. The Tariff Board must consider costs and many other matters. The With few exceptions, most speeches have same applies to the Arbitration Court. It revolved round the proposal to allow meat must consider the cost of production. from outside the metropolitan area to be introduced under licence to Brisbane. One I pay tribute to the men connected with would think from the many speeches of the meat industry. They suffer many priva­ Opposition members, particularly the Leader tions and hard times, and are subject to the of the Opposition, that the Government ravages of disease in their stock. Particularly intends to destroy the Cannon Hill works am I sympathetic to the workers at the and throw the consumers in the Brisbane area Abattoirs who contract Q-fever, for which it completely into the hands of private meat Meat Industry Bill [23 MARCH] Meat Industry Bill 2831

companies. I want to contradict that state­ Mr. ROW: I will give that assurance. ment deliberately and completely. I assure the Committee that the Government is Mr. Bromley: To the unions? acutely conscious of its responsibilities not only to the consumers in Brisbane but also Mr. ROW: I will give that assurance, to those in other cities and towns of Queens­ because it is the Government's responsibility. land, particularly in ensuring continuity of the supply of wholesome, hygienic, and I was very surprised to hear the comments inspected meat. of some hon. members in relation to the composition of the committee of inquiry into I. am very pleased to be able to report the meat industry and to hear criticism of tomght that the Brisbane Abattoir is showing the fact that the Government, in its wisdom, very great improvements in its killings and appointed to that committee three men from financial position. There has been an increase outside Queensland. I assure hon. members of 11,609 in the number of cattle killed for that Cabinet gave very careful consideration the 35 weeks' operations ended 27 February, to these appointments, and it decided that 1965, as compared with the corresponding the appointment of men with great knowledge period of the preceding year. The compar­ of the meat industry outside Queensland able figures for sheep and calves are increases would be more effective than the appointment of 194,708 and 13,166 respectively. There of men within the State who might be has been a decrease of 9,844 in the number charged with possessing some degree of of pigs slaughtered. parochialism and prejudice. Therefore, Mr. McKay, the Director of the Bureau To deal briefly with the cash position, the of Agricultural Economics, was appointed as bank overdraft on 29 June, 1964, was chairman, and he did a very fine job in £105,738, and the credit balance at that position. He has an extensive knowledge 23 March, 1965, is £29,741. Allowing for of economics and of the meat industry. an approximate pay-out of £17,500 on The other two members of the committee account of payroll for the week ended were Mr. Stanley Hill, who is manager of the Metropolitan Meat Industry Board in 20 March, 1965, the actual credit balance New South Wales, and who has had very will be slightly in excess of £12,000. That wide experience in the meat industry, :;md is a credit to the board and all concerned Mr. Albert Towns, who is manager of the with it. The board's financial position from Goulburn Municipal Abattoir and also 29 June, 1964, to 23 March, 1965, improved adviser on meat matters to the New South by approximately £118,000, whilst consider­ Wales Government. In my opinion, we able capital expenditure was being incurred. could not have got three men better quali­ In my opinion, the Brisbane Abattoir will fied to investigate the meat industry in show a profit this year. Queensland without fear or prejudice. I again assure hon. members that the Some comment was made, too, on the Government realises its responsibilities in appointment of the fourth member-Mr. regard to the Brisbane Abattoir. It is a Lloyd Harris, of my own department. The public abattoir for the use of operators who hon. member for South Brisbane said that have no other killing facilities available to he was put on as an addition, or described them. Last year approximately 118 his appointment in some other derogatory way. Mr. Harris was appointed because operators, some only small, used the works Mr. Hill met with an unfortunate accident at C~nnon Hill. My Government is very and was unable to attend ·some of the inspec­ consciOus of the fact that this establishment tions of the various areas in Queensland, must be retained. It must be rebuilt, if and he did a splendid job. In those circum­ necessary, and I give to the Committee an stances, I have nothing but praise for the assurance that the Government will always members of the committee, who submitted recognise its responsibilities to the Brisbane a very truthful and accurate report. Abattoir and all associated with it. A great deal has been said about the report, and one would think that the Bill The introduction of meat to the Brisbane was based only on the recommendations con­ area by private outside firms will be con­ tained in it. trolled, as it will be in the case of other district abattoirs killing other than for local Mr. Bromley: It sounded like it from consumption. However, having regard to the your introductory speech. financial responsibility of the Government it will be the duty of the Queensland Meat Mr. ROW: No, it only sounded like it Industry Authority to see that regulated sup­ from the speeches made by hon. members opposite during the debate. If the hon. plies of meat that will not affect the financial member for Norman had listened carefully standing of the district abattoirs come into to my introductory speech, which I read very these areas. That is a very important slowly and distinctly, he would have under­ responsibility, because, after all, it is Govern­ stood that it is not. It is based largely on ment money. experience of operations under the Slaughter­ ing Acts and the Abattoirs Acts, and the Mr. Bromley: Will you give that assur­ hon. member will understand its effects more ance to the unions? readily when he gets a copy of it. 2832 Soil Conservation Bill [ASSEMBLY] Soil Conservation Bill

I do not propose to deal at length tonight soil conservation trusts. I feel that this co­ with the comments of hon. members. I will ordination is most necessary because neither leave them till the second-reading stage. I authority alone can effectively discharge . its again commend the Bill to the Committee. responsibilities without the help of the other. Motion (Mr. Row) agreed to. A river improvement trust cannot provide stable stream flow conditions while silt and Resolution reported. excess run-off is reaching the stream from the contributing catchment area. Nor can a soil FIRST READING conservation trust ensure stable conditions of discharge from its works into streams Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Row unless the river authority co-operates. read a first time. ' In view of these points, I see merit in the suggestion of the hon. member for SOIL CONSERVATION BILL Carnarvon concerning the eventual constitu­ tion of all-embracing river authorities. How­ SECOND READING ever, the setting up of this type of body is a Hon. J. A. ROW (Hinchinbrook-Minister matter for future consideration. The most for Primary Industries) (11.17 p.m.): I urgent need now is to stimulate soil conser­ move- vation work on the eroding agricultural and pastoral lands of the State, and I should like "That the Bill be now read a second to direct the attention of all hon. members time." to this aspect of the matter. When I introduced this Bill I was not unaware The Leader of the Opposition has requested of its importance and recognised that in the information concerning the approximate cost broad issues it could well command the of implementing soil conservation pro­ support of members of this House. grammes on the State's eroded lands. The Nevertheless, it has been most gratifying House will appreciate that there is an to find that all speakers were prepared to element of speculation in this, but we place put aside party issues in order to develop the the cost to land-owners at about £4,500,000 best possible legislation for the purpose of to deal with existing erosion on agricultural protecting a most important natural resource. lands, and a much lesser amount for handling erosion in grazing areas. To this I concur with both the Leader of the must be added the annual cost of approxi­ Opposition and the hon. member for Barcoo mately £300,000 to landholders for providing that the earlier legislation presented by the control measures on up to 150,000 acres of late Mr. Collins was in fact the stepping additional new cultivation lands each year stone to the Bill that is now before the House. which are likely to erode. That is about 75 per cent. of the new land being brought into It can be accepted that many of the cultivation each year. provisions of the present Bill would have been premature in 1951, because the When reflecting on these figures it will be general level of interest in rural areas was realised that material benefits accrue to the not sufficiently high nor was there sufficient land-owner by way of improved productivity experience to determine clearly the best and easier working of treated land. It is operational basis for community soil con­ rare for the investment in soil conservation servation programmes. However, I believe works to exceed 10 per cent. of the value that the time has arrived when every farmer of the land protected; it is more commonly or group of farmers anywhere in the State of the order of 5 per cent. should have the statutory facilities to pursue actively soil conservation programmes. The earth-moving operations required for soil conservation purposes are substantial. This Bill is intended to deal with those Our estimates indicate that in the year just issues which come within my jurisdiction, completed Queensland farmers moved and consequently I can advise the Leader of 3,000,000 cubic yards of soil in forming the Opposition that provision has not been their soil conservation structures on 63,000 made for the control of marine erosion acres. because this falls within the province of my colleague the Treasurer. Some extra costs will be incurred by local authorities in providing cross drainage struc­ The control of riverine erosion is the tures on roads to meet the needs of co­ province of the Minister for Local Govern­ ordinated soil conservation schemes. These ment and Conservation and, in reply to the costs are offset in part by reduced road hon. members for Townsville South and maintenance requirements, and the rating Bundaberg, I can advise that the River potential of the lands would be enhanced. Improvement Trust Acts make adequate provision for dealing with this important In order to assist in this matter the issue. Government provides a 50 per cent. subsidy towards the cost of special road cross drain­ However, it will be clear that the Bill age structures required for soil conservation provides the machinery for the integration of purposes in those instances where a scheme the activities of river improvement trusts and as a whole does not attract subsidy. Soil Conservation Bill [23 MARCH] Soil Conserration Bill 2833

Apart from subsidies likely to be involved in this Bill. The first and preferable approach in respect of general benefit works in is to convince the public and all landholders approved schemes, the Government is com­ of the dangers of soil erosion and that mitted to appreciable expenditure for the practical solutions to the problem are provision of technical services which, apart available. This is the cornerstone of the from research, involve detailed mapping, trust proposals set out in the Bill. planning, surveying and general extension activities. Local leadership and community partici­ The expenditure currently runs at about pation in soil conservation programmes bring £70,000 a year, and the estimated cost of the soil conservation leaders and co-operators these services required to deal with existing into close contact with non-participating erosion on agricultural lands alone will total farmers and this multiplies the chances of about £2,000,000, or one-third of the overall increasing the awareness and understanding cost of soil conservation programmes over of the problem and its solutions. 30 years. To this must be added a recurring annual cost of up to £100,000 to service Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is too much immediately the needs of erosion-liable new long-range conversation on my right. cultivation lands. From time to time the Main Roads and Mr. ROW: At present this task falls mainly Railway Departments are asked to provide on the shoulders of departmental soil special cross-drainage structures for the pur­ conservation officers, each of whom may pose of co-ordinating their works with soil have to service 500 or more farmers. conservation schemes. The Government The main aim of the advisory group meets the cost of these special structures and committees proposed in the Bill will be to the later reduced maintenance costs assist to offset the initial capital expenditure. promote discussion groups, and my officers have ample evidence that this line of approach I have discussed the financial aspects at will influence all but the hard-core minority some length because these are factors which of obstinate farmers. cannot be lightly dismissed by any person or authority engaged in this work. At the same The rapid rise in soil conservation interest time, it should be recognised that expenditure by landholders in recent years encourages on soil conservation measures can return me to believe that this hard core will be real benefits to the landholders and the com­ a very small one. I sense from the comments munity. As a comparison, the New South of the hon. members for Barcoo and Fassifern Wales Government spent £484,624 from that they also hold this view. revenue alone in the year 1962-63. In Vic­ The hon. member for Tablelands has quoted toria the revenue expenditure for 1962-63 was £192,175. the progress made in the tobacco areas in his electorate, and this is indeed a good The hon. members for Barcoo and Bunda­ example of the rapid action which may be berg drew attention to a need to interest the taken in a district once the seriousness of Commonwealth from the aspect of finance the problem is appreciated. It is a matter because of the very substantial national of record that the Mareeba-Dimbulah tobacco benefits likely to stem from the permanent farmers have shown the highest percentage preservation of the soil. I would point out that increase (10 per cent.) in soil conservation this matter is currently being pursued with interest in the State during the year just the Australian Agricultural Council. completed, despite the fact that active The hon. member for Fassifern made a programmes commenced there less than three good point when he said he believed that years ago. a number of people refused to co-operate But despite the rising tide of supporters because they did not really understand the of soil conservation we recognise that there benefits that would accrue to them and will be some who will give little or no that there were others who through obstinacy were not prepared to do so. co-operation, and it is at this point unfor­ tunately that the second approach, involviJ?g My officers are in intimate contact with some direction, becomes necessary. The Bill the farming community throughout the State provides the means to ensure that this and they report that there are now few minority does not defeat the wish of ~he farmers who oppose the principles of soil majority to implement a soil conservation conservation, but that there are many who scheme and the State's urgent need to preserve hesitate either because they do not fully its soil resources. understand the implications of an eroding landscape or because they are reluctant to The Leader of the Opposition, and the change the habits of a lifetime. I am sure hon. members for Bundaberg, Townsville that all members will agree that proper South and Tablelands have commented on management of the soil, and not exploitation, this need, and, as they have now read the is the objective to which we must all strive. Bill, I am sure they will be satisfied with the provisions. The direct punitive provisions There are two possible ways of dealing with have been kept to a minimum, though there people who are thoughtlessly exploiting their is a penalty of up to £100 for any offence land, and both approaches are well covered against the Act. 93 2834 Soil Conservation Bill [ASSEMBLY] Soil Conservation Bill

The Bill provides for a trust or, as There are, of course, special powers of applicable, the authority, to carry out such control provided in the Bill. In addition, measures as are required by a direction, there are a number of points whe·re the correction notice or order in regard to which authority, Minister or Governor in Council an owner has defaulted. In addition to must approve of trust approvals before the such penalty as may be applicable for an trust can proceed to implement them. offence, the trust or authority can recover I was pleased to hear comments from most the costs incidental to such measures as a speakers concerning the necessity for the debt or by way of complaint under the Justices Acts. adoption of soil conservation land-use prac­ tices, and in particular I felt that the ho~. When considering orders or notices, the member for Mt. Coot-tha presented certam question of appeals or objections becomes issues very clearly. We recognise the need a most important issue. A great deal of for a change in land-use practices so that thought was given to this point in the cultivated lands are given every chance to drafting of this Bill, and in finally determining continue in a highly productive state. the matter two important issues predominated. Most thinking farmers appreciate t~e desirability of including a pasture phase ~n Firstly, it is necessary that an appeal be their crop rotations but, at present, certam heard by some person or body with sufficient economic disabilities are tending to slow knowledge of the technical and associated down progress in this direction. However. issues to determine the propriety of the there is a mounting interest in stubble order or notice. Secondly, a rapid determina­ retention and in the adoption of strip­ tion is necessary because of the continuance cropping practices as a substitute for contour of a malpractice through a storm or monsoon banks on the newly cultivated, gently sloping season might seriously endanger the interests lands. The results now being obtained from of many other land-owners. these practices are most encouraging and There is, of course, not the slightest trace we are hopeful that the solutions to cert~in of compulsion in the constitution of soil problems affecting the valuable Darlmg conservation districts or project areas, nor in Downs plains wiii follow strip-cropping the appointment of trusts. To function exploratory work now being pursued. effectively, these units must command the The brigalow area was referred to by some support of a majority of land-owners and in speakers, and quite correctly they sounded the case of districts, because of the very a warning concerning the relatively shallow substantial responsibilities which might be topsoil on most of this type of country and involved, a two-thirds majority is required. emphasised the inherent erosion dangers. The hon. member for Townsviiie South My officers are very conscious of these asked whether the Bill provides for the reso­ special problems, but a reassuring feature lution of erosion in watercourses within the is the high proportion of land holder~ on boundaries of a city or town, or for dealing new country who lay out their blocks on with other erosion problems within town or conservation principles and who invariabl_y city areas. adopt soil conservation practices on the1r new cutivation areas from the outset. As I have indicated earlier, the question of erosion in watercourses is the province While we would prefer to see much more of my colleague the Minister for Local country remain in pasture, it is accepted th~t Government and Conservation; but this Bill economic considerations often lead a !ana­ would allow for towns to be included in holder in the direction of cultivation if only districts, provided of course that the neces­ to augment the pasture through the intro­ sary two-thirds of land-owners are in favour duction of crop fattening. of such a step. I doubt very much whether It is appropriate at this point to indicate that would be the case. that the Government is aware of the need The Leader of the Opposition was con­ for the close association of soil conservation cerned that trust activity could be affected and development planning because so often by giving a preponderance of representation land development brings soil erosion prob­ to people who would be affected adversely lems in its wake. With this in mind, we financially and who may be reluctant to play have recently amalgamated the development, their part in following sound soil planning, and soil conservation branches. to conservation recommendations. form a Division of Development, Plannmg. and Soil Conservation, and Mr. Ladewig has There could be some difficulties in this been appointed as the new director of this regard and I agree with the view of the division. I was pleased indeed to hear so Leader of the Opposition that the central many speakers commend Mr. Ladewig on authority should have overall power and his wonderful work in soil conservation. authority to see that the decisions and actions Of course, this is not the only reason for of the various trusts are in acceptable terms. placing emphasis on these two aspects of It is for this reason that we wish to see departmental activity, because we have long a Government-appointed chairman for at since recognised the need for the careful for­ least the first three years in order to help ward planning of State development. In guide a trust in the adoption of acceptable essence, we are aiming to collate and and sound administrative procedures. co-ordinate through this division information Soil Conservation Bill [23 MARCH] Soil Conservation Bill 2835 on soils, cropping, stock industries, costs of conditioned to meet the circumstances of the production, market availability, land use, and case, and at a new rental and a renewed soil conservation needs, with a view to point­ term having regard to the facts of the case. ing the direction and manner of the develop­ No special legislation under the Bill is neces­ ment of agricultural production. I feel sure sary or desirable here. that this action will provide a basis for the The second point raised by the hon. mem­ development of new lands on a permanent, ber for Mt. Coot-tha has been carefully stable basis. examined, and it is apparent that the Land The hon. member for Barcoo referred to Act, which now extends a statutory priority the possibility of including a representative right of renewal of lease in respect of a living from the Council of Agriculture on the area, provides adequate security in respect advisory committee. The inclusion of a of terminable leases either by way of ensuring representative of primary industry interests a renewal of lease where subdivision is not does have a great deal of merit, and at the involved, or by providing for due recognition appropriate time I will recommend to the of improvements when determining the reten­ Governor in Council that a representative tion area or compensation in cases where of the Council of Agriculture be appointed subdivision is involved. to the advisory committee. This will be in accordance with the provisions of the Bill. Where the expiry of a lease is close at hand, this could presumably provide a sub­ The Council of Agriculture, which caters stantial basis for objection to an order or for a wide range of producers' organisations, direction issued under the provisions of the has consistently taken an active interest in Bill. On the other hand, the Land Adminis­ soil conservation, and a representative of the tration Commission could be expected to council could materially assist in the delib­ take such facts into consideration in dealing erations of the committee. with an expired or expiring lease. The pre­ At this stage, it is appropriate for me sence of soil conservation measures and the to express appreciation to the Council of willingness of a lessee to undertake and Agriculture, which two years ago set up a accept his responsibilities in this regard could special sub-committee to examine the be major factors in determining whether statutory needs for an active soil conserva­ any subdivision should be initiated. tion programme. The submissions made to me some 18 months ago have assisted in The hon. member for Tablelands referred shaping the Bill. It should be recorded that to the consequences of unwise clearing of a member of this Assembly, namely, the hon. timber and suggested that the indiscriminate member for Logan, took a leading part in clearing of timber should be controlled. Few these discussions and served as both member would deny that the clearing of excessively and chairman of the special soil conservation steep land or of other vulnerable areas is committee. very unwise, but I should be rel~ctant !o support clearing control based on licence m The hon. members for Barcoo and respect of freehold land because this wo~ld Mt. Coot-tha have expressed concern regard­ involve a relatively large staff to examme ing certain of the provisions and their pos­ all proposed clearing for the purpose _of sible effect on conditions of leases, or on the detecting, say, 5 per cent. that mr~~ reqmre position of lessees of terminable leases. With prohibition. I prefer the proviSions as regard to the first point, it will be noted presently drafted, which pro-:ide fC!r pro­ that in the Bill the Minister for Primary hibition in those instances m whrch an Industries is limited to making recommenda­ erosion risk obviously is likely to be created. tions concerning lease conditions. Any neces­ sary administrative action rests with the In regard to the destruction of approved Minister for Lands. This matter could be works by any farmer, the hon. member for examined by the advisory committee in the Tablelands can rest assured that the Bill first instance. contains adequate safeguards. It will be noted that the Bill provides for The question of trust audits has been a member of the Land Administration Com­ examined closely, and in order to bri_ng mission to become a member of that com­ these provisions into line with the practice mittee. I should think it would be a rare now generally applied in local authority circumstance for a condition to be inserted audits I shall be moving an amendment to in an existing lease, but I believe that this clause 46 of the Bill. This provides for a provision could be included to cover the public accountant, appointed by the Min!ster ·situation in, say, a declared area of erosion hazard where every possible step needs to on the recommendation of the Audrtor­ be taken to bring the situation rapidly under General, to audit the books and accounts of ,control. a trust subject to the provisions of the Audit Acts. Since a local authority may be If in some cases the authori~y felt satis­ appointed as a trust, it appears desirable for fied that the imposition of a condition of similar audit arrangements to be made for lease was justified and in the public interest, both the local authority and trust activities and that the imposition of such a condition of this body. adversely affected the position of the lessee, there is ample provision under the Land Act The hon. member for Barcoo said that, as for the surrender of the existing lease and a result of an examination of the statistics, the granting of a lease in lieu thereof suitably he felt some concern about the capacity of 2836 Soil Conservation Bill [ASSEMBLY] Soil Conservation Bill available departmental staff to provide ade­ It must be remembered that the first Bill quate technical services to cope with the dealing with soil conservation was introduced expanding problem. Although common-sense into this legislature in 1951. The then farming practices can assist materially in Opposition seized on the opportunity of pro­ reducing soil losses, there is no substitute ducing the New South Wales legislation of for the trained technician when it comes to 1938 and the amendments thereto of 1947 the design of earth works that will be co­ and 1949 as criticisms of the Bill then before ordinated from property to property and the Assembly. which must intercept and direct run-off flow. We are very happy indeed that we are able With this in mind, we have set out to to give the Minister support in this all­ increase progressively the number of soil important matter. At the conclusion of the conservation officers in country centres and introductory stage the Premier promised that, have made a special study of ways and means at the second-reading stage those members of increasing the efficiency of these officers. who did not have the opportunity to speak I should like to record that in five years the would be given the same privilege as they soil conservation staff has been doubled and would be entitled to in an introductory that the efficiency of officers, when measured debate. No doubt some hon. members will in terms of protective measures installed, has be prepared to take the opportunity so been doubled, also. This has resulted in a presented, even though the hour is late. quadrupling of performance, and it is expected that further improvement can be Unfortunately, because of conversation in made even without staff expansion. the Chamber earlier, I did not hear all the figures relating to the financing of this Because of this, we expect to accomplish wonderful project. I appreciate that the as much in the next four years as has been Minister went to the trouble of presenting accomplished in the preceding 17 years, but those figures and, on behalf of the Leader I will not pretend that the 100,000-acres of the Opposition, I wish to thank him for target set for next year is adequate to deal doing so as it was at his special request with the situation. It is our considered that they were conveyed to the House. The opinion that a protection rate exceeding figures that I heard only served to convince 250,000 acres a year is necessary in order to me that the big question facing the farmers deal with the problem in a reasonable time, of Queensland, and the Government, is the and the soil conservation advisory staff will cost of the whole attack on this serious have to be doubled if we are to reach this national problem. Part of the cost will objective. naturally come from the individual farmer, It gave me a great deal of pleasure to but some of it, quite justifiably, has also to hear the eulogistic remarks about the work be borne by the people generally. We of Mr. Ladewig and his staff because I know have to concede that this is an important that the basic aim of all these officers is to matter for all, because everyone in the assist every land-owner in the effective community is interested in the production of execution of soil conservation programmes. food. Irrespective of his calling everyone I assure the House that there will not be has a material interest in this matter. As a any slackening in the efforts to preserve the consequence, to preserve the wonderful soils of this State. The aim of the Bill is to natural resource of the soil and to gain the improve the facilities for tackling the greatest benefits from its products, we must problem of erosion. have a protection insurance. Unfortunately, this can only be done by a great deal of I am very appreciative of the reception individual hard and costly work on the part that hon. members have given the introduc­ of farmers with the co-operation of various tion of the Bill, and I will welcome any Government departments throughout the further constructive suggestions for the State, working in a co-ordinated manner improvement of its provisions. not only in their own activities but with the man on the land to see that soil con­ Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (11.44 p.m.): servation is propagated and soil erosion The Opposition is not very often in the mitigated. position of having to congratulate a Minis­ ter and give him virtually 100 per cent. for The Minister has given very full answers the Bill that he has before the House. to points raised during the introductory stage. However, on this occasion we must concede In that way he has been able to remove that to the Minister. from our minds many of the doubts that worried us. When this Bill was first mooted I made a very thorough research of all "Hansards" I have mentioned finance. The Minister on previous legislation and from them I did not go into the details, but perhaps he compiled brief reports on what the A.L.P. could tell us now what the Government Government of the day had done in 1951 proposes when these trusts are formed. What and also on every objection raised by the period of work will the members be expected then Opposition. I mentioned in the intro­ to do? On what basis will they be paid? ductory debate that I knew that the Minister Are they to be full-time salaried people had done likewise, because throughout his or will the operation be more on the basis of introduction there appeared every point of what members of a council might do, sitting criticism that had been tendered by members at periods throughout the year, perhaps at of this Government in 1951. monthly intervals? Soil Conservation Bill [23 MARCH) Soil Conservation Bill 2837

I was interested to see mention in the Biii on a minority vote. This is a very difficult of advisory committees. The Minister point to get around when there is a trust enlarged a little on this subject tonight. of five and a quorum of three, and an If I understood him correctly, these advisory important decision has to be made. There committees will act more or less on a may be only three present and it would voluntary basis to supplement the work of need a vote of only two to one to indicate the trust in fostering ideas throughout their whether or not a scheme should proceed. 1 communities. As I understand it, they will thought at the time that these major deci­ help to overcome any hostile feelings towards sions could be settled by providing that projected schemes. I should imagine that before they are approved by a trust there would be their function. If we are going must be a minimum of three votes. I do to have trusts working on the same basis not know whether or not that can be as local authority members, I cannot see achieved, but to my mind this work is so why we cannot have the advisory committees, important and so expensive for the individual who would be doing a service not only and the State that a decision made by a to the community but also to themselves, trust should be a majority decision. I put function in a more or less voluntary manner. that point to the Minister for an expression of There is the suggestion that they be opinion. If we can obviate minority decisions appointed. I should like to have that aspect it will be to the benefit of all because naturally of the advisory committees enlarged upon. there will be no local criticism. Consequently, I am talking about the small advisory there will be a feeling of confidence in the committees, not the important advisory trust and the work it is doing. committee that is to advise the authority. I also noted in the Bill that polls are I am talking about the local advisory to be conducted on several matters. They committees. In my opinion they will carry are all important matters and the Minister out very many important phases of the work. said in his speech tonight that applications I appreciate the fact that the Minister has and recommendations for the constitution of districts will require a two-thirds majority. conceded the inclusion of a member of the However, in the alteration of district Council of Agriculture on the advisory and boundaries only a simple majority is required. co-ordinating committee on soil erosion. I Later in the Bill, when the modes of con­ think it is most important to have that stitution of a trust are discussed-there are representation. I know that under the three, as hon. members know-it is provided provisions of the Bill the Minister has power that a poll must be held if the Minister to add. I sincerely thank him for accepting so desires. In that case I think it is manda­ that suggestion. Throughout Queensland tory. It does not even contain the word there will be an appreciation of the fact "majority". In the constitution of soil con­ that the Council of Agriculture will have a servation project areas, the Bill adheres to say in the important deliberations of the the majority rule. advisory committee. So of the four polls, the one dealing I was concerned because it was suggested with applications and recommendations for that while there were eight members on the the constitution of districts requires a two­ committee, only four were required for a thirds majority. The one dealing with district quorum. I had a conversation with the boundaries does not seem to be of the same Minister on this point. He agreed to the rank as the first one I mentioned, and the Council of Agriculture being represented on modes of constituting a trust can also be the advisory committee and then I requested classified in the same way. When we get that the quorum be increased to five. How­ down to the constitution of a soil con­ ever, I received his assurance that advisory servation project area. I suggest that it committee meetings were well attended and, could have been kept on the same level as as a consequence, there is no great need the constitution of a district, on the two­ to worry about the quorum at all. The thirds majority basis. Minister assured me that the quorum was A project area can include any number not of any great moment. of producers between three and 30. The It occurred to me that, in dealing with area would have to be large enough and the a matter of an individual trust, there is a number would have to exceed 30 before membership of five and the Bill provides that the authority or the Minister would consider a quorum will be a majority of the members. that it was big enough to become a district. Of course, that is three out of the five. However, there will be vacancies on trusts I think in the instance of the constitution from time to time when they meet, perhaps of a soil conservation project area it would on account of a death or an indisposition, have been more consistent to keep it in sometimes because of the pecuniary interest of line with the district poll requirement of a a member or members in a scheme in hand, two-thirds majority. or perhaps because of the pecuniary interest I have been through the Bill very carefully, of the spouse of a member, when members and I want to avoid reiteration of what is of the trust are automatically disqualified obvious. The Bill contains something that for the time being. In my opinion these will benefit Queensland. It is really the schemes are so important that we must second stage-I would say a more progressive not have entering into their consideration step-in the march against soil erosion, which any idea that they can be bulldozed through is a constant problem in our community. 2838 Soil Conservation Bill [ASSEMBLY] Soil Conservation Bill

As time goes on I hope that we shall reap the Downs where erosion is manifest, which is benefit of the wise legislation that we are one of the reasons why I mentioned here endorsing. To have this position where that it is vigilance that will pay dividends. farmers are given statutory power to pursue The reference made by the hon. member soil conservation is a forward step. for Mt. Coot-tha is important because he Recently I read in "Queensland Country spoke of wheat-cropping in the briga_low ar~a. Life" a reference by the hon. member for The briaalow areas are the ones wrth which Mt. Coot-tha on soil conservation. It reads­ I am familiar. Since the subdivision of "Soil Conservation Plea by MLA: Peak Downs land and the movement of those Stop Grain on Brigalow Land successful in ballots to their blocks, there has been an infusion of share farmers into "A plea against the use of brigalow lands the community and we are very glad to have for wheat cropping until research had them. There has been a splendid increase in shown the possible long-term dangers, was the population of the district. Although the made in State Parliament by the Liberal season has been against both farmers and member for Mt. Coot-tha, Mr. Lickiss. share-farmers there has been progress in the "Mr. Lickiss was speaking to the Soil building up bf the community, evel?- if per­ Conservation Bill now before the House. haps bank balances are not so satisfactory. "Summer fallowing for wheat would I can assure hon. members that as the cause a complete denudation of the rolling Minister for Lands opens up new brigalow brigalow soils in 10 to 20 years, Mr. country, even though under the Brigalow Lickiss predicted. Lands Corporation there d?es no.t seem to "Mr. Lickiss said the State was opening be any provision for financial assistance . for up great areas of brigalow, gidyea and obtaining farming plant, etc., men consciOUS softwood scrubs in the 15 to 30 in. rainr"all of the agricultural potential of the area a~e areas. Banks and agricultural advisers going to endeavour to obtain J?lant and: begm were advising that these newly-cleare·d to cultivate. I am also certam that, JUSt as lands should be used for cereal growing. we have seen an infusion of share-farmers into the Peak Downs area on subdivisioJ?-al "Long dry periods-This was laying blocks we will also see share-farmers gomg down the basis for disaster because: onto 'the so-called cattle-raising properties "Brigalow soils generally are on rolling that are being opened today. country. I do not think that pleas by the hon. "Heavy storm rains and heavy monsoonal member for Mt. Coot-tha or any other hon. rains are interspersed with prolonged dry member or by any member of the com­ periods." munity,' will stop this agricultural pr~g~ess. All we can do-l think that the Mimster I think the hon. member is a little wrong in will agree with me on this-i~ s~e that the what he says about heavy monsoonal rains; Department of Primary Industne-s IS et~rnally they seem to have gone from my area of viailant that it seeks the co-operation of Queensland, at any rate. Perhaps some la~d-o~ners that it is prepared to extend people in the North may still experience them. to them th~ greatest possible assistance an~ However, I am not criticising him for saying advice, and that in some cases, perhaps, It that. coaxes them to follow good land usage prac­ I brought this matter before the attention tices so that the soil will be preserved. of the House a year or so ago when soil I am very pleased that I saw this article in conservation, as it related to a Bill then "Queensland Country Life" because it con­ being discussed, was being dealt with. I firms what I said here previously, and, of pointed out that it was extremely important, course we are all vain enough to appreciate particularly in the Central Highlands where that s~meone else thinks what we have said new country was being opened up. Since is correct. 1955, or thereabouts, when subdivisions into There will be an agricultural revolution in 5,000-acre living area blocks were made and the Fitzroy Basin in the next 30 or 40 years; agricultural conditions were imposed on those but as the years go by and more land. comes who were successful in ballots, people have under the plough, the problem Will rest been coming in. They have farmed, and squarely on the shoulders of th~ DepartiD:ent they have been followed by others who of Primary Industries and Its techmcal bonght land from people settled in officers and the man on the land. It must adjoining areas before the subdivisions were be brought home to every person in. the. com­ made. This has gone on from year to year, munity that he must make a contnbution to and this great agricultural expansion has this wonderful project. As I stated, the resulted in the area becoming the sorghum Commonwealth Government must be made bowl of Queensland, at least from the point of cognisant of the value to ~ustralia's def~nce view of the export trade. of building a fine commumty of Australians I said then that that was the right time who are, in the main, self-sufficient, because for the Department of Agriculture and Stock, in the event of an attack by an enemy from as it then was, to step in and see if soil overseas there would at least be enough food conservation practices could be introduced at in this ' wonderful area to maintain the the beginning so that soil erosion could be population. I might add, too, that the popu­ mitigated. I have seen country in one or lation of Australia will not increase unless two of the properties on beautiful Peak we have the power to produce more food. Soil Conservation Bill [23 MARCH] Soil Conservation Bill 2839

The Premier will agree-I have heard him Mr. O'Donnell: I raised that point because say this-that Australia and Queensland are I suppose the idea is for a project area not particularly noted for good rainfall. subsequently to be developed into a trust. Because of deficiencies in rainfall there is If you have an ordinary vote at the begin­ much poor country in Australia, and it there­ ning, will you later take another vote and fore behoves us to protect the good land ask for a two-thirds majority? that we have and see that its productivity does not diminish. Mr. ROW: Yes, to get a trust it must be a two-thirds vote. To get a project area, Finally, I thank the Minister for the kind only a simple majority is necessary. remarks that he has made about various members of the Opposition. I am very Provisions relative to share-farmers in pleased that he has appreciated the contri­ areas 1 and 2 of the brigalow belt include butions that they have made, and I, in turn, the proviso that cultivation operations must indicate to him that we apprecia.te his be carried out in the manner recommended by courtesy. the Department of Primary Industries. Motion (Mr. Row) agreed to. Hon. J. A. ROW (Hinchinbrook-Minister for Primary Industries) (12.14 a.m.), in reply: CoMMITTEE The hon. member for Barcoo raised a number of points that I think should be (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, answered. Greenslopes, in the chair) First, he asked a question about the func­ Clauses 1 to 9, both inclusive, as read, tioning of the trusts-whether they will be agreed to. paid, or whether certain conditions will be Clause 10-Functions and duties of the taken into consideration. It will depend on Authority with respect to soil conservation- the size of the area controlled by a trust. Where the area is relatively small-less than Mr. DAVIES (Maryborough) (12.19 a.m.): 100,000 acres-a trust could function with a I do not desire to delay the Committee, so I part-time secretary and, say, monthly or two­ will be very brief. In glancing thr~ugh t.he monthly meetings, possibly with a meeting functions and duties of the authonty With allowance. A large trust, of course, may require a permanent secretary. When local respect to soil conservation I notice that in authorities are appointed as a trust the good (f) such functions and duties shall be- old shire clerk may be of very great "instruction of and assistance to land­ assistance. holders and others in matters pertaining to soil conservation and the prevention and On the matter of advisory group com­ mittees referred to in clause 53 of the mitigation of soil erosion;" Bill, these committees will function for the My general impressions of the Bill are that purpose of assisting a trust in understanding there are so many committees to be formed, the basic needs and views of even the so many officers to be appointed and so smallest schemes in the trust district. The many of these advisory commitees all ne~d­ most important matter raised, I think, would ing their secretaries that I was wondenng be the possibility of there being no quorum whether, when moneys are raised by wa~ of of the trust. A quorum is a majority of loans the authorities are to be responsible members of the trust for the time being. for these officers? That point will come up That is, if five is the number for the time a little later. I want to emphasise that at being, a majority of three will be required. the present time there are only 28 soil con­ However, if there was a most unusual set of servation extension officers in the State. I circumstances-and I should say that in the question the wisdom of the general spirit and case mentioned there could be an unusual nature of the Bill, which seems to breathe so set of circumstances-where two of the three much compulsion. We hear members of the have pecuniary interests whereby there are Government complaining about too much two casual vacancies, of those three mem­ authority being exercised over the farmer bers constituting the trust, a majority of only and the landholder, but here we have a two would be required. In a case where Bill in which every clause seems to breathe pecuniary interests were involved I, as the authority, compulsion and threats. I am Minister, may exempt or disqualify a person wondering whether it would have been better if I consider the business of the trust will if the Government had decided to appoint a be impeded. much larger number of conservation exten­ sion officers to advise the landholders. On the other point raised on majority requests, a two-thirds majority would be I must agree that soil conservation is a required to determine the boundaries of a national problem. We know that the financial district because of the very substantial losses are tremendous. It is the duty of all responsibilities which could be assumed by those on the land to preserve the good a trust. A trust is a big area. A project earth. Every man on the land should en­ area is expected to be relatively small. For deavour to hand over his land richer than the most important problems of the area when it came into his possession. I agree responsibility is accepted by the soil con­ that the man on the land will generally servation authority rather than by the farmers respond to greater drive, encouragement, themselves. assistance and instruction. 2840 Soil Conservation Bill [ASSEMBLY] Soil Conservation Bill

From the report we have been given it repercussions. Of necessity it could change appears that in the West Darling Downs the whole pattern of land use. In a previous area there is a 107 per cent. increase in 12 debate I was fortified by the hon. member months in the number of landholders who for Barcoo, and I thank him for his support. are willing to undertake the responsibility of I believe that there are inherent dangers doing what is required to overcome the in the present and projected use of such problems that result from the neglect of the lands as brigalow lands. However recognition land. The figure for the Burnett area is 67 must be given to the matter of soil conser­ per cent. and for North Queensland 185 vation and the present accepted economic per cent. use of land. When we impose conditions on The Minister has failed to deal with over­ how land shall be used we must be mindful stocking. This is one of the problems that at all times that we are putting a restriction leads. to wind and water erosion. By over­ on that land which can affect the market stockmg you remove the vegetation which in value of 'the land, at least for a period. turn means an increased flow of water. It is an interesting point that if you increase Hon. J. A. ROW (Minister for Primary the flow of water you can increase its Industries) (12.27 a.m.): In reply to the hon. carrying capacity some 64 times. That is member for Maryborough, I was indeed a staggering fact. Advice and instructions surprised to hear his remarks about the should be given to landholders to endeavour compulsion clauses in the Bill. I think he to increase the planting of trees on their has the word "authority" confused in his holdings, particularly around the headwaters own mind. The Authority is the soil con­ of the various streams and creeks, to help servation authority who shall be the Director­ hold back the water. It is generally accepted General of Primary Industries. We have that with a good foliage coverage about 25 three definite objects. We start off with per cent. of the water is held back while the the project area where groups of people get rest of it gets away. together on a voluntary basis, under the Overstocking is a tremendous problem but guidance and advice of departmental officers, I do not see any evidence in the Bill that it and voluntarily contribute towards a mutual is being given any serious attention. I scheme. Then, there is the Soil Conservation believe that when the man on the land Trust where the areas can amalgamate and becomes aware of what the Bill contains form larger areas, but the Trust cannot be in the way of so much organisation he will formed unless two-thirds of the people are feel . that he _is being over-organised and in favour. Anyone who feels that he is runnmg the nsk of considerable expense. being prejudiced by being included in the However I will touch on that point later. At scheme can appeal to the Minister. The the moment I draw the attention of the Com­ last resort is the one, where the "authority," mittee to clause 10 (f), which is a good one. in his wisdom, if he believes that an area I personally saw the value of this straight of land is being so eroded or neglected as away. When there was a concentration of to constitute an erosion hazard, and so may people on the land in Kingaroy during the war be detrimental to an area or a group of one or two people said, "I will get all the farms or a district, he can declare that as an value out of the soil I can. I don't care how erosion hazard. Following the theme of I do it." The peanut industry later suffered centralised control the Bill assigns those as a result of the lack of humus and the fact duties and responsibilities to the Authority, that minerals had not been returned to the the Director-General of Primary Industries. soil. For a number of years there was a The additional responsibility assigned is the reduction in plantings so that the land could prevention or mitigation of soil erosion in all areas of the State, and in particular in be used for dairying and the rotation of other areas of erosion hazard. crops. In. that ~ay the general fertility of the SOil was Improved. I think much Clause 10, as read, agreed to. more could have been achieved by not rushing in with a Bill that reeks of com­ Clauses 11 to 15, both inclusive, as read, pulsion, threats and authority, and the likeli­ agreed to. ~ood of tremendous expense. With the money Clause 16-Applications and recommenda­ mvolved we would have been able to appoint tions for constitution of districts- a sufficiently !rage number of soil conserva­ tion extension officers throughout the State. Mr. DAV:ffiS (Maryborough) (12.29 a.m.): Mr. UCKJLSS (Mt. Coot-tha) (12.25 a.m.): Subclause (5), at lines 49 and 50 says- I see a problem in clause 10 in that, in exer­ "If the Minister is of opinion that a cising the function of the Authority, there could proposed district would be unable to bear of necessity be a change in the use to which the cost of administering the Trust ..." land can be put. In changing the purposes for which land can be used we can vary the I must say I believe that many men on ~he productive pattern of land and hence affect land fail to appreciate to the full the. ternfic the return expected when compared with damage that is being done by erosiOn: . I the previous use of the land. If we think that the Leader of the OppositiOn do this we are in fact varying the touched on this matter when he mentioned market value of the subject land. I that improved varieties of crops and pastures just point this out because a soil con­ and improved breeds of lives~o.ck caus~~ us to servation scheme could have far-reaching fail to appreciate the dechmng fertility of Soil Conservation Bill [23 MARCH] Soil Conservation Bill 2841 the soil. The bigger returns as a result This will entail considerable staff for each of what I have mentioned more than balance trust, and when the average cost to each is the decreasing fertility. multiplied by what can be reasonably expected If we have a district where there is a will be a large number of trusts, the amount necessity for what would be a major scheme of money involved will be very great. There in the minds of the local farmers in that will be double rating. There will be the locality, should that not be a problem to be rating of the Local Authority, and if the dealt with by the State? There are countless local authority is not handling the matter, illustrations of that; residents of the State there will be a special rate struck. There provide, for instance, water reservoirs. The are then valuations to be considered. Where tobacco-growing industry in the Mareeba section of a rateable area is included in area would be of little value if the farmers in a proposed soil erosion area, the Valuer­ that area did not have the Tinaroo Dam, General has to make a special valuation which was paid for by the State. of the area. Until the man on the land realises what I well appreciate the tremendous damage this Bill means he will wonder if this will done by soil erosion. For instance, enough amount to a special tax on the farmer. No topsoil is washed down the Mississippi in matter what the Minister states, that is what a year to build 1,250 farms of 160 acres it will come back to. A minority not in favour each with soil 12 inches deep. In the of a general scheme may not be in a position Burrinjuck Dam in one 8-year period the to meet the costs. I think this passes on to a net volume of silt deposited within the section of the communtiy a sectional tax reservoir amounted to 12 · 05 million cubic which is unjustified. I think there will be feet. Everyone realises that this is a most strong feeling against this measure when the serious matter. contents of the Bill are fully realised by the I feel that in this Bill we are not man on the land. approaching the problem in the spirit in Clause 16, as read, agreed to. which it should be approached. The Minister Clause 17, as read, agreed to. has not faced up to the tremendous costs that will be involved in the scheme. Although Clause 18-Soil conservation trusts- he may claim that the results will be worth Mr. DAVffiS (Maryborough) (12.32 a.m.): the expenditure, I feel that they could be The Minister has not given us any idea of achieved in another less costly way. how many trusts he anticipates will be Persuasion is better than compulsion, which formed in the State. He should be in a is what the Bill reeks of-compulsion, the position to give us that information. From exercise of authority, and the imposition of that we will be able to estimate the total penalties. amount of money involved in the payment Clause 44, as read, agreed to. of the various officials. Clause 45, as read, agreed to. I draw the attention of hon. members to the wide powers being put into the hands of Clause 46-Accounts of Trust and Audit the trusts. The clause says that a trust shall thereof- be capable of compounding- Hon. J. A. ROW (Hinchinbrook-Minister ". . . in any court of competent juris­ for Primary Industries) (12.38 a.m.): I move diction all debts or sums of money due the following amendment- to it and, subject to this Act, shall have "On page 24, lines 9 to 12, omit power to take, acquire by grant, purchase, subclause (2)- take on lease, hold, sell, exchange, lease, assign, transfer and surrender to the Crown, 'At least once in each year the property." Auditor-General shall audit the accounts of each Trust and shall have, with Reading through the Bill it is apparent that respect to such audits and accounts, great powers will be exercised, mostly with all the powers and authorities conferred a two-thirds majority, over the farming on him by "The Audit Acts, 1874 to community generally. There is no provision 1963," and shall report thereon.' anywhere dealing with the problem of over­ stocking, which is a grave one in this Satte. and insert in lieu thereof the following Public attention should be drawn to the new subclause-- guilt of anybody who overstocks. 'A Trust shall cause its books and Clause 18, as read, agreed to. accounts to be audited once at least Clauses 19 to 43, both inclusive, as read, in each year by- agreed to. (a) an officer of the Department of Clause 44-Form of budget until a form is the Auditor-General; or prescribed- (b) a person appointed by the Minister on the recommendation of the Mr. DAVffiS (Maryborough) (12.35 a.m.): Auditor-General and who is registered I cannot deal with the following clauses, but as a public accountant under the the same criticism applies to them. I do provisions of ''The Public Accoun­ not want to repeat myself. The clause states, tants Registration Acts, 1946 to "Form of budget until a form is prescribed." 1963." 2842 Soil Conservation Bill [ASSEMBLY] Questions

The Auditor-General shall in relation Land Administration Commission is repre­ to the books and accounts of a Trust sented on the advisory committee, I will cer­ and in relation to any audit thereof tainly take the matter up with it if the have all the powers and authorities question arises. conferred on him by "The Audit Acts, Clause 48, as read, agreed to. 1874 to 1963." Clause 49, as read, agreed to. A Trust shall pay the cost of the audit as prescribed from its general Clause 50-Powers of Trusts- fund.'" Mr. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha) (12.44 a.m.): Amendment agreed to. I wish to speak on this clause because the Clause 46, as amended, agreed to. introduction of a soil conservation scheme in an area may mean a change in the use Clause 47, as read, agreed to. of land, and the accepted use of land over Clause 48-Rates- a period in effect dictates what its market value will be. If it is necessary to change Mr. UCKISS (Mt. Coot-tha) (12.41 a.m.): the use to which the land can be put, which The clause deals with the raising of moneys in turn will affect the annual net return for the purpose of effecting a soil conserva­ from the accepted farming pursuit, will com­ tion scheme. The rates are to be levied on the pensation be payable under this clause? rateable value of the land, and this is based Hon• J. A. ROW (Hinchinbrook-Minister on the unimproved capital value of the land, for Primary Industries) (12.45 p.m.): Yes, irrespective of whether it is leasehold land or clause 50 (2) provides for compensation to land held in fee simple. This situation raises be paid to the owner where loss or damage the question of terminable interest land. results and, where compensation cannot be The basis of rating fixed by a local authority agreed upon, the matter shall be decided by requires the owner or occupier of such land the Land Court. to contribute to the amenities of the district, not to the maintenance of the land, and we are Clause 50, as read, agreed to. using here the rateable value and imposing a rate on the land to effect what might be termed Clauses 51 to 101, both inclusive, as read, repair and maintenance to the property con­ agreed to. cerned in this conservation district. If the Bill reported, with an amendment. land is held in fee simple. I cannot see any great difficulty other than that the rate is The House adjourned at 12.47 a.m. being levied at so much in the £1 irrespective of the amount of soil-erosion damage present with respect to a particular property might be very badly eroded; the next door property might be eroded only slightly. As both properties are in the same district, each will contribute on the rateable value of the land.. This could create a small anomaly, which will be accentuated, in regard to the terminable interest leases. I doubt very much whether the work could be classified as an improvement, and I doubt whether it could be considered as an improve­ ment on the expiration of the lease in relation to a claim for compensation. This could impose a hardship on the owner or occupier of a terminable interest lease. I ask the Minister to consider this point because hardship could be involved where a person in a conservation district is compelled to provide a share equal to that provided by a person who holds freehold land, in order to effect repairs under a soil conservation scheme. Hon. J. A. ROW (Hinchinbrook-Minister for Primary Industries) (12.43 a.m.): I will consider this matter. Frankly, I do not think it is very likely to arise, because the con­ servation trusts as presently envisaged will be mainly on agricultural land. They could eventually cover grazing farm leases or graz­ ing land, but for the time being I think they will cover agricultural land, most of which will be held under fee simple or on perpetual lease, or some other secure tenure. As the