Tuesday Volume 503 12 January 2010 No. 22

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 12 January 2010

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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health House of Commons (Ann Keen): The taskforce has heard evidence from many groups representing women and children who are victims of all forms of violence, including trafficking. Tuesday 12 January 2010 The taskforce on the health aspects of violence against women and girls, chaired by Sir George Alberti, is The House met at half-past Two o’clock currently considering the report and the recommendations of the sub-group on harmful traditional practices and trafficking, which it established for that purpose. PRAYERS Mr. Steen: Is the Minister aware that many trafficked women display multiple problems, both physical and [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] mental, and that when they go to accident and emergency units in hospitals, as well as to general practitioners, they are not readily identified as trafficked women, but viewed as victims of violence? Will she therefore consider Oral Answers to Questions whether we could improve training for both GPs and hospital staff, so that when they actually meet battered or mentally disturbed women who have been trafficked, HEALTH they recognise that, rather than seeing them simply as victims of violence? The Secretary of State was asked— Ann Keen: First, I am sure the whole House congratulates Dentistry (Shropshire) the hon. Gentleman on his work with the all-party group. He has been such a force for good, and not only 1. Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): in our own country: he has often visited other European What plans there are to improve NHS dental provision countries to see what is happening. in Shropshire. [310016] I know that Devon black and minority ethnic community development workers engage with vulnerable communities, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health but the taskforce is such an important one and the (Ann Keen): The Department has invested a record questions are so relevant. The training that health care £2 billion in dentistry and set up a national access workers receive for meeting difficult situations will be programme to help the national health service deliver covered in Sir George Alberti’s report, which we expect its commitment to provide, by 2011, access for all who to be published in early February. A specific training seek it. It is, of course, the responsibility of Shropshire mandate will, I feel, be put in place from those County primary care trust to plan and develop appropriate recommendations. services, including dental services, to meet the needs of its resident population. Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South) (Lab): I doubt Daniel Kawczynski: I thank the Minister for that whether anyone can match the hon. Member for Totnes answer, but I must tell her that my experience of trying (Mr. Steen) for the work he has done on this issue, but to find an NHS dentist in Shrewsbury for myself and my limited experience of it prompts me to ask whether my family has been an absolute nightmare. Can she the interface that trafficked women have with health provide me with a list of NHS dentists in Shrewsbury services in the voluntary sector can be assisted by and Atcham that are currently taking on patients, so overcoming the linguistic barriers, which are part of the that I can share that with my constituents? problem. In many cases there is a heavy dependence on people who are themselves part of refugee communities Ann Keen: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman and to act as translators. Often, they have real difficulties his family were troubled with uncomfortable dental facing the Home Office when addressing their own pain at some time, but I know that he accessed the problems regarding deportation. Will the Minister ask advice line and that he was assisted. I would be happy to for a coherent interface between key workers and those talk outside the Chamber about any particular points within the refugee communities in that process, to ease that he wants to make on that. Of course, access to the problems that those women face? NHS dentistry has grown in Shropshire. Over the past 12 months the number of people who have seen an Ann Keen: My hon. Friend raises some more excellent NHS dentist has risen by more than 11,000. I am aware points. Those areas are covered by the research and the that the PCT is tendering three new contracts—in Market report’s findings, and we are working across Government Drayton, Oswestry and Bridgnorth—which are due to with other Ministers, particularly Home Office Ministers, start in April 2010, and a new contract was tendered in to address that very point. 2006 for Shrewsbury as a high-priority area. Trafficked Women NHS Funding 2. Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con): What recent representations the health taskforce on violence 3. Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) against women and girls has received on the role and (Lab): What account is taken of relative levels of response of health services in respect of trafficked deprivation in determining NHS resource allocations. people. [310017] [310018] 539 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 540

The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): The Secretary Deprivation is accounted for in the NHS funding formula, of State will be aware that GP practices in deprived which reflects both deprived and older populations’ communities lose out financially and that there are greater need for health care. An additional health 18 per cent. fewer GPs working in poorer communities. inequalities component in the formula directs funding He will also be aware that the Health Committee heard to the places with the worst health outcomes, targeting evidence of the failure of the incentive scheme for health inequalities better than ever before. payments to GPs to do anything effective about health inequalities. There is evidence supporting the call for Dr. Blackman-Woods: Can the Secretary of State tell radical action to change the way in which the qualities the House whether he has any further plans to try to and outcomes framework works. When will the Government reduce health inequalities by targeting resources further take action to change the current completely unacceptable towards the most deprived areas of the country? Does situation, whereby GPs in richer areas are paid better he agree that the Opposition’s premium pledge is just a than those in poorer communities? sham, because the policy is already being implemented Andy Burnham: Of course we keep such matters by the Government? under review at all times. However, the funding formula for general practice contains a minimum practice income Andy Burnham: I can say to my hon. Friend that next guarantee, which protects precisely those practices to year County Durham PCT will receive £1,800 per head which the hon. Gentleman referred. I would also point of population, £200 more than the England average, him towards the respected international Commonwealth reflecting the fact that there are higher levels of disease Fund, which late last year published a comparison of and deprivation in her local community. Obviously that primary care in the 12 most developed countries around has been a component of the formula since 1999. The the world. It is a source of huge pride to me and to Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation in the NHS every Member on the Government Front Bench—indeed, keeps the matter under review, and it says that the to every Member on the Labour Benches—that primary decision is an interim step to give more money to tackle care under this Labour Government is the envy of the health inequalities. We keep the matter under review, world. and I can advise my hon. Friend that Professor Marmot will shortly give us his report on further action to tackle Mr. Parmjit Dhanda (Gloucester) (Lab): Is my right health inequalities, which we shall consider in due course. hon. Friend aware that the alternative formula that was put forward in this Chamber three years ago by the Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Surely the purpose of hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) the NHS is simply to treat individuals, wherever they would reduce the funding going to our local NHS in happen to live around the country, with the treatment Gloucestershire by £109 for every man, woman and that they need to deal with their particular problems. child who lives there? Will my right hon. Friend resist Will the Secretary of State confirm that all health that 9 per cent. cut to our local NHS? spending will be given on that basis, and that basis alone, rather than basing it on the socio-economic Andy Burnham: What I would say to my hon. Friend environment in which an individual lives? is that we have sat in the House over the past five years of this Parliament and heard every member of the shadow health team criticise the Government for allocating Andy Burnham: I am told that there is a general more resources to communities with higher health needs election not too far off. May I respectfully point out to and more deprivation. So when we read what the the hon. Gentleman that it might help him to read his Opposition’s policy in their draft manifesto is, I do not party’s draft manifesto from last week, which included know how they have the brass neck to sit there today the commitment to and look as though it was always their policy: it beggars “weight public health funding so that extra resources go to the belief. The Opposition need to spell out which PCTs poorest areas”? will win and which will lose under the new policy. I He is going to be standing on that manifesto in a few suspect that my hon. Friend’s PCT might lose from a months, so he had better read it—and pretty quickly, I policy that gave more money to deprivation, on top of would say. what we give such communities today. Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): Can my May I just say how much we will miss David Taylor at right hon. Friend tell us what the level of resources per our Health questions and health debates? He was always head was 10 years ago? here, and always had good insights and real commitment to the national health service. He will be much missed, Andy Burnham: I can say to the Chairman of the as he was a good colleague to us all. Select Committee on Health that the England average Will the Secretary of State confirm that patients next year will be £1,600 per head of population. Turning should be able to expect equivalent access to treatment the clock back 10 years, we see that it used to be from the NHS wherever they are in the country? Will he £426 per head of population. That figure demonstrates explain why in his Leigh constituency, the NHS spends the change that this country voted for when it elected a over 40 per cent. more on cancer services per cancer Labour Government. The country was saying, “Our patient than it does in my constituency? NHS needs to be put back on its feet. We need to invest in it to give people in all parts of the country the best Andy Burnham: I would like to begin by echoing the possible health care.” In that figure alone we can see the shadow Health Secretary’s remarks about David Taylor, difference that this Labour Government have made. who was a regular attender at Health questions and 541 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 542 health debates; I am sure that his voice will be sorely Mr. Speaker: Order. I am extremely grateful to the and genuinely missed by Members on all sides of the Secretary of State, and I know that he wants to say House. something about other parties’ policies, but he must The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that now focus exclusively upon his own. my constituency has more deprivation and ill health than his does, and that is picked up in the funding Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): My right formula. I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman is hon. Friend will know that my constituency has had asking this question when his manifesto of last week significantly increased funds. None the less, we have said in terms that his party will adopt precisely the same very high death rates from heart problems and cancer in policy—so how can he stand at the Dispatch Box and low-income wards. How can we manage that situation? criticise the fact that my constituency of Leigh, a former What education and community programmes are there mining area, receives more for its greater health needs? to help people in low-income families understand the serious dangers from smoking and poor nutrition?

Mr. Lansley: The Secretary of State just doesn’t get it. Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend is right. We need to I was quoting the figures on the amount spent by the give the resources to areas such as hers so that they can NHS in each of those areas per cancer patient—not the spend them on smoking cessation programmes and overall allocation between the areas, but the amounts improving access to primary care. Research has shown spent per cancer patient. Let me give him another that communities of that kind benefit greatly from example. Perhaps he can explain why, although higher improved primary care, and also that national targets NHS allocations go to more deprived areas, the money have played an important role in improving health is spent on responding to the consequences of ill health outcomes in the most deprived communities. I assure rather than on preventing disease, which is the reason my hon. Friend that that will remain a central tenet of why it is allocated. Why is there one hospital bed for this Government’s health policy. every 245 people in the north-east of England, but one bed for every 408 people in South Central? Mental Health

Andy Burnham: I am genuinely confused, because for 4. Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): What five years, from his side of the Dispatch Box, the hon. recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of Gentleman has accused us of spending too much money psychiatric intensive care units in the provision of in constituencies such as mine. The reason why my area mental health care. [310019] can spend more on cancer is that, historically, smoking I note that the Minister of State is to answer this has been higher in the constituency. It was the hon. question, which will give the Secretary of State a chance Gentleman’s manifesto of last week that said that the to calm down. Conservatives would weight public health funding so that more went to deprived areas. So he would give my The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil constituency more money than it gets today—yet every Hope): Acute care services, including psychiatric intensive one of the Conservative Front-Bench team has criticised care units, remain an essential component of the our funding plans. The hon. Gentleman should either Government’s drive to improve and modernise our mental accept the situation today and tell us which primary health services. Moreover, as a result of nine consecutive care trusts will get more and which will get less, or years of increased mental health spending, more people realise that his policy will have no credibility whatever. with acute mental health problems are being treated in the community than ever before. Mr. Lansley: He still doesn’t get it, does he? Will he explain why the local PCT in his constituency presently Dr. Lewis: I give the Government full credit for the spends £39 a head on its management costs but just creation of the psychiatric intensive care unit at Woodhaven £31 a head on its healthy individuals programme, which hospital in my constituency. That is why I am so concerned is preventive spend. That is the point; this is about about the fact that it has been “temporarily” closed for prevention. What is needed is higher public health the last three months. Six patients from the New Forest budgets for the areas with the poorest health: less who are in desperate need of its assistance have been bureaucracy, more prevention—that is our health premium. farmed out to Havant and Basingstoke. May I appeal Will he not just accept that we need real help to reduce once more to the Minister to intervene to ensure that health inequalities through preventive health care—because Ellingham ward at Woodhaven is reopened as soon as we can’t go on like this? possible?

Andy Burnham: It is our policy to allow local PCTs to Phil Hope: The hon. Gentleman has raised this matter decide where they spend the money on the areas that with me before, both at Question Time and during they think will have the most impact, whether that be debates in Westminster Hall. Since our debate last prevention or cancer. For the last five years the hon. October, Hampshire Partnership NHS Foundation Trust Gentleman has accused me of giving too much money and Hampshire primary care trust have established an to those areas, and now he has completely abandoned independent review panel to examine their proposals to that pledge. It would appear that it is not him but his change services provided by the psychiatric intensive party leader who is now writing his shadow health care unit. An updated report will be sent to the Hampshire policy. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman, who sits there health overview and scrutiny committee on 26 January, and gives out the orders, that he has had his policy on and the full report will be completed within a month. single rooms dropped, and he has had his policy on The independent review will be conducted by a panel of health resources dropped, so why does he not book experts, including an independent consultant psychiatrist himself— and an independent director of nursing. 543 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 544

I hope that that reassures the hon. Gentleman that The hon. Gentleman did not say that he would remove his concerns are being heard, that action is being taken targets, but he needs to explain how we would achieve and that an independent review will ensure that we such improvements if we were to simply drop all the secure the best possible outcome for patients, based on targets. a clinical assessment of their needs. 7. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Cancer Treatment What proportion of GP surgeries are open in the evenings and at weekends. [310022] 6. Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): What plans he has to increase the speed of treatment of people presenting to their GPs with symptoms The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike consistent with cancer. [310021] O’Brien): Some 77 per cent.—three quarters—of GP surgeries in England are open outside normal surgery The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): hours, offering their patients routine appointments. We Over 94 per cent. of patients currently see a cancer expect this figure to continue to rise. specialist within two weeks of urgent referral for suspected cancer by their GP. Of those subsequently diagnosed, Andrew Gwynne: I thank my right hon. and learned 85.7 per cent. commenced treatment within 62 days. We Friend for that answer. As somebody who, unfortunately, have plans to offer patients in England access to diagnostics had to make extensive use of GP services over the which may confirm or exclude cancer within one week. Christmas recess, including the out-of-hours service at the new Tameside walk-in centre, may I say how massively Tony Lloyd: Can my right hon. Friend confirm that if convenient it is now that my local GP services are the Government’s cancer pledge that patients will be operating extended hours? However, what more is being referred within a week comes to fruition, it will save done for patients of GPs who are not yet offering that 10,000 lives every year? That is very significant, given provision? that cancer is still seen not simply as a major killer but as a major condition, in terms of people’s view of Mr. O’Brien: My hon. Friend is right to say that we health care in this country. Is there any chance of my need to do more to ensure that extended hours are right hon. Friend being able to persuade Opposition offered. We intend to give patients a right to register parties that consensus would be in the national interest? with a practice of their choice—perhaps one that offers Andy Burnham: I can confirm that the aim of reducing extended hours. Furthermore, neighbouring doctors can to one week the wait that people experience during what apply to be paid for seeing patients of practices that do is probably the most stressful time of their lives is very not offer extended hours. The Government’s extended much the Government’s policy. The national cancer hours policy has been an increasing success—but of director has estimated that that would indeed save course if the Tories are elected, they will get rid of it. 10,000 lives every year. As my hon. Friend says, the key challenge is early diagnosis. We must focus, and are Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): focusing, all our efforts on that. I do not believe that This is an issue of great concern to my constituents. I some of the policies promoted by others would get us note the Minister’s response to the previous question, anywhere. In fact, they would return us to the days of a but is he confident that the full range of GP services, postcode lottery for those important services. such as pharmacies and access to a nurse, are available during weekend and extended hours in south-east London? Mark Simmonds (Boston and Skegness) (Con): I am well aware that that exchange constituted an attempt to Mr. O’Brien: We are increasingly moving towards shed light on Conservative policy.Of course the Conservative getting a larger range of services, particularly for GPs. party wants to see improvements in the provision of Levels of nursing and pharmacy services vary between cancer services. As the Secretary of State said, there practices, but we want to ensure that we increase the must be a much greater focus on prevention, earlier number. However, when the hon. Gentleman stands on presentation leading to earlier diagnosis, faster access to his party’s manifesto, he will have to recognise that his innovative drugs and treatments, swifter implementation party would get rid of those requirements: that appears of survivorship initiatives, and implementation of quality to be its announced policy. indicators. All those will improve under a future Conservative Government. The key question that the Secretary of State needs to answer is why, despite the Government’s Charlotte Atkins (Staffordshire, Moorlands) (Lab): 12 years in office, Britain’s five-year cancer survival rates What contribution are the new GP-led health centres are still among the worst in Europe. making to greater access to GPs? In my own area, a new health centre is being built in Biddulph. It will be the Andy Burnham: Without going into all the nonsense first time that my constituents have had access to out-of- and waffle with which the hon. Gentleman began his hours GP services in the evenings and weekends. question, may I just give him his answer? In a letter to me last year, which prefaced the “Cancer Reform Strategy” Mr. O’Brien: The new GP-led health centres are annual report, the national cancer director said that providing a real incentive for practices that up to now there had been a further fall in cancer mortality in the have not offered extended hours. They can see that last two years for which figures were collected. Overall, GP-led health centres are there, and that some patients therefore, there has been a decrease of 19.3 per cent. will start to use them unless GPs start to offer the among under-75s since 1995-97. In his words: extended hours. GPs can also see that, with £161 million “We are well on track to achieve the target of a 20 per cent. available in the coffers of PCTs, additional funding is reduction by 2010.” available for GP practices that offer extended hours. 545 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 546

8. Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): What Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): But the Minister his estimate is of the amount of charitable giving to will be aware that this question is causing enormous NHS institutions in the latest period for which concern. Why has the confusion been allowed to continue information is available. [310023] for so long, given that the Charity Commission alerted the Treasury and the Department of Health to the The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil problem in August 2008? The Charity Commission has Hope): In 2008-09, NHS trusts and primary care trusts made it clear that such an arrangement is not necessary in England received contributions from all charitable or appropriate for charities in the state sector. The sources totalling £62 million in expenditure and £65 million accounting rules concerned apply in the private sector. in fixed assets. The Department does not collect that Why can we not rule it out once and for all? information for NHS foundation trusts, which report directly to Monitor. Phil Hope: As I hope I have already suggested, we are actively looking into the dilemma that the hon. Gentleman Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Is the Minister aware that the describes, and I hope that he and all other Members of Burnham-on-Sea memorial hospital extension was funded this House, as well as charities and the NHS, will join by its magnificent league of friends, and that that form me in ensuring that we do not spread confusion and of local charitable giving would be betrayed if it were mislead people about the consequences of looking at regarded as part of the general NHS budget and used those accounting standards. Let us be absolutely clear: by the Government to make offsetting reductions in the we very much welcome people making contributions funding for the NHS trust concerned? Will the Government through charities to support those receiving health services. give an absolute assurance that such a change, which is The role of NHS charities is crucial. Only one in being considered, will not happen? 10 NHS charities are even affected by this possible Phil Hope: I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that accountancy change. It makes no difference to the that is not the case, and never will be. NHS; it is not part of the NHS. I would hope that the hon. Gentleman would join me in ensuring that we put Mr. Ken Purchase (Wolverhampton, North-East) (Lab/ the record straight, and do not mislead or misguide Co-op): And never has been. people and deter them in any way from making such contributions. Phil Hope: Indeed, as my hon. Friend says, it never has been the case. Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): My local hospital— Charity trustees will continue to have full responsibility the wonderful Chorley hospital—is part of the Lancashire for charitable funds; they are not, and will not be, part Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. Why can of NHS budgets. There is a question about accounting we not ask for information, but our question has to go requirements—I think that that is what the right hon. to Monitor instead? Surely, as a Member of Parliament, Gentleman was referring to—but that is not a matter of I should have the same rights as other MPs in being able Department of Health jurisdiction. However, I continue to ask questions for Ministers to answer. Does the to work with the Treasury, Monitor, the Charity Minister not agree? Commission and other stakeholders to seek ways of strengthening the independent governance of NHS charities, Phil Hope: My view is that Members of Parliament to ensure that we meet that standard without invoking can ask Monitor for information, and can receive that the requirement for consolidation, and that matter is information. I think that is entirely appropriate, and I currently under discussion. would encourage Members who have questions they want to ask of Monitor to put them with the usual Jane Kennedy: What are the latest figures for charitable vigour with which they put question to Ministers here giving to the Royal Liverpool Children’s NHS Trust? If at the Dispatch Box. my hon. Friend does not have those figures to hand, may I, through him, pass on an invitation from the Mr. Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): Despite the hospital to our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State? answers that the Minister has just given—this is of The hospital invites the Secretary of State to visit it so particular relevance to those of us who are trustees of that, on his way to Goodison Park, he can see for charities and are finding that this problem is exercising himself the tremendous contribution that charitable us a lot in respect of our various fiduciary duties—the giving makes to the new hospital that will be built with Government are still allowing there to be a risk of funds from the £1.2 billion committed by this Government charitable donations being subsumed into hospital accounts. to Merseyside for new hospitals. When people give to charity, they expect that money to be for extra things, rather than for those that are part of Phil Hope: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to the established costs in the NHS budget. Will the Minister say that charitable giving makes a huge difference. give an absolute guarantee that under the Treasury’s Many people who have experience of the national health new rules there will be no danger whatever of money service want as a result to make a gift or donation to given to charity being counted as part of the NHS thank it for the support and care it has given them, or a budget, and that there will be no resultant offsetting? loved one. Many charities work closely with NHS institutions and NHS charities. This is a cause for Phil Hope: The short answer is yes. The long answer celebration, and I want to make it clear today how is that NHS charities are not part of the NHS, have much we value that, and that that independence is never been part of the NHS and, under this Government, absolutely right. There is no question whatever that never will be part of the NHS. They are independent charitable funds could be used as part of NHS budgets; bodies, governed by an independent regulator, doing I want that very important message to go out from the fantastic work in providing fantastic services. I hope House today. that the hon. Gentleman—and the hon. Member for 547 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 548

North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who speaks for the The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian Liberal Democrats—will stop putting out misleading Merron): More than 6,000 responses to the consultation, information, and instead will reinforce the fact that which closed on 16 November, have been received and NHS charities remain independent. are being analysed. Our response will be published as soon as possible. GP Telephone Numbers David Tredinnick: This has been going on since 2004, 9. Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): so surely the Department can give us a date. Is the What recent guidance his Department has issued to GP Minister aware that the Northern college of traditional practices on their use of 0844 telephone number Chinese medicine, which is in its 21st year, has had its systems; and if he will make a statement. [310024] university accreditation withdrawn by the university of Central Lancashire because there is no statutory regulation The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike of this sphere? That is the fault of Ministers and O’Brien): The Department issued guidance and directions something needs to be done—they need to get on to the NHS in England on 21 December, just before with it. Christmas, that patients should not be expected to pay more than the cost of a local call to contact the NHS, including doctors’ surgeries. GPs will have this year to Gillian Merron: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s end the practice completely and get out of any contracts frustration with the amount of time that has been that cause that to happen. taken, but I know that he also understands that any regulation would need to be balanced and proportionate. Mr. Robertson: I thank the Minister for that response, These are complex issues and we want to get this right. I but he will be aware that the practice is continuing. He assure the House that Ministers are keen to see publication says that it must end this year, but there is an awful lot as soon as possible. of this year left, so when does he expect the practice to end? Not only does it make it expensive for people to call their local general practitioner, but older people in Purley Hospital particular often prefer a human being to answer the phone, rather than be responded to by a machine. 11. Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): When Mr. O’Brien: I agree that we need to ensure that this he expects redevelopment of Purley hospital to take practice of some GPs charging more than a local rate place. [310026] for contact ends as quickly as possible. We have made it absolutely clear to GPs that they must get out of these The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike contracts—a number of practices have signed up to and O’Brien): Croydon primary care trust and the Mayday are legally bound by them—and they have the year to Healthcare NHS Trust are firmly committed to the do so. We have engaged with some of the companies redevelopment of Purley hospital. It is for those involved and, to be fair to them, they have said they are organisations to determine a timetable, and both have prepared to negotiate equitable arrangements with the assured me that they will seek to keep the hon. Gentleman GPs to see whether we can get them all out of this as informed of the progress. I understand that he had soon as possible. They have all got to be out by recent meetings with at least one of them. 21 December, but we want them to be out now, or as soon as they possibly can be. Richard Ottaway: I would have thought that the Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): This situation Minister would include a degree of humility and an is not just in the hands of GPs; the provider that the apology in his answer. It is eight years since his predecessor patient is using is also ripping them off. For instance, stood at that Dispatch Box promising a new hospital in when someone phones a GP’s surgery on an 0845 number Purley. We are in desperate need of services in the south from a call box, the charges will be over the top, and of our borough, so will he please give orders straight people will still be charged even on the new 0300 numbers. away to get on with this development and do so in such Will the Minister examine why these patients are still a way as to ensure that if there is a change of Government being ripped off by their providers, as well as by GPs? in a few months’ time, the orders will stand and the development will still go ahead? Mr. O’Brien: Our objective is to ensure that anyone trying to contact the NHS locally pays a local rate, and Mr. O’Brien: I am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman we need to ensure that such practice is adopted. If the is anxious to avoid there being a change of Government, hon. Gentleman has evidence to suggest that particular because we know that the new announced policy of his issues are arising, I would be happy to discuss them party may well mean that he will not get his hospital—I with him. understand his concern. Alternative Medicine I shall now deal with the specific point about Purley hospital. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it was to be 10. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): When he developed by a private sector company called Translloyd, expects to publish his proposals for the regulation of but as it was unable to get a retail developer on to the practitioners of acupuncture, herbal medicine and site the original plan was declared to be no longer traditional Chinese medicine, following his Department’s feasible. Translloyd still owns the site and Croydon consultation on the matter; and if he will make a council is trying to find ways to release it for development. statement. [310025] As he knows, the problems arose in 2008. 549 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 550

NHS Funding The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian Merron): Independent pharmacies play an important 12. Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): To and valuable role in providing pharmaceutical services. what extent levels of deprivation in local communities The NHS pharmaceutical services regulations treat all are taken into account by his Department in providers equally and there are no plans to change this. determining NHS resource allocations. [310027] Mr. Allen: After a powerful campaign by the local community in my constituency, we were able to keep The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike open Mr. Mistry’s pharmacy, a local community pharmacy O’Brien): As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of in my constituency, and Tesco withdrew its application State has said, deprivation is a key feature of the NHS to have an in-house pharmacy nearby. That is a good funding formula, which reflects both deprived and older outcome for everyone in the community, but will the people’s needs in health care. We are clear that we want Department pull together some of the big supermarkets to ensure that that remains part of the formula. and the representatives of the pharmacy associations to discuss a sensible way forward so that such battles do Ms Keeble: I am grateful to my right hon. and learned not take place and local communities keep effective Friend for that answer. I wanted to ask him further pharmacy services? about the deprivation experienced by pensioners in the community in view of the very tragic deaths of two of Gillian Merron: Pharmacists such as Mr. Mistry and my constituents, Derek and Jean Randall, in quite many others up and down the country provide an appalling circumstances. In view of my lack of confidence excellent service to their local community, and my hon. in some of our local arrangements, will he ensure that Friend is quite right to campaign for a vibrant and his Department has very careful national oversight of diverse range of pharmacies. The truth is that the public the local review of the case that is going to take place? value and use a range of provisions from supermarkets Will he ensure that any lessons that can be learned that through to local pharmacies. Perhaps we can look to apply nationally are rolled out and applied nationally to the provisions of the Health Act 2009, which will mean ensure that no one else has to endure something like that the local NHS will be able to assess local needs and this? It is completely inappropriate in 21st century to meet them. Britain that pensioners should experience such ordeals and should die such very tragic deaths. Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): Does the Minister accept that there is a particular problem in rural areas, Mr. O’Brien: My hon. Friend is right. The case of where the predatory practices of supermarkets might Derek and Jean Randall is deeply tragic and we need to lead to the closure of pharmacies, depriving large ensure that it is fully and properly investigated. I understand geographical areas that are thinly populated? Will she that a local multi-agency safeguarding board is undertaking take some steps specifically in that case? a serious case review. I cannot comment until all the details are available—I have only read the front page of Gillian Merron: The provisions of the Health Act will the Daily Mail today, and it certainly seems a very mean that the local NHS will be able to assess local worrying case. I want to ensure that this is fully investigated needs, to fill the gaps and to monitor quality better. and that the results of the investigation are open. We This is all about being driven more by the needs of the will take a keen interest in the outcome and we want to patient, whether they are in rural or urban areas, than ensure that any lessons that need to be learned are by those of the provider of the services, as is the case at learned and that this sort of thing does not happen in present. It is important to say that the supermarket the future. sector provides some 5 per cent. of the market, whereas the larger contractors—such as Boots, the Co-op and Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Will the Lloyds pharmacy—provide something like one third. Minister tell the House whether the level of deprivation There is no evidence that supermarkets are driving the featured in the decision of the Department of Health to smaller operator out of business. end the reciprocal health agreement with the Government of the Isle of Man? That agreement, which has been in Ambulance Turnaround Times place since 1948, is to be ended on 1 April this year. This is a very serious matter. May I have an answer? 14. Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con): What his most recent assessment is of the performance of NHS Mr. O’Brien: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of ambulance trusts regarding ambulance turnaround State will be meeting the Manx Minister in due course. times; and if he will make a statement. [310029] We are not minded to change our policy on this. We take the view that our approach is the right one, and we The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike will see what the outcomes are of the discussions with O’Brien): Information on ambulance turnaround time the Isle of Man. is not collected by the Department, so in a sense we do not have that information. There is quite a wide range of data in relation to how long people get for lunchtimes Pharmacies and so on. We do, of course, keep response times and that sort of data. 13. Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) (Lab): If he will bring forward proposals to protect small Mr. Vaizey: Does the Minister agree with Unison that pharmacy businesses from the effects of in-house the new eight-minute target for ambulance response pharmacies opening in supermarkets. [310028] times could put patient lives at risk by forcing ambulance 551 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 552 crews to go from two to one? Would it not be better to T4. [310045] Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): In 1997, find a bottom-up solution and force ambulance trusts there were 284,000 people waiting more than six to publish their data on websites so that the public months for NHS treatment. What is the figure today, could see individual ambulance response times? and what are the Government doing to prevent the situation from sliding back to the bad old days when Mr. O’Brien: We certainly take the view that improving the Conservatives were in power? the response times of ambulances is very important. That is why the new response times have been put The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike in—to take away the period of time for the call, which O’Brien): My hon. Friend is quite right: we must prevent was one of the issues causing delays. In the past, the a drift back to the bad old days. In his area, Yorkshire clock did not start ticking until after the call was put and Humberside, in 1997, there were 26,719 people through, whereas we now include the time from the waiting more than 26 weeks. In November—these are point at which the call is made. That is a better reflection the latest figures I have—the number was zero, so of the standard of service that patients get. As for nobody was waiting. Whereas we will lock in that publishing every ambulance time, I think that might be achievement as a right, the Conservative party would somewhat bureaucratic, but information can now be remove the guarantee. The Conservatives will have to provided in general terms about average ambulance explain to the public why they would do that. times. T2. [310042] Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) Topical Questions (LD): This morning, I faxed to the public health Minister’s office some documents provided to me by the investigative T1. [310041] Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): journalist Jane Symons. Those documents show that If he will make a statement on his departmental the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority responsibilities. has not only spent millions of pounds pursuing, ultimately The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): failingly, an individual clinician, but that the new chief Today, Sir Michael Parkinson has published his report executive who was brought in to sort out the problem on his year as the national dignity ambassador. I thank had argued for an externally led inquiry last year. Why him on behalf of the Government for the time that he has that inquiry not happened? Does the Minister have has given to raising awareness of the issues that affect any proposals to ensure that we know why millions of us all and for the personal insight that he has brought to pounds of taxpayers’ money was wasted in that way? considering how we can improve care for older people. The fact that there are now 12,000 dignity champions The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian working at a local level illustrates the difference that Merron): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his Sir Michael has made, and we will look to build on that. courtesy in forwarding the documents, but I remain of the view that it would not be in the public interest to As the cold weather continues, staff across the NHS, pursue an inquiry. There have been a number of significant particularly ambulance services and accident and emergency changes at the authority since the time of the incidents staff, have been working extremely hard to minimise the covered in the memo, which I would be happy to write impact on patients. Although it is under greater pressure, to him about. However, the interim chief executive has I can tell the House that the NHS in all parts of the acknowledged that the authority is not free from criticism, country is coping well. I am sure that Members on both and there is to be an internal governance review to sides of the House will want to join me in thanking consider all these issues. health and social care staff for their efforts to help to protect vulnerable people at this time. T5. [310046] Mr.BrianJenkins(Tamworth)(Lab):Given Mr. Robertson: I certainly endorse the last part of the the very harsh winter that we are suffering at present, I Secretary of State’s comments. May I bring to his have no doubt that my right hon. and learned Friend attention the rather long waiting list that people who the Minister of State will recall the annual winter crises suffer from acute back pain have to go through before that we used to have more than a decade ago. People— they see a consultant? As a long-standing and regular mainly elderly people—were lying on trolleys in our sufferer myself, I know that it is no laughing matter. hospitals for days before they died, after which their The waiting time is such that if the problem is serious, it bodies were stuffed in refrigerated vans outside. What can progress a great deal in that time. If it is a less can he do to assure me that those crises will never return serious problem, it will no doubt have corrected itself in to this country, and how do we manage to cure that that time. Whichever situation applies, the waiting time problem? is far too long. Can the Government do anything about that? Mr. Mike O’Brien: Elderly people are of course now able to benefit from flu jabs, winter fuel payments, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health pension credits and, when it gets very cold, cold weather (Ann Keen): The hon. Gentleman is right to say that payments. In 1997, the NHS spent £426 per person on back pain creates many problems, not just for the health, but today it spends £1,612. Whereas the Tories people involved but for the economy in general. That is were frozen in the ice of their own indifference to older why we now have a system of self-referral to a people, this Government actually care. physiotherapist. I believe that all patients should have that right. We will also be looking at the development in T3. [310044] Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): the chief medical officer’s recent report on pain clinics Will the Minister match the very helpful answer that I and how chronic pain is managed, including how chronic had from the Minister of State at the Department for and acute back problems can be managed. Transport on Thursday about how that Department 553 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 554 and the Department of Health have been working Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I thank the closely together to provide the preventive medicine of Secretary of State for agreeing to meet the Chief Minister road gritting, so that hospitals receive fewer people of the Isle of Man about the future of the reciprocal with fractures? In Croydon’s Mayday hospital, health agreement. Will he get his officials to look particularly fractures are currently up 40 per cent., but at the at the impact that that decision could have on his beginning of the crisis they were up 316 per cent. and my constituents who are TT enthusiasts— motorcyclists—and the impact that it would have on Mr. O’Brien: It is certainly the case that we need to NHS North West if the Isle of Man took its elective ensure that the NHS works with local authorities to surgery purchases away from there to Edinburgh, Belfast make sure that ambulances can get through, that ambulance or Dublin? crews can get to their ambulances, and also that the service is geared up to deal with the various problems Andy Burnham: As the Minister of State, my right arising from the recent very bad weather. We need to hon. and learned Friend the Member for North make sure that the various bodies work together, and Warwickshire (Mr. O’Brien), mentioned a moment ago, the information that we have so far suggests that they I have agreed to meet the Manx Health Minister to are doing so. discuss these issues. As a north-west MP, I know that the island has a long-standing relationship with the T9. [310050] Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): The Autism north-west of England and its health service, and I will Act 2009 was a great success for Back Benchers across commission the work that my hon. Friend mentions on the House, in co-operation with a caring and receptive the potential effect of purchasing being switched. I am Government. It calls for the autism strategy for helping not minded at present to change our position but I will, adults with autism and Asperger’s syndrome to be of course, listen to what the Minister has to say. published. Will my hon. Friend the Minister of State make sure that it is published before we are diverted by T7. [310048] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) other matters a little later in the year? (LD): I thank the Minister of State, the right hon. and learned Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O’Brien), The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil for his support for the Better Healthcare Closer to Hope): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. Home project so far. Is the Department on track to The 2009 Act was a landmark piece of legislation, complete the review of the project by the end of this which was passed on a cross-party basis. I can reassure month, and is the Treasury ready to pick up the baton him that the autism strategy is due to be published immediately afterwards? before 1 April this year. Discussions on the strategy are going on as we speak. Indeed, the external reference Mr. Mike O’Brien: We want to move the project on as group that has been advising us on it—and which fast as we reasonably can, and we hope to be able to get involves service users, family carers, voluntary organisations, things sorted through by the end of the month. Let us professionals and so on—met only today to consider its remember that there are some local decisions to be contents. The strategy will be backed up by a clear made over which we do not have entire control, but the delivery plan, and further guidance for health and social objective is to get the project moving. care providers later this year. So yes, the Government are going to deliver on autism. Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Devonport) (Lab): Has my right hon. and learned Friend received any recent T6. [310047] Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): requests from the Ministry of Justice for up-to-date What does the Secretary of State consider will be the estimates of the increase in secondary pleural plaques most effective way to reduce binge drinking in the in order to enable it to come to a decision on a compensation young? package?

Andy Burnham: I recognise that the public mood is Mr. O’Brien: My hon. Friend has indicated that she changing when it comes to alcohol—not just binge wants to ensure that we are working with the Ministry drinking, but the general intake of alcohol by the wider of Justice on the matter. I assure her that we will be in population. There is rising public concern, as reflected regular contact in future with the Ministry of Justice to in last week’s report from the Health Committee. The develop the Government’s strategy as a whole in relation hon. Gentleman will remember the report on obesity to pleural plaques. that was published when I used to serve on the Committee with him. That report changed the nature of the debate, T8. [310049] Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): and it is possible that last week’s report will come to do I strongly endorse the question asked by my hon. Friend the same. We are looking at the next steps on tackling the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), alcohol, and considering the consultation on the mandatory but may I ask the Minister about another matter, which code and the measures to combat the irresponsible is related to autism, which has been raised already? promotion of alcohol. We are also considering going Eight out of 10 GPs confirm that they feel they need further on labelling, but of course I remain open to more training so that they can better understand autism further discussions with him and the Committee on and care for the condition better. What will the Government how we may go even further. do to ensure that there is sufficient resources, will and determination to deliver that extra training? Several hon. Members rose— Phil Hope: The consultations that we have had and Mr. Speaker: Order. I want to get several more colleagues the development of the strategy, which we will publish in, so I need very short questions and short answers. shortly, have made clear the importance of the GP 555 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 556 understanding, knowing, diagnosing and being able to Mr. O’Brien: I have heard the term “outcomes” being refer on appropriately individuals who may have any bandied about, but it is not always entirely clear what condition on the autism spectrum. An important part the Opposition mean by it; they seem to have different of the strategy that we wish to pursue is the training of views of what it means at different times. As far as the professionals—not only GPs, although they are a key Government are concerned, the important thing is that and vital part of the front-line services. Training of we ensure that the ambulance service is there when professionals and raising awareness among professionals patients need it, that its response times are within the of what autism is, how to respond to it and what criteria that we have set for it, and that targets are met. services are available is a critical part of the strategy The Opposition would get rid of the targets that save going forward. lives; we would keep them.

Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): At Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): Was the threat of the last Health questions, I raised the issue of lab 65,000 British swine flu deaths an unscientific exaggeration technicians who make dentures and crowns for dentists, that has cost the country dearly, not only financially but and I thank my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of in terms of stress and distorted NHS priorities? State for agreeing to meet me and my constituent, Andrew Taylor, this afternoon. In advance of that Andy Burnham: We had to take every possible step to meeting, can she confirm what her Department is doing keep the country safe through what was declared a to encourage UK dentists to use UK lab technicians? world health pandemic, not by this Government but by the World Health Organisation. We saw the events in Ann Keen: I look forward to meeting my hon. Friend Mexico in the spring, followed by the exceptional spike in the next half-hour to discuss that in more detail with in flu cases in this country in the summer. There were officials. understandably high levels of public concern, and I make no apology for making all the necessary preparations Mr. David S. Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab): It is to keep the public safe through that. We have come estimated that there are more than 20,000 men and through the pandemic because of the strength of the women in this country who are HIV-positive, and who plans and preparations that this Government put in have not been tested or diagnosed and therefore do not place. know that they are HIV-positive. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Department should aim to reduce that Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): Does figure by at least 50 per cent.? What action is the the Secretary of State agree that, to allow waiting times Department taking to achieve that objective? for cancer treatment to be monitored, specific data should be collected individually for each of the most Gillian Merron: Obviously, early identification is crucial. common cancers, so that a better picture can be seen? I We have talked at some length with the all-party group was not sure from his previous answer. on AIDS about measures that we can take, and I am happy to continue those conversations. Andy Burnham: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the report issued by the national cancer director at the end Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): of last year. He will see in it the publication of data, I have a young mum in my constituency dying of breast primary care trust by primary care trust, that have not cancer and desperate to prolong her life, with two been published in this form before. The report shows young daughters who rely on her. She has been prescribed how many patients are being referred on the two-week Herceptin. It is not working because of the size of the urgent referral pathway, and there is a whole wealth of molecules. She is told by her specialist that Lapatinib data on survival rates. I am always prepared to go would work for her. It costs less than two thirds of the further, however. The complaint from the Opposition is cost of Herceptin, yet she is being denied it. I wrote to always that we collect too much data, but if the hon. the Secretary of State on 19 November and I have Gentleman wants me to go further, I am prepared to chased him twice since, but I have still not had a reply. consider doing so. Will he please look at the matter urgently? Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): On Mr. Mike O’Brien: I have indeed been looking into Saturday, I met the Plymouth and South Devon Dystonia the issue of Herceptin, and I am aware of the way in Support Group, which was celebrating its first anniversary. which the National Institute for Health and Clinical Will the appropriate Minister please meet me to discuss Excellence has approached it. These are important and research and development, and treatment and support difficult issues, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman for that group of sufferers? that, if he has an outstanding letter on this matter, I will chase it up with my officials. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Yes.

Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I was Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The Minister of State, listening to what the Minister said about ambulance Department of Health, the right hon. and learned response times. They are of course important, but more Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O’Brien), made important are patient outcomes—whether a patient a welcome announcement over the Christmas break lives or dies and what actually happens to them. What about payments to the Thalidomide Trust. Did I miss progress is the Department making on ways of measuring the statement to the House confirming that announcement? patient outcomes so that ambulance trusts can be more The news was very welcome, but I would just like to sophisticated in the way they deploy their resources? know whether it is now on the record. 557 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 558

Mr. O’Brien: I hope that I might be able to say a bit concluded that minimum unit pricing is now essential, more about that in due course. but we must also consider the issues of deep discounting and selling below cost price, which also form part of the Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): The equation. This is a time not for shouting across the Floor Secretary of State knows that I have raised concerns of the House but for both parties to address the issues about the awarding of the contract for the Eccleshill and to ask whether the public mood has changed and independent sector treatment centre in Bradford. He whether we need to take a different approach to alcohol will now be aware that the decision to award that in our communities. contract has been suspended for another five months. I have said that it should not go ahead in the light of the Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): The Royal British concerns, and that there should be a public consultation. Legion says that little effective progress has been made Can he tell me why that decision was made, and whether on the veterans’ NHS priority treatment scheme. What we will now get that consultation? steps is the Minister taking to ensure that PCTs and hospitals monitor progress on this and that veterans get Mr. O’Brien: We are still looking at that matter and I the care to which they are entitled? hope that I will be able to give the hon. Gentleman a fuller answer on the details in due course. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Yesterday I was able to make an announcement, together with Combat Stress, one of the veterans’ organisations, to ensure that we deal in Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Earlier, the particular with some of the issues that arise as a result Secretary of State referred to the Health Committee’s of people being involved in combat. We also want to report on alcohol, and said that he was open-minded ensure that GPs are more fully aware of the rights of about it. Does that mean that the Government are veterans. We have asked that all PCTs ensure that they prepared to consider minimum pricing for a unit of have somebody at a director level who is responsible for alcohol? ensuring that this information gets out, and that strategic health authorities have someone in place at a director Andy Burnham: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman level—on the board—who is responsible for ensuring look at this Government’s record on tackling tobacco that this sort of information gets out and that veterans, over the past decade. That shows that we will continue who have served their country, get the service from the to take the bold steps necessary to improve the health of NHS that they deserve. the nation. I have said that we will do more on labelling, and on our mandatory code. Pricing is of course a key Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that the inquisitorial issue in this debate. I do not know whether he has appetite has been satisfied. 559 12 JANUARY 2010 560

Point of Order Video Recordings (Exemption from Classification) Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order 3.36 pm No. 23) Mr. Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. While you are in the Chair before 3.38 pm the House goes into Committee, I wanted to ask for Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I beg to move, your guidance. The Minister of State, Department of That leave be given to introduce a Bill to extend the criteria Health, the hon. Member for Corby (Phil Hope), has under which music and sports video works and documentaries written to my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of lose their exemption from classification. State for Health stating that the costings in the published Although we passed—or perhaps I should say impact assessment on the Personal Care at Home Bill, re-passed—the Video Recordings Bill last week, for which we are about to consider, are wrong. On 5 January, technical reasons of urgency it was not practical to he told me in a parliamentary answer: propose amendments at that stage. However, some small “A one-off transition cost of £335 million is set out in the but highly significant amendments are needed to ensure impact assessment”.—[Official Report, 5 January 2010; Vol. 503, a more robust regime for child protection. As chair of c. 277W.] the Joint Committee on Human Rights, I am an ardent On 8 January, he told my hon. Friend that, strictly supporter of the right to free speech and expression, but speaking, the one-off cost should be zero. Could you I acknowledge the need for a system of regulation that guide me, and indeed the rest of us, Mr. Speaker, as to protects children from harmful content in film, videos whether it is acceptable under our rules for the House to and DVDs. be considering a measure today, particularly on the At the current time, we have a very effective system of Floor of the House, when it does not have the full classification. The British Board of Film Classification information before it, and despite the Government’s undertakes extensive research into public opinion about having had adequate notice to correct their errors and what is acceptable content. The BBFC also takes account to ensure that they furnished us with the information in of research evidence and the advice of psychologists, advance of the debate? health care professionals and the police, among others, to produce guidelines, which are updated every Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for four years, that ensure that the content that reaches his point of order. I do not know whether a Minister children in the UK legally in the form of film, DVDs present wishes to say anything; he or she is under no and videos is of an age-appropriate nature and is not obligation to do so. The hon. Gentleman has registered harmful to them. his point very forcefully on the record. However, I hope However, there are gaps in the current regime covering that he will understand when I say that on the strength videos and DVDs under the Video Recordings Act 1984— of his 12 and a half years’ service as the hon. Member the VRA—and that is what my Bill aims to address. The for Eddisbury, he knows that that is a perfectly legitimate VRA permits a number of exemptions to the classification point of debate but it is questionable whether it constitutes regime. Currently they relate not only to video games a point of order. but to other video works such as music and sports videos. When the Act was passed in 1984, the assumption was that such works were unlikely to cause any concern. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, BILL PRESENTED Media and Sport has recognised that the regime for video games needs to be updated, and the Digital Economy Bill, currently in the other place, is intended SUSTAINABLE ENERGY (LOCAL ACTION) BILL to do so. As an aside, it is important to note that in doing so it should in no way undermine the classification Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) regime for linear—non-interactive—material by confusing Alan Simpson, supported by Mr. John Gummer, the responsibilities of the BBFC and those of the Video Mr. Gordon Prentice, Andrew Stunell, Mr. David Amess, Standards Council, which is intended to be the statutory Mr. Andrew Dismore, David Howarth, Mark Durkan, authority for classifying video games. Andrew George, Mr. David Drew, Bob Russell and Except in relation to video games, exemptions are Steve Webb, presented a Bill to promote energy efficiency; unfortunately not addressed in the Digital Economy to require specified bodies to publish sustainable energy Bill. That is a missed opportunity and the reason why I plans; to make provision for the transfer of functions to have chosen to bring forward my Bill, which would principal councils; and for connected purposes. extend the criteria under section 2 of the VRA to result Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on in specified video works losing exemption from 30 April, and to be printed (Bill 46). classification. At present, exemption can be claimed for video works such as music and sports videos, which can be very popular with children. Those videos can then be Mr. Speaker: I apologise to the hon. Member for sold to children perfectly legally, even if they contain Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) for extending his service in the material that is potentially harmful. My Bill is not House by two years. He has been here for 10 and a half intended to extend the VRA to all such exempted years; I will not say that it feels like 12 and a half. works, only to those that contain content that is potentially harmful, such as graphic violence, sexual content falling 561 Video Recordings (Exemption from 12 JANUARY 2010 Video Recordings (Exemption from 562 Classification) Classification) short of actual sexual activity, imitable dangerous behaviour I understand that the Government believe that the and drug use. Harmless video works of football matches enforcement authorities can already take such action. or artists from the “The X Factor” would remain exempt. However, the view of those who actually have that I have seen some of the less benign sport and music responsibility is that they cannot, because of the very videos myself. For example, the Ultimate Fighting high bar set by the VRA in order to lose an exemption. Championship’s “UFC Best of 2007” is a combat video For example, had the Slipknot DVD shown the two featuring martial arts and other fighting techniques. It girls actually in the process of mutilating themselves is available on the high street to any child because its with a sharp blade, that may well have constituted gross distributor has, quite legally, claimed exemption from violence under the VRA, but showing the scars after the BBFC classification under the VRA. It therefore carries event almost certainly does not constitute violence sufficient no age rating or consumer advice. It contains close-up to lose exemption from classification. images of bloody and sustained head blows, which are Many responsible members of the home entertainment replayed in slow motion from every conceivable angle to industry voluntarily seek classification certificates for ensure that the best possible view is given of the moments exempted video works that contain such potentially of impact. harmful material. Members of the British Video Another work that I have seen is Mötley Crüe’s Association—the BVA—doso even though they are not “Greatest Video Hits”, which features topless lap dancing legally obliged so to do. Their actions in this regard are and a George W. Bush lookalike in a limousine with a to be commended. I understand that BVA members prostitute. The packaging carries an E for exempt rating. support amendments to the Video Recordings Act that Gorgoroth’s “Ad Majorem Sathanas Gloriam” features would make it a legal obligation on distributors to have bloody bodies being crucified and a sheep’s head on a potentially harmful material classified, as proposed in spike. The American band Slipknot is hugely popular my Bill, but there are distributors who do not take the with children, some as young as 10, as well as with same responsible attitude. That lack of a level playing teenagers. As expected from the band’s reputation, its field serves only to add to consumer confusion. 10th anniversary DVD features strong content designed to offend parents. Among the most concerning images A parent looking through a shelf of music or fighting are those of the consequences of self-mutilation carried videos, some of which are rated 15 or 18, but some of out by two teenage girls who have carved the name which are marked E for exempt, is likely reasonably to “Slipknot” into their arm and torso respectively, yet the draw the conclusion that the E video is suitable for video carries a letter E in a green triangle indicating that younger children. Otherwise, the parents would assume, it is exempt from VRA classification. surely it would have been classified. Yet often, the content of E for exempt videos is virtually identical to Those are all works that parents could and should or worse than that of an age-restricted product. I would legitimately expect to be regulated, yet under the current therefore like to urge my hon. Friend the Minister to legislation they can all be sold legally without any age support this Bill. restriction. Indeed, it is worth noting that some of that material is rated and age-restricted in other countries. To conclude, this Bill is aimed at modernising the For example, the German film classification body rated VRA and improving consumer—and most particularly— the Slipknot DVD as suitable only for those aged 16 and parental empowerment, to protect their vulnerable children above and the Gorgoroth DVD as suitable only for adults. from harmful video material. I commend this Bill to the Trading standards officers would welcome the power House. to prosecute the supply of such unclassified works, but Question put and agreed to. believe that the current legislation exempts them because, for example, they do not contain gross violence, which Ordered, is a very high threshold, or actual sexual activity. Local Authorities Co-ordinators of Regulatory Services, which That Mr. Andrew Dismore, Mike Gapes, Rob Marris, represents local authorities on this matter, and the Mr. Virendra Sharma, Mr. Edward Timpson, John Austin, BBFC both support my Bill’s minor amendments to Ms Karen Buck, Clive Efford, Mr. John Whittingdale, section 2 of the VRA in order to broaden the criteria Judy Mallaber and Keith Vaz present the Bill. that determine when a video work loses its exemption. Mr. Andrew Dismore accordingly presented the Such amendments would enable law enforcement agencies Bill. to prosecute the supply of video works that are currently exempted, to protect children from potentially harmful Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on media content. Friday 26 February and to be printed (Bill 45). 563 12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 564

Personal Care at Home Bill The Prime Minister announced the policy under discussion in his address to the Labour party conference, [Relevant documents: The uncorrected transcripts of oral where it was cleared with only 20 minutes to spare. The evidence taken before the Health Committee on 3 December policy goes utterly against the grain of the Government’s 2009 and 7 January 2010, on Social care, HC 22-iii Green Paper on social care, not least because it is being and iv.] funded from general taxation. The impact assessment Considered in Committee on costings covers only two and a half years, because the Government know that the expense will sky-rocket [SIR ALAN HASELHURST in the Chair] after that. It is perhaps some small consolation that the Government are behaving like a Government who may The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): not be in office in the next Parliament. In view of the selection of amendments to clause 1—the only substantive clause—I am not minded to allow a Nothing attests to the politics of the measure more debate on clause stand part. That is open to reconsideration than the fact that we are discussing it in a Committee of if there is any great gap in the discussion. I have tried to the whole House—a procedure normally limited to select a wide range of amendments and I hope that that excessively controversial legislation, particularly legislation will enable all the main issues to be debated. that is in free-vote territory. The Government are rushing the Bill through to prevent the fullest possible scrutiny. Clause 1 We will do our utmost to get through all the groups of amendments today, but I fear that that will be at the FREE PROVISION OF PERSONAL CARE AT HOME expense of the necessary wider scrutiny of the underlying issues of the policy behind the Bill. Another small 3.48 pm consolation is that the fiercest attacks—certainly if the Mr. Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): I beg to record to date is correct—will come from the Government’s move amendment 9, page 1, line 7, leave out from ‘in’ to own side when the Bill continues its pell-mell progress end of line 8 and insert— in the other place. ‘(i) extra care housing; The Secretary of State has said that he wants to (ii) sheltered accommodation; create an “unstoppable momentum” for reform of social (iii) warden controlled accommodation; care. This piecemeal measure, which affects around (iv) care home without nursing; 270,000 people—not even 5 per cent. of social care (v) care home with nursing.’. users—has already put a spanner in the works of the Green Paper process, preventing the full publication of The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to the costings, Ministers claim. Making the Bill work will discuss amendment 10, page 1, line 8, at end insert— put a spanner in the whole process of reform which, I ‘(2A) After subsection (4) insert— fear, is the social care legacy the Secretary of State is “(4A) In subsection (4) “care home”— aiming to leave. That comes on top of the point of (a) in relation to England and Wales, has the same meaning order that I just raised with Mr. Speaker, prior to you, as in the Care Standards Act 2000 (c. 14), and Sir Alan, taking the Chair for the Committee of the (b) in relation to Northern Ireland, means a residential whole House. The impact assessment was prepared in a care home as defined by Article 10 of the Health and way that has not stood the test of time—even the weeks Personal Social Services (Quality, Improvement and since the publication of the Bill. Regulation) (Northern Ireland) Order 2003 (S.I. 2003/431 Amendment 9 would prevent care from being provided (N.I. 9)) or a nursing home as defined by Article 11 of that Order.”’. free of charge for more than six weeks to someone in any of the named institutions. It is deliberately a probing Mr. O’Brien: The background to this Bill is the fact amendment, so that we can get to the bottom of the that social care provision is currently means and needs- matter in the glare of the fullest scrutiny on the Floor of tested. The needs test places an individual in one of four the House. I confess that we have had only smoke and categories—critical, substantial, moderate or low. The mirrors from the Government on the matter. mean test assesses assets. If someone has more than Amendment 10 simply defines a care home. The £23,000, including property, they are liable for the full Northern Ireland proposal is not relevant, but why has cost of their care. Those who have more than £14,000 the Minister gone for the convoluted phrase, are liable for some of the cost. After the assessment of needs, and if someone is below the means threshold, the “the provision of personal care to a person living in accommodation that an establishment provides to the person together with the council will agree a care plan with them. For those in care” the critical or substantial groups, that may include entry to residential care; otherwise, care will be provided in rather than using a statutory definition that is already in the domestic setting. Free personal care will be targeted force? at critical needs only through regulations to be passed on the back of this Bill. Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): I am I hope that that was a useful scene-setter, because we grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way at this should be under no illusion about what is happening in early stage in his speech. Somebody living in “extra the Chamber today. The Secretary of State has said, in care” accommodation—one of the categories that his relation to this group of amendments and the Bill—it is amendment would exclude—is by definition living in effectively a one-clause Bill, because its substantive their own home and able to organise care services operation is in only one clause—that he wants to make separately from the tenure of their own home. Even for social care one of the top three election messages. He the purposes of probing, what possible justification can did not say “priorities”; he used the word “messages”. there be for proposing to exclude “extra care”? 565 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 566

Mr. O’Brien: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman Mr. Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): Do not the recognises that amendment 9 is a probing amendment. two interventions that my hon. Friend has just taken Quite genuinely, it probes the Government on the difficulty illustrate a rather broader point than the narrow definitional of their definition of home and the answer to the point? The effect of his amendment 9 has been to draw question what is a home. I hope he bears with me, the Committee’s attention to those who are excluded because we will discuss the matter in some detail in from the category of people who benefit from the Prime relation to an amendment on transitional arrangements—I Minister’s election pledge. Should we not focus on why am sure he will immediately understand the connection one group of people benefits from that pledge and why between those and “extra care”. The reason why “extra another does not? Those interventions illustrate the care” is particularly relevant is that the Government injustice of the new anomaly that, effectively, the Bill have chosen not to pick up the definition that already will create. exists in statute, which was the point I was making when he helpfully intervened. Mr. O’Brien: I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend, whose expertise and experience in this area are I cannot remember where the hon. Gentleman was in matched by none in the House and few outside it. We his ministerial career at the time of the Care Standards know the provenance of the Government’s proposals as Act 2000; he might not at that stage have reached the set forth in the Bill—we know that it was a rushed job, Health team. Section 3 of the 2000 Act, passed by this with only a 20-minute clearance time between decision Government, defines care homes thus: and announcement at the Labour party conference—but “For the purposes of this Act, an establishment is a care home even putting that to one side, he is quite right that it is if it provides accommodation, together with nursing or personal vital to consider who is to be included. That question care, for any of the following persons.” warrants proper scrutiny, because the fact that some They include: people will be included means, by whatever definition is “persons who are or have been ill…persons who have or have had used, that the rest are excluded, and that will cause a mental disorder…persons who are disabled or infirm…persons who are or have been dependent on alcohol or drugs.” potential injustice. However, an establishment is not a care home if it is My right hon. Friend will find that in our discussions on later amendments, although I am conscious of how “a hospital…an independent clinic; or…a children’s home…or if it is of a description excepted by regulations.” difficult it will be to remain in order, because things are so tightly drawn, not least the selection of amendments. There is therefore already something in legislation that That has been extremely constrained by the deliberately could have been helpfully used for the purposes of tight drafting by the Government of the money resolution, describing what is meant in the Bill by being in one’s to try to exclude discussion on the much wider processes home or not in one’s home. I hope that the hon. promised in the Green Paper and suggested by others, Gentleman will understand that the Government rightly who have made some extremely interesting and sensible need to be probed on that issue, because it will have a proposals in considering the reform of whole social major effect on whether people qualify for the help that care, rather than one small aspect of it, relative to the it is intended they should receive. Free personal care at overall demand. I suspect that my right hon. Friend’s home will be of significant interest to those who qualify concerns will be most clearly addressed when we come for it and those who do not. to an important discussion on compliance—how we Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) ensure retained compliance with the European convention (Lab): Just to be helpful, I want to continue the discussion on human rights and the ability of the Secretary of about extra care housing, which is referred to by State to issue the certificate under the Human Rights amendment 9. The explanatory notes for the Bill specifically Act 1998, as stated on the front of the Bill. I very much say that extra care housing qualifies under the new hope that my right hon. Friend will have the opportunity arrangements that the Government want to put in to look at that aspect when we reach that point. place. I am therefore bewildered that the hon. Gentleman should propose in his amendment to exclude extra care 4pm housing, because it can be the individual’s home. I am Building on what my right hon. Friend has just listening with interest to his definition of residential helpfully mentioned, the Bill attempts to cut out residents care, but we also need to clarify what is meant by a of care homes from eligibility for free care. Last year, person’s own home, and the explanatory notes include a 50,000 people—yes, fortunate people, but also hard-working reference to extra care housing. people who have done the right thing in investing, perhaps through a mortgage, in their own homes—had Mr. O’Brien: Given the way in which the amendments to sell their homes to pay for their long-term care, have been selected and the Chairman’s strictures at the notwithstanding the fact that some sales did not occur outset of consideration, I am conscious that, to stay in until after people had died. That applied under a system order in our debate on amendment 9, I shall have to that is available, but not often taken up, concerning postpone a more detailed discussion about extra care whether people sell at the time they enter care or, until our debate about transitional arrangements, which indeed, when they leave it—under the home protection is where it will feature most strongly. I hope that the scheme or whatever. hon. Lady will bear with me, because the issue warrants discussion. However, as she will recognise, amendment 9 Dr. Ladyman: I want to ensure that the hon. Gentleman is a genuinely probing attempt to elucidate from the is not inadvertently misleading the Committee, as he Minister, we hope, how we can get a much clearer and, has said—in his opening comments—that the means more importantly, more secure definition of those who assessment for care includes people’s savings and their are likely to be eligible. After all, that is what will matter property. That is not the case with this Bill, because it most to the people whom we are talking about, who are deals with people living in their own home, and the the most in need and, often, the most vulnerable. value of their own home is excluded from the means test 567 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 568

[Dr. Ladyman] it has thrown a spanner in the works of the process of examining social care as a whole. That means taking in deciding eligibility for care. The value of one’s home account of those who own their homes as well as those becomes a matter for the means test only when people who do not, and those who have assets as well as those are going to leave their own home and go into residential who have none. It means taking account of very different accommodation. levels of care need, and of problems relating to the interrelationship between health and social care. Many Mr. O’Brien: I am grateful. The hon. Gentleman is Members have reflected their constituents’ concerns in quite right that the words we use in this place matter referring to efforts to persuade the NHS and social care greatly, but I think that when he checks the record he providers to be a little more flexible at the margins in will find that in my introductory remarks I used the order to prevent the terrible difficulties that people word “assets”rather than saying “their own home”—quite experience in trying to gain access to appropriate care deliberately, because of the distinction that he has rightly and support. pointed out. The question of one’s own home becomes I wonder why the Minister could not at least relevant only at the time when one is being adjudged by consider—we invited him to do so on a number of proper assessment criteria as needing to leave that home occasions—presenting this Bill in tandem with a measure in order to go permanently—or where it is expected to similar to our home protection scheme. It would have be permanent—into a residential care or other home been fine for him to claim authorship for it if he had setting. As we go through these definitional issues, it is wished. That would have dealt with the difficulties important to recognise that these are real situations confronted both by homes and by those receiving care often involving vulnerable people in emergency situations. in them, as well as by those receiving care in a different Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) setting. Is the Minister satisfied that what I hope he will (Lab): I have the feeling that we may have more time accept is the somewhat clunky drafting of subsection than the hon. Gentleman thinks; I cannot recall a (2) is strong enough to prevent a legal challenge? clause being given a whole day for consideration, but we On Second Reading, we drew attention to the dangerous will make the most of the time we have. The hon. impact that the subsection could have on residential Gentleman is putting a quite serious amendment before care supply. If people are given an incentive to invest in the Committee, as it ranges from “extra care housing” extra care at the expense of residential care, that could all the way through to “care home without nursing” and distort provision. There is also another issue of more “care home with nursing”. If we were to endorse his immediate concern. I shall exaggerate it for the sake of amendment, what would be the implications, particularly the argument, but I hope the Minister will accept what I financially, for local authorities? say in the spirit in which it is meant. The whole point of scrutinising legislation is to ensure that a Minister has Mr. O’Brien: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman no defence if he subsequently says that the consequences has been listening—well, he has obviously been listening, of that legislation were unintended. If at this point I but I hope that he heard my saying that this was a describe the problems and mischief that the drafting probing amendment, so the Committee will not have allows, and if those problems and mischief indeed come the opportunity to endorse it. As I said, it is deliberately to pass, it will be wholly legitimate for me to say, “No, intended to probe the Government’s intentions on who Minister, I warned you, and it was therefore entirely should be included, as well as who should be excluded, intended for this to go wrong”, and the Minister will as my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood have no defence. (Mr. Dorrell) said. With great respect to the doubtless When a care home owner wakes up on the day that very thorough briefing prepared by Labour’s backroom the Bill is passed and seeks to outsource provision to a people, it would be helpful—particularly given that all company that he or she wholly owns, will it still constitute the questions relate to the same issue—if it were recognised care and accommodation provided by “one establishment”? that tabling a probing amendment does not necessarily What, in fact, is the legal definition of “establishment”? invite Members to pass it. The amendment was tabled Can the Minister confirm the possibility of a loophole as a probing amendment and it was designed to elucidate in the legislation? He has confirmed to me in a written information from the Government. That is precisely the answer that official Opposition’s job. “It is open to any residential care home to reshape their I have already mentioned that the real debate on the service”.—[Official Report, 8 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 281W.] issue will take place when we reach the amendment Will he also tell us the potential cost of the exploitation dealing with transitional arrangements, so I am keen of such a loophole to the taxpayer? What if 100 per not to get deflected by being forced to answer a question cent. of those in care homes with critical care needs that really requires an answer from the Government. It became eligible for free personal care? I would have is thus for me to ask the Minister whether he is happy hoped that if the Minister could not answer that question with the drafting of provisions intended to cut out now he might write to me, but he has already said that residents of care homes altogether. Are there no grey he is not prepared even to do that. areas or any difficult marginal issues? Is the Bill drafted The legislation was drafted in haste on the basis of a in such a way and is the money resolution so tightly back-of-the-envelope impact assessment. The Minister drafted as to make it explicit that people who have done has already confessed in writing that that impact assessment the right thing could none the less be automatically was wrong and needs to be corrected. It consists almost excluded because they own their own homes? entirely of estimates. Given the mess that the Labour Is the Minister happy to put this issue on the backburner, party has made of our public finances, it is more since the Bill has thwarted the Green Paper’s aim? The important than ever for the Committee to be informed Minister has asserted outside the House that all this is of the potential liabilities of the taxpayer should there consonant with the Green Paper process. On the contrary, be loopholes in the Bill. 569 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 570

Dr. Ladyman: I can probably find common cause Mr. Dorrell: Is the hon. Gentleman not missing the with the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) in point? We all agree that the desirable developments certain respects. I understand his desire to probe the being debated represent the direction of travel that we Government and secure greater clarity. As was observed should be encouraging. However, given the artificial by the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), divide in such services that the Government are creating, a former Secretary of State, it is plain that at some point my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) the Government will have to go further. I see no moral was seeking to establish on which side those listed in the justification for excluding a group of people with fairly amendment will fall. serious care needs from Government help, whether they are in their own homes or in residential accommodation. Dr. Ladyman: I understand the purpose of the probing At some point in the near future, we will require a amendment, but I would be less worried had the shadow personal care not at home Bill to address that need. Secretary of State not shown on Second Reading what to my mind was a vague understanding of what extra I might part company from the hon. Member for care housing is all about. He seemed to misunderstand Eddisbury on this point: he and his party have proposed completely the function and nature of extra care the idea of a home protection system, under which, for accommodation. I became doubly worried when I read a fee, the totality of a person’s residential costs will be amendment 9 and saw that once again the Opposition met. I believe that that would create a strange precedent, were seeking to list it as one type of accommodation because for the first time an individual in this country that should perhaps be excluded from free personal would not be responsible for providing their own board care. and lodging. It has always been a principle that we are all responsible for providing our own board and lodging. I was reassured to hear the hon. Member for Eddisbury Even if we have to pay for it out of benefits, that is still say that this is a probing amendment and that he did taken into account. The Opposition’s solution to the not intend to exclude extra care from the provisions. I problem would go against that principle. look forward to engaging with him later in the debate about transitional arrangements when perhaps we can In probing the matter before us, the hon. Gentleman explore the matter a little more, and I encourage my has set running some hares that perhaps need not be set hon. Friend the Minister, when he responds to the running. I am particularly concerned about the fact amendment, to provide the clarity that the Opposition that he is attempting to exclude extra care housing, are seeking about the types of accommodation in which because I believe that it is a model for the provision of one would be eligible, under the Bill, for free personal care for older people in the future. Indeed, the huge care, and to reaffirm the Government’s support for majority of older people tell us they would aspire to extra care accommodation. If that is his response to the such an arrangement were they to develop a care need amendment, I hope that later in the day we might hear because it means that they could live in their own an acknowledgement from the Opposition that they accommodation. also understand the importance of extra care, and that they, too, will support it in their future policy. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the Department of Health website, he will find a clear definition of extra care housing, not least in the guidance for a competition 4.15 pm in which developers were invited to bid for an £80 million Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): Although fund to build extra care accommodation. One of the I am pleased that we are having the Committee stage of key elements of the definition is that the individual lives a Bill on social care, I must begin by saying that the in their own home. They might have bought their extra Liberal Democrats, too, have real concerns about the care accommodation or be living in it as a tenant, but timing and process in respect of this Bill. The Bill has they will have security of tenure; they will have self-contained one clause and covers less than two sides of A4 paper. facilities so that they can cook and have access to their The way that it was announced was regrettable; it was own bathroom and sanitary facilities; they will have announced not to the House, but to the Labour party their own front door which they can close to the world if conference. It is also only one piece of the jigsaw in they so wish, and they will be able to arrange their care terms of the great social care crisis. It was announced needs themselves. mid-Green Paper consultation and pre the White Paper The current system of means-testing people has the that is supposed to be published in a few years, and added advantage that, given that the accommodation came with a clearly inadequate impact assessment. will be the person’s own home, the value of that home Regardless of what the policy is, this is, as Lord Lipsey cannot be taken into account in the means test. The said, person might be looking to protect some of their savings, “a very bad way to do policy”. and that is a good way of preserving equity and passing Turning to the amendments, it is very important that it on to children—that might be important to them. I we start with accurate definitions, not only of what is a believe passionately, therefore, that extra care housing is care home, but of what we mean by personal care. I a model that we need to promote. I believe that the regret that the amendments that were selected do not Government have accepted that, and until we started include one that probes what we mean by personal care. debating the Personal Care at Home Bill and amendments An understanding of that definition is even more to it, I always thought that the Opposition wanted to fundamental than what we mean by people living in promote it as well. However, in the light of Second their own homes, or care homes. I draw the House’s Reading and—on the face of it—amendment 9, I am attention to the detailed and interesting definition of now seriously worried about whether they understand personal care suggested by Help the Aged and Age the nature of extra care housing and its importance in Concern, and I regret that we will not get a chance to the future. debate that. 571 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 572

[Greg Mulholland] Mr. Dorrell: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) on his amendment, and We must also look at the experience in Scotland—at not because I think that he is seriously suggesting that it the situation that has developed there arising from a should be included in the Bill—he has made it explicitly lack of clarity about what is meant by personal care. clear that that is not his intention. He intends to focus This Bill presented us with a great opportunity to look the Committee’s attention on the large group of people again at, and clarify, what we mean by personal care, who are defined out of, or excluded from, the category but that opportunity has been missed. of beneficiaries of the Prime Minister’s pledge; as I said in my intervention, these are the people who are excluded Dr. Ladyman: The definition of personal care is already from benefiting from the pledge. very thoroughly covered in existing legislation, which is Of course, across the House, we all acknowledge that why it does not need to be in this legislation, and why this long-standing aspect of public policy has not been the hon. Gentleman’s criticism of the Chair for not satisfactory. It was the former Prime Minister who, choosing an amendment on that is rather unfair. soon after the 1997 election, made it clear that payment for social care needed to be the subject of rigorous and Greg Mulholland: That is the hon. Gentleman’s opinion, profound examination. That is not the purpose of this and he is— amendment; it is an attempt to define clearly the large group of people who are excluded from benefiting from The Chairman: Order. The hon. Member for South this Prime Minister’s pledge, rather than focusing attention Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) should not presume a degree of on the relatively small number who will benefit from it. censoriousness on the part of the Chair, which the The reason for focusing on the people who are excluded occupant of the Chair had not leapt to make clear. So I is to remind the Committee of the very much larger think the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg group of people who remain, as they have since 1997, Mulholland) has got away with it. suffering from a system of payment for social care that Members from across the House acknowledge to be Greg Mulholland: I thank you for that, Sir Alan. The inadequate. hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) is entitled to his opinion, but Help the Aged and Age Concern are Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): The right hon. equally entitled to theirs, and I know who I would listen Gentleman is right to point out the large number of to first and foremost when discussing policy of this people who are excluded from this Bill, but this goes nature. further than that, does it not? The imposition of the Turning to the two amendments of the hon. Member duty in respect of the small group of people who will be for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien), I share the concern that included within the terms of the provision could well there is insufficient clarification of what is meant. The adversely affect all those who are excluded, particularly right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) has those who are currently benefiting from care provided put his finger on the key point: what is crucial to by local authorities on a discretionary basis—they could consider is who is excluded by the Bill. It touches only a well see their care cut back. tiny number of the people who are affected by the problems of the social care crisis, which has been getting Mr. Dorrell: The hon. Gentleman is entirely right, worse for many years. because of course the cost of even this limited pledge is In terms of the amendments, however, I have some significant in public expenditure terms and the Government concerns about the definition offered. Concerns have have made it crystal clear that no additional money will rightly been expressed about what is meant by extra be provided to local authorities to allow them to meet care housing, but we must also consider the meaning of the additional burdens that this pledge imposes on “sheltered accommodation” and “warden controlled them. Thus, it must be assumed that somebody, somewhere accommodation”, which are mentioned in the list in else, who benefits from local government expenditure—as amendment 9. What do we mean by “sheltered he says, it is likely to be other people who benefit from accommodation”? Is there an absolute definition of social service expenditure—will pay for this pledge from that? I suggest that there probably is not—there certainly the Prime Minister. is not from a legislative point of view. Is it not possible As a result of the amendment tabled by my hon. for someone to buy and own or, indeed, to rent what is Friend the Member for Eddisbury, I wish to focus on clearly their own home in which they live but for it to be the implications of creating this distinction between the subject to some oversight from an organisation and small group of people who will benefit because they thus fall under the category of “sheltered accommodation”? receive “personal care at home” and the much larger We are in danger of entering a minefield here, so we group who will still have to pay for personal care under must be clear on this issue. the old rules. What are the implications of creating that As the hon. Member for Eddisbury made clear, this is new distinction? I suggest that there are three such a probing amendment, so I just ask the Minister to give implications on which the Committee should focus. the Committee clarity. He must show that the Bill and The first is the short-term implication. A group of the Government are clear about what is meant by people who change their care arrangements according people who are “at home” and need to receive this to their requirements will suddenly find themselves accommodation. They must make it clear that there is taking decisions based on a major cost implication that no possibility, in respect of sheltered accommodation, ought to be taken based on their care need. There will extra care housing or warden controlled accommodation, be two categories: those who are at home, who get all of people who are clearly living in their own home—in their personal care free; and those who are defined as a way that any normal person would recognise—falling out of the “at home” category, who will still have to pay outside the remit of this Bill. for their personal care according to the old rules. It 573 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 574 therefore matters hugely who is “at home” and who is to pay relatives to give care, where will the dividing line not “at home”, and the amendment tabled by my hon. be drawn, given that we are creating a very powerful Friend the Member for Eddisbury is an attempt to incentive to people to change their behaviour? define precisely who is not “at home”. Norman Lamb: The right hon. Gentleman makes a The former Minister, the hon. Member for South very good point about the danger of a partial solution Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), reacted to my hon. Friend’s changing behaviour and having perverse consequences, amendment by saying, “Oh, these people who receive but does he not agree that the Conservative proposal extra care ought to benefit from the pledge.” Perhaps carries the same risk in that the pledge only relates to they ought to benefit from the pledge, but if they do, the providing for the cost, through insurance, of care in cost will go up immeasurably from the £500-odd million residential homes? That is also a partial solution that that the Government say that it will already cost. My would influence people’s decisions. hon. Friend is drawing attention to the fact that the much larger group of people who do not receive personal 4.30 pm care “at home”will be the losers from this prime ministerial election pledge. Mr. Dorrell: The difference is that my party is committed to moving quickly to the development of a total solution. That is the first implication: where there is currently a We have made it clear, and it has been clear in our logical development of care provision, in future there thinking right back to my days as the Secretary of State, will be two categories and an anomaly created by the that we cannot do that by landing the bill, in either move from one category to the other. That is the first small or large stages, on the taxpayer. The Government and immediate consequence. The second consequence, also took that view until the summer; indeed, until a which is, in my view, much more malign, is that if this day in October the Government took the view that this policy were to endure for any length of time, people was an unaffordable bill for the taxpayer. That conclusion would change their behaviour in order to ensure that must underlie sensible policy in this area, but it is under they fell on the right side of the line to benefit from the challenge as a result of the Prime Minister’s pledge. pledge rather than on the wrong side of it. Let me pose a few questions to the House. If personal Mr. Stephen O’Brien: May I take my right hon. care at home is free, but personal care delivered not at Friend back to the difficulties that he rightly outlined home is not free, is somebody allowed to move their about the definitional point and how things might home in order to ensure that their personal arrangements change? Earlier, I gave an example about how an owner move from one side of the line to the other? Members of of accommodation might be able to change things by this House have learned over the past 12 months the having two companies. I am reminded that on Second dangers of moving their house from one place to another Reading the hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) in order to qualify under rules under which one did not helpfully described as extra care accommodation a specific previously qualify. If we create a group of people for type of accommodation in which people might buy into whom personal care is free and say that it is available a retirement village and be able to move around within only to those who are at home, we should not be it as tenants and leaseholders. It is precisely because surprised if people who receive personal care and do such arrangements can be changed both by the owners not qualify immediately change their arrangements in and, as has been pointed out, by the tenants that we are order to ensure that they qualify. The definition of what having to raise these doubts through this probing constitutes “at home”—of who is included and who is amendment. excluded—will be the subject of constant challenge as Mr. Dorrell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his people change their arrangements to ensure that they comments, and I agree with him. What is clearly illustrated qualify, although they originally did not. here is that any attempt to write into the statute book I was reading the definition that the Government crude rules that create one category of free personal have offered of people who are excluded from the care and another of paid personal care will be fraught benefit of the pledge. Let me repeat it to the House. with difficulty, particularly when one is trying to do it at People are excluded if there is 20 minutes’ notice, on the run, on the way to the “the provision of personal care to a person living in accommodation podium at the Labour party conference. I agree with that an establishment provides to the person together with the Lord Lipsey that that is one way not to make policy. care”. I have a final question to put to the Minister. If I provide accommodation and personal care to my parents in my grannexe, will that be included or excluded? Dr. Ladyman: Will the right hon. Gentleman give Is a grannexe where I or my family provide personal way? care to my elderly relative included or excluded? Is my grannexe an “establishment” according to the definition Mr. Dorrell: I shall look forward to putting my question in this statute? It is unclear to me. to the Minister, but I shall give way one more time. Dr. Ladyman: The right hon. Gentleman is making Mr. Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): My right hon. Friend some important points, but will he reconsider his statement makes a very important point. He also raises the issue that this is a crude way of achieving the objective? The of whether the provision of personal care by a relative is measure simply removes the six-week limitation on free likely to be acceptable, as it is in the Netherlands and care from another piece of legislation that has been some other countries within Europe, or not. operating very successfully for some years. It is therefore anything but crude. The precedents and definitions have Mr. Dorrell: Absolutely. If, as I profoundly hope all been set, and all that the clause does is say that given all the pressures on public expenditure, we are not instead of the free care being limited to six weeks, it can going to get into the business of using taxpayer resources be provided for much longer. 575 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 576

Mr. Dorrell: With respect, I think that the hon. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Gentleman is being disingenuous. My recollection is Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell). I listened to what the hon. that the six-week limitation was introduced specifically Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) said, and he to prevent policy from migrating in this direction, while has participated in this debate for a long time, but the still allowing the discharge of patients from hospital change in the six-week rule does make quite substantial when they should no longer be in there. It was introduced differences to the overall pattern of care. to facilitate orderly discharge out of the NHS, rather If Opposition Members are cynical about the proposal than as precursor to the development of free personal that may be because one of the first things that the care in the social care sector. Government did after 1997 was to set up a royal commission that recommended free personal care, but that got dropped. Dr. Ladyman: I certainly was not trying to be Now here we are at the fag end of a Parliament and we disingenuous. The legislation that is being amended get this rushed Bill, with questionable costings, which says that the Government can tell local authorities in will fall after the election, and big implications for many certain circumstances to provide people’s care for free in of our constituents. Although amendments 9 and 10 may their own home for a period of six weeks. The measure not be perfect, they at least allow us the opportunity to simply takes the six-week limit away. The rules and raise important questions. precedents that define the system are already established, so this is actually quite a neat and elegant way of The Government themselves produced the Green achieving the aim quickly. Paper, and I thought that it was a good effort at looking at the whole system comprehensively.The Select Committee Mr. Dorrell: I genuinely listen to what the hon. Gentleman on Health is looking at personal care, so it is a pity that has to say, and I recognise that he has knowledge in this we are rushing ahead with this option without taking a area, but I think that he is wrong on this point. He says comprehensive look at things. When one rushes ahead that the measure simply removes a bureaucratic rule, one creates cliff edges and biases in a system that but doing so changes the nature of the rule on free benefit some and exclude others. As I think the hon. personal care at home. The six-week rule was designed Gentleman said, the implication is that, subject to the to facilitate the discharge of patients at the end of their funding arrangements, we will have to add another bit NHS care in NHS hospitals. It was not designed as a to the Bill to make it more comprehensive in the future. means of funding social care for anything other than Definitions are very important, and I am still not sure the shortest terms in that context. that we have got to the bottom of that argument. I have spoken about people changing their behaviour Costings are also very important, and the Government and so forth, but they will not do that in anything other are using the “magic pot of gold” argument that I have than the most convenient way to ensure that they qualify heard time and time again. The efficiency savings that for the six-week limit. Social care can go on for years, or they propose will be made at the expense of local even decades in some cases, so all the points that I have government, which is going to have a difficult time over made about changing behaviour and the pattern of the next few years. Amendments 9 and 10 give us the provision apply in a way that they do not in the context opportunity to say a few words about that. of the six-week rule. When the Minister responds, I hope that he can My final question to the Minister is very important. answer some of the very important questions that have Under the direct payments legislation, individual been raised and give some reassurance that the Government beneficiaries of social care can convert their entitlement have thought through the Bill’s implications rather more to social care into a direct payment, but will that apply comprehensively than seems to be the case at first to personal care provided in the context of this pledge? glance. However, I fear that perverse incentives are now If so, that is another extremely powerful incentive for going to be built into the system. If local authorities people to change their behaviour in order to qualify have to provide more money but do not have the budget under the rules. to do so, my concern is that they will deal with the changes by spreading what they have rather more thinly. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil That could mean that although 380,000 people will Hope): Of course it will. benefit from the legislation, if the funding is not sufficiently robust, they will not benefit to the extent expected. Mr. Dorrell: The Minister says that of course it will, but I challenge the Government on that. If the direct Norman Lamb: May I pursue briefly the point raised payments legislation does apply to care provided on this by the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) basis, I simply do not believe that, beyond the first few with regard to direct payments? The Minister, from a months, the cost of the scheme could be limited to sedentary position, said that of course the Bill provided anywhere near the £530-odd million that the Government for the support to be given by way of a direct payment, have estimated for the scheme as a whole. but when we sought to table an amendment to clarify that, we were told that it was outside the money resolution, Mr. Syms: I am generally in favour of one-clause and that that was not what the Bill provided for, because Bills, and most of us have sat in Committees considering it provided for care at home. Bills of 200 or 300 clauses. Nevertheless, such a short If that is the case, the Bill will pursue policy in a very Bill means that trying to find out its implications presents different direction from that which the Government a problem, and that Opposition Front-Bench Members have followed up till now, and the outcome will be the must show ingenuity in engendering a debate that allows perverse situation that someone receiving care under information to be put on the record. That information means-tested arrangements will be encouraged to receive is needed so that the people who provide and receive the their care by way of a direct payment, giving them care can learn a little more. maximum flexibility in how they chose to spend that 577 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 578 money, whereas someone receiving care as an entitlement or would only new patients with medical conditions by virtue of the Bill will be entitled only to receive care developing who required help be covered by the Act, as imposed on them, in a sense, by the local authority. it would then be? It is self-evidently important for the Minister to clarify Phil Hope: First, it is social care, not medical care, whether the Bill provides for the provision of support that is being provided. The hon. Gentleman’s phraseology by way of a direct payment. If it does not, it is clear that suggested that he was talking about medical care, and I an amendment needs to be tabled by the Government if want to make it clear that this is about personal care for it is beyond the scope of Opposition parties to do so. people whose need is most critical and who need help Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): May I emphasise, with toileting, and so on. This is about intimate personal as other hon. Members have done, that it is vital that care. whatever pressures are put on local government, it is 4.45 pm given the full funding by central Government to pay for A number of guidelines and regulations are out for the measures, and that that funding is not expected to consultation, and they will need to be enacted when the come from existing budgets, or it will not be viable and Bill receives Royal Assent. People will qualify from will not happen? 1 October this year. The process by which that will Phil Hope: I am pleased to be taking the Bill through happen will also be the subject of guidance, to ensure a its Committee stage on the Floor of the House. In smooth transition as people who are currently in their addressing the amendments, I should like to place my own home and who qualify under the appropriate criteria remarks in a slightly wider context. start to qualify for free personal care. The provisions apply not only to new entrants; people who are currently The hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg living in their own home and paying for personal care Mulholland) said that the Bill was very small, but I can because they failed the means test will now start to get tell him that it will have a very big impact. As the their care for free. A further 130,000 will receive free Minister of State with responsibility for care services, I reablement or rehabilitation to help them to recover am hugely proud to take the Bill through its Committee their independence after a fall, a bereavement or a stage and Third Reading this evening. The Bill will serious illness. I will say more about that when we provide support and relief to some 400,000 older people discuss the later amendments. with the greatest personal care needs in their own The Bill is based on the simple principle that we must home—people with advancing conditions such as do everything that we can to help people to live as well Parkinson’s, dementia and motor neurone disease—and as they can and for as long as they can in their own 280,000 people who require high levels of intimate home. That is what people tell us they want. This personal care on a day-to-day basis at home will now Government policy has been shared by both parties, at get those services free. least since 1998 when the Griffiths report was produced. As has been remarked, many of those people have Indeed, the right hon. Member for Charnwood faced the burden of paying large amounts of their own (Mr. Dorrell), when he was Secretary of State, supported money—they do not lose their own homes; my hon. the view that we should give as much support as possible Friend the Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) to people in their own home, because that is what they rightly corrected the hon. Member for Eddisbury want. I have listened to his remarks and those of his (Mr. O’Brien) on that—for care as their conditions Front-Bench colleagues today, and I hope that that deteriorate. The Bill will remove that millstone. position has not changed. I hope that all parties in the House will support and respect the wishes of people—young Norman Lamb: Is it not the case, though, that a adults as well as older people—to live in their own significant proportion of those people whom the Minister home. identifies as benefiting already benefit by way of the Amendment 9 would amend section 15(4)(b) of the means-tested system, that the net number will be significantly Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003 so smaller than the number that he cites, and that, as the as specifically to list a number of settings in relation to Government’s own impact analysis demonstrates, the which a six-week restriction on the ability of regulations wealthiest group of pensioners will benefit most? to require provision of personal care for free would Phil Hope: I do not want to stray from the amendments, remain. The hon. Member for Eddisbury described it as but the hon. Gentleman is right to say that a number of a probing amendment, and I understand that, although people who will benefit for the first time are self-funders, I think that Labour Members listened quite carefully to and a number of people who pass the means test and ensure that that was the case and that the Conservatives’ qualify for free personal care will have that free personal position had not changed. care safeguarded as a result of the Bill. That is particularly The list in amendment 9 is entirely inappropriate, as important, given the uncertainties of the future. it includes some settings that are more appropriately described in the way that clause 1(2) describes them, Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford) (Con) rose— and some settings that we would describe as falling within the notion of living at home—such as extra care Phil Hope: I am happy to give way, but I should like housing, sheltered accommodation and warden-controlled to start to address the amendments. accommodation, all of which are listed in the amendment. My hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet spoke Mr. Burns: I am grateful to the Minister for giving from his experience as a Minister in this Department, way. On a point of information, if the Bill were to and from his own professional experience, when he become law and came into effect on 6 April, would described the importance of extra care housing. I very people who are currently self-funding their care qualify, much share his view. I listened carefully to the concern 579 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 580 expressed by the hon. Gentleman that there might be Act 2000, but that is not right in this context because it game-playing among care home owners trying to change includes some exemptions and exceptions and therefore the status of their homes—[Interruption.] That was would not accurately reflect the range of settings that indeed mentioned on Second Reading; if I said this on we want to exclude from free personal care. We think Second Reading, I am certainly happy to put it on the that our approach is the right way forward. record again. In response to the hon. Member for North Norfolk It is for the Care Quality Commission to register care (Norman Lamb), yes, direct payments would be a method homes and extra care housing. Only care homes that of providing such free personal care if someone chose genuinely change the nature of the care they provide to to go down that road. This is an important point about create extra care housing would be registered as such. the very nature of the transformation of the care system. As my hon. Friend said, we do not need to write all that Increasingly, we want people to have more choice and into the Bill, because we have a regulator to ensure that more control over their care budgets, and direct payments the kind of behaviour described by the hon. Gentleman are one way of doing that. Personal budgets, which are would not happen. The right hon. Gentleman gave the a development of that approach, are being rolled out example of granny annexes. People living in such across the country, with more than 100,000 individuals accommodation would also qualify for free personal now receiving their care in that way, giving them choice care because they are not in residential care accommodation. and control. This is free care for the people in the most The Bill does not list all types of accommodation. Its need. If they choose to have it through a direct payment provisions are straightforward. Apart from the one or as a personal budget, that is absolutely the right circumstance of adult placements—we will discuss an thing to do. It will be up to local authorities to develop amendment on that later—we have excluded anybody and implement this approach—that is what our extra in a residential care home from qualifying for free £500 million for the transforming social care budget is personal care. Everybody else is included by default all about. Some authorities are getting there quicker because they are not excluded. That is how the Bill is than others. I hope that the measure will provide an designed. It is an elegant way—my hon. Friend described incentive for some of those authorities to start to develop it as such—of achieving the policy goal that we want to their services in a way that we, and I hope the whole achieve, which is to provide for and help people with the House, would like them to offer in taking forward their greatest possible needs who are living in their own care provision. homes. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that we have Norman Lamb: I am grateful to the Minister for identified one group but ignored everybody else. The clarifying that narrow point. However, should there not problem with his approach is that it would be a case of be an entitlement for the person to receive the help by saying that we should either do everything or do nothing— way of a direct payment instead of leaving it up to the that we should not introduce this extremely important local authority to decide? measure to help people in the most need in their own homes. Why did we introduce a carers strategy? Why Phil Hope: We will discuss issues to do with local did we introduce a dementia strategy? Why did we authority discretion under subsequent amendments, so introduce a strategy on valuing people with learning I will deal with that question then. difficulties? We did those things because we are building I think that I have answered all hon. Members’ questions. on, improving and raising the quality of care step by I have explained why the Bill is framed as it is and why step. amendments 9 and 10 are inappropriate and unnecessary. The hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) indicated, as I therefore ask the hon. Member for Eddisbury to he did on Second Reading, that he favours the Green withdraw the amendment. Paper. I am delighted that I have a convert from the Conservative party. Indeed, many of his colleagues Mr. Stephen O’Brien: The debate has been extremely praised quite lavishly the Green Paper, which is being helpful and constructive in bringing out precisely what considered with a view to transforming the whole system. the amendments were intended to probe and elucidate. I am proud to be the Minister of State standing at this It has been acknowledged that where the dividing line Dispatch Box leading on the proposal to create a national falls is an issue to consider, and that we need greater care service—how good can it get?—but that does not clarification. It is possible that as the Bill progresses mean that I am going to stand still while I am waiting through its next stages in the other place, their lordships for that to happen; I want change now, as well. Step by may wish to take up some of our questions to get that step, the building blocks towards creating a national clarification, but we have had a good exploration of the care service are being put in place, and this measure is a matter. key part of that. As I said, these are probing amendments. I am glad Amendment 10, as an alternative to the approach that the hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) that we are taking, would insert a definition of “care felt reassured by the way in which I dealt with his home” into the Bill. We regard that as unnecessary. The concerns about whether there is mutual understanding description that the Bill uses in amending section 15(4)(b) on extra care communities and the home settings to of the Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003 which they relate. However, at one point he asserted is that there was a principle that people do not get free “accommodation that an establishment provides to the person board and lodging, as though that were somehow not to together with the care”. be challenged. That is not true either in a hospital We do not propose to change that. The hon. Member setting or in many other settings. We need to be careful for Eddisbury proposes in his probing amendment that about announcing principles as though they were inviolate, we should use the definition in the Care Standards when I am not sure that they stand a true examination. 581 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 582

As was reflected in the comments of my right hon. of his own party below the gangway. He resisted their Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) and calls for taxpayer-funded options for social care, saying others, it is important to recognise that despite some of that it would not be the discussion that has taken place, we must not look “fair across the generations to ask the working age population to at the matter as though it were simply about removing a pay” six-week time limit and not changing any other for care. He continued by saying that circumstances. The hon. Gentleman gave the game away when he talked about certain circumstances, because “it would not be honest or straightforward to give the impression that we can fully fund a care system entirely from general taxation.”— circumstances have changed. The 2003 Act, which the [Official Report, 29 October 2009; Vol. 498, c. 479-81.] Bill is intended to amend, addressed a different mischief that needed remedying—inappropriate bed blocking in We agree, and that is part of the challenge in the Green hospital settings. This Bill is not about that, it is about Paper that we are all considering. However, this Bill doing something to support people in their own homes. proposes, for the class of people outlined in it, to It is not about removing people from one setting but provide an option for care fully funded by taxation. about what they get in another, so the circumstances That is inconsonant, to put it one way, with the direction have changed. It was helpful that the Minister made of the travel in the Green Paper, although some might that clear, but the way in which the matter was discussed call it disingenuous. at other times was not particularly appropriate. We need to be very careful, because the clause does not provide for some kind of simple removal of an element 5pm of a Venn diagram. It is definitional, because it deals The Minister confessed, in a parliamentary answer: with who can qualify. We even heard the Minister try to “It is very important not to conflate the funding for a national explain the understandably complicated matter of how care service with the funding for the Government’s Personal Care on 1 October, if the Bill receives Royal Assent, the at Home Bill. The Green Paper”— system will include both people who currently receive unlike this Bill— some care support, who may have to pay for it or may get it free, and others with different transitional “is about building a sustainable system for the future”.—[Official arrangements. Later amendments will cover that matter. Report, 5 January 2010; Vol. 503, c. 277W.] We all agree with that, but does it mean that the This discussion has helped set us off towards a greater Minister is suggesting that this Bill is not sustainable for understanding of the complications of how the Bill is the future? Does he in fact agree with the point made by drafted and the concept that lies behind it. More my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood importantly, it has helped to ensure that we get as much (Mr. Dorrell) in the debate on the previous group of clarity on the record as we possibly can. I beg to ask amendments that the Bill is a step along a path that may leave to withdraw the amendment. be distinguishable in legal terms, but will certainly be Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. superseded in policy and legislation terms. That is a genuine question, and it is why we have included enabling Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I beg to move amendment 11, powers in amendment 12. page 1, line 10, after ‘apply’, insert— The Minister has also said in a parliamentary answer ‘(a) ’. that the measure in the Bill “was not considered in the Green Paper”— The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to that is a confession— discuss amendment 12, page 1, line 13, at end insert— “because it is a step towards that National Care Service. The ‘(b) to such other arrangements for the provision of Green Paper puts forward fundamental proposals”.—[Official personal care as the Secretary of State may, by Report, 9 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 497W.] regulations, specify.’. If this is not a fundamental proposal, does that mean that the Government plan it only as an interim measure? Mr. O’Brien: Amendments 11 and 12 are intended to The best way for the Government to make earnest on allow secondary legislation to stop the six-week restriction their pledge that this Bill is a step towards the full on free personal care. Amendment 12 is the operative reform of social care would be to make this Bill more amendment, upon which the House may wish to express enabling in terms of additional policy options. One of its opinion depending on what the Government say. I those could be our asset protection scheme, which would flag up the fact that although it is not the lead amendment, involve the option of paying £8,000 at age 65 by those it will be the appropriate one on which to divide if there who have sufficient assets. Those who do not have such is to be a Division. assets would continue to be protected, and those who It is somewhat disingenuous of the Minister to suggest did not take up the option would be in no worse that the provision in question is the direction of travel position than they are today. Those who did take up the of the Green Paper. It is in fact a fully taxpayer-funded option would be entitled to residential care for life, option, which was previously rejected by the Government should it be necessary. Who is to say that similar schemes in explicit terms, not least by the Secretary of State and could not work alongside the Government’s measure in the present Minister, because the working population of domiciliary care? We are not precious about the scheme, this country is shrinking as a proportion of the total and it would provide an opportunity to widen the Bill population. That has been discussed and is widely and bring in a much more comprehensive approach that recognised both in this place and by many experts and would genuinely be consonant with the Green Paper, advisers outside. I refer the Minister to the Secretary of which was welcomed—and urged on the Government—by State’s reply when he was keenly questioned by Members both sides of the House. 583 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 584

Mr. Syms: My hon. Friend makes an important have been a touch of irony in a debate on amendment 12—if point, but one of the problems with providing free Hansard can record irony—because it might have revealed personal care is that it tends to undermine the argument whether the hon. Gentleman was confident that a Labour for a private insurance option, which may have to be Secretary of State would be exercising the powers, or one of a range of options if we are to look after people whether he thought there would be a Conservative in old age. Secretary of State. However, I would not presume to take such powers on behalf of my hon. Friend the Mr. O’Brien: My hon. Friend makes an important Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) if the observation. I do not wish to underestimate the importance electorate decided that he should be Secretary of State. of this issue. We all accept that we face a serious The amendment seeks to test whether the House challenge on this issue, and the question is how we thinks it appropriate that we should be discussing the measure up as policy makers and legislators. The issues matter in a wider context. The hon. Member for Leeds, include access, fairness, quality and appropriateness of North-West (Greg Mulholland), who speaks for the care, both in the home and in a residential setting. It Liberal Democrats, twice mentioned that the extreme also involves major social issues such as the intergenerational tightness of the drafting in the money resolution, which responsibilities that we all have as members of the is deliberate on the part of the Government—but that is working age population for those who are beyond earning how it is—has clearly made the selection of the amendments age or who have never had the capacity to earn or look particularly tight and challenging. Amendment 12 has after themselves because of some form of difficulty or given us the opportunity to at least have a sense of care need. getting that discussion moving. We will decide whether My hon. Friend is entirely right to set the Bill in the the House needs to give it a better airing once we have context of the Green Paper process. We are challenging had our discussion. the fact that it does not sit well with that process, which the Government have already defined. Whether or not Norman Lamb: To pursue the point raised by the we end up with the social insurance model for all hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), does aspects of care need—he mentioned that, but I note he the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) accept did not necessarily advocate it—is part of the discussion that amendment 12 could allow the Secretary of State, and the consultation. I fully accept that the Government whichever party wins the election, to implement wide- have been conducting a consultation and I look forward ranging reform, without this House having any opportunity to their assessment, which will inform us of the context to debate it properly? Does he accept that that would be of today’s discussion, including on amendments 11 inappropriate, and that there should be primary legislation and 12. in the new Parliament to implement fundamental reform? We feel strongly that amendment 12—the operative amendment—gives an opportunity to air the questions Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman fully accepts, I that my hon. Friend asks in the context of the Green think, that although the Secretary of State, in his current Paper process, which is vital. As the Government know, role, has made it clear that, as part of a legacy, or that process has been widely welcomed, even if it has whatever he wishes to claim for it, he seeks an unstoppable come late and been postponed. It follows a series of momentum beyond the next election, our concern is other Green Papers and consultations, but is none the that, strangely enough, the Bill is in danger of not less a step in the right direction. The concern is that the creating that momentum. Indeed, it could do the opposite, Bill does not feel as if it is consonant with the process. because it is not consonant with the whole approach to the reform of social care that we hope the Green Paper Dr. Ladyman: I support the idea behind the hon. process, which so many of us have bought into, will Gentleman’s statement that what we ultimately need is a achieve. comprehensive model for providing social care, and I have made it clear in my remarks on the Bill that more I fully accept that, ultimately, there is only one way finance from people themselves is going to be necessary forward, which is for the country, through its elected if we are to have that. However, will he confirm whether representatives across the House, to seek a genuinely amendment 12 is a probing amendment? My understanding broad consensus. We will never satisfy either those who is that the proposal would give the Secretary of State think there should be a fully taxpayer-funded option or power to introduce such new arrangements by diktat, those who think we should have a complete free-for-all without ever having to come back to the House for a in the private market. The solution lies somewhere proper debate or to discuss a new Bill in future. That between the two. We have had that discussion with seems to me to be an awful lot of power over an awful Government Members. We know that a number of lot of expenditure to put in the hands of a Secretary of them would not go along with what has been proposed, State, even one who is as good as our current Secretary so reaching that point will be a tough challenge. That is of State. why amendment 11 is important in clarifying the intent. However, I will wait to see how the Committee feels Mr. O’Brien: Aside from the enjoyable little tail to about the issue before I make a decision on whether to that question, which I am absolutely sure deserves a job, press the amendment to a vote, because I take seriously I have not confirmed whether amendment 12 is a probing the idea that we need the best and most solid consensus amendment, because I genuinely wanted to test the that we can achieve. opinion of the House. I am not suggesting that I will One thing that I should say—I see that the Minister is therefore press it to a Division; rather, I am seeking to in discussion at the moment—is that it would be helpful test whether there is an opinion in the House that the in building that consensus if there were a genuine way the Bill has been introduced fits well with the willingness on the part of the Government to start some overall direction of travel. I dare say that there could discussions and to invite in those of us who wish to 585 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 586 build that consensus. However, while we remain only in Mr. O’Brien: I do not think for a second that anyone discussion across the Dispatch Box, which is necessarily in the House seeking to develop or implement policy a somewhat scrutinising and adversarial approach, we responsibly or anyone who has any kind of sense of the diminish our chance of achieving a consensus. However, reality of the world in which we live would suggest that that is perhaps the nature of the run-up to the election, anything should be proposed on behalf of our constituents with the tribalism now being displayed. without full funding behind it. That is why leaving it totally to the discretion of the Secretary of State would Mr. Syms: I would like to bring my hon. Friend back be entirely out of order. It is drafted in the way it is to amendment 12, which is excellent. I thought that its because the Secretary of State would not be expected to drafting was intended to engender a debate not about propose anything without coming along not only with what the Government are doing in the Bill, but about an impact assessment—hopefully a considerably better what they are doing in guidance and consultation. We quality one than we have suffered from with this Bill—but do not know whether there will be statutory instruments with a funding base to justify it. or whether they will use the positive or negative procedure. A lot of the detail will be discussed in consultation and 5.15 pm decided after the Bill has been passed. We will therefore To the extent that the hon. Member for Crawley not know the shape of the Bill until we see what comes (Laura Moffatt) is suggesting a carte blanche, I do not forward. Is that not one of the arguments against believe that any legislation could come along on that rushing the Bill? Should we not have the consultation basis. It is appropriate to ensure in Committee that we and then the Bill, rather than the Bill and then the can have the wider contextual debate that we all seek. I consultation? know from previous discussions that the hon. Lady has Mr. O’Brien: My hon. Friend makes an outstandingly been keen to see such a debate on the Green Paper, but good point, and that is precisely why we have been so we are concerned about the limitations of the very concerned about the rushed nature of the Bill. We know process that the Bill is imposing on us. its provenance: we know how its timing came about and how it must have been a hell of a sweat, in a certain Mr. Tom Clarke: The hon. Gentleman has been extremely room at a certain hotel, in a certain month—September— generous in giving way. His point in response to my with a certain Prime Minister. That said, we should hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt) is pause and ensure that we do not lose the many gains one of the most critical to bear in mind this afternoon that we have made in this debate over many years, as my as we Government Members probe amendments tabled right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood has by Opposition Members. The question of funding is observed. It is vital that we should see the Bill in that particularly important, so has the hon. Gentleman consulted context. the shadow Chancellor and his senior Front-Bench colleagues? If so, will he tell us about the funding The whole point of amendment 12 is precisely as my implications and who will bear the cost? hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) described. It is not just the whole context of the Green Paper that is important; there will, of course, be a vital need for Mr. O’Brien: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, guidelines. Indeed, in his response to the first group of partly because what he suggests is relatively flattering. amendments, the Minister talked about the need for Luckily, however, I am enough of a realist to recognise guidelines and so forth. However, the timetable for that, nice as it may feel, it is not the same as being in those guidelines seems to be out of sync. It is my great government when the Opposition’s probing or other hope—I will no doubt repeat this later in our proceedings amendments are probed in turn by Government Members. this afternoon—that the Government will take seriously I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there have, the point that there is a certain technical obligation on of course, been extensive internal discussions, as he them, as well as a moral obligation, to ensure that they would expect, within my party—as I dare say there have get the consultation and guidelines processed, reported been within his party—on how to grapple with this and acted upon, with conclusions recommended as a particular issue. result of that broad, wide-reaching and consensual Those in charge of funding must be included. Why? consultation, before the issue is considered in the other Because, as I said before, there is probably no more place. Without that, there is a grave danger that the Bill predictable issue for the political generation coming will be rushed through both Houses without the benefit down the track than this one. We know it is there; we all of accessing that broader church of opinion, which know it is pretty insuperable, but we have got to find a Government Members have been as keen as I have to solution. None are more challenged than this generation ensure is accessed. of politicians in this House—either this side of the general election or after it when some may be re-elected—in Laura Moffatt (Crawley) (Lab): I am listening carefully facing up to this particular challenge. The right hon. to the hon. Gentleman, but is he not trying to have it Gentleman is rightly probing me on why I tabled certain both ways? I would love to move directly to a National amendments, but I am very conscious that we have had Care Service, as I hope many who have taken an interest a series of discussions and open inquiries, not least the in the Bill would too. However, I respect and understand one led by my right hon. Friend the Member for the need for us to think carefully about the financial Charnwood shortly after my right hon. Friend the implications. Is he not giving the impression, particularly Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) became the leader with amendment 12, of an open book for what could be of the Conservative party. It looked into these very achieved? By tabling that amendment, is he not giving issues, so my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood the impression that something more could be delivered, has been able to advise us accordingly. That has led, in when he knows that we are all under serious financial turn, to many discussions among and across many constraints? shadow departmental briefs. 587 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 588

[Mr. Stephen O’Brien] Mr. O’Brien: I am happy to put on record that some of us had been working on it for about three years. We I hope that that gives the right hon. Gentleman the were very glad to note that there just happened to be reassurance that he sought—that this matter is taken decent timing for its announcement. extremely seriously, as the issue betokens. If our generation ducks this one, we will be in grave danger. My plea to Dr. Ladyman: I believe the hon. Gentleman; millions the Minister is, as I have said repeatedly from the Front wouldn’t. Bench, that there could be a way to gain a better and As I have said, there is some common ground between more consensual approach, given that we are all in this us. I agree that we need to sweep this measure into a together. At the moment, this has fallen somewhat flat, more comprehensive package. However, the hon. as the Minister has not formally invited me or Liberal Gentleman’s proposed way of doing that is completely Democrat Front-Bench Members to have a consensual irresponsible. It is not just that the Secretary of State chat about these matters. I would be very happy to would be given power to introduce a complete social participate in that, even if it were completely off the care system by diktat. If the hon. Gentleman looks at record, not least because there is a precedent—this the 2003 Act, he will see that regulations which, by relates partly to the amendment—for something along implication, he would allow the Secretary of State to these lines in respect of pensions. There has been a draw up would not even be subject to an affirmative greater degree of consensus on how to find a way vote in Committee. They would be subject to a negative forward on that subject, which was also a challenge for prayer. So not only would the Secretary of State be able us and will be for those coming down the track. It is to introduce a system costing tens of billions of pounds important to place that on the record in the light of the every year without debate on the Floor of the House; he quite proper rejoinder of the right hon. Member for might not even have to take part in a debate in Committee Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr. Clarke), who if the Opposition did not spot his proposal and pray wanted to probe my amendment; whether or not it is a against it. probing amendment has yet to be decided. I assume that the hon. Gentleman had a gleam in his It is important to bear in mind the fact that the Bill eye when he said that he did not know whether amends the Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) amendment 12 was a probing amendment, and that he Act 2003, whose purpose was to deal with what could is, in fact, probing. I hope that my hon. Friend the have been described in legal terms as the mischief of Minister will respond by saying that he agrees with me bed blocking. Section 15 removed the limit at which that this package should ultimately be part of a much care could be provided free of charge. I assume, although more comprehensive reform. it may not be the case, that even if someone joined the social insurance risk pool mentioned by my hon. Friend Greg Mulholland: I do not think that anyone could the Member for Poole—the Government’s Green Paper disagree with what has been said by the hon. Member partnership option, for instance, is still very much under for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) and, indeed, the hon. consideration—that would not count as a charge, in Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) about the need which case the Bill could make such a model possible. for a consensus. All along, much of the concern about Given that Tony Blair promised reform 12 years ago, the Bill has been that it is a partial solution which will would it not be best for us to produce a consensus to help only a small number of people. We can, however, make full reform of social care possible through the disagree on whether that would be a good step forward Bill? The amendment was intended to give us a genuine or unhelpful. There are different views on that. opportunity to consider that question. On amendment 12, however, I too listened to the hon. Member for Eddisbury, and I do not think that any of Several hon. Members rose— us could have disagreed with the vast majority of the The Chairman: Before I call the next speaker, let me sentiments that he expressed, in his usual eloquent, if point out that although there are clearly serious matters rather lengthy, way. Nevertheless, we should consider at the heart of this debate, I have allowed some tolerance his speech in the context of the amendment. It reads: of the wider conceptual debate. However, I am not sure “to such other arrangements for the provision of personal care as that we would be best served by the inclusion of a wider the Secretary of State may, by regulations, specify.” conceptual debate on every group of amendments, and I cannot see how that relates to the sentiments in his I shall be paying attention in that regard. speech. Dr. Ladyman: I think there is some common ground The concern of Liberal Democrat Members is that between the hon. Member for Eddisbury and me. I the Bill is a partial solution and not a part of the agree that this measure must, at some point in the existing consensus. The Bill came in the middle of the future, be swept into a more comprehensive and consensual consultation on the Green Paper, and I even wonder package. I also believe that that comprehensive package whether those involved in the consultation and in drafting must include some sort of asset protection scheme for the Green Paper had any idea that a Bill was coming those who go into residential accommodation, although when it was announced out of the blue by the Prime I do not favour the scheme suggested by the Conservatives. Minister. The Bill came in through the side door, but The hon. Gentleman said that the Bill had been the hon. Gentleman’s amendment would give the Secretary dreamt up by the Prime Minister at short notice and of State the opportunity to bring in anything via the cleared in time for a conference speech. I do not know back door. That would be even more regrettable and whether that is true, but I do know that the Conservatives’ take us further away from achieving a cross-party consensus, response in the shape of their proposed asset protection which is precisely what we need if we are serious about plan was dreamt up in the seven days following the moving the debate forward. If the hon. Gentleman Prime Minister’s speech, in time for their own party presses amendment 12 to a vote, therefore, we will not conference. support it. 589 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 590

Mr. Dorrell: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Mr. Dorrell: Like the right hon. Gentleman, I have a for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) on being the first Minister long memory on these subjects, and I agree with him of the next Conservative Government to propose a that the debate on community care was motivated in Henry VIII clause, seeking powers to create law by large measure by a desire to provide—as the Minister order on a wide range of subjects. He will, of course, be rightly said—a proper package of care to encourage the first of many. Indeed, I suspect that he will propose and enable people to live at home in the community many other such order-making powers in the months rather than in residential contexts. That is what I was and years ahead. I have no doubt that the hon. Member referring to when I said that the House should recognise for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), like me, has proposed that the statutory formula that the Government are similar order-making powers in the past. Were he to now recommending to the House has a very sharp read in detail some of the statutes that he has recommended unintended consequence. We all agree that supporting to the House, he would see that they contain such people to live at home is what we want; everyone agrees powers. that that is the better way of delivering care, and the Oppositions normally resist Henry VIII powers, rather right direction of travel, but it is that care package that than propose them, so I inquire of myself why my hon. is being cash-limited. Friend should have proposed such a wide-ranging order- making power. I have to say that I can see why he has Phil Hope: The right hon. Gentleman says that everybody done it. As the hon. Members for South Thanet and for agrees that providing free personal care for people in Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) recognised, my their own home so that they can live independently is hon. Friend is in some sense responding to the challenge the right direction of travel. Why then does his party’s offered by the Minister, who, in response to the previous Front-Bench team propose a scheme of home protection set of amendments, stressed that the Government consider that acts as a perverse incentive to encourage people to the personal care at home policy an incremental change go into residential care? in the evolution of policy on social care delivery. That Mr. Dorrell: With respect to the Minister, I did not is, I think, the best gloss that can be put on the policy, say that we are in favour of a direction of travel that and I congratulate the Minister on doing it. provides free personal care to people living at home; it is As became clear during discussion of earlier amendments important that I make that clear. What I said was that and debates on the Bill, however, in reality the policy we favour a direction of travel that encourages people, will, if executed, create in the short term a series of clear on a realistic funding basis, to live at home. That point anomalies. My hon. Friend is therefore seeking a power has been made by the Minister and several others in the on behalf of the Secretary of State to create a safety course of this debate. We want a funding basis for social valve allowing precisely the kind of incremental care that encourages people to live at home. development of policy that the Minister said was the The Government, however, are saying, “If you live at Government’s intention. It is important to be clear why home, the taxpayer will pay.” That is great, except that it my hon. Friend’s proposed safety valve will be so important means that the formula for the delivery of social care so quickly, and to understand that we must recognise that we all favour is the one that is cash-limited. Ministers that we are dealing with a set of services for which may not agree with this, but the hon. Member for South demand is growing rapidly. Thanet has said again today—and I whole-heartedly Ironically, the Government are creating a set of agree with him—that the formula for the successful unintended consequences. They are saying that those delivery of social care that meets the underlying demand living at home will receive tax-funded care, whereas at a quality level that we would want to deliver has to those living in residential care will continue to rely on involve a form of co-payment. That element of flexibility co-payment provision. I simply invite the Committee to has to be in the scheme if in the years immediately consider which of those two funding packages is most ahead we are to be able to deliver the quality of social likely to be able to respond to the very fast growing care that we want at affordable cost. demand for these services in the years ahead. Is it the delivery of care at home, which relies on the ability of Dr. Ladyman: I reaffirm again that I agree that a form the Exchequer to pay for it, or the delivery of care in a of co-payment has to be made. I regret that we have had residential context, which relies on a co-payment formula, to come down this road so quickly, because it has not requiring the care user to make a contribution? been possible to get consensus on the form of co-payment. If the Conservative party had at any point during the Green Paper discussions suggested that it would consider 5.30 pm some form of compulsory co-payment as well as the voluntary co-payment schemes in the Green Paper, Mr. Tom Clarke: I am listening very carefully to the there might have been a basis for discussion, but the debate, and my mind keeps going back to any number Conservative party said it would only consider supporting of discussions we have had in the past on community voluntary schemes. On that basis, there can be very little care, such as about the Griffiths report. A consensus likelihood of arriving at a consensus. developed then, part of which was that many people would be encouraged to live independently in their own Mr. Dorrell: As I have said, I have great respect for homes while being properly supported through proper the hon. Gentleman in this area, but I do not understand funding. When, therefore, has the change come in? I ask the logic of what he just said. He says that he believes, that because community care has not been mentioned as I do, that the successful delivery of social care at all this afternoon. Are we going back on that position, requires co-payment, and he then says that agreement or do we accept that many people will reserve the right could not be reached with the Conservative party. I do to live in their homes and should be given support to not know what discussions took place between the do so? Front-Bench teams, but I know that irrespective of 591 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 592

[Mr. Dorrell] step by step. That is the basis of the charge that I set at the Government’s door; it is not that this proposal is whether those discussions were successful, he is using undesirable for the people who will benefit from it—of that as an excuse to justify a formula for the delivery of course it is desirable for them—but it will create a series social care at home that does not rely on co-payment at of perverse consequences and perverse incentives, several all. It contains no element of co-payment; it is fully of which have been mentioned in this debate. I suspect taxpayer-funded, and that is what makes this model that the Minister and his officials have probably thought unsustainable. those through and thought, “Oh goodness, how do we I make the point again, because it is important, that put a gloss on this?” However, nobody in No. 10 has this approach creates a completely perverse incentive. properly thought them through. The hon. Gentleman and I agree that providing the necessary flexibility for a realistic funding package for Dr. Ladyman: I wish to clarify again for the right hon. social care must involve co-payment. In the Government’s Gentleman the point I was trying to make. Because the view of the world—if this Bill is passed—where does Conservative party has drawn a series of red lines that it co-payment apply in the social care context? The answer is not prepared to discuss, according to all its public is only in a residential care context. In other words, the statements, it was clear to the Government that a consensus Government are setting up a formula that will restrain could not be arrived at in anything like the near term. A the ability of people to live at home, because the taxpayer group of people with very serious needs—people with will not be able to afford it, and that will, at the margin, Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s being the primary shift people into residential care, because that is the ones—are struggling at the moment, so as it was clear basis on which the funding formula will work. that we were not going to get agreement on the comprehensive package and the methods of co-payment Norman Lamb: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree to fund it, on which he and I agree, this Bill was that this approach provides not only a perverse incentive, necessary in the short term to address their short-term as he describes, but a central unfairness, in that someone needs,. who has critical needs and who is at home gets their care paid for fully but someone who, through no fault Mr. Dorrell: I invite the hon. Gentleman simply to of their own, has to be cared for in a care home does consider the point that I have just made: what will be not? That is unfair. the consequences of each incremental step that he is inviting us to take? If he agrees with me that the Mr. Dorrell: I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman, consequence of this policy formulation is to create an and I sought to focus on that point in our debate on the incentive in favour of residential care rather than care at earlier group of amendments. By creating this distinction home, for the reasons that I have set out, and if he between personal care delivered at home and personal agrees that in the long run we must provide a funding care delivered in the residential context, we will create a base for social care that includes co-payment, all I cliff edge. As one group will be cash-limited, because would say to him is that if, perchance, there were a the Treasury is extremely cash-constrained and likely to Labour Government after the election—I profoundly become more so, and the other group will be less hope that there is not—and if he were a Minister in it, I cash-limited, we will create a completely perverse incentive would look forward to hearing him make a speech from in the direction of the residential context, not the care- the Dispatch Box that explained to the House why it at-home context. was a good idea to have free personal care ahead of the election whereas after the election that would evolve Mr. Scott: The Select Committee on Health, on which into a system of payment through co-funding for personal I am honoured to serve, is examining this area and care delivered at home. That is the policy that I believe taking evidence. The crux of the matter is that its that he supported until the Prime Minister made his suggestions might be of use to this debate, might provide statement at the Labour party conference, and I believe a way forward for the entire Bill and might answer some that any incoming Labour Government would have to of the questions that my right hon. Friend has rightly revert to it after the election—perhaps even before raised. Does he agree that its suggestions could provide October 2010. some of the answers to these problems that we are debating? Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way before he moves on from his Mr. Dorrell: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend that quite proper riposte to and, to some extent, rebuttal of all the work of the Health Committee and, indeed, of the statement made by the hon. Member for South those who are formulating responses to the Government’s Thanet (Dr. Ladyman). In his earlier intervention, the Green Paper on social care policy development— hon. Gentleman justified the necessity of introducing presumably, that was one of the things that prompted the Bill, notwithstanding his adherence—quite rightly— that Committee to engage in its inquiry—is being pre- along with the rest of us to the process of the Green empted by this proposal. This measure is extremely Paper, suggesting that it was somehow impossible to good news and I understand why the Minister thinks it obtain consensus and that it was all the Conservatives’ is popular among those who will benefit from the care fault. He prayed in aid the idea that there was no that will be provided free. He said in his response to the consensus because we Conservatives were not prepared earlier debate that we cannot wait until we can create a to sign up to compulsory contributions. That has been a perfect world before moving forward, and I agree with concern for us, and we have certainly found a way that. However, when a Government move forward on forward with voluntary contributions. However, the an incremental basis, the Minister has an obligation to Government have not said that they are in favour of recognise the consequences of the incremental stages, compulsory contributions either. On the contrary, they 593 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 594 have said that there is a Green Paper process and that the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Scott) has already they have not come to any kind of conclusion. It is made the point that half of that cost would be unloaded impossible for the hon. Gentleman to assert that any on local authorities with no additional money being consensual discussions have collapsed when there have provided to them. I have talked to local authority not been any such discussions. Moreover, the reason leaders of my acquaintance about this issue. To believe that he prayed in aid was not even proposed by his that they will have sitting around in the next few years Government. the kind of money that will be needed to meet the additional burden that the Government have imposed Mr. Dorrell: I agree with my hon. Friend and repeat on them, and that they will not need additional resources, the point that I made in my earlier response. It is odd to is simply to live in Liberal Democrat land. say, “The Conservatives would not agree with us on a voluntary co-payment basis, so we are going to go to a fully tax-funded model.” I simply do not understand— Mr. Syms: I have no great disagreement with amendment 11. I have thought about it, asked a few Dr. Ladyman rose— friends about it and I am perfectly happy with it. I think that amendment 12, which is a Henry VIII Mr. Dorrell: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman clause, is well drafted. I am not sure whether we fully one more time, but I think that I have given him enough understand the implications of the Bill. We have heard lives on this subject. from the Minister that there will be a sort of big bang Dr. Ladyman: I have been very grateful. I want to put approach and that by this October all care will be free. a point to the right hon. Gentleman on which I think we We have also heard about the financial arrangements can both agree. Yesterday, the Liberal Democrats were for local authorities, and I am not sure how robust they 100 per cent. in favour of free personal care for everybody will be. I suspect that there might well be arguments, and today they appear to be totally opposed to free case law and disagreements on this issue, so it would be personal care for anybody. quite useful to have the ability to amend the legislation— even by regulation, whether by negative or positive Mr. Dorrell: It is worth inviting the House to work procedures—as we do not know how this story will out how long it is since Northern Rock or the Lehman unfold. Brothers collapse, and how long it has taken the penny My right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood to drop in the Liberal Democrat mind that the world (Mr. Dorrell) has set out some of the difficulties regarding has changed. Anyway, it is nice to see that the Liberal definition, and, at some point, the House might need to Democrats are back in sight, probably, of the land of introduce regulations to make the system more workable. reality. They are not there yet, but they are working If we create a cliff edge by saying that care is paid for their passage back. We look forward to welcoming for those who stay at home but not for those who go them there again at some point in the future. into a care home, which means that some in the latter I have talked about the need to put a safety valve into category might have to sell their home, we will be the system, which is why I believe that my hon. Friend creating a pretty big incentive for families to try to keep the Member for Eddisbury took the unusual step for an people out of care homes. Given that the nature of the Opposition spokesman of proposing a Henry VIII clause. debate will change, we need a Henry VIII clause, and We have already touched on one other element to which amendment 12 provides that perfectly well. I want to return, because it is important. It relates to the In terms of public policy, I would be more confident earlier amendment tabled by my hon. Friend. In response about the way that things will unfold if I had more to the definitions of which residential units would qualify confidence in the financial arrangements. I referred for free personal care and which would not, the Government earlier to the potential £250 million to be found from were at pains to say that extra care housing constituted savings. When we get to October, real money coming “home” but that a care home without nursing did not into local authorities will suddenly disappear; they will constitute “home”. One does not have to be a great still have to fund the cost of care, but they might not expert in this area to work out that if there is one have the resources to do so. category of “extra care housing” and another of “care home without nursing”, they will fall on different sides We have not discussed whether there might be a case of the dividing line. The Secretary of State will need a for transitional arrangements, or whether there will be regulation-making power, and what is more he will need enough people to provide services to people in their to use it on a weekly basis, roughly, to keep the definitions own homes. Amendment 12 is therefore important, of those two categories separate in a way that would because it would enable the Secretary of State to return maintain the viability of the policy. to the House with legislation covering new circumstances arising from the changes to home care introduced by this Bill that we cannot predict or fully understand at 5.45 pm present. My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury has tabled the amendment in recognition of the fact that the As was mentioned earlier, the Health Committee is to Government are creating a policy context that will be produce a report in due course that may inform the fraught with anomalies and difficulty. The only way public debate. If amendment 12 is adopted, that report that it could possibly work would be if Ministers had may result in further changes. the power to change the law virtually on a weekly The Government are consulting and may have to basis—I use the phrase again—to prevent pressure from provide guidance. Will that guidance be presented through building in a way that would make the system unsustainable. a statutory instrument, or will it have no statutory That is particularly true given the Government estimate basis? We need to hear how the Minister intends to that the policy will cost £537 million. My hon. Friend proceed. It would be useful if, when he sums up the 595 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 596

[Mr. Syms] out a leaflet with his name on it in my constituency, saying that providing free personal care was an anomaly, debate, he takes the opportunity to set out what and perverse. consultations and guidance the Government are I shall have to check Hansard to make sure that I undertaking. When does he expect the results to be wrote this down correctly, but the hon. Member for reported? We need to be fully aware of the shape of Eddisbury said, “We do not want to encourage a policy things to come. of free personal care for people in their own home. This Amendment 12 is useful, although I agree that is not the direction of travel of Conservative policy.” It Oppositions do not usually propose Henry VIII clauses. is interesting that the amendment has flushed out what However, events may unfold in ways that we do not I think is the true intent behind the Conservative position expect and, as I pray and hope, we may well form the on these matters. Government after the next election. Mr. Dorrell: The Green Paper stated that free personal Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I am grateful to my hon. Friend care was an unaffordable option. Is that still the for giving way. In the light of the contributions made by Government’s position? him and others, and in advance of the Minister’s remarks in reply, it might be helpful for me to confirm that this Phil Hope: We are, of course, seeking to develop our is, in fact, a probing amendment and not one that will proposals for the creation of a national care service. We be forced to a Division. I believe that the amendment are building on the best practice that I know goes on up has led to an extremely helpful discussion, and I hope and down the country. That includes things like greater that what I have just said has changed the tenor of the integration of the health and social care systems or, as debate on this particular group of amendments. we discussed earlier, making sure that people get direct payments, because we believe that personal budgets give Mr. Syms: That is useful information, although I may people more choice in and control over their care. call the vote myself. In developing our thinking for the future White Paper, I think that amendment 12 is useful, not least because we are looking at all the options, just as we did with the it gives the Minister the opportunity to set out what the Green Paper consultation. We will also look at ways to Government are going to do in a little more detail, and take those options forward. because it looks forward from where we are today to the It is true that there are problems with funding the big bang approach in October. It is very important that whole of the care system in full through the tax paid by more information is put in the public domain. The people of a younger age. I have made that point before scheme’s shape and funding must be made clear to local in this House: the hon. Member for Eddisbury has authorities. Its success or failure will not rest on whether repeated my remarks, and I am happy to repeat them Whitehall pulls a lever, but on lots of hard-working again in this debate. people in local authorities around the country being able to support and implement it in the way that the There has been a demographic change in our population. Government intend. Where there used to be four people of working age to one elderly person, over the next few years that will Phil Hope: We have had an interesting debate on this become only two. It will simply not be sustainable to amendment. My hon. Friend the Member for South maintain a system of care provision by taxing those Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) described it as an “open ended people, but we will bring forward our solution to that carte blanche free hand to redesign the whole of the problem when we set out our proposals for a national personal care system by diktat”—what a temptation care service. that possibility offers! It is very strong, but unfortunately In the meantime, I am not prepared to stand by and I am unable to support this probing amendment. see people in their own homes with the highest level of A number of important points were made in the care needs—and people at the critical level need help debate. In moving the amendment, the hon. Member with four activities of daily living—having to run down for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) once again challenged the their savings and drawing on the help of loved ones to extent to which the Bill and its proposals for free pay for the support that they need. personal care for people at home with the greatest care That is why the Bill is important, and I am disappointed needs were congruent with the Government’s thinking that the Opposition do not seem to support what it on developing a national care service. I am absolutely proposes. I am also disappointed that the Liberal Democrats convinced that it is a step along that path, as I said in have decided to drop their pledge to provide free personal the debate on the previous series of amendment. I set care for older people. out then everything that we had done over the past 12 or 18 months to develop and improve this country’s Mr. Dorrell: I am very grateful to the Minister for social care system, and I think that this proposal is giving way. I asked him a very simple question, and I simply another feature of that. listened to his reply extremely carefully. It was a long The amendment would allow a future Conservative reply, but I think that it can be accurately summarised. to introduce changes to the care system, but the remarks It is that the Government still believe that free personal made by the hon. Member for Eddisbury let the cat out care for everyone is unaffordable. of the bag. From what the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) said, it is clear that the Phil Hope: We will have to have that debate when we Conservatives see what the Government are trying to bring forward our proposals for a national care service. do as a perverse incentive and an anomaly. I cannot The questions will be to do with how we take those think why the right hon. Gentleman would want to put proposals forward, and what is a fair, affordable and 597 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 598 simple system for providing better care for people, both and are not eligible, or are living at home and may in their own homes and in residential institutions as qualify for free personal care. So to give the Secretary of well. That is a debate that we will initiate in the near State further regulation-making powers, as described in future, and I am looking forward to having it. amendments 11 and 12, although attractive, is unnecessary. The right hon. Member for Charnwood said that our I therefore ask the hon. Member for Eddisbury to proposals were anomalous and acted as a perverse withdraw his amendment. incentive, but when I challenged him he was unable to defend the home protection scheme that the hon. Member 6pm for Eddisbury proposed. That proposal is a private Mr. Stephen O’Brien: The debate has been useful and insurance scheme which, to protect a person’s home—hence necessary to help elucidate what we are all trying to its name—covers only residential care. The costs are achieve—a much more holistic approach to the reform paid up front, although people need to have £8,000 to of social care. I confirm that, as I made clear in an be able to afford it. It is optional—in other words, not intervention, the amendment was a probing amendment. everyone will take part in it—and partial. I have no I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. doubt that it will exclude people with any underlying health condition, as they would not be able to get such Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. insurance for the price £8,000. The hon. Member for Eddisbury is going to struggle Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I beg to move amendment 13, to sell his home protection scheme, because it would page 1, line 17, leave out merely provide a small amount of support for a minority ‘(including the exercise of a discretion)’. group of wealthy people. If he thinks that that will win him the next general, he has another think coming. The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia Heal): With this we may take the following: amendment 16, Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I wish that the Minister would page 1, line 20, at end insert— not assume anything about other people’s policies without ‘(c) exempt a local authority from providing personal care having studied them. The proposal does not make any free of charge to a person eligible for or in receipt of exclusions for underlying conditions. All that has been continuing care.’. subject to proper actuarial pricing. Amendment 41, page 2, line 9, at end insert— ‘(5A) After subsection (4E) insert— Phil Hope: That is even more intriguing. We are “(4F) The Secretary of State may by regulations authorise a seeing the policy crumble as the hon. Gentleman speaks. local authority to make transitional arrangements for a person There has been talk of consensus, although the hon. moving from or to accommodation that an establishment Member for Eddisbury has spoken about how he has provides to the person together with the care.”’. not been involved in any such discussion. However, it is New clause 5—Portability of care packages— a little tricky to try and build consensus when the ‘The Secretary of State shall make regulations to introduce a Opposition decide to run an underhand and irresponsible standardised assessment process to ensure portability of care campaign on their website suggesting that the Government packages between authorities.’. are intending to cut attendance allowance and disability living allowance for older people. That is simply not Mr. O’Brien: I confirm that amendments 13 and true, yet the Opposition continue to run their campaign. 16 are probing amendments, the former about what the It is a form of politics that generates anxiety, uncertainty discretion in the Bill might entail, and the latter about and fear among older people, and does not fit with the how the policy will work in respect of continuing care party’s claim to be compassionate and progressive. If funding. It is vital to obtain clarification from the they carry on with such scaremongering, the Opposition Government on both issues. I hope the Minister will be will build no consensus with Labour. able to tell me and the rest of the Committee what If amendment 12 is a probing amendment, I do not discretion is referred to in proposed new subsection (4B)(a). understand the impact that it might have on particular On amendment 16, in the last quarter almost 45,000 groups. I have made it clear that the intention underlying people across England were in receipt of continuing the Bill is that people with the highest care needs should care—a number that is likely only to increase. It represents be supported to live at home. I want to make it clear about 10 per cent. of the total number of NHS beds in that we think it is important that adults who are part of the country. What proportion of those would qualify as an adult placement scheme do not miss out on this FACS critical? FACS is shorthand for the fair access to opportunity, so it is important to make it explicit, even care services guidelines published in 2003 to provide if we do not do so with a broad set of regulations that councils with a framework for setting their eligibility the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) would welcome, criteria for adult social care, and thus to lead to fairer that for the purpose of the Bill, adults on an adult and more consistent eligibility decisions across the country. placement scheme, who are often adults with learning The guidelines are being revised in the light of the disabilities who live with another family, are to be Commission for Social Care Inspection report entitled considered as living at home. “Cutting the Cake Fairly” and give the criteria for low, In our opinion that is the only situation that is moderate, substantial and critical categories. The Bill required to be excepted from the six-week restriction on deals only with those with critical assessed need. I the free provision of personal care in accommodation assume that many of those in receipt of continuing care where care is provided as an integral part of that would qualify as FACS critical. If that assumption is accommodation. In other situations, it should be clear right, will not the policy of free personal care seem to that people are living either in accommodation where primary care trusts the perfect opportunity to offload care is provided as an integral part of that accommodation people back on to local authorities? That is important, 599 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 600

[Mr. Stephen O’Brien] presented in the new clause that will have to be addressed, not least because the right hon. Member for Sheffield, particularly as we face such tightened fiscal and financial Hallam (Mr. Clegg), as I understand it from yesterday’s conditions in the coming months and years. Whether announcement, either downgraded or scrapped the the Minister or any of us likes it or not, there will be £2 billion unfunded care guarantee that the Liberal temptations for anybody in charge of a budget to see Democrats announced when he became the leader of where they can offload their responsibilities. his party. Will the Minister also clarify whether the Coughlan Leaving aside the various policy position changes, judgment in the Court of Appeal in July 1999 makes the the serious point about new clause 5 is the postcode NHS specifically, or the state in general, liable for the lottery that continues to exist across the country. Up till funding of care, so long as it is free? The continuing now, the Government were happy to say that that was care funding question points to a wider question of how the price of localism. There is a discomfiture that we are the policy will work across the health and social care all caused by the tension between wanting to give local divide. Could the free personal care fund be rolled up decision-making autonomy and ensuring that that does into a joint budget? not result in unfairness, in the form of postcode lottery Given that we are talking about the crossover between provision. NHS and social care, will the Minister give some clarity Last week the Secretary of State said that there were to the noise that we have been hearing in the Health “limits to localism”. Is he planning to abolish councils, Service Journal about the Secretary of State’s plans to or their powers in the process, as part of his way hand social care over to the NHS in toto, in order—in forward? It can be very disconcerting for people when the words of an “unnamed source”—to the funding that they receive from one local authority is “rip the heart out of Tory councils”? not matched by funding from a new authority that they He seems to have retracted from that position, I am move to. Can the Minister assure the Committee that glad to say, but is now saying: anyone assessed as critical by one authority will be assessed as critical by all other authorities? As I pose “I’d feel very comfortable with primary care trusts increasingly the question, I think that the difficulty is apparent. merging functions with adult services.” The Minister hinted at something along those lines in I am sure that the Minister has studied our proposals response to the previous group of amendments. That is for common standards of assessment of need, which nothing new. Its progress has been hindered so far only would be very helpful. If he wished to adopt that policy, by the Government’s constant reorganisation, as we we would be more than happy to let him do so. The case have argued, of the institutions within our NHS. I am for new clause 5 will be presented by the Liberal Democrats. glad to see that the Secretary of State said last Thursday I urge the Committee to support all the other amendments. in his evidence to the Health Committee: Dr. Ladyman: I am rather sad to hear the hon. “I am an integrationist on health and social care.” Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) saying that this is I look forward to the Minister’s progress reports on a probing amendment, because I am quite attracted to that. the idea of removing discretion from local authorities in Amendment 41 addresses transitional arrangements. this matter. I also have a certain sympathy with the I promised the hon. Member for South Thanet Liberal Democrats’ new clause. If we are going to create (Dr. Ladyman) that we would return to that. Has the a national care service, we shall have to create a common Minister thought about how transition might work, way of assessing people’s needs and a common set of particularly as people will be moving from free care to criteria against which to assess them, as was made clear care for which they are charged? Transition also raises in the Green Paper. the question of what happens if someone ceases to have One aspect of this that none of the Front Benchers critical care need. The Minister has confirmed in written has tackled—the elephant in the room, perhaps—is that answers to my parliamentary questions: we will get genuine portability only if there is agreement “Councils are under a duty to regularly assess”— on a standard level of funding. In other words, someone’s let us leave aside the split infinitive— condition would need to be assessed in the same way “an individual’s needs”, wherever they were, and they would then need to be funded at the same level wherever they were. That and that if no longer critical, would take an awful lot of discretion away from local “they would no longer be eligible for free personal care.”—[Official authorities. Report, 8 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 295W.] This is going to be a difficult matter to tackle, but it We are not talking about individuals who might get a must be tackled when we come to the White Paper. bit better. We are talking primarily, I suspect, about the Although I do not believe that it is appropriate to councils that might get a bit tighter. That is the worry. address these matters in the Bill, I would like to hear my Has the Minister thought through both the pressure on hon. Friend the Minister say that he understands that individuals and the administrative problems for councils we are going to have to work to resolve them. I would that will arise? I hope that in his response he will take like to suggest to him that, as well as having standard the opportunity to spell out the details on the record. assessment criteria for people wherever they live, we New clause 5 was tabled by the Liberal Democrats. might take the step, which I suggested on Second Reading, We look forward to hearing about the portability of of making it compulsory for social care to be delivered their policy positions, given yesterday’s announcement. from an adult care trust, in which the local authority In the light of their wish to reject their pledge of free and the local NHS are made to pool their resources and personal care, how do they regard the funding of portability work together to deliver that level of care. That would against standardised assessment needs? That is the issue go a long way towards resolving the tension between 601 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 602 localism and the need to have a standard package of the near future. I do not think that they are appropriate care everywhere. It would also help to bring NHS for this Bill, but if we reject them today, we must not resources into focus in regard to delivering this care. reject them for ever. Laura Moffatt: Does my hon. Friend envisage such a Greg Mulholland: I wish to speak briefly to new trust working in the way in which some of the very clause 5, which proposes: good, effective children’s trusts are beginning to do? In “The Secretary of State shall make regulations to introduce a them, people from different organisations and parts of standardised assessment process to ensure portability of care the caring professions are really working together for packages between authorities.” the sake of the child. Does he believe that that would That really is as simple as it sounds, but it is fundamentally work in an adult trust? important. I am seeking the Minister’s reassurance that the proposal will be taken seriously, and perhaps looked Dr. Ladyman: Yes, absolutely. There are already good at in the Lords. If that can happen, I will not press it to examples around the country of older people’s trusts a vote. If not, I would be minded to do so. being set up. Torbay is a good example. The purpose of the policy behind the Bill is very I had a conversation today with the Royal College of simple. I have said that it offers only a partial solution, Nursing, which is concerned about how our community but it does guarantee free personal care for those with nurses will be involved in these provisions. I know that critical needs who live in their own home. In that case, that subject is close to the heart of my hon. Friend, as surely someone who has been deemed to qualify under she is a former nurse. If such adult care trusts were set the terms of the policy should not be penalised if they up, community nurses would have a role in monitoring move. People move to be closer to members of their the care provided for people, either in their own homes family, for example. This applies often, but not exclusively, or elsewhere. Those nurses would become more involved to older people, who move in order to get care from in the delivery of care, as well as in providing access to family members or to gain emotional support and the resources of the national health service. They would greater contact. be providing their skills alongside those of social workers I am sure that hon. Members have heard of many from the local authority. cases of people moving to a different area and having to jump through hoop after hoop, simply to receive the Mr. Dorrell: I agree with quite a lot of what the hon. same level of care that they had been receiving before. It Gentleman says about the benefits that can come from is bureaucratic nonsense, as well as a real injustice, integrated trusts. Such trusts can ensure that an integrated when people with real needs are prevented from accessing service is delivered to an individual service user. Does the kind of care that they had been used to, simply he agree, however, that we should guard against believing because they have changed their postcode. It would be that that is the only model that works? There are others quite wrong for people to face that threat, as they might that work equally well elsewhere in the country. Does he if the new clause were not introduced. Again, I ask the also acknowledge the danger of believing that, if something Minister to reassure me that that will not be the case. works well somewhere, all the problems will be solved if People could become marooned in a local authority a Minister simply signs a piece of paper and insists that area, afraid to move closer to their family or some other it should be done like that everywhere? Surely to goodness, support network because they would have to go through the history of the past 30 years must demonstrate that yet another assessment process. that approach does not work. There are also costs associated with such reassessments. 6.15 pm One can understand why a local authority might want to assess every new person moving into its area, but it Dr. Ladyman: The right hon. Gentleman is right: we does not make sense to do so if the assessment processes should have an open mind on what the right model is are as robust as they should be. A local authority going to be as we move forward in these discussions. should be able to accept the assessment or reablement Whatever model or models we choose will have certain process that has already shown that a person qualifies characteristics in common, however. One will have to be for free personal care at home. I firmly believe that we that the local NHS and the local social care services are talking about a very important element of the Bill, work closely together and that they have access to and and I am concerned that this measure may be a flaw in flexibility over each other’s funds. We must not minimise making it work and a restriction on its potential positive the difficulty of achieving that, however. I have said impacts. I urge the Minister at least to reassure me and many times on the Floor of the House and in other the Committee that that will be taken very seriously forums that the only significant area of local government when the Bill goes to the Lords. funding that is not ring-fenced for spending in a particular I am disappointed that the Conservatives, rather way is the money that the Government give to local bafflingly, have chosen not to support the new clause, authorities for adult social care. If we were to ring-fence because it would not involve costs but in fact reduce that funding, we would take away a great deal of the costs at local authority level. If a local authority insisted localism, as we like to call it. We are going to have to on going through an unnecessary assessment process address that issue as well, if we want to tackle this merely because it wanted to keep its own costs down, problem. that would not make sense. The hon. Member for That is beyond the scope of the Bill, and of the Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) chose instead to make rather amendment, however, and I believe that you would leap spurious party political points, which had the whiff of up and bring me to a halt if I went down that road, hypocrisy about them given the criticism that the Minister Mrs. Heal. I shall simply say that I am tempted by some and the Government have received to the effect that this elements of the amendments in this group. They deal is simply about electioneering. Let us at least be a little with matters that we are going to have to face up to in sensible when we are talking about such serious matters. 603 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 604

[Greg Mulholland] Mr. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I want briefly to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, I do not wish to push the new clause to a vote. Chryston and Bellshill (Mr. Clarke) by speaking to new However, can the Minister reassure me that it very clause 5, for which I have some sympathy, in relation to much reflects part of the Government’s thinking and the portability of care packages. that the measures in the Bill will not be undermined but I should like to talk about the extent of the Bill in so will work in the way that he has told us they will? far as local authorities are concerned. Presumably, we are referring to English local authorities, not to Welsh Mr. Tom Clarke: This has been an interesting debate. ones, although the Bill extends to England and to I want, if I may, to focus on the aspects that have dealt Wales. I am slightly troubled about the view that the with the role of local authorities, with particular reference National Care Service that we are rightly discussing will to amendments 13 and 16. be universal throughout the United Kingdom. I would If the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) had not dream of talking about Scotland; however, in terms the same objectives as my hon. Friend the Member for of the Bill’s application to Wales, I am not yet convinced South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), I might even be convinced that there has been sufficient dialogue between Welsh myself by the argument on continuing care, but I have local authorities and the Welsh Assembly Government to say, in all candour, that I am not. What we have about how this might operate. I believe that the Welsh established here today, perhaps not for the first time, is Assembly Government would be very agreeable to the the existence of a big difference between the Conservatives principles of this excellent Bill, and indeed some of its and Labour in terms of how Governments work with details. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister can give local authorities. I cannot envisage a situation in which, me an assurance that proper discussions are taking in the absence of joint planning between local authorities place between Welsh local authorities, the Minister for and the NHS, we can deliver the kind of personal care Health and Social Services in the Welsh Assembly and, that we have all agreed on. indeed, the Welsh Local Government Association about In relation to amendments 13 and 16, I am afraid that the parts of the Bill that impinge on the duties and I must be even more ungenerous to the hon. Member activities of English local authorities. for Eddisbury. Amendment 13 seeks to limit the discretion In relation to the portability of care packages between of local authorities in setting eligibility criteria for free English local authorities, there is a tremendous amount care. The Conservatives frequently condemn direction of movement across the English-Welsh border. Many from Whitehall and extol the virtues of localism and people would find themselves in the same position as if local control, yet they then table amendments to a Bill they were to move from Derbyshire into Lancashire, as that would remove local freedom. I am not at all persuaded opposed to going back and forth into Wales from by that approach. I think that this is an essential argument Gloucestershire or Merseyside. There are genuine cross- about what sort of democracy we want to live in. Given border issues, but also a worry that while benefits are that day after day, week after week, we meet councillors, UK-wide, the detail of local authority involvement in directors of social services and others who have to this package is for England only. implement our decisions, we should be a bit clearer than these amendments suggest about the very important Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I am most grateful to the right role that local authorities play. hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. He is Amendment 16 seeks to exempt local authorities making a very important point that is, to some degree, from providing free personal care for those in a state of covered in amendment 28; if we are fortunate enough to continuing care. If we spell that out, it means, in effect, reach it, he might want to take the opportunity to extended care for a person over 18 to meet physical and explore this a bit further. I endorse some of what he mental health needs that have arisen as a result of says, speaking as a constituency representative with a disability, accident or illness. The amendment is difficult Welsh border, where there are many incidents involving to understand if we take the view that we are to have a people travelling across the River Dee to access some relationship between central Government and those form of health service, continuing care, social care or responsible for delivery. I have never accepted that local acute services. That is causing a pretty big nightmare authorities should see themselves as enablers rather for all those of us concerned. than providers, which the hon. Member for Eddisbury hinted at. There will always be a case for both things on Mr. Murphy: Yes, indeed. Over the past few years, in the part of central Government and on the part of local my ministerial capacity, I have been able to try to government, and that should be recognised. resolve some of those issues, although it is not easy. The amendment would exempt a section of the most I ask my hon. Friend the Minister for an assurance vulnerable people from receiving free personal care at that there is proper dialogue and discussion between the home because they are in receipt of continuing NHS Welsh Assembly Government and Welsh local authorities care. I ask this question: why? I have not heard a with regard to these issues. convincing argument for it. If highly vulnerable people were to be treated in this way, significant costs to pay for Phil Hope: Members have raised a range of issues, care at home would arise. They should be entitled to the and I shall try to deal with them all. Amendment 13 same support as everyone else in that group. The fact would limit the functions that may be imposed on a that they are receiving additional care from other sources local authority through regulations by removing reference such as the NHS should not take away the relevance of to their addressing their problem, having proper assessments, having a greater degree of advocacy than we have “including the exercise of a discretion”. managed to discuss today, and delivering to those who That could severely reduce local authorities’ ability to need it the personal care that I believe is so essential. manage the costs of care. They are best placed to judge 605 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 606 what is appropriate in their own situation, depending The hon. Gentleman talked in passing about a slightly on their clients and the availability of their services. It is different issue of transition—people who qualify for right that functions imposed on local authorities relating free care in their own home but whose situation improves to eligibility for free provision should include the exercise to the extent that they may no longer need it. We believe of discretion, so that they can effectively manage the that it would be unreasonable to continue to provide it. provision of free personal care in their local area. People are regularly assessed as their needs change, and that would apply in the circumstances that he described. 6.30 pm New clause 5 would place a duty on the Secretary of The Bill will enable the Secretary of State to make State to make regulations to introduce a standardised regulations in specific circumstances, constrained by assessment process for free personal care, so that a their having to relate to the provision of free personal centrally standardised process could ensure that care care in certain settings. I draw Members’ attention to packages were portable between different local authorities. the current consultation document on various regulations I hope that I can reassure the hon. Member for Leeds, and guidance. I shall come to that in relation to new North-West (Greg Mulholland) and others who expressed clause 5 in a moment. We need to include in the Bill the support for the idea. We believe that to make free power to ensure that local authorities can properly be personal care fair and simple to understand, it will be given a discretion, which will be specified in regulations. necessary to develop a standardised assessment tool to I urge the Committee not to support amendment 13, assist councils in applying the eligibility criteria fairly, because we need to enable the Secretary of State to which I believe is exactly what the new clause is designed issue appropriate regulations. to achieve. We have already suggested that in our Amendment 16 would enable regulations to exempt consultation document on regulations and guidance. I local authorities from providing free personal care to draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to page 16, which those eligible for or in receipt of continuing care. Continuing describes our intention to develop a standardised assessment care means care provided over an extended period to a tool for that purpose. That will be set out in regulations person aged 18 or over to meet physical or mental and guidance that will accompany the Bill, and we will health needs that have arisen as a result of disability, begin commissioning for such a tool very shortly, so we accident or illness. An individual who needs continuing do not believe it is appropriate to include that level of care may require services from NHS bodies and/or local detail in primary legislation. authorities, and local authorities should also be able to provide free personal care to such people if they qualify Greg Mulholland: That certainly goes some way towards for it. Where personal care is provided at home as part reassuring me, but will the Minister be specific? Once an of a package of continuing care that it falls to the local individual has gone through the standard assessment authority to provide, there is no reason why the local process in one area, will it not need to be done in authority should not be required to provide it free in the another area? That is the key question. same way as personal care that is not provided as part of a package of continuing care. If an individual is Phil Hope: It will be a standardised assessment tool entitled to services as part of NHS continuing health described in regulations and guidance. There will still care, their package of care will be provided solely by the need to be local application of it, but the tool itself will NHS and not by the local authority. be standardised in the way that I believe the new clause It is important that NHS continuing care and describes. That is what we are consulting on now through free personal care are recognised as different ways of the consultation document. I hope that that reassures delivering health and social care. In all cases in which it the hon. Gentleman that we understand the need that appears to a primary care trust that there may be a need he describes. for NHS continuing health care, the PCT has a duty to That is a slightly different point from the one about take reasonable steps to ensure that an assessment of the fair access to care criteria, which the hon. Member eligibility is carried out. I hope that that directly addresses for Eddisbury mentioned. We have just completed the concern of the hon. Member for Eddisbury consultation on fair access guidance, because there was (Mr. O’Brien). concern that the level of local interpretation was such On the Coughlan case, the position was confirmed in that unacceptable differences between areas were being directions issued by the Secretary of State after the created. New guidance, based on the consultation that judgment. If a person is assessed for physical and we have put out, will be issued in March and will reduce mental health services under continuing care, that package the level of interpretation—I would describe it as should be provided solely by the NHS when the primary misinterpretation—that was allowing for those differences. need is health-related. I hope that that clarifies the The combination of the revised guidance and the new relationship between the two sets of funding. standardised assessment tool will achieve the outcomes Amendment 41 would provide the Government with that he and the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West regulation-making powers to authorise local authority seek. transitional arrangements when a person moves to or My hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet from care home accommodation. Extending free personal (Dr. Ladyman) took the opportunity provided by the care to care homes to cover transitional arrangements is new clause to make a point about the integration of outside the policy proposals that inform the Bill, which health and social care, and the right hon. Member for is about personal care at home, not care in a care home. Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) echoed that. It is true that we Extending the policy as the amendment suggests would are seeing different styles and different approaches to also substantially increase the costs of providing free that integration in different parts of the country, and personal care beyond the agreed financial envelope. For the right hon. Gentleman was right to suggest that there that reason, we cannot support it. is more than one approach. He made some very good 607 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 608

[Phil Hope] The First Deputy Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 48, page 2, line 4, at points about that. My hon. Friend made a strong bid end insert— for a particular model and described its characteristics, ‘(4DA) The Secretary of State may by regulations restrict the and I will take it as a contribution to our thinking about cost to local authorities of providing personal care to people a national care service. It is not a matter for today, but living at home.’. we will have to address the dilemmas about ring-fencing and so on as we go forward. Mr. O’Brien: The purpose of amendment 15 is to I turn briefly to the questions that my right hon. probe again the £250 million efficiency savings on which Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) asked this Bill depends. Can the Minister tell the Committee about the applicability of the Bill. I can assure him that how he has calculated that figure? We worry that, as the we have conversations at official and ministerial level impact assessment suggests, he has just plucked that about that, although I would distinguish between the figure out of the air. current Green Paper and White Paper developments Amendment 48 would give the Secretary of State and the Bill. The provisions in the Bill are only for flexibility to limit the cost to local authorities. The England, and provisions in relation to Wales will simply question is who is exposed if the Government have got give the Welsh Assembly Government the powers to their calculations wrong? Would it be the Treasury or take forward the proposals that we are making, should local authorities? Should the Exchequer—the national they wish to do so. We will get to amendment 28 later, taxpayer—bear the costs of any mistakes or should it be but I wish to put it on record now that good practice is local taxpayers or even the recipients of care services? exchanged. I understand that the Welsh Assembly The Local Government Association, in its briefing Government are consulting on their own Green Paper, on the Bill, expressed its concern that the Government and we need to ensure that we collaborate and co-operate are not confident about the accuracy of their cost across the nations to get the best possible outcome for estimates. Many councils have already planned their all involved. We must also deal with the problems that savings and budgets for the year that the policy will the hon. Member for Eddisbury mentioned of people start—2010-11. Councillor Ken Thornber, the leader of living very close to the border on either side. Hampshire county council—with West Sussex and Kent, I hope that I have answered all the questions that I it is one of the Conservative-controlled councils giving was asked and, given my replies, I ask hon. Members a good lead on social care—has said that his council not to press their amendments. would have to find between £5 million and £10 million Mr. Stephen O’Brien: This has been a useful group of above present projections. amendments for extracting some helpful information—not This morning, I received a letter from the chair of the least that we should have the result on the FACS problem Learning Disability Coalition, Anthea Cox, which stated: that I mentioned by March. My question on new clause 5 “We remain extremely concerned at what the implications for had nothing to do with any lack of support for it, but local authorities will be in terms of finding £250 million a year concerned our anxiety about the lack of a copper-bottomed from efficiency savings. We are most anxious that these savings do assurance that there was no cost differential. That underlines not mean cuts in services for other needy people. It makes no the importance of the Government noting the concern sense to direct extra funding towards people who have their own significant resources as increasing the numbers of people who will that, as this Bill is rushed through, we do not have even become eligible for personal care funding at the highest level of the draft guidance and regulations that will accompany need will reduce the funding available for those with substantial it. That makes a big difference, because it would aid levels of need. There is considerable anxiety where the cuts may interpretation. be made and the impression that care is being rationed for people I hope that the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, with moderate needs. If an outcome of the Bill is further pressure Chryston and Bellshill (Mr. Clarke) will give the same on social care budgets this could well lead to further rationing.” weight to my words as he does to those of the hon. The blunt truth is that if these savings cannot be found Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman). I am sure from the efficiencies somewhat loftily urged by the that, given the values that the right hon. Gentleman Government—but with no specific plan for achieving a seeks to espouse, he would not seek to discriminate as penny piece of them—they will have to come from cuts to our credibility just because we travel under different or increases in charges. The biggest concern is that political colours. We used the same language, and the increases in charges will fall on those with substantial, important point to note is that the questions that we moderate or low care needs. I asked the Minister in a asked about transitional and continuing care are difficult written question whether charges are likely to be raised. and have not gone away despite the Minister’s fair stab He replied: at answering them. We will have to return to those “Setting charges for social care is a matter for local authorities.”— issues, as they involve relationships with local authorities [Official Report, 10 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 553W.] and whether they have the autonomy to deliver the high That does not provide much clarification. quality services that we all want while at the same time ensuring fairness and predictability. I beg to ask leave to 6.45 pm withdraw the amendment. There are equally serious questions about the £420 million Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. central funding. Thus far, the Minister has confirmed Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I beg to move amendment 15, that he will cut £50 million from public health campaigns, page 1, line 20, at end insert— £60 million from management consultancy, £20 million ‘(4BA) Any local authority not in receipt of funds from central from administrations costs—that is easy to say, but I government equivalent to the full cost of providing personal care wonder whether it will be his Administration—and to people living at home shall not be obliged to provide such £62 million from research into cancer, dementia and care.’. other debilitating diseases. That is worrying given his 609 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 610 recent claim that he is seeking to match our promise to funded home care, and that home care will be seen as a increase research into dementia because of demographic low-cost option compared with residential care. There changes and the profile of disease occurrence. Those is a danger that we would see a further deterioration in savings add up to only £192 million, so I ask the wages in the home care sector as a result of local Minister where the rest will come from. authority pressure. There is already a huge turnover of Can the Minister explain why the summary of the staff in the care home sector—the rate is nearly a impact assessment says that the annual enforcement quarter. That is not good for the kind of care for older cost of the policy is not applicable, but in a written people that we would like. answer to me on 14 December 2009 he said that it is The message from the home care sector—this is from estimated to be £27 million? How did he make that UKHCA’s very good briefing—is simply that estimate? Are the illustrative grant allocations weighted, “there are no more pips to squeak” or are they simply produced according to the probable out of it to meet that kind of shortfall. If the hon. numbers in receipt of care at the critical level? How will Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) pressed amendment 48 the formula work? to a Division, the Liberal Democrats would support What will the Government do to upskill and, if him. We all accept that we are in a difficult time of necessary, grow the work force to meet the demands of recession, but should the Government say, “We expect this measure to bring care to an extra 100,000 people? that large contribution of £250 million from local authorities, That is not strictly a local authority cost, but it will be a but we are not going to expect more”? Simply put, it local cost. The Royal College of Nursing is seems that the sums in the impact assessment cannot be “very concerned about the impact that these reforms will have on relied on, and therefore, if the measure goes through, the nursing workforce.” local authorities can expect it to cost them significantly It claims: more than the Government’s estimate. “These changes will affect the workloads of health visitors, community nurses and specialist nurses—professionals who are Phil Hope: Amendment 15 would effectively exclude already overstretched. The community nurse workforce, in particular, local authorities from the duty to provide free personal is ageing, with many due to retire in the next 10 years. With only care to people living at home on the ground of a lack of 10 months until these measures come into force the RCN is concerned that there may simply not be sufficient numbers of central funds. That cannot be acceptable. Local authorities properly trained social care and nursing staff to deliver the have a duty to meet the eligible needs of their clients. commitment to free personal care in the Bill.” They may take their available funds into account when Does the Minister plan the substantial investment in deciding the level of resources allocated to social care community nursing that will be necessary if these changes for adults, but they may not refuse to meet a person’s are to be successful? Has he found a source for the eligible needs on financial grounds. funding required? It is true that, currently, councils may charge for non-residential services. When doing so, they should Greg Mulholland: In many ways these amendments employ a means test to help them determine the charges go to the heart of the Bill and its core problems. The to be recovered. However, it is right that the provision Prime Minister announced the policy at the Labour of personal care to those with the highest needs living at party conference—we all have our views on why it was home, which will enable them to continue living at announced at that time and in that way. The Government home, should be exempt from such charges. It is also announced the shiny, new policy and then said that they right that local councils play their part in the provision would fund only part of it, with the rest of the cost of personal care to those living at home with very high falling on local authorities that are already obliged to needs as a way of supporting their local communities. I find huge efficiency savings—3 per cent. this year, rising hope that alongside the measures in the Bill, councils to 4 per cent. next year. That is unacceptable, especially continue to develop their universally available preventive given how this policy was introduced. It is supposed to services for those in their local communities. Such services be implemented from October this year, but most councils offer local authorities the chance to invest in prevention have already set their budgets for 2010-11. All the and reablement now to prevent higher care costs in savings that they have identified have already been future. earmarked. I draw Members’ attention to “Use of Resources in The impact assessment has been roundly criticised, Adult Social Care”, a comprehensive assessment of the but the phrase that strikes most fear into those concerned ways that local councils make best use of those resources, about this area of policy is “inherent uncertainty”, which the Department published in October 2009. It enables which is used about the costs of the implementation of a comparison between councils on their performance this Bill. Simply to proceed on that basis, and to give an regarding how they go about using their resources. open-ended commitment to local authorities, which is Councils can look at a number of examples of excellent precisely what the Bill will do, is entirely unacceptable. practice, and find ways to deliver higher quality services If the Government want to press forward with that at a lower cost. I highly recommend the document. policy, they are entitled to do so and to justify that. Indeed, hon. Members might want to sit down and However, surely they should at least restrict the total discuss it with their local authorities to ensure that the contribution that must be made by local authorities, so best practice we see in certain parts of the country is that they can budget sensibly, as the Government rightly repeated in others, and indeed across the whole country. suggest they must. An integral part of the Bill is the proposed offer of There are other implications. The UK Home Care reablement. That is a package of intensive support Association has raised concerns that the measure will measures to help somebody to become more independent put a downward pressure on prices paid to independent and to continue to live in their own home. As the sector providers, which provide 81 per cent. of publically document to which I referred and others tell us, the 611 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 612

[Phil Hope] costings and funding assessments are robust. I therefore ask the hon. Member for Eddisbury to withdraw the development of reablement services is already under amendment. way in many areas. We are providing some £420 million Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I am very glad that the Minister of funding in the first year of implementation, to help felt able to seek to rebut the criticisms of his calculations councils both expand that best practice and meet the and workings, not least on the impact assessment, by costs of providing free personal care to those who are simply stating them at the Dispatch Box. That is precisely eligible. what I was able to do about the various highly spurious I should like to place on record my rebuttal of the fictions and assertions that he used to criticise the work of fiction on Department of Health research Conservatives’ home protection scheme. We are equal funding that the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) now that we have corrected one another. repeated at the Dispatch Box a moment or two ago. Let Clearly, the amendments were probing. I am sorry me assure him and the Committee that cancer and that the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg dementia funding will not be affected in the way he Mulholland) feels that we should press amendment 48 described. We are providing more funding than ever for to a Division, and I am grateful that he indicated that he health research—a £1 billion budget is ring-fenced for would have supported us had we done so, but there is a research. We are committed to this: we are not cutting risk that that would be irresponsible, because the cost funding for cancer research to fund free personal care, implications of the amendment are unclear, and we as we have made clear. Indeed, our research budget has must all operate under very severe constraints in the doubled since 1997. current conditions. Our social care proposals will be funded in part by 7pm making efficiency savings on Department budgets that Most importantly was the Minister’s placing on record are outside the ring-fenced NHS research and development the absence of a diminution of funds for research. That budget. Those efficiencies will therefore not affect vital statement will be looked at carefully by a number of front-line projects in areas such as cancer and dementia. organisations that have been in touch with us about The research budget that funds the National Institute such matters. He will be aware that that has been an for Health Research and the Department’s policy research issue. It is important that people should have the confidence programme will increase to more than £1 billion in of knowing that we can match our research effort, and 2010-2011. I hope I have put our position clearly on the the sustainability of that effort, to the profile of disease record. and demographics that we can see coming down the Amendment 48 would allow the Secretary of State to track, rather than looking at things on a purely historical make regulations to put a cap on the amount of personal basis. We fully support the increase in the efforts being care that local authorities may be required to provide to made, which we advocated well in advance of the people living at home. Although local authorities can Government’s decision to increase the funding for, and use cost ceilings as a guide when deciding on the best the emphasis on, dementia research for instance. The and most cost effective way to meet a person’s care costings discussion has been helpful. On that basis, I needs, they have a duty to meet those needs regardless can confirm that our amendments were probing of costs, and they cannot use such cost ceilings rigidly. amendments, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the As such, the amendment would be inappropriate—it amendment. would enable the Secretary of State to make regulations Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. that would impose a blanket requirement on local authorities to restrict their provision of vital personal Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I beg to move amendment 31, care services to people living at home to a particular page 1, line 20, at end insert— amount, which could result in unmet needs. ‘(4BA) The Secretary of State shall report annually to Parliament the compatibility of any new regulations and guidance relating to Let me be clear on the accusations about the impact the provision of personal care to a person living at home with the assessment and the robustness of our figures. We have European Convention on Human Rights.’. not underestimated any hourly rates for buying the care: we are using the figure of £15.75 per hour at The First Deputy Chairman: With this it will be 2011-12 prices, which is well within the expected costs. convenient to discuss the following: amendment 27, In addition, we have not underestimated the number of page 2, line 16, at end insert— hours of care needed, as some have alleged: we have ‘(6A) The Secretary of State shall report annually to used the average number of hours based on Personal Parliament— Social Services Research Unit modelling for people (a) the costs of delivering personal care at home in that with highest needs—that is to fund the personal care year; element of an individual, not all the services for those (b) the estimated costs of delivering personal care at home who meet the criteria. We are now consulting on three in future years.’. possible approaches to a distribution formula, which Amendment 45, page 2, line 16, at end insert— will make allocations as fair as possible. Some authorities ‘(6A) The Secretary of State shall report annually to might have higher costs, but others, where there are Parliament— fewer people, will fund their own care locally. We propose to review the workings and the costings of the scheme (a) the number of people receiving personal care at home under the terms of the Act in that year in every local within the first 18 to 24 months. authority area in England; I know that things have been said by other organisations (b) the cost of providing personal care at home under the and I am pleased to have had the opportunity to put on terms of the Act in that year in every local authority the record here in the Chamber our view that our area in England.’. 613 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 614

Mr. O’Brien: Amendments 31 and 27 stand in my draft form or actually published, that are so important name, while the Liberal Democrats spokesman, the for the Bill. The fact that we do not have the Joint hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland), Committee’s report in advance, as is normally expected, will no doubt speak to his amendment 45. makes us worried that there could be an attempt being This is an important group of amendments, and the made—I put it no more strongly than that—at a sleight Minister will understand why. Amendment 31 seeks for of hand. a report to be presented to Parliament on the human rights compatibility of the Bill, reflecting the apparently Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend has had the benefit of shaky legal ground that the Government are on. reading some papers that I have not read. Did I hear Amendment 27 seeks a similar report into costs. To him right? Was he really saying that although there is a some degree, my anxiety to press that amendment to a general prohibition on discrimination on the grounds of vote might have been ameliorated by the Minister’s residence in the European convention on human rights, most recent comments, in his response to the previous the Government’s position is that it does not apply to group of amendments, about the fact that there would Governments and that Governments are allowed to be a review of the costs, including the members’ costs exercise such a discretion on the grounds of residence and so forth, at quite a fine-grained level over, I think he that others are not allowed to exercise? said, 18 months or two years. That is obviously important in ensuring fairness in the system, as well as the clarity Mr. O’Brien: I will expand slightly on that point as I that will be needed. proceed, because it is a bit fine-grained and quite technical. However, in essence, his concern is confirmed, I am sad That said, uniquely, the impact assessment looks at to say, in that there is effectively a get-out in such costs for only two and a half years, so if we did not have circumstances, by and behalf of Governments. That is a review within 18 months or two years, we would get highly challengeable, and therefore causes me concern; pretty short shrift. The impact assessments that this hence our amendment, which would require a report. Government have produced with Bills have habitually The Committee would welcome that, given the importance looked at costs over a 10-year period, so to get only two that the whole House attaches to what appears on the and a half years on a policy area covering such obviously front of Bills, namely a certificate, as required under the long-term projections as this one does seems mighty Human Rights Act, from the Secretary of State in unusual, if not a touch opportunistic. The costings are presenting a Bill on First Reading to assure the House therefore somewhat shaky to say the least. I was therefore that it is compliant with the European convention on pleased that the Minister was able to set out at least human rights. This Bill carries such a certificate, from some clarifications, corrections and admissions of error the current Secretary of State. in his letter to the shadow Health Secretary, my hon. Given the numerous legal loopholes in the Bill, the Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire Committee will be interested to know that, according to (Mr. Lansley), on 8 January. the Minister in a parliamentary answer to me, Amendment 45, standing in the name of the Liberal “No external legal advice was sought on this matter.”—[Official Democrats, seeks a report on the numbers. It is amazing Report, 8 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 293W.] to find out that the Government have very little of the We know that the Government are concerned, and not hard data on which their policy is based. just because of the extraordinary length and somewhat On amendment 31, the Bill comes with a lengthy defensive nature of the note in the explanatory justification, by comparison with other Bills, of its memorandum, to which my right hon. Friend might rectitude in the face of the Human Rights Act 1998. Its find it helpful to refer. That concern is now being picked length should alert the House to the Government’s up elsewhere, not least by a commission by which the nimble footwork in the face of their own legislation. Government have set great store—indeed, they brought The Government’s problem is that the Human Rights it into existence precisely to look into such questions. Act prevents discrimination on the basis of residence. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has The Secretary of State and the Minister’s argument is expressed concern that that such discrimination is allowed in certain cases and “this proposal appears to cut across the options set out in the that the Government have the latitude to discriminate Government’s Social Care Green Paper.” in that way. So much for us all being equal under the The commission also says: law. It was that very discrimination that my right hon. “Care must be taken to avoid creating negative trade-offs for Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) sought other people still with considerable needs trying to access care at to highlight in one of his earliest contribution today. I home. For instance, if the proposal actually further reduces the therefore hope that he will have the opportunity that he sums available to help those with less critical needs, but who could was looking for to discuss the issue in our debate on this benefit substantially, including helping them to retain work or group of amendments. remain socially active, it may just serve to increase those whose I am pleased that the Joint Committee on Human needs more rapidly become critical.” Rights is looking into the matter. I hope that that The Equality and Human Rights Commission said that process will be concluded before the Bill goes to the in its briefing that arrived only at lunchtime today. I other place, because it really needs to be. Through you, hope that that is regarded as useful information for the Mrs. Heal, I hope that some urgings might be made in Committee to consider. the right direction, in order to speed up the Joint I hope that the Minister will take this opportunity to Committee’s work, because of the speed with which we confirm that the strength of any defence in a court of are considering the Bill in this House—I dare say that law would depend on the purpose of the Bill. In the the Government will wish to push for the same in the compliance statement, the purpose of the Bill is about other place—and because there is already an absence of “enabling, supporting and encouraging more people to avoid or the accompanying guidelines and regulations, either in delay entering residential accommodation”. 615 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 616

[Mr. Stephen O’Brien] This is not merely a case of lawyers dancing on the head of a pin, which some might argue is the closest to The Government claim that that is a “legitimate aim” angels they will ever get. Professor Malcolm Johnson of for the purposes of the European convention on human the university of Bath has said that for people with high rights. However, according to the impact assessment, needs—those requiring care for more than 30 hours a the purpose of the Bill is about week and typically dementia patients—more complete, “Funding care to those in need at the time of their need,” appropriate and cost-effective care can be delivered in a which is also what the Prime Minister said at his party care home. That is backed up, according to the noble conference. Is that a “legitimate aim” for the purposes Lords Joffe and Lipsey in the other place, not least by of the Human Rights Act? The record will no doubt the Personal Social Services Research Unit—known as show the Minister’s response, which will undoubtedly PSSRU—and the London School of Economics, which be prayed in aid by highly paid human rights lawyers. I is doing the costings for the Government’s social care dare say that he will have taken a lot of advice before models. making his prepared remarks. In a response to me of 8 December, the Minister said The Government’s defence is also that the proposal is that residential care would remain an “appropriate setting” a “proportionate” measure, which goes some way to in which to meet some people’s care needs. If, because of answering my right hon. Friend’s question. What is the financial concerns, the measure keeps people at home legal status of that defence, given that the Bill has such who really ought to be in residential care, it could be a small benefit for costs—if any, as has been accepted—that, seriously detrimental to the mental and physical health according to the impact assessment, it has little overall of many frail people. That is why all the third parties are effect on public sector manpower and public expenditure, arrayed against piecemeal reform in this area. To some and that it helps no more than 5 per cent. of the degree, there has been a certain circularity in the arguments so-called at-risk population? over previous groups of amendments, not least in The Committee will be interested to know that there discussions with the hon. Member for South Thanet is no statutory definition of the word “home”, although (Dr. Ladyman). it appears in a number of statutes, such as the Housing Amendment 27 deals with costings. I repeat my rather Act 1985. That was the Act that legislated for the right lukewarm welcome, given the Minister’s assertions at to buy, a right that has seen people gain property, as the end of the debate on the previous amendment well as the social mobility attached to that, only to have grouping, but it is important to state from the outset to sell it to pay for their long-term care. Part of the and on the record that this care is not free. Someone problem that we are now facing is with precisely that must pay for it: in the short term that will be the generation. The 1985 Act speaks of a person’s “only or beneficiaries of public health campaigns, and, it has principal home”. There have been many cases concerning been argued, the taxpayer and Cancer Research in the the definition of that phrase. I will not take up too long term. We heard the rebuttals that the Minister much of the Committee’s time, but hon. Members sought to pray in aid at the end of the previous grouping, should be aware of the succession of cases on that issue, so we must take them as they were put forward, but which include Crawley Borough Council v.Sawyerin someone somewhere has to pay. The proper phrase that 1988, Ujima Housing Association v. Ansah in 1998, should be used is “free of charge”, but I dare say that Amoah v. Barking and Dagenham in 2001, which will that would spoil the Prime Minister’s election leaflet’s be of interest, and Hammersmith and Fulham v. Clarke already printed slogan. in 2001. As we have said, the Secretary of State has rejected That is an important succession of cases, because taxpayer funding for social care reform, but the Prime many of them link home with the intention of the Minister thinks it is a good idea. It is right to have some resident to occupy it rather than with the occupation public services, like our NHS, that are free of charge, itself—so intent appears to be what the law relies upon. but we should never forget that they are not completely What happens in law if an individual is able to define free. Indeed, it was the current Secretary of State himself the care home in which they reside as their home? The who recommended that patients be given an indicative money resolution, as we know, if not the legislation per receipt for the cost of their care. I am sure that the se, would make provision for the funding of that person’s Minister is more than well aware of the record of when care. By proving that a residential care home is their the Secretary of State said just that when he was a home, could an individual make themselves eligible for Minister. The problem with Labour is that they continue free personal care? to think of taxpayers’ money as Government money. If the Minister does not have a ready answer, he can Increasingly, with their party facing financial as well as, be fairly sure that the courts will seek to provide one in one hopes, electoral bankruptcy, we should be concerned the due light of day if the Bill becomes an Act. I hope that they do not look to taxpayers’ money as some form he will take this opportunity to guarantee that the Bill of re-election fund. will not be open to legal challenge on human rights grounds. Is he confident enough to commit the Government to funding the full costs of any successful legal challenge 7.15 pm on those grounds? Moreover, will he place the internal The Government have estimated the cost of the measure legal advice in the Library, given the germane points as £670 million a year. “Estimated” is the right word. that have now been raised as a result of great concern, Table 2 is dependent on figures drawn from the unpublished not least admitted by the fact that the explanatory modelling for the Green Paper, and the full model memorandum has had to go to such lengths without the remains unpublished. The model used to estimate the decisiveness of conclusion that one would normally flows in and out of residential care has not been published. look for with such an important matter as supporting a The model referred to in paragraphs 5.12, 5.13 and Secretary of State’s certificate on the front of a Bill? annex B of the impact assessment is still under development. 617 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 618

This is also the model on which estimates of savings are underestimated the number of younger adults with predicated. According to paragraph 4.6, the costs of the needs by just 10,000 across the country, it adds £6 million. whole policy are still being modelled and the assumptions If care inflation rises faster than general inflation—at are going to be tested through consultation with 4 per cent., for example—this would add £14 million. stakeholders, which runs until 23 February. We have An arbitrary underestimate of numbers of elderly people already discussed that point about the timetabling. of just 1 per cent. adds an extra £5 million. The assumption The number of individuals who are FACS-critical that the relationship between care need and cost is critical is estimated from a secondary analysis of data linear—in annex A—turns out to be wrong. Again, a from the English Longitudinal Study of Ageing—an 1 per cent. deviation equals £6 million extra. If all these analysis that has not yet been published. Little is known costs were realised, it would cost an extra £49 million a about the number of younger adults who fund their year. If the Bill provides a perverse incentive for care own home care. The figure of 110,000 should be “treated homes to redesign themselves as “extra care”—we have as an estimate”, as I was told in a written answer. had some discussion about that—and that happened, it would add an extra £1 billion to the cost. Even if only The estimate of people for whom reablement is successful 10 per cent. did so, it would still be another £100 million. is based on the experience of a single local authority, West Berkshire. The Minister has told me in another My estimates are, perhaps naturally, pretty conservative. written answer that the Department does not hold The noble Lords Lipsey and Joffe, in their supplementary equivalent data for other councils. Perhaps he would memorandum to the Green Paper, were highly critical like to spell out the reasons why the Government feel of this measure, noting that the costs in Scotland inflated that West Berkshire is representative of Britain as a by 74 per cent.—that was equivalent to an extra £500 million whole. in the first year. Leaving aside the potential costs of the measure, given that people will not receive transport, The estimate of home care spend in annex B of the meals, cleaning, shopping, sitting services and so forth impact assessment is an estimate plucked out of the air, free of charge, will the Minister tell us the likely range for which the Minister has given no justification, while of spend on such services for an individual receiving the estimate of the costs of reablement are also plucked what the Government are now proclaiming as free care? out of the air. When I asked the Minister what the On that basis, I support amendments 31 and 27, and minimum and maximum costs of reablement were, he point out that we may well wish to divide the Committee. replied that he understood that there was a “wide variability”in “different councils”and that the “derivation” of a cost of £1,000 was “clearly stated” in annex B of Mr. Dorrell: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member the impact assessment. What does annex B say? It says: for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) on tabling the amendments “It has been estimated that reablement costs £1000 a person and again on the way in which he spoke to them. Both (roughly 30 hours of reablement at £30 an hour)”, amendments are hugely important. but we have no sources for where either of those figures Amendment 31 deals with the European convention referring to the number 30 came from, so we have to ask on human rights. My hon. Friend should be specifically whether these have just been made up. The costings congratulated on reminding the House that the modern assume that only 10 per cent. of the people who currently world is increasingly one in which the untrammelled go into residential care will instead stay in their home to right of law-makers to make laws that seem like a good receive free personal care. Is that really tenable—that idea on their way to the party conference podium is faced with the choice of paying £25,000 a year in a care qualified by a series of commitments that Governments home, or free care in their own home, only one in 10 will have entered into over the years to ensure that the laws take up the free option? of this country comply with certain basic principles. For our present purpose, the principles are set out in the The Government have persistently refused to extrapolate European convention on human rights. According to their calculations beyond 2012, so we have had to do it one of them—acknowledged in the explanatory notes—it ourselves. Using just a linear projection, the costs will is not consistent with the convention, and therefore double to about £1.2 billion a year by the end of the with good law, to discriminate between individuals on next decade. The excuse given to me in a parliamentary the basis of where they live. First, the Government answers was: acknowledge that that is a principle of good law because “We cannot reasonably make these extrapolations because of it is in the convention, to which this country is a the levels of uncertainty”, signatory. Secondly, the explanatory notes explicitly including recognise that an individual in residential care “the unknown detail of any future national care service and the “might allege that they are being discriminated against in the unknown future economic climate”—[Official Report, 16 December protection of their rights under Article 14 ECHR”. 2009; Vol. 502, c. 1323W.] This is not something dreamt up by my hon. Friend; it He also mentioned an uncertainty that aspects of people’s is something that the Government recognise as a potential behaviour would change as a result of the “introduction weakness in the Bill. of these proposals”, and that the policy would be reviewed after 12 to 18 months to “ensure” that there What is the Government’s defence? According to the are “no perverse incentives”. This is a funny way of explanatory notes, doing policy: to set the hare running and if it all goes “the Department’s view is that the different treatment”— wrong, we will revisit it—a kind of microcosm of the Members should note that it is acknowledged to be last 12 years, one might suggest. different treatment— Such uncertainties are eye-watering. For example, if “of people living at home is not discriminatory. This is because all the people with informal care switch, this adds the policy underlying the different treatment pursues a legitimate £17 million to the cost. If the Government have aim in a proportionate way.” 619 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 620

[Mr. Dorrell] Mr. Dorrell: My right hon. Friend and I are not the only ones who think that there is a serious argument to I do not follow those two sentences. The explanatory be answered. The Government clearly share that view. I notes state that the Department’s view is that the different invite him to assess exhibit A: the explanatory notes, in treatment is not discriminatory, and then state that it is which the Government have devoted two pages of typescript discriminatory, but that the discrimination is justified to explaining why they are safe under this exposure. “because the policy underlying the different treatment pursues a Let me now deal with the second amendment. The legitimate aim in a proportionate way.” two are linked. As I have already pointed, in assessing Having acknowledged that the treatment is discriminatory, the principle of proportionality we must first assess the the Government then say that the discrimination, despite 2,000 people against the 500,000. We must then assess being contrary to the ECHR, is justified because in the 2,000 against the £500 million that are being spent the Department’s view, or more precisely the view of the on meeting this policy objective. Is the Bill proportionate, Prime Minister—I do not believe for a moment that the given that it has assessed 500,000 people against 2,000? policy had its origins in the Department— Is it proportionate when it is recognised that the public “the different treatment pursues a legitimate aim in a proportionate spending cost of the Prime Minister’s commitment to way.” achieving the change in care arrangements for 2,000 Let us consider what is the “legitimate aim”, and people is, according to the Government’s own estimate, whether it is, in truth, proportionate. According to £500 million? paragraph 23 of the explanatory notes: I do not believe that the Government have delivered “The key aim…is to enable, support and encourage more their estimate of cost beyond the two-and-a-half year people to avoid or delay entering residential accommodation.” horizon. As my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury That is set out as the objective of the policy. Let us now pointed out, if we look beyond that horizon, the consider how effective, according to the impact assessment, £500 million will increase geometrically when the that policy will be. According to the assessment, the behavioural consequences of the measure are taken into Government believe that 2,000 of the 277,000 people account. According to Lord Lipsey’s analysis of behavioural affected will switch from residential care to care at change and its financial consequences, the policy will home as a result of a policy whose purpose is result in a public spending cost well north of £1 billion. “to enable, support and encourage more people to avoid or delay I invite the Committee to consider again whether that is entering residential accommodation.” a proportionate way in which to deliver the policy The Government’s proposition is that they want to objective of enabling, supporting and encouraging delay people’s entry into residential care. Their own “more people to avoid or delay entering residential accommodation”, assessment of the effectiveness of that policy is that it given the Government’s belief that 2,000 people will be will stop 2,000 people entering residential care. The affected. question for the Committee and, I suppose, ultimately Enlarging on the spending element, my hon. Friend for the European Court is whether the Department is was right to observe that apart from the principle of right in saying that that is proportionate. article 14 of the ECHR, there is the further question of What the Department is doing is violating rights affordability, value for money and the policy assessment under article 14. The Government cannot argue that of that £1 billion expenditure. We should bear in mind they are not violating those rights. Indeed, they have not just the general financial environment with which acknowledged that they are doing so, but claim that everyone is familiar, but the fact that the context of the that is justified by the policy objective, which they Green Paper that the Government presented last July describe as proportionate. When the policy objective is was correctly recognised to be the demand pressure, measured for its effectiveness, it is shown to involve and therefore the spending pressure, that is already 2,000 people. The rights of all the other people in building in this sector, reflecting rising demand for residential care—there used to be roughly 500,000, and social care, and rising expectations about the standard I would guess that the figure is still the same—are being at which that care will be delivered to the next generation violated. Those people are being discriminated against of elderly people. so that 2,000 people—according to the Government’s own assessment—can be prevented from entering residential 7.30 pm care. That is why my hon. Friend is entirely right to ask for I invite the Committee to reflect on whether the a proper statement of the Bill’s financial consequences defence of the policy set out in the explanatory notes looking beyond the current two-and-a-half-year horizon. stands up. My hon. Friend has already given his assessment We should remember, of course, that the projection by of the two pages in which the Government have set out Derek Wanless did not confine itself to two and a half their position, which might be described as “Methinks years, but looked forward to 2020. If my memory serves they do protest too much.” The Government have me well, he envisaged the cost of social care rising from acknowledged a violation of rights, and have justified it 1.2 to 2 per cent. of GDP over that period—in other on the grounds of the delivery of a specific policy—the words, a marginal, additional cost merely to maintain policy being that 2,000 people’s care arrangements will the current level of social care delivery of 0.8 per cent. be changed, but the rights of 500,000 will be violated so of GDP.My hon. Friend will probably remember better that those 2,000 can benefit from the Government’s than I the current size of GDP, but such a percentage policy change. must equate to about £20 billion—and merely to maintain Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does my the current delivery of social care. right hon. Friend believe there is a serious chance that Despite the words in the Green Paper and the weasel the legislation will be struck down under the provision words of the Minister from the Dispatch Box when he in the European convention? tried to evade the point, the Government are encouraging 621 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 622 people to believe that the underlying rising demand for in England have a larger proportion of people eligible— social care cannot be met on the basis that it all be paid particularly a larger proportion of older people. Where for by the taxpayer. The Government are now half there are certain demographics, and where local authorities promising, however, that the taxpayer will meet the bill, will be particularly burdened, it would be helpful, for which will further constrain our ability to deliver on the those local authorities and Parliament, to have such a rising amount and quality of care that we all want. report. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman intends Dr. Ladyman: I was not going to comment, but I will to press amendments 31 or 27—or both—to a Division, now because the right hon. Gentleman has gone into but we would certainly support amendment 27. I think party political matters. Is it not a little strange for him that our amendment is slightly clearer, but given that he to plea in aid Wanless and talk about the rising costs gets the chance to press his, and we cannot press ours at over 20 years of social care, given that the solution this point, we would support him. proposed by Wanless—a reform of attendance allowance—is the one policy that his Front Bench opposes? Phil Hope: I shall address the issues presented through the amendments. First, let me be clear on amendment 31 Mr. Dorrell: Wanless proposed a variety of different concerning the European convention on human rights. funding mechanisms, but the truth is that neither major The Bill has been deemed compatible with the ECHR. party has leapt to pick up the main Wanless proposal. The memorandum, which is detailed and quite thorough, We had a debate on that, prompted by the Government’s was criticised for being too long, but I think that doing Green Paper, to which I contributed. I said that the it well and thoroughly means that we get it right. debate had come far too late and that we should have Guidance has been sent to the Chair of the Joint had it 10 years ago, as the Prime Minister at the time Committee on Human Rights, and I have the joint had promised. None of that, however, alters the fact memorandum with me. that we are now committed down a policy line that half Hon. Members are right to draw attention to what I promises precisely the policy option that Wanless ruled think is a well-argued case that the grounds for the out, that the Government ruled out, that the hon. different treatment of people living in their own home Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) to his credit are clear. The key thrust of the policy behind the Bill has again ruled out, that my party has ruled out and “is to enable, support and encourage more people to avoid or that even the Liberal Democrats have now ruled out—that delay entering residential accommodation.” it all be loaded on to the taxpayer. That is an unsustainable As such, the policy pursues a legitimate aim and one option. The Government have always recognised that it that goes back across different Governments. The policy is unsustainable, but they are now half promising to will achieve that aim in a proportionate way because it take that route. No wonder they will not publish a is aimed at those with the highest need—the group of projection that shows how much it will cost. people most at risk of having to enter residential accommodation and who therefore have the most to Greg Mulholland: I shall try to keep my comments gain from taking advantage of the provision of free brief because I am conscious that time is running out, personal care in their own homes. The Department’s and I am keen to get through the rest of the amendments view is clear: the policy behind the Bill is not discriminatory. if possible. That is clearly laid out in the measures. I want to speak to Liberal Democrat amendment 45, I might add that we are already seeking to ensure that but I will also comment on amendment 27. The any secondary legislation and guidance is compatible amendments follow on succinctly from the last set of with the convention, and that the regulations that the amendments and relate again to the concerns about the Secretary of State will be empowered to make under the costs of the Bill and the fact that not only is there a real Bill and related guidance will be no different in that lack of faith in the costs set out in the impact assessment— regard. many organisations have expressed that concern—but that there is a potential burden on local authorities. It Mr. Dorrell: Will the Minister confirm that the would be sensible, therefore, to have in the Bill a method Government’s own impact assessment states that the of reporting to Parliament on the costs. number of people who will switch from residential It is a shame that we did not discuss that matter with care—in other words, who reflect the achievement of the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) before, the policy for which the derogation from the ECHR is because the best amendment we could have tabled might effectively being sought—is 2,000? have included subsection (a) and (b) of our amendment 45 and (b)—as subsection (c)—of his amendment 27. Having Phil Hope: The key thrust of the Bill the estimated costs in future years is a good suggestion. “is to enable, support and encourage more people to avoid or It would also be incredibly sensible to have the annual delay entering residential accommodation.” reporting done according to every local authority area, The right hon. Gentleman has rightly described one given the burden placed on local authorities that we particular group of beneficiaries—those people who discussed earlier. might switch. I understand that that is in the impact To get to that stage, it would also be incredibly assessment. However, there is another much wider group helpful—I hope that the Minister accepts that this of people whom we will help to avoid or delay entering suggestion is intended to be helpful—to look at the residential accommodation. number of people claiming free personal care at home under the terms of the Bill. That would be sensible Mr. Dorrell: If that is the argument on which the because it would allow the Government to identify Government will rely, why did they not set it out in the where there is a particular need and which local authorities impact assessment? 623 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 624

Phil Hope: I think that everything has been set out. I Mr. Stephen O’Brien: This is a very important group have set it out here. It has been set out in the memorandum of amendments, because we have been discussing the sent by the Department of Health to the Joint Committee preparedness of the Government—their having a thorough on Human Rights. understanding of the technical detail in advance of laying this before the House. In respect of seeking a Mr. Dorrell: I am grateful to the Minister for his derogation from compliance, under the Human Rights patience. That is exactly my point. It was not set out in Act 1998, to the European convention on human rights, the impact assessment, but was rushed out of the Box the Government have yet to convince us. Therefore, we to give the Minister something to say. If that is the basis will seek to divide the House, not least because of all on which the Government are relying, why was it not in the arguments of reinforcement put forward by my the impact assessment? right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), who is a former Secretary of State, and Phil Hope: Nothing has been rushed out from the also because the Minister did not give a sufficiently Box. One might argue that it could have been, but no robust answer on the cost-benefit question—on the doubt there was confidence in my abilities to answer argument about just 2,000 people benefiting from this, these questions fully and thoroughly by referring directly weighed against any increase in access. to the statement that we put to the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I think I have put that matter to rest. Mr. Tom Clarke: Only at the end of the debate was Amendment 31 calls for an annual report on compatibility, reference made to the cost of the bureaucratic set-up for but that is an unnecessary requirement because the Bill local authorities. Has the hon. Gentleman consulted is compatible. local authorities about the labyrinthine implications of Amendments 27 and 45 would require the Secretary contributing to an annual report? Would the money not of State to report to Parliament annually on the costs of be better spent on the needs we have identified? providing free personal care at home, the estimated costs of that in future years, and the number of people Mr. O’Brien: As the Minister has said, additional who receive personal care in each local area. The hon. data collection of some nature will have to be done. The Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) made a number scale of that will have to be measured against the need of detailed points about the impact assessment. He to make sure it is efficient. However, the blunt truth is repeated a number of the answers I had given to him via that local authorities have been consulting us, and expressing written questions, and he went on to make a series of their anxiety and concern about the drafting of the Bill. interesting extrapolations, because the impact assessment However, we wish to divide the House on amendment 31 is in place for only two and a half years. I want to on human rights convention compliance. The Government reiterate a point I have made to him on the Floor of the have not made a good enough case. It is very important House and in writing: the impact assessment covers that we test the opinion of the House, not least because only the period from October 2010 to the end of 2012-13. all of us as legislators have a fundamental duty to get Estimating beyond that point is problematic because of this specific aspect of the Bill right, and we want to give the uncertainties involved. As I said in respect of previous the many experts in the other place the opportunity to amendments, the proposals in this Bill are a step towards discuss it, and we also want them to see that all the having a fully integrated national care service, at which arguments have been fully aired. The Government have point a different set of assumptions will need to be such a weak case that we need to record our concern. applied, and therefore the hon. Gentleman’s extrapolations That is why I shall press the amendment to a Division. will not apply. Question put, That the amendment be made. I also want to emphasise to the House—the The House divided: Ayes 197, Noes 287. hon. Gentleman acknowledged this in moving the Division No. 34] [7.44 pm amendment—that we have committed to reviewing the implementation of free personal care within the first AYES 12 to 18 months of the policy coming into force. After Afriyie, Adam Burns, Mr. Simon that review, it will be possible to reconsider the predicted Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Burstow, Mr. Paul costs of delivering free personal care and the conditions Alexander, Danny Burt, Lorely for eligibility, if necessary. Amess, Mr. David Butterfill, Sir John If the costings for the first year prove to be accurate, Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Cameron, rh Mr. David it would be an unnecessary burden on local authorities Atkinson, Mr. Peter Campbell, Mr. Gregory for them to have to produce data to enable the Secretary Bacon, Mr. Richard Campbell, rh Sir Menzies of State to report to Parliament annually on this matter. Baker, Norman Carswell, Mr. Douglas Such a report would require a greatly increased volume Baldry, Tony Chope, Mr. Christopher of data collection by local authorities, which I think Barker, Gregory Clappison, Mr. James Baron, Mr. John both Government and Opposition are keen not to impose. Clark, Greg Barrett, John There will obviously need to be some increase in the Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Beith, rh Sir Alan Cox, Mr. Geoffrey amount of data collected by councils in order that the Bellingham, Mr. Henry Crabb, Mr. Stephen delivery of free personal care can be accurately considered, Benyon, Mr. Richard Davies, Mr. Dai and we are currently consulting on what data would be Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, David T.C. needed and how the extra data might best be collected Blunt, Mr. Crispin (Monmouth) so that the extra pressure on local authorities is Bottomley, Peter Davies, Philip minimised—an aspiration that I think both Government Brokenshire, James Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan and Opposition would support. Brooke, Annette Dodds, Mr. Nigel On the basis of my responses, I ask the hon. Gentleman Browne, Mr. Jeremy Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen to withdraw his amendment. Bruce, rh Malcolm Duncan, Alan 625 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 626

Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Mates, rh Mr. Michael Whittingdale, Mr. John Winterton, Ann Evans, Mr. Nigel Maude, rh Mr. Francis Wiggin, Bill Winterton, Sir Nicholas Evennett, Mr. David May, rh Mrs. Theresa Willetts, Mr. David Young, rh Sir George Fabricant, Michael McCrea, Dr. William Williams, Mr. Roger Younger-Ross, Richard Fallon, Mr. Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Wilshire, Mr. David Tellers for the Ayes: Farron, Tim McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Wilson, Mr. Rob James Duddridge and Featherstone, Lynne Mercer, Patrick Wilson, Sammy Jeremy Wright Field, Mr. Mark Miller, Mrs. Maria Foster, Mr. Don Milton, Anne Francois, Mr. Mark Mitchell, Mr. Andrew NOES Fraser, Christopher Moore, Mr. Michael Abbott, Ms Diane Cousins, Jim Gale, Mr. Roger Moss, Mr. Malcolm Ainger, Nick Crausby, Mr. David Garnier, Mr. Edward Mulholland, Greg Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Creagh, Mary Gauke, Mr. David Murrison, Dr. Andrew Allen, Mr. Graham Cryer, Mrs. Ann George, Andrew Neill, Robert Anderson, Mr. David Cummings, John Gibb, Mr. Nick O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Anderson, Janet Cunningham, Mr. Jim Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Ottaway, Richard Atkins, Charlotte Cunningham, Tony Goodman, Mr. Paul Paice, Mr. James Austin, Mr. Ian Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Gray, Mr. James Paterson, Mr. Owen Austin, John David, Mr. Wayne Grayling, Chris Pelling, Mr. Andrew Bailey, Mr. Adrian Davidson, Mr. Ian Green, Damian Penning, Mike Bain, Mr. William Dean, Mrs. Janet Greening, Justine Penrose, John Baird, Vera Denham, rh Mr. John Greenway, Mr. John Prisk, Mr. Mark Balls, rh Ed Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Hammond, Mr. Philip Pritchard, Mark Banks, Gordon Dismore, Mr. Andrew Hammond, Stephen Pugh, Dr. John Barlow, Ms Celia Dobbin, Jim Hancock, Mr. Mike Randall, Mr. John Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dobson, rh Frank Harper, Mr. Mark Redwood, rh Mr. John Battle, rh John Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Harris, Dr. Evan Reid, Mr. Alan Bayley, Hugh Doran, Mr. Frank Harvey, Nick Rennie, Willie Beckett, rh Margaret Dowd, Jim Heald, Mr. Oliver Robathan, Mr. Andrew Begg, Miss Anne Drew, Mr. David Heath, Mr. David Robertson, Mr. Laurence Benn, rh Hilary Durkan, Mark Heathcoat-Amory, rh Rogerson, Dan Benton, Mr. Joe Eagle, Angela Mr. David Rosindell, Andrew Berry, Roger Eagle, Maria Hemming, John Rowen, Paul Betts, Mr. Clive Efford, Clive Hendry, Charles Russell, Bob Blackman, Liz Ellman, Mrs. Louise Hoban, Mr. Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Engel, Natascha Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Scott, Mr. Lee Blears, rh Hazel Ennis, Jeff Hollobone, Mr. Philip Selous, Andrew Blizzard, Mr. Bob Farrelly, Paul Holmes, Paul Shapps, Grant Borrow, Mr. David S. Field, rh Mr. Frank Horam, Mr. John Shepherd, Mr. Richard Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Fisher, Mark Horwood, Martin Simmonds, Mark Brennan, Kevin Flello, Mr. Robert Howarth, Mr. Gerald Simpson, David Brown, Lyn Flint, rh Caroline Howell, John Simpson, Mr. Keith Brown, Mr. Russell Follett, Barbara Hughes, Simon Smith, Chloe Browne, rh Des Foster, Michael Jabez Huhne, Chris Smith, Sir Robert Bryant, Chris (Hastings and Rye) Hunter, Mark Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Buck, Ms Karen Francis, Dr. Hywel Jack, rh Mr. Michael Spicer, Sir Michael Burden, Richard Gapes, Mike Jackson, Mr. Stewart Spink, Bob Burgon, Colin Gardiner, Barry Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Spring, Mr. Richard Burnham, rh Andy George, rh Mr. Bruce Jones, Mr. David Stanley, rh Sir John Butler, Ms Dawn Gerrard, Mr. Neil Kawczynski, Daniel Steen, Mr. Anthony Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Gilroy, Linda Keetch, Mr. Paul Streeter, Mr. Gary Cairns, David Godsiff, Mr. Roger Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Stuart, Mr. Graham Campbell, Mr. Alan Goggins, rh Paul Key, Robert Stunell, Andrew Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Goodman, Helen Kirkbride, Miss Julie Swayne, Mr. Desmond Caton, Mr. Martin Griffith, Nia Knight, rh Mr. Greg Swire, Mr. Hugo Cawsey, Mr. Ian Griffiths, Nigel Lamb, Norman Syms, Mr. Robert Challen, Colin Gwynne, Andrew Lancaster, Mr. Mark Tapsell, Sir Peter Chapman, Ben Hall, Mr. Mike Lansley, Mr. Andrew Taylor, Dr. Richard Clapham, Mr. Michael Hall, Patrick Laws, Mr. David Teather, Sarah Clark, Ms Katy Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Leech, Mr. John Thurso, John Clark, Paul Hanson, rh Mr. David Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Timpson, Mr. Edward Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lewis, Dr. Julian Tredinnick, David Clarke,rhMr.Tom Harris, Mr. Tom Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Clelland, Mr. David Havard, Mr. Dai Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Vara, Mr. Shailesh Clwyd, rh Ann Healey, rh John Loughton, Tim Viggers, Sir Peter Coffey, Ann Henderson, Mr. Doug Luff, Peter Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cohen, Harry Hendrick, Mr. Mark Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Walker, Mr. Charles Connarty, Michael Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Maclean, rh David Wallace, Mr. Ben Cook, Frank Heppell, Mr. John Main, Anne Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cooper, Rosie Hesford, Stephen Malins, Mr. Humfrey Watkinson, Angela Cooper, rh Yvette Heyes, David Maples, Mr. John Webb, Steve Corbyn, Jeremy Hill, rh Keith 627 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 628

Hood, Mr. Jim Mitchell, Mr. Austin Trickett, Jon Wilson, Phil Hope, Phil Moffat, Anne Turner, Dr. Desmond Winnick, Mr. David Hopkins, Kelvin Moffatt, Laura Twigg, Derek Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Howarth, rh Mr. George Mole, Chris Waltho, Lynda Woolas, Mr. Phil Howells, rh Dr. Kim Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Ward, Claire Wright, Mr. Anthony Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Morden, Jessica Watson, Mr. Tom Wright, David Humble, Mrs. Joan Morgan, Julie Watts, Mr. Dave Wright, Mr. Iain Hutton, rh Mr. John Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Whitehead, Dr. Alan Wright, Dr. Tony Iddon, Dr. Brian Mudie, Mr. George Wicks, rh Malcolm Wyatt, Derek Illsley, Mr. Eric Mullin, Mr. Chris Williams, rh Mr. Alan Tellers for the Noes: Irranca-Davies, Huw Munn, Meg Williams, Mrs. Betty Mark Tami and Jackson, Glenda Murphy, Mr. Denis Williams, Hywel Mrs. Sharon Hodgson James, Mrs. Siân C. Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Jenkins, Mr. Brian Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Johnson, rh Alan O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Question accordingly negatived. Johnson, Ms Diana R. O’Hara, Mr. Edward Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I beg to move amendment 17, Jones, Helen Olner, Mr. Bill page 1, line 21, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 Jones, Mr. Kevan Osborne, Sandra Jones, Lynne Palmer, Dr. Nick on page 2. Jowell, rh Tessa Pearson, Ian The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Joyce, Mr. Eric Plaskitt, Mr. James (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pope, Mr. Greg discuss the following: amendment 18, page 2, line 1, leave Keeble, Ms Sally Pound, Stephen out ‘undergoing’ and insert ‘undertaking to undergo’. Keeley, Barbara Prentice, Bridget Keen, Alan Prescott, rh Mr. John Amendment 19, page 2, line 1, leave out ‘a’ and insert Keen, Ann Price, Adam ‘at least one’. Kelly, rh Ruth Primarolo, rh Dawn Amendment 20, page 2, line 2, at end insert— Kemp, Mr. Fraser Prosser, Gwyn ‘(4CA) Any process under subsection (4C) may not be Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Purchase, Mr. Ken contingent on the activity of, or acquiring, a carer.’. Kidney, Mr. David Purnell, rh James Amendment 21, page 2, line 2, at end insert— Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Reed, Mr. Andy Kumar, Dr. Ashok Reid, rh John ‘(4CA) The process under subsection (4C) shall be available to Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Riordan, Mrs. Linda any person with care needs according to guidance issued under Laxton, Mr. Bob Robertson, John section 7(1) of the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970.’. Lazarowicz, Mark Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Amendment 43, page 2, line 4, at end insert— Lepper, David Rooney, Mr. Terry ‘(4E) Provision by virtue of subsection (4B) may for the Levitt, Tom Roy, Mr. Frank purposes of this section not require the recipient of care to Linton, Martin Roy, Lindsay undergo the process defined in subsection (4C) if, in the assessment Lloyd, Tony Ruddock, Joan of a registered medical practitioner, the life expectancy of the Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Russell, Christine person is such that the process will be limited or no benefit, or Love, Mr. Andrew Ryan, rh Joan detrimental to the health of the patient, or will not alter their Lucas, Ian Salter, Martin care needs. Mackinlay, Andrew Seabeck, Alison (4F) Provision by virtue of subsection (4B) may for the purposes MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Sharma, Mr. Virendra of this section not require the recipient of care to undergo the Mactaggart, Fiona Shaw, Jonathan process defined in subsection (4C) if, in the assessment of a Malik, Mr. Shahid Sheerman, Mr. Barry registered practitioner, the process will be of limited or no benefit, Mallaber, Judy Sheridan, Jim or detrimental to the health of the patient, or will not alter their Mann, John Simon, Mr. Siôn care needs.’. Marris, Rob Simpson, Alan Martlew, Mr. Eric Skinner, Mr. Dennis Mr. O’Brien: Amendment 17 would remove McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Slaughter, Mr. Andy new subsection (4C) and amendment 18 would change McCabe, Steve Smith, rh Mr. Andrew the word “undergoing” to something that we think will McCafferty, Chris Smith, Ms Angela C. improve matters. I shall have explained where the Committee’s McCarthy, Kerry (Sheffield, Hillsborough) opinion may best be tested by the time I conclude my McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) remarks. McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, Geraldine The Committee will see that, once again, the Government McDonagh, Siobhain Snelgrove, Anne are falling over themselves in the drafting of this clause. McDonnell, John Soulsby, Sir Peter McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Southworth, Helen Bad drafting is of course indicative of bad legislation, McFall, rh John Spellar, rh Mr. John and the circumlocutions in this provision are a mark of McGovern, Mr. Jim Starkey, Dr. Phyllis the Government’s political motives, which we have already McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Stewart, Ian discussed. How would a lawyer define, for instance, a McIsaac, Shona Stoate, Dr. Howard “process designed to maximise the person’s ability to live McKechin, Ann Strang, rh Dr. Gavin independently”? McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Straw, rh Mr. Jack Marriage would seem an obvious example of such a Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stringer, Graham process, but I cannot imagine for a second that we will Meale, Mr. Alan Stuart, Ms Gisela have local authorities mandating that. This is, of course, Merron, Gillian Taylor, Ms Dari a legislative reference to reablement. I am not convinced, Michael, rh Alun Thomas, Mr. Gareth in truth, that reablement needs to be on the face of the Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Bill. It does not need legislation to make it work, of Miliband, rh Edward Todd, Mr. Mark course, and surely that should be the test of access to Miller, Andrew Touhig, rh Mr. Don the statute book. 629 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 630

8pm that it has to do so. I read it as a mechanism by which a More worryingly, the way that the Bill is drafted local authority may—if it feels that, by getting somebody means that it does not allow a local authority to refuse to undergo an intensive period of support, that person to provide care until the reablement process has occurred. might have a lower care need that would have to be For example, let us say that Mrs. X has suspected funded by the state and the local authority, or if it feels critical needs. She applies for an assessment, which that making the person accept certain technologies in takes three weeks—that is not unusual. She is told that their home and making them use them would ensure a she needs reablement, specifically a stair lift and a lower cost of ongoing care—insist on the person having walk-in bath, which might normally take a further that level of support. In other words, it is a way of month to purchase and install—let us hope so. It is ensuring that somebody does not avoid doing something January, and the council’s budgets are tight, so it slows that would reduce the local authority’s costs in the long down the process in the knowledge that it does not have term just because they are too lazy or too wilful to do it. to start funding her until the reablement has, in the Mr. Stephen O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman is obviously terms of the proposed new subsection, been undergone. carefully thinking through the way in which this will Mrs. X has three months without the care that she operate, and I respect that. The difficulty is that this needs. That is a legally enforceable event under the Bill provision is the trigger mechanism. I am concerned that as drafted, hence my criticism. there should not be any chance for the trigger to be Will the Minister confirm whether the Bill would delayed by the actions of local authorities if they postpone take precedence over section 47 of the National Health the time at which reablement is, in the word proposed Service and Community Care Act 1990, notably by the legislation—it is not my word at all—“undergone”. subsection 1(b), which states that a local authority must I am seeking to ensure that local authorities cannot make a decision as soon as an assessment is carried out, delay because of the words used in the legislation. That and subsection 5, which does not is what we are here for, after all. I want to replace “prevent a local authority from temporarily providing or arranging “undergoing” with “undertaking to undergo” in order for the provision of community care services for any person to make it clear that it should start at the point at which without carrying out a prior assessment”? an assessment is incepted. I hope that our amendment The Minister has confirmed in answer to a parliamentary makes that a lot clearer and a lot more certain. I hope question that that that helps the hon. Gentleman. “there are uncertainties about the long-term impact of re-ablement on the need for care, we cannot make an accurate forecast at this Dr. Ladyman: The hon. Gentleman’s aim is laudable, current time.”—[Official Report, 14 December 2009; Vol. 502, and I can understand it, but if a local authority were to c. 764W.] delay providing support for somebody on the basis that So much for evidence-based policy. Amendment 18 is it had not done something or made something available, the amendment that the Committee might want to see surely no court would allow the local authority to get tested. away with that. The ombudsman certainly would not. Amendment 19 asks how many rounds of reablement Mr. O’Brien: That might well be the case if the people will get. In a response to a parliamentary question, person for whom care and support was needed was the the Minister said: cause of the delay. I suspect that that would cause some “There are currently no proposals to restrict packages of of the support that would otherwise be given free of re-ablement.” charge not to be available anyway, because the person He went on to say, however: would not be ready to accept that level of care. The “It will be for councils to determine who might benefit from issue is the provision of care and what starts the requirement, this intervention and whether it is appropriate to repeat this at a under law, to make that care, which will be free of later date.”—[Official Report, 8 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 291W.] charge, available. That is what we have been concerned Does that mean that the Government will fund reablement about. There is an ambiguity, to say the least, and that goes outside the indicative grants to local authorities? probably an uncertainty, in the way in which the legislation Amendment 20 would prevent reablement from including is drafted. I do not think that this amendment is hugely an informal carer. Will the Minister confirm that reablement challenging or controversial. It is, I hope, trying to give will never include an obligation on a family member to the Government’s intent a better chance of being borne take up informal caring responsibilities? Returning to out in how the wording leads to decision-making behaviour the question of personal care, it seems that carers will from the people who will interpret the Bill in an continue to be taken into account in the assessment of administrative or legal capacity rather than necessarily whether someone has critical needs. The Government’s any behaviour from those who are looking to receive the estimate is that only 50 per cent. of carers for people care. with critical needs and only 5 per cent. of carers for Amendment 21 is a probing amendment to ask the people with moderate needs will give up that informal Minister to clarify who will be eligible for such care, and care when they see that if they do that care will be amendment 43, tabled by the Liberal Democrats, who provided free of charge. Do such small figures hold will address the points that it raises, is on the question water when it comes to the points made by my right of palliative care. I am in sympathy with it and supportive hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) of it. The regulatory impact assessment says that people earlier? receiving palliative care would be excluded from reablement. That seems quite harsh. As Help the Hospices has said: Dr. Ladyman: My reading of this amendment is “people can receive palliative care alongside curative treatment slightly different to that of the hon. Gentleman. Will he (it’s certainly not an either/or) and people can also receive palliative help me? Proposed subsection (4C)—the bit of the care for prolonged periods of time (for some, such as younger clause that is removed—states that a local authority people with life limiting conditions, such care can go on for many “may” make this measure conditional. It does not say years)”. 631 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 632

[Mr. Stephen O’Brien] The amendment would give the option of an exemption for those people who, for good reason, feel unable to I shall ensure that the Liberal Democrats have the take part in the reablement process, particularly those chance to develop that point, but I think that it is who are in possession of a doctor’s note or another important that we recognise it. It is a powerful point form of recognised medical advice recommending that and we are grateful that they have tabled that amendment. that would not be suitable. Making people go through The Minister stated in an answer to a parliamentary that process could cause them great anxiety or even question on the number of cases in which people received physical harm. We believe that the measure should be a palliative care that he had no idea what the median, vital part of the reablement process if we are to have mean and maximum life spans are for people receiving confidence in it, and I reserve the right to push the palliative care. I hope that he will be able to expand on amendment to a vote at the appropriate time if I do not the answer that he gave me on 7 December. That issue, hear a satisfactory response from the Minister. in itself, will be of concern. Dr. Ladyman: The hon. Gentleman’s amendment gives In conclusion, as I want to keep the introduction to the impression that any letter signed by a GP and giving these amendments relatively brief, I think that the technical the effect he has described would mean that a local way to do this will be formally to suggest that although authority could not insist on a reablement process going I will be happy, with leave, to withdraw the lead amendment ahead. As we all have examples in our constituencies of in this group, I hope to have the opportunity to push GPs who are prepared to sign virtually anything that amendment 18 to a vote and to test the opinion of the their patients ask them to sign, what right of appeal Committee on it, unless we hear some staggering response would a local authority have, under his amendment, to from the Minister, which is not expected. challenge such a situation and say that reablement would be an appropriate course of action? The Second Deputy Chairman: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point, but we will Greg Mulholland: That is a fair point; clearly, such a return to it when we have finished the debate. mechanism would need to be built in. There are sometimes concerns about the use of doctors’ notes, but that issue Phil Hope: I want to respond to the debate—I am needs to be addressed separately rather than being disappointed that nobody else wanted to contribute— allowed to turn this idea on its head. We should not say that the exemption should not be there because of other Greg Mulholland rose— concerns. We tabled the amendment to raise the principle for discussion. It is then for the Government to consider The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Does the hon. how best to build such an exemption into the system. I Gentleman wish to contribute? shall wait to hear the Minister’s response. Greg Mulholland: Yes. Phil Hope: This is an important group of amendments. The policy that underlies the measures in the Bill has The Second Deputy Chairman: With the greatest of two clear strands—free personal care for those with the respect, I am not a mind reader. Hon. Members must highest needs who live in their own homes, and a rise in their seats if they wish to contribute. package of intensive support or reablement to help people to remain at home for longer. Reablement services Greg Mulholland: Thank you, Sir Michael. I think are offered by some councils, but it is important that that I was as confused as you were by the lack of local authorities across the country continue to develop anybody who wanted to discuss the amendment. and improve those preventive services. We know that I want to speak briefly about amendment 18, which with a six-week package of appropriate reablement the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) wants to measures many people would be able to reduce their press to a vote. We would clearly all support the reablement dependency on care services and therefore live more process in principle, but it has to be done in a way that independently. It will not always be appropriate for reassures people that it has not been done unnecessarily someone to undergo a period of intensive support, and that it is not going to be a burden to people. If it is depending on their individual circumstances. That is pressed to a vote, we might need to support it, but we why we think that local authorities should be given the will wait to hear the Minister’s comments. discretion to make that judgment and to provide a Amendment 43 is designed to protect people for reablement package as a precursor to arranging a package whom a medical professional thinks that reablement of personal care for the individual where that is thought would not be appropriate. That group would include to be necessary. I want to make it clear that, as my hon. the terminally ill or anyone on whom the process might Friend the Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) have a detrimental effect. The idea behind the amendment rightly said, the measures give local authorities permission is that, although we support the idea of reablement, it to choose to operate in that way. must not be possible for a local authority to refuse On the worry that the hon. Member for Eddisbury someone free personal care at home on the ground that (Mr. O’Brien) described, and the example he gave, the that person refuses to undergo a process of reablement immediate needs of individuals would be met while they if a qualified medical practitioner has said that the were undergoing reablement. A more detailed assessment process could realistically do more harm than good. We would then be undertaken once reablement was completed. have to acknowledge that, given the huge cost implications The detailed work on the scheme would not be included for local authorities, there is a possibility that they in the Bill but would be a matter for guidance, drawing might seek to push people into undergoing reablement, on professional expertise and the views of various or repeat reablement, and that they might threaten to stakeholders. Removing such an express power by accepting withdraw services if an individual refuses to reply. amendment 17 would, I fear, do nothing to encourage 633 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 634 local authorities to develop further their reablement Amendment 20 addresses the issue of carers. It would services. It would also fail to encourage investment in insert the wording: services that help people to improve their personal “Any process under subsection (4C) may not be contingent on situation and help to prevent it from deteriorating and the activity of, or acquiring, a carer.” their care needs increasing. That is one crucial reason why I urge him to withdraw that amendment. The amendment does not make clear the extent to which carer activity, which is what it describes, would be 8.15 pm excluded. Would knowledge and expertise be excluded, or only direct help with day-to-day living? If the amendment Amendment 18 would similarly fail to encourage seeks to exclude carer involvement when reablement individuals—I think this is the point that my hon. packages are designed, that could lead to a reduction in Friend the Member for South Thanet was making—to partnership working, which we all agree is vital, between make the best use of the reablement services available to the local authority and the carer. That could result in a them. The amendment would mean that a local authority diminished outcome for the individual who uses the could make free personal care conditional not on an services. We all know that the role that carers play is individual undergoing reablement, but merely on absolutely vital, because they often have invaluable undertaking to do so. In other words—this is an important knowledge about the care requirements of the person point, and my hon. Friend was right about this—individuals for whom they are caring. Those requirements need to would not need actively to undertake reablement to be taken into account when a reablement package is receive free personal care, but would need merely to designed. undertake to local authorities that they would do so. Therefore, that reablement might never take place. Even in a situation where carers would still be able to Effective reablement relies upon sensible and effective input their knowledge and expertise to design reablement decision making by local authorities, by people who packages, it would be difficult for them to be assured need care services and by their care partners. Reablement that that was being carried out appropriately if they packages need to be put in place and need to be undertaken were not involved in the reablement activity, where they to assist people in living their lives fully and in reducing wished to be. their dependence. The amendment could result in a Carers’ involvement in reablement is crucial, when reduction in partnership working between the individuals that is beneficial to the individual being cared for. They who need care and their local authority. It could also have an invaluable role in supporting the people for result in authorities beginning to work up reablement whom they care, and in working with local authorities packages that the relevant individuals have no intention and care providers. of taking up. The amendment would not have the effects that we would wish to see of ensuring that people I emphasise that the Bill does not seek to place access and use reablement packages as a critical part of additional burdens on carers, but neither does it seek to the whole system of improving care for people and, exclude them from working with councils to achieve the indeed, providing free care for the people with the best outcomes for the people for whom they care. Therefore, highest needs. we believe that it is important that local authorities continue to work with carers on behalf of those with Amendment 19 would change the description of one the highest needs who are eligible for free personal of the potential eligibility criteria that may be set out in care at home. Given my explanation of the clause, I ask regulations. It would change the words the hon. Member for Eddisbury to withdraw the “a process designed to maximise the person’s ability to live amendment. independently” to Amendment 21 purports to extend the potential for local authorities to offer reablement to all those with “at least one process designed to maximise the person’s ability to care needs under the guidance issued under section 7 of live independently”. the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970. The That process, which is described in new subsection (4C), concern, apparently, is that the guidance should set out is more commonly referred to as reablement. Details of how the care is to be made available, and how needs are what might be included in a package of reablement will to be assessed. be laid out in regulations or in guidance. We intend for the process to be a single process, but it could involve a However, local authorities are already required to range of interventions and support such as home act under the general guidance of the Secretary of State adaptations, the installation of telecare and sessions in discharging their social services functions as set with an occupational therapist or physiotherapist. There out in the 1970 Act. That includes guidance covering is a risk that, if the amendment were accepted, local the principles of assessment and the commissioning of authorities could use the wording “at least one” to delay services. giving people the free personal care that they need The details of reablement services will be set out in indefinitely. Clearly, that is not the intention underlying guidance, but the services are designed to help people the Bill. maximise their skills for living more independently. We The effective and appropriate use of reablement services all know that they are a valuable part of helping people can help individuals to reduce their dependency on care to live at home for longer. Local authorities are free to services and can increase their ability to live independently offer reablement to anyone who they feel may benefit. at home. However, where an individual still has high Amendment 21 potentially restricts local authorities’ personal care needs following reablement, they should provision of reablement services only to those who have receive the support they need to meet those personal existing care needs. I think that that would go against care needs. That is why we ask that amendment 19 the very important trend towards universal and preventive should be withdrawn. services. 635 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 636

Amendment 43 would prevent regulations from I intend to press amendment 18 to a Division, but I authorising local authorities to make reablement a condition will say whatever I have to say at the right moment, to of free personal care in certain circumstances, namely make sure that that is clear. when a “registered medical practitioner”or other “registered practitioner” thinks that the process will be of The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. When the hon. “limited or no benefit, or detrimental to the health of the patient, Gentleman has completed his remarks, we will deal with the or will not alter their care needs.” mechanics. He can trust the Chair to do that, I think. I hope that the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland), who speaks for the Liberal Democrats, Mr. O’Brien: I am clear, Sir Michael, that I can, agrees with me that local authorities are best placed to thankfully, trust the Chair to do just that. decide whether a package of reablement would be beneficial It is important to ensure clarity because the reablement before an individual receives personal care support free process is, as the Minister made clear, in the hands of of charge. and, in many ways, in the gift of the local authority, the It is obviously important that local authorities do not providers. In the provision of wheelchairs, for example, force people to undertake a reablement package people may fall between various providers. I am anxious unnecessarily. We expect councils, when they are deciding about the trigger mechanism that gives people their whether reablement is appropriate, to consider in a expectation and their entitlement, at a time when they sensitive fashion the overall benefit and impact of such are very vulnerable and need the greatest possible certainty, a package, and to work with the patient’s family, GP together with their carers who, as the Minister rightly and others to assess that person’s suitability for reablement. said, will continue to be part of the process. That may be particularly important when a person is It would be useful to register our concern that the undergoing palliative or end-of-life care. word “undergoing” is not sufficiently clear in the present I know that one of the concerns about the Bill is that drafting, and press the amendment to a Division, not reablement will not be available for those undergoing least so that anyone reading our proceedings with care palliative care. I can assure the House that, where councils in another place will be able to make sure that the believe that reablement might benefit a person undergoing trigger mechanism is properly analysed. palliative care, then they may offer it. However,if the person Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. is unlikely to benefit, he or she should not be forced to undergo reablement merely to qualify for free personal Amendment proposed: 18, page 2, line 1, leave out care. All the detail of that will be covered in guidance. ‘undergoing’ and insert ‘undertaking to undergo’.— Ultimately, local authorities assess people’s care needs (Mr. Stephen O’Brien.) and their eligibility for care and support, so it is right Question put, That the amendment be made. that they should be able to make decisions about the The House divided: Ayes 183, Noes 285. services that might be appropriate, in conjunction with other relevant partners in care. Division No. 35] [8.26 pm Greg Mulholland: I thank the Minister for that AYES explanation, in which he has made it clear that the Afriyie, Adam Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Government’s intention is that people should not be Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Crabb, Mr. Stephen pressed into undergoing reablement. As long as that is Alexander, Danny Davies, David T.C. the case, I shall not seek to divide the Committee on Amess, Mr. David (Monmouth) amendment 43. Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Davies, Philip Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Phil Hope: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Atkinson, Mr. Peter Dodds, Mr. Nigel that response. I think that it is right that local authorities Bacon, Mr. Richard Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen should be able to make decisions about which services Baker, Norman Ellwood, Mr. Tobias are appropriate, but they must do so in conjunction Baldry, Tony Evans, Mr. Nigel with other relevant care partners. Barker, Gregory Fabricant, Michael I thank hon. Members for raising these issues to do Baron, Mr. John Fallon, Mr. Michael with reablement. I have spoken at length because it is Barrett, John Farron, Tim important that the whole House understands our intent Beith, rh Sir Alan Field, Mr. Mark and how the proposal will operate. All the details will be Bellingham, Mr. Henry Foster, Mr. Don addressed more fully in the guidance accompanying the Benyon, Mr. Richard Francois, Mr. Mark regulations, and I hope that what I have said will Beresford, Sir Paul Fraser, Christopher Blunt, Mr. Crispin Gale, Mr. Roger persuade the hon. Member for Eddisbury to withdraw Bottomley, Peter Garnier, Mr. Edward his amendments. Brokenshire, James Gauke, Mr. David Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I am grateful to the Minister, Brooke, Annette George, Andrew who sought to address a number of issues that we raised Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gibb, Mr. Nick Bruce, rh Malcolm Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl in relation to this group of amendments. I note that on Burns, Mr. Simon Goodman, Mr. Paul his amendment, the spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, Burstow, Mr. Paul Gray, Mr. James the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) Burt, Lorely Grayling, Chris expressed himself relatively satisfied with the Minister’s Butterfill, Sir John Green, Damian approach. Campbell, Mr. Gregory Greening, Justine I indicated earlier in my remarks that the amendment Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Greenway, Mr. John on which we should test the opinion of the Committee Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hammond, Mr. Philip was not 17, which happens to lead the group. I beg to Clappison, Mr. James Hammond, Stephen ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hancock, Mr. Mike 637 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 638

Harper, Mr. Mark Prisk, Mr. Mark Banks, Gordon Farrelly, Paul Harris, Dr. Evan Pritchard, Mark Barlow, Ms Celia Fisher, Mark Harvey, Nick Pugh, Dr. John Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Flello, Mr. Robert Heald, Mr. Oliver Randall, Mr. John Battle, rh John Flint, rh Caroline Heath, Mr. David Reid, Mr. Alan Bayley, Hugh Flynn, Paul Heathcoat-Amory, rh Rennie, Willie Beckett, rh Margaret Follett, Barbara Mr. David Robathan, Mr. Andrew Begg, Miss Anne Foster, Mr. Michael Hemming, John Robertson, Mr. Laurence Benn, rh Hilary (Worcester) Hendry, Charles Rogerson, Dan Benton, Mr. Joe Foster, Michael Jabez Hoban, Mr. Mark Rosindell, Andrew Berry, Roger (Hastings and Rye) Hollobone, Mr. Philip Rowen, Paul Blackman, Liz Francis, Dr. Hywel Holmes, Paul Russell, Bob Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Gapes, Mike Horam, Mr. John Sanders, Mr. Adrian Blears, rh Hazel Gardiner, Barry Horwood, Martin Scott, Mr. Lee Blizzard, Mr. Bob George, rh Mr. Bruce Howarth, Mr. Gerald Selous, Andrew Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Gerrard, Mr. Neil Howell, John Shapps, Grant Brennan, Kevin Gilroy, Linda Hughes, Simon Shepherd, Mr. Richard Brown, Lyn Godsiff, Mr. Roger Huhne, Chris Simpson, David Brown, Mr. Russell Goggins, rh Paul Hunter, Mark Simpson, Mr. Keith Browne, rh Des Goodman, Helen Jack, rh Mr. Michael Smith, Chloe Bryant, Chris Griffith, Nia Jackson, Mr. Stewart Smith, Sir Robert Buck, Ms Karen Griffiths, Nigel Jones, Mr. David Spicer, Sir Michael Burden, Richard Gwynne, Andrew Kawczynski, Daniel Spink, Bob Burgon, Colin Hall, Mr. Mike Keetch, Mr. Paul Spring, Mr. Richard Burnham, rh Andy Hall, Patrick Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Stanley, rh Sir John Butler, Ms Dawn Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Key, Robert Streeter, Mr. Gary Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hanson, rh Mr. David Kirkbride, Miss Julie Stuart, Mr. Graham Cairns, David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Knight, rh Mr. Greg Stunell, Andrew Campbell, Mr. Alan Harris, Mr. Tom Lamb, Norman Swayne, Mr. Desmond Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Havard, Mr. Dai Lancaster, Mr. Mark Swire, Mr. Hugo Caton, Mr. Martin Healey, rh John Lansley, Mr. Andrew Syms, Mr. Robert Cawsey, Mr. Ian Henderson, Mr. Doug Laws, Mr. David Tapsell, Sir Peter Challen, Colin Hendrick, Mr. Mark Leech, Mr. John Teather, Sarah Chapman, Ben Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Thurso, John Clapham, Mr. Michael Hesford, Stephen Lewis, Dr. Julian Timpson, Mr. Edward Clark, Ms Katy Heyes, David Clark, Paul Hill, rh Keith Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Tredinnick, David Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Loughton, Tim Clelland, Mr. David Hood, Mr. Jim Vara, Mr. Shailesh Luff, Peter Clwyd, rh Ann Hope, Phil Viggers, Sir Peter Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Maclean, rh David Cohen, Harry Howarth, rh Mr. George Main, Anne Walker, Mr. Charles Connarty, Michael Howells, rh Dr. Kim Malins, Mr. Humfrey Walter, Mr. Robert Cook, Frank Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Maples, Mr. John Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cooper, Rosie Humble, Mrs. Joan Maude, rh Mr. Francis Watkinson, Angela Cousins, Jim Hutton, rh Mr. John May, rh Mrs. Theresa Webb, Steve Crausby, Mr. David Iddon, Dr. Brian McCrea, Dr. William Whittingdale, Mr. John Creagh, Mary Illsley, Mr. Eric McIntosh, Miss Anne Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Cryer, Mrs. Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Wiggin, Bill Cummings, John Jackson, Glenda Miller, Mrs. Maria Willetts, Mr. David Cunningham, Mr. Jim James, Mrs. Siân C. Milton, Anne Williams, Mr. Roger Cunningham, Tony Jenkins, Mr. Brian Moore, Mr. Michael Williams, Stephen Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Johnson, rh Alan Moss, Mr. Malcolm Wilshire, Mr. David David, Mr. Wayne Johnson, Ms Diana R. Mulholland, Greg Wilson, Mr. Rob Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Helen Murrison, Dr. Andrew Wilson, Sammy Davies, Mr. Dai Jones, Mr. Kevan Neill, Robert Winterton, Ann Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Lynne Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Mr. Martyn O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Winterton, Sir Nicholas Ottaway, Richard Denham, rh Mr. John Jowell, rh Tessa Young, rh Sir George Paice, Mr. James Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Joyce, Mr. Eric Younger-Ross, Richard Paterson, Mr. Owen Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pelling, Mr. Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Dobbin, Jim Keeble, Ms Sally Penning, Mike James Duddridge and Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara Penrose, John Jeremy Wright Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Keen, Alan Doran, Mr. Frank Keen, Ann NOES Dowd, Jim Kelly, rh Ruth Drew, Mr. David Kemp, Mr. Fraser Abbott, Ms Diane Austin, Mr. Ian Durkan, Mark Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Ainger, Nick Austin, John Eagle, Angela Kidney, Mr. David Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Bailey, Mr. Adrian Eagle, Maria Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Allen, Mr. Graham Bain, Mr. William Efford, Clive Kumar, Dr. Ashok Anderson, Janet Baird, Vera Ellman, Mrs. Louise Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Atkins, Charlotte Balls, rh Ed Ennis, Jeff Laxton, Mr. Bob 639 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 640

Lazarowicz, Mark Riordan, Mrs. Linda Clause 2 Lepper, David Robertson, John Levitt, Tom Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey EXTENT AND SHORT TITLE Linton, Martin Rooney, Mr. Terry Lloyd, Tony Roy, Mr. Frank Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Roy, Lindsay Mr. Stephen O’Brien: I beg to move amendment 42, Love, Mr. Andrew Ruane, Chris page 2, line 27, at end insert— Mackinlay, Andrew Ruddock, Joan ‘(1A) The provisions of this Act come into force on whatever MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Russell, Christine day the Secretary of State appoints by order made by statutory Mactaggart, Fiona Ryan, rh Joan instrument.’. Malik, Mr. Shahid Salter, Martin The amendment would quite simply enable the Secretary Mallaber, Judy Seabeck, Alison of State to appoint the day on which the Act would Mann, John Sharma, Mr. Virendra come into force. It might be the same day that it receives Marris, Rob Shaw, Jonathan Royal Assent, as I assume is the intention, or it might be Martlew, Mr. Eric Sheerman, Mr. Barry McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Sheridan, Jim another day. Will the commencement sections or other McCabe, Steve Simon, Mr. Siôn sections of the amended existing legislation require the McCafferty, Chris Simpson, Alan Secretary of State to set out commencement provisions McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Skinner, Mr. Dennis for the measures in the Bill? Can the Bill commence McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Slaughter, Mr. Andy before the regulations in clause 1(4) are passed? That McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Mr. Andrew harks back to some of the other points that we have McDonnell, John Smith, Ms Angela C. made about the rapidity with which we are having to McFadden, rh Mr. Pat (Sheffield, Hillsborough) consider the Bill without some of the necessary supporting McFall, rh John Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) documents, research and basis. McGovern, Mr. Jim Smith, Geraldine McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Snelgrove, Anne It is worth pointing out that this is the only piece of McIsaac, Shona Soulsby, Sir Peter primary legislation sponsored by the Department since McKechin, Ann Southworth, Helen 1997 that includes no commencement provision, which McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Spellar, rh Mr. John reflects on the nature and provenance of the Bill. The Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Starkey, Dr. Phyllis reason for the amendment is that I wish to cause the Meale, Mr. Alan Stewart, Ian Secretary of State and the Minister to pause for thought Merron, Gillian Stoate, Dr. Howard when it comes to putting it into action. I hope that just Michael, rh Alun Strang, rh Dr. Gavin for a moment, they will contemplate what a mess has Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Straw, rh Mr. Jack been occasioned by the desperation of a Prime Minister Miliband, rh Edward Stringer, Graham anxious to use the final moments of a Government and Miller, Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela a Parliament to rush through legislation that appears to Mitchell, Mr. Austin Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry have been electorally driven. Moffat, Anne Tami, Mark Moffatt, Laura Taylor, Ms Dari We have looked as best we can at the Bill to scrutinise Mole, Chris Taylor, Dr. Richard it carefully in the very limited time that we have had Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Thomas, Mr. Gareth available. An important point is that we were up against Morden, Jessica Timms, rh Mr. Stephen the incredible tightness with which the money resolution Morgan, Julie Todd, Mr. Mark was framed, which understandably and rightly excluded Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Touhig, rh Mr. Don many amendments that we wanted to table. Many people Mudie, Mr. George Trickett, Jon outside this place wanted them tabled, because they Mullin, Mr. Chris Turner, Dr. Desmond have a great need to understand how the system will Munn, Meg Twigg, Derek operate in practice and they need clarity and certainty. Murphy, Mr. Denis Waltho, Lynda We are dealing not only with people who care but with Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Ward, Claire people who have care needs, and there is no substitute Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Watson, Mr. Tom O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Watts, Mr. Dave for the clarity and the security that it occasions for O’Hara, Mr. Edward Whitehead, Dr. Alan people in that circumstance. Olner, Mr. Bill Wicks, rh Malcolm As Labour Members have made clear, and as the Osborne, Sandra Williams, rh Mr. Alan Minister has made clear in answers to me, the Government Palmer, Dr. Nick Williams, Mrs. Betty have assessed the funding only for two and a half years. Pearson, Ian Wilson, Phil We have had some discussion about that. That suggests Plaskitt, Mr. James Winnick, Mr. David that although the Bill is an interim measure, which is at Pope, Mr. Greg Winterton, rh Ms Rosie odds with the fundamental point that it is meant to be Pound, Stephen Woolas, Mr. Phil consistent with the Green Paper, it has turned out to be Prentice, Bridget Wright, Mr. Anthony something of a spatchcock of legislation squeezed into Prescott, rh Mr. John Wright, David the end of this Parliament. Price, Adam Wright, Mr. Iain Primarolo, rh Dawn I am keen not to detain the Committee, because we Wright, Dr. Tony Prosser, Gwyn have put on record many times our view about the Wyatt, Derek Purchase, Mr. Ken litany of broken promises, from the then Prime Minister Purnell, rh James Tellers for the Noes: Tony Blair promising in 1997 to sort out social care all Reed, Mr. Andy Mr. John Heppell and the way to today, 13 years later. I hope that the Minister Reid, rh John Kerry McCarthy will take the chance provided by the amendment to contemplate what many people have said about the Bill, Question accordingly negatived. which is that it has driven a coach and horses through Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. the Green Paper process. I know that he resists that view, but it seems real among those who take the closest 641 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 642 possible interest in these matters. Niall Dickson of the Opposition in applauding the Green Paper at the same King’s Fund, shortly to be of the General Medical time as opposing the Bill. It is discourteous when the Council, said in response to the Prime Minister’s Conservatives are running a petition on their website announcement of the policy: that seeks to scare vulnerable and anxious older people “The problem is these latest proposals seem to have been with assertions about disability and attendance allowances hastily put together and appear to cut across the options set out in that are wholly untrue. the government’s own Green Paper. After all, the government has Although the Conservatives have been reluctant to only just finished consulting us on the very different proposals set support the Bill—describing it as anomalous and perverse, out in that document.” as they have done today—other people have welcomed The English Community Care Association said that it unreservedly. Imelda Redmond, chief executive of “it is unhelpful to have just one piece of the jigsaw”. Carers UK, has said: The Association of British Insurers noted: “Many families face crippling costs to pay for care, and this “It is regrettable that the Personal Care at Home Bill undermines historic pledge to end the means test for those with the highest the Government’s own Social Care Green Paper”, need could make a huge difference to their lives.” and the Equality and Human Rights Commission expressed That is in stark contrast to the quotes cited by the hon. the concerns that I set out when discussing the previous Gentleman. group of amendments. Lord Lipsey, who was famously a member of the royal commission on long-term care Mr. Dorrell rose— and is usually no enemy of the current Government, put it most clearly when he said: Phil Hope: I will give way in one moment, but I was “What has gone wrong is that in the middle of the consultation...the thrown quotes criticising the Bill, and I am going to Prime Minister has declared” throw back some quotes from stakeholders who support it. this Government policy. The president of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, Jenny Owen, said of the Green 8.45 pm Paper and the Bill: The reason for this amendment is to give those hon. “Today’s announcement is an important and valued first step Members with a keen interest in how the Bill has been on that road”, put together a chance to talk of their regret about how meaning the road to creating a national care service. it has been done, not necessarily its objectives. Many of Mike Padgham, chairman of UKHCA, said: us agree with its objectives; the trouble is that it does “We welcome the Prime Minister’s high-level commitment to not sit well in the context that we have all been working homecare and look forward to the detail of how people will be towards and the attempt to build a consensus. I hope able to access free personal care. Home-based care is an excellent that the Minister will come to recognise that there is a service which keeps many people out of hospital and…enables price to pay for political tribalism, given his reluctance people to return to their communities quickly following hospital to contemplate the merits of our home protection scheme. discharge.” Taken together with the provisions in the Bill and other measures urged on me by the hon. Member for South Mr. Dorrell: The Minister has said several times that Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) among others, that scheme could the Bill concentrates money on those with the greatest provide the whole picture, rather than just one piece of care need. Is that true? The resources are in fact being the jigsaw. That is why we have tabled the amendment. channelled to those with the greatest care needs that can We do not want to see a postponement of implementation, be met at home, but those with the greatest care need but this Bill should be seen as part of a consensual are those whose needs cannot be met at home. Their process, as far as we can achieve that. In the absence of needs must be met in residential care, and for them the such a process, and with the Government taking such a means-tested system will continue to operate. tribal approach, we have had difficulty scrutinising the legislation. Its provenance is more electoral and party Phil Hope: We go around the same arguments that we political than policy driven. The amendment would give have been having all afternoon. The right hon. Gentleman the Government chance to pause and contemplate the fails to acknowledge the importance of supporting people fact that they should have set the Bill in a broader independently in their homes, which I thought all parties context. I invite those who think that it could have been accepted. The people with the highest needs are the handled better—perhaps as Lord Lipsey has suggested—to people to whom we have given priority, as a step along support the amendment. the road to a national care service that will meet the needs of all older people—indeed, all adults over the Phil Hope: The reluctance of the Opposition to support age of 18—over the years to come. His party recognises this Bill was obvious on Second Reading and today. The that that is a huge challenge, and we are endeavouring amendment would require a commencement order before to propose measures for it. the Bill could come into force, and would be yet another obstacle to the provision of free personal care for those Mr. Dorrell: I am grateful to the Minister for his adults and older people with some of the highest needs. patience in giving way, but he again spoke about people We want to help those people live independently in their with the highest care needs. We all agree that we should own homes. encourage as many people as possible to live at home The hon. Gentleman talks about consensus. He holds and introduce a system to enable that—there is no out the hand of consensus, but in his other hand is the argument about that. However, it is simply untrue that back-stabbing knife of the Conservatives’ disgraceful the Bill focuses resources on those with the highest care and scaremongering petition on disability benefits for needs. Those who need residential care have the highest older people. That shows the two-faced attitude of the care needs, but the Bill does nothing for them. 643 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 644

Phil Hope: The right hon. Gentleman simply continues the purposes that it is intended to work and for the to dig himself into a bigger hole. The question before people for whom it is meant to work. That is why we the House is this: do we support a Bill that will help have done what we had to do in this Committee stage. those people living at home with the highest care needs—yes That is precisely why we are all sent here: to do our or no? To Labour Members, the answer is clear and legislative duty. I am surprised that the Minister found unequivocal, but the Opposition have continually put that insulting and felt that it warranted his outrageous forward obstacles, objections and amendments, and rant, which I thought was undignified and not worthy describe the Bill as perverse and anomalous. of the office that he is privileged to hold. As the Bill continues through Parliament, I will be Therefore it is vital that we give the Government and clear in telling my constituents how proud I am that the Secretary of State a chance to pause for thought. over 10 years, we have been developing and improving Has this Bill been sufficiently well framed, in its timing care services in this country. The Bill is one more step and for the process by which we are drawn to this place along the road to creating a comprehensive solution to to scrutinise legislation? Is it sufficient for a Government the care needs of the people of this country.Amendment 42 simply to say, “We want it to happen; therefore it will would simply put another barrier in the way and we do happen”? Or, at this late stage in this Parliament, should not need it. No separate commencement order is needed we be doing our duty, by looking at the constituency and no other obstacle or hurdle is required: they would that the Bill is meant to represent? The Minister has not simply add more work and time to the process in general. given an adequate answer to why 2,000 people becoming We do not intend the regulations to come into force net beneficiaries is a sufficient benefit, as opposed to the within two months of Royal Assent, and that is acceptable. costs, to warrant the £500 million being pledged, not It is time for the games to stop and for the Conservatives least because money is to be scraped from savings by to give the Bill unalloyed and clear support. local authorities—local authorities are meant to be serious providers; they are also meant to have the opportunity to save—from budgets that are often already Mr. Stephen O’Brien: This is slightly depressing. The pared down to the bone. Government have chosen to discuss what they regard as a prime ministerial flagship Bill for only one day on the It behoves us to give the Committee an opportunity Floor of the House. The Bill was put together at short to express its opinion. Had the Minister chosen to take notice and flies in the face of the processes that the a slightly different route in responding to this debate, we Government had already set up through a Green Paper. might have been more amenable to building a consensual All sorts of people outside this place, including those approach, but that does not seem to be on offer. The who give a lot of their time to caring for vulnerable Committee should have the opportunity to register its people and the many people in the various categories of distaste at how the Government have sought to treat us in need, have grave concerns about it. There is a big dealing with the amendment and at the Minister’s response. question mark about the legitimacy of the legislation. I therefore seek to press the amendment to a vote. We have properly asked questions about its compliance Question put, That the amendment be made. with the European convention on human rights and my The Committee divided: Ayes 188, Noes 286. right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) rightly identified and reinforced those discrimination Division No. 36] [8.57 pm issues in his argument. However, after all that, we end up with the Minister somewhat charmlessly deciding AYES that it is really rather an insult to subject the legislation Afriyie, Adam Campbell, Mr. Gregory that he is meant to be defending to scrutiny. Of course, Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Carmichael, Mr. Alistair the only way in which one can do that is by way of Alexander, Danny Carswell, Mr. Douglas amendment—I dare say that that would be clear in the Amess, Mr. David Clappison, Mr. James minds of most hon. Members. The fact that the Bill has Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth been rushed out and is contrary to the run of the Green Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Paper means that many questions have to be asked. Atkinson, Mr. Peter Crabb, Mr. Stephen Bacon, Mr. Richard Davies, David T.C. In my introduction I simply proposed my amendment 42 Baker, Norman (Monmouth) and said how it is framed, so it hardly warranted the Baldry, Tony Davies, Philip Minister’s quite extraordinary rant. It is framed so as to Barker, Gregory Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan allow the Committee an opportunity to test whether it Baron, Mr. John Dodds, Mr. Nigel feels that the process by which the Bill has come about, Barrett, John Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen the time in which the consultation will take place—it Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellwood, Mr. Tobias will not finish until February—and the results of the Bellingham, Mr. Henry Evans, Mr. Nigel assessment of that consultation, which will be important Benyon, Mr. Richard Fabricant, Michael for so many people representing various stakeholder Beresford, Sir Paul Fallon, Mr. Michael and constituency interests, have been sufficiently thought Blunt, Mr. Crispin Farron, Tim through and well framed for us to produce good legislation, Bottomley, Peter Featherstone, Lynne which we can pass from this House to the other place to Brady, Mr. Graham Field, Mr. Mark look at. We have set up a number of things that I hope Brokenshire, James Foster, Mr. Don those in the other place will find useful, as hooks for Brooke, Annette Francois, Mr. Mark their discussions, so that their expertise can be brought Browne, Mr. Jeremy Fraser, Christopher Bruce, rh Malcolm Gale, Mr. Roger to bear. Burns, Mr. Simon Garnier, Mr. Edward I hope that the record will show that, far from not Burstow, Mr. Paul Gauke, Mr. David being supporters of the Bill, we are indeed supporters Burt, Lorely George, Andrew of the Bill. We are also keen to ensure that it works for Butterfill, Sir John Gibb, Mr. Nick 645 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 646

Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl O’Brien, Mr. Stephen NOES Goodman, Mr. Paul Öpik, Lembit Ainger, Nick Dobbin, Jim Gray, Mr. James Ottaway, Richard Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Dobson, rh Frank Grayling, Chris Paice, Mr. James Allen, Mr. Graham Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Green, Damian Penning, Mike Anderson, Janet Doran, Mr. Frank Greening, Justine Penrose, John Atkins, Charlotte Dowd, Jim Greenway, Mr. John Prisk, Mr. Mark Austin, Mr. Ian Drew, Mr. David Hammond, Mr. Philip Pritchard, Mark Austin, John Durkan, Mark Hammond, Stephen Pugh, Dr. John Bailey, Mr. Adrian Eagle, Angela Hancock, Mr. Mike Randall, Mr. John Bain, Mr. William Eagle, Maria Harper, Mr. Mark Reid, Mr. Alan Baird, Vera Efford, Clive Harris, Dr. Evan Rennie, Willie Balls, rh Ed Ellman, Mrs. Louise Harvey, Nick Robathan, Mr. Andrew Banks, Gordon Ennis, Jeff Heald, Mr. Oliver Robertson, Mr. Laurence Barlow, Ms Celia Farrelly, Paul Heath, Mr. David Rogerson, Dan Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Fisher, Mark Heathcoat-Amory, rh Rosindell, Andrew Battle, rh John Flello, Mr. Robert Mr. David Rowen, Paul Bayley, Hugh Flint, rh Caroline Hemming, John Russell, Bob Beckett, rh Margaret Flynn, Paul Hendry, Charles Sanders, Mr. Adrian Begg, Miss Anne Follett, Barbara Hoban, Mr. Mark Scott, Mr. Lee Benn, rh Hilary Foster, Mr. Michael Hollobone, Mr. Philip Selous, Andrew Benton, Mr. Joe (Worcester) Holmes, Paul Shapps, Grant Berry, Roger Foster, Michael Jabez Horam, Mr. John Shepherd, Mr. Richard Betts, Mr. Clive (Hastings and Rye) Horwood, Martin Simpson, David Blackman, Liz Francis, Dr. Hywel Howarth, David Simpson, Mr. Keith Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Gapes, Mike Howarth, Mr. Gerald Smith, Chloe Blears, rh Hazel Gardiner, Barry Howell, John Smith, Sir Robert Blizzard, Mr. Bob George, rh Mr. Bruce Hughes, Simon Spicer, Sir Michael Borrow, Mr. David S. Gerrard, Mr. Neil Huhne, Chris Spink, Bob Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Gilroy, Linda Hunter, Mark Spring, Mr. Richard Brennan, Kevin Godsiff, Mr. Roger Hurd, Mr. Nick Stanley, rh Sir John Brown, Lyn Goggins, rh Paul Jack, rh Mr. Michael Streeter, Mr. Gary Brown, Mr. Russell Goodman, Helen Jackson, Mr. Stewart Stuart, Mr. Graham Browne, rh Des Griffith, Nia Jones, Mr. David Stunell, Andrew Bryant, Chris Griffiths, Nigel Kawczynski, Daniel Swayne, Mr. Desmond Buck, Ms Karen Grogan, Mr. John Keetch, Mr. Paul Swire, Mr. Hugo Burden, Richard Gwynne, Andrew Kennedy, rh Mr. Syms, Mr. Robert Burgon, Colin Hall, Mr. Mike Charles Tapsell, Sir Peter Burnham, rh Andy Hall, Patrick Key, Robert Taylor, Dr. Richard Butler, Ms Dawn Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Kirkbride, Miss Julie Teather, Sarah Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hanson, rh Mr. David Knight, rh Mr. Greg Thurso, John Cairns, David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lamb, Norman Timpson, Mr. Edward Campbell, Mr. Alan Harris, Mr. Tom Lancaster, Mr. Mark Tredinnick, David Caton, Mr. Martin Havard, Mr. Dai Lansley, Mr. Andrew Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Cawsey, Mr. Ian Healey, rh John Laws, Mr. David Vara, Mr. Shailesh Challen, Colin Henderson, Mr. Doug Leech, Mr. John Viggers, Sir Peter Chapman, Ben Hendrick, Mr. Mark Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Clapham, Mr. Michael Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Lewis, Dr. Julian Walker, Mr. Charles Clark, Ms Katy Hermon, Lady Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Clark, Paul Hesford, Stephen Ian Walter, Mr. Robert Waterson, Mr. Nigel Clarke,rhMr.Tom Heyes, David Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Clelland, Mr. David Hill, rh Keith Watkinson, Angela Loughton, Tim Clwyd, rh Ann Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Webb, Steve Luff, Peter Coffey, Ann Hope, Phil Whittingdale, Mr. John Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Cohen, Harry Hopkins, Kelvin Widdecombe, rh Miss Main, Anne Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr. George Ann Malins, Mr. Humfrey Cook, Frank Howells, rh Dr. Kim Maples, Mr. John Wiggin, Bill Cooper, Rosie Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mates, rh Mr. Michael Willetts, Mr. David Cousins, Jim Humble, Mrs. Joan Maude, rh Mr. Francis Williams, Mr. Roger Crausby, Mr. David Hutton, rh Mr. John May, rh Mrs. Theresa Williams, Stephen Creagh, Mary Iddon, Dr. Brian McCrea, Dr. William Wilshire, Mr. David Cryer, Mrs. Ann Illsley, Mr. Eric McIntosh, Miss Anne Wilson, Mr. Rob Cummings, John Irranca-Davies, Huw McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Wilson, Sammy Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jackson, Glenda Miller, Mrs. Maria Winterton, Ann Cunningham, Tony James, Mrs. Siân C. Milton, Anne Winterton, Sir Nicholas Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Jenkins, Mr. Brian Moore, Mr. Michael Young, rh Sir George David, Mr. Wayne Johnson, Ms Diana R. Moss, Mr. Malcolm Younger-Ross, Richard Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Helen Mulholland, Greg Davies, Mr. Dai Jones, Mr. Kevan Murrison, Dr. Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Lynne Neill, Robert James Duddridge and Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Mr. Martyn Newmark, Mr. Brooks Jeremy Wright Denham, rh Mr. John Jowell, rh Tessa Dismore, Mr. Andrew Joyce, Mr. Eric 647 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 648

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pope, Mr. Greg Wright, Mr. Iain Tellers for the Noes: Keeley, Barbara Pound, Stephen Wright, Dr. Tony Mr. John Heppell and Keen, Alan Prentice, Bridget Wyatt, Derek Kerry McCarthy Keen, Ann Prescott, rh Mr. John Kelly, rh Ruth Price, Adam Question accordingly negatived. Kemp, Mr. Fraser Primarolo, rh Dawn Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Prosser, Gwyn Kidney, Mr. David Purchase, Mr. Ken 9.10 pm Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Purnell, rh James Proceedings interrupted (Order, 14 December). Kumar, Dr. Ashok Reed, Mr. Andy Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Reed, Mr. Jamie The Chairman put forthwith the Question necessary Laxton, Mr. Bob Reid, rh John for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Lazarowicz, Mark Riordan, Mrs. Linda time (Standing Order No. 83D). Lepper, David Robertson, John Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Levitt, Tom Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Linton, Martin Rooney, Mr. Terry Lloyd, Tony Roy, Mr. Frank Bill reported, without amendment. Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Roy, Lindsay Third Reading Love, Mr. Andrew Ruane, Chris Lucas, Ian Ruddock, Joan 9.11 pm Mackinlay, Andrew Russell, Christine MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Ryan, rh Joan Phil Hope: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read Mactaggart, Fiona Salter, Martin the Third time. Malik, Mr. Shahid Seabeck, Alison This is a small Bill containing just one substantial Mallaber, Judy Sharma, Mr. Virendra Mann, John Shaw, Jonathan clause, but, as has been remarked, it will have a great Marris, Rob Sheerman, Mr. Barry significance for thousands of the most vulnerable adults Marsden, Mr. Gordon Sheridan, Jim and older people in our constituencies. As was said, we Martlew, Mr. Eric Simon, Mr. Siôn know that social care needs a radical overhaul, and the McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Simpson, Alan Green Paper published last year reflects our commitment McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr. Dennis to taking decisive action. However, the promise of McCafferty, Chris Slaughter, Mr. Andy fundamental reform in the future must not prevent us McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Mr. Andrew from taking important measures here and now to help McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, Ms Angela C. those with the greatest need living in their own homes. McDonagh, Siobhain (Sheffield, Hillsborough) The Bill means we can take action to reduce the McDonnell, John Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, Geraldine unfairness and uncertainty that many people feel as McFall, rh John Snelgrove, Anne their health worsens and their care needs grow. The Bill McGovern, Mr. Jim Soulsby, Sir Peter will provide support and financial relief to 400,000 McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Southworth, Helen older people with the greatest care needs, including McIsaac, Shona Spellar, rh Mr. John those with conditions such as Parkinson’s, dementia McKechin, Ann Starkey, Dr. Phyllis and motor neurone disease. Some 280,000 people who McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Stewart, Ian require high levels of intimate personal care on a day-to-day Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stoate, Dr. Howard basis will now get these services for free in their own Meale, Mr. Alan Strang, rh Dr. Gavin home. Many of them have faced the burden of paying Merron, Gillian Straw, rh Mr. Jack large amounts of money for care as their conditions Michael, rh Alun Stuart, Ms Gisela deteriorate, and this Bill will remove that millstone. In Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry addition, a further 130,000 people will receive free Miliband, rh Edward Tami, Mark reablement or rehabilitation to help them to recover Miller, Andrew Taylor, Ms Dari Mitchell, Mr. Austin Thomas, Mr. Gareth their independence after a fall, bereavement or serious Moffat, Anne Timms, rh Mr. Stephen illness. Moffatt, Laura Todd, Mr. Mark The Bill is practical and will be financially manageable Mole, Chris Touhig, rh Mr. Don for councils. Indeed, many local authorities already Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Trickett, Jon offer some form of reablement support, which is helping Morden, Jessica Turner, Dr. Desmond them to use their resources more efficiently. Because of Morgan, Julie Twigg, Derek that, we have a running start on many of the financial Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Waltho, Lynda and logistical hurdles that were discussed in Committee, Mudie, Mr. George Ward, Claire including recruiting and paying for the additional work Mullin, Mr. Chris Watson, Mr. Tom force required to honour the commitment. We are Munn, Meg Watts, Mr. Dave consulting widely on how the system will work and how Murphy, Mr. Denis Whitehead, Dr. Alan people will be assessed. I want councils to have flexibility Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Wicks, rh Malcolm over how they resource the free personal care offer, Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Williams, rh Mr. Alan O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Williams, Mrs. Betty while we ensure consistency across the country over O’Hara, Mr. Edward Williams, Hywel who receives it. Olner, Mr. Bill Wilson, Phil Above all, the Bill supports a simple principle—one Osborne, Sandra Winnick, Mr. David that I must have reiterated in every intervention on the Palmer, Dr. Nick Winterton, rh Ms Rosie right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell)—which Pearson, Ian Woolas, Mr. Phil is that we must do everything we can to help people to Pelling, Mr. Andrew Wright, Mr. Anthony live as well as they can, for as long as they can and in Plaskitt, Mr. James Wright, David their own homes. That is what people tell us they want 649 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 650 and why the Bill focuses on providing personal care for The proportionality of this legislation remains in those who live in their own home, including sheltered or serious doubt. The benefit estimated—that word again—by supported accommodation. Let us remember that the the Government is only £190 million a year, less than a Bill will not only benefit older people but support their third of the cost. The measure impacts on only 279,000 family members, many of whom face the difficult task people, of whom 166,000 already receive care for free. It of looking after an elderly relative while also bringing makes a difference to only 110,635, less than 2.5 per up their own family and holding down a job. It will cent. of what the Government have said are the 6 million bring wider economic and social benefits for carers, as people in England with care needs. well as long-term savings for the taxpayer by preventing The Bill makes no attempt to allow the whole gamut hospital admissions and reducing care costs down the of social care to be addressed in the future. The Government line. In other words, the Bill makes sense financially, as have our home protection scheme before them. They well as morally. have made various criticisms, but none of them amounts Social care is changing across the country thanks to to anything other than the usual political rhetoric. As the £500 million that we have put into the transforming we have made clear, that scheme only addresses residential adult social care programme. Today’s Bill is another big care, but their policy addresses some very narrowly step forward and a vital bridge to the radical proposals defined domiciliary care. One could seek to put those for funding social care heralded in our recent Green two together and build a more consensual approach to Paper. This is a significant moment for the House. By trying to plug all the gaps and address the whole waterfront, passing this Bill, we can extend the promise of a fairer, as it were, of social care. In that, one can see the more affordable and more sustainable care system in the prospect of an opportunity for an approach that is a future, and we can make an immediate difference, here little less adversarial than, sadly, we have experienced, and now, to our most vulnerable constituents, giving a particularly in terms of the last group of amendments, hand up to those laid low by age and illness. I commend which was a shame. the Bill to the House. The Government have done little to reassure us that 9.14 pm they know the meaning of the word “free” in terms of Mr. Stephen O’Brien: H.G. Wells famously once said: public policy: “free” means that somebody else pays. In “In England we have come to rely upon a comfortable time-lag this instance, they are pledging to cut money. A number of fifty years or a century intervening between the perception that of budgets have been mentioned, and they have sought something ought to be done and a serious attempt to do it.” to give rebuttals. We will study very carefully the rebuttal Perhaps that is a little harsh, but we all remember Tony put forward at the Dispatch Box on research budgets, Blair’s pledge at the 1997 Labour party conference that such as those targeting diseases such as dementia and he would sort out social care, and yet now, nearing cancer. There has also been a pledge to cut some money 13 years later, the Government are still dealing with from the NHS IT programme. As Ministers are aware, I only a relatively small part of the overall picture, of the have been ferreting around, using parliamentary questions demand that has been coming from all quarters for to try to get some answers, but the Government have many years. never come clean about what contractual break clauses Broadly, we have had a good series of discussions this there are in NHS IT, or in some other contracts to do afternoon. Time constraints have, however, been placed with the supply of swine flue vaccine, which I know my on us by the Government’s somewhat bizarre programming hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire decisions. This is not a free-vote issue, and nor is it a (Mr. Lansley), the shadow Secretary of State, looks matter of national security, so it is puzzling that we have forward to receiving in terms. been given only this brief opportunity of one day to It was important to make sure it is recognised that the cover all the remaining stages of the Bill on the Floor of Government have not pledged to support this policy the House, rather than having the fuller scrutiny it with money from the centre, other than some proportion would have received with a longer Committee stage of it. They are also relying on the efficiency savings they upstairs and potentially a full Report stage. Frankly, we simply announce can be made from local government—a have ended up little, if any, closer to the clarity we need full quarter of a billion pounds. on some issues, such as the true costs of this measure—not Of course, I wish that the Government had taken the only the basis for many of the estimates, but the costs opportunity to look beyond the narrow confines of this post-2012 and the potential costs if the estimates are particularly electorally inspired Bill, whose provenance wrong. We expressed sufficient doubts to raise some serious was the Prime Minister’s comments at the time of his questions about that. The Government have given little Labour party conference last September. With the money hope to local council tax payers and service users, who resolution being as tight as it was, there was not the are set to bear the brunt of any funding shortfall. opportunity for them to undertake full and proper The potential legal loopholes in the Bill are very consideration, not least of our home protection scheme. worrying for the added costs they would bring, such as We would have enjoyed having the opportunity to debate in respect of care homes restructuring, residential care and propose that. However, that is how it is, and we qualifying as “home”, and, of course, the human rights recognise that it will be difficult to persuade this Government implications of the measure, which we have rightly to do what we hope they will do, which is to bring discussed at length. A number of questions remain together a number of us to try to find some way to about reablement: who will get it, whether it is carer- deliver on the very legacy that the Secretary of State dependent, and whether the costings are accurate and claims he is trying to secure. who will pay if they are not. Most disturbingly, the The Secretary of State says that he seeks some Government have refused to budge on their position “unstoppable momentum for legislation” in this area. It regarding people with palliative care needs, although is impossible to know now whether the Bill will complete the discussion we had on that gives us some grounds for all its stages, given that it must go through the upper optimism that the situation may improve. House and that we have no idea when the general 651 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 652

[Mr. Stephen O’Brien] advances have been made in the provision of social care. One that the Opposition continually fail to mention is election, which must come before June, will be called. the fact that if someone goes into care and does not Thus we cannot be sure whether this Bill is “unstoppable” want to sell the family home that they have lived in, or whether it represents “momentum”—we are not even local authorities now have the money to put a charge on sure that it will be legislation. What we do know is that that home to pay the social care debts after that person’s establishing unstoppable momentum requires a degree death. The reason why so many people still sell their of consensus. If the Government genuinely wish to take family home against their will is that Conservative that approach, I would be more than happy to be asked councils and, I have to say, Liberal Democrat councils to participate in such a discussion, as I dare say those all around the country forget to tell people about that from other Opposition parties would. benefit that is now available. As the measure goes strongly against what the That is not the only social care reform. Extensive Government set out in their Green Paper, we have faced efforts have been made to upgrade the status of the the difficulty of trying to understand how to place the social care work force, to qualify them, to ensure that Bill in the context of the wider reform that so many of the regulation of social care is fit for purpose and to us seek and know must be addressed—our political ensure that appropriate training is available to people generation has no option but to do that. In our who work in social care. Measures have been taken to consideration of this Bill in the time available to us, we improve the methods of discharging people from hospitals have faced particular difficulty in understanding the so that there is no longer bed blocking and to ensure true evidence that lies behind it and the calculations of that social care provision is available for people in the the costs. A lot of us, including many outside this place, community when they need to be discharged from have had desperate concerns about the thoroughness hospital. Reablement schemes are available around the and robustness of the impact assessment, even when the country and improvements have been made to the provision Government have sought to reissue some of the numbers. of services and to the integration of services between None the less, we have tried to give the Bill reasonable the NHS and social care. Efforts are also being made to scrutiny. extend the availability of telecare and of extra care Interestingly, the Bill may face its biggest difficulty accommodation. I remain disappointed by some of the when it goes to another place. The Government may comments made by the Opposition about extra care. If, well have a tougher time of it there, where they have as they say, they are approaching this Bill in an open-minded some noble “Friends”—I assume that that word still spirit and if they want to approach me, I will happily applies—in Lord Warner and Lord Lipsey who have take them to see some extra care accommodation and certainly, in comments to date, been squaring up for to see the benefits that such care can provide to people. something of a fight on this. Lord Lipsey has called the All the measures that have been put in place so far Bill a “gimmick” and said that it is have been the first steps in improving social care provision “bad policy but also a very bad way to do policy just to find in this country, but the Bill that we are discussing today a…highlight for your Labour Party conference speech.” is only the next step on that path. The biggest step of all Who knows, perhaps everything has changed in Lord remains in front of us: we need to fold all those measures Lipsey’s mind after the apparently rousing call to arms together into the comprehensive social care package by the “Mr. I’m a team player” Prime Minister at the that we know we have to face up to. In my view, it will parliamentary Labour party meeting last night—we necessitate some form of co-payment and some method will wait and see. of bringing in extra resources from the population. I In advance of what might be considered in the other said on Second Reading that my preference would be a place, what matters is that we have done our very best to hypothecated inheritance tax, and I shall continue to try to unearth what truly lies behind this Bill and how it reiterate that until somebody takes the idea seriously. will in fact be made to work, given that it is proclaimed Whether we use that solution or some other insurance-based to service the needs of some—only some, not all—of solution, a solution will have to be found. We must find the most vulnerable in our country. I am grateful not a solution to how we can get local councils to assess only to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to all those who people’s care to ensure that packages are portable and have assisted us in going through the process of scrutinising to agree on how they will be funded so that they are this Bill, but particularly to my many Conservative funded to the same level around the country. That will colleagues who have taken the opportunity to contribute have major implications for localism and the role of to this extremely well-informed and responsibly discussed local authorities in the future. debate on an important matter. These are huge issues that will have to be addressed—and 9.23 pm addressed they must be—but this Bill is nevertheless a valuable contribution to that process. It will radically Dr. Ladyman: For a relatively small group of people transform the lives of that group of people with high across the country who are struggling at home with a levels of care needs who want to stay in their own high level of care need and who are worried about the homes. For that reason, this Bill is absolutely worthy of cost of that and whether they can continue to live in the House’s support, but only with the caveat that we their own home or will have to go into residential care, should all commit ourselves to taking the next step as this Bill will transform their lives. We need to put things soon as possible. in context, as I have attempted to do all the way through these debates, by saying that that group is relatively small. That is why this Bill, despite being good and 9.28 pm worthy of support, is only the next step in the reform of Norman Lamb: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. social care. It is not the first such step and it is important Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman). I absolutely to emphasise that over the past 12 and a bit years many agree with his last point: we must all commit ourselves 653 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 654 to finding a sustainable, long-term solution that meets critical need who are cared for at home—but not another the needs of all those with care needs and not just the group who, through no fault of their own, end up small group whom this Bill addresses. having to have their critical needs met in care homes Let me start by making it clear that there are two because they simply cannot be cared for at home? That other points on which we all agree. I am sure that we all is perverse. Why should one group benefit and not agree on the absolute importance of the idea that any another? The Government have provided no answer to reform should facilitate people’s remaining in their own that. homes for as long as they can. For the group of people Our third core concern is whether what is proposed who will benefit from the Bill, that will clearly be the would be the most effective use of public funds. The case. We must ensure that that principle is at the heart Green Paper strongly makes the case that in any reform of the final reform that we achieve. we have a duty to ensure that we use public funds to the The second absolutely important principle, which best possible effect to achieve the best outcome for all this Bill addresses, is the value of reablement. The Bill those who have care needs, but the Bill does not do that. recognises that at present we do not do reablement well The impact assessment confirms specifically that the enough. There are patches of good practice around the group of elderly people who would benefit most from country where authorities have been able to demonstrate the proposal would be the wealthiest. the enormous potential savings and, more importantly, the dramatic improvement in people’s lives of committing The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham) properly to reablement. However, in too many parts of indicated dissent. the country reablement is not provided well enough. At its best, the Bill provides an incentive to the system to Norman Lamb: The Secretary of State shakes his ensure that reablement takes place. That is a good thing. head, but the impact assessment makes that clear. At Following the debates today and on Second Reading paragraph 5.21, it states: we still have three core concerns, the first of which is “The recipients of free personal care are believed to fall into affordability and sustainability, particularly given the the bottom, 2nd and 3rd quintiles because even the wealthiest older people (who represent the main beneficiary group) are in trend towards an ageing population. We used to be the middle of the income distribution of society at large.” attacked by the Government for our previous commitment to free personal care. Two years ago, we removed that In other words, the wealthiest elderly people are not the commitment. I took a paper through our party conference, wealthiest people in society, but they are the main because I reached the conclusion that one could not, in beneficiaries of the Bill. I find it bizarre that a Labour reality, argue the case for free personal care given the Government should choose to use available public funds demographic changes that we are witnessing. The Green to benefit most the wealthiest older people, given that Paper recognises that point, but the Bill shifts in that there are many others with acute care needs. The conclusion direction. That causes me real concern, because the cost must be that that is not the best use of available public of the duty to provide free care to the relevant group of funds. people will keep rising. I am also concerned that the Bill has been oversold by The Government have set a cap on the amount that the Government. The Minister again quoted a figure of they will contribute, so the other potentially pernicious 400,000 for the total number of people to benefit from impact is that if the rest of the funding has to come free care, and that of course includes those who would from local authorities as the numbers continue to increase, benefit from reablement. However, when one looks at something else will have to give. My fear is that, owing the number of new recipients of free care at home, the to this duty, other vulnerable people who benefit from real figure is 110,000. The Government do not use that care from local authorities on a discretionary basis will figure at all in their pronouncements. end up losing their care, or part of it. If the demand is The Government say that the Bill protects the care of higher than the impact assessment has concluded, the those currently receiving free care, but it is hard to impact will again be on local authorities here and now, envisage circumstances in which those in critical need and the potential consequences could be very damaging. who are currently benefiting from care on a means-tested Our second core concern is that the proposal is a basis would lose that care. Therefore, it is somewhat partial solution. I think that everyone recognises that. disingenuous to argue that there is some great benefit The Government’s case is that it is a bridge to reform, for that group. The new recipients of free care will total but as long as it remains the only reform to have just 110,000. As the hon. Member for South Thanet happened, and until we have more comprehensive reform, made clear, that is a relatively small group, compared it will have perverse consequences. As the right hon. with the total number of people with care needs who Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) has made very will have to be supported in any final reform of the clear, it will provide an incentive for local authorities to system. push people into care homes. That is not a good thing, Finally, I find that it strains the use of language to because it will change behaviour and will benefit one describe this Bill as a bridge to reform. As a sceptic, the group of people but not another. Another perverse hon. Member for South Thanet made the best possible incentive was mentioned on Second Reading by the case for supporting the Bill but, whatever happens to it, hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman)—it will we must all be committed to a more fundamental provide a disincentive to people who are considering reform of the system. I think that we are all agreed on insuring to protect themselves in old age. that. Another danger, or consequence, of the fact that the I want to repeat the case that I made on Second proposal is a partial solution is the inherent unfairness Reading. In this pre-election period, there is a real and in the Bill. Why should we choose to support and overwhelming need for all parties to put aside their provide free care to one group of people—those with differences and to join in a process charged specifically 655 Personal Care at Home Bill12 JANUARY 2010 Personal Care at Home Bill 656

[Norman Lamb] human rights. The policy justification that the Government have offered for the Bill does not stack up as a defence with building and achieving consensus on this matter. I against the concern that they made explicit in the know that that would be supported massively by those explanatory memorandum to the Bill. There remains a groups outside Parliament who represent people with set of unanswered questions about the Bill. real care needs. Such a consensus would have the benefit My second set of concerns relate to the policy of facilitating reform in the next Parliament, and it implications of the introduction of the group of people would also put pressure on whoever wins the next who will benefit from free social care. The Minister election to ensure that reform takes place. rightly said in his presentation that we should not let the The hon. Member for South Thanet is absolutely best be the enemy of the good, that we must allow for right to say that the urgency of completing the reform incremental change and so on. I entirely agree with him process is overwhelming. We must not allow this Bill to about that, but it does not absolve the Government delay that. from the need to think about the policy implications of what they do today when projected forward to tomorrow. 9.38 pm Last July the Government said clearly that we could Mr. Tom Clarke: I think that I have listened to every not afford a solution on personal care that landed the speech and contribution made today, and I have found cost on the taxpayer. That is in the Green Paper in a them extremely stimulating. Far from objecting to the rather convoluted form, and the Minister confirmed Committee stage being taken on the Floor of this today that that remains the Government’s view, yet as a House, I take the view that we ought to do this much consequence of the Bill, a group of people is created in more often. I do not think that it takes away from the the middle of the social care requirement for whom that scrutiny performed in Committee upstairs, but I believe outcome is what the Government are now seeking to that people might get involved in what we do here to a legislate—tax-funded free social care—not, as the Minister greater extent if we had more of the transparency to said several times in loose wording, for the most vulnerable, which this Bill has been subjected today. but for the second most vulnerable group. I welcome the Bill, and I also welcome the contributions The most vulnerable are those with critical care needs, made by the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the who need residential care. Those are still subject to Member for Corby (Phil Hope). A few harsh things means-testing under the Government’s intended solution. have been said about him, but I have many relatives in Below them in the hierarchy of need is the group that the steel industry down in his area and they will be has been identified by the Prime Minister as the people supporting him. They do not say that he does not who should benefit from free social care. Then there is distinguish his post, because he so clearly does. I am the whole of the rest of the social care group. It is a sure that they are proud to have him as their Member of golden rule of policy that if a group of people is created Parliament. in the middle of a much larger group, all of whom Briefly, I should like to thank the House for the benefit from broadly the same type of care with constantly involvement of people with learning disabilities. For all changing requirements, the result is a change in behaviour. those who will benefit because they need personal care What the Government have done is create a group of at home, the Bill is progressive, meaningful and welcome. people—a very small group, when seen in the context of Although we heard threats about what might happen all those who benefit from social care—to whom they in another place, I hope that people such as Lord have offered the promise of free social care, which is Morris and Lord Ashley and many others there will precisely the policy solution that the Government, quite recognise the progressive nature of the Bill and will see rightly in my view, ruled out in their Green Paper. By that the Government and many organisations have doing that, if the Bill reaches the statute book and is welcomed the provisions. I believe that they will welcome actioned next October, they will have created a huge the fact that at this stage in our Parliament we have policy problem for the evolution of social care policy in given such prominence to something so profoundly a way that is consistent with the principles rightly set important. I hope that that will be a beacon and a signal out in the Green Paper last summer. of the relevance that we give these matters in the next Parliament, when I expect to be speaking from the same Andy Burnham: I am listening carefully to the right spot. hon. Gentleman and I have great respect for the work that he did as Secretary of State for Health. Does he 9.40 pm acknowledge, however, that the group of people he is Mr. Dorrell: I begin a brief speech by congratulating identifying, with whom the Bill deals, have already been the Minister on the way that he dealt with the Bill. He paying for their care out of their own pockets as their put the best gloss possible on it, as I have not the condition has deteriorated over the years? For that slightest doubt that the Bill was generated in No. 10 reason, the Bill is consistent with the reforms in which Downing street and imposed on his Department against individuals pay something towards their own care, but its advice. I have been there, so I congratulate him on do not have to bear the whole cost, which can in some presenting a defence of what is, in policy terms, an cases be catastrophically high, as we know. The right indefensible measure. hon. Gentleman seems to have no appreciation that I shall go through the three key arguments, which are these are people who will already have paid out a large in many ways similar to those set out by the hon. amount towards the cost of their own care. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), to which I do not believe the Minister responded adequately Mr. Dorrell: Of course I have an appreciation of that, during the debate, despite his polished performance. but I would like the Secretary of State to consider how The first is the argument about the convention on he is going to explain to that same group of people who 657 Personal Care at Home Bill 12 JANUARY 2010 658 have paid out under the current regime that they will get Business without Debate free personal care when they are in their own home, but, as their care needs become more exaggerated and they have to go into residential care, they will have to start paying again. How is he going to explain that to them? DELEGATED LEGISLATION That will be the consequence of the policy prescription Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that he is introducing. Order No. 118(6)), I have three concerns about the Bill, as I have said. The first is the human rights implication. The second is HEALTH CARE AND ASSOCIATED PROFESSIONS the implication for broader social care delivery of the introduction of free care for this group of people. The That the draft General and Specialist Medical Practice (Education, Training and Qualifications) Order 2010, which was laid before third echoes the question raised by my hon. Friend the this House on 18 November, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) and the hon. Member for North Norfolk: where is the money coming Question agreed to. from? The Government say that this will involve Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing £500 million, but I do not believe that. I certainly do not Order No. 118(6)), believe that it will be £500 million when the behavioural impact has been taken into account. TAXES At a time of huge competition for resources, the That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Department has been landed with bad policy by the Enforcement (Luxembourg) Order 2009, which was laid before Prime Minister, which will lead to resources being this House on 23 November, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) channelled to a particular group of people. Those people Question agreed to. are very deserving—I do not deny that. I accept that they will benefit, and that they have contributed substantially Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing to their care. They will suddenly receive that care free Order No. 118(6)), for as long as they do not need to be in residential care. Of course they will be significant beneficiaries, but seen TAXES in the context of the pressure on resources that the Government of this country—whoever they are—will That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Qatar) Order 2009, which was laid before this have to address, over not just the next six to 12 months House on 23 November, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) but the next five years, this seems to be bad policy which has been made on the hoof and will have all kinds of Question agreed to. long-term negative consequences that have not been Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing thought through. I entirely agree with the criticisms of Order No. 118(6)), the Bill that have been articulated by Lord Lipsey, and I rest my case on his presentation of the case. TAXES That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Libya) Order 2009, which was laid before this 9.48 pm House on 23 November, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Laura Moffatt: I do not care where the Bill was born Question agreed to. or who dreamt it up; I am just extremely glad that I have stuck with it, right from the early days of the consultation paper when I considered these matters with my constituents. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT My constituents do not care either; they are just very That the draft Asian Development Bank (Further Payments to pleased that we are able to be here today, giving the Bill Capital Stock) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on a Third Reading. They believe that this is the right thing 24 November, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) to do. Question agreed to. It is easy to over-complicate the Bill. It is also easy to spend a whole day doing down its aims and objectives. We know, however, that it will benefit a significant DELEGATED LEGISLATION number of people. Most of us—certainly those of us, Ordered, on both sides of the House, who have taken a serious, forensic interest in the Bill from the word go—will That the Major Accident Off-Site Emergency Plan (Management of Waste from Extractive Industries) (England and Wales) Regulations completely understand that we would love to move 2009 (S.I., 2009, No. 1927), dated 16 July 2009, be referred to a straight to a national care system. Anyone who has Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Mr. Blizzard.) worked in the care system, as I have, will know that that is our objective. I have to say, however, that the one true thing that the Bill does is to send a clear signal to our constituents that this Government are very keen to BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE ensure that people receive the care that they need, free Ordered, at the point of use, with the reassurance that they will That, at the sitting on Thursday 14 January, notwithstanding be able to live their lives out in their homes if that is Standing Order No. 20 (Time for taking private business) the what they want. And that is what they want. Private Business set down by the Chairman of Ways and Means Question put and agreed to. may be entered upon at any hour, and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, for three hours, after which the Speaker Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. shall interrupt the business.—(Mr. Blizzard.) 659 Business without Debate 12 JANUARY 2010 660

PETITION Student Finance Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House New Ferry Butterfly Park do now adjourn.—(Mr. Blizzard.) 9.50 pm 9.51 pm Ben Chapman (Wirral, South) (Lab): The many residents of Wirral, South, and people beyond, have contacted Mrs. Janet Dean (Burton) (Lab): I am grateful for the me to express their concern for the future of the much-loved opportunity to raise what I believe is an unfair and, butterfly park in New Ferry, which is threatened with indeed, immoral situation regarding how we treat students closure. Our community is united in support of this who become seriously ill during their studies. invaluable local asset, which is also used by groups Students who develop serious illness, such as cancer, across the wider region. are currently expected to use their student loans to The petition states: support themselves during their period of illness and The Petition of residents of Wirral South and others, treatment. I believe that this is unfair. It is distressing Declares that the Petitioners object to the threatened closure of enough for such young people and their families to have New Ferry Butterfly Park. to fight serious life-threatening illness, such as cancer, without having the need to abandon their university The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural courses. They need the hope and expectation of returning Affairs to encourage Wirral Council and others to do all they can to their studies when they recover. They want to maintain to secure the retention of the Butterfly Park. their place at university, and yet if they suspend, rather And the Petitioners remain, etc. than abandon their courses, they are deemed to have income from their student loans. Students are not entitled [P000699] to claim benefits for 28 weeks, and even after that period, their student loan is taken into account when calculating their benefits. They are deemed to have their student loan even if they do not draw it down. Ultimately, if the treatment is successful and the student recovers to return to university to complete their course, they will have four years of student loan to repay for a three-year degree course. That cannot be right. This important issue was raised with me in November 2007 by my constituent, Mr. Ian Leech, on behalf of his 20-year-old daughter, Melissa, who had been diagnosed in August of that year with non-Hodgkin lymphoma. Melissa was a student at Aston university and had been due to begin her third year of studies in September 2007. Mr. Leech contacted me because Melissa’s application for income support had been refused because she was treated as if she was merely taking a gap year from university. The response from my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Plaskitt), who was then Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Department for Work and Pensions, explained as follows: “generally, full-time students are not entitled to benefit for the duration of their course, including the vacations. This is because primary financial support for students comes from the educational maintenance system, which is designed for their needs, unlike the social security system”. His reply went on to say: “However if a student is sick for more than 28 weeks, they may be entitled to Income Support and/or Housing Benefit as a disabled student, as long as they satisfy the incapacity test, of course, any income, including a student grant and loan, will be taken into account when calculating benefit entitlement.” He also explained: “If a person qualifies for DLA they are then classed as a disabled student which would give entitlement to Income Support as well as the Disability Premium”. I acknowledge that my hon. Friend was trying to be helpful, but of course unless someone is classified as terminally ill, there is a wait of three months for them to become eligible for disability living allowance. I was most grateful for the meeting that I had with my hon. Friend, who recognised the problem and kindly wrote to Melissa in March 2008 saying that he was 661 Student Finance12 JANUARY 2010 Student Finance 662 aware of other people with similar problems. He promised But she went on to say: to have discussions about how the system could be “However, in the current economic climate, every new initiative is improved and wrote to me in May 2008: being scrutinised and so far it has not been possible to secure the “Officials are working on the detail of changing the deeming necessary funding to implement the change. Officials will continue rules so that students who become seriously ill and have not to press on with this, but I cannot promise an early resolution.” drawn down their student loan are not penalised”. You will understand, Mr. Speaker, that both Ian He added: Leech and myself were disappointed by that. After “Assuming there are no major legal obstacles, we hope to further correspondence with Ministers I was grateful implement a change to the regulations later this year”. that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Higher Sadly, Melissa lost her great battle and died in May Education and Intellectual Property agreed to meet me, 2008 supported by her caring mother, father and sister. together with my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick Ian Leech has carried on his fight on behalf of other and Leamington. students in a similar position, and I should like to pay tribute to him for all his work in raising awareness of 10 pm the condition and for his continued campaign to see Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). fairness for students such as Melissa. His efforts in highlighting the plight of those with non-Hodgkin’s Motion made and Question proposed, That this House lymphoma have been recognised in each of the last two do now adjourn.—(Mr. Blizzard.) years by the Lymphoma Association. Mrs. Dean: After the meeting in March 2009, the Mr. Leech recognises that the problem of student Minister wrote to the Department for Work and Pensions support is complicated and that there are grey areas. In in support of changes to the benefit rules for those who July 2008, he put forward suggestions for income support are absent from their course because of long-term illness, to become available for the term following the diagnosis but who remain enrolled at their university so that they of serious illness. For example, if someone was diagnosed would not be classified as being in full-time education in November they would use the rest of their student loan for benefit purposes. for that term until December and then be eligible for income In June 2009, better news came from the Treasury in support. Mr. Leech recognised that there were complications a letter from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, which in relation to payment for student accommodation, said that which is paid in advance in some cases, and in relation to “in current economic circumstances, all new policy changes need loans for tuition fees paid in advance in the autumn. to be thoroughly scrutinised, and affordability must be assured, However, it would be possible for a pro rata proportion before any commitments can be made. I will, however, look to be refunded by the university to the Student Loans carefully at the case for this change as part of the Pre-Budget Company if someone’s studies were suspended. Report.” I recognise that it is important to distinguish students This was confirmed to me in a letter from my hon. who have a few weeks away from their studies because of Friend the Work and Pensions Minister in August 2009 ill health from those who have to take a year off because in which she says: of serious ill health and treatment. If students are sick “Treasury officials have said that they would be willing to for a short time they can catch up with their studies consider implementing the change in the next Pre-Budget Report”. without any extra cost to themselves, whereas those Sadly, changes were not announced in the pre-Budget taking a year to recover from illness need to repay at report, even though I know that my hon. Friend the least an extra year of student loan. It should not be too Minister pressed the Treasury for the funding to implement difficult to establish a system that enables medical evidence this much needed change following our meeting early in to be used to distinguish those with short-term illness November. from those who need to suspend their studies for a year. Students who become seriously ill are still suffering Unfortunately, the hoped-for changes that my hon. because the current system lets them down. As Mr. Leech Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington referred said to me, a student should not be expected to have to to in his letter to me in May 2008 have yet to be endure a long-term illness and use money to live on that achieved. Some changes were made for students who they then have to repay. As he says, that does not apply abandon their course or are dismissed from it, but not to the employed, the unemployed or the retired. Students for those who have to suspend it. Indeed, the changes are being singled out and persecuted. He also believes made for those abandoning their course reflect the that the human rights of students with long-term illnesses suggestions made by Mr. Leech. The Social Security are being violated because they are treated differently (Students and Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations from other members of society. 2008 mean that since August that year, when a student Because of Ian Leech’s campaign, students contact abandons or is dismissed from their course, the Department him from around the country through the Lymphoma for Work and Pensions takes into account only the Association, and one such student, Blair Ward, wants quarter that the loan is meant to cover—or if the loan is her story told. Blair says: paid in two or more instalments in the quarter, the “Not only am I a student at the University of Central Lancashire, period of the quarter that the instalment is meant to Preston, but I also work part-time as a cashier at Asda at cover—not the whole year. weekends. When I was diagnosed, I didn’t work enough hours at In November 2008, I received a response from the Asda to receive sick pay, so I contacted Macmillan who suggested new Minister at the Department for Work and Pensions, I claim for Employment Allowance”— my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Kitty Ussher), I believe that she means employment support allowance. reassuring me: She continues: “We believe that there is a strong case for changing the deemed “I filled out all the relevant forms and obtained the supporting income rule for students who have not drawn down their student evidence, only to be rejected as a result of my still having a funding, fall seriously ill and need to suspend their studies.” position on my degree course and being classed as a full-time 663 Student Finance12 JANUARY 2010 Student Finance 664

[Mrs. Dean] When I had a go at trying to resolve the problem, it suffered a bit of ping-pong between the DWP and the student, even though I wasn’t able to attend university, as I was education Department. There was an argument over taking time out to receive treatment. Therefore I wasn’t receiving who was going to pick up the tab, and for a while there any income from either Asda or the Student Loan Company. was an argument over the numbers, but those are not I appealed against this decision stating that I wasn’t receiving critical issues and they can be resolved with continuing any student finance and that I had had no income for over commitment from the two Departments. 9 months, but again I was unsuccessful. I had to use a huge amount of my savings to buy new clothes for the winter, spring I have three brief points to make before the Minister and summer months, as a result of my gaining several stones in responds. First, I agree that the numbers are small. weight, which was due to the course of steroids I was put on as Therefore, the cost of making the adjustment that is part of my treatment. I also had to pay for petrol and the general required is also small. Will she commit to trying to running costs of my car to get to the hospital appointments.” determine the numbers? Universities UK probably has Thankfully Blair has now returned to university, but her the information, but neither my hon. Friend the Member experience describes how it can be more costly to be ill, for Burton nor I have managed to flush it out. If the with expenses such as travel and personal items, such as Minister undertook to make that inquiry, we could clothes. establish the numbers. In that way, we would be certain Serious ill health is difficult to cope with at any age, about the potential cost of the small change that is but for young people and their families it is particularly required. tragic. It is bad enough coping with the stress of diagnosis Secondly, I do not believe that a solution is difficult and treatment without the added pressure of the unfairness to find. I hope that the pass the parcel between the two of the benefits system for students. All Departments Departments comes to an end. All we need is to agree in now accept that unfairness. regulations a specification of serious illness, which I do No one seems to know how many students have to not think is too difficult to establish. We would then suspend their studies because of serious illness; however, have to make the necessary regulatory alteration to numbers are likely to be small. It is likely that the allow students who have had to come off their courses numbers who have to suspend their courses is less than because they have been diagnosed with such illnesses those who abandon or are dismissed from their courses access to income support benefits. I am confident that and have been helped by the Social Security (Students that can be worked out. and Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2008. The Thirdly, I welcome the 2008 regulatory change, as proposal from the DWP is that employment support does my hon. Friend the Member for Burton, but I allowance for students who suspend their studies because think it odd to make that change, which was a concession of serious ill health be treated in a similar way. I within the benefits system for students who decided for welcome that proposal and urge my hon. Friend the some reason to leave their course, or who were ejected Minister to ensure that a way is found to achieve justice from their course, so that they could access the benefits for students with serious illness. It would be immoral, system, yet not make the change for students who leave unfair and unjust not to address the problem. their course not through their own will, but because they have been diagnosed with a serious illness. They have been given no choice medically but to come off 10.4 pm their course, yet we say that there is no benefit support Mr. James Plaskitt (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): for them. At the same time, we say that there is benefit I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burton support for someone who comes off their course for (Mrs. Dean) on raising this issue and I thank her for some arbitrary reason. That has made the situation still allowing me an opportunity to make a brief speech. I less defensible than it was before. The 2008 changes in appreciate the fact that she has persevered and persisted the regulations were a wholly understandable reform, with the issue—she has spoken eloquently about it on a but they have had the slightly perverse effect of making number of occasions, including tonight. I also acknowledge the injustice we are talking about even more stark. the contribution of Ian Leech, who has campaigned Let me conclude by saying that I wish that I had admirably and with great foresight. managed to get the problem sorted out. I have great As my hon. Friend said, she brought Melissa’s case to admiration for the fact that my hon. Friend has persisted me when I was responsible for this area of the benefits with her campaign. I have tried to help as she has gone system in the Department for Work and Pensions. I along, but this is essentially an issue on which she has initially took the official line, as Ministers invariably do, taken the lead, and in an admirable way. The problem is which she quoted. However, after she came to meet me not difficult, and I think that the solution is obvious. We to discuss Melissa’s case in some detail, I came to the have got close to implementing it on two or three conclusion that the regulations were quite simply wrong occasions. I hope that before this Parliament ends we and indefensible. That is how the process of trying to will hear from the Minister that there is a commitment remedy and correct the situation began. Unfortunately, from the Department to getting what is a justifiable I left the DWP before the task was completed. and urgent reform over the last hurdle and actually In my view, this has been a story of a completely implementing it. justifiable reform repeatedly getting up to the last fence before for some reason falling. I hope that we do not 10.10 pm have to persuade the Government that the reform needs The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work to take place—the research has been done and the case and Pensions (Helen Goodman): I, too, would like to has been made. It is simply a matter of having the will to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burton get over that last fence to remedy this clear injustice, (Mrs. Dean) on securing the debate. Let me say how which I hope will happen before this Parliament ends. much I appreciate her concern and the effort that she 665 Student Finance12 JANUARY 2010 Student Finance 666 has expended in taking up the issue, which stems from made, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Burton the particularly distressing case of Melissa Leech. As pointed out, is not the whole year, but the quarter my hon. Friend said, Melissa’s father Ian has also during which the request for welfare help has been campaigned vigorously for students who suffer from made. We introduced that change in August 2008 in severe illness that causes them to halt their studies. My order not to penalise those who had had to give up their hon. Friend outlined the details of Melissa’s case and courses. At the moment, this applies only if the student subsequent death, and made an eloquent case, which ceases to be a student; if they do not cease to be one, deserves the fullest understanding. She has also been they are not under current rules able to claim benefits. persistent in pressing the issue of support for students This is what my hon. Friend wants to see changed. who find themselves in such circumstances. I was also My hon. Friend raised the issue of deeming income. pleased to hear the perspective of my predecessor, my We have a deeming rule for all customers who wish to hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington access benefits. Let me explain why we need to deem (Mr. Plaskitt). I had not realised how long the discussion available income when it might not have been taken up. had been going on, so I was pleased to have his input Benefits are payable only when no other income is into this debate. reasonably available, so there are strict rules covering Let me begin by explaining what financial support is the availability and use of income. For example, someone currently available for students, including those who fall who has money but disposes of it may be disallowed ill and are unable to continue their studies because of from benefit because they are considered to have disposed their illness. As hon. Members will know, the social of it in order to claim benefit. Similarly, someone able security regulations were changed in 1990. The automatic to obtain financial support from elsewhere but does not entitlement of full-time students of 19 or over to jobseeker’s do so and then claims benefit may be disallowed because allowance, income support and housing benefit was they have other resources available. Anyone who wishes removed at that point. The Government believe that to receive benefits must first show that they have taken those who want to take the route of full-time study up any available financial support. In the case of students, should become the responsibility of the education system this will be the student loan. and should therefore not normally be eligible for income- I do appreciate that a student faced with the appalling related benefits. That is to avoid duplication of financial knowledge of a possibly fatal illness may want to keep support. their status as a student in order to hold out some hope That policy happened to coincide with the introduction, for the future. The difficulty at the moment is that there by the then Department of Education and Science, of are clear rules covering students, the clearest being that top-up loans for students and student access funds, full-time students are not entitled to benefit, including which allow colleges to give discretionary payments in during the vacation period. cases of hardship. More recently, the Government have Let me turn to what we could do to improve the introduced the maintenance grant and the special support situation for students in these difficult circumstances. grant, which are available to those who need help with As a start, I feel we can go a long way to alleviating the accommodation and other living costs. They are grants, problems for students who find themselves in such not loans, which have to be repaid. The special support difficult circumstances by making sure, as far as we can, grant is available to those who receive income support that they get the right advice at the right time. If or housing benefit. The Government have concluded that students and those who advise them are better informed the education system is best placed to provide the about the financial support available to them in a range primary financial support needed for the entire period of circumstances then students will be better placed to of a student’s course of study. Such support is designed deal with the financial issues, should they fall seriously specifically to meet the needs of students, unlike the ill. welfare system. However, in recognition of the fact that My officials have been working with their opposite some students have expenses unconnected with their numbers in the Department for Business, Innovation study, those in vulnerable groups retain an entitlement and Skills to improve guidance to universities so that to benefits. They include student couples with children, students receive clear and consistent advice. They have lone parents, disabled students and people aged 60 or also taken advice from the National Association of over. Student Money Advisers. I would stress the importance When a student falls ill, they can be absent from their of students contacting their college advisers and their course for up to 60 days and remain eligible for student student union as soon as possible, and Jobcentre Plus if finance. If they need extra help, their university or the student feels that they may be able to claim welfare college can make payments from its access to learning support. There is a good deal of useful information for fund during that period. If a student is ill for more than students on the Directgov website. 60 days, their local authority can choose to continue I appreciate that arrangements for supporting full-time paying them student finance, as long as they remain higher education students can be far from clear and enrolled on their course. However, they may be too ill to straightforward. For example, we make exceptions in continue their course and may need to abandon it. the benefits system for certain groups that are considered When a student has to abandon their course and needs to be vulnerable, whether they be students or not. Each to apply for welfare benefits, we treat them just as we of those exceptions brings its own particular circumstances are required to treat any other person. We must take that have to be taken into account. This inevitably adds into account their financial resources and any resource to the complexity of the financial support system. that may be available to them. In the case of a student, Particularly in the light of what has been said this that is usually a student loan, which is the main means evening, I think it is an appropriate time to consider of financial support for the majority of students. We whether there is any way that we can simplify and take into account the period for which the loan has been improve the transparency of the arrangements. I will 667 Student Finance12 JANUARY 2010 Student Finance 668

[Helen Goodman] do not need to explore in great detail how many there actually are. I do not think that the cost to the Exchequer explore ways forward with BIS, education providers would be a significant barrier to securing the change. and student representative bodies. I want to make positive progress without complicating I appreciate my hon. Friend’s case for dropping the the system. If a change to the current deeming provision deeming principle in some cases, and I understand that is to work properly, we must have a clear understanding additional costs to the Exchequer are not likely to be of which types of illness—mental or physical—genuinely large, as such cases are few and far between. prevent someone from continuing their studies for a period of time, and we must be able to define those Mrs. Dean: I am grateful to the Minister for saying circumstances clearly so that both our customers and that she is going to look at how we can move this our benefits advisers understand the regulations. forward, but does she accept that it is likely that there I will ask my officials to speak to our medical colleagues will be far fewer students who have to suspend because and lawyers, and to seek their help in setting out clear of illness than there will be those who give up or are criteria for an easement of the rules. We will also ensure dismissed from their courses, who can claim benefits that the representative student bodies and university more or less straight away? Does she see the unfairness? authorities have an input, and will use the time available Does she accept that students who want that hope of to us to spread awareness of the issues as widely as going back to a course—indeed, in most cases, they possible. I want to be sure that if we make a change we probably do—should not have to give it up, but should get it absolutely right, and avoid in future the kind of be able to suspend it for a year? distress caused in Melissa Leech’s case. Question put and agreed to. Helen Goodman: I do understand the unfairness to which my hon. Friend refers. I was about to say that the 10.21 pm number of cases like this are so small that we probably House adjourned. 167WH 12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 168WH Westminster Hall The letter says: “I am writing on behalf of my husband. They do not think he will last until next week. We are just Tuesday 12 January 2010 waiting for the Army to fly in my two sons tomorrow and then they will increase the morphine and he will not be lucid. They say he is fading fast. [MRS.JOAN HUMBLE in the Chair] The first thing he said this morning was, ‘The DWP has won. I am going to die before they cough up…’ The rest is unprintable.” Exportable Benefits My first question to the Minister is how many more UK citizens now living within the EU or in Switzerland Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting will have to die without receiving the benefits to which be now adjourned.—(Jonathan Shaw.) they are entitled, while this Government remain in breach of the law? 9.30 am The Minister is aware that this is not the first occasion Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): Good morning, on which I have raised this issue in debate. He is aware Mrs. Humble. I am grateful for the opportunity to raise that I have tabled parliamentary questions to his this issue and I hope that my voice will last long enough Department and have challenged the Prime Minister for me to place my concerns on the record. orally on the subject at Prime Minister’s Question Time. Simon Morgan e-mailed me just before Christmas. The Minister may find that he has a personal interest He told me that his father had died on 12 December in this matter. Another claimant has written from his 2009. Chris Morgan and his wife had lived in Alicante home in France to Revenue and Customs, declining to in Spain and were endeavouring to secure the payment pay his tax. That claimant says: of exportable benefits. Let me quote from an article “For over six years I have been denied the Disability Living written by Chris Morgan for the Costa Blanca News in Allowance to which I am entitled under judgement of the European May 2009. Court of Justice. I am very disabled and losing my sight, yet the DWP continues to squabble with the European Commission, “In the past, the Department of Work and Pensions…decided which is now taking” that anyone who was receiving a disability living allowance, carer’s allowance or attendance allowance and moved to another Her Majesty’s Government EU country would not receive this allowance. In 2005, a ‘test’ case “to court for failure to pay British citizens living in the EU the was put before the European Court of Justice…in an attempt to” sickness benefits to which they are entitled under Community law. secure these benefit payments for This sickness benefit would be tax-free, and exceeds the amount of my private pension, which you tax—like rubbing salt into an “non-UK residents. On the 18th October 2007, the ECJ ruled open wound.” against the UK but for the next 18 months the DWP procrastinated,” saying Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate “‘We are considering the legal implications of a decision by the my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on the work European Court of Justice and will inform you of the outcome he has done over a considerable length of time in when the result is known.’ In March this year”— sticking up for the unfortunate British citizens who have that is, 2009— been so shamefully and dishonourably treated by the “we were informed by the DWP…that they were now able to look Government. at our case. The letter went on to say, ‘The ECJ have decided that Several of my constituents reside in Spain on doctor’s certain UK disability benefits are to be considered sickness benefits. orders—my hon. Friend mentioned that earlier—because This means that they will be paid to some people who leave the living in a warmer climate helps their disability. Recently, UK to live in another EEA state or Switzerland.’ The letter— with the collapse of the pound against the euro, their to Chris Morgan— financial situation has become much more urgent and “then states, ‘The decision affects Disability Living Allowance that has added to the trouble faced by my constituents, (care component only), Attendance Allowance and Carer’s Allowance. my hon. Friend’s constituents and those of all other These benefits can now be paid’” Members. if you satisfy “‘certain eligibility conditions’…from a letter we received at the Mr. Gale: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his end of April…it would appear that the DWP have shut the door kind comments and his support: he, in common with a on ALL those, like us, who are already living abroad because this number of Members on both sides of the House, is latest letter states, ‘As you had not been present…in Great Britain seeking justice for that group of people. for 26 weeks out of the previous 52 on the day you asked us to look at the decision again, you cannot get Attendance Allowance’”. As I said in the summer Adjournment debate—I will put it on the record again because it is relevant—setting The late Chris Morgan, eight months ago, summed up aside the matter of law, which we will come to in a the Government’s shameful position precisely and they moment, there is an impression abroad that the people have been wriggling on the hook ever since. we are talking about are rich, have gone to the sun, The UK/EU Disability & Carers Group, based in saying, “The hell with the United Kingdom”, and live Northern France, wrote to the Prime Minister recently, in splendid retirement with big yachts and lots of drink, saying: and that they do not need any benefits. My hon. Friend “While you are busy deciding when you are going to comply has made the point that a huge number of those people with the European Court of Justice ruling…we…have received…the have gone south for the benefit of their health, because following message from the wife of one our members who resides they have respiratory or other conditions, and are eking in Spain, having gone there on doctor’s” out an existence. The other important point, to which I orders will return, is that they have been UK citizens and “with the hope that it would prolong his life—as it did.” taxpayers, and many still are. 169WH Exportable Benefits12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 170WH

[Mr. Gale] I should like to know why. The infringement proceedings are in the public domain; why is the Government’s The chap I mentioned a moment ago who wrote to response not in the public domain? Revenue and Customs lived—his family and all their The clue might be found in the tardy answer, sent on friends still live—in the parliamentary constituency of 17 December, from the Prime Minister in response to Chatham and Aylesford. Some 50 Members of Parliament my oral question to him on 11 November. It took the from all parties have a constituency interest in this man in No. 10 more than a month to be able to tell me: subject, and I hope and believe that more of them will “We have carefully considered the application of the 26 out of join us later this morning. 52 weeks ‘past presence’ requirement and believe it to be compatible Many of the claimants have appealed against the with European Community law.” DWP ruling. That is why they have sought the support So I guess that is what we said in reply to the Commission. of their UK Members of Parliament. I believe that the Perhaps it is a pity that instead of relying on his appeal process has been deliberately spun out by the hapless junior Minister for advice, the Prime Minister Department. On 3 December 2009, my constituent, did not read the Commission website for himself. It John Hamilton, noted that the Directgov website had states: been revised to read: “British authorities require the claimant to have spent 26 of “The Department for Work and Pensions…has selected a the previous 52 weeks in the UK...This requirement goes against small number of these appeals…(known as lead cases). These the European rules coordinating social security benefits and have been sent for tribunal hearings. The DWP has requested that justifies the Commission’s decision to start an infringement procedure”. similar cases are suspended until the tribunal has made a decision. Nothing could be clearer. The Government of the United It is expected that the tribunal will not hear these cases until Kingdom are coldly and deliberately acting outside January 2010 at the earliest.” European law. That fact is confirmed by Jackie Morin, That is despite the fact that on 20 November 2009, a member of the Commission’s staff, in a letter to my tribunal Judge Jeremy Bennett ruled: constituent John Hamilton dated 3 December 2009. “The Tribunal Service at Sutton shall establish the availability Quite simply, the Government are in breach of the of the parties and their representatives before listing, subject to law and they are disingenuously using weasel words and the proviso that the hearing must take place in January 2010 unless directed otherwise by a Judge hearing this case.” artifice to try to deny to sick, elderly UK citizens who have served this country—many of them in the armed That was translated by Daniel Vickery, Social Security forces—and who have paid their dues throughout their and Child Support Appeals tribunals team leader at working lives the money owing to them. Sutton into the following request: The situation gets worse. Overnight, I received an “Could you please provide me with your availability for January and February.” e-mail on the matter. Unfortunately, I have not been able to go back to the person who sent it to me to secure My constituent, John Hamilton, has now been told to consent to name them, so I shall have to hand it to look at dates at the beginning of March, so Judge Hansard on the understanding that for the moment Bennett’s ruling is effectively being pushed into the long their anonymity is protected. The e-mail states: grass. “In June last year (2009) I received a letter from the DWP Debt In the meantime, what of the grounds for the Collection for what they describe as an overpayment of £3,800 for Government’s continued defiance of the ECJ ruling—the Carers Allowance…I explained…that I had not left the UK so-called past presence test, requiring a claimant to permanently in August 2004”— have lived in the United Kingdom for 26 of the previous the date to which the attempted reclaim related— 52 weeks to be eligible to claim? In response to one of “had sold our property then, rented afterwards, and the pensions my earlier parliamentary questions back in June, the department were informed of change of address, and” Minister asserted: that I “The Department is already complying with the European “had taken permanent residence in France at the beginning of Court of Justice ruling on the payment of exportable disability March 2006. The lady I spoke to said she would call me back the benefits.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 680W.] following week, but did not…I received no phone call. I have We now know that statement to have been ill-advised. received no correspondence until today.” The European Commission website states: That was 11 January. The e-mail continued: “The European Commission has decided to take legal action “My allowance was stopped at that time”— against the United Kingdom for not paying certain benefits”— March 2006— exportable DLA, attendance allowance and carer’s “and my husband, who is 72 years old and had suffered a massive allowance— heart attack (leaving his heart working at 70 per cent.), has “to EU citizens residing abroad.” diabetes, diverticular disease, asthma, arthritis and…mobility Abroad in this case means within the European Union problems as a result…was awarded Attendance Allowance for life in 2003. I had to leave my full time job to become a £50 a week full or Switzerland. On 9 October, the Commission addressed time carer. Today I received a letter stating if I do not repay this a letter of formal notice to the UK authorities. The amount”— British Government had two months to respond. That £3,800— is the first stage of what is called the infringement “by the 19th of this month legal action will commence…we do procedure. not have any money, the house we live in belongs to our daughter” The British Government did reply within two months— and we just. However, in response to my question asking for “have no savings. We receive £160 per week which includes an sight of that response, the Minister for Pensions and the allowance for me as a ‘wife’, and our daughter and son in law help Ageing Society said: us out financially. We do not even own a car. There is no way we “Correspondence between the European Commission and the can afford to repay…money, which I believe I do not owe anyway…as member states…on such cases is generally regarded…as we are waiting for reinstatement of our benefits, which we have confidential”.—[Official Report, 8 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 249W.] pursued since August 2006”. 171WH Exportable Benefits12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 172WH

Mr. Atkinson: In the case of my constituent, who their dues, done everything right, served in the armed comes from Northumberland and moved to Spain a forces, given their lives to this country—for this country long time ago, when the move took place, he was told in some cases—and in retirement have chosen to live that disability living allowance would have to stop and somewhere warmer and slightly more comfortable to he accepted that as one of the penalties of moving end their days. abroad. Then, when he discovered the result of the Those are the people we are talking about. Those are European judgment and reapplied for the allowance, he the people we are damaging. They are not ciphers or was told that he was out of court because of the past numbers—2,000 or 3,000. I do not care if there is only presence test; he had not lived in the UK for 26 weeks one of them; they deserve what the law says they are out of 52. This is a classic Catch-22 situation. He entitled to, and that is what the Government—our thought he had been deprived of disability living allowance, Government, my Government, the United Kingdom only to be told that if he was entitled to it, he could not Government—are denying. I am ashamed of that. have it because he did not pass the test as he had already I want to hear from the shadow Minister, my hon. moved from the United Kingdom. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper), that a Conservative Government will honour their legal Mr. Gale: I fear that the situation my hon. Friend undertaking, and ensure that those people receive the describes applies in many cases and I shall come in a money that is due to them or sadly, in some cases, to moment to what I believe may prove to be the Government’s their estates. It is open to the Minister, even now, to fall-back position, because I can see another area of recognise that the Government have acted shamefully wriggle room developing if we are not careful. and that they are wrong, and to agree this morning that I believe that the Minister is not only an honourable his Department will pay all the money due to those who but a decent man. I know him very well as a Kent have had benefits terminated when leaving the UK, and Member of Parliament, and outside the Chamber as a have subsequently submitted fresh claims from the EU friend. I also know that Ministers have to do the bidding country of their current residence. of their civil servants, the Secretary of State and the I want to clarify one further issue. For the avoidance Cabinet, and I know that the Cabinet is in turn leant on of doubt or misunderstanding, and to satisfy the claimants by the Treasury, which is seeking to save, for blindingly and the European Commission, any such payment, obvious reasons, every penny that is available. However, which I believe will have to be made, will have to be I hope that the Minister will believe that it is quite backdated to the date of termination or of first claim. wrong of his Department to send out threatening letters The Government can either choose to do that honourably to elderly and infirm people, seeking to claw back and graciously now, or wait for the European Commission’s money that they do not owe; not only that, they are infringement proceedings to take their course, be taken owed money by the United Kingdom Government. back to the European Court of Justice—during which time more claimants will die—be ruled against, and Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): I, too, pay tribute then fined and forced to pay. I hope that the Government to my hon. Friend’s doughty crusade on this matter. choose to settle. Has he any idea of the number of people involved and I said earlier that I could see wriggle room appearing the sums involved? if we did not nail the matter down now, and I shall not settle for back payment to the date of the most recent Mr. Gale: Information is very hard to come by. The claim. Those payments should not have been terminated Minister may be able to shed more light; he has access when people left the United Kingdom; they were lawful to figures that I do not have. I know roughly the number then. To be fair, the Government did not know that they of appeals that have been lodged. We are probably were lawful then and nor did we, which is why so many looking in total at between 2,000 and 3,000 cases across people did not appeal at the time. We now know, the whole European Union and Switzerland. The majority however, that they were lawful; that is what the European are in France and Spain or Majorca, and there are some Court of Justice said in its ruling. Any payments made in Greece and one or two others dotted around the will, therefore, have to be backdated to the date of European Union, but not many. With regard to the termination or of first claim. The Government have sums involved, the Minister is on record, I think, as been caught breaking the law, and they have to pay saying that this situation could lead to a sum rising to the bill. £50 million annually. I am not quite sure what the justification for that figure is, so I hope that the Minister 9.52 am will have time to explain to my hon. Friend, the expatriate community and me how those figures are arrived at. John Barrett (Edinburgh, West) (LD): I commend the However, that is not really the point, is it? The point hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale) on his is that there is a legal requirement on the Government passionate speech, in which he described many detailed to pay the money. The point is that we are not dealing and moving cases. I also congratulate him on his long with people who have come from overseas to the United track record on this matter, and on everything he has Kingdom and claim every benefit known to man, or the said today. He has done more than anyone to highlight kind of people who are reported on the front page of what is an all too familiar tale of a Department that is the Daily Express today as using the United Kingdom willing to use every trick in the book to avoid meeting as a social benefits milch cow by obtaining a national its legal and moral obligations. insurance number for future benefit use. We are not The hon. Gentleman has done an excellent job in talking about people like that. We are talking about framing the issue today, and I do not wish to go over people who have devoted their entire working lives to ground that he has already covered. However, it is the United Kingdom, who have paid their taxes, paid worth re-emphasising what we are not dealing with 173WH Exportable Benefits12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 174WH

[John Barrett] because the Government will not admit that their decision to remove benefits before then was wrong. The ruling here. As he said, this is not a tabloid-friendly tale of by the European Court was that people should be people from other European countries arriving in the entitled to receive those benefits. People who had their UK and claiming benefits, as has been reported in some benefits removed by the Government before the date of quarters. The men and women affected are from here the ruling should have them reinstated immediately, and have paid their taxes here, but are having their with backdating and a full apology. Instead, they are entitlement denied to them when they need it most. As told that unless they appealed within 13 months of has been said, they are not wealthy people. This cannot losing their benefit, they have no grounds for their be spun as part of a wider Government crackdown on benefit to be reinstated. Essentially, if they took the wealthy non-doms; the 2,000 to 3,000 or so people who Department for Work and Pensions at its word and are affected are generally elderly and manifestly in poor made the mistake of assuming that the Government health with advancing disability. They have paid their would act within EU law, they would miss out. Not only taxes and national insurance contributions and have that, but when someone writes to the Government to earned the right for help with their disabilities. Many of request that their benefit be reinstated they have to meet them have moved abroad not out of choice but on the eligibility criteria of having been resident in the UK medical advice. for at least 26 weeks out of the past 52. The very fact The reason to move to some place with warmer that their benefits were removed, means that they are weather at this time of year should be self-evident—it is already living abroad, so there is little prospect of tempting for the younger and the able-bodied, let alone meeting that criteria at any time. for those who have worked all their lives, such as an If I have misunderstood the situation, I invite the older couple I know who lived in Scotland. The man Minister to clarify it, but it seems as if every possible had worked for the Ministry of Defence until he retired effort has been made to construct artificial loopholes at 65. When he retired he was living in MOD housing, and roll after roll of red tape to keep vulnerable people and he and his wife decided to look around for warmer from receiving the help to which they are entitled. I weather and a reasonably economical place to live; they agree with the hon. Member for North Thanet that the decided to head for Spain. He had paid his dues all his Minister is a decent individual, but he is trying to life and had never asked for a penny, and for the defend the indefensible. It seems that Ministers have Government now to put so much effort into avoiding been making up the rules as they go along, and that is their responsibilities to them in this way is shameful. quite deplorable behaviour. The Government are avoiding those responsibilities, In the Minister’s winding-up speech, we need to hear but the job of Government is to provide fair and decent that this shameful saga will not be allowed to drag on treatment, particularly to the vulnerable and the disabled. into the next Parliament, although I doubt he will have When I was a local councillor, I had experience of a much say in that matter. It is an embarrassment that the local authority trying to deny individuals fair treatment. European Commission has seen no other option but to When elderly people fell in the streets, the first response take the UK Government to court to try to force us to they would get would be from loss adjusters who would meet our obligations. I appeal to the Minister to save try to put them off and imply that it was their fault. the time, expense and embarrassment of battling another Most people gave up and went away.We have a Government court case, and to instead announce today that the with a track record of denying for years a fair deal to benefits will be reinstated without further argument or investors in Equitable Life, despite the ruling of the details hidden in the small print. I would also like a firm ombudsman. Today we are dealing with benefits paid answer on how many people stand to be affected, and for by those who have worked all their lives—many of how much this will cost the Government—how much them never taking a penny. Many of them are ill and money the Government have withheld from them so far. some are disabled, and they have gone to live abroad, I would not be at all surprised if the money spent many for health reasons. They are being denied not fighting a legal battle in the European Court of Justice, something that can be argued about, but an entitlement. and now fighting the Commission, was not too different The question has been taken up at European Court a sum from that being held back from UK citizens. level. This is an entitlement, not something that is up Will the Minister also publish a copy of the Government’s for debate. The Court has decided: the Government response to the Commission’s letter of 9 October 2009, were found guilty, and in the run-up to the election the giving formal notice of legal proceedings? The Government Minister has a lot of explaining to do. have refused to make the letter public, citing confidentiality. The European Court of Justice ruling on 18 October Frankly, it is not a matter of national security. Those 2007 was very clear. It said that those eligible and in people—possibly thousands—missing money that is receipt of the care component of DLA, attendance rightfully theirs deserve to know whether the Government allowance and carer’s allowance should be able to continue are still attempting to wriggle out of their obligations. to receive those benefits when they leave the UK. That The Government have so often professed to be interested was because they were classed as “sickness cash benefits” in fairness; it ought to be a matter of shame for Labour under EU law. That ought to have been the final word Members here today that the matter has still not been on the issue, and the Government should have accepted resolved. the ruling and paid out the benefits. Instead, it seems People on low incomes who depend on such benefits that the ruling itself has been warped by the Department to make ends meet do not have time for endless pontification to create yet another loophole. from the DWP. As we heard this morning, some who We are now in the farcical position whereby claimants have fought the battle have lost not only the battle but, cannot have their benefits reinstated if they had them in the meantime, their lives. I hope that today’s debate removed before the European Court of Justice ruling, will have pressed home to the Minister how far there is 175WH Exportable Benefits12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 176WH to go before fairness is delivered to those people. I believe that the Government have moved at a slow pace. cannot help but feel that if the time and energy spent by My hon. Friend set that out well. However, the Government civil servants and the Government in devising ways to have not only moved a slow pace but have looked for avoid their obligations had been invested in finding a every opportunity to delay making a decision. fair solution, we would not be debating the issue today. The ECJ judgment was delivered on 18 October I hope that this is the last time that we do so. 2007. The Government responded reasonably quickly with a written statement to Parliament, saying that they 10.1 am would carefully consider the implications of that judgment. Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): It is a Within a week, one could not expect them to say pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs. Humble. anything else. In December, two months later, we heard I know that you take a great interest in matters relating only that the disability and carers service was “preparing to the Department for Work and Pensions, given the guidance”, and would give full details of eligibility nature of your constituency. I congratulate my hon. criteria in April. Not an awful lot had happened, especially Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale), who given what we had been told publicly, in two months. has been a long-standing campaigner on this subject. At the beginning of April 2008, five months after the He demonstrated his usual doughty fighting spirit on ECJ judgment, Parliament received a third written behalf of all who depend on Members of the House to statement. Again, we were told that details would be set speak for them. out on the website, and that officials were continuing I shall mention, as did my hon. Friend the Member their discussions with the European Commission. We for North Thanet, the UK/EU Disability and Carers still had to wait. Even five months after the decision, Group, a group of those affected by this problem. I the Government were still not able to set out the eligibility mention it for the Minister’s benefit. It e-mailed me late criteria, either for those who had been claiming the last year, saying that no member of the group at the benefits before moving abroad or those who lived abroad time—more than 100 people—had received the legal and were claiming for the first time. Later that month, reinstatement of their disability living allowance or the criteria were eventually published. even had the opportunity to have their case heard by the In December 2008, more than a year after the ECJ Tribunals Service. That brings me to a point made by judgment, the Government admitted that they had received my hon. Friend. Even once the law was established, it 1,700 requests for payment of DLA, attendance allowance seems that the Government did not move with appropriate or carer’s allowance from people who had previously speed. I shall say a little more about that later. lived in the UK. That information was gained in response It is worth setting out a little of the background—I to a question from my hon. Friend, who has been shall try not to repeat what was said by my hon. questioning the Government on the matter for some Friend—and saying something about the benefits. I time. In January 2009, my hon. Friend followed up that shall also ask the Minister about the thinking behind question, asking the Minister how many of those 1,700 the Government’s stance. The three benefits are the care had been settled. He was told that the implications were component of the disability living allowance—the mobility still being considered. component is not included in the European Court of Later that month, again in response to a written Justice ruling of 18 October 2007—the attendance allowance question, the Minister said that the Government had set and the carer’s allowance. The Court decided that those out their estimate of the increased case load and expenditure benefits should be removed from the list of non-exportable due to the ECJ ruling. He said that in 2010-11 they special non-contributory cash benefits, but should be expected that the case load would reach 20,000 people classed instead as sickness benefits and therefore paid, at an annual cost of £50 million. That was assumed to as my hon. Friend said, to those who live elsewhere in be the first full year following full implementation of the European economic area or Switzerland. the judgment. That estimate is broken down into £30 million I shall give the House an idea of the scale involved. for DLA, £10 million for attendance allowance and Slightly more than 3 million people in the United Kingdom £10 million for carer’s allowance. I am not clear, however, receive the care component of DLA, less than 1.6 million whether that is for those who were claiming benefits receive attendance allowance, and about 500,000 people before leaving the UK or whether it includes those receive carer’s allowance. I mention that because I shall living abroad who were claiming for the first time. That be asking the Minister to give us an idea of the number estimate gives no indication of whether the Government affected by the ruling and the Department’s estimate of expect those numbers to change. how many might be affected in future. I shall give an example: in 2008-09, about £4.7 billion was spent on John Barrett: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that attendance allowance for the 1.6 million who received the matter would be helped along if the DWP were to it; it is a significant sum. speak to the Department of Health on the matter? To put matters into context, it would be interesting to Considering the cost of claims to be a matter exclusively hear from the Minister how much is involved in the for the DWP would be to look at only part of the present case. My hon. Friend said that a parliamentary picture. Many who go abroad are not using GPs or answer gave an estimate of £50 million. That is a large health workers; they are not using NHS services, which sum, but it pales into insignificance when put next to has an impact on the Government’s budgeting. The cost the total amount of benefits paid. I shall have some of claims may be a matter for the DWP, but the costs to specific questions on that aspect for the Minister. the NHS would dwarf that figure. It is worth spending a brief moment to consider the chronology of this case, as it is one reason why those Mr. Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes a good overseas who are affected are so agitated. They may point. I am dwelling on the cost because it is our view think that things are clear after the ECJ ruling, but they that once the law is clear, the Government should move 177WH Exportable Benefits12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 178WH

[Mr. Harper] In June last year—these things move very slowly—the Government said that they had had 2,100 requests for quickly to implement it. The Minister will doubtless be payment or reinstatement of awards from people living able to make clear the reason for the use of the past in EEA states. At that point, decisions had been made presence rule to limit the number claiming for the first on 1,100 requests, with 1,000 pending a decision. For time from abroad. I presume it is because an estimate the benefit of hon. Members, will the Minister give us has been made of the potential number, and that that the latest information on how many requests for payment number is significant. I am simply trying to get a handle of benefits have been received and how many have been on what that might be. processed and had a decision made on them? Of those on which a decision has been made, how many have Mr. Gale: My hon. Friend cites a figure of 20,000 resulted in a benefit being awarded? In other words, claims. It is the first time that I have heard that figure. It how many requests for benefit have been successful? is a phenomenal increase on the 3,000 that we believe are in the system now. Where on earth are these figures There is another disappointing aspect to the lack of coming from? We ought to know that, too. dispatch in the Department’s approach. In June last year, the Government said that 1,400 people who lived Mr. Harper: The straightforward answer from my abroad were in receipt of benefits, but that the DWP point of view is that they come from a written answer; had only “started to process” claims for DLA from the Minister can tell us where the numbers come from. other states following the statement on 24 February. It It is difficult to reach a total. The estimated case load therefore took a year and four months after the ECJ for disability living allowance is 20,000, but in an excellent ruling for the DWP to start processing claims. Given piece of Government speak, no numbers are given for that we are talking largely about disabled and elderly attendance allowance and carer’s allowance because claimants living abroad, such a period can be significant. they equal The issue has obviously attracted great interest. There “less than 5,000 and therefore” has been an e-petition on the No. 10 website, the media equal have given the subject a lot of coverage, and colleagues “zero when rounded to the nearest 10,000”—[Official Report, such as my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet 28 January 2009; Vol. 487, c. 563W.] have raised the issue in Parliament. As he said, the Only someone in government could, on seeing that Prime Minister wrote to him saying that the 26 out of 5,000 people were entitled to something, round the 52 weeks past presence rule was figure down to zero, but that is what we are told has “compatible with European Community law”. happened. I have been through the ECJ judgment carefully—it is To put the figures in context, the £50 million estimated not riveting reading—and it would be helpful if the expenditure is about 0.1 per cent. of the total spent on Minister set out why the Department thinks that the such benefits, while the number of people affected is past presence test is compatible with the ruling, given about 0.4 per cent. of the number on such benefits. that the European Commission does not think so and Those numbers do not seem that dramatic or significant, has indicated to the Department that it intends to given the Department’s estimates for the growth of introduce infringement proceedings. disability living allowance, attendance allowance and carer’s allowance over time. I do not understand why On the issue of openness and transparency, I can the Government are working so hard to limit the number understand why the Minister does not want to share of claims, and I would be grateful if the Minister filled specific correspondence, but given the information that us in on that. has not been provided to the House—my hon. Friend drew attention to it—it is disappointing to see what is At the end of February 2009, a month after the available on the European Commission website. There, Minister answered that question, we had the fourth the Commission clearly sets out that it is taking legal written statement to Parliament. That was 10 months action against the UK for not paying benefits and after the previous one and one year and four months that it after the original judgment. On a Government website, Ministers finally published details of the eligibility criteria “addressed a Letter of Formal Notice to the UK authorities. The for those who were not claiming disability benefits British authorities have two months to respond”, when they left the UK, but who wished to claim them as my hon. Friend said. Again, the Department took when they moved abroad. the full two months, so it did not exactly act with all due In a parliamentary written answer, the Government speed. The Commission then sets out the benefits and stated that the past presence test had been modified for the ECJ ruling. It also says that the past presence test those claiming from another EEA state so that they had “goes against the European rules coordinating social security to have been in Great Britain for not less than 26 of the benefits and justifies the Commission’s decision to start an infringement previous 52 weeks. The Government also said that the procedure.” test would be applied only once, on the date on which We can get all that information from the Commission the entitlement to benefit was established. In other website, but when we ask Ministers to set out the words, someone who claimed more than six months discussions that they have had and the position that after having moved abroad would not be eligible for they have taken, we get rather less information. This is benefits. It would be helpful if the Minister told us how not something that I thought that I would say, or that many people living abroad would be eligible for such we hear often in the House, but the European Commission benefits if the past presence test was not in place and is being more open and transparent than the British what estimates the Department has made of the number Government, and the Minister should rectify that. who will be eligible over time. The Department must I have asked the Minister to set out the number of have done some thinking about that when deciding on claimants abroad. Just to be clear, will he tell us what its implementation of the ECJ ruling. estimate the Government have made of the predicted 179WH Exportable Benefits12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 180WH case load and expenditure for existing claimants who 10.20 am move abroad, claimants who already live abroad and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work both sets of claimants combined? The Minister has and Pensions (Jonathan Shaw): It is a pleasure to serve talked about 2010-11, which is assumed to be the first under your chairmanship, Mrs. Humble. As other hon. full year for implementation of the ruling, but what Members have noted, you take a personal interest in does full implementation actually mean and why has it matters relating to the Department for Work and Pensions. taken two years to reach this stage? I begin by paying tribute to the hon. Member for It is worth making one final point, which my hon. North Thanet (Mr. Gale), who has been pursuing this Friend and the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West issue for a long time. He and I have had meetings and he (John Barrett), who speaks for the Liberal Democrats, acts in his own doughty way but always in a manner of have touched on. One reason why the issue has attracted reasonableness, as the hon. Member for Forest of Dean attention and annoyed some of those living abroad is (Mr. Harper) said. The hon. Member for North Thanet that the same European Union rules that say that expresses his views in a forthright way, and I appreciate British citizens who lived here all their lives, paid taxes, the manner in which he has presented his case, not only contributed, worked and then moved abroad should get during this debate but during our meetings in the the benefits under discussion, also say that people who Department. come here from other European countries are entitled The starting point is the judgment by the European to other benefits. We read all the time in the papers—the Court of Justice in October 2007, and I want to explain stories are not made up, but are backed by parliamentary what that meant. In case C-299/05, the Court decided answers—about people who have come to the UK from that certain benefits belonging to Finland, Sweden and other European countries and have not worked here or the United Kingdom should not be classified as special paid taxes, but who, under EU rules, can claim benefits non-contributory benefits under European law, but should for themselves and their children. People find that instead be classified as sickness benefits. That change in extraordinary. We hear stories about Polish workers classification for the UK mainly affected disability coming to the UK who can claim child benefit for their benefits—the disability living allowance care component, children, when their children do not even live here, but attendance allowance and carer’s allowance, which have in Poland. been referred to. The Government never seem to look for clever loopholes The relevant legislation is EC regulation 1408/71, to avoid paying such people, who never seem to have which co-ordinates social security systems in the European any trouble claiming benefits. I do not suggest that they Economic Area, and provides rights for workers and should not get those benefits—under EU rules, these people who used to work and, in certain circumstances, things work in both directions—but it is strange that their family members. Not all people who are eligible to the Government have looked for every opportunity to receive benefits in the UK can export them if they leave deny money to those who have worked here, paid their the country. For instance, someone who resides in the taxes and gone abroad. Ministers never seem to make UK can claim DLA without having a national insurance similar efforts with those who come to this country, and contribution record. When they leave the country, however, I am not saying that they should, but there is a disparity. the UK is no longer responsible for paying them and People who come to this country never seem to have any they are not covered by the regulation. Each member trouble claiming money when they have not contributed. state is free to decide who is entitled to be insured under [Interruption.] It is all very well the Minister sighing, its legislation, which benefits are to be granted and but that sort of thing enables people who are against under what conditions, and how those benefits are our membership of the EU to score an easy hit. It also calculated. Any such decisions are, of course, subject to enables those who represent, shall we say, somewhat less challenge from individuals or the European Commission. democratic parties in this country to stir up all sorts of When people are covered by the regulation and wish feeling against those who come here from other European to export their benefit, they are no longer required to countries. As everyone who has spoken has made clear, meet normal residence and presence conditions although people are looking for fairness—they want people to be they are still required to meet other conditions of entitlement treated fairly. under domestic legislation. In the UK, that includes a Once the law is established following the ECJ ruling, past presence test, whereby an individual is required to it will be incumbent on the Government to implement it have been present in the UK for 26 of the previous as soon as possible so that those who are lawfully 52 weeks, on each day of the award of benefit. For entitled to benefits receive their lawful entitlement. On people wishing to export their benefit we have modified the basis of what I have said and what my hon. Friend that condition so that it is applied only on a single date, so ably said in opening the debate, it is clear that the on which other conditions of entitlement can be established. Government have not moved with due speed. At each The unmodified test is not new—it has always been stage, they appear to have taken the maximum time part of the conditions of entitlement that all customers available to them and tested every deadline. That is not are required to meet. Unlike the state pension, for how the Government should behave, particularly when example, disability benefits are not paid because relevant many of the British citizens involved are elderly and national insurance contributions have been made. They disabled, and when every month really matters. are not means-tested and are paid out of general UK In his response, I hope that the Minister will answer taxation. The purpose of the past presence test is to the questions raised by my hon. Friend and other hon. establish a connection with the UK that is appropriate Members who have spoken in this debate, and that he and proportionate. will move to resolve the issues surrounding the past The hon. Member for North Thanet said that we presence test and its lawfulness, or otherwise, and implement have failed to comply with the Court’s decision. However, the settled law with all possible speed. since the judgment, more than 1,700 people who have 181WH Exportable Benefits12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 182WH

[Jonathan Shaw] Jonathan Shaw: Let me make this point as it is relevant to a question raised by the hon. Gentleman. left the UK for another EEA state have been able to There are exceptions to the situation that I have export their benefit. They are currently being paid while outlined, and they include cases when people are terminally resident abroad, as long as they meet the eligibility ill. When we announced the criteria for payment of the criteria for payment. The hon. Gentleman represents a disability living allowance care component and attendance campaign group of people who previously received allowance for people claiming from abroad, we made it benefits, but who moved abroad before the date of the clear that people in such circumstances would not have judgment and consequently lost them. As noted by the to satisfy the 26-weeks past presence requirement. hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson), who is no longer in the Chamber, when those people moved abroad The hon. Gentleman referred to an e-mail that he they would have known that their benefits would cease, received on 11 January and the case of people who were and would presumably have taken that into account asked to pay back around £3,000. I cannot answer in when making their decision to leave the UK. Automatically detail about that specific issue now, but I would be to reinstate benefits to that group of people could be happy to look into the case and consider it carefully. contrary to both domestic and European law. Apart We are paying benefits, including state pensions, to from ensuring that customers satisfy all relevant domestic many thousands of expatriates abroad. Most of our requirements, including whether they need help in looking expatriates in the EEA live in Spain, and over the last after themselves or caring for others, they also need to year Ministers and senior officials have visited Spain satisfy European law on sickness benefits. to meet them and their representatives. They have demonstrated a genuine interest and concern in the lives Mr. Harper rose— of British nationals overseas. We are aware that UK nationals may experience difficulties abroad, and we want to help where we can. Since May 2007, my Department Jonathan Shaw: If I can make my point, I will come has supplied a team of six staff based in Alicante, to the issue that the hon. Gentleman has referred to. Malaga and Madrid to provide customer service to We know that some customers may have worked in support UK nationals living in Spain. their country of residence. Once that happens, even if they have now stopped work, they are no longer the Mr. Harper: The reason why I tried to intervene responsibility of the UK for payment of sickness benefits, earlier was to ask the Minister about the Court ruling. I and they will need to claim sickness benefits from their have two questions: first, I think that the Minister said new state of residence. People in the UK can receive a that if the Department were to reinstate benefits from disability benefit, even if they have no income at all. the time the relevant people moved abroad, or from However, under European law relating to sickness benefits, when they lost them on moving abroad, it would in in order to be eligible for payment a person needs to be some way breach European or domestic law. I am not in receipt of a state pension, or a long-term benefit such quite certain which aspect of law would be breached. as incapacity benefit, or to have paid recent national Secondly, what is the Government’s view of the ECJ insurance contributions. ruling? Did it change European law or simply set out People who moved abroad before the judgment and what European law had been all the time? lost their benefits—such as the constituents referred to by the hon. Member for North Thanet—have written to Jonathan Shaw: I shall answer those points in my the Department to ask the Secretary of State to reconsider speech. the disallowance decision, and we have looked carefully at all the available options. We can revise a decision As I was saying before the hon. Gentleman intervened, when we have made an official error. The definition of we are providing staff. We have a presence, and are an error specifically working with the Spanish authorities. That is in contrast to the characterisation the hon. Gentleman attempted “excludes any error of law which is shown to have been an error by virtue of a subsequent decision of a Commission or the to give of our interest in British people living overseas. court.” The team on the ground offers up-to-date and accurate information on entitlements; it liaises with the Spanish When we decided to disallow benefit when people moved authorities to resolve the most complex cases; and it abroad, the decision was made under relevant legislation also works closely with and improves co-operation with that was appropriate prior to the decision by the European the Spanish benefits agency—the National Institute of Court of Justice. People reclaiming benefits they received Social Security. The team is approached on occasion by in the past must therefore not have worked in their state customers who are priority cases in difficult welfare and of residence, must be receiving a long-term contributory health care situations, and who need quick intervention. benefit such as incapacity benefit or state pension, or Recent cases have included dealing with terminally ill must have made recent national insurance contributions. customers requiring medical cost advice, and giving They must also satisfy relevant domestic conditions of support to vulnerable customers when benefits have not entitlement. been claimed. As I noted earlier, we consider the past presence test People who cannot receive a benefit from the UK to be a necessary condition of entitlement to a non- may be able to receive a benefit or service from their contributory benefit, as it establishes a recent link to the new state of residence. If they are integrated in their UK. However, we recognise that people abroad who new community and satisfy relevant conditions they have not left the UK recently will not be able to qualify. may be able to receive benefit and assistance from social services, just like people who come to the UK. In fact, Mr. Gale rose— we know that people can and do receive help. For 183WH Exportable Benefits12 JANUARY 2010 Exportable Benefits 184WH example, there are messages on various websites. One of what would happen without the past presence test, if person who left the UK in 2004 recounts that she had benefits were backdated in the way that the hon. Gentleman three strokes and has argued for. “received excellent treatment in France”. Mr. Gale: Where are the 20,000 people? She writes on the website: “I received a letter telling me I am considered 80% or more Jonathan Shaw: On the basis of the number of people disabled and will receive an allowance which will pay for a home moving abroad and who have already moved abroad, help. My husband will also get an allowance for helping me in the and the cases that have come up so far, we make a house with washing, dressing etc.” general estimate. I shall set out our method in more She goes on to say that although she is happy with the detail for the hon. Gentleman, in a letter that I shall help she gets in France she feels bitter that she cannot ensure is placed in the Library. As I have said, we get help from the UK, as she and her husband paid into estimate what the figure will be at the most, but we the system all their working lives. obviously need to be cautious when accounting for I am pleased that lady is receiving the help she public expenditure. requires. As Minister for disabled people I strongly The hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (John Barrett) support the provision of services for disabled people, talked about savings. It is a reasonable point that other but the imposition of conditions such as the past presence savings will be made when people move abroad; but, of test is compatible with regulation 1408/71. If the hon. course, people’s patterns and plans change. I am sure Member for Forest of Dean wishes, I shall send him that the hon. Gentleman has met people who have details of the regulation. Conditions of entitlement moved to Spain and then decided to move back to the under domestic legislation must be taken into consideration. UK, as of course they are entitled to do. It is difficult to The European Commission has indeed written to us make projections relating to people’s behaviour and the to start infringement proceedings, as hon. Members social services they will use. have noted today, on the basis that it considers the past In most cases, when people are dissatisfied with a presence test to be an unlawful residence test. We have Department’s decision they have the right to appeal to replied explaining our position in detail and in particular an independent tribunal. ensuring that the Commission understands how we treat workers. We have not yet received a response. Mr. Harper: On the point about cost, the Minister Members have asked why we do not agree with the has clarified the answer that he gave Parliament about Commission. The UK is not alone among member what would happen if the past presence test were used, states in disagreeing from time to time with the European and without backdating. Has the Department made Commission in this and other policy areas. I am sure any estimates of the costs of the two elements? How that hon. Members present have disagreed with it, and much would it cost if claims were backdated to the have called on the UK Government to argue their case. point when people left the UK, and what would Of course, that is what we do when we disagree. However, the situation be without the past presence test? Has the we have never published such correspondence with the Department made those estimates, and can the Minister European Commission. It is important that we can have furnish us with the information today, or include it in frank and robust exchanges with the Commission, and his letter to my hon. Friend the Member for North to publish them would undermine our opportunity to Thanet? engage in them. That is not true just of the present case; it is the general custom and practice. Jonathan Shaw: I shall certainly ensure that we can provide a response on the costings, to take into account Mr. Harper: I think the Minister was guilty of slightly not applying the past presence test, as the hon. Gentleman mischaracterising what I and my hon. Friend the Member suggests. for North Thanet said. I did not ask why the Government We have identified and submitted a small number of disagree with the European Commission. I asked the cases for tribunal hearings and applied for those appeals Minister to set out in detail why the Government think to be appointed as lead cases. I know that there has that the past presence test is compatible with the ECJ been some criticism of the delay, but obviously hon. rule. I have no problem with the Minister disagreeing Members will be aware that the tribunal service is the with the Commission—I frequently do so—so I do not responsibility of the Ministry of Justice and I will want to leave him with the idea that I am complaining ensure that the criticisms are passed to that Department. about that. I just want to know why the Government The need to get things right and deal with the delays think that what they are doing is compatible with the is because the benefits were designed before the rulings ECJ ruling. The point that I made about the Commission came into being, as the hon. Member for Hexham was that it was apparently being more transparent noted. We have had to get the system right. It is not the about its discussion with the British Government than case that we have been wantonly disingenuous and the Government were being. dragged our heels, as some Members have tried to characterise the Government’s behaviour. Members should Jonathan Shaw: I am grateful for that clarification of look at the track record in terms of the benefits that the the hon. Gentleman’s position. Government have paid out to disabled people and compare Several hon. Members raised the issue of costs. The it to that of other Governments. I think our record figures referred to this morning are projected costs of stands up very well. The hon. Member for Forest of £50 million by 2011, on the existing past presence test. Dean made a point about Polish workers and talked That is what we project at the most, and that was our about how some extreme parties would use that case. reply to the parliamentary question tabled by the hon. Perhaps he should not fan those flames in the way that Member for North Thanet. That does not take account he did. 185WH Exportable Benefits 12 JANUARY 2010 186WH

Mr. Gale: All we are asking for is consistency. The Goldstone Report Government appear to be perfectly prepared to pay people who now live in the Minister’s constituency, or 11 am people who live in my constituency in Kent, considerable sums of money, in the form of benefits decreed by the Martin Linton (Battersea) (Lab): It is good to serve European Union—I have no problem with that. That under your chairmanship, Mrs. Humble. I am glad to money is paid to people who are not resident in the see so many hon. Members as I consider this to be a United Kingdom, people who have come here and paid vital debate on the Goldstone report and the Government’s no taxes, no rates, no nothing, for the majority of their attitude to it before the vote in the United Nations working lives. They may be paying taxes now, but they General Assembly next month and, possibly, in the have not paid them for 30, 40 or 50 years. Therefore, we Security Council the month after. cannot understand why United Kingdom citizens—UK As one of the few people who have read the report passport-holders—who are now resident in European from cover to cover, I regard it as one of the most countries are being discriminated against, and those thorough and thoughtful I have ever read, and a model citizens cannot understand it themselves. That is the of even-handedness. I do not say that the original point. It has nothing to do with racism, extremism or motion before the Human Rights Council was even-handed anything else. because it referred only to Israel. However, the amended mandate of the mission, as agreed between the president Jonathan Shaw: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman of the committee and Richard Goldstone, was even-handed made that point, because it contrasts with the efforts of because it refers to human rights violations by all parties his colleague, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean—[HON. before, during and after the conflict. MEMBERS: “ No, it does not.”] It was the hon. Member The Israelis have criticised the process and refused to for Forest of Dean who raised the point that I am now give evidence. However, a panel of prominent international responding to and who set the tone. It is reasonable for lawyers under Elizabeth Wilmshurst, a former Foreign me to respond to what he said. I happen to disagree Office lawyer, looked at the report and concluded that it with him. If he does not like that, it is a matter for him. was not invalidated by the criticism, nor by Israel’s We will continue our dialogue with the Commission. refusal to give evidence—far from it. We have set out why we believe the past presence test is I was one of the first group of MPs to enter Gaza reasonable and fair. I pay tribute to the hon. Member after the military operations in February, along with my for North Thanet as he takes this case forward. I am hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield sure that this will not be the last point we hear from him (Richard Burden) and the hon. Member for Kingston on the subject. I am grateful for the contributions from and Surbiton (Mr. Davey). We saw many of the same all hon. Members who have spoken in this morning’s things and spoke to many of the same people as the debate, which has provided the Government with the mission. Our accounts were listened to, but we did not opportunity to set out our case. have the time or resources to cross-check every fact and assess the reliability of every witness. Richard Goldstone 10.43 am did so with meticulous care. I do not know whether to Sitting suspended. be surprised to discover that all the horrors that we could hardly believe were true. The first strike by an Israeli jet fighter at 11.20 on 27 December caught a group of policemen on a three-week training course doing their morning sport exercise; 48 of them were killed on the spot. There were no allegations that the police force took part in combat, yet 248 members of the Gaza police were killed. The report found that to be a violation of international humanitarian law on several counts. We saw the effects of shelling on the hospital and ambulances at al-Quds hospital. The report found that the direct attack on the hospital violated the fourth Geneva convention. We also visited the al-Wafa hospital and saw lumps of debris that were still smoking three weeks after the attack. The report confirmed that it was a white phosphorus attack that was reckless, unjustifiable and in violation of the Geneva convention. Israeli paratroopers fired mortars into the busy al-Fakhura street in Jabaliyah, killing 24 people, nearly all of whom were civilians. They landed just a few metres from a United Nations school where 1,368 civilians were sheltering. In a sober, understated way, the report said that the decision to deploy mortars in a location filled with civilians was not a choice any reasonable commander would have made. The commander would have known that it would result in civilian deaths. A missile strike on the door of the al-Maqadmah mosque in Jabaliya, where 200 men had gathered for evening 187WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 188WH prayers, killed 15 and injured 40. There was no suggestion Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): I that the mosque was used to launch rockets, store commend the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. weapons or shelter combatants. That too was found to All the incidents that he has described, all those that be a grave breach. were covered in the Goldstone report and another The commander of the paratroop brigade in Jabaliyah, 92 cases have been or are subject to investigations by the Colonel Hartzi Halevi, who has since become brigadier Israeli military police and the Attorney-General, and general, was in the news only last week when he suddenly that will lead to Supreme Court review. Does he agree cancelled a visit to King’s college London because the that that is an appropriate response by a responsible British Government would not give an assurance that democratic Government to criticisms that have been he would not be arrested. raised about their military operations? A condolence tent, where relatives were mourning the Martin Linton: I will come to Richard Goldstone’s victims of a flechette attack was itself hit by a flechette views about the Israeli internal inquiries in a moment. attack. Four mourners and an ambulance driver were He says that they are inadequate and do not conform to killed and more than 20 were injured. The report found international inquiry standards. those attacks to be wilful killing, designed to kill and maim victims and, as such, were violations of international First, I will mention another Israeli officer who cancelled law. his trip to London last week. Colonel Itai Virob, commander of the Kfir Brigade, was asked recently to One of the most distressing parts of our visit was give evidence about allegations that his men beat Palestinians talking to former inhabitants of Izbat Abd Rabbo, a even when they were not suspected of any offence. He village that had been razed to the ground; there was said that nothing left except rubble. The report confirms one “using violence and aggression…is not only allowed but sometimes incident that we heard about at the time: imperative”. “Shortly after 12.30 p.m., the inhabitants of that part of Izbat He continued that Abd Rabbo heard megaphone messages telling all residents to leave.” “a slap, sometimes a hit to the back of the neck or the chest…sometimes a knee jab or strangulation to calm someone It continues: down is reasonable.” “At about 12.50 p.m., Khalid Abd Rabbo, his wife Kawthar, If one thinks that is bad, the soldiers under his command their three daughters” were even worse. An eye-witness saw them —aged nine, five and three and their grandmother— “just knee [Palestinians] because it’s boring, because you stand “stepped out of the house, all of them carrying white flags. Less there 10 hours, you’re not doing anything, so they beat people than 10 metres from the door was a tank, turned towards their up.” house. Two soldiers were sitting on top of it having a snack (one Another witness said: was eating chips, the other chocolate, according to one of the witnesses). The family stood still, waiting for orders from the “There were a lot of reservists that participated, and they soldiers as to what they should do, but none was given. Without totally had a celebration on the Palestinians: curses, humiliation, warning, a third soldier emerged from inside the tank and started pulling hair and ears, kicks, slaps. These things were the norm.” shooting at the three girls and then also at their grandmother.” I should also mention the attacks on the Gazan The girls and the grandmother died. Their parents economy. One chicken farmer “shouted for help and a neighbour, who was an ambulance driver “watched as the armoured bulldozers destroyed the chicken farms, and had his ambulance parked next to his house, decided to come crushing the wire mesh coops with” to their help. He put on his ambulance crew clothes and asked his 31,000 chickens inside. The report continues: son to put on a fluorescent jacket. They had driven a few metres “He noted that the drivers of the tanks would spend hours from their house…when Israeli soldiers…ordered them to halt flattening the chicken coops, sometimes stopping for coffee breaks, and get out of the vehicle.” before resuming their work.” The account continues: Gaza’s only fully operational cement-packing plant “The soldiers ordered him and his son to undress and then was systematically destroyed over four days. Helicopter- re-dress. They then ordered them to abandon the ambulance and launched rockets were used to destroy the main to walk towards Jabaliyah…The family decided that they had to manufacturing line. Bulldozers destroyed the factory make an attempt to walk to Jabaliyah”. walls. The report notes: The parents carried the girls on their shoulders and the “The silo had not been entirely destroyed…so explosives were grandmother was carried by family members. attached to its supporting columns.” The verdict of the Goldstone report was that the It says that it was soldier “deliberately directed lethal fire” at the girls and “a very deliberate strategy of attacking the construction industry” their grandmother and that the soldiers knew that the ambulance driver with no military reason or justification. “did not constitute a threat” I will not go on about the beatings, the degrading treatment of detainees or the use of civilians as human and deliberately aggravated the consequences of the shields. If people want to read about those things, they shooting by forcing him to abandon the ambulance. can read the full report, which I recommend. Goldstone’s That is just one example. The report investigated conclusion was that rather than fighting the Palestinian incidents involving 34 Palestinian civilians who lost armed groups in Gaza in a targeted way, as Israel was their lives owing to Israeli fire that was intentionally entitled to do, it had chosen to punish the whole population. directed at them. In each case, it found that the Israeli That was a policy of collective punishment and the armed forces opened fire on civilians who were not report states that it was a deliberately disproportionate taking part in the hostilities and who posed no threat to attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a them. civilian population. 189WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 190WH

[Martin Linton] Martin Linton: If my right hon. Friend had read the Goldstone report, she would know that many pages are International law places an obligation on states to devoted to the violations by Hamas and, indeed, some investigate breaches of the Geneva convention, but the to the violations by Fatah. Out of the 428 pages, Goldstone report found that Israel’s own investigations—I come devotes perhaps 20 or 30 to Fatah and Hamas, which to the point raised by the hon. Member for Preseli seems a proportionate approach given that they are Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb)—were totally inadequate. responsible for 13 deaths, rather then 1,300. Such investigations appear to have relied exclusively on interviews with Israeli officers and soldiers, those conducting Mr. Douglas Carswell (Harwich) (Con): Will the hon. them were not interested in interviewing victims or Gentleman give way? witnesses, and they did not start until six months after the event. Mr. Crabb rose— The inadequacy of Israel’s own investigations has meant that the report attaches enormous importance to Martin Linton: I must make progress. Universal the principle of universal jurisdiction. The report considers jurisdiction is one way in which we can show how we that universal jurisdiction is a potentially efficient tool disapprove of what is being done. Frankly, if the two for enforcing international law when states fail to do so. Israeli officers had come to London last week, it would If soldiers are not punished for such casual cruelty, if have been a good thing if they had been arrested and, generals do not investigate, if the Israeli Government indeed, prosecuted. The Foreign Secretary seems to spokesman, Mark Regev, simply denies on television think that arrest warrants would set the peace process that anything of this kind ever occurred, it eats away at back, but what sets the peace process back is the perception the moral fibre. that the UK is applying double standards and enforcing international law against one country, but not against Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman another. is raising a very important and timely subject, but does he share my disappointment that Prime Minister Netanyahu Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I compliment dismissed the allegations as false prior to Israeli military my hon. Friend on his contribution and on securing the police investigating them? Is that any way for the Prime debate. Does he agree that gaining the universal arrest Minister of a country to act in these circumstances? warrant in the wake of the Pinochet arrest was a major step forward for the cause of human rights in this Martin Linton: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. country and around the world? It would be utterly Sadly, the Israeli Government have shown as cavalier an deplorable if legislation were rushed through the House attitude to justice as some of their own soldiers, yet they of Commons to remove what was a major advance in should be setting the example. human rights law in this country and is held up as an example around the world. Does he agree that that Mr. Crabb rose— would be a wholly wrong thing to do?

Martin Linton: Just in case the hon. Gentleman was Martin Linton: Indeed, I agree with my hon. Friend. going to make this point, I readily concede that the What is more impressive is that Richard Goldstone report does not just mention the Israelis. The inquiry cannot be dismissed as a friend of Hamas or as being also found violations of international law in the actions worse than Ahmadinejad, as the Israelis tried to do. He of Hamas and Fatah. However, as Goldstone points regards himself as a Zionist and considers an independent out, the fact that Hamas is responsible for grave breaches inquiry into Gaza as being in Israel’s interests as well as of international law does not make the Israeli breaches that of the Palestinians. Goldstone agrees with my hon. any less grave. Goldstone worries about what he calls Friend’s point. He is a veteran of inquiries into Rwanda the “culture of impunity” that spreads through Israeli and Serbia, he speaks with enormous authority on this armed forces and the Government, who show contempt matter, and he has come to the same conclusion as us. for the Geneva conventions and for international law as a whole. Mr. Carswell: The Goldstone report was set in motion We have to understand that the Palestinians do not after a United Nations Human Rights Council resolution have the power to solve the problems that face them, that stated from the outset that it holds Israel accountable and the Israelis do not have the will. It is only the for war crimes and that focused only on Israel. Is this international community that can resolve the situation, not a case of being literally pre judice—prejudice? but it must act decisively and courageously. Universal jurisdiction is one way in which we can show how Martin Linton: I did not notice when the hon. Gentleman deeply we disapprove of what the Israelis have done. came in, but I dealt with that very point in my opening comments, when I said that I did not support the Jane Kennedy (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab): My hon. original motion before the Human Rights Council because Friend has spent 11 minutes—12 minutes now—of what it referred only to Israeli, but that the amended mandate is a very important and interesting contribution to a refers to human rights violations by all parties before, critical debate concentrating entirely on the allegations during and after the conflict. We should judge the faced by the Israeli military and Government surrounding report as it has turned out, rather than by the motion of the events of Operation Cast Lead. Is he going to make the Human Rights Council. the same mistake that I believe Judge Goldstone has made in focusing entirely on the one side—the democratic Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I am sure that Government who are themselves investigating the events— my hon. Friend is not intentionally misleading the without dealing with the terrorism from Hamas? House, but the fact is that when Goldstone considered 191WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 192WH his mandate, he decided to go back only six months Mrs. Joan Humble (in the Chair): Order. Several hon. from the start of Cast Lead, not back over the eight Members wish to speak in this important debate, so I years and 9,000 rocket attacks sent into Gaza by Hamas, remind them that I hope to call the Front Bench speakers which led the Israelis to have the justification of defending soon after 12 o’clock. Members should therefore keep their people. an eye on the time and limit their contributions to allow as many as possible to speak. Martin Linton: I assure my hon. Friend that if he reads the full report, Goldstone does go back and 11.20 am interprets before, during and after to mean putting the matter in the context of the whole history and going Jane Kennedy (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab): It is a back over many years. However, the point is that after pleasure to be here this morning, and I congratulate my this exhaustive inquiry, Goldstone was driven to the hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Martin Linton) very important conclusion that a lasting peace settlement on securing the debate about British Government policy will never be achieved unless the culture of impunity is regarding the report of Judge Richard Goldstone following ended and violations of international law are punished. his investigation into Operation Cast Lead. When an arrest warrant was issued for Tzipi Livni, Although I concur with my hon. Friend on his description the Israeli ambassador Ron Prosor was quoted in the of the eminence of Judge Goldstone and his team, I will papers as demanding a change in our law. Frankly, it is say that Judge Goldstone is not omnipotent and that not his place to demand a change in our law; that is up there were flaws in his report. I support the view taken to us. I for one would not support such a change. The by Ministers here, that his report is unjust in implying a Foreign Secretary said at the time that Israel is a strategic moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas. He failed partner and a close friend so we should give the power to adequately recognise Israel’s right to protect its citizens to apply for arrest warrants to the Attorney-General. Is from murderous attacks and paid insufficient attention he suggesting that arrest warrants should be denied on to Hamas’s acts of terrorism. the basis of friendship? Surely the Attorney-General is Judge Goldstone’s mission was limited by the mandate supposed to be entirely impartial in her legal role and of the UN Human Rights Council, which was for an changing the law in such a way would just feed the investigation of the military operations conducted in perception that double standards were being applied. Gaza, excluding from his remit the seven years of rocket On the main point about the report—I will end my attacks by Hamas on Israel, as my hon. Friend the comments as soon as I can—it is a good thing that the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) has mentioned. Government did not vote against the Goldstone report Israel estimates that, since October 2001, 9,000 rockets and try to persuade our European partners not to and mortars were fired from Gaza into its southern oppose it. However, I also think that they should have towns by Hamas. It is not good enough for Judge voted in favour. The reason the Government gave for Goldstone to characterise those as acts by “Palestinian not doing so was that they wanted to give the Israelis armed groups”. He was also mistaken when he decided and the Palestinians six months to conduct their own to consider only actions in the entire occupied Palestinian inquiries. That seems sensible, but, of course, that is territory and Israel from 19 June 2008. what Goldstone recommends anyway.When the Goldstone Estimates vary, but I know that up to 1,380 people report comes back to the General Assembly and goes to were killed during Operation Cast Lead, which is a the Security Council, I urge strongly the Foreign Secretary shocking number of deaths. Many more were injured to support it. and made homeless and workless. However, the responsibility for those deaths lies at the door of Hamas. Mr. Crabb: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? There is no Government represented at the UN that would tolerate a sustained and murderous attack on its citizens for a period of seven years such as that carried Martin Linton: I must finish now, because I can see out by Hamas on Israel. from the number of hon. Members who are here that if I take much longer, I will impinge on their chances of Mr. Robert Marshall-Andrews (Medway) (Lab): Will speaking. my right hon. Friend give way? In conclusion, however much sympathy we have with Israel as a state and as an ideal, we must face the fact Jane Kennedy: I will give way in a moment. that how it behaved in Gaza and how it is behaving in There are victims on Israel’s side, too. I must at this the west bank is cruel, out of order, against international point declare an interest, regarding a visit I made to law, jeopardises world peace and is, importantly, against Israel with Labour Friends of Israel in September, when the interest of the Israelis. We have to take our courage the Judge’s report was published. During that visit I was in our hands and say that enough is enough. The fortunate to meet around 20 young men and women international community must enforce international law— who lived in Sterodt, in the south of Israel. They had article 99, chapter 7 or whatever it takes—to make the seen their classmates killed, blown up in the streets by UN an effective force for world peace. Hamas rockets. Many had been injured, but they were We have a duty as signatories and guarantors of the stoic in their determination not to be driven out of their Geneva convention, and we have a moral duty having homes by terrorism. contributed to the problem in the first place. We can no They were without doubt traumatised. Their families longer close our eyes to the fact that Israel is flagrantly were forced to adopt tactics that might seem almost in breach of the convention and of international law. comical: not being able to take a shower because for some families the shower was the bomb shelter and they Several hon. Members rose— might find themselves wet and without clothes in the 193WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 194WH

[Jane Kennedy] stature and courage and a leader of her people, cannot come freely to Britain. It is nonsense that US and UK presence of their entire family. Football can only be Ministers and generals might find themselves under played under a protective shield mounted over a small similar restrictions in other countries. That area of law piece of land. There are regular air raid warnings and needs urgent review, and I ask the Minister what steps drills to practise how to stay safe and minimise the risk are being taken to correct that legal nonsense. of injury and death. That is no way to live. I repeat, which Government represented at the UN would tolerate 11.26 am such a threat to its citizens? Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): Thank you, Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I, Mrs. Humble. I will be brief so that other Members can too, have visited Sterodt, and the fear of the people speak. I congratulate the hon. Member for Battersea there that my right hon. Friend has described is absolutely (Martin Linton) on securing the debate, on what he said genuine. However, if she is saying that the flaw in the and the way in which he said it. This is a debate in the Goldstone report was the time limit placed on the date British Parliament about accountability, and I have from which it enquired, and she has talked about other some specific points, which I would like the Minister to things that should be looked at, why has she failed to respond to when he replies, concerning the Goldstone mention the existence of the Hamas ceasefire long report, the attitude taken at the UN Human Rights before Operation Cast Lead, or the blockade that existed Council and the question of universal jurisdiction. in an extreme form since Hamas was elected to Government After the Gaza bombing had ceased and a ceasefire and in one form or other for a long time before that? If of a sort was in place, the Goldstone commission was she wants to be balanced, why does she not mentioned set up, and it went into enormous detail to look at what those things? was going on. He gave a comprehensive report, which is not, in my view, unbalanced or one-sided, because it Jane Kennedy: It is precisely those sort of issues that makes criticisms of all parties. When the report was could have been looked at had the Goldstone report’s finally delivered to the UN Human Rights Council, the remit not been so narrowly drawn by the UN Human British Government’s representative, although not Rights Council. The hon. Gentleman is my hon. Friend, abstaining, extraordinarily did not participate in the but I disagree profoundly with him on this. I agree with discussion or vote at the end of the deliberations in the US Assistant Secretary of State, Michael Posner, Geneva. I would be grateful if the Minister explained who has accused the Human Rights Council of exactly what the British Government’s representatives “paying grossly disproportionate attention to one country, Israel. were doing at the time, because it seems to me that if we In the last five years the Council and its predecessor have commissioned send representatives to the Human Rights Council in more than 20 reports on Israel—far more than any other country Geneva we expect them to be there, to participate in the in the world. Since its creation in 2006 it has passed 20 resolutions discussions. If the British Government are not prepared on Israel—more than the number of resolutions for all 191 other to support the referral of the Goldstone commission’s members combined.” report to the Security Council, they should do us the I believe that our Government are right to have courtesy of explaining why. There appears to have been withheld their vote in consideration of the flaws in the further obfuscation later on when it got to the UN report. Security Council. Mr. Marshall-Andrews: Will my right hon. Friend I think Goldstone is a brave man. He stood out give way? against apartheid. He is not an enemy of Israel. Indeed, he has quite strongly Zionist views, which many of us in this Chamber might or might not agree with. The fact is Jane Kennedy: If my hon. and learned Friend will that he is a respected jurist around the world who has allow me, I will make some progress. delivered an important report, and maybe we should More should be done to help ease the situation in treat it with some respect and have the matter dealt with Gaza. The EU announced last January its willingness to properly by the Security Council. reactivate its border assistance mission at the Rafah crossing, but conditions have militated against that. Mr. Carswell: The hon. Gentleman cites the authority Instead of admonishing Israel for seeking to protect its of the UN Human Rights Council and its resolution as citizens from attack, will our Government work with a source of legitimacy in the matter. Does he not EU partners to agree a substantial offer of assistance to recognise that some countries that voted in favour of facilitate the opening and operation of crossings into the resolution and that have seats on the UN Human Gaza? What discussions has my hon. Friend the Minister Rights Council have themselves grotesquely poor human had within the EU to bring that about? I am pleased to rights records, such as Syria, Cuba and Saudi Arabia? see him here this morning and am sure that he can shed To cite that as the authority on which to judge a liberal light on the matter. democracy is perhaps to apply double standards. I have one final point, on universal jurisdiction. It is important that we bring to justice those guilty of crimes Jeremy Corbyn: Most countries that are represented committed during warfare, but we should be ashamed on the UN Human Rights Council have difficult human of the fact that our judicial system can be manipulated rights records, including the United States over so that a magistrate in a junior court can issue a warrant Guantanamo Bay and this country over extraordinary for the arrest of representatives of both Governments rendition and the imprisonment of child asylum seekers. and the military from countries with whom we are Many other countries have serious human rights questions friends and allies.—[Interruption.] I will explain. I am to be asked of them. I do not resile from that, and I ashamed of the fact that Tzipi Livni, a woman of great understand the points that are being made. None the 195WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 196WH less, the Minister must explain why the British Government respect shown for the democratic process within Gaza representative could not bring themselves to take part and the west bank that has resulted in elected Government. in the decision to refer the matter to the Security Whether one likes it or not, that must fundamentally be Council. I am sure that the hon. Member for Harwich what the democratic process is about. will agree with me on that point, if not on the other Lastly, I want to turn to universal jurisdiction, which points that I have made concerning the matter. I mentioned in my intervention on my hon. Friend the The Goldstone report goes into a lot of detail about Member for Battersea. I was deeply involved in the the destruction of economic and civilian life in Gaza. It whole issue of General Pinochet, including his arrival in mentions the deliberate destruction of houses, water this country on an arms-buying spree, his eventual tanks and centres of employment and economic life. It arrest on an extradition warrant from Spain and the was not just a retaliatory attack, but an intention to historic decision by the House of Lords to declare destroy the very economic fibre of Gaza and reduce its universal jurisdiction on human rights matters to be people to the misery and poverty with which they are competent for British courts. It was good enough then, forced to survive at the present time. It was a wanton act and many people were very pleased with it, because of destruction that was disproportionate to the alleged General Pinochet’s popularity had not lasted. People threat that Israel was facing at the time because a said, “This is a good thing. We are bringing murderers ceasefire was already in operation. to justice.” However, now that the Foreign Secretary and others see Israel as an ally, it is seen to be inconvenient Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): One of to apply a similar process to people who said that there the things that struck me about Operation Cast Lead was no humanitarian crisis in Gaza and who ordered was how Israel, which prides itself on being a democracy, the bombing of civilian installations in Gaza during kept all foreign journalists on a hill outside the Gaza Operation Cast Lead. Surely they, too, have humanitarian strip so that they could not witness what was taking law questions to answer in British courts should they place. Does my hon. Friend agree that such behaviour is show up in this country. not the way in which a democracy operates? I am proud of the fact that we have universal jurisdiction in British courts, and I will in no way support the Jeremy Corbyn: Absolutely. The whole point about a reduction of that right in any parliamentary move that democracy is that it opens itself up to accountability is made by the Government. When the Minister replies, and observation. Israel made very sure that journalists I suggest that he tells us that that nonsense has been could not get into Gaza. We should be grateful to dropped and that we will stick with our human rights al-Jazeera and others that remained in Gaza throughout law and universal jurisdiction. If that means that people the conflict for sending live footage of what was going such as Tzipi Livni cannot come here unless they are on. Such action probably helped to hasten the end of prepared to answer legal questions, so be it. It might the conflict rather than prolong it, which is what would discourage other people from bombing civilian targets have happened had they not been there. in the future. Surely that is the whole point of having that law and of international human rights law. Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): Those of us who visited Gaza before the conflict and Operation Cast 11.36 am Lead are aware that the economic damage to which my Mr. Robert Marshall-Andrews (Medway) (Lab): I hon. Friend refers was being inflicted even then and is congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea still being inflicted now by the blockade. I am sure that (Martin Linton) on obtaining this important debate. I we all welcomed the Prime Minister’s support for an should like to touch briefly on the important legal end to the blockade in Prime Minister’s questions last implications of the Goldstone report rather than its week, but does my hon. Friend agree that we need content, which has been dealt with extensively by my action and not words on this? hon. Friend with his usual clarity and articulation. Goldstone is unique; there has never been such a meticulous Jeremy Corbyn: Absolutely. I first visited Gaza in and judicial analysis of atrocity within so short a time 1998 post-Oslo. There was an amazing air of optimism of those atrocities being committed either by a nation around. Developments were under way and farming, state or by others. I have read the report and already it education and employment were all growing; it was a has achieved the iconic status that is normally, in literary great time. Go there now, and one will see the horrors, terms, reserved for “Ulysses”. We always used to ask destruction and misery of life for ordinary people. In each other, “Have you actually read “Ulysses”?” The effect, the people of Gaza are imprisoned. Let us put answer was a test of both one’s veracity and virility. that in a wider context. When the police in this country decide to surround a demonstration and perform a The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): And one’s “kettling” operation, people quite quickly become angry, stamina. annoyed and distressed. They either turn on each other or on the police, and very quickly a nasty conflict Mr. Marshall-Andrews: Yes, and stamina. We now develops. Think of the people of Gaza who are under ask each other who has read Goldstone. I have, and occupation. They cannot travel, move, work or live a found it a harrowing and dreadful experience. Worse normal life. Those who have managed to develop industries than the destruction of schools and hospitals and the and employment or who have tried to create a sense of wanton blowing up of civilian targets is the wanton community saw it all destroyed in Operation Cast Lead. destruction of 40 per cent. of the agricultural output of If we wish to bring about peace in the area, we must Gaza. I have one rhetorical question that I wanted to stop the occupation of the west bank and the imprisonment ask when I tried to intervene on my right hon. Friend of the people of Gaza. The borders must be open and the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Jane Kennedy). 197WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 198WH

[Mr. Marshall-Andrews] on unverifiable publications from politicised NGOs, such as the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, whose How does a country defend its people by wantonly analysis it is fair to say is not wholly objective. Does the destroying 40 per cent. of the agricultural capacity? hon. and learned Gentleman not accept that some of More than anything else, it is the casual cruelty that is the evidence base in Goldstone is highly questionable the most devastating. Goldstone mentions the casual and that the report is not the objective document that shooting of children and civilians while soldiers do he pretends it to be? nothing except eat on the top of a tank. Effectively, they are doing it for fun. That reawakens images of the worst Mr. Marshall-Andrews: That interpretation of Goldstone regiments of history; images with which my generation is highly selective, but let me answer the real question, were brought up. I am talking about images of the which came at the end: do I not accept that some of the Waffen SS doing precisely the same thing. That is what evidence in Goldstone is questionable? Of course I do. I is so horrifying in the Goldstone report. have been a criminal barrister for a long time and have Let me briefly touch on the even-handedness of prosecuted and defended—I am happy or unhappy to Goldstone. The Goldstone report centres on Israel and say—some of the most venal, serious, dangerous, nasty the actions of the Israeli army because 1,440 people and on occasion violent crimes that have been committed have been injured and killed—including 400 children—by in this jurisdiction. Of course I know that all evidence that army.It is hardly surprising that Goldstone concentrates needs to be tested. That is why the report needs to be on such matters. Israel is an immensely prosperous state tested in a proper arena; it needs to be tested in a British that is supported by the most prosperous state on Earth court, or in a court. Brought before such a judicial test, and many of the most prosperous institutions. It is a it may well be that some parts of the report will be state that, ever since I entered politics, I have supported found wanting. Frankly, I disagree—the report is a and worked for its right to exist. It is a state born out of devastating indictment, in its form, its content and the indescribable suffering, which happened in my lifetime. nature and background of the man who wrote it. However, So, I do not take any criticism from those who might that is all that it is: an indictment. That indictment cries say that I am anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli—I am not and out to be tried. never have been—but Gaza opened the eyes of people Now I come to the principle of universal jurisdiction, like me, who had been quiet for far too long on the which so shames my right hon. Friend the Member for issue. Liverpool, Wavertree (Jane Kennedy), who would take What happened in Gaza is chronicled in Goldstone. no interventions on the subject. Let us deal with universal What is the effect? jurisdiction, which she finds so abhorrent. In the case of Tzipi Livni—not a case in which I was retained—inevitably Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): what happened was that evidence was placed before a I welcome the debate. I come from a similar background British district judge, of whom there is no criticism at to my hon. and learned Friend and have been going to all. I shall listen carefully to the Minister’s reply, when that part of world since before I came into this place. he comes to deal with the issue. If he says that the Does it disturb him, as it disturbs me, that people use district judge can be criticised, he is wholly at odds with “democracy” and the existence of an internal electoral the Foreign Secretary, who has spoken to me in such system that appoints a parliament as an excuse—a terms as, “There is no criticism of that district judge.” smoke-and-mirrors scheme to hide behind—to justify That district judge, on the evidence placed before him the actions of what anyone else would say has become a or her—I do not know which, but it was a Westminster pariah state? district judge—found that there was a prima facie case to answer, because of the evidence of the atrocities Mr. Marshall-Andrews: I agree entirely with my hon. committed in Gaza and the authority exercised by Tzipi Friend. Democracy, laudable though it undoubtedly is, Livni at the time. is only one hallmark of civilisation; how one behaves in that democracy is another. The Third Reich started out That is the British system. In our system, we have the as a democracy; Hamas is a democracy; democracy is contribution of the citizen to a degree not exemplified not the only thing. The repetition of the phrase, “This is elsewhere. We have jury trial, for instance—the first trial the only democracy in the middle east”, with Israel without a jury starts today, ironically, but the basis of therefore deserving some special treatment, is costing us our system is still jury trial. The citizen decides; the dear in international terms and in international relations. citizen can initiate process; and the citizen can go to a district judge and put evidence before the judge—if the Briefly, on the legal consequences of Goldstone, does evidence is there, process will issue. That is our system the report have a legal base in British jurisprudence? and I find nothing shameful in that at all. What I find Yes, it does, it most certainly does—it is evidence. shameful is the speed with which our Prime Minister Ironically, one of the reasons why it is evidence is got in touch with the Israeli Government and told them because of the extreme loosening of the evidential that there was something wrong with our judicial process. barriers effected by the Government in the Criminal What I find shameful is that the Attorney-General—our Justice Act 2003, in the teeth of opposition from people Attorneys-General in this Government have a lot to such as myself. None the less, that is the effect: Goldstone answer for in how they have used their office in the is an evidential document in British jurisdiction, and build-up to the Iraq war and now this—going to a may be used as such. Hebrew university, talked about war “lawfare” and said: Mr. Carswell: The hon. and learned Gentleman mentions “Israel’s leaders should always be able to travel freely in the the examples of brutality cited in Goldstone, which are United Kingdom”. based on examples provided to Goldstone by non- Why? Why should Israel’s leaders “always” be able to governmental organisation evidence. The NGO evidence, travel, no matter what they do or the atrocities committed as Goldstone himself stated, was based almost entirely by their Government, army and the IDF on their behalf? 199WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 200WH

Why? The time has long gone in this world when those southern Israel, which constituted a breach of international who commit war crimes can believe that they can travel humanitarian law but was not addressed. As I mentioned with impunity and immunity into civilised states and in an earlier intervention, there have been 9,000 such not face universal jurisdiction. attacks since October 2001. Mr. Carswell: The hon. and learned Gentleman comes We have heard a lot about international universal from a proud tradition of the British left of being jurisdiction and the way that the Goldstone report was staunchly anti-imperial and anti-imperialist. Is there used to attempt the arrest in December last year of not something vaguely imperial about the ambition of Tzipi Livni, Leader of the Opposition in Israel and universal jurisdiction, the idea that a British court can former Foreign Minister. Hamas has since admitted detain and arrest the leader of another country? Is that that it worked in co-ordination with lawyers in this not an inversion of the anti-imperial tradition of which country on that case to try to achieve that. As my right he used to be an advocate? hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree said, that has led to the cessation of visits by Israeli leaders Mr. Marshall-Andrews: It is not just our courts, but and senior officials, dangerously affecting our relations all the courts of any country that has signed the fourth with that country and, more importantly, our influence Geneva convention and its protocol. That is the point, over the middle east peace process. the jurisdiction is universal, which is the precise opposite I should like to say a few words in support of the of colonial. It is a universal jurisdiction, so that those commitments made by the Attorney-General in Jerusalem who commit war crimes and atrocities know that their earlier this month, and the Foreign Secretary last month, movement will be restricted in the world. Ironically, to look at ways in which the system can be reformed, those who denied the freedom of movement to others, because if we are going to retain our strategic partnership find that movement is denied to them. with Israel and continue to have a constructive role in I shall oppose—I very much hope that the wider any middle east conflict it is vital that Israeli visitors, House will oppose—any attempt to restrict universal whether in Government or not, are able to come to this jurisdiction at the behest of any state, however powerful, country for meetings with UK politicians and the wider whose leaders are accused and against whom there is community. It is important to recognise that Ms Livni is prima facie evidence of committing such crimes. a strong proponent of the two-state solution and of renewing peace negotiations, yet her visit was cancelled, Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): Was my hon. and so she could not discuss with our Government those learned Friend ashamed of a British Prime Minister specific issues that would help the peace process rather referring to the report as describing the “crimes” of than hinder it. That is the consequence of this action. Hamas and the “alleged crimes” of Israel? Has not that perception of a lack of even-handedness—that kind of I would like to see the law reforms. I support the hard power—aroused the antagonism of much of the principle of universal jurisdiction for international law, Muslim community, in our local mosques and throughout but I would like to see our courts protected from being the world, and fuelled the terrorist threats? used as campaign forums by politically motivated groups that are not really interested in justice, but are interested Mr. Marshall-Andrews: I agree. The perception of in scoring party political or other political points in this partiality in respect of Israel has long dogged not just long-running conflict in the middle east, which is not this Government but British Governments generally. It going to be resolved in courts of law. Our courts have is high time that such partiality finished. How it is been left dangerously open to political manipulation articulated—the semantics used—are carefully chosen. and being brought into disrepute. There is a way forward by allowing the Attorney-General to decide whether 11.49 am this should happen. The Attorney-General is, in the Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I am pleased end, responsible for deciding which prosecutions should to contribute to today’s debate, because it is a year on go ahead, based on the likelihood of both a conviction since last winter’s devastating Gaza conflict and we now and a public interest test. We may have the embarrassment have the report from Goldstone. I agree with the of leaders being arrested but no prosecution following Government that the report raises serious questions on from that. that need to be answered but at the same time is pretty Although this state of affairs has little appeal to flawed. those who have serious concerns, it is now attracting the efforts of those seeking to use our law to embarrass foreign political leaders who they dislike. We need [MR.JIM HOOD in the Chair] international, universal jurisdiction to deal with people I asked the Minister of State, Foreign and such as the genocidaires from Rwanda and war criminals Commonwealth Office, my hon. Friend the Member for from Bosnia and Serbia, and the war lord from Afghanistan Bury, South (Mr. Lewis) a parliamentary question about who was prosecuted successfully, but this is not what it the report and he set out the flaws in November last was designed or intended for. year: it did not adequately recognise Israel’s right to protect its citizens or pay sufficient attention to Hamas’s Richard Burden: If my hon. Friend is saying that a actions; it made broad assertions about detailed better way of operating the law of universal jurisdiction interpretation of international law over which we differ; would be to involve the Attorney-General at an earlier and it lacked an authority of Israeli perspective, so stage in determining whether there should be arrest, not crucial to determining the legality of the actions. just deciding whether there should be a prosecution, My right hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, does he think it was wise for that same post-holder—the Wavertree (Jane Kennedy) mentioned the rocket attacks Attorney-General—to go to Israel and give a guarantee by Palestinian militants, targeted at innocent civilians in in advance that, as far as the British Government are 201WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 202WH

[Richard Burden] of international law during the Gaza conflict, although the Goldstone is merely an indictment not a proven concerned, no Israeli leader would be arrested if they fact, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for came to the UK? Is not that rather prejudicing her Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) said—unlike my hon. office? Friend the Member for Battersea (Martin Linton) who, on introducing the debate, effectively took it as proven Mr. Dismore: I do not think that is right. I think we fact—and although Israel’s current investigations may had a serious diplomatic problem with Israel that needed not be perfect, it is right that we give Israel the opportunity to be resolved sensibly. The approach being adopted by to show the international community that it is taking the Foreign Secretary, with whom I discussed this matter these allegations seriously. last night, is sensible. We need to work with the Ministry We should at least wait to hear the outcome of Israel’s of Justice and the Foreign Office to find a sensible investigation before offering premature condemnations, solution to this issue to enable us to prosecute people such as we have heard today. Israel may establish a fully such as the Rwandan genocidaires, yet at the same time independent inquiry. play a constructive role in the middle east peace process, which these efforts hinder. Mr. Marshall-Andrews: Will my hon. Friend give way? Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend give way? Mr. Dismore: No, there is not time. Several prominent Members of the Knesset, including Mr. Dismore: If I give way any more, nobody else is Kadima party MK and chair of the Israel-United Kingdom going to get in. Parliamentary Friendship League, Nachman Shai, have The Government have rightly called for Israel to called for such a judicial inquiry into Operation Cast conduct an independent inquiry into what happened, as Lead in response to Goldstone. did Goldstone, and this call has been echoed by Israel is entitled, as a liberal democracy, to time to international partners as well as many NGOs. I welcome respond to the Goldstone report fully. I do not see any the answer given by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead in sign of Hamas setting up an inquiry into the war crimes the other place to a parliamentary question earlier this that it is alleged to have committed, with considerable month, saying that the Israeli authorities have carried evidence behind the allegations, such as rocketing Israeli out, or are currently undertaking, investigations into civilians indiscriminately or using its own citizens as 140 separate incidents, including but not limited to the human shields effectively to maximise casualties to create 34 highlighted by Goldstone inquiry. Although those the pressure on Israel that we have seen. Only last week, investigations are being carried out by the IDF and not there were three rockets fired into and 10 mortar attacks by an independent body, which would be preferable, the on Israel from Gaza, endangering innocent lives as well fact that Israel is conducting these inquiries should not as the efforts of the international community to get be ignored. Too often Israel is painted as a country Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations restarted. The situation incapable of self-scrutiny. Yet we only need to look in Gaza is unlikely to improve while these attacks are back as far as 2006, to the Winograd investigation and still occurring and Hamas refuses to renounce violence. to 2005, to the Sasson Report, to know that this is far Although I disagree with the level of restrictions from true. Winograd was in response to the Lebanon imposed by Israel at the crossings into Gaza, we should conflict in 2006 and Sasson was commissioned to look not forget the threat that Israel faces. Removing these into the funding of settlement expansion. restrictions means that Hamas and other terrorist groups Sasson exposed the fact that state bodies were covertly will have greater opportunity to smuggle in weapons diverting funds to settlements improperly and the Winograd and carry out terrorist attacks. Hamas has, in the past, report was critical of the military strategy employed in used such building materials to fortify its military the second Lebanon war, particularly the decision to infrastructure and construct weapons. Egypt’s recent respond with an immediate intensive military strike, blocking of crossings from Egypt into Gaza, and the following the kidnapping of Israeli servicemen, Ehud fact that it deported the hon. Member for Bethnal and Goldwasser. Israel has, in the past, conducted Green and Bow (Mr. Galloway), are signs of its changing proper inquiries into such matters, found itself wanting attitude to some of the problems that it is now seeing, and acted accordingly. which Israel has seen for a long time. Israel has established a legal system that is respected Mr. Hood, I do not want to take up any more time. throughout the world, with a Supreme Court that is Our Government have the right approach to both open to all, with few restrictions on its jurisdiction. On international universal jurisdiction and the Goldstone 29 December 2009, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled report. I commend them on their stance so far and hope that a 14 km west bank stretch of Israel’s highway 443, that that will continue and that there will be an early a main road between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, should announcement on how they intend to deal with universal not be closed to Palestinians, despite the military’s fears jurisdiction. that after six Israeli deaths on the road in terror attacks during the second intifada, opening the road could Mr. Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I hope to start result in more deaths of Israeli citizens. Nevertheless, winding up round about 12 o’clock. the Israeli Supreme Court decided that that road should be opened. 11.58 am I highlight these points because they are too often overlooked. Although our Government were right to Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s call for Israel to conduct an inquiry into possible breaches Bush) (Lab): Mr. Hood, I take your hint. 203WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 204WH

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Martin report and universal jurisdiction are vital not just as Linton), whom I congratulate on securing this debate, I arcane debating points here, but to our constituents and was an eye witness to the immediate aftermath of the to the Palestinian people in Gaza and the west bank. invasion of Gaza—as were my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) and the 12.2 pm hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey)—as part of the first parliamentary delegation into Gaza Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): after the withdrawal of the IDF. Therefore the report The hon. Member for Battersea (Martin Linton) has has a certain poignancy, in addition to that felt by other done the House a great service by proposing the debate. hon. Members who have taken the trouble to read it. All the contributions so far show that people are engaged and feel very strongly on both sides. Yes, we did see the destruction of entire villages, hospitals, some of the 280 schools and some of the When an action such as Operation Cast Lead happens, 95 per cent. of private industry that was destroyed. We it is right that we get to the facts. Those of us who saw saw the destruction of civil society, including police the pictures on television, whether from al-Jazeera or stations. Nearly 250 police officers were killed in deliberate other sources, and who heard the reports coming out of bombing attacks, most on the first day of the bombing. Gaza at the time said we felt that the action was Yes, we did stand in the rubble of the legislature in Gaza disproportionate and there was a case for investigating and we spoke to some of its democratically elected allegations of war crimes on both sides. Members. I thought that that would have some resonance I was delighted to be invited and felt strongly enough for hon. Members in this House, even those who seem to go to Gaza to see the situation for myself, as part of to have a blind spot in discussing this issue—unlike my the parliamentary delegation that was mentioned. The hon. Friend the Member for Battersea—and seeing facts that we saw on the ground in a limited, restricted both sides of the argument. way, given our time and ability to verify things, only Yes, there were atrocities on both sides, but confirmed what we had seen on television—that the disproportionately and massively, more atrocities were destruction was huge and wanton. Some of the villages committed by Israeli forces. If the deaths of 352 children we saw had been targeted not just for military targets, are not a murderous act as my right hon. Friend the but for civilian targets. We talked to people who lived Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Jane Kennedy) said, there, who said that first they had been fired on from I do not know what is. We saw the evidence of white the air, then the tanks had fired on their houses and, phosphorous having been used; it was still reignitable because some were still standing, the troops then came three weeks after the troops had left. Yes, I have been to in, laid charges and blew the rest of the houses down. Ashkelon and seen the conditions that people live in We went to that village, stood on the rubble and saw and yes, that is intolerable, but it is a functioning house after house that had been destroyed, so if anyone modern city, as Sderot is. One cannot make a comparison tells me that they think that was correct action, fair between the suffering of people in Gaza and the suffering action and along the lines of international law, I cannot of people in Israel in that respect. accept it. I shall mention two other points. The first, which is Mr. Carswell rose— dealt with in the Goldstone report, is the suppression by the Israeli authorities of organisations such as Breaking Mr. Davey: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman; I the Silence and B’Tselem, and the bombing of UNRWA— hope he will answer that point. the United Nations Relief and Works Agency—facilities. Again, the eyewitness reports that we received and the Mr. Carswell: We all recognise that there have been people we met, mainly through the facility of those well many victims of the conflict and many horrific things respected organisations, are also unable to tell their happened, but will the hon. Gentleman also recognise story to the outside world. Of course, the siege continues. that some of the victims are casualties of the terrorist Only 15 per cent. of the trade that was getting into tactic of launching attacks from close proximity to Gaza before the blockade started is getting there now. civilian centres? I ask my hon. Friend the Minister two questions. First, please will he address what the Government’s Mr. Davey: We visited Ashkelon and saw the damage attitude to the Goldstone report is now and why, given that had been done by Hamas rockets, and the report is the time that has elapsed, the Government cannot come very clear, quite rightly, that firing by Hamas and other off the fence and say that the allegations made in Palestinian militant groups from Gaza indiscriminately Goldstone ought to be investigated? Secondly, the universal on Israeli civilians is a war crime and a crime against jurisdiction point is not about the dark arts of diplomacy humanity. I condemn every single one of those rockets and Government-to-Government discussions; it is an fired indiscriminately against civilians. [Interruption.] important point about civil liberties for this country. The hon. Gentleman is talking about where they were Many hon. Members, as well as many of our constituents, fired from, but I do not know how he knows where they will not stomach attempts by the British Government to were all fired from. Some were clearly fired from civilian remove traditions that we are very proud of in this centres, but if he thinks that justifies wiping out—razing country simply because somebody described as an to the ground—a whole village, he is coming at this international partner requests us to do so. from a different political perspective from mine. In the context of what is happening in the middle We did not just visit homes and speak to people. We east, the failure to secure a settlement freeze, the injustice saw the hospitals and schools that had been destroyed. suffered by the Palestinian people, the effect that has on We went to an ice cream factory. The report talks about moderates and particularly President Abbas at the moment, the cement factory, the flour mill and the water and in the west bank and the Gaza strip, the Goldstone sewage works, but we also saw ice cream factories. We 205WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 206WH

[Mr. Davey] Steven Haines, Professor Françoise Hampson and Professor Sir Nigel Rodley. Together, they were an extremely met a Palestinian entrepreneur who had been working experienced and expert group to consider issues of with Israeli businesses for 20 or 30 years, supplying ice international law. They looked into the criticisms of the cream to Israel, and had been one of the moderates in procedural aspects of Goldstone and their report concluded: Gaza, trying to get free enterprise going in Gaza. He “The meeting was of the view that the Report was very far told us that he was absolutely disillusioned by the from being invalidated by the criticisms. The Report raised extremely Israelis, how his business had been destroyed, how serious issues which had to be addressed. It contained compelling people had been thrown out of work and that it was evidence on some incidents.” completely unjustifiable because he had never allowed That is the judgment of independent academics who are any Hamas militant anywhere near his factories. experts in the field, and therefore I do not think that the Those are the facts about what we saw, but I readily report can be dismissed. I hope that the Government confess that it was limited and could not be verified on will tell us what they intend to do at the UN and every account. The question is how far Judge Goldstone’s regarding their relations with Israel, to ensure that the report gets to the truth. It cannot get all the way there. report is answered; it cannot be shelved. We need to Israel refused to take part, so the mission did not hear hear the full answers, and to ensure that people are held from both sides, which is a limitation of the report, but to account. Any moves to undermine the need for Judge Goldstone can hardly be criticised for that. accountability on such matters should be opposed.

Christine Russell (City of Chester) (Lab): Does the 12.10 pm hon. Gentleman believe that the fact that the Israelis Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): I congratulate refused to take part enhances the perception of bias in the hon. Member for Battersea (Martin Linton) on the whole report and that it would have been much securing the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for more helpful if there had been co-operation from the Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington), who would have responded Israelis? to the debate on behalf of the Opposition, has asked me to express his apologies. He is visiting Tokyo at the Mr. Davey: Of course. My point is that the Goldstone invitation of the Japanese Government. report cannot be criticised because one party refused to The contributions that we have heard this morning give evidence. from both sides of the House show the strength of There are some valid criticisms of the report. One is feeling about Gaza that exists among members of all that the resolution tabled at the UN to create the debate political parties. What happened in Gaza during the on the report and the follow-through from the report Israeli military action 12 months ago was an appalling was biased. It was not as balanced as the report itself. human tragedy, and today the people of Gaza—1 million The Government did not actually abstain—they were or more of our fellow human beings—continue to not in the room—but I can understand why they would suffer. The debate has also shown how opinions about have abstained if they had been in the room, because of events in Gaza have become polarised, which reflects the limitations of the resolution. the stark division of opinion in the middle east itself. To However, some of the other criticisms levelled at the most Israelis, Operation Cast Lead was a necessity, a Goldstone report do not stand up to analysis. People national duty even. Israel had withdrawn from the talk about a biased mandate. Judge Goldstone amended Gaza strip—dismantling its settlements and evicting the mandate to ensure that it was balanced and brought settlers by force—and she hoped for peace. Instead, she in the issue of rockets fired on civilians from Gaza. saw Gaza taken over by a group dedicated to Israel’s destruction and rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. When People say that the report is politically motivated; I talk to Israeli representatives, I find that they express they talk about many of the shortcomings of the United regret about the loss of life among civilians in Gaza, but Nations Human Rights Council. However, the report they point to the fact that in 2008 and 2009 more than was written not by the Human Rights Council, but by 1,750 rockets and more than 1,500 mortar shells were one of the world’s greatest jurists, who is an expert at fired into Israel. To most Israelis, including men and looking into war crimes as a result of his experience in women passionately committed to peace and to a two-state Rwanda and Yugoslavia. solution, military action in Gaza was justified by the One criticism says that the report did not adequately need to protect their fellow citizens. recognise Israel’s right to protect its citizens. That is a In the Arab and the wider Muslim world, an utterly fundamental misunderstanding of the report’s mandate. different narrative is heard. The argument there is that The report was not set up to look into the legality of the an imperfect but more or less effective ceasefire was war, but to look into the behaviour of all parties during wrecked by Israeli incursions into Gaza, which prompted that conflict. Therefore, I do not think that criticism can retaliatory attacks from Hamas. Night after night, television undermine the findings and thrust of the Goldstone screens showed shocking graphic images of women and report. children killed and maimed by Israeli bullets and shells. I am particularly taken by the findings of the expert Not only Syria and Iran, but traditionally more moderate meeting convened at Chatham House at the end of countries such as Turkey and Malaysia, reacted with November last year, referred to briefly by the hon. anger. Member for Battersea. It involved a number of experts We can understand why Israel felt compelled to take in international and humanitarian law: Elizabeth action to protect her citizens from rocket attacks, but Wilmshurst, whom people will know as the former there can be no doubt that the war in Gaza has damaged Foreign Office legal adviser, Professor Matthew Craven, prospects for peace in the middle east and Israel’s hopes Dr. Catriona Drew, Professor Charles Garraway, Professor for permanent security along with it, and has caused an 207WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 208WH immense and continuing humanitarian crisis in the international presence on the ground to help to overcome Gaza strip. We shall not get an enduring peace in the the political obstacles to restoring the normal flow of middle east unless that legacy can be addressed, and goods for civilian use? both political and economic progress can be made with One consequence of events in Gaza has been the regard to Gaza. That includes addressing the serious increased risk to Israeli politicians of arrest if they visit and grave allegations of human rights violations that the United Kingdom, as we have heard in today’s debate. have been made against both the Israeli defence forces It is essential that Israeli leaders should be able to come and Hamas. Throughout the conflict, we called for to this country to talk about bilateral relations, and in those allegations to be fully investigated, and we have particular about the middle east peace process. I note supported the establishment of a UN fact-finding mission that the Attorney-General said recently that the to Gaza and the work of Judge Goldstone. It is a pity Government intended to address that problem, possibly that the Israeli Government decided not to engage with by changes to legislation, but I hope that the Minister the commission, because the consequence is that the will give us a bit more detail when he replies. report lacks an authoritative Israeli perspective on the It is in the interests of the United Kingdom to see a military and legal criteria that the Israeli defence force genuine and enduring peace settlement between Israel used. and the Palestinians. In our view, that settlement has to Like the Government, we think that the Goldstone be based upon a two-state solution in which Gaza report has flaws. It refers to the rocket attacks on Israel, forms an integral part of a sovereign and viable Palestinian describing them in paragraph 108 as probable war state. Such a solution is vital to the future safety and crimes, and it also denounces how Gilad Shalit is being security of Israelis and Palestinians alike. held and criticises Hamas for the murder and abuse of its political opponents inside Gaza, but those paragraphs make up only a small proportion of a report, the bulk 12.19 pm of which deals with allegations against the Israeli forces The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): I wholeheartedly and makes severe criticisms of them. It does not adequately congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea recognise Israel’s legal right to protect its citizens; nor (Martin Linton) on securing the debate. He has always does it pay sufficient attention to the actions of Hamas. been a courageous politician, who speaks out on the We continue to believe that the allegations listed in issues that matter most to him, and I hope that he has a the Goldstone report need to be fully investigated, and successful year. I also congratulate him on how he has addressed by both Israel and the Palestinians. It is a pity advanced his cause. Many of us saw the horrific events that the resolution tabled at the UN Human Rights last year, and have responded all around the world with Council was so utterly one-sided, failing even to mention heartfelt concern for those affected. My hon. Friend Hamas by name. That is why we called on the Government put his case very well. to vote against the resolution. The Government’s action The Government’s position starts firmly from the in instructing the British delegate to leave the room belief that, in all our responses, we should focus on the rather than to vote either way, or even record a formal desirability of an enduring peace in the middle east. All abstention, was an abdication of responsibility. hon. Members will know the Government’s position, The Goldstone report also deals at length with the but I state for the record that we believe in a two-state humanitarian problems in Gaza, which were made much solution, with a viable—not violable, as I believe I heard worse by the war and continue today. We want to see the the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr. Newmark) say— crossing points reopened as soon as possible, to allow Palestinian state and Israel secure within her borders. food, medical and hospital supplies to be brought in Of course, as two of my hon. Friends said, Israel has without limit. The Israeli authorities have told us that an absolute right to protect itself. However, that does they believe such humanitarian aid is being allowed not give it carte blanche to use any means that it wants, through but that Hamas activists prevent it from reaching and nor does it allow it to stray beyond the bounds of ordinary people. The aid agencies tell us that basic what is morally right or what is legally right under needs are still not being met. Will the Minister give us international law—or, for that matter, under its own the British Government’s assessment of the adequacy law. of food and medical supplies reaching Gaza, and what Similarly, Israel has a right to build homes for its action they are taking to improve matters on the ground? people, but it does not have the right to build homes In a written answer dated 2 November 2009, the exactly where it chooses. We have made it absolutely Government said that the United Kingdom had not yet clear that we are critical of all plans to continue with the been able to spend any of the £20 million of funding settlement process, particularly in East Jerusalem. We earmarked for reconstruction in Gaza because of believe that Israel should stop all illegal settlements. restrictions imposed by Israel on the entry of building Indeed, that is why we supported the statement made at materials. The essential reconstruction of homes, schools the European Council’s December meeting: and health facilities is not happening, and well over half “The Council is deeply concerned about the situation in East of Gaza’s population does not have daily access to Jerusalem. In view of recent incidents, it calls on all parties to water. That state of affairs is morally wrong, and can refrain from provocative actions. The Council recalls that it has surely only add to the bitterness that will make political never recognised the annexation of East Jerusalem. If there is to be genuine peace, a way must be found through negotiations to reconciliation even more difficult to achieve. What actions resolve the status of Jerusalem as the future capital of two states.” are the Government taking both bilaterally and through the European Union to find ways to accelerate the pace That is strongly our view as well. of reconstruction in Gaza? What is the status of negotiations We also urge upon Israel the absolute seriousness of to reopen the crossing points, and does the Minister the humanitarian situation in Gaza, which was mentioned believe that there might need to be some kind of by several hon. Members. It is morally indefensible to 209WH Goldstone Report12 JANUARY 2010 Goldstone Report 210WH

[Chris Bryant] concept of universal jurisdiction. The question is how it is prosecuted in individual countries. Discussions about kettle the Palestinian people. The hon. Member for how we can move forward are ongoing, and I hope that Braintree asked about the Government’s view on enabling they will bear fruit in the near future. the reconstruction of Gaza. We do not believe that that is moving fast enough. With our colleagues in the Jeremy Corbyn: The problem with the Minister’s European Union, we have urged Israel to be open to description is this: if the law is changed to allow the much more humanitarian aid. We are not able to provide universal arrest warrant to be issued against individuals the support that we stand ready to give, and we urge only with the permission of the Director of Public Israel to do more. Prosecutions or the Attorney-General—or the Home Secretary, the equivalent of the Minister of the Interior— Mr. Carswell: The Minister says that we should ensure one moves straight into the political field. We have that we do not kettle the people of Gaza. Two countries already heard statements from Ministers here that Israeli border Gaza. Egypt, too, has responsibilities in that Ministers and leaders, whoever they might be, must be regard. free to travel in this country. That suggests that the ability to obtain an arrest warrant through a district Chris Bryant: Yes, of course. That is why we want to judge is a powerful and important instrument for human ensure that humanitarian aid can get through. However, rights and humanitarian law. aid is also needed to enable people to rebuild homes that were destroyed a year ago. To us, that seems a vital Chris Bryant: In some aspects, my hon. Friend has a part of the ongoing peace process. That is why I am point. It is not that the Government want literally any glad that the European Union came to a clear view on politician, anywhere in the world, to be free to come to the matter before Christmas. The continued policy of the UK because we want a conversation with them. closure was unacceptable and, we believe, politically However, I push it back to the hon. Gentleman: if we counter-productive. are to secure peace in the middle east it would be Jane Kennedy: I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend difficult were politicians—it is different for Ministers, as when he is in full flow. The EU passed a view on that they would not be caught—not able to travel to the UK. point, but may I press him on the matter? Will the EU, We have an important role. and my hon. Friend in discussion with other Ministers, do more than take a view and come together to see Several hon. Members rose— whether solutions cannot be found to help Israel find ways to open the border crossing? Chris Bryant: I give way first to the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Carswell). Chris Bryant: Yes. There is constant discussion between our Prime Minister and others, particularly Mr. Sarkozy, Mr. Carswell: Briefly, on the Tzipi Livni case, will we the President of France, about how we might do that. change the law? Yes or no? If so, when? However, I do not want to underestimate the difficulties. Of course, while Hamas refuses to renounce violence, it Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman did not quite will always be more difficult. I return to the fact that, catch me saying that discussions are ongoing, but I am especially in winter months, there is a real humanitarian sorry to say that I shall disappoint him. I am not able to crisis in Gaza. We want to see humanitarian aid and reveal what the Government intend, but I hope that we other aid get through as fast as possible. will soon be able to do so. We support the idea of Several hon. Members spoke of universal jurisdiction. universal jurisdiction, but how it is applied in the UK is We wholeheartedly support that concept. That is why a matter for us to consider. None the less, other countries we have always supported the International Criminal would not be able to move to a prosecution without a Court. On a slightly different point, it is why we have prosecutor having made a case, and without the police always supported the European arrest warrant. There having requested a warrant. It is important that we are crimes that need to be prosecuted, whether through move to a system under which politicians from Israel—and, the European arrest warrant or the international arrest for that matter, other countries—should be able to warrant. We need people to appear before a court, and travel to the UK, but as I said earlier, it should not be a to be prosecuted. However, the direct parallel with carte blanche arrangement for all. General Pinochet drawn by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) is a slightly different Richard Burden: That goes to the heart of why people matter. believe that there are double standards. The Minister I was disappointed that, for a time, it was not possible refers to what the Government are looking at doing in to bring Pinochet to trial for the undoubtedly criminal relation to the question of international jurisdiction acts that he ordered in Chile, not least because several and its applicability in the UK. In relation to settlements, of my friends were killed there under his dictatorship. the blockade and Goldstone, he speaks not of what the That case was slightly different, however; the problem Government are doing but of what they are saying. If was extradition. In the present case, it is vital that they are going to do something about universal jurisdiction, international war crimes are prosecuted. It seems odd what will they do to ensure that the Goldstone report is and unusual that in England and Wales—but not in properly investigated and the matter tried in an Scotland, which has a different legal system—arrest internationally recognised institution? warrants can be sought and issued without the prior request of the police or the advice of a prosecutor. That Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. is different from what pertains in many other countries. Incidentally, I pay tribute to my hon. and learned The key point is that we wholeheartedly support the Friend the Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews); 211WH Goldstone Report 12 JANUARY 2010 212WH it is a sadness that Parliament will not have the benefit Davies Review of his counsel after the election. However, he and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield 12.30 pm (Richard Burden) both said that evidence needs to be Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): This is the fifth time tested. They are right. that I have had the pleasure of initiating a debate on I pay tribute to many elements of the Goldstone free-to-air sporting events. The first such occasion was report. There were 188 interviews, and more than on 2 April 2003—we were all so much younger then—and 300 reports were reviewed. However, it does not provide that was followed by debates in January 2005, in 2008 and the whole story. The report itself acknowledges that, in April 2009. However, I have never been more optimistic but it was for reasons to do with Israel’s not providing or more chipper about the future of listed sporting evidence and not engaging with the report, which we events than I am on this occasion, and that is largely deprecate. We wish that Israel had taken part. because of the findings of the Davies committee review of listed events. The Davies review is the fifth such review since 1981, when the then Conservative Government passed the Broadcasting Act 1981, which put listed events on a statutory basis for the first time; before that, there had just been an agreement between the BBC and the Independent Broadcasting Authority. With some reservations, I welcome many of the recommendations in the Davies committee report. Three fundamental principles underlie the report. First, it recognises the relevance of listed events in the digital age. Although there will be far more channels than in the past, not everyone will be able to afford the £400 that Sky Sports, for example, costs, so the basic divide will remain. Secondly, the report provides interesting analysis of how many people have access to premium sports channels. Frontier Economics did a study for the committee and calculated that on the basis that 60 per cent. of BSkyB customers and 25 per cent. of Virgin Media customers subscribe to premium sports channels, and given that Ofcom estimates that there were about 12.5 million pay-TV households in 2008, about 6.1 million households have access to premium sports channels, which means that an awful lot of households have no access. Thirdly, the review provided statistics underlining the fact that an event will attract far more viewers when it is on the A list than when it is on subscription TV. There are many examples of that. When Andy Murray was in the final of the 2008 US Open, viewing figures on Sky peaked at 1.4 million, compared with 12.7 million on the BBC when Nadal played Federer at Wimbledon. In the same year that viewing figures for Open golf reached about 13 million on the BBC, those for the Ryder cup reached about 3.6 million on Sky. I welcome the fact that the Davies review reinforced all those points. I also welcome the additions that the review proposed to the A list of events that must be made available to free-to-air TV. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Before the hon. Gentleman moves on to the debate about the A list, may I congratulate him on bringing to the House a debate that affects the quality of life of millions of people? People are really interested in this issue and want us to address it and get policy right. Before he moves away from Sky, however, does he deplore its charging policy for pubs and clubs, which adds to the divide that he mentioned and denies access to key sporting events to a group of people who work hard all their lives and who deserve to see sporting events? Mr. Grogan: As chairman of the all-party group on beer, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the issue of subscription TV access to sport in pubs is often pressed on me. Sky’s charges have gone up by about 800 per 213WH Davies Review12 JANUARY 2010 Davies Review 214WH

[Mr. Grogan] could sit up through the night last summer watching their national team’s defeat, even though we could not cent. over the years, which makes it difficult for many have the pleasure of doing so in the UK without access publicans to show subscription sport. It is also unfortunate to Sky TV. I have spoken to Cricket Australia, which is that publicans can access Sky Sports channels only much more positive about Australian legislation on the through the Sky Sports platform and not other platforms, issue—also being reviewed at the moment—than the which is a restraint on competition. England and Wales Cricket Board is about proposals here, and it is possible that some 2020 events will be Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): I, too, listed in the Australian review. In Australia, people congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing a debate argue that English cricket is an example of why the on a long-held interest of his, which I share. Although I country needs to retain its list. Equally, in Germany, accept that the viewing figures are much lower on France, Ireland, Belgium and Italy, the national football paid-for TV channels such as Sky, does he accept that team’s qualifying matches are currently listed. Sky has done an enormous amount to raise the standard It is also worth remembering that free-to-air broadcasters of TV sports coverage? do not get their rights for free when it comes to the A list; they have to pay a fair and reasonable price. The Mr. Grogan: I accept entirely that Sky Sports coverage, rights holders—the ECB or anyone else—can appeal to for those who have access to it, is magnificent. Sky has the regulator, Ofcom, to set that price, which is partly developed its platform and its business in an era when based on past prices and the state of the market. Most listed events have been part of our lives, so the two are governing bodies recognise the need for balance and not incompatible. For the serious sports fan who can share their rights between free-to-air and subscription afford subscription sport, Sky and ESPN—there could broadcasters. Rugby league famously does that and has be other players in the future—play a magnificent and seen a continuing increase in its income over the years, important role. sharing coverage between the BBC and Sky. Rugby The six events that the Davies committee suggested union and golf also adopt such an approach. The ECB should go on the A list were the home Ashes cricket has adopted a rather different approach in recent years, series; the qualifiers for the European football but it has been controversial in English cricket, and championships and the World cup in the home nations indeed was one of the major issues dividing the counties concerned; Welsh rugby union matches in the Six Nations, the last two times that Giles Clarke stood for election to for broadcast just in Wales; and the Open golf the ECB. championship, the rugby union world cup and the I would argue that in the national interest, some Wimbledon tennis tournament in their entirety. limited intervention is necessary, and I look to the views I have two qualifications, however, about a couple of of Andrew Strauss, the England cricket captain. On the deletions that the report proposes from the A list. 20 November 2009, The Times reported that Strauss First, it is interesting that the British Olympic Association had declined to support the ECB’s campaign to continue has opposed the deletion of the winter Olympics. We being allowed to sell broadcast coverage of the Ashes to are all looking forward to Vancouver in a few weeks’ the highest bidder in the free market: time, and who knows when we will have another curling “The England captain preferred to cite both sides of the moment or another Torvill and Dean moment, when argument rather than explicitly back his employer, which has the nation, to its surprise—certainly on the former claimed that returning live Ashes matches to terrestrial broadcasters occasion—was gripped by British success at the winter from 2016 would lead to significant cuts in funding…Strauss described the case for a return to terrestrial television as ‘very Olympics? The British Olympic Association is wise to important and very valid’, adding: ‘If more people watching a suggest that the winter Olympics should remain on the cricket match means that more people play, that is a huge benefit, list. Similarly, the rugby league challenge cup final has but if you have more funding to allow people to play the game been discussed in a separate debate, so I will not dwell then that is important as well. There are two sides.’”. on it, but it is seen as a central event in national life, That statement was brave and important. particularly in the north of England, and there is a case for keeping it on the list, particularly as that is the view Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely of the rugby league authorities themselves. powerful case. Does he agree that coverage of the home Secondly, Davies suggests dropping the B list of Ashes could be shown on both free-to-air and pay TV, events that must be made available in highlight form. as in South Africa? Highlights were extremely politically controversial last year, when the highlights of the England versus Ukraine Mr. Grogan: Absolutely, and the listed events regime football match became available only at the last minute allows that to happen. For the Ashes, we are in effect and those of the British Lions tour of South Africa talking about 2017 because the 2013 series has already were available only in Wales. That shows the potential been sold. However, that seems to be the obvious solution, for the B list to help viewers. and there are precedents for it. This year and in previous years, Sky and the BBC have both shown the FA cup The central point I want to address is that the governing final live, and in the future that will be true of ESPN bodies may not have reacted quite so positively to the and ITV. In all cases, only some of the rights of any Davies committee report. Some have suggested that governing body will be listed. For cricket, the vast expanding the A list will have a real impact on grass-roots majority of test matches, one-day internationals and so support, and I want to rebut that argument in a number on will be up for sale to the highest bidder, should the of ways. ECB so wish. It is unlikely that Sky and other subscription First, it is worth remembering that many of our broadcasters will walk away from the table, particularly sporting competitors have protected-list events. In Australia, if there is the potential to simulcast the Ashes series in for example, cricket test matches are listed, and Australians 2017, which is some way away. 215WH Davies Review12 JANUARY 2010 Davies Review 216WH

There are also the national football teams of Scotland, might persuade the company to continue sponsorship Wales and Northern Ireland. It is a great pity that until beyond its present deal, which expires in 2011. A recent Scotland qualifies for a European championship or a report from Deloitte, commissioned by BSkyB and World cup, someone could grow up in Scotland and entitled, “The impact of broadcasting on sports in the never see their national team on free-to-air TV. It is UK”, noted that for rugby union, a key benefit of the important to recognise that the Davies proposals suggest Six Nations free-to-air strategy was the impact on that qualifying matches be listed only in the home sponsorship revenue. Exposure on free-to-air TV could nation concerned. Football authorities in Scotland would have various effects. still be able to sell the rights to the rest of the United I have a number of further points. I urge the Government Kingdom, and there would probably be competitive to make a decision swiftly after the consultation period bidding, particularly between the BBC and ITV. With ends in March. As I understand it, this is an area where digital expansion, many more channels will meet the a Minister can decide; there is no further parliamentary qualifying criteria of availability to 95 per cent. of the process and it is something that can be wrapped up population. Once we have digital switchover, instead of before the general election. I hope that free-to-air five channels qualifying for those criteria, there could broadcasters look carefully at the new list, if there is well be 10, 15 or more. one. There is a responsibility, particularly on the BBC, Most governing bodies receive public money from to look at the list that Parliament has decided on and do the lottery and the Sports Council to fund grass-roots everything possible to ensure that events on the A-list sport and other activities. That is explicitly recognised are shown on free-to-air TV. in the Government’s consultation document, which states Finally, the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, always that told the parliamentary Labour party that it was through “the Secretary of State…considers that a further factor that may the little things in government that a difference could be be of relevance in the balance, is the extent…to which the sport in made. This is not a matter of life and death, or peace question has received direct or indirect public funding”. and war, but—as the hon. Member for Castle Point Between 2009 and 2013, Sport England will give £37 million (Bob Spink) pointed out—it affects the quality of life of to cricket and £30 million to rugby union. The best many people. Many people have spent their lives figure I could find regarding how much money is raised volunteering as coaches, for example, in a variety of for grass-roots cricket from broadcasting contracts was sports, and they would like to spend their retirement around £13 million. That figure came from a study by being able to watch the great national and international Deloitte for BSkyB. The amounts of money that go in events on television. It is impossible to calculate the from broadcasting and from the public purse are not impact of sport on young people in inspiring them to dissimilar. It is worth remembering that £1.5 million of take up cricket, rugby, football or athletics. When the national lottery funding was invested in the new Welsh Olympic games are on free-to-air TV—I am told that rugby union centre of excellence, which opened last the BBC wants to show every event live in 2012—there month. SportScotland gave the Scottish Football will be a huge impact on the next generation in encouraging Association £1.4 million last year. them to take up sport. That impact cannot be measured, If the governing bodies believe in an entirely free but we know that it is of tremendous value to our market approach, why are they receiving public money? society. They cannot have it both ways. If hard-pressed taxpayers and lottery players are funding sports, should they not 12.48 pm be able to see some of the events on free-to-air TV? There is another interesting phrase in the Government’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, consultation document: Media and Sport (Mr. Siôn Simon): Let me congratulate “The Secretary of State also provisionally considers that a my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on his properly managed sporting body is likely to wish to have a erudite and insightful tour d’horizon from which, I am diversified income source, in particular because of the recognised sure hon. Members will agree, we have all profited. He vagaries of broadcasting revenue streams.” has been a dogged campaigner on this issue for many According to Giles Clarke’s written evidence to the years, and he now describes himself as chipper, which Davies committee, 80 per cent. of cricket’s income is will please us all. from broadcasting revenue, double that of the next I start by reaffirming the Government’s belief in nearest sport, which I think is Scottish football where ensuring that as many people as possible have the about 40 per cent. of income is derived from broadcasting. opportunity to enjoy our great sporting events via free-to-air Clearly, there is an imbalance, which cricket needs to television. We all recognise that sport is a key element in address. our national identity and part of the glue that binds us There is some controversy over the figures for together as a society.The excitement and interest generated participation in cricket. Cricketing bodies argue that by major sports events is something that little else on participation has increased in recent years, but research television can match. for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and The decision to review the listed events regime, to Sport England suggests that if there has been an increase ensure that it was fit for purpose, was based on a it has been marginal compared with sports such as number of factors. The Government recognised, as my cycling and athletics, which have much greater exposure hon. Friend said, that with the development of digital on free-to-air TV. technologies and other changes to the broadcasting It is likely that sponsorship will be higher with free-to-air environment, viewers now have a much greater choice exposure. On 13 October 2009, The Times reported that of channels, as well as a greater range of different ways Kevin Peake, the marketing director of npower, had to view sporting events. Viewers’ attitudes to subscription hinted that having the Ashes back on free-to-air television TV and the consumption of premium content, especially 217WH Davies Review12 JANUARY 2010 Davies Review 218WH

[Mr. Siôn Simon] expressed no view about, and took no account of, the impact or consequences of listing on a sport or sporting sports coverage, have changed, and to take account of body, stating that it considered that such matters were those developments we set up an independent panel to for the Secretary of State to take into account. My hon. review the regime and make recommendations to the Friend the Member for Selby put forward, interestingly Secretary of State. The panel, under the chairmanship and at some length, arguments to offset those that he of David Davies, was asked to review three areas: the anticipates will be put by some sporting bodies whose principle of a list; the criteria against which listed events events have been added to the list. could be chosen; and the content of any list. The Secretary of State’s provisional conclusion is As part of its work, the panel recognised the importance that, in making any final decision on which events of ensuring that its recommendations were informed by should be listed, he should take account of the possible as wide as possible a range of views. It undertook a impacts that such listing might have on the sport in public consultation from 8 April to 20 July. At the same question and on those broadcasters affected. For that time it wrote to 187 sporting, media, broadcasting, reason he considers that the major event test should be viewer and other organisations—domestic and international accompanied by an impact assessment. That will involve —inviting them all to participate in the consultation his considering any matters relating to the impacts of exercise. It consulted very widely; Davies did not just listing that are drawn to his attention, and then assessing make it up. Some of the organisations had meetings whether listing would have a disproportionate impact with panel members; others made submissions in writing. on the interests of those adversely affected by it. Having The panel visited the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh reached his provisional conclusions the Secretary of Assembly and arranged a joint meeting of the all-party State is required to carry out a statutory consultation groups on media and sports to hear Members’ views with the broadcasting authorities and any affected rights directly. The panel also commissioned quantitative and holders, in line with the Broadcasting Act 1996, before qualitative research to ascertain broader public views, announcing his final decision. The principal factors and an initial analysis of viewing patterns, as well as a that the Secretary of State has provisionally concluded general analysis of the impact of listing on the sale of should be taken into account are set out in the consultation sports broadcast rights. document, which was published last month. The panel reached clear conclusions as to the criterion It is important to emphasise that the Secretary of that should be used in determining whether an event State has provisionally arrived at the conclusion that he was capable of being listed—the major event test. It will accept the recommendations in the report, but that should be an event that he will consider the implications for sporting bodies “has a special resonance and not simply a significance to those and grass-roots sport, and has not reached any final who ordinarily follow the sport concerned”. views. He is still considering the issues. Such an event is likely to be a pre-eminent national or international event in sport or to involve the national Bob Spink: The Minister is making an impressive team or national representatives, and is likely in any speech, as always. When will the Secretary of State event to command a large television audience. The make an announcement? Will it be before the general panel identified a number of events that it felt passed election? the test, as set out in the report. Mr. Simon: The Secretary of State firmly intends to In response to the report, the Secretary of State has make an announcement before the election, even though provisionally concluded that he should accept the panel’s the consultation process does not close until, I think, recommendations on the retention of a list in principle the first week of March. It is a tight timetable in which and the use of the major event test to draw up the list. to do a proper job, but that is clearly his intention. He has also provisionally accepted the events that have been identified as passing the major event test. The The consultation is intended as an opportunity for Secretary of State considers that the panel has come those who want to respond to do so. forward with a persuasive set of reasons for retaining the listing system. He provisionally agrees that as many Mr. Rob Wilson: Will the Minister be clear about members of the UK population as possible should have when the impact assessment is taking place—particularly access to the important sporting events in question. for the home Ashes series? Is it under way? Otherwise, The media landscape is changing fast, but it appears how will it be possible to make an announcement before from the material before the panel that for varying the general election? reasons a significant proportion of the population do not have access to pay television and that although Mr. Simon: The impact assessment is the consultation some can see such events in other ways—perhaps, process. As part of that process the impact on sports expensively, at the pub—a significant proportion of and their revenues and on grass-roots sport is to be the population do not do so and will not in future. The considered now, given that it was not considered as part Secretary of State is particularly concerned about the of the Davies review. All of that will inform the firm inability of those on low incomes to access subscriber conclusions that the Secretary of State will seek to services upon which such events might otherwise be reach— having provisionally announced the conclusions broadcast. He considers it important that the UK and that he has already come to—as soon as possible after its individual nations should be able to promote their the consultation closes at the beginning of March. individual sense of identity. One way in which that is As hon. Members will know, listing does not guarantee achieved is through our all being able to join together in that an event will be shown live on free-to-air television. enjoyment and celebration of such important events. Similarly, excluding an event from the list does not However, it is important to recognise that the panel necessarily mean that it will be lost to free-to-air television. 219WH Davies Review 12 JANUARY 2010 220WH

We await the Secretary of State’s final views. We must Kurdistan not, and I cannot, pre-empt the consultation. Hon. Members, and my hon. Friend the Member for Selby in 12.58 pm particular, made good points and expressed strong views Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): It is a in the debate. The process remains open for interested pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Hood, parties to make input on any aspect of the consultation, and I am grateful for the opportunity for this debate. I particularly on the impact on finances and grass-roots am pleased to see the Minister. I admire him greatly for sport. It is open to anyone, so I encourage anybody with his conscientiousness in his task, and for his care and a strong view to put in their views before 5 March. I concern about the issues for which he is responsible. reiterate the Secretary of State’s firm intention to reach I am also pleased that other hon. Members can be a final conclusion swiftly after that. here to support the debate, and shall be happy to give way liberally to anyone who wants to intervene, and, subject to your consent, Mr. Hood, and the Minister’s, to cede time to hon. Members who want to contribute. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) returned from Kurdistan only this weekend, and I am sure that hon. Members will be keen to hear what she has to report to the House. I know that the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr. Clarke), who chairs the all-party parliamentary group on the Kurdistan region in Iraq, will also want to contribute to the debate. I place on the record my appreciation of Ibrahim Dogus, who has lobbied me since I was a London assembly member in 2000 on Kurdistan and the interests of the Kurdish community here. We have a very large Kurdish community in Croydon. I would also like to place on record my thanks to Akif Wan, of the Peace in Kurdistan campaign, for all the briefings that he has given me over the years. In the debate today, we have to canter through the issues, in terms of Kurdistan sitting abreast of Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran. However, I will try to touch on those concerns one after the other. In many ways, as British people we have some responsibility in the area, bearing in mind both the failure of the commitments we made, up to and including the treaty of Sèvres, and the 1946 expulsion of the Kurdistan Democratic party from Iraq by Britain after the second world war. However, that should not distract us from the fact that we have vital interests, separate from those of Kurdish people, in seeing proper peace and good trade in Kurdistan, not only because we are suffering from the difficulties of a clash of civilisations but because the region is of high importance to us in terms of our own energy security and that of our European partners. Of course, those considerations should not blind us to the importance of continuing to support the Government’s policy of being strongly opposed to any terrorist outrages by the PKK—the Kurdistan Workers party. However, I think we can be very positive about the approach that Kurds take. In the main, Kurds are secularist and have a very good understanding of the geopolitics of why it is not in the interests of the west to see an independent Kurdistan. We need to recognise that the Kurdish community in London is a very large contributor to the city. There are 250,000 Kurds in London and the rest of the UK. Obviously that is a smaller number than the 2 million who are in Istanbul, but none the less one can recognise the important part the Kurdish diaspora plays in Turkey. Turkey is a country that, in many ways, is a bulwark for security in Asia Minor. It is an ally of ours that has one of the biggest armies in NATO, an economy that is dynamic and a population with a very young age profile. 221WH Kurdistan12 JANUARY 2010 Kurdistan 222WH

[Mr. Andrew Pelling] political arrangement whereby the number of Kurdish representatives in the Turkish Parliament is taken below Therefore it would make a worthy entrant to the European the required 20, such that the party cannot operate any Union. Nevertheless, it is important for us that any more. discussions about EU membership for Turkey should When one thinks about the violent forced evacuations take the best possible advantage of any leverage to of Kurdish villages that took place in the 1990s, one can secure the proper treatment of Kurdish minorities, understand why Kurds might feel the temptation to be particularly defence of Kurdish people’s right to use very aggressive on these issues. However, it is encouraging their own language fully—not only within Turkish courts, that Ocalan, who has been put into even worse solitary as is currently allowed, but within political discourse in confinement conditions, is urging his colleagues to go Turkey—and most importantly in terms of human rights. down the constitutional route. It is also encouraging— although there may be a repeat of previous experience—that Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I congratulate the a new party, the Peace and Democracy party, will be hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate in launched on 1 February. the House. However, does he share my disappointment that the EU does not appear to have effectively used its There are obviously many implications for the whole influence to get Turkey to change its attitude to human region. Many of us also have Greek Cypriot and Turkish rights generally and to the Kurds in particular? I am Cypriot minorities in our communities. I was very pleased sure that he will acknowledge our debt to Kurds and to meet the Greek Cypriot Democratic Rally leader, Kurdistan, and that the UK has a historical duty to Nicos Anastasiades, because obviously there is also an those people and that region. This country has betrayed issue in relation to Cyprus. It is encouraging that, in those people for more than a hundred years, not least in many ways, Turkish Cypriots are now moving closer. failing to defend them properly during the atrocities— We should encourage Turkey to take a very positive view of tolerance of Kurdish language rights and other Mr. Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I think that the rights. Furthermore, through the European Union, we hon. Gentleman is making a speech and not an intervention. should encourage Turkey to respond to the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Bob Mr. Pelling: I am very grateful, Mr. Hood, for the Spink). The EU should say that a condition of EU comments of my hon. Friend. Britain has a great historical membership for Turkey must be the proper economic responsibility to the Kurds and it is incumbent upon the development of south-east Anatolia, so that the inequalities Government and indeed upon Members of the European that exist there are dealt with. Parliament to continue to be active in ensuring that Let me now move on to talk about other countries. In further discussions on Turkish EU membership are Iran, it is disturbing that although Kurdish people are used to the best advantage. very willing to work with the state, there is arbitrary arrest and in reality we face the situation of judicial John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): In killing. One such judicial killing has already taken place Birmingham, there are quite a few Sorani Kurds. Does and 12 other Kurds are on death row. In Syria, quite the hon. Gentleman agree that the lessons to learn in clearly there is much arbitrary detention and torture. terms of protecting all sorts of minorities—be it Turkmen As for the KRG, it is a story of great success. One of minorities within Kurdish areas or otherwise—are on the reasons for that is the visionary way that John the ways to avoid disputes developing into more volatile Major acted, to ensure that there was no bombing of disputes involving terrorism? northern Iraq after the first Gulf war. However, there are still many important issues and concerns. One is Mr. Pelling: I know that the hon. Gentleman has an where the writ of Kurdistan runs to. Does it include important Sorani Kurd community in his constituency. some areas around Mosul—not Mosul itself, but some In that regard, it is interesting to note how the Kurdistan villages around Mosul that in reality are more Kurdish Regional Government, or KRG, area has thrived, which than Iraqi? There is also the important issue of having a shows, as he said, the importance of combating the proper oil revenue-sharing agreement, so that there is temptation to go down the terrorist route. What is the best possible investment in the area. perhaps encouraging is that the Kurdish community As a country, we have a real interest in and concern has quite often acted in a very responsible way despite about the amount of trade that we can do in the area. having many reasons for feeling antagonised. To some extent, we are being overtaken by the Germans, Obviously we are going through one of those periodic the Scandinavians, the Italians and, of course, the Turks. bands of Kurdish political parties that reflect the rather In many ways, many organisations that invest in Kurdistan complicated army/democracy or non-secularist/secularist are actually partially owned by parts of the Turkish Ataturk traditions in Turkey. However, it is entirely army. We have a great interest in ensuring that we do unhelpful that we have ended up in a situation where our best. I am sure that good work is done by the the DTP—the Democratic Society party—is again facing embassy representation in Erbil, but there might be the prospect of being banned. advantage in having Department of Trade and Industry There are 3,000 Kurdish children in detention in representation there as well. Turkey and there has been a significant number of I have one particular interest. It is not a personal arrests of Kurdish politicians. For example, there has interest, but I have a long-standing friend with an been the arrest of Ahmet Turk, whose surname is itself interest in the provision of a direct air link between an irony, because it shows how someone’s own language London and Erbil. Currently, the journey is expensive or nomenclature cannot be used, and the arrest of Aysel and is normally made via Vienna. I understand that the Tujluk. That situation means that there is a clever UK is not happy to have direct flights back due to 223WH Kurdistan12 JANUARY 2010 Kurdistan 224WH security issues, but the issue could be resolved by making for business; the rest is only partially open, although I greater provision for air marshals on such trips and by hope that it will catch up with Kurdistan as soon as investing properly. possible. Kurdistan’s political, civic and business leaders There have been great controversies in the House have long appealed for such links. They appreciate the about the KRG’s approach to minorities. Early-day quality and expertise of British companies and institutions motions have been tabled about the treatment of Christians and wish to be our political and security ally. and the prospective expulsion of Christians and Assyrians As the hon. Gentleman said, we have fallen behind a from the KRG area. That might be due partly to the number of other European countries. There has been fact that there has been a great deal of confusion about no official UK ministerial trade mission. The trade property rights post-Saddam. I would be interested to missions that do go to the region have no support from know the Government’s view. To what extent do such UK Trade and Investment. The embassy office in issues exist within the KRG area? The Bishop of Croydon Kurdistan’s capital, Erbil, is understaffed compared has certainly spoken out on the persecution of Christians with other missions and marooned many miles from the there as an issue of concern. However, we must not let capital, although staff recognise the opportunities and that blind us to the fact that the KRG has been especially do their best to deal with the inadequacies of the successful, although we must be worried about further situation. political shootings as a result of the tensions arising Many people mentioned the problem of visas. Chambers from the elections this March. of commerce members whom we met told us that What are the Government doing to persuade Turkey business people from Kurdistan travel regularly—sometimes of the poor merits of banning the DTP? What pressure twice a month—to other parts of Europe, but that are they bringing through the European Union to ensure travel to Britain is difficult and that obtaining a visa that if Turkey is given entry, the rights of Kurds will be involves going to Amman. protected fully? Would we consider observing elections The hon. Gentleman discussed the issue of Christians properly, both in Kurdistan in Iraq and in Turkey, to in the region. As a practising Methodist and chair of ensure that Kurdish rights are protected fully? What can the all-party Methodist group, I focused in depth on the be done to promote our trade interests in Kurdistan and position of Christians in the Kurdistan region, as many encourage direct flights to Erbil? Finally and perhaps have fled from the rest of Iraq. I had detailed discussions most controversially, what does the Minister think would with the Bishop of Erbil and Mr. Sarkis Aghajan be the advantages of pushing for the release of Ocalan Mamendu, a former deputy Prime Minister who has led so that we could have a constitutional rather than the efforts to protect and promote the interests of terrorist-based settlement for Kurds within Turkey? Christians in the Kurdistan region. Both men told us that the Kurdistan regional government take an active 1.12 pm role in not only ensuring the rights of Christians but offering a safe haven to Christians fleeing persecution Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I from other regions of Iraq. I commend the region for its congratulate the hon. Member for Croydon, Central generosity in welcoming Christians and protecting their (Mr. Pelling) on securing this debate and thank him position. warmly for his generosity in allowing me to make a short contribution. I chair the all-party parliamentary Bob Spink: I have been to the region on a number of group on the Kurdistan region in Iraq, and, as he said, I occasions and seen for myself the efforts of the government have just returned from my first visit there. to discriminate in favour of Christians in order to show The year 2003 brought liberation for the people of their tolerance, such as digging water wells, rebuilding the Kurdistan region of Iraq, who made up the only villages and schools and allowing churches. There are Iraqi force that fought alongside British and American problems, but the government are making great strides forces. However, I believe that the UK has overlooked and efforts to tolerate Christianity. Kurdistan, the most secure and successful region of Iraq, undermining the whole country’s renewal and Meg Munn: Indeed, I would say support Christians, hindering British commercial and political objectives. not just tolerate them. Politicians and businesspeople whom I met were mystified I was impressed by the Parliament’s interest in developing and disappointed by the British Government’s behaviour democracy. With the help of Gary Kent, who supports since liberation. As the Prime Minister said to me, the all-party group, I gave two seminars to more than Kurdistan is the success of UK policy, yet the policy has half the MPs from the Kurdistan Parliament. They not involved equal treatment for all the people of Iraq. want to develop their understanding of democracy The UK has been reluctant to develop our relationship further. One main concern in Kurdistan is the need for a with the Kurdish region for fear of causing problems census. No accurate census has been taken for the best with the majority Arab population, and its continuing part of 50 years. It is important for all aspects of public improvement and success in the development of democracy policy planning, but it is also crucial to fairness in the and the security of the people is not being embraced as allocation of seats in the Iraqi Parliament. There is a model for the wider region. Instead, the British concern that the forthcoming census will not be done Government’s failure to update their understanding of fairly, so technical help from Britain is requested. the security situation in the region has damaged British Finally, on women’s rights, the leaders in Kurdistan interests. have taken a brave stance on problems common in the Trade must be a greater priority in Iraqi Kurdistan. middle east, such as so-called honour killings and female Companies investing there can later expand their operations circumcision. I acknowledge their leadership in such to the south. For many British and other companies, matters. I also met members of the women’s committee Kurdistan is now the only part of Iraq that is truly open of the Sulaymaniyah provincial council. They have 225WH Kurdistan12 JANUARY 2010 Kurdistan 226WH

[Meg Munn] deal of work it still has to do on human rights and a range of elements of its legal system to ensure that the made great advances in establishing the concerns of Turkey that joins the European Union can be a proper female council employees, challenging sexual harassment member of it. A line from a song in “Guys and Dolls” and creating a crèche. Their practical radicalism stands says: out in the middle east, where women’s interests are “Marry the man today and change his ways tomorrow.” normally way down the political agenda. I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend’s response to those issues. That cannot be done with a country that is applying to join the European Union. We must be sure that the changes have been introduced before it joins. 1.18 pm The Kurdish issue in Turkey is one of the key issues The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): I congratulate that must be resolved effectively before Turkey can the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling) accede to the Union. There are other issues such as wholeheartedly on securing this debate on a subject that Cyprus, but the Kurdish issue is key. We were concerned has not been debated for many years, except as a subsidiary when, on 11 December, the Turkish constitutional court to other debates on Turkey, Iraq or Iran. The issue is an closed the DTP, the Kurdish nationalist party. That is important one that probably needs more than half an why we supported strongly the European Union statement hour to amplify. that expressed concern. Things have moved on since I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for then. Ahmet Turk said that the 19 DTP MPs will return Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), who knows many of the to Parliament as BDP—Peace and Democracy party— ins and outs of the issues because she used to be in the members. We welcome Interior Minister Atalay’s remarks Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and was much about moving towards greater democracy and resolving respected when she was there. I know that she does a the issues. good job with her all-party parliamentary group, as We support the tackling of the terrorist threat posed does my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon by the PKK. However, it must be possible to distinguish Valley (Ann Clwyd). Between the two of them, they between nationalism that depends on the use of violence have managed to establish a better parliamentary and terrorism and believes in violent overthrow and the relationship than we have with many countries within legitimate political aspirations of individuals who want the European Union. I pay tribute to them because that to see a different political outlook. I am visiting Istanbul is of considerable benefit to the region and it informs this weekend and will have meetings with my opposite politics in this country. number, Mr. Bagis. I look forward to having discussions There are clear UK interests in the region. First, as with him on these issues and about Turkey’s eventual has been mentioned, many UK companies are active in accession to the European Union, which I am hopeful Iraq, Turkey and Iran and many companies would like about. to be more active. We would like to be able to provide The hon. Member for Croydon, Central and my hon. more assistance. The hon. Member for Croydon, Central Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley rightly raised made a good point about the need to beef-up our effort Iran. The human rights situation in Iran is horrific, not in terms of UK Trade and Investment and our presence. only for Kurds, but for many other people. Not only are We do not want all the business to be hoovered up by we wholeheartedly opposed to the use of the death the Germans or French. penalty, but the judicial process that leads to its use in Secondly, there is a clear UK interest because we Iran is completely flawed. The death penalty is still used want peace and stability in the region. The contribution for minors, despite Iran being signed up to international many young men and women in our armed forces made obligations that prohibit its use for under-18s. That in Iraq was important to this country’s stability and shows that even though Iran has signed up, it is not security. We want to ensure that we do not have to go complying, and that it has a casual disregard for human back to Iraq. Ensuring that there is stability and long-term rights. We have raised that point on at least 20 occasions, economic prosperity in the Kurdish region of Iraq is specifically in relation to the situation faced by Kurds therefore vital. in Iran. I will go through the countries that have large Kurdish On Iraq, the Kurdistan Regional Government is communities. The hon. Gentleman referred to Turkey. established in the constitution. Last March saw the He is right that we want to see Turkey as a member of successful visit of Massoud Barzani to this and other the European Union. We think that that would be good EU countries. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, for the UK. It would be good to have a secular, Muslim Heeley and my right hon. Friend the Member for country in the European Union and we do not believe Cynon Valley have had regular conversations with the that Europe should be a Christian club, as some people KRG. There has been significant progress on a great have called it. Incidentally, that forgets the history of number of issues. countries such as Spain, where Moorish influence is One issue on which there is progress to be made is significant in thought, culture and architecture. We also female genital mutilation. The German non-governmental believe that Turkey’s membership of the European Union organisation WADI—Association for Crisis Assistance will be vital because it is probably the Asian tiger on our and Development Co-operation—reckons between 75 and doorstep. It is also a country that helps to guarantee 85 per cent. of women are subjected to female genital our security against terrorism and international criminality, mutilation. We take that seriously and want to address and our energy security. It is therefore vital. the problem. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, We do not want Turkey to join the European Union Heeley mentioned the problem. The KRG has said that at any cost. It will not be able to do so unless it complies it wants to hold a conference soon on that issue and we fully with the acquis communautaire. There is a great are keen that that should happen swiftly. We stand 227WH Kurdistan 12 JANUARY 2010 228WH ready to assist in making it happen. There are deeply Local Radio entrenched cultural views that must be addressed; it is a long-term issue that obviously cannot be changed overnight. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley 1.30 pm raised the issue of visas. People in the Kurdistan region Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): of Iraq undoubtedly face significant difficulty in doing May I say at the outset how pleased I am to have business and travelling. I am certain that that harms the obtained the opportunity to initiate this debate and ability of people in the UK to do business. As I am sure how pleased I am to see that the Minister is here to reply she will acknowledge, there are significant security issues to it? over whether we will provide a full visa service in Iraq. My motivation in seeking the debate is a series of We are looking at whether we can bring about changes, concerns that have been put to me by a number of local but I cannot announce anything now. radio operators, particularly by the Shetland Islands The hon. Member for Croydon, Central raised the Broadcasting Company, which operates in Shetland. In issue of elections and whether we will be monitoring the Northern Isles, we have the benefit of two very them closely. He was right. We are of course delighted effective commercial local radio stations and two BBC that there have been successful rounds of elections in radio stations—Super Station Orkney, BBC Radio Orkney Iraq. Many people thought that that would never happen. and BBC Radio Shetland are the other three. I mention Indeed, some people in the UK thought it was inappropriate that because for communities with a strong sense of for us to try to bring about a democratic Iraq. I disagree identity, the existence and operation of local radio with those people. It has been a pleasure to see that the stations is, as is the case in many communities, an effort of British troops in Iraq has secured what have important part of our local ethos and identity. We generally been reckoned to be decent rounds of elections, should be careful before we make changes that may in although they have not by any means been perfect. some way operate to the disadvantage of those stations. The hon. Gentleman is right that we must ensure that Recently, there has been a trend for a diminution in the the conditions of elections are improved. We will monitor scope available to local newspapers, and it would be that closely through our embassy and consular staff in unfortunate if local radio stations were to go the same way. Baghdad, Erbil and Basra. We want to report back on I want to talk about the future of local radio in the that. I am sure that the all-party parliamentary group broadest sense, but I will be talking mostly about the will take a keen interest, as will the hon. Gentleman, my switchover to digital radio. As we are also discussing hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley and my the future of local radio, I should say that if local radio right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley. is to have a future, government at all levels will have to Abdullah Ocalan’s imprisonment in Turkey has been be a bit more careful about how they use it. When I was raised. I was not sure whether the hon. Member for preparing for the debate, SIBC brought to my attention Croydon, Central was calling for him to be released. the decision of the Scottish Government to let the radio That is a matter for the Turkish authorities. However, advertising for their Christmas drink-drive programme the state of Turkish prisons and the access available for through the big boys. As a consequence, SIBC—a very international visitors are of international concern. Although small, genuinely local, independent service, which is the in general the conditions in Turkish prisons are far from only commercial service that would carry the adverts in ideal, they have improved somewhat in recent years. We Shetland—was excluded from such coverage. That sort want to see further improvements, and I will raise that of sloppy thinking in government will have to change if with my counterpart when I am in Istanbul this weekend. local radio is to have a future.

Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a number of these small independent radio stations, such a Time FM in my own area, serve a niche market that is perhaps not served by their bigger neighbours—some of the BBC stations—and that they will need financial help to try to accommodate the new technology?

Mr. Carmichael: Yes, I do think that—although I do not necessarily agree with the point about financial help, which is a different matter altogether. The hon. Gentleman is right to mention the nature of local radio stations. I should point out that several hon. Members are present for this debate in Westminster Hall today, which reflects the fact that the subject excites a wide-range of interest. Had I realised how wide the interest was when I applied for the debate, I would have probably applied for a 90 rather than a 30-minute debate.

Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD) rose—

Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 229WH Local Radio12 JANUARY 2010 Local Radio 230WH

Mr. Carmichael: In a moment. I will accommodate as Mr. Carmichael: That takes the debate to a level many of my hon. Friends—indeed, hon. Members from beyond that which I had intended to discuss today. If all parties—as I possibly can. The number of briefings the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not go down that have come my way have borne testimony to the that line. If I am to deal with interventions and get wide-range of interest there is in the issue. I realise that beyond the fact that Ofcom has not included my the matter is still very much a work in progress for the constituency on its map, I will have to be a bit distant in Government, but the nature and range of the briefings dealing with the subject. that I have received suggest that there is still a lot of work to be done. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Will the hon. Gentleman If hon. Members will indulge me for a moment, a give way? briefing I have not read is the one that came my way from Ofcom. I had a quick flick through it and reached Mr. Carmichael: I must make a little bit of progress the back page, which, for the benefit of the record, has a first. I certainly do not pretend to be an expert on these map of most of the United Kingdom on it—in fact, the matters, but over the past few months, a number of map includes the Isle of Man, which is not even part of concerns about the Government’s plans for local radio, the United Kingdom. The only parts of the United as set out in the Digital Economy Bill, have been raised Kingdom that the map does not include are the islands with me. Given the importance of local and community of Orkney and Shetland. I have a suspicion that somebody stations to the surrounding communities that they serve, at Ofcom might pick up the Hansard report of this I want to raise those issues. debate and read it, so may I just place on the record that I should also place on the record my acknowledgement if Ofcom wants me to read its briefing, it will have to of the efforts of the hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) show my constituency on its maps? If Ofcom cannot be in relation to his early-day motion 436, of which I am bothered to do that, I will not be bothered to read its also a signatory. The main area of concern I want to briefing. raise is that the Government’s push into digital switchover Malcolm Bruce: My hon. Friend has initiated an is in danger of creating what appears to be an unlevel important debate. Local radio stations have grown up playing field for local stations. That is a consequence of and spread quite rapidly. If digitalisation leads to the how the market in this area operates and is a recognition closure of those stations, it would be a retrograde step. of the fact that although we talk very loosely about Would it also be true to say that the BBC has not done local radio, there are at least two national companies— all that it could have in relation to local radio in areas Bauer and Global—that are providing local radio in such as north-east Scotland? That area has the same different areas of the country. That is having its own population as Cornwall, which gets a 24/7 service, but it impact on the market. gets five and 10-minute opt-outs, which is a long way First, I want to raise with the Minister the issue of short of what the BBC should be providing. the 2015 switchover date. The concern raised with me is that that could leave more than 120 local commercial Mr. Carmichael: Indeed. I was a constituent of my stations and 200 community radio stations with an right hon. Friend for long enough to know the truth of uncertain future in analogue. Effectively, the switchover that. Certainly, the BBC is very patchy across the country. will have created a two-tier radio industry. The “Digital We are well served in the Northern Isles for the population Britain” White Paper proposed that such radio stations that we have, but as he says, the situation in north-east should form part of an ultra-local tier of radio. I Scotland is very different. understand that the decision to leave those stations on FM is driven by the limitations of the UK’s current Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): May digital radio network, which apparently lacks sufficient I establish one thing? Does the hon. Gentleman oppose capacity for every station in the area. the provisions in the Digital Economy Bill or is he in Among the concerns raised with me is that it is too favour of them? If he opposes the Bill, a possible expensive for local radio stations to go digital in that consequence of that is that radio stations such as West way. I hope the Minister will agree that it would be most Sound in my constituency will fail. unsatisfactory if local operators were forced out of Mr. Carmichael: No, I am not saying that. The purpose business because of rising costs. I know from my own of today’s debate is to start the discussion and ask a constituency experience that that is a very real danger—I wide range of questions that have not been properly am thinking of those costs associated with going digital. ventilated. If I may say so, hitherto this has been It is important for regions to keep a variety of local something of an anorak’s debate, but as the White operators that often have valuable local knowledge and Paper “Digital Britain” comes forward, it is clear that serve specific communities. I hope that the Minister will there will be a wider interest in the matter. I have a lot of agree with me that it is essential that one digital platform questions. I have said already that the matter is a work is not advantaged at the expense of all other alternatives. in progress for the Government, but clearly they have I would also be interested to hear the Minister’s not got all the answers right yet. comments on the concerns that, should radio go digital as planned, those stations left on FM will find it increasingly Mr. Letwin: My question flows from everything that difficult to retain listeners, and as a consequence advertisers, the hon. Gentleman has said. Does he agree that one of due to their absence from DAB-only radios and their the prime requirements is not just that Ofcom includes unavailability on alphabetised digital station lists. A his constituency on the map, but that we see greater combination of reduced listening and lack of digital regulatory flexibility, for example, in relation to the functionality could make those stations less attractive ability of local newspapers to enter the local radio to advertisers. It is, of course, extremely important that market? FM does not become irrelevant to radio, especially 231WH Local Radio12 JANUARY 2010 Local Radio 232WH considering that there is unlikely ever to be a DAB I would also be interested to hear the Minister’s multiplex in the entirety of my constituency, and indeed comments on the fact that three quarters of all radio in many other parts of the UK. listening is still to traditional FM/AM radio. I understand One proposed solution, on which I would like there that there are 120 million analogue radios in the UK, to be greater debate, is DAB plus. That has been proposed compared with 10 million DAB sets. The average purchase to allow all radio to go digital and is being implemented prise, I am told, of a DAB set is £85. The Minister said in other countries around the world. The representations in departmental questions last July that the Government that have been made to me have indicated that there are were two problems with DAB: first, that it has a gatekeeper, “working with industry to come up with sets that are consistently meaning that one cannot operate one’s own transmitter; priced at £20 or less.”—[Official Report, 20 July 2009; Vol. 496, c. 563.] and secondly, that it is on double the frequency of the FM band so that, as a consequence, relays are needed We still seem to be some way from that, so I would be for the same coverage, which will be particularly problematic interested to know what progress the Government are in hilly areas, such as Shetland. If Ofcom had shown making. Shetland on the map and shown any of its topography, I find the question of in-car listening compelling, as I readers could see that we have a fair number of hills generally listen to the radio while driving around. In-car there. listening is currently estimated to account for about 20 per cent. of all radio listening, yet DAB is currently As a parliamentarian who represents thousands of in fewer than 1 per cent. of all UK cars. That figure is constituents living in hilly areas, I would like some expected to rise to just 10 per cent. by 2015. I understand assurance from the Minister that people in such areas that the Government have recommended that all new will not be forgotten. I hope that he will understand my car radios sold in the UK by the end of 2013 should be concern at the comments made to me that current digital, but that is just two years before the proposed proposals will not provide a digital migration path for switchover date. What impact will that have on the 2015 stations serving remote rural areas. I am told that switchover date? AM/FM enjoys near-universal coverage of 99 per cent., but that DAB is significantly below that. I am aware It was recently suggested to me that DAB is 12 times that the Government have required that the DAB outreach less energy efficient in its usage than FM/AM. Have the should cover 90 per cent. of the whole population Government considered that, and what are they doing before the upgrade timetable will begin, but my suspicion to ensure that the energy efficiency of the switchover is that when it comes to looking at where the remaining costs will be taken properly into account? 10 per cent. will be, the communities of Orkney and The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Donohoe) Shetland will both feature in the list. asked me about the Digital Economy Bill, and I say to him genuinely that I do not oppose it. There is much in that Bill that is very positive, particularly clauses 34 and Mr.EdwardDavey(Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): I 35, and it seems to have brought with it a whole range of totally agree with what my hon. Friend has been saying, opportunities for local radio. It has been widely and as will those who run my local radio station, Radio warmly received by the industry. However, it is also fair Jackie, which is very popular. They also suggested that to say that a tremendous amount of detailed work still the Government must make it absolutely clear that FM needs to be done. I hope that the debate will allow the will not be switched off, that there should be a public Minister to at least start to explain how the Government information campaign so that the public can be reassured are addressing some of that important detail to ensure that it will not be switched off, and that the licensing that switchover will operate effectively for all parts of regime should be more sensible, including much longer the country. licences, so that those local radio stations that might have to remain on FM while the digital roll-out is sorted out have viable businesses. 1.47 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Mr. Carmichael: I am alarmed to admit, such is the Media and Sport (Mr. Siôn Simon): I congratulate the level of detail I have acquired in the past seven days, hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) that I am familiar with Radio Jackie, having received a on securing the debate and on his contribution—he said briefing from those who run it. My hon. Friend’s points he was not an expert, but I thought that his remarks are, for the most part, sound. As he illustrates, what we were well informed and insightful. I do not have much are discussing is very much a work in progress. Until, time to reply, so I will try to speak succinctly and will and unless, the concerns that he has outlined can be take interventions from Members who have not yet addressed satisfactorily, we should not rush head-first intervened. towards a switchover date for which there is no obviously Local radio is, without question, important to the compelling factor, technological or otherwise, other Government and to communities, playing an important than that it was felt that that would be the only way to role in binding together the social fabric. We take it very get things moving. seriously. Several of the briefings I have received in the past few days mentioned the possibility of being able to upgrade Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): On the point to DAB plus in future. Is that something the Government about the importance the Government place on local are looking at and, if so, why not upgrade to DAB plus radio, it seems that local radio stations, and certainly from the beginning, rather than trying to bolt it on a those in my constituency, Pirate FM and Atlantic FM, later stage? Where is the Government’s thinking in do not necessarily feel that they have had the opportunity relation to DAB plus. to get their points across at an early stage. That is why 233WH Local Radio12 JANUARY 2010 Local Radio 234WH

[Dan Rogerson] Most important in the context of today’s debate, there will be a tier of local and community radio they are now contacting local Members to look at some stations with the specific focus of informing and reflecting of the issues when the Digital Economy Bill is debated the communities they serve. They will be distinct from on the Floor of the House. What sort of consultations the national and regional tiers because of the very local are taking place with local radio stations? nature of their content and they will benefit from less competition for local advertising funding. Mr. Simon: The hon. Gentleman is quite right; there is undoubtedly some concern in the industry. There has Mr. Letwin: People in my constituency and elsewhere been a bit of a campaign, led by UTV. I recently met at who depend on radios will not be able to get local radio RadioCentre representatives of many local commercial if it is purely digitised. local radio stations from across the country, and some of them will have been those he mentioned from his Mr. Simon: Local radio will not be purely digitised. constituency. There was extensive consultation when That tier will stay on FM for the foreseeable future, but the Bill was drafted, so we do take it seriously. During it will not be an FM ghetto; it will be an accessible FM, my remarks I hope to allay some of the fears, which as I shall explain. may have emerged through misunderstanding. Mr. Donohoe: Given the time constraints, will the Bob Spink: There are genuine fears that the Bill will Minister agree to meet Members who are interested in lead to a two-tier system, so would the Minister address the subject? a couple of those fears? Will clause 34 genuinely lead to deregulation for smaller local radio? Will digital be Mr. Simon: Yes, I am happy to meet Members who affordable for smaller local radio, and how can we are interested. I have another meeting scheduled with achieve that? Will smaller local radio get more access to local radio operators from all over the country, which higher-quality FM while it is still around? will be under the same auspices as my recent meeting with them. Mr. Simon: I am pretty confident that I shall address I am not sure whether I have enough time to continue. all those points in my brief remarks. Let me make some I do, so let me be clear: we see a digital future for all progress before I take any more questions. radio eventually. However, with more than 50 BBC Digital switchover provides new opportunities and services, nearly 350 commercial stations, 200 licensed increases functionality. It is an essential part of securing community stations, the current infrastructure will not the long-term future. The total revenue of the commercial support a move to digital for everybody. For small sector has fallen from £750 million in 2000 to £560 million commercial and community stations, the coverage area now. At the same time, transmission costs have gone up, and the cost of carriage of a digital multiplex are too with stations now bearing the cost of carriage on FM, great. That is one reason why, for the time being, we DAB, online and digital TV. A market facing such believe that those stations are best served by continuing rising costs and falling revenue is unsustainable and to broadcast on FM. puts the health of the entire sector under threat. Malcolm Bruce rose— Although the path to digital may not be easy, we are convinced that it is the only route for securing the Mr. Simon: I am nearly coming to my point, but I long-term future of radio, and that is a view shared by give way to the right hon. Gentleman. the vast majority of the sector, notwithstanding some of the reservations raised by hon. Members. Therefore, rather than a catalyst for decline, the changes set out in Malcolm Bruce: Some of the small stations have the Digital Economy Bill are essential to secure the already invested in being on digital. Are they not in survival of local radio. danger of being kicked off to FM having made that investment, and would that be a fair outcome? For the first time, we will have three distinct tiers. First, there will be a tier of national services, both Mr. Simon: No, small stations are not in such danger. commercial and BBC, with a wide range of content. It Stations that are already on digital are not in danger of will allow the commercial sector to compete more effectively being kicked off digital, but they are suffering the extra with the BBC, employ high-profile presenters and attract cost of running on two platforms. That is one of the high value national advertising and sponsorship. reasons why we need an orderly, managed and reasonably Secondly, a regional or large local tier, again comprising speedy transition to an affordable single platform for as commercial and BBC services, will provide a wide range many people as can afford to be on it. of programmes, including regional news, traffic and The idea of stations on more than one platform is not travel. The tier will increase the coverage size and potential new, which moves us to a key point that has not been revenue of many large local stations, which in turn will widely understood—it is really important. Listeners increase the opportunity for linked advertising between have for decades moved between FM and medium wave, regions so that regional commercial operators can benefit and historically also to long wave. The current generation from quasi-national advertising. of DAB sets has tended to make that move a rather The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland mentioned sharp distinction, which has led to the fear that FM will the issue of advertising being badly commissioned by end up being a second-class ghetto tier. To avoid that, the Scottish Government, which I understand. None we are committed to ensuring the implementation of a the less, the benefits of linked advertising for regional combined station guide, which is similar to an electronic radio can be very great if commissioned sensitively. programme guide, that will allow listeners to access all 235WH Local Radio12 JANUARY 2010 Local Radio 236WH stations by name, irrespective of the platform. Future on the criteria for listenership and coverage being satisfied. sets will simply have a list of station names. The listener We think it can be done by 2015, and that it is important will not distinguish between FM and digital stations, to set a challenging target. but will simply select the station by name. We are The issue of £20 sets was raised. There are already already working with the industry on that system and some £30 sets. We have five years to go until 2015, so we encouraging its development and introduction as quickly remain confident that we will have £20 sets by then. as possible. That is a crucial difference that has not been widely promulgated or understood. It means that people Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): I am interested can stay on FM and the new sets can service the same to hear what my hon. Friend says about the 2015 date. market. Can I take it from what he said this morning that 2015 is Only 5 per cent. of the digital radio receivers currently an aspiration to encourage the industry to move towards on sale cannot receive FM. It is our intention that all digital—to put their house in order and get things digital receivers should be able to receive FM as well as ready? However, if the coverage is not there in places complying with the World DMB profile, which will such as the constituencies of the hon. Member for ensure that they can support other technologies to Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) and the right accommodate future changes. That crucial distinction hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) where there has not been widely understood. When I explained it to are a lot of hills, will the Government will look at the people in the industry, it made a big difference. date again? That date is not already fixed. The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland asked Mr. Simon: As I said, we believe it is an achievable whether we could upgrade to DAB-plus from the beginning. date. If more than 50 per cent. of listeners are not on I understand why he says that, but we are not right at digital by then, and if coverage is not similar to the beginning. There are 10 million DAB sets out there FM—98.5 per cent.—it will not happen on that date. If for which people have laid out large amounts of money. for any other unforeseen reason, we are not, as a nation, The BBC completed a study into the issue last year, and in good shape to do it by then, we will not do it. We will concluded that, on balance, it was not worth writing off not switch over at an inappropriate time, but we believe that technology because of the impact on the 10 million that it can and should be done in 2015. people who had bought DAB sets. We have said that all new technology should be DAB-plus and future compatible As time ticks on, let me say that a relatively small and so that further change is future-proofed and DAB-plus cheap piece of hardware will be available to convert is not excluded. in-car sets to something that works in the future as well as the present. As for the switchover date of 2015, the hon. Gentleman asked whether it was the only way we would get things 2pm moving. The Government believe that 2015 is an achievable Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order date. The actual date that switchover happens will depend No. 10(11)).

17WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JANUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

Over lunch, Ministers discussed the outcome of the Written Ministerial Copenhagen climate change conference. The outcome had not been what was hoped for, but progress was Statements made, particularly on a temperature goal, financing and monitoring, reporting and verification; and I urged colleagues to maintain ambition and work towards a Tuesday 12 January 2010 legally binding text. Environment Ministers will return to the issue at their informal meeting in Seville on 15-17 January. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT The council held a policy debate on the proposed biocides regulation, during which the majority of member Housing Ombudsman Service states supported the option of Community authorisation for certain biocides. I supported Community authorisation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for as a means of streamlining the system, and asked for Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): I careful definition of “low-risk” products; decisions on have deposited today, in the Library of the House, the use of certain biocides would still be needed in a copy of the annual report and accounts of the specific cases. Housing Ombudsman Service (HOS) for the financial Under any other business, I raised the timber due year 2008-2009. diligence regulation, which is being handled by the The HOS is an executive non-departmental public Agriculture and Fisheries Council. I argued for the body sponsored by the Department for Communities inclusion of a prohibition on the first placing of illegal and Local Government to investigate complaints from timber on the Community market, and urged Environment Registered Social Landlord (RSL–a housing association Ministers to support strengthening the regulation in registered with the Tenant Services Authority) tenants this way as it progresses through the legislative process. and prospective tenants who remain dissatisfied having On biomass sustainability criteria, the UK supported completed the RSL’s own complaints procedure. The the call from Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg scheme is an independent complaints resolution mechanism for mandatory sustainability criteria. the presidency and is administered by a private, not for profit company, gave a progress report on the Commission proposal on the Independent Housing Ombudsman Limited (IHOL). CO2 emissions from vans. Spain introduced the work programme for its presidency. The report sets out its main activities and performance during the year, detailing the financial status of the service and providing casework statistics covering the last 12 months. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE The statistics reveal that in 2008-09 HOS accepted over 3,800 new complaints for investigation, an increase Foreign Compensation Commission of 21 per cent. over the previous year. In addition to complaints, HOS also responded to over 2,800 enquiries. Greater efficiency in investigations has enabled HOS to The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): Today I will meet or exceed performance targets and to invest more lay before Parliament the annual report of the Foreign resources in improving customer care and dispute resolution Compensation Commission for 2008-09. This is the in the early stages of the complaints process. fifty-fourth such report. Copies will be placed in the Library of the House and the Vote Office. A copy will also be available on the ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Foreign Compensation Commission’s website at: http:// foi.fco.gov.uk/en/access-information/Ndpbs/fcc. The report provides an account of the commission’s Environment Council activities during the financial year 2008-09. The commission was not engaged in any active distribution programmes The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and during the period in question and operates on a care Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): I represented the UK at the and maintenance basis. Environment Council in Brussels on 22 December. The council adopted conclusions on international biodiversity, focusing on EU priorities for forthcoming JUSTICE global discussions on the post-2010 biodiversity framework, which will lead to a new global target on biodiversity. Civil Monetary Penalties (Response to Consultation) Conclusions on the combination effects of chemicals, which highlighted the need for further work to assess the combination effects of individual chemicals, were The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael also agreed. Wills): I am publishing today the Government’s response The council adopted conclusions on the marine to the consultation paper “Civil Monetary Penalties: environment and the Baltic Sea strategy. These include Setting the maximum penalty”. an invitation to the Commission to develop legislative The purpose of this consultation was to seek views proposals to phase out and/or ban phosphates in detergents, on the Government’s proposal for the maximum civil starting with phosphates in laundry detergents for domestic monetary penalty that may be imposed by the Information use and, based on the evidence from a further impact Commissioner for serious contraventions of the data assessment, beyond that. protection principles. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JANUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

The consultation was launched on 9 November 2009 A guiding principle has been to establish the minimum and closed on 21 December. At the same time, the level of effective regulation to enable pension reform to Information Commissioner’s office consulted on its draft succeed without placing unnecessary burdens on employers guidance which explains the circumstances in which the or the pensions industry. We listened to stakeholders Information Commissioner would consider it appropriate and considered their responses to our consultations. We to issue a monetary penalty notice, and how he will have made a number of changes, which we hope will be determine the amount of a monetary penalty. well received. These increase flexibility and reduce some Of the 52 responses to the Government’s consultation of the process burdens without compromising our headline paper, 27 agreed that £500,000 was the correct maximum policy intentions or undermining protection for individuals. level, eight thought it should be higher, nine thought The regulations include the changes to the there should be a lower level and eight did not respond implementation plan, announced in the pre-Budget report, directly to the question but commented on other aspects which are designed to help small and start-up businesses of civil monetary penalties. The results show that a adjust to the new arrangements for workplace pension majority of respondents supported the Government’s saving. Auto-enrolment will begin as planned in October proposal to set the maximum penalty at £500,000. 2012 and the reforms will be fully implemented by Today I have laid regulations before Parliament to October 2017. provide the necessary legal framework to bring the Also published today is the NEST order and the Information Commissioner’s power to serve a monetary order to establish NEST Corporation and, as a consequence, penalty notice into force. I am making one statutory the order that will wind up the Personal Accounts instrument, subject to negative resolution, which sets Delivery Authority on 5 July 2010. the maximum penalty at £500,000 and the information We are currently recruiting the chair and members that must be included in a notice of intent and a for NEST Corporation. We will establish the corporation monetary penalty notice. I have also laid another order this summer, as only the trustee can make certain key in draft, which, if approved by Parliament, will outline decisions necessary to complete the implementation of other matters in relation to civil monetary penalties, the scheme, for example, agreeing the statement of such as provisions for the cancellation and variation of investment principles. As the policy and design of the notices, enforcement and appeals. This will be subject to scheme is established in regulations, we concluded PADA affirmative resolution and will be debated in due course. can be wound up at the same time, with the task of Copies of the response to the consultation will be completing the operational implementation and the placed in the Libraries of both Houses and on the subsequent running of the scheme passed on to NEST Ministry of Justice website at: www.justice.gov.uk. Copies Corporation. are also available in the Vote Office and the Printed Regulations published today: Paper Office. The Occupational and Personal Pension Schemes (Automatic Enrolment) Regulations 2010 These set out the practical arrangements employers WORK AND PENSIONS must make to automatically enrol eligible jobholders into a pension scheme, including the arrangements an Workplace Pension Reform individual must make if they wish to opt out of pension saving and the minimum quality standards certain schemes must reach in order to be used by employers to The Minister for Pensions and the Ageing Society automatically enrol jobholders. (Angela Eagle): Today is a very important milestone for http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/draft/ the delivery of workplace pension reform, including the ukdsi_9780111490655_en_1 setting up of NEST (National Employment Savings The Employers’ Duties (Implementation) Regulations 2010 Trust), previously known as personal accounts. We are These set out the arrangements for implementing the publishing the: new employer duties by applying the duties to employers Government’s response to the workplace pension reform over a period of time according to the employers’ “Completing the Picture” consultation; description. Regulations that frame automatic enrolment, scheme quality, http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100004_en_1 compliance and the other elements that combine to deliver The Employers’ Duties (Registration and Compliance) workplace pension reform; Regulations 2010 Regulations for NEST and establishing the corporation that will run the scheme, as well as winding up PADA in July 2010; These enable the pensions regulator to monitor and and enforce compliance with the employer duties and safeguards. Associated impact assessment. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100005_en_1 These reforms deliver the final part of the package The Public Interest Disclosure (Prescribed Persons) proposed by the independent Pensions Commission, (Amendment) Order 2010 and reflect a significant delivery milestone based on a This amends an existing order to ensure that any broad consensus. detriment or dismissal a worker suffers as a result of We have worked closely with stakeholders, employers, making a complaint to the pensions regulator is unlawful. industry, and others to get here, and the changes created http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100007_en_1 by these regulations will allow millions of workers to The Pensions Act 2008 (Commencement No.5) Order 2010 save for a pension with a new mandatory minimum contribution from their employer, many for the first Establishes the NEST Corporation from 5 July 2010. time. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100010_en_1 21WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JANUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

The NEST Corporation Naming and Financial Year ensure the scheme complements those schemes already Order 2010 in the existing pensions market. Sets out the name of the trustee corporation which will http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100006_en_1 run NEST. The Personal Accounts Delivery Authority Winding Up Sets the financial year of the corporation in line with Order 2010 Government’s financial year–1 April to 31 March. Winds up the Personal Accounts Delivery Authority http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100003_en_1 from 5 July 2010. Transfers PADA’s property, rights and The NEST Order 2010 liabilities in the main to the NEST Corporation. Sets up the framework for NEST, a simple, low cost http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/draft/ scheme which employers can use to discharge their new ukdsi_9780111490501_en_1 duty. Documents published today: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/draft/ Available at: www.dwp.gov.uk/workplace-pension-reforms ukdsi_9780111490495_en_1 Workplace pension reform–completing the picture. The NEST (Consequential Provisions) Order 2010 and Government response to the consultation The Application of Pension Legislation to the NEST This covers: Corporation Regulations 2010 arrangements for implementing the reforms; Makes some minor modifications to existing pension elements of the employer duty requirements not covered in the legislation in relation to the scheme through the NEST consultation of March 2009; consequential provisions order and the application of the quality requirements for defined benefit (DB) and hybrid pension legislation to the NEST Corporation regulations, schemes, and transitional arrangements during implementation; for instance, that the scheme will not have member- powers to enforce compliance with the requirements on employers. nominated trustees, as the members’ panel will represent Workplace pension reform regulations–impact assessment the views of scheme members. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100009_en_1 The impact assessment builds on the analysis presented in the regulatory impact assessments that accompanied http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100008_en_1 the Pensions Bill 2007 and draft regulations consultation The Transfer Values (Disapplication) Regulations 2010 in 2009. It presents the overall impact of the reform on Bans transfers of cash equivalent sums built up under employers, individuals, the pensions industry and the other pension arrangements into and out of NEST, to Government.

13P Petitions12 JANUARY 2010 Petitions 14P

Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly Petitions implemented, learning from current best practice, in all local authorities in England. Tuesday 12 January 2010 And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P000704]

PRESENTED PETITIONS Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Petitions presented to the House on Monday 11 January Sheltered Housing (Sidcup) but not read on the Floor The Petition of persons resident in the Old Bexley and Sidcup parliamentary constituency, Badman Report (Sheffield, Heeley) The Petition of persons resident in the Sheffield, Heeley Declares that they are concerned for the future of parliamentary constituency, Heron Court, a sheltered housing scheme in Sidcup, with provision for elderly residents and operated by Declares that they are concerned about the London and Quadrant Housing Trust to which nominations recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests are made by the London Borough of Bexley. closer monitoring of home educators, including a The Petitioners therefore request that the House of compulsory annual registration scheme and right of Commons urges the Secretary of State responsible for access to people’s homes for local authority officials; Local Government to ensure that their local authority further declares that the Petitioners believe the considers the six hundred persons upon their sheltered recommendations are based on a review that was extremely accommodation waiting list whilst empty places are rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, retained in appropriate schemes within the Borough. failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing And the Petitioners remain, etc. legislative framework. [P000705] The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, OBSERVATIONS Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of children educated at home in the absence of a thorough independent COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT inquiry into the condition and future of elective home education in England; but instead to take the steps Council Housing (Portsmouth) necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home The Humble Petition of Portsmouth City council Tenants, Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly and others, implemented, learning from current best practice, in all local authorities in England. Sheweth that the Government have taken £8.7 million including £4.6 million this financial year from the rents And the Petitioners remain, etc. of Portsmouth City council tenants for general Government [P000703] expenditure; and declares that this will continue for the next 30 years at an estimated cost of £500 million, Badman Report (Runnymede and Weybridge) Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House will urge the Government to revise this trend so The Petition of persons resident in the Runnymede and that the rent from Portsmouth City council tenants is Weybridge parliamentary constituency, spent directly for their benefit, Declares that they are concerned about the And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests pray, &c.—[Presented by Mr. Mike Hancock, Official closer monitoring of home educators, including a Report, 2 March 2009; Vol. 488, c. 700 .] compulsory annual registration scheme and right of access to people’s homes for local authority officials; [P000320] further declares that the Petitioners believe the Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities recommendations are based on a review that was extremely and Local Government: rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, Under the current Housing Revenue Account (HRA) failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently subsidy system, the Local Authority’s assumed housing robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing income is compared with the assumed cost of managing legislative framework. and maintaining its housing stock. Where the income is The Petitioners therefore request that the House of greater than the cost, the difference is recycled by the Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, Housing Revenue Account Subsidy system to support Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to those Authorities whose income is not enough to meet withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for their costs. tighter registration and monitoring of children educated When the subsidy provided by those Authorities that at home in the absence of a thorough independent contribute to the system has not been enough to provide inquiry into the condition and future of elective home the subsidy needed by the Authorities with a shortfall, education in England; but instead to take the steps the Government have provided the additional funding necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home needed to balance the system. When the national system 15P Petitions12 JANUARY 2010 Petitions 16P has generated a surplus, that surplus has been taken Healey), set out proposals for a clearer, more transparent into account in setting the level of spending on public system that puts councils in control and gives them sector housing provision. flexibility to respond to the needs of their tenants. He The Department for Communities and Local made clear that he proposed to dismantle the current Government and Her Majesty’s Treasury have undertaken HRA subsidy system and give local government real a review of the system for financing council housing. control over a major area of spending and decision-making. This involved extensive consultation with a wide range The Government’s consultation on these proposals of organisations and individuals representing all of closed at the end of October. Work is now going ahead those with an interest in how council housing finance with local government and with experts and practitioners works. in the professional bodies such as the Chartered Institute The Review made clear that many people are not of Public Finance and Accountancy ( CIPFA), to work content with the methodology, by which assumed rental through the financial, accounting, technical and practical surpluses are re-distributed, with some Authorities aspects of a local authority self-financing system. contributing to the costs of others with assumed deficits.. Communities and Local Government aim to go back to In July, the Minister for Housing and Planning, my the local government sector with a detailed offer on right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (John self-financing early next year. 819W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 820W

These reports contain a breakdown of the Commission’s Written Answers to operating costs by category of expenditure. The categories for each year which might be said to relate to travel, Questions public relations or publications are listed as follows.

£ Tuesday 12 January 2010 1999-2000 Hospitality, travel and subsistence 25,434 Advertising and publicity 78,819 NORTHERN IRELAND Conferences and seminars n/a Departmental Information Officers Printing, postage and stationery 20,240 2000-01 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Hospitality, travel and subsistence 19,843 Northern Ireland how many (a) press officers and (b) Advertising and publicity 42,701 communications staff were employed by his Conferences and seminars n/a Department (i) in each of the last five years and (ii) on Printing, postage and stationery 29,294 the latest date for which figures are available; and what 2001-02 the cost of employing these staff was in each such year. Hospitality, travel and subsistence 12,954 [309927] Advertising and publicity 27,540 Conferences and seminars 775 Mr. Woodward: All communication duties within my Printing, postage and stationery 31,600 Department are conducted by press officers. The number 2002-03 and costs are detailed in the following table. Hospitality, travel and subsistence 11,637 Advertising and publicity 32,059 Press officers Cost (£) Conferences and seminars 2,184 2009-08 10 579,343.36 Printing, postage and stationery 27,728 2008-07 10 532,022.10 2003-04 2007-06 14 686,416.62 Hospitality, travel and subsistence 21,056 2006-05 12 596,888.06 Advertising and publicity 48,178 2005-04 14 540,123.79 Conferences and seminars 20,449 Printing, postage and stationery 26,563 Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission 2004-05 Hospitality, travel and subsistence 29,402 Mr. Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Advertising and publicity 35,459 Northern Ireland what recent assessment he has made Conferences and seminars 3,567 of the rules governing the holding of other jobs by (a) Printing, postage and stationery 26,999 the Chairman and (b) members of the Northern 2005-06 Ireland Human Rights Commission. [308990] Travel, subsistence and hospitality 47,729 Advertising, publicity and publications 73,250 Paul Goggins: The terms and conditions of the Chief Conferences and seminars n/a Commissioner and other Commissioners of the Northern Printing, postage and stationery 40,013 Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC) require 2006-07 them to inform the Secretary of State and the NIHRC’s chief executive in advance of any appointments that Travel, subsistence and hospitality 69,984 may impinge on their duties as Commissioners and to Advertising, publicity and publications 63,898 declare any conflicts of interest. The NIHRC code of Conferences and seminars 23,041 practice also contains further guidance for Commissioners. Printing, postage and stationery 34,888 This can be found at: 2007-08 www.nihrc.org/dms/data/NIHRC/attachments/dd/files/41/ Travel, subsistence and hospitality 60,470 Code_of_PracticeforCommissioners_1107.pdf Advertising, publicity and publications 69,325 Conferences and seminars 41,423 Mr. Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Printing, postage and stationery 35,396 Northern Ireland how much has been spent by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC) on (a) travel, (b) public relations and (c) SCOTLAND publications in each year since the NIHRC’s inception. Departmental Surveys [309074] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Woodward: The annual reports and financial Scotland if he will place in the Library a copy of the accounts of the Northern Ireland Human Rights results of his Department’s most recent staff survey; Commission (with the exception of their first two years’ which organisation carried out the survey; and what financial accounts, copies of which have been placed in the cost of the survey was. [309837] the Library of the House) are available publicly on the Commission’s website at: Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office’s most recent http://www.nihrc.org/index.php?page=subresources& category_ people survey was delivered as part of the Ministry of id=27&from=0&resources_id=56&search_content=&Itemid=61 Justice people survey, and as such its costs was borne 821W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 822W by, and not split out from, those of the Ministry of Tasks are advertised in the Defence Contracts Bulletin Justice. The Ministry of Justice’s share of ORC and the Official Journal of the European Union, thus International’s costs for providing the 2009 survey was permitting aircraft brokers and airline operators from £192,000. By procuring a single supplier for staff surveys the UK and other nations to bid for contracts. Contracts in 2009-10 the civil service has saved 35 per cent. on the will be awarded on the grounds of technical ability to total cost of staff surveys in 2008-09. The results of the achieve the task, safety and security standards, and by 2009 survey are expected at the end of January 2010 offering best value for money. and these will be published on our website. Following publication we will place a copy of the results in the Armed Forces: Families Library. A copy of the last Scotland Office staff survey published Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence in 2007 is available from the Library of the House. what steps he plans to take to consult service families’ organisations on the development of his forthcoming Water Green Paper and Defence Review. [310058] Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Service personnel issues are an Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for important theme in the Green Paper. In December Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the 2009, we briefed service and ex-service organisations on Scottish Executive on the activities in Scotland of the themes of the Green Paper at one of the Department’s water companies providing services in England. regular meetings with them. Once the Green Paper has [310074] been published there will be further opportunities for service families’ organisations to comment on it. Ann McKechin: My right hon. Friend and I have had no such discussions. The Defence Review will be conducted in a new Parliament, and it is too early to say precisely how it will be conducted. This includes decisions about the forms of engagement that will take place during its DEFENCE development. Armed Forces: Housing Air Force: Military Bases Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the 50 most expensive substitute (a) Defence what his plans are for the future of Royal Air service family and (b) single living accommodation Force bases in North Yorkshire; and if he will make a properties rented out in the last 12 months were. statement. [310073] [310252] Bill Rammell: RAF Linton-on-Ouse, RAF Church Mr. Kevan Jones: Substitute service family Fenton and RAF Topcliffe are sites that currently provide accommodation (SSFA) and substitute service single UK military flying training. The stations are under accommodation (SSSA) properties may be rented to review as part of the UK Military Flying Training accommodate service families and single serving personnel System (MFTS) procurement project which will cater respectively when no suitable Ministry of Defence for the future flying training needs of the armed forces. accommodation is unavailable close or at the duty No decisions have yet been taken. station. Substitute accommodation is only used as a last RAF Leeming will continue to be a core RAF site, resort and often more than one service person may with 90 Signals unit providing the RAF communications occupy an SSSA property. hub and other units providing support to operations. The 50 most expensive SSSA properties rented during The number and operation of military airfields is 2009 were as follows: under constant review to ensure that the best use is made of the Defence Estate for our armed forces. Location Monthly rent (£) Number of occupants

Armed Forces: Aviation London SW1P 3,275.00 3 London SW1P 3,240.00 3 Slough 3,060.75 5 Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State London SW1P 3,030.00 1 for Defence what his Department’s policy is on the London SW1V 2,814.80 3 procurement of commercial airline services for the London N1 2,550.00 3 movement of members of the UK armed forces; Salisbury 2,525.00 4 whether his Department’s policy is only to procure the London SE1 2,513.33 2 services of UK-owned and operated commercial London SW6 2,408.33 3 airlines for such purposes; and if he will make a London SW1P 2,408.33 2 statement. [309609] Saffron Walden 2,402.50 4 London SW1P 2,384.20 2 Mr. Quentin Davies: The procurement of commercial London SW10 2,383.33 1 airline services for the movement of members of the London SW17 2,371.15 3 UK armed forces is governed by the Public Procurement London SW1P 2,340.00 2 Requirement and MOD Standard Procurement Policy. London SE1 2,331.80 3 Tasks requiring commercial airline services are not restricted London SW1P 2,325.00 3 to UK-owned and operated commercial airlines. 823W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 824W

Location Monthly rent (£) Number of occupants Location Monthly rent (£)

London SW1P 2,301.25 2 London SW15 3,126.00 Nottingham 2,300.00 5 Sevenoaks 3,050.75 London SW6 2,280.25 2 London SW11 3,033.33 London SW1P 2,275.00 2 London SW15 3,025.25 London SW8 2,272.00 2 London W4 3,025.00 London NW5 2,253.33 1 Princes Risborough 3,000.00 London SW1P 2,214.75 2 Great Missenden 3,000.00 London SE1 2,209.35 2 Camberley 3,000.00 London E14 2,202.20 2 Great Missenden 3,000.00 Bordon 2,200.00 4 Romsey 3,000.00 London SW11 2,200.00 2 London SW15 3,000.00 London SWIP 2,200.00 2 Northwood 3,000.00 Bordon 2,200.00 4 Great Missenden 2,950.00 London SW1P 2,195.50 2 Kingston Upon Thames 2,925.00 London SE1 2,192.33 2 Burford 2,920.00 London SWIV 2,192.00 2 Epsom 2,920.00 London E14 2,191.66 2 Aylesbury 2,900.00 London W8 2,191.66 1 Northwood 2,900.00 London SE1 2,188.33 1 London SE10 2,900.00 London SW8 2,185.05 2 High Wycombe 2,850.00 London SW1P 2,184.00 2 Epsom 2,850.00 London SW1P 2,182.85 2 London SW15 2,839.00 London SWIV 2,181.55 2 London SW6 2,825.00 London SWIV 2,178.50 2 Windsor 2,800.00 London SW1P 2,177.80 2 London SW9 2,175.65 2 Armed Forces: Uniforms London SW1P 2,173.60 2 London SW11 2,171.60 2 Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for London SW1P 2,170.00 2 Defence what funding has been allocated for the London SW1P 2,169.45 2 development of the taped seam clothing specification London SW1P 2,169.45 2 for waterproof clothing as part of his Department’s London SW8 2,162.20 2 personal equipment and common operational clothing London SW11 2,162.00 2 contract to date. [309616]

The 50 most expensive SSFA properties rented during Mr. Quentin Davies: £5,000 has been spent from the 2009 were as follows: Personal Equipment and Common Operational Clothing (PECOC) budget on procuring different types of waterproof Location Monthly rent (£) clothing for testing. London SW3 6,933.33 Departmental Land London W2 6,000.00 Northwood 4,700.00 Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Windsor 4,500.00 Defence what the cost of maintaining land owned by Gerrards Cross 4,280.00 his Department was in each of the last five years; and London SW19 4,117.00 what the monetary value of such land was at the latest Northwood 4,038.00 date for which figures are available. [310253] London W6 3,900.00 London SW13 3,725.00 Mr. Kevan Jones: As at 31 March 2009, the Department London SW6 3,708.33 owned land throughout the world valued at £7.7 billion. New Malden 3,700.00 It is not possible to separate the amount spent on London SW15 3,683.33 maintaining land from other elements of estate expenditure London W4 3,575.00 without incurring disproportionate cost. London SW4 3,575.00 London SE10 3,525.00 USA: Military Aircraft Great Missenden 3,500.00 Warminster 3,500.00 Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Windsor 3,500.00 Defence what discussions have taken place since 2006 London NW3 3,383.33 between his Department and the United States London E14 3,298.75 Department of Defense on the developmental progress Richmond 3,284.45 of the electro-magnetic aircraft launch system. [309663] London SW6 3,228.33 Banstead 3,225.00 Mr. Quentin Davies: The UK and the US are in London W4 3,163.33 regular contact on aircraft carrier issues, including the Richmond 3,152.05 Electro-Magnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS). London W4 3,141.66 Since 2006 there have been a number of meetings and 825W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 826W information exchanges between the MOD’s Capital consultation with users was undertaken on the closure Ships project team and the US Department of Defence’s of Bellamy’s bar; and whether the House of Commons PEO Carriers Team which have covered progress on the Commission has plans to provide an alternative venue EMALS project. The most recent engagement on EMALS for Bellamy’s bar. [309750] between these teams was in November 2009. Nick Harvey: Following the House of Commons Commission’s decision that a nursery is to be provided WALES on the parliamentary estate in the space currently occupied by Bellamy’s Bar, I understand that (a) the Administration Boilers: Government Assistance Committee will be consulted, as the details are worked up, on matters such as the service level requirements Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales and contractual arrangements for the provision of nursery if he will publish the correspondence his Department services and the timetable for conversion of the has had with the Treasury on whether the boiler accommodation. On (b), users of the bar are able scrappage scheme should apply in Wales. [310507] to make use of the existing provision elsewhere on the Mr. Hain: I have had discussions on the 2009 pre-Budget estate and there are no plans to provide an alternative report and its implications for Wales. However I have venue. had no written correspondence with the Treasury on this specific issue. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Wales will receive consequentials as a consequence of the England-only Boiler Scrappage scheme. It is a matter Farmers: Income for the Welsh Assembly Government to decide how to Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for allocate this additional funding. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what programmes his Department funds to assist farmers to diversify into tourism; and how much funding has been INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT allocated under each such programme in 2009-10. ACP Countries: EU Overseas Trade [310363] Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: Under the Rural Development International Development whether he plans to review Programme for England an indicative budget of the effectiveness of the Sugar Protocol between the EU approximately £85 million has been identified for assistance and African, Caribbean and Pacific states in providing to farmers to diversify into non-agricultural activities such countries with access to EU markets. [309434] for the Programme period 2007-13. To the end of November 2009 £10.7 million had been spent with a further Mr. Thomas: The UK supported the ending of the £18.1 million committed to new diversification projects. Protocol as it led to a highly distorted market for sugar, It is not possible to break these figures down into with European prices three times the global average. specific diversification activities, or to break down overall The reforms of the sugar market will also give greater funding figures into individual financial years within access to EU sugar markets from least developed countries. the given timescale. The UK will continue to monitor the impact of these changes on ACP countries. The European Commission is making ¤1.28 billion transitional funding available to TRANSPORT help assist ACP countries adjust. A50 Iraq Committee of Inquiry Mr. Cash: To ask the Minister of State, Department Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for for Transport if he will take steps to ensure the International Development how many (a) documents installation of effective soundproofed fencing along the and (b) other items of information held in electronic A50 at Blythe Bridge. [309862] format by his Department of each security classification have been submitted to the Iraq Inquiry; Chris Mole: On 14 December 2009 representatives of and if he will make a statement. [309372] the Highways Agency met with the hon. Member for Stone, local politicians and a number of residents to Mr. Douglas Alexander: I refer you to the answer of discuss the recently replaced noise fence on the A50 at 14 December 2009, Official Report, columns 840-41W, Blythe Bridge, and the overall concerns of the residents by the Minister of State for the Cabinet Office (Angela about noise. E. Smith) who has answered on behalf of all Departments. At the meeting, it was agreed that Highways Agency officials would review the effectiveness of the fence and consider other noise related points raised by the group. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Once the review is complete the Department for Transport Bars will write to the hon. Member for Stone and other interested parties to let them know the outcome. Michael Fabricant: To ask the hon. Member for A519 North Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission with reference to the press statement of Mr. Cash: To ask the Minister of State, Department 15 December 2009, on the opening of a nursery on the for Transport what steps he has taken to provide parliamentary estate; what (a) consideration the sufficient safety measures on the A519 at Slindon. Administration Committee gave to and (b) [309865] 827W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 828W

Paul Clark: The A519 is a local road and the The UK does not hold details of the Slovakian responsibility of Staffordshire county council. I understand quality control programme nor those of other member that the county council have recently undertaken speed states. The monitoring of these programmes at a surveys along this stretch of highway which indicate Community level is undertaken by the European that no enforcement action is necessary. As part of the Commission. national review of speed limits on A and B roads, the Department for Transport officials have been in touch A519 through Slindon will undergo a review commencing with the European Commission in respect the recent in April 2010. incident in Slovakia and the Commission has as indicated Airports: Security that it will be writing to the Slovak authorities to ask for a detailed explanation on what happened in order to determine whether further action is necessary. Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport when his Department plans to announce which airports in the Highlands and Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Databases Islands will introduce full body scanners; and when he expects such scanners to be operational. [310376] Bob Russell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how much was received in Paul Clark: The introduction of scanners is a necessary payments from private companies for information from additional measure in response to the heightened threat the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency database in to the travelling public. We are discussing urgently with each of the last five financial years; and how much he the airport industry the widespread roll out of scanners estimates will be received from such payments in (a) at UK airports as soon as is practical and developing 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [309721] the code of practice required for their use. Paul Clark [holding answer 11 January 2010]: The Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Minister of State, following table shows the income received from private Department for Transport whether his Department has companies for information from the Driver and Vehicle undertaken an economic impact assessment of the Licensing Agency’s Databases. introduction of full body scanners at airports in the Highlands and Islands. [310378] £ million

Paul Clark: Relevant assessments will be made, but 2004-05 4.7 the introduction of scanners is a necessary additional 2005-06 6.2 measure in response to the heightened threat to the 2006-07 7.0 travelling public. We are discussing urgently with the 2007-08 8.1 airport industry the widespread roll out of scanners at 2008-09 8.7 UK airports as soon as is practical and developing the 2009-10 19.2 code of practice for their use. 1 Estimated forecast to year end Note: Aviation Figures are not currently available for 2010-11

Mark Hunter: To ask the Minister of State, Driving under Influence Department for Transport how many premium economy tickets were purchased for flights leaving the Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, UK in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009. [309759] Department for Transport what timetable has been set for the (a) publication of and (b) Government Paul Clark: The Department for Transport does not response to the review by Sir Peter North of proposed hold this information. changes to the legislative regime for drink and drug driving. [309461] Aviation: Security Paul Clark: Sir Peter North has been asked to report Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Minister of State, by 31 March. The Department for Transport will then Department for Transport whether his Department has consult on his findings and will then publish the final conducted a recent investigation into the practices of road safety strategy. The date for publishing the report (a) the Slovakian authorities and (b) relevant and the strategy will be decided in light of Sir Peter’s authorities of other EU member states in placing test findings. packets of explosives into passenger baggage for the purposes of testing airport explosive detection systems; Roads: Safety what information his Department holds on whether such practices are in use on (i) flights to the UK and (ii) flights with UK carriers; whether the issue has been Mr. Soames: To ask the Minister of State, placed on the agenda of the Council of Ministers for Department for Transport if he will issue guidance to consideration; and if he will make a statement. [310272] local authorities on best practice in dealing with the effects of extreme weather conditions on UK roads. Paul Clark [holding answer 11 January 2010]: European [310505] regulations on aviation security require each member state to apply a national quality control programme to Mr. Khan: The Government endorse the UK Roads monitor compliance with and ensure the effectiveness Liaison Group’s (UKRLG) code of practice on highways of its aviation security programme. maintenance management, “Well-maintained Highways”, 829W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 830W which already includes recently-updated guidance on Trans-European Network Transport Programme winter service and other extreme weather events. The code is available free from: Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, www.ukroadsliaisongroup.org Department for Transport for which (a) rail and (b) road projects his Department has bid for funds under On the specific issue of managing salt distribution for the Trans-European Network Transport programme in keeping local roads clear, we are working with salt each year since 1997; and how much was (i) requested suppliers, the Local Government Association and the and (ii) allocated in each case. [309628] Highways Agency to prioritise the use of salt, to ensure salt reaches those most in need. Mr. Khan [holding answer 11 January 2010]: The It is up to local highways authorities to decide what following tables list the projects submitted for funding measures to take in response to the severe weather from the Trans-European Network Transport (TEN-T) conditions. programme:

Rail projects ¤ million Title Requested Allocated

1997 Modernisation of the West Coast main line, between London and Scotland n/a 1.6 1997 Channel Tunnel Rail Link n/a 24 1997 Feasibility study and associated design work for the modernisation of the West Coast main line n/a 7 1998 Channel Tunnel Rail Link 16.6 25 1998 West Coast main line 6.9 10 1998 Manchester airport interchange 11.2 0.5 1998 Luton airport—railway station—airport people mover 0.4 0.6 1999 Channel Tunnel Rail Link 35 29.5 1999 West coast main line—studies 15 13 1999 Manchester airport ground transport Interchange—phase 2 3.8 0.8 1999 London Luton airport surface access (people mover)—phase 2 0.7 0.714 1999 Birmingham airport people mover and multi-modal interchange 1.39 1.39 2000 Channel Tunnel Rail Link 40 30 2000 West Coast main line 20 16 2000 Manchester airport ground transport interchange 0.59 0.50 2001 Cross London routes study 1.2 1 2001 Feasibility study for trans-Pennine and North Wales—improved links to Manchester airport 5.0 1.5 2001 Stanstead airport—improved rail link study 3.0 0 2001 Manchester airport ground interchange 5.7 0 2001 Birmingham airport people mover and interchange 1 0 2001 East Coast main line freight (study) 10 2001 East Coast main line passenger study 50 2001 East Coast main line passenger project 50 2001 High speed line study 1.2 0 2002 Feasibility study for Southampton to West Coast main line (Liverpool and Manchester) gauge and 2.5 1 capacity enhancement works for rail freight 2003 Southampton to WCML rail freight upgrade (study) 1 1 2003 Manchester airport ground interchange phase 3a 1.07 1.07 2003 Reconstruction of Bleach Green to Whitehead section of TENs route rail project 2.15 2.15 2004 Reading station 1.14 1 2005 Edinburgh airport rail link study 3.56 2 2005 Rail freight capacity and gauge improvement Haven Ports to South Yorkshire terminals 1.82 0 2006 Glasgow airport rail link study 3.3 1.7 2006 Edinburgh airport rail link study 3.95 0 2006 Heathrow airtrack study 1.37 0 2006 Eurotunnel—ERTMS—GSM-R study (joint bid with France) 6.63 0 2006 SMART (Solent—Midlands advancement of rail transport for freight) 8.5 0 2007 Manchester airport 3rd rail platform 2.07 1.64 2008 Ballymena—Derry: track life extension 1.58 1.58 2008 Forth replacement crossing 6.6 0 2009 Felixstowe—Nuneaton route work 14.9 9.2 2009 Birmingham New Street Gateway—improving access and capacity 2.45 0 2009 Reading station area redevelopment—for the period 2009-2010 17.39 0 2009 West Coast stations 7.46 0 2009 Manchester hub study 0.65 0 2009 Edinburgh Glasgow improvements programme (EGIP) 3.98 0 2009 Forth replacement crossing, Scotland, United Kingdom 9.3 0 2009 Reading station concourse and interchange design and planning application 0.87 0 n/a = Not available. 831W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 832W

Rail projects (multi-annual work programme), budget period 2000-2006 Disability living allowance cases in payment for the Chesterfield parliamentary ¤ million constituency for each of the last five years, as at May of each year Title Requested Allocated May 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Channel Tunnel Rail Link 210 103 West Coast main line 120 53 Care and 4,170 4,380 4,530 4,790 5,010 mobility Kings Cross/St. Pancras 25 21 components interchange Total 6,270 6,500 6,630 6,910 7,150 Felixstowe to Nuneaton 33.7 5 upgrade Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not sum due to rounding. Road projects 2. Figures show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if ¤ million they are in hospital. Title Requested Allocated 3. The postcode of a claimant is used to assign the parliamentary constituency, local authority and government office region. 1997 A75 Stranraer to Gretna Trunk Road n/a 1.3 Source: 1997 English Studies on the Ireland-UK- n/a 1.7 Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate: Work and Benelux Road Link: M6/M11 capacity Pensions Longitudinal Study. studies; bridge strength assessment study; English A14 strategy study Disability living allowance cases in payment for Derbyshire county/unitary local authority for each of the last five years, as at May of each year 1998 Cardiff International Airport Road: 1.3 1.3 Phase B (1998-99) studies May 2000 Ireland-UK-Benelux Road Link 0.52 0.50 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2000 A303 Stonehenge improvement 6.2 0 Care component 5,350 5,600 5,780 5,910 6,110 2001 A303 Stonehenge improvement 1.5 0 only 2001 A8 Belfast to Larne Road 1.7 0 Mobility 8,090 7,930 7,690 7,480 7,260 2001 Trans-Pennine upgrade study (freight) 5 1.5 component only 2005 A1/N1 Newry to Dundalk Works 6.95 5 Care and 25,440 26,440 27,660 28,930 30,140 mobility 2006 A5117 Deeside Park Junction 6.1 4 components improvement works Total 38,880 39,970 41,130 42,320 43,510 2009 A14 Corridor Traffic Management 17.7 11.7 Scheme Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not sum due to 2009 A8 Belfast to Larne (Coleman’s Corner 2.17 2.17 rounding. to Ballyrickard Road) 2. Figures show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude 2009 A6 Randalstown to Londonderry 3.03 1.32 people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if (Londonderry to Dungiven) they are in hospital. 3. The Derbyshire region is defined as the unitary local 2009 A5 Western Transport Corridor (WTC) 10 0 authority of the claimant and includes eight local authorities. The postcode of study a claimant is used to assign the parliamentary constituency, local authority and government office region. Local authorities are assigned by matching n/a = Not available. postcodes against the relevant postcode directory. Source: Road projects (multi-annual work programme), budget periods 2000-2006 and Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate: Work and 2007-2013 Pensions Longitudinal Study. ¤ million Title Requested Allocated Disability living allowance cases in payment in England for each of the last five years, as at May of each year A1 Loughbrickland to Beech Hill Works 2.42 1.5 May A120 Stanstead to Braintree road upgrading 15.8 15.8 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Package for improvements and upgrade of road 283.72 80.71 infrastructure on sections of A14, M6 and A1. Care component 307,350 314,330 317,120 328,040 336,370 only Mobility 443,330 434,990 424,320 416,130 406,200 component only Care and 1,453,120 1,512,780 1,588,240 1,667,590 1,751,540 WORK AND PENSIONS mobility Disability Living Allowance components Total 2,203,800 2,262,100 2,329,680 2,411,760 2,494,110 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not sum due to and Pensions how many people resident in (a) rounding. Chesterfield constituency, (b) Derbyshire and (c) 2. Figures show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude England received (i) the mobility component, (ii) the people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. 3. The postcode of a claimant is used to assign the care component and (iii) both the mobility and the care parliamentary constituency, local authority and government office region. components of the disability living allowance in each Local authorities are assigned by matching postcodes against the relevant of the last five years. [308966] postcode directory. Source: Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate: Work and Jonathan Shaw: The available information is in the Pensions Longitudinal Study. following tables: Disability living allowance cases in payment for the Chesterfield parliamentary constituency for each of the last five years, as at May of each year Employment Schemes: Young People May 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the estimated cost to Care component 810 850 890 900 940 only her Department is of (a) the Young Person’s Mobility 1,290 1,270 1,210 1,220 1,200 Guarantee and (b) the Graduate Guarantee in component only 2009-10. [309729] 833W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 834W

Jim Knight [holding answer 11 January 2010]: In date the customer first contacted Jobcentre Plus or the customer’s Budget 2009, the Chancellor announced the Young first day of unemployment, whichever is the later. The end date is Person’s Guarantee, a £1 billion package of work and the date a formal decision is made on the claim and a notification training opportunities for young people phased in between is issued to the customer on entitlement. October 2009 and January 2010 and available until The following table provides the average actual clearance time March 2011. It is not possible to estimate expenditure taken to process JSA claims over the last 12 months. This information is available on the Jobcentre Plus website. in 2009-10 because it is dependent on the number of jobs that will be bid for in each monthly Future Jobs Month Days Fund bidding round. This cannot be estimated with any degree of certainty as the fund is a challenge fund. December 2008 10.4 The Graduate Guarantee draws on a range of DWP January 2009 10.3 and BIS-funded provision, including BIS’s Graduate February 2009 10.5 Talent Pool and DWP’s Six Month Offer. As we do not March 2009 9.7 know how many graduates will access help through April 2009 9.5 different routes, we are unable to provide an estimate of May 2009 9.9 the cost of the Graduate Guarantee to DWP. June 2009 10.1 July 2009 10.5 Jobseeker’s Allowance August 2009 10.7 September 2009 10.0 Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work October 2009 9.7 and Pensions what the average processing time for a November 2009 9.2 jobseeker’s allowance application has been in the last Source: MISP 11 December 2009 12 months. [309726] I hope this information is helpful

Jim Knight [holding answer 11 January 2010]: The New Deal Schemes administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member with the information Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work requested. and Pensions which of the milestones referred to in her Department’s paper Transforming Britain’s Labour Letter from Darra Singh: Market: Ten years of the New Deal (a) has and (b) The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question has not been met on time; and what progress has been asking what the average processing time for a jobseeker’s allowance made on those milestones which have not been met. application has been in the last 12 months. This is something which falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief [304379] Executive of Jobcentre Plus. Jobcentre Plus does have a target for the average actual clearance Jim Knight: We outlined a number of commitments time taken to process Jobseekers Allowance (JSA) claims. The in the Department for Work and Pensions paper current target is 11.5 days. This time is calculated across an ‘Transforming Britain’s labour market: Ten years of the average of all the claims cleared in any given month looking at the New Deal’. I have outlined these in the following table.

Commitment Date Progress

Parents Consultation on whether the Skills Health Check should be Early 2008 Consultation was undertaken on whether Lone Parents should be mandatory for lone parents mandated to Work Related Activity as part of the 2008 Green Paper (‘No-one Written Off—July 2008’) Review of how to extend right to request flexible working to Spring 2008 Fully introduced parents of older children Introduce group seminars for lone parents nationally April 2008 Fully introduced Jobcentre Plus will aim, where possible, to guarantee lone parents April 2008 Fully introduced who are willing and able to work a job interview with an employer Support and guidance from a personal adviser available for all April 2008 Fully introduced lone parents who have moved into work National roll-out of the In Work Emergency Discretion Fund April 2008 Fully introduced Pilot of the provision of up-front child care costs in London April 2008 Fully introduced Extend In Work Credit to all lone parents April 2008 Fully introduced Pilot of In Work Credit and retention package for lone parents April 2008 Fully introduced Legal duty on local authorities in England and Wales to secure April 2008 Fully introduced sufficient child care to meet the needs of their local communities, in particular those on low incomes and with disabled children, takes effect New Deal for Partners strengthened by increasing number of April 2008 Fully introduced Work Focused Interviews Introduce quarterly Work Focused Interviews for lone parents in From October 2008 Fully introduced the last year before their child reaches the age where they are no longer entitled to Income Support Lone parents with a youngest child aged 12 or over will no longer October 2008 Fully introduced be entitled to Income Support solely on the grounds of being a lone parent 835W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 836W

Commitment Date Progress

Extend Work Trials for up to six weeks for those taking part in the Late 2008 Fully introduced New Deal for Lone Parents Child maintenance disregard in main income related benefits to By end 2008 Fully introduced rise to £20 per week Lone parents with a youngest child aged 10 or over will no longer October 2009 Fully introduced be entitled to Income Support solely on the grounds of being a lone parent Skills screen for all new lone parent Income Support claimants as 2009-10 This will be considered as part of planning for the national part of work-focused interview, and encourage attendance at full implementation of an integrated employment and skills service for Skills Heath Check Jobseeker’s Allowance customers in 2010-11 Child maintenance disregard in main income related benefits to From April 2010 On track rise to £40 per week Lone parents with a youngest child aged seven or over will no October 2010 On track longer be entitled to Income Support solely on the grounds of being a lone parent Every school in England to be an extended school 2010 On track

Jobseekers Back to Work Seminar pilots Early 2008 Implemented March 2009 Flexible New Deal procurement activity begins Spring 2008 Commenced April 2008 Pilot a Better Off in Work Credit October 2008 Introduced in Yorkshire and the Humber in October 2008. Contracts awarded and contract start-up activity Early spring 2009 Successful Flexible New Deal bidders announced May 2009 and start up activity commenced. Contracts signed with14 Flexible New Deal Providers in August 2009 Changes by Jobcentre Plus to implement new Jobseeker’s April 2009 Phase 1 was completed in April 2009 (Phase 2 will be completed in Allowance regime April 2010) First customers referred to contracted Flexible New Deal October 2009 First customers referred to Flexible New Deal providers on 2 October (service delivery started in all contract package areas from 5 October) Potential extension of a Better Off in Work Credit 2009 The Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in his pre-Budget report statement of 9 December 2009 that the Better Off in Work Credit will be rolled out across the country Skills screen for all new Jobseeker’s Allowance customers 2009-10 Fully introduced In trial areas, pilot mandatory Skills Health Checks for long term 2009-10 In the 12 Jobcentre Plus districts involved in trialling Integrated Jobseeker’s Allowance customers Employment and Skills services, Jobseeker’s Allowance claimants who have not attended a Skills Health Check on a voluntary basis by week 26 of their claim are mandated to do so Training allowances for long term Jobseeker’s Allowance 2009-10 This came into effect in April 09 on a national basis (originally customers to attend intensive employability focused training of up trialled in the west midlands) to eight weeks Pilot mandatory basic skills and job-focused training courses for 2009-10 The Pilot for mandatory basic skills and job-focused training Jobseeker’s Allowance customers who have been on benefit for six courses for Jobseeker’s Allowance customers who have been on months benefit for six months is due to commence in 2010 (pending the legislative process)

Health conditions and disabilities Publication of the review of the health of Britain’s working age Early 2008 ‘Working for a healthier tomorrow: Dame Carol Black’s review of population led by the National Director for Health and Work, the health of Britain’s working age population’ was published in Dame Carol Black March 2008. Government responded to the review in November 2008 with the publication of ‘Improving health and work: changing lives’ Pathways to Work available across Great Britain to anyone on April 2008 Fully introduced incapacity benefits Return to Work Credit of £40 per week tax free for a year April 2008 Fully introduced available to everyone eligible who moves into work Introduction of the Employment and Support Allowance October 2008 Fully introduced Introduction of mandatory Pathways to Work interviews and the 2009 Introduction of mandatory Pathways to Work interviews achieved new Work Capability Assessment for existing Incapacity Benefit to timescale. Interviews are taking place between November 2009 customers who are under 25 and March 2011. Existing incapacity benefits customers under 25 will be assessed using the Work Capability Assessment when they are migrated to Employment and Support Allowance from October 2010 Remove Housing Benefit learning restrictions for short term 2009 Yet to be introduced. Exploratory work is ongoing Incapacity Benefit customers to allow them to study full time Skills screen for Employment and Support Allowance customers 2009-11 This will be considered as part of planning for the national soon after the start of claim, and where appropriate a mandatory implementation of an integrated employment and skills service for Skills Health Check at a later point in claim Jobseeker’s Allowance customers in 2010-11

Young people not in work, education or training

Extend early entry to the New Deal for 18 year olds with a April 2008 Fully introduced previous history of not being in work, education or training on a voluntary basis 837W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 838W

Commitment Date Progress

Extend a mandatory early entry to the Flexible New Deal for 18 April 2009 Fully introduced year olds who I have not been in work, education or training for six months

Commissioning and Local Employment Partnership Publish the Department for Work and Pensions Commissioning February 2008 Published February 2008 Strategy Pilots to test enhancing links between housing organisations and 2008 Pilots commenced 2008 and due to conclude spring 2011 Jobcentre Plus services The new Working Neighbourhoods Fund, jointly sponsored by 2008-11 Fully introduced Department for Work and Pensions and Department for Communities and Local Government will help to focus support and encourage enterprise in areas with high unemployment Local Employment Partnerships to help 250,000 people into work End of 2010 The Local Employment Partnerships milestone was achieved by the end of August 2009 and has been extended to 750,000

Benefit reform Publish further details of our approach to benefit reform 2008 Commitment met

Older workers Review of default retirement age 2011 We announced in ‘Building a society for all ages’ that we are bringing forward the review of the Default Retirement Age to 2010. In October the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Work and Pensions issued a joint statement calling for evidence on retirement ages to be submitted by 1 February 2010. This evidence will be used to inform the Default Retirement Age review UK Commission for Employment and Skills operational April 2008 Operational from April 2008 Trial aspects of an integrated employment and skills service, 2008-09 The first integrated employment and skills trial began in including; new screening process for basic literacy, numeracy, September 2008. Since then trials have been under way in 12 language and employability skills; new adult advancement and Jobcentre Plus Districts careers service; Skills Health Check; and Skills Accounts for benefit customers Suite of robust operational targets for Jobcentre Plus and the 2009 The Department for Work and Pensions, and the Department for Learning and Skills Council, to underpin the shared Department Business, Innovation and Skills are in the process of finalising for Work and Pensions/Department for Innovation, Universities robust data measures relating to the commitment made in the and Skills objective of delivering sustainable employment and ‘Command Paper Work Skills, June 2008’ that in 2010-11 over progression 100,000 people will be helped to gain sustainable employment and to achieve a recognised qualification New adult advancement and careers service fully operational 2010-11 On track Integrated employment and skills system fully operational 2010-11 On track

Pathways to Work Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 6 January 2010]: Official statistics are not available on whether jobs are sustained. Pathways to Work has been operating across Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Great Britain since April 2008 and data on jobs are and Pensions how many and what proportion of available up to January 2009. Figures are not available people on Pathways to Work have moved back into on the proportion of customers who get jobs because of sustainable employment (a) in each year since it has the length of time needed to allow cohorts of customers been operating and (b) in each of the last 12 months, to move into work. The monthly number of job entries listed by the main reason for which they were receiving in Jobcentre Plus and Provider-Led districts since April incapacity benefit; and if she will make a statement. 2008 by main disabling condition, is shown in the [307820] following table:

Job entries through Pathways to Work (JCP and Provider-Led, April 2008-January 2009) Diseases of the circulatory Diseases of the Injury, poisoning Mental and Diseases of system or musculoskeletal and certain other behavioural the nervous respiratory system and consequences of Start month Total Unknown Other disorders system system connective Tissue external causes

April 20008 6,580 840 1,430 2,500 180 260 810 570 May2008 6,470 780 1,400 2,540 170 250 760 570 June 2008 6,730 690 1,450 2,740 150 260 780 670 July 2008 6,470 730 1,420 2,500 190 240 790 610 August 2008 6,640 670 1,460 2,600 180 240 790 690 September 2008 9,420 980 2,100 3,650 270 340 1,130 950 October 2008 7,870 670 1,850 3,160 230 280 950 730 November 2008 7,380 690 1,580 2,910 230 270 940 730 December 2008 4,530 510 1,030 1,720 120 170 540 440 839W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 840W

Job entries through Pathways to Work (JCP and Provider-Led, April 2008-January 2009) Diseases of the circulatory Diseases of the Injury, poisoning Mental and Diseases of system or musculoskeletal and certain other behavioural the nervous respiratory system and consequences of Start month Total Unknown Other disorders system system connective Tissue external causes

January 2009 6,040 1,000 1,310 2,060 150 200 720 610 Total 68,120 7,540 15,020 26,390 1,870 2,510 8,230 6,560 Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not sum due to rounding. 2. Medical condition information is based on the International Classification of Diseases, 10th Revision, published by the World Health Organisation. Medical breakdowns are currently available for IB/SDA customers but not for those of ESA. Source: DWP JCP and Provider-Led databases

Social Security Benefits: Overseas Residence Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether an assessment for a package of Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work care under the proposals in the Government’s Social and Pensions how many British citizens resident in Care Green Paper includes an assessment of the other EU member states have been receiving disability additional costs of being disabled which will be carried living allowance, carer’s allowance or attendance out in the same terms as those proposals in the White allowance since 2007. [309534] Paper which introduced each allowance. [307671]

Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 7 January 2010]: Jonathan Shaw: The Green Paper Shaping the Future Since the judgment by the European Court of Justice in of Care Together proposed a new nationally consistent October 2007 over 1,700 people who are resident in care assessment process. We will give more details about other European Economic Area states have been paid the National Care Service offer in due course and this disability living allowance, attendance allowance or carer’s will include information on the care assessment process. allowance. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) whether an assessment for cash and Pensions how many appeals by British citizens disbursement would take account of non-care services resident in other EU member states on disability living currently purchased out of funds made available allowance, carer’s allowance and attendance allowance through attendance allowance or disability living have been (a) made and (b) upheld in the last three allowance under the proposals in the Government’s years. [309536] Social Care Green Paper; [307675] (2) whether she plans to provide an equivalent level Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 7 January 2010]: of support under the proposals in the Government’s Since the judgement by the European Court of Justice Social Care Green Paper to include those non-care in October 2007 over 500 appeals have been made by services currently purchased out of funds made customers who are, or have been, resident in other EEA available through attendance allowance and disability states. Our records do not indicate how many have been living allowance; [307676] upheld in the last three years. (3) whether she plans to place restrictions on the items or services on which people may spend funds Social Services from their (a) attendance allowance or disability living allowance and (b) other care entitlements. [307682] Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether people currently eligible for (a) Jonathan Shaw: We have not taken any decisions on attendance allowance and (b) disability living whether some disability benefits for older people will be allowance would receive (i) an equivalent level of reformed in the new care and support system. If disability support, (ii) an equivalent cash payment and (iii) an benefits for older people are reformed as part of the equivalent cash payment in addition to any other funds National Care Service, those receiving the affected benefits received under the proposals in the Government’s at the time of reform would continue to receive the Social Care Green Paper. [307669] same level of cash support. We also know that the flexibility of disability benefits is valued by those who Jonathan Shaw: As we said in the Green Paper, if we receive them, and we want to ensure that those in were to draw some disability benefits for older people receipt of affected benefits at the time of reform retain into the new National Care Service, we would create a control over how they spend their cash support. new offer for individuals with care needs. This support Under the new care and support system, once people would be delivered in line with the best principles of the are assessed they will get a personal budget rather than current benefits system: a universal entitlement, with being told what services they should receive. They will flexible methods of payment through personal budgets, have as much support as they want in using this resource. and with a focus on lower-level needs and prevention. It Some people will choose to take their budget as cash, is our aim to deliver a better joined-up service, with and pay for everything directly themselves. Others will people only needing one assessment of their needs to prefer to let someone else manage the funding on their gain access to a whole range of care and support behalf—either someone from the local authority, or a services. We will give more details about the National family member or friend. People will have the control to Care Service offer in due course. get the services they want. 841W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 842W

We will give more details about the National Care Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 10 December Service offer in our White Paper in 2010. 2009]: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department met with the Advisory Council Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD) on 10 November and and Pensions how many responses to her Department’s outlined the process for recruiting a new chair of the Social Care Green Paper were (a) in favour of and (b) ACMD following the guidelines of the Office of the opposed to changes to (i) attendance allowance and (ii) Commissioner for Public Appointments (OCPA). My disability living allowance. [307678] officials are currently pursuing options for appointing the new chair with OCPA and with the ACMD. Jonathan Shaw: The public consultation on the Green Paper “Shaping the Future of Care Together”, received around 29,000 responses overall. Analysis of all the Antisocial Behaviour: West Midlands responses is currently under way, and it would be misleading to comment or provide data on the results until this is analysis is fully completed. The Government will be Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the publishing an analysis of the responses in due course. Home Department how much funding his Department has allocated to initiatives to tackle anti-social Winter Fuel Payments: Milton Keynes behaviour in (a) Tamworth constituency, (b) Staffordshire and (c) the West Midlands in each year Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for since 2007. [309442] Work and Pensions how many pensioners in Milton Keynes are in receipt of winter fuel allowance; and how Mr. Alan Campbell: As with all other Crime and much her Department paid to such pensioners in Disorder Reduction Partnerships (CDRPs), Tamworth winter fuel allowance in 2009. [310224] was allocated £25,000 a year from 2003-04 as a contribution towards funding an ASB co-ordinator post. In 2005-06, Angela Eagle: For winter 2008-09—the last winter for in England the antisocial co-ordinators grant was pooled which figures are available—16,810 people in Milton within the safer and stronger communities fund. This Keynes North East and 17,350 people in Milton Keynes pooled budget supports the delivery of outcomes and South West received winter fuel payments. indicators relating to antisocial behaviour in local area The Department paid £3.6 million to people in Milton agreements (LAAs). Keynes North East and £3.8 million to those in Milton Other budgets also contribute towards the wider Keynes South West. cross-Government strategy to tackle antisocial behaviour. The Government are committed to diverting young Winter Fuel Payments: Slough people from crime and antisocial behaviour as demonstrated by our investment of around £2 billion on prevention, Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for including activity such as Sure Start Children’s Centres, Work and Pensions how many claims for winter fuel parenting support and positive activities. Last year we payments were made by households in Slough in each launched the YouthCrime Action Plan, a cross-government of the last five years. [310438] programme of action to tackle youth crime and antisocial behaviour and reduce re-offending. It set out a triple Angela Eagle: Information on winter fuel payment track approach of enforcement where behaviour is claims made by households in Slough is not available. unacceptable, non-negotiable support and challenge to Information about the number of payments made to children and families where it is needed and better and households in Slough is in the following table. 2008-09 earlier prevention. This builds on major progress we is the latest year for which information is available. have made in the last decade in tackling youth offending. Backed by £100 million of new investment it has led to Slough constituency significant action over the past year and a half, which 2004-05 13,800 has made a real difference to young people, families and 2005-06 13,710 communities. The number of young people entering the 2006-07 13,730 criminal justice system for the first time is falling. The 2007-08 13,870 number in England fell from 94,481 in 2007-08 to 2008-09 14,090 74,033 in 2008-09—a 21.6 per cent. decrease. Notes: Home Office led activities also act to tackle antisocial 1. Figures from 2004-05 are rounded to the nearest five 2. Figures from 2005-06 onwards are rounded to the nearest 10. behaviour, for example the introduction of community 3. Parliamentary constituencies are assigned by matching postcodes against the support officers, but a monetary value cannot be assigned relevant ONS postcode directory. to that contribution. Also, on 13 October the Home Source: Information directorate 100 per cent data Secretary announced assistance by experts to 62 areas where public perceptions of antisocial behaviour were high. As Tamworth is a priority area it received a visit HOME DEPARTMENT from an ASB expert on 10 November 2009 and an action plan and support package has been signed off. Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many breaches of antisocial Home Department when a new chair of the Advisory behaviour orders have been recorded in (a) Tamworth Council on the Misuse of Drugs will be appointed; and constituency, (b) Staffordshire and (c) the West if he will make a statement. [306008] Midlands in each year since 2007. [309443] 843W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 844W

Mr. Alan Campbell: Breach of an Anti-Social Behaviour Crime: Nottingham Order (ASBO) is a criminal offence. The number of occasions on which ASBOs were proven to have been Mr. Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for the breached at all courts in the Staffordshire Criminal Home Department how many (a) crimes, (b) crimes Justice System (CJS) area and the West Midlands of domestic burglary, (c) vehicle-related crimes and Government Office Region (GOR) during 2007 is 98 and (d) violent crimes there were in Nottingham North 720 respectively. ASBOs may be breached more than constituency in (i) 1997 and (ii) the last year for which once and in more than one year. Many ASBOs which information is available. [309024] are breached in a particular year will have been issued in a previous year. ASBOs may be issued in one CJS area Mr. Alan Campbell: Recorded crime data are not and breached in another—the breach occasions counted collected specifically at constituency level. The available here are based on area of breach, not issue. The West data relate to the most closely linked Crime and Disorder Midlands GOR comprises the Staffordshire, Warwickshire, Reduction Partnership (CDRP) area. CDRP data are West Mercia and West Midlands CJS areas. available only from 1999-2000 onwards. Data for the Nottingham CDRP area for 2008-09 are given in the Data on breaches of ASBOs collected centrally by following table: the Ministry of Justice and held on the court proceedings database only counts those occasions where the breach Offences recorded by Nottingham police, 2008-09 was proven in court to have occurred and are currently Offence Number available for ASBOs issued between 1 June 2000 and Total crime 47,467 31 December 2007. These data are not compiled below Domestic burglary 4,367 CJS area level. Vehicle-related crime 6,096 Violence against the person 8,599 Burglary: Rotherham Crime: Olympic Games 2012

Mr. MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how many crimes of burglary were the Home Department whether he has made an recorded in Rotherham in each year since 2005. assessment of the likely effects on levels of crime of the [308141] staging of the London 2012 Olympics. [308480] Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is Mr. Alan Campbell: Consideration of levels of crime given in the following table. associated with staging the London 2012 Olympic and Recorded offences of burglary in the Rotherham Crime and Disorder Reduction Paralympic games is undertaken as part of the regular Partnership area Olympic strategic threat assessment process. Analysis of Burglary in a experiences at previous games indicates and in the footprint dwelling Other burglary Total burglary of 2012 Olympic venues suggests that reported crime is 2005-06 1,374 2,151 3,525 unlikely to rise substantially, if at all, during games 2006-07 1,457 2,106 3,563 time. However, we are regularly assessing the possibility 2007-08 1,313 1,818 3,131 of changes in crime levels specifically related to the 2008-09 1,184 1,674 2,858 Olympics and putting in place work to address this where necessary. Children: Police Custody Crimes of Violence: Knives Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for the Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many young people in each Home Department what guidance his Department youth offending team area were (a) assaulted with a provides to chief constables on detention of children in knife and (b) killed in a knife attack in each year since [309886] police cells; and if he will make a statement. 1997. [308099] Mr. Hanson: The Home Office issues two pieces of Mr. Alan Campbell: The requested information is not guidance on the detention of those in custody, including collected centrally. juveniles. Crimes of Violence: Sussex The PACE Codes of Practice, specifically PACE Code C, outline the requirements on the police with regards to Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the juveniles in custody. Copies of the PACE Codes can be Home Department how many (a) offences involving found on the Home Office website: violence against the person, (b) violent sexual offences http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/operational-policing/powers- and (c) offences of robbery with violence there were in pace-codes/pace-code-intro/indexce1a.html?version=17 each basic command unit of the Sussex police force In addition to the PACE Codes, the Home Office, in area in each year from 2002-03 to 2008-09. [308454] conjunction with the Association of Chief Police Officers and the National Centre for Policing Excellence (now Mr. Alan Campbell: Data for all BCUs across this the National Policing Improvement Agency), has also period are given in tables A to C. Table A contains the published “Guidance on the Safer Detention and Handling data on violence against the person offences, table B of Persons in Police Custody”. This guidance is also contains the data on sexual offences and table C contains available on the Home Office website: the data on robbery offences. http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/operational- The Basic Command Unit (BCU) structure in Sussex policing/Safer_Detention_and_Handling1.html has changed across this period, as reflected in the tables. 845W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 846W

The terms ‘violent sexual offences’ and ‘robbery with offence categories. Figures are given for ‘sexual offences’ violence’ do not correspond to recognised Home Office and ‘robbery’ that are Home Office categories.

Table A: Violence against the person offences recorded by Sussex police by BCU (Basic Command Unit), 2002-03 to 2008-091 Violence against the person offences BCU name2 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Brighton and Hove 4,591 4,040 6,287 7,069 7,628 6,549 5,213 East Downs3 2,292 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a East Downs n/a 3,635 5,536 5,441 n/a n/a n/a East Sussex n/a n/a n/a n/a 9,284 7,885 6,343 Gatwick 106 241 459 555 342 403 238 Hastings and Rother 3,050 3,238 4,186 4,140 n/a n/a n/a Highdown 2,923 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a North Downs n/a 3,492 4,607 4,732 5,008 4,154 3,634 Weald 1,497 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a West Downs n/a 4,854 6,018 5,930 6,356 6,091 4,838 Western 1,559 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Total 16,018 19,500 27,093 27,867 28,618 25,082 20,266

Table B: Sexual offences recorded by Sussex police by BCU (Basic Command Unit), 2002-03 to 2008-091 Sexual offences BCU name2 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Brighton and Hove 214 290 438 402 330 282 328 East Downs3 147 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a East Downs n/a 185 369 284 n/a n/a n/a East Sussex n/a n/a n/a n/a 538 446 437 Gatwick61271419103 Hastings and Rother 225 167 279 265 n/a n/a n/a Highdown 185 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a North Downs n/a 263 309 305 320 248 277 Weald 200 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a West Downs n/a 284 399 389 409 341 333 Western 106 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Total 1,083 1,201 1,801 1,659 1,616 1,327 1,378

Table C: Robbery offences recorded by Sussex police by BCU (Basic Command Unit), 2002-03 to 2008-091 Robbery offences BCU name2 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Brighton and Hove 464 460 462 378 404 356 434 East Downs3 220 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a East Downs n/a 277 196 168 n/a n/a n/a East Sussex n/a n/a n/a n/a 297 231 271 Gatwick43***30 Hastings and Rother 286 275 160 170 n/a n/a n/a Highdown 120 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a North Downs n/a 185 181 210 139 153 179 Weald 102 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a West Downs n/a 225 228 170 165 156 150 Western 49 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Total 1,245 1,425 1,228 1,098 1,007 899 1,034 n/a = Not available. 1 The information presented complies with the National Statistics Code of Practice for Data Access and Confidentiality. In order to protect confidentiality, all counts lower than three have been suppressed. Other counts may be suppressed to protect confidentiality. These are denoted by an asterisk symbol in the cell. 2 The BCU structure in Sussex has changed across this period. 3 Before April 2003.

Detention Centres: Children approximately 72 hours and Tinsley House for approximately 24 hours. Where detention is likely to Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State extend beyond this timeframe, families are transferred for the Home Department what support his to Yarl’s Wood, which has facilities to support longer Department provides to young children detained in periods of detention. These include: immigration removal centres. [310110] A comprehensive welfare framework to support family members;

Mr. Woolas: Three immigration removal centres in Access to onsite independent social workers and registered the UK can accommodate families with children. Dungavel counsellors; House routinely accommodates family groups for 847W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 848W

An Ofsted inspected crèche and school classrooms delivering circumstances where there was a match with the 30 hours per week of tuition by qualified teachers for children National DNA Database were persons who had never aged five to 16 years; previously been convicted or cautioned for a criminal A crèche staffed seven days a week from nine to five by offence. [306652] appropriately qualified child care professionals for children under school age. Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 16 December In addition to structured activities, children are able 2009]: Information on the proportion of people arrested to voice concerns using dedicated complaints forms and with no previous convictions or cautions who have can participate in a fortnightly children’s forum. The subsequently been convicted following a match on the centres provide internet and telephone facilities to enable National DNA Database (NDNAD) is not available children to keep in touch with friends in the community. from the NDNAD. The NDNAD holds DNA profiles All immigration removal centres provide free onsite taken from persons arrested for a recordable offence but primary health care to the same level of care as NHS does not hold data on their criminal histories or on the general practices in the community. Referrals to local outcome of the police investigation following a match hospitals for secondary care are made as medically on the NDNAD; this information is held on the Police required. Yarl’s Wood provides dedicated services to National Computer (PNC). The information sought meet the needs of families and children including a could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. paediatric nurse, health and midwife visitors, weight Some research information is, however, available on and immunisation clinics which are able to prescribe the number of DNA profiles taken from those arrested malarial prophylaxis for identified risk groups, access to but not charged and from those arrested, charged but children’s acute mental health services (CAMH) and not convicted of an offence that have resulted in a DNA counselling services. match, thus providing the police with an intelligence link on the possible identity of the offender and assisting Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State in the detection of crimes. In April 2004, an amendment for the Home Department how many children were to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) 1984 detained in immigration removal centres in 2008. came into effect which enabled the police to take and [310111] retain DNA and fingerprints from persons who had Mr. Woolas: The requested information is not available; been arrested for a recordable offence. In the period however, in August 2009 the Control of Immigration April 2004 to December 2005, the retention of DNA Quarterly Statistical publication was expanded to include, profiles of arrested persons who had not been charged for the first quarters of 2009, information on persons or proceeded against had resulted in matches with entering detention, total number of persons leaving crime scene profiles from over 3,000 offences. detention and the number of families with children held In May 2001, an amendment to PACE 1984 came in detention. This information is available split by age into effect which enabled the police to retain DNA (to separately identify children), and will continue to be samples taken from persons who had been charged but published quarterly in the future; however data for not convicted of an offence. In the period May 2001 to earlier years will remain unavailable. December 2005, an estimated 200,000 DNA samples Information on the number of children under the age taken from people charged with offences were retained of 18 entering detention solely under Immigration Act on the NDNAD, which would previously have had to powers in Q1 to Q3 2009 by age and country of nationality be removed because of the absence of a conviction. is available in From these, approximately 8,500 profiles of individuals have been linked with crime scene profiles, involving Q1 and Q2 2009 nearly 14,000 offences. Table 8a and 8b of the Control of Immigration Quarterly Statistical Summary United Kingdom publication at: Some further research in 2009 has also looked at this issue. A research project on DNA retention looked at http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/immiq209.pdf 818 matches in 2008-09, of which at least 639 were for and Tables G and H of the supplementary tables at: murder, manslaughter and rape crimes, and at the http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/immiq209supp.xls 639 subject profiles involved in these matches. The Q3 2009 results showed that 69 subject profiles (11 per cent.) Table 9 of the Control of Immigration Quarterly Statistical from the 639 matches for serious crimes belonged to Summary United Kingdom publication at: individuals who did not have a conviction at the time of http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/immiq309.pdf the match but whose DNA had been retained on the and Table H of the supplementary tables at: NDNAD. This research considered only those matches http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/immiq309supp.xls where the loading of the crime scene DNA profile Published statistics on immigration and asylum are resulted in an immediate match with an existing subject available from the Library of the House and from the profile, and does not include those matches where the Home Office Research, Development and Statistics subject profile was loaded after the crime scene profile. Directorate website at: It therefore shows the value of retaining DNA subject http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- profiles. stats.html A ’match’ means that DNA from material found at a crime scene matches a DNA profile from a known DNA: Databases individual. A detection, prosecution or conviction does not necessarily follow from a match, as the person’s Rob Marris: To ask the Secretary of State for the presence at the crime scene could have been for innocent Home Department what proportion of those arrested reasons, or it may not have been possible or sensible for in (a) 2004, (b) 2005, (c) 2006, (d) 2007 and (e) 2008 a number of reasons to take an investigation of the and subsequently convicted of an offence in match forward. 849W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 850W

Domestic Violence vehicles, requires that all staff present their driving licences for checking at least once per annum. This is Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for the shortly to be increased to a twice per annum check. Home Department what research his Department has Where official vehicles are used then the Home Office commissioned to uncover the extent of domestic self-insures these as permitted under the Road Traffic violence against women. [308151] Act 1988, Section 143. Where private vehicles are used then staff members must have management approval to Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office funds the drive on official business and must present a valid British Crime Survey (BCS) a nationally representative insurance certificate which provides indemnity against survey of adults resident in households in England and all third party claims arising for injury or death of third Wales. The survey asks about crimes that have been parties or damage to property. experienced in the last 12 months including those not Home Office policy, currently managed by HM Prison reported to or recorded by the police. The BCS collects Service but transferring in to Home Office this month, information on domestic violence both through face-to-face requires that any staff involved in an accident must interviews and self-completion methods. The latest findings, report the facts to their line manager within 24 hours. including breakdowns by sex, are available in the Crime All accidents are required to be investigated at local in England and Wales 2008-09 report, which is available business unit level. at the following link: Staff are advised of their requirement to comply with http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1109vol1.pdf current legislation with regard to driving through policy and a driver safety leaflet is provided to business units Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for the to issue to drivers. Home Department what recent steps his Department has taken to support women who are subject to Home Office policy on driving at work is currently under review and is being revised to maintain its currency domestic violence. [308152] with legislation. Mr. Alan Campbell: On 25 November, the Government Drugs launched ‘Together We Can End Violence Against Women and Girls: A Strategy’. As part of the Strategy, the Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government have committed to continuing their investment Home Department what progress has been made by his in specific domestic violence services such as national Department in its review of legal highs commissioned helplines, Multi-Agency Risk Assessment Conferences earlier this year. [308721] (MARACs) and Independent Domestic Violence Advisers (IDVAs). Over £5 million will be invested in 2010-11 in Mr. Alan Campbell: In March this year, my predecessor IDVAs and the further roll-out of MARACs. commissioned the Advisory Council on the Misuse of The strategy also commits to developing a new online Drugs (ACMD) to undertake a review of so called directory of Violence Against Women and Girls services, “legal highs”or new psychoactive substances, and provide which will include services for victims of domestic advice on their harms and availability. The first output violence. of this work was the ACMD’s advice on synthetic cannabinoid receptor agonists found in smoking products Driving such as “Spice” which, following approval of Parliament, have been controlled as class B drugs under the Misuse Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for the of Drugs Act 1971 since the 23 December 2009. The Home Department what mechanisms are in place to ACMD’s review continues, with its consideration of the ensure that staff who drive (a) a vehicle for which (i) cathinone group of substances, which includes mephedrone, his Department and (ii) one of its executive agencies is as its next priority. responsible have valid driving licences and (b) their own vehicles in the course of their official duties for Entry Clearances (A) his Department and (B) one of its executive agency have valid driving licences and insurance; what Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the guidance is issued to those staff in respect of road Home Department pursuant to the answer of safety while carrying out official duties; what steps are 8 December 2009, Official Report, columns 220-22W, taken to monitor compliance with that guidance; what on entry clearances, if he will provide equivalent requirements there are on such staff to report to their statistics for (a) January and (b) February 2009. line managers accidents in which they are involved [309806] while driving in the course of their official duties; and whether such reports are investigated. [302165] Mr. Woolas [holding answer 11 January 2010]: The requested information for January and February is provided Mr. Woolas: The Home Office policy on fleet as follows. In addition the figures provided for the management and operations, including the use of private period March-October have been updated.

(a) Tier one (b) Tier one (post (f) Tier four (g) Tier five youth (general) study) (d) Tier two (ICT) (f) Tier four (child) (general) mobility 2009 IC OOC IC OOC IC OOC IC OOC IC OOC IC OOC

January 639 2,281 2,051 319 185 1,002 —————1,890 February 1,025 2,024 4,556 375 503 1,461 —————1,560 851W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 852W

(a) Tier one (b) Tier one (post (f) Tier four (g) Tier five youth (general) study) (d) Tier two (ICT) (f) Tier four (child) (general) mobility 2009 IC OOC IC OOC IC OOC IC OOC IC OOC IC OOC

March2,4912,3764,5603725731,89315————3,306 April 3,238 1,864 1,901 298 478 1,756 367 37 — 957 — 1,169 May 3,357 1,078 1,751 338 585 1,745 694 77 3 4,386 — 2,896 June 2,648 785 2,497 379 831 2,163 1,995 404 11 12,127 — 1,839 July 1,844 560 2,460 300 806 2,009 5,361 1,231 13 30,528 — 1,555 August 1,899 594 1,473 356 528 1,975 5,199 3,101 19 53,572 — 1,101 September 2,158 640 1,895 396 463 2,109 6,921 1,000 46 62,006 — 1,124 October 2,459 643 2,441 422 551 1,893 9,170 269 105 24,586 — 1,231 Note: IC = In-country grants of leave to remain OOC = Out-of-country visas issued

The table above is based on approved main applications aimed at police community support officers, domestic only. These data are not provided under National Statistic violence, roads policing and public protection programmes. protocols. They have been derived from local management NGO organisations who act as first responders have information and is therefore provisional and subject to been chosen specifically for their extensive knowledge change. and experience in working in the field of human trafficking and often contribute to the training of other agencies. Hamas: Internet Human trafficking training for local authorities is Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for the delivered either as part of the Local Safeguarding Children Home Department if he will take steps to prevent Board child trafficking training model or directly by the Hamas’s al-Fatah website being accessed by children London Safeguarding Children Board pilot support group to local authorities across the UK. resident in the UK. [309799] The Department of Health has issued guidelines to Mr. Hanson [holding answer 11 January 2010]: We assist professionals and services to identify and respond are currently assessing whether there is sufficient evidence to the needs of sexually abused and exploited victims, to include the al-Fatah website in the list of material including those who have been trafficked into and within provided on a voluntary basis to filtering companies for the UK. The Trafficking Toolkit, available on the Criminal inclusion in their parental control software. Justice System, also provides specific guidance to NHS It would be for the police to decide whether a website professionals. reaches the threshold for a notice to be issued under section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2006. Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many referrals of potential Human Trafficking victims of trafficking have been made to the National Referral Mechanism at the UK Human Trafficking Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Centre between 1 April 2009 and 31 December 2009; Home Department what training and guidance first and which agencies made such referrals. [309665] responder agencies have received on how to make a referral to the national referral mechanism on behalf of Mr. Woolas: Between 1 April 2009 and 31 December a potential victim of trafficking; and who has 2009 there have been 289 referrals made to the Competent provided it. [309623] Authority within the UK Human Trafficking Centre. The referrals were made by the following agencies: Mr. Woolas [holding answer 11 January 2010]: Guidance on the National Referral Mechanism can be found on Agency Number of referrals the Home Office website: http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/ Police 166 humantrafficking005.htm Local authorities 157 In addition, a Trafficking Toolkit is available on the Poppy 27 Criminal Justice System website, which provides advice Kalayaan 19 and support to all frontline practitioners who may TARA 9 come into contact with victims of human trafficking. Migrant Helpline 8 Copies of these publications will be made available in CPS 2 the House Library. NHS 1 The UK Border Agency (UKBA) has developed Total 289 mandatory human trafficking training for all staff, which 1 One of these cases was incorrectly referred to UKBA by the local it has made available to other front line agencies. The authority. UK Human Trafficking Centre, in conjunction with the National Policing Improvement Agency, has developed Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the training for police officers. The training covers all forms Home Department how many potential victims of of human trafficking and has been incorporated into trafficking who received no decision on their referral to programmes for all new officers as well as specific the National Referral Mechanism since 1 April 2009 programmes such as initial detective training and those have subsequently gone missing. [309667] 853W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 854W

Mr. Woolas: Between 1 April 2009 and 31 December Mr. Alan Campbell: We plan to commence: section 28 2009 there have been seven suspended cases where the (persistent sales to children - “three strikes to two individual has either absconded or gone missing prior strikes”); section 29 (confiscation of alcohol from under to the reasonable grounds decision being made. 18’s); section 30 (new offence of persistently possessing During the same period 18 cases have also been alcohol in a public place by under 18’s); section 31 withdrawn as the individual intended to leave the UK (extending directions to leave to those aged 10 or over), prior to the reasonable grounds decision being made. and section 33 (allowing licensing authorities to act as interested parties) from Friday 29 January 2010. Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the We are currently developing the guidance on the Home Department how many of the people who have young people provisions and the licensing authorities as received a positive conclusive grounds decision from interested parties provisions, so that the police, local the National Referral Mechanism since 1 April 2009 authorities and youth services are aware of the new were (a) granted a residence permit or any other form powers, how they work and fit together. The guidance of leave to remain and (b) left the UK through (i) will be ready by the end of January. voluntary return and (ii) other means. [309669] Police National Computer: Wales Mr. Woolas: From the cases referred into the National Referral Mechanism between 1 April 2009 and 31 December 2009, 85 have received positive conclusive grounds decisions. Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for the Of these 85 decisions, 30 have been granted a residence Home Department how many people resident in (a) permit or other form of leave to remain and 40 are EU Islwyn constituency, (b) Gwent and (c) Wales who or British nationals whose stay in the UK is not subject have not been convicted of a crime have their details on to immigration control. Tracking victims beyond the the Police National Computer. [308150] reflection and recovery period is limited if there is no longer a risk to their safety or health and they have the Mr. Alan Campbell: The Police National Computer right to remain in the UK (UK and EEA victims in (PNC) is an operational tool and is not designed to particular).This makes it difficult to confirm the numbers produce the information requested. To obtain the of voluntary returns in this category. There is currently information would incur a disproportionate cost as no record of any enforced return of individuals conclusively software would need to be designed, produced and found to be victims of trafficking returned to their own tested to interrogate the PNC. country. Prisoners: Repatriation Humberside Police

Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department what the budget of Humberside Home Department how many foreign nationals in UK prisons have received payments in respect of their police force has been in each year since 2000. [309766] return to their country of origin in the last three years; Mr. Hanson: The information requested can be found and what recent estimate has been made of the number in the following table. of such foreign nationals who subsequently returned to the UK. [309948] We announced details of the police grant settlement for 2010-11 on 26 November 2009. Humberside police Mr. Woolas: The chief executive of the UK Border authority is now in a position to consider their final Agency regularly writes to the Home Affairs Committee budget for 2010-11. to give the most robust and accurate information. She Humberside police force budget 2000-01 to 2009-10 intends to update the Committee on the Facilitated Budget requirement (£ Budget change Returns Scheme in January this year. million) (percentage) Measures are in place at the borders to stop the 2000-01 118,9 4.0 re-entry of such individuals who are subject to deportation 2001-02 128,2 7.8 or exclusion orders. 2002-03 131,6 2.7 2003-04 141,9 7.9 Proceeds of Crime 2004-05 150,4 5.9 2005-061 152,0 -3.1 2006-07 158,0 4.0 Mr. Pickles: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2007-08 164,9 4.3 Home Department what criteria the Serious and 2008-09 169,6 2.9 Organised Crime Agency uses to determine whether an 2009-10 175,0 3.1 (a) individual and (b) organisation has received a 1 2005-06 figures have been adjusted for purposes of comparison with future tainted gift. [308310] years following the transfer of pensions and security funding from general grant in 2006-07. Mr. Alan Campbell: When acting as a Law Enforcement Licensing Laws: Councillors Agency in the conduct of a criminal confiscation investigation, SOCA operates under the legislative Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State parameters set out in the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 for the Home Department what the timetable is for the (POCA). Section 77 of POCA (section 225 in relation commencement of the provisions in the Policing and to Northern Ireland) sets out the criteria used to assess Crime Act 2009 to make councillors interested parties whether a gift, either to an individual or organisation, is for the purposes of the Licensing Act 2003. [308405] tainted. 855W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 856W

Security Young Offenders

Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for the Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent assessment he has Home Department what data his Department collects made of the most serious non-state threats to UK on youth crime at middle layer super output area level; security. [310504] and where such data are published. [309515] Mr. Hanson: The assessment of serious non-state threats to the UK is under constant review. Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office does not collect The revised version of CONTEST, published in March any information on youth crime at middle super output 2009, is our counter-terrorism strategy and provides a area level as no recorded crime statistics are collected comprehensive assessment of threat from international centrally on the age of either the victim or the alleged terrorism. offender. An updated version of The National Security Strategy Some police recorded crime data in terms of the of the United Kingdom, ’Security for the Next Generation’, number of offences recorded at middle super output was published in June 2009. The National Security area level have been released as experimental statistics Strategy sets out our assessment of the full range of on the Neighbourhood Statistics website at: security challenges the UK faces and our response to http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk them. The most recent data currently published are for In summer 2008, the Government published a national- 2005-06, but it is planned to update the site in late 2010 level risk register which sets out our assessment of the with more recent crime data for the same/similar categories likelihood and potential impact of a range of different covering the majority of police forces in England and risks that may directly affect the United Kingdom. Wales.

Sussex Police: Detection Rates

Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Home Department what the crime detection rate of the Sussex police force has been in each year since 1996-97. 10 Downing Street: Repairs and Maintenance [309115] Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is Culture, Media and Sport if he will place in the Library given in the table. a copy of the submission made by English Heritage in It should be noted that non-sanction detections which relation to the Downing Street listed building works contribute to the overall detection rates have fallen in with planning application reference 09/00619/LBC. recent years reflecting a significant shift by many police [308694] forces away from recording detections where no further action is taken. From 1 April 2007 the rules governing Margaret Hodge: Westminster city council planning recording of non-sanction detections were revised to application reference 09/00619/ LBC refers to an application reduce the scope within which they can be claimed to a dated 22 January 2009 for listed building consent to very limited set of circumstances. For these reasons refurbish existing ground floor toilets and form an overall detection rates over time are not fully comparable. opening to fit equipment to extract air from the existing Detection rates are a ratio of crime detected in a first floor toilet in 10 Downing Street. English Heritage period to crimes recorded in a period. They are not were notified of the application on 11 February 2009 based on tracking whether individual crimes recorded and replied on 12 March 2009 authorising Westminster in a period have eventually been detected. city council to determine the application for listed building Overall detection rate for offences recorded by the police in Sussex consent as it saw fit. There was no requirement for Period Detection rate (Percentage) English Heritage’s specialist advice. A copy of this letter will be placed in the Library. 1996 29 1997 26 Arts Council England 1997-98 26 1998-991 25 Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for 1999-20002 25 Culture, Media and Sport (1) how much was paid to 2000-01 23 Arts Council England’s (a) senior managers and (b) 2001-02 25 board members in (i) performance-related and (ii) 2002-033 24 special bonus payments in each of the last three years; 2003-04 24 for what reason each such bonus was paid; how many 2004-05 25 members of the senior management team refused to 2005-06 30 accept a bonus; and by what criteria such bonuses are 2006-07 31 awarded; [310196] 2007-08 32 (2) how much was paid to Arts Council England 2008-09 26 employees in (a) performance-related and (b) special 1 The percentage of crimes detected in that financial year using the expanded coverage and revised counting rules which came into effect on 1 April 1998. bonus payments in each of the last three years; [310197] 2 New instructions which clarified the rules for detecting crime were introduced (3) how many Arts Council England employees have on 1 April 1999. 3 The National Crime Recording Standard was introduced in 2002-03. Figures participated in its special leave scheme in each of the before and after that date are not directly comparable. last three years; [310200] 857W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 858W

(4) how much Arts Council England intends to (2) how much Arts Council England spent on the spend on the establishment of relaxation rooms for advertisement of tenders for contracts in the last five staff at its head office in Great Peter Street, London; years; [309621] [310201] (3) how much Arts Council England has spent on (5) how much Arts Council England has spent on media monitoring in each of the last three years; employing Lothar Gotz to redecorate its head office in [309772] Great Peter Street, London; [310202] (4) which (a) advertising agencies and (b) other (6) for what reason Arts Council England is to organisations supplied consultancy services for commission new artwork for its head office in Great advertising campaigns for Arts Council England in Peter Street, London; how much Arts Council England each of the last five years; and what the cost of these has spent on advertising for such works; and if he will services was; [309774] make a statement. [310203] (5) how much Arts Council England has spent on advertising in (a) weekly and (b) regional newspapers Margaret Hodge: The information requested is not in the last five years; [309776] held centrally by the Department. (6) how many complaints Arts Council England Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of Arts received from members of the public in each of the last Council England to write direct to my hon. Friend the five years. [309785] Member for West Bromwich East. Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Margaret Hodge: The information requested is not held centrally by the Department. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of Arts Culture, Media and Sport (1) what the total cost of Council England to write direct to my hon. Friend the Arts Council England’s Arts Jobs website has been to Member for West Bromwich East. Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. date; [309618] (2) how much Arts Council England spent on (a) Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Christmas parties and (b) staff entertainment in the Culture, Media and Sport (1) how many Arts Council last three years; [309778] England staff have (a) been reprimanded, (b) had (3) how much Arts Council England spent on their contract of employment terminated and (c) been Christmas cards in each of the last three years; [309779] prosecuted for theft of property in each of the last three years; [309771] (4) how much has been spent by Arts Council England on the acquisition of properties in each of the (2) how much Arts Council England paid to last five years; what the (a) address, (b) cost and (c) recruitment agencies for the recruitment of temporary date of acquisition was of each such property; how staff in each of the last five years; [309773] much has been realised by Arts Council England from (3) how much Arts Council England has spent on the disposal of properties in each of the last five years; staff reward and recognition schemes in each of the and what the (i) address, (ii) sale price and (iii) date of last three years; [309777] sale of each was; [309781] (4) how many Arts Council England employees have (5) which (a) food and (b) drinks companies Arts the word diversity in their job title; [309814] Council England has contracted in each of the last (5) what flexible working arrangements were three years; and how much Arts Council England has available to Arts Council England staff in each of the paid to each such company in each such year; [309782] last five years; and how many staff participated in such (6) how many (a) drinks receptions and (b) dinner arrangements in each such year; [309815] parties Arts Council England has hosted in each of the (6) how many communication officers Arts Council last three years; and what the cost of each such event England employs; and what the cost of their salaries was; [309783] was in 2008-09; [309816] (7) how much Arts Council England has spent on the (7) how many Arts Council England employees have design of its website in each of the last five years. the word communication in their job title; [309817] [309784] (8) how many Arts Council England staff participated in its employee relocation scheme in each Margaret Hodge: The information requested is not of the last three years; and what the cost was of such held centrally by the Department. The issues raised are arrangements in each such year; [309818] the operational responsibility of Arts Council England. (9) how many Arts Council England employees used Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive to write the organisation’s car allowance scheme in each of the direct to my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, last three years; and what the cost of the scheme was in East (Mr. Watson). Copies of the reply will be placed in each of those years; [309819] the Libraries of both Houses. (10) what the cost of essential car user lump sum payments to Arts Council England employees was for Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for each vehicle engine size in each of the last three years; Culture, Media and Sport (1) what the cost to Arts [309820] Council England of public opinion research was in (a) (11) what the (a) job description and (b) salary 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and (c) 2008-09; and how much scale is of each employee of Arts Council England’s such funding it has allocated for 2009-10; [309620] senior management team; [309821] 859W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 860W

(12) how many Arts Council England employees Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for received finance loans to buy a (a) car, (b) scooter and Culture, Media and Sport what works from the (c) bicycle in each of the last three years; and what the Government Art Collection are being used by Arts cost of providing such loans was in each of those years; Council England. [309890] [309822] Margaret Hodge: There are no Government Art (13) on how many occasions Arts Council England’s Collection works of art being used by Arts Council whistleblowing procedure has been used in each of the England. last three years; when that policy was last reviewed; and if he will make a statement; [309823] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for (14) what steps Arts Council England is taking to Culture, Media and Sport (1) how many items are in prevent bullying in its workplace on grounds of (a) Arts Council England’s Arts Council Collection; how religion, (b) ethnicity and (c) sexual orientation; and many of these items are on public display; and what the how much Arts Council England plans to spend on cost of storing items belonging to the collection was in such programmes in the next 12 months; [309889] the latest year for which information is available; (15) how many Arts Council England staff have been [309891] subject to (a) stage 1, (b) stage 2 and (c) stage 3 (2) how many items Arts Council England has performance capability meetings in each of the last five purchased for its Arts Council Collection in each of the years; and what proportion of such meetings have last three years; and how many such items are on public resulted in (i) a dismissal and (ii) a subsequent appeal display; [309892] against dismissal by a member of staff; [309896] (3) how many works belonging to Arts Council (16) how many diversity officers Arts Council England’s Arts Council Collection have been damaged England employs; and what the total cost of their (a) in transit and (b) at exhibition in each of the last annual salaries was in the latest year for which five years; [309894] information is available; [309897] (4) how much revenue Arts Council England (17) how many (a) permanent and (b) temporary generated from loaning items from the Arts Council staff Arts Council England employs in each region. Collection in each of the last three years; [309893] [309898] (5) how many works belonging to Arts Council England’s Arts Council Collection have been stolen in Margaret Hodge: The information requested is not each of the last five years. [309895] held centrally by the Department. Margaret Hodge: The information requested is not Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of Arts held centrally by the Department. Council England to write direct to my hon. Friend the Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of Arts Member for West Bromwich, East. Copies of the reply Council England to write direct to my hon. Friend the will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Member for West Bromwich, East. Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (1) how much Arts Council Arts Council England: Occupational Pensions England has spent on legal fees in each of the last five years; [309775] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of (2) how many complaints Arts Council England 14 December 2009, Official Report, column 665W, on received in response to answers it provided under the Arts Council England: finance, whether Arts Council provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 in England may (a) use proceeds from the National each year for which figures are available. [309786] Lottery and (b) grant-in-aid funding from his Department to reduce its pension fund deficit; and if Margaret Hodge: The information requested is not he will make a statement. [308368] held centrally by the Department. Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of Arts Margaret Hodge: Issues such as pay and pensions are Council England to write direct to my hon. Friend the operational matters for Arts Council England. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson). Copies However, as part of the administrative costs associated of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of both with its role as a national lottery distributor, and in Houses. accordance with the National Lottery Act, Arts Council England (ACE) may use proceeds from the national Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for lottery to defray any expenses incurred by it, provided Culture, Media and Sport what his most recent such expenses have been incurred as a result of ACE’s estimate is of the monetary value of Arts Council national lottery work. England’s property portfolio. [309780] ACE may use grant in aid funding to reduce its pension fund deficit. Margaret Hodge: The information requested is not Bell Towers: Expenditure held centrally by the Department. Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of Arts David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Council England to write direct to my hon. Friend the Culture, Media and Sport what bell towers have Member for West Bromwich, East. Copies of the reply received grants from public funds in the last 12 months. will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. [308850] 861W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 862W

Margaret Hodge: Funds are available from public Departmental Consultants sources to support repairs to bell towers where they are part of listed church buildings. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, English Heritage and the Heritage Lottery Fund Media and Sport what expenditure his Department jointly operate a grant scheme to support repairs to incurred on external consultancy fees in each of the listed places of worship. Additionally, the Government last five years. [309742] operates a Listed Places of Worship Grant scheme that makes grants equivalent to the VAT incurred in making Mr. Simon [holding answer 11 January 2010]: The repairs to listed buildings primarily in use as places of table shows the total expenditure incurred on external worship. consultancy fees in each of the last five years. However data is not available under either scheme about the amounts disbursed for works to bell towers, £ or the locations of bell towers that have benefited. 2009-101 622,140.47 Casinos 2008-09 1,219,866.54 2007-08 1,162,919.27 2006-07 886,190.79 Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 1,161,338.03 Culture, Media and Sport when he expects the 1 To date only proposed new and large casinos to be opened. [310084]

Mr. Sutcliffe: This is not a matter for central Government. Departmental Manpower It is the responsibility of the 16 local authorities permitted to offer new casino premises licences under the Gambling Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Act 2005 to determine the timetable for the opening of Media and Sport how many press officers are employed the proposed new small and large casinos. by his Department; and what the staffing cost for press officers has been in each of the last five years. [309740] Departmental Computers Mr. Simon [holding answer 11 January 2010]: The Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for number of press officers currently employed by the Culture, Media and Sport which websites his Department is 11. Department’s staff are blocked from accessing on The cost for press officers in each of the last five years departmental networked computers. [310053] were:

Mr. Simon: My Department uses SmartFilter to block Cost of press officers (£) access to web sites which are deemed unsuitable. The following categories of sites are blocked. 2004-05 466,206 2005-06 1550,124 Anonymizers 2006-07 1733,412 Criminal Activities 2007-08 1682,858 Game/Cartoon Violence 2008-09 1706,643 Drugs 1 This includes press officers working on the Olympics. Extreme Hate/Discrimination Departmental Surveys Illegal Software Malicious Sites Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Nudity Culture, Media and Sport if he will place in the Library Provocative Attire a copy of the results of his Department’s most recent Phishing staff survey; which organisation carried out the survey; P2P/File Sharing and what the cost of the survey was. [309839] Spam URLs Pornography Margaret Hodge: DCMS will be publishing its October 2009 staff survey results on the DCMS website Spyware/Adware in April 2010. Following publication we will place a Tobacco copy of the results in the Library. Gruesome Content The supplier for the DCMS staff survey in October 2009 Violence was ORC International who were procured by Cabinet Two sites blocked that do not fall into these categories Office to deliver the first cross-civil service People Survey. are: The People Survey replaced all existing staff surveys www.filthyjokes.freeserve.co.uk in the civil service with a single questionnaire. internationallottobv.net The cost of the 2009-10 People Survey for DCMS My Department blocks certain sites based on central was £8,796.56. By procuring a single supplier for staff guidance about potential threats, as is standard practice surveys in 2009-10 the civil service has saved 35 per on security matters we do not publish this list. cent. on the total cost of staff surveys in 2008-09. 863W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 864W

Gambling I shall ask the chief executive of the Gambling Commission to write to the hon. Member about the steps the Commission has already taken to increase Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for the effectiveness of the regulation of online gambling; Culture, Media and Sport (1) what steps the Gambling the allocation of funding to assess the effect of online Commission is taking to seek to ensure that the gambling on the promotion of the licensing objectives; licensing objectives are not adversely affected by the and the powers it has available to regulate and sanction use by UK customers of online gambling companies online operators based outside of Britain. Copies of the operating in non-EEA white listed countries; [310114] response will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. (2) what factors are taken into account by the Government in deciding whether to permit a gambling Gambling Act 2005 operator based outside the EEA to apply for a place on the white list; [310118] Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many prosecutions have (3) what recent assessment has been made of the been made as a result of complaints made to his effects on the regulation of operators of online Department under the chain-gifting provisions of the gambling services who are located outside the United Gambling Act 2005. [309483] Kingdom of the operation of the white list system; [310138] Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department has not received any (4) what recent steps the Gambling Commission has complaints under the chain-gifting sections in the Gambling taken to increase the effectiveness of the regulation of Act 2005. The Ministry of Justice advise that from 2005 online gambling; [310139] to 2007, the years for which information is available, no court proceedings at the magistrates court in England (5) what steps he is taking to ensure that and Wales were recorded on this issue. UK-registered online gambling operators which are located outside the UK contribute to the cost of research, education and treatment in respect of Gambling: Crime problem gambling; [310151] Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for (6) what recent steps the Gambling Commission has Culture, Media and Sport what recent steps the taken to assess the effects on the promotion of the Gambling Commission has taken to (a) estimate the licensing objectives of online gambling; and how much monetary value of the illegal gambling market and (b) funding has been allocated to the Gambling reduce the incidence of illegal gambling. [310115] Commission for the purpose of making such assessments in the last five years; [310152] Mr. Sutcliffe: The information requested is a matter (7) what powers the Gambling Commission have to for the Gambling Commission. Accordingly, I have (a) regulate and (b) sanction an operator of online asked the chief executive to write to the hon. Member gambling services in circumstances where the operator for Bath. Copies of the reply will be placed in the is located outside the United Kingdom. [310255] Libraries of both Houses.

Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Sutcliffe: I laid a written statement before the Culture, Media and Sport what recent representations House on 7 January outlining proposals, and announcing he has received on the performance of the Gambling a consultation, for the future regulation of remote Commission on tackling illegal gambling. [310117] gambling in Great Britain. The Statement, which can be found online at: Mr. Sutcliffe: I regularly receive representations, both verbal and written, from trade associations and individual http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/media_releases/ businesses within the gambling industry about a range 6562.aspx of issues relating to gambling regulation, including the recognises that whilst there are protections in place for Gambling Commission’s role in relation to tackling British consumers gambling online with operators based illegal gambling. outside Britain, there are differences in the approach of other regulators in respect of regulatory standards and Gaming Machines: Taxation requirements when compared to those required by the Gambling Commission. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for I have therefore decided to consult on changing the Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he existing system, so that all operators who want to target has had with (a) HM Treasury and (b) the Gambling British consumers have to adhere to the provisions of Commission on the tax status of category B3A gaming the Gambling Act, its secondary legislation and the machines. [309855] Gambling Commission’s standards. This would include a requirement for operators to set out how they will Mr. Sutcliffe: I have not had any discussions with contribute towards research, education and treatment HM Treasury or the Gambling Commission about category of problem gambling in the UK. I expect the consultation B3A gaming machines. I am aware that representations to include consideration of issues relating to the white have been made to the Government in relation to the list, which has been temporarily closed to new applications tax status of these machines. However, issues regarding since 30 April 2009 when my Department began to look taxation are a matter for my right hon. Friend the in detail at these issues. Chancellor of the Exchequer. 865W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 866W

Horse Racing: Betting Premises licences and club premises certificates per thousand population 31 March each year Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Local authority name 2007 2008 2009 Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he Tower Hamlets 3.6 3.9 4.2 has had on the long-term future of the horserace Waltham Forest 2.7 3.3 3.4 betting levy. [309615] Wandsworth 3.7 3.7 3.7 Westminster 12.5 12.6 12.9 Mr. Sutcliffe: I meet regularly with chair and chief London total 3.2 3.8 4.0 executive of the Horserace Betting Levy Board, most recently on 28 October 2009, and I will do so again later The number of licences in 2007 have been adjusted by this month. A modernised and appropriate funding Mid-2007 Population estimates (produced by the Office mechanism is important for the purpose of securing the of National Statistics). The number of licences in 2008 long-term future of British horse racing. However, my and 2009 have both been adjusted by Mid-2008 Population view is also that the levy must continue until there is a estimates (latest available estimates). Camden, Hounslow, viable alternative to replace it. Middle Temple and Southwark did not submit a response in the 2007 collection, so their numbers of licences in Licensed Premises this year is unknown.

Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Olympic Games 2012: Facilities Culture, Media and Sport how many licensed premises there were per 1,000 of population in each London Hugh Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for borough in each of the last three years; and if he will Culture, Media and Sport when the starting gate review make a statement. [310291] of the 2012 Sports Legacy plans will be published; and if he will place a copy in the Library on publication. Mr. Sutcliffe: The Alcohol, Entertainment and Late [310374] Night Refreshment Licensing Statistical Bulletin collects the number of premises licences and club premises Mr. Sutcliffe: The OGC Starting Gate review was certificates issued under the provisions of the Licensing carried out for my Department on the basis of confidential Act 2003. discussions. We have provided copies of the report to The following table shows this by individual London those who participated in the process, but have no borough (licensing authority) as at 31 March 2007, current plans to publish it. 2008 and 2009 per 1,000 total population. Premises licences and club premises certificates per thousand population Policing and Crime Act 2009 31 March each year Local authority name 2007 2008 2009 Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for Barking and Dagenham 2.1 2.3 2.5 Culture, Media and Sport when he plans to make an Barnet 2.7 2.8 3.9 order to commence section 33 of the Policing and Bexley 2.4 2.4 2.4 Crime Act 2009. [309373] Brent 3.0 2.9 3.1 Bromley 2.6 4.1 3.0 Mr. Sutcliffe: This is a matter for the Home Office Camden n/a 6.6 6.8 who have advised that they plan to commence sections City of London Corporation 84.1 90.4 91.5 28, 29, 30, 31 and 33 on the 29 January. (including Middle and Inner Temple) They are currently developing the guidance to accompany Croydon 2.8 3.0 3.0 these provisions which will be released in late January/early Ealing 2.9 2.9 3.1 February 2010. Enfield 2.5 2.6 2.7 Greenwich 2.9 3.3 3.5 Hackney 3.7 4.0 4.4 Hammersmith and Fulham 4.5 4.4 5.0 WOMEN AND EQUALITY Haringey 3.2 3.5 4.1 Harrow 2.4 2.5 2.4 Departmental Sick Leave Havering 2.1 2.3 2.3 Hillingdon 3.1 3.1 3.1 Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for Women and Hounslow n/a 3.3 3.4 Equality how many working days were lost due to Islington 6.2 5.8 6.3 illness of employees within her Department in each of Kensington and Chelsea 5.6 5.5 5.5 the last three years; and how many of those were Kingston upon Thames 3.0 3.4 3.4 attributed to stress in each year. [310229] Lambeth 4.1 4.3 4.6 Lewisham 2.9 3.0 3.2 Maria Eagle: The Government Equalities Office Merton 2.6 2.9 2.8 established its present electronic Performance Management Newham 2.7 2.9 3.0 System in October 2008. Prior to this, records were not Redbridge 2.2 2.4 2.4 kept centrally. For the period 6 October 2008 until Richmond upon Thames 4.3 4.5 4.4 31 December 2009 the Government Equalities Office Southwark n/a 4.0 4.2 recorded 211 working days lost due to illness of employees Sutton 2.3 2.3 2.5 and 26 of these days were attributed to stress. 867W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 868W

CABINET OFFICE Letter from Mark Lund, dated 7 January 2010: As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information Central Office of Information (COI), I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question on the cost of the book, How Public Sector Advertising Works (309846). Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The total cost of producing the book was £70,000. Office (1) how much has been spent by the Central A separate printing cost is not available but is included in the Office of Information on news and public relations in Publishing cost which was £24,000. 2009-10; [309830] Death: Stroud (2) how much the Central Office of Information has spent on strategic consultancy in each year from Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 2004-05 to 2008-09; [309833] what the 10 most frequently recorded causes of death for (a) men, (b) women, (c) boys under the age of 18 (3) how much the Central Office of Information years and (d) girls under the age of 18 years in Stroud spent on public relations in each of the last five years; constituency were in each of the last 10 years. [309129] [309937] (4) how much the Central Office of Information Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls spent on (a) media and (b) non-media advertising in within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. each of the last five years. [309842] I have asked the authority to reply. Letter from Jil Matheson, dated December 2009: Tessa Jowell: I have asked the chief executive of the As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Central Office of Information to reply to the hon. recent question asking what the 10 most frequently recorded Member. causes of death for (a) men, (b) women, (c) boys under the age of 18 years and (d) girls under the age of 18 years in Stroud Letter from Mark Lund, dated 7 January 2010: constituency were in each of the last 10 years. (309129) As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information The tables attached present the 10 most frequently recorded (COI), I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary causes of death1, for (a) males aged 18 years and over (Table 1) Question on COI Turnover (309830,3,7,42). and (b) females aged 18 years and over (Table 2), in Stroud COI turnover figures for the areas requested for the previous parliamentary constituency, for the years 2001 to 2008 (the latest five years are published in our annual report and accounts. year available). Due to the small numbers of deaths of (c) boys under the age Copies of the COI Annual Report and Accounts are placed in of 18 years and (d) girls under the age of 18 years, equivalent the Library of the house and are also available from our website: information for frequently recorded causes of death could not be www.coi.gov.uk produced. Individual causes of death are coded by ONS using die Central Office of Information: Publications International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). The causes of death shown in the tables are groups of codes designed for the tabulation of deaths according to ‘main’ causes2. Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Equivalent information is not readily available for years before Office what the (a) total cost and (b) printing cost was 2001, when an earlier version of the International Classification of the Central Office of Information’s book, How of Diseases was in use. 1 Public Sector Advertising Works. [309846] In some years, more than 10 causes of death are presented where the numbers of deaths were the same as those for the 10th most frequent cause. Tessa Jowell: I have asked the chief executive of the 2 Griffiths, C, Rooney, C, and Brock. A. (2005) ’Leading causes of Central Office of Information to reply to the honourable death in England and Wales—how should we group causes?’ Member. Health Statistics Quarterly 28. 6-17.

Table 1: Most frequent causes of death classified according to the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10), males aged 18 years and over, Stroud parliamentary constituency, 2001-081, 2, 3 Years when this was a main cause of death for males Cause of death4 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 ICD-10 Codes

Aortic aneurysm and dissection — — — * — * — * 171 Cerebrovascular diseases * * ****** 160-169 Chronic lower respiratory diseases * * ****** J40-J47 Dementia and Alzheimer’s disease * * ******F01, F03, G30 Diabetes *——————— E10-E14 Heart failure and complications and * *—————— 150-151 ill-defined heart disease Influenza and pneumonia * * ****** J10-J18 Ischaemic heart diseases * * ****** 120-125 Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of colon, ********C18-C21 sigmoid, rectum and anus Malignant (cancer) neoplasm of ————*—*— C15 oesophagus Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of —— *————— C25 pancreas Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of ******** C61 prostate Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of ********C33-C34 trachea, bronchus and lung 869W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 870W

Table 1: Most frequent causes of death classified according to the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10), males aged 18 years and over, Stroud parliamentary constituency, 2001-081, 2, 3 Years when this was a main cause of death for males Cause of death4 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 ICD-10 Codes

Malignant neoplasms (cancer) of ********C81-C96 lymphoid, haematopoietic and related tissue Parkinson’s disease — * ———— *— G20 Suicide and injury/poisoning of ———— *———X60-X84, Y10- undetermined intent Y34 exc. Y33.9 1 Most frequent causes of death recorded as the underlying cause in male deaths registered in the year in question. These causes accounted for 65 per cent.ofall male deaths in Stroud parliamentary constituency between 2001 and 2008. 2 Cause of death in England and Wales is defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) for 2001 onwards. 3 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 4 The words in brackets have been added for clarity and are not part of the International Classification of Diseases.

Table 2: Most frequent causes of death classified according to the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10), females aged 18 years and over, Stroud parliamentary constituency, 2001 to 20081, 2, 3 Years when this was a main cause of death for females Cause of death4 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 ICD-10 Codes

Cerebrovascular diseases ******* * 160-169 Chronic lower respiratory diseases ******* * J40-J47 Dementia and Alzheimer’s disease ******* *F01, F03, G30 Diabetes *—————— — E10-E14 Diseases of the musculoskeletal — — — * — — — — M00-M99 system and connective tissue Diseases of the urinary system —————— * — N00-N39 Heart failure and complications — — * * * — — — 150-151 and ill-defined heart disease Influenza and pneumonia ******* * J10-J18 Intestinalinfectiousdiseases————— *— — A00-A09 Ischaemic heart diseases ******* * 120-125 Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of * * * — * * — * C18-C21 colon, sigmoid, rectum and anus Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of — *————— — C56 ovary Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of ——— *— * * — C25 pancreas Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of ******* *C33-C34 trachea, bronchus and lung Malignant neoplasm (cancer) of ——————— * C53-C55 uterus Malignant neoplasms (cancer) of ******* * C50 breast Malignant neoplasms (cancer) of *****—**C81-C96 lymphoid, haematopoietic and related tissue 1 Most frequent causes of death recorded as the underlying cause in female deaths registered in the year in question. These causes accounted for 62 per cent. of all female deaths in Stroud parliamentary constituency between 2001 and 2008. 2 Cause of death in England and Wales is defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) for 2001 onwards. 3 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 4 The words in brackets have been added for clarity and are not part of the International Classification of Diseases.

Death: Weather over a sustained period. The most severe heat wave of recent times occurred in August 2003. During July 2006, there were also several days when heat wave threshold temperatures were reached David T.C. Davies: To ask the Minister for the in one or more regions. Table 1 provides the number of excess Cabinet Office how many people have died from deaths during these hot periods. injuries and illnesses related to (a) cold and (b) hot Estimates of excess winter deaths are calculated annually, and weather in each of the last five years. [310484] are based on the difference between the number of deaths during the four winter months (December to March) and the average Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls number of deaths during the preceding four months (August to November) and the following four months (April to July). It is within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. not possible to say whether these deaths were cold-related. Table 2 I have asked the authority to reply. provides the number of excess winter deaths that occurred in Letter from Steve Penneck, dated January 2010: England and Wales from 2004-05 to 2008-09 (the latest figures available). As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Table 1: Excess mortality during periods when temperatures were above the heat asking how many people have died from injuries and illnesses wave threshold in one or more regions, England and Wales, 2003-081,2,3,4,5 related to (a) cold and (b) hot weather in each of the last five Percentage increase in years. (310484) Number of excess mortality above baseline Dates deaths (persons) (percentage) There are no official definitions of ’heat-related’ and ’cold-related’ deaths. Estimates of the excess deaths during a summer heat wave 4 to 13 August 20031, 2 2,139 16 are calculated only when temperatures remain abnormally high 1 to 7 July 20063, 4 No excess 0 871W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 872W

Table 1: Excess mortality during periods when temperatures were above the heat Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls 1,2,3,4,5 wave threshold in one or more regions, England and Wales, 2003-08 within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Percentage increase in Number of excess mortality above baseline I have asked the authority to reply. Dates deaths (persons) (percentage) Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2010: 16 to 28 July 20063, 4 680 4 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I 1 Final data based on deaths occurring each day in this period. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question 2 Excess mortality was calculated as observed daily deaths in 2003 minus the asking what account the 2008-based population projections issued baseline (average 1998 to 2002) expected mortality over the same time period. 3 Estimated data based on deaths occurring each day in this period. by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on 21 October 2009 4 Excess mortality was calculated as observed daily deaths in 2006 minus took of recent trends of reductions in (a) net migration and (b) baseline (average 2001 to 2005) expected mortality over the same time period. net migration from the A8 EU member states [310514]. 5 Figures for England and Wales include deaths of non-residents. The 2008-based national population projections assume future Table 2: Excess winter deaths, England and Wales, 2004-05 to 2008-091,2,3,4 net migration to the UK of +180,000 a year from mid-2014 Excess winter deaths onwards, with slightly higher net migration assumed for the first (persons) EWD Index5 few years of the projection period. These assumptions of future net migration are based on past trends in net long-term international 2004-05 31,640 19.5 migration to the UK and are calculated using a standard methodology 2005-06 25,270 15.8 first introduced for the 1991-based projections see national population 2006-07 23,740 15.0 projections reference volume available at: 2007-08 24,690 15.6 http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=4611 2008-09 36,700 23.8 The assumptions for the 2008-based projections are based 1 Estimates of excess winter deaths are based on the difference between the number of deaths during the four winter months (December to March) and the upon final estimates of long-term international migration up to average number of deaths during the preceding four months (August to November) the end of 2007, plus provisional International Passenger Survey and the following four months (April to July). (IPS) estimates of long-term international migration for the year 2 Figures are based on deaths occurring in each month. ending December 2008. Thus the calculation of the assumptions 3 Figures for 2004-05 to 2007-08 are final, figures for 2008-09 are provisional. took into account the decline in long-term international net Final figures are rounded to the nearest 10, provisional figures are rounded to migration indicated by the provisional IPS estimates published by the nearest 100. 4 Figures for England and Wales include deaths of non-residents. ONS on 27 August 2009. 5 The excess winter mortality index is calculated as the excess winter deaths With regard to net migration from the A8 EU member states, divided by the average non-winter deaths, expressed as a percentage. the 2008-based projections assume annual net migration from Departmental Buildings these countries (plus Bulgaria and Romania) declining from +25,000 for 2009-10 to zero for 2014-15 onwards. Again, the Mr. Baron: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office calculation of these assumptions took into account the decline in long-term international net migration from the A8 EU member how much was spent on works and refurbishment to states indicated by the provisional IPS estimates published by offices allocated to the Prime Minister in the last ONS on 27 August 2009. 12 months. [305694]

Angela E. Smith: Cost on the works and refurbishment Valuation Office: Training to offices allocated to the Prime Minister in the last 12 months will be available only when the Department’s resource accounts have been fully audited and laid Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for the before Parliament. Cabinet Office with reference to the answer of 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 55W, on the Valuation Sarah Teather: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office: training, if she will place in the Library a copy Office what the (a) area and (b) estimated value is of of each document for the Staff Inspection Techniques (i) vacant and (ii) occupied office space (A) owned and training course provided by the National School of [310535] (B) rented by her Department. Government to the Valuation Office Agency. [309393] Angela E. Smith: Other than one building of 826m2 which is vacant pending disposal, and 85m2 of office Tessa Jowell: This is a matter for the National School space at the Emergency Planning College (EPC) in of Government. I have asked the principal and chief Easingwold, Yorkshire, the Cabinet Office is not responsible executive to assist by writing to you. for any vacant freehold office space. The agreed sale Letter from Rod Clark, dated January 2010: price of the building being disposed of is £5.37 million. The 85m2 of office space at the EPC is an integral part In the Written Ministerial Statement to the House on 9 January of the EPC estate and is not valued separately. The 2007 (Official Report Col 5WS), the then Parliamentary Secretary Cabinet Office is responsible for 1,287m2 of vacant for the Cabinet Office (Pat McFadden MP) announced that the National School of Government was now a Non Ministerial leased office space and the annual rent for this space is Department. Consequently, the Minister for the Cabinet Office £620,000. The vacant space is being marketed towards has asked me to reply to your Parliamentary Questions about the achieving a disposal. National School of Government. Population The National School operates in a commercial environment with a business model which requires the full operating costs of the department to be recovered from the products and services Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet provided to clients and customers. The publication of the information Office what account the 2008 population projections requested could prejudice the ability of the department to meet its issued by the Office for National Statistics on financial target. I have, therefore, concluded that it would not be 21 October 2009 took of recent trends of reductions in helpful to place a copy of the materials in the Library of the (a) net migration and (b) net migration from the A8 House. EU member states. [310514] I will, however, send this information to you. 873W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 874W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE have a number of potential options and we will be ready to take further action if we believe it is both necessary Boilers: Scotland and in the customers’ interests. Recognising that energy is an essential commodity to Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for vulnerable customers the Government negotiated the Energy and Climate Change what discussions his current voluntary agreement with suppliers to address Department has had with the Scottish Executive on the the prices aspect of fuel poverty. The voluntary agreement possible extension to Scotland of the boiler scrappage comes to an end in March 2011 however, and we have scheme. [310377] included powers in the recently introduced Energy Bill to enable us to put social price support on to a statutory Joan Ruddock: The Department informed the Scottish footing, building on the success of these voluntary Executive of its intention to operate a boiler scrappage arrangements. As announced in the Pre Budget Report, scheme in England. As the scheme is an energy efficiency the Government will require energy suppliers to make measure it is a devolved matter and it is for the Scottish available £300 million per annum by 2013-14 .This is Executive to take a decision on whether to operate a double what energy suppliers have agreed to provide in similar scheme in Scotland. the final year of the voluntary agreement and will mean being able to help more of the vulnerable households Energy Efficiency Schemes: Scotland with their energy bills. The Government are also actively promoting energy Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for efficiency measures, as outlined in the Low Carbon Energy and Climate Change if he will discuss with the Transition Plan: Scottish Executive the location of the test hubs referred http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/publications/ to in the UK Low Carbon Transition Plan. [310546] lc_trans_plan/lc_trans_plan.aspx Joan Ruddock: The Department of Energy and Climate Fuel Poverty Change has discussed the location of the test hubs referred to in the UK Low Carbon Transition Plan with the Scottish Executive. The Scottish Executive decided, Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy in this case, that the test hubs should not be located in and Climate Change what steps his Department has Scotland. taken to eradicate fuel poverty in 2009; what steps he plans to take in the first six months of 2010; and if he Energy: Prices will make a statement. [308167]

Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Kidney: The Government have a strong package and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made of measures to help reduce fuel poverty among households. of the level of the average household (a) gas and (b) This is centred on tackling the three root causes of fuel electricity bill; what the average bill was in each case in poverty: 1997; and if he will make a statement. [308165] Reducing the demand for energy by improving home energy efficiency through schemes such as Warm Front, Carbon Emissions Mr. Kidney: The Department’s latest estimates for Reduction Target, Community Energy Saving Programme and the Decent Homes Standard. the average annual domestic energy bills and provisional estimates for the year to 2009 and are published in Ensuring competitive energy prices through a robust system of ‘Quarterly Energy Prices’, published in December 2009: regulation aimed to protect all consumers. Raising real incomes, including through winter fuel payments http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ and cold weather payments alongside the wider tax and benefit prices/prices.aspx system and through benefit entitlement checks under the Warm For an average consumer using 18,000 kWh of gas Front scheme. per year and paying their bills on receipt (standard More specifically, during 2009, the Government have: credit), the average bill for gas in Great Britain was Increased the grant limits for eligible households under the £328 in 1997 and £717 in 2009. Adjusting for the effects Warm Front scheme to £3,500 (or £6,000 where oil or new low of inflation, in real terms equivalent bills were £349 in carbon technology is recommended). 1997 and £574 in 2009 relative to prices in 2000. Launched the £350 million Community Energy Saving Programme For an average consumer using 3,300 kWh of electricity to improve household energy efficiency and permanently lower per year and paying their bills on receipt (standard fuel bills in areas of low income, where households are likely to credit), the average bill for electricity in the UK was have a greater than average propensity to be in fuel poverty. £285 in 1997 and £461 in 2009. Adjusting for the effects Made changes to the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target so of inflation, in real terms equivalent bills were £303 in that from August 2009 an estimated £1.9 billion will be directed 1997 and £369 in 2009 relative to prices in 2000. among the priority group of low income and elderly households up to 2011. UK domestic gas and electricity prices are the lowest In 2010 the Government shall: and the fourth lowest in the EU15 respectively, with latest figures for the period January to June 2009. From April, increase the funding for the Warm Front scheme by £150 million to £345 million bringing the total funding to Competitive energy markets are a key element of our just over £1.1 billion for the current spending period. energy policy. We think that companies competing for Continue to promote legislation to implement mandated social consumers is the most effective way of driving down price support schemes once the current voluntary agreement energy prices. However, we are in close contact with the with suppliers comes to an end in 2011. These schemes will regulator and are monitoring retail energy markets provide more of the most vulnerable consumers with help closely. Government and the regulator between them towards their energy costs. 875W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 876W

Explore how best to provide help to the most vulnerable Explore how best to provide help to the most vulnerable households within the Priority Group under the Carbon Emissions households within the Priority Group under the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target for the proposed extension from April 2011 to Reduction Target for the proposed extension from April 2011 December 2012. A consultation was launched on 21 December to December 2012. A consultation was launched on 21 December 2009. 2009 The Government, through their fuel poverty review, The Government, through their fuel poverty review, will continue to build and strengthen the evidence base will continue to build and strengthen the evidence base on fuel poverty and explore better ways of targeting on fuel poverty and explore better ways of targeting help at the most vulnerable fuel poor households. help at the most vulnerable fuel poor households. The Government’s new Strategy for Household Energy The Government’s new Strategy for Household Energy Management, building on the Heat and Energy Saving Management, building on the Heat and Energy Saving Strategy consultation in February 2009, will set out the Strategy consultation in February 2009, will set out the Government’s plans for delivering and financing household Government’s plans for delivering and financing household energy management to all households, including the energy management to all households, including the most vulnerable. most vulnerable. Furthermore the Government want all households to Furthermore the Government wants all households play a part in generating renewable energy. Although to play a part in generating renewable energy. Although feed-in tariffs and the Renewable Heat Incentive will feed-in tariffs and the Renewable Heat Incentive will make payments over the life of installations, low-income make payments over the life of installations, low-income households may still find it difficult to meet upfront households may still find it difficult to meet upfront costs. Building on the experience of Pay as You Save costs. Building on the experience of Pay as You Save pilot project, the Government announced in the pre-budget pilot project, the Government announced in the pre-budget report, that we will consult on measures to help low-income report, that we will consult on measures to help low-income households take advantage of these clean energy cash-back households take advantage of these clean energy cash-back schemes. schemes. Fuel Poverty: Leeds Government Departments: Carbon Emissions Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department is taking to reduce the level of fuel poverty Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for in Leeds North West constituency. [309390] Energy and Climate Change what amount of carbon dioxide emissions arose from Government operations Mr. Kidney: The Government have a strong package in (a) 2000 and (b) the most recent year for which of measures to help reduce fuel poverty among households. figures are available. [303520] This is centred on tackling the three root causes of fuel poverty: Ian Pearson: I have been asked to reply. Reducing the demand for energy by improving home energy Government are committed to achieving a reduction efficiency through schemes such as Warm Front, Carbon Emissions Reduction Target, Community Energy Saving programme and in carbon dioxide emissions from its estate of 12.5 per the Decent Homes Standard; cent. and from administrative road travel by 15 per cent. Ensuring competitive energy prices through a robust system of both by 2010-11. Progress against these targets is reported regulation aimed to protect all consumers; and annually in the Sustainable Development in Government Raising real incomes, including through winter fuel payments report. and cold weather payments alongside the wider tax and benefit The latest assessment of performance, published in system and through benefit entitlement checks under the Warm December 2009 shows that emissions from the office Front scheme. estate in 2008-09 were 2,593,725 tonnes of CO2, representing More specifically, during 2009, the Government have: a reduction of 10 per cent. against the 1999-2000 baseline Increased the grant limits for eligible households under the year. Emissions from administrative road vehicles are Warm Front scheme to £3,500 (or £6,000 where oil or new low baselined against a 2005-06 year, and at 2008-09 were carbon technology is recommended) 149,269 tonnes, representing a reduction of 17 per cent. Launched the £350 million Community Energy Saving programme to improve household energy efficiency and permanently lower This information was published on the 18 December fuel bills in areas of low income, where households are likely to 2009, and is available on the OGC website: have a greater than average propensity to be in fuel poverty http://www.ogc.gov.uk/sustainability_programme _progress.asp Made changes to the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target so Information on reporting years prior to 2008-09 was that from August 2009 an estimated £1.9 billion will be directed collated and published by the Sustainable Development amongst the priority group of low income and elderly households Commission (SDC) can be found on the SDC website: up to 2011. In 2010 the Government shall: http://www.sd-commission.org.uk From April, increase the funding for the Warm Front scheme by £150 million to £345 million bringing the total funding to Housing: Energy just over £1.1 billion for the current spending period. The scheme assisted 309 homes in 2008-09 in the Leeds North West constituency in the last year alone. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions Continue to promote legislation to implement mandated social price support schemes once the current voluntary agreement (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Department have with suppliers comes to an end in 2011. These schemes will had with house builders on inclusion of (i) solar water provide more of the most vulnerable consumers with help heating and (ii) photovoltaic electricity generation towards their energy costs. technology in new build homes. [306339] 877W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 878W

Joan Ruddock: The Communities and Local Government and (c) heating and insulation were approved in (i) Department (CLG) has announced a policy that all new Southend and (ii) England and Wales in each of the homes will be zero carbon from 2016, with interim last two years. [308166] changes to the building regulations in 2010 and 2013. The Minister of State for Housing and Planning and Mr. Kidney: The following tables show the number of the Minister of State for Energy and Climate Change households that received (a) heating, (b) insulation participate in the 2016 Task Force which brings together and (c) heating and insulation in (i) Southend and (ii) senior representatives of industry and other stakeholders England under the Warm Front scheme in each of the to oversee the progress of the zero carbon homes policy. last two complete years. For convenience, the tables also House builders via the Home Builders Federation are include the number of households assisted in this year represented on that body. to date. CLG is providing financial support to the Zero Carbon (i) Southend Hub, an industry-led body which is leading on the 2009-10 to date practical delivery of the policy. The Hub has established 2007-08 2008-09 (31 December) a number of task groups which bring together relevant (a) Heating only 437 506 464 stakeholders including house builders. Government (b) Insulation only 757 872 1,038 observers on this group includes officials from this (c) Both 439 506 434 department who are therefore engaging with the relevant stakeholders on an ongoing basis. (ii) England 2009-10 to date CLG has been consulting on the proposed changes to 2007-08 2008-09 (31 December) Part L of the Building Regulations for 2010. This process has resulted in engagement with house builders (a) Heating only 92,894 96,540 70,050 throughout the consultation. As part of that process (b) Insulation only 66,135 59,373 42,479 officials have discussed the range of renewable technologies (c) Both 18,056 24,081 24,472 for deployment in new build including solar thermal Fuel poverty is a devolved matter, as such, the Warm and solar photovoltaic technologies. Front scheme operates in England only and is not active Power Stations: Blythe Bridge in Wales. Warm Front Scheme: Leeds Mr. Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will initiate a public inquiry into the proposed Blythe Bridge power station. [309863] Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households in Mr. Kidney: We have yet to receive the views of the Leeds North West constituency received assistance relevant planning authorities, Staffordshire Moorlands under the Warm Front scheme in 2008-09. [309389] district council and Staffordshire county council. Should either of them object then a public inquiry is mandatory Mr. Kidney: The Warm Front scheme assisted 309 under schedule 8 to the Electricity Act 1989. Even if households in Leeds, North West during scheme year neither council objects, the Secretary of State has the 2008-09. discretion to hold a public inquiry into the application in light of other representations he receives. The hon. Member will be informed of his decision, including whether or not a public inquiry will be held, in due COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT course. Affordable Housing Renewable Energy Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Communities and Local Government what work the and Climate Change what research he has undertaken Audit Commission is undertaking on behalf of the into the willingness of people to accept (a) wind Tenant Services Authority in relation to inspections of turbines and (b) other renewable energy projects in social housing. [308270] their local areas. [309761] Barbara Follett: This is an operational matter for the Mr. Kidney: The Government conduct a Renewable Audit Commission, and I will ask the Chief Executive Energy Awareness and Attitudes Research survey each of the Audit Commission to write to the hon. Member year and publishes the results on the DECC website. In direct. the 2009 survey, support for renewable energy remained Letter from Steve Bundred, dated 12 January 2010: high with over eight in 10 respondents interviewed Your Parliamentary question outlined above has been passed saying they would support it, and 62 per cent. saying to me to reply. they would be happy to live within 5 km of a wind Since the Tenant Services Authority (TSA) was established on power development. 1 December 2008, the Audit Commission has undertaken the Warm Front Scheme following inspections of registered social landlords requested by the Authority: Twenty one full inspections, covering all tenant services, are Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy now completed and are published on the Audit Commission and Climate Change how many applications to the website http://www.audit-commission.govuk. A list is attached Warm Front Scheme for (a) heating, (b) insulation for ease of reference. 879W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 880W

Fifteen focused inspections, covering a limited number of Twelve focused inspections, to be undertaken at short notice, tenant services that are undertaken at short notice, completed and are programmed for completion by March 2010. published, covering judgements for both current services and prospects for improvement. Five full service inspections of Registered Social Landlords are Eighteen focused inspections, covering a limited number of programmed for 2010/11, as will be a number of focused inspections, tenant services, undertaken at short notice, completed and published the numbers of which are yet to be determined. in respect of judgements of the current services. Judgements for From April 2010 (subject to Parliamentary approval) the TSA future prospects of service improvement, following local consultation will also be responsible for commissioning inspections of local between tenants and their landlord, will be published in due authority landlord services from the Audit Commission. course. Six further full inspections are in progress or programmed for A copy of this letter will be placed in Hansard. completion by March 2010.

How good is the What are the prospects Organisation Inspection title service? for improvement Month published Month on site

North Somerset Housing Housing Management Fair Promising December 2008 October 2008 Services Eastend Homes Housing Management Good Promising December 2008 October 2008 Services Lee Housing Association Housing Management Poor Promising December 2008 Jun-08 Services Green Vale Homes Housing Management Fair Promising January 2009 October 2008 Services Victory Housing Housing Management Fair Promising January 2009 October 2008 Services Community Gateway Housing Management Good Promising February 2009 July 2008 Association Services Drum Housing Housing Management Fair Promising Apr-09 January 2009 Association Services Freebridge Community Housing Management Fair Promising Apr-09 January 2009 Housing Services Clapham Park Homes Housing Management Fair Uncertain Apr-09 January 2009 Services Adacutus Housing Housing Management Fair Promising Apr-09 February 2009 Association Service Manchester and District Housing Management Good Excellent May 2009 February 2009 Housing Association Service NomadE5 Housing Housing Management Fair Excellent May 2009 February 2009 Association Service Tor Homes Housing Management Fair Promising June 2009 March 2009 Services Kingfisher Housing Housing Management Fair Promising June 2009 March 2009 Association Services Leeds Federated Housing Housing Management Fair Promising July 2009 March 2009 Association Services Re-inspection Herefordshire Housing Housing Management Good Excellent August 2009 May 2009 Services Re-inspection Cheshire Peaks and Housing Management Good Excellent August 2009 June 2009 Plains Housing Trust Services Accent Peerless Housing Management Fair Promising September 2009 Jun-09 Services Vale of Aylesbury Housing Management Fair Promising September 2009 June 2009 Housing Trust Services Riverside Carlisle Housing Management Fair Promising October 2009 June 2009 Services Merlin Housing Society Housing Management Poor Uncertain October 2009 June 2009 Services

Building Regulations: Water Building Regulations. On 3 September 2009 we received correspondence from the European Commission. This “detailed opinion” contained representations on elements Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for of the technical guidance and extended the standstill Communities and Local Government for what reason period, in which it is not possible to bring into force the revisions to Part G of the Building Regulations did “regulations” (which covers the guidance in the Approved not take effect on 1 October 2009; and what recent Documents for the purposes of the Building Regulations), representations his Department has received from the until 2 December 2009. It was necessary, therefore, to European Commission on those regulations. [309031] delay the coming into force of the legislative changes to Part G until the next common commencement date of Mr. Ian Austin: It was necessary, under the Technical 6 April 2010. Standards Directive, to submit to the European Commission the guidance in the draft Approved Document that was intended to accompany the changes to Part G of the 881W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 882W

Community Infrastructure Levy whether he plans to change the powers of bailiffs in relation to council tax collection; and what changes to Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for bailiffs’ powers and the level of fines there would be Communities and Local Government if he will make it under the proposed new system. [308392] his policy to allow the payment of community infrastructure levy payments in instalments. [309034] Barbara Follett: Further to my answer to the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) of Mr. Ian Austin: The Government consulted on draft November 2 2009, Official Report, column 758W, no regulations for the implementation of the Community decision has been taken yet about whether to extend the Infrastructure Levy (CIL) over the summer. Although council tax enforcement regime in this way. no provision was included for the payment of CIL in With regard to bailiff powers more generally, the instalments, views were invited on whether regulations Ministry of Justice has completed an extensive review should provide for this and if so how. The consultation of these which culminated in the enforcement provisions ended on 23 October 2009 and consultation responses contained in the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement are now being analysed. Further announcements on Act 2007. The Ministry of Justice will be producing a CIL will be made shortly. consultation paper which sets out a package of measures Community Relations: Finance designed to address the concerns that have been raised about the behaviour of bailiffs; the fees they charge and Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State proposals for the regulation of the industry. It will also for Communities and Local Government with set out draft regulations on seizure of goods. The Ministry reference to his Department’s press release of of Justice intends to commence this consultation exercise 14 October 2009, on Connecting communities, whether with a view to implementing the changes in April 2012. an assessment was made by his Department of the political results of recent local elections when Council Housing: Finance allocating the funding to chosen wards. [308005] Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Malik: Wards were identified by examining a for Communities and Local Government what his range of hard and soft data around cohesion, deprivation Department’s policy is on the write off of local and crime, perceived unfairness in the allocation of authority housing debt. [307946] resources and feedback from people working locally. The results of local elections were not assessed as part Mr. Ian Austin: We set out our plans to reform of this process. council housing finance in a consultation paper on Council Housing 21 July 2009. Councillors: Codes of Practice Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with reference to Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for the answer to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield of Communities and Local Government how many 4 November 2009, Official Report, column 1060W, on allegations of breaches of the Code of Conduct by a council housing, what the size of the local authority councillor were referred to the Standards Board in each housing stock was in each year since 1997. [307994] of the last five years; and how many such cases resulted Mr. Ian Austin: Local authority stock for each year in a penalty or other sanction in each such year. since 1997 is given in the following table. The figure for [308423] 2008-09 is subject to audit. Ms Rosie Winterton: The number of complaints referred to the Standards Board for England in each of the last Financial year Total stock five years are as follows: 1997-98 3,440,988 1998-99 3,318,035 Number 1999-2000 3,185,869 2004-2005 3,861 2000-01 3,016,722 2005-2006 3,836 2001-02 2,811,959 2006-2007 3,549 2002-03 2,699,147 2007-2008 3,547 2003-04 2,453,864 2008-2009 177 2004-05 2,332,522 2005-06 2,162,330 The figure for 2008-09 reflects the introduction of the 2006-07 2,073,575 new locally based conduct regime from May 2008 in 2007-08 1,925,970 which, as recommended by the Commission for Standards 2008-09 1,852,992 in Public Life, all but the most serious allegations of misconduct are handled by individual council’s standards Council Housing: Debt Collection committees. The Standards Board has no sanctioning power, but Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for where, after investigation, it considers a complaint referred Communities and Local Government with reference to to it might warrant some sanction, it reports the matter the answer to the hon. Member for Bromley and to either the council’s standards committee or the Chislehurst of 2 November 2009, Official Report, Adjudication Panel for England, who then determine column 758W, on council tax: debt collection, whether whether there has been a breach of the code and if so he plans to publish a consultation paper on this matter; what sanction to apply. 883W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 884W

The number of cases referred to councils standards Departmental Responsibilities committees or the Adjudication Panel for England were: Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the cost of the proposed new innovation 2004-2005 189 commissioning unit in his Department; and what its 2005-2006 160 role will be in relation to that of regional improvement 2006-2007 21 and efficiency partnerships. [309004] 2007-2008 23 2008-2009 18 Ms Rosie Winterton: The Secretary of State’s priorities on innovation are being delivered flexibly from within existing administrative resources and costs are not recorded Departmental Information Officers separately. This work engages with, but does not duplicate, the work of Regional Improvement and Efficiency Partnerships. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Fire Services Communities and Local Government how many (a) press officers and (b) communications staff were Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for employed by his Department (i) in each of the last five Communities and Local Government what steps his years and (ii) on the latest date for which figures are Department is taking to increase the number of available; and what the cost of employing these staff retained firefighters. [309701] was in each such year. [309925] Mr. Malik: Each fire and rescue authority is responsible for assessing, through its Integrated Risk Management Barbara Follett: To find the numbers of communications Planning process, the number of firefighters on both staff employed by the Department for Communities wholetime and retained duty systems required to provide and Local Government in 2008-09, I refer the hon. an effective fire and rescue service in its area. The Member to its annual report. The cost of employing Government are aware that, due to the nature of the these was £3,659,986. retained duty system (RDS), which requires staff to live For costs in previous years, I refer the hon. Member or work in close proximity to the fire station, a number to the answer given to the hon. Member for Falmouth of fire and rescue authorities find it difficult to recruit and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) on 17 July 2008, sufficient numbers of RDS staff. Official Report, column 578W. We do not hold the Communities and Local Government has resourced information on numbers in previous years in the format a number of initiatives to support fire and rescue authorities requested, and this could be provided only at in their efforts to recruit RDS staff. Most recent among disproportionate cost. these initiatives has been the development, following national research, of a suite of information literature, in the form of a toolkit, for fire and rescue services to use Departmental Public Expenditure in establishing and building links with local businesses to encourage them to support their staff in becoming Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for RDS firefighters. The Employers’ Information Toolkit Communities and Local Government what his is designed to be flexible so that it can be tailored Department’s original expenditure provision was for specifically to suit local need. To complement the Toolkit, 2009-10; what the most recently updated provision is; and as a further support to local communication strategies and how much has been spent under (a) Request for directed at the business community, CLG has also produced a radio advertisement which fire and rescue Resources 1 and (b) Request for Resources 2. [309841] services can use locally. Barbara Follett: The Department’s original, and revised, Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for expenditure provision for 2009-10 are set out in the Communities and Local Government how many Main Estimates (published 16 June 2009—HC514) and full-time firefighters were employed by each fire and the Winter Supplementary Estimates (published rescue authority on 31 March (a) 1998, (b) 2001, (c) 24 November 2009—HC24) respectively. 2005 and (d) 2008. [309702] November is the most recent month for which complete Mr. Malik: The number of full-time fire-fighters figures for 2009-10 expenditure are available. 2009-10 employed in fire and rescue services by each fire and expenditure to the end of November under (a) Request rescue authority on 31 March (a) 1998, (b) 2001, (c) for Resources 1 was £10,513.5 million and (b) Request 2005 and (d) 2008 are shown in the following table. for Resources 2 was £18,142.0 million. These figures are Please note that data for 1998 was only available as at subject to audit. 1 January.

Fire and rescue service fire-fighters in post (full-time equivalent and in 24-hour units of cover) by authority at 31 March 1998, 2001, 2005 and 2008 19981 2001 2005 2008 Whole-time2 Retained3 Whole-time2 Retained3 Whole-time2 Retained3 Whole-time2 Retained3

England 31,906 12,964 31,623 10,633 31,097 10,785 30,581 11,747

Avon 656 211 667 160 669 186 660 165 Bedfordshire and Luton 308 136 330 115 323 122 330 136 885W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 886W

Fire and rescue service fire-fighters in post (full-time equivalent and in 24-hour units of cover) by authority at 31 March 1998, 2001, 2005 and 2008 19981 2001 2005 2008 Whole-time2 Retained3 Whole-time2 Retained3 Whole-time2 Retained3 Whole-time2 Retained3

Buckinghamshire 300 201 292 152 349 137 367 194 Cambridgeshire 264 341 276 295 273 323 277 297 Cheshire 621 194 631 146 602 146 586 172 Cleveland 604 86 601 62 563 72 542 72 Cornwall 183 401 185 407 201 403 190 403 County Durham and 405 158 405 119 385 144 387 147 Cumbria 283 432 274 370 274 426 252 452 Derbyshire 481 378 465 231 475 206 444 204 Devon 551 722 570 648 562 763 — — Devon and Somerset4 — — — — — — 721 1,131 Dorset 291 361 300 288 302 313 300 312 East Sussex 432 235 425 201 434 190 428 206 Essex 903 452 936 373 925 290 943 438 Gloucestershire 225 277 232 257 230 278 234 252 Greater Manchester 2,150 48 2,090 26 2,028 22 1,943 16 Hampshire 764 689 784 546 790 576 825 614 Hereford and Worcester 355 347 355 294 319 285 342 315 Hertfordshire 572 256 565 212 560 208 574 203 Humberside 709 293 725 276 710 289 726 282 Isle of Wight 60 159 61 152 63 152 59 148 Isles of Scilly 7 33 9 34 10 40 11 39 Kent 947 752 944 494 893 487 900 667 Lancashire 987 440 1,010 285 957 300 896 317 Leicestershire 490 233 498 144 474 n/a 481 147 Lincolnshire 187 401 189 413 195 420 230 433 London 5,909 0 5,693 0 5,924 0 5,910 0 Merseyside 1,481 0 1,369 0 1,249 n/a 1,044 185 Norfolk 277 447 310 424 281 469 302 497 North Yorkshire 354 375 352 331 358 329 320 334 Northamptonshire 280 223 296 182 298 211 276 196 Northumberland 202 176 206 152 193 164 190 160 Nottinghamshire 568 323 581 202 542 189 576 206 Oxfordshire 215 278 230 237 237 256 249 287 Royal Berkshire 423 165 406 122 422 n/a 437 100 Shropshire 199 288 200 249 208 272 214 292 Somerset 171 380 179 351 184 342 — — South Yorkshire 916 72 920 39 878 32 834 60 Staffordshire 487 352 473 304 447 337 446 313 Suffolk 262 431 247 352 256 362 259 396 Surrey 726 140 713 103 673 105 650 76 Tyne and Wear 1,023 21 1,010 18 945 18 912 14 Warwickshire 310 182 286 149 276 145 275 133 West Midlands 2,044 13 2,031 8 1,944 11 1,937 7 West Sussex 392 339 397 272 394 292 376 282 West Yorkshire 1,723 174 1,683 166 1,602 159 1,501 149 Wiltshire 209 349 222 272 220 314 225 298 1 Strength figures as at 1 January 1998. 2 Including all whole-time shift systems in full-time equivalents. 3 In 24 hour units of cover. 4 With effect from 1 April 2007, Devon fire and rescue service and Somerset fire and rescue service merged to become Devon and Somerset fire and rescue service.

Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for for their firefighting resources. It is also their responsibility Communities and Local Government what assessment to undertake any necessary assessments of their crewing his Department has made of the effectiveness of (a) arrangements, based on their integrated risk management primary crewing and (b) dual or mixed crewing for plan (IRMP) which reflects local need and sets out aerial platform fire-fighting appliances. [309703] plans to tackle both existing and potential risks to communities. The IRMP enables the authority to tailor cover for fire and other incidents to local circumstances, Mr. Malik: The Department has not undertaken any evaluating where risk is greatest and allocating assessment of the effectiveness of primary crewing or resources accordingly. Fire and rescue authorities are duel or mixed crewing for aerial platform fire-fighting required to undertake consultation on their IRMP with appliances. The Audit Commission assesses fire and their communities and other interested parties such as rescue authorities’ use of resources as part of their adjacent fire and rescue authorities prior to its comprehensive area assessment. It is for fire and rescue implementation. authorities to decide the location and crewing arrangements 887W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 888W

Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for around 2070. The final TE2100 plan, which will direct Communities and Local Government what steps his future tidal flood risk management in the estuary, will Department is taking to improve training for be submitted to the Department for the Environment, firefighters for dealing with (a) flooding incidents, (b) Food and Rural Affairs in the spring. urban search and rescue calls, (c) water rescues and All local planning authorities have to undertake their (d) terrorist incidents. [309704] own strategic flood risk assessment to inform their development planning process as detailed in Planning Mr. Malik: The Department’s new dimensions project Policy Statement 25 (PPS25). PPS25 also requires that has provided the fire and rescue service (FRS) with planning applications for new developments located enhanced capabilities for high volume pumping, urban within flood risk areas are supported by a flood risk search and rescue, and mass decontamination of the assessment, to assess the risk of flooding from all public, to respond to incidents on the largest scale, both sources, and demonstrate how the development can terrorist-related and natural events such as flooding. manage those risks so it is safe. The sector-led National Resilience Authority, funded The Government’s position on flood risk and the by the Department, provides operational assurance that effect on the availability of insurance is set out in a joint the capabilities remain fit for purpose for the long term, Government and Association of British Insurers (ABI) and this includes a strong focus on training, including statement published in July 2008. ABI have also said development and central purchasing of training on that their members will insure buildings that comply behalf of the FRS. The Department also directly funds with PPS25. fire and rescue authorities (£4.9 million in 2009-10) in recognition of local training costs for new dimensions. Home Information Packs Ultimately, it is for each authority to ensure that its personnel are trained for the roles they carry out. Supporting this, the Department, working with the sector, has Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State produced an FRS operational assessment toolkit which for Communities and Local Government with covers training, including the requirement for civil resilience reference to the answer of 15 June 2009, Official training. A sector qualifications strategy under development Report, column 32W, on Departmental building, by Skills 4 Justice will develop a fire and rescue water whether his Department has issued guidance on the safety qualification. maximum duration of validity of a local authority search within a home information pack before which it Flood Control is deemed to be out of date; and what responsibilities (a) estate agents and (b) sellers have to update the Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for searches in the case of material changes. [307220] Communities and Local Government when he expects the final guidance on good practice will be published in Mr. Ian Austin: There is no requirement for sellers to accordance with recommendation 41 of the Pitt renew the searches in a Home Information Pack as long Report. [305071] as the property remains on the market.

Tessa Jowell: I have been asked to reply. Housing and Planning Delivery Grant In line with our commitment in the Government’s response to Sir Michael Pitt’s Review, in August 2009 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for we published final guidance on good practice in relation Communities and Local Government how much to the management and co-ordination of local operations, funding has been allocated to the (a) Housing and as part of revised Emergency Response and Recovery Planning Delivery Grant and (b) Local Authority Guidance (section 4.1). Business Growth Incentive Scheme for (i) 2010-11 and Floods: Thames Gateway (ii) 2011-12. [308269] Barbara Follett: In the Housing and Planning Delivery Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Grant (HPDG) consultation of 2009 we announced Communities and Local Government what recent that, given the changed economic circumstances, we assessment his Department has made of (a) the level had taken the opportunity to review the position and of flood risk in the Thames Gateway and (b) the make some hard choices about our priorities. In conclusion, effects on the availability of insurance policies for new we have scaled back the increase in HPDG by £25 million build dwellings in that area of flood risk. [309010] in year two (2009-10) and £50 million in year three (2010-11) to reflect the decline in housing completions Mr. Malik: The Environment Agency has recently and the lower number of plans being submitted. The finished consultation on its Thames Estuary 2100 (TE2100) baseline of HPDG is still increasing significantly so the Plan, which assesses increasing tidal flood risk in the effect of this change is that HPDG funding will increase Thames estuary floodplain over the century, and from £100 million in year one (2008-09) to £200 million recommends actions to manage the increasing risk over in year three (2010-11). We will continue to keep these that time. The Environment Agency findings show that issues under review. the standard of protection provided by the tidal defences, is higher than previously anticipated. Under current No decision has been taken yet about Local Authority climate change guidance the main estuary defences, Business Growth Incentive (LABGI) scheme allocations maintained and renewed when necessary, will continue for 2010-11. to protect estuary communities against tidal surges, that Budgets for 2011-12 will be considered as part of the on average may only occur once in a 1,000 years, up to next spending review. 889W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 890W

Housing Revenue Accounts Mr. Ian Austin: In February 1997, the Department issued guidance to social landlords on how to comply Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for with two sets of directions issued at that time. Communities and Local Government what recent The Social Landlords Discretionary Reduction of estimate he has made of the likely effect of the Service Charges (England) Directions 1997 give social proposals in the 2010-11 draft Housing Revenue landlords discretion to reduce or waive leaseholders’ Account (HRA) Subsidy Determination published on bills in specified circumstances. 10 December 2009 on the total net outturn of HRA The Social Landlords Mandatory Reduction of Service subsidy for 2010-11. [308243] Charges (England) Directions 1997 require them to John Healey: Any HRA subsidy forecast for a future reduce bills in certain cases when special Government year can change very significantly due to interest rate assistance is applied for from specified programmes. and stock movement changes, and other information The Department’s 2006-07 Housing Revenue Account submitted by local authorities through HRA subsidy (HRA) Manual also provides guidance to local authorities returns. We will not have data from local authorities to on appropriate accounting treatment of mixed leaseholder inform estimates of any subsidy surplus for 2010-11 and tenanted blocks, including general advice on how until after the first subsidy claim forms are received at to account for income and expenditure on works to the end of March 2010. common parts. Islam4UK The above guidance does not distinguish between local authorities and their Arms Length Management John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Organisations. Communities and Local Government what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Local Government Finance the Home Department on the effects on community cohesion of the activities of Islam4UK. [309643] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Malik: In my role as the Minister for preventing Communities and Local Government which areas have extremism, I have met with the Home Secretary and adopted participatory budgeting; what funding his other Home Office Ministers to discuss Islam4UK. Department has provided to support the use of that The Prime Minister and I have publicly commented practice in each such area. [309009] Islam4UK’s recent announcements appear intended to provoke anger and division between communities. They Barbara Follett: The Participatory Budgeting Unit have not succeeded. Last week we saw local Wootton (PBU) collate information on our behalf on bodies that Bassett residents and the Wiltshire Islamic Cultural have adopted it. Initiatives are being led by a variety of Centre united in opposition to Islam4UK’s “irresponsible types of organisation including councils (all types), and irrational” actions. police authorities, primary care trusts and the third sector. Land Use According to the information available to the PBU, Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for the following bodies have implemented participatory Communities and Local Government whether his budgeting initiatives: Department has undertaken research into the practice North West of land banking by (a) developers and (b) Salford City Council supermarkets in the last five years. [308428] St Helens Metropolitan Borough Council Mr. Ian Austin: The Department for Communities Lancaster City Council and Local Government has not undertaken research Wirral Metropolitan Borough Council into the practice of land banking by developers or Sefton Council supermarkets in the last five years. Manchester City Council Landlords: Registration Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Liverpool City Council Communities and Local Government what timetable Greater Manchester Police—Tameside, Stockport, Bolton and he has set for the introduction of a national register of Rochdale landlords; and whether legislation will be required to Lancashire Police—Wyre and Blackburn establish such a register. [307850] Merseyside Police—Liverpool Mr. Ian Austin: Introduction of a national register for Cheshire East Council landlords would require primary legislation. At present, Alston Moor Parish Council there is no timetable established for such legislation. Wigan Community Network (Third Sector) Leasehold: Service Charges North East Newcastle upon Tyne City Council Mr. Pickles: To ask the Secretary of State for Sunderland City Council Communities and Local Government what guidance Wansbeck District Council his Department has issued to (a) local authorities and (b) arms length management organisations on the level Gateshead Metropolitan Borough Council of service charges levied by them on their leaseholders. Hartlepool Borough Council [308328] Cleveland Police—Hartlepool 891W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 892W

West Middlesbrough Neighbourhood Trust (New Deal for Dulverton Town Council Communities—Third Sector) Cornwall Council Coast and Country Housing (Redcar) Plymouth—Devonport Regeneration Community Partnership Stockton-on-Tees Borough Council (New Deal for Communities—Third Sector) Northumbria Police—Sunderland, Gateshead, South Tyneside Again according to the PBU, the following bodies and Newcastle intend to implement participatory budgeting initiatives, Yorkshire and the Humber but have not yet done so: Bradford Local Strategic Partnership North West York City Council Carlisle City Council Sheffield City Council Trafford Metropolitan Borough Council Leeds City Council Wigan Metropolitan Borough Council Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council Rochdale Metropolitan Borough Council Hull—Preston Road Neighbourhood Development Company Yorkshire and the Humber (New Deal for Communities—Third Sector) Kirklees Council North Lincolnshire Council Hull Primary Care Trust Scarborough Borough Council East Midlands South Yorkshire Police—Rotherham, Barnsley and Sheffield Daventry District Council West Yorkshire Police—Wakefield East West Midlands Luton Borough Council Birmingham City Council Hertfordshire County Council Staffordshire County Council South East Walsall—The new horizons community enterprise (New Deal for Communities—Third Sector) Buckinghamshire County Council West Bromwich—Greets Green Partnership (New Deal for Portsmouth City Council Communities—Third Sector) South West Hampton Bishop Parish Council Bristol City Council Coventry City Council CLG provides grant funding to the PBU who provide West Midland Police—Birmingham advice and support to areas implementing participatory Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council budgeting. We provided £260,000 in grant funding to East Midlands the PBU in 2008-09 and we have allocated £270,000 in Leicestershire County Council grant funding for 2009-10. Manton Community Alliance (Third Sector delivering Local Government Services: EU Law neighbourhood management pathfinder) Mansfield District Council Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Nottingham Neighbourhood Development Company (New Communities and Local Government what recent Deal for Communities—Third Sector) assessment he has made of the effects on local Bassetlaw District Council authorities of the implementation of the EU Services Leicester City Council Directive. [308253] Derbyshire Police—Bolsover Nottinghamshire Police—Mansfield and Nottingham Ms Rosie Winterton: We have approached the implementation of the EU Services Directive in accordance East with our commitment to ensure that all new burdens Norfolk County Council falling on local authorities, including those arising as a Norfolk Police—Broadland result of the implementation of EU Directives, are fully Huntingdonshire District Council considered and properly funded so that there is no London upward pressure on council tax bills. Lewisham London Borough Council Local Government Services: Fees and Charges Haringey London Borough Council Lambeth London Borough Council Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Tower Hamlets Local Strategic Partnership Communities and Local Government what steps his Metropolitan Police—Islington and Barking and Dagenham Department has taken in response to the review of the South East Audit Commission of the use of fees and charges by local authorities. [308586] Isle of Wight Council Thanet District Council Barbara Follett: In the last decade, the Audit Commission Southampton City Council have issued two national reports on local authority fees Kent County Council and charges. The first, published in 1999, which was Thames Valley Police—Slough entitled “The Price is Right” identified a number of Kent Police—Thanet issues for authorities to consider when setting fees, and also found that the legal framework for council charges South West was complex and confusing and the framework should Wiltshire Council be reviewed to provide the best authorities with the East Devon District Council freedom to improve and innovate. The Government 893W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 894W took action to provide greater flexibility for local decisions Ofsted/CQC reported on services for safeguarding and looked in this area by introducing a power for councils to after children in August 2009. (Ofsted assumed responsibility charge for discretionary services. This power, which was for assessing and inspecting children’s service including children’s implemented by section 93 of the Local Government social care services in April 2007); Act 2003, is limited to cost recovery and the authority Ofsted published annual ratings of Staffordshire children’s services in November 2007, December 2008 and December may only charge a person for providing a service if he or 2009. she has agreed to its provision. Information on Ofsted’s assessments and inspections The Commission’s second report, entitled “Positively in Staffordshire is available on its website: Charged” was published in 2008 and it also made a http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/oxcare_providers/la_view/(leaid)/ number of recommendations for local authorities to 860 consider and found that the rationale for centrally CQC and Ofsted contributed to the comprehensive imposed restrictions on the level of fees was not always area assessment (CAA) introduced from April 2009. clear. However, the Government considers the level of The multi-inspectorate CAA report on Staffordshire in centrally set fees carefully to try to ensure that the December 2009 included CQC’s performance assessment appropriate balance between the policy objectives of and Ofsted’s annual rating. CAA Reports are available the service covered by the fee, and its level is struck. on the Oneplace website: The Government believe that councils should avoid http://oneplace.direct.gov.uk/Pages/default.aspx imposing double taxation on citizens by adopting proposals that deliver only a basic level of service, and impose Mortgages: Rented Housing charges for anything above this. We also believe that councils must not see raising income—whether through Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for charges or taxation—as an alternative to cutting out Communities and Local Government how many waste and driving down expenditure. Anyone who pays buy-to-let mortgages were in arrears in each year since a tax or a charge for a local service has the right to 1997. [309935] expect that the authority in question will strive to keep costs down and improve efficiency. Mr. Ian Austin: The Department does not collect information on mortgage possessions and arrears. Local Government: Staffordshire Information is published separately by the Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML) and the Financial Services Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority (FSA). Communities and Local Government (1) what assessments of Staffordshire County Council’s social Multiple Occupation: Licensing services department have been undertaken since 2007; [309479] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Social Services: Staffordshire answer of 6 January 2010, Official Report, column (2) what assessments of Staffordshire County 381W, on multiple occupation: licensing, for what Council’s social services department have been made reason the report has not yet been published; and since 2008. [310091] whether he expects it to be published before May 2010. [310389] Barbara Follett: The Department for Communities and Local Government does not hold records of the Mr. Ian Austin: The Building Research Establishment inspections and assessments taking place in individual Report is ready for publication. Publication was originally councils. However, inspectorates have advised that: delayed due to Purdah prior to the local authority The Care Quality Commission (CQC), which was elections last year, and the ministerial changes that established in April 2009, and one of its predecessors, followed. We are currently awaiting a suitable publication the Commission for Social Care Inspection (CSCI), has date prior to May 2010. carried out the following assessments of Staffordshire Non-Domestic Rates: Closed Circuit Television county council since 2007: reviews of Staffordshire county council’s fostering services and of its adoption service, both in January 2007; Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what published its annual performance assessment of Staffordshire county council for 2007-08 in October 2008; methodology the Valuation Office Agency uses to value closed circuit television for the purpose of calculating carried out an inspection of Staffordshire county council in March-April 2009 to find out how well the council was safeguarding business rates. [308593] vulnerable adults. The results were published as a CQC review of “Independence, Wellbeing and Choice”’ in June 2009; Barbara Follett: To the extent a closed circuit television published its 2008-09 annual performance assessment of the system is rateable, separately or as part of a larger council in December 2009, which includes details of Staffordshire’s rateable hereditament, valuation officers have used a adult social care services. cost based methodology to value them. All of CQC’s documents are available on its website: Ordnance Survey: Income http://www.cqc.org.uk/publications.cfm Also undertaken were: Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Audit Commission inspection of the Supporting People framework Communities and Local Government how much in 2008; income Ordnance Survey received from the sale of (a) Ofsted reported on Staffordshire’s fostering services in May licences and (b) maps in each of the last three years. 2008; [309849] 895W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 896W

Mr. Ian Austin: For the last three years for which This group has met four times to date—in July, complete information is available the income received September (twice) and December 2009—and plans to by Ordnance Survey in the categories indicated, was: meet again shortly. My officials will be sharing the outcome of the group’s work on LLAs with the staff of £ million local authorities, voluntary organisations and industry Revenue from licences Revenue from paper maps bodies—including case studies on LAs who have introduced an LLA—during the spring. 2006-07 98.6 9.1 2007-08 101.4 9.6 In addition, Ministers and officials meet from time to 2008-09 102.3 8.9 time on this and other PRS issues with local authorities, senior staff from organisations including Crisis and Planning Obligations Shelter and industry bodies such as the National Landlords Association (NLA) and the National Approved Lettings Scheme (NALS). Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance his Department has issued to local authorities on Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for whether funding under section 106 of the Town and Communities and Local Government when his Country Planning Act 1990 may be spent on religious Department plans to publish its response to the consultation on its proposals for implementation of the buildings. [310451] recommendations of the Rugg review of the private rented sector. [309400] Mr. Ian Austin: The Government’s policy on the use of Planning Obligations is set out in Circular 05/05 and local authorities must have reason for departing from it. Mr. Ian Austin: We have been carefully considering Communities and Local Government has also published the over 250 responses we received to our consultation practice guidance on Planning Obligations. on proposals in response to the Rugg review of the private rented sector. A summary of those responses Both of these documents are available on the will be published shortly. Department’s website. Regional Government: South West Private Rented Housing Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how the South Communities and Local Government what activity his West Councils is funded. [309500] Department has undertaken as part of the task and finish groups referred to in the Government response Barbara Follett: The South West Secretariat which to the Rugg review of the private rented sector. supports the SW Councils receives funding from a [309397] number of sources. Communities and Local Government (CLG) funds the Strategic Leaders’ Board planning, Mr. Ian Austin: Four task and finish groups were transport and housing functions; grant funding is also established as part of the consultation process for the received from CLG to support the delivery of improvement Government’s response to the Rugg review of private and efficiency across the public sector. The Home Office rented sector housing. Three of these groups (considering provides funding for work on migration and asylum. In proposals for a national register, regulation of letting addition local authorities, including town and parish and managing agents and regulation of managing agents councils subscribe to the organisation. for leasehold properties) each met twice during the There is also an element of not for profit, self generated consultation period. A further group, considering local funding through provision of specialist employment letting agencies, has met four times to date and continues consultancy and learning and development events. to do so. Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Communities and Local Government (1) what recent people are employed at South West Councils. [309501] meetings (a) officials and (b) Ministers in his Department have had with organisations which aim to Barbara Follett: From 1 January 2010 South West remove the barriers to the private rented housing sector councils will employ 66.5 full-time equivalent posts held for low income households on housing waiting lists; by 71 staff. This is a reduction from 79 full-time equivalent [309398] posts in April 2009. (2) when he plans to publish proposals for local lettings agencies, as referred to in the Government Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for response to the Rugg review of the private rented Communities and Local Government how much sector. [309399] funding South West Councils receives per annum. [309502] Mr. Ian Austin: As part of the consultation process on the Government’s response to the Rugg review of Barbara Follett: For financial year 2009-10 South private rented sector housing, a group was set up with West Councils received the following funding from key stakeholders to explore how local authorities could Communities and Local Government: £2,070,148 (regional work more effectively with the private rented sector to funding for Strategic Leaders’ Board) and £525,000 to house low-income individuals and households, particularly fund the core costs of the South West Regional Efficiency through a Local Lettings Agency (LLA) approach. and Improvement Programme (REIP). In addition to 897W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 898W this South West Councils received £110,000 direct from A copy of the CLG report “The English Indices of the Home Office to support regional work on migration Deprivation 2007” is available in the Library of the and asylum. Local government subscriptions to South House. Shop vacancy data are part of a set of statistics West Councils amounted to £572,700 and Associate collected by Experian on a frequent basis as part of Members of South West Employers provided £31,000. their business. We entered into a commercial arrangement It is anticipated that South West Employers will generate with Experian to use the data set for allocating this £800,000 through their training and consultancy service. funding but do not have rights to publish it.

Royal Society of Arts Sleeping Rough Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what qualifying Communities and Local Government if he will place in criteria are required in order to receive a Supporting the Library a copy of the full text of his speech to the People grant under the rough sleeper strand; and if he Royal Society of Arts of 21 October 2009. [309008] will make a statement. [307221] Barbara Follett: A copy of my right hon. Friend’s Mr. Ian Austin: Supporting People funding is not speech as held on the Department’s website has been allocated on a client group basis. The Supporting People placed in the Library. programme is administered at the local level by the relevant administering authority and CLG do not set a Sheltered Housing qualifying criteria for providers to receive a grant. It is for the authority to decide which services to fund, Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State informed by the local needs and priorities. The majority for Communities and Local Government what recent of individuals who are eligible for Supporting People guidance his Department has issued to local authorities funding tend to use a service, rather than receive a cash on the provision of support for sheltered housing grant. wardens. [307950] Social Rented Housing: Regulation

Mr. Ian Austin: The Department for Communities Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government has not issued any guidance on Communities and Local Government what estimate he the provision of support for sheltered housing wardens. has made of the likely level of fees which will be levied The Supporting People programme grant, which is paid on registered social landlords to cover the cost of to top tier local authorities to enable them to provide regulation by the Tenant Services Authority. [309851] housing related support services, which may include the provision of wardens in sheltered housing schemes, is Mr. Ian Austin: No decision has been taken to levy managed and delivered at the local level. Decisions fees on social landlords to cover the cost of regulation. about the provision of services are a matter for local Before any decision is taken, the Tenant Services Authority authorities based on local needs and priorities. will consult on the principle and approach to introducing fees. Shops: Empty Property Thames Gateway London Partnership

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with reference to Communities and Local Government if he will place in the answer to the hon. Member for Putney of the Library copies of the written representations made 13 October 2009, Official Report, column 771W, on to his Department by the Thames Gateway London empty shops funding grant, if he will place in the Partnership in the last 12 months. [309035] Library a copy of the methodology used to allocate the funding to the local authorities listed. [308982] Barbara Follett: The information requested is not held centrally and could only be provided at Barbara Follett: As the Department for Communities disproportionate cost. and Local Government announced on August 13 and December 4 2009, it is providing £5.6 million to 107 local authorities to support initiatives designed to make use of vacant shops to give a boost to high streets and town HEALTH centres adversely affected by the recession. We have NHS: Charitable Funding targeted this funding at councils with relatively high levels of deprivation and each is receiving just over 15. Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for £52,000. Health what his latest estimate is of the amount of The allocations announced in August 2009 were based money donated to NHS institutions through charitable on local authorities in the top third of the Index of giving. [310030] Multiple Deprivation (IMD) ranked in order of shop vacancy rates; the top 57 councils each received just Phil Hope: In 2008-09, national health service trusts over £52,000. The allocations announced in December and primary care trusts in England received contributions 2009 were based on local authorities in the top half of from all charitable sources totalling £62 million in the IMD ranked in order of shop vacancy rates, but expenditure and £65 million in assets. The Department excluded those which had received funding in August; a does not collect this information for NHS Foundation further 50 councils also received just over £52,000 each. Trusts who report directly to Monitor. 899W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 900W

A and E: Nottinghamshire NHS Staff: Protection

16. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for 21. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent assessment has been made of the Health what steps he plans to take to protect NHS staff effectiveness of accident and emergency provision in from abusive and violent behaviour in hospitals; and if Nottinghamshire hospitals. [310031] he will make a statement. [310038]

Ann Keen: Primary care trusts commission national Ann Keen: Each national health service body has a health service hospital trusts to provide emergency care duty to address risks to staff and ensure their safety. services according to local needs and monitor their The Department and the NHS Security Management performance. Service will work with stakeholders, including the Social Partnership Forum, to promote the safety of staff. NHS Ambulance Trusts A new offence of causing nuisance or disturbance on hospital premises and a power to remove someone 17. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for suspected of committing this offence have recently been Health what recent discussions he has had with NHS introduced. ambulance trust professionals regarding measuring patient outcomes. [310034] Health Visitors: Hertfordshire Mr. Mike O’Brien: I refer the hon. Member to the oral answer I gave to him earlier today. 22 Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many health visitors the NHS employed in Hertfordshire (a) in 2005 and (b) on the latest date for Cancer Treatment which figures are available. [310039]

18. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Ann Keen: In the last decade, child health services Health what assessment has been made of the have developed based on research and the healthy child comparative cost and efficacy of herceptin and programme. In all the trusts serving the Hertfordshire lapatenib for cancer patients. [310035] region, 340 health visitors were employed in 2005. Following the change and the extensive child health programmes, Ann Keen: The Department has made no such we now deliver child health by a range of practitioners. assessment. It is the role of the Medicines and Healthcare The latest figures show that at 30 September 2008, there Products Regulatory Agency to assess the efficacy of were 272 health visitors in trusts that serve the Hertfordshire drugs and the National Institute for Health and Clinical area. Excellence to appraise the clinical and cost effectiveness of new drugs and treatments. Dentistry: Children

NHS Hospitals: Private Facilities 23. Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of children of primary school 19. Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for age were treated by an NHS dentist in (a) England, Health how many private rooms there are in NHS (b) Northamptonshire and (c) Kettering constituency hospitals built since 2001; and if he will make a in the last 12 months. [310040] statement. [310036] Ann Keen: We do not collect statistics relating solely Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department collects data on to children of primary school age. In England, 7,658,923 single rooms in new national health service hospitals children (69.6 per cent. of all children) received care or with a capital value over £25 million. Private pay bedroom treatment from a national health service dentist in the data are not collected. Since 2001, all schemes have met 24 months ending September 2009. In Northamptonshire the Department’s guidance that the proportion of standard Primary Care Trust (PCT), 100,901 children were seen in-patient single rooms in new hospitals should aim to (65.3 per cent. of all children resident in the PCT). be 50 per cent. but not fall below 20 per cent. and must be higher than the facilities they are replacing. PCT Funding Smoking Cessation Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he expects those primary care trusts 20. Tom Levitt: To ask the Secretary of State for classified as under-target to meet the target funding Health what steps his Department is taking to level determined by the formula announced in encourage people to stop smoking. [310037] December 2008. [310020]

Gillian Merron: This Government have given active Mr. Mike O’Brien: The national health service will encouragement to people to stop smoking through setting always be a priority for increasing investment, and we up NHS Stop Smoking Services, smokefree legislation, remain committed to moving primary care trusts (PCTs) banning tobacco advertising, raising the age of sale and towards their target allocations as quickly as possible. effective information campaigns. Future progress towards target will depend on a number A new tobacco control strategy will soon be published of factors including population changes, cost pressures to help further reduce the damage caused by smoking. and the overall resources available to the NHS. 901W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 902W

There has been a greater recognition of the level of incidents resulting in hospital admissions there were in need in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly PCT and as a each (a) primary care trust and (b) strategic health result, this PCT will ultimately get more money than it authority area in each of the last three years. [309681] would have done previously. Gillian Merron: The number of alcohol-related accident Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse and emergency incidents resulting in hospital admissions in each primary care trust (PCT) and regional health Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Health area in each of the last three years is presented as how many alcohol-related accident and emergency follows:

Number of admissions via accident and emergency (A and E) of patients with an alcohol-related condition by PCT of residence PCT name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Ashton, Leigh and Wigan PCT 4,133 4,083 4,623 Barking and Dagenham PCT 1,870 1,899 1,933 Barnet PCT 2,082 1,641 2,593 Barnsley PCT 2,037 2,164 2,480 Bassetlaw PCT 915 946 958 Bath and North East Somerset PCT 1,545 1,546 1,694 Bedfordshire PCT 2,879 3,263 3,389 Berkshire East PCT 2,364 2,434 2,825 Berkshire West PCT 1,758 1,977 2,047 Bexley Care Trust 1,148 1,308 1,332 Birmingham East and North PCT 3,847 4,223 4,659 Blackburn with Darwen PCT 1,648 1,656 1,715 Blackpool PCT 1,679 1,619 1,931 Bolton PCT 2,979 3,068 2,955 Bournemouth and Poole PCT 2,305 2,360 2,622 Bradford and Airedale PCT 3,925 4,398 5,438 Brent Teaching PCT 2,201 2,345 2,518 Brighton and Hove City PCT 2,733 3,188 3,698 Bristol PCT 4,067 3,844 4,716 Bromley PCT 2,448 2,468 2,708 Buckinghamshire PCT 2,794 2,547 2,633 Bury PCT 1,762 1,981 2,202 Calderdale PCT 1,763 1,989 1,911 Cambridgeshire PCT 4,585 4,861 5,260 Camden PCT 2,114 2,148 2,039 Central and Eastern Cheshire PCT 4,449 4,985 5,318 Central Lancashire PCT 4,060 4,492 4,762 City and Hackney Teaching PCT 2,266 2,210 2,015 Cornwall and Isles of Scilly PCT 3,063 3,466 3,950 County Durham PCT 3,967 4,700 5,494 Coventry Teaching PCT 2,258 2,254 3,581 Croydon PCT 2,914 2,986 3,353 Cumbria PCT 3,771 4,106 4,222 Darlington PCT 988 1,049 1,122 Derby City PCT 2,098 2,251 2,989 Derbyshire County PCT 5,118 5,679 6,272 Devon PCT 4,437 4,917 5,353 Doncaster PCT 2,482 2,558 2,643 Dorset PCT 2,580 2,582 2,900 Dudley PCT 2,366 2,728 2,766 Ealing PCT 2,875 3,626 4,020 East and North Hertfordshire PCT 2,593 2,869 3,006 East Lancashire PCT 3,546 3,851 4,105 East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 2,010 2,181 2,261 East Sussex Downs and Weald PCT 2,631 2,876 3,177 Eastern and Coastal Kent PCT 5,999 7,046 7,798 Enfield PCT 2,274 1,582 2,401 Gateshead PCT 2,527 2,525 2,910 Gloucestershire PCT 3,208 3,182 3,367 Great Yarmouth and Waveney PCT 1,468 1,513 1,718 Greenwich Teaching PCT 1,711 1,916 1,679 Halton and St. Helens PCT 4,039 4,544 5,105 Hammersmith and Fulham PCT 1,725 2,085 2,117 Hampshire PCT 6,893 7,822 9,065 903W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 904W

Number of admissions via accident and emergency (A and E) of patients with an alcohol-related condition by PCT of residence PCT name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Haringey Teaching PCT 1,813 1,851 2,118 Harrow PCT 1,381 1,511 1,635 Hartlepool PCT 846 918 1,030 Hastings and Rother PCT 1,848 1,830 1,985 Havering PCT 2,134 2,231 2,271 Heart of Birmingham Teaching PCT 3,461 3,677 3,898 Herefordshire PCT 1,153 1,128 1,274 Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale PCT 2,211 2,466 2,930 Hillingdon PCT 2,424 2,575 2,695 Hounslow PCT 1,382 2,319 2,678 Hull PCT 2,991 2,899 2,973 Isle of Wight Healthcare PCT 722 663 865 Islington PCT 1,922 2,084 2,093 Kensington and Chelsea PCT 1,176 1,253 1,326 Kingston PCT 1,177 1,292 1,000 Kirklees PCT 2,491 2,958 3,343 Knowsley PCT 2,352 2,655 2,767 Lambeth PCT 2,881 2,566 2,354 Leeds PCT 7,072 7,485 9,047 Leicester City PCT 3,940 3,949 3,957 Leicestershire County and Rutland PCT 4,341 4,591 5,029 Lewisham PCT 2,103 2,480 2,646 Lincolnshire PCT 4,739 5,028 5,409 Liverpool PCT 8,485 7,585 8,134 Luton Teaching PCT 1,309 1,569 1,723 Manchester PCT 6,224 6,512 7,184 Med way Teaching PCT 1,995 2,016 2,056 Mid Essex PCT 1,749 1,878 2,216 Middlesbrough PCT 2,203 2,200 2,348 Milton Keynes PCT 685 1,656 1,494 Newcastle PCT 2,755 3,163 3,305 Newham PCT 2,590 2,586 2,742 Norfolk PCT 4,067 4,441 5,002 North East Essex PCT 1,763 1,755 2,021 North East Lincolnshire PCT 1,322 1,398 1,122 North Lancashire PCT 2,423 2,481 2,933 North Lincolnshire PCT 1,325 1,417 1,189 North Somerset PCT 1,708 1,659 2,020 North Staffordshire PCT 1,462 1,228 1,961 North Tyneside PCT 2,855 3,107 3,245 North Yorkshire and York PCT 4,894 5,053 5,566 Northamptonshire PCT 3,968 4,444 4,974 Northumberland Care Trust 3,888 3,951 4,167 Nottingham City PCT 2,332 2,504 2,908 Nottinghamshire County PCT 4,256 4,733 5,474 Oldham PCT 2,292 2,315 2,531 Oxfordshire PCT 3,044 3,596 3,613 Peterborough PCT 1,135 1,426 1,552 Plymouth Teaching PCT 2,058 2,098 2,265 Portsmouth City Teaching PCT 1,762 2,052 2,229 Redbridge PCT 2,411 2,420 2,592 Redcar and Cleveland PCT 1,669 1,750 1,894 Richmond and Twickenham PCT 1,039 1,330 1,312 Rotherham PCT 2,345 2,369 2,523 Salford PCT 3,722 3,676 4,185 Sandwell PCT 3,552 3,576 3,555 Sefton PCT 3,472 3,648 3,643 Sheffield PCT 3,532 3,860 4,367 Shropshire County PCT 1,576 1,520 1,603 Solihull PCT 1,611 1,861 2,033 Somerset PCT 3,599 3,286 3,957 South Birmingham PCT 3,542 3,549 3,576 South East Essex PCT 2,606 2,987 3,239 South Gloucestershire PCT 1,800 1,672 1,777 905W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 906W

Number of admissions via accident and emergency (A and E) of patients with an alcohol-related condition by PCT of residence PCT name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

South Staffordshire PCT 3,393 4,155 4,812 South Tyneside PCT 1,480 1,591 1,962 South West Essex PCT 2,094 2,351 2,476 Southampton City PCT 1,408 1,640 2,067 Southwark PCT 2,284 2,436 2,326 Stockport PCT 2,895 3,071 3,325 Stockton-on-Tees Teaching 1,550 1,753 1,822 Stoke on Trent PCT 2,187 1,889 2,869 Suffolk PCT 3,858 4,114 3,988 Sunderland Teaching PCT 3,586 3,723 4,317 Surrey PCT 7,037 7,753 8,353 Sutton and Merton PCT 2,247 2,961 3,451 Swindon PCT 1,257 1,263 1,626 Tameside and Glossop PCT 2,827 3,093 3,284 Telford and Wrekin PCT 1,315 1,155 1,158 Torbay Care Trust 1,232 1,484 1,504 Tower Hamlets PCT 1,785 1,858 1,617 Trafford PCT 1,985 2,081 2,514 Wakefield District PCT 2,509 2,969 3,058 Walsall Teaching PCT 2,508 2,634 2,877 Waltham Forest PCT 2,309 2,234 2,409 Wandsworth PCT 2,146 2,308 2,347 Warrington PCT 2,508 2,611 2,673 Warwickshire PCT 3,423 3,540 4,324 West Essex PCT 2,092 2,515 2,826 West Hertfordshire PCT 2,799 3,211 3,738 West Kent PCT 4,977 5,036 5,472 West Sussex PCT 5,861 6,281 7,065 Western Cheshire PCT 2,294 2,347 2,457 Westminster PCT 1,743 1,843 1,969 Wiltshire PCT 3,126 3,033 3,495 Wirral PCT 4,859 5,318 5,296 Wolverhampton City PCT 1,731 1,732 1,728 Worcestershire PCT 3,725 4,074 4,714

Number of admissions via A and E of patients with an alcohol-related condition by strategic health authority (SHA) of residence SHA name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

North East SHA 28,313 30,429 33,617 North West SHA 80,614 84,243 90,792 Yorkshire and The Humber SHA 40,698 43,696 47,921 East Midlands SHA 31,706 34,125 37,970 West Midlands SHA 43,109 44,923 51,386 East of England SHA 34,998 38,754 42,153 London SHA 62,574 66,351 70,287 South East Coast SHA 33,082 36,027 39,603 South Central SHA 21,431 24,388 26,839 South West SHA 35,987 36,391 41,245 Unknown/no fixed abode 7,750 9,488 8,539 England 420,263 448,813 490,354 Notes: Includes activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. Alcohol-related conditions The number of alcohol-related admissions is based on the methodology developed by the North West Public Health Observatory. Figures for under 16s only include admissions where one or more of the following alcohol-specific conditions were listed: Alcoholic cardiomyopathy (I42.6) Alcoholic gastritis (K29.2) Alcoholic liver disease (K70) Alcoholic myopathy (G72.1) Alcoholic polyneuropathy (G62.1) Alcohol-induced pseudo-Cushing’s syndrome (E24.4) Chronic pancreatitis (alcohol induced) (K86.0) Degeneration of nervous system due to alcohol (G31.2) Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol (F10) Accidental poisoning by and exposure to alcohol (X45) 907W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 908W

Ethanol poisoning (T51.0) Methanol poisoning (T51.1) Toxic effect of alcohol, unspecified (T51.9) Number of episodes in which the patient had an alcohol-related primary or secondary diagnosis These figures represent the number of episodes where an alcohol-related diagnosis was recorded in any of the 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) primary and secondary diagnosis fields in a HES record. Each episode is only counted once in each count, even if an alcohol-related diagnosis is recorded in more than one diagnosis field of the record. Ungrossed data Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in data (ie the data are ungrossed). Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. It should be noted that admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. Admissions via A and E Includes emergency admissions via the casualty department of the provider and the A and E department of another healthcare provider (Method of admission codes 21 and 28). Primary diagnosis The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the HES data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. Secondary diagnosis As well as the primary diagnosis, there are up to 19 (13 from 2002-03 to 2007-08 and six prior to 2002-03) secondary diagnosis fields in HES that show other diagnoses relevant to the episode of care. Data quality HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts (PCTs) in England. Data are also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Assessing growth through time HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in NHS practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in out-patient settings and may no longer be accounted for in the HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. Assignment of episodes to years Years are assigned by the end of the first period of care in a patient’s hospital stay. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

Bone Marrow Disorders: Donors Cardiovascular System: Diseases

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 9 December 2009, Official what work his Department has carried out to develop Report, column 469W, on bone marrow disorders: national guidelines for primary care trusts on donors, if he will consider the merits of collecting commissioning enhanced services for people with statistics on UK and non-UK bone marrow donors in peripheral arterial disease. [309973] order to inform the development of a UK bone marrow donor recruitment strategy. [309661] Ann Keen: A primary care service framework was developed and published by NHS Primary Care Gillian Merron: The United Kingdom is part of the Commissioning, in consultation with a number of Bone Marrow Donors Worldwide network. This provides stakeholders including the peripheral arterial disease reciprocal access to over 13 million bone marrow donors (PAD) support group, Target PAD and the Department. and umbilical cord blood units on registries across the These frameworks are specifically developed to provide world. support and guidance to national health service The Department does not hold centrally statistics on organisations (who choose to use them) to effectively the import or export of bone marrow. The most important commission and provide specific services. challenge when searching for a stem cell unit for transplant Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health is not where it comes from but whether it is a suitable (1) how many vascular networks there are in England; match for the patient. Everyone’s genetic history is and what his Department’s definition is of the (a) complex. This means that finding a suitable match for a remit and (b) purpose of such networks; [309974] patient can prove very difficult, even when the international registries are used. This task is even more difficult if the (2) how many cardiovascular networks are condition is rare or there are other factors attributed to undertaking activity related to (a) peripheral arterial a patient’s condition. Therefore, the value of collecting disease and (b) co-ordinating network activity for statistics on UK and non-UK bone marrow donors to peripheral arterial disease. [309975] inform the development of a UK bone marrow donor Ann Keen: There are 28 cardiac and stroke networks recruitment strategy has not been demonstrated. in England. The networks were set up to support Bone Marrow Disorders: Transplant Surgery implementation of the Coronary Heart Disease (CHD) National Service Framework (2000) and the national Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Stroke Strategy (2007). The remit of these networks is how many (a) adults and (b) child patients awaiting a to foster joint working, support commissioning and bone marrow transplant have died as a result of the undertake service improvement exercises, resulting in condition necessitating the transplant in each of the better services and improved outcomes for cardiac and last five years. [309679] stroke patients. Their purpose is to ensure that individuals experience co-ordinated care from their first contact Gillian Merron: The Department does not hold this with services through to rehabilitation and support information. after discharge from hospital. They are also a key 909W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 910W vehicle for involving patients and carers as active partners Public Service. It consists of week-long modules in the in co-ordinating and supporting service development. UK, Australia and Canada. It also has a view to creating The networks receive support from the NHS Heart a network of high potential senior leaders covering the Improvement Programme and the NHS Stroke two hemispheres. Improvement Programme which are part of the wider Details of the programme are publicly available at: NHS Improvement Programme. Further information www.nationalschool.gov.uk/programmes/ about the networks is given in the CHD National programme.asp?id=20999 Service Framework and the national Stroke Strategy, copies of which have already been placed in the Departmental Training Library. The Department does not monitor the activity of the Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for cardiac and stroke networks. Health how many sessions of media training were Care Homes: Disabled organised for Ministers in his Department in each of the last three years. [309912]

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Phil Hope: Training is provided to Ministers on a what plans there are for the future of Douglass House range of issues including handling the media, as part of in Bournemouth; and if he will make a statement. their induction and continuing development in order to [309612] carry out their duties effectively under the Ministerial Code. Phil Hope: I refer the hon. Member to the written answer I gave him on 27 October 2009, Official Report, Drugs: Prisons column 262W. Departmental Surveys Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many prisoners have participated in Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for intensive drug treatment programmes in the last five Health if he will place in the Library a copy of the years; and what assessment he has made of their results of his Department’s most recent staff survey; effectiveness of such programmes. [308216] which organisation carried out the survey; and what Maria Eagle: I have been asked to reply. the cost of the survey was. [309834] The following table provides figures for prisoners Phil Hope: The Department of Health intends to recorded as entering accredited drug treatment programmes publish its October 2009 staff survey results on the in 2008-09, the latest period for which figures are available. Department’s website during March 2010. Following These figures have been drawn from administrative data publication, we will place a copy of the results in the systems. Although care is taken when processing and Library. analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to The supplier for the Department’s staff survey in the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording October 2009 was ORC International who were procured system. by the Cabinet Office to deliver the first cross-Civil All accredited drug treatment programmes available Service People Survey. The People Survey replaced all in prisons are based on good practice found in the existing staff surveys in the civil service with a single community. Evaluations to date specifically of prison questionnaire. drug treatment programmes run in England and Wales The cost of the 2009-10 People Survey for the are limited and have not always met the highest standards Department is £33,257. By procuring a single of methodological robustness. However, they suggest supplier for staff surveys in 2009-10, the civil service has that accredited programmes can reduce re-offending saved 35 per cent. on the total cost of staff surveys in (Ramsay, M. (ed) (2003) Prisoners’ Drug Use and 2008-09. Treatment: Seven Research Studies. Home Office Research Study 267. London: Home Office). International evidence Departmental Training supports these findings. The Prison Drug Treatment Strategy Review Group Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health has been established to oversee a complex piece of pursuant to the answer of 15 December 2009, Official work to take forward the recommendations of Report, column 1047W, on departmental training, how PricewaterhouseCoopers’ 2007 report on prison drug many civil servants attended the overseas training treatment. An assessment of the available evidence base course; where it was held; when it was held; and what for drug treatment in prisons will form a part of this its title was. [308987] review. A report with recommendations will be produced by the end of March 2009. Phil Hope: One official from the Department attended the ‘Leadership across borders: A four country programme’ Intervention starts (rounded to course which took place during 2009. This is an Intervention type (2008-09) nearest 10) international leadership initiative that aims to develop 12-Step Programme 850 leadership skills in tackling complex, global issues. The Therapeutic Communities 260 course is designed for senior public leaders and was Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) 9,650 created by the UK National School of Government, programmes1 the Australian Public Service Commission (also of which: representing New Zealand) and the Canada School of Short Duration Programme (5,550) 911W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 912W

GP numbers for 2009 will not be available until Intervention starts (rounded to Intervention type (2008-09) nearest 10) March 2010, when the 2009 workforce census is published. GPs in England (excluding GP retainers and GP registrars) Total 10,760 Headcount Full-time equivalent 1 Prisons have in place a range of CBT accredited drug programmes, including: PASRO (Prisoner Addressing Substance Related Offending), STOP (Substance 1997 28,046 26,359 Treatment and Offending Programme), FOCUS (high security prisons only) and the Short Duration Programme 2008 34,010 30,675 Source: Employment Tribunals Service NHS Information Centre Since 1997, the number of doctors in training has Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for increased by 60 per cent. to reflect the greater interest in Health how many industrial tribunals relating to his part-time and flexible working across medicine, particularly Department have been held in each of the last five in primary care. years; and what the total cost to his Department was of such tribunals in each such year. [309941] General Practitioners: Working Hours

Phil Hope: There have been a very small number of Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health employment tribunals relating to the Department in the how many GP practices had extended opening hours in last five years. As this is less than five in total, this (a) 1997 and (b) 2009. [310474] information is not given on the grounds of confidentiality. The total costs of those cases settled in favour of Mr. Mike O’Brien: Data was not collected in 1997 on claimants was £3,000. numbers of general practitioner (GP) practices offering extended opening. Information last collected in July General Practitioners 2009 showed that 6,384 of the 8,279 GP practices in England (77.1 per cent.) had extended their opening hours, offering their patients access to routine appointments. Dr. Stoate: To ask the Secretary of State for Health We expect this to continue to increase. (1) if he will require primary care trusts to publish a complete list of GPs with special interests; [310322] Health Professions: Regulation (2) if he will take steps to increase the number of GPs with special interests in (a) obesity, (b) weight management, (c) nutrition, (d) dermatology, (e) Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for sexual health, (f) respiratory health, (g) diabetes and Health whether he has made a recent estimate of the (a) time taken to process cases and (b) the number of (h) cardiovascular disease. [310326] outstanding cases awaiting adjudication by the (i) General Medical Council, (ii) Nursing and Midwifery Mr. Mike O’Brien: It is for primary care trusts to Council, (iii) Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great determine the best ways of meeting the health and Britain and (iv) Health Professions Council; and if he health care needs of their local populations, including will make a statement. [309448] the potential contribution of general practitioners (GPs) with special interests towards the Government’s overall Ann Keen: The Department does not routinely collect objective of moving care closer to patients where it is this information. The health care profession’s regulators appropriate and safe to do so. It is also for primary care are independent statutory bodies. trusts to decide in detail what information to publish about the services available locally. Health Services: Armed Forces Dr. Stoate: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) if he will publish a list of GPs with special interests Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for in (a) obesity, (b) weight management and (c) Health what assessment he has made of the (a) quality nutrition; [310323] of service provision and (b) adequacy of funding for (2) how many GPs have special interests in each (i) prosthetics and (ii) orthotics care in NHS trusts specialty. [310325] given to injured (A) service and (B) non-service personnel. [309490] Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information on the number of general practitioners with special interests in individual Mr. Mike O’Brien: Overall quality of service provision specialties is not collected centrally and could not be within the national health service is monitored by the obtained other than at disproportionate expense. Care Quality Commission and funding for prosthetic and orthotic care and services is provided within the NHS budget. The provision of care and service required General Practitioners: Manpower by individuals, whether they be service or non-service personnel, is determined through multidisciplinary Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health assessments to ensure clinical appropriateness. I refer how many general practitioners were employed by the the hon. Lady to the written statement made on 11 January NHS in (a) 1997 and (b) 2009. [310462] 2010, Official Report, column 15WS, around medical care for veterans, in which is announced a package of Ann Keen: The headcount number of general measures to support service personnel, together with a practitioners (GPs) (excluding retainers) for 1997 and guarantee of early and comprehensive assessment of 2008 is shown in the following table. long term needs for those sustaining serious injury. 913W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 914W

Homeopathy: Merseyside Neurology

Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much was spent on NHS homeopathic Health what recent assessment he has made of the (a) treatment in Merseyside in the last year for which quality of care provided for neuro-disability and information is available. [309764] neuro-rehabilitation patients and (b) merits of a national service framework for neuro-rehabilitation. Gillian Merron: The information requested is not [309503] collected centrally. Ann Keen: We have made no recent assessment of the quality of care for neuro-disability and neuro-rehabilitation patients, or the merits of a national service framework Hospitals: Infectious Diseases for neuro-rehabilitation. NHS: Non-Profit Making Associations Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what tests are available to detect (a) MRSA and (b) clostridium difficile infection; and by what means such Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health tests are deployed in the NHS. [309967] which NHS services in the East of England are considering a right to request to set up a social Ann Keen: Diagnostic tests for the presence and illness enterprise; how many staff employed by such services caused by both Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus would be transferred to such an enterprise if Aureus and Clostridium difficile can be divided into the established; and if he will make a statement. [309884] following categories: Phil Hope: This information is not held centrally and simple methods using routine culture that rely on the initial is a matter for local national health service organisations. growth of the organism from a clinical specimen and may take 24 to 72 hours to produce a result; Parkinson’s Disease rapid tests that may detect parts of these bacteria, such as toxins, enzymes or nucleic acids such as DNA or RNA (molecular Mr. Jeremy Browne: To ask the Secretary of State for tests) and may produce results in hours; and Health what steps he has taken to ensure the combinations of these methods designed to improve performance implementation of the National Institute for Health and minimise cost. and Clinical Excellence guidelines on Parkinson’s The actual choice of test or combination of tests is a Disease. [310371] decision made by each laboratory. This decision is based on experience and national guidance, for example diagnostic Ann Keen: We have no plans to ensure the implementation methods published by the Health Protection Agency. of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence’s clinical (NICE) guidelines on Parkinson’s disease. It is Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the responsibility of individual health professionals to what recent progress has been made on the deployment ensure they comply with all existing clinical guidelines in the NHS of new tests for (a) MRSA and (b) when providing health and social care. clostridium difficile; and what steps he is taking to From April 2009, the Care Quality Commission took ensure the deployment in the NHS of the most over from the Healthcare Commission and will consider, accurate, rapid and cost-effective tests available. in discussion with stakeholders including NICE, how to [309968] take account of NICE guidance as it develops its compliance criteria. Ann Keen: Information on the tests used by National In December 2009 I wrote to all strategic health Health Service laboratories is not collected centrally. authorities reinforcing the importance of implementing We provide advice and guidance to help laboratories National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence’s develop testing strategies and measures taken include guidance, and the National Service Framework for Long- for: term neurological Conditions in delivering high quality, accessible services for those living with Parkinson’s Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus (MRSA) disease. The Department has held productive discussions with the manufacturers of these testing kits and has funded research on Prescriptions: Fees and Charges the practical implementation of rapid molecular technology in two clinical centres. Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Guidance on testing for MRSA screening. how many (a) cancer patients and (b) people being Clostridium difficile (C. difficile ) infection treated for the effects of cancer treatment have received free prescriptions since their introduction for such Advice was issued by the Department of Health and the patients. [310473] Health Protection Agency (HPA) on testing strategies in March 2009, following the publication of the Centre for Evidence Based Purchasing report on the performance of C. difficile test Mr. Mike O’Brien: A cancer patient in England is kits. The Department and HPA are currently undertaking eligible to apply for a prescription charge exemption further work to refine this guidance. certificate if he or she is undergoing treatment for The Department has also initiated discussions with manufacturers cancer, the effects of cancer or the effects of cancer on how they can improve the accuracy and specificity of their treatment. However, the application process does not C. difficile testing kits. distinguish between these grounds for exemption. By 915W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 916W the end of 2009, the number of valid prescription A copy of this reply has been sent to Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo charge exemption certificate applications processed by MP, Minister of State for Children, Young People and Families, National Health Service Business Services Authority, and will be placed in the library of both Houses. where cancer was the only medical condition ticked on Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 31 December the FP92A application form, was almost 74,000. 2009: Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as Primary Care Trusts: East of England Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for a response. Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health From 2001 to April 2007 inspection of Cafcass was undertaken by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Court Administration (formerly what discussions he has had with the East of England HM Magistrates Court Service Inspectorate). Ofsted does not Strategic Health Authority on the status of primary have cost data for this period. care trust (PCT) provider organisations within the From April 2007 to mid 2008, Ofsted undertook three inspections PCT; and if he will make a statement. [309888] based on the old Cafcass structure (co-terminous with the nine Government Office regions), using the legacy inspection framework. Phil Hope: None. The Department holds monthly During the summer of 2008 Ofsted developed a new framework meetings with Transforming Community Services leads and methodology for the inspection of Cafcass, which had from each strategic health authority at which issues re-structured into 21 service areas. Each service area will be such as the future provision of community services are inspected every three years. discussed. The costs of this inspection programme to Ofsted in 2007/8 were £435,843. In 2008/9 they were £397,402. Both figures include corporate overheads and development costs, where incurred. The first three year inspection cycle will be completed by August 2011. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES A copy of this reply has been sent to Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo CAFCASS MP, Minister of State for Children, Young People and Families, and will be placed in the library of both Houses. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many (a) family Children Act 1989 court advisers and (b) active self-employed contractors worked for the Children and Family Court Advisory Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for and Support Service at the latest date for which figures Children, Schools and Families on how many are available. [307417] occasions Section 47 statutory interventions under the Children Act 1989 were issued by Essex County Dawn Primarolo: The employment and payment of Council for 16 to 18 year-olds in each of the last five staff are operational matters for CAFCASS. Nationally, years. [308341] as of 11 December 2009, CAFCASS had 1,291 family court advisors and 266 self-employed contractors actively working on cases. Dawn Primarolo: Information on the number of section 47 inquiries carried out by each local authority Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for is not available for individual age groups. Children, Schools and Families (1) how many reviews Ofsted has undertaken in relation to the Children and Children: Adoption Family Court Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS) in each CAFCASS region in the last 12 months; [307484] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many children (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the have been classified as having adoption in their best public purse of each Ofsted inspection of the Children interest in each year since 2001. [305322] and Family Court Advisory and Support Service in each year since such inspections began. [307489] Dawn Primarolo: The information requested is not Dawn Primarolo: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM available. Chief Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the hon. Member and a copy of her reply has been placed Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for in the House Libraries. Children, Schools and Families how many adopted Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 17 December children of each ethnicity adopted in the year ended 2009: 31 March 2009 had waited longer than (a) six, (b) 12, Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as (c) 18, (d) 24, (e) 30, (f) 36, (g) 42, (h) 48, (i) 54 Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for a response. and (j) 60 months to be adopted following the decision In April 2007 the duty to inspect Cafcass passed from Her that adoption was in their best interest. [305326] Majesty’s Inspectorate of Court Administration to Ofsted. From April 2007 to mid 2008, Ofsted undertook three inspections based Dawn Primarolo: The number of looked-after-children on the old Cafcass structure (co-terminous with the nine Government of each ethnicity adopted in the year ending 31 March Office regions). 2009 who had waited longer than (a) six, (b) 12, (c) In December 2008 Ofsted began piloting a new framework for 18, (d) 24, (e) 30, (f) 36, (g) 42, (h) 48, (i) 54 and (j) the inspection of Cafcass. The framework is based on inspection 60 months to be adopted following a local authority of a Cafcass service area, the Cafcass operational business unit, of which there are 21 across England. Ofsted will inspect all the decision that they should be placed for adoption can be Cafcass service areas by August 2011. As at December 2009, found in the following table. The figures shown for the Ofsted has reported on seven service areas, and will report on an time between the local authority decision and the date eighth inspection in early January 2010. of the making of the adoption order are cumulative. 917W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 918W

Looked-after-children adopted during the year by the time between the decision that a child should be placed for adoption and the making of the adoption order, by ethnic origin1, 2, 3, year ending 31 March 2009, coverage: England Number Time between decision that a child should be placed for adoption and date of adoption All children looked after adopted during the Over 6 Over 12 Over 18 Over 24 Over 30 Over 36 Over 42 Over 48 Over 54 Over 60 year months months months months months months months months months months

All children 3,300 3,200 2,500 1,400 760 450 250 150 100 70 40 looked after adopted during the year

Ethnic origin White 2,700 2,600 2,000 1,100 590 350 180 100 70 40 30 Mixed 410 400 340 220 110 70 40 30 20 20 10 Asian or 7060503010———000 Asian British Black or Black 90 90 90 60 40 30 20 — 10 10 10 British Other ethnic 2020101010——0000 groups 1 The waiting time has been calculated as the number of days between the date the LA decide adoption is in the child’s best interest and the date the child is then adopted. 2 These figures are presented on a cumulative basis e.g. a child that is included in the ’Over 12 months’ category has also been included in the ’Over 6 months’ category. 3 Rounding and suppression: To ensure that no individual can be identified from statistical tables, we use conventions for the rounding and suppressionofvery small numbers. At national level numbers have been rounded to the nearest 100 if they exceed 1,000 and to the nearest 10 otherwise. Numbers from 1 to 5 inclusive have been suppressed, being replaced in the table by a (—). It has been necessary to suppress other figures whenever it would be possible to calculate the value of a suppressed number by means of simple arithmetic. The rule applied in these circumstances has been to suppress the next smallest data item provided its value is strictly less than 20. Source: SSDA903.

Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children: Social Services Children, Schools and Families how many adopted children of each age at the time of approval for Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for adoption waited longer than (a) six, (b) 12, (c) 18, Children, Schools and Families what recent estimate he (d) 24, (e) 30, (f) 36, (g) 42, (h) 48, (i) 54 and (j) 60 has made of the average amount of time taken to months to be adopted following the decision that complete an initial assessment of children referred to adoption was in their best interest in each year since children’s social care. [307423] 2001. [305327] Dawn Primarolo: Data on the average amount of time taken to complete an initial assessment of children Dawn Primarolo: The number of looked after children referred to children’s social care are not held centrally. adopted in the years ending 31 March 2001 to 2009, We do however collect data on the percentage of initial who had waited longer than (a) six, (b) 12, (c) 18, (d) assessments completed within seven working days of 24, (e) 30, (f) 36, (g) 42, (h) 48, (i) 54 and (j) 60 referral. In 2008-09 this figure was 72 per cent. months to be adopted following a local authority decision that they should be placed for adoption, by age at the Departmental Furniture time the decision was made that they should be placed for adoption, has been placed in the House Libraries. Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for The figures shown for the time between the local Children, Schools and Families how much his authority decision and the date of the making of the Department has spent on furniture for use in the office adoption order are cumulative. assigned to him since June 2007. [302668]

Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Diana R. Johnson: £1,158.76 has been spent to Children, Schools and Families for how many children acquire additional furniture for the Secretary of State’s in each local authority area adoption was determined office since June 2007. to be in their best interest in the most recent 12 month Departmental Official Cars period for which figures are available; and how many of those children were placed for adoption by (a) their Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for local authority, (b) a private adoption agency and (c) Children, Schools and Families how much expenditure a voluntary adoption agency. [305328] his Department has incurred in respect of official car services for (a) him and (b) each other Minister in his Dawn Primarolo: Information on the number of looked- Department in each quarter since June 2007. [302936] after-children for whom the local authority decision was that they should be placed for adoption is not Ms Diana R. Johnson: For financial year 2007-08, I available. refer the hon. Member to the written ministerial statement 919W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 920W made by the then Secretary of State for Transport were placed with (i) grandparents, (ii) other relatives (Ruth Kelly) on 22 July 2008, Official Report, and (iii) friends of the family in the last 12 months. column 117WS. [305368] For financial year 2008-09, I refer the hon. Member to the written ministerial statement made by hon. Friend Dawn Primarolo: The latest period for which figures the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport are available covers the 12 months to 31 March 2009. (Paul Clark), on 16 July 2009, Official Report, column There were 65,500 children looked after during the year 80WS. ending 31 March 2009 under a foster placement; 10,500 Early Intervention (16 per cent.) of these were looked after by family or friends and 55,000 (84 per cent.) of these were looked Mr. Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, after by other carers. These figures exclude those looked Schools and Families what his policy is on early after under an agreed series of short-term placements. intervention; and if he will make a statement. [307947] Information on the relationship of the foster carer to the child is not collected therefore it is not possible to Dawn Primarolo: It is the Government’s intention to provide the full detail requested. put early intervention and prevention at the heart of Information on the relationship of adopted children children’s services. to their adoptees is not collected centrally by the That is why we set out in the Children’s Plan that Department. by 2010, “we will expect Children’s Trusts to have in place consistent GCSE: Disadvantaged high quality arrangements to provide identification and early intervention for all children and young people who need additional Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for help in relation to their health, education, care and behaviour, Children, Schools and Families in what proportion of including help for their parents as appropriate.” schools in each index of multiple deprivation decile less Over recent years there has been massive investment than 30 per cent. of pupils obtained five A* to C grades to support early intervention. There is now a children’s at GCSE including English and mathematics but centre in every neighbourhood and almost 90 per cent. excluding equivalents in the (a) earliest and (b) most of schools are delivering the ‘core offer’ of extended recent year for which figures are available. [310369] services including childcare, health services and extra- curricular activities. We are also trialling programmes Mr. Coaker: The information can be provided only at such as the Family Nurse Partnerships and Family disproportionate cost. Intervention Programmes in several areas. Home Education We will shortly publish a consultation document on early intervention to help local partners to improve the Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for quality and consistency of support for vulnerable children Children, Schools and Families when his Department and families. will publish its analysis of the responses to its Family Law consultation on the Badman Report on elective home education in England. [310388] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the outcome was Ms Diana R. Johnson: The response to the “Home of the time recording exercise undertaken in 2004 on Education: registration and monitoring proposals”public the time being spent on public and private family law consultation was published on 11 January 2010. It can cases. [308103] be found on the Department’s Consultation Unit website on: Dawn Primarolo: This is an operational matter for http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/consultations/ CAFCASS. I have asked the chief executive of CAFCASS, index.cfm?menu=3&title=Archive%20and%20results Anthony Douglas, to respond by letter to the hon. Member. A copy of the letter will be placed in the Pre-School Education: Finance House Libraries. Foster Care Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what plans he has to Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for extend the free entitlement to early education to two Children, Schools and Families (1) how many kinship year olds who live in families with modest and middle care foster placements there were in each of the last incomes. [305175] 30 years; [305361] (2) how many (a) foster and (b) kinship care foster Dawn Primarolo: The Government will continue to placements there were in each local authority area in make progress on the long-term ambition set out by the each of the last five years. [305366] Prime Minister to extend the offer of free part time nursery places for all two-year-olds whose parents want Dawn Primarolo: Information on the number of foster them. Already over 20,000 two year olds have access to placements by local authority and type of placement free places and the reforms we are making to tax relief for the last five years has been placed in the House for child care vouchers will allow us to go further. Libraries. Further years can only be provided at disproportionate cost. This information is only available Social Services: Leeds from 1992 onwards. John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much Leeds social Children, Schools and Families how many and what services spent on children’s services in each year since proportion of children (a) fostered and (b) adopted 2001. [306931] 921W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 922W

Dawn Primarolo: The available information on how The Ministry of Justice’s statutory powers to impose much Leeds local authority spent on children’s social administrative penalties are confined to the Legal Services care in each year since 2001 is shown in the following Complaints Commissioner (LSCC, an office of the table: Ministry of Justice) and the Legal Services Board (LSB, Gross expenditure on children’s services from 2001-02 to 2007-08 an executive non-departmental public body). Gross expenditure (£000) The Legal Services Complaints Commissioner (LSCC)

2001-02 58,616 The Legal Services Complaints Commissioner (LSCC) 2002-03 62,347 had the power under section 52 of the Access to Justice 2003-04 70,449 Act 1999 to require the Law Society to provide information 2004-05 77,987 on how it deals with complaints, to make recommendations 2005-06 81,675 about the complaints system, and to set targets for 2006-07 98,130 complaints handling. In addition, the Commissioner 2007-08 107,542 previously had the power to require the Law Society to Notes: submit a plan for improved complaints handling and to 1. Responsibility for collecting financial information on local authority spend levy a penalty on the Law Society if it failed to deliver on children’s social function was passed to the DCSF in 2008-09. an adequate plan or failed in the delivery of that plan. 2. Figures used in this PQ answer were obtained from the Department of Health. These powers were reduced in April 2009 in preparation Supervised Homes for the closure of the Commissioner’s office in March 2010. The maximum penalty that could be imposed was Mr. Willetts: To ask the Secretary of State for the lower of £1 million and 1 per cent. of the annual Children, Schools and Families how many places in income of the Law Society. supervised homes were available for 16 and 17 year- olds in each month of the last two years. [308793] In 2006-07 the Commissioner exercised this power and imposed a penalty of £250,000, later reduced to Dawn Primarolo: This information is not collected £220,000. In 2007-2008 the Commissioner announced centrally. that she was considering imposing a penalty of £275,000 Written Questions: Government Responses for failure to meet her targets. However, following a series of discussions with the Law Society, a regulatory Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for settlement was agreed which meant that the penalty was Children, Schools and Families when he plans to invested in client care measures by the Law Society. (a) (b) (c) answer Question 3202667, 302668, 302936, The Legal Services Board (LSB) (d) 303105 and (e) 303139, tabled on 25 November 2009. [310373] The new Legal Services Board (LSB), regulating legal services provision by approved regulators, became fully Ms Diana R. Johnson: PQ 302668 and 302936 have operational from 1 January 2010. The LSB has a range been answered today. PQ 303105, 303139 and 302667 of enforcement powers available to it under sections will be answered in due course. 31-48 of the Legal Services Act 2007. Its power to I apologise for the delay in answering these parliamentary impose a financial penalty on approved regulators under questions. section 37 of the Act is subject to the requirement that the LSB makes rules prescribing the maximum financial penalty. The LSB has prescribed the maximum financial JUSTICE penalty it may impose on an approved regulator as 5 per Departmental Fines cent. of an approved regulator’s regulatory income for Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice its most recent accounting period. what powers (a) his Department and (b) each of its All other penalties levied by the department or its agencies and non-departmental public bodies has to agencies are through the courts. impose administrative penalties; what the statutory basis is for each such power; and how much (i) his Departmental Travel Department and its predecessors and (ii) each of its agencies and non-departmental public bodies has Mrs. Laing: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice recovered in administrative penalties in each of the last what mode of transport Ministers and officials of his 10 years for which figures are available. [309295] Department used to travel to each of the deliberative Mr. Straw: Administrative financial penalties arise events on British values; and in what class those who where a department has the authority to charge a travelled to such events by rail travelled. [306702] financial penalty without the need to resort to court proceedings. They exclude interest charged on late payment Mr. Wills: The means of transport and costs are set of invoices. out in the following table.

Table showing the mode of transport Ministers and MoJ officials used to travel to each of the deliberative events (including details of what class they travelled to each event) MoJ Type of class Date Minister Officials Mode of travel travelled Costs to MoJ (£)

Regional events

London 17 October 2009 1 — Return taxi/London underground n/a 72.64 London 17 October 2009 — 6 Overground rail/London n/a 1— underground/bicycle 923W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 924W

Table showing the mode of transport Ministers and MoJ officials used to travel to each of the deliberative events (including details of what class they travelled to each event) MoJ Type of class Date Minister Officials Mode of travel travelled Costs to MoJ (£)

Sheffield 24 October 2009 1 — Car—Government spokesperson n/a 0 was local MP and was given a lift to the event. Sheffield 24 October 2009 — 4 Rail Standard class 357.50 returns

Cardiff 24 October 2009 1 — Ministerial car n/a 0 Cardiff 24 October 2009 — 3 Rail Standard class 215.00 returns

Edinburgh 31 October 2009 1 — Ministerial car to and from n/a 0 Glasgow Edinburgh 31 October 2009 — 3 Plane and rail (three return Plane economy 699.77 flights plus Gatwick Express class returns. Rail train for two officials). standard class returns.

Gateshead 31 October 2009 2——— — — Gateshead 31 October 2009 — 3 Plane and rail (two x MoJ Rail—standard 542.00 officials travelled by rail. one x class returns. MoJ official took return flight to Plane—Euro Newcastle from Heathrow). class.

Reconvened events Gateshead 21 November 2009 1 — Personal car n/a 0 Gateshead 21 November 2009 — 5 Plane and rail—(two x MoJ Rail—three x 1,015.19 officials—one way flights to standard class Newcastle—return trip from returns. One x Newcastle to London by train). standard class one way, one x first class one way. Flights—one x world traveller/ one x economy.

Birmingham 28 November 2009 1 — Rail First class returns 61.50 Birmingham 28 November 2009 — 5 Rail Three x standard 406.00 and two x first class returns. Total costs — — — — — 3,369.60 1 No travel costs claimed as officials used season tickets. 2 No Minister.

Elections each general election in the UK. The Government will study this carefully and respond to any issues that emerge. Mr. Pickles: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment has been made of the potential effect on levels of electoral fraud of general election counts Electoral Register taking place the day after polling. [308305] Mr. Pickles: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the reasons are for the time taken to implement Mr. Wills: Under section 10 of the Political Parties, the CORE electoral registration programme. [308406] Elections and Referendums Act 2000, the Electoral Commission is responsible for producing advice and Mr. Wills: A detailed specification for the Co-ordinated guidance for electoral administrators to follow at UK On-line Record of Electors (CORE) has been completed. parliamentary elections. The Electoral Commission has However, the Government have paused the CORE project issued advice for (acting) returning officers that security to allow time for the detailed arrangements for supporting procedures must be in place for the storage of ballot the implementation of individual electoral registration boxes and the ballot papers, where there is a break in to be developed, since individual electoral registration proceedings or where they have decided to count on may impact on the design of the CORE system. In the Friday. The decision as to the timing of the count at an meantime, work has continued on the implementation election is for the relevant returning officer. of electoral registration data standards. I wrote to the Under section 5 of the Political Parties, Elections and Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Scottish Referendums Act 2000, the Electoral Commission is National Parties and Plaid Cymru on 24 July 2009 required to produce a report on the administration of setting out these considerations in more detail. 925W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 926W

Electoral Register: Expenditure This expenditure will produce benefits for electoral registration generally, by improving the accuracy and Mr. Pickles: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice utility of the data within the local authority, and there what the cost to the public purse of the (a) LASER are also potential benefits for the development of individual and (b) CORE electoral registration projects have been registration, irrespective of whether or not CORE goes to date. [308816] ahead.

Mr. Wills: I refer the hon. Member to my previous Family Law Act 1996 answer of 26 November 2009, Official Report, column 1653W. Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for It is not possible to accurately quantify the cost of Justice how many applications for an occupational the LASER project as not all the information is available. order under sections 33 to 41 of the Family Law This project pre-dated the CORE electoral registration Act 1996 have been (a) made and (b) granted in each project and was managed by the former Office of the year since their introduction. [310380] Deputy Prime Minister. No capital costs were incurred. The cost of the CORE project to date, excluding staff Bridget Prentice: The following tables show the number costs, is £3,760,981. The increase since my previous of occupation orders applied for, and the number of answer is attributable to £676,333 grant in aid for local occupation orders granted, in each court area in each authorities to support the implementation of electoral year since 2003. The data are taken from the HMCS registration data standards and £5,000 for the market FamilyMan database and the applications figures do testing of possible procurement options. not include applications for arrest warrants.

Occupation orders applied for in England and Wales, by court Area, 2003-08 Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Avon and Somerset 216 230 215 243 215 180 Bedfordshire, Essex and Herts. 680 547 575 493 451 413 Birmingham, Coventry, Solihull and Warwickshire 330 345 258 225 220 227 Black Country, Staffordshire and West Mercia 476 453 449 377 329 294 Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk 406 385 391 343 344 309 Cheshire and Merseyside 413 369 334 314 227 230 Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria 686 625 591 646 532 384 Cumbria and Lancashire 354 316 325 323 260 199 Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire 245 217 197 182 142 125 Devon and Cornwall 465 405 385 355 360 299 Dorset, Gloucestershire and Wiltshire 419 404 372 284 247 283 Greater Manchester 311 274 292 300 232 188 Hampshire and Isle of Wight Humber and South Yorkshire 424 369 383 389 328 288 Kent 523 456 402 330 323 312 Lincolnshire, Leicestershire and Rutland and Northamptonshire 326 304 270 215 244 250 London Civil and Family 268 292 273 242 247 260 Mid and West Wales 2,970 2,474 2,590 2,419 2,098 2,021 North and West Yorkshire 138 106 109 99 95 88 North Wales 593 573 576 650 618 501 South East Wales 133 101 104 70 115 97 Surrey and Sussex 524 444 468 445 370 402 Thames Valley 487 400 352 336 300 295 England and Wales 11,560 10,239 10,042 9,384 8,351 7,738

Occupation orders made in England and Wales, by court area, 2003-08 Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Avon and Somerset 155 170 149 166 161 123 Bedfordshire, Essex and Herts. 419 349 372 279 320 324 Birmingham, Coventry, Solihull and Warwickshire 223 283 240 239 247 157 Black Country Staffordshire and West Mercia 545 447 425 373 304 185 Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk 267 301 336 295 292 184 Cheshire and Merseyside 435 374 418 287 192 148 Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria 719 551 615 710 513 242 Cumbria and Lancashire 417 446 427 306 281 147 Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire 184 116 111 131 151 92 Devon and Cornwall 450 380 366 294 325 171 Dorset, Gloucestershire and Wiltshire 473 401 306 241 252 247 Greater Manchester 310 248 263 245 184 115 Hampshire and Isle of Wight 257 265 294 291 233 123 Humber and South Yorkshire 409 302 298 253 211 175 927W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 928W

Occupation orders made in England and Wales, by court area, 2003-08 Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Kent 272 285 217 169 178 162 Lincolnshire, Leicestershire and Rutland and Northamptonshire 268 332 269 288 278 159 London Civil and Family 3,175 2,489 2, 224 1,965 1,627 1,377 Mid and West Wales 115 68 80 72 92 75 North and West Yorkshire 437 417 464 543 437 328 North Wales 124 90 98 52 47 62 South East Wales 181 157 113 103 95 61 Surrey and Sussex 472 350 422 349 267 151 Thames Valley 486 347 378 328 258 291 England and Wales 10,793 9,168 8,885 7,979 6,945 5,099

Area level figures are not available before 2003. However, Maria Eagle: Figures on the number of prisoners the following table gives, for each year from 1998 to convicted of murder since 1997 who have been placed in 2002, the most recently published national figures. open conditions is not available centrally and could be Occupation orders applied for, and made, in England and Wales obtained only at disproportionate cost by accessing the between 1998 and 2002 individual record of each such prisoner. Applications made Orders made Transfer of any prisoner to open conditions will only take place if continued detention in closed conditions is 1998 11,147 9,023 no longer necessary for the protection of the public. 1999 9,757 8,319 Open conditions allow prisoners to find work, re-establish 2000 10,295 9,736 family ties and reintegrate into the community. All 2001 10,692 9,789 these are essential components for successful resettlement 2002 11,924 11,763 and an important factor in protecting the public. Data on absconds from open prison by index offence General Election 2010: Young People type have been recorded centrally since 1 April 2004. Between April 2004 and November 2009, 69 prisoners convicted of murder have absconded from open prisons. Mr. Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Three of these prisoners are recorded as still being at what steps have been taken to encourage 18 to 24 large. year-olds to vote in the next general election. [309860] The rate of abscond from open prisons continues to fall and absconds are now at their lowest level since Mr. Wills: Section 69 of the Electoral Administration centralised reporting of this type of incident began in Act 2006 places local electoral officers under a duty to 1995. encourage participation at statutory elections. The Hotels Government have established the Electoral Participation Fund to support electoral officers undertaking novel Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and innovative projects, including activities to support how many hotel room nights were booked by officials the participation of young people. in (a) his Department and (b) its agencies in each year In addition, under section 13 of the Political Parties, since 2007; and how much (i) his Department and (ii) Elections and Referendums Act 2000, the Electoral its agencies spent on fees of third party agents in Commission has a statutory responsibility to run relation to booking hotel accommodation in each such public awareness campaigns to promote voter year. [309319] registration and to provide information on electoral Mr. Straw: The information requested is set out as events. I have been informed by the Electoral Commission follows: that they will be running a public awareness campaign Number of rooms booked in the lead up to the next general election to encourage people to register to vote. By selecting particular media The number of hotel rooms booked by the Ministry channels, the campaign will be targeted at groups less and its agencies can only be determined at disproportionate likely to be on the electoral register, particularly 18 to cost. Although bookings should normally be made 24 year-olds. The campaign will include television, radio through contracted booking agents, they may also be and press advertising, along with work on social networking made by individuals directly with the costs being reimbursed websites. Through its partnership grants programme, through expense claims or met through the Government the Electoral Commission has also funded other Procurement Card. To determine the number of hotel organisations working to increase democratic participation night rooms booked by individuals directly would involve among young people, including Banardos, the Prince’s examination of thousands of individual claims and Trust and UK Youth Parliament. statements held locally across the department and its agencies. All hotel bookings by Ministers and civil servants are Homicide undertaken in accordance with the Ministerial Code and the Civil Service Management Code respectively. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for The annual departmental resource accounts disclose Justice how many of those convicted of murder since expenditure on “travel, subsistence and hospitality” in 1997 have been placed in open prisons; and how many notes 10 (administration expenditure) and 11 (programme such offenders have escaped. [302916] expenditure). Resource accounts were published by the 929W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 930W

Ministry of Justice for 2007-08 and 2008-09 and prior Legal Services Commission: Chesterfield to that by the Ministry’s predecessor, the Department for Constitutional Affairs. All published accounts can be found at: Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/ Justice how many Legal Services Commission matter Fees paid to booking agents starts for (a) welfare benefit, (b) housing, (c) employment, (d) debt, (e) immigration, (f) The majority of hotel bookings are arranged through community care and (g) family law cases in travel management companies employed by the Ministry Chesterfield were given in each of the last five years; to obtain best value for money options. All other and how many such starts are being offered in the expenditure is incurred only on production of valid current rounds of bidding. [310375] receipts. The Ministry has contracts with two designated booking agents working for different parts of the business. Booking Bridget Prentice: The information requested is shown agents are contracted to secure the best value for money in the following tables. rates available. The Ministry does not pay fees directly Matter starts for the last five years to either service provider. The booking agents are remunerated instead through commission paid by the Figures for the number of new matter starts allocated hotels themselves. The Ministry does not have any in the categories specified for the last five years are details about the amount of commission earned by shown in the table. The figures shown include all solicitor booking agents acting in its behalf. and not-for-profit offices in Chesterfield.

Data 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Community care 15 7 0 0 0 Debt 260 286 327 362 413 Employment 85 107 222 312 351 Housing 229 270 331 376 550 Immigration asylum 077812 Immigration non-asylum 12 30 33 47 54 Family 1,469 1,257 1,171 1,359 1,199 Welfare benefit 281 333 254 197 198

Due to the way in which the LSC contracted with Non-molestation Orders not-for-profit offices prior to October 2007 the figures included for these providers prior to that time are actual cases started rather than matter starts allocated. Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Matter starts for the current bid rounds Justice how many applications for a non-molestation order have been (a) made and (b) granted in each The new Civil Contract is due to begin in October 2010. court area in each year since their introduction. The bid rounds for Immigration Services opened on 30 November 2009. New matter starts are now being [310379] allocated by procurement area rather than bid zone. For immigration services, Chesterfield is included in the Bridget Prentice: The following tables show the Midlands and East of England region. 9,340 asylum number of non-molestation orders applied for, and the new matter starts and 7,990 non-asylum new matter number of non-molestation orders granted, in each starts have been made available in the current tender. court area in each year since 2003. The data are taken Bid rounds for all other civil services are due to open from the HMCS FamilyMan database and the in February. Future allocations are in the process of applications figures do not include applications for being finalised and will be published in February 2010. arrest warrants.

Non-molestation orders applied for in England and Wales, by court area, 2003-08 Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Avon and Somerset 509 459 456 499 437 481 Bedfordshire. Essex and Herts. 864 760 771 685 707 851 Birmingham, Coventry Solihull and Warwickshire 543 565 456 436 393 446 Black Country, Staffordshire and West Mercia 792 778 728 674 564 626 Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk 532 600 580 522 531 528 Cheshire and Merseyside 608 571 512 500 433 516 Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria 1,319 1,221 1,198 1,342 1,231 1,285 Cumbria and Lancashire 585 570 588 592 575 553 Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire 395 332 309 317 316 340 Devon and Cornwall 689 562 501 479 474 428 Dorset, Gloucestershire and Wiltshire 646 581 497 444 411 533 Greater Manchester 591 545 531 545 431 402 931W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 932W

Non-molestation orders applied for in England and Wales, by court area, 2003-08 Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Hampshire and Isle of Wight 544 545 529 518 501 462 Humber and South Yorkshire 1,084 924 910 868 806 751 Kent 503 482 424 341 364 472 Lincolnshire, Leicestershire and Rutland and Northamptonshire 404 451 411 391 411 471 London Civil and Family 4,578 4,624 4,825 4,616 4,272 4,747 Mid and West Wales 215 149 164 150 159 136 North and West Yorkshire 1,264 1,244 1,357 1,418 1,426 1,599 North Wales 199 160 157 125 110 147 South East Wales 262 251 184 170 196 181 Surrey and Sussex 748 635 705 691 610 695 Thames Valley 675 565 539 562 508 491 England and Wales 18,599 17,574 17,332 16,885 15,871 17,141

Non-molestation orders made in England and Wales, by court area, 2003-08 Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Avon and Somerset 578 523 524 561 491 541 Bedfordshire, Essex and Herts. 851 795 787 715 772 946 Birmingham, Coventry, Solihull and Warwickshire 505 734 671 613 600 537 Black Country, Staffordshire and West Mercia 1,153 1,121 1,012 969 731 773 Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk 760 837 831 808 742 647 Cheshire and Merseyside 934 777 793 695 561 596 Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria 1,977 1,839 1,843 2,015 1,783 1,541 Cumbria and Lancashire 1,018 1,055 1,084 908 856 792 Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire 506 406 390 434 422 413 Devon and Cornwall 1,044 793 614 548 522 417 Dorset, Gloucestershire and Wiltshire 827 758 611 609 564 627 Greater Manchester 862 745 720 722 503 374 Hampshire and Isle of Wight 519 583 569 565 501 350 Humber and South Yorkshire 1,075 1,047 1,098 1,051 919 707 Kent 659 666 580 466 453 445 Lincolnshire, Leicestershire and Rutland and Northamptonshire 511 579 563 571 534 321 London Civil and Family 6,762 6,285 6,046 5,752 5,253 5,707 Mid and West Wales 299 189 184 172 199 132 North and West Yorkshire 1,823 1,779 1,757 1,958 1,814 1,987 North Wales 333 264 261 140 125 133 South East Wales 305 301 198 205 189 153 Surrey and Sussex 983 813 882 796 635 655 Thames Valley 944 834 828 747 600 573 England and Wales 25,233 23,723 22,851 22,020 19,819 19,367

Area level figures are not available before 2003. However, England and Wales, as at 30 June 2009 the last date at the following table gives, for each year from 1998 to which data are available: 2002, the most recently published national figures. Number Non-molestation orders applied for, and made, in England and Wales between 1998 and 2002 Askham Grange 10 Applications made Orders made Ford 25 1998 18,153 19,365 Hollesley Bay 20 1999 16,908 18,465 Kirkham 30 2000 15,734 18,293 Leyhill 50 2001 17,590 20,968 North Sea Camp 25 2002 19,131 24,999 Prescoed 15 Spring Hill 15 Open Prisons Standford Hill 10 Sudbury 60 Sutton Park 5 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Total 260 pursuant to the answer of 2 December 2009, Official Report, column 800W, on open prisons, how many The total number of prisoners convicted of murder prisoners convicted of murder are being held at each and in prison was around 4,900 at the end of June 2009. open prison. [306327] The figure in the open estate is therefore 5 per cent. of the total. There have been open prisons since 1936 and Mr. Straw: The following table gives the numbers of they are widely accepted as the most effective means of prisoners detained for murder at each open prison in ensuring prisoners are tested in the community before 933W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 934W they are released. To release prisoners directly from a Maria Eagle: The Ministry of Defence’s Defence closed prison without the resettlement benefits of the Analytical Services and Advice has undertaken an exercise open estate would undoubtedly lead to higher levels of to match Ministry of Justice data on prisoners in England post-release reoffending. and Wales with the MoD database of service leavers to Prisoners are assessed objectively in a process looking establish the numbers of armed forces veterans in custody. at all aspects of their offending behaviour, actions they The analysis indicates that almost 3 per cent. of the have taken to reduce their likelihood of reoffending and prison population in England and Wales were former the risk they pose to the public. They are placed in the armed forces personnel. We are exploring the feasibility lowest security category consistent with their assessed and cost of extending the data matching to encompass risk. Only prisoners placed in the lowest security category those subject to community supervision. (D) may be allocated to open conditions. If their behaviour Prisons: Disciplinary Proceedings becomes a cause for concern, they can be moved back to more secure conditions. Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prisoners convicted of murderer serving life sentences how many investigations took place under Prison and other indeterminate sentence prisoners will be Service Order 1300 in each year since 2000; and what transferred from closed to open prison conditions only offences triggered such investigations. [308959] following the acceptance of a Parole Board recommendation to the Secretary of State. Before making Maria Eagle: Information on the number of formal such a recommendation, the Parole Board must be investigations conducted under Prison Service Order satisfied that the case meets the criteria set out in the 1300 in each year since 2000, and the categories (including Directions to the Parole Board under section 32(6) of disciplinary offences) of these investigations, is provided the Criminal Justice Act 1991, of which the risk of in the following table1. abscond is a central factor. HR processes including investigations have been Transfer of any prisoner to open conditions will only centralised and are managed by the NOMS National take place if continued detention in closed conditions is Shared Service Centre (SSC). The former Investigation no longer necessary for the protection of the public. Support Section (ISS) started to transfer its role to the Open conditions allow prisoners to find work, re-establish SSC in January 2008 on a region by region basis. This family ties and reintegrate into the community. All was completed by February 2009. these are essential components for successful resettlement and an important factor in protecting the public. During this time the business took the opportunity to review the categories under which investigations were These figures have been drawn from administrative recorded with a view to improving the data held. As IT systems which, as with any large scale recording such at the point of transfer to the SSC a number of system, are subject to possible errors with data entry new categories were created under which investigations and processing. Totals for each prison have been rounded could be registered. Therefore, any fluctuations shown to the nearest five and the grand total to the nearest 10; in the table, particularly significant increases or decreases separately rounded sub-totals may not add to the rounded between 2008 and 2009, are a result of the creation of total. the new categories and improvements made by the business in the collation of such data from the NOMS Prisoners: Ex-servicemen estate. The overall trend relating to the total numbers of formally registered investigations has remained fairly David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for consistent for at least six years. Justice when his Department plans to produce statistics 1 This information is based on data extracted from a central on the number of former servicemen and women who investigations database and data provided by the National Offender are currently either serving a custodial sentence or the Management Service—National Shared Service Centre (SSC) subject of community supervision. [308851] during December 2009.

Categories 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

Absence from duty 9 40 41 73 63 54 39 60 65 4 Abuseofsickleave 00000000021 Abusive language/behaviour 00000000639 towards prisoners Abusive language/behaviour 00000000754 towards staff Abusive language/behaviour 0000000012 towards the public/visitors Action or negligence which 0000000026150 caused/contributed to the loss, damage or injury to the service/ individual Allegations of a racist nature 24 77 57 90 84 71 73 80 69 4 Allegations of a sectarian nature 0000000000 Allegations of a sexual/sexist 13 36 26 60 42 39 19 27 27 3 nature Any other serious incident not 301225581640010 covered above Assault (no prisoner involvement) 1 8 14 15 13 13 16 22 10 6 Assaultonstaff 0000000058 935W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 936W

Categories 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

Assault of the public/visitor 0000000023 Assault on prisoner 43 121 125 232 122 102 72 93 109 136 Asleeponduty 0000000029 Attempted escape 1 9 5 12 9 13 5960 Attempted suicide/self harm 0 4 6 12710030 Barricade or prevention of access 0001330100 Bomb threats or explosions 0000100010 Breach of flexible working hours 0000000003 procedures Breaches of security 10 47 58 115 123 97 109 157 187 173 Bringing discredit on the Prison 0000000018 Service Circumstances surrounding a 3060691268361240 death in custody Concerted indiscipline by 15815982431 prisoners Corruption 0000000012 Death of a prisoner from natural 52339353982100 causes or death of any other person Deliberate and very serious 0014220520 damage to prison property Discovery or presence of a 0021000100 firearm, ammunition or CS spray Duplicate 0 0 0 60 10 22 23 13 5 0 Escape from a closed 41217161276330 establishment Escape from an escort 5 7 8 18 11 8 5930 Exploitation of working 0000000011 relationship Failure to obey lawful and 00000000539 reasonable order or written instruction Failure to report misconduct of 0000000007 others Financial affairs 0000000017 Fraud 12 17 12 46 49 28 37 26 42 0 Harassment—staff 16 64 57 101 111 61 47 49 85 117 Hostage 0 9 7 7″ 352410 Inappropriate behaviour between 0 2 21 84 62 112 87 104 136 6 staff Inappropriate relationships 13 26 35 77 60 63 66 56 44 52 Inappropriate relationships with a 0000000001 prison visitor/relative of a prisoner Inappropriate treatment of 5 2 28 84 118 66 70 108 124 7 prisoners Investigation suspended/void 5 61 97 89 41 116 116 135 112 1 Key or lock compromise 15 47 49 87 71 62 74 78 85 2 Making/prompting false 00000000114 statements Membership of a racist 0000000015 organisation Misuse of Information 0128353519394968 Technology Negligence likely to endanger the 0000000022148 security of the establishment/ escape of a prisoner Non/poor performance of duties 0 2 23 100 128 232 202 155 114 6 Policecaution 000000001537 Poor time keeping 0000000001 Racial harassment 00000000650 Refusing an order 0 2 9 20 36 17 23 28 20 1 Release in error 1 8 10 21 16 17 11 12 9 0 Roofclimbing 00310351410 Serious allegations against senior 31415240280 staff member Sexual harassment/assault 00000001625 Significant drug find (not positive 0110113210 MDT result) Staff on criminal charges not 4211460505151738463 covered above 937W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 938W

Categories 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

Theft 4 9 22 46 37 22 30 11 34 49 Trafficking 3 5 11 6- 13 20 28 36 17 15 Unauthorised absence (AWOL) or 00000000857 lateness Unauthorised disclosure of non- 315357313220 protectively marked information to a 3rd party in breach of professional confidentiality Unauthorised disclosure of 20010755161417 protectively marked information to a third party Unauthorised secondary 0156151607613 employment Unfit for duty 0 5 7 12 12 2 10 20 2 1 Unprofessional conduct 0000000037202 Total 262 883 948 1,850 1,516 1,401 1,267 1,455 1,642 1,638 Notes: 1. Information has been collated according to the calendar year 1 January through 31 December. 2. Since 1 April 2004 the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman (PPO) registers, investigates and produces reports about all deaths in prison custody. 3. A number of new ‘categories’ were created by the SSC during 2008-09 and account for the nil returns in a number of categories between 2000-07.

Rendition Table 1: One year reoffending rates for offenders aged under 18 discharged from custody, 2000, 2002-07 Number of offences per Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Cohort Number of offenders 100 offenders if he will now respond to the proposals put forward by the hon. Member for Chichester for draft legislation on 2003 Q1 786 442.5 extraordinary rendition. [310113] 2004 Q1 815 414.8 2005 Q1 844 409.5 Mr. Straw: I wrote to the hon. Member for Chichester 2006 Q1 817 404.0 (Mr. Tyrie) on 14 December in response to proposals 2007 Q1 778 359.0 contained in a consultation paper by the all party parliamentary group to tighten the criminal law with Please note that reoffending data are not available for respect to the practice of extraordinary rendition. I said 2001 due to a problem with archived data on court then that I had asked officials across Government to orders. Since it will not substantially increase the knowledge study the consultation paper carefully, and added that it on the current-progress on reoffending, no resources would be helpful to see any responses to the consultation have been allocated to fix this problem. as we can feed those into that work. I have today placed For information on the latest juvenile re-offending a copy of my letter of 14 December in the Libraries of statistics please consult: both Houses. http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/reoffending- Reoffenders: Young People iuveniles-2007.pdf

Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Road Safety Act 2006 Justice pursuant to the answer of 5 January 2010, Official Report, column 48W, on young offender institutes, how many re-offences were committed by Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for young people released from custody in each year since Justice (1) how many people have been (a) arrested for, 2000. [310260] (b) charged with and (c) convicted of causing death by careless driving under the Road Safety Act 2006 in Maria Eagle: Juvenile reoffending covers those aged each year since the Act came into force; [302769] 10 to 17. A release from custody could be from a Secure (2) how many people have been (a) arrested for, (b) Training Centre, a Secure Children’s Home or a Young charged with and (c) convicted of causing death by Offender Institution. It is not possible to separate out dangerous driving in each of the last five years. the figures for the different kinds of establishments. [302770] Table 1 presents the juvenile custody reoffending rates from 2000-07. The frequency rate (number of Maria Eagle: The Home Office collect data on arrests offences per 100 offenders) is based on the actual number for recorded crime (notifiable offences) broken down at of offences the cohort committed during the one-year a main offence group level only, covering categories follow up period which resulted in a conviction at court such as violence against the person and robbery. Due to or caution. The actual proven one-year frequency the way the data are collected and held, it is not possible reoffending rate is produced by calculating the number separately to identify the number of arrests made for of proven reoffences per 100 offenders. death by careless or dangerous driving. Table 1: One year reoffending rates for offenders aged under 18 discharged from The Road Safety Act 2006 came into force on 18 August custody, 2000, 2002-07 2008. Court proceedings data for 2008 are planned for Number of offences per Cohort Number of offenders 100 offenders publication on 28 January 2010. Information showing the number of defendants 2000 Q1 912 482.1 proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty 2002 Q1 959 465.9 at all courts for causing death by dangerous driving in 939W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 940W

England and Wales from 2003 to 2007 (latest available) These figures have been drawn from administrative can be viewed in the following table. IT systems which, as with any large scale recording The Ministry of Justice do not collect charging data, system, are subject to possible errors with data entry proceeded against data have been provided in lieu. and processing. Defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for causing death by dangerous driving1, England and Wales, 2003-072, 3 Youth Custody Number Proceeded against Found guilty Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for 2003 299 233 Justice how many accommodation units there are in 2004 287 241 each (a) secure children’s home, (b) secure training 2005 273 255 centre and (c) young offender institution; how many 2006 269 223 young offenders each unit accommodates; and how 2007 276 233 many staff work in each unit. [308813] 1 Under Section 1 of the 1988 Road Traffic Act as added by section 1 of the 1991 Road Traffic Act. Maria Eagle: The following tables show the number 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal of accommodation units at each secure children’s home offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the (SCH), secure training centre (STC) and young offender heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or institution (YOI), the capacity of each establishment more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory and the total staff numbers in each establishment. maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Most SCHs which accommodate young people sentenced complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted or remanded by the courts also accept young people in from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection the care of a local authority who are placed there on processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those welfare grounds. As the two groups of young people are data are used. Source: accommodated together, in the same units, the table Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. shows the total capacity for homes and total staffing numbers. SCHs which accommodate only young people Shoplifting: Sentencing placed on welfare grounds are not included. It is not possible to provide separate staffing figures Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for for under-18 YOIs or to disaggregate figures for units Justice what recent representation he has received on sited with over-21 establishments. The table shows data sentencing policy for people convicted of offences of for all establishments that accommodate 15-17 year theft from shops. [309316] olds or 18-20 year olds, either on separate sites or co-located on split sites. Mr. Straw: We have received no recent representations The data has been supplied by the Youth Justice on sentencing policy for people convicted of offences of Board and the National Offender Management Service theft from shops. In December 2008, following full and have been drawn from administrative IT systems, public consultation, the independent Sentencing guidelines which, as with any large-scale recording system, are Council issued definitive guidelines on theft and burglary subject to possible errors with data entry and processing in a building other than a dwelling. and may be subject to change over time. Secure Children’s Homes Young Offenders: Community Orders Total capacity of establishment Total number of Number of (inc. welfare staff at Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for units places) establishment Justice what proportion of young offenders given a community sentence have (a) breached that order and Aldine House 1 8 21 (b) received a custodial sentence as a result in each Aycliffe 4 38 135 month of the last three years. [308786] Barton Moss 3 20 85 Clayfields 3 18 55 Maria Eagle: Data on breaches of community sentences East Moor 3 36 115 by under-18s is not available centrally and will not be Hillside 3 18 83 published until improvements have been made to the Lincolnshire 1 9 49 submissions of this data to the Ministry of Justice. Red Bank 3 29 130 Therefore it is not possible to provide the proportion of Swanwick 2 16 43 young offenders who receive a custodial sentence for Vinney Green 2 24 86 Note: breaching a community sentence. The data for this table have been provided by the YJB. Published data shows that there were 2,139 receptions of offenders aged 15 to 24 into prison establishments in Secure Training Centres Total number of England and Wales in 2008 as a result of community Number of Total capacity of staff at sentence breaches. units establishment establishment

This information can be found in 6.12 of Offender Rainsbrook 13 87 255 Management Caseload Statistics 2008, a copy of which Medway 16 76 275 has been placed in the House of Commons Library and Oakhill 8 80 245 which can also be found at the following website: Hassockfield 7 52 180 http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ Note: prisonandprobation.htm The data for this table have been provided by the YJB 941W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 942W

Young Offender Institutions Business: Bexley Total capacity of establishment Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, (inc. all Total number Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Number 15-20 year of staff at many businesses in the London Borough of Bexley 1 1,2 Category of units old places) establishment have received a health check from Business Link. Ashfield YP 7 357 439 [308451] (contracted) Aylesbury YO 7 422 308 Ms Rosie Winterton: 90 businesses in the London Brinsford Y07YP 9 544 403 borough of Bexley have received a health check from Castington Y07YP 7 408 385 Business Link in London from November 2008 to Cookham YP 3 108 228 November 2009. Wood Business: Leeds Deerbolt YO 9 513 352 Feltham YO/YP 16 662 740 John Battle: To ask the Minister of State, Glen Parva YO 10 808 473 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Hindley YP 5 390 447 many small businesses in (a) Leeds and (b) Leeds Huntercombe YP 5 365 285 West constituency have applied for financial assistance Lancaster YO 4 530 395 Farms under the (i) Enterprise Finance Guarantee scheme Northallerton YO 2 251 136 and (ii) Capital Enterprise scheme since their inception; [305987] Portland YO 8 555 392 and how many such applications were granted. Reading YO 4 253 189 Ms Rosie Winterton: As of 9 December, 79 small Rochester YO 8 724 463 businesses within Leeds have been offered loans under Stoke Heath YO/YP 7 692 445 the Enterprise Finance Guarantee totalling £8.6 million. Swinfen Hall YO 9 654 398 Within the constituency of Leeds West seven businesses Thorn Cross YO 6 310 206 have been offered loans totalling £0.43 million. Warren Hill YP 5 214 242 Businesses may apply for a loan from any one of the Werrington YP 3 162 177 participating lenders who will assess which form of Wetherby YP 7 408 370 lending, including the Enterprise Finance Guarantee, is 1 YO = Young offender establishment (18-20 year-olds), YP = Young people establishment (15-17 year-olds) most appropriate. We do not hold figures for those 2 Headcount (part-time staff count as one) businesses which are instead offered a normal commercial Note: The data in this table have been provided by NOMS. loan, or are rejected for failing to meet the lender’s commercial criteria. As of 9 December, with respect to £75 million Capital for Enterprise Fund equity scheme, the appointed fund BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS managers have so far made offers totalling £73.2 million to 47 businesses. 11 businesses have accepted the terms Broadband of the funding offered with a total value of £17.0 million. 12 businesses have received investment totalling Bill Wiggin: To ask the Minister of State, £17.7 million, including two in the Yorkshire and Humber Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what region. I am not providing a breakdown by parliamentary estimate he has made of the average speed of constituency or local authority as this could make it broadband services available in rural areas. [304042] possible to identify the individual companies that have received support. Mr. Timms: This Department has not made an estimate Caparo Group of the average speed of broadband services available in rural areas. However, Ofcom’s UK Broadband Speeds Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Minister of State, 2009 report (published July 2009) indicated that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills with average download speed in rural areas was 3.3 Mbps. which companies of the Caparo Group his Department holds contracts. [303106] Broadband: Wales Mr. McFadden: Central BIS records indicate that the Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Minister of State, Department holds no contracts with Caparo Group Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how companies. much funding from (a) the public purse and (b) the An element of historic former-DIUS financial records European Union budget will be provided under the are maintained by DCSF who advise that contract new fund announced by the Secretary of State to install details are not held centrally and could be provided the next generation of fibre optic cable broadband in only at disproportionate cost. Wales in each financial year up to 2016-17. [310508] Departmental Surveys

Mr. Timms: We expect the proposed landline duty to Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, provide £150 million to £175 million per year to support Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he investment in next generation broadband infrastructure, will place in the Library a copy of the results of his until 2017. The distribution of funds to support investment Department’s most recent staff survey; which in particular areas is yet to be determined. No European organisation carried out the survey; and what the cost funds have been allocated to this programme. of the survey was. [310233] 943W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 944W

Mr. McFadden: The Department for Business, Innovation Employment: Vetting and Skills, BIS, will be publishing its October 2009 staff survey results on the BIS website in February 2010. Mr. Evans: To ask the Minister of State, Department Following publication we will place a copy of the results for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent in the Libraries of the House. discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for The supplier for the BIS staff survey in October 2009 Health on the use of pre-employment health-related was ORC International who were procured by the Cabinet questions for job candidates which are not directly Office to deliver the first cross-Civil Service People relevant to candidates’ ability to do the job. [306922] Survey. The People Survey replaced all existing staff surveys in the civil service with a single questionnaire. Mr. McFadden: I have had no such discussions with The cost of the 2009-10 People Survey for BIS was the Secretary of State for Health. The use of pre- £37,000 excluding VAT. By procuring a single supplier employment inquiries about health or disability is a for staff surveys in 2009-10 the civil service has saved matter for the Office for Disability Issues. Provision has 35 per cent. on the total cost of staff surveys in 2008-09. been made in the Equality Bill, currently before Parliament, to ensure that pre-employment inquiries about health Departmental Taxis or disability are used appropriately.

Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Financial Services: Leeds much his Department spent on taxi fares in each of the last five years. [310211] John Battle: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Mr. McFadden: Following a machinery of Government his most recent assessment is of the effect on the change the Department for Business, Innovation and financial services industry in Leeds of the recession; Skills was formed in June 2009. The following figures and if he will make a statement. [305995] relate to the Departments before the merger, including the former Department of Trade and Industry. Ms Rosie Winterton: I am a member of the Financial Services Task Force set up by Yorkshire Forward in £ October 2008 to co-ordinate partners response to the 2004-05 342,928 recession. Its remit includes support for people facing 2005-06 386,443 redundancy to help them find new jobs quickly. The 2006-07 349,075 partners are also working on a longer term strategy to 2007-08 329,842 maintain Leeds and its wider city region as a UK centre 2008-09 411,471 of excellence for financial and professional services. The Task Force published a report by Deloitte in Figures include spend for both UK and Overseas taxi March 2009 on the Future of the Financial Services fares. Industry (FSI) in the Leeds City Region. This highlighted All travel is undertaken in accordance with the Ministerial Leeds City Region as home to the largest FSI hub Code and Civil Service Management Code. All staff outside London employing over 240,000 people. must ensure they use the most efficient and economic The Deloitte report had a range of scenarios on the means of travel. potential impact of the recession on FSI activity in Leeds and its wider City Region. Its “best case” scenario Electric Cables forecast up to 22,500 full time equivalent (FTE) jobs lost and a loss of annual output of £1.77 billion. Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Minister of State, In December 2009 Yorkshire Forward completed a Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he region wide assessment of the impact of recession. This will bring forward proposals for regulations with the suggests the loss of financial services output in the aim of protecting the public from risks associated with region could be around £820 million—less than half the the installation of (a) dangerous and (b) sub-standard best case scenario put forward in the Deloitte report. electrical cables. [304594] The potential jobs lost in financial services in Leeds is expected to be in the range between 12,000 and 14,000. Ian Lucas: Electrical cables are currently regulated This recent assessment by Yorkshire Forward reinforces for the purposes of safety by European legislation. The anecdotal views that the likely impact of the recession Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations make it an on financial services industry in Leeds will be less than offence to supply unsafe electrical equipment such as had been expected. It is therefore clear that the financial electrical cables. The Regulations are enforced by the services industry in the Leeds City Region has fared HSE with regard to products supplied exclusively to better than predicted at the start of the global recession. business (e.g. for professional installation in business The sector has proved resilient through the downturn and domestic environments) and by Trading Standards and over the longer term it is expected to continue to for products where the supply is to consumers. lead the growth of the regional economy. Installation is regulated for domestic situations by I will continue to work closely with partners on the Communities and Local Government Building Regulations Financial Services Task Force on the longer term strategy and for non-domestic situations by the HSE Electricity to develop and maintain the Leeds City Region as a UK At Work Regulations. centre of excellence for financial and professional services. 945W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 946W

Flexible Working There are no requirements for either employers or employees to notify the Department when requests are made to Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Minister of State, work flexibly.The Department does not have the requested Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how information for each year since 2003 and does not have many requests for flexible working from (a) mothers evidence on the number of requests accepted or rejected and (b) fathers were accepted by employers in each by carers since 2007. year since 2003; and how many such requests from However, the Department conducts periodic sample carers have been accepted by employers in each year surveys to estimate the proportions of employees making since 2007. [309446] requests to change their regular working hours and the proportion of such requests accepted or rejected. The Mr. McFadden: The new employment rights introduced most recent employee survey (‘Third Work Life Balance in April 2003 gave parents of children under six and Employees’ Survey’) was conducted in 2006, before the disabled children under 18 the right to request flexible implementation of the extension of the right to request working, this was extended to carers in April 2007 and to carers. The following table presents the findings from parents of children aged 16 and under in April 2009. the 2006 survey.

Request made to employer to change how they work at some point over previous two years, employees: Outcome of request by gender, parental status and adult caring responsibilities Percentage Request made to change how regularly worked during the previous two Requests accepted by employer2 (fully years1 and partially) Request declined by employer3

All employees 17 78 17 Male147123 Female 22 83 13

Parental status4 (employees) Dependent children 20 80 17 Males with dependent children 12 70 30 Females with dependent children 27 84 12 No dependent children 17 77 17

Adult carers5 (employees) Yes267911 No 17 78 18 1 ‘Q (Over the last two years), have you approached your current employer to make a request to change how you regularly work for a sustained period of time?’ 2 ‘Q. Was your request to change the way you regularly work agreed to?’ 3 Not all requests had an outcome by the time of the survey. 4 Parental status is defined in the survey as having dependent children aged 18 or less. 5 Adult carers are defined as people who look after adults who are sick, disabled or elderly, whether they live with the carer or not. Notes: 1. Employees with parental responsibilities (defined as having dependent children aged under 19). In 2006, 22 per cent. of working parents had made a request to change their regular working pattern during the previous two years, and 80 per cent. of requests had been accepted. 27 per cent. of ‘working mothers’ had made requests, with 84 per cent. of requests being accepted, compared with 12 per cent. and 70 per cent. respectively for ‘working fathers’. 2. Employees with adult caring responsibilities (defined as looking after sick, disabled or elderly adults). In 2006, 26 per cent. of employees with adult caring responsibilities had made a request to change their working pattern, with 79 per cent. of requests accepted (11 per cent. rejected). Source: Third Work-Life Balance Survey 2006. (2,081 employees across Great Britain

Furniture: Foam Procurement services to the former-DIUS element of the Department are provided by DCSF who advise that Mrs. Moon: To ask the Minister of State, the information requested is not held centrally and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what could be provided only at disproportionate cost. his Department’s policy is on the pricing of foam for use in home furnishings. [308839] Lord Sugar Ian Lucas: The pricing of foam is a matter for the market. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Minister of State, Department KBR for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 9 December 2009, Official Report, column Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Minister of State, 513W, on Lord Sugar, on what dates Lord Sugar visited Department for Business, Innovation and Skills his Department; and what small business whether his Department has entered into any contracts representatives he has met since his appointment. with Kellogg, Brown and Root or its subsidiaries since [307652] January 2009. [303332] Mr. McFadden: Central records indicate that the former- Mr. McFadden [holding answer 15 December 2009]: BERR element of the Department has entered into no Lord Sugar is an advisor to Government and small contracts with Kellogg, Brown and Root or its subsidiaries business and does not have a Department. Between the since January 2009. dates previously indicated he visited the Department for 947W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 948W

Business, Innovation and Skills on 11 June, 8, 13 and The purpose of the Partnerships (Accounts) Regulations 20 July, 6 August, 1, 17, 24 and 29 September, 1, 12, 13 2008—like their predecessor regulations the Partnerships and 22 October and 4, 17, 18, 23 and 30 November. and Unlimited Companies (Accounts) Regulations 1993—is He has talked to almost 2,000 businesses at various to implement a European company law Directive 90/605/ question and answer sessions around the country. He EEC. The directive amended the Fourth EU company has also had one-to-one meetings with over 20 businesses, law directive, which requires limited companies to draw most of whom were participating in a Business Link up and publish accounts. The 1990 directive does not “Health Check”. The practice of Business Link is not extend to limited partnerships whose general partners to disclose details of those using its services, without are Limited Liability Partnerships and the Department client permission, in order to protect the commercial has no plans to amend the law to do so and thereby interests of the businesses concerned. increase the burdens on business. Anyone wishing to do business with a limited partnership structured in this Middlesex University: Per Capita Costs way can of course ask for copies of its financial statements as a precondition. Joan Ryan: To ask the Minister of State, Department Work Experience: Young People for Business, Innovation and Skills what average per-student teaching grant was received by Middlesex Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, University in each year since 1997. [308722] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what information his Department holds on the number of Mr. Lammy: The following table shows the average young people who have started (a) a paid and (b) an amount of teaching grant per student that HEFCE has unpaid internship in each of the last 12 months. provided to Middlesex from 1996/97 to 2009/10. These annual figures cannot be directly compared, as a result [307779] of various changes to the funding method over this Mr. Lammy: There is a huge range of internships period. available to young people, only some of which are Average teaching grant rates of funding per FTE for Middlesex University stimulated by Government. We hold some information Rate (£) about vacancies filled through the Graduate Talent 1996-97 1,923 Pool. I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 1997-98 2,048 11 January 2010, Official Report, column reference 1998-99 2,501 807W for this information. 1999-2000 2,580 2000-01 2,610 2001-02 2,729 TREASURY 2002-03 2,978 2003-04 3,419 Debts: Developing Countries 2004-05 3,842 2005-06 3,977 Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Chancellor of the 2006-07 4,167 Exchequer when his Department plans to announce 2007-08 4,192 the conclusions of its July 2009 consultation on 2008-09 4,473 Ensuring effective debt relief for poor countries; what 2009-10 4,502 plans he has to introduce legislative proposals to tackle Source: vulture funds; and if he will make a statement. [309807] Total recurrent teaching grants from the following HEFCE publications: Recurrent Grants for the Academic Year 1996-97: Final Allocations Recurrent Grants for the Academic Year 1997-98: Final Allocations Ian Pearson: The Treasury intends to publish the Recurrent Grants for 1998-99: Final Allocations results of its consultation ″Ensuring Effective Debt Recurrent Grants for 1999-2000: Final Allocations Recurrent Grants for 2000-01: Final Allocations Relief for Poor Countries″ in February. The Government Recurrent Grants for 2001-02: Final Allocations do not consider it acceptable that a minority of creditors Recurrent Grants for 2002-03: Final Allocations continue to pursue full repayment for debts that the Recurrent Grants for 2003-04: Final Allocations Recurrent Grants for 2004-05: Final Allocations international community has worked so hard to reduce. Recurrent Grants for 2005-06: Final Allocations It calls on all creditors to provide their share of debt Recurrent Grants for 2006-07: Final Allocations Recurrent Grants for 2007-08: Final Allocations relief to Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPCs). In Recurrent Grants for 2008-09: Final Allocations that regard, I fully support the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish’s (Andrew Gwynne) decision to use a Partnerships: Company accounts Private Member’s Bill to tackle so-called vulture funds, helping to ensure that the world’s poor see the full Dr. Pugh: To ask the Minister of State, Department benefits of debt relief. for Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department plans to amend the provisions of the Departmental Advertising Partnerships (Accounts) Regulations 2008 to require partnerships with a limited liability partnership as a Grant Shapps: To ask the Chancellor of the notional partner to publish their accounts. [310070] Exchequer for what advertising campaigns his Department has been responsible in each of the last Ian Lucas: UK law does not recognise the concept of three years; which such campaigns have (a) a “notional” partner. It does however recognise the commenced and (b) continued in 2009-10 to date; and concept of a “general” partner, under the Limited what the total cost of each such campaign has been. Partnerships Act 1907. [309920] 949W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 950W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: For details of spending on Public Sector: Procurement advertising I refer the hon. Member to the following previous answers: Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the The answer I gave on 5 November 2009, Official Report, Exchequer what guidance his Department provides to column 1093W, to the hon. Member for Runnymede and (a) other Government departments and (b) non- Weybridge (Mr. Hammond). governmental organisations on the implementation of The answer given by the former Exchequer Secretary (Angela Article 45 of the 2004/EC/18 European Directive on Eagle) on 26 November 2008, Official Report, column 1891W, Public Procurement. [310008] to the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne). The answer given by the then Financial Secretary (John Healey) Ian Pearson: The Office of Government Commerce on 25 June 2007, Official Report, column 376W. has issued a guidance note on the implementation of The majority of the Department’s advertising is usually Article 45. It can be accessed on their website at: on staff recruitment except where indicated in the previous www.ogc.gov.uk answers referred to above. Advertising spending on staff recruitment and the Money Guidance pathfinder advertising Taxation: Business will continue in 2009-10. Details of any other campaigns launched in 2009-10 and total spending on advertising Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in that year will be available when the Department’s if he will exempt businesses with a turnover of less than Resource Account is published. £100,000 per annum that do not have access to the internet from the requirement from April 2010 to Departmental Domestic Visits submit value added tax returns online. [310294]

Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Timms: Businesses already registered for VAT as Exchequer how many planned visits by Ministers in his at 1 April 2010 with a turnover of less than £100,000 Department within the UK were cancelled within (excluding VAT) may still file their VAT return on 72 hours of the visit taking place in the last 12 months; paper. and what the planned venue or venues were for each All businesses registering for VAT after 1 April 2010 such visit. [309872] will be required to file their VAT returns online. HM Revenue and Customs have in place a full range Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information requested is of options for those businesses needing support through not held centrally and could be provided only at this change, including the very small minority with no disproportionate cost. direct internet access. Departmental Waste Taxation: Holiday Accommodation

Grant Shapps: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer what volume of waste his Department what the evidential basis is for the statement in his generated in each of the last three years; what Department’s document, Impact Assessment of percentage of this was (a) paper, (b) plastic, (c) glass, Withdrawing the Furnished Holiday Letting Rules, (d) metal, (e) electrical goods and batteries and (f) that it is likely that an indefinite extension of the FHL food waste; and what percentage of his Department’s rules to EEA properties would also negatively impact waste was (i) disposed of securely, (ii) disposed of in upon UK tourism; and if he will make a statement. landfill and (iii) recycled. [310381] [309685]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury is committed to Mr. Timms: Extending the furnished holiday letting making operations as sustainable as possible. Detailed rules to properties in the European economic area information on waste and recycling in Treasury buildings indefinitely would eliminate the UK tax advantage for is published in HM Treasury’s Annual Report and UK properties relative to other European properties. It Accounts 2008-09 (HC 611). would encourage investment abroad and channel UK The recycled paper waste in that report includes all of resources to businesses that promote tourism elsewhere the Department’s documents that are disposed of securely. in Europe, seeking to attract tourists away from the The following table gives the proportions, where available, UK. of the total waste by weight report which relate to The Government support the objective of a thriving batteries, all of which are recycled. UK tourism industry, and are providing £130 million between 2008 and 2012 for marketing Britain overseas HM Treasury battery disposals, 2006-07 to 2008-09 and England to the British. In addition, between £3.3 and Tonnes £3.5 million is provided annually to the regional 1 Horse Guards Road Rosebery Court development agencies for tourism support. 2006-07 0.1580 — 2007-08 0 — Welfare Tax Credits 2008-09 0.3295 0.006 John Battle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer In the years reported, all disposals of HM Treasury’s (1) how many (a) telephone calls were made and (b) IT equipment were recycled under a service contract letters were sent by the Tax Credit Office to (i) with an external organisation. Jobcentre Plus, (ii) the Home Office, (iii) the Child The remaining information requested could be provided Benefit Office and (iv) local authorities in (A) 2005-06, only at disproportionate cost. (B) 2006-07, (C) 2007-08 and (D) 2008-09; [309790] 951W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 952W

(2) how many (a) telephone calls were made and (b) Departmental Internet letters were sent by the Child Benefit Office to (i) Jobcentre Plus, (ii) the Home Office, (iii) the Tax Credit Office and (iv) local authorities in (A) 2005-06, (B) Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07, (C) 2007-08 and (D) 2008-09. [309791] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much has been spent on (a) strategy and planning, (b) design Mr. Timms: The information requested is not available, and build, (c) hosting and infrastructure, (d) content as HM Revenue and Customs’ (HMRC) telephony provision and (e) testing and evaluation for his systems do not collate the number of outgoing calls Department’s website in each of the last three years; made. and what budget has been allocated for each such For information about the overall number of items of activity in 2009-10. [310215] correspondence issued by the then tax credit and child benefit offices in 2006-07; 2007-08 and 2008-09, is provided Chris Bryant: The scope of the Foreign and in the following table. Information is not available for Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) web presence has evolved 2005-06. HMRC does not keep an itemised log of the significantly over the last three years. We have moved number of items of correspondence addressed to other from a web platform hosting a number of embassy local and national Government departments or agencies. websites (2003-08) to a completely new web platform hosting all of the FCO’s websites plus FCO blogs and million campaign sites like: Correspondence sent by: Tax Credit Office Child Benefit Office www.londonsummit.gov.uk www.actoncopenhagen.gov.uk 2006-07 1.35 3.37 2007-08 1.31 3.51 and 2008-09 2.16 3.46 www.hmg.gov.uk/afghanistan Note: Figures do not include items of post generated automatically by the tax credits (2008 onwards). and child benefit computer systems. Because of the significant changes in our web presence we do not have full and comparable data for the last FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE three years. Afghanistan: Embassies The data we provide relates to the entire FCO web platform, not just to our main UK site: Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for www.fco.gov.uk Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the annual entertainment budget is of the British Embassy in The FCO web platform hosts over 250 websites in Kabul in 2009-10. [307739] 40 languages. These websites include the main FCO website, Arabic and Urdu versions of the FCO website, Mr. Ivan Lewis: Our embassy in Kabul has budgeted the UKvisas website, the FCO Freedom of Information £58,493 (representing 0.3 per cent. of its budget) for the website, and over 230 embassy, high commission and current financial year for hosting official contacts. These special mission sites. include working meetings with Senior North Atlantic These sites are viewed by 35 million visitors a year Treaty Organisation/International Security Assistance (2008-09 statistics). Force personnel, with Kabul-based ambassadors, with senior Afghan political leaders, as well as hosting visiting (a) strategy and planning and (b) design and build: hon. Members. These events are about supporting and The FCO Web project (2006-08) was about planning, furthering the UK’s objectives in Afghanistan. Expenditure designing, building, hosting and servicing a single technical is monitored by budget holders, subject to audit and platform for all the FCO websites. The project also incurred in accordance with the principles of Managing delivered new designs, content, functionality and a new Public Money and the Treasury handbook on Regularity hub and spoke model for delivering business support. and Propriety. The initial cost of £9.7 million for the FCO web Departmental Flags platform was set out in the answer given by the Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, on 30 January Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) 2008, Official Report, column 398W. Union flags, (b) other national flags and (c) EU flags The project followed the Office of Government have been purchased by his Department in each of the Commerce Gateway Review process and delivered on last five years. [309840] time and under budget. The total cost of the project (from 2006 to 2008) was £9.3 million, £400,000 under Chris Bryant [holding answer 11 January 2010]: This budget. This included, for these years, procurement information is not held centrally and is available only at costs, client side advice, all design and development for disproportionate cost. the 250 websites, a new content management system Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for implementation, hosting and licensing costs. In addition, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) it covered a number of additional costs, including costs Union flags, (b) other national flags and (c) EU flags for training of over 300 delegates worldwide, project his Department has. [309930] management, strategy consultation, user testing, accessibility testing, and establishment of regional hubs (London, Chris Bryant: This information is not held centrally New Delhi, Singapore and Washington DC) to provide and is available only at disproportionate cost. business support and training. 953W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 954W

Logica sub-contracted elements of the project out Chris Bryant: Ministers meet many individuals during (e.g. to XM for design, to Alterian for the CMS, to the course of their duties. It is not normal practice to Verizon for hosting). The amount Logica paid XM for disclose details of such meetings. the design work is commercially protected and not known to the FCO. (c) hosting and infrastructure: Diplomatic Service The following figures include support costs, as well as hosting and infrastructure costs. The most recent figures Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for also include development costs. Because of the single Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many contract with Logica to provide all these services, it is consular staff his Department employees in each of its not possible to separate out the different cost elements. missions in Australasia. [310513] These costs are in addition to the one-off project cost set out above. Chris Bryant: The number of full-time equivalent 2006-07—support and hosting costs: c.£500,000 (development costs unknown) (FTE) staff carrying out consular activities in Australasia 2007-08—support and hosting costs: c.£515,000 (development (defined in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) costs unknown) as Australia, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea) is 2008-09—support, hosting and development costs: £1.45 million 66.86. 2009-10—projected support, hosting and development costs: The following table provides the details by post within £1.45 million Australasia. (d) content provision and (e) testing and evaluation: We provide all content, and undertake all testing and Post name Consular FTE evaluation in-house. Work that we do in-house (including Australia testing, and content updates and changes, for example) Brisbane 2.43 is carried out on a daily basis by hundreds of staff Canberra 19.63 across the organisation. It is not feasible for us to be Melbourne 2.27 able to calculate the total time spent on this work. Perth 2.91 Departmental Pay Sydney 3.17

Mr. Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign New Zealand and Commonwealth Affairs how much has been paid Auckland 0.33 in bonuses to civil servants in his Department in each Wellington 35.46 year since 2006. [306428] Papua New Guinea Chris Bryant: Payment of non-consolidated, variable Port Moresby 0.67 pay linked to performance was introduced in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in 2002. We reward staff who are performing most effectively, frequently in dangerous Some definitions of Australasia include the neighbouring and difficult posts. Pacific Islands. Within this area the FCO has the following staff conducting consular work in Fiji and the Solomon For the total sums paid as non-consolidated, variable Islands. pay linked to performance in 2006-07, I refer the hon. Member to the reply by my right hon. Friend the Consular FTE Member for Eastwood (Mr. Murphy) to the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) on 5 July 2007, Official Fiji Report, column 1142W Suva 0.59 For 2007-08 the total paid was £6,748,152 and for 2008-09 the total paid was £7,571,836. Solomon Islands Honiara 0.55 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) year-end and (b) in-year bonuses were paid to officials in his Department in each of the last three years; and Government Hospitality: Wines how much was paid in such bonuses in each such year. [307095] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Chris Bryant: For the number of year-end and in-year answer of 5 January 2010, Official Report, column non-consolidated, variable payments linked to performance 197W, on Government hospitality: wines, how many for the years 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09 I refer the bottles of wine were (a) newly purchased for and (b) hon. Member to PQ 303951. used from the Government wine cellar in the last Departmental Trade Unions 12 months. [310198]

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant [holding answer 11 January 2010]: In Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last met the financial year 2008-09 (latest available figures) trade union officials to discuss employment issues Government hospitality used 5,632 bottles of wine from affecting his Department’s staff. [308363] its cellar stock and purchased 4,596 bottles of wine. 955W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 956W

Kashmir national prisoners and failed asylum seekers. We are also working on a without-consent prisoner transfer Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for agreement. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Regionally and internationally, Nigeria is of strategic Department is taking to support a bilateral resolution importance, and is likely to become even more influential. between India and Pakistan on the situation in Nigeria’s position within the Economic Community of Kashmir. [310501] West African States has proved critical in recent events across the region, and we will continue to engage intensively Mr. Ivan Lewis: It is not for the UK to prescribe a with the Federal Government of Nigeria on regional solution on Kashmir; that is for those parties directly issues. Nigeria has a key role to play in the African involved to determine through dialogue. However, we Union; and as of January 2010, will also be taking up a continue to encourage both India and Pakistan to seek non-permanent seat on the United Nations Security a lasting resolution to the issue of Kashmir, which takes Council. We are particularly supportive of Nigeria’s into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. contribution on peacekeeping across the region, including More generally, we recognise that the normalisation on Darfur and Liberia. of relations between India and Pakistan will be vital for Nigeria: Politics and Government improving regional security and resolving conflict. Through our engagement we continue to encourage both India and Pakistan to establish and maintain dialogue. Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make Morocco representations to the government of Nigeria on the contribution of its reform programme to the stability of that country. [310417] Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he Chris Bryant: The UK regularly discusses the reform has received on the compliance with international law programme with the Government of Nigeria, including of UK companies which buy goods from Moroccan- at ministerial level. We will continue to work with the occupied Western Sahara. [309544] Government of Nigeria on issues such as conflict in the Niger Delta, on ethnic tensions in northern Nigeria, on Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office electoral, economic and development issues, all of which has not received any representations on the compliance are key factors affecting the stability of the country. with international law of UK companies which buy goods from the disputed territory of Western Sahara. North Korea: Political Prisoners

Nigeria: Foreign Relations Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for received on the number of political prisoners in North Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what aims and Korea used for forced labour; and if he will make a objectives he has set for UK foreign policy in respect of statement. [310427] Nigeria. [309145] Mr. Ivan Lewis: While there is no doubt that North Mr. Ivan Lewis: Nigeria is an important partner for Korea imprisons large numbers of people for their the UK, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office political and religious beliefs, there are no reliable figures (FCO) engages with the country across all of our available for the number of political prisoners in North Departmental Strategic Objectives. I was able to discuss Korea. our objectives with a broad range of senior Nigerians, Different non-governmental organisations (NGOs) including President Yar’Adua, during my visit to Nigeria produce various figures based on the observations of in November last year. defectors, but these are difficult to verify, and often out Conflict in the Niger Delta and inter-religious conflict of date. That is why we have consistently pressed North in the North continue to be a priority, and the FCO Korea to allow the UN Special Rapporteur on the works together with the Department for International situation of human rights in North Korea access to Development and other Partners Across Government their country. We called for this most recently at the UN to address the underlying causes, including by reducing Universal Periodic Review of the human rights situation poverty and improving security. Deepening democracy in North Korea in Geneva in December 2009. At the and achieving electoral reform are an important part of Universal Periodic Review we also raised concerns of this, particularly as Nigeria looks towards presidential NGOs on the existence of political prison camps. North elections in 2011. Nigeria’s economic growth and prosperity Korea responded by stating that no political prison are also key, and FCO priorities include improving camps exist. governance and fighting corruption, as well as supporting economic reform and investment from British businesses. Overseas Territories Consultative Council We also continue to engage on counter terrorism issues, increasing Nigeria’s understanding of UK foreign policy Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for aims and objectives. As Nigeria is a major oil exporter Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the and growing gas supplier, we continue to engage heavily answer of 5 January 2010, Official Report, column on energy security issues. On migration, we enjoy a 206W, on the Overseas Territories Consultative constructive relationship with Nigeria, working towards Council, when he expects to publish the final costs of maximising the return of immigration offenders, foreign the meeting held on 8 and 9 December 2009. [310279] 957W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 958W

Chris Bryant: The final cost of the Overseas Territories Uganda: Politics and Government Consultative Council and Forum in December 2009 was £36,460. Mr. MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Russia Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Ugandan government on its proposals for legislation Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for discriminating against gays. [308143] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next plans to visit the Russian Federation with his German Mr. Ivan Lewis: The legislation is a private Member’s counterpart. [310195] Bill, which was introduced on 14 October 2009 and is currently at committee stage in Uganda’s Parliament. It Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of has not so far been adopted formally by the Ugandan State currently has no plans to visit the Russian Federation, government. but I am currently considering the possibility of joint meetings with the Foreign Secretary’s German counterpart We have grave concerns about the Bill, which we have during a visit in February. made clear in representations to Ugandan Ministers including by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to Uganda: Human Rights President Museveni and my noble Friend Baroness Kinnock to Foreign Minister Kutesa at the recent Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. Our Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what high commissioner in Kampala takes every appropriate representations his Department has made to the opportunity to engage Ugandan Ministers on this issue. government of Uganda on the Anti-Homosexuality Sweden, which has the local EU presidency in Uganda, Bill before the Ugandan Parliament; and what steps his has led a demarche of EU member states to the Ugandan Department plans to take to help improve human Foreign Ministry. rights in Uganda. [309682] Our concerns include the negative impact the Bill would have on the rights of homosexual and heterosexual Mr. Ivan Lewis: The legislation is a private Member’s Ugandans through the criminalisation of any action Bill, which was introduced on 14 October 2009 and is that could be construed as support for homosexuality, currently at committee stage in Uganda’s Parliament. It the introduction of the death penalty for some acts has not so far been adopted formally by the Ugandan criminalised by the Bill, and the potential impact of the government. Bill on the fight against HIV/AIDS in Uganda. We have grave concerns about the Bill, which we have The UK is also in close touch with and is supporting made clear in representations to Ugandan Ministers Ugandan civil society organisations campaigning against including by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the Bill. President Museveni and my noble Friend Baroness Visits Abroad Kinnock to Foreign Minister Kutesa at the recent Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. Our high commissioner in Kampala takes every appropriate Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for opportunity to engage Ugandan Ministers on this issue. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Sweden, which has the local EU presidency in Uganda, overseas embassies he has visited in the last 12 months. has led a demarche of EU member states to the Ugandan [310512] Foreign Ministry. Chris Bryant: The Cabinet Office publishes an annual Our concerns include the negative impact the Bill list of overseas travel by Ministers costing in excess of would have on the rights of homosexual and heterosexual £500. The list provides details of the date, destination Ugandans through the criminalisation of any action and purpose of all such visits and the cost of Ministers’ that could be construed as support for homosexuality, travel and accommodation where appropriate. Copies the introduction of the death penalty for some acts of the most recent list were placed in the Libraries of criminalised by the Bill, and the potential impact of the both Houses in July 2009. A list of overseas visits Bill on the fight against HIV/AIDS in Uganda. undertaken by Ministers in the period 1 April 2009 to The UK is also in close touch with and is supporting 31 March 2010 will be published in due course. All Ugandan civil society organisations campaigning against ministerial travel is undertaken in accordance with the the Bill. Ministerial Code. 5MC Ministerial Corrections12 JANUARY 2010 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

Up to November 2009 the ICO has issued 91 formal Ministerial Correction information notices to public authorities, 27 of which have been to Government Departments. They are set Tuesday 12 January 2010 out in the following table.

Department 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Total

Department of —— 1—— 1 Transport JUSTICE Department of 111216 Health Scotland Office — — — 1 — 1 Freedom of Information: Government Departments The Treasury — 1——— 1 Solicitors Department Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State Foreign and — 1——— 1 for Justice how many information notices the Information Commonwealth Commissioner has issued to each Department in each Office year since 2005 in circumstances in which he considers Department for — 1——— 1 there has been undue delay by that Department in Culture Media and Sport providing the information requested. [302841] Cabinet Office — — 2 2 — 4 [Official Report, 30 November 2009, Vol. 501, c. 440W.] Home Office — — 1146 Letter of correction from Mr. Wills: Department for — 1——— 1 An error has been identified in the written answer Constitutional Affairs given to the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) on 30 November 2009. The number of Government HM Treasury — 1 — — — 1 The Department of ——— 2— 2 Departments to which formal information notices have Trade and been issued was incorrect. The correct answer should Industry/Business, have been: Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Mr. Wills: The Information Commissioner’s Office Department for ——— 1— 1 (ICO) is the independent authority responsible for enforcing Environment, Food and Rural Affairs the Freedom of Information Act (the “Act”). Foreign and ——— 1— 1 Section 51 of the Act provides that the Commissioner Commonwealth may serve an information notice either in relation to a Office complaint or to assess compliance with the requirements Grand total 1 6 5 10 5 27 of the Act.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 12 January 2010

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 537 HEALTH—continued Alternative Medicine...... 547 NHS Funding ...... 538 Ambulance Turnaround Times ...... 550 NHS Funding ...... 549 Cancer Treatment...... 543 Pharmacies...... 549 Dentistry (Shropshire) ...... 537 Purley Hospital ...... 548 GP Telephone Numbers...... 547 Topical Questions ...... 551 Mental Health...... 542 Trafficked Women...... 537 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 12 January 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 17WS JUSTICE...... 18WS Housing Ombudsman Service...... 17WS Civil Monetary Penalties (Response to Consultation)...... 18WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 17WS Environment Council...... 17WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 18WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 19WS Foreign Compensation Commission ...... 18WS Workplace Pension Reform...... 19WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 12 January 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITIONS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 14P Badman Report (Runnymede and Weybridge)...... 13P Council Housing (Portsmouth) ...... 14P Badman Report (Sheffield, Heeley)...... 13P Sheltered Housing (Sidcup)...... 14P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 12 January 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 941W CABINET OFFICE—continued Broadband ...... 941W Valuation Office: Training...... 872W Broadband: Wales...... 941W Business: Bexley ...... 942W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 915W Business: Leeds ...... 942W CAFCASS ...... 915W Caparo Group...... 942W Children Act 1989 ...... 916W Departmental Surveys...... 942W Children: Adoption...... 916W Departmental Taxis ...... 943W Children: Social Services...... 918W Electric Cables ...... 943W Departmental Furniture...... 918W Employment: Vetting ...... 944W Departmental Official Cars...... 918W Financial Services: Leeds ...... 944W Early Intervention...... 919W Flexible Working...... 945W Family Law ...... 919W Furniture: Foam ...... 945W Foster Care ...... 919W KBR ...... 945W GCSE: Disadvantaged ...... 920W Lord Sugar...... 946W Home Education...... 920W Middlesex University: Per Capita Costs...... 947W Pre-School Education: Finance...... 920W Partnerships: Company accounts...... 947W Social Services: Leeds...... 920W Work Experience: Young People ...... 948W Supervised Homes...... 921W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 921W CABINET OFFICE...... 867W Central Office of Information...... 867W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 878W Central Office of Information: Publications...... 867W Affordable Housing...... 878W Death: Stroud ...... 868W Building Regulations: Water ...... 879W Death: Weather ...... 869W Community Infrastructure Levy ...... 881W Departmental Buildings...... 871W Community Relations: Finance...... 881W Population ...... 871W Council Housing...... 881W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued continued Government Departments: Carbon Emissions...... 876W Council Housing: Debt Collection ...... 881W Housing: Energy ...... 876W Council Housing: Finance ...... 882W Power Stations: Blythe Bridge ...... 877W Councillors: Codes of Practice...... 882W Renewable Energy...... 877W Departmental Information Officers ...... 883W Warm Front Scheme ...... 877W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 883W Warm Front Scheme: Leeds ...... 878W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 884W Fire Services...... 884W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Flood Control...... 887W AFFAIRS...... 826W Floods: Thames Gateway...... 887W Farmers: Income...... 826W Home Information Packs...... 888W Housing and Planning Delivery Grant...... 888W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 951W Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 889W Afghanistan: Embassies...... 951W Islam4UK ...... 889W Departmental Flags ...... 951W Land Use ...... 889W Departmental Internet ...... 952W Landlords: Registration ...... 889W Departmental Pay ...... 953W Leasehold: Service Charges...... 889W Departmental Trade Unions ...... 953W Local Government Finance ...... 890W Diplomatic Service...... 954W Local Government Services: EU Law ...... 892W Government Hospitality: Wines...... 954W Local Government Services: Fees and Charges ...... 892W Kashmir...... 955W Local Government: Staffordshire...... 893W Morocco ...... 955W Mortgages: Rented Housing ...... 894W Nigeria: Foreign Relations ...... 955W Multiple Occupation: Licensing ...... 894W Nigeria: Politics and Government ...... 956W Non-Domestic Rates: Closed Circuit Television..... 894W North Korea: Political Prisoners ...... 956W Ordnance Survey: Income...... 894W Overseas Territories Consultative Council ...... 956W Planning Obligations...... 895W Russia ...... 957W Private Rented Housing ...... 895W Uganda: Human Rights...... 957W Regional Government: South West ...... 896W Uganda: Politics and Government ...... 958W Royal Society of Arts...... 897W Visits Abroad ...... 958W Sheltered Housing...... 897W Shops: Empty Property...... 897W HEALTH...... 898W Sleeping Rough ...... 898W A and E: Nottinghamshire...... 899W Social Rented Housing: Regulation...... 898W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 901W Social Services: Staffordshire ...... 893W Bone Marrow Disorders: Donors...... 907W Thames Gateway London Partnership...... 898W Bone Marrow Disorders: Transplant Surgery...... 907W Cancer Treatment...... 899W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 856W Cardiovascular System: Diseases ...... 908W 10 Downing Street: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 856W Care Homes: Disabled ...... 909W Arts Council England ...... 856W Dentistry: Children ...... 900W Arts Council England: Occupational Pensions...... 860W Departmental Surveys...... 909W Bell Towers: Expenditure ...... 860W Departmental Training ...... 909W Casinos ...... 861W Departmental Training ...... 910W Departmental Computers ...... 861W Drugs: Prisons ...... 910W Departmental Consultants...... 862W Employment Tribunals Service...... 911W Departmental Manpower...... 862W General Practitioners ...... 911W Departmental Surveys...... 862W General Practitioners: Manpower ...... 911W Gambling...... 863W General Practitioners: Working Hours...... 912W Gambling Act 2005...... 864W Health Professions: Regulation ...... 912W Gambling: Crime ...... 864W Health Services: Armed Forces ...... 912W Gaming Machines: Taxation...... 864W Health Visitors: Hertfordshire...... 900W Horse Racing: Betting...... 865W Homeopathy: Merseyside...... 913W Licensed Premises ...... 865W Hospitals: Infectious Diseases...... 913W Olympic Games 2012: Facilities ...... 866W Neurology ...... 914W Policing and Crime Act 2009...... 866W NHS Ambulance Trusts...... 899W NHS: Charitable Funding ...... 898W DEFENCE...... 821W NHS Hospitals: Private Facilities...... 899W Air Force: Military Bases ...... 821W NHS: Non-Profit Making Associations ...... 914W Armed Forces: Aviation ...... 821W NHS Staff: Protection...... 900W Armed Forces: Families ...... 822W Parkinson’s Disease ...... 914W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 822W PCT Funding...... 900W Armed Forces: Uniforms ...... 824W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 914W Departmental Land ...... 824W Primary Care Trusts: East of England ...... 915W USA: Military Aircraft ...... 824W Smoking Cessation...... 899W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 873W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 841W Boilers: Scotland...... 873W Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs...... 841W Energy Efficiency Schemes: Scotland ...... 873W Antisocial Behaviour: West Midlands ...... 842W Energy: Prices ...... 873W Burglary: Rotherham ...... 843W Fuel Poverty...... 874W Children: Police Custody...... 843W Fuel Poverty: Leeds...... 875W Crime: Nottingham...... 844W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued JUSTICE—continued Crime: Olympic Games 2012...... 844W Youth Custody...... 940W Crimes of Violence: Knives...... 844W Crimes of Violence: Sussex ...... 844W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 819W Detention Centres: Children ...... 845W Departmental Information Officers ...... 819W DNA: Databases...... 847W Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission...... 819W Domestic Violence ...... 849W Driving...... 849W SCOTLAND...... 820W Drugs...... 850W Departmental Surveys...... 820W Entry Clearances...... 850W Water ...... 821W Hamas: Internet...... 851W Human Trafficking ...... 851W TRANSPORT ...... 826W Humberside Police ...... 853W A50 ...... 826W Licensing Laws: Councillors ...... 853W A519 ...... 826W Police National Computer: Wales ...... 854W Airports: Security...... 827W Prisoners: Repatriation ...... 854W Aviation ...... 827W Proceeds of Crime...... 854W Aviation: Security...... 827W Security...... 855W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Databases... 828W Sussex Police: Detection Rates ...... 855W Driving under Influence...... 828W Young Offenders ...... 856W Roads: Safety ...... 828W Trans-European Network Transport Programme... 830W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 825W Bars...... 825W TREASURY ...... 948W Debts: Developing Countries ...... 948W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 825W Departmental Advertising...... 948W ACP Countries: EU Overseas Trade ...... 825W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 949W Iraq Committee of Inquiry ...... 825W Departmental Waste ...... 949W Public Sector: Procurement...... 950W JUSTICE...... 921W Taxation: Business ...... 950W Departmental Fines ...... 921W Taxation: Holiday Accommodation...... 950W Departmental Travel ...... 922W Welfare Tax Credits...... 950W Elections ...... 923W Electoral Register...... 924W WALES...... 825W Electoral Register: Expenditure...... 925W Boilers: Government Assistance ...... 825W Family Law Act 1996 ...... 926W General Election 2010: Young People ...... 927W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 866W Homicide ...... 927W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 866W Hotels ...... 928W Legal Services Commission: Chesterfield ...... 930W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 831W Non-molestation Orders ...... 930W Disability Living Allowance...... 831W Open Prisons...... 931W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 832W Prisoners: Ex-servicemen ...... 933W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 833W Prisons: Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 934W New Deal Schemes...... 834W Rendition ...... 937W Pathways to Work ...... 837W Reoffenders: Young People ...... 937W Social Security Benefits: Overseas Residence ...... 839W Road Safety Act 2006...... 938W Social Services...... 839W Shoplifting: Sentencing ...... 939W Winter Fuel Payments: Milton Keynes...... 841W Young Offenders: Community Orders...... 939W Winter Fuel Payments: Slough...... 841W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 12 January 2010

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not later than Tuesday 19 January 2010

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 12 January 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 537] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Health

Sustainable Energy (Local Action [Col. 559] Bill presented, and read the First time

Video Recordings (Exemption from Classification) [Col. 560] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—[Mr. Dismore]—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Personal Care at Home Bill [Col. 563] Considered in Committee; read the Third time and passed

Petition [Col. 659]

Student Finance [Col. 660] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Exportable Benefitst [Col. 167WH] Goldstone Report [Col. 186WH] Davies Review [Col. 212WH] Kurdistan [Col. 220WH] Local Radio [Col. 228WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 17WS]

Petition [Col. 13P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 819W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]