Seanad Éireann

Vol. 222 Tuesday, No. 1 12 March 2013

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

12 March 2013

Business of Seanad ��2 Order of Business ��3 Message from Dáil ��23 Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages ��23 Adjournment Matters ��34

12/03/2013Z00150Rural Development Programme ��34

12/03/2013Z00350School Relocation��35

12/03/2013CC00200Consumer Protection ��38

12/03/2013EE00100Agri-Environment Options Scheme Payments��40 SEANAD ÉIREANN

Dé Máirt, 12 Márta 2013

Tuesday, 12 March 2013

Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m.

Machnamh agus Paidir. Reflection and Prayer.

Business of Seanad

12/03/2013B00100An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill that, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to outline the reason he has placed a full embargo on Leader funding by partnership companies and arrange the immediate lifting of this embargo and to provide a dedicated additional fund of at least €30 million for Gaeltacht projects.

I have also received notice from Senator Denis O’Donovan of the following matter:

To ask the Minister for Education and Skills to make a statement on the provision of a new school at Summercove, Kinsale and to outline the progress with regard to same.

I have also received notice from Senator Catherine Noone of the following matter:

To ask the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation if there are plans in place to provide stronger legislation to prevent multinational retailers inflating their Irish prices in comparison with their United Kingdom prices.

I have also received notice from Senator Lorraine Higgins of the following matter:

To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine when he intends to make Agri- Environment Options Scheme, AEOS, 2 payments to Irish farmers.

I have also received notice from Senator Colm Burke of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Education and Skills to provide the funding for the construction of a general purpose hall in Scoil Íosagáin, Farranree, County Cork, in accordance with the planning permission granted for same on 21 April 2011.

I regard the matters raised as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I have selected Senators Ó Domhnaill, O’Donovan, Noone and Higgins and they will be taken at the conclu- sion of business. Senator Burke may give notice on another day of the matter he wishes to raise.

2 12 March 2013 Order of Business

12/03/2013B00300Senator Maurice Cummins: The Order of Business is No. 1, Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Bill 2012 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken on the conclu- sion of the Order of Business.

12/03/2013B00400Senator Terry Leyden: I wish the Cathaoirleach a good afternoon.

12/03/2013B00500Senator Paul Coghlan: Will this be a better Opposition?

12/03/2013B00600Senator Terry Leyden: My party will not oppose the Order of Business today because it is important to pass the Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Bill as quickly as possible. This is because one never knows what will happen in the near future.

12/03/2013B00700Senator Paul Coghlan: Pull the other one.

12/03/2013B00800Senator Terry Leyden: Consequently, the new constituencies are needed and Iy will not delay them today or ask for an amendment to the Order of Business in those circumstances.

Tip O’Neill once observed that all politics are local and in these circumstances-----

12/03/2013B00900Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator took him at his word.

12/03/2013B01000Senator Terry Leyden: -----I wish to ask the Leader of the House, Senator Cummins, who is my colleague on the Labour Panel, to request the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Ma- rine, Deputy Coveney, to come into this House to consider this morning’s protest by the Irish Cattle and Sheep Farmers Association at the offices of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Golf Links Road, Roscommon. The protest was attended by a number of people because there is great concern that the front desk will be closed and transferred to Naas, where all queries regarding TB and other issues that arises in respect of the services will be dealt with. These services are invaluable to the farmers of County Roscommon and surrounding areas and include, for instance, paperwork for EU payments, animal passports, issues relating to TB testing and so on. There is no substitute for face-to-face contact in these matters as the help of experienced local staff is invaluable and often can prevent small issues escalating into big problems.

I strongly believe the downgrading of this busy and effective service would have negative consequences for the farming community of County Roscommon and urge the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to maintain the facility at its current level. I also appeal to the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, to get involved in this campaign and to use its powers and exert its influence. The farming community contributes more to the IFA than to the Irish Cattle and Sheep Farmers Association and the former should use its clout to prevent a downgrading of services.

If the Minister is not available, the Leader should get the Minister for Justice and Equal- ity, Deputy Shatter, to come into the House to consider the blow to the people of north County Roscommon on the announcement this morning that the Garda headquarters in Boyle, County Roscommon will be closed between the hours of 6 p.m. and 10 a.m.

12/03/2013B01100Senator Maurice Cummins: Law-abiding people. 3 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013B01200Senator Terry Leyden: This is a major blow to the people of that area from a security per- spective. No one would wish for this to happen in any community but I note in particular that Boyle is the capital of north Roscommon. In addition, the stations at Cootehall, Loughglynn and Tarmonbarry have been closed. All those local Garda stations have closed but a regional Garda station has been amalgamated with Castlerea. This is a major blow to the constituency. I cannot understand why the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, has a desire to remove a service such as the courthouse in Boyle and other services from County Roscommon. I appeal to him on the matter at this stage. I hope the Fine Gael Deputy elected for Roscommon will at long last use his influence to try to prevent the further downgrading of the county.

12/03/2013C00200Senator Maurice Cummins: He has done a lot already.

12/03/2013C00300Senator Ivana Bacik: I wish to raise an issue that has been in the newspapers recently concerning the heel prick test, which is the screening test operated by the HSE under what is known as the national newborn blood spot screening programme. It is a screening programme for six rare genetic diseases and more recently also for cystic fibrosis. The results of the heel prick tests on newborns are kept on Guthrie cards in Temple Street Children’s Hospital. I understand that the results from 1984 to 2002 are currently kept there but recently the Government announced that they would be destroyed. The reason I raise the issue today is that parents have two more weeks to seek to retain the records of their newborn child. The deadline is 31 March. The Data Protection Commissioner ruled some years ago that it was in breach of data protection laws that the screening cards would be retained.

12/03/2013C00400Senator David Norris: It is lamentable.. It is bureaucratic rubbish.

12/03/2013C00500Senator Ivana Bacik: I agree with Senator Norris. It is bureaucratic nonsense. Professor David McConnell, the Trinity College genetics professor, has likened the future destruction of the records to the modern equivalent of burning the Custom House or destroying the birth cer- tificates of all born in Ireland.

12/03/2013C00600Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

12/03/2013C00700Senator Ivana Bacik: He said it would be a disaster and an appalling act of cultural and social vandalism because of the enormous value that the Guthrie cards can provide for future health programmes for the Irish people generally and to add to our knowledge and information about genetic conditions in the population. It does seem appalling that the cards are to be destroyed. The critical issue at this point is to inform people of their right to intervene between now and 31 March. The HSE needs to do more to inform parents of the need to ensure that their children’s cards are retained if they wish to do so, by 31 March.

12/03/2013C00800Senator David Norris: It is against the public good.

12/03/2013C00900Senator Ivana Bacik: It is in the common good, but it is also very much in the interests of their children and families that the cards would be retained. I have been asked by various people to raise the issue. It is a hugely important one that has been in the news but it is critical at this point that people would act.

I congratulate the Trinity Jail Break team, a team of Trinity law students who have been raising money for charity – the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and Amnesty International – by becoming involved in Jail Break – it is not really a jail break-----

4 12 March 2013

12/03/2013C01000Senator Terry Leyden: That is a great relief.

12/03/2013C01100Senator Ivana Bacik: -----they have to go as far as possible without spending any of their own money. Two students have got as far as Argentina and won the prize. It is a great initiative that has received a lot of publicity and raised much money for the chosen charities.

12/03/2013C01200Senator Rónán Mullen: I too welcome you back, a Chathaoirligh. I would like very much if we could have a debate at an early opportunity about last week’s decision in the High Court on the issue of surrogacy. Others have referred to the matter in this House, including Senator Norris. It is one of those areas where we should not wait to see what the Government comes forward with but because this is a very sensitive and complex issue we as a Seanad should examine the issue ourselves.

There are many different issues to be considered. I am concerned about the emotional minefield that is involved in surrogacy. I am very concerned about the way the rights of children are treated in this case. I am also concerned about the commercialisation of women, and particularly the use of power and the relative economic disadvantage between those who “commission” children, to use that word, and those who act as surrogates. Many countries such as France and Austria have banned surrogacy and egg donation outright. They were right to do so. It has also been banned in countries such as Italy, Norway and Germany. The European Court of Human Rights has upheld their right to prohibit surrogacy in their laws.

The mood music, in so far as there is any from Government, is that it would legislate to permit surrogacy in some way. We should have a debate on the issue rather than accept Gov- ernment intentions as a fait accompli. There are major human issues involved, in particular issues relating to children’s right to their identity and to know who their parents are, and as far as possible to be brought up by their parents. This is a children’s rights and human rights issue and we should debate it soon.

I also support the calls made in this House last week by Senator Hayden for a debate on the funding of fee paying schools. Frankly, I do not understand the begrudgery that exists about the right of parents to subvent the education of their children to a basic minimum level of funding for that education by way of the payment of teachers. Already it is the case that private fee paying schools have higher pupil-teacher ratios. The McCarthy report urges that the pupil-teacher ratio be 28:1. In fact, that is saying that anyone who dares subvent their children’s education by the payment of fees must go it alone completely. That amounts to a form of bullying by the State and it discourages something we should encourage, the desire that some parents have when they have the resources to contribute to their children’s education. I support extra funding for children in disadvantaged schools so we can also enable them in the pursuit of excellence but the one-size-fits-all policy is not to be encouraged.

I regret the fact that Sinn Féin has activated a petition in the Northern Assembly to block a very sensible amendment that would ensure whatever procedures that are to be permitted would be undertaken on the NHS. I am talking about abortion. We have the bizarre situation that this move by Sinn Féin effectively facilitates an abortion privateer in the form of the Marie Stopes Clinic, which even by the standards of abortion providers, does not have a good reputation. This is a cynical move by Sinn Féin and it is time the party stopped speaking out of both sides of its mouth, saying it is anti-abortion while doing everything to facilitate its provision.

12/03/2013D00200Senator Michael Mullins: We have had many debates and discussions on job creation and

5 Seanad Éireann high unemployment levels. I saw comments by Louise Phelan, the Irish head of PayPal, where she said that young graduates are completely unprepared for work, not hungry enough to succeed in today’s environment, and that they have a sense of entitlement, expecting everything to be handed to them on a plate. She said they have great graduates working in PayPal but others arrive with a sense of entitlement, unprepared for the workplace in which they are to operate. We all wonder why this is. Is it because during the property bubble everything seemed so much easier and everyone seemed to succeed?

Ms Phelan talked about Ireland being a great place in which to do business but worries that the younger generation is woefully unprepared for the workplace. We must have a debate with the Minister on how multinational companies view Ireland, our graduates and their prepared- ness for work. If Ms Phelan’s feelings are shared by other multinational companies, we should be seriously worried about future investment. We must discuss this with the Minister as a matter of urgency. I would ask the Leader to facilitate that debate in the coming weeks.

12/03/2013D00300Senator Denis O’Donovan: I wish to raise a parochial but important issue, and I would like the Leader to get some information for me on the future of Dursey Island cable car. For those who do not know it, Dursey Island is one of the most remote and isolated parts of the country. It was the last place the people who sailed from Cobh saw as they left Ireland on the RMS Titanic before the ill-fated ship hit the iceberg. A small number of people still live on this island, while many other islanders who moved to the mainland continue to have farms or land on the island. Their only access is the cable car which was built some 35 years ago. We were informed a few days ago that, for insurance reasons, the cable car would be repaired and would not operate for two or three weeks. I am also reliably informed that the cost of upgrading the cable car to make it safe would be in the region of €1 million.

The people of the isolated island of Dursey and those who use the cable car daily must receive fair play and fair treatment. We hear about rights for the diaspora and so forth but we must also look after our own people living in remote areas with the threat of being cut off. Dursey Sound, the stretch of water between Dursey Island and the mainland at the end of the Beara Peninsula, is extremely treacherous. While there is a pier, dangerous currents mean it is not safe to make the crossing, especially with animals, for as many as 200 days of the year. I do not wish to be parochial but I believe I must make this appeal on behalf of those who have been fighting this battle for the past two years. Everyone, whether he or she is from Dublin 4, Dursey Island or west Cork, should enjoy the same rights. The people affected have a cloud of uncertainty hanging over them and are seeking nothing more than fair play. They are entitled to access the island and use their lands and houses. The common practice of bringing cattle, sheep and other farm animals back and forth on the cable car is being hindered, which is a form of discrimination against the people of the island. I ask the Leader to consider arranging a debate on this matter or, alternatively, to have the appropriate Minister provide me with a detailed statement on the future of the Dursey Island cable car.

12/03/2013E00200Senator Mary Moran: I raise concerns about conditions in children’s hospitals as we await the construction of the new national children’s hospital in Dublin. On a recent stay in a Dublin children’s hospital with my son, I was horrified to see the conditions to which parents and children are subjected. Although the nursing care provided was second to none and the nurses were fantastic, I was alarmed at the cramped conditions in the hospital. Patients share tiny rooms with two beds which are suitable for only one bed. Extremely sick children are ac- commodated in rooms while their parents sleep on floors with less than 12 in. of space available to them. This is totally unacceptable in 2013. During my visit, no one had privacy and when a 6 12 March 2013 doctor wished to speak to a family, the other family sharing the room had to leave. I also saw nurses step over parents to check on patients.

With regard to the parental accommodation available at the hospital, which I checked out, while I was grateful the hospital had accommodation available for parents, it was seriously de- ficient for parents who must stay in it for any length of time or who are unfamiliar with Dublin or have no other contacts in the city. The facilities for parents to wash and shower were, I regret to say, absolutely appalling. The ceiling of the shower that I saw was covered in black mould. I took a photograph to show to the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly. Notwithstanding the state of the economy, conditions in our children’s hospitals should not be allowed to slip while we wait for a new children’s hospital.

Some €39 million has been spent on planning and designing a new children’s hospital on the now defunct Mater Hospital site. It would cost a tiny fraction of this sum to improve parental accommodation in the hospital I visited. We owe it to children and their parents to provide the best possible supports when children are in hospital as this is a time when parents and children are very vulnerable.

12/03/2013E00300An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

12/03/2013E00400Senator Mary Moran: Yes. I was concerned that someone had written in a book of comments for parents the following comment: “Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be near my child.” The child in question was particularly sick and being near one’s child should not be considered something for which parents should be grateful. Parents have a right to look after our sick children when they are in hospital. Our children deserve the best when they are at their most vulnerable.

I read recently a comment by the Minister for Health that the new children’s hospital will be a beacon of light for everyone in paediatric care. I read recently that the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, said the new children’s hospital will be a beacon of light for all of us in paediatric care. It is now envisaged that the hospital will not be built until 2018. I call on the Minister to come to the House to assure us that the standards in our existing hospital will be maintained while we await the building of the new one.

12/03/2013F00200Senator Sean D. Barrett: In pages 1, 8 and 26 of the Irish Independent today, there is a long series of articles on education. One is entitled “CAO shake-up to take heat out of points race”. The CAO is simply a device by which a scarce number of university places are allocated among people about to sit the leaving certificate examination, and that is all it is. The article states, “The initial step will be a dramatic reduction in the number of courses available to [new] CAO applicants”. As with so much in education these days, this provision comes courtesy of six quangos, a virtual alphabet soup including IUA, IOTI, SEC, HEA and NCCA. I am sure there are more in the wings. The bodies are against specialised courses and want to reduce the number of options on the basis that it will reduce stress. There are so many non sequiturs that it is hard to know where to begin. Points are a good guide to how students perform, and a lack of points is a good guide to suggesting who will not be able to cope with third level. The CAO is inexpensive and is certainly preferable to interviews, letter writing or representations, as we know in a society that is so wedded to clientelism. The degrees meet the standards of international external examiners.

We should not present false dawns to people who are studying hard for their examinations.

7 Seanad Éireann We wish them every success. So much does not hang together in the three pages of the Irish Independent that one would be worried if any students were taken away from their studies by bothering with it. A lack of points is an indicator that life will be difficult. Getting points is, of course, difficult, but the number of places we are trying to allocate at third level is lower than the number of applicants. The CAO, founded by a former Provost of Trinity College, Mr. Bill Watts, is the equitable way to do that. I sometimes believe less emphasis on bureaucracy and more on what happens in the classroom is an example that Irish university heads should follow.

12/03/2013F00300Senator Paul Coghlan: I agree very much with Senator O’Donovan, who is concerned about the plight of the people of Dursey Island. I hope the matter can be resolved satisfactorily soon in the residents’ favour.

Much rubbish has been spoken on the property tax. Yesterday morning on Radio Kerry, I had an encounter with a certain Senator who is not present.

12/03/2013F00350An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate on this issue?

12/03/2013F00400Senator Paul Coghlan: We are past debates. Essentially, I do not see why we should be divided on this issue. The Leader might clarify the matter. The commitment to a property tax is a commitment that the current Government inherited from its predecessor. I hate to see people opposing a measure they introduced themselves. I tried to make this point yesterday but want to reinforce it today. There should not be any confusion on this matter. Information is wide- spread. Since yesterday, we have the relevant information on the www.revenue.ie website, and there is a property price register. There are so many different ways of checking what a property is worth that there can be no doubt whatsoever. One does not have to accept the listed value as the tax is self-assessed. One will know the trends in one’s area and there will be comparative data available.

12/03/2013F00500Senator David Norris: Will we have to pay a professional a fee to assess our property?

12/03/2013F00600Senator Paul Coghlan: One will not have to do that at all. The Senator should consult me afterwards.

12/03/2013F00700Senator David Norris: I will.

12/03/2013F00800Senator Terry Leyden: Is the Senator not to be a valuer?

12/03/2013F00900Senator Paul Coghlan: I would be delighted. What the Senator suggested will not be necessary at all.

12/03/2013F01000Senator Terry Leyden: Is he not an auctioneer or valuer?

12/03/2013F01100An Cathaoirleach: Senator Coghlan without interruption.

12/03/2013F01200Senator Paul Coghlan: If one is dissatisfied with the guide price, one can make that clear to the Revenue Commissioners, which will be reasonable. It is a self-assessed tax.

12/03/2013F01300An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate on this issue?

12/03/2013F01400Senator Paul Coghlan: A debate is not necessary. I mention no names and I am not ad- vertising-----

12/03/2013F01500Senator David Norris: Here comes the dictatorship. No debate necessary. Abolish the 8 12 March 2013 Seanad.

12/03/2013F01600An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013F01700Senator Paul Coghlan: I am sure the Leader will clarify that this is a measure that we have inherited, whether we like it or not.

12/03/2013F01800Senator Terry Leyden: From whom?

3 o’clock12/03/2013G00300

Senator Paul Coghlan: The previous Administration. You know those guys well.

12/03/2013G00400Senator Terry Leyden: Do not blame us.

12/03/2013G00500An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013G00600Senator Paul Coghlan: The Leader can clarify what I am asking.

12/03/2013G00700Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I dtosach báire, ba mhaith liom tagairt don méid a bhí le rá ag mo chomhghleacaí as Gaillimh, an Seanadóir Michael Mullins. Arís, tá sé ag déanamh mí-chur síos ar an méid atá á dhéanamh ag Sinn Féin ó Thuaidh agus ó Dheas. Is trua é nár fhan sé leis an bhfreagra a chlos. I wish to put on record that Senator Mullins has misrepresented the Sinn Féin policy once more from his lofty pedestal. It is a shame he did not stay to hear the retort to that. It is to be hoped that it will be possible at some stage to discuss the issue.

I have great time for my esteemed colleague, Senator Paul Coghlan, who has just spoken, but I wonder what planet he is living on after seeing some of the newspaper reports of recent days. Figures published by the Commission for Energy Regulation show the number of houses that are connected to gas and electricity meters. They also show that 2,479 domestic customers had their gas supply cut off between July and September last year. In addition, 4,181 households had electricity disconnected in the third quarter of 2012. Over the past two years, gas and electricity prices have risen by an average of 30%, with further increases likely later this year. A total of 6,572 homes had their gas supply cut off in the first nine months of 2012, more than the total for the previous year. Similarly, 12,854 households had their electricity supply cut off in the first three quarters of 2012, in addition to the almost 17,800 customers disconnected during 2011. The issue about the property tax is not how it should be collected but about the people who do not have the ability to pay.

12/03/2013G00800Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

12/03/2013G00900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: What about all the households who cannot afford to pay a property tax?

12/03/2013G01000Senator Paul Coghlan: That is provided for.

12/03/2013G01100An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ó Clochartaigh, without interruption.

12/03/2013G01200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: To tell this House that there were no options is completely untrue. The Government had many options, but it took the option of following the tweedledum and tweedledee politics of Fianna Fáil.

12/03/2013G01300An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader? 9 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013G01400Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I do.

12/03/2013G01500Senator Paul Coghlan: We inherited it.

12/03/2013G01600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: You inherited it, but you did not have to follow it. We suggested other options.

12/03/2013G01700An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ó Clochartaigh, without interruption.

12/03/2013G01800Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I have asked my question on a number of occasions. When will we have a debate in these Houses on how to measure poverty in Ireland today? It is quite obvious that there are households that are really struggling at present.

12/03/2013G01900An Cathaoirleach: Senator, you are way over time.

12/03/2013G02000Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: They are in poverty, and we must address that. The property tax will only compound their situation. It should be scrapped as soon as possible.

12/03/2013G02100Senator Jimmy Harte: Could we invite the Minister for Education and Skills, or the Min- ister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, to the House to discuss the Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, near-fiasco? The City of Dublin VEC and SUSI must clarify some issues that are cropping up in the offices of many Members. There is one that arises in Donegal, where many of the people go to college across the Border. A number of them were told that their fees and maintenance grant were covered, but a week or even three or four months later they were told they were not covered. In one case I am dealing with, the girl concerned intended to study pharmacy in Belfast. She was told that her fees would not be covered but that she would get her maintenance grant. However, a week later she got another letter stating she would not get her maintenance grant. This is a feature of SUSI and the Minister must address it. The only explanation I can offer is that the people who are processing the SUSI applications have not been properly briefed on the issue of fees across the Border. Obviously, 90% to 95% of the applications they deal with relate to colleges in the South. However, we have documen- tary evidence that people are being told in a letter received one week that they have a maintenance grant and possibly fees covered, but the following week they receive a letter stating the opposite. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House to outline the training procedure the City of Dublin VEC undertook to establish who is and is not entitled to fees.

12/03/2013H00100Senator Marc MacSharry: I would like to ask the Leader for a debate on what actions the Government proposes to take in regard to the mortgage crisis. What has characterised the Government in this regard since the general election two years ago has been inaction and indif- ference. When we first proposed the Family Home Bill in this House in July 2011, the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Brian Hayes, proclaimed how the code of conduct on mortgage arrears was working exceptionally well and that there was no need for such legislation, and those were his exact words. Following that, we produced the Debt Settlement and Mortgage Resolution Office Bill in October 2011. We then produced the Regulation of Debt Management and Advisors Bill in May 2012 but all we have had from the Government is the Personal Insolvency Act which the Minister hopes will be up and running by July.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh highlighted some of the rises in costs for families, including energy costs and so on. The shambles of the property tax and what is expected of people in terms of valuing their houses is further compounded by the fact that we were able to rush through legislation for a property tax but it has taken us two and a half years to bring in personal insolvency 10 12 March 2013 legislation which puts the banks completely in control. Will the Leader ask the Taoiseach if he trusts the banks to deal in an honest and a fair way with the mortgage crisis, which has been going on for so many years? Some 182,000 mortgages are in arrears out of a total of 942,000 mortgages. All we have seen is complete inaction. What is truly lying at the heart-----

(Interruptions).

12/03/2013H00300An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry, without interruption.

12/03/2013H00400Senator Marc MacSharry: What is truly lying at the heart of this problem, and what Sena- tor Barrett so often talks about-----

12/03/2013H00500An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013H00600Senator Marc MacSharry: -----is the back stairs to the Department of Finance, which the banks specifically enjoy. We saw the fruits of that. The Secretary General of the Department admitted to the people that there will be lots of repossessions and that people cannot expect the taxpayer to help them. They certainly cannot expect the Government to help them.

12/03/2013H00700An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry, you are way over time.

12/03/2013H00800Senator Marc MacSharry: All we have had is rhetoric, most recently throughout the weekend when the Government said it would deal with this now and finally get to the bottom of this crisis. The crisis is so large that I was two years on the other side of the House talking about. Now I am two years on this side of the House and all we have heard is the usual bluff and bluster from a Government which is in denial. It will satisfy the eurocrats, leave the banks in command and will do nothing for the people.

(Interruptions).

12/03/2013H01000An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry, you are way over time.

12/03/2013H01100Senator Marc MacSharry: We hear again about the Personal Insolvency Act. The banks are in control. We should get Richie Boucher or somebody to come in as Secretary General of the Department. At least then we would be able to ensure that all of the-----

12/03/2013H01200An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry, you are way over time.

12/03/2013H01300Senator Terry Leyden: It has hit a note with the Government.

12/03/2013H01400An Cathaoirleach: Senator Leyden, you have spoken already.

12/03/2013H01500Senator Terry Leyden: Senator MacSharry hit a sensitive note with his point.

12/03/2013H01600Senator Colm Burke: I remind Senator MacSharry that-----

12/03/2013H01700Senator Marc MacSharry: The Leader should answer the question. Senator Burke does not have to respond to me.

12/03/2013H01800An Cathaoirleach: Senator Burke, without interruption. 11 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013H01900Senator Marc MacSharry: Senator Burke was not even a Member of the House when I was calling for the implementation of measures to deal with the mortgage crisis. In the two years he has been here, I have not heard him bring it up.

12/03/2013H02000Senator Colm Burke: Is Senator MacSharry afraid of the truth?

(Interruptions).

12/03/2013H02200An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry, can you respect the Chair? Senator Burke, do you have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013H02300Senator Colm Burke: I was just trying to remind Senator MacSharry that he did not seem to have difficulty in trusting the banks a number of years ago when we gave all the guarantees.

12/03/2013H02400Senator Marc MacSharry: Senator Burke was not a Member of the House. He should check the record and he will see I was talking about this issue. It is four years since I brought forward legislation. The Minister was in denial.

12/03/2013H02500An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry, please.

12/03/2013H02600Senator Marc MacSharry: The Cathaoirleach should ask Senator Burke to speak through the Chair. Has he a question for the Leader? What is his question? My question was what the Government is doing about the mortgage crisis. We have been asking about it for four years but we are still in denial.

12/03/2013H02700An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry, can you please respect the Chair? You were way over time when you spoke and now you are interrupting this speaker. Senator Burke, have you a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013H02800Senator Colm Burke: We have no difficulty whatsoever in dealing with the banking crisis and the Minister has set out quite clear criteria to the banks on how to deal with mortgages in distress.

Senator Rónán Mullen raised the surrogacy issue. There is now a High Court judgment. In fairness, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, set out in a memorandum guide- lines on dealing with some aspects of surrogacy. People are travelling to places as far away as Ukraine, India and the United States for surrogacy. We need to deal with this. I agree with Senator Mullen that we should have a debate. It is not a matter we should allow to be kicked around for the next 20 years in the way others were left following the judgment in the X case.

No doubt the Minister will deal with this matter in a calculated way to ensure that we put in place the appropriate legislation to deal with this complex and difficult area. There is a High Court judgment. Let us have a debate and look at putting in place the proper structure of legislation to deal with this issue. I ask that the Leader ask the Minister to come to the House for that debate on this area at the earliest possible date.

12/03/2013J00200Senator David Norris: My colleague on the University benches, Senator Rónán Mullen, is a constant apostle for calm, serious and respectful debate without name-calling. It was, therefore, with a certain amount of surprise, despite the history of these matters, that he described the Marie Stopes Clinic as abortion privateers. I am not 100% sure how that fits into calm, serious

12 12 March 2013 and respectful debate, but no doubt it is a predictor for what will happen. The clinic has been going for a long time. It has international respect.

Senator Mullen raised this in the context of Sinn Féin exercising its constitutional and parliamentary rights in the North of Ireland to put a petition. I attended the meeting that was or- ganised there, rather curiously, by the Democratic Unionist Party, DUP. At this tea and bun ses- sion, when I counted, there were 16 men and three women present, which I thought was quite interesting, and a letter was flourished from the Reverend Dr. Ian Paisley. I asked a number of questions, including whether this was the Dr. Paisley who had so signally failed to save Ulster from sodomy.

They did not answer the question that is referred to, rather unfortunately, in the letter I also received today from the Supreme Knight of Columbanus, who appears to be completely against allowing this regrettable procedure to take place in circumstances where the young woman has been the victim of rape or incest, or whether what she is carrying is a nerveless, brainless, head- less piece of tissue, which is a matter that was referred to in a most dignified and tragic letter by a young woman some years ago. It is obscene for these persons to try to force the situation on them.

12/03/2013J00300An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Norris have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013J00400Senator David Norris: I have. Can we have a calm, serious and respectful debate on the issue of abortion?

I agree with my colleagues, including Senator MacSharry, on the question of evictions. It is probably unconstitutional. I am in the curious position of having taken an action against the State where it agreed with all the evidence that I presented but stated it could not grant me relief because of the Christian nature of the State. That is a legal judgment of the High Court, also certified by the Supreme Court, and yet we are throwing people out on the side of the road. We are told that our actions as legislators and as a State must be Christian, but we are firing out old age pensioners and we talk about moral hazard for individuals.

12/03/2013J00500An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris is way over time.

12/03/2013J00600Senator David Norris: Why are these suspended when it is the banks?

12/03/2013J00700An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Hayden.

12/03/2013J00800Senator David Norris: I will end on this point, if I may. After I spoke last week on this question of eviction, which I regard as an obscenity, I gather that the Secretary General of the Department of Finance appeared to suggest that there were not enough evictions. I cannot think of anything more half-baked. Apart from the moral issue, if one evicts all of these borrowers - there are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of them - one will destroy the very market one is trying to reflate.

12/03/2013J00900Senator Aideen Hayden: I had been planning on going to the theatre later this week. I gather “King Lear” is an excellent production.

12/03/2013J01000Senator Terry Leyden: It would be a nice break.

12/03/2013J01100Senator Aideen Hayden: I no longer need bother because I have had my fill of dramatics for one week. 13 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013J01200Senator Catherine Noone: Hear, hear.

12/03/2013K00100Senator Aideen Hayden: I wish to say “Well done” to Senator MacSharry. He has truly missed his vocation.

12/03/2013K00200An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013K00300Senator Aideen Hayden: I do.

12/03/2013K00400Senator Marc MacSharry: This is not about dramatics.

12/03/2013K00500Senator Aideen Hayden: I am glad that he pointed out one valid piece of information. He said that the mortgages and mortgage distress situation did not happen today or yesterday.

12/03/2013K00600Senator Marc MacSharry: Absolutely, it was four years ago.

12/03/2013K00700Senator Aideen Hayden: It has been going on for a very considerable number of years.

12/03/2013K00800Senator Marc MacSharry: The Senator’s track record is that she voted against the legislation and it was defeated by three votes.

12/03/2013K00900An Cathaoirleach: Senator Hayden please, without interruption.

12/03/2013K01000Senator Aideen Hayden: I ask Senator MacSharry to bear one thing in mind.

12/03/2013K01100Senator Marc MacSharry: They do not like it.

12/03/2013K01200An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013K01300Senator Aideen Hayden: I do.

12/03/2013K01400Senator Marc MacSharry: Kick it down the road for another one.

12/03/2013K01500Senator Aideen Hayden: In 2002 there was clear evidence that the housing market was overheating. Senator MacSharry’s Government brought in measures-----

12/03/2013K01600Senator Marc MacSharry: I was never in government.

12/03/2013K01700Senator Aideen Hayden: -----that led to ordinary men and women paying ten times the average industrial wage for an ordinary family home. It is incredible to be lectured on mortgage distress by that side of the House.

12/03/2013K01800Senator David Norris: We both were here at the same time. I was here in the House.

12/03/2013K01900An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013K02000Senator Aideen Hayden: I again ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Finance to come here to discuss in a calm and a reasoned way the issue of mortgages, mortgage relief and debt.

12/03/2013K02100Senator Marc MacSharry: What about repossessions? What about inviting the Secretary General of the Department?

12/03/2013K02200An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has spoken already and I ask him to respect the Chair.

12/03/2013K02300Senator Marc MacSharry: I suppose the officials are all right. The Frankfurt way is go-

14 12 March 2013 ing well.

12/03/2013K02400Senator Aideen Hayden: A house in every field and a portfolio of properties for every taxi driver was his party’s idea of the Irish home.

There is a serious issue related to the buy-to-let mortgage market. The Minister for Finance has made it clear that he does not see the buy-to-let mortgage market as one that needs to be protected. He has indicated that they should be repossessed. One in every five people live in a buy-to-let property. They live in the rental sector. There could be serious issues for ordinary people and families, and people with children, if we do not handle the matter carefully. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to attend and ask him to specifically address the issue.

12/03/2013K02500Senator Jim Walsh: I concur with the concerns expressed by Senator Rónán Mullen. I am also concerned that the Sinn Féin Party decided to make a petition of concern. I spoke to its leader and other MLA members of Sinn Féin to avert it happening. The petition is a misuse of a good provision that was included in the agreements. The petition of concern was included in order that no community could find itself totally out-voted by another. This is not such an issue because it transcends politics and parties. I regret that it has happened but accept that it is democracy. I also accept that the party is entitled to adopt whatever position it wishes. I urge people here who may not be as familiar with some of the activities of the Marie Stopes Clinics to talk to people, even those on the pro-choice side, who are critical of Marie Stopes and have serious misgivings about some of its modus operandi.

I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come to the House. I appreciate, and I have always acknowledged here, that we are going through a difficult fiscal and economic situation and that the Government must make unpopular decisions. When Fianna Fáil was in power it made unpopular decisions by cutting public service pay and social welfare to spread the burden across all of society.

I am highly critical of what is happening now. I want the Minister to come here to discuss the housing grants for the disabled and the elderly. My county council has been almost cut in half and I am sure that the same has occurred in other areas. Many constituents have made representations to me for housing grants. Some of the people are elderly and live in homes that need repairs which they cannot afford and the same applies to the disabled. In one instance, a father and son cannot access a stairway to their bedrooms and only use their livingroom. Such people will be deprived of essential grants.

12/03/2013K02600An Cathaoirleach: The Senator can make his points during the debate.

12/03/2013K02700Senator Jim Walsh: I encourage the Leader to arrange the debate. The cuts are a false economy. The cost of retaining people in their homes is a fraction of the cost of being taken into the care of the HSE. I appeal for the Minister to reverse his decisions. Savings are about options and choices but the choices being made by the Government are far from sensible.

12/03/2013L00100Senator Catherine Noone: Today, we have seen another case of alleged cyberbullying, with 28 students being suspended from their school as a result of this alleged activity. This sends a strong message to students, parents and society at large about the seriousness of some of these issues.

Last week, I delivered a speech to the European economic and social committee in Brussels in which I proposed the idea that empowerment through education is a more effective tool than 15 Seanad Éireann centralised policing. In this regard, we can get too carried away and point the finger too much at the various social media networks.

In the story to which I referred, 28 young lives, plus the life of a teacher, were impacted upon and have been needlessly interrupted. There are two main problems, as I see it. One is a societal problem of how we will deal with bullying and how we can stand up to bullies - and that is not just on the Internet. The second is a technological problem of how we can employ methods to tackle online bullies. As regards both these problems, I believe that empowerment through education could have a beneficial role. It would empower young people to break from the herd, click the report button and have the content removed, thus ensuring that the juvenile actions of one person do not spoil the lives of many others.

Unfortunately, bullying has always occurred and cyberbullying is just another form of it. The issue of eradicating bullying remains as difficult as ever and new technology merely provides another dynamic. The bully is no longer the obvious boy or girl in the classroom because social networking facilitates any individual in the privacy of his or her own home to partake in bullying that is much more difficult to police. We need to empower and educate young people to work online without fear of the same negative behaviour that we can all encounter in ordinary life.

On previous occasions, the Leader has been asked to facilitate a debate on this matter. We could usefully have one in the near future.

12/03/2013L00200Senator Feargal Quinn: Can the Leader find time for a debate on public procurement? When the EU directive on public procurement came through it seemed sensible that we should accept it wholeheartedly, but the effect it is having on a large number of smaller Irish businesses is huge. Can we take a balance into account when we automatically accept EU directives? There is a need to do something in this regard. I met a group of business people here the other day whose businesses are likely to go just because of one decision. It may well be that the State and taxpayers benefit from having an EU directive on public procurement which says that we must buy the cheapest or best no matter where. However, if such a directive affects so many jobs in so many areas, we should re-examine the matter.

One of the proposals that is being made on the contents of beverages concerns some sort of limit on the sugar content of soft drinks. This concerns measures to control obesity. Two days ago, the New York Supreme Court found that a ban that Mayor Bloomberg had put into operation to ban the sale of jumbo soft drinks, was illegal. Consequently, the city was unable to enforce it. That decision may mean that the indoor smoking ban in New York is also illegal. I am mentioning this matter because we have been so competent and capable here in taking steps to ban smoking, and I would hate to find that such measures cannot be enforced in future.

I wish to add a few words in memory of two people who died in recent days. One was Mr. Enda Marren who was on the national executive of Fine Gael for many years. He was never a Member of this House but he certainly played a large part in this country’s public affairs and the benefits accruing therefrom.

12/03/2013L00300Senator Paul Coghlan: Absolutely.

12/03/2013L00400Senator Feargal Quinn: The other person who died recently was Dr. John O’Connell who was not a Member of this House but of the Lower House, and of various political parties.

16 12 March 2013

12/03/2013L00500Senator David Norris: He certainly was a Member of this House. I served with him here.

12/03/2013L00600Senator Feargal Quinn: Was he? I did not realise that. Up to recently, Dr. O’Connell was still coming in to Leinster House every Tuesday with the former Deputy, Ben Briscoe. As Dr. O’Connell was a former Member of this House, we will have a chance to talk about him at a later stage.

12/03/2013M00100Senator Martin Conway: As St. Patrick’s Day approaches, I commend all involved in promoting and encouraging people to visit this country and city, as well as commending our colleague, Senator Eamonn Coghlan, on organising a 5K race in the city this weekend. How- ever, I am most disturbed about the price of hotel rooms in this city for the weekend, for which “Rip-off Republic” has returned in its glory. Hotel rooms not a stone’s throw from this Cham- ber have increased their prices six and sevenfold and over the coming weekend, a hotel room one would get for €50 under normal circumstances will cost €350 a night. Some hotel rooms in this city will cost €600 and €700 per night over the St. Patrick’s weekend. This is a disgrace given all the work being done to promote tourism in this country and to encourage people to return here because one will now get value for money in a new economic climate. Unfortunately, however, the greed has returned and in advance of the bank holiday weekend, I appeal to those hotels that have increased their room rates by six and sevenfold to cop onto themselves, realise they are doing enormous damage to the credibility of this city and country and bring back rates to a more realistic level. No one objects to paying a certain premium at peak times but people certainly object to being ripped off. This is undermining both the great work being done by the many organisations promoting this country internationally and the efforts of The Gathering.

12/03/2013M00200Senator Paul Coghlan: Come to Killarney.

12/03/2013M00300Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: For as long as I have been a Member of the Seanad, this House has encouraged cross-Border interaction, debate and co-operation. This is happening on an issue currently and the fact it is about the right to life rather than economics, political structures or tourism should not be the cause for anger and alarm. I am delighted to have travelled to Stormont to meet political figures up there to discuss that very issue. Were the DUP to come down here, Members should feel happy about that. I remember a time when no member of the DUP would cross the Border and come down to the Republic.

12/03/2013M00400Senator Paul Coghlan: Correct.

12/03/2013M00500Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: Certainly, they would not enter Leinster House under any circumstances. I would not like the message to go back to them that simply because they came down here to discuss the right to life, in one of our Houses of Parliament, Members took the opportunity to in some way misrepresent that visit. Were Members to so do, it would have an impact on future relationships as well.

I am very disappointed with Sinn Féin. I have always have been quite outspoken in this Chamber to make sure its members got their rights both within this House and within the political structures. I also praised Sinn Féin for its work on the Good Friday agreement. I am disappointed with Sinn Féin that it would activate the petition of concern because if one understands the system as it operates in the North, this amounts to a veto. In a way, it is sad this happened. Moreover, it may even be misrepresenting Sinn Féin’s own position but the difficulty is that with the party operating on both sides of the Border, it possibly has different approaches to different issues.

17 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013M00600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: No, we do not. We take a consistent approach.

12/03/2013M00700An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ó Murchú, without interruption. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013M00800Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: On this occasion, as there was cross-party support for what was happening in the North, I would have much preferred had Sinn Féin allowed it to stand. While it is their prerogative and constitutional right, Members should not discourage in the future such cross-Border co-operation, interaction and dialogue and moreover, no message should go out from this House to that effect.

12/03/2013M00900Senator David Norris: On a point of order, I think I have been accused of misrepresenting matters. The record should show I have misrepresented nothing at all and if there is a question of a cause of anger and alarm-----

12/03/2013M01000An Cathaoirleach: No, the record of the House will speak for itself.

12/03/2013M01100Senator David Norris: ----- I made a point of welcoming the visitors. As Senator Ó Murchú knows quite well, as does Senator Coghlan, who I am sure will tell the truth about all this, I made them welcome and said it was a very positive thing.

12/03/2013M01200An Cathaoirleach: Senator, the record of the House can speak for itself.

12/03/2013M01300Senator David Norris: However, I cannot restrain my sense of humour at the utter hypocrisy-----

12/03/2013M01400An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Brennan, please. The Senator is completely out of order and should resume his seat please.

12/03/2013M01500Senator David Norris: -----of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael on the Northern gerrymandering of the DUP. They are well met.

12/03/2013M01600An Cathaoirleach: The Senator already has contributed. I call Senator Brennan.

12/03/2013M01700Senator Terry Brennan: I will open my remarks by noting it is a terrible pity that other Members and I witness such bad manners in this Chamber every day. There are interruptions and the Cathaoirleach or the Acting Chairmen, whoever they may be, are not listened to. That is all I have to say. I was not a Member of the previous Seanad. Perhaps the Leader would confirm for me once and for all in this House that the previous Government agreement with the troika included the introduction of a property tax.

12/03/2013N00200Senator Paul Coghlan: Absolutely.

12/03/2013N00300Senator Terry Brennan: On several occasions in this House I have heard hypocrisy from many of my colleagues on the left. Will the Leader confirm to me that the introduction of the universal social charge and the abolition of the-----

12/03/2013N00400An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Brennan have a question for the Leader?

12/03/2013N00500Senator Terry Brennan: I have indeed. I have asked for confirmation on the abolition of the Christmas bonus and cuts to the blind and disabled pensions. Could the Leader please confirm whether they were introduced by the previous Government? There are many other issues but I will not raise them. 18 12 March 2013 I agree with what my colleague, Senator Conway, said. It is an absolute shame and cannot be justified that hotels in this city, or in any other city in the country, are able to increase the price of hotel accommodation by as much as 500% and 600%, as outlined by Senator Conway. It is total and utter robbery in this the year of The Gathering and will do enormous damage to the tourism industry for the benefit of a few over a specific weekend. It cannot, must not and will not be justified.

12/03/2013N00600Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I will be brief because I know the time is up. I have the height of respect for Senator Brennan and his comments.

12/03/2013N00700Senator Terry Brennan: It is not my style either. Senator Wilson knows that.

12/03/2013N00800Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Absolutely, Senator Brennan.

12/03/2013N00900An Cathaoirleach: Please, Senator.

12/03/2013N01000Senator Diarmuid Wilson: It is not my style either. On the confirmation about the property tax and whether the previous Government signed off on it, it is my understanding that it did sign off in principle-----

12/03/2013N01100Senator Paul Coghlan: Senator Wilson is an honest man.

12/03/2013N01200Senator Terry Brennan: Fair play to you.

12/03/2013N01300Senator Diarmuid Wilson: -----on a property tax. However, as a result of that, 53 of our colleagues are sitting at home today rather than sitting in the other House.

12/03/2013N01400Senator Paschal Mooney: It is 58.

12/03/2013N01500Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Since the tax was agreed in principle with the troika by the previous Government people have got into severe difficulties with mortgage arrears. Our party now believes that this is not the right time to bring in a property tax.

12/03/2013N01600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Fianna Fáil is still in favour of it.

12/03/2013N01700Senator Diarmuid Wilson: That is my understanding of the situation in layman’s terms.

12/03/2013N01800Senator Terry Leyden: Very well put.

12/03/2013N01900Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I agree with Senators Conway and Brennan about hotels and other places providing accommodation increasing their rates dramatically. As Senator Conway said, in some cases it is by six or seven times the rate because we are coming up to the bank holiday weekend. I pay tribute to them for raising this matter concerning what is happening not only in this city, but in the towns around the country that are putting together events for The Gathering. The cost of accommodation is increasing dramatically and that is wrong. It is undoing the good work communities have done on a voluntary basis-----

12/03/2013N02000Members: Hear, hear.

12/03/2013N02100Senator Diarmuid Wilson: -----to try to encourage people to come to this country this year in particular for The Gathering.

12/03/2013N02200An Cathaoirleach: I wish to be associated with the expression of sympathy to John O’Connell, a former Member of this House and former Ceann Comhairle, and to Enda Marren, 19 Seanad Éireann a former member of the Council of State. The protocol is that the House will be afforded an opportunity to have expressions of sympathy later, after an appropriate length of time following a proposal of the Leader. I now call the Leader to reply.

12/03/2013N02300Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Leyden, the acting leader of the Opposition this afternoon, raised a number of parochial items relating to Roscommon. I remind him that, as he well knows, the hours of opening of the Garda headquarters is a matter for the Garda Com- missioner. He also inquired about the agricultural offices in Roscommon. I will inquire of the Minister but if the Senator put that down as an Adjournment matter, he would get the exact answer he is seeking.

Senator Bacik asked about Guthrie cards, which have been mentioned on the Order of Busi- ness on several occasions. I agree there is a need for the HSE to inform parents of their rights. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister and will try to secure more information for parents and the public.

Senator Mullen called for a debate on surrogacy and the recent court case. The judgment is ground-breaking and the wisest counsel at this stage is to study it carefully and reflect on its implications. The Minister for Justice and Equality is preparing a new Bill that will address certain aspects of the law on surrogacy and hopes to publish the family relationships and children Bill later this year.

Senator Mullins raised the comments made by Ms Louise Phelan, the CEO of PayPal, about the attitude of some of our young people. We will have a debate on the jobs action plan in the near future and he can address those remarks to the Minister then.

Senator O’Donovan asked about the cable car to Dursey Island. Fewer than ten people live on the island but the cable car is of paramount importance for those people. The Senator mentioned to me that he would table this as an Adjournment matter if we did not get a proper reply from the Minister so I will ask the Minister to take that matter if we cannot elicit sufficient information.

Senator Moran raised the conditions in the children’s hospital, particularly the lack of space and facilities for both children and parents. The Minister and everyone else would agree there is a need to maintain good standards in all children’s hospitals until the new children’s hospital is built. I will relay her comments to the Minister.

Senator Barrett asked about the CAO and said it is an equitable system. We should have a debate on it soon so we can discuss the recent proposals with the Minister.

Senator Paul Coghlan raised the property tax, and a number of other questions were asked about it. Fianna Fáil is cynically hypocritical on this issue. Its deceitful approach to the property tax is that when in government, before the arrival of the troika, in its national recovery plan, published in November 2010, it planned to introduce a property tax in 2012 and to raise €530 million from it in 2013.

12/03/2013O00200Senator Diarmuid Wilson: That was only a draft.

12/03/2013O00300Senator Marc MacSharry: What does the Fine Gael manifesto say?

12/03/2013O00400An Cathaoirleach: Can we have the Leader without interruption?

20 12 March 2013

12/03/2013O00500Senator Marc MacSharry: Is that the Leader’s only defence?

12/03/2013O00600An Cathaoirleach: We must have the Leader without interruption or I will have to adjourn the sitting.

12/03/2013O00700Senator Marc MacSharry: I am not talking about the previous Government. I am talking about a failure to hold the current Government to account. Let us look at the Fine Gael manifesto. What does it say?

12/03/2013O00800Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator had his turn on stage.

12/03/2013O00900Senator Marc MacSharry: Put the people first. Put the banks first, that is what the Sec- retary General said. He said it with the backing of the current Government. The poor people.

12/03/2013O01000Senator John Gilroy: They are poor because of 14 years of Fianna Fáil.

12/03/2013O01100Senator Maurice Cummins: Later in 2010, Fianna Fáil, in its negotiations with the IMF, which it did not tell anyone about, agreed to the introduction of a property tax before the end of 2011 and to increase it by 2012. Now, however, the party claims it is not the time to introduce a property tax. The Senator’s party would have introduced it in 2010 or 2011.

12/03/2013P00200Senator Marc MacSharry: The Taoiseach stated the Government would deal with the mortgage crisis.

12/03/2013P00300Senator Maurice Cummins: The Senator’s comments are hypocritical but that is nothing new-----

12/03/2013P00400Senator Marc MacSharry: We put forward legislation and the Government side voted against it.

12/03/2013P00500Senator Maurice Cummins: -----to Fianna Fáil, as we all know. Thankfully, the electorate also knew about Fianna Fáil’s hypocrisy at the previous election.

As regards Sinn Féin’s position on the property tax, as I noted last week, Sinn Féin is opposing the introduction of a fair and progressive property tax.

12/03/2013P00600Senator David Norris: The Leader is losing it.

12/03/2013P00700Senator Maurice Cummins: It does not seem to have any problem with a property tax in Northern Ireland where the average household pays £1,000 in domestic rates.

12/03/2013P00800Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: What about the services householders receive in return?

12/03/2013P00900An Cathaoirleach: Please allow the Leader to continue without interruption.

12/03/2013P01000Senator Maurice Cummins: How do people pay their rates? Do they have a means of avoiding paying £1,000?

12/03/2013P01100Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: What services do people in the North get in return and what do people here get for the property tax?

12/03/2013P01200Senator Maurice Cummins: On that issue and the issue raised by Senators Mullen and Ó Murchú, Sinn Féin has one policy in Northern Ireland and another policy down here.

21 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013P01300Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: On a point of order, the Leader is misrepresenting the policy of my party. We have a consistent policy in the North and South. The Leader should read our policy documents.

12/03/2013P01400An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order. Senator Ó Clochartaigh should resume his seat.

12/03/2013P01500Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Perhaps the Leader will invite the First Minister to the House.

12/03/2013P01600Senator David Norris: I took a position on both these matters but the Leader left me out.

12/03/2013P01700Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Harte referred to Student Universal Support Ireland. A number of mistakes have been made in this regard and I hope they will be rectified before next year.

Senator MacSharry raised the issue of mortgage arrears. As I outlined, the Government has taken a number of steps on this issue, including the enactment of the Personal Insolvency Act. The Senator referred to trust in the banks. This Government has much less trust in the banks than its Fianna Fáil-led predecessor which handed over to the banks everything in the country in 2010.

12/03/2013P01800Senator Marc MacSharry: That should cover the mortgage arrears crisis.

12/03/2013P01900Senator Colm Burke: On the matter raised by Senator Colm Burke, as I indicated, the Minister for Justice and Equality will publish a family relationships and children’s Bill later this year. Senator Norris spoke of calm, serious and respectful debate. It is a pity we do not often have that type of debate in the House, especially on the Order of Business.

12/03/2013P02000Senator David Norris: I was quoting Senator Mullen.

12/03/2013P02100Senator Maurice Cummins: That is correct and I note the points made by both Senators in that regard.

Senator Hayden called for the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, to come before the House for a debate on mortgage arrears and debt. The Minister has debated the issue with us previously and I am sure he will discuss it with us again, especially with regard to buy- to-let mortgages. The Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, also came to the House recently for a debate on housing. I will try to arrange to have the Min- ister for Finance come before us to address the issue the Senator raises.

Senator Walsh called for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Govern- ment, Deputy Phil Hogan, to come to the House to discuss housing aid for the elderly. I note the points the Senator made in that regard. The Minister will be in the House in a matter of minutes.

Senator Noone raised cyberbullying, another issue on which the House has had several debates. I note the point she made regarding 28 students who were suspended from a school recently. I heard the principal of the school in question interviewed on radio this morning. He spoke in a calm, reasonable and respectful manner and his contribution made a great deal of sense. I concur with the Senator that empowerment through education is the way forward on this issue.

22 12 March 2013 Senator Quinn raised the EU directive on public procurement. I am aware that this directive is presenting difficulties for some small businesses and several owners of small companies have approached me about the issue. We should try to have the Minister of State with responsibility for public procurement, Deputy Brian Hayes, before the House for a discussion of the issue.

I also note Senator Quinn’s comments on the problems being experienced in New York in enforcing legislation on alcohol. I join the Senator and Cathaoirleach in expressing sympathy to the families of Enda Marren and the former Ceann Comhairle, John O’Connell. Senators Conway, Brennan and Wilson referred to hotel prices and the fact that many hotels are increasing prices six and seven-fold. This year, the year of The Gathering, I join those Members in saying it is an absolute disgrace for hotels to be putting up prices by that amount. We all agree that where there is volume, hotels must increase their charges, but not to the extent in question. The hotels responsible should rethink what they are doing because their charging of exorbitant prices will do the country irreparable damage, especially in the year of The Gathering, in which we are hoping to promote tourism and attract tourists to the country.

Senator Ó Murchú expressed disappointment with Sinn Féin on its decision to activate a petition of concern in Northern Ireland. This matter was also raised by Senator Mullen.

I have answered Senator Brennan’s questions on property tax, the universal social charge, the children’s allowance and cuts to the benefits for the blind and disabled. Everybody realises that the previous Government initiated cuts in these areas.

Order of Business agreed to.

Message from Dáil

12/03/2013Q00400An Cathaoirleach: Dáil Éireann has passed the Child Care (Amendment) Bill 2013 without amendment.

Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2

Question proposed: “That section 2 stand part of the Bill.”

12/03/2013Q00900Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Section 2 provides that the number of Members of Dáil Éire- ann will be 158 on the next dissolution of the Dáil following the enactment of this Bill. I seek clarification from the Minister, Deputy Hogan, on this. Fine Gael committed prior to the last general election to reducing the number of Deputies by 20. In a previous debate in this House, the Minister stated the reason for the reduction from 166 to 158 was that a constitutional amendment would be required if a reduction of 20 were to be facilitated. The Government has made it 23 Seanad Éireann quite clear that it is willing to hold a number of referenda and it has already done so. It has no difficulty in proposing to hold a referendum on whether this House should remain in existence without referring the matter to the Constitutional Convention for debate. Why is the Govern- ment not prepared to put an amendment before the people to reduce the number of Deputies by 20, as committed to by the Minister prior to the last general election, aided and abetted by the Labour Party in its electoral manifesto?

12/03/2013Q01000Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Ho- gan): I remind the Cathaoirleach and Senator Wilson, my good friend, that the reduction by 20 is not in the programme for Government.

12/03/2013Q01100Senator Diarmuid Wilson: It is in the Fine Gael manifesto.

12/03/2013Q01200Deputy Phil Hogan: It is not in the programme for Government. We are part of a Govern- ment. Just as Fianna Fáil made many commitments before the last general election-----

12/03/2013Q01300Senator Cáit Keane: One cannot get everything one wants in life.

12/03/2013Q01400Deputy Phil Hogan: Fianna Fáil might have made many commitments that it did not get an opportunity to include in its programme for Government. We have entered into coalition with the Labour Party and the reduction by 20 is not in our programme for Government. The commitment to have a referendum on the Seanad is in it.

12/03/2013R00100Senator Diarmuid Wilson: With regard to section 2, is the Minister saying the reason the reduction of 20 Deputies is not in the programme for Government is that Fine Gael was not serious about reducing the number of Deputies by 20, as it stated in its manifesto prior to the last general election?

12/03/2013R00200Deputy Phil Hogan: Senator Wilson knows, better than anybody, that when I make a solemn commitment to the people, I do my very best to honour it. I have done it in this House on many occasions with regard to political reform and local government reform. If there was no policy change regarding the number of people per Member in each Dáil constituency, the number of Deputies after the next general election would be 170. I put forward a range. The lowest number, without effecting constitutional change, was 153 and the range extended to 160. The commission independently decided on 158. It had the option of deciding on 153, if it had wished to do so. If it had proceeded on that basis, it would have been a net reduction of 17.

12/03/2013R00300Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I will give the Minister the benefit of the doubt.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 3

Question proposed: “That section 3 stand part of the Bill.”

12/03/2013R00700An Cathaoirleach: Senator Wilson indicated that he wishes to oppose this section.

12/03/2013R00800Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Section 3 provides for the reduction of the number of constituencies from 43 to 40. It also means that County Cavan is being carved up. West and south Cavan are being put into the newly-formed Sligo-Leitrim constituency, disenfranchising over 13,000 people in County Cavan. South Donegal will be cut off from the rest of County Donegal and put into the same new Sligo-Leitrim constituency. That is not acceptable. While I welcome

24 12 March 2013 the fact that Leitrim is once again united as a county for Dáil election purposes, this should not have been at the cost of the people of Cavan and south Donegal. In addition, the name “Sligo- Leitrim” does not give ownership to the people of south and west Cavan and south Donegal who are affected by this carve-up. For those reasons, I oppose this section.

12/03/2013R00900Deputy Phil Hogan: The difficulty we have is that we either accept the outcome of the independent Constituency Commission report of 2012 or we do not. We set out the terms of reference for the commission. It independently examined all the issues involved, particularly the distribution of electorate per Member. The number of the electorate per Member will be 29,040 at the next Dáil election, assuming this legislation is passed. What we are doing is consistent with established practice since the first independent commission was established and reported in 1980.

The specification of constituencies is the core of this Bill. In my constituency, I would love to have the eastern part of Carlow back in Carlow-Kilkenny, but that is the way the chips fall, as it were, in terms of numbers per Member. It is certainly an inconvenience for the people of Cavan that they were not kept together as a county, considering the affinity all people in Ireland have with county boundaries, but the people of Leitrim had to go through the same purgatory in a political sense on the last occasion. Their county was divided in two. They are the swings and roundabouts of trying to match electorate numbers with elected Members in line with the Con- stitution and the requirement to have these constituencies in place for the next general election.

I am sorry that I am unable to accommodate the Senator’s sentiments. To do so would again invite the notion that I would interfere in an independent process.

12/03/2013R01000Senator Diarmuid Wilson: The terms of reference set down for the Constituency Com- mission stated that it should, in observing the relevant provisions of the Constitution on Dáil constituencies, have regard to the total number of Members of the Dáil and the need to avoid, as far as practicable, the breach of county boundaries. It obviously did not adhere to this. Of the 40 constituencies which will come into existence if this Bill is passed, 22 will breach county boundaries. Surely a better job should have been done in that regard. On the naming of the constituency of Sligo-Leitrim, was any effort made to recognise the fact that more than 13,000 Cavan people and 7,000 Donegal people will be in this newly formed constituency?

12/03/2013S00200Senator Sean D. Barrett: I welcome the Minister. I regret any reduction in the number of Deputies because when we were trying to resolve the problems of the country between 2008 and 2010, reducing the number of backbenchers would not have made any difference. We have much bigger problems of lobbying, the control of banks and so on. I would not have added to the democratic deficit but I accept what the Minister is doing.

In this section, the total reduction of Deputies is eight out of 166, or 4.8%. However, in Ulster, the parts for which we have responsibility, two of the 11 Deputies will go. There will be five Deputies for Donegal rather than six and four for Cavan-Monaghan rather than five. That is an 18% hit so the way the commission did its work was nearly four times more damaging to the three Ulster counties than it was to the country as a whole. I appreciate what the Minister said about its neutrality and independence but the fact Ulster did particularly badly this time might be borne in mind the next time. The way the cookie crumbled was bad for Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan, but that is how it worked out.

The province of Ulster had the fastest increase in population in the last intercensal period.

25 Seanad Éireann The population of the three Ulster counties went up by 10.1%, in Connacht by 7.5%, Munster by 6% and in Leinster by 9%. It is strange that the province with the fastest increase in population lost, proportionately, the most Deputies. That is a pity as the Parliament should reflect the population movements. The burden fell unduly on those three counties.

12/03/2013S00300Senator Ivana Bacik: I welcome the Minister. In the context of section 3, I raise the issue of the naming of the constituencies. My colleague, Deputy Kevin Humphreys, raised the issue of the renaming of Dublin South East as Dublin Bay South in the Dáil. I know the Minister gave him a full answer there but I thought it was worth raising it again in this House given that it is the constituency in which I reside. I reside in a part of the constituency which is very far from the bay - over in the west side, in the Portobello area. To call that area part of Dublin Bay South has little resonance for the people there. It is something we have raised numerous times at meetings in our constituency. I promised Deputy Kevin Humphreys I would raise it again in this House, knowing he already raised with the Minister.

12/03/2013S00400Senator Rónán Mullen: My question probably more properly relates to section 4, so I might hold on until then if that is okay.

12/03/2013S00500Senator David Cullinane: I welcome the Minister. I, too, am opposed to section 3 because, essentially, it gives effect to the legislation.

12/03/2013S00600Deputy Phil Hogan: We have brought about the unification of Waterford.

12/03/2013S00700Senator David Cullinane: The Minister has created a whole set of problems in doing that. If he really wants a debate on the merger in Waterford, I can have that with him but I want to stick to section 3. I agree with the arguments the speaker from Fianna Fáil made. We are against the reduction in the number of Deputies just for the sake of having a reduction in numbers. Essentially, this is about saving money. We made the point already that a raft of allowances paid to Oireachtas Members could be reduced or abolished which would save money without the need to reduce the number of Members of the Oireachtas.

4 o’clock

The Minister was not here for all of the Second Stage contributions last week. Under- standably, he is busy. In his absence, I made the point that merely reducing the number of TDs, abolishing the Seanad, merging - as he put it - the local authorities, for example, Waterford, reducing the number of councillors and reducing the number of local authorities is all subtrac- tion. Cutting the numbers is the broad thrust of what the Minister has given us but he has not really dealt with the reforms, in terms of where the real problems are.

One of the big problems is that the Executive has far too much power. A small group of people have far too much power. The Government is to abolish the Seanad with the loss of 60 legislators, have fewer in the Dáil, have less scrutiny, have less oversight, and then reduce the number of local authorities as well. That is the main reason I cannot support this section and the legislation.

The terms of reference of the Constituency Commission lent themselves to some of the strange constituencies with which we have ended up. One Senator put it well last week when he stated that some TDs would be dealing with multiple local authorities, in some cases, four different local authorities, because of the changes being made. It makes no sense whatsoever to pull small fragments of counties into different constituencies, for example, parts of east Carlow 26 12 March 2013 into Wicklow, part of south Tipperary into west Waterford, part of east Meath into Louth and parts of west Meath into Meath West. Strange configurations and changes have been made, and then more profound ones of which we know in the Border counties, all because of the terms of reference with which my party does not agree.

My party would have preferred to see a move to have increased seat constituencies, for example, six-seat constituencies. That would achieve greater proportionality and there was an opportunity to do so in some constituencies. It is one of the positives at which the Minister has looked in the case of local government reform. There will be five, six and seven-seat wards, and perhaps even bigger, in local authorities and that will be good for proportionality and ensuring there is diversity in representation. We need that at national level as well. My party will support the Fianna Fáil amendment and opposing the section for the reasons I outlined.

12/03/2013T00200Senator Jimmy Harte: The renaming of constituencies is an ongoing problem. In the Australian model, the constituencies are named after persons and there is no geography involved. One could have the Hogan or Cullinane constituency or, perhaps in Cork, a Keane constituency. It might take some of the parochialism out of it.

12/03/2013T00300Deputy Phil Hogan: The Harte constituency.

12/03/2013T00400Senator Jimmy Harte: I would not suggest my own name. It is not the big issue.

In Donegal, for example, we have lost part to Sligo-Leitrim. There were two three-seaters and Donegal South-West ended up almost in Inishowen, which is the most northerly part of Ire- land. The people of St. Johnston - next door to Inishowen and where the border parish of Car- rigans is in Inishowen - were being represented by three TDs who, with respect, were 70 miles away whereas the local TDs in the other constituency were ten or 12 miles away. In certain areas, the realignment will help. The fact that almost 90% of Donegal is now one constituency gives the people throughout the county a choice as to whom to vote for. An area such as the Finn Valley was split in two and kicked around politically for the past 30 or 40 years, and that has been regularised.

Sinn Féin is one of the opponents of political reform in the local authorities in Northern Ireland where they are reducing the number of local authorities from 26 to 11. It is one of the parties that has proposed this and is standing by it. One cannot say one does not want political reform or reducing the number of local authorities in the South when one has the power not to do so in Northern Ireland but is doing so. If one listens to Radio Ulster or RTE, one gets two different stories. The people must be aware of how constituencies are formatted.

12/03/2013U00100An Cathaoirleach: The debate is moving away from the section.

12/03/2013U00200Senator Jimmy Harte: As Senator Wilson said, there is a valid issue about the naming of the Sligo-Leitrim-Donegal-Cavan constituency. I am sure that the opposite side would be in favour of renaming it the Wilson constituency.

12/03/2013U00300Senator Diarmuid Wilson: It would be appropriate.

12/03/2013U00400Deputy Phil Hogan: I suppose that Senator Wilson started from a basis that 13,000 people in Cavan will not be represented at all.

12/03/2013U00500Senator Diarmuid Wilson: That is the case.

27 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013U00600Deputy Phil Hogan: They will be well represented between now and the next election with the Minister of State, Deputy Perry, Deputy Mac Lochlainn and Deputy Colreavy. I am sure they will be happy to look after the people whom Senator Wilson has looked after so well in Cavan, and the same applies to the people in Donegal.

12/03/2013U00700Senator Diarmuid Wilson: They will hardly be around after the next election.

12/03/2013U00800Deputy Phil Hogan: They will. There is no such thing as counties in the Constitution so the terms of reference were laid down in line with what the Constituency Commission created.

There are always swings and roundabouts. Senator Barrett said that there will be a much heavier diminution of representation for the Border areas. He presumes that the three Deputies I named who represent Sligo-North Leitrim will then unrepresent them, so to speak. It all boils down to population so the distribution of votes will always be difficult, particularly when the number of Deputies is reduced. An increase in the number of Deputies would solve a lot more problems. In this case it was always going to be difficult to avoid breaching county boundaries, particularly when changing to the new national average of 29,040 people per representative. On the next occasion Senator Barrett can make a submission to the commission to address some of the issues regarding the Border counties about which he feels strongly.

12/03/2013U00900Senator Sean D. Barrett: I thank the Minister.

12/03/2013U01000Deputy Phil Hogan: I cannot do much about the naming of constituencies. As I said in the other House, if I changed the name of a constituency, it would be deemed that I had interfered with the independence of the commission and the right of its learned people. The commission panel comprises very independent people. If I change the name of a constituency, a Senator could also say that I had interfered with the independence of the commission’s report in some way. I do not want to interfere with it.

Senator Harte addressed some of the issues about local government that were raised by Senator Cullinane. Local government is different depending on which side of the Border one is on. Senator Cullinane should demonstrate more consistency and less conspiratorial action regarding these matters.

I am not abolishing the Seanad. The people of Ireland will decide it they wish to change the Oireachtas and it is not my sole remit to do so. Every citizen will have an opportunity to have their say in whether they agree or disagree with the proposition in due course. That is the ultimate situation. I hope that I have responded to all of the issues raised by the Senators.

12/03/2013U01100Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I thank the Minister for his reply. In the unlikely event that the three Deputies mentioned are re-elected following the next general election-----

12/03/2013U01200Senator Jimmy Harte: Is the Senator authorising that?

12/03/2013U01300Senator Diarmuid Wilson: -----they will have a difficulty.

12/03/2013U01400Deputy Phil Hogan: Is the Senator prescribing the outcome? He is very arrogant.

12/03/2013U01500Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I refer to three Deputies and I apologise to Senator Cullinane, as I did not realise. Some excellent candidates have been proposed for the constituency, no less than ourselves.

28 12 March 2013

12/03/2013U01600Deputy Phil Hogan: They were the last time.

12/03/2013U01700Senator Diarmuid Wilson: A number of colleagues from the Minister’s party here will offer themselves to the electorate in the constituency. I am sure they will have something to say about his comment.

12/03/2013U01800Deputy Phil Hogan: There are three years to prepare.

12/03/2013U01900Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I will deal with the matter again. During the Second Stage debate I made a point about the carving up of the Cavan and Donegal electoral region. I reiter- ate that whoever is lucky to represent the people of the constituency will have to deal with four county councils and at least three HSE areas. The point has been well made by Senator Barrett that a 25% reduction in the number of seats will have to be endured by the people of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal. The cut will impact on the three Border counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. I do not accept that the proposal is fair and I hope that the Minister does not accept that it is fair. I do not doubt the independence of Constituency Commission, but the result will depend on the starting point. To achieve a constituency that allows for the reunification of Leitrim, which I very much welcome, they chose to carve up parts of my county of Cavan and parts of County Donegal. I do not think that is acceptable. The membership of the independent Constituency Commission should be broadened in the future to include somebody with some practical knowledge of public representation. Anybody who would sign off on this Franken- stein constituency of Sligo-Leitrim has absolutely no practical political knowledge.

12/03/2013V00200Senator David Cullinane: Hear, hear.

12/03/2013V00300Senator Diarmuid Wilson: That is a fact. The very least the Constituency Commission could have done was to try to come up with a name that encompasses all the constituent parts of the new constituency, as it is certainly not just confined to representing people from Sligo and Leitrim. I ask the Minister to reconsider this constituency to see if anything can be done in this regard.

12/03/2013V00400Senator David Cullinane: Several points were raised. Some were general points and not questions, but the Minister has failed to respond to any of them. The Minister responded, in the way that other Ministers respond to questions from Sinn Féin, by pointing north, which is the stock response. We can have a discussion and debate on political representation in the North but obviously it is completely different.

12/03/2013V00500Deputy Phil Hogan: The Senator should try to be consistent.

12/03/2013V00600Senator David Cullinane: We are consistent. As the Minister well knows, we are trying to compare apples and oranges. For a moment, let us deal with the issue at hand. The Minister is an elected representative, as am I, and we have a job to do in respect of the Bill before us.

12/03/2013V00700Deputy Phil Hogan: The Sinn Féin Party is trying to gerrymander local government in the North.

12/03/2013V00800Senator David Cullinane: That is a very strong charge to make-----

12/03/2013V00900Deputy Phil Hogan: Gerrymandering.

12/03/2013V01000Senator David Cullinane: -----and the Minister might regret it. I would be very careful if I was accusing any party in the North of trying to gerrymander the vote. What the Minister is 29 Seanad Éireann doing is playing into the hands of a section of the Unionist community who will seize on what he said for their own ends. I think it is an appalling thing for the Minister to say. It is beneath him. It is not something a Minister in this State should say. If I were in his position, I would withdraw that remark.

12/03/2013V01100Deputy Phil Hogan: It is true. Sinn Féin has held it up for ages.

12/03/2013V01200Senator David Cullinane: If the Minister thinks that is true, it says more about him than about the issue itself. I think the Minister will deeply regret what he has said. It will be used in a sinister way by people. The point I put to the Minister-----

12/03/2013V01300Deputy Phil Hogan: Threats again.

12/03/2013V01400Senator David Cullinane: With respect, the Minister is trying to be smart but he is not being smart. He is trying to be funny and he is not funny.

12/03/2013V01500Deputy Phil Hogan: I am sorry the Senator is inconvenienced.

12/03/2013V01600Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Will Members please stick to the Bill?

12/03/2013V01700Senator David Cullinane: Nobody is issuing threats. When I said it would be used in a sinister way, it will be used in a sinister way by people within the Unionist constituency who will seize on what has been said. I think the Minister will regret saying it for those reasons, but that is a matter for himself. The Minister can stand over what he says.

The central premise of what the Minister is doing is to save money. If that is the case why has he not looked at other ways to save money rather than reducing the number of elected Depu- ties? One can save money easily by abolishing a raft of allowances and reducing pay.

It is disingenuous to assert the Government is not abolishing the Seanad, and state the people will. Of course the people will have their say. I am sure that when the posters go up, there will be Fine Gael posters calling for a “yes” vote. The Minister may be able to tell me differently but I would imagine, given he is proposing to hold a referendum to abolish the Seanad, without looking at reform of the Seanad, that he will be supporting its abolition. It is a bit disingenuous to say it is the will of the people. It would be different if the people had an opportunity to vote for a reformed Seanad, but they are not being given that opportunity. A simple proposition to abolish the Seanad will be put to the people in the referendum. Reform of the Seanad could have been considered, but instead the Government went for the simple option to abolish the Seanad. I think it is about saving money without coming up with alternatives.

I did not realise that we could deal with the name of the constituencies, as I thought this would be dealt with separately. I apologise for my late arrival. I support my colleagues who commented on the name of the constituencies. I am aware that a number of the Minister’s colleagues in this House have also supported this, mainly in relation to Galway West taking in parts of south Mayo and naming the constituency Galway West-Mayo South. It might be more prob- lematic for the Frankenstein constituencies because of the number of counties encompassed by them. It is important that the people from County Mayo who are now to become a part of this new constituency will be recognised. Recognition is of significant importance. The fact that they will not be recognised in the name of the constituency will be an issue for them and the Members elected to represent that constituency. It can be compared to the approach of Pontius Pilate of washing one’s hands of any responsibility. Members of the Seanad may think they

30 12 March 2013 cannot do anything in this House. Of course we can. We can accept the amendments that are tabled in good faith.

I do not accept the Minister’s arguments on the premise for these changes and in respect of the limitations on changing the names of the constituencies.

12/03/2013W00200Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Does the Minister wish to respond?

12/03/2013W00300Deputy Phil Hogan: I have answered already.

Question put and declared carried.

SECTION 4

Question proposed: “That section 4 stand part of the Bill.”

12/03/2013W00700Senator Rónán Mullen: I welcome the Minister to the House. I was listening to my colleague, Senator Cullinane, who I think has a point. When a decision is made to put an issue before the people, there is a certain implication that there is a desired outcome. Whether one has a referendum on an issue, such as gay marriage or the abolition of the Seanad or the reduction of judges pay, the very decision to put an issue before the people involves the identification of it as an issue on which there ought to be a decision. That in itself implies a value judgment. My question relates to the decision to allow the people have a say on whether the Seanad will exist into the future, which as we all know can only be taken by a referendum. Given the initial commitment to reduce the number of Deputies by 20, and not by eight as is proposed in the Bill, what is the reason for that decision? Senator Cullinane said one can cut salaries and expenses and, in addition, reform the Dáil by cutting the number of Deputies. It is certainly arguable that compared with other countries of a much larger population we have a higher ratio of Deputies to members of the population. It has been advanced by Government that the reason the number of Deputies is to be cut by eight and not by 20 is that it would require a constitutional change to cut the number of Deputies by any more than eight because the Constitution provides that there must be a Deputy for every 30,000 and no more than one Deputy for every 20,000 people. If it is possible to ask the people to determine the future of the Seanad by way of a referendum, why was it not also possible to follow through on the promise to cut the number of Deputies by 20 simply by availing of the referendum means which the Government is already contemplating in the context of election reform?

12/03/2013W00800Deputy Phil Hogan: The proposed reduction of the Members of the Dáil by 20 members was not included in the programme for Government, while the proposal to abolish Seanad Éire- ann is. That is the reason.

12/03/2013X00100Senator Rónán Mullen: Why did that commitment not make it to the programme for Gov- ernment? Did the Labour Party oppose it?

12/03/2013X00200Deputy Phil Hogan: The Senator will have to ask the Taoiseach and Tánaiste to reflect on that on the third anniversary of the Government next year. That would be the appropriate time. That is the reason why, however. If there was no change in the proportion of the electorate to Members, as we have now, we would have 170 Members in the Dáil on the next occasion. We have gone to the limit of what we are allowed to do constitutionally - that is, to 29,040 per Mem- ber of the Dáil on the next occasion. We might have gone down from 158 Members closer to 153 to allow for that, but some latitude is given to the Electoral Commission to get over some of

31 Seanad Éireann the difficulties that have been mentioned in the course of this debate. Notwithstanding that, in the context of reducing the number of Deputies, the commission found it difficult not to breach as many county boundaries. As Senator Wilson rightly pointed out, 21 were breached on this occasion. His own county and County Donegal were badly affected, but there is no easy way of doing it when one is distributing population under that criteria per elected Member, in line with the terms of reference, while remaining within the limits of the constitutional requirement.

12/03/2013X00300Senator Rónán Mullen: I am open to correction by the Minister, but my understanding is that the reason given as to why it was not in the programme for Government was that it would require constitutional change. Is my memory right in that regard? If so, would that not be a rather nonsensical argument given that it was contemplated to have a referendum to allow for the abolition of the Seanad?

12/03/2013X00400Deputy Phil Hogan: That is assuming that the Senator’s assumption is right.

12/03/2013X00500Senator Rónán Mullen: The Minister can confirm or deny it.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.

SCHEDULE

12/03/2013X00900Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I move amendment No. 1:

In page 11, column 1, line 9 after “West” to insert “-Mayo South”.

This amendment is self explanatory and seeks to add “-Mayo South” to “Galway West”.

12/03/2013X01000Deputy Phil Hogan: I can understand that, for some reasons, Members would like to have that reflected in the name of the constituency to demonstrate that they have more empathy for the constituency they will be in the future. We had a considerable population movement from Meath into Louth on the last occasion - twice as much as Mayo South going into Galway - and it did not change the name. It is still Louth. Senator Quinn would know that better than anyone.

I accept that one of the difficulties is to create the appropriate names. I did not subscribe to some of the names that came through the Electoral Commission. One of our Cabinet members said the names of one or two of them were more like a television soap than being representative of where the constituencies were actually located. Deputy Kevin Humphreys referred to one of them. However, if I were to change any word of this independent commission’s proposals, people here would say that I was intervening, if even in a minor way. That would open up a debate on changing the boundaries of the commission. It could also lead to other suggestions being made that we were not operating in a spirit of total independence about these matters, including the names of these constituencies.

12/03/2013X01100Senator Rónán Mullen: We are entitled to legislate about this matter.

12/03/2013X01200Deputy Phil Hogan: I respect the people who have been involved in these constituency revisions over the years, which are laid down in law. We have moved away from some of the problems we had in the 1960s and 1970s on all sides of the House, concerning boundaries being predicated in advance. There was no such thing as an independent Electoral Commission 32 12 March 2013 then and they were drawn up by the Department and Ministers of all parties. It is great that the former Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, was in a position to bring forward the independent review of constituencies which has occurred since 1980. It was an innovative solution to a major problem in which the political classes have a strong vested interest.

12/03/2013X01300Senator Rónán Mullen: The Minister can praise the position after 30 years have elapsed. Is that the rule around here?

12/03/2013X01400Deputy Phil Hogan: I hope they will be around, but I will not.

12/03/2013X01500Senator Jimmy Harte: In light of all the different constituency names, the Minister should have a discussion on whether they could be called names other than those based on geographical locations. I am sure parts of Dublin are confusing for Dubliners, such as Dublin North-East and others. The same applies to Donegal, Sligo and Cavan. Perhaps consideration should be given to this matter. I am sure it would be a source of amusement if people were asked to name constituencies after famous people from those areas or famous events that occurred there. People’s imaginations may already be running wild in that respect. The Minister may consider changing the names of some areas in future. In that case, while one may be crossing county boundaries, the constituency could be named Breifne. Would Senator Wilson be happy with that?

12/03/2013Y00200Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I would agree with that suggestion for the next time such difficulties arise. I have no doubt, however, that Cavan will be united after the next revision because we are going to mount a campaign from now on until we are reunited. Would the Min- ister consider appointing somebody with practical knowledge of politics to the next Electoral Commission? The independent commission’s structure has been in existence for over 30 years. Surely it is time that its membership should be examined. I think somebody with practical experience of politics should be on the commission because there is no way that anyone with that experience would have signed off on such a carve-up. I have no doubt about that.

The Minister referred earlier to Deputy Heather Humphreys.

12/03/2013Y00300Deputy Phil Hogan: I referred to Deputy Kevin Humphreys.

12/03/2013Y00400Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I am sorry. However, Deputy Heather Humphreys from Coun- ty Monaghan - who is in the Minister’s own party - along with Deputy Joe O’Reilly, Deputy Brendan Smith and Deputy Ó Caoláin, referred to the carve-up of County Cavan as ludicrous. It is on the record of the Dáil. It is ludicrous, in my opinion.

12/03/2013Y00500Deputy Phil Hogan: Senator Wilson will probably appreciate this more than most. He can imagine the conversation the Taoiseach had with me concerning Mayo when he discovered it was the first time in the history of the State that a Taoiseach’s constituency was losing one seat. It shows how genuinely independent the commission was. I can think of a few people in Senator Wilson’s own party who would be glad of the opportunity to be on an independent commission.

12/03/2013Y00600Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I am not referring to people in my own party.

12/03/2013Y00700Senator Denis Landy: Associates.

12/03/2013Y00800Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I am talking about independent people with practical knowledge of politics.

33 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013Y00900Deputy Phil Hogan: I am sure they are very practical people.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Schedule agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: “That the Bill do now pass.”

12/03/2013Y01500Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Is that unanimously agreed?

12/03/2013Y01600Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Not unanimously.

12/03/2013Y01700Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Does Senator Wilson wish his objection to be noted?

12/03/2013Y01800Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I want it to be noted, yes.

12/03/2013Y01900Senator John Crown: I am recording a “No” vote.

12/03/2013Y02000Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Is Senator Crown also opposing it?

12/03/2013Y02100Senator John Crown: Anything which makes the talent pool even shallower for appointing Ministers is to be regretted.

12/03/2013Y02200Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I thank the Minister for coming to the House.

Question put and declared carried.

Adjournment Matters

12/03/2013Z00150Rural Development Programme

12/03/2013Z00200Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I formally move the matter raised by Senator Ó Domhnaill.

12/03/2013Z00300Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Ho- gan): In late 2011, the European Commission approved a change in the maximum co-funding rate from 55% to 85% for axes 3 and 4 elements of Ireland’s rural development programme 2007-2013. Prior to this, the axes 3 and 4 rural development programme, RDP, measures were co-funded at a rate of 55% by the EU with the remaining 45% coming from national Exchequer sources. The 2011 agreement reduced the national Exchequer input to 15% on a net basis for 2012 and 2013 without a concomitant increase in the amount of funding to be provided by the EU. This resulted in a reduction in the overall programme complement from €427 million to approximately €314 million on the basis of the programme achieving full spend by the end of 2013.

In this context the original project allocations given to each local development company, LDC, contracted to deliver the Leader elements of the RDP, including the allocation for Gael- 34 12 March 2013 tacht areas, required readjustment. The Department is currently carrying out an exercise to determine the level of project commitments across all LDCs and all RDP measures to complete the rebalancing of the programme in as equitable a way as possible. In addition, given the levels of spending by the LDCs from 2009 to date, it is highly unlikely that full spend will be achieved by the end of 2013. The co-funding rate will revert to 55% for all expenditure beyond the end of this year and as a consequence, the overall programme requirement will also change. Until such time as the rebalancing exercise as outlined has been satisfactorily completed, it is not possible to be definitive regarding amounts of funding available for project commitments under axes 3 and 4 of the RDP. I do, however, expect this exercise to be completed shortly.

Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta, the LDC contracted to deliver Leader funding to Gael- tacht areas in 2009, went into liquidation in September 2011. Since then, the Department has been working with the liquidators and other stakeholders to ensure the winding-up process was conducted in an efficient and effective manner. While this took some time and is still ongoing, almost all Gaeltacht areas now have access to Leader funding through the LDC in the geograph- ically contiguous area. My Department is working with these LDCs to determine the fairest and most equitable way to distribute funds to Gaeltacht areas, including the consideration of the provision of a separate allocation for these areas in the future. Such decisions must also be made in the context of the review process outlined above and final decisions on Leader allocations for all rural areas, including Gaeltacht areas, will not be available until this is complete.

12/03/2013Z00350School Relocation

12/03/2013Z00400Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I welcome the Minister of State at the Depart- ment of Education and Skills, Deputy Sherlock, to the House.

12/03/2013Z00500Senator Denis O’Donovan: This matter pertains to Summercove national school, the school roll number of which is 18829J. In a nutshell, this is a very old school that was built in 1909 and in May 1998, its board of management made an application for a new school building on the advice of a senior official of the Office of Public Works, OPW, because it had outgrown its original purpose. On 7 December 1999, a report was made by a school inspector to the effect that the school should move to a new site. Subsequently, the then Minister for Education and Science, who I believe was Deputy Micheál Martin, indicated that a new school for Summer- cove, Kinsale, was a priority. In September 2004, the OPW placed a notice in the public press seeking a suitable site for a new school for Summercove. Various proposed sites were submitted and one such site was located directly across the road from the existing school. However, the local landowner was not prepared to sell or dispose of that site. In March 2007, the individual put forward a proposal that he would sell a site at Summercove crossroads for the purpose of a new school. The site was examined by a senior architect from the Office of Public Works, OPW, who gave a favourable report on this issue. The then board of management submitted a planning application under planning reference 0711917 to Cork County Council. Unfortu- nately, in a decision made in December 2007, the county council refused the aforementioned outline application on the basis that the site at Summercove crossroads, Ardbrack, Kinsale, was not zoned for educational purposes. This was an absolute cop-out by the county council and a dereliction of its social duties to provide planning.

In April 2009, an Adjournment debate took place in the Seanad in which my former colleague, Deputy McCarthy, and I participated. I stated the school in question originally was 35 Seanad Éireann built as a two-teacher school with a small number of pupils. However, over the past 25 years or more, the population of Summercove has increased and at present, 212 pupils attend the school. At the time of that debate, one of the school’s prefabs was 26 years old and the Minister con- ceded it was the oldest prefab in Ireland. A second prefab was 20 years old, while a third was ten years old. The 26-year old prefab was subsequently replaced by the Department of Educa- tion and Skills. At that time, the Department had been paying rent of €53,000 per annum for prefabs and while I believe this may have been resolved subsequently, it indicates the ludicrous situation that was allowed to develop.

In 2011, the school’s board of management had a meeting with the county manager to as- certain whether the planning process could be advanced and eventually, after two planning applications, the board of management in its frustration found it had come up against a brick wall. It had considerable difficulty in getting planning and despite numerous efforts by me in the past and by previous Ministers, this planning permission was not granted. I understand the existing Summercove school building was examined by departmental professionals from its technical section on Friday, 18 January 2013 and as a result, it appears as though the Minister now has decided to remove the construction of a new school for Summercove from the building priority list, while citing the fact that no planning permission exists.

Although I have no axe to grind with the Minister of State, I believe this again is a sort of cop-out because the need is so great. The Minister and his senior officials, in conjunction with those in the OPW who are trying to acquire the site, as well as officials of Cork County Council, should have worked together to provide or obtain a new site. I understand the farmer involved had offered two different options. Some of the grounds on which Cork County Council turned down the site were superfluous and not real or genuine. I will make this point carefully because I do not wish to point and have never pointed a derogatory finger at any official of Cork County Council, the OPW or the Department of Education and Skills. However, it appears to me and increasingly to the teachers in the school - who received an awful kick in the backside because of this decision - its management board, which has done tremendous hard work behind the scenes, the parents and more particularly the pupils, as though there has been collusion of sorts between all the various agencies. This school, which has developed rapidly, is a wonder- ful school and the Minister of State may not be aware it has the second highest academic record of any school in the whole of Munster, being 10% above the average. This is the reason that over the past 25 years, it has expanded from being a small school to one which probably now has ten or 12 teachers.

There has been an announcement concerning the possible construction of a new school in the heart of Kinsale, where there are issues with traffic problems. While I wish that project good luck, it would be wrong to ignore the plight of the pupils and teachers who are living in atrociously difficult conditions. I hope the Minister of State will have good news for me from the senior Minister in the Department, Deputy Quinn, that he will reverse the decision and instead of removing the project from the building list, he will redouble his efforts to ensure a site is obtained, planning permission is expedited and construction of the new school will be included in the new programme encompassing the period from 2013 to 2018. I would be highly upset to be obliged to return to my constituents, particularly the parents, children, hard-working teachers and those involved in the board of management, to state the plan, about which they were complaining to me in 2003, is now likely to go beyond 2020 with no hope of a resolution.

12/03/2013BB00100Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Sean Sherlock): I am responding to this Adjournment matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Educa- 36 12 March 2013 tion and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn.

I thank the Senator for raising the matter as it provides me with the opportunity to clarify the current position on a proposed new school building for Summercove national school. The school has applied to the Department for large-scale capital funding for a new school building. The school is currently located on a half acre site and an alternative greenfield site is required for a new school In the context of the co-operation by the Department of Education and Skills with local authorities in identifying suitable sites for schools, the Department has worked with both the Office of Public Works and the local authority over a number of years in an effort to identify suitable sites for the construction of permanent accommodation for the school.

The Senator might find it helpful if I set out the context within which decisions relating to meeting the demographic challenge facing the education system in the coming years are made. Total enrolment in both primary and post-primary schools is expected to grow by almost 70,000 by 2018 - more than 45,000 at primary level and 25,000 at post-primary level. To ensure that every child has access to a physical school place, it is vital that there is sufficient school accommodation available to cater for these pupil enrolments. The delivery of building projects to meet the increasing demographic demands will be the main focus for capital investment over the duration of the five-year plan, particularly in those areas where it has been identified that most demographic growth will be concentrated. In this regard, Kinsale has not been identified as an area of significant demographic growth. Pupil enrolment projections for Kinsale indicate that enrolments will remain relatively stable for the foreseeable future.

Officials from the Department’s building unit met with Summercove school authorities in January 2013, as Senator O’Donovan explained, to explore the options that might be open to the school to improve its existing accommodation. Subsequently, a member of the Department’s technical staff visited the school to examine the possibility of addressing the school’s most urgent needs. However, the option of providing some permanent accommodation to replace the school’s temporary accommodation and to address traffic management on the site does not appear possible due to the restricted nature of the site. The Department accepts therefore that a new site is required. However, given the need to meet demographic growth, the delivery of new schools, together with extension projects to meet future demand will be the main focus of the Department’s budget for the coming years. In this regard, it is not possible to indicate at this point when a building project for the school will be progressed. I thank the Senator for allowing me the opportunity to outline the position.

12/03/2013BB00200Senator Denis O’Donovan: I understand that the Minister of State is not the line Minister and I do not want to wag the finger of blame at him. However, I wish to express my deep dis- satisfaction at what has happened in Kinsale, in particular in Summercove, because whatever about demographics the school was identified as early as 1999 as being deserving of a new school which had been fought for at the time. I referred to the fact that certain delays arose in the meantime due to planning and other issues. I do not put all the blame at the doorstep of the Minister. It is not good enough for the 212 children who are being schooled in third-world accommodation and the teachers who have to deal with the situation on a daily basis. Usually I would get some satisfaction from a response but that is not the case today. I do not attribute any blame to the Minister of State but the response is not good enough and it will not be tolerated by the teachers, pupils, parents and those in the community who have looked forward to a new school for the bones of 20 years. It is a huge knock-back for them. There does not appear to be any light at the end of the tunnel. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, has overlooked the serious, specific and special needs of Summercove for the past 15 to 20 years. 37 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013BB00300Deputy Sean Sherlock: I appreciate where Senator O’Donovan is coming from. It does me no good to say that a school in my own county cannot have a definitive timeframe for the provision of a new school. The Government is faced with Hobson’s choice at the moment because demographics do come into play. We are now faced with a situation in this country where there are pockets in metropolitan and urban areas where school places will not be available in the future. One must make provision in constrained economic times to allow for the necessity of people to be able to go to school. That is the Hobson’s choice that faces us.

I am willing to speak to the Minister, Deputy Quinn, about the issue again. I am aware of the history of the case, dating back to 1999, and some of the difficulties that arose between some of the State agencies involved. It is not possible at this stage to state exactly when a new school will be built. One could argue that we are putting it on the long finger. I accept the point that has been made against the Government but it must prioritise those areas where school places will not be available and make provision for them.

12/03/2013CC00200Consumer Protection

12/03/2013CC00300Senator Catherine Noone: I thank the Minister for attending to address this matter and to hear my concerns. I wish to ask the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation whether plans are in place to provide stronger legislation to prevent multinational retailers inflating their Irish prices in comparison to their UK prices. It is my belief that the price discrepancies are funda- mentally unfair and poor corporate practice. In both the short and long term, they are damaging to our economy, as each euro that is taken out of circulation in terms of disposable income is, in effect, a euro that will not be spent elsewhere. That is in addition to the obvious difficulties created for retailers who are losing out on business to the UK in circumstances where the same product can be bought at a much lesser price there even with the cost of transporting it. There is a knock-on effect for jobs in this country.

I am in favour of open markets and competition and yet with such consistent price increases across so many retailers in this country relative to the UK, increases which cannot simply be discounted by a disparity in labour costs or freight costs, I cannot help but wonder whether competition is working as fully and effectively as it should. I have written to the Consumer As- sociation of Ireland and to the various retailers who were originally highlighted by a journalist who did some good work for The Sunday Business Post approximately two weeks ago on the issue. As yet, I have received no reply. There is no compulsion on them to reply to me. This is a serious problem which is worthy of the Minister’s time and attention. I would be grateful to hear whether there are plans to deal with the problem.

12/03/2013CC00400Deputy Sean Sherlock: I thank the Senator for raising this matter. The question posed by her as to whether there are any plans to introduce legislation to tackle higher prices charged by traders in this jurisdiction as compared with prices charged in the neighbouring UK jurisdiction seems to presume that price control measures can protect consumers from what may be per- ceived as high or unjustified prices. In so far as the general issue of tackling high prices is concerned, price control measures are not an effective means of reducing prices. During the 1970s and 1980s price control was used as one of the primary tools for combating increasing consumer prices and inflation. Various analyses of that period have shown that price control was an ineffective way of tackling high prices, as in many instances maximum prices prescribed for goods very quickly became minimum prices with the result that inflation during that period rose 38 12 March 2013 close to 20%. In addition to failing to tackle high prices, price control also effectively acted as a disincentive to businesses becoming more efficient and further prevented justified price rises arising from legitimate cost increases incurred by business. It was for that reason that the Con- sumer Protection Act 2007 essentially repealed the legislation which allowed for price control and there are no plans to revisit the matter.

As regards differentials in prices for goods in this jurisdiction when compared with prices in the neighbouring UK jurisdiction, there can be legitimate reasons for prices to differ, such as exchange rate movements, different distributional costs, etc. Notwithstanding this, I do not doubt there may be instances where the level of the differential in prices charged for the same goods in the two jurisdictions cannot be justified by reasons such as exchange rate movements. In such instances, it is important that consumers use their discretion. I read the article to which the Senator refers and it is interesting to note a comment made by Mr. Mark Gould of MG Con- sulting who states:

Everyone is on the web, you can see what a retailer is charging in Britain versus the Republic, so why everyone hasn’t responded to that transparency I don’t really understand. Retailers that get caught on this only have themselves to blame.

We all have access to the Internet and consumers can exercise their power. Their price sen- sitivity can determine purchasing behaviour, particularly as it relates to conspicuous consump- tion.

In contrast to the price control era of the 1970s and the 1980s, Government policy in the area of prices has been focused on the promotion of competition and consumer awareness, given that freely functioning competitive markets are more effective at setting fair prices. In so far as promoting greater consumer awareness of prices is concerned, the Consumer Protection Act 2007 specifically mandates the National Consumer Agency to promote public awareness and conduct public information campaigns on issues such as prices. The agency has been very active in raising awareness of prices in a number of different areas. Evidence available to it shows that consumers are becoming more price conscious and changing their shopping habits to achieve better value for their money. It is the case, therefore, that competition and price awareness among consumers are more effective tools to tackle high prices than the price control policies of the past.

As regards general price trends, the consumer price index published by the Central Statistics Office shows that prices in Ireland rose by 1.2% in the 12 months to January 2013, whereas the corresponding index in the UK, the retail prices index, shows that prices there increased by 3.3% in the same period. At the European level, the harmonised index of consumer prices, which is the accepted measure for comparing price trends across the European Union, shows that prices in Ireland increased by 1.7% in 2012 as compared with an increase of 2.3% across the Union and 2.7% in the United Kingdom in the same period.

I am firmly of the view that consumers, by exercising the power they command, are better placed to ensure they get a fair deal than any legislative intervention that would seek to regu- late the prices traders charge for goods and services. Accordingly, by informing themselves as to the different offerings in the marketplace and being strategic in their shopping decisions, consumers can help to ensure they achieve the best value for their money, which is all the more important in the current economic climate.

39 Seanad Éireann

12/03/2013DD00200Senator Catherine Noone: I thank the Minister of State for his reply. Many of the points he makes are well considered. I am perhaps showing my age when I assure him that price com- parisons between the UK and Ireland in the 1970s and 1980s were not on my radar at the time. I will contact the National Consumer Agency to ask that it increase its efforts to improve public awareness of price differentials. If it has the funding to do so, it should conduct public information campaigns on the issue. I agree with the Minister of State that the Government cannot be expected to cater for every circumstances that arises. If the view he expressed on price fixing is accurate, I would not encourage this approach. I thank him for his full response.

12/03/2013DD00300Deputy Sean Sherlock: I note the article in The Sunday Business Post of 24 February states that a shift dress on sale in the Monsoon chain is priced at £129 in Britain, which converts to just under €150, whereas the Irish price is €199. The word “shift” in Cork parlance has completely different connotations. Perhaps the Senator will enlighten me on the matter afterwards.

12/03/2013DD00400Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Perhaps the Minister of State and Senator Noone can meet later for a chat.

12/03/2013DD00500Senator Catherine Noone: I assure the Minister of State it is not a reference to the kind of shift he has in mind.

12/03/2013EE00100Agri-Environment Options Scheme Payments

12/03/2013EE00200Senator Lorraine Higgins: I welcome the Minister of State and thank him for taking this matter on the Adjournment. I seek clarification concerning the payment to farmers of grants under the agri-environment options scheme, AEOS. When will these payments be made? A large number of farmers in my local area, for example, in Athenry, Loughrea, Gort, Tuam and Kinvara, have been waiting for an unacceptably long time to have payments furnished to them. I understand farmers in the Galway East constituency are not alone and that numbers awaiting payment run into the thousands. Most of those affected are in an uncertain position and it is a source of frustration to them that payments are being held up for reasons that are not clear. The farmers in question have co-operated fully with the conditions of the scheme and are to be commended on the patience they have shown thus far. Farmers require certainty, however, regarding when payments will be made, given that in the current times they must manage tight farm budgets.

I am aware that administrative problems arose in the AEOS 2 scheme but the matters were resolved after some time had elapsed. It is clear that more targeted action must be taken to prevent a repeat of these problems. It is vital that farmers receive their AEOS 2 payments im- mediately and that all payments are made without undue delay. Farm incomes have declined significantly in recent years and in the current times the option of subsidising their income by securing off-farm employment is no longer available. For this reason, the types of financial supports provided under the agri-environment options scheme are vital for ensuring the con- tinuing success of local community focused farms. In the circumstances, I ask the Minister of State to confirm when the payments will be made and seek an assurance from the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine that he will undertake to ensure all payments will be made in a timely manner in future. I look forward to the Minister of State’s response.

12/03/2013EE00300Deputy Sean Sherlock: I thank Senator Higgins for raising this matter and convey the Minister’s regrets that he cannot attend this debate in person. To set the context, the position 40 12 March 2013 is that payments by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine under the agri-environment options scheme, or AEOS as it is commonly known, are well advanced at this stage. Before discussing the details, I emphasise the commitment of the Minister and Government to the agri-environment schemes, namely, AEOS and the rural environmental protection scheme, as operated by the Department. The schemes put environmentally friendly farming to the fore- front and recognise the vital role farmers play in delivering public goods in protecting the environment and natural heritage for the benefit of society as a whole. This commitment is evident in the fact that despite serious budgetary pressures facing his Department, the Minister opened AEOS to new applicants last year. In this regard, an additional €20 million was made available annually for five years to fund new applications under the scheme. This ongoing commitment is also evident in the fact that more than €750 million was spent by the Department on agri- environment schemes in the past three years alone, with a further €200 million available in 2013 under both REPS and AEOS.

There are currently almost 30,000 participants in REPS and their contracts will continue until expiry of the five year contract period in each case. The successor to REPS, the agri- environment options scheme, is a more targeted agri-environment scheme for which funding is provided from modulation funds under the Common Agricultural Policy health check. As Senators will be aware, AEOS specifically targets three challenges that have been assigned the highest priority at European Union level as needing urgent action. The format of the scheme is a menu type approach, as distinct from the whole farm approach adopted under REPS. It consists of actions which can be demonstrably linked to the three important challenges targeted.

There are approximately 15,000 participants in AEOS 1 and 2, which were opened to new participants in 2010 and 2011, respectively. The EU regulations governing the scheme and other area based schemes require that a full and comprehensive administrative check, including cross-checks with the land parcel identification system, is completed before any payment can issue. Previous EU audits have made it clear that compliance with the regulations must be strictly adhered to and all checks must be passed and eligibility conditions met before payment issues. This means payment cannot be released until all aspects of a farmer’s application are in order, all outstanding documentation provided and all queries resolved. These requirements are a significant administrative challenge, albeit one that the Department has successfully addressed.

The current position regarding payments under AEOS is that under AEOS 1, all outstanding payments due in respect of both 2010 and 2011 have been finalised.

5 o’clock

Of the 7,500 participants remaining in that scheme, nearly 6,500 have received payment in respect of 2012. The remaining cases are being cleared on an ongoing basis as queries are resolved.

There are 6,250 approved participants in AEOS 2, 5,300 of whom have received a payment in respect of 2011. The outstanding cases are being finalised as outstanding queries are received. Applicants have been informed of these outstanding queries and payments are being made on an ongoing basis as responses are received.

Last year saw the first full-year payment for AEOS 2 applicants. In order to activate payment where non-productive capital investments were selected, a valid capital investment claim

41 Seanad Éireann form was required. The high level of queries and farmer delays in submitting valid claims has resulted in a lower than expected level of 2012 payments under AEOS 2. In all, 2,500 have received payment at this stage. There are a large number of queries arising. To deal with the outstanding queries, additional resources have been directed to this area with the intention of clearing the backlog as soon as possible. The majority of the outstanding payments relate to applicants who chose a capital investment option, such as the planting of trees or hedgerows, on their AEOS contract. Under the scheme, payment for these options commences in 2012. In order to be paid for 2012, farmers must have submitted valid receipts.

Approximately 1,000 farmers have not submitted any claim form to date and of those who did, a very high percentage had queries which require further contact with the farmer. For these farmers, no part of their 2012 payment can be issued until they submit their receipts and the outstanding issues are resolved with them. The Department has contacted farmers who have not submitted claim forms at least twice, including where possible by phone, and is now dealing with replies received and outstanding queries. Where applicants have received correspondence in this regard, they should respond as soon as possible. On the basis of responses received from letters that have issued and the phone calls made by officials in the Department, the Minister aims to ensure that all outstanding cases are resolved in the shortest time possible.

As I have mentioned, AEOS 3 was opened to applications at the end of 2012. The funding of €20 million per annum that the Minister has provided will allow for approximately 4,000 new participants to be approved. The Department is currently processing the applications with a view to issuing approvals in the next few weeks. It is expected that payments will commence towards the end of the year.

I reaffirm the Government’s commitment to the agri-environment schemes. The Minister is at all times conscious of the importance of the payments to farmer’s incomes. He asked me to convey that he will ensure that his Department continues to make every effort to expedite all payments under these schemes.

12/03/2013FF00200Senator Lorraine Higgins: I thank the Minister of State for her response. It would be helpful if the Minister, Deputy Coveney, were here. Agriculture is his specific responsibility and there were a few points I wanted to put to him. I accept that if applications are not fully completed, it is very difficult to pay out. The reality is that quite a number of farmers have completed their application forms properly and would have expected to have been paid out in a timely manner. It would be extremely helpful to farmers, particularly those in my constituency, if the Minister indicated a timeframe, in terms of weeks or months, in which farmers will be paid. Ultimately, they have financial and other commitments, and they have creditors whom they are expected to pay, just like anybody else. They are totally reliant on schemes such as the AEOS to assist them in that regard.

I acknowledge and welcome the additional resources provided by the Minister to ensure payments will be made. I ask the Minister of State to pass on my thanks to the Minister in that regard. I urge the Minister to indicate a timeframe in which the payments will be made and to make a public statement on the matter.

12/03/2013FF00300Deputy Sean Sherlock: I fully acknowledge the points made by Senator Higgins. To be helpful, I will make sure to speak to the Minister on the issues she has outlined in respect of her constituency. A legitimate question arises if no queries arose regarding individual farmers’ applications and if the files still have not been dealt with expeditiously. I will certainly relate 42 12 March 2013 this to the Minister.

The Seanad adjourned at 5.05 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 13 March 2013.