An Interview by Kenneth R. Thompson Fred Luthans University of Nebraska-Lincoln, [email protected]

An Interview by Kenneth R. Thompson Fred Luthans University of Nebraska-Lincoln, Fluthans1@Unl.Edu

University of Nebraska - Lincoln DigitalCommons@University of Nebraska - Lincoln

Management Department Faculty Publications Management Department

2015 Fred Luthans—The Anatomy of a 50-Year Academic Career: An Interview by Kenneth R. Thompson Fred Luthans University of Nebraska-Lincoln, [email protected]

Kenneth R. Thompson DePaul University, [email protected]

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Luthans, Fred and Thompson, Kenneth R., "Fred Luthans—The Anatomy of a 50-Year Academic Career: An Interview by Kenneth R. Thompson" (2015). Management Department Faculty Publications. 132. http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/managementfacpub/132

This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Management Department at DigitalCommons@University of Nebraska - Lincoln. It has been accepted for inclusion in Management Department Faculty Publications by an authorized administrator of DigitalCommons@University of Nebraska - Lincoln. Published in Journal of Leadership & Organizational Studies 22:4 (2015), pp. 387–394; doi: 10.1177/1548051815594885 Copyright © 2015 Fred Luthans and Kenneth R. Thompson. Published by SAGE Publications. Used by permission. digitalcommons.unl.edudigitalcommons.unl.edu

Fred Luthans—The Anatomy of a 50-Year Academic Career: An Interview by Kenneth R. Thompson 59

Corresponding author — Kenneth R. Thompson, Kellstadt Graduate School of Business, DePaul University, 1 East Jackson Boulevard, Chicago, IL 60604, USA; email [email protected]

As the recipient of the 2014 Midwest Academy of Man- will try to formulate my questions in order to clar- agement Distinguished Scholar Award, Professor Fred Lu- ify things for myself. However, from a career devel- thans’s interview by Senior Editor Ken Thompson is in- opment standpoint, what I think may be of most cluded in this Midwest Academy’s annual special issue interest to others is for you to look back and iden- of JLOS. tify what triggered some of the pivotal points in your now 50-year career path. My goal is to keep this very informal and conversational. Let’s start Fred Luthans received his BA, MBA, and PhD from the with this question: What motivated you to get into University of Iowa. He is a University and George Holmes teaching and research? Distinguished Professor of Management at the University of Nebraska. Before coming to Nebraska in 1967, while Fred: That’s actually a hard question to answer because serving as an officer in the U.S. Army, he taught psychol- I think in my case, it just kind of evolved, rather ogy and leadership at the U.S. Military Academy at West than this was something I always wanted to do. Point. He is a former President of the Midwest and Na- While growing up in Clinton, Iowa, on the Missis- tional Academy of Management. He was or is editor or sippi River, when I was in high school, I took books co-editor of Journal of World Business, Organizational Dy- home, but I never really looked at them. In other namics, and Journal of Leadership & Organization Studies. words, I was not a scholarly, intellectual type. In- He is the author of several well-known books and over stead, I hung out with my friends, and we were 200 articles. In total, his work is approaching 30,000 cita- mostly into sports. We watched and played foot- tions and his current H-Index is 76. His research at first fo- ball in the fall, basketball in the winter, track in the cused on a behavioral approach to management or what spring, and baseball in the summer. he formulated and called O.B. Mod. (organizational be- Ken: Where do you think your eventual interest in edu- havior modification). In recent years, he has given rela- cation came from? tively more attention to the theory building, measure- Fred: My parents were very much into the value of an ed- ment, and impact of what he founded and has termed ucation. My dad was the youngest of 10 children “positive organizational behavior (POB)” and “psycholog- in a hardworking family of German descent. He ical capital (PsyCap).” For further information, see his en- and all of his siblings turned out to be successful, try in Wikipedia, some interviews on YouTube, or his pro- but he was the only one who graduated from high file in Google Scholar. school. Obviously, he was very much into education, as also was my mother who was from an Iowa Ken: Fred, first of all, congratulations on receiving the farm family also of German descent. She gradu- Midwest Academy’s Distinguished Scholar Award ated from a type of commercial trade or what she and allowing us to do this interview. We both have called a “Business School.” She wanted me to be a deep ties to the Midwest, but I feel especially priv- high school teacher. With those kinds of values and ileged to do this interview for them because I was support from my parents, it was just assumed that I your student and received my doctorate under you would go to college, and it was also assumed that at the University of Nebraska long ago and have I would go to the University of Iowa. I was never kept in close contact through the years. I, of course, asked and we never explored any alternatives. know much about your background and work and Ken: Why Iowa?

387 388 K. R. Thompson in Journal of Leadership & Organizational Studies 22 (2015)

Fred: Because that’s where almost everybody in my were certainly some important moments or trig- hometown in Eastern Iowa went and, with no ger points while at Iowa that definitely shaped my pro teams in the state, we were all fervent Hawk- career. An obvious one was when Dr. Albers asked eye fans of all sports. In addition, my only sibling, me if I would be interested in going on for a PhD Nancy, was already there. Therefore, I went to Iowa in management, but a more subtle pivotal point for and just kept going. I ran hurdles on the track team, me was choosing psychology as a minor. In those met and dated my future wife, Kay, and majored in days, most of my fellow doctoral students took math for my bachelor’s degree. Then I went on for their supporting course work in economics and an MBA, where I became interested, really for the I also took quite a few, especially labor econom- first time, and intellectually curious about my man- ics. Remember, organizational behavior or strategy agement course taught by Senior Professor Henry were not generally recognized fields at that time, H. Albers. He urged me to go on for a PhD. in man- so I majored in management from Albers, person- agement under his tutelage, and I quickly jumped nel and labor relations from Wortman, organization at this opportunity and never looked back. theory from Cal Hoyt (a Cal-Berkley educated or- Ken: Besides Albers, whom I know you have always ganizational sociologist) and a strong outside mi- touted as being a true pioneer by having one of nor in psychology. There was only one course in my the very first Principles of Management texts and minor that was called “industrial psychology,” so I his inspiring intellect, what other mentors at Iowa took my course work in social and behavioral psy- stood out for you? chology. These courses were taken in basically the same psychology program at Iowa from which the Fred: Yes, Professor Albers was a great mentor to me, not famous Albert Bandura had graduated with his MA only as a doctoral student but also in my early ca- and PhD about a decade or so earlier. I have always reer. The year after I came to Nebraska, he became proudly followed Bandura’s groundbreaking theory the founding department of management chair and building and research throughout my career, from I always give him credit not only for my PhD but behaviorism to social learning to social cognition also for challenging and supporting me in writing to efficacy to agency. In formulating my approach my Organizational Behavior text and at the same throughout my career, this psych background has time to do quality basic research in this just emerg- proved to be invaluable. ing field. In addition, after I had been in the Iowa doctoral program a year or two, Max Wortman was Ken: Thanks for sharing that early background. What did hired out of the strong University of Minnesota per- you do after graduating? sonnel and labor relations program. Max not only Fred: I received my degree in 1965, at the age of 25, and provided me with a sound grounding in what be- that period was the start of the buildup for the came known as human resource management but Vietnam War. I had gone through Army ROTC and also taught me how to write articles. I had seven ac- received my commission after my bachelor’s de- cepted articles with him by the time I graduated. He gree but then took an educational delay. I knew I also greatly helped me in my early career by pre- had to report for my 2 years of active duty as soon ceding me as President of the Midwest Academy of as I graduated with my PhD, so a trigger moment Management and the National Academy of Man- for me is when I proactively went to my ROTC Col- agement. Furthermore, he put me on his editorial onel, a West Point graduate, to see if I could be as- board when he was the founding editor of AMR. signed there to use my education to teach leader- In other words, I was extremely lucky to have two ship. It worked, but I had to go to Infantry School great mentors from my University of Iowa roots. first, to give me some military polish and credibil- Ken: What were some of the pivotal trigger moments ity. The day after I became a doctor, I was doing for your career that came from your graduate stu- push-ups at the “request” of a big burly drill ser- dent days at Iowa? geant in the red clay at Fort Benning, Georgia. At the end of these 9 weeks of what I will call, “chal- Fred: That is a good question. Bruce Avolio empha- lenging” infantry training, all my classmates, ex- sizes the importance of “the moments that mat- cept for me, were shipped off to Vietnam to fight in ter” to one’s development and that was the title some of the initial big battles. The movie We Were of an interview I did about a decade ago for my Soldiers starring Mel Gibson was based on a true former close Nebraska colleague Steve Sommer in story about getting ready at Ft. Benning and then Journal of Management Inquiry. In my case, there Interview with Fred Luthans—Anatomy of a 50-Year Academic Career 389

fighting, suffering massive casualties, in the Bat- a group dynamics and applied anthropology per- tle of la Drang during November 1965. Right be- spective. I was also able to attend a program given fore they left Benning, I reported for duty to teach by Chris Argyris at Columbia’s Harriman House up at West Point. I always say my education probably the river from West Point in the beautiful Hudson saved my life, because many of my Benning class- Valley. I always give Chris much of the credit for my mates never came back. conceptualization of organizational behavior. Later, Ken: How did you find West Point? through my involvement in the Academy of Man- agement, I became close friends with the some- Fred: I loved it. The cadets were unbelievable; the best of what older Lyman Porter and give him credit for my the best and my fellow officers treated me great. emphasizing the importance of basic research and They all were all gung-ho infantry majors and a micro psychological perspective to OB. I consider above and I was a lowly first lieutenant the first Port to be the father of OB as we know it today. year and captain the second year and a real novice. However, I had the PhD and most of my high-rank- Ken: Any final thoughts about your obviously important ing colleagues were just coming out of masters’ time at West Point? programs to prepare them for this assignment to Fred: In the second year, our first child, Kristin, was born, teach. They knew what went into getting the doc- and that cut way down our trips to the City, but New torate and respected me for it. In contrast, when I York’s loss was our big gain. The sad part of our stay was in training at Benning, if a major came through was that more and more of the great young men I the area it created a real buzz and as a trainee I had as seniors the first year were now being shipped had no status. The drill sergeant loved to sarcas- back from Vietnam in caskets to be buried at the tically call me “Doc.” When teaching about status West Point Cemetery. I believe the Class of 1967 had in my classes, I relay this experience. However, to the largest mortality rate of any in the history of the reinforce the value of a higher education, I espe- Academy. Overall, this 2 years at West Point at the cially love telling them that as a junior officer at beginning of my career was, in retrospect, a huge West Point, I had more status than the senior of- advantage to me that other young professors start- ficers because of my degree. This status was also ing off are not able to experience. given to me by the cadets. They knew the very few Ken: When did you start at Nebraska? junior officers at the Academy were only there be- Fred: I ended my 2 years of active duty in May of 1967 cause they had a PhD. The lesson here is that sta- and was given the opportunity to stay on as a tus is relative, and values and context matter. member of the permanent military faculty. At that Ken: How did the time at West Point help your academic time, there were no civilian instructors or women career? cadets at West Point. I considered staying because Fred: Because I did not have the pressure of a tenure we really enjoyed it there and the incentive was I clock ticking away, I had time to work on my teach- could retire as a Brigadier General. However, we ing, not only leadership but also the required psy- missed being close to family, and we decided to chology course. As you can imagine, this is how test the academic market in the Midwest. After sev- I really learned and became confident about my eral attractive offers at great schools, I came to Ne- understanding of psychology. I also had time to braska as an associate professor (so I was never an read in depth books and articles that I often only assistant professor) for $11,700, and I have never had time to skim through in graduate school. Best regretted this decision now after 48 years. of all, however, was that during the first year, Kay Ken: Who did you work with at Nebraska? and I were able to take full advantage of the cul- Fred: Well, a young Richard Hodgetts was in his second tural life of New York City, only an hour away, see- year out of Indiana University, and we hit it off right ing all the Broadway shows, events at Carnegie Hall away as close friends and collaborators. I was best and pro sports, all free thanks to the USO. Also be- man at his wedding, and we wrote articles, and later cause of the Army, I was very fortunate to be able textbooks, on Social Issues in Business, that we even- take free to me postdoctoral courses at Colum- tually brought you in on, Ken, about the third or bia in the City from Bill Newman, who was a Presi- fourth edition, Introduction to Business, and Inter- dent of the Academy and a pioneer in the strategy national Management, still going strong after nine field, and Leonard Sayles, who was doing some of editions now with coauthor Jonathan Doh. Richard the original work in organizational behavior from 390 K. R. Thompson in Journal of Leadership & Organizational Studies 22 (2015)

was a one-of-a-kind great guy and too young when and research articles, several now approaching a he died of cancer several years ago. thousand citations, and two books. The first one, Ken: You already told me that Albers came as the first called the High Impact Leader (on authentic lead- departmental chair in your second year, who else ership), he took the lead on, and the second one, did you work closely with? Psychological Capital my former doctoral student and since close collaborator, Carolyn Youssef-Mor- Fred: After Albers left, Sang Lee was hired as chair, and gan, and I took the lead. Bruce has since moved on we became very close as colleagues and friends. to the University of Washington, but I will always I was also best man at his wedding. He is a world be thankful to him for our ground breaking collab- renowned management scientist (an AOM Fellow orative research and for him taking the initiative and former President of DSI) and gives true mean- and organizing a festschrift for me. This “festival ing to being a global scholar. He introduced me to of writing to honor a senior scholar” was a won- the world stage, especially in Asia but also I was a derful event with many of my former doctoral stu- key team member, along with our close colleague dents and close colleagues giving papers and hav- and friend Les Digman, on his dozen year U.S. AID ing panel discussions on PsyCap that resulted in a project in Albania. Starting in 1992, this devastated special issue in JLOS. We all had a great time cele- East European country was making the transition brating and roasting me. from communism to democracy and a free enter- prise economy. Our too numerous to count trips Ken: You mention Carolyn. What about your other doc- provided life-changing experiences for all of us. We toral students? owe it all to Sang’s hard work and caring, authen- Fred: Through the years, and now, my closest collab- tic leadership. We remain travel and golf partners orators have been my doctoral students. I have today. been very fortunate to have many great ones, and Ken: Who else? I frankly could not have accomplished my record without them. I could start naming them, but let Fred: Although not at Nebraska, I cannot leave out the me simply say that in each phase of my career I help and friendship John Slocum has given me over had wonderful doctoral students, and I truly mean the years. We were together in the leadership of that they helped me more than I helped them. One the Academy of Management 30 years ago, we run needs only to look at my résumé to pick out the three journals together, including JLOS, and he has major contributions they have made throughout always served as a sounding board and confidant my career. for me. More recently, Gary Latham has also been very helpful to me. The same is true for you, Ken. Ken: What were some other pivotal triggers for you? You have always been there for me and of course Fred: Of course, the biggest one was marrying Kay. I lit- play a major role, along with Managing Editor Julia erally could not have done it without her. For ex- Teahen and Sage’s Cynthia Nalevanko, as the ed- ample, not only did she provide loving support itorial team for JLOS. Closer to home, a big influ- but also financial support as a high school English ence on my more recent career was when Sang and teacher, while I was in grad school. Then through I hired the widely recognized leadership scholar the years, she reared our four children Kristin, Brett, Bruce Avolio as founding Director of Nebraska’s Kyle, and Paige. I was at the university during the Gallup Leadership Institute. Bruce and I immedi- day and in the evening, I followed my ritual of writ- ately became close friends and saw synergies being from 7 to 11 pm, followed by an hour on the tween his research/theory development going treadmill, except if the kids had something, which from transformational to authentic leadership and I never missed. Starting in the late 1960s, it took my work going from positive reinforcement and me 4 years following this routine to write my OB OB Mod to positive organizational behavior and text. I have been doing it ever since, except now, I PsyCap. Through Bruce’s personal leadership and take time out for the grandchildren’s activities and, hard work, he quickly built a worldclass institute of course, as you know Kay and I have always at- and, in my opinion, the best leadership doctoral tended Husker football and men’s and women’s program in the country. Except for writing text- basketball and volleyball. books with Hodgetts, I had seldom collaborated Ken: What were the triggers for your well-known re- on research and writing with my faculty colleagues, search streams? until Bruce. We coauthored some landmark theory Interview with Fred Luthans—Anatomy of a 50-Year Academic Career 391

Fred: Well, once again I was very fortunate to be in the what were some parallel interests and research you right places at the right times. In the late 1960s, were working on during this OB Mod period of while I was writing the text in the evenings, I was your career? teaching my classes at the university but also do- Fred: You are right. I would say I had two major parallel ing management training programs for administra- interests I was working on, especially as OB Mod tors and staff of the Nebraska Mental Health Sys- began to mature. The first was when Sang Lee trig- tem. One time, while we were traveling across the gered in me the importance of globalization. Our state together, the Director, an MD psychiatrist, ca- many trips abroad, and especially over the long sually asked me, “Fred, why don’t you incorporate Albanian project, led me to do a number of inter- some positive reinforcement, behavior modification national studies and continue to put a lot of effort into your management of people approaches? We into continually updating Hodgetts and my Inter- are finding these techniques have a dramatic pos- national Management text. itive impact on managing our patients’ behavior The second parallel stream was more unique and in our clinical practice.” That question hit me like a specific triggered by Henry Mintzberg’s widely rec- ton of bricks. I immediately harkened back to my ognized observational study and subsequent book behavioral psychology classes and thought to my- on the Nature of Managerial Work. His study struck self, “Why don’t we in the management and lead- a chord in me, but also triggered three questions ership field draw from reinforcement theory and that I felt he left unanswered. Unlike Mintzberg’s in- the recently emerging behavioral technology be- tense study of only five senior Canadian executives, ing successfully used in clinical psychology?” That I wanted to try to gain more insight, if not the an- trigger question set off in me a determined passion swer, to the broader question of what do managers to bring behavioral psychology to the workplace. in general, at all levels, functions and types of orga- Ken: How did you carry out this passion? nizations (what I termed “Real Managers”) really do? Fred: I immediately believed that this behavioral ap- I was not satisfied with the normative answers pro- proach was the answer I was searching for instead vided by the textbooks, without empirical research of the prevailing largely non-researchbased, vague, evidence. The same was true for what popular CEOs human relations approach to managing people. and media stars of the time, such as Lee Iacocca or Again, with my first doctoral students, Don White Jack Welch, had to say about what practicing man- and mostly Bob Kreitner, we published conceptual agers should be doing. More important to me was articles in the early 1970s and in 1975, a book that to empirically determine what managers in general branded this new approach as Organizational Be- do in their day-to-day activities, and, especially, what havior Modification or OB Mod. In addition, with do successful and effective “Real Managers” do and subsequent doctoral students, we conducted basic is there a difference between the two. research published in the top journals such as J A P, Ken: How did you study these big questions? Personnel Psychology, and AMJ to clearly demon- Fred: Taking the lead from Mintzberg, I did not believe strate this, new OB Mod approach had an evidence- that the overused and problematic selfreport based positive impact on employee performance methodologies would get at the “really” part of and could be readily applied. After almost 30 years my three research questions. Thus, I decided to do of this stream of research and a couple of meta- an observational study. In situ, naturalistic obser- analyses, led by my former doctoral student, Alex vational methods and qualitative and quantitative Stajkovic, now a chaired professor at the University or mixed analyses are often talked about as being of Wisconsin, I felt we had truly brought behavioral ideal but very seldom conducted. This is because psychology to the workplace. I was now ready for a of the difficulty, time commitment and cooperation paradigm shift to another new approach. needed, especially with the relatively large sample Ken: I know one of the key career strategic recommen- I wanted to use for generalizability and the use of dations you give to your doctoral students and both qualitative and quantitative analyses. There- young professors is to have a primary research fore, I needed, and was able to obtain, a large re- stream, but to also have one or more other inter- search grant from ONR (Office of Naval Research) ests, you are working on at the same time. Your that, at that time, was funding behavioral science advice in terms of electrical circuitry is to work in research that did not necessarily directly affect parallel, not in series. Following your own advice, the Navy. Over the next 4 or 5 years, my doctoral 392 K. R. Thompson in Journal of Leadership & Organizational Studies 22 (2015)

students and I developed a Leader Observation activities that our business schools are largely System, developed the protocol and trained stu- based upon, and the greater than expected time dent and participant observers, recruited a wide spent in networking that is seldom given attention cross-section of organizations and managers, con- in business schools or conventional wisdom. ducted a series of studies to answer the research Ken: What about your other two research questions? questions, and published the results in articles and, Fred: Of greater interest was what separate studies then with Hodgetts and one of my former doctoral stu- found out about successful and effective managers. dents, Stu Rosenkrantz, the book Real Managers. Of course, it depends on how success and effec- Interestingly, widely recognized leadership scholar tiveness are defined, but we tried to operationally Bob Hogan has recently discovered this research define success as best we could by creating a rela- and is currently in the process of republishing this tively objective success index made up of the level 1988 book through his company. in the hierarchy of the observed manager over his Ken: What were some of the specifics of the study? or her organizational tenure. This is basically a rate Fred: Very briefly, in the first phase, trained student ob- or speed of promotion index, which has been used servers kept detailed logs of the day-today activi- in previous research. We found, again through var- ties of a wide variety of 44 managers during a dif- ious analyses of the observational data, that net- ferent hour each day for 2 weeks. Then, a panel working made the largest relative input (not time consisting of experts and nonexperts used the spent) into the observed managers’ success, and Delphi technique of anonymous input, composite human resources activities made the least relative feedback, and iterations to reduce the 440 hours contribution. In other words, we empirically found of free observation into, at first, an agreed upon what many have suspected. Those who play the 12, and then, four categories of managerial activity. game effectively give relatively more attention to These categories made up of directly observed be- socializing, politicking, and interacting with outsid- haviors were deemed to be (a) traditional manage- ers, are more successful in terms of rapidly getting ment (planning, decision making, and controlling); ahead in their organizations. (b) communication; (c) human resource manage- In terms of the analysis of managerial effec- ment; and (d) networking (interacting with outsid- tiveness, which we defined as an index made up ers and socializing/politicking). Using these catego- of a sum of the managers’ subordinates’ satisfac- ries as a behavioral checklist, trained organizational tion, commitment, and perceptions of the quality participant observers, who had knowledgeable and and quantity of performance of the unit, we found visual contact with a wide variety of target manag- quite different results. In this analysis of the ob- ers in several different types of organizations, re- served managers’ activities, communication and corded what they were doing in a random 10-min- human resource management made by far the ute period every hour for 2 weeks (a total of about greatest relative contribution (again not necessar- 80 observations per manager). ily the amount of time) to their effectiveness and Ken: What did you find in this first phase of the study traditional management, and especially network- which was aimed at answering the first question ing, contributed the least. of what do real managers do in their day-to-day Ken: In other words, the successful managers, those who activities? were being promoted the most rapidly, the “fast Fred: These data indicated that managers on average trackers” if you will, were not doing the same ac- spend about a third of their time on what we de- tivities as the effective managers, those with sat- fined, through the previous free observation, on isfied and committed subordinates and judged to the traditional management activities; almost a have high performing units? third on communication; a fifth on human resource Fred: Correct! When comparing the top third with the management activities, and almost a fifth on net- bottom third of both the successful and effective working activities. There were some slight differ- samples, the successful managers were not gen- ences but nothing significant by the type of orga- erally the same as the effective managers. Ideally, nization, level or function of the observed manager. we would like the successful and effective manag- No big surprises here of what real managers re- ers to be the same. The effective managers should ally do. The exceptions were perhaps the less than be the ones being promoted. But that is not what expected time spent on traditional management we found. In fact, further analysis indicated that Interview with Fred Luthans—Anatomy of a 50-Year Academic Career 393

the few, who were both successful and effective, Ken: Was there a study that stood out from the rest in barely made it into the top third of both groups. terms of meeting the criteria you had established This counterintuitive, but interesting, finding could for POB and that provided research support for maybe help explain some of the underlying prob- combining the four positive constructs into what lems organizations have in trying to complete in you termed Psychological Capital or PsyCap in- the global economy. troduced in two 2004 articles published with your Ken: Interesting food for thought and maybe could be- sons, Brett Luthans and Kyle Luthans and with come a trigger for someone looking for a new re- Carolyn? search path. But for us, let’s get back to the par- Fred: Yes, definitely. The real key, foundational research adigm shift you mentioned for your primary study by Luthans, Avolio, Avey, and Norman (2007) research interest, post-OB Mod. published in Personnel Psychology (now up to Fred: Yes, that would be another fortuitous trigger mo- about a thousand citations) was where we vali- ment sending me on my current passion and re- dated our measure and clearly demonstrated that search stream. While working with the Gallup Orga- combining the four POB constructs of hope, effi- nization, which at that time was headquartered in cacy, resilience, and optimism into Psychological Lincoln, in 1999, I was able to attend the first Pos- Capital (PsyCap) out predicted each of these in- itive Psychology Summit hosted by Gallup. Based dividual components on satisfaction and perfor- on my positive reinforcement background and per- mance. This study also showed this second-order, spective, I was very interested in what Seligman, core construct of PsyCap was more stable over Diener, Fredrickson, Csikszentmihalyi, and the other time than positive emotions and less stable than founding positive psychologists were saying. How- personality and core self-evaluation traits. Thus, ever, I soon realized they were almost solely con- we demonstrated the “state-like” nature of PsyCap. cerned with basic understanding and clinical appli- In addition, as we had done with OB Mod, at this cations. The light went on for me, as it had in my time, we published with Oxford University Press early career with behavioral psychology. I was go- our first PsyCap book. Now, 8 years later, we have ing to take positive psychology to the workplace. published numerous other basic research studies verifying and adding to the foundational article Ken: How did you operationalize this new found and have just come out with a new and greatly ex- mission? panded version of our PsyCap book titled Psycho- Fred: To avoid the mistakes that I thought the popu- logical Capital and Beyond. A few years ago, with lar, but then not scientifically sound, positively ori- James Avey taking the lead, we also published a ented concept and emerging workplace applica- supporting meta-analysis of 51 PsyCap studies and tions of emotional intelligence had made, I quickly are currently in the process of refining and expand- established the criteria that must be met to be in- ing PsyCap to multiple levels and multiple domains. cluded in what I termed as “positive organizational Ken: What has been the reaction to PsyCap? behavior (POB).” These criteria were (a) theory and research foundation; (b) valid measurement; (c) Fred: The reaction around the world has been very grat- statelike (as opposed to trait-like) and thus open ifying from both academics and practitioners. A to change and development; and (d) positive im- recent comprehensive independent review of 66 pact on desired employee attitudes, behaviors, and articles by Alexander Newman and colleagues performance. I then searched the positive psychol- published in JOB was quite favorable on all as- ogy literature and determined that hope, efficacy, pects of PsyCap. The same was true of an in-depth resilience, and optimism, or what I called the HERO psychometric critical review of the PsyCap con- within, best met these inclusion criteria. I branded struct and measure by Sara Dawkins, Angela Mar- and published this POB in an article in the Journal tin, and colleagues published in JOOP. There has of Organizational Behavior that came out in 2002. been a steep upward trajectory of published re- Then, just as I had done with OB Mod, but this time search articles on PsyCap and to date, well, over with my colleague, Bruce Avolio, and our doctoral 2,200 formal requests for our PsyCap question- students, especially Carolyn Youssef-Morgan, James naire (PCQ-24 and PCQ-12) from mindgarden. Avey, and Suzanne Peterson, we conducted basic com that administers this permission process free research with all types of dependent variables. of charge. In terms of objective impact, a recent check of Google Scholar indicated I had citations 394 K. R. Thompson in Journal of Leadership & Organizational Studies 22 (2015)

approaching 30,000 (current h-index 76) and about Also, I take on emeritus status from Nebraska in 18,000 (h-index 57) since 2010 that would almost the fall. I will no longer teach formal courses, but all be related to PsyCap. So I would say PsyCap is I will continue to give PsyCap programs, as I have now widely recognized. been doing around the world, and continue to do Ken: What about with practitioners? research on refining PsyCap in terms antecedents, mediation/moderation, and predicting new depen- Fred: The beauty of PsyCap from the beginning is that it dent variables. However, I will mainly concentrate has intuitive appeal to almost everyone. Who can on expanding PsyCap into team, organizational, argue with the power of positivity and the HERO and community/country levels of analysis, apply to within? This recognized importance of positivity underutilized domains such as health care, educa- over negativity has been around forever. However, tion, military/police, and nonprofits, and, especially, a positive management approach also was not nec- overall well-being. So far, we have just touched the essarily treated seriously, either by skeptical aca- surface of each of these, but all seem to have un- demics nor hardheaded, results-oriented practitio- limited potential for expanding the reach of PsyCap ners. It was written off as too much fluff, balloons, into the future. and smiley faces. This is why, from the beginning, I set up my scientifically based inclusion criteria and Ken: Fred, thanks so much for giving us this overview of conducted supporting basic research published in your amazing career and especially recalling spe- the top journals. I deliberately did this to give our cific trigger moments that mattered in each step positive approach credibility and evidence-based of the way. Any final thoughts you might share? impact that academics could agree with and prac- Fred: Just thanks to the Midwest Academy of Manage- titioners could understand, appreciate, and apply. ment for the award and Editors Megan Gerhardt It also helped a lot when we were able to show and Joy Peluchette for allowing me the opportu- through sophisticated utility analysis, using as- nity to share my career journey in their special issue sumptions and equations from my colleague and of JLOS. Finally, I want to thank you, Ken, not only friend, Wayne Cascio and others in the HR litera- for doing this interview but for your many contri- ture and real data from a PsyCap training program butions to our field and the Midwest and National led by James Avey of engineers in a large aero- AOM, your editorial leadership of JLOS, and mostly space firm, the well over 200% return on invest- your friendship. Family and friends always matter ment (ROI) from psychological capital. This dollar, most! bottom-line impact, of course, is very appealing to practitioners and organizations’ HR programs. Con- sultants and consulting companies throughout the Author Biography world are also beginning to feature PsyCap. Unfor- Kenneth R. Thompson, PhD (Nebraska) is professor of Manage- tunately, this usage is often without any attribution ment at the Kellstadt Graduate School of Business, DePaul Uni- to our published original terms, conceptualizations, versity. Ken is a Master Senior Examiner for the American Health and research support. Care Association and was a Senior Examiner for the Malcolm Bal- drige National Performance Award Program, and a Senior Lead Where do you go from here? Ken: Examiner for the Illinois State Quality Award. Ken’s research fo- Fred: Frankly, at this point in my career and life’s jour- cuses on the behavioral aspects of goal setting and employee ney, I am not looking for another paradigm shift. management.