Issue 203 November 2009 The TALKERS magazine interview

Progressive multimedia entrepreneur Thom Hartmann

hen the subject of progressive England Salem Children's Village (1978) and talk radio comes up and indus- The Hunter School (1997), he has led national W try professionals and observers innovations in the areas of residential treat- alike question its viability, the name Thom ment for abused children and private/public His most recent books are Screwed: The Hartmann is invariably cited as a prime education for learning-disabled children. Undeclared War Against the Middle Class, The example of its successes and, even more Hartmann is the four-time Project Censored Edison Gene, The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight, importantly, its potential for success. He is Award-winning, New York Times best-selling Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate listed on TALKERS magazine's 2009 Heavy author with 19 books currently in print in more Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights, We Hundred as the 10th Most Important Radio than a dozen languages on five continents. The People: A Call to Take Back America, and Talk Show Host in America and in the trade He is the former executive director of a resi- What Would Jefferson Do? journal’s Top Talk Audiences ranking slot at dential treatment program for emotionally dis- He’s also contributed to the American #9 with a weekly cume of more than 2 million turbed and abused children, and has helped set economy: In the business world he has found- listeners. His daily radio show, “The Thom up hospitals, famine-relief programs, schools, ed seven corporations over the past 30 years, Hartmann Program,” which airs live from and refugee centers in India, Uganda, Australia, five of which he has sold and are still thriving. 12:00 noon to 3:00 pm ET, is a budding Colombia, Russia and the United States through These include a magazine and an advertising cross-platform phenomenon heard not only the German-based Salem International pro- agency. on an impressive affiliate roster of more than gram. Formerly rostered with the State of In his fir st radio career, Hartmann worked 50 commercial news/talk stations across the Vermont as a psychotherapist, founder of The from 1968 to 1978 as a DJ, reporter, news nation including Los Angeles, Chicago, Michigan Healing Arts Center, and licensed as anchor, and program director for a variety of Miami, Dallas, San Francisco, Atlanta, Detroit, an NLP Trainer by Richard Bandler (who wrote commercial radio stations in Michigan. S eattle, Portland, Pittsburgh and Memphis, the foreword to one of Thom’s books), he Coming back behind the microphone, but on an array of other platforms including was the originator of the revolutionary Hartmann began in Spring 2002 a “liberal” Sirius XM Satellite Radio, public broadcast- “Hunter/Farmer Hypothesis” to understand talk radio show on a small station in Vermont ing’s Pacifica Radio, Free Speech TV and his the psychiatric condition known as Attention which led to a daily morning show at KPOJ in own YouTube channel. Deficit Hyperactive Disorder (ADHD). A Portland, Oregon and the independent launch Thom Hartmann is a modern renaissance guest faculty member at Goddard College of his nationally syndicated program distrib- man whose radio career can be broken down in Vermont, he also synthesized the uted by the Jones Satellite Network. into two chapters separated by several “Younger/Older Culture model” for describing The father of three grown children, he lives decades of colorful projects and adventures the underpinnings –– and possible solutions –– in Portland, Oregon with his wife Louise. The that include being an internationally known to the world’s ecological and socio-political TALKERS magazine interview with Thom speaker as well as an innovator in the fields of crises, suggesting that many of our problems Hartmann was conducted by Michael psychiatry, ecology, and economics. The co- are grounded in cultural “stories” which go Harrison and Kevin Casey. founder (with his wife, Louise) of The New back thousands of years. TALKERSMAGAZINE November 2009

TALKERS: So what exactly inspired you to get stars and perhaps a bigger buzz doesn’t mean raised the issue on my show a few times. I’ve back into radio –– specifically talk radio –– after that progressive talk is a failure without its said I think Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage being away from it for so long? share of success stories and pretty talented do brilliant radio and when callers call me about performers with growing audiences. Two, it or challenge me on it I find they’re not listening TH: My wife Louise and I were living in perhaps conservative talk is more geared to to those shows so they don’t know what they’re Vermont and we drove to Michigan in 2001 for the niche aspect of how radio formats are tar- talking about. Thanksgiving. I’m a longtime talk radio junkie geted and rated. “Liberals” are a far more and we were listening to talk radio all the way diverse group, politically, ethnically, economi- TALKERS: So typical listeners are not tuned there. All I got was right wing talk radio. And cally and culturally –– what we term “liberal” in to what professional broadcasters would I thought there’s got to be a market for liberal and “conservative” are not really two sides of listen for... talk…I know I’m not the only liberal in the the same coin. It is more like “conservative” world. So I wrote an op-ed article called, and “non-conservative.” TH: Yeah, it could be that I’m listening with an “Talking Back to Talk Radio,” in which I sug- ear…I’ve been into talk radio since I was a kid, a gested that a progressive radio network should TH: I’d say first and foremost, talk radio tran- teenager. And I’ve always loved radio. and could actually make money and I decided scends categories. But number two, I’ve always I should put my money where my mouth was. said people listen to talk radio for three princi- That editorial was read by Shelly and Anita pal reasons: Number one, they want to be Drobny and they started Air America based on entertained. They want good entertaining radio that. It was the original business plan for Air and they want to feel like they’re part of the America, and Shelly included that in his book, political gestalt. This might be the least impor- The Road to Air America, his autobiography. tant reason, but that’s what makes them stick to That’s why I wrote the op-ed article and that’s a particular show. The second reason is that why we started the show which began shortly they want ammunition to win the watercooler thereafter on a little station in Burlington, wars. They want to be able to argue with their Vermont and grew from there. brother-in-law over Thanksgiving and ideally they’d like to do it in a way so they win the TALKERS: Why didn’t you listen to public argument and there’s not blood on the floor. radio as an alternative to the conservative And that’s one of the things I try to model on stuff? my show because I have conservatives on my show almost every single day. Sometimes sev- TH: Public radio didn’t offer me the red meat eral. The third reason is they want validation of that I really enjoye d. Didn’t have the edge that their world view. They want to know they’re Thom Hartmann sits behind his desk on rock ‘n’ roll did back when I was a DJ. It was not crazy. Oh, somebody else thinks like me so the “virtual” set of Thom TV. too boring, too much pablum. I’d prefer to lis- I must be rational. And I think the difference ten to right-wing talk radio to no talk radio. I between progressive and conservative listeners TALKERS: How would you describe the still enjoy listening to Michael Savage, oddly falls into those simple categories. Progressives state of progressive talk radio at this enough. are looking for their talking points for their moment? Is it growing, is it dying, is it a very watercooler wars just like conservatives are. difficult road? TALKERS: Why Michael Savage? TALKERS: That makes sense, but my ques- TH: I think progressive talk radio is doing TH: Because he does compelling radio. I listen tion was are the talking points more diffused okay . Certainly our show is growing. Randi to him driving home most days. in the progressive world than they are in the Rhodes just came back on the air and her show conservative world? is growing. I think the availability of the fran- TALKERS: So there’s part of you that just chise, that is to say the outlets, has been fairly likes radio for radio’s sake, and part of you TH: I think they are. I think the conservative static. And part of that has been, I think, that plugs into the political message of radio world is a narrower niche. And the thing that because when this experiment began, as it that a specific approach to the medium can most people don’t want to talk about in pro- were, when Clear Channel in particular deliver. Do these interests come from two gressive talk radio is that probably at least half picked up a lot of shows when Air America different parts of your mind? of our listeners are former public radio –– first started, because it was an experiment, NPR –– listeners. Or they’re current NPR lis- they go t put on a lot of the weaker sticks than TH: It could be, or maybe they’re the same. teners. They listen to some NPR shows and their conservative shows, and in a lot of mar- Because I don’t agree with the political message they listen to some progressive talk radio. kets the same salespeople were selling both of all my progressive colleagues and I do agree And that’s not the case, I think, on the conser- stations. But they’re working on commission with some of Michael Savage’s messages. I vative side. They’re listening either to conser- so they’re always going to sell the bigger sta- mean, he was vitriolic about George W. Bush in vative talk radio or they’re not listening, or tion, which was the conservative stick. If you the last year of his administration. they’re listening to music. look at stations like KPOJ in Portland, where you have a dedicated sales force to the pro- TALKERS: I am forever being asked ques- TALKERS: So you don’t think you share gressive station and you have a program tions about the differences between conserva- audience with conservative talk radio to a direc tor who actually programs it and does tive talk radio and progressive talk radio –– significant degree? the liners and the promos and it has a consis- specifically, “Why does conservative talk seem tent sound and treats it like a real radio station to be more successful with bigger stars?” My TH : I doubt it. I enjoy listening to Savage and you’ve got a good signal — we’re on a answers usually take two basic forms: One, because I’m listening to technique. I’m a radio 25,000-watt stick there — you get good ratings just because conservative talk radio has big guy. But I don’t think my listeners would. I’ve and you make money. KPOJ, Portland, is prof- TALKERSMAGAZINE November 2009 itable and has been for four or five years or TALKERS: All right, let’s talk about all the TALKERS: Part of the political debate in however long it’s been on. KPOJ was one of politics of the broadcasting business that’s broadcasting is the issue of localism. Do you the first Air America affiliates. I think one of been bouncing around the news and the feel being a syndicated host that this would the big problems is that in so many markets, shows. What’s your position on the Fairness affect you and all the syndicated progres- because the progressive station was the little Doctrine? What’s your position on activism sives negatively if suddenly all the radio sta- stick that nobody was selling and had a small to get the government to step in and play a tions out there had to have more local pro- audience, they didn’t catch and they didn’t get hand in forcing stations to take liberal and gramming as part of serving the public inter- sold so they weren’t making money and peo- progressive talk shows? est? ple walked away from it and didn’t give it a chance. I mean, I don’t know of any 50 kilo- TH: [Sighs.] I don’t think that’s a good idea at TH: It could. On the other hand, if one of my watt sticks that progressive radio’s been on in all. I think it’s a straw man, frankly. I know affiliates carrying a couple hours of local pro- the last decade. there are people out there advocating it, but to gramming or just local news at the top or bot- paraphrase Dwight Eisenhower’s letter to his tom of the hour makes them a stronger radio TALKERS: One of the things we’ve heard brother about the conservatives in Texas who station, I’d rather have 10% fewer affiliates, that happened in a number of markets was wanted to do away with Social Security: The but all of the affiliates that I have be 20% many market managers said they love the number is small and they are stupid. I am an stronger in their markets because local people programming on their progressive talk sta- advocate of programming in the public inter- want to listen because there’s local stuff and tions and the shows were good but they had est, that radio and television stations and, I they’re serving the local community. So I trouble selling it. Response from local ven- think, cable companies as well, are using pub- think the net of it is that it would benefit me dors in the market was th ey didn’t want to be lic rights of way and public airwaves and have over the long term. associated with liberal programming. Are an obligation to their local communities to be you aware of that and to what do you attrib- programming in ways that are of value to their TALKERS: So, you think if the FCC imposed ute that? community. And I think the primary way that more programming regulations on terrestrial this requireme nt of the old Fairness Doctrine radio at this time when terrestrial radio is TH: I’ve heard that and whenever I hear it I’m — and that was the primary requirement, that facing economic problems from both the hearing it from radio station clusters that have there be programming in the public interest — economy and competition by unregulated their salespeople selling both their conserva- the primary way that requirement was met, media, you think that this change of pro- tive and their liberal stations. I think there are was by programming news. When I worked gramming would actually help terrestrial two things at work here: One, because I don’t at WTIL doing news all those years, they lost radio make money? In other words , do you hear that from independents, like Chicago money on their news operation. They had a believe it would be good for the radio busi- [WCPT]. Chicago just added two repeaters. five-person news team. We were the number- ness from a financial standpoint to serve the They’re growing like weeds. I don’t hear that one station in Lansing, Michigan, but Lansing public interest more than it’s doing now? from Janet Robert, the GM at KTNF in is not a big market. And they did it because it Minneapolis, an independently owned sta- was a locally owned station and they knew TH: I think so. [Laughs.] Actually, having been tion. And you won’t hear that here in that was the cost of keeping their license. in radio when news had to be news, yeah, and Portland. But I do hear that on sales visits to When Reagan blew up the Fairness Doctrine, keep in mind that the TV networks and cable stations where the same sales people who that took a big chunk out of it. But I think the actually does this with public access channels, have been selling Rush Limbaugh for 15 years really big hit was in 1996 with the which is another whole thing, but TV networks and have developed friendships and relation- Telecommunications Act with Clinton because would have to start producing news and you’d ships with the local Republicans and some- it was just after it that CBS, I guess, was the be hearing more about what’s going on around times even go to the Republican Party events first to announce they were moving their news the world and less about balloon boy. I think at to troll for sales leads, are asked to sell pro- division from being a separate stand-alone the end of the day it would better economically, gressive talk radio, because they don’t know division to being a part of their entertainment yeah. where to begin. And they’re not showing up division. And that was when we moved from at the Democratic Party functions, looking for having news in this country to having info- TALKERS: Alright, let’s talk about all the dif- the businesspeople there who are the big tainment. And now that news is a profit cen- ferent ways that you’re getting your show out donors to the Democratic Party. But they’re ter, I don’t think that the public interest is as there. You have a three-hour commercial radio out there. If they weren’t out there, Barak well served as it was when news couldn’t be a show and now you are stretching out into all Obama wouldn’t have been able to out-raise profit center. So I would be entirely in favor of the other media. Tell us about your approach to John McCain in money from all over America. FCC policies or legislation that requires the taking “The Thom Hartmann Radio Show” So my experience has been that if you take a stations program in the p ublic interest. But to brand beyond radio. salesperson who’s been selling conservative say that conservative or liberal programming talk radio for years and have built a network isn’t in the public interest is, I think, disingen- TH: We want to bring in as many complemen- of people who have fondness for that, they’re uous. I think it’s impossible to calibrate, too. I tary communication platforms or media as we going to have a hard time selling progressive think, as I said, Michael Savage going off on can to strengthen our radio show to make it a talk radio if they simply go back to those same George Bush — does that make him a liberal better value for the radio stations that are car- leads. And if the progressive station is a 1k or conservative? Me saying I think we should rying it and to make it more desirable to our stick and the conservative station is a 25k have immigration quotas in this country and radio listeners. That’s our first and primary stick, and the salesperson is working on a that employers of illegal immigrants should goal. There’s a bunch of other stuff we’re commission –– he can sell the $30-a-minute be put in jail — does that make me a liberal or doing but it’s all kind of secondary to that. For stuff or he can sell the $200-a-minute stuff –– if a conservative? I don’t think you can quanti- example, we do a newsletter every day that it were me, I’d be selling the $200-a-minute fy these things. has links in it that point out to all of the news stuff rather than the $30-a-minute stuff. stories that I talk about in the show. It’s no TALKERSMAGAZINE November 2009 small job compiling all that stuff and sending TALKERS: Do you still have a relationship ads. They split the revenue from the ads with it out, but it’s free. And we’ve got about with Air America? the content provider. So we have a channel, 40,000 people who subscribe to it. And we youtube.com/thomhartmann, and people sub- think that it’s important and we’re getting a TH: We do. It’s not a contractual relationship scribe to it. It’s been growing quite nicely. surprising percentage of those who are open- but they carry the show on a DC station on Every day we push the recordings of our show ing it every day and clicking through. What it weekends; they carry our show on their web- out to a fellow in Maryland, who then chops does is add value to the radio show. The TV site and we’re talking with them right now down pieces of the show. So out of the three thing we’re doing with Free Speech TV, I think about expanding that relationship. hours of radio we do every day there might be it adds value to the radio s how. The podcasts 20 or 30 minutes that end up on YouTube. Then that we’re offering are a way of strengthening TALKERS: We understand you use the con- we split the revenue from YouTube with him for the radio program. We’ve got a live chat room sulting services of Greg Moceri. doing that. And it’s just one of those little free- that’s been running virtually since we started. enterprise relationships. TH: When I first started doing talk radio, I TALKERS: And all this is on the website? learned a ton from reading TALKERS maga- TALKERS: Is it generating any kind of sig- zine and Valerie Geller’s books. A few years nificant revenue? TH: Yes, all this is on the website, thomhart- ago, at the TALKERS New Media Seminar, I mann.com and it’s free, anybody can pop in, met Greg Moceri and at last summer’s meet- TH: Not significant, but it’s generating rev- and it’s live 24/7. When we first started the ing I hired him to be my talent coach. Greg enue and we’re hopeful that over time it will radio show, I wanted it to be not just one way, has been brilliant, a no-BS straight-shooter, become significant. me just talking to p eople or me talking to peo- helping me hear the show in several new ways ple and taking calls. I wanted it to be highly and helping us expand its perspective and TALKERS: What is your most successful interactive, so we put up the chat room and reach. He keeps me on point and has been a nontraditional stream of revenue at this we’ve had 50 or 100 people sitting in chat tremendous help. point aside from the old advertising model? throughout the show for years. And when the What do you see as an exciting new place, chat room slows down their conversation or TALKERS: How long have you and Louise from your own experience, of making money their conversation’s on topic, I know I’m doing been together? as a talk show host? something right. And when they start talking about sex or crazy news or whatever, then I TH: November 11 marks our 37th wedding TH: We’re making good money from the sale know that I need to get their attention back, anniversary. of our podcasts and that tells me people are that I’m programming poorly. It’s instanta- willing to pay good money for content the neous feedback. It’s one of the most useful TALKERS: You’re clearly a great team. way they want it, when they want it because tools that I have in doing the show. the podcasts are commercial free and they can TH: I think so. She deserves a lot of the credit. listen to them whenever they want. I mean, TALKERS: When you say “we,” who is You know, I’m the trained monkey on the radio; this is the stuff, Michael, you were talking “we?” Who is your organization? Break it she’s the businessperson here. She’s ended up about years ago, when you were telling people down for us. running most of the businesses we’ve started. to do this. Our podcast revenue right now is She’s a very, very skillful administrator and larger than our ad revenue was two years ago. TH: Louise and I started the show and we co- competent marketer. own the company, Mythical Research, Inc., TALKERS: That i s very exciting! Are the that is the show. We have a woman named TALKERS: So at this point what’s your rela- podcasts just basically the shows that have Shawn Taylor, who used to be Lars Larson’s tionship with KPOJ in Portland? already aired or do you create special materi- producer, who’s our executive producer and al that is exclusive to the podcast? books our guests and helps us hatch the show TH: I do the last half hour of the morning every day. Jacob Dean is the associate produc- show. I did the morning show by myself for TH: So far it’s just the three-hour show, er, he runs the board and does all the audio two years, and a three-hour show, and then stripped of the spots. Right now we have cre- and technical stuff. Michael Dulin is our TV followed that with a three-hour national show ated a half-hour TV show, which is largely put director and he runs our video contraptions and then when Air America picked up the together from pieces of the radio show and then and sends that stuff off to Free Speech TV. national show, it just became impractical. So we throw in a newscast. “Throw in” is probably And that’s it right here in Portland. We’re a KPOJ hired Carl Wilson and Christine the wrong phrase because we think it through small, streamlined crew. Sue Nethercott is our Alexander, and they do the morning show and pretty carefully. But we put in a newscast and newsletter editor, chat room and message it’s the “Carl and Christine Show” for three put in segues and an open and close and we call board manager and Nigel Peacock is our web- hours, and I come in in the last half hour as a it “The Big Picture” and it goes on Free Speech master. Both Sue and Nigel are in London. guest on that show and then that segues into TV after Al Jazeera News at 9:30 pm ET, 6:30 We have an affiliate in the UK as well as one in my national show. It’s a good thing for KPOJ, pm PT. And we’re trying to figure out how Ghana, Africa. Ron Hartenbaum of WYD it’s a good thing for me. I get a small check we’re going to offer that as a podcast, whether Media Management is our agent and business from Clear Channel for that. it’s going to be audio or video or both and how manager. Commercial affiliate sales/relations and where we’re going to sell it. and advertising sales are handled by Dial TALKERS: Tell us about your YouTube chan- Global. Our non-profit public radio and TV nel. TALKERS: How is the radi o show turned affiliate relations are handled by David into a TV show? Pakman and Pacifica Network. Our TV net- TH: YouTube will enter into a commercial rela- work affiliate is Free Speech TV tionship with anybody who can convince them TH: Well we started about a year and a half ago, (www.freespeech.org) which is carried on they can provide them with consistent and orig- sort of like Rush Limbaugh does, by just tossing Dish Network nationwide. inal content on which YouTube can sell Google a camera in the studio. And we started noticing TALKERSMAGAZINE November 2009 real steady increases in our streaming bill, more TALKERS: It’s like a trailer. we don’t have a commercial affiliate with the and more people watching it and thought this is understanding that if a commercial affiliate comes interesting. I didn’t want to go off and just do a TH: Yeah. And it’s a nice product. And I’m along we have the option to give them the show. separate TV show –– like Rachel Maddow did a committed to the Free Speech TV folks and They have the same contract that all of our sta- radio show and then she did a TV show and want to make it work as a show for them. But tions have, cancelable within 90 days by either dropped the radio show. I didn’t want to go I think it’s also a hell of a promotion for the party. At some point down the road we intend to that route because I’m really a radio guy, not a three-hour radio show. monetize this. We’ve got two minutes at the top TV guy. I just love radio. So we tried to figure of the hour for underwriting announcements. out, can we can turn this radio show into a TV TALKERS: Tell us now about your relation- And one of those minutes we’re claiming and one show? The first step was turning the commer- ship with Pacifica. Here we have you pio- we’re giving to the stations. They announce their cial radio show into a commercial and a non- neering a new paradigm. And that is a com- underwriters in the last minute and the minute commercial radio show, which was our relation- mercial radio show that is also on public before that we could announce underwriters. ship with Pacifica. Then once we had a com- radio. They could be our commercial sponsors but we mercial and non-commercial radio show, Free haven’t gotten around to doing this but we’re cut- Speech TV, which is non-commercial, showed TH: Right. That came out of my realization ting them and intend to run them in the next few an interest in carrying our radio show on TV. that probably half of our listeners were also weeks or month. So that we can go to an adver- The guy who established that model is, quite NPR listeners or former NPR listeners and tiser and say if you buy “The Thom Hartmann frankly, Don Imus. So we got some video that there are a lot of people listening to FM, Show” you get “x” AQH on commercial stations equipment and we were doing production ele- 80% of all listeners are on the FM dial. You’ve across the stations, plus you’ll get “y” in noncom- ments and bringing people in by Skype. For written a lot about this in TALKERS. And most mercial stations where you’ll get a mention rather example, today I had Stewart Brand on live in of the stations I’m on are on the AM dial. than a full ad, but it’s adding value to the adver- the studio –– the guy who created the Whole We’ve got one FM affiliate in Madison, tisers so we see that as a good thing. And again, Earth Catalog — he’s got a new book out now. Wisconsin that’s doing well, but I think most it’s building the brand. Our main goal is to get the We’re in the second week of the Free Speech TV of our other commercial affiliates are on the brand out there and help it be successful. deal, working out the bugs. It’s amazing. I’m AM dial. So we bought a second server, getting as many calls now from the live TV NextGen Box, and it runs as a slave t o the mas- TALKERS: How’s your book writing and show, they just carried the third hour of our ter server so when we go into a commercial publishing going? show live on TV, on Dish Network. break, instead of feeding commercials out to the satellite, it’s feeding things like Jim TH: It’s going well. Threshold is doing well, TALKERS: Are you afraid that this could be Hightower’s commentary and Labor Radio that’s the last book out by Viking/Penguin, competition for future affiliates on radio if News and Earth and Sky’s three-minute sci- and my book about equal protection regarding suddenly these other media grow and com- ence report and me reading pieces from my the Supreme Court’s 1886 decision to make pete against potential affiliates in markets books or commenting on the news and we do corporations into people became suddenly rel- where you’re not on yet? a three-minute newscast every day too, which evant. It’s like a 10-year old book, it became is available to our commercial as well as our suddenly incredibly relevant with the Citizens TH: I doubt it. I think, if anything, what it will noncommercial stations. We offer a three- United vs Federal Election Commission case, so do is help the radio franchise. The reason why, minute version and a one-minute version and that’s being brought out in second edition. I’ve being that the way people watch TV and the it goes up on our website every day before been working 10-hour days on the weekends way people listen to radio are very different. noon and Sirius XM is using them commercial- rewriting that, bringing it up to date for anoth- People listen to the radio while they’re doing ly. But in creating this non-commercial version er publisher. That and magazine articles and things, while they’re driving in the car, cleaning we wanted to reach out to the non-commercial our daily blog and articles I try to do for the house, doing things. People watch TV and stations who were looking for programming Huffington Post and for Common Dreams and they do absolutely nothing else. They just sit that was a little more interesting than a lot of other websites, again, always point back to the and they watch the TV. We’re getting as many the boring stuff that’s on some non-commercial radio show. Always try to build equity for the calls now from listeners of our Free Speech TV stations. There’s some good stuff that’s on radio show. Our goal is to make this as strong as we get from our largest radio affiliates, noncommercial stations as well but I think a product as possible for the radio stations that which surprises me, frankly. Pleasantly sur- some of it’s a snoozer. We’ve gotten a very are carrying it and as profitable as possible. prises me. They’re literally from all over. I got positive response and we’ve picked up several a call today from a guy in a little town I’d never dozen affiliates just in the last couple of heard of in East Mississippi. And he was months. watching on Free Speech TV. And I got a call from Carbondale, Illinois listening to us on Free TALKERS: Does money change hands in Speech TV. So I think what will happen over your deal with Pacifica? In the world of pub- time, because Dish Network is in 20 or 30 mil- lic radio, stations that want to carry a show lion households in the United States, is that such as, say, “Fresh Air,” they pay a lot of when people are exposed to the radio show on money. It’s quite an expensive proposition TV and they know that it’s a radio show on TV carrying NPR and PRI programming. Are you with good television production values, but it’s making the big bucks that NPR and PRI pro- a radio show, just like with the Imus Show, if grams are? they want more of it, they want all three hours of it, or they want to hear it in a more conven- TH: In my dreams. We’re offering this show for ient fashion...they’ll go to the radio. free to those stations and only in markets where