Issue 203 November 2009 The TALKERS magazine interview Progressive multimedia entrepreneur Thom Hartmann hen the subject of progressive England Salem Children's Village (1978) and talk radio comes up and indus- The Hunter School (1997), he has led national W try professionals and observers innovations in the areas of residential treat- alike question its viability, the name Thom ment for abused children and private/public His most recent books are Screwed: The Hartmann is invariably cited as a prime education for learning-disabled children. Undeclared War Against the Middle Class, The example of its successes and, even more Hartmann is the four-time Project Censored Edison Gene, The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight, importantly, its potential for success. He is Award-winning, New York Times best-selling Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate listed on TALKERS magazine's 2009 Heavy author with 19 books currently in print in more Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights, We Hundred as the 10th Most Important Radio than a dozen languages on five continents. The People: A Call to Take Back America, and Talk Show Host in America and in the trade He is the former executive director of a resi- What Would Jefferson Do? journal’s Top Talk Audiences ranking slot at dential treatment program for emotionally dis- He’s also contributed to the American #9 with a weekly cume of more than 2 million turbed and abused children, and has helped set economy: In the business world he has found- listeners. His daily radio show, “The Thom up hospitals, famine-relief programs, schools, ed seven corporations over the past 30 years, Hartmann Program,” which airs live from and refugee centers in India, Uganda, Australia, five of which he has sold and are still thriving. 12:00 noon to 3:00 pm ET, is a budding Colombia, Russia and the United States through These include a magazine and an advertising cross-platform phenomenon heard not only the German-based Salem International pro- agency. on an impressive affiliate roster of more than gram. Formerly rostered with the State of In his fir st radio career, Hartmann worked 50 commercial news/talk stations across the Vermont as a psychotherapist, founder of The from 1968 to 1978 as a DJ, reporter, news nation including Los Angeles, Chicago, Michigan Healing Arts Center, and licensed as anchor, and program director for a variety of Miami, Dallas, San Francisco, Atlanta, Detroit, an NLP Trainer by Richard Bandler (who wrote commercial radio stations in Michigan. S eattle, Portland, Pittsburgh and Memphis, the foreword to one of Thom’s books), he Coming back behind the microphone, but on an array of other platforms including was the originator of the revolutionary Hartmann began in Spring 2002 a “liberal” Sirius XM Satellite Radio, public broadcast- “Hunter/Farmer Hypothesis” to understand talk radio show on a small station in Vermont ing’s Pacifica Radio, Free Speech TV and his the psychiatric condition known as Attention which led to a daily morning show at KPOJ in own YouTube channel. Deficit Hyperactive Disorder (ADHD). A Portland, Oregon and the independent launch Thom Hartmann is a modern renaissance guest faculty member at Goddard College of his nationally syndicated program distrib- man whose radio career can be broken down in Vermont, he also synthesized the uted by the Jones Satellite Network. into two chapters separated by several “Younger/Older Culture model” for describing The father of three grown children, he lives decades of colorful projects and adventures the underpinnings –– and possible solutions –– in Portland, Oregon with his wife Louise. The that include being an internationally known to the world’s ecological and socio-political TALKERS magazine interview with Thom speaker as well as an innovator in the fields of crises, suggesting that many of our problems Hartmann was conducted by Michael psychiatry, ecology, and economics. The co- are grounded in cultural “stories” which go Harrison and Kevin Casey. founder (with his wife, Louise) of The New back thousands of years. TALKERSMAGAZINE November 2009 TALKERS: So what exactly inspired you to get stars and perhaps a bigger buzz doesn’t mean raised the issue on my show a few times. I’ve back into radio –– specifically talk radio –– after that progressive talk is a failure without its said I think Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage being away from it for so long? share of success stories and pretty talented do brilliant radio and when callers call me about performers with growing audiences. Two, it or challenge me on it I find they’re not listening TH: My wife Louise and I were living in perhaps conservative talk is more geared to to those shows so they don’t know what they’re Vermont and we drove to Michigan in 2001 for the niche aspect of how radio formats are tar- talking about. Thanksgiving. I’m a longtime talk radio junkie geted and rated. “Liberals” are a far more and we were listening to talk radio all the way diverse group, politically, ethnically, economi- TALKERS: So typical listeners are not tuned there. All I got was right wing talk radio. And cally and culturally –– what we term “liberal” in to what professional broadcasters would I thought there’s got to be a market for liberal and “conservative” are not really two sides of listen for... talk…I know I’m not the only liberal in the the same coin. It is more like “conservative” world. So I wrote an op-ed article called, and “non-conservative.” TH: Yeah, it could be that I’m listening with an “Talking Back to Talk Radio,” in which I sug- ear…I’ve been into talk radio since I was a kid, a gested that a progressive radio network should TH: I’d say first and foremost, talk radio tran- teenager. And I’ve always loved radio. and could actually make money and I decided scends categories. But number two, I’ve always I should put my money where my mouth was. said people listen to talk radio for three princi- That editorial was read by Shelly and Anita pal reasons: Number one, they want to be Drobny and they started Air America based on entertained. They want good entertaining radio that. It was the original business plan for Air and they want to feel like they’re part of the America, and Shelly included that in his book, political gestalt. This might be the least impor- The Road to Air America, his autobiography. tant reason, but that’s what makes them stick to That’s why I wrote the op-ed article and that’s a particular show. The second reason is that why we started the show which began shortly they want ammunition to win the watercooler thereafter on a little station in Burlington, wars. They want to be able to argue with their Vermont and grew from there. brother-in-law over Thanksgiving and ideally they’d like to do it in a way so they win the TALKERS: Why didn’t you listen to public argument and there’s not blood on the floor. radio as an alternative to the conservative And that’s one of the things I try to model on stuff? my show because I have conservatives on my show almost every single day. Sometimes sev- TH: Public radio didn’t offer me the red meat eral. The third reason is they want validation of that I really enjoye d. Didn’t have the edge that their world view. They want to know they’re Thom Hartmann sits behind his desk on rock ‘n’ roll did back when I was a DJ. It was not crazy. Oh, somebody else thinks like me so the “virtual” set of Thom TV. too boring, too much pablum. I’d prefer to lis- I must be rational. And I think the difference ten to right-wing talk radio to no talk radio. I between progressive and conservative listeners TALKERS: How would you describe the still enjoy listening to Michael Savage, oddly falls into those simple categories. Progressives state of progressive talk radio at this enough. are looking for their talking points for their moment? Is it growing, is it dying, is it a very watercooler wars just like conservatives are. difficult road? TALKERS: Why Michael Savage? TALKERS: That makes sense, but my ques- TH: I think progressive talk radio is doing TH: Because he does compelling radio. I listen tion was are the talking points more diffused okay . Certainly our show is growing. Randi to him driving home most days. in the progressive world than they are in the Rhodes just came back on the air and her show conservative world? is growing. I think the availability of the fran- TALKERS: So there’s part of you that just chise, that is to say the outlets, has been fairly likes radio for radio’s sake, and part of you TH: I think they are. I think the conservative static. And part of that has been, I think, that plugs into the political message of radio world is a narrower niche. And the thing that because when this experiment began, as it that a specific approach to the medium can most people don’t want to talk about in pro- were, when Clear Channel in particular deliver. Do these interests come from two gressive talk radio is that probably at least half picked up a lot of shows when Air America different parts of your mind? of our listeners are former public radio –– first started, because it was an experiment, NPR –– listen ers.