Vol. 799 Tuesday No. 340 3 September 2019

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Death of a Member: Lord Bell ...... 909 Retirements of Members...... 909 Questions Sterling ...... 909 Prosecutions and Sentencing ...... 912 Queen’s Speech ...... 914 Prorogation Recall...... 917 Hong Kong Private Notice Question ...... 919 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill Report...... 926 Banking: Standards and Reform Question for Short Debate...... 943 G7 Statement...... 960 No-deal Update Statement...... 974 Education Funding Statement ...... 988 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2019-09-03

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2019, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 909 Oaths and Affirmations [3 SEPTEMBER 2019] Sterling 910

House of Lords recent actions—yes, actions not words—had reduced the level of UK productivity by 2% to 5% and caused Tuesday 3 September 2019 many British companies to significantly cut investments plans? With the decline in the value of sterling, there 2.30 pm has been a sharp drop in factory output. What will the Government do to put this right? Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham. The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Lord Oaths and Affirmations mentioned a number of issues, one of which was factory output. I remind him that manufacturing now 2.35 pm accounts for almost half of total UK exports—49% in 2017, with a value of just over £300 million. The Baroness Ashton of Upholland took the oath, and signed manufacturing sector has seen productivity increase an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. over three times faster than the UK economy as a whole over the past 10 years. I cannot add anything more relating to sterling but I reiterate that we have Death of a Member: Lord Bell provided over half a trillion pounds in capital investment. Announcement We are cutting taxes to support business investment, we have improved access to finance through the British 2.37 pm Business Bank, and we have improved skills through The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, I regret investment in apprenticeships and the introduction of to inform the House of the death of the noble Lord, T-levels. Lord Bell, on 25 August. On behalf of the House, I extend our condolences to the noble Lord’s family and Lord Fox (LD): My Lords, here is another statistic: friends. the ONS says that productivity fell 0.6% between April and June. Over the summer Andy Haldane, who Retirements of Members is not only the chief economist of the Bank of England Announcement but the chair of the Government’s Industrial Strategy Council, gave an important speech on the UK’s 2.37 pm productivity problem. Its subtitle was “Hub No Spokes”. If the Minister had been here I would have asked him The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, I should if he had read the speech; perhaps his stand-in can like to notify the House of the retirements, with effect pass that question on. More importantly, having read from 26 July, of the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor of that speech, what are the Government going to do to Pulham Market, and with effect from 2 September, of redress the balance and respond to the important the noble Lord, Lord Palumbo, pursuant to Section 1 points that Haldane makes? of the House of Lords Reform Act 2014. On behalf of the House, I should like to thank the noble Lords for their very much-valued service to the House. The Earl of Courtown: No, my Lords, I have not read Mr Haldane’s speech, but I will pass it on to my colleagues in the department. However,there is something Sterling that the noble Lord should acknowledge regarding the Question ONS statistics on productivity: he will be aware that the Bean review reported in March 2016, that the 2.38 pm Government supported its recommendations, and that Asked by Lord Haskel the ONS has so far made good progress in acting on them, to ensure that we have proper productivity To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action figures available for our examination. they plan to take to boost investment and productivity and to stop any decline in the value of sterling. Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, does The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, we have my noble friend agree that in the digital age and in a worked hard to build a stronger, fairer economy, dealing predominantly service economy, as the UK is, it is with the deficit, helping people into work and cutting increasingly hard to measure accurately the notion of taxes for individuals, families and businesses. We have productivity? Does he therefore agree that all these created the £37 billion national productivity investment discussions and comments need to be treated with fund and have provided £600 billion in capital investment, great caution and balance? including in infrastructure and skills. On sterling, it is important to note that the UK does not have an The Earl of Courtown: My noble friend is quite exchange rate target. The price of sterling is set by the right, as always. He mentioned the digital age that we market. are in, and of course noble Lords will remember that we have the £400 million digital infrastructure fund, Lord Haskel (Lab): Minister, how can we believe which is unlocking £1 billion for full-fibre broadband your words about growing the economy when last to connect more homes so that they can act upon this week the Bank of England told us that the Government’s digital age. 911 Sterling [LORDS] Prosecutions and Sentencing 912

Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab): My Lords, does the The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, my noble friend noble Earl appreciate that his answer to my noble makes some interesting points. He will be fully aware friend clashes with reality? With the pound at a low of how the labour market is responding to the policies level you would expect our manufacturers and exporters of Her Majesty’s Government, with 3.8 million more to be making considerable progress, but informed in work, youth unemployment falling by 46% and over opinion—as opposed to that from the Government 1 million fewer workless households since 2010. Front Bench—in the manufacturing industry says that investment in that industry is at its lowest level since Lord Bilimoria (CB): My Lords, will the Minister the slump and great crisis of 2008. How do his previous acknowledge that, although there has been a productivity answers square with the brutal facts? challenge in this country, the top 10% of our companies are world class, with world-class productivity? The The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Lord challenge is to invest more in education, R&D and will be perfectly well aware that our economy has innovation. What is the progress in the industrial changed over the years.As I said earlier,the manufacturing strategy towards increasing R&D and innovation sector has seen productivity increase by over three expenditure from around 1% of GDP to 2.8%, as in times faster than the UK economy as a whole over the the United States and Germany, let alone Israel’s rate past 10 years. As noble Lords will be aware, what is of 4%? becoming more and more important is the service economy, our advances in the digital age and the The Earl of Courtown: As noble Lords are aware, technology that we are producing. That is what is the whole point of the industrial strategy is to boost really important and it is how the economy will grow productivity and the earning power of people throughout further. the UK, as well as encouraging investment in the technologies of the future. The centrepiece of our Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con): My Lords, does the approach is increased public investment in infrastructure Minister agree that productivity, as measured by output and R&D through the national productivity investment per hour, is largely inappropriate for huge chunks of fund. We have increased its total size to £37 billion, the British economy, particularly services? More but the noble Lord makes a good point. importantly, productivity is affected by employment. In a period of full employment, productivity is bound Lord Soley (Lab): Can the Minister confirm that he to go down as the least productive people are employed. understands that the current crisis is having, That has happened because this Government have a and will continue to have, a profound effect on investment higher rate of employment, whereas Labour Governments in this country? This will not end quickly, deal or no have always left office with a higher rate of unemployment deal, because the problem continues. That is what we than when they came into power. need to address if we are to take investment seriously in the future. The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, my noble friend makes a good point. He talked about the link between The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Lord productivity and employment, which throws up different makes an important point as we move towards 31 October. statistics. That is why it is so important that the review We recognise that there has been some exchange rate of the ONS comes forward with a more accurate way volatility. This is not unusual as we move to our new to measure productivity. relationship with the EU. It is important to remember that the UK’s macroeconomic framework is based on an inflation target, not an exchange rate target. It is Lord Tomlinson (Lab): Can the Minister, or his for the independent Monetary Policy Committee to department, justify the statement he has made twice set monetary policy to meet that target. that manufacturing productivity is rising three times faster than in the economy as a whole? Can he place a copy of the calculations on which that statement is Prosecutions and Sentencing based in the Library, so that we can all see whether it is Question fact or fiction? 2.48 pm The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, I do not believe Asked by Baroness Neville-Rolfe in uttering fiction from the Dispatch Box. I do not accept the noble Lord’s comment, but I will take it To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps back to the department and ask for clarification on they plan to take to support the Crown Prosecution that figure. Service in prosecuting, and the courts in sentencing, those involved in gang-related offences,illegal migration Lord Flight (Con): My Lords, are the Government and petty offences. aware of the extent to which increased regulation is causing a fall in productivity, particularly in the financial The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of services sector? The numbers of people working in Elie) (Con): My Lords,in 2018, the Government published regulation are not producing anything positive and the a serious violence strategy to take action to address effect is estimated to be as much as 10% over the serious violence. Our strategy places a new emphasis last decade. on early intervention and sets out a multiagency approach. 913 Prosecutions and Sentencing [3 SEPTEMBER 2019] Queen’s Speech 914

The CPS is developing new guidance about gang Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful culture and gang offending, which will summarise the to the Minister for his answer. Does he agree that it is relevant principles in case law to be applied when time to invest more in the justice system as a whole? making charging decisions in any gang-related offence. Might he also agree that when Governments seek to encourage respect for the law in the country, they Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con): My Lords, over the should begin by respecting the law themselves? summer, I was very pleased to hear of the Home Secretary’s new approach and of the extra funding for Lord Keen of Elie: My Lords, this Government do 20,000 police officers. Indeed, that takes me back to respect the law.In addition, this Government understand the time when my noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne, the law and the distinctions that lie between matters of an esteemed predecessor, took a number of determined politics and matters of law. In some areas that is not steps and succeeded in getting crime down across the properly understood. Of course, there is always room board. Does my noble and learned friend agree that for further investment in the justice system, but the the vital way to support the police, who need to be Government face an issue of priorities. The question helped, is to ensure that criminals receive appropriate of further investment must be balanced by other demands sentences from the courts, that they serve those sentences, on government. and that new, secure prisons are built, so that the problems we have in these various areas are tackled? The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I share with many others gratitude for what the Government Lord Keen of Elie: My Lords, clearly, sentencing are doing to have an integrated approach to serious decisions are a matter for the independent judiciary, violence and youth violence in particular, and I welcome which is of course under a duty to follow any relevant having more police because we need to have safer guidelines produced by the independent Sentencing streets. But by the time we get to prosecuting and Council. The council produces guidelines specific to sentencing it is all too late. Very often people have particular offences or groups of offences. I entirely been left injured and dead. How much are we investing acknowledge the points my noble friend Lady Neville- way before that, particularly at school level? Will the Rolfe makes about the need to complement the increase noble and learned Lord say a little more about what in policing by ensuring that we have adequate provision support is being given to our schools? In particular, in the judiciary and the prison establishment. when, for example, children are found with knives, does this trigger a safeguarding response so that we Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab): My Lords, is there are trying to deal with the causes, rather than just the not a wider question about the crisis generally in the results? practice of criminal law, from whom many in the CPS are recruited, because of continuing underpayment Lord Keen of Elie: My Lords, the right reverend for work done? Now that austerity is said to be over, Prelate makes a very good point. In July this year the will the Government advocate for more resources to Government announced their intention to bring forward prosecutors and defenders? legislation when parliamentary time allows for a new legal duty on public bodies to prevent and tackle Lord Keen of Elie: My Lords, we are of course serious violence—essentially what is referred to as a concerned to ensure that the criminal justice system is public health duty—that will cover the police, local adequately funded. We do not consider that we are in councils, local health bodies, education, and youth the midst of a crisis so far as that is concerned. Indeed, offending services. Clearly, intervention at an early we engage with both the CPS and counsel and solicitors stage is the preferred approach. engaged in criminal defence work to ensure that they are properly resourced. Lord Watts (Lab): My Lords, is the increase in crime due to the Government cutting the number of Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, police officers on our streets and massively cutting given the Prime Minister’s recent pronouncements on local government services that looked after young tackling crime more generally, are the Government people? Do we not have to reverse those cuts, and abandoning previous policy on rehabilitation—of using should not the Government apologise for them? prison less rather than more, reducing short sentences and increasing release on licence and home detention Lord Keen of Elie: My Lords, the variation in crime curfews? Are we moving towards a policy of harsher has no single or simple explanation. It is a complex sentences based on the frankly false notion that prison issue, based on social and attitude factors, education works and, if so, on what evidence, particularly given and intervention. It is not possible to single out one the more liberal, evidenced-based policies on matter that would reduce or increase crime. imprisonment and rehabilitation pursued by David Gauke, and even as Queen’s Speech Justice Secretaries, and Rory Stewart and the present Question Justice Secretary as Prisons Ministers? 2.54 pm Lord Keen of Elie: My Lords, the Government recognise that prison alone is not the answer to crime. Asked by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Prison must go hand in hand with rehabilitation and Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment when they expect our policies are always pointed in that direction. to announce a date for the next Queen’s Speech. 915 Queen’s Speech [LORDS] Queen’s Speech 916

Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, the Government have Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, I join the noble announced that the next Queen’s Speech will be on Baroness in paying tribute to the dedication, skill and 14 October. good humour of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, and to his support for the traditions of Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op): It was a parliamentary democracy. prescient Question, was it not? Will the noble Earl, who is known for his integrity Noble Lords: Hear, hear. and honesty, confirm that Parliament normally goes into recess for party conferences, so that committees Lord Newby: Does not the Minister, like me, find it can sit and Questions can be tabled, and that Prorogation extraordinary that none of his Front-Bench colleagues, is normally prior to a Queen’s Speech and usually less many if not most of whom shared the view of the than a week? So a Prorogation of five weeks, with no noble Lord, Lord Young, has shown the same degree opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny of the Executive, of principle? is both unprecedented and unconstitutional. Earl Howe: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Young, Earl Howe: My Lords, I am a little surprised by the to whom I too pay tribute for his exemplary service to position taken by the noble Lord, in view of his this House and to the Government, has made clear previous call for a new Session. He was quite insistent that he has special personal reasons for taking the on that point earlier in the year. However,it is impossible action that he has taken, and that he would not expect for me to be unaware that there are differences of view any of his colleagues to follow his example. I do not on these matters, and I have no desire to raise the believe that I am misrepresenting him. temperature of the water in any way. However, the number of sitting days lost as a result of the Prorogation Baroness Hayman (CB): My Lords, the noble Earl is only a handful. The important question surely is said that we were losing only a few sitting days. From whether Parliament will have sufficient time after that, should I conclude that the scheduled sitting days 14 October to express its view on a revised Brexit deal, next week will actually take place? May I also ask him if we achieve one, or on the preparations for no deal if to reflect on the fact that sitting days are, as the noble we do not—and the Government are absolutely clear Lord, Lord Foulkes, said, not the same as days on that sufficient time is available. which Parliament is in session, when committees can sit and Parliament can be recalled? I am sure that I am Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): I think the noble not alone in remembering occasions when Parliament Earl will recognise that that view is not widely shared. has sat during party conference season. Before I respond, perhaps I may pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for his work. We Earl Howe: My Lords, if the noble Baroness will will miss his dignity,wit and humour at the Dispatch Box. allow, I think it is appropriate for me to leave it to my noble friend the Chief Whip to answer questions on the order of business this week and next. He will be Noble Lords: Hear, hear. making a business Statement immediately after Questions and it is right that we turn our attention to those Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, we all matters at that point. understand that any Prime Minister, particularly one who has been selected by less than 1% of the population Lord Tyler (LD): My Lords, the noble Earl implied during a crisis, would want a new Queen’s Speech to that a recess is comparable to Prorogation. Will he set out the objectives and the tone of his Government. now acknowledge that this is an absurd pretence from But if this shutdown—which, as the noble Lord, No. 10, because it is not the same thing? For example, Lord Foulkes said, is what it is—starts next Monday, the length of a recess can be quite different in the two it will last for five long weeks. Five days would have Houses. Your Lordships’ House can sit and continue been better. So we have a Secretary of State who will its work even if the Commons is in recess; that is not not confirm that he will obey the law, and a Prime the case with Prorogation. Please will he now acknowledge Minister whose first Question Time will be his only that the ignorance and disdain of the current occupants one in three months. We hear that MPs—even Cabinet of No. 10, as far as parliamentary matters are concerned, Ministers—face being sacked if they do not agree with is a matter of really serious concern to your Lordships’ the Prime Minister. Why is this Prime Minister so House? frightened of scrutiny? Earl Howe: Let me apologise to the House—I did Earl Howe: My Lords, he is not. Let me be clear. not mean to imply that there was an equivalence My right honourable friend the Prime Minister believes between a recess and a Prorogation. The noble Lord is strongly that Parliament must have time to consider absolutely right that they are two distinct things. The further the UK’s withdrawal from the , technical position is that once Parliament has been and to hold the Government to account. Parliament prorogued, it cannot be recalled. A recall of Parliament will return in good time before the , can happen only when Parliament is in Recess or and it will be sitting for two and a half weeks before adjourned—so to that extent the noble Lord makes a exit day, which will allow ample time for debate in very good point. My point was slightly different, as I both Houses. hope he will appreciate. 917 Queen’s Speech [3 SEPTEMBER 2019] Prorogation Recall 918

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, does Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): Does the Minister the noble Earl accept that the unwritten constitution agree with the following statement in the Commons that we have depends on Prime Ministers actually Library briefing: doing the right thing? Given the current Prime Minister, “Long proro