with/avec ENTRETIEN Q&A The NDP and the balance of power

NDP leader Jack Layton now has the balance of power in the minority House. How comfortable is his coalition of convenience with the Conservatives? What is he looking for, on climate change and in the March 19 budget, as the price for his support? In his Parliament Hill office last month, Layton discussed these and other issues with Policy Options Editor L. Ian MacDonald.

Le chef du NPD détient désormais la balance du pouvoir au sein d’une Chambre minoritaire. Est-il heureux de la coalition utilitaire qu’il a formée avec les conservateurs ? À quel prix fixe-t-il ce soutien par rapport aux changements climatiques et au budget du 19 mars ? Dans son bureau du Parlement, Jack Layton s’est entretenu de ces enjeux et de quelques autres avec le rédacteur en chef d’Options politiques L. Ian MacDonald.

POLICY OPTIONS: Mr. Layton, thank on second reading. [It] could turn out to PO: In 1985-87, the pact between you for doing this. One day in January be a very interesting tool in a minority David Peterson and ? you woke up and you had the balance of Parliament that might — if this one JACK LAYTON: I have spoken to power. How do you feel about that? works, and that is a big “if” — serve to the people who were directly involved JACK LAYTON: Well, of course create a bit of a precedent, a little bit in that...And so now we have looked at other parties have had the balance up more like you would find in European how the NDP in those contexts used until now and in fact we probably had parliaments from time to time. You its seats to try to influence affairs, and it earlier. The thing about the balance know, an actual recognition that when pick examples. of power is that the government has to you have minority parliaments, different PO: If you look at the be willing to enter into some kind of a constellations of parties are going to Pearson/Douglas period, for example, collaborative effort. I was optimistic at work together producing some results. you have the NDP proposing a Canadian first, as I said in my book. I had a cou- PO: So how do you play this card flag, the Canada Pension Plan and the ple of chapters about the last few years without overplaying it, be perceived as Pension Plan, all the things that up here, and two governments, and being responsible without sort of put- came out of what has been regarded as some of our ideas made it into the ting the government’s back to the wall, the most productive period in Parliament Speech from the Throne, verbatim. or putting their feet to the fire without since the end of the Second World War. However, the meetings stopped about putting a knife to their throat? JACK LAYTON: The 1972-74 period a week before the Speech from the JACK LAYTON: Well, I think it is a wasn’t too bad, either: the National Throne, and they didn’t happen again. question of sticking to concrete pro- Housing Program, and a whole series PO: On the special committee on posals that are actually reasonable, of other things. Now that was a real the clean air bill, it looked like you workable. working relationship, with weekly dis- were cutting a deal right on the floor PO: The minority Houses of 1963 cussions. It was a recognition of the of the House of Commons. to 1968, and 1972 to 1974, were in dif- reality of a minority House. Both with JACK LAYTON: There were meetings ferent times, but is there something and with requested but not granted for many from the Tommy Douglas and David it is very different. months. And so now has it really Lewis periods that informs this debate PO: How do you find Mr. Harper as changed? I think it is too early to say. in terms of the NDP’s agenda and get- a listener compared to Mr. Martin? There were a couple of meetings but ting results out of a minority House? JACK LAYTON: I haven’t had whether that is going to result in a signif- JACK LAYTON: I am quite well enough conversations with Mr. Harper icant shift...I would say that there is a versed in that. I’m an old political sci- yet to know. I have found that Mr. possibility with the mere acceptance of entist and we studied it very carefully, Harper gets right to the point, he says the tool we proposed, which was the spe- and I have also looked at how the what is on his mind, he recognizes that cial legislative committee with no vote accord in functioned. we have very, very different perspectives,

POLICY OPTIONS 5 MARCH 2007 Jack Layton ENTRETIEN and that sometimes the possibility of not holding my breath. Otherwise want to call it, clearly annoys the some action could produce some results. there are other scenarios, an opposition Liberals big time? To the extent that it His Senate reform agenda, we don’t party bill could emerge, or a bill where succeeds, it gives you time to marginal- agree with that. We wanted proportional the government is a part of the support ize Elizabeth May and the Greens on representation to be advanced. for it, with some combination; we real- the left, to be able to say, Well, you PO: Speaking of the special com- ly don’t know how it is going to play don’t need her around here, because mittee on climate change, although it is out, because there are too many possi- look, we are delivering results for you. early days here, can you see the cutting bilities. They will probably come to the JACK LAYTON: I would say the same edge of the deal somewhere? For exam- House and there would be real discus- about the Liberals. In municipal politics ple, moving the goal posts back from sions at the report stage and further you have every kind of combination and Kyoto a few years, with short-term tar- adjustments to see how far we can go it is all about trying to manoeuvre things gets in exchange for the government with it. That would be very exciting. into position to get some positive results. accepting your long-term target for 80 PO: Now on the budget, what are PO: People who know you well percent emission reductions by 2050? you looking for here? I mean the deal say, Jack comes from a background, a JACK LAYTON: Well, no. Kyoto is a makers for you would probably culture, City Hall, where you complex document that provides include fairness to families — a fair- started as one guy with a piece of paper many tools, also provides penalties, ness to families package as opposed to, and an idea, and you end up creating a and honouring the obligations to say, corporate income tax cuts. consensus all across the city. So is that Kyoto would mean that you are what you bring to this town, going to do as much as you can Kyoto is a complex document that what you learned about deal in your own country, you are provides many tools, also provides making in Toronto? going to avail yourself of the JACK LAYTON: Well, I try tools that exist within Kyoto to penalties, and honouring the to, and we have a lot of munic- work in the global community obligations to Kyoto would mean ipal politicians in our caucus to accomplish the equivalent of that you are going to do as much as who have that experience. I reductions, and that you would you can in your own country, you are shouldn’t be credited with this, accept that there would be a because of course I never was penalty, and the penalty has to going to avail yourself of the tools one guy, there was always do with equal reductions. But that exist within Kyoto to work in the Olivia there, too, always on the given that the government has global community to accomplish the same council, and she is far bet- said that we are going to hon- equivalent of reductions, and that ter at that kind of work than I our the Kyoto agreement, we ever was. She was the master at are going to proceed within the you would accept that there would putting together vote combina- Kyoto process, I am taking that be a penalty, and the penalty has to tions, and people predicted as a hopeful signal, that there do with equal reductions. that things would never hap- may be able to be an approach pen, and then they would. I constructed that recognizes the obliga- JACK LAYTON: Yes, that kind of keep reminding people that when it tions, accepts the consequences and thing, and we have laid out some of the comes to votes in the House, the NDP gets on with it. Let’s hope so. parameters, much as we have in the past. is the least co-operative with the PO: Right, but there is no doubt PO: So that on the 19th March it is Conservatives. The Liberals made sure that there is a margin of manoeuvre going to be clear that there are going that the Afghanistan mission exten- and the math of the committee is that to be deal makers and deal breakers for sion passed. The Prime Minister said in the Conservatives and the NDP make a you in the budget, outside the envi- the debate just before the vote, If this majority. Is there a possibility of creat- ronment, the clean air discussion? is not approved we will have an elec- ing common ground and trade-offs? JACK LAYTON: Well, we have said tion in 12 months on this issue. It was JACK LAYTON: My hope is that the that we want to see those oil and gas a confidence motion, and it was the other parties as well — my ideal sce- subsidies removed, and we want to see Liberals, Ignatieff and his group, that nario, and some people say I am some significant investment in envi- provided sufficient votes, and 11 of dreaming in Technicolour, but that we ronmental programs that should be them stayed away, which I thought could have full party agreement. That put forward, and we will push them all was a shocking moment actually for all would be quite exciting. I am not going hard and we will see what the govern- Liberals. to hold my breath, mind you, but that ment comes up with. PO: And it was Mr. Martin who put would be the ideal scenario. I think PO: Is it fair to say that this arrange- those people in harm’s way in Canadians would be positively thrilled ment, to the extent that it is a success- Kandahar, who didn’t bother to show if that could happen; like I say, I am ful working coalition, or whatever you up for the vote.

6 OPTIONS POLITIQUES MARS 2007 The NDP and the balanceQ of &powerA

Karl Belanger NDP leader Jack Layton in his office on Parliament Hill. He now holds the balance of power in Parliament. How does he play the card without overplaying it?

JACK LAYTON: I will let you say that. PO: If you can get a deal on the PO: You have often said the people But I have never been able to explain Clean Air Act in the committee and of Canada sent us here to make this how that could be considered responsible bring it back to the House, and if you Parliament work, and that is your behaviour by a parliamentarian. can support the government on the responsibility. You might consider what would budget, though obviously you don’t JACK LAYTON: Yes. have happened if the Bloc had not know that yet, do you think that this PO: Is it hard to explain that some- supported the budget last year. House can work through 2007? times to the NDP rank and file, that Constitutional convention would sug- Because then basically you are through you are working with the Conservative gest that we wouldn’t be sitting where the spring session, and into the fall. government to a certain extent to we are right now. JACK LAYTON: Impossible to say. make this Parliament work? PO: There would have been an PO: Got a gut feeling about it? JACK LAYTON: We are going to try election. JACK LAYTON: To everybody who to get results from whichever parties we JACK LAYTON: No, there could asks me, I say it is 50-50, because you can rally together to make something have been a coalition. never know. I mean, first of all, on the happen. Our most significant achieve- PO: Of course. budget, we really have no idea whether ment in this Parliament is getting our JACK LAYTON: The constitutional Mr. Harper is going to present the kind national child care act passed through history is pretty clear on that, had there of budget that we can support, even second reading. Such a bill has never been an offer. The Bloc made that with the stretch to the point of pain. been before Parliament and it didn’t get choice, and then the softwood lumber He has really not given any indication; much media attention. But what was deal was declared to be a confidence in fact, if anything the indication so far interesting was that the Bloc and the matter as well, which we didn’t support. is not very positive. A tax cut approach Liberals decided to support our bill. The I always look at these things on a case by to public policy is the one sort of signal Bloc has never supported a major new case basis, and that is what we are going that he has been sending out so far, social program in Canada. So we have to do here on climate change — let’s see and we just think it is bad economics taken a piece of legislation and moved if we can’t produce some legislation. for the country right now. it to a very important new stage.

POLICY OPTIONS 7 MARCH 2007 Jack Layton ENTRETIEN PO: And you are probably support- this if it is going to work in the North we are not giving the driver instruc- ive of Mr. Flaherty’s initiative of par- American market, and that is what we tions until we sort that out. The longer ents of disabled children setting up have advocated. We are pushing very the debate, the more predictable the child education trust funds, and other hard on it and we have heard the begin- result. Now I believe that we should be trusts for them? nings of language like that coming telling the driver now to get his foot off JACK LAYTON: We have been advo- from Mr. Harper. I don’t think for a the gas and onto the brake. cating that sort of thing. We think that minute that that would have happened PO: On Afghanistan, you said at in the disabilities act, the problem with last fall; I think that our party has your convention last September, “I will the trusts is that a family with a low played a role in pushing him there. support the troops by bringing them income with a disabled child has more PO: He now says climate change is home,” and you took a lot of heat for difficulty getting it going. It wouldn’t the most compelling issue of our time. that from people saying that it was a would have been our preferred JACK LAYTON: The first meeting we cut and run policy. Some cartoonists approach, but it is a good approach for had, I went in and said, We have an portrayed you as Taliban Jack, and that those who have the means. opportunity...It is kind of interesting to sort of thing. Can you, not in sound PO: Back to climate change here, in go back to the first things I said to him, bite terms, but if you were to recall the terms of our domestic emissions. Preston actually. Come to think of it, I remem- mission, how would you explain that Manning, quite thoughtfully I thought, ber exactly what I said: it was, “You are to our troops? If you were to go out to explained it as that we have two different a minority Parliament and we have an Petawawa and speak to their families, problems. A production issue in the West extraordinary opportunity to do some- what would you say? with Alberta’s oil patch, and a consump- thing very significant here, and I am JACK LAYTON: I say this quite often tion issue in Ontario primarily, although asking you to keep a very open mind.” when I am talking at the Legion and the auto industry is based in Ontario. I gave him a copy of a book, The other places. The reason that Canadians And I wonder how you bring those two Weather Makers, and I said, “I believe support their troops as much as they do together, especially in your party, because this book is the most important book is because these are people who will do cars are made by guys who belong to the that a policy maker could read and let’s whatever we ask them to do. They give CAW and vote for you. see if we can’t do something.” And now their best. The same reason we support JACK LAYTON: I set out a goal we find ourselves in a position where fire-fighters and police officers. There is when I became leader, which was to try that might actually happen... an understanding that these individuals and get Buzz Hargrove, and PO: And you are kind of in the dri- will take action and do what is necessary Greenpeace, and me on the same plat- ver’s seat, or at least the first passenger and what we are asked to do without form with the same policy. That hap- seat. thought for our own well-being. So that pened. Our green car strategy was JACK LAYTON: I’m in one of the is the start. But there is the other side of launched by the three of us two and a seats, I don’t know if it is in the bumper that equation, which is to make the right half years ago. And then we got togeth- car, I am not sure. I do use the decisions about what they do, and I er again and talked about fuel efficien- metaphor of a bus, and for too long we would say to our service personnel, We have come to the conclusion, I set out a goal when I became leader, which was to try and get having evaluated what is Buzz Hargrove, and Greenpeace, and me on the same platform going on in the mission, that with the same policy. That happened. Our green car strategy it doesn’t have the prospect was launched by the three of us two and a half years ago. And of success down the road. That we are on a path that then we got together again and talked about fuel efficiency, and doesn’t seem to have an end Mr. Hargrove was at the committee supporting the notion that to it, and we, like you, want it Canada should have a multi-faceted green car strategy. It has to to come to an end at some be multi-faceted with very significant improvements in fuel point. A successful end, with an Afghanistan that isn’t in efficiency on all automobiles produced here. chaos, with an Afghanistan cy, and Mr. Hargrove was at the have felt like we are on the bus, we are which has been able to be put back committee supporting the notion that looking out the front window, we can together. But after five years we don’t see Canada should have a multi-faceted see the cliff. We can see how fast we are the end in sight. So we are going to initi- green car strategy. It has to be multi- going and that we are accelerating, and ate a withdrawal and simultaneously we faceted with very significant improve- we are debating whether or not if we are going to engage with those many ments in fuel efficiency on all took our foot off the gas and put it on countries that are in Afghanistan that automobiles produced here. So we have the brake, would that actually stop us have refused our repeated requests to to have an efficiency-based approach to from going over the cliff. And therefore come to join us in the south.

8 OPTIONS POLITIQUES MARS 2007 The NDP and the balance of power Q&A PO: You mean some of our NATO JACK LAYTON: You work through hobby horse for Kevin Lynch, the partners? that the same way we always have in Clerk of the Privy Council, going back JACK LAYTON: Many, the vast Canada, when it comes to using the fed- to when he was a deputy in Industry majority, and say, All right, we are ready eral spending power. We have always — you would be supportive of that. to come and sit down with you folks believed in an asymmetrical approach, JACK LAYTON: We are calling for it, now because we are about to make a which is that you should try to work out and it has been on our list from day one. change, and we are going to sit with you, and we want to We have always believed in an asymmetrical approach, which is develop a new approach. that you should try to work out a deal. And I found, just from And we believe that direct experience, when I was president of the Federation of approach will have to be Canadian Municipalities and tried to broker the housing deal, more along the lines of what you are doing, but probably that not only could you broker a deal, but that Quebec would with some adjustments, take it up and use the money faster than any other province, because the south is a differ- even though it was clearly in an area of their responsibility. That’s ent kind of place with a dif- how the Canada and Quebec Pension Plans came to be in the ferent kind of conflict happening. So let’s work 1960s, which Tommy Douglas supported. He was a social together to come up with a democrat who believed in a strong Canadian state and supported strategy, and it would have the concept of the asymmetry of the Canada Pension Plan. to involve diplomacy, and President Karzai and I agreed on this — a deal. And I found, just from direct PO: How do you feel about the chal- he said, there must in the end be diplo- experience, when I was president of the lenge of modernizing this party and tak- macy, and there must be engagement of Federation of Canadian Municipalities ing it to where, for example, Tony Blair all parties. There has got to be, of and tried to broker the housing deal, took Labour and made it a mainstream course, rebuilding and aid, but then that not only could you broker a deal, party as well as a party of the left? there has to be a security dimension as but that Quebec would take it up and JACK LAYTON: I don’t think you a part of this process. But [it would be] use the money faster than any other can import the comparison. to end the counter-insurgency war province, even though it was clearly in PO: I was going to exclude Iraq fighting and replace it with that combi- an area of their responsibility. That’s from that equation. nation of strategies, and that as the how the Canada and Quebec Pension JACK LAYTON: Well, more than withdrawal was happening the new Plans came to be in the 1960s, which that, though. In the UK it has always approach would be engaging. That is Tommy Douglas supported. He was a been the Labour and the how I explain it. And that is what we social democrat who believed in a Conservatives; the dynamics are total- said all along was our approach. strong Canadian state and supported ly different. Since becoming leader I PO: Finally, tuition fees were raised the concept of the asymmetry of the have worked to grow our party in a in the House in February. This initiative Canada Pension Plan. much different way that respects the kind of plays a little differently in Quebec PO: The universities in Quebec are Canadian context. We have tripled our than in the rest of the country, as you starving for funding, and even the vote, doubled our caucus, elected the know, because my daughter can go to young Liberals — you probably saw highest percentage of women in histo- McGill for $1668, which is the lowest the headline in La Presse — support an ry and have re-written a federal budget tuition fee by far of any province or state increase in Quebec, lifting the freeze at for the first time since Confederation. in North America, and it is about half of least so that tuition fees in Quebec can We have been successful in helping to what it costs you to go to U of T, and rise to national levels. set the agenda of one minority about a third of what it would cost you to JACK LAYTON: We don’t support Parliament and now we are working go to Dalhousie. With the highest tuition that; we support funding post-second- hard to get progressive legislation rates, they have the highest enrolment ary education, but not the tuition fee through this Parliament. One chal- rates in the country in Nova Scotia, and increases. They make no sense. I spent lenge that I want to continue to focus Quebec with the lowest tuition rates also 13 years in university, I know that they on is making a breakthrough in has the lowest enrolment rates. So is need funding. Right across the country Quebec. I think the breakthrough in there a very different issue in Quebec the infrastructure is appalling com- Quebec is going to happen when peo- than the rest of Canada, or does the pared to when I went. ple don’t expect it, and we are going to whole issue play the same way through PO: If there is increased funding be ready for it. We have a very young for you, and what about the constitu- for PSE in the budget — and we all and dynamic team there now, and we tional issue on section 92 and 93? know, parenthetically, this has been a didn’t have a team when I came.

POLICY OPTIONS 9 MARCH 2007