Maurine Neuberger Oral History Interview – JFK#1, 2/12/1970 Administrative Information
Creator: Maurine Neuberger Interviewer: Ann M. Campbell Date of Interview: February 12, 1970 Place of Interview: Washington D.C. Length: 32 pages
Biographical Note Maurine Neuberger (1907-2000) was a Senator from Oregon from 1960 to 1967. This interview focuses on Neuberger’s time on the Status of Women commission, the role of women in the Kennedy administration, and legislation pertaining to women’s issues during the Kennedy administration, among other topics.
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Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the Library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings. Suggested Citation Maurine Neuberger, recorded interview by Ann M. Campbell, February 12, 1970 (page number), John F. Kennedy Library Oral History Program.
Maurine Neuberger– JFK #1 Table of Contents
Page Topic 1 Acquaintance with John F. Kennedy [JFK] and Jacqueline Kennedy 2 Campaigning with JFK in Oregon 3 Introducing JFK during the campaign 4 The Kennedy campaign’s issues in Oregon 5 Dinner party with JFK and Eugene McCarthy 6 McCarthy’s support of Aldai Stevenson 7 JFK’s campaign in Oregon 8 The Neuberger Amendment 9 Proposal for Oregon Dunes National Park 10 Friction with Senator Wayne Morse 12 Truth in Packaging Bill 13 JFK’s support of comprehensive consumer legislation 14 Appointment to the Status of Women Commission 15 Interest in birth control and abortion laws 16 Issues in leadership within the Women’s Bureau 18 Congresswomen’s interest in women’s issues 19 Planning the committee on smoking and health 21 Discussing the smoking issue with JFK 22 Comparison of Arthur Goldberg and Willard Wirtz 23 Political effectiveness of women organizations 25 Hearings on a federal highway bill 26 Congressional relations during the Kennedy administration 27 Trying to convince the Kennedy administration to appoint women 29 Lack of funds in Senatorial campaign 30 Involvement with Robert F. Kennedy’s 1968 campaign 31 Bringing JFK to Oregon Dunes 33 Differences in travelling with JFK versus Lyndon B. Johnson Oral History interview
with
SENATOR MAURINE NEUBERGER
February 12, 1970 Washington, D.C. By Ann M. Campbell
For the John F. Kennedy Library
Mrs. Neubergei:, l suppose that a logical place to be,·i1'rJ would be to ask you if you reaall when you first met John Kennedy?
NEUBERGER: Yes. I recall very well be~ause he was a Sena tor and my husband was a Senator. And when we arrived as a new Senator, we were greeted. Then we found that we lived just a block apart in Georgetown. we were living in a house--ob, I forget the number-..... like 3319 O Street and they lived at the same number on N Street. And so X used to see Mrs. Kennedy in the nei91,lborhood. And then the [Robert F.] Bobby Kennedys lived up the street a few doors. So on summer evenings sitting on a stoop there was much running around. We lived next door to the surgeon General, and it was great fun. And one of my early memories is, among the set of wives was Mrs. Herbert Lehman, who used to have some ladies in for tea once in awhile in her apartment in the Sheraton wh¢.re she had been doing eome painting; and Mrs. Kennedy was $hy and, ·Of course, many years younger than most of us, but the one place she would always 90 wcUJ to Edi th Lehman's. I was there one time and I was telling them about the fact that I knew how to do the hula. I was doing the hula dance~ Jackie Alu:A~s I 11 I tJA i4 J "I alwa ys remember you that day doing the hula. And -2-
it just seemed to kind of loosen up the afte.tnoon. Well, we saw the Kennedys a lot. When he was contem plating that he might consider running for the p.residency, I remember them having us over t:.o dinner one nigbt with the [Eugene J.] Gene MaCarthys,. And there were the Mccarthys, the Neuberqea;s., and the Kennedys., And we had a deli.cghtful time. It was when Caroline was a baby because her pram was in the hall, and we said, ••ob, d<:>n • t we 9et t.o see her?" And I remember she was just a wee little thing. But, a lot of my memories are of being with them at parties, but Mts. Kennedy always being very shy and being 1n the background .. So then, of course, I was interes,t.ed in the Oregon ~ac:e and he came out--of eourse, my husband bad died in the mean time. And Oiek [Richard L .. Neuberc,;rer], right to the bitter end, was interested in that pre!lidential raee. An-d I oan remember his eayin9 to me in--that would be like December. 1959-·"X think John l(enned.y is going to be President.•• And we talked about it a lot. Md I said, "What about the Catholic issue?" The fight over the federal aid to, education was very prominent. that year and was an issue in my cam- paiqn and his too.. Ana nick said something to me that I used in the campaign, that if John I During the presidency one day we 'ere at a luncheon at the Luxembourg Embassy and he motioned me aside. I don't know why. • ,. • It waa a very small pa~ty.. 1Uld Kennedy pulled me aside. and w stood over in the corner by a biq wind.ow, and he said, "What gives with Wayne Morse?" And he Gaid--th.ey'd just had a fight over an duo tion '.bill--he said,. 'tHere he•s just put through this education bill that we•a all wanted; the fed :ral aid to education, so opposed for so many yealis." And he &aid, "He·•s great. And then again he'll turn against me, and he'll call me up per sonally and just 9ive me hell over the'9phone.. And, yet, I have to gi.ve him credit for doing this." CAMP.BELL: Back .· t:o Senator Mor•· and back to •the Oregon primary, wha·t i• your recollection of why Sena tor Morse entered that race against!1he Preaident, or against the then Senator Kennedy? Do you recall that he ran in the election? NEUBERGERt Yes. Be wanted to g'et into the favorite son posi tion, and z think Senator Morse always was a hope ful in the background somewhere. ,. .. • He was a 9reat orator. He• d O.en a great liberal. He had received a lot of national attention. when he shifted from the Republican Party to ~e Democratic Party, and he inaclle much of it., that tbis was an issue 0£ principle, that it wasn't for political advantage. Now, there are sOll\e of us who think it was for political advantage because Oregon had been a Republican state when he ran and no Demoe~at could get elected; well, then my husband came along and changed the whole complexion, and then Morse saw that tbis was a nemoeratie state. He is ·v ry good at feeling the wind. But, ? think he really thought that somebody might turn around and see him there some day. Md he probably never did think that a eatholia could be el eted., CAMPBELL & What w r th sign.ifieant problems tor the t NlID.BERGER: The catholic issue. Oregon, at one time, had been, as anti-Catholic as any tate. And we had pas$ed a law hich required all children to go to public schools. ell, that was a. re 1 anti-catholic move ... ment. And this great Saint Mary•s Academy was about to close down. Th t passed a a i-eferenduru, a vot~ of the peopl .. tt wasn't just a more whim of the leqislatu.t' .. Th.en, of eourse, it was declar·ed unconstitutional because it inte.r fer d: with freedom af religion ana freeclont of ehoice. CAMPBELL; Did the Kennedy people handle th re1igious issue aa w ll s they coula ha in Oregon? Nm1BERGER.1 It wasn • t until after that tJ1at be made the qr.eat speech in Texas .. n>BELL: ell, that was made duri.nq the campaign before the elect.ion. tQ'l3UlU!RGERt Yes. Befor - the election, hut well he was* • • • YGu know, this was an isaue and l think h kept knowing he had to face it. And % told him that, that that wa$ his big stumbling block was the catholic is sue. It was just that we didn ' t know how bigoted Oregonians were until that came up, because I felt it in every kind of meeting I went to, and I went to many small meetings: little units of MUW [Ameridan Association of university women}, l i t ·tle neighborhood groups, may.be the women's auxiliary of a labor union group, or the labor union itself. We have very f · w Jews and w hav very few Catholica. We were what you• d today call WASP [White Ang~o-Saxon Prote&tant·], I · uppose .. of course, no Negroes to .speak of. I noti·a it now wh n I g ·.. o egon.. the garbage man is whiter the Q liv ry man is white; the handy man is white. It's th t kina of community CAMP ELL• I was intere· ted in your description of the din n r party befo1:e the 196.0 . am-paign and sen tot Mccarthy being there. Do you r qall hie poeition at that ti.me, his • • • -6- lmuBERGER: Yes, l do, b oause I sked Diak as we went hom • r and we talked--in fae.t, Gene, I think, wa lat qetting there, AJ:)i9ail {Quigley ~etCar:thyJ wa.a there.... -well, anyhow, it was i>c people sitting around in a room. u:nterruption} You see, what was hap pening was, and th thing that put Gen . !lc::Cai:thy in the spot was, Hubert Humphrey being his colleague from Minneaota. Jmii :t ju.at sat there wonde.rin9, even though Jackie and I werek.kind .of talki.ng 9J.rl talk on the aid a little bit, but I was very interested. Jack Kennedy was r ·.ally just sort of feeling out how mueh loyalty Mccarthy had toward Hubert, what my husband thought of the est. And I thought, 0 I Gene Mc:Carthy going to be torn by his ca.t'bolic:d.sm to sup po.t't a fe · 1ow c tholic or what'·• his position with Hubert? 14 so on the way home we w lked around tbe corn r and I aaid. nWhat will MCCarthy do?'' And Dick said; "He' 11 support Hubert .. " Which I tll!t.nk he did, didn't he? EVentually be ended up nominatinq Adlai Steven son wltet;t HuiIJphrey dropped out of the race. NEUBERGER: But be d:t.&l•t go for Kennedy,.. 'lhat•s what. I ·ear.t. I i.n\plied that. .. .. • I meant to sucg qedt that. I remember becauee z was at that Cenventian. '1.'his i.s a aha.racteristio of GeneMcCarthy that's a whole other story that I think showed up a't that time. CAMPBELLr Was your husband prepared to support senator Kennedy for the pr~sidency? NWSERGER: Oh, yes. He would have, even though we were d - vot -ii t:o Adl i and dla i h d taye-d with us. dl_ i had always called my hu band his oldest olitic l fri nd becau.e Dick was the on who said to him, "You're natur 1 .. You ought to go into politics .. n He'd never ven run for a pr cinat committeeman when he visited in Oregon. nd my husband - . t him at th~ UN eet!ng in S n Francisco. aut~ Dick would. • • • knew, I think, that A~lat wasn't goirtq to be President, although he tbought h would be 9.reat.. aut, they had worked t0rg tber with Kennedy on some labor .legislation and h saw the qu lity, I t11ink, that Jack h d. And I knew he w"' s oing to support him .. f' -7- CM.u?BELL: W' re there any other reoolleotion of the '60 campaign in Oregon? How eff otiv were so of the Kennedy people? Did you actually work with so e of th peopl . en the ·· oen ? NEUBlUlGEl'h well, Bobby came out; I rememb r Bobby.. (Edward M. J Ted and I went to, oh, went to a funny meeting. Ted~ l 9uess, mus h~ve been in c li~ fornia,. and of course, be 1 ju t such a baby then--ten year. ago ~at wa he twenty-four or f iv ? And of course, l h -r ly kn~ h.i.m ·c:utr::ept that he and ~ h.ad been on the dais at cancer Socie·t.y me ting som.ewher • .He ~s working in the cancer thing in Massachusetts.. I was in Medford, Oregon. ~e way my 11uaband nd .I had .camp i9ned for Dick• lection was that h · 'd qo on way and ! 90 another. t e had little money and littl time. So I bad a lot of good friend in th southern part of the state in Medford. And for aome re son that was a good ground for me.. And while I was down there, the Democratic chairman said, •I thintt it would do you ~ood to qo out to this little town in G..rants Paes. Thei:e aren 1 t many people there, and there ar very few Democrats, but it'll make a sens tion if you come in tbexe. You might as well get what vote ther:e are, and the women in that neighborhood might vote fox you anyhow .. 11 Then ehe got""word that 'red Kennedy was going to come up and be in Medford .. We got Ted, and Ted and she and I went out to Grants Pass through the coldest morning to a luncheon in a Grange Hall. I think about seventy people turned out to see the Senator's brother and the Senator's widow (me) . I remember how Ted was so shy and kind o:f hung on to me t.o be the leader in the thing. w alked about it m ny tim s since. But, so he wasn't too ffeotive ju t pr se. But_, tQ go along with me and, and I f lt I was going along with him, we work d to- t.b r. Ev rything counted .. CAMP ELL: Was t.her ~vor a time in which you wer reluctant to haV" Ke.nne y people appeating ith you simply becaus~ the roliqioue issue w s to·ugh one for you in ·Oregon? NEUBERGER: It was not a tough one for m • -a- C ~ DEI,L· W 11, I rt the · st:>ci ti n \'lith th r ligious problem,. Nm GS : No, it wa n • t, because l wa prou of the fact that Dick, whom everybody .r speeteCI an who had a good a.sse ament of people, and he had. ass sed dy and f lt wam tow rd him and like bin\. And l knew th everybody who kn · m and knew Dick would know that if we liked somebody nd thought thef were worthwhile and could b President, that th t gn~ them strength. And t had many a deb t and di$eussion. ith p ople about why w should eleot Kennedy.. I really ·was campaigning fcu: him more than for mys lf in many instanaee because I f lt p etty stron9. I was running' agaittst a former 9overnor but he•d nevar been a popttlaJ: governor, and so I wasnjt. veJ:y worried.. And l r ally forgo·t sometimes that I was running- bec:ause I was really devoted to John K nnedy. CAMPBELr.. c Did it surprise you that h didn•t carry the st te? bmtraERGEth No.. It didn't" beoau.se I J~ne th t so, e of ·those poor people w re just--tl1ey just didn! t know how to confront such a n idea of a Cat olio president. They•d never voted for [Alfred E.} Al Smith back in his day. and they eou1an•t qu:l:te do it. But, n vertheless,, well, th~ whole thing ehan9ed.. 'they were. - • • They'd ha voted if 'h· 'd run aqain. It would be fine. c !!PBELL: I wanted to talk about some of the legislation you w re involv din, the SO · alletl · uberg r Am.:ndtnent th t went throuqh in 1962 to enable lumber sbip nts fr th W ·t Coa ·t to bG Shipped on for eign hip t. a aving to your w st Coast lumbermen. Did you have Whit House suppo~t for that? En -Elh Oh~:;y s. ~ id. This i Cftll d tbe Jo e Ac:t. I wa in~ :r· sting. I'm tlt Yin9 here. at the wide ' o s nator {E. It. J Bat'. 1 tt and it was l -9- l:~al.ly he, :r think# tbat first indoctrinated both Dick nd e, \ n v. er in Al ·· ka, of what a terrible ban teap thi was to Alastm. But also we h d the opposition of Senator [Warr n G.J agnus~ ., who was - close f~iend and neigl:lbor, b oaus Seattle profited from th Jones et, which mcde 11 snip come into Seattle. ob B rtlett and · rren Magnuson, who er ClQse friends, but they pai:ted aompany on that. And · g in, I never f lt that X bad any thirs:g to lose. I think it was Woodrow ilson said, "When in doubt,, do w'hat•s ri~ht... And 1•ve always found that no ol!tic i the best politics. nd if I could 90 into the f c of wb t. has been t oditionally oppo it1on and explain th t maybe I had some information they didn"'t have, I don't think it ev:· r hurt m to 90 against th • • • · • Well, look, :t pick d up Upport fro the lumber people# most of them. Th~y even gve me a testimonial dinner in Portland, and most of them--I doU:'bt if they'd ever voted for either Neub rqe:r:. "the p.eople want their ei.·· cted representative# to be their r$pres ntatives. .And when it comes to poaketbook nerv they sonisti-mes "6'rqet th policies of a party alignment. And :t could ser it.. I JtaW it when X was ith Presi.... ent Johnson t.irhen he was Vice President in Puerto Ri¢o and e went to a P ac co~ps camp. And I saw a pl ce of lwnber- .sed in building a new barracks, and the n1an was from ore9on, the head of that w s fx-om Convallis, and: , ,. ·. said, ••xt • net fintahed because we ean•t:. get luniber.•• And I said, "Our lwnbermen are crying to ll ~" !nraber, .. that. they ean•t snip it here. And I brought this ·pl.ea of lumber baek which ' as stamped with n Canadian · ompany, because Canada could ship to Ptterto Rico but Oregon couldn't ,ship to Puerto Ric:o .. And, ·11, ·even Senator Magnuson finally cam around. Of course, th old act wa still in effeot .. bu . it'Ei ob rved mor · i.n the bt.»eaeh than in tl reality. , of aoU:rs • wh t eha. g d it ~ Alas~e u ed to be absolut ly dep nd nt on hipping.. o th Alea Highway, tl1 t""uoking.,. it do sn•t · ffect, nd a lot ol air f.reigbt goeJi i .. Be 'lly Magnuson ought to eras it. off th~ ook Qr somebody ought to • •_ .... .,...... - .!E>·EL i ·- I · l. 963 th .r as prop0sal for Ot:egon Dun National l?arko How had you worked with the Wbtto Hou on this, or h d ~ you? -10- , NE'Ul3ERGER: We ll, I worked with Secretary [Stewart L~J Udall, which was the same . And we waited for the Na tional :Resources Review Commission to aome out with their report which was, I guess, a two year study. Laurance Ro<:!'kefe!ler was on it. And so everything k i nd of went into the deep f.re~ze till they came out. we really waited to see what they were going to say, and they recom mended the Oregon Dunes. so then I picked it up again. I had support from Laurance Rockefeller. But the stumbling block was that it was Qpposed by Wayne Morse. And there was much demand for mQney :for Padre Island Park, for Point Reyes Park, cape Cod Seashore Park, and .it was just un heard of in the Senatsfor any state to have a pro pect of a development within the state to not have both Senators to want it. And they said, "Phooey, we need to buy up land for Point Reyes (which they're still doing), and there must be something f unny if two Senators don't ·1abt i t ." Well, I had to go around gui~tly and say, "DOn't you know your colleague yet? '1hat if it had been the Morse bill, he'd would have wanted it, bu.t if it was the Neuberger bill, he didn't?" And it was pul:'e pique and jealousy that he wouldn't support that bill. And it had something to do with his defeat recently. fte kept refusing. He always weaseled out of it. We finally got the bill report <1out of the committee. · It was on the aalendar. I begged Senator [Michael J . ] Mansfield to bring it up and senator Mansfield didn ' t want me to get into a dog fight with h im on the floo.r . I said, 11 ! don't care . I ' m on the r i ght. We should have that park. It's wanted in Oregon and I want people in Oregon to know why we don't have it. " But, they stalled and s t alled, .and, then, of oourse, Morse threatened to hold up the Senate. We were nearing adjournment; and all the other Senators .then were feeling unhappy, and they wanted to support me, and what could I do. And I thought, ''It's deserving; it' 11 come." So now Senator [Robert W.J Packwood is supporting it. eAMPBELL: What s,o.rt of problems did this present or you in general? Was Oregon 1 s senatoxial team us ually able to present a united front? -11- NEUBERGER t They haan' t b - en eince Dich; NeubeE.ger wa elected~ Oh, 11ome ntinoa: thing tbat was ju$t pro forma,, btlt anything new" Me~e would just take the opposite ~aek., d I juat alwaya be-li•v ~ in the principle that the rigbt will 0ut. And l wa in the posi tion ;here I eouldn't -90 around and tell eve:r:ybody what it w s. nut i ·t w· sn ~t long till they bec;Jan t.e ee beoa1;1 e JP$C-ple came ~ck he e fro - Oregon on v.a.ricu~ tssues, th ster·J:a Club and oon-e-erreatiotd.st:s who w nt~d thf.s, and 1 tct, '*Well, go talk to Senator Horse. He 1 s the one thae's bol.din9' it up. " And they would get wishy-washy answ :rs. M finally it ea.me a~~ to a showd.o\'Jn#. ttnd they began to 111a • And. of co"rse, new. wherev-ti.r I go they say. "'Yo·u wer right. He was if.tubborn. 0 And i -t wasn • t only on that r there were many other i:t1su 9,,. And the-n he had--h ts a powe~\ll man- i.n the s nate, and he had lot• of pewer ,over secretary Udall. And, of oourse, Stu ud 11 wall a friend ,of tnf.neo1 He-'d eome'" • • • ~ e' d all aom~ to '.Waehington t.oqetne.t-.. He came to the Hout1e when we eame to ~he Senat • We were very a1ose.. _d herd t 11 me p)!ivately thinqs. but he wouldn •t at nd up to tbem. 11~11, he tEust:l.fi•d in the cOl.lUt\ittee.. !le was always tryinf 1!.o pl•oate More _ bef:au-se th y always all b li vea that even~ual:Ly M<>it• would eome AJtOund .. Pinally, I said_, 0 %"11 take a baek •eat.. Let Morse put the bill in.. l want the nunes. '* Md, bu"t by this time Morse was so !dent:ifed as being against: l:t.. • .. .. 'then, of coune~ the lumber twrapanies -were blg lobby*ata1 they didn • tt really want tt .. And tbe Forest senice dictA*t want it.be c:auae they wanted t -o m8Jla1fe it under the FOJten Mul.tipl~ Vse Act. An-d Udall was caught.. So then Ud.al1 also thought~ '-Well. 1. t • • vet Padre .Ialand and that• 11 be a ·aucceaa. Let's get the Notth Carolina one, which .il-s the first. one.. i,at•• get Point tteyea .. " And be kept ratiorta liz.iAg it to ld.111self and t-o· me tlJ.at we'd work up to oregoa. Then; there .._., alway:a ·tbe talk t.bat O.l:eg-t1n 1• Ctt.11 of fo:trfft:e and full of parka a11d net uny pe.ol;>le: and 'W• didt\'t au-a it e• •uch .. B~t.. J said.- "ftet 4.en•t bhe polnt. The JIOt dot atands ar$ aovlq !n tbete, ud ao. b!'" tbe time you i-eally get around to it, tt •11 be .so expenaiv$ etiat yau • 11 L '\fish you bought it in 1.9G4.tt And that•s what.•s happening .. -13- they gave is to l iigh. And the same way with the cigarette things ot what the Tobacco Institute said that somebody up her _ is out of his ind s yinq that cigar tt.es c use aancer1 They we~e very timit. You could 9et statemen~ out of them that the public mu t have the infoll:fllatton to choose. '!'ho are nice words. Bu.t:, it never bothered me bec:aur1e I have seen up to then, and I see it mer clearly now, the e ucational process that goes on, and sometimes you have to educate your own people. .But every time a bill ie intro- ueed a line of reaction i started. And Kennedy himself sed to say, as confuciu.s said, that the journey of thousand miles begins with a single step,. And he was willing to take the single step. And e took it by putting in the bill. And maybe HEW {Department of Health, Education, and welfare] or Bur.eau of standards would come up and gt us a little sup port or the .FTC [Federal Trade commission] or somebody. And this was tbe slower way, but people were g tting warmed up an eauaated, and y.ou couldn't 90 too fast. CAMPBELL; In March of 1962. the Pres. dent sent a mes-· sage to Congress recommending enactment of so called coinprehensive oonsumer legislation. We·. - you involved in the drafting ·or in the ideas behind that rnessaqe at all? NEUBERGER: Yes,. we "Ceally were.. All of us were consulted on what our ideas were. My viewp · int was the women•s viewpoint, which I think he considered very val11able, because I recalled to him that I'd taken part en the•-the election mu•t have been, was it November 21-- 0ctob r 30th ox 31st, heh d a meeting in Brooklyn. And tbere was a women* group, l gues , and n- said the con~ sum :: would be represented in bi$ Adillinistxation. Md I al"1 ys quoted th t, and it was tied in with. women and consumers. J\nd he meant it, and he did it.. u sent conaumex message up. And l told him. it wa good politics~ J: • d beieti swunq tnta politics in th l gi lature .on the conawn r issue. nd today peopl~ still reaall it.. I'm i entified with oonswner items and eiqartattea. And I think that he kn thi • -14- Well, then,_ of eour , h uppointed me to the St tua of ·'lonten commi sion. 1\ nd again when .I went out on that.,. I was nev r very milttant on the women•s issue becaus I thouqht women uld c001 . into their own when they g: t .du- e ti.on and wh .n th ~ y mad Gome fight an saw that olitica. w·s the way t.o ncciampli h things. And I thought if we oould tak an issue which they could under$tantl liJte consumers nd we· saw that legislation went through on th t, they would e · th t all things could take plade l;hat way. And they •••• ost of th do. Of aourse, the discour 9in9 thing with women and w1tb consumer things i · the Ve1W women we're trying to help are absolutely unaware of what w •r doing: the po r woman who works in the laundry, the poor woman who's got some very low p "':d me iocre job do sn • t know that some of th rewardrt and emolum n'ts she baa are because· Jack Kenfiedy or Lyndon Johnson or Esthe# Peteraoa or I or an(hody else worked. But eventually tbey will .. tv'hen you were appointed to the CotMlission on the .Status of ~ om n, what was your general under standing of the purpose· of this roup? NEUBERGER: I was please.Cl and. of eours.e, .Mrs.. [A .. Eleanor·J Roosevelt wa's chairman., and she'd been a 9ood exponent cf a woman who 1 d baen, even as First r..ady., she' d 90 off in her little Ford and run around the country, you know.. And all these lovely cartoons, it was, "H$re comes Eleanot" down the road in a little old Fora.n 'then she came to Oregon. I think she did a.""great deal fo.t t.lle women"s movement. And she as kind of old hat an.d that rt of thing. So when I w mt on the Commie ion, I. of cours • was eoncem --d with women in politic 'beo us I was convinced, in ~ legi · lative xperience, th t wo h d .rol to play, and l am 1D this day aqainst militancy and picketing and arching. :t think th· thing to do is 90 out and get peopl elected who su p rt your program. · nd so when I w nt on the Comm.iss"iOr\, ac:::tually, for speeifie legislation f:h i eoul t'I see W$ tt eded for women, I as inter.est~d .in the plight of the ingl w men,. b e"t:Ause.;>1:i0:i't\o ·g1't he qot an unf ix ~h 1$ on the social se~urity law • ell, look, any ye rs it• tal~en but that is inco:rpora · d in the / -15- new tax bill. And t always cite that to people: that it's frustX'ating and it take$ a long tim , but eventually it comefl to pass. t was interested in th women I knew who were widowed and who had to go baok to work and had riobo'1y to take care of ohildr•n. I introduced the vety first, let•s call it the "babysittin,9 bill, 0 in the united states~ And it went in the legislature. '!'hat's when Eleanor Roosevelt and I became friends, bec:ause she was writing a column called uMy Day," and she included. that in her column and said, uMaurine Ne1tbet'ger has finally won over tho$e men and passed a baby tllitting bill. n And so I was inteJ:ested in that when I came on the status of 't'. omen Commission~ I was very much inte;'ested in birth co11trol and abortion iaw. wo sure hact to fight the abortion law business.. An.d, of aourse, we didn•t get .anywhel:'e with it during the first Commission. But, it mis too new an idea. It wasn 1 t anything Kennedy# catholicism, or anythin91 it was just ·one of those ideas that people had te finally come to b lieve in. Ancl,. aotually, the people in the Administration were protecting the Administration by urging us not to do it. And it came up in the cornmi.ttee, but, yuu see, we were a Commission that bad to go through the Labor Department and GSA [ Well, [Arthur J.] Goldberg was. bu~ then [w. Willard] Wirt2 took ov•r. NEUBERGER: so it was really Wirtz. And he would have had to okay the pr!nting of tn~ mat~~ial. But Esther Pet:erson6 I don 1 t think, ever ,even let it get up to him. B~ I knew Bill Wirtz very well because of Adlai and [Newton x.} ·ewt M1now and so on.. And r just deQided, 11Why make life ha.rd for him at that time?'' because ? knew we•a have anothex.- strike at: it, Which we did. And it' .e n0\41 the moat quotec::h most in demana government publi. cation practi ally...... out of the Wo~n•s Bureau at least. -16- CAMPBELL: Were you generally pleased with the activites of the Women's Bureau at this time? NEUBERGER: I am now. CAMPBELL: Yes. Well, you indicated displeasure at that time. How, how could they have been improved, the prog.:uams of the Women's Bureau at that time? NEUBERGER: And the fault didn't start with. was Esther appointed by Kennedy? CAMPBELL: Yes. NEUBERGER: [Ma.ry D.] Keyserf ing by [Lyndon B.] Johnson? CAMPBELL: Yes. NEUBERGER: The fault of the Women's Bureau began even be fore that. It began under [D\vight D.] Eisen hower, that woman. What was her name? Alcorn? CAMPBELL: Well, Alice Leopold was there . NEUBERGER: Leopold. Leopold. Alcorn was the committee woman, was where I first encountered it, because that · ~· s when I was first here, ·under an Eisenhower Administration with my husband. And I was still working on women's things, and I encountered her. I could see that they were using it more or less as a political arm, just as the Treasurer of the United States is still used. And that should be done away with. That's a job that I would .. If I had been appointed to it, as it was once talked, I would be. . . I would have said I would have done away with it. And to this day, well up until this new Mrs. [Elizabeth ·n.) Koontz, the Women's Bureau just took material that' was fed into them first by statistic i~ ns and I suppose now by computers. And they just kept updating things. 'I'hey' d add another two zeros at the end of how many women were em ployed, how many women were divorced, how many women had jobs and how many women were college graduates. And I began to find r couldn't use t11eir material when I began -17- t ~ri·e spe ahes or qo ou.t and speak; i wa so ull. nd l be9an to que tion some of the factuality 0£ :i.t becaus it; dian•t jut to jibe witb'that ! ~ inding in th. country.. It was a bureau t · t had name, nd w ·n verywhere thottgbt they were being f!l&rvice.d and prot eted :by lt, and th y weren't. And it took the women in congres to do some thing for women. J:t was C.'\.liU'BELL: You mentioned. that perhaps the women in Congress were more effective spokesmen for the women's cause than was the Women.• s Bureau. I've beard it sat.d that you we.re a Senator wlllin.g to a<:t in that role and that perhaps Mrs. (Margaret Chas$] Slllith. was not so w.illi.ng to .. NEUBERGElh She was not, Marg-aret Smith and I are ju t poles apart in temperament and per$onality. we were cordial and l'd say I'd consideJ: her a friend. She was very nice to me. sut we had no intimacy or no com muni.eation, and the people thought because we were the only two women senators.,, we would. And they often asked me. J\nd z saiO, uno you ·kn.ow that months can go by and I won't see Margaret? We're not on the same committees. We're on oppo site sides of the aisle. we dontt have anything in common. We don't move in the same circles. It isn't because we're political opposites. we just don't. • • .. She's in another building from me. we don't .ri<;le the same subway." She, of course, through ber senk>rity had moved into things· liked Armed Services. She had no t.tuck wi1?h women't things, nor c:oneu.mers• things. CAMPBELL: Was it beneficial to the women's movement, so called, that Mrs . [Edith] Greene seemed t..o be interested f .rom t ime to time. I think she w.as active in the ~'qual pay effort .. NEUBERGER: Yes. 1rhat was all. When I say the :women in Congress, I was thin1'ing mostly of Mar-tha' · Griffiths and Leonor Sullivan. Even Patsy Mink haem' t been as outspoken as I thought she should be .. I don't know about Margaret Mechler, although she was my congressman for a short time while I was in Massachusetts. And, in fact, I had a.n appointmen·t one tine with a man to 90 and call on her when she was home about some legisla tion, but we never did get it done. Mrs.. {Cathex-ineJ May became roy opposU;.e, I mean my opponent on consumer legisl.ation. Mrs. May was conquered, taken ove.r, absorbed., pet-suaded by the anti-consumer legislation people to be the counterpart to the offensive of Maurine Neuberger. I would find her giving speeches the opposite of mine that would appear in t h ings like Falim -19- Journal and areas, that the American housewife is the luckiest housewife in the world, she has the greatest choice at the market and so on, that kind of stuff. I suppose Margaret Smith would vote for good legis lation, but I don't think she'd ever say a mumbling word. She just felt that Mainers were different, and Margaret always kept her ear to Maine. We*d talk; about it a little bit. "In Maine we do this." She was much more fearful than l because to her, politics was mo.re her life and her career. To me, it wasn't. If I could accomplish something and o something, I didn't care whether the bulk of the voters liked it. I knew the people would like it. Well, if it cost me the election, I really didn't care. That's why I say I think that no polities is the best politics.. I just know that it never hurt me a bit, and that if I had run again and wanted to run again, I would have been elected. Everybody in Oregon tells me that1 I might as well assume it. But I just didn't want to work that hard, I didn't want to 90 out and 90 on bended knee for money which I had to do. I had to go to people like Averell Harriman who _hdd been very nice to me md gave me money, but I didn • t want to do that. People always say to me shouldn't there be a limit, an age limit on Senators or congressmen... I say., .. No, not an age limit because man,Yi people who are old, where they'd say sixty-five or seventy, are doing wonderful jobs." But, I think there should be a term limit. I would give every Senator a term limit of eighteen years, three six-year terms. If we ean give the President of the united States a limit, I think we could give Senators a limit because there's no in dispensable man. I found that out. I miss some of them, but they• re not indispe~~ble. Somebody's there to ta'ke their place. But if they11Eu.ghteen years, they ought ~o get a program throuqh and they wouldn't have to worry about wher the money's coming from for the next eledtion. They wouldn't have to worry about r"6tJ:ibutions. ,· · Let's talk about your efforts in the SlllOking and health field during the Kennedy Administ.ra tion. er you involved early on in the plans fot' th eommittee that the surgeon Genexal announced in June of 1962, the committee on smoking and health? -20- NEUBERGER: J: .said that pol;i.'ticians shouldn't be on it, e$pecially anybody as closely identified with it as I was, bea~use tben they'd have ev~ry xc:use t.o talk about a e1an.t.. I said. • •. .. '!'he only thing i ever talked t ·o the Secretary-not (Anthony J. J celebrezze., {Abraham A. J Ribieo£f I talked to about it. Who was fte:r celebre ze? CAMPBELLc well, it was Ribicoff or celebrez2e, I imaginef NEU8ERGER1 It was Ribiooff, and I talked to celebrezze. But I said, "I just~ hope somebody from the to bacco industry is on it." (And somebody was). 11 %t'S· got to be a very fair committee or else we haven't gained. 11 And I think it was b~cause it was taken pretty fierioualy, even the 'l'obacoo Inetitut:EJ i. J: feel I was in volved in it for the reason that I wa.s t.be one who'd given publioit.y to ~he Roya!J College of PhysS.cians and surgeons Reportr , Sir Robert Platt, and I was the one who could walk 1n on that floor every day and said. '"Another report, lung cancer statistics." You know, they'd pay no attention to me* "There she is haranquing away.•• sut. you know who wa a ve'l:y good mentor to me was Estes Kefauver. l saw poor E tes come in there. -rbey all 'kindly got up and walked out: her~. Est.es is again talking about the high o()st.s of drugs arid so on. Heid just mumble along. I don•t know whether you ever heard him $peak, did you? He had no presenee1 he talked down bis collar. But be k$pt 11t i.t.. He never let up.. l'. watched him. In fact, he got me to '-11ork w!th him on the anti-COMSA'r, private control of the satellit business. 2\nd it was that dogged determinatibrt. And so everytime tl1ere was any little clipping--and then people began to send me clippinqs. A Houston medical center had man who used to send· me all kinds of stuff about what was up wi.th1 m·ybe, transplants, a lot of help. And I just kep gcg"~ing at it. And so the Tobacco Institute was making suoh a fuss about it that :t kn w it was hurting. Then w~ just kne'w we c:ouldn' t qet anyplace until we had a good report. And I wae delighted.. So then we all sat and waited juat as we did o~ the Resources Review Commission. · t were they going to say? ell, of course, the docu menta tion was there. / - 21- CAMPBELL; l ere you g nerally pleas d with the entire re port and th conduct of the committee? .mroBERGER: Y fh Yes.. 'J'.'he whole thing w s very w 11 do.ne. And w · kn - it w s re dy to come out. I had my apies and, of course. my seer t friends on it. 1ho knew it was ready to come out. And they were really holding- it back for awhile; but they had to come .. We.re you involved at all in the su99Gstion that we he.ax- of political pt.'essure:ith t was put on to get that report out earlier? NEUBERGER: Well, we let. them know we were waiting for it. My M [Administrative Assistant] ,and my LA [Legislative Assistant} who wor ad with me on my book and on the smoking- thing is now Senator Magnuson' obief coun.sel for the Commerce committee. I brought him bei-e a$ a kia from Portland.. And he's a very sweet guy, and everybody loves Mike P rtschuk. He just haa friends. Well, the chief counsel f r th · Phi.lip Morris Tobac:eo company was a good friend. He'd been a Yale 'Classma~e of Mik •a.. _nd we just knew.. In thL town you ean find out things.. I couldn't tell you anything specific, but we knew that they were having a terrib.le time about getting it out because they knew it wa,s going to be earth-shaking no matt.er what the tobacco peop.le would do. But times have changed. People are smarter. The; re less able to be fooled. They're better educatedt and 1 think government isctl.oser to people, and there is more directness between government and people now than there w s even in my day.. I tell my students in my aemin rs that I think there•s less going on inthe way of what we call armt:wisti.n9 and behind the Qenes t:han th r has ever been in the history of this country, that we r ally have a p.r, tty open gov rnment except on security foreign affairs. Do you .recall any converstions with the Presi ~ent about the smoking i sue? -22- Nf.."tJ. ERGER: Yes., Littl . asides at partl.es or so o .. H smok s a ci.J11n:,. He sai , 11 Do you think a ciqar will kill nie?r• I said, 'No. tt won• t but/' I id, "l have to say t t because the chairman of th commlt tet? smokes cigar ll the ti~,, and he ven announced as he op n d the h arings that he was going to turn over to me, 1 ell, Senator Neuberg r will take ch J:9e of i.t as long s you don.l t 90 out af~er ei9aJ:s. •" And it put evex-ybody in a good mood and they• d laugh and so on.. Th Pr(:ud.dent appre ciated i.t. $BELL1 Do yol1 fa ·1 th t the Whit Hous w s in support f some soJ:""t of legislation along the lines th.at finally got through? NEUBERGER: No, because it wa still too early in the gam., you see-.. It waan' t actually,, • • .. Le.t' s se , Kennedy was killed in '63. November '63. d I think the advances that h ve been made in legislation bav re lly oomQ more sinee then .. CAMPBELL: That's x-i9ht:.. NEUSSRGERt ~e never had ny opposition from Johnson but we never had any real support. CAMPBELL: Is it possible to aompare the two secretaries of Labor,· Mr. Goldberq and Mr. Wirtz1 in their con cern for women's affairs and th i.r cooperation with ••• NEUBERGER: Well, I personally, w s so fond of both of them and they '\·ere both in the Stev n on office and we were ther in Chicago so much th t I didn • t thin1~ of them in that way e.Jccept th· t a:e I began to work, when I th n became chairman of the cQunoil after I left the Senate, and I worked with Vi b;tz, I found it vet"y frustrating. I tbink he was really fed up with the job, and he was just iting to 9et out,. He ·didn 1 t know whet.he->: he had to stick with the President till he. _ !t • Itm sur th t if Pre ident Johnson h d run and ~ ·en elected that i:rtz would have re signed. I don't think he "ould have .stayedil' He was very tl ss. aybe he lik d working better with Kennedy .. -23- , , NEvBERGER : Goldberq loft.. I BEUS ·RGE!h Well, who sent him to the UN? Johnson? BELL: Jobns·on. NEUBERGER: That's right. The Vietnam thing be9an to qet warm then .. C P-BELLt TbeJ:"e'e a book o:ut that yo · 're probably familiar with called Women in Ameri¢an Politics, [Martin] Gruber9. mru8ERGER1 SandeJrs? Marian Sanders? CAMPBELL: Gruber9, x b lieve. is the author. I just have a little qttote out of it th t quotes President Johnson s saying,, f~I like women singly but am' ac red of t'hem in organization .. " NEtT8EltGER: Oh, I know that quote of his.. womenJl American Politics. CAMPBELL: Women in American Politics.. aow do you evaluate the politic~ effectiveness of women in ol09aniza- t ions? · mtJBERGER: Well, Jchnson asked me to tak ov-er the chairman ship of the council and I said no at first. And then Esther got. on the phone and begged me and I aid# "If I t ke this ov r, it'll be to abolish it beeaus x think we've com far :enough, and we•re on the way, that women don't need a eommies:ion for themselves* I mean, we don't h ve one for men ·" ell, and tben they said, ''We do have one for :inority groups in a way, and I thtnk you should do it .. Sot. I said, "X don•t like.... ., • I me women are people. · at" good for p opla i ·.· good for Wom n .. " But, of cou%ae11 as I 'orked with U. I sa\>1 that t.heze a.J:;e still area a where we need focus .. I just don• t worJ{ ir~ a militant. way.. I couldtl • t work in th Sen te ;.th t way.. I eoultln' t he. • • .• I sometimee think that l qot faxther by th$ men liking me, if that'a tbe wo.rd.-... :t mean that they fo~nd that I wasn't c1l9gressive and I ·was more feminin-e than they thought. But I certainly tnirtk that .everyone to his own deviee to accomplish things. I waon t t very p.opular in a i:eeent. women• s assembly in California ·where I spoke to about a couple· hundred women, hecau$e they wantea me to be more militant.. Thei-e we. e a lot of women ·•s liber_ ti.on groups thaze., But I think th t President Johnson was ao proud of the work of Mrs. Jobnaon tl\at this watt his way of showing that 11 .pproved of women having their own .riqht aJld their own thing and d DEG? SIDE II ~APE I ,. -25- CAMPBELL: In May of 1961 you were in olve · in Senate com mitt e hearing 4 I believe. on the approval of a federal h19b y bill. ~ ur m jor concern w "4th the q;ue ti.on of bill a:r:ds, outdoor advertising. Did you f el that you h d Adminiatr.atiot cooperation in that cru ade? >mtJBERGER1 Not very trong. It as not trong enough~ I C;l1iru we oould have gotten a b tt r bJ.11. Of course, that o.riginated unde.r, I rnean, the oppo sition to it aros un·er s nator [Robert. s.J Kerr of Okla hom • And he was such a power that h really ruine one Senator I know of bee us he so intimi at d him about hi not 90).ng to allow him to have any publie ·works in his stat and th~t sort of thing. ell. it so happened tbat ~he wbol en-te- I leari\ed afterwards, wa holding their breath when I got into a debate with Kerr because, most O·f them wouldn't even tangle with bi.m, the men ouldn't.. so, they just turned lase in th lion's den., and again my fact ,that I didn't cru:e about Bob Kerr doing anything to hurt me or help me stood me in good ste • nd sine then ai es and other han er~ on have to· d e th t Bob Kerr just didn't know how to fi9ht with a lady. And probably l c:id b tter »eeaus I w a lady nd he was en ugh of a Southern g ·ntleman he couldn't talk back the way he m~qht have t a man. So we mad some success. sut then one began to wat.ah for enfo:t"oement.. I felt Udall was not .strong · nou.gh on this and the men down at Public works I wou.ld 90 to see. we had a great to do about passing legislation. And 3.t was li.ke many things that are hap ninq right now in thi dminist.ration on consumers, environm nt and so on ilhat the public has to watch 1. .iforcem nt. And wom n b. ve to watch it o enforce nt of the:t.r rights, I f lt there wa a great weakne s on that. CAMl?BELL: Were you involved with any particular ide at th 4 · t aous in this regard1 in the billboard thing? -26- MEUBERGER: well. mos·tly I worJted directly with Udall.. Why did it oome under hi:m? Interior.. Beautifiea.... ti.on. Because later it oam .. • .. • well, you 11 e, it was.. • • • en did they set , p the D·partntent of T~ansportation? [Alan s .. J Boyd. That was .... CAMPBELL a Later. 'l'bat was in the Johnaon Administration. NEUBERGER: Yes. That was .a new, a new department. It wa the Bureau of Public Roads that I worked with. we went down there to some kin of a ceremony. and had our pi.etur s taken and tbe bill wa · going into ef fect that day. But billboards didn • t .start being torn down round the country and they still .aren't., I c~n·t remember, but I would say that I got very little upport from tbe Administration on aon.sumera , ci.garettes., billboards. But it till didn't bother me because they wertt still going along and, I think- that ev ntaally it would oome to paas. CAMPBELL: There•s an article out !n the new commentary by a lady .named Midge Deeter ealled ••i NEUBERGER: Great. Now if I started to really evaluate it by addimJ up what they did., I don! t know.. su:t I always bad acce&$. of course# Udall •s :office ~ae alwa¥s great to send up the National Park• man when. • • • e wa in our office daily when we worked on the Dunes. Forest Service come . under grieultur , and :t had a lot to o with them. I h d tbe c:.loee t relations with {Orville L.] Freeman. Now the$ _ re cabinet people., but# you know,. wh n you• re dealing with the cabinet you' re de ling with th Ad mini$t~ation ...... mot so in Jolmoon 'e and Kennedy• tim than now. Now, I thin'k. the cabinet doesn't have anything.. aut r,. oh. • .. • tmo w · · Fr dlnan_ Myer P e dman? - 27- CAMPBELL: .Myer Feldman. NEU ERGER: Feldman. He wa very accessible and easy to t lk to. ae•d say, .. ell. I'll come up if it's something that's bothering- you." I had some problems with the l? nt:aqon, and [Robert s.J McNamar was qreat. I could talk to them directly and get support and help. oh, and then, of oourse,. Mik Manatos was m r velous.. He's a good guy. .I'm not sure a · I look back on it ho" mu.oh good he did us. and,- you know, the nitty gritty p rt of it. But we were all kind of feeling our way and I n ver felt that I as po$hed asid'e as I; like I was some pl c s, ;c mean, later in Johnson's ti.me. CJ\MP ELL: It's been suggested that President Kennedy didn't have a tremendously bigb regard for the ability of, perhaps, women in general, but certainly women in politics and was perhaps st.inqy in doling out appointments to deserving women. Could you comment on that? NEUBERGER1 Yes, beca1L e I did a big project on that. I said, and I said to him per onally--occasionally he used to ask us to come down and sit and have tea up in the Yello·w o.z; oval Room upstairs, and we• d just talk, and it was juet a chance to get it out of our systems 1 guess--and I said, uyou •re missing a '.bet,'' because this as when we were ant:.icipatt.ng the • 64 el ct.ion. I rememl:Jer I was down the&e one day~ and I said to him, uMr. Pr-esident, what do you think's going- to be your worst problem in the next ele otion?u Well, he sai Vietnam. WBELL Di d he? NEUBERGER : I was surprised because at tb t time I didn't think of it as. that proble but I eertain+y didntt think it was 9oin9 to last that lonq or b that. important .. CAMPBELL: This wa in 1963 I suppo.se? NEUBERGER: '!'hat would be in--must have be n the summ r, must bave been a matter of a few month • And he said, "Why did you ask me that?" I said, "Because I• m interested in .. your re-eleetion and I just wanted. to know what you thought was the problem." And I said, ••x 'd like to see you give attention to women. You've won them over anyhow, personally, but if you could show that you were interested in women" and so on. You know what I did.:? I went: to every senate office- that is, somebody on my staff did--and said, "The President says he's willing to appoint women, but he doesn't: know who they are or where they are. And you must have had women volunteers and women in your state who've helped you. Will you 9ive me a list?" You know, those lists came in, .reams of them. The only place we didn't get lists of women from was Southern senators. Anyhow, we worked this over and I divided into two c:ateqories. I didn't want just women who were willing to volunteer in workinq in his .campaign. I wanted women who had jobs, even if they were only on eom mi.ssions or advisory positions or that Sfltit of thing,. but we also wanted women who were capable of being appointed to th FTC [Federal Trade commission], women lawye.rs, or women pro fessionals in ~the medical field and so on. My staff worked on that. I guess this aame up before that particular meeting because it was long enough to send it down. And you know, we never heard from it. So, I reactivated it for Johnson. Of oourse, who knows the circumstances that aame up. But women who were deserving of jobs that paid twenty thou sand a yoar were just missing in that Administration, very few of them.. And we were trying to find them. Well, then, I even went so far •• ., • I got consulted by--now, what agency was it? I was on the Banking and currency Committee and it had something to do with hanking because a bank woman I knew in Portland, they even paid her way and brpught her back here. well, I. • • • Years had passed and I decided she wasn't a good person.. But they m de an effort and they tried. But then I ran into this: some I eu99ested per- · onally would ha•e been good, they were established, they h d an apartment, they had furniture. they didn't know whether they were going to like it in Washington, they were flattered and honored, but they didn't really want to come -2·9- her • Some of them by this time,. because they were older and expe:r:ieneea,. • • • some of· them ha husband and they wes:en•t 90i.ng to pick them up and move. And you've got to s·t:art in on some of th se women wh! n they• re young r. Bow did you f in.d the women• s repre•entat 1ve · at DNC [Democratic National C'OmmitteeJ, Margaret Price, to work with? were you involved with her in any wa1'? NEU.SERGER: very little. She wasn't the1,:'kind that was effective in our sta~e, to help me. I could do better on my own. But Oregon is so special beo nae it•s such a small state. And I had personal ac quaintanceship wtth people in every town. I'd taught school any years. I• d 9one to the college and every town had some body who knew me in •ome connection. I'd written for the paper, and then, of eours•.. my husband had t .oo. so we just didn•t have Margaret come out. She was not good for me. CAMPS.ELL: How about the DNC .operation in gene~al? was it a 9ood on.e . NOOBERGER: I wouldn •t be in a good poS' i~ion to judqe he aause I ran a more personal campaiCJn. I don't know. ( CAMPBELL: You mention d a problem with money and that•s always a problem in campaigns. ~aa the DNC useful in 1960 in bringing funds in for your campaign? h"EUBERGERt 'lbe senator!al group was.. They ra!$ed money .. But the National co itte, I don't think, di much. I preaume that somewh re in those records I'd find that t:hey qave me a token. ~e best thing tbey could do for me was send speaker& out like Hilbert Humpbi:ey o~ ~dlai Stevenson. Adlai was my big fish. a re lly got m votas. [.Laughter} He sa:ld to me, "'Mautine. honey. J; • 11 do anythU!g for .you. . at can I do?" ! said. 8 G1v• me one da.y. 11 He arrived in the morninq and we start· d out. we nt. to Reed College. we. went to luncheon group · f · e w nt to the -30- chamb r of commerce. He stayed with me all day. It was the b st thing that ever happened. But the oommittee itself, oh x got annoyed t'li'ith them. They spen,t .so much money sending out beokl,ets of speech suggestions and material. Well. may be some people needed it. Maybe congressmen needed it. I didn • t for the reason that my husband had been here. some. of my staff stayed on here, .not on government payroll but t'hey were around. ~ey had eontaots with the committee. 'rhey knew how to feed me stuff.. In faot. they knew whe..re the material was. · And I just didn ' t need it. and all these pack ages would come, speech on farm supports~ speech on medicare. nd we were already ao far ahead of it that to me it looked like busy work.. I don't know. But I'm a special case.. I don't know. somebody ne-eded it maybe. CAMPBELL: we're involved in a small study of Robert Kennedy's eampaiqn in 1960 and I believe that you were involved in that. could you deseribe your involvement;? NEU'DERGER; I had a touoby situation beaause Mrs .. Green was the nominal cbairman but she didn't really do anytbinq. And I think it was poor and it didn't carry. And then she engaged a ~r,man who used to worts: for me• to go out and be the person on the ground floor. And T-erry [Olsen] . who was in the graduate London School of Economies, but he 's been in my office or in London, and he'S'"'110\t teach ing a-t York University in Toronto. And he just hadn't been in Oregon for so lonq he didn't know it, and he was not a good person to 90. He was a theorist And ! could see it .. And, of course, I was tied down- in Cambridge with Radcliffe business~ I couldn't g-o out there, but I decided to 90 ·out just at primary time. oh, I hardly crossed the state till I knew it: was bad.. I knew it wasn ' t 9oin9 to qo. :',n d bow id I know? I -saw Terry, and l went one day with Marian Schlesin~er and Mrs. Watkins,. who were out working for Bobby,. And we wen.t to a eomm.un i ty where they all knew and those tw0. • • • I was11't9oing to intrudeaand. yet thos$ two women ~!dn•t .gain.one.vote; they didn•t ~ake any itnpresston .. I Just felt s1ck about it:. and I jutst: slipped out the baelt door and left. I knew he wae;S., 't goin~ to malte it. ... 31- You know I want to mention about Jack and then I'm go1,rt9 to have to go.. i s.uppose one of my pleasantest memories of him, though they•:r:e all pleasant,. was when we took him out t.o see the t;ounes. tte was making a swing along the Coa11t. Why was be out there? Anyhow, I said, "Here's my ehance t.e get support an,d we're going to fly over orecgon, although he i$n't 9o!n9 to stop there .. " l flew 01.1t to Seattle with Senatol't Mb:r.se in a: little army jet Lea~.. ,And we met the President in Seattle, and l have beautiful pictures (it was a gorgeous day), and I was out thei:e to greet him.- getting off t.h.e plane with Piei:te Salinger. oh, ;c know why we did4 He was going into Oregon to see an installation at Tongue l?oint, which is an old t'faval base that we wanted taken over fo~ Job Corps oir something. And .Mor$e had OpJ:)Osed.. He thought it should be s.old instead c.>f being t::.ransferred. So we headquartered in Seattle, and we took a heliooptet and fleta over the Tongue Point, !t was just at the mouth of the Columbia River. And Morse and I. ,. .. • Then I had said we• d fly ovel:' the Dunes. wegtl, of course, Morse W$$ alon~ and was he glum. oh boy his nose waa out of joint. We come back to Seattle. We get on the big air, air--what do you call them? Air Force one. NEUBERGER: Air Force One and,. o.h, what a fU1,l.lt2!'ip that was! Jaok was in fine fettle. He was just g~eat, And we had sorne lu.noh and it was just Morse., and Pier.re, and me, and oh,. the fellow from .Massaeh~setts that w~s always along, the olde~ man. <'..AMPBELL: Dave Powers! NEUBERGER; t>ave.. He was gteat. we said to the President he ought to go in and take a nap and w~·d call. • ~ ~ :t said to Pte~re# 11 1'11 call hiltl when we go over the Dunes. '' .An.d we weht dawn on that beau• · tlfu.l Oregon ocu.uit, a·nd "1e got him," and ll~ · l"okedl out; and h~ said ;e~ me, "too~$ like a lot of eana, 11 you know, because it• s not very impressive f ro·m the a i.r 't He wa.$ just great. He wa$ funny,, but now we could say the Pres.ide.nt s.,aw the ounes, and he wa·e impressed. This· beautiful coast should be l saved. -32- And the otheX' thing that was so funny on that trip. I know Morse tbat he would nev r sit a.round wher · I was·. He w pJ:obabl.y sittinq back on the jump eat somewhere having aoffe or a ething with Dve Powers. · d Pierre and--who oul be California that would be down with us becau e w w re qoinq into California and tb y were going up to see a dam site up in the .Shasta area? e d.idn•t have it. Did .e have a Democr tic senator? ['1bomas H ... J rutchel ~as a S .n tor. Who else? t,\ l'tl t. t4 l6 Perhaps, G :vernol' [Edmund G.J Brown. l-mtmERGER.: No. It must have been a Conq.reasman.. AA~ it wa a conqressman from the district that we were 901n9 in. He had flown up to meet us in Seattle. It was juat about the four of ua* e were coming into--I can•t think of the names, Red, net Red sluff. :OUnsmuir. Th.er are tWO Ci ties ~ iqht near 1 tWO towns , to..,. gethe~. I know them so wetl, northern California.. It doe ntt make any difference.. we were coming in to land an tben I said, tt I 'v 9ot to get ba* to oreqon... I can• t go up to the dam site." And it wa · going to be a bard trip. This a just a hort runway• and Pierr came in nd s id, 1'Uav you all CJOt your seat belts tight?' And h.e said, "This run .... way ifJ about three feet ebort for Air Foree one.. e're going tq. have a rou.gh landing." Oh my G~d! we all ja:i t tightened up. we said, 0 l1here~' S 'f cbe President?" nd eo on~ .Mad he 11aid; "I really want you to sit here.. Now don't have this table d:Qwn"--t.n front of us. that we we.re play ·ng cards across. "Put it up. Be prepa~ed for the U-olt .. " nd we b gan. to look out and we were eominq down nd down, and oh lordy, we were $<::a.red.. I w s sitting by the windO\ ..: and w looked out. And we w right to th ~ -en of the runway.. I a that wheel going th n and th~ olevereet turn you ever . aw, and th wing we.r 9cin9 out ovet' aqe bru, ill and pr iri do boles and ever,ytbing els • w 11, ~ere just hr athin9, an Pi.err was just laughing and lau,ghi.ttg and laughing". He atd, "We~l, I'll tell fOu~ e We?i'~ sc-.red. so, while ye>u all we~e down at Tonque Point~ I flew down b re with the pilot and we did it a d he kne exactly w1r t he had to do to m ke it.. But we ecided to give you so J;" beaaus we knet-1 you 1 d e u look a if. we were g-oing riqht off into th 1 canyonq '1 Oh qolly, that wa unnv. -33- But the whole thing waa. alway fun on trip dth him .. y, z · v been on th -m wi. th Johnson. ae 'd come out and talk to u ,. of eour , but it w s never the same fe lin~. '!'he e r the stori that I can te l about Jack K nne y, but peo pl till don't,, they don 't Wlderstand that you could have ad this real aaqttaint nee hip.. And I realiz that I thin that I wa in Congress in Washington tn a very interesting riod, the nd af the Eisenhower regime. th Kenn dy story, th· Johnson stox-y .nd, of course,. the Nixon connection.. B ms Vie Pre ident, and h · s'l>l•ore my husband in, and I knew Mrs .. Ni~on because sbe wae.; presi ent of the, Senate ladies. It wa a p riod, · nd lot of things have happened the•. I m an, ome v ry sad., · nd y t a lot of legislation, a lot of chan es in the oountry. I think it was quite an er • I l v~ry fortunat • That• s one~· reason I like stayin9 with Mr • B~rtlett. w •v · been f.r:iends for twenty y ars. Ana when he used to go to l.aska, she and I j'lst sit here till o in the mox."nin9 talking about Sob in Alaska. CAMPBELL: , 'fl !Ul· you very 1nuoh for talking today.