LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2789
OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 20 November 2013
The Council met at Eleven o'clock
MEMBERS PRESENT:
THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
DR THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT FANG KANG, S.B.S., J.P.
2790 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-HING, B.B.S., M.H.
THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONNY TONG KA-WAH, S.C.
THE HONOURABLE CYD HO SAU-LAN
THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM TAI-FAI, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, B.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KA-LAU
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-CHE
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, B.B.S.
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALAN LEONG KAH-KIT, S.C.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KWOK-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2791
THE HONOURABLE WONG YUK-MAN
THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN
THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING
THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H.
THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING
THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI
THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN
DR THE HONOURABLE KENNETH CHAN KA-LOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, J.P.
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DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI
THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG
THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN
THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN
DR THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.
THE HONOURABLE TANG KA-PIU
DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, J.P.
IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHUNG SHU-KUN, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN
MEMBER ABSENT:
PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P., Ph.D., R.N. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2793
PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:
PROF THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING
PROF THE HONOURABLE K C CHAN, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY
THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND TAM CHI-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS
THE HONOURABLE LAI TUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., I.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
DR THE HONOURABLE KO WING-MAN, B.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH
THE HONOURABLE WONG KAM-SING, J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHAN MO-PO, M.H., J.P. SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT
CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:
MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL
MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS FLORA TAI YIN-PING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS ODELIA LEUNG HING-YEE, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MRS PERCY MA, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL 2794 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members entered the Chamber)
TABLING OF PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table under Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:
Subsidiary Legislation/Instruments L.N. No.
Air Navigation (Hong Kong) Order 1995 (Amendment of Schedule 16) Order 2013 ...... 182/2013
Dangerous Goods (Consignment by Air) (Safety) Regulations (Amendment of Schedule) Order 2013 ...... 183/2013
Statutes of the University of Hong Kong (Amendment) Statute 2013 ...... 184/2013
Other Papers
No. 37 ─ Director of Social Welfare Incorporated Financial statements for the year ended 31 March 2013
No. 38 ─ Hong Kong Science and Technology Parks Corporation Annual Report, Report of the Directors and Financial Statements 2012-2013
No. 39 ─ Hong Kong Productivity Council Annual Report 2012-2013
Report No. 4/13-14 of the House Committee on Consideration of Subsidiary Legislation and Other Instruments
Report of the Bills Committee on Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2795
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions. First question.
Assistance Provided for Fishermen Affected by Marine Works
1. MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): President, in recent years, marine works have commenced one after another in Hong Kong. Following the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge (Hong Kong Section) (HK-ZMB) project that is underway, other marine works will be launched soon. Some fishermen have relayed to me that the marine works in recent years have resulted in a shrinkage of fishing grounds and affected their livelihood. They have also pointed out that the Government's current package of ex-gratia allowance (EGA) has not fully reflected the fishermen's losses arising from a permanent or temporary loss of fishing grounds as a result of marine works. In addition, upon the completion of some marine works, the Government has set up restricted areas near the worksites (such as the Hong Kong International Airport) to which vessel entry is prohibited, but has not compensated the fishermen in this regard. Quite a number of fishermen have pointed out that the incessant launching of marine works by the Government has rendered the fisheries industry unable to have sustainable development, and breached the pledge of the Chief Executive in his election manifesto to promote the development of the agricultural and fisheries industry. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it conducted in the past five years comprehensive or localized surveys on the fisheries resources in Hong Kong waters (in particular the waters to the west of the New Territories) to compile statistics on the area of Hong Kong waters (away from fairways) that is actually available for fishing each year and on the fisheries resources in various stretches of waters, and to assess the impacts of the marine works to be launched in the next five years on the ecological environment of fishing grounds, and so on; if it did, of the details; if not, the reasons for that, and whether it will collect such data and information as soon as possible;
(b) whether it has any measure to increase fisheries resources, such as placing more artificial reefs in the sea, restocking, and adjusting the proposed policy on marine reserve, and so on, so as to protect 2796 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
fishermen's livelihood and promote the sustainable development of the fisheries industry; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(c) given that the restricted areas set up by the authorities in some waters have led to a shrinkage of fishing grounds, whether the authorities will review the scope of compensation covered by the existing EGA package and make compensation to the affected fishermen; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, my reply to Mr Steve HO's question is as follows:
(a) The Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department (AFCD) conducts surveys on fisheries resources in Hong Kong waters since 2010 to monitor the fisheries resources in Hong Kong waters and evaluate the effectiveness of the trawl ban. Introduced in late 2012, the trawl ban will change the baseline conditions of the existing marine and fisheries resources in Hong Kong. The AFCD considers it necessary to capture data over a longer period of time for meaningful analysis and study.
As regards fishing grounds in Hong Kong, according to the data released by the Survey and Mapping Office of the Lands Department in 2012, the total sea area of Hong Kong is 1 650.60 sq km. Fishing is prohibited in areas such as principal fairways, public bathing beaches and typhoon shelters, covering about 34 sq km. The remaining stretches of waters are available for fishing according to the relevant law.
Marine works that are being developed or under planning include dredging and reclamation to the south western coast of Shek Kwu Chau for the Integrated Waste Management Facilities Phase I, a third runway at the airport, and the Tung Chung New Town Development Extension. They are concentrated in the Western Waters of Hong Kong and cover an area of 7.96 sq km.
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Where a marine works project is a Designated Project specified by the Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance, the project proponent must carry out statutory Environmental Impact Assessments to assess the negative impacts of the project on the marine environment and fisheries resources. He is also obliged to take mitigation measures to minimize and keep within acceptable limits the environmental impacts arising from the works and operations.
(b) Trawling activities in Hong Kong waters have been banned since the end of 2012. The registration of local fishing vessels is under way to control fishing effort and prohibit non-local fishing vessels from engaging in fishing activities in Hong Kong waters. The measures will help reduce fishing effort in Hong Kong waters and help rehabilitate local fisheries resources. Looking ahead, we are making preparations for designating fisheries protection areas (FPAs) to protect important fish nursery and spawning grounds in Hong Kong waters. We will collect comprehensive data to carry out analysis. Which areas should be designated as FPAs will be decided after thorough consultation with the trade. Appropriate management measures will be devised for each FPA.
Besides, the AFCD has been implementing an artificial reefs programme to promote the growth and development of various marine organisms, and provide food, protection and shelter for fish. At present, some 179 000 cu m of artificial reefs have been deployed at suitable locations such as the marine parks. Over 220 species of fish have been found using the reefs for feeding, shelter, spawning and nursery. The Government will continue to monitor the situation on the ground and consider the deployment of additional artificial reefs at suitable locations.
Restocking is one of the options recommended by the Committee on Sustainable Fisheries to enhance fisheries resources. It involves the release of fish fry or juveniles of other marine animals into the wild to enhance and restore fisheries resources. The planning and implementation of any restocking programme require careful deliberation of matters including the choice of fish species, their health status, adaptation arrangements, and so on. The process is 2798 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
essential for collecting information necessary for restocking and assessing its feasibility in Hong Kong waters as a means to enhance fisheries resources. The AFCD will continue to study the related technologies.
The Government will also continue to keep the existing marine resources under monitoring, carry out research and take appropriate measures to conserve marine resources.
(c) Fishermen affected by marine works are in principle not entitled to statutory compensation since they have no legal rights over the relevant waters. Nonetheless, the Government has all long been granting EGA to fishermen affected by marine works to help them re-align their operations. Restricted areas that are set up to ensure the safety of marine channels and aviation safety generally do not cause additional adverse impact on fisheries resources. Hence, EGA is not payable under the current policy.
MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): President, many fishermen are actually not quite happy with the EGA package because it is to a certain extent forcing the fishermen to give up fishing, and even though they can remain in the fishing industry, the following situation will arise, and I would like to know what the Government will do to resolve this: There are two tables of food, and the food on one of the tables will no longer be provided for consumption and so, the people who are eating at this table are each given $500 so that they can eat at the other table, but the people who are eating at the other table are not given any money and yet, they have to share half of their food with other people. In view of this situation, what will the Government do to improve and reform the EGA, so that the people who are eating at the other table can also be given protection?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, it is rather difficult to answer this supplementary question but I hope that Members can look at it from an overall perspective. Hong Kong has vast expanses of waters and if the existing strategy can effectively protect our waters or at least enhance the overall fisheries resources in Hong Kong waters, that is, if we can "make the pie bigger", so to speak, I believe all fishermen in Hong Kong will benefit from it.
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MR VINCENT FANG (in Cantonese): President, in the last term of the Legislative Council, a law was enacted to ban fishing in some waters of Hong Kong. In this connection, the Finance Committee approved the provision of funding for granting a certain amount of compensation to people affected by this law who no longer wish to engage in the fishing industry, provided that they surrender their licences to the Government. May I ask the Secretary how many licences of fishing vessels have been surrendered and how many fishing vessels have continued to engage in fishing since the introduction of this scheme? Is there an increase in the fisheries production in Hong Kong waters? Can those fishermen who remain in the industry make their ends meet?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, there are about 4 000 fishing vessels in Hong Kong. I think Mr Vincent FANG was referring to the ban on trawling in local waters. As the licence surrender scheme is in progress, we do not have the figures for the time being, but some 800 fishermen have already taken up the EGA.
MR CHRISTOPHER CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Government uses the homeports of fishermen as the basis for granting the EGA, and the homeports of fishermen are determined according to the distribution of fishing vessels in various ports in a survey conducted in 1991. Will the Secretary tell us if he knows how many fishermen have retired or passed away or even moved to different ports over the past two decades? Do the authorities know the details of these changes? Moreover, is it obsolete and outdated for the Government to use data collected some 20 years ago as the basis?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, rightly as Mr CHUNG has said, the amount of EGA granted to fishermen affected by past marine works was calculated on the basis of the data collected in the Port Survey conducted in 1989-1991. The 1989-1991 Port Survey was conducted in the early 1990s before a number of major marine infrastructure projects were launched. In other words, the survey was conducted before fishermen were affected by major marine works. Generally speaking, the amount of compensation was calculated with reference to the fisheries resources and distribution at the time. The use of these data as the basis for calculation is generally acceptable.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHUNG, what is your point?
MR CHRISTOPHER CHUNG (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my question. Over the past two decades, a lot of small- or large-scale works have been carried out, such as the third runway at the airport which is underway now, but the authorities are still using the data of 20 years ago as the basis. Is this outdated? Is there a need to conduct a review? He was talking about the situation back in the 1990s, without mentioning the present situation.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHUNG, I heard clearly just now that the Secretary already explained why the Government is still using the data of those years as the basis now. If you consider it unreasonable, you can raise your point on other occasions.
MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): President, the agricultural and fisheries industry has been hard hit over the years and is shrinking gradually. Although the industry has made great efforts to protect their right to make a living, they still cannot fight against the pressure of environmental protection, the impact of marine works and the destruction caused by policies.
In part (b) of the main reply, the Secretary admitted that all the measures have created an impact on the fishing activities of the fisheries industry but the authorities are carrying out work to collect data for the purpose of conducting an analysis to see how assistance can be provided to them. But in this respect, we can see that there is a time gap. The area that fishermen are allowed to operate is getting smaller and smaller and no one knows when the Government will complete the study but in the interim, the Government is not going to make compensation to the fishermen for their losses arising from the marine works. As such, fishermen can only halt their operation and are hence deprived of the means to make a living since they are living from hand to mouth. How can the Secretary help them switch to another industry in a short time? Besides, does the Government have any long-term planning to enable the continued operation of this industry?
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SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, pursuant to the recommendations of the Committee on Sustainable Fisheries, the Government has been carrying out work gradually in accordance with the recommendations. Among these recommendations, the first and foremost objective is to protect the overall fisheries resources in Hong Kong and this merits our attention. The overall fish catch in Hong Kong is ever decreasing, and one of the major reasons for this is over-fishing, which means using non-environmentally-friendly fishing methods, thus resulting in a decline of the overall fish catch. Therefore, insofar as the current measures are concerned, it is most important to ban trawling in Hong Kong waters particularly, for this can protect the fisheries resources in Hong Kong waters and through the use of other methods, such as artificial reefs that I mentioned earlier on, the fisheries resources in Hong Kong waters can be stimulated. This is the most important point.
Certainly, there are also other measures, such as the FPAs suggested by us. We will continue to conduct consultation and consider the views of all sides before implementation. Meanwhile, we will encourage fishermen to use other sustainable fishing methods.
President, apart from the trawl ban, in the 1 000-odd sq km of Hong Kong waters, there are actually only 34 sq km of waters where fishing is really banned. So, we do encourage fishermen to adopt other methods, rather than towing a trawl close to the seabed.
Moreover, in respect of the mariculture industry, after conducting an assessment and given that the moratorium on the issue of new licence for mariculture operations has been in force for some time, we can issue new licences for fish culture zones if they can meet the requirements. In this connection, after consulting the relevant panel of the Legislative Council some time ago, new licences will be issued on a pilot basis. We do have many other strategies, but let me stop here for the time being.
DR ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): President, some fishermen affected by the HK-ZMB project have complained for many times that the EGA is provided only to vessels less than 15 m in length but in fact, with regard to marine works carried out before 2011, many vessels exceeding 15 m in length were also operating in the affected waters and they are nevertheless not given compensation. Besides, some affected fisherman have complained that it is 2802 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 generally the practice of the Government to consider how the allowance should be granted only after the completion of the works and so, their losses are not compensated timely. For instance, the fishermen affected by the HK-ZMB project have so far not got any compensation since the beginning of the works. In view of these two points, will the Government consider reviewing the existing mechanism to truly protect the livelihood of the fishermen?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, Dr QUAT's supplementary question consists of two points. As the first point is more of a technical nature, I think it is a decision made by professional departments in consultation with technical personnel and experts.
As for the second point, I can tell Members that the fishermen affected by the HK-ZMB project have actually been receiving notification one after another of the arrangements made for them to apply for EGA.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second question.
Manpower of Immigration Department Performing Immigration Control Duties
2. MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported that on the evening of 27 October this year, a large number of departing visitors were stranded at the Shenzhen Bay Control Point due to inadequate manpower of the Immigration Department (ImmD) performing immigration control duties at that control point, and the waiting time for departure clearance of these visitors was as long as four hours. It has also been reported that there has been a shortfall of manpower in the ImmD for a long time, resulting in exceedingly long working hours of the front-line staff, compression of their rest breaks and accumulation of the untaken leave balance of many staff members reaching nearly the ceiling. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the total number and annual growth rate of staff of the ImmD, and among them, the number and annual growth rate of staff responsible for performing immigration control duties, in each year since 2003; LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2803
how such growth rates compare with those of visitors coming to Hong Kong in the same period;
(b) of the duty hours and rest break arrangements of ImmD staff performing immigration control duties; the situation of untaken leave accumulated by such staff in the past three years, and how the authorities handled cases in which the accumulated untaken leave balance of ImmD staff had reached the ceiling but the staff members concerned were unable to take leave due to operational needs; and
(c) given the continuous increase in the number of visitors coming to Hong Kong in recent years and the successive commissioning of the Kai Tak Cruise Terminal in the middle of this year, the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link in late 2015, the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge in 2016 and the Liantang Control Point in 2018, whether the authorities will, in response to the increase in the number of boundary control points, expand the staffing establishment of the ImmD and enhance the efficiency of immigration control work to alleviate the work pressure of front-line staff?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, Hong Kong is a very popular international trade and tourism hub. The overall volume of inbound and outbound passenger traffic via various immigration control points has kept on rising in the past decade. To maintain quality and effective immigration clearance service, the ImmD has been closely monitoring passenger traffic growth and strived to strengthen its manpower and other resources for control points in accordance with the established mechanism as necessary. The performance pledge of the ImmD for land boundary control points is to clear 98% of Hong Kong residents within 15 minutes and 95% of visitors within 30 minutes. Whilst the ImmD has been able to meet the performance pledge in overall terms, some visitors may experience a longer waiting time for clearance due to the huge number of passengers travelling through control points during peak hours.
To cope with the continuous upsurge of immigration control workload, the ImmD has all along adopted a multi-pronged approach by flexibly implementing various measures to enhance clearance efficiency and shorten visitors' waiting 2804 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 time. Efforts have also been made to alleviate the work pressure of front-line staff as far as possible.
The Administration's reply to various parts of the question raised by Mr YIU Si-wing is as follows：
(a) The ImmD currently has an establishment of 6 954 posts. When compared with the establishment 10 years ago, that is, 2003, there has been an increase of 884 posts in total, representing a growth rate of 14.6%. The current establishment of front-line uniformed staff responsible for performing immigration control duties at various control points is 3 344 posts, which is 750 more than that in 2003, representing a growth rate of 28.9%. In other words, front-line uniformed staff responsible for performing immigration control duties accounted for 85% of the increase in the establishment of the ImmD over the past 10 years. For details on the establishment, strength and annual growth rate, please refer to the Annex.
As for passenger traffic, the overall inbound passenger traffic was 134 million (48 million of which were visitors). The growth rate over the 10-year period was 76%. (15 million of which were visitors). In 2012, the overall inbound passenger traffic was 134 million (48 million of which were visitors). The growth rate over the 10-year period was 76%.
(b) The conditioned hours for Immigration Service staff are 44 gross per week. To cater for operational needs of different control points such as passenger traffic volume, front-line staff at control points are required to work in shifts, which are broadly divided into morning, mid-day and night shifts. As the operation of different control points varies, the duration of different shifts may not be the same. In any case, to ensure that staff have sufficient rest time, a minimum 12-hour interval is usually provided between shifts. The management also ensures that the gross conditioned hours will be adhered to in compiling duty rosters.
Front-line staff at control points are usually given a rest break every two hours during their duty. Those who work for seven full hours LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2805
or more are entitled to a one-hour meal break in accordance with the Civil Service Regulations. Generally speaking, front-line staff will have a day off after every three to four days of work.
The ImmD attaches great importance to leave benefits of the staff, who are encouraged and arranged to take their leave provided that the operational needs of public service are met. An immigration staff member is provided with at least one continuous vacation leave period in a year. A higher priority to take vacation leave would be given to immigration staff with leave balance close to the maximum accumulation limit or those who have other special needs. Such arrangement ensures that no immigration staff would lose their accumulated leave.
The average accumulated leave balance of ImmD front-line staff has shown a decreasing trend over the past three years. As at 1 September of the year, front-line staff had an average accumulated leave of 99 days in 2011, 93 days in 2012 and 90 days in 2013. The management of the ImmD will take into consideration leave arrangements for staff in the course of manpower deployment.
(c) In the coming years, several new control points will commence operation. The Administration will consider the requirement for additional staffing under the existing mechanism. Separately, to cope with the substantial and ongoing increase of passengers, the ImmD will continue to carry out various measures, including improving the existing facilities of control points, making more flexible deployment of manpower, streamlining its workflow and taking further advantage of information technology, and so on, with a view to shortening passenger clearance time and alleviating the work pressure of front-line staff. The relevant measures carried out in recent years, such as the Frequent Visitor e-Channel service and non-stamping arrangement for visitors, have shown positive results. We will continue to closely monitor the effectiveness of the above measures and consider the need for manpower and other resources in the light of the passenger traffic growth.
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Annex
The establishment and growth rates of staff of the ImmD in 2003 to 2013 (as at 1 October each year) are tabulated as follows:
The Compared with Compared with establishment of Total the same period the same period Year uniformed staff establishment of the previous of the previous in the Control year (%) year (%) Branch 2003 6 070 - 2 594 - 2004 6 133 +1.04% 2 706 +4.32% 2005 6 142 +0.15% 2 753 +1.74% 2006 6 178 +0.59% 2 728 -0.91% 2007 6 536 +5.79% 3 218 +17.96% 2008 6 581 +0.69% 3 227 +0.28% 2009 6 530 -0.77% 3 243 +0.50% 2010 6 613 +1.27% 3 136 -3.30%* 2011 6 651 +0.57% 3 146 +0.32% 2012 6 816 +2.48% 3 239 +2.96% 2013 6 954 +2.02% 3 344 +3.24% Comparison of 2013 with +884 +14.56% +750 +28.91% 2003
Note:
* Since the number of passengers did not reach the expected figures when Lok Ma Chau Spur Line and Shenzhen Bay Control Points first came into operation, the establishment was suitably reduced.
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary said in the main reply that the performance pledge of the ImmD is to clear just 95% of visitors within 30 minutes and if we do a calculation on the basis of the 48.6 million passenger trips made by inbound visitors last year, the remaining 5% of visitors not covered by the performance pledge numbered millions. On the issue of dealing with more than a million people clearing the control points, may I ask the Secretary if guidelines have been drawn up to require various immigration control points to set standards on the maximum waiting time during the peak LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2807 periods of cross-boundary passenger traffic? If yes, what are the details; if not, what are the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Why do we adopt 95% as the performance pledge? Because as far as we know, often cross-boundary passenger traffic concentrates at certain periods of time, so the so-called peak periods occur. It is undeniable that during the peak periods, the waiting time for visitors will certainly be long and nearly all immigration control authorities in the world make the same performance pledges.
As regards Mr YIU's question on whether it is necessary for the ImmD to introduce special measures for the peak periods, it is true that the ImmD would make arrangements in relation to the duty rosters of its staff. As I said in the main reply, the shifts are divided into morning, mid-day and night shifts but within these three shifts, there are further subdivisions because we find that according to past experience, on each day or in each period, passenger traffic would be heavier during some hours, so peak periods occur. When scheduling duty rosters, the ImmD will arrange for more colleagues to perform duties during the peak periods. In other words, we do not make arrangements for the morning, mid-day and night shifts in a uniform way by deploying the same number of colleagues to perform duties. When the passenger traffic is light, the ImmD would arrange for fewer colleagues to perform duties but during peak periods, more colleagues will be on duty. Regarding the shifts, sometimes two shifts may overlap, for example, suppose the peak occurs at 5 pm each day, some colleagues on some shifts will stop working only at 6 pm or 7 pm, whereas the colleagues on some shifts will start working at 4 pm, so the overlapping time between the two shifts is intended to cope with the surge in passenger traffic during the peak period.
Having said that, there can still be some unforeseeable circumstances. The evening of 27 October mentioned by Mr YIU Si-wing just now is a case in point. In such cases, we will adopt temporary deployment measures at the land boundary crossings. Since fixed numbers of colleagues are on duty at the several land boundary crossings in Hong Kong, in the event of a sudden surge in passenger traffic at a particular boundary crossing, we will deploy some of our colleagues from nearby crossings immediately to provide reinforcement there. For example, on some major festive days, since we anticipate heavy passenger 2808 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 traffic during certain periods on such days at not just one crossing but a number of crossings, how would the ImmD cope with this? Generally speaking, since the headquarters and other offices would not operate on major festive days, we would request colleagues from the headquarters to work overtime at those crossings. In addition, the ImmD also has a task force which, apart from being responsible for taking everyday law-enforcement actions, is also flexibly deployed to provide assistance during peak periods.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YIU, what is your point?
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. What I actually wanted to ask is: Is there any standard set on the clearance time during peak periods? The performance pledge is to clear 95% of visitors within 30 minutes, in that case, has a maximum waiting time been set for the clearance of visitors during peak periods?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Secretary please answer?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): We have not set a standard waiting time for peak periods because our performance pledge is an overall pledge. During peak periods, we will adopt the measures mentioned by me just now to clear the queues as quickly as possible. Of course, we will also introduce some measures in the future. Perhaps let me give a further explanation after other Members have asked their questions.
MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): The Secretary pointed out in part (a) of the main reply that the growth rate of the establishment of front-line uniformed staff was 28.9%, whereas the growth rate of inbound passenger traffic was 76% over a 10-year period. If we simply look at the figures, we would readily come to the conclusion that the manpower is insufficient. However, as we all know, for some time, e-Channels or other measures have been introduced to ease the pressure. May I ask the Secretary if the Government has assessed by how much the pressure has been eased after the adoption of e-Channels and other measures, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2809 so that we can assess whether or not the manpower is actually insufficient and examine how additional manpower can be recruited?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Due to the inevitable gap between the increase in the number of visitors and the measures introduced by us, we have not carried out any particularly detailed or specific assessment because no matter how we try persistently to catch up, we may still be unable to catch up with the increase. However, I can provide some general information in response to Mr MA's concern. In the early years after the reunification, the number of Hong Kong residents visiting the Mainland rose drastically. At that time, the phenomenon of huge crowds waiting for clearance at the control points, in particular, at the Lo Wu Boundary Crossing, occurred …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, since 10 other Members are waiting for their turn to ask questions, I hope you could give as concise replies as possible.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): All right. In response to this situation, we introduced e-Channels for use by the public. Basically, Hong Kong residents using e-channels do not have to queue up anymore nowadays. Subsequently, due to the significant increase in the number of visitors, we also introduced e-Channels for frequent visitors. At present, there are a total of 102 such e-Channels and we also plan to increase their number step by step.
Let me cite a figure to explain the reason for increasing their number. At present, 20% of inbound Mainland visitors already use the automated e-Channels for frequent visitors and the time it takes them is just one third of the time needed for clearance at conventional counters and we find that the queues have really been shortened. In addition, we also have a plan to continue to increase their number by adding 21 e-Channels next year and a further 158 in 2016. The total number will increase from 102 now to 281 in the future. This kind of e-Channels do not necessarily have to be installed at Lo Wu, rather, they will be found at various boundary crossings, including that at the airport, for use by a large number of inbound visitors.
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MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): The efficiency of the ImmD is evident to all and it has won the praise of outbound Hong Kong residents. We also take pride in having such an excellent disciplined force in Hong Kong. However, we can see, and the Secretary also said just now, that to address the problem of such a heavy workload for front-line uniformed officers, the authorities have also adopted some measures to enable them to take a break every two hours, but as far as I know, the implementation of such measures is actually unsatisfactory because the passenger traffic is far too heavy. In particular, the Secretary mentioned in the main reply that compared with 2003, the number of front-line officers has increased only by 750 but as pointed out by Mr MA Fung-kwok just now, the overall inbound passenger traffic has increased significantly from 76 million to 134 million now. In view of this, may I ask the Secretary if there is any longer-term plan to solve the present problem of insufficient manpower for the ImmD? I can see and also know that some female officers have to bring along nappies, just in case they cannot leave their posts to go to the washroom. Is there any long-term plan in this regard?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): I thank Mr IP for his concern. I agree very much that colleagues in the ImmD, in particular, those responsible for immigration control in the front line, work very hard. Although we would try our best to arrange for a break for them every two hours, if there are too many visitors, it is not possible to give them any break because we are service-oriented. In the long run, I think there are at least two feasible courses of action. The first is to introduce automation as far as possible. Just now, I introduced to Members the e-Channels for frequent visitors and they are very useful because one e-Channel is equal to three conventional counters. Moreover, the number of e-Channels can be increased. At the existing control points, three e-Channels can be installed in the space for two conventional counters, in other words, the facilities for control point clearance can be increased on the one hand, and the manpower can be reduced on the other. Under the present establishment, one colleague can monitor five e-Channels, whereas in the case of conventional counters, five colleagues are needed for five counters. In addition, the efficiency of e-Channels is three times greater than conventional counters, so this is one of the long-term measures.
The second course of action is, of course, to put in place additional immigration control points. Mr MA also said just now that at present, we have LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2811 put in place new control points, for example, the control point at the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge and the Liantang Boundary Control Point now under construction. In the long run, increasing the number of immigration control points can serve to divert passenger traffic.
I think that the manpower is indeed stretched but in the long term, we need to solve the problem through planning and we must make visitors learn to use the e-Channels like Hong Kong residents do, instead of merely relying on increasing the manpower. We must use new technology and machines to cope with this problem.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): Recently, our labour union has received views frequently from staff members of the ImmD, who said that because visitors had to wait for an excessively long time, front-line officers were often verbally abused. They feel that they are absolutely helpless and do not deserve such treatment and this also affects their morale. If we simply look at the figures provided by the Secretary, a decade ago, each front-line officer has to handle on average 29 000 passenger trips clearing the control points but by this year, that is, in 2013, despite an increase in manpower, each officer has to handle 40 000 passenger trips clearing the control points, so the workload is very heavy …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please ask your supplementary question.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): The direction of the Secretary to increase the manpower of front-line officers is correct but obviously, the vigour is not enough because the accumulated leave …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWOK, please ask your supplementary question immediately.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): All right. Although the average accumulated leave balance has decreased from 99 days to 90 days, it is still on 2812 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 the high side. May I ask what specific figures can the Secretary provide to us in respect of the recruitment plan for the next three years?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): I think it is not just me and Members here but also all members of the Hong Kong public will apprectiate how great the work pressure of front-line officers in the ImmD is. As regards increasing the manpower, the Government has a mechanism and each year, we also bid for resources under the existing allocation mechanism and each year, our able was successful. As Mr KWOK Wai-keung said just now, it is true that the number of inbound visitors has increased but we hope very much to approach this matter from the angle of e-Channels because so long as we can encourage visitors to use e-Channels, the problem will be alleviated to some extent. Therefore, we must adopt a two-pronged approach.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 22 minutes on this question and the time limit for each question has been exceeded. The nine Members who are still waiting to ask questions can only follow this matter up on other occasions.
Third question.
Parking Spaces for Commercial Vehicles
3. MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): President, some members of the transport industry have relayed to me that as parking spaces for commercial vehicles (including coaches and articulated vehicles, and so on) are in short supply in various districts at present, such vehicles are forced to be parked in other districts or remote districts. The trips made by drivers to park and retrieve their vehicles are very time-consuming, incur extra fuel expenditure, add to the road traffic loads and cause air pollution. They have also pointed out that a site at King Yip Street in Kwun Tong was originally planned for the provision of a multi-storey car park for private cars and commercial vehicles, but the project was shelved as the departments concerned considered it not economical after assessment. The site has been left idle or leased on short-term leases for more than 10 years. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
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(a) other than the aforesaid site, of the land lots that have been planned for use as sites for multi-storey car parks but the projects have yet to be implemented, and in respect of each of such land lots, the location, floor area of the proposed car park, the types and numbers of vehicles which can be parked there, the reasons why such projects have yet to be implemented, as well as the current position regarding the car park development projects;
(b) whether, in considering whether or not to implement a multi-storey car park project, the authorities will take into account, apart from the rate of return of the project, the overall benefits that the car park may bring to the community upon completion, including the possible resultant reduction in the social costs arising from indiscriminate parking of commercial vehicles; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(c) as I have learnt that several temporary car parks for commercial vehicles within the Kai Tak Development Area will cease operation following the progressive implementation of the Kai Tak Development, of the measures of the authorities to prevent the vehicles concerned from being forced to be parked indiscriminately at the roadside in future?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): Good morning, President, Honourable Members. The Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines (HKPSG) sets out the Government's guidelines for determining various land uses and facilities, as well as the requirements for deciding the scale and location of land uses and facilities. Chapter 8 of the HKPSG covers the standards and guidelines for various transport facilities, including public parking facilities (such as commercial vehicle parking).
The Transport and Housing Bureau is responsible for planning and improving the transport infrastructure in Hong Kong. Under the Bureau's charge, the Transport Department (TD) has been monitoring the demand and supply of commercial vehicle parking spaces in all districts across the territory, and keeping in touch with the District Councils and the industry in order to respond to the demand for commercial vehicle parking spaces through short and long-term measures. For short-term measures, the Government will provide on-street parking spaces and allow temporary car parks to operate at sites with no 2814 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 immediate development plans by means of short term tenancies (STTs), provided that these measures do not affect road safety and other road users. For long-term measures, the Government will plan car parking facilities in accordance with the HKPSG, such as requiring the provision of a specified number of commercial vehicle parking spaces in industrial/commercial building developments and zoning some sites for developing multi-storey car parks. Dedicated coach parking facilities should also be provided at or near major tourist attractions for serving as holding facilities for coaches waiting to pick up tour groups.
Regarding the question raised by Mr Frankie YICK, I have consulted the Transport and Housing Bureau and my reply is as follows:
(a) There are five sites that have been planned as stand-alone car parks but are yet to be implemented in various districts of Hong Kong. Their details are set out at Annex. For the King Yip Street site, it is zoned for "Other Specified Use (Lorry Park)". The Bureau indicates that since there is still a surplus of parking spaces in Kwun Tong, and currently there is no plan to develop the site into a dedicated lorry park. A public car park is currently operating on the site by means of a STT, offering 74 and 140 parking spaces for lorries and private cars respectively.
(b) According to the HKPSG, when determining the appropriate level of provision of parking facilities, the TD will consider the following factors: availability of public transport services in the vicinity; availability of public car park(s) in the vicinity; proximity to and quality of pedestrian access linking railway stations and other major public transport interchanges; traffic conditions of local road networks; and parking demand and supply condition in the vicinity. For any particular on-street location or off-street development, the TD will consider all of the above factors and decide on the appropriate level of provision of parking facilities. The Bureau will determine appeals, raised by other departments or agencies against the decision of the TD, if any.
Regarding the implementation of individual multi-storey public car parks for private vehicles and motor cycles, the Bureau indicates that the Government will consider a number of factors, such as the demand and supply of car parks in that district (including the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2815
utilization of indoor car parks in that district), the estimated utilization rate of multi-storey car parks, the level of public support towards the proposed car park and whether the construction of multi-storey car park will induce more traffic flow and cause congestion, and so on. In general, new multi-storey public car parks should be constructed by the private sector, where the building and operation of such public car park should be regarded as commercial decisions. However, in exceptional circumstances where there is a serious shortfall of parking spaces and private sector participation is not forthcoming, multi-storey public car parks may be developed through the public works programme. For better land utilization, multi-storey public car parks should normally be incorporated as part of the joint user development.
(c) As mentioned in part (a) of the reply, some car-park projects in individual districts have not yet been implemented. If there are suitable sites in individual districts that have not been included in any long-term planning, the Lands Department (LandsD) may consider the views of the TD in granting the sites for parking purpose by means of STTs. If such STT site is required for implementing long-term uses and the TD confirms the need of car parking spaces in that district, the LandsD will consider if there are alternative temporary sites suitable for parking purpose. Generally speaking, commercial vehicles will also make use of the on-street parking spaces.
With respect to the Kai Tak Development Area (KTDA), the TD has been monitoring the car parking situation. As we understand, there are currently four public car parks operating under STT within the KTDA, providing about 1 600 parking spaces. In order to release the development potential and facilitate the district transformation of Kowloon East, the Energizing Kowloon East Office of the Development Bureau is working closely with relevant departments to review the government sites within Kowloon East that have not been developed or put to optimal use. When considering any change of land use, the Government will explore different options to ensure sufficient public facilities to be reprovisioned or provided within the district when public facilities are involved (including lorry park(s)).
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Annex Planned but not yet developed stand-alone public car parks
Approx. Outline Area of Types of Number of Zoning Plan Land Use Implementation Location parking Vehicles Parking (OZP) Zoning programme and progress facilities allowed Spaces Number (sq m) No. 128 Sai Mong Kok "Other 4 600 Private Not The site is currently used Yee Street OZP Specified car/Lorry specified as the Mong Kok Office of No. S/K3/30 Uses" the Water Supplies annotated Department. It is "Multi-storey proposed for development Car/Lorry of a public transport Park" terminus with commercial uses. Detailed planning study and design will commence in early 2014. Appropriate number of car parking spaces will be included in accordance with the study result. King Yip Cha Kwo "Other 6 000 Lorry Not The site is currently used Street Ling, Yau Specified specified as temporary car park. Tong, Lei Yue Uses" The Explanatory Notes of Mun OZP annotated OZP does not state that the No. S/K15/20 "Lorry Park" site is to be built in form of a multi-storey car park. Northwest of Tai Tam and "Government, 20 000 Private Not The site is reserved on the Shek O Beach Shek O OZP Institution or car/Coach specified OZP to cater for the No. S/H18/10 Community" demand caused by the (G/IC) increasing number of visitors in the Shek O area. According to the TD, there are many car parking spaces nearby. Stanley Beach Stanley OZP "Other 6 200 Private car/ 140 spaces The site is reserved on the Road/Stanley No. S/H19/10 Specified Motorcycle for private OZP for development of a Village Road Uses" cars and multi-storey public car annotated 10 spaces park with a maximum "Multi-storey for motor- building height of Public Car cycles 4-storeys and 15 m. Park to Detailed design is Include Bus underway. Further public Terminus" consultation will be and "G/IC" conducted. Junction of Cha Kwo "G/IC" 3 900 Coach/Lorry Not This site is reserved on the Ko Chiu Road Ling, Yau specified OZP. According to the and Lei Yue Tong, Lei Yue TD, there are still Mun Road Mun OZP vacancies in other car No. S/K15/20 parks of the district.
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MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): President, I am pleased to note from the Government's main reply that car parking facilities have been confirmed as part of the transport infrastructure. However, it is mentioned in the second paragraph of part (b) of the main reply that, according to the Government's current policy, new multi-storey public car parks should be constructed by the private sector, where the building and operation of such public car parks should be regarded as commercial decisions. If this is the case, returns must be calculated. In fact, my original question is: If the payback period cannot be calculated, will the Government have a responsibility to provide car parks as part of the transport infrastructure? This is the first point. Second, it appears that car parks for articulated vehicles are not yet available in Hong Kong. Has the Government given any consideration to this?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, excuse me, I cannot quite catch the second part of the supplementary question. What kind of car parks is not yet available?
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): Car parks for articulated vehicles, that is, vehicles for hauling containers.
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, parking spaces are actually regarded as part of the transport infrastructure. As I mentioned in the main reply just now, the TD will keep a close watch on the car parking situation in each district during planning and practical enforcement of specific policies.
Land resources are very precious in Hong Kong. As I mentioned just now, some sites are planned for the provision of multi-storey car parks, and these sites are very often situated in the urban areas. Hence, according to the Government's current policy stance, if these sites can be used for other better development purposes, then in the requirements imposed on project development, the Government will specify in the Conditions of Sale the provision of a certain number of parking spaces in the car park. This will serve the two-folded purpose of making the optimal use of land on the one hand, and address the provision of parking spaces on the other.
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Concerning the second point raised by Mr YICK in his supplementary question regarding the provision of car parks for large commercial vehicles, a lot of space has to be reserved for the construction of such car parks in terms of building height and access. We estimate that a large area is required for the construction of stand-alone multi-storey car parks for lorries or large commercial vehicles. Furthermore, from the angle of land utilization, the construction scale should be quite big to provide a large number of parking spaces. In fact, suitably located and large sites which can be used for the development of stand-alone multi-storey commercial car parks are very scarce. This is why the Government has not built this type of car parks. Nor does it have any plans to build such car parks on the site at King Yip Street in Kwun Tong or other sites.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): President, we can note from the Secretary's main reply that, in Kowloon West as a whole, only a new car park will be built at Sai Yee Street, and its planning will not be commenced until next year. Meanwhile, the Yau Ma Tei Multi-storey Carpark, which will be demolished shortly, will not be reprovisioned. The Middle Road Carpark in Tsim Sha Tsui will also be demolished and converted into a private and commercial car park. As a result, coaches are parked indiscriminately because of the lack of parking spaces. Will the Secretary please take a serious look at the traffic congestion at Shanghai Street as well as Chatham Road South …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Member please raise your supplementary question.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is: Given the Secretary's remark that the car parking situation in each district is being watched closely, what specific conunter-measures are put in place?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, as we all know, the car parks in these districts were built many years ago, with some dating back to two or even five decades ago. From the angle of optimal use of land, there is indeed a need to release these sites in response to the demand of society on all fronts.
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In examining the conversion of these sites for other purposes, the Government will definitely conduct an inter-departmental study on traffic implications and the impacts caused by the loss of parking spaces. As a general practice, the Government will examine if there are other suitable sites in the district where parking spaces can be provided by means of STTs. Why is this approach adopted? Because the provision of parking spaces by means of STTs can achieve greater flexibility on the one hand, and lower operating costs on the other. Therefore, lower parking fees may be charged.
Besides examining whether or not there are suitable sites where parking spaces can be provided by means of STTs, as I mentioned just now, the Government will very often impose requirements in new development projects for the provision of a certain number of parking spaces. During the process, besides conducting some professional and consultancy study assessments, we will definitely consult the relevant District Councils (DCs) and discuss with DC members and locals.
MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, insofar as the provision of more parking spaces is concerned, the Secretary mentioned just now that he would discuss with DCs and, in the second paragraph of his main reply, added that he had been keeping in touch with the DCs and the industry in order to respond to the demand for parking spaces through short- and long-term measures. In the last paragraph of the main reply, the Secretary also mentioned that in order to facilitate the district transformation, the Government would explore different options in considering change of land use to ensure that adequate public facilities are provided in the districts. I believe he was referring to parking spaces as well, but this is not what we see in the communities. Let me cite myself, a DC member, as an example. In fact, it has been pointed out by many DC members in different communities, particularly the old ones, that parking spaces have been in short supply for a long time because of new developments in their districts, especially in communities where the tourism industry is involved. However, the TD's response has been very slow. This is why I have to follow up the same question.
Secretary, can you inform this Council of your actual response as you have grasp of the full picture of the actual shortfall of parking spaces in the 18 districts 2820 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 in concrete terms? If you do not have the detailed information at the moment, can you provide it after the meeting?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I can provide a chart after the meeting on the utilization of parking spaces in the 18 districts. (Appendix I) To my understanding, except for parking spaces in the Central and Western District which are relatively tight in supply, the utilization rates of car parks in other districts range from 60% to 80%. All in all, there are adequate parking spaces in all districts except for the Central and Western District. But certainly, the situation in individual locations in each district may vary. President, let me cite Kwun Tong, where transformation from the old to the new is underway, as an example. As we all know, the plan of Energizing Kowloon East seeks to develop Kai Tak, Kowloon Bay and Kwun Tong into the second core business district. However, there are many old buildings in these areas, too. Some of the old industrial buildings there are designed in such a way that there are no picking up/setting down facilities. Some people park their vehicles at the roadside for convenience sake. Therefore, congestion or even inadequate parking spaces will actually occur at certain locations.
In Kwun Tong, for instance, some short-term measures have been launched, including the provision of additional pedestrian crossings, adjustment of the positioning of traffic lights, re-examination of places where additional roadside parking spaces can be provided, and so on. Meanwhile, there are plans to launch a consultancy study next year to examine how long-term improvements can be made to improve pedestrian flow in certain districts to facilitate pedestrian movement. We have also requested that initial findings be made available by the end of 2015, such that we can implement some improvement measures expeditiously.
Hence, insofar as this aspect is concerned, if Members think that we can do more or better, they are welcome to make suggestions.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): President, in response to the issue of lorry parking spaces raised by Mr Frankie YICK today, the Secretary pointed out just now the common phenomenon of drivers waiting for loading/unloading. Earlier, a newspaper headline reported that even if parking spaces were available in industrial areas, many lorry drivers would still not park their LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2821 vehicles because they had to wait for their turn to enter the buildings for loading/unloading of goods ― owing to inadequate loading/unloading bays. If the convenient spot is occupied by someone else, they will have to wait for another turn. So, this situation is a deadlock.
This problem has existed for years in Kwai Chung, to which I belong, and the situation is deteriorating because the commercial development in the district has led to a growing number of private cars. In the long run, the Government cannot avoid undertaking planning for all the warehouses serving the logistics industry because, unlike the case of factories which require loading/unloading of goods only once every couple of days, loading/unloading of goods are required around the clock daily in the case of the logistics industry. How planning can be undertaken by the Government to encourage the development of the logistics industry in remote places? For instance, multi-storey warehouses can be built to allow lorries to load/unload goods on the top floor to avoid causing road congestion. Although this problem has been discussed for a long time, no conclusion has been reached to date. So, what would the Secretary do to treat this incurable disease plaguing the central industrial zone in the urban areas?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, insofar as the present situation is concerned, it is inevitable for traffic congestion to occur at certain times on certain road sections in the urban areas, or places which were originally industrial areas but are now undergoing transformation, such as Kwai Chung as mentioned by Mr Michael TIEN just now. However, I do not mean that we have to tolerate such a situation.
Just now, I cited Kwun Tong as an example to highlight the short-term improvement measures adopted by the TD and other government departments. On the other hand, as Mr Michael TIEN said, some lorry drivers park their vehicles at the roadside not because they cannot find a parking space, but because they find parking fees too expensive. We will adopt a tolerant attitude if it is not too congested on weekdays, because it concerns their livelihood. Certainly, if undue convenience is caused to the community, we will liaise with the relevant law-enforcement agencies to step up enforcement.
As for the question raised by Mr TIEN just now about the provision of adequate facilities for the transport and logistics industries to accommodate large vehicles and containers, how can it be solved? I think Mr TIEN has hit the nail 2822 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 on the head, for the phase 2 study on the Hung Shui Kiu New Development Area has just completed. As we all know, there are 192 hectares of brownfield sites in the new development area, with some of them converted into car parks and warehouses. While such uses are essential, the land has not been put to the optimal use. Hence, we are conducting a joint study with other Policy Bureaux with a view to consolidating the facilities in the new development area in future, including considering and studying the construction of some stand-alone multi-storey car parks and properties for storing the relevant facilities. This process will, however, take some time.
President, besides Hung Shui Kiu, there are quite many brownfield sites in Yuen Long South, too. All these areas are within our scope of study as well. During our study, we have to pay attention to the point that the sites identified must be convenient and close to highways and transport infrastructure, so that there is an incentive for drivers to park their vehicles in these places rather than in the urban areas due to proximity considerations.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): President, the taxi industry hopes that I can relay their request to the Government. It is precisely because of the inadequate number of parking spaces that taxi drivers very much hope that permission can be given to them to park their taxis at the roadside near places where they change shift. They promise that their taxis will leave before dawn. Can the Secretary for Development liaise with the Secretary for Transport and Housing and consider looking into their request? Doing so can not only relieve the burden on the industry, but also ease the pressure on car parks, thereby creating a better operating environment for the industry. Because they have pointed out that buses nowadays …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, your supplementary question is already very clear. Please let the Secretary answer it.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): … I hope the Secretary can consider the point that taxi drivers usually park their taxis at the roadside at the end of their shift.
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SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I believe inadequate parking spaces might not be the reason. From the angle of operators, they might think that their costs will be increased if they park their vehicles in car parks because parking fees are payable.
However, whether or not vehicles can be parked at the roadside at certain times really depends on the conditions of that road section. Mr WONG Kwok-hing, if vehicles are allowed to be parked on certain road sections in this manner, nuisance might be caused to the local people. I will examine this question with the relevant departments before furnishing a reply in writing. (Appendix II)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 23 minutes on this question. Fourth question.
Handling of Reports of Alleged Discrepancies Between Food Composition and Product Descriptions
4. MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported that a university professor claimed earlier that he had conducted tests on the turtle jelly products of a certain brand and found no constituents of turtle plastrons, and the commercial establishment concerned claimed that there had been a significant drop in business and its goodwill had been undermined as a result. The Customs and Excise Department (C&ED) subsequently test-purchased and collected samples of turtle jelly products of different brands in various districts of the territory for testing by the Government Laboratory, with the findings that all samples contained turtle constituents. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how the authorities generally handle reports of alleged discrepancies between the composition of food products and product descriptions; whether the Government has prescribed composition standards for turtle jelly products; how the authorities at present conduct laboratory tests on the composition of food products, as well as the organizations that conduct such tests and the criteria adopted for selecting the testing method;
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(b) when the laboratory test results of private testing organizations show that a food product does not meet the safety standards or that the descriptions of that food product may have violated the Trade Descriptions Ordinance, how the relevant government departments will follow-up such cases; whether there were occasions in the past five years on which tests on the same food product conducted separately by the Government Laboratory, the testing organizations commissioned by the Government and private testing organizations generated remarkably different results; if there were, of the reasons and the number of relevant cases; and
(c) where the Government's laboratory test results confirm that the composition of food products conforms with the relevant descriptions or safety standards, whether the authorities will assist the commercial establishments affected by false laboratory test results in making claims or request the private testing organizations which have conducted the relevant tests to make clarifications?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, my reply to the various parts of the question raised by Ms Starry LEE is as follows:
(a) Under the Trade Descriptions Ordinance (Cap. 362) (TDO), any person who supplies any goods with a false trade description in the course of any trade or business, or has in his possession for sale any goods with a false trade description, commits a criminal offence. The maximum penalty on conviction is a fine of $500,000 and imprisonment for five years.
Upon receiving a report of alleged discrepancies between food composition and product description, or a report or any information on the possible contravention of the TDO relating to the description of a food product, the C&ED, as the enforcement agency of the TDO, will normally first examine the report in detail and, where necessary, purchase the food product concerned on the market for testing of composition by the Government Laboratory (GL). Based on the test results, the C&ED will examine whether or not the food composition is inconsistent with the product description to the extent of constituting an offence of false trade description under the TDO, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2825 with a view to deciding on the necessary enforcement actions. If food safety is involved, the C&ED will liaise with the Centre for Food Safety (CFS) under the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department for co-ordinated follow-up actions.
The CFS is responsible for ensuring that food for sale in Hong Kong is fit for human consumption, in the interest of safeguarding public health. It carries out regulatory and enforcement work in accordance with the provisions on food safety, food standards and labelling requirements under the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance (Cap. 132) (PHMSO) and its subsidiary legislation. The Food and Drugs (Composition and Labelling) Regulations (Cap. 132W) (the Regulations) under the PHMSO stipulate that the label of prepackaged foods shall specify information such as the name or designation of food and list of ingredients. The Regulations also regulate misleading or deceptive nutrition labels and nutrition claims of prepackaged foods. Any person who does not comply with the abovementioned provisions renders himself liable to a maximum fine of $50,000 and imprisonment for six months.
Upon receiving a complaint or report relating to the provisions on food safety, food standards and labelling requirements under Cap. 132 and its subsidiary legislation, the CFS will follow-up the case in accordance with such provisions, including taking samples of food that is the subject of complaint or collecting samples of relevant food products from the market for testing and analysis by the GL.
Besides, the CFS monitors food incidents in Hong Kong, the Mainland and overseas on a daily basis. If any laboratory test report of private testing organizations shows that a product may have food safety problems, the CFS will study the relevant report and assess the potential health risks to the public so as to formulate the most appropriate risk management measures and risk communication messages. The CFS will collect product samples whenever necessary for testing by the GL for hazardous substances, before determining whether any further actions are required.
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If in the course of its work (such as when engaged in food surveillance or handling complaints and food incidents, and so on), the CFS comes across cases involving false trade descriptions, it will refer them to the C&ED for follow-up actions.
At present, there are no international or recognized product standards for the ingredients of turtle jelly products. Nor are there any specific composition standards for turtle jelly products in our legislation.
The GL, which provides laboratory testing services to the C&ED and the CFS, is an internationally recognized laboratory providing world-class scientific services. Food products and their composition are tested by using the most comprehensive and appropriate methodologies. The GL will primarily adopt the composition standards and testing methods promulgated by international authorities, such as the International Organization for Standardization and Codex Alimentarius Commission. If necessary, the GL will make reference to the relevant national standards and scientific literature for objective and scientific testing of the samples received.
(b) Part (a) of my reply gives an account of the follow-up action that would be taken by the relevant government departments when the laboratory test results of private testing organizations show that the descriptions of a food product may have violated the TDO, or that a food product does not meet food safety standards.
It is not always the case that we can make direct comparison between the test results arrived at by different testing organizations for a product of the same brand. Apart from the possible difference in the purposes that the tests are intended to serve, whether or not the samples are collected at the same time and place, and whether or not they are from the same manufacturing plant, produced on the same day or come from the same batch of products may also contribute to the difference in the testing results. With respect to the turtle jelly products in question, the C&ED and the private testing organization concerned did not collect their samples on the same day and at the same place.
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In the past five years, we did not come across any case handled by the C&ED where seemingly different results were observed for the tests performed on the same product sample by the GL and private testing organizations. The CFS did not keep records of any such cases over the past five years. As the regulatory agency responsible for food safety in Hong Kong, the CFS relies solely on the official test results for taking enforcement actions.
(c) As mentioned above, the C&ED is the enforcement agency of the TDO, while the CFS works to ensure food safety, thereby safeguarding public health. Under the two departments, there is no mechanism for assisting commercial establishments affected by inaccurate laboratory test results in laying statutory claims. Nor do the two departments have the authority to seek clarifications from the private testing organizations responsible for the relevant tests for the purpose of assisting such establishments. If necessary, the commercial establishments concerned may follow-up the case by seeking legal advice from their solicitors. If requested by the Court, the relevant government departments will provide inputs in the light of the circumstances of individual cases.
Separately, the Hong Kong Accreditation Service (HKAS) under the Innovation and Technology Commission provides accreditation service for laboratories in Hong Kong through the Hong Kong Laboratory Accreditation Scheme (HOKLAS). The HOKLAS aims to upgrade the standard of testing and management of Hong Kong laboratories, officially recognize their competence in performing specific tests, and promote the acceptance of endorsed test reports issued by accredited laboratories, both locally and internationally. The HOKLAS is open to voluntary participation. If there is any report or complaint against an accredited laboratory or its accredited services, the HKAS will approach the accredited laboratory. Should serious non-conformity with accreditation regulations or technical criteria be identified, the HKAS may suspend or terminate the relevant accreditation of the laboratory. Where any illicit practice comes to light, the HKAS will inform the relevant law-enforcement agencies for follow-up actions.
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MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, as I have said in the main question, as a result of the alleged discrepancies between food products and product descriptions claimed by a certain testing organization, the commercial establishment concerned had sustained a great negative impact. Although it was proved by the Government later that the product did have constituents of turtles, the blow dealt to the commercial establishment can be imagined.
The Secretary points out in part (b) of the main reply that different samples taken or different testing procedures adopted by different testing organizations at different times may affect the result of tests. This is exactly the crux of the problem. And the report issued by the testing organization concerned will certainly produce a great impact on the commercial establishment concerned.
My supplementary question, therefore, is as follows: Does the Bureau regulate these testing organizations in terms of the testing procedures adopted by these organizations in conducting tests, or are there any stringent requirements imposed on these organizations such that when they are to write any report, a series of rigorous steps must be taken before any conclusion reached can be made public?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, my simple and direct reply is: We do not regulate such matters. But as I have said earlier in part (c) of the main reply, the Government has set up the HKAS and also the HOKLAS. We very proactively encourage private or academic laboratories to take the initiative to apply for accreditation by the HKAS. We also encourage members of the public and consumers to choose accredited laboratories when they have the need or interest in handing any samples to these private or academic organizations for testing.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I am not too happy to see only Secretary Dr KO is here. This is because the TDO does not fall under the purview of Secretary Dr KO. Anyway, I will raise my question in the hope that even if the Secretary cannot give a reply, he will defer to the C&ED or the Security Bureau for follow-up.
President, at the beginning of this incident, I can see that the laboratory of a certain university said that it had tested many local products with turtle LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2829 constituents and with the exception of products from this particular brand, all products were found to have amino acid. As I do not have any knowledge in this respect, I do not know how amino acid is related to turtles. I do not know about it now either. The only thing I can think of is an analogy made by someone: All monks are bald, but does it mean that all people who are bald are monks? With respect to the question of whether products contain any constituents of turtle, just does the test indicating no amino acid equals to not having any constituents of turtle?
President, we can see two points in this issue. First, it is about a laboratory … I do not know who the victim in this incident is; I do not know if there is any rival brand which wants the laboratory to smear other people. And the laboratory has not said what the reasons are. Actually, with respect to complaints about the trading of goods, suppose the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department is to institute a prosecution, it is only after we have paid for the food concerned and it is only after a test has confirmed that something such as flies and cockroaches are added to the food before any prosecution can be instituted against the vendor. So no prosecution can be instituted when the food in question is not purchased.
In addition, with respect to the enforcement agency of the TDO mentioned by the Secretary in part (c) of the main reply, as a service industry is involved in this incident, when the testing result of a certain laboratory alleges that no turtle constituent is found in a certain product but it is found later to contain such constituent, should the C&ED be asked to check if this is a misleading or deceptive statement and whether prosecution can be instituted under this Ordinance?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, for the time being, I believe this element is not found in the Ordinance. But I would also like to point out the responsibility of the Government in this incident and what we will do. The Government will take a neutral stand in this incident. However, we are also responsible to the public.
After this incident has happened, we have taken a very responsible attitude. As far as I can remember, there were two claims in this incident. One claim was that there might be mould in the product. Another claim is that the product does not have any constituents of turtle plastrons. On the same day when the 2830 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 newspapers reported this incident, the department concerned inspected all the 81 retail outlets of this commercial establishment in Hong Kong and an announcement was made to inform the public that no problem was found in terms of sanitation. And the staff who went to inspect the shops took a number of samples for tests of turtle constituents. Of course, the result of these tests could only be released later. As I have just mentioned, since the time and place where these samples were taken are different, a comparison may not be possible. What we can do is to present these facts. But as to the question of who is right and who is wrong, we have no idea. Since the law does not provide for liability in this respect, I would think that the incident falls within the scope of civil action.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Is your supplementary question not answered?
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): No, the Secretary has not answered it. I am worried about whether or not he knows how to reply this question.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is very simple. I think the two government departments have done a very good job and it is fortunate that we have this Ordinance, for if not …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): … this commercial establishment will be enormously wronged.
May I ask the Secretary, as the TDO also regulates the service industries, whether it should also regulate laboratories? If a laboratory claims that a product does not have turtle constituents but in fact it has, will this be regarded as a kind of untrue statement? Should the authorities then follow up?
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SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, sorry, I only heard clearly just now what the supplementary question is about. After hearing this supplementary question from Mr CHEUNG, for the time being I would think that this may not be the problem and I would think on the other hand, this may involve a problem with the quality of the service provided by this laboratory.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, precisely I would like to follow up the question of quality of laboratory services. The Hong Kong Testing and Certification Council now has a voluntary accreditation scheme. But there is no relevant voluntary scheme to deal with complaints against laboratory services. When dealing with problems of service quality, the accreditation of the relevant organization is only suspended or revoked and there are no other penalties. So this organization is only a toothless tiger. May I ask the Government whether it will consider regulating this accreditation scheme by legislating and vesting proper authority in the future regulatory agency so that it can impose penalties other than a suspension of licence in order to enhance the regulation of the trade concerned?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): I understand Mr CHAN's supplementary question. But this touches on the issue of service quality. Insofar as tests conducted in a laboratory are concerned, often different standards and methodologies are used and we have to see what the targets and aims of the materials to be tested are. In such circumstances, it is difficult for us to make comparisons and we have no way to know if the laboratory concerned has any motives to do so deliberately. So if it is purely about service quality, at present and talking about the set of practices I have just mentioned, it can be said that these are our monitoring measures for the service quality of private testing organizations. However, this is definitely not sufficient to institute any prosecution under our criminal law system. As to the question of whether criminal liability should be imposed for regulatory purpose if a laboratory has conducted certain tests which do not conform to quality standards, honestly, I cannot figure this out at the moment.
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DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): I understand that the Member who raised this supplementary question is worried that if the testing results are not accurate, the goodwill of a certain brand may be affected. Therefore, the Member asked whether or not the testing organization should be punished. But now the CFS tests 65 000 samples every year and I think that Members are most concerned about not only whether the trade will be seriously affected, but also the question of whether only the Government should be in charge of tests in food safety. I agree with what Secretary Dr KO has said, that we should encourage civilian and even academic institutions to play a gate-keeping role in food safety. I therefore think that the focus should not be placed on punishing testing organizations …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr WONG, please raise your supplementary question and do not make any comments.
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): President, part (a) of the main reply by the Secretary mentioned certain requirements in law such as the stipulation that the composition of a product should be shown on the label and it is an offence for labels to be misleading or deceptive. May I ask the Secretary, for those foods without any labels or prepackaging, what measures do the Bureau have in place to play a gate-keeping role with respect to problems such as misleading or deceptive labels and food safety? For example, we can see that the frozen meat stalls in the markets sell bags of beef balls or calamary meat balls, and the vendors only show in the labels that these are beef balls, but no mention is made of the composition. If the test result shows that these beef balls in fact contain horse meat, chicken meat and pork instead of bona fide beef or that these beef balls have very little beef content, then can the Secretary tell us, who is to play a gate-keeping role with respect to the composition of such food?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, first, speaking from the perspective of food safety, although foods which are not prepackaged are not regulated by the Food and Drugs (Composition and Labelling) Regulations (Cap. 132W), they still have to comply with the requirements on food safety and standards under the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinances (Cap. 132) and its subsidiary legislation, including the requirement as set out in section 54 of Cap. 132 that any food for sale in Hong Kong, irrespective of whether it is prepackaged or not, shall be fit for human LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2833 consumption. An offender is liable to a fine of $50,000 and imprisonment for six months. Section 52 of Cap. 132 provides: "If any person sells to the prejudice of a purchaser any food … which is not of the nature, or not of the substance, or not of the quality, of the food … demanded by the purchaser, he shall … be guilty of an offence." The maximum penalty is a fine of $10,000 and imprisonment for three months. The subsidiary legislation under Cap. 132 also provides for the colouring matter, flavouring, preservatives and harmful substance.
Put simply, even if non-prepackaged food is not subject to any labelling requirement, if the substance in the food is not of the quality demanded by the purchaser and it is to the prejudice of the purchaser, it is offence in law.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, the reply from the Government today points out that at present there are no international or recognized product standards for the ingredients of turtle jelly products. Nor are there any specific composition standards for turtle jelly products in our legislation. President, it can be said that turtle jelly products are very popular in Hong Kong and in Guangdong Province and it is generally thought that turtle jelly products without any turtle constituents cannot be called turtle jelly products at all. In this particular row concerning testing, the City University of Hong Kong stated that the turtle plastrons in the products did not contain protein and this may be a breach of the TDO; but the government tests said that the products passed DNA tests and turtle constituents were found. It is obvious that the test results by the two organizations are poles apart.
President, in fact, many members of the public have only scanty knowledge of test reports and it is very difficult for them to tell which test report is correct. Since the Secretary is a medical doctor by profession and enjoys very high popularity, what he says will surely be trusted by the people. My supplementary question is: In order to dispel public misapprehensions about this testing result, can the Secretary tell us in a clear, simple and direct way, whether the turtle jelly products of this particular commercial establishment has contravened the TDO and will these products pose any health risks after consumption? Can the Secretary tell us in a simple way whether these products contravene the TDO and consumption of these product will affect health?
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SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): If a simple and direct answer is to be given to the supplementary question from Dr LAM Tai-fai, I can say that the two enforcement agencies have hitherto not found ― at least in the samples we have taken and as a result of our inspections ― that any commercial establishment has contravened the law in this incident.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 23 minutes on this question. Fifth question.
Combating Illicit Cigarettes
5. MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): A survey report has pointed out that as the prices of duty-paid cigarettes in Hong Kong are much higher than those in other Southeast Asian regions, activities of crime syndicates selling duty-not-paid cigarettes (illicit cigarettes) are thus very rampant in the territory. The report has projected that one out of every three packs of cigarettes consumed in Hong Kong is illicit, and estimated that the Government hence suffers a loss in revenue from tobacco duty as much as $3.3 billion annually. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of operations mounted by the Customs and Excise Department (C&ED) to combat illicit cigarettes in the past three years, as well as the quantity and total dutiable value of the illicit cigarettes seized in such operations;
(b) of the number of persons arrested in the past three years for selling or buying illicit cigarettes and, among them, the respective numbers of those prosecuted and convicted; the penalty generally imposed on the convicted persons; and
(c) given that some members of the public have pointed out that smokers, particularly young students with lower spending power who are vulnerable to peer influence, buy illicit cigarettes to save money, yet such purchases not only constitute a breach of law, but also encourage triad elements engaged in smuggling and trafficking illicit cigarettes to conduct other illegal activities, whether the authorities have launched targeted publicity in this connection to caution members of the public against the perils of buying illicit cigarettes; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
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SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, the C&ED has been making vigorous efforts in combating the smuggling and sale of illicit cigarette activities. The C&ED has enhanced its efforts against illicit cigarettes at different levels, including the importation, storage, distribution and peddling, so as to protect the government revenue.
As regards the importation, the C&ED has been working closely with the Mainland in order to strengthen intelligence collection. In recent years, the C&ED has particularly strengthened the strategy of combating illicit cigarettes at source, which has effectively reduced the inflow of illicit cigarettes into the local markets. In addition, as the C&ED continues to combat the storage, distribution and transaction of illicit cigarettes, black spots of illicit cigarette sale have been largely suppressed. In order to step up efforts to combat telephone ordering of illicit cigarettes, the C&ED has established a 26-officer specialized unit to conduct in particular intelligence analysis and law-enforcement against peddling via telephone orders and online sale of illicit cigarettes. Meanwhile, the C&ED has conducted random checks on incoming persons at control points.
In fact, since the C&ED has stepped up efforts to combat illicit cigarette activities through various levels, the number of complaints against illicit cigarettes has reduced by 34% when compared with last year. On the whole, there is no sign of obvious deterioration of the illicit cigarette situation and the activities concerned have become less rampant.
I now respond to the three parts of the question as follows:
(a) In the past three years, the C&ED has striven to combat illicit cigarette activities. The number of illicit cigarette cases detected, the quantity and total dutiable value of the illicit cigarettes seized are as follows:
2010 2011 2012 Number of cases (cases) 6 203 9 075 10 902 Number of cigarettes seized 47 71 67 (million sticks) Duty potential ($ million) 57 120 110
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(b) The number of persons arrested in 2010, 2011 and 2012 was 840, 773 and 606 respectively, among which 820, 724 and 571 were prosecuted and convicted.
As for the penalties imposed on the convicted persons, the fine level was between $100 and $80,000 and the imprisonment period was between one day and 18 months.
(c) In order to enhance the public awareness that it is an offence to buy and sell illicit cigarettes, the C&ED will continue to conduct various publicity programmes, including broadcasting anti-illicit cigarette Announcements of Public Interest on major radio and TV channels, putting up anti-illicit cigarette posters in public housing estates and tertiary institutions, encouraging the public to report illicit cigarette activities and enhancing public understanding of the offence and penalty of illicit cigarette activities. According to the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance, anyone who deals with, possesses, sells or buys illicit cigarettes commits an offence. The maximum penalty on conviction is a fine of $1 million and imprisonment for two years. Furthermore, a person who enters the territory at an entry point and fails to declare or makes a false or incomplete declaration to a Customs officer on the quantity of cigarettes in his/her possession which are in excess of the duty-free concession commits an offence. The C&ED may, in accordance with the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance, "compound the offence" by imposing a fine on instead of taking proceedings against the offender.
Meanwhile, as regards tobacco control, the Government will continue to adopt the multi-pronged approach comprising legislation, publicity, education, enforcement, smoking cessation and taxation to safeguard public health.
MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): President, the public can now call the 24-hour hotline of the C&ED to report illicit cigarette activities. How effective is the reporting of these activities at this hotline? Will the authorities consider providing more incentives to encourage the public to report illicit cigarette activities; if so, of the details; if not, why not?
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SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): The Government has in place a reward scheme for making such reports. Under this scheme, members of the public are encouraged to report illicit cigarette activities, and we consider this scheme effective. Certainly, we will consistently review the mode of this reward scheme and the incentives offered under it, but according to our judgment, this scheme has been operating effectively.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, the rich can drink cheap wine whereas the poor have to smoke expensive cigarettes. This is actually the current situation in Hong Kong. The Government seeks to suppress the number of smokers by frantically increasing the tobacco duty and this is actually pinpointing the poor and the grassroots, especially the poor elderly. Smoking is a sin; so is living in poverty. An increase in the tobacco duty will drive some people without the means to spend to run the risk of buying illicit cigarettes, and the situation may even worsen from one out of every three packs of cigarettes being illicit to one out of every two packs being illicit. As we all know, illicit cigarettes come from unknown sources and vary in quality, and there are even counterfeit cigarettes. But many elderly still prefer to quit eating rice than quit smoking. Although these elders and poor people may run the risk of smoking counterfeit cigarettes, they simply go on smoking.
May I ask the authorities if they have compiled statistics to estimate how many smokers will turn to illicit cigarettes after the frantic increase in tobacco duty and what kinds of more serious health problems they will develop in smoking illicit cigarettes? This is not as simple as a mathematical question, for it involves not only a higher healthcare cost for society, but also a humanitarian issue.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I have set out in detail some figures in my main reply to show that the operations launched by the Government to combat illicit cigarettes have suppressed the importation of illicit cigarettes at source and reduced the illicit cigarette activities in the market. This supplementary question raised by the Member is asking whether the Government's policy on tobacco duty has led to an increase in the number of illicit cigarettes, but the figures of illicit cigarette 2838 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 activities actually have not increased, and I even take the view that there are signs that these activities have become less rampant.
Moreover, it is a policy implemented in many places in the international community to increase the tobacco duty as a means to achieve tobacco control, and from the experiences of many places in the world, an increase in tobacco duty can help reduce the public demand for tobacco products in the long term and indirectly encourage smokers, especially young smokers, to quit smoking early. This is precisely the underlying reason for the Government to take forward the policy on tobacco duty.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): The supplementary question that I have put to the Secretary just now is this: The Government now plans to further increase the tobacco duty substantially, but has it estimated how many people will develop health problems from smoking illicit cigarettes? Is the Secretary saying that the number of illicit cigarettes will not increase even if the tobacco duty is further increased according to the figures he has just provided to us and the statistics he has in hand?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, has any estimate been made in relation to the situation as mentioned by the Member?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, concerning the tobacco duty, we will, on the one hand, pay regard to the consensus in the international community of controlling tobacco by increasing the tobacco duty and on the other, with regard to illicit cigarettes, we will continue to adopt effective measures to control illicit cigarettes.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): President, according to the table set out in part (a) of the Secretary's main reply, the numbers of cases in 2010, 2011 and 2012 seem to be showing a rising trend, and the rate of increase is quite substantial. Yet, the Secretary pointed out in the earlier part of the main reply that the number of complaints has "reduced by 34% when compared with last year". May I ask the Secretary with regard to the comparison made with last year that he mentioned, whether it was made on a monthly basis throughout the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2839
12 months or on a yearly basis or by other methods? It is because this figure seems to be vastly different from the rate of increase as shown in the table.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, the figures set out in the table show the number of illicit cigarettes seized and the number of illicit cigarette cases detected in the past. As regards the reduction of 34% mentioned in the previous paragraph, it refers to the reduction in the number of complaints against illicit cigarettes received. In other words, we had received many complaints against illicit cigarette activities before that, but after the 26-member specialized unit was established to carry out work on various fronts targeting online sale and peddling activities, the complaints have come down by 34%. This shows that the public have seen less such activities and the illicit cigarette activities in the market have also become less rampant.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): The point is when he said that the number has reduced by 34% when compared with last year, how did he arrive at this figure? Was the comparison drawn on a monthly or yearly basis or by other methods?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, can you explain how the comparison with last year as mentioned in the main reply was made?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Can you allow me to provide in writing a month-by-month comparison after this meeting? It is because the main reply has only provided the general figures. As regards from which time of the year the numbers of cases were counted, please allow me to provide a reply in writing. (Appendix III)
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): President, in the last part of the main reply it is said that "Meanwhile, as regards tobacco control, the Government will continue to adopt the multi-pronged approach comprising legislation, publicity, education, enforcement, smoking cessation and taxation". My question is about enforcement. It has been reported that there was a case of a fire caused by smoking in this Council. Has the Tobacco Control Office taken follow-up 2840 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 actions and conducted an investigation accordingly in order for the Legislative Council to lead by example?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I can only take questions relating to the tobacco duty and the enforcement work of the C&ED today. Therefore, I am not in a position to answer Mr NG's supplementary question.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): President, in part (b) of the main reply it is mentioned that there is a downward trend in the numbers of persons arrested and convicted over the past three years, but in part (c) it is said that the authorities may "compound the offence" by imposing a fine on instead of taking proceedings against the offender. May I ask since when this arrangement has been adopted? With such an arrangement in place, does it go to show that the downward trend in the said numbers is but a hoax?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): I am sorry. I do not quite catch it. Can the Member repeat it?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TSE, can you elaborate it?
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): President, since there is a system that allows a fine to be imposed as a replacement for taking proceedings against the offender, the number of prosecution will naturally fall. But in part (b) of the main reply the Secretary pointed out that the number of prosecution has dropped continuously. Is this the result of implementing the system whereby a fine is imposed on the offender instead of instituting prosecution against him, hence bringing down the number of prosecutions? How will the Secretary explain the discrepancy?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I thank the Member for his very detailed observation. The arrangement to "compound the offence" by imposing a fine on instead of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2841 taking proceedings against the offender enables the C&ED to deal with these cases effectively. In fact, the number of illicit cigarettes set out in the main reply can reflect the actual figures. I understand the supplementary question asked by the Member, but I think that this may only be a different presentation of the picture by figures, and this arrangement can indeed enable the C&ED to deal with illicit cigarettes more effectively.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): Would the Secretary first tell us since when the arrangement of imposing a fine instead of taking proceedings against the offender has been implemented? As regards the relevant figures and why there is such a discrepancy, the Secretary can provide a reply in writing but at least he should first tell us since when this arrangement has been implemented, so that we will know whether the figures provided to us are a true reflection of the actual situation or they are meant to mislead this Council.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): I thank the Member for his elucidation, and that is all clear now. This is an arrangement that we have all along implemented, an arrangement that has all along been implemented on the strength of powers conferred by the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance.
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): President, I have this question for the Secretary. In part (c) of the main reply, it is mentioned that the maximum penalty on conviction is a fine of $1 million and imprisonment for two years. As such, how many people have been convicted, fined and sentenced to imprisonment for two years respectively since such penalty was introduced? Can these cases be used for publicity and promotion purposes, so as to arouse more attention for the penalty?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I have some figures on hand, but I am afraid I have to provide supplementary information in writing later in order to explain these figures relating to the number of people convicted, their terms of imprisonment, and so on. (Appendix IV)
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As regards publicity, it is most important for members of the general public to understand that it is an offence to buy or sell illicit cigarettes. We will continuously step up efforts to put across this message through the penalty to ensure that the public are aware of the criminal liability carried by such acts.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last oral question.
Assistance Provided to Recycling Industry
6. MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported that as the Mainland authorities have launched the Operation Green Fence (OGF) since February this year to tighten up the inspection and testing standards for imported waste, a large quantity of waste has now been stranded in Hong Kong awaiting disposal. Moreover, some green groups have pointed out that on the one hand some eco-business enterprises cannot recover sufficient raw materials from waste (for example, waste glass) in the territory, on the other hand some recycling companies commissioned by the Government have been found sending the plastic waste collected through the three-colour recycling bins directly to the landfills for disposal. In order to step up concerted efforts in reducing waste at source and promoting the development of the recycling industry, the Government established in August this year the Steering Committee to Promote the Sustainable Development of the Recycling Industry (the Steering Committee) chaired by the Chief Secretary for Administration. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it has assessed the quantities of waste plastic and "foreign waste" currently stranded in Hong Kong as a result of the OGF; if it has, of the quantities; whether the Government will help the recycling companies handle such stranded waste; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(b) of the number of meetings the Steering Committee has held so far, the matters discussed at those meetings, as well as the progress and achievement of the related follow-up actions; the mode of operation of the "Recycling Fund" to be established and how the Fund will help promote waste recovery in the community; and
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(c) as some eco-business enterprises have expressed that they have difficulties in operating their businesses, whether the Government has consulted them comprehensively to understand what support such companies need; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; whether it will offer assistance in areas such as land supply, technology, funding and government procurement policies to eco-business enterprises in order to provide comprehensive support for the development of local eco-business enterprises; if it will, of the details of the support measures; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Cantonese): President, my reply to parts (a) to (c) of the question is as follows:
Plastic recyclables exported from Hong Kong into the Mainland can broadly be classified into two categories, namely, (i) recyclable plastics bought from overseas and imported into the Mainland, and (ii) recyclable plastics collected locally in Hong Kong. Good quality recyclable plastics, being commodities with commercial value, are actively traded in the international market. They can be recycled or reused as raw materials for production, thus conducive to the circular economy, waste reduction and sustainable development.
Local traders are very active in the import and export of recyclable plastics. There has been a large volume of recyclable plastics imported into the Mainland or other places through Hong Kong. As containers of these recyclables stop only briefly in Hong Kong before re-export to the Mainland, they will not cause local storage problems or turn into waste requiring local disposal. In fact, the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) inspected more than 1 800 containers of different types of recyclables imported into or transhipped through Hong Kong in the past three years but no contaminated recyclable plastics were spotted.
The Mainland's law-enforcement agencies have launched the OGF since February 2013, which involves strengthening the interception of illegal waste shipments with pollution risk and inspections of imported recyclables at all ports across the country, and strictly enforcing the relevant national standards. All recyclables meeting the national standards are not affected and can be imported into the Mainland as usual.
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With the launch of OGF, the export of local recyclables and transhipment of recyclables from overseas through Hong Kong to the Mainland have slowed down since early this year, and the overall shipment volume of recyclables has reduced. It is understood that local recyclers have already scaled down the importation of recyclables into Hong Kong. Some recyclers have introduced measures to raise their waste treatment capability (for example, installing shredding machines and washing facilities) and explored in parallel alternative outlets for the recyclables. Re-export of recyclables has recently become more stable and smooth. Between March and August 2013, recyclable plastics imported and re-exported to other places after a brief stop in Hong Kong averaged about 200 000 tonnes per month. In the joint operation of the EPD and Customs and Excise Department (C&ED) over the past few months, container checks on imported recyclables were strengthened. No import of contaminated plastic waste or rubbish was spotted.
The Mainland authorities have, under OGF, notified the EPD and the C&ED of 226 rejected containers up to mid-November 2013. These containers carry recyclable materials including metal scrap, plastic scrap, waste paper, and so on. With the assistance of the C&ED, the EPD is following up on the handling of these containers. Among the returned containers, 217 (96%) have been shipped out of Hong Kong and arrangements are being made for the departure of the remaining nine (4%). Recyclable plastics, which Members are particularly concerned, account for 121 of the 226 returned containers; among them, 114 (94%) have left Hong Kong whilst the remaining six (6%) are pending arrangements to be shipped out. The laws of Hong Kong prohibit the disposal of imported waste in Hong Kong. Any recyclable plastics imported but cannot be recycled or reused in Hong Kong must be re-exported for treatment elsewhere, which is the importer's obligation. The EPD has stringent monitoring measures in place in the operation of the landfills to ensure no disposal of imported waste.
The second category of recyclable plastics, that is, those collected locally, are of varying quality and some of them require longer processing time to achieve the standards set by importing countries. The recycling trade is modifying their operations and finding different means of handling the recyclables. The EPD has maintained close liaison with the trade, and will strive to co-ordinate and divert plastics which recyclers are unable to collect to alternative outlets to avoid disposal. At the same time, we have also stepped up publicity efforts to educate the public on proper separation of waste to prevent contamination of recyclables, improve the quality of recyclables collected and lessen the burden of subsequent LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2845 treatment. At the same time, to achieve further reductions in the local waste disposal rate as set out in the "Hong Kong Blueprint for Sustainable Use of Resources 2013-2022", the Government is actively studying measures to support the recycling trade so that various types of recyclables can be processed more effectively.
The Steering Committee to Promote the Sustainable Development of the Recycling Industry, which is led by the Chief Secretary for Administration, was set up in August this year to step up concerted efforts in reducing waste at source and promoting the development of the recycling industry. The work of the Steering Committee includes reviewing the current situation of local recyclables' collection and disposal, and relevant policies and support measures; studying viable measures to support the recycling industry, which covers exploring the feasibility of setting up a "Recycling Fund" and its possible mode of operation; and enhancing the community recycling network. In addition, the Steering Committee will explore means to foster community support in recycling through public education and community involvement projects, and to promote research on relevant technologies as well as training and development of the workforce.
Support measures now being implemented by the Government include: (1) the "Source Separation of Waste Programme", which increases the supply of recyclable materials by encouraging the public to separate waste at source; (2) providing suitable sites on Government land on short-term lease for exclusive bidding by recyclers; (3) building the EcoPark to help the long-term development of recycling trade through the provision of land at a reasonable cost; (4) taking the lead in the implementation and promotion of green procurement to increase demand for recycled and green products; (5) launching the "Producer Responsibility Schemes" to fund the collection and treatment of designated products by charging a levy on those products; (6) encouraging the development of recycling technologies and acquisition of waste recycling facilities through the Innovation and Technology Fund and the Environment and Conservation Fund; and (7) planning to allocate suitable berths in the Public Cargo Working Areas for the exclusive use of the recycling industry to ensure the provision of stable export facilities. On the above basis, the Government will continue to enhance relevant measures and facilities in order to promote the sustainable development of the recycling industry.
After its first meeting in August, the Steering Committee has held two meetings with the recycling sector and stakeholders in October and November, to 2846 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 listen to views from the recycling trade, green groups, non-government organizations, community groups, academics, and representatives from councils and committees on ways to promote the sustainable development of Hong Kong's recycling industry and support recycling operations. In the months ahead, the Government will liaise with the trade and relevant stakeholders to study in depth the structure of recycling operations for different types of recyclables and formulate tailored support programmes and measures for each recyclable type. Suggestions relating to the establishment of a "Recycling Fund" will be examined in that context.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, in the recycling trade at present, many small and medium enterprises not only seek to make profit but also to make contribution to the green industry. For this reason, they have persevered to keep their business afloat despite the great difficulties encountered and the loss incurred in operation. However, due to the shortage of capital and the lack of technical support, the technologies they use in operation are of an extremely low level. It is a common phenomenon that their cost is high but the output is low, and their products can hardly find any outlets. The Secretary also agrees with this point. May I ask the Secretary the method the authorities will adopt to rationalize the production chain of the recycling trade and enhance the quality, quantity and variety of waste collection, so that the trade may develop a balanced market to indentify outlets for their products and to ensure they can have a stable volume of recyclables?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Cantonese): President, I would like to thank Mr CHAN Hak-kan for his supplementary question. I very much agree with the views of the Honourable Member. Many people in the recycling trade are enthusiastic. They have been working on various fronts to support the recycling trade of Hong Kong and alleviate the pressure on landfills. However, for various reasons, there is room for further improvement in effectiveness, including technology and land use. Therefore, last week, we held a large-scale conference chaired by the Chief Secretary for Administration. At the conference, over 100 members from the trade and relevant stakeholders discussed the concerns about various types of recyclables raised by the Member just now. Members all know that there are around eight to 10 major types of recyclables. Since each type of recyclable has its unique ecological and operation environment, we need to understand the case in depth and examine the provision LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2847 of individual support. We understand the views of Members and appreciate that the trade faces difficulties in some measure. We must examine the ecology of each recyclable before we can draw up a policy to effect overall improvement in terms of the quality, quantity and various aspects of recyclables. I believe the Steering Committee will follow up the views of Members. We will make proactive efforts in the next few months with a view to formulating a relatively comprehensive strategy as soon as possible and announce it to society.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary mentioned in the main reply that as at mid-November, the waste returned to Hong Kong as notified by the Mainland did not include glass bottles.
President, my supplementary question is about the recycling of glass bottles, which is uncommon in Hong Kong. The Government and the Legislative Council are now discussing the issue, and it is expected that in one and a half years, which is 2015, the Producer Responsibility Scheme on Glass Beverage Bottles will be implemented. My worry is that the disposal of glass bottles at landfills will most likely be prohibited under the Scheme, so what target measures does the Government have to prevent Hong Kong from being encircled by glass bottles?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr FAN for his supplementary question on the collection and recycling of glass beverage bottles. Members must also be aware that the Government conducted a public consultation on the New Producer Responsibility Scheme on Glass Beverage Bottles early this year, and the public basically supported this scheme proposed by the Government. We will conclude the findings of the consultation soon, probably by the end of this year. Basically, the public consider that apart from glass beverage bottles, the recycling mechanism can include other non-beverage glass bottles in future.
Regarding Mr FAN's particular concern about the possible disposal of glass bottles at landfills, or whether it is necessary to make a prohibition order against disposal of glass bottles at landfills, the views collected so far consider that prohibition may not necessarily be an essential supportive measure in the implementation of the present producer responsibility scheme. Therefore, we will expand the glass bottle collection supporting facilities in various districts and 2848 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 increase the recycling volume through different mechanisms. It takes time to enhance the effectiveness of the measures gradually and to reduce the volume of glass recyclables at landfills. I believe that as time passes, the effect in this regard will be more obvious.
MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary mentioned in his reply earlier that the Government would step up concerted efforts in promoting the development of the recycling industry and studying viable measures to support the recycling industry.
President, at present, the greatest problem in recycling is the failure to find outlets for food waste. The waste treatment facilities at Siu Ho Wan and Sandy Ridge will come into operation only between 2015 and 2017, but a year of delay in the commencement of the operation of food waste treatment plants will result in the disposal of an extra 7 tonnes of food waste at landfills.
May I ask the authorities whether there is a timetable for the confirmation of other feasible sites for waste treatment plants? Apart from the construction of waste treatment plants, what other strategies do the authorities have to address the disposal problem of the large volume of food waste produced in Hong Kong every day?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr LIAO for his question on food waste. I agree with the Member that Hong Kong is facing a great challenge in terms of food waste. Among the waste disposed of at landfills at present, an average of over 44% of the waste is organic waste related to food waste, which accounts for the largest proportion. The Government is aware of the problem and has made proactive efforts to follow up. The actions taken include the introduction of the "Food Wise Hong Kong Campaign", which aims at waste reduction at source, reducing and minimizing the generation of food waste. We hope that this campaign will reduce food waste by about 10% in a few years. The volume of 10% of the present food waste is a significant amount, for Hong Kong now generates 3 600 tonnes of food waste per day at present, and 10% will mean 300 tonnes, which is greater than the volume we propose to be treated at the waste treatment plant at Siu Ho Wan. Therefore, the mobilization of all members of society to reduce waste from the kitchen to the table is a really important issue.
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At the same time, we understand that the limitations in food waste recovery. Take Taiwan as an example. In Taipei, the recovery of food waste has been implemented for more than a decade. A lot of facilities have been established there, including the matching of the agricultural industry and pig-raising industry, yet the overall recovery rate of food waste is only around 50%. It is evident that there are limitations in this aspect.
As for Hong Kong, we are making proactive efforts to start the work in this aspect, including the food waste recovery facility at Siu Ho Wan. The facility is now at the planning stage, and upon its completion, food waste will be used for power generation. The proposal will be submitted to the Legislative Council soon. I hope Members will approve the funding for the construction of the facility, so that it will be completed in 2016 the earliest. The second facility for food waste treatment will be constructed at Sandy Ridge in North District. Now under planning, it is targeted for completion in 2017. However, the food waste treatment capacity of the two facilities will only be 500 tonnes daily in total, so we hope to formulate a more comprehensive set of proposal for the treatment of food waste in Hong Kong. We are now working intensively on the formulation of the food waste treatment policy and we hope to share it with society as soon as possible.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, in fact, there are only four methods in waste management, namely, reduction, recycling, incineration and disposal at landfills. Among these methods, disposal at landfills is the most undesirable option with the lowest sustainability. However, the Government is putting all the resources in landfills. In aspects like effective recycling, the Government has only set up funds, providing the resources for pilot schemes, education and offering incentives.
Secretary, will you admit that the resource allocation approach adopted in the past is wrong? In future, will the Government allocate recurrent expenditure every year as some sort of direct commitment in supporting the recycling trade?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Ms Cyd HO for her supplementary question on the allocation of resources by the 2850 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Government or society to waste disposal. I think it is not only about monetary resource, but also the best use of various resources, including land, in society. In view of this, we introduced the "Hong Kong: Blueprint for Sustainable Use of Resources 2013-2022" in May this year after reviewing the effectiveness of previous policies. The 10-year framework proposed can precisely respond to the views put forth by Ms HO. We will examine the experience in the past with a view to ensuring sustainable development and environmental protection in the next 10 years for Hong Kong, and striving for more balanced development on various fronts, including waste reduction at source and recycling support, so that a desirable balance will be achieved in the development on various fronts as well as infrastructure in future.
Ms HO is particularly concerned about whether funding as recurrent expenditure will be provided to support the development of the recycling trade. The Steering Committee to Promote the Sustainable Development of the Recycling Industry, which was established in August this year, is now listening to the views of the trade. The Steering Committee has made communication with the trade at recent meetings, hoping to examine ways to ensure the best use of public money and set up a mechanism whereby the recycling trade can develop healthily, thus reducing the reliance on landfills in turn. As such, I think we are going in the same direction as expressed in Ms HO's views. However, the formulation of mechanisms or methods entails a process, and we have to communicate with the trade first.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): Why does the Secretary not admit direct that the previous approach of putting resources in landfills instead of developing the recycling industry is a mismatch of resources? Only when he has admitted this will the review be carried out on this basis.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have any response?
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SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Cantonese): President, I thank Ms HO for her supplementary question. Society should keep abreast of the times. We admit, and society has come to the consensus, that there is room for improvement in waste disposal on various fronts. However, I would like to point out that, despite the significance of recycling in the blueprint for waste treatment, the fundamental problem of Hong Kong is that the waste generation rate per capita per day in Hong Kong is higher than other places.
Take domestic waste as an example. The domestic waste generation rate per capita per day is 1.36 kg, which is 80% higher than that of Japan. Therefore, it is a problem with the source, for a large amount of waste is food waste. In view of this, the most important concern we should pay attention to in policy formulation and resource allocation is to promote waste reduction at source accordingly. For this reason, we have introduced the "Food Wise Hong Kong Campaign" to remind the public not to waste food, and campaigns mobilizing society like this one are crucially important.
Moreover, we have to formulate policies to balance the development on various fronts, including improving the infrastructure, for despite an increase in the recycling and waste reduction rates, we need some terminal waste treatment facilities to ensure the overall environment and hygiene of society. Therefore, we have to strike a balance on the four fronts.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 22 minutes on this question. Oral questions end here.
WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Monitoring Compliance with Dimensional Standard of Parking Spaces for Private Cars
7. MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Chinese): President, the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines (HKPSG) stipulate that a standard parking space for private cars shall be 5 m in length, 2.5 m in width and 2.4 m in height. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
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(a) of the current respective numbers of private car parking spaces in private and public car parks in Hong Kong;
(b) whether the authorities will, before the commissioning of car parking facilities, measure the dimensions of private car parking spaces in such facilities to see if the aforesaid standard has been complied with; whether the authorities regularly send officers to inspect private and public car parks to count the number of private car parking spaces which meet the aforesaid standard; and
(c) when private car parking spaces not meeting the aforesaid standard are found, whether the authorities will require the owners of the car parks concerned to carry out improvements and impose punishment on those owners who refuse to carry out improvements; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, when examining new development proposals, the Transport Department (TD) under the Transport and Housing Bureau will advise on the number of parking spaces, taking into account the supply and demand of parking spaces as well as the traffic situation in the district concerned. Planning details will then be implemented by the departments under the Development Bureau. For example, the Buildings Department (BD) is responsible for monitoring the design, planning and construction of private buildings and related works in accordance with the Buildings Ordinance (Ordinance), with a view to ensuring the compliance of relevant safety and health standards. If limitations on the number and dimensions of parking spaces are stipulated in the lease conditions, the developers concerned have to apply for approval from the Lands Department (LandsD) before making any changes.
Regarding private car parking spaces inside private buildings, the BD is responsible for vetting building plans of the buildings concerned and issuing occupation permits. The car parking requirements as stated in the HKPSG are used as reference only. Appropriate adjustments can be made for individual locations in case where the requirements cannot be complied with due to physical constraints and other considerations, provided that building and traffic safety will not be compromised.
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Car parks in Hong Kong are generally either privately or publicly operated. Private car parks include those inside private premises mainly for use by eligible persons and visitors. Public car parks are those available for use by the public.
My reply to the various parts of Mr Andrew LEUNG's question, after consulting the Development Bureau, is as follows:
(a) Currently, the numbers of parking spaces in private and public car parks (excluding roadside parking spaces) are about 450 000 and 180 000 respectively.
(b) Public car parks managed by the TD are designed and constructed in accordance with either the building standards in practice at that time or the HKPSG after they went in force. As for private car parks and privately operated public car parks, authorized persons are responsible for ensuring that the construction works are in compliance with the requirements of the Ordinance and its subsidiary legislation. To properly designing private car parks, authorized persons should make reference to the HKPSG, which specify guidelines on private car parking spaces, and the Practice Notes for Authorized Persons, Registered Structural Engineers and Registered Geotechnical Engineers promulgated by the BD. Upon receipt of an application for the certificate of completion of building works and occupation permit, officers of the BD will carry out general site inspection in accordance with established procedures, and vet the supporting documents submitted as required by the Ordinance. If it is confirmed that the building concerned complies with relevant requirements of the Ordinance and its subsidiary legislation, an occupation permit will be issued by the BD. Generally speaking, while officers of the BD will conduct random checks to measure the major dimensions of the newly completed building to verify whether they are completed in accordance with the approved plans, no measurement of the parking spaces will be undertaken. If the dimensions of car parking spaces are stipulated in the relevant lease conditions, the LandsD will, when processing application for issue of Certificate of Compliance, conduct on-the-spot random checking on the dimensions of the parking spaces, before the issuance of the Certificate.
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(c) Investigations will be carried out by the BD upon receipt of reports on contraventions of the Ordinance in car parks within private buildings that have been issued occupation permits. If it is confirmed that there are unauthorized building works or change of use in the car parking spaces concerned, the BD will take follow-up actions according to the provisions of the Ordinance and the prevailing enforcement policy. If complaints or referrals regarding non-compliance of car parking spaces with the relevant lease conditions are received, the LandsD will, after confirmation of the breach of such conditions, take appropriate lease enforcement actions.
Arrangements for Giving Evidence by Victims of Sex Crimes
8. MR PAUL TSE (in Chinese): President, some voluntary organizations dedicated to helping victims of sex crimes (victims) have pointed out that quite a number of victims have given up pursuing their cases as they are worried about exposing their identity or they do not wish to recount in court their experience of being sexually abused, thus allowing the offenders to escape justice and go unpunished. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the respective numbers of cases in which the prosecution helped the victims apply to the court for protective measures (that is, via live television link or behind screen) in giving evidence in each year between January 2010 and September 2013, as well as those in which approval was given to the victims to do so, with a breakdown by category of victims (that is, (i) person with mental incapacity, (ii) person aged 17 or below and (iii) able-bodied adult) in the following table;
Number of cases in which the victim belonged to the following Category of category protective Year Person with mental Person aged 17 or Able-bodied adult measures incapacity below applied for Applied Approved Applied Approved Applied Approved Live television 2010 link Behind screen LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2855
Number of cases in which the victim belonged to the following Category of category protective Year Person with mental Person aged 17 or Able-bodied adult measures incapacity below applied for Applied Approved Applied Approved Applied Approved Live television 2011 link Behind screen Live television 2012 link Behind screen Live 2013 television (up to link September) Behind screen
(b) whether it knows the respective factors generally considered by the court in approving or rejecting applications from victims for giving evidence via live television link or behind screen;
(c) of the numbers of cases in which the victim made statements with the company of female police officers or by way of video recording after reporting the case between January and September this year, with a breakdown by police district in the following table;
Number of cases in Number of cases in which victims made which victims made statements with the statements by way of Police district company of female video recording police officers Indecent Indecent Rape Rape assault assault Hong Kong Island Kowloon East Kowloon West New Territories North New Territories South Marine
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(d) of the respective numbers of cases in which the defendant was convicted of rape or indecent assault in each year between January 2010 and September 2013; and
(e) of the respective total numbers of cases in which the police discontinued investigation after receiving reports of rape and indecent assault in each year between January 2010 and September 2013, with a breakdown by reason of discontinuing investigation (including charge withdrawn by the victim, case not pursuable, complaint resolved summarily and false report, and so on) in the following table?
Total number Number of cases in which investigation was of cases in discontinued due to the following reasons which the Category police Charge Year of sex Complaint False discontinued withdrawn Case not crime resolved report and investigation by the pursuable summarily others after receiving victim reports Rape 2010 Indecent assault Rape 2011 Indecent assault Rape 2012 Indecent assault 2013 Rape (up to Indecent September) assault
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, the police endeavour to handle all sexual violence cases seriously with understanding and empathy for the dual purposes of avoiding further harm to the victims and bringing the offenders to justice.
The police would thoroughly investigate each case of sexual violence and make every effort to collect evidence. Upon receipt of such a report, the police will as soon as practicable assign a police officer who is trained to deal with sexual violence and who is of the same sex with the victim to conduct interview and take statements. The victim may be accompanied by a family member or a friend if so wishes. The police will arrange a video interview at a "Vulnerable Witness Interview Suite" if a statement is to be taken from a child victim of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2857 sexual violence who is under 17 years old or who is mentally incapacitated, so as to reduce the victim's stress throughout the investigation. In addition, when legal proceedings are instigated, the Department of Justice (DoJ) will take into account the circumstances of individual cases and consider applying to the court for the victim for giving evidence via live television link or behind screen.
The reply to the Member's questions is as follows:
(a) and (b)
According to the DoJ, during the period of January 2010 to September 2013, the court granted all applications by the prosecution for the victims to give evidence via live television link. Please refer to the figures at Annex A. The DoJ do not maintain the number of applications to the court for the use of screens.
In respect of giving evidence by way of a live television link, section 79B of the Criminal Procedure Ordinance (Cap. 221) provides the test which the Courts have consistently applied to consider the granting of the use of live television link. The provision applies to child witnesses, mentally incapacitated persons and witnesses in fear. In respect of child witnesses, in particular, the Court of Appeal has held that if the statutory criteria are satisfied, it should normally follow that an application to use live television link should be granted.
As to the use of witness screens, it is the DoJ's experience that the court may approve such an application when it accepts the argument that the use of screens will help the victim give evidence in a less stressful atmosphere and after carrying out a balancing exercise between this objective and the accused's right to confront his accuser. Cases where the use of a screen has been granted include those where excessive violence has been used or where the allegations against the accused are of a particularly scandalous nature, likely to lead to a victim being unable to testify properly without a screen and thereby rendering a trial impossible.
(c) The police do not maintain the number of cases in which the victim made statements with the company of female police officers or by 2858 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
way of video recording after reporting the case. However, as mentioned above, upon receipt of a report of sexual violence, the police will, as quickly as possible, assign an officer of the same sex with the victim for interview and taking statement. Figures of rape and indecent assault cases received by the police between January 2010 and June 2013, including the number of cases in which the victims are female, are at Annex B.
(d) The number of persons convicted of indecent assault or rape between January 2010 and June 2013 is at Annex C.
(e) The police endeavour to investigate all crime cases, including sexual violence cases, which are handled in the light of the circumstances of each case and the evidence gathered in the course of the investigation. Once there is evidence that a sexual offence has been committed, the police will, as quickly as possible, arrest the suspect(s). Charges shall be laid if there is sufficient evidence. The police do not maintain the total number of cases in which the investigation discontinued after receiving reports of rape and indecent assault, nor do they have any breakdown of such cases.
Annex A
Number of Applications by the Prosecution for the Victims to Give Evidence via Live Television Link and Number of Court Approvals Granted (between January 2010 and September 2013)
Number of cases in which the victim belonged to the following category Year Person with mental Person aged 17 or Able-bodied adult incapacity below Applied Approved Applied Approved Applied Approved 2010 19 19 149 149 2 2 2011 12 12 121 121 1 1 2012 18 18 125 125 0 0 2013 (up to 11 11 75 75 1 1 September)
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Annex B
Figures of rape and indecent assault cases received by the police (between January 2010 and June 2013)
2013 2010 2011 2012 (as at June)(1) Rape(2) 112 91 121 59 Indecent assault(3) 1 448 (1 397) 1 415 (1 364) 1 495 (1 423) 759 (722)
Notes:
(1) Latest figures as at June 2013.
(2) All are female victims.
(3) Figures within brackets are the number of cases in which the victims are female.
Annex C
Number of persons convicted of indecent assault or rape (between January 2010 and June 2013)
2013 2010 2011 2012 (as at June)(1) Rape(2) 19 28 20 8 Indecent assault 426 421 439 190
Notes:
The respective year of the above figures represents the year in which the trial was concluded.
(1) Latest figures as at June 2013.
(2) The above figures only include the number of defendants who were convicted of rape. The figures do not include the number of defendants who were originally charged with rape, but subsequently acquitted of the rape charge after trial and convicted of another offence pursuant to Schedule 1 of the Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200), other statutory provisions or other offence/s alternative to the charge of rape on the indictment.
2860 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Establishment of a Public Wi-Fi Network
9. MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Chinese): President, since 2008, the Government Wi-Fi Programme (GovWiFi) has been implemented to provide the public with free wireless broadband Internet connection service at government premises. The Government is planning to further extend the GovWiFi service to more leisure locations as well as popular focal points. It will also work with public organizations (such as public hospitals) to provide free wireless Internet connection services at their premises, and is planning to promote a common Wi-Fi branding for Wi-Fi services offered free of charge. In relation to the establishment of a public Wi-Fi network, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the average daily number of users and number of Internet connections for GovWiFi as at October this year;
(b) of (i) a breakdown by type of premises of the number of premises provided with GovWiFi service, and (ii) the number of Wi-Fi hotspots provided by commercial organizations, as at October this year, broken down by District Council district;
(c) as some members of the public have relayed to me that the stability of connection and data transmission speed of the GovWiFi hotspots at individual premises are poor, whether the authorities have plans to make improvements; if they have, of the details;
(d) given that the former Office of the Telecommunications Authority revised in 2007 the "Guidance Note for Submission of Application for Installing Micro-cell Base Station on Highway Facilities or on Unleased and Unallocated Government Land" to facilitate telecommunications services operators to provide and expand the coverage of outdoor wireless Internet connection services in Hong Kong, of the number of operators which have passed the relevant power supply tests and have installed Wi-Fi devices on lamp posts, as well as the total number of Wi-Fi devices installed by these operators and the distribution of such devices, as at October this year; whether the authorities will consider establishing an inter-departmental co-ordinating group to provide one-stop services LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2861
to the operators so as to help them apply for installing Wi-Fi devices on lamp posts and to solve related technical or other problems;
(e) given that the Director of Audit's Report No. 60 has recommended the authorities to "run the [GovWiFi] service more cost-effectively", whether the authorities have drawn up any specific targets and plans in this regard; and
(f) given that the service contract with the existing contractor of GovWiFi will expire in December 2017, whether the authorities have plans to review the current mode of procuring integrated services from the market (for example, examining the feasibility of adopting a public-private partnership approach), so as to enhance service quality and encourage creative options for utilizing GovWiFi hotspots; if they have, of the details, timetable and targets?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, the Government Wi-Fi (GovWiFi) Programme aims to provide free wireless Internet access services to the public and visitors by installing Wi-Fi facilities at suitable government premises. Under the GovWiFi Programme, which was launched in early 2008, more than 2 300 Wi-Fi hotspots have been installed at 430 government premises in the 18 districts across the territory to provide free GovWiFi services to the public and visitors. These premises include public libraries, public enquiry service centres, sports venues, cultural and recreational centres, cooked food markets and cooked food centres, job centres, community halls, major parks, government buildings and offices, and so on.
Regarding the questions raised by Mr Charles Peter MOK, my reply is as follows:
(a) Since its roll-out, GovWiFi service has been well received by the public with a steady growth in service usage. The average numbers of users and Internet connections per day have increased from about 3 700 and 6 700 upon the full roll-out of service in June 2009 to 26 600 and 36 300 respectively in October 2013.
2862 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
(b) Distribution of GovWiFi premises by type in various districts (as at October 2013) is set out in Annex 1. Distribution of public Wi-Fi hotspots provided by other commercial organizations in various districts is set out in Annex 2.
(c) We have just completed a comprehensive service inspection at all GovWiFi premises to ensure service quality. Moreover, in order to increase the transmission speed, starting from October this year, the bandwidth allocation per user of GovWiFi service was increased (from the previous 1 to 2 Mbps to about 3 Mbps) whereas the overall bandwidth for individual premises was adjusted according to service usage. We have also increased the frequency of monthly sample checks on GovWiFi service at these premises to monitor the service level, including transmission speed and connection stability.
(d) The Office of the Communications Authority (OFCA) has issued the "Guidance Note for Submission of Application for Installing Micro-cell Base Station on Highway Facilities or on Unleased and Unallocated Government Land" to facilitate the installation of radio base stations and Wi-Fi equipment on government facilities (for example, lamp posts, footbridges and flyovers) by operators (that is, mobile network operators and public wireless service operators). The Guidance Note sets out in details the procedures, requirements and issues concerning the installation of micro-cell base stations (MCBS) at the said locations to facilitate the submission of applications by operators. The latest version of the Guidance Notes has been uploaded to the website of the Communications Authority
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2863
Regarding the installation of Wi-Fi equipment on lamp posts, two operators have submitted applications for conducting pilot tests to the OFCA and the departments concerned. One of them has conducted the tests, while the departments concerned have also provided views on the pilot project of the other operator. To resolve the technical and related problems by the industry, the OFCA and the HyD have since early this year resumed meeting with the operators regularly to review and streamline the approval process and installation requirements, so as to facilitate the operators to make use of lamp posts for the installation of Wi-Fi equipment to provide public Wi-Fi services. To assist operators with the selection of suitable lamp posts, the HyD has provided the operators with a list for their reference. The list contains information such as location and height of lamp posts available for installation of Wi-Fi equipment. Those lamp posts on the list have been selected with reference to information such as weight and wind exposure area of their Wi-Fi equipment provided by the operators in recent years. Besides, the operators are co-ordinating among themselves to work out a standardized design for installing their Wi-Fi equipment, which is expected to be submitted to the HyD for endorsement by end of this year.
(e) Regarding the recommendation made in the Director of Audit's Report that the GovWiFi service should be run more cost-effectively, we will continue to monitor and review GovWiFi service usage at the existing and new premises to ensure cost-effectiveness, including collecting and analysing information on the daily numbers of GovWiFi users and Internet connections at all the premises for proper and timely service adjustment.
In selecting new GovWiFi premises, we will consider the patronage and service demand of the premises. We will suggest Wi-Fi hotspots to be installed first at locations which are convenient to public access with high patronage to enhance the cost-effectiveness of the service facilities.
(f) The GovWiFi service contract will expire by the end of 2017. We plan to start a strategic review in 2015 in collaboration with the user departments, and will examine the feasibility of various options.
2864 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Annex 1
Distribution of GovWiFi premises in the 18 districts across the territory (as at October 2013)
Shui Po Shui Premises type Total TaiPo Sha Tin Sha Sai Kung Sai WanChai TuenMun Yuen Long Yuen TsuenWan KwaiTsing Kwun Tong Wong Tai Sin Tai Wong KowloonCity Sham NorthDistrict IslandsDistrict YauTsim Mong EasternDistrict SouthernDistrict Centraland Western District
Public libraries 3 6 4 3 4 6 4 6 7 3 3 2 3 1 2 3 4 3 67 Public enquiry 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 20 service centres Job centres 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 12 Sports centres, 6 7 7 7 5 9 8 4 2 8 4 5 4 6 3 5 9 7 106 sports grounds, stadiums Government 11 17 2 7 4 1 1 4 1 1 1 11 2 63 buildings and offices Community 3 1 4 1 2 8 3 2 5 3 4 3 3 3 2 5 52 halls and centres/ complexes Cooked food 4 7 5 3 3 4 2 2 2 1 4 37 markets/centres Parks, gardens 7 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 6 3 1 3 1 3 3 41 and visitor centres Cultural and 2 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 6 2 20 recreational centres Holiday camps 1 2 1 4 Piazza/beaches/ 2 1 1 4 promenades Ferry 2 1 1 4 terminals/cruise terminal Total 40 30 25 34 19 30 30 20 14 16 18 19 22 15 16 16 42 24 430
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2865
Annex 2
Number of public Wi-Fi locations and hotspots provided by other commercial organizations (as at October 2013)
District Number of locations Number of hotspots Hong Kong Central and Western District 386 851 Eastern District 382 816 Southern District 166 572 Wan Chai 329 902 Kowloon Kowloon City 222 299 Kwun Tong 446 594 Sham Shui Po 281 359 Wong Tai Sin 317 355 New Territories and Islands Islands District 123 204 Kwai Tsing 368 480 North District 136 147 Sai Kung 205 314 Sha Tin 405 464 Tai Po 138 209 Tsuen Wan 197 256 Tuen Mun 269 280 Yau Tsim Mong 493 1 971 Yuen Long 306 319 Total 5 169 9 392
Note:
Besides, there are 326 public Wi-Fi locations on mobile transportation media such as vehicles and vessels with a total of 634 hotspots.
2866 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Employment of Female Police Officers
10. DR HELENA WONG (in Chinese): President, the Police Force introduced equal pay for equal work for male and female police officers as early as in the 1970s and, since the 1990s, all newly recruited female police officers have been allowed to carry a firearm whilst on duty. Some members of the public have indicated that as quite a number of women have participated in public activities such as demonstrations and processions in recent years, they are very concerned about whether there are enough female police officers and their work arrangements. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the respective numbers of male and female police officers and the percentages of women in various ranks in the Police Force since 1990, and set out the relevant figures in the table below;
Rank
Sergeant
Police of Inspector Station Sergeant Station Inspectorof Police/ Corporal/Constable Superintendent of Police of Superintendent ChiefInspector of Police Senior Chief Superintendent of Police of Superintendent Chief Senior Superintendent of Police of Superintendent Senior
Police/ of Inspector Probationary
women Totalnumber of police officers
Totalofofficersnumberfemale police Male Male Male Male Male Male Male Male
Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female
officers police of number total the in women of Percentage Percentageof women Percentageof Percentageof women Percentageof women Percentageof women Percentageof women Percentageof women Percentageof women Year 1990 1991 1992 . . . 2010 2011 2012
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2867
(b) whether the police have taken any measure to increase the proportion of women in the Police Force; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(c) whether the police have made use of the Gender Mainstreaming Checklist to review the accoutrements, the contents of training, the environment and nature of work, and the promotion system for male and female police officers; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(d) of the respective average waiting time for male and female police officers to receive training in the Police Tactical Unit (PTU) at present?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, for the past decades, the Hong Kong Police Force (HKPF) have taken various measures to enhance female police officers' status in the light of social development, including introduction of equal pay for male and female police officers, implementing the arrangement for all newly recruited female police officers to carry firearms while on duty, and allowing female police officers to join the PTU. Based on the principle of equal opportunities, the HKPF have maintained a level playing field in various areas of human resource management, such as recruitment, training, posting and promotion. Female and male police officers are equally treated in all units within the HKPF and there is no fundamental difference in job nature.
The reply to the various parts of Dr WONG's question is as follows:
(a) and (b)
As an Equal Opportunities Employer, the HKPF welcome any earnest person meeting the entry requirements, including academic qualifications, language proficiency and fitness standards, and sharing the HKPF's value, to serve the community by joining the Force.
2868 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
There are currently about 4 400 female police officers, representing approximately 15.6% of the total number of disciplined officers. About 14.5% of the officers at rank and file level are female officers, and for ranks at Inspectors and above, the percentage of female officers is about 25.8%. The percentages of female police officers among disciplined officers in the past five years are as follows:
Number of female Percentages of female police officers Year police officers among disciplined officers 2009 3 990 14.4 2010 4 128 14.8 2011 4 234 15.1 2012 4 303 15.4 2013 4 391 15.6
The HKPF have not maintained a breakdown of statistics of male and female police officers in various ranks as well as the percentages of female police officers in various ranks for the last two decades.
(c) In the procurement of uniform and accoutrements for officers, the HKPF have adopted the gender mainstreaming concept and has consulted both male and female police officers. Having regard to the differences in the body shape of male and female and the feedback received, the HKPF have made suitable improvements to the materials and design of uniform and accoutrements, such as improving the design of bullet-proof vest and procuring pistols with handles of different sizes to suit the needs of male and female officers. These would not only help enhance the safety of front-line police officers, but also help improve the overall operational efficiency of the HKPF.
For training programmes in the Police College, including in-class examinations/tests, practical training and foot drills, uniform standards are applied across the board to male and female trainees. As regards physical training, on account of the differences in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2869
physical attribute and body structure between male and female, the HKPF have adopted an entry fitness requirement based on gender qualities. The Police College would observe the scientifically-justified test scores and pass indicators in assessing the fitness levels of male and female trainees throughout the course of training.
In terms of working environment, the HKPF have ensured that sufficient facilities for all officers are in place, including gender-specific rest rooms. Manpower deployment is based on operational needs rather than gender. As a matter of fact, there are no major differences in the discharge of duties between male and female police officers, and they share equal chance in terms of deployment to various posts and assumption of different roles. Having said that, specific cases, such as those of domestic violence and sexual offence, are to be handled by officers who are of the same sex with the victims. In addition, a Tango Company, which comprises female police officers, is set up to render support in tasks such as crowd management on top of their normal duties. District Commanders may mobilize officers of this Tango Company to meet operational needs.
As regards the selection of officers for promotion, all police officers meeting the criteria may voluntarily attend a selection test, in which their character, ability, experience and any qualifications prescribed for the promotion rank will be assessed. All eligible candidates are selected on an equal basis in accordance with the Civil Service Regulations, regardless of sex, age, marital status, race and terms of appointment.
(d) After graduation from the Police College for 12 months, officers may be nominated to receive PTU training. The current waiting time is around two to four years with no difference between male and female police officers.
2870 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Rateable Values of Properties
11. MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Chinese): President, will the Government inform this Council of the respective numbers, percentages and cumulative percentages of assessed properties broken down by their monthly rateable values as at (i) 1 April 2011, (ii) 1 April 2012 and (iii) 1 April 2013 (set out by year in tables of the same format as the following)? as at 1 April Assessed properties Monthly rateable values Number Percentage Cumulative percentage Below $5,000 $5,000 to $10,000 $10,001 to $20,000 $20,001 to $30,000 $30,001 to $40,000 $40,001 to $50,000 $50,001 to $60,000 $60,001 to $70,000 $70,001 to $80,000 $80,001 to $90,000 $90,001 to $100,000 $100,001 to $120,000 $120,001 to $140,000 $140,001 to $160,000 $160,001 to $180,000 $180,001 to $200,000 $200,001 or above
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Chinese): President, information on the rateable values of assessed tenements for the years referred to in the question is tabulated below:
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2871
(i) Assessed Properties by Rateable Value Range as at 1 April 2011
Monthly Rateable Value Number of Cumulative Percentage Range ($) Assessments Percentage Less than 5,000 977 943 41.3 41.3 5,000 to 10,000 827 490 34.9 76.2 10,001 to 20,000 342 859 14.5 90.7 20,001 to 30,000 86 272 3.6 94.3 30,001 to 40,000 41 088 1.7 96.1 40,001 to 50,000 23 134 1.0 97.0 50,001 to 60,000 14 316 0.6 97.6 60,001 to 70,000 9 692 0.4 98.0 70,001 to 80,000 7 072 0.3 98.3 80,001 to 90,000 5 487 0.2 98.6 90,001 to 100,000 3 921 0.2 98.7 100,001 to 120,000 5 648 0.2 99.0 120,001 to 140,000 3 810 0.2 99.1 140,001 to 160,000 2 804 0.1 99.3 160,001 to 180,000 2 190 0.1 99.3 180,001 to 200,000 1 643 0.1 99.4 200,001 or above 13 836 0.6 100.0 Total 2 369 205 100.0 -
(ii) Assessed Properties by Rateable Value Range as at 1 April 2012
Monthly Rateable Value Number of Percentage Cumulative Range ($) Assessments Percentage Less than 5,000 858 667 36.0 36.0 5,000 to 10,000 881 793 37.0 73.0 10,001 to 20,000 396 283 16.6 89.6 20,001 to 30,000 96 881 4.1 93.6 30,001 to 40,000 47 327 2.0 95.6 40,001 to 50,000 24 906 1.0 96.7 50,001 to 60,000 15 811 0.7 97.3 60,001 to 70,000 10 869 0.5 97.8 70,001 to 80,000 8 058 0.3 98.1 2872 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Monthly Rateable Value Number of Percentage Cumulative Range ($) Assessments Percentage 80,001 to 90,000 5 828 0.2 98.4 90,001 to 100,000 4 809 0.2 98.6 100,001 to 120,000 6 316 0.3 98.8 120,001 to 140,000 4 434 0.2 99.0 140,001 to 160,000 3 259 0.1 99.2 160,001 to 180,000 2 453 0.1 99.3 180,001 to 200,000 1 860 0.1 99.3 200,001 or above 15 734 0.7 100.0 Total 2 385 288 100.0 -
(iii) Assessed Properties by Rateable Value Range as at 1 April 2013
Monthly Rateable Value Number of Percentage Cumulative Range ($) Assessments Percentage Less than 5,000 715 318 29.8 29.8 5,000 to 10,000 926 176 38.6 68.4 10,001 to 20,000 478 275 19.9 88.3 20,001 to 30,000 112 733 4.7 93.0 30,001 to 40,000 52 035 2.2 95.2 40,001 to 50,000 27 261 1.1 96.3 50,001 to 60,000 17 802 0.7 97.0 60,001 to 70,000 12 427 0.5 97.6 70,001 to 80,000 8 908 0.4 97.9 80,001 to 90,000 6 280 0.3 98.2 90,001 to 100,000 5 225 0.2 98.4 100,001 to 120,000 7 301 0.3 98.7 120,001 to 140,000 4 933 0.2 98.9 140,001 to 160,000 3 640 0.2 99.1 160,001 to 180,000 2 765 0.1 99.2 180,001 to 200,000 2 089 0.1 99.3 200,001 or above 17 362 0.7 100.0 Total 2 400 530 100.0 -
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2873
Hospice Service for Pets
12. MISS ALICE MAK (in Chinese): President, since its cessation of public cremation service for animals in 1999, the Government disposes of animal carcasses collected only by sending them to landfills. Members of the public who need hospice or cremation service for pets can only patronize private companies which provide such service (hospice service companies), resulting in continuous increase in the number of such companies in recent years. However, some members of the public have pointed out that as the Government does not regulate such kind of companies, the rights and interests of consumers lack protection and the cremation service concerned often causes environmental hygiene problems which affect residents in the neighbourhood. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of animal carcasses collected by the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD) in each of the past five years, with a breakdown by animal type;
(b) whether it knows the number of hospice service companies in each of the past five years, with a breakdown by building type of the premises where cremation service is provided;
(c) of the number of complaints relating to hospice service companies received by the authorities in each of the past five years, with a breakdown by the content of such complaints (including the business practices, quality of service, and environmental hygiene problems caused by cremation service, and so on);
(d) whether the authorities had conducted inspections in the past five years to check if hospice service companies and the premises where cremation service was provided had contravened legislation on fire safety, land use or environmental hygiene, and so on; if they had, of the number of inspections conducted each year, with a breakdown of the contravention cases;
(e) whether the authorities will consider afresh regulating hospice service companies by means of licensing; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; how the authorities will effectively 2874 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
address environmental hygiene problems caused by cremation service for pets; and
(f) whether the authorities will consider afresh resuming the provision of cremation service for animals; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, at present, the relevant government departments may, according to their respective mandates, inspect premises of pet hospice services to check compliance with pertinent legislation and requirements, including the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance (Cap. 132), the Air Pollution Control Ordinance (Cap. 311), the Fire Services Ordinance (Cap. 95), the Dangerous Goods Ordinance (Cap. 295), the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123), the land leases, and so on.
Upon receipt of complaints about sanitary nuisance emanating from premises providing pet hospice services, staff of the FEHD will inspect the premises concerned and, where necessary, take enforcement actions under the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance (Cap. 132). For complaints about black smoke or odour emitted in the process of cremating pet carcasses, the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) will carry out inspections and take enforcement actions according to the Air Pollution Control Ordinance (Cap. 311) as necessary. Inspections and enforcement actions as required may also be carried out by the Fire Services Department (FSD) and the Buildings Department (BD) pursuant to the Fire Services Ordinance (Cap. 95), the Dangerous Goods Ordinance (Cap. 295) and the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123) respectively. For substantiated complaints about breaches of lease conditions, the Lands Department (LandsD) will take appropriate lease enforcement actions. Furthermore, under the Trade Descriptions Ordinance (Cap. 362), it is an offence for traders to deploy specified unfair trade practices against consumers, including false trade descriptions to services for supply to consumers.
My reply to the various parts of the question raised by the Member is set out below:
(a) The numbers of animal carcasses collected by the FEHD from its refuse collection points between 2009 and October 2013 are as follows:
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2875
Number of carcasses Number Number of other animals Yearly Year of dog of cat (including rabbits, total carcasses carcasses tortoises, hamsters, snakes, and so on) 2009 5 700 3 150 89 8 939 2010 6 412 2 996 148 9 556 2011 6 236 2 494 156 8 886 2012 7 273 3 470 159 10 902 2013 4 576 2 277 62 6 915 (up to end October) Total 30 197 14 387 614 45 198
(b) According to information available to the Administration, over 10 operators are now providing pet hospice services in the local market. Most of them operate in industrial buildings, and some in commercial buildings or the rural areas. We do not keep information about changes to the number of operators over the past five years.
(c) The numbers of complaints received by the EPD, the FEHD, the LandsD, the FSD and the Consumer Council (CC) related to pet hospice services between January 2009 and October 2013 are as follows:
EPD FEHD LandsD FSD CC (matters of complaint) (over-storage Year (emission (breach of of dangerous (sanitary (consumer of smoke lease goods or nuisance) protection) or odour) conditions) breach of fire safety) 2009 6 3 7 1 0 2010 5 4 4 2 1 2011 14 5 2 2 1 2012 15 8 15 4 0 2876 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
EPD FEHD LandsD FSD CC (matters of complaint) (over-storage Year (emission (breach of of dangerous (sanitary (consumer of smoke lease goods or nuisance) protection) or odour) conditions) breach of fire safety) 2013 3 2 0 2 0 (up to end October) Total 43 22 28 11 2
Notes:
(1) Figures reported by individual departments may overlap because a single complaint may have been handled by more than one department.
(2) The BD does not have complaint figures related to pet hospice services.
(d) The number of inspections conducted by the EPD, the FEHD, the LandsD, the FSD and the BD on premises related to pet hospice services between January 2009 and October 2013 is as follows:
EPD FEHD LandsD FSD BD (suspected breaches) (over-storage (breach of Year (emission (breach of of dangerous (sanitary Buildings of smoke lease goods or nuisance) Ordinance or odour) conditions) breach of fire (Cap. 123)) safety) 2009 21 10 14 5 3 2010 20 10 9 3 1 2011 19 11 10 8 2 2012 41 20 29 5 14 2013 (up to end 41 17 27 3 10 October) Total 142 68 89 24 30
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2877
(e) and (f)
As in other trades, operators of pet hospice services have to comply with the relevant legislation and lease conditions. We are of the view that the existing legislation (including the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance (Cap. 132), the Air Pollution Control Ordinance (Cap. 311), the Fire Services Ordinance (Cap. 95), the Dangerous Goods Ordinance (Cap. 295), the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123) and the Trade Descriptions Ordinance (Cap. 362)) is adequate for regulating issues of air pollution, public health, consumer protection, and so on, that may arise from the operation of pet hospice services. The Administration has no plan to set up a separate licensing system.
In general, pet carcasses are not regarded as clinical waste. Provided that basic personal hygiene measures are taken, the risk of disease transmission through pet carcasses is very low. Infectious diseases of pets that are of serious concern to public health are uncommon. For disposal of pet carcasses by the FEHD, pet owners or the relevant organizations should wrap up the pet carcasses properly in bags and deliver them to the refuse collection points managed by the FEHD. The pet carcasses will be safely disposed of as with other municipal solid waste at landfills, which are well designed in engineering terms to guard against ground water and other contamination. We consider such practices acceptable from the perspective of public health. Therefore, the Administration has no plan to introduce public cremation services for pets.
Prevention of Tax Base Erosion and Profit Shifting
13. MR KENNETH LEUNG: President, in July 2013, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) launched an Action Plan on Base Erosion and Profit Shifting, identifying 15 specific actions needed to tackle aggressive tax planning in respect of profits being shifted to locations where there is little or no real activity but the taxes are low, resulting in little or no overall corporate tax being paid. The Action Plan was endorsed by the Finance Ministers of the Group of Twenty (G20) at their July 2013 meeting in Moscow as 2878 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 well as the G20 heads of state at their meeting in Saint Petersburg in September 2013. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) what actions it has taken to complement the Action Plan; and
(b) whether it has imminent plans to introduce a more comprehensive transfer pricing regime into the Inland Revenue Ordinance (Cap. 112) to replace the current departmental practice note 46 issued by the Inland Revenue Department (IRD)?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY: President,
(a) Hong Kong has been closely monitoring the latest development in respect of the Action Plan on Base Erosion and Profit Shifting initiated by the OECD. In the light of development, we will embark on studies and engage local stakeholders for appropriate follow-up actions in due course.
(b) Currently, the IRD has set out in its Departmental Interpretation and Practice Notes No. 46 the methodologies and practices adopted for dealing with transfer pricing issues. The basis of operation generally follows the guiding principles provided in the OECD Transfer Pricing Guidelines. The regime has been operating well since implementation in 2009. The IRD has no plan at this juncture to change the current practices. Nonetheless, the IRD will closely monitor international development in this respect, including OECD's discussions, with a view to assessing the need for introducing corresponding measures. We will consult local stakeholders in due course.
Professionals Providing Treatment for People Suffering from Emotional Problems
14. DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Chinese): President, according to a report released by the World Health Organization in 2001, approximately 25% of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2879 individuals across the world developed one or more mental or behavioural disorders during their lifetime. It was projected that depression would become the second leading disease in the world by the year 2020. In recent years, there have been newspaper reports from time to time on cases about people suffering from emotional problems committing suicide or inflicting injuries on their family members. Emotional problems have become more prevalent among the people of Hong Kong. Statistics also show that one in every five people in Hong Kong suffers from emotional problems to a certain extent, and there is a rising demand for professionals who assist in solving emotional problems in the community. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it knows the numbers of patients (including new and old cases) on the waiting lists of public psychiatric specialist out-patient clinics (SOPCs) and the waiting time, with a breakdown by District Council district; if such information is unavailable, of the reasons for that;
(b) whether it knows the numbers of counsellors, psychologists and psychiatrists currently practising in Hong Kong; if such information is unavailable, of the reasons for that;
(c) whether it knows the information such as the numbers of places and the duration of study, and so on, about the counselling and psychology programmes (including both first-degree and master degree programmes) offered by various tertiary institutions at present, as well as the statistics on graduates working in the relevant professions; if such information is unavailable, of the reasons for that;
(d) of the channels and means for the registration of counsellors, psychologists and psychiatrists in Hong Kong; if such information is unavailable, of the reasons for that;
(e) whether it knows the names of the organizations currently providing training for counsellors, psychologists and psychiatrists which have yet to be recognized by the Government, as well as the reasons for 2880 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
such organizations not being recognized yet; if such information is unavailable, of the reasons for that;
(f) whether the authorities will consider allocating additional funding for developing counselling and psychology programmes (including both first-degree and master degree programmes); if they will not, of the reasons for that;
(g) whether the authorities will consider subsidizing family doctors to take diploma courses on psychiatry, so that they will be well qualified with adequate professional knowledge for treating patients suffering from mild emotional problems, with a view to reducing the number of cases in which the patients have to wait for treatment at public psychiatric SOPCs; if they will not, of the reasons for that; and
(h) whether the authorities will consider allocating additional resources in future for enhancing the support services provided to members of the public suffering from emotional problems; if they will not, of the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President,
(a), (g) and (h)
In 2012-2013, more than 195 000 persons with mental health problems received treatment and support through the hospitals and psychiatric SOPCs of the Hospital Authority (HA). Among them, about 30 000 were first attendances. As at 31 March 2013, there were 334 doctors (including psychiatrists), 2 073 nurses, 54 clinical psychologists, 189 occupational therapists and 243 medical social workers in the psychiatric departments of the HA providing various in-patient, out-patient and outreach psychiatric services. New cases received at SOPCs will be triaged into priority 1, priority 2 and routine cases according to their severity and urgency. The HA seeks to keep the median waiting time for first appointment at SOPCs for priority 1 and priority 2 cases within two and eight weeks LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2881
respectively to ensure that more urgent and severe cases are followed up promptly. This performance pledge has been fulfilled. In 2012-2013, the overall median waiting time for first appointment at SOPCs was seven weeks. As the HA service statistics are maintained on a hospital cluster basis, we do not have breakdown by District Council constituency areas.
To enhance support for patients with mild mental illness, the HA launched the Integrated Mental Health Programme in 2010. In 2011-2012, the service was expanded to cover all hospital clusters, providing timely support for patients in the primary care settings. Under the Programme, diagnosis and treatment are provided at designated general out-patient clinics in all seven clusters of the HA for patients with mild mental illness in the primary care settings through multi-disciplinary team led by family medicine specialists and general practitioners.
In addition, in order to enhance the support for patients with common mental disorders such as emotional distress, anxiety disorder and depression, the HA started to set up Common Mental Disorder Clinics at psychiatric SOPCs in its seven clusters in 2010. These clinics help strengthen the assessment and treatment services for patients with common mental disorders.
To further promote mental health, the Food and Health Bureau set up a Review Committee on Mental Health in May this year. The Committee is tasked to review existing mental health policies so as to map out the future development of mental health services in Hong Kong. The Food and Health Bureau and the HA will continue listening to views of different parties and working closely with the relevant departments to improve and enhance psychiatric services according to the needs of the community.
(b) and (d)
Established under the Hong Kong Academy of Medicine Ordinance (Cap. 419), the Hong Kong Academy of Medicine is responsible for organizing, monitoring, assessing and accrediting all medical 2882 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
specialist training. There are 15 colleges under the Academy, including the College of Psychiatrists. Any medical practitioner who wishes to apply for fellowship must sit for and pass the examination conducted by the Academy.
To become a psychiatrist, an applicant should first register as a general practitioner under the Medical Registration Ordinance (Cap. 161) and then apply to the Medical Council of Hong Kong (MCHK) for registration of specialist qualification. An applicant may register as a specialist if the MCHK is satisfied that he has been awarded a Fellowship of the Hong Kong Academy of Medicine, or has been certified by the Academy that he has achieved a professional standard comparable to that recognized by the Academy for the award of its fellowship and fulfilled the relevant statutory requirements. As at 31 March 2013, there were a total of 280 psychiatrists listed in the Specialist Register of the MCHK.
As there is no statutory registration system for counsellors and psychologists, we do not have information about their registration and practice.
(c) The number of student intakes and the total number of students enrolled in psychology and counselling programmes (including funded and self-financing undergraduate programmes and taught postgraduate programmes) offered by the University Grants Committee (UGC) institutions in the past three years (that is, from 2010-2011 to 2012-2013 academic years) are set out in Annex 1. Statistics on the employment situation of graduates from UGC-funded programmes from 2010 to 2012 are set out in Annex 2. The Education Bureau does not have information on the employment situation of graduates from the relevant self-financing programmes.
(e) All local post-secondary programmes, including psychology and counselling programmes, are required to undergo quality assurance before they can be offered in Hong Kong. UGC-funded and self-financing programmes offered by institutions with self-accrediting status are subject to the internal quality assurance procedures stipulated by the institutions concerned, whereas LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2883
programmes offered by other institutions are accredited by the Hong Kong Council for Accreditation of Academic and Vocational Qualifications (HKCAAVQ). However, it should be noted that neither successful self-accreditation nor accreditation by the HKCAAVQ could be deemed as being equivalent to professionally recognized.
(f) The UGC institutions normally conduct academic planning on a triennial basis. Generally speaking, the UGC-funded sector enjoys a high degree of autonomy. An institution can offer programmes on different academic disciplines according to the needs of the community as well as its own development direction. It may, after discussions among its faculties, departments and colleges, propose expansion of and adjustment to individual programmes. However, the Government will make specific manpower requirement targets for a few disciplines such as medicine, nursing, paramedical profession and teacher training because their graduates are mainly employed by the public sector and the major training body is the UGC-funded sector.
Since the UGC-funded undergraduate programmes in psychology are not subject to a specific manpower requirement target, the UGC-funded sector has the right to decide the number of places offered. However, specific manpower requirement targets are set for the taught postgraduate programmes in clinical psychology and educational psychology. In this regard, the number of places for the taught postgraduate programmes in clinical psychology increased from 12, 31, 12 in the respective years of the 2009-2012 triennium to 38, 19, 38 in the 2012-2015 triennium. As regards the taught postgraduate programmes in educational psychology, the number of places was maintained at 15 and 25 in alternate years in the 2009-2012 triennium and remains so in the 2012-2015 triennium. The Government will continue to assess and monitor the relevant demand with a view to determining the number of places for the relevant programmes after the 2012-2015 triennium.
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Annex 1
Student Intakes and Enrolment of UGC-funded Undergraduate and Taught Postgraduate Programmes Relating to Psychology, 2010-2011 to 2012-2013
headcount
First-year and Student Enrolment Senior Year Intake
Level New/Old Mode 2010- 2011- 2012- 2010- 2011- 2012- of Academic Institution Programme Name of Duration 2011 2012 2013 2011 2012 2013 Study Structure Study
Ug Old CityU Bachelor of Social FT 3 44 48 32 127 119 105
Academic Sciences in Psychology
Structure CUHK Bachelor of Social FT 3 75 81 62 262 269 261
Sciences in Psychology
HKU Bachelor of Social FT 3 195 203 213 576 581 594
Sciences#
New CityU Bachelor of FT 4 NA NA 437 NA NA 437
Academic Arts/Bachelor of Social
Structure* Sciences (College of
Liberal Arts and Social
Sciences)^
CUHK Bachelor of Social FT 4 NA NA 44 NA NA 44
Science in Psychology
Broad-based ― Social FT 4 NA NA 97 NA NA 97
Science^
HKIEd Bachelor of Social FT 4 NA NA 36 NA NA 36
Sciences in Psychology
HKUST Bachelor of Science FT 4 NA NA 52 NA NA 52
(School of Humanities
and Social Science)^
HKU Bachelor of Social FT 4 NA NA 193 NA NA 193
Sciences^ LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2885
headcount
First-year and Student Enrolment Senior Year Intake
Level New/Old Mode 2010- 2011- 2012- 2010- 2011- 2012- of Academic Institution Programme Name of Duration 2011 2012 2013 2011 2012 2013 Study Structure Study TPg NA CUHK Master of Social FT 2 12 11 19 25 24 33 Science in Clinical Psychology PolyU Master of Educational FT 2 - 14 - 15 14 14
and Child Psychology HKU Master of Social FT 2 19 - 19 23 17 21 Sciences (Clinical Psychology) Master of Social FT 2 21 - 23 24 20 26 Sciences (Educational Psychology)
Notes:
# The programme provides various academic disciplines under social sciences. Students can select psychology or other social science discipline as their majors.
* To tie in with the implementation of the new academic structure, UGC-funded institutions have admitted two cohorts of students under the old and new academic structures in the 2012-2013 academic year. Programmes under new academic structure started to admit students as from 2012-2013 academic year.
^ With the implementation of broad-based admission under new academic structure, students do not need to select majors in the first year of study. They can select psychology or other disciplines as their major upon progression to senior year of study.
- denotes "nil".
NA denotes "Not applicable".
(1) Abbreviations for Institutions are as follows: CityU City University of Hong Kong CUHK The Chinese University of Hong Kong HKIEd The Hong Kong Institute of Education PolyU The Hong Kong Polytechnic University HKU University of Hong Kong
(2) Abbreviations for level of study are as follows: Ug Undergraduate TPg Taught postgraduate
2886 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Annex 1 (con'td.)
Number of Intakes and Enrolments of Self-financing Degree and Taught Postgraduate Programmes relating to Psychology and Counselling for Academic Years 2010-2011 to 2012-2013
No. of persons Intake Enrolment Mode of 2010- 2011- 2012- 2010- 2011- 2012- Level Institution Programme Duration Study 2011 2012 2013 2011 2012 2013 Top-up City Bachelor of Arts Part-time 3 78 77 - 250 248 179 Degree University of (Honours) in Social Work Hong Kong with Minor in Counselling (Top-up Degree) School of Bachelor of Social Full-time 2 76 79 69 137 137 135 Continuing Sciences (Honours) in Education of Psychology (Top-Up the Hong Degree) Kong Baptist University The Hong BA (Hons) in Applied Part-time 4 59 57 54 178 199 186 Kong Psychology Polytechnic University Hong Kong Conversion Programme for Part-time 1 91 - - 91 - - Shue Yan BSSc (Hons) in University Counselling & Psychology Conversion Programme for Part-time 1 - 71 - - 71 - BSSc (Hons) in Psychology Degree Hong Kong Bachelor of Social Full-time 4 44 45 45 160 172 170 Shue Yan Sciences with Honours in University Psychology Bachelor of Social Full-time 4 94 97 101 359 365 364 Sciences with Honours in Counselling and Psychology The Open Bachelor of Social Full-time 4 - - 33 - - 33 University of Sciences with Honours in Hong Kong Psychology (4-year Full-time) Bachelor of Social Full-time 3 51 62 - 159 169 - Sciences (Hons) in Psychology (Full-time) Bachelor of Social Full-time 3 - - 32 - - 143 Sciences with Honours in Psychology (3-year Full-time) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2887
No. of persons Intake Enrolment Mode of 2010- 2011- 2012- 2010- 2011- 2012- Level Institution Programme Duration Study 2011 2012 2013 2011 2012 2013 Taught University of Postgraduate Certificate in Full-time 1 11 16 15 11 16 15 Postgraduate Hong Kong Psychology Postgraduate Certificate in Part-time 2 15 10 8 29 28 20 Psychology Doctor of Psychology Part-time 3 4 4 3 24 20 17 The Chinese Doctor of Psychology in Part-time 3 2 1 3 9 9 11 University of Clinical Psychology Hong Kong Postgraduate Diploma in Full-time 1 14 8 2 14 9 3 Psychology Master of Arts in Family Part-time 2 62 48 49 116 104 101 Counselling and Family Education Master of Arts in School Part-time 2 35 37 40 83 80 81 Guidance and Counselling City Postgraduate Diploma in Part-time 2 - - - 20 7 4 University of Psychology Hong Kong Master of Social Sciences Part-time 2 76 76 77 193 202 207 in Counselling Master of Social Sciences Part-time 2 27 26 30 53 50 50 in Psychology of Education Master of Social Sciences Part-time 2 92 77 74 181 175 171 in Applied Psychology Hong Kong Master of Social Sciences Part-time 2 20 28 27 45 50 58 Baptist in Youth Counselling University (Part-time) The Hong Postgraduate Diploma in Part-time 1.5 - 18 20 - 28 35 Kong Psychology (Schools and Institute of Community Settings) Education (Part-time) Postgraduate Diploma in Full-time 1 - - 5 - - 6 Psychology (Schools and Community Settings) (Full-time) The Hong MA in School Guidance Part-time 3 - - - 9 - - Kong and Counselling Polytechnic MA in Guidance and Full-time 1.5 - 12 12 3 12 21 University Counselling MA in Guidance and Part-time 3 51 38 37 103 109 105 Counselling Master of Applied Full-time 1 - - 32 - - 32 Psychology Hong Kong Postgraduate Diploma in Part-time 1.7 - - 15 - - 15 Shue Yan Psychology University Master of Social Sciences Full-time 2 18 15 17 18 31 32 in Counselling Psychology (Full-time) Master of Social Sciences Part-time 4 6 6 3 6 12 14 in Counselling Psychology (Part-time)
Note:
- denotes "nil".
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Annex 2
Employment Situation of Graduates of UGC-funded Undergraduate and Taught Postgraduate Programmes Relating to Psychology, 2010 to 2011
Employment Situation Level Total Responded Response Full-time Further Graduation Programme Other of Institution Graduate Graduates Rate Employment Studies Year Name Study No. No. % % No. % No. % No. % Bachelor of 66 53 (100%) (80%) 46 (87%) 5 (9%) 2 (4%) Social 2010 Ug CityU Sciences in Psychology Bachelor of 54 52 (100%) (96%) 37 (71%) 13 (25%) 2 (4%) Social CUHK Sciences in Psychology Bachelor of 170 163 (100%) (96%) 120 (74%) 32 (20%) 11 (7%) HKU Social Sciences# Master of 11 10 (100%) (91%) 10 (100%) - - - - Social Science TPg CUHK in Clinical Psychology Master of 13 13 (100%) (100%) 12 (92%) - - 1 (8%) Social HKU Sciences (Clinical Psychology) Master of 17 14 (100%) (82%) 14 (100%) - - - - Social HKU Sciences (Educational Psychology) Total 331 305 (100%) (92%) 239 (78%) 50 (16%) 16 (5%) Bachelor of 55 47 (100%) (85%) 37 (79%) 4 (9%) 6 (13%) Social 2011 Ug CityU Sciences in Psychology Bachelor of 76 72 (100%) (95%) 46 (64%) 22 (31%) 4 (6%) Social CUHK Sciences in Psychology Bachelor of 192 183 (100%) (95%) 146 (80%) 30 (16%) 7 (4%) HKU Social Sciences# Master of 11 9 (100%) (82%) 9 (100%) - - - - Social Science TPg CUHK in Clinical Psychology Master of 15 13 (100%) (87%) 13 (100%) - - - - Educational PolyU and Child Psychology Master of 3 2 (100%) (67%) 2 (100%) - - - - Social HKU Sciences (Clinical Psychology) Master of 3 3 (100%) (100%) 3 (100%) - - - - Social HKU Sciences (Educational Psychology) Total 355 329 (100%) (93%) 256 (78%) 56 (17%) 17 (5%) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2889
Employment Situation Level Total Responded Response Full-time Further Graduation Programme Other of Institution Graduate Graduates Rate Employment Studies Year Name Study No. No. % % No. % No. % No. % Bachelor of 44 34 (100%) (77%) 33 (97%) - - 1 (3%) Social 2012 Ug CityU Sciences in Psychology Bachelor of 78 68 (100%) (87%) 40 (59%) 22 (32%) 6 (9%) Social CUHK Sciences in Psychology Bachelor of 184 171 (100%) (93%) 113 (66%) 40 (23%) 18 (11%) HKU Social Sciences# Master of 10 6 (100%) (60%) 6 (100%) - - - - Social Science TPg CUHK in Clinical Psychology Master of 15 13 (100%) (87%) 13 (100%) - - - - Social HKU Sciences (Clinical Psychology) Master of 16 14 (100%) (88%) 14 (100%) - - - - Social HKU Sciences (Educational Psychology) Total 347 306 (100%) (88%) 219 (72%) 62 (20%) 25 (8%)
Notes:
(1) The employment information of graduates from full-time UGC-funded programmes in a given year is collected through the Graduate Employment Survey which is conducted annually by the UGC-funded institutions with a time frame up to December of the same year.
(2) Percentages may not add up to 100% owing to rounding.
(3) Abbreviations for Institutions are as follows: CityU City University of Hong Kong CUHK The Chinese University of Hong Kong PolyU The Hong Kong Polytechnic University HKU University of Hong Kong
(4) Abbreviations for level of study are as follows: Ug Undergraduate TPg Taught postgraduate
# The programme provides various academic disciplines under social sciences. Students can select psychology or other social science discipline as their majors.
- denotes "nil".
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Provision of Additional Resources to Promote Use of Information Technology in Schools
15. DR ELIZABETH QUAT (in Chinese): President, some members from the information technology (IT) and education sectors have relayed to me that the world has entered the digital era and various countries have experienced rapid developments in electronic teaching and learning (in particular wireless learning). They have also pointed out that although the Government has launched three IT in Education strategies, at present IT education in secondary and primary schools places emphasis only on teaching word processing software and Internet browsing skills, and so on, rather than the latest IT knowledge. Moreover, they have also criticized the Government for the slow progress in comprehensive development of information network infrastructures in schools as well as updating IT teaching and learning tools, and so on. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it has plans to provide the secondary and primary schools in Hong Kong with comprehensive and free Wi-Fi network coverage; if it has, of the details and the implementation timetable; if not, the reasons for that;
(b) whether it has plans to implement the policy of "one computer per student" in the secondary and primary schools in Hong Kong and encourage students to bring their own mobile devices for learning purpose in order to enhance the effectiveness of electronic learning; if it has, of the details and the implementation timetable; of the measures in place to provide subsidies to students in need so as to eliminate the obstacles faced by students of poor families in pursuing online learning, in order to ensure that they enjoy equal learning opportunities; if not, of the reasons for that;
(c) whether it has plans to allocate additional resources to help schools procure computers and wireless network equipment of the most advanced models, and to recycle outdated IT equipment; if it has, of the details and the implementation timetable; if not, the reasons for that;
(d) whether it has plans to invite the IT sector to collaborate with it to have IT staff in place of teachers to take charge of the professional LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2891
work of network equipment maintenance and management so that teachers can concentrate on their teaching work; if it has, of the details and the implementation timetable; if not, the reasons for that;
(e) whether it has plans to provide regular training to teachers and schools' technical staff to ensure the effective implementation of electronic teaching and learning in schools; if it has, of the details and the implementation timetable; if not, the reasons for that;
(f) with the advent of the era of the second-generation Internet, whether it has plans to reform the curricula of secondary and primary schools, and to co-operate with the IT and the publishing sectors in providing the corresponding technical support and developing teaching materials, so as to promote c-learning (that is, with emphases on collaborative, contributory and creative learning) for guiding students in the process of learning to exchange among themselves, collaborate with and learn from one another, and work together to achieve the learning objectives of the curricula; if it has, of the details and the implementation timetable; if not, the reasons for that; and
(g) whether it has plans to introduce programming courses using the most advanced computer languages into the curricula of all secondary and primary schools in Hong Kong in order to lay a foundation for nurturing IT talents; if it has, of the details and the implementation timetable; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President,
(a) In line with the global trend of harnessing technology to facilitate effective learning and teaching for a knowledge-based society, the Government is committed to the promotion of IT in education, and has invested over $9 billion dollars since the 1998-1999 school year for the implementation of a wide range of policy initiatives and school support measures in this area, including the two phases of e-Textbook Market Development Scheme (EMADS). In the implementation of EMADS, both the partner schools participating in the try-out of e-textbooks as well as the developers consider that the 2892 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
existing IT infrastructure in schools should be enhanced to facilitate the flexible and effective adoption of e-textbooks in class. In the recently launched consultation document on "2014 Digital 21 Strategy", the provision of Wi-Fi connection in schools is proposed, among others. In this connection, the Education Bureau will initiate a proposal to create an effective digital learning environment for schools which will use e-textbooks actively in e-learning by upgrading their Wi-Fi facilities.
(b) The basic concept of e-learning is that students can learn with the aid of computers, access to the Internet and e-textbooks or other e-learning resources. For learning in class, student-teacher interaction and student-student interaction should be the focus. Computers should be considered as supporting tools for application at "the right time and for the right task". As in the case of using printed textbooks, students do not need to use computers all the time in class. We, however, note that the decreasing prices of mobile computing devices, yet coupled with more enriched functions and content will make "Bring-Your-Own-Device" (BYOD) for learning become a trend. We will, on one hand, keep in view the development of e-learning in schools with a view to offering support, where appropriate. On the other hand, the Government has taken a two-pronged approach to assist needy students to learn at home through Internet. It includes the granting of subsidy to needy families to pay for Internet access charges and to acquire necessary computing equipment; and the implementation of the "Internet Learning Support Programme" to enable effective use of the subsidy as well as to provide free training and support services.
(c) and (d)
The Education Bureau has been disbursing the "Composite Information Technology Grant" (CITG) to all public sector schools annually. Under the principle of school-based management, schools can make use of the grant according to their own needs in upgrading and replacement of their IT facilities. For recycling of outdated IT equipment, schools can make use of the recycling scheme launched regularly by the Environmental Protection Department.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2893
Schools can also make use of the CITG to hire technical support personnel direct or to hire full/partial technical support services through outsourcing. The Education Bureau will review from time to time the need and arrangements in this area with a view to providing appropriate resources to support the development of IT in education.
(e) The Education Bureau provides regular training programmes for teachers and technical support personnel in the promotion of e-learning in schools. Some of the courses are co-organized with the IT industry. During the 2012-2013 school year, we offered 390 programmes on e-learning, leadership and management and technical aspects with an attendance rate of about 6 500. The Education Bureau will review the training programmes annually and revise the course content taking into account the needs of teachers and technical support personnel. Relevant information about the training programmes will be uploaded onto our website for their reference and online enrolment.
(f) IT has developed rapidly with wide application. It certainly benefits the learning and teaching process. The Government has pursued IT in education since 1998-1999 school year by phases with significant amount of investment in resources. In addition, in 2000, after extensive consultation, the Education Commission established that the aims of education should be to promote all-round development for all students, according to their attributes, and life long learning. Since then, education and curriculum reforms are gradually introduced. At present, regarding curriculum provision, there are two ways of how students learn IT knowledge and skills and use them for learning:
(i) Using IT skill is one of the nine generic skills in the curriculum and is deployed in learning and teaching activities across different Key Learning Areas (KLAs) or subjects so as to enable students to conduct interactive/self–directed learning. To cope with the use of IT in learning and teaching, the Education Bureau has established the One-Stop Portal to provide learning and teaching resources of different KLAs for teachers' reference.
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(ii) IT knowledge and concepts are included in the subject General Studies and the Computer Awareness Programme at primary levels, as well as computer subjects (including Computer Literacy at junior secondary level, Information and Communication Technology (ICT) at senior secondary level) in the Technology Education KLA to nurture student with IT knowledge, skill and attitude. There is flexibility in the learning elements so that teachers can introduce the latest technologies in their teaching, such as Internet and relevant topics so as to arouse students' interest. In 2012, the TEKLA curriculum at junior secondary level is enriched, including the updating and enriching of learning elements under "Information and Communication Technology".
On the other hand, in order to facilitate the use of IT in teaching and learning in school, encourage self-directed and life long learning for students, as well as to co-operate with the IT sector and the publishers to devise related technical support and learning and teaching materials, the Education Bureau launched a three-year "Pilot Scheme on e-Learning in Schools" in 2010. Through collaborative partnership with other sectors including tertiary institutes, IT sector, publishers and other services providers, the participating schools could develop e-learning resources to cater for the needs of schools, teachers and students on commercially viable business models. Likewise, the Education Bureau has also launched EMADS since 2012, aiming to facilitate and encourage the participation of potential and aspiring e-textbook developers to develop a diverse range of e-textbooks in line with our local curricula, with a view to providing an alternative to printed textbooks as well as gearing up a new, healthy, rich and sustainable e-textbook market. We expect that the first batch of e-textbooks developed under the EMADS will be available in the market for schools to use in the 2014-2015 school year.
(g) At present, programming is introduced in primary and secondary schools through relevant computer subjects to develop students' logical thinking skills. It enables students to apply IT to solve problems and prepares them for further studies or future career.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2895
(i) At primary level, the Education Bureau has developed eight modules of Computer Awareness Programme, including basic programming so as to enable students to grasp the basic programming skills.
(ii) At secondary level, schools teach programming under the TEKLA at junior secondary level to enable students to learn programming and problem solving skills. Students can choose to study ICT as an elective subject at senior secondary level to have an in-depth study of programming, including mobile applications design.
In addition, schools may strengthen and develop students' logical thinking and problem solving skills through learning and teaching in mathematics, science and other learning areas. The Education Bureau has always been keen to cultivate students' interest in programming. We have worked with professional organizations to organize the Hong Kong Olympiad in Informatics for students annually.
Combating Offer of Discounts on Taxi Fares by Using Mobile Applications
16. MR CHRISTOPHER CHUNG (in Chinese): President, I have recently received a complaint from a taxi association, alleging that quite a number of taxi drivers offering fare discounts to passengers (commonly known as "discount gangs") are soliciting business by making use of taxi-call service mobile applications, which can be downloaded by the public for free. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of taxi drivers convicted of offering fare discounts in the past five years, and the highest penalty imposed on them by the Court; whether it has taken measures or actions to combat the business practices of discount gangs, so as to safeguard the livelihood of those tax drivers who charge fares according to taximeters; if so, of the details;
(b) regarding the discount gangs' practice of using mobile applications as a platform for soliciting business, of the measures the authorities have in place to combat such business practice; and
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(c) given that some members of the public and members of the taxi trade have pointed out that as the discount gangs often check the screens of their smart phones for messages and operate their mobile phones manually to reply clients' calls while driving, traffic accidents are prone to occur as a result of distraction, whether the authorities prosecuted any taxi driver of operating smart phones while driving in the past three years; if so, of the details; and whether measures are in place to curb using mobile applications by taxi drivers while driving?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, taxis play a key role in our public transport service network. There are currently over 18 000 taxis in Hong Kong, providing personalized, point-to-point and more comfortable public transport services to the public. The average daily taxi patronage is about 0.9 million. The Government has all along been striving to assist the trade in maintaining quality taxi services. In terms of legal framework, taxi operation is regulated by the Road Traffic Ordinance (Cap. 374) and its subsidiary legislation. The police take vigorous enforcement actions against malpractices, and the Transport Department (TD) reminds the taxi trade to abide by the law through close communication with them. The TD also disseminates information to passengers through different channels.
The reply to various parts of Mr Christopher CHUNG's question is as follows:
(a) and (b)
According to the "soliciting" behaviour prescribed under regulation 40 of the Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations (Cap. 374D), if any taxi driver or his/her representative in any manner attracts or endeavours to attract any person in order to induce such person to make use of his/her vehicle, he/she commits an offence and is liable to a maximum fine of HK$10,000 and imprisonment for six months. Having regard to the above regulation, any taxi driver who offers fare discounts on his/her own initiative to induce passenger(s) to make use of his/her vehicle is engaging in "soliciting" activities.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2897
Based on the information provided by the police, the number of taxi drivers prosecuted for "soliciting" behaviour during the past five years is shown in the table below. The maximum fine imposed by the Court is HK$4,000.
Year 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Number of taxi drivers prosecuted for "soliciting" 101 103 52 27 51 behaviour
It is worth noting that after the implementation of the taxi fare structure that increases short-haul fares and lowers long-haul fares from late 2008, that is, fare per km for long-haul trips is lower than that for short-haul ones (for instance, an urban taxi journey of above 9 km is classified as a long-haul trip while that of less than 9 km is a short-haul one), the situation whereby a taxi driver would offer fare discounts on his/her own initiative has become less prevalent.
The Government is aware that mobile applications have recently been used as a platform for hiring taxi services. The police are following up on whether any such applications are being used by taxi drivers to offer fare discounts.
In case of any suspected "soliciting" behaviour as described above, members of the public should take note of the date, time and location of the incident as well as the vehicle registration number, and so on, and pass such information to the police for follow-up and investigation. If it is confirmed that a taxi driver offers fare discounts on his/her own initiative to induce passenger(s) to make use of his/her vehicle, the driver may have been engaged in "soliciting" activities irrespective of whether such activities happen on a mobile application platform. The police will take enforcement actions.
Meanwhile, the TD maintains close communication with the taxi trade and reminds drivers not to break the law through various channels. They include regular publications of the Taxi Newsletters, distribution of promotional leaflets and regular 2898 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
meetings with the trade. The TD also reminds passengers through, for example, posting notices inside taxi compartments that they should pay taxi fares according to the meter as required by the law.
(c) The table below shows the number of taxi drivers prosecuted for using mobile phones/telecommunications equipment while holding them in their hands when driving in the past three years.
Year 2010 2011 2012 Number of taxi drivers prosecuted for using mobile phones/telecommunications 952 880 960 equipment while holding them in their hands when driving
If drivers violate traffic regulations or pose danger to other drivers or road users because they are operating smart phones while driving, the police will take enforcement actions (for example, against offences such as careless driving) in accordance with the Road Traffic Ordinance and its subsidiary legislation to ensure road safety.
Online Access to Lands Department's Information
17. MR ALBERT CHAN (in Chinese): President, at present, the website of the Lands Department (LandsD) does not have an online version of demarcation district plans, and the resolution of the preview images of aerial photographs is too low for members of the public to see the images clearly. In addition, digital aerial photographs sold at the Survey and Mapping Office (SMO) of LandsD are hardly affordable to the public as they are much more expensive than paper aerial photographs. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the various types of information of LandsD with online version not yet available;
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2899
(b) why LandsD provides preview images for aerial photographs at low resolution only;
(c) why digital aerial photographs are more expensive than paper aerial photographs; and
(d) whether the authorities will consider uploading the graphical information prepared by LandsD and other government departments onto the relevant websites for free inspection and download by the public; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, the Government has been supporting bureaux/departments to make appropriate use of information and communications technology to provide information and services to the public in an efficient and convenient manner. Bureaux/departments adhere to this policy, and provide government information on their websites for free browse and download by the public as appropriate.
The LandsD, in line with the above policy, has been actively disseminating information online as appropriate. At present, the SMO of the LandsD provides maps in different scales in digital form for general use by the community, in order to meet a variety of purposes such as land administration, town planning, engineering development and emergency. The SMO also provides different kinds of geographic information for free browse and download by the general public.
My reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:
(a) and (d)
The LandsD strives to provide mapping information for free download by the general public. This includes small scale maps, thematic maps and geodetic survey information, and so on. The LandsD has earlier launched an online "GeoInfo Map"
of charge. The LandsD will continue to upload more mapping information onto the "GeoInfo Map" for the public in collaboration with other government departments.
Currently, some survey and mapping information are not yet available online, such as the Demarcation District Sheet, Lot Index Plan and Land Record Sheet, and so on. The LandsD is planning to set up an online platform to provide online version of the relevant information gradually, facilitating the public to purchase various kinds of digitally imaged survey and mapping products.
(b) As aforementioned, the LandsD has made digital maps and photographic maps available via the "GeoInfo Map" to the public for general reference. If needed, members of the public may purchase digital maps of higher resolution through LandsD's "Hong Kong Map Service" online system, which provides digital map products that cover the whole territory of Hong Kong, including digital topographic map, digital land boundary map and digital aerial photo, and so on. The mapping information stored in the database is updated constantly. Members of the public can select and purchase suitable digital map products through the "Hong Kong Map Service" website
(c) The prices of mapping products of the LandsD are on a cost recovery basis. The production cost of an aerial photo depends largely on its resolution, data volume and photo size, rather than solely on the medium on which it is produced (for example, digital or paper form). At present, prices of aerial photos in digital or paper form are in the range of $110 to $905 (the prices of the relevant digital and paper aerial photos are listed in detail respectively on
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2901
Announcement of Price-sensitive Information of Listed Companies
18. MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Chinese): President, the Government announced at around 5 pm on 15 October this year the decision made by the Chief Executive in Council on applications for domestic free television programme service licences (free TV licences) by Hong Kong Television Network Limited, Fantastic Television Limited and Hong Kong Television Entertainment Company Limited. Yet, I have learnt that it had already been rumoured at noon on that day that the Government would announce the issuance of additional free TV licences, and the prices of the stocks of the aforesaid three applicants or their parent companies recorded significant volatility on the day when the application results were announced and on the following day. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the authorities have noticed the volatility of the aforesaid stocks; if they have, whether they have looked into the reasons for such volatility and assessed the situation; whether the authorities will take any follow-up action, including launching an investigation into the incident; if they will not, of the reasons for that;
(b) whether the authorities, before announcing the aforesaid decision on granting free TV licences, had taken any measure to prevent the news about that decision from affecting the prices of the stocks of the applicants or their parent companies; whether they had requested the applicants or their parent companies to apply for a trading halt on the day when the application results were announced; if they had not, of the reasons for that; and
(c) whether the authorities have mechanisms in place at present to require listed companies concerned to apply for a trading halt of their stocks before the announcement of any price-sensitive information, so as to maintain fairness in the market and prevent insider dealings; if they have, of the mechanisms; if not, the reasons for that, as well as the measures in place to protect the interests of the small investors?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Chinese): President, my reply to the three parts of the question is set out below:
2902 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
(a) To ensure fair enforcement of the law, and avoid affecting those who might be investigated and those who might assist in investigations, the Government and the Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) generally will not comment on the volatility of the stocks of individual listed companies. Likewise, the SFC will not comment on whether investigations in relation to individual listing companies are ongoing, nor disclose related details.
(b) The Commerce and Economic Development Bureau informed the applicants of the outcome of their respective applications for domestic free television programme service licences after the closure of the stock market on 15 October 2013 and thereafter held a press conference to announce the outcome of such applications.
(c) Trading halts are used to address both potential and actual market disorder. Hong Kong, similar to other jurisdictions, has arrangements in place for the exchange to implement trading halts to provide an orderly, informed and level-playing securities market.
As trading halts disrupt the proper functioning of the market, the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong's (SEHK) Listing Rules provide that they should only be made where necessary and in the interests of all parties. Also, the duration of any trading halt should be as short as possible. The SEHK would generally agree to a trading halt in the following circumstance if an issuer announcement cannot be made promptly:
(i) an issuer has information which must be disclosed to avoid a false market in its securities where the SEHK is of the view that there is, or there is likely to be, a false market in an issuer's securities; or
(ii) an issuer reasonably believes that there is inside information which must be disclosed under the Inside Information provisions of the Securities and Futures Ordinance (SFO); or
(iii) circumstances where an issuer reasonably believes or it is reasonably likely that confidentiality may have been lost in respect of inside information which:
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2903
- is the subject of an application to the SFC for a waiver; or
- falls within any of the exceptions to the obligation to disclose inside information under the Inside Information provisions in section 307D(2) of the SFO.
Regulation of Sale of Alcoholic Beverages by Retailers to Persons Aged Below 18
19. MR JAMES TIEN (in Chinese): President, some members of the public have relayed to me that as minors (that is, persons aged below 18) can buy alcoholic beverages without restrictions from retail shops such as convenience stores and supermarkets, and so on, at present, they may commit illegal or dangerous acts under the influence of alcohol. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of cases in each of the past three years in which minors allegedly committed illegal or dangerous acts under the influence of alcohol, with a breakdown by type of act;
(b) whether it knows if there is any study report with findings showing that the ready purchase by minors of alcoholic beverages has contributed to an increase in the number of cases in part (a) or the problem of alcohol abuse among young people; if there are such reports, of the details;
(c) whether it has studied if the sale of alcoholic beverages by retail shops to minors is subject to regulation in overseas countries or regions; and
(d) whether there is any existing legislation or measure that regulates the sale of alcoholic beverages by retail shops to minors; if there is, of the details; if not, the reasons for that, and whether it has any plan to impose regulation in this regard; if it has such a plan, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
2904 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, tackling the issue of alcoholic beverage consumption by minors entails efforts in a number of areas.
According to the Dutiable Commodities (Liquor) Regulations (Cap. 109B), only the holder of a liquor licence shall be allowed to sell liquor on appropriate premises and no licensee shall permit any person under the age of 18 years to drink any intoxicating liquor on any licensed premises.
Apart from being the law-enforcement agency for the above legislation, the police is also responsible for maintaining law and order, protecting life and property, as well as taking law-enforcement actions against any unlawful acts in question.
Moreover, reducing alcohol-related harm is an important public health issue that warrants priority action on the part of the Government. As such, the Working Group on Alcohol and Health (Working Group) was set up under the Steering Committee on Prevention and Control of Non-communicable Diseases (Steering Committee) chaired by the Secretary for Food and Health. The Working Group published the "Action Plan to Reduce Alcohol-related Harm in Hong Kong" (Action Plan) in October 2011. It sets out, in detail, 17 items where the Government should collaborate with non-governmental organizations in taking actions to reduce alcohol-related harm, including strengthening surveillance of the profile of drinkers and relevant risks, promoting relevant research, empowering the general public to make informed choices about the use of alcohol, as well as enhancing community awareness and actions, and so on. Measures that target young people are being implemented in phases.
My reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:
(a) The Government does not keep statistics on the number of cases in which minors committed illegal or dangerous acts allegedly under the influence of alcohol.
(b) The 2005 Child Health Survey commissioned by the Department of Health (DH) showed that 5% of children aged 11 to 14 had used alcohol and 0.3% of them were current binge drinkers.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2905
Moreover, more than one third of those children who had consumed alcohol had their first drink before the age of 11. However, the DH has not conducted any study on the illegal or dangerous acts of minors under the influence of alcohol as a result of the convenient availability of alcoholic beverages.
(c) According to the World Health Organization Global Status Report on Alcohol and Health 2011, among the 147 countries which provided information about their policies on control of the availability of alcohol, 23, 22 and 21 countries had not set any restriction on the minimum age for off-premise legal sale and consumption of beer, wine and spirits respectively. The Report shows that while the minimum age for off-premise legal sale and consumption of alcohol is usually set at 18, it ranges from the lowest at 15 (Angola) to the highest at 25 (Nepal).
The Action Plan published by the said Working Group also points out that according to some studies, apart from enforcement actions, other relevant promotional and community activities might also help reduce sale of alcoholic beverages to minors.
(d) In Hong Kong, there is currently no restriction on the sale of alcoholic beverages by retail shops to people aged under 18. However, according to the Action Plan published by the Working Group, some organizations have adopted a voluntary code of conduct to restrict the sale of alcohol to young people. For example, the Hong Kong Retail Management Association, which is the major retail association in Hong Kong with a membership of more than 5 000 retail outlets, states in their code of conduct that its members should not sell any alcoholic beverages to people aged under 18.
The Working Group noted that as shown in overseas studies, setting a minimum age for legal sale of alcoholic beverages is an effective measure to reduce alcohol-related harm. Nevertheless, local studies which can show the effectiveness of these measures in reducing drinking among young people and alcohol-related harm are few and far apart. When the results of more such local studies are available, the Working Group will explore the relevant issues, including 2906 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
whether to advise the authorities to study the regulation of off-premise sale of alcohol and the related age restriction.
In examining whether we should regulate the retail sale of alcoholic beverages to people under a certain age, the Government has to consider a number of factors, including the justifications for restricting the sale of alcoholic beverages to people under the age prescribed, the expected outcome of such regulation, the feasibility and urgency of regulation, as well as the impact of regulation on various sectors of the community, such as the retail industry. Extensive consultation should also be conducted before a decision is taken on whether to introduce such a regulation and the regulatory approach. While the Government does not have at this moment any specific plan on this matter, we will continue to keep an open mind and listen to the views of various stakeholders.
Administrative Guidelines on Promotion of Racial Equality
20. MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Chinese): President, the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau issued the Administrative Guidelines on Promotion of Racial Equality (the Guidelines) in 2010 to provide guidance to the relevant bureaux, departments and other public authorities on promoting racial equality and ensuring equal access to public services by ethnic minorities in the key areas concerned. Moreover, the Centre for Harmony and Enhancement of Ethnic Minority Residents (CHEER), a support service centre for ethnic minorities funded by the Home Affairs Department (HAD), provides interpretation and translation services to facilitate ethnic minorities in using public services. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the respective numbers of occasions of CHEER providing interpretation and translation services and the respective numbers of occasions of government departments using "telephone interpretation service", "on-site (escort) interpretation service", "on-sight interpretation service" and "three-way video conferencing service" provided by CHEER, in each of the past three years;
(b) whether it knows the respective expenditure on implementation of the Guidelines incurred by the relevant bureaux, departments and other LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2907
public authorities (including the Education Bureau, Food and Health Bureau, Department of Health, Labour Department, Social Welfare Department, HAD, Hospital Authority, Vocational Training Council, Employees Retraining Board, Construction Industry Council, Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority, the former Office of the Telecommunications Authority as well as Innovation and Technology Commission) in each of the past three years;
(c) as some social workers have pointed out that quite a number of people from the ethnic minorities seek assistance from the Housing Department (HD) on public housing matters from time to time, why the HD is currently not covered by the Guidelines, and the criteria adopted by the authorities for determining which public services and government departments should be covered by the Guidelines;
(d) of the measures taken in the past three years and those to be taken in the next three years by the authorities to monitor the implementation of the Guidelines by the relevant bureaux, departments and other public authorities; and
(e) as some social workers have relayed to me that quite a number of people from the ethnic minorities are discriminated against in education and employment at present, whether the authorities will, in view of this, review the Guidelines; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, my reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:
(a) At present, the HAD commissions the CHEER to provide interpretation and translation services to assist ethnic minorities in obtaining information related to Government services.
The statistics of interpretation and translation services provided by CHEER in the past three years are as follows:
2908 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Number of occasions used Service 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 Telephone interpretation 1 780 3 304 3 369 and enquiries service (237) (384) (380) On-site (escort) 415 462 515 interpretation service△ (191) (343) (463) On-sight interpretation 119 82 141 service* (N.A.) (N.A.) (N.A.) Written translation 42 56 36 service (32) (45) (26) 2 356 3 904 4 061 Total# (460) (772) (869)
Notes:
△ On-site (escort) interpretation service is provided to ethnic minorities receiving services at government departments such as the Department of Health.
* Under the "on-sight interpretation service", ethnic minorities may bring written documents in English (for example, letters from the HD or school letters to parents) in person to CHEER which has interpreters providing verbal interpretation service in seven ethnic minority languages to assist them in understanding the document. This service is provided with ethnic minorities as the target beneficiary and hence not applicable to government departments.
# Apart from the interpretation and translation services mentioned above, where necessary, arrangement can be made to provide interpretation service to ethnic minorities at three service units of the HD and 10 services units of the Social Welfare Department which are installed with video cameras by way of three-way video conferencing with the interpreters of CHEER. However, no request for such service was received in the past three years.
( ) represents the number of occasions where the services are used by government departments.
(b) to (d)
In 2010, the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau issued the Guidelines to provide general guidance to relevant government bureaux and departments and public authorities (the departments) to promote racial equality and ensure equal access by ethnic minorities LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2909
to public services in key areas concerned, and to take this into account in their formulation, implementation and review of relevant policies and measures.
The Guidelines cover the key public services which are particularly relevant to meeting the special needs of ethnic minorities and facilitating their integration into the community, namely, medical, education, vocational training, employment and major community services. In 2010, the scope of application of the Guidelines included 14 departments (namely the Education Bureau, Social Welfare Department, Labour Department, HAD, Employees Retraining Board, Vocational Training Council, Food and Health Bureau, Department of Health, Hospital Authority, Construction Industry Council, Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, Innovation and Technology Commission, former Office of the Telecommunications Authority and former Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority(1)).
Implementing the Guidelines is an integral part of the work of the departments. Relevant departments will deploy resources in accordance with the policies concerned and the measures to be taken forward so as to ensure that all the measures can be implemented smoothly; a breakdown of the expenditures thus incurred is not available.
In 2013, the scope of application of the Guidelines was extended to eight additional departments (namely the HD, Hong Kong Observatory, Post Office, Legal Aid Department, Hong Kong Police Force, Correctional Services Department, Customs and Excise Department and Immigration Department). In the case of the HD, it has been covered by the Guidelines since September this year. To facilitate ethnic minorities' access to various public housing services, the HD has put in place a number of measures which include uploading leaflets in various ethnic minority languages onto the Housing Authority (HA)/HD website to set out in detail the
(1) On 1 April 2012, former Office of the Telecommunications Authority and former Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority merged to form the Office of the Communications Authority. 2910 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
general information concerning application for public housing; employing two Pakistani Hall Attendants to offer reception and simple interpretation service in the HA Customer Service Centre to the ethnic minorities public housing applicants and providing translation service through CHEER at the request of the ethnic minorities public housing applicants; and promoting racial harmony through estate newsletter, promotional video, poster and partnering community functions jointly organized by the Estate Management Advisory Committee and non-governmental organizations.
According to the Guidelines, the departments should draw up checklists of measures that would assist in promoting racial equality and equal access to key public services to enhance the transparency of their work. The checklists contain contact information of the departments and have been uploaded onto the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau website. Where necessary, the departments will issue updates on the information of the checklists. As reflected by the departments, the Guidelines have been implemented smoothly so far, and relevant measures have received positive feedback from ethnic minority residents.
The Administration will continue to review the implementation of the Guidelines as necessary and consider further extending the coverage of the Guidelines.
(e) Under the Race Discrimination Ordinance, it is unlawful to discriminate another person on the ground of his race in the areas of education and employment. Any ethnic minority person subject to race discrimination in the areas of education and employment may lodge a complaint to the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) and undergo conciliation with the EOC's assistance. If the conciliation fails, the aggrieved person may seek assistance from the EOC to make civil claims in court. An aggrieved person can also make civil claims for unlawful racial discrimination directly under the Race Discrimination Ordinance.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2911
Provision of Lifeguard Services at Public Swimming Pools and Beaches
21. DR KWOK KA-KI (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that as some lifeguards of the Leisure and Cultural Services Department (LCSD) were dissatisfied with the LCSD's extended disregard for the shortage of manpower and rejection of their demand for additional manpower and pay improvement, they have recently protested by taking sick leave concurrently, resulting in temporary closure of some swimming facilities in individual public swimming pool complexes and parts of the swimming zones in public beaches. Regarding the lifeguard services provided at the public swimming pools and beaches under the LCSD, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of cases between 2009 and end of October this year in which some swimming facilities or swimming zones of public swimming pools and beaches needed to be closed temporarily because of unscheduled leave taken by lifeguards (set out in Table 1 and Table 2);
Table 1: Public swimming pools with some swimming facilities closed temporarily Year District 2013 Council Public swimming pools (as at end 2009 2010 2011 2012 Districts of October) Pao Yue Kong Swimming Southern Pool Kennedy Town Swimming Central Pool and Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park Western Swimming Pool Morrison Hill Swimming Wan Pool Chai Wan Chai Swimming Pool Chai Wan Swimming Pool Victoria Park Swimming Eastern Pool Island East Swimming Pool Siu Sai Wan Swimming Pool Lai Chi Kok Park Swimming Pool Sham Lei Cheng Uk Swimming Shui Po Pool Sham Shui Po Park Swimming Pool 2912 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Year District 2013 Council Public swimming pools (as at end 2009 2010 2011 2012 Districts of October) Kowloon Park Swimming Yau Pool Tsim Tai Kok Tsui Swimming Mong Pool Tai Wan Shan Swimming Pool Kowloon Ho Man Tin Swimming Pool City Kowloon Tsai Swimming Pool Morse Park Swimming Pool Wong Hammer Hill Road Tai Sin Swimming Pool Jordan Valley Swimming Kwun Pool Tong Kwun Tong Swimming Pool Lam Tin Swimming Pool Mui Wo Swimming Pool Islands Tung Chung Swimming Pool Tuen Mun Swimming Pool Jockey Club Yan Oi Tong Tuen Swimming Pool Mun Tuen Mun North West Swimming Pool Tin Shui Wai Swimming Pool Yuen Yuen Long Swimming Pool Long Ping Shan Tin Shui Wai Swimming Pool Shing Mun Valley Swimming Tsuen Pool Wan Tsuen King Circuit Wu Chung Swimming Pool Kwai Shing Swimming Pool Kwai North Kwai Chung Jockey Tsing Club Swimming Pool Tsing Yi Swimming Pool Fanling Swimming Pool North Sheung Shui Swimming Pool LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2913
Year District 2013 Council Public swimming pools (as at end 2009 2010 2011 2012 Districts of October) Tai Po Tai Po Swimming Pool Hin Tin Swimming Pool Ma On Shan Swimming Pool Sha Tin Sha Tin Jockey Club Swimming Pool Sai Kung Swimming Pool Sai Tseung Kwan O Swimming Kung Pool
Table 2: Public beaches with swimming zones reduced temporarily Year Date and 2013 time for Public beaches (as at end reducing 2009 2010 2011 2012 of swimming October) zones Deep Water Bay Beach Repulse Bay Beach Middle Bay Beach South Bay Beach Chung Hom Kok Beach St. Stephen's Beach Stanley Main Beach Hairpin Beach Turtle Cove Beach Shek O Beach Rocky Bay Beach Big Wave Bay Beach Hung Shing Yeh Beach Lo So Shing Beach Kwun Yam Beach Cheung Chau Tung Wan Beach Silver Mine Bay Beach Pui O Beach Lower Cheung Sha Beach 2914 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Year Date and 2013 time for Public beaches (as at end reducing 2009 2010 2011 2012 of swimming October) zones Upper Cheung Sha Beach Tong Fuk Beach Butterfly Beach Castle Peak Beach Kadoorie Beach Cafeteria Old Beach Cafeteria New Beach Golden Beach Anglers' Beach Gemini Beaches Hoi Mei Wan Beach Casam Beach Lido Beach Ting Kau Beach Approach Beach Ma Wan Tung Wan Beach Trio Beach Kiu Tsui Beach Hap Mun Bay Beach Silverstrand Beach Clear Water Bay First Beach Clear Water Bay Second Beach
(b) of a breakdown of the cases listed in Table 1 by duration of closure and number of facilities closed each time;
(c) of the respective numbers of rescue, fatal, give-a-hand and accident cases which occurred between 2009 and end of October this year at public swimming pools and beaches while lifeguards were on duty (set out in Table 3);
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2915
Table 3 Year 2013 (as at end 2009 2010 2011 2012 of October) Rescue cases Fatal cases Public Give-a-hand
swimming cases pools Accident
cases Total Rescue cases Fatal cases Give-a-hand Public cases beaches Accident
cases Total
(d) of the respective average weekly working hours of lifeguards in the civil service establishment and seasonal lifeguards between 2009 and end of October this year (set out in Table 4);
Table 4 Year 2013 (as at end 2009 2010 2011 2012 of October) Lifeguards in the civil Public service swimming establishment pools Seasonal lifeguards Lifeguards in the civil Public service beaches establishment Seasonal lifeguards
2916 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
(e) of the LCSD's recruitment targets for lifeguards and the actual number recruited between 2009 and end of October this year (set out in Table 5); and
Table 5 Lifeguards in Seasonal Year the civil service lifeguards establishment Target 2009 Actual number recruited Target 2010 Actual number recruited Target 2011 Actual number recruited Target 2012 Actual number recruited 2013 Target (as at end of Actual number recruited October)
(f) whether the LCSD will conduct a review on the grade structure of lifeguards and consider re-grading them from the Artisan grade, to which they belong at present, to the Ambulanceman grade so as to enhance the remuneration package for lifeguards, in order to attract new entrants to become lifeguards; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, the LCSD manages 43 public swimming pools, 41 gazetted public beaches and five water sports centres. The LCSD attaches great importance to the lifeguard services at its swimming pools and beaches, and conducts regular reviews of the services. The safety of swimmers has always been the LCSD's prime concern when considering the manpower requirement of lifeguards in order to ensure the availability of adequate lifeguard services at all its swimming pools and beaches. Currently, there are 958 civil service lifeguards on the LCSD's establishment. In order to enhance lifeguard services and to meet operational needs, seasonal lifeguards are also employed during the swimming season every year. For LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2917 example, in 2013, in view of the increased number of swimmers during the peak swimming season from June to August, the LCSD employed nearly 1 000 seasonal lifeguards to enhance lifeguard services at swimming pools and beaches; whilst in April, May, September and October, nearly 700 seasonal lifeguards were employed to render services supplementary to those provided by the lifeguards on the civil service establishment.
The LCSD sets the basic requirement for the provision of duty lifeguards according to actual operational needs at swimming pools and beaches and their levels of utilization. In the event of unexpected absence of lifeguards due to sickness or for other reasons, the officers in charge at venues immediately redeploy suitable manpower according to established procedures so as to maintain the service levels at swimming pools and beaches. If replacements cannot be arranged immediately to meet the basic required provision due to time constraints, the LCSD will, after considering the actual number of lifeguards on duty, temporarily close swimming facilities that have relatively smaller number of users, to ensure the safety of swimmers. Public announcements will be made as soon as possible through various channels.
The LCSD has been increasing the manpower of lifeguards during peak and non-peak seasons on an annual basis since 2006 to enhance the lifeguard services available at swimming pools and beaches. In the past two years, 125 additional seasonal lifeguard positions were added, and the number of seasonal lifeguards was further increased by 42 in 2013. To review the provision of lifeguard manpower at public swimming pools and beaches in a more comprehensive manner, the LCSD established a departmental working group in 2013 to conduct a review and invited relevant staff representatives to join the working group for extensive collection of opinions. The representatives included the management staff from the swimming pools and beaches, lifeguard representatives, representatives from relevant staff unions and lifeguard representatives of the Departmental Consultative Committee. The LCSD will continue to examine the manpower of swimming pools and beaches through the working group. The manpower requirements of the swimming pools and beaches will be considered according to the circumstances of individual swimming pools and beaches under the principles of securing the safety of swimmers and optimizing the use of public resources.
Our reply to the six parts of the question is as follows:
2918 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
(a) The numbers of cases between 2011 and end of October 2013 in which public swimming pool facilities needed to be closed or partially closed temporarily due to unscheduled leave taken by lifeguards are shown at Annex I. During the period, there was no case in which swimming zones of beaches needed to be reduced temporarily due to unscheduled leave taken by lifeguards. Regarding the numbers of cases for the years 2009 and 2010, the LCSD is unable to compile such statistics within the time available.
(b) Please refer to Annex II for the breakdown of public swimming pool facilities needed to be temporarily closed as set out at Annex I by average duration of closure and number.
(c) The numbers of rescue, fatal, give-a-hand and accident cases which occurred between 2009 and end of October 2013 at public swimming pools and beaches while lifeguards were on duty are listed below:
Year 2013 (Number of
2009 2010 2011 2012 cases as at end of October) Number of 37 37 41 43 43 swimming pools Total Attendance 8 911 232 8 554 913 9 540 432 10 471 306 10 856 691 Public Rescue cases 93 67 94 70 128 swimming Fatal cases 1 0 0 2 1 pools Give-a-hand cases 1 211 1 023 1 356 1 350 910 Accident cases 248 274 338 311 385 Total 1 553 1 364 1 788 1 733 1 424 Number of Beaches (with lifesaving 32 32 36 36 36 services) Total Attendance 10 289 060 10 431 747 11 247 877 12 355 276 10 970 735 Public Rescue cases 180 106 128 140 168 beaches Fatal cases 4 2 1 2 0 Give-a-hand-cases 734 748 682 892 534 Accident cases 126 100 141 93 103 Total 1 044 956 952 1 127 805
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2919
(d) According to the terms of appointment of lifeguards, the working hours of lifeguards on the civil service establishment and seasonal lifeguards is 45 hours net per week. Nevertheless, the LCSD may require some of the lifeguards to work overtime according to operational needs. For example, overtime work is required for extended lifesaving services at beaches on Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays during the peak swimming seasons, and for the enhanced cleaning of swimming pools after their closure on a daily basis. Overtime work will be compensated by time-off or overtime allowance as and when appropriate. The average weekly working hours of lifeguards on the civil service establishment and seasonal lifeguards after deducting time-off from 2011 to the end of October 2013 are provided in the table below:
Year 2013
2011 2012 (as at end of October) Public Lifeguards on the civil service 46.3 46.3 46.6 swimming establishment pools Seasonal lifeguards 45 45 45 Lifeguards on the civil service Public 47.6 47.5 48.6 establishment beaches Seasonal lifeguards 45 45 45
(e) Using the total number of lifeguards as at 1 August every year as the basis for comparison, the target and actual numbers of lifeguards on the civil service establishment and seasonal lifeguards recruited by the LCSD between 2009 and 2013 are listed below:
Lifeguards on Seasonal Year the civil service lifeguards establishment Target 17 865 2009 Actual number recruited 17 865 Target 74 861 2010 Actual number recruited 74 861 Target 148 950 2011 Actual number recruited 148 950 2920 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Lifeguards on Seasonal Year the civil service lifeguards establishment Target 147 932 2012 Actual number recruited 147 927 2013 Target 47 775 (October Actual number recruited 47 757 figures)
(f) Under the current policy, the Civil Service Bureau considers the need to conduct a grade structure review of an individual grade on the basis of two criteria, that is, whether there are proven and persistent recruitment and retention difficulties encountered by the grade concerned; and whether there are fundamental changes in the job nature, job complexity and level of responsibilities of the grade concerned to the extent that a root-and-branch revamping of its purpose, positioning and structure is called for in order to enable it to function properly and effectively on a sustainable basis. The LCSD has all along maintained communication with the staff side and considered the justification put forward by them in respect of their request to review the grade structure of lifeguards. Nevertheless, the situation of the grade fails to meet the two criteria for the time being. The LCSD is now considering the supplementary information provided by the staff side and evaluate if there is sufficient justification for proposal a grade structure review.
Annex I
Number of Cases of Temporary Closure of Public Swimming Pool Facilities due to Unscheduled Leave Taken by Lifeguards(1)
Year 2013 District 2011 2012 (As at end of Council Public swimming pool October) District Complete Partial Complete Partial Complete Partial Closure Closure Closure Closure Closure Closure Pao Yue Kong Swimming Southern 0 0 0 2 0 40 Pool LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2921
Year 2013 District 2011 2012 (As at end of Council Public swimming pool October) District Complete Partial Complete Partial Complete Partial Closure Closure Closure Closure Closure Closure Kennedy Town Swimming Central 0 4 0 21 0 3 Pool and Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park Western 0 0 0 0 0 4 Swimming Pool Wan Chai Swimming Pool 0 0 0 0 0 0 Wan Chai Morrison Hill Swimming 0 42 0 26 0 36 Pool Victoria Park Swimming 0 1 0 2 1 6 Pool Island East Swimming Pool 0 1 0 6 3 16 Eastern Chai Wan Swimming Pool 0 67 0 60 0 38 Siu Sai Wan Swimming 0 7 0 14 0 3 Pool Lai Chi Kok Park 0 49 0 46 0 16 Swimming Pool Sham Shui Lei Cheng Uk Swimming 0 34 0 6 0 2 Po Pool Sham Shui Po Park 0 18 0 9 0 9 Swimming Pool Kowloon Park Swimming 0 12 0 28 0 95 Yau Tsim Pool Mong Tai Kok Tsui Swimming 0 0 0 5 0 0 Pool Tai Wan Shan Swimming 0 43 0 28 0 9 Pool Kowloon Ho Man Tin Swimming 0 5 1 3 0 9 City Pool Kowloon Tsai Swimming 0 13 0 47 0 13 Pool Morse Park Swimming Pool 0 0 0 1 0 0 Wong Tai Hammer Hill Road Sin 0 18 0 23 0 15 Swimming Pool Jordan Valley Swimming 0 11 0 2 0 0 Kwun Pool Tong Kwun Tong Swimming Pool 0 2 0 0 0 1 Lam Tin Swimming Pool (Note 2) 0 0 0 2 Mui Wo Swimming Pool 0 0 0 0 0 0 Islands Tung Chung Swimming 0 7 0 2 1 3 Pool 2922 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Year 2013 District 2011 2012 (As at end of Council Public swimming pool October) District Complete Partial Complete Partial Complete Partial Closure Closure Closure Closure Closure Closure Tuen Mun Swimming Pool 0 76 0 108 0 36 Jockey Club Yan Oi Tong 0 0 0 18 0 20 Tuen Mun Swimming Pool Tuen Mun North West (Note 2) 0 0 0 2 Swimming Pool Yuen Long Swimming Pool 0 18 0 27 0 19 Tin Shui Wai Swimming Yuen 0 26 0 6 0 13 Pool Long Ping Shan Tin Shui Wai 0 0 0 0 0 0 Swimming Pool Tsuen King Circuit Wu 0 3 0 30 0 26 Tsuen Chung Swimming Pool Wan Shing Mun Valley 0 16 0 49 0 35 Swimming Pool Kwai Shing Swimming Pool 0 5 0 3 0 3 Kwai North Kwai Chung Jockey 0 34 0 16 0 17 Tsing Club Swimming Pool Tsing Yi Swimming Pool 0 31 0 37 0 12 Fanling Swimming Pool 0 0 0 5 0 0 North Sheung Shui Swimming 0 0 0 0 0 0 Pool Tai Po Tai Po Swimming Pool 0 156 0 36 0 12 Sha Tin Jockey Club 0 19 0 27 0 22 Swimming Pool Sha Tin Hin Tin Swimming Pool 0 23 0 36 0 65 Ma On Shan Swimming 0 0 0 0 0 0 Pool Tseung Kwan O Swimming 0 55 0 113 0 38 Sai Kung Pool Sai Kung Swimming Pool 0 49 0 70 0 51 Subtotal 0 845 1 912 5 691 Total 845 913 696
Notes:
(1) An individual case refers to the temporary closure of some of the swimming facilities on a particular day arising from the unscheduled leave taken by lifeguards.
(2) The swimming pool was yet to be opened in the respective year.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2923
Annex II
Number of Cases of Temporary Closure of Public Swimming Pool Facilities due to Unscheduled Leave Taken by Lifeguards and the Average Number of Hours and Average Number of Facilities involved in 2011
Average Average District Number of Number of Number of Council Public swimming pool (1) Cases Hours of Facilities District Each Closure Closed Pao Yue Kong Swimming Southern Pool 0 0 0 Kennedy Town Swimming Central Pool 4 5.9 1 and Western Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Wan Chai Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Wan Chai Morrison Hill Swimming 42 9.2 1 Pool Victoria Park Swimming 1 3.5 1 Pool Island East Swimming Pool 1 7.2 1 Eastern Chai Wan Swimming Pool 67 5.6 1 Siu Sai Wan Swimming Pool 7 6 1 Lai Chi Kok Park Swimming Pool 49 5.2 1 Sham Lei Cheng Uk Swimming Shui Po Pool 34 4.3 1 Sham Shui Po Park Swimming Pool 18 2.4 1 Kowloon Park Swimming 12 4.6 1 Yau Tsim Pool Mong Tai Kok Tsui Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Tai Wan Shan Swimming Pool 43 5.8 1 Kowloon Ho Man Tin Swimming City Pool 5 4.3 1 Kowloon Tsai Swimming Pool 13 2 1 Morse Park Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Wong Tai Sin Hammer Hill Road 18 5.1 2 Swimming Pool Jordan Valley Swimming 11 5.2 1 Kwun Pool Tong Kwun Tong Swimming Pool 2 5.8 2 Lam Tin Swimming Pool (Note 2) 2924 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Average Average District Number of Number of Number of Council Public swimming pool (1) Cases Hours of Facilities District Each Closure Closed Mui Wo Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Islands Tung Chung Swimming 7 5.4 1 Pool Tuen Mun Swimming Pool 76 5.6 1 Jockey Club Yan Oi Tong Tuen 0 0 0 Swimming Pool Mun Tuen Mun North West (Note 2) Swimming Pool Yuen Long Swimming Pool 18 5.3 1 Tin Shui Wai Swimming Yuen 26 4.7 1 Pool Long Ping Shan Tin Shui Wai 0 0 0 Swimming Pool Tsuen King Circuit Wu 3 5.6 1 Tsuen Chung Swimming Pool Wan Shing Mun Valley 16 4 1 Swimming Pool Kwai Shing Swimming Pool 5 4.2 1 Kwai North Kwai Chung Jockey 34 3 1 Tsing Club Swimming Pool Tsing Yi Swimming Pool 31 7 1 Fanling Swimming Pool 0 0 0 North Sheung Shui Swimming 0 0 0 Pool Tai Po Tai Po Swimming Pool 156 7.4 1 Sha Tin Jockey Club 19 3.5 1 Swimming Pool Sha Tin Hin Tin Swimming Pool 23 8 1 Ma On Shan Swimming 0 0 0 Pool Sai Kung Swimming Pool 55 6.2 1 Sai Kung Tseung Kwan O Swimming 49 5.1 1 Pool Total 845
Notes:
(1) An individual case refers to the temporary closure of some of the swimming facilities on a particular day arising from the unscheduled leave taken by lifeguards.
(2) The swimming pool was yet to be opened in the respective year.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2925
Number of Cases of Temporary Closure of Public Swimming Pool Facilities due to Unscheduled Leave Taken by Lifeguards and the Average Number of Hours and Average Number of Facilities involved in 2012
Average Average District Number of Number of Number of Council Public swimming pool (1) Cases Hours of Facilities District Each Closure Closed Pao Yue Kong Swimming Southern 2 0.5 1 Pool Kennedy Town Swimming Central 21 5.8 1 Pool and Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park Western 0 0 0 Swimming Pool Wan Chai Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Wan Morrison Hill Swimming Chai 26 7.9 1 Pool Victoria Park Swimming 2 5.5 1 Pool Eastern Island East Swimming Pool 6 2.5 1 Chai Wan Swimming Pool 60 5.8 1 Siu Sai Wan Swimming Pool 14 6.1 1 Lai Chi Kok Park Swimming 46 5.5 1 Pool Sham Lei Cheng Uk Swimming 6 3.4 1 Shui Po Pool Sham Shui Po Park 9 2.3 1 Swimming Pool Kowloon Park Swimming Yau 28 4.1 1 Pool Tsim Tai Kok Tsui Swimming Mong 5 2.8 1 Pool Tai Wan Shan Swimming 28 6.1 1 Pool Kowloon Ho Man Tin Swimming Pool 4 8 1 City Kowloon Tsai Swimming 47 5.3 1 Pool Morse Park Swimming Pool 1 5.8 3 Wong Hammer Hill Road Tai Sin 23 6.3 2 Swimming Pool Jordan Valley Swimming 2 3.5 1 Kwun Pool Tong Kwun Tong Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Lam Tin Swimming Pool 0 0 0 2926 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Average Average District Number of Number of Number of Council Public swimming pool (1) Cases Hours of Facilities District Each Closure Closed Mui Wo Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Islands Tung Chung Swimming Pool 2 2.5 1 Tuen Mun Swimming Pool 108 6.5 1 Jockey Club Yan Oi Tong Tuen 18 4.7 1 Swimming Pool Mun Tuen Mun North West 0 0 0 Swimming Pool Yuen Long Swimming Pool 27 5.1 1 Tin Shui Wai Swimming Yuen 6 3 1 Pool Long Ping Shan Tin Shui Wai 0 0 0 Swimming Pool Tsuen King Circuit Wu 30 6.5 1 Tsuen Chung Swimming Pool Wan Shing Mun Valley 49 6 1 Swimming Pool Kwai Shing Swimming Pool 3 2.6 1 Kwai North Kwai Chung Jockey 16 3.6 1 Tsing Club Swimming Pool Tsing Yi Swimming Pool 37 6.7 2 Fanling Swimming Pool 5 8.1 1 North Sheung Shui Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Tai Po Tai Po Swimming Pool 36 4.2 1 Sha Tin Jockey Club 27 5.5 1 Swimming Pool Sha Tin Hin Tin Swimming Pool 36 5.1 1 Ma On Shan Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Sai Kung Swimming Pool 113 7.3 1 Sai Tseung Kwan O Swimming Kung 70 5.3 1 Pool Total 913
Note:
(1) An individual case refers to the temporary closure of some of the swimming facilities on a particular day arising from the unscheduled leave taken by lifeguards.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2927
Number of Cases of Temporary Closure of Public Swimming Pool Facilities due to Unscheduled Leave Taken by Lifeguards and the Average Number of Hours and Average Number of Facilities involved in 2013 (up to the end of October)
Average Average District Number of Number of Number of Council Public swimming pool Cases(1) Hours of Facilities District Each Closure Closed Pao Yue Kong Swimming Southern 40 4.4 1 Pool Kennedy Town Swimming Central 3 3.1 1 Pool and Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park Western 4 7.4 1 Swimming Pool Wan Chai Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Wan Morrison Hill Swimming Chai 36 9.5 1 Pool Victoria Park Swimming Pool 7 3.8 1 Island East Swimming Pool 19 5 1 Eastern Chai Wan Swimming Pool 38 6.1 1 Siu Sai Wan Swimming Pool 3 5.3 1 Lai Chi Kok Park Swimming 16 4.7 1 Pool Sham Lei Cheng Uk Swimming 2 1 1 Shui Po Pool Sham Shui Po Park 9 0.7 1 Swimming Pool Yau Kowloon Park Swimming 95 6.5 1 Tsim Pool Mong Tai Kok Tsui Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Tai Wan Shan Swimming 9 6.1 1 Pool Kowloon Ho Man Tin Swimming Pool 9 4.8 1 City Kowloon Tsai Swimming 13 4.2 1 Pool Morse Park Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Wong Hammer Hill Road Tai Sin 15 4.7 2 Swimming Pool Jordan Valley Swimming 0 0 0 Kwun Pool Tong Kwun Tong Swimming Pool 1 4.5 1 Lam Tin Swimming Pool 2 4.3 1 2928 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Average Average District Number of Number of Number of Council Public swimming pool Cases(1) Hours of Facilities District Each Closure Closed Mui Wo Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Islands Tung Chung Swimming Pool 4 6.7 1 Tuen Mun Swimming Pool 36 5.3 1 Jockey Club Yan Oi Tong Tuen 20 3.9 1 Swimming Pool Mun Tuen Mun North West 2 4.6 1 Swimming Pool Yuen Long Swimming Pool 19 4.6 1 Yuen Tin Shui Wai Swimming Pool 13 5.1 2 Long Ping Shan Tin Shui Wai 0 0 0 Swimming Pool Tsuen King Circuit Wu 26 6.8 1 Tsuen Chung Swimming Pool Wan Shing Mun Valley Swimming 35 6 1 Pool Kwai Shing Swimming Pool 3 3.8 1 Kwai North Kwai Chung Jockey 17 3.2 1 Tsing Club Swimming Pool Tsing Yi Swimming Pool 12 5.8 1 Fanling Swimming Pool 0 0 0 North Sheung Shui Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Tai Po Tai Po Swimming Pool 12 8.6 2 Sha Tin Jockey Club 22 4.7 2 Swimming Pool Sha Tin Hin Tin Swimming Pool 65 5.3 1 Ma On Shan Swimming Pool 0 0 0 Sai Kung Swimming Pool 38 5.5 1 Sai Tseung Kwan O Swimming Kung 51 4.6 1 Pool Total 696
Note:
(1) An individual case refers to the temporary closure of some of the swimming facilities on a particular day arising from the unscheduled leave taken by lifeguards.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2929
Monitoring of Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme
22. MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Chinese): President, in reply to my question on 5 June this year, the Government indicated that in 2011, the Hong Kong Federation of Youth Groups (HKFYG) had irregularities in having wrongly reported the training hours of a Professional Bridal Make-up and Hair Styling Training Course it organized under the "Targeted Career Training Mission" of the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme (the Scheme) of the Labour Department (LD), and because of that, the HKFYG had taken the initiative to refund the LD all monies related to the course. The LD subsequently issued a serious warning to the HKFYG. Moreover, although the Government had also separately replied to my questions regarding the Scheme on 24 April, 8 May and 15 May this year, quite a number of members of the public and social workers still continued to relay to me the problems of the Scheme. They pointed out that when problems of the training courses arose, some "authorized persons" of the training bodies appointed under the Scheme (that is, the persons authorized by a training body to sign all application forms for reimbursement of course fees (the forms) under the Scheme) often covered up their own fault of improper supervision and shifted the blame to those social workers who had already left the positions. They also pointed out that some training bodies had, through administrative means, required their staff to make advance payments for purchasing materials needed for the courses held under the Scheme, but refused to reimburse the staff concerned afterwards. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of courses organized by the HKFYG under the Scheme and the amount of public money involved in each of the past five Programme Years;
(b) other than the aforesaid incident, whether the LD had uncovered in the past five Programme Years other incidents of irregularities or submission of false financial records by the HKFYG when it organized other courses under the Scheme; if so, of the details of such incidents as well as the sanctions imposed by the LD on the HKFYG;
(c) whether it knows if the two authorized persons appointed by the HKFYG are of the rank of deputy executive director; if so, which one 2930 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
of them was involved in the aforesaid incident of providing incorrect information; if not, of the rank of the authorized persons;
(d) whether the Scheme has any requirement on the lowest rank of staff members who may be appointed as an authorized person; if so, of that rank and the justifications for that; if not, whether a training body may decide to appoint its staff of any rank as an authorized person;
(e) whether it is provided under the Scheme that an authorized person is responsible for ascertaining the accuracy of the information provided on the forms submitted to the LD; if so, whether the LD has asked the training bodies to clearly inform their authorized persons of such responsibility they have to bear; if there is no such provision, whether an authorized person will not be held responsible for submitting incorrect information;
(f) whether the LD has encouraged the training bodies to require their staff to make advance payments for purchasing materials needed under the Scheme and refuse to reimburse the staff concerned afterwards; if so, of the reasons for that; whether the training bodies will breach any requirement under the Scheme if they adopt such a practice; if they will breach any requirement, of the requirement concerned; if not, whether it has assessed if the LD has given tacit consent to the training bodies for exploiting their staff;
(g) whether the LD has conducted serious investigation to see if the training bodies under the Scheme have adopted the practice mentioned in part (f); if it has uncovered such a practice, whether the LD will impose severe punishment on the training bodies concerned; whether the Government will reimburse the social workers concerned for the payments they made and request the relevant LD staff to take the blame and resign from their posts only after such social workers have instituted legal proceedings and won their cases; if the social workers concerned do not need to recover their money through legal means, of the mechanism through which they can recover their money; and
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2931
(h) given that, in its reply to my question on 5 June, the Government indicated that the LD had not initiated any prosecution against the HKFYG for the aforesaid incident of irregularities, whether it has assessed if the government officials responsible have wilfully harboured the staff of the training body and those public officers who blundered?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Chinese): President, my reply to the question raised by Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung is as follows:
(a) As at the end of October 2013, the amounts of payment for training courses organized by the HKFYG under the Youth Employment and Training Programme (YETP)(formerly known as the Scheme) are listed as follows:
Programme Course Title Year Amount of (September Course Fee Job-specific to August Job-search Discipline Computer Others Approved Skills the next ($) year) 2008-2009 1,335,545 2009-2010 1,957,570 2010-2011 1,588,784 2011-2012 1,194,716 2012-2013 689,200
(b) Other than the non-compliance case reported by the HKFYG of its own accord in May 2012, the LD found that the HKFYG had not strictly adhered to the administrative procedures in cancelling an elective training course of "Library Assistant Training" in August 2010. The LD subsequently issued a warning letter to the organization in the following month.
(c) The two authorized persons appointed by the HKFYG to sign the "Application form for reimbursement of course fees" in the 2010-2011 Programme Year are both Deputy Executive Directors of 2932 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
the HKFYG. The "Application form for reimbursement of course fees" for the Professional Bridal Make-up and Hair Styling Training Course organized under the Targeted Career Training Mission by the HKFYG during March to May 2011 was signed by one of these authorized persons.
(d) and (e)
As the duties of the authorized persons are administrative in nature, the training bodies would select suitable persons to hold the post based on their scale of operation and management structure. Before submitting the payment claim form, the training bodies have the responsibility to verify the accuracy of the information and truly report.
(f) and (g)
The LD pays the training bodies training fees by unit cost instead of the expenses incurred by the training bodies. If the social worker of the case concerned has problems with his/her employing organization over the reimbursement of expenses, he/she should discuss with the organization direct in order to resolve the matter. Where necessary, he/she may consider taking appropriate legal action.
(h) As investigation of the case by LD had not revealed any suspected offence, the case had not been referred to law-enforcement departments or other organizations for follow-up.
BILLS
Second Reading of Bills
Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bills
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We now resume the Second Reading debate on the Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2933
PEAK TRAMWAY (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 9 October 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Jeffrey LAM, Chairman of the Bills Committee on the above Bill, will address the Council on the Committee's Report.
MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): In my capacity as Chairman of the Bills Committee on Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bills Committee), I report on the deliberations of the Bills Committee.
The Bills Committee has noted that the Administration granted in late 2003 an extension of the right of the Peak Tramways Company Limited (the PTC) to run and operate the peak tramway for a period of 10 years from 1 January 2004 to 31 December 2013. In late 2012, the PTC made a request to the Government for an extension of its operating right. During the discussion between the Government and the PTC on this request, it had come to the Government's attention that the relevant provisions in the Peak Tramway Ordinance (the PTO) for the further extension of the PTC's operating right were one-off provisions applicable only to the last extension granted in 2003. For this reason, the PTO has to be amended in order that a new operating right can be granted.
(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, Mr Andrew LEUNG, took the Chair)
The Bills Committee has noted that the introduction of the Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bill) is the first stage of a two-stage legislative amendment exercise. The Bill seeks to empower the Chief Executive in Council to grant the operating right of the peak tramway for a period of two years, commencing on 1 January 2014. This is an interim measure to ensure that there should be no disruption to the peak tramway service because of the legal problem, and to allow time for the Government to give detailed consideration to the long-term arrangements for the peak tramway operation.
2934 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
The Bills Committee has also noticed that at the second stage of the legislative amendment exercise, the Administration will study and decide the long-term arrangements for the peak tramway operation. The Administration will then prepare another Bill for timely introduction into the Legislative Council, so that the Bill can be passed and the new arrangements ready for implementation before the end of the interim period on 31 December 2015.
Deputy President, the Bills Committee generally supports the Bill, and in the course of deliberation, the Bills Committee has expressed the following concerns.
The Bills Committee has noticed the significant increase in tourists visiting Hong Kong and the demand for the peak tramway service. It urged the PTC to actively explore measures to improve the queuing environment for passengers and reduce the waiting time by all means.
The Bills Committee is concerned that in view of the uncertainties over the next two years, the PTC may take a passive approach in the provision of service. In response to this concern, the Administration provided information on the maintenance and improvement plans for the next two years submitted by the PTC. In gist, the maintenance plan includes the replacement of direct current motors and haulage ropes, upgrade of the haulage drum, repair of the tramcar body and roof, strengthening of the track and foundation, and so on, with a view to maintaining the safe operation of the peak tramway. Furthermore, the PTC plans to enhance its services by implementing various measures which include upgrading the ticketing system and installation of display boards for hearing impaired passengers. It is estimated by the PTC that these measures will require an investment of over $75 million in 2014 and 2015.
The Bills Committee supports the resumption of the Second Reading debate on the Bill and will not propose any amendment to the Bill.
Deputy President, to Hong Kong people, the peak tram is a means of public transport, whereas to tourists, the peak is a "must-go" destination and therefore, it is necessary for the Bill to be enacted expeditiously. We hope that the PTC will, in the coming days, improve its services, including the waiting time of passengers.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2935
Moreover, given the limited queuing area at the Peak Tram Station, passengers often have to queue up on the streets, thus giving cause for safety concerns. I hope that the PTC will make improvements by all means in this respect, and it may be necessary for the Government to provide support because when there may be a large number of tourists queuing up for the peak tram on holidays, the queuing area at the Peak Tram Station actually does not have sufficient space to hold the tourists.
The Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong supports the proposals and hopes that the Bill can be passed today.
Thank you, Deputy President.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, as an elected Member of the Legislative Council in the Hong Kong Island geographical constituency and a member of the Bills Committee on Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bills Committee), I am disappointed by the response given by the Peak Tramways Company Limited (the PTC) to the request we made at meetings of the Bills Committee for improving the safety of queuing passengers. Deputy President, I have with me a page of response provided by the PTC. Mr Jeffrey LAM, Chairman of the Bills Committee, has just cited this response and so, I am not going to repeat it. The PTC has only put forward a total of 14 points in two areas, namely, tramway safety and reliability as well as efficiency and productivity, pointing out that they will carry out improvement works in the areas just mentioned by me at a cost of $75 million in the next two years subject to the passage of the Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bill). But with regard to the concern over the safety of queuing passengers as raised by us at meetings of the Bills Committee, the PTC has only briefly touched on it, and we find this a bit regrettable and disappointing.
Deputy President, every time when I pass by the Peak Tram Station on Garden Road, I always see the scene in this picture that I am showing now. There is always a long queue of passengers who are exposed to the elements. They are even more pitiable especially when the weather brings chill and rain. While we can say that they may as well enjoy a bit of sunshine on sunny days, they can find no shelter when it rains all of a sudden. I have seen queuing passengers almost slipping on the slippery ground or falling over as they try to find a shelter from the rain, not knowing whether they should leave or stay. 2936 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
This makes people question why the PTC does not look into ways to make improvement. I wonder if the PTC simply could not care less on account of its dominance in the market and therefore turns a blind eye to the passengers' complaints and our requests. I think as the peak tram is an iconic tourist attraction in Hong Kong, the PTC is duty-bound to improve the situation. If they fail to make improvement and do nothing while its passengers are exposed to the elements, I think this will be a disgrace to Hong Kong.
Deputy President, how did the PTC respond to the requests we made at the meetings? After making a total of 14 points in two areas, the PTC said that "the Company is exploring measures to improve queue management for passengers." Does it mean that the passengers do not know how to queue or they do not queue up properly, thus resulting in these problems? In looking at the problems, the PTC seems to have missed the point stressed by us and evaded the crux of the problem, saying that it is necessary to improve queue management. Does it mean that the passengers have not queued up properly? Furthermore, they went on to say that "the Company also plans to undertake further consultancy study in architectural, structural, geotechnical and civil engineering for the long-term passenger service improvement planning." It did not say what the study is all about, and all it said was that it plans to conduct a study. In other words, there are a lot of obscurities in respect of what improvement will be made in the next two years, without giving any account of the same.
If such being the case, I would like to ask: Could this be acceptable to the Secretary? Fortunately, the Secretary for Justice pointed out that there were actually mistakes made in the original renewal arrangement, which is why the matter was thought to be settled back then. It is fortunate that this interim legislation is under study now, and I think this explains why the PTC is willing to briefly look at this problem but in spite of this, they have still refused to address the problem squarely. Therefore, on this occasion, I call on the Government to also address the problem squarely and urge the PTC to propose, after the passage of this Bill today, practical measures and specific ways to resolve the problem of passengers being exposed to the elements while queuing for the peak tram in the next two years.
Deputy President, this is a picture for illustration purpose. I was unable to have it prepared in time for the meeting the other day. In fact, there is absolutely sufficient space to provide a shelter on the pavement just opposite the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2937
PTC, which is marked in red here in the picture. There is entirely sufficient space for the purpose. This involves only simple works, just as the kind which is provided at many bus stops and tram stops. Why do they not consider providing a rain shelter for the queuing passengers there, so that the passengers can queue up in order and safely without having to be exposed to the elements? In fact, this does not involve works of a massive scale; nor does it require any consultancy study. For something as simple as such, why does the PTC not do it? If the PTC does not do it, why does the Transport and Housing Bureau not urge them to do it? Why has the Transport and Housing Bureau, which acts on behalf of the Government, taken the complaints of passengers or tourists lightly and turned a deaf ear to them? I will make another proposal later, and the proposal that I have just made is actually very common. I hope that the Secretary will give a response later. For something as simple as such, why does it have to take two years to make preparations? Is this the best Hong Kong can do efficiency-wise? If such being the case, how can we explain it to the tourists or passengers responsibly?
Next, Deputy President, I wish to explain the second proposal. From this picture with me now, we can see crowds of people on the pavement. To the right of the PTC (that is, on the left-hand side to any viewer of the photograph) there is a flyover and underneath it (which is shown by an arrow) there is a lot of space currently used for private car parking. This very spacious area can entirely be used by the PTC as the queuing area for peak tram passengers. Passengers will not have to stand under the sun on sunny days or get soaked on rainy days there, and this area can hold at least two or three hundred people. Of course, passengers will have to cross a road, which is not too wide, under the flyover in order to get on the peak tram, but this can entirely be resolved through traffic control. The PTC can deploy its management staff to help passengers crossing the road in batches in order to get on the peak tram. This will obviate the need of carrying out structural works or providing shelters for the queuing passengers as I suggested just now. This is expedient and convenient, and can be done right away. I would like to ask if the PTC has conducted studies in this regard.
I actually put forward this proposal specifically at the meeting of the Bills Committee the other day but regrettably, the written response that I have received is silent on this proposal. I also asked the Transport and Housing Bureau on that day whether it could help the PTC conduct the relevant studies, but I have not 2938 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 received any response so far. I think it is not a serious and responsible attitude to turn a deaf ear to the complaints from the public, passengers or tourists as reflected by us.
In this connection, I wish to take this opportunity to call on the Secretary for Transport and Housing to respond in his reply later to the second proposal that I have put forward and tell us whether they have specifically studied and considered it. If he is of the view that the Transport Department may have to make some arrangements with regard to the area under the flyover which is currently used for private car parking, can he tell us whether they have conducted any studies and carried out any work? Has it worked together with the PTC in this respect? With regard to these problems, I think it is not the case that there are no solutions to them, but the point is whether they are willing to deal with the problems. If they intend to resolve the problems, there must be a way to do it.
Deputy President, I have put forward two concrete proposals on this occasion today. I really hope that the Administration can introduce practicable measures for regulation of the PTC because from one single example we can see the full picture. The problem of queuing passengers being exposed to the elements has long been raised and yet, the PTC has failed to address it squarely and the Government, being the regulator, has attached little importance to it.
Therefore, with regard to the Government's handling of the extension of the operating right of the PTC, I think it is indeed as complicated as what is said in the paper, for the Government has to look into how the PTC can be monitored effectively. The Government must not give the company a free hand after granting the operating right to it, allowing it to neglect the need to improve its service standard and ignore public criticisms or opinions. Deputy President, I hope that the Secretary can give a response in a responsible manner later on.
Thank you, Deputy President.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the provisions of the Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 are relatively simple and I believe there should not be any particular controversy over the Bill. The amendment mainly serves to provide a temporary remedy for a defect relating to the extension of the operating right in the enactment of the Peak Tramway Ordinance back then. Unless there is an extension of the operating right by way of a legislative LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2939 amendment, the operating right of the Peak Tramways Company Limited (the PTC) will end after 31 December this year and the continued operation of the PTC will lack a legal basis. In view of the time-consuming deliberations to be entailed in amending the principal legislation, the Government has proposed an amendment to extend the operating right of the PTC for two years as an expedient measure, which the Liberal Party supports.
In Hong Kong, there are three modes of public transport with a century-long history. The first is, of course, the peak tramway established in 1888; the second is the Star Ferry established in 1898; and the third is the tram service established in 1904.
The Peak is a major tourist attraction in Hong Kong. There used to be the "Fool's Pavilion" and now, there is the Peak Tower, and together with the peak tram that plies to and from the Peak, the Peak has become an icon of Hong Kong. As I have just said, the peak tramway was commissioned in 1888 and has a history of over a century. Back then, it was mainly used as a means of public transport running to and from the Peak but now, it has become a means of transport for sightseeing most welcomed by tourists who constitute 90% of the daily patronage of the peak tram nowadays. For this reason, if the operation of the peak tram service cannot be maintained, it would have a certain impact on tourism in Hong Kong.
The peak tramway has been in operation for over a century, and the peak tram service has been growing and changing in tandem with the development and demand of the time. After five generations of changes, the tramcar, which used to have a seating capacity of 30 passengers in the early days, can now carry 120 passengers. That said, the peak tramway has been in service for over 20 years. With regard to the service performance of the peak tramway, I think it is the general view that there is room for improvement, especially as the number of tourists visiting Hong Kong is ever increasing and the demand for the peak tram service has hence risen considerably, we can always see long queues at the peak tram termini, especially on Sundays and public holidays and even at night on all days. It is just common to see peak tram passengers waiting in long a queue. This shows that the peak tram service cannot cope with the growth in patronage. Mr WONG Kwok-hing has put forward a lot of views and made a lot of efforts earlier on to suggest to the Government ways to help the PTC improve its facilities. But as far as I understand it, the site outside the PTC is not owned by the PTC and in this respect, the Government may have to take actions to see how it can help improve the situation. According to the information of the 2940 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Government, the carrying capacity of the tramcar has substantially increased by 45% from 11 000 in 2004 to 16 000 in 2012. In this connection, I hope that the PTC can make improvements to its service by increasing the frequency of tram service or providing more tramcars, in order to increase the carrying capacity and reduce the waiting time, thereby dispersing the passengers more speedily.
We are aware that the PTC has commissioned a consultancy study on upgrading the service quality and reducing the waiting time of passengers. It is mentioned inter alia that while it can help reduce the waiting time if the holding capacity of the tramcar can be enhanced to increase the carrying capacity, this would nevertheless put certain pressure on the track rails, track foundation and tramway bridges and hence require major construction works to reprovide the necessary infrastructure. As large-scale construction works and massive investment will be involved, and in order to maintain the competitiveness of the fares, I think it is necessary for the Government to draw up an attractive term of the operating right to ensure the company's financial viability.
In this two-year interim, the Government will study the future arrangements for the peak tramway operation, including the improvement of services, as well as how the operating right should be extended or granted afresh. But as it will involve consultation and legislative exercises, I am concerned about whether a decision can be reached on issues relating to the future operation of the peak tramway within the next two years. Here, I urge the Government to grasp the time and kick-start the study on the detailed arrangements for the operating right of the peak tramway as early as possible.
I hope that apart from the operation of the 1.4 km-long tram track and the two termini of the peak tramway, the authorities will also take into consideration the overall development of the scenic spots around the tram terminus at the Peak in making a decision on the operating right of the peak tramway, with a view to enhancing the economic benefits of the peak tramway.
Deputy President, although this is all due to an inadvertent mistake made in the past, which is rare indeed, it is fortunate that the authorities can detect it before it is too late and that there is still time to make remedies. However, the Government should learn a lesson from this blunder and examine other similar ordinances as early as possible in order not to repeat the same mistake.
Deputy President, I so submit.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2941
MR WONG YUK-MAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I did not take part in the Bills Committee on Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013, and as this Bills Committee has held only one meeting, and neither the Government nor Members have proposed any amendment, the resumption of the Second Reading debate on the Bill and its Third Reading are no more than routines. I think nobody will raise objection to it.
Of course, Mr Frankie YICK was very polite in his speech just now. What this Government has done can be described as ridiculous. Buddy, the operating right will expire at the end of December and if I joined the Bills Committee and filibustered, would the outcome not be disastrous? The operating right of the peak tramway would have been scrapped then. The Secretary is sitting in his seat now, and I do not know what is on his mind. He seems to be dreaming, does he not? He is actually dreaming. The "689" regime is falling apart. A minor issue can already plunge it into such a sorry state. It is fortunate that the Bills Committee was comprised of only a few members, and Mr Jeffrey LAM and the others were so co-operative that they concluded the deliberations after holding just one meeting. The Bill is then expeditiously tabled before the Legislative Council today for the Second Reading debate to resume and subsequently for Third Reading, right? What day is it today? How many more days are left? So, this is indeed laughable. This Government is not just falling apart. It is indeed awesome as it can outrageously do such a silly thing. It is indeed treating the Legislative Council as a rubber stamp and taking it for granted that we will certainly put a stamp on this Bill, is it not?
I have read the report of the Bills Committee and learnt that the operating right of the Peak Tramways Company Limited (the PTC) will end on 31 December 2013, which is just 27 working days away from now. If the Bills Committee held one more meeting to scrutinize the provisions, the Bill would not be passed at the end of the year and what would happen then? Mr Frankie YICK said just now that the Government should strive to correct mistakes identified while trying to do better when there are none, suggesting the Government to do so and so in the future. Buddy, this is the Government, and it has public powers. Many people would not have expected me to speak in this resumed Second Reading debate on the Bill and also on its Third Reading. Mr WONG Kwok-hing said that he is an elected Member representing the Hong Kong Island Geographical Constituency and he has collected a lot of information on the peak tramway. But not even once do I ride on the peak tramway in a 2942 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 year, so I really have nothing much to say about this Bill. But seeing what the Government has done, I cannot but rise to speak, and I will use all the 15 minutes. I am not kidding. Deputy President, our duty is to speak in this Council, is it not? Let us look around and see how many Members are in this Chamber. One, two, three, four, five, and me, making a total of six altogether. Others are having their meals ― You do not have to stare at me like that. I am not going to request a headcount. It does not really matter to me and after all, I still wish to make a speech here. It would be rather serious if the summoning bell is now rung to summon Members back to the Chamber, right? Members please look at this side. Not even one Member from the pan-democratic camp is here. This is awesome indeed.
May I ask the Government why it has delayed the handling of the operating right of the PTC until now? There is no question of "choosing two out of three applicants" in the case of the operating right of the peak tramway. It is just very simple, so what reason is there for such a delay? It really beats me, and perhaps the Secretary can give me an answer later on. No consultancy report is required; nor is there a need to choose two out of three applicants and what is more, the so-called competitors of the PTC, such as buses, maxicabs and taxis, are no match for the PTC in the competition. We all know that the peak tram is of a different nature from buses and maxicabs, for it is a means of transport or carrier for tourism or sightseeing purposes. Certainly, some residents of the Peak who live in the vicinity of the peak tram station may take the peak tram, but it is not a major means of public transport, and there are also public light buses ― maxicabs, and buses, right? Therefore, the operating right basically will not be affected by challenges from competitors or other more complicated factors. Such being the case, why was there such haste in the time frame for discussion with the PTC on the operating right? Why is it so strange? It does beat me.
I think this is also a question that will be raised by many people, and the Secretary is duty-bound to give us a response later. Of course, he has his reason. Then what is the reason? Let me tell Members his reason. He used the pretext that it is necessary to discuss with the PTC ― I only cited from the relevant paper ― "the long-term arrangements for the peak tramway operation, including assessing the merits and feasibility of the PTC's proposed upgrading plan for peak tramway system and services, and how the operating right should be granted, extended and, where necessary, ended for the long term having regard to the upgrading plan (if it is considered meritorious and feasible in the end)". Secretary, is this not the kind of work expected to be undertaken? The LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2943
Government granted the right to the PTC to operate the peak tramway for 10 years on 1 January 2004 and if it intended to review the operating right and the policy, why could this not be done earlier? Besides, may I ask the Secretary this: For the work that I mentioned just now, can it not be undertaken earlier? Is it that the merits or feasibility or whatsoever cannot be reviewed earlier?
It is more ridiculous that the Bill only empowers the Chief Executive in Council to grant the right to the PTC to operate the peak tramway for two years further, so as to give the Government time to work with the PTC to resolve all the issues related to the long-term arrangements for the peak tramway operation and to ensure that there should be no disruption to the peak tramway service because of the legal problem. As the provision on the further extension of the operating right in the Peak Tramway Ordinance is a one-off provision applicable only to the last extension granted in 2003, the Government, therefore, introduced this Bill hastily, which is really a silly mistake. The Secretary may not know exactly what happened because as a Secretary, he has numerous affairs to attend to every day, and the speech that he is going to make in a while is also written by his aides for him to read out here, unlike me as I would read all the papers before giving a speech.
When the authorities complete the discussion in the future, it will be necessary to pass another Bill to empower the Chief Executive in Council to grant the operating right. Am I right? It is only a two-year extension which is proposed now. Had the authorities made plans and policies on the PTC early, it would not have to handle the matter this way. Now that the matter has to be handled with a piecemeal approach as discussion has to be held first in this two-year period before studies will be conducted on whether to grant the operating right for another 10 years, which remains unknown. Why should we waste time and public coffers? The biggest problem is that the tabling of this Bill to the Legislative Council is a waste of our time. Mr WONG Kwok-hing will be writing Chinese calligraphy then, right? How much public money has been squandered? We have to work it out with the Government. Next time when another Bill is tabled to the Legislative Council, does it mean a waste of public coffers? By Mr WONG Kwok-hing's standard, this is a waste of our time as a Bill has to be tabled to the Legislative Council again and it has to be arranged for discussion ahead of other items. There are two other motions which we have yet discussed, right? I wonder if any other Member will speak after I have spoken, but this discussion should nearly come to a close and then a vote can be taken and the matter will be settled soon. This is all planned by the authorities. 2944 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
They know that the Bill can certainly be passed in time when it is tabled at the Legislative Council today and there will be no problem with the extension of the operating right. In the report of the Bills Committee, and just as Mr LAM said earlier, members of the Bills Committee generally support the Bill. This is, of course, the case. What is there for Members to oppose? Deputy President, how do we describe this? This is forcing Members not to raise objection. They are simply left with no choice. It means that Members do not have a choice. They can at most say a few words to criticize the Secretary but Members are made to accept it. We are turned into a tool and when we are turned into this tool, we must accept everything. Otherwise, it would be impossible for the operating right to be extended, in which case the peak tram service would have to be stopped and public interest would be compromised. Tell me, are we not left with no choice? What does it mean by being left with no choice? It is most pathetic for a person to be left with no choice, for it does not need to point a gun at the person's head and he will automatically give his support. "Uncle Fat" is seeking support from everyone now and he may even bring a large school of people to the Legislative Council early next month. He has done a lot of work, buddy. He is trying to leave us with no choice, right? He is making us to expend efforts to no avail, just as he has been doing.
Therefore, I support the view expressed by Mr YIU Si-wing at the meeting of the Bills Committee (and I quote): "[He] consider[s] that as the peak tramway system has evolved from a form of public transport to a tourism facility, the Administration should take the opportunity to explore whether the policy responsibility for overseeing its operation should be changed from the Transport and Housing Bureau to the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau, so as to facilitate its strategic development, as well as for better promotion and co-ordination of tourism facilities." I support this proposal. Secretary, you can wash your hands off this matter and give the right of approval to the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau because tourism is under their purview, and that would be desirable. I agree to this proposal and I wonder what the Secretary thinks about it. If the Government takes on board this view, the service quality of the peak tram service can be enhanced under the overall planning of matching tourism facilities. Furthermore, insofar as the long-term development is concerned, this can allow greater flexibility, and the future handling of the operating right of the peak tramway will involve less complexities.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2945
Moreover, I notice that when scrutinizing the relevant provisions, the Bills Committee raised a lot of specific questions but the Government had been evading them. Let us look at paragraph 9 of the report of the Bills Committee. It says, "the Bills Committee is concerned whether all the issues can be resolved in a timely manner during the two-year interim period. The Administration has advised that it would make every effort to complete the second stage of the legislative amendment exercise within the two-year interim period." It refused to answer members' question with one single remark that it would make every effort to complete its work. What does it mean by "making every effort to complete its work"? This is so abstract.
In fact, the PTC already submitted an application to the Government for an extension of its operating right at the end of 2012. From the past experience, and if we look up the past records, we would note that there should be ample time to process the application. At the special meeting of the Panel on Food Safety and Environmental Hygiene held just yesterday, I drew the attention of the Secretary to the fact that the legislation on private columbarium is making very slow progress. Of course, this is because the former Secretary had stalled for about a decade, and I did ask this man in the last term of this Council whether he could provide a timetable but he did not provide it to us. The matter has since been delayed and now that Dr KO Wing-man has taken over. At first, it was said to be the fourth quarter of this year and now, it has been deferred to the second quarter of next year. Mr Tommy CHEUNG then argued that if a Bill would be tabled only in the second quarter, it would be easy for the tabling of the Bill to the Legislative Council to be deferred to June and the Legislative Council would then rise for the summer recess and in that case, the efforts made would achieve nothing; or the Government may bulldoze the Bill through and get it passed hastily, causing all sorts of trouble for us again. This is another example. Therefore, I think members were reasonable in raising the concern about whether the matter could be resolved in the so-called two-year interim period during the deliberations of the Bills Committee. The Secretary cannot respond to the specific question raised by members in an abstract way, saying that the Government will make every effort to complete its work. Members have raised a very specific question: Can the problem be resolved in the two-year interim period? The Secretary, nevertheless, said that the Government would make every effort to complete its work or do the best it can. What kind of a Government is this?
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Deputy President, I have spent 10 minutes expressing views on this Bill, views that are comparatively not too professional and mature. But let me tell you that I am just using this as an excuse for taking the Secretary to task. You got it? This is, after all, a fact. In paragraph 10 of the report, it is mentioned that the Bills Committee urges the operator to explore measures to improve the queuing environment for passengers and reduce waiting time. This was proposed by Mr WONG Kwok-hing, an elected Member from the Hong Kong Island Geographical Constituency. According to the Administration, the Administration takes note of the concerns of the Bills Committee and advises that it will in due course examine the PTC's upgrading plan for the peak tramway system and services for improvements in the long run. This is nothing more than gibberish. See, Mr WONG Kwok-hing is nodding too. This is absolutely nonsense. Why do they like to talk nonsense so much? Life is short, buddy, and let us not waste our lives here. I am, of course, not talking nonsense here, and Mr Jeffrey LAM, please do not look at me. The plan of the PTC or the operating right of the peak tramway has been discussed for one year and so, this matter must be resolved within the two-year extension period to be granted by virtue of this Bill. I hope that the Secretary, instead of speaking in a bureaucratic tone and saying that it will take actions in due course, will seriously respond to the question raised by members of the Bills Committee and even Members of this Council by telling us frankly whether they can resolve all the problems in a timely manner within this two-year interim period, so to speak. I hope that he can give a clear, concrete response to this Council.
Deputy President, I do not have any view on the other parts of the Bill. I support the Bill. Thank you, Deputy President.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If not, I now call upon the Secretary for Transport and Housing to reply. The debate will come to a close after the Secretary has replied.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2947
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I am grateful to Mr Jeffrey LAM, Chairman of the Bills Committee on Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bills Committee) as well as other members of the Bills Committee for their efforts which enabled the deliberations on the Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bill) to be completed smoothly. My thanks also go to the several Members who have just spoken. We will further follow up their views, especially on ways to improve the peak tramway service.
Mr WONG Yuk-man asked just now why it has taken so long for us to propose the amendment. At the meeting of the Legislative Council Panel on Transport on 19 July, we actually explained why there are problems in the interpretation of the ordinance. Since Mr WONG has raised this question, let me explain it once again at this meeting of the Legislative Council for the record.
Sections 2A(5) and 2A(6) of the existing Peak Tramway Ordinance (the PTO) were added to the PTO in the 1990s of the last century. It was only explained at the time that the Peak Tramways Company Limited (the PTC) could submit an application for extension subject to the approval of the Executive Council upon the expiry of its operating right at the end of 2003, and the expression used at the time was "beyond 2003". The Government and the PTC originally understood these provisions to mean that the right to process and approve an application could be exercised repeatedly without a time limit. In other words, the PTC could submit an application for extension subject to the approval of the Executive Council every time when its operating right expired. For this reason, when the PTC submitted an application for an extension of its operating right in November last year, we in the Government processed the application in accordance with sections 2A(5) and 2A(6).
In March this year, the PTC put forward an upgrading plan to enhance its facilities and services and requested the Government to consider if an operating right of a tenure longer than 10 years could be granted. The Department of Justice (DoJ), therefore, re-examined the relevant provisions and found that the situation was not the same as what the Government and the PTC originally understood.
After detailed studies, the DoJ came to the view that sections 2A(5) and 2A(6) are one-off provisions and as the Executive Council already exercised the right conferred by these provisions in granting the operating right in 2003, it could not grant an extension again under these provisions.
2948 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Generally speaking, one-off or time-limited legal provisions will clearly set out the time limit of the legal effect and should at the same time provide for the so-called "exit mechanism", but neither of these can be found in the existing ordinance, and as there are the words "any further period" in section 2A(5), it was the original understanding of the Government and the PTC that this provision could apply repeatedly, and this is why no early arrangements were made to review or update the law. This is the main reason for our delay in proposing this legislative amendment. I hope that Mr WONG can refer to the paper that we submitted to the Panel on Transport in July.
The purpose of the Government in proposing this Bill is to amend the Peak Tramway Ordinance (Cap. 265) to empower the Chief Executive in Council to grant to the PTC a two-year interim operating right commencing on 1 January 2014 to ensure continued operation of the peak tramway service after the expiry of the PTC's operating right at the end of this year.
Just now I have explained why we found problems with the interpretation of the Ordinance only very recently, which means that the provisions which we thought we could use to grant the operating right again can no longer apply. It is, therefore, necessary to amend the existing Ordinance to empower the Chief Executive in Council to grant the operating right again.
Given that the legislative amendment exercise carries some measure of complexity, we will proceed in two stages.
This Bill proposed today is stage one of the legislative amendment exercise. New legal provisions are added to empower the Chief Executive in Council to grant a two-year interim operating right to the PTC to ensure continuous provision of service by the PTC until the end of 2015. At the meeting of the Panel on Transport in July this year (members of the Panel on Economic Development responsible for tourism matters also took part in the discussion at the meeting) and the meeting of the Bills Committee in October, members generally considered this arrangement necessary and proper, while pointing out that as a popular tourist and recreational facility for locals and tourists alike, the peak tramway service should not be disrupted because of the legal problem.
After the passage of this Bill in the Legislative Council, we will expeditiously seek the consent of the Chief Executive in Council for the grant of a two-year interim operating right to the PTC subject to the payment of a premium LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2949 by the PTC to the Government for the use of Government land where the track rails are located. The Lands Department is currently assessing the amount of the premium and discussions will also be held with the PTC. The finalized amount of premium will be taken into account by the Chief Executive in Council in considering the grant of the operating right. We will make an announcement when a decision is made.
Upon completion of the first stage of the legislative amendment exercise, the Government will, during the two-year interim period, study and determine the long-term arrangements for the operating right of the peak tramway in order to work out the second-stage amendment proposals. As suggested by members of the Panel on Transport and the Panel on Economic Development at the meetings in July, the Government should look into a number of issues relating to the long-term arrangements, which mainly include (a) drawing up an "exit mechanism" in case the right to operate the peak tramway is subject to transfer; and (b) establishing a mechanism to determine the amount of premium payable by the operator in the event that it involves the use of Government land in providing the peak tramway service.
Mr WONG questioned earlier whether the Government could complete its work in two years despite its vow to make every effort to this end. I can tell Members here that our goal is to report to the Legislative Council next year, that is, 2014 after concluding our discussions with the PTC on these arrangements. We also have to assess the merits and feasibility of the upgrading plan submitted some time ago to the Government by the PTC for enhancing its facilities and services. If the upgrading plan is found to be feasible and meritorious, the Government will consider taking measures to provide support accordingly in drawing up the long-term arrangements for the operating right.
A number of Members mentioned how improvements can be made to the peak tramway service and the queuing arrangements for passengers given that the number of passengers has increased substantially. Judging from the figures, it is true that the number of peak tram passengers has increased substantially over the past decade. Mr Frankie YICK also mentioned some figures earlier on, and we can see that over the past decade, the daily average patronage has increased from 8 471 to 16 931 as at September this year according to the records, meaning that the daily patronage has doubled. In view of this, how the queuing arrangements for passengers can be improved and how the carrying capacity can be improved 2950 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 are issues that the PTC must address indeed. I do not wish that the PTC will take a "could-not-care-less" attitude on account of its dominance in the market, just as Mr WONG Kwok-hing said in expressing his concern earlier. During our discussions with the PTC, we understand that they have all along made plans to continuously improve its facilities and service standard. To cope with the crowds during peak hours, the PTC has adopted a number of measures, including an advance booking system for group tours to buy tram tickets, diversion and crowd control measures during designated periods, and providing more signage for queuing passengers. The PTC is also holding discussions with the Transport Department and the police on ways to further improve the queuing arrangement. However, we should understand that there is really just limited space near the peak tram stations and other vehicles and pedestrians are also users of the road space. Therefore, it is inevitable for congestion or crowdedness to appear sometimes. That said, as to the questions of how best the queues can be controlled and how best the crowds can be diverted, the PTC must certainly step up efforts to make improvement.
Despite crowdedness in the waiting area, we can note from the complaints involving the peak tramway service received by the Transport Complaints Unit (TCU) that the number of such cases is actually quite low. The figures from 2004 to the first quarter of 2013 show that no more than two complaints were lodged with the TCU on average each year. So, judging from the figures, the situation does not warrant grave concern from us. But anyway, the peak tramway is a major tourism facility and a tourist attraction of Hong Kong, and from the tourism angle, it is indeed necessary for more improvements to be made.
Deputy President, our goal is to draw up all the long-term arrangements in the two-year interim operating right period, which certainly includes the formulation of the Bill in the second stage for consultation with the Legislative Council while allowing ample time for deliberations on the Bill by the Legislative Council.
After the enactment of this Bill, the Chief Executive in Council will be empowered to grant an interim operating right to the PTC, so as to enable the continuous operation of the peak tramway in the next two years as a major tourist attraction of Hong Kong. This will also enable all sides, including the Government and the PTC, to have sufficient time to make proper planning and preparation for the long-term arrangements during the interim period. This LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2951 two-stage approach has been well received by the community, particularly the tourism industry, for it can ensure that the peak tramway service is not terminated, and it also won support from the Bills Committee as well as members of the Panel on Transport and the Panel on Economic Development of the Legislative Council.
Deputy President, I move the resumed Second Reading of the Bill and implore Members to support its passage.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013.
Council went into Committee.
Committee Stage
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in committee.
2952 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
PEAK TRAMWAY (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1, 2 and 3.
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That clauses 1, 2 and 3 stand part of the Bill. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council now resumes.
Council then resumed.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2953
Third Reading of Bills
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.
PEAK TRAMWAY (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the
Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 has passed through the Committee stage without amendment. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013 be read the Third time and do pass.
Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
2954 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
CLERK (in Cantonese): Peak Tramway (Amendment) Bill 2013.
MEMBERS' MOTIONS
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' motions. There are a total of three Members' motions for this meeting.
First Member's motion: Proposed resolution under the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance to extend the period for amending the Air Pollution Control (Air Pollutant Emission) (Controlled Vehicles) Regulation, which was laid on the table of this Council on 30 October 2013.
I now call upon Ms Cyd HO to speak and move the motion.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION UNDER SECTION 34(4) OF THE INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES ORDINANCE
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): Deputy President, in my capacity as Chairman of the Subcommittee on Air Pollution Control (Air Pollutant Emission) (Controlled Vehicles) Regulation, I move that the motion, as printed on the Agenda, be passed.
At the meeting of the House Committee on 1 November 2013, Members agreed to set up a subcommittee to study the Regulation. As the Subcommittee needs more time for deliberation, I urge Members to support the motion so that the scrutiny period of the Regulation can be extended to 18 December 2013.
Deputy President, I urge Members to support this motion.
Ms Cyd HO moved the following motion:
"RESOLVED that in relation to the Air Pollution Control (Air Pollutant Emission) (Controlled Vehicles) Regulation, published in the Gazette as Legal Notice No. 160 of 2013, and laid on the table of the Legislative Council on 30 October 2013, the period for amending subsidiary legislation referred to in section 34(2) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap. 1) be extended LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2955
under section 34(4) of that Ordinance to the meeting of 18 December 2013."
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Ms Cyd HO be passed.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Ms Cyd HO be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion passed.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The second and the third Members' motions are motion debates with no legislative effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee: that is, the movers of motions each may speak, including making a reply, for up to 15 minutes, and have another five minutes to speak on the amendments; the movers of amendments each may speak for up to 10 minutes; and other Members each may speak for up to seven minutes. I am obliged to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue.
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DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second Member's motion: Reducing taxes across the board.
Members who wish to speak in the motion debate will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon Mr Paul TSE to speak and move the motion.
REDUCING TAXES ACROSS THE BOARD
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I move that the motion as printed on the Agenda be passed.
Today's question is related to taxes, but it is definitely not confined to taxes. The topic of tax reduction has not been raised as a subject for discussion in this Council for a long time even though tax reduction is a great concern of the middle class.
If Members have read the newspapers today, they will note a piece of international news about the Mayor of Toronto. Owing to his recent words and deeds, the City Council has passed a motion to limit his powers. Since the City Council has no power to instantly dismiss the Mayor, it has passed a motion to deduct 60% from the expenditure of the Mayor's office in order to limit its powers.
Certainly, today's motion is about taxes. But the actual gist is to allay people's grievances through tax reduction and improve the Government's popularity in the short term. The Chief Executive often mentions the concept of "appropriately proactive governance". The motion I proposed today seeks to impose appropriate sanction on the Government by means of tax reduction.
Let me cite some simple examples to show the popularity of the Government. A simple matter which may even be a piece of good news itself, such as the subsidy of reportedly $1 million given to Ms YIK Siu-ling by the Philippines, may lead to criticism that Mr LEUNG Chun-ying has "claimed the credit" if he said in response that he has made efforts in achieving the result. How lamentably low is the Government's popularity?
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Insofar as this motion is concerned, if the Chief Executive or the Government is willing to listen and accept our suggestion, the proposed measure will become a policy introduced by the Chief Executive on his own initiative and he will definitely not be criticized as "claiming the credit" because tax reduction is definitely a benevolent policy of the current-term Government if he is willing to implement it.
Here I would like to state at the outset that this motion will not cause any harm to the grass-roots people because the huge amount of surplus in the Treasury enables the Government to provide various benefits to them if the Government is willing to do so. So, tax reduction, if implemented, will never prevent the Government from doing what it should do. Conversely, tax revenue and fiscal surplus will be left idle if the Government is reluctant to do anything at all. The main direction of this motion aims at putting the Government's popularity back on track in the short term.
In the remaining part of my speech, I will explain seriatim 10 reasons for proposing this motion. And I will make the best use of my time.
Firstly, "inappropriate". As we all know, it is absolutely inappropriate to carry on any business or engage in affairs which should be conducted by the private sector with the Government's resources. We can see that the Government's efficiency has clearly lagged behind that of the private market in conducting a lot of businesses. Take Radio Television Hong Kong as an example. It has recently been criticized for spending $6 billion on the construction of its headquarters. There was also the criticism that it should not hold the Top 10 Chinese Gold Songs Award in the past. All these are examples of business that should not be conducted by the Government.
Certainly, it is inappropriate for the Government to conduct certain business because of efficiency and the nature of the business. I will discuss the problems in urban renewal if I have the opportunity to do so later. More importantly, it is inappropriate for the Government to engage in certain business due to its competitive advantage.
Let us take a look at the recent rating by the Heritage Foundation. Hong Kong and Singapore are ranked the world's most competitive economies. These two cities are renowned for their uniqueness in several aspects, including low tax rates for one thing. The salaries tax rate and profits tax rate of Hong Kong are 2958 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
15% and 16.5% respectively, while those of Singapore are 20% and 17% respectively. The tax rates in both cities are also very low. For another, government expenditure accounts for a very low percentage of the GDP. It is 14.5% and 14.1 % in Hong Kong and Singapore respectively. In addition, the ratio of tax burden is also very low, that is, 19.2% and 17 % for the two cities respectively. These figures prove that low tax rates enable a city to enjoy a competitive advantage.
Secondly, "unwise". After talking about "inappropriate", I am going to talk about "unwise". Let me cite the words of a famous political figure, Margaret THATCHER. She said it is definitely inappropriate for the Government to over-collect tax revenues from the people. It is also inappropriate for the Government to use tax revenues in a wrong way. On the contrary, tax revenue should be used in an appropriate and wise manner. There are two situations in which tax revenue may be used in an unwise manner: It is not spent when it should be; it is spent when it should not, or it should be saved but the Government has failed to do so.
According to a recent tidbit of gossip, the chairs purchased by the Chief Executive's Office are priced at $13,000 each. These expenses are absolutely inappropriate. A newly published report of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) has pointed out that many departments have incurred expenses which should have been avoided. I will make a more detailed analysis in this aspect if I have the opportunity to do so. The PAC will soon publish a report on a more sensational issue which is also more eye-catching: the expenses of the Independent Commission Against Corruption which are considered inappropriate.
Now I come to the third point after "inappropriate" and "unwise", which is "reluctant". There a lot of things on which the Government is reluctant to spend money. I will leave the opportunity to Honourable colleagues from the pan-democratic camp to express their views in this regard. They often cite a lot of examples to criticize the Government for not spending money where it is due. To save time, I will not go into the details in this aspect.
Fourthly, "unmistakable". Deputy President, it will be unmistakable to implement tax reduction. Why? Capitalism is practiced in Hong Kong and the most important principle of capitalism is to implement the philosophy of small government so that there is sufficient liquidity in the market. Apart from sufficient liquidity in the market, there are other features of a capitalist city. As LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2959 reported by the press, Mr LEE Shau-kee, who has done charities from time to time in recent years, announced yesterday that a 100 000 sq ft lot at Lam Tei would be donated for the construction of an elderly hostel at a cost of more than $100 million. Initiatives like this should be encouraged. Apart from businessmen such as LEE Shau-kee and Mr LI Ka-shing in Hong Kong, there is Bill GATES overseas. One of his famous initiatives is to return all the wealth he has made to the community. These are the practices in a capitalistic city. Meanwhile, it is contrary to the major principle of capitalism if the Government is compelled to be a "big government" by making commitments which will incur huge expenses.
I said it will be unmistakable to reduce taxes. In fact, there are precedents for our reference. Just now, I mentioned Singapore as an example. Let me compare Hong Kong and Singapore in the past 16 years after the reunification. In Singapore, tax reduction was implemented with the tax rate being cut from 26% to 17% during this period. However, tax reduction has not led to deterioration of its economy or a drop in government spending. On the contrary, the overall levels in respect of investment return or revenue from profits tax have not changed. Even though tax rates have been cut, the same amount of tax revenues can be maintained. So, the 16-year experience in Singapore has proved that tax reduction is unmistakable. It will attract more foreign capital and stimulate private investment, resulting in a more buoyant market.
The fifth point is "shortly", meaning that the time is short because all depend on the development of our economy. During the consultation period of the upcoming budget, we can discuss tax reduction in the next few months at least. If the Government can reduce taxes immediately, it should be a great benevolent policy. If the financial condition of the Government has been deteriorating or fiscal reserves have been dropping after tax reduction has been implemented for a few years, the policy of tax reduction can certainly be modified if necessary. But we can see that the policy of tax reduction is sustainable in the near future.
Deputy President, now I come to the sixth point, which is "dissatisfaction". Perhaps, I should say "no" to CY instead of "dissatisfaction" because the current-term Government has to face at least four major problems. Firstly, the public have serious distrust in the Chief Executive. We can see that simple matters such as the issuance of new television licences and the proven decision-making power of the Executive Council which was exercised without 2960 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 giving any explanation to the public are not trusted by the people when exercised by CY. They do not trust the words of CY at all. There is smoke even without fire. The people's distrust is a great obstacle faced by the Government.
Secondly, apart from the lack of trust, there is a lack of confidence. What is the implication when there is no confidence in the Government? Many civil servants, who perform their duties according to regulations or proven guidelines, have become timid and dare not do anything because the Government is not trusted and even attacked by all quarters. As a result, there are a lot of controversies. As the civil servants are too timid to do anything, they naturally cannot perform their duties in an efficient manner. On the contrary, the Chief Executive as "one single man" is ambitious in launching his policies despite opposition. While the civil servants are too timid to do anything, the Chief Executive has to exert vigorous efforts and take up every task on his own. He has to fight with his bare hands. The lack of confidence is a big problem.
Another problem is a lack of achievement. I believe it will take some time for me to read out its achievements. Let me talk about some of the Chief Executive's most important concerns. Regarding public housing, for instance, what measures have been rolled out by the Government? Regarding land, what developments have we seen? There is also room for improvement and more efforts are needed in respect of many simple measures such as the "powdered formula restriction order" and the "double curbs measures" because nothing has been achieved. These are also the characteristics of the current-term Government.
Apart from the lack of trust, lack of confidence and lack of achievement, there is another characteristic: harmless. Why? Deputy President, according to opinion polls, the Chief Executive's popularity has been dropping since his assumption of office. But in September 2013, his popularity rating suddenly rose by a small margin to nearly 50 points. After checking it out, it was found that the Chief Executive had taken leave for two weeks. If the Government's popularity will rise when it stops operating, does it mean that no harm will be caused even if the Government does not do anything? Basically, facing such a situation, it is absolutely inappropriate for the Government to take up too many responsibilities, and it is absolutely right to let the community give full play to its role.
Deputy President, the seventh point is "uncertainty" or unclarity after the sixth point of "dissatisfaction". There are a lot of funds. Deputy President, we LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2961 have more than 30 funds. No one knows where the money earmarked to these funds has gone. Some people even said the Government has deliberately set aside the money so that it will not be subject to the monitoring of the Legislative Council when some projects have to be launched in the future. These funds include the Community Care Fund, the Environment and Conservation Fund, the Employees Retraining Fund and the Language Fund. Although a lot of money has been earmarked for these funds, the Government has still injected a total of $40 billion into them in 2013-2014. Precisely because of the unclear purposes of the money for these funds, we think it is inappropriate for the Government to collect so much in tax revenue.
The eighth point is "unnecessary". This meaning of "unnecessary" is very obvious given that our fiscal reserves have reached $800 billion. There is a total of $2,800 billion in the Exchange Fund (certainly including the fiscal reserves). According to the actual amount of fiscal reserves to be required, the Government, with a surplus of $800 billion, can operate for two or three years without receiving any tax revenue at all. Besides, as there is $2,800 billion in the Exchange Fund and the value of Hong Kong dollar issued amounts to around $330 billion, the reserves are almost 10 times of our issued currency. No country in the world has so huge fiscal reserves. This is also the reason why we consider high tax rates unnecessary.
Deputy President, the ninth point is "poor". What does "poor" refer to? I mean the work of urban renewal. The work of the Government in urban renewal is poor. Recently, there is a news report about urban renewal. Regarding the Park Metropolitan built by the Urban Renewal Authority (URA), for instance, the old residential units on the same site were acquired by the URA at about $5,937 per square foot in 2008. But now, the Park Metropolitan is being sold at $14,300 per square foot. As for Harmony Place by the Housing Society at Shau Kei Wan, the acquisition price of the old residential units was about $4,000 per square foot, but the current selling price is $13,800 per square foot. The selling price of Queen's Cube by the URA is approximately $15,700 per square foot while the old residential units at the same site were purchased at around $4,000 per square foot in 2003. What has highlighted by these figures? It has highlighted the fact that the purchase prices of the old residential units are very cheap, but the selling prices of the new residential units are too expensive. The Hong Kong Connection held the view that the authorities, with a surplus of $4.4 billion, should not compete with the people for profits.
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Deputy President, the last point is "do not stick to one's last". This is far more fascinating. The prime responsibility of the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) is to defend the soundness of Hong Kong's financial system and the Hong Kong dollar. However, the HKMA carries on irrelevant businesses. After spending $3.7 billion on purchasing a 14-floor property for its own in 2003, it has engaged in property speculation recently possibly because it has too much money. In a joint venture with the British-based Great Portland Estates, it has bought an office building in London as investment. It simply does not stick to its last and carries on irrelevant businesses.
Deputy President, on the whole, today's motion seeks not only to discuss tax revenues, but also aims at highlighting some issues again. I hope that apart from pointing out the advantages of low tax rates or low tax revenues, this unpopular Government, which is distrusted by the people, can improve its popularity in the short term by reducing unnecessary attrition and controversies through implementing tax reduction. I hope the Chief Executive will consider my suggestion. In fact, this is really a benevolent policy. Moreover, he no longer has to argue whether the payment of $1 million for Ms YIK Siu-ling is the fruit of his negotiation. Tax reduction will be the best benevolent policy of the current-term Government as the middle class will benefit from it without jeopardizing the interests of the grass-roots people.
Thank you, Deputy President.
Mr Paul TSE moved the following motion: (Translation)
"That this Council urges the SAR Government to expeditiously reduce taxes across the board to return wealth to the people."
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Paul TSE be passed.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Nine Members wish to move amendments to this motion. This Council will now proceed to a joint debate on the motion and the nine amendments.
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I will first call up Miss CHAN Yuen-han to speak, to be followed by Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Mr WONG Ting-kwong and Mr Ronny TONG respectively; but they may not move amendments at this stage.
MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, in any society and regardless of whether it is socialist or capitalist, one of the functions of its tax regime is to achieve redistribution of wealth in say, a society with disparity of wealth. It is unfortunate that in Hong Kong, despite it being a wealthy city, very little is done in this aspect.
I wish to cite some figures to Members to illustrate the point that due to government inaction, certain problems have appeared. I am not blaming the Government, only that the objective fact is that the Government has not done well in enabling the tax regime to play a role when disparity of wealth emerges in society. In 2011, the per capita GDP of Hong Kong was $285,000, but the wealth gap ranked number one in the world. The situation here is even worse than many countries in Africa.
In September this year, the Government finally set a poverty line and it was set at 50% of the median household income. At that time, we already thought that this represented progress. Of course, there is still much the Government should do, or else it is useless even when a poverty line is set. In 2012, the median monthly household income was $20,700 and using the standard of the poverty line, there were 1.31 million poor people in Hong Kong, or close to 20% of the total population.
According to this standard, it is estimated that there are 160 000 households or 537 000 people who belong to the working poor. In other words, even if the minimum wage is now in force, their income is still on the low side. Besides, one in every five children is living beneath the poverty line and one in every three elderly persons is also living under the poverty line. In such an affluent place like Hong Kong, the overall poverty rate is as high as 20%, and 20% of the children and 30% of the elderly are living beneath the poverty line. This situation is unacceptable to people from any class in this affluent city.
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Even with the subsidy from government welfare benefits, there are still 1.02 million poor people here and the number translates into about 400 000 households. If we study the wealth gap problem in Hong Kong, we will find that this is closely related to the unfair tax regime. With respect to this, the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) has been airing our views for a long time, but the Government has turned a deaf ear to us, like the attitude it shows in handling certain policies.
All along the Government has been saying that it practises a low tax rate policy. This concept dates back to the colonial era when the purpose was to secure a simple source of tax revenue to finance government expenditure and that was considered sufficient. In the 1960s and the 1970s, as a result of the economic take-off, this simple tax regime served to attract investments and encourage the development of commerce and industries. Hence this is deemed as a golden rule by the Government and used up to now. The result of this is a number of problems of unfairness in the tax regime. There are many kinds of domination and monopolization by the giant consortia (including trusts), and they all stem from the tax regime as practised by the Government.
In the face of this dysfunction, the Government has not drummed up enough courage and engaged in redistribution of wealth. For example, as I have advocated for more than 10 years in this Chamber, and every time when mention is made of the tax regime here, I would talk about the principle of vertical equity, that is, those who earn more should pay more in tax. Despite the fact that in the salaries tax, this direction is adopted and those who earn more have to pay more tax, a ridiculous situation appears in profits tax and that is, irrespective of how much a company earns, all companies have to pay tax at a rate of 17.5%. In such a process, the Government does not abide by the principle of equity so that those which are financially more capable are asked to shoulder a greater responsibility and companies which make more profits are asked to pay tax at a higher rate, just like the case of salaries tax.
I must emphasize that this practice is unlike what certain people from the business sector are saying, that it is meant to penalize those who make more money. I would ask people from the business sector who hold this view to look at what is being done in the advanced countries and places in the West. In these countries and places, what is being advocated is the idea that those who make more money should make more contribution to society. This is not only an honour but also a commitment to society. This situation is getting more and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2965 more popular in many countries. Many well-known people like Bill GATES have pledged to donate all of their wealth and companies which make huge profits are willing to pay more back to society. There are many of these examples around.
I often ask people from the business sector these questions: should compensation be made for overtime work? If companies which make more profits do not even want to follow this simple rule of justice, can they talk about corporate responsibility to society? If only those companies which make a profit of more than $10 million are asked to pay 1% more in tax, the annual tax revenue will increase by $800 million to $1 billion every year. When the tax revenue is used on such areas like education or retirement protection, it can really alleviate the wealth gap problem. So the FTU has all along thought that the profits tax should be brought on par with the salaries tax whereby a progressive approach should be adopted to require those companies which make more profits to pay more tax.
We think therefore that the tax regime in Hong Kong must be changed. The profits tax in Hong Kong is only 17.5% and this lags behind many of our neighbours. On the Mainland, the profits tax rate is 25%. It is 24.2% in South Korea and it is as high as 38% in Japan. In these countries, they also charge indirect taxes such as capital gains tax and sales tax at a rate of 5% and 10% respectively. From this it can be seen that the tax rate for companies operating in Hong Kong is still low and even if the tax regime is changed into a progressive one, it will not undermine our competitiveness. The experience of our competitors shows that an increase in profits tax does not produce any impact on the business environment and competitiveness.
The FTU considers that the Government should introduce a new tax such as capital gains tax to address this situation of the rich getting richer and the poor becoming poorer. The FTU has been talking about the introduction of a capital gains tax for more than 10 years to require companies whose increase in profits has reached a certain percentage to pay more tax. This can apply the principles of vertical equity and "earning more, paying more".
Honourable colleagues, nowadays in Hong Kong people are all scolding others and criticizing the grassroots for making numerous demands. They also say that Members like us are making excessive demands. We just want to ask in return, why are there more and more people who oppose the Government, the business sector and real estate hegemony? I would think that we should not look 2966 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 at things from this perspective and we should refer to those many examples cited by me. One of these is about BLOOMBERG. When ordinary members of the middle class in New York cannot afford the property prices, he made instant changes to the sale and purchase procedures and required any person who builds homes in New York to set aside 20% of the flats for lease at a lower rent to others in order to get an extra 30% in plot ratio. This can achieve a win-win effect, for it can both help alleviate the hostility towards the rich and address the needs of the investors. Why can Hong Kong not imitate this?
Some people say that the tax base should be widened because the grassroots in Hong Kong pay too little tax. I will get furious whenever I hear this kind of remarks. Recently, I attended a talk held in The Hong Kong Polytechnic University together with Prof YIP Siu-fai from the University of Hong Kong. In the meeting Prof YIP queried why the wages in Hong Kong were so low and there were arguments in society on setting the level at somewhere between $30 and $35. He thought that there was no reason for that. He also queried why no compensation was paid for overtime work. He cited an example which left a deep impression on me and that was, he said that a hamburger cost $60 in Oslo, Norway. This made him suspect why there was such a big difference between the price of a hamburger in Norway and Hong Kong. After studying the issue, he found out that those people who buy a hamburger in Norway can get a wage of $120 an hour. But in Hong Kong, it is considered very good if people can get an hourly wage of some $30 to $40. Now the people from the business sector are saying that foreign workers should be imported and those in the catering industry are saying that it is difficult to run a business, and so on. But is it fair to place all the costs and expenses on the grassroots?
I often say that the growth in real wage over the past 10 years was only $1. But the rentals for commercial premises in Wan Chai have risen from $69 per square foot to $138 per square foot. The problem is caused by the surge in rent. Why does the Government not address this problem and instead target the grass-roots workers and refuse to raise their wages by even one cent? This is a big question I have got. Why is it that in other capitalist societies, the workers are given such good treatment? In a capitalist society, if a balance can be struck among the interests of people from all classes and if such an extreme situation does not appear, then it would be helpful to the Government as well. However, this does not mean that I agree with the logic in the argument presented by Mr Paul TSE. I agree that if the Government is to launch policies beneficial to the people, there will be fewer grievances among them. And the young people will LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2967 not grumble so much and people will not be so upset about the question of watching TV. This is a fundamental question we have to think about.
Deputy President, I hope that this amendment of mine can be passed. This is actually a practice that I have been advocating for a long time. I hope Members will not place too much faith in free economy for it will deprive many people of their freedom. A large number of poor people will lose the freedom to choose jobs with a higher pay. Is this where our society is to go? I wish to ask, why can we not use the tax regime to solve the problem?
Deputy President, I hope the Council will remain open in addressing the problem of disparity of wealth faced by the grassroots in Hong Kong. Thank you.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, who does not want to pay less tax? It could be many people's wish that they will not be required to pay any tax at all. A Member proposes a motion on "Reducing taxes across the board". Well, it is true that this topic may attract people's attention. But for someone in politics who is responsible and when there are all kinds of taxes aimed at different groups and targets ― some of these are those tycoons and giant companies who are so fat that they are unable to pull up their socks, so to speak; as well as the middle class who bear a heavy tax burden and there are those from the middle and lower classes who are at the edge of the tax net and have to work hard from hand to moth ― can taxes really be reduced across the board in these three kinds of circumstances and without asking the reasons why? And we have not counted those citizens who have to pay high rents and make expensive mortgage loan repayments every month under the high land price policy of the Government. They are in fact paying a kind of indirect tax. So will a reduction of taxes bring any benefit to them?
This proposal to reduce taxes across the board is not a one-off measure, nor is it a measure to hand out sweeteners. It will bring far-reaching effects. In this case, should those in politics not put forward convincing arguments and target citizens or groups of citizens and raise this proposal to meet their needs?
The Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (ADPL) knows that every year the Government makes mistakes in financial estimates and it even deliberately underestimates revenue to fit its principle of "keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues". The result is, for many 2968 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 years, the actual revenue turns out to be far higher than expenditure and there are calls in society for tax reduction.
Deputy President, just take a look at the figures and we will understand the case. In last year, the internal revenue of the Government was $244.4 billion (which is about 55% of the total revenue). Of this sum the revenue from profits tax was $125.5 billion, that from salaries tax was $50.4 billion and that from stamp duty was $25 billion. When added to the revenue from land premium which was $69.5 billion and the income from investments made by the Exchange Fund which was $39.5 billion, the total revenue last year was $442.1 billion. The total expenditure was $377.3 billion. Hence there was a surplus of $64.8 billion.
Let us look at the account books for the year before last. The total expenditure in 2011-2012 was $364 billion, with the revenue being $437.7 billion, hence there was a surplus of $73.7 billion. For the year 2010-2012, revenue was likewise far greater than expenditure and the surplus was $75.1 billion. Over the past six years, the Treasury has registered a $60 billion surplus on average every year. Some people describe this kind of huge surplus as "structural recurrent surplus" and hence they demand a reduction of taxes across the board, just like what is being proposed in today's motion.
But there is another extreme and, that is, to save up the money and not use it. This means all the money is saved up and put in a safe place, like under the pillow, beneath the bed or inside a cookie tin. Although these places are filled with money, the kids and the old folks do not have a good time. They have to bear with poor living conditions. But the person who is in charge of money matters has a heart of stone, unmoved by the plight of his family although he has got a lot of money in his hands. Just what kind of a world is this?
Deputy President, is this not an apt description of the SAR Government? The SAR Government puts up the excuse of preparing for the rainy days, but it is playing a miser, piling up the surplus indefinitely. The Government is blind to the immense needs in society. It only aims at making the account books look nice and well. According to figures at the end of last year, the fiscal reserves are $733.9 billion. This means that over the past six years, and at an average of $60 billion a year, the revenue accounts for half of the Government's reserves. If this sum is calculated in compound interest, there is an increase of reserves by 13% year on year. Some people may think that if the reserves of some LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2969
$360 billion are used to meet needs in society, this will surely bring many positive changes. Deeply-rooted problems like poverty, housing, and so on, will be ameliorated greatly.
Deputy President, I wish to say that these yearly surpluses and the piling up of huge amounts of reserves are in fact a false impression. This is the result of the Government not using the savings from the hard-earned money of the people. It is the result of hard toil by the people. We can remember that every year the budget is like a game of crying wolf. Over the past five financial years, there is a great difference between the budgets compiled by the Financial Secretary and the actual balance. Take last year as an example, it was estimated at first that there would be a deficit of $3.4 billion, but in the end a surplus of $64.8 was recorded. The difference was the greatest for the year 2010-2011. It was estimated at first that the deficit would be as much as $25.2 billion. But in the end it became a surplus of $75.1 billion. The difference was as much as $100.3 billion.
What about this financial year? The Financial Secretary predicts that there will be a deficit of $4.9 billion for the year 2013-2014. But even the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) from the pro-establishment camp will not believe it. It is estimated that there will be some $60 billion as surplus this year. It is obvious that this kind of low estimation made and high actual result will appear again. Deputy President, what kind of game do you think the Financial Secretary is playing? He only wants to repeat his trick. Is this the so-called philosophy of financial management of his?
Deputy President, the Financial Secretary keeps on creating a false impression of deficits and income failing to meet expenditure. The motive behind this is obvious enough. He is blindly adhering to the principle that public spending should be kept within 20% or below that of the GDP. And he is playing with the trick of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues as prescribed in the Basic Law.
Deputy President, for many years and under the principle of "small government and big market", public spending has been kept strictly at or below 20% of the GDP. This is in blatant disregard of the ever-rising demand for government services by the people and it hampers the development of new services. A classic example is places in residential homes for the elderly. The 2970 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 elderly people may not even get a place even to their dying day. There are numerous people waiting for their turn at the specialist out-patient clinics. Young people scramble for university places every year. This practice of compressing spending will delay the solution of social problems and public demands indefinitely. When the Government does not spend money where it is due, then there is this situation of surplus being recorded every year.
All these show that the Government is too conservative in its financial management and every year the Financial Secretary makes use of underestimating government revenue to suppress public expectation for more public spending. In fact, when the Basic Law talks about keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues, it is premised on estimates being reasonable and past figures. It is only when spending is like this that it can be in line with income. Financial gimmicks should not be used to underestimate income deliberately. When underestimated income is used for so many years to plan services and the estimated expenditure for the coming years, the resources available will not be enough to meet public demand. This trick of formulating expenditure by underestimating income is a clear contravention of the principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues as prescribed in the Basic Law.
I still remember LEUNG Chun-ying say something in opposition to Donald TSANG during the election. LEUNG opined that it is not practical to insist that public spending be kept within a certain limit, that is, within 20% of the GDP. However, he considers that he has passed the test after winning the election and sticks to the same principle in the budgets for the following five years. He compresses public spending at 20% or below that of the GDP while the fiscal reserves keep on piling up without any ceiling. There is absolutely no principle in this and there is no consideration of making the best use of the reserves to solve social problems.
Deputy President, this is what LEUNG Chun-ying vows to be the concept of governance called "appropriately proactive governance". Apparently, he is saying one thing but doing quite another. He tries to sound nice and well when running in the Chief Executive election. But once he is elected, he follows the footsteps of Donald TSANG. And for John TSANG, he adheres to the former rule and uses the financial policy of Donald TSANG, and he is still doing the job of a Financial Secretary without any difficulty.
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The motion topic today of "Reducing taxes across the board" is actually a false proposition. If the Financial Secretary can really keep expenditure within the limits of revenues and refrains from using his financial gimmicks to underestimate revenue and compress public spending at 20% of the GDP or below, we will not have a surplus year on year and there is no justification to support a full-scale and sustained tax reduction.
Therefore, the problem does not lie in reducing taxes or otherwise, but instead in a complete revamp of the existing financial management strategy and how tax revenue and fiscal reserves can be used to solve social problems and meet public demands.
I so submit.
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the motion today is "Reducing taxes across the board" so as to return wealth to the people. But what is the aim of reducing taxes? Is it because of a need to win popularity and attain a better rating? Or does tax reduction serve a greater social benefit or economic benefit? I wish to explore this question today.
Looking at a recent survey done by KPMG, we can find that now the profits tax in Hong Kong stands at 16.5% while the average profits tax rate of the European Union(EU) is 22.85%; the average profits tax in the OECD is 25% while the global average profits tax rate is about 24%. In terms of personal taxes, now the salaries tax in Hong Kong is 15% while the average in the EU is 37.8% and 41.5% in the OECD. The global average is 31.89%. We can see from these figures that our tax rate is already very low, so why is there a need to reduce taxes?
On certain theoretical basis for the arguments, I think the Secretary would be interested in learning about them. In the 1980s, the supply side economics school during the REAGAN Administration pointed out that tax reduction could stimulate the economy. But our tax base is relatively narrow and the tax rate is low. Just what will be the effect of a tax reduction on stimulating the economy? I do have great doubts about that.
I am sure the Secretary also knows that a scholar called Arthur LAFFER from the supply side economics school points out in his LAFFER curve that it 2972 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 may not be true to say that an indefinite increase in tax will lead to an indefinite increase in government revenue. And there is an optimal point to it. If taxes are to be increased or reduced, I hope the Government can examine first which point in the LAFFER curve Hong Kong will go before it decides to take such a step.
Actually, taxes are meant for three things: first, to provide income for the government and maintain the operation of social services and the government; second, to achieve distribution of social resources; and third, to encourage certain social acts or economic acts that are deemed as positive or correct, or discourage those which are not at all correct, such as when we levy a tax on tobacco and wine, the aim of which is to discourage certain behaviour which is considered not popular.
When looking at these three aims of taxation, is the tax regime in Hong Kong able to achieve these? What kind of situation does it create? Many Honourable colleagues have pointed out that the low tax rate, simple tax regime and taxation according to place of origin, and so on, as practised in Hong Kong have been maintained for a century. I do not want to change these features. But looking back at the three functions of taxation which I have just mentioned, there are many places in the tax regime of Hong Kong that can be improved.
In terms of revenue, Hong Kong has over $700 billion in reserves. Under this assumption, the aim of providing income for the Government can presumably be achieved. A few weeks ago this Council discussed the broadening of the tax base and there was no political consensus regarding this issue. So I will not talk about the question of using taxes to provide a source of revenue. This is because I think or I would assume that this aim is basically achieved.
The second aim is redistribution of resources, that is, to make use of revenue and expenditure to achieve better use of social resources. On the question of providing care and attention to the disadvantaged and the lower class, it can be said that we do have good revenue and there is a surplus every year. But can the aim of redistribution of resources be achieved simply through the tax regime alone? Deputy President, I would think that there is not much we can do. If resources are to be better redistributed, I would think that in Hong Kong, we should not look at the income but the expenditure and other social policies.
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Deputy President, I can give an example for that. About what is called the policy level, I would think that the Government should reconsider the policy of high land price and whether there is a need to keep it. Do we have the best supply and demand ratio for housing in the public and private sectors? I can ask Members this question: Do the people want a fall in property prices by 10% across Hong Kong or a tax reduction by 1%?
On 16 October, I moved a motion on "Optimizing public finances and enhancing the impetus for innovation in Hong Kong's economy". I proposed that the Government should build on the social infrastructure and increase capital outlay. This is not meant to change or revise the tax regime but only hoping that the Government can make some effective long-term investments and increase recurrent expenditure appropriately. Of course, by increasing recurrent expenditure appropriately, it is mainly aimed at helping the disadvantaged groups in society.
Third, does the tax regime encourage positive and correct social and economic behaviour? Actually, I do not think it does. And it has done very little on that. With respect to this issue, I have two or three points to make. First, there is in fact no certainty in our tax regime. A tax regime which does not have any certainty will only make the investors feel worried. I hope that the Government can undertake a timely review of our laws and practising guidelines. The idea of uncertainty which I talk about refers to many aspects, for example, in terms of our sources of income. After the case of ING Baring, there has been a substantial decrease in cases concerning sources of income. However, there are some recent cases concerning book profits of cash receivable. Earlier on the Court of Final Appeal made a ruling in the Nice Cheer case. How does the Government look at this? The laws we have are not very certain about matters like the deduction of interest and source of income from interest. I have been involved in tax practice for more than 20 years and up to now I am not too sure about the stipulations in the relevant laws. Another example, just how should we determine the employment income, that is, income from employment relations? This is something that is not clear even now.
After talking about the idea of certainty, a good tax regime should actually be equitable. Of course, many Honourable colleagues have talked about what is the so-call equity. But they have not explained what is meant by equitable. Does it mean that a payment of one dollar per head is called equitable? Or is it called equitable when a group of people are required to pay at the same tax rate? 2974 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Or is it called equitable when persons or companies with a high income are required to pay tax at a higher rate? No one can explain these to me. About the concept of equity, I think I can cite two examples. Just now an Honourable colleague has said that large companies should pay tax at a higher rate. But on the contrary, I do not think we need to do so. It is because when companies that make a smaller income or smaller profit can pay tax at a lower rate, does it mean that there is a profits tax rate applicable to SMEs? Secretary, I would suggest that this rate should be set at 10%. Is this possible?
Another example about inequity is a point which I wish to talk about on behalf of Dr LAM Tai-fai with respect to section 39E of the Inland Revenue Ordinance, that is, on the question of depreciation for capital outlay such as renting machinery and industrial installations which are not granted any tax rebate. This is a headache for many industrialists and even bankers. They cannot do any business because of this provision. Actually, Dr LAM Tai-fai has raised this issue in the Council for more than 10 times. In fact, section 39E affects Hong Kong industrialists who make investments on the Mainland because they cannot get any concession from depreciation. There is also a very serious problem which I think the Secretary is aware of it too, that is, section 39E affects many banks and finance companies which engage in financing projects in Hong Kong regarding aeroplanes and ships. Ever since section 39E came into force, there has been a sharp fall in such transactions. Since the Chief Executive wants to turn Hong Kong into a shipping centre and a centre for aeroplane repairs and maintenance, I hope the Secretary can urge the relevant authorities to review section 39E to see whether it should be amended.
The third point about the tax regime is to encourage some correct social and economic behaviour. But this feature is not found in our tax regime. For example, when some companies purchase some environmentally-friendly installations or spend money on holding training and engaging in research, what can be deducted is the actual sum used. We hope that the Government can look into the possibility of introducing some significant rebate. For example, after spending money on green installations or training up the employees, can there be a rebate of 150% or 200%? Or why must the rebate for donations to charitable organizations be restricted to a certain percentage of the income of an individual or a company? If this proposal should be realized will the Government have to waste a lot of money or collect much less tax? No, not at all.
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On the motion today, many Members say that taxes should be reduced. On the other hand, there are also Members who say that taxes should be increased and new taxes introduced. In proposing my amendment, actually I only hope that with respect to the tax regime, the Government (The buzzer sounded) …
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, speaking time is up.
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): … can go in the right direction.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): Deputy President, at this time every year when the year is about to end, we have to prepare the money to pay the tax. If we walk on the streets and no matter if we are in Central, Wan Chai or Mong Kok, we will see many advertisements by the banks on tax loans. I have also heard many people from the middle class grumble that it is time to pay tax again. And when this is added to the Chinese New Year which is about to come soon afterwards, the pressure on these people is indeed great. For many people, paying tax is an annoyance. This applies especially to the middle-class people because they have to pay lots of tax but they can only enjoy very few benefits. The amount of tax they pay may be equal to a whole month's salary. This is a very heavy burden indeed.
Deputy President, we know that tax revenue serves enormous functions. First, it pays for public spending like roads and bridges, infrastructure development, health, education, and so on. Such things can only be done by the Government. And though the Government has done such work, the pace has to be expedited. Second, it achieves redistribution in society and assists the disadvantaged so that people with capabilities can help those leading a most miserable life, hence helping build a benevolent and harmonious society. Third, it promotes investments such as by assisting emerging industries. Fourth, it prohibits undesirable behaviour. Taxes collected can change a decision of the citizens. Then paying taxes also manifests the people's duty and responsibility to society.
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Different kinds of tax serve different functions. Suppose the proposal in the original motion on reducing taxes across the board is adopted, then all kinds of tax should be reduced. This does not only apply to profits tax and salaries tax but also vehicle first registration duty, tobacco and alcohol duties, betting duty, and all taxes related to environmental protection and health should be reduced as well. This applies even to the stamp duty which has been discussed in this Council for a long time, that is, the so-called "curbs" duty which Mr Abraham SHEK always talks about. All these taxes should be reduced. However, we all know that this move will simply not work.
In addition, government expenditure is becoming greater and greater and there is a need to back it up with a stable and recurrent income. This is the reason why we always think that we should develop our economy so that the pie can be made bigger and all trades can prosper. This will result in greater revenue for the Government and the greater tax revenue can be used to improve the life of the people and help the disadvantaged. Since recurrent income is so very important, we should not change it rashly. In comparison, tax concessions may be a more suitable and flexible method and people with a heavier financial burden can be singled out for assistance.
The middle class plays a pivotal role in keeping our society stable and promoting upward social mobility. But the middle-class population in Hong Kong only takes up about 30% of the total population, and in recent years there has even been a trend degentrification. The middle-class people pay a lot of tax but they enjoy few welfare benefits. They have been working hard silently, seldom airing their grievances. But recently more of them are coming out to voice their views. They say that they bear a heavy burden and hope that the Government can introduce more tax concessions to help them. Now if a wage earner makes $22,000 a month, he has to pay salaries tax at a rate of 17% which is the highest rate. Every year he has to pay more than $10,000 in tax. Given this amount of income, even the persons concerned do not think that they belong to the middle class. But they are nevertheless barred from enjoying welfare benefits. They are denied the chance of applying for public housing. They cannot even apply for the Home Ownership Scheme flats. Their children have to pay for books, stationery, transport, school uniforms, and so on. All these are not cheap at all. Some of these people have to support their parents, save up for retirement, and so on. Hence they bear great pressure. I think therefore that tax allowances in education, healthcare, housing and children should all be increased in order to alleviate their burden.
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There is free and compulsory education in Hong Kong. But people have to pay for university and postsecondary school education. If students come from families which are not so well-off, they may apply for grant and loans. However, since many middle-class people may have saved up some money for retirement, this may bar them from applying for grant and loans. The tuition fees for one year add up to some $40,000 and the amount is even greater for those who enrolled in self-financed programmes. So the Government should increase the allowance for child education to ease the financial burden of the middle-class people.
In terms of healthcare, the public hospital service in Hong Kong is so good that it makes everyone flock to public hospitals. They queue up and wait for their turn to consult the doctor, and they have to wait for ages before it is their turn. If more people take out medical insurance, then there will be more people going to the private hospitals for medical consultation. This can ease the pressure on the public hospitals, and the waiting time for patients can be shortened. As patients should seek early medical advice, we hope that patients can all get treatment as appropriate and can lead a healthy life. However, we know that medical insurance premium is expensive and the premium of a medical insurance policy covering the entire family is likely to cost $10,000 to $20,000 a year.
All through these years we have been urging the Government to introduce a tax allowance for medical insurance. When the middle-class people take out medical insurance, they are reducing their reliance on government help, shouldering the healthcare responsibility themselves. The Government should encourage them by reducing the taxes. In fact, putting this into practice would not be too complicated. It can also be seen as giving an impetus to voluntary healthcare insurance. The Government should therefore not hesitate.
In housing, now taxpayers can have a deduction on the mortgage loan interest. But those who cannot afford buying properties and who have to rent a flat cannot enjoy this benefit. I therefore hope that the Government can introduce a housing allowance so that those who rent their homes can also enjoy it. This allowance can serve to offset the rent and ease the financial burden of the middle class. This kind of tax concession is in fact found in many countries.
Deputy President, it is never easy to raise up children because parents have to pay for their schooling and they have to spend money on a lot of things. A former survey done by the Family Planning Association shows that many women 2978 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 in Hong Kong want to give birth to more children. But the fact is 40% of those interviewed have a number of children smaller than the number of children they want. The main reason for this is the heavy financial pressure involved. Therefore, they do not dare to give birth to children even though they may want to. At present, the allowance for each child is $70,000 and when this is worked out with the highest rate of 17% in the salaries tax, this is merely a saving of $12,000. This cannot be said to be an incentive at all when compared with the expenses on raising a child. Since we want to encourage people to give birth to more children because we face the problem of population ageing, I would suggest that the children's allowance be raised. This can encourage middle-class families to give birth to more children. I am sure when we have children who are born and raised up in Hong Kong, they will make Hong Kong their home and will become an important engine of growth in our society. The Government may collect $20,000 to $30,000 less tax from each family now, but when these children have completed their studies and grown up to be adults, they can pay society back in thousands or tens of thousand times.
The other one is dependant parents' allowance. We can see that when people get older, they will have more illnesses. Some of them may even have to be housed in homes for the elderly. This costs a large sum of money. The Government has a policy of ageing at home. What the Government can do is to raise the dependant parents' allowance and for households with elderly persons, the taxpayers can be given a greater allowance.
Deputy President, those single and unmarried middle-class people may not have too much financial pressure. If some tax allowances are reduced, they may have more money to dine outside or buy a new mobile phone. This is actually beneficial to society because it can propel the growth of the economy or the local community economy. But for those middle-class families which have to support their parents and children, they are under very heavy financial pressure. They will be relieved if they can sense the support from the Government when they are to pay tax because of the tax concessions they can enjoy. I therefore think that if different kinds of allowances or rebates can be offered to the middle-class people to ease their financial pressure and enable them to have more savings and money to sip a cup of coffee or watch a French movie, I would think that this is really the dream of these middle-class people.
Deputy President, I so submit.
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MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, that the tax base in Hong Kong is too narrow is nothing new. During the British rule, the then Financial Secretary Piers JACOBS once proposed during his term of office that a wholesale tax be introduced in order to widen the tax base. But the idea was abandoned because of a lack of support. In 2006, the Hong Kong Government published a paper on reform of the tax regime and an important change proposed was to introduce a commodity and service tax. But that was shelved due to strong opposition from the public. The main sources of public revenue in Hong Kong are land sales, salaries tax and profits tax. A simple tax regime with low tax rates is adopted to maintain government expenditure. Under this tax regime, the Treasury still manages to hold a large amount of surplus and this is mainly attributed to the steady growth in our economy in recent years.
Deputy President, a responsible government cannot be complacent about the present situation and it must be prepared for difficulties ahead. There has to be long-term planning and an attempt to keep expenditure within the limits of revenues. I will now try to analyse public revenue from the principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues. First, on land sales. In this financial year, for example, the estimated income from land sales is $69 billion. But as at November, the income from land sales is only $37.2 billion. Recently, the Government has launched a number of measures aimed at cooling off the property market and curbing property prices. As a result, the developers will tend to be conservative in bidding for land and it is estimated that in future, the income from land sales will decrease. The other item is income from salaries tax. With population ageing and more people reaching the retirement age and new entrants to the job market from the young people unable to fill the vacancies, the labour force will not be able to meet the needs, if there is no plan to increase the importation of foreign workers. It is estimated that in future the revenue from salaries tax would not be able to grow at a satisfactory pace. Lastly, on profits tax. Ever since 1979 when the Mainland began its reform and opening up, its economic development has been spectacular. As Hong Kong is placed right at the southern doorsteps of China, and coupled with the factor of the reunification, there are direct gains for Hong Kong. Moreover, the political situation in Hong Kong is stable, the legal system is sound and as business opportunities abound, local, foreign and Mainland investors therefore are willing to make investments in Hong Kong. As a result, tax revenue grows. But good times will not last forever and in recent years, Hong Kong has been engulfed in endless disputes and internal attrition. There are even people who propose to occupy Central. Hence the investment sentiments have deteriorated. On the 2980 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 contrary, there is robust economic development on the Mainland and its financial system is growing sounder than before. In many major and large cities, people can find business opportunities. Recently, places like Qian Hai and Shanghai are made testing points for financial reforms of various kinds. Certain investors in Hong Kong will naturally increase their investments on the Mainland. This will certainly affect our revenue from profits tax.
Regarding recurrent expenditure, the estimate for the year 2013-2014 is $291.3 billion. Of this the expenditure on infrastructure project is as much as $70 billion. With the commencement of many major infrastructure projects, plus the constant rise in construction costs, it can be envisaged that in the next few years, the expenditure on infrastructure projects will only increase. As at the end of March this year, the amount of unpaid commitment for these infrastructure projects is more than $300 billion, which is about one half of the fiscal reserves. This is something we ought to pay attention to. In addition, with the proportion of elderly persons in our population rising, our spending on healthcare, social welfare, and so on, will rise drastically. According to government estimates, the population of elderly persons aged 65 or above will grow from 900 000 now to 2.1 million by the year 2030. If we work out projections from this proportion, we can see that the expenditure on "fruit grant" alone will soar to $32 billion. And we have not yet counted other expenditure items related to population ageing. We can predict that the pressure we feel in all kinds of public expenditure in Hong Kong will be very heavy.
Last week, the Government announced that our economic growth for the third quarter was 2.9%, and this is the first time in six quarters that growth has slowed down. As a result, the Government was obliged to revise the forecast on annual economic growth from 3.5% to 3%. This shows that given the global economic uncertainties, problems are beginning to emerge and the alarm has sounded. The economic slowdown will lead to instability in public revenues and given the ever-increasing expenditure, it is likely that the Government may have to face an imbalance in income and expenditure and the resurgence of a deficit. Therefore, the Government is duty-bound to prepare for the rainy days ahead and to take positive steps to study a tax reform and explore the possibilities of widening the tax base, in order to meet the challenges ahead.
Deputy President, as we face the problems of population ageing and insufficiency of healthcare services, I have the following suggestions to make on tax concession measures. People used to say, "It is rare for a person to reach the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2981 age of 70." Therefore, people who have reached 60 are regarded as old people and they are to retire from work. They will turn from contributors of government welfare to recipients. With advances in medicine and health information, most old people are physically and mentally very healthy. According to statistics, the average life expectancy of women in Hong Kong in 2011 was 86.7 years, while the average life expectancy of men in Hong Kong was 80.5 years. Hong Kong is the place in the world where the people can expect the longest life. It is estimated that by 2041, the average life expectancy of women in Hong Kong will be 90.8 years while that of men will be 84.4 years. Therefore, as seen from the health condition of people who are to retire now at the age of 60, they are perfectly able to serve the community for another five years. It is also mentioned in the consultation paper released by the Government on population policy that the workforce in that age bracket of elderly persons is less than 40%, which is 20% less than that of Singapore. Mrs Carrie LAM, the Chief Secretary for Administration, also considers that studies should be done on measures inducing retirees to re-enter the labour market. The Civil Service Bureau is now taking the lead to study the issue of extending the retirement age.
I would suggest that the Government, apart from taking the lead to defer the retirement age of civil servants, should also resort to tax concessions and provide incentives to encourage companies to hire people aged over 60. On the surface, the offer of tax concessions will lead to a fall in tax revenue. But given the present situation of a low unemployment rate, when elderly persons can make use of their rich experience and skills to go on creating wealth for society, this will not only increase revenue from salaries tax but also reduce reliance on public resources. It will also reduce the burden of the young people in supporting these elderly persons. Hence it will bring about many advantages like being beneficial to family harmony and promoting consumption.
Deputy President, at the end of last month the Government announced that a consultation exercise on voluntary medical insurance will commence at the end of this year. The proposals made include the introduction of tax concessions to encourage people from the middle class to switch to using private-sector healthcare services by taking out voluntary medical insurance. I agree with the concept in principle and I hope that the Government can extend the scope of tax concessions to include persons and companies which have already taken out commercial medical insurance.
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There are many companies which in their attempt to retain their staff have offered medical insurance coverage to their staff. And there are many wage earners who in their wish to obtain greater protection have taken out medical insurance for themselves, too. Such kind of action should be encouraged. In places like the United States, Australia and Taiwan, tax rebate for medical insurance has long been adopted. The Government of the last term had also held consultation on healthcare reform. A similar suggestion on tax concession was also made, but it was left aside because no consensus on it was reached. In my opinion, the Government should not stop the consultation in this regard because of the setback. For if not, it will only lose the meaning of universal healthcare protection. This is unfair to those wage earners and companies which have taken out healthcare insurance. If the Government is determined to solve the problem of universal healthcare insurance, a serious review of a combination of the existing and future medical insurance policies should be undertaken. With tax concessions introduced, it is hoped that both wage earners and their employers will have different options to choose from and more individuals and companies will join such schemes on a voluntary basis in order to reduce the pressure on public healthcare resources.
Deputy President, for many years the Government has adopted a non-intervention policy and adjustments are left to market forces. As a result, the protection afforded to the disadvantaged groups remains inadequate, thereby intensifying social conflicts. In the face of challenges posed by population ageing, the Government is obliged to undertake a review of the existing tax regime and reduce certain tax items as appropriate in order to show support for the disadvantaged, hence preventing the wealth gap problem from worsening.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I am very grateful to Mr Paul TSE for proposing the motion on "Reducing taxes across the board" to enable this Council to conduct a comprehensive discussion on this subject.
Deputy President, a report was published by the Hong Kong Council of Social Service (HKCSS) in August this year before the poverty line was set in Hong Kong. Based on the previous statistical method adopted by the HKCSS, the poverty population of Hong Kong had increased by 10 000 in just one year, from 1 151 000 in 2011 to 1 161 000 in 2012, with the elderly and the working poor facing worsening poverty. Despite the growth in the poverty population in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2983
Hong Kong, there was an increase in Hong Kong's per capita income and median income during the same period. Though it seems very odd that the poverty population has continued to grow in Hong Kong despite our socio-economic development, this is exactly how we feel in our daily life. Despite the fall in the number of households of working poor from 200 000 in 2010 to 185 000 in 2011 since the minimum wage took effect in 2011, the figure bounced back to 191 000 in 2012. The HKCSS believes that this has something to do with the diminishing effect of the minimum wage. In other words, we cannot rely on the current minimum wage level alone to pull the grass-roots people out of poverty.
The report compiled by the HKCSS has only demonstrated the feeling shared by the public by way of specific figures. We say that market force enables social resources to be distributed for the first time. In Hong Kong, where the banner of capitalism is hoisted high, various strata should be benefited. But obviously, the fragmented or piecemeal poverty alleviation measures adopted over the years have failed to yield satisfactory results, because the Government is reluctant to tackle the problem at the policy level. Nor is it willing to formulate long-term planning for the grassroots at various levels and acknowledge the gravity of a high degree of monopolization in Hong Kong. Not only has the mechanism of resource distribution in the free market failed, the economic leverage has also become imbalanced. Meanwhile, the trickle-down effect achieved "when Hong Kong succeeds, everyone will succeed too", as the Government has frequently advocated, has failed as well. Since the channel through which the grassroots can move upward has already been blocked, there is no way for the poor to improve their lot.
The Government has always maintained that Hong Kong is an open economy, and so external influences can easily lead to financial volatility. Certainly, I agree that a stable and robust government must guard against the onslaught of crises, so financial prudence is understandable. However, this does not mean that the Government should tighten its social input altogether and refrain from making some long-term policy planning and investments. Certainly, the Government will refute that there has been a constant increase in total expenditure on various social services in recent years. On social welfare expenditure, for instance, recurrent public expenditure under the Government's social welfare policy breakdown has seen a considerable increase, from $29.6 billion in 2001 to $50 billion this year. Similar expenditure on housing, for instance, also increased from $12.6 billion or so in 2001 to $55.7 billion this year.
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Unfortunately, most of these so-called increases are actually attributed to the one-off handout measures adopted over the years. Increases in recurrent expenditure are actually limited and far less than those in non-recurrent and operating expenditure items. An academic study has already pointed out that the crux of the government expenditure problem has nothing to do with the Government's failure to increase expenditure, but with its injection of a substantial amount of public money into one-off handout measures which are not only ineffective but also fragmented. However, the implementation of long-term livelihood measures is stuck in a quagmire. In fact, some academics have already proposed such solutions as the establishment of a financial stabilization fund, and so on, to tackle this problem of extremely high non-recurrent income, but the Government has never addressed it squarely or responded to it. It merely clings to the attitude of taking every day as if it is the last day of operation.
Deputy President, when it comes to elderly poverty, we have to talk about the ageing population. In fact, the issue of ageing population is not tantamount to the issue of elderly population. In Hong Kong, nearly 2 million elderly people are facing problems with protection for their living, healthcare, housing, and so on. Not only should society make a lot of efforts in conceiving how these problems can be solved, but preparations should have been made a long time ago. There has been a very long delay. The pressure exerted on society by the ageing population, a result of a large elderly population, cannot be eased merely by the birth of more children. The most radical solution to this problem is the establishment of a sound social security system while enabling all members of society to share the fruits of economic growth, so that a basic standard of living is generally maintained in society.
The universal retirement protection proposal put forward by the Coalition for Old Age Retirement Protection is based on a "tripartite-contribution" model evaluated and projected by actuaries. I hope the Government will not dismiss it lightly by merely citing certain cases of unsatisfactory retirement protection proposals implemented in European and American countries, because each country or region has its unique characteristics. The Government might as well advance its justifications, if any, to debate with the community.
Deputy President, we are aware that Hong Kong still faces many urgent problems. In the area of social welfare alone, there are problems related to elderly healthcare, community mental health services, employment training for young people, exceedingly low rates of Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) payments, and so on. Coupled with Hong Kong's LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2985 anticipated labour shortage, resources must be allocated to training and expanding the employment opportunities for the grassroots. Certainly, the proposal of reducing taxes across the board put forward by a colleague today can ease the immediate burden of living of the middle class, but it is still a shortsighted measure. Actually, a main function of tax revenue is to enable wealth distribution for a second time in society, but the key lies in the element of fairness. At present, the level of profits tax in Hong Kong is set at around 16.5%, which is extremely low by international standards. As a result, Hong Kong is regarded as a low-tax paradise. Besides, Hong Kong's tax regime is not progressive, which means that a "wage earner" with an annual income of tens of million dollars pay the same standard rate of up to 15% as a taxi driver working 10 hours every day. On the other hand, no capital gains tax is levied on income from stock and real estate speculation. The tax regime in Hong Kong is grossly unfair.
The Labour Party holds that, instead of reducing taxes, the Government had better revise the aforesaid unfair practices and discharge its responsibility of wealth redistribution under the principle of "earning more, paying more". It should also rationalize the relationship between non-recurrent revenue and recurrent revenue, so that the hard-earned money of Hong Kong people can be put to optimal use to further promote social investment and the development of public services, with a view to achieving the objective of returning wealth to the people. Furthermore, it should introduce a tax on dividend income of significant amount and, as proposed by the Labour Party, stipulate that the first $250,000 of the dividend income is tax free while the exceeded amount must be counted as assessable income or profit, so that the principle of "earning more, paying more" can be manifested. This can also enable Hong Kong's tax regime to really achieve effective wealth redistribution for a second time, thereby fostering fairness in society. Based on the present estimate that the dividend income from stocks traded on the Main Board is around $10 billion per annum, and if one tenth of such income is regarded as income of significant amount for tax payment purposes, then the Government will reap an additional $10 billion or so per annum in tax revenue. Furthermore, the level of prepaid tax in Hong Kong, which is set at 75% of the tax amount payable in the previous year, is too high and affects the living of a considerable number of taxpayers. Hence, we propose that the level of prepaid tax for people earning an annual income below $500,000 be lowered to 25% of the tax amount payable in the previous year, so that the burden of the grassroots can be alleviated.
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Deputy President, the huge poverty population in Hong Kong has continued to grow over the past two decades and become a social or even global concern in recent years. Mother Teresa once said, "Today it is fashionable to talk about the poor. Unfortunately it is not fashionable to talk with them." I urge the Government to put itself in the people's shoes to understand their sentiments, establish a universal retirement protection system and promote long-term planning for housing, education, healthcare, social welfare, and so on.
Thank you, Deputy President.
MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I am very grateful to Mr Paul TSE for proposing this motion today to enable us to debate issues pertaining to tax concessions. Nevertheless, we cannot support the proposal of "reducing taxes across the board" put forward in the original motion because Hong Kong's tax rates are already relatively low. Although the former Chief Executive, Donald TSANG, expressed regret before his departure about the failure to fulfil his electoral promise of reducing the rates of profits tax, we do not support doing so, and hence we do not support reducing taxes across the board. But still I have proposed several amendments to the original motion, including increasing the personal allowance for salaries tax and the married person's allowance respectively by 10%. Since Hong Kong's cumulative inflation rate in the past two years was around 8.8%, increasing the personal allowance for salaries tax and the married person's allowance is meant to catch up with inflation only.
Furthermore, in order to address the heavy tax burden of the middle class, as mentioned by Mr Jeffrey LAM just now, we consider that the first three amounts of the net chargeable income under salaries tax be increased, with each tax band widened from $40,000 to $50,000, and the standard rate for salaries tax be abolished, so that all members of the public eventually pay their salaries tax according to the marginal tax rate of 17%. Simply put, the tax burden of high-income earners should be increased slightly. The Democratic Party will support our proposed tax concession scheme, too.
In addition to our reservations about the proposal put forward by Mr WONG Ting-kwong to lower the marginal rate, we also hope that the child allowance can be increased because, as some Members mentioned just now, it has become increasing expensive to raise a child. Hence, we hope that the child LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2987 allowance can be increased to $100,000. Besides, although the Government has introduced tax deduction for mortgage instalments, purchasing a flat is now beyond the reach of many young people. We therefore propose the introduction of a $100,000 tax deduction for residential rentals, which should be regarded as a tax concession as well. Furthermore, we think that the Government should examine and consider encouraging the public to participate in voluntary retirement savings schemes and offer tax concessions to persons who opt for voluntary savings. Similar to the current approach of the Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF) System, participants of these voluntary retirement savings schemes can only withdraw their contributions upon reaching their retirement age of 65. In our opinion, the Government should consider encouraging this type of voluntary contribution, subject to a ceiling of $20,000. We also hope that the Government can consider introducing "persons with disabilities allowance" to offer tax concessions to people with disabilities who have a job. The number of persons involved is actually very small because not many people with disabilities have a job. Since there is currently a personal allowance for people with a job, we propose that an allowance be introduced to people with disabilities because they have no additional allowances but, on the contrary, there is a tax allowance for their carers. We hope that the Government can give this consideration and propose in the budget next year some concessionary initiatives for these proposals of introducing new allowances.
With regard to the several other amendments, the specific proposal put forward by Miss CHAN Yuen-han to introduce new taxes such as capital gains tax is very controversial. In fact, over the past many years, Hong Kong has gradually reduced the number of taxes with the capital gains tax element. Neither is dividends tax nor property gains tax levied in Hong Kong. The capital gains tax, if introduced, will actually constitute a drawback in Hong Kong's simple tax regime. Moreover, many exemptions have to be offered concurrently because most people in Hong Kong have a unit for self-occupation. Since it is unreasonable to levy tax for reason of appreciation of the unit, we have reservations about the introduction of a capital gains tax.
With regard to the proposal put forward by Mr Frederick FUNG to introduce progressive profits tax, we support it in principle but the Democratic Party considers that there is still some room for thoughts. While the Government can consider slightly reducing the rate of profits tax by 0.5%, for instance, for a profit of around $100 million to alleviate the tax burden of small and medium enterprises (SMEs), we do not consider it necessary to reduce profits 2988 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 tax across the board. Nevertheless, should SMEs be given some little room? There have been debates on this topic, but the Government has refused to divide profits tax into two tiers. In our opinion, the Government may consider maintaining the profits rate for large enterprises at the standard rate or 16.5%, and lowering by 0.5% the tax rate for SMEs with a smaller profit of below $100 million.
We support Mr Kenneth LEUNG's amendment which purely calls on the Government to review the Inland Revenue Ordinance to make the tax regime of Hong Kong fairer.
Actually, the several tax concession proposals put forward in Mr Jeffrey LAM's amendment have been mentioned by me before. On education, for instance, we consider it simpler to merge the child allowance with the tax allowance for education. Hence, we propose that the child allowance be increased to $100,000, because this is particularly helpful to the middle class. Honestly, the burden of many middle-class people, especially those with better conditions, is very heavy because they no longer use the public healthcare system and, what is more, they have to send their children abroad for education. Should the Government consider offering tax concessions to these people?
With regard to Mr Jeffrey LAM's proposed tax allowances for healthcare, although it has not been mentioned by us today, we agree that consideration should be given to offering a tax allowance or concession to people who have purchased medical insurance. As for the introduction of a tax allowance for dependent children, I have already expressed my view on this proposal earlier.
The amendment proposed by Mr YIU Si-wing has merely mentioned some general measures. Although he said that Hong Kong is encountering the problems of population ageing and progressive increase in public expenditure and suggested that the Government should initiate studies on improving the tax regime, no specific proposals have been put forward. But still, we support his principle.
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
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As regards the proposal put forward by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che in his amendment to introduce a tax on dividend income of significant amount, stipulating that the first $250,000 of the dividend income is tax free, we actually have reservations about it. If 4% is taken as the basis for calculation, $250,000 involves only $6 million or so. Some people who have a flat for self-occupation might purchase another flat for collection of rental income. Although the flat purchased might cost $6 million or $7 million, they are not required to pay any tax. According to Mr CHEUNG's proposal, however, a person who has $6 million or $7 million worth of stocks for collecting interest income for retirement purposes will be required to pay tax. The Government must consider whether or not it is fair to do so. Many middle-class people rely on dividend income derived from $6 million or $7 million worth of stocks for retirement, so that they will not need to count on the Government. Should the Government levy tax on them? We must understand that, insofar as dividend income is concerned, the companies concerned have already paid profits tax for their gains. Imposing a further tax on dividend income is tantamount to double taxation. We must consider this point, that is, this approach is not worthy of support. Therefore, we have reservations about this proposal, and I have already explained our justifications in detail.
As regards Mr WONG Ting-kwong's amendment, we still have some reservations about the lowering of the marginal rate.
The Democratic Party supports Mr Ronny TONG's proposed amendment to "increase recurrent expenditure to address livelihood problems". In fact, the Government still has abundant surpluses in the coffers. As of end-September this year, the Government had an accumulated surplus of $625 billion and fiscal reserves of $680 billion. Adding to this a total surplus of $1,300 billion in the coffers (discounting the Government's other assets), there is indeed room for ameliorating our livelihood problems. Actually, quite a number of studies clearly show that Hong Kong is on the verge of "explosion", particularly with regard to healthcare problems, because it is under enormous pressure in this aspect. Even the proposed increase by Donald TSANG in expenditure on healthcare from 15% to 17% was insufficient. A study conducted by a former Executive Council Member, also a member of the pro-establishment camp, shows that nine additional hospitals have to be built in Hong Kong in the future. Obviously, Hong Kong has to face tremendous pressure in healthcare demands as a result of the ageing population. In fact, years ago the International Monetary Fund (IMF) once sent personnel here to study the low-tax regime in Hong Kong and found that one of the greatest risks to be faced by the territory is the pressure 2990 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 from demands for welfare and healthcare by the ageing population. At this stage, we should provide against the rainy day and guard against the explosion of healthcare demands, with a view to preventing Hong Kong from reverting to the era when the entire complex of Queen Elizabeth Hospital or other hospitals was filled with canvass beds. To address livelihood problems at this stage, the authorities should build several additional hospitals.
These are the proposals put forward by the Democratic Party.
MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): President, the Government was once troubled by a structural fiscal deficit due to the severe blows dealt by the financial turmoil and SARS to Hong Kong economy. Nonetheless, following the rapid rebound of the economy in 2004, the fiscal deficit was successfully eliminated by the SAR Government in 2005-2006. Subsequently, the Government's fiscal condition has remained generally satisfactory. According to the computations of Financial Secretary John TSANG during his term of office, as of end-March next year, the Government's total accumulated fiscal surplus is expected to exceed $200 billion.
Despite its abundant fiscal surplus and considerable reserves in the past couple of years, as well as its numerous cash handout measures, the Government has still not gained the support and commendation of the vast majority of members of the community. Why? In our opinion, its unduly conservative approach to fiscal management over the past many years is to be blamed. The most prominent problem is that the Government has continued to underestimate its revenue, thus leading to inadequate allocation of funds to the public sector. Although abundant fiscal reserves can thus be accumulated year after year, there are long-standing social problems. Social conflicts have become increasingly acute precisely due to the improper distribution of resources. With the allocation of inadequate resources, the disparity between the rich and the poor has continued to worsen.
To address the wealth gap problem, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) considers that the Government should proactively review whether some appropriate methods should be formulated to release part of the fiscal reserves to enhance education, healthcare, the social security net and the retirement protection system in Hong Kong, as well as increasing opportunities for upward social mobility, alleviating the burden of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2991 disadvantaged groups and the middle class in their daily life, and fostering a harmony society capable of sustainable development.
Nonetheless, President, we have reservations about the proposal put forward in today's original motion on "reducing taxes across the board" on the grounds that the Government should reduce taxes across the board because it is rich, regardless of whether or not the objective of doing so is to alleviate the financial burden of the middle-class households, or there are some other considerations. I must emphasize that the majority of people of the socially disadvantaged groups, who are badly in need of government assistance, do not need to pay taxes, particularly such direct taxes as salaries tax. Hence, even if taxes are reduced across the board, the Government can still not help address the needs of the lower class, and achieve the objective of redistributing wealth and effectively alleviating the wealth gap problem in society.
Meanwhile, although the Government is in a healthy financial position, with its fiscal reserves expected to exceed $700 billion and the accumulated surplus of the Exchange Fund to reach $600 billion by the end of next year, the scope involved is very board if taxes are reduced across the board for, in addition to direct taxes, indirect taxes are involved as well. In view of the DAB's disapproval of the reduction of such taxes as tobacco duty, betting duty and stamp duty, I have proposed an amendment to the motion.
Since various strata of society have been affected in varying degrees by the persistently high inflation and a surge in goods and property prices, we propose that, in the budget in the next financial year, the Government introduce one-off relief measures, reduce salaries tax, profits tax and rates while adjusting the salaries tax regime, including widening the tax bands for salaries tax, lowering the marginal rate and increasing the salaries tax allowances, so as to alleviate the financial burden of the public and SMEs in Hong Kong.
We also propose that the flexibility of salaries tax allowances be enhanced by, among other things, allowing parents with more than one child to claim allowances for their children separately. We also hope that the Government can actively consider allowing children of elderly participants of the "Guangdong Scheme" to claim dependent parent or grandparent allowance though they are not living together. Meanwhile, siblings should be allowed to share dependent parent or grandparent allowance. I believe the relevant proposal will gain support from the general public.
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On the other hand, the DAB also proposes the provision of tax deduction for children education. Furthermore, the Government may consider introducing tax deductions for residential rentals, voluntary MPF contributions and private medical insurance contributions.
The DAB must emphasize that we consider it inadequate for the Government to merely lower salaries tax and introduce a series of one-off relief measures in next year's budget. We would like to stress that, despite the Government's possession of abundant fiscal reserves at present, it must not reduce taxes across the board arbitrarily without conducting a detail review of the tax regime. It is not proper for the Member to put forth the proposal on "reducing taxes across the board" indiscreetly for the sake of winning applauses from the public.
President, we cannot support Miss CHAN Yuen-han's proposed amendment because it does not propose to delete the proposal of "expeditiously reducing taxes across the board" from the original motion. Furthermore, we have reservations about her position of introducing capital gains tax for fear that Hong Kong's simple tax regime will thus be affected. Eventually, the losses might even outweigh the gains.
As for the proposal put forward by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che in his amendment to introduce a tax on dividend income, we must point out that the levy of such a tax will lead to double taxation because dividends are actually after-tax profits received by shareholders, and profits tax has already been levied there on. If a tax on dividend income is levied in addition to profits tax, double taxation will be resulted. Hence, the Government will need to put in place a system to avoid double taxation. However, the relevant legislation is extremely complicated and not easy to enforce. Moreover, some companies might opt not to distribute dividends and thus be exempted from tax payment. The DAB will vote against this amendment.
As regards the proposal put forward by Mr SIN Chung-kai in his amendment to abolish the standard rate for salaries tax, the DAB thinks that the community and the authorities concerned should examine this proposal with prudence because the burden of middle and high income earners will thus be increased indirectly, which is incompatible with the theme of this motion on LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2993
"reducing taxes across the board". The DAB has reservations about this amendment.
President, I so submit.
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, we were a bit shocked when we first saw Mr Paul TSE's motion because, from its wordings, his point of view appeared to be very pessimistic, or even showed a tendency towards laissez-faire, so to speak.
President, no politician or Legislative Council Member should adopt a "laissez-faire" attitude in monitoring the administration by the Government. Otherwise, he had better stop serving as a Legislative Council Member. Hence, we cannot support the original motion if the numerous amendments today are not passed.
Nonetheless, from a more liberal perspective, if today's motion is aimed at discussing the Government's philosophy and principle of financial management, is it worthy of our support? I think this issue merits in-depth discussion. A number of colleagues have proposed some relatively detailed amendments to point out that changes should be made to the tax regime. President, we do not consider the tax regime very problematic, but the emphasis should rather be placed on the performance of John TSANG over the past many years, especially during his tenure of office as Financial Secretary, and whether or not his philosophy of financial management is compatible with social requirements and justice, or has fulfilled the Government's responsibility. In my opinion, his performance is open to question.
Under the general framework, President, the first question we must ask is: Under the Basic Law, what is the basic requirement on our system? President, if you refer to Article 107 of the Basic Law, you will find that though it is quite vague, its basic requirement can still be traced. Article 107 provides that we have to keep expenditure within the limits of revenues, and strive to achieve a fiscal balance, avoid deficits and keep the budget commensurate with the growth rate of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). In other words, if our GDP is growing, our expenditure should also be increased correspondingly because there will be a corresponding increase in our revenues, too.
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However, President, if we simply start from a considerable gap between expenditure and revenues, and if this gap is not adjusted, then expenditure will never catch up with revenues. Hence, the Basic Law's requirement of striving to achieve a fiscal balance can never be met.
President, I did not mention avoiding deficits because fortunately, since the reunification, we have seen our economy in deficit in only very few years, and it was very short-lived, too. Moreover, it was caused by external influences. Hence, although we think that the Government needs to address this issue of avoiding deficit more carefully, generally speaking, there is no need for us to feel excessively concerned.
President, Article 108 of the Basic Law provides that a low tax policy has to be adopted. President, Mr Paul TSE should not propose reducing taxes across the board just because it is stipulated in Article 108 that a low tax policy have to be adopted. Furthermore, I do not believe this was what Mr TSE meant. If we take a look at various places in Southeast Asia or other parts of Asia, we will find that the tax revenue in Hong Kong can be described as very low, but our demands might be greater than those in other places. Hong Kong is small in size but densely populated. Furthermore, poverty in society is acute and, in terms of the wealth gap by international standards, Hong Kong has been in the top spot in developed regions over the years. Hence, this demonstrates that we have some deep-rooted conflicts which need to be addressed.
Has the philosophy of financial management adopted by the SAR Government taken account of these outstanding problems of such great significance? President, the answer appears to be in the negative. Over the years, we have assisted the Government with its computations. On average, the amount of underestimated revenue ranges from $30 billion to $35 million per annum. President, this is only an average figure. In other words, the amount involved is quite substantial.
I would like to further point out that in the past two years, such as in 2012-2013, our consolidated surplus stood at $66.7 billion. As of today, I believe the consolidated surplus this year should have increased to $64.9 billion. Obviously, the average figure I mentioned just now will be adjusted upward because our revenues exceed expenditure. However, we must not overlook the fact that, if this computation method is adopted, a one-off relief measure will be introduced annually whenever the Government makes huge profits or has a large LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2995 surplus. For instance, $33 billion was handed out last year. When it comes to achieving a fiscal balance in that particular year, these one-off expenses can of course create a wrong impression that we are close to achieving a fiscal balance. However, this is just a wrong impression because the one-off measure can do little to help improve the social environment. We should consider whether or not our surplus and reserves should be put to the optimal use by undertaking long-term planning for and making progressive improvements to livelihood problems.
President, we can see that the Government can be described as having no policy or vision at all in financial management. What we can only see is more and more savings accumulated year on year. President, to date, our fiscal reserves have already reached $670 billion and, as a number of colleagues have mentioned, the Exchange Fund has exceeded $620 billion. Even if other assets are discounted, the two will add up to over $1,200 billion. Our fiscal reserves can enable the Government to meet its expenditure for 23 months. I wonder if there is any government which will need to spend a sum of money equivalent to 23 months of its expenditure with no revenue at all. President, this is absolutely inconceivable. Our reserves are equivalent to 36%, or one third, of our GDP. All these figures show that we are actually financially capable of improving the social environment, but the Government has not used the money and done anything after such a long delay. We simply cannot help ask this question: What is the raison d'être of the Government? Does the Government exist only to collect taxes to undertake infrastructure projects without taking any notice of whether or not Hong Kong people are living in dire straits? Is the Government only responsible for assisting people in making savings? When there is a surplus, the Government will only offer to return part of the funds in the coffers to members of the public, but does it mean that the Government has fulfilled its responsibility? President, I do not think so. In every society, the government should be responsible for making use of tax revenue to improve the community as a whole and the quality of life of the people. If our Government is unable to do so, Hong Kong people will be very disappointed.
President, I believe what I said just now is absolutely very simple and easily comprehensible philosophy of financial management. The financial philosophy currently upheld by the Government is completely going against its responsibility.
As regards the question of how we can use wealth to improve people's livelihood, President, there are a lot of things we can do, though the Government 2996 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 might not agree that every one of them has urgency and must be accorded priority. However, even if random examples are cited, we can still cite a lot of problems related to retirement protection, the rapidly ageing population, education, and so on. President, a couple of days ago, I pointed out here in the Chamber the phenomenon of deteriorating or even downward mobility in our society, which is in contrast to the widening disparity between the rich and the poor. How can mobility in society be enhanced? I think it is incumbent upon the Government to allocate more resources to quality education, so that the grassroots can have a chance to get ahead in society.
President, we are also aware of the healthcare problems. We need to improve the people's quality of life as well as addressing economic problems associated with the ageing population while tackling the housing problem as well. President, we need to address these major livelihood issues rather than racing from one scene to another to fight one fire and then to another. Should the Government act in this manner, it is completely lack of long-term planning and vision and only knows how to save up for Hong Kong people. President, this is not what a responsible government ought to do. Hence, I hope the SAR Government can solemnly review its existing philosophy of financial management. Thank you, President.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I would like to express my gratitude to Mr Paul TSE for the motion proposed by him, and to Ms CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che and Mr Ronny TONG for the amendments proposed.
The Government has launched the consultation exercise on the 2014 Policy Address and the Budget for the year 2014-2015. Discussions on this motion by the Legislative Council will encourage the public, during the consultation period, to actively offer advice and hold extensive discussions on the allocation of public resources in the future, thereby helping the Government to determine the priorities in public finances.
Before listening to Members' valuable views on this subject, I would like to elaborate the basic principles to which the Government will adhere in fiscal management and examining the recommendations for policy formulation. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 2997
Furthermore, I will explain the present allocation of resources and the planning for meeting foreseeable challenges.
The Government has always abided by the principle of prudent financial management. According to Article 107 of the Basic Law, the budget shall take into account the following three points: (a) keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues in drawing up its budget; (b) strive to achieve a fiscal balance and avoid deficits, and (c) keep the budget commensurate with the growth rate of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP).
According to Article 108 of the Basic Law, Hong Kong pursues a low tax policy. One of Hong Kong's competitive edges is a fair and efficient business environment, an important element of which is a tax regime which is fair, neutral and simple with low tax rates.
Under the fiscal management and fiscal discipline premised on the principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues, the SAR Government is committed to the expenditure that ought to be spent. From the year of 1997-1998 to 2013-2014, the Government spending has increased from nearly $200 billion to more than $400 billion, representing a one-fold increase whereas the increase of GDP in the same period was only 60%. In the policy areas, the expenditure on education, healthcare and social welfare accounted for about 60%. In comparison with 1997-1998, the expenditure on education and healthcare has increased by around 70% and 90% respectively, while the expenditure on social welfare has increased by 200%.
To meet future challenges and opportunities, we invest in infrastructure as a stimulus to economic growth, thereby improving employment opportunities and Hong Kong's long-term competitiveness. In 2013-2014, we expect that expenditure on capital works will reach $70 billion, representing a two-fold increase compared with that in 1997-1998. Currently, more than 700 projects are being undertaken and the coming few years will be the peak phase of construction works. At the end of March this year, we were committed to more than $300 billion payable for capital works, representing about half of the fiscal reserves.
The fiscal reserves are not inexhaustible and the economy cycle always has ups and downs. Apart from meeting the daily operational expenses, the fiscal 2998 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 reserves play a buffer role during an economic downturn. We must maintain fiscal discipline in order to meet future needs.
According to the data of the Census and Statistics Department, there is a continuous ageing trend in the population of Hong Kong. The proportion of those aged 65 and above is projected to increase from 13% in 2011 to 30% in 2041. The number of elderly people will reach 2.56 million. On the other hand, the proportion of people below the age of 15 will decrease from 12% in 2011 to 9% in 2041. The increase in the proportion of elderly people will be matched by shrinkage of the labour force, thereby dampening the momentum of economic growth. An ageing population and economic slowdown will undoubtedly impose pressure on government revenues and directly affect the long-term sustainability of public finances.
In planning for the future, the Financial Secretary in the Budget 2013-2014 announced the establishment of a working group under the leadership of the Permanent Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury (Treasury) comprising academics and experts in the relevant fields who will explore ways to make more comprehensive planning on public finances to cope with the ageing population and the Government's other long-term financial commitments. The working group will assess the long-term public expenditure needs and changes in government revenues under the existing policies, as well as proposing feasible measures with reference to overseas experience before submitting its report to the Financial Secretary.
President, just now I mentioned the challenges faced by public finances with the purpose of enabling Members to understand that it is unrealistic to demand improvement in services while calling for sweeping tax cuts. As a responsible Government, we fully appreciate the financial burden of the public and all quarters of the community. I am grateful to those Honourable Members who have proposed the motion and amendments in which a series of recommendations have been raised. I will give a further response after listening to the views of Members.
President, I so submit. Thank you.
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MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, since Hong Kong follows a policy of simple tax rates, its financial management system is relatively simple and clear. We in the business sector have no objection to a reasonable tax regime, but we often find that public funds derived from tax revenue are not put to good use after redistribution. The Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong (BPA) supports the Government using public funds to take care of the needy, but many of these initiatives can only provide temporary relief to alleviate the public's financial hardships. Instead of offering tax reduction, therefore, we think that the authorities should introduce a wide range of concessionary policies to take care of the grassroots and offer tax concessions to the middle class while using public funds to invest in the future for the purpose of promoting upward mobility in society and enhancing Hong Kong's competitive edge.
The BPA is concerned about the middle-class people, whose tax burden is the heaviest, because they face the crisis of dengentrification. Insofar as short-term initiatives are concerned, Mr Jeffrey LAM pointed out just now that the BPA had put forward various policy proposals to help the middle class. In the long run, however, we think that the Government should, as proposed by the Chief Executive in the policy address and mentioned by the Financial Secretary, set an ideal target to gauge the medium- and long-term development in, for instance, 10 years' time with the goal of doubling the size of the middle class from between 20% and 30% to 50% of Hong Kong's population.
The Government should make use of our financial reserves and policies to invest in the future. On education, in addition to continued promotion of diversified education, we propose that free vocational and educational training be provided free to skilled workers aged 40 or below so as to enable them to advance to the third level of the Qualifications Framework. People having reached this level means that they should have already acquired a professional skill, and they should have no problem in making a living. Moreover, they are already regarded as marginal middle class. In my opinion, their problems can only be resolved through these long-term investments, whereas the Government cannot assist them in moving upward by continuing to build public housing and offer assistance to the grassroots.
On investment in business ventures launched by young people, we propose that the Government should encourage more young people to turn their 3000 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 businesses into SMEs and then join the middle class. We hope the Government can allocate $2 billion to the construction of a "youth entrepreneurship park" and, together with all the existing organizations supporting the launch of businesses by young people, set up a platform for the masses to raise funds and draw on collective wisdom, so that young people can get together and succeed. Certainly, as I proposed more than a decade ago, the Government should provide tax concessions for the creative industries and scientific research by offering triple tax deduction as an incentive. Only in doing so can young people see their prospects and dedicate themselves to launching businesses. Most importantly, if the ratio of the middle-class people in Hong Kong can be raised to more than 50%, as in the United States and South Korea, I believe Hong Kong society will be a lot more peaceful.
Next, President, I would like to point out that SMEs account for more than 98% of all local enterprises. Given the prevailing uncertainties in the economy, in order to enable SMEs to have more ammunition to face competition and the persistently poor economic environment, I propose that the Government consider setting a lower tax rate, such as 10%, for SMEs with a profit of less than $3 million in order to encourage reinvestments. Furthermore, the Government should make reference to the personal assessment allowance for the introduction of an additional allowance for SMEs to enhance their competitive edge.
Certainly, I have mentioned section 39E of the Inland Revenue Ordinance to the Secretary many times before. This issue was also mentioned by a Member just now. In particular, SMEs which have factories built on the Mainland are in desperate need of the offer of tax concessions in Hong Kong. We have also asked the Secretary why section 39E cannot be reviewed, given the 50% concession now offered to captive insurance, as pointed out by the Secretary just now, and the previous tax concession offered to offshore funds. I think that the Government should give serious thoughts to this issue.
Meanwhile, any concession or abolition of taxes will not necessarily reduce the revenue of the coffers. On the contrary, it might bring Hong Kong new business opportunities and room for development. The red wine duty is a case in point, for Hong Kong is still the world's largest centre for the sales of red wine. On the other hand, the abolition of estate duty has also made Hong Kong Asia's asset management centre.
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With global industries moving toward environmentally-friendly and knowledge-based development, Hong Kong should develop more high value-added manufacturing industries. Regarding the industries mentioned just now, such as scientific research, we think that the Government should give them active consideration and, through adding design and high value-added elements to the products, create "cluster" effects and attract more young people to join the creative and scientific research industries.
The BPA believes that only through investing in the future can we assist the middle class in moving upward. The Secretary should know that Francis BACON, a renowned British philosopher, once said, "Money is like muck, not good except it be spread." Compared with the handout initiatives which can only offer short-term relief to the public, we think that there is a greater need for the Government to focus on the future, develop a diversified economy, improve education and manpower training policies, complement the development of Hong Kong's knowledge-based economy and give a boost to social mobility, in order to provide the middle class with opportunities of continued upward movement and enable the grass-roots people to climb up the social mobility ladder to join the middle class to make the latter even stronger. I hope the Government can stop behaving like a miser and proactively make investments in the future instead.
President, I so submit.
MR POON SIU-PING (in Cantonese): President, in the concluding remarks of the Budget this year, the Financial Secretary said that one of the keys to building an ideal society which values equality and justice for all, with dignity and respect for each individual, and care for the disadvantaged is to solve the core question of where to get the resources required. Over the past five years, the SAR Government has recorded a huge surplus in excess of $40 billion year after year and, as a result, an initiative was introduced to offer cash handouts to every member of the community. This shows that the SAR Government is not short of resources, and there are sufficient resources to build a better society.
The motion today seeks to call on the Government to reduce taxes across the board rather than offer cash handouts to all people. I disagree with the proposal of handing out cash to everyone because giving benefits to all people, be they rich or poor, is not a correct way to make effective use of resources and care for the disadvantaged. If taxes are reduced across the board, only taxpayers will 3002 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 be benefited. Moreover, the higher the tax amount, the greater the benefit. The grass-roots and disadvantaged people will not be benefited because they do not need to pay any tax. This approach of giving relief to the rich rather than the poor by distributing government resources in a reversed manner falls far short of achieving the objective of returning wealth to the people.
In the background information published annually in connection with the consultation on the budget, the Financial Secretary would point out that profits tax and salaries tax are the major source of the Government's operating receipts, and the volatility of such receipts will pose challenges to public finance management. Of the receipts from profits tax, only 11% of the registered companies in Hong Kong are required to pay profits tax, with the tax payable by less than 1% of these companies accounting for 60% of the Government's total profits tax revenue. When it comes to salaries tax, only 45% of the working population is required to pay salaries tax, with the salaries tax payable by 12% of these taxpayers accounting for more than 80% of the Government's salaries tax revenue. This reflects that the tax base in Hong Kong is narrow. Hence, if taxes are reduced across the board, the population of beneficiaries will be just as small.
I urge the Government to conduct a comprehensive review of our tax regime, whether it is for the sake of building a society which values equality and justice and cares for the disadvantaged, or addressing the challenges posed by the volatile revenues to public finance management.
The Federation of Hong Kong and Kowloon Labour Unions to which I belong has been calling on the Government to introduce a capital gains tax on profits from securities trading and assignment of property, just as the principle of levying tax on profits made by companies. Financial skills and property speculation are not only a means of accumulating capital, but also the main cause of the enormous gap between the rich and the poor.
President, besides introducing a capital gains tax, the Government can really achieve the objective of returning wealth to the people only by reviewing the tax base, manifesting the principle of "earning more, paying more", and setting up a fairer and more reasonable tax regime.
President, I so submit.
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MR CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, although Hong Kong has all along practised a simple and low tax regime, many taxpayers and middle-class people still find tax payment not at all easy and hope to have a chance to alleviate their tax burden and ease their pressure of living.
In particular, since the reunification, Hong Kong has weathered several financial turmoils, coupled with little effort made by the Government in promoting economic development, small and medium households has instead seen their income dropped.
Given that the Government has currently more than $700 billion in fiscal reserves, and unexpected surpluses will be achieved at any time, which is enough to meet its expenditure for 23 months, there is no reason for the Government not to come up with ways to alleviate the pressure of living on the public.
For these reasons, I greatly support Mr Jeffrey LAM who proposed in his amendment that the Government should strive to offer tax reductions to alleviate the financial burden of middle-class people in such areas as education, healthcare, housing and maintaining children.
However, I do not agree to the proposal put forward today by a Member to introduce a tax on dividend income. While I have absolutely no intention to protect the interest of large consortia, I am just giving comments on this proposal in the overall interest of Hong Kong.
Although the proposed tax on dividend income is subject to certain specific conditions, such as the first $250,000 of the dividend income is tax free, and apparently targeted at large consortia, we should not think that the grassroots will not be affected because quite a number of retirees rely on buying well-established blue-chip shares as long-term investments, and the dividend income is used to meet their living expenses upon retirement. Furthermore, quite a number of voluntary, public or charitable organizations, and even our MPF schemes, rely on dividend income to provide services and pay back to investors. A tax on dividend income, once levied, will definitely deal a serious blow to fund revenue. More often than not, the underprivileged who are badly in need of assistance from charity funds, as well as retirees, will suffer in the end. Will the levy of the dividend income duty not give people the impression of robbing the beggars and shatter the hopes of retirees to spend their twilight years happily?
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What is more, it is easier said than done in levying a tax on dividend income. On the contrary, listed companies can easily avoid paying tax by distributing bonus shares in lieu of dividend and then encashing the bonus shares.
As an international financial hub, Hong Kong must constantly take active steps to seek innovation and changes. As mentioned by the Financial Secretary in the Budget this year, Hong Kong has to develop as a premier international asset management centre and attract more private equity funds to domicile in Hong Kong. A tax on dividend income, if levied, will definitely deal a blow to the investment sentiment of overseas investors. This is contrary to the development direction we are talking at the moment.
President, I believe you have already noted that Hong Kong is still ranked second in the "Doing Business" report 2014 published by the World Bank recently. However, if the ratings are analysed according the detailed breakdown, we will find that the ranking of Hong Kong in "Registering Property" had dropped 29 places, from 60th last year to 89th this year, because of the introduction of adjustment measures, such as the double stamp duty, in the property market. If an additional tax on dividend income is levied, the blow to be dealt to the investment environment can only be described as even worse.
Furthermore, a company recording profits should have already paid profits tax. If it is required to pay an additional tax on dividend income, is it not tantamount to double taxation? Is such a tax contrary to the simple tax regime and enhancement of the investment environment we have all along advocated as well as the persistent efforts made by our rivals in recent years in reducing tax, actively attracting overseas investments and enhancing competitiveness? Hence, the power of destruction of introducing a tax on dividend income can absolutely not be overlooked. I therefore strongly oppose the introduction of this tax.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, Hong Kong has abundant fiscal reserves. As of end-September, our reserves already reached $700 billion, thanks to the stable tax revenue and annual surpluses. Of the Government's total revenue of $350 billion in 2012-2013, the overall tax revenue accounted for $242.1 billion, with profits tax, which stood at $125.6 billion, accounting for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3005
51.9%, or the lion's share, of the tax revenue. Next, salaries tax, which stood at $50.4 billion, represented 20.8% of the overall tax revenue. When these two items of tax revenue are added together, their total represented 72.7% of the overall tax revenue. Certainly, there are still some other taxes, including stamp duty, betting duty, and so on.
President, a simple tax regime and low tax rates are the cornerstones of Hong Kong's success. The original motion, which calls for reducing taxes across the board, must be seriously examined and not be taken lightly. Honestly, paying tax is the responsibility of good citizens and companies. I believe it is the hope of many people, including the Secretary, that they can enjoy quality services provided by the Government after paying tax.
Obviously, many people are not happy that they can still not enjoy quality services after paying tax. The 15-year free education, for instance, has yet to be implemented. Parents have to camp out and queue up for several days and nights just to obtain an application form for admission to kindergartens. Patients seeking treatment at accident and emergency departments have to wait for hours to see a doctor. Hence, many people, especially the middle-class people, consider it not worthwhile to pay tax because they think that their rights are absolutely not commensurate with their obligations.
President, the proposal of reducing taxes across the board is definitely not the most effective way to help the lower and middle classes, as well as SMEs. At present, Hong Kong has a labour force of 3.6 million, and over half of it is not required to pay tax. Only 20% of the population is required to pay tax ranging from $1 to $1,000. Therefore, reducing taxes across the board is not at all helpful to the remaining 75% of the labour force. Neither can they benefit from it.
President, during a meeting with the Chief Executive last week ― he met with 10 Members in just one hour ― I asked him this question, "Chief Executive, will Hong Kong make reference to Macao, which has announced the distribution of 9,000 patacas to every Macao permanent resident?" However, he did not give me a reply.
In 2011, the Financial Secretary's decision to hand out $6,000 to every citizen in Hong Kong drew scathing criticisms from people who collected the money while criticizing him. Actually, I do not consider a "cash handout" 3006 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 absolutely wrong, but it was wrong not to hand out money in a targeted manner. A one-off "cash handout" measure should target at the poor and the needy. This is the most direct and effective and the quickest relief measure. For instance, a cash handout is the most effective way to help CSSA recipients, street-sleepers and poor and impoverished elderly singletons. On the contrary, bringing them to Ocean Park or the Disneyland is not the best way to help them. It was certainly a waste of public money for the Government to hand out money to every member of the community, including "Uncle Four", the President and the Secretary. Therefore, it is most important for the Government to know how to "hand out money". If the money is handed out in a targeted manner, the needy can definitely be helped.
President, although I disagree with Mr Paul TSE's proposal of reducing taxes across the board, there are some taxes which must be abolished. For instance, the "curbs" measures of imposing stamp duty on buyers must be withdrawn because they were introduced by the Government as special measures to curb speculation and openly assist needy Hong Kong permanent residents in acquiring their homes at a time when speculation was rife in the property market.
Since the implementation of the "curbs" measures, however, we have absolutely not seen any data or evidence which can prove that the measures can assist needy Hong Kong permanent residents in acquiring their homes. On the contrary, they have brought harm long before bringing benefits, because the sentiment of people in the commercial and industrial sectors to purchase factories or offices for stable business operation has been dampened. These measures are definitely not beneficial to the development of the businesses and industries in Hong Kong.
I would like to take this opportunity to urge the Government to exempt Hong Kong people buying properties in the names of Hong Kong companies from payment of the Buyer's Stamp Duty, even if the "curbs" measures are not completely withdrawn. I believe a similar motion will be proposed by Mr Abraham SHEK later on, too. Since the "curbs" measures are aimed at assisting permanent Hong Kong residents in purchasing their homes, why must the Buyer's Stamp Duty cover non-residential buildings as well? Is this arrangement made by the Government to borrow a knife to kill others? I think that a review should be conducted by the Government.
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President, I would also like to take this opportunity to urge the Government in a relentless and persistent manner to conduct a comprehensive review of section 39E of the Inland Revenue Ordinance (IRD). President, the northward relocation of industries is already an indisputable fact. In view of the huge market in the Mainland, both foreign-funded and Hong Kong-invested enterprises would like to make their way into the Mainland for the development of the domestic market. Members should understand that it is extremely difficult to do export business because of the financial tsunami and the fact that European and United States economies are still on the road to full recovery. Hence, developing the domestic market might be one of the effective ways to assist us.
However, we are restricted by the relevant provision. What do I mean? If the industrial sector wishes to upgrade and restructure, it must change from "contract processing" to "import processing" and then relocate their plant to the Mainland before production can proceed. However, the Government will immediately deny them the depreciation allowances for machinery and plant and, worse still, recover tax from them as a result of changing from "contract processing" to "import processing". Eventually, everyone in the industry is in a state of panic and dares not proceed to restructuring. As a result, they do not have the means to develop the domestic market on the Mainland.
For the survival or otherwise of the industry and the future development of the industrial sector, I very much hope that the Secretary can either conduct a comprehensive review of section 39E of the IRD or set up a working group to fine-tune the relevant provision. This is the only way to benefit Hong Kong's industrial sector and bring Hong Kong industries life and prospects.
President, I so submit.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK: President, the wording of the motion moved today by the learned gentleman, Mr Paul TSE, reminds me of one famous line from a novel, Oliver Twist, "Please, sir, I want some more." But where do the money come from? It is not like manna from heaven. It is the hard-earned wealth that the middle-class people have actually contributed to Hong Kong.
There is a sense of déjà vu about today's motion, which asks for tax reduction across the board. It reminds me of the 2006 consultation on widening our tax base, in which the Government committed itself to reducing tax rates for 3008 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 all existing taxpayers if the Goods and Services Tax was introduced. Luckily, that proposal was shelved due to strong opposition from the Legislative Council and society.
At first glance, people will be tempted to support Paul's motion because of its perceived immediate benefits ― paying less tax. But closer scrutiny is needed and caution is called for. Does Mr Paul TSE harbor a hidden agenda to overhaul our simple tax regime? How far would the reduction of taxes go, and how would people at different income levels be treated differently? The wording of his motion leaves much to the imagination in the absence of any concrete ideas. Paul, like a good lawyer who is generous with words and also his views, says that on one hand, it is so and so, and on the other, it is so and so, ending up, on the third hand, with nothing. As a result, today's motion is overly vague and general to the point that it hinders meaningful discussion of the subject.
Perhaps Mr Paul TSE's motion is designed to overhaul our well-established tax system, which is not only set in stone in the Basic Law, but also in the acclaim and raging success it has brought to Hong Kong's reputation as the place to do business over the past few decades. But Hong Kong is changing now. Any attempt to alter this foundation stone is bound to crack the very foundation that Hong Kong is built on. Possibly, Paul is taking a cue from the present Government's interference with the free market. The Government is doing so first, and Paul is only following suit. The simple tax regime with low tax rates is a core part of our much cherished recipe of success. This competitive edge has encouraged many entrepreneurs as well as multinational enterprises to establish their businesses and regional headquarters here. It has encouraged capital to stay here and be invested here, and it sets Hong Kong apart from other advanced economies. If we lose it, we will also lose our uniqueness in the global economy. In the light of this, the various amendments, including those of Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Frederick FUNG and Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, all of which aim to bring about a sea change to this very foundation, must be carefully weighed and measured. Regrettably, this foundation is already being given away as said earlier, bit by bit by the present Government through its tough measures to curb the property market and interfere with the free market, which have raised the eyebrows of many investors because of the increased policy risks and market interferences.
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President, we should uphold our simple tax regime and focus on improving Hong Kong's well-being. For this reason, I am inclined to support Mr Jeffery LAM's and Mr WONG Ting-kwong's respective amendments, which highlight the importance of the middle class and the SMEs. They are the pillars of our very successful system. Additional tax allowance for SMEs and the middle class could help our society from turning into an M-shaped society. More importantly, those tax allowances can be implemented without making any radical changes to our tax regime ― they only require the Government's determination and wisdom to make the change.
President, Mr Ronny TONG is urging the Government to increase recurrent expenditure to address livelihood problems. His argument sounds plausible. For one thing, the Government has some HK$72 billion in fiscal reserves for 2012-2013, and its foreign exchange reserve assets amount to HK$2,400 billion; for another, it has long been criticized for being penny wise and pound foolish. Hong Kong is faced with several burning issues that need to be tackled urgently, including building more public rental housing for the 240 000 applicants who are on the waiting list and those living in cubicles, bed-space apartments and sub-divided flats; improving our education system from pre-primary to tertiary levels in terms of school places, and soon. President, I also support Mr Kenneth LEUNG's amendment, on which he has already delivered a speech. His proposal also sounds plausible.
Nevertheless, we should remember that our fiscal reserve, colossal as it is, can only support around 20 months' of government expenditure. Article 107 of the Basic Law stipulates that the HKSAR shall follow the principle of keeping the expenditure within the limits of revenues in drawing up its budget, and strive to achieve a fiscal balance, avoid deficits and keep the budget commensurate with the growth rate of its GDP. Bear in mind that the SAR Government suffered fiscal deficits for the five consecutive years since 1997-1998 (The buzzer sounded) …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Abraham SHEK, your speaking time is up.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK: Thank you.
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MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, on the subject of reducing taxes across the board to return wealth to the people, I think the best approach to return wealth to the people is to enable the people to become self-reliant through economic development, such that their lot will be improved. It is undeniable that since the abolition of the estate duty in 2006, rich people in Asia have been attracted to place their assets in Hong Kong, thus bringing many business opportunities to the financial services industry. The other example is the abolition of duty on wine in 2008. The arrangement has facilitated rapid development of the wine trade in a short period of five years, and Hong Kong has become the world's largest centre for wine auction for three years in a row and the major wine trading and distribution centre in Asia.
According to the Report on Annual Survey of Companies in Hong Kong Representing Parent Companies Located outside Hong Kong issued by the Census and Statistics Department (C&SD) in the past five years, the simple tax system and low tax rate factor has all along been regarded by respondents as the most favourable condition for choosing to locate their businesses in Hong Kong, and it has obtained over 70% of support for many years in a row. At the same time, according to a latest report on global tax assessment, Hong Kong is also ranked as one of the regions with the best taxation environment.
President, at present, the SAR Government only levies three categories of direct taxes, whereas the maximum rate of profits tax levied on enterprises is 16.5%. In comparison with other major cities around the world, the tax burden in Hong Kong has always been on the low side. Moreover, the issue of tax revenue should not be assessed out of the context, for it must be examined in conjunction with the expected demand for public expenditure. The Government now faces the risk of a gradual increase in public expenditure, which involves the ageing of the population and the non-declining population in poverty. For this reason, I think there is not much room for tax reduction across the board at present, however, partial and target-oriented tax concessions may be considered.
The SAR Government now holds a colossal amount of fiscal reserves and Exchange Fund reserve, so it has no urgency to increase tax in the short term. The demerit of tax increase is that the middle class will bear the brunt, whereas the grassroots and the disadvantaged groups will also be seriously affected. From the macroscopic point of view, an increase in tax will undermine the competitiveness of Hong Kong, where the loss thus incurred will definitely outweigh the increase in tax revenue. Therefore, I can hardly agree with the proposal of increasing tax.
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President, in the face of competition from neighbouring regions, it is necessary for Hong Kong to uphold its existing competitive edge of a simple tax system and low tax rate, otherwise, the chances of Hong Kong being marginalized will increase significantly. Meanwhile, the Government should use the colossal sum of fiscal reserves and accumulated surplus of the Exchange Fund held by it in a prudent but flexible manner, introducing new impetus to the economy of Hong Kong through the provision of various tax incentives.
The middle class is the major source of revenue of the Government coffers, which is also the supporting pillar of society. The grievance of the middle class has been building up in the past decade, thinking that they receive no reward despite all their contribution and that they are neglected by the Government. The power of the middle class has a long history, which can date back to the French Revolution the earliest and the emergence of the new middle class in emerging markets like Turkey and Brazil most recently. The revolution of the middle class will escalate, yet the stability of society as a whole counts on the middle class. Hence, the Government should seriously examine the necessity to alleviate the grievance of the middle class accumulated over the years through taxation arrangements.
To meet the aspiration of the middle class, the Government may adopt relief measures in the short term and economic policies in the long run. As in the past, the Government may increase the child allowance, the dependent parent allowance and the dependent grandparent allowance, as well as the deduction for self-education expenses, and so on, which are relief measures. The Government may further examine introducing a deduction for taking out medical insurance, seeking to alleviate the financial burden of the middle class on various fronts. As for long-term policies, the Government must stabilize property prices, so as to facilitate the middle class in purchasing their first home, enhance the job security of the middle class and promote overall economic development.
To stimulate the economy effectively, the SAR Government should address the development needs of industries by assisting the relevant industries in a strategic manner and providing financial and tax incentives, so as to further enhance industrial diversification. At the same time, the Government should encourage enterprises to fulfil their social responsibility by offering tax concession at an appropriate rate. These measures will not only enhance people's recognition of the importance of corporate social responsibility, but also 3012 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 increase employment opportunities and nurture young people, bringing benefits to the community and instill harmony in society.
President, the tax regime has been a controversial subject in society. The tax base of Hong Kong has all along been narrow. The major source of revenue of the Government lies in land sales, stamp duty and the investment return of the Exchange Fund, which is subject to the economic cycle and the conditions of the external markets, and it explains why the revenues will go up and down frequently like a roller coaster. As for the other part of the revenue coming from a relatively stable source, it is collected from a small group of middle class earning high incomes. But once the economy slows down, there is no guarantee that the Government's coffers will have income. Such a tax regime cannot guarantee a sustained and stable income for the Government. Worse still, the Government has experienced unexpected and significant increases in the costs of large-scale infrastructure and development projects. These are major hidden worries the Government has to face.
In the long run, in the face of the structural problem arising from the narrow tax base, which is growing increasingly serious, the Government must conduct a comprehensive review of the existing tax regime, identify ways to expand the tax base and increase recurrent income, otherwise, we will be facing an imbalance resulting from tightening income and expanding expenditure. If it is not handled properly, it will become a time bomb. In this connection, the Government should no longer act cowardly. If the reform on the tax regime is in the overall interest of Hong Kong and conducive to the long-term development of the territory, the people will naturally follow the Government, for Hong Kong is after all a rational society.
I so submit.
MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, as I listened to the speech delivered by Mr Martin LIAO just now, I found it quite similar to the speech I made last time. Today, our views echo each other.
When we in the Liberal Party met with the Chief Executive today, we already put forth our views that the Government should pay back taxpayers given the large amount of surplus it holds. In fact, for many years, the Liberal Party LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3013 has been requesting a tax reduction across the board, so the Liberal Party will naturally welcome the motion proposed by Mr Paul TSE today.
I was elected to the Legislative Council in 2004 through the functional constituency of the catering industry. Back then, I had stated in my manifesto the aspiration to reduce wine duty from 80% to zero. Colleagues may wonder why I should raise this point in this discussion on tax reduction today and whether I am trying to propose a provision of subsidies by the Government in future on the importation of wine or whether I am seeking a subsidy on top of the tax-free arrangement. No, I have never thought about that. However, since the wine duty rate has been reduced to zero, I have been making the regular request to the authorities every year for the permanent abolition of wine duty, as in the case of estate duty which had been abolished permanently. Under the present arrangement, wine duty has only been reduced to zero by the Financial Secretary, which means the rate can be increased at any time. To investors intent on expanding their wine businesses in Hong Kong, they will have some reservation after all, for they know not when the Government will increase wine duty again. Hence, to promote long-term development, I hope the Government will abolish wine duty.
President, in recent years, I have brought forth the difficulties faced by SMEs in business operation in the Chamber over and over again. Members have listened to the many complaints I have made, yet the authorities still remain indifferent. The authorities often stress the need for striking a balance, yet I wonder whether the authorities know the SMEs have to cope with the many new laws and regulations introduced in succession, such as the increased minimum wage rate this year, nutrition labelling, food surveillance, and so on … I believe the Secretary knows that the HK dollar has remained weak against RMB for a long time, resulting in high food prices and an increase in operating costs.
Certainly, apart from wages and food costs, rental is also very high. Hence, we have only one humble request, that a concession on profits tax can be provided to allow SMEs to have more cash flow. Besides, the Financial Secretary has mentioned the uncertainty about next year, so it will be better to have more money at hand as contingency, so that they will not have to endure too much hardship. However, the Government, be it the previous term or the current term, has mentioned little about supporting measures for SMEs in the policy address and the budget. I am quite disappointed about that.
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President, another point I would like to talk about is the middle class. We have mentioned to the Chief Executive the proposal to introduce deduction for residential rental for the middle class. We all know the recent rental situation, yet people cannot afford purchasing a flat at present. The "curbs" measures are tough, but property prices continues to surge, adding to this the shortage in supply of residential floor area, rent has become more and more expensive. I do not know why the authorities would have said that "double curbs" measures were effective, for property prices and rent have all along remained at a high level. The crux of the problem lies in supply, yet the authorities have failed to address it so far. In that case, the authorities may as well accept the proposal of the Liberal Party as soon as possible to offer tax deduction for residential rentals. It will be far more practical.
The middle class and the grassroots are facing increasing pressure in their lives, particularly in meeting the numerous family expenses. The Liberal Party has been requesting a reduction in salaries tax for many years. Today, I also want to talk about education. I believe most of the parents will agree that expenses on education are increasing. As such, the Liberal Party considers that apart from increasing the child allowance, the authorities should offer deduction for education expenses to parents at $60,000 for each child studying in kindergarten, primary and secondary schools. This will do more than returning wealth to the people, for the public will also be encouraged to spend the money properly, which will in turn have a positive impact on the education standard of the young generation, thus tying in with the Government's policy direction of attaching importance to education.
Moreover, Hong Kong now faces the challenge of an ageing population. Should the authorities increase the additional child allowance in the year of birth to encourage young couples to give birth? President, I notice that in recent years an increasing number of families need to employ foreign domestic helpers to take care of their children and elderly parents. In fact, many of these families are middle-class families which are not wealthy. As the minimum wage of foreign domestic helpers continues to rise, these families are facing an increasingly heavy financial burden. Should not the authorities appreciate the plight of these families and accept the views of the Liberal Party to make the expense on employing foreign domestic helpers a tax deductable item?
On the whole, the Liberal Party hopes that the authorities will not overlook the pressure faced by taxpayers, particularly the SMEs and the middle class, in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3015 living. This group of people has been working hard quietly and unremittingly for a better life, yet they seldom request the Government to meet their needs. However, it does not mean that the Government can turn a blind eye to their needs.
It is evident from the comments I have made that the many proposals put forth by the Liberal Party do not merely seek to alleviate the burden of taxpayers. It is hoped that the introduction of some tax deduction or reduction measures will address the problems and challenges now faced by society and even facilitate a more balanced development in certain social policies. The coffers have been flooded with cash for many years, so the authorities definitely have the room to change the "skinflint" principle in finance management and offer a tax reduction across the board. This will be the best solution.
President, in the past, the Government had also implemented salaries tax rebates, but they were only good sounding, for the so-called rebate of 75% of the tax paid was capped at $10,000. To the low-income middle class, it does not help much. I hope the Financial Secretary will examine whether it is possible to raise the ceiling to $25,000, so that the middle class with lower incomes will benefit more.
President, I so submit.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, regarding the proposal on reducing taxes across the board to return wealth to the people, on the surface, the general public may consider this very agreeable, but we must think rationally and analyse it thoroughly to avoid being biased. A responsible government will not act hastily, and more so, the tax regime in Hong Kong is subject to many restrictions. Prudence is the fundamental finance management philosophy adopted by the Hong Kong Government, which could be traced back to the British-Hong Kong era. It has been a proven philosophy in ensuring the stability and sustainability of the public finance of Hong Kong. Later, this philosophy is endorsed as a legal provision in Article 107 of the Basic Law, which states that, "The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall follow the principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues in drawing up its budget, and strive to achieve a fiscal balance, avoid deficits and keep the budget commensurate with the growth rate of its gross domestic product.".
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In view of the actual situation in Hong Kong, it is no easy task to adhere to this principle while balancing the needs of society, the economy and people's livelihood. Concerning the so-called principle of "keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues", it may be examined from two perspectives. From the perspective of government revenue, the revenue of the Hong Kong Government has three components: First, direct tax, including profits tax, property tax and salaries tax; second, indirect tax, such as stamp duty and bets and sweeps tax, and so on; and third, non-tax revenue, which mainly relies on land revenue and investment income. It is worthy to note that land income and stamp duty account for a considerable percentage in the total government revenue, yet such revenues fluctuate significantly. Take the revised estimates of 2012-2013 as an example. Due to the speeding up of land sales by the Government, the fast trading in the property market and the stock market, the land revenue and stamp duty for the year reached $69.1 billion and $43 billion respectively, which is 15.2% and 16.2% higher than the original estimates respectively, and the two items account for 25.2% of the total government revenue. In other words, over one fourth of the total government revenue is significantly affected by the economic environment.
In fact, Hong Kong is an externally-oriented economy, where the domestic market is easily affected by the external market. As some members in the market describe, Hong Kong will come down with flu even if the external market sneezes. I believe Members' memory of the Asian financial crisis in 1997 and the global financial tsunami in 2008 is still fresh. Under the influence of financial crisis and the slowing down of the global economy, the land revenue for 2008-2009 was only $16.9 billion, which was $26.2 billion less than the original estimate and represented a drop of 73% compared with that of the previous financial year. It is evident that there are uncertainties concerning the total government revenue, and it is no alarmist talk.
With regard to the government expenditure, social welfare, healthcare services and education are the major policy area groups. In 2013-2014, the estimated expenditure in these three groups is close to $170 billion, accounting for 60% of the government recurrent expenditure and representing an increase of 50% compared with that in 2007-2008. If the expenditure for a certain area is increased arbitrarily, it will definitely affect the expenditure for other policy area groups. Besides, it is often easy to increase expenditure but difficult to cut down, and any proposal incurring long-term financial commitment will invite doubts about its sustainability.
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To look ahead, the finance management principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues will be subject to challenges from two perspectives in the middle and long terms, which is comparable to facing both ends burning. According to the consultation paper on population policy titled "Thoughts for Hong Kong", by 2041, one third of the population in Hong Kong will be aged 65 or above, and the population at suitable age to work will shrink. The tax base of Hong Kong will be narrowed down further by then and government revenue will decrease. Meanwhile, as the population of Hong Kong ages, the public expenditure on medical and healthcare and social welfare services will surely increase. These two aspects will exert enormous pressure on the sustainability of the public finance of Hong Kong. From this perspective, it is necessary to commence a review of the tax regime of Hong Kong. However, any reform to the tax regime must strive for a proper balance. On the one hand, the low tax rate and simple tax regime should continue to be adopted by all means to maintain the competitive edge of Hong Kong on the global front and to attract foreign investment. On the other hand, sources of tax should be expanded appropriately to facilitate the sustainability of public finance.
President, regarding the review of the tax regime of Hong Kong, since it requires thorough studies and verification, a consensus will not easily be reached in society shortly. However, under the existing public finance management system, there is still room for the SAR Government to handle government revenue or expenditure flexibly, and this includes using the fiscal reserves to promote social justice and enhance the overall competitiveness of Hong Kong. As a government with far-sightedness, the SAR Government should work on two aspects. First, it must give regard to the needs of various strata of society. In recent years, society in general considers that the middle class has received little benefit despite paying heavy tax. They are sliding into the trend of degentrification, hence many grievances have been accumulated. The Government may adopt appropriate tax relief measures to alleviate the burden of the middle class, such as introducing a new deduction for residential rental, extending the period for home loan interest deduction and offering tax concession to people taking out healthcare insurance voluntarily.
Second, the Government should make full use of public finance to invest for the future. For instance, it may offer double or triple tax deduction to enterprises for funds spent on research and development (R&D) to encourage SMEs to invest in R&D; and it may extend the SME Financing Guarantee Scheme to provide a more favourable business environment for SMEs. 3018 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Moreover, the authorities should cope with the population development trend of Hong Kong by formulating long-term planning, investing in infrastructure, increasing land and housing supply, facilitating industrial development, enhancing the overall competitiveness of Hong Kong and making practical efforts to improve the economy and people's livelihood. These are the best cure for ensuring the sustainability of public finance.
President, I so submit.
MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, the taxation framework of Hong Kong is abnormal. Among the 3.4 million working population, only about 1.2 million are required to pay salaries tax, whereas 95% of the salaries tax is paid by 500 000 taxpayers. Since a large part of the tax revenue comes from a small group of taxpayers, the income of the Government may easily be affected by economic factors and experience sharp fluctuations. On the other front, we are facing problems of a shrinking working population resulted from an ageing population and low birth rate, slowing down of economic growth and continual increase in public expenditure. It is true that we have a relatively ample surplus to afford some short-term tax concessions, but given the objective condition of our population and the economy, I cannot but ask whether we really have the room and conditions to consider reducing taxes across the board.
Around the world, Hong Kong is one of the few places that can maintain a low tax rate, with the rates of personal income tax and profits tax set at 15% and 16.5% respectively. Compared to neighbouring countries and regions where a progressive tax regime is enforced, such as South Korea, Japan and Mainland China, and so on, the marginal tax rate is as high as 40% or even 50%, the tax rate in Hong Kong is very low. Adding to this the habitual tax relief measures offered by the Government every year, the revenue of the Government relies heavily on the income from land sales as a supplement. According to the consultation paper on population policy released only recently, the labour force will start to decline in 2018 due to the ageing population and low birth rate, which will in turn cause economic growth to slow down. It is anticipated that revenue from personal income tax and profits tax will drop further and the tax base will narrow further.
Despite the decrease in income, it is not much a problem if we do not have heavy expenditures. Nonetheless, the fact is that the increasing trend of public LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3019 expenditure continues, and there is no way to reverse the trend. Due to various reasons, the expenditure on social security and healthcare services increases gradually and will continue to increase. For instance, the Government estimates that if no healthcare reform is carried out, the Government may have to spend half of the tax revenue on healthcare service expenditure, and together with the expenditure arising from the ageing population and other expenses, it is possible that the Government will incur a deficit.
The situation will deteriorate for the public are imposing higher expectations on the Government. Some people worry that populism and welfarism are becoming popular. Political parties and the public may put forth many requests without considering the costs incurred, and they expect the Government to provide additional assistance on all fronts to alleviate their financial burden. The requests for the implementation of a universal retirement scheme, provision of 15-year free education and construction of additional public housing, and so on, will entail enormous financial resources, and this kind of requests are on the rise. Yet not many people will think about where we can get the money required.
I am not trying to deny the needs in society, nor am I saying that the authorities should not alleviate the financial burden of the public. However, we must look at the issue in a rational manner. The proposal to reduce taxes across the board will seriously affect the sustainability and health of the public finance in Hong Kong. At issue is that people are urging for the implementation of various new social investment items on the one hand and a tax reduction across the board on the other. The two proposals are comparable to the decision of choosing either fish or the bear's knuckles, for it is impossible to get both and society must make a choice.
In my view, if the financial pressure of the public is to be alleviated and social investment increased at the same time, a relatively feasible approach is to work on three fronts. First, a review of the existing tax regime should be conducted to introduce diversity. The authorities should guide society in engaging in rational discussions on this front, so as to set up a fairer, more stable and sustainable tax regime for the development of healthy public finance.
Second, on the premise of a stable tax regime and more stable tax revenue, the authorities should use the fiscal surplus to formulate long-term planning and increase social investment in education, healthcare and welfare, and so on, so as 3020 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 to bring greater benefits to society. At the same time, the authorities should make use of taxation policies and public expenditure to promote economic development, explore new fronts and enhance the long-term competitiveness of Hong Kong, thereby turning public expenditure into social assets.
Finally, the authorities should introduce target-oriented measures of tax reduction and offer incentives to the promotion of long-term policies instead of implementing a tax reduction across the board. Though the middle class in Hong Kong have to pay salaries tax, they cannot benefit from most of the social welfare measures. After the several rounds of financial and property crises, the middle class in Hong Kong is sliding into a degentrification trend. They have to face long working hours, job insecurity, a low sense of security and financial pressure arising from the increasing demand in living. The Government should give attention to their needs. In fact, in recent years, the New Century Forum to which I belong has been urging the Government to offer tax concession and assistance to the middle class through the introduction of capped tax deduction for private medical insurance, private housing rental, building repair expenses and children education expense, and so on, to alleviate the tax burden of the middle class.
President, for the aforesaid reasons, I disagree that Hong Kong now has the condition to reduce taxes across the board, and thus, I cannot support the original motion of Mr Paul TSE and the amendment by Miss CHAN Yuen-han. The amendments of certain colleagues urge the Government to review the tax regime, maintain stable and robust financial revenue for the Government, optimize the use of fiscal surplus and implement targeted taxation measures to alleviate the tax burden of the middle and lower classes. Since these proposals are closer to my rationale, I will support the amendments by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr YIU Si-wing and Mr WONG Ting-kwong. As for the remaining amendments, though I do not entirely oppose the introduction of additional taxes and the principle of "earning more, paying more" at the present stage, I think this will increase the tax burden of the public if it is implemented at the present stage for it is controversial. I think this should be left to society for further discussion, pending a consensus to be reached by society before it is implemented. Hence, I can hardly support these amendments.
President, I so submit.
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MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): President, the word "skinflint" is an apt description of the Hong Kong Government. In 2012-2013, the fiscal surplus of Hong Kong was $64.9 billion, but as at 31 March 2013, its fiscal reserves amounted to $734 billion, which approximately equals to 23 months of government expenditure. The coffers are not only flooded with cash but overflowing with cash. But still, the Government fails to optimize the use of the surplus and reserves to make long-term planning to help the grassroots in deep waters and to alleviate the pressure of the middle class and SMEs. It is not only lackluster but also incapable. It is hopelessly incapable.
President, regarding the 2014-2015 Budget, the Civic Party put forth 10 major proposals on tax concessions to the Government last week. The proposals include the introduction of a new deduction for medical insurance premium to encourage people with the means to take out medical insurance, thereby alleviating the burden of public healthcare services. It is also proposed that a new deduction for private residential rental be introduced to alleviate the pressure of people renting private housing who cannot afford purchasing their own home. The authorities should also provide deduction for voluntary MPF contributions and increase the personal allowance and married person's allowance, so as to ease the burden of the middle class. As for the extension of the number of years of home loan interest deduction, we have also put forth some proposals. We have also proposed increasing the deduction ceiling for self-education expenses, child allowance, dependant parent allowance, dependant sibling allowance and single-parent allowance, and so on. President, the series of tax concessions proposed by the Civic Party share the common feature of being target-oriented, designed according to the needs of the target groups and people. We are not advocating a broad-brush approach in tax reduction, which means "not everybody gets a tax reduction and not every tax will be reduced".
President, the purpose for a government to levy tax on the public definitely is to correct the unequal distribution of resources and fruits of economic activities through the tax regime and taxation arrangements. In Hong Kong, the disparity between the rich and the poor and the unequal distribution of fruits of economic development are serious at present, and it is necessary for the Government to address the problems through the tax regime. The Civic Party considers that a review of the tax regime is the most effective means and approach to address the deep-rooted problems in Hong Kong. The broad-brush approach of reducing taxes across the board, where reduction is offered to the rich and the poor alike, 3022 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 goes against the rationale for addressing the deep-rooted problems. I may perhaps say that the arrangement will on the contrary aggravate the problem of unequal distribution in society.
Given the hundreds of billions in reserves held by the Government at present, it definitely has the "ammunition" or resources to handle the poverty problem in the medium- to long-term. First, the Government may invest $50 billion for the setting up of a seed fund for universal retirement protection, so that a sustainable retirement protection scheme can be implemented under the "three-no" conditions proposed by the Civic Party, that is, no increase in tax, no increase in employers' contribution burden and no increase in employees' contribution rate. Moreover, with the introduction of the poverty line, the Government should provide a living allowance for low-income working families; we estimate this will incur around $9 billion per annum. Furthermore, the authorities may only need to spend $6.5 billion to provide about 5 000 additional places in residential care homes for the elderly.
President, it is evident that the above proposals are target-oriented measures. The investment of $9 billion for the provision of a living allowance for working families, the investment of $6.5 billion for the provision of 5 000 additional places in residential care homes for the elderly, as well as the investment of $50 billion for the setting up of a seed fund for universal retirement protection are all focused measures which policy objectives cannot be fulfilled through a tax reduction across the board. Hence, the Civic Party will not support the original motion proposed by Mr Paul TSE.
As for the amendment by Miss CHAN Yuen-han, since the wording to "reduce taxes across the board" is retained, we will not support it. Regarding the amendment by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che which proposes the introduction of a tax on dividend income of significant amount, the Civic Party considers, at the present stage, that the design of the proposal may be too complicated and it does not meet with the prerequisite of a simple tax regime in Hong Kong, so we will abstain on his amendment.
Concerning the amendment by Mr WONG Ting-kwong, it requests the SAR Government to reduce profits tax in the next financial year. The current rate of profits tax is already lower than that in 2007-2008, whereas the profits tax rate for limited companies is 16.5% and that for sole proprietors and partnerships LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3023 is 15%. Hence, the Civic Party does not consider it necessary, or that Hong Kong has the condition, to lower the profits tax rate further, and we will oppose Mr WONG Ting-kwong's amendment. As for the other amendments which I have not mentioned, we will support them.
I so submit.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): The motion title today is "Reducing taxes across the board". Members are presented with all kinds of proposals. On the one hand, the original motion proposes a tax reduction across the board, whereas some amendments put forth different proposals on tax allowances, or tax reduction in some measures. Yet, proposals on tax increase are also put forth. On the other hand, some amendments raise proposals on increasing expenditure. In fact, the debate today can be described as a debate on the budget.
The position of the Labour Party is crystal clear. We oppose reducing taxes across the board, for there are many problems in society waiting to be addressed, such as education, housing, welfare and healthcare, as well as economy and infrastructure, which we consider will entail a lot more investment. In pursuing a tax reduction across the board, it will naturally elicit the question of "where would the money come from". One may say that given the large amount of money held by the Government, say the some $2,000 billion reserve in the Exchange Fund and the some $1,000 billion fiscal reserves resulted from the continual accumulation of fiscal surplus, the proposal can be implemented by drawing down those reserves. It is true that we think the Government can work on many aspects, but I think a more responsible approach is for the Government to address the problem of ageing population first by allocating a certain amount from these reserves for the implementation of universal retirement protection. Taking into account the annual recurrent expenditure and annual recurrent income, we consider a significant increase in recurrent expenditure to address the problems will be inevitable.
If Members agree with an increase in expenditure to address the problems, it will not be practicable to pursue a tax reduction on all fronts, so the Labour Party is also concerned about enhancing the fairness of the tax regime. We will first look at expenditure. Since last year, we have mentioned a number of times a shortfall of $20 billion in the overall recurrent expenditure, which involves increasing expenditure in the current Medium Range Forecast, that is, an 3024 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 immediate increase in expenditure of $20 billion. Coincidentally, it is indicated in the report of the Commission on Poverty that it will cost $20 billion to lift all the people below the poverty line out of poverty. Therefore, the $20 billion is really necessary.
More often than not, this Council is suffering from schizophrenia. When the discussion is on expenditure, we will put forth numerous tasks to be completed. When it comes to education, we will put forth many proposals; when it comes to healthcare, we will put forth many proposals and when it comes to welfare, we will also put forth many proposals. If all these proposals, proposals on which all Members of the Legislative Councils have come to a consensus, are put together for the calculation of cost to be incurred, the authorities indeed need to increase its expenditure significantly. Therefore, it is unreasonable for us to express the need to increase expenditure for fulfilling all those tasks on the one hand but proposing a tax reduction on the other. For this reason, we basically consider this not the right track. When we suggest a need for making certain expenditure, we should at the same time ensure that adequate revenue will be collected through the tax regime to meet the expenditure rather than merely focusing on drawing down the reserves. Certainly, the reserves should be spent, but they must be spent in a worthy manner, including the implementation of universal retirement protection which may cost $50 billion or $100 billion, and it should be implemented through a one-off allocation. Basically, recurrent expenditure should be met by tax revenue.
Now I return to the part on tax income. The Labour Party advocates the introduction of a tax on dividend income of significant amount. Why do we advocate levying tax on dividend income of significant amount? There are two reasons. First, it is a matter of fairness. Members will notice that the dividend received by LI Ka-shing or his companies exceeds $13 billion, and if a dividend tax is levied on such dividend, it will amount to $2.1 billion. How much income is LI Ka-shing earning? He is earning $55,000 per annum. His annual income is $55,000 ― it may be incorrect, for we have only counted a few companies of his. I do not know how many companies he has in Hong Kong. Will it be 100 companies? We really do not know how much in director's remuneration he is receiving. We have only counted the two largest companies, namely Cheung Kong and Hutchison Whampoa, and it is indicated that his income is $55,000, so he does not have to pay tax.
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The situation is very clear. All wage earners in Hong Kong are working hard to earn their income, and they have to pay salaries tax, but why does LI Ka-shing not have to pay tax? Why do all tycoons and super-tycoons in Hong Kong not need to pay tax? The reason is that they do not receive any salary and all they receive are dividends. We have done a calculation on the dividends received by the five families, including Sun Hung Kai, Henderson, NWS and Hang Lung. The dividends received by the five founders in total will render them liable to a dividend tax of $10 billion. If that is the case, we can imagine how unfair will it be if all the wealthiest people in Hong Kong do not need to pay taxes?
However, some people consider the approach incorrect for it is imposing double taxation. Let me refer to the history which even K C CHAN may not know. Do Members know who was the first person proposing the levy of a dividend tax? He was Philip HADDON-CAVE. Back then, he proposed levying tax on dividends, but the proposal was opposed. Eventually, he imposed an additional rate of 1.5% under profits tax for that year. In fact, places around the world are levying a dividend tax. In places like the Mainland, European countries and the United States, dividend taxes are being charged, so why can Hong Kong not levy a dividend tax?
Regarding the concern about double taxation, there is another view that part of the tax on the overall profits of a company will be paid by the company and part of it will be paid by shareholders, major shareholders in particular. Under this arrangement, there is no question of double taxation, but only that two methods are adopted for levying tax. Why is it not feasible? Why can other places levy a dividend tax but not Hong Kong? Why can Hong Kong be so unfair by allowing tycoons not to pay any tax? Indeed, many political parties and groupings have not yet accepted this proposal. I hope Members will reconsider the proposal in a more rational manner, for it is our righteous duty to implement a dividend tax in Hong Kong to make the tax regime fairer. A dividend tax definitely should be levied.
Thank you, President.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, the tax regime is a major tool for redistribution of resources in society. By means of taxation, the Government 3026 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 can suitably transfer resources from the wealthy class to the grassroots facing difficulties in daily living.
About Mr Paul TSE's motion on "Reducing taxes across the board", I myself and the Neo Democrats have reservations, for a reduction of taxes across the board may amplify the elements causing unfairness in the existing tax regime in Hong Kong, failing to bring about the effect of returning wealth to the people. As such, I will instead propose to the Government to reform the tax regime, using its public powers to narrow the severe disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong as far as possible.
President, a tax regime should always adhere to the principle of "earning more, paying more". It is against this background that the Government can maintain financial stability while meeting expenditure on welfare policies, and it will not levy excessive tax on people earning a low income. According to the report for 2012-2013 of the Inland Revenue Department (IRD), tax revenue in Hong Kong comes mainly from profits tax, which amounted to $125.6 billion, accounting for more than half of the tax revenue. If profits tax is reduced hastily, it will definitely result in a decrease in government revenue, which will affect welfare expenditure and in turn cause the grassroots to suffer.
Certainly, taxpayers of profits tax include all the SMEs. If the Government intends to enable the SMEs to share the fruits of economic development without imposing a tax reduction, the Government should abolish the standard rate for profits tax and introduce a progressive rate, so that large enterprises and multinational corporations will shoulder more social responsibility.
I would like to take this opportunity to mention one point in passing, that is, I hope that the Government will increase its welfare expenditure. At present, the Government is holding fiscal reserves and an accumulated surplus of the Exchange Fund totalling $1,300 billion. Prof Secretary K C CHAN, the Government is being unkind despite its richness, having coffers flooded with cash, so the Government should give priority consideration to returning wealth to the people.
President, concerning salaries tax, the Government should raise the threshold of chargeable income to above the existing level of $120,000 and the married person's allowance to above the existing level of $240,000 to bring forth LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3027 the effect of tax reduction. By raising the threshold for paying tax and expanding tax bands, the tax net will not be narrowed excessively and some less well-off middle-class people may fall out of the tax net, so they will have spare money for savings, investment and study, moving gradually up the ladder.
President, the tax net is comparable to a fishing net, if it is closely knitted and held too tightly, the Government will certainly get all the fish in one go, but the immature small fish will also be caught, thus affecting the ecology. On the contrary, if the fishing net is less closely knitted and held slightly looser, the catch may decrease, yet it will give time for respite and growth, and this will be conducive to the long-term sustainable development of Hong Kong. On the basic principle of "earning more, paying more", the standard rate for salaries tax should also be replaced by the marginal tax rate under a progressive tax regime.
President, an increase in tax allowance will indirectly promote the inclusion of the young and the elderly and encourage childbirth. Hence, given the overflowing coffers, the Neo Democrats suggests that the Government should further increase the dependant parent allowance and the dependant grandparent allowance. These measures will offer incentives to the middle class to support the elderly in their families, which may help cutting the number of elderly persons applying for social welfare. Moreover, an increase in child allowance will alleviate the burden of parents in raising children. On the other hand, the coming of the new generation will counteract the trend of ageing population and promote the development of the labour market, and the effect will be far-reaching and positive. The Government should also examine the introduction of more measures of tax allowance focusing on the grassroots and the middle class. For instance, it may introduce tax deductions for residential rentals and medical insurance premium to ease the plight of the public in their daily living.
President, under the existing circumstances in Hong Kong, certain taxes should not be waived. The Buyer's Stamp Duty is a case in point. The purpose of the tax is to prevent overseas buyers from pushing up property prices by speculation, so the rate definitely should not be lowered when the measure has started to take effect in cooling the overheated property market. If taxes for combating speculation in the property market are relaxed, the public will eventually become the victims of high property prices, causing an increasing number of people to become "slaves to property" and "snails without a shell". In future, the Government should actively consider introducing a vacant residential property tax, for this will not only expand the tax base, but also prevent 3028 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 speculators from hoarding flats to the point of affecting people's livelihood in Hong Kong and achieve the objective effect of returning wealth to the people indirectly.
President, in conclusion, I consider Mr Paul TSE's motion on "Reducing taxes across the board" impracticable in implementation and in specific details. The Government should conduct studies on reform of the tax regime, adopting the principle of fairness and "earning more, paying more", so that the tax regime will serve as a means to benefit the people.
President, I so submit.
MR WONG YUK-MAN (in Cantonese): President, the public finance and tax regime of Hong Kong can be described with the following clause: "At the sound of divergent public views, the Government and the business sector call the tune". The SAR Government adheres to the principle stipulated in Article 107 of the Basic Law, which states that it "shall follow the principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues in drawing up its budget, and strive to achieve a fiscal balance, avoid deficits and keep the budget commensurate with the growth rate of its gross domestic product". This provision has become a curse. For this reason, the Government adopts a regime of low tax rate, turning a blind eye to the plights of the 1.26 million people struggling in poverty.
Though the SAR Government had reduced tax in the past, the public in general reduction had not benefited from it. In February 2006, the SAR Government abolished the estate duty to attract overseas capital and facilitate the development of asset management business. In February 2008, it cancelled the duty on wine and liquor with an alcoholic strength of less than 30%. The two measures have only benefited the rich but not the grassroots in any sense. In fact, after the deduction of basic allowance, dependant parent allowance and child allowance, the grassroots in Hong Kong probably do not have to pay any tax, so a tax reduction will not bring about the merit of "returning wealth to the people and benefiting the grassroots".
When the Government abolished the estate duty and duty on wine, it thought this would promote economic development. I cannot but ask whether economic development can only be achieved by concentrating the wealth in the hands of consortia and rich people. Does it mean that the redistribution and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3029 reasonable distribution of wealth, which enables the general public to share the fruits of economic development and improve their quality of life, will fail to promote economic development? The SAR Government is now holding fiscal reserves amounting to $730 billion and the foreign reserve amounting to $2,400 billion, and an enormous surplus is recorded every year. How strange it is that some Members said earlier the Government might experience a financial crisis and that it was no alarmist talk. I do not know what he is talking about. For a small place with a population of 7 million people, why do we have to remember the misfortune in the past in considering the good at present and why do we have to worry about the future when we have accumulated over $2,000 billion in the foreign reserve and over $700 billion in fiscal reserves? What are you talking about, buddy? The 7 million people in Hong Kong have every right and condition to lead a rich life. Hong Kong can be "a society with equal distribution of wealth". However, now in Hong Kong, the number of households living in poverty is increasing and the disparity between the rich and the poor has been the most serious among the advanced regions in the world. Moreover, there is a serious shortage in public housing; a shortage in residential care places for the elderly, the disabled and the sick and a shortage in public healthcare services, and so on. In recent years, the Government has been telling the public on and off the risk of Hong Kong facing a public finance crisis, so it has gradually adopted the "user pays" principle in the provision of services. I will describe this with one word: Shameless.
There is this common Chinese saying stating that, "even a good housewife cannot prepare a meal without rice", but now the Government holds a colossal sum of money but does nothing. What is the Government saving it for, for the stewing of "vinegar"? Why does it have to adopt the "user pays" principle? The idea of promoting economic development on the one hand and trying to be a "skinflint" on the other is definitely ridiculous. The taxation policy of Hong Kong is also displaying symptoms of schizophrenia. In addition to the abolition of the estate duty in 2006 and the duty on wine in 2008, the SAR Government had attempted to levy a sales tax in 2007, and it introduced the plastic bag levy in 2009, in addition to having increased the tobacco duty several times in the past few years. Most of these duties are regressive taxes. Why had the Government not considered the damage these duties would have done to the economy? The Government is cutting taxes on the wealthy on the one hand and increasing the taxes on the poor on the other, so it is going against the rationale of "redistribution of wealth".
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To correct the injustice of the tax regime of Hong Kong, a reform of the tax regime should be geared in the direction of wealth redistribution. For this reason, progressive elements have to be introduced into salaries tax and profits tax, and new taxes like capital gains tax, dividend tax and overseas income tax, and so on, should be introduced. Only by doing so will the livelihood of Hong Kong people be improved and the balance of public finance maintained. Many right-wing economists advocate the use of negative income tax as a means of wealth redistribution. Though I do not agree with this, I will not deny its so-called "good intention". In my view, the tax regime or the method of wealth redistribution is not the primary concern. The key lies in whether the Government supports the rationale of "leaving wealth with the people".
To date, the basic principle adopted by the SAR Government in public finance management is to "produce surplus for the coffers". Its practice is comparable to practicing swimming on land and putting on double helmets while walking under a canopy. How ridiculous it is!
In the year before last, The Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation (United States) pointed out that Hong Kong was holding too much in fiscal reserves. Right-wing economists consider that the finance management of the Government is inefficient, for it has failed to invest properly for the development of society and the economy. As for economists inclined to the left, they consider the social welfare provided by the Government inadequate and that it is unacceptable to "keep the Government rich but the people poor". I believe people who are truly left-wing and right-wing will agree to "leaving wealth with the people", so this "skinflint" SAR Government can please neither side and it is not accepted by any side.
No one will accept the present situation of "keeping the Government rich but the people poor", so I have been making incessantly requests on the SAR Government to return wealth to the people. However, the Government's so-called "sweetener" measures adopted in the past only involved injecting money into the MPF accounts, providing rates waivers, waiving the rents of public housing, and so on, which were merely measures introduced at the convenience of the Government's bureaucratic administration. When the public in general were receiving several thousands dollars in rent waiver and electricity subsidy, many large companies were enjoying rates waivers amounting to tens of million to hundreds of million dollars. It is outrageous.
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Since "689" LEUNG Chun-ying took office, I have been pondering why he has not followed the practice of Macao to offer "cash handouts" every year to salvage his plunging popularity rating. The other day, the Macao SAR Government gave away $8,000 cash to each member of the public. The Macao Government has given out $34,000 in total to each person between 2008 and now. As for our "small Government", it had only given out $6,000 to Hong Kong people in 2010 in an unwilling and reluctant manner. In comparison with the $34,000 given out by the Macao Government, there is a difference of $28,000. Since the Government is not going to do anything, it had better give away the money. The popularity rating of the Chief Executive has reached the lowest, and if he tries to offer "cash handouts" a few times, his popularity rating will rise immediately. How can he be so shameless as to say that Members returned by election have a lower popularity rating than his, and if they do not have to resign, why does he. He is utterly shameless. The survey on Members is on the rating of the top ten famous Members, yet the survey about him is a territory-wide survey, and if no one supports him, why does he not quit (The buzzer sounded) …
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): This motion on reducing taxes across the board proposed by Mr Paul TSE actually does not come as a pleasant surprise to us, though it may be a bit of a shock to the Secretary. But as the Secretary is used to witnessing "grand scenes", he should not feel too shocked anyway. Many people think that if tax rebates were really provided, the money should be returned to where it came from. Therefore, the ultimate beneficiaries will be the taxpayers.
I come from the industrial and business sector. Some Members who are in this Chamber said that the industrial and business sector should not be given any tax rebate and that this sector should not be treated kindly. Please do not say this. Because in the industrial and business sector nowadays, many people no longer share the past thinking that it is best to make a fortune that will ever last for their descendants in many more generations to come. In fact, many businessmen nowadays simply do not wish to have children and the money that they are going to leave behind them may all go to charity or donations in the future. This proposal of reducing taxes across the board cannot do any good to the grassroots for they have to scrimp and save even on their meals and they have no means to pay tax. The so-called secondary wealth distribution in modern 3032 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 society absolutely cannot benefit the grass-roots people. The DAB has always supported that the money should be distributed to the most needy ones and so, we will not support the original motion of Mr Paul TSE.
When should the Government increase or reduce taxes? Article 107 of the Basic Law provides that "the principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues" should be followed. I have actually written down the specific provision but since a number of Members have just read it out, I am not going to repeat it. The Article mentions the need to "avoid deficits". I really do not understand why the Financial Secretary has invariably come up with a deficit budget. Does it not mean that he has acted against Article 107 of the Basic Law? It is more laughable that those deficit budgets did not turn out to be red at the end of the day. Fortunately, the economy of Hong Kong has managed to hang on over the past few years or else our Treasury would really be in great perils.
I admit that when the Treasury has no money, the Government would need to increase taxes and explore ways to increase revenue, but when the reserve is awash with money, consideration may have to be given to reducing taxes. A number of Members have said in their speeches today that the Government's reserve is awash with money, and for what purposes can the money be spent? We agree that there should be reductions in certain areas, such as reducing the salaries tax liability of the middle-class people or increasing the tax allowance, thereby helping ease the pressure of the middle class in living. This is absolutely what should be done.
It was mentioned earlier that the Government's reserves and the Exchange Fund reserves have added to a total of over $3,000 billion. What should be done with so much money? I have worked very hard to actively think about how the money can be spent for the Government, and I have looked up some information. The Government stated that the foreign reserves serves the purpose of strengthening the stability of the Hong Kong dollar. Then how much money has the Government printed? It seems to be only some $300 billion. Some people said that this is not the case and that some bank deposits and notes are also included. Apart from strengthening the stability of Hong Kong dollar, the Exchange Fund reserves is also used for meeting the committed expenditure and liabilities. Then how much is that? Infrastructure development accounts for only some $300 billion and as this will be apportioned among several years, it requires only $70 billion to $80 billion a year. The expenditure on pension for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3033 civil servants is some $600 billion, meaning that it will require only some $1,000 billion in total. Even if $2,000 billion will be required, there is still a balance of over $1,000 billion. For what purposes can this be spent?
If this sum of over $1,000 billion cannot be handed out to the people immediately, I think it can be used to meet the challenges brought by an ageing population. We have often talked about the problem of ageing population recently. At present, one elder is supported by five persons of working age. In 2041 when the elderly population reaches 256 000 as estimated, one elder will be supported by two persons of working age. This will impose a heavy burden on our next generation. In view of this, do we in this generation have any responsibility? Since everyone is looking at the Exchange Fund reserves, do the authorities have the responsibility to allocate a sum of money from the Exchange Fund to making plans for our next generation? For example, a fund for infants, which I always talk about, can be set up to properly make preparations for each infant born in Hong Kong, so that they will not have to worry about pursuing studies in university or saving up enough money for meeting the down payment for their property in the future. I think the Government absolutely should make consideration in this direction in order to meet the challenges brought by population ageing.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): President, a simple and low tax regime has long been a proven public finance policy favourable to business and investment. As this policy has consistently been implemented since the opening up of Hong Kong for trade, even Article 108 of the Basic Law provides that the low tax policy previously pursued in Hong Kong should be taken as reference after the reunification. A simple and low tax regime has naturally become one of the indispensable significant competitive advantages of Hong Kong as an international metropolis. In the report of Paying Taxes 2013 published by the World Bank and the International Financial Corporation, in which 185 economies were surveyed in respect of the tax cost and the tax compliance burden, Hong Kong is found to be among places where paying taxes is easy. I stress that it has been a request made by the business sector that the Government absolutely should not change the principle of a simple and low tax regime easily.
The Inland Revenue Ordinance enacted in 1947 marked the establishment of a more comprehensive tax system in Hong Kong and has since been a 3034 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 cornerstone of Hong Kong's public finance policy. A simple and low tax regime as well as the tax law have provided taxpayers with a simple and clear basis which has, for a long time, greatly reduced the compliance cost, facilitated business operation and the people's living, and attracted inward investments and talents. A progressive tax system, if introduced, will make the tax regime complicated and open a window for taxes to be increased gradually. Therefore, I think this warrants careful studies by the relevant institutions and it is all the more necessary for policymakers to think twice.
The tax rates in Hong Kong can be considered the lowest among the developed regions. Since 1980, the various tax rates in Hong Kong have broadly remained stable and stayed at relatively low levels. I think minor adjustments in the short term in response to the prevailing circumstances can be considered and accepted, but there is no room for reducing taxes across the board because this will easily lead to greater risks. It should not be difficult for Members to understand that stable tax rates and a simple tax regime are most important to corporations in making long-term planning, and a tax system with uncertainties and frequent changes will cause confusion to corporations and make it difficult for them to make investment decisions. This will put a drag on the long-term development of various sectors in Hong Kong as a result.
President, I think quite many members of the public, like me, do not find it easy to understand the specific meaning of "returning wealth to the people". The fiscal reserves is a public asset and a kind of wealth owned by all the people, and its transparency has all along been very high. The annual expenditure of the Government is monitored by the Panel on Financial Affairs and the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council and when prudence is exercised in spending, the beneficiaries are obviously the people of Hong Kong, so how will there be a question "returning wealth to the people"? Moreover, when there is full employment, if the disposable income of the people is increased and if we look at it from this angle, this will drive demands, stimulate spending and push up inflation, which is entirely not in line with the fundamental principles of economics. Besides, a tax reduction should not be a "routine gesture" in the budget every year.
President, the Hong Kong Government has always attached great importance to fiscal prudence and fiscal stability. The fiscal reserve system was set up as early as the 1930s of the last century, and as a number of colleagues have just said, after the reunification, Article 107 of the Basic Law expressly LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3035 provides that Hong Kong should follow the principle of keeping expenditure within the limits of revenues in drawing up its budget and strive to achieve a fiscal balance and avoid deficits. Since Hong Kong is a place where a low tax regime is enforced, it is impossible for us to become a so-called "from-cradle-to-grave" welfare state where the people are taken care of from birth till death. Although Hong Kong has accumulated disposable fiscal reserves of about $700 billion, if we make some calculations, we will find that there should not be much left in the reserves after deducting the provisions for civil service pension and expenditure on long-term infrastructure. Hong Kong actually still needs to maintain the fiscal reserves at a certain level to fend off any unexpected financial crisis, such as the attack by international predators in 1998 or the changes in the economy in the event of incidents like the SARS outbreak. Coupled with the problem of population ageing that we are now facing which means that the tax-paying population will gradually drop, it is all the more necessary for the Government to maintain relatively strong fiscal reserves. When a large surplus is recorded in a certain year, part of the reserves can be allocated to set up an initial fund for elderly or universal healthcare protection, or to make preparations for financing of elderly care and major healthcare services in society. All these can be taken into consideration.
All in all, we must learn a lesson from the experience of some developed countries where poor fiscal management has resulted in indebtedness and the people ultimately being plunged into the sufferings of tax increase and austerity measures.
President, I so submit.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, the motion proposed by Mr Paul TSE today urges the Government to reduce taxes across the board to return wealth to the people. I think he must have thought that this would certainly earn applauses for him but most unfortunately, a number of Members, be they representatives of the business sector or the grassroots, hold that this proposal is neither feasible nor acceptable. They even said that they would vote against the motion. I think this should be unexpected to Mr Paul TSE.
President, what is the problem then? I think the problem lies in the phrase "across the board". Had he not proposed an "across-the-board" reduction, I think perhaps Members would have supported him. Our tax system have two 3036 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 major purposes to serve. The first is to pay for public expenditure or to make commitments for it. The second is to enable all the people to enjoy the fruits of society, especially to narrow the wealth gap. But if taxes are reduced across the board, the second purpose will not be served, for the wealth gap will not be narrowed. It will only result in the poor becoming poorer and the rich richer. So how can we support it? Therefore, on this point, I hope that Mr Paul TSE can reflect on it. A wealth gap still exists in Hong Kong and this is a very serious phenomenon which is discussed continuously in society. If taxes are reduced across the board, how can the wealth gap be narrowed? Therefore, in view of this point, the proposal is hardly acceptable.
On the other hand, in respect of making commitments for public expenditure, and as pointed out by many colleagues earlier, the objective is to make "those who have the means pay more". What is the meaning of "those who have the means"? It means making the rich people pay more. But if the taxes are reduced, they would not have to pay more, and how can this be acceptable? Of course, you may question why the rich people have to pay more. Many colleagues also asked this question earlier on. With such huge fiscal reserves now, why should certain people be made to pay more? The reason is that even though the Government is now acting like a miser indeed, in all fairness, the Government really still faces a shortage of resources in many areas and so, it is impossible to take forward its work. Particularly, in many areas, the Government's concern about resources has deterred it from taking steps to institutionalize the measures long term. This is the case for healthcare service. This is the case for retirement protection for the elderly, and this is the case for students pursuing studies. To put it simply, university students who do not have the means need to take out loans to pay for their tuition fees, but why should they be made to pay interests? What will the Government do? The Government is, to a certain extent, worried about the long-term commitment required and has, therefore, refused to do anything. This is why the Government often says that ― just as some colleagues said earlier ― the external economic conditions or government revenue is unstable. It has kept on making these remarks as a shield or a cloth to cover up its shortcomings, as some people have put it, trying to cover up everything and refusing to make long-term planning and institutionalize the measures. Therefore, I think we should not reduce taxes when the financial position is good. Rather, we should make long-term planning and look into how the measures can be institutionalized, with a view to narrowing the wealth gap in society.
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In fact, we have seen that with regard to social welfare facilities and services ― This includes the provision of more residential care homes and enhancing services for the carers, as repeatedly stressed by colleagues, in order to enable people in need to be provided with more support. All of these are expenditures for which government commitments are required, but the Government does not dare to institutionalize these services. Instead, it introduced the Community Care Fund two years ago, telling the people to hold out on their own while it will look into the possibility of regularizing these services in the future. In doing so, the Government seems to be exercising prudence on the surface, but I would say that it actually lacks the courage to do anything, fearing that long-term commitment will be entailed and not knowing clearly how much commitment it has to make. Such being the case, I think the Government has to identify more sources of long-term and stable income. Many colleagues have, earlier on, expressed support for ― particularly as pointed out by the Neighbourhood and Worker's Service Centre ― development in two aspects. The first is to implement a progressive tax system which will perform significant functions. First, under this system, people who make more money and enjoy more fruits in society will pay more. Second, it can narrow the wealth gap, and this is a very important function. On this point, I think the Government should do more to expeditiously introduce a progressive tax system especially for profits tax and even salaries tax, because some "king employees" are earning a lot of money and yet, the Government is only asking them to pay tax at the standard rate. This is not right, and the existing system has to be changed.
Moreover, the Government also has to introduce certain taxes, including a tax on large amount dividends, as mentioned by Mr LEE Cheuk-yan earlier, and a capital gains tax, in order to achieve a more even and reasonable distribution of wealth in society. In this connection, I hope that in this year's budget, apart from reducing some taxes for the lower-middle class to ease their burden, such as providing tax allowances and broadening the tax base, the Government will also provide more tax deductions for expenditures incurred in taking care of their children, grandparents and parents to alleviate their pressure in living, so that the living expenses will be more even among the people and the discrepancy can be narrowed. This is a key point and the direction of the development of the tax system today. All these cannot be carried out in one go. Similarly, apart from the proposal of reducing taxes across the board which is not supported by Members, it is also not desirable to hand out money in one go (The buzzer sounded) …
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, time is up.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): … which was also criticized in the past and should not be done.
MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): President, having listened to the speeches made by a number of colleagues in this debate today, I think if the government officials or financial officials of other countries in the world have listened to this debate, they may not know what we are arguing about here.
Some overseas countries do spend all their money without leaving a single penny and do not have a reserve. So, they certainly have to identify new sources of tax revenue and in the process, they, of course, uphold the principle that people who are more well-off pay more taxes. But the situation in Hong Kong is just the opposite. Our problem is that the Government is very rich, but it is saving up the money and refusing to spend it. This is why the Liberal Party supports all the proposals made this year by Members representing the grassroots, pan-democratic Members and even pro-establishment Members on providing more care services for the disadvantaged groups, whether they are people with disabilities or single-parent families. The reason is simple. It is because we hold that the Government has too big a surplus now.
Having said that, I do not understand why a number of Members have put forward various views to champion for the opening up of more sources of tax revenue for the Government, suggesting the levying of more profits tax and introducing a progressive tax system. On the one hand, they said that consideration should be given to introducing a capital gains tax and on the other, they said that a dividend tax should be considered. For those governments with empty coffers, they certainly have to levy these taxes. But take Singapore as an example. Their situation is similar to us in that the Singaporean Government has a huge reserve, and they have abolished all those taxes that I mentioned above. Like Hong Kong, they do not have estate duty, capital gains tax or dividend tax.
I think in Hong Kong, which is a metropolis, people who have the means to pay more should co-operate with those who do not have the means to pay. Your side can call on the Government to increase its spending while our side can LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3039 support the Government to spend more, rather than categorically urging the Government to spend more and then making the better-off people pay more and using such words as "wealth gap", "those who have the means pay more", and so on. In fact, people who do not have the means are not paying less but are actually the recipients, and we absolutely support this. But in view of the financial position of the Government, why is it necessary to levy more taxes, which would otherwise make the Treasury which is intended to prepare for a rainy day become fuller and fuller to the extent of overflowing?
Let us look at some recent figures. As at September 2013, the total assets of the Exchange Fund amounted to some $2,900 billion, which is a lot more than the $900 billion at the time of the reunification. Recently, the representatives of the Hong Kong Monetary Authority attended a meeting of the Panel on Financial Affairs chaired by Ms Starry LEE. According to their explanation, on top of this $2,900 billion or so, a return amounting to tens of billion dollars to $100 billion can be made annually and some $30 billion will go to the Government's Treasury. We think that even if the return does not all go to the Government, the Treasury is already overflowing, and it is indeed a correct direction to provide assistance to the disadvantaged with the money in the reserves by all means. However, in respect of the caring of the disadvantaged, the Government's annual recurrent expenditure is only some $200 billion. Even if the Government increases a few billion dollars here and a few billion dollars there in those areas that require assistance, I absolutely share the view of Mr Paul TSE that in respect of the caring of the disadvantaged, the Government still has the means to provide more tax rebates.
Some colleagues considered that as Mr TSE proposed to reduce taxes across the board to return wealth to the people, they cannot support him because many people who live in poverty need not pay tax and hence cannot benefit from this proposal. In fact, the several amendments proposed by Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr WONG Ting-kwong and even Mr Ronny TONG have all called on the Government to do more and we will, therefore, support them. But with regard to exploring new sources of tax revenue for the Government, the Liberal Party does not see this need today and so, we will not support it.
We can also look at what the Government has said on recurrent revenue. I will try to cite figures provided by the Government as examples for illustration. According to the estimate made by the Financial Secretary for 2010-2011, a deficit of $25.2 billion was estimated for the year but it turned out that a surplus 3040 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 of $75 billion was recorded, showing a difference of about $100 billion. The same happened for the year 2011-2012 as the original estimate was a deficit of $8.5 billion but in the end, there was actually a surplus of $73.7 billion, showing a difference of $80 billion. The year 2012-2013 is no exception. From an estimate of a $3.4 billion deficit, it turns out that there is now a surplus of close to $70 billion. After looking at the budget estimate made by the Government, many Members thought that it would be necessary to explore new sources of fiscal revenue in advance but in fact, the tax revenue has been very stable in Hong Kong, generating a handsome income annually. Therefore, the Government is in a position and has the means to make permanent commitments for expenditures.
Therefore, with regard to the opposition raised by the pan-democratic Members against the "case-by-case" approach of taking care of the disadvantaged on a one-off basis and their demand that these services be incorporated as recurrent expenditures, so that the problem can be resolved by making a limited amount of provisions at a few hundred million dollars to a billion dollars, the Liberal Party supports this. Therefore, it is indeed unnecessary to cause further division in society. Sometimes, we feel that some remarks are actually made for the public's eyes, lest why should it take tax revenue to resolve policy problems? Take the wealth gap as an example. Some people said that those who have the means should pay more, but the Government will put the additional tax revenue received into the Treasury, rather than using it to help the disadvantaged. On the contrary, even if taxes are not increased, so long as the Government will do more to provide support for the disadvantaged, the wealth gap could be narrowed all the same.
Society is extremely divided now, and that suggestion does carry some measure of envy, though I will not call it an "envy tax". In short, it is because some people are envious of what other people have and would like them to contribute a bit of their possessions. But even if this is done, it is not going to benefit other people, for the Government will simply put it into the Treasury or buy 30-year United States Treasury bonds with it, helping the economy of the United States to turn the corner, though this will have the support of the pan-democratic Members or many pro-establishment Members representing the grassroots. If society should continue to be divided like this, I think this is not a good thing at all. So, I suggest the pan-democrats and other Members to do more so long as the objective is to take care of the disadvantaged, and if there is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3041 still money left, I will support that wealth be returned to the people and taxes be reduced across the board, just as Mr TSE suggested.
Thank you, President.
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I believe many Members from the business sector, and even all members of the Hong Kong public, do not quite understand why the Labour Party would demand an increase in taxation by introducing a so-called tax on dividend income of significant amount at such a time. Are the coffers of the Government not overflowing with money? It is true that we have more than $3,000 billion in our pockets, as Mr James TIEN said, and frankly speaking, this sum of money can never be exhausted no matter how we spend it, for it is almost equivalent to a decade's worth of recurrent expenditures for Hong Kong. I do not think there is any government that is as rich as ours in the whole world.
This being so, why do we still demand a tax increase? Of course, what Mr Paul TSE proposed today is a reduction in taxes. The question now is how we can create more wealth, so that the Government can continue to maintain the low tax rates and at the same time, carry on with its operation, while no problem would arise in various aspects of our economy. Is this not the most desirable situation? Of course not. At present, the hidden taxes in Hong Kong can be found in a number of expenses relating to land and housing arising from the high land price policy. In fact, each member of the public has to bear such expenses, in particular, low-income members of the public. They have to pay rents and rents also account for a high proportion of the prices of the items that they consume and pay for daily.
The value of land and the high land price policy have made our Government indolent. It is true that the Government does not have to increase taxes and the business sector is happy, and so are professionals. Indeed, no problem can be seen, but this has resulted in wealth disparity and caused sufferings among the public. Many people in the lower and middle classes have to pay the price because the poorer a person, the higher the proportion of hidden taxes he has to pay under the high land price policy, thus leading to an uneven distribution of wealth. Nowadays, the standard rate of our profits tax is 16.5% but the profits tax rates in advanced countries around the world are double ours. In Australia, it is 30%; it is somewhat lower in Canada, standing at 26.1%; in 3042 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Germany, it is 30.2% and in Japan, it is 37%. Even if we compare ourselves with the United States, China, South Korea or New Zealand, the rates in these countries are 10% higher than or even double ours. The large corporations in these places have to pay taxes on their profits and certainly, the standard tax rate for chargeable taxes and income tax in Hong Kong are simpler. They are both cheap and a bargain. Even the highest standard tax rate stands at only 15%.
Most importantly, we do not have any taxation policy on the total income. In respect of income, in fact, what wealthy people rely on is not working for others, rather, they rely on dividends and asset appreciation. They use their assets to make investments and it is the money earned in this way that is the most significant. Therefore, if we look at our tycoons, for example, Mr LI, his director's emoluments, which are regarded as his salary, are only some $50,000 per year, or on average just several thousand dollars per month, so he does not have to pay any tax but the dividends received by him are whopping. President, although we have no way of calculating how much his company is paid in dividends, according to our estimate, his company, together with his family, receives dividends amounting to tens of billion dollars each year. Although as an individual, he is only paid $2 billion, according to the rate mentioned by us, he still has to pay at least $300 million in tax each year.
Just consider this: Some people are so rich that they earn an income of billions of dollars each year, yet they do not have to pay any tax, whereas some people only earn an income of tens of thousand dollars but they have to pay so much tax that they become poor. Is this fair? In demanding that taxes be increased, we want the Government to change the overall economic strategy for Hong Kong instead of merely relying on gambling and speculation. There are only two industries that are doing well in Hong Kong ― the financial industry and the real estate industry ― and we are relying on these two industries to speculate continually and push up property prices, so that the Government can continue to receive revenues, and property developers and the Government can all make money together. We do not have any problem, the Government is very stable and sound, there is no need to increase taxes but all members of the public except a small number of tycoons have to bear the adverse consequences.
For this reason, it is very reasonable for us to demand the introduction of a tax on dividend income of significant amount. Moreover, such a tax is not invented by us. All advanced economies in the world except Singapore levy a tax on dividend income of significant amount. This kind of tax is levied in the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3043
United Kingdom, the United States, Australia and Taiwan. Such a tax is levied in overall terms. For example, in the United Kingdom, the tax is even progressive in nature, so the higher the income, the higher the tax rate. In all North European countries, for example, in Germany and the Netherlands, dividend tax and capital gains tax are levied, so why are they not found in Hong Kong?
According to our estimate, of the $600 billion in return from share dividends in Hong Kong, dividend incomes of significant amounts account for only 10%. Please note that we do not want to levy the tax on small investors in the stock market. We propose that an allowance of at least $250,000 be provided. Therefore, members of the public with securities assets worth less than $10 million do not have to pay any tax at all. The target of this tax proposed by me is tycoons who possess over $10 million. Only those whose shares alone are worth more than $10 million will have to pay such a tax. According to our estimate, this type of tax will generate $10 billion in income. President, how should this $10 billion be used? At present, the number of university places in Hong Kong is only 15 000 per year but last year, more than 28 000 people obtained results that qualify them for university admission. If we let all of them go to university, it would only cost the Government $2.6 billion.
In addition, we have many care centres and residential care homes for the elderly. We also have such services as day-care, home care and community care for people with disabilities and the elderly. We also have such services as accident and emergency departments and if we increase the services of out-patient specialist clinics, community nurse and general out-patient clinics drastically, no matter how hard we try to spend the money, we would be able to spend just $9 billion. President, we really cannot spend so much money. Even though I thought long and hard about this, in the end, I still had to say to an Honourable colleague, "Forget about it. We can only return the $10 billion that remains unspent to the Government.". If we levy a tax on dividend income of significant amount, public living can be improved and with stable recurrent expenditure, the public can lead stable and healthy lives.
With these remarks, President, I hope the Government can think earnestly and will not be so lazy as to just rely on the high land price policy to fatten itself and estate developers. Thank you, President.
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DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, in the past, with the tenacious and indomitable spirit found in the television series Under the Lion Rock, Hong Kong people pushed the rapid development of our economy and created what is described by the world as the miracle of a rock. Since the take-off of the economy in the 1970s, a middle class gradually emerged in Hong Kong and it also became the mainstay of the Hong Kong economy. However, before and after the reunification, the middle class has all along shouldered the responsibility of paying taxes. After the Lehman Brothers minibond incident, a new term came into being, that is, the middle class in Hong Kong became "the most miserable class in the middle ". It mainly refers to the fact that the middle class in Hong Kong only has the duty to pay taxes but is not entitled to any welfare benefits.
Today, many Honourable colleagues have raised issues relating to the tax regime, so I will try to focus on my perspective as a professional and a member of the middle class. I could hear the demands made by Members around me to the Government and of course, what they hope the most is that people in the middle class would no longer be regarded as "the most miserable class in the middle". However, what we hope even more is that people in the middle class in Hong Kong can account for an even higher proportion of the population in society. According to statistics, the proportion of people in the middle class in Hong Kong accounts for about 30% at present, whereas it is 46% in the United Kingdom, 51% in the United States and 53% in South Korea. Why do I talk about the proportions in this regard? I think many people will agree that the middle class is a force conducive to economic and political stability in society and the middle class is bearing the expenditures needed by the elderly and the next generation in their lives.
If we have the vision to make the proportion of the middle class in Hong Kong society as a whole rise to 50% a decade later, in that case, our target should not merely be the alleviation of poverty. Rather, it should lie in enabling the grass-roots people to use the existing opportunities in Hong Kong to move upwards and escape from poverty. I believe that insofar as this vision is concerned, parents, in particular, those of grass-roots families, all hope that their next generation can have the opportunities to break away from poverty and become the mainstay of Hong Kong, no matter how hard they have to work, instead of relying on Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) and the assistance of other people.
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In the 17th century, a well-known philosopher in the United Kingdom, that is, John LOCKE, whom the Americans regard very highly, continually advocated that there were two very important convictions that must not be shaken, one being natural science and the other being the rising middle class. I have to stress the word "rising" because a lot of people are not members of the middle class but society provides opportunities for them, so that the whole mechanism can give them opportunities to move upwards. In 1992, the then President of the United States, Mr Bill CLINTON, also wanted to introduce a very important campaign, so that Americans could show appreciation for some hard-working middle-class families that had been forgotten and at the same time, the Government also recognized their efforts and provided social security to them. This year, president OBAMA stressed again that the prosperity of the United States hinged on how the proportion of the rising middle class in society could be raised further and that the prosperity of the United States also rested on the shoulders of this group of people, and of course, one of the reasons is that they shoulder the responsibility of paying taxes.
I believe that in times of economic prosperity, the great majority of people in the middle class in Hong Kong who have the means to pay taxes are willing to contribute more for the sake of the unfortunate in society. However, each time when Hong Kong encounters economic difficulties, they are not given any protection whatsoever. However, they are not used to being recipients of assistance and Hong Kong people in general do not want to rely on CSSA. I believe we have to consider how to raise the proportion of the middle class. Firstly, it is hoped that they can continue to meet their needs and among them, I believe healthcare, housing and education are the major areas in which they have to shoulder the responsibility for the previous generation and the next, particularly in healthcare. At present, we are exploring the reform in healthcare financing and one of the points is to encourage the middle class to bear the healthcare expenses of their parents who are about to retire or have even become elderly people. For example, one of the questions is whether or not it is possible for the expenses on healthcare insurance to be tax deductible. To give an example in respect of the next generation, in particular, children in pre-primary years, since 15-year free education has not been implemented in Hong Kong, the expenses on young children are precisely the highest, so can the expenses in various areas be included in the scope of tax allowances?
Another example is the need to maintain Hong Kong's competitiveness and attract more talents. Just now, an Honourable colleague said that except 3046 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Singapore, the dividend tax can be found in other regions but I think that at present, since Singapore is the greatest rival of Hong Kong, I hope the wrong cure must by no means be administered. Apart from the likelihood of deterring some investors from coming to Hong Kong, I know that many talents who choose to work in Hong Kong are attracted by the simple and low-tax policy in Hong Kong.
I hope that the grassroots and friends in the so-called the middle class, and even members of the public who shoulder the responsibility of paying taxes, will know that we are not diametrically opposed to one another. I hope that all parties can co-operate. The Hong Kong Government should also learn how to use its funds properly and put money into "piggy banks", for example, by investing in healthcare, in particular, public healthcare and education, as long-term investments whenever there is a surplus each year, rather than insisting on performing structural operations on the tax regime.
President, I so submit.
MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, taking a glance at this motion entitled "Reducing taxes across the board" moved by Mr Paul TSE, I thought that it was a political gesture because taxpayers would surely like it. At a time when the fiscal position of the Government is so sound, proposing such a motion would surely win plaudits. However, on this motion proposing a reduction of taxes across the board, the DAB believes that it is not focused enough, so it cannot lend it its support. Mr WONG Ting-kwong has already expounded on the position of the DAB on this question.
It can be said that Mr Paul TSE's motion has achieved the effect of "whipping up rolling waves by throwing a rock". A number of Members have proposed amendments and as a result, the focus of this motion debate no longer falls on whether or not to reduce taxes but on reviewing Hong Kong's tax regime. This is desirable because the tax regime in Hong Kong really has to keep abreast of the times.
A tax regime is the most important tool for a place to provide revenues to the Government, so as to support expenditures, and the relevant taxes must provide stable revenue to the Government. Indeed, in Hong Kong nowadays, for a long period of time, revenues have exceeded the expenditure. As pointed out by a number of Honourable colleagues, we hope that through the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3047 arrangements under the tax regime, the goal of wealth redistribution can be reached, thus narrowing the wealth gap.
However, to be fair, the simple tax regime and low tax rates in Hong Kong as designed upon its inception as a port were founded more on considerations of competitiveness than fairness. The facts tell us that the simple tax regime and low tax rates prove highly successful and have enabled Hong Kong to become one of the four Dragons in Asia and attract a large number of companies and talents to Hong Kong. As Dr Priscilla LEUNG said, the reason for the return of many friends in the middle class from overseas to Hong Kong is also the tax regime here. Therefore, I do not agree to making major changes. Although I do not agree to making major changes, a responsible Government has to conduct reviews on the tax regime regularly, so as to understand oneself and others, thereby enhancing the tax regime in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a small, open and externally-oriented economy that must maintain its competitiveness. Although a simple tax regime and low tax rates are favourable to our competitiveness, as Mr Paul TSE said, at present, the strategies adopted by our major rivals in neighbouring regions are very ambitious. In fact, the conditions provided by Singapore and other Chinese cities to high-technology and quality industries do not compare favourably with those in Hong Kong, so the tax regime in Hong Kong still has some appeal. However, if we do not try to understand ourselves and others by conducting reviews regularly, we will really face very strong competition.
Another problem facing Hong Kong is of course wealth disparity. A number of amendments point out that since a progressive tax or capital gains tax cannot be found in the tax regime in Hong Kong, the concept of "earning more, paying more" cannot be put into practice, thus leading to wealth disparity. If anyone asks me if the tax regime is one of the causes of wealth disparity in Hong Kong, my answer is "yes" ― this is absolutely the truth ― but it is not the root cause. A number of Members suggested that there was no need for the legislature to discuss the issue of whether or not the introduction of a progressive tax (depending on how it is introduced) or various types of taxes would make wealth disparity disappear. However, I believe the answer is in the negative.
The tax regimes in the United States and the United Kingdom are more complicated than that in Hong Kong, but if Members have the opportunity to discuss with the people there, they will find that their discussions on wealth 3048 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 disparity are still very heated. For example, in London and the large cities in the United States, the discussions of local residents on wealth disparity are still quite heated. The root cause of the widening wealth gap in Hong Kong, apart from the characteristics of the tax regime, also lies in the fact that the Hong Kong economy has yet to restructure successfully and its industries show a trend towards excessive homogeneity, as well as the failure of the Government to administer the right cure to the illness by making optimal use of our reserves.
Obviously, although at present, there is no objective need for the Government to increase taxes immediately, it is only necessary for the Government to review its past strategies on expenditure and the distribution of the surplus for areas requiring huge expenditures, such as the elderly, poor families and education, and give them more resources, then the living of the elderly and poor families can be improved and the grievances reduced. Therefore, I hope that after a lot of debate, the Financial Secretary would re-examine the Government's philosophy of fiscal management.
This year, the DAB have put forward 24 major proposals related to the allocation of resources to the SAR Government. Various political parties and groupings have also made a number of demands. I hope that the Government can propose targeted measures to deal with this issue in the budget.
On the criticisms directed by some Members at the abolition of such taxes as estate duty, I do not agree with them because abolishing the relevant taxes can really help make a bigger pie, so that the Government can have more tax revenues. As I said just now, in theory, with more tax revenues, the Government should know how to make better investments to provide more welfare benefits to society. However, precisely because of the lack of specific targets in the Government's strategies on expenditure or allocation of the surplus or the unsatisfactory strategies of the past, the grievances in society are mounting. Therefore, the key lies in how to utilize the fiscal surplus.
Lastly, I have to respond to the views voiced by the Civic Party on the amendment proposed by Mr WONG Ting-kwong of the DAB just now. The Civic Party said that it would oppose the DAB's amendment because we propose that salaries tax, profits tax and rates be reduced in the next financial year. I call on Members to note that in the past, the Government had introduced measures to reduce the salaries tax, profits tax and rates on a number of occasions, particularly those related to the reduction of profits tax. Let me cite the Budget Speech of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3049
2013-2014, "… reducing profits tax for 2012-2013 by 75%, subject to a ceiling of $10,000".
I believe that if the Civic Party does not lend us its support because of the reduction in this regard, it has to give an account to SMEs because the reduction proposed by us is not intended to reduce the profits tax liability of large corporations, rather, it is specifically designed to ease the financial pressure that SMEs also face, so as to enable SMEs to enjoy the benefits arising from tax revenues and the surplus.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, I understand why Mr Paul TSE moved this motion today. In fact, we can all see that the government coffers are overflowing with money and there are hundreds of billions of dollars in fiscal reserves. Together with the reserve in the Exchange Fund, the total is close to $2,600 billion.
However, we cannot see the Government use the surplus in its pocket to ease social grievances or ameliorate the wealth gap. Even so, I still cannot agree with the proposal in the original motion of reducing taxes across the board. As we all know, the Government always says that it does not have enough money, that each year, there is the possibility of revenues falling short of expenditures, that the economic situation is changeable, that we have to face many challenges, that next year, a fiscal deficit may arise, so on, and so forth, but each time, it was just a case of "crying wolf".
Why did the Member move a motion to request that the Government reduce taxes? I think the most important and major issue is that he found the Government had not taken any action or used the resources at its disposal, to take care of the neediest people, in particular, socially disadvantaged groups. If we look at society, we will find that the Gini Coefficient is rising continually and the poorest group of people in society is also the most miserable group. Their expenses on housing, no matter if they are renting their flats or paying off the mortgage on them, sometimes account for more than half of their salaries. Given an inflationary trend, the money at their disposal is decreasing. We fully agree with this point and hope that in future taxation arrangements, the authorities can offer tax reductions to low-income people. However, we do not mean an across-the-board reduction, rather, only people in need should be targeted.
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However, what worries me is the fact that many Members from the business sector, including Mr WONG of the DAB, are taking this opportunity to demand a reduction of the more controversial profits tax. Although Ms Starry LEE is not present, I still have to reiterate the view of the Civic Party. It is not true that we do not allow or agree with a reduction in salaries tax or rates, nor do we oppose the salaries tax regime or the broadening of tax bands. What we mainly oppose is the reduction of profits tax proposed by Mr WONG Ting-kwong in his amendment. As we all know, the tax rates for doing business in Hong Kong, in particular, that of profits tax, are rather low and someone suggested that we compare ourselves with Singapore, but this is not fair. If employers want to operate businesses in Singapore, they have to make high amounts of contributions to the Central Provident Fund. After factoring in this hidden tax, the taxes are quite high. Moreover, the VAT, that is, the value-added tax, has not been factored into this. Therefore, we cannot just look at the profits tax in Singapore. We need also to factor in the contributions made by employers to the Central Provident Fund for their employees and the rather heavy burden of the VAT, so it is necessary for us to look at the whole picture. It can thus be seen that the Civic Party is being very fair. If any Member cannot hear us clearly, I can explain to them further.
In fact, there are many things on which government actions are merited. We know that many residents living in housing estates are rendered very miserable by The Link. Members must have all heard of the saying "misfortunes never come singly". It is only necessary to look at the poorest districts, such as Tung Chung or Tin Shui Wai in Hong Kong, to find that the prices of goods in these districts, be it in markets or shops, are the highest in Hong Kong. The reason is that the residents there are "cornered" because in those districts, there are only shops under the management of The Link, with few other choices. Even though there is a shopping centre owned by LI Ka-shing, it is still necessary to bear high rents. In these circumstances, given that The Link increases its rents every year, commercial tenants have to transfer the entire burden to ordinary members of the public. Therefore, we have requested more than once here that the Government use its fairly abundant reserves to buy back The Link. It is not true that the Government does not have the ability, but it has missed the most opportune time. Of course, by the most opportune time, I mean the initial period. In fact, the Government specified in the sale and purchase agreement at that time that in the first year, new shares could be issued and the Government could carry out a buy-back but unfortunately, the Government did not do so. Is it too late to do so now? Although the cost of buying back The LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3051
Link is high, we understand that if this is not done, the situation would only deteriorate further and would not see any improvement, that is, The Link would only go after exorbitant profits and become even more insatiable for profits.
Furthermore, we can also see other similar situations, that is, despite having a surplus of over $10 billion ― in 2012, it had a surplus of $13.5 billion ― the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) still wants to raise its fares. Now, the Government has a major stake in the MTRCL and it is more than 76%. We demand that the Government buy back the remaining stake of less than 25% in the market, so that the hard-earned money of the public would not be exploited further by such pseudo-consortia originating from the Government.
At the same time, we absolutely agree that the Government should offer some tax reductions, including introducing a stamp duty for low-priced flats, for example, by putting flats the values of which have risen from $2 million to $3 million on a par with flats worth $2 million at present and charging a fairly small amount of stamp duty. In addition, the Government should also offer an allowance for renting private flats. We also hope that the Government can raise the allowance for salaries tax, or the personal allowance, to more than $130,000, and the married person's allowance to more than $300,000. We believe that these measures can help ease the tax burden borne by people with the lowest incomes in society.
Meanwhile, I also hope that the Government could spend appropriately by committing sufficient resources to healthcare and the arrangements in relation to the care of the elderly, welfare and socially disadvantaged groups, for example, to such services as homes for persons with disabilities and homes for mental patients.
With these remarks, I oppose reducing taxes across the board.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, today, we are discussing the issue of tax reduction. First, we have to look at how the financial situation of the Government is like. Eight words sum it all up, "The coffers are overflowing and too much surplus.".
Today, the great majority of Members agree with these eight words and I believe the SAR Government also has no alternative but to acknowledge this. 3052 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Why are the coffers overflowing and why is there too much surplus? Because the Government did not spend even though it should have, pretended to spend money and spent fake money. Therefore, if the Government goes on like this, we should continue to hurl "underworld bank notes" at it because it is not spending real money but fake money.
I once said that the budget could be called "a budget scam foretold" because it is known beforehand that it is designed to deceive and play number games. First, it creates "false expenditures" and a slight deficit but it ends up with a large surplus. The Government has collected too much money from us but refuses to spend it and now, it still wants to collect more, so of course, we would not let it do so. For this reason, today, a Member proposed that the taxes be reduced across the board.
However, we found that the motion on reducing taxes across the board moved by Mr Paul TSE is very well-meaning as he wants to allay grievances and make the public happier, as well as sanctioning the Government to an appropriate extent. However, what I wish to say is that not to mention a tax reduction, even freezing the collection of taxes would not scare the Government because at present, the Government really has far too much money, so much so that it could just sit and wait for its doom, or just sit idly for the gradual exhaustion. Even if it were to refrain from collecting money for three years, it could still get by. Therefore, our demand to reduce the taxes a little can neither scare it or sanction it in any way.
In fact, instead of discussing a tax reduction, we had better take this opportunity to discuss returning the money directly because we believe that returning the money directly is fairer and more effective than reducing taxes and doing so can also benefit more Hong Kong people. In fact, since 2010, the People Power has been demanding that cash be handed out to the public to ease their hardships. At present, the Hong Kong Government is sitting on $700 billion of surplus and today, a number of Honourable colleagues have also said a number of times that the surplus ran into tens of billion dollars each year, so we demand that $10,000 be given to each member of the Hong Kong public this year.
If the Administration can hand out $10,000 to each member of the public, for grass-roots families, this sum of money is enough to meet their living LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3053 expenses for several months. To the middle class, this sum of money can also ease their burden of paying off the mortgages on their flats or providing education to their children.
As at September, the deficit of the SAR Government stood at $60 billion, mainly because the greater part of the revenue from salaries tax and profits tax is collected only in the latter half of the financial year, so the deficit will not be very different from that of last year. Since the economic situation in Hong Kong is stable, coupled with the fact that the SAR Government has imposed a number of taxes, such as the SSD and BSD, this year, the People Power believes that the figure announced this financial year will also be the same as that of last year, that is, it will turn from an estimated slight deficit into a surplus of tens of billion dollars. Does the Financial Secretary dare lay a wager with me? If my prediction is correct and it turns out there is a surplus of tens of billion dollars this year, I would kneel my way out. If the Financial Secretary wins and there is really a slight deficit, I will kneel my way out but if I win, the Financial Secretary would have to kneel his way out. Does he agree? Of course, the Government dares not make predictions in the way we did. In addition, Hong Kong hoards $700 billion in fiscal reserves and a surplus of $600 billion in the Exchange Fund. As I said just now, this is enough for the Government to meet three years' expenditure. Therefore, we propose that $10,000 be handed out to the public to ease their hardships and there is definitely plenty for this purpose.
The major sources of income for the SAR Government are properties and land. Land is a matter of public finance and we all have a share in it: The grassroots have a share, the middle class has a share and so do tycoons. Therefore, we think that it is very fair to distribute the fiscal surplus to the Hong Kong public evenly. At the same time, this can also achieve the effect of wealth redistribution. Of course, the Government said in the past that it was not willing to return the money to all members of the public, that even if you people filibustered, there was still no room for discussion. However, this year, it seems there is a slight change. LEUNG Chun-ying said that no money would be handed out but after John TSANG had been asked a number of times how great the likelihood of handing out money would be, quite unexpectedly, he uttered four words: "We will consider it.". That means he has to see what kind of situation would arise in the end.
In fact, returning the money direct does not conflict with a tax reduction and they are not mutually exclusive. The SAR Government actually has more 3054 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 than enough. Since too much money was collected in the first place and there is a large sum of money in its hands, there is no reason for collecting more money from me, so a tax reduction is justified. However, the original motion today proposes "reducing taxes across the board" and a controversy has arisen because of the three words "across the board". A number of political parties said that since "across the board" means reducing everything, how possibly can we reduce everything? One of the functions of taxation is wealth redistribution, so people making more money should pay more and those earning less money should pay less. It is very fair for those who earn more to pay more. Moreover, the problem of wealth disparity in Hong Kong is really very serious and I am not going to spend time citing examples from the Gini Coefficient. Even after welfare expenditures are factored in, the Gini coefficient still stands at more than 0.4.
In the remaining time, I wish to talk about the many amendments today. In fact, we support the progressive tax and capital gains tax proposed by Miss CHAN Yuen-han in her amendment. However, I do not understand why, surprisingly, she did not delete the words "reduce taxes across the board" from her amendment. Since the words "reduce taxes across the board" were retained but the passage that follows talks about increasing taxes, the DAB picked on the five words "reduce taxes across the board" and said that it would not support her or the capital gains tax proposed by her. I believe that she only overlooked the words "reduce taxes across the board" and she does not really want a reduction of taxes across the board. Otherwise, she would not have proposed the progressive tax and capital gains tax.
As regards Mr Ronny TONG's amendment, I support its general spirit. His amendment says, "… this Council urges the SAR Government to increase recurrent expenditure to address livelihood problems". We also say that if no money is going to be handed out, it is necessary to look at if there is long-term planning or the implementation of universal retirement protection before we will discuss with the Government. However, if the Government does nothing, it had better hand out money. However, the last line in Mr Ronny TONG's amendment reads, "… or else reduce taxes across the board to return wealth to the people.". With regard to the first part, the Government surely would not do something like that and if it does nothing, what it has to do is to "reduce tax across the board and return wealth to the public", so that means everything has to be reduced. Therefore, it is rather difficult for us to express our support for this point.
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We hope that the SAR Government will cease to give us the impression that it is not spending appropriately and that it is playing number games, juggling the figures with the "art of statistics" to deceive the public. If the Government is not willing to hand out money, it has to spend it properly.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, I speak in opposition to this motion on "Reducing taxes across the board". As regards the amendments, so long as they involve reviews and measures favourable to the middle class, we will support them. Just now, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen has already put across the demands of the People Power.
President, I wish to point out some facts and situations, so that the Government can examine them in detail and see if the present situation is reasonable and fair. The responsibility of the Government is to carry out resource distribution and redistribution through the tax regime. This is the ABCs of public administration, that is, how to implement some concepts of administration through public powers, taxation and fiscal arrangements. People who support collusion between the Government and business and are tilted to the interests of consortia will surely support a reduction of taxes and rates waiver.
For many years, I have pointed out continually that the entire system of the Government is skewed. Be it LEUNG Chun-ying, the Financial Secretary or even the Secretaries, their thinking is, without exception, totally biased in favour of consortia and whenever there is the slightest chance, benefits will be transferred to consortia. Take the rates waiver as an example, consortia and large real estate developers can often have their rates rebated by more than $90 million but when ordinary members of the public want to get several hundred dollars or even $1,000 back from the Government, it looks as though someone wanted to take its life. It can thus be seen that the Government does not have any qualms whatsoever and is very generous when transferring benefits to consortia, but when it is asked to do something minor for the public, it would cite many excuses, explanations and such grounds as financial pressure, the long-term use and commitment of public funds by the Government, and so on, to shirk the responsibility.
According to the relevant figures, the reserves of the SAR Government has increased by $458.6 billion in the past decade and the foreign reserve has 3056 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 increased by $1,884.5 billion, so the total increase in these two areas was more than $2,340 billion and the government reserves and foreign reserves have reached $3,620 billion in total. As Mr CHAN Chi-chuen said just now, even if the Government no longer receives any revenue, the reserves are still enough to last three years. Therefore, the actual situation is that the more bloated the Government is, the poorer the public become. In addition to the continual rise in the Gini Coefficient, the number of poor people has even reached 1.2 million. The number of the working poor is also rising continually but the Government still refuses to hand out money.
Secretary, have you ever felt ashamed of yourself? Now, the revenue and economic development in Macao, a place regarded as our poor relative in the past, have overtaken those of Hong Kong by countless times and over there, money has been handed out seven times so far and this is done every year. Not that the Hong Kong Government has no money; only that it is being generous at other people's expense by handing out money to consortia, real estate developers and large corporation, whereas ordinary members of the public cannot get any share. Therefore, the tilt in policy has given rise to all kinds of peculiar problems.
The Macao Government has just decided to distribute $9,000 to each resident and even non-permanent residents can get $5,000 each. As a result, in the past few days, our offices have received calls from many members of the public and I can even tell the Secretary that the number is the largest throughout so many years. In last couple of days, the calls from members of the public from various sectors came not just from those in districts where public housing estates are found, like Tin Shui Wai, Tuen Mun and Yuen Long, but also from areas inhabited by the middle class. They all believe that the Government should follow the example of Macao by handing out money and giving the Hong Kong public a fair deal. Many people demanded a tax reduction, but we will surely oppose a reduction of profits tax strongly, since such a measure will only benefit consortia. Moreover, the profits tax rate in Hong Kong is already the lowest in the world. We demand that resources be distributed in a reasonable way through tax collection and public administration.
President, I have to stress it is distribution in a reasonable way. We do not want communism or the implementation of the mode of welfare society or welfare state found in Scandinavian countries. Of course, personally, I have a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3057 very high opinion of the mode of governance in Scandinavian, in particular, in Sweden and Norway, which enables citizens to truly live in peace and work with contentment. However, I do not hold such a fond hope. In this capitalist society full of exploitation and oppression called Hong Kong, under a Government run and controlled by "689", who has no legitimacy whatsoever, and given the thinking of the Secretary, I would not hold any fond hope whatsoever of seeing Hong Kong develop in the direction of Scandinavian societies. However, the Government has to be fairer and more humane by doing what human beings should do, so that the living of Hong Kong people can be slightly better off.
In the past, the Hong Kong Government often talked about the intention to move towards "big market, small government" step by step in its governance, so it sold the shopping centres in public housing estates to The Link REIT and privatized the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL), then deposited the money so obtained into the coffers. However, the many examples in the past, including the privatization of the MTRCL and the listing of The Link REIT, all showed that the party ultimately standing to gain were consortia and investors, whereas ordinary members of the public became the victims. Therefore, even though the Government has a surplus, it should not reduce taxes and rates, nor should it reduce the profits tax or salaries tax of the extremely rich people, rather, it should assist members of the middle class who are the "three have-nots". The impoverishment of the middle class is being exacerbated, so the Government should study how to assist them, so that they can lead more comfortable lives, which is also acceptable to us. If the Government has a surplus, it should buy back The Link REIT and turn the MTRCL into a public organization.
In addition, I call on the Secretary to give $10,000 back to us and he should pay up quickly and stop looking around! I call on you to pay up quickly and give $10,000 back to each person. That the coffers are overflowing with money and the Government is bloated would only make the Government more corrupt. The expenditures for the five recent projects have been exceeded by $100 billion, equivalent to $14,000 for each member of the Hong Kong public. Therefore, may I trouble the Secretary to give us back the money immediately (The buzzer sounded) … give $10,000 back to us and pay up quickly …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, your speaking time is up.
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MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr Paul TSE for giving us a Christmas tree, so that other Members can hang their wishes on it as they like and as a result, nine Members have proposed amendments respectively. The mantra from Mr TSE is "reduce taxes across the board to return wealth to the people". I wish to make a declaration of interest. If taxes are reduced across the board, I will also have a monetary interest in it.
First, to look at a tax reduction from the economic point of view, obviously, this is an important measure under the fiscal policy. If the Government reduces taxes and increases its expenditures on the procurement of items and services, this is an expansionary fiscal policy and of course, the aim of this kind of policy is, generally speaking, to stimulate economic growth through macroeconomic adjustments and control measures. If I am not mistaken, this is what professors often teach their students. Mr Paul TSE's motion only talks about reducing taxes across the board and on hearing it, it seems that all parties would be happy. However, does he support increasing government expenditures? Although I listened to his speech throughout, I could not hear him express his support for increasing government expenditures or stimulating economic growth. He only said that the Government had wasted public funds in many areas. I heard him criticize the Government for wasting public funds and express his hope of boosting the popularity of the Government and the Chief Executive, but not stimulating the economy. It turns out that to Mr TSE, a tax reduction is not an economic issue but a political one.
Let us talk about the economic issue again. Many Honourable colleagues in the legislature say that we talk too much about politics instead of economics and that there is too little discussion on economic issues, so I may as well talk about the economy first. Although we know that these fiscal policies may not necessarily succeed in attaining their goals on each and every occasion, it is very important to identify the goal clearly. Otherwise, we are just talking for sake of saying things that all parties like to hear. A tax reduction is certainly what all parties like to hear, but would the Government really do so and after doing so, does anyone mean that it does not matter what positive or negative effects this would have on the Hong Kong economy as a whole and even to the personal interests of Hong Kong people?
Indeed, the fiscal reserves of the Hong Kong Government is abundant. In the past, what we all faulted the Government for was its failure to invest in the future, including education, the development of industries, scientific research and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3059 development, and so on. All these will not yield results within a short period of time but are precisely the long-term development and investment that Hong Kong lacks. Therefore, I support the Government increasing its recurrent expenditures appropriately. In recent years, Hong Kong constantly faces issues in education, healthcare, the development of industries and the creation of opportunities for upward mobility, and the Government has always been unwilling to make long-term commitments other than handing out "sweeteners" whenever it wants, or just establishing such and such a fund. Therefore, I think that it is not adequate or comprehensive enough for the motion to talk only about tax reduction but not government expenditures and investments. In terms of policy, it lacks direction, no different from handing out sweeteners. If its purpose is just to win popularity for the Government, this is by no means inappropriate.
In Hong Kong, the tax rates are low and the tax regime is simple. However, the tax base is small. Although many people do not fall into the tax net and there is no sales tax in Hong Kong, it does not mean that people who do not pay income tax also do not pay any tax. Many people believe that the high land prices in Hong Kong have pushed up the costs in various trades and industries and the prices of goods, so this is actually a type indirect tax charging a high rate. Therefore, I am afraid that simply reducing taxes across the board without giving consideration to government expenditures and investment and changing and expanding the tax base surely would not enable the public to share the fruits fairly and definitely cannot return wealth to the public fairly.
In the amendments proposed by various Members, it is evident that they have put forward several major ideas and I wish to discuss them with Members here. Both Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Mr Frederick FUNG mentioned the introduction of a progressive profits tax, but Miss CHAN Yuen-han and several Members also said just now that in her amendment, she wants enterprises which reap huge profits to bear greater social responsibility, yet she did not delete the words "across the board" in the words "reduce taxes across the board" in the original motion, so this makes me wonder what she actually wants. When asked if she supports reducing taxes across the board, will she express her support, and when asked if she supports a progressive profits tax, will she also express her support? However, this is contradictory. Mr Frederick FUNG is fairer in that he changed "reduce taxes across the board" to "review the tax regime", so at least, this is more consistent.
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As regards Mr Kenneth LEUNG's amendment, of course, I support it. He mentions "… to make the tax regime of Hong Kong fairer, more competitive and certain; the SAR Government should also optimize the fiscal surplus and avoid excessive wealth accumulation, so as to achieve the objective of leaving wealth with the people.". That means many of our demands for a review of the Inland Revenue Ordinance have been summed up and the goal is also very clear, so I support it. Mr Jeffrey LAM's amendment targets the burden borne by the middle class; Mr YIU Si-wing's amendment demands that studies on improving the tax regime be initiated; and Mr SIN Chung-kai's amendment proposes more specific measures to help the middle class and the grassroots; I support all of them. Mr Ronny TONG's amendment demands that the Government "… increase recurrent expenditure to address livelihood problems …", so a balance has been struck with the need to carry out a reform on government expenditures. For this reason, I will also support it.
However, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che's amendment demands that under the principle of "earning more, paying more", the Government discharge its responsibility of wealth redistribution. First, I do not entirely agree with carrying out wealth redistribution through fiscal policies because Hong Kong does not practise socialism, nor do I think that this is really the Government's responsibility. Instead, the Government should create more and fairer opportunities for upward mobility. Therefore, I am afraid I cannot support his amendment.
President, originally, I thought that no one could possibly oppose a tax reduction across the board, but the original motion lacks any consideration of the fiscal policy as a whole. In particular, given that it is intended only to help the Government win popularity, I cannot support it.
Thank you, President.
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): President, I believe the first idea comes to many Members' minds on seeing the motion which urges the Government to reduce taxes is that the Government is hoarding huge reserves and a surplus amounting to $1,300 billion. As we all know, the money comes from the fiscal reserves and investment income of the Exchange Fund. But now the money is deposited in the Treasury. According to the trends of the past seven or eight years, a new surplus will be accumulated every year. So, some people will ask: LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3061
Should the money be returned to the public? Mr Paul TSE's justifications for a tax reduction have precisely reflected the instant reaction of many people. But Mr Paul TSE has also mentioned his other views. I am not going to talk about them. Rather, I will consider this issue from the macro perspective.
On the other hand, many Honourable colleagues who are concerned about the development of society and problems faced by society have pointed out the need to provide a lot of services in the present-day society and the need to make a lot of long-term social investment. However, the Government often rejects their proposals on the ground of limited resources and argues that such limited resources should be put to proper use. So, the Government often haggles with us on the use of certain funds or how much money should be spent on certain projects. But healthcare and education have been ignored. Compared with the public expenditure as a percentage of GDP in developed countries, we have lagged behind in all respects. As a result, the elderly people are facing a poverty problem and even an inadequacy in medical services. As we all know, we have urged the Government to provide a drugs subsidy which, however has always become the subject of dispute. Many people have to purchase drugs at their own expense. The waiting time for specialist services is at least 10 months. How can such phenomena be acceptable in an advanced society? Furthermore, we are not facing a problem of insufficient financial means. On the contrary, as many Honourable colleagues have pointed out, the Treasury is "flooded" with money. So, the question is: Should we make good use of the money in the public coffers instead of accumulating so much surplus. This is the first problem. Therefore, the first point I wish to make is that improvement should be made to many services in society.
Secondly, we are facing the problem of an ageing population. We have to take care of the retirees and tackle the problem of an increasing medical expenditure due to the ageing population in the future. Planning is required for all these and reasonable reserves are needed and justifiable. Facing these two problems, we cannot support the hasty request for reducing taxes across the board.
President, as we all know, the tax policy or tax regime is based on a number of considerations. Revenues received from taxes are mainly for meeting the most basic government spending, such as the most fundamental service provision framework of the Government and the costs. There are many issues I wish to discuss. But I will not talk about government-funded services at this 3062 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 moment. Rather, expenditures that are essential to the operation of the Government, including infrastructure, should be accorded the first priority. This is the first category. As for the second category, some tax revenues will be used for the launch of some special social policies. Very often, the purpose of such taxes is not for generating revenue. Under environmental protection policies, for instance, the revenues will be used immediately so that the taxes are revenue neutral. In these areas, taxes are collected for achieving certain objectives. Thirdly, it is necessary to achieve long-term social objectives and in this connection consideration should be given to a reasonable degree of resources redistribution.
Just now, I mentioned that the long-term investment in society will involve redistribution of resources. Our values in respect of the long-term development of society are involved. Those short-sighted people will not make any long-term investment. Worse still, they may spend all the money which belongs to the next generation and even their posterity, thereby incurring heavy debts. This is certainly not the approach adopted by us and Hong Kong. But the problem is: After having accumulated so much money, we have not made any long-term social investment. We have not provided good education to the next generation so that they can have the opportunity to fully develop their potentials. We have not exerted efforts in environmental protection so that the next generation will not have to suffer stuffy air. All these should be our duties. Have we fulfilled our duties? Sorry, we have not. We leave the money in the Treasury instead of using it to achieve these objectives. We should feel sorry to the next generation. In fact, many environmental problems could have been tackled and resolved if we are willing to spend money. This is the first point. If we do not make the good use of our reserves, the interests of our next generation will be jeopardized. Although we do not spend the money of our next generation like other people do, we leave the money idle which should have been spent on environmental protection and education for the sustainable development of society. Secondly, a proper redistribution of resources will also lead to reasonable policy effects. For instance, some people argue that a capital gains tax should be introduced on the ground that property prices soar due to the authorities' incapability to control the land price. So, the introduction of a capital gains tax will have certain effect on controlling property prices, apart from generating revenue for the Government. This is worthy of discussion. But I must make it clear that there are divergent views on this issue in the Democratic Party. I personally agree with this proposal and think that it merits discussion. Some people simply call it "tax the rich" because the rich have too much money and should be taxed. Just like the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3063
"Buffett's tax", tax revenues from the rich are used for poverty alleviation. Some wealthy people do not mind paying more taxes since they are so affluent that they are able to pay the so-called wealth tax.
The Democratic Party has also proposed a progressive profits tax which can be revenue neutral too. For instance, the tax rates for large corporations can be raised while that for SMEs can be reduced. Different tax rates can be imposed on companies according to their sizes. In doing so, the social objective of helping SMEs can be achieved, in addition to achieving the effect of reasonable redistribution. (The buzzer sounded) … I hope Members will consider my suggestion.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, today we are going to discuss the Government's fiscal philosophy again. A total of nine amendments will be moved to the motion. We will support the amendments if they have pointed out that the present tax regime has lagged behind the needs of society and a comprehensive review should be conducted. For instance, we will support Mr Kenneth LEUNG's amendment. However, we will certainly oppose reducing taxes across the board because it is necessary for the Government to discharge its responsibility of wealth redistribution through taxation. When we have to deal with so many issues and the Government maintains that it does not have enough money, we will not agree to the adoption of such an extreme right-wing economic philosophy, that is, the hasty implementation of tax reduction to return wealth to the people as a means to solve those problems.
President, since the Treasury is "flooded" with money, we think the offer of tax concessions and widening the tax bands are measures worthy of consideration with the middle class as the main target beneficiaries in order to alleviate their financial burden. However, those who suffer the most in the community are not only the middle class but also the grass-roots people. Therefore, when discussing the public finances, the Labour Party will not only focus on the revenue or propose that tax concessions be provided to the middle class as a relief measure for the community. Instead, we will certainly examine the uses of tax revenue, such as how the money can be used to take care of the grassroots and the underprivileged and make investment for the future.
An Honourable colleague asked, "Isn't it a good idea to return wealth to the people?" We should understand that there are some responsibilities and problems which should be resolved and promoted by the joint efforts of society. 3064 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Take infrastructure as an example. If all taxes are waived by the Government to return wealth to the people, the Government will not have sufficient means to build barrier-free footbridges for the convenience of all citizens. Take the cash handout by the Government as an example. We had expressed our views to many taxi drivers: "What is the use of the $6,000 cash handout? It can only be used to pay for two months' fuel costs for you. The cash handout is not as helpful as providing additional filling stations or continuous concessions on LPG duty."
President, tax concessions or a cash handout for the purpose of returning wealth to the people is certainly a benefit for those who are not required to pay taxes or the payees of the money. But such benefit cannot be converted into benefit for the whole community. To promote education, infrastructure development and environmental protection, it is necessary to pool all the resources together through official mechanisms.
Over the past couple of months since the commencement of this Legislative Session, we have held a number of motion debates. It is estimated that $70 billion is needed to implement the proposals made in these motions. Should we discuss reducing taxes across the board at the present stage when a lot of money is needed for the implementation of so many proposals? There is a need to review the tax regime. While supporting the "earning more, paying more" principle, we also consider that the philosophy in public finances should be studied under the principle of investing for the future and caring for the underprivileged.
What should the Government do when the Treasury is "flooded" with cash? The answer is to make the best use of the surplus rather than providing tax concessions. The fact that the Treasury is "flooded" with cash has only reflected the lack of long-term planning by the Government. Money is meant not to be saved up. If I wish to save up my money, I will put it in my own pocket. Why should it be stored in the Treasury? The purpose of leaving the money in the Treasury is to facilitate proper planning of social services through relevant mechanisms. Take education as an example. A lot of measures have yet to be implemented in areas like university education, secondary education, primary education, early childhood education, pre-school education and special education. Although the Secretary for Education stated that resources in this aspect have been substantially increased, yet resources for this aspect in Hong Kong are still inadequate compared to that of Singapore, Japan and Taiwan.
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Besides, resources for healthcare service have shrunk recently. Many drugs which have significant efficacy are not included in the Hospital Authority's Drug Formulary. The Government has even stated that public spending cannot support the continuous development of the public healthcare system and it is therefore necessary to implement voluntary health insurance. Although the Treasury is "flooded" with money, the Government has transferred the commitments and responsibilities in healthcare and education to the individuals and families. It has shirked its responsibilities.
In addition, we have to deal with other problems such as environmental protection, universal retirement protection, assistance for the ethnic minorities and new immigrants to facilitate their integration in society, as well as support for the development of diversified economic activities so that new industries in their infancy stage can get appropriate support. All these need money. In view of this, we should discuss how to make the best use of the surplus in the public coffers rather than reducing taxes across the board. We have proposed time and again in this Council that the annual recurrent expenditure should be increased by $20 billion. It is because we have to make up for the shortfall due to the stringent austerity policy implemented during the period when Henry TANG and Antony LEUNG served as the Financial Secretary so that urgently needed social services can be launched.
Some Members said that a tax on dividend income will have the effect of double taxation. In fact, a tax on dividend income is implemented in many countries, including the United States and European countries which are the countries that Hong Kong has to catch up with. I would like to explain that even if a tax is levied on huge dividend income, if middle-class investors are holding shares with a value of $8 million to $10 million, earning an annual dividend of not more than $250,000, they will not be required to pay any tax for dividend income.
Here I would like to appeal to LI Ka-shing, who is fond of making donations to universities for setting up buildings for the medicine faculty or other purposes in exchange for his name being adopted as titles of those buildings in order to leave his name in history, to take the lead in supporting the tax on huge dividend income. If any tycoon supports the tax on huge dividend income in future, the tax will be named after him or her. If LI Ka-shing is the first tycoon supporting this tax, the tax should be called "LI Ka-shing's tax" so that he can leave his name in the SAR's history.
Thank you, President.
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MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, what is the result of an across-the-board tax reduction? The answer is: The people in poverty will more likely become even poorer compared with the rich. So, each and every one of us should oppose the motion because a society will become inhumane and crazy if the disparity between the rich and the poor should be worsening continually.
In fact, while Mr Paul TSE proposes this motion on tax reduction, the Gini Coefficient of Hong Kong has risen steadily and ranked top in the world. I have heard many Members' speeches and Mr James TIEN's speech is most insightful. He asked: Why should the Government increase the tax rates as it is so rich? Are we not talking about the election of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage? President, would you stand in the election of the next-term Chief Executive? Perhaps, you are not shameless enough and so, you should not run in the election. A Chief Executive, who is not too shameless, will promise what he will do within five years, or within the five years after being re-elected. We have had LEUNG Chun-ying, a big liar. Before he was elected as Chief Executive, his manifesto was full of promises such as how much money would be spent and how many residential units would be built on a lot of sites. When he had come to power, he said, "Sorry, I cannot get any land. I cannot get any money. I do not know that the world is full of difficulties."
Today, if the 69 slow-witted Members here prepare to run for the office of the Chief Executive, what promises will they make to Hong Kong people? If they have to plan for the next 10 years and there are more than $700 billion available at any time, or more than $2,000 billion for earning interest, will they make any financial planning? If each item of the reforms on education, healthcare, housing, transport and retirement protection will cost around $150 billion, the total budget will be $900 billion. Furthermore, the authorities said that our economy may not be stable. If the Government does not collect revenues from those who have gained wealth by engaging in speculative activities, property development or financial business, how can it implement its ambitious plans? Should it make promises like LEUNG Chun-ying did? LEUNG Chun-ying said in a casual manner, "I will give you heaven, but now there is only the hell at my place. If you do not mind, there is room for you." I wonder whether Mr James TIEN will run for the office of the Chief Executive.
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In an affluent society like Hong Kong, if we wish to launch a reform across the board, we have to ask how much money is needed in order to achieve the target of 60% or 70% of the students being enrolled in fully-subsidized or partially-subsidized degree places. This is the topic we discuss today. On the healthcare front, the Government appeals to the public to purchase health insurance. Having received little response, the Government has allocated $50 billion as an incentive which, however, is left idle. The Government is reluctant to implement a universal retirement protection scheme because it is not sustainable. The authorities said that the population is ageing. The elderly people are regular patrons of medical services, right? Regarding housing, the authorities said that it has to build 35 000 or 40 000 units a year. It is a very simple question: Does the Government have to spend money on the construction of residential units? If so, where does the money come from? If the Government does not rely on the high land price policy, how can it get money from those who have made handsome profits? In respect of transport, a buyback of the three tunnels and the MTR will need a large sum of money, not to mention that these facilities have to be operated and subsidization to be made, right? Regarding homes for the elderly, misery and suffering greet the eyes everywhere. Today, all those I met on the 5th floor are the victims. As I was wheelchair bound, they thought that I was one of the victims and aired their grievances to me. There are a lot of problems in areas like special education, homes for the elderly and residential care homes for people with disabilities. If these politicians really want to deal with such problems, money is certainly needed. However, the authorities will say that sustainability cannot be ensured if these services are provided with the existing fiscal reserves. As a result, it is necessary to announce tax increase. What will happen if taxes are raised? Needless to say, if universal suffrage is implemented, as the President said, those who are elected by the people will tackle the problems. If they are unable to resolve these problems, they have to step down.
Now, the problem is that we have to abide by the Basic Law. It is ridiculous when it comes to the Basic Law. The Mainland authorities are incessantly printing money. When quantitative easing is pursued in other countries, the Mainland does the same. No countries can impose any restriction on the Mainland. However, Hong Kong has to keep its expenditure within the limits of revenues, achieve a fiscal balance and avoid deficits. What the hell are you talking about? So, how come we are talking about politics? What is politics? It means to administer the country and benefit mankind. Therefore, economic issues also fall within politics. A regime can administer the country 3068 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 and benefit mankind? Buddy, I do not know what you are arguing. President, if I run for the office of the Chief Executive, I will certainly advocate tax increases. Buddy, it needs a lot of money to deal with the six issues I mentioned just now. We always underestimate the costs of a project. There is a cost overrun of $100 billion for the damned link from Hong Kong to the Mainland, which is constructed for facilitating the development of the counterpart which does not bother at all, right? Buddy, I really cannot figure it out.
If Hong Kong can become a society in which every person can enjoy benefits commensurate with the GDP, then the people will not be impoverished due to poverty caused by society. Now, one out of six belongs to this category of people. Buddy, the five people can save the remaining one. They should do so. When five people are rich while one person is starving, why does the Government not raise the tax? Anyone who can tell us how the money should be spent can propose a tax increase. But the authorities are unable to tell us. Regarding a universal retirement protection scheme for which I will resort to filibuster later, will the authorities allocate $50 billion? The answer is in the negative. The Government should allocate $200 billion for this purpose in order to ensure that this issue can be handled more properly. After $200 billion has been spent, taxes can be raised. The Government can even make it clear in advance.
Our position is very simple. The Government should make use of its public powers to redistribute the resources and wealth which have been distributed in society in an unfair manner so that everyone can enjoy the opportunity of development. This is the principle of social democracy. Will the authorities do so? I will run in the next election. LEUNG Chun-ying can contest with me if he has the courage to do so. On tax increases, LEUNG Chun-ying is "invincible in his words but powerless in his action", right? Those who do not know how to make use of the money in hand will certainly propose a tax deduction.(The buzzer sounded) …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, time is up.
MR CHAN KIN-POR (in Cantonese): President, regarding today's motion on reducing taxes across the board to return wealth to the people, I very much agree to the proposal of tax reduction. But in my opinion, apart from returning wealth LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3069 to the people, there is a more important purpose of tax reduction, that is, to stimulate the economy. One of the important proposals I submitted to the Government in relation to the policy address earlier is to stimulate the economy by reducing taxes.
In fact, I have always supported the notion of returning wealth to the people by tax reduction or tax concessions. However, to maintain a low tax environment in the long term, the Government has to expand revenue sources in order to compensate for the forgone revenues and pay the enormous public expenses. Otherwise, the implementation of tax reduction in this year is totally meaningless if taxes have to be raised a few years later. Nor is this a genuine measure of returning wealth to the people.
Today, some Members have proposed to wield the axe at the enterprises. This is like killing the goose that lays golden eggs. Undoubtedly, government revenue will increase in the short term, but Hong Kong will face a gradual capital drain and brain drain. As we all know, our competitors have cast covetous eyes on our capitals and talents. To tax our enterprises is tantamount to delivering the goose that lays golden eggs in Hong Kong to our competitors. In my opinion, it is better to take away the goose that lays golden eggs from other people. The most straightforward way to enhance Hong Kong's competitiveness and attract international investors to Hong Kong is to lower the profits tax rate.
To stimulate the economy by reducing taxes is a means commonly adopted in public finances. This is precisely an appropriate measure to restore the competitive edge of Hong Kong. Recently, this Council has held a number of discussions on Hong Kong's deteriorating competitiveness. Today, I wish to point out that it is the first and foremost important task for Hong Kong to enhance its competitiveness. If Hong Kong feels complacent, its status as an international financial centre will soon be taken away like its status as the world's first container port in the past. So, Hong Kong needs to enhance its competitiveness as soon as possible. Meanwhile, with the further deepening of economic reforms in the Mainland, Hong Kong will face increasingly fierce competition. A free trade area (FTA) has been set up in Shanghai. According to a media report in the Mainland, the Central Authorities will endorse the setting up of another FTA in Guangdong Province in the near future. Therefore, we must strive to engage in further co-operation with the Mainland and expand the 3070 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 scale of business in Hong Kong. Certainly, this requires collaboration in various aspects, including optimizing the local business environment.
In addition, there is a need to reduce taxes, which should be supported by financial and economic strength. Hong Kong has accumulated more than $700 billion in fiscal reserves. Coupled with a huge surplus in the Exchange Fund, the Government is hoarding more than $1,000 billion of assets, which is sufficient for the implementation of a tax reduction. As it will take a period of time before a tax reduction meant for stimulating the economy can bear fruit, a decrease in tax revenues is inevitable in the short term. So, a substantial amount of fiscal reserves will enable Hong Kong to implement a tax reduction.
Many people opine that a reduction in profits tax will only benefit big corporations. People with such a view are short-sighted for they fail to see the enormous long-term benefits that may be brought to the community. I can cite an example to illustrate this. Due to its rapid economic development in recent years, Singapore has surpassed Hong Kong in a lot of areas. Their success depends on collaboration in a wide range of aspects. But the Singaporean Government and many analysts believe that tax reduction can be said to be a very important factor in successfully stimulating the economy. In 1997, the corporate tax rate in Singapore was as high as 26%. However, in view of the changing economic environment, its corporate tax rate has been reduced in five phases to only 17% now which is close to the level of 16.5% in Hong Kong. Despite the substantial tax reduction, its revenue has been rising in an amazing rate. The GDP of Singapore over the same period has rapidly risen from S$146 billion to more than S$300 billion recently, representing an increase of more than 100%. There are certainly many factors contributing to its success, and tax reduction is just one of them. I believe if Hong Kong is willing to cut its profits tax rate, coupled with collaboration in other aspects, the gains will outweigh the losses.
In fact, reducing profits tax is the world's trend. Many Asian and even Western countries have reduced their corporate tax rates in recent years. For instance, the corporate tax rate in the United Kingdom, which was as high as 30% in 2008, was reduced to 23% this year. Like Singapore, the corporate tax rate in Taiwan has been reduced to 17% in a bid to catch up with our competitive advantage in low tax rates. In fact, we should have examined the feasibility of reducing taxes as a corresponding measure of maintaining Hong Kong's competitive edge. But unfortunately, we have not done so. We should be very clear that in the past many international companies chose to make investments in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3071
Hong Kong because of Hong Kong's advantage in low tax rates. There is really a serious doubt as to whether international investors will stay in Hong Kong in the future if such an important advantage gradually disappears.
Meanwhile, I have to mention that owing to the high rents in Hong Kong in recent years, investors have to pay exorbitant rents in disguise. Coupled with the fact that there are insufficient international school places in Hong Kong, our advantages have already been eroded. A tax reduction can relieve the tax burden on enterprises, thus restoring some of our advantages.
In addition, some examples in Hong Kong can show that tax reduction will help enhance competitiveness. Thanks to the abolition of estate duty in 2006, the business of combined asset management in Hong Kong has increased from $6,000 billion in 2006 to more than $12,000 billion of assets last year, enabling Hong Kong to gradually become an asset management centre. Another example is the abolition of wine duty in 2008. As a result, the annual import of wine has risen from around $2.8 billion to $8 billion last year, while Hong Kong has turned into a wine trading and distribution centre.
The Hong Kong Government is committed to promoting Hong Kong as a captive insurance and reinsurance centre. But relevant tax incentives have actually lagged behind that of Singapore. I hope the Government will conduct a review and spare no effort in enhancing Hong Kong's competitiveness.
I understand that whenever it comes to tax cuts, especially when profits tax reduction is proposed, many people will have worries. But we can follow the example of Singapore and adopt the approach of "groping one's way across the river" by making periodical adjustments to the policy in response to economic changes. It may even be launched as a three-year pilot scheme subject to review as appropriate. The policy should be subject to adjustment or even be scrapped if it cannot play a role in stimulating the economy or when only enterprises are benefited.
Today, I have spent most of the time on explaining why Hong Kong has to reduce profits tax. But as I said earlier, I also support reducing salaries tax. However, as society and a majority of Members in this Council support a reduction of salaries tax, I would rather spend a little more time on discussing the profits tax reduction in the hope that the Government and the community will 3072 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 understand that a lower profits tax rate will play a very important role in upgrading the competitiveness of Hong Kong.
I so submit.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): President, many Honourable colleagues have spoken their turns. The issue of tax regime had in fact been discussed for many times in the past. Instead, I am quite interested in today's topic which is quite special, that is, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che's amendment about the introduction of a tax on dividend income of significant amount. The concept of taxing dividend income is rather creative and I am interested in exploring it.
President, Mr CHEUNG's argument is founded on setting up a fair tax regime which adheres to the principle of "earning more, paying more". I believe there is still an implicit meaning. Different people have different incomes and those who have no jobs do not have salaries tax liability. On the operational level, dividend income is not profits taxable on a business entity. Under certain circumstances, of course, dividend income is regarded as profit of a business entity which is taxable. However, dividend income is more often not taxed. Some people, some enterprises, or tycoons or consortia as mentioned by Mr CHEUNG have received significant amounts of dividend income. In terms of fairness, should we introduce a tax on dividend income of significant amount?
President, this is a subject worthy of study, and I must state my position clearly from the outset. I am actually a bit surprised. Among those on whom a tax could be levied on their huge dividend income, a couple of them could be called tycoons. I believe they receive billions of dividend income every year. But when I happened to meet with one of them and chat with him, he said to me, "James TO, this is not fair. If some people only pay tax on significant dividend income but do not have to pay any other kinds of tax, it is not fair play." What he has told me is worthy of the Government's consideration.
I have read the amendment by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che which urges the Government to levy a tax on dividend income exceeding $250,000. I think the threshold is a bit low. Why? Some people may have $100 million of dividend income and it is not strange at all. If the threshold is set at $250,000 or $260,000 of dividend income, an extreme situation may arise. Imagine that a retired elderly has a couple of million dollars. He may use the money to purchase a flat and lease it to generate rental income. Rental income is subject LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3073 to property tax and the property is subject to depreciation. Instead of purchasing property, however, he chooses to buy such liquid assets as utility shares or HSBC shares to generate income. If he has a dividend income of around $20,000 monthly on which tax is levied … Of course, you may say that he has to pay property tax if he has purchased a flat which produces a rental income of $20,000 monthly. I can understand it.
The major premise is that you said that this is a new form of tax on dividend income of significant amount and that it could "stop coddling tycoons or consortia which pocket significant amounts of dividend." In my opinion, you cannot regard an elderly who has a couple of million dollars as a very rich person, although he may be one in the eyes of some people. Judging from the current standard of living in Hong Kong, he is not unless he moves to reside in other places out of Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, he may not be eligible for public housing due to past records. He may have to rent a flat and lives on the dividend income of somewhat over $20,000 each month. Can you treat him as a very rich person? I do not think he is a very rich man. Hence, from the practical perspective, I think the threshold of $250,000 is too low if we really want to introduce or consider implementing a tax on dividend income of significant amount.
Nevertheless, I know that many countries have such kind of tax and I need not name them out one by one. Different places represent different circumstances. If we are fairly and reasonably taxed according to different sources of income except this important part ― the annual dividend income for individuals or companies ― I will consider that the tax regime is unfair. Many people opine that it may even cause certain enterprises to alter their habits of dividend payout, resulting in a twisted situation or various kinds of possible circumstances. All in all, after an initial study of this concept, I think it is a topic worthy of consideration.
I have to reiterate that the Democratic Party has not formed any position in this respect and we, therefore, have allowed our Party members to express their individual opinions.
Finally, I wish to cut to the chase. When we buy a property for self-occupation, the interest incurred is tax deductible. I really think that monthly rent is also an item of expenditure. If a person does not even have the main body of assets, why is his monthly rental payment not tax deductible? The Government always insists that it will distort the market and cause rents to 3074 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 increase, but I think it is unfair. Therefore, I still think that rental payment should be tax deductible.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the original motion moved by Mr Paul TSE today proposes a tax reduction across the board and returning wealth to the people. This proposal appears to be reasonable and justified and is also the hope of the general public. However, I have some different opinions on this motion, particularly with regard to the words "across the board". If taxes are reduced across the board, this will surely give rise to many unfair situations. However, strange enough, the Members belonging to the Labour Party have proposed a tax increase today. Of course, regarding this type of tax, Mr James TO has voiced some of his views just now. However, if a tax is to be introduced despite the huge amount of surplus in the Government's possession, we can only talk about the hatred of the rich but not justice.
As we all know, at present, the annual revenue received by the Government through taxation amounted to $442.2 billion in 2012-2013 and it is estimated that it will amount to about $430 billion in 2013-2014. As regards the annual expenditure, take 2012-2013 as an example, it amounted to about $380.6 billion and this year, it is about $440 billion. At the same time, the surplus last year was $64.9 billion and that for this year is estimated to reach some $40 billion. Of course, the Government has not yet announced the figures but judging from the circumstances, there is great likelihood of there being a surplus. As regards the Exchange Fund, there will even be a surplus of $2,900 billion. These figures show that the fiscal situation of Hong Kong is very sound and that there is a surplus equivalent to 20 months of expenditure.
If a tax reduction across the board is proposed at this time, apparently, it would ease people's hardship. However, from the perspective of the change wrought to the tax regime, the picture is different. First, I believe that reducing taxes across the board is not in line with the spirit of the tax regime in Hong Kong. The tax regime in Hong Kong is known for its simplicity and low tax rates and it is also one of the powerful factors for the competitiveness possessed by us. In this regime, profits tax and salaries tax account for 40% of the total and the rest of the revenue, derived from land sales, stamp duty and incomes from other sources, accounts for about 60%. If taxes are reduced across the board, this would result in an unhealthy state of public finance. Reducing taxes across the board is neither reasonable nor justified, and it is not conducive to easing people's hardship either. Take the stamp duty, or Special Stamp Duty and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3075
Buyer's Stamp Duty as an example, all of them are levied to suppress soaring property prices to avoid an imbalance in supply and demand in the whole property market. There is no ground for reducing the betting duty, the liquor duty and the tobacco duty, is there? All these duties should continue to be levied according to the existing tax regime.
Second, a tax reduction across the board cannot achieve the goal of reasonable distribution of wealth either. The original intent of the tax regime is to make people with financial ability pay taxes, then redistribute the wealth through public finance, so as to achieve even distribution of wealth in society. If taxes are reduced across the board, it would only achieve the effect of an uneven distribution of the wealth. In that case, handing out money is more preferable than reducing taxes. Mr Paul TSE, perhaps you should propose a motion on handing out money across the board and I believe this would be even more practical. In particular, handing out money to needy socially disadvantaged groups would be even more effective.
Therefore, reducing taxes across the board would undermine Hong Kong's tax base, nor can doing so help needy poor people. In my opinion, if we want to achieve the aim of easing people's hardship, we can only do so from several angles and this is even more preferable than reducing taxes across the board. For example, at present, there is already a surplus of tens of billion dollars in the coffers, so can salaries tax and profits tax be reduced? This is because these two types of taxes only account for 40% of the revenue of the government coffers. If salaries tax can be reduced, this is really conducive to improving the living of wage earners. At the same time, reducing profits tax is also conducive to resolving the operational difficulties of some companies, in particular, SMEs.
In addition, I also propose that the Government provide proper support in education, so that through education, more people can have opportunities in becoming upwardly mobile. For this reason, education is also an important expenditure. This being so, it is preferable to establish a children's education fund, so that more people can receive better support in education. At the same time, I also propose the introduction of a "home rental allowance", so that greater assistance is provided to people being subjected to rental pressure.
President, I so submit.
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MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): President, the Treasury is flooded with money and this naturally makes many people think of tax reduction. But taxation involves public expenditure and services of the Government. It also involves the relative competitiveness of Hong Kong in competing with other regions and even adjustments between the rich and the poor and redistribution of wealth in society. When all these issues are taken into consideration, the question of whether taxes can be reduced across the board becomes extremely controversial.
It is imaginable that the overall taxation arrangements, be it tax reductions or concessions for any item of tax, will certainly touch the core of the entire philosophy of public finance in society and that is, how the levying of taxes by the Government and tax payment by the public can enable the effective administration of the Government to maintain at a reasonable level, thereby building a harmonious social environment where resources can be redistributed.
To answer the questions of whether taxation in Hong Kong is maintained at a reasonable level and whether it can help create a harmonious social environment, we need to review whether the existing taxation arrangements and public policies currently in force can sense the urgency of the people and think in the way the people think, and whether they can respond to the genuine needs of the public.
President, although I have taken up the office of a Member of this Council for only a year or so, I have, in this Chamber, repeatedly urged the Government to make good use of the fiscal reserves and surplus and make long-term planning for public policies, in order to help the grassroots and the middle class and to return wealth to the people, rather than casually giving out candies and acting like a miser.
On 20 March this year, this Council debated the motion on "Promoting Hong Kong's economic restructuring" proposed by Mr Martin LIAO. I proposed an amendment urging the Government to "restructure public finances and properly use budget surplus to increase recurrent expenditure to promote Hong Kong's economic restructuring, so as to alleviate social conflicts". My amendment was supported by a majority of colleagues and was passed in the end. This shows that Members all hold the view that we should use the fiscal surplus appropriately by substantially increasing the recurrent expenditure for such policy LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3077 areas as education, healthcare and social welfare, in order to demonstrate the Government's long-term commitment for public policies.
To achieve these objectives, the Government certainly cannot just rely on the various short-sighted and fragmented one-off measures of "giving out candies" every year. Rather, it should actively study ways to enhance the stability of the overall revenue of the Government and ensure that the Government can continuously channel resources to various public policies in times of an economic downturn.
President, taxation is just a tool, and improving the people's lot is the objective. About 40% of the working population in Hong Kong are salaries taxpayers, of whom a majority are in the middle class. However, the Government has provided very little support to the middle class over the years. While the middle-class people are paying a lot of taxes, some of them are moving downward and their living standard even compares unfavorably with some grass-roots people and thus become the "poor middle class". Over the years, the Government's budgets have only sought to ease the financial pressure of taxpayers through short-term tax reductions or concessions, but the implementation of public policies has been unsatisfactory, and this is the thrust of the problem. There has been great public discontent over issues relating to education, healthcare, social welfare, and environmental protection. Taxpayers cannot but ask: "We pay tax every year but the quality of our living has not improved. Social policies are riddled with problems. Our aspirations have not been answered in all areas while the Government is treating the people as enemy on all issues, refusing to listen to the voices of the people. Why do we still pay so much in tax?"
President, this leads to the questions that I have raised earlier on: Is taxation maintained at a reasonable level and are social policies satisfactory and capable of maintaining social harmony? Is there a reasonable balance between the two? Is it that co-ordination is already lacking to the extent that the tipping point is reached? The grievances of the people have continued to grow and intensify. There have been stronger and stronger voices expressing dissatisfaction with government policies and the acts of officials, and the Government is falling down the cliff of governance. Such being the case, the Government must set things right and take on board public opinions extensively and draw up fair taxation arrangements and reasonable social policies. Only in 3078 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 this way can the quality of governance be upgraded and the people's livelihood improved.
To this end, the Government must put the surplus to good use and make plans for long-term polices. It must substantially increase the recurrent expenditure for such policy areas as education, healthcare and social welfare while reviewing the tax regime of Hong Kong to make it fairer and more competitive, rather than skewing towards the major consortiums or real estate developers in the policies on taxation and real estate development. In redistributing resources, the Government should provide assistance to people in the lower and middle classes who are in need, so as to return wealth to the people and ensure that they are not subject to further exploitation.
President, in respect of taxation, I think it is indeed too inadequate to grant a child allowance of only $70,000 each for the first to the ninth child, and this cannot serve the purpose of encouraging people to give birth. In this connection, the Government must first substantially increase the child allowance to the extent that it will at least reach the level suggested by the Democratic Party, that is, $100,000 for each child. Moreover, the tax allowance for dependent parents is also on the low side and hence needs to be improved. Meanwhile, the Government has to alleviate the burden of retirement on the people by expeditiously introducing universal retirement protection and relaxing the restrictions of legal aid to allow the middle-class people to enjoy legal aid without being subject to harsh restrictions on their financial conditions.
Simply put, when the Treasury is flooded with money, the money should be put to good use. Tax reduction, disregarding the amount of reduction and the types of tax to be reduced, is an option. In parallel, the Government should seriously consider how the money in the Treasury can be brought into greater play in promoting the long-term development of Hong Kong. We should effectively utilize these resources to enhance public services, so as to enable the middle-class and grass-roots people to live a better life in Hong Kong.
MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): President, Mr Paul TSE's motion today demands a tax reduction across the board to return wealth to the people. In fact, does reducing taxes across the board mean that wealth can be returned to the people? I think the two issues are totally irrelevant. In particular, on reducing taxes across the board, Mr Paul TSE did not specify which types of tax LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3079 should be reduced and how they should be reduced. Of course, Members can discuss such matters. At present, Members have focused on talking about profits tax and salaries tax. Certainly, doing so can assist companies and wage earners but in fact, there are many other types of tax. For example, if the Special Stamp Duty and Buyer's Stamp Duty introduced recently can be reduced, I believe many people would applaud this move; if the petrol duty can be reduced, this will ease the operating costs of drivers; and if the liquor duty and tobacco duty can be reduced, smuggling activities will probably be reduced. Therefore, today, in discussing reducing taxes today, what taxes are we actually focusing on?
When it comes to tax reduction, some Honourable colleagues said that the tax regime had to be reviewed. The entire world knows that Hong Kong's tax regime is known for its simplicity, fairness and low tax rates and many countries or regions have also begun to follow Hong Kong's example by reducing taxes. If it is said that the tax regime should be reviewed, should we review whether or not such new taxes as progressive tax and capital gains tax should be introduced? Even if these new taxes are introduced, so what? The revenue of the Government will increase and having pocketed the money, does it mean that the Government would take it out and use it? The problem now is that although the Government has money in its pocket, it does not take the money out and use it. Moreover, if these new taxes are introduced, will this lead to a drop in the number of investors coming here to make investments? Will an increase result in a decrease? Members really have to think about it carefully.
As regards returning wealth to the public, the key lies in the fiscal management of the Government. A number of Honourable colleagues mentioned that the Government is now keeping the money without using it, so even imposing new taxes on businessmen and companies would not help. This is because in the final analysis, the problem lies in whether or not, after collecting taxes, the Government would take out the money and spend it. The outcome shows that the Government would not take the money out and use it. Moreover, a number of Honourable colleagues talked about wealth disparity. Companies should not assume the responsibility for this problem because they have already paid taxes, so this problem should be the responsibility of the Government.
The Government should study how to do a proper job of resource allocation, particularly given that Hong Kong is such an affluent society and the Government hoards over $2,000 billion. Such phenomena as cubicles, 3080 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
"sub-divided units" and elderly people scavenging for cardboards should not occur in Hong Kong. However, the Government is often worried about where the money would come from if recurrent expenditures become too large and its revenue decreases in future. However, we can see that the SAR Government has fiscal reserves totalling almost $3,000 billion and just an unremarkable return of 5% per year is required to obtain an investment income or income from dividend of $100 billion to $150 billion each year. Just now, a Member demanded that the tax on dividend income be introduced, but I think that it is only necessary to levy dividend tax on this organization known as the SAR Government to cope with any future increase in expenditure.
Just now, I said that we can have an investment return of $100 billion to $150 billion. We are not talking about using the capital of $3,000 billion. It is only necessary to use 50% of the return from investment to meet the expenditures on such areas as education, healthcare and poverty alleviation, as mentioned by various Members. Moreover, since profits tax and salaries tax only account for 40% of the total revenue of the Government, no matter by now much the tax rates are increased or decreased, I do not believe this would have any major effect on the overall revenue of the Government.
Therefore, since the SAR Government has saved such a lot of money nowadays, I wish to say to the Secretary that he does not have to worry about the Government overspending in the future or not being able to turn off the tap once it has turned up the tap. Hong Kong's foundation is so solid nowadays that it has become the envy of other countries and places. As regards returning wealth to the people, I call on the Government not to just consider increasing or reducing taxes but should make greater efforts in fiscal management.
President, I so submit.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): Several Members asked earlier why Miss CHAN Yuen-han's amendment does not delete the wordings "reduce taxes across the board" and opined that our amendment seems to have omitted this important point. However, I would like to tell Members that the motion proposed by Mr Paul TSE today is "reducing taxes across the board". In other words, if any amendment is passed, it will contain the wordings "reducing taxes across the board". So, it does not make any difference whether these wordings LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3081 are deleted or not. Nonetheless, Members have expressed their views and proposed additions or deletions to the motion. This is a fact.
Now back to Mr Paul TSE's motion. I certainly have to thank him for proposing this motion. I think everybody in the community will be happy on seeing those words regardless of whether they have to pay taxes or not. They are glad to see "reducing taxes across the board". But the problem is, as we all know, the tax regime serves a leverage function which aims at reducing or narrowing the gap between the rich and the poor. So, whether this machine can perfectly operate will have a significant impact on the stability and atmosphere of society as a whole. Of course, as many Honourable colleagues have mentioned, owing to the high inflation rate and soaring prices of goods and services, it is proposed that various allowances such as the salaries tax allowance, the child allowance or the dependent parent allowance be raised. I think Members will support these proposals and no one will oppose them. In addition, as it is not cheaper to rent a flat than paying mortgage, the FTU proposes that those who pay mortgage or rental should be entitled to a tax allowance in order to alleviate their burden of expenditure on housing.
On the other hand, Members have also proposed the introduction of a progressive profits tax and capital gains tax, which are opposed by the business sector. In the face of these two proposals, the business sector may oppose strongly. However, I would like to introduce to you a movie called In Time which was released two years ago. The title of the movie was translated as "潛 逃時空" when it was put on screen in Hong Kong. It is a story about a social system in which everyone has a life span of only some 26 years after birth. People have to earn life through work. For instance, if you work for one whole day today, you may earn one day's time. So, you can continue to survive. If you are not competitive enough and cannot earn life, then your life will come to an end. However, what is the moral of this story? It has reflected that those in power or businessmen are capable of manipulating the market or prices. In the film, one has to spend two hours in exchange for a cup of coffee today. But tomorrow, the consortium may raise the price to four hours or six hours of one's life. In other words, they are controlling the prices.
So, why do we always emphasize that those who are able to earn more should pay more? Because they get additional benefits or greater benefits through the social system. However, after getting such extra benefits, they do not contribute part of these benefits to society like other people do. When our 3082 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
SMEs have to pay profits tax at a rate of 16.5% every year, some large corporations, such as those with annual earnings of more than $10 billion, are also required to pay profits tax at 16.5% every year. In fact, they have to pay only $1.6 billion or 16.5% of $10 billion. If they are required to pay $1.7 billion or $1.8 billion, it makes little difference to a company earning $10 billion. The company will not make any changes to its strategy simply because of this amount of money. However, after receiving this extra hundred million dollars, the Government may put it into various uses. The Government said that there are lots of problems to be tackled such as alleviation of poverty, ageing population and wastes. In fact, to identify more sources of revenue is very important. So, that is why the FTU considers it necessary to increase the profits tax rate and implement a progressive profits tax system even though the difference is as small as 1% or 2%.
Certainly, the Government will point out that the competitiveness of Hong Kong will be adversely affected due to an increase of a few percentage points in the tax rates. But the question is: Does our competitiveness depend on the tax regime only? In fact, it also depends on such factors as Hong Kong's sound legal system and the geographical advantage of society as a whole. The profits tax rates in other Southeast Asian countries such as the Mainland, Japan, South Korea, which are 25%, 24.2% and 38% respectively, are much higher than 16.5% in Hong Kong. The difference is significant. I am not asking the Government to raise the profits tax rate to 24% or 25%. However, if the Government raises the progressive tax rate to 17% or 18% or even to 19% as the ceiling, what is the impact on Hong Kong's competitiveness? Hong Kong is still the city with the lowest tax rate. Why does the Government not consider this measure? Why does the Government totally rule it out? To whom does the Government want to offer help in its mind? How can we make use of the tax regime to help the grassroots to get rid of poverty? This is what I wish to say today.
In addition, a capital gains tax is another topic we wish to discuss. Certainly, we are very fair. If the property is self-occupied, the owner should not be required to pay capital gains tax even though he wants to sell the old flat for the purchase of a new one. However, if the owner is holding more than one residential flat for lease or speculation purpose, he should be required to pay capital gains tax upon the sale of the flat. This is very fair because the value of the property has been driven up by the economic growth of society as a whole. It is the community which has contributed to the value appreciation of that residential unit or property. The fact that the price of the residential unit or LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3083 property has gone up is not because of a sudden and alarming increase in the productivity of this residential unit. A residential unit itself is not a living thing and it cannot grow. Therefore, we propose to introduce a capital gains tax.
In respect of the tax on dividend income of significant amount, I think it is easy to understand. I think those who can receive dividend income of significant amount certainly lead a relatively affluent life and are definitely capable of paying the tax.
In conclusion, I hope the Government, apart from identifying new sources of revenue, can really make good use of the financial resources in hand to help those who are living in dire straits and resolve their livelihood problems. Certainly, these problems are numerous and different in nature. If the Government has the determination to make improvement, we will see the efforts it has made. I so submit. Thank you, President
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Paul TSE, you may now speak on the amendments. The speaking time limit is five minutes.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): As I do not have time left for me to respond to Members' views again later on, I wish to thank colleagues here for proposing amendments to and speaking on this motion. In fact, this motion is similar to the test of "Political Compass" reported in the press recently. I am referring to the test on http://www.politicalcompass.org/. This motion enables me to find out the views of colleagues and various political parties and groupings on taxation and serves as a very good touchstone.
After listening to my speech, several Members said that I am using this as an excuse for voicing my other views or there are innuendos behind the motion. But most Members might not have listened to my speech before they spoke on the motion or the amendments and therefore, they hold a very rigid view on the words "reducing taxes across the board" used in the title of the motion. I 3084 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 certainly do not mean an all-inclusive reduction; nor do I mean reducing all types of tax or reducing taxes in a broad-brush manner. In proposing to reduce taxes across the board, I mean we need to examine what kinds of tax should be reduced, whereas the rate of reduction and the way of redcution can be further considered. Take tax allowance as an example. A number of colleagues (such as Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Mr WONG Ting-kwong) all support an increase in tax allowance. This is also a kind of reduction. In proposing this motion, I hope to bring up this issue and use it as a touchstone and a platform.
President, I remember that you have moved the shortest motion in history, which is about opposing Taiwan independence, and this motion proposed by me contains similar wording. I hope to provide a platform for Members to express views on this issue. With regard to the wording of motions and amendments as well as Members' speeches in the Legislative Council, unlike statements made by lawyers in court, Members do not need to study each and every word used before deciding whether they agree with a proposal or not, or whether the proposal has gone too far. If colleagues put too much emphasis on the words "across the board" and make a decision on whether to support or oppose the motion on account of these words, I am afraid Members have got the wrong message. The meaning of the motion is only to enable Members to comment on the current tax items, economic policies, government fiscal management policies and even the governance of the Government.
I am grateful to a number of Members for highlighting the need to review the tax regime. Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr YIU Si-wing and Mr Kenneth LEUNG have put forward their views in this respect. However, in view of the massive surplus of the Government, I think it is out of step with the times to introduce a progressive profits tax, a tax on dividend income of significant amount or a capital gains tax to open up more sources of revenue. It is most important to draw up policies that suit the needs of the time. In view of the current situation of Hong Kong when the Government has amassed a huge surplus and the Government's popularity and credibility are low, it is absolutely inappropriate to increase taxes.
I thank Mr CHAN Kin-por for providing in his speech an analysis on the results of several tax reductions implemented over the years in Singapore, a competitor most similar to Hong Kong. Some Members raised the question: LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3085
"Where does the money come from?" In this connection, I must say that I have proposed to reduce taxes not purely because of the excessive fiscal surplus. My reason is actually premised on a slogan mentioned in a cosmetic advertisement on television. I think Members must have heard it before, and the ladies should know it even better. This slogan is "less is more". In respect of taxation, I think this slogan can apply. If taxes are reduced appropriately, it can actually achieve the effect of "less is more", just as the case of Singapore. I have proposed to reduce taxes not only because the Government has a huge fiscal surplus and tax reduction can stimulate the economy, but also because "less is more". A tax reduction can attract more overseas investors to Hong Kong. They originally may not wish to spend money investing in Hong Kong but with tax reductions, they may be willing to come to Hong Kong for investments. This motion proposed by me actually aims to put across this message. I think Mr CHAN Chi-chuen is the only one who was more attentive in listening to my speech, or Mr Charles Peter MOK has also listened to what I said, just that he catches only part of what I mean. I said this not because I wish that this motion can earn applauses for me; nor do I wish to win support from all members of the public, still less to lift the Government's popularity. Colleagues who have listened to my speech carefully should understand what I mean. If colleagues did not carefully listen to my speech or failed to understand what I said, I am afraid there is nothing I can do to help them.
Thank you, President.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I am most grateful to Members who have made many valuable suggestions on the motion on reducing taxes across the board. The suggestions made in Members' speeches could be regarded as multifarious, including raising various allowances for salaries taxpayers, adjustment of tax bands, modifying the profits tax regime, introduction of new tax items and implementation of relief measures. We will convey these suggestions to the Financial Secretary for his careful consideration in drawing up the budget for the next year. However, I would like to take this opportunity to continue on my emphasis on the long-term sustainability of public finances at the beginning of the debate, and state our stance from the perspective of public finances, management of government revenue as well as taxation policies and measures.
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Hong Kong is a small and open economy. Our economic development is invariably affected by external factors without exceptions. Therefore, we have to plan ahead and must not focus merely on the huge fiscal reserves we currently have and disregard the proven fiscal discipline hitherto. As a responsible Government, we will continue to adhere to the provisions under the Basic Law and carry out prudent financial management in drawing up the budget. Concurrent with the commitment to long-term spending, relief and concessionary measures will be adopted where necessary according to the economic environment of Hong Kong in order to ensure that limited resources are properly expended.
The model of free and open economic development is the cornerstone to our success and must be upheld. We have always maintained a simple tax regime with low tax rates, carefully controlled expenses and left most of the wealth in the hands of the market and the public. Entrepreneurs, investors and the general public are free to do business, make investments and undertake employment so that limited resources can be effectively utilized through the market.
I would like to point out that on the premise of fiscal prudence and the maintenance of low tax rates, the room allowed for various heads of or huge amount of tax concessions that the Government can provide is limited. A lot of friends from the business sector often cited tax incentives offered in other regions when making suggestions on tax concessions. The fact that most of these countries or regions can provide various kinds of concessions in direct taxes is due to the following reasons: firstly, the original tax rate is relatively high; and secondly, a large part of their tax revenue comes from indirect taxes such as goods and service tax. These are the reasons why there are bigger scopes for tax exemptions or concessions in direct taxes.
Indeed, Hong Kong's tax environment is recognized globally as one of the best. According to the Paying Taxes 2014, Hong Kong was ranked among the top in the world for the ease of paying taxes. Among the advanced economies, Hong Kong is also one of the places with the lowest total tax rate. These suggest that the tax regime in Hong Kong is a positive factor underpinning the competitiveness of Hong Kong enterprises. The actual figures accurately reflect this.
In the year of assessment 2011-2012, over 769 000 companies (about 90% of the total registered corporations) do not pay any profits tax and about 64% of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3087 our profits tax is contributed by the top 800 taxpaying corporations out of 94 900 corporations. Therefore, when considering the proposals on profits tax including the introduction of a progressive profits tax, we have to carefully examine whether the proposal will lead to an even narrower tax base and the revenue sources will come from a smaller number of corporations, thereby resulting in instability of tax revenue.
As regards salaries tax, we offer generous allowances and deductions. When compared with other countries or regions, the tax burden on the majority of people is not too heavy. In the year of assessment 2011-2012, of the 3.6 million working population, about 2 million need not pay any salaries tax. Of the 1.6 million who paid salaries tax, about 200 000 contributed 80% of the revenue from salaries tax.
However, as a responsible Government, we will never rest on our laurels. In order to ensure the ability to keep our tax regime abreast of the times, we will review the various tax measures in a timely manner and make appropriate adjustments in response to the changing economic and social circumstances. Over the past few years, it was well manifested by the abolition of hotel accommodation tax, the exemption of wine duty, profits tax exemption for offshore funds, abolition of estate duty and other tax measures.
On the other hand, we understand that the people face a great deal of pressure in housing, education and healthcare. We do not turn a deaf ear to the aspirations of the public. For example, in the 2012-2013 Budget published last year, the Government increased various allowances under salaries tax. As for the child allowance alone, we have adjusted it upwards for three consecutive years to reduce the financial burden of raising children on parents. Over the past few years, we have introduced a lot of relief measures in response to the prevailing economic environment so as to alleviate the pressure on people in living as long as the Government's financial situation permits.
To maintain a simple tax regime with low tax rates and uphold the public finance principle of allocating resources where they are required, we are committed to ensuring that the Government has steady income, and we made efforts to maintain tax revenues and chargeable incomes. For example, in the financial year 2007-2008, we changed the handling of investment incomes in the fiscal reserves, so that such revenues would be more stable and become a major source of government revenue. Moreover, we must faithfully implement the 3088 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
"user pays" principle. To this end, we have systematically conducted a phased review of various government fees and charges, especially those that have not been adjusted for many years, or those with excessively low cost recovery ratios, so that these fees and charges would not become subsidies which affect government revenues.
A Member has suggested that taxation measures such as a tax on dividend income of significant amount be introduced to solve social and economic problems of inequality. This proposal on the introduction of a dividend tax has also been discussed in society. I would like to point out that such a tax will involve the problem of double taxation. Why? Because profits tax is charged after deducting the company's expenses including salaries, which generally can be deducted from the earnings. However, dividends are not deductible. So, if a tax is levied on dividend income, a company has to pay profits tax on its earnings before paying tax on dividends. Thus, double taxation arises. Under such circumstance, the company can prefer not to pay out dividends in order to avoid the tax. Moreover, according to Hong Kong's territorial source principle of taxation, a tax on dividend income can only be charged on dividends distributed by Hong Kong companies. Investors can choose to invest in foreign companies or local companies which are also listed in foreign countries in order to avoid paying the tax on dividends. I have cited this example to explain that excessive reliance on the tax regime to deal with social problems such as wealth distribution will lead to a fundamental change in the tax regime or a need to overhaul the tax rates and the tax regime, including raising the tax rates and introducing other kinds of taxes. This will increase the tax burden on individuals and enterprises. It will also destroy the simple tax regime with low tax rates that we have been proud of, and adversely affect the competitiveness of Hong Kong as a small and open economy, thereby bringing a negative impact on our long-term economic development. As a result, the losses may outweigh the benefits.
Next, I would like to briefly discuss the use of fiscal reserves. In earlier discussions, there were lots of remarks which confused the Exchange Fund with fiscal reserves. Such arguments were heard many times in the Legislative Council in the past. I would like to point out that an objective discussion should be based on a correct understanding of figures. If someone said that Hong Kong has nearly $3,000 billion in the Exchange Fund as reserve and we can meet the expenses by relying on the interest income, this is very erroneous. It is because in the Exchange Fund, there is a figure of more than $2,000 billion, in which there is a figure about $1,300 billion which belongs to the monetary base. In LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3089 fact, this is the liability of the Exchange Fund. Therefore, the actual value of the net assets is far less than $2,000 billion or just more than $1,000 billion. In fact, income from the Exchange Fund, as I mentioned earlier, like income from the fiscal reserves, has been recorded annually and become the Government's recurrent expenditure. Certainly, I wish to make it clear that we do have fiscal reserves and it is necessary to discuss how to optimize the use of the fiscal reserves. The level of reserves reflects the Government's overall cash balances. Reserves are used to meet the daily operational expenses and public works projects, which also include specific funds that cannot be casually transferred, such as the Land Fund, the Lotteries Fund and the Disaster Relief Fund.
We must ensure that there are sufficient fiscal reserves to perform the major functions, which include strengthening the stability of Hong Kong dollar, serving as a buffer during economic downturns, coping with unfunded liabilities and committed expenditures, handling incomes from derivative investments, and meeting future needs, such as the challenges of an ageing population. Fiscal reserves are not inexhaustible, the Government therefore has the responsibility to strictly control spending and ensure financial sustainability. The crux of the fact that the United States and European countries have plunged into financial troubles in the wake of the financial crisis is precisely due to the lack of discipline in public finances for a long time and the over-expansion of recurrent expenditure. Ultimately, these countries have plunged into financial crises and their deficits have to be reduced through austerity. Hong Kong should learn a lesson from them and maintain effective financial management. Fiscal reserves should not be regarded as the ATM which can provide an endless stream of money.
President, in my response just now, I have explained the principle of prudent financial management abided by the Government and its philosophy of maintaining the long-term sustainability of public finances to cope with the challenges of our society in future. Today, I am glad to hear Members' valuable views. We will actively respond to the aspirations of society when considering the overall financial commitments, the use of resources and the promotion of economic development.
President, I so submit. Thank you.
3090 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): As Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Mr Frederick FUNG are not present, would Mr Kenneth LEUNG please move your amendment.
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr Paul TSE's motion be amended.
Mr Kenneth LEUNG moved the following amendment: (Translation)
"To add ", as the economic pattern in Hong Kong is changing," after "That"; and to delete "reduce taxes across the board to return wealth to the people" immediately before the full stop and substitute with "and comprehensively review the Inland Revenue Ordinance to make the tax regime of Hong Kong fairer, more competitive and certain; the SAR Government should also optimize the fiscal surplus and avoid excessive wealth accumulation, so as to achieve the objective of leaving wealth with the people"."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment, moved by Mr Kenneth LEUNG to Mr Paul TSE's motion, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr Paul TSE rose to claim a division.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3091
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Paul TSE has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for five minutes.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr James TO, Mr Abraham SHEK, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr POON Siu-ping, Mr TANG Ka-piu and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok voted for the amendment.
Mr Vincent FANG, Mr Frankie YICK and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted against the amendment.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted for the amendment.
3092 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Mr James TIEN voted against the amendment.
Mr Paul TSE abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 28 were present, 25 were in favour of the amendment and three against it; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 27 were present, 24 were in favour of the amendment, one against it and one abstained. Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was passed.
MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Reducing taxes across the board" or any amendments thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Andrew LEUNG be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3093
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion passed.
I order that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Reducing taxes across the board" or any amendments thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members have already been informed, as Mr Kenneth LEUNG's amendment has been passed, Mr Ronny TONG has withdrawn his amendment.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Jeffrey LAM, as the amendment of Mr Kenneth LEUNG has been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr Paul TSE's motion, as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, be further amended by my revised amendment.
Mr Jeffrey LAM moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG: (Translation)
"To add "; this Council also urges the SAR Government to introduce or increase tax allowances for education, healthcare, housing and maintaining children, so as to alleviate the financial burden of middle-class people" immediately before the full stop."
3094 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr Jeffrey LAM's amendment to Mr Paul TSE's motion as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
Mr Paul TSE rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Paul TSE has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr James TO, Mr Abraham SHEK, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Vincent FANG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3095
TANG Ka-piu , Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted for the amendment.
Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che and Mr POON Siu-ping abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Ronny TONG, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr James TIEN, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted for the amendment.
Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Cyd HO, Mr Paul TSE and Dr Fernando CHEUNG abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 28 were present, 26 were in favour of the amendment and two abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 27 were present, 22 were in favour of the amendment and four abstained. Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members have already been informed, as Mr Jeffrey LAM's amendment has been passed, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che has withdrawn his amendment.
3096 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YIU Si-wing, as the amendments of Mr Kenneth LEUNG and Mr Jeffrey LAM have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr Paul TSE's motion, as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG and Mr Jeffrey LAM, be further amended by my revised amendment.
Mr YIU Si-wing moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG and Mr Jeffrey LAM: (Translation)
"To add "; this Council also urges the SAR Government to initiate studies on improving the tax regime to increase the sources of financial revenue, and expeditiously roll out appropriate tax reduction measures" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr YIU Si-wing's amendment to Mr Paul TSE's motion as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG and Mr Jeffrey LAM be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3097
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SIN Chung-kai, as the amendments of Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr Paul TSE's motion, as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing, be further amended by my revised amendment.
Mr SIN Chung-kai moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing: (Translation)
"To add "; this Council also urges the SAR Government: (1) to increase the basic allowance for the salaries tax to $132,000 and increase the married person's allowance to $264,000; (2) to increase the first three amounts of the net chargeable income under the salaries tax to $50,000 each, and abolish the standard rate for the salaries tax, so that all members of the public pay their salaries tax according to the marginal tax rate, with its maximum rate at 17%; (3) to increase the child allowance (the first to ninth child) to $100,000 for each child; (4) to introduce 'tax deduction for residential rentals' to make expenditure on private residential rentals tax deductible, subject to an annual ceiling of $100,000 and offered on a reimbursement basis; (5) to introduce 'tax deduction for retirement protection savings' to make contributions to private retirement savings schemes and additional contributions to the Mandatory Provident Fund schemes tax deductible, subject to an annual ceiling of $20,000 and offered on a reimbursement basis; and (6) to introduce 'persons with disabilities allowance', with its amount of $66,000" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr SIN Chung-kai's amendment to Mr Paul TSE's motion as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing be passed.
3098 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr Paul TSE rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Paul TSE has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr James TO, Mr Frederick FUNG, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr Martin LIAO and Mr TANG Ka-piu voted for the amendment.
Mr Abraham SHEK, Mr Vincent FANG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted against the amendment.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3099
Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr YIU Si-wing and Mr POON Siu-ping abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Ronny TONG, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Dr Helena WONG voted for the amendment.
Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mrs Regina IP and Mr James TIEN voted against the amendment.
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Cyd HO, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Mr Paul TSE, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 28 were present, 12 were in favour of the amendment, nine against it and seven abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 27 were present, 14 were in favour of the amendment, three against it and nine abstained. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG Ting-kwong, as the amendments of Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
3100 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr Paul TSE's motion, as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing, be further amended by my revised amendment.
Mr WONG Ting-kwong moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing: (Translation)
"To add "; this Council also urges the SAR Government to reduce the salaries tax, profits tax and rates in the next financial year, and at the same time adjust the salaries tax regime, including widening the tax bands for the salaries tax and lowering the marginal rate" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr WONG Ting-kwong's amendment to Mr Paul TSE's motion as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr Paul TSE rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Paul TSE has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3101
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Abraham SHEK, Mr Vincent FANG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr POON Siu-ping, Mr TANG Ka-piu, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted for the amendment.
Mr James TO, Mr Frederick FUNG, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Dennis KWOK and Mr IP Kin-yuen voted against the amendment.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr James TIEN, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Miss Alice MAK, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted for the amendment.
Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Dr Kwok Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Dr Helena WONG voted against the amendment.
3102 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Mr Paul TSE abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 27 were present, 19 were in favour of the amendment and eight against it; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 27 were present, nine were in favour of the amendment, 16 against it and one abstained. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): As Mr Paul TSE has exhausted his speaking time, he cannot speak again in reply.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Paul TSE, as amended by Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr YIU Si-wing, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr Paul TSE rose to claim a division.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3103
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Paul TSE has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr James TO, Mr Abraham SHEK, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Vincent FANG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Starry LEE, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr TANG Ka-piu, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted for the motion as amended.
Mr POON Siu-ping abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr James TIEN, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Mr Kenneth CHAN, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted for the motion as amended.
3104 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Mr Gary FAN voted against the motion as amended.
Mr Paul TSE abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 27 were present, 26 were in favour of the motion as amended and one abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 27 were present, 24 were in favour of the motion as amended, one against it and one abstained. Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the motion as amended was passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): It is now 8.16 pm. The meeting shall continue until all the business on the Agenda has been disposed of.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Third Motion: Setting up a Commission on Children.
Members who wish to speak in this debate on the motion will please indicate their wish by pressing the "Request to Speak" button.
I will now call upon Dr Fernando CHEUNG to speak and move the motion.
(Members spoke in their seats)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will other Members please remain silent.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3105
SETTING UP A COMMISSION ON CHILDREN
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move my motion.
Today is the Universal Children's Day, so I have to revisit this issue. I moved a similar motion at this Council in 2007 and urged the Government to set up a commission on children, with the specific task of safeguarding the well-being of children, placing the greatest consideration on children's interests, monitoring and studying the allocation of resources and important decisions under public policies, so as to provide children with an avenue to voice their opinions. However, it is a great pity that after the passage of the motion ― it was supported by all political parties back then ― the Government has not responded positively to the motion at all.
Why is the issue revisited today? Over the years, both the United Nations and the Legislative Council, the highest representative of public opinions, have urged the Government to attach the greatest importance to children's interests, but the authorities have always refused to follow this direction. Since 2005, the United Nations' Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) has been observing how Hong Kong, a signatory, has implemented the Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention). The UNCRC expressed concern over the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR)'s failure to formulate a comprehensive and integrated action plan for the implementation of the Convention provisions, and said that Hong Kong did not establish an independent human rights organization with the specific task of dealing with children's rights issue back then. The UNCRC expressed regret over this and also encouraged Hong Kong to consider establishing a permanent organization, so that children's views could be reflected in deliberations on political and government affairs.
The UNCRC held another public hearing this September with regard to the situation and progress of the implementation of Convention in China, Macao and Hong Kong. The UNCRC issued a report in October, in which it reiterated its worries over the absence of a permanent organization in Hong Kong for monitoring children's rights and also indicated that it was aware that though a relevant motion was passed in the Legislative Council in 2007, Hong Kong had not taken any practical actions. It also urged Hong Kong to establish an organization at the national level for monitoring human rights in its No. 2 Report, 2002. It further proposed that the HKSAR should speedily establish a commission on children or an independent human rights organization with the 3106 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 explicit purpose of monitoring children's rights and the SAR should provide sufficient financial, manpower and technical resources.
(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MR ANDREW LEUNG, took the Chair)
Deputy President, it is quite obvious that the UNCRC has been monitoring how the Convention has been implemented in each signatory state and region, and it has pointed out in its published verdict that if Hong Kong were to comply with the provisions of the Convention, then a mechanism had to be set up as soon as possible, for monitoring the allocation of social resources under public policy from an independent and human rights perspective through a commission on children which places great emphasis on children's interests. Hong Kong society as a whole is simply an economic city, so what is the role of children in this city? They are only regarded as tools for "laying golden eggs", increasing the Gross National Product (GNP) and enlarging the size of the "pie" of our local economy. However, if colleagues take a look at our demographic policy, they can see that there is no children's perspective. At a time when the birth rate is low, children are only seen as an element which affects the GDP of Hong Kong. As such, the Government has encouraged people to give birth to more babies. What purpose will the babies serve after brith? They will help bosses to make money and create economic benefits and wealth. However, where will the wealth eventually end up? It will go into the pockets of the rich.
Over the years, the Government has turned a blind eye and a deaf ear by only establishing the Family Council and used it as a "shield". After my motion was passed by the Legislative Council in 2007, the Government actually established the Family Council to deal with family interest issues such as those of children. However, is that adequate? Since 2007, the Family Council has only conducted three meetings every year on average. What issues have been discussed? Only issues like the promotion of family core values and organization of "Happy Family Campaigns", but have children's rights issues ever been discussed? It was formally discussed for the first time only in August this year. And, why was it discussed? Because when several tens of organizations met with Daniel SHEK, Chairman of the Family Council, in April this year, we told him that we had been promoting the establishment of a mechanism to safeguard children's interests, but the Government only established the Family LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3107
Council and said that it would do a proper job in safeguarding children's interests. How did Daniel SHEK respond back then? He said: "What? Is there such a thing?" Do you not think that it is rather funny that the Chairman of the Family Council has never heard that the Council has such a responsibility? This Government has been using the Family Council as a pretext over the years for not establishing a commission on children, but it turns out that the Chairman of the Family Council has never heard that it has the responsibility to take care of children's interests. Therefore, this issue was placed on the agenda after our meeting with the Chairman of the Family Council in April, and given one casual discussion. Then, the Government said it would set up a Children's Rights Forum. And, how does this Forum work? The agenda of the Forum will be drawn up by the Government, which will decide when the Forum will be held, with no criteria set on the composition of members, and everything will be single-handedly orchestrated by the Government. It is like a briefing session on children policies which provides an opportunity for people to state their opinions, a one-off event which will disperse once it is over. It cannot even be regarded as an advisory framework, virtually not a mechanism which truly allows children to state their opinions and make an impact on policies. Three meetings have been held this year and the Government originally said that the Children's Rights Forum would be held in October, but I have been told by some young friends that the Forum was suddenly cancelled and they did not know when it would be held again. Can this be considered as a mechanism which protects children's rights? This is really laughable.
Currently, commissions on children or commissioners for children have been established in 70 countries and more than 200 regions over the world. The commissioners for children have a responsibility to review all important social policies, especially those which have direct impacts on children, such as education and medical policies which focus on problems faced by children with disabilities and children living in poverty, and to directly assess whether such policies are really focused on children's interests. At present, there are great disparities between the rich and the poor in the society of Hong Kong, and the poverty line drawn up by the Commission on Poverty has shown that the level of poverty is quite high in the community, for nearly 20% of the families in Hong Kong are poor, and the poverty rate of children between the age of zero and 14 is nearly 25%, meaning that one out of every four children between the age of zero and 14 are living in poverty.
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Children with disabilities will have special education needs after birth due to their disabilities. The Government's slogan of "early identification and early intervention" was discussed at the meeting of the Subcommittee on Integrated Education held this morning. Does the slogan work in reality? It works to no avail. The identification process alone requires a long waiting period and there is another waiting period between identification and intervention, and as a result, the majority of children will miss the golden opportunity between the age of zero and six for treatment. Most children will already be five years old after they have gone through the identification and waiting process, and will only benefit from the service for less than one year, hence the most opportune time and crucial stage for remedies and treatments will have already lapsed. Integrated education is really riddled with gaping wounds.
The Equal Opportunities Commission pointed out in its report that 20% of the principals, teachers and professionals were not in favour of introducing changes to physical facilities and teaching methods for the purpose of taking care of students with special education needs; 20% to 43% of the teachers were unwilling to accept students suffering from intellectual disabilities, attention deficiencies, hyper activeness and autism into ordinary classes. On the area of mental health, a doctor of the Hospital Authority admitted this morning that the situation was disastrous, and appointments at the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry have currently been scheduled to the end of 2015. Cases of bullying and corporal punishment have been very numerous in Special Education, and there are also problems of poor children with disabilities and crowded Special Education schools. As regards the so-called transport concessions we are talking about, children with disabilities aged from zero to 12 have still not been benefited. Even the basic right to survival of some children who are suffering from rare diseases is a problem for they are still begging the Government for medicines. According to the findings of a report commissioned by the Central Policy Unit and compiled by the University of Hong Kong, over the past 10 years, that is, from 2001 to 2010, the number of child abuse cases has increased by 87%, with more than 9 000 to almost 10 000 victims. What have we done in this regard?
On the issue of ethnic minorities, the UNCRC said in its report that we are practising apartheid, for more than half of the students in the so-called designated schools are ethnic minorities, so it is basically an apartheid education policy. The Government has also been procrastinating in drawing up a curriculum with Chinese as a second language, for nothing has been done so far despite the fact that the issue has been talked about for a long time. Chances where ethnic LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3109 minorities can further their education are miniscule. On the issue of child poverty, as I have said earlier, the poverty rate of Hong Kong ranks the first among advanced regions in the world. The findings of the report of Policy 21, University of Hong Kong, which was commissioned by the Government, revealed that 170 000 people in Hong Kong are living in "sub-divided units", among who about 12% are children aged between zero and 14, that is, more than 20 000 children are living in "sub-divided units". Faced with the numerous needs of refugee children, children with different sexual orientation and different cases of serious child abuses, is the Government committed to dealing with such problems?
For all of these resons, Deputy President, I hope that the SAR Government can seek redemption. This is already the second time the United Nations and this Council have urged the Government to immediately set up a commission on children.
I so submit.
Dr Fernando CHEUNG moved the following motion: (Translation)
"That at its meeting of 6 June 2007, the Legislative Council passed a Members' motion urging the Government to set up a commission on children to fulfill the obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, safeguard the well-being of children, and ensure that children's perspectives were fully taken into account in the process of formulating policies; subsequently, the Government only established the Family Council in response to the demands, but the Family Council does not focus on children's rights and well-being as its major areas of work; in this connection, this Council urges the Government to expeditiously set up a commission on children, so as to ensure that children's well-being and perspectives are fully taken into account in the process of formulating policies."
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Dr Fernando CHEUNG be passed.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Two Members wish to move amendments to this motion. This Council will now proceed to a joint debate on the motion and the two amendments. 3110 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
I will first call upon Mr Kenneth CHAN to speak, to be followed by Ms Claudia MO; but they may not move amendments at this stage.
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I would like to thank Dr Fernando CHEUNG for moving this meaningful motion tonight, the main purpose of which is to set up a commission on children. I must also extend my thanks to another person, a young friend, HUI Tsz-ki who gave us her comic strips. She has a dream, which is to become a cartoonist.
Dr Fernando CHEUNG said earlier that this Council had held a debate on this motion on 8 June 2007, and as the motion was non-controversial, it was unanimously passed by all political parties. Everyone was very happy on that night, as reflected in the opening speech of Dr Fernando CHEUNG on that night which went like this: "President, it has been an exceedingly long meeting. We have now come to another motion. I hope this motion can bring this Council some laughter and a more promising hope too".
However, we have waited six years, and I do not know whether Dr Fernando CHEUNG will feel a bit like sobbing and have a sense of sadness when he review the Record of Proceedings of that meeting? However, I cannot help but ask whether we have used our time and public resources effectively now that six years have passed? If the Secretary has reviewed the debate which was conducted on this motion and opinions expressed by Members back then, I do not know what will be his specific response and how he will respond to Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion and my amendment later in his reply.
Deputy President, Hong Kong people below the age of 18 have become increasingly interested in public affairs and hope that they will be able to speak actively and act in concert with the development of the Hong Kong community by expressing their opinions. Article 13 of the United Nations' Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) aims to protect children's freedom of expression; Article 14 protects their freedom of thought; and Article 15 protects their freedom of association. Does the Hong Kong Government respect such freedom? Has it complied with the provisions on freedoms as stated in the Convention? Looking back at the incident which students of the Scholarism were carried away by some mysterious persons during the Flag Raising Ceremony on 1 October, none of the government departments claimed LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3111 responsibility, the police said that they had nothing to do with them; the Leisure and Cultural Services Department said it was not involved; and the management company for the venue also said that it had nothing to do with them. Then, what exactly happened?
This past Saturday, a group of enthusiastic students were stonewalled by several defence lines made up of policemen when what they wanted was only to hand the Chief Executive a letter. And, some members of Scholarism were surrounded by several tens of policemen when they dined in the canteen of Radio Television Hong Kong. What was so scary about them? Does the Government want to push these young people to the opposition side? Does Hong Kong society has any in-depth understanding of children's rights of participation, freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of association? Do various Government departments have any in-depth understanding of these aspects? How many secondary schools have still not allowed students to form student unions?
Deputy President, some members of the public still said to me on the streets that: "do not use child labour for it is illegal" when they met my children, who participated in my election campaign when I ran in the election last year. My children were helping me with my election campaign and they were not child labour. However, there were also people who came over to tell me that I should not let my children appear in the public. It was a very positive and active civic education process, but some people in the community of Hong Kong are still unaware of these important children's rights. These rights are also fully guaranteed by the United Nations' Convention which has been implemented in Hong Kong since 1994.
Given the lack of social awareness of such children's rights or interests, I think that it is really necessary for us to move this motion again today, to demand the establishment of a commission on children in accordance with the recommendations of the United Nations, in order to implement policy ideas with the help of policies and resources, so as to allow children to truly enjoy the rights to survival, protection and development and take part in deliberations, which are guaranteed by the Convention. We will endeavor to ensure that children's rights are implemented and safeguarded. As such, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) has time and again recommended that Hong Kong should set up a commission on children, which will have adequate 3112 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 financial, manpower and technical resources, so as to monitor the work of the Hong Kong Government in this area under clear guidelines and to guarantee that children will enjoy various rights. This is most reasonable and natural. According to statistics provided by non-government organizations, more than 70 countries and 200 places in the world have set up commissions on children or appointed commissioners for children.
As Dr Fernando CHEUNG has said, the UNCRC recently conducted a hearing on 26 September 2013 at Geneva, Switzerland, to deliberate on how Hong Kong had performed in complying with the provisions of the Convention. The UNCRC asked the SAR Government again why the commission on children which has social consensus and support, and requested by all political parties of the Legislative Council, has been so slow in formation and why has it not yet been established?
I have gone over the response of the Government and found that it was very ridiculous. First of all, the Government said that the Convention covers different areas which fall under the jurisdiction of various Policy Bureaux, and these Policy Bureaux are assisted by their own advisory bodies and non-governmental organizations in the planning and policy-making process. The Government also said that such arrangements would be helpful to making flexible and rapid responses to changing circumstances and issues which the public are concerned about, and it referred to the Family Council again and said that its advisory function would be further enhanced. Lastly, the Government excused itself again by saying that the Children's Rights Forum which has been held since 2005 has shown concern for children's rights and allowed the representatives of relevant organizations and children to participate.
Firstly, as a matter of fact, which government policy is not promoted under the division of labour and combined efforts of various government departments? Which government policy is not handled with flexibility in response to public requests? However, if the Government is really determined to do something, as in the case of the Long-term Housing Strategy Steering Committee, the Committee for Economic Development and the Commission on Strategic Development, there are naturally ways to deal with certain strategic issues in a focused manner. If the Government really wants to protect children's rights, then it will utilize resources and spend time and energy on setting up a commission on children. However, the Government has done nothing for six LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3113 years, which means that it has remained unconcerned for six years, and the fact that it has refused to do so now also reflects its continual lack of concern. Is that the attitude it should have assumed to show that great importance has been attached to the voice, freedom and rights of children? I find this attitude of the Government unacceptable.
Secondly, as regards the Family Council, Dr Fernando CHEUNG has been right in saying earlier that if the work of the Family Council has to be quantified, then I would like to ask, how much time has the Council spent on discussing children issues and rights, and how the Convention has been implemented in Hong Kong? Can the Secretary give me an answer in quantified terms, so as to prove that the Family Council has already taken such responsibilities into account? I believe you cannot give me an answer.
Thirdly, on the Children's Rights Forum, its inadequacies were, in fact, pointed at the recent meeting of the Panel on Constitutional Affairs: inadequate representation, for many Hong Kong children have never heard about the Forum and children from families of disadvantaged groups simply do not know how they can participate in the Forum. The Forum is not held regularly, sometimes it is held once a year; sometimes thrice a year; and sometimes twice a year. And, very difficult and complex languages are always used top-down during consultations and at the meetings. Many children who have attended the meetings do not know what was being discussed, for only long speeches were made, and people did not really wish to listen to their opinions. Finally, these activities ― I call them activities ― certainly do not have any legislative effect on urging the Government to change certain existing policies or actions which do not offer adequate protection for children's rights.
We can refer to the experiences of other places in the world, such as England, Scotland, Ireland and North Ireland in the United Kingdom which have each appointed commissioners for children, and the commissioners of the four places have formed a coalition and network to conduct joint discussions on how experiences can be shared and policy changes promoted. All these experiences are worthy reference for us.
Deputy President, I have proposed in my amendment, in particular, that annual summits should be held, so as to encourage and provide children with opportunities of real participation and let them feel that they can influence 3114 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 government policies. This Sunday, I am invited by the organizing committee of the Children's Council to attend a meeting of the Council. Their first motion which urges the Government to protect children's rights on participation in political activities is very meaningful.
I hope that, like the activity I am attending this Sunday, these summits will be be held annually, and children who participate in the summits can actually be allowed to influence government policies which are inadequate and change the Government's existing mentality and old mindset. We can no longer say that children are naïve and do not know how to express themselves. The kindergarten, primary and secondary students who I met at the meeting every week have all indicated that they would like to become Chief Executives and Legislative Council Members in the future.
With these remarks, Deputy President, I support Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I am not going to indulge in eloquent empty talk, but would only like to remind everyone that we all have been young once and have all gone through growing pains, many of which are related to school education. Do we have to die if we fail? How should we deal with our mothers if we failed to be promoted to a higher form? With regard to such pains, now that we have grown up, many people will say that we cannot bear to see children suffer.
Hong Kong is not unique in the area of education, but there are really too many "monster parents". However, no parents are born "monster parents", for they have only been forced to become one. All parents want their children to have outstanding academic achievements, and most importantly to have good English language skills, so no matter whether they choose to study arts or science subjects or want to become artists or scientists, they will have plenty of opportunities, as long as their English is good.
Our children have grown up in such an environment in Hong Kong. If we are honest to ourselves, then it is understandable that the first thing people who have children will do is to make arrangements for them to attend English kindergartens, English primary and then English secondary schools. Those who are better-off will plan to send their children abroad to boarding schools when LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3115 they are 14 or 15 years old, while those who cannot afford to do so or unwilling to part with their children yet, will definitely send their children abroad when they attend universities. Therefore, their children must know English and their English must be good. As such, the process of learning English will leave behind a very big, profound and dark shadow in the childhood memories of many Hong Kong children.
Certainly, the issue of children benefits which we are now talking about involves many levels. However, to families which do not have any problems with basic daily necessities in general, the general concern of parents is their children's education, of which their greatest concern is that their children should learn their English good. Deputy President, why should the issue of how many less places will 70% of the English Government and grant schools be allocating to students make such big headlines in the news? Because this is really big news and we cannot blame the newspapers for this is really worrying.
A "monster parent" has indicated that he himself does not want to behave in such a manner, but his seven-year old daughter who is in Primary Two, is already required to write words like "announcement", "security guard" and "sportswear" from memory. Though the children do not understand why there is an "s" in the word "sportswear", they are still forced to write the word from memory. I have written down what the parent has said, the gist of which is a seven-year old girl is required to recite these English words without understanding their meanings, so how can she deal with this situation? The parent has written down his statement in English, so please allow me to quote him: "I really don't want to be a monster parent but I have no choice. She (his daughter) is studying in a local school. "
My amendment to the motion is related to the education policy, but I see that none of the government officials, specifically those in charge of education policies, are now present to make a reply. It does not matter. The authorities may say that my amendment has emphasized that children mainly learn grammar when they learn English nowadays, but the Education Bureau has actually not done so. I can guess how they will respond. They will say that the schools are very keyed up and they are forced by the schools. And, why are the schools so keyed up? Because parents are keyed up? So, why are parents keyed up? Because this society is full of competition and we have to catch up with other people. Let us be honest about this, the rankings and reputations of all schools in Hong Kong are linked to whether English is taught well in the schools, they are prestigious, or their academic results are good, and we are all aware of this. The 3116 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 parent said his daughter is studying in a local school. Children who are more intelligent, or more importantly, richer can enroll in Direct Subsidy Schools, whereas those who have connections can enroll in international schools. However, to the middle-class families which do not have any intention of sending their children abroad for studies, should the local schools really force children in such a manner and then place the blame on parents and say that they are "monster parents" who subject their children to the same nightmare every day?
This is especially true when the schools' reputation is linked to their performance in the primary school Territory-wide System Assessment (TSA). A primary school English language teacher, who I know, has personally complained to me that they have been asked to drill students in sentences like "I have a pen, I am a boy", every day for the sake of the school's reputation. As long as something is covered by the TSA, students will be drilled, and as a result, all the English which children have managed to learn are repetitive and meaningless sentences. One really has to sit down and cry. What is most surprising is that the English standard of Primary Six students of elite schools does often turn out to be higher than that of Form Five students in Hong Kong, so what kind of education system is this? The fact is, the part of the Education Bureau's curriculum on teaching grammar requires teachers to use technical terms like "connective" in teaching conjunctions such as "and" and "or", but who will be able to understand such terms? What is it all about? Languages are alive, but they are forced to be taught rigidly.
I also teach English and find that too many children will say English sentences like "There has a park", which should be "There is a park", right? Why have they done so? It is because they have translated the Chinese sentence "那裏有一個公園" into "There has a park", but teachers do not have the time to correct the students, for they are exposed to this kind of English, which only requires continuous mechanical application of grammar and relies on forced memories, every day.
The situation of secondary school students is even more terrifying for too many students have indicated that they are most scared about or their worst nightmare is English, because not only the schools, but also their parents are too keyed up about this subject. They can tell their parents that they do not plan to become scientists if their academic results in mathematics, physics and chemistry are not good, and it will be no big deal; but if their English is not good, then it will be like an original sin. Why is English so difficult to learn? It is also attributable to the same problem of grammar. Everyone will definitely be given LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3117 a big fright if they venture to download some information from the website of the Education Bureau to have a look. Why should one be required to explain the meaning of "modal", when they teach English and what is the purpose for doing so? It turns out that it refers to words like "can, could, may, or might". Why should certain grammatical terms be mechanically applied to scare the children? In short, English is expected to be taught like "fill in the banks" and this is absolutely meaningless.
I mentioned just now that Primary Two students are required to spell words like "announcement" in dictations, but will the situation improve in secondary schools? No, it will not. The Diploma of Secondary Education (DSE) English language examination paper of a certain year is really very scary. It was on an article about terracotta from the National Geographic, and I have copied some vocabularies from the article, but I cannot remember where I have placed them. However, I remember that there are words like "incongruity, hedonism and equivocate", and a word which is quite unimaginable "admonitory". How many people will know this word? Now, how many people will know the word when it appears out of the blue? However, this gave teachers a big fright when they found out about it, and they had to make their curriculum more difficult in order to catch up. How can teachers be blamed when examinations held by the Hong Kong Examination and Assessment Authority take this form? Teachers then pass the blame onto parents and parents have to put pressure on their children, but parents really do not want to treat their own children in such a manner.
I have seen another more terrifying sample, the first question of which was "What is the meaning of a mug's game?". Who among us here now knows the meaning of "a mug's game". This is how they kill our children's interest in learning languages and a commission on children can really help in that it will allow the children themselves to express (The buzzer sounded) …
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms MO, speaking time is up.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): Thank you.
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SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Deputy President, Dr Fernando CHEUNG has moved a motion on the rights and well-being of children today. First of all, I would like to say that the colleagues from my Policy Bureau and the Education Bureau as well as Mr YIP are present, and they will listen to Members' views on education.
Deputy President, I wish to emphasize that the SAR Government has always been committed to promoting the rights of children and fulfilling the obligations under the United Nations (UN) Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention). According to the provisions of the Convention, we submitted the first report to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) in 2003 and attended the hearing on the report in 2005. As per the provisions of the Convention, we submitted the second report to the UNCRC in 2010, comprehensively responding to the concluding observations of the UNCRC on the first report, and providing detailed information on the major progress made by the HKSAR in ensuring children's rights and well-being since the first scrutiny. The UNCRC examined the report at the hearing held on 26 and 27 September 2013. We have given our initial response to the concluding observations of the UNCRC and listened to the views of members and interested parties on the issues at the meeting of the Panel on Constitutional Affairs of the Legislative Council on 18 November.
Deputy President, we understand the purpose of the motion is premised on the hope that the Government should safeguard the well-being of children and ensure that the views and interests of children will be fully considered in the formulation of policies. In fact, the SAR Government has always attached great importance to the well-being of children. Pinpointing the development needs of children of different ages and backgrounds, the relevant Policy Bureaux and departments have clear policies in many areas such as healthcare, education and welfare, to assist in the all-round development of children, and they have set aside the resources required to provide the relevant services. We also strive to provide children with family-oriented care, so that children can grow up in a loving family environment.
The SAR Government welcomes the community's views on how to further improve the well-being of children, and the relevant Policy Bureaux and departments will consider the feasibility of the proposal in light of the actual circumstances.
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Deputy President, I will make another response after listening to Members' speeches. Thank you, Deputy President.
MS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I rise to speak in support of Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion and express my appreciation and applause for his tenacity. The reason is that a relevant motion was proposed and passed a few years ago, and I believe this motion will be passed tonight, but someone has remained stubborn.
Someone had the courage to recount the number of times they had been to the United Nations conferences. In September, I attended one along with representatives from various groups, and learnt of the great dissatisfaction expressed with the authorities. I am not sure if Undersecretary LAU Kong-wah has passed the message along afterwards. Would he please read the report carefully? It is full of remarks of regrets or dissatisfaction, particularly when it comes to the commission for children that Dr CHEUNG proposed today. The United Nations has called for its establishment by the Administration over countless years, but the latter has turned a deaf ear, and knows only to recount measures this and that, like the setting up of the Family Council, and so on. As many people and Dr Fernando CHEUNG put, all these fail to gauge if the authorities have undertaken the roles as required under the Convention. Of course, I wish that I am wrong. Yet, even if the motion is passed tonight, I believe the authorities will remain as they are, and everything will remain the same in the United Nations conference to be attended a few years from now. How pathetic will that be? So, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, children's rights may also need to be fought for through an "Occupy Central" approach.
"Occupy Central" must have touched a raw nerve with many, so I just suggest it as a probable alternative. Otherwise, how can one as gentle as Dr Fernando CHEUNG achieve the goal? Nevertheless, we are not to stage a revolution. In the United Nations conference I attended, I highlighted the problems faced by disadvantaged children. This morning, a number of people from a disadvantaged children's group gathered outside, and I promised to read out their name, Hong Chi Morninghill School, Tuen Mun. Their premises is dilapidated and crowded, and they have to share it with another school. Years of calls for redevelopment or conversion of the school, with some made at the door of this Council, went unanswered. Today, I urge them to shout aloud, since a voice too small will be regarded as non-existent.
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What is the aspiration of the school? What they want is a spacious premises complete with their own sports ground, hall, parent resources room, activity rooms, and so on, where students can have more space and comprehensive facilities to learn and grow up. If the United Nations happened to learn of their demands, they would not help laughing, thinking that we were in a fourth world country. Should those humble demands not be taken as the standard for the nearly a thousand schools in Hong Kong? As I have reiterated over the past 10 years or so, countless schools for the mentally or physically handicapped or those with other problems in Hong Kong are in the state of a human purgatory. That may be the legacy of the British people, but the SAR Government is reluctant to tackle it. Despite boasting a reserve of a hundred billion dollars or so, it just does not build schools with better conditions.
There was another group of people gathering outside this morning under the banner of the Society for Community Organization to express their concerns related to children in poverty. As they pointed out, among the more than a million children aged below 18 in Hong Kong now, how many live in poverty? The answer is 273 000 or so, among which 92 000 are Comprehensive Social Security Assistance recipients. One may claim that Hong Kong is the world's most affluent city, yet some of its people are sinisterly rich, while some are so poor that they have to live in places like "sub-divided units" and caged homes. When public officers attending the United Nations conference were asked how children grew in such an environment, LAU Kong-wah said there were needs to find land and seek District Councils' consent. Nevertheless, those controlling Hong Kong's 18 District Councils are all not present here. With a poor school environment coupled with the need to eat and do homework in the same bed at home, what kind of society is it? Any claim of being an international metropolis will only add fuel to anger.
In addition, there are problems regarding the ethnic minorities. Last Sunday, a group of ethnic minorities children gathered outside the Central Government Offices, even though you all might not like to see it there. They were all well groomed in colorful clothes, but language was exactly the point they did not click. A committee under the United Nations has also queried why the problem has got tangled up for so many years without a solution. It lies squarely in our education system. Given the wealth of Hong Kong as well as its huge stock of capable teachers and excellent schools, why is there still not a way to make the ethnic minorities biliterate and trilingual? Are we really incapable of doing so? Are children from some countries who are proficient in as many as LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3121 six languages particularly gifted? The difference lies in the fact that people there teach with heart.
Therefore, Deputy President, we must support Dr Fernando CHEUNG today. The motion is also set to pass, but sorry, I have to prophesize as I did before. Either the Government proves me wrong, or, in my view, the situation will remain the same a few years from now in spite of the motion's passage. The SAR Government is terribly awful. For a matter that merely involves the input of resources and heart, why is it handled so badly? Is the Administration not duty-bound to work for the well-being of these hundreds of thousands of children, such that they will not lose at the starting line?
The Education Bureau is the party most significantly involved in this aspect of work, but it has not sent anyone here. Last time, when I raised an oral question in this Council after coming back from the United Nations conference, the Bureau also did not send anyone here. If public officers are absent even though they are aware of the need to answer questions here, how are Members convinced that the SAR Government is sincere in getting the job done? The Government may surmise that children neither know "Occupy Central" nor stage large demonstrations, but this is not the point here. If the Administration really refuses a toast only to be forced to drink a forfeit, even the kindhearted Buddha will get angry. Of course, we will not encourage children to speak foul language nor resort to violence, but we will encourage them as well as their parents and supporters to stand up on a united front. We will not let everything remain the same and keep idling away the time years after the passage of Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion to allow many a child to lose at the starting line, which is totally intolerable.
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the rights to play and leisure are the rights that children are born to enjoy. In paragraph 76 of the report, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) stated that the competitive nature of the school system caused children's anxiety and depression and infringed upon their rights to play and leisure. As a matter of fact, the competitive nature of the school is partly caused by distorted education policies, and the greatest harm is done by the Territory-wide System Assessment (TSA) that I am going to focus on today.
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Deputy President, the TSA has become a huge monster. It was introduced in 2004 to replace the Academic Attainment Test abolished in 2000. The TSA consists of Oral, Written and Chinese audio-visual assessments at Primary Three level, Primary Six level and Secondary Three level. The main purpose of the TSA is to provide the Government and school management with information on basic competency standards of all students in the territory in Chinese, English and Mathematics for the purposes of improving teaching and learning, and to provide the Government with more information on the effects of free education.
The authorities emphasized that the TSA is a low-stakes survey and it is not intended to exert pressure on schools or students. The assessments are not focused on the allocation of school places on the basis of the test results of individual students. The TSA results will not affect students' further studies and have nothing to do with secondary school places allocation. It seems that there should not be any pressure. The Government also stated that the TSA reports are meant only for the Education Bureau's reference, and it will not publicly announce the TSA results of each school lest the schools should compete with one another, with a view to reducing the pressure on students.
Deputy President, we know that the TSA has been implemented for nine years since 2004, but it is not true that no pressure is put on students, schools and parents as the Education Bureau imagined. Everybody is under pressure. The TSA has been seriously distorted and has undergone catabolism, changing into a huge assessment monster that all of us want to knock dwon. The TSA has largely intensified the competition among primary schools. Quite a number of schools are drilling students before the TSA, thus subjecting students to unnecessary pressure of examination throughout their primary school years when they are the youngest and happiest, hampering their physical and mental development.
Why did I say that the TSA has been seriously distorted and has undergone catabolism whilst the TSA is only for Primary Three students? A survey conducted by the Hong Kong Professional Teachers' Union (HKPTU) found that quite a number of schools started drilling six-year-old Primary One students for the TSA. Some 35% of the schools asked Primary One students to buy TSA supplementary exercises while respectively 93% and 89% of the Primary Three and Primary Six students have bought TSA supplementary exercises. Within six primary school years, it is estimated that each primary student has to buy 16 TSA supplementary exercises on average. The survey of the HKPTU also found that LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3123 schools organized TSA make-up classes for students before and after classes, on Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays, and even during lunch time. Is this behaviour abnormal?
Respectively 86% and 92% of the schools organized TSA make-up classes for Primary Three and Primary Six students. Primary Three students have five make-up periods each week on average. Primary Six students have 5.6 make-up periods each week on average; in other words, they have an extra period each day to prepare for the TSA which is pointless and supposed to not affect their future studies.
Some parents are very dissatisfied with the need for their children to attend make-up classes. They need to bring them back to the school for make-up classes even on holidays while their children have to learn to play violin and many other things. The parents are exhausted and the worst thing is that they even do not know the answers to many questions in the supplementary exercises. These questions have become harder and harder, and more and more tricky. Have we considered why there is such an extent of catabolism? A parent make complaints in an online survey of a TSA Concern Group. It is a pity that the Secretary is absent today, but I hope officials will convey the message to him. According to this parent, his Primary Three child has TSA make-up classes every Tuesday after school from 3.30 pm to 5 pm. He also needs to return to school on Saturdays for make-up classes from 8 am to 1 pm. Is that not abnormal? During these classes, the children are mechanically drilled to complete a number of TSA test papers on Chinese, English and Mathematics. The spoon-feeding class is no fun and the children are miserable.
Can students not return to the school for make-up classes? No. If they do not return to the school for make-up classes, they will be regarded as being absent from class and their conduct marks will be deducted. So, parents are forced to bring their children back to the school for spoon-feeding education. Honestly speaking, while we are discussing children's interests, have we asked the children if they really want to take those tests and attend the make-up classes?
Deputy President, Primary Three children are only eight years old, why do they have to take those tests? In paragraph 78 of the report, the UNCRC recommended that the Government should examine the local education system, reduce competition, encourage students to develop the ability to take the initiative to learn and to protect their rights to play and leisure. I personally think that the 3124 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Government should follow the recommendations of the UNCRC and immediately stop implementing the TSA to eliminate the nightmare of children. We should knock down this monster together and we should do not destroy our children. We must ensure that they learn happily at a tender age, instead of constantly having TSA drills and make-up classes.
Deputy President, I call upon the Government to immediately set up a commission on children, so that some dedicated people will listen to the views of children.
With these remarks, I support Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion.
MR DENNIS KWOK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, children are the most vulnerable group in our society. They need to rely on the care of adults and they are unable to protect themselves. Precisely because of children's special needs of care and protection, the leaders of countries around the world found it necessary to have a convention for children and formulated the Convention on Rights of the Child (the Convention) in 1989. This is the first legally binding international convention, which proved how the world attached importance to the rights of children. And this is a responsibility we must shoulder all the more.
As caring for children is an obligation we must honour, countries around the world which signed the Convention have established Children's Councils or Commissions on Children in light of the unique needs of children. The purpose is to allow children to express their views or allow some non-government organizations caring for them or the civil society to express their views, such that their desires and needs can be furthered. Why should children be given the opportunities to have their voices heard? First, as explicitly specified in Articles 12 and 13 of the Convention, the child shall be provided the opportunity to freely express their views. So, it is essential for the Government to formulate or establish a commission on children with statutory advisory powers, to allow children to express their views on policies affecting them and participate in consultations on relevant social policies concerned.
We have the Commission on Youth, the Women's Commission and the Elderly Commission in Hong Kong, specialized in studying the situations of and policies on the youth, women and the elderly, and giving the Government advice. However, there is no independent commission on children. Although the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3125
Legislative Council passed a motion sometime ago asking the Government to set up a commission on children, the Government has refused to do so for many years, on the excuse that the Family Council and the Children's Rights Forum have already been established. Since they have already taken care of children's affairs, it is not essential to establish a commission on children.
Undoubtedly, the family is the most important place for children's living and growth but it is not enough to rely on families alone. On education, we must consider whether the Government can provide children with a good learning environment, as many Members have said earlier. Such issues as whether there are smooth ladders of further studies and whether tertiary institutions can cultivate excellent teachers for children have gone beyond the scope of matters that families can cope alone. Therefore, it is not targeted or comprehensive for the Government to deal with children's needs through the Family Council.
We can see from the work of the Family Council in the past that, it was not really focused on caring for family affairs. Since its establishment in 2007, the Family Council had not held many meetings, only 17, and it rarely had discussions about children. If the Government still thinks that the Family Council can perform the functions of a commission on children, it evidently wishes to shrik responsibilities. The Children's Rights Forum is not a statutory body and it does not have any power conferred by the law to formulate and co-ordinate children policies, nor can it monitor and follow up with the relevant government departments. Honestly, this Forum can only have discussions and it can definitely not play the statutory roles of a commission on children.
Deputy President, as we all know, the Chief Executive, LEUNG Chun-ying, really likes to set up many different commissions but we do not know what purposes most of these commissions serve. That being the case, we suggest that he might as well set up a commission on children. I believe this commission will be most strongly supported by the community and this Council. Dr Fernando CHEUNG has just mentioned that one in four children in Hong Kong are living below the poverty line. This reminds me of a television drama a few years ago. One of the protagonists made the following comments on the problems of children: "One in five children live in the most abject, dangerous, hopeless, back-breaking, gut-wrenching poverty any of us could imagine. One in five, and they're children. If fidelity to freedom and democracy is the code of our civic religion then surely the code of our humanity is faithful service to that unwritten commandment that says we shall give our children better than we 3126 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 ourselves received." While a television drama can talk about such a simple and important truth, why has the SAR Government refused to accept this fact and truth and to shoulder such an important responsibility?
I so submit, Deputy President.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I speak in support of the original motion and Dr Kenneth CHAN's amendment.
Deputy President, I will elaborate my views on three areas: first, children's financial and livelihood security; second, the needs of parent-child activities and family life; and third, a healthy information environment is essential to the development of children.
Deputy President, there are tens of thousands of children living below the poverty line, and many of them are living in "sub-divided units", cubicles or "coffin rooms"; I have empathy for their situations because that also happened to me. When I was a small child in the late 1950s, I came to Hong Kong with my parents via Macao when we were escaping from atrocities. Life was very difficult, and we lived on the street, with nothing proper for meals. Fortunately, I attended a workers' children's school jointly organized by a trade union and the Education Advancement Society for Workers. My experience was more or less the same as that described in the movie "Echoes of the Rainbow". I think the authorities must address squarely the issue of how to assist children who currently have financial and livelihood difficulties. I think it is really essential for the Government to set up a commission on children and the authorities should no longer evade that.
Second, I would like to talk about parent-child relationship and family life, which involves a very important real-life situation. Last week, I met a young man in the Tin Hau MTR station who was rushing to the Victoria Park pool after work as he works as a swimming coach there. He told me that he has a four-year-old daughter and he could only see her once a week. In order to make ends meet, he works three jobs a day and lives in Chai Wan. He asked me why that was happening in our society? Apart from setting the minimum wage, should the Government not expeditiously consider legislate on standard working hours?
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Deputy President, the FTU conducted a survey in June this year and interviewed more than 900 wage earners. Some 40% of these wage earners are parents but they admitted that they are not qualified. It is not because they do not want to be qualified parents, but their long working hours make it hard for them to take care of the family or spend time with their children. More than 2% of the respondents said that they can spend time with their children for about an hour every day, which is not bad at all; more than 1% of the respondents said that they have only five minutes to spend with their children every day while some respondents even said that they can only spend time with their children once or less than once a week.
Deputy President, in such circumstances, how can the parent-child relationship not become alienated? The former Chief Executive called upon Hong Kong people to have three children, which was just empty talk without considering the actual circumstances. Should the current-term Government not pay attention to the healthy development of children, good parent-child relationship and family life, and actively take steps to legislate on standard working hours without further delay?
That is the second point. The third point is that a healthy information environment is essential to the development of children. Deputy President, there is flourishing information development and it has even reached a point of explosion. Children can get a lot of information through various channels, but a lot of the information from mobile phones, advertisements, the television and even the media is unhealthy, and there are many obscene publications or indecent advertisements, which adversely affect children's development. It is most unbearable that some Members in this Chamber failed to set an example. At the formal meetings of the Legislative Council, they expressed their views in a vulgar and brutal manner, which upset order in the Council. This actually set a fairly bad example. How can children learn to observe order and stress the importance of discipline while they have been unconsciously influenced?
For this reason, I would like to take this opportunity to call upon Members to act for the sake of children and our future generations. If they have any views, why can they not express them in more civilized ways?
Having considered the three areas above, I think it is necessary to set up a commission on children. The Government has cited the establishment of the Family Council as an excuse to refuse or delay doing so, but I think its argument 3128 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 is lame and incorrect. Hence, after listening to the debate today, I hope the authorities will propose a timetable and a roadmap in response (The buzzer sounded) …
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, your speaking time is up.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): … for the setting up of a commission on children. Thank you, Deputy President.
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I often find it rather strange that while Hong Kong can be described as a civilized and affluent society, the ways in which the SAR Government handled important social issues can be compared to those of third world countries. Hong Kong is not without resources and the officials in Hong Kong are not without knowledge, but for reasons unknown, it appears that their views on some matters can never catch up with the trend.
Deputy President, the United Nations adopted the Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) in 1989. The year of 1989 is a very special year that Hong Kong and China can hardly forget. The Chinese Government ratified the Convention in 1991 and the British Government did the same in 1994. As the Convention was ratified by the British Government and the Chinese Governments, the SAR Government undoubtedly became a signatory region to the Convention.
Deputy President, it is not difficult to understand the concept of protecting the rights of the child but the SAR Government seems so stubborn. I have made this comment because many Honourable colleagues, including Dr Fernando CHEUNG who moved this meaningful motion today, mentioned that the same motion had been passed by the Legislative Council in 2007. Six years have passed since 2007 and we have constantly reminded the SAR Government during this period that we have the international, moral and human rights responsibilities to implement the Convention, especially to set up a commission on children.
Deputy President, I clearly remember that, in 2009 or 2010, I proposed to the former Chief Executive, Donald TSANG, the establishment of a commission LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3129 on rights of the child. I believe Secretary Raymond TAM was present at the time for he was working with the Chief Executive's Office then. I clearly recall that Donald TSANG gave a very strange response: He said, "Mr Ronny TONG, do we not have the Family Council already? Do we not have the Commission on Youth already? Do we not have the Women's Commission already? While all these councils and commissions encompassed family values, have the basic rights of children not been taken care of?
Deputy President, I asked the question during the consultation on the policy address and my speaking time was very limited but Donald TSANG really infuriated me. How could the Chief Executive be so ignorant? He was really ignorant, Deputy President. He failed entirely to understand the contents of the Convention. Indeed, he should not be so ignorant. During the same period, the children's rights movement was brewing in Australia … I would like to use the word "magnificent" to describe the movement but I do not think it is necessary. This extensive people's movement promoted the enactment of laws on children's rights and the establishment of the Children's Rights Commission.
If my memory has not failed me, the Commissioner of the Australian Children's Rights Commission visited Hong Kong the year before last. I met with him and discussed the Australian experience in legislation. He explained very explicitly that the Convention required the establishment of a commission to handle the issue and ensure that children's rights were respected from the children's perspectives. The main work of the Committee is to co-ordinate the legislative process; when anyone proposes a law, he needs to consult the committee on the rights of the child which will then examine from its point of view how the law affects children and whether there is any harm to children before stating its views. In addition to legislation, when all facilities and infrastructure developments, and even all government policies involve children's interests, the commission will have to co-ordinate matters and make macroscopic considerations from the perspective of the child. This is not the work of the Family Council, the Women's Commission or the Commission on Youth. Therefore, the SAR Government has all along failed to understand what we have been saying, which made me feel very sorry.
Deputy President, it does not matter if the SAR Government has not implemented the Convention. Even worse, we contravene some very special provisions of the Convention every day. Deputy President, a non-government organization met with us last week and told us that many orphans for adoption in 3130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Hong Kong had been completely forgotten under the system. Some of these children are now teenagers. Of course, Deputy President, you may understand that it is impossible to find families to adopt children over the age of four or five because not many people are willing to adopt older children. That is the situation of our system.
Deputy President, this completely contravenes Article 20 of the Convention which states that a child temporarily or permanently deprived of his or her family environment, or in whose own best interests cannot be allowed to remain in that environment, shall be entitled to special protection and assistance provided by the State. Such protection and assistance is meant to help ensure that children grow up in a family environment and not in an orphanage environment, and that they should know what parents' love is like. They are always waiting for adoption by families, and they want to grow up in families; yet, they may have to wait forever. They are now teenagers or adults, but they have never experienced the warmth of family. How can we allow this to happen in such an advanced and civilized society as Hong Kong?
Deputy President, I am very sorry about the SAR government's actions.
MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, with an ageing population and a low birth rate, children have become increasingly delicate and the elder family members love children dearly and indulgently. As we can see, parents with the means arranged for their children to attend many classes and interest groups. We joked about them and said that they want their children to become all-round athletes. These parents would not mind even if they are called "monster parents" or "helicopter parents" because they believe they must give their children the best. A lot of people in the community share this common view.
On the other hand, there are a considerable number of children in Hong Kong living in poor conditions, and their activity space may be restricted to a cubicle or "sub-divided unit". They cannot afford to learn piano and dancing so as to become all-round athletes, nor can they afford to attend tutorial classes or extra-curricular activities. Some of them even live frugally and eat cheap and unhealthy food.
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They are also the future masters of Hong Kong, but why is there such a big difference? The problem lies in the disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong, making it impossible for children to start at the same spot at the starting line. Poor children lost the competition at the starting line.
Though Honourable colleagues have spoken a lot, I still wish to take the trouble to give the Government some figures. According to the low-income household statistics compiled by the Hong Kong Council of Social Service, there were 200 000 poor children under the age of 15 in 2011, so one in four children was poor. In the report on Hong Kong's poverty situation published earlier by the Commission on Poverty, it is stated that there were more than 250 000 poor children aged between zero and 17, and the poverty rate was nearly 25%. Over the years, the Government claimed that it has done a lot in poverty alleviation, but its work on poor children has been ineffective.
Regarding today's motion on setting up a commission on children, Dr Fernando CHEUNG already moved a similar motion in the term of the Legislative Council before last when I was still a Member, as Honourable colleagues have just mentioned, and the motion was supported by us. It has been six years since the passage of the motion, and children who were 10 years old back then are young people now. But it seemed that little help has been given to them.
Six years have passed and the motion has been moved again without any changes today. Frankly speaking, there are lots of issues for discussion in this Council but I particularly wish to discuss this issue because I think the situation is really miserable and unfair to those poor children who are inferior to the others. The Secretary refuted earlier and said that we have a multi-sector and cross-policy Family Council to study this issue. As Honourable colleagues have just made similar comments, I am not going to repeat their points. What actually is the Family Council doing?
The Secretary may have underestimated the complexity of children's issues and the departments' ability to shirk responsibilities. About the family issues handled by the Family Council, as some Honourable colleagues have just mentioned, even the Chairman of the Family Council does not know that certain issues are within the terms of reference of the Family Council. It has an extensive scope of work and it also needs to deal with issues relating to women 3132 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 and children, and many other issues. Yet, it simply fails to handle the issues of children.
Let me give an example. The Panel on Welfare Services discussed anti-drug services at the meeting yesterday though the issue should be discussed by the Panel on Security. Our discussions at the meeting covered different areas including schools, the police, the Social Welfare Department and family education. To solve the problem of hidden drug abuse among youths, we believed that there had to be co-operation and co-ordination among these units. Nevertheless, the Security Bureau is currently in charge of the policies concerned. As it specializes in law enforcement and combating the inflow of drugs, it is not really familiar with how to help young drug addicts or prevent drug addiction while other departments can only passively provide assistance. Why was this issue discussed by the Panel on Welfare Services? The issue was discussed by the Panel on Welfare Services because it could not be discussed by the Panel on Security, therefore, the Panel on Welfare Services has to explore the issue from the perspective of service provision. Honestly, the Labour and Welfare Bureau does not bother about the relevant expenditures because they come under the scope of work of the Security Bureau. This is a very prominent and typical example.
Deputy President, the Government should be able to handle the youth drug abuse problem much better if it sets up a commission on children for macroscopic examination and co-ordination. Unfortunately, as policies are now made by different departments, the departments fail to fully solve the problems or there is deviation in the measures taken; hence, we get half the result with twice the effort. I fully understand that and I can cite ten or a hundred examples if necessary. There are a host of problems with the departments, and I believe the senior Secretary, Mr TAM, must understand what I meant to say. It is very difficult for the Government to promote policies at present. According to the Secretary, the problems of women and children can be solved through the Family Council. I do not mean to make any criticism, but I trust that this is objectively difficult.
The problems of children are complex and require specialized handling. The problems of children are not simple and quite a lot of problems require targeted attention. Taking poor children as an example, I know the Government has made efforts these few years but it only provided financial assistance such as textbook allowance and provided assistance through the Child Development LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3133
Fund, but all this fails to solve the problems. According to a survey, poor children easily have an obesity problem because they often eat non-nutritional food or leftovers. We should bear in mind that fat persons may not be well-off and thin persons are now regarded as healthy. The Government should consider how the problem of poor children can be solved; they are living in small places and they do not even have desks. We find that many children are in similar situations. Another example is that a large number of children cannot participate in social activities through which they can broaden their horizons. When their parents have gone to work or are very busy, they can only hang around in the grass-roots community. As we have observed, when nobody cares about some children and teenagers, they will slowly become youths at risk or young drug addicts.
Can the Government really solve the problems of children though it provides assistance such as textbook allowance? Poor children have difficulties, can the Government resolve the issue of unfairness at the starting line?
Deputy President, we all agree that children should be assisted and I think that setting up a specialized commission on children can help solve the problems one by one. I trust that the current practice of solving the problems in an isolated manner does not work. Hence, we support Dr Fernando CHEUNG's original motion and Dr Kenneth CHAN's amendment. We also hope the Government can really put into practice the provision in Article 3 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child: "ensure the child such protection and care as is necessary for his or her well-being". I particularly hope that it can make efforts for the well-being of 200 000 poor children.
Deputy President, after this debate today, I hope I do not need to wait until the next-term Legislative Council to see improvements. I am not sure if I will still be a Member of this Council, and I am not sure what will happen at that time. Although I am very disappointed, I really hope that the Government would set up a specialized commission to solve the poverty problem, pinpoint these issues (The buzzer sounded) …
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN, your speaking time is up.
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MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): … and set up a commission. Thank you, Deputy President.
MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, on this day 24 years ago, that is, 20 November 1989, the United Nations adopted the Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention). This is a very important international announcement that various countries of the world should actively protect children's rights.
However, many Members have indicated in this debate today that they are very disappointed, because the Government has been delaying the setting up of a commission for children. What are the reasons? Setting up a commission for children is the responsibility of a signatory according to the Convention. This Council had made such a request through a related motion, but the Government has failed to set up a commission on children throughout the years. The only reasonable explanation is that government policies have not attached importance to children's affairs.
Why did the United Nations adopt the Convention and request the signatories to set up commissions on children? It is because it considered children important. I believe the Government should co-ordinate all policies and work hard in this direction.
What is the Government's rationale in saying that a commission on children will not be established since the Family Council has already been established. Do government policies attach importance to children's affairs? The most important benchmark is whether the Government will set up a commission on children. The Government has established the Elderly Commission, the Commission on Youth and the Women's Commission, but not a commission on children. I think the Government owes us a thorough explanation.
Today's motion is directly related to the well-being of more than 1 million children in Hong Kong. On the surface, children in Hong Kong are blessed because there is no war or famine, the most serious threats to children's survival. Even though these have not happened in Hong Kong, are children in Hong Kong healthy and happy? We really need an answer to this question.
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I received this drawing when I arrived at the Legislative Council today, and it was given to me by a child called Amy LI. It depicted a child playing happily and freely on the grass. I believe she did this drawing out of her imagination and ideals because the majority of children in Hong Kong are actually not as happy and free as the children in her drawing.
The United Nations Children's Fund has recently produced a series of advertisements that Honourable colleagues might have seen. In these advertisements, a child on the grass turned to look at a football, and it seemed that he wanted to play football, but he was taken away by his mother. Why did his mother take him away? Our mothers let us play in the past and we used to hang around in football pitches. When our society becomes more advanced, it seems that the children have less satisfactory experiences. Why are they not able to play? Why are children unable to enjoy the "rights to play" as stipulated in the Convention?
Dr Helena WONG gave a very good explanation earlier. She said that, under our education system, the Territory-wide System Assessment (TSA) has unwittingly eroded the rights of children. If this generation of people do not have children, they may not know what TSA is. I only know the Secondary School Entrance Examination and the Academic Aptitude Test. The TSA is the latest arrangement that pressurized children. All students in Primary Three and Primary Six must take this central TSA examination.
Although the Government has told us not to be so nervous, after it has said so, the officials of the Education Bureau would explain to schools why the results of their students are good or bad. They also cited the TSA results to assess the quality of schools, putting school sponsoring bodies under pressure. When the pressure brought by the TSA keeps shifting, the TSA undergoes constant catabolism. There are so many TSA supplementary exercises in bookstores, not only students are told by schools to buy these exercises but the parents are also buying these exercises.
Dr Helena WONG has just now cited the result of a survey indicating that some Primary One students started drilling for the TSA. In the past, only Primary Five students started drilling for the Secondary School Entrance Examination. This situation has spread to kindergartens and kindergarten pupils also have drills very often. The TSA questions have become more and more 3136 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 difficult, completely defeating the original intention. What are the reasons? These issues should be resolved seriously.
We have a few specific proposals: first, conducting comprehensive consultations; second, abolishing the TSA to eliminate the demerits brought by the TSA; if it is not abolished, the TSA should be changed into a pure academic research project rather than a project that will pose threats to students, parents and schools. The Education Bureau should exercise self-restraint. It should not abuse the TSA data and it has to improve the mode of dissemination of information and review the TSA questions, including the types of questions and the degrees of difficulty. If the Government does not abolish the TSA, it must think of ways to enable children to enjoy their due rights.
Due to the time constraints, I cannot dwell on another issue that we are concerned abut today, that is, the misfortunes of poor children. For example, for children with special educational needs, disadvantaged ethnic minority children and children with special learning difficulties, the Government needs to provide efficient assistance and various government departments need to make concerted efforts. However, the Education Bureau, the Social Welfare Department and even the Maternal and Child Health Centres providing the necessary health services for children in early childhood have not provided co-ordinated services. All these issues (The buzzer sounded) … should be handled by a commission on children …
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP, your speaking time is up.
MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): … Thank you, Deputy President.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, back in 2007, the Legislative Council passed a motion urging the Government to set up a commission on children. In the past, the Legislative Council rarely got the unanimous support of various poitical parties and independent Members for an issue. In the past six years, the Government constantly refused to set up a commission on children under the pretext that there are the Children's Rights Forum and the Family Council, and various related welfare and education policies and measures catered for the best interests of children.
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In fact, the Children's Rights Forum is a forum where government representatives and the non-governmental organizations concerned with children held meetings three times a year. The topics discussed are fragmentary and there is a lack of in-depth consideration of the policies on children in a macroscopic manner. The Family Council is focused on promoting family core values and it is not specifically targeted at children's development and well-being. The most debatable point is that there are currently the Elderly Commission, the Commission on Youth and the Women's Commission, and the chairmen of these three Commissions are members of the Family Council, yet, the Government is unwilling to establish a commission on children to examine the formulation of policies relating to children in a concentrated and focused manner.
Under the United Nations' Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention), a child is defined as a person under the age of 18 while the service targets of the Commission on Youth are people aged between 15 and 24. In other words, there is no commission under the Government to care for or provide assistance to children aged 14 and below in Hong Kong.
As of the middle of last year, there were 1.05 million children under 18 years of age in Hong Kong, accounting for 15% of our 7.1 million-plus population, and this percentage cannot be described as small. Over the past decade, cases of domestic violence and child abuse have been on the rise and there are a lot of hidden domestic violence and child abuse cases, so the actual number is certainly larger than the official figure.
Children subjected to domestic violence and abuse will generally be unhappy, prone to depression which affects their physical and mental health. Other children such as children with intellectual disabilities, children with disabilities and children living in poverty need support in terms of education and welfare policies. These issues have highlighted all the more the need for the Government to set up a cross-bureau and inter-departmental commission on children for central co-ordination and implementation of relevant policies, in order to achieve the purpose of effectively helping children.
It is well known in Hong Kong that, where inter-departmental policies are involved, no department will probably be handling them. For example, when the Audit Commission recently recommended that the Public Accounts Committee should follow up on the management of skips, various government 3138 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 departments love to act in their own ways and shirk responsibilities, and they will not take the initiative to proactively follow up on the matter.
Records of child abuse cases come from the Social Welfare Department, the police and the hospitals, and the data are not consistent. We precisely lack a central and unified child abuse case database; and we lack comprehensive and in-depth knowledge of information on health and education for children under the age of 18. We need to conduct more investigations, researches and analyses to formulate effective long-term child development policies, strategies and indicators. We in the Liberal Party believe that a commission on children can play a role in this connection.
Two days ago, the Panel on Constitutional Affairs of the Legislative Council held a public hearing on the Second Report submitted by the HKSAR to the United Nations according to the Convention and received deputations' views. I noticed that a number of non-profit-making organizations concerned about the interests of children in Hong Kong long term reaffirmed that a commission on children should be established. Their rationale is reasonable and convincing. For example, the law requires the protection of the rights of children such as legislating to ban corporal punishment. Now, more than 30 countries around the world have enacted legislation prohibiting corporal punishment of children. And there is a requirement to increase the age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14 to comply with internationally recognized standards. We think the Government needs to respond to the request made by the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child and expeditiously protect the due rights of children.
The functions of a commission on children should at least include the following: (a) to ensure that an assessment of the possible impact on children should be made before the introduction or amendment of all policies relating to children; (b) to monitor the implementation of the legislation; (c) to formulate indicators for improving children's rights; and (d) to conduct researches and analyses on children's rights in different aspects.
We in the Liberal Party agree to today's original motion and the two amendments, and we hope that the protection of the rights of children can be enhanced as soon as possible. I so submit, Deputy President.
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DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, children are the future of our society and the success or failure of social development depends on how we nurture and support children and how much thought and effort we spent on them. All of these serve crucial functions.
All of us were once children. When we were children, we basically could play, go to school and had three meals a day. We did not think too much about life and we were basically happy. The most important thing was that we had the loving care of parents and families. But when children gradually grow up, especially when some grass-roots children grow up, they will begin to discover that there is intense competition in society, and when they encounter difficulties in university admission and housing, they will find that the road is long and tough.
A few days ago, I read in the newspapers that a young man had wanted to be admitted to university but he did not have enough money, so he worked really hard and saved up sufficient money a few years later. Unexpectedly, he was not admitted by any university and he eventually took his own life. I felt very sad after reading the news. In these past few years, many young people have accumulated a lot of grievances, for some of them cannot afford to study, or some couples cannot afford the rents of flats, so they are living in small and crowded "sub-divided units". The most pathetic are some young people with illness who feel abandoned by society and are simply hopeless about the future. All of these have dealt heavy blows to the confidence of these young people in their future development and self-confidence, which in turn affects the future development of society.
The Government says today that it is very much concerned about young people, but these fire fighting actions are only the most urgent solutions to the burning prairie fire, whereas fire prevention is the most fundamental course of action. As we have noticed that young people are facing a lot of difficulties today, why do we not plan ahead to prevent the future generations from repeating the mistakes we made today?
As we have observed, when a child is born, his parents will make certain plans for the child, and some parents will even make lifelong plans for their children, for example, where they will study and what career they will pursue in the future. Some parents will even take out savings insurance for children to pay for expenses on education in the future, or even for the down payments of flats.
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If we say that Hong Kong is a family and the Government is the parent of the family, every person in Hong Kong is a child in the family, then the Government as the parent has the responsibility to plan well for the future of every child and young person in Hong Kong; otherwise, how can we encourage women to give birth? How can we ignite hope in the younger generation?
I have recently told my friends that the Government should establish a baby savings fund, and my idea is supported by many of them. At present, similar baby savings funds or children's funds have been set up in various parts of the world, so baby funds are nothing new. Since the Government has a considerable reserve, it precisely should plan well for our future and the younger generation, and it should even try to solve the problem of an ageing population. We realize that young people in the future have to bear very heavy social responsibilities. Should we not consider setting up these funds as soon as possible or make plans for savings for the younger generation?
Deputy President, our national leaders have said that each person has a dream and the dream of Chinese leaders is that every Chinese person can live a well-off life. I also have a dream today and I hope that, one day, the Government would set up savings funds for the younger generation. I believe the younger generation will certainly have a narrower wealth gap, the problem of inter-generational poverty must be alleviated, and we can give the younger generation a dream and a hope. I received a book today, and a child whose surname is KWAN said that not only the rich can pursue their dreams and we must persevere if we have a dream. Young people really need to have dreams.
The day before yesterday, the Panel on Constitutional Affairs held a hearing on the related issues, and quite a number of deputations reflected that grass-roots children had been neglected, we felt very sad at hearing that. We hope the Government will more readily listen to the voices of the public and the deputations, to understand their situations and express concern for their well-being in the future. We understand that it takes some time to set up a commission on children and there are many factors for consideration, thus we hope that the Government will as soon as possible put more resources in the Family Council before setting up a commission, focusing on children's affairs and planning well for a child's life. Hence, as regards the proposal in Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion of setting up a commission on children (The buzzer sounded) …
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DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHIANG, your speaking time is up.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): … the DAB supports it. Thank you, Deputy President.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, today, 20 November, is the World Children's Day and the United Nations adopted the Convention on the Rights of the Child 24 years ago. Incidentally, Dr Fernando CHEUNG got a chance to move this motion today. I guessed Dr CHEUNG would be delighted that he could move a meaningful motion on a meaningful day, but I found that Dr Fernando CHEUNG is not at all happy today. I am not sure if he is happy or not, so let him tell us how he feel later.
The motion today is nothing new as he already moved a similar motion six years ago in 2007. Just now he said in his opening speech that, within these six years, most work in Hong Kong on children's rights have come to a standstill and no progress has been made. In that case, he should not be happy but he should feel sorry when he got the slot of moving this motion today. We are really sorry that, on this special day … if we suddenly become aware today that we should be concerned about children's rights, it may be meaninful to discuss this issue on this special day. However, that is not the case; he moved a similar motion six years ago and I believe that he is not the only one who moved a similar motion at that time.
I frequently examine the issue of children's rights and I think that the issue was raised even earlier. Year after year, the work on children's rights remains stagnant, and this makes us really sad. Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion today "urges the Government to set up a commission on children to fulfil the obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, safeguard the well-being of children, and ensure that children's perspectives were fully taken into account in the process of formulating policies". This is pleasing to the ear but if a commission on children is set up for this purpose, I will honestly disagree.
Why do I disagree? His motion mentions the Family Council and there is also the Women's Commission in Hong Kong. Does the Family Council have the responsibility of dealing with family problems? Does the Women's 3142 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Commission have the responsibility of dealing with women's problems? Why are there so many problems with families? How about women? The social status of women has obviously not become higher and women are still oppressed. Even if the Government sets up a commission on children as Dr CHEUNG has urged, will there be substantial progress in its work on children's rights in the future? I am anxious and worried about this. I think the situation is not optimistic because the Government will have one more excuse to claim that it has made efforts, but it would have just handed over the work to the commission on children after its establishment. I am worried that this will just give the Government another shield.
Casting aside the question of whether such worries are valid… I ask the Secretary not to be pleased, for I am not opposing this motion. I do not support this motion in principle but I actually think that a commission on children should be established in the first place. What are the reasons? Because we have to implement the Convention on the Rights of the Child and we have a lot of responsibilities under the Convention. It may not be ideal to rely on the Government to discharge these responsibilities, and the efforts will be more focused and meaningful if a commission on children can take charge of co-ordination and promotion.
For example, it is specified in Article 27 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child that States Parties recognize the right of every child to a standard of living adequate for the child's development. This is also the basic responsibility of parents, and States Parties shall ensure the performance of this basic responsibility and shall in case of need provide material assistance and support programmes to maintain an adequate standard of living. We should note this very important point, that is, parents should be responsible for ensuring children's standard of living and the Government has the responsibility to provide assistance when parents fail to do so.
Unfortunately, an enormous number of local families are now living below the poverty line, and 153 800 children in Hong Kong are living below the poverty line because of the unsatisfactory financial positions of their families. The Government must make greater efforts if it is mindful of caring for the living standard of these children. This issue alone involves huge numbers, should a commission be set up to make focused efforts? To address children's livelihood issues, we should not just focus on the poverty problem and we also need to consider many other problems such as education, healthcare and housing. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3143
Hence, we need a commission to play a co-ordinating role. Even if a commission is really set up, I have doubts and worries about whether it can assume the role and these responsibilities.
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
In any case, it would be better to set up a commission. For example, even when we found that the performance of the Family Council is unsatisfactory, Dr Fernando CHEUNG can talk to those members to understand the reasons, such that somebody will force them to work. Another example is that, when we found that the performance of the Women's Commission is unsatisfactory, the work they do for women will be openly criticized and commented. To whom can we complain if there is no commission on children? The Government only sweepingly claims that it has done a lot on children's issues. We still support Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion urging the Government to set up a commission on children to focus on the relevant work. I so submit. Thank you, President.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, caring for children is human nature and an indicator of the manifestation human kindness. A civilized society will regard protecting children and assisting in their development as important social values, which are fully reflected in social policies. The governments of advanced countries have made solemn commitments to their nationals and the international community to protect children.
Whether a community cares for children should be reflected in whether the caring measures generally benefit every child, especially the vulnerable groups among children. For instance, helping children with disability integrate better into society; establishing a good social welfare system to support deprived children and enable their healthy growth; and putting in place fair and quality education, healthcare, housing and other systems to help the growth of children. A high degree of co-ordination is needed to achieve these interlocking goals, to incorporate different policy contents into the policy concepts, and to comply with the consensus of the community on the protection and development of children, so as to promote the sharing of responsibilities by the community.
President, for more than 20 years, many non-government organizations in Hong Kong have requested the Government to set up a commission on children. 3144 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
It is because they saw the importance of work in this respect and they also realized that the Government needed to design reasonable social measures and systems in order to achieve the desired effects, which included improving the legal system to protect children and strengthening the support system for society. The Government should take the lead and the community should be involved before a safer, healthier and freer environment can be created for children in Hong Kong. This will ultimately provide Hong Kong with more solid human capital that will form the impetus for development.
However, when the Secretary for Labour and Welfare, Matthew CHEUNG, replied to questions raised by Legislative Council Members last month on behalf of the Government, he stated once again that a commission on children would not be set up, and that made various sectors of the community and non-government organizations deeply disappointed. Secretary Matthew CHEUNG said that a number of policy departments are concerned about matters related to children's welfare, and he also said that, in formulating relevant policies, different Policy Bureaux will have co-ordination and communication and they would also consult the advisory bodies concerned. The Secretary's response is actually the response consistently given by the Government. I hope the Secretary present will not repeat those arguments. Had the existing measures and work concerning children's affairs operated effectively in response to the community's concerns, the voices in the community fighting for children's interests would not have been growing stronger and stronger, and the organizations joining in the fight would not have been growing in number.
Taking ethnic minority children as example, the Government only focuses on racial adaptation and language barriers, which are regarded as their own problems. Therefore, the Home Affairs Department has set up Support Service Centres for Ethnic Minorities since 2009 to help them integrate into society. The Education Bureau has launched a series of measures to help non-Chinese speaking students adapt to the local education system and learn Chinese.
On the one hand, as limited resources are injected into these two measures, the services provided are just like embellishment, and years of experience tells us that the effect is very limited. On the other hand, facing the community's prejudice and discrimination, they encounter setbacks in education, healthcare, housing and employment and when they get along with neighbours. Social workers have told us that ethnic minority youths have generally accumulated frustration from childhood, and this continued well into adulthood. The LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3145 community's prejudice and the labelling effects will affect their personal growth, disabling them from establishing a positive self-image. It is even more terrible that this will be passed from generation to generation.
The deprivation of social resources has crucial adverse impacts on their upward social mobility. For example, there is a higher risk of inter-generational poverty. As I have mentioned, they do not need activities such as tutoring or after-school remedial classes, but they only need fair treatment in society, equal status at the starting line on the path of growth, and the Government's emphasis on human rights, fairness and justice. In other words, they do not need a few support measures, but they need a holistic social policy that will help them at the early stages of growth.
President, the Legislative Council passed a motion on setting up a commission on children in 2007, but the Government has only set up the Children's Rights Forum to organize some activities every one or two years, which is completely irresponsible and irrelevant. According to a non-government concern organization, it is an international trend to establish a special department to deal with children's affairs, and more than 70 countries and more than 200 regions have Commissions on Children or Commissioners for Children. In these troubled times, I hope the Government will not underestimate this issue; instead, it should seize the opportunity to squarely address and follow up on it. This is an opportunity to manifest public opinion, make use of people's wisdom, allow the public to co-operate with the Government, and allow the Government to regain positive energy.
I so submit, President.
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the motion today demands the Government to set up a commission on children. Children are the most precious wealth of Hong Kong and I guess no one will disagree with this motion on the well-being of children. I think it is more comprehensive and objective if the wordings "children's perspectives were fully taken into account" in Dr Fernando CHEUNG's original motion can be changed to "children's well-being was fully taken into account".
Today, I would like to discuss two aspects of this motion. First, the welfare of the socially disadvantaged groups and children. Many Honourable 3146 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 colleagues have mentioned health, sick children and how to improve the education policies. In particular, two Honourable colleagues from the education sector have talked about the Territory-wide System Assessment (TSA). I have recently made a lot of comments on the Chinese Language and Liberal Studies examinations. Not only the English Language subject or the TSA but also many subjects in public examinations should be improved, so that students can learn with more fun and easily absorb knowledge. So, the Government and this Council should fully support the socially disadvantaged groups, ethnic minorities or families with difficulties. I personally support setting up a commission on children to examine the welfare and well-being of children.
About a commission on children, I wish to say that there were opportunities in the last-term Legislative Council (2008 to 2012) for us to have framentary discussions on similar issues, and they conduced a few concerns in me. Perhaps there are ways to overcome these worries and I just wish to share my views with Honourable colleagues. The reasons for my worries are that, if we just consider the children's perspectives, quite a few recent cases in Hong Kong showed that young people often emphasize individualism and personal rights, and they are less concerned about and they care less about their family members such as elder family members, parents and siblings.
If we only consider the children's perspectives, sometimes problems that we do not think will happen will emerge in the community. A few months ago, my good friend who is a middle-class woman living in Sham Shui Po complained to me. She has three children and her third child, a daughter, is a Secondary Four student. Her daughter told her when she came home one day that her teacher had said she did not need to bother about her mother after she had reached 18. Her mother was agitated and she said, "I support your two elder brothers when they study overseas. If that is your attitude, I am not going to support you. You have to look after yourself after you have reached 18." The daughter unexpectedly told her mother, "In that case, you'd better die sooner. After your death, your property will be mine for it is my legal right." This is a real case of a mother seeking help, which made me a little worried. When we emphasize the well-being of children, we should actually consider the matter from different perspectives.
There are some well-known family tragedies. For example, a 29-year-old young man made plans to kill his parents in collaboration with his classmate. Another 19-year-old young man also followed suit and killed his parents for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3147 unknown reasons. After these incidents, we received a lot of telephone calls from some people and some others called the radio station saying that they selflessly gave everything to their sons in the past but they now need to think about that. Some people said that they would not want to have children after getting married. I hope that Members can fully consider these feelings for if we look at the incidents from different angles we would see that there are different difficulties. This is the power of parental love, and I believe 99% of the parents will act for the best interest of their children though they may have different parenting styles or opinions. I think a family should emphasize solving problems with love and forgiveness instead of resorting to certain systems. In the last-term Council, some Honourable colleagues discussed appropriation for children to initiate legal proceedings, which I disagreed. When the last-term Council discussed the amendments to the Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance, the Government said that it had heard the views of an organization that, if a child, even a primary student said "no", the parents could not even find out more about their children's learning or get their report cards from schools, and they had to seek help from social workers. We subsequently reflected that to Secretary Stephen LAM, and he made the relevant amendments afterwards.
I think all of these are examples of overdoing in righting a wrong. If the Government really sets up a commission on children, I hope it will not only consider the children's perspectives; instead, it should consider the overall perspective and the perspective of the family. Irrespective of whether the Family Council will do the work, the Government should consider the children's perspectives. We should not care about the name of the commission but we should regard the whole family as a unit. At present, I think that it is stressed in Hong Kong that problems can only be solved through struggles. I think that socially disadvantaged families especially need government assistance in terms of resources. Nevertheless, in some families, there is no shortage of resources but there are communication problems among family members. Even worse, members of the family frequently do not know how to have communication, thus the cases that I have just mentioned occurred. Parents do not know how to communicate with their children. They said that they dare not ask their children what games they are playing on the computer at home, and they dare not scold their children. Parents sometimes become very frightened when their children lock themselves in their rooms, but they dare not talk with them.
In these cases, a commission on children or the Family Council should provide assistance, so that family members would care about and understand one 3148 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 another, and they will not deal with differences with improper methods. In society, the family is actually the home base, and everyone wants to get love in the family. I think Honourable colleagues will agree with this point. In discussing the establishment of a commission on children, I also agree that the Family Council has not done enough, so the Government should learn from its mistakes. I have just discussed so many perspectives of a family and it is also said that things are different nowadays. While a commission on children should be set up for children, a commission for parents should also be set up. I think the Family Council should fully consider how it is going to deal with the social phenomena, in relation to children, parents and even siblings, (The buzzer sounded) …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEUNG, your speaking time is up.
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): … and think up how best their well-being can be served. Thank you, President.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): Before speaking in support of Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion, I would like to thank Mr WONG Kwok-hing, for he reminded me of an important thing that I have almost forgotten. Mr WONG Kwok-hing reminded all Legislative Council Members to be mindful of their words and deeds, so that we do not teach children to behave badly. Among all those engaged in politics, who taught children to behave badly? I found this demonstration placard on which it is written, "LEUNG Chun-ying tells lies, he teaches children to behave badly and gets Hong Kong into trouble". So, I thank Mr WONG Kwok-hing for the reminder.
I would also like to thank Dr Fernando CHEUNG. On the International Children's Day, he reminded Members of the Legislative Council and Hong Kong people to urge the Government to attach importance to children's well-being, be concerned about children's affairs, and not to ignore the concluding observations of the the United Nations or shirk responsibilities. As a signatory to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, Hong Kong has the fundamental reponsibility of fulfilling the requirements of the United Nations. Unfortunately, though the United Nations has stated twice in its concluding observations that the SAR Government should set up a commission on children to monitor and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3149 co-ordinate various policies related to children's affairs, the SAR Government has ignored the concluding observations throughout the years. It uses the Children's Rights Forum and the Family Council as its shield, remaining indifferent to the well-being of over 1 million children in Hong Kong. This is clearly a violation of the Convention and dereliction of duty.
For many years, the SAR Government had lacked continuous and integrated planning for children policies. Various areas of work relating to children's affairs including education, welfare, healthcare and health are handled by different policy departments in a piecemeal manner. Children are one of the beneficiaries in the course of social resources allocation, and the Government has not regarded children as the starting point in policy planning or considered their benefits as the most important. In the end, many social policies have not considered the perspectives of children and there is no long-term and holistic planning and monitoring.
I really do not understand one point: the United Nations asks Hong Kong to legislate against discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation but the Government said that this issue is highly controversial. However, when the United Nations asks the SAR Government to set up a commission on children, all Hong Kong people and all Members of the Legislative Council agreed. Why do the authorities still respond that we have the Family Council which is not worthy of its name and a consultation platform led by adults? How can children's perspectives be considered in the course of policy formulation?
Back in June 2007, the Legislative Council already passed Dr Fernnado CHEUNG's motion urging the Government to set up a commission on children. Six years have passed, why is the Government still dragging its heels? What are the controversies? Has the Government resolutely refused to do so? In paragraph 78(A) of its latest concluding observations, the United Nations explicitly recommends that the Government should take measures to address bullying in schools; this is the responsibility that government departments cannot evade. Bullying in schools has been an issue of concern to the community, but the bullying of homosexual students has all along been neglected. In fact, the Government must immediately handle and respond to many actual examples, and it should not be forced to do something only when tragedies have happened.
A few years ago, a student in Taiwan was bullied by his classmates. As his gender temperament was different from the others, he dared not go to the 3150 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 toilet during recess and he often went to the toilet alone five minutes before the end of a class. Unexpectedly, he stumbled when he went to the toilet one day and died there. His death prompted the enactment of the Gender Equity Education Act in Taiwan. How about Hong Kong? The homosexual students in Hong Kong are also bullied by their classmates and rejected by teachers and social workers.
Years ago, the Hong Kong Christian Institute published a "Seeing is believing" case report, which revealed that a female student with relatively strong characters liked to dress up in a more masculine style. When the school found that out, she was referred by the school social worker to a psychiatric doctor, claiming that it was unnatural for her to like people of the same sex. She was asked to receive the so-called "reverse therapy" and she would only be accepted if she liked boys again. During the years she spent at the school, she had constantly been isolated and bullied; she was arranged by the class teacher to sit in a corner; she was not allowed to play basketball which she liked, and she had to meet with the social worker twice a week.
Many tomboys are afraid of being labelled by schools and associated with the stigma, fearing that the schools will thus say that their image corrupt the school spirit or they teach other female students to behave badly, for which they may be expelled from school or forced to leave, depriving them of the opportunities of learning. Growing up in an environment that is extremely intolerant towards different sexual orientations, gender identity, gender expression and gender temperament, children and adolescents will have their physical and mental health adversely affected, which will become a childhood shadow over time that may haunt their whole life.
The Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau has no intention of responding to what the United Nations has asked the SAR Government to do, but I still urge the SAR Government to try to deal with the difficulties encountered by homosexual students bullied at schools. At the meeting of the Panel on Constitutional Affairs on Monday, I asked the Under Secretary, LAU Kong-wah, a related question, and he replied that the authorities had established the Advisory Group on Eliminating Discrimination against Sexual Minorities, and he asked me to have discussions on that platform. The Advisory Group meets once every three months, even if the subject is included on the agenda, it is just an advisory group after all, and I do not know who will follow up the issues discussed.
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This is a real problem found in different schools. The schools are often unco-operative. Even if voluntary agencies want to study bullying in schools, in particular, bullying of students with different sexual orientations in schools, the schools are unwilling to co-operate. It is because they will be labelled once it is found that there is bullying in their schools. Hence, these voluntary agencies conducted online questionnaire surveys through voluntary filling out of questionnaires and collected a lot of information.
Criticizing the Government for adopting a piecemeal approach is flattering the SAR Government too much because it has even failed to adopt piecemeal solutions. When a person complains about headache, the Government tells him that there is a pain commission that will have discussions on pain in the arms and legs, stomach, back or heart, and it will eventually discuss headache. We all know that setting up a commission will not solve the problems, but the failure to set up a commission will only cause people to shirk responsibilities and leave problems unsolved.
Bullying in schools is a daily problem and we cannot wait any longer. I hope the SAR Government will not wait until some students are injured or dead because of bullying in schools to agree to deal with this problem. Though the Government feels wronged and acts rashly in refusing to set up a commission on children, we can have further discussions, yet, bullying in schools, especially bullying of sexual minorities must be adressed squarely by the Policy Bureaux, especially the Education Bureau. This is a real problem and the Government must not feel wronged and act rashly.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I would like to thank Dr Fernando CHEUNG for moving this motion, which has allowed the Legislative Council to follow up this important day on the point that the SAR Government has neglected children's rights for a long time. The Neo Democrats have been fighting for the implementation of the the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child by the Government (the Convention), and the formulation of comprehensive children policies. However, nearly 20 years since the application of the Convention to Hong Kong in 1994, the Government has still not attached importance to children's rights, and the Legislative Council needs to constantly strive for the setting up of a commission on children to monitor children's rights.
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Today, I will focus on a few types of children, including poor children, enthnic minority children, cross-boundary children born to non-local parents and children in North District. And I am going to use their problems to illustrate how unsatisfactory and framentary the existing government policies on the protection of children are, which is really unfair to children in Hong Kong.
The UN Convention ensures that all children in Hong Kong have equal opportunities to receive education and develop their potential. Today, children in Hong Kong face the pressure of competition for school places and learning, and they experience a lot of difficulties in the course of growing up. We have recently seen that young children living in North District face very fierce competition for school places even before they attend kindergartens. If they fail the interviews, they may have to travel across districts for schooling, which greatly affects the allocation of time for learning, playing and resting, and also affects the rights of local children of receiving education.
There are now up to 200 000 "doubly non-permanent resident children", and as the Government has said, we do not know when they will come to Hong Kong, how they will come here, how long they are going to stay and when they are going to leave. The Government has not got any contingency and support measures in case all "doubly non-permanent resident children" to come to Hong Kong for schooling. This will undoubtedly make such children a time bomb in our education policy. Furthermore, given the lack of school places and supporting education facilities, local students cannot go to school in the original districts, and "doubly non-permanent resident children" are subject to tremendous social pressure, which is definitely unfair to children in North District and the "doubly non-permanent resident children".
Even if young children have successfully got school places, they have to face increasing difficulties and the learning process is very difficult, especially for children growing up in poor families. The learning process is very difficult as I just mentioned because poor families lack resources to support learning and social activities, so that the physical and mental development of children are affected. For example, they may have low self-esteem. According to a questionnaire survey conducted by the Boys' and Girls' Clubs Association of Hong Kong in 2008, nearly 45% of the poor children had not taken part in any school and extra-curricular activities, more than double the proportion of ordinary children. Poor families could not afford different learning activities such as adventure training and leadership training camps, as a result children failed to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3153 meet the "Other Learning Experiences" requirement under the current New Senior Secondary academic structure, which indirectly affected the opportunity of poor children to further their studies. However, we have not yet seen any specific government policy to remedy the situation and to provide adequate and appropriate assistance to poor children, such as providing allowances for participation in extra-curricular activities. In that case, they cannot learn together with other children on an equal basis, and the Government's attitude really makes a lot of Hong Kong people sigh with regret.
Having discussed poor children, I would like to say that the learning difficulties of ethnic minority children have always been evaded by the Government. The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child has criticized in its concluding observations the system of "designated schools" and described this system as "de facto discrimination", different from the discrimination in Dr Fernando CHEUNG's mind. However, the Government unexpectedly said in response to the concluding observations that "it is therefore very much a personal decision of non-Chinese speaking (NCS) parents to send their children to a school admitting more NCS students" and "it is not a design of the HKSAR Government to have a school becoming a "designated school" to enroll more NCS students. It is rather a result of parental choice.". The Government's argument is totally irresponsible and cold-blooded, which sufficiently shows that the Government ignores the learning difficulties faced by ethnic minority children.
It is precisely because the Government has not provided pre-school Chinese Language training that many ethnic minority children study in "designated schools" for their Chinese Language standard is not high and they have no choice. The Chairman of the Equal Opportunities Commission wrote an article earlier criticizing these "designated schools" for separating NCS students from mainstream students, which is not conducive to integration and makes it impossible for ethnic minority students to learn Chinese effectively. In addition, the Government uses the same Chinese Language curriculum and testing system for the assessment of NCS students, such that NCS students admitted to undergraduate programmes last year only accounted for less than 1% of the total number of students admitted to undergraduate programmes via JUPAS. Under the current education system, it is basacially impossible for ethnic minority students to pursue higher education equally and break away from the fate of inter-generational poverty.
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President, I would like to point out that the issues of children competing for kindergarten places in North District, children in poverty or ethnic minority students highlighted that the Government has not done enough in terms of its education policy. The Neo Democrats support Dr Fernando CHEUNG's original motion on "setting up a commission on children" and the amendments of Ms Claudia MO and Dr Kenneth CHAN. I urge the Government to do a good job, and protect our younger generation well, so that children from different classes and family background can have an equal learning environment and equal opportunities of development.
President, I so submit.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, I support the motion proposed by Dr Fernando CHEUNG urging the Government to set up a commission on children and formulate a comprehensive child policy based on children's perspectives. I also support that such a commission should examine the laws, the allocation of resources and various administrative measures of Hong Kong, so that children's well-being are taken care of in the public administration of the SAR Government.
Why is it that adults cannot take care of children's well-being and a commission on children has to be established? The reason is that the perspectives of adults and children are indeed different. Educational psychologists for children will ask adults to speak with children in a squatting instead of a standing position because the latter is too intimidating to children. The child has to raise his or her head to look at the speaker. If one wants to communicate with children, one has to humble oneself and make contact with them at the same eye-level. In this way, children will trust the adult.
At a certain stage in the growing process of a child, we may notice an obvious watershed which shows us that the perspectives of the child have all along been different from those of the adult, and that is the time when the child grows to a height just tall enough to see the things on the table. To the child, the world has become totally different from the one before he/she grew to that height when all that could be seen was under the table. Therefore, if adults believe they can take care of children's needs and build their confidence up based on how they themselves perceive and feel, they must have forgotten how they have grown up and that would really be an inadequacy on their part.
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Therefore, handling children's affairs would actually give us a good chance to maintain our childlike innocence, so that we adults who have grown to our heights can play a smaller, more humble and weaker role again and look at the world from their position. In this way, we can take care of children. However, there are too many examples of neglect of the needs of children by our society. I will give a very obvious example. Is there any special grab handle for children in the compartments of MTR trains on which we travel every day? The answer is: Surely not. At present, the grab handles provided are only those which cannot be used by people under the height of 4 feet 10 inches, and apart from those, there are only grab poles along the central passageway of each compartment. However, when the train is full, there is nowhere safe in the compartment where children can escape from being crammed into a dangerous position under the rucksack of an adult.
Our society has not taken children's perspectives into account in the provision of public facilities. Therefore, we have to propose the establishment of a commission on children the composition of which should include not only professionals who are capable of taking care of children, but also a certain number of adolescents, so that the opinions and perspectives of children will be heard by adults. Although Dr Priscilla LEUNG said earlier that she did not agree to an approach which respects children's perspectives, Article 13 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) states that children have the freedom of expression. The Convention also states that information should be disseminated with a children's version so that children will know their rights. This is because children do not only have the right to live, they also have the right to development and the right of participation.
Through participating in social affairs, children can develop their potentials and talents by building up their confidence so that they will be brave enough to speak with adults. On policies which concern them, they can state the reasons why schoolbags should not be too heavy, why electronic books should be used and why they should be allowed to bring mobile phones to school. These are issues which adults do not understand.
Furthermore, children have the right of participation because adolescents are capable of expressing themselves. Much attention is paid overseas to the ability of children to express their opinions and some international campaigns have actually been initiated by children. For example, an anti-mosquito 3156 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 campaign was initiated by a child aged under 10 by writing a letter to Bill GATES asking him to sponsor the provision of mosquito nets for the use of children in Africa. In some overseas countries, adults will not ignore children but will listen to them, seriously consider giving them funding, allocating resources to them and assisting them in implementing their proposals in co-operation with the government. After all, children are often the best persons to identify the needs of children, something which adults cannot do.
Putting in place a centralized mechanism with a commission on children can also guard against formulating various policies merely for the convenience of adults without considering the development of children. Take school drug testing as an example. The Government has only considered the matter from the security point of view without considering the self-dignity of adolescents. Let us consider another example. In parenting education, parents will not be told that children actually have the right to play. The parenting education in Hong Kong only trains parents how to communicate with their children for the ultimate purpose of enabling them to drive and tempt their children into doing things such as learning to play the violin, doing revisions or preparing for examinations. Even in an advertisement which shows a child and an adult carrying a violin rushing from one place to another, the child is depicted as benevolently bestowed with a hamburger treat in between an interest class and a tutorial session.
If we formulate policies only from the perspectives of adults, the policies will be distorted and children will become products of policies designed for the convenience of adults. Even in the issue of kindergartens, parents often think that they must fight for a kindergarten place for their children, but that is actually a misconception. Under many good education systems, children of that age do not go to kindergartens at all because what they need is play. They need to play because that is how they learn. In Scandinavia, children are not encouraged to go to kindergartens and some of the countries even have laws forbidding children to do so. However, in Hong Kong, parents of underprivileged families have to work and so they have no choice but to send their children to kindergartens.
Therefore, President, it is necessary for us to set up a commission on children (The buzzer sounded) … and examine all the policies from the perspectives of children …
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms HO, your speaking time is up.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): Thank you, President.
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, as a father of two children, one 14 years old and the other nine, I am very supportive of Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion to establish a commission on children.
In 1989, the United Nations passed the Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) which was the first legally binding international convention passed by it. To date, 190 countries have become signatories. As a state party to the Convention, Hong Kong shall fulfil its obligations under the Convention.
When we review the history of this Council, we will notice that in 1991, a Member proposed that there was a need to establish a commission on children and in 1995, another Member proposed a motion on the protection of children. During the debates, Members of this Council urged the Government to expeditiously establish a legal framework to protect children.
I feel very disappointed that after many years, it seems that the Government has still been ignoring the voices of children and thinks that it can make decisions for children in everything. In fact, children nowadays have their own ideas at a very young age. Hence, we have to listen to and respect their views and take note of their preferences.
I think Hong Kong is facing two serious situations which call for the expeditious establishment of a commission on children. According to a study conducted by the Central Policy Unit in 2010, the number of child abuse cases has risen by 87% compared to that in 2001, which is a grave concern. In addition, I think more care should be given to underprivileged children (particularly grass-roots children) so that they will have opportunities of developing their potentials fully. In 2012, Hong Kong Institute of Education estimated that there were about 275 000 children in poverty in Hong Kong, in other words, one in every four children was living in poverty. The World Health Organization also pointed out in 2010 that children would face a greater risk of abuse when there was inequality in the community or society. Under such 3158 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 circumstances, therefore, the Government should not neglect the well-being of children and say that the issues could be dealt with under the existing framework.
As Members have also mentioned earlier, the Government has a surplus of almost $700 billion and my calculation is right, it is $700 billion and not $10,000 plus. Therefore, if there is any inadequacy in administration, it will not be a question of mismatch of the demand for services with the available resources. Unavailability of resources cannot be used as an excuse for not providing services. Such a reason will be totally unacceptable.
At present, the Government's policies and mechanisms in resolving problems of children only focus on dealing with the consequences resulted from the neglect of children's interests of the policies on children (for example, cases of child abuse). They do not get to the root of the problem. Protecting the rights of children should be considered not only as the individual responsibility of the family or members of the public, it should be the responsibility of the Government as well. However, the Government has not fulfilled this basic responsibility and underprivileged children (including children living under the poverty line, children of ethnic minorities, children with disabilities and children who are subject to abuse) are particularly affected. They have to face great challenges in living every day.
Let me talk about the "purely consultative framework" mentioned by the Government. The Government often says that it has established various frameworks and bodies to handle children's affairs, but if we look at them carefully, we will find that the Government is actually "preaching one thing but doing quite another". We have the Commission on Youth in Hong Kong, but it only serves adolescents aged 15 to 24 and its activities mainly focus on visits to Mainland China which can be considered as a tool for state affairs education. However, has the Government considered the welfare of children under the age of 15? How should we treat these children? The Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau holds three Children's Rights Forums every year, but have any follow-up actions been taken after the conclusion of the Forums? I think it is really inadequate that there is no established mechanism to follow up on them.
The Government often says that there is no need to establish a commission on children because it has already set up the Family Council which advises the Government on family policies. In fact, relationships in a family can be very complicated and the Family Council has to handle a large number of problems, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3159 including problems between husband and wife, parents and children or even problems of the elderly members of the family. Therefore, the Family Council cannot concentrate on handling issues on children's welfare.
As Ms Cyd HO said earlier, "losing at the starting line" is now one of the most popular sayings and so people have imposed all sorts of heavy burdens on children. As a result, children have become pathetic. My daughter who is a Form Three student this year said to me a few days ago, "Dad, the parents nowdays are really formidable. Had my former classmates of the previous school been as awesome as the Form One students here, I could not even gain admission into this school.".
Parents nowadays are really formidable. Even when their children are in kindergarten, they would make arrangements for them to attend one kindergarten in the morning and another in the afternoon. President, I think we should enact legislation to forbid such acts. Why do parents make arrangements for their children to attend one kindergarten in the morning and another in the afternoon? Honestly, I have a friend who does this. If we do not legislate against this, how can we forbid such behaviour?
Speaking of other countries, India established the National Commission for Protection of Child Rights in 2007. The Chinese Government also set up the National Working Committee on Women and Children under the State Council in 1990. If we surf the web, we will find that the Unit has established the Office of the Children's Commissioner which only has an annual funding of about $30 million. Therefore, I hope (The buzzer sounded) …
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, your speaking time is up.
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): … yes. President, I so submit.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, I feel ashamed to give this speech here today because six years ago, Dr Fernando CHEUNG and I did our utmost in relation to the same motion. That motion was passed six years ago and today, six years down the line, the Government remains unmoved. You can see how the Government has treated us today. The Secretary for Constitutional and 3160 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Mainland Affairs Bureau is the only one sitting in this Chamber and that is all. Other Policy Bureaux such as the Education Bureau and the Food and Health Bureau which are closely involved with the issues concerning children, seem to think that they have nothing to do with this motion and have not even shown the sincerity of listening to our views.
Hong Kong is an extremely affluent society and it occupies a leading position in prosperity not only in Asia but in the world. However, according to our figures, one fourth of our children are living under the poverty line. I shall not repeat points already made, but I would only raise one problem which we have noticed for a long time but turned a blind eye to it. This problem is the children's right to learn, particularly for children with learning difficulties.
Studies all over the world will tell us that about 10% or more of all the children have learning difficulties. Has the Government attached any importance to this group of children? If these children need an assessment, they would have to wait for a minimum of 14 months and in the worst cases, they have to wait for more than two years. If some of them have to wait for follow-up services after the assessment, what will the Government do for them? The only thing that the Education Bureau will do is to offer a funding of about $20,000 per year to each school for assisting the children or implementing integrated education. However, all the schools or even the principals will use the funding in their own ways. Some will buy books, some will buy computers and some even use the funding for renovation, to cite just a few examples. In the end, these children will remain in dire straits, not receiving the care they deserve at all.
Second, I would like to talk about children with disabilities. Article 23 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) states clearly that "Children who have any kind of disability have the right to special care and support, as well as all the rights in UNCRC, so that they can live full and independent lives". The provision is there, but has the Government done anything? Under the present circumstances, how long more do children with disabilities have to wait to get a hostel place, a training placement or a school place? How long more do they have to wait to receive continual training at a skills centre after graduation from schools? None of these is available. Hence, many parents and their children with disabilities are enduring all sorts of disgrace in their communities for the sake of survival every day.
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Meanwhile, our society is extremely affluent. We can spend more than $10 billion on many other things without blinking an eye, including infrastructure, impressive architectural structures and grandiose window-dressing projects. Our Government has indeed done a lot of these things. The Government is not at all stringent in spending on mega events such as organizing shows performed by world-famous stars and golf tournaments; it has not saved the slightest amount of money on these events. However, children and underprivileged children in particular, the most needy and helpless people who do not know how to make their voices heard, are neglected.
In fact, the demands proposed are very simple and will not cause any dynastic changes in the Government. They are merely aspirations that the Government will establish a commission on children with statutory powers and allocate public resources to create the post of Commissioner for Children. Many signatories of the Convention have already been carrying out such work for many years.
I remember that several years ago, when the Children's Commissioner of New Zealand (the Commissioner) was interviewed during his visit in Hong Kong, we realized that New Zealand had carried out such work although it had a smaller population and its government was not as rich as ours. That is worthy reference for Hong Kong. Although the Commissioner has had a discussion with the SAR Government during the visit, nothing happened afterwards.
President, that will only be a first step. It is a step which will make the public urge officials of different Policy Bureaux including the Education Bureau, the Food and Health Bureau and the Home Affairs Bureau which are absent today to care for the children of the most underprivileged and helpless families. Why have we attached so much importance to them? As we all know, it is because children are our future.
Recently, the Chief Secretary for Administration has produced a report of the Steering Committee on Population Policy which made us caught between tears and laughter. She often said how pathetic she was, that she came from a poor family, lived in a partitioned room in Wan Chai and had to do her homework in a standing position. However, has she paid any attention to those children who are now in the same situation as she was? Are there any way out for the families of these 200 000 children? In formulating population policies, the Government has arrived at the conclusion of labour importation, what kind of 3162 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 rationale is that? By adopting such an attitude, producing such a report and formulating such a policy in response to the needs of the society, the Government has shown that it is mentally retarded. If that is not an anti-intellect society, it will be a mentally retarded one. If that is not an anti-intellect government, what kind of a government will it be?
When I heard the opening speech delivered by the Secretary earlier, I was absolutely disappointed. He was not even able to summon the courage to face the question squarely. It is surprising to hear the terribly ridiculous claim that family affairs are the same as the rights of children. That is even contrary to basic logic. Is there a lack of money, ability and manpower in the Government? The answer is negative for all three. What the Government lacks is the will, determination and vision and, last but not least, basic conscience.
I do not know whether after another six or seven years after the passage of this motion today, the Legislative Council will propose such a motion for discussion again and the Government will still be making no headway, just like what is happening with the constitutional reform of Hong Kong … I so submit in support of Dr Fernando CHEUNG's original motion.
Thank you, President.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): President, it is not difficult to realize that when candidates run in the election of the highest leader in many countries, their election platforms will not only speak of the present, but also the future. The contents may include how to reduce carbon footprint, how to achieve sustainable development, and so on. A very important aspect which will surely be included is how the country is going to care for their children and their young people who are the masters of their future, because children and young people represent the future of a country. However, applying this kind of logic, Hong Kong will not have much of a future if we consider how the Government led by LEUNG Chun-ying as the Chief Executive is treating the children and the young people of Hong Kong.
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President, the British Government extended the application of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) to Hong Kong in 1994. Since China had been a signatory to the Convention for a long time, the Convention and certain saving provisions continued to apply to Hong Kong after the reunification starting from 1 July 1997. According to the Convention, a "child" is a person below the age of 18, unless the laws of a particular place have defined the term differently. The Convention contains 54 articles which state various kinds of children's rights, including the most basic rights such as the right to live, the right to full development, the right to protection and the right to participate in family, cultural and social life.
As early as 2005, the United Nations already pointed out after examining the report on the Convention submitted by Hong Kong that, and I quote, "Hong Kong should adopt a holistic and comprehensive approach towards policy-making with regard to matters relating to children; the Government should set up a Children's Commission with broad authority, and enact a single piece of legislation to protect children's rights.". The Legislative Council also passed a motion in 2007 urging the Government to establish a commission on children. However, to date, the Government is still using the Family Council as an excuse, claiming that children are part of the family and the formulation of family-focused policies can already protect the well-being of children. At present, when the Government formulates policies concerning children, it will only indicate vaguely that the best interests of the child will be considered and the co-ordination of the policies will be handled by the Policy Committee only. Without a dedicated commission to handle the policies concerning children, such work will lack initiative and co-ordination.
The establishment of a commission on children will serve the purpose of putting the focus on children. Such a commission can take the initiative and actively request the Government to formulate policies for protecting children in such areas as education, medical services, housing, family violence and financial protection. The commission can also monitor the progress of policy implementation and co-ordinate the provision of different services for children. President, if the Government's logic stands (that is, children's rights can be properly taken care of by the Family Council), I believe the Government can immediately abolish the Elderly Commission, the Women's Commission and the Commission on Youth because the elderly, women and young people are certainly members of the family too. Why is it necessary to establish so many commissions? We talk about the need to respect women and implement gender 3164 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 mainstreaming because we have to consider the needs of women from their perspectives. The same rationale applies to children and we have to consider matters from the perspectives of children.
Since the establishment of the Family Council in 2007, there has been no apparent improvement in children's rights. Let us look at the latest figures of child abuse. According to the Social Welfare Department, there were 489 cases of child abuse from January to June this year. Hence, the projection will be 978 cases a year, which will be an increase compared with 894 cases last year. President, if LEUNG Chun-ying's Government continues to use the Family Council as an excuse to reject the proposal of establishing a commission on children, it is tantamount to continued trampling on children's rights and trampling on the future of Hong Kong.
The Civic Party has recently put forward four proposals in relation to the implementation of the Convention by the SAR Government. First, set up a commission on children. Second, accept the recommendation in paragraph 11 of the report of the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child to adopt a children-focused approach so that co-ordinated and comprehensive observations and analyses can be made on the policies and measures concerning children's needs to produce a set of visions, policies and plans of actions tailor-made for children. Third, integrate children of ethnic minorities and non-Chinese-speaking backgrounds into the mainstream education system. Fourth, take care of the basic needs of children who are torture claimants and asylum seekers.
President, as children are the masters of the future of Hong Kong, we certainly hope that the SAR Government will really establish a commission on children. It is better late than never. Although I have expressed my wish, it will be hard to fulfil under the LEUNG Chun-ying's Government which has no resolution, suffers from a low popularity rating and lacks any commitment at all.
The Civic Party supports the original motion and the other amendments proposed today. I so submit.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, a similar motion was passed in 2007, but what has the Government given us? It has given us a forum. The Government certainly has a good sense of humour because this Council is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3165 already a forum. It is a political forum which has passed a motion urging the Government to act, but the Government has given the children a forum instead. Buddy, you are a government official no matter what people say and as you are sitting here today, you would be monitored. If there is no commission on children and no commissioner for children, who would be there to receive complaints?
The response given by the Government today is a standardized one. When you ask him "A", he will give an answer to "A". Since we are having a discussion on the United Nations Convention on Human Rights, the Government has treated it as an issue under the purview of the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau and sent Raymond TAM to attend this debate. Buddy, we are discussing a number of issues including poverty, child abuse, hostels and special education, and yet the high officials of the different disciplines have not attended this debate. There is only one point the Government has made in its answer and that is, we are stirring up trouble because it has already established the Family Council to handle children's problems.
Nowadays, the system of the nuclear family is disintegrating, otherwise the Government did not have to establish the Family Council. If a family is complete and self-sufficient, as Dr Priscilla LEUNG whose speech is often less than clear told us, a self-sufficient system is already perfect and no conflict will arise. If parents can render meticulous care to their children and completely understand them, if they understand the way their children think after their reception of the current education provided by our society and are aware of their needs, we certainly do not have to establish a commission on children. But I have to ask a question. As so many people have been divorced and the system of the family has broken, from which standpoint should we consider the matter now? I think we should consider the matter from the standpoint of the well-being of the child and respect his ideas and needs, given the circumstances of the society. How respect in these areas should be materialized will be a question for the commission on children to be established and the commissioner for children should be accountable to us.
To put it simply, I want to ask the Secretary a question. After the SAR Government has been established, it has set up certain commissions from time to time, such as the Elderly Commission. TUNG Chee-hwa appointed Mr TAM Yiu-chung as Chairman who had messed things up and so I had to launch a filibuster to fight for the implementation of universal retirement protection. 3166 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Later, Antony LEUNG was appointed as Chairman of the Education Commission which resulted in a great disaster and the destruction caused is still with us today. Subsequently, a commission on housing was set up and do you know who was responsible for it? It was surely LEUNG Chun-ying. He was certainly responsible. Although these three commissions have not achieved anything, we have let the Government off; although the Government has proposed to develop the so-called six priority industries, we have let it off; but regarding Dr Fernando CHEUNG's humble proposal to set up a commission on children in 2007, will the Government tell us whether it will do it or not? The Secretary must answer this question. He has to explain to everyone in Hong Kong who is now watching the television broadcast these questions: If the Government is to set up yet another commission, that is, a commission on children, for the purpose of implementing the obligations stated in the 54 Articles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention), will any harm will be done to the children of Hong Kong? Will any harm be done to the adults? Can he explain whether the establishment of a commission on children will make the work of the Family Council more difficult or easier? The responsibility of resolving problems which can be handled by the commission on children can then be removed from the Family Council.
To put it simply, people have doubts about the Family Council now. The Government considers that it should also handle children's affairs, but the Chairman of the Council said he was not aware of that. Buddy, the Family Council is vested with multiple functions and has to deal with a variety of problems. It has to put all the problems into a big jar, just like what my mother did when I was a child. She put all the left-over food into a big pot of marinating sauce. It is not a skill for cooking any good dish at all; she simply put all the left-over food into a big pot. The Secretary should give us an explanation here. If he said that the Government has already resolved the problems through the Family Council, can he show us the report card? Is there any record of achievement? Can he explain to us later? How many meetings have the Council held? How many problems have been dealt with? There are 54 Articles in the Convention, how many of these have been implemented? None? If that is the answer to all of the questions, tell him to shut up and get lost.
Therefore, President, children are only subjects and not individual entities to some Members. Sometimes they say, without children, no money will be made. Sometimes they say young people have not lived up to their expectations. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3167
Many Members of this Council also say that young people nowadays are incapable. Buddy, they are people brought up under the family model advocated by you. These children have been influenced by the old values of the nuclear family. They are educated by parents of the nuclear family. How can you reprimand them?
I hope the Secretary can respond to these questions later: When will the Government establish a commission on children? When will it create the office of a commissioner for children? President, a friend of mine told me that one would understand a person from the way he or she treated a child. That is also true of a government. You will understand a government clearly from the way it treats its people and their children.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): President, we have proposed to establish a commission on children on the basis that it is a responsibility stipulated by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention). Certainly, we understand that many governments (including the Hong Kong SAR Government) often consider that issues of protecting children's rights can be discussed jointly in other committees. However, if that is correct, why will the Convention stipulate that a commission on children specializing in handling children's affairs is to be established? The reason is very simple. The experience of many countries and places has shown that if we consider the question from the perspective and viewpoint of protecting children's rights, the establishment of a commission specializing in children's affairs can really handle matters in a more comprehensive and detailed manner.
I have met some people who do not necessarily agree that there is a need to establish such a commission. There are others who even think that if the commission on children under discussion should comprise of many members who are children or relatively young, they would doubt if good suggestions can be provided for the Government to consider. However, in recent years, considering the young people who have expressed their opinions on the Internet, or even well-known representative figures including Joshua WONG who belongs to a body which opposes national education … Let me give an example. If Joshua WONG becomes a member of a commission on children or another commission of a higher level, the situation will be very different from having a commission which comprises only of social workers, teachers and parents because Joshua is experiencing certain development processes. We can surely provide good 3168 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 suggestions and promote the well-being of children, but the commission should really include members who are actually undergoing stages of development themselves.
Certainly, children who are developing may not … to be honest, there will be some out of a hundred developing children who cannot provide any suggestions at all, or are not interested in joining such commissions. However, there will be children who are considered bright and excellent by many and are remarkable among children of the same age group. I am sure there are. Here, I do not mean the gifted children, because the mental development of gifted children will sometimes be incongruent with their intelligence. However, among children of the same age group, the performance of some will be amazing. Whether it is a result of the children's own efforts or the education provided by their parents or teachers, these children can really master what is happening in society. In particular, they can give an accurate and succinct account of their personal circumstances and recent experience without which we may not be able to understand how they feel. They can express things well enough for us to understand the real situation fully. In addition, as they are telling us the real situation from their personal experience, their accounts will be very different from those of the people who are supposed to know the situation, although this latter group of people may teach, handle children's problems and provide counselling every day. When the account of a situation comes from a child, it will be different indeed.
President, in the past, as I thought I might not have any children, I have had nine godchildren. Now I have a daughter who is two years old. Even as a legislator, I can feel the change. In the past, I was responsible for issues relating to security, law, planning and lands, housing redevelopment, and so on. Now that I have a child of my own, I can consider issues including children's development and education more thoroughly from my personal experience. While I can do such work, I have also noticed some very outstanding secondary school students. They have not only strong debating skills … sometimes when I observed the mock Council debates and exchanges, I was shocked by the performance of the students. I believe the President may have participated in these mock Council meetings too. There are indeed many bright children.
Furthermore, children can really tell us what issues they are facing because of their age. So, if a commission on children specializing in children's affairs is established, will it cause any problem to the Government? I guess the only point the Government will raise is that such an establishment will be a duplication of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3169 structure and efforts. But even if such a commission is established to receive more views, it will still be up to the Government to decide ultimately whether to adopt them, will it not? If so, why do we not receive more views and particularly, the views of young people? That is something I really cannot understand.
Lastly, regarding the proposal of Dr Kenneth CHAN to "convene summits annually on children development policies and strategies", I think it is too frequent to convene such summits annually, but certainly, the spirit is to meet regularly so that the time gap between two summits will not be too long. It will be a high-level meeting attended by department heads in which collective wisdom can be drawn on and serious consideration given to the issues involved. We support this spirit, but we have some reservations about whether the summits should be convened annually.
MR WONG YUK-MAN (in Cantonese): President, as early as 1997, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) was already applied to Hong Kong. However, like other covenants such as the International Covenant on Human Rights and the International Labour Convention, they are nothing more than pieces of paper. Children's rights have all along not been given serious attention in Hong Kong. This can be seen from the education system of Hong Kong and the pathetic circumstances of marginalized and underprivileged children.
Although Hong Kong is an affluent society with a per capita income of more than US$30,000, it has not respected the spirit of justice in providing welfare and protection to underprivileged children. The responsibility of care and the heavy living burden of children suffering from congenital diseases and serious disabilities fall solely on the shoulders of their parents. Places in hostels are grossly inadequate, and so are the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA), Social Security Allowance and other forms of assistance. Although non-government organizations have been making demands for years, not any progress has been made.
There is a special product of Hong Kong called "the same pot of rice". Secretary, do you know what that is? It means children receiving CSSA have to pay for the expenses of their parents who do not have the right of abode in Hong Kong and all of them have to share the CSSA payment. This is the meaning of "the same pot of rice". These families have to face serious pressure in living. 3170 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Although the Family Council has been established, it is not useful because the parents have to work long hours and do not have much time to spend with their children. Therefore, after discussing with my wife, I will seriously consider not to stand in the next Legislative Council Election when this term is over. I had better take care of my grandson.
My grandson is pitiful. He has to do eight pieces of homework every day. Although he is a Primary One student, he has to do eight pieces of homework every day. The teacher asked him to copy the characters on the blackboard which were but scribbles. If he failed to complete three or four pieces of homework, the teacher would write reminders in red in his handbook. He may taste defeat every day even though he is only a student. After he has succeeded in completing all the homework on time with much toil, he will have a dictation in a few days or a test in a week. That is really crazy! He is undergoing a very pathetic development process. At the very mention of his experience, I do not even want to continue with my speech. How pitiful that is!
Under the mainstream education system of Hong Kong, parents will collaborate with the schools to oppress their own children. That is the current situation and it really makes one angry. Fortunately, all of my three sons received their education in the United States because I had some money back then. Otherwise, it will be terrible. The children of high-ranking officials and senior civil servants do not have to receive education which suppresses the development of children because all of them are studying overseas or in international schools. Do you know how much the school fee for international schools is? Sometimes when I see children who belong to a different category, I feel pity for them. Once, I met my grandson carrying his schoolbag on his shoulders and I asked him if he liked schooling. He answered "yes", but added that it would be best if there were no homework. This is misery beyond words.
Honestly, whether we are considering the current education system or the families in poverty under discussion … there was this incident and it is my experience. The teacher of the school asked me whether my grandson had dyslexia and said that an assessment would be conducted first. What? Dyslexia? He is even smarter than me. He can find the movies which he likes to watch from the Internet and he can play electronic games. Dyslexia, buddy? It is unimaginable that after seeing the rather untidy characters that my grandson has written, the teacher would say that an assessment would be conducted to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3171 ascertain whether he has dyslexia. Whenever I think about this matter, I will feel frustrated.
Children nowadays are compelled to participate in many extra-curricular activities for the purpose of "winning at the starting line". Children are compelled to acquire a multitude of skills and they have to learn everything, but they are only six years old! I consider these practices as inflicting violence on children.
We are actually training our children to become people who can memorize but not analyse. We only ask them to memorize things to prepare for their examinations without helping them to develop the power to think. We sometimes jokingly say ― and I have noticed some of the attendants here are women ― that women have good memory and poor analytical ability and vice versa for men. Children nowadays have similar characteristics. As parents want them to have superb memory, they are required to recite things perfectly, but their analytical power is almost non-existent.
Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion ― actually we have discussed the subject of children's rights many times ― is something which we will certainly support. If a commission on children is established, many policies and measures do not have to proceed under the present system or they may proceed without waiting for any refinement or revision of the present system. People often say that "Children are the masters of society in the future", but the existing systems and policies will actually, to put it bluntly, destroy your children and the next generation.
This subject is under the purview of the Secretary, but he does not have the relevant knowledge. How much does he know about children? I have no idea. The existing systems of education and CSSA … How much does the Secretary know about children with special learning needs, for example, children with learning difficulties, children with emotional and behavioural problems, autistic children, children with hyperactivity disorder or children with dyslexia? The existing systems cannot help all of these children, and you are even driving ordinary children crazy.
The Government has to establish systems and formulate policies to assist children with dyslexia and learning difficulties and facilitate their development. "Having special learning needs" only mean that the learning methods of these 3172 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 children and the ways how their brains work are different from ordinary children. The Government should never consider them as abnormal and treat the matter in a perfunctory manner by formulating some policies which do not matter if they exist or not.
The development of our future generation depends on whether the Government will remain indifferent. If it does not amend the existing policies, particularly the education system … honestly, I really detest the existing education system. Whenever I find that my grandson has eight pieces of homework to do, I will feel agitated. Is that reasonable? Making a six-year-old child write so much will seriously hurt his hand.
Thank you, President.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK: Currently, there are about 1.1 million people aged below 18 in Hong Kong. They do not yet have the right to vote, so how can they channel their views effectively? Only a dedicated institution can ensure that their views are properly considered and addressed. We all love our children and grandchildren, we want their views to be heard and respected. That is why we spend time talking to and communicating with them. I really hope that our government officials will abandon their bureaucratic thinking and put themselves into the shoes of our children and parents. You are also parents, possibly grandfathers like me. Taking our children's well-being into consideration, the SAR Government should step up to establish a Commission on Children.
Years have been spent ― "spent" I repeat ― on fighting to establish a commission on children. On 8 June 2007, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, whom I highly respect, moved the very same motion, for which I spoke to give my heartfelt support. I told my daughters they should not be disheartened or discouraged if that failed. They should keep up the good work and have faith in what they are doing. That is why my daughter is up there listening.
However, six years have passed, and we are still trapped in a stalemate, with the Government's responses remaining shamefully stubborn and discouraging. The reply made by the Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs in September 2007, and the reply to Ms Emily LAU's oral question last month were depressingly similar. I have the impression that the upcoming LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3173 speech to be made by the Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs will consist of the same old rubbish, since the SAR Government believes that "there is no imminent need to establish a Commission on Children".
Without doubt, opinions differ on whether there is an "imminent need", purely depending on one's values. Though the establishment of a Commission on Children is not a requirement for the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, it is a hard fact that over 70 countries and 200 places in the world have established their Commission on Children or Children's Ombudsman, allowing children to express their views on issues ranging from educational policy and social facilities to playgrounds and children's hospitals, among others.
The SAR Government insists that the current arrangements for handling children's affairs are functioning well, and give the Government flexibility to address the concerns of the various sectors on children's matters. With great respect, I cannot agree to this thinking. President, does the Government mean that no improvement or resolution can be made to ease this problem encountered by our children, who are our leaders of tomorrow? Should we not "honour old people as we do our own aged parents and care for other's children as one's own"? Raymond, if officials, like yourself, care for our citizens' children as their own, I strongly believe that they would see the need to establish a Commission on Children to handle the many problems faced by our children.
President, the SAR Government keeps reminding us about the threat posed by our rapidly ageing population. One in four in 2030 is as an old man. The Administration is now consulting the public on effective measures to help people create and raise a family. However, I am not overly optimistic about the outlook for boosting local birth rate. High living costs, delayed marriages, high education fees and an unwillingness to become parents, all contribute to today's extremely low birth rate. Parents not only support their children economically, they also need to consider their children's rights, education and welfare. They worry about whether their children will be able to grow up in a healthy and happy environment that we enjoyed in our days. Their concerns weigh heavily on their aspirations and society's hopes for the next generation. As we all know, the extremely high expectations of our young generation have somehow turned into fear and pressure in the hearts of young couples. Our children inevitably become the victims of such developments. While young couples can choose 3174 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 whether or not to have babies, the children themselves have no choice at all. Is it fair? Should the adults and our Government not take complete care of our children's feelings and needs?
As I said earlier, the Government has been stubborn and inert on this issue. It believes that welfare, labour, education and housing policies ensure the well-being of our children, who are the leaders of tomorrow, and that it has already taken children's interest into consideration during the legislation and policy formulation processes. It has been wrong, and will continue to be wrong if it does not do what this Council will tell it to.
However, all these policies and laws mean nothing to our children, since the SAR Government does not explain or report to our children. Our children have a right to know, as in the case of Hong Kong Television license problem. It is not accountable to our children. That leads me to believe that this is why the SAR Government shows such reluctance(The buzzer sounded) ...
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Abraham SHEK, your speaking time is up.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK: … to set up a Commission on Children.
Thank you, President.
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): President, the United Nations adopted the Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) in 1989 which simply included the following six elements. Governments should ensure that children can survive and develop; the views of the child who has the ability to form his/her own opinion are respected and children have the freedom of expression; children have a right to privacy; children have the right to live with their parent(s) and children whose parents do not live together have the right to stay in contact with both parents; special care and assistance are given to children who lost their families and children with disabilities; and children has the right to education, the right to leisure and the right to social security.
While we are discussing the question of establishing a commission on children, I feel scared. I am scared that what happened with the Family Council LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3175 may recur, or as we may have noticed, sometimes when we thought we have done something good for the children, it turned out that it was actually bad for their development and would deprive them of development opportunities. To put it simply and as many people have mentioned before, no matter how much our education system will change, it seems that it is still a system focused on drilling which hinders the chance for the child to develop immense creativity. Have we considered what would be an appropriate education system from the children's perspectives?
Let us simply talk about the design of parks. Safety is our guiding principle. When a child runs or moves around in a park, is safety the most important consideration, or are there other considerations? To illustrate this point, a child can learn to handle failure and defeat by standing to his feet after a fall, or he can develop his ability to feel with his hands in the environment of a park. However, we cannot see that these factors have been factored into the designs of our parks. This shows that society or the Government has to look at things from the perspectives of children and not merely from the perspectives of adults who would try to avoid problems.
In fact, after hearing the speeches of some Honourable colleagues and reviewing the motion debate of the Legislative Council in 2007, my views have changed slightly. At first, I was worried that in the end, only "old people" like us who were in their 50s or 60s would be appointed to the commission on children. We think we know what young people are thinking and will formulate policies and make arrangements to shape their development. That is an approach based on the perspectives of adults and such an arrangement is bound to fail. If we can really open the membership of the commission on children to the new generation, so that their views will be treated as an important factor in reviewing the current policies of the Government, things will be totally different.
In fact, we can ask students whether they think the existing school environment is good or bad for them. I often ask why schools do not allow students to run in the hills. The immediate response of the school is: Students are surely not allowed to do so. What if they should have a fall? I asked why the play equipment of parks has become lower and lower. The answer is: Tall equipment would surely not be provided because it is risky. What if the children should have a fall? The Leisure and Cultural Services Department will be subject to court proceedings. However, have we given any thoughts to how 3176 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 over-protected children are nowadays? One of the contributing factors is that the Government has made excessive changes in response to the over-conservative views of some parents. A complaint from a parent may result in the removal of a very interesting piece of equipment in a park. Is that reasonable?
Therefore, I think a reassessment of the policies of the Government from children's perspectives is an essential process. In terms of financial cost, this approach also saves money because less work is required. Let us consider if that is right. When we were young, were there mats on the floor in playgrounds? A sand pit was all that we had. When we fell to the floor and incur scratches as a kid, we would stand up quickly. Even if my mother saw me bleed, she would say "never mind" and it would be fine after cleansing the wound with water and I would play again. That is what should really happen in the lives of children. Why do we put our children in a greenhouse or a protective cover and completely sterilize our city? That is against children's nature and policies which run contrary to children's nature should actually be reviewed and re-examined.
Therefore, I think the delay of six years in establishing a commission on children has already been too long. It was not easy that the motion was passed in 2007, and the Secretary or the Government should first implement what has been proposed seriously. I also hope that Hong Kong would not receive the comment of not putting enough efforts into honouring its obligations each year after submitting its report to the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child. What if that should happen?
Lastly, I am only speaking for the children. I often think that children would prefer a world without too much supervision and they would like to crawl and move around leisurely in the park. When a child has climbed to a high position, a mother or a caretaker of the park standing nearby would accuse him of climbing to such a position and tell him to come down. Let us not have this scene. There is another situation which I consider to be totally unacceptable. I allowed my son to climb the jungle gym, but the lady standing next to me questioned why I had allowed my son to do so and why I was not worried that he might fall down. That is the way many people in our society think and such a problem cannot be resolved. However, the problem actually boils down to the Government's approach of providing excessive protection or trying to avoid trouble.
Therefore, I support the motion. Thank you, President.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Fernando CHEUNG, you may now speak on the two amendments.
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I am very grateful to the various Members who have spoken on this motion today. Regarding the amendments proposed by the two Members, I agree with Dr Kenneth CHAN in that we should convene summits on children. I think it is reasonable that such summits are to be convened annually. I am aware that some colleagues think that will be too frequent, but if we really think that children are our future, I think it will be worthwhile for the commission on children and the principal officials (including the Chief Executive) to have an annual discussion on subjects of concern to children. I even think that such discussions should be held more frequently.
When we heard the Secretary for Education say that it is only natural for hundreds of or even a thousand parents in North District to queue up outside kindergartens, I really wanted the children to hold a roundtable meeting to discuss the extent to which the existing planning on education has failed. When the Secretary for Transport and Housing said that the "sub-divided units" have their raison d'être, I would like the children living in those units to hold a roundtable meeting to discuss the housing problems of Hong Kong and consider how the living conditions of children in poverty can be improved. When the Permanent Secretary for Education said that it was uncertain whether the reason why children of ethnic minorities could never learn Chinese well was a lack of interest or incentive, I also hoped that children of ethnic minorities could hold a roundtable meeting to discuss whether their poor performance in the Chinese subject was due to the children's own problems or whether it was a result produced by the system as a whole. All of these examples show that we have completely neglected the perspectives of children in many important policies.
In addition, some children have encountered problems which concern their basic right to live. Consider the example of Kei-kei, a girl suffering from 3178 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Pompe disease who has been struggling for survival. As her family has to shoulder the expensive medication costs, we have made repeated requests to the Hospital Authority for medication assistance, but none has been provided so far.
Ms Claudia MO's amendment concerns how to help children learn English. It can be considered as an element of the entire motion. As Mr Abraham SHEK has clearly put it, the English name of a commission on children's rights or a commission on children will often include the word "Commission" and some places will have a Child Commissioner. Other places will even have an Ombudsman, vested with the power to handle complaints. Therefore, a commission on children does not refer to a committee. It is different from the Elderly Commission which is actually a committee established for its members to have discussions only.
What I am referring to is an independent institution of human rights with legal basis which is established according to the recommendation of the United Nations to monitor children's rights. This institution shall have sufficient financial, manpower and technical resources. It can propose studies, analyses, educational programmes, promotional activities, co-ordination of exercises and surveys to be conducted by the Government and monitor them and most important of all, it will enable children to voice their opinions. In many countries, the commission on children's rights does not only involve a commissioner, it also involves the participation of children. In some countries, they have children representatives aged under 18 who directly represent children, whereas others have set up a consultative committee or council on children under the purview of the Commissioner and its members comprise of children only who will express their views to the Commissioner. Therefore, what we are talking about is a channel that can really enable children to voice their opinions.
I do not know how the Government will treat this motion proposed by me and the two amendments proposed by the two Members today. It is my sincere hope that the Government will seriously implement the proposals if the motion and the amendments are passed by Members of different political parties and groupings as well as the independent Members today. Even former Chief Executive Donald TSANG said that his Government would implement the proposals in all the motions passed by this Council, but he has gone back on his words. I hope the Government of this term will respect the opinions of the people and the motion today. I so submit.
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SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, a total of 26 Members have spoken on the motion tonight and some Members have also made specific comments on specific policy areas. I would stress here again that in making decisions concerning children or decisions which may affect children (including decisions on formulating policies or drafting legislative proposals), the SAR Government have all along attached great importance to the protection of children and the best interests of children. The Government has also formulated policies in different areas including welfare, healthcare and education, which seek to promote the physical and mental development of children.
As some Members have spoken on the area of education earlier, I will briefly mention that we have a colleague from the Education Bureau here tonight and I believe Members' opinions on the specific areas will be taken note of carefully and seriously considered.
Nonetheless, I will also say a few words here. Regarding education, the authorities will continue to ensure that students will not be deprived of education because of lack of means. At present, the percentage of students who have completed primary education and junior secondary education is almost 100%. Starting from the school year 2008-2009, the duration of free education provided by public schools has been extended to 12 years. We have been deepening education reform and implemented the New Academic Structure to facilitate the whole-person development of students and develop their intellectual ability for lifelong learning. At the same time, we have injected additional resources to provide quality support for children with special needs, assist students of ethnic minorities to integrate into society and help non-Chinese speaking students to adapt quickly to the local education system and learn the Chinese language.
Regarding the problem of learning English raised by Members, the Education Bureau would like to point out that, apart from learning the correct grammar and usage, interests in English are equally important for children to learn English well. The current English Language curriculum uses a task-based approach which encourages teachers to create situations which help students to communicate in English grammatically and effectively. Our English Language curriculum framework is flexible, balanced and open. It uses diversified activities and caters for different learning targets, student abilities and learning styles and motivates students to learn, so that students can enjoy the learning process while increasing their English proficiency.
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With respect to the provision of social security to families and children with financial difficulties, the Commission on Poverty announced in its summit held on 28 September this year figures and analyses of the poverty situation of Hong Kong. The drawing up of the poverty line will facilitate our understanding in the poverty situation in Hong Kong, assist the Government in formulating poverty alleviation policies and examine the effectiveness of the relevant policies. With reference to the social characteristics of the local families in poverty and in order to improve the lives of children from such families, the SAR Government has made it clear that in formulating poverty alleviation policies, focus should be placed on exploring new ways to promote the upward mobility of grass-roots children and adolescents and reduce their chance of being caught in inter-generational poverty.
We shall continue to provide financial assistance to needy children and their families through various social security schemes and will do our best in providing services to persons and families in need through the Integrated Family Service Centres. To provide special care to underprivileged children, we have implemented the Comprehensive Child Development Service, the Child Development Fund and other initiatives which offer support to these children and assist them in learning effectively and achieve whole-person development.
With regard to the establishment of an independent institution to implement children's rights, Article 4 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Children (the Convention) stated that State Parties shall undertake all legislative, administrative and other measures where appropriate for the implementation of the rights recognized in the Convention. We consider that the following existing arrangements and policy measures can effectively implement the rights recognized by the Convention, including: (a) improving the mechanism of formulating and co-ordinating policies on children and working out a holistic plan on children's development; (b) enhancing the communication with non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and children; and (c) strengthening the promotion of children's rights.
Regarding the formulation and co-ordination of policies on children, we would like to point out that matters concerning the well-being of children involve many policy areas and each of them may involve rather complicated issues. Under the existing arrangement, matters related to a certain policy area will be handled by the Bureau concerned, for example, the Bureau will enact specific laws to protect children's rights and earmark resources for implementing the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 3181 relevant policies. If a matter involves a number of policy areas, the Policy Bureaux will co-ordinate among themselves. Co-ordination is also activated through mechanisms such as the Policy Committee headed by the Chief Secretary for Administration and the Executive Council. This mode of operation has been proven.
At present, the various Policy Bureaux will seek advice from the relevant consultative and advisory bodies to collect the views of children in formulating policies. For example, in designing curriculums, the Education Bureau will find out the views of students from schools. The Administration also set up the Children's Rights Forum (the Forum) in 2005 to provide a platform for NGOs, children and the Government to exchange views on children's issues. Since its inception, the Forum has discussed more than 30 subjects. For example, the Security Bureau and the Labour and Welfare Bureau have sought the views of the Forum on specific ways of carrying out drug testing and legislation on implementing the "Joint Parental Responsibility Model" in 2009 and 2012 respectively. We will continue to listen to the views of NGOs and children representatives and gradually enhance the operation of the Forum in order to strengthen its functions.
President, as I have said in my opening remarks, the SAR Government has adopted a family-based policy to provide appropriate services for needy children and their families. In line with this spirit, the Government established the Family Council in 2007 which many Members have mentioned in their speeches. In the past six years, the Family Council has spent about $76 million on promoting family core values, conducting research, family education and supportive work. This includes the launching of the two-year "Pilot Scheme on Family Mediation Service" in May 2012, which provides sponsorship to interested organizations to provide family mediation services to families with financial difficulties, with a view to assisting them in resolving family disputes and alleviating the negative impact on family members (especially children) arising from litigation. The Family Council has also discussed such items as the comprehensive child development service, support for families with new arrivals from the Mainland and children's rights.
Since 1 April this year, Policy Bureaux are required to include family perspectives when formulating policies for different age and gender sectors (including children). They are required to use the three sets of family core values (that is, "love and care", "respect and responsibilities" and 3182 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
"communication and harmony") as identified by the Family Council, as well as the impact on family's structure and functions as the basis for assessing the effect of their policies on families. They are also required to consider consulting the Family Council on policies which will affect the family.
We are also gradually enhancing the collaboration between the Family Council and the Forum and the arrangements involved have been discussed in the meeting of the Family Council on 15 August. Given the roles and functions of the Family Council, it will continue to act as a forum for assessing the Government's policies and schemes for different age and gender sectors (including children) based on family perspectives. As the Family Council is involved in the family impact assessment process, it will also invite the Policy Bureaux/departments to report to and consult it on important policies and measures concerning children. The Forum will also relay views expressed by children representatives and representatives of NGOs during its discussions on the relevant subjects to the Family Council.
As regards the promotion of children's rights, in the year 2013-2014, we have earmarked additional resources and allocated about $2.15 million to the Children's Rights Education Funding Scheme (CREFS), television programmes on children's rights produced jointly with Radio Television Hong Kong and new Announcements in the Public Interest on television, which represents a rise of about 57% compared with the original estimates of last year. In particular, the number of projects funded by the CREFS in 2013 has increased substantially by almost 50% and more than 53 600 have participated in the activities. Many of these activities sought to facilitate the comprehensive development of children, encourage children to understand more the community in which they live, participate in its work and voice their opinions. We will continue to set aside the required resources to enhance the promotion work in this area.
As I have mentioned in my opening remarks, the SAR Government welcomes opinions from different sectors of the community on ways to improve the well-being of children. I believe colleagues of the relevant bureaux/departments (including the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau and the Education Bureau, who are here tonight) will seriously consider the specific views raised by Members concerning their respective policy areas.
Thank you, President.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Kenneth CHAN, you may move your amendment now.
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): President, I move that Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion be amended.
Dr Kenneth CHAN moved the following amendment: (Translation)
"To add ", in the process of formulating public policies, children's perspectives are very often neglected;" after "That"; and to add ", protect the legitimate rights under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and convene summits annually on children development policies and strategies" immediately before the full stop"."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment, moved by Dr Kenneth CHAN to Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Claudia MO, as the amendment of Dr Kenneth CHAN has been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): President, I move that Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion, as amended by Dr Kenneth CHAN, be further amended by my revised amendment.
Ms Claudia MO moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Dr Kenneth CHAN: (Translation)
"To add "; in addition, as education policy is an important aspect of children affairs, and language learning has far-reaching impact on children's development and well-being, this Council also urges the Government to expeditiously review the current rigid pedagogy which tends to emphasize on grammar in children's learning of English, and provide instead a dynamic learning environment that encourages children to listen and speak more, with a view to increasing their interests in learning English and upgrading their language ability, thereby further protecting children's well-being" immediately before the full stop"."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Ms Claudia MO's amendment to Dr Fernando CHEUNG's motion as amended by Dr Kenneth CHAN be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr IP Kwok-him rose to claim a division.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for five minutes.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr James TO, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Dennis KWOK and Mr POON Siu-ping voted for the amendment.
Mr Abraham SHEK, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr TANG Ka-piu and Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok voted against the amendment.
Mr IP Kin-yuen abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Cyd HO, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Dr KWOK Ka-ki and Dr Fernando CHEUNG voted for the amendment.
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Miss Alice MAK, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted against the amendment.
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THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 21 were present, nine were in favour of the amendment, 11 against it and one abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 23 were present, 13 were in favour of the amendment and nine against it. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.
MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Setting up a commission on children" or any amendments thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Andrew LEUNG be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion passed.
I order that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Setting up a commission on children" or any amendments thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Fernando CHEUNG, you may now reply and you have two minutes 20 seconds.
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, before I entered this Chamber this morning, I had met with some representatives of deputations and one young man from the group gave me a photograph. His name is Mickey YIP. He is now 23 years old and in 2007 when he was only 17, he was already helping in the campaign for the establishment of a commission on children. He then joined an organization called "Kids' Dream". This organization has been promoting the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (the Convention) and striving for the establishment of a commission on children.
I feel a bit disheartened because this is the second time that I have proposed such a motion after six years. Are we going to let these young people down again? During the hearing held on Monday, the representatives of all the deputations put forward the same request. Today, I have not proposed the motion as an individual, but I have done so as a petition to the Government on behalf of many organizations.
Mickey YIP said, "The fight for children's rights is a long and winding road. Some people query the ability of children in participation and others question the value of their opinions, but we who firmly believe that "children can", will climb every steep mountain and show people the applicability of children's rights with our own stories". That is how this young man feels. I hope that the SAR Government will not be so apathetic.
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This Council has passed such a motion on two occasions. The same request has been made by the Committee of the United Nations and the people. If the officials remain reluctant to accede to this request, do they want to make the people rebel out of oppression? Is it true that, as Ms Emily LAU said, we have been too gentle and what we really need to do is taking part in the "Occupy Central" movement, processions and demonstrations? Are the officials not willing to establish even a mechanism to protect children's rights, as the United Nations has urged governments to do?
Thank you, President.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Dr Fernando CHEUNG, as amended by Dr Kenneth CHAN, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion as amended passed.
NEXT MEETING
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now adjourn the Council until 11 am on Wednesday, 27 November 2013.
Adjourned accordingly at three minutes to Midnight. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 A1
Appendix I
WRITTEN ANSWER
Written answer by the Secretary for Development to Ms Starry LEE's supplementary question to Question 3
As regards the usage of the parking spaces under short-term tenancies in the 18 districts of Hong Kong, the information requested is set out below:
District Utilization Rate Central and Western District 96% Eastern District 71% Southern District 73% Wan Chai District -* Kowloon City District 77% Kwun Tong District 64% Sham Shui Po District 72% Wong Tai Sin District 78% Yau Tsim Mong District 71% North District 74% Sai Kung District 64% Sha Tin District 77% Tai Po District 87% Islands District 31% Kwai Tsing District 70% Tsuen Wan District 81% Tuen Mun District 82% Yuen Long District 63% Territory-Wide Average Utilization Rate 72%
* Wan Chai District does not have car parks operating under short-term tenancies A2 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Appendix II
WRITTEN ANSWER
Written answer by the Secretary for Development to Mr WONG Kwok-hing's supplementary question to Question 3
As regards the taxi trade's suggestion for them to park their taxis along the roadside near their shift-changing locations after midnight and move their taxis away before dawn, there are about 18 000 taxis in Hong Kong, the locations and times for shift-change are arranged among the drivers themselves, and they vary. Hong Kong is small but densely populated, and road space is limited. Setting up taxi shift-changing areas in various districts may thus cause inconvenience to other road users. Hence, the Government would need to strike a balance among the needs of different road users.
In response to the request of the taxi trade, the Transport Department (TD) has designated certain space within taxi stands in certain districts for parking of taxis during specified time slots so as to cater for the various operational needs of taxi drivers. If the taxi trade would like to make use of certain taxi stands for short-term parking of taxis for shift-changing purpose, they can relay their request to the TD for consideration.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013 A3
Appendix III
WRITTEN ANSWER
Written answer by the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury to Mr Paul TSE's supplementary question to Question 5
As regards the complaint figures on combating illicit cigarettes, in the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury's main reply, we mentioned that "since the C&ED has stepped up efforts to combat illicit cigarette activities through various levels, the number of complaints against illicit cigarettes has reduced by 34% when compared with last year". The reduction represents the comparison of the complaint figures in the first 10 months of 2013 with those in the same period of 2012. A4 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 20 November 2013
Appendix IV
WRITTEN ANSWER
Written answer by the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury to Mr NG Leung-sing's supplementary question to Question 5
As regards penalties on combating illicit cigarettes, in 2010, 2011 and 2012, the numbers of persons which were convicted, fined and imprisoned for selling and buying illicit cigarettes are as follows:
Year 2010 Year 2011 Year 2012 Convicted(1) 820 724 571 Fined 538 431 400 Imprisoned(2) 294 342 213
Notes:
(1) Those convicted may face penalties of both fines and imprisonment.
(2) Those sentenced to imprisonment include persons given suspended jail sentence.