Vol. 739 Tuesday No. 40 24 July 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Nigeria Chilcot Committee: Intercept Evidence Finance: Loan Guarantee Scheme Public and Commercial Services Union: Strike Action Arms Trade Treaty Negotiations Private Notice Question Procedure of the House Motion to Agree Five Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee Three Statutory Instruments Motions to Approve House of Lords (Cessation of Membership) Bill [HL] Third Reading Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] Third Reading Electoral Registration and Administration Bill Second Reading

Grand Committee Local Government Finance Bill Committee (6th Day)

Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, we are at House of Lords the beginning of Questions. Perhaps we may hear from the Opposition first. The noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, Tuesday, 24 July 2012. will then be next. 2.30 pm Lord Anderson of Swansea: The Minister will be well aware that Boko Haram is only part of an Islamist Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Bristol. tide sweeping across the Sahel. In northern Nigeria, a particular problem is the atrocities against the Lord Collins of Mapesbury took the oath. Christian community—the attempt, in effect, to cleanse northern Nigeria of Christians. What specifically are Nigeria the Government doing to assist Nigeria, possibly in Question co-operation with our French colleagues because of the general nature of the problem, and to what extent 2.37 pm do we fear for the unity of Nigeria? Asked by Baroness Cox Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is right that this is part of a larger series of trends and developments, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment some of them of a very ominous and dangerous kind they have made of the recent escalation of violence —not least the instability in Mali and the attacks on in Nigeria. Timbuktu that have been very much in the news. All those events reflect and connect with the activities of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Boko Haram, to which the noble Lord referred. We Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, the are working with the Nigerians at all times to see how Islamist extremist movement known as Boko Haram we can help them increase security. At the same time has claimed responsibility for many attacks in Nigeria. we are working with the French and other EU partners Ongoing intercommunal tensions have also led to to address the whole issue of the Sahel, where all these conflict, which has recently been exacerbated by attacks dangers are arising. The noble Lord is absolutely right on places of worship such as the one in Kaduna state to call attention to them. on 17 June. The British Government utterly condemn such violence and work with the Nigerian Government Lord Chidgey: If I may, I will take that point a little and international partners to ensure the location of a further, although my noble friend has just offered us comprehensive strategy to tackle security threats. an answer. What assessment have our Government made of the links between Boko Haram, AQIM in Baroness Cox: I thank the Minister for his helpful Mali and al-Shabaab in Somalia in their logistical, reply. Is he aware that I recently returned from Kano, ideological and political operations? Bauchi and Plateau states, where Christians are living in siege-like conditions, especially on Sundays, when Lord Howell of Guildford: We keep a very close eye many have been attacked and killed during church on this in making assessments, as do our French services; where it is becoming increasingly difficult for colleagues—as I just mentioned to the noble Lord, Christian leaders to sustain their commendable efforts Lord Anderson—our United States colleagues and to prevent retaliation, with the risk of escalating others. The precise linkages are fluid and not always intercommunal conflict, as happened in Kaduna, to easy to identify, but there is no doubt that, where there which the noble Lord referred; and where there are has been potential instability and turmoil, al-Qaeda, concerns over the possible destabilisation of Nigeria or branches and franchises of al-Qaeda, tend to turn itself? Will Her Majesty’s Government raise with the up like flies around any corpses. This is always the Nigerian Government the concerns of the Christian danger and we should watch it very closely. As for communities, including the frequent failure of the al-Shabaab, we cannot see a visible connection at the authorities to prosecute and punish the perpetrators moment, but it too might be involved, although it is of violence against them? quite a long way away. The Lord Bishop of Durham: My Lords, I have Lord Howell of Guildford: I am aware of the noble made nearly 70 trips over the past 30 years to Nigeria, Baroness’s recent visits and I was very grateful for the many of which in the past few years have dealt with very informative report that she shared with Foreign conflict management. Do the Government also remain and Commonwealth Office officials on the situation. committed to working with private and civil society The British Government are appalled as well as deeply organisations, particularly the churches and religious and continuously concerned by what has gone on and leaders—I am thinking of organisations such as the by the situation that she described. I can only say that one run by the bishop of Kaduna, Bridge Builders—which we are fully engaged with the Nigerian Government in many ways have been especially effective in dealing on these issues and on the essential need to protect with an issue that has religious elements? minorities more effectively and to bring the perpetrators of violence to justice. Lord Howell of Guildford: The answer to the right reverend Prelate is indeed yes. To reinforce the point, Lord Chidgey: My Lords— although there are different religious groups in Nigeria we have always seen it as a state of tolerance rather Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords— than religious intolerance. That is not the main cause 595 Nigeria[LORDS] Chilcot Committee: Intercept Evidence 596

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] Chilcot Committee: Intercept Evidence of the violence and horrors that we have seen recently, Question which arise much more from the provocations and extreme violence of organisations that have intruded 2.45 pm and invaded, such as Boko Haram. Asked by Lord Lloyd of Berwick Lord Clarke of Hampstead: My Lords, I am sure To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they that the whole House appreciates the efforts made by expect the Chilcot committee to report on the Her Majesty’s Government so far in trying to resolve admissibility of intercept evidence. some of these problems. Are the Government aware of the reports of the well-armed mercenaries who are The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): operating in the attacks on Christian churches? If they My Lords, the Government are conducting an extensive are, are they doing anything to find out the source of assessment of the benefits, costs and risks of introducing the supply of the sophisticated weaponry that is being intercept as evidence in criminal proceedings. Lawful used against Christians? interception is a vital but complex area, and so it is crucial to get it right. The cross-party advisory group Lord Howell of Guildford: We are aware of reports. overseeing this work will be further consulted. We always seek more information. These are very important matters in which we take a very close interest. Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, it is now four We take a particular interest in the arms trade issue, and a half years since the committee was asked by the which we will discuss later on this afternoon in this then Government to find a way of making intercept House. evidence available in court. It is two and a half years since the committee decided not to go ahead with the Lord Elton: Is my noble friend aware that although preferred solution, which is PII Plus, on the basis of we in this country are very alert to Boko Haram and certain legal advice which it had received. Since then, to the religious imbalance in this conflict, the media we have heard nothing. Will the Minister take what constantly report, particularly to other Muslim countries, steps he can to make that legal advice generally available that this is a reciprocal fight in which Christians and so that we can judge for ourselves whether it still has Muslims are equally engaged? How does he square validity? that with the fact that it is almost always Christian churches that are blown up and Muslim mosques that Lord Henley: My Lords, I may depress the noble are left untouched? and learned Lord a little when I tell him that it has actually been longer than four and a half years. I gather that seven previous attempts going back to Lord Howell of Guildford: I cannot comment on the 1993 have been made to try to resolve this issue, which balance or lack of balance in any media reporting, but gives some indication of the difficulty of dealing with of course it is not always balanced, although my noble it. We have made a coalition commitment that the friend is right to say that there is no equality of Government will seek, violence. However, there are reprisals and it is true that “to find a practical way to allow the use of intercept evidence in mosques have been attacked as well as churches. We court”. have no doubt that the new levels of horror, violence However, we must focus on the benefits, costs and and atrocity that have been imported into northern risks of so doing, and that is why we want to get it Nigeria are initiated and have been provoked by Boko right. As regards the legal advice, I can only say to the Haram. noble and learned Lord that it would not generally be appropriate to put into the public domain independent Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, given that legal advice that had been offered by counsel. 600 people in Nigeria have already been murdered this year by Boko Haram, which states that it wants to Lord Dubs: My Lords, does the Minister agree that extinguish all reference to western ideals, including if the risks associated with making intercept evidence democracy, why have we not proscribed it as a terrorist available in court could be make acceptable to the organisation in the United Kingdom? Has the Minister Government, surely the benefits of using such evidence had a chance to look at the information which I have in court would be enormous? We would bring to sent to his office about the links between funding justice people who at the moment cannot be brought organisations in the UK supporting Boko Haram? to justice. It would be a much better way of running these things than having control orders, TPIMs and Lord Howell of Guildford: On the first point, it is what have you. not HMG’s policy to comment on which organisations may or may not be considered for proscription. On the Lord Henley: My Lords, I think I can agree entirely funding issue raised by the noble Lord, I am very with the noble Lord, but we have to accept that there grateful to him for doing so. We were not aware before are risks and that we have to find a balance between he raised it of the suggestion that funds were going the risks and the benefits. That is what we are trying to from UK groups to Boko Haram. I have brought it to do. As the noble Lord will appreciate, for a whole the attention of officials who are examining the issue, series of Governments going back to 1993, this is and I will write to him about it. quite a difficult matter to resolve. 597 Chilcot Committee: Intercept Evidence[24 JULY 2012] Finance: Loan Guarantee Scheme 598

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I do not doubt the Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, the supposition difficulty of the subject, but when one looks to see seems to be that a large number of cases do not what has been published over the past few years, there proceed to court because intercept evidence is not is nothing that is recent. Can the Minister give the admissible. Could the Minister give us the Government’s House any reassurance that progress is being made, estimate of how many such cases there are that would perhaps by publishing a further interim report? have proceeded to court had this evidence been available?

Lord Henley: My Lords, it is for the committee of Lord Henley: My Lords, I cannot give the noble independent privy counsellors, the Chilcot committee, Lord that, but I remind him of the remarks made by to consider what it can publish. I will certainly look to his noble friend Lord West about the number of cases see whether there is anything that HMG can say, but I that possibly would never have been pursued at all am not sure that there is at this stage. We want to get because of lack of intelligence. He must differentiate there; my noble friend knows we want to get there between intelligence and evidence. That is what we are since she knows that it is part of the coalition agreement. trying to do—to make sure we still have the intelligence However, I repeat that it is very difficult. and do not lose it as a result of making use of it as evidence. Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that, so far as most countries in the developed Finance: Loan Guarantee Scheme world are concerned, particularly the English-speaking Question world—Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States—such evidence is admissible and used to good effect day in and day out? Why is it that, for the past 2.52 pm 26 years, successive Governments have set their face so Asked by Lord Barnett intransigently against the use of such evidence in our courts? To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the loan guarantee scheme, announced in a Written Statement by Lord Sassoon on 18 July, will work. Lord Henley: My Lords, the noble Lord is correct to point out that there are other countries that have similar common law legal systems that do use intercept The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord as evidence. They do not have the constraints of the Sassoon): My Lords, under UK guarantees the European Court of Human Rights—a point that ought Government aim to kick-start major infrastructure to be made to the noble Lord. As I said, all Governments projects that may be struggling to access private finance. have been trying to get there since 1993. It is going to Eligible projects will be subject to a detailed assessment be a very long road. process and the Government will conduct and consider the most effective form of guarantee based on the specific project risks. The Government have wide discretion Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I am scarred over how a guarantee is structured, subject to the from two years of my Liberal Democrat friends slapping terms and dynamics of each individual project. The me around when I was in government because I took guarantees could cover key project risks such as too long to do anything about this. I am glad that now construction, performance or revenue risk. they are in a coalition, they are finding this quite a difficult issue. Does the Minister not agree that some 25 years ago terrorists did not know that when they Lord Barnett: I thank the Minister, although his picked up a mobile phone we would get them straight Reply might have been better as an Oral Statement. I away? Now there are techniques that, if exposed, welcome the infrastructure plan. However, with the would mean that we would not get the tip-offs that we Prime Minister talking about a 10-year austerity get all the time which allow us to monitor whole teams programme and with growth likely to indicate tomorrow of people who wish to do our nation harm. that we are in a triple-dip recession, is that not one of the reasons why even companies with 100% guarantees will not want to borrow money? That applies to the Lord Henley: The noble Lord makes a very valid main scheme and even the PPP. No one should be point about the importance of intelligence, and why surprised. The Prime Minister originally said that the we do not necessarily want to risk losing that intelligence plan would come into force in 2014 at the earliest but, by making use of it as evidence. I am grateful to the given the economic background, do we not need it noble Lord for his support, and I look forward to now, not in 2014? In those circumstances, could he being slapped around on this by noble Lords from all suggest to the Chancellor that he consider a quadruple sides of the House for months to come. U-turn and find a little cash to help kick-start the infrastructure plans, which are so welcome? Lord Campbell-Savours: Is there a precedent anywhere for Governments having published independent legal Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am very happy to correct advice? the noble Lord, Lord Barnett. Some £40 billion of projects in the national infrastructure plan that are Lord Henley: My Lords, as the noble Lord will be due to start construction before 2015 could well be well aware, it is the general rule that legal advice is not eligible for guarantees under the scheme. We are inviting published. applications for guarantees now and, subject to legislation, 599 Finance: Loan Guarantee Scheme[LORDS] PCS Union: Strike Action 600

[LORD SASSOON] Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we have come forward we hope to have the first guarantees granted this with a very positive financing package to help our autumn, so this is absolutely not something that waits infrastructure providers and our exporters. I believe till 2014. It is because of the strength of the national that that will be welcomed very widely, as it has been, balance sheet and the fiscal retrenchment that we are by business organisations. I hope that it will be welcomed able to come forward with a £40 billion scheme that by the devolved Administrations; as I have said, it starts this autumn. extends to them.

Lord Wigley: My Lords, will the Minister confirm Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, of course we that this scheme will extend to Wales, Scotland and welcome this scheme but, as my noble friend Lord Northern Ireland? That being so, will he confirm that Barnett indicated, this is in the context of the UK there were discussions with the three Administrations being in a double-dip or, as he suggested, triple-dip before the announcement was made? recession. We certainly are the only country in the G20 apart from Italy that is in recession. This modest scheme is welcome. Will the Minister explain, therefore, Lord Sassoon: I can confirm that the scheme will why the Government axed the similar scheme to support extend to the devolved Administrations. public/private partnerships put forward by the Labour Administration in 2009? Lord Sharkey: Is there is anything about the design of the loan guarantee scheme that makes it more likely Lord Sassoon: My Lords, again, I am happy to put that funding to SMEs, particularly those in deprived the record straight. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of areas, will increase? Oldham, may not have noticed that this package includes £6 billion worth of facility available to public/private Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the £40 billion infrastructure partnership projects that are ready to start in the next guarantee scheme is linked to nationally significant 12 months. infrastructure projects. Typically, the promoters of those projects will not be SMEs, but of course there Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, would will be very many SMEs in the supply chain for the the Minister care to help the House by confirming or projects that will benefit. SMEs working in the public/ denying that there were discussions with the relevant private partnership space will also benefit from a Administrations in advance of the scheme being possible £6 billion of additional loans that was also announced—and not announced to Parliament? announced in this package, as will exporters, for whom a £5 billion export refinancing facility will be extended. Lord Sassoon: I cannot confirm or deny it. All I say is that this is good news for the whole of the United Kingdom and has been widely welcomed. Lord Peston: My Lords, it is obvious that this loan guarantee scheme must involve immense risk because if there were no risk involved, the guarantee would not Public and Commercial Services Union: be required. How will the costs of meeting those risks Strike Action enter into the public accounts, or will the Government try to fiddle the figures so that they do not eventually Question appear as public expenditure? 3pm Asked By Baroness Fookes Lord Sassoon: My Lords, there will be no fiddling of the numbers by this Government on this or anything To ask Her Majesty’s Government what else. The position is very straightforward: the financing representations they have made to the Public and markets for these projects are extremely difficult but Commercial Services Union about the proposed there good projects are coming forward in the pipeline, strike on the day before the opening of the 2012 and the beauty of the scheme is that we can use the Olympic Games. strength of the government balance sheet. To answer the technical question, the infrastructure guarantees The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): will be financial transactions and will have no impact My Lords, the Public and Commercial Services Union’s on PSNB. A project would have an impact on PSND decision to call this strike on the eve of the Games is only if there was a non-negligible expected loss, which opportunistic and wholly unjustified. The Home Secretary is not something that we anticipate. The guarantees has written to the PCS to express her concern and to will generally count as contingent liabilities, and that make it clear that Her Majesty’s Government are is very clear. totally opposed to the strike.

Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, may I gently tempt Baroness Fookes: Is it correct that only 21% of the the Minister to answer the second question asked by union members balloted actually voted at all and that my noble friend Lord Wigley? I take it that there was only a very small majority of those who did vote voted no consultation. Why was that? Was there an intention in favour? In those circumstances, and given that to show contempt for the views of the devolved lukewarm support, is there any responsible person in Administrations or did the Government just not think this country who supports this squalid little exercise about it? What is the answer, please? that threatens the good name of this country? 601 PCS Union: Strike Action[24 JULY 2012] Arms Trade Treaty Negotiations 602

Lord Henley: My Lords, I cannot believe that there Lord Henley: My Lords, if that was support for the is anyone who will support a strike of this sort other Government’s position, it was very strange support. than that 12% of PCS members who voted for the strike. What we want to hear is a thorough condemnation We are currently checking the legality of the strike from the party opposite of the PCS’s action, and I am and, if satisfied that it is illegal, we will take the not sure that I have quite heard that. The strike is due appropriate remedies in the courts. to happen tomorrow. As I said, it is opportunistic and unnecessary. Our doors are open and we continue to Lord Foster of Bishop Auckland: Is the Minister negotiate, as the noble Baroness knows full well. However, aware that the PCS has at least my full support? The I want to make it clear that we will take appropriate reason is that every union in the public sector has been legal action if it is possible, and that is why we are provoked beyond endurance by the present Government. checking the legality of the strike that has been called The unions are fully justified in negotiating with the with the support of some 12% of PCS members. Government and it is the Government’s duty to settle. Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, I declare an interest as a pensioner of PCS. I do not support the Lord Henley: I am interested that one person is strike; neither does my party. However, is the Minister prepared to put his head above the parapet on this aware that there is a serious problem with staffing matter and I note that the noble Lord’s leader, Mr Ed within the border agency? Is he further aware that last Miliband, was in Durham at the Durham Miners’ week some of us met Deutsche Bahn, the railway firm, Gala speaking on the same platform as the PCS, which has delayed introducing trains and competition presumably in support of this strike. It would be very into the Eurotunnel because of the problems over interesting to hear his views on this matter. immigration and the inadequate number of staff being engaged by the Government to carry out the necessary Lord Dholakia: My Lords, the action proposed by border controls? This is losing business for the country the PCS is a serious matter, particularly when the and losing business for London, and it is time that the world’s attention is focused on the United Kingdom in Government got to grips with it. matters relating to the entry, security and safety of travellers coming to this country. Although it is right Lord Henley: My Lords, the noble Lord’s question not to interfere with any negotiations that may be goes slightly beyond that on the Order Paper. As he going on, does my noble friend accept that, as tomorrow knows full well, it is not simply the problems relating is the last day on which this House will be sitting, we to border force but also the problems relating to the are entitled to know what contingency plans exist if layout of St Pancras Station. Those matters can be the situation were to deteriorate? resolved between now and 2015, which is the earliest possible date that Deutsche Bahn is likely to bring Lord Henley: As my noble friend will be well aware, trains in there. I am grateful for the noble Lord’s we have full contingency plans in place, just as we did condemnation of this strike. on the other four occasions on which the PCS has called one-day strikes. On all those occasions we managed Arms Trade Treaty Negotiations not only to secure the border appropriately but to Private Notice Question prevent excessive queues. We hope to do that again tomorrow, but we hope that the PCS will see reason. 3.06 pm Our doors remain open to negotiations until the last Tabled by Lord Judd minute but, as I said, we are also taking legal advice on this matter. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in negotiations on the arms trade treaty taking place at the United Nations in New Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, although York, which are due to reach their conclusion on we would all support an Olympic truce between the Thursday 26 July and what their ultimate negotiating Government and the unions, I think the Minister does position is. this House a disservice when he tries to imply that the leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband, supports the Lord Judd: My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question strike when he has made it quite clear, as the Minister of which I have given private notice. In asking this and other noble Lords will know, that he does not Question, I declare an interest as a trustee of the support the strike. We also recognise that there are real charity Save the World and a former director of Oxfam. long-term issues about queues at border controls, particularly for non-EEA visitors. Yesterday the National The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Audit Office blamed the Government for cutting too Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, negotiations many staff—more than even the Government planned— in New York are due to conclude on Friday 27 July. far too quickly. We now have a Bermuda Triangle of The negotiations are complex and sensitive, and at this lost asylum cases being written off, mounting casework stage it is not possible to predict the outcome. However, backlogs, and even fewer foreign criminals being deported. our ambitions remain unchanged. For the UK, success I appreciate that there are shorter queues at border means a robust and effective legally binding treaty controls for the Olympics, but can the Minister guarantee with strong provisions on international humanitarian that, following the NAO report, the Government will law and human rights. The treaty must include everything treat this issue as a priority and ensure that there are from fighter planes to rifles, and bombs to bullets and enough staff and resources to do the job in the long ammunition. Arms brokering must be controlled and term? corrupt practitioners prosecuted. It should establish a 603 Arms Trade Treaty Negotiations[LORDS] Arms Trade Treaty Negotiations 604

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] it is highly likely that we will have to make a choice transparent system whereby states publish a list of between a robust treaty, which is not signed by everyone, controlled goods and report regularly on their arms and a weak treaty, which will not be worth the paper exports. it is written on because it will be subscribed to by countries like Russia, which is busy exporting arms to Lord Judd: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that a situation of humanitarian disaster in Syria as if reply. Does he not agree that on matters of such vital there were no tomorrow? Will he confirm the very importance for global security—as is being underlined welcome position he gave that we will stick to our every day in Syria, the Gulf, Africa, Asia and elsewhere— guns—perhaps a slightly unfortunate phrase—and not that it would have been better for the Government to water down the arms trade treaty that we have set out come with a considered statement on how the negotiations to get, even if this means that some of the largest are proceeding and on their position, so that there exporters are temporarily at least not going to sign up? could have been full and proper exchanges in this House? Does he not accept that there is growing Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I have said disillusion and indignation across the world that there that we are not going to sign a weak consensus. I know are all kinds of aspirations but no firm and binding that the noble Lord, who is very versed in and a conclusions? If we do not achieve a firm and binding master of these negotiations, would not expect me to outcome from these negotiations, is there not a case make statements about our negotiating position at this that it would be better to have no treaty at all? crucial stage. I repeat that a weak consensus or a feeble Lord Howell of Guildford: I understand the noble abandonment is not what is contemplated. Lord’s strong feelings. He has always been a robust fighter in this very important cause. However, we are Lord Triesman: My Lords, we, too, wish the negotiators at this very delicate and sensitive stage in the negotiations, well, but I think the noble Lord will understand why when we are fighting to achieve a robust treaty and we are apprehensive. On 13 July, the BIS Select Committee avoid what we would totally reject, which is having to in the other place concluded that the Government sign a weak consensus. I am not sure that in the middle seem to have adopted a different policy from that of of the negotiations it would be better to discuss them. the previous Administration and appear to be ready to The noble Lord, with his experience, will possibly weaken the arms trade treaty in order to placate the understand that. Although I fully applaud his feelings arms exporting countries, looking for what would on this matter, we are at an absolutely crucial stage of emerge as a lowest common denominator approach. mid-negotiation. This is something that has been fought That apprehension is shared in New York. Any discussion for by officials under successive Governments for over with colleagues there will show that. They are deeply six years. We are poised to achieve the very most that concerned that we did not sign the strong text of we can, as I outlined in my Answer. support calling for a strong treaty, already signed by 74 countries, and that we should consider showing Lord King of Bridgwater: Does the Minister agree that intent and good will now. Will the Government that this will very soon represent the culmination of do so? eight years’ work by determined Ministers and officials of both the previous and the present Governments Lord Howell of Guildford: I think that that apprehension and that we wish them well in these final, concluding is ill founded. Ambassador Moritan, who chairs the days? I have to say that it is very bizarre to have a process, obviously has had to manoeuvre. We have to Private Notice Question that asks for the Government’s be realistic that there are sceptics and that there are negotiating position two days before the final vote, countries which, from the start, have been outright after eight years’ work. Nobody denies the enormous opponents of anything other than broad political importance of this treaty—for all the reasons that the agreements. We have to accept that. Our determination noble Lord, Lord Judd, has given—so that responsible is not to be deviated from the pattern which was defence industries can operate in the proper, licensed reflected under the noble Lord’s own Government, way and so that the illegal shipment of arms which has and I repeat that we are determined not to sign a weak caused such difficulty can be properly controlled under consensus but to go for a robust treaty. That remains an international agreement. In these crucial last two our position. days, is not the best thing for us to wish our negotiators the best possible success in this important undertaking? Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, does Lord Howell of Guildford: My noble friend is absolutely my noble friend agree that when in the past decade right. I fully endorse everything he says. I believe your $2.2 billion-worth of arms have been sold to countries Lordships are at heart, and certainly have been in past that are under an arms embargo, such as Iran, Myanmar statements, fully in support of these very difficult and Zimbabwe, it is terribly important to get a text of negotiations and this high ambition of the British some sort? I have to say, with all due respect, the Government and that we should today take the Labour Benches have been fantastic about this treaty, opportunity further to reinforce the support for what but the binary question they pose to the House is that officials have struggled to achieve over the years under we either go for a treaty or, given that it is a consensus successive Governments. procedure, we go for nothing at all. Would it not be better to negotiate to the very last moment to get any Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, does the text on the paper to build for an incremental future Minister recognise—and I am not asking what our whereby we regulate arms than to settle for nothing, negotiating position is—that between now and Friday which is what I suspect they are posing? 605 Arms Trade Treaty Negotiations[24 JULY 2012] Procedure of the House 606

Lord Howell of Guildford: I do not want to be when the Prime Minister is under tremendous pressure involved in this polarised binary approach, as my with his former press adviser and good friend having noble friend rightly calls it. We are negotiating very been charged with very serious offences and when his hard. She is quite right that there are very high prizes judgment is in question, it would add to that for his to be achieved if we can get the robust treaty we want. adviser on banking, a senior Minister of State, not to I think I shall leave it there, except to observe that even come before this House and be accountable to the with the treaty and, indeed, much more so without a place where he ought to be. treaty, illicit arms continue to swirl around the world and feed Syria, the killing and the murder, and they will continue to do so unless, step by step, we can move Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I apologise for intervening from the treaty to tighter and tighter controls. on this issue, but I wish to say something. I address my remarks to the noble Lord the Leader of the House Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, those of us rather than to the Lord Chairman. In view of the fact who follow these matters closely are hearing very that the noble Lord, Lord Green, is going to be on strongly from New York that the sceptics are dominating television this evening and that he has written a letter the floor of this conference. We are constantly being to Mr Chris Leslie in the House of Commons, I impressed by the request that Britain speaks up more thought it pertinent to raise this matter on the Floor in this conference as a leader of those who wish to see of the House. a robust treaty. I shall repeat to the Minister the As a matter of procedure, the noble Lord the question posed to him by my noble friend Lord Triesman, Leader of the House yesterday told your Lordships’ about it not being too late for the UK Government to House in relation to the noble Lord, Lord Green of sign up to the statement signed by 74 countries setting Hurstpierpoint: out the humanitarian bottom line for a robust treaty. “No Minister needs to be accountable to Parliament for their Are the Government prepared to consider doing that? previous career”.—[Official Report, 23/7/2012; col. 482.] It would send a very strong message to these negotiations. However, in a letter to my honourable friend the Lord Howell of Guildford: Strong messages are going shadow Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the noble all the time. As I think the noble Lord knows, we have Lord, Lord Green, does precisely that in giving, as a always said that we want to have a humanitarian government Minister in an official letter from a dimension fully in this treaty. We have said that, but government department, his views on HSBC and what how we manage to secure our aims in this last vital he described as the “failures” of the bank, about stage is a matter of delicate negotiation, and I think I which he says, “I share that regret”. If the noble Lord, must leave it there, although I fully recognise the Lord Green, can make that kind of point in a government strong feelings on both sides of the House about this letter—let alone what he might say in an interview on matter. Sky television at 7 pm this evening—he should come to this House and make those points here. I therefore invite the Leader of the House, in the light of the Procedure of the House actions today of the noble Lord, Lord Green, to make Motion to Agree arrangements for the noble Lord, as a Minister and a 3.16 pm Member of this House, to take the opportunity to come to this House tomorrow to dispel the questions Moved by The Chairman of Committees that are being posed about his ministerial role. That the 1st report from the Select Committee (HL Paper 25) be agreed to. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I congratulate Strathclyde): My Lords, I think that it is worth replying the Chairman of Committees on an excellent and to this. The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition sympathetic report. However, could he arrange for the was kind enough to give me notice that she would Procedure Committee to look at another matter: namely, raise this issue. There are two accusations against my the accountability of Ministers to this House, particularly noble friend Lord Green. The first is that he has the accountability of the noble Lord, Lord Green? I written to Mr Chris Leslie, who is a Member of the have here a table that shows that his attendance in the House of Commons. The only reason why my noble current Session was less than 10%; whereas, just to friend Lord Green has written to Mr Leslie is because take a random example, the noble Baroness, Lady Mr Leslie wrote to him and he has simply replied. Anelay, was here nearly 100% of the time. The noble That strikes me as being entirely the right and correct Lord, Lord Green, was absent yesterday when there thing to do. was a PNQ, which he knew was coming up, about his The second accusation is that my noble friend has attendance. He is absent again today. I do not know not come to this House to answer questions. The where he is, but he is certainly not here. However, he is reason why my noble friend has not come to this going to make a statement today, not to this House House to answer questions is because none has been but to Jeff Randall on Sky television. put to him on this subject. It is appalling and a discourtesy to this House and The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, made much of the to Parliament as a whole when the noble Lord considers table of attendance and referred to my noble friend that it is appropriate for him to make a statement on Lady Anelay.However, she happens to be the government television and not to this House. Since we have the Chief Whip, and if she was not here practically every noble Lord the Leader of the House here—I shall wait day, I would want to know why. Incidentally, I also for a reply to the Committee—he will say that at a time want to know why the Minister for Trade should 607 Procedure of the House[LORDS] Jobseeker’s Allowance Regs. 2012 608

[LORD STRATHCLYDE] time when we needed trade and exports, they needed spend all his time in here when his job is to do his best, to be out and about promoting British business. The banging the drum for British business—as the noble other House respected the fact that they had to lead Lord, Lord Jones, used to remind us—rather than delegations and had greater impact outside. The more coming here. How many questions has the noble Lord, they did, the better they did it. They were very effective Lord Foulkes, put down in the past 12 months to my Ministers of Trade at a rather successful time for the noble friend Lord Green on matters of trade? I shall British economy. If ever we needed a Minister of check the record later. Trade to be active overseas, it is now. I thought this House would appreciate that. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: If the noble Lord the Leader of the House would care to check, he will find Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, my noble friend puts it that the noble Lord, Lord Jones, attended here regularly. extremely well. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord He answered question after question. Not only did he Barnett, a Written Ministerial Statement on the loan do so, but so did the Secretary of State, the noble guarantee scheme was made by my noble friend Lord Lord, Lord Mandelson, who also attended regularly. Sassoon because it was a Treasury matter. The noble The noble Lord, Lord Green, is the senior Minister Lord was able to ask him a Question a few minutes from the Department for Business, Innovation and ago. Skills in this House, but who has to stand in? The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who comes very high in The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel): My the table, gallantly stands in regularly to answer these Lords, it seems so long ago, but if I remember correctly questions; and if she is not able to do it, the noble the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, began by commending Lord, Lord De Mauley, stands in. However, we never the report. I thank him for those very few words on the see the noble Lord, Lord Green. I do not think that report. He raised issues that have been dealt with by the noble Lord the Leader of the House understands the Leader of the House. The only thing I should say that he is the Leader of the House, not of the Conservative is that if anyone wishes to take these matters further in Party. He is responsible for the whole House. It is a light of the Procedure Committee, they can always grave discourtesy for a Minister never to appear to write. I do not think that any points, let alone points of turn up. He is not just responsible for trade and substance, have been raised on the content of the investment; he is the main Minister in that department, report, which makes a number of important advances and he should be here answering questions. in how we enable people with disabilities to contribute fully to the business of this House. I commend the Lord Strathclyde: I will not continue this for very report to the House. much longer. All I can say is that if the noble Lord wants to put down questions on trade and investment, Motion agreed. my noble friend Lord Green will be here to answer them. Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2012 Lord Barnett: My Lords, while the noble Lord is here and answering questions, I hope he does not mind my saying this, but I understand that the noble Occupational and Personal Pension Lord, Lord Green, should have made from BIS the Schemes (Automatic Enrolment) Statement on loan guarantees. For some reason, he was not here, although I gather he was in the House. (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2012 Could the noble Lord inquire into why that happened? I would rather that the noble Lord, Lord Green, had Child Support Maintenance Calculation answered, given that he was the Minister concerned. Regulations 2012 Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I do not wish to prolong this either. I would merely say that I Child Support Maintenance (Changes to did not write to the noble Lord, Lord Green, because Basic Rate Calculation and Minimum on a couple of occasions I asked for the noble Lord to Amount of Liability) Regulations 2012 come to this House, of which he is a Member, to answer questions. Next time I will write to the Minister responsible, because I know that Ministers do not Jobseeker’s Allowance (Sanctions) think that it is fitting to come to this House and to be accountable to this House. Clearly, we have to do (Amendment) Regulations 2012 things by correspondence. Motions to Refer to Grand Committee Lord King of Bridgwater: Can we get a better 3.26 pm understanding of this issue? My own memory goes Moved by Lord Freud back to two excellent Ministers of Trade: Cecil Parkinson, who is now a Member of this House, and Richard That the draft regulations be referred to a Grand Needham—both of whom will be familiar to many Committee. Members of this House. I was rude to them if I ever saw them, because their job was not to be here. At a Motions agreed. 609 Jobseeker’s Allowance Regs. 2012[24 JULY 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] 610

Public Bodies (Child Maintenance and other place. Does the noble Lord think that his Bill Enforcement Commission: Abolition and just might be part of the answer to the Government’s problem on Lords reform? Transfer of Functions) Order 2012 Lord Steel of Aikwood: It is above my pay grade to Social Security (Civil Penalties) answer that. I hope that it might be but we shall wait Regulations 2012 and see. In the mean time, like the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, on the previous occasion when we debated Motions to Approve this, I quote Aristotle: “Politics is the art of the possible”. 3.27 pm This item is possible. Let us get on with it and pass it Moved by Lord Freud to the House of Commons.

That the draft order and regulations laid before Bill passed and sent to the Commons. the House on 23 April and 14 May be approved. Relevant documents: 1st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee; 1st and 2nd Report Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Third Reading considered in Grand Committee on 12 July. 3.30 pm Motions agreed.

Equality Act 2010 (Age Exceptions) Clause 21 : Amendments and transition Order 2012 Motion to Approve Amendment 1 Moved by Baroness Wilcox 3.27 pm 1: Clause 21, page 9, line 26, after “of” insert “the Arbitration Moved by Baroness Verma (Scotland) Act 2010 or”

That the draft order laid before the House on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, 25 June be approved. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Relevant documents: 5th Report from the Joint Wilcox): My Lords, in our discussion of Clause 2 of Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in the Bill on Report, I mentioned that we had identified Grand Committee on 17 July. that it would be sensible to bring Article 11 of the groceries supply order 2009 up to date to reflect the Motion agreed. Arbitration (Scotland) Act 2010. I said that we would consider a minor and technical amendment to the Bill to facilitate this, and we are now proposing such an House of Lords (Cessation of amendment. This was helpfully prompted by the amendment to Clause 2 proposed by the noble Lord, Membership) Bill [HL] Lord Browne, on Report. Third Reading The purpose of this amendment is to enable the Competition Commission to ensure that the order is 3.28 pm updated to reflect the Arbitration (Scotland) Act 2010. Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, as is usual The need for an amendment follows in particular in these matters, I shall now read the following. I have from the fact that Article 11(8) of the order refers to it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint Sections 67 to 69 of the Arbitration Act 1996 but not the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of to the similar provisions of the Arbitration (Scotland) the purport of the House of Lords (Cessation of Act 2010. Membership) Bill, has consented to place her prerogative Section 161(5) of the Enterprise Act 2002 prevents and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the order being varied unless the OFT advises that the the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill. variation is appropriate by reason of a change of circumstances. Clause 21(5) of the Bill already facilitates the updating of the order to reflect the Bill by disapplying Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, I beg to move Section 161(5) in the case of variations of the order that the Bill be now read a third—and, I dearly hope, which are consequential on the Bill. This amendment final—time. now extends the disapplication of Section 161(5) to cover variations which are consequential on the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, very briefly, Arbitration (Scotland) Act 2010. Clause 21(5) will on behalf of the whole House, I thank the noble Lord, enable the Competition Commission to make these Lord Steel, for his perseverance in taking this Bill consequential changes in a straightforward way, following through. We shall have to see what happens in the enactment of the Bill. I beg to move. 611 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] 612

Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I welcome this order made” by the Competition Commission under amendment and I am grateful to the Minister who, as Section 161 of the Enterprise Act 2002. The Minister she indicated in her introductory remarks, had said may tell us that that is unnecessary because any successor that she would bring such an amendment forward. It order would, as is usual, replace the 2009 order and is relatively simple and I am grateful to her for being as the Bill would apply to the new order. If that is so, I good as her word and achieving this before the Bill would be grateful for confirmation. leaves your Lordships’ House. I would also be grateful for confirmation of a few I am also grateful that she recognised that this arose other things following the events of the weekend. from my worrying away at the arbitration provisions Following the blockading of dairy processors by farmers, of the Bill. I was aided and abetted by the inestimable crisis talks were held at the Royal Welsh Show on Michael Clancy, who is the law reform director of the Sunday, led by Mr Jim Paice, the farming Minister. Law Society of Scotland. I think we should call this According to every news report I have seen, the Minister the Clancy amendment, actually, because his work said that he would raise within government the possibility uncovered this lacuna in the Bill, which the Government of a role for the grocery code adjudicator in providing have graciously recognised and corrected. a means of arbitration for a code governing the whole Of course, this provision anticipates that the supply chain for the dairy industry. This means that Competition Commission will amend the order. The the issue that we voted on last Monday is effectively very process of amending the order, in the light of the being reopened by the Government. The Companion next amendment that we come to, is a mouth-watering states at paragraph 8.146 relating to admissibility of prospect and creates a great opportunity for the farmers amendments: of the United Kingdom to have some sort of step “The principal purposes of amendments on third reading are taken that protects their livelihoods for the future. … to clarify any remaining uncertainties”. I do not want to anticipate that amendment, but we now know that the order will need to be amended I am mindful that the Companion goes on to say that because of this simple provision. I am grateful to the an issue that has been fully debated and voted on Minister for the way in which she has conducted cannot be reopened, which is why I have moved this herself throughout the consideration of this Bill, and amendment in relation to Clause 22. her willingness—and the willingness of her Bill team—to I merely want the Minister to use this opportunity listen to arguments for change to the Bill, and to allow to clarify the uncertainty around the Government’s them. I entirely support this amendment. position. Has the noble Baroness spoken to Jim Paice about extending the role of the adjudicator since this Amendment 1 agreed. weekend? On Report, she said: Clause 22 : Definitions “As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has said, the specifics of the dairy industry are being considered elsewhere in government. The adjudicator is not intended to address every problem in the Amendment 2 sector, and the adjudicator’s role is clearly limited to the relationship Moved by Lord Knight of Weymouth between retailers and their suppliers under the groceries code”. 2: Clause 22, page 10, line 8, at end insert “and as varied by Is that still the Government’s position despite the any subsequent order made under that section” position of the farming Minister? The Minister also said that, Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, after a good Report stage last Monday, when we were grateful to “it is for the competition authorities to decide whether or not to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, for some concessions, amend the code—not … the Secretary of State”.—[Official Report, 16/7/12; col. 17.] particularly her generosity to my noble friend Lord Browne, I did not think that there was anything left for Does that extend to Jim Paice? I know he does not us to do today at Third Reading, because we want this know the price of milk but does he know about the to get on the statute book as soon as possible. I share independence of the competition authorities from the comments of my noble friend Lord Browne in Ministers? Is there any question of him now asking respect of the way in which the Minister has handled the competition authorities to extend the code or to the passage of the Bill through this House, and I am come up with an additional one? grateful to her Bill team and to those who have assisted The Minister persuaded the House, including an me. impressive solid turnout from the Lib Dems, as ever, Naturally, I was disappointed not to have persuaded with their effective new Chief Whip, to defeat any enough of your Lordships of the need to give the notion of extending the code. This amendment merely adjudicator teeth but I naturally respect the clear will seeks to be helpful in case Jim Paice is driving a policy of the House and hope that that issue can be addressed on this from Defra rather than the noble Baroness or in the other place. I was also disappointed that we Norman Lamb driving it from BIS. I doubt whether gained nothing on the issue of a living code, but I also the Minister will accept it but I would be grateful for regarded that issue as settled. answers to three simple questions. First, has she spoken However, all that changed at the weekend, which is to Jim Paice about this since the weekend? Secondly, is why we are revisiting an issue raised in an amendment it still government policy that the code will apply only that was not moved on Report by my noble friend to the relationship between direct suppliers and large Lord Kennedy of Southwark. The amendment is simple retailers? Thirdly, will the Government be asking the enough in ensuring in clear English that the groceries Competition Commission to revise or devise a code to code supply order is defined to include, “any subsequent cover prices across the dairy supply chain? 613 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][24 JULY 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] 614

Viscount Eccles: Does what the noble Lord said will be making a Written Statement tomorrow. However, mean that he is not really moving an amendment at I would like to give some reassurance on this issue, all? although I emphasise that these discussions are not within the remit of the amendment. I have not spoken Lord Knight of Weymouth: Yes, I am moving an to Jim Paice over the last few days, but I am sure we amendment. But it is also a way to allow the Government will have such discussions in the future. The remit of to resolve an uncertainty around the role of the groceries the groceries code adjudicator is clearly defined and code adjudicator, which is the subject of the Bill that will remain so. The proposed code for dairy is voluntary we are hoping to pass today. I beg to move. and any adjudicator for that code would be a separate person. Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I was not Our adjudicator will, of course, be able to intervene present at this weekend’s negotiations, so I rely upon to address any instances of supermarkets breaching the reporting in farming publications and on the BBC the groceries code in their dealings with their dairy for what took place. My understanding is that, as a suppliers. Dairy farmers who are indirect suppliers result of those negotiations, it was agreed that an will also be able to bring issues to the attention of the order was necessary to cover the issues that had arisen adjudicator, for instance if they believe that an in the pricing of milk provided by suppliers to processors. intermediary processor who is being treated unfairly We understand that the Government intend to assist under the code might in turn pass pressure on to them. in the negotiation of an order similar to the groceries Colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food code order which is at the basis of this legislation. I and Rural Affairs are deeply concerned about the also understand—it was covered liberally in the media— situation of dairy farmers and are considering a range that the farming Minister, Jim Paice, told all and of ways to help them. We will of course continue to sundry that he would consider whether that order listen carefully to any concerns raised by farmers required an adjudicator. We are legislating for an themselves or by colleagues in government or Parliament. adjudicator in this area and setting out the framework I cannot comment further on the specific points raised for the adjudicator to operate. As the Competition by the Minister of State for Agriculture and Food, as Commission will now have to amend the order at the these statements were made only recently and he has basis of this Bill, could it be persuaded, once an order not yet made any suggestions to me or my department. is negotiated, to incorporate this agreed order into the new order that it promulgates? By that simple stroke, we would get an order that covered this area and the 3.45 pm adjudicator that the Minister apparently wants. Is that However, as noble Lords are aware, pricing is not possible? within the code’s remit, and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, referred to this in his opening remarks. The Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the relationship between code addresses contractual relationships between the this Bill and the groceries supply order is evidently an large retailers and their direct suppliers, not those important one. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, has elsewhere in the supply chain. Concerns in the dairy proposed a technical amendment to ensure that references sector specifically require a different kind of intervention to the groceries supply order will refer to the order as from that provided by the code and adjudicator. That varied, if that order is subsequently varied. There is no is why Government are seeking swift agreement from general rule of construction as to whether references the milk industry on a voluntary code of practice for to an instrument include references to any future dairy producers specifically. variations of that instrument. This depends on the Colleagues in the Department for Environment, details of the context and the drafting in each case. In Food and Rural Affairs will be able to provide more this case, the Government are confident that the current details on this important issue, including in the Written drafting of the Bill would already have the intended Statement to be made by my noble friend Lord Taylor effect, which is that references in the Bill to the order tomorrow. However, I can tell noble Lords that farmers include any future variations made under Section 161 and dairy processors have already agreed the main of the Enterprise Act. It would not make sense for the points of a dairy industry voluntary code of practice adjudicator to exercise his or her enforcement and on milk contracts. The finer details of this code are compliance functions by reference to a version of the expected to be finalised by all parties by the end of order which was different from the version binding the August. In addition, the Government are providing retailers at the relevant time. direct help for dairy farmers in the form of £5 million As further evidence of this position, perhaps I might additional funding under the rural development also direct the noble Lord towards Clauses 16(4) and programme to increase competitiveness and marketing 21(5), which contemplate amendments to the groceries skills. supply order. This makes it clear that the references to The Department for Environment, Food and Rural the groceries supply order are also meant to include Affairs will continue to work closely with the industry. any future variations in this case. Tomorrow, Ministers from that department will be I will now turn briefly to the other issue which the meeting retailers individually to talk about increasing noble Lord has raised and on which I am happy to dairy industry sustainability through greater sourcing give him the reassurance he wants. The Government and promotion of British dairy products. The Government share the natural concerns of noble Lords about the are committed to continuing to work with all parts of situation of dairy farmers. In light of the obvious the industry to ensure that it has a sustainable, profitable interest in this matter, my noble friend Lord Taylor future. 615 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 616

[BARONESS WILCOX] We look forward to the Statement from the noble I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, tomorrow. I respectfully that dairy farmers are not being forgotten. Having ask that some consideration be given as to whether moved away from the terms of today’s amendment that could be an Oral Statement and not just a Written to address these broader points, I reiterate that the Statement, because Members of this House may have Government are confident that the Bill as it stands some questions they would like to be able to ask. already achieves implicitly what the amendment would Perhaps the noble Baroness could take that back and make explicit. References to the order and the code in discuss it with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in their this Bill can already be understood to mean the order office. In the mean time, I am very happy to withdraw and the code as updated from time to time. I therefore my amendment. ask the noble Lord, Lord Knight, to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 2 withdrawn.

Lord Plumb: My Lords, I support the Minister’s A privilege amendment was made. response. I waited for her comments before I spoke because I was not sure of the exact position now. I tell Bill passed and sent to the Commons. the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that the negotiations did not take place on Sunday. They took place yesterday. Electoral Registration and I declare an interest: I was there—not at the negotiations but not far away—and I had a long talk with the Administration Bill Minister, Jim Paice, afterwards and with many of Second Reading those present who are directly concerned with this issue. 3.52 pm Following the answer given by the Minister, I do Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire not honestly see any need for the noble Lord’s concern or, in fact, the amendment. It would be advisable to That the Bill be read a second time. wait for the Written Statement due tomorrow because, Relevant document: 6th Report from the Delegated as my noble friend said, milk will not be left out of this Powers Committee. package. Anyone who is appointed to a job as an adjudicator or is concerned with the grocery trade will realise that within it we have a voluntary code of Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the aim of the practice that has virtually been agreed by all parties, Bill is to tackle electoral fraud, to increase the number and which we have been waiting for for some considerable of people registered to vote, to give people greater time. Now that the code is there, the dairy trade will ownership of their own registration and to improve inevitably be not only included but prominent in the the integrity of the register. The Bill also includes concern of any adjudicator or in any response that one provisions to improve the administration and conduct might have after the appointment of an adjudicator. of elections, which will serve to increase voter participation, and to make a number of improvements to the running I therefore feel confident that there is at the moment of elections. no need for the amendment. We should accept the statement made by the Minister here, and we look Last year, the Cabinet Office funded the Electoral forward to the further report from the Agriculture Commission to carry out a detailed analysis of the Minister tomorrow on the whole situation of the dairy completeness and accuracy of the electoral register in trade. Great Britain. It showed that as of December 2010 the electoral register was 85% to 87% complete and by April 2011 was 85% accurate. This translates to there Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I am grateful being over 6 million people missing from the electoral to the Minister for her clarifications and to the noble register compared with some 3 million estimated 10 years Lord, Lord Plumb, who is never far away from where earlier. things are at on these matters and who always speaks with authority on them. I certainly have no wish to To provide some perspective, Northern Ireland, interfere with the negotiations or with the voluntary which introduced individual registration in 2002, now code that is being agreed. I very much applaud the has an electoral register which is also 85% complete negotiations and the agreements that are coming forward. but is 94% accurate. This Bill, by facilitating the use of Clearly, we had a job to do—to scrutinise the Bill—and such things as online registration and data matching, there was some uncertainty I was looking to be resolved. will help tackle the problem of declining registration. I am surprised that the Farming Minister did not In doing so, the Government place equal importance think it was appropriate to give the Bill Minister in the on the completeness and accuracy of the register. Lords a call regarding these things because it was Britain is one of the few countries in the world still fairly obvious these issues might come up today, but to rely on a system of household registration, inherited that is for the noble Baroness and her colleague to from the period when only heads of household voted. resolve. I think I heard her say correctly from a note A system that relies on this notion of the head of that there would be a separate adjudicator if there was household does not engender any personal responsibility to be an adjudicator for the voluntary code. We would for being registered or promote a person’s ownership subsequently want to explore the efficiency of that of their vote. It is increasingly unsuitable in multi- arrangement and exactly how it would be drawn up occupation dwellings, where it may not even be clear and what status it would have. who the head of household is. 617 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 618

As well as the current problem with completeness, If an individual fails to make an application after the system is also unacceptably open to fraud. There is the first invitation, the registration officer will send widespread concern about electoral fraud in this country. them another invitation to register. If they fail to If citizens do not have confidence in the integrity of apply, the registration officer will be required to send a the electoral register, they will not have confidence in door-to-door canvasser to encourage their application. the integrity of election outcomes. For a number of The registration may also, in specified circumstances, years, observers of UK elections have highlighted require an individual to make an application by a concerns about the registration system. In its election certain date—and if an individual fails to do so, a civil assessment mission report on the general election of penalty may be issued. 2010, the OSCE’s Office for Democratic Institutions At the same time, properties with no registered and Human Rights described the voter registration electors, and properties where a registration officer system in Great Britain as the weakest link in the believes that there are unregistered residents, will be electoral process because of the absence of safeguards sent a household canvass form to help identify potential against fictitious registrations. It recommended: new electors whom the registration officer will invite “Consideration should be given to introducing an identification to register, and follow up, as I set out. Following this requirement for voters when applying for registration as a safeguard canvass, a register will be produced, and only where a against fraudulent registration”. registration officer determines that an existing elector That is why in the Bill we are legislating to speed up is no longer eligible will they be removed from the the introduction of individual registration. The register register. In other words, there will be a “carry forward” published after the 2015 annual canvass will consist of provision for existing electors so that, even if they have entries that, with the exception of some of those for not had their details confirmed, and they have not the Armed Forces, have all been individually verified. made a successful new individual application in 2014, This is a position that the Electoral Commission supports. they will still be able to vote at the 2015 general Jenny Watson, chair of the commission, when commenting election. However, any individual who wishes to vote on alleged malpractice in the London mayoral elections, by post or proxy at the 2015 general election will have said: had to have made a successful new application or have been confirmed and retained on the register through “The Electoral Commission wants to see our registration system tightened up and it’s good that the Government plans to data matching. The electors who lose their postal or introduce new laws to do this which will apply to any of us who proxy vote will be informed and encouraged to register want to vote by post before the 2015 General Election”. individually. Some individuals have advocated introducing a Following this canvass, and up to the 2015 general requirement for electors to provide some form of ID election, individuals will be able register at any time. at a polling station. In considering any such proposal, After the 2015 general election, registration officers we need to maintain a balance between security and will carry out another full household canvass. The new accessibility, and to avoid introducing measures that household canvass form will be pre-populated—that would risk disenfranchising legitimate electors. The is, the names will already be on it—with the names of Electoral Commission is looking to carry out a review those electors who have successfully applied to be of the existing policy and is not asking for any changes registered under the new system and those confirmed to be made at this stage. The Government therefore through data matching. have no plans to introduce ID at polling stations at Before the end of the 2015 canvass, registration this time, but will give careful consideration to any officers will send personally addressed application forms findings that emerge from the commission’s review. to existing electors who have not yet made a new Before I set out what we plan to do to reach successful application and whose details were not individuals who are not registered, I will briefly set out confirmed at the beginning of the transition. This acts the transition from the current to the new system and as a final reminder for the individual to make an the steps we are taking to ensure that legitimately application before their name is removed from the registered electors will not be removed from the register register. Following this canvass, registration officers in the transition to individual registration. The last will remove all electors, except some service personnel, canvass under the current system will be postponed who have not made a successful application to register from autumn 2013 to spring 2014. This will ensure under the new system and whose details were not that the register will be as up to date as possible before confirmed through data matching. the transition to the new system in 2014. Let us be clear that, by this stage, this group will We plan to confirm about two-thirds of existing have been data matched to try to confirm them entries by matching the names and addresses of every automatically in 2014, invited to register with a follow-up elector on the register against the Department for by post and in person in both the autumn of 2014 and Work and Pensions’ customer information system. the autumn of 2015, and received a final notification Following this data match, electoral registration officers that they will be removed from the register. They will will carry out an amended canvass in the summer and also have had the opportunity to register when political autumn of 2014. The remaining one-third of electors awareness was at its highest prior to the 2015 general whose details have not been confirmed through data election. The transition that I have just outlined, matching will be sent a personal invitation to register particularly the use of data matching to retain under the new system. At the same time, the Electoral automatically the majority of electors on the register, Commission will run a publicity campaign to inform will ensure that the registers created during the transition the general public of the change to the new system. to individual electoral registration will be robust. 619 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 620

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] developments. For example, in future it may be that a We are not aiming merely to stem the decline in the data matching exercise such as that used in Northern proportion of electors registering. The move to individual Ireland may be able to replace some or all of the registration will also open up opportunities to improve canvass, thus simplifying the registration process further the completeness of the register in Great Britain. The for individuals. I should remind the House that it was Bill will, for example, facilitate online registration. the previous Government who abolished the annual This will make it more convenient for individuals to canvass in Northern Ireland under the Northern Ireland register to vote; more accessible for people with visual (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006. The use of this impairments; and easier for young people. It will also power is subject, in addition, to strict safeguards including, make the whole process of electoral registration more but not limited to, consulting the Electoral Commission efficient. We intend that the online system will be fully on any proposal and requiring it to produce a report. operational when the transition to individual registration We have allocated £108 million over the spending begins. review period to fund the costs of transition. We will Following the example of Northern Ireland, the be funding local authorities in England and Wales Bill will also enable the use of data mining to find directly through grants under Section 31 of the Local potential eligible electors who are missing from the Government Act 2003, allocated for the purposes of register. Last year, we ran pilots for the first time to paying for the transition. In Scotland, electoral registration test this process in Great Britain and, subject to is carried out for the most part by electoral registration parliamentary approval, we plan to run a further set in officers who, barring the two exceptions of the City of February and March 2013 to test their use for identifying Dundee and Fife, are independent of each local authority. key target groups. The results of these pilots will allow The additional costs of implementing the new system us to see which data sets can be of most use for will be paid directly to them. electoral registration officers. I hope that noble Lords will accept that this Bill, We are also currently taking steps to maximise which has already undergone pre-legislative scrutiny registration among under-registered groups. This will and significant consequent changes, represents a include working with a range of partner organisations, reasonable set of proposals which will safeguard the including Bite the Ballot and Operation Black Vote, to completeness of the register during the transition to reach groups currently under-registered by testing a individual electoral registration. range of activities. Officials have also recently met the I turn now to the clauses in the Bill concerning the National Union of Students. administration and conduct of elections. They address I want to touch briefly on some features of the Bill issues that have been raised by parliamentarians and that were debated in the other place. The first of these stakeholders and make a number of practical and is the new civil penalty. It is our intention that the sensible changes that will help to deliver more effective warning on invitations to register, well before the electoral administration. The Bill includes provisions question of imposing a civil penalty arises, will help that extend the electoral timetable for UK parliamentary encourage people to do their civic duty and register to elections from 17 to 25 days. At present, postal voters vote. The Bill provides that after a registration officer have a maximum period of two calendar weeks to has followed specified steps, they can require an individual receive and return their postal ballot pack, but that to make an application. We have already published shrinks when the time taken to print and distribute the draft secondary legislation which sets out these specified packs is factored in. This creates a particular problem steps. The Bill also sets out that the size of the civil for service voters based abroad, their families and penalty will be stipulated in regulations. We are of the other overseas voters. The changes will address these view that the penalty should be within the parking fine problems by increasing the time period to up to four spectrum, and the draft regulations set out the arguments calendar weeks. for it being at the lower end, at around £40, or at the To assist with the understanding of this proposal higher end at around £130. We will shortly be engaging and the related proposal to require electoral registration with relevant stakeholders to seek views as to the officers to publish two additional updates to the electoral appropriate level and we will make a decision based on register in the run-up to an election, I will today place these discussions. in the Library of each House a paper which sets out in It is also the Government’s intention to produce detail the current electoral timetable, our proposed further iterations of the draft legislation by the time extension of that timetable, and the benefits it will this House returns from the Summer Recess. These bring. The Bill also includes provisions that relate to will include the regulations setting out the appeal postal voters whose votes are rejected at an election procedure for any civil penalties issued and the because their postal vote identifiers do not match with enforcement mechanism. This will enable the House the identifiers stored on record. The Bill will enable to debate the details of the civil penalty scheme while regulations to be made that will place electoral registration the Bill is in Committee. officers under a duty to inform electors, after the election, if they fall into this category. However, electoral Another issue that aroused debate when the Bill registration officers will continue to be able to use was in the other place was Clause 6, which provides their discretion not to inform such persons if any for a power to abolish or amend the annual canvass. I impropriety is suspected. want to put it on record that the Government have no current intention to abolish the annual canvass. It is, Alongside this measure, the Government plan to however, sensible to take this power now as it will introduce secondary legislation to require that postal allow future Governments to keep pace with technological vote identifiers are checked for 100% of postal votes, 621 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 622 as opposed to the current 20%, at elections to strengthen about the fact that that individual voter registration is the integrity of the electoral process and to provide an desirable in order to reduce the possibility of fraud. additional safeguard against electoral fraud. The Bill Indeed, the Labour Government introduced individual also includes provisions to allow the Secretary of State voter registration. The issue is not the merits of that. to withhold or reduce a returning officer’s fee for The issue is how one introduces it and how one strikes reasons of poor performance, on a recommendation a balance between reducing fraud on one hand and by the independent Electoral Commission. These ensuring that there is not a significant reduction in the provisions will help to ensure that returning officers number of people on the register on the other. I are accountable for their actions in respect of the anticipate as well that there is agreement right across conduct of parliamentary elections, making them liable the House that the level of reduction in registration to lose out on some or all of the fee that they receive will have a damaging effect on democracy. for their services in connection with an election if The current registration process is essentially a there has been a clear failure to provide an adequate combination of household registration and rolling service. registration. With household registration, a form is In sum, the Bill will help to stem and reverse the sent to each household and one person fills it in with recent decline in the completeness of our electoral the names of all the people there. Once the form gets register, to tackle fraud and to improve the integrity, back to the electoral administration, all those names administration and conduct of elections. I commend remain on the register for as long as the ERO believes the Bill to the House. that the people still live at that house. There is also a process of rolling registration whereby individuals can either change their existing registration or make a new 4.11 pm application if they are not on the register. That system Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I thank the involves producing no proof as to who you are; it Minister for introducing the Bill. This is a constitutional involves very little trouble to be on the register. Bill. It comes out of the coalition agreement, which Individual electoral registration means that you mentions reducing, have to fill in a form individually and produce proof— “electoral fraud by speeding up the implementation of individual including a national insurance number, date of birth voter registration”. and something else—that you are the person who lives This Bill is important. Once bitten, twice shy, as far as at the particular address. This is much more difficult—not the Liberal Democrats are concerned. We understand remotely impossible but more difficult—and the from what the Liberal Democrat leader says that, consequence is almost bound to be that fewer people depending on what happens in relation to House of will register. Lords reform, they may renege on one of the other What is the wrong that we are seeking to right by Bills that came out of the coalition agreement, namely making it more difficult to register? We are seeking to the now Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies deal with electoral fraud. Mr Mark Harper, the gentleman Act. I do not know whether this Bill fits within the in the other place who is responsible for promoting same category. The two other constitutional Bills that this Bill, describes electoral fraud in this country as have come out of the coalition agreement are the “rare”. Anecdotally, the feeling is that electoral fraud House of Lords Reform Bill, which is widely regarded does take place in this country but it is much rarer here as poor, and the now Fixed-term Parliaments Act, than in almost any other country— which is also widely regarded as poor. The significance of these points—apart from a little Lord Dobbs: I believe that what the Minister in the dig at the Liberal Democrats—is to indicate that this other place said was that “proven electoral fraud” was House has an especial responsibility in relation to a rare, which is very different from suggesting that fraud Bill such as this because we know it is the product of a itself is rare. rather unsatisfactory political arrangement. Therefore, the role that we should perform in this House is to see whether it has a detrimental effect on our democracy Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, my recollection or genuinely promotes a proper democratic situation. is that he said it was “rare” but I will check that, if I am glad that we will hear from noble Lords from I may, and see precisely what he said. My reading of Northern Ireland who have had some experience of Mr Mark Harper’s case was not that there was actually individual voter registration. I am glad that we will a lot of fraud; his point was that one wanted to hear from my noble friend Lord Wills, who had increase confidence in the system. My recollection of responsibility for introducing individual voter registration. Mr Mark Harper’s speech was that he was saying that I am also glad that we will hear from people on all fraud was rare, but an opinion poll says that 36% of sides of the House who have been engaged in the people are worried that there is fraud in the system. process of running election campaigns on behalf on The Bill is to deal with confidence in the system. We individual political parties. on this side of the House are not averse to trying to The Bill does two things. First, it changes the increase confidence. As long as it does not have a timetable and the approach to the introduction of damaging effect on the number of people who participate individual voter registration. Secondly—and separately—it in our democracy, it is a sensible way to go. makes provision for the administration and conduct The proposal—indeed, it became law in 2009—was of elections. I will restrict my remarks to the first, to allow individual registration on a voluntary basis. which is the first part of the Bill. There is no dispute Each year the Electoral Commission would report on between the Conservative Party and the Labour Party how that was going; then in 2014, after the process had 623 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 624

[LORD FALCONER OF THOROTON] not do that, I will get knocked off the register. Have been going for some time, the Electoral Commission the Government made an estimate of how many people would give advice to Parliament on whether or not to they think will not go through that process? If so, move from a household system to an individual electoral could they tell us what it is? registration system. This House could then make a Am I not also right in saying that the boundary decision as to whether or not the risks to our democracy review that will take place for the election in 2020—if in terms of the number of people who were not the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 leads to five-year registered were safe enough for the move to be made. I elections—will be based on the electoral register that respectfully submit that that is an extremely sensible will come into existence on 1 December 2015? In those way of dealing with it. circumstances we will have new constituencies brought When this House last debated the issue of how into existence on the basis of the first shot at individual many people were not registered, we proceeded on the electoral registration. basis that the register was probably 91% or 92% accurate. There is no dispute, from anybody who has looked To their great credit, the Government financed the at this, that the people who are least likely to register Electoral Commission to do further research in relation are the young, the very old, the disabled, those from to that. This was published at the end of last year and black and minority-ethnic communities, and those in showed that in fact we were underestimating the level private rented accommodation. The danger of all this of under-registration. From my reading of that research, is that you end up with your social class, your colour at its peak the level of registration appears to be 82%, or your capacity determining whether you are registered meaning that at certain times of the year, depending or not. We should be doing our best as a nation to on how far away you are from an annual canvass, as have individual electoral registration—but surely on many as 18% are not registered in this country. By my the basis that it applies right across the board. Everybody calculation that is some 8.5 million people. I would agrees that it is worth while, but I am completely have thought that the consequence of making registration unable to understand why a sensible, monitored more complicated is bound to increase the number of introduction is not taking place. What is the motivation people who are not registered. for not doing what people regard as sensible, in a What is wrong with making sure that, before one sensible way? The Liberal Democrats say that the gets there, one has done as much as one can to get as Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act few people as possible to drop out? Why has the is a piece of legislation that was designed to help the programme been changed? Why are we not taking care Conservative Party—and that came out of the coalition of this? We will propose first, by way of amendment, agreement. Is this the same? We need an explanation that there should be monitoring as to how the process as to why this important building block in our democracy is going; and secondly, that we as a Parliament should is being dealt with in what appears, on the face of it, to get advice from the Electoral Commission as to whether be a rather cavalier way. Would the sensible thing not it is sensible to do such a thing. be to stick to the timescale, with annual monitoring Following the points that the transition is being and the report to Parliament, so we know where we made too fast and that there is no monitoring of its stand in relation to it? effect, the next point is the boundary review. As I There are three other matters. First, I am unable to understand what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said, understand why those who are currently registered for there will be a canvass during 2014, and the only a proxy or postal vote are not carrying forward their people who will be knocked off the register will be right to a proxy or postal vote for the purposes of the people who the electoral registration officer is satisfied 2015 election. That appears both an unnecessary are not resident at the address. Even if you do not regulation and one that is very difficult to justify. make an application and even if you do not provide any identifiers, you will not get knocked off the register Secondly, additional resources will presumably be in 2014 unless the ERO believes that you do not live required in order to achieve the handover or transition there. Can the noble Lord confirm that in his winding-up that we have been talking about. The Cabinet Office remarks? However, as I understand the position, in has been kind enough to publish something called the 2015 those who can be data-matched with the DWP high-level implementation timeline, which involves this material will be put on the register without having to year, 2012, for local authorities. Those involved in make an application. Again, I hope that the noble local delivery will be asked to plan for the introduction Lord will confirm or deny that in his winding-up of individual electoral registration at a local level, remarks. which will include working out what resources they need. They will also be asked to play an important role In relation to the noble Lord’s estimate, which I in developing and testing the new capability to be have no basis for challenging, from 1 December 2015 rolled out more widely in 2013. Will the Minister tell the one-third of the electorate who are not data-matched the House how that is going? That is at paragraph 7 of with the DWP material will get knocked off the register the notes accompanying the high-level timeline. For unless each one of them makes an individual application 2013, the timeline envisages that: and produces the necessary identifiers. That is my understanding of how the transition and the system “Electoral Registration Officers and Electoral Administrators will work. If I am not one of the two-thirds of the will have IT systems put in place, other resources acquired and electorate, if I am one of the one-third, I will have to capabilities—including staff training—built during this phase”— fill in a form and provide the individual identifier—indeed, in 2013— I think it will be three individual identifiers, one of “in readiness for go-live in the following year. All local capability which will be my national insurance number. If I do needs will be ready by the end of this phase”, 625 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 626 that is, by the end of 2013. Can the noble Lord to vote in our country, but there is absolutely no doubt indicate what budget has been set aside to put those that after it was introduced there was a flood of capabilities in place, what progress has been made in fraudulent activities. I will give noble Lords some idea relation to the development of the IT systems required, of its extent. Recorded proceedings were taken and and whether he anticipates any teething difficulties in charges were laid in the following places: Birmingham, relation to it? Can he also tell this House the extent to twice; Coventry; Burnley, twice; Halifax; Middlesbrough; which the Government’s proposals depend on their IT Rochdale; Leicester; Pendle; Hyndburn; Blackburn; systems working properly? Woking; Slough; Peterborough; Reading; Oldham; Bradford; and Tower Hamlets which has become the Finally, we on this side of the House will take care centre of this activity and where there is an ongoing to examine these proposals in considerable detail. If criminal investigation. they go wrong, there could be a substantial reduction in the number of people on the register. Currently, it The original cases in 2005-06 were principally between could be as low as 82%. What would be the consequences the Labour and Liberal Parties in the northern cities. to our democracy if it went to somewhere in the low The Conservative Party was no slouch in this. It 70s or even the high 60s? That would be extremely quickly got in on the act and there was really no damaging. The question that underlies our approach difference between the various parties in this matter: to this Bill is: why on earth are the Government taking all parties have engaged in that sort of fraud. this risk with our democracy? Lord Wills: I am very grateful to the noble Lord for 4.30 pm giving way. Perhaps he could help the House by saying two things. First, what percentage of total votes cast Lord Baker of Dorking: My Lords, it is entirely were represented by those challenges in that long list appropriate that this unelected second Chamber should that he outlined? Secondly, is he familiar with the 2008 be debating, probing, examining and questioning the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust study on postal voting? electoral system in our country. As none of us is If he is not, I suggest he familiarises himself with it. I elected, we can approach this with a degree of objectivity am going to quote extensively from it later in my and dispassion, which was how the noble and learned speech. I will not tire the House with it now, but I hope Lord began his remarks. I welcome that; it is a sort of that the noble Lord will stay around to hear exactly oblique argument in favour of not having an elected what it said about the extent of postal vote fraud. element to this House, but I leave that debate for another day. The independence of this House in electoral matters Lord Baker of Dorking: I am familiar with the was very much evidenced in 2004 when postal voting Rowntree report and I intend to quote something by demand, introduced by the Labour Government in from it which rather refutes it, so we will have an an Act in 2001, was eventually implemented that year exchange of quotations later. On percentages, the point by another Act. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord about the list I have read out is that this particular Wills, was involved at the time, as was one of his fraud has certain characteristics. It is urban and it is in colleagues. This House insisted that there should be marginal seats. In many seats where there is a clear proof of identity in postal voting. That was resisted by majority, either for the Labour Party or the Conservative the House of Commons again and again, and there Party, there is no fraud because it is unnecessary: it was an episode of ping pong. Eventually a proof of will not affect the result. It will affect the result only in identity was put on to the statute book, which I think marginal seats where a small balance of a small number is entirely appropriate. Anyone who has fought in an of votes can determine who is going to win at a local election, as have seven or eight speakers in the debate, election or at a general election. That is the comparison knows how important the register is. They will also that one must make. recognise how out of date and inaccurate it is, and This fraud takes place in high-density communities how frustrating it is to be met by your supporters with crowded premises in towns and cities. There is a during an election campaign who say, “I’m afraid I am high turnover because people are moving all the time not registered”. We have all had that experience. There from flat to flat and from residence to residence. There might be a case for late registration, which should be is often a floating population which can generate what looked at by the Electoral Commission and possibly has been described by some electoral pundits as clan by the Government. loyalty whereby people want to see their immediate The purpose of the Bill is to try to suppress fraud. friends and colleagues elected. Many of these cases Fraud in election comes in many shapes and sizes. The have landed up in court and there has been the old traditional one was a straightforward impersonation imprisonment and bankruptcy of some of the people in the ballot room—you turned up and said that you involved. Mayors and councillors have been involved, were somebody you were not. I think it was derived and reputations have been destroyed. It has been a from the old Irish custom of polling the dead, but very sad episode. It is in the interests of all our parties wherever it came from that was the most likely method. to try to eliminate this as much as we can. If you look at the recent fraudulent cases, you will see In May 2010, the Sunday Times reported that 27 people that that rarely happens now. Fraud in elections has were registered in a single property in Southall and in become much more sophisticated, and the real fraud February this year the Evening Standard reported that now in elections takes place as a result of having a dozens of flats in Tower Hamlets were registered with postal vote by demand. There is a good case for that in eight people per bedroom. The quotation that I shall trying to increase the number of people who are going use, which is rather later that the Rowntree report, 627 Electoral Registration and Admin. 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[LORD BAKER OF DORKING] your signature. That was done in only three-quarters comes from Judge Richard Mawrey, the expert on of the cases. I would have thought that it would be electoral fraud in our country. He has dealt with many necessary to make that mandatory for all seats. cases. He said that, One other matter I would draw to the attention of “where a small number of votes will make a considerable difference, the Government is the spate of fraud from about 2005 then the opportunities for fraud are enormous, the chances of detection very small, and a relatively modest amount of fraud will to this year, mainly based around postal votes, and guarantee you win the election”. only partially on proxy votes. There have been one or That is the problem we have to face. What can one do two cases of late where the fraud seems to have moved about that? to proxy voting. There was one case where somebody turned up with 50 proxy votes; that is just like the I remember when I first stood in a council election 18th century. The Duke of Newcastle turned up with back in the 1950s. In those days, if you wanted a a number of votes and said, “That’s it”. I would have postal vote or a proxy vote—fellow parliamentarians thought that there is a case for saying that anybody will remember this—you had to justify it and explain who has a proxy vote should have a vote for only one that you were elderly, housebound, bedbound, were other person—not for another 50—to bring to the going to be abroad or out of town, or worked in a poll. That is not in the Bill; perhaps the Government town that was different from the town in which you might consider that carefully, to see whether such an were registered to vote. There was a variety of reasons. amendment could be introduced. You had to have that application signed by a magistrate, an MP, a doctor or a professional person. I well I would make only these further points. This Bill remember—and I am sure my noble friend Lord Rennard also extends the length of the campaign from 17 days will remember because in these matters I look upon to 25. I do not know where this proposal came from; him as a professional expert—that in those days in all I always thought that 17 days was quite enough for a constituency fights you had a committee of people campaign. One of the great virtues of our system is who sought out postal votes for your party. I think the that we have a short, sharp campaign. In America, it Liberal Party was the first to do so, but we followed lasts for a year or 18 months, but in Britain, 17 days quite quickly. You identified people who you knew was absolutely ideal. I do not why we need another were going to be abroad and got them registered. I eight days for campaigning, when one counted and would go back to something like that, but that may be ticked off the days and the hours and hoped for a little unrealistic unless the checks and balances that polling day. That will be a big expense for the parties; we create are effective. they will need quite a bit more money to run the campaign for another week. It seems to be government If this business of postal fraud continues—and I policy and also I suppose coalition policy, too. It think we are going to try to stop it with this Bill, very was—good Lord. In that case, I support it, although imperfectly, if I may say so—what can one do? The I do not really see the justification for it. basis of the previous system was verification by an outsider. Under postal vote by demand the verification The other point I shall touch on is the extraordinary is by the registered person and, as the Minister said civil penalty which has been created: that the returning and the noble Lord confirmed, there will be three officer imposes a civil penalty on people who do not qualifications: a signature, a date of birth and a national register. That reminded me of the Anglican confession: insurance number. This is going to be a matter for the “We have left undone those things which we ought to have Secretary of State to lay down in regulations after the done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have Bill. Perhaps the Minister can confirm that the national done”. insurance number will be added. That would certainly deal with the problem of illegal immigrants because It seems extraordinary to create a civil penalty and a the national insurance number is the closest thing we fine for not doing something. It would face enormous in this country have to a national number. trouble in the courts. I am sure the Minister is aware that there are very strange religious cults in our country, Other checks are important. The canvass is important. which are not remotely concerned with the electoral There is going to be a canvass in 2014. That means system here; they are mainly concerned about the that returning officers will have to carry out a canvass. accessibility of the next world. They will certainly tell I remember this happening once in Dorking. It surprised their supporters on no account to bother to register. everybody. People were visited by people from the Sure enough, there will be a case with some awkward council who knocked on doors to see who lived there person who will actually go to court and challenge and who they were, but it happened only once during this, and almost certainly end up in a human rights my 30 years-plus in the House of Commons. I think it court, challenging whether his human rights have been is an important step in the verification of electoral denied by not registering. He would be hauled up registers, and there is a possibility that it could be because he had not performed his civic duty. Civic suspended, postponed or done only partially, and that duty is another extraordinary concept of this Bill and is quite wrong. I have not come across this previously in legislation. I The other check is the verification of postal votes know it as a concept. When the human rights court by returning officers. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, gets such a case before it, it will almost certainly find answered a Question last year or the year before about in favour of the litigant. After all, it was prepared to the 2010 election. In only two-thirds of the cases had disregard civic duty to the extent of allowing prisoners— returning officers checked the signatures on the ballot who have abandoned their civic duties—to have votes. papers. Those of us who have postal votes know that I think this will be a big problem area for the Government; you have to sign them, having previously registered I do not know where the problem arose. 629 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 630

In conclusion, it is in the interests of all parties to more people of their right to vote. Instead of 6 million ensure that there are no obvious areas of fraud. I or 7 million people being missing from the register, as believe that in spite of the checks and balances introduced there are now, under the original proposal we might by this Bill, there will be scope for elaborate and very well have ended up with 12 million or 15 million ingenious fraud through postal and proxy voting. people who are entitled to vote missing from the That should be checked. It was checked in the 19th century register, and therefore unlikely to be able to vote. With and the early 20th century; we have made it much an electorate that should be around 50 million, it looser. That is not in the interests of democracy or should be a source of great concern that so many fairness. millions of people would potentially miss out on the opportunity to vote for the lack of a proper process of 4.44 pm voter registration, such as is the basis of all democratic systems. Therefore, everyone should welcome the Lord Rennard: My Lords, I am very grateful to the Government’s recognition that there is an obligation noble Lord, Lord Baker, for some of his kind remarks to register to vote, and that this gives people the about me. However, in many decades of organising opportunity to take part in an election but does not elections, I was always sceptical about how far many require them to do so. candidates actually understood the details of the process. There is a significant problem with the existing A number of those remarks have not reduced my system, caused by the inconsistency of individual electoral scepticism about how far candidates have appreciated registration officers designing their own forms in every the detail of elections. I remember the period when, case. The degree of prominence given to the legal I think, the noble Lord was the chairman of the requirement has varied and the fact that you can, Conservative Party and the noble Baroness, Lady under the present system, be fined as much as £1,000 Thatcher, was Prime Minister. It was during that for not complying with the registration process is not period that the fine for not complying with the registration even mentioned on many of the forms. Best practice process was increased from £50 to £400. There was requires making the legal requirement and the potential great concern that people were not following their level of fine explicit and prominent on the household proper duty in being on the electoral register; they registration forms. I am very grateful to the Minister were possibly seen to be avoiding the poll tax—which for confirming in the debate in the name of the noble we all remember—and therefore the fine was £400. Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, on 12 July, that in There is sometimes a lack of consistency in the way future, that some Conservatives argue about the civic duty to “the application form that will be designed by the Electoral be on the electoral register and it being a legal requirement Commission must include a statement about the possibility of a that is, therefore, subject to a fine. fine and the size of that potential fine”.—[Official Report, 12/7/12; col. 1292.] In general, at almost every point in the recent I hope that he can also assure us that regulations will discussions on voter registration, I have asked Ministers ensure that the statement will be very prominent on to confirm that the aims of making changes to the those forms. process are at least as much about improving the completeness of the register as they are about improving It will be even more important that we adopt the its accuracy. However, the impact assessment of the best possible methodology for the individual registration Bill suggests that successful implementation of the forms that will follow the household inquiry ones. The move to individual electoral registration may mean Bill establishes the principle of individual forms but only around 85% completion, which is little better the crucial detail about implementation will be in the than the situation is now. In other words, successful secondary legislation. Therefore, in considering the implementation may be deemed by the Government to principles of the Bill, I ask the Minister to confirm be based on making the register more accurate but not some of the issues of principle behind the implementation necessarily more complete. The Government may be that are not featured in the Government’s implementation aiming rather modestly to do little more than halt the plan, which was published last Friday, and which I significant decline in registration levels that we have assume are still under consideration. seen over the past 10 years. Therefore, the aims of the It seems important that the civil penalty for non- Bill are not very ambitious in respect of maximising compliance with the individual registration form must registration. I should like them to be more ambitious not be seen as a one-off fee for exemption from and I believe that we need to know how successful the inclusion in the voting register. I agree with the Minister implementation of a new registration scheme has been that the level of fixed penalty should be akin to that before it can be declared fit for purpose for all elections deemed appropriate for parking offences. However, and boundary reviews after 2015. repeatedly and wilfully refusing to comply with the I welcome the changes to the Government’s approach process should attract repeat penalties. Subsequent that have been made since the publication of the compliance with the registration process should then White Paper in June last year. However, more detail on lead to the cancellation, at least, of further penalties the proposed changes is still required and more could and possibly the reduction, or even cancellation, of be done to improve, rather than weaken, the health of the original fixed penalty. our democracy. I particularly welcome the significant Perhaps the Minister will tell us more about exactly change in the approach to obligations to register from how this process will work, and how and when we will that initially outlined in the draft legislation. The know how it will work. He will understand that many initial proposals would undoubtedly, whether wittingly of us will want to understand these details properly or unwittingly, have had the effect of depriving millions before we approve the Bill. He should be aware that it 631 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 632

[LORD RENNARD] agencies. No more information should be obtained will simply not be good enough for someone to pay a from these sources than names and addresses of potentially fine and then avoid registration completely until the eligible voters who can then be invited to apply for the following year. A one-off fine must not become an registration process. If they do not exist, or they are annual fee for avoiding registration. not eligible, there will be no further consequences. But We would also like to hear more detail about how if they do exist and they are eligible, they should be we will avoid the fundamental problem that different subject to the same registration processes as everyone local authorities tend to have quite different levels of else. diligence when it comes to the registration process. The Bill team has advised me that nothing in the While we often argue that government processes are Bill prevents the use of private data in this way. I too centralised in this country in many respects, the believe that it could make a substantial difference to basis for the electoral administration systems that the success of implementation. But I would like to underpin our democracy across the country should be know from the Minister whether the Government are the same across the country. This is necessary both to engaging with the credit reference agencies to see how, ensure a democratic outcome in the elections for those with proper safeguards, we can ensure that people local authorities overseeing the process, and also for entitled to be on the electoral register, but absent from every set of elections based on using that electoral it, are invited to register without compromising any register. private or personal information. Quickly confirming existing registration details might be more effective for The electoral register is also important for jury this database or these databases than simply using service, for credit referencing and for the purchase of things such as the DWP database alone. For example, goods and services, the supply of which may be linked queries about duplicate registration might be more to presence on the electoral register. It should not be quickly and easily dealt with by the returning officers up to individual local authorities or electoral registration with access to these data. officers to decide how assiduous to be in trying to make the register complete and accurate. The best Much of the work to improve electoral registration practice of repeatedly writing to and visiting people should have been done decades ago. The fact that it who are known to be eligible to be on the register but was not done is not a reason for not doing it now. Our who have not registered should involve explaining existing processes are now known to be rather more carefully to people four different principles. flawed than we thought only a few years ago. Above all, we cannot be complacent about the outcome of First, they are not automatically registered. Many the process and we cannot let the Government simply people believe, quite wrongly, that they are automatically say that they have done their best by the time of the put on the voting register. Secondly, there are important next election. We reluctantly accept that many fewer reasons for registering, including access to credit and people will be able to vote in future. to buying goods and services, often over the internet. Thirdly, it is a legal requirement, subject to fines and The changes that will result from the shift to individual penalties, to comply with the process, as now. Fourthly, electoral registration may not affect any elections until registration is a very simple process. Explaining these after May 2015. But the local elections in England in principles in writing and through doorstep canvassing 2016, and those to the Scottish Parliament and the must be not just the best practice but should be a Welsh Assembly elections, should all be based on the universal requirement if our electoral register is to be new voting system. I am not sure how far the local in good order. authorities, the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly are aware of these changes or have been consulted The Minister has accepted in other debates that the about them. success of the data-matching pilots will be crucial to After 2016, all elections should be based on this the successful implementation of individual electoral new system. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord registration. There are certainly doubts about the Falconer of Thoroton, said earlier, the next parliamentary effectiveness of the first round of data-matching pilots. boundary review, as I am sure he well remembers from I hope that the Minister will confirm that all possible very lengthy debates, will be based on the register as it national government or local authority databases will is on 1 December 2015, using the new system with no be used to identify individuals eligible to be on the carryover from the old one. The Government accept register and that follow-up procedures will then try to that there are risks in making changes to this process. ensure that they are registered. These should include, We must therefore be satisfied that the processes have for example, databases such as those of the DWP, the been substantially successful before we can say that it DVLA and the Student Loans Company. Such data- would be safe to proceed to use the new system for mining exercises should go no further than providing elections or for boundary reviews. names and addresses of people believed to be eligible for the electoral register. But to make a sufficient success of the changes to the system to enable the 4.57 pm register to be fit for purpose, I believe that the Government Lord Trimble: My Lords, I shall start with a personal will have to go further. They will have to show that reminiscence. I went into the other place after a by-election they are really sincere about their stated aims of making in 1990. I managed to persuade my party to make me the electoral register accurate and complete. Home Affairs spokesman shortly afterwards with the I believe that they could do so by applying the same result that, after the general election in 2002, I found principles of data mining that they will use for publicly on my desk an invitation to go to the Home Office’s held records to those held by the credit reference regular post-election wash-up. I decided that I would 633 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 634 go, and when I went I found that I was the only elected Because of the continuing falls after the initial one, representative. The other parties were represented by there was concern over this situation and, starting in experts in the subject, which I certainly was not; on 2005, a number of measures were adopted to curtail that occasion, I was a mere practitioner. During one the decline. First, carry-forward was reinstated in 2005 discussion, there was a comment about a problem—I for that year and then permanently. Secondly, a system cannot remember whether it was made by a representative of rolling registration was introduced in place of the from the Conservative Party or the Labour Party. I requirement to register annually. Thirdly, provision could not quite understand the problem because reference was made for data matching and, as the Minister says, to it was curtailed. During the coffee break, I went to data mining, though I would have thought that was the Conservative and Labour representatives and inquired, included in data matching. Fourthly, provision was “What was that that you were referring to?”. They made for a canvass to be held in 2010 and every tenth said, “We were mentioning a significant problem that year thereafter although, significantly, provision was occurs in certain areas and affects all our parties. The also made for additional canvasses where the chief problem is that there is widespread fraudulent voting electoral officer requested it and the Secretary of State in those areas but no one is prepared to talk about it was satisfied that it was in the public interest. Fifthly, openly because it gets into areas of ethnic minorities”. the chief electoral officer was given access to the They went on to say that in these areas the register identities of 16 and 17 year-olds in schools and further is completely unreliable and that there is great difficulty education so that they could have their attention drawn in checking it because in some cases you are dealing to the desirability of registering. with large numbers of people whose surname is merely These measures have resulted in an increase in the based on the fact that they all came from a certain register. In 2006 it increased by roughly 10,000 to village on another continent. That was in 1992. The 1,157,000 but dropped, funnily enough, the next year noble Lord, Lord Baker, referred to cases that were to 1,075,000. In 2008 it went up to 1,125,000, an more than 10 years later. More than 20 years have increase of over 50,000, and increased by another passed since that comment was made in the margins of 16,000 in 2009 to 1,142,000. In 2010 it was 1,170,000 a meeting—it certainly was not made formally—but and finally, by 2011, it reached 1,202,000 and got the problem has not passed and it should be addressed. above the 2002 figure. It has increased in the latest I also recall that once, at an election in Portadown, register by a further 2,000. As the Minister said in his I came to a narrow, dilapidated, boarded-up house. opening speech, it is indicated that this is roughly 85% Those who were with me with a copy of the electoral complete. register drew my attention to the fact that there were In 2007 the Electoral Commission, commenting on six persons on the register for it. That is completely this experience, said that the fall in numbers reflected dwarfed by the figures that the noble Lord, Lord the removal of the carry-forward, which had the effect Baker, mentioned earlier, but it impressed me at the of removing inflationary factors from the register. time that someone thought they could put so many That lovely phrase “inflationary factors from the register” persons into such a small house. is a way of avoiding the use of the word fraud, but that There is clearly a problem. In Northern Ireland, is what it was. Significantly, the commission said that where photo ID is now required for voting, the quality it had the effect of “restoring integrity”to the registration of the register is the main source through which electoral process. That is hugely important, and I hope that that fraud can occur. Mention was made earlier of how integrity has been sustained. individual electoral registration was introduced in Northern Ireland and I want to refer a little to that I am slightly uncomfortable, though, because one experience. Individual electoral registration was introduced has heard rumours—I can say only “rumours” because in 2002; individuals registering to vote had to include they cannot be proved—about a certain political party personal details, including National Insurance and a in a certain constituency, when it has its post-election signature, and registration was done de novo with no get-together, awarding a special prize to the election carry-forward of names from the existing register, worker responsible for the most votes. I am not sure which had a 12-month life. what the mechanics of that are these days and I am not going to identify the constituency, but I am sure The immediate effect was a fall of over 10% in the that if this is happening, and given its discipline and number of voters. The figures are as follows: in 2002 organisation, the political party will have ensured that there were a total of 1,198,504 persons on the register the number of votes claimed by its election workers is in Northern Ireland. That dropped in 2003 to 1,072,425, accurate. a drop of just over 124,000. It dropped further in 2004 to 1,069,000, a drop of 3,000, and in 2005 there was a It will have been noticed that the Bill retains the drop of a further 23,000 to 1,047,601. There are a annual canvass, has provision for data matching and number of reasons for the decline and, in the absence introduces a civil penalty for failing to register when of any detailed research, which I do not think anyone required to do so. The carry-forward will continue has undertaken, those reasons are speculative. False until 2015, by which time the register should have been registrations were responsible for a significant number, thoroughly checked. One hopes that these measures though we cannot quantify it. There were also many may work in maintaining on the register persons entitled people who preferred to be off the register for a to be there but, if there is a reduction, we should not variety of reasons, such as not wanting to have their jump to the conclusion that it means that people name accessible, though it is not necessary to go into entitled to be on the register have been removed—one these. There would also, of course, have been those has to remember that it is possible that there is significant who could not be bothered. fraudulent registration. Not all the measures adopted 635 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 636

[LORD TRIMBLE] However, given that we had an effective Bill—now in Northern Ireland have been paralleled here, but the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009, which most of them have. However, we may want to consider received cross-party support at that time—I find it during the passage of the Bill whether further measures puzzling why it was necessary to change in the coalition similar to those adopted in Northern Ireland should agreement what had already been agreed. It was a Bill be introduced. that covered both the elimination of fraud and safeguards Finally, I wish to mention another matter, although on registration. I cannot understand why we just have I will not be in complete agreement with party colleagues. not followed that Bill through. It could have been well A welcome side effect of the extension of the electoral on its way to doing its work now. timetable occurred in the Northern Ireland Assembly Rather, we have a new Bill speeding up the process—a elections in 2011 when the early dispatch of poll cards Bill that is flawed in many ways and which is causing resulted in more than 17,000 changes to the register, of grave concern among many practitioners. I appreciate which some 11,500 were new registrations. The extension that adjustments have been made to the original proposal to the electoral timetable may produce more new such as withdrawing the chance of an opt-out for registrations, and they would indeed be welcome. individuals who did not wish to register—I find it absolutely unbelievable that could even be suggested—the 5.07 pm agreeing of the annual canvass in 2014, reversing the Government’s original position, and retaining non- Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, the registration or providing false information as an offence. Minister told us that the Bill’s purpose was to create a In spite of those welcome changes, they do not provide system designed to reduce electoral fraud and increase the assurances and safeguards necessary to overcome the integrity of the register. Clearly, individual registration those concerns. rather than household registration, by removing intermediaries, should go quite a long way to achieving This brings me to my first concern about this Bill: the aim of reducing fraud. That is crucial. the proposal to amend the current Section 9A(1) of the RPA 1983—as outlined in paragraph 6(2) of However, equally important should be the aim to Schedule 4 of the Bill. Currently, Section 9A(1) requires increase the level of electoral registration and thereby an ERO to take, ensure that the maximum number of eligible people “all steps that are necessary for the purpose of complying with his are entitled to vote. That aim was not evident from the duty to maintain the register under section 9”. Minister’s words in the Commons, when he said: This Bill proposes to amend this to include the words, “I sincerely hope that it will be no lower than the population that is registered today”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/5/12; “so far as is reasonably practicable”. col. 1178.] However, as the Minister said, this duty is extremely There was no specific reference to the 6 million or important to ensure that the EROs do all that is 7 million people currently not on the register. Talking necessary to improve the accuracy and completeness in percentages actually undermines the reality, because of the register, including conducting house-to-house we are talking about some 6 million to 8 million inquiries where other steps have not yielded the necessary people who do not have the right to vote. I do not information. We may be told that the change of wording really care about the percentage. I am much more is intended only as a technical amendment. Clearly it interested in talking about people, and they are missing is not—not only is the proposed amendment confusing from the register. Nor have we heard how the Bill will but it has the potential to dilute the effect of the ensure a vast reduction in that number while providing existing duty. Surely there is a good reason not to safeguard mechanisms to ensure that the change to IR reduce the duty at this time, when the accuracy and does not result in eligible electors falling off the register. the completeness of the register is so critical. With respect to the Minister, I have to say that I am This brings me to the crucial canvasses being conducted not convinced. in 2014—canvasses that also, of course, have to be Having such a large gap in the electoral role has to complete and accurate. The Minister mentioned that be completely unacceptable. Surely the goal in any there was going to be a wide advertising campaign. democracy must be to achieve a complete and accurate How is that campaign going to be conducted? I am register. I completely agreed with the noble Lord, pleased to hear that the campaign will not be aimed Lord Rennard, when he talked about the completeness just at the general public but will use different approaches of the register—not only its accuracy—and its consistency to different communities, be they home movers, the across the country. I should say that over many years BME community or young people. I would like to the noble Lord and I have worked together as electoral hear much more about how much money is going be apparatchiks. I am glad that we are on the same put into that campaign, what the process will be, and wavelength. However, I really want to concentrate on who will be conducting the campaign and be responsible registration. for it, whether it be the Electoral Commission or not. Before going further, I must declare in an interest as I need to also ask, appreciating how important chair of the HS Chapman Society—a society made up canvasses are, whether it is the right time for the of representatives from the main political parties, Minister to have the power to cancel annual canvasses. ex-apparatchiks like me, party lawyers, the Electoral I know that the noble Lord said that it would not Commission, and electoral registration officers. We happen with this Minister, but it could give the ability aim to ensure that registration and elections are run to other Ministers to cancel those campaigns. I think effectively and are fraud-free, and we genuinely believe that is what he said. He will tell me if I have got that that individual registration is a key component to wrong. I cannot honestly see why there is any need to achieving those aims. put that into this Bill, particularly as it is estimated 637 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 638 that the accuracy of the register deteriorates by 1% Government, could be debarred from voting because following the canvass. I fail to understand, without the they are unable to get to the poll because of illness or annual canvass, how that shortfall will be dealt with. disability. Organisations such as Scope, Mind, Age Clearly, all that raises the question of funding for UK, the RNIB and Sense believe that the IER presents this job to be done effectively, as the financial impact a real opportunity to improve the electoral processes assessment states that it will require significant investment, for elderly and disabled people, so it would be ironic if not least as a substantial part of the implementation they were penalised in this way. To debar a single will depend on the ERO having the right tools in place eligible voter from voting is wrong and I question the to be able to do the job, whether it is electoral software legality of the Government’s position. or IT solutions. This means that we must consider how I will say a brief word about fines for non-registration, much money it will cost. The Minister in the other which have always been in place, as has been said. I am place stated that £108 million would be provided for confused about the relationship with a parking fine, the transition to IER. I do know what that includes. and about how one will work within a spectrum. I Will it buy the sort of equipment that EROs will need? would have thought that what was needed was a How has the figure been identified and what will the national fine that would be imposed across the country. money be spent on? It also means that there must be Perhaps it will be explained that that is the case, but I timely—almost immediate—provision of funds for am confused about what is meant by “spectrum”. It the initial planning, overall design, tendering and would also be useful to know whether there are any implementation. I would like more detail about how ideas about what the civil penalty will be in that and when the £108 million will be spent. system, because that will affect its effectiveness. I appreciate that the funding allocated will be paid In conclusion, I want to say a word about the 2015 under Section 31 of the Act, which covers direct parliamentary boundary changes. As others have grants. That means it will not be ring-fenced. There is mentioned, they will be based on the new electoral therefore no guarantee that it will be used for the register at the end of the transitional period on purposes for which it was allocated. From experience, 1 December 2015 when, under this Bill, the size of the money given in this way often finds its way into other electorate could be temporarily diminished. Under local government expenditure, not least at a time when the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies local authorities are facing cuts. What guarantees will Act 2011, if there is a decline in the number of electors there be that the money will be spent for the purposes in certain constituencies, for whatever reason, the for which it has been allocated? The Minister’s reply parliamentary boundaries must be redrawn. This will on this point in the Commons was not in any way apply at a time when the electoral register will be at its adequate. He indicated that the Government would most variable because of the flaws in this Bill, and consult about the mechanism, and that local authorities many invisible citizens will not be accounted for. It with specific needs would bid for extra resources. will cause a great deal of concern in certain parts of There was no detail of what the mechanism or the the country that will be affected more than others. specific needs would be, what criteria would be used Therefore, while I support the principle of this Bill—I and what would happen if the bids failed and the local did when the Labour Government introduced the authority were left with a funding shortfall. question of individual registration—I hope that it will Another query relates to data matching, which has be amended in Committee so that it not only eliminates already been mentioned. Of course it can be useful fraud but diminishes the possibility of any reduction and helpful against any decline in registration during in the register and provides a substantial increase in the introduction of individual registration. While 22 pilot the number of people on the register. schemes have taken place, they have not yet been It might also be useful to consider amendments to evaluated. However, in spite of the electoral registration achieve what might be called a registration revolution. officers who were involved in the schemes indicating I appreciate that we are now registering online but that using government databases to identify new electors there are other ways in which the registration process had had limited effectiveness, the Government are still could happen. We need to examine new opportunities steaming ahead with the Bill. Following completion of to make registration easier, such as registration forms, the Bill, what will be the process for rectifying flaws perhaps at government offices or in the Post Office. I when the pilots are eventually evaluated in 2014 and disagree firmly with the Minister about registering on changes have to be made? election day. If voters have personal identifiers and One of the most disturbing things in the Bill relates evidence of who they are, fraud is prevented by registering to postal and proxy votes. It is right that during the on the day. A growing number of countries register on transition phase people without a postal or proxy vote the day. In the early 1990s, I worked a great deal in the who fail to register under IER will be carried forward new democracies in eastern Europe. We established to the 2015 register, thereby enabling them to vote in that those people who had not been able to register the 2015 general election. However, it is absolutely not previously would always be able to register on the day. right that those with a postal or proxy vote will have to However we deal with this Bill in Committee, I hope register under the new system in 2014 or forfeit their that, in the end, we are able to achieve an increase in absentee vote—they will have to vote in person or not the number of people who are entitled to vote. at all. The speed of introduction of the process will deprive EROs of the necessary time to verify all 5.22 pm applications. This will create a discriminatory situation, Baroness O’Loan: My Lords, I wish to bring three particularly against the elderly and the disabled who, brief points to the attention of your Lordships’ House. through no fault of their own but because of the I welcome the attempts in the Bill to reduce electoral 639 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 640

[BARONESS O’LOAN] The reality is that the range of documents which fraud by speeding up the implementation of individual may be used to confer eligibility to register is limited, voter registration, which has clearly been very effective but there will undoubtedly be circumstances in which in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, people who should be entitled to register will not have has referred extensively to the figures. When individual the normal documents. Not everybody has a passport voter registration was introduced in Northern Ireland or a driving licence; not everybody even has a birth in 2006, there was a 20% reduction in the number of certificate. Youcan get birth certificates from Somerset those registered to vote. That is a significant number House, but that does not actually prove that someone in anyone’s terms. is the person named on the birth certificate. Questions The first matter I wish to consider in detail is the have already been asked as to whether the Government power contained in Clause 2(2) of the Bill, which are satisfied that the current data collections in relation would insert a new paragraph into Schedule 2 to the to material held about people’s identity are accurate. Representation of the People Act 1983. This relates to What of the validity of information which may be Section 53 of that Act. Those provisions are unexceptional. supplied pursuant to the Bill by a person of any kind They permit the Secretary of State or the Lord President from whom the electoral registration officer may seek of the Council to make regulations, subject to the information? affirmative procedure, about the registration of voters The matter is complicated by the fact that if you are and arrangements for postal and proxy voting. However, a citizen of one of some 105 European Union or the new provisions pursuant to Clause 2(2) will give Commonwealth countries, British Overseas Territories power to the Secretary of State by determination, not or British Crown dependencies and you are resident in by affirmative resolution or regulation as is the pattern the United Kingdom, you are eligible to register to elsewhere in the Bill, to require that a person seeking vote. That means that the nature of the documentation registration as a voter must provide specific evidence could in some circumstances be very different from of identity to prove that he or she is the person named that which might be required of a UK citizen. This is in the application and to enable the registration officer of fundamental importance to our democracy and I to determine whether that person is entitled to be would suggest that, like all the other provisions in the registered. There is a new sub-paragraph, to which Bill, there should be a proper arrangement for this process. some reference has been made, which states the kind There has been considerable discussion of the issue of evidence required, including a person’s date of of proxy and postal votes and the carry-forward birth and national insurance number. On the face of arrangements in the Bill. I endorse much of what has it, that sounds quite normal and what one might been said about the importance of cleaning up proxy expect of legislation. However, this provision goes to and postal votes, but I want to emphasise the fact that, the heart of the exercise of the right to vote. It removes for those with disabilities and for the vulnerable, it will from any formal parliamentary oversight or challenge be necessary to make further carry-forward arrangements. the nature of the evidence ultimately required to be Otherwise, they will be deprived of their right to vote. permitted to vote. It is left to the Secretary of State to There is another issue that I would like to raise. A decide by determination. The question here must be: survey undertaken at the last general election by the why not by regulation? organisation Scope called “Polls Apart” found that There is already confusion about which documents there are approximately 15,000 potential disabled voters permit one to be able to register as a voter. Searching per constituency, with 67% of polling stations representing the web does not always reveal a clear and coherent one or more access barriers for disabled people. Five statement in answer to the question. Moreover, there charities, Mencap, the RNIB, Age UK, Scope and are many in our society who do not have access to the Sense, have suggested that the Bill presents a real web and thus to the information that may be available. opportunity to improve the electoral process for disabled I think of the elderly, those with a disability, those people, particularly by recording information about from the ethnic minorities with language difficulties, electoral access needs at the point of registration. and even the very young voter. The explanation given Recording disabled and older voters’ access needs at to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform the point of registration could be used to improve the Committee, of which I am a member, of why the accessibility of the current system during the transition Secretary of State should be allowed to decide by to IER and over the longer term. I am also informed determination what evidence should be required was that this recommendation is supported by the Electoral that: Commission. Such information could inform plans for the creation and renovation of polling stations. “The question of what information or documents have sufficient evidential value to be relied upon is a technical one, and one A provision to include a pilot scheme for recording which changes over time as the technology used by various access needs was presented in another place during the entities changes ... this information may need to be changed at passage of the Bill. At that point, the Government did short notice”. not commit to ensuring that a pilot would take place. That is the justification for removing from any form of This Bill undoubtedly represents an opportunity which parliamentary scrutiny that part of the process which should not be missed to make provision for a pilot that will enable intending voters to become registered. We would provide the information at the time of registration all know that it is possible for primary legislation to be about the access needs of the applicant. It would be a made in the course of a day, let alone amending simple amendment that would make a significant regulations. In its sixth report, the Delegated Powers contribution towards giving the disabled and the vulnerable and Regulatory Reform Committee stated that the the access necessary to exercise their democratic right arrangements set out in the Bill are inappropriate. to vote. 641 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 642

Finally, I will speak briefly about the imposition of do not vote more than once. Given that the Bill is civil sanctions by electoral registration officers. I can designed to enhance the integrity of the register, it is see no purpose in the imposition of civil sanctions for incumbent on the Government to explain what they failure to provide information to register. They do not propose in place of the provisions for an online record go to the purpose of the Bill, which is to prevent of electors. I do not think that Clause 21, by itself, is electoral fraud. There is a risk that, like so many other sufficient. Therefore, I ask the Minister, what is the provisions where a low penalty is introduced by the Government’s alternative? What plans do they have to Government, it will simply be regarded as a further take to prevent fraud in this respect? The introduction money-raising exercise. I do not mean to be offensive, of individual electoral registration is necessary for but we have had an enormous number of additional that purpose, but it is not sufficient. fines and penalties recently. They will be costly to My other concerns cover what is not in the Bill. administer. There is no provision for a scrutiny process— There are two omissions. First, the Bill does not there is a review process but not a scrutiny process. I address the 15-year rule for those British nationals think the fact that discretion is given to the electoral who live overseas. In the last Parliament, I raised the registration officers as to whether to fine or not may issue of British nationals working for international well lead to unfairness. There being no legal duty to organisations. Here my concern is more general. It is vote, why should there be a legal duty rather than a an issue that was raised in the other place during the moral compulsion to register and to provide the passage of the Bill by Geoffrey Clifton-Brown. As he information to vote? Why should that legal duty be noted, although there are 4.4 million British citizens accompanied by a penalty if one does not comply? of voting age living abroad, only just over 23,000 are What is required is further education about democracy registered as overseas voters. In response the Minister, itself and about the level of prosecutions for failure to David Heath, said that the Government would give provide information. In Northern Ireland, since 2006, the issue “serious consideration”. I appreciate the there has been one prosecution for failure to provide reasons for not wishing to rush to judgement. There information, and the penalty imposed by the magistrate are practical issues as well as the issue of principle in the court was a fine of one penny. raised by the Minister—the two come together in terms of ensuring the integrity of the ballot. However, 5.31 pm there is a countervailing principle in respect of the Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, there is a problem rights of those who, while they may live abroad, retain of trust in the process of registering and voting. I British citizenship. It will be helpful if my noble friend believe we should privilege the integrity of the ballot gives some indication of the Government’s thinking in over convenience. We have leaned a little too far in the light of the discussions in the other place. recent years towards convenience. I therefore welcome The other omission is a provision dealing with the the Bill—it is a step in the right direction. However, I edited electoral register. This is something that I have very much agree with my noble friend Lord Rennard raised on a number of occasions. An edited register is that we should aim for a full as well as an accurate produced as a by-product of citizens fulfilling a statutory register. They should be seen as compatible goals. We obligation. There is the option not to be included in need to ensure that the resources are made available to the edited version, but it is an opt-out process and one deliver on those goals; it is a question of resources as exercised at the moment by the head of the household. well as rules. The move to IER will at least ensure that individuals I had intended to devote the first part of my speech are exercising their right to opt out. None the less, the to discussing individual electoral registration, but most Political and Constitutional Reform Committee of the of the points I wanted to make have already been House of Commons as well as the Electoral Commission made. I will therefore discard that part of the speech and the Association of Electoral Administrators have and not repeat what has already been said. Instead, argued that the edited register should be abolished. A I will focus on concerns not yet expressed by others. I survey by the Local Government Association and the have a concern about one particular provision of the AEA found that almost 90% of electoral officers Bill and then I wish to address what I see as two surveyed believed that the practice of selling the register omissions—both were touched on in debate in the discouraged people from registering to vote. other place. The first concern relates to Clause 21, repealing the There are thus significant problems arising from provisions of the Electoral Administration Act 2006 the generation and publication of an edited register. I for the creation of a, am familiar with the arguments for its retention. The magazine Parliamentary Brief has regularly rehearsed “co-ordinated on-line record of electors”. them, albeit ignoring the fundamental objection of I recall the debates we had when the 2006 Bill was in principle adumbrated by the Political and Constitutional Committee. The Government do not wish to pursue Reform Committee, and one that I have previously having such a database because, as the Minister, Mark advanced. The arguments for the edited version were Harper, said last year in a Written Ministerial Statement, also repeated at Second Reading of the Bill in the establishing such a system would not be, other place by Dan Rogerson. “proportionate, cost-effective or consistent with the Government’s policy on databases and reducing the number of non-departmental The Government are seized of the issue and have public bodies”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/7/11; col. 70WS.] undertaken a consultation on the future of the register. I understand all that. It may be an expensive way of In response to the report of the Constitutional and getting rid of redundant entries as well as ensuring Political Reform Committee, they said the arguments that people who are registered at more than one address were “finely balanced”. During the Committee stage 643 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 644

[LORD NORTON OF LOUTH] as we have heard, there were special circumstances of the Bill in the Commons, Mark Harper reiterated there. The independent report on that experience by the point in saying that the Government had decided the Electoral Commission concluded that, while its to retain the register. That decision is one that we need findings about the impact on registration related directly to explore in some detail. There is the argument of to Northern Ireland, principle. If the edited register is to be retained, then “they are not unique and reflect the wider picture across the UK. we need to address a number of changes that may be They present a major challenge to all those concerned with necessary. At present, the edited register can be sold to widening participation in electoral and democratic processes”. anyone. Direct marketing companies—generators of In evidence to the Political and Constitutional Reform junk mail—are on a par with charities and other Select Committee of the House of Commons last bodies pursuing functions that may be as meritorious year, Jenny Watson, the chair of the Electoral Commission, as those of some of the bodies that are entitled to upon whom the Minister relied in his opening speech, copies of the full register. said it was possible that, Inclusion in the edited version is automatic unless “the register could go from around a 90% completeness that we one makes the conscious decision to opt out. The currently have”— information provided to electors as to the nature of actually it turned out to be a bit less than that— the register and their right to opt out is not as clear as “to around, say, a 60% completeness”. it could be—I gather practice varies. If the edited register is to be retained, then these are all points that There is already a serious problem with the electoral need to be addressed. Again, it would be helpful if my register in the United Kingdom. As we have heard, the noble friend could indicate the Government’s thinking. latest estimate suggests that at least 6 million people eligible to vote were not registered to do so in December I welcome the Bill. As we have heard, the principle 2010. The problem is all the worse because those of IER is compelling, but it is essential that its eligible voters who are not on the register are implementation is sound. We cannot afford to skimp disproportionately concentrated in particular groups: in ensuring that a fundamental civil right is delivered. young people and students, people with learning disabilities, people with disabilities generally, those 5.39 pm living in areas of high social deprivation, and ethnic minorities. The introduction of individual registration Lord Wills: My Lords, as we have heard from risks making a bad situation significantly worse, which almost every speaker so far, there is widespread support is why its introduction was delayed for so long. The for the objective of the Bill, but there is also profound improvements it is likely to bring to the accuracy of unease about the way the Government are going about the register by helping to ensure that all those on the it. The Bill aims to bring in individual electoral registration register should be on it are balanced by the deterioration which, as the Minister and others have described, has in accuracy it is likely to bring about as increasing significant advantages over the current system of numbers of eligible voters do not register. household registration. That is why the previous Government brought in legislation, for which I was As I have said, the previous Government sought to the responsible Minister, which introduced individual address this problem by linking the implementation electoral registration. However, unlike this Bill, that of individual registration to the achievement of a legislation secured cross-party support. That is because, comprehensive and accurate register by 2015. This unlike this Bill, it was designed to have no partisan timetable allowed for a phased introduction of the effect in the way it was delivered. new system but we showed our commitment to meeting This Government have abandoned that careful cross- it by giving the Electoral Commission the power to party approach; instead, this Bill seeks to rewire our oversee the process and the obligation to report annually electoral arrangements in a way that is likely to have a to Parliament on its progress in achieving the objective, partisan impact and damage our democracy. This may and substantial new powers to help it do so. This seem strong language to apply to what may appear to approach has now been junked by the Government, be a narrow and technical Bill, but while electoral who want to bring in individual registration whatever registration is often a highly technical issue, it is always the consequences for the coverage of the register. an important one. The struggle for the right to vote I know that the Government, in good faith, are defines the history of our democracy and electoral taking measures to increase registration and they are registration makes that right a reality. all welcome. But they are essentially a continuation of As my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer said the same measures the previous Government brought in his opening speech, the key question that has to be in and, as I keep telling Ministers in this Government, addressed when scrutinising this Bill is: why did this when I was the Minister responsible for bringing in Government abandon the previous Government’s these measures I hoped that they would halt and approach of bringing in individual electoral registration reverse the likely decline in registration but I could not by linking it to the achievement of a comprehensive guarantee they would do so. That is why we took the and accurate electoral register? That is the key question approach we did. As I have said before, I could see no because all the evidence and expert opinion suggests justification in advancing towards one public policy that for all its merits, the introduction of individual objective at the expense of another when it was perfectly registration carries with it the severe risk that significant possible to advance towards both at the same time. numbers of people eligible to vote will not register and In response to questioning in a debate in your so will be unable to vote. This was the case in Northern Lordships’ House on I2 July, the Minister, the noble Ireland when it moved to this new system, although, Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, admitted that he 645 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 646 could not guarantee that this Bill would not cause the registration rates are lower among particular demographic numbers on the electoral register to go down but he groups and in particular parts of the country. Will the appeared to justify this by saying that the numbers Minister set out the methodology through which the have been falling under the present system of household Government reached their assessment of the impact registration. I hope that, on reflection, he is not seriously of this legislation on levels of registration? Can he say seeking to argue that because a problem already exists, if the Government made any assessment of the impact it is acceptable to make it even worse. on those groups and those parts of the country in The impact assessment of this Bill carried out by which registration is disproportionately low under the the Cabinet Office is a very interesting document. It current system? If so, what was that assessment? admits that in the long run the register is expected to Why are the Government risking such damage to remain 85% complete. In other words, all the efforts the electoral register? They have suggested—in the the Government are making to increase registration, Explanatory Notes, for example, and we have heard it which are considerable, will be counteracted by the again today from the Minister—that the aim of this damage to registration levels caused by the Government’s Bill is to, approach to bringing in individual registration. That “reduce electoral fraud by speeding up the implementation of figure of completeness is more or less where we are individual voter registration”. today. Their argument appears to be that the problem of The Government seem content to accept that, by electoral fraud is so pressing that tackling it is such a their own estimates, some 6 million eligible voters will priority that the Government must abandon the previous remain off the electoral register—even though the Government’s timetable and all its protections for Minister has told us today that the Government place levels of registration. equal emphasis on the completeness and the accuracy No one can quarrel with any measure that reduces of the register. This is in contrast to the previous electoral fraud, and I agree with the Government that Government’s approach, where there were continuing individual registration can play a part in doing so; that incentives to improve registration rates by tying them was one of the main reasons the previous Government to the delivery of individual registration—a goal on legislated for it. However, this argument needs to be which the whole of Parliament, I think, can agree. kept in perspective. There is no evidence—none—that There was also provision for annual progress reports electoral fraud is widespread or systemic. That is what to Parliament by the Electoral Commission, giving the independent bodies tasked with safeguarding the Parliament the opportunity every year to introduce integrity of our electoral system have found over and new measures should they be needed. All that was again in their study of all the elections that have been agreed by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats in conducted in this country over the past 10 years and opposition; all that has been junked by them now they more. To quote from just one analysis carried out by are in government. the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Electoral My concerns are increased by the silence of the Commission into the 2010 elections, they found, impact assessment on two important issues that could “no evidence of widespread systematic attempts to undermine or make electoral registration even more worryingly interfere with the May 2010 elections through electoral fraud”. incomplete. First, it does not say what levels of investment With great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, who it assumes will be made by local authorities in registration. seemed to be making a slightly different point, they This Bill gives a lot of powers—we have heard a lot went on to say about those elections, about data-matching—but it does not say how much “we are not aware of any case reported to the police that affected local authorities are actually going to invest in the the outcome of the election to which it related nor of any election process of registration. Your Lordships will be aware that has had to be re-run as a result of electoral malpractice”. that the money allocated by central government to There is never any justification for any complacency local authorities for electoral registration is not ring-fenced. about even a single instance of electoral malpractice. I It is therefore likely that, at a time when local authorities agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, are subject to intense pressure on their budgets, some— and others have said. However, the evidence does not possibly many—of them might be tempted to spend suggest that electoral malpractice justifies the risk that those funds not on electoral registration but on other the Government are running with the register. The hard-pressed services. Rowntree Reform Trust report of 2008 concluded: Can the Minister say whether, in making projections “It is unlikely that there has been a significant increase in about levels of registration, the Government have electoral malpractice since the introduction of postal voting on assumed that every penny of the money allocated for demand in 2000”. electoral registration will be spent to that end by every It went on to say that what malpractice there was, local authority? If they have not assumed that, what “related to a tiny proportion of all elections contested”. assumptions have they made about levels of local Nor will individual registration address all the cases authority spending on registration? Will the Minister of malpractice. ACPO and the Electoral Commission also share with your Lordships the calculations the have concluded that the nature of recorded electoral Government have made about the impact on levels of malpractice tends to change as efforts are successful in registration if local authorities do not spend the funds tackling previous forms of it. Indeed, the Bill suggests allocated to them for that purpose to that end? the Government are actually not that worried about Secondly, the impact assessment is silent on the electoral fraud; they could have included measures to differential impact of this change on the system of tackle it but they have not done so. They have not registration. As I have said, under the current system, included, for example, anything to implement a suggestion 647 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 648

[LORD WILLS] Lord Wills: I am extremely grateful to the noble by ACPO and the Electoral Commission that to Baroness for her guidance. I am actually about to strengthen the security of the electoral process the come to the end. However, I would point out tactfully, Government might require proof of voters’ identities although I am not intending to take advantage of this, at a polling station. There are strong arguments against that the notes issued by the Government Whips Office it, but there is no consideration of it in this Bill suggests that the House is due to rise at 10 pm, so I and they have not brought anything forward to deal suspect that there is a little time left for me to conclude. with it. If the Government were really so concerned about electoral fraud, the Bill would include further measures, Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, that was for example, to tackle directly personation, which still perhaps taking account of the elasticity of the previous exists from time to time, and it would carry forward business, on which the House was commendably succinct. measures to tackle postal vote fraud. I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Baker, on the advantages of 100% verification of postal vote ballots; he is Lord Wills: I assure the House that I will not tire it absolutely right about that. At the moment electoral any further. However, as I spent a great deal of my life returning officers verify a small percentage of them, on this issue—not altogether of my own volition—when but 100% verification would help to tackle what postal I was a Minister, I had hoped that I would be able to vote fraud exists. There is nothing about that in the contribute something to the debates as we went forward. Bill; there could be, but it is costly. If the Government I hope that I may be allowed a little more latitude— were as worried, as the noble Lord, Lord Baker, seems another two or three minutes, if that is acceptable. I to be, they would make provision for it, but they have see that I am being allowed to continue for the time not. being until I get a signal from my own Whips. Looking again at the impact assessment, we can see I shall deal with the question of financial fraud that the Government are not altogether convinced because it is put forward as an important justification about their own case. It suggests that the “problem for the Bill in the impact assessment. No one has under consideration” is the, mentioned it so far, but the Government estimate that “widely held view that the current system for registration is there could be a reduction in such fraud of £17.5 million vulnerable to fraud and a public perception that this allows by 2030. When we look at the arguments for this, electoral fraud to occur”. though, we see that that figure is reached only if the In other words, the problem is not necessarily something amount of fraud detected and prevented is a linear that exists in fact but simply the perception that it function of the electoral register—but then it is admitted might do so. Of course we need to be worried about that no such assumption can be made. The impact perceptions—any doubts about the integrity of the assessment states: electoral process are very important—so how widespread “This figures should be considered to be indicative”— is that perception? I think the most recent evidence we a slippery word— have is from the tracker survey carried out by the “only however because the mathematical relationship between Electoral Commission in 2011. That survey found that the accuracy of the electoral register and fraud is imperfectly 36% thought that electoral fraud was a big or a very understood”. big problem but 50% thought that it was not a big In other words, it might be a strong argument for this problem or not a problem at all, so only a minority are Bill but it might be no such argument at all. We really worried about it. That becomes even more relevant should not be legislating on such a flimsy evidence when we look at the sample where those who said that base, and the flimsiness of the case for this legislation they knew a lot about the problem amounted to a total is matched by the damage that it is going to do to the of 6%. This hardly seems like a secure evidence base electoral register. on which to bring legislation before Parliament. The What are the consequences of this? Clearly it damages Government seem to recognise this because they bring our democracy when millions are excluded from the forward financial fraud as another reason for this electoral register. Most agree that eligible voters who legislation. do not register are more likely to vote Labour when they do vote. The Government recognise this problem by allowing a carryover from the household system of Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am registration for the general election in 2015. Significantly, grateful to the noble Lord and, as always, I hesitate to though, as we have heard, they have not allowed for interrupt in debates, but it may be helpful to all noble such a carryover for the boundary review that is also Lords taking part if I remind them gently that the going to take place in 2015. What are the consequences Companion says, in chapter 4.44: of that likely to be? As I have previously argued, “In debates where there are no formal time limits”— Labour constituencies are likely to see disproportionate and this debate is not time limited— declines in those on the register because those less likely to register are disproportionately concentrated “members opening or winding up, from either side, are expected in such constituencies. Because of the very tight numerical to keep within 20 minutes”— limits on constituency size imposed by the Parliamentary which, indeed, they have done. It continues: Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011, that is “Other speakers are expected to keep within 15 minutes”. likely to mean fewer Labour seats. Furthermore, because I am sure that the noble Lord is coming to the end of of the way that Labour constituencies are often his speech. surrounded by strongly Conservative constituencies, 649 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 650 that is likely to mean that more Labour safe seats will should avoid the substantial precipice that we encountered become marginal and more marginal Labour seats will and therefore the reduction, if there is one, should be become Conservative ones. much less than that we experienced in 2002 to 2003. I have asked your Lordships before, and I ask you I will give just one example. Registration in the again today, to consider the impact on our democracy Botanic ward in the city of Belfast, the ward immediately if it turns out that the outcome of a general election surrounding the university, dropped from something has been determined by the fact that millions of eligible in the region of 3,800 to 2,200. That was the most voters could not vote because they were not registered notorious example where a substantial drop took place to do so and this was the result of a government but, as noble Lords can imagine, that was because policy, deliberately pursued despite all the evidence there were houses in multiple occupation and students that it would have precisely this consequence. As it who came up from the country and preferred to be stands, this Bill is noxious to democracy, and this is registered at home rather than at the university—there compounded by the broad order-making powers that was some reason to believe that some were registered Ministers wish to give themselves to alter the system at both, although that is not an offence unless people further in future. vote at two locations in the one election. That was an However, despite all that, I do not think that the extreme example but there was systematic evidence to Bill is beyond redemption. A number of amendments suggest that the process reduced the number of people could rid it of its partisan elements while still securing on the register. To what extent that reduced the accuracy its overriding objective. I conclude my remarks with a of the register, which is of course a different thing, is plea to all those Peers who have an understandable another matter. However, having the rollover should reluctance to amend too vigorously legislation that avoid the worst excesses of a reduction. affects elections to the other place. I accept what the There are other ways in which a reduction can be noble Lord, Lord Baker, said about our slight remove offset, particularly among those groups less likely to and therefore our greater objectivity in these matters, vote, who, by and large, are the same wherever you are but I also understand that many Peers do not wish to throughout the country—we all accept that. I received, interfere in electoral matters. I ask any Peers who feel as I am sure a number of other noble Lords did, like that to recall that your Lordships’ House has representation from Callcredit and other organisations, historically seen the protection of our country’s which made the point that their services were providing constitutional arrangements— a positive national contribution and a resource. However, such organisations are one of the principal reasons Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, the noble why people do not want to be registered. People do Lord is now in the 21st minute. The Companion says not want to be chased for credit; they perhaps owe that even if the speech is of great significance to the money and feel they will be pestered for information, nation that it should not continue beyond that period. cold-calling, sales and other purposes. That can have a It is a matter for the Minister to decide, of course, negative effect on people’s wish to be registered to whether he responds to points put by the noble Lord. vote. Given the general nature of this debate, I am sure that The other issues that I have grave concerns about he would wish to do so. The Companion is clear and is have been mentioned already, including the postal there, for fairness, to all Peers because we are all voting system in Great Britain. I feel that the way it is treated equally. set up here verges on the reckless. We tried that system once, I believe in the 1970s, where you had a purely 6pm on-demand requirement for postal votes. It is not hard Lord Empey: My Lords, during his opening remarks, to imagine that people would knock on the door and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, say, “Missus, I wouldn’t mind to have your wee form said that perhaps those of us in Northern Ireland who please”. This sort of thing happened and we disposed had experienced this system, or a variation of it, for of that process, so that now you have to have a specific the past 10 years might be in the position to give some reason for not voting in person and for using a postal indication to the House as to how it had gone. By my vote. It is not terribly restrictive—you can have it for calculations, something in the region of nine elections illness, for being on holiday and for work purposes. have now taken place under the individual registration Nevertheless, it has to be witnessed and signed, and it system. That includes local, Assembly, European and is pursued, I can assure noble Lords, by the electoral national elections. I think that the noble and learned authorities. A completely open-ended thing—which I Lord would agree that, by any standard, it is a reasonable think had the right motivation at the time, as the noble test bed for what is likely to happen. Lord, Lord Baker, said—is today highly open to abuse, Along with the noble Lord, Lord Wills, I do not following some of the examples we have heard. I believe that the circumstances in Northern Ireland are strongly support changes to that proposal. so unique or different that lessons cannot be drawn as I also do not understand the reticence about having to the likely outcome. I broadly support the principle identification for individuals. We introduced a thing of individual registration, although, as many noble called the electoral identity card, which any individual Lords have said, there are a wide variety of detailed elector can have access to if they do not possess a points that will be crucial when determining how passport, driving licence, Senior Smartpass or some effective the new legislation will be. As the noble Lord, other photographic form of identification. You can Lord Trimble, said, initially there was a substantial get it in the electoral office, but the Electoral Commission drop in the number of people registered to vote. By at home took out a mobile unit and brought it to agreeing to the rollover provision initially, the Government schools and housing estates, because many people 651 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 652

[LORD EMPEY] forward secondary legislation which will deal with a discovered they were not able to vote because they did lot of the detail. In those circumstances, I hope we can not have another form of photographic identification. refine what is in the Bill with the objective of making it If you push at it and pursue it, there are ways in which sound and so that we have confidence in it, but at the you can actually improve the registration. The commission same time having measures in it to ensure as much has gone into schools, spoken to sixth forms, and participation as is possible. brought the mobile unit to the school. It is perfectly possible, with a bit of effort and work, to achieve the two objectives of having the confidence that the electoral 6.11 pm register is genuine and, at the same time, do a lot of Lord Bates: My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the work to ensure that as many people as possible can noble Lord, Lord Empey, who has great experience in participate. this whole area, having seen it work successfully in The other thing in the figures that the noble Lord, Northern Ireland in nine elections, I think he said. Lord Trimble, read out to us was that in recent years That should give us some confidence that we are on there has been a massive amount of immigration into the right lines. We are all taking about how we can this country. As a consequence, European Union reduce the likelihood or the perception of fraud while citizens—non-UK citizens—have rights to vote at certain increasing the level of participation in the democratic elections. Taking all that into account, I wonder about process. That is the circle we are trying to square. It the accuracy of the figures that we have been given in may not be possible, but this is an unfolding process. terms of the validity of the electoral roll. Is it 82% or is I was slightly disappointed to hear the tone of the it more than that? I suspect it is probably a lot less noble Lord, Lord Wills, in his lengthy remarks on this because the register decays with time and from year to subject because I feel that we are continuing something year. The further away you get, the less the likelihood that was begun under the previous Government in the that it is accurate. The noble Lord, Lord Baker, made Political Parties and Elections Act, which they brought the point that anybody who has run elections or been forward. With a little bit of encouragement from the a candidate for election runs into dozens of people opposition parties, they came forward with the idea of who say, “Well, I’m sorry, mister, I’m not on the having individual electoral registration. That was seen register this time”. We all meet so many people in the as being absolutely right and proper. We are debating course of our politics who have that message to say the timeframe over which that is introduced, but the and, indeed, do so accurately. actual idea is beyond dispute. On that point mention One other thing I am glad to see us moving away was made by Mr Harper in the debate in the other from is this idea of the head of a household. It is an place on the report by the Organisation for Security outmoded idea in this day and age. Taking a mythical and Co-operation in Europe when describing the voting example, let us assume we had the Wallace household— system in the United Kingdom. He said that. any Wallace household, not necessarily the Minister’s. “the weakest link of the electoral process [is] due to the absence of Who is actually the head of that household? There safeguards against fictitious registrations”.—[Official Report, 23/05/12; might be some dispute as to that, and perhaps rightly col. 1177.] so, but there may be somebody there who fills out In many ways, that backs up the fact that there is a forms. Within a household, it has been known for problem that we need to address. Again I was slightly people to have political disagreements. Indeed, I have disappointed by the tone in the remarks of the noble known households where people are in different political Lord, Lord Wills, because I felt that the Government parties. Would noble Lords really be satisfied that the have brought this forward in a responsible way. They return from that household is accurate? I would not be had evidence-based analysis undertaken by the Electoral so sure about that. I certainly think that the head of Commission on which to draw conclusions. They subjected the mythical Wallace household will be glad to be the Bill to pre-legislative scrutiny, for which we in this relieved of the responsibility of filling out those forms. House are always arguing. Indeed, there had been an We have to get more research done as to why people excellent report by the Select Committee on Political stay off the register. I think that credit issues are one and Constitutional Reform, chaired by Mr Graham reason. I conclude by making one final point about Allen, which came forward with a number of suggestions, the risks to certain groups of individuals of being on but did not entirely endorse the approach. the register. It is not unknown for thieves to look at a At Second Reading in the other place, Mr Mark register to identify places where, say, women are in Harper made quite a lengthy speech in his opening single occupation of a dwelling and might be seen to remarks. One of the reasons for that was that he be vulnerable. People look at issues like that, and I announced four or five substantial changes to the Bill have been told that some people are concerned. Obviously to take account of the concerns that were being made. we have specific security concerns at home—while There is much to be welcomed in the Bill as it stands. they are not gone, thank God they are significantly Some people will be surprised that these things do not reduced—but certain groups of people find it happen already. The idea that we are going to do data uncomfortable to have their names known to different matching between different government departments groups of people. We should do some research to to check that the data held are the same—that is, that establish who these people are and why the register is the data held at the DWP are the same as that held at deficient. the DVLA—would be greeted by most people with, I hope that in Committee and further down the “We kind of thought you probably would be doing process we can address many of these matters in that already”. The fact that it was not and that it now detail. I understand the Government are bringing is has to be welcomed. 653 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 654

I think that the provision could go a lot further. We postal ballots at the previous election was 7 million, live in a world where we are used to having to produce and there were 150,000 spoilt ballots. The overall total utility bills and driving licences as proof of ID for the was about 3.8%. It would be helpful if in winding up most menial of purchases in stores. However, having the Minister would comment on whether that level of left your electoral registration card at home, you can spoilt ballot papers in postal votes is higher than wander into a polling booth to cast a vote in a general normal for votes cast in the polling both. That would election and just point to your name on the electoral be interesting to know. register, be given a ballot paper and be able to go into I have two ideas to increase the number of people a booth to fill it in and cast a vote. People might find on the register. One has already been referred to, so I that rather strange, but perhaps that debate is for shall not spend a great deal of time on it, other than to another time. We certainly want to reduce fraud. say that the fact that we have only about 25,000 or Again I refer to the remarks of the noble Lord, 30,000 overseas voters on the register is a real weakness Lord Wills. It is not easy, but you cannot argue that of our current system. It would be great to see that not taking action over suspected fraud is justified figure of 4.5 million increased to 5 million. My son is because you believe that action might result in a at university overseas, and I know that registering decrease in the number of people registering. A decrease from overseas is a very bureaucratic process. You have in the number would not necessarily be a bad thing if to go back to the place where you lived, track down the wrong people were on the list in the first place. In the electoral register and work from there. I do not see 2001, the Electoral Commission estimated that the why we do not have an office for overseas voters where number of eligible people missing from the register people could register online to claim their vote. If was 3 million, and in 2010 that figure had risen to people think that that might be a horrific prospect, I around 6 million. There is therefore a problem to be find it strange that we are able to fill in our tax returns, addressed. which is pretty confidential, online through the I defer to my noble friend Lord Baker of Dorking Government Gateway and, I think, make some benefits on virtually all matters, but as regards lengthening the claims. Why should people not be able to make greater election campaign period, I would be happy to see it use of registering online, particularly as this Bill extends increased to 25 days simply because I think that allows that? a longer period. Fixed-term Parliaments will also My final comment relates to how we extend strengthen the ability to increase awareness. I think participation, particularly among the young. We all that 25 days is the same length of time that was given recognise that that is a problem. A provision in the Bill to local elections. We are simply coming into line and talks about the Electoral Commission undertaking a into the 21st century, so I am quite comfortable about publicity and awareness campaign. Even the idea of a that. publicity and awareness campaign and the Electoral It would be good if in the wind-up speech the Commission coming together is causing most people Minister could comment briefly on civil penalties and to drift off to sleep. The idea that it is going to excite say whether there will be nationally set rates or whether young people seems pretty unlikely. I urge my noble there will be some local discretion along the lines of friend on the Front Bench, who I know is deeply parking fines. If it is to be a national thing, the idea sympathetic on all these matters, to look at innovative that there will be some locally set rate as to what that ways to increase the number of young people voting penalty should be would seem a little odd. The reason and perhaps to look at other countries, for example, we want to do this is because it is relevant not just for the US, to see how they have tried to do that. I viewed voting in the elections, but for jury service. There are a message online that was headed by Tom Cruise and substantial penalties for not turning up for jury service included various major stars and celebrities such as and there are substantial penalties if you do not Angelina Jolie and Justin Timberlake. All these widely complete your self-assessment tax return, so the fact known names were used to get the message across. that there should not be any penalties for not registering We could use social networking sites to promote to vote seems to me to be an argument which, let us awareness of voting and the importance of voting. I say, is not the strongest. think the Minister knows where I am going with this Postal voting is a very interesting area. I totally because we have had conversations before about “The support the idea that we should move from a 20% X Factor”. I think it is an interesting concept, not least sample testing to a 100% test against verification. But because Simon Cowell, with his commercial and artistic that will result in a sizeable increase. If the figures genius, managed to generate 15 million votes in the produced by the Library in a very helpful guide or final programme of the last series. That was more than companion to this debate are correct, they would the turnout in the local or European elections. It suggest that of a 20% sample about 150,000 ballot might just be that, in the process of consulting people papers were rejected. If one extrapolates that—it could about how to increase participation among young be wrong—and if you go to a 100% test. you might get people, you could do worse than consult Simon Cowell 750,000 cases where the signatures do not match or to see whether he can put a bit of X factor into our where the dates are not connected. If national insurance voting system. numbers and identifiers within that are required, the potential for that number to increase goes up significantly. 6.24 pm People will be advised after the election that they did not qualify. It will be a useful, if bureaucratic, process, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port: My Lords, I cannot but it would be an awful lot more helpful if somebody claim to have the allure or charisma of Simon Cowell could tell them before that happened. The figure for but, if your Lordships will excuse me, I am trying to 655 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 656

[LORD GRIFFITHS OF BURRY PORT] “I do not think that anybody was suggesting that the timetable dip my toe for the very first time into the waters of this be artificially shortened, or that any risk be taken with the kind of debate. I have sat for many hours in a House comprehensiveness of the register”.—[Official Report, Commons, that is stuffed with constitutional experts, people learned 13/7/09; col. 112.] in the law and those with glorious and glittering That was the assurance given us by the Liberal Democrats. political careers behind them and, in some cases, ahead Here we are with an arrangement or a direction of of them. I cannot compete with them in their analysis travel that all us want to see happen, which I am of what is happening around us, and I have not convinced we need to make happen at a pace that will wanted to compete with their excellence or experience. assure us of the assimilation of experience gained and However, I feel that I must remind myself that as a a confidence in destinations reached. That seems to citizen of this country, all these discussions relate to me to be so self-evident that I cannot quite understand the constitutional arrangements under which we all why the acceleration of individual registration is being live, claim our rights and want ourselves and our given so much attention. Since I did A-level Latin, I children to flourish, and I have as much right to speak have always subscribed to the tag, festina lente—it is in these debates as anybody else. It is in that sense that slowly that we make the most speed in a forward I dare, almost with the feeling that I am making a direction. After all, we are talking about a change of maiden speech, stand here and offer some thoughts culture, and a change of culture does not happen by now. diktat or by the imposition of a set of new rules and regulations that push things forward artificially.Therefore, I was terrifically interested in the cascade of figures we should do as my noble and learned friend Lord that the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, gave us about what Falconer suggests; take the proper steps at the proper happened when the voting arrangements in Northern pace, with good monitoring in place and proper scrutiny Ireland changed from household registration to individual at each step, so that we can have confidence in what we registration. I believe that the noble Lord said it was a end up with. straightforward move from one to the other, but that it took 10 years to return to the same level. Perhaps that However, I have one more problem that I want to ought to be a stark reminder that in anything we do in share with noble Lords. It was an article in one of our this Bill we should try to avoid losing so many voters newspapers by an Oxford professor—not that Oxford that it will take us 10 years to catch up. We might learn professors are always right. I suppose a Cambridge from that experience, perhaps avoid making the same man might say that. He says, mistakes and try to tread a safer path. “To move straight to individual registration risks moving straight to mass disenfranchisement of the young, the urban, the One of the great disappointments in my experience mobile and ethnic minority voters”. of the House is the way we have, in more recent times, That is my overriding worry; it is the main point that I got round to discussing constitutional measures. I feel want to offer in this speech. I have been considering that of all the things on which we ought to seek a this Bill at the same time as I have been trying to consensual arrangement, something that we can all evaluate a report on what happened with the riots in subscribe to, constitutional arrangements ought to be our inner cities almost a year ago. I live in the East on the highest rung. I have sensed the trading, whether End; at my front door is the borough of Islington, at obvious or subterranean, that has been going on between my back door the borough of Hackney. I am not far at the parties in government as they seek to satisfy each all from everything that was happening last year. others’ needs and expectations. It has been a major There are lots of young black teenagers within the feature of the way constitutional arrangements have company I keep and the people I try to offer mentoring been discussed in the House latterly. That may be a to. In conversation—although I can only be anecdotal layman’s observation, but it is deeply felt, and I feel about this—I do not detect a heightened understanding the need to say so before I continue with my remarks. of the probity, necessity or valour of voting. It is not just that we have to raise awareness, as the noble Lord, In 2009, when we considered our electoral system Lord Bates, suggested; we must educate and shape under another Government, we were all very clear that the expectations of whole bodies of people who feel we must reach whatever arrangements we end up with disenfranchised and quite at odds with the system. I consensually. Let me read what was said the other do not want to say anything that would appear to House by the then shadow Conservative Minister condone last year’s events. However, I know that if about moving towards individual registration. She you do not feel you are a stakeholder in a society, you said that these plans, have no motivation to involve yourself with it or with “should not be rushed by taken step by step to ensure that the shaping its future. So I look at the literacy and numeracy integrity of the system is protected ”— levels with which people leave some of our schools; I look at the lack of character formation within some of the noble Lord, Lord Norton, talked about the integrity our schools; I look at the brokenness of the homes of the system— and the difficult social patterns within which people “and not only protected, but seen to be protected, so that there is live. All these things are very real. We frame constitutional no perception of harm being done to the system … I can assure arrangements in order to prepare a country for this the Minister and the House that any future Conservative Government generation to grow up in, with all the diversity that would never take risks with the democratic process”.—[Official there is in our land in these days. Report, Commons, 13/7/09; col. 108-9.] I am trying to articulate, then, the needs and deep In that debate, the Liberal Democrats made similar desires of ordinary, young, urban people across the fulsome promises: ethnic groupings of our city. I do not want the system 657 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 658 that we end up with to threaten their involvement, body has ticked us off for lacking “safeguards against because they have so much to give. They are genuinely fictitious registrations”. At the same time, an astonishing talented people, but they do not feel plugged in. We number of people who ought to be on the electoral must work on that a bit harder. registers are not—some 6 million to 8 million of them, I have finished my remarks, and since I am six minutes according to the Electoral Commission’s latest estimate. early, perhaps the credit can be given to my noble Across the political spectrum we all agree what friend Lord Wills as some kind of compensation. should be done. Registration should cease to be undertaken on a household basis; it should become an individual responsibility, as many distinguished political 6.34 pm thinkers have long advocated. As this debate has made Lord Lexden: My Lords, we have heard some very abundantly clear, a consensus for change has not, wise reflections from the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths. It however, been accompanied by a consensus on the is a privilege to follow him. This is an immensely path to change, or on the speed of change. Perhaps important Bill, designed to help make democracy in that was always going to be difficult to sustain. I Britain work considerably better than it does now, and strongly support the Government in their belief that to restore the trust in it that has become so badly the magnitude of the registration problem is such that impaired. The Government submitted the Bill to we should proceed more quickly to a new system of prolonged pre-legislative scrutiny.It has been significantly individual registration than was proposed before the improved and strengthened as a result. There could be last election. That is what Part 1 of the Bill provides, no better advertisement for the value of this new and it is to Part 1 that I confine my remarks. parliamentary procedure, and the Government deserve The Government have rightly set themselves the great credit for the open-minded way in which they aims of making our country’s electoral registers as have carried out consultations over the last two years. accurate and as complete as possible. We must take I hope that the same open-minded attitude will be care to ensure that this major reform is not seen as a displayed in Committee. change designed to benefit particular political parties. On the matter before us today, great care is singularly After the passage of this legislation, there should be appropriate. Our country has never had a taste for careful monitoring of progress, not least in view of the frequent alterations of the fundamental features of its widespread fear that the transition to individual arrangements for electoral registration. Indeed, this is registration could reduce, rather than increase, the only the second time they have been radically changed numbers registered, as happened in Northern Ireland since their first appearance in the Reform Act 1832, of when individual registration was introduced there in which Mr Clegg is such an ardent fan. The Act created 2002. That fear may not have been wholly assuaged by a thoroughly bad system under the supervision of the Government’s wise decision to allow those on the incompetent officials, the overseers of the poor. Votes last register compiled under the existing system to be were awarded to the dead and to the unqualified. The carried over to the first register of the new system. 18th century practices—of which my noble friend In this connection I particularly welcome Clause 5, Lord Baker reminded us with characteristic vividness— which will introduce a civil penalty for those who were very much alive and well throughout the 19th century. refuse to comply when an electoral registration officer The system only worked creakingly, because the political asks them to register. As the debate has made clear, parties exerted themselves, with the assistance of expensive however, there are practical difficulties. This change lawyers, to fill the registers with as many of their firm has been included as a direct result of pre-legislative supporters as possible. They showed no scruples. “As a scrutiny, replacing the Government’s original intention class”, a parliamentary committee was told in 1835, of allowing individuals to keep themselves off a register “attorneys obtain more fraudulent votes than any other men in if they wish. the country”. In all areas, the main function of local party organisations Democracy frequently needs the help of the law to during the supposedly high-minded Victorian age was stiffen the incentive to take the right course of action. the manipulation of deeply flawed electoral registers. This is a case in point. In this connection, I remind the As late as 1896, the Liberal Party’s agent in Manchester House of one of the conclusions reached by the Political reported that the registration of votes, and Constitutional Reform Committee of the Commons in its report last November on the proposed new “involved an expenditure of about two-thirds of the entire cost”, system: of his organisation. “There appears to be no reason why failure to complete and Rectitude and competence finally arrived in 1918, return a registration form should be a criminal offence in Northern when responsibility for electoral registration was placed Ireland but not in Great Britain. The Government should take in the hands of local government officials. From that steps to remedy this inconsistency”. point until this, they have sought out the names of I also welcome the Government’s plans to ensure voters by, that a wide range of public data, at both national and “house-to-house or other sufficient inquiry”, local government level, are used to verify the identities as legislation prescribed. Now, however, the 1918 of those already on the register and to help pinpoint dispensation has fallen into disrepute in its turn. Our those who should be on it but are not. As we have long-familiar arrangements are tainted by fraud which, heard, a number of pilot schemes have been completed though unquantifiable, has aroused widespread public and more are on the way. As the Government have concern. As my recently married noble friend Lord made clear, depending on the outcome of the latest Bates reminded us, one highly respected international round of pilot schemes, the process of data matching 659 Electoral Registration and Admin. 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[LORD LEXDEN] who are inclined to say that our fellow country men will be used by electoral registration officers throughout and women abroad should take the nationality of the Great Britain to ease the transition to individual electoral country in which they reside, even though I understand registration in 2014. The Electoral Commission has that Mrs Clegg, who retains Spanish nationality, has a said that an, lifetime’s right to vote in Spain’s elections. There are “elector whose entries match will be confirmed on the register others who say that because they pay no taxes here and need take no further action”. they should not vote here, but many do pay taxes. In This is extremely important. Electoral registration any case, other countries do not admit taxation as a officers will then be free to direct their resources and principle for access to their franchises. Others say that efforts towards the minority of existing registered our fellow citizens abroad cannot feel a strong attachment electors who cannot be verified by data matching and to the United Kingdom after some years away from it. the missing 6 million. However, in the age of the internet, they can follow closely what is happening in their native land and, as I turn now to Northern Ireland, on which noble online participants, contribute powerfully to developments Lords from the province have already commented, taking place here whether they live in Perugia, Portugal drawing on their own direct experience. Northern or Pennsylvania. Ireland tends to be regarded solely as a cautionary I set out the case for change more fully in a debate tale—a warning that individual registration tends to initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Wills, in January cut the size of the electorate. However, perhaps it has and I propose to return to it in Committee. The not been sufficiently noticed that since 2002 several Government have this great issue under active measures have been taken under primary and secondary consideration, as the Minister confirmed in a Written legislation to rectify the main problems. Annual canvasses Answer to me on 25 June. There could be no better have ceased; a system of continuous registration now time for action than in this Diamond Jubilee year. operates; each elector has responsibility for updating Some 5.6 million subjects of Her Majesty live abroad. his or her entry on the register; and data matching and Many of them today stand hopefully at the bar of targeted canvassing have been introduced in the most British democracy. Let all those who wish to join us be effective manner. Since 2008, secondary schools have allowed to enter. been among the specified authorities from which the chief electoral officer, who has responsibility for electoral registration throughout Northern Ireland, can request 6.45 pm information for registration purposes. This has been Lord Tyler: My Lords, I start from a similar viewpoint an effective and successful innovation, as the noble to that of my noble friend Lord Lexden. We have Lord, Lord Empey, vividly described. heard much in this debate about the potential flaws in the new system but I will concentrate a little more on There are in Northern Ireland today some 12,000 more the known flaws in the status quo. The present system registered electors than there were before the introduction is broke and it needs fixing. We have learnt from of individual registration. The Electoral Commission several recent Bills that Governments have to identify announced in May that it would undertake a new the problem to which they are offering a solution if the assessment of the state of the electoral register in public are to accept that change is necessary. In this Northern Ireland, which in 2007 it had already found instance, there is clearly a problem and change is was 96% accurate and 84% complete, compared with necessary. The current registration system is so open 85% and 82% respectively in Britain, as shown by a to fraud that it might as well be an old uncrossed survey last year. Since 2003, there have been no allegations cheque, signed and left on the train. of electoral fraud although, as my noble friends from Northern Ireland will know better than me, that does I regularly take part and lead discussions in seminars not mean that the age-old Northern Ireland customs with electoral administrators from all over the world, have ceased completely.Overall, the lessons from Northern many from developing countries. All are astonished Ireland are sources not of universal anxiety but of when they learn that any male could walk into the considerable encouragement. polling station in my district and claim to be Paul Tyler, say that he lived at my address and be issued Electoral law in Northern Ireland remains the with a ballot paper. At the previous general election, responsibility of this Parliament. In their White Paper the presiding officer wanted me to vote for the on individual electoral registration last year, the parliamentary candidate and thought it most peculiar Government referred in paragraph 29 to their intention that I was not entitled to do so. I could easily have to align Northern Ireland legislation on individual done so. My noble friend the Minister and other noble registration with the rest of the country. In paragraph 32 Lords have referred to this as a matter for further they stated that they would include appropriate provision consideration. We will have to discuss this during the in this Bill. That does not seem to have happened. Committee stage of the Bill because it is clearly a Perhaps the Minister will be able to provide a word of serious security issue that needs to be dealt with. We explanation. must examine the case for recording signatures, or some Finally, I urge strongly that the scope of the Bill be other identifier known only to the individual elector, extended, as my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth as part of the registration process for those voting in argued, by adding to it provision to enable all our person as well as those voting by post or by proxy. fellow subjects of Her Majesty who live abroad to vote The alibi for maintaining the current insecurity and in our parliamentary elections. This would end the inaccuracy of our electoral process has always been to existing 15-year limit, for which no clear rationale has try to achieve notional completeness. I have a long- ever been offered. There are some, such as Mr Clegg, standing commitment to the integrity of this crucial 661 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 662 component of our representative democracy. I declare It could do worse than look at the example of a non-pecuniary interest as a member of the informal Hounslow. Here I am very grateful to Angela Holden, cross-party group that advises the Electoral Commission Hounslow’s electoral services manager, for permission on some of these issues. to quote this evidence. In that London borough, the council sends out a sequence of up to five forms. Completeness is an equally important objective, as Those who respond to the first are entered in a prize my noble friend Lord Rennard said. Clearly, there is draw to encourage early response. Two further reminders little point in developing a system that is so secure that go to all non-responders before canvassers start door- even those who should be on the register do not end knocking. At that stage each outstanding household up there. None of us wants that, but the existing receives no fewer than three more personal visits until system is by no means insulated from that problem. registration is achieved. Those who are recalcitrant enough still not to be registered at that point receive a The most recent Electoral Commission research, fifth form emblazoned in red, in big print: which has already been referred to, found that the existing electoral register is only 82% complete. Even “Register now or risk prosecution”. the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, Having made such sterling efforts to get people on the accepted that under the previous Government there register, Hounslow does follow through its threat of was a major problem. It remains. That figure is down court action with those who still do not respond. This from previous estimates of some 90%, which he also year the authority secured prosecutions against mentioned. Seemingly, some 2 million or 3 million 10 residents. Nine paid out £150 each and another electors got lost during the Blair and Brown £115. All had to pay £120 or more in costs. As the Administrations. The 82% figure is also the national leader of that council put it: average. By definition, that means that in some parts “Prosecutions are always a last resort, but we want to send out of the country registration levels are even lower. A a clear message to all residents that ignoring the electoral registration number of colleagues referred to this problem but they requirement is an offence, which carries costly consequences”. did not identify how low the figure is in some areas. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said that she The latest Electoral Commission research, completed found it difficult to see what precise civic duty we are in 2009, estimated that Glasgow, for example, has 74% emphasising. It is a civic duty to be available for jury of its residents on the register. Lambeth, just a stone’s service. Imagine in one of those previous boroughs to throw from your Lordships’ House, had only 73%. In which I referred, where it is down to perhaps 60% particular areas, one-quarter of those who should be registered, and particular groups of people are not on the register and are entitled to vote are simply not registering. Imagine how representative of that borough there. That is an extremely important point, which we the local jury might be if the register is already so have to address in the Bill. The status quo is not inaccurate. That is an important civic duty. It is not sustainable or acceptable. Since 2009 when that research just the opportunity to vote, but also the opportunity was done, the discrepancy, especially among younger to be a citizen in our local community. and more mobile people in the inner cities, may well That is how one borough, Hounslow, acts. It uses have deteriorated further. We should be under no the positive—the carrots, if you will—as well as the illusions that the existing system is adequate and negative. Its electoral services manager has told me acceptable. That is why the Bill presents an opportunity that: at least to start to reverse this deplorable trend. I pay “In January each year, we obtain records from our education tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Wills, who, in the department and check that those students that are eligible are previous Administration, tried to do this. To some registered—anyone not registered receives a letter and a registration extent his attempt to introduce and implement the form. We also send out a registration form with all new council move towards individual registration was effectively tax bills”— stopped by some of his colleagues, who were fearful of not every annual bill, but to those opening new accounts— change. “and with British citizenship packs at the ceremony”. My noble friend Lord Rennard has already referred I note the examples given from Northern Ireland, to the necessity for the Electoral Commission to take where this automatically goes into secondary schools, on a stronger role in directing the design of registration as part of the citizenship course, so that people see the forms. We have also heard from the Minister reassurances natural progress into being a fully-fledged citizen and that in future the potential for a civil penalty to be being registered to vote. levied when an individual does not register will be Again, Hounslow invites schools to visit the council prominently displayed. The size of the penalty is not chamber each October, during democracy week, and as important as the size of the printed warning on the conducts a mock election. This year 602 pupils are registration form. I looked at my registration form last coming to visit over four days. That is just one local week and it was not there at all. That is clearly authority acting with real imagination and determination ridiculous. to ensure that its registers are as accurate and as It is true, as a number of noble Lords have said, complete as possible. As a result, the authority reckons that in Northern Ireland the criminal penalty has been that its register is 96.5% complete. retained and has been found to be helpful in persuading That is a very important lesson. These efforts will people to do their civic duty. I hope that the Electoral be all the more vital when individual registration is Commission’s guidance will reflect the best practice introduced, so that the new system can be seen for the from across the country. opportunity that it is. Here I agree with the noble 663 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 664

[LORD TYLER] 6.59 pm Lord, Lord Wills, that in the end, the vital ingredient for the success of this change will be local commitment Lord Dobbs: My Lords, this Bill is part of the and resources, not just what the legislation says. coalition’s ongoing search for constitutional change. We have had a Bill on how we vote, with AV. We have I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues are localists. had a Bill on who we vote for, with the House of Lords We always have been and we always will be, because reform. Now we have a Bill to decide whether we can we acknowledge that Whitehall does not always know vote at all. Let us hope that this Bill is rather more best and that councillors are usually closer to their useful than the others. communities than civil servants and Ministers. Yet the binding principle of localism is that when decisions In essence this is a good Bill, although it will need a are taken closest to those whom they will affect, it is all great deal of work in Committee if it is to become as the more likely that citizens—by way of election—can sound as it is important. It is a paradox, is it not, that, choose people who will take the decisions they want. as so often, it will be this unelected House whose duty it is to sort it? Many of us party politicians—someone If that is to work equitably and democratically, the suggested today that we should call ourselves party-linked register must benefit from the highest possible integrity. parliamentarians, which is a much nicer phrase—have In that respect I am content that the high degree of political backgrounds, although I hope that we can national direction—which should be the responsibility approach this in a non-partisan fashion. The noble of the Electoral Commission—over the way in which Lord, Lord Wills, suggested that this was a partisan councils perform their work in this area, to achieve a Bill. I do not agree with him on that. He did not high level of quality control, is one of the most basic provide much evidence. I much preferred his points building blocks of our representative democracy. For about funding. it to thrive, it is critical that local authorities have the responsibility and the resources to undertake it. Let us face it, none of us owns this or that group of In this respect, as my noble friend Lord Rennard voters and no party has entirely grime-free hands in said earlier, local government has to carry out an these areas. Earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Baker, showed important national responsibility. I hope the Minister himself to be a past-master in the dark practices of can make clear again, as he did previously, that once electoral fraud, as befits a former Conservative Party the legislation is passed these authorities will be able chairman. If that has come out wrong, I am sure that to make use of extra resources that Government will the Hansard writer will find a way to make it slightly make available for this purpose. Whether it is practical more acceptable. Of the many instances he gave, we to have ring-fencing I do not know—the Minister may have to acknowledge that some of those involved be able to tell us—but we must make absolutely clear Tories. that these resources are for a national purpose and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Wills, is far too they must be used for that purpose and not any other. young to remember 1969 when the late Lord Callaghan, Our democracy is far too important to leave to chance. who was then simply known as Jim, buried a boundary This Bill has the potential to make registration far review simply because it did not benefit the Labour better, more accurate, and more comprehensive. Party. I have even heard outlandish rumours that some Of course, we will discuss important safeguards Liberal Democrats are threatening to do the same during its passage through the House. Noble Lords on now. I wait in expectation for one of them to jump up all sides of your Lordships’ House have referred to and say that this is not the case. But we must move on safeguards that they may be looking for. I am sure that from the suggestion that this is a partisan measure. the Committee stage will benefit from the wise and The vote was a right that our forefathers and mothers experienced voices that we will hear in this House. I fought for with too much sacrifice and too much believe the most important of all those safeguards—the suffering for it to be cheapened by this Bill being failsafe—is the one that my noble friend Lord Rennard turned into a game of musical chairs, waiting for has already suggested. It is very important to ensure others to be shoved out of the way and off the register that electors in 2016, who will have important local when the music stops. We all of course have our authority elections and the Scottish and Welsh devolved differences and preferences but I think that we are all Assembly elections, and which will in due course provide agreed that some measure of change is needed. the figures which will be the raw material for further boundary reviews, are dealt with in a way that is fully The current system is open not just to inaccuracy cognisant of the problems that have been referred to in but to fraud. As Judge Maurey has said, the postal this debate. If the implementation of individual electoral voting system is one which, registration has not gone as well as we would hope, “would disgrace a banana republic”. there will have to be a reassessment of that process. That must change. But I entirely understand the anxieties There will be other desirable safeguards. I have expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, heard several suggested during today’s debate. I know that change that is too rapid or too ill thought through we can rely on the wide experience of elections on all might disadvantage various minority groups. We must sides of this House to work out what they should be. take that seriously and study it in Committee, although In the mean time, the principle is self-evidently right I have to say that the arguments are frequently overdone. and has been supported by both Governments and For example, if a student is capable of registering for a Members of all parties. With those safeguards in loan, he or she is equally capable of registering for a place, I hope that the Bill will have my enthusiastic vote. We must test the provisions of this Bill to make support. sure that they are fair and balanced. 665 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 666

We have heard much in this good and very informative that a great deal more money will have to be found for debate. Perhaps I may share with noble Lords my campaigning in these extra weeks. I wonder where it experience of the last election. It is well known that I will find that money. am a man of limited imagination. As a result, I named my second son Michael. Therefore, in our household Lord Dobbs: That is an excellent point. In this we had two Michael Dobbs on the register in Wiltshire. Chamber previously, I have suggested that the lack of As it happens, some nameless, faceless registration adequate funding for political parties is one of the officer decided, quite sensibly perhaps, that there were things that undermines our parliamentary democracy. too many people with that name on the register. But, We will not solve it through this Bill but there is no without any checks or thought, on a personal crusade reason why it should be worse either. to implement data matching, my son’s name was crossed off the register. He found himself unable to vote. After There are many other details to discuss and I will many years of being on the register, he was unable to not detain the House any longer, except to point out vote last time around. Fortunately, it was of no great that the other place spent three days discussing these consequence. The admirable John Glen was elected in matters before the guillotine fell and they gathered up Salisbury with a handsome majority. their buckets and spades and departed. Once again, this unelected House will have to do the donkey work However, that is not the point. Under the current of democracy. It leaves me wondering where we would system, some who should be on the register are not be if we were elected—off on the beach with the other and some who are on the register should not be. We lot, I suspect. On that note, perhaps I may express the need to change that. In Committee, we will deal with wish that your Lordships will long retain the cherished many issues. This evening, I want to highlight only position alongside the mentally incapable and convicts one; namely, Clause 13, which extends the timetable and continue to be denied the vote. between dissolution and polling day. The Bill suggests that this should be lengthened from 17 days to 25 days, 7.08 pm which sounds innocuous. The reasons for this seem to be to make life easier for returning officers. I believe it Lord Collins of Highbury: My Lords, I hope to be is suggested that it delivers a small cost saving. But brief, not least because I hope to pop along to say there is a bite in the tail, and not simply that of voters farewell to Peggy Byatt, who has been one of the being bored to death, as suggested by the noble Lord, longest serving members of staff of this House. Lord Baker. Last May, when this Bill was introduced in the Of course, it is not simply 25 days. There are “dies House of Commons, Mark Harper, the Minister for non” which refer to weekends and bank holidays. In Political and Constitutional Reform, stated that the fact, those 25 days stretch to five and a half weeks. We aim of the Bill was to, recently passed the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, which, “tackle electoral fraud, increase the number of people registered in normal circumstances, means very predictable elections to vote and improve the integrity of the electoral register”.—[Official every five years. But not all circumstances are predictable. Report, Commons, 23/5/12; col. 1172.] Let us imagine a national crisis—for example, a desperate No one would disagree with that. As my noble friend economic and financial collapse in Europe, and political Lord Wills has stated, it was for these precise reasons paralysis here at home. Let us further imagine a that the previous Labour Government, with cross-party Government no longer capable of commanding a support, put through the Political Parties and Elections majority and losing a vote of confidence; and there Act. Those reasons also paved the way for individual being no agreement on a replacement and an election registration. being called. Because of the provisions of the Fixed-term However, in committing to this, we also provided Parliaments Act, that cannot be for another two weeks. for a phased timetable and independent testing of any Five and a half weeks becomes seven and a half new system, backed up with strong and effective weeks, which adds to the political and economic crisis monitoring by the Electoral Commission. Why did we that has created this situation. do it in that way? We wanted to make sure that the We are talking of a potential situation of political systems to stop fraud, which we are all committed to paralysis and governmental chaos at a time of national stopping, did not also exacerbate an already growing crisis that could stretch into months. We cannot always problem of underregistration. As we have heard today, predict political crises, let alone avoid them. But we there are millions of unregistered—mainly young and can prepare for them better than the straitjacket of low-income—voters missing from the electoral roll. Clause 13. We need to look at it again, and I hope that The Electoral Commission’s briefing, which has also Ministers will take a look at this and allow us to been quoted today, states that the December 2010 discuss it in greater detail. register was between 85% and 87% complete, with at least 6 million eligible people missing from it. It is the Lord Baker of Dorking: The noble Lord has had biggest scandal for our democracy that so many people great experience at Central Office. I agree with him are denied the opportunity to vote. The other issue entirely about the extension. Does he have an estimate that is combined with underregistration is the prospect of the extra cost that parties will have to bear as a that the growing number of people who do not vote in result of extending this campaign? At the individual elections will not see the point of registering to vote. constituency level, there will be considerable cost. At That concern is also shared by the Electoral Commission. the national level, all the main parties will want to Without a concerted and prolonged campaign, it is advertise. I wonder whether he has considered replying possible that the register may go from the near 90% to the Liberal Party, which proposed this, and telling it completeness that we hope we currently have to something 667 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 668

[LORD COLLINS OF HIGHBURY] register and the system are always utterly watertight. I hope that like 65%. As my noble friend Lady Gould said, 65% that reassures the Minister on that point”.—[Official Report, will result in as many as 10 million voters losing the Commons,13/7/09; col. 109.] opportunity to vote. What sort of democracy is that? I That was Eleanor Laing MP, Shadow Conservative shall repeat the question of my noble friend Lady Minister, speaking in 2009. Gould. Will the Minister give us the details of the The noble Lord, Lord Empey, in his excellent implementation plan now? Will they set out the timetable contribution, mentioned those dreaded words “ID in more detail and will they give us better figures on a cards”. This is why I have always supported the principle budget to ensure that we have an effective campaign? of national ID cards—a national ID system. I have This is not scaremongering when you consider the always been committed to it because it carries with it experience of Northern Ireland, on which we have had clear rights and responsibilities. I am sorry that many some very interesting perspectives. When the system of my noble friends—I mean to say many of the noble was changed there in 2002 it resulted in a huge drop in Lords opposite—are not committed to that principle the size of the register. It was such a drop that we had despite the fact that they want to ensure that the to address it in subsequent legislation, so we know electoral register has as many constraints on it as that there is a problem that we need to address. possible. Yet they are not in favour of the one thing that would deliver a system of integrity in our democracy. Although I believe very strongly that the timetable proposed in the Bill is too rushed, I welcome the Lord Empey: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord concession that there will be a carryover for those who Collins, for giving way. I referred to our system of are currently on but fail to register individually. However, electoral identity cards which are very specific and can this will not happen in my household or in the many, be used only for voting purposes. They are slightly many other households where everyone is registered to different from the national identity cards which were vote by post. As many noble Lords have pointed out, proposed here some time ago. Nevertheless, I am sure for many elderly people and people with disabilities, the noble Lord accepts that I agree with the point, voting by post is their only real opportunity to vote. I which I suspect he is trying to make, that it gives an do not accept the assertion of the noble Lord, Lord opportunity to know that the person standing in front Baker, that the fundamental problem with our electoral of the polling station clerk is the person who is entitled system is the extension of postal voting. With the right to vote. measures—we have talked about how those measures can be improved—postal voting undoubtedly increases Lord Collins of Highbury: I thank the noble Lord turnover. What we want is more people participating for that contribution. I agree with him completely but in our democracy. The fundamental problems are I have to confess that I was using the opportunity of more to do with false entries on the register. All parties his reference to ID cards to have a little go. When we and all individuals can take responsibility to highlight are talking about secure systems, we have to understand where they think there are problems and address them. that that issue cuts across all civic society. When I had that responsibility in the Labour Party we We need to ensure that any scheme of individual were very rigorous in pursuing any example where we registration passes the test of accuracy and completeness. found multiple registrations. Here I agree 100% with the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. He and I have a lot in common in terms of our Why, therefore, will postal voters and proxy voters previous experiences of elections. He may have won a be excluded from this carryover which, as we have lot more elections, but the fact is that we spent our heard, is going to affect a lot of elderly people and livelihoods and lifetimes trying to tell politicians to people with disabilities? For the record, in my own follow the rules and regulations. I agree with him household, neither my husband nor I will be eligible to 100% when he asks whether by focusing on accuracy vote when it comes to the general election; me because we are missing the fundamental importance of of my membership of this House and he because he is completeness. That is what this debate is about, and it a Spanish national. We have talked about the errors is what the Bill needs to focus on. I am sure that that is that can occur and about checking each signature. what the discussions in Committee will be about. Unfortunately, on one occasion—I am not going to Despite some welcome concessions from the say which election because I have proudly voted in Government that we heard articulated today, I am every one—when we were completing our postal votes afraid that they do not represent sufficient safeguards on the dinner table, I mistakenly signed his declaration to ensure that the Bill will not result in millions of and he mistakenly signed mine. Despite efforts to people being unregistered and therefore unable to contact the appropriate authorities, I fear that my vote vote. What we have is a speeded-up timetable for the was not counted on that occasion. introduction of individual registration purely—I put this at its best—to save money. Combine that with As many of my noble friends have pointed out, the another important issue, the downgrading of the role Bill rushes through a process that actually needs a lot of the Electoral Commission, and we are left with the of careful consideration and planning. Why the rush potential for long-term deterioration in the accuracy for the next general election? My sentiments about the of the electoral register. Bill are accurately reflected in the following quote: 7.22 pm “I also agree with the Minister that it would be difficult to introduce a new system shortly before a general election. There Baroness Eaton: My Lords, I add my strong support should be other ways of testing the system along the way to for the aims of the Bill. The disadvantage of being so ensure that the accuracy, integrity and comprehensiveness of the late in the speakers’ list means that most areas have 669 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 670 been covered by other noble Lords. However, the as a number of noble Lords have expressed, is the advantage is that I have had the opportunity of hearing turnout. After all, one hopes to get the highest turnout their interesting, wide-ranging and well expressed in democratic participation. comments. Those wide-ranging views have covered fraud, fines, timetables, reduction of numbers on registers, Some things in the Bill may improve that. Clause 14 postal votes and many other points. All will be discussed makes it clear that there will no longer be the in great detail in Committee. discrimination whereby there must be three weeks My main reason for wishing to speak in this Second between parish and community council elections. They Reading is because of my serious concern at the are being brought together to take place on the same existence of electoral fraud. I have had personal experience day as the European elections, local government elections, of it, but I hasten to add that it was not as a fraudster and the parliamentary general election. Those elections but as the past leader of a council in one of the cities are regularly held. However, what about the police mentioned by my noble friend Lord Baker. Three commissioner elections? They will be held every four members of my political group were found guilty of years but are not mentioned in the Bill. Is it necessary electoral fraud and, unfortunately, the common comment to include them to make sure that they can be held on in the community and of other politicians at the time the same day? It is important to do that because the was that the three who were caught were less practised Government, for one reason or another, have decided in fraud than the many other party members who to hold the elections for police commissioner in November, practised it, managed it with expertise and got away which will certainly affect the turnout. I therefore with it. hope that when we discuss these matters the Government will look at how the timing will affect those elections. I do not take pleasure or comfort in reminding your Lordships that politicians of various political persuasions I had three points to make. The second relates to have been convicted of electoral offences. I must say to the statement on the cover of the Bill in relation to the the noble Lord, Lord Wills, that he may feel that this is European Convention on Human Rights. It refers to not a major issue, but such circumstances are hugely Section 19(1)(a) of the Human Rights Act and then damaging to citizens’ views of the democratic process explains further inside. However, Article 8 is about and to the political process. voting. What is the Government’s position on prisoner voting? Does this mean that the human rights provisions Lord Wills: The noble Baroness may not have correctly apply only in a narrow sense, because there is difficulty? heard me. I was quoting a report by the independent As the Deputy Prime Minister in the other place made Rowntree Reform Trust and made it clear that even a clear, the legislation on House of Lords reform does single incident of electoral fraud should be taken not conform to the Human Rights Act and it could extremely seriously. I am afraid that the noble Baroness not be written on the face of the Bill. What is the inadvertently misrepresented my position. position now? Can the registrar register prisoners? Can they have a vote? Or has there been just a limited human rights interpretation? Perhaps the Minister Baroness Eaton: I apologise if that is the case. could tell us. It is not an enjoyable experience hearing, first-hand on the doorsteps at election time, voters clearly expressing I apologise for raising matters directly on the police the view that it is a waste of time voting when there is commissioner elections, but on the day that the Grand so much fraud taking place that can affect the outcome Committee dealt with that legislation we had the of the election results. Particularly in council elections Statement on G4S. I chose to attend here in the where majorities can be small, these events can have a Chamber and was therefore denied the opportunity to major impact on the outcome. raise points in that Committee. I hope that the Minister There is an issue that no one has raised but I have will bear with me as regards a particular point that he observed. There seems historically to have been a may be able to help us with, perhaps not by answering reluctance by the police to tackle and track down today but by writing to me about it. There is the electoral fraud. Perhaps the Minister will say whether problem of this new kind of election, which involves he thinks the new system of personal registration will police authorities, chief constables and the inspectorate help in this regard. all making decisions in their own different ways on I should like also to express my concern about how the candidates are to be consulted. Some are personation, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, laying down rules for some candidates by saying, “You because it often referred to as a potentially bigger must all sit in the room together”. As we know, there is issue than many of us recognise. I fear that we must nothing in that which we would agree with. You could urgently move to an electoral registration system that do it on the first occasion, but each candidate must gives all electors confidence in the integrity of that individually have the right to talk to either the chief system because it prevents fraud. I am sure that in constable or the police authority. That seems to be the Committee we will give a great deal of time and agreement between those two bodies, but it is not the attention to the detail, and that we will all be pleased opinion of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, to accept the end product. which I have here. It makes it clear that the meetings should take place on a one-to-one basis. 7.27 pm Obviously there are different ways of running this. Lord Prescott: My Lords, in the four minutes available An example is the financing of the mayor’s election. to me, I should like to make one or two points about There will be financing for that but not for these the Bill. I agree with some of it, but my main concern, elections. Different rules apply. What concerns me 671 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 672

[LORD PRESCOTT] their verdict on your record. This is going to be denied most—the Minister made it clear—is that the Government to the proposed elected Members of your Lordships’ are looking for a common way to run elections in the House, but will also lessen as a parliamentary seat’s future. I understand that and there is a lot of sense in make-up keeps changing to accommodate the coalition’s it. However, if we are deciding new rules particularly obsession with statistically numerical definitions of a for this election I wonder whether they might say that constituency, quite trumping habits, travel, community, legislation is not required, but merely a message from geography, history and place. the Home Office to say to the parties involved, “Why The ConservativeHome blog, which I recommend don’t you actually allow what is normal in other to everybody, told us last week the real reason for elections?”. If a candidate chooses to talk to the these new boundaries, which is quite different from parties whom he is supposed to ask for information—or, producing identi-sized seats. As Tim Montgomerie, indeed, if he has a responsibility to produce a plan—he known I am sure to those sitting on the opposite should be able to consult them. I hope the Minister Benches, blogged: will tell his colleagues that they should set out that “One leading aide to the Party Chairman told me yesterday message, because things are under way. Finally, it is that the passage of the new boundaries was the most important said that things will have to wait until you are registered single legislative change for the Conservative Party’s chances of as a candidate. That will be in October. Then a five-year winning the next election. CCHQ is pleased at the outcome of the plan will be produced for us, all within six weeks, that boundary review and it has confirmed the general view that the will have to be ready to give to the Government. A bit party needs a 10.5% lead to win an outright majority on existing of common sense should apply here. There should be boundaries but a much more modest 7.6% on the new boundaries”. a common rule and candidates should have the right So there we have it. It is nothing to do with a more to be able to talk face to face. equitable spread of the electorate but the search for an outright majority to dump the Lib Dems. No wonder they are thinking twice about voting for those new 7.31 pm boundaries. Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, this I digress. The issue before us today is about just one has been an informative debate with much commonality part of boosting the accountability and representativeness of approach, especially regarding the desire for a of elections, whether for police commissioners, to the complete register. As my noble and learned friend Commons, to local authorities, to the European Lord Falconer said, this side of the House supports in Parliament, to devolved Administrations and maybe principle the move to individual electoral registration, even to this magnificent building. However, there are and indeed we congratulate the Government on listening serious concerns that the Government must answer. during their consultation and making some significant First, on methodology, why, as everyone has asked, adjustments, as set out by my noble friend Lady is there no carryover for postal votes, which are largely Gould, especially to introduce a civil penalty, to remove used by some of our most disadvantaged groups who the opt-out and to have a full canvass in 2014. can no longer get out and about for the joy of a walk Individual registration recognises the increased to the polling station? Interestingly, these electors are emphasis on the rights of the individual and it reflects already individually registered rather than household how we vote—as individuals, not as family blocks. As registered, so they are a little ahead of the game. has been said, it was the previous Labour Government Postal votes should, as I think many noble Lords have who legislated for this to deal with inaccuracy, but said, be carried over to the register for the 2015 particularly the incompleteness, of the register. We election; there is really no democratic case against want to capture those 6 million people who are effectively that. The way in which the register is compiled will be disenfranchised; nearly half of whom think that they crucial, and to be successful there must be sound are on the register; the figure is 25% in some areas, as strategic planning plus adequate ring-fenced funding. the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, reminds us. It cannot be allowed to fail because of Treasury miserliness. However, individual registration has only a part to Secondly, on timeliness, why are the Government so play. The democratic deficit also arises from insufficient keen on speeding up individual electoral registration? preparation in schools for participation in the political No explanation was given throughout the passage of process, despite the very good example that the noble this Bill through the other place although, as the noble Lord gave us of, I think, Hounslow. Our press, which Lord, Lord Dobbs, said, that was a rather short period. is forever decrying the role of democratic governance, This is the biggest change to the registration system does not help, and there is also the lack of action to since 1928 and therefore needs careful planning and ensure that under-registered groups, be those private implementation. We have spent years building up the sector tenants, BME residents or the young, are motivated register, and we should not jeopardise it for some both to register and then to vote. quick-fix formula. I ask, as others have, whether the Added to this will be the new boundary rules, which Government have a coherent implementation plan. I will force changes to constituencies every election. was somewhat taken aback by the Government publishing Those rules are actually quite undemocratic because on 17 July, just as MPs who know about the intricacies they will break the ongoing link between an elected of registration and its drawbacks were—again, to use Member and her or his constituents. Voting alone, the words of the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs—packing which particularly those in the House who have been their buckets and spades for their week at the seaside. MPs will know, is not all there is about democracy—it It does not sound a very good time to produce the is also about accountability. That means going back to so-called implementation plan. It is a bit weak and those who elected you after a five-year Parliament for seems to provide more evidence about this ruinous 673 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 674 timescale for proper scrutiny as well as implementation. staunch underpinning of the voting system. We have This is very different from the step-by-step approach been reminded how the register was undermined by quoted by my noble friend Lord Griffiths of Burry the poll tax, when suddenly there was a price to being Port. on it. It has taken much work to pull back from that, There are risks in speeding up the timetable for so never again should a politician be able to take a what should be an invaluable democratic tool, but a decision, such as ending the annual canvass, that could tool which, if mishandled, could undermine trust in so impact on people’s right to vote. the voting system in a way that will rebound not only What is lacking in the Bill? What does this House, on the present Administration but on the whole system in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, have a of elections, which will be bad for all of us. duty to sort? First, we must secure cross-party agreement The results of the data-matching pilots will not be on timing and implementation to ensure that this is known until this Bill becomes law, yet there is no done for the sake of our whole democracy and not just built-in safeguard should the pilots demonstrate significant one part of it—or should I say “party”? We want a flaws in the chosen methodology. Given that the present guarantee of adequate funding for the job; “Don’t register does not contain dates of birth, there must be skimp” was the advice from the noble Lord, Lord questions about how well it will match with DWP Norton of Louth. We need a proper mitigation plan information, especially for those with common surnames should the pilots suggest that the methodology is not such as a Baker, a Collins, a Wills or a Dobbs who is robust. We need sufficient safeguards to ensure that even less imaginative in insisting in cloning his name there is no reduction in completeness and fairness. We within the same household. need provision to carry over postal votes to the new register without people having to reapply for them. We Indeed, as the Minister will recall, in Grand Committee need the removal of the power for a party-elected I questioned what would happen if the Electoral Minister to abolish the annual canvass. And we need Commission’s and the Cabinet Office’s assessments of to carry over the May 2015 register for the December the pilots varied. Answer, I am afraid, came there redistribution of boundaries, otherwise it will look as none. The evaluation of those pilots may not even if the parties in Government are artificially omitting impact on the Government’s determination to move those least likely to register, such as the young, tenants forward on an individual register to their predetermined and the mobile, from the all-important numerical timetable, no matter what their outcome. The previous count. Government proposed a gradual implementation along an agreed timetable; now it is hurried and done without My predecessors fought for the right of women to consensus. No wonder people are worried. vote. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, used the word “sacrifice”—and they did. Today we must ensure that Thirdly, there is the apparent downgrading of the the urban, the young and even the rioters, to use the monitoring role of the Electoral Commission. Surely words of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, are enabled the commission should have to certify that individual and encouraged to register. The new scheme must help registration is functioning properly before anyone make the right to vote a reality for a greater proportion previously registered to vote loses that right. As the of our citizens. We must do all that we can to make noble Lord, Lord Rennard, said, we must know that it individual registration a benefit and not a way of is working before we use it as the basis for boundary excluding voters. This should be above and apart from changes or for the 2015 general election. Will the party politics. It is too important to play games with. Minister share with us the risk register for this project? It is a matter of fairness, accuracy, inclusivity and If he does a Department of Health and refuses, will he consensus. We hope that the Government will heed at least let the Electoral Commission have the risk our concerns. register so that its work can take account of the likely pressure points and vulnerabilities of the scheme? Fourthly, why does the Bill seek the power to abolish 7.45 pm the annual canvass? This is essential. It is not a luxury Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, this has been a that all eligible voters should be on the register. As the very worthwhile Second Reading, and a number of noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, the register decays very valuable points were raised that we will all pursue with time. As a people, we continue to move, probably further in Committee. I say straightaway to the noble more rather than less. Families form and, sadly, break Lord, Lord Prescott, that he raised a number of very up; people’s employers change far more than those of interesting points on which I was not fully briefed, so our parents’ generation; people move abroad and back; I will be very happy to write to him on them. and people change their name—even women. My We can take either a partisan or a non-partisan generation of women’s-libbers assumed that none of approach to this Bill in Committee. I very much hope us would ever take our husband’s surname, but strangely that we will follow the suggestion of the noble Baroness, that has not been the case. An enormous number of Lady Gould. Surely our goal must be to achieve a changes are going on. We will seek in Committee to complete and accurate register—although I have to remove this pernicious little power. say, as complete and accurate a register as possible, Allowing an elected politician to tamper with the because we all recognise that we already have problems register of voters in this way is something akin to a with the register in both respects. We are trying to Henry VIII power. It was as far back as 1918 that improve that, and none of us has the hope that we will responsibility for compiling registers was transferred be able to get complete accuracy or completeness. So to two public officials who were independent of the let us take as non-partisan an approach in Committee candidates and their friends. We should not undo this as we can. 675 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 676

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] returned to power on 35% of the votes cast—barely a If I were to take a partisan approach, I would be quarter of the electorate—and the majority of the quite sharp with both the noble Lord, Lord Wills, and media and the Opposition did not cry, “Illegitimate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, whose and improper”. However, it was close to the bounds of opening speech reminded me of one that a prosecuting democratic acceptability. counsel might make in a case where he knew that the How will we engage young people? The noble Lord, evidence was relatively weak. The noble Lord, Lord Lord Bates, in particular asked how we are working Wills, suggested in effect that this was a vast Conservative with Bite the Ballot and Operation Black Vote. We conspiracy in which the Liberal Democrats were somehow have not looked very far into the question of whether co-conspirators. I have done my politics in cities and I we should have campaigns which involve personalities know of many cases of election fraud, mainly in local and celebrities. However, we have looked at using elections and often by Labour voters against Liberal social media more. We are looking at the experience in Democrats, that were not pursued by the Liberal Northern Ireland where working in schools with what Democrats because of the immense expense involved are called the “attainers”—16 and 17 year-olds—has in mounting a challenge. I am talking about Kirklees, provided better civic education. Taking registration Manchester and Bradford, although I am well aware forms into schools has clearly had a very positive of cases in Burnley, Birmingham and elsewhere. As effect. As we move to individual registration, we very the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said, what sort of democracy much hope to follow this experience to ensure that we is it when we have severe problems at local level? I am catch the attention of young voters, many of whom also very conscious— are not terribly interested in politics at that time. Lord Wills: I must correct the misapprehension that The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, raised the issue the Minister is under. I do not think that I used the of elderly and disabled people. We are consulting with word “conspiracy”, and I was not alleging any grave Scope, Mind and a number of other bodies on how conspiracy. I was trying to take noble Lords through best to make sure that access is maintained and how to the consequences of the Government’s approach to improve access to polling stations where possible. The the review of boundaries in 2015, and the partisan levels of suspected fraud for postal votes and proxies political consequences that could well ensue—that are much higher than for those giving personal votes was all. It is perfectly open to the noble Lord to give in the election. Therefore, asking people to reassure us me good arguments why those consequences will not during the transition that postal and proxy votes are happen, and I shall be completely reassured. There is real is a justifiable way of improving the accuracy of no question of a conspiracy; it is just a question of the system. natural consequences following from what the Perhaps I may talk about the difference between Government are trying to do. this Bill and the previous Act. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred to a “ruinous timetable” as if Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I shall do my utmost to this were being rushed through unannounced. I remind reassure the noble Lord by the way that we handle the the noble Baroness that this Bill has been through Bill as it goes through. I regret that the level of pre-legislative scrutiny and through the other House. Cross-Bench participation in this Second Reading debate We have listened and changed the Bill. When the was not higher, because there is a lot of expertise on Political Parties and Elections Bill was introduced in those Benches about the groups we most want to the Commons, it contained no provisions for individual reach—the most vulnerable and marginal groups in electoral registration. However, when the Conservative society who are least involved in politics. We share a Opposition tabled a reasoned amendment and voted common interest in trying to get those people re-engaged against the Bill, relevant clauses were added in the in politics, and we recognise that we all have a problem Lords. These were not discussed fully in the Commons, in getting them re-engaged. I spent some time over except when the Bill returned from the Lords. It is, recent weekends on big estates in Bradford where the therefore, grossly unfair to suggest that we are rushing level of turnout was astonishingly low and the level of into this or, indeed, as I understand the opinion of the registration fairly low. noble Lord, Lord Wills, that the previous Bill was To suggest—as I think I also picked up from some perfect and this is somehow imperfect. noble Lords on the Benches opposite—that somehow The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, asked me about these people belong to Labour and are naturally Labour, the statement on the invitation on the civil penalty and even if they do not vote or even register, is stretching how prominent it would be. The Electoral Commission the argument. They belong to no party, and we all will design the invitation form and will test it with share the problem of how to get them re-engaged in users to achieve the best possible form to encourage society, politics and community life. I agree with the registration. I know that there is much concern about noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that in this respect we differences between local authorities in the duties of have many problems. We are struggling against a the electoral registration officers. These duties will be deeply cynical media that reinforces the instinctive clearly set out in the Bill, secondary legislation and in scepticism of rising numbers of voters. We all have to Electoral Commission guidance. We are working closely demonstrate that we share a concern for the quality of with the Electoral Commission to ensure, as far as our democracy and of our democratic institutions. possible, a consistent approach across local authorities. Perhaps I may make one more partisan remark The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, will no doubt return before I return to being my usual entirely non-partisan in Committee to how large the civil penalty should be self. In the 2005 general election, the Labour Government and how often it should be applied. If an individual 677 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[24 JULY 2012] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 678 has been issued with the penalty and subsequently noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, would like to applies to be registered, we intend that the penalty will see it. Progress is being made, but it is being tested as be waived. We are not persuaded by his suggestion of we move forward. multiple fines in a single year—whatever it might do to The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, and others suggested assist the Treasury. that the data-matching pilot had not yet been evaluated. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, asked The Electoral Commission and the Cabinet Office what we are doing now to increase registration rates. I have evaluated the pilots undertaken so far. A further have already said a little about that. We are closely exercise is taking place this year, and that will be studying the experience of Northern Ireland. We have evaluated over the next few months. The first pilots seen the excellent work there and we hope to learn were very valuable in testing the usefulness of data from it to ease the transition, which I have already matching and what is required to share and match described in my opening speech. The Cabinet Office is data effectively. The evidence suggests that we can leading a programme of work to maximise electoral simplify the transition for existing electors by using registration among the groups on which we all agree—that data matching to confirm their details as accurate. As is, the ones that are currently under-registered or I have already explained, it produces a floor of around identified as at risk of falling off. However, we recognise two-thirds of people, which enables us to concentrate that under-registration is not the responsibility of our efforts on the remaining third to make sure that we Government alone. We will work closely with partners get them back on the register as well. Later this year across the public, private and voluntary sectors. I hope we will run a second set of pilots to confirm the that we will all engage in this effort and encourage conclusions of the first round and to refine the process people from voluntary organisations to engage in it as of matching data. well. The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, suggested that we The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, also should use data mining on private databases as well. I asked me what evidence should be required. We dropped have to say that we would begin to get into issues of the requirement for a signature on the grounds that a privacy and access to data if we were to go too far in date of birth and a national insurance number would that direction. As I have been learning about this be adequate in themselves. We propose to require process—and in regard to the census—I can hear these to enable online registration. We hope that people Liberty and some other groups at my back as they will gradually move forward with the technological begin to worry about it, so there are questions of change. I was struck by the DWP evidence about the privacy. However, we are speaking to organisations speed at which people are moving to interact with that hold potentially useful data, including the credit the state online. Within the next five to 10 years, the reference agencies, to establish the most useful data for overwhelming majority of people, including those of the purposes of finding people who are not registered. our generation, will be likely to interact with the state The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, asked about the online. That is why we are moving in this direction and publicity campaign. That will be the responsibility of why it is proper to take in this Bill a power to suspend the Electoral Commission, which of course will play a the annual canvass at some point in the future, as has major role in the entire process. I do not accept the been done in Northern Ireland, when it seems that the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that number of people dealing with registration online has there is an apparent downgrading of the role of the reached an appropriate level. Electoral Commission. Perhaps we can discuss that The noble and learned Lord also asked me questions further before the Committee stage, but if it is a about the budget of the high-level implementation concern then clearly we need to meet it. I anticipated plan. I am sorry that he did not pick up from my the question about risk registers. The Government do opening speech that there is £108 million allocated not publish risk registers, and we can return to the over the spending review period. We are also making point at a later stage. excellent progress in developing IT and we are pleased I was asked why we are abolishing the annual by the engagement of electoral registration officers of canvass. I again suggest that we have no intention of the Association of Electoral Administrators— abolishing it until we are sure that we are getting sufficiently good results by other means. Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: The question I Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Although I am very put to the noble Lord was why the Government had encouraged to hear about the excellent progress being taken on the power to do so rather than it coming made, perhaps it would be possible to write and say back to the other House. precisely where we have got to because it is not easy to make an assessment when things are going fabulously. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: It may be that the other One needs a little more detail, if that is possible. I House thinks that it needs an affirmative resolution. It accept that it may not be for now. is a very good point that we can of course discuss in Committee, but it certainly does not need primary legislation. As the noble Baroness knows, it has been Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I was just coming to the carried through in Northern Ireland and it appears to further detail. Perhaps I may issue a personal invitation. have been successful there. A number of parliamentarians have already seen a The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, asked about whether demonstration of the website that is to be used for there would be a single level for the civil penalty. We registration. I am happy to offer a further demonstration intend to reach a single level within the spectrum, but of the prototype if any noble Lord, including the we are consulting with various interested parties on 679 Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill[LORDS] Electoral Registration and Admin. Bill 680

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] Baroness Gould of Potternewton: I thank the noble what they think the appropriate level should be. Perhaps Lord, but that is not the interpretation that is being the noble Baroness would like to put down an amendment put on it by the Electoral Commission. It has raised suggesting that we adopt the Finnish system, which is this as an issue that needs to be looked at. Perhaps I that the appropriate level should be a percentage of a could pass the information on because it might be of person’s declared income for the year. That is how the help. Finns impose traffic and parking fines, but that is not our intention at the moment. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I have read the note from the Electoral Commission on this. Baroness Gould of Potternewton: Or maybe we could The question of overseas electors will be raised. I use the system in Brazil. You cannot get a driving had a conversation off the Floor of the House with licence unless you are on the register. the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, in which we agreed that we are both being lobbied heavily by our local party organisations from Brussels and Luxembourg Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I regret to say that that on this issue. The Government do not have any plans might be of declining utility. One of the things I have at the present moment to lengthen the period from learnt while looking at data sets is that the number of leaving the country beyond 15 years, nor do we have young people who are registering as drivers is declining. any really ambitious plans to do what is done in some It is a good thing for those of us who think that public other countries, which is to allow voting in embassies transport is much more important in the cities, but and consulates. However, the longer electoral period fewer young people are learning to drive and getting will help. driving licences, which is why that data set is not quite as useful as we thought. I hope that that covers many of the questions which have been raised— My noble friend Lord Norton asked why the Government were taking in Clause 21 a power to Lord Wills: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. I repeal the establishment of a co-ordinated online record understand from the Companion that the time is now of elections. As we have said before, the costs of up. However, I did ask quite a large number of very building and running the record seem to us to be specific and detailed questions, most of which derived disproportionate when weighed against its potential from the impact statement published by the Cabinet benefits. He also asked about the edited register, to Office. The Minister has not even referred to them. If which we will clearly return in Committee. The edited there is no time now, I would be grateful if he could register is much beloved of charities and voluntary write to me with detailed answers to those questions. organisations. Now that I have to speak for the Cabinet Also, he told me at the beginning of his speech that he Office, I have learnt that the lobbies in the charities would deal with the particular problem of the impact sector are as determined and uncompromising as the of any fall in registration on the boundary reviews. lobbies in any other sector. They are very strong on Perhaps he might be able to squeeze in a few seconds maintaining the edited register, but the Government on that. are committed to maximising registration rates, although we recognise that there are a number of issues about Lord Wallace of Saltaire: We will return to many of the names that appear. Perhaps that is another question these issues in Committee. We have taken on board for discussion in Committee. everything that has been said in the debate. We are confident that by going through the transition process Lord Empey: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. and learning from the Northern Irish experience, we Could he address the issue of whether any research will come out with a register that is at least as complete has been or will be undertaken to establish why people as it is at the moment, and more accurate. Let us all are not registering to vote? Do we have any detailed recognise that we are operating against a decline in research or is any being planned? the completeness of the register over the past 10 to 20 years and that, first, we have to stem that decline. If we were to continue with household registration, it is Lord Wallace of Saltaire: That is a very good question likely that it would decline further. If we can work to to which I do not have the answer, so I will write to the reverse that decline and bring about a transition by noble Lord about it. I suspect that there is a multitude which we will catch those who move around rapidly of reasons. Of course, some people have good reasons such as students and young people, we will have done for not being on the register, including people in extremely well. witness protection programmes and some celebrities. A range of issues can be cited, and there are others Lord Wills: I am sorry to press the Minister, but will who are simply moving around too quickly, are not he provide me with the answers to my questions? interested or who do not want to have contact with the state. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I am happy to The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, queried the phrase, write to the noble Lord in spite of the fact that he “as far as is reasonably practicable”. strained the patience of the House and of myself with It is intended to refer to the completeness of the the length of his speech. register, which comes back to the point that we do not Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee expect electoral registers to be able to be 100% complete, of the Whole House. but we want them to do their utmost to get as far as they can. House adjourned at 8.07 pm. GC 255 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 256

the same or similar powers for local schemes as they Grand Committee currently had to investigate and tackle fraud in council tax benefit claims. Therefore, it is necessary for the Tuesday, 24 July 2012. Government to provide authorities with the appropriate equivalent powers to be able to deal with fraudulent Local Government Finance Bill claims for a reduction in council tax liability. Committee (6th Day) New Section 14B specifically will allow the Secretary of State to create offences equivalent to those that 3.30 pm currently apply. In particular, the Secretary of State may make regulations providing that it is an offence Clause 13 : Regulations about powers to require for a person to delay or obstruct an officer exercising information, offences and penalties his powers to require information or to refuse or fail to provide information when required. Regulations may also create offences where, for Amendment 93ZE instance, a false statement has been made in connection Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton with a person’s council tax liability or a person has 93ZE: Clause 13, page 10, line 7, leave out “by a person” failed to notify a change in circumstances that affects their liability to pay council tax. This includes the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this is a probing ability to create equivalent offences both of dishonesty and, I hope, brief amendment. I apologise for the tardiness and of dishonestly and falsely making representations in laying it, but it was prompted by the statement of for council tax reductions. We will not be giving local intent on information sharing and powers to tackle fraud authorities powers to enter premises, powers to conduct —a statement which I found really useful. The problem inquiries or to remove and copy documents from such with statements is that they answer lots of questions premises. The powers we are giving requiring people but sometimes throw up one that you had not thought to supply information and enter into arrangements of before, hence the amendment. under which access is permitted to relevant records will be sufficient for council tax purposes. New Section 14B, inserted into the Local Government Finance Act 1992 by Clause 13, enables regulations to To be clear, we are not introducing new powers for be made to describe a number of offences. It is proposed local authorities through these provisions. We are that they cover such matters as causing delay or obstruction, simply ensuring that some of the powers they currently dishonest representations and false representations. have in relation to council tax benefit are recreated for The statement of intent explains the plan to introduce reduction schemes. Nor are we simply reintroducing offences that are equivalent to those that currently all the existing powers for local authorities that they exist in relation to council tax benefit and other benefits. currently have to tackle council tax benefit fraud. However, paragraph 3.25 of the statement indicates Instead we have worked with local authorities to identify that not all existing offences are to be replicated, only those powers and offences that will be needed for local those that are deemed “necessary and proportionate”. schemes. Thus the probe is to ask which offences that currently Regulations under new Sections 14A to 14D will be apply are considered to be disproportionate and unnecessary subject to affirmative procedures so that both Houses in the new regime. I beg to move. will be able to consider the appropriateness and proportionality of offences under the regulations. The The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department noble Lord asked me specifically which current powers for Communities and Local Government (Baroness in relation to fraud we are not planning to recreate in Hanham): My Lords, my understanding was that this these regulations. Perhaps I may go through the ones is a probing amendment, and I thank the noble Lord that we are not planning to reintroduce. The first is for confirming that it is. The effect of the amendment allowing the Secretary of State to authorise individuals would be to remove the words “by a person” from new to carry out investigations. Local authorities currently Section 14B(1) of the Local Government Finance Act. authorise the individuals carrying them out, and this Powers to investigate potential fraudulent claims power will remain. As for the Secretary of State’s power for reductions in council tax liability and to prosecute to require individuals to enter into agreements to and issue the appropriate penalties will be vital to local supply electronic information, local authorities’ existing authorities to ensure the effective administration of powers to require electronic information will be retained, schemes and the control of costs. As the Government so taking the Secretary of State out of those requirements. made clear when they amended the Bill in the other place On powers of entry, we have made it clear that we will by introducing Clause 13 to insert new Sections 14A not reintroduce wide powers of entry. Local authorities to 14D into the Local Government Finance Act 1992, will have powers to request relevant information which we believe that it is important that existing investigatory is proportionate to the needs of council tax reduction powers in relation to local authorities offences and schemes. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s relevant penalties to tackle fraud under social security question. legislation are available to local authorities in relation In the statement of intent, to which the noble Lord to council tax. referred, published on 9 July, we set out exactly how In response to the consultation on localisation of we intend to use the powers under new Sections 14A council tax support last year, a majority of local to 14D to make regulations, making clear that these authorities that responded said that they would need powers would relate only to reduction schemes. I am GC 257 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 258

[BARONESS HANHAM] an interaction between two bits of legislation. I do not clear that the powers in the Bill are sensible measures think that I am equipped, and my team behind me look to ensure that local authorities have the appropriate a bit blank. So perhaps I could write on that particular powers to investigate and prosecute fraud. I hope that aspect, but I hope to be reassuring on the rest. the noble Lord will be reassured by what I have said. Amendment 93A seeks to ensure that any changes made by the Bill will not impact upon the disabled band Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am grateful reduction scheme. The scheme offers a reduced council to the noble Baroness for that response. We support tax bill, where a disabled person lives in a larger house and accept that local authorities should have powers than they would have needed if not disabled or where the that are necessary and proportionate for them to carry living area for normal use has been reduced. The Council out their duties in tackling fraud. The noble Baroness Tax (Reductions for Disabilities) Regulations 1992 set itemised the current arrangements which are not to be out the qualifying criteria for a reduction under this carried forward. Frankly, I would like to read the scheme. No part of the Bill has an impact upon the record on that, but I believe that it deals satisfactorily scheme, nor will any of the subsequent regulations with the purpose of this probe. I beg leave to withdraw that will be made. The Government regard this scheme the amendment. as an important form of support to disabled people and has absolutely no wish to make any changes to it. Amendment 93ZE withdrawn. Given that there is no question of any change, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw this amendment. Clause 13 agreed. Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I thank the Minister Amendment 93A and my noble friend. I am very glad to hear that, and I Moved by Baroness Hollis of Heigham am grateful that the Minister was able to give us the reassurance that we sought. With the permission of 93A: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause— the Committee, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. “Council tax reduction: disabled people Nothing in this Act shall affect the current eligibility of Amendment 93A withdrawn. disabled people to receive a reduction in their council tax liability through the disabled band reduction scheme.” Amendment 93B Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, this is a Moved by Baroness Hollis of Heigham probing amendment seeking reassurance from the Minister 93B: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause— that the existing system will be retained by which “Additional council tax band disabled people who have made adaptations to their The Secretary of State shall consult with local authorities property do not find their property going up a band. It for the introduction of an additional higher band of should stay in the band, or, in some cases, drop a council tax —“I”— in England, for dwellings with a band. I have no reason to think that the Government 1991 property value of £420,000, at a tax rate relative to intend that this should change, but, given the discretion Band D of 21/9; or its 2013 equivalent.” to local authorities, I would be grateful if the Minister would give us reassurance on that point. Baroness Hollis of Heigham: This amendment will not be debated quite so fast or, I suspect, quite as Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we speak in supported in its intent. It is a probing amendment, support of my noble friend’s amendment, which is a and I am very sorry that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, probing amendment, as she explained. I dug out some could not be here at this stage for these discussions, of the requirements for getting the benefit of the because I know that he supports the issue in general, disabled band reduction scheme. It talks about, although he might have particular concerns to raise. I “an additional bathroom or kitchen…aroom(other than a know that he believes that this is something that we bathroom, kitchen or toilet) required to meet the needs of the should discuss. disabled person, and used predominantly by them … extra space I favour council tax over local income tax, let alone inside the property to allow for the use of a wheelchair”. the poll tax, because half the charge relates to property It says: and half to a two-person family. The property band “The room or the wheelchair must also be of major importance on which that half of council tax rests is determined to the disabled person’s well-being, due to the extent of their by the 1991 valuations and hinges around the fulcrum disability”. of band D, to which I shall come back. The amendment I hope that that is still available in the system. Is there does not try to introduce a new higher rate band I but the potential for an inconsistency in government policy asks instead that the Secretary of State explore that between supporting as we do the disabled band reduction with local authorities and puts it on the agenda for scheme and the consequences of potential deemed discussion. That is all that it seeks to do. Why does it under-occupation of social housing, which could lead propose that? There are two very simple reasons—income to the withdrawal of housing benefit? and fairness. It would add to local authority income flows, although obviously the amount would vary Baroness Hanham: My Lords, with regard to the sharply from place to place. It would be fairer, too. It is very last point, the noble Lord has a very neat habit of not reasonable that a £2 million property, let alone one putting one last question to which nobody has a clue worth £20 million, should be in the same council tax about the answer—and I have to tell him that he has band as a property one-third or even one-tenth of its done it again. If I may, we will write, because it involves value. GC 259 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 260

When we debated the introduction of council tax to that. Having talked to various valuers, including the replace poll tax in the early 1990s—and I remember noble Earl, Lord Lytton, who I am very sorry is not in that well—I assumed, like others taking part in the his place, it does not seem to me that it is essential, debate, that all future Governments would seek regular although it would be desirable. revaluation, at something like every 10 years, with boundary reviews. My Government should have done In a full revaluation, the ratios below and above it but did not do so. As the discrepancy from the 1991 band D—the fulcrum point in the system, in my evaluation has grown wider, it is less and less attractive view—should also be considered. I remind noble Lords to any Government to seek to revalue, even though that if band D is one and band C is eight-ninths of it, they should. Obviously, you hear from the losers and band B is seven-ninths of it and band A six-ninths of not from the winners; as a result, council tax as it—a one-ninth drop for every band below the fulcrum currently structured can be increasingly regressive. point. Above band D, band E is 11-ninths—two-ninths above—band F 13-ninths, band G 15-ninths, and band H The unfairness grows. In Kensington—in W8, for is two. In other words, the ratio of bands A, B and C example—the average property is worth £1.87 million. to band D is one-ninth; above band D it is two-ninths. In Knightsbridge, Chelsea and Notting Hill, the average Of course, the higher bands cover a wider span of is around £1.4 million. In one street in Kensington Palace property values but that still means that larger properties Gardens the average property value is over £22 million. in higher bands have a more generous ratio to band D So up to half of all properties—these figures come from than smaller ones in lower bands. In other words, a the Times, which did not reveal whether they were householder in a band H property will pay a maximum mean or median figures—will be above that figure. of three times the council tax of someone in a band A 3.45 pm property—three times the amount covers the full range in the council tax banding system—although the property Towns in boroughs outside London—Virginia Water, may be worth 10 times as much. I believe that that is Beaconsfield, Cobham, Keston, Esher, Chalfont St Giles unfair. and Richmond and so on in Surrey or Buckinghamshire —have similar valuable property, yet, because the The second point concerns income, and I hope that householders of these properties are paying council my noble friend from Wigan will wish to come in tax on the 1991 valuation, and although the band D on this. In the north-east, half the properties are in levy is therefore low because of the stretch of properties band A and only 3% or 4% are in bands F and G. above band D, householders in London properties on Band H is statistically insignificant in consequence. bands A, B and C are still effectively subsidising the Therefore, the band D levy is usually well above the very wealthy. English average of £1,420 a year. In London, almost When Wales introduced a band I in 2004 as part of the reverse is true. Perhaps 3% or 4% of properties are a full revaluation, about a third of the band H properties in band A and nearly 20% are in bands F, G and H. moved up into band I. In my own authority, Norwich, Consequently, at April 2012 in Westminster and 20 of our 67 band H properties might move up into a Wandsworth the band D level—the fulcrum point—is new higher band. In a Written Question I asked the £685 a year. Hartlepool’s band D stands at £1,671—that Minister what additional revenues this might generate is, 250% higher. Although the property values at the for local government overall, thus affecting the government top have not grown evenly but in some cases have risen equalisation grants, but I was told that that could not exponentially, they are still regarded for council tax be calculated. I have done a back-of-the-envelope purposes as though the increase in the capital value calculation myself, but the Minister argued that he had never occurred. The north and the Midlands have could not calculate it because it would require a full on average between 1,400 and 6,500 band H properties revaluation. I agree that that would be desirable but is in their regions. The east has 12,500, the south-east it essential? I doubt it. In England, there are 132,000 has 34,000 and London has 59,000. In London, of band H properties. If the Wales percentages held and course, the disparities are even more striking. I have a third moved up into band I, that would be 45,000 quoted figures from the Times in evidence. properties paying an additional two-ninths-worth above Every year local valuers value new property. Since and beyond their current levy—that is, bringing in 2002 in England alone, between 120,000 and 170,000 something like £1.5 million. properties have been completed each year. Anything Obviously for most local authorities in the north between those two figures can come on to the market and the Midlands, the income gain would be very depending on the state of housebuilding. Every year modest, but for the rest of the country, including the on resale, when the local authority has sent statutory eastern region, the south-west and the south-east, as information notices about alterations that have received well as London, it could be a useful increment at a planning consent, and so on, to the valuation office, time when we are talking about removing discounts. existing houses are revalued at the point of sale. Substantial In certain London boroughs, the income generated works may push them up a band. Other properties could be fairly substantial and would either allow may be split into flats, or two flats may become one those local authorities to reduce their band D levy to property. A shop may become a house or a new road the gain of lower bands and poorer claimants or allow may be built nearby. There are 195,000 such valuations government to redistribute financial support to other, on average a year because of alterations. Some go up more needy areas of the country. and some go down. It means that valuers in England As I said, the DCLG said that it could not calculate deal with revaluing about 300,000 to 400,000 new the revenues that would result because such a move valuations in England every year both on new properties would require a wholesale revaluation. I challenge and alterations to existing properties. GC 261 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 262

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] has been in the housing market over the past 21 years. This is done all the time, so it would not be very The fact is that the areas she quoted are all in the laborious to visit the much smaller number of band H south and the south-east and have had economic properties in addition to see whether they should be prosperity during that period, which has pushed up placed in the higher band I. The total number of house prices. In other parts of the country economic band H properties is pretty much the same as the prosperity has not been on the same level. House yearly fluctuations now in the valuation loads that prices have gone up for some of that period but in the valuation officers have to respond to. Spread over, say, past two or three years those prices have been going three years the workload would be relatively modest. down in many parts of the country, including my own. Having talked to several valuers, I am assured that it I would clearly therefore be interested in some kind would be perfectly straightforward to do this, given of revaluation. What is missing from my noble friend’s the current fluctuations in the workload. It would amendment, if I may say so, is that it would have such allow at the very least a reduction in the relative levy a huge geographical bias in its outcome that we would for the lower band properties within any billing and have to have a different form of equalisation. Those precepting authority. If it were significant in some areas in the north, the Midlands and so on, which London boroughs, as I think it would be, it could would not benefit from this, would be in a much worse generate resources for redistribution elsewhere in London situation if all we did was to put the amendment to the poorer boroughs or beyond. Of course I would through without following it up with some equalisation. much prefer a full revaluation, but, until that happy day, discussion about a new higher-based band I would Baroness Meacher: My Lords, my concern is about produce income and increase the fairness of what has the people at the bottom of the heap and the changes become a regressive banding system. I beg to move. in council tax benefit. I know that many colleagues who are in this Room also share that concern. I would Lord Shipley: My Lords, I can give some support to be very interested in having the Minister look at what the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady funds might be raised through this amendment and Hollis. Like her, I am not a supporter of local income whether something could then be done about the 10% tax. I prefer council tax, which is essentially a property reduction in council tax benefit. As we know, that tax but indirectly related to income. A local income tax reduction will not affect pensioners and will therefore would primarily be a tax on work, and the case for affect other households incredibly heavily and asset taxation at a local level is strong. If we accept disproportionately. Maybe there is a small possibility that, however, it follows that the real spread of asset here to prevent unbelievable hardship as a result of values needs to be reflected in the council tax banding. this cut to council tax benefit. We would then achieve On the question of a possible band I, the test for me is less regression—both by the changes at the top end whether there would have been a band I had we and by using that money to affect changes at the known in 1991 that property values would change as bottom. I would be grateful if the Minister would they have. Had we known that in 1991, I think that we respond to that. would have had a band I. For that reason and all those identified by the noble Baroness, I am in favour of a Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, like my noble consultation to try to secure a further band. friends Lady Hollis and Lord Smith and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, I am not an advocate or supporter of local income tax. My noble friend Lady Hollis has, Lord Smith of Leigh: My Lords, the Committee as ever, made a challenging case for the introduction may recall that on Second Reading I mentioned of a new band, although her case is, in a sense, seeking revaluation of council tax, which is something that I a process of consultation. My noble friend is aware have raised with Governments of all persuasions. Perhaps that, from this Front Bench, we are not yet able we should be buying a cake as it is the 21st anniversary formally to support that proposition, although I note of the current valuations—which, as my noble friend that she has occasionally trail-blazed an opinion and said, are totally out of date. the party—or otherwise—has caught up with her later. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, that the There is obviously a range of issues here and my noble council tax system is a property tax. Although I support friend Lord Smith instanced some of the wider it in principle, one of the problems with it is that it was ramifications, such as the redistribution of revenues introduced in a rush. It was brought in because there that might come from this. However, I am interested in was such a panic about the poll tax and the need to get the Minister’s response on this and we should recognise rid of it—so anything was better than the poll tax. that there are growing discrepancies and inequities in Because of the rush the valuations were not done the current system, if for no other reason than the properly and a national scale was used. Some of the passage of time. This amendment raises a serious issue. problems that my noble friend mentioned about the difference in values between areas of the country in Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness 1991 were therefore reflecting the fact that, yes, in my for introducing this amendment and the others who authority the vast majority of properties are in band A have spoken. I do not think that she will be entirely and B. Band H is pretty irrelevant to us, and a band I surprised that I am not able to accept her amendment, would probably not be of much help either. That use but I will give the reasons. of a national scale for valuing is the problem. Amendment 93B seeks to create an additional council When my noble friend cited the areas from which tax band in England based on properties with a 1991 substantial benefits would come with this measure it value above £420,000, as the noble Baroness explained, just illustrated to me the further geographical bias there and with a 21 to nine multiplier based on the local GC 263 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 264 band D amount. This Government, like the previous At the heart of this, which the Minister did not Government, have made no plans to change the banding touch on, is that the current bands are based on 1991 structure on which the council tax system is based. We valuations and that, since then, there has not been are absolutely clear that such a change would have even growth. If there had been, nothing would have major implications for local government finance, create changed, because we would be in a zero-sum game, additional bureaucracy and administrative costs and but because of uneven growth, in the south-east and have significant distributional implications, to which I London in particular, property values have raced away shall return. To create a new band, there would have to in comparison to others. There has been a huge increase be a general revaluation, and the Government have in unearned wealth, including that of my house, compared been absolutely clear that there will be no revaluation to other places, which in no sense is making an appropriate in England during the lifetime of this Parliament. and proper contribution to the local economy through Indeed, the coalition Government—I nudge my noble the council tax levy. It is because of that growth of friend Lord Shipley on this—made a clear pledge to unevenness that the consensus around the Room—with Parliament not to undertake a council tax revaluation the obvious exception of the Minister, who might in this Parliament. A revaluation is unnecessary, expensive agree in her heart that this is the right thing to do—is and time-consuming and will lead to higher council that council tax bands no longer fairly reflect property tax bills. values in this country. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and others made 4pm this point, and they were absolutely right. It is worth noting here that Labour’s 2005 council The Minister’s reply was twofold—Scylla and tax revaluation and rebanding in Wales, to which the Charybdis, if you like—that on the one hand it is not noble Baroness referred, which introduced a new council possible to do a full revaluation; and on the other that tax band I, took three years to implement from the you cannot possibly do a partial revaluation. I agree legislation being introduced in November 2002 to the that the first, although desirable, is a major undertaking first tax bills being issued in March 2005. Four times and would need a lot of preparation, but unless we are as many properties moved up one or more bands as going to have 1991 valuations in 2091, at some point moved down, and many jumped up several bands, there will have to be a revaluation. The truth is that the meaning large tax increases. The technical reforms that more frequently you do it, the less acute are the losers the Government are introducing through the Bill will and winners in the equation. My Government were provide authorities with additional flexibility on charges equally to blame—no Government want to tackle it. on empty homes and second homes. These will help to But the point is that it is, bluntly, cowardice to walk ensure that everyone makes a fair contribution to local away from this issue knowing that you could be services. bequeathing an even larger problem to the generation I shall deal with the question of revaluation of one following you, as housing property values continue to band, which I think that the noble Baroness was develop in different proportions to their bands. suggesting. Whatever anyone has said to her, it is almost impossible to assess one group of properties The Minister is worried about full revaluation. In across hundreds of authorities in England. That would an argument against full revaluation, she said that in be complex and difficult. It was hard enough when it Wales there were large movements with properties was done originally, but it would be very difficult to going up several bands. The point here is not the get that done in a way that was fair and comparable—not shock at properties going up several bands—is it not regional banding, which I think the noble Lord, Lord right that they should have done? Is that not right Smith, was veering towards. Anyway, it would require when the value of that property can be such that the major consultation before it was undertaken. The owners of a property have enjoyed to some extent a rigorous assessment of one group of properties could more repressed contribution to council tax than they call into question the validity of those in all other bands. should have made if their property had been fully The noble Baroness is very beguiling, as I know valued from day one? I believe that to be the case. If from numerous occasions, and I admire her industry they are not paying their full share, other people have in going through the research to find the number of to pay more. It falls particularly on properties in the properties, but it is really not easy or something that lower bands A and B; if you do not have enough we have any commitment to do. As for what the noble higher band levies, it means that the band D reduces Baroness, Lady Meacher, said, it would take so long and properties below band D have to pay more to get that it would have no effect on what she is talking the levy in. about at the moment. The Minister went on to say that, given that a full We cannot support this. It is not supported from revaluation is not possible, neither would it be possible the opposition Front Bench and I do not think that it to revalue only within band H. I agree that it is not the will find favour anywhere else in the country, especially most desirable outcome, but I assure her that I have if it involved a further equalisation scheme, as the talked to three separate valuers on this, none of them noble Lord, Lord Smith, suggested that it would. It as far as I know connected to each other, and they all has too many ramifications, and I am therefore unable assured me that it was entirely possible because they to accept the amendment. do it now. The point that I was trying to make was that, particularly if it was phased in over three years, Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I thank the the extra workload in reviewing band H properties Minister for her courteous reply and my noble friends would not be so great. We know where they are; there and others for their support, qualified as it may be. are only 60 in the entire city of Norwich. You could go GC 265 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 266

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] I will not take this any further now. However, in round them in a week, so we are not talking about a answer to the first argument which the noble Baroness major increment in workload here. If you spread the raised—that we cannot have revaluation across the process over three years it would mean revaluing board—I think that at some point some Government 20 properties a year in addition to the properties that will have to have the courage to have those discussions are valued each year because they are new-build and and engage with local government. The longer you put those revalued each year to go up or down because of it off, the worse the problem will be. As for the noble alterations made to them or to the environment. So as Baroness’s second argument—that it cannot be done an addition to the workload it is relatively modest, on a partial basis—that is simply untrue according to though not insignificant. As a practical possibility the evidence available to me, although the Minister they are doing this now with properties scattered will have been advised differently. Her third argument across all the bands all the time. If they can do it to see is that it will come as an unfair and unreasonable shock whether a property in band D should go to band F or to those who are occupying properties worth £5 million, one in band F should go down to band E, and they £10 million or £15 million that they might pay a can do it now with properties scattered across the full further two-ninths a year on their band D council-tax range of bands, they can certainly do it with the bill of perhaps £600. I do not think that that is a valid discrete number of band H properties that there are in argument. None the less, with the support of the most local authorities. So I simply do not accept the Committee, and with my grateful thanks for the discussion Minister’s statement that it could not be done. that we have had, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Baroness Hanham: This is fine as regards revaluations, Amendment 93B withdrawn. but it takes no account at all of the people in the properties. Can you just imagine the number of appeals Clause 14 agreed. that there would be against this form of rebanding? The noble Baroness speaks as if it is just a matter of getting a revaluer to come and say, “We charged that Amendment 94 last year, and this will be all right this year”, and it will Moved by Baroness Meacher go up and down. You cannot do that, because people 94: After Clause 14, insert the following new Clause— who live in the properties are not going to allow a “Enforcement of council tax movement to take place if they do not think it is Councils shall include procedures in their contracts with satisfactory. bailiff companies covering the enforcement of council tax which allows for the return of a warrant by the Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I perfectly accept that bailiffs to the councils for reconsideration when— there may well be appeals to valuations. There are (a) there is a mistake in the decision to issue the warrant in appeals now, which is often why individual properties the first place; are revalued. That is a perfectly proper element of the (b) the warrant was imposed by the local authority before process. But the Minister cannot persuade me that the relevant facts of the case were known; people in band H properties, worth £22 million on (c) the circumstances of the defaulter have changed since average in Kensington Palace Gardens, and on average— the warrant was issued by the local authority; with equal numbers below and above—worth around (d) the defaulter is experiencing financial hardship and is £800,000 in Virginia Water, and so on, are going to be unable to pay the tax; and financially so embarrassed by their council tax going up (e) the circumstances of the defaulter fall within the circumstances by an additional two-ninths over what they pay, given of “vulnerable situations” on page 9 of the National the valuation of those properties. We are not talking Standards for Enforcement Agents issued by the Ministry about pensioners who are eligible for council tax discount of Justice in 2012.” on band C possibly going up to band D. We are talking about the very top and about people who have Baroness Meacher: My Lords, Amendment 94 proposes property worth millions, who will have an income a new clause the aim of which is to protect individuals commensurate with it. I am arguing that they should and families in financial need from having their essential pay their way fairly because otherwise to a degree they belongings, and even their homes, seized by bailiffs are free-riding on the council tax levies of those who executing a warrant for the repayment of debts. Very often, live in lower banded property. of course, those debts are unavoidable. Let us just As for the Minister’s point about the money and think for a moment about the level of income that many where it would go, I do not have a view about that. It of these people are on—I am sure that these income would be a matter for consultation. It could stay levels have been mentioned during Committee days 1 within the individual borough, if that was thought to 5, and I must apologise that I was not able to be appropriate; it could be used for redistribution across with the Committee on those days. However, I think London, going from the wealthier boroughs to the that this amendment is incredibly relevant because of Hackneys or Tower Hamlets. Or it could, as I would the fact that many of these people have so little room for prefer, be taken account of in the equivalent of the manoeuvre as they are on JSA of £71 a week for a equalisation and revenue support grants that go to couple or £54 a week for a single person. It is a tiny local government. That would be the fairest way; in income. that way, some of the gain would go to places like Those of us who were involved in the debates on Wigan or Hartlepool, which are severely hit by the the Welfare Reform Act and appealed to the Government current system because they have to levy much higher not to devolve council tax benefit to local authorities increments on bands A and B as a result. will be well aware of the disproportionate hardship GC 267 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 268 being imposed on households which are already in Perhaps the person became disabled or had to bring financial hardship due to the welfare reforms. I know home a disabled baby with all sorts of costs involved. that that is, in one way, not relevant to this debate. The fifth example in the amendment is if, However, it is incredibly relevant as a context for this “the circumstances of the defaulter fall within the circumstances discussion. of ‘vulnerable situations’ on page 9 of the National Standards for One of the major issues is the cross-cutting costs Enforcement Agents issued by the Ministry of Justice in 2012”. imposed on these very poor households by the I shall come back to that particular point—sideways disconnected policies of the DWP, the MoJ and the perhaps—in due course. DCLG and the ensuing debts which might arise in I want to focus for a minute on the financial hardship relation to these three different departments. These grounds for the return of a warrant. The Zacchaeus debts then generate further costs so that one has not 2000 Trust has provided a very helpful definition of just the debt but the costs associated with the fact that financial hardship, which I think the noble and right one has been unable to pay one’s debt, creating yet reverend Lord, Lord Harries, will refer to in order to further debts and leaving those households spiralling have the definition on the record of the House. In my down to a point where they just cannot get themselves view, laws, regulations and guidance issued by any out of that rather deep hole. government department should take account of that One has only to think about the sorts of results we definition. Our position is that the Wednesbury principles will see following implementation of the Welfare Reform must be applied in connection with executions of Act. A household might be in a flat that is deemed too warrants in relation to council tax and of course in large or too expensive to receive full housing benefit. relation to these other departments too. As your Lordships Perhaps the household will learn of this a little late or know, the Wednesbury principles require that a decision- it will take them time to move to a cheaper, smaller making body must act reasonably. I do not think that flat, during which time the debts will mount. That is any of us can disagree with that. If a local authority why I raise the point about levels of income. You just issues a warrant to seize the assets of a household do not have any room for the debts mounting up as a which is in financial hardship and which cannot pay a result of these changes over which people have no debt, that local authority will be acting in a Wednesbury control, and yet these changes have the most incredibly unreasonable way or contrary to the Wednesbury disproportionate impact on these people. Just imagine principles. what would happen if you lost a piece of your rent and These matters have been raised with the DWP and you had to take it—perhaps £8 a week—out of your the MoJ, and Ministers have taken on board their £54. I cannot imagine living on £54 a week for housing importance. Perhaps I may quote the Minister, the benefit and all the other bits and pieces you get. As for noble Lord, Lord Freud, who at the Report stage of the idea that you then lose a bit of that as well the Welfare Reform Bill on 25 January endorsed the because you are in the wrong flat and have to move, importance of jobcentre decision-makers getting the what about the costs of moving and all the rest of it? It facts of financial hardship right. He concluded: is unthinkable that these people will be able to cope “Decision-makers clearly have a general duty under public law at all. to make decisions in accordance with the Wednesbury principles”.— [Official Report, 25/1/12; col. 1062.] 4.15 pm All we are doing here is to try to get these principles The amendment was drafted by the Reverend Paul spread across the departments involved in these very Nicholson, and I am very pleased that he is here today. sensitive matters. I think that we owe him a debt of gratitude for all the Peers, supported by the Reverend Paul Nicholson work that he does with these incredibly financially pressed and the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust, raised the importance households. The amendment sets out the circumstances of the Wednesbury principles during the passage of which would give rise to a warrant being returned to a the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders council. They include, for example, where, Bill. Again, the Government accepted the principle “the warrant was imposed by the local authority before the of the relevant amendment, enabling bailiffs to relevant facts … were known”. return to the courts for reconsideration warrants for Can noble Lords imagine a warrant being issued and disproportionate fines of people in financial hardship. somebody’s furniture being taken away when the authority The Government tabled their own amendment in response simply did not have the information it needed? A to the original amendment inspired by the Reverend further possibility is, as I have said, that, Paul Nicholson, and on Report on the LASPO Bill the “the defaulter is experiencing financial hardship”, noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said: and simply does not have the wherewithal to pay the “In practice … when bailiffs come across hardship as defined debt. Three other relevant circumstances are referred in the guidance they should not execute the warrant”, to in the amendment and I am going to mention them but should return it to the court. She also referred to because it seems to me so obvious that warrants should issues reiterated in Amendment 94 to this Bill. For be returned in these circumstances. For example, if, example, she said: “there is a mistake in the decision to issue the warrant in the first “If … the fine was imposed because the full facts were not place”, made clear to the court, or they had changed, the provision in the how on earth can that warrant not be returned to the Bill could apply”.—[Official Report, 20/3/12; col. 800.]. local authority? Another is that, Again, all the items listed in our amendment are “the circumstances of the defaulter have changed since the warrant very important. If they are not applied, that suggests was issued”. that a decision is likely to be Wednesbury unreasonable. GC 269 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 270

[BARONESS MEACHER] and, ideally, will bring back a government amendment I hope that your Lordships will focus, in particular, on reflecting the key points of this one at Report. I beg to the paragraph referring to financial hardship, although move. to say that one is more important than the other is, frankly, somewhat difficult to do. Lord Harries of Pentregarth: My Lords, in adding As someone who has worked in mental health my name to the amendment, I fully support everything services for about a quarter of a century, I want to that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, said, and I do mention one case which illustrates the appalling distress not intend to repeat a single word of her speech. that can be caused by debts which are absolutely not I simply draw attention to subsection (d), which the fault of the claimant and the mental health states that, consequences that can ensue. “the defaulter is experiencing financial hardship and is unable to A lone father, who I will refer to as Jo, aged 40, pay the tax”. reared three boys while receiving unemployment benefit. Obviously, that raises the question: what is meant by He had no job for 20 years and was desperate to work. financial hardship and how do you define it? Are there Finally, he got a job for £10 an hour. At first, the any indicators? council said that he could keep his housing and council As has the noble Baroness, I draw attention to the tax benefits, but then it decided that it had made a work of the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust, which has worked mistake and debited his rent and council tax accounts for more than 40 years with benefit claimants and the by £2,000. He is threatened with eviction and the most vulnerable people in society, and some recent bailiffs are sent in. To make matters worse, Her Majesty’s research by Brighton University on indicators which Revenue and Customs gives Jo £2,000 in tax credits the three departments could use. Of course, people and then realises that it has made a mistake and seeks will say that they are not very precise, but we believe the return of the payment. Jo then has a nervous that they are the best that can be done, emerging from breakdown. Who would not? I would. He is committed people with real experience of what financial hardship to hospital for three weeks. I worked out that that means. Those people have put forward eight indicators must cost about £6,600. He loses his job and is back which, I should point out, make no distinction between on benefits. How many more thousands of pounds disabled and non-disabled because both suffer financial does that cost? Jo slips into overdraft and the bank is hardship. after him for immediate payment of £854. All those sums must seem like cloud-cuckoo-land to someone First, hardship happens whenever incomes in work on such a tiny income. or unemployment are too low to cover necessary expenditure; and when such circumstances are beyond Thankfully, Jo had the support of the Zacchaeus the control of its victims, it impacts with great severity Trust and is now back on his feet, but anyone who did on both the disabled and the not disabled. Secondly, not have a huge amount of support would just go in necessary minimum expenditure includes food, fuel, and out of hospital and be in our mental health water, clothing, transport, some personal necessities, services for many years. The children would be in care. rent, council tax, fines, insurance and pensions. Too The costs are unimaginable. If I may say so, the noble often, as we know, choices have to be made between Baroness really needs to take this issue away and think paying the rent, heating or eating. about it. Also, the authorities will have breached the Wednesbury principles and be open to judicial review. Thirdly, necessary expenditure is increased by debts that include fines, courts, bailiff costs, liability order Our amendment, along the same principles accepted costs for council tax, payments of court orders, debt by the DWP and the MoJ, is intended to ensure a collectors, bank charges, the high interest to doorstep common understanding of financial hardship in the pay-day lenders and loan sharks, DWP overpayments, three departments creating the debts. We also want a sanctions, civil penalties, caps and cuts. As your Lordships common enforcement procedure for council tax arrears, can see, there is quite a long list of possible debts that fines, court and bailiff costs and debts owed to the people at the bottom of the pile can incur before they DWP which will take account of the separate onslaught know where they are. Fourthly, debts occur due to the of the three departments on vulnerable individuals innocent mistakes of both welfare claimants and officials attempting to survive against the leviathan. The in the delivery of welfare. People then borrow to eat or Government should reflect on the unrest caused by to pay bills or pay off other debts. A visit to a food the poll tax in the 1990s. We are in similarly poverty- bank is obvious evidence of hardship. stricken times today, and we need to be very careful Fifthly, circumstances beyond the control of welfare not to repeat the same mistakes made then. claimants that lead to hardship include unexpected I end with a quotation from the guidance on National illness, divorce or separation from a partner who leaves Standards for Enforcement Agents, published by the when debts have not been paid, a serious accident in Lord Chancellor’s Department in April 2002: the family, a bereavement and funeral costs, a pay cut, “Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise redundancy and unemployment, flooding, and any that they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and accidents or theft for which the payments cannot socially excluded are protected and that the recovery process afford insurance. Sixthly, hardship leads to an inability includes procedures agreed between the agent/agency and creditor to communicate with the authorities, courts and creditors, about how such situations should be dealt with”. due to the lack of a landline phone and dependence on Similar guidance is needed across the three departments pay-as-you-go mobiles that run out of money when involved in debt collection. I sincerely hope that the claimants run out of money—normally, on the basis Minister will accept the principles of the amendment of their experience, once a week. GC 271 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 272

Seventhly, as the noble Baroness pointed out, there more than 6%—some 1.4 million—were passed on to are some very heart-rending cases of people running bailiffs for enforcement. In some cases, this enforcement into huge debts because of mental health problems, or is done in-house by bailiffs employed directly, but of such problems occurring because of all sorts of generally cases are passed by local authorities to private misunderstanding about the debt. The Royal College bailiff firms which make their income mainly from the of Psychiatrists reports that 50% of people in debt fees they are able to charge households that have fallen have mental health problems. The figure is 50%, so, to behind with council tax. In some cases, bailiff fees can put it the other way round, 25% of people with a substantially increase the size of the debt—a double diagnosed mental health condition are in debt. Those whammy for struggling households. are startling figures. We quite understand that we need a system of The last indicator is that hardship exacerbates the council tax enforcement that is effective, but it must risks of low birth-weight babies being born to women also be fair. Problems with the practices of private who are unable to afford a healthy diet before they bailiff firms collecting council tax and other debts conceive and while they are pregnant. As we know, the have been a matter of public concern for some time. In £71 a week jobseeker’s allowance is much too low to 2000, Citizens Advice published a report highlighting live on and, based on all sorts of very sound research, the often serious problems that CAB clients experience low birth-weight associated with foetal growth restriction with the conduct of private bailiff firms. In 2003 the is the strongest predictor of poor learning ability, then Government published a White Paper on effective school performance, behavioural disorders and crime. civil enforcement that also recognised the problems Fraud is another area that results in hardship but I with private bailiffs and highlighted, have not covered it because it is deliberate and should “overwhelming support for increased regulation”, be rooted out. The circumstances of hardship that I of the private bailiff sector and concluded that, have described happen because they are beyond the control “the indiscriminate or inappropriate use of distress is unacceptable: of the victims. The purpose of describing these hardships, many debtors are in vulnerable situations and some simply cannot based upon the long experience of people working closely afford to pay”. with those who are most vulnerable at the bottom of Sadly, that remains the position today. We, like society—that is, welfare claimants and others on very other debt advice charities, continue to see cases where low incomes—is to put them forward to assist the people in severe financial difficulties are suffering three departments involved in the hope that they might additional stress and hardship as a result of unfair and come together when drafting relevant laws, regulations aggressive and sometimes illegal practices by private and guidance and use some of these eight indicators to bailiffs. What has happened to the coalition agreement help them in that important task. commitment to, “provide more protection against aggressive bailiffs”? Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I declare The recent Ministry of Justice consultation, an interest as the chair of the Consumer Credit Transforming Bailiff Action, addressed this issue, but it Counselling Service, the national debt advice charity is far from clear that the policy proposals developed that has helped over 1 million people with unmanageable by the Ministry of Justice will do the job that the debt problems in the past few years. I strongly support Government need to do here. First, the Government this amendment, which provides a simple solution to a reissued the voluntary National Standards for Enforcement long-standing problem: how to ensure that financially Agents in January. In doing so, the Minister, Jonathan vulnerable people struggling to pay council tax arrears Djanogly, set out his determination to, do not suffer undue costs, worry and hardship as a “bring an end to the rogue behaviour that can make people’s lives result of bailiff action to recover those arrears. Nearly a misery”. 9% of those who received phone or online counselling from our charity this year had a council tax debt, That statement of intent is welcome and the National which is up from 7% last year. For many of them, Standards for Enforcement Agents document contains problems in paying council tax were part of a complicated some important points, not least the need for bailiffs and serious multiple debt problem. Our median user to go back to the creditor where the debtor appears to owes just over £17,000 to seven different creditors, be in one of the vulnerable situations mentioned in including credit cards, personal loans and overdrafts. this amendment. These standards are not new; they were originally published in 2002 and the reissued These are hard times. All the experience that our version adds no new protections. It is clear that these charity has in giving debt advice shows that people voluntary standards have not been effective in preventing facing severe financial difficulties need help and support bad practice by bailiffs over the past 10 years, so there to get their household finances back under control. is no reason to believe that the reissued version will do We think that everybody who gets into debt should any better now. repay their borrowings over time. We are not into debt forgiveness, but with support they can get themselves The second pillar rests on implementing the reform out of debt and back into a good relationship with and consolidation of existing bailiff law set out in the credit. Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. The recent Ministry of Justice consultation included draft regulations that were on the whole welcomed by debt 4.30 pm advice charities as a step forward. This included an The current enforcement regime for council tax important statement that the Government would not does very little to help. Of the 24 million or so council be seeking to further extend powers of forcible entry tax accounts raised by local authorities in 2010-11, at this time. The regulations also provide that bailiffs GC 273 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 274

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] repayment terms, a process which, after all, is used should not enter premises or take control of goods routinely by debt charities in all other sectors and where only a child or vulnerable person is present. The which works. draft regulations would certainly help here, provided The last point is, perhaps, crucial to understanding that the definition of vulnerable is not so narrow as to the problems that people in financial difficulties have vitiate the whole initiative. If the Government would with private bailiffs collecting council tax and other include financial vulnerability in the definition of debts. Consider, by way of contrast, the situation in vulnerable persons, it would offer more support and which a person with a county court judgment faces protection to people facing hardship, serious debt bailiff action to enforce that debt. They can make a problems or both. relatively straightforward application to the county Thirdly, there is the creation of a new fee structure court to have their warrant suspended on payment that would apply to council tax and other debts enforced terms or stayed where they are unable to make any by private bailiffs. It is argued that the current fee payment at the discretion of the court. Financially structure is too complex and provides unscrupulous vulnerable people have no such right to ask for the bailiffs with the opportunity to charge excessive and protection of the court when they are facing bailiff illegal fees. The experience of some of our clients action in respect of council tax debts. Citizens Advice certainly confirms this as a problem. While the new fee has reported a number of examples of progressive-minded structure will certainly be clearer it does not fully councils which work with debt advice agencies and remove incentives for bailiffs to escalate enforcement take accounts back from bailiffs when it is clearly right and may actually result in some vulnerable households to do so. There is nothing in the current law or the facing higher bailiff fees for council tax debt in some package of reforms proposed by the MoJ that can circumstances. The missing part of this jigsaw is oversight. compel a local authority to stop bailiff action in these There is no single body tasked and empowered to circumstances. ensure that both individual firms and bailiffs behave I urge the Government to look at the package of in the right way across the piece. bailiff reforms again and consider how debt advice The fourth pillar needing reform is the current can be placed at the centre as a key component of the certification system for private bailiffs. This is a court-based protection that should be available for financially licensing system that is supposed to provide the oversight vulnerable households. It is time to make a step change of bailiffs who enforce council tax and other debts. in the help and support available for people who However, the Government’s recognition of ongoing struggle with unmanageable debt. This is why the conduct issues already highlights how the existing amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, certification system has failed to get to grips with is so important. It addresses a key problem in a very long-standing problems in this sector. straightforward way. The amendment will not deal with all the problems with private bailiffs, but it will The Government have not yet set out detailed plans make a difference. On that basis I strongly urge the for these reforms and there is a genuine concern that Government to consider accepting it. tinkering with a failed system will only result in further failures. Indeed, in this respect, oversight of the private bailiff sector is a very long way indeed behind the Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, I want to take this closely related activity of debt collection. Debt collection opportunity to ask the Minister a question. I do not firms acting to recover consumer credit agreements want to add to the very important issues outlined by are currently required to hold a consumer credit licence the noble Lords, but I am prompted by the speech of issued by the Office of Fair Trading. Indeed, the the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, to ask what is happening Financial Services Bill currently passing through your to ensure that advice agencies are able to give the Lordships’ House proposes to strengthen consumer appropriate advice to people who may find themselves protection by bringing debt collection into the FiSMA in the kind of debt described in this amendment to regime. Private bailiffs have more power than debt make sure that they avoid having enforcement action collectors and bad practice by bailiffs can cause more taken against them, or to get advice in dealing with it serious detriment to financially vulnerable households. if it does happen. I am very conscious that there have The Government are not currently addressing the been cuts to advice agencies nationally and locally and need to strengthen oversight. This seems a glaring that social welfare law has been taken out of the scope inconsistency and raises questions as to whether the of legal aid in its entirety. Given that and the speed level of protection being proposed will be adequate. with which this change is being introduced at the same time that the entire benefit system for working-age So, in essence, our concern is that the Government’s people is facing a revolution, what steps has the current proposals will not deal adequately with the department taken to satisfy itself that advice agencies three fundamental issues that underpin problems with will be up to speed in time and will be sufficiently the private bailiff sector. These are: that the balance of resourced to enable them to advise clients to make incentives is not yet sufficiently weighted to promote sure either that they do not face enforcement action or good behaviour and sensible decisions on the ground; that they have somewhere to go for advice if it is that the lack of independent oversight allows too applied to them wrongly? much space for bad practice to continue and puts too much emphasis on consumer complaints as a main driver in change; and that there is no procedure available Baroness Hollis of Heigham: To reinforce my noble to ensure that people in financial difficulties can stop friend’s point about advice agencies, my local Norwich enforcement action by agreeing affordable and sustainable CAB, whose income for the current year will be £1 million, GC 275 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 276 will find a fall of £400,000, down to £600,000 next and often, unfortunately, their having an unsatisfactory year, because every penny of the £400,000 it gets from experience in the care system. This is one group within the Lord Chancellor’s department is being withdrawn. the groups we are discussing to which we should pay As a result, people are not going to be able to use its particular attention. services, staff will be laid off and the very issues that I would be grateful for clarification about the experience my noble friend has raised will impact on those who of care leavers. In the All-Party Parliamentary Group most need help. for Looked After Children and Care Leavers, I have certainly heard of young care leavers describing their Lord Best: My Lords, sadly, I have to accept that difficulties in trying to manage their finances on leaving there are cases where local authorities have acted in an care, with their homes eventually breaking down and insensitive and inept manner in using bailiffs to pursue all sorts of adverse consequences arising from that. I the debts of vulnerable people who owe council tax. support the amendment and I am grateful to the However, I fear that local authorities are the victims Zacchaeus 2000 Trust for drawing my attention to this too. They have no desire to be sending bailiffs to issue. I look forward to the Minister’s response. hound poor people to pay their debts. The very worst aspect of this Bill is the expectation Lord Smith of Leigh: My Lords, noble Lords are that councils will have to start collecting council tax absolutely right that poverty is on the increase. I from the very poorest households—the 20% or so of talked to someone from my local advice agency who those of working age. They will be asked to find the told me how in the past month the number of cases money from their extremely low incomes, which have that he had been dealing with had gone up significantly. been provided mostly through benefit for other essential One of the growth industries in my area is payday expenditure. The Bill means that councils are bound lending. There are increasing numbers of lenders and to face more arrears and more wasted expenditure in people relying on them. Unfortunately, while the use trying to extract small sums from poverty-struck people of bailiffs by local authorities is regrettable it is unavoidable who simply do not have the money to pay. It is no fun and necessary on some occasions. We need to make for local authorities to be sending in the bailiffs when sure that we use them sensitively. As a result of this they feel that they must pursue these debts. legislation, however, there will be more need to use I support this amendment to protect vulnerable bailiffs because we are putting a tax back on to those households from the heavy-handed action of unscrupulous who are least able to pay. bailiffs and I am grateful to the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust I remind noble Lords, as I do on any occasion I can, for bringing these matters to our attention today. that the nearest we had to this was in the poll tax era: However, the solution to the problem of these cases we were putting a tax on the lowest paid then. There growing in number is to allow councils to avoid having were two elements to the campaign against it. There to start taxing the poorest by giving councils the was a “Can’t Pay, Won’t Pay” campaign, which was flexibility to raise the funds required by the Treasury reflective of the reaction to it, and we got into a in other ways—for example, as I suggested last week, downward spiral where people were unable to pay. The through the painless reduction of the single person cost to local authorities of collecting the poll tax was discount from 25% to 20%, on average. Councils are rising all the time and less money was coming in. There victims in this matter too. was greater use of the courts and bailiffs at that time, which was a good income for the courts and probably The Earl of Listowel: I support the amendment and for bailiffs but not very good for local communities. I raise a particular concern about care leavers and Noble Lords may recall that the consequences were care-experienced adults who might be impacted by that pensioners were jailed in certain parts of the this. Of course, many care-experienced adults will be country because they had not paid the poll tax. The public in this group of the very poor who have had poor reaction that followed meant that we lost the legislation. educational experience and may have experienced long- term unemployment. The Committee has heard about 4.45 pm parents and families struggling to survive and not As the noble Lord, Lord Best, said, local authorities functioning very well. Statistics show that if one has are in a dilemma because it is up to us to maximise our been brought up in care and becomes a mother, one is collections. If we do not, the costs of that are not far more likely to have one’s own child taken into care. neutral: they go on to services. Many of the services I am worried that this is an additional burden on that local authorities provide are needed by the poorest particularly vulnerable families that is unwelcome. members of the community, so in that sense we have a I understand that care leavers will be assisted to the dilemma. We are pursuing them for money that they age of 22 with regard to council benefit—I may have cannot easily pay and, at the same time, reducing that wrong and would be grateful for any correction in services that they greatly need. that area—but one has to keep in mind that while Two really important things come out of this to me, most young people leave home at the age of 24 nowadays, as a local councillor. First, councils need to get the 20% of care leavers will have left care at the age of 16. assessments accurate first time. Maybe we should make The statistics for the mental health of young people in it a requirement of the Bill to ensure that it is done care highlights that 40% have mental disorders, which properly, because clearly it can have terrible consequences compares with what may be 10% of young people in on people if it is wrong. The second is to give proper the general population. That is what one would expect welfare advice. It is incumbent on councils to fund because of the history of trauma before they enter welfare advice. One of the services that I have kept care, the experience of being taken from their families going is welfare advice because it is needed more and GC 277 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 278

[LORD SMITH OF LEIGH] Baroness Hollis of Heigham: What the noble Lord more. We have kept the funding to our local agency is saying is important. As we are in Committee, can he and it is doing a very good job. We are also funding give the Committee any detailed information of the more credit unions to help people get out of the actual cost to a local authority and the alternative financial mess that the noble and right reverend Lord, charge given in addition to the debt to be recovered Lord Harries, mentioned. To avoid the consequences from the individual, so that we have some evidence of the poll tax era and the subsequent rejection of the that local authorities are to some extent profiteering legislation, we need to consider this kind of amendment from their bailiff actions? very seriously. Lord Lucas: My Lords, is the process of getting a Lord Lucas: My Lords, I find myself in happy liability order, which costs £100, really 10 hours’ work agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of for somebody? That is ridiculous. It is something that Balmacara. People should pay their debts, and I imagine is done in bulk; the requests are sent to the magistrates’ that the Minister will join me in looking at things that court in bulk and signed off in bulk. Doubtless the way too. It is a good basis for looking at this amendment. council can argue that there are associated costs, but if However, I support the amendment, particularly because it is spending £100 a time on these things it is being of my view of what local authorities are getting up to. grossly inefficient. It should be able to do the business for £20 a head; that would be a fair estimate of what it Baroness Meacher: Where errors have been made should cost a council, if run well, to get a liability by officials, most particularly, it is completely immoral order, rather than the £100 that they charge. There is to turn on the recipient family, couple or individual nothing that I am aware of in the legislation requiring and expect them to deal with what can be an enormous them to be slower about it than that, but because there debt, about which they have no knowledge whatever. is no statutory limit on these things it has become a It is not their fault. We need to be careful about practice to charge a large amount. saying that in all circumstances people should pay The other destructive thing that councils are doing their debts. is that when somebody falls behind for a month or two with council tax payments, they say that they will not accept instalment payments any more—the whole lot Lord Lucas: My Lords, I think that the noble is due. That is daft. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, Baroness misunderstands me. I was picking up on was saying, the right way in which to deal with these what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said and the things is to agree proper staged payments. To withdraw way in which he described that this should be done. I that and put the debtor through the whole business of am not trying to address myself to the particular bailiffs and additional charges, in order to come out at circumstances of that part of the amendment. I support the other end with some kind of agreed staged payment, the amendment, by and large, but I am looking at it is ridiculous. It is a great injustice to the person who from this point of view: when I read this, I see an has fallen behind with paying the council tax, particularly instrument for getting local authorities to behave better if they find themselves in positions of hardship rather than they do and to pay more attention to their duty than just forgetfulness. of care to the people to whom they are charging council tax. Councils should be taking a more sensible and rational attitude to this. They should look at the About 3 million liability orders are issued in respect citizens who they have charge of and say that if those of council tax each year. Councils charge an average people are in difficulty, they will work with the sort of of about £100 a time for this, which is £300 million a organisations that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, year that councils are charging for liability orders. represents to enable them to pay their bills over a This charge is supposed to be based on the cost to sensible period or to otherwise get out of the difficulties councils of getting the liability orders and the magistrates’ in which they find themselves. It should not be necessary court orders together. It is totally out of proportion to immediately—without question and without thinking—to that cost. It is high time that the Government did a go to the bailiffs. I can encourage the noble Lord, little audit to check out what one or two councils are Lord Stevenson, because I think that we will get bailiff charging and to see whether those costs are real. legislation and reform. I saw the Minister a few days It is no good, particularly when you are looking at ago and have committed to give a half-hour speech on charging money to people who often do not have it, to the subject in November. I am seriously optimistic proceed in the same way as councils do with motorists: that I will have something to say when we get there, we all know that those charges have nothing to do but it has been a long road. I quite agree with the with the costs of providing services, that they are noble Lord. completely out of proportion and that the councils are However, councils are the employers of bailiffs and running them as a profit centre. I gather from the it is terribly important that when they employ them hornets’ nest that the Royal Borough of Kensington they have a care for the people whose— and Chelsea continues to do that, which is certainly my experience from being on the wrong end of their fines. Parking has become a major profit centre for Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Nobody wants to see some boroughs, and I can understand why they consider bad practice, but I have not experienced councils that people who have cars have money to be got. behaving in that way in my time as a local councillor. However, that should not be their attitude to those Using bailiffs was the last, not the first, thing you did. who find themselves unable to pay council tax. I am perfectly willing to believe that there may be bad GC 279 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 280 councils in this field or that one or two cases may be Lord Tope: My Lords, I am very pleased that the badly handled. Obviously, that may well be the case. If noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, and the noble Lord, there has been impropriety in that way at all it should Lord Smith, have intervened here because I was growing obviously be remedied, but I hope that if the noble increasingly concerned that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, Lord is coming back with that argument he will back seemed to be suggesting that all councils act in this it up with some information and not just broad assertions way. They do not. It is not in their own interests to do about how local authorities behave. I do not recognise it that way and it simply does not happen. I think we his description of that. Certainly, before I sent in any can all accept that mistakes are made and that things bailiffs we would have gone through hoops to see happen that probably should not. Sometimes, mistakes whether we could have gradual repayments or otherwise are made but they are usually at official level because help those people through their hardship, perhaps by it is the officials who deal with these issues. Sometimes getting them into a debt counselling agency. To send in the reason is poor communication, on both sides, but bailiffs and make that person homeless is the last thing to suggest that sending in the bailiffs is the first action that a housing authority wants, because then it would of any local authority is, frankly, nonsense. It is almost have to send them toaBandB. always—and certainly should be—the very last action. Let us remind ourselves that local authorities have a fiduciary duty in respect of all their taxpayers to try Lord Lucas: My Lords, my experience of this comes to recover debts that are legitimately owed to them. entirely from the bailiff end of things and in particular They have been put under even greater pressure in from the complaints that people make when the bailiffs recent years by central government and the amount of come through. The complaints are not necessarily attention that is paid to reports from the Audit about the bailiffs but about the process that has led to Commission on council tax collection rates. We have them finding the bailiffs at the door. The level of touched on that a few times in this Committee and on liability or of the charges is a matter of public record, the expectation, which is reasonable, that collection as is their volume. The policy of councils to make the rates will fall as a result of the legislation that we are whole debt due immediately if there is a failure over a debating. However, to suggest that the use of bailiffs is couple of months to pay instalments is there on council a first resort by most, or possibly all, local authorities websites. Both of them are fundamental injustices. is simply not the case. Like others, I should be interested The council may be good-hearted in the way that it to hear of substantiated cases of bad practice. I am deals with things. I do not have data on which councils sure that they occur but I doubt that they occur quite are good or bad; I am merely looking at the overall as often as we might read in certain national newspapers. practice, and I am conscious of the level of complaint I am quite certain that they are the exception. and anguish that reaches those who deal with complaints against bailiffs, which is where my understanding comes I had wanted to start by saying how grateful I am to from. the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, for moving this amendment. I am not certain that the amendment However, coming back to the basic figures, if you needs to be made to the Bill but we certainly needed it charge £100 for a liability order, it seems to me that in order to have this very important debate. When the you are grossly overcharging, and if you say on your Minister responds in a minute, I am sure she will agree website, as councils do, that if you miss a couple of with that, but I also hope that at the very least she will payments the whole lot is due, that is a fundamentally agree to take back the issue and consider how it can be mistaken way to deal with debt. I therefore like this best addressed, whether through legislation or through amendment because I read it as putting some of the action that is already under way. Nevertheless, it is an onus back on councils, which is where it should be. important issue.

Lord Smith of Leigh: I thank the noble Lord for 5pm setting that out. However, I really cannot accept the During Second Reading, I expressed concern about two points that he is making, certainly as they apply to the cumulative impact not just of this legislation but my council. First, the cost may well be averaging of all the measures that have been taking place through £100 but that is because of the care that local authorities welfare reform and other legislation, as well as what is take in individual cases. They are not simply sending happening as a result of the economic crisis generally. huge numbers of debts to courts or getting orders. I wonder what authoritative work is being done, whether Each case has to be looked at properly to make sure inside or outside government, to try to assess what is of it. going to be—I say “going to be” because the worst is The noble Lord’s second point is, in a sense, a yet to come—the cumulative impact on the poorer misunderstanding. Essentially, there is a contract between members of our society. This measure, we know, will a local resident and the council to pay the council tax. add to that impact. The council says it will withdraw that contract only if One of the many important points to have been the payment has not been received and the resident made is that people who find themselves in such a has not informed the council of a change in their position should have early and easy access to, and circumstances. If residents come back to councils— should be encouraged to access, the best debt advice. certainly to mine—to explain their circumstances, we In my experience, local authorities will be only too negotiate a new form of payment. If we did not have keen to encourage that and to try to support people that provision, people would simply not inform the and families who find themselves in that position— council and they would not pay on time—and the certainly, to a degree, by arranging payments by instalment costs would be even higher than they are. or by whatever means is possible over whatever period GC 281 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 282

[LORD TOPE] This amendment focuses on the enforcement is appropriate. However, we also know from experience procedures, particularly the relationships between bailiffs of debt collection that leaving the matter only makes it and councils, and it calls on contractual arrangements worse. Early action—by which I mean early supportive between bailiff companies to allow—why not require?— and sympathetic action—is absolutely essential in effective the bailiffs to return a warrant to the council for debt collection, not just for the local authority, which reconsideration when certain circumstances arise. We has its fiduciary duty, but perhaps even more importantly support the thrust of the amendment. I do not know for those who incur the debts. whether we need to unpick some legal issues here in We all accept that local authorities make mistakes, order to differentiate between bailiffs appointed by the for whatever reason. Of course there will be instances, court and enforcement agents acting under contract to alluded to in the amendment, when there is no debt at the local authority—that is, whether the return and all because a mistake has been made. I want to believe possible amendment of the warrant is just an issue that what is set out in the amendment is what happens between the council and the agent. Doubtless the already with the vast majority of—I hope, all—local Minister will be able to help us on that. authorities, but I am sure that the noble Baroness who We have all heard horror stories about the actions moved the amendment knows of many occasions when of some bailiffs towards vulnerable people, including that has not occurred. However, this best practice the very poignant case explained by the noble Baroness, should certainly be adopted by all local authorities. Lady Meacher. In the National Standards for Enforcement Whether or not it is set out in legislation, it is certainly Agents there seems to be no problem in setting out who the practice that should be followed in the best interests is considered to be vulnerable; perhaps the Lord not only of the local authorities but of those who find Chancellor’s Department will be able to assist the themselves in financial difficulties, particularly through DCLG in this regard. I am sure that we all find some no fault of their own and more particularly when no of the instances we have heard about completely debt has been incurred because a mistake has been unacceptable. The amendment refers to the National made within the local authority. Therefore, I very Standards for Enforcement Agents, a document issued much welcome the amendment and the debate that it by the Ministry of Justice, but, as my noble friend said, has enabled us to have. it is really just a rerun of something that happened in 2002 and the problem is that it is not mandatory. I Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we support the wonder whether we should at least require all local amendment. It seems that our debate has had various authorities to contract only with those who explicitly strands to it, including the issue of governance for bailiffs. adhere to those standards, although they may not be My noble friend Lord Stevenson talked about the binding. three fundamentals that are missing—the balance of The standards explicitly refer to vulnerable situations incentives, no independent oversight and no process requiring enforcement agents and creditors—the councils for those in financial difficulties. Part of that theme is —to recognise that they each have a role in ensuring the need to support people who get into debt and to that the vulnerable and socially excluded are protected help them to make their payments, as well as the and that the recovery process includes procedures importance of effective advice being at hand. With agreed between the agent and the creditor about how regard to the challenges that are being felt now, my such situations are dealt with. The document states: noble friend Lady Hollis instanced what is happening “The appropriate use of discretion is essential in every case and to the CAB in her area, and my noble friend Lady no amount of guidance could cover every situation, therefore the Sherlock asked the Minister about the assessment that agent has a duty to contact the creditor and report the circumstances is being made of available support. in situations where there is … a potential cause for concern”. However, one strong strand has been the importance That is the essence of what this amendment seeks to of this issue, because it focuses on dealing with poverty. achieve, but there is also an issue about how councils As the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said, everything that is play their part and this is also implicit in the amendment. going on—the economic situation that the country We have discussed council tax support schemes. In and much of the world faces, as well as specific policies, many cases, the cut in support for schemes, effectively including those that we are debating in this Bill—has a of the order of 20%, will leave poor people having to cumulative effect on people. We heard from the noble pay council tax when they were previously exempt. Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble and right Even a few pounds a week could push those existing at reverend Lord, Lord Harries, about financial hardship the margins over the edge, especially when coupled and why it is of increasing importance in the circumstances with the other cuts that they have to endure. Given the in which we find ourselves. reminder that local authorities have had from central The noble Lord, Lord Best, made the point that in government about their responsibilities regarding equalities some ways local authorities are victims of the current duties, homelessness provisions and the Child Poverty circumstances. They have to deal with the effects of Act, this places a special onus on local authorities to this Bill and other legislation, particularly cuts in ensure that life is not made even more intolerable by council tax benefit or support. We know and have insensitive and inappropriate enforcement processes. debated the consequences of that. I recognise the hand We welcome the content of these amendments. of the Reverend Nicolson and the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust in all this, and he should be congratulated on his Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the noble continued efforts. As a Minister, I always shuddered at Baroness for introducing this amendment. There has been bit when a briefing came through from the Reverend wide discussion, as I rather expected, and I acknowledge Nicolson; I still do. the part played by the trust of the Reverend Paul Nicolson GC 283 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 284 and the work it does in support of people who end up However, whether enforcement action is justified is in serious debt. I also note what has been said about a matter for local authorities and, finally, the courts, many people in serious debt having mental health issues. having taken account of all the relevant information I agree that these are all matters that ought to be taken on a case-by-case basis. Of course it is the local into account by local authorities, and doing so is very authority’s responsibility to ensure that it is taken only much part of their work. As for the advice agencies, after all the procedures and all efforts have been made the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, will know that this to have the matter dealt with in another way. is a matter for local authorities. The funding, apart Although the Government have no plans to make from the Lord Chancellor’s funding, by and large changes to the enforcement regime for council tax, comes from local authorities and therefore it is in their which is what we are talking about in particular, as my own interest to ensure that people have proper advice. noble friend Lord Lucas mentioned, we are looking at The discussion, as I would have expected, has gone bailiff reform. There is a wide perception across the widely into the problems that bring in bailiffs, but it is country and across government that it is not working the bailiffs on whom we are concentrating today. That absolutely brilliantly. I say to the noble Lord, Lord is what the amendment is about, although I understand McKenzie, that we are talking about the bailiff service, that it has triggered much concern about the general not the enforcement service. situation. Unfortunately, it does not quite do the trick. The Ministry of Justice consultation, Transforming The noble Baroness probably did not think that it did Bailiff Action, which was mentioned by the noble but that it was another opportunity to have this discussion Lord, Lord Stevenson, closed on 14 May. It looked at and bring the matter to wider attention again. It does how the Government—that is, going across government not work for local government because, essentially, it —can provide more protection against aggressive bailiffs is not properly worded. It requires authorities to include and encourage more flexibility in their use, including procedures in their contracts with bailiff companies the need for more care in how the bailiffs go about covering the enforcement of council tax. These would their business. One reason why the amendment is not allow the bailiffs to refer the decision to take enforcement appropriate to this Bill is that the issue goes across action to an authority for reconsideration where there government. The use of bailiffs is a responsibility of are concerns about the debtor’s liability or their ability the Ministry of Justice; then we get to the Department to pay. I agree with the noble Lord that that should for Work and Pensions, and then we come back to the just be part of the practice: that if bailiffs find something DCLG. It is extremely important that this does not wrong, they should automatically take that into account. just get logged in one department; it must be addressed I should explain that the amendment does not across the piece. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, accurately reflect the way that bailiffs are authorised knows that because she said so. She knows that the to take enforcement action in respect of council amendment is not appropriate, but I do not go over tax, because no warrant issued by the local authority her will to see this matter debated—it is very sensible. is involved in the process. Under the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, 5.15 pm bailiffs can be used to recover unpaid council tax—that The responses to Transforming Bailiff Action are is, levy distress—only where a magistrates’ court has being considered and agreed, and a Whitehall approach made a liability order. That was the point made by my will come forward in due course. The noble Baroness’s noble friend Lord Lucas. amendment refers also to the National Standards for The local authority is allowed to apply for only Enforcement Agents document issued by the Ministry reasonable costs, and those are capped at £70. There of Justice, and particularly page 9. The noble Lord, will be further costs only after distress from the bailiffs Lord Stevenson, also referred to it. The document is levied. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Smith, that provides useful advice on handling vulnerable cases; a great deal of work is involved before schedules are although I recognise that it is not legally binding, we produced before the court—I used to deal with them would expect the enforcement services and creditors in frequently, and magistrates do not just wipe them taking any form of action to adhere to it when undertaking through; a lot of questions are asked. enforcement visits. However, I have heard the general concern that has been expressed about this and will That was a slight diversion. I am keenly aware that make sure that that particular concern is put into the the use of bailiffs to enforce unpaid council tax is an discussions on the way forward. emotive and sensitive issue—we have heard about My department and I are very clear that there is many of the reasons why today—particularly when something behind this amendment. I hear very clearly used against vulnerable people. Many disquieting examples what has been said. The debate today will be passed to have been given this afternoon of where that is happening. the Ministry of Justice as well, so that it knows what The Government believe that the use of bailiffs should has been said. I thank everyone who has spoken from be a last resort. I think that most local authorities their hearts as well as on practical issues and ask the believe that and that everything else should be done noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment on the before they say that it must go to the bailiffs. It follows basis that it is not appropriate in this legislation. that we do not believe that they should be commissioned disproportionately; they should be a last resort. Councils should take direct responsibility for ensuring that bailiffs Lord Lucas: My Lords, I should say to the noble abide by acceptable practices. No one can be content Baroness, Lady Hollis, that I will indeed do what I can with people working on their or the courts’ behalf to provide her with some evidence. I should be grateful who do not act reasonably, courteously and sensitively. if either she or the noble Lord, Lord Tope, or anyone GC 285 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 286

[LORD LUCAS] provisions within regulations that cover the collection else who was belabouring me for being beastly to of debts from those families and individuals who are councils could point out to me where on a council’s in financial hardship and where some injustice is being website there are references to the sort of behaviour done. which they say goes on as a matter of routine. I have Having said all that, and hoping that we will have just looked at some; I looked in vain at Norwich, and further discussions with the department and its officials, at several others, and they all lay out the bare bones of I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. the charges and the bailiffs and say nothing about finding your way into the care of the noble Lord, Lord Amendment 94 withdrawn. Stevenson of Balmacara, or other ways in which to deal with the problems that you may have. It is not Amendments 95 and 96 not moved. there on their websites. I cannot say that I have seen them all, but I have looked at half a dozen in the course of the winding up. I would be very grateful if Clause 15: Power for HMRC to supply information for those who have belaboured me could show me where purposes of council tax on the websites of the councils with which they have involvement this sort of attitude to people who fail to pay their council tax is demonstrated. I hope that we Amendment 96ZA shall manage to make some progress at Report in this Moved by Baroness Hanham direction, because it seems that there is considerable scope for not only bailiffs but councils behaving better 96ZA: Clause 15, page 17, line 7, at end insert— to take care of the vulnerable but also effectively and “( ) In Schedule 11 to the LGFA 1988, in paragraph 8(3)(ea) efficiently recover council tax while causing a minimum (regulations about procedure before tribunals)— of distress on the way. I am delighted to hear that (a) for sub-paragraph (iv) substitute— things are better than I had understood, but I would “(iv) paragraph 15A or 15B of Schedule 2 to the 1992 love to see some evidence. Act or regulations under that Schedule;”, (b) omit the “or” following that sub-paragraph, and Baroness Meacher: My Lords, I thank the many (c) after “1996” insert “or of information supplied under noble Lords who have spoken in this debate so powerfully section 131 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 for purposes and helpfully. I must also thank the Zacchaeus 2000 relating to council tax;”.” Trust and the reverend Paul Nicholson, who has been behind all this. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, the amendment will Important points were made in this debate, albeit enable regulations to be made about how information that, as I mentioned in our meeting with the Minister, supplied to billing authorities by Her Majesty’s Revenue this is a probing amendment raised in the context of and Customs and the Department for Work and Pensions the DWP and the MoJ. The point was to bring to may be used as evidence in an appeal to the Valuation Ministers’ notice the relationship between the three Tribunal. departments and the similar issues that apply, whatever As noble Lords know, data-sharing will be an words one might use. I certainly agree that the amendment important way to maximise convenience and reduce does not deal with all the problems. I particularly complexity for applicants, while helping to reduce endorse the point made by the noble Lord, administrative costs. It will reduce the need for applicants Lord Stevenson, that we need a regulatory or licensing to have repeatedly to provide the same information system. Ten years ago, when I was chairman of the and evidence to various public sector bodies. Security Industry Authority, I pressed hard, as far as I Section 131 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 provides could at that stage, for such a regulatory system for for the sharing of information relating to social security bailiffs. Often they say it takes 10 years before an idea benefits and welfare services with a qualifying person comes to fruition, so this is about time for the regulation for prescribed purposes relating to welfare services or of bailiffs. I am sure that it was raised 20 years ago, council tax. That will enable data held by the Department and, no doubt, 30 years ago, but there we go. It is for Work and Pensions about current benefits and, in certainly time that that was done. future, universal credit, to be provided to English and I also very strongly support what was said about Welsh billing authorities and Scottish local authorities advice agencies. It is in no one’s interest that advice for the administration of local council tax reduction agencies are being cut back now. I appeal to the schemes. With the move to universal credit and the Minister to do anything that she can to ring-fence or sharing of real-time income information, an increasing support local advice agencies and prevent the totally amount of the information that the Department for destructive withdrawal of funds from those bodies. Of Work and Pensions will use to calculate entitlement course, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said, local will originate with and be owned by Her Majesty’s authorities need to collect the money, but they seem to Revenue and Customs. Amendments made in the other be spending an awful lot of money on trying to do so, place introduced new paragraphs 15A and 15B to the which again is self-destructive. Local Government Finance Act 1992. They will allow I understand the Minister’s comments, but we need for information held by HMRC to be shared for this looked at across the three key departments—there prescribed purposes relating to council tax. may be others—to see whether sensible regulations Amendment 96ZA makes an amendment to paragraph can be drawn up. As has been said, guidance is fine, 8(3)(ea) of Schedule 11 to the Local Government but it is not mandatory. We would like mandatory Finance Act 1988. This currently provides that regulations GC 287 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 288 may be made about the use of evidence at the valuation (8) It is not an offence under this section— tribunal, including, in particular, the use as evidence (a) to disclose information in the form of a summary or of information supplied under specified legislation. collection of information so framed as not to enable This amendment adds to the list of specified legislation, information relating to any particular person to be identified to ensure that regulations may also be made about the from it; use as evidence of information supplied by HM Revenue (b) to disclose information which has previously been and Customs under new paragraphs 15A and 15B in disclosed to the public with lawful authority. Schedule 2 to the Local Government Finance Act (9) It is a defence for a person (“D”) charged with an offence 1992 and the Department for Work and Pensions under this section to prove that at the time of the alleged offence— under Section 131 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 for (a) D believed that D was making the disclosure in question with lawful authority and had no reasonable cause to purposes relating to council tax. The amendment is believe otherwise, or being made to allow regulations also to be made on (b) D believed that the information in question had previously how information supplied to a billing authority by been disclosed to the public with lawful authority and HM Revenue and Customs and by the Department for had no reasonable cause to believe otherwise. Work and Pensions for council tax purposes may (10) For the purposes of this section, “lawful authority” has subsequently be used as evidence in any appeal in the meaning given by section 117 of the Social Security Administration relation to an applicant’s council tax liability. With (Northern Ireland) Act 1992. that explanation, I beg to move. (11) In this section— “Revenue and Customs official”, “the Revenue and Customs” and “function of the Revenue and Customs” have the same meaning as in section 18 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Amendment 96ZA agreed. Customs Act 2005; “rates” has the same meaning as in the Rates (Northern Clause 15, as amended, agreed. Ireland) Order 1977 (S.I. 1977/2157 (N.I.28)); “prescribed” means prescribed by regulations made by DFP. Amendment 96A (12) Regulations under this section must not be made except with the consent of the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue Moved by Baroness Hanham and Customs. (13) The power to make regulations under this section is 96A: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause— exercisable by statutory rule for the purposes of the Statutory “Power for HMRC to supply information for purposes of Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979 (S.I. 1979/1573 (N.I.12)). rates in Northern Ireland (14) Regulations under this section are to be the subject to (1) A Revenue and Customs official may supply information negative resolution (within the meaning of section 41(6) of the which is held by the Revenue and Customs in connection with a Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954). function of the Revenue and Customs to a qualifying person for (15) This section comes into force at the end of the period of prescribed purposes relating to rates. 2 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.” (2) The following are qualifying persons— (a) the Department of Finance and Personnel in Northern Ireland (“DFP”); Baroness Hanham: Amendments 96A, 98, 99, 100, (b) the Northern Ireland Housing Executive (“NIHE”); 102 and 103 insert a new clause to allow Her Majesty’s (c) a person authorised to exercise any function of DFP or Revenue and Customs to supply information for NIHE relating to rates; prescribed purposes relating to rates to the Department (d) a person providing services to DFP or NIHE relating to of Finance and Personnel in Northern Ireland and the rates. Northern Ireland Housing Executive. They provide (3) Information supplied under this section may be used for for offences relating to the misuse of that information another prescribed purpose relating to rates. and make consequential amendments to Clause 19 of (4) Information supplied under this section may be supplied to the Bill. Amendments are also made to Clause 17 to another qualifying person for a prescribed purpose relating to provide that any consequential changes to an Act of rates (whether or not that is a purpose for which it was supplied). the Scottish Parliament, an Act or measure of the (5) A person to whom subsection (6) applies is guilty of an National Assembly for Wales and Northern Ireland offence if the person discloses without lawful authority any legislation will be subject to affirmative resolution information— procedure. Consequential amendments are also made (a) which comes to the person by virtue of this section, and to Clause 19 to provide that this new clause extends to (b) which relates to a particular person. Northern Ireland and Clause 17 extends to England (6) This subsection applies to— and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. (a) a qualifying person other than DFP; Data-sharing will be an important way of maximising (b) a person who is or has been a director, member of the convenience and reducing complexity for claimants, committee of management, manager, secretary or other while also helping to minimise administrative costs. It similar officer of a qualifying person; will reduce the need for individuals to repeatedly have (c) a person who is or has been an employee of a qualifying to provide the same information and evidence to various person. public sector bodies. From April next year, in a similar (7) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable— way to the council tax reduction schemes introduced (a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term by this Bill, the current system of supporting households not exceeding 2 years or a fine, or both; with rates payments in Northern Ireland will be taken (b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not out of the social security system and become a relief exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory funded from the Northern Ireland block grant. The maximum, or both. primary purpose of the new clause is to allow the GC 289 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 290

[BARONESS HANHAM] Ireland Housing Executive for administering rates, supply of HMRC information to the appropriate bodies which can be personal and private, will be treated in to assess rates support for vulnerable households in the strictest of confidence and will be disclosed to Northern Ireland. others only in a limited range of circumstances and for Proposed new subsection (1) of Amendment 96A purposes relating to rates. will allow HMRC to supply information held for the Proposed new subsection (11) in Amendment 96A purposes of its functions to a “qualifying person”. allows, in this section, any references to, Proposed new subsection (2) in Amendment 96A defines “‘Revenue and Customs official’, ‘the Revenue and Customs’ and qualifying persons as DFP and NIHE, as well as ‘function of the Revenue and Customs’ have the same meaning as anyone authorised to exercise any function of those in section 18 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act bodies, and to service providers for purposes relating 2005 … ‘rates’ has the same meaning as in the Rates (Northern to rates. I will find out what those abbreviations mean Ireland) Order 1977”, and come back to noble Lords. and “prescribed” to mean prescribed by regulations made by the Department for Finance and Personnel in Northern Ireland. I have only another six sections to 5.30 pm go. Proposed new subsections (3) and (4) in Amendment Proposed new subsections (12), (13) and (14) in 96A will allow the information supplied to be used for Amendment 96A require that these regulations can be another prescribed purpose relating to rates and for made only with the consent of the commissioners for the information to be supplied to another qualifying Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Regulations under person for a purpose relating to rates, whether or not this section may be made in accordance with the that purpose was the one for which it was supplied. Statutory Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979. These This could involve the sharing of information between regulations are subject to negative resolution. the two organisations that are responsible for administering rates support in Northern Ireland. The provisions Proposed new subsection (15) in Amendment 96A would also enable those organisations to use the provides that this section will come into force at the information for the purposes of improving awareness end of the period of two months—which is about and take up of rate support more generally. Without when I will finish talking about it—beginning with the this legal gateway, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs day on which this Act is passed. Amendments 100 will not be able to provide the information needed for to 103 make consequential amendments to the Bill as the provision of rate relief. This would increase both a result of this new clause including amendments to complexity for claimants and administrative costs. Clause 19 to provide that this new clause and Clause 17 extend to Northern Ireland. It is of course important that this information is treated with care. That is why I propose new subsections Finally, Amendments 98 and 99 amend Clause 17 (5) and (6) in Amendment 96A to create offences in to provide that any order made under Clause 17(2) relation to disclosing Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs making consequential changes to Acts of the Scottish information provided to Department of Finance and Parliament, Acts or Measures of the National Assembly Personnel in Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland for Wales or Northern Ireland legislation will be subject Housing Executive without lawful authority. These to affirmative resolution procedure. provide that someone will be guilty of an offence if With these explanations, I await the noble Lord’s they disclose without lawful authority any information comments. that relates to a particular person which they obtain from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this is totally Proposed new subsections (7), (8) and (9) in clear to us and we are very happy to support the Amendment 96A specify that a person guilty of such amendment. an offence is liable to imprisonment of up to two years or a fine, or both. It makes it clear, however, that disclosing information in the form of an anonymised Baroness Hanham: I am grateful and I beg to move summary or collection of information, or information the amendment. that has previously been legitimately disclosed, is not an offence. These offences, and penalties, are similar Amendment 96A agreed. to those in Section 132 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 and Clause 15D of the Local Government Finance Bill. Amendment 97 Proposed new subsection (10) in Amendment 96A Moved by Baroness Sherlock provides that the definition of lawful authority is to 97: Before Clause 16, insert the following new Clause— have the same meaning given by Section 117 of the Social Security Administration (Northern Ireland) “Grants paid under section 70 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 Act 1992. This is the same definition as in Section 123 (1) Any grant paid to local authorities under section 70 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 (social fund) shall be expended by the of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, which local authority only for said purposes. is used in this Bill and in the Welfare Reform Act 2012. (2) Any such grants will be made under the guidance of the These amendments provide Her Majesty’s Revenue Secretary of State with regard to the application of any “local and Customs and the public with an assurance that connection rules” including so that any such rule does not apply information supplied to the Department for Finance to— and Personnel in Northern Ireland and the Northern (a) people who have fled domestic violence; GC 291 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 292

(b) young people who have left local authority care; authorities for that purpose would require; and that is (c) people who are homeless, or who have been homeless an existing budget—how much greater will the temptation within the last 12 months; be with a new budget? The fieldwork done by the (d) people who have left institutional or residential care, Department for Work and Pensions with local authorities including a hospital, prison or young offenders’ institution.” shows some interesting things. While some authorities were unenthusiastic about any ring-fencing, a number Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, I can hardly hope to were, match that performance, but I shall do my humble “concerned that without a ringfence ... funding would quickly best. I rise to move Amendment 97 in the name of my become amalgamated into existing budgets and as a result its noble friend Lady Lister of Burtersett, to which my identity, visibility and purpose would be lost. A second concern name is also attached. My noble friend apologises to was that councillors or directorate heads”— the Committee for her absence today. She is receiving none present, I am sure— an honorary degree, which could not be readily rearranged, “would redirect the funding to plug gaps in other budgets”. so, disappointed as she is—particularly, I think, to It is just such fears that this amendment is designed to have missed that last amendment—she has asked me allay. to do my best to share with the Committee the points she would have wished to make. I acknowledge her Both the present and the previous Social Fund considerable expertise and any errors that creep in are Commissioner have expressed similar anxieties. The entirely my own. potential consequences have been spelt out by In April 2013, local authorities will have to deal organisations such as Citizens Advice and Family with the transfer of responsibility not just for council Action: greater reliance on over-stretched charities, on tax benefit but also for the discretionary Social Fund, food banks and on high-cost lenders, as the Joint described by charities as a lifeline for some of the Committee on Human Rights also warned in its report poorest and most marginalised people in society.Through on the Welfare Reform Bill. Otherwise, people must a system of community care grants and crisis loans, as simply go without, with potential risk to health or noble Lords will know, the discretionary Social Fund safety. I am sure that other noble Lords have similar provides vital cash assistance to some of the most experiences but I know that the food bank in Durham, vulnerable members of the community. Community which my church supports, is seeing demand rise care grants help people on out-of-work benefits to faster than we could ever have imagined, and that is remain in or set up their own home and to retain their before the Social Fund is abolished. Therefore, I dread independence. These may be, for example, young people to think what is coming down the track towards us leaving a children’s home or foster care; people with next. chronic health conditions or disabilities who need aids During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill, the or adaptations in order to allow them to live in the noble Lords, Lord Freud and Lord de Mauley, made community; or women who have fled domestic violence. clear their commitment to ensuring that the money is Crisis loans are interest-free loans payable when they spent on and reaches the vulnerable people for whom are the only way of preventing serious damage or it is intended. I know that they have gone to some serious risk to health or safety as a consequence of an length to try to make sure that this happens by stipulating emergency or a disaster. that the money will be part of a special revenue grant, The Welfare Reform Act 2012 abolishes these accompanied by a detailed settlement letter, the details provisions with no guarantee that local authorities of which we eagerly await. When can we expect that will pick up the pieces using the money allocated to settlement letter? them. The first part of Amendment 97 is designed to Ministers may wish to resist this attempt to underwrite ensure that the money transferred to local authorities the Government’s own objectives in law, perhaps on is used for the purposes intended. Experience suggests the grounds that it might stifle innovation or that that without a clear legal obligation, there is no way of councils might prefer to invest the money in existing ensuring that the money allocated to local authorities services for vulnerable people. I would never want to will be spent in the way that the Government and stifle innovation, but there is no reason why the Parliament intend. This is not a criticism of local amendment should do so. However, investing in existing authorities, but simply a realistic appraisal that, in the services, even where these support vulnerable people, current climate, many local authorities are struggling may well not be enough. to meet their statutory functions in the face of budget In his latest annual report, the Social Fund cuts to which the Bill adds. Research by the Joseph Commissioner warned that the fund’s casework experience Rowntree Foundation indicates that: suggests that many social fund applicants are not “It cannot be assumed that the needs of disadvantaged residents known at all to other agencies such as social services. and communities will inevitably be to the fore as councils manage Citizens Advice has advised its bureaux that entitlement budget reductions”. to social services is often set at a very high threshold, This pot of money, transferred to local authorities to which could exclude many of those currently eligible meet the needs of some of the most disadvantaged for help under the Social Fund. In other words, they residents, could be very tempting. are not necessarily the same people. It believes that it is The experience of Supporting People, a fund designed crucial that there continues to be a last resort source of to help vulnerable groups, is not very encouraging. cash for people who currently apply for crisis loans to Since the ring fence was removed, overall spending on meet basic needs, such as fuel, following a disaster or Supporting People has been cut by over 10 percentage emergency. A recent study from the Child Poverty points more than the settlement received by local Action Group of how London local authorities are GC 293 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 294

[BARONESS SHERLOCK] but would provide some protection for some of the preparing to deliver the new responsibilities found no most vulnerable members of the community and ensure authority planning to provide any cash support, although that the money voted by Parliament was used for the some had not entirely ruled it out. purposes intended. Proposed new subsection (2) in Amendment 97 addresses a concern raised by a number of charities 5.45 pm that local authorities might be tempted to impose a local or residence condition as a way of rationing Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I strongly assistance—in other words, that they might confine support the amendment moved so powerfully by my help to people who already have a local connection. noble friend Lady Sherlock. I want to add two further However, many people who currently qualify for help points to the admirable way in which she raised from the Social Fund are just the people who are least the concerns that I think we all share. The first was the likely to have an existing local connection—for example, implication for social workers and the second is the women who have fled domestic violence, young people implication for certain local authorities. I will glare at who have left care and others who have left institutional the noble Lord, Lord Tope, when we come to the care, or homeless people. Again, this issue has been second point as he will guess where I am going on that. highlighted by the London authorities study by the On the implications for social workers, they are CPAG. Its report notes: being asked to undertake a role that is not consistent “A key issue emerged around local connection rules. Charities with their current responsibilities. Their work towards ... expressed fears that if applicants to local schemes are asked to helping children with occasional financial support is prove a local connection, families who have had to move, such as based on Section 17 of the Children Act 1987, under those who have experienced domestic violence, or those leaving which they are expected to intervene when children’s prison, may find themselves with no way of accessing support”. health and development is seriously at risk. That may Authorities, involve issues of abuse or when children need to go “emphasised the need for an integrated approach”. into grandparents’ care, and so on. It was never intended The report pointed out that, to meet basic needs of relieving poverty, providing “the issue of local connection presents collective action problems; family housing or accommodation for children separately if one local authority chooses to apply local connection rules and from the parents unless it was necessary to promote others do not, those who do not are likely to see an unsustainable and safeguard their welfare. As a result of the Social increase in demand for their schemes’”. Fund—whether ring-fenced or otherwise—going over The report expresses a preference for no local connection to local government, social workers will be asked to do tests so that those who cross authority boundaries can two additional things as well as trying to deliver the access support, and it calls for a strategic steer from purposes of Section 17 of the 1987 Act. government. This amendment would go slightly further First, it is feared that local authorities will not than a strategic steer but not as far as preventing any inevitably budget for sufficient funds. Money might local connection rules at all. It would simply require run out in January, which is always a problem with local authorities to make grants in accordance with cash-capped grants, or the amount will be so low that guidance about such rules, and that such guidance the Section 17 work will be drawn on, which will should ensure that local connection rules are not diminish the work that we are currently doing to help applied to the vulnerable groups listed in the amendment. children who face abuse. Secondly, and more worryingly, In the House of Commons, when questioned on social work time will be taken up with assessing whether this matter, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions a child whose parents cannot meet their basic needs is assured Members that local authorities had a “moral being neglected or is in need according to the Section 17 duty” in this area. I welcome this recognition of a definition. They will be saying no frequently as poverty moral duty, but I encourage the Minister cosndier how alone, or lack of accommodation, does not fit the which she can make sure that that moral duty is Section 17 definition. That was taken away from child fulfilled. The CPAG study picked up concern among protection and other work with families with complex local authorities that the reduction in funding for needs. It will create friction with families that they are crisis loans to 2005-06 levels will leave them unable to trying to help, as they will frequently have to say that meet considerable amounts of need, so the temptation they do not fit the legal criteria and will appear to use local connection rules as a rationing device heartless. could be overwhelming for some of them. Clear guidance Asking local authorities to now be the gateway to on this issue would also be in line with the Social Fund cash handouts for cookers, tables and chairs, bedding, Commissioner’s emphasis on the need for guidelines and so on, is inconsistent with the role that social that, workers actually have, which is trying to help families “set parameters for local discretion”, to develop. The same will apply equally to local authorities so as to, and council tax benefit. There is a real problem for council social workers. Although I cannot speak for “achieve some broad consistency of purpose and approach”. the British Association of Social Workers and do not If the Minister cannot accept the amendment, can she have its views, social workers I have talked to, including at least reassure the Committee that she will consider eminent professors of social work, are deeply concerned the case for guidance on local connection in the settlement about what they regard as the deforming and warping letter in the way that I described? However, I hope that of the role of social workers. They will now be guardians that will not be necessary and that the Government of the gateway to cash handouts in a way they have will accept the amendment. It would cost no money not been before and do not wish to be now. GC 295 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 296

My second problem is the implication for two-tier protect pensioners whom they see as vulnerable when authorities. Providing social services is a county function it comes to council tax support schemes, so why do we and housing is a district council function. They are not have some central guidance to protect those fleeing splintered because of the two-tier structure that we domestic violence, those leaving care, the homeless have in this country.Social services will have discretionary and those leaving institutional care? My noble friend Social Fund moneys, often for claimants for whom Lady Sherlock quoted assurances received from Ministers they have not previously worked, across a county-wide during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill to the area—40 miles by 60 miles, perhaps, or with a million effect that funding for what was the Social Fund, now people living in it. They will have to make judgments transferred to local authorities will be part of a special about who to help with a limited budget that is not revenue grant accompanied by a detailed settlement ring-fenced and which may be used for child protection letter. Can the Minister deal specifically with the inquiry or social care for the elderly, which has increasing made by my noble friend on that point? We know that dominance and a higher priority in most county council there will be a revenue support grant for the first budgets—and perfectly reasonably so. couple of years of the business rate retention scheme, Housing authorities, of course, have responsibility but the position after this is a little opaque. In any for discretionary housing. My authority in Norwich event, can the Minister confirm that the funding in has enough to support 50 families. In the previous question will be provided by central government in year it ran out in November. Some of those families in addition to the central share of the business rate, on distress will be the same families; some of them will be top of the central share? dealt with by county council social workers and the We know that councils will try to do the right thing Social Fund, and many of the same families will for those who most need their support, but life has possibly be dealt with by the local authorities at the been made incredibly difficult for them by prior cuts, district level, handling the housing discretionary payments. the cuts in this Bill and more cuts to come. In all the They are often likely to be the same families in the near impossible judgments that councils will have to future. For unitary authorities, I hope that there will make, we can provide just a small voice for those who be a cohesive service as they should be able to manage might otherwise not be heard. I support my noble the local connection issues. For cities such as mine friend’s amendment. where we are stuck against our will in a two-tier system, it will not be easy to handle. There will be costly Baroness Hanham: My Lords, this has been a short duplication and even more profound problems about but interesting debate. I thank the noble Baroness for the localisation issue; the county might be helping raising this on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady people who live in one district where they have a local Lister, and I should say how delighted we are about connection whose housing needs may be experienced her honorary degree. I hope that it is in something in a different district. The same family may get help associated with what we are doing here—but, if not, it simultaneously from welfare rights people at district is none the less a great achievement. level as well as social services at county level. Amendment 97 relates to the Social Fund. As the As the measure stands, it is a mess. As noble Lords noble Baroness said, this is provided for in the Welfare will know, if they know about two-tier authorities, I Reform Act, for which the Department for Work and cannot see how it can work, when you have county Pensions is responsible. It states that: council social workers trying to dish out cash hand “Any grant paid to local authorities under section 70 of the payments to a proportion of 1 million people at county Welfare Reform Act 2012 … shall be expended by the local council level while simultaneously the district authority authority only for said purposes”, is responsible for discretionary housing payments which and that: may have been engendered by the same crisis and is “Any such grants will be made under the guidance of the supposed to maintain a separate fund, also not ring-fenced. Secretary of State with regard to the application of any ‘local This is costly and it is duplication. At the very least it connection rules’ … so that any such rule does not apply to”, should be ring-fenced; at the very least there should be various categories of vulnerable people. issues of guidance—and, at the very least, central government should require county social services to Proposed new subsection (1) of the amendment work closely with district authorities to try to overcome may be based on a confusion, as Section 70 of the what this Government in a previous incarnation Welfare Reform Act 2012 relates to the winding up of splintered—I refer to housing from social services—which the Social Fund and transfer of money into the affect the most vulnerable people in our communities. consolidated fund, rather than the transfer of money to local authorities. However, I believe that the intention behind the amendment is to guarantee that grants Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we have just allocated to local authorities for local welfare provision, heard a compelling and comprehensive case from and following the abolition of community care grants and on behalf of my noble friends, with which I wholly agree. crisis loans from April 2013, are used for the purpose As my noble friend Lady Sherlock said, it does not cost intended. any money and it would provide some protection for I reassure the Committee that the settlement letter some of the most vulnerable members of our community. to which the noble Baroness referred will accompany If we could unite around this issue, it would be a good that funding. I am not yet sure when that letter is due, way in which to conclude our Committee deliberations. but I will make inquiries and let her know. The settlement The proposal concerning local connection rules is letter will set out what the funding is to be used for, the at the very least something that the Government should underlying principles and the outcome that must be accept. They are prepared to give central direction to achieved—although not the method that should be GC 297 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 298

[BARONESS HANHAM] important to resist any attempts to curtail those freedoms used to achieve it. It will state that the funding is to or dampen down local innovation, so I urge that the concentrate resources on those facing the greatest proposed new subsection (1) in the amendment be difficulty in managing their income and to enable a rejected. more flexible response to unavoidable need. I turn to proposed new subsection (2). It is intended to ensure that certain particularly vulnerable groups Baroness Hollis of Heigham: How will social workers are not rendered ineligible for support on the basis of who have never dealt with those families know? There a test for local residence or connections. The Department may be a million people in the area. How will they for Work and Pensions has discussed that issue with know which of the 100, 200 or 300 families might need local authorities—who, of course, are already familiar and be entitled to help under what used to be the with it. It is not an issue limited to the Social Fund, as Social Fund? local authorities already deal with boundary issues in the delivery of other services, such as housing the Baroness Hanham: My Lords, that is something homeless. that the settlement letter will make clear and local authorities will have to make clear to their social workers how they are to administer it. That comes Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, that pertains with any legislation: people have to take up the baton to district councils. The Government are assuming and carry out what is asked of them. that they are dealing with unitary authorities that therefore have a body of experience, but half the Baroness Hollis of Heigham: So the Minister accepts country is in a two-tier structure and they are asking that, in addition to child protection work, social care social workers to do what they have never done, whereas and all the rest of it, there is to be a new tranche of all the expertise is at district level. It would be much social work activity at a time when they are very hard more sensible if the money had been aligned and it pressed to do what they currently have to. They will was for district councils to allow for the discretionary have to be the gateway or the monitor of the cash housing payment. handouts under the Social Fund. 6pm Baroness Hanham: My Lords, the applications will Baroness Hanham: The noble Baroness makes her be made to the local authority, which will presumably point. I cannot comment any further on that. decide whether they are warranted or not. The letter will make explicit that the funding is Local authorities already have many duties to provide make new provision for when community care grants assistance to vulnerable people under existing legislation and general living expenses—crisis loans—are abolished. and frequently co-operate with other local authorities It will explain what community care grants are awarded in doing so. For example, there are differences in what for and why the crisis loans were awarded. Without they will be asked to do. A London local authority curtailing the freedom of local authorities to tailor might be dealing with a large transient population, provision, the settlement letter will ensure that the while a local authority on the south coast of England money intended for vulnerable people goes to them. In might be dealing with an older population. That is one addition, the Department for Work and Pensions plans of the reasons why each local authority will need to to conduct a review in 2014-15 of a cross-section of have flexibility to design its own scheme to meet its local authorities to ask them to report on how they appropriate requirements. have used the funding for the new local provision. Furthermore, we will encourage local authorities to That will be aided by the fact that the funding is link support across boundaries. This already happens through a separate, identifiable grant. in places such as Wandsworth, Hammersmith and I assure noble Lords that the Government are Fulham, and Kensington and Chelsea, which already committed to ensuring that the funding goes to help work together to provide joint services. This is done the most vulnerable. That is why we have put the across the country where they may not link up in quite provisions in place. I therefore urge noble Lords to the same way as this group, but they are already conclude that the amendment is not required to meet working together. The groups referred to in proposed that aim. new subsection (2), including young homeless people, those fleeing domestic violence, young people leaving Baroness Sherlock: Before the Minister sits down— care and people returning to the community from institutional or residential care, already receive assistance Baroness Hanham: I have another five or six pages from local authorities and central government. Local here. authorities have, for example, a number of existing responsibilities in relation to the provision of emergency Baroness Sherlock: In that case, I shall not be so and longer-term accommodation. They have particular impatient. responsibilities in respect of those with a priority need, such as those who are vulnerable because of age, Baroness Hanham: Directing local authorities to mental illness or disability and those with dependent use funding in a particular way would go against one children. of the fundamental principles of this reform. The Section 199 of the Housing Act 1996 sets out what policy gives local authorities the freedom to deliver for constitutes a local connection in relation to people the public rather than central government and to do who are homeless. There is also statutory guidance for what is right for people in their area. We think it local authorities from the Department for Communities GC 299 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 300 and Local Government to which local authorities must that some or all of this provision by local authorities have regard. The effect is that people initially receive should be in cash? Secondly, I understood her to be help from the local authority to which they apply saying that the letter of settlement would specify the whether or not they have a local connection. However, purpose to which the money should be applied and the those with a local connection to another area may be outcomes to be expected. referred there, unless they are at risk of violence if During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill they return. A local authority which houses someone there was a detailed debate in the Chamber in which would be in a good position to provide help through the late and much lamented Lord Newton of Braintree the new local provision, for example, with furnishing asked the Minister what would happen if the local the accommodation that it arranges. I gather that the authority were to take the money and spend it on noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, does not agree with that. something totally different, such as a road or a swimming pool. This became a matter of some debate. In the end Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the Minister I finally got up and pressed the noble Lord, Lord makes my point for me. How much easier it would be De Mauley, myself and asked, what would happen if a if housing and social services were aligned. local authority spent the money on a swimming pool? His response was: Baroness Hanham: This is an example of how the “My Lords, the local authority will not spend the money on a new local provision will allow local authorities to swimming pool”.—[Official Report, 17/1/12; col. 475.] deliver a more comprehensive service as they can use So I put the question now to the Minister: what would the new provision alongside already existing support. happen, what action would the Government take, if a As regards young people leaving local authority care, local authority spent the money on a swimming pool local authorities have a duty to safeguard and promote or a road? the welfare of a child, and have duties until the child is 21. Local authorities also have duties to support Baroness Hanham: If the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, disabled people or those who are destitute. They must said that it was not going to happen, it will not happen. make arrangements for promoting the welfare of those with a disability or mental disorder, including the Baroness Sherlock: A very nice try on the Minister’s welfare needs of people leaving hospital, having received part and stylishly done, but one of the reasons I am so in-patient care for a mental disorder. glad that she is here is that, during that point we were The National Health Service and Community Care very conscious that this is a matter of what local Act 1990 requires local authorities to prepare a plan authorities do themselves and how they make a choice for the provision of community care services in is a matter in which the DCLG has particular expertise. consultation with relevant bodies and to assess the I would not expect the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, needs of people who may be in need. Local authorities to have the level of expertise in local authority behaviour are therefore already required by multiple legislative that I know the Minister has. Surely, she can do better duties to provide support to the most vulnerable. I than that. think that one would accept that they have a moral duty to do so. They will be able to use this experience Baroness Hanham: The noble Lady is not going to to deliver the new local provision, so there is no need get better than that. I have had a huge number of for local connection eligibility rules to be published. detailed questions about the Social Fund. They are all They already have duties to the most vulnerable and the responsibility of the Department for Work and are familiar with dealing with boundary issues. I also Pensions, by and large, until those things are formally remind the Committee that the new local provision is announced and we can see how they are going to not the only support that will be available. There will work. We will ensure that noble Lords and the noble also be a national payments-on-account scheme to Baroness receive any further information that there is. replace budgeting loans and crisis loans for alignment. This will cover need that arises as a result of the Lord Beecham: My Lords, I am sorry to intervene, benefit system, such as a change in circumstances or a but there is an aspect of this which I do not think has delay in receiving benefit. It will also enable those on been touched on and that is that there is a new burdens the lowest incomes to access interest-free advances of aspect, not in respect of the transfer of the money, but their universal credit as budgeting advances. in the cost of administering delivery of the scheme. In conclusion, the safeguards to which I have referred Presumably, the cost at the moment is borne by the will ensure that money intended for vulnerable people DWP. That cost will have to be met, in one way or goes to them. The most discretionary support will be another, by the local authorities now actually administering better tailored so that they receive what they need the scheme. Have the DWP or the Department for when it is delivered locally. The new local provision Communities and Local Government costed that aspect, and the national provision of payments on account and will it provide the resources for local authorities will complement each other. Taken as a whole they under the new burdens doctrine? will provide more effective and better targeted support. I hope that with that long explanation the noble Baroness Hanham: The answer to the noble Lord’s Baroness will withdraw her amendment. question is yes. The Government have said that any new burdens will be funded and the amount of the Baroness Sherlock: Before the noble Baroness sits new burden will be based on what the Department for down, may I ask two questions? I will respond to her Work and Pensions currently spends to administer points in a moment. First, is there any requirement these parts of the Social Fund. GC 301 Local Government Finance Bill[LORDS] Local Government Finance Bill GC 302

Lord McKenzie of Luton: Will the noble Baroness I now have some information. I would be grateful if say a little more about this settlement letter? I am the Minister could write to me before the next stage trying to envisage the settlement letter in the context because this is something that we will have to consider of business rate retention schemes and revenue support carefully at Report. I will go back and look carefully at grants, but will she say whether the funding stream for her remarks, but Lord Newton of Braintree made it this purpose is going to be additional and will not clear during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill come from the central share of business rates, which that he intended to come back at Report. I so wish accrue to Government and then go back? Is it going to that he were here to do that. However, the noble be funding on top of that? Baroness, Lady Lister, whose work has gone on behind all of this and I will do all that we can on his behalf. Given that this is Grand Committee, I beg leave to Baroness Hanham: This is funding being moved withdraw the amendment. from one area to another, so is it additional? I suppose the answer is probably yes, because it is coming from the Department for Work and Pensions into the Amendment 97 withdrawn. Department for Communities and Local Government. Is it additional in terms of revenue support grant? I think the answer is probably yes, because it is within Clause 16 agreed. the funding of the local authority but expected to be used for the Social Fund purpose. As for the settlement letter, it will include the detail. I do not know, I am Clause 17: Power to make transitional, consequential afraid, what the settlement letter will be. I suspect that etc provision there are a lot of people in the DWP who do not know either, but I have told noble Lords that as soon as we know when it is being issued and what it contains, we Amendments 98 and 99 will let them know. Moved by Baroness Hanham 98: Clause 17, page 17, line 27, leave out “an Act” and insert Baroness Sherlock: I thank the Minister for the “any of the following” information she has given me today. I confess that I 99: Clause 17, page 17, line 28, at end insert “— am disappointed, partly by her belief that I was asking ( ) an Act of Parliament; questions of enormous detail. I really only asked two questions at the end. One was, will somebody have to ( ) an Act of the Scottish Parliament; give money out in cash? The second was, what will the ( ) an Act or Measure of the National Assembly for Wales; Government do if they do not spend it in the way that ( ) Northern Ireland legislation as defined in section 24 of they are asked to spend it? the Interpretation Act 1978.” They do not seem to be matters of detail: they are important matters about how the scheme will work Amendments 98 and 99 agreed. and whether the Government will be able to do what the Minister, as well as the noble Lords, Lord De Mauley and Lord Freud, have pledged, which is to make sure Clause 17, as amended, agreed. that the money goes to the purposes to which Parliament intended. Clause 18 agreed. I also do not find the case persuasive that local authorities have a range of other statutory duties already relating to vulnerable people. They already have all those duties and yet successive Governments Clause 19: Extent and short title of different persuasions have found it necessary none the less to have a Social Fund that people could go to, as a last resort, to get some cash for crisis situations. I Amendments 100 to 102 see nothing in what the Minister said to suggest that Moved by Baroness Hanham that need has somehow disappeared. I therefore find it impossible to understand why the existence of those 100: Clause 19, page 18, line 2, leave out “subsection (2)” and duties in other areas precludes the need for access to a insert “subsections (2) and (2A)” last resort scheme of cash in the way that successive 101: Clause 19, page 18, line 3, leave out “Sections 15 and Governments have seen the need for. 17 extend” and insert “Section 15 extends” 102: Clause 19, page 18, line 3, at end insert— The kinds of things that are bought in requirement “(2A) Sections (Power for HMRC to supply information for at the moment will not all be picked up in the way that purposes of rates in Northern Ireland) and 17 extend to England the Minister described through budgeting schemes or and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.” in dealing with late benefit payments. Those are specifically to deal with particular circumstances in cash. The fact that CPAG found that, so far, no London authorities Amendments 100 to 102 agreed. were intending to give cash suggests grave cause for concern about what will happen to those vulnerable people when that happens. Clause 19, as amended, agreed. GC 303 Local Government Finance Bill[24 JULY 2012] Local Government Finance Bill GC 304

In the Title Amendment 103 agreed.

Amendment 103 Bill reported with amendments. Moved by Baroness Hanham 103: In the Title, line 2, after “tax;” insert “to make provision about the supply of information for purposes relating to rates in Northern Ireland;” Committee adjourned at 6.14 pm.

WA 129 Written Answers[24 JULY 2012] Written Answers WA 130 Written Answers Armed Forces: Stations Question

Tuesday 24 July 2012 Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government in which countries and regions servicemen and women of Abortion HM Armed Forces are stationed; and in what numbers. [HL1585] Questions Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The following table To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further details the number of Armed Forces personnel by action they intend to take following the formal gender and location as of 1 April 2012: censure of 14 NHS hospitals after regulators found they were conducting potentially illegal abortions. Grand [HL1623] Country Region Male Female Total

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action UK Total 141,600 15,380 156,970 will be taken against NHS trusts found to be forging England 125,050 14,210 139,260 abortion certificates with doctors’ pre-signed consent East Midlands 7,380 1,030 1,030 forms. [HL1624] East of 15,780 1,560 1,560 England London 4,920 480 480 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department North East 1,250 150 150 of Health (Earl Howe): The Care Quality Commission North West 2,050 100 100 (CQC) is working with the 14 National Health Service South East 37,520 5,810 5,810 hospitals named and has required that all trusts put in South West 35,940 3,100 3,100 place compliance actions. These require providers to West Midlands 5,680 880 880 Yorkshire and 14,520 1,080 1,080 demonstrably improve their practices to ensure compliance The Humber with legal requirements; all 14 providers have now Scotland 10,500 690 11,190 taken steps to ensure compliance. The CQC will carry Wales 2,580 200 2,780 out further checks to ensure improvements have been Northern Ireland 3,460 280 3,740 made. Channel Islands - - - Overseas Locations 20,800 1,650 22,440 Investigations by the police, General Medical Council, Algeria - - - and Nursing and Midwifery Council are continuing Argentina - - - and further referrals may result from the publication Australia 50 - 50 of the CQC reports. Austria - - - Bahrain 10 - 20 Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Bangladesh - - - Belgium 300 20 330 To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Belize 10 - 10 the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 12 July (WA261), Bermuda - - - whether they will make available copies of the Bosnia and --- evidence cited; and whether they will specify and Herzegovina provide the evidence that supports the claim that a Brazil - - - decision to terminate a pregnancy improves the British Indian Ocean 40 - 40 mental health of a mother facing an unwanted Territory pregnancy. [HL1757] Brunei 130 10 140 Canada 260 10 270 Chile - - - Earl Howe: The report Induced Abortion and Mental China (inc. Hong --- Health produced by the National Collaborating Centre Kong and Macao) for Mental Health, although commissioned by the Colombia - - - department, is an independent review. The evidence Congo - - - reviewed by the steering group was from published Congo (Dem.Rep) - - - research and peer reviewed articles, which are fully Cyprus 2,390 200 2,590 referenced in the report and were subject to multiple Czech Republic 20 - 20 quality assessments prior to their inclusion. The Denmark 20 - 20 department does not hold copies of every piece of Djibouti - - - Egypt - - - research cited. Estonia - - - The report does not establish a link between a Ethiopia - - - woman having a termination of pregnancy and a Falkland Islands 40 - 50 subsequent improvement in her mental health and France 30 - 30 makes no claim to do so. Georgia - - - WA 131 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 132

Grand Assisted Dying Country Region Male Female Total Question Germany 15,750 1,240 16,990 Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Ghana - - - Gibraltar 200 30 230 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent Greece - - - assessment they have made of the effect of the India - - - legalisation of assisted dying on the treatment of Indonesia - - - vulnerable people. [HL1626] Israel - - 10 Italy 160 20 170 Jamaica - - - The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Japan - - - McNally): The Government have not made such an Jordan 20 - 20 assessment. Kazakhstan - - - Kenya 160 10 180 Kuwait 40 - 40 Lebanon - - - Aviation: Air Quality Liberia - - - Questions Malaysia 10 - 10 Morocco - - - Asked by The Countess of Mar Nepal 20 - 20 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Netherlands 150 20 170 New Zealand 10 - 10 views of the peer reviewers of the Cranfield cabin Nigeria - - - air monitoring study, who described a series of Norway 40 - 40 serious flaws which included aspects deemed “highly Oman 80 - 80 unsatisfactory” and “very highly skewed”, were Pakistan 10 - 10 taken into account when the report was published; Poland - - - and whether they maintain that contaminants found Portugal 30 - 30 were at satisfactory levels. [HL1744] Qatar 10 - 10 Republic of Serbia - - - Earl Attlee: Cranfield University’s report of May Russian Federation 10 - 10 2011 was submitted in draft for scientific peer review Saint Helena - - - Saudi Arabia 130 - 130 as is normal practice. The peer reviewers’ comments Sierra Leone 20 - 20 were taken into account before a final report was Singapore 10 - 10 issued. Cranfield stand firmly behind their report. South Africa 10 - 10 All the research projects commissioned into cabin South Korea - - - air by the Department for Transport have now been Spain 10 - 10 completed and published. They have also been referred Sudan - - - formally to the Committee on Toxicity—the independent Sweden - - - adviser to government on matters concerning the toxicity Syria - - - of chemicals—for its consideration. Turkey 10 - 10 Asked by The Countess of Mar Uganda - - - Ukraine - - - To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the United Arab Emirates 10 - 10 Surface Residue Study undertaken for the Department United States 530 30 560 for Transport by the Institute of Occupational Uzbekistan - - - Medicine, Edinburgh, which found concentrations Yemen - - - of mono-orthocresylphosphate (MOCP) at around Zimbabwe - - - three times the level of tri-orthocresylphosphate No location recorded 40 350 390 (This includes (TOCP) in airborne measurements, accords with personnel on the statement from the manufacturers of the oils, maternity leave) ExxonMobil, that the level of MOCP is 600,000 Grand Total 162,430 17,370 179,800 times higher than TOCP. [HL1745]

Notes: UK regular forces includes all trained and untrained To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether tri- personnel. Gurkhas, full time reserve personnel, and mobilised cresylphosphate (TCP) was found in 23 per cent of reservists are excluded. flights tested during the Cranfield air monitoring study; at what levels it was found; and what are the Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, numbers ending in five occupational exposure limits for TCP in enclosed have been rounded to the nearest 20 to prevent systematic bias. pressurised spaces. [HL1747] “-” denotes zero or rounded to zero. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they The UK regular forces figures represent the number of service are aware that the UK’s leading aircraft engine personnel that are stationed at that location. This may differ manufacturer has claimed that “toxic cabin air” is from the actual number of people working at that location at that its sixth biggest engine problem; and what measures time eg due to deployments. are being taken to rectify the problem. [HL1748] WA 133 Written Answers[24 JULY 2012] Written Answers WA 134

Earl Attlee: The information available was published The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord in the Cranfield University report of May 2011 and Sassoon): The joint oversight board for the Funding the Institute of Occupational Medicine (IOM) report for Lending Scheme will be co-chaired by the Bank of of June 2012. The department has referred all the England’s Executive Director of Markets and the Chief research it has commissioned on cabin air quality to Economic Adviser to HM Treasury. There will be an the Committee on Toxicity (COT) which is the additional member each from the Bank and the Treasury: independent adviser to government on matters concerning the Bank’s Head of Sterling Markets Division and the the toxicity of chemicals. The next step is for the COT Treasury’s Director of Financial Services. Other Bank to consider this work. and Treasury officials will be invited as required.

Aviation: Birmingham/Amritsar Flights Bats Question Questions Asked by Lord King of West Bromwich Asked by Lord Marlesford To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government what conclusions they have made of (1) the social impact, and (2) the they draw from the recent Leeds University research impact on the economy of the number of flights into the effectiveness of four artificial bat bridges between Birmingham airport and Amritsar airport constructed over roads in the north of England. in India. [HL1750] [HL1698]

Earl Attlee: The Government have made no such Earl Attlee: The Highways Agency acknowledges assessment. The UK/India Air services agreement allows the value of the work undertaken by Leeds University the airlines of both sides to operate any number of regarding bat bridges, published on an online peer- services between Birmingham and Amritsar. Officials reviewed open access journal in June 2012. The Highways from the Department for Transport raised the possibility Agency only installs bat mitigation measures where of a Birmingham-Amritsar service in their most recent absolutely essential. The agency will continue to keep discussions with the Indian Ministry of Civil Aviation. its policy regarding bat bridges under review and is However, decisions on what services to operate are a currently working with Natural England on proposals commercial matter for the airlines concerned. to look at the effectiveness of this and other appropriate mitigation measures. Banks: Iceland Asked by Lord Marlesford Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the Asked by Lord Laird location and cost of each of the bat bridges completed in England and Wales in the past five years; and To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to what studies have been made of the cost-effectiveness the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 25 June of each bridge. [HL1699] (WS 1), whether minutes of the 2 September 2008 meeting between the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Icelandic Minister of Business Affairs, and the Earl Attlee: The table below provides details regarding chairman of the supervisory authority for the Icelandic which roads the Highways Agency has provided bat financial sector were produced; and if so, whether mitigation on during the past five years, the number of the commitment to guarantee the deposits of Icelandic mitigation measures applied, and the respective cost. banks in full beyond the maximum amount of £35,000 was recorded. [HL1743] Scheme No Total Cost Status

A38 Dobwalls Bypass 2 £300,000 Constructed The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord A590 High and Low 1 £84,000 Constructed Sassoon): Treasury Ministers and officials held frequent Newton Bypass discussions with the Icelandic Government and A69 Haydon Bypass 1 £60,000 Constructed supervisory authority for the Icelandic financial sector A595 Parton to 1 £34,000 Constructed during 2008. As with previous administrations, it is Lillyhall Improvement not the Government’s practice to provide minutes of these meetings. All elements of a scheme are subject to appraisal in line with published guidance and to specific value Banks: Lending management requirements throughout the project lifecycle. A review is undertaken of the costs, benefits and other Question predicted impacts (including environmental) at key Asked by Lord Myners stages, to ensure benefits are optimised and costs challenged. Comparisons are also made with other To ask Her Majesty’s Government who are the projects so that decisions take account of the best members of the joint Bank of England HM Treasury available evidence. Consideration is also given to this Oversight Board monitoring the Funding for Lending at the end of projects so that lessons learnt can be Scheme. [HL1791] applied in the future. WA 135 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 136

The Highways Agency has published a report titled deferred payment scheme for residential care, in the A Review of Bat Mitigation in Relation to Highway light of the progress report Caring for our Severance. The report is available on the Highways Future. [HL1653] Agency website. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the risks There is no central list of information relating to of longevity would be managed under the proposed bat mitigation on local authority roads. national deferred payment scheme for residential The Government do not hold information on the care. [HL1654] cost, location and cost-effectiveness of bat mitigation in Wales as this is a devolved matter and the responsibility To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of the Welsh Assembly Government. expect to offer a no negative-equity guarantee under the proposed national deferred payment scheme for Asked by Lord Marlesford residential care. [HL1655] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they bat bridges are under construction or proposed in expect the proposed national deferred payment scheme England and Wales; and what is the proposed location for residential care will interact with equity release and estimated cost of each. [HL1700] products. [HL1656]

Earl Attlee: The Highways Agency currently has no bat mitigation measures under construction on its The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department projects. of Health (Earl Howe): The department will engage There are six proposed bat mitigation measures on with the care sector including financial services on the Highways Agency A11 Fiveways to Thetford how the universal deferred payments scheme will work. improvement scheme. It is proposed that these will be This will include what interest or charges are sited on the All between Gibsons Lodge War Memorial appropriate, as well has how financial risk will be and Elvedon Gap. The estimated total cost for the managed. proposals is £240,000. We will take account of potential impacts on the There is no central list of information relating to equity release market. bat mitigation on local authority roads. The coalition Government do not hold information on the construction, cost and location of bat mitigation Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and in Wales as this is a devolved matter and the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government. Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Asked by Lord Marlesford Question Asked by The Countess of Mar To ask Her Majesty’s Government what obligations there are on the Government to construct bridges To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Ministry for bats over new roads where these have been of Defence categorises chronic fatigue syndrome/ recommended by Natural England; what consideration myalgic encephalomyelitis as a psychiatric or mental is given to the opportunity cost of each bridge in health disorder on the British Army Health deciding whether the construction of a bridge is Questionnaire (RG Form 8), when the World Health justified; and whether the Highways Agency is able Organisation ICD 10 categorises it as a neurological to construct a new road without the installation of condition under G93.3 and the UK Department of a recommended bat bridge. [HL1701] Health has confirmed that there is no other ICD category for the condition. [HL1749] Earl Attlee: The Highways Agency is responsible for ensuring it meets its legal obligations towards protected species. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry The Highways Agency endeavours to avoid or reduce of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The current version the impact on such species through effective scheme of the British Army Health Questionnaire, Recruiting design. Where additional mitigation measures are required, Group Form 8 (RG 8), which has been in use by the agency seeks to ensure these are directly proportionate applicants to the regular Army since 2008, does not to the importance and the scale of the potential impacts. assign categories to any medical condition but instead Wire bat bridges have been constructed where a significant lists conditions which are then verified by the applicant’s impact on bats is identified and other mitigation measures GP. are not able to be implemented. However, until recently, applicants to the Territorial Army (TA) completed an older, self-certified version Care Homes: Deferred Payment Scheme of the RG 8 (dated 2004), which categorised chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis as a Questions psychiatric or mental disorder. This was consistent Asked by Lord German with advice in place from the World Health Organisation International Classification of Diseases, which allowed To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals clinicians to categorise patients who came under the they have for the level of interest local authorities broad category of chronic fatigue syndrome, under will be able to charge for the proposed national either psychiatry or neurology. WA 137 Written Answers[24 JULY 2012] Written Answers WA 138

This older version of RG 8 has now been withdrawn the table. It is not possible to identify the class of drug and since April 2012 all TA applicants, like their involved from the police recorded crime statistics collected regular counterparts, now complete the current RG 8 by the Home Office. version dated 2008. Drug offences recorded by the police in Lincolnshire Year Number of offences Courts: Sentencing 19961 185 Question 19971 235 Asked by Lord Ramsbotham 2, 3 1998-99 1,229 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice 1999-00 975 on assessing maturity is provided in guidelines for 2000-01 906 [HL1681] sentencers and court report writers. 2001-02 1,116 4

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord 2002-03 1,060 McNally): Courts must follow the sentencing guidelines 2003-04 1,061 published by the Sentencing Council which direct the 2004-05 951 court to take maturity into account when making 2005-06 1,239 sentencing decisions, where it affects the responsibility 2006-07 1,421 of the offender. When sentencing young offenders the 2007-08 1,488 court must follow the Sentencing Guidelines Council’s 2008-09 1,735 “Overarching Principles—Sentencing Youths” which 2009-10 1,593 contains guidance on considering maturity. No specific 2010-11 1,574 national advice has been given to court report writers in probation trusts or youth offending teams on assessing 2011-12 1,543 maturity. However, pre-sentence reports cover areas 1. Trafficking in controlled drugs offences only. such as family and personal relationships, thinking 2. The police recorded crime coverage was extended and the and behaviour which can be drawn upon by courts counting rules changed in 1998-99. Data before and after that when considering maturity. date are not directly comparable. 3. Possession of controlled drug offences were introduced in 1998-99. Courts: Vulnerable Witnesses, Victims and 4. The National Crime Recording Standard was introduced nationally in 2002-03 and police recorded crime figures before Defendants and after that date are not directly comparable. Question Asked by Lord Bradley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate Crime: Knife Crime they have made of the cost of extending the provision Question of special measures currently available to vulnerable witnesses and victims in court proceedings to vulnerable Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark defendants. [HL1692] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many incidents of knife crime were recorded in Lincolnshire The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord in each year from 1996 up to the past year for which McNally): There are no plans to extend the provision records are available. [HL1866] of special measures currently available to victims and witnesses in court proceedings to vulnerable defendants. Courts already provide a range of measures to meet The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): the needs of vulnerable defendants to ensure a fair Data for selected offences involving the use of a knife trial. or sharp instrument are collected by the Home Office. Data for these selected offences were first collected in 2007-08 and are provided for Lincolnshire police in Crime: Drugs the table. Question Data for 2007-08 are not comparable with those Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark shown for latter years due to an expansion in the number of offences covered. In 2007-08, the offences To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many covered are, attempted murder, grievous bodily harm incidents of drug offences were recorded in (GBH) with intent, GBH without intent and robbery. Lincolnshire, according to class of drug, in each In 2008/09, the coverage was expanded to include year from 1996 up to the last year for which records actual bodily harm (ABH), threats to kill, sexual are available. [HL1868] assault and rape offences. Homicide figures in the table are taken from the The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Homicide Index. Figures for 2011-12 for knife and The available information relates to drug offences sharp instrument homicides are due to be published in recorded by the police in Lincolnshire and is given in January 2013. WA 139 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 140

Knife and sharp instrument offences recorded by the police for selected Furthermore, last month the Government announced offences in Lincolnshire1,2 a £15 million fund to improve safety for cyclists outside Numbers London, by tackling dangerous junctions. This was in Total selected addition to the £15 million fund awarded to Transport Total selected offences including for London in March for the same purpose. Year offences Homicide 3 homicide3

2007-08 71 3 74 2008-094 169 2 171 Data Protection 2009-10 176 2 178 Question 2010-11 169 3 172 Asked by Lord Harris of Haringey 2011-12 141 - -

1. Police recorded knife and sharp instrument offences data are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment submitted via an additional special collection. Proportions of they have made of the standards of data security in offences involving the use of a knife or sharp instrument local government. [HL1871] presented in this table are calculated based on figures submitted in this special collection. Other offences exist that are not shown in this table that may include the use of a knife or sharp The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department instrument. for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): 2. In this table offences involving a knife refers to the use of a It is primarily for local authorities to ensure they have knife or sharp instrument. the standards in place to maintain data security. In 3. Homicide offences are those currently recorded by the police January 2012 the Permanent Secretary, Sir Bob Kerslake, as at 18 October 2011 and are subject to revision as cases are and the Information Commissioner, Christopher Graham, dealt with by the police and by the courts, or as further wrote to local authority chief executives emphasising information becomes available. 2011-12 figures will be available the importance of good information governance. in January 2013. 4. The collection was expanded in 2008-09 to also include actual bodily harm (ABH), threats to kill, sexual assault and rape offences. Therefore figures are not comparable with those Drones offences recorded in 2007-08. Question “-” indicates that data are not available. Asked by Lord Bates To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Cyclists: Deaths and Injuries policy on the use of unmanned armed drones outside Question Afghanistan against terrorist suspects. [HL1573] Asked by Lord Berkeley The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Her Majesty’s they have made of the number of cyclists killed or Government do not use armed remotely piloted air seriously injured on roads in Great Britain in 2011; systems against terrorist suspects outside Afghanistan. and what action they are taking to reduce the However, UK personnel flew armed remotely piloted number of such deaths and injuries. [HL1780] air systems missions against Gaddafi’s forces in Libya in 2011, in support of the NATO humanitarian mission authorised under UNSCR resolution 1973. Earl Attlee: The number of pedal cyclists killed as a result of a collision on the road fell by 4% in Great Britain, from 111 in 2010 to 107 in 2011. However, the Energy: Prices number of pedal cyclists seriously injured in a road accident rose by 16% in Great Britain, from 2,660 in Question 2010 to 3,085 in 2011. Asked by Lord Judd Since 2005, our statistics have highlighted that the number of pedal cyclists killed or seriously injured as To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they a result of a collision on a road in Great Britain has will place in the Library of both Houses the results been on a continuous upward trend, with the largest of their most recent research into the willingness to year-on-year increase occurring between 2010 and adopt RIIO–T1 (Revenue = Incentives + Innovation 2011 (15%). A variety of factors may contribute to + Outputs) proposals for non-fast-track transmission changes in the number of killed or seriously injured companies alongside the proposals themselves. accidents, including the 13% growth in pedal cyclists [HL1770] traffic observed between 2005 and 2011. Last year the Government set up a Cycling Stakeholder The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Forum and safety sub-group which comprises of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): The representatives from cycling groups, motoring and RIIO-T1 price control is a matter for Ofgem, as the freight organisations, the Association of Chief Police independent regulator, and the network companies. Officers and local authorities. Good progress is being We have not undertaken any research into the willingness made on coming up with actions to improve cycle to adopt RIIO-T1 proposals. Ofgem will publish its safety. RIIO-T1 initial proposals for National Grid (the only WA 141 Written Answers[24 JULY 2012] Written Answers WA 142 non-fast-tracked transmission company) on 27 July. Firearms: Licensing We will ensure copies are placed in the Library of both Houses when available. Question Asked by The Earl of Shrewsbury EU: Taxation To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether guidance Question issued by HM Treasury on calculating fees charged for firearms and explosives licences is mandatory or Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch advisory for the Northern Ireland Executive; and whether advice has recently been sought by, or To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they did provided to, the Northern Ireland Executive on not reply to the letter from the Chairman of the that guidance. [HL1723] House of Lords European Union Committee dated 20 June, requesting a response to the Committee’s conclusion that “If, as is likely, the directive creating a Euro area financial transaction tax equates the Earl Attlee: The issuing of licences in respect of UK with third countries, there would still be very firearms and explosives are functions that are exercised significant effects on the UK financial sector”, in by the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) and time for the debate in the House on 11 July.[HL1570] the Department of Justice (DoJ). The noble Earl may therefore wish to direct his question to the PSNI and DoJ. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): I regret that the Government did not respond to the letter dated 20 June 2012 from the Chair of the House of Lords European Union Committee within the agreed timeframe of 10 working days. This was Government: Ministerial Visits partly to ensure that the response reflected latest Question developments following the Economic and Financial Affairs Council on 22 June and the European Council Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead on 29 June. The Financial Secretary sent his response To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the to the Chair of the Committee’s letter on 16 July. Prime Minister met representatives of the Rohingya Muslim minority during his recent visit to Fire and Rescue Services: Funding Burma. [HL1670] Questions Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Prime Minister, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment my right honourable friend the Member for Witney they have made of the Association of Metropolitan (Mr Cameron) did indeed meet representatives of the Fire and Rescue Authorities’ submission Potential Rohingya community, along with other representatives Impact of the 2013–15 Finance Settlement; and from ethnic minority groups, during his visit to Burma whether they plan to take any action as a result. in April and listened to their concerns first hand. [HL1488] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the proposed reduction in funding for the Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service; how this compares with Gypsies and Travellers the average nationwide cut in funding; and why a flat rate reduction, comparable to the police service, Question has not been made for fire and rescue services. Asked by Baroness Whitaker [HL1519] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 12 July for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): (WA 276–7), what data on the numbers of Gypsy The Association of Metropolitan Fire and Rescue and Irish Traveller patients are available from the Authorities submission has been noted. sections on healthcare, including mental healthcare, in the Count Me In Census. [HL1622] On the 17 July 2012 the Government published the Technical Consultation on Business Rates Retention detailing proposals for local authority funding from 2013-14. Responses are welcomed from all fire and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department rescue authorities by the closing date of 24 September of Health (Earl Howe): The ethnic categories referred 2012. All representations will be considered before to in the Count Me In Census are those used by the final decisions are made. Provisional fire and rescue Office for National Statistics in its 2001 census of the authority funding baselines will be announced at the general population of England and Wales. The final usual time—in late November or early December this census was conducted in 2010. There was no category year. specifically for Gypsy and Irish Travellers. WA 143 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 144

Haemophilia Society appropriate treatment and care of people with specific diseases and conditions within the National Health Question Service in England and Wales. Their implementation Asked by Lord Roberts of Conwy is not mandatory. However, clinicians are expected to consider clinical To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they guidelines when exercising their clinical judgment, as provide funding to the Haemophilia Society and are NHS commissioners when commissioning services pay any of its salaried staff. [HL1551] for their local populations. Existing guidance published by NICE, in addition The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department to other sources of accredited information, will inform of Health (Earl Howe): The department has provided the development of a NICE Quality Standard for the following funding to the Haemophilia Society over multiple sclerosis. The Quality Standard will be used the past two financial years. by commissioners to ensure that they are commissioning 2010-11—£140,709; and high quality services and by providers to reflect on current service provision, identify areas for improvement 2011-12—£100,000. and demonstrate the quality of their services in quality The funding was provided for specific projects, not accounts. for the salaries of staff, although the society may utilise the funding on salaries of the staff directly involved in the projects. Health: Osteoporosis Health: Coeliac Disease Question Questions Asked by Lord Black of Brentwood Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will take action to increase the number of points To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they allocated to the osteoporosis indicators in the Quality expect the Oxfordshire Primary Care Trust Clinical and Outcomes Framework for 2013–14. [HL1771] Commissioning Group to make a decision on whether to de-list gluten-free foods for people with coeliac disease. [HL1801] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the of Health (Earl Howe): There are no plans to increase meeting at which the Oxfordshire Primary Care the value of rewards to general practitioners (GPs) for Trust Clinical Commissioning Group makes a decision achieving the current osteoporosis indicators in the Quality on whether to de-list gluten-free foods for people and Outcomes Framework (QOF). Recommendations with coeliac disease will be held in public. [HL1802] to the Government on the allocation of points between indicators in the QOF are based on the outcome of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department confidential discussions on the GP contract between of Health (Earl Howe): We understand this issue will NHS Employers and the General Practitioners Committee be considered by the Oxfordshire Clinical Commissioning of the British Medical Association. Group shadow governing body at its August board meeting and that a decision will be made at that time. The decision will be made public following the board meeting. Meetings of the OCCG board are not currently Health: Podiatry held in public, as it is a shadow governing body. Questions Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester Health: Multiple Sclerosis To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether Question housebound people with an identified clinical need for podiatric care are entitled to receive care in their Asked by Baroness Harris of Richmond own homes where appropriate. [HL1719] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many has been made of the extent to which guideline home visits by podiatrists were commissioned by CG8 from the National Institute for Health and the National Health Service in each of the last five Clinical Excellence on the management of multiple years; and whether such services are regarded as an sclerosis in primary and secondary care is being essential element of NHS provision. [HL1720] implemented. [HL1710]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): Clinical guidelines published of Health (Earl Howe): I refer the noble Lord to my by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Written Answer on 23 May 2012 (Official Report, Excellence (NICE) provide recommendations on the col. WA 69). WA 145 Written Answers[24 JULY 2012] Written Answers WA 146

Internet: Broadband The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): Information on the allocations Question made to primary care trusts (PCTs), summed to strategic Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon health authorities (SHAs) in 2010-11 is provided in the following table. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the building of a rural broadband network is being Allocations to PCTs in each SHA, 2010-11 delayed by the European Union; and, if so, what £000s are the reasons for their doing so. [HL1467] North East SHA 4,881,900 North West SHA 12,877,161 Baroness Garden of Frognal: The Government have Yorkshire and the Humber SHA 8,937,888 had extensive discussions with the European Commission East Midlands SHA 7,002,193 about our request for approval of an umbrella state West Midlands SHA 9,274,168 aid notification for broadband projects, including a East of England SHA 8,905,458 meeting that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, London SHA 14,421,853 Media and Sport had recently with the Competition South East Coast SHA 7,060,844 Commissioner on this subject. The Commission has South Central SHA 6,080,055 been concerned in particular to ensure that the provisions South West SHA 8,364,858 for wholesale access to broadband networks meet its England 87,806,378 requirements. We have provided the Commission with all the information that it has asked for and I hope it Source: Resource Allocation Team will be able to give a positive decision shortly. Notes: 1.Allocations are made to PCTs. These have been summed to give the total for PCTs in each SHA. NHS: Clinical Commissioning Groups 2. Figures are recurrent allocations and non-recurrent allocations Question for primary dental services, pharmaceutical services and general ophthalmic services. Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath 3. SHAs are those as at December 2009 when 2010-11 allocations were issued. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the Oxfordshire Primary Care Trust Clinical National Health Service performance is reported Commissioning Group discharges its accountability regularly through the publication of The Quarter, for rationing decisions to the local community. which sets out NHS performance against the requirements [HL1803] of the annual Operating Framework. The most recent quarterly data were published in the NHS chief executive’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department annual report, The Year, which is available on the of Health (Earl Howe): Once established, clinical website at www.dh.gov.uk/health/2012/06/the-year- commissioning groups will be required to involve 2011_12/. individuals to whom services are being or may be In addition, since December 2011 the department provided in the commissioning process. Specifically, has published data against 34 indicators in the NHS individuals must be involved in planning commissioning Outcomes Framework, and of those indicators arrangements, and in developing and considering 23 currently include data for all or part of 2010-11. proposals for changes in those arrangements, where The department will be updating the remaining indicators those proposals would have an impact on how services for 2010-11 as and when the data become available in are provided or the range of health services available, readiness for the framework coming into force from and in decisions that would likewise have a significant April 2013. Data for NHS Outcomes Framework impact. indicators can be accessed via the NHS Information Weunderstand the Oxfordshire Clinical Commissioning Centre’s indicator portal: indicators.ic.nhs.uk/webview/ Group has involved Oxfordshire’s Health Overview In future years, the Secretary of State will be required and Scrutiny Committee in this decision, and, with its to publish an annual report on the performance of the support, undertook an extensive public engagement health service in England. This was introduced by the exercise from January to March 2012. Health and Social Care Act 2012, and the first annual report was published on 4 July 2012. The NHS Outcomes Framework and the Public Health Outcomes Framework NHS: Funding will give more information about the overall performance Question of the health service. Asked by Baroness Quin The annual report is available at: www.dh.gov.uk/ health/2012/07/annual-report/. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the Local Health Profiles are produced annually by the financial allocations made to the National Health Public Health Observatories in England working in Service regions in England in 2010–11; what partnership, with funding from the department. They information is available about health service provide a snapshot of the overall health of the population performance outcomes in that period; and what is of each local authority in England, and highlight the most recent information about the health of potential problems through comparison with other regional populations. [HL1795] areas and with the national average. WA 147 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 148

The profiles draw together information to present a Railways: East Coast picture of health in each local area in a user-friendly format. They include indicators across five domains: Question our communities; children’s and young people’s health; Asked by Lord Palmer adults’ health and lifestyle; diseases and poor health; life expectancy and causes of death. They are a valuable To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they tool for local government and health services in helping intend to re-franchise the main east coast rail line; them to understand their community’s needs, so that and, if so, when. [HL1694] they can work to improve people’s health and reduce health inequalities. Earl Attlee: A consultation on the new InterCity The latest set of health profiles were published on East Coast Franchise commenced on Tuesday 26 June 26 June and are available at the following link: and closes on 18 September 2012. The Department for www.healthprofiles.info/. Transport will produce a summary of the consultation responses alongside an invitation to tender which we expect to be published in January 2013. Our plan is Olympic Games 2012 that the winning bidder will be announced in August 2013 with the new franchise due to start in December Question 2013. Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the Railways: Gatwick Express recent announcement by the Minister for Sport Questions about access to the London 2012 Olympic Games for visitors from overseas, whether representatives Asked by Lord Laird of Israel will be welcome. [HL1523] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the operators of the Gatwick The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Express concerning (1) last-minute cancellations of Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Representatives of services due to drivers not reporting for work, and Israel will, of course, be welcome to the London 2012 (2) replacing ticket machines at the barriers so that Olympic and Paralympic Games. they accept all types of automatic tickets. [HL1738] All international visitors applying to enter the United Kingdom are subject to the UK immigration controls. Earl Attlee: There have been no specific discussions Anyone who is currently subject to a European Union with Southern Railways concerning last minute or United Nations travel ban will not be able to come cancellations of services due to drivers not reporting to the Games. In addition, entry will be refused where for work, which is an operational matter for the company. an individual’s presence at the Games or in the UK Discussions concerning ticket gates and machines at would not be conducive to the public good. Where Gatwick Airport station have been limited to Southern’s there is independent, reliable and credible evidence implementation of its franchise agreement contractual that an individual has committed human right abuses, obligations, which it proposed as part of its franchise the individual will not normally be permitted to enter proposition bid to the Department for Transport. the UK. Further to this we do not comment on Asked by Lord Laird individual cases. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 20 June Overseas Aid concerning the Gatwick Express (WA 304), when reliability, cleanliness and customer service on the Question Gatwick Express was most recently monitored by Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon the Department for Transport, and what was the result; and whether they consider that the service is To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much is prepared for traffic generated by the 2012 Olympic the United Kingdom’s contribution to the £10 billion Games. [HL1739] development aid funds pledged to Afghanistan, and whether that sum will be met from the overseas Earl Attlee: Officials at the Department for Transport aid budget. [HL1677] monitor Southern’s performance against its contract on a four weekly basis. This review includes operational Baroness Northover: The Secretary of State for performance, service quality and the delivery of committed International Development announced that the UK obligations. Southern is currently meeting its contractual would maintain its current funding levels of £178 million performance obligations. a year for the next five years up to 2017 and will The department has recently agreed a number of continue to support Afghanistan’s development needs initiatives for Southern to pursue with a view to improving through its transformation decade to 2025 as long as its National Passenger Survey results, requiring the Afghan Government continue to deliver crucial expenditure of over £500,000 on different schemes reforms and results for their people. This assistance including Gatwick Express services. In addition, the will be met from the overseas aid budget. Department for Transport has agreed an Olympic WA 149 Written Answers[24 JULY 2012] Written Answers WA 150

Services Delivery Plan with Southern which provides Schools: Creationism for additional trains and customer service arrangements to be put in place during the Games. Question Asked by Lord Krebs To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Roads: Shared Space Schemes have approved the establishment of a free school, Question Exemplar Academy, by a creationist group.[HL1725] Asked by Lord Flight The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Government have monitored and analysed the potential negative have approved the application by Exemplar—Newark effects of shared space road schemes being installed Business Academy to progress to the implementation in town centres in England, including the extent to stage of the free schools process. It is not a creationist which they increase the risks of crossing the road group. It is composed of local parents and community for those who are disabled, blind or partially sighted, members, including Christians, non-Christians and the elderly and parents with children. [HL1729] secularists. All free school applications are subject to a rigorous assessment and a thorough interview process. We are Earl Attlee: In October 2011, the Department for clear that the teaching of creationism as a valid scientific Transport published guidance on the design and provision theory, in science or any other subject, should not of shared space schemes. It focuses heavily on designing occur in any state funded school and free schools are for disabled people in general with a particular emphasis specifically prohibited from doing so by virtue of their on the needs of blind or partially sighted people. This funding agreements. guidance is available at www.dft.gov.uk/publications/ Itn-01-11. The research underpinning the guidance found no Scotland Act 2012 evidence that shared space schemes, including those Question with a level surface, as implemented in the UK, have more casualties than conventional layouts, or indeed Asked by Lord McCluskey that particular groups, including disabled people, are injured more frequently following their introduction. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they It is for local authorities to monitor and analyse the intend to make an order or orders under Section 44 performance of their own shared space schemes. of the Scotland Act 2012 to bring into force Sections 14, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 of that Act. [HL1718]

The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace Schools: Attendance and Attainment of Tankerness): Section 14 of the Scotland Act 2012 Question came into force on 3 July 2012 by virtue of article 2 of the Scotland Act 2012 (Commencement No.1) Order Asked by Baroness Whitaker 2012 (S.I. 2012/1710). The Government are working To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light with the Scottish Government, the Crown Office and of the report by Partnerships for Schools on the the courts to enable Sections 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38 of Building Schools for the Future programme, whether the Scotland Act 2012 to be brought into force as soon they will assess the contribution of design under as is practical. the programme to improvements in school attendance in 73% of the schools sampled and to improvements in GCSE results at a rate above the national average in Taxation: Avoidance 62% of the schools sampled. [HL1621] Question Asked by Baroness Quin The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): School attendance To ask Her Majesty’s Government on what evidence and pupil attainment are influenced by a number of the Prime Minister’s spokesperson based his statement, factors, particularly the quality of teaching, and it reported in The Guardian on Tuesday 10 April, that would be very difficult to assess what contribution some wealthy individuals were avoiding paying tax design alone has made to improvements in either. by donating money to charities that did not “in all cases do a great amount of charitable work”. The department will continue to collect and publish [HL1574] termly attendance data and annual GCSE results for all maintained schools and academies in England. The Education Funding Agency is also committed to The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord monitoring the performance of school buildings Sassoon): The vast majority of charities are bona fide constructed in the new Priority Schools Building and make an important contribution to society.However, Programme, including the effects they have on users. the generous nature of tax reliefs available to charities WA 151 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 152 and their donors means that, unfortunately, Her Majesty’s on the post millennium development goals process Revenue and Customs (HMRC) sees cases of fraud to be chaired by the Prime Minister, will be and abuse. aligned. [HL1765] The Government have been active in their response to tax avoidance schemes and can and do act as soon Baroness Northover: The Government are taking a as they become aware of them. Their commitment to proactive approach to ensuring that Rio+20 follow up reducing abusive avoidance schemes has been further and the Prime Minister’s work on the United Nations enhanced by their recent investment of over £900 million (UN) Secretary General’s High Level Panel on post-2015 in HMRC for increased compliance activity. development goals are coherent and co-ordinated. Michael Anderson, the Prime Minister’s appointed UK Honours envoy on post-2015 development goals, has responsibility for co-ordinating this work across Whitehall. Questions The Government are also working actively through Asked by Lord Jopling the United Kingdom (UK) Mission in New York and with other European Governments and the European To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Commission to ensure that the European Union (EU)’s the Written Answer by Lord Wallace of Saltaire on engagement with these two processes is coherent and 30 January (WA 298–300), whether they will provide streamlined. the same statistics for the 2012 Birthday Honours list showing whether there was any reduction in the proportion of honours awarded to professors compared Young Offenders to the previous honours list. [HL1660] Questions Asked by Lord Ramsbotham Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The information requested concerning the number of honours recipients at To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they knighthood and CBE levels described as holding the have calculated how much money would be saved title of professor is in the public domain, and can be by extending Youth Offending Service Custody found in the London Gazette at www.london-gazette.co.uk. Pathfinders to the young offenders institutions Asked by Lord Jopling estate. [HL1684] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord the Written Answer by Lord Wallace of Saltaire on McNally): Pathfinder is a two-year project that began 13 February (WA 140–1), whether they consider in October 2011. Four Pathfinder areas have been that the distribution of top honours is fair, in the provided with financial incentives to deliver reductions light of 31.6% of knighthoods being awarded to in their use of custody. Pathfinder monitors an area’s professors since the 2007 Birthday Honours List. use of under 18 custody including in under 18 young [HL1661] offenders institutions. Given the relatively early stage of the initiative, it is premature to draw conclusions Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Each of the specialist about potential savings. An independent process evaluation honours committees is allocated an annual quota of has been commissioned to report on the implementation available awards at each level. As stated in the Written and delivery of Pathfinder. This will report in 2014. Answer given by Lord Wallace of Saltaire on 13 February Asked by Lord Ramsbotham 2012, the criteria for awards at knight and dame level are that nominees should be pre-eminent in their field, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether there recognised by their peers and making an impact at are any plans to increase the number and use of national level. Of the nine independent honours young offender attendance centres across England committees, three (education, health, and science and and Wales. [HL1685] technology) account for 34% of the available awards at knight and dame level in each of the Prime Minister’s Lord McNally: We are reviewing our commissioning lists, and by the nature of their specialist subject areas strategy for attendance centres, with the aim of ensuring consider a large number of people with academic that centres are fully adapted to local requirements. In qualifications. Given that the title of professor is accorded response to local assessments of need, we are planning to only the most senior of academics and practitioners, to open new senior attendance centres in Cheshire and it is perhaps unsurprising that the number of top level West Mercia and a junior centre in Burnley. of awards includes this percentage of people who Asked by Lord Ramsbotham declare themselves to carry that title. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have undertaken, or are aware of, any research to UN: Rio+20 identify the cost-effectiveness of young offender Question attendance centres. [HL1686] Asked by Lord Judd Lord McNally: Research into the cost-effectiveness To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps of one particular aspect of a sentence—such as an they are taking to ensure that the agreed follow-up attendance centre requirement in a community order work to the Rio+20 conference on sustainable or suspended sentence order—would not be easy to development, and the work in the UN committee undertake, as it would be difficult to isolate the effect WA 153 Written Answers[24 JULY 2012] Written Answers WA 154 of one requirement of an order that may also include Work to date has considered the effectiveness of one or more other requirements. Obtaining a statistically interventions for all adult offenders rather than targeting significant body of data is therefore not straightforward. the effectiveness for those aged 18-24. NOMS is developing While no research has been conducted into the link a specific commissioning strategy for young adult between attendance centre funding and re-offending, offenders and is currently examining both the impact work has been undertaken to establish the cost per of cognitive skills training with young adults and how offender of completing an attendance centre requirement. to prevent recreational drug use developing into drug This has enabled us to implement a performance dependency. The findings from this work will be shared management framework to deliver efficiencies. with commissioners and providers of offender services in due course. NOMS will also continue to work with providers to assist them in robustly evaluating existing Young Offenders: Interventions and innovative interventions in order to further develop Questions the evidence base for this group of offenders. Asked by Lord Ramsbotham Asked by Lord Ramsbotham To ask Her Majesty’s Government what actions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps have been taken by the Ministry of Justice and the have been taken to introduce interventions that National Offender Management Service to identify have been proved to work into all places in England what works in terms of interventions with young and Wales where young adults are held. [HL1683] adults aged 18 to 24. [HL1682]

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Lord McNally: The Government’s strategy for ensuring McNally): The Ministry of Justice and the National that the right interventions are provided in the right Offender Management Service are committed to prisons, including those holding young adults, is set evaluating offender management programmes and other out in the NOMS Commissioning Intentions discussion approaches to working with offenders in order to document published on 4 July and I will arrange for a improve understanding of what works to reduce copy to be placed in the House Library. We will take re-offending. proper account of the particular needs of young adults.

Tuesday 24 July 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Abortion...... 129 Gypsies and Travellers ...... 142

Armed Forces: Stations...... 130 Haemophilia Society...... 143

Assisted Dying...... 132 Health: Coeliac Disease ...... 143

Aviation: Air Quality ...... 132 Health: Multiple Sclerosis...... 143

Aviation: Birmingham/Amritsar Flights ...... 133 Health: Osteoporosis ...... 144

Banks: Iceland ...... 133 Health: Podiatry ...... 144

Banks: Lending...... 133 Internet: Broadband ...... 145

Bats...... 134 NHS: Clinical Commissioning Groups ...... 145

Care Homes: Deferred Payment Scheme...... 135 NHS: Funding ...... 145

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Olympic Games 2012 ...... 147 Myalgic Encephalomyelitis ...... 136 Overseas Aid...... 147 Courts: Sentencing...... 137 Railways: East Coast ...... 148 Courts: Vulnerable Witnesses, Victims and Defendants ... 137

Crime: Drugs ...... 137 Railways: Gatwick Express ...... 148

Crime: Knife Crime ...... 138 Roads: Shared Space Schemes ...... 149

Cyclists: Deaths and Injuries...... 139 Schools: Attendance and Attainment ...... 149

Data Protection ...... 140 Schools: Creationism ...... 150

Drones ...... 140 Scotland Act 2012...... 150

Energy: Prices ...... 140 Taxation: Avoidance ...... 150

EU: Taxation ...... 141 UK Honours ...... 151

Fire and Rescue Services: Funding ...... 141 UN: Rio+20 ...... 151

Firearms: Licensing ...... 142 Young Offenders...... 152

Government: Ministerial Visits ...... 142 Young Offenders: Interventions ...... 153 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL1467] ...... 145 [HL1585] ...... 130

[HL1488] ...... 141 [HL1621] ...... 149

[HL1519] ...... 141 [HL1622] ...... 142

[HL1523] ...... 147 [HL1623] ...... 129

[HL1551] ...... 143 [HL1624] ...... 129

[HL1570] ...... 141 [HL1626] ...... 132

[HL1573] ...... 140 [HL1653] ...... 136

[HL1574] ...... 150 [HL1654] ...... 136 Col. No. Col. No. [HL1655] ...... 136 [HL1725] ...... 150

[HL1656] ...... 136 [HL1729] ...... 149

[HL1660] ...... 151 [HL1738] ...... 148

[HL1661] ...... 151 [HL1739] ...... 148

[HL1670] ...... 142 [HL1743] ...... 133

[HL1677] ...... 147 [HL1744] ...... 132

[HL1681] ...... 137 [HL1745] ...... 132

[HL1682] ...... 153 [HL1747] ...... 132 [HL1748] ...... 132 [HL1683] ...... 154 [HL1749] ...... 136 [HL1684] ...... 152 [HL1750] ...... 133 [HL1685] ...... 152 [HL1757] ...... 129 [HL1686] ...... 152 [HL1765] ...... 152 [HL1692] ...... 137 [HL1770] ...... 140 [HL1694] ...... 148 [HL1771] ...... 144 [HL1698] ...... 134 [HL1780] ...... 139 [HL1699] ...... 134 [HL1791] ...... 133 [HL1700] ...... 135 [HL1795] ...... 145 [HL1701] ...... 135 [HL1801] ...... 143

[HL1710] ...... 143 [HL1802] ...... 143

[HL1718] ...... 150 [HL1803] ...... 145

[HL1719] ...... 144 [HL1866] ...... 138

[HL1720] ...... 144 [HL1868] ...... 137

[HL1723] ...... 142 [HL1871] ...... 140 Volume 739 Tuesday No. 40 24 July 2012

CONTENTS

Tuesday 24 July 2012 Questions Nigeria ...... 593 Chilcot Committee: Intercept Evidence ...... 596 Finance: Loan Guarantee Scheme...... 598 Public and Commercial Services Union: Strike Action ...... 600 Arms Trade Treaty Negotiations Private Notice Question ...... 602 Procedure of the House Motion to Agree ...... 605 Five Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee ...... 608 Three Statutory Instruments Motions to Approve...... 609 House of Lords (Cessation of Membership) Bill [HL] Third Reading ...... 609 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] Third Reading ...... 610 Electoral Registration and Administration Bill Second Reading ...... 616 Grand Committee Local Government Finance Bill Committee (6th Day)...... GC 255 Written Answers...... WA 129