Thursday Volume 539 26 January 2012 No. 256

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 26 January 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 391 26 JANUARY 2012 392

Government introduced a scheme that was fundamentally House of Commons flawed. As with other issues, this Government are putting Labour’s mess right. Thursday 26 January 2012 Cathy Jamieson: Is not the truth of the matter that this episode has led to a frenzy of additional applications? The House met at half-past Ten o’clock There has been a 1,100% increase in the number of people trying to get systems installed in their homes in a short period of time. Businesses in my constituency tell PRAYERS me that that has caused chaos in the supply chain. Those systems also had to be installed at a time of extremely poor weather in Scotland. What does the [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Minister say in response to those points?

Chris Huhne: The hon. Lady conveniently omits to Oral Answers to Questions mention that the design flaw in the scheme introduced by the Leader of the Opposition ensured that there was absolutely no way of automatically reducing the tariffs in line with what was going on in the real world, despite ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the fact that other countries—Germany, for example—had introduced such schemes. All we had to do was find out was happening in Germany and model our scheme on The Secretary of State was asked— theirs. Did the Labour Government bother to learn those lessons? No. The result is that we have to clean up Photovoltaics the mess.

1. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): What Fiona O’Donnell: It is becoming uncomfortable watching recent representations he has received on his decision the Secretary of State trying to defend the indefensible. to reduce the feed-in tariff for solar PV. [91726] On 31 October, the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), told the House 12. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/ that the Government wanted to spread solar power as Co-op): What recent representations he has received on widely as possible. If that is true, why do the Government’s his decision to reduce the feed-in tariff for solar PV. plans exclude almost nine out of 10 households and [91743] anyone living in social housing from having solar power?

14. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): What Chris Huhne: I entirely disagree with the hon. Lady’s recent representations he has received on his decision analysis of what was proposed in the consultation paper. to reduce the feed-in tariff for solar PV. [91745] Apart from anything else, she completely ignores the possibility of improvement in the energy efficiency of The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change homes. Ensuring energy efficiency is one thing that we (Chris Huhne): Ministers and officials meet regularly are keen to do. with a range of stakeholders from the solar photovoltaic I simply remind Labour Members that the Leader of industry. Details of meetings between Department of the Opposition introduced a scheme at a cost of £7.9 billion. Energy and Climate Change Ministers and external That went directly to consumers, and there was no way organisations are published quarterly on the DECC whatever of controlling those costs. He so doubted the website. The recent consultation on feed-in tariffs for dynamism of the private sector that he predicted no solar PV closed on 23 December 2011. More than 2,300 commercial take-up of solar power in the first three responses were received and are being analysed prior to years of the scheme, even while solar costs were tumbling, the publication of a full Government response to the and he ignored the best practice of the German FITs consultation in the coming weeks. scheme and failed to include a system of automatic degression. All this Government are doing is clearing Mrs Glindon: The Secretary of State spent more than up the mess that Labour left behind. £66,000 of public money on legal fees, but he is refusing to accept the Appeal Court decision that his plan to cut Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): One unfortunate feed-in tariff subsidy is unlawful. As well as jeopardising knock-on effect of the solar dispute is a delay in the the future of the industry by fighting the Court ruling, review of FITs for small-scale hydro. Many planned how much more public money does he intend to waste? schemes on Argyll and Bute cannot go ahead until that uncertainty is resolved, which is causing severe problems Chris Huhne: I entirely reject the idea that there is no for businesses and community groups. Will my right future for the industry. The reality is that we would be hon. Friend please do all he can to end that uncertainty able to support at least twice as many installations at as soon as possible so that those vital small-scale hydro the new tariff rate as we could under the old one. schemes can go ahead? The hon. Lady asks about the costs of the legal cases. I merely point out to her that we are spending a few Chris Huhne: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who thousand pounds in order to save consumers £1.5 billion, has also raised this issue in correspondence. He is a which is what the cost would have been had we left the doughty champion for the interests of those of his case to run. The reality is that the previous Labour constituents who want to go ahead with micro-hydro 393 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 394 and other schemes. I can reassure him that the Government Chris Huhne: I realise that the right hon. Lady supported will not let problems with the solar feed-in tariff get in a different candidate for the leadership of her party the way. We want micro-hydro and other schemes to from the winning candidate; nevertheless, given her take off and will introduce proposals as soon as possible. repeated attempts effectively to undermine the former I hope to be able to do so in February. decisions of the Leader of the Opposition, as well as her failure to recognise their consequences, I would Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): The Minister may be merely remind her, as she now likes to lecture us about aware that there are hundreds of Harlow residents in the impact assessment, what the impact assessment social housing who were promised solar power panels, showed in February 2010. It is important that she but the new rate is too low for the scheme to be viable. should go back—as she wants to look at this—because Will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether he that impact assessment showed that the cost of the would consider a more generous community rate for the scheme introduced by the now Leader of the Opposition feed-in tariff, even if it was for only a few months? had a net present value of £8.6 billion, while the benefits had a net present value of £400 million. If she thinks that is the sort of policy making of which she is prepared Chris Huhne: The absolute key to what is happening to be proud, good luck to her. with solar panels is the collapse in the cost. The idea that something might not be attractive commercially today does not mean that it will not be so in pretty short Mr Speaker: Order. May I just say to the Secretary of order. What has been happening over the past 18 months State that that answer—about which he felt strongly—was is an enormous increase in the production capacity of too long? There must not be a repetition of that, and if China. Essentially, what has happened is that the Henry there is, I will cut it off. That is the end of it. Ford of solar panels—who happens to be Chinese these days—has introduced the Model T, and we are getting Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): The Secretary an enormous reduction in costs as a result of economies of State is right to say that the design of the scheme he of scale. inherited from Labour was flawed. However, by continuing with that scheme for 18 months, coupled with apparently poor legal advice, the implementation of FITs that he Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): When the cuts to has presided over has been somewhat chaotically managed solar were announced, the Minister of State, the hon. for consumers and businesses alike. I am concerned that Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) claimed a letter from the Minister of State says that if there is no that they would create jobs. Paragraph 73 of the impact action, proposals may have to be brought forward to assessment, signed off by the Minister on 2 November close the FITs scheme. What reassurance can the Secretary 2011, says that of State give that FITs will be put on a sustainable “there could be around 1,000 to 10,000 gross additional jobs in footing for the rest of this Parliament? this sector in the three years to 2014/15”. Can the Secretary of State confirm today that those Chris Huhne: I entirely reject the idea that we did not 1,000 to 10,000 jobs are not additional jobs, but the act to deal with this issue as soon as we were advised. total number that the industry will support, which, for a The problem with the design of the scheme was that it sector that currently employs nearly 30,000 people, was unable to cope with the dramatic fall in the cost of means tens of thousands of job losses? solar panels. That dramatic fall, the reason for which I have already described, became apparent over the past Chris Huhne: What is absolutely crucial for the sector year, and we acted as quickly as we could to deal with is that there should be a sustainable pathway for growth the situation. What is unforgivable is the fact that the in the future. What the right hon. Lady has completely present Leader of the Opposition failed to foresee, by failed to address is the fact that if we continued to looking at best practice internationally, how the scheme over-subsidise at the previous rate, we would have fewer should have been designed in the first place. than half the installations that we can afford to subsidise today with the new rate. It was not an accident that the Energy Bills British Photovoltaic Association intervened on our side in the courts, precisely as a result of that calculation. 2. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): What steps he is taking to help households to reduce Caroline Flint: Seven times I have asked the Minister their energy bills. [91727] of State what these cuts will mean for jobs; seven times he has tried to hide the fact that his cuts will put The Minister of State, Department of Energy and thousands of people out of work. According to his Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The coalition is taking figures, released on Friday, action to help consumers to reduce their bills. The “in the 2012/13 to 2014/15 period…the total number of gross Department of Energy and Climate Change has launched full-time equivalent jobs will be 1,000 to 10,000.” the “check, switch, insulate to save” campaign, which That is not additional jobs; that is the total number. was showcased in big energy week. That measure, together Nothing can hide the sheer incompetence of the with the new warm home discount, the winter fuel and Government’s handling of this. Is it not about time that cold weather payments, the carbon emissions reduction the Government stopped thinking about saving face, target and community energy saving programmes, the creating more uncertainty and wasting even more money Warm Front scheme and signposts on bills to the cheapest on more legal challenges, and sat down to work out how tariff information, will help hard-pressed consumers. we are going to put the industry on a sustainable However, the green deal will be the game-changer that footing? the country really needs. 395 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 396

Mr Bain: Does the Minister grasp the seriousness of which is an energy efficiency roll-out that will reduce the situation facing families across the country? The the amount of electricity and heating required in homes, average fuel bill is now £1,345 a year—an increase of but I will certainly be happy to look at her ideas. 48% in the last five years. When are the Government going to act to pare back the system of tariffs—the Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): According to an number of which has risen by 70 in the past year under answer that I received to a question just the other day, this Government—which discriminates against those the underspend is actually £32 million, so it has gone who use the least energy? up. We all know that soaring energy bills are contributing to the cost of living crisis afflicting millions of families. Gregory Barker: I am afraid that it was actually Millions of pensioners over the age of 75, who are the under the last Labour Government, when the present most susceptible to the cold weather and the least able Leader of the Opposition was Secretary of State, that to access the advantages of online energy deals, pay the number of tariffs went up to 400, an increase of more for their electricity and gas than they need to. 75%. We are now getting to grips with that, but if the Surely it is only fair that energy companies should hon. Gentleman wants to blame someone for the guarantee that elderly customers over the age of 75 proliferation of tariffs, he should blame the total inaction should be placed on the cheapest tariff for their gas and of the then Secretary of State. electricity. Will the Government ensure that the energy companies have access to the data that they will need in order to achieve that? Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): Does the Minister realise that he could help businesses, as well as households, Gregory Barker: As I said earlier, the number of to reduce their energy bills, by introducing mandatory tariffs proliferated by 75% in the last three years of the motion-sensitive lighting systems? That would reduce Labour Government, when they had the opportunity to the carbon intensity of our built environment and promote do something about this. We actually want everyone to the ability of many people to enjoy starry, starry nights. be on cheaper tariffs, but there is lots to do, because of the appalling inheritance from the last Government. We Gregory Barker: That is just the kind of technology want everyone to get a good deal, not just the over-75s, that will be brought into the reach of millions of homes and we are taking action to make that happen. by the green deal, and it is just the kind of innovation that we want to spur. We would also look at how we Kyoto Protocol might drive that by making amendments to consequential improvements. I am very interested in my hon. Friend’s ideas. 3. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): When he expects a decision to be taken on the EU target for carbon emission reductions under the second commitment Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): It is period of the Kyoto protocol. [91728] understood that there has been a significant underspend, of up to £30 million, in the Warm Front scheme, The Minister of State, Department of Energy and because DECC has made the eligibility criteria too Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The EU must submit strict and has not promoted the scheme. That means a target for the second commitment period of the Kyoto that up to 20% of the scheme’s funding could go unclaimed. protocol at the UN conference of parties at the end of Is it correct that there will be an underspend at the end the year in Qatar. There is a debate in the EU about of the financial year, and if so, what is the reason for it? whether to increase its 2020 emission reduction target from 20% to 30% from 1990 levels. The UK is a leading Gregory Barker: The hon. Lady is right; we are advocate of a 30% target. slightly behind. The unseasonably warm weather that we have had this winter, compared with the cold weather Caroline Dinenage: The Secretary of State has publicly last year, has meant that the number of applications has and consistently expressed his desire to see the EU 2020 been lower. However, I am in touch with the leaders of emissions reduction target increase to 30%, but what our big metropolitan authorities, and I have spoken to concrete action will he take to realise that ambition? the big six energy companies, Citizens Advice and others this week in order to drive forward the roll-out of Gregory Barker: We are very active on this agenda. Warm Front to ensure that we do not have the underspend The Secretary of State and I firmly believe that the EU that she has highlighted. should submit a 30% target in the Kyoto protocol. We are working closely with ministerial colleagues from key Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): member states to build support for a 30% target, directly The green deal has just been described as the “game- engaging the more sceptical. At the Environment Council changer”, but the concern being expressed by those in March, the Secretary of State will argue strongly for living in Thirsk, Malton and Filey is that it will push up approval of the EU low-carbon road map, which sets their household energy bills. Will the Minister follow up out milestones for reducing emissions through to 2050. the suggestion put to the Prime Minister yesterday by looking favourably on schemes such as biomass, rather Strait of Hormuz than unreliable wind farms, in the green energy mix? 4. Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): What Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend is a little bit confused. assessment he has made of the potential effects on UK Biomass and other forms of renewable heating or electricity oil and gas supplies of any disruption of shipping generation have nothing to do with the green deal, through the Strait of Hormuz. [91730] 397 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 398

13. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): and on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member What assessment he has made of the potential effects for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) about refining activity, on UK oil and gas supplies of any disruption of and although it is good news that the tankers have shipping through the Strait of Hormuz. [91744] resumed distribution from the refinery this morning, will he update the House on whether oil is now being The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change delivered to the refinery for refining activity? (Chris Huhne): We have made assessments of the impacts of short-term disruptions to shipping through the strait Chris Huhne: There is indeed a cargo ready to be for both oil and gas. There is no reason to believe that delivered this morning, and there have been contingency such closure would create a physical shortage of oil or back-ups. I know that BP has been working closely with gas in the UK. Price impacts would depend on the exact us on this matter and I very much hope that normal nature of the disruption. The UK has access to a wide activity will resume. variety of oil and gas sources and routes, including production from the UK continental shelf, imports Tom Greatrex: I thank the Secretary of State for that from Norway, storage, and oil and liquefied natural gas response, which will, I am sure, bring comfort to many from global markets. people. As well as the 850 jobs, including those of contractors at the refinery, that are at risk, he will know Christopher Pincher: Given that 20% of the world’s that the background is that this situation is less to do traded oil, and 35% of the seagoing trade, passes through with the refinery’s operation and more to do with the the strait every day, presenting a significant terrorist financial structure of the Switzerland-based former owners. risk, will my right hon. Friend encourage the diversification Given the significant role played by UK-based refineries of supply, including overland pipelines, such as project in providing energy resilience, is he concerned that the Nabucco, the Abu Dhabi pipeline and the Iraq pipeline ownership of such a significant number of UK-based across Saudi Arabia, despite its being called IPSA? refineries is now overseas? Chris Huhne: We have traditionally benefited enormously Chris Huhne: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the in this country, both under the previous Government overland capacity. Unfortunately, the IPSA pipeline, as and under this Government, from our open-door policy he may know, is not currently functioning—I do not on foreign investment. Indeed, we own a substantial know whether that is anything to do with its namesake. amount of investment in other countries. The swiftness Diversification is a crucial part of our strategy, and the with which the arrangements have been put in place Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for suggests that there is no case for reviewing that policy at Wealden (Charles Hendry), and I have been working this stage. hard on getting closer relationships with some of our key suppliers, including the Norwegians. Smart Meters

Harriett Baldwin: My constituents already suffer from 6. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) high fuel and heating oil prices, so will the Secretary of (Con): If he will hold a review of the smart meter State reassure them that EU sanctions on Iranian oil infrastructure upgrade. [91733] will not cause further price pressures in that market? The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Chris Huhne: I would love to assure the hon. Lady Climate Change (Charles Hendry): The introduction of that we are able to have greater control over the politics smart meters will unlock huge benefits for the people of of the middle east than has been the case so far, but the this country. There is a solid evidence base to support reality is that that part of the world is extremely sensitive the roll-out, and it is important that we start to realise geopolitically.As she may know, HMS Argyll is supporting the benefits sooner rather than later. The coalition the USS Abraham Lincoln in the carrier group, and we Government have published detailed plans showing are sending out clear signals that we want the issue dealt how we will deliver smart meters; the last thing we need with in the most rapid way. is more delay. Gordon Henderson: I welcome that answer, but will Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Coupled with the my hon. Friend do something to ensure that the programme potential problem of oil import is the problem of a lack costs are reported and properly controlled in the interests of oil refinery capacity in this country, made worse by of those who will pay the bills—that is, the consumer? the Petroplus decision to close refineries in the south-east. What assessment have the Government made of refinery Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend makes a very important capacity, and what are they doing to increase that point. That is one of the most important mechanisms capacity? we have in any part of Government policy to bring benefits to consumers. The total cost of the programme Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman misunderstands is estimated to be about £11 billion and the benefits are the situation in the refinery market. With regard to estimated to be about £18 billion, so there will be Petroplus, the problem with Coryton has been the over- £7 billion of benefits, and that we is why we want to see capacity in the refining market, which has led to shaved it happening as soon as we can. margins. We are working to resolve that as quickly as possible. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Suppliers of mobile phones include warnings with new devices about Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ the potential danger of electromagnetic radiation. Does Co-op): Although the Secretary of State has reflected the Minister think that suppliers of smart meters should on the potential disruption through the Strait of Hormuz do the same? 399 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 400

Charles Hendry: We believe that people will benefit commitment of £600 million? Does he accept that that from having smart meters, but we will not make is a substantial reduction in affordable warmth for them obligatory. If people are concerned about the those on lower incomes? Even now, will he review the electromagnetic issues, they will not be required to have split in costs in relation to affordable warmth and those one. We have been willing to give assurances to hon. who can pay, or look for other methods of dealing with Members on that account. the issue?

Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): There is little incentive for supply companies to inform their domestic customers Chris Huhne: It is important that the hon. Gentleman better on their rate of energy use, so although I appreciate compares like with like. He should remember that what what the Minister has said so far, what can the Government is available under the ECO subsidy helps holistically to do to ensure that that process of better awareness and improve the energy efficiency of the whole home and is better information is speeded up? not like the Warm Front, which was largely a boiler replacement scheme. That proposal is out for consultation Charles Hendry: A very important part of this and we are listening to responses. programme is education. Smart meters will work only if the consumer understands how to use them effectively Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): The green to get the best value for money out of them. We are deal skills alliance has highlighted the importance of drawing a very clear distinction between education and having the right skilled professionals in place to deliver sales practice because we do not want the installation of the green deal to households. How will my right hon. smart meters to be an opportunity for unscrupulous Friend ensure that we have the right number of skilled sales practices. energy efficiency assessors, installers and training providers to make sure that when the green deal comes in this year Energy Efficiency we can deliver it?

7. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): What steps he is taking to encourage households to improve Chris Huhne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that their energy efficiency. [91735] such skills will be essential for the green deal—indeed, for the whole low-carbon economy. That is precisely 8. Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): why we have been working closely with the Department What steps he is taking to encourage households to for Business, Innovation and Skills, which takes the lead improve their energy efficiency. [91737] on skills. We have a national skills academy for environmental technologies, which is developing standards, The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change delivering training and upskilling tradesmen and technicians. (Chris Huhne): The Government have established the We also have funding for the renewables training network energy efficiency deployment office to develop an that is run by Renewable UK, and a talent bank for the overarching energy efficiency strategy. We will launch gas, power, waste management and water industries, the green deal later this year, which will radically improve which is led by the Energy and Utility Skills sector skills take-up of energy efficiency measures. We want every council. home to have a smart meter by 2019 so consumers have much greater control over their energy use. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): I understand that the Government have not yet even Mr Watts: Is the Secretary of State proud of the fact designed the training programme for many of the people that this is the first Government since 1970 who have who will have to deliver the green deal. Ministers have not had a programme to help poor families with their been claiming for months that the green deal will mean fuel costs? Is it not the case now that many poor the creation of thousands of jobs, but the Department’s families will get less help, and that there is virtually no figures show that the number of energy efficiency targeting of those resources that are available to the installations will plummet in the first year of the scheme, poorest families? with cavity wall insulations set to fall by 67% and loft insulations by a staggering 90%. That will cripple the Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman has clearly been sector and, according to Europe Economics, could lead hibernating over the past few months if he believes that to the loss of 3,000 jobs. Will the Secretary of State we are not helping poor families. First, the warm home protect those jobs by adopting Labour’s proposals to discount scheme, which is a statutory scheme for reducing include hard-to-treat cavity walls and lofts in the ECO? costs, will disburse two thirds more money than was disbursed under the voluntary scheme operated by the Labour Government. Secondly, the affordable warmth Chris Huhne: I think the hon. Lady misunderstands a obligation in the energy company obligation subsidy couple of issues. First, the green deal is a very different will take over from Warm Front. Thirdly, we have asked scheme precisely because it is designed to support a Professor John Hills to conduct a thorough review of complete retrofit. We are talking not just about cavity fuel poverty, which will lead to some interesting and wall insulation or loft insulation but about many other important recommendations. measures as well. The second point is that she is quoting the first impact assessment. It has always been the case Dr Whitehead: Does the Secretary of State accept that the take-up of the green deal will depend on the that the ECO’s affordable warmth element, which comes triggers and incentives that have been introduced for to £325 million, is substantially less than the Warm take-up, which have increased substantially since the Front commitment of £370 million and the CERT figures she quoted. 401 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 402

Energy Efficiency footing. Clearly, we want people in all circumstances to be able to benefit from lower tariffs and it is important 10. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): that they should be set at the right level in that part of What steps he is taking to engage charities and social the protocol. enterprises in projects that will reduce their energy consumption. [91741] Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Whether or not they are trying to switch, many people on prepayment meters The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change are clearly fuel-poor. What action is the Department (Chris Huhne): All property types, including those belonging taking to monitor self-disconnection among that group? to charities and social enterprises, will be eligible for the green deal which begins later this year. Charities and Charles Hendry: We understand that about 20% of social enterprises will be eligible for up-front support to those who are fuel-poor are on prepayment meters, and cover improvements, which will be paid back gradually we will clearly look at any reasons why anybody is through savings on energy bills. We are also running a disconnected. If they are required to be disconnected by £10 million fund to support communities, including the supplier, the evidence has to be reported to us and charities and social enterprises, in understanding their those figures have fallen very sharply in recent years, current energy use and the opportunities to reduce but if people are self-disconnecting we need to understand demand, as well as in developing renewable energy the reasons behind that. schemes locally. British Antarctic Survey Mr Sheerman: Charities and not-for-profit groups up and down the country have enormous in-house expertise 15. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) on this matter and are ready and willing to do more (Con): What assessment he has made of British work with businesses and local authorities on the green Antarctic Survey research on the effects of historic deal. Good firms such as Morrisons do a great deal in industrialisation on global carbon dioxide levels. partnership work. Could the Secretary of State do more [91746] to encourage more partnerships between local authorities, the private sector and charities such as Urban Mines, The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change which I chair? (Chris Huhne): Ice core measurements by the British Antarctic Survey reveal that over the last 800,000 years, Chris Huhne: I am very happy to join the hon. Gentleman global carbon dioxide levels varied between 180 and in encouraging the third sector in this regard. However, 300 parts per million. Those peer-reviewed results provide I point out that we recently announced 82 community crucial data on past natural levels for climate science winners in the first tranche of DECC’s £10 million local research. Observations show that global atmospheric energy assessment fund, which share in £4.2 million to carbon dioxide levels are currently increasing at about undertake feasibility studies for proposed community two parts per million per year, and are now at 391 parts energy and energy efficiency schemes. The winning per million, as a result of emissions from industrial and communities in the remaining, second tranche are due other human sources. to be announced in early February. Oliver Colvile: May I thank the Minister of State, my Prepayment Meters hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) for going to Bristol recently to launch the 11. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): marine energy strategy? How does my right hon. Friend What the level of debt is by which a prepayment meter the Secretary of State perceive it working in delivering customer is able to change supplier. [91742] fewer CO2 emissions and helping with the energy strategy?

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Chris Huhne: Marine energy parks are an important Climate Change (Charles Hendry): The debt assignment part of developing a tremendously good natural resource protocol helps prepayment meter customers with a debt for us in this country. We may not have quite as much of £200 or less to switch, providing the new supplier sunshine as in southern Spain or Arizona, but we have agrees to take on the debt. Ofgem monitors the protocol’s an awful lot of wind, an awful lot of waves and an awful effectiveness by recording the number of customers lot of tidal resource. Within the ministerial team, my blocked from switching as a result of having a debt. hon. Friend the Minister of State has been leading the charge on marine energy parks precisely to make sure John Robertson: I am sure the Minister will understand that we do not let those enormous opportunities slip my question when I mention that because of debt through our fingers. 200,000 customers are trapped on tariffs that they cannot get out of. If the level was extended to £350, a lot of Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Does the Secretary those people would be able to get their debt down. of State have three points he would like to share with us What is he doing to try to deal with that and will he on the main conclusions of the research? persuade Ofgem to set the figure at £350? Chris Huhne: I can certainly point to one conclusion Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman raises an important of the research that I think is absolutely crucial: point, and I shall ask Ofgem to look at the issue in measurements of current carbon dioxide levels show detail. Many people are on prepayment meters because that they have increased by nearly 40% since pre-industrial they were already in debt and it was a way of trying to times, and carbon isotope information shows that this manage their repayments to get them back on a firm has largely been caused by the burning of fossil fuels. 403 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 404

Drilling down into ice cores is a fascinating way of The Minister of State, Department of Energy and finding out what was happening in prehistory, and it Climate Change (Gregory Barker): My right hon. Friend thoroughly underlines the importance in the science of the Secretary of State and I have regular meetings with our addressing those issues. One thing that as politicians ministerial counterparts in the Department for Business, we cannot do is negotiate with scientific conclusions as Innovation and Skills on a variety of topics, including robustly supported as these. renewable energy issues.

Competition Mr Cunningham: What discussions has the Minister had with the Business Secretary regarding the 45,000 jobs 16. Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): What that could be lost in the construction industry over the steps he is taking to ensure a competitive energy next three years and the impact that will have on green market. [91747] energy delivery?

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Gregory Barker: I regularly discuss renewable energy Climate Change (Charles Hendry): Greater competition with colleagues, but we remain very optimistic about requires more companies taking part in the market, and the future for British renewables. We inherited a terrible increased transparency for consumers. Ofgem will shortly position from Labour, third from bottom of the EU announce proposals to improve wholesale market liquidity table, but I am glad to say that as of December 2011 and it is important that the regulator takes decisive there was 11 GW of installed renewable electricity, steps. We have also taken action to cut red tape for small 15.5 GW in construction and 10.5 GW in planning; and suppliers and Ofgem has published radical proposals to in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency this month we help suppliers to simplify their tariffs and billing have seen £12 million invested in Geothermal International, information, helping consumers switch supplier and alongside £2.5 billion of announced investments since thereby boosting competition. April 2011. That is a very encouraging picture.

Nicky Morgan: I thank the Minister very much indeed John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) for his reply. The people who should benefit from a (LD): A major area of growth for the renewable energy competitive energy market are the companies’ customers— industry will be marine energy, particularly, of course, our constituents. Is he aware of the practice by some the Pentland firth. I congratulate the Minister on the energy companies of repeatedly putting up direct debit renewable energy park that he has put in the south-west payment demands? The customer then has to call the and I thank him for the conversations we have had on company to negotiate them down, but the next time a turning the Pentland firth into a renewable energy park. bill arrives the direct debit has gone up yet again. What Can he tell me what progress we are making? does he think of that behaviour by our energy companies? Gregory Barker: I was delighted that this week we Charles Hendry: One of the most important aspects were able to launch the UK’s first marine energy park, of a functioning energy market is transparency; people and under the coalition marine energy in the UK is need to be clear about why their prices are changing and finally getting the drive forward that it has needed for the factors that contribute towards that. The requirement years. The hon. Gentleman played a key role in developing for greater transparency and more information on bills marine energy potential in Scotland, and I should like is therefore a fundamental part of the reforms that we to invite him to host a board meeting of the marine see coming through. energy programme board in Caithness in the summer, where I hope we shall have some good news on the Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Does the Minister creation of the second marine energy park in the UK, in recognise that the insistence on the energy performance Scotland. certificate at level 3 in order to qualify for the new solar PV fix will be anticompetitive in its practice? The industry Emissions has said that it may contribute to reducing employment in solar PV down to 8% of the current levels of employment, and yet it is not related to gas, which is used most for 18. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): What support warming Britain’s homes. his Department provides to community initiatives to help households reduce their carbon emissions. [91749] Charles Hendry: I hope the hon. Gentleman would agree that it is important that if people are receiving a The Minister of State, Department of Energy and subsidy for electricity which is generated, they should Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The coalition has have generally well insulated homes and they should big ambitions for community energy. Last week, we not be wasting it—[Interruption.] But for many people announced 82 community winners in the first tranche it does help. That was a proposal that was put forward of DECC’s £10 million competition to help mobilise in the consultation process. We have had many responses community energy groups. I will be announcing funding to that. We are currently considering those with a view for at least another 100 winning schemes early next to making a final decision. month. This new fund is just one element of our strategy to drive local and community energy action. Renewable Energy Hugh Bayley: We need consistency in Government 17. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): policy. City of York council has spent time and money What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary developing a solar energy scheme for council houses, of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on growth and yet it has been blown out of the water by the in the renewable energy sector. [91748] Minister’s announcement of 31 October. In order to 405 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 406 ensure continuity of policy, will the Government agree Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Given that those councils whose schemes to develop solar the importance we attach to National Grid maintaining energy for council houses were being developed before balance in the system, will the Minister tell us what the announcement should continue to get the feed-in discussions he has had with National Grid on how it tariff at the previous rate? contracts with short-term operating reserve aggregators? There is concern that National Grid is paying for so-called Gregory Barker: Unfortunately, the scheme that the phantom megawatts and the cost is being passed on to hon. Gentleman refers to—the feed-in tariffs—was devised consumers. Does the Minister agree that we need an and implemented by Ed Miliband—[Interruption.] independent auditor?

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should observe Charles Hendry: In all these matters, National Grid is the correct forms of address, and he should not refer— regulated by the official regulator, Ofgem. The STOR [Interruption.] Order. He should not refer to another arrangements play an important role in the process, Member by name in that way. He should briefly finish ensuring that when there is a significant and sudden his answer and resume his seat. change in requirement, generation capacity to meet that demand is available. Of course that important function of our grid system must be operated in a transparent Gregory Barker: The feed-in tariffs were devised by way. the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), and unfortunately did not anticipate a single scheme of the type to which the hon. Member for York Topical Questions Central (Hugh Bayley) refers. Under our reformed and restructured feed-in tariff schemes, in the future we very T1. [91751] Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): If much hope that those schemes will be able to be supported, he will make a statement on his departmental unlike the shambles of the scheme that we inherited responsibilities. from Labour. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Wind Farms (Chris Huhne): Since my Department’s last Question Time, I have attended the UN climate change conference, where the UK delegation as a whole played a key role in 19. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What discussions securing the Durban platform, a road map to a global he has had with National Grid on the shutting down of legal agreement. DECC has published the carbon plan, wind farms during times of high wind intensity. [91750] which sets out how we will meet our first four carbon budgets; we have consulted on incentives for solar energy The Minister of State, Department of Energy and as part of our review of the feed-in tariff scheme; and Climate Change (Charles Hendry): Ministers and DECC our clean energy plans took an important step forward officials have regular discussions with National Grid with the opening of the UK’s first carbon capture and about the operation of the electricity network, and this storage plant in November last year. has included the issue of transmission constraints, including our consultation on the transmission constraint licence Bill Esterson: The right hon. Gentleman neglected to condition. Reducing or increasing output of generators mention the defeat in the High Court. My constituents of all types is a normal part of National Grid’s role in Mark Davenport and Brian Malone lost money setting balancing the network at all times. Wind is not treated up solar power companies. Will the Government any differently from any other technology in this respect. compensate people who lost money as a direct result of the Secretary of State’s illegal actions? Mark Pawsey: My constituents in Rugby, who face applications for wind farms, will be concerned about Chris Huhne: Evidence of the very sharp take-up reports that turbines are switched off in times of high when we announced that we were getting to grips with wind speeds because the current infrastructure is unable the problems of the scheme shows that those involved to handle the amount of electricity generated. When in the industry had plenty of forewarning. As in any that happens, National Grid pays operators compensation— other sector, businesses take risks: sometimes the rewards are high and sometimes they are not. Mr Speaker: Order. Can we have a quick question? We have to move on, so we need a brief sentence with a T2. [91752] Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): No new question mark at the end of it. nuclear power stations have been built in this country for more than 20 years. How confident is the Secretary Mark Pawsey: What steps has the Minister taken to of State that Britain will possess all the relevant skills protect consumers from that element of the increase in and supply chains necessary to create a thriving nuclear their electricity bills? industry in this country?

Charles Hendry: About £250 million was paid last Chris Huhne: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the year in constraint payments, of which only 10%— importance of skills to the nuclear industry’s revival, £24 million—was paid to the wind sector. The Government especially as so many who work in that industry are are reviewing the transmission constraint licence condition nearing retirement. That is why the Minister of State and trying to ensure upgrades are made in many parts responsible for energy, my hon. Friend the Member for of the country, so that the power generated can get Wealden (Charles Hendry), has been working so hard where it is needed. with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills 407 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 408 to make sure, through the nuclear skills academy and stopped working at some point during the year, and other measures, that the skills are there so that we can how many of those stopped working due to too little deliver on time—and we will. wind and how many of them stopped working because of too much wind? T4. [91754] Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The St John’s Sunshine project in Old Trafford in my constituency planned to use feed-in tariffs to fund big Chris Huhne: I will happily come back to my hon. society community projects, but Gavin Wood told me Friend on wind turbines, but just because someone falls yesterday that those involved now feel that proceeding off a ladder does not mean that the House jumps to with the project would be a gamble. What assurances abolish ladders. In a similar sense, the operation of can the Government offer that Ministers will make wind turbines, particularly those that are onshore, which good on their promises to community projects and are most economic, provides an increasingly important offer them the certainty they urgently need? contribution to our energy needs, which is home-grown and not likely to be buffeted by events in the middle Chris Huhne: As I have made clear in the House east. before, I wish we had been able under the law to provide separate support to the community schemes that have T7. [91759] Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) come forward, but we were not able to do that under the (Lab): Four thousand five hundred employees of legislation passed by the previous Government. We will Carillion, headquartered in my constituency, went into consult on that. I merely point out, as I did to the hon. Christmas on notice of redundancy due to the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), that the continued arbitrary and clearly illegal changes to the solar feed-in fall in the cost of solar panels will make more and more tariffs. We all agree that tariffs need to be reviewed, but schemes viable. will the Minister not help to end the terrible uncertainty in which Carillion employees are living by T3. [91753] Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): The accepting the High Court decision and taking the time green deal is very dependent on consumer uptake and to review the policy properly? consumer trust in the energy companies. What sort of expertise has the Department in terms of understanding consumer behaviour and how will we be Chris Huhne: I have already referred to the substantial able to deliver this programme through consumer costs and the fact that the industry would face a substantial behaviour change? reduction in the number of potential installations were we to accept those costs. I merely point out as well that The Minister of State, Department of Energy and going forwards we have attempted to provide that certainty, Climate Change (Gregory Barker): My hon. Friend has precisely because we laid the order, making sure that the considerable experience and understanding of consumer new rate will be available from the beginning of March. behaviour, and she will be pleased to know that we have a specific consumer behavioural insight team in DECC, T8. [91760] Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Has but the greatest value comes from liaising with retail the Minister made an assessment of the energy sources companies with real track records, such as Kingfisher, that may or may not be available in some of the British B&Q, John Lewis, Sainsury’s and Tesco. Ultimately, it is overseas territories, particularly the Falkland Islands? the private sector that will guide our thinking and be responsible for the success of the green deal. Chris Huhne: The matter of oil exploration around T6. [91757] Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): The the Falkland Islands is a lead responsibility of the Secretary of State seemed to misunderstand my Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Exploration is under question on oil refinery capacity earlier. Oil and way. Some of the initial exploration undertaken in petroleum trade bodies tell me that there is a shortage territorial waters was disappointing, but that may change of oil refinery capacity in this country, and that crude in future. oil is exported to India and brought back in. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of that, Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): and how is he responding to that serious question? Having been a Minister myself in the Department of Energy and Climate Change, I cannot believe that officials The Minister of State, Department of Energy and did not warn the Secretary of State and Ministers of the Climate Change (Charles Hendry): It is a very serious folly of setting a cut-off date before the end of the question and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for consultation period. Will he not now apologise to those pursuing it further. Some of the crude produced in this whose plans have been ruined and whose jobs have been country is not suitable for use here because of the diesel lost, and acknowledge that a review was provided for in demand and therefore it is exported, and the diesel fuel the Labour Government’s legislation? tends to have to be imported, which results in an imbalance. Through the downstream oil infrastructure forum we are looking at the industry’s strategy to put in Chris Huhne: The right hon. Lady sadly does not place a long-term programme to assess how we can draw attention to the fact that there was no system of support and build up that industry, and the role of automatic degression under that scheme. However, she international investors is critical to that process. will be interested to hear that the general point that we should learn all the lessons required to be learned from T5. [91755] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Further to this episode is not lost on the ministerial team, and I the question from my hon. Friend the Member for have ensured that we are doing precisely that. I do not Rugby (Mark Pawsey), what estimate has the Secretary think that it will come to conclusions that will be of State made of the number of wind turbines that entirely to the right hon. Lady’s liking. 409 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 410

Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): Does the Secretary effective way and looking at how we can involve parish of State agree that swift action to deal with metal theft councils, local charities and other organisations trusted is vital to protect our energy infrastructure, and will he by consumers to ensure that they get the greatest benefit therefore join me as a member of the all-party group on as quickly as possible. combating metal theft in welcoming today’s statement from the Home Office? George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): The Minister mentioned the creation of the south-west marine Chris Huhne: I certainly welcome today’s statement energy park, which is a tremendous boost to projects from the Home Office and think that the right hon. such as Wave Hub in my constituency. Does he agree Lady the Home Secretary is putting forward some that projects being assessed for capital grants to develop excellent ideas on how to deal with this problem. Metal wave power should be given preference if they are theft affects all networks, including electricity networks, located within the marine energy park? and because it affects networks it has a much broader cost than many other crimes. Gregory Barker: The reason we have created marine energy parks is to bring together resources in a co-ordinated and strategic fashion, which has not happened in the Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): The Government’s past. My hon. Friend’s point is extremely well made and incompetence and arrogance over the feed-in tariff fiasco very valid. I expect a significant part of the Department’s has been staggering. The industry and the public need research budget—£20 million—to be set aside for wave certainty, so will he now try to answer the question my and tidal technology and to flow to his part of the right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline world. Flint) asked him earlier, abandon his costly and doomed legal case and sit down with the industry to agree a Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The energy companies sustainable solution? tell us that very few customers are disconnected, but we know that many customers are so-called self-disconnected Chris Huhne: As I have already pointed out, a substantial because they cannot afford to put credit on their pre- part of the industry intervened in the court case on our payment meters, especially if they are already paying off side. This is the best way forward for the sustainable previous arrears through the meter. Will the Minister as growth of the industry. We have also laid the order that a matter of urgency ask the energy companies how will provide absolute certainty on the tariff rate we are many people are self-disconnected? providing from 3 March, so I think that the right hon. Gentleman is being uncharacteristically churlish. Charles Hendry: As I said earlier, it is important that we understand why people are disconnected. If there is Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): On Tuesday the Institution not enough clarity about why people are self-disconnecting, of Engineering and Technology is due to publish its we will ask for more details on why that is happening. long-awaited report on the undergrounding of electricity transmission lines. Given that 1,000 new pylons would Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Mid Devon have a significant effect on the natural environment and district council, which is based in Tiverton, was planning the landscape, what steps has the Secretary of State just before the tariff rate was cut to have 1,800 social taken to ensure that the study considers the wider homes with solar panels. Will Ministers be prepared to economic benefits of undergrounding to tourism, meet officials from the council to discuss a way forward? particularly in my part of Somerset, and the lifetime maintenance costs of undergrounding compared with Gregory Barker: I would be delighted to meet my using mile upon mile of pylons? hon. Friend to discuss the matter. Obviously we want to build a consensus on the way forward. I will publish Charles Hendry: It is a very important study. As part plans for the reform of the feed-in tariff so that we can of the process of understanding whether the grid should put it on a much sounder footing and learn from the be under or above ground, we need to start with an mistakes of the system we inherited. assessment of the real costs of undergrounding and Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): What assessment has overgrounding. This authoritative study is the most the Secretary of State made of the Government’s liability dedicated of its kind ever carried out and makes an for their unlawful actions in bringing in the feed-in important contribution to the debate. It will not answer tariff consultation? all the questions, but it is an important element. Chris Huhne: We disagree, respectfully, with the Court Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The Minister will of Appeal’s judgment, and that is precisely why we be aware that the cost of smart meters will be borne by intend to go to the Supreme Court. Clearly, given that us in our electricity bills, but the benefits will not we disagree, the issue of liability at this stage does not automatically accrue to the consumer. How will he arise. ensure that the most vulnerable, poor and elderly consumers benefit from the installation of smart meters and are Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): protected from disconnection? Half an hour ago the Thamesteel works in my constituency went into administration, with the potential loss of Charles Hendry: The hon. Lady makes an extremely 400 jobs. Obviously I hope that the administrators will important point. One of the keys to the success of find somebody to take over the plant as soon as possible, smart meter roll-out is the education programme that but any successor will face similar problems with the will go with it to ensure that householders know how to high cost of energy as do so many other companies in use them to their greatest benefit. We are talking to the energy-intensive industry. What can my right hon. consumer groups to ensure that that is done in the most Friend do to help such companies? 411 Oral Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 412

Chris Huhne: As my hon. Friend knows, the Chancellor that the Department is no longer fit for purpose. Is he of the Exchequer announced in the autumn statement really telling the House that he is going to drag the that we will bring forward a package to help the energy- Government’s reputation further into the mire and waste intensive industry— further large amounts of taxpayers’ money in order to pursue what is really a wasted cause? Mr Speaker: Order. I enjoy greatly listening to the Secretary of State, but can he please face the House? Chris Huhne: Let me reiterate the point that, if we Then we will all have the benefit of his eloquence. were merely to accept the number of installations after our reference date and before 3 March, we would add Chris Huhne: We will therefore bring forward that £1.5 billion to the total cost of the scheme. That is what package with a consultation paper, and there will be Opposition Members are asking us to do. If we were to detailed proposals at that point. go further, the cost would be even greater. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that that is a price worth paying, he is John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): In the light entirely consistent with what else Opposition Members of the court case that has been mentioned and the say on economic policy, but it is not something that will Secretary of State’s comments this morning, it is clear be entertained by Government Members. 413 26 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 414

Business of the House Another Minister who is reluctant to come to the House is the Chancellor. Despite two weeks of terrible economic news, he has made no appearance at the 11.32 am Dispatch Box. This week’s GDP figures showed that the Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of economy is shrinking, not growing; 2.7 million people the House please give us the business for next week? are out of work; and family budgets are under extraordinary pressure. This time last year, the Government’s excuse The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George for the shrinking economy was the snow. We have now Young): The business for the week commencing 30 January had the mildest winter for 350 years, and the economy is will be: still contracting; it was too cold last year, and it is too warm this year—the country is tired of excuses from a MONDAY 30 JANUARY—Second Reading of the Civil Aviation Bill. Government who refuse to take responsibility for their own disastrous economic mismanagement. TUESDAY 31 JANUARY—Conclusion of consideration in Committee of the Local Government Finance Bill Given that the Chancellor was not present for Treasury (day 3). questions, will the Leader of the House be a bit more of WEDNESDAY 1FEBRUARY—Consideration of Lords an assertive factory foreman and insist that he come to amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill. the Chamber? If the Chancellor does ever condescend to reappear at the Dispatch Box, we could ask him THURSDAY 2FEBRUARY—General debate on the transparency and consistency of sentencing. about the bonus scheme for the chief executive of the Royal Bank of Scotland. I fear that the Leader of the The provisional business for the week commencing House will be unsuccessful in coaxing the Chancellor 6 February will include: out of hiding, so perhaps he will now explain why RBS, MONDAY 6FEBRUARY—Second Reading of the Financial a state-owned bank bailed out by the taxpayer, wants to Services Bill. give its chief executive a £1 million bonus this year. The TUESDAY 7FEBRUARY—Opposition day (un-allotted board of RBS is thinking of paying its chief executive day) (half-day). There will be a debate on an Opposition in one day more than someone on average earnings motion, subject to be announced, followed by business would make in a lifetime. We have heard the synthetic to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. outrage from those on the Government Benches, but the question is, what are they going to do about it? WEDNESDAY 8FEBRUARY—Motions relating to the police grant and local government finance reports. Government incompetence plumbed new depths this THURSDAY 9FEBRUARY—General debate on the Somalia week when the local government Minister ended up in conference. the Aye Lobby supporting an amendment that he had I should also like to inform the House that the rejected moments earlier at the Dispatch Box. Will the business in Westminster Hall for 9 February will be: Leader of the House confirm that the Minister, on realising that he was locked in the wrong Lobby, bravely THURSDAY 9FEBRUARY—Debate on the seventh report of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee on “Football took refuge in the toilet while a Conservative Minister Governance”. barked orders at him through the doorway? The Government’s legislative agenda has been bogged down Earlier this week, all colleagues should have received for months—[Laughter.] It says something about the an e-mail on behalf of the House service, inviting them incompetence of the Government that it took the Serjeant to participate in the 2012 survey of services. As well as at Arms to flush the Minister out—[Laughter.] The providing an opportunity for Members and their staff local government Minister has inadvertently revealed to provide feedback on the services we currently use, it the Liberal Democrats’ new political strategy—if in will also help the House service and the House of trouble, run for the toilet. Commons Commission to identity priorities for the next few years, when budgets will be tighter. I encourage Last night, the Government suffered a crushing defeat colleagues to find a few minutes to take part. in the House of Lords. Their proposal to charge lone parents for using the Child Support Agency is simply Ms Eagle: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his “unjust”; I am quoting a Conservative peer. I agree with response and for finally announcing three whole days of a former Conservative Lord Chancellor, a former actual Government business—for, I think, the first time Conservative party chairman and a former Liberal since October. The Leader of the House wanders about Democrat Chief Whip—why on earth will not the saying that Parliament is not a legislative factory, but if Government? The party of Lloyd George is reduced to he were running a factory he would have had us all sent this: voting to take away support from young people home on half pay ages ago. with cancer, the disabled and lone parents. I quite I raised last week the extraordinary situation of the understand why Liberal Democrat Ministers have taken Business Secretary lining up a speech to a think-tank in to hiding in the toilet. order to announce his proposals on executive pay. The Leader of the House promised to remind the Business It is more than a year since the Health and Social Secretary of his obligations under the ministerial code. Care Bill was first introduced. It started at 353 pages; by I fear he would not make a very good factory foreman, Second Reading, it had grown to 405 pages; and now, because it took an urgent question to force the Business almost 2,000 Government amendments later, it weighs Secretary to come to the House first. Did the right hon. in at a colossal 445 pages. In the Leader of the House’s Gentleman forget to remind the Business Secretary, or legislative factory, MPs are sat around twiddling their are Government relations so poor that his Liberal Democrat thumbs, but the Clerks are run off their feet redrafting colleague just ignored him? the Government’s disastrous Bills. 415 Business of the House26 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 416

The growing length of the Health and Social Care I have to protect the Back-Bench business. There is an Bill has not won over critics—the royal colleges, doctors, important topical debate on the European Council and nurses, patient groups and the voluntary sector all now an important debate on defence, both of which are oppose the Bill. Even the Select Committee on Health, heavily subscribed. To get in the maximum number of chaired by a former Conservative Health Secretary, has colleagues on business questions, I am looking for short questioned what the Government are doing. The Health questions and the usual short answers from the Leader Secretary is about the only person in the country who of the House. still believes in the Bill. Is it not time that the Government listened and dropped this disastrous measure? Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend say how many communications he has Sir George Young: On the programme before the received from my constituents on the Daylight Saving House, we believe in a balanced diet, including proposed Bill? Would he care to reply to them through me by legislation. For the hon. Lady to describe as “twiddling saying whether there is any prospect of his providing our thumbs” Opposition days, Back-Bench business more time for this subject, if not next week, at some days and serious debates, such as the one I have announced point in the future? on Somalia, does a genuine discourtesy to the House. My right hon. and hon. Friends are fully aware of the ministerial code and I remind them about it from time Sir George Young: I am grateful to my right hon. to time. Friend. A good number of e-mails have found their way into my inbox. Of course I understand the strong The Chancellor of the Exchequer was at ECOFIN on feelings that have been expressed by our constituents Tuesday, which is why he was not at Treasury questions. about what happened last Friday. I commend my hon. I am sure that if the hon. Lady reflects on her days at Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), the Treasury, she will understand that from time to time who did heroic work in bringing the Bill forward and the Chancellor has to represent this country overseas enabling the House to consider it last Friday in a form and therefore cannot appear in the House. of which the Government approved. The Government I am surprised that the hon. Lady raised the subject supported the Bill as it passed through. I have considered of bonuses, as the contract that entitles Mr Hester to a my right hon. Friend’s suggestion of providing more bonus was put in place by the Labour Government. We Government time. I do not think that that would do the have done something that they failed to do: we have trick, because it would not be this Bill that would get limited cash bonuses to £2,000 at RBS and Lloyds, and more time, were more time to be provided. There is also we will do the same this year. We have also said that the the question of whether the Bill would have time to get bonus pool at RBS and Lloyds will be lower and more through another place. My view is that at the beginning transparent this year than last year—something else of the next Session, somebody should pick up the baton that the Labour Government failed to do. So far as this from my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point and year is concerned, no decision on bonuses has been try another private Member’s Bill. I remind the House taken. that in previous Parliaments this has always been a I have looked at Hansard, and the Under-Secretary of subject for private Members’ Bills. I think that that is State for Communities and Local Government, my the right way to make progress. hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell), voted the right way. I understand that after so Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): Last doing, as an act of generosity, he went to refill one of week the Procedure Committee published its excellent the carafes on the Table so that his fellow Minister report on e-petitions. Together with the Backbench would be refreshed during the remaining stages of the Business Committee and the Hansard Society, we will debate, when he was entrapped in the opposite Division hold a seminar on the future of e-petitions on 6 March. Lobby. I understand that there were fraternal greetings. Will the Government therefore indicate when they will We are all grateful that my hon. Friend emerged from produce a response to the report so that we can have a the Lobby unharmed. debate in the Chamber in which the whole House can On the Child Support Agency, I understand that the express an opinion on the future of e-petitions? provision to make charges was introduced by the Labour On the subject of time, the Backbench Business Government. We all know from our constituency work Committee is overwhelmed with demands for debates that the CSA is in need of reform. All too often, it lets on issues such as metal theft, daylight saving and UK down those it seeks to help. Part of the purpose of that Trade & Investment—very important subjects that we reform is to encourage more settlements outside the do not have the time to allocate for debate. Perhaps the CSA. The proposal to which the hon. Lady referred is Government can help the Backbench Business Committee part of that process. and the House to bring forward some of those topics On the Health and Social Care Bill, many of the for debate by allocating more time to the Committee amendments to which the hon. Lady referred were while we are waiting for business to come from the called for by the Opposition, so I hope she will welcome other House. them. In due course, this House will deal with Commons consideration of Lords amendments. Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. Several hon. Members rose— The important subjects she mentions, which hon. Members want to debate, are referred to as “thumb twiddling” by Mr Speaker: Order. A large number of right hon. and the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle). I welcome hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. Ordinarily, I the report from the Procedure Committee. I am broadly seek to accommodate everybody, but I give notice that sympathetic to its proposals, which build on the success that will almost certainly not be possible today, because of e-petitions. I note what she said about the time of her 417 Business of the House26 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 418

[Sir George Young] Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, who is anxious to build on the Sure Start initiatives and seminar, which I greatly welcome. The Government will extend the help that they offer to many people. seek to respond to the e-petition debate shortly after that seminar. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): Last Friday, Standing Orders provide that a minimum of 35 days a handful of hon. Members waffled on for the best part should be provided in each Session, and so far we have of five years—[Laughter] It felt like it! I mean five provided 49. However, I recognise the demand to which hours—to kill the Daylight Saving Bill. In how many she refers, and we will seek to respond to her bid for other workplaces does the Leader of the House think it more time between now and the end of the Session. would be acceptable for individuals purposely to waste time, and what is he going to do to change the practice Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): May we have here? a debate on bad budgeting and the wasting of public money? Has my right hon. Friend seen reports today Sir George Young: I understand the sense of frustration that the cost of the London Olympics is likely to that the hon. Lady expresses, which is shared by many balloon from £2.3 billion to more than £12 billion—a of my constituents. She will know that the Procedure huge sum that will bring no benefit at all to many parts Committee is conducting an inquiry into the calendar, of the country, including East Yorkshire? When that included within which is a section on private Members’ flaming torch goes round the country, will not the fuel Bills. As I said before, I have examined the matter, and that it is burning be pounds sterling? in my view there is no practical way for that Bill to complete its passage through both Houses in the remainder Sir George Young: I am surprised by how my right of the Session, even if the Government were to provide hon. Friend greets the London Olympics. I think he will time. The best way for it to be taken forward, as I find that benefits are spread broadly throughout the suggested earlier, is for someone to build on the heroic country, not least from much of the work that is now work of my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point. taking place. My understanding is that the Olympics will be held within budget and that the work is on time. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): One of the first No events are being held in North West Hampshire, but decisions that Mayor Boris Johnson took was to ban my constituents broadly welcome the London Olympics the consumption of alcohol on public transport. That as something that they are proud this country is holding, has meant that thousands of passengers have been able and they are glad that the flame is going through North to enjoy their journeys to and from home. Now, the old West Hampshire. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend pretender threatens to remove the ban if he is re-elected. accurately reflects all the views of his constituents. May we have a debate on the consumption of alcohol on public transport? Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): May we have an urgent statement from the Secretary of State for Health Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend on why he dismissed the Health Committee’s report as for bringing to the attention of the House and the wider “Westminster nonsense” and “out of date”? He is now public some of the issues that will confront Londoners telephoning all the royal colleges to tell them to withdraw later this year, when they will have to make a choice their opposition to the Bill. Will the Leader of the between the current Mayor of London and the old House use his good offices to get the Secretary of State pretender, as he put it. One of the many reasons for out of his bunker and into the Chamber? continuing to vote for Boris is exactly the initiative that he mentions. Sir George Young: The Government will respond in due course to the Health Committee report that was published on Monday, and the House will debate the Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Has the Leader remaining stages of the Health and Social Care Bill of the House been given notice that the Exchequer when it completes its passage in another place. I think Secretary to the Treasury intends to make a statement, that my right hon. Friend was perfectly entitled to either written or oral, about the closure of 15 offices of defend the Government’s view on the radio and elsewhere Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, which was announced on Monday, and of course he will continue to be held yesterday? accountable in the House at Question Time and in Opposition day debates, which were also described as Sir George Young: I am not aware of any announcement, “thumb twiddling” by the hon. Member for Wallasey. and I believe that there is no written ministerial statement today from my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary. I Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): May we have a will make some inquiries about the issue that the hon. debate on the charitable not-for-profit sector to deal Gentleman raises. with what has been described to me as the “Tescofication” of the sector, which is contrary to the big society and Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): May we have a debate localism? For example, Ormiston children and families on postal prices? Many of my constituents are alarmed trust, which operates across the east of England, is by the proposed rises in second and first-class stamps. about to lose seven of its Sure Start centres in my One of them, Mr Burton, put it very well when he constituency because Barnardo’s has come in and hoovered expressed his concern that he would lose the pleasure of it up. the written word.

Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear of the potential Sir George Young: I am aware of my hon. Friend’s loss of Sure Start centres in my hon. Friend’s constituency. concern, and I will raise the matter with ministerial I would be happy to pursue the issue with my right hon. colleagues at the Department for Business, Innovation 419 Business of the House26 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 420 and Skills, who have responsibility for it. He will know Sir George Young: I am sorry that there was an that there are efforts to extend competition in postal apparent lack of interest in self-employment among services, in order potentially to bring down some of the Opposition Members. I am sure that their constituents costs of posting mail. are as interested as ours in the opportunities available for self-employment, particularly under the new enterprise Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I do not think the allowance scheme, which I hope will give many people Leader of the House knows his own power. It would be an opportunity to commence their own business and in perfectly possible for the Government to take on the due course begin to employ other people. Daylight Saving Bill and ask the House of Lords to agree to carry-over to allow it to go into the next Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Session, then we would be able to have it on the statute What are the Government going to do about the Scotland book in the next few months. Rather than succumbing Bill? It is back in the Lords today, like a sad, eccentric to the witterings of a few Members last Friday, why old aunt that nobody wants to visit. After the momentous does he not back the wholehearted support for the Bill events in Scotland of the past couple of weeks, as we of nearly everybody else in the House and ensure that it move towards independence, are not the Government comes to pass? starting to think about pulling the plug on the sad old dear? Sir George Young: I notice that the hon. Gentleman, when he was Deputy Leader of the House, took no Sir George Young: Absolutely not. The Scotland Bill steps whatever to change the procedure for private will implement commitments that I believe all three Members’ Bills. It has not changed at all, nor is he right parties made. The reason progress is not being made at in what he says about carry-over in the other place. the moment is that one of the options in the consultation document, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, was to amend the Bill. We need the consultation process Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Can to end before we decide whether it needs to be amended time be found for a debate on planning applications for as was suggested in that document. mobile telephone masts? The transparency of those applications is causing real concern to many residents in Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): my constituency, and we would welcome a debate at the Tomorrow morning I will have my monthly slot on earliest opportunity. Moorlands Radio, which is on 103.7, in case you, Mr Speaker, should ever be in Staffordshire Moorlands. Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s It is a great community local radio station, and like point, and many of us are aware of concern in our many up and down the country it provides access to constituencies about communication masts, although information for local organisations, charities, events my impression is that there is much more sharing than and good causes. However, it faces many challenges, so there used to be. There was consultation last year on a will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on national planning policy framework, which included a community local radio stations and what we can do to section on communication masts. That consultation has support them? ended, and the Government will announce their conclusions shortly. I cannot promise a debate, but there may be an Sir George Young: I am sure that we would all like to opportunity for further discussion when that process is take part in that debate, particularly if it were recorded complete. by our own community radio stations. The Government are a keen supporter of community radio and allocate Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): In answer to some £450,000 to the community radio fund. I commend a question about cuts affecting disabled children asked my hon. Friend’s work to get more resources for Moorlands by my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling Radio. All such radio stations are a means for MPs to (Mrs McGuire), the Prime Minister said that she was communicate with our constituents, listen to their concerns “wrong”. We now know that she was in fact correct. and reflect them in the House. Will the Prime Minister come to the House to make an apology and correct his inaccurate statement? Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will the Leader of the House shed some daylight, if not Sir George Young: My right hon. Friend was quite sunlight, on what the universities Minister is getting up right in what he said yesterday. I have made some to? We had a White Paper on higher education, but now inquiries, and under the introduction of universal credit it has seeped out of the Department for Business, there will be transitional protection to ensure that there Innovation and Skills that there will be no higher education is no cash loss for those whose circumstances otherwise Bill. What is going on? There is a rumour that there is remain the same when they migrate from their existing some bold initiative on higher education that is so secret benefit. The Prime Minister was absolutely right in that someone would have to be shot if they heard it. what he said. Sir George Young: In which case, I am very glad that I Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): With jobs have not heard it. and growth right near the top of the agenda, Tuesday’s The contents of the Queen’s Speech will be made Westminster Hall debate on self-employment was massively available to the House in due course. Not only is the oversubscribed by Government Members. Sadly, the date of that event still unknown, but its contents are entire parliamentary Labour party was unavoidably still a matter of ministerial discussion. detained elsewhere. May we have another debate in Government time to allow the Labour party to join the Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): May we debate on jobs and growth? have a debate on the process of applying for village 421 Business of the House26 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 422

[Greg Mulholland] the overwhelming support for the Bill, the outrageous wrecking tactics last Friday and the fact that this House green status? In 2004, “Keep Yeadon Banks Green” is not exactly inundated with Government business, applied for village green status for YeadonBanks. Several why does the Leader of the House not introduce a attempts by Leeds Group plc to block it have been Government Bill in the next two weeks? overturned, including in the High Court, but now, in 2012, we are having to take the matter to the Supreme Sir George Young: I believe that, like the hon. Member Court, which is outrageous. May we have a debate on for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), the right hon. Gentleman simplifying the process so that areas get the protection also had responsibilities as Deputy Leader of the House they need? in a previous Parliament, and he took no steps whatever on reform. Sir George Young: I understand that part of the matter is covered in the Localism Act 2011, but many Chris Bryant: Answer the question! hon. Members have the same problem as my hon. Friend. I will draw it to the attention of Ministers at the Sir George Young: In response to that heckling, I Department for Communities and Local Government, have already answered the question. I have looked at the but I am sure that many people would welcome any matter. There is no way that a Bill could complete its efforts that he might make to have it debated either in passage through both Houses in the time available. My this Chamber or in Westminster Hall. advice remains that a successful Member in the ballot in the next Session should pick up the baton currently held Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): N-ergy is a by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca social enterprise working across more than 40 prisons Harris). in England and the five Welsh prisons, offering vocational and employability programmes to offenders and Several hon. Members rose— ex-offenders. However, like many successful SMEs working in specialist areas, it is unable to bid for public procurement Mr Speaker: Order. I remind the House that there is contracts because its turnover is not seen as being high heavy pressure—extensive pressure—on time, and I would enough. May we have a debate on developing a separate appeal to colleagues who might have dreamed up lengthy public procurement process for SMEs, so that some questions to shorten them to single sentence questions. of their innovative and new ideas can be brought into If they do so, they will be helping other colleagues to Government contracting? get in.

Sir George Young: I commend the work that many John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Will the Leader of the voluntary organisations do to help those who are in House urgently make time for a debate on judicial prison get the skills that they need to cope when they reform in the Republic of the Maldives? Although the leave. There will be an opportunity to raise that specific judiciary is constitutionally independent, sitting judges issue with my right hon. Friend the Minister for the are underqualified, often corrupt and hostile to the Cabinet Office, who has responsibility for procurement, democratically elected regime. on 8 February, but in the meantime I will raise with him the option that she mentions of having a separate Sir George Young: The Under-Secretary of State for category so that organisations such as the one to which Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the hon. Lady refers might be able to bid for public the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), contracts. is seized of this problem and is in touch with the Maldives President to see whether we can resolve the Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): May impasse. The high commission in Colombo is also we have a debate on apprenticeships? I am sure that the engaged. We want to help the Maldives to make progress Leader of the House will join me in congratulating the towards democratic reform in the direction that my sponsors of the new Milton Keynes apprenticeship hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) academy, which opens today and specialises in IT and outlines. accountancy. With such a rise in apprenticeships, does he agree that it is vital that they should be led by Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): May I press demand from businesses? the case for a statement from the Business Secretary on higher education policy, to end the uncertainty that has Sir George Young: I welcome what is happening in been created by the Government’s chaotic way of developing my hon. Friend’s constituency, and the issue of their policy, which is causing enormous damage to our apprenticeships was touched on in the Opposition day universities? debate that we had on Monday. He will applaud the work that the Government are doing to increase the Sir George Young: I reject the hon. Gentleman’s number of apprenticeships very substantially, and I accusation of confusion. There will be an opportunity agree entirely that that should happen in response to the to cross-question my right hon. Friend the Secretary of needs of businesses. Apprentices should get the skills State for Business, Innovation and Skills the next time that they need to apply for the jobs in our constituencies. his Department answers questions. Our proposals for education reform that have gone through the House Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I hope the Leader have been broadly welcomed. of the House sensed the House’s disappointment in his reply to the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): In the autumn (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on the Daylight Saving Bill. Given statement the Chancellor provided the Humber bridge 423 Business of the House26 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 424 with £150 million so that tolls could be cut, for which all Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate. had argued. Sadly, a Labour council in the region has My hon. Friend will know that we have introduced a rejected that offer, meaning that our tolls could stay at bank levy that raises £2.6 billion a year, and reduced £3 for vehicles. May we have statement from the Transport bonus payouts, which are now some 40% lower than Secretary on that subject? under the previous Government, who, as he says, took no action whatever in that important area. Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. I will, of course, raise the issue with my right Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport to see Following the farce of last Friday, will the Leader of the whether she can take any action to resolve this dilemma. House agree that it is important for the Speaker to be given powers to limit the length of speeches by Back Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The House Benchers in debates on private Members’ Bills? will be aware that the climate change risk assessment was published this week, because it was briefed heavily Sir George Young: You, Mr Speaker, will have heard two days ago to the newspapers. Hon. Members will that question, which was directed towards you rather have seen it in their papers this morning, but as yet no than me. I would not want to prejudice my position in executive summary is available in the Vote Office. Will any way by beginning to answer it. the Leader of the House have a word with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): May we ask her to pull her finger out? have a debate on what the Chancellor has done to tackle tax avoidance and on what else could be done, so that Sir George Young: I may make a request, but it will hard-pressed taxpayers in Croydon and elsewhere can not be so indelicately put as the hon. Gentleman suggests. be confident that they are not paying a penny more for I will convey his concerns to my right hon. Friend and people who are allowed to get away without paying see whether she can respond constructively. their fair share? Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Dementia is one of the Sir George Young: My hon. Friend raises an important cruellest diseases of our age. Will my right hon. Friend issue. We are introducing measures that will raise around make time available to discuss not only dementia but £4 billion over the current Parliament by clamping the support we provide to those who care for sufferers? down on tax avoidance. Some 2,250 HM Revenue and Customs staff are moving into a new anti-evasion and Sir George Young: My hon. Friend raises an important avoidance unity. We took action in the previous Budget subject. Some 600,000 people care for those who suffer to close loopholes. from dementia. The Government have sought to help by putting £400 million into the NHS to provide the resources for breaks for those people. We outlined our Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Why have the strategy in a document published last year. I would Government failed to provide support or time for the welcome a debate; my hon. Friend might like to approach Metal Theft (Prevention) Bill, which was due to be the Backbench Business Committee. discussed last Friday? It is supported by hon. Members on both sides of the House in every party, and there is a crisis out there in the country. It could have got through Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): May we in time. What is the reason for the Government’s lack of have a debate on the extraordinary refusal of support? Is it petty party politics? Mr Christopher Graham, the Information Commissioner, to reveal details to some 17,000 victims of newspapers that were blagging and finding out personal details Sir George Young: I do not know whether the hon. using Mr Steve Whittamore? It is extraordinary that the Gentleman has had time to look at the written ministerial Information Commissioner—of all people—is denying statement by the Home Office today, but it outlines the the British people their right to know. The details are action the Government are taking on scrap metal dealers. with the police and the newspapers, but not with the I know he was on television earlier this morning, which victims themselves. This is not Stasi time for the Information may have detained him from looking at that. Commissioner. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): My constituents Sir George Young: The right hon. Gentleman will are dismayed to find that, following the resignation of know that there is a process of appeal against the one of their MEPs, they will have no say in who her Information Commissioner’s decisions, which is open successor will be. Their cynicism in the political process to those who object to them in the way that he has increased when they found that her successor will be her outlined. I am not sure that it would be appropriate for husband. Will the Leader of the House find time for a the Government to get involved. debate on the process of replacing our MEPs?

James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): Sir George Young: The process that my hon. Friend The people of Halesowen and Rowley Regis are rightly outlines—whatever feelings it may engender—is set out anxious to see action against the something-for-nothing in statute and enshrined in legislation. I would be society at all levels. May we have a debate in Government misleading him if I said I had any plans to amend it. time to explore why the previous Government did not get undertakings on executive pay from banks that took Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The taxpayers’ money, and a debate on what this Government Government’s decision to appeal against the Court are doing to curb bankers’ bonuses? ruling that it was illegal to slash solar tariffs retrospectively 425 Business of the House26 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 426

[Caroline Lucas] hearing. I will raise the issue with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, who raises critical questions about whether the UK is a safe has responsibility for disabilities, and then let my hon. place to invest at all. The CBI has said that it Friend know what steps we have already taken in this “creates a mood of uncertainty that puts off investors”. area and what further steps are planned. May we therefore have an urgent debate on the impact of that decision on investor confidence in the UK? Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Leader of the House will be familiar with the saying “Where Sir George Young: I cannot promise an early debate, there’s a will, there’s a way”. The public want a Bill on and the hon. Lady will know—I suspect that she was in daylight saving, as do Members across this House. Will her place—that that was dealt with at some length an he think again? Will he find the will and find a way? hour ago in Department of Energy and Climate Change questions. Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern. Indeed, I myself sponsored a such private Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Member’s Bill with my hon. Friend the Member for The average weekly earnings for jobs in my constituency South Suffolk (Mr Yeo)—Ithink it was in the Parliament are £450—£23,400 per year less than the regional and before last—and I had exactly the same problem that national average. My area has therefore benefited the hon. Gentleman has just referred to: his party’s disproportionately from the increases in personal tax Government did nothing whatever. I have outlined a allowances. Please may we have a debate on the work way forward. The Government have agreed a Bill in the the Government are undertaking further to reconnect terms produced by my hon. Friend the Member for work and reward? Castle Point, and I think that is the best way forward. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend makes a good point. He will have an opportunity next Wednesday Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): May we have a debate when we debate amendments to the Welfare Reform on lower taxes for lower earners, given that poor motorists Bill to develop his arguments at greater length. The will be hit twice as hard as richer motorists if petrol and steps we are taking are designed precisely to do what my diesel duties rise? Can my right hon. Friend urge the hon. Friend has suggested—to make work pay and Chancellor to cut petrol and diesel tax in the next remove some of the perverse disincentives from the Budget? system that we inherited. Sir George Young: I will relay to my right hon. Friend Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): May we have a the Chancellor the bid that my hon. Friend has just debate in Government time on the sustainability of the made. I commend what he did with the e-petition on the London Olympic games following the resignation this issue last year, which resulted in the postponement of morning of Ms Meredith Alexander as the sustainability an increase that was due earlier this month. commissioner? She said that she resigned in protest against the commission being used to justify the sponsorship Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): I thank deal between the London Organising Committee of the the Leader of the House for scheduling a debate on the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games and Dow Somalia conference—a debate that I called for last Chemical. She has made particular allegations about week. May I ask him for an urgent statement on the irregularities, saying that 12 out of 13 commissioners businesses affected by the riots and disturbances last knew nothing about a report that was claimed to be August? Leicester businesses have learnt that they are produced by the commission. not eligible for any money from the policy authority, and we learnt from the Minister for Policing and Criminal Sir George Young: My right hon. Friend the Secretary Justice yesterday that they are not eligible for any of the of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport was other compensation schemes either. Leicester businesses asked about this earlier by the Select Committee on are hugely disappointed about that, if not furious, as Culture, Media and Sport, and gave the Government’s am I. response. As the hon. Gentleman knows, Dow did not own Union Carbide at the time of the tragedy and I do not think there are good reasons, as my right hon. Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, Friend the Secretary of State said, for taking the action not least for the plug for business questions on his blog that was taken. earlier this week. I am also grateful for what he said about the Somalia conference. Compensation is available Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Would my for those who suffered loss in the riots, either from the right hon. Friend agree to a debate about the provision police authority or from local government. I will chase of Government services to the deaf and hard of hearing? up the issues that he has referred to and see whether we On Monday I had the first surgery with a deaf British can make progress to help his retailers. sign language user in my constituency using Deaf Action’s SignVideo system over the internet. We must be assured Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Can we have a debate that all services, whether in education, health or justice, on employment tribunals? A large number of businesses are equally accessible. in my constituency are concerned about the number of vexatious complaints that are taken to employment Sir George Young: I am sure that every Member of tribunals, which they find very expensive to defend the House would agree with the proposition, which my against, particularly in these times. I know that the hon. Friend has just put forward, that services should Government want to help with this, and a debate in the be more accessible to those who are deaf or hard of House might help them in that regard. 427 Business of the House26 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 428

Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will know that we Sir George Young: Sitting next to me on the Front have proposed some changes to the employment tribunal Bench is the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who regime, one of which would oblige those who are taking has noted the protest that my hon. Friend has made and cases to an employment tribunal to make a contribution has now undertaken to raise it with his colleague— towards the costs. I hope that those and other initiatives that we announced last year will go some way to meeting The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark my hon. Friend’s aspirations. Hoban): The Exchequer Secretary.

Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): Can the Leader Sir George Young: My hon. Friend has undertaken to of the House advise how the scores of hon. Members raise the matter with the Exchequer Secretary, who has who spoke out in the Back-Bench debates on BBC local responsibility for taxation. radio can put on record their support for the recommendations made by Lord Patten yesterday that Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Given the recent many of the planned cuts be reversed and that afternoon unemployment figures, can we have a further debate on programming be protected? High Speed 2 and how it will directly create tens of thousands of jobs in the midlands and the north, solve Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend; the capacity challenge of the west coast main line and that sounds an appropriate subject for a Backbench help equip our economy to compete in the 21st century? Business Committee debate. I welcome what Lord Patten said yesterday when he indicated that some of the Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend proposed closures of local radio stations were being for his support for HS2. I think I am right in saying that rethought. I am sure that we would all support that we have recently had at least one debate on HS2. initiative and want to encourage whatever support is Whether there is appetite for another one in the immediate necessary to maintain local radio in our constituencies. future I am not sure, but I am grateful to him for his support for the project. Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Can we have a debate on the right to buy, giving us an opportunity to Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The main difference between discuss how we can help all those strivers out there and the rich and the poor is, of course, that the rich have the Opposition the opportunity to turn up, which they money to save and the poor have to spend nearly every did not do in the self-employment debate? penny they have. Will the Leader of the House please give time for a debate in the run-up to the next Budget on the obvious merits of raising the income tax threshold Sir George Young: I would welcome another debate to £10,000 before 2015, lifting more people out of on self-employment. We hope that the new enterprise income tax altogether? allowance will help up to 40,000 unemployed people start up businesses by 2013. We all have a role to play in Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will know that bringing home to our constituents the opportunities section 29 of the coalition agreement sets out a commitment available for self-employment, which have been promoted to raise the threshold to £10,000 during this Parliament, by some of our initiatives. and the Deputy Prime Minister is making a statement today. This will be taken on board by the Chancellor as Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): My constituent Mr Philip he prepares his Budget statement. Wright has been persecuted by HMRC for more than 12 years over a test case involving construction workers Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the Leader of and their contracted terms of employment. In light of the House and to colleagues for their brevity, which the huge cost of this case for the taxpayer, can we have a meant that 44 Back Benchers were able to take part in debate on HMRC, and in particular, when it will stop 35 minutes of exclusively Back-Bench time. That shows harassing my constituent and bring the case to an end? what we can do when we try. 429 26 JANUARY 2012 430 Point of Order Backbench Business 12.16 pm [UN-ALLOTTED DAY] Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Have you received a request from European Council the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Topical debate Sport to come to the House to clarify previous statements made to this House? Those statements made reference Mr Speaker: I remind the House that there is a time to the supposed report for the London Olympics by the limit on Back-Bench speeches, which is subject to review. Commission for a Sustainable London as the justification for the appointment of Dow Chemical as a sponsor, 12.18 pm when the resignation of Ms Meredith Alexander this Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I beg morning has in fact proved that no such report was to move, prepared by the commission at all. Indeed, 12 out of the That this House has considered the matter of the European 13 members of the commission knew nothing about it Council. until the letter from Shaun McCarthy to my right hon. I would like to take this opportunity briefly to mention Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood to this self-selecting group of Members in the Chamber (Tessa Jowell). who are taking an interest in EU Council debates that the Backbench Business Committee now has such debates Mr Speaker: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. within its remit. In future, therefore, when Members Gentleman, but the short answer to his question is no. I want to have such a debate before the EU Council have received no such communication, but the concern meets, they should come to the Backbench Business that he has registered will have been heard by the Committee. I will leave it at that. Leader of the House and others on the Treasury Bench. Mr Speaker: I apologise: I ought to have explained that the time limit on Back-Bench speeches is eight BILL PRESENTED minutes.

FINANCIAL SERVICES 12.18 pm Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I am grateful to the Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the Backbench Business Committee and its Chairman for Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretary arranging this debate. I am sorry that the Government Vince Cable, Danny Alexander, Mr Mark Hoban, Mr David did not take note of the unanimous view of the European Gauke, Miss Chloe Smith and Mr Edward Davey, presented Scrutiny Committee that such a debate should be held a Bill to amend the Bank of England Act 1998, the in Government time. However, we now have this Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and the Banking opportunity to air our views before the Prime Minister Act 2009; to make other provision about financial services goes to the summit. He is to be congratulated on his use and markets; to make provision about the exercise of of the veto, which I am bound to say I was glad about certain statutory functions relating to building societies, because I had suggested its use in my pamphlet “It’s the friendly societies and other mutual societies; to amend EU, Stupid”, and in other discussions. section 785 of the Companies Act 2006; to make provision The proposal for fiscal union vitally affects our national enabling the Director of Savings to provide services to interests and our democracy; it is not just about the other public bodies; and for connected purposes. single market and the City, essential though those matters are. As I said to the Foreign Secretary the other day, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on once we have crossed the Rubicon we cannot cross it Monday 30 January, and to be printed (Bill 278) with again, and it is imperative that there should be no explanatory notes (Bill 278-EN). backsliding at the summit on 30 January. I totally repudiate the attitude of the Deputy Prime Minister that the non-EU treaty of the 26 should eventually be folded into the EU treaties. The Liberal Democrats are an obstruction to our vital national interests. A house divided against itself will fall, and the situation will be worse still if it is built on sand. There are now two Europes, both built on sand, and the situation is not only precarious but dangerous. What is the root cause of the European crisis? It is not merely a eurozone crisis; it is a crisis of the European Union as a whole. Europe is being destroyed on the altar of ideology. The existing treaties, which cover 70% of our legislation here in the UK, have failed and are the root cause of the crisis in Europe. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): In the light of the hon. Gentleman’s attack on the role of the Liberal Democrats in all this, would he accept that the Deputy Prime Minister’s hosting of the recent summit of European Liberal leaders—including two Prime Ministers, six 431 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 432

Deputy Prime Ministers and five European Commissioners She urges more and more Europe, but that Europe —to try to bring together a bilateral plan to support would be both undemocratic and increasingly dominated jobs, growth and prosperity across Europe was a positive by Germany itself, as I have repeatedly stated for 20 years, step? and as The Economist concedes in this week’s edition. It states, following France’s downgrading, that Mr Cash: We are all in favour of growth, but “the balance of power has long been shifting from the French unfortunately the European treaties themselves work President to the German Chancellor”, against that aim because of the degree of overregulation, and a former French economic Minister has said that and many other matters that I shall come to in a moment. “Berlin is alone in the cockpit”. The lack of growth is contaminating the UK economy. That is not healthy for Germany or the UK, and Elsewhere in Europe it is creating civil disorder, with certainly not for Europe. It now seems certain that youth unemployment of up to 45% in Greece and President Sarkozy is on the way out, and Italy and Spain, and 30% in Italy. The present European Union is Greece have technocratic Prime Ministers. Democracy completely undemocratic, and the existing treaties should is dwindling and diminishing. The Franco-German be sent to a convention so that all the member states partnership is now a hollow reminder of German strength could have the opportunity to face one another and and French weakness. This is all the more reason why decide what kind of Europe they want. In the past, the UK must insist on leading Europe out of this crisis when referendums have been held in France, Holland, with Euro-realist policies and an insistence on government Ireland and Denmark, the no vote has been overturned by consent. Sadly, Germany believes in government by by bribing and threatening the electorate. That kind of rule, and is now even proposing the European Commission behaviour, combined with economic and political crisis, as the anchor of European government. creates a fertile breeding ground for the far right, as I There has been much agitated activity in seeking to predicted as far back as 1990. resolve the Greek bankruptcy, but there has been no There is no growth in Europe, except in Germany. We result. A few days ago I came across a five-page article cannot grow from a stagnant Europe, and the coalition written in 1998 setting out exactly why Greece should cannot achieve its main objective of reducing the deficit not be allowed into the European Union, which was of and achieving growth so long as this paralysis continues. course ignored. Every member state is responsible for The remedy of the Eurocrats—and, indeed, the leaders this failure of judgment and must bear the consequences. of European Government and the Liberal Democrat It is a pity that those such as George Soros who are now leadership in this country—is a fatal obstruction to our wringing their hands in Davos did not listen to the present and future economic success. Euro-realist arguments instead of condemning and mocking The approach adopted by the Prime Minister today them. at Davos reflects the view that I expressed in my pamphlet On the draft agreement, we must bear in mind that “It’s the EU, Stupid” and the growth paper that has the issues now being presented to the British electorate been circulated to all Members of Parliament and the and the European Union are more political than legal. Lords and others, as well as in my remarks to the There are still fundamental legal problems in the latest Minister of State, Cabinet Office, which is that we need draft of the agreement between the 26. There must be to refocus our trade towards the rest of the world no misunderstanding: this deal is flawed in seeking to and not rely on the fact that we have 40% to 50% of our incorporate the European Commission and the European trade with the EU to provide the mainspring of our Court of Justice, which are institutions of the EU, into economic future. a non-EU treaty. Furthermore, what is the basis in the treaty on the Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Emphasis is functioning of the European Union for the proposed constantly placed on our trade with the European Union, powers, including infringement powers, to be conferred but it is not always pointed out that we have a massive on the European Commission under article 8 of the trade deficit with the EU. Given the austerity measures agreement? Prima facie, that is unlawful, given the here and over there—but particularly over there—that prohibition on infringement proceedings under article is only going to get worse. 126(10) of the treaty. There are serious doubts about the use of article 273 in relation to issues of jurisdiction. Mr Cash: Indeed. In 2009 there was a trade deficit of There is also the issue of enhanced co-operation under £14 billion in goods and services, but since then it has article 10, which bypasses the treaty requirement that risen to £51 million. Those figures speak for themselves. enhanced co-operation should be used only as a last Cuts in public expenditure cannot solve the problem resort; the agreement proposes its use “whenever appropriate on their own. We need enterprise for small and medium- and necessary”. This could cause serious damage to sized businesses and drastic cuts in overregulation. We British national interests in relation to the internal need enterprise, not strangulation. Indeed, we must market. insist on our ability to enter into trade relationships on My Committee, the European Scrutiny Committee, our own terms, in our own national interests, and not be will be investigating all these matters with the assistance confined to a single trade policy dictated by the European of evidence from witnesses from all sides of the equation. Commission. There is a further problem of whether the treaty to I was deeply alarmed to read in today’s City A.M. establish the European stability mechanism can come that Angela Merkel at Davos is encouraging more into force before the amendment to the Lisbon treaty, integration. She is quoted as saying: so that member states could allow such a treaty, given “We have to become used to the European Commission becoming that the United Kingdom has not yet ratified it. I would more and more like a government.” be grateful if the Minister would answer these questions 433 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 434

[Mr Cash] in the European Union. No previous Conservative Prime Minister, whether John Major or Baroness Thatcher, when he responds to the debate; I hope that he is had taken such an approach, and we are about to see listening to what I am saying. We urgently need to know the consequences of the current Prime Minister’s decision whether the Government have received the fifth, and in the developments going on in the European Union presumably final, draft. If not, will he tell us when they this week. ECOFIN met this week to consider the will, and when it will be sent to the European Scrutiny fourth draft of the agreement—on which the House of Committee? Commons Library has produced a helpful note—for With regard to article 13, will the UK Parliament be the proposed inter-governmental arrangement on the involved in the proposed inter-parliamentary conference? future of the eurozone. That fourth draft agreement If so, will the European Scrutiny Committee be invited made some progress at this week’s meeting, but two to attend? At present no one knows how that arrangement issues were left for the bigger meeting that will take will work in practice—there are serious question marks place in the next few days: further discussion about over the agreement—but we know that it will be determined qualified majority voting and debt and deficit criteria; by German demands and conditions. I do not blame and the attendance of non-eurozone member states at Germany for its pride and defence of its own national the summit. interests, but I do not believe that we the UK should pay one penny to provide funds for an EU bail-out Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I must say that which, if it were done within the European Union itself, I find my hon. Friend’s speech somewhat astonishing in would be blatantly unlawful. blaming Britain for the problems in the eurozone. The Mme Lagarde, who is now head of the International problem, as the Father of the House said at Prime Monetary Fund, openly admitted in September 2010 Minister’s questions yesterday, is that the Germans are that to save the euro, refusing to bail out the weaker members. “we violated all the rules”. It is ironic that she should now be in charge of a further Mike Gapes: If my hon. Friend looks at Hansard,he attempt to bypass the rules. That is outrageous, and I will see that I was not blaming Britain for the problems am glad that America has quite rightly said that it in the eurozone, but saying correctly that our influence believes that Europe should sort out its own mess. in the European Union will be reduced because of the However, that will be achieved through policies for misguided tactics adopted by the Prime Minister. genuine growth, and not through bail-outs with fictitious money and a refusal to face up to Euro-reality. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the hon. We now live in peaceful democratic times, and we Gentleman give way? must therefore insist on our Westminster democracy as the basis for protecting our national interest. Let us Mike Gapes: I will make some progress first. therefore get down to the business of letting the British As a result of the European Union Act 2011, the people have their say, and of saving the United Kingdom Prime Minister has boxed himself into a position in which from impending disaster and the European Union from there must be no potential for a referendum in this itself. We must turn our eyes to the sunlit uplands of country. As he was trying to assuage his 81 Europhobic enterprise and international trade, earn our way in the Back Benchers, he took the easy option of making a world by our own efforts and re-create the foundations political decision rather than one in the national interest, of true independence of action and prosperity for our which would have been to remain in the negotiations own country. and to carry on trying to influence the outcome. As a result, when discussions conclude on the arrangements, Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): On if they are based on the fourth draft agreement—I a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise for interrupting quote the House of Commons Library Paper— the debate, but my attention has been drawn to media reports about the future of RAF Northolt, which is “the Heads of State or Government of contracting parties whose currency is not the euro who have ratified this Treaty and have next to my constituency. Apparently, there might be declared their intention to be bound by some of its provisions” Government plans to develop RAF Northolt as an alternative to the Boris island airport, or as a satellite would be invited terminal for Heathrow. That is potentially of huge “to a meeting of the Euro Summit”. concern to my constituents, and I wonder whether you However, those who did not agree to the intention to be have received a statement from the Government setting bound by the provisions and were not participating out their real thinking. would have no automatic right to attend. The Library paper states: Mr Speaker: I have received no indication from the “This would appear to exclude the UK as a non-Euro, but Government of their intentions on this matter, but I crucially also a non-contracting State.” have a hunch that the hon. Gentleman will pursue the issue doggedly and tenaciously. There is a potential, therefore, for us no longer to be in the room, even as an observer, because of our misguided decision in December to walk away from the process. 12.30 pm Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The decision Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Is the hon. by the Prime Minister to walk away from potential Gentleman seriously suggesting that it is wrong not to agreement at the European Council in December is a be in a room that is about as robust as a sinking Italian disaster for our country and for its long-term influence cruise liner? 435 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 436

Mike Gapes: I suspect that when the eurozone finally that nothing we say is worth listening to. That must be resolves the crisis, whether this week, which is doubtful, one lesson that we take from the European Council in or on 1 and 2 March, which might be more likely, and December. when the 20 or so countries—perhaps 25 or 26, depending Whatever view hon. Members hold about that Council on how many of the existing 17 euro countries and the and the decisions that were taken, we cannot doubt that others eventually sign up to the package—agree to the European Union is at a fundamental crossroads at abide by the provisions, our influence will cease to be as which it must confront a number of serious issues that strong as it has been. As a result, one other thing will affect all European Union citizens. As the financial develop: the pre-meeting discussions that take place crisis has made plain, the European Union—its treaties within the European People’s party network, the and economic and monetary union—has not made conservative group that dominates the politics of the Europe stronger; indeed, its weaknesses have been made European Union—the right of centre, not the left of all the more clear. Currency union has not made countries centre, are in control in the EU—the Sarkozy-Merkel such as Greece, Portugal and Spain competitive with meetings, or meetings involving Poland and the new countries such as Germany.In some ways, it has exacerbated right-wing Government in Spain, will not include the their weaknesses. Currency union has made it easier for UK. When the bigger countries pre-cook the agendas, countries such as Germany to export at low cost across we will not be there and we will not be heard. That is the countries of Europe and has held back the march of potentially very dangerous. competitiveness that should have come in some of the weaker countries. Mr Redwood: Does the hon. Gentleman not understand that one has to pay to play? If we were in the room, the The mechanisms of stability and convergence created other countries would expect us to divvy up, as they are at Maastricht to try to bring economies closer together short of money. have, over the years, been undermined by member states and have not been followed. If they had, perhaps the Mike Gapes: More than half our trade is with the crisis would not have been as great as it is. We are where European Union. Our companies, and the future of the we are, however, and the challenge for Europe is now a City of London and its relationship with the eurozone test of nerve— whether it will plough on in the same old economy, are greatly affected by what happens in Europe. way or whether it is serious about embracing change Those who want to move out to the middle of the and leading in a fundamentally new direction towards a Atlantic or who believe that somehow we can reinvigorate Europe that is more competitive and open, which embraces the Commonwealth and go back to imperial preference, the world rather than seeking to pull in on itself. are not living in the real world for the British economy. Our national interest is to have prosperity and success. Kelvin Hopkins: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that As the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made clear, it is if European Union member states had their own currencies in Britain’s national interest for the eurozone to succeed and could adjust them to the appropriate parities for and for the current crisis to be resolved. Clearly, their economies, they would all be more able to reflate Conservative Members do not agree with the Chancellor’ and we could have better growth and prosperity for words. They wish to see the eurozone fail—[HON.MEMBERS: everyone? “Rubbish!”] Well, the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) seemed to say that. If he disagrees, he can intervene again. They want to see the eurozone fail Damian Collins: The hon. Gentleman makes a good because they believe that somehow that will be in the point and I am sure that citizens in Greece, Portugal, national interest of this country. It will not. Italy and Spain will be asking in whose interest the survival of the euro is as it stands. They will be able to Several hon. Members rose— see that it is in the interests of the Germans and some of the stronger economies, as they have an artificially low Mike Gapes: I have no time left. currency that makes it easier for them to export across It is time that the country looked to its long-term Europe. I am sure that is one reason why the German national interests, as opposed to the short-term party economy has continued to do well. Those citizens will interests of this dysfunctional coalition. Those long-term also ask, however, what is in it for them and whether national interests are in working consistently and positively they—and Europe—would be better off in the long run in Europe, and recognising that we have potential allies if countries with weaker economies and bigger problems in Europe. However, our misguided negotiating tactics with debt were able to reach a much more sustainable have forced those potential allies away from us. This is level for their currency. the most self-defeating, insane strategy. It is not in our long-term national interests, and it is a shame for our country. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): In actual fact, in countries such as Spain and Greece there is no such campaign to leave the euro—any campaign, such as it 12.38 pm is, is very minor. The vast majority of people accept that the euro is there to stay and they want to make it work. Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Following the remarks of the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike To return to the hon. Gentleman’s earlier point about Gapes), it should be stated clearly that we can never the stability and growth pact, the only way that it could have a negotiating position, in any area of life, let alone have worked would have been if the European Union in a European Council meeting, if we are never prepared had had power to enforce audit on countries and to to say no and walk away from the table. Otherwise, enforce the rules. That is an argument for more Europe, people will believe that we will always capitulate, and not for less. 437 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 438

Damian Collins: The problem with the stability rules and leaders in Europe have been blinded by the political has been that when there should have been interventions objectives behind the euro to whether it is truly sustainable or challenges the opportunity has been ducked. That for those countries. has allowed countries to fudge the rules, has made a Hon. Members have already remarked that trade is shambles of the stability pact and has undoubtedly led an important part of our membership of the European to the crisis we face now. It demonstrates something Union and that half of our trade is with the EU. That is that many hon. Members have known for a very long true, but UK trade figures for the past 10 years show time: this was primarily a political project and the that the growth comes from trade not with the member objective was to get as many countries in as possible states of the European Union but with the emerging and to keep them in whatever the cost, even if the cost consumer markets around the world, in Brazil, Russia, was to the member states. China and India. That is common in countries such as The other point made by the hon. Member for Rhondda Germany, too, because as the world economy grows (Chris Bryant) was about the concern in member states and there are more consumers, we need to be in the about whether staying in the euro is good for them or market competing for their goods and services. not. Since the December Council we have seen a greater understanding of what staying in the euro will mean. In Mr Redwood: Does my hon. Friend recognise that effect, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr because of the Rotterdam entrepot effect of goods Cash) said in his speech, it will mean that the European going through that port to other parts of the world and Commission will decide on budgets for member states, because of large service exports to non-EU countries, on debt levels and on spending and will enforce measures the true figure is under a third? It is nowhere near half. through the European Court to correct those states if Damian Collins: I thank my right hon. Friend for that they do not comply. The price of continued membership important contribution. It follows my point that the of the eurozone will then look increasingly high. I future of our trade and growth will increasingly lie believe that might lead some countries to question beyond the borders of the EU and not solely within it. whether to stay in—or, perhaps, the markets will make That should not make us any less European; we must that decision for them. No doubt the events of the next simply recognise that the world economy is growing, few months will give us a good idea of how that will that it is growing outside the EU and that those economies play out. are increasingly competitive. They have more consumers The challenge is for Europe not to continue as a with more money in their pockets and more demand for fortress Europe, but, instead, to be a market Europe the products we can sell. Our challenge, and that for that looks to open itself up to the world. That is the best Europe, is to make ourselves open to those markets. thing for its competitiveness and prosperity and for the Rather than having European rules and regulations, future of all its citizens. particularly on social and environmental law, that seek This month, the European Council published “The to add costs and make us less competitive, we should European Council in 2011” , which looks back at the review them and consider whether they are truly fit for previous year. The President of the Council, Mr Van the modern world in which we live. That would give us Rompuy, said that the chance to compete in this more competitive and growing global economy. “we can draw confidence from the political will we mustered in the past year”. That is the crisis that Europe faces as it reaches its crossroads. Its rules and regulations have created a I am glad that one person in Europe draws confidence union that is less competitive than it should be and from the political will mustered by the European Council, more weighed down with debt. Currency union has not because I think most people see a failure of leadership supported the weaker countries but has emboldened and a great deal of concern about the effectiveness of and added weight to the strength of those already that body to lead in the future. strong economies, such as Germany. Those fundamental In the same chapter of the book, which is entitled issues must be addressed as Europe faces its crisis. I “The road ahead”, Mr Van Rompuy goes on to say: believe that they are the issues that the Council must “The key for the future is to harness the forces of change.” tackle. It will require a more flexible and open Europe in which, I believe, the UK can act as a fellow traveller, I believe that is right: Europe needs to harness the forces setting the course of direction. We must be very clear of change. That requires a change of direction, however, that if Europe will not move and will not change, we rather than acceleration down the old worn path, which cannot afford to be held back by it. is where it is heading. 12.46 pm The document also states that the level of economic integration—in effect, the creation of a common economic Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): It is a pleasure policy—will remain high on the agenda for the European to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Folkestone Council this year. It states: and Hythe (Damian Collins), which was measured and considered. He will forgive me if I do not embrace his “‘Member States shall regard their economic policies as a term “fellow traveller” as Britain’s destiny in the coming matter of common concern’. In 2012, we will further examine a deepening of our economic union, a subject on which I will report years, as those of us who know our history do not really to the March European Council.” like that language. It goes on to say: I was rather worried when the hon. Gentleman said that “the markets will make that decision for them”, “We must demonstrate that the euro is more than a currency: “them” being the people. I rather hope that at some an irreversible project, a common destiny.” stage we might have some recognition from the Conservative That underlines the concerns that many of us have had party that markets should be the servants of the people, for some time that the leaders of the European Council not their masters. 439 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 440

Damian Collins: The point I was making was that the Swindon (Mr Buckland) is about to make a pro-European markets will make the decision for the European Council speech I shall welcome that. None the less, that is the members and for the Governments and that if they do impression in this country. not act, they will be forced out. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Will Mr MacShane: I am very happy to hear the hon. the right hon. Gentleman give way? Gentleman gloss over his speech, but that is the point I was making. Mr MacShane: I have given way to two Europhobes, I am all for exporting to the BRICs, but their growth and I think three would be too many. It is a real worry rates are slowing. India is talking about a return to when one party, the governing party of our country, is “Hindu economic growth” and China might go as low so monolithic—without internal debate, internal division as 8% or 7%, which is a real worry for the Chinese or much internal discussion. [Interruption.] I look forward authorities. The same is the case in Brazil—[Interruption.] to hearing the speech of the hon. Member for North Hon. Members say that that is not bad and, of course, Wiltshire (Mr Gray) when he makes it. I would love a 7% growth rate for my own country, and Then we have the fundamental problem that this I shall come to that. However, rapidly developing countries Government and the ruling elites of the European throughout history have had very high growth rates Union are at one. Mr Sarkozy, Mrs Merkel, Mr Van when peasants and others move from the fields and core Rompuy, Mr Barroso, Mr Rajoy, Mr Berlusconi and industries are developed, but the plain fact is that we Mr Monti are all applying the 1930s austerity recession export more to Ireland than to all the BRICs combined. approach of making the poor pay and protecting Belgium exports more to India than we do. The absurd the rich, which is the official policy of Her Majesty’s notion that Brazil, India or Russia, run by kleptocrats, Government. I do not understand why there is any are an alternative to the mature, balanced, middle-class debate or division at all because for the first time those consumer economies of the European Union is not the other major European Union capitals and the Brussels right. institutions are on the same wavelength as Her Majesty’s Government. That is why there has to be some policy Mr Redwood: Does not the hon. Gentleman understand for growth, as people are pointing out again and again. that the markets that feed and clothe him are the Mrs Lagarde and Mr Soros have pointed that out and people? The markets we are talking about today are his Mr Obama is seeking to achieve it. pension savings, his other savings and those of millions Government Members are correct to suggest that not of other people who are trying to protect themselves only the European project but the entire western, from the euro disaster. democratic, liberal, rule-of-law, market economy project is under threat because of a generalised crisis based on inequality and the giving of too much power to money Mr MacShane: I do not really want to get into a and too little power to people. The answer to that must debate about the markets as I am also pro-market, but be forms of solidarity. In 1942, at the height of the war, the markets are also Mr Hester, the hedge fund billionaires before we had won El Alamein or turned any corner, and the donors to the Conservative party who make a Winston Churchill sent a Cabinet memorandum to his fortune out of speculation and who have so increased colleagues saying, “Hard as it may be to say at this time, inequalities in the past 30 years that we now have a I think we should start considering the possibility of a generalised social crisis that might cause severe dislocation. council of Europe for after the war. We need to move I do not share the cataclysmic views that some have towards a united states of Europe where all may travel about what the Prime Minister did on 9 December. I and trade freely. I think we should conduct studies think he was ill-advised, that he allowed the Treasury to about how to have economic unity.”How extraordinary run the negotiations and that the key decision was taken that at the height of the war—that was not the Zurich at a time—2.30 am—when no sane person should take speech—Winston Churchill had that vision for what we a decision. None the less, the plain fact is that across the have half-achieved, perhaps, in my lifetime and certainly rest of the European Union there is a sense that Britain in recent years. does not want to engage or be fully part of the EU. Last That is also why Mrs Thatcher, our then Prime Minister, week, at a conference with the former French Defence after pushing through the Single European Act—the Minister who negotiated the French side of the French- biggest transfer of sovereignty ever in British history— British defence treaty of 2010, I was surprised to hear supported the arrival of Jacques Delors as President of his extraordinary, virulent attack on what one could call the Commission. In 1984, our contribution to the EC “Albion perfide” and how Britain was no longer a budget was £656 million, but by 1990 she had increased defence player with France, was not prepared to co-operate it to £2.54 billion, quadrupling Britain’s solidarity budget and was doing all it could, he said, to sabotage the good to the then European Community. When tasked about effects that the treaty would have. That is the reputation that in the House of Commons, she said that of course we have and that worries me. we should help our poor friends in Portugal and Greece It also worries me to hear reports that one of the new and also implicitly in Ireland and Spain. She was absolutely intake on the Government Benches, whom I shall not right. That is why we set up the International Monetary name, said in a conference over the weekend that it Fund after the war—precisely to deal with imbalances, would have been impossible to have been selected as a crises, sudden recessions and, yes, Government Conservative candidate in recent years—or, indeed, to incompetences that produce the kind of problems that be a Conservative MP—without showing the most strident Greece and some other countries are facing. It is quite Euroscepticism. [Interruption.] Well, if there is an exception preposterous to say that Britain will renege on its obligations that proves the rule and if the hon. Member for South to the IMF. I was happy to vote with the Government 441 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 442

[Mr MacShane] debate in London on 9 January. The forum agreed a programme of reform and competitiveness for Europe on this in the last Division and I certainly hope that that would probably unite Conservative and Liberal Opposition Front Benchers are not going to play the Democrat Members of this House at least. That is a Eurosceptic card on the IMF question if the matter good example of how to build alliances across Europe comes back to the House. and engage with Europe in a proactive way. Finally, what do we have today? We have the surreal It is good to see Britain at the table for the summit. sight of a British Prime Minister in Davos not enjoying Clearly, there is the main summit, which is supposed to himself on the slopes but lecturing other European be focusing on prosperity and growth, but there is also leaders on what they should do. What example is he the rather important sideshow of the 26 making further citing—£1 trillion-worth of debt, recession economics, progress towards the fiscal compact, which is critical for mounting unemployment or mounting poverty? There Britain, and I am very pleased that the Government are mounting concerns all over the world, as the Chinese have made sure that Britain is an active participant in told the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he was in the process, albeit with observer status. I know that Beijing recently, about whether Britain is serious about Ministers have been active behind the scenes getting marginalising itself in Europe and not helping to support Britain involved in the process and making sure, for Europeans with problems through the IMF. If it is, instance, that the fiscal compact treaty does not spill China cannot be interested in Britain because it is not over into areas outside its proper remit, such as the interested in an isolated, protectionist Britain. construction of the single market. As Liberal Democrats We are taking huge risks with our economy and our have pointed out, that is one of the risks of our relatively nation by promoting these new, protectionist, isolationist isolated situation in Europe. politics. It is bad enough that we have to live with 1930s, Treasury-driven economics, but it will be a disaster if Mr Redwood: Does the hon. Gentleman think that at Britain continues to have the reputation it has sadly this point the power to fine Greece and then fining her earned internationally as a country that wants to turn would cut the Greek deficit? its back on Europe and that seriously believes its future could lie only in competing with Belgium for exports to Martin Horwood: I shall not be drawn into that. India. This is a turning point for our nation. We either Critically, it is for the eurozone countries to address the break out of this isolationist, protectionist logjam and crisis in the eurozone. The right hon. Gentleman highlights work in solidarity with the countries of Europe that are the important point that just by drawing up a treaty the growing and creating jobs and that have much better eurozone countries do not solve some of the rather public finances than we have, or we pretend, in our own fundamental problems in the eurozone. In fact, the little sinking ship, that everything is for the best and this situation in Greece is becoming increasingly serious and is the best of all possible worlds. it needs to be urgently addressed—that is even more the case now than in recent months. Several hon. Members rose— The importance of the main business of the summit must not be neglected. Britain’s re-engagement in European Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We affairs is critical and it must be pushed forward. There are in a very serious position with a lot of Members have already been some successes. My right hon. Friend wishing to speak. I am going to have reduce the time the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and limit to five minutes, and even with that limit not all Skills helped to create the like-minded growth group, Members will get in if people intervene. which has pushed forward ideas such as lifting onerous accounting rules from the smallest businesses in this 12.57 pm country. I think the group has helped to create a shift in Commission attitudes on the smallest businesses to the Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): First, I point where it has committed to review all existing EU congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on legislation to look for other opportunities to lift onerous selecting this topic for debate, although on this occasion regulation from such businesses and to screen new I agree with the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) that legislation to see whether, wherever possible, the smallest it might have been better to debate this issue in Government businesses can be excluded. That is exactly the kind of time as it is critical for this country. agenda we should be pushing in Europe. While I am on the theme of congratulations, let me congratulate Sharon Bowles, MEP,on her recent re-election Mr Leigh: I want to make an intervention that the as chair of the economic and monetary affairs committee hon. Gentleman and I can both agree with. Does he of the European Parliament. She was once voted one of agree with the point I have been making consistently at the top 10 economic regulators in the world and she has business questions that this debate is so important that presided over innovations such as the attempt to introduce in future we should have it in Government time, for a regulation on bankers’bonuses that would prevent someone whole afternoon, with the Foreign Secretary or the like Fred the Shred from ever again walking away with a Prime Minister here so that we can ask them detailed huge bonus from a failing bank. For that alone she questions? deserves congratulation and I am pleased to see her retaining her place as one of the most influential Liberal Martin Horwood: I think that is right, although the Democrats in Europe. point I am making is that the jobs and prosperity I repeat my earlier congratulations to the Deputy agenda should be the focus of such debates. If possible, Prime Minister on convening the European Liberal we should get away from the obsession with structures leaders forum on issues relating specifically to this and treaties. The British Government should be pushing 443 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 444 the jobs and prosperity agenda at the summit. I have Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member suggested some areas for deregulation and the European for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), and I saw Liberal leaders forum drew up a long list of legislation him assert that he is pro-European, which is great, but it that should be reviewed for possible reform. It included is wrong that the Foreign Secretary is not with us. the working time regulations, the temporary agency I want to raise two issues that are not on the Council workers directive, the control of vibration at work agenda but should be. The first is Cyprus. For far too regulations, fixed-term employees regulations, part-time long, the European Union has had within it a divided workers regulations, control of noise at work regulations, country, with a divided capital city. It affects many road transport working time regulations and the people in the UK; there are strong Cypriot communities transnational information and consultation of employees in Cardiff and elsewhere in the country. The real problems regulations. faced by the Cypriot economy could be resolved easily if one were to overcome the political problems, because Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Scrap them. Turkey is the fastest growing economy on the borders of Europe. I hope that the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Martin Horwood: I am not at all in favour of scrapping Minister will make it clear that we want progress in health and safety regulations or those designed to protect Cyprus, and this is no bad time for it, when Greece is workers. They are extremely important. The point is not trying to resolve some of its own economic problems. even necessarily to weaken health and safety and workers The other foreign policy issue that should be on the regulations in Europe, but to see whether they can be agenda is Russia. The elections just before Christmas made more flexible and be applied more flexibly were a complete and utter farce. In a vast majority of domestically. That is another area where the British areas, they were corrupt, as every organisation sent to agenda should be pushed. monitor the elections made clear. Absolutely nothing There are signs that European Governments are has been done. There have been many warm words from increasingly seeing things our way; it is not just the 15 Mr Putin and Mr Medvedev, yet there has been no members of the like-minded growth group. Italy has action. We still have no resolution of the cases of traditionally been more renowned for a protectionist Mr Khodorkovsky and Mr Platon Lebedev, both of stance in Europe and has at times had a less than whom are purely prisoners of conscience, and not tax impressive record on implementing single market legislation, evaders. There is also the case of Sergei Magnitsky who but it is now actively implementing measures to liberalise worked for a British company. great swathes of its economy and is actively pushing a single market agenda in Brussels that is directly comparable The British Government should make it absolutely to ours. Spain, under the new Government led by Señor clear that Europe will manage to improve its business Rajoy, is also moving to undertake major structural with Russia only when corruption is rooted out in reforms domestically and is shifting its position in Europe Russia. That will not happen if country after country accordingly.Ministers must build on such possible alliances, tries to make its own sordid little deals; it will only which seem to be growing stronger all the time. happen if the whole of the European Union acts in concert and in union to make it clear that Russia has to There are other things that I probably do not have clean up its act. time to cover in great detail. In terms of promoting jobs and prosperity, it is important to push for the completion I believe in more Europe rather than less Europe. I of the single market, particularly in the digital and say that unambiguously. I said to the hon. Member for services sectors. External trade is equally important. Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) that enforced This morning, I was in a Committee that voted on a audit would have meant that we did not get into the new framework agreement that included free trade with hole we are in, and there are other areas. The United South Korea. It could soon be extended to Ukraine and Kingdom was wrong when we decided to go our own possibly a range of other countries. That is the kind of way, with Ireland, saying that there were to be no thing that will drive jobs and prosperity in Europe, not transitional arrangements with regard to people from an overly obsessive attitude to EU treaties and institutions. the new member states working in the UK. One of the reasons why so many people came here was that every Several hon. Members rose— other country in the EU was going down a different route. It would have made far more sense if there had Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I call Chris been a single European decision on that policy area. Bryant. Mr MacShane: At a conference last week, the German 1.4 pm film-maker, Volker Schlöndorff said how much he wished that 1 million-plus Poles had gone to Germany and Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Thank you very much, learned German and then gone home imbued with Mr Deputy Speaker. I thought you were about to call German ideas, language and contacts to build a closer somebody more senior. relationship between Poland and Germany. We have I agree with the hon. Members who said it is a shame made 1 million-plus Polish friends because of our policy; that the debate has had to rely on the kindness of the it has been good for Poland and good for us. Backbench Business Committee. When I was Minister for Europe it was an important part of our mandate Chris Bryant: I hope we have made a lot of Polish that before we went to a European Council we had to friends. When I was a curate in High Wycombe, we had turn up in the House, in Government time, to answer a a long-standing Polish community there, many of whom debate, even if it meant inconvenience for Ministers. It fled German ideas about Polish people from the 1930s is a terrible shame that the Foreign Secretary is not here. and 1940s. But I still think it would have been better for I respect enormously the Under-Secretary of State for us if there had been a whole-European decision. We 445 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 446

[Chris Bryant] into jobs, their debts and deficits go on soaring, and now in three cases member states of the euro area underestimated the number of Polish people who would cannot finance those deficits in the normal way and come to the United Kingdom and that was a mistake have to be on life support from the EU and the IMF. for our economy. Anyone from Brazil, China, Russia or India—or, for Martin Horwood: On the subject of the right hon. that matter, Mexico or Turkey—would say that they are Gentleman’s support for the Prime Minister, will he join all interested in trying to do business with one set of me in welcoming the Prime Minister’s remarks this rules in Europe, not 27, on the size of plugs, on electricity, morning in Davos, when he said, and on many other elements. I believe it is in our “Let me be clear. To those who think that not signing the treaty interests that we should strive ever more for the extension means Britain is somehow walking away from Europe let me tell of the single market, so that we can do better out of the you, nothing could be further from the truth”? growing economies of the world; otherwise, our future will be on the sidelines, not at the heart, of the world’s Mr Redwood: Of course the Prime Minister is right history. that we are in the European Union and all the time we remain in it we have to use our membership as best we I have anxieties about the Government’s attitude on can to protect the interests of the British people. these issues. I know the Prime Minister tries to show a little bit of leg to Conservative Back Benchers and then The main purpose of the summit must be to try to to his European allies. There is a little bit of leg being deliver greater prosperity and some growth and some shown here, there and everywhere. But the truth is that hope to the peoples of Europe, because their hope has we need British businesses to be far more courageous been depressed and their prosperity is being destroyed about doing business in Europe; they should not just by a system that cannot conceivably work. The euro sally forth and speak louder—shout in more grammatically area is now locked into a system of mutually assured incorrect English than they would to their children—in deflation, a mad policy, and the more those countries’ the belief that they will get a contract. We must have economies decline, the more the deficits go up, the more more ambition when it comes to Europe. they have to cut. They cannot get themselves out by monetary means, in the way that the United Kingdom I would say to those who said earlier that they praised and the United States can, by creating more money in the Prime Minister before Christmas that—leaving aside their system, and they cannot get out by having a my opinion that it is giving the Prime Minister that competitive exchange rate. dangerous element of messianism, which is always worrying for a Prime Minister—the child who has stormed off to Mike Gapes rose— his bedroom is rarely the person in the family who wins the argument. Mr Redwood: I am sure that was the point that the hon. Gentleman wanted to make. 1.11 pm Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I rise to Mike Gapes: If the right hon. Gentleman is so against support the Prime Minister. I think he had no alternative the austerity deflation policies in the eurozone, why is but to say no to a very unsatisfactory deal and to a he supporting the austerity policies of his own Government? totally inappropriate proposed measure at that Council. Nor do I think he has lost Britain influence by doing it; Mr Redwood: Because, as I just explained, it is totally I think he has won Britain influence by doing it. We different if a country has its own currency and can use learned subsequently that several non-euro member monetary mechanisms to try and grow its way out of states could not go along with the draft any more than the problems, and can establish an exchange rate that the United Kingdom could. We also learned subsequently allows it to export its way out of the problems, which is that France, Germany and others are now beating a exactly what these countries have to do, and are unable path to the United Kingdom Foreign Office door, trying to do because they are locked in. to get us back on board, trying to woo us because we had the courage to say no. Mr MacShane rose— We meet today because we wish to influence our Government in what they are doing at yet another Mr Redwood: I have no more injury time available, so important European summit. The European Central I need to develop my argument rapidly. Bank has bought the Europeans a little time by printing If those countries are to have some hope of prosperity, and lending unprecedented sums of money to a very they need to solve the two underlying problems. It is weak European banking system, but those meeting obvious to most external observers that the way to solve would be wise to understand that that has only bought the problem of competitiveness quickly is to devalue. a little time; it has not solved the underlying problem. Normally, an IMF programme for a country in trouble Indeed, there are two underlying problems. There is the not only asks it to cut its budget deficit and reduce its inability of the southern countries to compete with excess public spending, but suggests that it devalue its Germany at the fixed exchange rate within the euro, currency and move to a looser monetary policy domestically, making them poor and giving them large balance of so that there can be private sector-led growth, export-led payments deficits which they have trouble financing; growth—the kind of thing it needs to get out of its and there is the big problem of the southern states’ debt disastrous position. That is exactly what those countries getting ever bigger. Because their economies are are unable to do. That is why the IMF should not lend a malfunctioning, because so many people are out of country like Greece a single euro or a single dollar. work and because they cannot price themselves back Greece is to the euro area as California is to the dollar 447 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 448 area: it is not an independent sovereign state, and it They should cast aside the draft instrument. It is irrelevant; cannot do two of the three things that a country needs it cannot work. They should sit down in private and to do to get back into growth and prosperity, because it work out how to get non-competitive countries out of cannot devalue and it cannot create enough credit and this mess before even more damage is done to their money within its own system. economies and their democracies. We need to give honest advice to our partners and colleagues in the eurozone, around the European conference 1.19 pm table—in private, not in public—that the only way forward, the only way to resolve the crisis for those Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is always a pleasure countries that can no longer borrow in the marketplace to follow the right hon. Member for Wokingham at sensible rates of interest, is to have an orderly way of (Mr Redwood) who, in his 25 years in this House, has letting them out as quickly as possible, so that they can always been strong and consistent in his criticisms of re-establish their own currency, their own looser and the European Union. appropriate monetary policy and their own banking I add my voice to all those who have spoken in favour policy, and offer some hope to their subject peoples. of there always being a senior Minister at the Dispatch Box to introduce a debate such as this. When the right I am very worried that this is not only an economic hon. Gentleman was a Secretary of State, the Minister crisis, this is not only a banking crisis, this is not only a for Europe in that Government wound up the debate, currency crisis, but it is also now a crisis of democracy. which would have been started by the Foreign Secretary, The challenge, in countries such as Greece and Spain, is and when I and then my hon. Friend the Member for how the Governments manage to get buy-in to the Rhondda (Chris Bryant) served as Minister for Europe, policy of deflation, and cuts with everything, that is the this debate was considered an important opportunity— only offering from the euro scheme and the euro system. perhaps the only opportunity—for Back Benchers to We see in some of these countries now that the electorates influence the Government as the Prime Minister, the do not choose the Government; the European Union’s Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe went to senior players choose the Government. We see in some European summits. I therefore hope the first message of these countries that the electorate change the the Government will take from the debate is the unity of Government but they do not change the policy. The opinion in the House—I have not heard a single opposing new Government have to pledge to follow exactly the voice—that this should be a debate in Government same policy, which does not work, in order to get time, with Members not limited to five minutes in which elected and to be acceptable to the European Union, in to state their views. order to carry on drawing down the subsidies and loans from within the European Union that have to be on My second point is to ask the Minister to tell us when offer to try to make the system operate to some extent. he winds up what has happened to the Lisbon strategy. It was agreed at the Lisbon summit in 2000 as part of I hope that the British Government will adopt the the Lisbon agenda, developed over 10 years and adopted following position. I hope that they will say in public, very recently with a set of five headline benchmarks. whenever asked about the euro, that the British Government Does that strategy still exist, given the eurozone crisis? have no intention of providing any running commentary Are the Government still committed to delivering in on the euro whatever, and have no intention of saying those five areas—employment, investment in research anything that makes the position of the euro worse, but and development, education, poverty and greenhouse will always give good, strong, independent advice in gas emissions—which were set at the first ever summit private. That should be the public position. It is too to benchmark EU economic policy? Are we on track to dangerous to say things. Most of the things that politicians do so? I get the feeling from discussions that I have had say about bond markets and currency crises make the and from the responses to questions I put to Ministers, position worse, so the United Kingdom would be well including the Prime Minister when he returned from the advised to have a simple formula, which all Ministers last summit, that although there is an intention to use, that we are providing no commentary on the euro support the Lisbon strategy, it is certainly not high up and we wish the euro members well in sorting it all out. on the Government’s agenda. I think that, given that In private, we are important allies and partners of the this informal meeting is about growth and jobs, it is euro area and the British Government need to give extremely important that we have benchmarks for the honest advice to try to get our continent out of this EU. mess. I do not believe there is a single fix that can solve My third point is about EU enlargement, of which I that problem for all the countries currently in the euro. am a great supporter. It has been of great benefit not Many of them went into the euro with inflation rates only to the eastern European countries that have joined that were too high, with state deficits and debts that but to our country in particular. Croatia is due to join in were too high, and with currencies that were not in line July 2013. The EU has given Croatia ¤150 million to with the German currency. It was a huge error. The support its entry, and it will give another ¤150 million founders of the euro knew that there had to be very this year and ¤95 million next year. Will the Minister strict requirements; they broke them from day one. tell us whether that is the final figure; whether there will It will not solve the problem to sign up to some new be any increase or, because of the euro crisis, any constitutional pact that says that a country down on its decrease in the amount we give Croatia; and whether luck, unable to borrow money, running out of cash, will that will continue after Croatia joins the EU? be fined. Who will pay the fine? The answer is that the This is a very short debate and we have to make very fine would have to be lent to the country in trouble by short speeches, but if those three points can be conveyed the very people who are fining it. It is so preposterous to the Prime Minister when he attends the summit and if that I find it very difficult to believe that serious people the Minister can indicate the Government’s position when can sit round a table, negotiating such an instrument. he winds up, I am happy to conclude my remarks now. 449 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 450

Several hon. Members rose— now. There are three things we should do, the first of which is to have a plan and not pretend that a break-up Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Before calling will not happen. I accept the suggestion made by my the next speaker, let me say that, ideally, I will call the right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham first Front-Bench speaker at 28 minutes past 1. I call (Mr Redwood) that the plan should be made in secret, Bernard Jenkin. but there should be a plan and the IMF should be its guardian. Secondly, the plan should be clear on what 1.23 pm liabilities will be denominated in what currencies as each country comes out of the euro—easy for sovereign Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): debt and very complicated for commercial paper, but it This debate is being conducted between some right hon. has to be done. Thirdly, the G20 must be ready to and hon. Members with an extraordinary air of provide the liquidity needed to deal with the defaults complacency and myopia. The European Union is on that will occur as each country comes out of the euro— the edge of the most appalling crisis—a self-inflicted massive defaults that will require massive central crisis that many of us predicted when the euro was first Government printing of money to recapitalise the European conceived in the early 1990s and is now being fuelled by banking system. blindness and denial. The fundamental problem is that That can be done and it has to be done. My right hon. the euro cannot work—it cannot succeed. There are Friend the Prime Minister was absolutely right to veto fundamental structural flaws that are destined to cause the treaty on 9 December. He knows there can be no the euro eventually to fly apart into separate currencies. going back on that decision, because to do so would I do not want the euro to fail, but the fact remains that leave him a position where he might as well have not the crisis will go on and on until it does fail, so we vetoed the treaty, and then where would we be? should start to ask ourselves whether it is, in fact, in our interests that it be resolved quickly and in an orderly 1.29 pm fashion, instead of waiting for the markets to do their work. Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): The fundamental structural problem is that the different The debate comes at a crucial time for the eurozone and national components of the euro represent very different the wider European Union. Last month’s European economies, with different surpluses and deficits. The Council could and should have taken the vital decisions 2010 figures for trade in goods in the eurozone, provided needed to stabilise the eurozone and boost growth and by the Library, show that Germany has a surplus in jobs in the EU, but it failed to do so. Monday’s European exports to the other eurostates of ¤43.4 billion. Other Council is a vital chance to make up for previous lost countries have very large deficits: France’s is 4%, Greece’s opportunities, but I fear that the Prime Minister’s diminished 6% and Portugal’s 9%. Unless there is a system of fiscal position in Europe has jeopardised the Government’s transfers permanently operating to compensate for those ability to achieve and influence that. His walk-out at the surpluses and deficits, the European economies will previous European Council was a spectacular failure to become ever more out of balance. The debt problem engage with our European partners. We have a world-class has been greatly exacerbated by artificially low interest diplomatic service, but the Prime Minister refused to rates in countries that were used to much higher interest use the talent, professionalism and experience of the rates and therefore borrowed vast sums. Foreign Office and opted instead to let the Treasury run our foreign policy. He decided that keeping his Back Benchers happy was more important than helping our Mr Leigh: Is it in our interests that the other countries main export market resolve the eurozone crisis. He in succeed in creating fiscal and monetary union? We will fact followed the advice of the Foreign Secretary who, be excluded from a massive monetary union, which according to various reports, before the last European historically—for centuries—we have tried to avoid. Or Council told him: is it in our interests that the euro gradually breaks up in a reasonably orderly way? “If it is a choice between keeping the euro together or keeping the Conservative party together, it is in the national interest to keep the Conservative party together.” Mr Jenkin: I do not subscribe to the view that British That is the only thing that the Prime Minister did foreign policy should be constantly to try to divide and achieve, because he did not stop anything happening. rule on the continent. Actually, I think it would be in His diplomatic defeatism was accurately summed up by our interests if the euro succeeded with a democratic the Deputy Prime Minister earlier this month, when he settlement in the European Union, but for the euro to said: succeed with 17 nations the institutions would be required “The language gets confusing. Veto suggests something was to take on much more power, to accumulate much more stopped. It was not stopped.” taxation and to distribute money much more than they do now, and I put it to the House that because there is a I could not agree more. democratic deficit in the EU, which everyone acknowledges, Martin Horwood: The hon. Lady makes some of the the institutions lack the legitimacy and the authority to points that I made several months ago and that other be able to impose their will across the democratic nations hon. Members sympathetic to the pro-European cause of the EU. There is a fundamental lack of consent to made at the time of the summit. Surely we have now what would be required to impose the necessary discipline. moved on. The Prime Minister, in his remarks today at The problem with the fiscal union treaty is that it is a Davos, quite clearly stated; case of Germany trying to write German rules for the “It fundamentally reflects our national interest to be part of whole eurozone. That will not work—it cannot be the single market on our doorstep and we have intention of sustained—and the result will be the break-up of the walking away. So let me be clear: we want Europe to be a success.” euro, so we had better start planning for that eventuality The process of re-engagement is under way. 451 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 452

Emma Reynolds: The process of re-engagement might tall in Beijing and the other major emerging economies. be under way, but the Prime Minister’s decision to walk With economic power moving south and east, to countries out of a summit that did not have a text to it has the size of continents, it is nostalgic longing for the undermined our influence in the EU. His spectacular empire to think that the UK can go it alone. It was the mishandling bought him short-term political respite Minister for Europe, in a recent Opposition day debate, from the pressure of his Back Benchers, but they will who said that always want more, and we heard that in today’s debate. “without the size of the EU behind us, the United Kingdom on its own is unlikely to be able to secure the same deep and ambitious Mr MacShane: May I pray in aid the Deputy Prime free trade deals with other regions or trading countries around Minister, who said that the Conservative party in the the world.”—[Official Report, 13 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 724.] European Parliament is now allied with “nutters, anti- Semites and homophobes”? The right hon. Gentleman Mr Cash: Will the hon. Lady give way? has not resiled from that. That is walking away from Europe. As long as the Conservative party is in alliance Emma Reynolds: I will in a minute. with those weirdos, it loses a good part of the political The task of Monday’s European Council is both traction that it should have in Europe. urgent and long term—urgent in that it must address the lack of confidence in European markets, but alongside Emma Reynolds: My right hon. Friend makes a valid that the EU must enhance the resilience and capacity of point. If the Prime Minister had not pulled his MEPs the single market to get back to a sustainable footing in from the mainstream centre right in the European the long term. Parliament when he was Leader of the Opposition, he would have found that he had much more influence We welcome the intention to focus on jobs and growth before the summit, because he would have been in on Monday, as well as agreeing a fiscal compact. We Marseille for the European People’s party meeting in would prefer the Government, rather than merely preparation for the European Council summit. commentating on the outcome of the European Council, to be setting the agenda. We hope that their failure in It is of real concern to the Opposition that by isolating diplomacy will not involve a failure of policy and the UK the Government have lost influence with our economics. After all, in the coalition agreement, the European partners and could lose influence over the Tories and the Liberal Democrats stated that Britain single market. Deeper fiscal integration by the eurozone should play a leading role in the EU. The Prime Minister countries does not necessarily lead to the development clearly did not have that in mind in December. of separate trade policies or separate decisions on the single market, but that could come about if the UK Mr Cash: Will the hon. Lady give way? continues to lose influence. I understand that the Polish Government are now Emma Reynolds: When the Minister replies, will he seeking to secure a seat at the frequent eurozone summits—a clarify one issue? The Deputy Prime Minister has been logical negotiating position. If they are successful, they organising his own meetings, and in some cases he would then have a voice, even if they did not have vote, seems to be running his own parallel foreign policy. at eurozone summits. As it stands, our Government will While it is right for the Government to be building be barred from such meetings, leaving the UK without a bridges, it is disappointing that the Deputy Prime Minister vote and without a voice, unable to guard against has thus far chosen not to report the outcome of the eurozone Heads of State and Government straying into meetings to Parliament. Would the Minister therefore areas of decision making that are relevant to the EU of confirm whether the Deputy Prime Minister was speaking 27. for the Government when, at the recent European Liberal forum, he said: Mr Redwood: Will the hon. Lady bring us up to date “We believe— with Labour’s thinking on any vote that we might face in this House on money for the IMF to lend on to the treaty— euroland countries in trouble? “should, over time, be folded into the existing EU treaties so you don’t get a permanent two parallel treaties working separately Emma Reynolds: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, from each other.”? the Opposition voted against the IMF contribution last At next Monday’s European Council, the British time. I think that he might have been in the Lobby with Government at least have observer status, but that is us. We think that the European central bank should be thanks to Chancellor Merkel and Prime Minister Monti, the lender of last resort and that IMF money should who want the UK back in the room. They see the UK as concentrate on countries with severe economic problems a leading member state, advocating an extension of the outside the eurozone. internal market. It is testament to past British diplomacy and previous Governments that many other member The Prime Minister’s walk-out also resulted in risks states share the view that, with Britain isolated and to foreign direct investment. Businesses investing from excluded from these talks, the push for further liberalisation the US and Asia have chosen the UK for their operations and reform becomes harder. because it gives them access to European markets. But if the UK’s position in the single market were in doubt, foreign direct investment would also be under threat. Mr Cash: Will the hon. Lady give way? Moreover, as the Deputy Prime Minister rightly said on the Sunday after the December Council, if the UK Emma Reynolds: The hon. Gentleman is frustrated, stands tall in Brussels, we stand tall in Washington. It is but he will understand that because interventions eat also true that if we stand tall in Brussels, we also stand into my time I will continue. 453 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 454

[Emma Reynolds] The eurozone needs to find a credible and sustainable solution to the debt crisis. Beyond that, there is a Britain’s standing in the world—economically and challenge for all 27 EU member states to release the politically—must be reinforced and strengthened, not brakes on growth to generate wealth, jobs and enterprise, weakened. The resolution of the eurozone crisis is manifestly and that was very much the focus of the speech made by in our national interest. It is also in the national interest my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe for the UK to be at the heart of the EU, a large member (Damian Collins). state with an open economy, arguing for and securing an extension of the single market, arguing for and Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): On the securing reform of the EU. The UK now needs to point of improved opportunities for the single market, regain that position and start rebuilding bridges. will my hon. Friend ensure that the Government take a On Monday the Prime Minister should seek to undo clear message to the Council that work on improved the damage caused by what he did in December, diminishing tariff reform between the UK and Japan is vital for the our standing in Europe and the world. It might not British motor industry, particularly Honda in Swindon, please his Back Benchers, but it would be of benefit to which is a Japanese company based in the UK? businesses, jobs and employees throughout the country. The Prime Minister must start to put the national Alistair Burt: I can make no stronger a case for interest before his party’s interest. Honda in Swindon than my hon. Friend has made. He is absolutely right to focus on competitiveness, growth 1.38 pm and the agenda that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will take forward there. I appreciate his comments. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign This informal European Council will rightly focus on and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): I thank the growth and competitiveness, and it is vital that it makes hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma progress ahead of the March European Council, which Reynolds) for her remarks and all colleagues for taking will also focus on growth. part in this important debate. I thank the Backbench The UK has played, and will continue to play, a Business Committee for finding the time for this debate strong and positive role in the EU as we and our on next Monday’s informal Council. We know that European partners face the most pressing task of tackling there are many calls on the time it has available to our shared economic challenges. We are leading the allocate, but as it now holds the time previously assigned arguments for growth and others continue to look to us for European affairs debates, I am pleased that it found for leadership. We have spearheaded the work of 16 time for this debate. member states, some inside the eurozone and some outside, in pressing for reforms to support growth. Mr Leigh: It is fantastic that my hon. Friend is here Together we have over the past year secured positive and we greatly respect him, but will he take back to the conclusions from European Councils that reflect our Foreign Secretary the clearly expressed wish of Members priorities. Action is now being taken, as shown by the on both sides of the House that we should have a full Commission agreeing to exempt micro-businesses from afternoon of debate in which he is present before any EU regulation unless a clear case can be made for their future European summits? inclusion. Alistair Burt: I thank my hon. Friend for his generous Our diplomatic efforts to build alliances for growth remarks. As he knows, occasionally colleagues cannot continue in the European Council. The UK has agreed be where they would like to be because of other business, growth priorities for the informal Council with the but I have heard what colleagues have said. My hon. Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Ireland and Estonia, Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) expresses which will cover: completing the single market; reducing an interest in how the House scrutinises European the regulatory burden; what member states should do to business, and I will certainly take back to the Minister improve labour markets; and reaffirming the importance for Europe and the Foreign Secretary what colleagues of the external dimension of the single market. have said. I would like to underline the effort and My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister also spoke valuable work of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone to the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, at the weekend (Mr Cash) and the European Scrutiny Committee. to discuss our shared priorities. They agreed that the steps we should take to strengthen growth and fight Chris Bryant: Will the Minister give way? unemployment, particularly youth unemployment, in Europe will form the focus of the informal Council on Alistair Burt: No, because I might take another Monday. A number of right hon. and hon. Members intervention on something else. Time is limited and I spoke about our engagement with Europe. The Prime cannot do justice to everyone. Minister was very clear today when talking about On Tuesday the International Monetary Fund published engagement, as my hon. Friend the Member for its world economic outlook. It revised down its global Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) made clear. In response growth forecasts, mainly because of developments in to the question the right hon. Member for Leicester the eurozone. It now expects the eurozone to enter a East (Keith Vaz) asked on Lisbon, I can tell him that recession in 2012, with GDP falling by 0.5%. Those of the Prime Minister today said in Davos: us outside the eurozone are not immune from that. The “For all the talk, the Lisbon Strategy has failed to deliver the ongoing sovereign debt crisis is having a chilling effect structural reforms we need.” on our economy, too. Like my hon. Friend the Member It has largely been replaced by Europe 2020, which for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), I do not includes the sorts of benchmark the right hon. Gentleman want to see the euro fail. referred to. The fact remains that we need to be bolder 455 European Council26 JANUARY 2012 European Council 456 in the structural reforms we pursue to promote growth. or the European economies. We have to combine fiscal The Prime Minister also said: discipline with a plan for more jobs and more growth, “Britain has been arguing for a pro-business agenda in Europe… and the Deputy Prime Minister was right to say it. Over the last year we have spearheaded work with 15 other As for lack of engagement and isolation, I am astonished member states across the EU... This weekend Chancellor Merkel that the presumption of the hon. Member for joined me in calling for a package of deregulation and liberalisation Wolverhampton North East in bringing to the House a policies… But we need to be bolder still. Here’s the checklist: all proposed EU measures tested for their impact on growth; a target challenge to the Government when the Opposition’s to reduce the overall burden of EU regulation; and a new position is distinctly unclear. We will continue to work proportionality test to prevent needless barriers to trade in services hard with our many allies in Europe to advance our and slash the number of regulated professions in Europe. Together interests. It is not isolation; it is defending the national with our international partners, we also need to take decisive interest. We differ from others in that we are not in the action to get trade moving.” euro and do not want to join. We will not proceed with That is what the EU needs, and that is what the informal plans for fiscal consolidation if we feel that we are not Council will concentrate on. protected. We will continue to work hard to advance our interests. One thing that would have made Britain Mr Cash: Will my hon. Friend give way? weaker was coming home with a treaty change and no safeguards. Alistair Burt: I have only three minutes remaining, If the Opposition want to criticise the Government’s but I will take one further intervention, because my policy, they need to say what they would have done in hon. Friend deserves it; we have discussed these matters office, but last month in the space of 10 days they had on many occasions. three different positions: first they refused to say what they would do, then they said that they would have Mr Cash: Did the Prime Minister agree with Angela vetoed the treaty, and then they said they would not Merkel when she said: have done so. They would have some credibility if they “We will have to get used to the fact that the European had a policy, and a bit of consistency would help. Commission… will become more and more like a government”? This useful debate has concentrated not only on engagement and the like, but on the prospects for next Alistair Burt: Alas, I have not had the opportunity to Monday. The UK has an ambitious agenda for growth test that quote with my right hon. Friend the Prime in Europe, and it is one we share with many like-minded Minister, but I will do so as soon as I have the opportunity. states across Europe. It is also an agenda on which we A number of Members, including the hon. Members have made much progress already throughout the last for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), for Rhondda (Chris year. We will continue to ensure that we put our national Bryant) and for Wolverhampton North East (Emma interests first and to have a policy from a united party in Reynolds) and the right hon. Member for Rotherham relation to the UK interests in Europe. We will continue (Mr MacShane), spoke about engagement in Europe. to look for partners who will share that interest, and at We are engaged. As my hon. Friend the Member for the moment the EU is calling for growth, competitiveness Cheltenham said, the Deputy Prime Minister hosted a and more jobs. meeting of various liberal European Prime Ministers, Commissioners, Deputy Prime Ministers and Foreign 1.48 pm Ministers on 9 January to set out the British vision of One and a half hours having elapsed since the greater competitiveness and growth across the European commencement of proceedings, the motion lapsed (Standing Union, because austerity alone will not fix the eurozone Order No.24). 457 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 458 Review Strategic Defence and Security Review certainly not to fight for their politicians, but to fight for each other—so we must be very careful indeed [Relevant documents: First Report from the Defence before we tamper with that structure. Committee, The Strategic Defence and Security Review, HC 345, and the Government response, HC 638; and We should give thanks, however, to those men and Sixth Report from the Defence Committee, The Strategic women who lay their lives on the line and are prepared Defence and Security Review and the National Security to sacrifice everything they have and everything they are Strategy, HC 761, and the Government response, HC 1639.] in defence of this country. We are incredibly well served. We need to treat those people well, and I shall return to that point later in my speech, although I shall try not to take too long, as there is such pressure on time. 1.48 pm The UK is different, too, because we are prepared to Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): put our people where our rhetoric is: we are prepared I beg to move, to fight when force is needed. In spite of that, we are That this House has considered the matter of progress on seen as a force for good, and in that respect I draw one defence reform and the Strategic Defence and Security Review. comparison with one other country: Germany. Germany I begin by welcoming the Secretary of State to the is doing really valuable work in Afghanistan, and it is first full debate on defence in which he has taken part as led by German politicians often in defiance, almost, of Secretary of State. In the short couple of months in the beliefs and values that, largely at our instigation, which he has been in post, he has really impressed the have grown up in Germany since the second world war. Defence Committee, and me. I have formed an extremely When one goes to Germany and asks, “Why can you high opinion of him as Secretary of State. I am perfectly not contribute more to NATO operations?” one finds well aware that he will be thinking at the moment, “If that they say, “Well, you’ve always been telling us not to only I could say the same of him,” but I hope that fight; you’ve got to make your minds up.” We are during the course of the debate we will get to the gradually getting there, and in Afghanistan we are bottom of some of the issues we face. I also welcome seeing a really valuable contribution. the very fact that we are having the debate, and thank I want, nevertheless, to read out a quotation from the Backbench Business Committee for at last finding a May 2010: day on which we can discuss one of the most important “In my estimation…we—including society as a whole—are issues in the world, and the most important issue of coming to the general understanding that, given this strong focus government. and corresponding dependency on exports, a country of our size needs to be aware that where called for or in an emergency, military deployment, too, is necessary if we are to protect our Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I, too, welcome interests such as ensuring free trade routes or preventing regional the fact that the Backbench Business Committee has instabilities which are also certain to negatively impact our ability found time for this debate, but does my right hon. to safeguard trade, jobs and income. All of this should be discussed and I think the path we are on is not so bad.” Friend not agree that defence should be a matter not for that Committee but for Her Majesty’s Government? That is not an unexceptionable thing to say, but it was This issue should be debated in Government time, not said by the President of Germany in an interview in in Backbench Business Committee time. May 2010, and because of those words he was forced to resign as President. That is a real issue. So Britain is one of the few countries in Europe which is really prepared Mr Arbuthnot: I would hope that this issue could be to put its forces where its rhetoric is, and we should be debated both in Back-Bench time and in Government praised for that. time, because of its central importance, but as the We have a history of involvement with most of the Committee will see, the pressure on speaking opportunities world. At one stage or another we have owned most of this afternoon is heavy, so there is a time limit even it, and many borders over which we now see disputes though there will not be a vote at the end. I hope that are probably our fault. Nevertheless, as a result of those that means that we will have further such debates. historical issues we have, throughout the world, relationships that we need to preserve and that those parts of the Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I world want us to preserve. We also have a history that is accept everything that my right hon. Friend says about borne out of our prosperity, and our armed forces have the pressure on time today, but does he observe that a real role to play in that. very little of that pressure is likely to come from Opposition Owing to all that uniqueness, that difference between Members, among whom there is a desultory turnout for the United Kingdom and others, our alliances and our such an important debate? position in huge alliances, we have huge ambitions to match that history, but what we do not have any more, to match our lofty ambitions, is the resources required Mr Arbuthnot: At the moment the Opposition Benches to back them up. There is a clear contradiction between do look rather empty, but let us hope that things will what the Government said in the strategic defence and change. security review about rejecting the shrinkage of UK I should like to examine what is different about the influence throughout the world, and the reduction of United Kingdom. Our role in the world is unlike that of the money that we spend on the Ministry of Defence any other. The quality of our armed forces is, I believe, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. We may second to none, and that comes mostly from the training well have to reduce the money that we spend on those that they receive, from the structure of the armed forces Departments, but our ambitions should be reduced to and from the fact that they work together in regiments match it. We now spend less on the Foreign Office than and in units to fight, not actually for their country, and on the winter fuel allowance. That is a striking statistic. 459 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 460 Review Review I have no objection to this Government and this The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond) country being committed to hitting the target of spending rose— 0.7% of gross domestic product on international development; I am proud, actually, of that ambition, Mr Arbuthnot: I can quite see my right hon. Friend that aim and that goal, because our role of defending answering, “Well, this is a funny way to go about it,” but our interests extends to, for example, preserving the I will give way to him none the less. stability of countries such as Pakistan and Afghanistan, and our international aid effort is important in that. In Mr Hammond: I am tempted to say that it is even a that respect, however, I ask one brief question: why is grotesque way, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the spirit of my the stabilisation unit being withdrawn from Afghanistan right hon. Friend’s remarks, perhaps I can try to help in 2014? Although I took some time to come around to him. I understand his concern about the voluntary and any agreement with the idea, I fully understand that our compulsory redundancy numbers, but the simple fact is combat troops should be removed from Afghanistan by that we have set out a trajectory of headcount reduction the end of 2014, but the stabilisation unit is precisely the among the civilian employees of the MOD and among reverse of combat troops. The current expectation is the armed forces. At each tranche we have called for that 25% should be withdrawn this year, 25% next year volunteers, and enough volunteers from the civilian and the rest by the end of 2014. The Government population have come forward for no compulsory should reconsider that. redundancies to be required. There has been an insufficient Equally, I have no objection to defence having to bear number of volunteers from the military population so, its brunt of deficit reduction. When, as in the past day regrettably, compulsory redundancies have been required. or two, we hear that our debts are now £1 trillion, we I do not rule out the possibility that compulsory have no choice, and let us remember that the greatest redundancies will be required among the civilian work weapon—the greatest defence—a country can have is a force in future. strong economy. Indeed, we should not object to the fact that defence has to play its part in trying to produce Mr Arbuthnot: My right hon. Friend is, as always, that strong economy, but to pretend that while we helpful. I hope that he will now address the issue on reduce our defence resources we can be as strong in which there is some dispute of fact—whether those in terms of our armed forces as we were before is wrong. the military on whom compulsory redundancy is imposed are allowed to offer themselves for retraining; we have On the Defence Committee’s role, I return to the issue heard variously both that they are and that they are not. of treating the armed forces fairly, touching briefly on That is an important issue. the little local difficulty that was produced by our report this week on the Ministry of Defence’s annual I now turn to the strategic defence and security report and accounts. It is of course regrettable that for review—although I do not want to take too much five years running the MOD’s report and accounts have longer because a large number of people would like to been qualified, and it would be nice to have a true and speak. One of the main aims of the Defence Committee fair view of what it has to spend and what its assets are, is to see how the next strategic defence and security but the point that has obviously hit the headlines is the review, in whatever year it will be—2014, 2015, 2016; we impression of unfairness created by compulsory do not yet know—can be better than the last one. Our redundancies among the armed forces but not among criticisms of the last one included the fact that it was civilian personnel. rushed to fit in with the comprehensive spending review, and was therefore undertaken without sufficient We have asked, therefore, for a compelling and persuasive consultation with academia, industry, Parliament or the reason why the one should be so and the other should country. I heard my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister not. If the answer is, “So many redundancies have been say that taking longer over decisions does not necessarily applied for in the civilian services of the Ministry of make them better, and that is true. But having proper Defence,” perhaps that is because morale in that area is full discussion in the country before such decisions are so low. If that is the answer, it is an issue that my right made would make them more informed. hon. Friend the Secretary of State really needs to address. If the answer is, as the permanent secretary told us, that Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): civilians are flexibly employable whereas the military is Does the Chairman of the Defence Committee agree not, that too is something that the Secretary of State that there was insufficient consultation with our closest needs to address. However, I do not believe that to be allies about the implications of the SDSR? the right answer. I have heard the Secretary of State ask what else we could have done. I am afraid that four Mr Arbuthnot: Yes, I do. Embarrassingly, I was fully reasons for the disparity have now been explained to the consulted by the French Government on the introduction Defence Committee, and without knowing the real reasons of their “livre blanc”, and I felt honoured, but I have no we cannot help to find an answer. We have, at least, impression that the chairmen of the Assemblée Nationale highlighted the issue. or Senate committees were similarly involved in the The relationship between my right hon. Friend and discussion of our strategic defence and security review. me, and the Defence Committee and the Ministry, is not That is one example of how, although Anglo-French cosy—quite right, too; it should not be. But neither co-operation is very good, it could still work a bit should it be a relationship of antagonism and a feeling better. of “They are the enemy”. We do not regard the Ministry There was no sense in the strategic defence and of Defence as the enemy, and we hope that we can move security review of a discussion of what sort of country to a position in which the Ministry does not regard us we wanted to be, and the threats that we were facing, as the enemy. followed by a decision about how we were going to face 461 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 462 Review Review [Mr Arbuthnot] others can make their points as the debate progresses. Given the current circumstances, it is time to consider those threats. Instead, there was a feeling of, “This is the question again. The Government projects a total what we can afford, so these are the threats against cost of £15 billion to £20 billion for the Trident successor which we will defend ourselves,” whatever those threats programme. Independent research has suggested that turn out to be. the total cost would come in at three or four times that For example, we now have six Type 45 destroyers. figure and our past experience with such big defence Why is six the right number? The original number was programmes suggests something similar. going to be 12, then it was cut to eight and then to six. When I was a Defence Minister we used to say that the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con) rose— right number of major ships was about 50. Why is it that now about 19 can defend our interests around the Mr Brown: I remember giving way to the hon. Gentleman globe? However powerful a Type 45 destroyer is, it can the last time I spoke in a debate of this character, back only be in one place at any given time. There is also a in 2007. I bet his intervention is about the same point. concern about a loss of contingent capability. We always get our predictions about the wars that the country will Dr Lewis: Conservative Members are nothing but face wrong, so we must be able to address unpredictable consistent on this issue. I remind the right hon. Gentleman concerns that may arise. that the Polaris fleet and the Trident submarines came However, there are many things to praise in the into service on time and within budget. SDSR. The cyber-strategy, very welcomingly, refocuses the Ministry of Defence, other parts of the Government Mr Brown: The hon. Gentleman presumably hopes and industry on future issues. It is partly to welcome that that will be the case in the future. However, I that that the Defence Committee is doing a series of challenge him to point to any other defence programme inquiries into the cyber-threats that we face. from which he could extrapolate that conclusion. I know Lord Levene’s determined look at reforming the Ministry that he follows these matters with care, but I cannot of Defence is radical. A number of my right hon. and think of another programme. He is right to point out hon. Friends, and other right hon. and hon. Members, the special cases of those procurements in the past, but feel that in some respects his work may be too radical or I am not reassured that they will be repeated in the going in the wrong direction, but the Defence Committee future. In any event, that point is not at the heart of my will look at that issue, too. Bernard Gray’s focus on case. No matter how one looks at it, this is a very large changing defence procurement already looks extremely sum of money to spend. My point is that we should promising; the Defence Committee has always been look carefully at whether we should spend it. extremely impressed when he has appeared in front of The maingate decision on final renewal has been us. pushed back until after the next general election. The I shall end as I began. In the interests of mending cost of that is said to be an additional £1.5 billion to fences, I wish to repeat, with praise, what the Secretary refurbish and prolong the lifespan of the existing fleet. of State said to the Committee in December: Parliamentary answers from Defence Ministers show that upwards of £2 billion has already been spent on “If there is one clear lesson, it is that we have to move away preparatory work for the manufacture of the new from managing this business for cash to managing it for value, and that is the transition process that we are now into.” submarines. As I said at the time, if my right hon. Friend can achieve The Government clearly intend to press ahead with that, he will turn out to have been a great Secretary of Trident renewal. In my opinion, they should seek explicit State. parliamentary authority for doing so. The failure to hold a vote in Parliament on the renewal of our independent Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I remind nuclear deterrent is because of the inability to reconcile hon. Members that there is an eight-minute limit on different views in the coalition. The question that faces speeches. us is whether an independent nuclear deterrent is a good use of such a large sum of public money in the present circumstances. The arguments, which were never 2.7 pm that strong, are now moving away from Trident renewal. Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the Chairman of the Select Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I am listening Committee in this debate. I wholeheartedly identify with great interest. Does the right hon. Gentleman not myself and my constituents with his tribute to our agree that a long-term strategic decision, such as the serving personnel; that issue would never divide us. replacement of our nuclear deterrent, should not be I also want to take up the theme that the right hon. taken in the context of the current short-term economic Gentleman began and place these matters in the context conditions? of the public expenditure circumstances that face our country. But before I do so, I, too, would like to Mr Brown: I will come on to deal with that precise welcome the Secretary of State to his new responsibilities. point. I have no quarrel with the hon. Gentleman for I am pleased that he is here, taking an interest in this making it. Back-Bench debate, and I wish him well in the difficult The current Trident system relies heavily on US logistical, duties that he has in these strained circumstances. capacity, technological and military know-how. It is I want us to look again at the case for Britain’s nearly impossible to imagine any circumstances in which independent nuclear deterrent. I know that that will we would launch a nuclear attack, much less that we probably not be popular on either side of the House; would do so independently of the Americans. Likewise, 463 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 464 Review Review were Britain to be attacked by a nuclear power, the and the difficulty, as we all know, is getting agreement terms of our membership of NATO would require a on what that reform should be. I also think that other joint response by all members, including the US. countries might like us more if we stopped punching above our weight in the world. We might be better Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): thought of by the international community if we settled Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? for being the medium-sized European nation state that we are, rather than the imperial power that we used to be. Mr Brown: I cannot give way because of the rules on these things. We have a choice as a country: do we want to continue to drift into spending billions of pounds on supplementing NATO is a mutual defence pact. It is a fundamental a nuclear capability that we already possess through strength that its armoury includes the nuclear capability NATO or do we want to spend that money on tackling of the US. There has always been a question over why the problems that Britain actually faces in squeezed Britain needs to duplicate NATO’s nuclear capability, economic times? Surely we should resolve this issue now rather than more usefully supplement its conventional with a vote in this Parliament. capacity. When I first entered Parliament in 1983, I resisted 2.16 pm joining the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. I did not support our decision to go ahead with an independent Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): I will not submarine-based system of our own. However, I did respond to the right hon. Member for Newcastle upon support Britain’s membership of NATO, which CND Tyne East (Mr Brown), because I am confident that one did not. At the time, that was regarded in the Labour or two of my hon. Friends will do so. Instead, I will talk party as a very establishment and right-wing position. for a few minutes about defence procurement. It is a small irony of Labour politics that the same Twenty-five years ago, I was responsible for carrying position is today seen as very left-wing. out a survey with three colleagues as a management When the decision was taken to adopt the Trident consultant to compare the procurement systems in seven system in the early 1980s, there was an understanding western powers. It is depressing, a quarter of a century that in exchange for non-proliferation by the non-nuclear on, how little things have moved on from the issues at powers, there would be restraint by the existing nuclear that time. I remain convinced, as I was at the end of that powers, in particular the US and Russia, when it came process, that Britain is about average or a little above to further weapons development and upgrades. That average, and not as inefficient as it is presented to be by idea was enshrined in article VI of the nuclear non- some commentators. proliferation treaty. It can be argued that that has been I share the view of the Chairman of the Defence more honoured in the breach by countries that did not Committee that Bernard Gray is exactly the right man possess a nuclear capability, but that do now. The in the right job and that his report is excellent. I am underlying principle, however, seems to me still to be deeply concerned that much of Lord Levene’s report sound. will undermine some of Bernard Gray’s best and most The large financial outlay that the Government are important ideas, much as I respect the noble Lord and committed to in planning to replace our independent the work that he did in procurement at about the time I deterrent could be better spent in a number of ways. was a consultant. During the economic boom, I argued that we ought to There is time to touch briefly on only four points, of better equip our troops, invest in the specialist field of which two relate to the procurement function and two anti-terrorism capability in line with the real threats to the Ministry of Defence. My first point is that that we face, and supplement our existing overseas aid Bernard Gray is absolutely right to point to weaknesses budget. We now face new threats. To take one example, in the contract staff, who are grossly underqualified for the money that we spend on Trident could be used to the job of stacking up against the highly competent bring down substantially the tuition fees of every student. lawyers employed by the other side. In project after I think that cutting a generation adrift from higher project, we have found ourselves badly damaged by the education poses a bigger threat to our nation than the small print. idea that a foreign power with nuclear weaponry would My second point is about project managers. Gray, uniquely threaten to use it against us, and not the rest of Levene and everybody else who has looked at this NATO, and would somehow be able to disapply NATO’s matter have concluded that we need more continuity in founding terms. The real nuclear dangers of the future project managers and that they need to be professionally come from rogue states and terrorism. The possession trained. Nevertheless, we are out of line with most of an independent nuclear deterrent does not make us other countries in concluding that project managers safer. A better investment would be in anti-terrorism should be civilians. The most efficient procurers in the capabilities. world remain, in my view, the Swedes. Their project Three main arguments are put forward by proponents managers are overwhelmingly military. They are in post of Trident replacement. The first is that it is the best typically for four to five years and they are properly weapon that money can buy. The second is that it trained before they become project managers. The problem, guarantees a seat on the United Nations Security Council. particularly on the army side where there are large The final argument is that it contributes to our ability to numbers of comparatively cheap interlocking projects, punch above our weight in the world. I argue that it is is that if civilians are in charge of the projects, as in not much of a weapon if the circumstances in which it France, one ends up with lots of detailed user-problems may be used cannot be envisaged. Fundamental reform that would have become obvious earlier if they had of the United Nations Security Council is long overdue been before a military project manager. That is why 465 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 466 Review Review [Mr Julian Brazier] anyway. A strong central capabilities directorate would probably have been able to get a grip on that. Furthermore, France, despite spending far more on research and the problem is as much in the detail as in the big picture. development than any other continental country, does That brings me to my fourth and last point, which not have a particularly good record on land vehicles. was anticipated by my hon. Friend the Member for My third point goes more to the heart of the Beckenham (Bob Stewart). Some countries, particularly distinction—in my mind, anyway—between Levene and on the continent, do not allow executives on to their Gray. The heart of Gray’s report—perhaps his single company boards; we would say that their company most important recommendation—is at point 4 in his boards are all non-executive. Putting those countries to summary, where he says that we must one side, in all my years as a consultant—I worked on “Clarify roles and create a real customer-supplier relationship all six continents—I never came across a successful between the capability sponsor (MoD centre)”— company anywhere in which the heads of the main —this is a distinction that we, alone in the whole world, operating divisions were not on the main board. Peter developed before the second world war— Levene’s recommendation that the individual chiefs of staff should not sit on the Defence Board is bizarre. If “and project delivery (DE&S)”. one puts that alongside my third point about capabilities, He goes on to stress that the Deputy Chief of the with the greater powers that the individual services are Defence Staff (Capability) is the man who has to drive going to take back from the centre to monitor projects, this. In contrast, Peter Levene suggests that DCDS one can see that it is a recipe for increased in-fighting (Capability) should be merged with one, or possibly and for a reduction in interoperability. That is a big step two, other functions out of a long list—that it should be away from joined-up defence. downgraded—instead of having, as Gray recommends, I should like to end on a more positive note. With one board whose secretariat and day-to-day policing Bernard Gray, who is probably the best informed and should be provided by DCDS (Capability) to oversee best equipped man in the country, being put in charge the process. In Levene’s structure we would end up with of procurement, there is a fair chance that he will a complete muddle, with, in effect, four different bodies manage to overcome many of these problems. Certainly, considering these matters—the new Defence Board, under his leadership the performance of the procurement which is all-civilian except for the Chief of the Defence function itself will move from being a little above average Staff, and the three armed forces themselves. That would internationally to being among the best. However, if we take us halfway back to pre-1936. simply implement at the centre the Levene reforms as they are constituted—I have mentioned two of the Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): If the move is to weaknesses, and I could go into some of the others in make the CDS the commander-in-chief, and therefore detail—there is a risk that, in this area and in several in charge of the Army, with the same going for the other others, we may undermine long-term defence planning. two services, surely it is proper that such people are represented on the Defence Board, if not particularly 2.25 pm within the Ministry of Defence? Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I fear that the strategic defence and security review was a cost-cutting Mr Brazier: I thoroughly agree with my hon. Friend. exercise rather than an exercise that focused particularly I was about to come to that as my fourth and final on the defence needs of this country. As those who point, but let me first finish my remarks on capabilities. know me are aware, I have a particular worry about There is a very important reason, which Bernard maritime patrol capability. Gray fingers exactly in his original report, for having a Following the decision to scrap the Nimrod MRA4, proper supplier-customer relationship. In the second we have been left with no maritime patrol capability. world war, the Luftwaffe had a much more powerful The £6 billion Nimrod fleet is now ancient history and research and development and industrial base, but the resting in a scrap yard somewhere. I do not want to RAF, because it had a separate capabilities group, was spend any time discussing that again, but I want to able to make sure that all the pieces interacted so that consider where we stand without the capability that it we did not have problems with fighters that could not would have provided. The former Secretary of State for talk to bombers, and so on. Defence, the right hon. Member for North Somerset The A300M is a modern example of where that (Dr Fox), summed up the problem in his infamous letter structure has broken down because—Gray criticises to the Prime Minister: this—the capabilities staff have got weaker, and they “Deletion of the Nimrod MR4 will limit our ability to deploy will get a lot weaker still if the Levene recommendations maritime forces rapidly into high-threat areas, increase the risk to are adopted. This aircraft is being bought for the Air the Deterrent, compromise maritime CT (counter terrorism), Force—I have huge respect for Air Transport Command remove long range search and rescue, and delete one element of because of the brilliant work it has done in Afghanistan— our Falklands reinforcement plan.” but the user is the Army. Bizarrely, we have managed to I want to examine each aspect of that assertion—first, arrive at a point where we are choosing to buy an the rapid deployment of the maritime forces into high-threat aeroplane that is much more expensive than its tried areas. The maritime patrol aircraft is there to protect and tested competitor, the Hercules, on the grounds our nuclear deterrent. In mid-December, The Scotsman that it can carry one armoured vehicle per aircraft reported that a Type 42 destroyer had to be dispatched whereas the Hercules cannot. If asked, the Army would when a Royal Navy battle group appeared off the coast say that armoured vehicles usually go by sea—it has of Scotland. [HON.MEMBERS: “Russian navy battle group”] C17s if it has to move them by air—and that it could I am sorry—I meant a Russian navy battle group. Did I not afford most of the armoured vehicles it wanted say “Royal Navy”? That is a real Freudian slip—I do 467 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 468 Review Review apologise. Clearly, my meetings with Alex Salmond trade a year passes through the Suez canal, and piracy have left things in my brain that I should not have costs the international economy between $4 billion and brought forward. A Russian navy battle group appeared $7 billion a year. Those figures are being passed on to off the coast of Scotland, as have a number of Russian taxpayers through the rising cost of the goods transported submarines. In addition, Russia is building a new fleet through the region. of submarines. In the past a Nimrod would have been There are huge problems with the proposal to post dispatched to keep a watchful, discreet eye. Instead, we armed guards on merchant ships. I have particular sent a Type 42 destroyer. Without the MPA, we do not concerns about the rules that would be needed to govern know who is out there or what risks we face. the licensing of firearms on UK-flagged vessels, and Scotland is a part of what we should consider our about what would happen to the pirates who were back door—the high north. We spend very little time captured. Kenya is no longer willing to help. How will focusing on that region, but we ignore it at our peril. We pirates be transported to third countries for trial, and tend to forget that we are a northern European country, what will the legal position be of both the pirates and and that the high north is growing in significance. the maritime security company that transports them Without a comprehensive maritime patrol capability, there? Are we in danger of giving rise to the issue of we cannot address the strategic and economic importance rendition? of the high north. As the ice melts in the Arctic ocean, I turn to our long-term search and rescue obligations. the 160 billion barrels of oil that are assessed as being in In 2010 our Nimrods were called out between 30 and 40 that region are becoming more accessible. No one dreamed times to assist with search and rescue. We have an of those sea routes being opened up, or of the 40-day international responsibility for search and rescue covering saving on travel made possible by the Suez canal being 1.2 million nautical miles, but in a collection of letters available for our shipping lanes. Without the MPA, we in The Daily Telegraph in 2010, one writer said: cannot keep an eye on those shipping lanes to watch for “I advise mariners to avoid requiring rescue more than 250 military deployments or respond to any disasters, whether miles from shore.” they are environmental, security-related or human. Without a maritime patrol capability, our capacity to Mr Arbuthnot: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for rescue our seafarers is removed. giving way and particularly for the extraordinarily good I wish briefly to consider the Falklands. I remind the work that she does on the Defence Committee, including House that when the invasion started on 31 March in drawing our attention to issues such as the high 1982, a Nimrod arrived at Ascension island on 6 April. north. In the comments that she just made, was she also A battle group of Harriers did not arrive until 1 May. making a comment about some of the possible implications That maritime patrol capability gives us the flexibility of Scottish independence? that we need, and it is a matter of great urgency that the House is advised on when it will be restored. Mrs Moon: It is vital that the House addresses the issue of defence in relation to Scottish independence. I hope that, with the Chairman’s agreement, the Defence 2.34 pm Committee will include it in our future programme. It is The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): a matter of grave importance to the security and defence Let me begin by paying tribute to Signaller Ian Sartorius- of the United Kingdom, and we should take it extremely Jones of 20th Armoured Brigade Headquarters and seriously. Signal Squadron, who died on operations in Afghanistan I turn to maritime counter-terrorism. On a visit to on 24 January. Our thoughts at this difficult time are Northwood, information was given to me that having with his family and friends. All of us in this House are one Nimrod, a maritime patrol aircraft, was the equivalent acutely conscious of the sacrifices being made in to having 12 ships. We have only 19 ships, and we no Afghanistan on a daily basis by the men and women of longer have MPA capability. We have the increasing our armed forces. The experience of my first 100 days as problem of countering piracy, which is a form of criminal Secretary of State for Defence has only reinforced my maritime terrorism. Naval command said last year that admiration for their selflessness, dedication and bravery, 83 warships were needed to ensure a one-hour response as well as for the commitment and professionalism of time to merchant ships attacked in the high-risk area, the civilians who support them. They are rightly a yet in October only 18 vessels were deployed. The area source of great pride to the nation. of risk is huge—2.5 million square miles—and over the I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for next 20 years, the volume of trade going by sea will North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) on securing increase by 50% and Navy cover will drop by 30%. this debate on behalf of the Select Committee on Defence, Tracking rogue ships over such a wide area needs maritime and on his speech, most of which I wholeheartedly patrol capability, which we do not have. agreed with. I am delighted to have the opportunity to Counter-piracy operations conducted through NATO address the House on the defence reform programme and through EU NAVFOR—Naval Force Somalia—rely that I have inherited, on my approach to it, and on how on the resources provided by members. The availability I will take forward the delivery of the defence outputs of MPA fluctuates according to demands elsewhere, required under the strategic defence and security review. and operations in Libya meant that those limited resources were diverted. We face increasing numbers of attacks in Mr Gray: Does my right hon. Friend remember— the Indian ocean, the strait of Hormuz and now off the perhaps he would do so nostalgically—the days when west coast of Africa. we had at least three debates annually on defence on a Our reliance on the sea is enormous. In 2010, 35% of Government motion in Government time? Does he our total natural gas imports arrived by sea. By 2020, agree that this should be a Government debate rather 70% will be imported in that way. Some $952 billion of than a Back-Bench one? 469 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 470 Review Review Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend will know that the projects announced by politicians—actually, mainly one Government took a decision to give a large slug of politician—without any budget cover or prospect of parliamentary time to the Backbench Business Committee, ever being delivered, in a programme that had no proper to be allocated according to the priorities that Back contingency, no effective recognition of risk, and no Benchers identify. That was a bold decision for a provision for the “conspiracy of optimism” that was Government to take. The result is that we have that evident in MOD equipment cost estimates. The support defence debate today. I hope the Committee notes, as programme systematically underprovided for the proper my right hon. Friend the Member for North East maintenance and sustainment of the equipment that Hampshire said, the strong attendance, and that that was already in service. In short, Mr Deputy Speaker, it will mean we have more defence debates on Thursday was a shambles. afternoons in future. I am delighted also to have the opportunity to address Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Will the Secretary the House—I have said that once so I will not say it of State give way? again. Mr Hammond: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): It was who will perhaps explain his way out of that. pretty good. Hugh Bayley: Were the capital programmes that the Mr Hammond: I agree. right hon. Gentleman’s Government inherited supported Today’s debate is about the reform of defence. That or opposed by the chiefs of staff at the time? reform is for a purpose. Sometimes, amid the minutiae of budgets and organisational structures, we need to Mr Hammond: I am obviously not privy to the advice take care not to lose sight of that purpose: the defence given to Ministers in the previous Government by their of this nation and our dependent territories against defence advisers, nor should I be, but if the previous those who threaten our security and our national interest. Government were succumbing to recommendations from the defence chiefs, they were doing them no favours by The challenge we face is to deliver that defence on a pretending that they could deliver equipment programmes sustainable basis within a resource envelope that the for which there were no funding lines or budget cover, country can afford. That challenge must be set in the and when there was no prospect of their materialising. context of the fiscal and economic circumstances, as other Members have noted. History tells us that, without a strong economy and sound public finances, it is impossible John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op) to sustain in the long term the military capability required rose— to project power and maintain defence. The debt crisis is therefore a strategic threat to the future security of Mr Hammond: I am going to make some progress. our nation and to the security of the west. Restoring Does it matter that Labour’s programme was stuffed sound public finances is a defence imperative as well as full of projects that would never and could never be an economic one, and defence must make its contribution delivered? I would argue that it did, because so long as to delivering them. the fantasy persisted, the doctrine and philosophy of our armed forces—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): for North Durham (Mr Jones) listens, he might understand Does the Secretary of State agree that, in times of the point being made. So long as the fantasy persisted, economic austerity, it is important that we develop the doctrine and philosophy of our armed forces were collaboration with our NATO allies to enhance capabilities, built around the notion of those platforms being delivered, so that we can engage with allies to combat some of the when what the forces really need is a realistic programme threats that we face? that we can deliver and that they can have confidence in, so that they can start rethinking their doctrine and Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. operating philosophy for the future around the platforms Part of the answer to the questions raised by the hon. and capabilities that we will have. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) is collaboration with NATO allies. They can share assets that they have John Woodcock: To aid this debate, could the Secretary and that we do not have, and we can reinforce their of State just remind the House whether his party in capabilities in other areas. The smart defence agenda is opposition argued for a smaller or larger Army than the an important one—it involves collaboration among NATO then Government were prepared to support? allies in procurement to ensure that we get the best defence effect we can get with the limited budgets Mr Hammond: What I say to the hon. Gentleman is available. that we face the situation that we face. We came into As I have said, defence must make its contribution to office with a massive deficit, which we inherited from delivering sound public finances, so even if the defence the previous Government, and as I shall argue, we have programme that we inherited had been in good shape, taken the tough decisions that, frankly, the previous the spending review and the SDSR would have had to Government shirked over the last few years, thereby find savings to contribute to overall deficit reduction. doing the armed forces and the country no favours. However, the defence programme that the Government By 2010, Britain’s armed forces had endured a decade inherited was very far from being in good shape. At its of high-tempo operations without a formal defence heart, it had a £38 billion black hole filled with procurement review and were faced with a period of acute fiscal projects that were at best hopelessly over budget and pressure. The case for reform to ensure that the armed out of control, and at worst pure fantasy. They were forces were restructured and re-equipped to protect our 471 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 472 Review Review national security against the threats that we would face, thing in the long-term national interest. Translating the within a budget that the nation could sustain, was strategic prescriptions of the SDSR into decisive actions unanswerable. Tough decisions were necessary to deal was always going to be a process rather than an event. with problems on the scale of the inherited defence Turning the corner on a decade of mismanagement will deficit, and this Government took them. I am clear, as take time and determination. the Prime Minister and my predecessor have been, that To shine a bit of light into the end of the tunnel, the whatever the pain, our first duty is to put our armed Government announced in July 2011 that the MOD forces on a sustainable basis by restructuring them for could plan on the budget allocated to defence equipment the future and putting the budgets that sustain them on and equipment support increasing by 1% a year in real a stable footing. As the SDSR acknowledged, the process terms between 2015 and 2020. That amounts to more of transitioning to Future Force 2020 will require us to than £3 billion of new money over the period. Importantly, take some calculated and carefully managed risks against that commitment was renewed by the Chief Secretary certain capabilities, most prominent among which are to the Treasury after the autumn statement. That will wide-area maritime surveillance, to which the hon. Member enable investment in a number of programmes, including for Bridgend referred, and carrier strike. the procurement of new Chinook helicopters, the I regret in particular the cuts in personnel that are refurbishment of the Army’s Warrior fleet, the procurement required to deliver that rebalancing and make the armed of the Rivet Joint, or Airseeker, intelligence and surveillance forces sustainable. However, in case any confusion has aircraft, and the development of the global combat been created over the last few days, let me clear up one ship. point. The headcount of military personnel will have The MOD is currently undertaking its annual budget been reduced by around 18% by 2020 compared with setting process, which is known as the planning round. I the 2010 baseline. That is in contrast to a 38% reduction am personally engaged in that process, and I am increasingly in civilian headcount. Regrettably, some of that reduction confident that we are close to achieving a sustainable will have to be achieved by redundancy. Where that is and balanced defence budget for the first time in a necessary, every opportunity is being given, and will decade or more. That would be an immense achievement, continue to be given, for military personnel at risk of and would allow us to plan with confidence and to redundancy to retrain for alternative roles of which spend well over £150 billion on new equipment and there are shortages in the armed forces. equipment support over the next decade, as well as I heard the comments of my right hon. Friend the delivering the force restructuring and rebasing that we Member for North East Hampshire earlier. Following have announced. A turnaround on that scale requires a the publication of the Select Committee’s report, I have major cultural shift. Defence must change the way in asked for a specific briefing on the point that he raised. I which it does things and the way in which it addresses would be happy to share that with him after the debate— problems. It must challenge the received wisdom around [Interruption.] I will share it with the right hon. Member the doctrines used to deliver defence tasks and around for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) as well, if he wishes. the management of defence itself. It includes a list of the shortage trades for which suitably Last month, the Government published the first annual qualified individuals who are facing redundancy are report on the SDSR, which set out in full the progress invited to apply. that is being made. Let me address a couple of salient areas of what the MOD calls “transforming defence”—that Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): The is, the journey from the mess that we inherited towards large number of redundancies in the Gurkhas has inevitably achieving a sustainable, capable, coherent and adaptable caused concern among them and in my constituency. force, built on balanced budgets and disciplined processes, Will the Secretary of State give me a commitment that by 2020. As I have said, I am clear that the Ministry of the Gurkhas will remain a unique and important part Defence must balance its budget. I am equally clear that of the British armed forces? it does not exist to balance its budget; it exists to deliver effective defence within a sustainable budget envelope. Mr Hammond: The Gurkhas remain a very important part of the British armed forces. I think that my hon. Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Will the Secretary Friend understands exactly the problem that we face in of State give way? regard to Gurkha numbers. Their terms of service were changed as a result of decisions made by the courts and Mr Hammond: I cannot resist taking one last the campaigning pressure that was placed on the previous intervention. Government. That means that most Gurkhas have elected to extend their service to 22 years. Consequently, the Sir Bob Russell: Will the Secretary of State accept numbers of Gurkhas in service are projected to be that morale is very important, and if our soldiers, above the levels needed to sustain the two brigades that sailors and air personnel and their families are given we wish to sustain. That has given rise to a larger accommodation that is not fit for purpose, that does number of Gurkha redundancies than we would have nothing to help the Government’s objectives? expected to see. That is regrettable but, I am afraid, inevitable. Mr Hammond: I reassure my hon. Friend that I We are making tough decisions to tackle the massive absolutely agree that morale is very important. I shall deficit left by the previous Government and the unfunded come to morale in a moment, and I understand that defence programme. If those decisions had been easy or accommodation plays an important part in that. He popular, you can bet your life that the Labour Government will understand that there are thousands of moving would have taken them years ago. They did not do so, parts in the defence budget, and trying to bring them however, and it now falls to the coalition to do the right back into balance is a massive challenge. Inevitably, 473 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 474 Review Review [Mr Philip Hammond] establishment of the major projects review board to hold those responsible for failing projects firmly to people will always ask us to do more, more quickly, account. whether on accommodation, front-line equipment or This year will see the transformation accelerate, with any other area. We must try to balance the equation and an evolution towards a leaner, more strategic head get the judgment right. office; the introduction of a stronger financial and As I said, the Ministry of Defence exists to deliver an performance management regime across the whole effective solution within a sustainable budget envelope. Department; the service chiefs being empowered to run NATO membership and our defence relationship with their individual services and their delegated services the United States and other key allies, such as France budgets; the new joint forces command being stood up and Australia, are a vital part of the strategic solution on 1 April; and the start of the reform of the MOD’s as we move to Future Force 2020. It will, of course, be a defence equipment and support business on the basis of smaller force, but it will be equipped with some of the a new matériel strategy. best and most advanced technology in the world. It will The next few years will also see the beginning of be configured to be agile, focused on expeditionary considerable change on the ground as the rebasing capability and carrier strike, able to intervene by airborne programme set out in July last year is taken forward and or amphibious assault, and with the ability to deploy, the Army begins its return from Germany, as well as its with sufficient warning and for a limited time, a whole-effort withdrawal from Afghanistan and its internal restructuring force of about 30,000, or to maintain an enduring to deliver five multi-role brigades. I know those last stabilisation operation at brigade level while concurrently changes, in particular, are of great interest to individual undertaking one complex and one small-scale non-enduring Members. The House will understand that many of the operation. It will be a formidable regular force, supported changes are interdependent and complex, but I can give by better trained, better equipped reserves who will play a commitment that I will make further announcements a greater role in delivering defence effect on the back of on the details of individual elements of the transforming the extra £1.8 billion that we will invest in them over the defence programme as and when it is appropriate to do next 10 years. All that will be underpinned by the so. expectation that, in most circumstances, we will be fighting alongside allies, and it will be supported with Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Will doctrines that will effectively address the threats of the my right hon. Friend give way? future with the assets that we will have. The proposal is about finally moving on from cold Mr Hammond: I thought that might provoke my right war reliance on mass to the “lethal and light” doctrines hon. and learned Friend. of flexibility and agility that the challenges of the new century require. It is not just the armed forces that need Sir Menzies Campbell: First, I should apologise for to reconfigure; the management of defence needs to being unable to be present at the beginning of the change too, by developing a laser focus on delivering debate due to other responsibilities. defence cost- effectively and accountably, protecting the My right hon. Friend is right to say that the basing front line and the taxpayer at the same time. Under my decisions have caused a great deal of disappointment. predecessor, that transformation had already begun. In the case of my constituency, the closure of RAF The recommendations of the Defence Reform Unit Leuchars, which has provided nearly 100 years of service under Lord Levene were broadly accepted. Many have in aerial warfare, has been particularly difficult to accept. been implemented and others are in the pipeline. The Part of the argument in favour of that closure was that Defence Board has been reconfigured to provide for a there would be specific deployments of units of the clear, single, joint service voice on military priorities, Army to occupy the base. So far, very little detail has and a greater role for non-executive directors under the been made available. May I encourage my right hon. chairmanship of the Secretary of State. I reassure my Friend to ensure that the announcements he has just hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) foreshadowed will be made as soon as possible? that the single voice for the military on the Defence Board is supported by an effective armed forces committee, Mr Hammond: I can reassure my right hon. and at which the chiefs of the individual services are able to learned Friend on that point. RAF Leuchars is not so work together to determine their combined order of much closing as transforming its role to become the priorities for the Defence Board’s allocation of available home of one of the five multi-role combat brigades resource. That priority order is then presented to the after the rebasing of the Army back to the UK. Defence Board by the Chief of the Defence Staff—a The purpose of all the changes is to increase the presentation that has become extremely effective, because investment we can make in service people and their it carries with it the authority of all three services and equipment and training, to increase investment in the the joint forces commander. front line by making the back office more efficient and The Defence Infrastructure Organisation has been more accountable, and to deliver value for money in stood up to rationalise the Ministry of Defence estate defence. I know that change is unsettling and that the and reduce costs by 25%. Defence Business Services has threat of change and the uncertainty it brings can sap been created to unify human resources and other back-office morale, which my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester functions across the Department. The reform of the (Sir Bob Russell) mentioned. I will make every effort to procurement process has begun with the appointment ensure that the people who are directly affected by the of—you guessed it, Mr Deputy Speaker—Bernard Gray, proposals are kept fully informed as they progress and who has now had four name checks, I think, so far that we get the changes made as quickly as humanly in the debate, as chief of defence matériel, and the possible. 475 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 476 Review Review Mr Gray: Will my right hon. Friend give way before We continue to support strongly the mission in he moves on? Afghanistan because we are entering a difficult phase in that conflict. With 33,000 US troops and 500 UK Mr Hammond: I will not give way to my hon. Friend troops departing this year, and with the pace of further a second time, as I am conscious that a large number withdrawal yet to be set, the capacity of Afghan forces people wish to participate in the debate. is a crucial issue. There are worrying signs in terms of People remain the greatest asset of defence and, retention rates and recent high-profile infiltrations despite the tough decisions that must be taken, we will of those forces. Building the strength and the legitimacy do all we can to protect them. This Government understand of the Afghan national army and police force must be a our duty to the country and to our armed forces. We priority for this year alongside the delivery of representative, have made the tough choices necessary to put them on a stable local governance and the continued engagement sustainable footing for the defence of national security of regional partners. Labour will continue to support and of the United Kingdom’s interests around the and scrutinise the Government, as well as pressing for world. We know that making those changes will not to the pace of withdrawal to follow the conditions on be easy, but I have no doubt that the British armed the ground. It is vital that we have clarity as soon as forces that will emerge will be formidable, flexible and possible on the size of any residual UK force in Afghanistan adaptable, supported by the fourth largest defence budget and on its responsibilities. in the world, meeting our NATO responsibilities and Afghanistan sits alongside many new and emerging equipped with some of the best and most advanced threats faced by the UK and our allies. Events in north technology on earth. Africa and the middle east continue to prove this. The To get there, we need not just the series of structural potential for conflict between states or among peoples and organisational changes I have set out, but a cultural is on the rise. shift in the way the organisation thinks and works. We Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con) rose— need a shift in military doctrine to deliver the defence effect we will need, using the capabilities we will have; a Mr Murphy: I anticipated that the hon. Gentleman shift in civilian culture to one of discipline, individual would seek to catch my eye and I will gladly give way. accountability and delegated decision making; and a shift to a leaner, fitter, more empowered and more Rory Stewart: Will the shadow Minister please explain empowering organisation. This is a programme of renewal what he proposes to do to achieve a stable, effective and change of a scope and on a scale greater than Government in Afghanistan that has not already been anything else being delivered across the public sector. It proposed by the Government? is a blueprint for a sustainable future for the UK’s Mr Murphy: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will armed forces as one of the world’s most capable fighting appreciate that I said right at the beginning that I am machines. That is what Britain needs and what our keen to have a bipartisan approach in Afghanistan, and armed forces deserve, and as we move forward to deliver that will continue. There is sometimes a temptation with it we will never forget that at the heart of this organisation these very difficult, often impractical, problems to give are the servicemen and women who are prepared to put in to the temptation to seek and find synthetic differences, their lives on the line for us day in, day out. We owe it to but as I have said before at the Dispatch Box it is them to make sure that the transformation we have important that this year there should be a genuine embarked upon delivers its full promise. political process to match the military might of the past decade. That did not happen last year, and it should be 3pm compulsory this year. The Bonn conference was a failure in that regard, but I did not attack our Government for Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): I welcome that from the Dispatch Box because it was an international the opportunity to speak in this annual debate. failure to formulate the political strategy that that country The debate was initiated by the Select Committee on so badly needs. Defence and facilitated by the Backbench Business Committee, but I hope that in future the time allocated Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I will be additional to that allocated by the Government appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman was not in to such debates. post during the relevant period, but does he regret not I congratulate the Chair of the Defence Committee, conducting a defence review in the past decade? A the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire review might have helped to identify the fact that Snatch (Mr Arbuthnot), on his very thoughtful speech. Even Land Rovers were not appropriate in Afghanistan. We though parts of it criticised the Government of whom I went through a period of bizarre procurement in which was a member, his assessment was often fair. Parts of the Ridgback, the Cougar, the Vector, the Jackal and his speech, however, were in stark contrast with the the Mastiff were produced one after another and bought opening passages of the Secretary of State’s partisan off the shelf to try to identify something that would comments. work in Afghanistan. If we had held a defence review, perhaps we would have seen that the conduct and style It is right that we remember the names of those of war was changing before our eyes and we could then serving in our name across the world and those, such as have ensured that we sent our armed forces to Afghanistan Ian Sartorius-Jones, who have lost their life serving our with the right equipment. nation, particularly in Afghanistan, which must remain our country’s principal defence mission. The bravery of Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman has great and the UK’s servicemen and women is in all our thoughts varied experience, but I think he will fairly accept that and many of our prayers. Their actions overseas make the urgent operational requirements worked well in our country safer and we thank them and their families. Afghanistan, and after 9/11 we updated our defence 477 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 478 Review Review [Mr Jim Murphy] our forces and the civil service. There are new unfunded liabilities on the balance sheet and further cuts to the review with a new chapter. In a debate that is intended equipment programme appear imminent. The conflict to be relatively thoughtful rather than our traditional in Libya saw military equipment planned for the scrapyard cut and thrust, it is fair to say that the nature of the recalled. The UK has been left with serious capability conflict in Afghanistan changed and surprised many shortfalls for a decade, most notably the carrier strike people, including those who were engaged in it day to capability gap. Military experts have repeatedly been day. As we reflect on what happened in Afghanistan, it open in their criticisms, and all in all it is a cuts package is crucial that we learn deeply the lessons of the conflict, still in search of a defence strategy and there should be in the hope that we never have to deploy them, but in a rethink. the fear that on occasion it might become necessary. On forces welfare, I welcome much of what the I was making the wider point that events in north Secretary of State has said in the announcements that Africa and the middle east continue to prove the uncertainty he has made in advancement of forces welfare, but last and unpredictability of the future shape of conflict. week saw 400 Gurkhas being made redundant—the Coupled with the Arab spring, the growing global second painful cut they have had to endure in just a few population, the threat of climate change, new information months. The whole House will recall that the Prime technology and biotechnologies, nuclear proliferation Minister championed those remarkable soldiers in and cyber-attack, we live in what is, by consensus, an opposition, and many will agree with the Defence era of dramatic new global security challenges. All that Committee’s statement that the level of compulsory means that it is sensible for the Government to invest redundancies among those in uniform is “grotesque.” the £650 million they have announced for cyber-security. That comes alongside cuts to front-line allowances, and The continuing emphasis on soft power and multilateralism permanent changes to pensions that will disproportionately to supplant the inevitable capability shortfalls resulting affect members of the armed forces and their dependants, from spending constraint is vital. It was crucial in good who rely on their pensions at an earlier stage in life than times, but it is compulsory in these difficult times of almost anyone else. budget cuts in a world of flux. Mr Philip Hammond rose— Dr Murrison: The shadow Chancellor is on record saying that he accepts all the Government’s spending Mr Murphy: I will happily give way, because I anticipate cuts. However, the shadow Defence Secretary says that that the right hon. Gentleman’s fidgeting— he thinks only £5 billion-worth of cuts in defence are necessary. Who is correct? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. One standing up, one sitting down, not two standing at once. Mr Murphy: I have learned from experience that it would never be wise to misrepresent the words of the Mr Hammond: I am sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. The shadow Chancellor, and I dare say the hon. Gentleman right hon. Gentleman says he is giving way, then stays is doing just that. We have been pretty clear; we cannot standing up for another three sentences. I am confused. commit to reverse specific cuts that the Government He says the redundancies in the armed forces are grotesque, have made. Similarly, before the 1997 election we said but he says he will not reverse the spending cuts that the we would stick to the size of the state for the first two Government have announced. Which is it? Is he going years of a Labour Government. It is important to be to reverse the cuts or is he going to accept the redundancies? clear: before that election, we committed not to reverse individual spending cuts. Mr Murphy: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I On defence reform, we know that we must meet the am echoing the assessment and the assertion of the ambitions for our forces that we share across the Chamber, all-party Select Committee, and now that the right hon. and which the Secretary of State referred to at the end Gentleman and his friends have sacked those soldiers, of his comments. Reform is more important than ever we cannot re-employ them. That is very clear indeed. before and when the Government make the right choices, they will have our backing. I listened carefully to the Mr Hammond: The right hon. Gentleman is not hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who spoke going to wriggle out by putting it in an historical with real passion about an important issue that can context. A tranche of military redundancy is going on often be quite dry. Much of the restructuring of the right now, and regrettably there will have to be further MOD announced in the Levene report was as welcome tranches. Would he scrap them and, if so, where would on the Opposition Benches as it was, in the majority of he get the money from? cases, on the Government Benches, in particular, greater financial powers for service chiefs. Some of the rebalancing Mr Murphy: It is ironic and peculiar that the current of the equipment programme, notably cutting tank Secretary of State is seeking a commitment from the regiments, was necessary and has our support. official Opposition to reverse cuts that he has not even Unfortunately, that is not the case for every decision yet announced. It is a ludicrous way to conduct politics taken in the Government’s controversial and much criticised and economics. defence review, which has set our country’s defence This cut comes alongside cuts to front-line allowances, policy on an uncertain path. However much some try to and permanent changes to pensions, which will depict the process as a success, the evidence to the detrimentally affect those who require to take their contrary is striking. The strategic defence and security pensions earlier in life. A corporal who has lost both review was immediately reviewed in a three-month study legs in a bomb blast in Afghanistan will miss out on that announced thousands of further redundancies in £500,000 in pension and benefit-related pensions. War 479 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 480 Review Review widows will also lose out enormously. A 34-year-old Sir Menzies Campbell: The right hon. Gentleman has wife of a staff sergeant killed in Afghanistan would be spoken at some length and with some eloquence about almost £750,000 worse off throughout her life. the uncertainties that the face defence of the UK, but Ministers blame deficit reduction but the argument has he considered the uncertainties that would face the does not add up. These changes are permanent, so the defence of the UK were there to be an independent impact will be felt long after the deficit has been paid Scotland—not least for Scotland, but for all the rest of down and the economy has returned to growth. the United Kingdom? Our reputation and our capability are well recognised; how far does he think these would I believe it is uncomfortable for us all that Sir Michael be capable of being sustained in the event that there was Moore, the chairman of the Forces Pension Society, has an independent Scotland? been moved to say: “I have never seen a Government erode the morale of the Mr Murphy: The right hon. and learned Gentleman Armed Forces so quickly”. makes a compelling argument. I look forward to being What has been the Prime Minister’s response? It has part of the discussion during the referendum campaign. been a Cabinet Sub-Committee of his Ministers. To I have only two more points to make: the first is about those in the front line, that will be little consolation. finance but the other is about Scotland, which will Indeed, given some of the decisions that have been allow me to respond to that intervention in more detail. taken, they are likely to want less, not more ministerial The Secretary of State mentioned the £38 billion meetings. As I have previously said, I think there is a figure, but that is Ministers’ response to every single case for fewer Ministers in the Ministry of Defence in issue. They use a catch-all Conservative assertion as a and of itself. fact and so attempt to escape their responsibility, but in As the Secretary of State has rightly said, UK armed its report on the SDSR the Defence Committee stated: forces are a “force for good” across the globe, bringing “We were disappointed by the MoD’s response to our requests peace to the Balkans, promoting stability in Sierra for a breakdown of the MoD’s financial commitments, including details of the components of its estimate of a £38 billion gap in Leone, building capacity across Africa, supporting the the defence programme”. actions around Libya, the normalisation of Northern Ireland and counter-terrorism at home and overseas, When the previous Secretary of State gave evidence to including in Iraq and Afghanistan. We want our forces the Committee, he was asked to provide that information, to continue to play such a world-leading role, but their but it has still not received it. He said that he would ability to do so is being challenged by the decisions of provide it, but when challenged he said: the Government. “Offhand, I couldn’t give an actual figure, but I will get it for the Committee.” The Committee has not received it. In evidence to the Dr Julian Lewis: I thank the shadow Secretary of Public Accounts Committee, the MOD director of general State for giving way so courteously. In his list of finance said that commitments, the one thing he has not mentioned is the strategic nuclear deterrent. In the light of the first “Ministers have committed to making a public statement” contribution that was made from the Opposition Back on the MOD’s spending gap. They have not made it. We Benches, would he care to reiterate his party’s commitment look forward to the promised information being made to the renewal of the strategic nuclear deterrent? available not only to the Defence Committee and the House, but to the forces, their families and the country. Until Ministers provide it, there will be an enormous Mr Murphy: My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow gap in the Government’s explanation for their decisions. and Furness (John Woodcock) is over my right shoulder, and I would not wish to steal his speech, because Finally, let me respond to the point about Scotland without anticipating its detail I expect it will be a made by the right hon. and learned Member for North detailed rebuttal of my right hon. Friend the Member East Fife and my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown). Briefly, (Mrs Moon), who unintentionally but inelegantly described our view remains that we believe in the minimum Scotland as “our back door”. For many of us it is home credible independent nuclear deterrent. The timing of and we want never to see a Royal Navy battlegroup off the Government’s process does surprise many, because the coast of Scotland, except perhaps as it sails from it seems to be designed for internal political dynamics there to foreign shores; but while there are real worries rather than the defence of our nation, but generally we about the Government’s defence policy on the Opposition do support the retention of the minimum independent Benches and across the country, those are dwarfed by nuclear deterrent, and we look forward to an informed the worries about the defence plans of another Government debate about its renewal. on these isles—the Scottish Government. Although I criticise the rushed nature of the UK Government’s defence review, I make the opposite criticism Sir Menzies Campbell: Will the right hon. Gentleman of the Scottish National party Government’s approach. give way? Their party has been around since 1943—

Mr Murphy: I have given way more often than I Sir Menzies Campbell: They’re not around today. probably should have, Mr Deputy Speaker, given that I am sure you will encourage me to sit down in just a Mr Murphy: They are almost represented by my hon. couple of minutes, but on the basis that he is not only a Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), who is right hon. and learned Member but also a friend, I will almost sitting in their usual place. An expat Scot, he give way briefly to the right hon. and learned Member looks as though last evening he spent a lot of time for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). enjoying Burns night. [Laughter.] 481 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 482 Review Review Thomas Docherty: Will my right hon. Friend give Dreghorn, Redford and Craigiehall, the three historic way? Edinburgh bases, with a new purpose built super-barracks for a multi-role brigade at Kirknewton, a command Mr Murphy: I know I am testing your patience, headquarters to be incorporated into the new formation Mr Deputy Speaker, but out of good manners I will headquarters at Leuchars, and an expansion of Glencorse give way to my hon. Friend. barracks near Penicuik. Thomas Docherty: My right hon. Friend is being The basis for the Ministry’s proposal is financial—the most generous, as are you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is he sell-off of land for prime residential development to aware of the sheer anger felt in Fife that after more than produce attractive capital receipts. A super-barracks a year of SNP Ministers saying that they would save will, I am told, be more cost-effective in the long term, RAF Leuchars, they have betrayed the people of Fife saving taxpayers’ money and boosting Treasury funds. with a cynical policy U-turn? It is an understandable and laudable aim, but I am extremely dubious about whether the plan has been Mr Murphy: My hon. Friend has campaigned long properly prepared, or is capable of delivering the savings and hard on RAF Leuchars, as has the right hon. and envisaged. learned Member for North East Fife. It is remarkable To date, I have asked almost 100 parliamentary questions that SNP Members have toured that part of Scotland to try to understand the financial reasoning behind the promising to keep open three bases, but now describe decision. Not one answer has given any details of likely the Government’s policy as a blueprint for the defence costs or possible capital receipts from disposal of the of an independent Scotland. Edinburgh estate. Instead, time and again I am told, The SNP has been around since 1934 and has been in “It’s too early,” or “Comprehensive planning is under power in the Scottish Government for five years, but way,” or “The information is not held in the format SNP Ministers have not even done the most remedial of requested.” The Minister was thinking. Scotland currently sits at the heart of one of “not able to provide a cost estimate”—[Official Report, 5 September the most successful union of nations anywhere on earth. 2011; Vol. 532, c. 91W.] The UK has a seat at the United Nations Security for the building of the new barracks at Kirknewton. Council, an invaluable transatlantic bond and a vital Running costs for the base seem equally unclear. He role in the EU, NATO and the Commonwealth. A wrote: collection of people from four different countries serving in Her Majesty’s armed forces have achieved great things “it is not possible to confirm budgetary requirements or allocations.”—[Official Report, 9 September 2011; Vol. 532, c. 844W.] together in the past and will, I am certain, do so in the future as well. The SNP wishes to turn the defence How, then, is it possible to do a comparison with the debate into a referendum about the location of Trident, costs of the undoubted modernisation work needed at as if moving it a few miles across the border would Dreghorn and Redford? No audit seems to have been make Scotland inherently safer. SNP Members may be carried out to establish the modernisation costs. hiding today, but they cannot hide from the truth that The story is not much better on capital receipts. I their policies are incoherent and will take Scotland out asked the Ministry what value it had placed on Craigiehall. of the RAF, the Royal Navy and the British Army, as The answer indicates that no recent valuation of this or well as having an irreversible impact on shipbuilding on the other sites had been carried out. The proposed the Clyde and Rosyth. Amid all the argument about the capital receipts were, I believe, based on valuations single question to be asked in the referendum, the done in 2007, when the property boom was at its height. debate must be about all of the answers that the SNP A further report was commissioned and carried out in refuses to provide. March last year by GVAGrimleys, but despite tenacious Where the Government are doing the right thing in attempts, there seems to be a great reticence to publish the national interest, whether it is Afghanistan, Libya any detail from that. or defence reform, we will continue enthusiastically to If Craigiehall is to be used as a new business site, I support them. Therefore, today, I enthusiastically thank have bad news. The industrial capacity in Newbridge the Chair of the Select Committee and all its members and the, as yet unstarted, international hub development for their forensic work in scrutinising the previous and next to the airport are close locations that would be far the current Governments on their work on defence, and more desirable. There are also development limitations I thank the Backbench Business Committee for enabling cased by the listed building status of large parts of today’s debate. Craigiehall and also Redford barracks, which may make the sites difficult to sell. The depressive effect of all of 3.20 pm those sites coming on to the market at the same time is Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I welcome likely to limit their value severely. The financial case is, the opportunity to speak in today’s debate. I should as we say in Scotland, on a bit of a shooglie peg. declare my interest as a Member for a constituency It is not just the financial case that is lacking in detail. facing the loss of an historic headquarters, and a resident On an array of important factors there is worrying of a city facing the loss of an additional two barracks. I ambiguity. The Minister cannot tell me what transport have been calling on the Ministry of Defence to rethink infrastructure is needed in and around Kirknewton to their proposals. I made the case for a future for Craigiehall allow an Army base to function, but to the Secretary of State for Scotland in November, and “comprehensive planning work is now under way”—[Official my contribution today restates that call. Report, 18 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 867W.] The SNP may, now at least, be happy with the The reply to questions about the effects on schools, basing plans for Scotland, especially given their absence housing and health services for Army personnel is always today, but I am not. The plan put forward is to replace the same: “Comprehensive planning work is now under 483 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 484 Review Review way.” In fact, that is the reply to almost all my questions for a multiple HQ base. If the case is financial, accurate about the proposal. Surely comprehensive planning work and up-to-date figures are needed to demonstrate its should have taken place before the decision to close cost-effectiveness. When accurate figures are available, three historic bases and commit to £600 million of new and not before, a decision can be made on the future of spend. the Army estate in Edinburgh, taking into account all The Army, too, has its concerns. I have spoken at the issues. I urge the Ministry to think again. length with the commanding officer and understand that Glencorse barracks is near capacity. There are 3.28 pm serious concerns about the feasibility of moving the Army to a super-barracks, and about the recommendations Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Defence debates of the review in general. There is a desire for Leuchars in this House are best when Members stick to national to remain a back-up airfield for Typhoon operations in security, rather than party political knockabout. I respect case of adverse weather conditions in the north of the Secretary of State, who I think is a very capable Scotland. The work needed to make the base at Minister, and wish him well in his new post—but, like Lossiemouth operational, and dates for the completion my right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire of that work, are unclear. (Mr Murphy), I regret the party political tone of some of his remarks, and feel that I should briefly respond. There is also strong concern among the civilian population in areas of Edinburgh where Army families I have been a Member for almost 20 years, and are currently based. A move away by the Army would during that time, under Conservative Governments the put local shops and schools in jeopardy, as roll numbers defence budget has been cut as a proportion of national would fall significantly. Local businesses would be affected income, and under Labour Governments it has increased. and a tight-knit community would be destroyed. The Under the Major Government, between 1991-92—when MOD has indicated that the current service family I entered the House—and 1997-98, the share of national accommodation in Edinburgh will be kept and used for income, or GDP, spent on defence fell from 4% to 2.5%; personnel based at Kirknewton, but it is difficult to see under the Blair-Brown Government it rose from 2.5% how that will work in practice. I attended a road show to 2.7%. In a parliamentary question to the Chief about the proposals, at the invitation of the Army Secretary to the Treasury last week, following the second Families Federation. The families have been given very tranche of redundancies, I asked what proportion of limited details about their proposed resettlement, and national income is spent on defence, and was told that it the uncertainty is understandably causing a great deal is still 2.7%. But the Chief Secretary continued: of stress. “It is impossible to state exactly what percentage of GDP or gross national income will be spent in future years…However, I Particularly worrying is the period between 2014, expect the percentage to remain above the 2% NATO target.”— when Redford and Dreghorn will close, and 2017, when [Official Report, 25 January 2012; Vol. 539, c. 240W.] Kirknewton is likely to become operational. The units In other words, it will fall, and fall quite significantly. currently based in Redford and Dreghorn are light infantry and, as such, not the type that would form part Dan Byles: On those figures, does the hon. Gentleman of a multi-role brigade, so at some point they will be not accept, however, that the international situation was relocated and other units will need to move in, but it is changeable? We had the end of the cold war and the not clear which base they would operate from. widespread demand for a peace dividend during the As I have said, the proposal is also significant for my period that he referred to under the Major Government. constituency. The closure of Craigiehall confirmed that, We then had 9/11 and the wars in Iraq and in Afghanistan despite a 3,500 increase in Army numbers and a major during the period that he referred to as the “Blair-Brown” restructuring exercise currently under way, Scotland years, whereas we are now out of Iraq and will shortly will lose its command headquarters, although a welcome pull out of Afghanistan. He cannot look at the issue in senior Army presence will be kept to provide representation isolation. and communication with the Scottish Government and others; a two-star officer, to be known as General Hugh Bayley: The hon. Gentleman makes some fair Officer Scotland, will be based in Scotland with a small comments, but the Government have not established support team. Nevertheless, replacing the divisional that the level of risk facing the country is declining, so headquarters with a single support command headquarters they have not made the case in defence and security will reduce the opportunity for the Army to engage with terms for the reduction in expenditure that they are high-level regional and local partners in Scotland. making. The closure of Craigiehall HQ would also have a The United States, the UK, France, Greece and Albania significant impact on post reductions, which would are the only NATO members that spend at or above 2% affect civilians currently employed. In Edinburgh West, of their GDP on defence; the other 23 of the 28 NATO 103 civilian roles would be lost in addition to 89 military allies spend less. The Libya campaign showed that posts, which would mean the loss of experienced and current European spending on defence is not sufficient skilled staff at a time when two further HQs are planned to conduct an effective military operation against a to move into Scotland to Leuchars and Kirknewton. I poorly armed regime distracted by a civilian uprising in believe that there are clear efficiency savings to be made a sparsely populated country with only 6 million inhabitants. in co-locating headquarters at Craigiehall. It would not Within weeks of the start of military operations, European only work at a command and cost level, but save the countries were running out of precision-guided missiles experience and skills of those already at Craigiehall. and needed to turn to the United States to provide I think that the current capacity review will reveal them. We also needed to turn to the United States that many aspects of the present proposals are simply to provide surveillance aircraft to identify targets and to undeliverable, and that Craigiehall might be best placed provide air-to-air refuelling. 485 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 486 Review Review [Hugh Bayley] or AWACS—although the UK, of course, did not join that initiative? Why do we not do the same with air-to-air All 28 NATO member states voted for the Libya refuelling? campaign, but less than half participated in it and fewer Most of all, we need better co-operation in our than one third contributed to strike operations. In June defence industries. The armed forces in Europe have 2011, in a speech in Brussels, the outgoing United more service personnel than the United States, but we States Defence Secretary, Robert Gates, said that are way behind in terms of defence budgets, investment “many of those allies sitting on the sidelines do so not because and capabilities. they do not want to participate, but simply because they cannot. The military capabilities simply aren’t there.” Mrs Moon: One way to resolve the problem of sharing That led Mr Gates, just before he left office, to question capacity would be to have an agreement with Luxembourg, the future of NATO, and in the same speech he said: a land-locked country that has no coastline but two maritime patrol aircraft. Perhaps we could agree to “If current trends in the decline of European defence capabilities are not halted and reversed, future US political leaders…may not share its maritime patrol capability, as we have none. consider the return on America’s investment in NATO worth the cost.” Hugh Bayley: My hon. Friend has made her point well. I would like us not only to make bilateral agreements Robert Gates is not a maverick. He served as Defence with other countries but, far more, to look strategically Secretary under the Bush presidency and under Obama, across Europe at how we should restructure our defence and in that speech he articulated views that are frequently industries to eliminate duplication and produce what expressed by members of the United States Congress we need—common equipment on a common basis. We and other US speakers at meetings of the NATO Parliament should acquire major capital items of equipment that Assembly, which I attend along with the right hon. and will be shared in NATO operations on a common basis. learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), who leads our delegation. Indeed, a report In the few seconds that I have left, I would like to say adopted by the economics and security committee at a word or two about the local implications of the our most recent meeting in October 2011 stated: defence cuts for my constituency and the rest of Yorkshire. The latest figure that I have for the number of regular “If anything, Secretary Gates was being diplomatic. Europe’s defence posture has grown woefully weak…It is time for Europe military personnel based in Yorkshire and the Humber to get serious about this issue.” is 14,730; for North Yorkshire the figure is 13,310, and in my constituency of York it is 880. The figures date In November, in a speech to the Australian Parliament, from 2009, before the general election. If between now President Obama declared that the United States was a and 2015 those figures reduced in proportion with the Pacific power, and said that maintaining a military overall reduction in the numbers of our armed forces—that presence in the Asia-Pacific region was a top priority is, by 8.5% or 9%—one might expect force reductions of and would not be affected by United States defence about 1,300 across our region, of whom 1,200 would be cuts—a point that he re-emphasised earlier this month in North Yorkshire and 70, perhaps, in York itself. in a speech at the Pentagon about the US comprehensive defence review. On the day last week when the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for South Those statements from our American allies make it Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), made his written ministerial clear to me that we in Europe need to do more than we statement about the second tranche of redundancies, I are currently doing. Although we stay above the NATO tabled a number of parliamentary questions asking for target of 2% of GDP spending on defence, our defence these regional numbers at the time of the general election, cuts in the UK make it harder for us to persuade our in December 2011, and in 2015. At business questions European allies of the need for them to do their bit and last week I asked whether the Leader of the House get their spending up to that target. could make sure that I got answers before this debate. I In President Obama’s speech at the Pentagon he said: received a letter from the Minister with responsibility for defence personnel, but it did not contain the figures. “the size and the structure of our military and defense budgets I hope that those figures will be provided to me as soon have to be driven by a strategy, not the other way around.” as possible. The UK Government need to operate on the same basis. I therefore believe that the defence cuts that the Government have announced should be contingent on 3.39 pm the successful implementation, on a Europe-wide basis, Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I believe of a strategy to increase defence expenditure and make that the world is a more dangerous place than it has ever better use of the resources that we already have by been during my time in Parliament. I believe that it is a eliminating waste and duplication. more dangerous place than it was during the cold war. The UK-France defence and security co-operation That was a more stable situation. We have heard about treaty is a step in the right direction. It will allow the the resurgent and more authoritarian Russia. China is shared deployment of aircraft and aircraft carriers and increasingly muscling its way into various parts of the air-to-air refuelling capabilities, and I am sure that as a world. Iran will soon be a nuclear power. The Arab result capabilities will be provided more cost-effectively spring might throw up more problems than solutions. than if we did such things alone. The nascent Nordic As a maritime nation, the Royal Navy always has defence co-operation is another example. But we clearly played and always will play an essential part in defending need more shared assets in Europe. Why are we not our freedoms. I do not believe that the Royal Navy is a buying strategic airlift on a joint basis with allies, as leftover from the cold war or a replay of second world NATO did with the airborne warning and control system, war convoy systems. It is an essential part of our 487 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 488 Review Review defence. I am extremely worried about what is happening “Our assessment is that current force levels are inadequate to to the Royal Navy. It will soon be the weakest it has hold off even a small-size invasion”. been since the mid-19th century. In 1982, the Royal Admiral Sir Sandy Woodward wrote in the Daily Mail: Navy was only just capable of retaking the Falklands. I “The truth is we couldn’t defend anything further than the have a list of the appalling casualties that we suffered other side of the Channel”. and the number of our ships that were sunk. We just Air Commodore Andrew Lambert was quoted in The managed it. Guardian as saying that the Since 1997, our armed forces have been cut by 12% “British public is not aware how thin the ice is…or how bad and 24,000 people have been made unemployed. Since things could get” 1975, the number of cruisers, destroyers and frigates and that the Falkland Islands are has been cut by a staggering two thirds. The fleet of minesweepers, which, along with the Americans, will be “ripe for the picking.” vital in keeping oil flowing through the strait of Hormuz I am not saying that I want this to happen or that it will if Iran makes any moves there, has been cut from happen, but I am afraid that we in this House must 40 vessels in 1975 to 15 today. Those are worrying occasionally sound warnings—that is our duty. figures. We are constantly told that we need larger ships and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence that we do not need so many. I am not suggesting that (Mr Gerald Howarth): My hon. Friend raises concerns we can make direct comparisons with the past or that that are widespread around the country, particularly in we should look back to the Royal Navy of 1809, which the light of the sabre-rattling by Argentina. However, had a fighting strength of 773 vessels. I remember all the advice that we have received says that the Argentines standing on the deck of a vast American aircraft carrier have neither the capability nor the intention to repeat when I was a member of the Defence Committee and the folly of 1982 and that the military deterrent we have the captain saying, “The ocean is a very large place and in place is fully up to the task. I assure my hon. Friend I can hide my aircraft carrier.” However, we are faced and the House that, in this 30th anniversary year, all of with enormous problems of piracy and one cannot us, as Ministers, are much seized of the matter. solve the problems of maritime protection by having just 19 major vessels in the Royal Navy. Mr Leigh: I am grateful to the Minister. We pay tribute to him and to his colleagues in the Ministry of Let us consider the threats that we face. I am not Defence for the sterling work that they do and the way saying that they will necessarily come to anything, but in which they have defended the defence budget. they are there and they are real. Let us compare our strength with that of Argentina. We have seven destroyers The Secretary of State said that part of our strategic and it has five. That is not an overwhelming predominance defence is to have a balanced budget. We all understand for the Royal Navy. We have a similar number of aircraft that. However, he is using precisely the arguments that carriers, namely none. were used time and again in the 1930s when people warned of our military weakness and successive Chancellors of the Exchequer argued that we were well defended, Mr Jenkin: The importance of aircraft carriers, with rubbished the figures that were being given to them their carrier-borne air defence for the fleet and carrier-borne about our military weakness, and said that the most strike capacity, is that one is able to operate away from important thing was that the country had a balanced the home nation. If we fought another Falklands war, it budget. would be all too close to Argentina’s home bases and thousands of miles from ours. We do not blame our right hon. and hon. Friends the Ministers and the Department of State for this. We know that they are fighting their corner; the previous Mr Leigh: That is precisely the point that I was going Secretary of State put up a tremendous fight. However, to make next. If there were a war with Iran or Argentina, there must be some rebalancing. As my right hon. we would not be fighting it in the channel. In the case of Friend the Member for North East Hampshire Argentina, we would be fighting it thousands of miles (Mr Arbuthnot) said, we are now spending more on from any shore-based defence systems. I therefore do winter fuel allowance than on the entire Foreign Office not believe that the figures alone give an accurate basis budget. We must have a reordering of strategic defence from which we can draw comfort. capabilities, because there is nothing more important than defence. In 1980, the Army had 160,000 soldiers. Dr Murrison: It is important to get this matter right That number is set to fall to 100,000, and the Government in the context of the Falklands, given the activity in have announced that they want the total strength of the Buenos Aires. I accept entirely my hon. Friend’s point Army to go down to 84,000 by 2020. The Army will about the number of platforms. However, does he accept have been cut by 12% since 1997. Air Force personnel that the capability of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air are being cut from 90,000 to 40,000. Those figures are Force is immense compared with that of Argentina? In deeply worrying. many respects, our potential ability to project force is The previous Government said that 25,000 soldiers, much greater than it was in 1982 for that reason. 8,000 sailors and 17,000 airmen were surplus to requirements precisely at the moment when we were Mr Leigh: I accept some of what my hon. Friend fighting two major wars. Sir Richard Dannatt, the says. However, I pray in aid the recent United Kingdom former head of the Army, has said that we are facing a National Defence Association report, “Inconvenient situation whereby the Army is massively overstretched Truths”, which was written by former defence chiefs. It and many soldiers are having only one year between said: operations, with much of that time spent away from 489 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 490 Review Review [Mr Leigh] John Woodcock: That is a very important point with which I shall deal at some length in a moment. Suffice it home. We must appreciate that we live in an increasingly to say for the moment that it is not simply the Liberal dangerous world. We must, as a House, be prepared to Democrats’ review; it is the Government’s review. They make tough and difficult decisions and be determined have commissioned it. The Conservative Under-Secretary to reorder our priorities and say that our defence forces of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Mid are essential for all our futures. Worcestershire (Peter Luff), looks like he is in two I was recently struck by a passage in Martin Gilbert’s minds about it, but his own party’s former Defence book, “Winston Churchill: The Wilderness Years”, that Secretary sanctioned and announced it. The right hon. quotes Churchill on the night that Eden resigned: Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), was clearly not booted out because of that particular misdemeanour. “From midnight to dawn, I lay on my bed, consumed by emotions of sorrow and fear. There seemed one strong young We have to ask whether it is right for the UK to figure standing up against long, dismal, drawling tides of drift maintain its independent deterrent. It strikes me as and surrender, of wrong measurements and feeble impulses. Now strange that it is often the very people who rail against he was gone. I watched the daylight slowly creep in through the the hegemony of the United States of America in world windows and saw before me in mental gaze the vision of Death.” affairs who are prepared to sit quietly under its nuclear umbrella and suggest that the UK should not take responsibility for its own defence. I do not include my 3.49 pm right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): East (Mr Brown) in that comment. I am glad to see him I am not quite sure how to follow that quotation, so I back in his place for my speech—I think. shall confine myself to saying how moving remarks We should redouble our efforts to tackle the proliferation those were. of nuclear weapons. I am proud that the previous I have to confess that I had not intended to speak Labour Government were explicit in setting the ultimate today, but Members will understand why, in the target of zero nuclear weapons—of a world free from circumstances, I thought I should stress the importance the threat of nuclear weapons—but we should not that my party continues to attach to retaining and accept the argument that renewal is an act of proliferation. renewing the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent. It is not. In fact, non-renewal would be an act of unilateral disarmament. It is right that our party has I say at the outset that the nuclear deterrent should left those days behind. primarily and ultimately be a matter of national and global security, not of employment. If we could genuinely Given the magnitude of destruction that the use of be confident that the UK unilaterally disarming would nuclear weapons would inflict, nuclear weapons are make the world safer for future generations of UK rightly an uncomfortable issue for all hon. Members citizens, and would make the almost unimaginable horror and the country, but they are a deterrent. Our holding and destruction of nuclear war less likely, that should of of nuclear capability is designed to make a nuclear war course come ahead even of the thousands of jobs that less not more likely. So far, that has been successful. renewing the deterrent would support in my constituency and the many thousands more that it would support Bob Stewart: To slightly corrupt the saying, if we across the country in the supply chain. However, my wish to avoid war, we should prepare for it and have the simple point is that unilaterally disarming would do no means to stop it. I fully support what the hon. Gentleman such thing. says about deterrence. If we were to take the view that deciding now not to renew would make the UK safer, we would have to be John Woodcock: The hon. Gentleman is quite right—he able to make decisions about the world as we thought it put it far more succinctly than I did and I am grateful to would look in 30 or 40 years’ time. We would also have him for doing so. to believe that the unilateral gesture would pave the way I want to stress in the concluding part of my speech for a change in behaviour by other regimes. On the that the current Administration are creating a level of latter point, disarming would show a fundamental risk around the deterrent. That should be a matter misunderstanding of the motivation of other regimes of concern to Members on both sides of the House. As and groups that seek, or may in the future seek, nuclear an aside, I hope the Minister who winds up could capability. They do that to increase their capacity for address the matter that was raised this week— aggression, not primarily because they fear the UK’s independent deterrent. On the former point, the pace of change has been so great in the past decade that we Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): The simply cannot possibly say with confidence that a deterrent Minister does not wind up. will not be needed decades hence. John Woodcock: Oh, there are no wind-ups. Perhaps Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend is demonstrating the Minister could find time to intervene in the short that he is probably the most knowledgeable Member on time remaining to make something clear. There are the issue of the deterrent. [Interruption.] I can see that significant cuts to the MOD police. Do they mean that the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) will there are plans to reduce the MOD police presence at get me afterwards. Faslane or Coulport? Would the Minister like to intervene? Has my hon. Friend made any assessment of the Liberal Democrats’ current review of the deterrent and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence what the pitfalls might be? (Peter Luff) indicated dissent. 491 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 492 Review Review John Woodcock: Okay. If he wants to write and make cast to one side economic constraints—I hope that I am the position clear at a later stage, that is absolutely fine. not being naive or difficult in doing that—and instead focus on what we should be doing for the defence of the Peter Luff indicated assent. realm. I had the good fortune of being asked to serve on our John Woodcock: On the risk that has been created policy review group before the last election. I was the around renewal, the alternatives to Trident review, to MP on the group, which was chaired by the noble which my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle Baroness Neville-Jones and produced this weighty upon Tyne East referred, will be led by the Minister for document, “An Unquiet World: Submission to the Shadow the Armed Forces—it is a shame he cannot be here for Cabinet”, on which our manifesto was subsequently the debate. Essentially, the review uses Government based. She says on page 8: resources actively to explore the idea of adapting Astute “Capability…needs to be reassessed. An incoming Conservative class submarines for nuclear capability that falls far government should conduct a Defence Review not with the aim short of being a deterrent. That could be a cause of of inflicting further cuts, but of ensuring that our armed forces increased proliferation and could increase the risk of have been asked to do the right job, are properly equipped and confusion. If a cruise missile is launched from a submarine trained and are employed on the right terms and conditions.” at a point of war and the aggressor nation does not Elsewhere in the report she says: know whether it is nuclear or conventionally tipped, the “Defence Reviews tend to strike dread into the hearts of those prospects of escalation and horrible consequences increase. involved or affected,” The Government have put that in train and we await the because of the likelihood of cuts, although this is review. “not a necessary outcome and not one this Policy Group would In conclusion, the delay in the proposed in-service wish to see.” date of the successor to the deterrent is—it must be In other words, the policy group on which I served, and stressed—driven not by national security or primarily which informed the manifesto of my party, took the industrial concerns, but by a political fudge to delay the view that there should be a defence review, but that it vote until the next Parliament. That creates increased should not necessarily involve defence cuts. costs for taxpayers because the overall cost of renewing our deterrent will increase. In addition, it risks stretching The reality, of course, is what we have seen since, the life of the current Vanguard class submarine to the which the Secretary of State laid out plainly in his limit of safe operation. Pressure on the delivery timetable speech. Indeed, it rather reminded me of a speech by a of the successor has been increased by putting political chairman of a multinational company explaining to deals above the national interest. shareholders that things were not all that great and that he would have to make some cuts to the company, but that he very much hoped that dividends would once 4pm again start to be paid in the years to come. It was an Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): If I may be accountant’s speech, rather than a defence speech. I do forgiven, I shall not dwell on the welcome recommitment not blame him for that: that is his job. None the less, I made by the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness have the great luxury of being a Back Bencher and (John Woodcock) to the independent nuclear deterrent, being the chairman of the all-party group on the armed which my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East forces. I therefore feel it right to speak up for the armed (Dr Lewis) will have very much welcomed, if not the forces, even if that were to upset those on my own Front right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Bench, which is not something that I would ever seek to Brown)—who, I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be do, as I know my hon. Friend the Minister would agree. pleased to hear, none the less looked perfectly benign The first thing to say is that the only certainty in the during his speech. Rather, I would like to focus on more defence world is uncertainty. We never know what is general topics. going to happen next. Who would have predicted the I was very struck, and impressed, by the speech of my Falklands? Who would have predicted Saddam’s invasion right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. He of Kuwait? Who would have predicted 9/11 or 7/7? Who has been dealt an extraordinarily difficult hand, in the would have thought that we would simultaneously be sense that he came into government, discovered a £38 billion fighting two wars, as we were recently in Afghanistan black hole in the defence budget and was then required and Iraq? Who would have predicted Libya, Kosovo, by our right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the the Balkans or Sierra Leone? None of them was even Chancellor of the Exchequer to make defence’s contribution remotely predictable—nor, of course, was the second towards balancing the books. However, the purpose of world war or the first world war, which was sparked off today’s debate is not to consider the great national by the assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand issues of balancing the books and dealing with the in Sarajevo. Unpredictability is the absolutely highest deficit left to us by the previous Government. That is a certainty in defence. matter for other times and other people, in a higher Against that background of uncertainty, let us think position than mine. Rather, our position in this debate about what we are facing today. Who knows what Iran ought to be that which was exemplified by my hon. will do? We could see further activity from the Iranians Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh): to within weeks—there is a threat to block the straits of consider whether what we are currently doing is the Hormuz. Israel is threatening pre-emptive—nuclear, right thing for the defence of the realm. If it is not, the potentially—action against them. The whole Palestinian Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Prime Minister and question remains unanswered, and Syria is in turmoil. others at a higher pay grade than me will have to We have no idea what is going to happen in Egypt, explain why they are doing the wrong thing for the despite the lifting of the state of emergency, and Pakistan defence of the realm. However, we in this debate should is on the brink of collapse. We do not really know what 493 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 494 Review Review [Mr James Gray] (Mr Gray). I found myself agreeing with pretty much everything that he said, although I would suggest that is going on in Libya; there is certainly a bit of a vacuum many people did see the second world war coming. That there. The situation in Afghanistan is uncertain, and was his only example that perhaps fell down slightly. Iraq is close to meltdown. We are living in an incredibly What I find amazing about the Defence Committee’s dangerous and uncertain world, and we should be preparing work is not only the bipartisanship under which it our defences for that uncertainty. operates under the chairmanship of the right hon. So what are we actually doing? The hon. Member for Member for North East Hampshire but the breadth of York Central (Hugh Bayley) was right to say that Labour knowledge of its members. We have seen that illustrated Governments tend to spend more on defence than again today in the contributions from the right hon. Conservative ones; that is historically accurate. I very Gentleman, from my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend much regret to say that my great party is announcing an (Mrs Moon) and from others. We produced a report Army that will be the smallest since the Crimean war. following our forensic investigation into the strategic Some define an army as a body of 100,000 soldiers. It is defence and security review, and our conclusions were therefore arguable, depending on how one uses the clear and damning. We concluded that the SDSR was a word, that in the near future, Great Britain will no Treasury-driven budget settlement that would have dreadful longer have an army; it will have only a defence force. consequences for the defence of the realm; it would be As a Back Bencher who does not labour under the great dreadful for the morale of service personnel, and for considerations of state, I am able to say to the House UK manufacturing. that that would be a disgraceful situation, given the The decision on carrier strike capability was rushed uncertainty that we are facing. The Royal Air Force is and bizarre. On the question of the air frame, it is being cut in half; the Navy is being emasculated. It is my perfectly reasonable for the Government to consider view that this country no longer has the capability to do whether the F35-B was the correct choice in the context the things that we have always done. of Future Force 2020. After all, the United States had Why should that be the case? I want to quote a placed the B variant on probation, and there were previous Prime Minister, who shall remain nameless. technical concerns about the lift. My understanding is He said to me, “I went to see the teachers, and they told that, at that time, only the United Kingdom and the me to get lost. I went to see the doctors and nurses, and United States had signed up to take an order. It is also they told me to get lost. Then I went to see the generals. valid to argue that we should consider the question of They saluted, turned to the right and marched off, interoperability with our allies, as well as the value for saying, ‘Whatever you say, Prime Minister. I will happily money of the air frame to be chosen. Those are all carry that out.’” That is precisely what is happening reasonable elements that a sensible Government should now. Whatever task is put before our armed forces, they examine. will find a way to do it—they are a can-do organisation— Unfortunately, the Government did not bother to but should we be asking them to do it? take the time to understand the consequences of the In the 15 years that I have been in this place, we have decision to switch variants. For example, the F-35C talked, in these dusty Thursday afternoon debates, about cannot land on the French carrier, thus defeating the overstretch and about the fact that the armed forces argument of interoperability, particularly given the Anglo- were unable to carry out their duties. We blamed the French alliance. The cost of the F-35—B and C—is still Labour Government for all that, but I now find myself not known, and that is a concern shared by the Defence speaking from the Government Back Benches and making Committee and our counterparts in the United States precisely the same arguments as those I have made over Congress, the Pentagon, the Canadians, the Australians the past 15 years. I do not believe, given the cuts that we and every other country that is purchasing either the are now facing, that we will be able to carry out our F-35B or C. moral duty to lead the world and to intervene for good Lastly, many of us do not have confidence that, most around the world. We are hampering ourselves in that crucially, the F-35C will be able to land on the Queen regard. Elizabeth class carrier. It would be a good idea if it were For that reason, I believe that defence spending and able to come down safely to our own carrier, although budgets should be separate from those of schools and perhaps I am a bit of a traditionalist. hospitals and from other parts of the national budget. We have a moral duty to do certain things in the world, Mrs Moon: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Admiral and we should not allow our economic situation to Sir Trevor Soar, Commander-in-Chief, Fleet, said in a prevent us from doing them. I regret to have to say that speech to industrialists in the US that, due to the US I am at odds with my own party on this great subject. defence cuts, the chance of us being able to buy the joint We should find a way to maintain our defence spending strike fighter are reducing, as it will not be delivered on at a level at which we, as a nation, can punch above our time? As alternatives, we will have to look at the F-18 weight. from the Americans and the Rafale from the French.

4.7 pm Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend is right. The Times paints a disturbing picture today. We on the Defence Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Committee and the wider defence community have for It is an absolute pleasure to take part in the debate, and some time had serious concerns about the capability of I commend our Select Committee Chairman, the right Lockheed Martin to fulfil the aspirations set out. When hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Minister appeared before the Defence Committee, it for his work on securing it. It is also an absolute was disturbing that he adopted a relatively blasé approach pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North Wiltshire to the problem, in direct contradiction to the postures 495 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 496 Review Review of Secretary Gates, who has already been name-checked, the scene where he comes to Britain and the British have and Secretary Panetta, who have been turning the screws gone home at 5 o’clock to have their tea. That is pretty on Lockheed Martin. As the decision has been rushed, much the kind of part-time navy that we will have if the we might have to go back and reverse it, and go to the Minister gets his way. F-35B, which would be not only embarrassing but a vast waste of money. We have only two other options: as my hon. Friend says, the F-18 Super Hornet, a Mr Ellwood: I was hoping to resist the temptation to proven air frame, of which the Australians have just intervene, but I want to back up my hon. Friend the ordered additional quantities, and for which Secretary Minister and put in perspective the hon. Gentleman’s Panetta has announced an additional order, or the argument. He is trying to get into the tactics of how a French variant, which, to be fair, would at least solve battle is operated. What does he want to fly off these the Charles de Gaulle issue. aircraft carriers? I am afraid his Government got rid of On the carriers themselves, it is no secret that I have the Sea Harriers, so he would not be able to use the absolute scorn for the decision that was taken to take Storm Shadow, the Brimstone or any of the guns, the Invincible class out of service. In fact, despite the because the Harriers did not exist—[Interruption.] claim of a minority on the Government Benches that the Libyan operation justifies the decision, the reverse is Thomas Docherty: I am going to continue with my true, as it demonstrates absolutely the need for carrier speech, because it is my time that I am sacrificing. The capability throughout the decade. hon. Gentleman tries to make it a false choice, as he always does, but he was at the heart of the decision Mr Gerald Howarth indicated dissent. making. Let us not forget that he was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the former Secretary of State. It Thomas Docherty: The Minister shakes his head. was his bright idea, I suspect, to get rid of the carrier, Perhaps it would help him if I were to quote the because the other Ministers are all far too clever to do commander of the Italian navy, Rear Admiral Treu, that. who said: The choice between Typhoon, Tornado and Harrier “Libya is really showing that these aircraft” is a false one. I have never accepted and the Defence the Harrier— Committee has never accepted the false choice made by “and their carrier are needed. They are five minutes from the the current Government, following the Treasury-driven operational zone, which reduces fuel consumption and wear and cuts. We will see price gouging and there will be a tear. With less reliance on in-flight refuelling, it is easier to do significant rise in the cost of the Queen Elizabeth class dynamic tasking and shift operation, and they cost less to operate carrier, not because of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance—I than Tornados and Eurofighters”. have some fantastic workers in my constituency, whom I have the greatest respect for the Minister and I know the Ministers and others have been to see, and they are he cares passionately about the future of aviation. He delivering in Plymouth, in the north-east, on the Clyde has been a strong voice in the Government—dare I say, and over at Birkenhead—but because of the rushed one of the few strong voices for the defence industry in decision. We will have to buy cats and traps off-the-shelf the Government—but what does he know that our First from the Americans at a price-gouged cost of up to Sea Lord, our commanders in the field and our allies do £2 billion because due diligence was not done on whether not? it would work. The prices are going up because of the short-term decisions. We have no idea how we will Mr Gerald Howarth: I am most grateful to the hon. refuel the aircraft because of the decision to switch Gentleman for his kind tribute, although I am not sure from the short take off, vertical landing—or STOVL— whether it will be career enhancing. Nevertheless I will variant to carriers and that will also involve significant take it in the spirit in which it was given. Of course costs. carriers would have been advantageous, but they were not necessary in the circumstances of Libya. The In the last minute of my time, I want briefly to talk Government are going ahead with the Queen Elizabeth about Scotland. The Scottish National party is not here and Prince of Wales carriers precisely because we today because its Members have gone into hiding. The understand the need for carrier strike. We had endless SNP defence policy unravelled last week within hours debates about that in the SDSR and we came to that of its being unveiled. Sheer anger was felt by communities conclusion, which is the right one in my view. In Libya, around Scotland at the betrayal by that party, which, however, we did not need carriers; HMS Ocean did a after years of claiming that Scotland did not receive great job for the Army Air Corps Apaches. what it called its fair share of spending, has admitted that it would spend even less on defence. After campaigning, as the SNP claimed, to save RAF Leuchars, it has Thomas Docherty: I am most grateful to the Minister. announced that it would close RAF Leuchars and RAF He is obviously very clever, because he has led me Kinloss. In a separate Scotland, there would be no straight on to my next point, which is about the replacement Rosyth dockyard and no Clyde shipbuilding. Companies for the Invincible class, the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft would be pulling out of Scotland. There are also serious carrier. He perhaps forgot to mention that, even some concerns for the rest of the United Kingdom. How time after 2020, when we eventually get a functioning would we deliver the deterrent? How would we secure aircraft carrier, it will only be part-time. We will only be the high north? How would the military be put together? able to operate it for perhaps 150 days of the year, so we must be really hopeful that those who seek to attack us I hope that one of the Committees of the House will only do it on the five or six months a year when we are find an opportunity in the months ahead to scrutinise able to respond. It reminds me of Asterix the Gaul and those very important issues. 497 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 498 Review Review 4.18 pm Dr Murrison: No, I do not think it is correct. America has made it clear that over the spending period it will Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I have to reduce its defence spending. declare my interest as a member of the reserve forces. I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee Thomas Docherty: Slowly. on introducing this important debate and my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire Dr Murrison: Well, the rate will decline—of course it (Mr Arbuthnot) and his Committee on their timely will. report, published this week. I read it with great interest We gained some insight into how the disconnect and if I have any criticism of it I would have to start between programmes and the ability to pay for them with the fact that it perhaps does not sufficiently recognise arose last summer when Lord Levene delivered his two rigorous and well-regarded studies, the Levene verdict on the MOD. His revelations dovetailed disquietingly report and Bernard Gray’s report, which set the scene well with Gray’s. He found a “bloated top-level defence for many of the points that it raises. In May 2010, of board” supervising a course, the coalition Government inherited the extremely “department with overly bureaucratic management structures, difficult task of bringing some order to a chaotic defence dominated by committees leading to indecisiveness and a lack of budget. responsibility.” The Gray report was leaked to the electorate before Last year, the armed forces covenant was written into the general election, so voters such as those in my law for the first time, as the Prime Minister said it would constituency, which has a large defence interest, had the be. The covenant is not just about the compact between benefit of seeing it, as did I. The previous Government troops and the public. It also concerns the deal between might well have tried to delay the publication of the troops and the high command. Those in charge betray report because the word “grotesque” reflected some of the covenant if they allow the kind of shoddy, top-level the real horrors in Defence Equipment and Support management evidenced by both Gray and Levene. However, that were unearthed in the dying days of Labour’s we still have nearly 500 one-star officers and above—a 13-year stewardship. Bernard Gray told us that the whole battalion of senior officers on packages well in MOD was running a “substantially overheated equipment excess of £100,000. Defence Medical Services is a good programme” and that the sclerotic Department was case in point. To oversee the care of a patient population hampering our ability to conduct difficult current less than half the size of Wiltshire we require one operations. He went on to say: three-star, five two-star and 15 one-star officers who “The problems, and the sums of money involved, have almost serve not as doctors, dentists or nurses but as administrators. lost their power to shock, so endemic is the issue.” Our top medic in Afghanistan is not among them—he is just a colonel. I commend the Government for the remedial measures announced before Christmas to reduce Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): But do I not the number of starred appointments, both uniformed remember the hon. Gentleman arguing from the Front and civilian. Bench for more ships, larger armies and more aircraft? More generally, I note that although there here have been and will continue to be compulsory redundancies, Dr Murrison: The hon. Gentleman will also remember the package is so reasonable that there has been that Bernard Gray was a special adviser to his party. In disappointment among many of those not selected, as that context it is quite important to note that the report there was during previous rounds. From experience, I was produced by a supporter not of the Conservative bear testament to that. party but of his party. It is of course reasonable to flex personnel from one The gap between the programme and the budget in trade to another—a contention, I think, of paragraphs 67 May 2010 was a truly grotesque £38 billion. Also grotesque to 70 of this week’s Defence Committee report—but the is the disarray over how to deal with the crisis among majority of pinch-point trades are so specific by rank or those who masterminded it. We heard examples of that extent of retraining necessary that it would actually be today from the shadow Defence Secretary. He says he quite difficult to do so. Flexible though our young supports only £5 billion of Government cuts, but the people are, we simply cannot ask an infantryman to shadow Chancellor says that the Labour party would become an Intelligence Corps linguist, a pharmacist at keep all the remedial spending reductions that the the rank of captain or a Cat. A nuclear watchkeeper. Government are making. The figure of £5 billion is In our collective defence, NATO remains paramount. interesting because the shadow Defence Secretary also However, I share widespread concern that we are moving said today that it would be invidious in advance of a towards a two-tier alliance, with some players benefiting general election to try to work out what the requirement from the cover but not paying the premium. At next would be in personnel and equipment. It is therefore week’s meeting of Defence Ministers in Brussels, will difficult to work out how he came up with the £5 billion the Defence Secretary continue to press our allies to figure, even assuming it is correct. The isolation of the meet their proper financial responsibilities? Present at Opposition is increasingly apparent as even the United the meeting will be those who press for an increasing States reins in its defence spending to deal not with an EU defence identity as part of the security and defence incoherent defence budget but with a crippling federal policy. Naturally, that has nothing to do with defence, budget deficit. which only the UK and France come close to funding properly. Thomas Docherty: I think I am right in saying that The latest turn of the screw comes from a European the US is still increasing its defence spending, not Parliament resolution of 19 February 2009, which proposes cutting it. Is that correct? something called synchronised armed forces Europe. 499 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 500 Review Review SAFE is a beguiling but deeply ironic acronym. Under Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the SAFE, alarmingly, British servicemen would owe allegiance hon. Lady for notice of her point of order, and for to the supranational European Union. One of its contacting the Member’s office. Right hon. and hon. cheerleaders, the German Foreign Minister, Guido Members are responsible for their own comments but Westerwelle, told the Munich security conference in should make every effort to ensure that they are accurate, February 2010: and I am absolutely certain that the attentive Whip on “The long-term goal is the establishment of a European army the Treasury Bench will bring the point of order to the under full parliamentary control.” Member’s attention. Of course, that has nothing to do with improving our collective security; instead, it draws from a hubristic, 4.30 pm maladroit pan-European political project that has brought us to the brink of economic catastrophe. The immediate Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): The concern about SAFE is that it would quite deliberately greatest damage to our nation over the past 10 years has remove the capability of the two European nation states not been done by the enemy: it has been done by still able to act independently to project force worldwide ourselves. And it has not been done, contrary to what on their own, or with partners of their choosing, in we often believe, by what we have not done. It is not the pursuit of the national interest. result of the money we failed to raise, the equipment we failed to purchase or the actions we failed to take. The Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Does my hon. Friend damage that we have inflicted on ourselves comes from agree that it is somewhat ironic that those calling for a our decisions to get involved in theatres such as Iraq, European army and united European defence are the and Helmand in Afghanistan. very people who refuse to pay up for it in their own The gap, the fundamental problem, with the SDSR—it country? was true of John Nott’s review in 1982 and Lord Robertson’s review in 1998 and it is true of our review today—is a Dr Murrison: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. It gap of strategy. It is a gap of thought. We are spending may not be by chance that the Germans are chief over £30 billion a year on a military without developing among those who wish to shelter under a European the policy and strategic capability to decide where we defence force, because Germany, of all our allies and are prepared to be involved, and what, fundamentally, friends, is the country one can most easily identify as a our national interests should be. Our national interest is major economy that does not pay its way in terms of dependent, above all, on two things: an understanding our collective security, which it so obviously enjoys. of what our priorities are and how to match our resources When the Minister is in Brussels, I very much hope that to those priorities, and an understanding of our limits— he will do everything he can to put pressure on the what we cannot do. Germans in particular to make a fuller contribution to our collective defence; but it has to be through NATO, What is striking about Lord Robertson’s report is not through the European Union. The lesson of the that there he is, in 1998, making confident statements past few years and the difficulty with the European about Britain’s future and the risks it faces—confident Union in respect of our economic position—the greatest statements about weapons of mass destruction and existential threat the UK faces at the moment—is that terrorism—but the proof of the pudding was in the we cannot rely on Europe for our security.Our cornerstone eating. We then launched ourselves into Iraq and Helmand, has always been NATO and it will continue to be. and in doing so took on issues that did not match our national interest. Mr Gerald Howarth: I assure my hon. Friend that What is the solution to that problem? The solution, whenever I represent Her Majesty’s Government in first, is to understand that our model of policy making Brussels I clearly make the point that NATO is a is at fault. The military, rightly, have a very traditional cornerstone of our defence and that other nations should view of policy making. They imagine that politicians jolly well divvy up in their own defence. define the national interest, the Foreign Office creates the policy framework and the generals advise and then Dr Murrison: I thank the Minister. Recent activity in implement the policy—perhaps giving operational advice the south Atlantic has shown us that the threat from a on how to implement that strategy. The reality is, of Government playing to a national gallery has to be course, quite different. The world has changed. We need addressed. to recognise that; the military need to recognise that; Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The the SDSR needs recognise that. The reality is that hon. Gentleman’s time is up. although in constitutional theory it is the politicians who make the decision and the Foreign Office that Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): On a point of order, provides the policy framework, in practice the strength, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have informed the office of the the authority and the charisma of the senior military is hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) that I higher today than it has been at any time in British or intend to raise this point of order. This morning at American history. business questions, the hon. Gentleman told the House To see that, one needs to look only at the experience that Ken Livingstone intends to overturn the ban on of President Obama dealing with General McChrystal drinking alcohol on public transport in London. That is in 2009. What, in effect, happened is that McChrystal simply untrue; Ken Livingstone will not overturn the issued a report in 2009, saying he needs 40,000 more ban on drinking alcohol on public transport. I wonder, troops. The President of the United States attempted to Mr Deputy Speaker, whether you have had any indication respond. He went into a nine-week consultation process, whatsoever that the hon. Member for Harrow East at the end of which, entirely predictably, he could do intends to come to the Chamber to correct the record. only exactly what his General requested, but a little bit 501 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 502 Review Review [Rory Stewart] In other words, in the absence of a real civilian check, the military are going to have to provide that check less—give him 35,000 instead of 40,000. And yet the themselves. assessment was disastrous. In the small print, General Why is that relevant to the strategic defence review? McChrystal says, “I need 40,000 troops but my strategy Without that form of analysis and intelligence and will never work unless the Afghan Government sort policy work, we will not have a definition of our national their act out. And by the way, I, General McChrystal, interest. Without a definition of our national interest, am not responsible for sorting out the Afghan Government; we cannot have a strategy. Without a strategy, there is that will be done by somebody else. It will be done by no point having a strategic defence review. the State Department. It will be done by USAID.” Yet nobody appears to be able in the system to challenge him. Why not? Although theoretically the politicians 4.38 pm have the decisive ability and the policy is owned by Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): It is a great pleasure someone else, nobody is going to face down a man with to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and a row of medals on his chest who has served six years on The Border (Rory Stewart), to whom I listened with the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan and who says, great interest because he has such vast experience in “This is what I need.” No Democrat President and, I these matters. would suggest, no politician in Britain today would have the authority and confidence to disagree with such Before I had the honour to be elected to this House, I a man. was involved with others in setting up a business in Sierra Leone. We were able to do that only because the What is the solution to that problem? It is that we British Army had been involved in bringing stability spend more money and invest far more in a policy and peace to that country, and I give credit to those in capacity whose primary function is to keep us out of the previous Government who made the decision to get wars—to make it more difficult for us to engage in involved, and to all those who took part in the operation. disastrous and costly adventures of the sort we have It is clear that the conditions prevailing in Sierra Leone seen in the past decade. That means, above all, investing today were made possible only by British action. in the Foreign Office, which needs to remember that its In setting up a business in that country, it was great to function is fundamentally policy and politics. It is about be able to offer jobs to former child soldiers, who could understanding exactly what is happening in a particular then, instead of terrorising their neighbourhoods, earn country, so that if a Prime Minister were to suggest, for a living. Is not one of the great benefits that the British example, that he wished to invade Iraq, we would not armed forces are able to bring, as a result of the have the situation we had last time in which not a single intervention in Sierra Leone, that experience of training senior serving diplomat in the Foreign Office in London that enables a country to live at peace, and enables disagreed in any way with the Prime Minister’s statement. people who were involved in murder to start to earn a That happened because we did not know anything; we living and look after their families? had not invested in knowing anything. We did not have diplomats on the ground and our intelligence assets I want to concentrate my remarks on the connection were very limited. of our armed forces with their local communities—with the towns, cities and counties in which they are based. The military imagine, quite rightly, that they exist in a Despite the major changes that the SDSR has brought context in which other people will disagree with them. about, and will continue to bring about, these connections They feel embattled and that they have to challenge must be maintained and strengthened. Never was that civilians—that they have to thump the table and demand brought home to me more clearly than in two recent things. They assume that somehow Prime Ministers or homecoming parades through my town of Stafford by diplomats will push back against them, but that push-back the Queen’s Royal Lancers and the 3rd Mercians, the does not happen. We could help not only by having Staffords, on their return from their tours of Afghanistan more political focus and more diplomats and embassies in the last 12 months or so. Both those regiments have focused precisely on these issues, but by insisting that strong connections with Staffordshire, and many people every batch of young diplomats has at least one or two from the county and the city of Stoke-on-Trent serve in members of the foreign service who are posted to the them. They paraded through many other towns in the military for one or two years at the beginning of their area—I see my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield careers, not posted to staff college at the age of 40. (Michael Fabricant) nodding in agreement. The people They should be sent on the equivalent of a gap-year of Stafford turned out in great numbers for those parades, commission or national service, so that we begin to and showed just how much they respect the service and redevelop what we had instinctively in the 1950s, ‘60s sacrifice of the men and women of our armed forces. and ‘70s, which is civilians who understand both the There are many ways to strengthen the bonds with strengths and the weaknesses of the military. communities, and I want to touch on just three. The The military in the meantime need to understand that first is to integrate local bases more into the community— that context does not yet exist and that they cannot while respecting, of course, security considerations. In expect the Foreign Office to have the confidence or the Stafford, we are fortunate to be the home of 22 Signal resources to push back against them. General McChrystal, Regiment and part of the tactical supply wing of the to return to the less controversial ground of the United Royal Air Force, and we eagerly anticipate the coming States, should be producing reports saying not, “I need of two more signal regiments from Germany from 40,000 troops to win,” but, “Unless somebody sorts out 2015. The people of Stafford recognise the great benefits the Afghan Government, and I see no evidence that that that will bring to our town: first, the coming of anybody’s going to do that, there’s no point giving me more servicemen and women and their families, who 40,000 troops because I’m not going to be able to win.” will receive a very warm welcome; secondly, the expansion 503 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 504 Review Review of schools to meet the needs of their children; and with the young people from Wolverhampton, Walsall, thirdly, the prospect that those skilled men and women Stoke-on-Trent, Cannock—as I am sure the Minister will wish to stay in the area when they retire from the knows—and Stafford, they said that the ACF gave armed forces and contribute to our emerging ICT industry them purpose and opportunities that they would not and others. There are other opportunities for joint otherwise have considered or had the chance to take up. working too: shared sports facilities, advanced skills We must never underestimate the value of the cadets. training, housing and health. We must never forget that Last year they jointly celebrated their 150th anniversary, the prime duty of our armed forces is the security of the and their popularity is as great as it has ever been, with United Kingdom, but no small part of the stability of some 130,000 cadets in 3,200 units across the UK—no the UK is the fact that our armed forces are seen as part doubt in every constituency—and 25,000 adult volunteers of the communities that they serve. giving up many hours of precious free time each week Secondly, there is the role of our reserve forces, and I to help young people develop skills and make the most pay tribute to the number of right hon. and hon. of their lives. I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Members of this House who serve, many of whom are State to do everything possible to support the cadet here today. I also pay tribute to the work of my right forces. Their work is very much part of the big society, hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire and shares the values of the national citizenship service (Mr Arbuthnot) and his team for the vital work that by bringing together young people from all walks of life they have done in the Future Reserves 2020 study. He and all backgrounds. deserves great credit for that. Whether it is through the regular forces or the reserves, The increase in the proportion of our reserve strength the bonds between our armed forces and the communities to 30% of the total is a significant change, but as the from which they come or in which they are based must review recognises, it will simply not be possible without not be underestimated. These bonds, along with the both modernisation and funding. That is why I welcome courage and commitment of our armed forces, are the the Government’s commitment to better integration cornerstones of the respect in which they are held. Our with the regular force and increased funding, which I cadet forces have a different but equally valuable role: had understood was £1.5 billion, but I was delighted to offering our young people opportunities to learn and hear the Secretary of State mention a figure of £1.8 billion work together that they would not otherwise have. in his speech. Several hon. Members rose— Dr Murrison: Does my hon. Friend agree that not only are our reserve forces head to head cheaper than Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I am members of the regular armed forces, which is important reducing the time limit on speeches to seven minutes. in the current environment, but also that other countries have far more reserves as a proportion of their total 4.46 pm defence capacity? Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Jeremy Lefroy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, as North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) on initiating always. I believe that in the United States it is at least the debate, and the Backbench Business Committee on 30%, if not 35%, yet here it is less than 20%, so we are choosing it as today’s topic. I was particularly pleased well under the average, even compared with fine armed that my right hon. Friend started the debate by emphasising forces such as those of our NATO allies in the United the unpredictability of future conflicts, a point States and elsewhere. re-emphasised in the strongest possible terms by my But as the review points out, we must use the specialist hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray). skills that our reserve forces have. In the proposed Having listened to the Secretary of State for Defence rationalisation of the defence estate, we must ensure today, I believe that what he is trying to do is create a that we do not to lose the close connection between the balanced budget without sacrificing the aim of having reserves and the communities from which they come. the balanced forces that we need. That is a necessary The Government’s response to the review points out approach, and we should resist the temptation to say that connection as one of the benefits of increasing the that we ought to sacrifice particular capabilities forever, size of the reserves. One way to do that is for the simply because we cannot conceive at this moment of Ministry of Defence to work closely with local councils going to war, or entering some lesser conflict, unless we and councillors throughout the changes that are being are in coalition with allies. made, so that they are kept fully informed. I was impressed by some of the remarks made by the Finally, I wish to say a few words about the cadets. I hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who pointed have been fortunate enough since my election to spend out the gaps in capability resulting from the cancellation some time with the Army and RAF cadets in my of the Nimrod MRA4. In a later intervention she constituency and my county. Last month I joined the referred to the problems relating to the loss of fixed-wing hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) aircraft carrier aircraft capability. If we acknowledge at the winter camp of the Staffordshire and West Midlands the certainty that we will be unable to predict the vast North Army Cadet Force at Swynnerton in the constituency majority of cases in which we shall need to send our of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash). armed forces to war, and couple that with a restricted What impressed me most was the commitment of the budget, which means that we will often have to choose 500 or so adult volunteers, the full-time staff and the either what is commonly and derogatorily called salami- young people. It was a bitterly cold and icy weekend, slicing, or abandoning certain capabilities permanently, but the full programme went ahead when other I believe that the salami-slicing approach, unpleasant organisations might well have cancelled. When I spoke though it is, is broadly the correct one—because we do 505 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 506 Review Review [Dr Julian Lewis] Dr Lewis: I thank the Minister for those very generous comments, but we are very short of time, so I am now not know when, where, against whom or how we will going to truncate my remarks. have to go to war. We cannot predict which of the vast I shall say just a brief word about the masterly range of military capabilities that we currently have exposition by my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith we will need to use. Therefore, in straitened economic and The Border (Rory Stewart). He always grips the circumstances when we cannot afford to spend as much House with his expositions, but the trouble is that I do on defence as we would like to, and as indeed we feel in not always find that I can fully endorse their contents, our hearts we ought to, we must nevertheless preserve even though I am fascinated by the elegance and fluency what are called “nucleus” forces, which give us the with which he advances them. I share his view, and potential when the need arises to expand on the capabilities always have, that the micro-management of the country that we have retained, even though at any given time of Afghanistan is a mistake on the part of the NATO those capabilities have seemed to be inadequate. powers—but, whatever happens in America, I find it a In that connection, if Ministers are working within little difficult to recognise the idea of generals in this an economic envelope—that is not the best terminology country being somewhat out of control, and pursuing a to use, but it has been used today so I shall continue military agenda with the Foreign Office trailing in their with it—in times of peace, we can all understand that, wake. My only point, which I will be happy to discuss but, whenever we end up in a serious armed conflict, with my hon. Friend afterwards, is that when the archives those economic considerations are always relegated to about the decision to go into Helmand are opened, we second place, and Ministers simply have to put aside will probably find that that decision was ultimately considerations of affordability in favour of the absolute taken—and, I suspect, mainly driven—by politicians necessity of taking the measures which that conflict rather than by generals or diplomats. I may be wrong; situation requires them to take. history will have to decide. It is now just over 30 years since my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), a gentleman 4.55 pm called Councillor Tony Kerpel, a former chief of staff to a former chairman of the Conservative party, and I Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): It is always a set up a coalition. It was not quite the sort of coalition great pleasure to follow my coalitionist hon. Friend the that we have today, which, as hon. Members may know, Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). I congratulate is so close to my heart; it was the Coalition for Peace my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Select Committee Through Security, and its purpose was to fight for the on organising the debate. I also congratulate the Secretary changeover from Polaris to the first generation of Trident of State, not only on taking his place today but on and for the deployment of cruise missiles in Britain so making a speech last December at the Royal United that eventually we would be able to negotiate a deal, Services Institute about the importance of sustained which we did in 1987, to get rid of intermediate nuclear armed forces. That was very powerful. forces on both sides of the iron curtain in Europe. Rather counter-intuitively, I also congratulate the I am therefore very happy to reassure the hon. Member shadow Secretary of State on his rather temperate for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), in speech. Although he is not here, I advise him in all his absence, that I do not feel at all proprietorial about candour not to be too kind and friendly to the Government, the arguments in favour of the nuclear deterrent. I am because hungry hounds are snapping at his heels. As he absolutely delighted when people such as the hon. Member admitted himself, it is unwise to incur the wrath of the for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), who I know shadow Chancellor. had not intended to speak today, rise to their feet and I want to focus on one particular aspect of the defend it with such vigour. strategic defence and security review. We have heard I was pleased, but I shall look very closely at Hansard from colleagues across the House about the importance tomorrow to see exactly what the shadow Secretary of of the continuous at sea nuclear deterrent. We have also State said when I asked him to clarify and confirm his had a tour d’horizon of the 1930s, the foreign service party’s commitment to the renewal of Trident, and in and boots on the ground in Afghanistan. I hope that particular to the successor generation of submarines. I when Ministers go back to the MOD they will also invite my hon. Friend the Minister, given that the Secretary reflect on the importance within the SDSR of energy of State did not refer to it, to clarify our own position security. on that very subject. The SDSR and our energy supply are intimately connected. A decade ago Britain was self-sufficient in Mr Gerald Howarth: Prompted by my hon. Friend, I energy; in just eight, nine or 10 years’ time, 80% of our am delighted to say, as he will know, that in the SDSR energy will be imported. The same thing is happening and in our Trident value-for-money review the Government around the world. China, Malaysia and India have a committed to renewing the independent nuclear deterrent: massive appetite for energy. China consumes 12% of the submarine-based, continuously at sea, patrolling. That world’s energy—a 25% increase in the past 10 years. programme is being taken forward. Initial gate was in That means that scarce resources, which we tend to May last year, and I assure him that all the work is find in the most unstable and unreliable regions and continuing and in progress. If I may, I also take this regimes in the world, are becoming scarcer. Petro powers opportunity to salute my hon. Friend, my hon. Friend such as Russia recognise that; they are prepared to use the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), and Tony their energy resources as the provisional wing of their Kerpel on the then coalition, because I supported it at diplomatic and military capability.Russia had an argument the time and am delighted to be in government supporting with the Ukraine a year or two ago, so Russia reduced it now. the energy supply to that country. That meant that the 507 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 508 Review Review energy supply to parts of Europe was reduced by a I remind the House that if that does not happen, we third. That situation has a significant impact on our could find ourselves in the same position as the Soviet strategic partners in Europe, and we should make sure Union in the 1980s, when it suddenly ran out of money that such considerations are factored into our SDSR. and was unable to deliver the defence capability that it Terrorists also recognise the importance of energy. espoused. Look at the strait of Hormuz: every day—today, tomorrow As we heard in the last debate, 50% of our trade is and for the rest of this year—14 supertankers carrying with the EU. I remind hon. Members that the EU is not 17 million barrels of oil, which is 20% of the world’s doing incredibly well at the moment as far as growth is daily supply and 35% of the ongoing seagoing supply, concerned. I therefore think that we need to look to go through the strait. That is a massive tempting target other countries, such as China, Russia and India, where for terrorists. I hope that the MOD recognises the there are potential markets. To do that, we have to importance of protecting those transport routes and ensure that we have decent trade routes and that they diversifying oil supply so that those tempting targets do remain open. not dislocate the energy supply of the world. The fuel As the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and that goes through the strait of Hormuz goes largely to Devonport, I am delighted to be able to speak up for the the east, to India and China—countries that are absolutely Royal Navy and 3 Commando Brigade, both of which essential to the restitution of the economy of the world. are based in my constituency. I thank Ministers for It is important that that particular part of the world, committing the Government to ensuring that Plymouth and other choke points, are properly defended. That remains a principal naval strategic port. That is very should be factored into our SDSR. important. Lastly, let us think about refining capacity. As the Keeping our trade routes open is important for the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) said during import and export of goods and will be fundamental Energy questions today, outside Saudi Arabia there is for growth. As an island nation, we are dependent on precious little extra refining capacity. That presents sea routes. It is incredibly important to have a strong another tempting target for terrorists. Osama bin Laden Navy with good frigates and submarines, and aircraft said that refineries represent the hinges on which the carriers when they come forward. I pay tribute to the economy of the world hangs. I trust that the Minister Royal Navy and 3 Commando Brigade in my constituency. will reflect on that and make sure that in our SDSR the They have worked incredibly hard to ensure that we protection of refineries and the development of extra have that security. We must only look at the piracy refining capacity are on our agenda. situation to see how well that is going. Yesterday, at the Select Committee on Energy and Plymouth is a global centre for marine science, Climate Change, the Minister of State, Department of engineering and research. The Royal Navy is a key part Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member of that. It is important that Plymouth maintains its for Wealden (Charles Hendry) said something that struck global reputation for that. As many of my hon. Friends many Members powerfully. He said that the Government will know, this year we are commemorating the death of would not compromise on the protection of our energy Captain Scott in the Antarctic, which took place 100 years security. I hope that Ministers in the Ministry of Defence ago. I am grateful that there has been a great deal of will recognise the importance of what he said, and interest in that subject. We need to ensure that Plymouth complement it. They must be sure that the structures remains the home of the Type 23 frigates and that when that we built after the second world war and refined in the decision is eventually is made, we have our fair share the cold war to protect ourselves and our energy supply of the Type 26s when they become available. are still fit for purpose in the hot politics of the 21st century. We have heard suggestions that there may be problems As we have heard from colleagues from across the north of the border up in Scotland. It would be helpful Chamber today, our strategic defence now has two if the Minister spent a little time telling us what alternatives competing and potentially conflicting demands: to deal we would have should the Scottish Executive and the with our old opponents such as Russia, and to deal with Scottish people seek independence. He can rest assured the new formless and stateless enemies such as al-Qaeda. that should the Scots be in the process of thinking that I hope that when they consider the SDSR and energy they may not want the nuclear deterrent or nuclear policy, the Secretary of State and his team will ensure submarines, we in Plymouth are ready to pick up the that our approaches to those two issues complement baton and would be happy to open negotiations to try each other and are not in conflict. to ensure that we have them.

5.1 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Mr Andrew Robathan): I do not have the opportunity (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me of winding up today, but I can say that we welcome my in this debate. I congratulate the Chairman of the hon. Friend’s offer. Defence Committee on getting the debate going successfully. This debate feels a little like déjà vu for me, because Oliver Colvile: I thank the Minister. my maiden speech was about the future of the strategic I was somewhat dismayed earlier this week when I defence and security review. I fully understand the heard the news about the Defence Committee’s report budgetary constraints that the Ministry of Defence and found out how many people had left the military faces. Although I said in my maiden speech that we and the civil service. Somewhere along the line, we have needed to control public expenditure, I also argued that to ensure that people who have served in the military we needed to ensure that there was enough money in the and picked up good and worthwhile skills are able to defence budget to deliver the requirements that we had. use them in employment elsewhere. When my father, 509 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 510 Review Review [Oliver Colvile] expertise—not consultants but dedicated people with collective responsibility, continuity and a real stake in who served in the Navy as a professional sailor, having seeing the problems solved. The civil service cannot do gone to Dartmouth at the age of 14, left as a signalman, that in the traditional way, which underlines the weakness he was able to go and get a job as head of outside of putting it into a dominant position on the Defence broadcasting at Rediffusion Television. He was member Board, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough of the Institution of Electrical Engineers, and he did (Mr Leigh) pointed out. not have to take exams, or anything like that, in order to The Chief of the Defence Staff should build the new prove himself. In those days, it was possible to transfer team for the Secretary of State, but he would still need and use such skills. If our military are to get the best to monitor it closely. It needs external sources of ideas jobs that they possibly can, they will need to use their and expertise, and it must explore how the MOD can be training and backgrounds. If we are able to deliver on enabled to adapt and evolve using its own resources so that and to make them feel valued because of the work that it can generate and regenerate the forms of power that they have done, we will be in a much stronger that the UK, and indeed Europe, need in this rapidly position. changing world. That requires a recreation of the country’s I am keen to ensure that we in Plymouth are in a competitive stance, just as the US’s competitive stance position to look after the defence of our country so that ensures its technological and industrial dominance. The when Drake’s drum eventually begins to beat—although Secretary of State should involve others from Whitehall I hope it never happens—we can answer the call. and Parliament, from the City and commerce, and from other like-minded defence ministries and industries. We 5.7 pm cannot rely wholly on analysis by US organisations such as RAND. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): The strategic defence and security review is having a There are similar problems in our defence industry. significant long-term impact on the UK’s defence posture How much industrial research and development capacity and on our ability to deter aggression and to shape the has been lost in the past 15 years? Does anybody know? global strategic environment to reflect UK national With such a small budget, it no longer makes sense to interests, and yet we still aspire to a global role. The have prime contractors. The more we use them, the less Government argue that they have established an adaptable adaptable and the less able to reduce costs we will be. posture for UK defences, but the loss of whole capabilities Reliance on them has proved no substitute for the such as carrier strike and maritime reconnaissance, and MOD as an intelligent customer. The UK has always the paring back of virtually everything else, will leave been good at small, and we should exploit that advantage the UK able to mount only limited operations of limited by harnessing the networks of small businesses that are scale. After Afghanistan, numbers in the British Army truly innovative and inventive but currently find it impossible will be further cut to 87,000, or perhaps even 84,000. to get their ideas into the MOD and the armed forces. Even the brigade-plus we currently deploy in Helmand—a The new equipment programme must reflect what we fighting force of just 1,500 men—will be impossible to need and can afford, which will depend on the capacity sustain other than for short durations. Libya was a to generate what we need when it is needed. The MOD success, and that reflected luck and political daring on faces huge challenges, and the reconstitution and the part of our political leaders, as well as the extraordinary regeneration of the previously extant force is no longer inventiveness and resilience of our armed forces personnel. an option. We have used up our force and cannot However, that does not prove that the SDSR is a replace it. The only viable option is a new concept of success. responsiveness, and it is time to think bravely and The question is what should be done now. As the boldly. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State United States has just announced a new, leaner defence put it in his recent speech to the Atlantic Council: policy, leaving us in Europe more exposed, the world is “Necessity drives innovation—and it breaks down barriers…With not becoming safer. Clearly, without money, we must budgets so tight, Allies need to revisit approaches and ideas that start thinking. I was grateful to hear my hon. Friend the might previously have seemed politically unacceptable.” Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) That must apply at home as well as abroad. I was extol the virtues of strategic thinking. To date, the encouraged by the tone of his speech today, and I hope fundamental failures at the Ministry of Defence have that the MOD is working towards those goals. been intellectual, not technical, and changing the intellectual dimension does not need to cost a lot or require new institutions. The MOD needs to demonstrate new strategy 5.13 pm and new operational concepts. There has been no real attempt yet to change what the MOD does. Trying to do Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I start the same as before on half the budget will fail. Less of by declaring my interest as a member of the reserve the same will not work, because we no longer deploy forces. critical mass. Nor can we solve the problem merely by Are we sufficiently well defended? For an answer, we doing things better. might do worse than refer to the Prime Minister’s We need a “Hammond review”, quietly to start to remarks to the Liaison Committee last year. He said build capacity and to think about how to do things that if the question was whether the UK was differently at low cost. That approach is alien to MOD “a full spectrum defence power, I would answer that literally by culture and the defence industries, and it requires new saying yes, because I think if you look…across the piece, you take people and new lead contractors. My right hon. Friend a Navy that has got hunter-killer submarines, that has a nuclear the Secretary of State should create a new, competent, deterrent that we are renewing, that has two of the most modern imaginative, trustworthy team with real technical and up-to-date aircraft carriers coming down the track; if you 511 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 512 Review Review look at our Air Force, that has got the Typhoon, one of the most friend or foe—with a moderately priced pair of binoculars capable and successful aircraft that anyone has anywhere in the and the inclination to look could have discovered how world”. many Harpoon missiles were on Westminster. At that point my right hon. Friend the Member for The MOD must develop a mechanism properly to North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman plan, acquire and monitor ordnance stocks. No such of the Defence Committee, interrupted: mechanism exists. As I have raised that point in the “Prime Minister, everyone knows what we’ve got.” Committee, with Ministers and on the Floor of the Indeed we do, and we know what we have not got, too. House, I would like to see evidence that it is being “Coming down the track” means “not here yet”. I am addressed. reassured by the excellent work on the Type 26 of the I would also like greater recognition of our dependence Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend on carrier strike. As the Foreign Secretary mentioned the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), who is earlier this week with regard to HMS Argyll’s passage responsible for procurement, and by the fact that the through the strait of Hormuz, we currently rely on our Prime Minister speaks enthusiastically about the carriers, allies—in that instance in the form of the USS Abraham but by his own definition of full spectrum capability Lincoln. It is apparent, therefore, that when we say we Britain currently, although unavoidably and understandably, do not need carrier strike for the next decade, we mean comes up short. we need it but hope to use someone else’s. We inherited a catastrophic mess at the MOD when That might be all very well when our interests align we came into government—I am sorry that we do not with those of our allies, but what about when they do have many Opposition Members still in the Chamber not? The Prime Minister has rightly taken a robust line to hear me say that. Tough decisions had to be made to on Argentine pretensions over the sovereignty of the clean up that mess, leading to the capability gap and Falklands. The US Administration takes quite a different the challenging task of regenerating that capability. We view, regarding the UK administration of the islands as must succeed in doing that, but I am increasingly concerned “de facto”and taking “no position regarding sovereignty”. that we risk failure. We are encouraged to work things out with Argentina If Britain wants to live up to her billing as a leading “through normal diplomatic channels”. If it came to it, nation, we must perform like one. The world still looks one suspects that requests for carrier cover would fall to Britain for leadership—as in the recent action in on deaf ears. Libya—and it is incumbent on us to be ready to meet Equally, although one must recognise that while flying those calls in our own national interest. The Royal Navy sorties from Norfolk for a time was the only way to halt gives us global reach. It allows us to be present anywhere Gaddafi’s murderous advances in Libya, it was expensive. in the world within 12 miles off any coast with impunity. Had the Ark Royal not been decommissioned, it is It keeps food in our supermarkets and the fuel flowing unthinkable that she would not have been sent on so we can distribute and cook it. Our island nation Ellamy. Had we flown sorties from a carrier in the depends on the Navy for its very survival, an obvious Mediterranean rather than from an airfield in East point not often recognised by Departments of State or Anglia, they would have been more frequent and more parliamentarians—present company excepted. responsive, and the need to return to base without Recognition of that fact does not require one to hark dropping a bomb would have been less of a waste of back to the days when Britain’s carrier fleet numbered time and money. 55 ships, but it means we need to increase the size of the I raise those issues not to chastise the Government current surface fleet with the carrier strike and the Type for the SDSR—they had to close the gap in the defence 26 combat ship. It requires us also to ensure that those budget—but to show our dependence on carrier strike platforms are properly supplied, so that they can be at force. The Prime Minister has said that carriers are their most flexible. necessary for a nation to have full military capability, We must stop hollowing out capability. I told the which means every day of every week, all year round. MOD permanent secretary at the Defence Committee Accepting the need for carriers is to accept that we must that some ships were sent to Operation Ellamy and have both Queen Elizabeth class ships in operation—at elsewhere with dangerously hollowed-out capacity. HMS minimum, one on, one off. Westminster had only 10% of her ordnance, or, to put it another way, only two shots in the barrel. In response, Mr Leigh: Does my hon. Friend recall that the US the permanent secretary spoke of “layered defence” and Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, referred recently to “other capabilities that we had in terms of submarines…and the Falkland Islands as “the Malvinas”, therefore implicitly …aircraft”. giving a nod in the direction of Argentina? My hon. She also said that it was Friend is right that we could in no shape or form “absolutely an operational decision on whether it is safe” depend on the Americans if there were any threat to send Westminster. against the Falklands. Were they taken, without a carrier, we could never take them back. “Layered defence” is all very well, but I wonder whether the Westminster’s 190 crew would not have felt more secure if they had the means to defend themselves Penny Mordaunt: If someone had an argument about rather than relying on others. It might have been an the sovereignty of an eastern state, I am quite sure we “operational decision”, but would we not put the people would have a much more robust response from our making such decisions in a far more comfortable position nearest ally. if they knew that ships had a more appropriate complement The cost and specification of the new carriers has of missiles? I anticipate that the MOD would answer been much derided. One estimate is that they could be that missile numbers are secret, but they are not. Anyone— as much as £3.1 billion more expensive than planned. 513 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 514 Review Review [Penny Mordaunt] of those campaigns were over very quickly, but the lack of an unconditional surrender meant that we then got I have heard many an “amusing” conversation in this into protracted stabilisation and peacekeeping operations. place about the decks being too short for aircraft to I was saddened to visit Sandhurst not long ago and take-off and the possibility of sailors being burnt to a find that it had only just introduced courses in CIMIC— crisp by aircraft engines, along with other such Bird and civil-military co-operation—which are required to enable Fortune material. We laugh, while blindly heading for a the military to liaise and work with civilian counterparts, greater folly: spending such a sum, only to deny ourselves NGOs and the Department for International Development the capability that it should have brought. If we end up in those other operations, which start in the aftermath with just one operational carrier, we will have wasted £5 of the war fighting. That is what we now need to get billion over the initial estimates, yet for months of every good at; that is what was missing in Afghanistan and year we will be without cover. If our enemies strike Iraq. Had the Labour Government held a defence review, during an off-period, the British people will ask what those issues would have been identified. However, they that hefty final bill has actually achieved. Thanks to the did not, and we failed to take the opportunity to last Government, £3 billion has been needlessly spent fundamentally modernise our armed forces. I think the on carrier strike force. Under this Government, let us Chilcot inquiry will reflect that. It will show that our not have £7 billion pointlessly spent. armed forces found themselves in two campaigns with the wrong numbers and the wrong equipment, and 5.20 pm without a clear strategy. Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I am I firmly agree with my hon. Friend the Member for grateful to catch your eye, Mr Deputy Speaker. Like Penrith and The Border about our ability to work more others, I declare my interest as a member of the Territorial cohesively with other Departments. We need to be able Army. There seem to be enough of us here to form a to work with DFID and the Foreign and Commonwealth small platoon, which would perhaps be interesting, Office to ensure that our strategy—the purpose of sending although such a platoon would come only from this side our military into danger—is absolutely crystal clear. It of the Chamber. Indeed, there is a noticeable absence of is clear from General Petraeus’s book on counter-insurgency support for today’s debate from the Opposition Benches— that it is not enough simply to defeat the enemy; we now [Interruption]—other than from the right hon. Member have to win over the hearts and minds of the locals—the for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), who has just walked friends that we are trying to support. into the Chamber. The triangle consisting of security at the top, then I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for governance, followed by development and reconstruction Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), as well as my has still not been developed. In Afghanistan, the security hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border aspects took far too long to get right. Huge questions (Rory Stewart), who, with his eloquent speech, raised still arise as to why we ended up in Helmand province the standard of this debate—we were getting into the anyway. Those of us who know the history of that weeds a little bit, talking about the tactics of the SDSR country will be aware of the treaty of Gandamak and rather than the strategy. We were starting to talk about the battle of Kandahar. Events such as those tell us that the individual bits of kit that we enjoy, like or are in love we are not particularly welcome in that patch of with—we are always quick to quote a retired general or Afghanistan, given the history there. There might have admiral saying, “This is exactly what we need”—rather been other places in which we could have been more than stepping back and asking what the strategy is and strategically helpful. Lessons have been learned from where we fit in the bigger picture. Fundamentally, the those engagements and put into practice in Libya, where SDSR is about how we protect our people, our allies, there has been a far more coherent effort, not only our economy and our infrastructure—indeed, our way within our own Departments but in regard to whom we of life—from the potential risks that we face. It is about work with, including our NATO allies. how, on occasions working with our allies, we apply the instruments of power to influence and shape the Labour missed a massive opportunity to understand global environment, and how potential tactical threats what exactly our military are expected to do. Our armed affect us. forces were placed in danger and given kit that was out of date. I mentioned Snatch Land Rovers in an intervention. The shadow Secretary of State did not want to get Too often at that time, other bits of kit were thrown at partisan when I intervened on him, but it is important the military for testing, to see whether they would work. to reflect on what happened over the last decade. Not They included vehicles such as the Jackal, the Cougar, only did the previous Government not have an SDSR, the Vector and the Ridgeback. Eventually, the Mastiff which was bad time management, but not having one came along and proved to be the most suitable for use in affected our military’s ability to perform. During that those operations. Things should not have had to work decade we saw the September 11 attacks, we were involved in that way, however. A security strategy could have in enormous campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq, and helped in that context. we had the July 2005 bombings. The type of threat changed, compared with the cold war stance that we Procurement errors have been made. The Nimrod has were used to. There were huge changes in operational been mentioned many times in the debate. The contract tactics too, with the introduction of drone warfare, for its development was signed in 1996, and it was due advances in missile systems and stealth technology—ways for delivery in 2003, yet not one aircraft ever received a to introduce force multipliers that did not exist before. certificate of airworthiness. The Sea Harriers have been The conduct of war also changed, with an emphasis on cut, which means that there is now no chance of us ever stabilisation operations as much as war fighting, as putting a carrier in. The existing Harriers do not have illustrated in Iraq and Afghanistan. The kinetic phases guns; they do not have the Mauser weapon systems. 515 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 516 Review Review They cannot carry the Brimstone or the Storm Shadow, I would also like to touch on plans to change the ratio yet those missiles were critical to the success of the of regulars to reserves from 80:20 to about 70:30. The action in Libya. reserves, who include many esteemed colleagues in the We get stuck with certain favourite bits of kit. The House, do a wonderful job, and I pay due respect to Apache is now in a new dimension. It travels at two them, but I believe, as do others, that the thinking thirds the speed of the Harrier and fires the Hellfire behind the proposal is seriously flawed. When budgets missile, which is just as potent as any of our other are tight, the integrity of the armed services must be weapons. We hear that the Falklands are under threat. maintained by the regulars. We simply do not have the We have an aircraft carrier there, so the base already money to spend on the reserves, as they do in America. exists, and it has the Typhoon and the Tornado. The Reserves are harder to recruit and retain, and expensive Argentines spend only £3 billion on their defence budget, to train. If thousands of troops return from Germany, compared with our £30 billion. I believe that we should where will we train our armed services? Even now the place the question of Argentina in a separate context in reserves in my constituency of South Dorset have a relation to the SDSR. It is a distraction from where we nightmare trying to find places to train because the are going. regulars get there first. Senior officers have told me that they would rather have more regulars for the same Finally, I should like to congratulate the Defence amount of money. team on what it is doing. I think that we are finally progressing— I turn to the ongoing redundancies. With nearly 3 million people out of work, is it wise to throw experienced Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. and highly valued servicemen and women out into the cold and potentially on to the welfare state? It simply cannot be. I genuinely believe that those who have not 5.27 pm served in the uniformed branch of our country, and that Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): It is a pleasure applies to most people in the House and, dare I say, all to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth the Cabinet—that is not a personal assault on them—simply East (Mr Ellwood). I, too, would like to pay tribute to do not understand its value. Quite apart from the my right hon. Friend the Member for North East wonderful job all those in uniform do, they are standard Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) and to the Backbench Business bearers for our local communities and contributors in Committee. many walks of life, especially when they return to civilian life. Having served, they give back so much. I am speaking on behalf of my constituents, but I am also speaking on behalf of the many who are serving in Much mention has been made of the gaping hole, up our armed forces who cannot speak for themselves. As to 2020 or thereabouts, that will exist in our defence has already been mentioned today, George Washington strategy. Not until then, we are told, will we have two once said: new aircraft carriers, supposedly, the planes to fly off “In time of peace, prepare for war.” them—as we have heard, we are not sure which planes they will be, whether they will be able to land or take I feel that that quote is rather pertinent, as we scrutinise off, or whether they can deliver the necessary armaments— the progress of the strategic defence and security review. the new fleet of Astute class submarines and six state- There is no doubt that a review was needed, but the of-the-art Type 45 destroyers. I will believe it all when I decisions that flowed from it have left our country see it. exposed and weakened, militarily and politically—the two go hand in hand. How can we possibly advance our In the meantime, the storm clouds are gathering—this peaceful cause, and protect our interests around the is not some dramatic statement; they are. The following world, if we do not have sufficient muscle to flex, and is not an exhaustive list. There is Iran. There is the Arab ultimately to use, when things go wrong, as history spring, as I and many others believe, turning wintry. shows they do. Yes, Labour left us with a £38 billion Even our recent triumph in Libya looks shaky. There is black hole. Yes, the Ministry of Defence was bloated. Nigeria and Yemen. There is the Falklands. There is Yes, the armed forces are top heavy and need rebalancing, Russia—unpredictable. There is China—empire building. and yes, procurement was out of control. Regrettably, North Korea remains a sinister enigma. In Europe—our however, the Treasury’s will has prevailed over that of allies—the German chancellor warns that “half a century the military. of peace in Europe” could end if the euro collapses. There is to be a loss of personnel. The Army is to lose Here at home—let us not forget good old Britain—Irish 7,000, and the Royal Air Force and the Navy 5,000 each, terrorism still erupts sporadically. On the mainland, we with a further 4,000 soldiers to go. That is a tragedy. In considered deploying troops on our streets to counter regard to our front-line troops being protected from the riots. cuts, we have been told that no one who is in receipt of What do we do? We disarm. But the truth is defence the operational allowance, preparing for deployment, spending must rise, not fall. It was 5% when I served, on post-deployment leave or recovering from injury will and it is now about 2.5%, as we have heard, and the face compulsory redundancy. Although that has been NATO minimum is 2%. It is our solemn duty in the followed to the letter, we know that, in some cases, House to protect our island, safeguard our dependent compulsory redundancies have followed the end of post- territories, and meet our NATO commitments. The deployment leave almost immediately. I should also like money must be found, and it can be. We squander to comment on the fact that some troops who are millions on overseas aid—I accept that charity must go currently preparing for deployment know that they are abroad, but not to the extent it does. There is our on the list for voluntary redundancy. How odd that massive contribution to the EU, and when we must be for them, fighting for their redundancy money. renegotiate—and we will—we will get back billions, I wonder what that does for morale on the battlefield. which we can then spend on things that this nation 517 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 518 Review Review [Richard Drax] Let us also praise those who provide leadership for the air, sea and army cadets. I am delighted to say that we needs. There are the many quangos that were going to have all three units in the garrison town of Colchester. be burned on the bonfire. Then there is the vast welfare I want to conclude, as others wish to speak, on the state. The list goes on. subject of the future of the Ministry of Defence police. Defence is a matter of priorities. I accept that, There are some 3,600 MDP officers and their headquarters economically, Departments must make cuts, but will are in Essex, in Wethersfield. Despite their highly trained our enemies look at this country and refrain from and specialised nature, the role of Ministry of Defence aggressive action because we face austere times and cut police is often not well understood by decision makers our defence capability? History shows that that is when and the wider general public. Indeed, under the previous our enemies will strike. Government, I went to the MOD to make a special plea on behalf of the Ministry of Defence police in the garrison town of Colchester and I could not get people 5.34 pm to understand the important role they played. As a Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): As the newest result, the number of MDPs in my constituency has member of the Defence Committee, I congratulate the gone from 30 to three. With the best will in the world, Chairman, my right hon. Friend the Member for North the Essex constabulary cannot plug the gap left by the East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), on setting the scene loss of 27 Ministry of Defence police officers. The for this excellent debate. I also endorse the comments MDP is facing major cuts to its budget and numbers as made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire part of the strategic defence and security review, with a (Mr Gray). potentially disastrous impact on national security. The In opposition, both the Conservatives and the Liberal Ministry of Defence must reconsider and I hope that Democrats criticised the Government because our armed the Defence Committee will help the Ministry of Defence forces were under strength and overstretched. I regret to realise that cutting the MOD police is not the brightest say that the coalition Government are making a bad of the ideas that it is considering. situation even worse. The morale of Her Majesty’s armed forces is not as good as it should be and among 5.39 pm the reasons for that low morale are poor conditions. John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): As a member of the I commend the previous Government, for example, Defence Committee, I welcome this opportunity to for what they did with the new Merville barracks in the contribute to the debate. Defence reform is a complex Colchester constituency, but I condemn them for their matter and it is not easy, in a few minutes, to encapsulate failure to upgrade the family accommodation sufficiently coherently and completely in an incisive contribution in 13 years. Even today, one can see it with single how one would move things forward. I say that to soldier’s accommodation. When the Defence Committee mitigate the disappointment when I sit down and to went to Catterick, we were shown level 4—perhaps it is reflect how difficult it is to reform a Department that called category 4—accommodation, which reminded has so much complexity hard-wired into its fabric. me very much of what we used to see in “Auf Wiedersehen, Much analysis and many reports on this issue have been Pet” when the work force decided to decorate the place. undertaken over the years and I do not want to use my The Army in Catterick got in paint and paint brushes time now to revisit controversial decisions on whether, and allowed the soldiers to determine their colour scheme if or when we will have an aircraft carrier or aircraft in the various bits of the barrack block. The colour carriers, or on the number of senior posts that will be variations included interesting combinations and the rationalised, or on how those decisions were taken. quality of the workmanship was variable. I do not think Neither do I want to examine the different reasons that that is the right way to treat our brave soldiers, nor armed forces personnel face a greater likelihood of is it right that soldiers’ families should continue to live compulsory redundancy than their civil service counterparts. in accommodation that is not what we would expect in The three points I wish to raise today concern culture, civilian life. accountability and the measurement of outcomes. We know that the size of the Army will go down and Regardless of what decisions are made about programmes we have been told today that the numbers will be the and the size and shape of the three services, it is in those lowest since the Crimea. The statistic I had was that three areas that lasting, effective and meaningful reform they were the lowest since the Boer war, Baden-Powell will be achieved. Many people will probably raise their and Mafeking. Whatever that number is, it is too small eyebrows at the mention of culture and think it is a soft forustohavearoleontheworldstage.Wehave and peripheral concern. They might think that the commitments. The Falkland Islands have been mentioned culture of the armed forces is well defined and focused, and I should like to endorse those who have pointed out so let me explain what I mean. that it is fortress Falklands now and that things are I have no doubt whatever that the sense of discipline, completely different from 30 years ago. I do not think service and mutual dependency is fully developed within we should get over-anxious. We obviously need to be the culture of the armed services, as is that brave alert, but we should not think that the Falklands in willingness to risk life and limb for country. However, 2012 are as they were in 1982. I am increasingly of the view, through all my different I pay tribute, as others have, to the Territorials and interactions with the armed services in the two years I reservists. Without them, we could not do what we do. have been in the House, that although in operational Without the 10% of the British Army that is not British, terms there is no doubt about how well the different it could not do what it does. We should pay tribute, in services work together, when it comes to taking decisions particular, to those people from the Commonwealth in the interests of UK defence at the strategic and nations who serve in Her Majesty’s three armed forces. policy level, individuals display an undue dependency 519 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 520 Review Review on their own service, department or section and the 5.46 pm affinities that go with them. Often, I feel that decisions Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I congratulate my on fundamental matters of reform are made on the right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire basis of the relative political skills of the senior individuals (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Defence Committee, involved. Until a culture exists that rewards and prizes on which I sit. His leadership is outstanding. fully at all levels the good of UK defence above other ingrained imperatives, lasting and successful reform will I want to talk about what might be the most important not happen. We cannot continue to pay lip service to thing: morale. As we all know, Napoleon called morale jointery from a structural and organisational chart the sacred flame—the thing that matters more than perspective but make no real investment in the mechanics anything else. He said that morale is to the physical as of decision making within the MOD. three is to one. When I was a captain, I used to teach leadership at Sandhurst and I could not quite understand The second issue I want to address is accountability. what he meant. Ten years later, when I was a British The Defence Committee’s report of just this week says military commander in Bosnia, people would ask that me—Serbs, Croats or Muslims—how many men I had “the MoD could not provide adequate audit evidence for over under my command. I would reply, “Lots. How many £5.2 billion worth of certain inventory and capital spares.” do you think?” They said, “Between 3,000 and 4,000.” My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr I had 800. Morale made the difference. Gray) referred to the Secretary of State appearing like High morale is definitely a force multiplier. It is not the chairman of an international company. quantifiable statistically, but we can feel it. My experience is clear. When we go into a unit, we can feel what Mr Gray: A very good one. morale is like from the way people talk, stand and behave. Let us be clear: the British armed forces have John Glen: Indeed, but what would happen in a the highest morale in the world on operations. Anyone business if such inventory could not be accounted for so who has visited our troops in Afghanistan can see that. that for the fifth year the financial director had to Wherever British soldiers go in the world, their morale qualify the accounts? My gallant Defence Committee is high on operations. I am worried about what happens colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham when they are not on operations. (Bob Stewart), recently told me he had once been severely In all the years I have been involved with the Army, reprimanded for an unaccounted rifle. That was only a and it goes back a long time—1967—I have never seen generation ago, yet today £125 million-worth of Bowman such low morale among personnel when they are not on radios are still unaccounted for. operations. There is a difference. On operations they Many Members will raise their eyebrows, because the come up to the plate; they are fantastic. They are issue has been highlighted so many times in different everything one would always expect. It is the British reports, but poor accountability for decisions and outcomes way of doing it. But off operations—boom! Down they and for the use of public money needs to be addressed. go. Accountability needs to be hard-wired in the MOD, not Obviously, the SDSR has an impact, because there is just at the highest level but at every level, otherwise massive uncertainty on job security and life for the reform will not be successful. future. There is a pay freeze, and rising inflation has made life very difficult for the junior ranks. Some The final issue I want to examine is measuring outcomes. service personnel are involved in change programmes. As a member of the Select Committee, I draw attention They see an increase in work load and fewer resources to our recent report, which notes that we were told that being given to them. Obviously, barracks and the “88 per cent progress had been made to a stable and secure accommodation are not great. The Welsh Guards in Afghanistan.” Cavalry barracks are looking forward to having a hot It is a promising statistic, but when we examined it shower when they go to Afghanistan—and they are in further we were told that west London. “the performance was not 88 per cent against a full range of I hope last night’s Evening Standard is wrong that indicators of what is happening in Afghanistan, for example on anyone above the rank of sergeant is going to lose his or the quality of governance, the economy and security.” her London weighting, because if that is the case a In that case, what is the point of such a statistic in the sergeant will get a 4.5% pay cut in London, when he or MOD’s annual report and accounts? We can debate at she has no choice over where they are deployed. Do we length the different aspects of decision making and take a pay cut? Do we lose our London weighting? Do allocation of resources, but until we have proper civil servants lose their London weighting? It is not fair. accountability and measurement of outcomes we cannot Many people, of course, serve away from home for a have real change in future outcomes and conduct in our long time, and the tour interval for some people is now MOD. We need to change the culture. We need real down to about a year. Families do not like it, clearly, accountability, with consequences. We need to measure and they put pressure on soldiers. The biggest contributory outcomes so that effective decision making can be built factor to low morale is the fact that our armed forces on well into the future. are taking such a cut in personnel. Leadership is essential. Leadership in the Ministry of Several hon. Members rose— Defence is about heart as much as statistics. Soldiers need to know they matter and are cared for by the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I remind people who look after them. Military commanders Members that the wind-up by James Arbuthnot will should look downwards first before they look upwards. start no later than five to 6. I am slightly worried because I seem to think—I hope I 521 Strategic Defence and Security 26 JANUARY 2012 Strategic Defence and Security 522 Review Review [Bob Stewart] I hope that at some stage my right hon. Friend will be able to provide me or the Committee with a written am wrong, but perhaps I am not—that too many generals answer on why the stabilisation unit, which is not part are trying to be political or be civil servants rather than of the combat forces in Afghanistan, is expected to be looking down at their soldiers. withdrawn by the end of 2014. It seems to me that it has I will end, because I know we are short of time, by a role to play after that. concluding on morale. If we want to be the best—to use Having defended my right hon. Friend, I shall attack the Army’s phrase, “Be the best”—we must get morale the shadow Secretary of State for Defence in a way that right. It is not right at the moment, particularly when I have attacked him before by suggesting that he runs our soldiers, sailors and airmen are not serving in the the real risk of becoming leader of the Labour party. I field. Addressing morale is the top priority of everyone know that that does him no good, but I have always in the Ministry of Defence, from the Secretary of State thought it. He was described today as temperate, and downwards. It is very important that everyone in a rightly so in my view. position of power and influence puts their heart and The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) soul into getting that vital aspect as good as it can be. made a powerful case on the bases and barracks in and Thank you for calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker. around his constituency, which will go down extremely well in Scotland, I am sure. The hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) offered a world view of defence 5.52 pm and of the strengths and weaknesses of Europe. I Mr Arbuthnot: With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy entirely agree with his comments, apart from one with Speaker, I will simply do a brief analysis of what has which I have a little difficulty. I agree with him that emerged from a really good and effective debate. Europe has to step up to the plate a great deal more than it has done recently, but in response to his suggestion The right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne that the cuts we make in this country should be contingent East (Mr Brown) talked about nuclear deterrence. on other countries improving their defences, I have to Personally, I give his arguments rather more credence say that he might have to wait a very long time before than most of his own party do, because he was thoughtful that happens, although I hope I am wrong about that. and highly intelligent, as one would expect from him, about the nuclear deterrent; but the hon. Member for It was wonderful to listen to my hon. Friend the Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) later made some Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh). At last I have comments about the nuclear deterrent, echoed by my found someone who is even more gloomy than I hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), —[Laughter.] I will long remember his final quotation which I think carried the day in the persuasiveness of and try to use it myself. On the point he made in his the arguments. Nevertheless, I thought that the way in speech, Argentina should be in no doubt that we will which the right hon. Gentleman spoke was very sympathetic not let the Falkland Islands go, and if the Falkland and most persuasive. Islands were by any chance to be retaken by Argentina, we would take them back. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) showed what he brings to the House of My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Commons Defence Committee. He brings a passion, an Wiltshire (Mr Gray) demonstrated in his speech why he understanding and a degree of detailed knowledge of is the chairman of the all-party group on the armed figures that is sometimes quite intimidating, but is forces. He made an excellent defence of defence budgets enormously valuable. He will hold the feet of the Defence and the armed forces in general. The hon. Member for Committee to the fire, and as a result we will do our best Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) made a to hold the Ministry of Defence’s feet to the fire. powerful contribution, as he always does, to today’s debate and raised the question of whether we should The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), as have one carrier or two. I think it essential that we have always, drew our attention to important matters, such two carriers, properly configured. as the maritime patrol aircraft—a key issue—and the I am not at all surprised that I agreed with everything various ways in which its absence will cause huge difficulties that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South for this country. We on the Defence Committee know West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) said. I think the whole that it was perhaps the most difficult issue for the House values his experience as a reservist. I am not all Government to confront in the strategic defence and surprised either that I disagreed with a lot of what my security review, but when the hon. Lady told the House hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Penrith and that we could be sharing Luxembourg’s maritime patrol The Border (Rory Stewart) said, but he said it with such capability, that brought home quite what a pass we have strength, clarity and passion that, as has been noted, he come to. kept the whole House gripped. He also made us think, I want defend my right hon. Friend the Secretary of and what a valuable thing that is for a debate such as State, who has been accused of partisanship. I am not this. entirely sure that he was attacking the Labour party; I My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy think he was mostly attacking the previous Prime Minister, Lefroy) talked about very important issues, echoing and in that many might join him. In fact, many Labour many that have been made about maintaining the cohesion Members might join him, judging by the many of the armed forces— conversations I have had with former Secretaries of State for Defence bemoaning the way Ministry of Defence 6pm budgets were treated. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). 523 26 JANUARY 2012 AFC Wimbledon 524

AFC Wimbledon reason why I requested the debate is because, strange as it may sound, everyone involved wants to prevent what Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House happened to us from happening again. No true football do now adjourn.—(Greg Hands.) lover could possible want what happened to us to happen to anyone else. 6pm Yes, it is true that the fans of AFC Wimbledon are enjoying their success, and yes, they are the same people Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I who enjoyed success as supporters of Wimbledon, but am pleased to raise this issue in the House today. AFC the highs that we have experienced are nothing compared Wimbledon has an important place in the hearts of with the lows, and we do not want another club to suffer many of my constituents. As we approach another big those. First, in 1991, the club left its home at Plough FA cup weekend we will, I am sure, look back at many Lane. This was an ignominious time, especially for of the cup’s greatest moments. Perhaps none are so those of us who, like me, were connected to Merton fondly remembered as one from nearly 24 years ago, council. We were persuaded by the owner, Sam Hammam, when a team that had been in the Football League for that Plough Lane was unsuitable for top-flight football, only 11 years beat probably the best team in Europe, which required all-seater stadiums, and that he should when the Dons of Wimbledon beat the Reds of Liverpool be allowed to leave while a new stadium was found. and John Motson coined his wonderful phrase, “The Crazy Gang have beaten the Culture Club!” My dad and my sister were very lucky to get tickets for the cup Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ final, and a picture of me with my dad, who passed Co-op): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the away five years ago, hangs proudly in my hall back in debate this evening. The point that she is making is Colliers Wood, with him wearing his yellow and blue pertinent to many football clubs. Does not that show rosette. It was a happy day for our community, and it just why, when the Government are considering the was also one of the happiest days for me, my sister and future licensing regime for football, there should be a my dad. Winning the FA cup was a thrilling achievement. presumption against clubs being able to move out of grounds, unless it is in the interests of the club and they Nearly a quarter century on, the achievement of one have somewhere permanent to go? club in going from non-league to FA cup winners in barely a decade has been mirrored by the achievement of another. That club is AFC Wimbledon, which despite Siobhain McDonagh: I completely agree with my being formed only in 2002, has now made its way in less hon. Friend. AFC Wimbledon is a case in point that than a decade from jumpers for goalposts to the Football justifies such registration. League. Less than 10 years ago a community came AFC began to ground-share with Crystal Palace at together in a time of struggle, and now they have Selhurst Park in Croydon. They never returned. Even achieved something even more amazing than the original worse, new owners took over and, in 2001, announced Wimbledon. I am sure that all Members with an interest that they wanted to move to Milton Keynes. There was not just in football but in the power of community will of course opposition from fans—not just fans of want to join me in saying how proud we are of AFC Wimbledon, but those of virtually every football team Wimbledon. Therefore, I take this opportunity to in the country. The move was opposed by the Football congratulate the manager Terry Brown and his predecessors, Association and even the Football League, which blocked and all the current and past players and staff. the move twice. Many MPs became involved in the campaign against the move, and I wrote numerous Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I am grateful times to the football authorities. With such opposition, to the hon. Lady for securing the debate, and for few of us believed that the move could happen, but in allowing me to intervene. She is absolutely right. The May 2002 an independent commission gave it the green key word she has hit on with AFC is that it is a club of light. the community of Merton and Wimbledon. The work The decision was as devastating as it was that it does in the community, beyond its work on the incomprehensible. It was the end of the road for our football field, is to be commended. That is why the Dons. For most fans enough was enough, and they nickname “The Dons” needs to come back to that club, stopped supporting Wimbledon FC, which suffered so where it belongs. much that it went into administration the following year, shortly before finally moving into Milton Keynes Siobhain McDonagh: I completely agree with the in September 2003. Not only had the club failed to hon. Gentleman. return, as Sam Hammam had promised it would, but The people we most want to congratulate are the thanks to the independent commission, what was still supporters. AFC Wimbledon is owned by the fans left was stolen and taken to another part of the country. through a small supporters group, the Dons Trust, and That was the point at which most people would have is deeply rooted in our community. When it was promoted walked away, but a remarkable group of people decided to the Football League at the City of Manchester not to. According to legend, a group of fans including stadium last May, after Danny Kedwell’s penalty kick Erik Samuelson, Ivor Heller and Kris Stewart met in a and Seb Brown’s heroic penalty saves, it was not just the pub and decided to set up their own team, which would club that was celebrating, it was the whole community. be owned by the fans and rooted in the local community—a But I have not called this debate today just to praise club they could be proud of. In June 2002 they held my local football club—although that would be reason open trials on Wimbledon common and cobbled together enough. Yes, I want to use this debate to inspire, and to a team in just a few weeks. Their first game was a sing the praises of community football. But the main friendly against neighbouring Sutton United, another 525 AFC Wimbledon26 JANUARY 2012 AFC Wimbledon 526

[Siobhain McDonagh] never have to go through the same thing again. The review of football governance is very much to be welcomed, famous FA cup giant-killer. Perhaps unsurprisingly, and the work of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, Sutton won the match 4-0, but the result was less in particular, has been incredibly helpful. important than the fact that the dream was now real. I especially pay tribute to a former Member. Alan Rather like what happens in Kevin Costner’s “Field Keen was an exceptional chair of the all-party football of Dreams”, those people built their club thinking, “If group and, by all accounts, an excellent football player— we build it, they will come.” In a race against time, they even into his 70s. He played a leading role in getting found a ground at Kingsmeadow, just over the Merton football governance taken seriously. border in Kingston, and persuaded the Combined Counties Football League to let them enter their competition. Supporters Direct, the independent co-operative that And once they had built it, come they did. Around champions fans’ concerns, has also been inspirational. 3,000 fans went to those early games, more than the old Established in 2000, thanks largely to the efforts of my Wimbledon had attracted in the championship. What right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), followed has been astonishing: five promotions in nine and the exceptional Phil French, whom I was pleased to years. see at AFC’s first league game against Bristol Rovers last August, it has been a powerful voice of good sense. However, that is not the whole story. AFC Wimbledon I especially thank Kevin Rye, who has been a great help achieved their success in the right way. On the field, year to me today, but the entire organisation is fantastic. after year they have won the Fair Play award, and off it they have been a model of good management and I do not have time to go through the whole subject of community involvement. The club is owned by the football governance, because it deserves a far bigger Dons Trust, a supporters group pledged to retain at debate and there are many more people qualified to least 75% control of the ownership. In 2003 it made the speak on it than me. I am concerned about the narrow difficult decision to have a share issue in order to buy question of how the review of governance can stop Kingsmeadow, the ground they share with Kingstonian, clubs going the way of Wimbledon and ensure that they a club that is itself in terrible financial trouble and go the way of AFC. It should not be possible for clubs threatened with new asset-stripping owners. just to pick up sticks and leave the communities that AFC have been looking to return to Merton ever support them. A proper, grown-up relationship between since, and the council has been very co-operative and communities and their clubs is the way forward for all supportive throughout. The leader of the council, Stephen clubs, and I back Supporters Direct’s call for action. Alambritis, a qualified football referee, is personally We now have an opportunity to ensure that football very involved in working with the club to identify a new clubs can never again have their identity stolen or be home in the borough if that is at all possible. AFC have uprooted and moved away from the communities that a real commitment to community sport and are well support them. If Supporters Direct’s model of formal known in the area for their commitment to women’s licensing had been in place prior to 2002, Sam Hammam football and youth football. I have only good things to and his successors might not have got away with what say about the chief executive, Erik Samuelson. He is a they did, so we need new rules on supporter and community fan first and foremost, and infamously agreed to carry engagement that give rights to supporters on behalf of out his full-time duties in return for the nominal sum of the community. Those rights should include the right to one guinea a year, because have a “fit and proper supporters’ trust” to engage with “it sounded posher than a pound”. its club, with basic rights to information, including He would be the first to say that the club would be financial information, and to hold meetings with club nothing without every supporter helping to make it a executives. success and the fans who give up their summers to paint We should make it mandatory to secure the agreement the ground, or spend match days selling programmes or of the fit and proper supporters’ trust before any running the car park. fundamental changes to a club, such as the sale of its AFC have always been very supportive of the activities ground or a move to a different part of the country, take that I get involved with in Mitcham and Morden. In place. I support also the proposals to reduce clubs’ 2009 I held a reception for the club here in the House in dependency on “benefactors”. Instead, clubs should recognition of its community work, and I remember have to rely on generating their own revenue, as AFC those people being greeted warmly by many Members. Wimbledon do, as a protection against overspending by Indeed, back in 2007 when the club was docked 18 points speculators. for not knowing that it had to fill out an international So it is clear in my mind that Supporters Direct is transfer form in order to sign a retired player, Jermaine right, and I should like to hear the Minister’s views on Darlington, from Hackney, 88 MPs joined me in signing how licensing could help the supporters of clubs such as an early-day motion about it. Even the then Prime Wimbledon, but I should like also to raise the thorny Minister, Tony Blair, told the House: issue of identity theft. It is not the first time that I have “it sounds like a daft rule, and someone should change it.”—[Official raised it in the House, and Members have usually agreed Report, 21 March 2007; Vol. 458, c. 813.] that identity should be protected. AFC have made a big impression, because they have When the FA commission agreed to let our club leave been recognised for their work in our local community. south London, its supporters felt that their identity had So that brings us up to date. been stolen. Everything that they identified with suddenly AFC are an inspiring story of good people doing belonged to someone else. Very kindly and sensibly, good things and getting good results, and this is now the new Milton Keynes club decided that, even though our opportunity to ensure that clubs such as Wimbledon they were essentially the same club as Wimbledon FC, 527 AFC Wimbledon26 JANUARY 2012 AFC Wimbledon 528 they no longer merited the honours won by Wimbledon, I congratulate AFC Wimbledon on its promotion to so they handed over the titles and cups to Merton the Football League this season. That was well merited council. They even changed their name from Wimbledon and, as the hon. Lady said, a fantastic example of what to MK Dons, but “the Dons” is the nickname of Wimble- can be achieved. It was the culmination of a great many don, and now that AFC Wimbledon have reached the things, many of which she mentioned in her speech. football league it is time to reclaim our identity. We are However, as she correctly said, it is, just as importantly, the Dons, and it is time for the authorities to look at the an example of what can be achieved through the power running sore of our identity being stolen. and determination of supporters—I am thinking The Dons are from Wimbledon, and it is time for the particularly of the three gentlemen whom she mentioned. new club in Milton Keynes to come out of the shadows It is the supporters of AFC Wimbledon who, through and stake out its own identity. I understand that they their financial acumen and leadership, have driven this are a good team with a good young manager, and, success. That is a great model for what fans can achieve although what they did caused a lot of hurt, it is time and a great example, dare I say it, of the big society in to consign it to history. It is time for them to find a action. I am delighted that their achievements have different way of representing their heritage, in their been recognised by Downing street. name, and then the team that are known throughout In the coalition agreement, the Government made a football as Franchise FC, which most fans think gained commitment to work with the football authorities—the their position through identity theft, would be able to Football Association, the Premier League and the Football carve out their own identity and allow AFC Wimbledon League—in this country to encourage reform of football to retain theirs. That would be good for Milton Keynes, governance, including measures that would encourage removing much of the stigma associated with that club, co-operative ownership of football clubs by supporters. and it would be good for the game. Like the hon. Lady, I pay tribute to the work of the I hope that the Minister will therefore commit to Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. The ensuring that the new licensing model also tackles identity Government have supported its report and recommendation theft, and I urge him to back the “Drop the Dons” that football supporters should have much more of an campaign, launched earlier this month by my local active role in the running and decision making of their newspaper, the Wimbledon Guardian, and to support my clubs. In our response to that report, we have suggested early-day motion on the subject. a number of ways in which we believe that may be It has been a real privilege to hold this debate today. I achieved. have always said that mine is a strong community, and The first is through fans being better informed about that we are at our best when we act together. Nothing a club’s activities—for example, its financial standing, demonstrates that more than the Dons Trust and its particularly, and the identity of its owners. Secondly, creation of a brand-new football club to replace a supporters ought to be represented or consulted in the much-loved old one. club’s decision making. That will help to prevent such In just nine years, the club has come a long way and unpopular decisions as a club’s moving miles from its made a big impression not just on me, but on many traditional fan base, as was the case with Wimbledon Members and on the wider football world. When we FC. Thirdly, supporter and supporter-run groups ought lost our football club 10 years ago, we lost some of our to have a formal share or ownership in their club. pride in our community. Well, we have got it back, but Following the Select Committee report, we have given we do not want anything like that to happen to anyone the football authorities—the FA, the Premier League else, and we believe that we now have an opportunity to and the Football League—the time to determine the ensure that it does not. So I say, on behalf of every best way of achieving those goals. In their response to supporter of every club rooted in every community, the Select Committee process, they have the opportunity “Come on you Dons!” to work together collaboratively—they have not always done so in the past—for the long-term benefit of the 6.14 pm game. The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh We have asked those football authorities to bring Robertson): That is a difficult one to follow, Mr Deputy forward their proposals in three key areas by the end of Speaker. February this year. The first is the reform of the FA I congratulate the hon. Member for Mitcham and board—a long-running sore since the Burns review. Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) on securing this debate Secondly, there is the relationship between the board, and on the great interest, knowledge and enthusiasm the various FAcommittees, the council and the shareholders. with which she has promoted her local club. I genuinely Thirdly, and most relevantly to this debate, there is the thank her for that; one of the great things about my job introduction of a licensing system for all professional is that it is not always a terribly party political post. I clubs, where much more robust rules around financial take great pleasure in the fact that Members from both sustainability, fit and proper persons and directors are sides of the House want to come together and praise the laid out. We see that licensing model as the appropriate great work done by sports clubs in their local communities. vehicle for greater supporter representation at football clubs. As I said, the football authorities are due to make I associate myself entirely with the remarks that the public their proposals by the end of February. I hope hon. Lady made about Alan Keen. He was a great that the hon. Lady will forgive me if I do not pre-empt friend. I am not a good enough footballer to have that tonight. played much football with him, but I played a great deal of cricket with him. He was a remarkable cricketer for a The hon. Lady was right to praise the work of Supporters man in his 60s and a great sports enthusiast. Many Direct, which has been pivotal in the whole process. It people across the House miss him greatly. provides fans with the focus and voice to ensure that 529 AFC Wimbledon26 JANUARY 2012 AFC Wimbledon 530

[Hugh Robertson] I will finish where I started, by congratulating the hon. Lady on securing this debate. Crucially, I not they can secure influence and ownership of sports clubs only congratulate AFC Wimbledon once again on their and has contributed to the setting up of a network of promotion and their recent award, but thank them for supporters’ trusts in many sports beyond football. the excellent work that they do in the community, which as the hon. Lady said was recognised here in a reception in 2009. To conclude, I reiterate the coalition Government’s I recognise that any change in the corporate governance commitment to encouraging greater supporter involvement landscape of football ownership will be something of a in football clubs. With the hon. Lady and many Members cultural change. Given that we are trying to modernise across the House, we await with interest the response of and professionalise the governance of football, there the football authorities to the Select Committee’s report. will have to be a similar step change in the skills of Question put and agreed to. supporters’ representatives. That will ensure that the success of AFC Wimbledon is repeated across the country 6.20 pm and across the leagues. House adjourned. 143WH 26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 144WH

reason to want information to protect its own national Westminster Hall interest. Indeed, there are many socio-economic benefits, such as being able to monitor the path of monsoons Thursday 26 January 2012 and the impact of development. One Minister said, “If somebody comes to me and says that we have completed a school in X or Y, I can check whether that school has [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] been built without leaving my office, because we have the benefit of these things.” That is perfectly legitimate, International Development (India) proper and proportionate. Developing countries should not be denied aspirations because they have to deal with [Relevant documents: Eighth Report of the International poverty. Development Committee. The Future of DFID’s Programme More to the point, it is a fact that in spite of this in India HC 616 and Seventh Special Report HC 1486 success India faces substantial challenges in terms of (Government reply).] poverty reduction. As the hon. Member for Ealing, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Southall (Mr Sharma), a former Committee member, be now adjourned.—(Mr Newmark.) said, there are still 350 million people in India living on less than $2 a day, which is more people in that degree 2.30 pm of poverty than in the whole of sub-Saharan Africa. Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): It is good to initiate The focus of the UK’s development programme across this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and the piece is poverty reduction and achievement of the to have the opportunity to debate the United Kingdom’s millennium development goals. India needs to be able important relationship with India across a range of to deal with those issues in spades, in a sense. It is areas, of which development is just one key facet. off-track on MDG 1 on reduction of poverty and on I am pleased to see one current and one former MDG 4 on infant mortality, and badly off-track on Committee member present. Our Committee decided to MDG 5 on maternal mortality. In these circumstances undertake a review of the UK development relationship it is, in the Committee’s view, right and proper that we with India against a background of critics of aid—those determine whether the UK’s development assistance who either do not believe in it at all or want it cut—homing can help resolve those issues. in on the India dimension as a target for demonstrating The Department for International Development’s that, somehow, it was not justified. Those critics used operation report, drawn up since we completed our various arguments saying that, for example, “India is a report, makes it clear that the UK regards development middle-income country”, “India has significant economic as part of its strategic relationship with India. We growth”, “India has more billionaires than the UK” should acknowledge that we have a shared history with and “India has a space programme”. Those are true India, which is contentious but is a fact that has engaged facts, but they need to be qualified. I hope and believe both our countries for several hundred years and, if one that the Committee dealt with these issues constructively. parks the fact that they have not all been good and that The range of income for middle-income countries is there have been mistakes and memories that we would from a little more than $1,000 to $13,000. India is right rather not have to recall, it is also true that we have at the bottom end of that spectrum and in reality achieved a depth of understanding in that relationship Britons are 20 times richer than Indians or, put the about culture, a common language, the same sense of other way round, Indians are 20 times poorer than humour and a shared interest in cricket. Britons. There is a natural affinity between the two countries, which is borne out by the scale of the diaspora in the Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): The UK and the scale of trade and investment. It is interesting right hon. Gentleman may agree that although India is to note that investment between India and the UK is middle-income—quite high and rising every day—at greater than between India and the rest of the European the same time it still has as many people below the Union put together. These significant, positive benefits poverty line as the whole of Africa. Poverty is also a reinforce the case made by many hon. Members, who major factor. believe that the purpose of development is to deliver poverty reduction and the MDGs and, in the long term, Malcolm Bruce: The Committee addressed that argument also to create viable states that can develop economically head-on. It is worth putting on record that the implication and can and will become development, trade and investment of their criticism is that some critics resent the fact that partners. That is precisely what is happening between India has billionaires, success and growth. That is what the UK and India. we hope development will bring; that is the whole idea In the press release accompanying the publication of of promoting development. In reality, the UK has the report, which focused on the key issue—I do not partnered India in a constructive way throughout a lot often quote myself—I said: of different dimensions. “The test of whether the UK should continue to give aid to It is worth dwelling on the question of space for a India is whether that aid makes a distinct, value-added contribution minute. India’s supposedly extravagant space programme to poverty reduction which would not otherwise happen. We has absorbed $6 billion in total over 50 years, which has believe most UK aid does this.” been used mostly to give India the capacity to launch its The other issue that critics raise is that India has a own satellites. A country that is a subcontinent in itself, responsibility, as its income rises and economic performance with a border dispute with China and in Kashmir, a improves, to deliver its own poverty reduction. That is Maoist uprising over many years in Nepal, a civil war in true. The fact is that India is doing a huge amount to Sri Lanka and problems across the region, has every achieve that. The transfer of wealth from the rich to the 145WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 146WH

[Malcolm Bruce] just went to the toilet wherever they wanted to go—anywhere, anytime—and were polluting their own poor and the programmes on health, education and water supply. Indeed, some of them said, “We’re killing work, which are raising people out of poverty, cost tens ourselves and one another by the way we behave.” of billions of dollars and are funded by internal resources There was a huge divide, I have to say, between the managed through the Indian Government. By comparison, attitude of men and the attitude of women. The women the £230 million a year of UK aid is a small amount. Is said, “The least we should do is designate certain areas it so small that it does not matter? We concluded that, for sanitation and manage them. That will enable us to qualitatively, that aid was able to help Indian authorities have clean areas.” The men said that that was sissy, and agencies achieve a faster reduction in poverty and namby-pamby nonsense, that they had always done it an aspiration to deliver off-track MDGs faster than wherever they wanted to and that that was what they would otherwise be so and that it was, therefore, beneficial. should always do. It is very difficult for outsiders to get That is also the view of the Indian Government, which involved in that, but we did watch the argument and is why they welcome the UK as a partner. It is clear that concluded that it showed that community-led health in these circumstances the relationship is right and and education programmes were as vital as anything. proper and should continue. As a result, the Committee recommended that DFID We looked at DFID’s priorities to try to assess whether give a higher priority in its programme to sanitation. we believe that it matched the needs as the evidence We very much welcome the Government agreeing to presented to us suggested. We found, first, from objective double the resource that they will put into sanitation in evidence, that India is an unequal society—tackling the programme. To be honest, the Committee might that inequality is clearly a challenge and a responsibility want to go even further, but we appreciate the fact that for Indian politicians and Ministers—and that the contrast the Government have done that. We welcome it entirely. between the richest and poorest states is huge. Some of I will not detain hon. Members by looking for the exact the poorest states in India are poorer than some of the quote in the operational report because I do not have it poorest states in Africa. In that context, DFID had to hand, but I think that I am right in saying that the identified that it would concentrate a high proportion expectation is that DFID’s programme will give 5.5 million of the development in four of the poorest states in or 6 million people access to proper sanitation. Proper India: Bihar, which the Committee visited, Madhya sanitation usually means pit latrines and associated Pradesh, which the Committee also visited, Orissa and things. That is 5 million or 6 million people who do have West Bengal, which has changed its name to one that I not such sanitation now, but it still leaves about 550 million cannot now recall. Those are the poorest states, where a people who will not have been reached. Of course, there relationship has already been established and where are other people engaged in that work, but the provision there is evidence that DFID’s engagement can accelerate is a long way short of what is needed. the action to meet the challenge of reducing poverty. The second issue that we were especially concerned One thing that shocked the Committee, although about was malnutrition. Those who follow the progress perhaps those of us who know India well should not be of developing countries will know that as poverty falls so shocked, was the appalling state of sanitation across and incomes rise, there is a correlation with a reduction large parts of India and, indeed, the acceptance of the in malnutrition, especially in children. However, in India, appalling state of sanitation. Committee members were that is not happening. There, malnutrition is decreasing genuinely shocked by the figures: 500 million or 600 million at only a quarter of the normal rate. Again, there people are practising open defecation every day, without appear to be quite a lot of social awareness problems. It any access to the basics of hygiene. That is one of the is customary, for example, for women to diet during most fundamental problems that India has to face and pregnancy in order to have small babies, which are one of the reasons why it is off-track on some MDGs. easier to deliver. No one points out to them that they may be small babies, but they are likely to be severely Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I compliment malnourished and, indeed, at risk of not surviving. It is the right hon. Gentleman on the report and his speech. said that the word “nutrition”and the concept of nutrition During the Committee’s deliberations, was it aware of do not even translate into quite a number of indigenous the disproportionate use of bad sanitation by the Dalit local languages. We welcome the fact not only that peoples and the discrimination against the Dalit peoples nutrition is a target area for DFID, but that the particular throughout the country? That leads to lower life expectancy target is the first 1,000 days of a child’s life, because all and worse health outcomes for them than for the rest of the evidence is that that is critical to whether children the population. survive beyond the age of five and grow up. The connection between the issues that I have mentioned Malcolm Bruce: We were, and I will come to precisely and maternal and child health is pretty self-evident. that point. I am grateful for the intervention. That is clearly an important priority, because the maternal Let me give hon. Members the example of a meeting health MDG is the one that is most off-track in India. that Committee members had in a village in Bihar. The fact that that is an area where DFID can make a There was a discussion about sanitation. It was about contribution is extremely welcome. the extent to which people there had a problem because I will now deal with the intervention by the hon. the surface water was so badly polluted that they could Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). Social not use it, so they had started drinking from wells exclusion was an issue on which there absolutely was polluted with arsenic and iron. When we got into the focus. It is a slightly delicate issue, but one on which discussion, it became apparent that there was no shortage DFID and the Indian Government can to some extent of surface water, but it was heavily polluted because work to reinforce each other. It is evident that the there was no orderly way of managing sanitation. People poorest people, the people whose communities are furthest 147WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 148WH off-track in relation to MDGs, are those who are socially The Committee’s conclusion was that to have terminated excluded: the Dalits and other low castes, the hill tribes the aid programme in India prematurely would have and minority religious groups. When one talks to the deprived millions of people in India of an opportunity Indian Government, they say, “Our constitution and to be lifted out of poverty, and Britain and India of our political drive is to include these people,” but given developing a relationship that could be mutually beneficial that, culturally, they have been excluded from the to the poor people not just in India but in Asia, Africa community, it is very difficult to enforce that. Sometimes and elsewhere in the world. it is helpful for a development partner to identify with On that basis, I am happy to say that the Government statistics and information why the problems persist and are fundamentally right to stay in India. We have made the practical measures that could be taken to tackle some constructive suggestions about what the priorities them. I think that DFID has said that it will prioritise should be, some of which they have accepted. We also that. have some questions which the Government will need to The final issue, on which we would welcome an answer over time if they are to fulfil their own stated update from the Minister, was the commitment by the ambitious objectives. Government, which is entirely consistent with the idea that India is in transition out of being a development 2.50 pm recipient to becoming perhaps a development partner, Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and that 50% of the UK programme in India should, by the Lesmahagow) (Lab): I endorse everything that has been end of the programme, be targeted on private sector said by the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm development. In principle, the Committee wholly supported Bruce) in his position as Chairman of the Select Committee. that, because ultimately development is about generating a viable private sector that can generate a tax base, Over Christmas and new year, I started reading the wealth and everything else to sustain the public services. Max Hastings tome, “All Hell Let Loose: The World at War 1939-1945”. In his introduction, he explains that However, we were not entirely convinced as to whether one of the most important truths about war, as in all DFID had any idea about how it would deliver on the human affairs, is that people can interpret what happens target and with what partners. That is not to say that it to them only in the context of their own circumstances. was an illegitimate target, but I think that we are The fact that objectively and statistically, the sufferings entitled to say to DFID that it needs to flesh out what it of some individuals are less terrible than those of others intends to do. I therefore ask the Minister these questions. elsewhere in the world is meaningless to those concerned. How can the Government ensure that that private sector The same logic can be applied in the case of India and development reaches the poorest states and the poorest aid. communities, rather than the low-hanging fruit, which are easier to reach and for which the market might I am a relatively new member of the Select Committee, deliver anyway? What might be the role of CDC in its and India was my first overseas experience. Since then, newly revamped format; will it be part of that? What the Committee has visited the Democratic Republic of about the role of UK Trade & Investment? We discovered the Congo, Rwanda, Burundi, and, in December, South that it is very active in places such as Mumbai, Hyderabad Sudan. It is when one visits these places that the relativities and so on, but does not get to Bihar, Orissa and so on. of poverty strike home. The question is whether that needs to change. In New Delhi, we visited a slum inhabited by third- We accepted, once we had discounted the critics, who generation Bangladeshi immigrants; children as young simply want to discredit aid and development altogether, as two and three were rummaging through bins to find that there were legitimate issues about a country such as waste to recycle. They were paid 1 rupee for a kilo of India, which is developing and creating substantial wealth, glass. The community had hooked in—dangerously and, technology and innovation of its own, as well as having needless to say, illegally—to the electricity supply with an aid and development programme. However, when we the most primitive devices that I have ever seen. In look inside that, there are two things that absolutely Burundi, the prospect of electricity for a local community justify the maintenance of the partnership. What I am is a pipe dream. People must interpret what happens to talking about is entirely in the spirit of the International them in the context of their own circumstances, which is Development Act 2002, which is focused on poverty why India must be placed in context. It has a population and the MDGs. of 1.2 billion people, 400 million of whom live on less First, the Indian Government are putting very substantial than $1.25 a day, and 800 million of whom live on less resources into redistribution and raising taxes to fund than $2 a day. I am pleased that the Government and their own poverty reduction programme; and they are the Select Committee are not far apart in their assessment lifting millions of people out of poverty each year. of India, which was pored over in some detail by the However, the pace at which they are doing that needs to Chairman just a few moments ago. be accelerated. The UK is important as a partner less I want to highlight just three issues from the report: because of the resource that we are putting behind that sanitation, which has already been covered; private and more because of the expertise and technical help investment; and discrimination and social exclusion. and support, backed by resources, that we can put in. On sanitation, the Government agree with the Select That will help to achieve a situation whereby hopefully Committee’s view. The right hon. Member for Gordon by 2015 India will have made material progress towards mentioned Bihar. On our visit, the Committee split into eradicating poverty, the off-track MDGs will be coming two groups; one visited Bihar and the other visited back on-track and we can move from a relationship Madhya Pradesh. I did not visit Bihar, but when we all whereby India is a client state for development to one joined up together, we discussed our experiences. whereby we are states that are co-operating on partnership In Bihar, a state of 90 million people, public defecation and development. Indeed, that is already happening in is routine. In some parts of the state, toilets are available third countries—for example, in parts of Africa. but people still choose not to use them because they are 149WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 150WH

[Mr Michael McCann] In conclusion, there is a widespread recognition that the development relationship with India has to change, considered unhygienic. Water supplies beneath the ground but I urge caution. The Daily Mail would have us are contaminated with minerals, while above-ground believe that the Indian Government are building space supplies are contaminated with waste. I am therefore shuttles, which is certainly not the case. In truth, the pleased that the Government agree with the Select satellite technology that they are using is more about Committee’s view that the emphasis must change from putting in place communications systems for their vast health to water and sanitation. Put simply, poor sanitation country, not space exploration. is creating a huge number of health problems in the India is a nation of extremes—wealth and poverty, country. and freedom and oppression. There is one issue that we On social exclusion and discrimination, despite the must not forget. If we believe that the millennium fact that untouchability was outlawed by article 17 of development goals are the benchmarks by which we will the Indian constitution, it is none the less alive and well. eradicate global poverty, India must be part of the In Madhya Pradesh, we visited a Dalit village and had solution. With 400 million people living on less than the opportunity to talk to some women and girls. We $1.25 a day, and a further 800 million people living on asked for examples of discrimination, and two were less than $2 a day, we will never achieve our goals unless offered immediately. Manual scavenging, which has been India is part of the solution. On that cautionary note, outlawed, is still rife. For anyone who does not know I will end my contribution. what it is, let me explain. People who are in lower castes have to carry the night waste of people from a higher caste, and they are paid 8 rupees a month per household. 2.58 pm One lady explained that she carried out that task for Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): It is a pleasure 100 houses. It led to skin infections and miscarriages. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, to follow Another example is of a young girl who, because of the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and her under-nourished state, looked about six or seven, Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), and to talk in a debate when in truth she was about 13 years old. She explained initiated by my right hon. Friend the Member for to us that when she went to season her food at school, Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), whose expertise in this field she was told by the teacher to stop. She was not allowed is second to none in this Parliament. Moreover, he has to put her hand in the same salt as the other children. been an enormous help to me in my role as chair of the When she pluckily replied, “I am a human being, too,” Liberal Democrat committee on international affairs, the teacher said, “No, you are not.” That is utterly although I realise that today he is speaking in a less extraordinary and demonstrates that discrimination is partisan role. still alive and well. There is much work that needs to be I also bring a little bit of personal experience to this done in that area. As the right hon. Gentleman said, it debate. I worked for a development agency in India is good that that is recognised, both in our report and in during the 1990s. I was seconded by Oxfam in the UK the Government’s response. to the fledgling organisation, Oxfam India, which already The third element is the Government’s private sector had a locally registered charity and an overwhelmingly investment policy. I must declare that I am a sceptic. I Indian staff force. Indeed, we had a Hindi slogan, milka agree wholeheartedly that jobs and growth take people hum garibe per pa sekte heh vijay; if my Hindi is not out of poverty, but I remain unconvinced by the too rusty, that means that together we can overcome Department for International Development’s approach. poverty. It was an important message that that was not I direct Members’ attention to paragraph 75 of the a western import, but something that mattered to all the report. In an evidence session, I asked the Secretary of citizens of India. With your indulgence, Mr Davies, and State for more details about how the investment would because I am sure that it is within the terms of the take place. He replied that debate, as Oxfam is a DFID partner, perhaps I may “you do not have to have a prescriptive line on this.” congratulate Oxfam on the 60th anniversary this year I disagree. This is British taxpayers’ money, and it is the of its presence in India, and congratulate Oxfam India Select Committee’s job to ask the difficult questions. It on its admission as a full member of Oxfam International is the Secretary of State’s role to provide the answers, with an Indian board and a completely Indian staff. and he could not do so, as the record demonstrates. That changing relationship is, in microcosm, an illustration of the changing relationship between Britain and India. The Government’s formal response puts a little more flesh on the bone. Like the right hon. Member for Traditionally, India has been the largest recipient of Gordon, I want the Minister to give us more detail on UK aid, and the Select Committee and many other what investments will take place. When we were in one people, as my right hon. Friend said, have raised questions of the villages in India, we met a woman who had about the continuing nature of Britain’s aid programme bought a buffalo. She then bought another buffalo with India. India is now a middle-income country, but it through a micro-finance project. When she paid off the still has more people living below the notional poverty loan, she said of her work-shy husband, “He now line of $1.25 a day than the whole of sub-Saharan thinks that it is his business,” which demonstrates that Africa. The future DFID programme will focus on those types of subtleties take place across the globe. many of the poorest states in India. States such as Bihar Half of the money from the Government programme and Orissa are among the poorest in the world, and will go to private investment. We must be told how that would certainly be low-income countries if they were investment will take place, because not everyone can separate nations. buy buffaloes to provide milk for the local communities On nutrition, the Select Committee’s report draws and repay the loans. I therefore remain sceptical, but I attention to some remaining alarming facts. India scored would be delighted to be proved wrong. 23.7 in the 2009 global hunger index, putting it in a 151WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 152WH category where levels of hunger are considered to be states such as Orissa, where companies such as Vedanta alarming; it is at a level comparable to that in Burkina Resources were exploiting aluminium potential through Faso and Zimbabwe. Almost half of Indian children bauxite mining, and could easily have trashed the local are undernourished, which amounts to one third of the environment that was precious to the tribal people world’s undernourished children. As my right hon. Friend there. the Member for Gordon said, India is far from on track We must be cautious in our approach to the private to achieve some of the millennium development goals. sector, but DFID’s instincts are absolutely right, and Recent research by Andy Sumner of the Institute of the private sector can sometimes bring light-footedness, Development Studies shows that 70% of people around flexibility and imagination to development, with an the world who live below the poverty line live in middle- overall potential that is much greater than simple income countries, where income may be badly distributed, Government-to-Government development aid. That high and there may be issues of equality as well as development level of agreement between the Select Committee and and superficial growth. It may be attractive superficially the Government is very welcome. to withdraw aid from middle-income countries, but it must be done carefully and gradually, because there are existing commitments to anti-poverty programmes, many Malcolm Bruce: It is important to note that the of them involving, as my right hon. Friend said, public Committee is responsible for holding DFID to account health, education and empowerment, and not simply for Parliament, and I want to make it clear to my hon. providing goods and structures. Friend that we take evidence, and we are prepared to address criticism, but that includes backing a The Select Committee’s report rightly noted the scale Department—particularly when it is under attack for of the Indian Government’s expenditure on things such what it is doing—addressing some of the critics, and as nuclear and space programmes, which have been helping to confront some of the arguments the other controversial, but they identified them, rightly in many way. It is not that we instinctively want the Department cases, as an essential part of India’s development. They to work, but we have a constructively critical approach. are fundamental to India’s development of energy The agreement is based on a thorough analysis of the infrastructure, and to telecommunications infrastructure, evidence, not some sycophantic, cosy relationship. It is and flood monitoring, which is a direct benefit to some important that that is understood. of the poorest people in India. Without a satellite system and the so-called space programme, it would be difficult for India accurately to monitor the impact of Martin Horwood: My right hon. Friend makes an flooding, and to map flood-risk areas. It may as well be important point. I did not mean to imply even that the criticised for developing a telephone system or solar Committee had not found fault with DFID’s programme. energy. I am glad that the Select Committee agrees. It has given a clear direction on things that in many cases must change, but it is welcome that the Government There seems to have been a large measure of agreement have accepted many of the Committee’s recommendations between the Select Committee and DFID; not only straightforwardly. does the Committee support many of the emerging priorities for DFID, but the Government, in their response The Secretary of State has said that the UK is in the to the report, agreed with a large number of the Committee’s final mile of its aid relationship with India, and that recommendations—the focus on poorer states, sanitation, represents an honest assessment of Britain’s maturing nutrition, and the priority given to maternal and child relationship with one of the world’s leading new powers. health, social exclusion, and working with the private Increasingly, the way in which countries such as Britain sector. will help to alleviate poverty in India is not necessarily through aid, but through fair and open trade. The I heard the comments of the hon. Member for East European Union’s proposed free trade agreement with Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow on the relationship India—it might even be mentioned at the forthcoming with the private sector, but when I lived in India and European Council if we are lucky—is important. worked for a development agency there, I became aware that the contribution that organisations such as Oxfam, India and Britain are allies on climate change and the and even Government programmes the size of DFID’s, ongoing United Nations framework convention on climate make to poverty on a grand scale was dwarfed by the change, and I think both appreciate the risk to the potential for the private sector to impact on people’s poorest people in the world, including those in India, lives, for good or ill. There are good examples of Indian and the need to emphasise adaptation to climate change corporations such as Tata pursuing effective social as well as mitigation in the international climate finance responsibility programmes that are much more developed fund, and Britain’s climate finance programme. They than anything we in this country tend to call corporate are collaborators on international peace and security, social responsibility. The reality of poverty is often and they have shared experience on development issues, staring them in the face every day, and the Indian which could be valuable to countries around the world. corporate sector has a proud record of poverty alleviation. The time is coming when the last vestiges of a colonial At the same time, other companies go in recklessly, relationship should be laid gently to rest and handed especially to the poorest states, and exploit natural over to the historians. India and the United Kingdom resources without properly consulting local populations, now need to stand side by side in the world, standing up causing immense damage, sometimes environmental, for shared values of democracy, respect for the rule of often social and often costing many lives. The biggest law, and human rights, and with deep concern for the and most famous example is Bhopal, but there have world’s poor and how to help them in practical and been others on a smaller scale since. Wearing my hat as cost-effective ways through development assistance. Both chair of the all-party group on tribal peoples, I know countries have an enormous amount to teach the rest that some of those examples involve tribal people in of the world about development. The eventual end of 153WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 154WH

[Martin Horwood] The Secretary of State is an eminently reasonable man, for whom I have tremendous respect, and he has Britain’s aid programme to India, when it comes, will be done a first-class job since he arrived in the Department. a proud moment to be celebrated by both parties, but it He is a reasonable man and he speaks reasonably, but should not be the end of the story. others do not always speak reasonably, and the right hon. Member for Gordon outlined their argument. 3.9 pm Indeed, in yesterday’s debate on UK-India trade, which Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I am delighted took place in this hall, the hon. Member for Banbury to take part in this well-informed debate, and I pay (Tony Baldry) put things rather differently. He spoke of tribute to the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm India’s economic growth of 7% a year, and said that, Bruce), who chairs the Select Committee, for initiating with its nuclear and space programme, it had the it. He spoke with great knowledge and tact, and he put responsibility to ensure that the benefits of that growth his questions and criticisms in a probing rather than a were more evenly shared among its people. partisan way. I hope the Minister will be able to respond I want to take this opportunity to echo the words of to many of them when he sums up. the right hon. Member for Gordon and to address that I would like the Minister to clarify the Government’s distortion. India is on course to reduce poverty from position on aid to India somewhat in the aftermath of 55% in 1990 to just 22% in 2015. No other country has the Select Committee report. India is home to one third ever managed such a sustained reduction in poverty, of the world’s poor and to more than 20% more poor taking one third of its population out of poverty in a people than all of sub-Saharan Africa. Across India, a mere quarter of a century. India has put huge resources, child dies every 15 minutes from a preventable disease, proportional to its budget and its GDP, into poverty one in three people remain illiterate and more than reduction. It spends a higher percentage of its budget 400 million Indians have no access to electricity. on education than we do in the UK, its free food As the right hon. Gentleman outlined, poverty is programme is the largest hunger-alleviation program in largely focused in four Indian states: Bihar, Madhya the world and the employment guarantee scheme has Pradesh, Orissa and Paschim Banga—the state whose been incredibly successful at getting people into work name I think he was looking for, which used to be wherever possible. Since 2004, India has increased the known to us as West Bengal. Between them, they are percentage of GDP it spends on health, education and home to nearly one fifth of the world’s poor. social services from 5.35% to 7.2%. As I say, it spends a higher proportion of its annual budget on education In 2009-10, Britain spent £295.1 million on development than we do in the UK—12.7%, compared with 11.5%. projects in India. Of that, 45% went to the Indian national Government, while 48% was spent in partnership Despite India’s impressive growth and her progress with those four states, which are the poorest in India. on infrastructure and urban development, and despite Britain’s aid targets were health, education, rural poverty, the fact that her middle classes have quadrupled in size trade development and civil society. Its projects are in the past decade, India simply could not afford to achieving quite significant progress, providing 9 million alleviate her poverty on her own, even if she poured all slum dwellers with access to water and sanitation last her resources into it. A 2009 World Bank report noted year, putting 30 million more children in primary school that even if India legislated for a 100% marginal tax since 2003, saving 17,000 lives per year by improving rate, the funds raised would plug only one fifth of its health care and lifting 2.3 million people out of rural poverty gap. The idea has been peddled that India just poverty since 2005. needs to tax its flowering industries and its billionaires a The Indian federal Government no longer believe little more, but that is a myth, and I am delighted that themselves to be an appropriate recipient of development the Chairman of the Select Committee has nailed it this aid—at least not since our Government asked whether afternoon. they thought they should receive it. Previous Governments We must continue to support India in alleviating had adopted a different approach, saying that that was poverty. That is an international responsibility, and we not a question they would ask the Indian Government must meet it. Will the UK Government commit to tying and that they simply wished to provide aid to achieve our aid to India to net reduction reductions in poverty the millennium development goals for the world. Of and to India’s increasing ability to pay for poverty course, once we ask the question, it is difficult for a reduction itself? In that way, any decision to stop helping proud federal Government such as India’s to say that some of the world’s poorest people out of poverty they still want aid. I think the Government made a would be based on facts on the ground, which can be mistake in asking that question, but it is on the record, established and quantified, rather than on what sometimes and both countries have set out their position, so it has seem to be the whims of the populist press in the UK. to be respected. The International Development Secretary gave a mixed Those who argue for an end to aid should consider message on the future of DFID’s Indian programme in how things would be if Britain bordered the world’s his speech on Christmas eve, and we should probe this next superpower and was surrounded on all sides by further. He defended the Indian aid programme, failed and unstable states, some with nuclear capacity. highlighting the fact that Would they then be so critical of relatively high spending on defence and space? “India is a place where there are more poor people than the whole of sub-Saharan Africa” While I welcome the renewed focus on the three and stressing the success the Indian Government have poorest states, I think we need clarity. As yet, we have had. However, he went on to say: had no comprehensive plan for how DFID will work “Now is not the time to stop the programme in India but I with the private sector, but only a small number of don’t think we will be there for very much longer.” specific examples. There are hints that much of this 155WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 156WH work will involve microfinancing, but will the Minister they need to stop playing up to the hysterical and clarify the situation and perhaps expand on what is factually incorrect opinions that too often come from being done? their Back Benches. The Select Committee has criticised DFID’s internal knowledge of, and experience with, the private sector, 3.22 pm particularly in-country. The delivery of such a large Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I welcome fund will require a far greater specialist team, but DFID the fact that we are having a debate on India and on has announced no plans to implement one. In total, human rights; I also welcome the Select Committee DFID has only 58 private sector specialists, divided reports and the responses by DFID and the Foreign between all its projects across the globe. Does the Office. However, it is unfortunate that two debates are Minister propose to enlarge that team to deliver the being conflated into one afternoon. Traditionally, for micro-level projects that such private sector funding the past 10 years or so, there has been a specific one-day may require? debate here on human rights. I hope that what has In his Christmas comments, the Secretary of State happened today is not a harbinger of a future when the described the fund as returnable to the taxpayer, but human rights debate will be added to something else, neither the India project plan nor individual project rather than being given a stand-alone debate. That is descriptions give any explanation of what he actually not something for Members at this sitting to decide, but meant. The most likely explanation is that he was I hope the message will get back to the Backbench alluding to the fact that a large percentage of the Business Committee that an undertaking was previously funding will be delivered through microfinancing, which given that human rights would take up a whole day is repayable to the fund, and which can then be reinvested. throughout this Parliament. I hope that that will be If that is the case, describing it as returnable to the adhered to in future. taxpayer in the UK may be misleading. If it is not the I want, if I may, to refer to both human rights and case, and the money will literally be repaid to DFID India in the debate, which I understand goes on for and then the Treasury, will the Minister tell us? We need three hours and can cover both subjects. Am I correct a guarantee that when these funds are returned, they on that, Mr Davies? will be reinvested in full in India to alleviate poverty there. Philip Davies (in the Chair): The first half is about Another area of concern is the long-term future of India. The second half is about human rights. the India programme. The Secretary of State has guaranteed funding until 2015. We should certainly support that, Jeremy Corbyn: So why does the Order Paper say but he has also said that he does not think it will they are together? continue for much longer, and that he sees it as a short-term programme. That troubles me for two reasons: Philip Davies (in the Chair): One follows the other. first, insecurity of funding streams makes planning The next debate is about human rights. budgets at national, state and local levels nearly impossible. Deliverers need to be able to count on funding streams Jeremy Corbyn: And at what time are we concluding in the medium to long term to plan budgets efficiently this one? and effectively.Secondly, although India has made progress in combating poverty, as I outlined, by 2015, 22% of the Philip Davies (in the Chair): We conclude this first population will still be living in poverty. We need a and the next debate will be about human rights. guarantee that any reductions will be tied firstly to the rate of reduction in poverty, and, secondly, to increases Jeremy Corbyn: So I am half right; I have got half the in India’s capacity to bear that burden itself. time. I welcome the tightening of focus on the three poorest states, but not if it comes at the expense of the many Philip Davies (in the Chair): The hon. Gentleman can millions of people living in poverty in other Indian speak in the next debate—I think he indicated that he states. For example, Orissa, which was the fourth bilateral wanted to speak in it. partner state with DFID, has, in large part through DFID’s work, succeeded in reducing the poverty rate Jeremy Corbyn: Yes indeed. from 21% of its population in 2006 to 4% in 2011. That is a phenomenal achievement. However, the population Philip Davies (in the Chair): Human rights should of Orissa is 36 million, so that the remaining 4% means wait for the next debate, but if the hon. Gentleman that there are more than 1.5 million people still below wants to speak about India he can do so now. the poverty line. That is a population equivalent to the whole of Gabon, Gambia or Botswana. Yet the Department Jeremy Corbyn: I shall briefly make a couple of appears to be shifting its focus to sub-Saharan Africa. points on India. My points will be half made, because, The Government are, I think, pushing in the right as I said, time is restricted and it should not be. direction on their India aid programme, but we need I welcome what has been said about the enormous clarity about the detail, and we do not have that clarity poverty in India, and the number of people involved. I yet. Will the Minister flesh out what the increased do not agree with the view in the popular press that we private sector focus will look like, and how and by should not give aid to India; I think we should. I want whom it will be administered? The Government need to to draw attention, as I did when I intervened on the provide a sense of security to central and state right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), to the Governments in India by guaranteeing that any cuts to treatment of Dalit peoples. I say that because I am chair the programmes will be made for the right reasons, and of the trustees of the Dalit Solidarity Network. 157WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 158WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] not usually the international ones; it is much more likely to be the smaller, local businesses. Some progress has Dalits are the largest group of people in the world been made, but the protection of a proportion of who are systematically discriminated against on the employment in public service for Dalit people often basis of their descent and caste. They perform the worst enables Governments to feel satisfied that they are jobs in the dirtiest conditions, and have the shortest life doing their bit. However, it does not address the wider expectancy, the lowest level of education, the worst issues of the fundamental discrimination that goes on housing and the lowest pay and employment levels of elsewhere. any group in India or, indeed, the rest of the world. I know that the Minister is fully aware of the matter, After numerous meetings with DFID, I accept that its and I hope that the Select Committee on International assurance that British aid is tied; the Department makes Development, and the rest of the world, will keep its eye the point that we are not going to be involved unwittingly on it. The way in which 200 million people in India and or otherwise in discrimination against Dalit peoples in some other countries, such as Tibet, are treated through our aid programmes, and that several projects because of discrimination by caste and descent is simply and programmes enhance the lifestyle, values and wrong. Apartheid in South Africa was wrong, and Dalit opportunities of Dalit peoples. I welcome and support discrimination is equally wrong anywhere in the world. that aspect of what is happening. I want to draw attention to the issue on a wider scale. It was raised at the Durban millennium summit in 2000 3.29 pm and will no doubt continue to be raised elsewhere. It cannot be right that a country with India’s aspirations Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): I pay to modernity and to taking its place in the world, tribute to the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm including a permanent place on the UN Security Bruce) and to the Foreign Affairs Committee for its Council—a country that is obviously a major power in inquiry. I also welcome the contributions to this debate. every aspect—can allow such discrimination to continue. A range of issues have been cited, including sanitation, Whenever I have raised that matter with Ministers or health, tackling discrimination and exclusion, and the politicians in India, during visits to India, or with the continued need for a focus on poverty reduction, given high commission here, those concerned always point to the changes proposed by the Government in respect of the Indian constitution, which was written by the great the important role that the private sector needs to play Dr Ambedkar, who was himself a Dalit, although he in Indian development. We must consider how we make later changed his faith from Hindu to Buddhism. such a transition in a way that maintains focus on Dr Ambedkar’s constitution is a remarkable document alleviating poverty and tackling inequality. and clearly outlaws discrimination on the basis of caste India is a hugely important country for our aspirations or descent. However, it is equally clear that in reality in meeting the millennium development goals, for the Dalit people’s opportunities to get access to justice do future of international development and for economic not exist in many parts of the country. Denial of access development and growth. As the right hon. Member for to the law, discrimination against them by the police Gordon and others have pointed out, our two countries and by employers, and the traditions that are continued not only have historical links—as shown by the success in many villages, are inimical to the interest of Dalit stories of the UK’s Indian population—but a strong people. future to look forward to and be optimistic about, if we play our cards right, both in terms of our work in Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman is right to international development and in terms of our economic draw attention to discrimination against Dalits, and not relationships. Those relationships include the strengths just Hindu Dalits. There is continuing discrimination that we have through our diaspora communities here in even among people who identify themselves as Christians, this country and their trading and family links with or even Buddhists or Muslims, who are from Dalit India, as well as their interest in alleviating poverty in families and communities. However, he must acknowledge India. Of course, the diaspora communities play a key the long-standing campaign by the Government of India role by providing remittance aid and support to India. to reduce discrimination and provide work opportunities. We have a rich array of mechanisms for contributing to The Government should take considerable credit for the India in order to see it thrive and, in time, we ourselves progress that they have tried to make with an admittedly will benefit from helping India; indeed, we are already enormous social problem. benefiting. We can rightly be proud of the progress that we have Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable all worked for in making our contributions through the point, and I accept and understand that, because of the UK aid programme and other links towards India constitution and pressure from leaders of the Dalit becoming a middle-income country. Although India community—which he rightly points out is not entirely takes the credit for getting to that stage of development, Hindu but includes many different faiths—for a long our relationships with and contributions to India should time the Government of India have established reserved not be underestimated. occupations and employment levels for people of Dalit As right hon. and hon. Members have pointed out, descent. There is therefore a certain level of public 72% of the world’s poor now live in middle-income employment of Dalit peoples, which is often the only countries and, given that fact, we must change the way access to any kind of normal, sustainable employment. that we provide development aid. Once India was squarely The discrimination operates through the informality of in the group of developing countries, but now it is a other work, and through discrimination by a large roaring economic success story.The three decades following number of private sector employers—but, interestingly, India’s independence saw minimal progress, but that 159WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 160WH legacy was cast aside in the next three decades, as India maternal mortality in India. Huge progress has been enjoyed staggering growth figures. India is one of the made in that area, but much more needs to be done, fastest growing economies in the world, even at a time given that India still accounts for a fifth of all maternal of global economic crisis. Its economic growth has deaths globally. Child mortality in India has also fallen, topped 7% in just about every year since 1980. As but each year 1.83 million children in India still die President Obama said during his 2010 visit to India: before the age of five. The Select Committee’s report “India is not emerging, it has already emerged.” highlights many of these continuing challenges and, in essence, points to the need for a continued or even What is remarkable about India’s growth is that it has renewed focus on alleviating poverty. not just been dependent on labour-intensive, low-priced exports to the west. Instead, it has been driven by a new Although the promotion of the private sector’s role middle class consuming domestically produced goods, in providing aid to India is significant, and builds on the rise of service industries and a focus on high-tech some of the work done under the last British Government, manufacturing. Innovation and entrepreneurship have there are major issues that need to be addressed, as has been central to the birth of the new India, which many been pointed out already in this debate. If we are to of us are very excited about, especially those who have channel 50% of our aid to India through private sector an origin there. I myself do not claim to have an origin development, it would be valuable to see precisely how in India, but many people in my constituency and in that will be done. What kind of programmes will be other Members’ constituencies do. Their presence in beneficial for pro-poor development? It is also important Britain is a positive example of the links between Britain that there is sufficient monitoring and evaluation of the and India. programmes and their funding, including programmes As the former colonial power, Britain has had a long, that are in the private sector. Just as we set tests for if sometimes chequered and challenging, relationship non-governmental organisations when we channel aid with India, which several Members have pointed out. through them, it is vital that the same standards of As we look to the future—not only the future of India, measurement and transparency are applied to aid that but the future of Britain—we have a unique opportunity is channelled through private sector organisations. to build a new and special relationship between the two There are great opportunities for developing the private countries, which will provide a significant opportunity sector’s role in providing aid. We can see the impact that for the UK economy in the years ahead. We can already microfinance has already had in many parts of the see the benefits of that relationship, and in the years to world, including in India, Bangladesh and many other come there is no reason why we should not continue to countries. However, although we welcome the role that see them. the private sector can play in tackling poverty in India, Although our aid programme is not about promoting there is a real need to ensure that our focus remains on economic opportunities, as several Members have pointed poverty alleviation. Right hon. and hon. Members have out, if we can establish an appropriate aid strategy, highlighted the need for that focus on poverty to remain, there will be great dividends, not only for our economy and it would be valuable to see more detail in the but for India’s. It will be of mutual benefit for the two Department for International Development’s plans, to countries. build on the detail that has already been provided. Having said that, there are two Indias and that has I want to highlight a couple of other issues, one of been reflected in the Select Committee’s report and in which relates to monitoring. We believe that the Department the contributions to this debate. One India is vibrant, should provide further information on the significant innovative and at the forefront of a new political and investment being channelled through the private sector, economic powerhouse, but the other India looks much including details of the kinds of investment and of how less inspiring. The testimonies that have been given in it will focus on poverty. The second issue relates to the Select Committee’s report, some of which were gender, on which there has been some emphasis. How given to the members of the Select Committee on their precisely could programmes such as microfinance be visit to India, show that there are two Indias. There are used to support women and create economic opportunities references in the report to human rights violations and for them? discrimination, which are faced by particular groups, such as the Dalits, women and other religious minorities. I welcome the contributions made by the members of There are also concerns about lack of freedom of the Select Committee and, in this debate, the focus on speech and other human rights violations, and we should ensuring that we continue to provide assistance to India. maintain our focus on those issues. Looking forwards to 2015, we must consider how best The reality is that, behind India’s story of success, Britain can maintain its focus and act as a catalyst there is also deep poverty, which all the Members who through its aid programme, but we must also ensure have contributed to this debate have highlighted. There that we have a way of exiting that ensures that India can are 800 million people in India living on less than $2 a be genuinely self-sufficient. We must leverage our influence day, half of whom—400 million people—live on only and resources in such a way that over the coming $1.25 a day. years—post 2015—India is genuinely in a position to itself provide the welfare systems and support needed A third of the world’s poor live in India. As several to tackle poverty and is no longer dependent on aid, hon. Members have pointed out, there are more poor from Britain or anywhere else. The facts and numbers people in India than in sub-Saharan Africa. Tackling show, however, that we are a long way from that, and such poverty and inequality must be the focus of our Britain must therefore continue to maintain its commitment development programme. to the aid programme until such time as India is genuinely Regarding the work that we have already done, when in a position to lift the millions who remain in poverty Labour was in power, there was a great focus on reducing and who require our assistance. 161WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 162WH

3.41 pm 1.2 million Indian children into primary school since 2003, demonstrating that there has been a succession of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Administrations with a shared responsibility. International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): I congratulate the Chairman of the International The value of these efforts received cross-party Development Committee, the right hon. Member for endorsement when the International Development Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), on securing this important Committee completed its assessment of the UK’s debate, and I thank him for his excellent speech, which development programme in India and concurred with reflected the combined work of him and his Committee our decision to continue our funding until 2015. I recognise members. It not only focused on the India programme, the right hon. Gentleman’s perfectly legitimate, well- but set it in a context that had a huge read-across to articulated and constructive criticism, and his constructive the justification and principles that underlie where we approach to holding a Department of State to account— should place our UK effort to be partners in aid, and through his Select Committee, in this case—and I hope then to graduate to development and to securing a it is noted that DFID delayed finalising the 2011 to better future for people who have many disadvantages. 2015 operational plan for India until after his Committee His comprehensive, thorough, thoughtful and evidence- had made its recommendations. We were then able to based speech got the debate off to a most respectful and take the recommendations into account before publishing useful start. Our timing happily coincides with the the operational plan on the DFID website in October Foreign Secretary making, as we speak, a keynote speech 2011. to launch the King’s India Institute at King’s College, The pace of India’s transformation to date has been on what is India’s republic day and the 62nd anniversary remarkable, as hon. Members have noted. Although of the signing of its constitution, so there is some economic growth has slowed in recent months, India is poignancy to the debate. still achieving enviable rates of growth—rates we would Let me put the debate into context. When the coalition give our eye teeth for—lifting 15 million people out of Government came into office in 2010, we made it clear poverty every year. But we know that the benefits of the that we wanted to build a different style of international growth are not being shared equally and the scale of development, one based on dynamic partnerships that Indian poverty remains massive. India’s poorest states—each reflected our networked world and focused on a relentless of them larger than most African countries, as has been pursuit of results and value for money in the Department well noted—still face huge development challenges. More for International Development’s work. Our vision than half the girls in Madhya Pradesh do not yet go to acknowledges the prominence and value of Britain’s secondary school, more than half the young children in involvement in the alliances on development that were Bihar are undernourished, and one quarter of all so important in the past, but also looks to the relationships pregnancies are unwanted or mistimed. and international forces that will shape the future. Our decision to maintain our programme in India Engagement with the emerging powers is a cornerstone was coupled with a very clear conviction, well picked up of the policy, as the Secretary of State for International by the Select Committee, that the programme should Development set out in a speech at Chatham House in also be radically different. Because of India’s economic February last year. I am sure that Members will have growth and its own increasing resources, we are bringing noted, as did the Secretary of State in that speech, that the development partnership up to date. Since the in the space of a few short decades the world has publication of the International Development Committee’s become a very different place. Whether we are talking report on the future of aid to India, we have agreed a about the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, India and new approach with the Government of India, and I China—the Asian dragons, the tiger economies or the think that the right hon. Member for Gordon importantly gulf giants, the new powers will influence world affairs wanted to ensure that that had happened. in the future, and it is therefore in our interests to The approach has three main pillars. The first is an engage with them now. innovative new private sector programme, using returnable Of all the emerging powers, it is India with which we capital to promote pro-poor private investment in India’s will have the most multidimensional relationship and poorest states. Rather than just read out the bullet partnership. Our shared history, and political and personal points, I will give a bit more detail, to pick up on links, all mean that India is important to the United some of the points raised, particularly by the hon. Kingdom, and the Prime Minister’s visit so soon after Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow the election in 2010 reflected the importance we attach (Mr McCann) and for Brent North (Barry Gardiner). It to the relationship. is in the interests of the poor and the UK taxpayer that resources are used sparingly and only where most needed, As the right hon. Member for Gordon is aware, in the attracting private capital where possible, but it makes last year we have completed a root-and-branch review good value-for-money sense, and it is certainly good for of the aid programme to ensure that our spend is poverty reduction, to use our resources over and over targeted where it can achieve the greatest results. The again if we can. So the answer is yes, the resources will review made it clear that we can achieve real results for be reapplied for India. I say “if we can,” because we poor people in India. Why? Because the Indian Government must ensure that we preserve at all times the ability to are ploughing record tax revenues into poverty reduction apply rigour. programmes, and in that environment, our development expertise can ensure that the impact of those resources is maximised for the benefit of the poorest in Indian Malcolm Bruce: Is my hon. Friend able to say what society. Indeed, we estimate that the United Kingdom’s the CDC’s role will be? The CDC is being revamped, aid has lifted 2.3 million people out of poverty in rural and it seems that some of this returnable kind of capital India in the past five years and put an additional would be appropriately delivered through that body. Is 163WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 164WH there an active dialogue between DFID and the CDC Jeremy Corbyn: I am glad that the Minister is addressing about how the private sector funding will develop in this issue. What monitoring is taking place of private India? sector organisations that might be in receipt of equity capital via Britain or public sector organisations, in Mr O’Brien: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very order to ensure that there is no discrimination anywhere important point. In many degrees, this is a question of a on the basis of caste and descent? We should support stratified approach. It is really to do with the risk the Dalit civil rights organisation and others, as the appetites and the profile of the funding instruments Minister has rightly said, to lift them out of the poverty that lie behind it. I can certainly confirm that we hope and discrimination from which so many of them suffer. that the revamped CDC will be able to take a greater interest in applying its patient capital approach, particularly Mr O’Brien: I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s to some of the infrastructure support that lies behind speech. He focused in particular on the Dalit population, economic development, not least in the poorest states. and the third pillar that we have agreed with the Indian But let us be absolutely clear, with the DFID instruments, Government directly addresses his point. It is a new we are able to put forward the funding that we do programme of co-operation with India on global issues, because our capital can take bigger risks in riskier such as climate change, trade and food security. Linked places than even that of the CDC. We have to recognise to that is addressing full-on social exclusion. We have that there is a connection, but not necessarily an overlap. agreed with the Government of India and Odisha to set up a conditional cash transfer scheme to help more Barry Gardiner: I am particularly grateful to the than 220,000 tribal and Dalit girls who are currently in Minister for addressing the point about the returnability the last year of upper primary school get the opportunity of capital, because it is an important one to clear up. of secondary education. Will he state absolutely categorically that “returnable to Our civil society programmes in India are consistent the taxpayer”, which I believe is the phrase the Secretary and directly target the poorest and most vulnerable of State used, does not mean that the capital should be people, particularly the Dalits. They also target tribal returnable to the British taxpayer but that it should go people, Muslims, women and disabled people in order back to the fund, and then, as the Minister said, be to get them to organise, understand their rights and get reapplied for the alleviation of poverty? access to services and opportunities that they have often been denied. In direct response to the International Mr O’Brien: I confess that, in all my briefings, I have Development Committee’s recommendation, we will not seen the phrase “returnable to the taxpayer” used by increase the funding available to civil society organisations anybody. Let me be clear: this is returnable in relation to to work with the poorest and most excluded people in the repeated use of the resources for the application of the poorest states. That will cover 120 of the poorest their purposes in India. That is the idea. The International districts in India. DFID’s poorest areas civil society Development Act 2002 allows us to use returnable programme—PACS—focuses explicitly on tackling social capital instruments, such as equity investments, guarantees exclusion, discrimination and inequality. The hon. and other hybrid forms—combined loans and equities— Gentleman rightly mentioned monitoring and evaluation, that promote development and poverty reduction. which are crucial because otherwise we would not receive There are entrepreneurs who improve the delivery of any feedback. They are designed into the programmes, basic services. For instance, Irfan runs mobile clinics so we will be able to report on them as they develop and that provide a comprehensive range of outpatient medical make sure that we are held to account on their performance. services to poor people who are left out. He needs capital to buy the mobile vans and operate a professionally Mr McCann: On pro-poor private investment, one of managed unit to provide quality service and make a the Committee’s issues was how that would be scaled up profit. We can help entrepreneurs like him to do both, so that half the budget could go on those types of so that we have development and the sustainability projects. We have witnessed microfinance projects, but provided by a profitable business. That is an example of the scaling up of those would mean thousands, if not a private sector programme. hundreds of thousands, of individual projects. We are The second pillar that we have agreed with the most concerned about how that would be managed. Government of India is a programme to help women Will the Minister provide more detail on whether he and girls break the cycle of poor nutrition, poor education expects microfinance projects to be the foundation of and early pregnancy that traps so many in India in how the money will be spent? poverty. That will focus our programme on the poorer states of India, particularly Bihar, Orissa—which has Mr O’Brien: I hope that I will have enough time to been renamed Odisha—and Madhya Pradesh. answer that question. I have a great slug of information A good example of transformation relates to some of to add on the private sector but, given the topic of the the basic issues identified not only by the right hon. debate, I want specifically to cover the recommendations Member for Gordon, but by the hon. Member for East of the IDC’s report. The IDC has made a valuable Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow. Mention has contribution to the new shape of our programme in been made of manual scavenging—people cleaning toilets India and its recommendations encompass the points with their hands—which is not something that any highlighted by the Opposition spokesman, the hon. of us could easily contemplate. The Department of Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali). International Development is supporting the Indian As the Committee noted, UK aid matters in the civil society organisations and there has been a series of poorest states, where there are the fewest donors and successful local campaigns on the issue. We hope that, where growth has not yet made a significant impact on soon, this shameful practice will no longer exist. poverty. We are therefore focusing on those poorest 165WH International Development (India)26 JANUARY 2012 International Development (India) 166WH

[Mr O’Brien] Mr O’Brien: I appreciate that. It has to be a progressive partnership throughout. There will be some gradations states, and we will help states access India’s own resources, of transfer. As I think the right hon. Gentleman recognises, improve the environment for business and investment, in the past it was not appropriate to draw a line and make sure that the public get a better deal from public there will be no absolute cut-off in the future. services, improve financial procedures and reduce We all know how important the private sector will be. corruption. The Secretary of State visited India recently. We believe We have taken note of the Committee’s recommendation in helping entrepreneurs who have innovative and creative to concentrate more resources on needy sectors, and we ideas get access to some form of funding—above and plan to double our support—this is an important point, beyond microfinance—to help them have a lasting impact first raised by the Chairman of the Committee—for on poor people. That is demonstrated by the increasing water and sanitation over the next four years, giving numbers of staff in our Indian office who are focused 5 million people access to better sanitation. We want to on these matters. The Secretary of State also secured increase the amount of burden-share that others may the Government’s approval of a new programme promoting assist us with, but let us be clear that, through community investment in India’s poorest states. The Samridhi approaches, for every pound we spend on sanitation, we partnership is the first private sector development project, expect Government partners to spend approximately and it will be delivered in partnership with the Small £20. We are piloting community-led total sanitation Industries Development Bank of India. He also supported in Bihar and, assuming that it proves effective, will roll the expansion of microfinance plus patient capital to it out. entrepreneurs. Such projects will be developed and we The Prime Minister of India recently described child will have to monitor and evaluate them, but the important malnutrition—another point raised by the Committee thing is to make sure that they deliver the necessary Chairman—as a national shame. Over the next four profitable, sustainable businesses, as well as the pro-poor years, DFID aims to reach more than 3 million children development goals that we all want to achieve. through nutrition programmes, including—not least over As the Secretary of State found on his visit, we have the first 1,000 days and with the Governments of Madhya made progress on the transformation of our programme. Pradesh, Bihar and Odisha—a programme on child-feeding, Our challenge now, as noted by the Committee Chairman, micronutrient supplements and diarrhoea management. is to press ahead with work to achieve ambitious results. Trained community health workers are very much part We plan to deliver for India’s poor and to work together of that programme. Our energies are focused on delivering with India to secure development outcomes on a global the results expected of our programmes. For instance, scale and in the context of a gradual but important 447,000 births between 2011 and 2015 will be delivered process of graduation from aid to, ultimately, a truly with the help of nurses, midwives and doctors in those global partnership based on trade. three states, but it is too early to finalise our plans for post-2015. I appreciate the interest of the Committee, but let us 3.59 pm be clear that we will not be in India in a development Malcolm Bruce: I thank all hon. Members who have relationship for ever. Our aim over time is to move from contributed to the debate, which has been extremely an aid-based relationship to one based on shared positive and constructive. The Committee’s mood and contributions to global development issues, not least the Minister’s response is that we are working in partnership climate change. with the Government and the people of India. Indeed, what we are doing, we are doing together and in full Malcolm Bruce: Will the Minister acknowledge that, participation. The fundamental concern and objective according to our discussions with the Indian Government, is to ensure that the poorest of the poor people in India they themselves see the relationship changing and coming get the support that they need to stop being poor as fast to an end? It is not just a decision for the United as possible. The UK’s ability to accelerate that process Kingdom Government; it will be a joint decision between will be the most positive measure and judgment of our the UK and the Indian Government. engagement. 167WH 26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 168WH

Human Rights will go to Egypt, Tunisia and Libya in two or three weeks’ time. The role of the Foreign Office in recognising and promoting human rights there will be a part of our inquiry as it develops. [ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] [Relevant documents: Eighth Report of the Foreign Affairs I will touch on a couple of countries of concern. The Committee, The FCO’s Human Rights Work 2010-11, first is Bahrain, about which I suspect we may hear HC 964, and the Government’s Response, Cm 8169.] more and where there have been many developments. I will not go through them now, as colleagues will be well aware of them, but it was our view that Bahrain should 4pm have been included in the report’s list of countries of Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): It is a concern. In response to the Select Committee’s requests pleasure to speak for the first time with you in the for an update on the situation in Bahrain, the Secretary Chair, Mr Rosindell. As you are a distinguished member of State wrote to me saying: of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs in your own “We do not hesitate to express disagreement with the Bahraini right, I can think of no one more appropriate to chair authorities. Although we do not agree on everything, Bahrain is a this debate. key ally of the UK and this close relationship allows us to have the frank discussions that often are necessary. We have, therefore, The Committee has published its report on the Foreign made it clear to the Bahraini Government that the civil rights of and Commonwealth Office’s 2010-11 human rights report. peaceful opposition figures, along with the legitimate exercise of I am delighted that we have the chance to debate it freedom of expression and peaceful assembly, must be respected.” today. Human rights are under the spotlight around the I support that approach. I recognise the Bahraini globe, so nothing else could be more important to regime’s dignified response and its establishment of the debate. I welcome the Minister to the Front Bench, independent commission of inquiry, but I encourage having seen him in other incarnations today; he is the Foreign Office to keep on the button as far as obviously having a busy day. I pat the Foreign Office on Bahrain is concerned, to follow through on the commission’s the back for its decision to honour its election pledge to work and to ensure that the Bahraini Government continue publishing its annual report on human rights, implement the necessary reforms. albeit in a more cost-effective form. The second area of concern is Libya. Again, I need Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The Chairman not remind the House of the developments there, but it of the Foreign Affairs Committee was not here for the is worth quoting the United Nations High Commissioner earlier debate on India, which lasted for one and a half for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, who addressed the UN hours. Apparently, we now have only one and a half Security Council recently. She raised concerns about the hours to debate human rights. Will he use his good detainees being held by revolutionary forces, saying that offices as Chairman to ensure that, in future years, we some 8,500 prisoners were being held in about 60 centres. have a full day’s debate on international human rights? She said: It is simply not good enough for the British Parliament “The lack of oversight by the central authority creates an to spend one and a half hours a year on international environment conducive to torture and ill treatment.” human rights. The Minister responded by confirming that the Government Richard Ottaway: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely “do not lose sight of the victims of this conflict. The conditions right. I suspect that that point may be made by other of those in detention have been raised by Ministers on visits, and hon. Members today, and I agree completely with the directly with the Libyan Government.”—[Official Report, 17 January sentiment. For that reason, I do not intend to speak for 2012; Vol. 538, c. 609.] too long, to allow others to speak. The situation at the moment is pretty dire. Militias are I welcome the fact that the Government are still free to roam around, and unlimited weapons are available. publishing human rights reports, although in a more We need basic adherence to the fundamental human modest form than in the past. I am delighted that rights that we consider important. Again, the Committee Amnesty International welcomes that as well and has will consider that. said: However, it is not all bad news. Across the globe in “It is something that we value enormously…we have real respect for this report”. Burma, distinct improvements have been made. I like to think that that is a result of pressure by the international I also welcome the fact that the Government continue community. Changes have been made to the electoral to update the list of countries of concern online on a law that allow Aung San Suu Kyi’s party to register for quarterly basis and that they have established an advisory the forthcoming by-elections, political prisoners have group on human rights that includes practising lawyers, been released and moves have been made towards greater academics and representatives of non-governmental media freedom, all of which are important human organisations, many of whom have eminent positions in rights advances that we recognise, welcome and accept. the human rights system. Again, Amnesty welcomes We must work to secure more critical resolutions in the that, for the obvious reason that, if experts talk to the UN and make our concerns known at the highest level FCO, it can produce a more informed report. with Burma’s neighbours, as well as our expectation The report was based mainly on the period from that continuing pressure will be kept on the country. January to December 2010. Much has happened since I urge the Foreign Office to remain vigilant and press then in the human rights field, with the Arab spring, for further reform, but we should recognise that the Bahrain, Syria, Russia and numerous other important improvements have come about partly as a result of the events. On the Arab spring, the Foreign Affairs Committee Government’s influence. 169WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 170WH

[Richard Ottaway] that the report provides a useful tool by which to understand the FCO’s stated positions on particular The next report will consider some cross-cutting issues, issues, as well as for parliamentarians and civil society subject to the Committee’s agreement. We will be to challenge and measure the Government against those considering involvement in rendition, and we welcome ambitions and principles. the fact that the UK has examined its own human rights I welcome the FCO’s initiative to release quarterly practices in that area. We are looking forward to hearing electronic updates on the countries of concern listed in in more detail why the detainee inquiry chaired by the report. However, it is critical that the report continues Sir Peter Gibson has been brought to an end. From to be annual and comprehensive and that it is released what I hear, it was clearly the right decision, and I publicly in a paper format. I agree with others: it is a welcome the fact that the Foreign Secretary has kept pity that a debate of this kind is being squeezed into a open the intention to hold an independent, judge-led very short period. Such a debate should be held on the inquiry after all police investigations have been concluded. Floor of the House, not in Westminster Hall. That is obviously the right way forward. I hope that the Minister can confirm that. The Foreign Secretary states in his foreword to the The Minister’s colleague, the Minister of State with 2010 report that human rights are part of the FCO’s responsibility for soft power, wrote to us in November “irreducible core” and that the promotion of human to say that Ministers have commissioned further work rights is on the strategy and that a final version of the paper has “indivisible from our foreign policy objectives”. still to be published, but did not include a date. Can the Those are very worthy statements and, of course, I Minister update us on what is causing the delay and welcome them. In April last year, I sent a written what exactly will be published? We touched in our question to the FCO seeking to ascertain the number of report on the public diplomacy aspects of the Olympic identifiable human rights officers posted to British embassies games, so our dialogue with the Foreign Office on that and missions overseas, which is a perfectly reasonable matter has been ongoing. question to ask. The Government say that they support I shall briefly touch on programme funding and human rights as a general principle, and I am sure they official development assistance for human rights. There would acknowledge the importance of bilateral defence seems to be a bit of a dichotomy in that one has to be relations and country-to-country trade. British embassies eligible for ODA funding to qualify for a human rights around the world have identifiable personnel who are funding programme. It is conceivable that a country responsible for ensuring that British positions on defence, that at first sight may not qualify for ODA funding—the trade and investment are heard and, we hope, acted Chair of the Select Committee on International upon. It seems to be perfectly reasonable, therefore, to Development has gone now—has a human rights aspect ask how many human rights officers operate and in that needs funding. That seems a little odd. which countries. In conclusion, I should like to raise the fact that the In the response—not from this Minister; it was on a World Service is being jammed by Iran and that there particularly busy day—the Under-Secretary of State for are problems with the BBC Persian TV output, which is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member particularly important in this area. Independent research for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), said that all shows that, in that part of the word, the service is the staff at all locations had human rights as a top priority most trusted, impartial and objective international radio and that programme, which is probably why the regime is jamming it. I understand that Iran is a member of the International “For operational and security reasons we cannot give further Telecommunication Union, which is a United Nations details of staff deployments and activity levels”. body. As such, it has committed itself to the free exchange I asked that question again when the FCO Minister of information and data for the benefit of all. Iran is responsible for human rights appeared before the Foreign therefore in breach of its obligations under that treaty. Affairs Select Committee, and I was given a similarly Again, I hope that the Foreign Office can take that up implausible answer. I say implausible because, in answer with the regimes. to a written question in the other place on 8 November I will now leave it to other hon. Members to express a 2010 about the number of military attachés deployed in view on our report, which we think is particularly British embassies overseas, the Government were able important. We will publish another such report this to give a detailed list of attachés in individual embassies year. I look forward to hearing the contributions of in Europe, the Americas, Asia and Africa, including the other colleagues. distribution by rank. Today, the Committee received a letter from the 4.11 pm Foreign Secretary in which he, again, does not answer the question. He obscures the issue by raising security Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to and operational concerns, so I still have not got an serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, although answer. However, he did promise to come back to the I suspect it is a case of poacher turned gamekeeper. You Committee with an estimate of the scale of resources are normally on the Foreign Affairs Committee along devoted to human rights work across the network. I with us, and I am sure that you would have made a look forward to that and hope it will be more enlightening contribution to this debate if you were not chairing it. than the answers that I have received from FCO Ministers I acknowledge the importance of the annual report, to date. Someone with clout must be identifiably responsible which was an initiative of the previous Government. for human rights—monitoring and reporting, meeting I am glad that this Government have carried it on. As civil society and advocating British positions with academics chair of the all-party group on human rights, I must say and Government officials, gathering data on the ground 171WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 172WH and producing expert information on political, social, promoting our foreign policy objectives. [Interruption.] economic and legislative developments that have worrying I am recovering from flu, Mr Rosindell, and getting a consequences for human rights in a given trouble spot. bit croaky, so I shall wind-up quickly. That is precisely the kind of human intelligence we need I urge the Government to reassert their diplomatic to understand emerging problems and, where possible, influence at the UN in 2012 to press for a comprehensive prevent them. global arms trade treaty that will have a genuine impact I should like to refer to striking the balance between on poverty and armed conflict in some of the most trade and human rights. What the Arab spring has fragile societies. In recent evidence provided to the shown is that the UK has been much too lax in the Committees on Arms Export Controls, the UK working monitoring of the sales of arms and dual-use equipment group on arms—a coalition of NGOs, including Amnesty to Governments in the middle east and elsewhere. That and Oxfam—told us that applies to the previous Government as much as it does “other supportive states (including major UK allies) have been to this one. Although we have applauded popular calls telling us at the UN that their impression is that the UK has for democracy in the middle east, we have frequently ‘rolled back’ in its leadership and activity on the ATT. Comments tend to focus on UK interventions at the ATT being notably seen those calls answered with British-made weaponry much less substantial than in previous years, a reduction of and surveillance equipment. The licensing of a wide political profile, and an absence of senior official activity”. variety of weaponry and components to countries such The Minister is vigorously shaking his head. as Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tunisia and Yemen has been misguided. Licences The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign must be rejected when there is a substantial risk of arms and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): Absolutely. being used to commit or facilitate serious violations of international human rights or humanitarian law. Ann Clwyd: The working group also questioned whether the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and Let us consider, for example, the case of Bahrain and the Ministry of Defence were allocating sufficient resources Saudi Arabia. Through summer and autumn last year, to ensure a meaningful treaty. Given that the UK very credible human rights non-governmental organisations Government—both this one and the previous one—have were documenting severe human rights abuses by the pressed so hard for a global comprehensive arms trade Bahraini security services—those allegations have since treaty, would not it be a monumental defeat for British been backed up by the King-appointed independent diplomacy if we failed to engage all our resources at the commission of inquiry—and Saudi troops were being last hurdle and ended up with a weak, ineffective treaty? sent into Bahrain. Yet in September last year, both the Bahraini and Saudi authorities were invited to attend The examples that I have given do not suggest that the Defence and Security Equipment International arms the Government are neglecting human rights; it would fair here in London. For those of us concerned by not be fair to say that. Excellent work is being done human rights and the momentum of the Arab spring, it both here in London and in embassies around the seemed completely absurd for our Government at one world. The Government need to consider whether all moment to wring their hands over the situation in their actions genuinely reflect the statements that they Bahrain and say that they were doing all they could, make on the importance of human rights and whether while simultaneously the self-same Government were we sometimes undermine the excellent work done on invited to London and encouraged to buy more weaponry. the ground by FCO staff. How can the Government be regarded as credible among Can we welcome Bahraini princes to Downing street civil society and the populations of the middle east and be taken seriously when we say that we are deeply when they seem intent on undermining that credibility concerned about human rights there? Are we undermining with those kind of inconsistencies? our position on the global arms trade by not setting the highest standards for Government-endorsed arms trade On a matter related to human rights credibility and fairs? the arms fair that I mentioned a moment ago, I serve on Human rights are not just for the FCO; they must be the Committees on Arms Export Controls, which has reflected in the work of the Department for International been hearing some alarming information about the Development, the Ministry of Defence and the Department trade fair. That is important with regard to our discussions, for Business, Innovation and Skills and, not least, in because the former Defence Secretary, the right hon. Downing street. I urge the FCO to work with those Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), gave a speech at other arms of government to establish how they can the trade fair and said: ensure that human rights are not placed in a box at the “defence and security exports play a key role in promoting our FCO. I suggest that the FCO deliver a report next year foreign policy objectives.” that takes into account all the Government’s external At the same trade fair, it was discovered by campaigners relations activities, including those beyond the FCO, so that two Pakistani exhibitors were displaying promotional that we can judge the efforts of the whole Government, material for cluster munitions, which of course are not just one of their arms, in furthering the cause of banned by international law. That is not the first time international human rights. that DSEI has been involved in controversy over exhibitors promoting banned equipment. Both the organisers and 4.24 pm the Government should, by now, have a clear and Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I robust compliance procedure to ensure that the UK is am delighted to follow the right hon. Member for not a safe haven for the promotion of weaponry and Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who makes such a conspicuous equipment that is otherwise banned. It should not be contribution to human rights in this House. Like others, left to NGOs and activists to police events that a I am very glad that we have finally got this debate. The Defence Secretary endorses as having a key role in House may not appreciate that notwithstanding the 173WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 174WH

[Sir John Stanley] checklists for officials here and overseas in our embassies to follow, there is no reference anywhere to the requirement admirable decision by the late Robin Cook to produce, under the EU and UK “Consolidated Criteria”in relation for the first time, a Foreign Office statement in full to arms exports to follow those criteria, which, critically, written form on human rights, this is the first debate include no sales of weapons, ammunition and so on that we have had on the Foreign Office annual report that could be used for internal repression. Why is the since 18 December 2008, over three years ago. That document 100% silent on that crucial requirement? delay was, in part, due to the intervention and the That is a further question that I put to the Minister. timing of the last general election. I earnestly hope that There is another important sentence in the Foreign we will re-establish an annual debate on the Foreign Secretary’s foreword. He says: Office’s human rights report and that that debate will be “It is in police stations, detention centres and court houses that a full three hours in length, as it has previously been. the state exerts its greatest powers over individuals and so where The Chamber will be glad to hear that I will be severely fairness, human dignity, liberty and justice are most critical.” truncating my planned two-hour speech to ensure that I regard that sentence as 100% right and I am very glad all hon. Members can make a suitable contribution. that the Foreign Secretary has highlighted the critical At the outset, let me say to the Minister that I point that autocratic dictatorships down the ages have welcome the fact that the Foreign Office has, deservedly, always said to themselves, “If we can get those who devoted substantial resources to producing this 355-page oppose us locked up behind bars, we can do with them written document. That is an admirable use of resources. what we like.” That is where human rights are most It is invaluable to have it and I strongly support the vulnerable. I am glad that the Foreign Secretary highlighted point that has been made by the Chairman and other that. I shall return to that sentence in relation to a right hon. and hon. Members that this must continue in particular country later. a sensible portable form—in written and published I shall now deal with a number of individual countries, form. starting with Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. I want to start by referring to a recent document that I am glad that those are again rightly listed by the has come out following the Foreign Office’s annual Foreign and Commonwealth Office among the countries report and our own report on that. It is “Human Rights of concern. As the House knows, one of the most Guidance,”which the Government have recently published important human rights organisations, if not the most in relation to overseas security and justice assistance. I important—it is important to stress this; it is a Jewish wish to highlight two points in relation to that. First, in human rights organisation—is called in English the his foreword to “Human Rights Guidance”—I very Israeli Information Centre for Human Rights in the much welcome this—the Foreign Secretary says: Occupied Territories. In Israel, it is called B’Tselem. As “It is of fundamental importance that HMG work on security I am sure right hon. and hon. Members know, B’Tselem and justice overseas is based on British values, including human is loathed in many sections of the Israeli community rights and democracy, and this guidance is designed to support that.” and particularly in parts of the Israeli Government. That reflects most eloquently the extremely important Given the fact that the Foreign Secretary says that, I and invaluable job that B’Tselem does in highlighting find it surprising and disappointing that when we get to human rights abuses in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. paragraph 13, where the Government list the human rights that must be upheld when security and justice Last year, I tabled a written question that the Minister assistance is provided, the list fails to include any specific himself answered. I asked what had been the Foreign mention of women’s rights. It includes, entirely rightly, Office’s financial support for B’Tselem during the past violations of the rights of the child, but there is absolutely five years. I was delighted to receive the Minister’s no reference whatsoever to violence against women or written answer on 12 October. It told me that after a women’s rights. I hope that the Government, like me, gap of several years, the Government had made a grant will regard that as a very serious omission. It is an even of £135,000 to B’Tselem in support of its efforts to more striking omission when the letter that the Foreign improve the human rights situation for Palestinians in Secretary sent to the Committee’s Chairman, my hon. the west bank, the Gaza strip and East Jerusalem. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), I urge the Government to continue to give support to yesterday, rightly includes women’s rights among the B’Tselem for the extraordinarily important work that it five global human rights priorities that the Government does in trying to highlight and expose the human rights have set. Why is there no reference to women’s rights in abuses that are taking place in the face of the continuing this very important human rights document? I hope relentless and, indeed, I have to say ruthless policy that that the Minister will reflect on that. the Israeli Government have followed for many years of There is a further, equally surprising omission, which bringing about illegally the de facto annexation of East I wish to highlight in my capacity as Chairman of the Jerusalem and the water-bearing parts of the west bank. Committees on Arms Export Controls. This security I now turn to Bahrain, as other speakers have done. assistance refers to assisting in particular what are Like others, I have noted that at the time the 2010 described as “security institutions overseas”. Those human rights report was prepared Bahrain was not institutions are defined in the guidance. It states: listed among the countries of concern, and—again, like “The institutions typically (but not exclusively) of relevance in others—I found that a somewhat surprising omission, this context are: armed forces, police, gendarmeries, paramilitary given that for years now the Sunni, autocratic Government forces, presidential guards, intelligence and security services (military of Bahrain have engaged in consistent and serious and civilian)”. discrimination against the Shi’a majority in the country. In other words, they are organisations that feature I certainly hope that Bahrain will be included among armed personnel in overseas countries. My question for the countries of concern when the Government produce the Minister is why, in that document, which includes their next human rights report. 175WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 176WH

Of course, I appreciate that Bahrain is strategically of the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley has also great importance. I know, as we all do, that it is the raised. Yesterday, the Foreign Secretary replied to the home of the US fifth fleet and that we face a sensitive Committee’s Chairman in his letter of 25 January and and delicate situation in the strait of Hormuz. I also stated: know that Bahrain provides a port for other NATO “We do see our trade promotion and human rights work as naval vessels, including our own. However, that is not mutually reinforcing”. sufficient grounds for going soft towards the leadership That line is convenient for the Government, and nationally in Bahrain over the gross abuses of human rights that self-serving, but in my view it is an illusion. The determined occurred in the country in the wake of the Arab spring prosecution of human rights, and the determined against unarmed civilian demonstrators and, as we prosecution of trade are not, in my view, mutually know, even against doctors and nurses who were performing reinforcing; they are inescapably mutually conflicting. their professional medical duties, as they were bound The uncomfortable reality for Ministers—I accept to do. that it is uncomfortable for them—is that they have a I note the Foreign Secretary’s statement in his letter hard choice to make in relation to China and other to the Select Committee Chairman on 12 January, in countries around the world. Do they stand up straight which he sets out the Government’s human rights agenda and firm on human rights, or do they basically say that as far as Bahrain is concerned, and I urge the Foreign they will go through the motions on human rights and Secretary to adhere tenaciously to the points that he set give first priority to our country’s commercial interests? out in that letter. In my view, on the evidence to date, this Government If there is one country in the Arab spring firmament have made the same choice as the previous Government, in which the leadership most deserves to be brought and have said that they will give top priority to trade. before the International Criminal Court in the Hague, it We will pursue that issue in the arms export area with is Syria. I know that that will not happen to President Ministers and in the report that is currently under Assad and those around him, for the simple reason consideration. that it would be blocked by the Russians who, of In conclusion, I find the Government’s position on course, have a very important naval facility in Syria. human rights somewhat mixed. Much of the wording, Notwithstanding that, there is a real opportunity for but not all of it, is right, but in translating the words the British Government to take the initiative. It looks as into hard action, in some countries at least, the action if the Arab League effort to try to stop the violence in falls significantly short of the words. I am sure that the Syria may now be in some considerable disarray and I Foreign Affairs Committee will continue to have its hope that the Foreign Office is asking itself intensively scrutiny of the Government’s human rights policy very what steps Britain and other countries can take to try to high indeed on the Committee’s agenda. exert further pressure and to develop further policies that will stop the violence in Syria, and to help the move 4.43 pm from autocracy to democracy in Syria that is urgently Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure, needed. Mr Rosindell, to speak under your chairmanship. Like other right hon. and hon. Members who listened I congratulate the right hon. Member for Tonbridge to the “Today”programme this morning, I was considerably and Malling (Sir John Stanley) on touching on so many moved by the broadcast from Syria, particularly hearing areas in the Select Committee’s report and the Government’s the crowd in a suburb of Damascus shouting, “Freedom, response. That makes it easier for me not to have to go freedom, freedom”, in the background. I earnestly hope into some of them. I agree about the importance of that the British Government will not be deaf to the cries having an extensive debate. During the previous Parliament, for freedom emanating from the thousands of very we had from 2.30 to 5.30 pm in this Chamber to discuss brave people who are seeking freedom in Syria. Select Committee reports, such as that on human rights. Lastly, I come to China, which brings me back to I hope that in future we can have longer for such what I said about the Foreign Secretary’s statement in discussion. Having said that, I congratulate the Committee’s his foreword to “Human Rights Guidance” about human Chairman on obtaining a slot from the Liaison Committee, rights being in most danger when the state exerts power because it is not always easy to do so when there are against individuals competing demands. “in police stations, detention centres and court houses”, I want to touch on a few countries, and then to make a substantive point. A few weeks ago, we had a debate and other parts of the criminal justice system. No in this Chamber on Iran. The hon. Member for Croydon country in the world uses its state power more ruthlessly South (Richard Ottaway) mentioned the jamming of and more consistently than China against those who the BBC’s Persian service. The Minister was also present wish, entirely peacefully, to take a different view from at that debate, and I had an exchange with him about that one-party, authoritarian state about how their country the Iranian Government’s propaganda channel, Press should be governed, a power that is used ruthlessly to TV.Although it is not the British Government’s decision, imprison anyone who takes a different view, using the I want to put on record my satisfaction that Ofcom has terrible, catch-all criminal offence of subversion against made the right decision on that. the state. As the House knows, in China in just the last The wider question of human rights in Iran needs to few weeks, there has been a spate of arrests with sentences be highlighted. As we move into this sanctions period of some 10 years meted out to people such as Li Tie, and the tensions that will undoubtedly arise in the Chen Wei and Chen Xi, to name but a few. coming weeks, it is important that we do not forget The Foreign Affairs Committee recently asked the those millions of people who demonstrated for democracy Foreign Secretary how the Government’s human rights and freedom against the repression and the rigged election work fits with the promotion of trade, an issue which in 2009. 177WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 178WH

[Mike Gapes] We reaffirmed our view that an independent international war crimes inquiry should be held to investigate the We also need to highlight some other countries. Our allegations of atrocities carried out by both sides. The Committee did not highlight Nigeria, and the Government Government said in their response that they would do not regard it as a country that warrants concern. await the Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission None the less, the situation there has deteriorated set up by the Sri Lankan Government. As many of us remarkably quickly in recent weeks. Human rights is predicted, that commission did not carry out the kind not just about what Governments do but about what of investigation or produce the kind of report necessary non-state actors— insurgent groups, criminal organisations to deal with the issues adequately. and terrorist organisations—do to abuse the rights of women, religious and cultural minorities and to carry The report was published towards the end of last out appalling human rights abuses against people because year. The Government have now commented on it, as they have a different faith, clan, name, orientation or have numerous other countries. The British Government political belief. That is what is happening in Nigeria said that, on the whole, they are disappointed by the today and it is very worrying. I hope that we can get report’s findings and recommendations, and that there some update from the Government about that. Nigeria are gaps and unanswered questions. The US Administration is an extremely important country in Africa and in the expressed concerns that the report does not fully address world as a whole. It is one of the largest and most the allegations of serious human rights violations. The significant African countries. Canadians have also been critical, and India has called Similarly, we have ongoing issues in Pakistan, which for an independent and credible mechanism to investigate were highlighted in our report. We have talked about the issues. the appalling murder of the Christian political figure, It is time to return to the Human Rights Council to Salman Taseer, and the repression and the human rights push the issue up the agenda again. I know that last abuses. Terrible crimes are being carried out by groups time there was a blockage, the HRC, disgracefully, over which the Pakistan Government have no control. commended the Sri Lankan Government on their behaviour Given that more than 1 million people of British-Pakistani and refused to hold an international inquiry. I know heritage have a close association with Pakistan, we need that it would be difficult to take the Security Council to keep our eye very closely focused on the country. route, because China and probably Russia would block Whatever we are doing with regard to withdrawing our it and the non-permanent members, including India, forces from Afghanistan, we cannot withdraw our interest probably would not be supportive either, as they were in the region as it is inextricably linked with our internal last time. political dynamic relating to our British-Pakistani association. Interestingly, last time, among the opposing countries Concerns have been expressed about the position of in the HRC was Mubarak’s Egypt. Things have moved human rights in Colombia. I understand that the situation on since then. Maybe, given developments in the Arab there is improving, but there are still reports of deaths world, it might be time for us to go back and see and disappearances of political human rights activists whether there is now more international support to and trade unionists. I know that the President of Colombia raise the issues again in order to get a UN inquiry. Ban was here recently and that there have been some Ki-moon clearly tried to push for one. He went as far on improvements and political change, but we need, none the issue as he could as Secretary-General, because he the less, to remind the Colombian Government that could not get the institutions to go with him. He set up they still have some way to go before they fully meet the a United Nations panel of experts, who said that the aspirations that they should have for human rights and Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission trade union rights. The European Court of Human Rights has just made “fails to satisfy key international standards of independence and impartiality, as it is compromised by its composition and deep-seated an important judgment in which it upheld the idea of conflicts of interest of some of its members.” the memorandum of understanding and the removal, with assurances, of individuals from this country to That is clear. The Sri Lankan Government must Jordan. At the same time, it rejected the decision to understand that setting up an internal process that does remove the terrorist Abu Qatada from this country. not have the confidence of the international community I believe that that was regrettable and that the decision or the Tamil population will not lead to the necessary should be contested. None the less, it is important to reconciliation within the country. People are still in understand that that judgment means that in general we detention or are not being allowed to go back to their can carry this process forward. We mentioned that issue homes. There are issues involving settlement and what in our report and it was referred to in the Government is regarded as an attempt to change the demographics response. Will the Minister update us on where we are in the north of the island, and there are serious concerns on that issue generally without necessarily commenting about individual human rights abuses in Sri Lanka. The on the specific case? Government are all-powerful, the constitution gives the Finally, I want to raise the more substantive problem President great control and the Opposition—not just of Sri Lanka. We as a Committee made some firm the Tamil Opposition but others—are intimidated or recommendations in which we commended Channel 4 inhibited in many ways from doing what is needed for its documentary “Sri Lanka’s Killing Fields”, which internally. They need international support and solidarity. showed the horrific scenes of the crimes carried out in That is why it is important that the British Government the early part of 2009, at the end of the awful Sri Lankan speak out loudly, clearly and unambiguously, using civil war, between the Tamil Tigers and the forces of the whatever channels they can—the UN, the HRC and the Sri Lankan Government, both of whom carried out Commonwealth—to raise those issues continuously. appalling human rights abuses. 179WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 180WH

4.53 pm First, in connection with the international arms trade Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I praise the treaty, we may possibly have some international hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) collaboration that may contribute to some solution to for initiating this debate. It is a pleasure to follow the that issue. What is the current state of negotiations on hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) and other the international arms trade treaty? Does the Minister hon. Members who have contributed to the debate, think that that could enable us to address human rights especially the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and matters in the context of international arms sales? Malling (Sir John Stanley), who gave an eloquent Secondly, if the Government have concluded that further declaration in defence of human rights and some well-made work between BIS and the FCO is needed on this points about the rights of women and the valuable work matter, is not it about time for them to agree on how of organisations such as B’Tselem, which I am happy to that should be done and get on with doing it in some endorse. form? Thirdly, and finally, the Committee’s specific recommendation that we review arms sales to Saudi While I am heaping praise on people, I would not Arabia is well made. That is potentially a lucrative mind praising Conservative Ministers—from the other market that is valuable in respect of growth, and so on, side of the coalition, I guess—not only for producing but it is morally unacceptable to sell arms to repressive human rights reports, which is the easy part of the dictatorships, which may use them on their own people process, but for the frequent declarations that I have and may already have used military matériel in helping heard in the House by the Under-Secretary of State for to suppress dissent in a neighbour’s territory. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), who ishere I shall resist the temptation to do a world tour of today, and by the Foreign Secretary, making clear Britain’s human rights and will focus on Russia and China, two absolute commitment to human rights in a wide range big, influential powers with domestic human rights of contexts. issues, which are also major international players and As a Liberal Democrat in the coalition, human rights permanent members of the Security Council and are are central to my political beliefs. I date human rights therefore important in that respect. policy back to a Liberal campaign—the Midlothian In the case of Russia, I want to focus, first, on the campaign—by possibly the greatest Liberal, William appalling case of Sergei Magnitsky, who died in 2009. Gladstone, who in 1880 explicitly balanced the national There is a campaign to bring his persecutors to justice strategic interest with the rights of people who were not but there is a sense among some of those who are even British citizens at the time. In many ways, that was campaigning on his behalf that Britain is perhaps a the origin of international human rights policy. I am little behind other states in taking firm action on this proud and humbled to stand in that tradition. For that case, despite the fact that Sergei Magnitsky was a lawyer reason, I welcome many of the recommendations, some working for a British company and Bill Browder, who is of them quite tough, in the Select Committee report. spearheading the campaign to bring Magnitsky’s I particularly like recommendation 3, which states persecutors to justice, is a British citizen. that In the US, the Netherlands and Switzerland, we have “failing to take a stronger and more consistent stance against seen sanctions or progress towards sanctions, in the human rights violations by overseas regimes can carry risks for form of targeted visa bans or the freezing of assets, the UK. In particular, any suggestion that the FCO downplays against the individuals implicated in the Magnitsky criticism of human rights abuses in countries with which the UK case. Moreover, because the Netherlands and Switzerland has close political and commercial links is damaging to the UK’s are part of the Schengen agreement, their action could reputation, and undermines the department’s overall work in close off most of Europe to those individuals. Nevertheless, promoting human rights overseas.” I want to hear from the Minister if the Government are The report relates that to north Africa and the middle considering whether Britain should take similar action. east, but it applies worldwide, although it was the Arab spring, as the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley Then there are the cases of Mikhail Khodorkovsky (Ann Clwyd) said, which highlighted in some areas of and Platon Lebedev, who are now widely acknowledged policy, such as arms control, the weakness of some of by many people as political prisoners. Khodorkovsky our human rights checks on Government policy—not has never seen his granddaughter. When representatives just this Government, but certainly the previous one, of the media or other third parties visit him in prison, from whom we inherited the system. For instance, it those visits are taken away from the number of visits appeared that, instead of a human rights check being that he is allowed to receive from his own family, so he is carried out to consider the potential for arms to be used suffering considerably. for internal repression, checks were made in respect There also ought to be honourable mention of Vasily of whether they were being used for repression at that Aleksanyan, who was a legal counsellor to Khodorkovsky’s moment, which effectively excused every regime in company, Yukos. He died in prison last year, having north Africa and the middle east, many of which had turned down the offer of what was in effect a plea the most appalling human rights records. The report’s bargain, whereby he would perhaps have incriminated recommendations relating to that are well made. Khodorkovsky and Lebedev. He turned that offer down I welcome the Government’s commitment to include and it probably cost him his life. Bahrain in the next human rights report and their I want Ministers not only to continue raising the response to the situation in respect of the Arab spring, cases of Magnitsky, Khodorkovsky, Lebedev and others, which included cancelling more than 160 arms export and consider imposing visa bans, but to reflect on some licences, some clear declarations in the House of Commons of the language that we are using about the European and the declaration, in response to the Committee’s Court of Human Rights. Although I completely agree report, that more work by Government was needed in with the Government that the ECHR needs reform—the this area. backlog of thousands of cases is clearly unsustainable 181WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 182WH

[Martin Horwood] European Union, an awful lot of cases would simply never be raised, such as the treatment of Roma people and there are real problems with the Court being used in Hungary and other places, so it is important to much too freely—the campaigners for these Russian maintain an independent representation. human rights defenders have expressed concern that the My first point is about human rights in Europe. I was type of language and rhetoric that we are using about present, along with my right hon. Friend the Member the ECHR is remarkably similar to that being used in for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who presided over it, at Russia. We must guard against giving domestic the launch of Human Rights Watch’s “World Report Governments too much power to decide which cases go 2012”. In the report is a fascinating essay by Benjamin forward to the ECHR, because we may actually see Ward of that organisation, part of which states: cases such as those of Khodorkovsky and Lebedev “At first glance, the idea of a human rights crisis in Europe being caught in that trap. Those cases are in that queue might seem farfetched. But scratch beneath the surface and the of thousands of cases that are waiting to be heard at the trends are truly worrying. Four developments stand out: the ECHR. rollback of civil liberties in state responses to terrorist attacks; I will very briefly discuss human rights in China, as I the debate around the place of minorities and migrants in Europe, can see, Mr Rosindell, that you are getting a little a debate too often laced with xenophobia; the rise of populist extremist parties and their baleful influence on public policy; and impatient. I want to draw attention to the situation in the diminishing effectiveness of traditional human rights institutions Tibet, and the three deaths and the continuing disturbances and tools. Unless governments wake up to the scale of the threat, there. They have resulted from what seems to be an the next generation of Europeans may see human rights as an increasing denial of human rights, particularly religious optional extra instead of a core value.” rights, in that part of China. It is very unhelpful for the Those are very tough words, and very well put. Chinese Government routinely to condemn secessionist The narrative that has been developed by the popular groups, because the current elected administration-in-exile press of constant attack on the European Court of of Tibet is not actually calling for secession any more Human Rights and its processes and potential judgments, but looking for peaceful dialogue, and that opportunity is very unfortunate and misplaced, and it is damaging should not be lost. and dangerous to our own human rights. I regret the In the case of both China and Russia, however, there way in which the Prime Minister decided to go to the are some hopeful signs. Both countries are now more Court, and how it has been presented as an inefficient, open societies than they were in the past. In the case of incompetent organisation. Yes, there is a very large China, it is maintaining the “one country, two systems” number of outstanding cases. Most of them are approach to Hong Kong and actually tolerating a very inadmissible. The issue, however, is one of resources for free society there, but it has a myopia about human the court rather than of criticism of it. The Chagos rights worldwide and is implicated in supporting some islanders have a case before the Court’s grand jury, and fairly unpleasant regimes around the world. Also, although I look forward to the result. I hope that the Government China and Russia went along with action on Libya, accept and abide by whatever decision the court takes, their failure to support a firm UN resolution on Syria and I am sure that the Minister will confirm that they does neither country any justice. will. There are many brave human rights defenders around We attack the institutions of human rights at our the world who look to the British Government for peril, and I hope that the Minister will say that the leadership. I hope that we will continue to provide British Government intend to continue their participation leadership and that we will perhaps even go further, as in the European Court of Human Rights, and to continue the Select Committee has recommended. with their acceptance of the European convention on human rights and its place in British law. The convention 5.4 pm is an instrument of defence. Roma people in Hungary, Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I have four and Travellers in other countries, have nowhere else to minutes in which to deal with the world’s human rights, go, and victims of racist attacks across Europe are in so I will do my best. There is a message in that comment— part protected by the judgments made. We do well to this situation is ludicrous. Allowing one and a half state our strong view that we believe in human rights, hours to discuss the human rights of the whole planet, and in the UN and European conventions. We should in what is apparently the first debate on this subject be proud of that, not afraid of it, frightened by it or since 2008, is ludicrous. I appeal to the powers that be to intimidated by it. ensure that something changes in that regard. Very quickly, there are several points that I want to 5.8 pm make. The first is about participation in the UN Human Rights Council. Britain is a full participant in that Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure council, which I frequently attend on behalf of a non- to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. governmental organisation called Liberation. The council I congratulate the Members present on their contributions. has greatly reformed its ways, and the in-country peer I, too, will not attempt a world tour of human rights, group review that takes place every three years is a but I pay tribute to the Members who have talked in valuable tool, which we should use to the full. The detail about the situation in countries such as Bahrain, British Government appear to have broken with the Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Colombia and Sri Lanka. tradition of allowing the European Union to represent It is not possible for me to canter through those countries, us at the council, and they make regular contributions, but there were some very well made points. particularly on the death penalty. I hope that that I entirely endorse the comments made by my hon. extremely important new tradition continues. If we Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) allowed ourselves to be represented solely through the among others, about one and a half hours not being 183WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 184WH sufficient time for a debate of this nature. There is The Foreign Affairs Committee emphasised the need inevitably a time lag with such reports, and a lot of for human rights to feature more prominently across water has passed under the bridge since this report was the Government, so will the Minister tell us what progress compiled, with developments in countries such as Bahrain the Foreign Office is making with the Department for and Syria. I hope that next year’s report is given the full Business, Innovation and Skills, UKTI and UK Export justice of a debate in the Chamber, and a full-length one Finance in particular? Let me single out one country in too. relation to which there is particular tension. The Committee Of course, Labour Members share the Committee’s highlighted that as a particular concern. I am referring belief that all Departments need to provide a clear, to China. It is notable that the Chancellor of the consistent and robust message on the fundamental Exchequer chose Asia for his first international visit of importance of human rights. I note that the Committee’s 2012. Obviously, Asia is a continent of great economic report expressed concern about the delay in the importance for us, but there is a careful balance to be Government’s strategy on the use of soft power, which struck. Will the Minister tell us whether officials were has been mentioned. I hope that the Minister will take present during the Chancellor’s visit to raise the UK that back to the other Departments and urge them to Government’s concerns about the deteriorating human do all that they can, and particularly to use the opportunities rights situation in that country and to make clear that, presented by forthcoming events such as the Olympics, regardless of the purpose of the visit—whether it is to promote the Government’s human rights message. primarily about economic matters or about other matters— human rights issues must always be on the agenda while More troubling was the conclusion by the Committee such abuses exist? that the Government had failed to take The Committee noted its concern about the Prime “a stronger and more consistent stance”. Minister’s decision to visit the middle east to promote Obviously, the Government have to be nuanced in UK arms suppliers during the early stages of the Arab the manner in which they respond to individual cases spring. It now seems that the UK continued to export and to take into account the likely impact of private between July and September last year to Bahrain, Egypt or public condemnation. Although I note that the and Saudi Arabia. I would appreciate the Minister’s Department’s official response was that the Government response to the conclusion of the Campaign Against Arms Trade that “will not downplay criticism of human rights abuses”, “While the Government promotes arms exports to repressive perhaps the Minister could respond in more detail on regimes, it is pure hypocrisy for it to talk about supporting human the Committee’s concerns and some of the concerns rights and democracy.” expressed by hon. Members today, particularly in relation to Saudi Arabia, Syria and Bahrain, and respond to the The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling concern of Human Rights Watch that the UK may (Sir John Stanley) mentioned that there does not seem create an impression of double standards. to be a reference in the report to what is regarded as the cornerstone of our arms export policy—that we do not Throughout the report, a common theme is the greater export to countries that may use those arms for internal emphasis under the current Government on the Foreign repression or external aggression. I would be pleased to Office’s role in promoting the UK’s commercial interests. get the reassurance from the Minister that that remains Of course, it is very important that we develop strong the Government’s objective when it comes to arms sales. trade links with other countries, particularly at a time when the domestic economy is faring so badly, but there I share the concern of my right hon. Friend the is always a balance to be struck, not least if the Foreign Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) about the Secretary is to achieve his stated aim of a foreign policy attempts to promote cluster munitions sales at the arms that always has fair in the UK, which I know she raised at the Human Rights Watch report launch the other day. I would “consistent support for human rights and poverty reduction at its appreciate a reply from the Minister on that. irreducible core”. I will just skim over some of the other points. The The Prime Minister, meanwhile, has asserted that the delay in the implementation of the Bribery Act 2010 is UK must place another matter of concern to us, as is the postponement— “our commercial interests at the heart of our foreign policy.” cancelation—of the Gibson inquiry. I appreciate entirely When the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth why the Government have had to do that while a Office, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), criminal investigation is ongoing, but can the Minister gave evidence to the Committee, he said that the assure us that a future inquiry will be established on the Government saw no inherent contradiction in those two basis that has the respect of NGOs, former detainees statements, although he acknowledged that they could and the international community? give rise to “short-term tensions”, so perhaps this Minister I shall just mention one of the countries specifically could elaborate on how the Department manages those dealt with in the report, because the issues surrounding short-term tensions. To what degree do we tolerate it are very much current. My hon. Friend the Member human rights abuses by a company that we are trying to for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) talked about Sri Lanka. secure a greater trading relationship with and to what We have recently had the report published by the Lessons extent do we use the trading relationship as a means of Learnt and Reconciliation Commission. I hope that, at putting pressure on the other country to deal with those some point over the next few weeks, we will find time human rights abuses? I think that people will share my for a full debate on that in the House, because there concern that in some instances the commercial relationship are many question marks over the report, in relation to is deemed far more important than dealing with the the terms of reference of the commission and its human rights abuses. recommendations. I know that I am asking the Minister 185WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 186WH

[Kerry McCarthy] They do an extraordinary job at great risk to themselves in bringing us much of the information on which we a lot of questions, but it would be helpful if he could he have to rely and take a view. say whether there will be an opportunity for further The Government take a positive, activist approach to debate on that, because there was only a written statement human rights around the world. As Ministers have from the Government. consistently said since taking office, Britain will continue Finally, I would like to raise the decision to exclude to stand for democratic freedom, universal human rights countries not eligible for overseas development assistance and the rule of law. Our values are essential to and from the human rights and democracy programmes. indivisible from our foreign policy, and we will raise That runs the risk of excluding countries that could human rights concerns wherever and whenever they benefit from human rights projects. The Westminster occur. All FCO Ministers take an active interest in Foundation for Democracy is concerned that such an human rights, and I am proud to be involved in this approach will limit the choice of which countries it work. Indeed, reference has been made to the Foreign works with. Will the Minister update us on that and Secretary’s human rights advisory group, which has met clarify the support available to countries that are not three times since its formation in December 2010. It has eligible for overseas development assistance? What challenged us to raise our game on business and human assessment is being made in the Department of the rights, an issue raised by a number of colleagues, and on impact of that decision? promoting freedom of religion and belief. We are not over-idealistic. We are interested in achieving 5.17 pm results. We take a realistic and practical approach, working with the grain in countries throughout the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign world. We consistently raise human rights issues, including and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): Through with major powers such as China, but we seek to do so their contributions, all colleagues have made as clear a in a way that we judge will have the most impact. The practical demand for more time to debate the subject as 2010 Command Paper that we are discussing today ever I could. The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry highlights 26 countries of concern in many regions of McCarthy) has done so in the past couple of minutes—I the world. They are those that have the most serious think there were 20 questions in 90 seconds. I am not and wide-ranging human rights concerns. We also take the powers that be in relation to scheduling, as colleagues account of the level of UK engagement, and consider know, but I entirely take the point. Again, as most where we can have an influence, and where there is colleagues know me reasonably well, they will know potential for a broader, positive impact on a country or that, if I could, I would spend an hour answering all the region. questions. I will certainly take the matters raised back The FCO has continued to fund projects around the to the Department. I am stepping in for the Minister of world that make a real difference, including through a State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. dedicated human rights and democracy fund. FCO-funded Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), projects have helped to overturn death sentences in today as he has another engagement, but I am sure that Africa, and in Uganda and Kenya alone that has resulted both of us feel the same. in hundreds of death sentences being overturned. Work Thank you for your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. that began in Mexico to increase the protection offered You have presided over yet another excellent debate, in to journalists by the state was taken up throughout which colleagues from all parties have demonstrated a central America. We have made a tangible difference to common commitment. As was said by my hon. Friend the lives of some 60 million to 70 million disabled the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway)— people in India by improving their access to polling I thank him for securing the debate and for how he has stations, Government websites, and state television news. led it—the Government share the concerns raised. On Colombia, which the hon. Member for Ilford I appreciate the generous remarks made about the South (Mike Gapes) mentioned, human rights were a Government’s commitment to the matter, which were, theme of the visits to the United Kingdom of President perfectly properly, interspersed with demands for us to Santos in November 2011, and Vice-President Garzón do more. That is the right of the House and of individual whom I met on Monday. One example of what has been colleagues. There is an underlying sense of our commitment achieved in Colombia—I pay tribute to the hon. to the matter—Government in, Government out. That Gentleman—is that the Prosecutor General has created is very important and is a benevolent ratchet that the new specialist units to deal with crimes of forced House applies to try to get us to do even more. displacement and forced disappearance following on As is clearly the case, I cannot possibly answer all the from the recommendations of a project funded by the questions. I will do my best to answer some, but I will embassy. also note all the colleagues who are present and ensure China has been mentioned. We supported Chinese that a letter goes to them covering the particular issues I officials conducting pilot independent monitoring of do not mention. Everyone here will then have a record. pre-trial detention facilities, carrying out prison reform, As I know of your personal interest in these matters, improving the treatment of those with mental health Mr Rosindell, I will perhaps copy you in on that letter, conditions in the criminal justice system, and supporting so that you are also aware of it. the exclusion of illegally obtained evidence in criminal I thank the Foreign Affairs Committee for its positive trials. I cannot answer the specific question asked by and constructive engagement with the FCO in our work the hon. Member for Bristol East, but I will write to her to promote human rights. I add to that a thanks to all about the presence of officials with the Chancellor. those who are engaged in this work overseas, often in She can certainly be assured that such matters are not dangerous places—not just the NGOs, but the journalists. neglected or forgotten when dealing with China. 187WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 188WH

In the immediate aftermath of the Arab spring, which “You”— my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South mentioned the Committee— when he opened the debate, Tunisia ratified the optional protocol to the convention against torture. We are funding “asked for details of the number of FCO staff engaged in human early work through the Association for the Prevention rights work across the world. Human rights represent an integral part of our Foreign Policy. It is therefore the case that all our of Torture to help Tunisia to implement the optional Missions have a responsibility’ to monitor and consider human protocol, including by establishing an effective national rights. In order to give you a clearer sense of how much the FCO preventive mechanism. does, I have asked the department to do further work on estimating I am pleased to say that we have seen progress in the scale of resource devoted to human rights work across the human rights in some unexpected quarters. As was network, taking into account our wider policy not to provide full mentioned, the new Government in Burma have made details of staffing numbers overseas for security and operational some important political reforms in recent months, and reasons. In Human Rights and Democracy Department (HRDD), we continue to have 25 permanent staff, plus one contracted released hundreds of political prisoners. Earlier this Human Rights Adviser.” month, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary visited Burma, and signalled to the President that we In every post that I have visited over the past year, there would support the Government in their efforts. The are colleagues who are engaged in this work as part of large release of political prisoners that followed his visit what they do. The number of colleagues who will be was a particularly welcome sign, but there is much to be engaged will vary according to what the circumstances done to repair the damage of the past, and the Select are, but they are all engaged because it is a key principle Committee can be assured that the Government are of what we are involved in. The fact that there may not very alert to that. be a specific adviser in each post does not detract from Turning to some of the issues that colleagues have the importance of the work, as, I trust, the compilation raised, I will do my best to deal with them. While we are of the report and the commitment that we demonstrate on the Arab spring, my hon. Friend the Member for might exemplify. Croydon South mentioned detainees in Libya. I was The reasons for being cautious about staffing there just before Christmas, and the truth is that there is numbers overseas for security and operational reasons a Government there who are committed to principles has, I think, been explained to the Committee in that we regard as crucial, as set out by the national private before, and there are good reasons for that. The transitional council during the course of the conflict. matter of the defence attaché is different because it But they are dealing with a system that, frankly, hardly involves a different Department. Our caution is not exists. There is no structure for handling judicial cases designed to obscure a commitment to human rights. in the manner that we would expect in relation to the Our commitment is demonstrated by the work that we detainees. There is concentration on doing the job. They do and the fact that everybody is imbued with this know that the treatment of detainees is a key distinction sense of commitment, as opposed to numbers. between the new Government and the Gaddafi regime, so they want to get it right. There is a problem with The right hon. Lady raised issues about arms exports capacity, and we must be understanding of the position and the like. This is a difficult area. If people are being in which they find themselves, after not just eight or clear cut, they would say that no one should sell arms; it nine months of conflict, but 40 years of a structure that is a very straightforward moral issue. As soon as we get is not conducive to the quality of justice and care of into the position of saying, “Hold on, some countries detainees that we would expect. We are working with have a legitimate right to defence and we are very good them on that, and will continue to do so. They know at supporting countries that might need to defend how important it is. The transitional Government have themselves,” then we get into the area of judgment. My acknowledged clearly that human rights abuses are right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling taking place in prison, and they have promised to tackle (Sir John Stanley) knows that well; his Committee that. We will also work with them on that. scrutinises everything that we do in great detail. Our criteria are open. They include prohibition against weapons My hon. Friend spoke about the problems relating to that would be used for internal repression or the funding and the relationship with official development continuation of a regional conflict. However, that does assistance. It is not the case that just because a country not mean that in each and every case where there might is not eligible for ODA funding that human rights be human rights concerns about some aspect of domestic support stops. We have some 12 programme funds, policy, it necessarily governs a decision on arms that providing £139.5 million to support a wide-range of might be needed to protect and defend a state from projects around the world, many of which include a incursion by others. The number of licences that we human rights element. Such support is not consequent revoked after the start of the conflicts during the Arab solely on the ODA criteria. The conflict pool and other spring showed that we have a flexible system that takes funds are available, and we will continue to make them account of changing conditions, which is what is wanted. available. Indeed, some of the Arab partnership money I know that my right hon. Friend will be exploring this is also being diverted to such projects as well. matter further with the Foreign Secretary during a Let me say to the right hon. Member for Cynon Committee session shortly. Valley (Ann Clwyd), whom I know well from her interest in this subject over such a long period, that I will do my The arms trade treaty, which was mentioned, is very best to help her out a little in relation to the human important to us. I was shaking my head vigorously rights advisers. I do not think that we are far apart on because I do sign off the odd letter in relation to this. this matter. There is no deliberate obfuscation here. She I get a bit cross when NGOs from outside suggest that suggested that the letter of my right hon. Friend, the we lack commitment to the ATT. The ATT is mine and Secretary of State, obscured the issue. Let me read the it comes under my remit. I am very committed to it and key paragraph. we are working very hard to get it right. Please do not 189WH Human Rights26 JANUARY 2012 Human Rights 190WH

[Alistair Burt] areas mentioned—Sri Lanka, Israel, the occupied territories, Iran and Pakistan—and I suspect that we will in due feel that there is lack of commitment to this. It will be course. I will be happy to respond to colleagues’ letters hard to get an agreement, but our commitment is very and to speak on these issues in time to come. strong and very real. Question put and agreed to. I could say so much more. The fact that so many colleagues have such a strong commitment to this area matters a lot to the Government. I hope they feel that 5.30 pm we share that commitment. We could debate each of the Sitting adjourned. 23WS Written Ministerial Statements26 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

working and whether, in the light of their experiences Written Ministerial and the outcomes from the monitoring, more could be done within the existing regulatory framework to improve Statements confidence and transparency.The issues raised by pre-packs are important matters that affect a wide range of stakeholders including business interests, and I look Thursday 26 January 2012 forward to discussing the findings of the review with stakeholders in the spring.

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Feed-in Tariffs

Pre-packaged Sales in Insolvency The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne): As the House will be aware, the Government’s proposed changes to the feed-in tariffs The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, (FITs) scheme are the subject of a judicial review. Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): In March 2011 Specifically, the Government have been challenged regarding I announced that we would be taking steps to improve their proposal to apply new tariffs for solar photovoltaics the transparency and confidence of pre-pack sales in (PV) from 1 April 2012 to all new installations with an insolvency. We subsequently consulted interested parties eligibility date on or after an earlier “reference date”, on measures targeted at the sales of assets in insolvent which we proposed should be 12 December 2012. companies where these are sold to connected parties Yesterday, the Court of Appeal handed down a negative (such as the directors or their close associates). judgment on the Government’s appeal against an earlier Pre-pack sales can offer a flexible and speedy means decision by the High Court. We respectfully disagree of business rescue and when used appropriately can be with the judgment and are seeking permission to appeal the best way of maximising returns for creditors. However, to the Supreme Court. In the light of that, we cannot everyone who is affected by insolvency is entitled to rule out the possibility that lower tariffs could be applied have confidence that insolvency procedures are used to installations which became eligible for FITs on or fairly and that insolvency practitioners deliver the best after the proposed reference date. It is important that possible outcome for all creditors. consumers are aware of this. It is apparent that concerns remain about the use of The reason for appealing is that we want to maximise pre-pack sales, particularly where the assets are sold to the number of installations that are possible within the a connected party—something that is often referred available budget for FITs, rather than use available to as “phoenix-ism”. I am concerned about the potential money to pay a higher tariff to half the number of for sales to be effected at an undervalue, particularly in installations. Solar PV can have a strong and vibrant smaller-value asset sales, where unsecured creditors may future in UK and we want a lasting FITs scheme to receive less than they should. I also believe that it is support that future and jobs in the industry. important to consider the effect of pre-pack sales on We have already put before Parliament draft licence competitors in the market. modifications that (subject to the parliamentary process) Following the announcement, BIS officials have discussed would bring a 21p rate into effect from April for solar the merits and practical application of the proposed PV installations which become eligible for FITs on or measures with a range of interested parties, including after 3 March, to help reduce the pressure on the budget secured and unsecured creditors, insolvency practitioners, and provide as much certainty as we can for consumers and business representatives. and industry. Having taken account of all the issues, however, the In the meantime, we want as far as possible to minimise Government are not convinced that the benefit of new the uncertainty for PV and other technologies eligible legislative controls presently outweighs the overall benefit for support under FITs. We are therefore still intending to business of adhering to the moratorium on regulations to publish the phase 2 consultation by 9 February. This affecting micro-business which is an important plank will include proposed tariffs for other FITs technologies of this Government’s deregulatory agenda. As much of and a set of reform proposals for the scheme. We are the concern was related to small businesses, I do not also intending to publish the Government’s response consider that measures should be introduced just for to the other aspects of the phase 1 consultation that are businesses other than micro-businesses. It is for this not affected by the judicial review (namely the proposals reason that I am today announcing that the Government on energy efficiency and for multi-installation tariff will not be seeking to introduce new legislative controls rates). on pre-packs at this time. The Insolvency Service, an Executive agency of BIS, HEALTH already monitors compliance by insolvency practitioners with the professional standard statement of Insolvency Nursing and Midwifery Council Practice 16 (Pre-packaged Sales in Administrations) which requires administrators to provide creditors with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health early post-sale information on details of the sale and (Anne Milton): Today, I have asked the Council for the justification for it. I have asked BIS officials to now Healthcare Regulatory Excellence (CHRE) to undertake undertake an urgent review in conjunction with stakeholders a strategic review of the Nursing and Midwifery Council of how the existing controls on pre-packs have been (NMC). 25WS Written Ministerial Statements26 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS

With a view to further strengthening the NMC’s Cash transactions for scrap metal are often completed leadership and governance, the Department also plans without any proof of personal identification or proof to consult on re-constituting the NMC’s council to that the individual legitimately owns the metal being reduce its size. This is in line with a recommendation by sold. This leads to anonymous, low-risk transactions the CHRE. The Department believes that this option for those individuals who steal metal. In addition, the now warrants consideration for the NMC. widespread use of cash facilitates poor record keeping On 11 March 2008, a debate took place in the House by the metal recycling industry and can support tax of Commons that raised concerns about the NMC and evasion activity. its performance, Official Report, columns 46-51WH. In Today’s announcement follows the commitment outlined response, the previous Government asked that the CHRE in the national infrastructure plan published in November expedite its annual performance review of the body. 2011 when the Government announced £5 million to The report found that the NMC was performing its establish a dedicated metal theft taskforce to enhance statutory duties, but not to the standard that the public law enforcement activity in this area. had the right to expect. These amendments are part of our wider attempts to Following that report, the NMC agreed an action tackle all stages in the illegal trading of stolen scrap plan to address the concerns. A new council, made up metal, and we shall bring forward further measures in of equal lay and registrant members was independently due course. appointed from 1 January 2009. A new chair was appointed on the same date and a new chief executive took office later that year. TRANSPORT Subsequent reports by the CHRE have found some areas in which the NMC is improving. Regrettably, however, their most recent report on fitness to practise, City of Liverpool Cruise Terminal published in November 2011, shows that the rate of improvement in this area falls below the standard that the public and registrants have the right to expect. That The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport is why I have taken the decisions to commission the (Mike Penning): The Department consulted last year on CHRE to conduct a wide-ranging review and to undertake a proposal from Liverpool city council to alter the use a consultation on the constitution of the council. of the City of Liverpool Cruise Terminal. The Department The review will look at the NMC’s organisational proposed to lift its objection to the removal of a grant structure, resource allocation and operational management. condition that precludes use of the City of Liverpool It will establish what further action is needed to ensure Cruise Terminal for turnaround (start or end of cruise) that the NMC is effectively carrying out its statutory operations, in return for the phased repayment of duties to promote high standards of conduct and practice £5.3 million of grants. In the light of that consultation, in order to protect the public. The NMC supports the I find that there are persuasive arguments that this level review, which will report to Ministers by early summer. of repayment would be insufficient to reflect the adverse How the NMC council might best be constituted to impact on competition with other ports. I therefore provide strong, strategic oversight will be the subject of intend shortly to seek independent advice on a more a public consultation and views from all stakeholders appropriate figure. will be welcomed and taken into account. I will report further to the House when I have reached a decision on the DFT objection. As Liverpool city council is aware, turnaround operations would also require state aid clearance from the European Commission. HOME DEPARTMENT Meanwhile, turnaround cruise operations continue to be permitted at Langton Dock in Liverpool. Scrap Metal Dealers National Policy Statement for Ports The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): I am announcing today our intention The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport to lay a Government amendment to the Legal Aid, (Mike Penning): On 29 November and 19 January, the Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill to tackle House of Commons debated the national policy statement metal theft. for ports which I laid for parliamentary approval on The Government consider that legislation is the only 24 October 2011. In the light of the satisfactory completion sustainable, long-term solution to the growing menace of that process I am pleased to inform the House that I of metal theft. There is an urgent need to make stealing am today designating it as a national policy statement metal less attractive to criminals, and tackling the stolen under the provisions of section 5(1) of the Planning metal market will act as a significant deterrent. Act 2008, and laying copies before you as required by That is why I can confirm that we will lay amendments section 5(9)(b) of the same Act. to: The planning system is a key to the future timely create a new criminal offence to prohibit cash payments to development of the country’s port infrastructure. The purchase scrap metal; and designation of this policy statement marks a significant significantly increase the fines for all offences under the step forward, clarifying what is required to enable the existing Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 that regulates the successful major port developments that will be essential scrap metal recycling industry. for trade and economic growth in the long term. 27WS Written Ministerial Statements26 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

Street Works (Lane Rental) the legal base was changed to article 48 TFEU, on social security coordination for migrant workers in the EU. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport A similar situation arose earlier in 2011 with proposals (Norman Baker): I am today publishing the outcome of to amend the social security provisions of the analogous the Government’s consultation on proposals to allow EEA agreement. Then, as now, we took the view that trials of lane rental schemes to be undertaken by a small these proposals would have the effect of extending number of “pioneer” local authorities. Lane rental would social security co-ordination rights to non-active persons involve the local authority applying a daily charge moving between the EU and a third country (in this where street works obstruct traffic at the busiest times, case, Switzerland); and that the revised legal base was providing a clear financial incentive for works to be inappropriate as it related only to free movement within carried out in less disruptive ways. the EU. The Government are now inviting applications from In negotiations, the UK expressed serious concerns authorities wishing to operate “pioneer” schemes. The over the legal base, particularly since there was an guidance I am publishing today makes clear that the existing decision with identical content, and over the Government are prepared to approve up to three such procedures under which the decision was being adopted. schemes, in areas where the local authority has already Negotiations were curtailed, and no justification was sought to achieve the desired effect through other means, given for the change in legal base. The Council decision including through a road works permit scheme. Lane on the EU-Switzerland agreement was adopted in Council rental charges would need to be targeted on those on 16 December 2011. The Government submitted a streets where works cause the greatest disruption, and written minute statement setting out our objections. would need to provide a genuine opportunity for works In parallel with these processes, we considered across promoters to avoid charges by carrying out their works Government the options open to us, including legal at less disruptive times. Evidence from the performance action. To maintain a consistent approach in line with of the “pioneer” schemes will inform future decisions the action taken concerning the EEA agreement, we on whether lane rental should play a wider role. Any decided to take direct action in the European Court on revenues raised from lane rental will have to be used for the basis that the article 48 legal base is incorrect and purposes that will help to reduce the disruption caused that the Council decision is therefore invalid. In addition, by works—for example, research and development into we confirmed our earlier decision not to opt into the disruption-saving techniques and technologies. measure. The guidance and other documents are now being On the same day that the decision was adopted in published on the Department for Transport’s website, Council, the UK lodged an application under article 263 and I will be laying the necessary regulations before TFEU with the European Court of Justice to annul Parliament shortly. the Council decision and a further application under article 278 TFEU to suspend the decision. By taking legal action against the Commission in WORK AND PENSIONS both the EEA and EU-Switzerland agreements, I believe the Government are able to underline an important EU-Switzerland Agreement Opt-in Decision point of principle concerning the interpretation of TFEU and this action demonstrates how seriously the Government take our obligation to protect our rights under the The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions treaty. (Chris Grayling): The Government are committed to the free movement of workers within the European Industrial Injuries Advisory Council economic area and Switzerland, and also to protecting the sustainability and affordability of our welfare systems. As part of that commitment we want to ensure that The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions non-active migrants from third countries outside the (Chris Grayling): In accordance with the Cabinet Office’s EU cannot gain access to welfare benefits if they have recent guidance on public bodies, which took effect never worked or paid contributions in the United Kingdom. from 1 April 2011, I have launched a review of the The present decision replaced a Council decision of Industrial Injuries Advisory Council (IIAC). This review 6 December 2010, which cited the, in our view, correct will examine the council’s functions and whether it legal base of article 79(2)(b) of the Treaty on the should exist at arm’s length from Government. If it does, Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) which the review will go on to examine whether the council’s allows the EU to adopt measures concerning the free control and governance arrangements continue to meet movement rights (in this case social security rights) of the recognised principles of good corporate governance. third country nationals. As article 79(2)(b) lies within I will inform the House of the outcome of the review title V of part III of TFEU, the Government considered when it is completed. IIAC is also due to be reviewed as whether it wanted to opt into the measures and we a Scientific Advisory Committee, and so, in the interests concluded that we did not. The content of the revised of proportionality and value for money, these reviews decision was identical to that of December 2010, but are being combined.

1P Petitions26 JANUARY 2012 Petitions 2P

have put in place the Jobcentre Plus Rapid Response Petition Service to provide a range of support measures, such as training, alongside those offered by BAE Systems. Thursday 26 January 2012 The Government are doing all they can to work with local partners to encourage new companies and investment into the area. This includes announcing two Enterprise OBSERVATIONS Zones on the Humber which, through a combination of fiscal incentives and a simplified planning regime, will generate both businesses and jobs; helping to rebalance the economy and drive local and national growth. In BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS particular, work is under way to attract offshore wind BAE Systems Jobs in the Humber region turbine manufacturers and their supply chain. In addition, the Government have made a conditional offer under The Petition of residents of Humberside, the Regional Growth Fund which includes support for offshore wind skills and training programmes Declares that the Petitioners support workers at BAE on the Humber North Bank, including delivery of Systems in Brough in their fight to save Humber jobs. 600 apprenticeship places in engineering and 1,000 upskilling The Petitioners therefore request that the House of qualifications. Government are supporting the defence Commons urges the Government to support the defence industry’s export efforts through the UK Trade and industry by investing in modern manufacturing and Investment Defence and Security Organisation and across regeneration around the Humber and to preserve skilled Government. We also hope that the Talent Retention jobs and apprenticeships in the Humberside area. Solution website (www.talentretention.biz) will help connect those skilled people looking for a new job in advanced And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Diana manufacturing and engineering with potential employers. Johnson, Official Report, 14 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 891 .] BAE Systems have confirmed their strong commitment [P000990] to apprentices and, where individuals are unable to complete their apprenticeships at the Brough site, the Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, Apprenticeship programme has sufficient flexibility to Innovation and Skills: allow those affected to move to other sites to complete Government are acting to support those whose their training. Government have committed to help livelihoods are threatened and mitigate the impact of more people benefit from high quality Apprenticeships. any job losses on the local economy. The Department On 16 November 2011, Government announced new for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Ministry of financial incentives to help small businesses take on a Defence are in regular contact with BAE Systems and first apprentice aged 16-24 and, in December, confirmed we understand that the company has been exploring all that funding for Apprenticeships in 2012-13 will be options to avoid unnecessary job losses. Government increased to over £1.5 billion.

313W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 314W

as its disclosure would, or would be likely to prejudice Written Answers to the capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces. Questions Departmental Manpower

Thursday 26 January 2012 Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many university graduates the armed forces have recruited since the end of the 2010-11 academic year. [90905] DEFENCE Argentina: Military Alliances Mr Robathan: Records indicate that between August 2011 and 18 January 2012, 623 graduates have entered the armed forces. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) nature and (b) extent of military Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for links with the Government of Argentina are. [91821] Defence which posts have been filled or created within his Department to oversee work on the military Nick Harvey: The Defence section in the British covenant in the last 12 months. [91640] embassy in Buenos Aires liaises with Argentine defence officials at appropriate levels in support of UK interests. Mr Robathan [holding answer 25 January 2012]: The There is no current bi-lateral defence activity. armed forces covenant is a high priority for the Government, Armed Forces: Manpower and this is reflected in the Ministry of Defence (MOD)’s business plan. Resources to take forward work on the covenant have been made available through the reallocation Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence of existing duties across MOD head office and the how many full-time (a) Royal Navy, (b) Army and (c) services. Overseeing this work is the Deputy Chief of Royal Air Force personnel there were in (i) May 2010 Defence Staff (Personnel and Training). and (ii) December 2011; and how many he expects there will be in the armed forces of (A) the UK and (B) other Ex-servicemen: Education NATO member states in May 2015. [91351] Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Robathan: The requested information, where (1) what funding was provided by his Department to available, is presented in the following table: service leavers studying for (a) a first full level 3 or (b) Full-time UK armed forces strength by service a first higher education qualification free from tuition 1 May 2010 1 December 2011 fees in each of the last four financial years; [89432] Naval service 39,230 36,960 (2) how many service leavers studied for (a) a first Army 113,150 110,460 full level 3 or (b) a first higher education qualification RAF 44,380 41,580 free from tuition fees in each of the last four financial [89434] Notes: years. 1. Full-time UK armed forces comprises all UK regular forces, Gurkhas and all full-time reserve service personnel. Mr Robathan: The MOD promotes lifelong learning 2. Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. among members of the armed forces, and this is encouraged As was made clear in the announcement on the through the Learning Credits schemes. The Enhanced strategic defence and security review, the Royal Navy Learning Credit scheme is designed to complement the will decrease to a total of some 30,000, the Army to Standard Learning Credits scheme by providing larger some 95,000 and the RAF to some 33,000 by 2015. scale help to personnel who qualify, with a single payment We do not hold comprehensive information on the of £1,000 or £2,000 (dependent upon length of service) armed forces of NATO member states on a comparable in each of a maximum of three separate financial years, basis. to help pay towards the cost of higher-level learning. It remains available for up to 10 years after discharge. Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator The opportunity to undertake full time higher education free from tuition fees was introduced in July 2008, and Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence is widely advertised and briefed to all eligible service on what date the Safety Improvement Notice issued on leavers. Fewer than five (rounded) service leavers entered 26 May 2010 by the Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator full time education in 2010 at a cost to the MOD of was formally closed; and if he will place in the Library some £420. About 10 (rounded) service leavers entered a copy of the Safety Improvement Notice and the letter full time education in September 2011 at a cost to the notifying closure of the Notice. [86746] MOD of some £21,000.

Peter Luff: The Safety Improvement Notice was closed Public Sector: Pay by the Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator (DNSR) on 24 June 2011 and replaced by two targeted Safety Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Directions. Copies of both the Safety Improvement Defence what discussions he had with the Chancellor of Notice, and the closure letter (incorporating the Safety the Exchequer on steps to mitigate the effects of changes Directions) have been placed in the Library of the made to public sector pay in the autumn statement. House. I am withholding small sections of the information [85018] 315W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 316W

Mr Robathan [holding answer 5 December 2011]: Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for The Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Energy and Climate Change what measures are in place Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge to monitor the costs passed on to consumers of the (Mr Hammond), holds regular discussions with the smart meter roll-out. [91680] Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), on a wide range of Charles Hendry: The Government have published issues, including in relation to the autumn statement. projections of costs and benefits to consumers of smart meter roll-out in an impact assessment, which was most recently updated in August 2011. The impact assessment identified a net benefit of £7.3 billion to the UK, with ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE overall costs of £11.3 billion and benefits of £18.6 billion. This document will continue to be updated as understanding Electricity Generation in these areas is developed. Costs and benefits will continue to be monitored Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for throughout roll-out. Further detail on the process for Energy and Climate Change what representations he doing this will be set out in the benefits and evaluation has received from (a) industry and (b) the National plan, due to be published in spring 2012. Grid on the use of STOR aggregators. [91956] Nuclear Power Stations Charles Hendry: The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Eastleigh Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (Chris Huhne), received a letter from the Canterbury and Climate Change when he expects new nuclear Club in November 2011, setting out their assessment of power stations to be operational. [92047] the role of aggregators in Short Term Operating Reserve (STOR), which is procured by National Grid in its role Charles Hendry: It is up to energy companies to as electricity system operator. DECC officials also received construct, operate and decommission new nuclear power the Canterbury Club’s full report ‘Money for Nothing, stations. Government will facilitate investment to new A Review of National Grid’s contracting criteria’. nuclear by removing unnecessary obstacles. Energy In responding to the Canterbury Club, the Secretary companies have set out plans to build up to 16 GW of of State received advice from National Grid on the new nuclear power by 2025 and EDF have submitted a contracts and monitoring processes in place to ensure planning application to the Infrastructure Planning STOR contracts can be delivered upon and the penalties Commission for Hinkley Point with an indicative timetable if they are not. for the first reactor to be operational from 2019. DECC officials have also met with aggregators during Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs discussions on electricity market reform. The participation of aggregators in STOR was discussed at some of those meetings. Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent representations he has Energy: Meters received on his decision to reduce the feed-in tariff for solar PV. [91739]

Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Chris Huhne: Ministers and officials meet regularly and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made with a range of stakeholders from the solar photovoltaic of the (a) average and (b) maximum premium being (PV) industry.Details of meetings between DECC Ministers paid by customers using pre-payment meters for (i) gas and external organisations are published quarterly on and (ii) electricity compared to customers paying by the DECC website. direct debit. [91675] The recent consultation on feed-in tariffs for solar PV Charles Hendry: The following table shows provisional closed on 23 December 2011. Over 2,300 responses estimates for 2011 energy bills based on data published were received and are being analysed prior to the publication in DECC’s Quarterly Energy Prices: of a full Government response to the consultation in the coming weeks. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ prices/prices.aspx Warm Home Discount Scheme

£ Pre-payment Difference Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy meters Direct debit (PPM— and Climate Change what steps his Department is (PPM) (DD) average DD) taking to encourage energy companies to ensure cancer patients have access to the warm home discount Electricity Average 483 436 47 scheme. [91731] Maximum 524 — 88 Gas Average 743 700 43 Gregory Barker: We have worked closely on the warm Maximum 782 — 82 home discount scheme with energy companies and Total Average 1,226 1,136 90 organisations including those representing cancer patients. Maximum 1,306 — 170 I am pleased that a number of suppliers are now working Note: in partnership with Macmillan Cancer Support under Bills are based on annual electricity consumption of 3,300 kWh and the scheme to provide support to cancer patients in fuel annual gas consumption of 18,000 kWh. poverty. I fully support these initiatives. 317W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 318W

Wind Power Departmental Manpower

Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, and Climate Change what plans he has to publish Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made individual constraint payments made to wind farm of the number and proportion of full-time equivalent companies via the balancing mechanism. [91736] staff in his Department engaged in delivering (a) front line and (b) corporate or back office services; and if he Charles Hendry: Details of individual constraint will make a statement. [91091] payments made to wind farms via the balancing mechanism are already published by Elexon, an independent subsidiary John Penrose: This Department employs 487 full-time of National Grid which handles the payments. These equivalent staff who through flexible resourcing deliver show that less than 10% of total constraint payments both back-office and front line services according to made in 2011 were to wind farms. business need. Football

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent progress he has made on reforming football governance. [86795] Arts Hugh Robertson: The Secretary of State for Culture, John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Olympics, Media and Sport on how many occasions he Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt) and I are visited (a) operas, (b) museums and (c) London theatres continuing to meet with the Football Association, the on (i) official business and (ii) as an official guest in Premier League and the Football League collectively to 2011. [88816] hear their progress on the reforms Government have called for in their response to the Culture, Media and Mr Vaizey: In 2011 the Secretary of State for Culture, Sport Select Committee football governance inquiry. Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the The football authorities have until the end of February Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), visited before they need to go public with their proposals. seven operas, 10 museums and five London theatres on official business or as an official guest. Libraries

Broadband Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport who in his Department is Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for responsible for identifying and advising him on potential Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has problems with the provision of library services by local had discussions with Telford and Wrekin council on authorities, including whether a library authority may improving broadband services in their area; and what be in breach of its statutory duties under the Libraries Act 1964. [91892] response was provided to any such discussions. [91780]

Mr Vaizey: Following discussions with Broadband Mr Vaizey: Public library services provided across Delivery UK, the local broadband plan covering Shropshire England are monitored by this Department’s officials and Telford and Wrekin has been approved and the who engage directly with library authorities. They also councils are working together on the implementation of monitor correspondence sent to the Department, monitor the plan. websites and press articles, and engage in meaningful discussion with organisations that have current information about public library service provision. These include Copyright: Internet Arts Council England, the Society of Chief Librarians and the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Professionals. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) whether he has made an assessment of the potential effect of the Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, proposed US legislation, the (a) Stop Online Piracy Olympics, Media and Sport (1) whether his Act and (b) Protect IP Act on free expression and Department has set any criteria for intervention in a circulation of ideas within British culture and media; local library authority; [91893] [91612] (2) whether it is his policy to intervene in local (2) what (a) discussions he has had with ministerial authorities where a substantial programme of library colleagues and (b) representations he has made to the closures is undertaken without (a) an adequate US Government on the proposed US legislation, the assessment of local needs and (b) a strategic libraries Stop Online Piracy Act and Protect IP Act. [91613] plan. [91894]

Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Mr Vaizey: I endorse the analysis and approach adopted Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for by the inquiry held in 2009 into the proposed closure of South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has made no assessment libraries by Wirral metropolitan borough council. When or received representations on the effect on the UK of authorities consider reorganising library services it is measures contained in the US Stop Piracy Online Act. important that they have assessed the local needs of 319W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 320W their communities and have prepared a strategic plan Stagecoach Cumbria, (c) Stagecoach North East, for their library services. Library authorities must provide (d) Snaiths Coaches, (e) Scarlet Band Motor Services, a service which best meets local needs within available (f) Redby Travel, (g) Kingsley Coaches, (h) Henry resources. Where there is evidence that this may not be Cooper, (i) First Choice Travel, (j) Classic Coaches, happening, dialogue will commence with the local authority (k) Arriva North East and (l) A-Line Coaches in each concerned. Use of statutory powers, including those of the last five years. [91662] regarding intervention, will be exercised on a case by case basis only when all other avenues have been exhausted. Mike Penning: MOT failure results are not available by operator as the data is commercially in-confidence. Radio: Wales Vehicle and Operator Services Agency’s North East Area MOT results for bus and coach operators (PSVs) Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, are displayed in the following table: Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects Radio Cymru and Radio Wales to be available on digital radio Test result 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 to listeners in North Wales. [91770] Pass 2,838 2,863 3,068 3,150 3,178 Mr Vaizey: The local multiplex licence for North Fail 648 553 542 455 455 Wales was awarded by Ofcom to Muxco Wales Ltd in PRS 477 455 390 360 300 June 2008. However, the launch of the multiplex, which Prohibitions 11 21 19 16 15 would provide the necessary DAB platform for Radio Total tests 3,974 3,892 4,019 3,981 3,948 Cymru and Radio Wales, has been delayed. The Note: Government and Ofcom are working with Muxco to PRS results are Pass after Rectification at Station and represent ensure that the North Wales multiplex launches as soon minor defects such as loose screws/bolts, bulbs out etc. that could be repaired or replaced safely at the test site with little difficulty. They are as is practicable. then tested again for that defect alone after the repair on the same day and a pass certificate is issued. Wedgwood Museum Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Transport when the Vehicle and Operator Services Olympics, Media and Sport what (a) discussions and Agency last audited each bus and coach operator in (b) meetings he has had with ministerial colleagues on area 3, including (a) Go North East, (b) Stagecoach the Wedgwood Museum. [91518] Cumbria, (c) Stagecoach North East, (d) Snaiths Coaches, (e) Scarlet Band Motor Services, (f) Redby Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Travel, (g) Kingsley Coaches, (h) Henry Cooper, (i) Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for First Choice Travel, (j) Classic Coaches, (k) Arriva South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has not had any discussions North East and (l) A-line Coaches. [91686] or meetings with ministerial colleagues on the Wedgwood Museum. In my capacity as Minister for Culture, I met Mike Penning: The Vehicle and Operator Services with a number of interested parliamentarians about the Agency carries out visits to operator premises to check Wedgwood Museum, including: a meeting with Lord their systems for maintaining vehicle conditions and Howarth of Newport and the hon. Member for Stoke- compliance with other measures (e.g. drivers’ hours) on-Trent South on 24 October 2011; and a meeting with which will include checking vehicles and records. Baroness Rawlings, Lord Howarth of Newport, Lord Information on the visits by an individual operator is Clancarty and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent commercially in-confidence. South on 20 December 2011. The total number of vehicles inspected at operator I addressed Parliament in an Ordinary Debate about visits in VOSA’s North East area are set out in the the future of the Wedgwood Museum in Westminster following table: Central Hall on 19 October 2010 and Baroness Rawlings, the Department’s Lords spokesperson, answered an Number oral parliamentary question on the issue on 29 November 2010 in the House of Lords. Departmental officials 2006-07 310 have had discussions with officials at the Department 2007-08 277 for Work and Pensions, the Pension Protection Fund, 2008-09 224 the Attorney General’s Office and the Charity Commission 2009-10 236 about the Wedgwood Museum. 2010-11 72 I will continue to hold meetings with interested parties until this issue is resolved. Driving: Licensing

Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for TRANSPORT Transport (1) if she will estimate the length of time required to update (a) driving licences and (b) Driver Buses: Testing and Vehicle Licensing Agency records when recording a change in medical circumstances; [92232] Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State (2) whether the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency for Transport what the MOT failure rate was for bus sets targets in respect of the return of driving licences and coach operators in Vehicle and Operator Services submitted as a consequence of changed medical Agency area 3, including (a) Go North East, (b) circumstances; [92233] 321W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 322W

(3) what representations she has received on the amount Mrs Villiers: The Department is currently running of time the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency holds public consultation on the specification for the new driving licences submitted as a consequence of changed Great Western franchise which includes the North Cotswold medical circumstances. [92234] line. This can be found at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2011-36/ Mike Penning: Changes in medical circumstances The new franchise is expected to start in spring 2013. notified to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) require investigations to establish if the individual Travel: Trains is fit to drive. Once these are completed a licence is either issued straight away, or the individual is informed John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for that it has been refused or revoked. Records are updated Transport what information her Department holds on as soon as licensing decisions are made. Where there is a the frequency with which the format of passenger change in medical circumstances the DVLA currently announcements on trains and in stations is reviewed. responds to 87% of its cases within 71 days. Just under [91249] half are dealt with within 14 days. Medical cases are often complex and require external specialists to provide Mrs Villiers: The Department does not hold this information which can have an impact on response information as the format of passenger announcements times. is a matter for train and station operators. The Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), has set targets for consideration of notifications of changed medical circumstances. These are: COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 1. to complete 88% of medical applications, where sufficient medical information is provided with the initial application, Charities: Finance within 15 days; and 2. to complete 85% of medical applications, where further Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for information is required, within 90 days. Communities and Local Government how much funding In 2011, DVLA exceeded both targets. Where sufficient his Department provided to (a) Action on Addiction, medical information was provided with the original (b) Adoption UK, (c) the Adoption and Fostering application, 97% of driving licences were returned within Information Line, (d) the Child Bereavement Charity, 15 days. Where further medical inquiries were needed (e) Well Child and (f) each of East Anglia’s children’s 90% of applications were returned within 90 working hospices in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if he will days. make a statement. [89769] In 2011, the DVLA received 322 representations about the time taken to update the driving licence when medical Robert Neill [holding answer 19 January 2012]: No inquiries were required. monies have been paid to these organisations during the current or previous financial year.

Crisis at Christmas Ports Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much funding Transport what steps her Department is taking to support his Department provided to Crisis in each of the last the regeneration or expansion of small existing or unused five years for which figures are available. [90456] ports; and if she will make a statement. [91777] Grant Shapps: The following table shows the total Mike Penning: The Government encourages sustainable allocations of funding provided to Crisis in each of the port development that can contribute to long-term last five years of which the majority was allocated as economic growth and prosperity locally, regionally and homelessness grant (revenue). nationally. Crisis (£)

Railways: Cotswold Hills 2007-08 (Capital) 155,000 2008-09 0 2009-10 150,000 Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 2,350,000 Transport (1) whether she plans to propose revised 2011-12 4,000,000 specifications for the Cotswold line franchise to increase the frequency of trains from Great Malvern to London; Departmental Manpower [86939] (2) what additional services she plans to specify in Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the new North Cotswold line franchise invitation to Communities and Local Government what estimate he tender; [86941] has made of the number and proportion of full-time (3) when she plans to publish an invitation to tender equivalent staff in his Department engaged in delivering for the North Cotswold line franchise from 2013. (a) frontline and (b) corporate or back office services; [86942] and if he will make a statement. [91093] 323W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 324W

Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and This information, along with a regional breakdown, Local Government does not have staff engaging in is contained in the equality impact assessment available frontline service delivery; rather its role is strategic and on the DWP website at: focused on policy development and implementation. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/eia-social-sector-housing-under- As of 31 December 2011, the Department for occupation-wr2011.pdf Communities and Local Government had 1,917 staff with a full-time equivalent of 1,859 under Office for Non-domestic Rates: Empty Property National Statistics definitions of employment. However, this includes 40 full-time equivalent staff on paid leave Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for of absence, primarily on maternity leave. Communities and Local Government how much of the Excluding the staff on paid leave of absence, 1,424 full- revenue generated from empty property rates came from time equivalent staff were engaged in policy development public sector organisations in the last year for which and implementation, and the remaining 396 full-time figures are available. [91830] equivalent staff were engaged in support services. Robert Neill: This information is not held centrally. Domestic Waste I refer my hon. Friend to the answers I gave to him on 26 January 2011, Official Report, column 2MC, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities on 8 February 2011, Official Report, column 178W. and Local Government (1) how many councils have bid for specific funding to enable them to collect household Social Rented Housing waste weekly; and how many such councils currently have collection periods longer than a week; [91656] Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities (2) when he expects to make an announcement about and Local Government what estimate he has made of the allocation of funding to individual councils in the cost to the public purse of social rated housing respect of weekly bin collections. [91657] which is illegally sub-let; and how that cost is calculated. [91725] Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 18 January 2012, Official Report, column 811W, Grant Shapps: The National Fraud Authority estimates to the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). that housing tenancy fraud in England costs around £900 million a year. Homelessness This figure is based on the Audit Commission’s estimates that it costs an average of £18,000 per year to house a Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for family or individual in temporary housing and that Communities and Local Government what estimate he 50,000 properties are unlawfully occupied in England has made of the number of people sleeping rough in (which would otherwise be available for occupation). England in each month since June 2010; and if he will Recent research by housing fraud specialists HJK make a statement. [91933] Investigations has suggested that the level of such fraud could be far greater. Grant Shapps: Information on the number of people sleeping rough in England is collected by the Department Replacing the social homes that are being unlawfully for Communities and Local Government on a yearly occupied—to house those who have effectively been basis. displaced by tenancy fraudsters—would cost several billion pounds. The number of people sleeping rough in England can be found on the Department’s website at: In December 2010, the Government announced funding of £19 million over four years for social landlords to http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ tackle fraud in their stock. We are currently consulting housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/roughsleepingcounts/ on proposals that would increase the deterrent to tenants The coalition Government have acted decisively to considering cheating the system, allow those who do introduce a more accurate assessment of rough sleeping cheat to be detected more easily and punished more levels so that there is clear information in all areas, to severely and encourage social landlords to take a more inform service provision and action to address the problem. proactive approach to tackling tenancy fraud. The previous Government’s approach to assessing rough These include proposals that would mean social tenants sleeping did not capture the full extent of the problem who abuse their tenancies could be subject to criminal across the country. sanctions, with a maximum penalty of a £50,000 fine and two years imprisonment; and would allow for any Housing Benefit profits made from tenancy fraud to be confiscated and a restitutionary payment to be made to the landlord. Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Third Sector has made of the potential number of people affected by the proposed limits to housing benefit for people who Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for under-occupy their property. [90990] Communities and Local Government how much funding his Department allocated to (a) Centrepoint, (b) Crisis, Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply on behalf of (c) Skill Force and (d) Shelter in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) the Department for Work and Pensions. 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [90400] 325W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 326W

Robert Neill [holding answer 19 January 2012]: The Directive on attacks on information systems, that seeks following table shows the total allocations of funding to establish commonality of offences, minimum levels allocated to Centrepoint, Crisis, Skill Force and Shelter of punishment, and mechanisms for enhanced co-operation in 2010-11 and 2011-12. between member states to tackle these crimes. More generally we have made it clear that Governments should £ act in cyber space in accordance with existing international 2010-11 2011-12 law, and the UK Government are taking a leading role in promoting international consensus around what Centrepoint 0 0 constitutes acceptable behaviour in cyber space. The Crisis 2,350,000 4,000,000 London Conference on Cyberspace in November 2011 Skillforce 0 0 began a process for enhanced dialogue among nations Shelter 3,223,365 2,437,460 on this important issue. The UK will be represented on This funding was provided to Crisis to help single a UN Group of Government Experts meeting later this homeless people access stable accommodation in the year which will address this question in more detail. private rented sector and for Shelter to operate the New Businesses: Worcestershire National Homelessness Advice Service (a partnership between Shelter and Citizens Advice) and debt advice Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet for the Home Owners Mortgage Support Scheme. Office how many new companies were started in (a) Worcester constituency and (b) Worcestershire in each Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for of the last three years. [92162] Communities and Local Government how much funding his Department provided to (a) The Art Room, (b) the Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the National Portrait Gallery, (c) Mountain Rescue England, responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have (d) the English Schools Swimming Association, (e) the asked the authority to reply. Scout Association and (f) Missing Links UK in (i) Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [90747] As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many new companies were started in (a) Worcester constituency Robert Neill [holding answer 19 January 2012]: No and (b) Worcestershire in each of the last three years, [92162] payments have been made to these organisations during ONS does not separately produce statistics on the number of 2010-11 or thus far in 2011-12. company births, however annual statistics on the total number of enterprise births are available from the ONS release on Business Demography at: www.statistics.gov.uk CABINET OFFICE The most current statistics available are 2010. Challenge Network The table contains the latest statistics available, which show the number of enterprise births in Worcester constituency, Worcestershire County and its districts for 2008-2010. Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how much funding his Department provided to Count of births of new enterprises for 2008-10, Worcester constituency, Worcestershire county and districts The Challenge Network in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; Births and if he will make a statement. [91910] 2008 2009 2010

Mr Hurd: The Challenge Network is one of the Worcester 350 275 310 Cabinet Office’s partners for delivery of the National Constituency Citizen Service. In 2010-11 the Cabinet Office provided grant funds of £1,236,000 to The Challenge Network Worcestershire 2,435 2,015 2,175 and has current grant awards for 2011-12 with The County Challenge Network up to the total of £7,017,702. Bromsgrove 470 390 405 Malvern Hills 375 285 340 International Law: Cybercrime Redditch. 325 260 270 Worcester 350 275 310 Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Wychavon 535 465 540 Office what recent (a) multilateral and (b) bilateral Wyre Forest 380 340 310 discussions he has had with his (i) international and (ii) Note: European counterparts on establishing international The figures have been rounded to the nearest five, to avoid disclosure. law in the area of cyber security; and if he will make a statement. [91881] DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Mr Maude: In May 2011 the UK ratified the Council of Europe’s Budapest Cybercrime Convention which is EU Action the main international treaty relating to cyber crime and provides a clear legislative and procedural framework Ian Lucas: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether for international co-operation. The UK, as the current the Foreign and Commonwealth Office provided any chair of the Council of Europe, is strongly supportive resources for the organisation and hosting of the European of work by the Council to promote the Convention. Liberal Summit he hosted on 9 January 2012; and what The Government have also opted in to the draft EU the monetary value was of any such resources. [91812] 327W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 328W

The Deputy Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member Departmental Manpower to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) on Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern 25 January 2012, Official Report, column 271W. Ireland how many and what proportion of full-time equivalent staff in his Department are engaged in delivering Ian Lucas: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether (a) front line and (b) corporate or back office services; any officials from the Foreign and Commonwealth and if he will make a statement. [91077] Office were present at the European Liberal Summit he hosted on 9 January 2012; and what advice or support Mr Paterson: Frontline staff are classified as those he received from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office staff that have a role dealing primarily with the public. in advance of this event. [91813] On this basis, the NIO does not have any staff engaged in front line services. There are currently 92 members of The Deputy Prime Minister: I hosted the meeting of staff (54%) working within the Business Delivery Group European Liberal Democrats in Government in my and providing a wide range of corporate services across capacity as Leader of the Liberal Democrats. the Department. No officials from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office were present at the meeting. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office provided briefing for the bilateral TREASURY meetings held in my capacity as Deputy Prime Minister. Assets: Egypt Ian Lucas: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how many times he has visited Brussels in an official capacity Mr Slaughter: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the last year; and on which such occasions he was what assets held in the UK have been frozen at the accompanied by officials from the Foreign and request of the Egyptian Government in the last 12 months; Commonwealth Office. [91878] in each such case who the individual was who held the assets; and what the (a) type and (b) value of the assets The Deputy Prime Minister: Details of Ministers’ was. [91697] overseas travel are published on a quarterly basis. Information for the period April 2011 to June 2011 can Mr Hoban: The sanctions in respect of Egypt impose be accessed on the Cabinet Office website at: an asset freeze against 19 individuals identified as responsible http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/ministerial- for the misappropriation of Egyptian state funds. A list gifts-hospitality-travel-and-meetings-external-organisations- of these individuals is available from the Treasury website april-june http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/fin_sanctions_egypt.htm Information for the period of July 2011 to December and is reproduced here for convenience. 2011 will be published in due course. (1) Ahmed, Abla Mohamed Fawzi Ali I have been supported by the UK’s Permanent (2) Al Naggar, Shahinaz Abdel Aziz Abdel Wahab Representative to the European Union and his staff on (3) El Gammal, Khadiga Mahmoud all visits to Brussels in 2011. (4) El Gazaerly, Naglaa Abdallah (5) Eladli, Habib Ibrahim Habib (6) Eldin, Jaylane Shawkat Hosni Galal ATTORNEY-GENERAL (7) Elmaghraby, Ahmed Alaeldin Amin Abdelmaksoud Fraud (8) Ezz, Ahmed Abdelaziz (9) Fahmy, Hania Mahmoud Abdel Rahman Valerie Vaz: To ask the Attorney-General what recent (10) Garrana, Amir Mohamed Zohir Mohamed Wahed discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for (11) Garrana, Mohamed Zohir Mohamed Wahed the Home Department on which organisations the (12) Hussein, Rachid Mohamed Rachid Government proposes will in future be responsible for (13) Mubarak, Alaa Mohamed Hosni Elsayed investigating and prosecuting offences relating to serious (14) Mubarak, Gamal Mohamed Hosni Elsayed fraud. [91658] (15) Mubarak, Mohamed Hosni Elsayed The Attorney-General: There have been no recent (16) Rasekh, Heidy Mahmoud Magdy Hussein ministerial discussions. The position remains as set out (17) Sharshar, Elham Sayed Salem in ″The National Crime Agency: A plan for the creation (18) Thabet, Suzanne Saleh of a national crime-fighting capability″ which was published (19) Yassin, Khadiga Ahmed Ahmed Kamel in June 2011. For reasons of confidentiality, the Treasury is unable to disclose the information requested about individuals and their assets frozen in the UK under the Egypt NORTHERN IRELAND sanctions regime. Bill of Rights Banking

Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the (1) if he will introduce an obligation for banks to serve Northern Ireland Executive on a Bill of Rights for low and middle income communities; and if he will make a statement; [91907] Northern Ireland. [91566] (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Mr Swire: I refer the hon. Lady to the answer given communities with only one bank branch; and if he will on 24 January 2012, Official Report, column 150W. make a statement; [91908] 329W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 330W

(3) what assessment he has made of the economic Sequestrations and bankruptcies following HMRC petitions effect of bank branch closures on their local communities; England and if he will make a statement; [91909] Scotland and Wales NI Total (4) what information his Department holds on how Total 959 4,828 427 6,214 many bank branches closed in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010 and (d) 2011; and if he will make a statement. The equivalent of bankruptcy in Scotland is [91977] sequestration.

Mr Hoban: The Government do not intervene in Copyright: Internet commercial decisions as to whether, and where, banks maintain branches. Steve Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer However, Government believe that it is important for whether he has made an assessment of the likely cost to individuals to be able to access an appropriate range of the British economy of proposed US legislation, the financial products and services, and will continue to (a) Stop Online Piracy Act and (b) Protect IP Act. monitor the situation. [91610] The Government do not collect information relating Mr Vaizey: I have been asked to reply on behalf of to branch closures. the Department for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. Bankruptcy The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has made no assessment or Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer received representations on the effect on the UK of how many people were made bankrupt as a result of measures contained in the US Stop Piracy Online act. court action initiated by HM Revenue and Customs in each month since May 2010; and if he will make a EU Law statement. [91968] John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: HMRC only initiates bankruptcy or winding how many of the regulations his Department brought up action where it believes this is the best course of into force through (a) primary legislation, (b) action to protect the interests of the Exchequer in secondary legislation and (c) other means originated respect of a particular debt. HMRC does not take such from proposals by the European Commission in (i) action lightly. 2010 and (ii) 2011. [88970] Neither HMRC nor any other creditor makes individuals bankrupt. Bankruptcy orders are made by the courts. Miss Chloe Smith: EU provisions that need to be Information on how many people were made bankrupt given effect by the Treasury are transposed into UK law as a result of court action initiated by HM Revenue and via primary and secondary legislation. This information Customs in each month since May 2010 is shown in the is not aggregated. The following table provides the total following table: number of Treasury primary and secondary provisions Sequestrations and bankruptcies following HMRC petitions brought onto the statute books during 2010 and 2011 England and the numbers of such instruments which, in full or in Scotland and Wales NI Total part, give effect to EU requirements.

2010 2010 2011 May 55 229 22 306 Primary legislation 16 5 June 78 249 26 352 total July 74 256 3 333 Primary 31 August 37 229 2 268 legislation—of EU September 33 244 34 311 origin October 41 208 14 263 November 62 236 14 312 Secondary 127 143 December 46 156 11 213 legislation total Secondary 20 24 legislation—of EU 2011 origin January 57 269 30 356 February 42 177 27 246 It is not possible to ascertain whether specific measures March 49 295 32 376 originated from Commission proposals, or whether EU April 37 218 21 276 requirements were given effect via domestic measures May 57 200 18 276 other than primary or secondary legislation, without June 39 266 26 331 incurring disproportionate costs. July 44 265 3 312 Executives: Pay August 48 294 6 348 September 45 216 44 305 October 40 344 39 423 Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the November 36 282 33 351 Exchequer what steps he is taking to ensure that (a) salaries and (b) bonuses in the financial sector are in December 39 195 23 257 proportion with those of other industries. [91576] 331W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 332W

Mr Hoban: The Government have been clear that the for employers of implementing simultaneously PAYE banks must act responsibly in setting their bonuses. As real-time information and automatic enrolment into a result of Government action, remuneration of UK workplace pensions. [91308] based staff for the four major UK banks was lower in 2010 than in 2009 and lower than it would otherwise Mr Gauke [holding answer 23 January 2012]: The have been. The Financial Services Authority’s (FSA) majority of employers (including small employers) will revised Remuneration Code ensures bonuses are deferred not implement Real Time Information (RTI) and auto- over at least three years and are linked to the performance enrolment into workplace pensions at the same time. of the employee and their firm Employers will begin submitting PAYE RTI from April Greater transparency helps shareholders hold boards 2013 whereas small employers will start to carry out to account on pay. In addition to FSA rules requiring auto-enrolment into workplace pensions in June 2015. disclosure of the aggregate pay of risk-taking staff, the Given this staggered approach HMRC does not believe Government are consulting on extending executive pay these timings create any particular difficulty for employers. disclosure arrangements made under Project Merlin to The real-time reporting of PAYE information aims eight executives below board level at all large banks to reduce administrative burdens for all employers, including from this year onwards. small employers (upon whom the current burden of Measures which improve the alignment of risk and PAYE falls disproportionately). The aim is to achieve reward in the financial sector are a key element of the this by integrating employee payment and reporting to wider strategy on executive pay. The Secretary of State HMRC into a single payroll process. for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member The Government are committed to simplifying the for Twickenham (Vince Cable), announced proposals tax system and reducing the compliance costs for businesses on 23 January 2012, Official Report, columns 23-25, and HMRC is working closely with the Office for Tax covering pay governance and transparency. Simplification (OTS) to identify simplifications to the tax system, particularly, in relation to small business Internet: Sales taxation.

Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Revenue and Customs: Standards how much revenue has been raised by the Exchequer as result of the sale of (a) CDs, (b) DVDs, (c) e-books Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if and (d) songs purchased by electronic means from the he will review HM Revenue and Customs’ (HMRC) internet in each of the last five years. [91799] practices for the purpose of ensuring that small businesses do not incur a fine due to the time taken by Mr Gauke: No estimate has been made. HMRC to notify them that their returns are late. National Insurance Contributions: New Businesses [90734] Mr Gauke: HMRC works with employers and their Julian Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer representatives to help them meet statutory obligations. what recent discussions he has had on making the HMRC inform employers of their obligation to file a national insurance contribution holiday an opt-out rather Pay As You Earn (PAYE) Employer Annual Return by than opt-in scheme. [91606] the statutory deadline and the consequences of not doing so. Mr Gauke: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave him on 31 October 2011, Official Report, column HMRC is committed to continually improving its 432W. The barriers to having an opt-out rather than an processes and is actively considering a range of initiatives opt-in scheme remain. to encourage employers to file their 2011-12 PAYE Employer Annual Return on time. Changes being Julian Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer implemented so far include the retiming of the employers what steps he has taken to encourage participation in ’Notification to File’ to coincide with the end of the tax the National Insurance contribution holiday scheme. year and the introduction of a new ’Just File’ reminder which will be issued shortly before the 19 May deadline. [91607]

Mr Gauke: The Government have taken a number of Taxation: International Cooperation steps to increase the take-up of the national insurance contribution holiday scheme, including: Stephen Phillips: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer HMRC issuing personalised letters to all new businesses registered what negotiations with other countries his Department for a PAYE scheme in the eligible regions since the start of the is involved in on (a) double taxation agreements and scheme; (b) tax evasion. [91412] promoting the scheme through regional press, with agents and other business intermediaries, and on HMRC and businesslink Mr Gauke: Excluding those countries where agreements websites; and have since been signed, my officials have held negotiations relaxing the rules to allow agents to apply on behalf of a on double taxation agreements in the last two years business. with Albania, Austria, Barbados, Brunei, Canada, Croatia, Iceland, India, Liechtenstein, Malawi, New Zealand, PAYE: Pensions Norway, Peru, Singapore, Spain, Turkmenistan and the United States; and on tax information exchange agreements Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer with Andorra, Brazil, Costa Rica, the Marshall Islands what assessment he has made of the potential difficulty and the Seychelles. 333W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 334W

There have been no negotiations with other countries This Government are committed to the adult autism on tax evasion since the conclusion of the Tax Co-operation strategy and will carry out a formal evaluation of progress Agreement with Switzerland. against the strategy’s key objectives by 2013. Working Tax Credit Statutory guidance for health and social care bodies published on 17 December 2010 to support delivery of the strategy focuses on four important areas where Ann Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer health and social care can improve the way they support what assessment he has made of the effect on couples adults with autism: with children who work less than 24 hours a week of his proposals for reform of the working tax credit; increasing understanding of autism among front-line staff; whether he proposes that such couples will still be strengthening diagnosis and assessment of needs; entitled to claim working tax credit; and at what rate improving transition from child to adult services; and such a claim would be. [91537] ensuring the needs of adults with autism are included within local health and care service planning. Mr Gauke: This change makes the system fairer by ‘Fulfilling and Rewarding Lives: Evaluating Progress’, reducing the disparity in the number of hours which a self-assessment framework published on 1 April last lone parents and couples are obliged to work. year provides support to localities in delivering the Couples with children will continue to qualify for strategy and statutory guidance. This self-assessment working tax credit where at least one member of a framework should help health and social care bodies couple works at least 16 hours per week and that person identify how they are doing in terms of planning services. is eligible for the working tax credit disability element The Department has commissioned the Learning or is aged 60 or over. Disabilities Public Health Observatory to collate these Couples with children may also qualify for working self-assessments, and make them available on their website. tax credit if one member of a couple works at least The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence 16 hours a week and a qualifying sickness or disability has developed clinical guidelines for children and young benefit, for example, incapacity benefit is payable for people with autism, with further guidelines for adults the other. with autism scheduled to be published in July 2012. HMRC is not planning to make any transitional There has been no recent assessment of the adequacy arrangements or provide additional services for couples of NHS services for people with learning disabilities. with children who may lose entitlement to working tax However, this Government are committed to improving credit as a result of the change to the working hours the health of people with learning disabilities: conditions in April 2012. we have extended the contract for a Government-funded At the end of November 2011 HMRC wrote to those confidential inquiry into the premature and avoidable death of who may be affected to advise them of the change and people with learning disabilities; what they need to do if they wish to continue to qualify we are funding a specific public health observatory focussing for working tax credit. Anybody contacting HMRC on improving health care for people with learning disabilities; since then to report a change of circumstances, that and will mean they will be affected, has been given the we are continuing to support annual health checks for people same advice. with learning disabilities.

General Practitioners HEALTH Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Autism: Health Services how many applications for cross-border GP consortia have been received by the Shadow NHS Commissioning Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Board to date. [91547] (1) what recent assessment he has made of the level of qualification and experience of providers of services to Anne Milton: The NHS Commissioning Board Authority people with autism spectrum conditions; [91807] is a preparatory body aimed at preparing for the (2) what recent assessment he has made of the role of establishment of the NHS Commissioning Board, subject person-centred services for people with autistic spectrum to the passage of the Health and Social Care Bill. conditions; [91875] Therefore, it has no power to authorise clinical (3) what recent assessment he has made of the (a) commissioning groups (CCGs) and is not taking role and (b) value-for-money of autism-specific services; applications for this purpose. [91876] The Government have accepted the NHS Future (4) what recent assessment he has made of the adequacy Forum’s recommendation that the boundaries of CCGs of NHS services for people with (a) autism spectrum should not normally cross those of local authorities. conditions and (b) learning disabilities. [91877] If a commissioning group wishes to be established on the basis of boundaries that would cross local authority Paul Burstow: Those providing care—whether national boundaries, it will be expected to demonstrate to the health service, charity or private sector—have a duty to NHS Commissioning Board a clear rationale in terms make sure that care is high quality and safe. That is why of benefits for patients: for example, if it would reflect the Care Quality Commission is currently carrying out local patient flows or enable the group to take on a programme of unannounced inspections into all hospitals practices where, overall, this would secure a better service for people with learning disabilities. This work will for patients. Further, they would need to provide a clear inform the Department’s wider review. account of how they would expect to achieve better 335W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 336W integration between health and social care services. Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not maintain Further detail on how authorisation can work is set out a central record of Short Term Operating Reserve (STOR) in “Developing Clinical Commissioning Groups: Towards contracted trusts. Authorisation” (September 2011). A copy has been The STOR commitment of making available electrical placed in the Library. generation capacity is a local operational issue contracted General Practitioners: Pharmacy by an individual national health service trust or collection of trusts. Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will take steps to encourage pharmacists to National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence become involved in the GP commissioning process in order for their opinions to be considered. [91579] Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: The Government wants clinical Health what recent discussions he has had with the commissioning groups to have the flexibility to engage National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence with the full range of health and care professionals to on the accreditation process for the Duchenne Standards support the design of pathways of care and to shape of Care. [91937] services. Clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) will be required to obtain appropriate advice from a broad Paul Burstow: We have had no recent discussions range of professionals, which can include pharmacists. with the National Institute for Health and Clinical CCGs may also include pharmacists in their committees. Excellence on their accreditation process for the Duchenne Subject to the passage of the Health and Social Care standards of care. Bill, the NHS Commissioning Board will be responsible for issuing guidance to commissioning groups (to which they must have regard) on their duty to obtain appropriate NHS: Reorganisation professional advice, for example in relation to working with multi-disciplinary clinical networks and senates. Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Hospitals what his most recent estimate is of the (a) redundancy and (b) non-redundancy costs which have been incurred as a result of NHS reorganisation since (i) May 2010 Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for and (ii) January 2011. [91810] Health what steps he is taking to improve co-operation between hospital trusts to ensure efficient continuity of patient care. [91546] Anne Milton: National health service bodies are constantly in the process of reorganisation to modernise Mr Simon Burns: All national health service bodies services and improve value for money. and private and third sector providers supplying NHS The annual accounts information we collect from the services are required by the Health Act 2009 to take NHS only gives the total cost of all redundancies for a account of the NHS Constitution in their decisions and financial year, it is not broken down by category (so we actions. This includes the principle that the NHS works cannot identify redundancies relating specifically to across organisational boundaries and in partnership restructuring) and we cannot attribute any costs to a with other organisations in the interest of patients, local particular period of a year. communities and the wider population. The Health and Social Care Bill takes this further by making it clear that in exercising any of their functions, Organs: Donors commissioners must act with a view to securing that services are provided in a way that promotes the NHS Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Constitution; and with a view to securing continuous how many people in South Swindon constituency are improvement in outcomes, including effectiveness, safety registered as organ donors; and if he will make a and quality of patient experience. Commissioners must statement. [91617] also exercise their functions with a view to securing that health services are provided in an integrated way, where Anne Milton: As at 4 October 2011 there were 32,705 this would improve the quality of those services including people registered on the organ donor register in South outcomes and/or reduce inequalities in relation to access Swindon. to services and outcomes. Monitor’s overriding duty, as sector regulator for The Organ Donation Taskforce report, published in NHS health care, would be to promote economy, efficiency 2008, stated that by strengthening the donation programme and effectiveness in the provision of services, for the in the United Kingdom, organ donor rates could increase benefits of patients. Monitor would be required to by 50% by 2013. This would enable a further 1,200 people support commissioners by enabling integration of services. each year to benefit from a transplant. Significant investment in the implementation of the Hospitals: Electricity taskforce recommendations, such as more donor transplant co-ordinators and clinical leads and donation committees Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for in every acute trust, has seen donor rates rise by around Health if he will place in the Library a list of all 31% since 2008. Over 18 million people, some 29% of hospitals that are contracted to provide electricity on the United Kingdom population, have now registered demand to STOR aggregators. [91954] on the organ donor register. 337W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 338W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Commonwealth Office, the Treasury and the UK Permanent Representation to the EU, including the Departmental Drinks Permanent Representative, represented the UK.

Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for EU Countries: Visits Abroad Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much (a) his Department and (b) its public bodies have spent on (i) Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State wine, (ii) other alcoholic refreshments and (iii) bottled for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his water since May 2010. [91962] Department spent on ministerial travel to each EU member state capital in each month since October Mr Lidington: This information is not held centrally 2010. [91871] and is available only at disproportionate cost. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office undertakes a wide range of Mr Hague: Details of ministerial travel are published activities to establish and maintain contacts throughout on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website at: its network of over 250 overseas posts as well as diplomatic http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/publications-and-documents/ activity in the UK to promote and defend British interests. transparency-and-data1/hospitality Any such spending is undertaken for business reasons, and expenditure on business hospitality is kept under Pakistan: Politics and Government rigorous scrutiny to ensure value for money and effectiveness and is incurred in accordance with the principles of Managing Public Money and the Treasury handbook Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for on Regularity, Propriety and Value for Money. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the aims and objectives of policy on Pakistan are. [91817] Economic and Monetary Union Alistair Burt: The UK’s policy in Pakistan is based on five objectives. We want to work with Pakistan on Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State national security issues and counter-terrorism; helping for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Pakistan consolidate democracy; supporting Pakistan meetings have taken place at EU level to negotiate the to deliver macro-economic stability, growth and services terms of the fiscal compact in advance of the EU for its citizens and supporting Pakistan to play a constructive summit on 30 January 2012; and whether the Government role in the region. was represented at each such meeting. [91869]

Mr Hague: Three meetings of the ad hoc working Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 group on the Fiscal Stability Union have taken place: on 20 December 2011, 6 January 2012 and 12 January Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012. The proposed Treaty was also discussed at a Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many Eurogroup-plus meeting on 23 January. The British occasions his Department has intervened in order to Government have been represented at each meeting. help facilitate the return of monies held in overseas countries or banks since the enactment of the Proceeds Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State of Crime Act 2002; and in which countries. [91938] for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department has spent on investigating the legal issues Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s surrounding the use of EU institutions by non-EU global diplomatic network works on organised crime bodies since the EU summit in December 2011. [91870] issues under the lead of the Home Office, in line with the Strategic Defence and Security Review’s commitment Mr Hague: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office to “ensure that our diplomatic posts co-ordinate the (FCO) Legal Advisors department provides and obtains overseas responses at a strategic level”. However, we do advice on a wide variety of legal matters. Work for the not comment on interventions with foreign governments FCO on the legal issues to date has been absorbed in connection with police investigations, some of which within the Legal Advisors’ existing budget. may be ongoing. We do not hold figures for the number of such interventions since the enactment of the Proceeds Economic and Monetary Union: Civil Service of Crime Act 2002.

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Third Sector for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether any civil servants have been involved in official negotiations Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign with other EU countries on the fiscal compact ahead of and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department the EU summit on 30 January 2012; what the grade is taking to measure progress on the implementation of was of each such civil servant; and which department policies supporting the Big Society initiative; and if he they represented. [91868] will make a statement. [91395]

Mr Hague: UK civil servants have attended ad hoc Mr Jeremy Browne: Most of our policies are implemented working group meetings to raise issues and offer overseas, so do not fall within the domestic Big Society observations. We will not be signing up to the initiative and this aspect of our policy implementation Intergovernmental Treaty, so we are not negotiating on is not measured. We work hard to strengthen and the text. Senior civil servants from the Foreign and support civil society in all the countries that we work in. 339W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 340W

However, all HMG Departments are committed to Chris Grayling: Claimants to employment and support the initiative to open up Government supplier contracts allowance (ESA) who are deemed to be terminally ill, to smaller enterprises. We have implemented changes to with less than six months to live, will be placed directly our procurement monitoring so that we can measure into the support group, without having to undergo a the number of contracts awarded to UK small and face-to-face work capability assessment (WCA). medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). Data on the number of claimants who are currently The Foreign and Commonwealth Office makes it as in the support group on this basis are not available. easy as possible for staff to contribute to their community However, data are available on the number of terminally by giving all employees up to five days paid special leave ill claimants moving into the ESA support group. The a year for this, whether in the UK or abroad. Many staff Department regularly publishes official statistics on also choose to give up their own time to volunteer, ESA and WCA. Table 5 in the most recent publication though this is not measured. (released in January 2012) shows that, for the period March 2011 to May 2011 (the most recent data available), around 1,000 claimants were assigned to the support group on the grounds that they were terminally ill. WORK AND PENSIONS The publication can be found on the Departmental website here: Disability Living Allowance: British Nationality http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ index.php?paae=esa_wca Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what support his Department is Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work providing to British citizens previously living abroad and Pensions how many employment and support who have returned to the UK and meet the 26 week allowance applicants have undertaken a work capability residency criteria and are awaiting a decision on a assessment whilst having a statutorily-defined terminal claim for disability living allowance. [91808] illness under the terms of his Department’s DS1500 Form. [92019] Maria Miller: The Department for Work and Pensions endeavours to deal with all claims as quickly as possible. Chris Grayling: The Department considers a person Where a decision cannot be made until after the first to be terminally ill if they are diagnosed with a progressive day of entitlement to disability living allowance then an disease, and where death is a likely consequence of that arrears payment will be made to cover this period. disease and is reasonably expected within six months. Such people will be treated as having limited capability Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for for work and will not need to undergo the face to face Work and Pensions how many British citizens previously work capability assessment in order to determine eligibility living abroad who have returned to the UK and meet for employment and support allowance (ESA). the 26 week residency criteria are awaiting a decision on Additionally, they will also be treated as having limited a claim for disability living allowance. [91809] capability for work-related activity, and so will be placed in the support group of ESA where they will not be Maria Miller: While the Department for Work and expected to undertake work-related activity. Pensions holds information on outstanding claims to DLA, we are not able to provide a breakdown based on Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the requested criteria. and Pensions how many people with a statutorily-defined terminal illness under the terms of his Department’s The Department for Work and Pensions does not DS1500 Form are in the work related activity group for routinely collect or record information on where people employment and support allowance. [92020] have previously lived, or how long they have been in the country, for periods that do not affect their claim for Chris Grayling: The Department considers a person disability living allowance. to be terminally ill if they are diagnosed with a progressive disease, and where death is a likely consequence of that Employment and Support Allowance disease and is reasonably expected within six months. Such people will be treated as having limited capability Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for work, and limited capability for work-related activity, and Pensions what alternatives his Department considered and as such cannot be placed in the work related to the one-year time-limit on contributory employment activity group of employment and support allowance and support allowance; and what the reasons were for (ESA). They will be placed in the support group where not pursuing any such alternatives. [91788] they will not be expected to undertake work-related activity. They will not need to undergo the face to face Chris Grayling: I refer the hon. Member to the written work capability assessment in order to determine eligibility answer I gave the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew for ESA. George) on 5 December 2011, Official Report, column 92W. Employment and Support Allowance: Appeals

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in the employment and and Pensions how many appeals against refusal of the support allowance support group have a statutorily-defined employment and support allowance there were in terminal illness under the terms of his Department’s each month from June 2010; and if he will make a DS1500 Form. [92018] statement. [91973] 341W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 342W

Chris Grayling: The following table shows the number Number of employment and support allowance (ESA) appeals received by the Department for the period June 2010 to 2010 December 2011, the last date for which figures are June 21 available. These figures represent all ESA appeals received, July 16 including those customers appealing against the result August 16 of their work capability assessment as well as those where ESA has been refused before a claimant enters September 10 the ESA assessment phase. October 9 November 21 Note that appeals against incapacity benefit reassessment December 10 claims are not included in these figures. 2011 ESA appeals received January 9 2010 February 12 June 19,600 March 20 July 20,300 April 8 August 20,300 May 18 September 19,900 June 27 October 19,700 July 17 November 21,700 August 37 December 17,400 September 59 October 32 2011 November 26 December 14 January 15,100 February 18,200 2012 March 22,400 April 18,200 January 7 May 17,700 June 20,400 Housing Benefit July 18,700 August 18,000 Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work September 12,800 and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number October 12,800 of households in each local authority area that will be November 12,900 affected by the planned reduction in housing benefit December 12,600 because the tenants have two or more spare bedrooms. Notes: [91873] 1. Management Information System Programme (MISP) is the departmental performance management, data capture and reporting tool. This type of internal management information does not form Steve Webb: The information is not available for each part of the official statistics outputs that are released by the Department local authority area. in accordance with the UK Statistics Authority’s Code of Practice. 2. All figures have been rounded to the nearest 100. The estimated impact of changes to housing benefit Source: for working-age tenants living in the social rented sector Management Information System Programme 25 January 2012. is based upon information collected in the Department’s Family Resources Survey. Because the survey collects information from a sample of households, we cannot produce reliable estimates for the number of claimants Employment Tribunals Service: Unfair Dismissal affected by local authority area. In February 2011 the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) produced an impact assessment entitled Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work “Under-occupation of social housing”, coinciding with and Pensions how many applications for unfair dismissal the publication of the Welfare Reform Bill. The impact tribunal hearings there were in each month from June assessment can be found at: 2010; and if he will make a statement. [91961] http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under- occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf The impact assessment included a national estimate Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions of the extent to which claimants were under-occupying employs over 100,000 staff. Robust measures are in their accommodation for working age housing benefit place to ensure that all procedures are correctly followed recipients living in social housing, under-occupying their before employees are dismissed including access to a home and who were likely to be affected by the introduction Complex Case Advisory Service for managers. of the size criteria in social-rented housing in 2013-14. Since June 2010 there has been a total of 389 applications In Great Britain we estimate that approximately 150,000 for unfair dismissal tribunal hearings lodged with the working age claimants would be under occupying Department for Work and Pensions (DWP). The details accommodation by two or more bedrooms when the for each month from June 2010 are as follows: change to housing benefit is introduced in 2013-14. 343W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 344W

Housing Benefit: Autism Steve Webb: The response is derived from two data sources, for employer-based pension schemes and non Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Work employer-based pension schemes respectively. and Pensions whether his Department has conducted The numbers of employee jobs with (a) defined an assessment of the potential effects of extending the benefit and (b) defined contribution employer-based shared accommodation rate for housing benefit to those pension schemes, in each of the last five years for which under the age of 35 who suffer from autism. [91879] figures are available, are provided in the following table. These data are from the ONS’ Annual Survey of Hours Steve Webb: We are unable to complete such an and Earnings. assessment as data are not available that identifies people Note that employees may have more than one job. with autism within housing benefit. However those that The figures are for indicative purposes only and should receive the severe disability premium will be exempt as not be considered an accurate estimate of employee job will those individuals who have a non-resident overnight counts. carer or who live in certain types of supported Defined contribution pensions here include employer- accommodation. based Group Personal Pensions and Stakeholder Pensions, Further, individuals can apply to their local authority where individuals enter into a contract with a pension for a discretionary housing payment. We have trebled provider (usually an insurance company). the support for discretionary housing payments and this will enable local authorities to provide additional Million support such as allowing extra time to find suitable Employer- Employer- alternative accommodation and provide longer term based defined based defined support for vulnerable customers. benefit contribution schemes schemes Total Identity Assurance 2006 8.5 4.2 12.7 2007 8.6 4.2 12.9 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 8.6 4.2 12.7 Work and Pensions for what reason his Department has 2009 8.5 4,2 12.6 published a cancellation notice in the Official Journal of 2010 8.2 4.2 12.5 the European Union in respect of its tender for identity assurance services; and if he will make a statement. The membership numbers of non employer-based [91958] defined contribution pension schemes are provided in the following table. These include personal pensions Chris Grayling: The cancellation notice was issued in and stakeholder pensions and would not be included in order to allow a short period of further consultation the ASHE figures shown above. Data are derived from and collaborative working between my Department, HMRC’s Tables 7.4 and 7.5 as reported to HMRC by Cabinet Office and other Government Departments. pension providers. This will ensure that the Department for Work and Pensions’ identity assurance arrangements are fully coherent Million Non- with broader Government policy and intentions in this employer area, and—where appropriate—provide a suitable route based to market for other Departments. defined contribution Personal Stakeholder Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for pensions pension pension schemes schemes schemes Total Work and Pensions when he expects to issue his Department’s tender for identity assurance services; 2005-06 6.3 0.8 7.1 and what assessment he has made of the effect of the 2006-07 6.1 0.9 7.0 time taken to issue that tender on his Department’s 2007-08 5.9 0.9 6.8 programmes. [91959] 2008-09 5,6 0.9 6.5 Chris Grayling: Following a period of consultation 2009-10 5.3 0.9 6.2 and collaborative working with Cabinet Office and other Government Departments, we expect to issue the tender For both ASHE and HMRC data sources, components no later than the first week in March. Although we are may not sum to their total due to rounding. developing contingencies to mitigate the effects of any delay, we have been able to manage the impact within Social Security Benefits: Fraud the procurement process, and do not at present anticipate any effects upon dependent programmes. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many reports of benefit fraud Pensions were received through the benefit fraud report hotline in the last 12 months; and how many of these resulted Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in an investigation. [91124] and Pensions how many people were members of (a) defined benefit and (b) defined contribution pension Chris Grayling: Every call to the national benefit schemes in each of the last five years for which figures fraud hotline is assessed. The information is passed to are available. [90928] either the Fraud Investigation Service for investigation 345W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 346W leading to a prosecution or sanction if appropriate, or will be visited in the course of work to assess the likely to customer compliance teams who will correct the effects of universal credit on local authorities. [91940] benefit and start the recovery of any overpayment. In 2010-11, 251,847 allegations of suspected benefit Chris Grayling: In recognition of the importance of fraud were reported to the Hotline of which 30,516 LAs to successful delivery of UC, an LA liaison team, were referred to the Fraud Investigation Service. which included an LA secondee, has been established to build and manage our relationships with LAs, bringing Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for LA insight and expertise into the programme and Work and Pensions how much money was claimed communicating key messages back to LAs. One key back as a result of investigations carried out following aspect of building a successful rapport with LAs has reports to the benefit fraud hotline in the last been our programme of visits to individual LAs 12 months. [91125] nationwide—including four to Wales and nine to Scotland. The programme began last summer and by the end of Chris Grayling: The amount of money recovered as a March over 100 LAs will have been visited. result of investigations carried out following a report of The following list contains the names of the LAs suspected fraud to the national benefit fraud hotline is already visited up until January 2012: not available. Amber Valley However, in 2010-11 the Department recovered over Ashford £322 million of debts owed to the Department. Barking and Dagenham Universal Credit Basildon Bath Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Bedford and Pensions what progress has been made on the Birmingham testing and implementation of computer systems that Blackpool will be used to administer the universal credit. [90906] Bolton Bolton Benefits Forum Chris Grayling: Universal credit is on track and on budget Bournemouth to deliver a new benefit system fit for the 21st century Bracknell Forest from 2013. Brent While universal credit represents a huge step forward Brighton and Hove in the evolution of the working age benefits system, it is not based on new large-scale, complex IT systems. Over Bristol 60% of the total system is based on re-using existing IT, Bromley with the new developments using tried and tested IT Bromsgrove technology. Burnley Bury Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Cannock Chase Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 19 January Castlepoint 2012, Official Report, column 920W,on universal credit, what the membership of the transition working group Cheshire East on the likely effects of universal credit on local authorities Colchester is. [91939] Conwy Cornwall Chris Grayling: The Local Authority Transition Working Coventry Group membership consists of senior representatives Dartford from local authority revenues and benefits services covering England, Scotland and Wales. They are nominated by Dundee City the Local Authority Associations, Convention of Scottish Dundee Benefits forum Local Authorities and Welsh Local Government Durham Association. In addition there are several representatives East Devon from local authorities who have expressed an interest in East Riding of Yorkshire working with my Department on welfare reform impacts. Edinburgh There are also representatives from my Department, Enfield Department for Communities and Local Government, Scottish Government and Welsh Assembly Government. Erewash The terms of reference for the group and minutes Falkirk from the meetings are published on my Department’s Fife website: Flintshire www.dwp.gov.uk/local-authority-staff/universal-credit- Fylde information/local-authority-transition-working/ Glasgow Great Yarmouth Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 19 January Guildford 2012, Official Report, column 920W,on universal credit, Hackney which local authorities (a) have been visited and (b) Hammersmith and Fulham 347W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 348W

Harlow Northumberland Harrogate Oxford City Harrow Pembrokeshire Hertfordshire Salford Hinckley and Bosworth Sandwell Inverclyde Sefton Isle of Anglesey South Kesteven Isle of Wight South Northampton Islington South Oxfordshire and The Vale White Horse Kent South Somerset Kings Lynn Stour Valley Kirklees Wyre Valley. Knowsley Housing associations visited: Lambeth Amicus Horizon Leeds Guinness Leicester East Thames Housing Lewisham Knightstone. Liverpool Welfare Reform Bill Newcastle North Devon Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work North Lincolnshire and Pensions what assessment his Department has made North Warwickshire of the effects of the provisions of the Welfare Reform North Yorkshire Bill on levels of subjective well-being of children. Northampton [90930] Perth and Kinross Maria Miller: I refer the hon. Member to the response Poole I gave on 20 January 2012, Official Report, columns Renfrewshire 1020-21W. Ribble Valley Work Experience Rushmoor Sevenoaks Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Sheffield Work and Pensions what information his Department Shepway collects on the ratio of work placements to job interviews Shropshire undertaken under the sector-based work academy scheme. South Norfolk [91960] Southampton Chris Grayling: Information on the number of claimants Stockport participating in the sector-based work academy scheme Surrey will be published later in the year. Tameside Tonbridge Warrington HOME DEPARTMENT West Norfolk Asylum: Egypt West Somerset Wiltshire Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the Wrexham Home Department how many members of the former Wyre Forest. Egyptian Government have claimed political asylum in Visits booked between February and March 2012: the UK. [91694] Angus Damian Green: The information requested could be Calderdale obtained only by the detailed examination of individual Cleethorpes case records at disproportionate cost. Darlington Travel Requirements Derbyshire Dales Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Grimsby Home Department what the (a) quickest and (b) Hull slowest times taken to process an application for a Luton convention travel document submitted in each of the Merton years from 2000 to 2010 were. [91700] Mid-Devon Damian Green: The information in the format requested Middlesbrough could be obtained only by the detailed examination of New Forest individual records at disproportionate cost. 349W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 350W

However the published targets for processing applications fully all such complaints. We await the final reports of for Home Office travel documents are 70% within international election observation missions, including 20 working days and 98% in 70 working days. the European Union and Carter Center missions. Developing Countries: Diseases

WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent assessment he Civil Partnerships: Ceremonies has made of the effectiveness of his Department’s programmes to tackle non-communicable diseases in Jim Shannon: To ask the Minister for Women and developing countries. [91621] Equalities (1) what recent discussions she has had with (a) the Church of England and (b) other church Mr O’Brien: The Department for International groups on same sex marriages in church; [92353] Development’s health focus is to improve the provision (2) what representations she has received from the of basic health services for the poorest by supporting Church of England on same sex marriages in church. health systems strengthening, health worker capacity [92354] and access to essential medicines. Increasing coverage, equity, access and quality within the health system will Lynne Featherstone: The Government will publish a strengthen services to identify, prioritise and address all formal consultation on equal civil marriage in March causes of ill health including non-communicable diseases. 2012. I have met with a wide range of organisations We regularly monitor our programmes to ensure that ahead of this consultation including with representatives they are meeting their objectives. from the following church organisations: Church of The Global Status report on Non-communicable diseases England, Catholic Church, the Evangelical Alliance, 2010, published in 2011 by the World Health Organisation Christian Institute, Quakers and Unitarian and Free (WHO), contains information on the most cost effective Christian Churches. Discussions have been held and are approaches for tackling non-communicable diseases ongoing with other organisations including those (NCDs), as well as information on the availability of representing other faith groups, non-religious groups procedures to treat NCDs in the different regions of the and lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender groups. world. This consultation will not propose any changes to religious marriage. Same-sex couples will not be able, Developing Countries: Multinational Companies under these proposals, to have a marriage through a religious ceremony on religious premises. Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether his Department works in partnership with (a) Nestlé and (b) other multinational companies on programmes in developing INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT countries. [91619]

Burkina Faso: Poverty Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Development (DFID) is not working directly in partnership Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for with Nestlé on programmes in developing countries. International Development what estimate his Department DFID does support Fairtrade International, who work has made on the number of people living in poverty in with Nestlé on their Fairtrade products. Burkina Faso. [92228] DFID works in partnership with a range of multinational companies through our bilateral and multilateral Mr O’Brien: According to the latest available data programmes, including the Africa Enterprise Challenge from the World Bank (2003), it is estimated that 56.5% Fund, Business Innovation Facility and Business Call out of Burkina Faso’s total population of 16.5 million to Action. are living below the international poverty line of $1.25 per day. Diseases The Department for International Development (DFID) does not have an aid programme or a presence in Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Burkina Faso. International Development what assessment he has made of levels of (a) cardiovascular disease, (b) cancer, (c) Democratic Republic of Congo: Elections chronic lung diseases and (d) diabetes in (i) Eastern and Southern Africa, (ii) West and Central Africa, Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for (iii) the Middle East and North Africa, (iv) South Asia, International Development what assessment he has (v) Central Asia, (vi) East Asia and the Pacific, (vii) the made of the conduct of the recent elections in the Caribbean, (viii) Europe, (ix) Latin America and (x) the Democratic Republic of Congo. [91964] UK’s Overseas Territories. [91620]

Mr Andrew Mitchell: President Kabila was inaugurated Mr O’Brien: The Department for International as President of Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) Development (DFID) tracks the burden of non- on 20 December. Her Majesty’s ambassador attended communicable diseases through the Global Status report the inauguration. We remain concerned about reports published by the World Health Organisation (WHO). of irregularities during the electoral process and call on The 2010 report, which was published in 2011, contains CENI (the DRC Electoral Commission) to investigate information on the burden of non-communicable diseases 351W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 352W

(NCDs) by the six WHO regions. In addition it contains Mr Duncan: Because of the uncertainty around the information on the extent of the underlying risk factors environment in which we will be delivering our aid for NCDs, such as tobacco use and high blood pressure. programme next year, we are not yet in a position to The report also includes country specific data and can confirm our proposed assistance to Yemen for 2012-13. be seen at We are hopeful that political transition progresses http://www.who.int/nmh/publications/ncd_report2010/en/ successfully and that we are able to scale up our aid to Yemen significantly. Members: Correspondence JUSTICE Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development when his Department plans Appeals: Hull to respond to the letter of 5 October 2011 and email of 10 November 2011 from the hon. Member for Basildon Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for and Billericay regarding a constituent, Mr James Lowe. Justice (1) what the average length of time was from [91882] receipt of (a) an income support, (b) a tax credits and (c) a disability living allowance appeal to the clearance Mr Andrew Mitchell: My hon. Friend’s letter to the or disposal of the case (i) nationally and (ii) at the Hull Minister of State, Department for International venue in each month since April 2008; [91553] Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for (2) what the average length of time taken was from Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan), of 5 October was receipt of an appeal under the Mental Health Act 1983 transferred to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the clearance or disposal of the case (a) nationally (FCO) for reply, since the questions from Mr James and (b) at the Hull venue in each month since April Lowe covered the Israel/Palestine conflict which is an 2008; [91554] FCO lead. The FCO Minister responsible for our relations with the middle east, my hon. Friend the Member (3) what the average length of time taken was from for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), replied on receipt of an immigration appeal to the clearance or 31 October on behalf of the Government. disposal of the case (a) nationally and (b) at the Hull venue in each month since April 2008. [91555] Somalia: International Co-operation Mr Djanogly: The Social Security and Child Support (SSCS) Tribunal, the Mental Health (MH) Tribunal Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for and the Immigration and Asylum (IA) Tribunal each International Development what international development hear appeals of different types and complexity, have objectives he has set for the international conference on different requirements for the composition of panels Somalia on 23 February 2012. [91965] and different hearing lengths, all of which has an impact on the time taken to dispose of cases. The waiting times Mr O’Brien: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I are therefore not directly comparable between jurisdictions. gave him on 12 January 2012, Official Report, column The following tables show the average time taken in 429W. weeks from receipt of an appeal by Her Majesty’s Court and Tribunals Service until the date of disposal Yemen: Overseas Aid of the case nationally and in Hull (except for the Mental Health Tribunal, for which it is not possible to provide Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for International data specific to Hull as its database does not store Development how much aid his Department has allocated information by area, hospital or NHS Trust) in each to Yemen for 2012. [91135] month since April 2008.

Social Security and Child Support appeals—average waiting times in weeks

Weeks

2008-09

Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

National

Income support 8.5 9.6 9.4 9.4 9.9 10.7 9.7 12.8 13.0 13.9 13.2 14.0

Tax credits 8.2 17.3 8.0 8.1 18.4 9.5 8.6 12.2 15.2 12.0 12.4 11.7

Disability living 10.5 11.0 11.3 11.8 11.8 12.1 11.9 14.1 14.0 15.5 15.3 15.3 allowance (DLA)

Hull

Income support 11.5 9.9 15.3 14.9 16.6 14.8 7.4 8.7 12.5 39.8 9.2 13.4

Tax credits 3.8 4.3 6.6 22.0 0.0 2.7 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.7 0.0 353W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 354W

Social Security and Child Support appeals—average waiting times in weeks Weeks 2008-09 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

DLA 14.3 10.4 13.0 12.2 11.0 12.8 11.0 17.1 15.1 17.3 15.5 14.5

Weeks 2009-10 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

National Income support 14.6 15.1 16.7 16.1 15.2 16.5 16.0 16.8 16.8 16.5 16.7 17.7 Tax credits 14.6 13.6 12.1 11.6 11.7 12.6 13.5 15.7 17.0 17.3 14.3 22.7 DLA 15.7 15.3 15.5 15.9 15.2 15.5 15.9 16.4 16.0 17.3 18.2 18.9

Hull Income support 8.5 10.6 11.5 10.0 22.4 15.5 10.5 15.5 15.1 22.7 11.1 15.9 Tax credits 15.1 9.4 19.2 18.5 3.4 0.0 0.0 23.0 10.3 0.0 0.0 17.7 DLA 14.9 0.0 11.0 13.1 19.3 14.1 12.2 13.9 13.7 20.8 16.2 17.5

Weeks 2010-11 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

National Income support 18.0 17.3 17.4 19.7 18.7 20.2 20.6 19.6 20.1 20.3 22.7 24.5 Tax credits 12.7 12.4 13.7 13.9 16.2 15.9 15.6 16.0 16.1 17.6 17.3 16.7 DLA 19.8 19.5 20.3 21.2 21.6 21.6 22.3 22.8 23.7 26.3 25.7 27.6

Hull Income support 15.3 10.7 20.6 19.3 11.9 34.5 26.7 19.2 21.9 7.6 26.0 16.5 Tax credits 4.0 0.0 18.1 0.0 15.3 20.0 18.5 18.9 7.6 24.0 0.0 2.4 DLA 17.4 19.4 23.2 22.1 23.6 22.8 21.0 24.6 25.8 19.5 24.0 29.3

Weeks 2011 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct

National Income support 22.9 25.2 24.8 26.3 27.4 26.6 25.4 Tax credits 16.6 18.2 16.0 19.3 18.8 19.5 17.4 DLA 27.9 28.3 28.5 29.1 28.7 28.2 28.3

Hull Income support 8.8 7.9 24.4 20.1 10.4 22.1 8.3 Tax credits 1.0 9.2 13.0 6.8 0.0 1.6 2.4 DLA 23.0 24.5 24.8 28.7 28.5 31.1 31.2 Note: Individual cases can have a disproportionate impact on the overall data at venue level due to the relatively low volumes involved. Figures are available for October 2011 for SSCS but not for MH or IA. This is because statistics were, exceptionally, published for SSCS from January until October 2011.

Waiting times within the SSCS tribunal have increased Mental Health appeals—average waiting times as a result of increased numbers of appeals following reforms in the welfare benefit system. Appeals to the The First-tier Tribunal Mental Health hears applications SSCS tribunal in 2010-11 were over 70% higher than and references for people detained under the Mental they were in 2008-09. The SSCS tribunal has responded Health Act 1983 (as amended by the Mental Health Act strongly by increasing its capacity to deal with the 2007) or living in the community following the making increased workload. It has increased the number of of a conditional discharge, or a community treatment tribunal sessions held, recruited administrative staff, or guardianship order. judges and other panel members, introduced more efficient processes and extended opening times. Additional panel Section 2 cases are appeals made by an individual members for the Hull venue have been appointed and against their admission to a secure hospital for assessment. will take up their roles in the spring. This will further Hearings must take place within seven days of receipt improve capacity at Hull. of the appeal application by the tribunal. 355W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 356W

‘Restricted’: Appeals against restriction orders (from The following tables show national data only. The a court) or a restriction direction (e.g. for a prisoner Mental Health Tribunal database does not store information transferred to hospital). by area, hospital or NHS trust so it is not possible to ‘Non-restricted’: Appeals against the application of provide data specific to Hull. provisions of the Mental Health Act 1983 (as amended by the Mental Health Act 2007) which do not fall into the above two categories.

Mental Health—average waiting times in weeks Weeks 2008-09 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

Section 2 2 2 2221111111 Restricted 16 16 16 16 14 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 Non- 1099998888888 restricted

Weeks 2009-10 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

Section 2 1 1 1110111111 Restricted 15 14 14 14 13 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 Non- 888889999999 restricted

Weeks 2010-11 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

Section 2 1 1 1111111111 Restricted 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 13 Non- 899999999998 restricted

Weeks 2011 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep

Section 2 1 1 1111 Restricted 14 13 13 13 13 12 Non-restricted 8 8 7888 Note: The Mental Health Tribunal database does not provide statistics on waiting times. The figures provided are therefore estimates based on time bands rather than on the exact length of time taken in individual cases.

Immigration appeals—average waiting times discrimination grounds, arising from the points-based The Immigration and Asylum jurisdiction deals with system for visa applications. appeals against refusal decisions by the UK Border Managed migration appeals are made by people who Agency (UKBA), acting for the Secretary of State for are already in the UK and are either seeking to stay the Home Department, on matters of immigration and permanently or to stay longer than they are currently nationality. entitled to. Immigration entry clearance officer appeals (ECO) are appeals made by people who are not in the UK, but The figures provided are for the Bradford tribunal who have applied to live here permanently. They also venue, which hears appeals from appellants from Hull include appeals based on specific human rights or racial as well as other nearby locations.

Immigration and Asylum—average waiting times in weeks Weeks 2008-09 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

National Immigration ECO 26.0 26.3 26.3 27.9 27.4 27.2 26.8 26.1 26.8 27.9 27.5 26.5 Managed migration 9.3 9.2 9.5 8.9 9.2 8.8 8.9 8.4 8.2 8.9 8.4 8.4 357W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 358W

Immigration and Asylum—average waiting times in weeks Weeks 2008-09 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

Bradford tribunal venue Immigration ECO 24.8 24.7 24.8 26.1 26.3 27.8 27.1 26.3 27.0 26.4 28.1 26.3 Managed migration 7.4 8.5 9.0 7.7 8.0 8.8 9.4 9.3 10.9 8.7 9.3 8.1

Weeks 2009-10 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

National Immigration ECO 27.7 28.2 30.0 32.1 31.1 31.5 34.2 34.2 34.9 34.7 31.7 33.4 Managed migration 8.7 9.0 9.6 9.4 9.2 9.9 10.0 10.0 12.4 13.2 12.9 15.8

Bradford tribunal venue Immigration ECO 26.5 27.6 30.3 29.5 28.3 31.2 32.7 31.9 35.4 35.1 34.4 33.4 Managed migration 7.0 8.7 10.4 9.1 9.4 9.0 9.9 8.5 9.9 10.3 9.5 9.3

Weeks 2010-11 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar

National Immigration ECO 29.7 28.2 29.0 31.7 31.0 28.8 28.7 29.6 25.2 25.7 27.6 26.5 Managed Migration 15.0 17.3 16.7 17.1 16.8 16.0 15.1 13.7 11.6 11.3 10.8 9.7

Bradford tribunal venue Immigration ECO 29.7 26.5 27.0 28.8 27.7 27.2 26.7 24.2 25.4 28.0 25.6 27.5 Managed migration 9.0 11.0 10.9 9.5 8.1 9.4 7.2 8.2 11.5 10.6 9.5 8.1

Weeks 2011-12 Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep

National Immigration ECO 26.7 31.7 28.9 28.0 26.8 25.0 Managed migration 9.2 9.9 12.3 11.3 8.5 8.5

Bradford tribunal venue Immigration ECO 26.6 27.0 26.8 23.8 26.7 28.8 Managed migration 7.8 10.0 10.0 7.4 7.3 9.7

Criminal Injuries Compensation To ensure CICA’s application of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme is as robust as possible all applicants can ask for a review of their case if they are unhappy Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice with the decision. If the applicant remains unhappy what the average number of days was between (a) after the review they can appeal to the first-tier tribunal. application and decision on eligibility and (b) decision Since decisions at review or appeal are not bound by the on eligibility and payment for those seeking compensation previous decisions on eligibility or quantum, the figures from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority in for the answer to (b) reflect the average number of days each year from 1997 to 2011 inclusive. [91500] between CICA (or the first-tier tribunal) making the decision the applicant ultimately accepted and CICA Mr Djanogly: CICA’s database does not distinguish receiving the applicant’s formal acceptance (all applicants between decisions on eligibility and quantum because have 90 calendar days in which to return this). claims officers must decide both before they can record a decision on the database. The following table shows Figures for earlier years are artificially lower because the average number of calendar days between CICA the tariff scheme was only established in 1996, so cases receiving an application and a decision for cases decided that took several years to decide will raise the average of in each calendar year, in answer to (a). the years in which they were decided. 359W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 360W

Average calendar days Average calendar days to Number of cases Number of to decision (a) accept an offer (b) refused for awards reduced unspent for unspent Total value of 1997 215 22 convictions (a) convictions (b) awards paid (£) 1998 250 24 1999 2,230 1,484 3,121,781 1999 253 26 2000 2,430 1,312 2,833,142 2000 252 27 2001 2,615 1,275 3,156,815 2001 284 28 2002 2,796 1,405 3,642,210 2002 297 28 2003 2,570 1,453 4,198,745 2003 311 28 2004 2,840 1,454 4,064,390 2004 305 28 2005 3,478 1,408 4,789,529 2005 342 30 2006 3,717 1,528 5,709,034 2006 356 29 2007 3,838 1,604 5,518,840 2007 372 49 2008 3,818 1,997 8,293,260 2008 322 32 2009 4,445 3,133 12,257,770 2009 310 55 2010 4,230 2,928 11,798,506 2010 239 33 2011 3,726 3,092 14,904,760 2011 243 32

Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority how many applications for criminal injuries compensation were received from applicants serving custodial sentences Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice or on remand in each year from 1997 to 2011 inclusive; how much funding he allocated to the Criminal Injuries for what reasons; and what total value of compensation Compensation Authority in each year from 1997 to was paid to those applicants in each year. [91501] 2011. [90754] Mr Djanogly: CICA do not hold that information in Mr Djanogly: The funding allocated to the Criminal their central database. Paragraphs 13 (l)(e) and 14(3) of Injuries Compensation Authority (CICA) for each year the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme 2008, when from 1997 to 2011 is shown in the following table: taken together, mean that a claims officer must reduce or withhold compensation if the applicant has unspent Financial year Funds allocated (£ million) criminal convictions unless there are exceptional reasons not to do so. Previous schemes had similar provisions. 1997-98 84.0 CICA publish the specific guidance their claims officers 1998-99 114.6 use to deal with unspent criminal convictions. That 1999-2000 115.8 guidance shows that serving prisoners incur a 100% 2000-01 193.8 reduction so it is unlikely that CICA will compensate a 2001-02 223.0 serving prisoner. 2002-03 227.1 2003-04 215.6 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2004-05 183.0 how many applications for criminal injuries compensation 2005-06 193.4 were (a) ruled out because the applicant had a criminal 2006-07 199.1 record and (b) granted to applicants with a criminal 2007-08 224.5 record in each year from 1997 to 2011 inclusive; and what total value of compensation was paid to those 2008-09 254.5 2009-10 254.2 with a criminal record in each year. [91502] 2010-11 294.5 Mr Djanogly: The figures are given in the following Please note, the table: table. These figures reflect only cases where a claims officer reduced or withheld an award due to unspent includes the capital funding and working capital grants provided convictions because that is the only data CICA’s central to CICA to pay approved compensations, which have been accrued in the previous period. The working capital grant in database holds regarding criminal records. The current 2010-11 was £20 million; (2008) compensation scheme says claims officers must refuse or reduce compensation where the applicant has excludes the Scottish Government contribution towards its proportion of the costs of administering the scheme and for unspent convictions unless there are exceptional reasons the full cost of all tariff compensation payments where the not do so. But there are cases still being considered injury was sustained in Scotland; under previous schemes that didn’t make such reductions excludes funds allocated to the Criminal Injuries Compensation compulsory. The number of awards paid to those with Board, which the authority effectively superseded in 1996 but unspent convictions is therefore likely to be higher— which continued to pay for legacy cases and produce separate particularly for the years before 2008. accounts until 1999-2000—which is why the authority’s funds are lower for these years. Number of cases Number of As the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme is refused for awards reduced unspent for unspent Total value of demand-led, the Department keeps the Criminal Injuries convictions (a) convictions (b) awards paid (£) Compensation Authority’s funding requirements under constant review. In addition to the funding provided at 1997 1,879 714 1,252,378 the supplementary stages, in certain years the Department 1998 2,840 1,233 2,504,845 also provides CICA with additional funding after the 361W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 362W

Spring (Final) Supplementary to settle those cases which for late payment. The order was due to be paid by have become ready for decision and payment before the 27 March 2011. The order was paid in full by the end end of the year. of June 2011 and the accrued interest was paid on 10 August 2011. Criminal Proceedings Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which offences are triable only in (a) Crown courts and Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) magistrates’ courts; and which offences are triable Justice how many convicted criminals had their sentences in either magistrates’ or Crown courts. [91506] increased for non-payment of money owed under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 in each year since its Mr Djanogly: The information requested is to be enactment. [91966] found in the “Criminal Justice Statistics”, but as the relevant table is available only online, at Mr Blunt: Information requested is not held as separate http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/publications/statistics- data on the court system that can be extracted without and-data/criminal-justice-stats/offence-classifications.xls an individual search of each confiscation order record. a copy of it has been placed in the Library of both Houses. The first part of the table shows indictable Solicitors: Harrow offences, of which those marked TEW are triable either in the Crown court or summarily, and the remainder are Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice triable only in the Crown court; the second part of the what estimate he has made of the number of firms of table lists offences that are triable only summarily. solicitors in the London borough of Harrow with legal aid contracts in (a) 2011-12 and (b) 2012-13; for what Number of cases Number of refused for awards reduced purposes these contracts are held; and if he will make a unspent for unspent Total value of statement. [91934] convictions (a) convictions (b) awards paid (£)

1997 1,879 714 1,252,378 Mr Djanogly: There are 25 provider offices with legal 1998 2,840 1,233 2,504,845 aid contracts in Harrow in the financial years 2011-12 1999 2,230 1,484 3,121,781 and 2012-13. Of these, eight have an active crime contract, 2000 2,430 1,312 2,833,142 15 have an active civil contract and two have both a 2001 2,615 1,275 3,156,815 crime and civil contract. 2002 2,796 1,405 3,642,210 Family services are not currently included in the civil 2003 2,570 1,453 4,198,745 contract. The outcome of the recent family (and family 2004 2,840 1,454 4,064,390 with housing) tender will be announced in February 2005 3,478 1,408 4,789,529 and will show provision for 2012-13. 2006 3,717 1,528 5,709,034 In addition to face to face services, the public can get 2007 3,838 1,604 5,518,840 help with civil and family problems through community 2008 3,818 1,997 8,293,260 legal advice which includes telephone and internet based 2009 4,445 3,133 12,257,770 services. 2010 4,230 2,928 11,798,506 2011 3,726 3,092 14,904,760 Work Capability Assessment Legal Aid Scheme Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the total cost has been of Tribunal Service Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for operations relating to appeals in respect of the work Justice how many case starts were awarded legal aid in capability assessment in 2011-12 to date. [91935] each local authority in England and Wales in each of the last five years. [91567] Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against Department Mr Djanogly: The information requested is not readily for Work and Pensions decisions on entitlement to available and could be provided only at disproportionate employment and support allowance (ESA) (decisions in cost. which the work capability assessment is a key factor) rather than appeals against work capability assessment Manoucehr Bahmanzadeh decisions themselves. The estimated total cost of the 112,320 ESA appeals Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for disposed of from April 2011 to October 2011 in which Justice whether the £1 million which Manoucehr the work capability assessment was a factor is £26.844 Bahmanzadeh was ordered by Plymouth Crown court million. to pay under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, following These estimated costs were calculated by multiplying his sentencing on 21 July 2008, has been paid. [91951] the average cost of an individual first-tier tribunal—Social Security and Child Support case in 2010-11 (the latest Mr Blunt: The confiscation order of £1 million in the period for which these data are available)—by the number name of Manoucehr Bahmanzadeh has been paid in of ESA appeals disposed of in which the work capability full, plus an additional £19,977.60 of accrued interest assessment was a factor. 363W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 364W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The level of fines was carefully reviewed by Parliament during the passage of the Companies Act 2006, and it Apprentices: Agriculture decided to have two penalty scales, one for public companies, who must file within six months, and one for private companies, who must file within nine months of their Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, year end. Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is As part of the Government’s Red Tape Challenge taking to support agricultural apprenticeships and programme all regulations relating to company law are vocational training in the agricultural sector. [91765] open to review by the public including those relating to late filing penalties. Mr Hayes: The Apprenticeship Programme is our preferred vocational route. It is demand led, therefore Copyright: Internet expanding and improving the Apprenticeship offer depends on businesses taking the opportunity to employ apprentices. Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, The National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) works Innovation and Skills whether he has made an assessment with employers and training providers to increase their of the potential effect of proposed US legislation, the participation in Apprenticeship delivery and are particularly (a) Stop Online Piracy Act and (b) Protect IP Act on working with Land Based Training, (LANTRA), the British businesses. [91611] sector skills council for Land based and Environmental Industries, to increase growth of Apprenticeships in Mr Vaizey: I have been asked to reply on behalf of agricultural areas. the Department for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. Recent announcements on measures to expand The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media opportunities and boost the quality of Apprenticeships and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South apply across all sectors. In particular, up to 40,000 incentive West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has made no assessment or payments of £1,500 will be made available for small received representations on the effect on the UK of employers who take on their first new young apprentice. measures contained in the US Stop Piracy Online Act. This may be particularly relevant to the Agricultural sector. Departmental Apprentices We have seen growth in the number of Apprenticeship starts in Agriculture, Horticulture and Animal Care Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, sector in the 2010/11 academic year, based on provisional Innovation and Skills how much funding his Department data (Table 1). allocated to sponsor apprenticeships in his Department Table 1: Apprenticeship starts in the agriculture, horticulture and in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and how much such animal care sector subject area, 2008/09 to 2010/11 (provisional data) funding he plans to allocate in 2012-13. [89150] Apprenticeship starts Mr Hayes: The core Department for Business, Innovation 2008/09 5,210 and Skills allocated the following funding to sponsor 2009/10 5,690 apprenticeship in the Department in: 2010/11 (provisional) 6,870 (a) 2010-11—£20,000 Note: All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. (b) 2011-12—£50,000 Source: and plans to allocate between £10,000 and £15,000 in Individualised Learner Record 2012-13. Information on the number of Apprenticeship starts is published in a quarterly Statistical First Release Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 27 October 2011: Business, Innovation and Skills how many apprentices http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ were employed by his Department between (a) April statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current 2010 and March 2011 and (b) April and December Information on Apprenticeship starts by framework 2011; and how many apprenticeships he plans that his and sector subject areas are available in the SFR Department will sponsor between (i) January and Supplementary Tables: March 2012 and (ii) April and March 2013. [89205] http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Mr Hayes: The core Department for Business, Innovation statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary_tables/ and Skills employed 30 apprentices between April 2010 and March 2011 and 14 apprentices between April and December 2011. The Department has no plans to sponsor Company Accounts additional apprentices between January and March 2012. The Department currently anticipates sponsoring between Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, six and 10 apprentices between April 2012 and March Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to adjust the 2013. filing penalties in Section 453 of the Companies Act 2006 to take account of the size of the company. [92218] Employment: Arbitration

Mr Davey: The level of fine imposed for the late filing Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for of accounts depends on how late the accounts are Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions submitted to the Registrar. he has had with the Secretary of State for Justice on a 365W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 366W rapid resolution scheme for employment disputes; and Higher Education if he will make a statement. [91861] Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Davey: Officials in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the speech to the Innovation and Skills are working closely with Her Policy Exchange of 4 January 2012 by the Minister of Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service and Ministry of State for Universities and Science, which UK universities Justice colleagues to consider whether and how any are in the top 100 in the world. [91289] rapid resolution scheme might work. We will consult with key stakeholders as we develop options in more Mr Willetts: The UK universities in the top 100 of detail and will undertake a full public consultation on the rankings referred to in the Policy Exchange speech the detail once this work is complete. are as follows: The World University Rankings 2011-12 (12 universities) Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Oxford (4), Cambridge (6), Imperial College (8), UCL (17), Business, Innovation and Skills what progress he has Edinburgh (36), LSE (47), Manchester (48), King’s College made on developing a simplified form of compromise (56), Bristol (66), Durham (83), St Andrews (85), Sussex (99) agreements following the Government’s response to the QS World University Rankings 2011-12 (19 universities) resolving workplace disputes consultation. [91862] Cambridge (1), Oxford (5), Imperial College (6), UCL (7), Edinburgh (20), King’s College (27), Manchester (29), Bristol Mr Davey: Officials in the Department for Business, (30), Warwick (50), Glasgow (59), LSE (64), Birmingham (67), Innovation and Skills are considering how we can develop Sheffield (72), Nottingham (74), Southampton (75), Leeds a standard text, together with the appropriate guidance, (93), Durham (95), York (96), St Andrews (97) that will be available to parties to use should they wish ARWU 2011 (10 universities) to settle an employment dispute without proceeding to Cambridge (5), Oxford (10), UCL (20), Imperial College (24), a Tribunal. We will make an announcement in due Manchester (38), Edinburgh (53), King’s College (68), Bristol course. (70), Nottingham (85), Sheffield (97) Higher Education: Admissions Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, receive the report of Justice Underhill on the review of Innovation and Skills how many people in each rules and procedures for employment tribunals. [91863] parliamentary constituency applied to study at Oxford and Cambridge universities in 2011. [88821] Mr Davey: I have invited Mr Justice Underhill to present BIS Ministers with recommendations for revised Mr Willetts: The information is shown in a table rules of procedure for employment tribunals by the end provided by the Universities and Colleges Admissions of April 2012. Service (UCAS) which will be placed in the Library of the House. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the timetable is Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for for the consultation on protected conversations. [91864] Business, Innovation and Skills how many applications to and offers by each (a) Russell Group and (b) 1994 Mr Davey: We expect to launch a consultation on Group university were made in the 2010-11 admissions protected conversations later this year. cycle to home students in each local education authority (LEA) area; and how many and what proportion of such applicants and other recipients in each LEA were Green Investment Bank educated at (i) maintained and (ii) independent schools. [88928] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what timetable he has Mr Willetts: The information is not available centrally. set for consideration of proposals for the site of the The University and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS), Green Investment Bank; and whether he plans to publish hold the information but they have advised that they a shortlist before the site is chosen. [91818] cannot release it because the publication of such detailed information for individual institutions would be potentially disclosive of individuals. Mr Prisk: More than 20 locations across the UK have indicated that they would be interested in hosting Manufacturing Industries the headquarters of the Green Investment Bank (GIB). Interested locations have been asked to self-assess Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for against a common set of criteria, to demonstrate whether Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on they would be an effective base for the GIB. The deadline support for the manufacturing sector; and if he will for the submission of self assessments is 30 January. All make a statement. [91342] self assessments received will be reviewed by the Department. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation Mr Prisk: We fully recognise the importance of and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham manufacturing, its vital contribution to the growth of a (Vince Cable), will then publish his decision, with more sustainable UK economy and its key role in accompanying reasons, in February. All submissions rebalancing the economy. Working with business, we received will also be published. are taking steps to strengthen UK manufacturing’s 367W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 368W capability, ensuring a better business environment that (a) Number of UK national patent applications filed by region 2006 will address barriers to growth, encourage innovation, to 2010 exports and business investment, build UK supply chains Region 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 and improve skills. The Government have put in place a Postcode 254 425 245 215 192 range of initiatives to support manufacturing growth, not including the Manufacturing Advisory Service, the Regional given/ Growth Fund, Higher Level Apprenticeships and Catapult incomplete Centres. address Total 17,484 17375 16,523 15,985 15,490 As part of the Autumn Statement of 29 November 2011, Official Report, columns 799-810, we announced (b) Number of UK national patents granted by region 2006 to 2010 a package worth £250 million that will reduce the Region 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 impact of energy and climate change policies on the East 128 96 109 114 111 cost of electricity for those energy intensive industries, Midlands whose international competitiveness is most affected by East of 371 284 272 302 288 these policies. In addition, on 6 December we launched England a £125 million challenge fund to boost UK advanced London 524 316 361 292 382 manufacturing supply chains. North 254 187 167 192 201 We are making good progress in implementing the West actions announced as part of the Advanced Manufacturing Northern 13 11 10 11 7 Growth Review: we have already met just under 50% of Ireland the reforms announced in March and reached significant North 82 33 32 37 41 milestones on the rest. However we want to continue East engaging with industry to adapt and develop our policies Scotland 138 130 117 127 169 further to meet changing circumstances and needs. South 607 428 411 421 472 Therefore we are holding a Manufacturing Summit at East the Bristol and Bath Science Park in February to discuss South 344 207 212 209 244 and agree with industry what more should be done to West help us grow manufacturing in the UK. Wales 88 62 60 67 66 West 234 149 159 167 163 Midlands Patents Yorkshire 150 125 132 146 141 Postcode 45 30 28 33 38 not Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for given/ Business, Innovation and Skills how many patents were incomplete (a) applied for and (b) approved in each region in address each of the last five years for which figures are Total 2,978 2,058 2,070 2,118 2,323 available. [91556] Postal Services Mr Davey: The following two tables give the number of patents (a) applied for and (b) granted in each UK Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for region for the calendar years 2006-10. The data are Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been available in separate publications from: made on making Government services available at post http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ourpublications-review.htm offices. [90903] (a) Number of UK national patent applications filed by region 2006 Mr Davey: I refer the hon. Member to the written to 2010 ministerial statement entitled “Post Office Network”, Region 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 published on 24 January 2012, Official Report, column East 768 778 747 738 712 8WS. Midlands East of 2,082 2,063 1,992 1,844 1,984 Unfair Dismissal: Compensation England London 3,075 3,103 2,883 2,752 2,584 David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for North 1,537 1,425 1,447 1,369 1,246 Business, Innovation and Skills what the timetable is for West his Department’s consultation on compensated no-fault Northern 238 215 253 213 240 dismissals for small businesses. [90980] Ireland North 357 355 356 382 331 Mr Davey: The Secretary of State for Business, East Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member Scotland 1,131 1,145 1,100 1,074 1,001 for Twickenham (Vince Cable), announced in November South 3,106 2,962 2,892 2,777 2,810 that Government would seek evidence on the idea of East introducing compensated no-fault dismissal for micro South 1,764 1,719 1,582 1,644 1,639 firms (i.e. firms which employ fewer than 10 staff). My West officials are currently seeking views on progressing this Wales 652 765 705 682 550 and we will publish a formal call for evidence in due West 1,219 1,188 1,041 1,049 1,057 Midlands course. Decisions on whether to consult further will not Yorkshire 1,301 1,232 1,280 1,246 1,144 be taken until the ensuing evidence has been fully assessed. 369W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 370W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Lincolnshire (new AONB) Lincolnshire Wolds AONB (extension) Animal Health and Welfare Board for England Malvern Hills AONB (extension) Mendip Hills AONB (extension) Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, New Devon AONB (extension) Food and Rural Affairs with reference to the meeting note of 8 November 2011, for the Animal Health and Norfolk Coast AONB (extension) Welfare Board (AWHB), whether the AWHB’s plans to Norfolk Coast AONB 2 (extension) co-opt additional members are standard practice for North Devon AONB (extension) recruitment procedure; and if she will assess the North Kent Downs AONB (extension) transparency and fairness of this method of recruitment North Kent Downs AONB 2 (extension) for public bodies. [90579] North Kent Downs AONB 3 (extension) North Wessex Downs AONB (extension) Mr Paice: The board’s terms of reference set out that the appointment of the Chair and other non-executive Northumberland Coast AONB (extension) members will be conducted in an open and transparent Otmoor (new AONB) manner. Rutland (new AONB) The board is applying a similar process for appointing Solway Coast AONB (extension) co-opted non-executive members to that for appointing Suffolk Coast and Heaths AONB (extension) the original non-executive members. The process is Surrey Hills AONB (extension) rigorous and follows the key principles set out in the Kent Greensands (new AONB) Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ Yorkshire Wolds (new AONB). (OCPA) Code of Practice for Ministerial Appointments to Public Bodies. Christmas

Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Department spent on (a) Christmas trees and (b) other Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Christmas decorations in 2011; and if she will make a applications Natural England is considering for the statement. [91104] designation of an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty; and for which areas such applications have been made. Richard Benyon: In 2011, £2,011 was spent on Christmas [91383] trees (including decorations) for buildings occupied by core-DEFRA. Richard Benyon: It is ordinarily for Natural England (NE) to make an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty Common Land designation which, in the light of public consultation and, where appropriate, following a public inquiry, must Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for be confirmed by the Secretary of State before they come Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate into operation. she has made of the total amount of common land in I understand that a number of suggestions (there is England (a) in hectares and (b) as a proportion of the no mechanism for “applications” as such) have been total land mass; and if she will make a statement. made to NE for new AONBs, or extensions of existing [91355] ones. The following table lists the suggestions NE has received. Richard Benyon: There are 399,040 hectares of common land in England, which equates to approximately three Case name percent of the total land area. This figure includes the Blackdown Hills AONB (extension) New Forest, Epping Forest and certain other commons Breckland (new AONB) exempted from registration under the Commons Cannock Chase AONB (extension) Registration Act 1965. These exempted areas account Charnwood (new AONB) for 25,470 hectares of common land. Chilterns AONB 1 (retraction) Departmental Drinks Chilterns AONB 2 (extension) Chilterns AONB 3 (extension) Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Churnet Valley (new AONB) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her Cornwall AONB (extension) Department has spent on (a) wine, (b) other alcoholic Cotswolds AONB (extension) refreshments and (c) bottled water since May 2010. Cotswolds AONB 2 (extension) [91635] Cranborne Chase and West Wiltshire Downs AONB (extension) Richard Benyon: The Department does not keep a Dedham Vale AONB (extension) central record which will identify this information and Dorset AONB (extension) cannot therefore provide an accurate figure without Dorset AONB 2 (extension) incurring disproportionate costs. East Devon AONB (extension) All expenditure is incurred in accordance with the Forest of Dean (new AONB) principles of Managing Public Money and the Treasury Herefordshire Black Mountains (new AONB) handbook on Regularity and Propriety. 371W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 372W

Departmental Manpower decision on the policy option is made, final impact assessments detailing both costs and benefits will be Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for made public and placed in the Government’s online Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate impact assessment library: she has made of the number and proportion of full-time http://www.ialibrary.bis.gov.uk/ equivalent staff in her Department engaged in delivering EU regulations are legally binding and directly applicable (a) front line and (b) corporate or back office services; in all member states and therefore do not require and if she will make a statement. [91103] transposition into domestic law. Richard Benyon: Core-DEFRA employs a variety of DEFRA recently conducted a review of all of its staff working in a wide range of areas, including policy existing legislation, including that which is derived from development, analysis, research and support functions. the EU, and has published an initial report on the costs We have not carried out a detailed analysis according to and benefits of its regulatory stock: the categories in the question. http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/2011/08/16/pb13623- defra-regulatory-stock EU Law We will be doing further work to refine and update the document. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for regulations her Department brought into force through Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether her (a) primary legislation, (b) secondary legislation and Department holds information on the EU regulations (c) other means originated from proposals by the in its policy areas of responsibility which have not been European Commission in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [88969] implemented in (a) France and (b) Germany; on which dates those regulations became EU law; and if Richard Benyon: The number of regulations brought she will make a statement; [90695] into force by the DEFRA through (a) primary legislation, (2) which EU regulations her Department has not (b) secondary legislation and (c) other means which implemented; on what date the regulations became EU either fully or in part originated from proposals by the law; and if she will make a statement. [90710] European Commission in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011 is shown in the following table. Richard Benyon: Information on the implementation 2010 2011 of EU legislation by all EU member states is compiled by the European Commission, as part of its role as (a) Primary 00guardian of the EU Treaties. The Commission’s most legislation recent annual report on national implementation of EU (b) Secondary 45 38 law is publicly available at: legislation http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/infringements/ (c) Other means 0 0 infringements_annual_report_28_en.htm

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which EU (a) directives, (b) Fisheries: ICT regulations and (c) other legislation affecting her Department require transposition into UK law; and what estimate she has made of the cost to (i) the public Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for purse and (ii) the private sector of such measures. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy [89691] is on whether there should be a global requirement for vessel monitoring system satellite tracking devices to be Richard Benyon: EU directives affecting DEFRA and fitted to all fishing vessels. [91668] requiring transposition into UK law are as follows: 2009/128/EC: Establishing a framework for Community action Richard Benyon: Vessel monitoring systems provide a to achieve the sustainable use of pesticides reliable means of verifying the accuracy of reports 2010/60/EU: Providing for certain derogations for marketing submitted by fishermen of their fishing operations and of fodder plant seed mixtures intended for use in the preservation make a significant contribution towards the prevention of the natural environment of illegal fishing activity. I have supported EU control 2009/126/EC: On Stage II petrol vapour recovery during refuelling measures that have extended the requirement for all EU of motor vehicles at service stations fishing vessels over 12 metres to have working satellite 2010/79/EC: On the adaptation to technical progress of Annex tracking devices on board wherever in the world they III to Directive 22004/42/EC on the limitation of emissions of operate. The United Kingdom has also supported the volatile organic compounds adoption and operation of such measures by regional 2010/75/EC: On industrial emission (integrated pollution prevention fisheries management organisations and third countries and control) as a valuable means of monitoring fishing activity. 2011/97/EC: As regards specific waste criteria for the storage The value of using satellite based technology on of metallic mercury considered as waste. smaller, inshore vessels is less clear and presents different For these directives, DEFRA will need to develop technical challenges. The Marine Management Organisation policy options for implementation and then consult on has therefore been engaged in trials of alternative, non- them before costs can be fully determined. Once a satellite based technology for such vessels. 373W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 374W

Furs: Origin Labelling Reed Beds

Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many discussions she has had with her EU counterparts on hectares of reedbed in National Nature Reserves are the introduction of country of origin labelling so that managed on a sustainable basis to produce reed for consumers can make fully-informed choices on the thatching and panel fencing; [91274] purchase of products made from fur. [90590] (2) how many hectares of reedbed in National Nature Reserves are managed by long-term rotational Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the cutting and burning. [91276] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Richard Benyon: DEFRA and its agencies do not (BIS) Ministers have had no discussions with EU hold information centrally for all National Nature Reserves counterparts on the introduction of country of origin (NNRs). For those NNRs in Cambridgeshire, Norfolk labelling on products made from fur. and Suffolk, reserve managers have estimated that approximately 78 hectares of reed bed are cut commercially Health with the reeds used for thatching, reed screens and specialist paper making. They also estimate approximately Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for 115 hectares of these NNRs are managed by long term Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what definition rotational cutting. her Department uses of well-being in society. [90807] Soil: Conservation Richard Benyon: Well-being is central to the Government’s vision for mainstreaming Sustainable Development in Government that was published in Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of February 2011. State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what The Office for National Statistics programme on representations she has received from the farming measuring national well-being recently initiated a debate industry on soil protection regulations; and if she will on national well-being and how it should be measured. make a statement. [91529] The findings from the debate, which are now being used to consult on proposed domains and headline indicators Richard Benyon: In June 2010, the Government of national well-being, are available on the ONS website. commissioned Richard Macdonald to conduct a review of farming regulation, partly in response to representation Hunting: Sports from the industry on this issue. The review, published in May 2011, was undertaken with extensive consultation with industry and other interested parties and included Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, a number of recommendations relating to the Soil Food and Rural Affairs whether the Government classifies Protection Review 2010. In its interim response, published hunting with hounds as a field sport. [91661] in November 2011, the Government set out their intentions to work with industry to review the Soil Protection Review Mr Paice: The Government have no responsibility for with the aim of putting in place revised arrangements deciding whether or not particular activities are classified when the current arrangements end in 2013. A full as field sports. response to the taskforce recommendations will be published shortly. Otters Third Sector Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate her Department has made of the (a) size and (b) Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for location of the wild otter population in England in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much funding last 20 years; and if she will make a statement. [91167] her Department provided to (a) The Art Room, (b) the National Portrait Gallery, (c) Mountain Rescue Richard Benyon: It is currently not possible to estimate England, (d) the English Schools Swimming Association, otter abundance from the quantity and distribution of (e) the Scout Association and (f) Missing Links UK in otter signs and sightings. Research investigating the (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if she will make a possibility of assessing numbers of otters from DNA or statement. [90749] chemical analysis of spraint (otter faeces) is ongoing. Three national otter surveys have been carried out in Richard Benyon: In the financial years 2010-11 and England in the last 20 years—in 1991-94, 2000-02 and 2011-12 to date, core-DEFRA has not funded any of 2009-10. Direct comparison of the 2,940 sites used in all the organisations listed. three of these surveys reveals that the number of sites showing signs of otters has increased from 23.4% in Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for 1991-94, to 36.3% in 2000-02, and again to 58.8% in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her 2009-10. Since the publication of the last report otter Department is taking to measure progress on the signs in Kent have confirmed that the species is now implementation of policies supporting the Big Society present throughout England. initiative; and if she will make a statement. [91394] 375W Written Answers26 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 376W

Richard Benyon: DEFRA’s business plan sets out and Local Government on his Department’s fund for clear priorities for the Department including what we supporting weekly waste collection. [91562] are putting in place to support the growth of Big Society. We continue to report publicly on progress Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, against these priorities at: Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the http://transparency.number10.gov.uk/transparency/srp/ Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), meets regularly Within DEFRA this includes reporting progress on to discuss matters of Government policy with the Secretary initiatives such as the Big Tree Plant and the new of State for Communities and Local Government, my Waterways Charity Project. right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), including matters on waste policy including Trees: Planning Permission weekly waste collection.

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Waste Disposal: Food Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what plans she has to use the revised National Planning Policy Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Framework to promote tree planting; [91666] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what advice her (2) whether it is her policy to seek increased protection Department gives local authorities on the treatment for ancient woods and trees in the final version of the and disposal of food waste. [91563] National Planning Policy Framework. [91667] Richard Benyon: The Government encourage local Mr Paice: The Department for Communities and authorities to manage their food waste sustainably and, Local Government (DCLG) is still considering consultation through the waste and resources action programme, responses and these, and other issues, will be taken into provides technical support on treatment options. However, account as the National Planning Policy Framework is decisions on the treatment and disposal of food waste finalised. I understand that DCLG will publish the final are for local authorities to make, taking into account version of the National Planning Policy Framework by local circumstances including local logistics, the the end of March this year. characteristics of the area, and the service that residents want. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Written Questions Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has asked the Independent Panel on Forestry for advice on ancient woodlands and on an appropriate level of woodland cover in England. Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government look forward to the submission of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many panel’s final report this spring. ordinary written questions tabled to her Department by hon. Members since May 2010 have not received a Waste Disposal reply within (a) one and (b) two months; and what the subject matter was of each such question. [91016] Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what assessment Richard Benyon: Between May 2010 and 20 December she has made of the Office of Fair Trading’s market 2011 core-DEFRA received 3,342 parliamentary questions study on organic waste; [91515] for ordinary written answer, of which (a) 161 had not (2) whether her Department plans to respond to the received a reply with one month and (b) a further 30 Office of Fair Trading’s market study on market waste. had not received a reply within two months. [91516] A breakdown by subject is shown in the following table: Richard Benyon: DEFRA is carefully considering the Office of Fair Trading’s market study on organic waste (a) Reply received (b) Reply received and is currently discussing its recommendations with Subject after one month after two months OFWAT. We will take into account the report’s findings Finance and 53 10 as part of ongoing work to clarify the relevant Procurement environmental and economic regulatory frameworks HR and Staff issues 22 8 that apply to the organic waste sector, and in developing Animal Health and 21 2 robust quality standards for the end use of organic Welfare wastes. Rural, Farming and 30 6 Wildlife Issues Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Other 35 4 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions Total 161 30 she has had with the Secretary of State for Communities ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 26 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 391 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued British Antarctic Survey...... 402 Photovoltaics ...... 391 Competition...... 403 Prepayment Meters ...... 401 Emissions...... 404 Renewable Energy...... 403 Energy Bills...... 394 Smart Meters ...... 398 Energy Efficiency ...... 399 Strait of Hormuz ...... 396 Energy Efficiency ...... 401 Topical Questions ...... 406 Kyoto Protocol...... 396 Wind Farms ...... 405 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 26 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 23WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 25WS Pre-packaged Sales in Insolvency...... 23WS Scrap Metal Dealers...... 25WS TRANSPORT ...... 26WS City of Liverpool Cruise Terminal...... 26WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 24WS National Policy Statement for Ports ...... 26WS Feed-in Tariffs...... 24WS Street Works (Lane Rental)...... 27WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 27WS HEALTH...... 24WS EU-Switzerland Agreement Opt-in Decision ...... 27WS Nursing and Midwifery Council ...... 24WS Industrial Injuries Advisory Council...... 28WS PETITION

Thursday 26 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1P BAE Systems Jobs in the Humber region...... 1P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 26 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 327W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Fraud ...... 327W continued Crisis at Christmas...... 322W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 363W Departmental Manpower...... 322W Apprentices: Agriculture...... 363W Domestic Waste ...... 323W Company Accounts...... 363W Homelessness...... 323W Copyright: Internet ...... 364W Housing Benefit ...... 323W Departmental Apprentices ...... 364W Non-domestic Rates: Empty Property...... 324W Employment: Arbitration...... 364W Social Rented Housing...... 324W Green Investment Bank ...... 365W Third Sector...... 324W Higher Education...... 366W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 366W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 317W Manufacturing Industries ...... 366W Arts...... 317W Patents ...... 367W Broadband ...... 317W Postal Services...... 368W Copyright: Internet ...... 317W Unfair Dismissal: Compensation ...... 368W Departmental Manpower...... 318W Football ...... 318W CABINET OFFICE...... 325W Libraries ...... 318W Challenge Network ...... 325W Radio: Wales...... 319W International Law: Cybercrime ...... 325W Wedgwood Museum ...... 319W New Businesses: Worcestershire ...... 326W DEFENCE...... 313W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 322W Argentina: Military Alliances ...... 313W Charities: Finance...... 322W Armed Forces: Manpower ...... 313W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 349W Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator ...... 313W Burkina Faso: Poverty...... 349W Departmental Manpower...... 314W Democratic Republic of Congo: Elections ...... 349W Ex-servicemen: Education...... 314W Developing Countries: Diseases ...... 350W Public Sector: Pay ...... 314W Developing Countries: Multinational Companies.. 350W Diseases ...... 350W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 326W Members: Correspondence ...... 351W EU Action ...... 326W Somalia: International Co-operation ...... 351W Yemen: Overseas Aid ...... 351W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 315W Electricity Generation...... 315W JUSTICE...... 352W Energy: Meters...... 315W Appeals: Hull...... 352W Nuclear Power Stations...... 316W Criminal Injuries Compensation ...... 357W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 316W Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority...... 360W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 316W Criminal Proceedings ...... 361W Wind Power ...... 317W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 361W Manoucehr Bahmanzadeh ...... 361W Proceeds of Crime Act 2002...... 362W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Solicitors: Harrow...... 362W AFFAIRS...... 369W Work Capability Assessment...... 362W Animal Health and Welfare Board for England ..... 369W Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty ...... 369W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 327W Christmas...... 370W Bill of Rights ...... 327W Common Land...... 370W Departmental Manpower...... 328W Departmental Drinks...... 370W Departmental Manpower...... 371W TRANSPORT ...... 319W EU Law...... 371W Buses: Testing ...... 319W Fisheries: ICT ...... 372W Driving: Licensing...... 320W Furs: Origin Labelling...... 373W Ports ...... 321W Health...... 373W Railways: Cotswold Hills...... 321W Hunting: Sports ...... 373W Travel: Trains ...... 322W Otters...... 373W Reed Beds ...... 374W TREASURY ...... 328W Soil: Conservation...... 374W Assets: Egypt ...... 328W Third Sector...... 374W Banking ...... 328W Trees: Planning Permission ...... 375W Bankruptcy ...... 329W Waste Disposal ...... 375W Copyright: Internet ...... 330W Waste Disposal: Food ...... 376W EU Law...... 330W Written Questions ...... 376W Executives: Pay ...... 330W Internet: Sales ...... 331W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 337W National Insurance Contributions: New Departmental Drinks...... 337W Businesses ...... 331W Economic and Monetary Union ...... 337W PAYE: Pensions ...... 331W Economic and Monetary Union: Civil Service...... 337W Revenue and Customs: Standards ...... 332W EU Countries: Visits Abroad ...... 338W Taxation: International Cooperation ...... 332W Pakistan: Politics and Government ...... 338W Working Tax Credit ...... 333W Proceeds of Crime Act 2002...... 338W Third Sector...... 338W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 349W Civil Partnerships: Ceremonies ...... 349W HEALTH...... 333W Autism: Health Services ...... 333W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 339W General Practitioners ...... 334W Disability Living Allowance: British Nationality.... 339W General Practitioners: Pharmacy ...... 335W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 339W Hospitals...... 335W Employment and Support Allowance: Appeals...... 340W Hospitals: Electricity...... 335W Employment Tribunals Service: Unfair Dismissal .. 341W National Institute of Health and Clinical Housing Benefit ...... 342W Excellence ...... 336W Housing Benefit: Autism...... 343W NHS: Reorganisation...... 336W Identity Assurance ...... 343W Organs: Donors ...... 336W Pensions...... 343W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 344W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 348W Universal Credit...... 345W Asylum: Egypt ...... 348W Welfare Reform Bill ...... 348W Travel Requirements...... 348W Work Experience...... 348W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 26 January 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 391] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

Business of the House [Col. 413] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Financial Services [Col. 429] Bill presented, and read the First time

Backbench Business [Un-allotted day] European Council [Col. 430] Topical debate Strategic Defence and Security Review [Col. 457] General debate

AFC Wimbledon [Col. 523] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall International Development (India) [Col. 143WH] Human Rights [Col. 167WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 23WS]

Petition [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 313W] [see index inside back page]