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A Conversation on Haredi Life, Israel February_shma.qxd:Layout 1 1/22/07 12:48 PM Page 4 A Conversation on Haredi Life, Israel, Shmuel Goldin: I just returned from a events, just as we must know the history of the year’s sabbatical in Israel where I had the op - Civil War and Reconstruction to understand portunity to spend time with my sister who race relations in America. lives in Har Nof, a Haredi community. Are the Goldin: In my Modern Orthodox com - two Haredi communities — in the U. S. and munity, Zionism is a major part of our gestalt. in Israel — different? How do you feel about the existence of the Nosson Scherman: While I can’t really State of Israel? speak authoritatively, the Haredi community Scherman: The Haredi community, in Israel seems more self-contained — they whether in the U. S. or in Israel, is opposed to don’t mix much with the rest of the popula - the political leadership of the country. The tion, which is a shame. Haredim here in the Knesset, the government, and the Supreme U. S. interact more — there are more people Court under Aharon Barak, are engaged in a in a profession or in business. Even those in stealth war against traditional Judaism. Both hinuch , education, do outreach and are there - the Haredim and the secularists are demo - fore less insular. It’s changing, but by and nized by one another. large the traditionalists anywhere tend to be Goldin: Are you opposed to the policies insular. By the way, insularity cuts more than of a particular government, or are you op - one way; non-religious Jews are often quite posed to the institution of the state? ambivalent about getting to know us. Scherman: I’m not opposed to the insti - Goldin: How do you feel about the title tution of the state. Haredi? Goldin: Is the Haredi community sup - Scherman: Although I don’t like labels, portive of the existence of the state of Israel? rightwing or fundamentalist, the title Haredi Scherman: Yes, the vast majority are. In was adopted by the fervently Orthodox people the last two U.S. elections, the general Jewish 100 years ago. It comes from the last chapter community was over 80 percent Democratic, in Isaiah, where God describes people who but Haredi Jews voted over 80 percent for serve Him zealously. Bush in 2004 and for Republicans in 2006, pri - Goldin: Why are the Haredim insular? marily because of Bush’s support of Israel. It’s Scherman: Primarily because Haredi Jews true that in the pre-state years, Haredim were must preserve their values and religious way of afraid that the secularists would mount an all- life. I think we both agree that what passes for out war against traditional Orthodoxy. And modern culture — the worship of money, loose many of them wanted to do exactly that. It sex, general crassness, and vulgarity — is not took Ben Gurion — as non-Haredi as they what we want for our children. All Haredim come — to convince his colleagues that unity agree about that. But there are subtle differ - was more important than ideological victory. ences between the so-called Lithuanian yeshiva While many Haredim opposed statehood on world, which is more study-oriented and more theological grounds, history shows that the rigid in matters of principle, and the Hasidic vast majority went along, voted, and were rep - world. Hasidim are more likely to be in the busi - resented in the Knesset from the start. A few ness or workforce and often more ready to ne - years ago, there was a mass rally in Washington gotiate. But these are generalities, not hard and in support of Israel. There were mostly Mod - fast rules. Much of the insularity in Israel, get - ern Orthodox Jews but there was a large rep - ting back to your question, dates back to the resentation of Haredim as well. But in the early waves of aliyah . Most of the immigrants papers and on the television, the stars of the who came to Palestine were rebelling against show were a dozen or so Neturei Karta people the Orthodoxy of their parents and grandpar - demonstrating against Israel. And in Israel, in ents. They arrived and saw the traditional the Knesset there are Haredi political parties Haredi community that was already living in — Agudath Israel, Degal HaTorah, and Shas. Yerushalayim. The newcomers derided it as a The political system in Israel is sick — but not black, medieval community that refused to because of the conflict between Haredim and February 2007 Adar 5767 come into the 20th century, and this created a seculars; it’s just a sick system. To subscribe: 877-568-SHMA great deal of hostility. The ill will remains. One Goldin: One difficult issue is that most www.shma.com must know history to understand current Haredi children do not go to the army. I hear 4 February_shma.qxd:Layout 1 1/22/07 12:48 PM Page 5 Learning, and Divine Providence many Israelis say, “My children go to the army. Scherman: It happens. It’s wholesome to My children defend the country. And I find it be insular but not extremely so. And most problematic that there is an entire population people I think are really not extremely so. It’s within Israel that isn’t doing that.” There’s a impossible to draw hard and fast lines because perception that the Haredi community is ben - human beings can’t be pigeonholed. efiting from the sacrifice of others. Goldin: The kolel (adult male yeshiva) has Scherman: It’s hard to respond to that be - always had a major place within the Jewish cause the response is something that most peo - world. But it has always been a place for the ple today cannot accept. A young Hasidic man best and the brightest who would then some - tells this story: “How does Israel come through how give back to the Jewish world in kind, all of these crises? Well, there’s a miraculous way, whether it was as a dayan or rabbi. But today it and there’s a normal way. The miraculous way is appears to have become a goal within the if the Jewish people can settle their differences Haredi community that everyone should sit and become unified and work together, and the and learn all day. Is such a situation sustain - Arab people are ready to make peace. The nor - able financially, or humanly? mal way is for God to intervene.” Theologically, Scherman: Young men do not become the Haredim are learning and praying and really serious about learning until they’re 16, doing breathtaking amounts of chesed in Israel. 17, 18 years old. So several years in the kolel is Rabbi Shmuel Goldin The mayor of Yerushalayim created an organi - part of the educational experience. When has served as spiritual zation, Yad Sarah, where tens of thousands of you’re just a young man getting married, you leader of the Orthodox volunteers help the sick and needy. Of course still need more learning; even a year or two in congregation, Ahavath there are other people who smoke cigarettes on a rarified Torah atmosphere sets the tone for Torah in Englewood, New Jersey, since 1984. street corners and say that they’re Haredim so future family life. He is an instructor of they don’t have to go to the army. I hold them in Goldin: Many of our children go for a year Bible and Philosophy at contempt. But as for the people who are really of study in Israel immediately following high the Isaac Breuer College learning Torah, we believe they are our protec - school, which is definitely beneficial. But more and the James Striar tion; the survival of Israel depends on God’s and more young people within the Haredi School of Yeshiva Univer - mercy and protection. The Talmud, based on a community, and some within Modern Ortho - sity and serves on the Ex - verse in Jeremiah, teaches that if there was ever doxy, are choosing to sit and learn as a life goal. ecutive Committee of the a moment when there was no Torah study hap - Scherman: For many people it’s an excel - Rabbinical Council of pening, anywhere on earth, Creation would lent idea. For others, it’s horrible. In my obser - America. cease to exist. And it is the people who serve vation, when the men reach a point where they God sincerely and often at personal sacrifice can’t manage anymore or are not growing any - Rabbi Nosson Scherman who earn that protection for the entire country. more, they leave the kolel . Either they go into studied at Torah Vo - daath and its post-grad - Goldin: How do you feel about secular teaching or business or a profession. uate division, Beth knowledge, culture, pursuing a career? Do the Goldin: There are lots of families, though, Medrosh Elyon. After benefits of secular knowledge and secular cul - who are living in poverty, who are not manag - fourteen years as a ture go beyond just making a living? ing in Israel or the U. S. teacher and principal, he Scherman: I’m certainly not opposed to Scherman: Let’s be practical. When it became general editor of having a profession to make a living. Secular can’t be sustained anymore, people will go to ArtScroll/Mesorah Publi - culture for the sake of secular culture is not a work. There is a tension between two impor - cations. He is the author traditional Jewish value. That’s a difference tant values. On the one hand is the impor - of the Stone Edition of between the Haredim and the Modern Ortho - tance of Torah study as a benefit to the family the Chumash, the dox.
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