21 Oral Answers [ 15th DEC. 1994] to Questions 22 don'i have the money and, there, fore, we iSlONS . (SMi MARGARET ALVA): cannot continue the; order," But, this is a ta) and (b) Government's stand has already passing phase. 1 have been trying to tell the been indicated in Kajya Sabha during Short Railways, which they have accepted that; they Duration Discussion op 2nd August, 1994 to cannot shut down these things. There has to the effect thai after a nationaj debate, if all be some compromise between the two, both the political parties and leaders are pi spared programme be. lag equally important. So, in to sit at the table together end cum-: to a that compromise we will have to see how cdnsensus, the Go-Yi-ioiufini is willing to much has to lie borne by the Railways, as eorne forward .,■■■„ a comprehensive • Bill. extra and how much has to be borne by this. rb«

MR. CHAIRMAN: Question No. 122.

• Lok Pal Bill •

♦122. SHRI G. G. SWELL: PROF. VIJAY KUMAR MALHOTRA: Will the PRIME MINISTER be pleased to state: (a) whether Government have taken steps to bring about a consensus on the Lok Pal Bill; and (b) if not, the reasons therefor?. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PERSONNEL, PUBLIC GRIEVANCES AND

23 He. Suspension tRAJYA SABHA] of Question Hour 24 tnose aays and none oi' the Memoers 04 have been received by us. No follow up me Opposition parties, wno had. Dees on this otter has come itrom any-wuere. demanding a discussion, was present m Today the Members come back and say me House. Those who were pr&^nt that the Govtrnment has failed to take an participated in it. And in. the course oi initiative. the discussion, i pointea out, as the hon. Mtember has also mentioned, that nve attempts had been made in the past, SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA; This both by the Cong. ress Government and is not correct. the non-Congress Government at the Centre, to bring in a comprehensive Bill. MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, the second Two otr tnem brought in the office of supplementary... (Interruptions) the Prime Minister; the rest had various other provisions in keeping with the recommendations of the Administrative SHRI S. ; Did Reform Commission of 1966. Sir, even the you take the initiative? (interrup Joint Select Committee had studied those tions J. Bills—two of them went to the Joint Select Committees. Others were discussed < and one was passed in part by the Lok Sabha, and was not brought to the . Various steps were taken, but MR. CHAIRMAN; Mr. Mehta, your because of lack of a consensus on the turn has not come. It may or may not contents of those Bills, the Bills did not come. go through. In the course of the reply to the debate, I made an offer. I , said, "We SHRI G. G. SWELL: Sir, she has only have an open mind. The Prime Minister vaguely spoken about the national has assured as in the House that if there debate. Somebody has to take the is a consensus on the basic question of initiaive and that initiative, under the who should be covered, what should be the circumstance must come from the provisions and what should be the para- Government, especially because she had meters"—as the Member said—"of the ' very clearly said in her reply to the Bill brought before the House, a final debate that this was what was wanted. view can be taken." I asked for a national But no action has been taken. Whom do debate at that time. Unfortunately, today, you expect? Who is going to open the the Member says that a national debate national debate? Somebody has to do must also be the responsibility of the that. Some Committee has to do that. Government. When we spoke of the Other wise... (Interruptions).,. national debate, we said, "Let there foe views from Bar Associations, >from the SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: Opposition parties, from all others who are You do it... (Interruptions)... interested in ,this, and based On "this national debate, let us come out with a consensus which is accepted SHRI G. G. SWELL: Yes, I can do to all the political parties. Let ' us sit that. Give me the authority, I am going together." But no suggestions to do that. have come to me. I do not want to quote SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: We my own offer made that day. I said, have given the authority to start a "Come with comprehensive suggestions. national debate ... (Interruprions)... Let us sit after that and discuss tyem." But no suggestions SHRI G. G. SWELL: I am going to initiate a national debate. All right. Let there be a resolution giving me the authority. I will initiate a national debate. Give me the authority and I will initiate the debate. 25 Oral Answers [15th DEC. 1994] to Questions 26

Sir, I think this question of Lok pal has MR. CHAIRMAN: No, cannot allow to be considered in -the context of what is you to make a speech... (Znterrup- happening in the world. The Minister tions)... should know—if she does not, I will tell her—that Jus* two days ago, the Italian SHRI G. G. SWELL: Now, Sir, the Prime Minister, Berlusconi, was grilled only Minister... (Interruptions) .... Let me and punished by the magistrate outside finish my sentence...(Interruptions) ... the court in Milan for attestations of Let me finish the sentence offers of bribes to the tax inspectors in (Interruptions)... Now the one and the connection with his telecommunication only honest man in the Cabinet has come and power. She it also aware that a out of it... (Interruptions) former President of Brazil, Collor de' Mellor had bees put on trial and he THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE escaped from going to jail now only by MINISTRY OF CHEMICALS AND the skin of his teeth... (Interruptions)... FERTILIZERS (SHRI EDU-ARDO FALEIRO): Mr. Chairman, this is very MR. CHAIRMAN: Please put your irresponsible. This must be expunked .. • question. '■ *[, (Interrup. tions). MR. CHAIRMAN; No, I cannot allow ... SOME HON. MEMBER: He is spea- king very pood English. (Interruptions)... Will you ask your question? I don't allow ... SHRI G. G. SWELL: I am coming, Sir. (Interruption ... Will Nearer home, a former President of Ban- (Interruptions) gladesh is now fairly and squarely in jail. Now, in the midst of all these things, SHRI G. G. SWELL: In the midst of they cannot bear hearing good English. all this ... (Interruptions). That is all. SHRI S. K. T. RAMACHANDRAN; MR. CHAIRMAN: Please ask a ques- Sir, he is giving us a sermoon here... tion. (Interruptions) ... SHRI G. G. SWELL: * SHRI G. G. SWELL: A midst all these things, I would like to know when they MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, this is not are going to bring forward this Bill and permissible. I cannot allow. This is not whether the Office of the Prime Minister going on record. This is no* going on will come under the purview of the Lok record... (Interruptions) ... Please ask a Pal Bill. question... (Interruptions) ... SYED SIBTEY RAZI: Sir, during a THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE supplementary ... (Interruptions) .. MINISTRY OF LAW, JUSTICE AND SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA; Sir, COMPANY AFFAIRS (SHRI H. R. I would certainly like... (Interruptions)... BHARDWAJ): Sir, it must ^ expunged... I am grateful to the hon. Member for the (interruptions) ... effort he has made at educating me about SHRI S.K.T. RAMACHANDRAN: what is happening the world over. I Sir, be cannot be allowed to say so... would like to tell him that I am also (Interruptions)... Sir, instead of aware of what is happening in various asking a question, he is... (Interrw-P- parts of the world and I do not need to be tioms)... educated here. But I do want to say one thing. The Prime Minister himself stood SHRI A JIT P. K. JOGI: Sir, lt is a up in this House and he is on record as totally irresponsible statement. Kindly having said that be had no objection to expunge it... (Interruptions) ... even the Office of the Prime * Not recorded. 27 Oral Answers [ RAJYA SABHA \ to Questions 28

Minister being brought under the purview of tha Lok Pal. Now.,. (Interruptions)

SHRI CHIMANBHAl, MEHTA: • - When is the Bill coming?

SHR1MATI MARGARET ALVA: Sir, let He would like to have consultations with the me say that this Bill covering the Prime party leaders on the subject of establishing an Minister was inti'o-V. P. Singh Govern- Ombudsman type of authority to enquire into ment. It came up in this House. "ere the charges of corruption. The Prime Minister said that he would h\ e to there for 11 months but, never move! the Bill. It just introduced in the House consultations. and er processed. You itcmg with them.' You could have given it priority. Mr. Chiman- bhai Mehhi '.vs.. a member of that Government but, he n-'-ver thought to have it passed; (Interruptions) SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Sir, she is referring to me. ... (In-rptioas)... You bring in the Bill. You have already U'ken three-and-a- half years. Why don't you bring in the Bill just There is a concensus on it. ... (In-. . . f Interruptions') ...

SHRI . Let us not talk about the V. P. Singh Government. Let us talk about her Gov-ernme'nl ( htterruptten)...

SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: , thej can talk about the Italian Parliament and the South American Parliament and I can't talk about the Indian Parliament '....{Interruptions). Sir, we have made a vocal offer. Sir, five attempts have been made in I' past and they hnve not gone through because there tad been no consensus and we have : t'id, "Let us agree on a consensus Hill and we win ,- ome out with the Bill. You come out with your suggestions from the old Bill and vtUat you want to pass. Let us pass it. We have - no ■ ction to it.>' (Interruptions).. Let u,j have a discussion on it ■ (Interruptions). .

29 Oral Answers [ 15th DEC. 1994] to Questions 30

SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA; We were here for a full discussion, but they did not participate. Sir, hot able to -give a date by which the Bill will come: The question is, if there is a consensus on the piovisions we are prepared to come out. SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA; Sir, as I said, we have also introduced a Bill in the past THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI P. V. but it did not go through due to lock of NARASIMHA RAO): Sir, I would like to consensus. ... (Interruptions) ... Let me clarify one thing. When the House will take finish. up the ill come out of it, i cannot say. But, I want to say one thing (hat what I said earlier, MR. CHAIRMAN: Let her finish, sed. I v-'i' BO1 resife from the position thai thi .. . (Interruptions) ... Prime Minister's Office ' ■. Borffi pt ' "i DR. BIPLAB DASGUPTA: What does it. (Interrup. she mean by consensus? ... (In, ieriuptions)... ME. CHAIRMAN; Shri Jaipal Reddv . .. DR. : Sir, there (Inaerruptions) ... is already a consensus in this House that there should be a Lok Pal Bill. Will the DR, MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI; .'iiii, ,- Minister now ensure that on the basis of this welcome the Prime Minister's statement that coh-Ug a Bill will be brought in'.' ... Prime Min.is-: Office wjU be covered by the (Interruptions)... There is no opposition to i ■ ailed Bill, we would also like to know - the Bill m the Congress, there- is no "hen this august Bill will- be cominj before opposition to the Bill in the Opposition. this august House. tions.) Then, where is the lack of consensus for this Bill? .. . (Interruptions)... MR. CHAIRMAN; Please. fln-. . (In upti I ■ . ME. CHAIRMAN: Le$ the Minis- .' ...... '.'i now. SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: The point raised wa3 about the States having passed the SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: Sir. I Bills. Sir; 13 States have passed the Lok agree that .. . (Interruptions) . . . Sir, what is Avukta Bills and not all the States... this? Will they allow me to answer or not? (Interruptions) and I want to say.. Sir, I am saying that, none of Us iu Ihi. (Interruptions)., The first Govern-meat to Rouse, aol even the Prime Minister, . opposed abolish th-s Lok Ayukta is Orissa, It is their 1 to the Lok Pal Bill being pas-sec . . .. Government which has abolished it .. [Interruptions). ., (Interrup. i . ..

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI; Will the SHRI SIKANDER BAKHT; Sir, before the Prime Minister give us an assurance about Question Hour is over, we want .. the date on which the Bill will be brought in (Interruptions). this House? MR. CHAIRMAN: I call -Mr. SHRI 'v.' A ' 11 MARGARET ALVA: As the first step, I am evolving some kind of an i Reddy ___ (Interruptions). opinion. You have permitted a discussion in this House. Though ■ ■ (Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: After she finishes, I will call ... (Interruptions Please . • (Interruptions) '.

31 Oral Answers [RAJYASABHA] to Questions 32

I MR. CHAIRMAN; Now, let us go on to Question No. 123. Mr. Sanjay Dalmia.

Permission to MNCs to manufacture reserved items

SHRI SIKANDER BAKHT; When is H23. SHRI SANJAY DALMIA: Will the Bill coming? That is "-11. the PRIME MINISTER be pleased to state: SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: Mr. Chairman, Sis, the Prime Minister has (a) whether Government have taken made an empty offer because he has not a decision to grant permission to set a date nor has he made a promise. He some multinational companies to make has merely said in principle that the agreements with Indian companies for Prime Minister's Office would be marketing the items reserved for brought within the purview of the Lok small scale secor; Pal which will never be instituted so long as the Congress is in power. Mr. Chair- man, Sir, ... (Interruptions)... I was a (b) if so, the names of these com- member of the Joint Select Committee in panies; and the late '80's. I may tell the House that the Joint Select Committee came to an (c) the fields in which permission has infructuous end because the Government been granted to them to sign agreements of the day the Congress took a formal ; with Indian companies? view that there was no need for any Lok Pal Bill. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF INDUSTRY (SHRI M. SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: ARUNACHALAM): (a) 836 items have No.. never. ba(en reserved for manufacture by the Small Scale Sector. Government has SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY; Can made no change in the list of these items the Minister ... (Interruptions)... It is on since 1991. However, marketing of these record. Mr. Chidambaram, who was also items has never been reserved for small a member of the Cabinet, was a member scale sector. No new decision has been Dn their behalf in the Joint Select taken since 1991 to permit multi-national Committee, and he made an official companies to take up the marketing of statement in the Joint Select Committee, such items. and yet the Congress Government did not feel institution of the Lok Pal to ba (b) and ,c) No Government permis necessary any more (Interruption).. sion is required by any Indian com pany, big or small, totake up the SOME MEMBERS; When is the Bill marketing of items reserved coming? (Interruptions).. for the small scale sector. How. ever, permission is required for making foreign MR. CHAIRMAN; The Mini-ter says investment in these marketing operations. she cannot give a date now. Please listen These per. missions have been granted to her.. .(Interruptions) freely in the past. During the period August, 1991 to October, 1994 permissions for making foreign investments in Indian SHRI G. G. SWELL: Is any date given marketing companies have been granted to or not? Let the Minister say & new ventures as per I enclosed (Interruptions) statement.