Transcript of Exclusive Interview with H.E. President Conducted by Mr. Charles A. Snetter, CEO of Radio /FM 92.1 at the President’s Fish Market Residence on Thursday, October 17, 2013

Mr. Snetter: Hello and welcome. Welcome to this special interview with Her Excellency Mrs. Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, President of the Republic of . My name is Charles Snetter. Madam President, we want to say thank you for having us talk with you today, and welcome to this interview.

President Johnson Sirleaf: Thank you, Mr. Snetter; it’s always a pleasure to talk to you.

Mr. Snetter: Madam President, since your return from your trip abroad, there’s been much talk about your health. How is your health?

President Sirleaf: My health is very good, I’m pleased to report. As many know, I had the occasion very recently to check all of my vitals and they are all well in place, functioning well. However, I have been having a problem with arthritis, something that happens to many people, particularly as you begin to age. And that means in my wrist there had been a wearing out for using this hand for so long over many years of work, and so the cartilage in the wrist was beginning to wear out, and the doctor said it was necessary to reconstitute it, and so I had to go through surgery to get that done. It has been done; the recovery is well under way. Yes, it will take me a few weeks for the build-up to be firmly in place, but I expect when that period is over, my right hand will be back to full function. Everything else is functioning well. So, generally, at my age, I can say my health is very good.

Mr. Snetter: I’m sure the doctors were not pleased for you to leave soon.

President Sirleaf: No, that was the issue. I took surgery on a Friday, slept overnight at the hospital. In fact, it was my first time having surgery, my first time taking anesthesia in my whole life. I came out of it so well that I slept one night and I felt I wanted to go home. Yes, there was some lingering pain and all of that, but the next day I left; my schedule called for me to leave the country on Tuesday, return home on Wednesday. The doctor wanted to keep me for at least a week or so, to make sure everything was in place, but I told him, look, I’m on schedule; I have to go home; everything’s well; the operation was successful; I will go home and I will recover there. He was reluctant, but he knew I was determined, and so he gave me some antibiotics and some pain killers and things to take and then told me, well, go home and make sure you follow doctor’s orders. And let me say thank you to Dr. [Robert] Kpoto here, because when I came – he’s also an orthopedic surgeon – I came and I talked to him, and he talked to my doctor, the doctor told him what had been done, and Dr. Kpoto has also been checking on me to make sure everything is going well. Finally, let’s thank God that, at my age, everything was successful.

Mr. Snetter: You returned with a rousing welcome. What do you think about that?

President Sirleaf: Obviously, I was extremely pleased, even though I said on that day that I am usually not accustomed to large gatherings when I return, I like to be quiet and just go back to work. But many of my friends and supporters felt this was an appropriate occasion for them to come together and let me know that they were pleased with the work that we were doing in the country, that I was welcomed back after what was a successful trip: my participation in the UN General Assembly; the award I got in Costa Rica – and I owe that to the young people of Liberia. I am going to get that group together pretty soon to be able to thank them, because it was their initiative, they worked for it, they mobilized the

1

resources for it. And so after all of that, the group here decided that it was time for us to turn this tide and for us to just say thank you to me. And I want to say thank you to them.

Mr. Snetter: Let’s continue with your trip out of here. You first went over to Canada. How was it there?

President Sirleaf: Yes, I forgot to mention that. This is a group that every year brings young people together and gives them the opportunity to interact with key eminent figures of the world. They’ve been after me for a couple of years to do this, and I did. It’s a short occasion, but there were thousands and thousands of young people from all over Canada. They gathered for this one day – it’s called “We Day,” and they bring in these figures and we just make a statement and then afterwards you go through some interviews with a few of them. I was able, on that occasion, to meet some very young people. I met a young lady – a young girl – who met with me and said, “I want to be the Prime Minister of Canada.” And so I told her, “That’s the spirit, so go to it!” For me it was a light occasion, but it was a wonderful occasion, and the crowds just totally overwhelmed me. I am glad it was something I was able to do for the young people.

Mr. Snetter: Your appearance at the United Nations on Day One. How do you feel about that?

President Sirleaf: I was very pleased that I was way up there on the list because as the numbers of persons begin to speak, the audience begins to decline as people move off to their own commitments. So I was glad I was properly placed. Again, I thank our Ambassador, Marjon Kamara, for being able to do the work that gave us that choice spot when the room was filled and we were able to convey our views. That I was very pleased with also.

Mr. Snetter: While you were in New York, another big occasion took place with the superstar Bono. How do you feel about that?

President Sirleaf: That was another fun occasion. Well, you know, Bono has been a supporter of Liberia. Way back there, when we were trying to get relief for our debt, and he pitched in there with the different countries – the large countries to whom we owed money – and he advocated for Liberia. And when that debt relief came, we thanked him, we extended an invitation to him. He has been here and he has seen the progress we have made.

On this occasion, he wanted just to bring his crowd together – the people who have supported him. It followed a meeting that we had with the Forbes Group; and if you look at the Forbes Magazine for October, you will see that yes, we are featured in that, and in this large meeting you will see me and others in which they brought these billionaires together who were trying to see what they can do to support social enterprises. Liberia is featured in that. And so Bono brought some of those. And that also followed the meeting here, when Bono came with Senators who met with us, and we exchanged with them views on the progress and the challenges of the country. The Senators – and there were those who have supported us, and one or two of them had never been here, did not know too much about Liberia. That provided an opportunity for us to expand our support base, which we have in both Houses of Congress. That whole trip, I think you might say, was just a wonderful one with lots of results for Liberia.

Mr. Snetter: We’ve already touched on your visit to Costa Rica, where your bust was unveiled there. How did you feel when you were just looking at yourself in that manner?

2

President Sirleaf: I just turned to the sculptor from Costa Rica and said, “My goodness, how could you replicate this so well?” I felt particularly honored being in the presence of such truly eminent historical icons, starting with Mahatma Gandhi, and all of those people. You just feel so appreciated. When I left home, with all of the clamor that was going on, and then to go and get this acclaim among top world historical leaders, and inspired by Liberian young people, to me that was more important than anything else. I think it was just something that made me feel that all the hard time I get here, this one here just covered it. It just turned it upside down!

Mr. Snetter: That’s good. You’re back home; I shouldn’t say convalescing, but just resting and making sure that your operation goes well. But all of a sudden, there is a big trip coming up for you this weekend, to Zwedru. What’s about to happen there?

President Sirleaf: We are trying to make sure that we continue the efforts that are promoting peace throughout the Mano River Union countries. This particular meeting is trying to bring back the good relationship, the exchanges, the working together of people across the Liberian and the Ivory Coast border. As you know, we’ve tried our best. President [Alassane] Ouattara on his side, I on my side, have been trying to promote peace, and it’s working. We’ve had some cross-border tensions, raids, attempts; all of those have been managed. We are holding large numbers of Ivorian refugees as a result of the problems in Côte d’Ivoire. Those numbers are now decreasing, people are returning home.

It’s a peace-promotion, confidence-building occasion. The elders, the chiefs, the local authorities on both sides started their meeting on Wednesday, getting together to go back to the old days when they lived together, worked together, traded without any confusion, without any violence, without any fuss. President Ouattara and I will just go to add a high political dimension to that, to say we are going to give them all the support that they need for them to continue to live as brothers and sisters, even though they have a border between them, where they can move, one side to the other, and do things together. We call on them all – all Liberians, all Ivoirians – to endorse this, to give it their fullest support, to promote it because it’s good for all of our countries.

Mr. Snetter: I wish you all the best on that trip, and I know that, at the end of the day, it will be very successful. Let’s talk a little about your family – the Johnson-Sirleaf family. We will talk more about the Johnson family from where you came. Could you tell us about your family? Were they well-to-do people? What did they do during the latter years? Your mother, your father, even your uncles, were they well-to-do people?

President Sirleaf: You know, Charles, I’m glad you asked that, because many of the young people of this country don’t really know my background or the background of my family, and if they understand it. Those who have the opportunity to read my book [This Child Will Be Great] will know better. I come from a family that represents both worlds. On the one hand, my mother and father – at least on my father’s side, fully indigenous, and on my mother’s side, half indigenous. My two grandmothers died illiterate, could not read and write. But both my mother and father took advantage of the Ward System in our country, in which they lived with families in Monrovia, had the opportunity to go to school, and so were able to move faster than their own parents, and so everything went well. In a way we became part of the, say, elitist group or part of the more well-off group, until my father got ill. My father was paralyzed, and remained paralyzed for over seven years before he died. And during that period we didn’t have any money. He was one of the first indigenous persons in the Legislature, but when he got sick, that was over; and so my mother had to do things like making bread, making other things to send us to school. But the one thing they valued was an education, and so they made sure, she did everything 3

she could. First of all, she taught us because she had a little school herself, and then she sent us to school and made sure.

The other thing: my father always made us remember was our roots; so that every vacation, when school ended, we went to the village and we lived there the entire time with my grandmother. So we learned to do things, like how to scratch rice, how to pull a canoe, how to chase birds. We learned all those things. So we knew both sides: whether you lived in Monrovia, and had all the fine clothes, and could go to all the nice parties; but you can also go home, and you know how to beat dumboy, you know how to beat rice in a mortar, and all. So you see, we didn’t grow up with money. After my father died, we lived just like the ordinary family in Monrovia. My mother was a Presbyterian preacher and she taught us those fundamentals that remain with us today. That’s when I listen to some of the things people say about me, I can’t cry, but I just feel sorry because we grew up in a different environment. We didn’t really have money; for me to go to school, I was able to get scholarship here, there and yonder – all of us. I got married very early, but one of the things I keep saying, and we emphasize, has to do with going to school, because we knew that was the passport to success. That is the passport to wealth. That is the passport to being able to get where you want in life, and we benefited from that. Besides, the position I am in today, I didn’t get it because somebody put me there, or I jumped, with some help. We were a working family.

I got married early, I had my children early. I went back to school after that. I’ve been working all my life. Next year, 2014, will be my 50th year of work, because I started working in this government in 1964 as head of a division in the then Treasury Department. But I paid attention to my job; I learned from people who mentored me; then I went back to school and came back. So when they talk about us having money… First of all, if you look at our lifestyle, we are not ostentatious people; I live very simply. Yes, we are well off. Because we’re educated, we’ve had good jobs.

What do I have personally? Let me tell you something: My mother inherited, from the people who reared her, a lot on Broad Street. That lot is still there today; that’s where you see the Unity Party Headquarters. We’re still looking for the means to try to develop it. My father and mother owned a lot on Benson Street; that’s where I was born, that’s where I lived. The building is broken down; it’s there, it’s not yet developed. In my ancestral village, my father got 250 acres there; we’re just trying to complete the deed, we’ve just put a little house there, and I’m trying to build things. On Bushrod Island, my mother has one house there, and it’s dilapidated. When my father was sick, that’s where he lived. My mother has some land in Caldwell, undeveloped. That’s all they had; when she died, they had no money.

I, myself, what do I have? I have three houses – all built during my years of struggle, going through many things. I live in one house right now; my son Jess lives in the other house; and the one house that is rented, behind the “Y”, where my children grew up. I have some land in Todee, but that’s all. But I’ve earned good money over the years, enough to be able to take care of myself comfortably. I’m not rich, I don’t want to be rich, I don’t care to be rich. My mother taught us humility, honesty, hard work, and that’s the code I live by.

Fortunately, I won the Peace Prize; that probably gave me the biggest lump sum of money that I’ve had. I’ve already built a school in my ancestral village; I put up money to build a girls’ dormitory in Todee. That building is nearing completion; that’s a commitment I made, and I’m meeting the commitment.

4

My sister doesn’t have much, nor my brother, Carney. They’ve all been working; they all have a house; they are all trying to get farms; they all have had good jobs, so they can live comfortably. But to say rich, in the sense of the word, no we are not. Ask anybody to go and do any kind of check that they want to check, any intelligence work they want to do. It’s not there! My sons? Again, we stressed education. But to say they’ve got big money… but I’m sure you’ve got a question on that one too.

Mr. Snetter: Definitely. I was going to come to that, but before I do, Madam, you’ve been working for almost 50 years, as you say, mainly in the finance area – banking – over the years. I believe you were at Citibank, you were at the IMF, even before you went over to the UN. Have you ever been accused of embezzling money or things like that?

President Sirleaf: Never! As a matter of fact, the “Iron Lady” name that was given me doesn’t come from politics; it comes from my fiscal probity and the actions I have taken in enforcing people to be honest. And this is why, today, whatever people in Liberia say and accuse me wrongly, people all over the world with whom I have worked – I worked in the World Bank, I worked in Citibank, held responsible positions, worked in Equator Bank. In all of those places, I had access to people who had money or who had responsibility for money. Never once! And so it really hurts me when I hear people say, “The President steal money.” Me? No, no, no. Like I say, if they know what we went through in our upbringing with our mother, and honesty and the things that she did; if ever I was to even do something like that, I think my mother down there would find a way, that night, to beat me in my sleep. We are not even accustomed to that. We don’t do that. And so, I’m so glad that all of the people with whom I have dealt, over all of these 50 years of my work, you go and ask any of them, behind my back, about my honesty and my hard work. That’ll be the thing they will tell you about me, and that’s one thing I’m proud of. So those who are trying to destroy it, please stop. Please stop! Go and talk to anybody; even Liberians whom I’ve worked with want to sit and tell you, because they interact with me closely – some of them have worked with me for years. If I was doing things like that, they would be one of the first to know it. You go and talk to them confidently and they will tell you that. But then they will say, ‘”OK, we not saying about you, we know you’re alright, we know you don’t steal, but you’re not coming down on the people around you who steal.” That’s a different issue.

Mr. Snetter: Well, the issue right now, Madam President, is the big talk. We are still with the family. People said that one of your sons – and you know the one I’m going to talk about. Everybody has been talking about him, and that’s Robert. They say that Robert is a billionaire. Is there any truth in this?

President Sirleaf: I’m glad you asked that question. Let me come back once more about this. One of the problems here is that people are accustomed to people holding high political office that indulge in stealing. And so the mind-set of many of our people is that if you’re in that position, it’s not possible for you to do anything but the same that they know. They cannot accept that somebody can be different. But I ask people, please look carefully behind it. You will see that when people are brought up differently, when their life story is different, when their style is different, don’t throw them in that same basket.

My son, Robert. He lived out of this country from the time of high school, in the United States, where he grew up. He worked there, and for his whole professional life, after he completed school, he’s been working in the financial institutions in the U.S., at high levels. He was the highest black person in Wachovia, in Charlotte, U.S.A., before Wachovia went bust and turned over. So, he made money while he was there, huge bonuses. Today he has his house paid for in the U.S.; he has his car in the U.S.; he

5

has money invested in the U.S. Treasury Bonds and Bills because, over the years, he made good money. But to say he’s a billionaire, somebody doesn’t know money.

Mr. Snetter: Because they are saying that he has about 2.5 billion dollars.

President Sirleaf: I was glad that the people who said it immediately got calls from a few people, and they took it off their screen right away, because somebody was about to sue them or something. I’ll tell you the truth, I don’t even know how much money Rob has, because he won’t disclose that to me. But I do know that he has enough to be able to, every time I get broke, to call him and say I need so and so, and he will say alright, give me a week or so and I’ll try to do it. But he’s no billionaire; he’s not even a multi-millionaire. To tell you the truth, that kind of money I would know, and the way the newspapers have been carrying it, I was saying to somebody that I wish he had that kind of money; by that time we’d own all the radio stations and all the newspapers in Liberia, then they wouldn’t have to say anything bad anymore.

But, again, Rob is somebody who knows how to make money, because he’s connected with many of these corporate people he dealt with in the financial institutions. He knows how they work, and to tell you the truth, they like to deal with him because he talks their language; he’s been working with them for years, and he makes money for them. And so they know him. So if he has a project and he wants support and he goes to them, they will support it because they know that he knows what he’s doing, they have confidence in what he’s doing, and they know that on the basis of his performance over the years, he has earned it.

But this is Liberia, you know; we don’t make the time to really look into something, to try to get the facts, to talk to people who know better. It’s so easy to just throw out words, so easy to just accuse, and to just attribute to somebody something without even thinking carefully about it.

Mr. Snetter: Madam President, that is really sad, because we all live here, and we hear and see it every day. But before I leave the subject matter of the Johnson-Sirleaf family, let’s talk about the bond between you and your sister, Mrs. Jennie Bernard.

President Sirleaf: Aunty Jennie? Aunty Jennie gets a lot of beating for something she doesn’t know. I can tell you one thing: Aunty Jennie and her husband, Estrada Bernard, they even sold their house when they went into exile after the 1980 coup. But they’ve got another house that they live in; I think they’ve got some other land that they can’t even find. When they left here and went into exile, they all went to work in America; they didn’t go to any high-level jobs, they went there and worked. Aunty Jennie here doesn’t have shares in any company; she doesn’t own any company. But everybody comes to her to intervene; and so they come, they bring their story to her, she will come to me, she will “humbug” me, she will harass me to help them. I’m so glad that, because of her, I’m able to do my work, because she takes a lot of the load off me – things that would be coming to me. In fact, I think she’s bigger-hearted than I am; I mean the people that come to her door. But, also, we are so very close; as a matter of fact, all of my siblings – my other brother, Carney; our bigger brother Charles died. We are so close; that’s why we never fuss; property doesn’t mean very much to us, so family property doesn’t mean anything to any of us. We grew up differently, and Aunty Jennie is the glue in the family, because she holds us together; she is constantly taking loads off our shoulders and doing for us. For me, she’s more than a sister; she’s a sister, she’s a friend, she’s taken the place of my mother ’cause she’s always religious too, forcing me to praise and to prayers and all of that. So, I’m just so glad to have her with me, and I think they do her a grave injustice when they charge her with all of these things. She spends a lot of time 6

helping people. She’s a retired Registered Nurse. Sometimes I feel so sorry for her, because she gets so hurt. She tries to do so much good, and every time she helps somebody out, somebody says, “Oh, she’s doing it because she’s getting something out of it, or she’s got something in it.” Not so, whatsoever.

Mr. Snetter: That’s good to hear. I wish I could have that bond with my sisters and brothers because I only see them once in a while. It’s like in overnight, and then they’re gone. If you’ve just joined us, this is Charles Snetter with Her Excellency, Mrs. Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, in a special interview, and we’re talking about everything that we can lay our hands on today.

One thing, Madam President, and I’m sure you are very happy with, is the report that has just come out, the Ibrahim Index of African Governance. What do you have to say about that?

President Sirleaf: Charles, I was so glad to read that. And you know, it’s not like anybody doing Liberia a favor. It’s based on what we like to see: proper research, proper analysis, getting the information, and then being able to reach the conclusion. And the conclusion is clear: Liberia has made as much or more progress than any country in all of these areas. In the area of corruption, it’s there; it doesn’t say corruption has ended, but it says Liberia has made progress in curbing it. The rule of law: it’s very clear that Liberia is one of the highest in the rule of law. The time it takes to do business – all of these indicators that are so good. So I call upon Liberian intellectuals and those who have formed movements to track government’s progress: please look at what they have done. Do your own research and analysis. Give the devil its due. We don’t say everything is right; we’ve got plenty things we still got to do, we’ve still got plenty problems here. But when the government has made progress on the basis of scientific research, there’s no way you can deny it, and you must be able to recognize that. So I’m glad about the Mo Ibrahim report. We are still behind in some cases on the continental average; I’ve looked at it. So it means that we have room to do better, and we must do better. But I want to commend all of those who have worked on this, not just me. These are ministers; these are directors. I might even say that we want to thank the people in the NGO community because many times, by them forcing us, calling us to task when they think something is not going right, it’s a wake-up call for us, it re-energizes us, it makes us pay more attention, it makes us more effective in trying to correct where deficiencies are. So I want to thank everybody who has done this – the critics, as well as the supporters – because we need both in society if we will stay on our toes and we will continue to make progress.

Mr. Snetter: OK, let’s go to the government. Of late, especially during your second term, we seem to see that you are putting more young people in your government, especially as ministers. You’ve got the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Commerce, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Lands, Mines & Energy, and the Minister of Transport. All are young people. Why?

President Sirleaf: The future belongs to the young people. We must start making way for them; we want to, in certain ways, be their mentors – those of us that come from the older generations. I am so glad that we are doing that, because that’s the vibrancy, that’s the dynamism of the society, that the young people can step up to the plate. And besides those who are ministers, look below that, at the Deputy level, at the Assistant levels. The President’s Young Professionals Program (PYP) is training a whole lot of young people that are preparing themselves, under mentorship with Ministers, and with Deputy Ministers, to be ready to step into their shoes. Our Scholarship Program: people don’t know it – I will ask someone to do something on that – concerning our young people all over the world at different institutions, in Africa as well as elsewhere, preparing themselves to be able to come back and infuse the civil service with this talent that has been lacking. That is why sometimes our programs are so slow in

7

implementation, because the national capacity is still below the level required. But it’s coming up now; and with all of these young people taking responsibility, it’s beginning to make a difference. I’m just pleased with all the young people; I want to thank them. Sometimes I feel very sorry for them, when people accuse them, “O, all of your stealing; all these people just rogues.” It’s not true. I’m not saying there are not some bad apples – and those bad apples we’re trying to find them out and take action against them – but many of the young people work so hard, and the compensation they get is far below what they should be getting to enable them. It’s not fair, sometimes, when people just have a broad stroke and just accuse all of them of impropriety and malpractices, when some of them are working so hard. So I want to say thanks to all of the young people who work so hard, and to be patient. What they’re doing is for the country; they’re doing it for a better day. They’re doing it for their children and their children’s children. They need to just stay strong, even in the midst of false accusations.

Mr. Snetter: Madam, I’ve been around this earth for enough time, and I’ve lived in various countries, all over the world, because of my father’s job in diplomatic posts. I’ve lived in countries where you couldn’t say hello to people or you’d get in trouble. Freedom of speech in Liberia. You’ve opened the door; the flood is already all over. And then all of a sudden people are saying all kinds of bad things. What do you have to say about this?

President Sirleaf: Well, sometimes you have to suffer injustice for a greater cause. We’re not very happy when people use freedom without responsibility. Our Constitution and our laws call for that. Yes, you can say what you want to say, but you stand responsible for what you say if somebody challenges you for saying something that is false. I look at it like the pendulum. Like you said, many years ago, people were afraid to say certain things or to write certain things. The pendulum has swung to the other extreme now, where people say anything. The Presidency is always a respected institution. People do not abuse and say things about the Presidency, because it brings it into disrepute and takes away from the high propriety of that office. Even if you don’t like the person who’s holding it, you’ve got to respect it. Sometimes our people don’t know the difference with this. It’s harmful, but like I said, the pendulum is there; we now hope that people will begin to bring it in the center where, yes, no freedom of speech will be restricted, and certainly we’re not going to move or take action against anybody for saying things, even when they say things that are untrue, even when they say things that are false. The price we have to pay today – those of us who want to promote this freedom – is that we will have to suffer this pain of false accusation to enable people to have this. But people must protect it, because today it’s me, willing to allow this freedom to prevail. But if they continue to abuse it, tomorrow I will not be there, and then you might find that this hard-won freedom that many of you – yourself included, Charles, who, over the years, have paid a heavy price for this freedom – they will find that they may lose it again, because of the irresponsibility of some people who don’t know how to balance freedom with responsibility.

Mr. Snetter: Madam, I’m so filled, because I was about to say, why don’t you form like a bogeyman team that will take care of some of these bad things. But it’s not in your forte, as you say.

About two months ago, I was in my office and all of a sudden I saw your motorcade passing by, and I said, where is Madam President going this morning? You went to LEC. What happened there?

President Sirleaf: I got word from the Minister of Lands & Mines that our program for bringing electricity to the communities was far behind schedule because the management of the electricity company, which also includes some foreign technical management arrangement, just had a lot of the supplies that should really be out there, in the communities: poles and wires and transformers and all of 8

those things that should be preparing to give our people lights. You just have containers and containers and containers sitting out there in the open. I was so annoyed when I heard it. I went out there to look at it myself. What’s going on here? We promised lights to the people. They need to be doing that. They had all their explanations about the time it took to get it, and what they will do. I went out there to give them a piece of lip, and tell them we’re not going to allow this kind of delay and slippage; and so we’re working now to make some arrangement with the management. The rainy season is coming to an end; for the dry season, where we promised, in terms of bringing electricity to our communities, those commitments have to be met. I went out there myself, so that when I take a certain position and take certain actions, it will not be on the basis of what people tell me, it will be on the basis of what I saw myself.

Mr. Snetter: You’re planning to go back there?

President Sirleaf: I will have some in-house meetings first, to see if all of the things we’ve agreed are made. I’ve made some changes in the LEC Board level; I will make some more changes there. I will meet with the concerned entities; they will give me a status report of what they have done since I left there; what needs to be done. But dry season, many people will be in trouble with me because I will stay home little bit so I can get out there, not only in different places here but all over the country, whether they expect it or don’t expect it, or whether they plan it, I will just be going any place to see because my mandate to the Liberian people is to bring as much development as I can before this administration ends, and I intend to do just that. Right now, I’m running out of time, so I’m on the warpath. I’m on the path of pushing people to the limit, to be able to achieve those development goals that we have set.

Mr. Snetter: Not only LEC, but all over?

President Sirleaf: All over. In every sector we’re behind. Sometimes I think we’re too slow. I know it is a capacity problem – many of our people don’t have the expertise, but also some don’t have the commitment and the sense of urgency, saying “O, man, we will do it tomorrow.” Anybody who tells me anything about Joseph Jenkins Roberts didn’t finish it, you will be finished!

Mr. Snetter: During the last campaign season, we were right across the road from here – I believe it was one of the last days of the campaign – when the helicopter came and threw posters and other things down. You were having some fun, and you said, in your short statement, “Everybody wants to be President because of one thing: we now find oil.” How is this oil thing going now, Madam?

President Sirleaf: You know, the one thing about this oil business is we haven’t yet seen the first drop of oil. Yes, we gave contracts to different people to put some rigs to dig down under the sea and see if there’s oil there. They tell us it’s a good change oil is there, because there’s oil in Ghana, oil in Ivory Coast, oil in other places. But to tell us now, the oil is there and enough of it to be able to pay back all the money that we will spend to be able to get the oil out – that’s what we don’t have yet. But we expect that it will happen. So that has given me the opportunity to make sure that we set up something so that if and when the oil does come, that it will not be subject to misuse, subject to ending up in different private pockets and not going towards the national good. That’s why we have the petroleum reform under way right now. The Legislature is a party to that; they are playing a very active role – the Speaker, the Pro-Tempore, the different Committee Chairs. I’m glad that before Robert Sirleaf left NOCAL, one of his main assignments was to get that petroleum reform. He worked with technicians from the World Bank, from the U.S. Geological Service, from ACET [the African Centre for Economic Transformation] and with some Norwegians. They worked to put a new NOCAL Act together, to put a 9

new Petroleum Sharing Agreement together, which will give a company the right to look for oil. They have done all those documents and they have been working with the Legislature. I understand that next week the Legislature will be having consultations all around the country with these new documents, taking it to the people for them to see what’s in it, listening to the people so that with this process everybody will be satisfied. I would like to see us use the oil to: (1) develop our infrastructure. We don’t have enough money from our budget to build the roads, particularly to pave the roads, which is the only way we can do it; (2) to make sure that everybody gets lights and water, and our hospitals and our schools are functioning right. Our budget isn’t enough. Even if you add what our partners give us, it’s still not enough. But if oil money comes, (1) infrastructure, particularly roads, power, ports because those are the essential things that make everything else happen in the country. After that, to put money aside for future generations, so that we the current people in government, or the current people in the country, can’t waste it all, so that your children, and your children’s children will also have money that will be ready for them to continue the work of government. Of course, there should also be money to support out budget, so our budget can get bigger, so we can be able to raise civil service pay or raise officials’ pay. But that reform must make sure that that money does not just come in and then the few people who are in power will decide what they will do with it. No. The law, and more than the law, must dictate that to protect our people. That was Rob’s assignment. His job is finished; the Legislature is working on that now, and they can be assured that in my four years I want to make sure that all those laws are in place. I will not see the oil. When the oil finally comes, even if tomorrow they say, yes, we’ve got enough oil to cover our expenses, it will take a good five, six years before you export that first barrel. So, I will not be there. But I will make sure that we fix it in such a way that people will not steal that oil.

Mr. Snetter: There’s been a big cry all around here by individuals – people might not even think that they are of importance – but the people are listening to them. They’re crying and yelling for you to step down. What do you have to say about that, Madam?

President Sirleaf: Well, you know, that’s part of the freedom of speech, which we respect, but I do not believe that that represents the views and the desires of the majority of the people in this country. And I’m glad, when they came out on my return home, it demonstrated to all the others who are saying that. We saw their numbers. When I went to New York, and they wanted to protest, the supporters far outweighed the dissenters. And so, when they say step down, I’m sorry; they forget that I was elected by the majority of the people in this country to serve a mandate until January 2018, when I turn over to the person they will select in October 2017. Part of my mandate is to make sure that the election is free and fair and transparent, and that the person who will take over from me truly represents the choice of the people. I must work with the Elections Commission and everybody to ensure that nobody must hijack this process, not only because of me, but for Liberia. Liberia has to exercise political maturity. We have had two elections, accepted by the international community despite the small problems that came up in both cases. That third election will be the one that, when we get past that, people will say yes, Liberia is now on the path of being politically stable, and we can now form strong partnerships with them, knowing that tomorrow there will not be any upheaval or any undemocratic change in the government. All Liberians must work towards that because it’s good for them.

Mr. Snetter: The educational system. You’ve been talking about it, and there’s a lot of work going on in that area right now. There’s a school that you, Madam President, and also the Vice President attended. How do you feel when you pass by that school every now and then? Are you happy the way it’s looking now? The fact of the matter is I do believe that Mary Broh also attended that school.

10

President Sirleaf: I was about to say Charles, you’re talking about CWA [College of West Africa]. To put it very crudely, I shame oh! Every time I pass by that place, I say O Lord. If you consider the fact that you can go as far back as Rudolph Grimes, former Secretary of State; Gabriel Dennis, way, way back there; all of those people came out of CWA. And then you come down this long line until you get to today. Aaah! And CWA looks like that? That’s really bad. We tried, with one of our supporters – one of our Honorary Consuls put up some money a few years ago, they re-fixed the building, and we thought everything was alright. No maintenance, no this. There have been several CWA Alumni Associations formed; I don’t know why we can’t get it right. Even the whole organization of the school, aaah! And the Vice President and I, holding the highest positions in the land. The other day I went to the anniversary dinner for Ricks Institute, and some of the people are in government. I looked at it and said, if they can have a successful dinner for Ricks Institute, what’s wrong with us? Anyway, they say that too many cooks spoil the soup. We’ve got too many big people coming out of CWA, that we can’t focus enough to do it. But I think that the Vice President and I have a responsibility to now step in. The young people are in charge of the Alumni Association now, but they don’t have the means, they don’t have the experience to get an endowment fund. Today, every year I get something from Harvard University that they send to everybody. I do it sometimes, I don’t do it sometimes, but it’s in the spirit of recognizing the institution, what they have done to train you and to make you what you are today. And so we have to have an endowment fund for CWA, and all of those who have benefited from CWA must do it. Alex Cummings, who is one of the highest in the senior management of Coca-Cola, he was here and he, too, was ashamed. He said, “Look, your got to do something about it; I’m willing to help so we can get a good principal, we can get good teachers.” Because that’s the key to the whole thing. But I don’t want to get into too much detail in the interview, but the Vice President and I have been talking about it, and we intend to do something very soon to correct that situation.

Mr. Snetter: You talked about the oil; hopefully if we find the oil, revenue from it will be used for infrastructure – roads and things like that. The little that we’ve had – I’m part of Liberia; we’ve done a lot. During your administration, we’ve built a beautiful highway, going all the way to Buchanan City; we’ve redone all the roads, as much as we can, in Monrovia. What plans are there to protect what we have now, to make sure it’s not misused. For instance, the Buchanan Highway. There’s a lot of movement, hopefully, soon, when the logging activities start. Are there any plans for a weigh bridge? We definitely know that there are companies here presently, such as SGS or even APM Terminals, who have the expertise. Are any arrangements being made that these infrastructures will not just deteriorate overnight?

President Sirleaf: Yes. Specifically, I can tell you that the new budget calls for the purchase of certain weigh bridges to start that process. The budget is not concluded, so I don’t have the full story on what’s in there. But, yes, maintenance has been one of our big problems. We build the roads, we spend a lot of money, then no maintenance. I’m told that some of the roads that we built are already beginning to show signs of stress and deterioration. I am hoping that the new Minister of Public Works, with her team, will now sit down and address this problem and come up with a long-term solution. That’s why we have a new arrangement. For the Buchanan Road, we did it the old way because we wanted to do it fast. But in the Red Light to Gbarnga and the Gbarnga to Ganta roads, which are under way, that is a 10-year program with the contractor, whereby they will also maintain the road. That was built into the contract. But Public Works has set up the proper mechanism to make sure that these roads are maintained on a continuing basis. Our rains are heavy; if we don’t have proper maintenance, we keep spending money every year, over and over, to re-fix the same things. We will be coming back to the public, as we now hold our meetings to have the planning, to get these processes started. We may have to take some

11

strong measures; for example, certain places where people are using heavy trucks on roads and deteriorating the roads, we may have to either stop them or make them pay for the maintenance. So people should be prepared for that. We may have to impose a small amount of tax on petroleum, to be able to build up a maintenance fund for the roads. But I do believe that people will understand when we take these measures, because they themselves get tired of every year they are riding these bad roads that are not maintained, and they know that we have to do it. We haven’t done that as yet, but as we now begin to spend huge sums of money to fix the roads, we have to maintain them so that we don’t keep adding to its cost. We only ask the public for a little bit of patience. We have to get that done.

Mr. Snetter: There are some concerns with reference to our poor people in this country, when it comes to the fluctuation of our rates in Liberia. What do you have to say about that, Madam?

President Sirleaf: I believe you’re talking about the exchange rate. Let me put it in a broader context. Right now, the economy is not performing like it should. First of all, we did a lot to mobilize foreign investment; we brag about the $16, $17 billion. The people don’t write a check when they commit to $16 billion. You have a 10-year, 20-year commitment, and you agree on the things they will do. They will build plantations, or they will open mines, or they will start this. Then you have to work with them to enable them to turn those operations into jobs, into revenue for the government, into infrastructure improvement. Our process has been slow because of some of the problems we inherited from the past. You start a plantation, you run into land issues because people have sold land illegally or communities have not been properly informed about their benefits and their obligations. And so it stops for a year or two. Well, if it stops, all of these benefits we’re talking about will not happen. So you’ve got to sort that one out.

Our own selves, being able to make the government meet its obligations through our institutions for that purpose. The slowness in concluding; sometimes we make these commitments, and say this person has committed $2.5 billion. But then it takes two years for us to conclude the negotiations and whatnot because we’re travelling all over the place, we’ve got much other work to do. So it gets slowed down. That is one thing we have to correct. Our revenue will not increase unless those things are operating at the pace that we say when we decided to make those commitments.

The exchange rate is based upon the amount of money that’s in the system. Again, if people, like they’ve been doing, get on the air and make a lot of confusion, and talk about step down; there will be this; there will be this protest; we’re going to march, we’ll demonstrate; we’ll bring everything to a halt; the country devil coming out to be able to stop the company from doing their work. What do you think the investor does? Money scared of confusion; they run away. So when they hear this, they say, ah, we don’t know what’s happening to Liberia; Liberia coming to go back into war? Is Liberia coming to go back into chaos? Something’s going to happen, so let’s take our money. So they’ve been taking money out of the system. Some of the things that people are doing are not bad-intentioned; they’re creating noise, some of it to just let us pay attention to them; some of it genuine expression of concern. But there’s a manner in which to do it. You can raise those same concerns and resolve them instead of getting on the air and scaring everybody, scaring the investor, scaring the business people. Business people carry the prices up: Let’s make our money quick because we don’t know, tomorrow maybe we will not be here. All of them begin to plan how they can begin to hide their money.

Even some of our own officials, who just open up and talk about people. You expose people’s bank accounts. So they say, next time I’m not putting my money in the bank again; I’d better take it and hide it; and when they go to Ghana or somewhere else, they carry it in their little bag. This is what takes away 12

from the economy, and when people do not know the consequences of the things they say and the things they do. So all of that has affected the economy.

Of course, the budget has also been slow in being completed, because we had a lot of problems that needed to be corrected. I’ve been working with the leadership of the Legislature to correct them. We hope we’ll complete that process soon. So the money is not going into the system like it should. The Central Bank needs a certain large amount of money every week to be able to auction foreign exchange, to auction the dollars. If they don’t have enough there to be able to give to the people, then it means that if you’ve got too many people chasing few dollars, then obviously the price goes up, just like any commodity. If everybody is buying the same commodity and putting money after it, the person who’s selling it will carry it up to make a profit. And then you’ve also got profiteers here; if the Central Bank has an auction and they set the rate for 80, somebody may say, hmmm, the thing that’s going on, I think maybe I’ll carry my part to 84, I can make my little extra profit.

We are aware of this problem; we have to do something about it. As a matter of fact, as soon as this interview is over, my Senior Economist is coming for us to go over these same issues so we can prepare. When the Minister of Finance returns to the country next week, we are going to make a major statement on the economy, touching in detail some of these things I have mentioned; telling them what have been some of the reasons; where we are today; what measures we intend to take; and how we expect to have the economy functioning full-blast as we planned in a certain period of time.

Mr. Snetter: Madam, before I leave you, we know you’ve already touched base on it but, four more years to go before you hand over. What extra change would you like to see during these four years?

President Sirleaf: We want to continue our work, to be able to make sure that all the primary roads are paved. That, in itself, will give a major boost to the economy. We want to continue, and it doesn’t involve so much change as making sure the changes we’ve already instituted are really concluded effectively. Making sure that we have enough power supply to drive down the cost of power which is hurting all the small businesses, I’m sure including your own, because of the heavy bill. So we want to make sure that the changes will be bringing in new facilities and making them work.

We have to make some changes in the fight against corruption, too. We have fought corruption; we have made progress. Sometimes people don’t realize it, but it’s still there, and it’s not there just because people blame government officials. Everybody says “Oh, we’re looking for the big fish.” But there are hundreds of small fishes in this corruption sea, that are also giving us a lot of trouble. What new measures we can take? Aside from prevention, where we’ve done a lot, we have do more in punishment. How do we change the mind-set of people, to let them know that corruption is wrong, that it takes away from things that will benefit them? Because if you steal from a store, the store will increase the price of their goods, and everybody suffers. If you steal from the Ministry of Finance through some cheating, the revenue drops, and it means we can’t increase civil service pay. How do we bring this message to the people, for them to understand it? We’ve got to continue the conventional way, but we’ve also have to come up with new measures. Let me ask all of the people out there who always talk about corruption and such. Please, we accept the criticism; but now help us to find solutions. Give us some good new ideas that we can build into our corruption fight. We’ve got the Whistleblower Act; nobody takes advantage of it. Please read it. Oh no, I won’t say nobody – one person has benefited from it. Nobody knows about it, but that person did get the reward that is called for under the Act. The government realized the savings, the person got their reward, but they were quiet, and they have the right to be quiet. We need some new innovative ways to deal with corruption. 13

The other thing is reconciliation. We need changes in what we do about that too. We’re going to launch this Palava Hut in Zwedru on Saturday, but that’s not enough. The Independent National Human Rights Commission will be reconstituted so they can carry out their work, but, again, we have to deal with the individuals and their own commitment to peace, to reconciliation, to unity. What do we do? It has to go beyond the laws, and that’s where we’re looking for people who… we’ve got all these Sociology majors. This is the time for them to now come and show us their stuff by saying, we think you should do one, two three four, five and that will help, to be able to solve corruption or to enhance the process of reconciliation. Those are the things where we’re looking for changes. We’ll continue the change and reform already started, to make the results more effective, more permanent, more sustainable. We invite people to give us ideas. The government is open, the government wants to be a partner with civil society, with the Council of Churches in reconciliation – and the Council of Churches is working with us, and we thank them for what they have done – with political parties. These days I hear many movements are getting started, and these movements tend to be very positive because they want to be a part of positive change. We want to encourage them, but tell them don’t just stop by getting on the air; give us some concrete suggestions so we can be able to partner with you and work with you for the good of the country.

I call myself a rabid optimist – it means intense, overly enthusiastic – for the future of Liberia, because I think Liberia has great potential, and I think the Liberian people, having shown the resilience that they have over all these years of difficulties, have the potential to rise above what we face now and to really come together as one people and make Liberia the truly great nation that it’s meant to be.

Mr. Snetter: Madam President, we want to say thank you so much for this interview. We were really honored and privileged to have been able to talk to you today. We want to wish you well.

President Sirleaf: You got what they say, a scoop, because I haven’t given an interview like this for a long time. I thank you because I think most of your questions were well thought out, very topical, and it provides me an opportunity to continue to, if not interact, certainly to inform the Liberian people of where we are, and how we can all work together for a great nation.

Mr. Snetter: Thank you, Madam President. We’ve been speaking to the President of the Republic of Liberia, Mrs. Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, in this special interview. My name is Charles Snetter. Thanks for listening.

Prepared by the Public Affairs Department Ministry of State for Presidential Affairs October 27, 2013

14