Thursday Volume 559 7 March 2013 No. 126
HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)
Thursday 7 March 2013
£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1099 7 MARCH 2013 1100
Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman is simply wrong House of Commons about the consequences. I note that in the other place yesterday evening, their Lordships, having carefully Thursday 7 March 2013 considered the evidence, supported the Government’s position.
The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Last night at the meeting of the all-party parliamentary PRAYERS group on cheese, the Minister was able to see a wide array of excellent British cheeses, which are highly regarded in the world markets. I know that the Secretary [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] of State has done good work promoting British cheese in China. What other countries will the Department target on behalf of these excellent British products? Oral Answers to Questions Mr Heath: I think we have to do everything we can to promote excellent British products. Indeed, I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend said about cheese. I was ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS delighted to see cheese from my own constituency on display at last night’s meeting, but I was even more delighted only last week to see cheese produced only The Secretary of State was asked— four miles from where I live on display in Dubai at the biggest international trade fair in the world. We were Rural Economy promoting the interests of British business, and over 60 businesses were there. I will also be pleased to join 1. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): What policies British companies in promoting good British produce his Department is putting in place to increase growth in in Bangkok next week. the rural economy. [146575] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Minister will be aware of a good article and the very fine Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): Stimulating speech given just this week to the Engineering Employers economic growth is the top priority for this Government. Federation by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation We want to see rural areas contributing to and benefiting and Skills. Much of what he is saying would regenerate from that growth. A £165 million package of measures the rural economy, but he is also a passionate supporter from the 2011 rural economy growth review is helping of crowd funding and crowd sourcing, which many of rural communities. We are improving superfast broadband us see as a regenerative tool in towns and in the rural infrastructure in the remotest areas and boosting key economy. What does the Minister think of that? sectors such as tourism. We are increasing export potential and unlocking barriers to growth by removing red tape. Mr Heath: I think that any tool that is effective in urban areas is likely to be effective in rural areas as well. Julian Sturdy: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. I have repeatedly sought to make the point not only that He is right that superfast broadband is one of the key rural areas must not miss out on economic regeneration drivers of growth in the rural community. York and but that they are in many ways in a position to lead, as North Yorkshire have made great progress on delivering they have a huge contribution to make. I want to ensure the Government’s target of 90% coverage by 2015. that every single community in this country has the However, there is a danger that the digital divide could opportunity to enjoy the benefits of economic growth widen for some rural communities in the other 10% of as it develops. cases. Will my hon. Friend do all he can to push the case for those rural communities? Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The residents of 22 villages in the borough of Kettering are concerned Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. about petrol and diesel prices, rural crime and the We must make sure that the advantages of high-speed access to and cost of off-grid energy, as well as access to broadband reach every community across the country, rural broadband. What representations to the relevant which is exactly what we are determined to do in time. Government Departments has my hon. Friend made on The good news is that we are reaching an extra 100,000 those important issues? households a week, so they now have the opportunity to use high-speed broadband. I think that is very good Mr Heath: This Department has a responsibility for news and we will, of course, continue to roll out the rural proofing across government, which means that we programme across the country. continually have a dialogue with other Departments about all the factors that have the potential to hold Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): If the Minister back individuals, businesses and communities in rural is so committed to boosting rural growth, why is he areas. The hon. Gentleman may be assured that we taking out of the pockets of poor agricultural workers a constantly make the point that we must have a clear quarter of a billion pounds-worth of money by abolishing regard for the more than 80% of the landmass that is the Agricultural Wages Board, which was opposed by rural Britain. It comprises only 20% of the population, two thirds of those in the consultation, including many but it is nevertheless enormously important to the fabric farmers? of this country. 1101 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1102
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): How I wish The hon. Gentleman cannot come here and try to compare that I had a pair of the Minister’s rose-tinted spectacles. apples with pears. Labour Members must move on from In fact, the Government’s national economic strategy is this, and understand that we are doing what we need to shot; rural growth is further constrained by inflation do in very difficult financial circumstances. running at double the national average, higher costs of living and working; and the slow roll-out of rural Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) broadband is leading to open warfare around the Cabinet (Con): In February, the Minister announced £10.8 million table. How does the Minister believe that taking another of capital to upgrade the tidal defences on the east bank quarter of a billion pounds out of the rural economy of the River Arun in Littlehampton, in my constituency. and the pockets of low-paid farm workers by scrapping That is a welcome decision, which demonstrates the the Agricultural Wages Board will jump-start the rural Government’s commitment to building new flood defences, economy? but it is not time for the insurance industry to match that commitment by agreeing to a replacement for the Mr Heath: I spent 13 years on the Opposition Benches flood insurance statement of principles, which expires trying to press the case for rural areas. The then Labour in June this year? Government did not listen to what was said in rural areas then, and I note that the hon. Gentleman is not Richard Benyon: I congratulate my hon. Friend on listening now to the realities of what is happening in the excellent work that he did in drawing attention to those areas and the realities of what is happening in the the needs of the people of Littlehampton following the agricultural industry. If he did, he would take a very floods that they suffered so recently. We are working at different position. a very fast tempo at the highest levels of Government to try to achieve an agreement which will massively improve Flood Defences on the statement of principles, which first does not cover every home and secondly contains nothing about 2. Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): What assessment affordability. We want a better system for the future. he has made of the effects of partnership funding on the provision of flood defences. [146577] Extreme Weather
TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, 3. Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): What steps he Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): Partnership is taking to prepare and adapt homes, businesses, funding is enabling more schemes to go ahead and agricultural practices and infrastructure against the allowing greater local choice. It has already produced up threat of flooding and water scarcity resulting from the to £148 million in external funding over the four years to increased frequency of extreme weather. [146578] 2015, compared with £13 million during the previous three years. There are indications that a larger proportion TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, of protected households will be in deprived areas, and Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): The Government up to a quarter more schemes are set to go ahead in the will publish a report on the national adaptation programme coming years than was the case under the old system. later this year, which will set out actions to address the impacts of the increased frequency of extreme weather Mel Stride: The additional funding will be most welcome events on the built environment, our infrastructure network, to my constituents—not least those in Buckfastleigh businesses, our farming and forestry sectors, the natural and Kennford, who were grievously affected by the recent environment and our health. The Government are spending flooding—but may I urge my hon. Friend to ensure that £2.3 billion on reducing the risk from flooding and it is rolled out as quickly as possible, and may I also ask coastal erosion over this four-year period. him how many properties in Devon will benefit from it? Barry Gardiner: I am grateful to the Minister for his Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend has been a strong response. He will know that last year in the UK flooding advocate for his constituents, who suffered so much flooding was experienced on one in every five days, while on one last year, and his question is entirely understandable. I in every four days there was drought subject to a hosepipe can tell him that £35 million of the £120 million that we ban. One in seven houses and 10% of the country’s announced in the autumn statement last year is already critical infrastructure are now exposed to flood risk, yet available for the 2013-14 financial year, and that the by 2014-15 some 23% less will be spent on these matters. remaining £85 million will be allocated to schemes Will the Minister consider the exhortation from the starting in 2014-15. That means that 5,000 homes in chairman of the Environment Agency to take urgent Devon will benefit from additional funds. action now to avoid the coming problems?
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Will Richard Benyon: The hon. Gentleman makes a very the Minister confirm that even with the money announced good point about the extremes of weather we have in the autumn statement, capital spending by his experienced in the last 12 months. We were facing a real Department in 2013-14 will be less than it was in 2008? problem with drought, and there was a 3% chance of getting a sufficiently wet summer to alleviate it, yet it Richard Benyon: That old chestnut must be laid to happened. However, it has of course brought huge rest. In cash terms, we are spending roughly the same other problems. I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s in this comprehensive spending review period as the point about the level of spending—I refer him back to hon. Gentleman’s party spent in the last one. His Chancellor, my response to the previous question—and I can assure in his last Budget statement, announced 50% cuts him that we listen very carefully to experts in the EA. in capital budgets for Departments such as mine. When we asked its leadership what further projects it 1103 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1104 could bring forward if we found extra money, it told us Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Backstreet puppy and we got the money; that was announced in the farms are a problem in the entire United Kingdom. As September statement. a Northern Ireland MP, I am also aware of such farms in the Republic of Ireland, with puppies coming through Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): What can the Northern Ireland to the UK and going directly from the Minister do to assist residents who live near small Republic of Ireland to the UK mainland. Has the tributaries and who cannot understand which authority Minister had any discussions about this problem with is responsible for them? There seems to be confusion the Government in the Republic of Ireland, so that the between highways authorities, the EA, local councils United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and county councils as to who has responsibility for together with the Republic of Ireland can address it? clearing the waterways around tributaries. Mr Heath: I will certainly draw that point to the Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend makes a very good attention of my noble Friend the Under-Secretary and point. This matter was discussed at yesterday’s EA see whether he has had an opportunity to speak to his board meeting and we are in close touch with the EA counterparts in the Republic of Ireland and also in and other organisations. There is a degree of confusion. Northern Ireland on the issue. If he has not, I am sure That was brought out in the Pitt review. Some effort has he will want to take up the suggestion that has been been put in, and some progress has been made in made. addressing the problem, but I absolutely concede we are not there yet and there is still confusion about who is EU Regulation responsible and what the priorities are. We want to make sure that the priorities are protecting people and their properties and the environment. 5. Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): What steps he is taking to reduce the costs of EU regulations affecting Puppy Farms farmers and food producers. [146580]
4. George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): The Minister of State, Department for Environment, What recent representations his Department has Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): Weare committed received on tackling the problem of backstreet puppy to reducing regulatory costs on farmers and food processors. In the EU we are working closely with the Commission farms and breeders. [146579] to ensure that all new proposals adhere to the Commission’s The Minister of State, Department for Environment, communications on smart regulation and the Government’s Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): In addition guiding principles for EU legislation. We are reducing to a recent Environment, Food and Rural Affairs unnecessary burdens from existing legislation through Committee report on dog control and welfare, my noble our response to the farming taskforce, with initiatives Friend the Under-Secretary, Lord de Mauley, has received that include taking action to simplify paperwork and a number of letters on the subject of puppy farms, improve the way on-farm inspections are performed. irresponsible breeders and the internet advertising of dogs. The Animal Welfare Act 2006 provides the necessary Priti Patel: Figures from my hon. Friend’s Department powers for local authorities to investigate allegations of show that in the past two years, 67 EU regulations have poor welfare among all dog breeders. been passed, adding £500 million in costs to British farmers and producers. What steps is he taking to George Eustice: I am grateful for that answer. In the support our farmers by cutting back on EU regulations Committee’s recent inquiry, we received evidence that a and cutting the costs of the EU for British farmers? contributory factor in respect of the problem of status dogs is the number of backstreet puppy breeders, because Mr Heath: Not all those costs will impact on farmers dogs are more likely to become aggressive and and food processors, of course, but the hon. Lady raises unmanageable if they are not socialised and cared for a valid point about the cost of EU regulation that I properly in the first few months. The law currently hope is not lost on Members of the European Parliament allows people to breed up to five puppy litters a year and European Commissioners. That is precisely why we without licensing, but we recommended that the figure are committed to making progress on our better regulation should be reduced to two. Will the Minister look carefully agenda and why at EU level we continue to press for all at that proposal? new proposals to adhere to the Commission’s smart regulation policy.We are also abiding by this Government’s Mr Heath: I have every sympathy with the reasoning principles for EU legislation, which include regulating behind the hon. Gentleman’s proposal, and I certainly only when there are no alternatives and ensuring that deplore the irresponsible breeding of dogs. I can assure there is no gold-plating when introducing European him that it is already the case that if a local authority measures into UK law. considers that someone is in the business of breeding and selling dogs but they have produced fewer than five Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): When I met the litters in a year, a licence would still be needed, and any Minister on 10 December last year to discuss my Food dog-breeding establishment that produces five or more Waste Bill, he promised he would give me a copy of the litters in a 12-month period will also need a licence advice his Department had received from the Food regardless of whether it is considered to be in the Standards Agency about whether the provisions in the business of breeding and selling dogs. Guidance on that Bill to remove civil and criminal liability from good was given to local authorities back in 1999, explaining faith donors of food waste would be compatible with precisely where those responsibilities lie. EU food safety regulations, as it was suggested by his 1105 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1106
Department that they were not. I am still waiting for a Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): copy of that advice despite chasing the Department—can The Food Standards Agency has a big role to play in he update me on that? this regard and I believe that it has failed to step up to the plate. Following the capability review that was completed Mr Heath: I can only apologise that the hon. Lady in January and the work being undertaken by the National has not yet received that information. I will look into Audit Office, when might the Government be minded to the matter in the Department to ensure that she gets make proposals to reform the FSA? what she has asked for. Mr Paterson: I have to remind my hon. Friend and Food Adulteration the House that this is an overall European competence. Under regulation 178/2002 we must work within the European regime, and having an independent agency is 6. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): very much part of that. I pay tribute to the work that What recent discussions he has had on the adulteration the agency has conducted under great pressure in recent of food in the UK. [146581] weeks, working very closely with the industry and conducting an extraordinarily large number of tests—5,430, 12. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): What as I said. Once we have seen where this criminal conspiracy recent discussions he has had on the adulteration of began and once we have found the criminals—I remind food in the UK. [146587] the House that this is an international problem, with 23 countries involved—we will begin to look at the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural lessons learned. I am clear that within this regime we Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): On 25 and 27 February I must have more testing of product and more random updated the House on the discussions I have had on the testing of finished product. adulteration of food in the UK with the food industry and at a European level. I continue to have regular Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Does the update discussions with the Food Standards Agency Secretary of State agree that one of the lessons that we and I shall also be meeting the food industry on a can learn from this is to have much better, honest regular basis. labelling and to know exactly where our processed meat product comes from and that it is produced to good Andrew Miller: Obviously, this is not just about farm-assured standards such as the red tractor scheme adulteration with horsemeat. I am sure that the Secretary in this country? of State will agree that consumers have the right to know everything about the content of food that is sold to them. Will he reassure the House about whether he Mr Paterson: I agree that clearer labelling could help, has done a proper analysis of the capacity of British but we are up against a criminal conspiracy and I think laboratories to undertake the research necessary to give the criminals would have got through. I had a constructive consumers the confidence that they are entitled to? meeting with the French, German, Austrian and Finnish Ministers in Brussels last week, and we are asking the European Commission to accelerate its report on the Mr Paterson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his labelling and marking of the country of origin. question and entirely agree that no matter what the price of a product, it must be as marked on the label and as sold. To do otherwise is a fraud on the public. He Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): On 22 February asks about laboratory capacity. We need only look at Sodexo announced that it had found horsemeat in a what has happened: in an extraordinarily short time in beef product and withdrew meat from schools in recent weeks, the industry has conducted 5,430 tests Gloucestershire, Southampton and Leicestershire and that have shown that less than 1% of the products are the armed forces. Sodexo has refused publicly to name adulterated. the product, the level of horse adulteration or the meat company which supplied it, thereby preventing other Ian Murray: May I draw the House’s attention to a organisations from knowing whether their supplies are non-declarable interest as a former employee of the at risk. The Government know the name of that meat Meat Hygiene Service? It costs approximately £170 to supplier. Will the Secretary of State now name that test each slaughtered horse for bute, yet the meat is company so that the rest of the public sector can check worth only about £300. The industry has talked a lot its supplies? about full cost recovery, so will the Minister tell the House when the taxpayer will stop having to pick up the Mr Paterson: I discussed this issue yesterday with the bill for bute testing and how much he estimates the total chief executive of the Food Standards Agency, who is bill will be? completely satisfied that the information required from Sodexo has been supplied. The hon. Lady must understand Mr Paterson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that that there is an investigation going on and in some of question, which is very relevant. We have cauterised the these cases it might lead to criminal prosecution. problem of bute getting into the food chain, as no horse [Interruption.] No, the FSA is clear that it must be carcase can enter the food chain until it has tested guarded about what information can be revealed in case negative for bute, but he is right to raise that question. the investigations are impinged upon. This is a holding position. I had a meeting with senior members of the horse industry recently because the Mary Creagh: I find that answer extraordinary. The horse passport scheme that we inherited is unsatisfactory. Secretary of State has a duty to tell the public what he We will make proposals on that in due course. knows and in every other case where supermarkets and 1107 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1108 other suppliers have found adulterated meat products, Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right their suppliers have been named. How is the public to be proud of the quality of Scottish products, as we sector supposed to check? are, because of the high quality of the raw materials, I want to move on to a letter from John Young, a their traceability and the thoroughness of our production former manager at the Meat Hygiene Service, who sent systems. That is why this case must be sorted out. We this letter from High Peak Meat Exports to DEFRA in cannot allow a small number of criminals to do huge April 2011. It warned the Government that bute- damage to a key industry. We are discussing the issue of contaminated horsemeat could illegally enter the human other types of adulteration with the FSA. That is food chain because of failures with the horse passport particularly important to some minorities, so we will be system, which I have raised in the House before. On looking to test for pork adulteration. 17 February the Secretary of State ordered an urgent investigation into those claims. What has that investigation Gregg McClymont: The hon. Member for Thirsk and found, and has he discovered why his Government Malton (Miss McIntosh), who chairs the Select Committee, colleagues ignored that warning? has been clear that the Government were caught flat-footed by the horsemeat scandal. In that case, how would the Secretary of State describe the Scottish Government’s Mr Paterson: To clarify the previous answer, Sodexo response, given that they picked up the phone nearly a made it clear to all its customers which products there week after Asda began clearing its shelves? was a problem with. It has withdrawn them all but in the case of an investigation which might grow criminal, Mr Paterson: I am not responsible for the Scottish it would not be sensible to reveal names of suppliers. Government. All I will say is that I would like to thank This is a criminal conspiracy which covers 23 different the Scottish Minister and the Welsh Minister for their countries, and it does not help the police to arrive at steadfast support. They came down to the last big prosecutions if information is revealed. meeting I held with industry leaders, and we were all On horse passports, we are clear that we have fixed completely united on the need to sort out this criminal the problem of bute getting into the food chain. No conspiracy in order to clear the name of British food carcases will get into the food chain until they have making. We want to get exporting and pushing on to tested negative for bute. That is absolutely clear, and we expand the industry. We will not have it held back by are clear that the horse passport regime which we criminal activity. inherited from the hon. Lady’s party needs reforming, and we will do that in due course. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Cross- contamination by horsemeat in every part of the United Mr Speaker: We are much obliged to the Secretary of Kingdom could be stopped if we prevented the killing State. of horses in multi-species abattoirs. Does the Secretary of State not agree that the trade in horsemeat is fairly revolting and that Britain would be a better place if we Food Adulteration had none of it at all? Let us kill the horsemeat trade altogether and we will not have to worry about 7. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) contamination. (Lab/Co-op): What recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the devolved Administrations on the Mr Paterson: A small number of horses—about 9,000— adulteration of food in the UK. [146582] are slaughtered every year in this country. I am not sure that abattoirs would be viable if they concentrated only 9. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and on one species, but it is an idea that I would like to Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): What recent discussions he discuss with my hon. Friend and perhaps take further. has had with Ministers in the Scottish Government on Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): Has the adulteration of food. [146584] my right hon. Friend discussed with his Welsh and Scottish counterparts the fact that many of our constituents The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural find this issue very distasteful, not only because of the Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): I have been in regular thought of eating horsemeat but because of the certain contact with Ministers in the devolved Administrations knowledge that horses will be transported and slaughtered to discuss the issue. Ministers from Scotland and Wales in appalling circumstances by shadowy people in those attended my meeting with the food industry on 18 February, 23 countries? where we made it clear that the adulteration of food is unacceptable and that consumers have to be the top Mr Paterson: I have discussed the issue with priority. I most recently met Ministers in all the devolved Commissioner Borg and other Ministers, because there Administrations at a pre-Agriculture Council meeting is a significant trade in horses across the continent of in Brussels on 25 February and the Welsh Minister Europe. My hon. Friend and his constituents are absolutely briefly on Monday. I am grateful for their support. right: if they buy a product that is sold as processed beef, regardless of price, it should be processed beef. Mark Lazarowicz: Scotland has a high-quality food Any adulteration with any other material is a conspiracy industry and it is important that its reputation is maintained. to defraud the public, and we are determined to get to What steps is the Minister taking, along with the devolved the bottom of it. Administrations, to look at the prevention of adulteration in areas other than those that we have seen so far? 15. [146591] Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) Clearly, we cannot predict criminality but we should (Lab): The export of Scotch beef and Scotch beef-based make sure that we act proactively as far as possible. food products is vital for the manufacturing base in the 1109 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1110
Scottish economy. What discussions is the Secretary of Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend has a great many State having with the Scottish Government to ensure constituents who live in flood risk, and we want to be that producers and consumers can have confidence in able to assure them that there is something that will the products they buy? continue after the end of the statement of principles. As I said to the hon. Member for Nottingham South Mr Paterson: My hon. Friend the Minister of State (Lilian Greenwood), the new system is better because it attended the 100th anniversary celebrations of the National will not only be available to all properties that are at Farmers Union of Scotland, and I have discussed the flood risk but will have an affordability element. We matter with Minster Lochhead. We both agree that we have in mind my hon. Friend’s constituents and many have a job to do, working closely with the industry, to others around the country who live in flood risk, but we promote strict traceability and production systems. I are also responsible to the taxpayer. We want to make was interested to note that at the NFU conference last sure that what we are doing is fair to the taxpayer and week in Birmingham that people really had their tails fair to the person living in flood risk. up because there is now an opportunity, with the public being so interested in the supply chain, to stress how Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The Building good our industry is and how reliable our products are. Societies Association has said that the consequences of failing to get a deal would be “grave”. Potential buyers Flood Insurance would find it difficult or impossible to get a mortgage, loan book values would drop, capital requirements would rise, and there would be less money to lend in the 8. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): real economy. Is sales blight on 200,000 properties an What recent discussions he has had on flood insurance. acceptable price to pay for this Government’s inaction? [146583] Richard Benyon: The hon. Gentleman is wrong when TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, he says that there is inaction; I can assure him that there Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): The availability is an awful lot of action. Alongside the negotiations and affordability of insurance in flood-risk areas are that have been going on, we have been producing documents importantissuesfortheGovernment.Constructivenegotiations such as one that has been highly recommended by the continue with the insurance industry, at the highest British Institute of Insurance Brokers Association: levels of Government, on a range of approaches that “Obtaining flood insurance in high risk areas”. We are could succeed the current statement of principles. The also assisting people in flood-risk measures they take Government are on course to spend £2.3 billion on for their property at household level so that that will be reducing the risk from flooding and coastal erosion and reflected in the premium. The hon. Gentleman is right delivering better protection to 165,000 households over to be concerned about the potential impact on mortgages the four years to March 2015. and lenders, and that is one of the main drivers towards the quick result we want to get in this matter. Lilian Greenwood: On 24 January I asked the Minister how much premiums will rise if he fails to reach agreement Mr Speaker: I am deeply obliged to the Minister, but with the insurance industry. In response, he assured me there are a couple of people called Smith whom I still that negotiations were at an advanced stage and that he want to accommodate. I call Sir Robert. would come to the House with details shortly.I understand that he does not actually have a seat at the negotiating Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) table, but when does he expect to have news of a deal (LD): Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I reinforce to the from his Cabinet Office and Treasury colleagues? Minister the importance of achieving affordability? Will he take the message from the people of Stonehaven, Richard Benyon: I think that there is a misconception who have been flooded for a second time, that urgency in some parts of the House that the statement of is also important so that they can have the comfort of principles represents some halcyon world in which our reinsuring their properties? constituents living in high flood-risk areas are protected from exorbitant rises in premiums. That is not the case. Richard Benyon: I entirely accept what my hon. Friend What we want is affordability to be brought into the says. There is an urgent need to get a resolution, but I new system. I am involved in those conversations at the hope that he agrees—I am sure he does—that it cannot highest levels and want to assure the House that we are be at any price; we have to be mindful of the needs of working as hard as we can to find a solution that can the taxpayer as well as those of his constituents. This is give comfort to everyone who is at risk of flooding, a fiscal matter and therefore a UK responsibility, so it is particularly those on low incomes. important that we liaise closely with the devolved Governments as well. 17. [146593] Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): My constituents in West Worcestershire, which Mr Speaker: From Smith on floods to Smith on fish. is quite flood-prone, are concerned about the length of I call Mr Henry Smith. the negotiations. I understand that the Association of British Insurers is asking for the taxpayer, in effect, to Fish Discards be the reinsurer of last resort. How confident is the Minister that we will be able to come up with a private sector-led solution in time for the expiration of the 10. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What progress he statement of principles? has made on securing a ban on fish discards. [146585] 1111 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1112
TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, which is 1% on the cost of the average shopping basket. Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): At last month’s We are clear that we want the quota regime to go. I EU Fisheries Council I secured agreement to a reformed promise the right hon. Gentleman that, at every opportunity common fisheries policy which includes a ban on discards. when this issue is raised, I remember the need to defend Alongside firm deadlines and the practical means to the interests of cane importers and to make sure that deliver a ban, this moves us much closer to eliminating the duty regime is fair to them. the terrible waste caused by discarding. Discussions with the European Parliament will now begin in order to T3. [146597] John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Will Ministers agree the final common fisheries policy reform package update us on where we are with dangerous dogs legislation, later this year. given the continued prevalence of attacks and, indeed, organised dog fighting? Henry Smith: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the tenacity of his negotiating skills in Brussels, because The Minister of State, Department for Environment, some of the options that were being proposed would Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): My hon. have been disastrous for British fishermen. May I seek Friend will be aware of my right hon. Friend the Secretary assurances that in the further negotiations he will champion of State’s recent announcement that we intend to proceed British fishermen and the welfare of British waters? with changes to dangerous dog legislation by bringing in new antisocial behaviour provisions. We are talking Richard Benyon: I thank my hon. Friend. Our fishermen to the Home Office about that and we intend to bring have led the way in reducing discards through innovative them in at the earliest opportunity. schemes such as the catch quota scheme and Project 50%. There has been good work by my Department on T2. [146596] Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): supply chains and other measures that will need to be What can the Minister say to reassure my constituents brought in to ensure that a discard ban works. My hon. in Sunderland that when they buy a product, whether it Friend is right that we managed to see off some changes is beef, lamb or even horse, they are getting what they that would have dramatically watered down any discard have paid for and what they have been promised? ban. I am really pleased that we are now on track to achieving what the vast majority of our constituents Mr Heath: I think that we have made it abundantly want. clear that that is exactly what needs to happen. Retailers and people in the catering industry have a clear responsibility Topical Questions and we are determined to do everything we can to make sure that that is the case, which is exactly what has been T1. [146595] Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): If he happening over the past few weeks. will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. T4. [146598] Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Do The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Ministers consider it acceptable that a number of historic Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): The priorities of the English churches are being made unusable as a consequence Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs of bat faeces and that mediaeval wall paintings and are to grow the rural economy, improve the environment other historic monuments are being irretrievably damaged and safeguard animal and plant health. As well as as a consequence of bat urine? Churches are not farm handling issues such as the adulteration of processed barns. They are places of worship and should be respected beef products, we continue to seek to put farming on a as such. sustainable footing for the future. This includes working towards a common agricultural policy settlement that TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, will enable farmers to respond to the needs of the Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): I entirely market, while delivering valuable environmental benefits agree with my hon. Friend and share his intense frustration. and boosting potential for exports. As I outlined at last I am glad to say that we are moving forward with one week’s National Farmers Union conference, both of church in Yorkshire, where we think we may have found these things will enable farmers to capitalise on the a resolution, and some churches in Norfolk. It cannot growing domestic and global demand for high quality have ever been the intention of those who imposed this UK produce. At every opportunity we will champion directive on us to limit the ability of people to worship our farmers and their rigorous standards of production in a church that has been there for centuries. and traceability. T5. [146599] Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Stephen Timms: In a series of decisions, the European Last week the Secretary of State said that he was keen Commission has unbalanced the previous level playing to delay European Union proposals to protect essential field in the European sugar market between beet processors pollinators from neonicotinoids until new British field and cane refiners. As a result, we have very high prices data were available. At the very same time, his own chief for sugar, super profits for beet processors and a threat scientist was telling members of the Environmental to the viability of cane refining in Europe. Will the Audit Committee that those same trials had been deeply Minister make sure that the forthcoming changes to the compromised. When will the Secretary of State stop CAP get us back to a level playing field? prevaricating and implement a moratorium on the use of neonicotinoids without further delay? Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question. He is absolutely correct. At present, Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for the quota regime is due to end in 2015 and he is right making the position clear. There have been a number of that sugar prices are 35% higher than world prices, reports based on laboratory data. I have raised the issue 1113 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1114 with Minister Coveney, who has the presidency of the Mr Paterson: As my hon. Friend knows, the CAP European Union, and had a meeting with Commissioner negotiations are getting particularly intense at the moment. Borg about it only last week. We have asked them to I have taken her comments on board and will bear them wait until the data from our field trials have been in mind as we draw nearer a conclusion. analysed. We are fully aware of the strength of feeling that the hon. Lady represents, but there are also people Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I who believe that these materials are not damaging. very much welcome the progress being made towards What is absolutely critical is that we do the right thing ending the scandal of fish discards, but is the Minister for bees, because they play such a fundamental role. aware of the dramatic recent falls in fish prices and does There is no point in removing one product if it does not he share my concern that certain sections of the media actually hurt bees. What we really need to do is look at are representing our sustainable fishing industry in a how we can promote bee health, because it is so important grossly irresponsible way? to all plant life. Richard Benyon: My time in post has shown me that T7. [146601] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Is my large areas of the media have no interest in understanding hon. Friend aware that yesterday was an important day the complexities of marine management, so I share the in the political calendar, as it was national salad day, hon. Lady’s concern. I can assure her that I am very and that, in my constituency of Harlow and the surrounding concerned, particularly about the drop in the cod price, villages of Roydon and Nazeing, we have the highest which I know will affect livelihoods in her constituency. concentration of cucumber and pepper growers across We want a fair price for a sustainably harvested product, the United Kingdom? Will the Government place more and everything that my Department is trying to do, weight on food production in the planning system to with the devolved Governments, is working towards that. help the Lee valley growers and glasshouse industry in my constituency? T9. [146603] Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): I represent one of just three constituencies named after a river, so Mr Heath: It certainly was an important day, because my question concerns our waterways. What support are I had the opportunity to meet growers and discuss the Government giving to groups such as the Erewash exactly that issue. There clearly needs to be proper Canal Preservation and Development Association in accommodation for growing food stuffs in this country my constituency, which, along with an army of through the planning system, but it is equally right—the volunteers, does a huge amount to help preserve our Government are clear on this—that local planning decisions historic waterways? need to be taken locally. Central Government have continually to remind our colleagues in local government, Richard Benyon: I pay great tribute to that association, however, that having sustainable food production in this which does such great work. Last year, we achieved country is a top priority. We have an increasing population something very rare in this House. With all-party agreement, to feed, and we must ensure that we can do so in a we secured the transfer of a Government body to sustainable way. a charity that has been well-funded for a considerable number of years, giving the opportunity for such T6. [146600] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) organisations to benefit. The number of volunteer days (Lab): Even if the Treasury allows the Minister to around the country has rocketed as a result of the new resolve the general stand-off with the insurance industry charity. over the statement of principles, will not the coalition’s flood defence cuts and the partnership funding plan Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): Following mean that deprived areas such as mine in Hull will not DEFRA press releases on the food adulteration issue, be able to get the investment into the area to allow the one of my constituents wrote to ask if she was the only insurance industry to provide insurance to my constituents? one who had a problem with the fact that even 1% of products might not be what they claim to be on the Richard Benyon: I suggest that the hon. Lady looks at label. As she pointed out, that means that of 5,000 the facts of the schemes that we have just brought products 50 will be adulterated, and that if those 50 are forward. These are schemes in many cities that have popular lines, millions of people are being duped. Will constantly failed to get above the line, but which, owing the Minister please do something about the self-satisfied to partnership funding and extra Treasury funding, are tone of DEFRA press releases? now going ahead—in Leeds, Exeter, Ipswich and many others places. I understand the great concern in Hull, as Mr Heath: I am not sure about a self-satisfied tone, it has suffered from flooding in the past, and I can but the Food Standards Agency is discussing exactly assure her that it will remain a Government priority to that issue with consumers at the moment. There is a build flood protection. clear difference between very trace contamination and deliberate adulteration. We all understand that. The T8. [146602] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) question is where the dividing line is and what is acceptable. (Con): May I congratulate the Secretary of State on the It is quite right that the FSA should talk to real people progress being made on reform of the common agricultural about that and see what they think. policy? He must be aware of the particular difficulties of tenant farmers who are graziers on common land in T10. [146604] Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) north Yorkshire. Will he ensure that Natural England (Con): It was a tough year for farmers in west and the Department fully understand that tenants who Worcestershire last year, so can the Minister cheer them are active farmers must benefit from the funds after up by telling them how well the Rural Payments CAP reform? Agency performed this year? 1115 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1116
Mr Heath: I would be delighted to do that, but I am ethnic minority eligible voters and white eligible voters not sure that even the performance of the RPA will be is about 10%. Therefore, should the Electoral Commission enough entirely to cheer up farmers who are wrestling not work with electoral registration officers in areas with the weather. In the written statement that I made with large ethnic minority communities to look at new to the House earlier, I confirmed that by 19 February methods and resources that could ensure that individual 2013, the RPA had paid out a total of £1.6 billion to registration works for all of us? more than 102,000 farmers, which is 98.4% of customers. That exceeds the performance target for March and meets Mr Streeter: The hon. Lady raises an important the EU benchmark some four months early. Farmer point. The Electoral Commission is working with electoral satisfaction levels are the highest ever recorded, and the registration officers, particularly in areas where there RPA has just delivered the most successful payment are hard-to-reach groups. However, electoral registration record in its history. That is an extremely good job. officers should rely on their own local experience and expertise to get the job done. It might help the hon. Mr Speaker: We are all now better informed. Lady to know that data matching is expected to ensure that 70% of people across the country will transfer Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The common automatically to the new register. As I have said before, fisheries policy was described recently by a continental anyone who is on the register in 2014 will be transferred EU politician as a “disaster”, so those of us in the UK automatically to the May 2015 register. who take that view are not alone. Is it not the case that monitoring fishing in EU waters, including discards, cannot be effective until those waters are returned to the historic boundaries of member states? CHURCH COMMISSIONERS Richard Benyon: I share the view that the common fisheries policy has been a disaster: it has been a disaster The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church for fish stocks, fishermen, coastal communities and the Commissioners, was asked— health of our seas. Working within the world in which we have to operate and playing the hand that we have King Richard III (Reburial) been dealt, I hope that we are getting good, meaningful reform. We will be delivering much of the regionalisation that the hon. Gentleman wants through the reform of 2. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): If he will meet the policy. representatives from York and Leicester, including the deans of the cathedrals and hon. Members from both cities to discuss arrangements for the reburial of King Richard III. [146566] ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing Baldry): The legal position is clear. The Ministry of the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, Justice has granted a licence to the university of Leicester, was asked— which means that it is responsible for keeping the remains of King Richard III and for their reburial. It is intended Individual Voter Registration that they will be reburied in Leicester cathedral.
1. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): What support Hugh Bayley: In October, when we last discussed this the Electoral Commission is offering to parliamentary matter, which was before it had been established that constituencies with a high proportion of ethnic the remains were those of King Richard, the hon. minority voters to assist with individual registration. Gentleman said: [146565] “Once those tests are concluded, the nature, place and marking of any reinterment will need seriously to be considered.”—[Official Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): The Electoral Report, 25 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 1070.] Commission will provide guidance and support to electoral I said at the time that those were wise words and that it registration officers on how best to ensure that people would be wrong to bicker in this Chamber about the are registered under the new system. The guidance will burial place. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the advise on how best to reach those who are least likely to matter should now be considered by experts, taking be registered or to respond to the change, including account of the wishes that King Richard expressed certain black and minority ethnic groups. Electoral during his life and the views of clergy who do not have a registration officers should use their knowledge of the vested interest, people from York and Leicester and all local community to ensure that they do that as effectively other interested parties, so that a decision can be made? as possible. The Electoral Commission will also run a public awareness campaign targeted at those groups Mr Speaker: I think that the hon. Gentleman needs during the transition. an Adjournment debate so that he can develop his thoughts fully. He cannot speak to Richard III about it, Fiona Mactaggart: I think that we need more than I am afraid, but he may be able to address the House. that. The data-matching pilots, the evaluation of which was published in December, revealed that in Tower Sir Tony Baldry: The hon. Gentleman has an Hamlets, data matching connected with only 55% of Adjournment debate on this issue on Tuesday, and I voters, whereas in Wigan the figure was over 80%. We suggest that he put those issues to Ministry of Justice know that the mismatch between the registration of Ministers then. As for the Church, we believe that in a 1117 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1118 situation such as this the remains should be reburied in It has recommended that the Government should improve the nearest possible church, which, as it happens, is public awareness and participation by providing for Leicester cathedral. “either a candidates’ mailing or the delivery of a booklet…about the…elections and about the candidates to all households.” Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): My Is that an issue that has been considered by the Electoral constituents have been raising with me questions about Commission? the legality of what is happening at the moment about this, and although I am sympathetic to the case put by Mr Streeter: It most certainly is considered. I do not my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh want to prejudge the report, which will be published Bayley), I would like to press the case for burying later this month, but it is well known that the Electoral Richard III in Barnard Castle, where he lived happily Commission advised the Government in advance of its for many years and where his insignia, the white boar, concerns about the lack of information about candidates can still be seen engraved in the castle. going to voters. I very much hope that before the next police and crime commissioner elections, which are due Sir Tony Baldry: I suggest that the hon. Lady seeks to in 2016, significant lessons will have been learned. intervene in the hon. Gentleman’s Adjournment debate with Ministry of Justice Ministers on Tuesday. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): One lesson I have learned is that if senior Members of this House, Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Unfortunately, such as the shadow Home Secretary, are appearing on Richard III did not have much time to plan his funeral. television screens before an election telling everyone I do not think he would have been very worried about that the election is a waste of time and money, we can where he was buried, but he did live and die a Catholic, hardly be surprised if the electors are not all that and so at his funeral could there not be some aspect of interested. Does my hon. Friend agree that if Members Catholicism to represent his life’s work? of this House are not prepared to stand up to champion democracy, we cannot be surprised if members of the Sir Tony Baldry: Every Sunday, I say, “I believe in one public are not flocking to the polling stations? holy Catholic Church.” The more serious point is that whatever service takes place at Leicester cathedral, I am Mr Streeter: I am delighted to say that the Electoral sure that the Dean of Leicester will want to involve Commission is not responsible for any comments made representatives of the local Roman Catholic Church. by the shadow Home Secretary or any other Member of Indeed, one wants to try to ensure that an event such as this House. the respectful reburial of an English king is carried out in a way that does not cause controversy and that is respectful and accords with the wishes of the whole community. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION
The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission was ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE asked— National Audit Office The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, 5. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): was asked— What assessments he has received from independent sources of the quality of the work carried out by the Police and Crime Commissioner Elections National Audit Office. [146569]
4. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): What Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough): A number of external assessment the Electoral Commission has made of the reviews are in place to provide independent assessments effectiveness of its public awareness campaign for the of the quality of the National Audit Office’s work: the police and crime commissioner elections. [146568] NAO’s financial audit work is subject to independent review by the audit quality review team of the Financial Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): The Electoral Reporting Council; the quality of the NAO’s value-for- Commission commissioned an independent research money reports is independently reviewed by independent study to assess the effectiveness of its public awareness experts from Oxford university’s Said business school campaign. The results show a significant increase in and Risk Solutions; and the NAO’s external auditors awareness of the main elements of the campaign, including conduct an annual value-for-money assessment, which the date of the election and how to vote. The Electoral is reported to the Public Accounts Commission. Commission will publish its statutory report later this month on the police and crime commissioner elections, Mr Sheerman: I am most grateful for that reply. All which will identify what wider lessons need to be learned. Members would normally agree that the National Audit Office does a very good job. Like the hon. Gentleman, I Meg Munn: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that was once a member of the Public Accounts Committee. answer. The Association of Electoral Administrators, Did he see the vicious attack on the Chair of that in a highly critical report, has said: Committee by the Justice Secretary just a few days ago, “Voters were not at the heart of the process for the Police and alleging that she was biased, unprincipled and should Crime Commissioner Elections”. not chair that Committee? Is that right? 1119 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1120
Mr Leigh: I do not think it is for me as Chair of the Mr Hollobone: Kettering is the nightclub capital of Public Accounts Commission to try to second-guess north Northamptonshire. Into that fray, every Saturday vigorous debate. In my humble opinion, the PAC under night and Sunday morning, between the hours of 11 pm its present Chair and with its present members does an and 3 am, the Kettering street pastors, led by their excellent job in holding the Executive to account, and I inspirational co-ordinator, Fiona de Boltz, send out six am sure on all occasions it would avoid party politics. to 10 volunteers to offer faith-based reassurance, comfort and guidance, as well as practical assistance to vulnerable Mr Speaker: I dare say the right hon. Member concerned young people. Will my hon. Friend agree to visit Kettering will bear stoically and with fortitude whatever arrows to see the good work they do? have been pointed in her direction. Sir Tony Baldry: It goes without saying that I would be extremely happy to go with my hon. Friend one Saturday night and see the work of the Kettering street CHURCH COMMISSIONERS pastors. Street pastors across the country do invaluable work in helping, caring and listening, and making our The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church streets safer at nights and weekends. Commissioners, was asked— Mr Speaker: We have heard from Mr Hollobone so we have got to hear from Mr Bone. Archbishop of Canterbury Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is an 6. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) outrageous slur from my hon. Friend the Member for (LD): What discussions the Church Commissioners Kettering (Mr Hollobone) to say that Kettering is the have had with the Archbishop of Canterbury on his nightclub capital of north Northamptonshire when priorities during the early stages of his ministry. [146570] everybody knows it is Wellingborough and Rushden. Street pastors in my area do a tremendous job, in The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony particular the Full Gospel church in Rushden, which Baldry): I am sure the House will wish Archbishop has led the way with a homeless shelter. Does my hon. Justin well as he starts out on his public ministry to the Friend the Second Church Estates Commissioner agree? nation. Early indications as to his priorities can be seen in a number of ways such as the appointment of new Sir Tony Baldry: On my way to Kettering, I promise staff at Lambeth, the first ever woman chaplain to an and undertake to call on my hon. Friend’s constituency Archbishop of Canterbury and a director of reconciliation. and witness the work of the street pastors there as well. Other priorities clearly include his concerns for public spiritual renewal, peace building and reconciliation, as Mr Speaker: Gosh, the mind really is boggling. well as tackling economic depravation and support for Charitable Work marginalised communities. 8. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What assessment Simon Hughes: I join the hon. Gentleman in wishing the Church Commissioners have made of the steps the new archbishop very well indeed. Have any discussions taken by the Government to support the role of led us to understand that under his new tenure of office churches and faith groups in their charitable work since the Church will continue to speak out for the poor, the May 2010. [146572] marginalised, the deprived and minorities, which the gospel made the clear and principal mission of the Church? Sir Tony Baldry: The charitable and voluntary work of the Church at local and national levels is so diverse Sir Tony Baldry: I am sure that Archbishop Justin and varied that it is difficult to generalise about the will remember the words of Archbishop Temple who impact of recent Government policy on it. One positive observed that the Church of England is an organisation development has been funding from the Department that exists for people other than for itself. Given the for Communities and Local Government for the Near work done by Archbishop Justin when he was Bishop of Neighbours programme. That is managed by the Church Durham on credit unions and food banks, and his of England through the Church Urban Fund and does concern about issues such as payday loans, I have no much to promote understanding between people of doubt that he will be at the forefront of pursuing different faith communities in different parts of the concerns about economic depravation and supporting country. marginalised communities. Robert Halfon: Will my hon. Friend use his good Kettering Street Pastors offices to lobby the Government to review the public benefit test in terms of its application by the Charity 7. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What Commission to religious groups, so that we may avoid assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the situation ever again in which the Christian Brethren the work of the Kettering street pastors. [146571] are discriminated against but pagan religions are given charitable status? Sir Tony Baldry: The Church of England provides national financial support to a number of street pastor Sir Tony Baldry: The previous Parliament decided groups around the country through the church and that there should be a public benefit test for religious community funds. As many Members will know, the groups. If it is felt that the Charity Commission is street pastors initiative is an independent and ecumenical applying the public benefit test incorrectly, I suspect initiative with some 200 groups across the country. that that is a matter for judicial review. 1121 Oral Answers7 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 1122
Pilgrimage of Prayer (Canterbury) Sir Tony Baldry: As I am sure the hon. Lady is aware, there have been several developments since I last updated 9. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): What the House. The initial facilitator discussions have been reports the Church Commissioners have received of the completed and the consultation stage on a new document Archbishop of Canterbury’s plan for a pilgrimage of has just closed. The working group met earlier this week prayer around the province of Canterbury. [146573] to consider 376 submissions and will meet again later this month. The intention, as I have mentioned to the Sir Tony Baldry: Prior to the formal commencement House on occasions too numerous to particularise, is of his public ministry and enthronement in Canterbury to have the House of Bishops give consideration to cathedral on 21 March, Archbishop Justin intends to the results from the working party when it next meets tour parts of the province of Canterbury to meet its in May. people and visit its diverse communities. From 14 March to 19 March, he will visit five cities and six cathedrals. Everyone is welcome to join in the journey of prayer at Diana Johnson: “Women in the episcopate: a new way any point during the pilgrimage. forward” could have been written by Sir Humphrey Appleby. It shows little urgency and, with both sides Mr Nuttall: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. further apart, even less prospect of progress in July. Is it May I urge him to encourage the new Archbishop to not time that the House took a stand and supported my include the deanery of Bury in his pilgrimage and, in ten-minute rule Bill next Wednesday on allowing women particular, St Anne’s parish church, where I have the bishops? honour of serving as church warden?
Sir Tony Baldry: The Archbishop of Canterbury is Sir Tony Baldry: There are two serious points there. visiting cities in the province of Canterbury and my First, I promise the hon. Lady that the Church of hon. Friend’s constituency is of course in the province England is moving as fast as humanly possible on this, of York. I have no doubt that in due course the Archbishop and I can assure her that everyone from Archbishop of Canterbury will visit the province of York and I will Justin to every member of General Synod wishes to draw to his attention my hon. Friend’s request. have this matter resolved as speedily as possible. Secondly, the House needs to be cautious about wanting to go Women Bishops back to the position prior to 1919, when matters of doctrine and worship of the Church of England were 10. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): settled by Parliament. In 1919, Parliament decided that What assessment the Church Commissioners have those were matters for the Church Assembly—now the made of the proposals contained in the General Synod General Synod—and I am not sure that Parliament document “Women in the episcopate: a new way would wish to go back to that pre-1919 position without forward”. [146574] giving it some serious thought. 1123 7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1124
Business of the House I think I have finally managed to discover something reliable about the Government: the regularity of their U-turns. On 14 February, I observed that with this 10.37 am Government we have a U-turn every 29 days. Following Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of the Education Secretary’s embarrassing climbdown on the House give us the business for next week? GCSEs, I predicted that the next one was due to arrive on 8 March—a non-sitting Friday. The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley): The business for next week is as follows: Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. MONDAY 11 MARCH—Second Reading of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must resume her TUESDAY 12 MARCH—Opposition day (19th allotted seat. We cannot have points of order in the middle of day). There will be a debate on tax fairness, followed by business questions. There will be an opportunity for a debate on apprenticeships. points of order in due course and there are plenty of Both debates will arise on an Opposition motion. opportunities to contribute, but not in the middle WEDNESDAY 13 MARCH—Remaining stages of the Crime of business questions. and Courts Bill [Lords] (day 1). THURSDAY 14 MARCH—Launch of a report from the Ms Eagle: As I said, I predicted that the next U-turn Justice Select Committee on youth justice, followed by was due on 8 March—a non-sitting Friday. Therefore, debate on a motion relating to accountability and may I thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting my request transparency in the NHS. The subject for this debate that this U-turn be brought forward to a sitting day by was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. agreeing to Labour’s urgent question on the NHS The provisional business for the following week will competition regulations, which the Government withdrew include: ignominiously on Tuesday? It may have arrived like clockwork, but that U-turn took a quarter of a million MONDAY 18 MARCH—Conclusion of remaining stages names on a petition, thousands of doctors protesting of the Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]. and outrage across the House before the Government TUESDAY 19 MARCH—Proceedings on a Bill. saw sense and realised that the British public will not WEDNESDAY 20 MARCH—My right hon. Friend the tolerate our NHS being privatised. Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget The Leader of the House may recall that he told me statement. last week that I was “not right” to say that the NHS THURSDAY 21 MARCH—Continuation of the Budget competition regulations were a direct contradiction to debate. the reassurances he gave during the passage of the FRIDAY 22 MARCH—Continuation of the Budget debate. Health and Social Care Act 2012. Yet only yesterday, the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee I should also like to inform the House that the reported that the regulations are defective for precisely business in Westminster Hall for Thursday 14 March that reason. Will he now concede that he was wrong? will be: Will he tell me when we can expect to see a new version THURSDAY 14 MARCH—Debate on the Foreign Affairs of the regulations, and can we have them published in Committee report on the FCO’s human rights work in draft first, to avoid even more chaos? I am setting my 2011, followed by general debate relating to Commonwealth clock for the next 29 days, but I make a plea to the day. Government: if I can predict their U-turns, then surely The House will also be aware that this morning I so can they. Could they, perhaps, just think through made a written statement announcing that Her Majesty their policies a bit more before they announce them? the Queen will open a new Session of this Parliament Last week, I asked the Leader of the House to ensure on Wednesday 8 May 2013. that the Commons Committee stage of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill will not be completed Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for before the Parliamentary Commission on Banking announcing next week’s business and the date of the Standards has even published its second report. This Queen’s Speech. week, we learned that the Government intend to railroad Tomorrow is international women’s day. To celebrate, the Bill through the Commons Committee stage by the Government propose to remove the Equality and 18 April, well before the second report is expected to be Human Rights Commission’s general equality duty from published. How can the Leader of the House seriously the statute book, having already slashed 70% of its expect MPs to scrutinise a Bill that is still only half-written? funding. The Government have undermined the EHRC Will he stand up for the rights of this House and delay to such an extent that the United Nations has warned the Committee stage until after the Banking Commission that it may lose its current A-list status as an independent has reported? body. It was therefore fitting that on Monday the other I am glad to see that our downgraded Chancellor has place blocked that attack on the commission’s powers got his priorities right: he spent the week in Europe to progress fairness. No wonder that the hon. Member defending bankers’ bonuses. He gathered his allies around for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) suggested in The Sun him ready for the fight and ended up in a minority of on Tuesday that her own Front Bench needed equality one. No one seems to respect the Chancellor anymore. training. Will the Leader of the House confirm when Yesterday, the Business Secretary made a pre-emptive we will see the amended Enterprise and Regulatory strike on the Prime Minister’s big economy speech by Reform Bill back in this place? agreeing with the Opposition that we need a plan B, and 1125 Business of the House7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1126
[Ms Angela Eagle] but we are enabling patients to be more confident that they will get integrated services responding to their the Governor of the Bank of England has accused the needs with clinical leadership. That seems absolutely Chancellor of holding back the economy by not splitting fine to me. up RBS. Most damningly, however, he has lost the The hon. Lady asked about bankers’ bonuses and all respect of the British public, who see him ignoring the that. We have to be clear about this. The Opposition suffering of hard-working families, while he signs off might not think it is important now, but in the past the six-figure tax cuts to 30,000 millionaires. Will the Leader Labour Government used to rely almost entirely on the of the House ask the Chancellor to start listening? proceeds of financial services in the City to fund all While the Chancellor is acting as a shop steward for their expenditure. Now the Opposition seem to have the rich, another union is growing in strength: the ignored the fact that, notwithstanding that, we need a national union of Ministers, united in their determination competitive financial services industry in this country. to dump further cuts to their Departments somewhere Labour seems to have ignored the fact that it did else. The Defence Secretary seems to have emerged as nothing about bankers’ bonuses, which were four times the new Arthur Scargill; and, from reports of the slap-down as great under the last Government than they are under of the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge this Government. The Opposition seem to have ignored (Mr Hammond), the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is the fact that what the European Parliament is proposing emerging as the new Margaret Thatcher. Could the could have perverse results, leading to higher salaries Leader of the House tell us whether the union is confident rather than bonuses, adding to companies’ fixed costs enough in its numbers to win a strike ballot? No wonder and reducing both their capacity to claw back bonuses the Prime Minister has arranged to take a 28-day comfort if there is poor performance and the flexibility that break before he has to answer questions in the aftermath brings. This is not a debate in principle about whether of the Budget statement. bankers should have bonuses or about the level—we are dealing with that. The issue is whether they are structured in a way that allows poor performance to be penalised Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her without adding to the problems of the industry’s response to the business statement. competitiveness in Europe. I share the hon. Lady’s wish to mark international The hon. Lady talked about U-turns. On a day when women’s day tomorrow. In that respect, I hope it is the Labour party is trying to contrive some kind of helpful that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State U-turn on its immigration policy, that was a bit of an for International Development will make an important own goal. I have not heard the shadow Leader of the statement immediately following business questions. I House get up and apologise for the fact that the last am sure the hon. Lady and the House will also welcome Government simply lost control and ended up with a this morning’s written ministerial statement by the Home net migration figure of 250,000 a year. The coalition Secretary informing the House that the violence against Government set themselves the task of bringing that women and girls action plan will be published tomorrow, net number down from hundreds of thousands to tens on international women’s day. That will enable us to of thousands, and the figures published last week underpin further the strategy we set out two and a half demonstrate that net migration has fallen by a third in years ago, showing the progress we have made and the past two and a half years. That shows that, in this demonstrating our ongoing commitment to ending violence respect as in so many others, the coalition Government against women and girls, which was also marked by the are delivering on their promises. debates agreed by the Backbench Business Committee in the Chamber recently. Several hon. Members rose— The shadow Leader of the House asked when the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill would return Mr Speaker: Order. As usual, dozens of colleagues here from another place. That depends on when those are seeking to catch my eye. I remind the House that in another place finish their consideration. To my knowledge there is a statement to follow from the Secretary of they have not yet done so, but we will see that in due State for International Development, and then important course. proceedings on the Justice and Security Bill, so we are I do not believe that the competition regulations as time-constrained. I must therefore exhort colleagues originally presented to this House were in any sense in from the Back and Front Benches alike to speak pithily, conflict with the commitments given by Ministers. What beginning with Dr Thérèse Coffey. is clear, however, is that those regulations are capable of being misunderstood and misrepresented—particularly Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): The A14 the latter by the Opposition. In that respect, it is simpler links my constituency with that of my right hon. Friend and better to illustrate clearly two simple facts in the the Leader of the House. Will he allow a debate in regulations. First, clinical commissioning groups have a Government time on road tolling, in that area but also duty, which overrides all other considerations, to secure more widely? the needs of their patients and the quality of services to their patients and to make choice available to them. Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend and I share a close interest Secondly, contrary to the situation under the last in this matter, and I declare a constituency interest. I Government, in their “Principles and rules for co-operation will of course talk to my right hon. Friend at the and competition”, procurement should be conducted Department for Transport. I cannot promise a debate with a view to securing integrated services for patients. immediately, but I know that the Government will take To that extent, what we are doing is based on the the opportunity to discuss this matter with the House principles set out in early 2010 under the last Government, ere long. 1127 Business of the House7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1128
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): May we have an Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): May we urgent debate, or at least a statement, on the marine please have an urgent debate on the plight of Shaker conservation zones? Given that £8.8 million of taxpayers’ Aamer, who remains the last British resident incarcerated money has been spent on consultation, and 127 such in Guantanamo Bay? He is still there after 11 years. We zones have been proposed, could the Leader of the have heard sympathetic statements from the Foreign House find out when all 127 of them will be designated? Secretary, and the US and the UK are both saying that he has been cleared for release. We need to know why we Mr Lansley: The hon. Lady was no doubt in the do not seem to have enough influence to get this man Chamber for questions to the Secretary of State for back. He has never been charged with any crime, and he Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. That subject has been there for 11 years. might have been raised in the course of those questions, but I hope she will forgive me for not being here at the Mr Lansley: I am sure the hon. Lady is as aware as time, so I do not know whether it was. If it was not, and many others in the House are of the representations if she particularly wishes to pursue the matter, may I that Her Majesty’s Government have been making about suggest that she seeks an Adjournment debate in order those in Guantanamo Bay. I will of course ask my to do so? colleagues in the Foreign Office to respond directly to her about the issue she has raised, and she may like to Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): raise it further at Foreign Office questions. You were incredibly kind to try to accommodate everybody in DEFRA questions, Mr Speaker. In the light of recent Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Will my right events, including the ash tree disease, chalara, and all hon. Friend agree to a debate in Government time on that has happened over food adulteration, will the the plight of the Tamil people at the end of the conflict Leader of the House see fit to review the time allocated in Sri Lanka and the innocent women and children who to questions to the Church Commissioners and, especially, were murdered and lost their lives? to questions to DEFRA, so that we can go back to Mr Lansley: I am aware of my hon. Friend’s concern having the full hour for DEFRA questions that we once and his repeated efforts to support the Tamils who have enjoyed? suffered in the way he describes. I cannot promise an immediate debate, but I will draw what he said to the Mr Lansley: I understand the point that my hon. attention of my ministerial colleagues and get them to Friend is making. These matters are discussed through respond directly to him. the usual channels and determined by the House collectively. I will of course take the opportunity to discuss with Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ colleagues whether there is a case for any change. Co-op): In a written question on 20 December 2011, I asked the Department for Work and Pensions about the Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May we number of people who had died while waiting for an have a debate on the millionaires’ tax cut, and can it be appeal on their work capability assessments and received led by the Prime Minister so that he can clarify whether an answer that up until October 2011 there were 30. I he will benefit directly from the cut? asked the same question on 27 June last year and was told that up to the end of April 2012 there were 32. Last Mr Lansley: The Opposition have decided to debate week, I received an answer from the Minister of State, tax fairness next week, so the hon. Gentleman might Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member like to contribute to that debate. Government Members for Fareham (Mr Hoban) to the same question, worded will also be able to contribute to it, and to highlight the in the same way, but with the period extended until the fact that somebody on the minimum wage who is working end of 2012, and was told that the information was not a full week will have seen their income tax halved under available. Those answers cannot all be correct. Given this Government as a result of the increase in the either that the earlier ones were inaccurate or that the personal allowance. later one was evasive, may we have an urgent statement from that Minister on the veracity of his answers to Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Today is written questions? world book day, and children up and down the country are going to school dressed as their favourite characters. Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will know that I I have joined in by dressing as Andrew Fraser, the cannot comment in detail on that without notice, but Social Democratic party MP for Edinburgh Carlton in I will of course talk to colleagues at the Department for Jeffrey Archer’s book, “First Among Equals”, who Work and Pensions to see whether we can establish the ends up in a coalition Government in this very House. reasons behind the different answers in respect of different May we have a statement from the Department for periods. Education on what it is doing to support school libraries, to ensure that such outlandish and far-fetched works of Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): My fiction are available to all? right hon. Friend mentioned migration and I congratulate the Government on reducing net migration by a third. Mr Lansley: I am sure that I am not alone in having May we have a statement on how local education authorities found the school library my favourite place to be when I can authenticate requests by parents from other EU was at school. My hon. Friend might not realise that I, countries for school places for their children? I understand too, am in costume. I am taking the part of the Chief that Bournemouth borough council—no different from Whip—with apologies to the Parliamentary Secretary other councils—has no requirement or indeed resource to the Treasury—in my good friend Michael Dobbs’ to check whether those parents are working legitimately book “House of Cards”. I am dressed as such. in the UK. The system is subject to abuse. 1129 Business of the House7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1130
Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend raises an issue that Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): May many hon. Members feel we should take an early we have an urgent debate on the uncontrolled immigration opportunity to report on. I know that my colleagues are that was allowed by the last Government and, in particular, working hard on a range of issues about access to on the effect that it has had in reducing the wages of the benefits and services. That work is ongoing and will be lower paid? This is a serious issue, given people’s current reported to the House in due course. I will make sure problems with the cost of living, and it needs to be that my hon. Friend is made aware of any response to looked into urgently. the particular issue he raises. Mr Lansley: In the last quarter, there has been a large Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): May we rise in employment among UK nationals and a substantially have a statement or debate in Government time in the smaller growth in employment among non-UK nationals. near future on the uptake of benefits, particularly among While we must ensure that those who come here to work senior citizens whose poverty levels run well over 15% are not subject to abuse in the sense of being paid less higher in some regions? Senior citizens in Northern than the minimum wage or experiencing other poor Ireland are missing out on up to £1 million a week by conditions, I think we can feel increasingly confident not taking up benefits, so more needs to be done to that we are enabling more people in this country who encourage take-up. are seeking jobs to acquire them.
Mr Lansley: The right hon. Gentleman has an John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): May opportunity to raise that matter with Work and Pensions we have a debate, or at least a statement, on the current Ministers on Monday. If I may say so, this Government plight of those who pay electricity bills? We have heard have worked hard to try to secure that. I am aware that that the big six are raising their prices again, and now one of the benefits—if I can be forgiven the pun—of we hear that they are also making excessive profits. Is it universal credit is that it will establish a more secure not time that we did something about that? basis to give people access to the benefits to which they are entitled. Mr Lansley: The Energy Bill has completed its Committee stage and will return to the Floor of the House in due Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): This course, when it will become clear to the hon. Gentleman week, we had the fantastic news that Jaguar Land Rover that—as we have discussed previously—the Government is going to invest a further £150 million, creating an are taking the power to require that consumers are given extra 700 jobs at the engine plant that the company is access to the lowest tariffs available. That, along with building in my South Staffordshire constituency. May the electricity market reform which is encapsulated in we have a debate on how we can continue to build on the Bill, is a tremendous step forward. the success of the automotive industry, which is bringing such benefits not just to the west midlands but to the Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): My right hon. Friend whole UK economy? will be aware of today’s ruling in the High Court about the children’s heart unit at Leeds general infirmary. I am Mr Lansley: It was encouraging news to hear about sure that he would like to take this opportunity to the 10% increase in new car sales over the course of the congratulate all those who have campaigned so vigorously earliest part of this year in comparison with the previous on the issue, not least my hon. Friend the Member for year. What is also tremendously encouraging about Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), whose campaigning has been Jaguar Land Rover is its dramatic success in international outstanding. Will he also ensure that a Minister comes markets and exports. The fact that that has been reflected to the House as soon as possible to make a statement in the investment in the engine plant near Wolverhampton about the implications of the ruling, and about how the which my hon. Friend mentioned is something that is Government intend to proceed from now on? greatly supported right across the House.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): May Mr Lansley: I pay tribute to Members who, as my we have a statement from the Government about when hon. Friend has said, have been assiduous in supporting they will sign the maritime labour convention? Enough their constituents and expressing their concerns. Those countries signed last August to make it international law concerns are understandable, but let me reiterate that—as this August, and the UK Chamber of Shipping and I think has been widely acknowledged—it is necessary others are warning that our failure to do so would to reduce the number of units responsible for children’s seriously disadvantage British shipping internationally. heart surgery in order deliver sustainable, secure, high- The Government support the measure and led the quality care for those children in the future. negotiations on it at the International Maritime It is clear from this morning’s decision that, while the Organisation, but for some reason it is mired in bureaucratic judge has determined that the application for judicial difficulty between Departments. I should be very grateful review must succeed, what that means in terms of an if the Leader of the House would look into the matter, order relating to the process itself is for future determination. and tell us whether we can have a statement. I think it best for me to wait and see what the judge says in relation to the process before pressing my colleagues Mr Lansley: I know of the support that the Government to make any kind of statement about how the joint have given to the negotiations. I hope that one of my committee of primary care trusts might proceed. roles can involve entering the innards of that bureaucracy to try to ensure that the process works more smoothly Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): Whatever and effectively. I will of course inquire of my colleagues urgent debates the Leader of the House wants to arrange to see what we can do to help the hon. Gentleman, and for next week, I must tell him that I may not be present, to succeed in the way that he describes. because the Independent Parliamentary Standards 1131 Business of the House7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1132
Authority has cancelled my travel card on the basis that which protects the most vulnerable in my community, I failed to submit my January conciliation form. It was particularly in workplaces. May we have a debate on submitted—I know that, because according to the online this? system it is “awaiting validation”, so it is clear that someone in IPSA has seen the form and typed those Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman may by all means words—but IPSA has cancelled the card nevertheless. seek to secure an Adjournment debate on these issues, It is unacceptable when this terminally abominable, and I will certainly talk to my BIS colleagues about the incompetent organisation fails to pay the simplest expenses, points he raises, but in this context he might like to but surely, when it starts to interfere with MPs’ ability celebrate the fact that employment in this country has to come to the House and return to their constituencies, risen by over 800,000 since the election and more than that is something about which the Leader of the House 1 million private sector jobs have been created. If his and every Member should be concerned. constituency’s experience is contrary to the national trend, he might like to consider what further measures to stimulate employment will be needed in his constituency, Mr Speaker: I understood what the hon. Gentleman especially as the area in general is seeing employment said. I think he is seeking a statement or debate on the growth. matter. [Interruption.] I know he wants his card back, but that does not of itself render his remarks orderly. They will be rendered orderly if there is a request for a Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): May we debate and I am sure there was such a request; I have a statement from the Justice Secretary about the probably just did not hear it. need to restore honesty in sentencing, with particular reference to the fact that convicted terrorists stand to benefit from being released halfway through their sentences, Mr Lansley: I am sure we all want to enjoy the hon. with the extra burden that will inevitably place earlier Gentleman’s presence here next week. To that effect, I than necessary on the police and security services? will draw directly to the attention of IPSA the points he has made and the cautious and modest way in which he expressed himself. I think there are other Members Mr Lansley: As my hon. Friend knows, the type and across the House who have found themselves in similar length of a sentence imposed is a matter for the courts, circumstances and who have some sympathy with him. but severe maximum penalties, including life sentences, are available for terrorism offences and terrorists frequently receive long custodial sentences. He will also know that Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): extended sentences imposed on those convicted of a I rise somewhat nervously to draw attention to a widespread specified terrorist offence attract eligibility for parole concern about the conduct of the Government’s business. consideration at the two-thirds point of the custodial I am sure the Leader of the House would join me in period, with automatic release only once the custodial congratulating the Backbench Business Committee on period has been served in full. I can assure him that our providing time to debate an aspect of the Francis report, right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice is but when are we going to have a full day’s debate in keen to ensure public protection and keeps these matters Government time on the Francis report? The Leveson under close review. inquiry gave rise to just such a debate in Government time. Surely our relations with the press are less important than what has happened at Mid Staffordshire hospital Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Children and its implications for the health service as a whole. We and Families Bill has much to commend it, but as it would not want the House of Commons to give the goes through Committee the bedroom tax will hit foster wrong impression about what we think is important. carers, adoptive parents, disabled children and some children with special educational needs, all of whom stand to benefit from the provisions in the Bill. Will the Mr Lansley: I am not sure I agree with my hon. Leader of the House use his influence to protect the Friend that the debate the Backbench Business Committee children affected by the bedroom tax so that the widely has scheduled for Thursday of next week is on one supported measures in the Bill are not completely aspect of the Francis inquiry report. I think it is about undermined by actions elsewhere in government? accountability and transparency in the national health service. He will have seen on the Order Paper the nature Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman is right. Of course, of the motion presented. I do not think it constrains the Children and Families Bill has a great deal to debate at all, and it is perfectly appropriate for us to commend it, including its important provisions for the proceed on the basis of the House considering this support of families with children with special educational matter next Thursday, as the business papers make needs. I am sure that he was in the Chamber and heard clear. I hope my colleagues will respond to the Francis the responses given by my right hon. Friend the Prime inquiry in the course of this month, which in itself will Minister to a series of questions yesterday. My right give us a basis for considering what processes follow hon. Friend made it clear that we must understand not from that. only the context of the £23 billion that is payable in housing benefit and the need to deal with that but how Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): More than the change is being undertaken in a fair way. It is 40 employment agencies are operating in Corby, which important to recognise that it brings the social housing is disproportionate. Having met representatives of the sector into line with practice in the private rented sector Department for Business, Innovation and Skills this in a way that offers not only access to a hardship fund week, I am particularly concerned that there are now but specific exemptions for some of the most vulnerable plans to cut the employment agency standards inspectorate, categories of tenants. 1133 Business of the House7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1134
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): May we have a he believed that if he had sought to talk about estimates, debate on the perspicacious and insightful fifth report he would have been ruled out of order, although I do of the Procedure Committee, which recommends that not believe that the Chair issued any ruling at all. As the the Second Church Estates Commissioner and the other House will know, the determination of the subjects for colleagues who answered questions earlier today should debate on those two estimates days was conducted by be allowed to make statements to the House on serious the Liaison Committee. I have read the report published matters of national importance? by my hon. Friends the Members for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and for Southport. There is a fair point, Mr Lansley: Yes, and, if I may, I will seek time, as it is which my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough our practice to do, to try to secure an opportunity for and I have discussed on the Public Accounts Commission, the House to consider matters recommended by Select about improving and enhancing the scrutiny of public Committees relating to House business. We will discuss expenditure by this House in a number of ways. I shall that through the usual channels in the normal way, but I not talk about what they might be, but I share the view entirely recognise my hon. Friend’s point, although, as that we should find an opportunity in the future to try he will recognise, only in extremely rare circumstances to enhance that. will it be felt appropriate for such a statement to be made. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Will the Leader of the House arrange for the Prime Minister to come to the Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): The Leader of the House and make an urgent statement so that we can do House has already, in passing, mentioned exports and it a fact check on his answer to me yesterday, which was is vital that economic recovery, when it finally comes, inaccurate when he claimed that severely disabled children, should be export-led. Sterling’s recent dramatic fall in pensioners and people needing round-the-clock care value should, at the very least, help the competitiveness were exempt from the council tax? With reference to of our exports, but net trade actually fell in the last children, those families with a second spare bedroom quarter and the Bank of England has described our will face the bedroom tax. The only reason that some trade performance as disappointing. May we therefore severely disabled children are exempted is a Court of have a debate on the crucial subject of trade and exports Appeal ruling which, perversely, the Government are to see how the Government can raise their game? challenging. Mr Lansley: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government do not have a policy for the value of the Mr Lansley: I think that when the hon. Gentleman referred pound in international markets. We have a policy to to council tax, he was referring to housing benefit. support growth, enterprise and employment in this [Interruption.] Be that as it may, the hon. Gentleman country and we can see how employment has increased and I heard what the Prime Minister said, and the Prime and how we are supporting the private sector in wealth Minister is assiduous in ensuring that what he says to creation through deregulation measures, the reduction the House is accurate. If ever what he said was not of corporate tax rates and the dramatic increase announced accurate, he would of course correct it. by the Chancellor in access to investment allowances. There are issues with exports, particularly, as the hon. Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): There is glorious news Gentleman will be aware, because of the dramatic reduction coming from the High Court this morning that campaigners in demand in the eurozone, which is hitting so many for the children’s heart unit have won their case against economies that are dependent on it. At the same time, the review. It is a tremendous victory for the parents in the first two years of this Government, British exports and families and I pay tribute to them. It clearly confirms of goods have increased by 47% to China, by 33% to the view that the review is flawed. The judge said that India, by 33% to Brazil and by 134% to Russia. As he the review team made an ill-judged and fatal mistake in rightly says, we need therefore to focus on stimulating not revealing how the Kennedy sub-scores were that activity. The Chancellor’s autumn statement gave compromised. Recognising that there will be a further very specific additional support to UK Trade & Investment judgment, may we have a statement on the day of that to do exactly that. judgment or the very next day so that we can get the matter resolved once and for all for those patients? Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Yesterday was estimates day, and as usual we voted through countless billions of pounds of public expenditure with Mr Lansley: As I said before, I pay tribute to my hon. no vote and no debate. Yesterday, however, something Friend and colleagues across the House who have been different happened. My hon. Friend the Member for assiduous in representing their constituents’ interests. I Southport (John Pugh) tried to talk about estimates on will not repeat what I said, but there will be a follow-on estimates day, but he was immediately ruled out of decision by the Court relating to what this decision order and told to get back to medical implants. As it means in terms of the process itself. As the process is happens, we have produced a report for the Chancellor conducted not by the Government, but by an independent on how to improve the accountability of estimates to joint committee of primary care trusts, it will in the first Parliament and it is sitting in the Library. May we have instance be a matter for it. I would not encourage my a debate in Government time about how we can talk hon. Friend to assume that it is the responsibility of about estimates on estimates day? Ministers at that moment to do other than to report the facts to the House. It is not their responsibility at this point to determine the progress of the review. Mr Lansley: I was present in the House and I think my hon. Friend is referring to the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) said that Several hon. Members rose— 1135 Business of the House7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1136
Mr Speaker: Order. There is still heavy pressure on Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The Financial Services time. I am keen to accommodate remaining colleagues Authority authorised Barclays bank to use KPMG and but I must reissue my appeal for extreme brevity, hopefully Deloitte as independent reviewers of the 40,000 interest to be exemplified by Mr Andrew Miller. rate swap agreements mis-sold to small and medium-sized businesses. May we have a debate about the true Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): independent City law firms, Eversheds and TLT, which Will the Leader of the House organise an urgent debate Barclays is using as its fact finders to interview by on the use of English in the House, following the new phone, for sometimes up to three hours, many of the euphemism that we heard yesterday, when the bedroom customers classified as “unsophisticated? They are tax became the spare room subsidy? I remind the right discouraged from having their solicitors present, refused hon. Gentleman that when the Conservative party changed a transcript and often feel that they have been cross- the community charge to the poll tax, it cost them a examined. Those tactics mean that the bank’s lawyers leader. might be breaching the solicitors’ code of conduct and only go to reinforce the bank’s reputation for bullying. Mr Lansley: When it comes to language in the House, we should first set out not to call things something that Mr Lansley: I think that the House will share my hon. they are not. Calling something a tax when it is not a Friend’s concern about the companies that have been tax is not a good use of language. affected by interest rate swap mis-selling. I will not attempt to answer the question she rightly asks, but I Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my right hon. will ask our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Friend seen my early-day motions 1097 and 1157 about Business, Innovation and Skills to write to her directly the cost of petrol and diesel and fuel poverty? about it. [That this House notes the action that the Government has taken to cut the cost of petrol and diesel, with a cut in Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The announcement fuel duty in 2011, two freezes in 2012 and the scrapping of earlier today about the permanent closure of Daw Mill the planned rise in January 2013; further notes, however, colliery will have far-reaching consequences not only that rocketing fuel bills are causing misery for millions, for the 650 people working there, E.ON, Ratcliffe power and that this matters because fuel duty is a tax on station and the 1.5 million tonnes of coal the colliery everything, hitting food prices, bus prices and everyone generated each year, but for the whole future of UK who commutes to work; further notes that fuel duty hits Coal, the British coal industry and the country’s energy the poorest the hardest, and that many workers in Harlow supply. Why has the Secretary of State for Energy and constituency and elsewhere are spending a tenth of their Climate Change not seen fit to come to the House today income just filling up the family car; and therefore calls on to make a statement on the matter? the Government to do everything in its power to stop the planned September rise in fuel duty and to help keep Mr Lansley: I would like to take this opportunity to prices down.] acknowledge the hard work of all those who responded May we have a debate on petrol prices and fuel so promptly to this major incident at Daw Mill colliery. poverty, following the report by the RAC Foundation It was, and continues to be, a serious incident. With that the poorest are paying 20% of their income to fill regard to helping UK Coal, the Energy Minister met up the family car, whereas the richest are paying 10%? the company to discuss the matter on Monday, and a cross-Government team led by the Department of Energy Mr Lansley: Yes, I have seen the early-day motions to and Climate Change is working with it. I will, of course, which my hon. Friend refers. I cannot promise an talk to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State immediate debate but as he knows, this is a matter that about when it will be appropriate to report to the House we have considered in the House and no doubt we will on the work the Government are doing, together with have an opportunity to do so again soon. I know that he UK Coal, to respond to the situation. believes, as I do, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken important steps to ensure that petrol at the Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): May we have a pumps is now 10p a litre lower in price than it would debate on the importance of the City of London in have been if the fuel escalator under the previous creating jobs and wealth and, in particular, growing Government had been carried forward. both public and private sector pensions, making Britain a wealthier country than it would be if we listened to Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): During the Opposition? the recess I tried to live on £18 a week, which is what my constituents will have once the bedroom tax is introduced. Mr Lansley: Yes, I am with my hon. Friend on that. I I found that I ran out of food before the end of the think that such a debate would be important, if the week. Will the Leader of the House find time for a opportunity arose. It would be an occasion to discuss debate on the bedroom tax and its impact on nutrition? the issue, rather than trying to devise some political advantage, in circumstances in which everyone knows Mr Lansley: I think the House had an opportunity, that it was the Labour party that was responsible for the on a motion tabled by the nationalist parties, to debate banking crisis that has so afflicted this country. Instead the housing benefit structure and the under-occupancy of apologising for that, Labour Members are trying to deduction. If the hon. Lady and her colleagues felt so take political advantage when they know perfectly well strongly that that was the most important issue to that we should actually be working together to ensure debate, I am surprised that they did not choose to bring that we have effective regulation of the banks, including it forward for debate next Tuesday, as they could have bankers’ bonuses and not the kind of regulation that done. could lead to higher costs and reduced competitiveness. 1137 Business of the House7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1138
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Yesterday we outline planning consent. That consent has now been saw a leaked internal report by the Scottish Government granted, and the site is being offered for sale on the showing that even Scottish National party Ministers open market by formal tender in a joint sale with a have huge concerns about the stability of the Scottish private landowner. My hon. Friend will understand that economy should Scotland become independent. May as the bids were received on 28 February and are being we have an urgent debate on the report, which would evaluated, they remain commercially confidential for show once and for all that Scotland is better together? now. However, I am told that the MOD is confident of a sale being completed shortly. Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because I must confess that I was unaware of the report Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): On to which he refers, but I will certainly seek an opportunity 12 February, during the Environment Secretary’s statement to read it. I cannot promise an immediate debate, but I on horsemeat, at column 742 of the Official Report,I think that, as we move towards to next year’s referendum, asked him whether he had ordered the testing of gelatine it is very important that we have the kind of debate he and gelatine-based products for horse DNA given that seeks in this House and across the country. they would extend to food such as children’s confectionery. The Secretary of State told the House that I had asked a Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Did the Leader of the good question but that these were matters for the Food House see the launch this week of the “Love Food Hate Standards Agency. I therefore wrote to the agency Waste” campaign here in Parliament? Given that the immediately after the statement. To date, I am still average family throws away food worth £270 each year, awaiting an acknowledgement, let alone a reply. Will may we have a debate on raising awareness of the issue the Leader of the House secure a debate in Government and on how effective packaging and labelling can reduce time about the accountability of Executive agencies, as the amount of food wasted? it seems that Ministers are unwilling to answer for agencies during statements and agencies are unwilling Mr Lansley: Yes, my hon. Friend makes a good point. to reply to Members of this House? Throwing away food not used in time is costing consumers £6.7 billion a year—£270 for the average household. Mr Lansley: I will of course seek to help the hon. Only about one in seven consumers realises that packaging Gentleman in getting a reply to his question. However, can play an important role in protecting food in our the Food Standards Agency is not an Executive agency; homes. The Fresher for Longer campaign launched it is a non-ministerial Government Department that is earlier this week can do a great deal of good in reducing accountable to this House through Ministers at the food waste and highlighting how people can ensure that Department of Health, of whom I used to be one, so I they eat food that is in good condition. fully understand the matter. I will talk to my hon. Friends to secure the response that he is looking for. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): This week the Daycare Trust revealed that child care costs across Britain are rising by £5 a week, or 6%—twice the cost of Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I am sure that living. May we have a statement on why the Government the whole House will be united in its support for the are still delaying bringing forward plans through the tax 650 workers of Daw Mill colliery and their families and benefits system to help families struggling with following today’s announcement by UK Coal of its declining living standards and child care costs? decision to close the mine and suddenly make most of the work force redundant following the recent underground Mr Lansley: I was interested in the figures published fire, which is yet to abate. I know that the Energy by the Daycare Trust and understand the concerns of Minister is doing all that he can to support the work many families. I therefore hope that the hon. Gentleman force during this difficult time. May we have a debate in will support not only the measures that have already Government time on energy policy and the vital role been brought forward but those recently announced by that the coal industry plays in the UK? the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Mr Lansley: I completely understand how concerned Truss), which are designed to give families exactly that my hon. Friend is, as are other Members, about the kind of help in meeting child care costs while maintaining circumstances of the continuing fire underground and quality. the closure of Daw Mill colliery. Of course, jobs are at risk as a consequence of that, notwithstanding that John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): May we have a statement they have been reduced in recent months through a from the Minister responsible for the Defence Infrastructure process of voluntary redundancies. As I said, not only Organisation? I remain very concerned that, in making Ministers at the Department of Energy and Climate the decision about the disposal of Wilton barracks, an Change but Ministers across the Government are seeking optimistic assessment is being made of the local authority’s to work with UK Coal to try to ensure that we provide likely attitude towards excessive housing on the site all the assistance we can. I hope that there will soon be when a locally supported bid has already met the needs an opportunity to update the House about what that of the local plan. It is crucial that local opinion is respected response can be. and that the Ministry of Defence does not accept a speculative bid that will not, in the end, be realisable. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the Leader of the House agree to a debate or a statement on the recent Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend raises an important point disclosure that one in four of the UK’s top companies for his constituents, and I completely understand it. I pays no tax at all, while an ordinary person on a lower am pleased to assure him that the Ministry of Defence wage continues to pay tax each and every week of the did take local opinion into account before seeking year? 1139 Business of the House7 MARCH 2013 Business of the House 1140
Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to Mr Lansley: I think I can assure my hon. Friend that know that the general anti-avoidance measure will come Treasury Ministers and others will respect the confidentiality into force in April—an important strengthening of our of the Budget statement. reduction of tax avoidance. If the hon. Gentleman does not have the opportunity to discuss these issues beforehand, Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Over the past two he might find that they are relevant to the debate on the years, Conservative-led Lancashire county council has Budget. approved the construction of four brand new primary schools: Laneshaw Bridge primary, a new Church school Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): We always in Barnoldswick, St Paul’s primary and Whitefield infant knew that the decision to close the children’s heart school in Nelson, where I am a school governor. May surgery unit in Leeds was flawed, biased and unacceptably we have a debate on investment in primary school opaque, and today we have found out that it was buildings, so that I and other hon. Members can welcome unlawful. In addition, the safe and sustainable consultation these developments and raise the cases of other schools as a whole has been declared unlawful and the conduct where investment is still needed? of the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts has been called into question and accused of failing in its Mr Lansley: I think that many Members throughout duty. I say to the right hon. Gentleman that we must the House will have been pleased by and welcomed the have a statement in this House, because the whole announcement by the Minister for Schools of additional review is now in chaos, and part of that statement funding for capital projects in schools. Lancashire county should say that JCPCT members should never take part council has been allocated basic need funding totalling again in any consultation on major changes to the £112.6 million for the period 2011 to 2015 to support health service. the provision of additional pupil places. In Lancashire, as in many places throughout the country, that will Mr Lansley: The High Court’s decision on the failure ensure that the condition of schools is improved. It also to disclose the sub-scores of the Kennedy scoring system responds to the demographic pressure moving through was announced only this morning, but the judge has the school system at the moment. It is very welcome. not made a further decision on the implications for the review itself or on the order she might make in that John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Being prevented from regard. I reiterate to my hon. Friend that it would be talking about Government estimates on estimates day premature for Ministers to make a statement. Indeed, it would have puzzled Franz Kafka. Does the Leader of is not for Ministers to make a decision in the first the House recognise that the report on improving instance, as this is an independent review conducted by parliamentary scrutiny of the nation’s finances mentioned primary care trusts. They should decide how to proceed by the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) was once the court has made its decision. actually commissioned by the Chancellor because he did not think that that scrutiny was good enough? Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Twice the Leader of the House has given sympathy to those people at Mr Lansley: Yes, my hon. Friend is right. The report Daw Mill colliery who have lost their jobs. UK Coal has been published, but it would be premature for me to owns other mines—not many, but they are still in say anything about how we might respond or take the business—and it may fold up completely as a result of issue forward. There is no question, however, but that the Daw Mill closure. It is one of the main employers we want to enhance scrutiny; this is not an Executive left in the coal-mining industry. Do the Leader of the who want to inhibit it. In many ways, we have enhanced House and this Government want to be in power when the scrutiny of the Executive by the House, and I hope the remaining part of the coal industry in England is that in this respect we can go further. closed down? Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Given that Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the number of applications from hon. Members for the closure at Daw Mill is the result of the catastrophic Adjournment debates always exceeds supply and given fire. I reiterate to him and the House that Ministers are that we are now going to sit on Friday 22 March, will in direct contact with UK Coal. The Minister of State, my right hon. Friend seek to enhance his reputation for Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. parliamentary innovation by effectively making that Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings day a Wednesday in Westminster Hall, so that there (Mr Hayes), met UK Coal on Monday and is co-ordinating might be a full programme of Adjournment debates to a cross-Government response. Some 1,300 people are enhance the House’s ability to hold Ministers to account. employed at UK Coal’s other sites, Thorseby and Kellingley, and the company believe that they remain viable operations. Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know that the On that basis, it does them no good to speculate in a House debated this matter and decided last night to sit damaging way about the viability of those operations. on Friday 22 March in order to continue the Budget debate. It is scheduled for that purpose, and I know that Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): May we many Members will want to contribute to that debate, have an urgent statement from the Chief Secretary to so I would simply limit it to that. the Treasury so that he can inform the House to which media outlets the Liberal Democrats will leak the Budget? Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): Right hon. and hon. Members will then know what For the third year running, the NHS staff survey at Medway papers to buy and what television programmes to watch. Maritime hospital in my constituency has reported an 1141 Business of the House 7 MARCH 2013 1142
[Rehman Chishti] UK’s Development Work (Girls and Women) increase in the number of staff members experiencing bullying. Will the Leader of the House allow an urgent debate or statement on this matter? 11.38 pm The Secretary of State for International Development Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend knows that the NHS (Justine Greening): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I staff survey this year shows an increased proportion of would like to make a statement on the UK’s international members of staff who feel they know how to raise issues, development work to support girls and women. but unfortunately no corresponding increase—in fact, a Tomorrow, we will mark international women’s day, very slight reduction—in the number who fear that which takes place amidst the negotiations of the UN their position might be prejudiced if they do so, although Commission on the Status of Women in New York. The the majority still feel that they can and would raise focus of this year’s CSW is on eliminating all violence these issues. As he knows, we have to arrive at a position against women and girls and sending the strongest where all staff feel entirely confident and empowered to international signal that the routine, everyday violence raise any issues affecting the safety of patients and if perpetrated against girls and women globally must end. necessary—although it should not be necessary—to The outcome of this year’s CSW is by no means assured, blow the whistle if they are not being listened to. however, and last year’s meeting failed to reach any conclusions, so the UK Government have been working Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): In responding tirelessly to avoid a similar outcome this year. to a debate in Westminster Hall yesterday, the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, This week, the Under-Secretary of State for International my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle Development, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Gregory Barker), made clear his view that consideration and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), has been attending of planning approval for onshore wind farms should the meeting in New York, and last night I spoke to our take place at the same time as planning approval for ambassador to the United Nations to identify what essential associated infrastructure. In mid-Wales, however, more the UK could do. Both I and my hon. Friend have a planning inspector appointed by the Minister has been playing our role in making the case for significantly taken exactly the opposite view. May we have a statement upping our work in this area. We have also been making outlining the Government’s position? the necessary calls and co-ordinating supporters to get a successful outcome. We cannot afford to repeat the Mr Lansley: I will ask the Minister of State to respond failure of last year. to my hon. Friend on that issue and, if there is any Alongside that key opportunity at the CSW,I want to question of more general application, to report to the inform the House of my intention to step up the UK House. Government’s support for girls and women in the world’s poorest countries. We have already helped to make great strides globally.Since 2011, our country has supported more than 2.5 million girls to go to primary school and a quarter of a million to make the transition to secondary school. We have helped nearly three quarters of a million women to access financial services, helped to secure property and land rights for nearly a quarter of a million women, and supported 1 million additional women to use modern methods of family planning. It is also appropriate this week to underline how urgent and great is the need for further sustained action. Around the world, one in three girls and women will be beaten or raped in their lifetime. Fewer than 20% of girls in sub-Saharan Africa have the chance to go to secondary school. A third of girls in the developing world marry before the age of 18, some as young as seven. Despite performing two thirds of the world’s work, women earn only 10% of the income and own only 1% of the property. Women represent only 20% of the world’s political leaders. I do not believe that there can be sustained development when only half a country’s population is involved. The evidence shows that when the potential of girls and women is unleashed, there are incredible returns for girls and women themselves, and for whole societies and economies. Investing in girls and women is the smart thing to do. An extra year of primary schooling for girls increases their wages by up to 20% and the return is even higher for secondary school. Such education means that women marry later and have fewer children, and that there are better health outcomes for the children they do have. 1143 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 7 MARCH 2013 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 1144 Women) Women) Investing in women and girls is also the right thing to During our G8 presidency, we are working across do. It is a matter of universal basic human rights. I government in support of the Foreign Secretary’s vital believe that it represents the greatest unmet challenge of preventing sexual violence initiative to ensure that G8 our time. The challenge is about three things to my members sign up to pledges on this unacceptably neglected mind: choice, so that girls and women can choose when issue. On the post-2015 agenda, we will work to ensure they have children and how many; control, so that that issues of voice, choice and control for girls and women and girls are free from violence and can take women are central in the new framework. I believe that control of their working lives and incomes; and voice, is critical if we are to become the generation that so that girls and women can be heard and are able to eradicates absolute poverty. speak out safely in their communities and at the national Britain needs to play a leading role globally, not just level. I intend to target DFID’s efforts relentlessly on by effort but by example. We must all ask the searching improving the lives of the poorest girls and women in questions and never turn a blind eye to women treated those crucial areas. unacceptably in our own country. Yesterday’s shocking On choice, we will honour the commitment that my EU report highlighted that there are 65,000 victims of right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made at the London female genital mutilation in the UK and a further summit on family planning last year. In addition, this 30,000 at risk. I pay tribute to the work that my ministerial week DFID is releasing funding for contraceptives that colleague the International Development Under-Secretary will help avert about 2.6 million unintended pregnancies, has done, not just at home, but abroad, in tackling this prevent the deaths of more than 4,500 women during issue. However, we have to be prepared to fight that battle pregnancy and childbirth, and avoid almost 65,000 infant here in the UK as well as internationally. So I believe deaths, and we will look to do more still. that today, the day the before international women’s On Afghanistan, I have decided that the UK country day, is a key opportunity for the House to come together plan will include tackling violence against women and in support of seeking irreversible gains in rights for girls girls as a country strategic priority. As troop draw-down and women and an end to violence for girls and women. takes place, gains must be built on and not lost. I know that hon. Members will wish to send a collective DFID is developing an ambitious new £35 million signal of support for this goal—they will want it to programme to combat female genital mutilation and come not just from the Government, but from Parliament cutting—the biggest ever investment in eradicating the as a whole—and I commend this statement to the practice. We want to help end the practice in a generation. House. I have established a research and innovation fund to drive forward successful initiatives to tackle violence 11.47 am against women and girls, and new programmes that Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): I thank the right respond to the specific needs of girls and women in the hon. Lady for advance sight of her statement, and from Democratic Republic of the Congo and Syrian refugees. the outset may I make it clear that we support the Later this year, I will launch an international call to important work that she and the Foreign Secretary are action on violence against women and girls in humanitarian doing on the crucial issues of the rights of girls and emergencies. An event in the autumn will bring agencies, women, and tackling violence against women? donors and advocates together to ensure that we all It is an indisputable fact that there is a direct correlation collectively up our game. I have written to the UN between women’s rights and progress in developing emergency relief co-ordinator, Valerie Amos, and the countries, especially in conflict-ridden and fragile states. UN Secretary-General to call on them to put the needs Of course, sustainable investment matters, which is why of women and girls clearly at the heart of humanitarian I want to begin by asking the Secretary of State how she programmes, including in Syria, where the number of can justify the Tory-led Government’s consistent failure refugees has passed the terrible 1 million landmark. to enshrine the UK’s 0.7% commitment in law. Last Finally, on control, the ability of girls and women to Friday, a Tory Back Bencher once again blocked the earn an income and control how they spend it is also progress of the private Member’s Bill of my hon. Friend essential, but the evidence on what works in this area the Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick). May I remind urgently needs building. That is why I have just launched the right hon. Lady that her party’s election manifesto a new partnership with the World Bank for a “gender promised to legislate on this in the first Session of innovation lab” to test what works in terms of giving Parliament? Is it not time she reminded her Back Benchers girls and women control over their economic lives. On —left, centre and Tea party—that they each stood on participation, research clearly demonstrates that women’s that manifesto at the last election? If the measure is not political participation achieves real changes. So I have in the Queen’s Speech, that will be not only a broken agreed funding for a new leadership for change programme, promise, but yet more evidence that although the Prime supporting the leadership skills of girls and women and Minister may still be in office, he is no longer in power. the opportunities for them to make a difference in their On the eve of international women’s day, it is right that local communities and nationally. we think about how UK aid can be focused to address As we continue our work on those issues, we will also the scourge of violence against women and girls. On my reach out to new partners. I know that we cannot simply most recent visit to eastern Democratic Republic of the preach to the converted; we need to do what works, Congo with World Vision, I saw for myself the terrible working with whoever we can to make it work on the impact that sexual violence has on the lives of women, ground. I am therefore establishing an expert advisory their families and their communities. One woman told group on girls and women, involving people from different me how three soldiers from a militia group had gang-raped worlds and including leaders from the human rights her and left her for dead. In the same attack her community, the private sector and civil society to help husband and three children were taken away and she shape my Department’s work in this area. never saw them again. Every day, that woman and many 1145 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 7 MARCH 2013 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 1146 Women) Women) [Mr Ivan Lewis] Does she agree that only a clear focus in that new framework on inequality and human rights will ensure like her cope with emotional and physical scars that an end to the exploitation of women across the world? may lessen over time but will never heal. It is essential that we tackle the culture of impunity, as well as the Justine Greening: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman underlying causes of violence against women. More started his remarks in a tone that did not particularly fit needs to be done to help women whose lives are blighted my statement, but in response to his question, it is the by violence and conflict. Will the Secretary of State say Government’s intention to enshrine the aid target of what her Department is doing to encourage the involvement 0.7% in law. I emphasise, however, that we have already of women in peacemaking and political reconciliation been getting on with that this year. design and processes, and in bringing to justice those who use rape as a weapon of war? I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman had a chance to visit the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and he International co-operation and co-ordination to prevent rightly spoke about the need to tackle some of the sexual violence in conflict on the ground is central to underlying root causes linked to attitudes and social any response. What are the Government doing to address norms. Such factors are one reason why it is particularly the fact that action against gender-based violence challenging to make progress in this area. We cannot internationally remains chronically underfunded? Will have a one-size-fits-all approach and our work must be she join me in expressing support for the One Billion country-specific and tailored to the needs of that country. Rising campaign led by Eve Ensler? Organisations such That is precisely what we do, and we are working in as UN Women have great potential but they do not have about 20 countries. A good example of such work is the the long-term financial support required to fulfil their Tawanmandi programme that the Government have important mandate. The aim is to join up the work supported in Afghanistan. It works with a number of done across the UN on gender equality and women’s community groups but sits alongside work nationally to empowerment, pooling resources to increase its impact strengthen women’s participation at a political level. and reach. As a member of the UN Women executive, We must also work—as we do—to strengthen justice will the Secretary of State tell the House what steps the systems so that when crimes take place there is no sense UK Government are taking to encourage other donors— of impunity for those crimes, and steps can be taken to private or public—to help ensure that UN Women has bring the perpetrators to justice. We have all seen the the core funding it needs to continue its work and shocking statistics about the lack of justice for women support women’s empowerment and gender equality? who suffer sexual violence during conflicts, which is I am reassured to hear that the Under-Secretary of why the Foreign Secretary is right to champion this State for International Development is taking a leading issue. role in UN negotiations on the UN Commission on the My Department has supported the One Billion Rising Status of Women in New York. Will she please clarify campaign, and I am delighted to say that the online what specific outcomes she is seeking to achieve and petition on our website has been signed by nearly 30,000 what criteria she will use to judge success? people. It is an important matter, which is why the CSW The Secretary of State is right to focus on giving is right to focus this year on eradicating violence against women choice through quality educational opportunities women. and access to essential family planning and education The hon. Gentleman asked about the role of UN programmes that will help avert unintended pregnancies Women. It is still a relatively new organisation, having and prevent deaths. As she is aware, however, US restrictions been set up in 2011. It is an amalgamation of some specifically related to abortion mean that humanitarian existing UN agencies that have worked in the area of aid managed by the International Committee of the women’s rights. I have spoken with Michelle Bachelet Red Cross cannot be used—shamefully—for victims of on a couple of occasions about the work that UN rape. Norway has made a bilateral request to the US Women does. She is clear that the organisation needs to that it lift the abortion ban on humanitarian aid for reform in order to be able to work more effectively at women raped in war as a matter of US compliance with the UN level and in terms of its programmes at country the Geneva conventions. Will the UK follow Norway’s level. example and make similar representations to our US allies? As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the Government have introduced the multilateral aid review, which I welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement of systematically looks at the effectiveness of taxpayer a new programme to combat female genital mutilation. money as used via multilateral organisations such as Like I and every Member of the House she will have UN Women. That organisation was not in existence the been horrified by the statistics that were revealed this last time we carried out that review, but I hope that it week. I pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for will get a good score in the next MAR. We are working International Development who has worked over a long with UN Women to ensure that it can achieve that. period to highlight an issue that has not been given enough attention in the past. In that context, what steps The hon. Gentleman asked about our aspirations for is the Secretary of State taking to end the practice in the the CSW. If he has read the draft conclusions being UK, working with colleagues across the Government, debated in New York this week and next, he will see that and how can we go further and provide protection they are strong conclusions and we should resist any against forced marriages and domestic abuse? watering down, although we should also recognise the element of negotiation in the process. I can assure him Finally, I am reassured to hear that the Secretary of that the work that we have done in public and private State is prioritising women’s rights and empowerment includes lobbying; cajoling countries that often stay in discussions on a new post-2015 development framework. silent to speak up; and encouraging like-minded countries 1147 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 7 MARCH 2013 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 1148 Women) Women) that are in favour of the CSW’s conclusions to work International Development, my hon. Friend the Member together. That work has seen a significant increase this for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), year compared with previous years. It would be a significant for her work in New York. However, we must ensure backward step for women’s rights if we were to fail to that other countries play their part. The Prime Minister reach good, strong conclusions at this year’s CSW, and is co-chairing the high-level panel to devise the next set we are working towards reaching those conclusions. of millennium development goals in Bali later this Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about abortion. month. Will the Secretary of State urge him, in that We all recognise how sensitive that issue is, but the UK leading role, to press for a stand-alone goal on gender has often been one of a handful of donors who are equality and women’s empowerment? prepared to fund work to ensure that women can have safe abortions, especially when they have become pregnant Justine Greening: I have been clear that I believe we through violence and in conflict situations. We recognise need a stand-alone goal, and that we need to see these that this is a sensitive area for other countries, but I can issues right the way through any new development assure him that we raise our concerns. It is an important framework. As my hon. Friend knows, the debate on area, and the UK can be proud that in spite of it being a what the new development framework should be once sensitive issue we have ensured that we provide support the millennium development goals come to an end in to women who need it in that situation. 2015 is at an early stage, but I can reassure her that, having been to the first two meetings in London and Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I warmly welcome the with the Prime Minister in Liberia, there is an understanding Secretary of State’s statement. It is incredibly heartening that it is vital for the issue of gender, which was in one and we are all very encouraged by it. I especially welcome of the MDGs in the first development framework, to be what she said about female genital mutilation. In the in the next framework. last few years through the all-party group, I have had the privilege of meeting some fantastic grass-roots Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): I would campaigners from Africa. Can my right hon. Friend like to press the Secretary of State a little further on the confirm that we will support these amazing people—mostly issue of Syrian refugees, which she touched on in her women—working in country and with diaspora statement. The number of refugees has now hit the 1 communities, to find out what really works on the million mark, and two-thirds of them are women and ground and to back them up in their brave and important children. The UN has said that it lacks the funds fight? necessary to deal with the crisis. Yesterday, the Foreign Secretary said that the UK Justine Greening: We are supporting the UN joint “will seek new ways to relieve the humanitarian crisis”.—[Official programme in work in this area. My hon. Friend is Report, 6 March 2013; Vol. 559, c. 962.] right: some of the strongest advocates in ending FGC Will she elaborate a little further on what that will are those people who have themselves suffered. It is a involve? Does she anticipate the UK increasing its terrible practice. Interestingly, it is not a religious practice, financial contribution to the aid effort? and we can enlist the support of religious leaders in making the case in their communities about why this Justine Greening: The UK has played a leading role practice should end. It is worth saying that the EU not only in providing financial and humanitarian assistance report published yesterday confirms that work remains to help alleviate the suffering of the 1 million refugees to be done right here in the UK, and we must not shy and, in addition, the many displaced people within away from that. Syria, but in beating the drum for other countries to step up to the plate. The Kuwait conference I attended a Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I welcome few weeks ago saw Arab nations, in particular, begin to the Secretary of State’s statement, but a lot of the aims put in significant funding. The hon. Gentleman asks are being put at grave risk by continuing sexual violence what more we can do. I am prepared to do more. in conflict situations. Strengthening the terms of the Unfortunately, if we continue to see refugees streaming draft arms treaty is one thing that could make a difference. across the Syrian border into neighbouring countries, it What discussions is the Department having with the is likely that we will need to do more. As I said in my Foreign Secretary on this important matter? statement, I raised formally at the UN the issue of how we deal with women and girls. That needs to be carefully Justine Greening: I assure the hon. Lady that the thought through and never missed in our humanitarian Department has discussions with the Foreign Office, work. From looking at similar situations, such as in and my right hon. Friend the Minister of State leads Haiti, we know that it is easy for the plight of women that work. She is right that the focus on women and and girls to be missed. They are never more vulnerable girls, particularly in relation to the prevention of sexual than in such situations. The hon. Gentleman is right to violence in conflict, must run through the Government’s raise the issue, and I assure him that we are raising it in work, not just in DFID but in other Departments too, the UN to ensure that the risks are mitigated wherever and that is why I welcome the Foreign Secretary possible. championing the initiative. It will also be on our G8 agenda; we will be beating the drum to ensure that other Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): G8 members sign up to that effort and join us. I congratulate the International Development Secretary on her statement, which clearly demonstrates the UK’s Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I wholeheartedly welcome commitment to women’s rights around the world. I the statement. I am proud of the work that the Government particularly welcome her commitment to tackling violence are doing to lead the world on gender equality, and in against women as a strategic priority for Afghanistan. particular I commend the Under-Secretary of State for Does she agree that we should ensure that human rights 1149 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 7 MARCH 2013 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 1150 Women) Women) [Nicola Blackwood] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): When I asked about the arms trade treaty at Foreign Office questions defenders and women in public office in Afghanistan on Tuesday, I was assured that although no DFID are protected? They are particularly targeted for abuse Minister was going to the talks later this month, they and violent intimidation when they stand up for women’s were very much taking an interest in it, working the rights. These women are our allies in ensuring and phones and so on. I was therefore concerned by improving women’s rights in Afghanistan and we should the Secretary of State’s response to my hon. Friend the be doing more to protect and support them. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), which implied that the issue is simply not on her radar at all, Justine Greening: In short, I agree with my hon. when it is so important to the matters addressed by Friend. Some of the most courageous people I have met her Department, such as poverty among women and during my time in this role were the women I met when I gender-based violence. Can I urge her to give it real went to Afghanistan at the end of last year. They are priority? amazing women who are literally putting their lives on the line to stand up for women’s rights in Afghanistan. They should be supported in doing that, which is precisely Justine Greening: I can assure the hon. Lady that I do why I believe it is now time to make this issue a more give the issue priority. I am making a statement today strategic priority in the work DFID does in Afghanistan. precisely because I think that the issue of women and girls is so important in all aspects. I hope she can Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Last Friday welcome that. To reiterate, I take her point on board. I I took part in an event at Aberdeen university which regularly meet the Foreign Secretary to discuss the work showed a moving film called “Sister”, which highlighted our two Departments do together and I can assure her the reality for pregnant women in developing countries. that this is precisely the sort of issue I discuss with him. The film was a graphic demonstration of why millennium development goal 5, on maternal health, is still some Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I congratulate way from being met. What action are the Government the Secretary of State on the excellent job she is doing taking to improve maternal health in developing countries and on today’s statement. On the issue of abortion, and increase the survival rates of women and their babies? although I completely understand that women who are subject to sexual violence and other issues that bring Justine Greening: Interestingly, in spite of all the about unwanted babies might want access to abortions, progress that has been mentioned, there is a huge issue, will the Secretary of State assure the House that there with issues in childbirth and pregnancy still representing will be strict criteria for the use of British taxpayers’ the largest reason for death among girls aged 15 to 19 in money for abortions and that it will not be for abortion developing countries. We are addressing that through a on demand? range of health interventions in many programmes, but also through family planning, as I have said, and, critically, education. We know that the better educated women Justine Greening: I think I can provide that assurance. become, particularly if they not only get to primary Our involvement has not been about the rights and school, but go on to secondary school, the later they start wrongs of abortion. In countries where abortion is their families and the healthier those families will be. permitted, and where we can support programmes that However, there is still a huge amount of work to be done make safe abortion possible rather than allowing unsafe in this area, and that is what we are getting on with. abortions, that is what we have focused on.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I think the whole Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I House will welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. very much welcome today’s statement. Earlier this week, Does she agree that all the millennium development I chaired a joint meeting of the all-party parliamentary goals are important in supporting women and girls? For groups on international development and the environment example, on water and sanitation, if girls have appalling and on water and sanitation in developing countries. sanitation when they go to school, they will be less We learned that, notwithstanding the huge progress inclined to stay there. They will drift away from school that has been made on access to water, sanitation and and remain illiterate. Some 40% of girls in countries hygiene, women and girls are consistently and substantially such as Ethiopia are illiterate; therefore, our family left behind when we measure success, not least because planning and other initiatives tend to fall on deaf ears of the taboos around menstruation and childbirth. Are and those girls miss out on life chances. When we look the Government confident that the ways in which they at post 2015, we need to ensure that we take all the intend to measure the effectiveness of their new initiatives millennium development goals forward and not cherry-pick will fully capture their impact on women and girls and one or another. They are a comprehensive set that all uphold their basic rights and dignities? need to be taken forward if we are to support women and girls. Justine Greening: I am confident, but there is a lot of Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right. Recently I work to be done. At a basic level, we are now focusing saw some research showing that while men in developing on gender-disaggregated data, so that we can understand countries viewed water and sanitation as their seventh the impact of our programmes in terms not only of highest priority, for women it was number two. Interestingly, overall value for money but of how they impact on men I think I am right in saying that the No. 1 priority for and on women. That is a significant programme of both men and women was getting a job. I will be work for us. The hon. Lady is right to highlight this making a speech next week about how DFID can help point, and we are increasingly starting to look at how to make that happen. our programmes affect women and girls explicitly. 1151 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 7 MARCH 2013 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 1152 Women) Women) Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): With Justine Greening: I am not sure whether we can go the support of DFID, ShelterBox, a very good charity quite that far in practice, but I can assure the hon. based in Cornwall, is delivering practical support to Gentleman that the focus on women and girls will refugees in Syria and Lebanon. What more can be done become a more hard-coded bit of our Department from to support the women and girls who are fleeing from the now on. For example, our multilateral aid review is dreadful atrocities in Syria—particularly the sexual violence currently under way, but when we do our next one in that is being committed against them? 2015, the way in which multilateral agencies look at the issues of women and girls will be one of the factors that Justine Greening: There are a number of things. First, we use in assessing their performance. He is right to say we must ensure that we have human rights monitors that we want to see countries moving in the right who are able to go into Syria so that we can find out for direction on this agenda. The debate that is happening ourselves what is happening on the ground. Secondly, in New York, in which the Under-Secretary of State for many of the women who are leaving are by that stage International Development, my hon. Friend the Member the head of their household as their husbands are no for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), longer with them, and we must ensure that they get not has been involved this week, shows that that is a challenge, only the care, often medical care, that they need but but it is one that we need to meet head on. counselling for the trauma that they—and, often, their children—have gone through in order to make it to the refugee camps. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): I thoroughly commend my right hon. Friend for her Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I welcome every powerful and moving statement. Will she commend the word of the Secretary of State’s statement, but I want to work of the Global Poverty Project, which has done so dispute one letter. She spoke of setting up an expert much to promote the empowerment of women as one advisory group on girls and women. Will she also of the five principles that are absolutely essential to ensure that it is an expert advisory group of girls and rescuing societies from poverty and despair? Can she women? Perhaps it could include people such as my tell us what support she is giving to the project in order constituent Samira Khalil, a young woman from an to help it in this important work, which is winning the Afghani family who was educated in Brent North and is argument? now studying at Cambridge, or Faisa Mohamoud, who works for the Help Somalia Foundation and who could Justine Greening: I will write to my hon. Friend about tell the right hon. Lady a thing or two about female the precise support that we are giving to the project, but genital mutilation and how it affects that community. I can say that some amazing work has been done by Let us make sure that it is a women-led group with such organisations. In the UK, Emmeline Pankhurst women’s experience at the heart of it. was being arrested for fighting for votes for women 100 years ago. It is staggering that in so many other Justine Greening: I suspect that it will be women-led, countries, women’s rights are still at such a basic level although there will be no absolute bar on men being and still having to be fought for. I said this week that the involved. issue of women’s rights remains one of the greatest Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): unmet human challenges that the world faces, and it is I congratulate my right hon. Friend on her excellent and incredibly important that we do anything we can to very encouraging statement. Does she welcome the work with those organisations to raise the issue and do warm endorsement that Kate Allen, the head of Amnesty something about it. International, gave to the Government’s policies on women and girls on Monday? Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Last April, members of the associate parliamentary group Justine Greening: Yes, I was delighted by that. It was for the Republic of Sudan and South Sudan and I very good of Amnesty to allow me to make my speech visited Lakes state in South Sudan and saw for ourselves at its headquarters here in London. Amnesty has been the enormously empowering effect that smallholder pressing us for some time to focus more strategically on agriculture projects can have on women’s economic the work that we are doing, particularly on women and rights in sub-Saharan Africa. Will the Secretary of girls in Afghanistan, and I was pleased to be able to set State tell us what investment plans her Department has those policies out to Kate on Monday. to support women’s economic development in that region Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I welcome the during the remainder of this Parliament? priority that the Secretary of State is giving to women and girls, and I hope that she welcomes the work that Justine Greening: I know that my hon. Friend the the International Development Committee is doing on Under-Secretary of State for International Development the subject at the moment. I once asked the noble has looked at this area. Sudan and South Sudan are Baroness Afshar, before she was appointed to the House among the most challenging areas in which we carry of Lords, what would make the most difference to British out our work, and women’s economic empowerment in development policy in supporting women and girls. She the region is incredibly important. In countries such as said that it would be to ensure that there always had to Kenya, women have access to only 1% of land titles, and be a woman’s signature on the cheque book. When the without collateral, women cannot get a loan. Without a Secretary of State is talking about budget support, will loan, they cannot develop their businesses. Much of our she seek to ensure that, when decisions are taken by the work is related to access to finance, as well as to Governments to whom we give money, women Ministers allowing and helping women to grow the small businesses in those Governments are required to sign off any that they want to run, many of which involve agriculture decisions before they are made? and farming. 1153 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 7 MARCH 2013 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 1154 Women) Women) Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): In Justine Greening: I thank my hon. Friend for those recognising international girls’ and women’s day, may I words. Nigeria is a huge country, and we have a very say how sad it was that the Opposition opened up by large education programme—two programmes, in fact— complaining about the 0.7% of GDP official development that can be a real challenge to deliver, particularly when assistance spending? They had 13 years in which to we are often working in remote rural areas. As he says, correct that position, and this Government are already part of our work is to make sure that we have a spending that amount. It was sad that they had to open programme that sees girls able to talk about issues and up with those comments. to get educated at the same time. The issue of women I commend my right hon. Friend’s powerful statement, teachers is a particularly important one. We often see—not from which I will take away some stark statistics. Women necessarily in Nigeria, but across the world—women perform two thirds of the world’s work, but they earn teachers being intimidated not to get involved in teaching. only 10% of the income, own 1% of the property and The earlier little girls can see role models of women hold 20% of the leadership positions. That suggests that doing jobs, having successful careers and earning income, there is much more work to be done. She mentioned the better. That is why the issue is so important. that there had not been a good outcome at the UN talks last year. Will she tell us what needs to happen this year James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con): to ensure that that outcome is not repeated? My wife grew up in Kenya and now sponsors a family there through Plan UK. Has the Secretary of State had Justine Greening: All countries that have been keen to a chance to speak to Plan UK about its assessment of see the strong draft conclusions agreed have been lobbying how we can help women and girls in Kenya? furiously behind the scenes and in public. I have had two conversations with Michelle Bachelet, and my hon. Justine Greening: I have not met Plan UK explicitly, Friend the Under-Secretary of State has done some although I know it is coming into my Department in the excellent work this week in New York on behalf of the next few weeks. Its work in Kenya has, I think, been Government as the cross-government champion on violence transformational. Real progress is being made in Kenya against women. At EU level, we have encouraged a generally. Where I would like to see my Department unanimous EU approach to the issue. However, there is doing more is in helping the country’s economy to no doubt that those countries that do not want to see develop. Ultimately, alongside developing public services progress have also been getting organised, and there is and improving basic services, Kenya needs economic no guarantee that we will be able to avoid a repeat of growth and jobs. Interestingly, UK companies did last year’s outcome. That would be a tragedy, and it is £1 billion-worth of trade with Kenya last year. I have no one that we are desperately trying to avoid. doubt that companies will have a role to play in joining the development push where Kenya is concerned. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I was disappointed with the last speaker’s remarks, as it has been demonstrated here that there is a lot of support Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I across the House for what the Secretary of State has welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. She will done. I, for one, welcome her statement. Will she tell me know that Pakistan will be one of the largest recipients what progress has been made to stop the trafficking of of UK aid by 2015. One of the biggest problems facing women? Pakistan is population growth and lack of family planning, which has led to about 80% of maternal deaths. What discussions has my right hon. Friend had with the Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman will be pleased Government of Pakistan to address these issues? to hear that we are nearing completion of a programme that will up our game in combating human trafficking. We have done a lot of work on it, although it is not Justine Greening: I was in Pakistan a few weeks ago, quite finished in the sense of us being able to roll it out. and I had the very same discussions that my hon. We want to do more work on the subject. I have met the Friend mentions. Interestingly, much of the work we do head of the all-party parliamentary group on human for girls in Pakistan is focused on education. We have a trafficking, my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough huge programme, focused particularly on states such as (Mr Bone), who has campaigned tirelessly on the issue Punjab, that provides young girls with the chance to go himself. One of my Department’s roles is not just to to primary school and then on to secondary school for focus on countries in which we see women’s rights being the very first time. We know statistically that when girls eroded, but where aspects of that relate to the UK, to spend more time in school, they are less likely to start a see what we can do by working with UK Government family quite so early. Alongside direct family planning Departments to stop this terrible trade. and access to safe family planning, that is one of the best ways of tackling these issues in the long term. Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Secretary of State rightly makes a lot of empowerment, and Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): All who believe I commend the work of her Department in Nigeria, in fairness through gender equality will welcome the particularly on the development of school-based Secretary of State’s statement. Does my right hon. management committees and girls’ clubs in primary Friend agree that if we are to maximise the British voice schools. Solidarity is an important facet of dealing with on the international plain, we must focus absolutely on the problem and the Department has gone a long way gender mutilation and other abuses here in Britain, as to achieving it, although there remains much to do. well as on other equality issues such as the continuing Also critical is the need for more women teachers. wage gender gap? 1155 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 7 MARCH 2013 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 1156 Women) Women) Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right; in a nutshell, Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Raising my daughter we have got to walk the talk. However sensitive and over the last 10 years has been one of the most important difficult it can sometimes be to discuss what is happening roles I will ever carry out. I seek assurances from my in our own country on women’s rights, particularly right hon. Friend that when it comes to DFID projects, regarding FGM or forced marriage, I think we have to fathers and responsible male role models are, wherever have that debate. It is time that we did. I hope we can possible, made part of the upbringing of disadvantaged lead by example. I pay tribute to the work that my right girls? hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport are doing in this Justine Greening: I can give my hon. Friend those area. If we are to be credible, that work is vital and it assurances. We are funding programmes in Nigeria, for must go on alongside the work my Department is doing. example, which do just that. Part of the research that we are conducting on violence against girls and women and Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I congratulate how it can be tackled relates to how we can change my right hon. Friend on her statement and on all the attitudes and involve boys and men in the eradication of work she is doing as Secretary of State for International such violence. Development. She quite rightly mentioned in her statement that she will apply special measures to the Afghanistan Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): It is very sad that programme, but which other countries that are recipients some people are suggesting that there are more slaves in of UK aid have most to do to improve their record on the world than there have ever been before. As a delegate women and girls? to the International Committee of the Red Cross, my Justine Greening: Unfortunately, it is quite difficult to wife watched slavers moving across south Sudan towards single out any particular countries, but we know that the middle east with girls, boys, women—mainly—and when we invest £35 million to tackle female genital a few men. What measures can my right hon. Friend cutting, we are aiming to eradicate the practice in take to try to stop this abominable trade? 15 countries. In some communities, however, this practice is starting up, so we are not necessarily combating a Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right to raise that problem that has reached its zenith so that we are trying issue. It is 180 years since the House passed an Act to get it down to zero. We are working against the tide in abolishing slavery, but in reality, as he says, that is the some places, so I am not going to single out particular day-to-day life that many people face. I assure him that countries, not least because we want to hold out a hand I work tirelessly with the Foreign Secretary to combat it. to them to get them to move along the path we want. We must tackle the problem at national and international We are careful about how we manage to achieve that. levels and at the grass roots, but if we are to tackle some of the root causes, we must also enable people to be Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I warmly welcome more valuable if they stay where they are, which means my right hon. Friend’s statement. Yesterday, I attended ensuring that they are educated and have skills. The a meeting hosted by Raja Najabat Hussain, the chairman biggest value that they have should lie in their staying of the Jammu Kashmir self-determination movement, put and doing a job domestically. In future, the economic and met the head of the women’s wing of that organisation development aspect of what DIFD does will need to to mark international women’s day. Kashmiri women constitute a far bigger part of its overall work than it and girls have been deeply affected by the dispute in the has in the past. Ultimately, trafficking and slavery are region and have been denied their basic human rights about money, so we need to change the money argument for far too long. I welcome what my right hon. Friend if we are to see a real change in outcomes. has said about her work in areas such as Afghanistan and Syria, but what more can we do to support the Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Last week women and girls of Kashmir? I was a member of a Conservative Women’s Forum panel discussing sanitation and water. A representative Justine Greening: We have talked a lot about education of WaterAid said that some of schools that are now and health today, but some of the work on justice and being built—and it is fantastic that girls are getting into strengthening justice systems is also important alongside schools—do not have bathrooms. Can we do anything that, as is ensuring that the right laws are in place at the about that? Should we not take all possible opportunities legislative level, so that women and girls have recourse to achieve the millennium development goals referred at the national level. Those are the other building blocks to earlier by the hon. Member for Moray (Angus that we should try to ensure are in place. Part of what Robertson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury DFID does is to work with institutions to strengthen (Sir Tony Baldry)? them so that they are better able to deal with these issues—from a top-down basis, as well as from a grass-roots programme bottom-up basis. My hon. Friend mentioned Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right. It is often the particular area of Kashmir, which is representative not good enough just to establish the infrastructure. We of the fact that in many of the places where DFID does need to ensure that we have looked at every aspect of its work, the circumstances are incredibly challenging—so the barriers that prevent girls from going to school. much so in some cases that it is quite hard for our staff When I was visiting family members back in Rotherham practically to get out and deliver the job and the the other day—I will keep it brief, Mr. Deputy Speaker—I programmes. Yet that is what they do, and I would like opened the Rotherham Advertiser to see the headline to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all the DFID “Knickers for Malawi”. Two women in Rotherham are staff in all those countries whose living conditions are collecting knickers and sending them to little girls in incredibly challenging. They get on with their jobs and Malawi, because, as we know, one of the reasons parents make a huge difference to the people they help. are reticent about sending their girls to school is their 1157 UK’s Development Work (Girls and 7 MARCH 2013 1158 Women) [Justine Greening] Point of Order worry about the girls not having the appropriate underwear 12.33 pm —and who can blame them? We need to remove some of those unusual and unpredictable but important barriers, Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): On a as well as investing in the obvious infrastructure. point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I apologise for clumsily trying to make it earlier. During business questions today, the shadow Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle)—to whom I have given notice of my point of order—referred to me and to an article in The Sun. I was under the impression that it was a convention in the House that a Member who was to be mentioned by another should be given notice. If the hon. Lady had done that, I should have been able to inform her that the comments in the paper to which she referred were completely untrue, and that I am in the process of exchanging letters and seeking an apology and a retraction. However, at least this point of order has given me an opportunity to put it on record that I do not believe that the Prime Minister is sexist in any way, and also that the House should celebrate unconscious bias training as a way of increasing diversity, which we should all want.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Let me say in fairness that the shadow Leader of the House apologised to me for having to leave because she had to attend a meeting that was about to start. She waited as long as possible. The hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) was in the Chamber when she was mentioned in passing. It was not a personal attack; it was merely a mention of the hon. Lady, so the normal custom did not apply. If the hon. Lady had not been present and it had been a personal attack, one would have expected her to be notified. The hon. Lady is, rightly, seeking a retraction from The Sun. That is not a matter for the Chair, but let me say that the House wishes her well. Business without Debate
SUPPLY AND APPROPRIATION (ANTICIPATIONS AND ADJUSTMENTS) BILL Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 56), That the Bill be now read a Second time. Question agreed to. Bill accordingly read a Second time. Question put forthwith, That the Bill be now read the Third time. Question agreed to. Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. 1159 7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1160
Justice and Security Bill [Lords] of the Security Services. In our view, this can be achieved without comprising individual operations if the political will exists to provide more detailed information to Parliament about the policy [2ND ALLOCATED DAY] framework, expenditure and activities of the relevant agencies.” [Relevant Document: The Eighth Report from the Joint The provisions in the Bill are therefore welcome on the Committee of Human Rights of Session 2012-13, Legislative whole, but amendments 8 to 14 would remedy a crucial Scrutiny: Justice and Security Bill (second Report), deficiency in the struggle to provide that political will to HC 1014.] answer to Parliament. Further consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public The amendments would have a very simple effect. Bill Committee They provide for the election of a Chair of the ISC from the House of Commons on the same basis as Clause 1 the election of Select Committee Chairs, apart from the THE INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY COMMITTEE fact that candidates would be required to obtain the formal consent of the Prime Minister in writing before 12.35 pm standing. Ministers would be ineligible. Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I beg to move There are three reasons why reform of the ISC is amendment 8, page 1, line 7, leave out ‘nine’ and insert needed. First, it tried, but failed, to get to the bottom of ‘an elected Chair and eight other’. British involvement in rendition; its investigation of British complicity in extraordinary rendition was a test Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it that it failed. will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 9, page 1, line 9, at end insert— Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): As an ISC ‘(2A) The Chair is to be a member of the House of Commons member of seven years’ standing, may I say that I take elected in the same way as the Chairs of Departmental Select Committees. grave offence at what the hon. Gentleman has just said? We looked very thoroughly at the evidence on rendition, (2B) A person is not eligible to be elected as Chair of the ISC and arrived at suitable conclusions. I think that to make unless that person— a blanket allegation of that kind without providing any (a) has received the formal consent in writing of the Prime evidence to back it up, which I hope he will now do, is Minister to that person’s candidature, and unacceptable. (b) is not a Minister of the Crown.’. Amendment 10, page 2, line 3, leave out subsection (6). Steve Baker: The hon. Gentleman’s intervention has Amendment 11, in schedule 1, page 16, line 5, after slightly pre-empted a quotation that I was about to give. ‘person’, insert In a recent pamphlet, my hon. Friend the Member for ‘elected as the Chair or’. Chichester wrote: Amendment 12, page 16, line 7, after ‘(2)’, insert ‘The “The ISC found no evidence that the UK agencies were complicit Chair or’. in any extraordinary rendition operations and concluded that, Amendment 13, page 16, line 12, after ‘is’, insert ‘the during the critical period (from 2001 to 2003), the agencies had no Chair or’. knowledge of the possible consequences of US custody of detainees Amendment 14, page 16, line 16, leave out generally, or of Binyam Mohamed specifically.” ‘Parliament by virtue of which the person is a member of the He went on to say: ISC’ “The opposite was the case. Successive court judgments have and insert ‘Commons’. now made clear that the UK ‘facilitated’ the interrogation of Amendment (a) to Government amendment 58, line 11 Binyam Mohamed. Furthermore, High Court judgments in February and July 2009 concluded that crucial documents were not made at end add— available to the Committee by the Secret Intelligence Service, ‘(e) may make payments to the Independent Parliamentary which led to the Committee’s Report on Rendition being inaccurate”. Standards Authority and House of Lords in respect of any expenditure incurred, or to be incurred, in I see the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) relation to remuneration payable to ISC members in shaking his head, and I regret that he is offended, but respect of their membership of the ISC.’. the reality is that allegations have been made about the Committee’s performance, and made credibly, by my Steve Baker: Before I deal with amendments 8 to 14, hon. Friend. What the amendments seek to do is not to which stand in the name of, among others, my hon. haul the Committee over the coals, but to demonstrate Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), I should that there is a strong, clear case for the Chair to be explain that my hon. Friend has been unavoidably elected. diverted by long-standing and immovable duties in relation to the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. The ISC thought that it had reached the truth, but it He sends his profuse apologies to the House. had not. MI6 had been complicit in extraordinary rendition, and it was left to the courts to expose the I am acutely aware of what is at stake in relation to truth. the Intelligence and Security Committee. In 2009 the Joint Committee on Human Rights published a report entitled “Allegations of UK Complicity in Torture”, Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I am following which considered the ISC’s ability to work within a the hon. Gentleman’s argument with interest. What circle of secrecy and yet deliver credible scrutiny. It evidence does he have to suggest that the information states: would have been provided if the Chair had been elected “The missing element, which the ISC has failed to provide, is by this House? We all want that information to be proper ministerial accountability to Parliament for the activities provided, but how would this proposal fix the problem? 1161 7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1162
Steve Baker: It is, of course, very difficult to prove (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) would be analogous to MPs such things conclusively, but I will come on to discuss being chosen by sitting MPs? True democracy means the evidence that the election of Select Committee that those outside the little magic circle of the Whips’ Chairs has made those Committees more authoritative, favourites have a say. which is a point the Government have endorsed. First, however, I want to raise two other issues. Steve Baker: I perhaps would not have chosen precisely the same words, but I entirely agree with my hon. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): As the Chairman of Friend’s sentiments. the Committee that produced the report, I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that it would not have made the slightest difference if I had been elected by Members of Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I am sorry this House, as opposed to being appointed by the Prime to disagree with both my hon. Friends, especially as Minister, as I was. they really are my hon. Friends. That analogy breaks down because this is not MPs being elected by other Steve Baker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman MPs; rather, it is the Chair of the Committee being for giving his opinion, and I do not mean any slight elected by a group of MPs who will have been chosen against him personally, of course, but before addressing with the final say-so of the House of Commons. The that specific point I would like to talk about the experience other point I would simply make is that I do not think the House has had since Select Committee Chairs have people who know either me or my right hon. and been elected. learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) would regard us as falling entirely in the The second reason why the ISC needs reform is Whips’ narks category. because its independence has been compromised by its ties to the Executive. In recent years, a string of appointees have come out of Government to chair the Committee, Steve Baker: Since my hon. Friend has brought me on only to return to the Front Bench afterwards. Until the to this territory early, let me deal with these points now, June 2009 reshuffle, all of the preceding three Chairmen first by saying to my right hon. and learned Friend that of the Committee went straight back into senior I well remember the month when he became Secretary Government posts. They were Ann Taylor, now Baroness of State for Defence, because it was when I graduated Taylor of Bolton, and the right hon. Members for from initial officer training. I am very well aware of his Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and for Derby South (Margaret august experience and the extent to which it exceeds my Beckett). own. I am also well aware that my hon. Friend is a man Despite Standing Order No. 152E, introduced under of great character and integrity and personal courage. the previous Prime Minister, Kim Howells was appointed This is not really the issue, however. The issue is the as Chair by that Prime Minister in October 2008 without institutional arrangements we put in place not necessarily the involvement of the Committee of Selection. Experience to constrain my right hon. and learned Friend and my of Government is no doubt valuable, but the revolving hon. Friend, but to ensure the Committee is credible door between the chairmanship of the ISC and the both now and in future. Government should be blocked. It is damaging to the Committee’s credibility. Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I want to be clear about my hon. Friend’s position. Is he concerned that, as on previous Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): I am grateful occasions, I might be asked to rejoin the Government in to my hon. Friend for giving way, especially as I must the near future? If so, I would be grateful if he would apologise because I will not be able to attend much of share any relevant information with me. this debate as I have to travel overseas. I put it to my hon. Friend that the point he makes is already met by the reforms in the Bill, because in future 12.45 pm not only will the House of Commons have to approve Steve Baker: As I am sure my right hon. and learned any member of the Committee and be able to reject Friend knows, I am often in close contact with the recommendations from the Prime Minister, but the Whips, but not usually on that matter. Chairman will be elected by the Committee members from among themselves, who in turn will have been The third reason why the ISC needs to be reformed approved by the House of Commons. It was the Prime is because it has seemed unwilling to demonstrate that it Minister who appointed me and all my predecessors; challenges the information it receives from the intelligence that is the current situation, but he will no longer have and security agencies. The Joint Committee on Human that power. Rights found the ISC’s 2007 report on rendition to be “opaque” and too readily accepting of the accounts Steve Baker: My right hon. and learned Friend accurately presented by the agency heads, without sufficient reflects the Bill’s contents, but as I shall explain later, I justification. do not think it is right that the Chair should be elected The crucial reform that is necessary is direct election by the nominated members of the Committee approved of the Chair by the House of Commons. The Wright by the House. I think the Chair should be elected by the Committee—the Committee on Reform of the House whole House under secret ballot. of Commons—thought extremely carefully about this issue. Paragraph 74 of its report states: Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): Does my hon. “The credibility of select committees could be enhanced by a Friend agree that the situation outlined by my right greater and more visible element of democracy in the election of hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington members and Chairs.” 1163 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1164
It also states: Steve Baker: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend on “Their election by a small group of Members, acting under that point, but that is why the amendment is phrased in party constraints, is evidently not conducive to producing a truly the way that it is. It does not seek that individual independent figure with the required weight inside and outside members of the Committee should be elected; that is a the House which House-wide election might confer.” compromise that those who introduced it have agreed That is precisely my point. to. There is agreement that Committee members should be nominated by the Prime Minister and approved by Those of us who were elected in 2010 have experienced the House, as the Government have proposed. The first hand only the operation of Select Committees crucial distinction is that the Chairman, who is the key under Chairs directly elected by the House, so I personally figure of the Committee, should be elected by secret struggle to draw a comparison. However, in responding ballot of the whole House and that that Chairman to the Liaison Committee’s second report of Session should have been previously agreed to by formal consent 2012-13 on Select Committee effectiveness, resources of the Prime Minister in writing, which gives the Prime and powers, the Government acknowledged: Minister and the security establishment the opportunity “Chairs of select committees are now elected by the whole to exclude any Member who might not be an appropriate House, giving them increased authority and independence.” person. Who am I to disagree with the Government on this point? Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Has my hon. Friend taken on That is precisely the reason for these amendments. It board the ultimate argument against his amendment—that may suit the Government to be scrutinised by carefully is, the invidious position in which it would put the selected nominees who elect a Chair from among Prime Minister of the day? If someone has sought to themselves, as the Bill proposes, but the risks to the stand as candidate for the Chair and the Prime Minister credibility of the Committee are obvious. has refused to give his consent, that is not a private matter. That would become a public matter and the Prime Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The hon. Minister would either have to refuse to give his reasons Gentleman is seeking to make the perfectly logical and or, if he did give his reasons, those might be very rational argument that the Chair and membership of damaging to the reputation of the individual Member the ISC are analogous with the Chair and membership concerned. When the ISC considered this question, as of other Committees. Does he not accept, however, that we did when we were putting forward our original as the ISC deals with intelligence matters and our secret proposals to the Government, we rejected that idea intelligence services, other factors must be taken into precisely because it would put the Prime Minister in an account, because the trust relationship—not collusion invidious position that he could not be expected to or a cosy relationship, but a trust relationship—between carry out without creating much greater problems. the agencies and the members of the Committee is crucial to effective scrutiny? If the agencies do not have Steve Baker: I recognise that my right hon. and that confidence and trust, they will be less forthcoming. learned Friend is advancing that argument with the best possible intention, but we live in a time when, because Steve Baker: The right hon. Lady’s question pre-empts of terrorism and the fear of terrorism in particular—to some of my other remarks, but let me just draw her pre-empt my concluding remarks—there has been an attention to what amendment 9 states: encroachment on our fundamental principles of liberty and justice, which we see elsewhere in the Bill. It is in “The Chair is to be a member of the House of Commons elected in the same way as the Chairs” that context that we must make sure that the security services are held properly to account in a transparent of other Committees, and: and credible way. “A person is not eligible to be elected as Chair of the ISC Here is the crucial point: in other Select Committees, unless that person— transparency can do the heavy lifting, but as has been (a) has received the formal consent in writing of the Prime mentioned, transparency is not available in relation to Minister to that person’s candidature, and the ISC. Precisely because of that, we need an elected (b) is not a Minister of the Crown.” Chair. I appreciate that the Prime Minister might find So the Prime Minister, and the security establishment, himself in a position where he had to reject a candidate would have the opportunity through that procedure to in advance of their election, but that is surely a better approve or reject a person who wished to stand for option than going forward with a Committee whose election as Chair of the Committee. That is not a independence from prime ministerial patronage can be perfect situation, but it is one that recognises the point questioned. I appreciate that the Prime Minister might the right hon. Lady makes. have to engage in some politics on this issue, but that is after all his job. Dr Julian Lewis: This is meant to be a helpful intervention. I think my hon. Friend accepts that if we Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Like are to have this Committee that is unlike any other in others, I do not take offence at the argument, but I that it is the only Committee with access to top-secret, think the hon. Gentleman’s representation of the nature classified information, it is not good enough simply to of those who serve on the Committee is a long way say that any Member of this House, however honourable, short of my experience, if I may put it that way. Am I to who happens to be fortunate enough to win an election understand that no matter how well qualified a Member should automatically be appointed Chairman of such a of the House of Lords might be to chair the Committee, Committee. Am I right that my hon. Friend acknowledges the hon. Gentleman’s amendment would preclude that that that would be an impossible situation? from ever happening? 1165 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1166
Steve Baker: Let me take both those points. I do not attempt on their part to mislead us and the information wish to cast any doubt on particular members, but we concerned did not materially affect the conclusions that are in a position where the Committee’s success can be we drew. So the example that the hon. Gentleman uses questioned and we need to deal with that on an institutional to justify his case is, frankly, wrong. basis. Yes, the substance of the amendment would preclude a Member of the other House from being the Steve Baker: Does the right hon. Gentleman not Chairman of the Committee. accept the substance of the court judgments made Amendments 8 and 9 provide for the election of the around the Binyam Mohamed case? Chair from the House of Commons on the same basis as departmental Select Committee Chairs, with the Mr Howarth: There is a whole separate debate to be exception that they would have to have the Prime Minister’s had about that. The hon. Gentleman rightly referred consent to their candidature. The amendments do not earlier to part 2 of the Bill, which deals with closed make provision for the election of members of the material proceedings. There are a number of problems Committee. We think that together these amendments with the Binyam Mohamed case, the main one of which would lead to increased authority and credibility for the concerned the doctrine known as the control principle. Chair, which is not to cast any aspersions on my right That creates serious problems for our relationships with hon. and learned Friend. I feel sure that if he stood for partner agencies, particularly the United States, but if I election, I would be strongly inclined to vote for him. were to go too far down that road, Mr Deputy Speaker The point is to set up the institutions so that they are would pull me up because we have already dealt with beyond reproach. Amendments 10 to 14 are consequential amendments to part 2. The process of considering the on amendments 8 and 9. issues by the Intelligence and Security Committee is not as the hon. Gentleman portrayed it. In conclusion, as I said, the problem is that terrorism and fear of terrorism have led Governments—for On my second point, I shall be brief because in his honourable reasons, I do not doubt—to erode principles intervention the Chair of the Committee cleared that that ordinarily we would regard as sacred principles of up. We have gone a very long way to making the ISC our systems of justice and liberty. I refer in particular to more like a Select Committee, but it never can be closed material procedures, but also to terrorism prevention identical to a Select Committee, as I think the hon. and investigation measures, which have been dealt with Gentleman acknowledged, because of the nature of the on other occasions. In that context, it is vital that material that we have to deal with. As a member of the the House, the wider public and non-governmental Committee, I am content that the appropriate person to organisations are reassured that the security agencies have the final say and to have the recommending powers are answerable to the House, albeit in secret, through a on who is an appropriate person to chair that Committee Chair who enjoys the authority conveyed on him by should be the Prime Minister of the day—not that I do Members. That is why we have tabled the amendments, not trust the House of Commons. As a long-standing and I hope that the House will adopt them. Member of the House, I have every confidence in it, but in this one exceptional circumstance I do not think that that is the appropriate way to do it. Although in democratic Mr George Howarth: I shall try to be brief because I terms the hon. Gentleman’s amendment is well intentioned, know that a great deal of ground needs to be covered in I do not think it is appropriate. these debates. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) has served a useful purpose by ventilating the Steve Baker rose— issue through the amendments. I do not want in any way to detract from that. First, however, he bases the argument on an event that he portrays inaccurately, and Mr Howarth: I will give way, then I intend to conclude. I will say a word about that in a moment. Secondly, in trying to make the role of the Chair subject to the will Steve Baker: Why does the right hon. Gentleman of the whole House, he fails to understand the nature consider it inappropriate to give the Prime Minister of of the composition of such a Committee and the the day the opportunity to approve—or reject—the responsibilities placed on it, and I will also say a few candidacy of particular Members and then allow them words about that. to go forward, with the benefit of that approval, to be elected by the whole House so that they can enjoy the My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul authority of the whole House? My right hon. and Murphy) was the Chair of the Committee when we learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm examined the issue of extraordinary rendition. The way Rifkind), who is no longer in his place, advanced the that the hon. Gentleman portrayed what we did grossly argument that the Prime Minister would be in an invidious misrepresented the process that we went through. First, position, but that does not seem to be what the right as my right hon. Friend has just reminded me, there was hon. Gentleman is concerned about. Why should we a break at one point in our consideration of the Bill at not have prime ministerial approval and then an election? the request of the then Government while further information was forthcoming. Mr Howarth: Because, as I have already said and as Secondly, the hon. Gentleman implied that vital the hon. Gentleman acknowledges, the ISC is a different information had not been put before us. As my right kind of Committee. The people concerned are handling hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen said in an intervention, different information—information that they cannot the information that we did not have at the time did not share—and there are occasions when there is an ongoing change our conclusions at all. We subsequently got that operation, things are moving at a fast pace, it is impossible information and, in further annual reports, we pointed to convene a meeting of the full Committee, and the out that there was a problem with retrieval of the Prime Minister, the heads of agencies and the Foreign information that the agencies held. It was never a deliberate Secretary—whoever is relevant—have to be able to talk 1167 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1168 to somebody. On some occasions the Chair has been the authority, and not just with the agencies, but in the person they speak with, which is entirely appropriate, public sphere, to be able to tell the Prime Minister that but in order for them to be able to do so the Chair must he was dissatisfied with the information provided by a have the confidence of senior Ministers and the heads particular agency, and in that way the two mechanisms of the agencies. I think that is an important principle. come together and authority over the agencies is increased. Otherwise, they will feel inhibited about sharing vital information, which often has to be provided at very short notice, with the Chair at least. Dr Lewis: I am afraid that I do not think that cuts any ice whatsoever, because one cannot be in a position to 1pm be dissatisfied with information that one has not been given and does not know exists. The suggestion, which Mr Carswell: Is not it precisely because the Committee’s is implicit in my hon. Friend’s intervention, that the work is so vital—in some senses it is more important person who was Chair at the time of the particular than almost any other Committee, because it relates to historical episode to which he refers—it was before my fundamental issues of statecraft and national security—that time on the Committee—would have acted in any way there should be at least some modicum of democratic differently had he been elected, and that he did not act accountability, albeit under the system of de facto simply because he felt insufficient legitimacy to do so licence, as identified by my hon. Friend the Member for because he had not been directly elected, is frankly Wycombe (Steve Baker)? It is precisely because that unrealistic. work is so vital that it should not be left to the grandee system to ensure that the people who are meant to be My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve overseeing what happens are awake and alert to the job. Baker) seems to overlook the fact that changes in the Bill will massively strengthen the Committee’s position. Mr Howarth: The hon. Gentleman’s intervention seems The Committee will be able to require information to be to be predicated on the view that the Committee is provided, whereas previously it could only request it. entirely unaccountable, but that is not the case. We That is a huge difference. The position of the House of produce an annual report and other reports during the Commons will be strengthened vis-à-vis the Committee’s course of the year, and they are debated in both this House membership, because previously the House could express and the other place, along with other matters we have an opinion about whether it had approved the people dealt with over the year. Therefore, to that extent there is nominated to be members, but in fact the Prime Minister accountability. In that sense the way the Committee had the final say, whereas now the House will have the operates is already similar to the way Select Committees final say. If the House does not like the cohort of people operate, and it will become more so as a result of the Bill. who have been nominated, it can throw them out and However, I still think that whoever chairs the Committee the Prime Minister will have to nominate someone else. has a special role and that an appropriate veto over an My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe is focusing individual’s promotion to it has to be in the hands of his attention on a really rather narrow issue, because the the Prime Minister of the day. I have no reason to House of Commons will have the final say on who all believe that the current Prime Minister, who is not a the members of the Committee, at least from the House, member of my party, would not perform that role will be, which at the moment is seven of the nine. properly. I also believe that no Prime Minister would Therefore, those members, who will themselves have promote the candidacy of someone they did not think been directly appointed by the House on the nomination would have the confidence of the whole House, not just of the Prime Minister, will then be in a very strong that of the Committee. In that context, I think that the position to choose one of their own number to be accountability is already there. It might be a little bit Chair. opaque in some respects, and in others it might be indirect, but it is there and it is appropriate. I will say one more thing on the matter. I do not think that the world would collapse if my hon. Friend’s Dr Julian Lewis: I would like to confine my remarks amendment were successful, but we are taking a giant to an elaboration of a point that was made very effectively stride in the right direction. One thing I have found by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge through working on the Committee is that it, probably (Dr Huppert), who sadly is not in his place at the more than any other Committee—all Select Committees moment. There seems to be a conflation of two separate like to flatter themselves for being relatively non-partisan—is concepts: whether the election of the Chair directly will totally non-partisan. Even if one wanted to be partisan, aid the Committee’s credibility; and whether it will aid there is no one there to watch one being so, so there the efficacy of its performance. For the life of me, I really is not much point. I can honestly say, as I said in cannot see how the method for electing the Chair would an intervention at an earlier stage of the Bill’s consideration, make any difference whatsoever if, for example, the that if anything unfortunate were to happen to my right Committee was carrying out an investigation and one hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington or other of the security agencies chose not to supply it (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), who chairs the Committee, I with certain information that ought to be supplied. I would almost certainly find myself voting for the Chair, would have thought that the best insurance for an if I had the option of voting for another Committee agency supplying the information that should be supplied member, on a non-party basis. is the consequences of what would happen if it did not do so and the omission came to public attention, as it I do not think that what my hon. Friend the Member inevitably would. for Wycombe is proposing would be earth-shatteringly damaging if it went through, but I really do not think Steve Baker: If the Chair is elected and enjoys the that it is terribly necessary, and I am concerned that authority of the House, apart from any prime ministerial people would put themselves forward and say, “I wish patronage or the appearance of it, he would have the to be in this position,” only to find that they had been 1169 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1170
[Dr Julian Lewis] have people on the Committee who are trusted not only by their colleagues here and in the House of Lords but vetoed, for reasons they could not be told, by the Prime by the three agencies, so that they can ensure that there Minister. That would be a coruscating experience for all is the fullest flow of information of highly sensitive and concerned. secret detail that the Committee can deal with. That is why it is different from other Committees. I think that Paul Murphy: Had I been inclined to support the proposals in the Bill, which have been refined over amendments 8 to 14, my inclination would have dropped the past couple of years, are such that everybody will be dramatically over the past half hour as a consequence able to support them today. of hearing the speech made by the hon. Member for Another matter covered in this group of amendments Wycombe (Steve Baker). I do not think for one second is the way in which the ISC is financed. Under the Bill, that the Committee’s significance depends on the Chair. the Committee is no longer a statutory Committee—it The Chair is an important member of the Committee—the becomes a Committee of Parliament. As a consequence, first among equals. During the two years I chaired the the Government will pay Parliament for the workings Committee, including the period when we considered and expenses of the Committee. I fully support the extraordinary rendition, there was certainly unanimity Government amendment. My hon. Friend the Member among the members, as the hon. Member for New for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) is Forest East (Dr Lewis) has just mentioned, as there is going to discuss the remuneration of the members of now, so the Committee had to come to a consensus. the ISC—more particularly, that of its Chair. Of course, It is preposterous to argue that whether or not the all of us who have held these positions over the years Chair had been elected would have made the slightest have had no remuneration. I welcome and support this difference to the report on rendition or to the Committee’s development and only wish that it were retrospective so eventually recommendations. That issue can be dealt that I could claim two years’ back pay, but that is not with in another place and at another time, although the going to happen. My hon. Friend’s amendment refers hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), who was supposed to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, to move the amendment—we have had an explanation which I hope will support this measure. I also hope that of why he cannot be here—had a particular interest in the Chair of the ISC will get the same remuneration as rendition, but Members of the House will know that is paid to the equivalent Chairs of Select Committees: the Committee dealt with a host of other important in this case, I imagine, the Foreign Affairs, Home Affairs issues affecting this country’s intelligence services. and Defence Committees. The right hon. and learned Twenty years ago, the Committee started on a journey. Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) is extremely Before the law was changed, there was no Committee of hard working in his position, and I believe that this is a this House—in the Commons or the Lords—to deal right and proper thing to do. with the intelligence services. Indeed, just before the inauguration of the Committee, the very existence of Sir Menzies Campbell: I have the good fortune, in the MI6 was denied publicly by the Government. In those interests of brevity, to be able to acknowledge all that 20 years there has been a dramatic shift in how the has been said on both sides of the House, but I would intelligence services have been made more accountable. like to add a thought or two of my own. The latest of those shifts is proposed in this Bill, which This Committee is sui generis; there is nothing else is a very good Bill in that regard. The accountability like it. To seek to bring it within a certain structure runs and transparency that it requires—there is obviously a the risk of ignoring the fact that it has particular limit to how much transparency one can have when characteristics. The Chair of the Committee has particular dealing with the intelligence services—is something that characteristics, too, because by convention the Committee I am sure we all welcome and support. does not talk to the press. When any request is made for I support the proposal that the members of the information from the print or electronic media, the Committee—who, by the way, are themselves subject to proper course of action, which, if I may say so, I have approval by the House of Commons and the House of studiously followed since my election, is to refer the Lords—will decide on who the Chairman of the Committee matter to the Chair of the Committee. The Chair then is to be. The Prime Minister does not do that. The finds himself in a very difficult and sensitive position Prime Minister could have a say in who the members regarding the extent to which he is able to respond to are, but ultimately the House of Commons makes that possibly legitimate inquiries about the work of the decision. Those members will know among themselves Committee, in so far as that is consistent with the fact who they feel to be the best person for the job. We have that he, like all of us, signs the Official Secrets Act. No to bear it in mind that this is not a Select Committee. If member of any other Select Committee in the House of it were, it could be argued that its Chair should be Commons does that. Particular skills are therefore essential elected in the same way as for a Select Committee, but it for the chairmanship of this Committee that are not is not—it is a Joint Committee of both Houses of necessarily required in the chairmanship of other Parliament. The Chair of the Committee, who is usually, Committees. I respectfully suggest that those who are and should be, a Member of this House, reports to the best able to assess those skills are the members of the House annually, and a debate is also held in the other Committee themselves. Of course, they must have place. Having the members themselves choose the Chair confidence in their Chair. of the Committee is a very significant development. The Committee can never be the same as a Select 1.15 pm Committee, because if it were, it would not be doing its The Prime Minister has the ultimate responsibility job. It has to command the trust and the confidence of for security under our conventional constitutional the intelligence services because of the nature of the arrangements. That is why his role must be acknowledged, business they deal with. The only way to do that is to and I believe the Bill does exactly that. 1171 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1172
One of the consequences of amendment 9 is that no my attempts to have debates on M15 and so on in the member of the House of Lords, however well qualified, 1980s, but they were not welcomed, to say the least. In could ever become Chair of the Committee. I do not so far as M15 and M16 are accountable to Parliament, I suggest that that would be a matter of routine, but there thought it only right and proper that we should have the may, in exceptional circumstances, be an individual opportunity now and again to discuss their role. who, by reason of experience, judgment and knowledge, As I stated many years ago, let me make it clear—in would be particularly suited, and it would not make case anyone thinks otherwise—that I am not against the much sense if the Committee were not in a position to security agencies. Even when there was no acute terrorist endorse that individual for chairmanship. threat such as that which we face now, I made the point The amendment contains an inherent contradiction. time and again that every democracy has a right to It begins: protect itself and should have some sort of agency “The Chair is to be a member of the House of Commons against those who want to do harm to it. elected in the same way as the Chairs of Departmental Select What we are discussing today is not, as I have said, a Committees.” matter of integrity, but whether the House should have As I said, this Committee is different in that its Chair an opportunity to elect those who serve on the ISC. I has to sign the Official Secrets Act. The amendment see no reason why we should not do that. I do not like goes on to say that he must have the view that has been expressed, more or less, that the “received the formal consent in writing of the Prime Minister”. security agencies could veto people whom they do not That is not an election that accords with the way in particularly like. which Chairs of departmental Select Committees are elected. Mr George Howarth: I do not think that anybody is advancing the argument that the heads of agencies or Steve Baker rose— the agencies themselves should have a veto. It is merely that they should be able to feel confident in the person Sir Menzies Campbell: I will finish this point, if I who chairs the Committee. The difference is subtle, but may. they are two different things. The amendment contains a contradiction in saying that we must elect the Chair in accordance with general Mr Winnick: When the agencies were put on a statutory circumstances while adding an extra requirement. That basis, however, and appointments duly made, it was would make it a little difficult to maintain the unqualified argued that if certain people were made members the democratic support that the mover of the amendment security agencies would not supply the information sought to persuade us to accept would be part of the requested because they would not have confidence in process. them. I do not believe that it is possible to divide the House into those Members who can be relied on in that Steve Baker: I admire the way in which the right hon. manner and those who cannot. There should be no such and learned Gentleman is attacking my amendment division. Are any of us who have the honour to be and seeking to show a contradiction. We all agree that elected Members of this House fellow travellers of this Committee is different because of its need to access terrorist organisations or willing to betray the trust of classified information, and that is the reason for having our country? I do not accept that Members can be a different provision that does not exist in the case of divided accordingly. other Select Committee Chairs. If the Chair of the ISC and its members were elected by the whole House—that is not going to happen at this Sir Menzies Campbell: First, I had a concession on stage, unfortunately—they would have more authority the peers and now I have a concession on what appears and more credibility. That does not mean that, had the to be an inherent contradiction. Committee been elected in the past, it would have come It seems to me that these provisions meet the necessary to different conclusions. That is not what I am saying; requirements of a Committee that is sui generis and what I am saying is that, instead of appointments, there that they are entirely in accord with the extension of should be elections, as is the case with Select Committees. scrutiny and responsibility that the rest of the Bill provides. Paul Murphy: My hon. Friend is making a speech that he has made for many years and his important Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Let it be views are sincerely held. Does he not accept, however, stated from the beginning—this should be made absolutely that there has been a big change in the system, in that clear—that this is not about the integrity of any member, the appointment of Members of this House to the past or present, of the Intelligence and Security Committee. Committee is subject to the approval of us as Members I am certain that the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve of Parliament? That was never the case before. Baker), who moved the amendment, is under no illusions, because it would be defeated in a vote. I hope there will Mr Winnick: Yes, of course, and that is an improvement. be a vote, but am not sure that there will be. I do not challenge that. Indeed, as I have said, placing I think that this has been a useful debate, however the agencies on a statutory basis was an improvement brief, because we rarely have the opportunity to debate and a step forward from what happened previously. I how ISC members are appointed. My right hon. Friend hope that, when Members on the two Front Benches the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has reminded agree—I do not know when that will happen—the next us that until about 25 years ago there were no statutory step will be elections, which will be far better for credibility, regulations on the security agencies. I remember clearly which is essential, than appointments. 1173 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1174
[Mr Winnick] I think that it is important to have a safeguard and that, with that safeguard in place, an election would be It seems odd that we are debating, in the 21st century, entirely reasonable. whether elections are desirable for Committee positions. The question, as we have heard, is whether it would I would have thought that we passed that stage some make a difference to the stature or efficacy of the time ago. Committee if it were elected rather than appointed. It could make a difference in either direction. As my hon. Paul Murphy: Does my hon. Friend not accept, however, Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) ably that this is a joint Committee and that other such argued, the Committee could enjoy a higher stature as Committees of the House are not elected, but subject to the result of an elected status. One hopes that that will parliamentary approval in exactly the same way? be the case in due course. Some Members have raised the fear that it would have a lower status. They argue Mr Winnick: Yes, I do accept that, but it would be that potential members and Chairs of the Committee useful if Commons members of the Committee were might not enjoy the confidence of the security services elected. What they do in the other place is entirely a in particular and that, therefore, the Committee would matter for them. function less well. As I said at the beginning, this is a useful debate that Again, I do not believe that to be the case. I think that gives a minority of us the opportunity to express our fundamentally the House is capable of reaching that views. I hope that, in due course and over the years very serious conclusion, making that judgment and ahead, the House of Commons will make the sort of choosing somebody on the basis that they would be the decision on this matter that some of use would like to right person to serve as Chairman. I join those of my see. colleagues who have fallen over themselves to stress that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), who sadly has had I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Walsall to go on travels elsewhere, is an admirable Chairman. I North (Mr Winnick). I am sure I have agreed with him would be delighted not only to vote for him, but to on previous occasions, but I am not sure on what issues. propose him as Chairman. He would be an obvious I agree with the thrust of his remarks. Like him, I start choice. by saying that I have the highest regard for those of our colleagues who currently serve on the Intelligence and 1.30 pm Security Committee and those who have done so in the past. It is not my view that we would get better people Paul Murphy: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s to serve on the Committee if we elected them, but argument, but I am convinced that we are not getting to neither do I think we would get worse people. grips with the difference between Joint Committees and Select Committees. The ISC is a Joint Committee, like Having been elected by colleagues to serve as a member the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and is appointed. of the Wright Committee on Reform of the House of Is it not ironic that an unappointed Committee should Commons during the previous Parliament, and given have asked for another Committee to be elected, even that one of our recommendations has been discussed, I though it had the same status? want to make a brief contribution to this debate. Of course, we made other important recommendations, Mr Brady: The right hon. Gentleman makes a valuable including the introduction of elections for Select point. We are engaged in a process here. There has been Committees. I hear what other Members have said a considerable amount of reform. The hon. Member for about this being a different type of Committee that is Walsall North (Mr Winnick) alluded to the history: not entirely analogous to Select Committees, but when 25 years ago there was no oversight, then we got an we considered our proposals we heard all the same oversight Committee and now we have a proposal to arguments—that it would lead to frivolous appointments, allow a parliamentary veto of its membership. Like that the House would behave in a partisan way in him, I find it hard to believe that this is the last stage in choosing Select Committee Chairs or members, and that journey, and I suspect that 25 years from now we that the House of Commons could not be relied on to might have different arrangements in the other place do this in a reasonable, rational way. and be looking at a completely different constitutional Although I did not realise at the time that my election arrangement, which Joint Committees will have to reflect. as chairman of the 1922 committee meant that I would For me—I cannot speak for the other members of the be responsible for conducting the elections of Conservative then Committee on Reform of the House of Commons— members to Select Committees—I inadvertently increased the fundamental point is not about the ISC, which I my work load considerably as a result—I think, three suspect would have much the same membership, would years on, that those elections have been a great success. behave in much the same way and, like now, would have The Chairmen are good people who have been elected a high status and be held in high regard by the House. for the right reasons, which demonstrates that we have Fundamentally, this is an argument about the House of made a wise change. Commons and whether we have the self-confidence to We reflected long and hard on this recommendation believe that we should be taken seriously as a Parliament for a particularly important and sensitive Committee, and a representative Chamber and whether we are and that is why we also recommended a safeguard that prepared to take on this enormous responsibility. Just it should not be possible for somebody to be a candidate as the election of Select Committee Chairmen and for election as Chairman of the ISC if they did not members has enhanced the House, I believe that eventually enjoy the confidence of the Prime Minister. I am entirely this next step will also enhance it. It will prove us open to other suggestions as to how it could be done. capable of making that responsible judgment and ensuring 1175 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1176 we have a Committee overseeing these vital and sensitive first with the fundamental issue about the status of the matters that is chosen democratically, but which is Committee. The Bill provides for a Committee of capable of enjoying the respect of the Government, the Parliament, with the rules for its operation and procedure security services and the whole country. That could be laid down in statute. Hon. Members will know that done in a slightly more open and democratic way. Select Committees are not created by statute, but formed by a resolution of the House and governed through Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I Standing Orders. I recently reread the chapter in the plan to speak to amendments 8 to 14, which deal with book by the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) the election of the ISC Chairman, and then Government about the ISC and what reforms were needed. Of course, amendment 58, which deals with the broad proposals he referenced the Wright Committee recommendations for the financing and resources required by the ISC. about the ISC’s becoming a Select Committee and After that, I shall speak to amendment 58(a), which having an elected Chair, just like other Select Committees. stands in my name and that of my right hon. Friend the The problem is, however, that in the Bill the Government shadow Home Secretary and would make provision for are establishing the ISC as a Committee of Parliament, payment to members of the ISC. not a Select Committee. We are, then, in a very different It has been helpful having this debate and hearing the place from the established Select Committee structures. experiences of past and serving members of the ISC I note the comments of the hon. Member for Wycombe and other hon. Members who have taken an interest in (Steve Baker), but amendment 8 would give the ISC the the area for many years. It was important to hear the partial look of a Select Committee, when it actually is historical context and the explanation of why we are in not a Select Committee. I also note that setting out in a this position. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bill how the Commons should elect a Chair is problematical, Torfaen (Paul Murphy) explained that when the ISC because the House is governed by Standing Orders. Will was set up in 1994 it represented a huge change in the the Minister say whether it is in order to put in a Bill a relationship between Parliament and the security services mechanism for how the House should operate? and that we have been on a journey ever since—this is My second problem with the amendment, which has part of that journey. It was also interesting to hear what been touched on by right hon. and hon. Members, is my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North that it would require the Prime Minister to give written (Mr Winnick) said about the fight to get the ISC set up. consent to any Member wishing to stand as Chair. As It is important that we understand the history and why has been recognised, that does not happen with any we are in this position, but we must also recognise the other candidate for a Select Committee position, although important work that the ISC does, and I pay tribute to it goes some way to recognising the special nature of the all its members, who put an enormous amount of time Committee. It would present lots of problems, however, and effort into their roles. It is vital that the public have as it would mean that the Prime Minister could decide confidence in the security services, and that demands not to endorse a candidate—an elected MP—as not confidence in their oversight. suitable for a role, which would put the Prime Minister In our debates in the other place and here in Committee, in a difficult position. I am not sure it is one we want to there were extensive exchanges between the Government move to. and the Opposition about how to strengthen the role of the ISC. Since inception, the ISC has been composed of Sir Menzies Campbell: Let us imagine that, say, half a Members of Parliament, yet because of its unique dozen people wanted to apply. Has the hon. Lady nature, it has often been portrayed more like a component considered what would happen if the Prime Minister of the Executive, not least because its secretariat is took the view that only one of them was suitable? What provided by the Cabinet Office. The Government have would happen to the element of choice lying behind the now finally decided, however, formally to constitute the views expressed today? ISC as a Committee of Parliament. Changing its name to the “Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament” Diana Johnson: The right hon. and learned Gentleman emphasises not only that the ISC is composed of highlights yet another problem with supporting parliamentarians, but that they are doing the work of amendment 9 at this stage. He is right that it would take Parliament while serving on the ISC. away the element of choice if only one candidate was In Committee, we debated whether to move to a full endorsed. Select Committee status for the ISC, and there was lengthy debate about what it would mean and how it Steve Baker: That is one of the more ingenious arguments would operate. I think there was clear recognition from for not having an election. It seems to me more than both sides of the House that the special nature of the likely that the vast majority of Members of this House role of the ISC and the sensitive and secret information would meet the Prime Minister’s basic requirements for it routinely dealt with made its constitution worthy of being suitable to keep state secrets. I cannot accept that separate and special consideration. Many parliamentarians argument. It seems to be an ingenious way of saying are calling for reform to be hastened. I would like to set that democracy is not appropriate. out the Opposition’s view. My right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary has called for the ISC to Diana Johnson: Nobody is saying that democracy is become a Select Committee. We recognise that, were not appropriate. We are just highlighting some of the that to happen and because of the special nature of its issues with the amendments that have been tabled. work, we would have to consider the most appropriate The basic problem that the Opposition have with the way of appointing a Chair. hon. Gentleman’s amendments is that they put the cart We think that amendment 8 gets the matter the before the horse. The first issue that needs to be addressed wrong way around: it would deal with the election or is the status of the Committee. We should then decide appointment of the Chair, whereas we need to deal how to elect or appoint a Chair to that Committee. 1177 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1178
Mr George Howarth: My hon. Friend is making a that is welcomed by everyone? In Committee, the very good case, so I hesitate to interrupt her further. Opposition were forceful in saying that if we are to have Does she accept that there is a world of difference increased scrutiny, we need the necessary resources to between the Prime Minister saying, “I think this is a do the job. The Opposition talked about a figure of suitable person to be the Chair of the Committee” £2 million. The Government’s impact assessment has a before Parliament endorses them, and Parliament electing figure of £1.3 million. There is no agreement on resourcing, somebody and the Prime Minister then having to say, “I and without resourcing, it will be impossible to do the don’t think this is a suitable person”? Those two positions job that the Government want us to do. are entirely different. She is right about that.
Diana Johnson: My right hon. Friend makes that 1.45 pm point very clearly. I will return to my argument, because Diana Johnson: My right hon. Friend raises an important I am conscious that other Members wish to speak about point to which I hope the Minister will respond. Parliament later proposals. is trying to reduce its costs by 25% over the course of The Opposition are of course sympathetic to attempts this Parliament. I wonder whether the money that is to widen accountability and open the ISC as much as being transferred to Parliament will be ring-fenced for possible. In Committee, we supported a number of the work of the ISC and whether it will be expected to amendments to do just that. We tabled amendments so make any savings out of that budget. that we could consider whether an Opposition Member Will the Minister also deal with the issue of the staff should always chair the Committee, as with the Public who will be transferred to support the new Committee? Accounts Committee, and whether there should be a Am I right to assume that TUPE will apply? What majority of MPs—elected representatives—on the ISC. discussions has he had with the Clerk of the House about this matter? Has he written to the Clerk of the Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I have some House formally requesting that he starts to make experience of that point. I was Chairman of the Public preparations for such an undertaking? Accounts Committee for nine years. The Chair of that On the accommodation for the Committee, there are Committee is the sole auditor of the accounts of the clearly security issues that need to be considered. Does security services, so he sees in great detail all the accounts the Minister have any further information about where of the security services. He is not vetted by anybody, he envisages the Committee being accommodated? Will including the Prime Minister. He is elected by all Members any separate secure accommodation have to be provided? of the House. Nobody has ever suggested that an elected or appointed Chair of the Public Accounts Committee Finally, amendment (a) to amendment 58 would provide is a threat to national security, so this is a fuss about for the payment of members of the ISC. It follows on nothing. from other amendments that the Opposition have tabled to try to strengthen the role of the ISC within Parliament. Diana Johnson: The hon. Gentleman speaks with great The role of chairing the ISC will be every bit as important experience as the former Chair of the Public Accounts and time-consuming as chairing any other parliamentary Committee. However, the Chair of the Intelligence and Committee. We therefore feel that it should be recognised Security Committee deals with far more than just the in the same way. finances of the security agencies, so it is not quite the At present, the ISC is a statutory body funded by the same. Cabinet Office. When the responsibility for funding the ISC transfers to Parliament, the responsibility for any Dr Julian Lewis: On that point, the hon. Lady’s response payment to the Chair will also be a matter for Parliament. is correct. The people who advise the Intelligence and Given what I have said about the procedures of the Security Committee on the finances of the security and House, I appreciate that that will probably have to be intelligence services leave the meetings when other matters— dealt with through Standing Orders rather than statute. namely, classified information—are under discussion. In that case, I will be happy not to press amendment (a). I am sure that the Minister will be able to explain the Diana Johnson: That information is very helpful. funding situation. I have explained why the Opposition will not support I will just explain why amendment (a) refers to all amendment 8. Government amendment 58 relates to members of the Committee and not to the Chair. Again, the money, staff, accommodation and other resources the Minister might be able to help me on this point if that will be made available to Parliament for the new there has been any progress. The amendment covers Committee. I wonder whether the Minister can help me, Members of the House of Lords as well because, unlike because I am slightly confused about the intention of Members of the House of Commons, they do not get a the Government with respect to the support that will be flat salary, but receive an attendance allowance. As I provided to the ISC. In his response, will he set out how understand it, they do not receive that allowance for he expects the secretariat to the ISC to be provided? In attending the ISC on days when the Lords is not sitting. Committee, we discussed a proposal suggested by the membership of the ISC for a non-departmental public Mr George Howarth: I am sure that the Minister will body to be established to provide secretarial support. correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that That does not appear to be what the Government are that problem for Members of the House of Lords doing. Will he therefore explain what will happen? sitting on the Committee has been resolved within the procedures of the House of Lords. Hazel Blears: Does my hon. Friend agree that there is consensus across the House that the Bill will strengthen Diana Johnson: I am grateful if that is the case. If the the scrutiny of our secret intelligence services and that Minister could explain that, it would be helpful. 1179 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1180
Amendment (a) was also drafted to include all members Mr Clarke: I encounter many people making bids for of the Committee in case it is felt appropriate in the resources for their particular, extremely important, activities. future to make payments to members of Select Committees My right hon. Friends at the Treasury are receiving a alongside the payments that are made to Chairs. very large number of these bids all the time. I have had some experience of public spending, and I can tell the Minister without Portfolio (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Before House that it is not wise to engage in negotiations dealing with Government amendment 58, which provides across the Floor of the House—it is certainly not wise the Government with the necessary powers to make a for a non-Treasury Minister to do so. For this purpose, financial contribution to the Committee, I will add a in this debate, given those present, I think we can agree few words to the interesting and lively debate that we that it is the Government’s intention that this Committee have had on the election of the Chair. I will not repeat should be properly resourced to do its job, which is why every argument. My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe we are taking a power to supplement Parliament’s financing (Steve Baker) put the case robustly and had some pretty of the Committee. Obviously, the Government have the strong support. However, every member of the ISC who right to query and test the figures that are put to them, is here has responded and he has had to take on some of and there are ways in which this can eventually be the more formidable Members on both sides of the negotiated. House. He is also facing the opposition of all three of the major parties. Dr Julian Lewis rose— I assure him that this is not an establishment stitch- Mr Clarke: We might be getting bogged down in a up—quite the reverse. Perhaps the best way of illustrating public spending round, and we have other matters to that is by putting everything in the context of what we move on to. are trying to do in this part of the Bill. We are making a remarkable advance in strengthening the powers of this Dr Lewis: I hope not to get bogged down. I wish to Committee to hold our security and intelligence services assist our Front-Bench team by pointing out that the to account. For 20 years the Committee has steadily Intelligence and Security Committee has eight staff, contributed on that front, and we are marching forward whereas the detainee inquiry, which looked at only one considerably in the Bill. This part of it is just as important issue, had 14 staff and the Committee on Standards in as the part we debated on Monday, as we are stepping Public Life has 12 staff. As the right hon. Member for towards making our security services more accountable Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) pointed out, the to Parliament. We are enabling judges, in exceptional Government’s own impact assessment suggested that to cases, to take all the evidence into account and make an do what is being required of us we would need a budget adjudication when allegations are made by individuals; of £1.3 million, which compares with the existing budget and we are committing to holding judicial inquiries of £750,000. At the moment only £850,000 is being when worrying circumstances occur—subject, of course, offered, and if the gap is not bridged, this whole reform to those inquiries being able to get under way once will be a waste of time. police investigations have been properly completed. These amendments are important, and they are being Mr Clarke: I can say only that I, like my right hon. proposed in the context of a situation where all parties and hon. Friends, am fully aware of the Committee’s agree that they want this Committee to be a parliamentary views on the amount of funding that it will require. Yet Committee and no longer a creature of the Government. again, I take note of my hon. Friend’s points on the We therefore wish to give it more resources and the matter, but I repeat that there is not much point in my structure that enables it to do an even better job. The standing here carrying out a negotiation with him or only thing that distinguishes the Committee from a any other member of the Committee about the figure Joint Committee or Select Committee of this House is we arrive at. As someone who has been at the Treasury, this problem of the extremely sensitive nature of some I think that the Government must combine providing of the information that it sees. Only where it is unavoidable the right resources, which are undoubtedly going to be are we departing from the normal process of allowing more than the Committee has had in the past, with the House of Commons to have a powerful Committee doing a bit of negotiating about what is the necessary of its own choosing and to exhort it to do its job and cost. Report stage is not the place to resolve the final report back properly on what is and is not happening in figure. this area. Similarly, the status and nature of the Committee will not be resolved finally by statute or by debate on the Hazel Blears: I think we are all agreed that strengthening Floor of the House. A long discussion has been going the scrutiny of the Secret Intelligence Service is an on to make sure that the Committee has the right status important and welcome step forward. However, I am and structure to do its job effectively, and I think we are sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would very near to reaching a successful agreement between agree that simply saying that we want to increase scrutiny the Government, the Opposition, the House authorities is not enough. Instead of having the right to request in both Houses of Parliament and the current members information we are moving to a situation where we of the Intelligence and Security Committee on what its would be able to require it. We need additional investigators status should be. I am told that we still have to have and that will require a substantial increase in the resources further discussions with the House of Commons available to the Committee. Simply saying that we want Commission and the House Committee in the House of increased scrutiny is not enough. I know he understands Lords, but I think everybody is becoming satisfied that that, so will he tell us now that we will be getting an we are resolving that matter. We are also resolving the increase in resources to enable us to do the job he wants question of the accommodation, which probably will us to do? have to be on the Government’s estate rather than the 1181 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1182
[Mr Kenneth Clarke] prime ministerial veto, is that a veto will be difficult to exercise. We are on much safer ground if the Prime parliamentary estate, for security reasons. I will go into Minister nominates people and invites Parliament to more details if hon. Members wish, but I realise that we elect them, as we have proposed, rather than letting still have quite a lot of the Bill to deal with. Unless hon. people put themselves forward and the Prime Minister Members are particularly interested in knowing the moving in and vetoing an individual, which unfortunately precise current status of these discussions, I hope I may could occur. take it that the House is reasonably satisfied that all During my time in the House I have known more parties are going to reach a satisfactory conclusion. I than one person—including Members from both sides assure the House that the Government have been anxious of the House and in one case a personal friend from my throughout to make this Committee powerful, properly party—who could not have been appointed to this resourced and as much of a parliamentary body—a Committee and would have been vetoed. That would body that is accountable and resembles the Select not always have been for political reasons; I suspect that Committees of the House in every way possible—as it sometimes the security agencies knew something about can be. I think that soon this will all be resolved. those people’s history or private lives that would have I shall now deal with amendment (a), tabled by the made them totally unsuitable to sit on the Committee. I hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana need only hint at such things to show why we cannot Johnson), although she anticipated my reply. Government just let the House of Commons elect absolutely anybody, amendment 58 is required in order to give us the necessary subject to prime ministerial veto. authority to make the financial contributions that we are going to be arguing about. Amendment (a) seeks to Steve Baker: It is clear from the amendment that we oblige the Government—or at least expressly to empower do not seek to allow the House of Commons to elect them—to make an additional amount available for the anybody, and it is not a veto but an opportunity for the payment of Committee members. That is not necessary, Prime Minister to approve candidates. Such a mechanism nor, in my opinion and that of the Government, is it could take place in private; it would not need to be all wise to start putting the matter of the payment of members over the front pages that someone had been turned of Select Committees or parliamentary Committees down. The process could be done beforehand and the into statute, or implicating the Government directly in candidate would just have to obtain formal written that. The payment of members of this Committee, the consent for them to stand. Chairman of this Committee and members of Select Committees is a matter for the House of Commons, the Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend is confident that if someone House of Lords and the Independent Parliamentary starts campaigning and positioning himself or herself Standards Authority—from every point of view, it is for this job, but then suddenly stops campaigning because best left there. Where the Government have to initiate the Prime Minister puts an end to it, it will all remain all this, it is a feature of all Governments, of all political secret and no one will accuse the Prime Minister of complexions, that they can get very politically embarrassed political bias—whereas actually they will, and everybody on questions about the remuneration of any Member of will realise that something about the candidate has either House. So a process that leaves the matter with caused the agencies successfully to blackball him or her. IPSA and the House of Commons is preferable to the We cannot agree to that. Some of the Members I am hon. Lady’s amendment. talking about have served in government and would Finally, I shall touch on the spirit of political debate have been perfectly suitable to be Chair of the Health or we have had on the question of whether the Chairman Education Committees, but partly because of the job I should be elected, and again I must say that the Wright was once in, I knew that I would not have put them on Committee produced a splendid report. My hon. Friend this particular Select Committee and would have wanted the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) first proposed the Prime Minister to stop that appointment. I do not this, but he is not able to be here because he is serving think there is an answer to that. on his Banking Commission, as we all realise. We The system has been devised in such a way because worked together, when we were in opposition, with my Members on both sides of the House, and current right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire members of the Committee, have done their best to (Sir George Young), who is now the Government Chief make this as democratic and parliamentary as we possibly Whip, on a thing called the democracy taskforce, advocating can. The Wright Committee has transformed things in the election of Chairman of Select Committees and this House. The Government have introduced the election producing proposals that were remarkably close to those of Select Committees and they are being made more of the Wright Committee. I certainly start on the same powerful. Alongside that reform, we are making the basis as my colleagues who have been drawn to this part Intelligence and Security Committee far more parliamentary of the debate, but we have heard all the arguments why, and powerful. The fact that there is a comparatively in this particular case, the proposal does not work. We detailed difference in the way that Parliament votes for are already making the whole thing approved by Parliament. the Committee members and how the Chair is elected No longer will the Prime Minister appoint the Chairman; does not undermine the policy and the Bill. the Chairman will be elected by those who know—or will know—him best: members of the ISC. I hope I have explained why everybody involved, including those on the Opposition Front Benches and my allies in the Liberal Democrat party, have been 2pm driven to the conclusion that this is the best way of One difficult hurdle that cannot be overcome by resolving the problem and moving to a decent amount those who think such a system is not good enough and of parliamentary democracy, without jeopardising our want the whole House to elect the Chairman, subject to national interest. I therefore hope I can persuade my 1183 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1184 hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe to withdraw the ‘Protection for proceedings of the ISC amendment and persuade the House to give the 6 No part of the proceedings of the ISC, including evidence Government power to continue negotiating these finances given to the ISC may be used in any civil, criminal or disciplinary by accepting amendment 58. proceedings, except in the case of evidence given in bad faith.’. Government amendments 61, 62 and 55 Steve Baker: Not for the first time I have made Amendment 71, in clause 2, page 2, line 29, at end common cause with a well-known Member from the insert— left of the Labour party, and I am grateful that on this ‘(4A) Subsections (3) and (4) do not apply where a plausible occasion I have done that for the first time with the hon. claim has been made by or on behalf of an individual to the ISC Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). I was also that the Security Service, the Secret Intelligence Service or the grateful for the support from my hon. Friend the Member Government Communications Headquarters has disseminated for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady), who brings any information to any recipient concerning any person that to bear his experience from the Wright Committee. appears to be— Some of the arguments against these elections have (a) materially false; and been somewhat ingenious, and I shall treasure Hansard (b) harmful to the person defamed. tomorrow when I look at the remarks of the right hon. (4B) In any case where subsection (4A) applies, the ISC shall and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies fully and expeditiously investigate the claim and, where the claim Campbell), who I think brilliantly set out the advantages appears to be well founded, shall ensure that the misinformation of appointment over democracy. I shall look at that is expeditiously corrected.’. with some joy. We have all understood what the Bill Amendment 74, page 2, line 29, at end insert— provides; it certainly takes us forward although, as I ‘(4A) The ISC shall consider the proposed appointment of the have said, I would prefer the Chair to be elected in the following, including by questioning the prospective appointee at way that I outlined. I am glad we have held this debate a meeting of the ISC— and aired the issue. (a) the Head of the Security Service; The Opposition have said that this provision puts the (b) the Head of the Secret Intelligence Service; cart before the horse, but they did acknowledge the (c) the Head of the Government Communications context, which is crucial. We have seen encroachments Headquarters; and on the principles of liberty and justice, which many of (d) such other persons as the Prime Minister may direct. us thought we were sworn to defend. However, in the (4B) The ISC may consider the appropriateness of holding view of this Government, and the previous Government, hearings considering each prospective appointee’s proposed such measures have proven necessary to protect the appointment in public.’. public, and we are where we are. With that in mind, and Government amendments 63 and 64. having listened to both Front-Bench speakers, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. James Brokenshire: After that interesting debate about Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. the basis for the important reforms that are taking place to strengthen the scrutiny, and perhaps some of the Schedule 1 principles behind measures in the Bill relating to the parliamentary ISC, we will now consider a number of amendments that touch on procedural matters relating THE INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY COMMITTEE OF to the functions and operation of the ISC. I apologise PARLIAMENT to the House in advance that I will touch on a range of James Brokenshire: I beg to move amendment 56, in different points. I know that a number of other amendments schedule 1, page 16, line 31, leave out ‘(6)’ and insert ‘(5)’. have been grouped for this debate, so I will touch briefly on those and then reflect on points made in the debate. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it If time allows, I hope to respond to any further points will be convenient to discuss the following: that may arise. Government amendment 57 Amendments 56 and 57 were originally tabled on Report in the other place and Lord Taylor highlighted Amendment 75, page 17, line 38, leave out from ‘ISC’ that one possible consequence of the change in the Bill to end of line 43. to refer to the Intelligence and Security Committee “of Amendment 73, page 18, line 34, leave out from Parliament” could be that the ISC would have the ‘private’ to end of line 3 on page 19 and insert ‘from a power to take evidence on oath. However, further analysis person subject to the Official Secrets Act 1989. concluded that the consequence of changing the ISC to ‘(2) The ISC may only publish or disclose the information— a statutory Committee of Parliament would be that the (a) by way of a report under section 3, ISC may, in future, take evidence on oath. Our view was (b) if the ISC and the Prime Minister are satisfied that that, when taken together, the Parliamentary Witnesses publication or disclosure would not be prejudicial to Oaths Act 1871, which concerns the power of Committees the continued discharge of the functions of the Security of the House of Commons to administer oaths, and its Service, the Secret Intelligence Service, the Government Lords equivalent, the Parliamentary Witnesses Act 1858, Communications Headquarters or any person carrying would give the ISC the authority to administer oaths. out activities falling within section 2(2), or However, the House services raised a concern with (c) if publication or disclosure is necessary for the ISC to the Government about that provision and disagreed comply with any enactment or rule of law.’. with our analysis that the change to “of Parliament” Government amendments 59 and 60 would give the ISC the authority to take evidence on Amendment 76, page 19, leave out from line 4 to end oath. They believe that the Bill should contain an of line 7 and add— express power for the ISC to take such evidence. Following 1185 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1186
[James Brokenshire] have some unintended consequences. In its current form, the amendment would widen the net in a way that I further discussions in response to that point, and with suspect the ISC had not anticipated. the intent of putting this issue beyond doubt, we have I shall return to the principle after I have gone decided to address the concern of the parliamentary through some of the technical issues that have been authorities by tabling amendment 57, which puts the identified. The amendment refers to information received ISC’s power to take evidence on oath beyond doubt. by the ISC The amendment makes it unnecessary to specify in “from a person subject to the Official Secrets Act 1989.” the Bill who has the power to administer oaths on While I appreciate the intention behind the amendment, behalf of the ISC, as there is no longer any need to that phrase suggests that the prohibition should apply displace the provision in the relevant statutory authorities. to any person inside or outside Government who had Amendment 56 makes procedure in relation to the ISC ever known, or been in a position to know, any classified hearing evidence on oath a matter for the ISC to determine, information. Unfortunately, the effect of the amendment pursuant to paragraph 2(1) of schedule 1. would be slightly different. The Official Secrets Act 1989 contains prohibitions of general application, most notably An amendment was agreed in Committee that places in section 5, and it extends to the whole UK. It even restrictions on the ISC’s ability to publish material that apparently covers some acts done outside the UK by it receives in connection with the exercise of its functions, British citizens or Crown servants. It would therefore other than through its reports. We had a useful debate cover information beyond the purview and structure in Committee, which highlighted some of the issues and anticipated. It would cover all information supplied by challenges and recognised the need for safeguards to a person who has, at any time, been in a position to have ensure that sensitive material was not inadvertently access to classified information. Information supplied disclosed, as well as the need for the ISC to be able to to the ISC by such a person will be covered by the fulfil its duties. prohibition whether or not it is in fact classified information, The amendment addresses a consequence of the ISC and whether or not it even came to that person in being a statutory Committee of Parliament. In that connection with the role in which they had or could context, the ISC will have a general power to publish have had access to classified information. information, which will sit alongside its express power to publish reports to Parliament. Absent the restriction, 2.15 pm which is now contained in paragraph 5 of schedule 1 to Dr Julian Lewis: I accept the validity of what my hon. the Bill, under that general power the ISC would have Friend says, but the problem is that in that formulation been able to publish evidence it has received other than the ISC was trying to do away with a similar problem through its reports to Parliament. Following concerns with the Government’s wording, which suggests that all raised by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest information that the ISC receives in private is subject to East (Dr Lewis), I was able to provide assurance that it these restrictions. The whole point of what we are was not the Government’s intention that the amendment trying to say is that it should only apply to classified or would inhibit or limit some of the existing practices of sensitive information that we receive in private. Other the ISC, and made a commitment to look at the language information that we receive in private, such as from to see whether there was any way of giving further victims of the 7/7 bombing, should not be restricted in assurance. I have considered that matter and, as a that way. Even though my hon. Friend makes a valid consequence, we have tabled amendment 60. point against the wording that we have offered, the Amendment 60 would provide a further gateway same point still applies to the Government’s wording. allowing publication or disclosure where the Prime Minister and the ISC agree that this would not cause prejudice to James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend, in his customary the functions of the agencies or other Government way, has highlighted the genuine challenges that both security and intelligence bodies. This is the same criterion the Government and ISC members have had in seeking that is used in clause 3(4) of the Bill which allows the to frame legislation, which can be a challenging mechanism Prime Minister, after consultation with the ISC, to within which to express matters effectively. He rightly require that the ISC must exclude a matter from any points out the evidence given by the families of the report to Parliament. victims of 7/7 and those who were sadly caught up in that terrible event. There have also been discussions of The consequence of amendment 60 therefore would the evidence taken from communication service providers be that the ISC would be able to publish informally—for during the ISC’s recent inquiry into communications example, in an open letter—any information which, data, including whether the information provided was ultimately, it would be permitted to include in its reports sensitive. It is a challenge at times to analyse evidence to Parliament. As I have said, the criteria are exactly the from third parties to decide whether evidence is sensitive same. I recognise the concern to ensure that the existing and thus not suitable for disclosure. Sometimes that is arrangements for the ISC and the steps that it takes are clear, but sometimes it is not. maintained, and that is in part reflected in amendment 73, tabled by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member Hazel Blears: I am following the Minister’s argument for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) with the support—I closely, and I acknowledge that it is difficult to get the believe—of the existing members of the ISC. While right legislative framework for this area. I wish to I am sympathetic to the intentions, and have had reinforce the point made by the hon. Member for New several discussions with my right hon. and learned Forest East (Dr Lewis) that part of the change we are Friend to work out some suitable language to address seeking to achieve is to make the Committee more the issues, our view of amendment 73 is that it would independent. The consequence of the provision that all 1187 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1188 information in private will be covered means that the the Government’s intention to try and stop the ISC decisions can be made by the Government rather than from continuing to do things in the way that it does at the Committee. We must have a clear delineation of the moment as a consequence of the changes contemplated information that belongs to the Committee, which can in the Bill, and I am content to reflect on providing then decide what to do with that information. No further clarity in the memorandum of understanding to matter how hard this is, I hope that the Minister will be address some of those technical points. We have a creative and ingenious enough to provide clarity. Such framework in the legislation. While we may have found information is not the Government’s information: it is it challenging to get the precise legal wording right for for the Committee to decide. an amendment because of those technical areas, I am willing to reflect on how we can seek to encapsulate the James Brokenshire: I hear the point that the right existing arrangements, under which the ISC conducts hon. Lady makes. The intent of the changes in the Bill is its affairs, in the memorandum of understanding. to underline the greater scrutiny and the import of the These exchanges highlight some of the difficulties in ISC as a Committee of Parliament in fulfilling its work, putting changes in the Bill in a rigid way. In some ways, and therefore ensuring that it has an appropriate mechanism because of the nature of the evidence, they probably for the publication of information relating to its lend themselves to being addressed more effectively in deliberations. As we have already discussed, sometimes the memorandum of understanding. If it will help the there are challenges on evidence given, perhaps in private, House, I am happy to give that commitment on how we and we had some useful debates in Committee on may best address those challenges in greater detail in public hearings. We hope that we will be able to work the memorandum of understanding. I hope right hon. with the newly formed ISC to have public evidence and hon. Members will accept the spirit in which that hearings for some evidence that has previously always commitment is given. been held in private. I acknowledge that most evidence would probably still continue to be heard in private Sir Menzies Campbell: In the absence of my right because of the very nature of the materials provided, hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, but we want to look at ways to make hearings more may I say how grateful the Committee is for the attitude public to show the important scrutiny that is provided displayed by the Minister? We await the resolution with by the ISC, and thus to enhance visibility, transparency interest. We have a common intention; it is just a and confidence in the scrutiny role. question of making sure we frame it in a way that Sir Menzies Campbell: Perhaps I might endorse the satisfies all other criteria. Minister’s enthusiasm for the public hearings, which would constitute a complete departure from what has James Brokenshire: I understand. I look forward to previously been the case and provide an interesting continuing informal discussions, and hope that agreement opportunity for that greater degree of public interest on the memorandum of understanding on the operations and public understanding. My right hon. and learned of the ISC in Parliament will be resolved quickly. Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) Government amendment 59 is a technical, clarificatory has had to leave because of another commitment, but it amendment that makes clear how paragraph 5(2) of is my understanding that he has been in informal discussions schedule 1 will operate. The insertion of the word with the Minister about the issues raised by amendment 73. “otherwise” puts beyond doubt certain technical issues Am I right in understanding that it is possible for those that have been highlighted, so I will not take up the discussions to continue and that consideration may be House’s time and go through it in detail. given in another place to an amendment that would On Government amendments 61, 62 and amendment 76, satisfy both the Government and the Committee? in Committee, a Government amendment was agreed to provide protection to witnesses before the ISC. It will James Brokenshire: Informal discussions have taken prevent evidence given by a witness before the ISC from place to work through the detailed and technical issues being used against them in any criminal, civil or disciplinary that need proper consideration and ensure we strike the proceedings, unless it was given in bad faith. The provision, right balance. I welcome that dialogue. Before I return now in paragraph 6 of schedule 1, replicates an important to the substance of my right hon. and learned Friend’s part of the protection that witnesses before a Select point and respond formally, I will take an intervention Committee would have, by virtue of a Select Committee’s from my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London proceedings being subject to parliamentary privilege. In and Westminster (Mark Field). doing so, that will encourage witnesses appearing before Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): the ISC to be full and frank in the evidence that they I hope the Minister will recognise that the concern provide. It is perhaps worth stressing that witnesses expressed by all of us as members of the Intelligence before the ISC currently enjoy no special protections and Security Committee is that the terms of the Bill are with regard to the subsequent use of their evidence. far too broad. If the Government remain unwilling to The amendment made in Committee was therefore go along with amendment 73, will he give some an important change to ensure that the ISC is able to consideration to these issues being dealt with in detail in perform its oversight function even more effectively, the memorandum of understanding? It may be that because the fuller and more candid the evidence the ISC some of the technical difficulties to which he referred receives, the more effective it is likely to be in supervising would be more appropriately dealt with in that forum. the security and intelligence community. During the debate in Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for James Brokenshire: I thank my hon. Friend for his New Forest East and the hon. Member for Kingston comments. There is scope to deal with this further in the upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) questioned whether memorandum of understanding. I reiterate that it is not the protection went far enough. In response, I made a 1189 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1190
[James Brokenshire] by the authorities and thereby avoiding miscarriages of justice, the existing protection secures the aims of article 6, commitment to reflect carefully on the points that were whereas we judge that amendment 76 would run into made. I have considered whether further protection challenges and issues in that way. could be given to witnesses’ evidence, preventing its disclosure for the purposes of any legal proceedings; in other words, not merely legal proceedings where the 2.30 pm evidence would be used against the particular witness. I Amendment 76 would also provide a blanket protection am happy to confirm to the House that, while we from disclosure covering any material that can be considered concluded that such a protection would be problematic part of the ISC’s proceedings. It would cover not just in terms of compatibility with the European convention evidence received by the ISC in the course of its proceedings, on human rights in relation to criminal proceedings, we but records of the ISC’s deliberations and records of are satisfied that it will be compatible for civil and the questions asked of witnesses by ISC members. The disciplinary proceedings. amendment would even cover the reports that the ISC lays before Parliament, which will of course be public Government amendment 61 therefore introduces a documents in any event. That is an extremely wide statutory protection for evidence given by witnesses to scope. Interestingly, I note from one of the pieces of the ISC, preventing its disclosure for the purposes of advice given to me that the nature of any such protections any civil or disciplinary proceedings. That protection afforded would also go further than those for minutes applies not merely to civil and disciplinary proceedings of Cabinet. where the evidence would be used against the particular witness, but to all such proceedings. As a result, the There is a judgment to be struck. I recognise some of existing prohibition on the use of evidence against the the issues that are being raised, which concern what a witness needs only to deal with use of evidence in criminal statutory Committee is. The ISC is a statutory Committee proceedings, since the wider protection given by the of Parliament but, because of those issues, it is not provision introduced by Government amendment 61 afforded all the protections of parliamentary privilege. will cover use of evidence against a witness in civil or The Government have worked hard to frame a number disciplinary proceedings. Government amendment 62 of protections to take the Committee as close as possible makes the necessary consequential changes. to a full parliamentary Committee—if I can use that rather inelegant language—that would be captured by As amended, paragraph 6 of schedule 1 will therefore parliamentary privilege. However, we believe that provide a statutory protection for evidence given by amendment 76 would run into significant legal issues. witnesses to the ISC, preventing its disclosure for the purposes of any civil or disciplinary proceedings. In On the issue of proportionality—which I will finally addition, evidence given by a witness before the ISC will come on to—there are a considerable number of matters not be able to be used against that witness in criminal that make the amendment problematic, although I proceedings. Of course, evidence that is deliberately understand the intent behind it. misleading is of no assistance to the ISC. Accordingly, the protections do not apply to evidence given in bad Dr Julian Lewis: Does the Minister agree that this is a faith. It is important to explain the context in which the similar dilemma to the one we faced on the question of drafting has been framed. publicity? The Opposition’s amendment might go too far, but we on the Committee feel that what the Government It may be that others will argue that this further propose does too little. It protects witnesses against protection, while welcome, does not go far enough. their evidence being used against them, but falls short—as Indeed, I note that the right hon. Member for Normanton, the Minister seems to be conceding—of the protection Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) has tabled the Committee would have if it were a Select Committee. an amendment that would extend the protection even Will he undertake to come back with something else at further, and no doubt the hon. Member for Kingston a later stage—perhaps in the other place—that would upon Hull North will wish to speak to that. All I will be a better compromise between those two positions? say at this stage—obviously, I will listen to what the hon. Lady says in her speech—is that we believe there is James Brokenshire: I fully respect what my hon. Friend a significant issue of compatibility with the European has said. We have given careful consideration, at length, convention on human rights. For example, it is possible to the statutory protections afforded to the ISC through that criminal proceedings against an individual could this Bill. He will remember the debates we had in hinge on the testimony of a particular witness who has Committee about issues under the Data Protection Act given inconsistent evidence to the ISC about broadly and the Freedom of Information Act, along with a the same matters. If approved, this protection in the number of other statutory provisions, which we believed proposed amendment would prevent the inconsistent needed to be addressed to afford the ISC a number of evidence given before the ISC from being used by the additional protections. Although I very much hear what defence in the criminal proceedings to discredit the he says, the Government believe that we have taken this witness. as far as we can through our amendments—and within That would lead to obvious unfairness for the defendant the remit of article 6 of the ECHR, for example—to in criminal proceedings. We do not believe that our afford those protections and frame the provisions. I preferred protection on this issue runs into that problem, note the concern he has raised; all I would say is that the because of the nature of its framing and the protections Government have taken some additional steps—on things against self-incrimination. The ECHR has recognised that the existing Committee does not currently have—in that the privilege against self-incrimination lies at the how the Bill is framed to move the Committee as close heart of the notion of a fair trial. By providing the as we can, within the framework of law, to provide the accused with protection against improper compulsion relevant protections. 1191 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1192
As members of the ISC who are here today will Hazel Blears: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for recognise, consideration was given to how one might his explicit recognition of the fact that the Committee approach the issue of parliamentary privilege. Indeed, has had access to operational information for some there was a lengthy debate in the other place on that considerable time, despite the fact that no such provision issue. There is a broad recognition that trying to define is in the current legislation. The Committee remains parliamentary privilege in statute would open a whole concerned about the use of the word “voluntarily”, and new array of issues. Indeed, I do not think this House I had hoped that the Government would withdraw it would welcome an attempt to frame the privileges that from the Bill. It goes against the whole spirit of the reside in this place by way of an Act of Parliament, direction in which we are moving, from the right to which might be subject to further litigation and challenge, request information to the right to require it. That is a which not only might have an effect simply on the ISC small change on the face of it, but it is actually a big, but could have a limiting effect on parliamentary privilege transformational step. I do not think that the word for broader issues in this House. When considering this “voluntarily” is necessary in the Bill; it is superfluous issue, everyone involved in the examination of the Bill and its retention goes against the direction of travel, in thought that that would be a very unfortunate step to that the agencies will voluntarily be able to decide take. Therefore, the Government have thereafter sought whether to provide information. That is not the relationship to approach the issue by framing matters within existing that we currently have with the agencies, let alone the legislative frameworks. one that we want for the future. I ask the Minister to think again. Why does he want the word “voluntarily” Sir Menzies Campbell: I just want to advise the in there when we acknowledge that for the issues in Minister—who might not need advising—and the House question, this is a matter of requesting information just that there is a Joint Committee of both Houses wrestling as we do now? with precisely the problem he has just outlined, and it would not have made a great deal of sense for this Bill James Brokenshire: As the right hon. Lady says, the to proceed in a way that pre-empted any conclusions Committee already receives information on ongoing reached by the Committee. operational matters, and that would fall short of the requirements in the first two limbs that I have described. James Brokenshire: I entirely agree with the right She will have seen the Government’s amendment that hon. and learned Gentleman; hence the reason the seeks to reflect the existing work that takes place and Government have taken the approach they have. the information that is provided. As always with legislation, Let me turn briefly to amendment 55, which concerns this is a question of the wording and the way in which the ISC’s ability to oversee operational matters. With matters are interpreted by lawyers, as well as by Members the amendments, the Bill now provides for three routes of Parliament. The provision is in no way intended to by which the ISC may consider particular operational cut across the Committee’s existing work or the existing matters. The first is where the Prime Minister and the flow of information when a request for further clarification ISC are agreed that the matter is of significant national has been made. It is intended to provide a distinction interest and not part of any ongoing intelligence and between the first two limbs, which will contain an security operations. The second route is where the element of further requirement, and the third limb, in Government request the ISC to consider a matter which information will be provided because it has been notwithstanding the fact that those criteria are not met. requested rather than required, and in which further The third is where the ISC’s consideration of an operational investigations will be limited to using the information matter is limited to considering information provided to that has been so provided. it voluntarily by the agencies or another Department. That additional route was provided to meet a further Mr George Howarth: I am following the Minister’s concern of the ISC—that the requirement that both the argument closely. It would be helpful if he told us how ISC and the Prime Minister should be satisfied that the he envisages a situation being resolved where an agency criteria for oversight of operational matters had been decides voluntarily not to provide information that the met risked slowing the provision of information to the Committee feels is important. There might be a mechanism ISC on routine operational matters. Obviously that already for doing that but, off the top of my head, I am not sure happens now; the concern was that not framing the what it is. third limb might hinder it. We therefore made an amendment in Committee to address that third point. James Brokenshire: This relates to operational matters The key issue is that, as has been highlighted, for the and inquiries by the Committee. We have had discussions first two categories there is the ability to require further about the exploration of operational matters—this is a information to be given, whereas for the third limb— new aspect of the Committee’s work, as the right hon. because, in essence, information is provided without being Gentleman will acknowledge—and about how to frame compelled—those further requirements did not operate. that. Detailed consideration has been given to the specific That is why the structure has been framed in this way. matters that an inquiry may cover, and that is supplemented My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East by the memorandum of understanding in respect of the expressed some concern about the term “voluntarily”. I first two limbs. Clause 2(3)(c) is intended to cover the think his point was that this was in some way a ordinary information that is being provided. I think it presentational issue—that we understood what we were was accepted in Committee that that paragraph dealt talking about when it came to information that would with the concerns of the ISC about ordinary matters ordinarily be provided to the Committee. We have reflected that would be provided in that course. It states that on that point; hence the reason for a further amendment “the ISC’s consideration of the matter is limited to the consideration to try to clarify rights of access. of information provided voluntarily to the ISC by” 1193 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1194
[James Brokenshire] partial information from the security services that has affected the Committee’s decision-making. Voluntarily the agencies, following those kinds of inquiries. These means “you can if you like; and if you don’t want to, are issues that have customarily been dealt with by the you don’t have to”. Use of that word in the Bill is Committee in its ordinary course. A relationship is superfluous to requirements and sends out entirely the established between the Committee and the agencies, wrong message. and information is provided in that ordinary course, and we have sought to reflect the current practice. James Brokenshire: In their contributions this afternoon, members of the ISC have clearly underlined the robust Mark Field: The Minister will have gathered from the scrutiny that is provided. These provisions relate only to contributions from the right hon. Members for Salford operational matters—the new element added to the and Eccles (Hazel Blears) and for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) overall purview of the ISC that will result from the Bill. that the Committee currently goes well beyond the I have already highlighted the importance of clause 2(3)(a) constraints of the original legislation. Does he recognise and (b) for the two limbs, which covers the ability to that the use of the word “voluntarily” will give rise to require the provision of further information. If other concern outside this place that the Committee remains more general inquiries take place, the provisions for the the poodle of the Executive or, to a certain extent, of third limb are intended to denote the fact that the the security services? He is right to suggest that it will request to the agencies would not fall under the first two make relatively little difference to general day-to-day elements of the three limbs. It is a separate category. operations, but one of the ideas behind the Bill was to make it crystal clear that we are not a poodle of the Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab) Executive or the Prime Minister of the day, and that we rose— are not under the control of the security services. The whole idea of this is that we should be in a position to James Brokenshire: I am conscious of how long I demand, and ensure that we get, material, rather than have already spoken for, but I will give way one last being at anyone else’s beck and call. time. James Brokenshire: I absolutely agree and direct my Paul Goggins: The Minister has been generous and is hon. Friend to the provisions in schedule 1, particularly providing an excellent defence of his position, but he the part on access to information, which sets out clearly does not need to be defensive because we know he is not the rights of the ISC to obtain further information. being obstructive and is genuinely trying to find a way That clear reform has been taken forward through the forward. He really should consider carefully, however, Bill. I would certainly endorse and underline my hon. taking out the word “voluntarily” and then setting out Friend’s point. The ISC has not been a poodle in any his concerns in the memorandum of understanding. It sense in its existing format and that position would be is quite clear that it could be done in that way, so I urge strengthened even further under the Bill. The ultimate him to consider doing it. purpose of the reforms it contains is to ensure that scrutiny is enhanced further—for the very important reasons we have discussed. James Brokenshire: I hear the clear statements, but I have sought to respond in an equally clear fashion on why we judge that the need for that word still remains. 2.45 pm Right hon. and hon. Members have argued loudly and Paul Murphy rose— clearly across the House in what I believe has been a good public demonstration of the clear and robust Hazel Blears rose— challenge that the ISC provides to Ministers and to members of the security agencies. I welcome the exchange we have had to underline the clear and focused challenge James Brokenshire: I will give way to the right hon. that will no doubt be given and enhanced as a result of Gentleman and the right hon. Lady, but then, because the provisions. of time considerations, I should let other right hon. and hon. Members contribute. I note that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has tabled amendment 71. Rather Paul Murphy: I am grateful. Does the Minister not than delay her presentation further, I will if I may accept that the word “voluntarily” goes against the respond to the points she raises in my summing up, spirit of the Bill and the spirit of the memorandum? although I have already taken up a great deal of the Perhaps he should reflect a bit further on it. House’s time. With those comments, I support Government amendment 56. James Brokenshire: I take note of that point, but let me take the right hon. Lady’s intervention before I Diana Johnson: I want to discuss amendment 75, respond. She is likely to make a similar point, so I might which deals with the Osmotherly rules, amendment 76, as well take the two together. which deals with the protection of ISC proceedings, and amendment 74, which deals with pre-appointment Hazel Blears: The Minister is likely to face a unanimous hearings. view on this issue—certainly from members of the Amendment 75, tabled by me and by my right Committee. The use of the word “voluntarily” creates hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract entirely the wrong impression of the direction of the and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), would remove the Bill. It is superfluous; the Government do not need Government’s ability to refuse to disclose information “voluntarily”. In the past, the ISC has sometimes received to the ISC when it is information “not proper” to be 1195 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1196 disclosed to a Select Committee under the Osmotherly They are important because we want witnesses to be rules. The Bill currently allows a Minister to withhold able to give full and frank evidence to the Committee, information if and we want the Committee to be able to receive evidence “it is information of such a nature that, if the Secretary of State in confidence. It may be helpful to compare the provisions were requested to produce it before a Departmental Select Committee governing the ISC to the provisions governing Select of the House of Commons, the Secretary of State would consider Committees. Evidence given to Select Committees, whether (on grounds which were not limited to national security) it proper written or oral, is subject to parliamentary privilege, not to do so.” which means that the evidence cannot be used in any What Ministers are able to disclose to Select Committees court proceedings against the witness or anyone else. is governed by those famous Osmotherly rules, which This is a central tenet of our democracy and allows we discussed in Committee. There are three reasons for witnesses to give the frankest possible answers without withholding information: disproportionate cost, the fact fear of reprisals. Witnesses giving evidence to the ISC that the information is sub judice, and the fact that it are likely to be particularly mindful of the legal obligations relates to a previous Administration. Our amendment on them. Evidence is likely to be covered by the Official would rule out the use of the Osmotherly rules altogether, Secrets Act and, technically, an offence would be committed although we would be happy for an agreement on cost every time a witness exceeded the explicit permission to be included in the memorandum of understanding, they had been given, which could be frequent. which would achieve the same result. This may not be the only restriction on a witness’s Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The so-called ability to give evidence. Restrictions are likely to be Osmotherly rules were devised by the Executive but contained within the witness’s employment contract were never accepted in any form by Parliament, and and the civil service code. Such restrictions have the were not considered by Parliament’s Committees to potential to pose two problems to the ISC. First, they have any binding force. could slow down or prohibit witnesses where there is no genuine need for them not to be able to divulge evidence Diana Johnson: That is an interesting point, but because but it is not clear they have the legal authority. Secondly, of the way in which the Bill is drafted and because of the they could prevent the Committee from taking evidence references that have been made to the use of the Osmotherly from whistleblowers. In recognition of these difficulties, rules, we think that there is a case for excluding them in Committee the Government tabled amendments completely from the Minister’s decision making. introducing statutory protection for witnesses, exempting evidence they provided to the Committee from civil, We do not think that sub judice information should disciplinary or criminal proceedings. Amendments 61 be excluded from the ISC’s hearings, because that might and 62 refine that. They maintain the complete exemption may prevent it from seeing particularly important from civil or disciplinary proceedings, but limit the information. As significant procedures exist to ensure exemption in criminal proceedings to action taken against that information will be protected, we should not worry the witness. about the ISC seeing the information if it would assist it. We also feel that the ISC should have access to The Opposition welcomed the introduction of these information held by previous Administrations, for two protections and accept the refinements made today, but main reasons. First, the matters that the ISC investigates it is important that the House realises that these protections are rarely politically sensitive, although they will be fall far short of those enjoyed by Select Committees sensitive in other ways. Secondly, the ISC will often be and leave many unanswered questions. It is also important able to investigate an issue only after a change of to realise that because these are statutory protections Administration. Its role is usually retrospective, which and not privilege, it would be possible for the Government means that there will often be a long delay before it can or an agency to obtain an injunction preventing a begin an investigation. witness from appearing before the Committee. As I have stated, parliamentary privilege covers all Sir Alan Beith: The ISC has, on occasion, sought the proceedings of a Select Committee, and it is important permission from Ministers in a previous Administration to realise what that means in practice. It means the to obtain access to material, and indeed has been given evidence presented to a Select Committee is covered by it, only to find that current Ministers decline to give privilege. That is not any document submitted to the permission on other grounds. Committee, but documents accepted by the Committee as evidence. Privilege also covers all proceedings of the Diana Johnson: It is helpful to know that. However, Committee, including advice given by the Clerks to time is pressing, so I shall move on to amendment 76. members of the Committee and actions of members The Minister spent a fair amount of time discussing the while serving on the Committee. amendment and the issues that he considered arose I highlight these areas because it is not at all clear to from it. It would exempt all proceedings of the ISC me what alternative protections are given to the ISC in from civil, criminal or disciplinary proceedings¸ which such situations. I would like to ask the Minister about a would protect members of the Committee, staff of the hypothetical situation where the ISC receives classified Committee, and evidence held by the Committee. In information relating to serious wrongdoing on the part that respect, it extends the protections that the Government of an element of the security agencies. Let us say, for inserted in the Bill in Committee, which have now been example, the ISC were anonymously to receive Secret refined in their amendments 61 and 62. Intelligence Service transcripts indicating an agent had Before I go into the details of the difference between committed torture. I am not saying this has ever happened; amendment 76 and the Government amendments, I I just want the Minister to say what would happen if it should establish why these protections are important. were the case. 1197 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1198
[Diana Johnson] amendment 76. Although we do not pretend that it will confer parliamentary privilege on the proceedings of It is questionable whether the ISC would be able to the Committee we feel that it should confer some statutory act on the evidence it received. That would depend on protections, including on the Committee’s members, the provisions in clause 2. These documents may be staff and evidence. directly related to an investigation the ISC was already Amendment 74 is about pre-appointment hearings for undertaking, but that is not the question I want to focus agency heads. The previous Labour Government introduced on here: I am asking whether the ISC is even in a pre-appointment hearings for a range of public sector position to accept these documents. roles and we think that that should be extended to agency heads. Select Committees now hold pre-appointment Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Would hearings for a range of positions, and in keeping with the effect of amendment 76 be that if, for example, the our desire to make the ISC have some similarities with ISC uncovered evidence of collusion in torture, that Select Committees, we would like to give it that role. evidence could not be used in a court case? Long gone are the days when heads of agencies were Diana Johnson: I have tabled this amendment because secretive figures; today they are well known and have a I am not satisfied that the provisions the Government strong profile, which is all part of efforts on the part of have proposed so far offer the type of protection that the agencies to open themselves up. We should try to this Committee needs. I heard what the Minister said, help in that and we should applaud those efforts. As the and his response seemed to be that the amendment was noble Baroness Manningham-Buller said in the other drafted too broadly. I do not have the back-up of place, any person who is capable of running a hugely learned counsel in drafting amendments, and I want the complex organisation, taking difficult decisions and Minister to explain what kind of protections are available juggling competing interests should be able to give a and what their effect would be in the circumstances I competent account of themselves and their organisation have described. in front of MPs. It is questionable whether the ISC would be able to Another positive consequence of introducing pre- act on evidence it received. I hope the Minister will appointment hearings is that it will encourage senior address that point and explain the impact of the clause 2 members of the agencies to foster strong relationships provisions. The documents might relate to an ISC with the Committee in preparation for their possible investigation, which might be relevant to whether it future hearings. Such hearings were suggested in the would be possible to put the documents forward and other place and we discussed them in Committee, too. I examine them. believe the responses from the Minister in the other ISC staff members will be signatories to the Official place and in Committee were rather weak. The Secrets Act. It is my understanding that parliamentary Governments argued that such hearings were not necessary Clerks would be protected as soon as the document was because agency heads were essentially civil servants and taken into evidence, but no such protection is available subject to the normal civil service recruitment rules. to the ISC Clerk. Is that correct? If a staff member who Although that argument might be technically correct, received documents decided to pass them on to the it fails to realise the two special characteristics of agency Chair of the ISC, will the Minister confirm that they heads. First, they have far more autonomy than most would be doing that without lawful authority and would civil servants not only in how they structure their therefore be in breach of the Official Secrets Act? organisation but in operational matters. The decisions they make are of a different order of magnitude from 3pm those made by normal civil servants. They make decisions Will the Minister also confirm the position for members that can be a matter of life or death, either for their staff of the Committee who consider such documents? Would or for people in the UK. members of the ISC be committing an offence under Secondly, there is a more confusing line of accountability. the Official Secrets Act by possessing those documents? If the permanent secretary of the Home Office makes a It is important to remember that Members of Parliament decision or a mistake, the Home Secretary will be required have privilege in fulfilling their role as MPs and sitting to answer for it. She appears before Parliament on a on parliamentary Committees, but as I understand it, regular basis and the decisions made by her Department privilege does not protect them in their role on the ISC. are in the public eye. There is no such clear line of Finally, I want to ask the Minister about the status of accountability for agency heads. As the noble Lord the hypothetical document to which I referred. Evidence Henley explained in the other place, the Prime Minister accepted by a Select Committee is not admissible in a has overall responsibility within government for intelligence court of law, but what about evidence given to the ISC? and security matters and for the agencies. Day-to-day The Government’s amendment protects witnesses, but ministerial responsibility for the Security Service lies in the case to which I was referring the witness would with the Home Secretary and that for the Secret Intelligence not be identifiable as the information would be given Service and GCHQ lies with the Foreign Secretary. The anonymously. That is often the case with whistleblowers: Home Secretary is accountable to Parliament, and therefore they are protected in the Select Committee system because to the public, for the work of the Security Service; their evidence is privileged, but under the Bill as drafted similarly, the Foreign Secretary has his accountability. they would appear to be protected only if they had been Only rarely are any such figures called on to account for recognised by the ISC as a witness. If they were not the work of the agencies, however, so we must put greater identified as the witness who provided the evidence, the emphasis and scrutiny on the person doing the evidence given to the ISC could be used against them in implementation behind the scenes. I shall therefore proceedings. That is why the Opposition have tabled want to test the opinion of the House on amendment 74. 1199 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1200
On amendment 57, the Under-Secretary sets out in a On the use of the word “voluntary”, I can only re-emphasise letter written to members of the Committee dated 5 March what has been said by many other colleagues. The 2013 that any breach of the oath given by a witness Minister endeavoured to explain to the House why this would not be contempt of Parliament but could constitute applies only to that part of our duties that relate to an offence of perjury under the Perjury Act 1911, which operational matters. All I can say to him and to the could therefore be enforced through the police and Government is that we will be spending an awful lot of criminal justice system. Can the Minister clarify whether our time trying to fend off critics who, wilfully or this is different from what would happen in the case of a otherwise, choose to interpret the presence of the word Select Committee? Will he explain how this would “voluntarily” on the face of the Bill as implying that we work, as the ISC sits in private and deals with very do not have the ability to force the agencies to comply sensitive information? with our requests, when in most cases we do. There While the Minister is clarifying the position on oaths, must be a simpler and less emotive term that can be I would appreciate it if he could clarify the ISC’s ability used to express the same purpose, without leaving us to call witnesses to come before the Committee. As I open to such unjustified criticism. understand it, the ISC needs the permission of the On the question of privilege, I am still concerned, as Prime Minister and the agency heads before hearing are the Opposition, that sufficient measures have not from a member of staff of either agency. Nevertheless, I been taken to empower the Committee and protect the understand that an individual, who may or may not be Committee to anything like the same extent. For example, a member of an intelligence agency, can volunteer to when the Committee discusses people’s possible involvement appear before the ISC and the Prime Minister or agency in serious criminal activity, could we end up in a situation head would require an injunction to prevent them from in which some of our proceedings that involve statements appearing, although this person may be subject to various —not from witnesses, but from Committee members—that legal constraints, as I mentioned earlier. in the ordinary course of events might be regarded as My current concern centres on the ability of the ISC defamatory may result in court proceedings being taken to compel a witness to attend. There is already a limitation against members in a way that would not be possible on its ability to call witnesses employed by one of the with members of a Select Committee in analogous agencies, but what about witnesses not so employed, circumstances? If we could end up in such a situation, such as a retired agent, a member of the police or an the Government need to consider that problem very ordinary citizen? Can the Minister explain what powers seriously indeed and do something about it at a later the ISC has to compel such people to give evidence? stage. I hope that the Minister will refer to that in his Amendment 73 and Government amendment 60 deal closing remarks. with the publication of reports. A strong message is clearly On the question of pre-appointment hearings, I do being sent to the Government and I was pleased to hear not believe that the Committee has taken a corporate view what the Minister said, with assurances given and an as such, but one point must be made, and made strongly: undertaking to consider a memorandum of understanding this would add to the work load of the Committee’s staff. as a way forward. On Government amendment 55, it The Committee, as has been made crystal clear today, is would be helpful if, in his final comments, the Minister already grotesquely understaffed by comparison with could respond to the points raised by Members today. comparable committees and organisations in this country Finally, amendment 71 appears to give the ISC a and in Europe. Therefore, were we to take on that significant new role and appears to allow individuals to further burden, we would definitely need better proposals make requests to the ISC, which I believe is unprecedented, for resourcing it than those that are currently ready. and it also appears to give the ISC a role in addressing The Opposition are quite right to resist amendment 71, wrongdoing—possible torts committed by the agencies because individual complaints against the agencies, such against individuals—and providing some form of redress as that involving Binyam Mohamed, are not the to those individuals. I am not clear about the purpose of responsibility of the ISC; they fall within the statutory the amendment, but on the face of it the Opposition do remit of the Investigatory Powers Tribunal. That is the not support it. correct body to deal with such matters. Finally, on the question of the Osmotherly rules, I Several hon. Members rose— am glad that the matter will be dealt with one way or another. We would prefer it to be set out in the Bill, but Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. There otherwise in the memorandum of understanding, because are four Members trying to catch my eye on this set of the ISC frequently needs access to the papers of a previous amendments and the knife falls at 4 o’clock, so I ask Administration, for example, or has to deal with matters Members to be conscious of the time that they take to that are sub judice, and we cannot row backwards from make their case in order to allow the Minister to respond. that situation. Subject to those comments, we are very pleased with the progress the Bill has made thus far. Dr Julian Lewis: I shall be brief. On amendment 73, in the light of the undertaking given by the Minister to Caroline Lucas: Amendment 71 seeks to provide some my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and form of recourse for people who have been defamed by Westminster (Mark Field) that the publication issues the UK security services and to ensure that part of the will be addressed in the memorandum of understanding, Intelligence and Security Committee’s remit is to investigate I am say on behalf of colleagues that we do not propose such claims and, where necessary, ensure that they are to press that amendment. corrected. I listened with interest to what the hon. On the question of taking evidence on oath, I think I Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said about this speak for colleagues on the Committee in saying that we not necessarily being the right forum. I am happy to be are entirely happy with what the Government propose. advised on that, but right now it feels that there is no 1201 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1202
[Caroline Lucas] 3.15 pm Mr George Howarth: Perhaps some of my right hon. appropriate forum. The situation of Shaker Aamer, for Friends will explain to the hon. Lady the powers that example, which I will set out in more detail shortly, exist to deal with such cases, and deal with them shortly, demonstrates that. If the hon. Gentleman can enlighten one hopes. Does she think it would be right for a me on how we can make existing forums work more Committee of Parliament to act in a quasi-judicial or effectively, for example in this case, I would be very even wholly judicial role, which would be the effect of interested to hear what he has to say. her amendment? The ability of the security services effectively to say what they like about anyone, often resulting in serious Caroline Lucas: I am not convinced that the Committee consequences for the individual concerned, is at present would be acting in a quasi-judicial role; I would share largely unchecked. As John Cooper QC said in a legal the right hon. Gentleman’s reservations were that to be opinion on precisely that issue, the security services are so. I am honestly searching for a solution to the problem, “presently allowed to literally say what they will to and perhaps this is not the right one. However, I want to achieve their own ends, whether or not those ends are put on record the real concern that exists about the legal, democratic or in accordance with the rule of law. situation that Shaker Aamer finds himself in. If nothing In addition to this, those who indulge in these activities else, I hope that if this is not the right route to take, are completely unaccountable to the citizen, to the Government Members will direct me towards the Government, and even to a quasi-regulator or body appropriate measures, because this case has been going charged with their oversight, such as the ISC. What is on for very many years. more, the victims of such defamation are likely to be the most vulnerable individuals, most likely detained under Dr Julian Lewis: I wish to be helpful to the hon. Lady, the most restrictive of circumstances. In essence, they and I think that the Investigatory Powers Tribunal is the are prisoners defamed by their controllers and captors. body that she has in mind. All these tribunals, including That is neither right, nor acceptable.” those for communications issues and for complaints I want to give a real-life example to help illustrate such as this one, are headed up by senior judges. I think why I believe that this is so important. British resident she would find that they are a much more appropriate Shaker Aamer, whose wife and children are British route. However, it is obviously very interesting to hear citizens and live in south London, has been held in what she has to say about these worrying cases. Guantanamo for more than 11 years, despite having been cleared for release by both the Bush and Obama Caroline Lucas: In the interests of time, I will leave Administrations. The Foreign Secretary has raised the the matter there and pursue it via other avenues. I am case with the US on several occasions, and the Foreign grateful for the opportunity to have aired this really Office has made it clear that important case. “The government remains committed to securing Mr Aamer’s release and return to the UK.” Sir Menzies Campbell: I am entirely sympathetic to Given that the US has cleared him for release, a what the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline complicated process including multiple federal agencies, Lucas) has said about that case. However, a statutory and the UK Government have made it clear that they avenue is already available under the Regulation and want him to come home, one cannot help asking why Investigatory Powers Act 2000, which set up the Mr Aamer remains detained in Guantanamo, never Investigatory Powers Tribunal. Further to the intervention having been charged or tried for any crimes. The conclusion by the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), that his US lawyer has reached is that Britain’s intelligence a fellow member of the Committee, one might not be agencies have been defaming Mr Aamer to the US, passing able to describe the proposed power that she wishes to on false information and accusing him of extremism, provide as quasi-judicial, but it might possess a hybrid and that is what is holding up his release. relationship in being both investigative and judicial, or in a position of seeking to create redress. Mr Aamer is being deprived of his liberty on the basis Apart from that, there is a fundamental statutory of lies being told about him that he is unable to challenge. point. The hon. Lady’s proposed subsection (4A) refers He has therefore begun defamation action against the to a situation in which security services—action that could be pushed into a secret court under part 2 of the Bill, leaving him once “a plausible claim has been made by or on behalf of an individual again unable to confront his accusers or to challenge the to the ISC that the Security Service…has disseminated any information to any recipient concerning any person that appears to be…materially evidence used by the Government against him. I would false; and…harmful to the person defamed.” argue that, at the very least, it is important that a duty be placed on the Intelligence and Security Committee The breadth of that goes far beyond even the jurisdiction fully to investigate such claims. That would not be a of any court in the United Kingdom of which I am solution in itself, but it could provide some small measure aware. Proposed subsection (4B) says that of recourse for those such as Mr Aamer who find “the ISC shall fully and expeditiously investigate the claim”— themselves in the gravest of positions as a result of so it does involve an investigative function— information passed behind their back. “and, where the claim appears to be well founded, shall ensure I will be very happy to hear if there are other ways of that the misinformation is expeditiously corrected.” addressing this problem, but right now the advice that I But by what means? The ISC is not in a position to am receiving from some of the legal people involved in implement any such action. The amendment is not the case is that they are not aware of any measure that legally well-founded. In any event, as has been pointed would do so. out, its scope goes far beyond anything that the Committee’s 1203 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1204 staff and resources would permit. Moreover, there is no appear to be precluded. Moreover, when there is friction indication of how the powers would be exercised or how or tension, it becomes easier for the head of an agency they could ever be implemented. or, at least as often—indeed, perhaps more often—a Minister or civil servant to say, “This goes beyond the Sir Alan Beith: I want to consider briefly the restrictive memorandum of understanding. It is outwith the terms wording of parts of clause 2 and the voluntary issue of the statute.” We have heard such language and the that has been raised by a number of Members. right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), who is a I served on the Intelligence and Security Committee previous Chairman of the Committee, will remember for about 11 years from its very beginning. It was a slow how rigid some people in the relevant Departments and painful task to get the first generation of heads of could be from time to time. agencies and civil servants from Departments to understand Ministers need to make it clear, as they have done to the Committee’s need for a deep understanding of the some extent in these discussions, that it is in the interests relevant matters in order for us to do our job effectively. of the democratic accountability of these extremely Subsequent generations of heads of agencies were ready important and valuable agencies that the public have to involve the Committee more closely and to bring up confidence, not only in the agencies, but in that process operational matters, whatever the statute said. It did of democratic accountability, circumscribed as it is by not take me long to realise that it was not possible for the need to protect the work of those agencies. members of the Committee to do their job properly unless they understood how various kinds of operations James Brokenshire: This has been a useful debate were conducted and the constraints and problems faced underlining the importance the House attaches to the by the agencies. In particular, it was not possible to scrutiny provided by the ISC and how it is being enhanced discharge an important responsibility without an by the steps contemplated as a consequence of the understanding of operational matters. Bill. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed One of the purposes of the ISC, where Members of (Sir Alan Beith), the Chairman of the Justice Committee, both Houses of Parliament look closely at the work of made the point about the scrutiny so far seen in the agencies, is to give people on the outside—both in this House and how we are seeking to strengthen it further. place and in the community at large—a sense that I shall respond first to the hon. Member for Brighton, Members who are there by democratic means are observing Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and her amendment 71. As the agencies sufficiently closely to give confidence that others have said, the essentially judicial function she their work is within the framework not only of the law, seeks does not sit well within the ISC, which is intended but of the ethics and principles by which we try to run to be a Committee of Parliament. It is not for the ISC our country. The background is that agencies were to consider, much less determine, individual complaints often accused of doing precisely the opposite in years about the intelligence services, especially given that gone by. Unless we can give people that confidence and there is already a body that can consider these matters say, “Yes, I have looked very closely at this matter and I and which we believe is well equipped to do so. Right do not think you need to be concerned about it,” the hon. and hon. Members have highlighted the work of Committee will not be discharging properly one of its the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, which is the appropriate most important roles. We found that we had to look route through which complaints should be made. very closely at operational matters and that became The hon. Lady referred to the case of Shaker Aamer. easier as time went on. I assure her that his case remains a high priority for the The work sometimes involves what are, in effect, UK Government and we continue to make it clear to ongoing intelligence operations. In some fields, the work the US that we want him released and returned to the never stops and an operation to do with a particular UK as a matter of priority. We continue to work with recurrent problem does not have a simple end, so the US counterparts to consider the implications for provision in clause 2(3)(a)(i) is restrictive. Mr Aamer’s case of the 2013 National Defence I fully understand how the Government have arrived Authorisation Act. Discussions continue with senior at the word “voluntarily”. It would have been absurd if officials within the US Administration. The Foreign the wording had prevented the Committee from continuing Secretary raised Mr Aamer’s case numerous times with to work closely with the agencies in the way it has done former Secretary of State Clinton and will continue to in recent years. That would have been ridiculous, so the do so with Secretary of State Kerry. As the Foreign word is there for a perfectly respectable reason. Indeed, Secretary told Parliament last October, he and the things have been improved by the insistence that, if the Defence Secretary also made representations to the US Committee requests something, that does not by definition Defence Secretary Leon Panetta last June. make it involuntary. However, I still think, as the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said, that that Caroline Lucas: I appreciate the Minister’s rehearsing is not the kind of language we want to see in the Bill. the Government’s commitment to getting Shaker Aamer Nor does it give people outside the confidence that this back from Guantanamo. I have no doubt about that, Committee will be able to find out whether something is but does he understand what the obstacle is? The US going wrong when it needs to do so, or that it can be says he can come back here and the UK Government relied on when it seeks to give assurance that all is say we want him back. What, then, is the obstacle? Does reasonably well. he have any idea? The task of getting this right is by no means over. The memorandum of understanding may be able to deal James Brokenshire: I can only say that decisions with those issues better, but, even then, words are being about the release of Mr Aamer rest entirely with the US put on paper and when that happens, as we have discovered, Government. I underline that the British Government simple, practical and sensible ways of doing things may remain committed to engaging with the US with the 1205 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1206
[James Brokenshire] The hon. Lady asked whether the ISC can choose which witnesses can be called and whether it can compel aim of securing Mr Aamer’s release and return to the witnesses to attend. At the moment, it cannot compel a UK as soon as possible. To conclude my remarks on the particular individual to be a witness. However, the hon. Lady’s amendment, let me say that we believe there important element in the Bill is the power to compel is an appropriate mechanism by which she or others can information to be provided to the Committee. That is a bring complaints to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal. powerful provision and an important step. In practice, On amendment 74 and pre-appointment hearings, I the ISC, the agencies and others discuss and agree on do not wish to go back over the lengthy debate we had who is the appropriate person to appear and give evidence in Committee on this issue. I can only restate several on a particular point. The current practice is for the ISC points I made then: pre-appointment hearings are a to have regular oral evidence sessions with Ministers, relatively new phenomenon in the UK; the Cabinet agency heads and other senior officials. Office has published guidance on the process to be I have heard clearly the points that have been made followed for such hearings; and at the moment the list about the word “voluntary”. The Government believe of posts subject to those hearings relates to public that our amendments provide clarity. We are in no way bodies, such as the chair of Ofcom or the Social Security seeking to suggest that the powers of the ISC are not Advisory Committee. The pre-appointment process has significant or that the steps in the Bill are not important never been used for the appointment of civil servants. in providing what this House wants to see, which is The heads of the intelligence and security agencies are enhanced, robust scrutiny of the agencies and broader permanent secretary-level civil servants, so the recruitment security issues across government. We believe that the process is expected to follow the process for the appointment Bill provides effective new powers that will enable enhanced of civil servants of such seniority. We judge that this scrutiny, provide confidence and add to the approaches continues to be the appropriate mechanism. that the ISC already takes. On the Osmotherly rules, I made the point in Committee I want to put on the record my recognition of the that the powers to withhold information from the ISC work of the ISC in carrying out its duties. We believe have been used sparingly and that we expect them to that that work will be strengthened by the Bill and the continue to be used only in exceptional circumstances. Government amendments. I therefore encourage the The Osmotherly rules set out categories of information, House to support them. including information on officials’ personal views, as Amendment 56 agreed to. distinct from the views of Ministers, on policy options; Amendments made: 57, page 17, line 4, leave out information that could be supplied only after carrying sub-paragraph (6) and insert— out substantial research or at excessive cost; information about matters that are sub judice; and the papers of a ‘(6) The ISC may take evidence on oath, and for that purpose previous Administration. The provisions in the Bill are may administer oaths.’. necessary to safeguard the long-standing conventions Amendment 58, page 17, line 6, at end insert— that are reflected in the Osmotherly rules. We judge that the provisions, although they have been used only sparingly, ‘Funding and other resources remain appropriate. 2A A Minister of the Crown—
(a) may make payments to either House of Parliament in 3.30 pm respect of any expenditure incurred, or to be incurred, The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North by either House in relation to the ISC, (Diana Johnson) posed various questions. She asked (b) may provide staff, accommodation or other resources whether the ISC can accept material and evidence to either House of Parliament for the purposes of the anonymously. It can, but it might have doubts about ISC, what weight should be given to such evidence if it (c) may make payments, or provide staff, accommodation cannot be corroborated. or other resources, to the ISC, or The hon. Lady talked about the protection of members of staff. The staff of the ISC all go through developed (d) may otherwise make payments, or provide staff, accommodation or other resources, to any person for vetting. They are therefore able to handle protectively the purposes of the ISC.’. marked material. That is a central part of their job, in the same way as it is for members of agencies and Amendment 59, page 18, line 39, after ‘not’ insert Departments. ‘otherwise’. Amendment 60, page 18, line 42, at end insert— Agency heads are accountable to Parliament in the evidence that they provide to the ISC, including through (za) the ISC and the Prime Minister are satisfied that oral evidence sessions and the upcoming public evidence publication or disclosure would not be prejudicial to sessions. Agency heads are accountable in the same way the continued discharge of the functions of the Security that permanent secretaries to Ministers are accountable Service, the Secret Intelligence Service, the Government for the decisions of their agencies. Communications Headquarters or any person carrying out activities falling within section 2(2),’. On amendment 76, the hon. Lady asked whether Amendment 61, page 19, line 5, at beginning insert— whistleblowers would be protected. They would not be protected, but it is important that we strike a balance ‘(1) Evidence given by a person who is a witness before the ISC between encouraging the flow of evidence to the ISC may not be used in any civil or disciplinary proceedings, unless and giving effective immunity for individuals who breach the evidence was given in bad faith.’. legal obligations, including under the Official Secrets Amendment 62, page 19, line 6, leave out ‘, civil or Act 1989. disciplinary’.—(James Brokenshire.) 1207 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1208
Clause 2 Jarvis, Dan Reynolds, Emma Johnson, Diana Riordan, Mrs Linda MAIN FUNCTIONS OF THE ISC Jones, Graham Robertson, John Jones, Mr Kevan Rotheram, Steve Amendment made: 55, page 2, line 21, after ‘ISC’, Jones, Susan Elan Roy, Mr Frank insert Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Roy, Lindsay ‘(whether or not in response to a request by the ISC)’.—(James Keeley, Barbara Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Brokenshire.) Lavery, Ian Sawford, Andy Amendment proposed: 74, page 2, line 29, at end Lazarowicz, Mark Seabeck, Alison insert— Lewis, Mr Ivan Sharma, Mr Virendra Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sheerman, Mr Barry ‘(4A) The ISC shall consider the proposed appointment of the Love, Mr Andrew Shuker, Gavin following, including by questioning the prospective appointee at Lucas, Caroline Skinner, Mr Dennis a meeting of the ISC— Lucas, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy (a) the Head of the Security Service; Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Angela (b) the Head of the Secret Intelligence Service; Mahmood, Shabana Spellar, rh Mr John (c) the Head of the Government Communications Malhotra, Seema Stringer, Graham Headquarters; and Mann, John Stuart, Ms Gisela (d) such other persons as the Prime Minister may direct. McCarthy, Kerry Tami, Mark (4B) The ISC may consider the appropriateness of holding McClymont, Gregg Thomas, Mr Gareth hearings considering each prospective appointee’s proposed McFadden, rh Mr Pat Timms, rh Stephen appointment in public.’.—(Diana Johnson.) McGovern, Alison Trickett, Jon McKenzie, Mr Iain Turner, Karl Question put, That the amendment be made. Meacher, rh Mr Michael Twigg, Derek The House divided: Ayes 166, Noes 249. Meale, Sir Alan Umunna, Mr Chuka Division No. 176] [3.34 pm Miller, Andrew Vaz, Valerie Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Walley, Joan Mudie, Mr George Watts, Mr Dave AYES Munn, Meg Weir, Mr Mike Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Doran, Mr Frank Murphy, rh Paul Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Doughty, Stephen Murray, Ian Whitehead, Dr Alan Alexander, Heidi Dowd, Jim Nandy, Lisa Williamson, Chris Ali, Rushanara Doyle, Gemma Nash, Pamela Wilson, Phil Allen, Mr Graham Dromey, Jack Onwurah, Chi Winnick, Mr David Bailey, Mr Adrian Eagle, Ms Angela Osborne, Sandra Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Bain, Mr William Edwards, Jonathan Pearce, Teresa Wishart, Pete Banks, Gordon Efford, Clive Perkins, Toby Wright, David Barron, rh Mr Kevin Elliott, Julie Phillipson, Bridget Wright, Mr Iain Bayley, Hugh Ellman, Mrs Louise Powell, Lucy Beckett, rh Margaret Engel, Natascha Qureshi, Yasmin Tellers for the Ayes: Begg, Dame Anne Esterson, Bill Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Nic Dakin and Benn, rh Hilary Evans, Chris Reed, Steve Julie Hilling Benton, Mr Joe Field, rh Mr Frank Betts, Mr Clive Fitzpatrick, Jim NOES Blears, rh Hazel Flello, Robert Blenkinsop, Tom Francis, Dr Hywel Afriyie, Adam Burley, Mr Aidan Blomfield, Paul Gapes, Mike Aldous, Peter Burns, rh Mr Simon Brennan, Kevin Gardiner, Barry Amess, Mr David Burrowes, Mr David Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gilmore, Sheila Andrew, Stuart Burstow, rh Paul Brown, Mr Russell Glindon, Mrs Mary Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burt, Alistair Buck, Ms Karen Godsiff, Mr Roger Bacon, Mr Richard Burt, Lorely Campbell, Mr Alan Goodman, Helen Baker, Norman Byles, Dan Campbell, Mr Ronnie Greatrex, Tom Baldwin, Harriett Cairns, Alun Caton, Martin Green, Kate Barker, rh Gregory Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Champion, Sarah Griffith, Nia Baron, Mr John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Clark, Katy Gwynne, Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Carmichael, Neil Clwyd, rh Ann Hamilton, Mr David Bellingham, Mr Henry Chishti, Rehman Coaker, Vernon Hanson, rh Mr David Benyon, Richard Clappison, Mr James Coffey, Ann Harman, rh Ms Harriet Bingham, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Connarty, Michael Harris, Mr Tom Blackwood, Nicola Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Cooper, rh Yvette Havard, Mr Dai Boles, Nick Coffey, Dr Thérèse Corbyn, Jeremy Healey, rh John Bone, Mr Peter Collins, Damian Creasy, Stella Hendrick, Mark Bottomley, Sir Peter Colvile, Oliver Cruddas, Jon Hepburn, Mr Stephen Bradley, Karen Crabb, Stephen Cunningham, Alex Hillier, Meg Brady, Mr Graham Crockart, Mike Cunningham, Mr Jim Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Brake, rh Tom Davies, David T. C. David, Wayne Hoey, Kate Brazier, Mr Julian (Monmouth) Davidson, Mr Ian Hopkins, Kelvin Brine, Steve Davies, Glyn Davies, Geraint Howarth, rh Mr George Brokenshire, James Davies, Philip Dobbin, Jim Hunt, Tristram Brooke, Annette de Bois, Nick Dobson, rh Frank Irranca-Davies, Huw Browne, Mr Jeremy Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Docherty, Thomas James, Mrs Siân C. Buckland, Mr Robert Doyle-Price, Jackie 1209 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1210
Duddridge, James Lamb, Norman Smith, Miss Chloe Uppal, Paul Duncan, rh Mr Alan Lancaster, Mark Smith, Henry Vara, Mr Shailesh Dunne, Mr Philip Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Sir Robert Vickers, Martin Ellis, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Soames, rh Nicholas Walker, Mr Robin Ellison, Jane Lee, Jessica Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wallace, Mr Ben Elphicke, Charlie Lee, Dr Phillip Spencer, Mr Mark Ward, Mr David Eustice, George Lefroy, Jeremy Stanley, rh Sir John Weatherley, Mike Evans, Graham Leigh, Mr Edward Stephenson, Andrew Webb, Steve Evans, Jonathan Leslie, Charlotte Stewart, Bob Wharton, James Evennett, Mr David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Stewart, Iain Wheeler, Heather Fabricant, Michael Lewis, Brandon Stewart, Rory Whittaker, Craig Fallon, rh Michael Lewis, Dr Julian Streeter, Mr Gary Wiggin, Bill Field, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Stride, Mel Willetts, rh Mr David Foster, rh Mr Don Lilley, rh Mr Peter Stuart, Mr Graham Williams, Mr Mark Fox,rhDrLiam Lord, Jonathan Stunell, rh Andrew Williams, Roger Francois, rh Mr Mark Loughton, Tim Sturdy, Julian Williams, Stephen Freeman, George Luff, Peter Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williamson, Gavin Freer, Mike Lumley, Karen Swinson, Jo Wilson, Mr Rob Fullbrook, Lorraine Maude, rh Mr Francis Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wollaston, Dr Sarah Fuller, Richard Maynard, Paul Syms, Mr Robert Wright, Jeremy Gale, Sir Roger McIntosh, Miss Anne Teather, Sarah Wright, Simon Garnier, Sir Edward McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Thurso, John Yeo, Mr Tim Gauke, Mr David Menzies, Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Young, rh Sir George George, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Zahawi, Nadhim Gibb, Mr Nick Miller, rh Maria Tredinnick, David Gilbert, Stephen Mills, Nigel Truss, Elizabeth Tellers for the Noes: Goldsmith, Zac Milton, Anne Turner, Mr Andrew Mark Hunter and Goodwill, Mr Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Nicky Morgan Grant, Mrs Helen Morris, James Grayling, rh Chris Mosley, Stephen Question accordingly negatived. Green, rh Damian Mowat, David Greening, rh Justine Munt, Tessa Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Murrison, Dr Andrew Schedule 2 Griffiths, Andrew Neill, Robert Gummer, Ben Newton, Sarah CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISION Gyimah, Mr Sam Nokes, Caroline Amendments made: 63, page 19, line 31, at end insert Halfon, Robert O’Brien, Mr Stephen ‘, and Hames, Duncan Ollerenshaw, Eric (b) after “Committee” insert “of Parliament”.’. Hammond, rh Mr Philip Opperman, Guy Hammond, Stephen Ottaway, Richard Amendment 64, page 20, line 18, at end insert ‘, and Hancock, Matthew Paisley, Ian (b) after “Committee” insert “of Parliament”.’. Hands, Greg Parish, Neil Amendment 65, page 21, line 35, leave out ‘7(2)’ and Harper, Mr Mark Patel, Priti insert ‘7(1)’.—(James Brokenshire.) Harrington, Richard Pawsey, Mark Harris, Rebecca Penning, Mike Third Reading Harvey, Sir Nick Penrose, John Queen’s consent signified. Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Perry, Claire Hayes, Mr John Pickles, rh Mr Eric 3.51 pm Heald, Oliver Pincher, Christopher Mr Kenneth Clarke: I beg to move, That the Bill be Heath, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel now read the Third time. Heaton-Harris, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Hemming, John Pritchard, Mark I commend the Bill in its present form to the House. Henderson, Gordon Pugh, John The first point to reflect on, in considering the Bill in Hendry, Charles Raab, Mr Dominic its entirety, is the debt we owe to our security and Hollingbery, George Randall, rh Mr John intelligence services. Unfortunately, we face unprecedented Hollobone, Mr Philip Rees-Mogg, Jacob threats at different times from various enemies, both at Howarth, Sir Gerald Reid, Mr Alan home and abroad. It is extremely important that we Howell, John Robathan, rh Mr Andrew have highly efficient intelligence and security services to Hughes, rh Simon Robertson, rh Hugh protect the lives of our citizens and the normal civilised Huppert, Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence business of the country.We have to support the intelligence Hurd, Mr Nick Rogerson, Dan services on which we rely so heavily. James, Margot Rosindell, Andrew Jenkin, Mr Bernard Rudd, Amber Secondly, this country upholds the highest standards Johnson, Joseph Ruffley, Mr David of human rights in this area of its activities, as in other Jones, Andrew Russell, Sir Bob areas. We all expect those who work in our intelligence Jones, Mr Marcus Rutley, David and security services to have the same regard to the Kawczynski, Daniel Sandys, Laura values that we are defending as everyone else does—that Kelly, Chris Scott, Mr Lee we do have regard to the rule of law. The British Kirby, Simon Selous, Andrew Government are, and, as far I am aware, always have Knight, rh Mr Greg Shannon, Jim been, firmly against the use of torture, firmly against Kwarteng, Kwasi Sharma, Alok unlawful and extraordinary rendition, and firmly against Laing, Mrs Eleanor Skidmore, Chris practices on which some of our allies take a more relaxed 1211 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1212 view. I would like to think that the British intelligence The nature of the evidence that the security and intelligence and security services are not only among the best in the services and the Government would wish to produce to world, but uphold much higher standards in the way defend some of those claims is of the kind that cannot they conduct themselves than is true of the vast majority possibly be given in open court. The courts have made it of the nation states of the world. clear that sometimes there is indeed scope for closed The vast majority of Members agree that we are proceedings, but that they cannot be held through an grateful to the security services, and that it is important ordinary civil action unless Parliament has decided the that they are held as accountable as everyone else. We circumstances in which these should be allowed. follow another principle that the Government, as far as We already have closed proceedings in this country in possible, hold dear, which is that of transparency: avoiding several areas—there are about 14 instances of different unnecessary secrecy wherever possible, and being as jurisdictions where we have closed proceedings, largely open in our dealings with the public in every aspect of in the immigration field. It is of course less than perfect our public life. Plainly, that has to be modified to a justice, because the only possible challenge to the evidence certain extent to protect the absolutely essential secrecy is from special advocates who have been security cleared, that our security services need, and which the people and they are not as free as they would be in an open who co-operate with them, the agents who help us and court case to take full instructions from their clients. the various people we have to rely on throughout the Everybody knows that, but in fact they have more world, need. weight as advocates than most people appreciate. Given I believe that the part of the Bill that we will look the circumstances, most judges are prepared to listen to back on with greatest pleasure is the considerable steps challenges, realising that they have to bear in mind that we are taking to give extra powers to the Intelligence they need to be particularly scrupulous, because there and Security Committee. In ensuring that the security are limitations in how far the evidence is being tested services are held accountable, accountability to Parliament before them. is extremely important. I will not rehearse all the arguments, The best test is that special advocates win in closed which have taken most of today, but the Committee is sessions—I have been fond of citing one or two instances now to be truly a Committee of Parliament. The House as these proceedings have gone along. The last case that of Commons will be able to elect the membership—on the Government lost—that of Abu Qatada, which caused the nomination of the Prime Minister, but members will a tremendous public controversy and still is—was lost be appointed by parliamentary vote. The Prime Minister’s before a judge, Mr Justice Mitting, who does not have nomination is a necessary precaution in case some the reputation of being a melting-heart liberal. Abu unknown feature of a Member of Parliament’s background Qatada won in closed proceedings in a British court, might make him or her a less suitable member of the defeating my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and Committee than would otherwise be the case. the Government in our attempts to remove him for a As we have seen over the years, the Intelligence and trial in Jordan. Obviously the judge was not satisfied Security Committee is one of the most important that torture would not play a part in the proceedings if Committees of the House. Its membership, not surprisingly, Abu Qatada was sent there. The idea that Ministers tends to comprise heavyweight individuals from all have the ability to present things to a judge in circumstances parts of the House of Commons, with a membership where the closed advocates have no hope is mistaken. that is highly respected in all parts of the House for the What we will get is a judgment, whereas what we get at work it tries to do. However, I will not repeat what my the moment is silence. hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home In the main, we have been attacked by people who say Department set out in the debate. We have examined in how much they deplore secrecy and silence, yet the detail the various processes that we now have in hand to effect of being granted a public interest immunity certificate, enable the Committee to require evidence to be given to which is the only course open to Ministers wishing to it and to hold the security services thoroughly to account, withhold evidence that could damage national security, in all the sensible circumstances that can be managed, is total silence. The evidence cannot be used by the while at the same time ensuring that no risk is posed to claimants, cannot be taken into account by the judge national safety and national security. and is not available to the defence. As we all know, cases The most controversial part of the Bill is the one we are being brought with increasing regularity in which debated on Monday, in which we seek to make the the Government have no alternative but to offer no security and intelligence services more accountable to defence, because no evidence can be called, and then to the judiciary and courts of this country, particularly as start negotiating the amount money to be paid in in the last few years a growing number of people have compensation. alleged before our courts malpractice against the security I have never given exact figures for the compensation services and sought substantial damages for events in involved—although some have appeared following which they say our security services were complicit. interviews with me—because the claimants usually want Things are plainly unsatisfactory as they stand, and we to enter into confidentiality agreements on the settlement. have all quoted many distinguished members of the However, there is no harm in telling the House that judiciary to illustrate that. Opponents persuade themselves millions of pounds are being paid out to claimants that they are so against the principle of closed proceedings whose cases have never been tested or challenged. I of any kind that they wish to keep the present law, make no apology for repeating my suspicion—one that which they regard as satisfactory. is held by most objective people—that there is a serious I am afraid I am still at the stage where I do not see risk that some of the money is finding its way to very how on earth we can say that the present law is satisfactory. undesirable quarters, and probably to terrorist groups People bring claims and are prepared to give evidence, in the case of certain plaintiffs. I am not talking about as they are perfectly entitled to, in support of them. all of them, and I will not say which of them this applies 1213 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1214
[Mr Kenneth Clarke] North (Diana Johnson), the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Old to—that was never decided by the courts—but some of Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) and the Minister those people will have links to organisations that will without Portfolio—we have had the benefit of the great have some of that money on them. I do not think that expertise of some senior Back Benchers. the public understand why the Government cannot defend I mention in particular, although they are not here, themselves. That gives rise to genuine disquiet among the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) and the perfectly intelligent liberal members of the general public. right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden We have had a long, satisfactory debate, during which (Mr Davis). I mention, too, members of the Intelligence the Bill has been transformed in both Houses. We are and Security Committee, several of whom are here, still not in total agreement on the wording, but we agree particularly the hon. Member for New Forest East on the principles. The judge will have the widest possible (Dr Lewis) and my right hon. Friend the Member for discretion to decide that he is going to hear evidence in Torfaen (Paul Murphy), who served and brought their closed proceedings only when it is relevant and has to experience to bear on that Committee. Then, of course, be heard to decide the case, and when it would damage there is my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon national security if it were given to the wider world. (Dr Francis) and his colleagues on the Joint Committee Furthermore, the just and effective administration of on Human Rights, who have been forensic in their justice will have to be served by hearing it in private. scrutiny of this Bill since it emerged as a Green Paper I will not repeat all the arguments that were put on almost 18 months ago. We have had the advice of Monday. eminent lawyers too numerous to mention and all pro The overall effect of the Bill will be to improve the bono. I must, however, mention Tony Peto, who not reassurance that we can give to the public and to the only advised members of all parties but found time to world that we uphold the highest standards in this co-author with the hon. Member for Chichester a book, country, and that we seek to maintain them by holding “Neither Just nor Secure”, in time for the Committee accountable those who work on our behalf. I believe stage. Copies, I am told, are still available. that the outcome is not only legally sound but an There is substantial agreement on two parts of Bill. eminently sensible common-sense solution to the obvious Part 1 improves the scrutiny of our intelligence services— practical problems that arise when we wish to combine something that has come a long way since they first the rule of law with the protection of national safety emerged from the shadows in 1994. A point well made and security. I commend the Bill to the House. by ISC members on the Public Bill Committee was that there is a developing relationship between Parliament Several hon. Members rose— and the security services, which tries to balance the need for scrutiny with the effectiveness of the vital job those Mr Speaker: Order. I feel sure that the hon. Member agencies do. The Bill takes that a step forward in enhancing for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) will match the exemplary accountability: it is too little and too slow for some, but brevity of the Minister without Portfolio, and it is it is moving in the right direction. important that he should do so, because at least five or The clauses reforming the Norwich Pharmacal six right hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye and jurisdiction seek to re-assert the control principle and to we must conclude the debate by 5 o’clock. protect the security interests of allied countries—not only in their interest but ours, since the success of our 4.2 pm security services relies on close working relationships Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I am most with their equivalents overseas. Thus far we agree, but grateful for your advice, Mr Speaker. I am sorry that the how can that explain the definition of sensitive information Minister without Portfolio did not give way to me earlier. in clause 15 as information relating to “an intelligence He has again made the assertion that the Government service” rather than to “a foreign intelligence service” as are being forced to settle cases, but his assertion would our amendment proposed? It looks like another attempt have more appeal if they did not regularly settle cases gratuitously to extend the protection given to secret before exhausting all their options and before applying information for reasons other than those given. It is a for a strike-out. I do not think that his admonitions pity we did not have time to debate that matter further— about people seeking confidentiality agreements to hide perhaps even now, the Government will, of their own the amount of compensation that they were getting volition, look at that point. could apply to Mr Belhaj, for example. The Minister is That brings me to the contentious part of the Bill—that to some extent peddling damaged goods again, and that relating to closed material procedures—which regrettably is regrettable as he is one of the last defenders of human leaves this House in a far worse condition than it was rights in his party. I thought he might have had a little when it arrived. Not only have the key safeguards added more to say about article 6 and the common law right to to the Bill by the other place on the advice of the JCHR a fair trial. I must get on, however; I am aware of the been removed, but new and alarming departures from Speaker’s request. the normal standards of civil justice have been put on I want to begin with thanks. This is not a long Bill but the face of the Bill. This has been done as late and as it is a difficult one, given the nature and complexity of obliquely as the Government could get away with. I its subject. It touches on two fundamental concepts: hope their lordships will when the Bill returns to them national security, and the fairness and openness of later this month reimpose their necessary amendments justice system, which we prize and for which this country and fillet the unwelcome additions. is still regarded as a role model. In addition to the There is not time to rehearse every attempt at mitigating Front-Bench teams who have laboured hard—exemplified the effect of secret courts that the Government have by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull rejected, but in brief we have had 18 months of feigned 1215 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1216
U-turns, compromises and Pauline conversions from Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman has again made the Minister without Portfolio. In the end, they amounted references to matters connected with the Liberal Democrats to two important but not fundamental ameliorations. in regard to which he was factually wrong, but I do not The door was opened to judicial discretion by accepting have time to correct them all. However, may I take him the Lords amendment on “may” instead of “must” at up on his point about our being “in a position to do the entry to clause 6. Citizens will, after a series of so”? Let us say that after the next election there were wobbles and changes of heart, now have the same status some Labour involvement in the resulting Government. as the Secretary of State to apply to enter a CMP. The Would he then commit himself to repealing part 2, or is two core changes sought by the Opposition in support he in favour of it when it comes down to it? of the other place have been firmly rejected: judicial balancing between the interests of national security and fair and open justice at the gateway to the CMP; and Mr Slaughter: I certainly would not commit myself to requiring the court to look at other more open, more repealing part 2, because it includes the Norwich Pharmacal tested and more equal ways of proceeding to trial jurisdiction, which we support. before invoking the CMP—the so-called last resort. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the Government were also Finally, let me deal with the new heresies that have unwilling to concede considering public interest immunity been slipped into the Bill during its passage in the as a first option, judicial balancing of evidence once the House of Commons. I have time only to raise the issues CMP process was under way or to support a sensible rather than exploring them; further comment must be a renewal clause designed to give parliamentary scrutiny matter for the other place. to this botched-together part of the Bill. These are all The first of those issues, which was raised by us in matters to which their lordships, including some of the Committee but not dealt with satisfactorily by the Minister, finest legal brains in the country, will wish to address relates to clause 6(4)(a), which currently sets as a condition their minds. I hope and trust they will renew their precedent to the court’s ordering a CMP that attempt to make this part of the Bill work in the interests both of national security and open and equal “a party to the proceedings…would be required to disclose sensitive justice. I hope—I am sure—they will not be deceived by material in the course of proceedings to another person (whether the Government’s flimsy attempts to make purported or not another party to the proceedings)”. concessions on these points. We fear that the provision will be used in part to prevent The recent Government amendment 47, to ask the the use of confidentiality rings, allowing the citizen’s court to consider whether the Secretary of State has own lawyer to be excluded from receiving information. considered PII, is purely cosmetic. The hon. Member It was that eventuality that we sought to prevent through for Chichester described it as bath-time activity for the our amendment 28, which was not reached on Monday Minister without Portfolio—and it certainly comes with but which would have added the words the customary large amount of soap. Similarly, clause 7, inserted in Committee, purports to challenge the CMP “and such disclosure would be damaging to the interests of process continually and expressly on disclosure being national security”. completed. The court could do that of its own motion Our second significant concern relates to Government in any event, but it in no way mirrors the balancing act amendment 46, which was tabled only last week and called for in our amendment 38, which was defeated late was introduced to the Bill on Monday. There has been on Monday evening. no opportunity to debate the amendment, which adds Have these purported concessions been presented to to clause 6(7) the phrase appease the Daily Mail, or—by way of winning the support of the members of the junior coalition party—the “or on such material that the applicant would be required to Liberal Democrat party conference? If so, they have disclose’”. done neither. The press, from left to right, remains That appears to allow an application for a CMP to be hostile to this part of the Bill in its current form. made on the basis of irrelevant material which is not the This weekend, the Liberal Democrats—when they sensitive material that the party applying—usually the are not reviewing their process for leadership selection—will Secretary of State—fears having to disclose. It may vote again on a motion that states, first, therefore allow the court to take into consideration “Liberal Democrat parliamentarians to vote to delete Part II material that is merely embarrassing or damaging to of the Justice and Security Bill”, international relations. The Government have excluded and, secondly, such material from consideration in the CMP, but it “Party policy to remain that the Liberal Democrats will repeal seems it may now be adduced to trigger the process. Part II of the Justice and Security Act (if so enacted) as soon as we are in a position to do so.” If we are right about that, there are other ramifications. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) may have The gisting requirements—which, as the special advocates saved his skin by his votes on Monday, but 50 of his have pointed out in their latest submission, are already colleagues may find the air in Brighton less sweet. Even very weak in the Bill—ask the court to consider, not to the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife require, a gist, and thus allow a case to be decided (Sir Menzies Campbell) may find his comment on Second entirely on the basis of evidence that one party has had Reading coming back to haunt him. He asked the right no right to challenge. In addition, a gist need only be hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) made of material that is disclosable. That presents the “whether he understands that the detailed amendments made in possibility of a CMP being granted on the basis of the House of Lords have been regarded by many people as being non-disclosable material, and the court not even being entirely favourable and reasonable.”—[Official Report, 18 December asked to consider whether it is necessary to gist that 2012; Vol. 685, c. 713.] material to the open lawyer or client. 1217 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1218
[Mr Slaughter] our two countries, and 10 years ago almost to the day I and the then leader of my party were leading the This is not so much a bad Bill as a Bill with a bad opposition to the too-close association with George W. heart. We will not be voting against Third Reading, Bush and the United States in the unhappy venture into because there is much in part 1 that we support, but we Iraq. believe that even at this stage the clauses on CMPs can However, when senior officials in the current American be improved—indeed, must be improved. We look to Administration look us in the eye and tell us that their the other place once again to provide the necessary apprehension about the confidentiality of their sources heart massage. We hope that the Justice and Security is influencing the quality of the intelligence they are Act will secure an effective way of trying difficult cases willing to share with the United Kingdom, should we with serious national security implications without ignore or dismiss that? If that position is then supported jeopardising hard-won and much-prized principles of by American agencies themselves, should we ignore or fair and open justice. We have never excluded the CMP dismiss it? When the UK’s agencies confirm under option, but we believe that it is such an affront to the cross-examination their impression that the quality of basic, open and fair principles of English common law shared intelligence with the United States has diminished, that it must be confined to the tiny minority of cases in should we ignore or dismiss that? When the Americans which proper judicial discretion and other tried and say they are concerned about the risk to the lives of tested methods have been exhausted. their agents or the revealing of techniques and procedures, should we ignore or dismiss that? 4.14 pm Do I like closed material proceedings? I do not. But Sir Menzies Campbell: Part 1 of this Bill is a logical do I think public interest immunity certificates are the extension of a process that began approximately 20 years answer? I most certainly do not. I have re-read chapter 13 ago. The development of the relationship between the of the Scott inquiry into arms to Iraq. It is heavyweight Intelligence and Security Committee and the services, reading, but if any Members wish to become advocates based on respect but also on a clear understanding of for the value and validity of PII, I recommend they read their respective responsibilities, has been a substantial it and find out the true implications. and important constitutional development, and nothing If one wants to avoid embarrassment, a PII certificate should take away from that. is one of the most effective ways of doing so. If one The Minister without Portfolio described me as a wants to prevent a litigant from accessing evidence that heavyweight. It is a description I have been trying to might assist that person in establishing a case, PII is a avoid as I get older, for reasons he will readily understand, very convenient way of doing so. One thing that has but there is no doubt that the matter we are discussing interested me more than anything else in this rather causes considerable controversy, and let me begin by controversial debate has been the fact that many of the saying I do not like part 2 of the Bill. Quite often we interested parties that now express confidence in public have to pass legislation that we do not like, however, interest immunity certificates have previously been the because in our judgment it is necessary to do so, as the first to criticise them. balance favours having the legislation. That is the principle The Bill has improved. Has it improved as much as I on which I base my conclusion in this case, for which I would prefer? Of course not, but how many times can will not be the darling of the Liberal Democrat conference any one of us put our hand on our heart and say that in Brighton, not least because I am going back to my the piece of legislation for which we have voted is constituency—not to prepare for government, but to precisely and exactly as we would have wished? We are explain the consequences of the Government’s decision at a crossroads between principle and necessity, and we to close the Royal Air Force base there, which has been have to ask whether the balance that has now been a source of great pride and has made an enormous struck is acceptable. That, essentially, is a question of contribution to the life of the community. What I will individual judgement and it is that individual judgement say and do is contrary to the expressed—and potential— that our constituents send us to this place to exercise views of the Liberal Democrat conference. I respect every time we are faced with a dilemma of the kind the those views, but I think I am entitled to expect in return Bill obviously creates. Why do I say that? The balance that my party colleagues will respect mine. struck is sufficient because of the developed and controlling I base my views on this difficult matter on three role of the judiciary or the judge in any case and influences: first, the fact that I have been a member of because of the palpable independence of the judiciary the ISC for some years; secondly, my experience as a in these matters. We need only consider the Binyam Member of this House; and, thirdly, the fact that the Mohamed case, the observations of the Master of the Rolls law has been my trade since 1968 and I believe I know and the extent to which the Government of the day and understand it as well as any other Member of this were unable to escape the consequences of the action House. I also believe that I have done as much as raised against them. anyone to pursue the objectives of ensuring the protection As is often the case, distinguished lawyers of sound of the citizen and the preservation of human rights. judgment take different views of these matters. Sometimes, The implication that those of us who support this it seems to me that it is like a game of political contract legislation do so out of a slavish willingness to advance bridge: “If you play your 700 lawyers and my good the interests of the United States has caused me some friend Baroness Kennedy, I will play my Ken Clarke resentment, as has the suggestion that we are a cat’s-paw and my Lord Woolf in an attempt to outbid you.” Such of the intelligence services. Not only are these claims decisions are often as much a matter of instinct as logic. insulting, but in my case they are palpably wrong. In Closed material proceedings have been described as recent years, for example, I have argued very strongly Kafkaesque, but I doubt that those who say so have for an alteration in the extradition arrangements between read Kafka. Others have said that they illustrate a form 1219 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1220 of Soviet-style justice, but a many litigants and accused that things were irretrievably and irrevocably changed persons in the Soviet system would be perfectly happy as a result of that. We have only to look at the incidence to swap their arrangements for those in this country, of proceedings being taken in this country in relation to both north and south of the border. I would prefer not acts of terrorism or proposed acts of terrorism to to have closed material proceedings, but I am satisfied realise the extent of that change. That is why, although I that in this case the protections are such that they are have no love for this legislation, I believe it is appropriate. justified. 4.27 pm Mr Leigh: I very much respect the views of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but is he satisfied, as a Mr Winnick: I have a great deal of respect for the Liberal, with the notion that from now on a litigant will right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife not be allowed to look at the evidence in their case and (Sir Menzies Campbell). In the course of his remarks he cross-examine it on the basis that it will be made available said that we must all exercise our judgment, and like to them? After all, is that not quite a serious procedure other right hon. and hon. Members I do so today. If I that is quite different from the defence withdrawing a may say so without being misunderstood, the right hon. piece of evidence or not adducing it at all? and learned Gentleman put a more reasoned case than did the Minister, but I am strongly opposed to the Sir Menzies Campbell: It is a procedure that already measure, which, however it is dressed up, is a denial of a exists in our law. If my hon. Friend is concerned about system of justice that has been built up in this country the universal application of the principle, that argument over centuries. I have no doubt that the Bill will be was lost some time ago. carried today, and in due course it is likely to be carried into law, but it will be a poor day for Parliament when Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Yes, that it is. argument was lost a long time ago, but is that a reason I speak as a non-lawyer. Whatever limited legal work to pass the Bill into law when it makes the situation I have done outside the House between seats, I am not worse? Once again, it suggests that the view of Parliament qualified as a lawyer, but I understand and I probably is that somehow it is okay to go through a judicial understood from the very beginning that there are process in which the defendant is not fully aware of the certain basic rights when a person is accused—the right case against them and in which the public is totally of defendants and their counsel to know the full case unaware of the issue. It sets a dangerous precedent to and the evidence against them. As I said, this has been have any avoidable secrecy in the judicial system. built up over centuries in this country and it is now being undermined. However limited the cases may be, Sir Menzies Campbell: Since the hon. Gentleman some defendants will not be able to have that right. I puts the point that way, let us turn it around and ask consider that very unfortunate indeed. what he would do. Would he have elements of the conduct and the sources of the security services—sensitive, Under closed material procedure, special advocates and perhaps at great risk to those who provide human will be appointed instead of counsel appointed in the intelligence—exposed in our courts? That seems to me normal way. Defendants will not know the evidence the only possible alternative, or else, as has been suggested, against them, nor will their counsel or solicitors. It is we simply say there is a financial cost to be borne and interesting to note that even special advocates who have we will settle any case that may have the consequence of operated in other fields that have developed in the past causing such sensitive information to be revealed. That few years have argued, as the Minister knows, that that is not justice, as I understand it. That is the failure of is an unfair way of proceeding. the judicial system to reflect the reality of the proceedings We are supposed to be satisfied that only a limited which are brought before us. number of cases will be dealt with in such a way, but that does not satisfy me. If it is only one case, in my view Mr Leigh: It is always open to the defendant to that will be one too many. It is all very well the right choose not to adduce evidence to support his case. If hon. and learned Member for North East Fife being the state does not want to adduce the evidence, nobody satisfied—as I have said, I respect him and his integrity—but is suggesting that it has to reveal the sources of agents why have 700 lawyers, including a large number of QCs, or information. The state simply does not produce it. indicated that they oppose it? Why has the Joint Committee on Human Rights made it clear that it is not satisfied Sir Menzies Campbell: But if the case raises the kind with the outcome? Can they all simply be dismissed as of issues that were raised in the case of Binyam Mohamed, some sort of civil liberties lobby that does not know what does my hon. Friend think the response would be what it is talking about? if the state said, “We’re not producing any evidence at We know that the basis for what has been brought all”? What inference does he think people would draw if before us is the cases of rendition, torture and the no defence was mounted? Of course the inference drawn alleged complicity of British security personnel. Those would inevitably be one of guilt. cases have been debated on various occasions in the I finish by saying this: a lot has happened since the House of Commons, and I have taken part in those twin towers in New York were bombed and thousands debates, but is it not important that we parliamentarians of people died. Not all of it could be described as and, more importantly, the British public know whether something of which we are proud, but the one thing or not the allegations are true? The right hon. and that certainly happened then and which was reflected in learned Member for North East Fife, in defending his many of the speeches that were made here on the special position, said that if we do not follow what is proposed occasion when Parliament was summoned, and much we will not get the necessary intelligence information of what has happened since then, has demonstrated from the United States. Are we really going to decide on 1221 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1222
[Mr David Winnick] receive the resources it needs to carry out that strengthened and increased role. For those who did not hear me say it that basis? Are we really going to decide that what has earlier, I remind the House that the ISC has only eight been built up over centuries, the right of defendants to members of staff, and it has to pursue a number of fair proceedings and the right of their counsel to know inquiries and investigations every year, as well as its what is going on at every stage, should be thrown major annual report. That compares very unfavourably overboard and into the dustbin because otherwise the with the staff support for other Committees and inquiries, United States might not provide us with intelligence such as the 14 staff members for the detainee inquiry, information? And is it in their interests not to do so? which had only one specific issue to investigate, and the I in no way underestimate the acute terrorist danger 12 staff members for the Committee on Standards in facing this country. The atrocities of 7/7 came as no Public Life. surprise to me, and I am sure that is the view of other The ISC is currently funded to the tune of £750,000 a Members who anticipated, as I did, that at some stage year. In the impact assessment published with the Bill, there would be a terrorist attack. Indeed, it might occur the Government cited a revised figure of £1.3 million again—who knows? Yes, we are faced with an acute that reflected their estimation of what the ISC would terrorist danger. I do not challenge that at all. They are need to carry out the extra duties that are being placed demented, murderous psychopaths who want to bring on it in order to reassure the public that proper scrutiny death and destruction to our people. But if Parliament is being carried out. The figure that is actually being has a duty to defend our citizens, which indeed it does, I offered is £850,000—an increase of just over one seventh take the view that it has another duty and another on the existing budget. This would continue to leave the obligation: to defend the rule of law and the traditional ISC worse off than all its international counterparts rights that have been built up in this country. That is and worse off than the bodies that I listed. This is our why I cannot support the measure before us today. I last opportunity publicly to press the Government to believe that it is wrong and that it undermines so much commit to a substantive increase in resources. I hope of the British justice system that I think that we should that the Minister will confirm that the Government’s be ashamed if it gets on to the statute book. Whatever I own published impact assessment will not be discarded can do as one Member to show my opposition to the when it is convenient to do so once this difficult Bill has Bill, I will do it. been enacted. I conclude—earlier than I would have liked, but I feel Several hon. Members rose— that I must—with a single observation. Everybody agrees that the contribution made to the evolution of this Bill Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The debate by the Members of the upper House has been very will finish no later than 5 o’clock, so can all Members considerable. Who can seriously maintain that that sort please show time restraint in order to allow everyone of expertise would be available to people on either side who wishes to speak to do so. of the argument if we had undermined, restructured and, in effect, destroyed the upper House in the way 4.33 pm that was so irresponsibly proposed? If this Bill ends up being better when it gets on to the statute book than it Dr Julian Lewis: I will not go down the route that has was when initially proposed, that will be in large measure so far been followed in this Third Reading debate, other due to the improvements made in another place. We than to observe that we must never forget that we are therefore have reason to be grateful that the other place talking about civil cases, not criminal cases. They are is available, and will remain so in the indefinite future, not cases affecting people’s life and liberty; they are cases to assist us in the development of controversial and in which people, sometimes extremely unsavoury people complex legislation such as this Bill. with links to extremely dangerous organisations, are walking away with very large sums of public money. That is not a situation that can be allowed to continue. 4.38 pm If the Opposition, in their heart, did not know that that Mr George Howarth: It is a great pleasure to follow was true, they would divide the House tonight, but they the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who are not going to do so. brought his customary forensic skills to bear in his Instead, I will concentrate briefly on part 1, which description of what has happened in relation to the Bill. strengthens the Intelligence and Security Committee. I I entirely accept his point about the resources that we believe that it was no coincidence that part 1 was added will need to do the job properly. to the Bill, because there are two distinct and separate I have been a member of the Committee since 2005. elements to the Bill. As my right hon. and learned Friend When we have had the opportunity to discuss oversight the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) with parliamentarians from other parts of the world, said, in what I must say was a masterly exposition of his they have always expressed envy for our system. I think position and, I think, that of most thoughtful people on that our system is now even more enviable. I am proud this side of the argument about closed material proceedings, to be a member of the Committee and think that the the consideration is not that there is an ideal answer, or changes will result in our being able, resources permitting, even a satisfactory answer, but that all we can do is to do a better job than we have done so far. choose the least worst answer. To make that least worst On part 2, as the right hon. and learned Member for answer to the problem more palatable, the strengthening North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) said in a of the ISC was added to the Bill. customarily elegant and well-judged speech, in the best I make no apology to the Minister for coming back to of worlds nobody would want to support closed material something that I, and others, raised quite strongly on proceedings. He explained very well the particular Report: if the ISC is indeed to be strengthened, it must circumstances in which many of us think they are necessary. 1223 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1224
I have been struck in particular by how the views of heard on Monday from the hon. Member for Bedford people such as David Anderson QC have changed. He (Richard Fuller) about a Special Immigration Appeals started out by saying that they were not acceptable and Commission case in his constituency. I remember talking that there was no place for them in our legal system. He to him about it two years ago, when his constituent was then had the opportunity to inspect the files of the cases under detention during the period of the case, which pending and, as a result, he ended up with the same was based on closed material proceedings, under legislation conclusion—in fact, it was almost identical—as the introduced by the previous Government. As I understand right hon. and learned Gentleman, namely that there is it, two years on the constituent is still being detained no ideal solution, so we have to make a choice between under the same legislation, because of evidence he has bad and worse, which is, in effect, what we have done. not had the chance to see. Whatever we think about a I echo what the hon. Member for New Forest East civil case, where money is involved, I hope that everyone has said. I have sat through much of the debate on this here would say that a case involving two years of Bill, although some of us were not allowed on the Bill somebody’s life—curfews and the sort of internal exile Committee, so I did not have the opportunity to debate that we saw with control orders and, to a lesser extent, it there. Much of the tone and rhetoric of the debate on terrorism prevention and investigation measures—is more the Floor of the House on Report and Third Reading serious. We should not allow ourselves to ignore that. would have been entirely appropriate if we had been The Bill has been on a long journey and in that time it discussing criminal proceedings, but we are talking about has got a lot better. Since the Green Paper, a huge civil proceedings. The problem that we have to come to number of changes have been made to what material terms with is that, because the Government are unable would be excluded. There was the incredibly important to defend themselves in civil proceedings—some of switch from the language of public interest in keeping those involved may be of good character, while others something quiet to the language of national security, may be of doubtful character—they end up spending which was definitely a step in the right direction. I do millions of pounds in compensation that might not be not think that anybody in the House wants to see paid in other cases, but certainly would in others. silenced information that would just be embarrassing to In conclusion, my hon. Friend the Member for the Government. I am sure that Governments would be Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) on the Front Bench talked quite capable of arguing that public interest includes earlier about his amendment—which I and other right their not being embarrassed too often. hon. Friends opposed on Monday evening—to, in effect, It is also important that we have excluded inquests. It adopt the Wiley test for fair and open proceedings. He is right that we say to a family who want to know has failed to convince me repeatedly about such a test happened to a loved one that they will definitely know when the alternative is closed material proceedings. the truth and that they will not be told, “Something That makes no sense to me whatsoever. The real alternative, happened, but we can’t tell you.” It was a pleasure to as the Minister without Portfolio said in his opening follow the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), speech, is public interest immunity orders, which would but I was surprised that he, along with some of his mean that nothing got in front of a court or a judge. Labour colleagues and some Conservative support, wished That is the choice. This is a better Bill than it was when to bring inquests back within the scope of the Bill. I am it came from the other place. If there is no Division, I very pleased that that amendment was not put. Had it will support the Bill through my non-vote. been, I hope it would have been defeated thoroughly. Several hon. Members rose— We saw further changes in the Lords. I pay great tribute to the Joint Committee on Human Rights for its Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I think sterling efforts. There are interesting questions about there are still three Members standing. how the Government and the Joint Committee might work together more on some of these issues. We have had the slightly unusual case where the Joint Committee 4.43 pm made some suggestions, the Government claimed to have satisfied them and the Joint Committee disagreed, Dr Huppert: It is fascinating to follow Members’ but all this happened at a very slow pace. Perhaps there comments on the internal dynamics of all parties, but I should be some way for the Committee, its Chair or the will not comment on them. I am not a fan of closed legal adviser to talk to the Government early on about material proceedings, for reasons that have been expressed. draft amendments and to say, “Yes, this would achieve I will not go through all the discussions we have had what we are trying to do, but with some wording during the Bill’s previous stages. differences”, as opposed to disagreeing fundamentally The point has been well made that the measure on whether it achieves the same thing. does not apply to criminal cases, but there is a view that it does in some cases. We are still waiting for absolute clarity on whether it applies to cases of liberty and Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) habeas corpus. I am sure that the Minister without (LD): As a new member of the Joint Committee, and Portfolio will be able to give us the latest update on that. with the Chairman in his place, I would like to say that The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, we would certainly like a routine system that gives us the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James time to look at the Bill and to report, not just to the Brokenshire), made it clear in Committee that the position Government but to the House, so that we can have a has changed somewhat. proper debate that does not get curtailed or circumscribed because there is no time to do either those jobs properly. Even without that, there are lots of cases where this is already in our law and which I find even more alarming, because they affect people’s liberty much more. We Dr Huppert: I agree. That is now firmly on the record. 1225 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1226
[Dr Huppert] Since 2001, there has been a significant game change. Draconian anti-terror laws have been introduced in this As a result of the Joint Committee’s work in the country and many others. As a result, the most grotesque Lords, we saw the switch from “must” to “may”, which miscarriages of justice have taken place, including gave judicial discretion. That was one of the key changes Guantanamo Bay and extraordinary rendition. All the made to the Bill. As a result of our efforts in the Commons, legislation has been enshrined on the basis that we have that led to full equality of arms and the reporting and to protect the security services and prevent what they do review process, which the Minister agreed to take away from seeing the light of day. and then came up with. It is definitely moving in the As I understand it, the Government’s position is that right direction, but there is further to go. I have mentioned they cannot defend cases where there has been British the clarity on the subject of habeas corpus, but there is involvement with other security services in the abuse of still the issue of a renewal process, be it annual renewal human rights when the individuals involved seek restitution or five-yearly renewal, to give the House the chance to in the British courts because it would mean identifying say, “Is it doing just what its proponents want it to do, where their evidence came from. They have therefore or is it going further, as many of us feared it would?” paid out millions of pounds. Instead of admitting that There have been several votes on the principle of the we have been a party to human rights abuses, we are Bill, including one in the House of Lords, when my passing legislation to bring a new process into law. colleagues were joined by a total of two Labour peers I understand the point made by the hon. Member for and one teller and five others, and lost quite convincingly. Cambridge (Dr Huppert), when he said that the Bill is It is a shame that amendment 1, tabled by the hon. not as bad as when it started its journey. My hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), was Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis), the not taken on Monday, because it would have given the Chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, has House the chance to have that vote. I pressed the same done a lot of good work to improve the Bill, as he has principle in Committee. I hope that the Lords will now for many other pieces of legislation. step up and do more on this. Part 1 is a good step forward; However, I feel that the Bill sends out the wrong part 2 is not. I hope that in the process of ping-pong we message. We should have had a debate and a vote on the will be able to make further progress, because sadly it removal of part 2 on Monday. It is regrettable that we seems that it will pass through this House. did not. I am opposed to the Bill because I do not like the secrecy or the protection of those who commit Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): There are still human rights abuses, whether they be in the pay of this two Members left to speak. I call Jeremy Corbyn. state, another state or somebody else. The use of open courts and criminal law where appropriate is far more 4.49 pm satisfactory. I therefore register my dissent against the Jeremy Corbyn: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I Bill. think you are asking me to be very brief. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I am Mr Deputy Speaker: I am suggesting that you split sorry to intervene late in my hon. Friend’s speech. Not the time limit. only did we not vote on part 2; we did not even reach the provisions on Norwich Pharmacal. That means that Jeremy Corbyn: Oh, you are asking me to do maths as a foreign power can now determine whether a British well. I will be extremely brief. court can expose wrongdoings that take place under the I have no quarrel with the right hon. and learned auspices of that foreign power. Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) in respect of his sincerity, honesty or support for human Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend makes a strong rights or how he put his case today. I disagree with his point and it is well put. The relationship with other final point, but I have no quarrel with the judgment he security services appears to take precedence over rights, reached or why he reached it, because I have observed independence and justice in this country. him and his general approach to human rights in the For the reasons I have given and for many others that House for a long time. When I say that I do not agree would take up too much time, I have grave concerns with him, it is not out of anger; it is out of sorrow. I am about the Bill. We have a duty as parliamentarians to sure that in the next five minutes he will change his defend human rights and liberty, and not to cover up mind and take a different approach, or perhaps he will injustice and wrongdoing, which this Bill could end up not. doing. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) put it well when he said that the House 4.53 pm has to make decisions on important issues of human rights, liberty, the rule of law and the role of Parliament. Mr Leigh: I want to have a conversation with my good Successively over the past 30 years, and even before friend, my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest that, we have enshrined in law on many occasions East (Dr Lewis). We all know that the Bill is about civil various forms of secrecy, denials of justice and denials cases and not criminal cases, but as he well knows, of evidence, and people have been wrongly prosecuted because he has been a litigant, civil cases are very as a result. There is a litany of miscarriages of justice important and can affect a person’s whole life. They that many Members of this House have been involved should therefore be treated with great seriousness. in over many years, most of which have centred on We should not approach debates where human rights withholding evidence, secrecy or, in some cases, confessional are involved by saying that the litigants belong to a class evidence. of people whom we find reprehensible. It may be that 1227 Justice and Security Bill [Lords]7 MARCH 2013 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 1228 they are reprehensible, but that argument is often used Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third about minorities. It is used at the moment about Islamists time. and it would have been used about the IRA in the The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 13. 20th century, the civilian German nationals who were interned in 1940, the Fenians in the 19th century, the Division No. 177] [4.57 pm French earlier than that, the Jesuits in the 17th century, the Chartists and John Wilkes. So let us not get into the AYES mindset of, “These are unpleasant people.” They also Aldous, Peter Foster, rh Mr Don have a right to justice. Amess, Mr David Fox,rhDrLiam We should sometimes imagine how we would feel if Andrew, Stuart Francois, rh Mr Mark we were the litigant. Let us suppose that we felt that Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Freer, Mike Bacon, Mr Richard Fullbrook, Lorraine something terrible had happened and our rights had Baker, Norman Gale, Sir Roger been infringed in some way. How would we like a Baldry, Sir Tony Garnier, Sir Edward procedure whereby we went to court and halfway through Baldwin, Harriett Gauke, Mr David the defence suddenly said, “This is all very secret and we Barker, rh Gregory Gibb, Mr Nick cannot share it with you” and the judge said, “Okay, I’ll Baron, Mr John Gilbert, Stephen adjourn that and listen to the evidence on your behalf Beith, rh Sir Alan Goldsmith, Zac Member for New Forest East. You can trust me. I am Bellingham, Mr Henry Goodwill, Mr Robert appointed by the state. Or perhaps we can get some Benyon, Richard Graham, Richard barrister appointed by the state and he can hear it”? Bingham, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen Blackwood, Nicola Green, rh Damian Let us then suppose that a few hours or days later the Boles, Nick Greening, rh Justine judge says, “You haven’t heard this evidence against Bone, Mr Peter Grieve, rh Mr Dominic you, but I think your case doesn’t stand up.” What Bottomley, Sir Peter Griffiths, Andrew happens when he sums up at the end of the case, as of Bradley, Karen Gummer, Ben course in public he cannot adduce all this secret evidence? Brady, Mr Graham Gyimah, Mr Sam How would hon. Members feel if they were the litigant? Brake, rh Tom Halfon, Robert Would they feel that they had received justice? What Brazier, Mr Julian Hames, Duncan does it say for our worldwide reputation if serious Brine, Steve Hammond, rh Mr Philip allegations about torture and so on are made and a Brokenshire, James Hammond, Stephen large part of the case—and the reason why the litigant Brooke, Annette Hands, Greg did not win his case—is determined on the basis of Browne, Mr Jeremy Harper, Mr Mark secret evidence? Buckland, Mr Robert Harrington, Richard Burley, Mr Aidan Harris, Rebecca We are then told that we are putting our security Burns, rh Mr Simon Harvey, Sir Nick services at risk. That is nonsense, because the security Burstow, rh Paul Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan services are like any other defendant, in that they can Burt, Lorely Hayes, Mr John choose what evidence to submit to defend themselves. Is Byles, Dan Heald, Oliver it really beyond the wit of man to defend these cases Cairns, Alun Heath, Mr David satisfactorily, for the most part? A question of the Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heaton-Harris, Chris identity of agents may arise, but nobody is suggesting Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Henderson, Gordon that the agent has to be brought before the court of law, Carmichael, Neil Hendry, Charles or to have himself or his practices identified. Surely Carswell, Mr Douglas Hollingbery, George there are ways in which the case can be defended a lot of Chishti, Rehman Hollobone, Mr Philip the time. I leave that point with my hon. Friend the Clark, rh Greg Howell, John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hurd, Mr Nick Member for New Forest East. I know he takes the rights Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey James, Margot of litigants and human rights seriously, and we are Coffey, Dr Thérèse Jenkin, Mr Bernard taking a serious step today— Collins, Damian Johnson, Joseph Colvile, Oliver Jones, Andrew Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): Crabb, Stephen Jones, rh Mr David Will my hon. Friend give way? Davies, David T. C. Jones, Mr Marcus (Monmouth) Kirby, Simon Mr Leigh: I was about to finish, but I will give way. Davies, Glyn Knight, rh Mr Greg Davies, Philip Kwarteng, Kwasi de Bois, Nick Laing, Mrs Eleanor Mr Cox: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a rule of Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Lamb, Norman law that if the Government are not able to defend an Doyle-Price, Jackie Lancaster, Mark action and the evidence they are not able to put into Duddridge, James Lansley, rh Mr Andrew court goes to the heart of the case, thus making the case Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Leadsom, Andrea unfair, they have the right to apply to strike the case Dunne, Mr Philip Lee, Jessica out? If a case is untriable, the Government are able to Ellis, Michael Lee, Dr Phillip strike the case out. Ellison, Jane Lefroy, Jeremy Elphicke, Charlie Leslie, Charlotte Eustice, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Mr Leigh: Yes, my hon. and learned Friend is an Evans, Graham Lewis, Brandon experienced leading counsel. I would have thought that Evans, Jonathan Lewis, Dr Julian there are various ways in which this problem could be Evennett, Mr David Lidington, rh Mr David resolved. The sky will not fall in. Our security services Fabricant, Michael Lilley, rh Mr Peter are not going to be put at risk. But there is a principle of Fallon, rh Michael Lord, Jonathan natural justice and I think that we should proclaim it. Field, Mark Loughton, Tim 1229 Justice and Security Bill [Lords] 7 MARCH 2013 1230
Luff, Peter Reid, Mr Alan Walker, Mr Robin Williams, Stephen Macleod, Mary Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben Wollaston, Dr Sarah Maude, rh Mr Francis Robertson, rh Hugh Ward, Mr David Wright, Jeremy Maynard, Paul Robertson, Mr Laurence Weatherley, Mike Wright, Simon McIntosh, Miss Anne Rogerson, Dan Webb, Steve Yeo, Mr Tim Menzies, Mark Rosindell, Andrew Wharton, James Young, rh Sir George Metcalfe, Stephen Rudd, Amber Wheeler, Heather Zahawi, Nadhim Mills, Nigel Ruffley, Mr David Whittaker, Craig Tellers for the Ayes: Milton, Anne Russell, Sir Bob Wiggin, Bill Mr Robert Syms and Morgan, Nicky Rutley, David Willetts, rh Mr David Mark Hunter Morris, James Scott, Mr Lee Mosley, Stephen Selous, Andrew Mowat, David Sharma, Alok NOES Munt, Tessa Skidmore, Chris Corbyn, Jeremy Skinner, Mr Dennis Murrison, Dr Andrew Smith, Miss Chloe Crockart, Mike Teather, Sarah Neill, Robert Smith, Henry Hemming, John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Newmark, Mr Brooks Smith, Sir Robert Hopkins, Kelvin Winnick, Mr David Newton, Sarah Soubry, Anna Huppert, Dr Julian Wishart, Pete Nokes, Caroline Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Tellers for the Noes: O’Brien, Mr Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Lucas, Caroline Mr Mike Weir and Ollerenshaw, Eric Stanley, rh Sir John McDonnell, John Dr Eilidh Whiteford Opperman, Guy Stephenson, Andrew Ottaway, Richard Stewart, Bob Paisley, Ian Stewart, Rory Question accordingly agreed to. Parish, Neil Streeter, Mr Gary Bill read the Third time and passed, with amendments. Patel, Priti Stride, Mel Pawsey, Mark Stuart, Mr Graham Penning, Mike Stunell, rh Andrew Business without Debate Penrose, John Sturdy, Julian Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swayne, rh Mr Desmond PARTNERSHIPS (PROSECUTION) (SCOTLAND) Pincher, Christopher Swinson, Jo BILL [LORDS] (CONSTITUTION OF GENERAL Poulter, Dr Daniel Swire, rh Mr Hugo Prisk, Mr Mark Timpson, Mr Edward COMMITTEES) Pritchard, Mark Tomlinson, Justin Ordered, Pugh, John Turner, Mr Andrew That the proviso in paragraph (2)(i) of Standing Order No. 86 Raab, Mr Dominic Uppal, Paul (Nomination of general committees) shall not apply to any Randall, rh Mr John Vara, Mr Shailesh committee on the Partnerships (Prosecution) (Scotland) Bill [Lords].— Rees-Mogg, Jacob Vickers, Martin (Nicky Morgan.) 1231 7 MARCH 2013 Child Support Agency 1232
Child Support Agency people in almost identical situations should never find themselves in very different financial positions solely as Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House a result of Government policy. However, by running the do now adjourn.—(Nicky Morgan.) 1993 scheme concurrently with the 2003 scheme, that is precisely what has happened to Mr Russell, who is 5.11 pm expected to pay almost double the amount paid by Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I am very others in exactly the same financial and personal situation pleased to secure the debate, and to have the opportunity who were assessed post-March 2003. to exchange views with the Minister on the problems Mr Russell contacted my office early in my parliamentary still being faced by parents assessed by the Child Support career. He is a non-resident parent of two children. Agency under the 1993 scheme. I will concentrate on Initially, following his separation from his wife in 2000, how this has severely affected one of my constituents, they agreed a sum for maintenance between themselves. about whose case I have already been in correspondence They arrived at it after he contacted the Child Support with the Minister and the Department. It may seem odd Agency for advice on how to proceed. He says he was to request a debate at the moment, when the Government told that the system was very complex and was about to have recently launched the most recent incarnation of be amended. With that in mind, Mr Russell and his the Child Support Agency. However, I would like to ex-wife used the 1993 scheme as a calculator, but at that stress from the outset that I do not believe my constituent’s point the CSA was not directly involved in the assessment experience is an isolated one, and wish to take this or the administration of the payments. In 2002, for chance to explore what might be a larger, underlying various reasons, that voluntary agreement broke down problem. and the CSA was contacted by Mr Russell’s ex-wife. At It is in the mood of cross-party co-operation that I that point a new CSA case was opened and an assessment wish to conduct the debate, as it would not be fair or made under the 1993 scheme of the time. The resulting helpful to blame any one party or Government for the calculation was a monthly payment by Mr Russell of numerous IT policy failings that have occurred in the just under £585. Again, the CSA was not involved in the administration of the Child Support Agency, from its administration of the payments, which I understand inception to the present day, under different Governments. Mr Russell made on a voluntary basis to his ex-wife. The contentious issue of ensuring that parents support In spring 2003, Mr Russell received a letter from their children after the breakdown of a relationship has Doug Smith, the chief executive of the Child Support undergone repeated, technical and bureaucratic tinkering Agency, informing him of the new assessment scheme—I by successive Governments. expect it was sent to many people in his position. The When established in 1993, the CSA was originally letter stated: designed simply to collect and enforce the child maintenance “The introduction of the new scheme will be a complex task, payments of non-resident parents on a formulaic basis. which must be planned and handled very carefully. When the Government intervention was necessary following a Government is sure that the changes are working well for new long line of failures by the courts to establish a fair and applications, I will write to you again. I will then explain when your child support maintenance will change and what this means consistent process of addressing the situation. However, for you.” the system created out of the Child Support Act 1991 was a product of the previous recession. As a result, it It is clear that Mr Russell and the others who received has been widely accused of being driven with the aim of these letters were continually reassured by the CSA that saving the Government money, rather than collecting it their cases would eventually be transferred to the new for the children to whom it was owed. I remember only scheme, but that never transpired. The reasons given for too well CSA letters dropping through my own letterbox the failure of the administration of the 1993 scheme as a child, and I can tell the Minister that the content of centred on an over-complicated calculations process, an those letters pleased neither my mum nor my dad. inadequate enforcement procedure and multiple IT failures. Despite repeated attempts to fix the problems of the The 2003 scheme was sadly also plagued by IT problems. CSA, I find it unacceptable that there are still people I understand that one issue for the new system was that being assessed under the same system that could not cases from the old scheme could not be transferred to help my own family more than 20 years ago. the new scheme’s simpler assessment process. That resulted in the CSA being left to administer two different systems My constituent, Gordon Russell, was first assessed concurrently, in a twin-track process. When Doug Smith by the CSA in April 2002, and he has paid what the departed the CSA, not long after he wrote that letter, he CSA assessed he was due to pay up until very recently. declared: Because of the date of his original assessment, his payments were assessed under the 1993 scheme. This “I and the senior management team have done a good job over week the 2003 scheme is 10 years old, and yet Mr Russell the last year to mask the worst impact of this IT system from the people who really count in this, who are our clients.” has never been allowed to change over to it. He and I have calculated that, had he been reassessed under the Lord Kirkwood, then Chair of this House’s Select 2003 scheme when he expected to be in 2004, he would Committee on Work and Pensions, disagreed, saying of have paid more than £23,000 less in child maintenance the CSA’s problems: than he has paid as a result of being assessed under the “This is not just about computers. It is a systemic, chronic 1993 scheme. failure of management right across the totality of the agency.” I want to demonstrate how the systemic failures of For eight years Mr Russell paid the amount agreed both the 1993 scheme and the revised 2003 scheme have with the CSA under the 1993 scheme. His expectation impacted on Mr Russell, and possibly many others. It is that he would be transferred to the new scheme was never the Government’s responsibility to ensure that policies met. In 2012, Mr Russell’s daughter celebrated her are, and are seen to be, equitable—that is, that two 19th birthday, which under the CSA’s rules meant that 1233 Child Support Agency7 MARCH 2013 Child Support Agency 1234
[Pamela Nash] maintenance from. I would appreciate clarification from the Minister on whether that is correct. I see him his maintenance payment for his children needed to be nodding. In that case, I want to ask him why that is the recalculated. He was told at that point that his monthly case. The CSA’s own documentation says that that is the payment would be £511 for only one child. He challenged case so that all children in linked cases are assessed that figure, as it was only £74 less than he was paying for under the same scheme. I presume that that is to make it two children. As a result, a new assessment was made, fairer for all concerned. I would argue that, to ensure still under the 1993 scheme, which concluded that he the system is fair, surely all cases in the UK should be was in fact due to pay £618 a month—more than he was assessed under exactly the same scheme. previously paying for both children. At that point Mr Russell Reassessment is made regularly in a whole range of decided he had to take a stand on this inequity, as he changes of circumstances, including parents getting married felt—indeed, he has been advised—that he should be on or moving jobs. I am still not clear about the obstacle to the 2003 scheme, under which he would be paying reassessing a person’s case on a different scheme when almost half that amount. In fact, he could no longer many changes of circumstances result in a recalculation afford to pay that much money and felt that he should anyway. I cannot help but guess that cost might be a not have to. At that point he took the decision to pay factor. I would appreciate it if the Minister could provide the sum of £350 a month, which was what he calculated an estimate of the administrative cost of moving an he would be paying if he had been assessed under the individual from the 1993 scheme to the 2003 scheme. 2003 scheme. As a result, Mr Russell started to accrue In terms of the differences between the two schemes, arrears, and only two weeks ago, his wages were arrested. I find it unacceptable that, in the case of Mr Russell, I For the past few months, I have been acting in support have recently received correspondence from CSA officials of Mr Russell’s case, the essence of which is that there is and from the Minister indicating that, in the view of the a gross inequity between his position and that of someone Government, it is simply a matter of moving between in identical circumstances who just happened to be two equal but different systems. For example, the Minister introduced into the CSA scheme a few months after he stated in a letter to me that: was. To be clear, a non-resident parent like Mr Russell “For every parent who believes they will gain under the 2003 with children of the same age living with a parent with scheme, there is a parent who may lose out. While in most 1993 an identical financial situation to that of Mr Russell’s scheme cases one of the two parents would prefer to move onto ex-wife, and with the same salary and financial the 2003 scheme for financial reasons it would not be fair or commitments as Mr Russell, could pay much less child practical to transfer a case for this reason.” maintenance if they had been assessed post-March That argument was reiterated by Andrew Jackson, a 2003. CSA senior client service manager, in a letter to me I do not see how the Minister or anyone else can stating that argue that that is a fair system. It is unfair to the “for every parent who may believe they will gain under the new non-resident parent who pays double the amount, and rules, there is a parent who may lose out.” it is unfair to the children and parents who receive less Surely what they should be arguing is that all parents, under the same scheme. I would appreciate hearing and all children for that matter, should be treated equally. from the Minister how many non-resident parents are The 1993 scheme was deemed unfit, and a new scheme still paying maintenance calculated under the 1993 scheme, was therefore put in place. That was a replacement and how many of those parents are paying more than improved scheme, and it was never designed to be run they would be paying if they had been assessed under long term alongside the previous scheme. By definition, the 2003 scheme. as a replacement scheme it was introduced as it was The Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act thought to be fairer. I find the Government’s argument 2008 made provision for a new system of child support somewhat bizarre—namely, that for every loser as a to replace both the existing systems and to end the result of the two-track approach to CSA there is a twin-track approach. Subsequently, it was decided that corresponding winner—as if someone gaining from an cases would not be transferred after all from the pre-2003 unfair system somehow compensates those who lose caseload to the post-2003 system as planned. Instead, out. In my opinion, this argument about swings and all cases would eventually move over to the new system, roundabouts to support an indefensible two-track system once it was up and running. That sounds fair, but is not worthy of the Department or the Minister. unfortunately there appears to be a nine-year gap between If the IT problems of the CSA did not exist, would when the decision was first taken under the previous they continue to run two systems on the basis that, on Government and its being implemented by this average, one person’s loss is another person’s gain? Of Government, and 2017 is the date when all cases are course not. If the administrative, managerial and IT planned to have been moved over. That means that problems did not exist at the CSA, we would have had a cases such as that of my constituent will have to continue single system many years ago. Yes, within such a system, under the current arrangements unless there is some there could be some winners and losers, but the important other reason to convert the case. That would normally point would be that everyone would be assessed under apply if a parent on the pre-2003 system made a new the same rules. I appreciate that that is what the new application to the CSA in relation to a second child, in system coming into play is planning to do but, as I said what is known as a linked case. earlier, people will have to wait a long time before they My understanding is that it is impossible to change go on to it, which is not good enough. from the 1993 scheme to the 2003 scheme, or indeed to The most recent correspondence I received from the the new scheme, unless the paying parent has another CSA about this case was from a complaints senior child or the receiving parent has another child with review manager and it is littered with serious errors another non-resident parent who they are claiming about the basic facts of the case, including the accusation 1235 Child Support Agency7 MARCH 2013 Child Support Agency 1236 that Mr Russell has been paying only £350 a month since why letters of the sort she mentioned from Doug Smith April 2002, when in fact he paid the full assessed were sent. Those letters were subject to the caveat that amount up to June 2012. Since then, he has chosen to pay when the Government were convinced things were in what he would pay if assessed under the 2003 scheme. I order, those people would be moved across—but they appreciate that this is a small and specific example of a never were. In fact, it was the independent Henshaw mistake, but how can my constituent—or, for that matter, report that finally put the nail in coffin of this idea back anyone—have faith in the CSA’s ability to run such an in 2006. So well into the period of the last Government, important system when it gets simple facts wrong in it was decided that it was simply not feasible to bulk respect of a serious complaint by a Member of Parliament transfer people across. As the hon. Lady will have leading to months of correspondence between myself gathered—now there are more than a quarter of a million and the organisation? of cases; back then, there were far more—the IT issues, In conclusion, the system was changed in 2003 because the compatibility of the data and the whole difficulty the previous one was not working—it was not fit for involved in moving things across meant that bulk transfer purpose and it was unfair. The figures I have cited this and bulk case closure were simply not an option. evening are not just figures on a balance sheet, and The hon. Lady asked why, if a single constituent had cannot be put down simply to bad luck if a person was calculated that he would pay less under the 2003 system, assessed under the 1993 scheme. Successive Governments we could not just transfer that one person. Within the have had a decade to fix this, and lives have been ruined total of 261,000, there will be an awful lot of people in the meantime. I hope that the Minister is able to who are potentially in that position. I do not know how answer some of the points I have raised, particularly about many precisely, because we have not made 261,000 how many people are still paying maintenance assessed calculations; if we had, we could probably transfer all under the 1993 scheme. Why exactly have all those the people concerned. However, it is clear that there will people never been switched over to the 2003 scheme? be a proportion of people of whom that is true, and a What are the Government going to do to stop this proportion of whom the opposite is true. situation continuing and to compensate those who have suffered as a result? How long will it be before those I was pleased when the hon. Lady rightly said that assessed before March 2003 are moved on to the latest what matters is the well-being of the children. A unilateral scheme? If the 1993 scheme was found to be unfair, why case-by-case closure is currently against the law, but if did the Government continue to use it for another we changed the law to enable all the people who did not 10 years? fancy their ’93 assessment because they thought it was bigger than the 2003 assessment simply to transfer to the latter, tens of thousands of children—perhaps hundreds 5.27 pm of thousands—would receive less child maintenance. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions The position would be asymmetrical, because parents (Steve Webb): I congratulate the hon. Member for Airdrie with care who calculated that they were receiving more and Shotts (Pamela Nash) on securing this debate and under the old system would presumably not have a right on the assiduity with which she has represented her of veto. All the non-resident parents who were paying constituent. I have looked into the individual case and more under the old system than they would under the corresponded with her a number of times about it. I will new one would be transferred, although there would be frame my remarks in a more general way, however, so as a massive take-up problem: people would be asking us not to disclose any further personal information about to do calculations and all the rest of it. If people opted her constituent, save to say that if the Child Support to be transferred in tens of thousands of cases, tens of Agency has sent a recent letter containing factual errors, thousands of children would receive less money and no I hope she will send me a copy as I would be happy to one would receive more, because no one would move in look further into that specific issue. the other direction. The hon. Lady raised an important point about the I hope the hon. Lady recognises that that would fact that there are still 261,000 cases of people being create a different kind of unfairness. How is it fair for assessed under the 1993 rules. Perfectly reasonably, she someone who would pay less under the new system to said that she did not want to approach the debate in a be able to move to that system, while someone else—a partisan manner, and neither do I. I will simply observe, mother, for example—who would receive a larger amount chronologically as it were, that the 2003 system came in. under the new system because the maintenance would I shall say more about the reasons for that, but it was be higher, as it will be in some cases, cannot do the not because the 1993 system was felt to be fundamentally same? That person will then persuade her Member of unfair or that the figures the system produced were Parliament to hold an Adjournment debate and say, somehow wrong. Rather, it was about the massive “It’s not fair. My ex-husband could transfer because he bureaucracy and complexity of assessing anybody, which wanted to pay less, and I should like to be in the system meant vast amounts of time were required and vast in which I receive more. Why can he do what he wants amounts of evidence had to be gathered. That is why the and I cannot?” decision was taken by the previous Government to streamline all that—not because the answers of the 1993 system were inherently wrong or worse than under the Pamela Nash: I would argue that if non-resident 2003 system, but because of the awful amount of time parents are to be allowed to ask to be transferred, and effort involved. It was fundamentally a streamlining resident parents should have the same right. process. Will the Minister clarify his position on cases in The original intention was, as the hon. Lady said, to which there is such a large discrepancy between the migrate people across, and for several years the previous amounts being paid under the two schemes? How can Government sought to do that in good faith. That is both schemes be seen to be fair when according to one 1237 Child Support Agency7 MARCH 2013 Child Support Agency 1238
[Pamela Nash] process to make sure we do not disrupt the maintenance that is flowing. We are thinking very carefully about the assessment my constituent should be paying £350 a sequencing of the way we do that. month and according to the other he should be paying We will introduce charges for the use of the statutory nearly £600 a month? scheme, particularly on the non-resident parent. Again, the idea is to encourage both parties to reach a family-based Steve Webb: The aim of the ’93 system was to produce arrangement, rather than to use the statutory system. a tailored figure, and it took account of factors such as Both parents can avoid collection fees entirely by paying housing and travel costs. I believe that in some cases directly using Direct Pay. Therefore, in the vast majority nearly 100 items of data were required to calculate the of cases we will give the paying parent the opportunity assessment. The incomes of the new partner and the to pay the receiving parent directly. This Direct Pay parent with care had to be assessed, for instance. There option will give parents access to the statutory service in are different answers to different questions. If those a way that can help rebuild trust between them. doing the calculations take the view that all the complexities of people’s circumstances should be taken into account, We want to avoid the mistakes of the past. We they will come up with one number; if they take the acknowledge that some parents are better off under the view that what is wanted is a rough and ready, quick ’93 scheme and some are better off under the ’03 calculation—15%, 20%, 25%; now let us get on with our scheme, but I stress for the record that these are statutory lives—they will come up with a different number. Is one assessments, so people cannot say, “I don’t think the right? Is the other one right? Who is to say? law as it stands is fair, so I will decide what I will pay.” These are legal liabilities, so the amounts are owed; it is It could be argued that a comprehensive system is not a matter of choice, I am afraid. I appreciate the fairer because it is tailored to individual cases, but the point that some people, on both sides in many cases, calculation takes for ever. The last Government took will feel the sum is unfair. That is why if somebody does the view that we were spending all our time doing not pay what they are legally required to pay, arrears complicated sums instead of getting child maintenance build up, and that will remain the case. to people. The change was not based on the view that the 1993 figures were wrong—that they were inherently The previous Administration originally planned to unfair to one party or another. move all 1993 scheme cases to the 2003 scheme, but it The hon. Lady asked about the process of migration. was simply not possible clerically to move 250,000 or so That is obviously important to her constituent, and I cases one at a time. We want to focus our energies on should probably put something on record now, because getting the new scheme up and running and migrating we have not said a great deal about it so far. The new everyone to it—except where we can secure family-based system is intended to turn things around. That may be arrangements—rather than put a lot of effort into more difficult in the case of those who have been in the moving people from the previous-but-one scheme into system for a decade or more, but, in general, we are the previous scheme. trying to make sorting things out the default. We are trying to ensure what happened in the past For many years the couple to whom the hon. Lady does not happen again. We are using tried-and-tested— referred seem to have talked to each other and resolved standardised—software, as one of the problems with matters. We know that children do better when mum the ’93 system was that it was bespoke and unlike and dad sort things out between themselves, and our anything anyone else was using. We are also introducing goal is to make the child maintenance service a last the 2012 scheme gradually through a pathfinder approach, resort. We are investing resources in help and support so that any issues can be picked up at an early stage, for separated families—in web applications, advice services before we have a large case load. and so on—to help people to sort things out for themselves, The 2012 scheme, as I mentioned, is now open and and if they contact us, we will signpost them and advise progress so far has been good. We will gradually move them on how they can do that. Clearly, however, some people across and we have been consulting on the exact will still come to us, and about 1 million cases remain in sequencing. I cannot give the hon. Lady a date for when the system, so we will have a migration process. Let me her constituent’s case will be moved across, but our idea explain how that will work. is to contact people six months ahead of the point at Pre-Christmas, in December, we started the process which their case would be due to be closed. We will for new cases where there were four or more children. It encourage them to reach a family-based arrangement is a very slow pathfinder system trying to learn from the where possible and will support them in doing that. If ’93 and ’03 failures. Those cases will go straight into the that is not possible, six months afterwards the case can new system and later this year, when we are convinced be reopened under the 2012 system, which is designed that it is working—it is going well so far—we will bring to be simpler and contains charges to encourage people in the two-child-and-above new cases, and later still in to come to their own arrangements. the year all new cases. Once we are convinced all of that Another point that I think is relevant to her constituent’s is working, we will begin the process of migration. case is that the 2012 scheme uses more up-to-date When we close cases under the existing two systems income information. One problem with cases on the ’93 and bring them into the new system, we will encourage system is that they are often stuck in the system untouched, parents to reach family-based arrangements. Cases will so the maintenance assessments get very out of date, be closed over a three-year period from next year, and and they can be based on very old income data. I do not where maintenance has been hard-won—where a non- know whether that is the case with her constituent, but resident parent has tried quite hard not to pay but we if someone asks for a reassessment and finds that their have got payment—we are thinking very carefully about liability has gone up, that is often because the previous how we can manage the case closure and migration assessment was based on very old wage data. 1239 Child Support Agency7 MARCH 2013 Child Support Agency 1240
The beauty of the new system is that it will use most What we mean by “for every one, there is another” is recent tax return data from HMRC. Rather than our that for every parent with care who would receive more having to go to a non-resident parent, ask for wage under the new system, there is a non-resident parent who slips, wait for them to come back, process them and so would pay less under it. Simply allowing case-by-case on without reassessing the assessment, those data will migration, quite aside from being unlawful, would create feed through automatically to us. Once a year on the a different set of injustices. That is my conclusion: we anniversary we will revisit the assessment and update it want to get as quickly as we can to a new streamlined with the latest income information so people will not system that is fair to all and in which we do not have have the rude shock of a sudden hike or drop in their either of the legacy systems while learning the lessons liability, which will be based on the latest income from the past. As the hon. Lady rightly said, the process information. has not worked as well in the past as it should have The hon. Lady is absolutely right that there is a set of done and we want to get to the new system as quickly as issues for the people on the ’93 system who are paying we can. more than those on the ’03 system. Equally, a set of Question put and agreed to. parents with care would love to be on the ’03 system but are stuck on the ’93 system. It is important to realise that and perhaps we have not communicated it in correspondence as clearly as we might. We are not saying that because the computers cannot do it there is 5.40 pm no issue of fairness, but there are multiple issues of House adjourned. fairness.
317WH 7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 318WH
had a meeting with shop stewards from Coulport and Westminster Hall Faslane this morning; Martin McCurley, Jim Conroy and Richie Calder are all here in the public gallery. I Thursday 7 March 2013 name them so that their management will know that they have actually turned up here.
[MR PETER BONE in the Chair] Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Member should not be doing that, as he well knows. Scottish Referendum (Trident) Mr Davidson: Neither I should. The shop stewards [Relevant documents: The Referendum on Separation for said to us this morning that they have 50 years of Scotland: Terminating Trident—Days or Decades? Fourth security from the United Kingdom for those employed Report of the Scottish Affairs Committee, HC 676, and at Faslane and Coulport. They outlined to us that they the Government Response, HC 861, and the response understand that they might get answers from those from the Scottish Government, contained in a letter from seeking separation in November, after the publication the Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon MSP, to the of a White Paper, or maybe earlier, but they have not Chair of the Committee, copies of which are available in been promised any clear, categorical assurances before the Vote Office.] that time. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Greg Hands.) Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): Is it not the case that it is about the security not just of existing jobs but of 1.30 pm additional jobs over the next few years, as the new submarines are based there? Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): This debate is about the consequences of separation. Mr Davidson: Indeed. That is a very valuable point. Independence would mean the separation of the United At the moment, 6,700 jobs are based at Faslane and Kingdom armed forces into a Scottish section and a Coulport. Under the existing United Kingdom Government United Kingdom section. The Select Committee on proposals, which I understand are supported by all Scottish Affairs therefore felt that it was important that parties, that number would rise to 8,200 in the fairly we thoroughly explored what the consequences of near future. We have the opportunity to balance 50 years separation would be for the people of Scotland. of security of employment and job growth with the As Members will no doubt be aware, we have been United Kingdom on one hand and the great unknown conducting a number of inquiries, partly about procedure of separation on the other. but now mainly on issues of substance. It is our view that the people of Scotland must have put in front of Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Does my hon. them the full information about the consequences of Friend share my concern about the devastating impact separation. I am therefore particularly grateful for this that the loss of those jobs would have on the communities debate, because Trident is obviously one of the most from which employees come, such as Helensburgh, important single issues that will play a part in the Clydebank and Inverclyde? dialogue after separation, should it happen. Mr Davidson: Indeed. Some 6,700 jobs would be lost. The theme of our approach is taken from the words To be fair, many are naval jobs in uniform. Presumably of Blair Jenkins, leader of the Yes Scotland campaign, many of those people would be relocated elsewhere, and who said in a Committee hearing: therefore would not be directly made redundant, but “I think that in any referendum the onus is on the side of the the other jobs would obviously be lost if Faslane and campaign that is proposing a change to make the case for change. I have always accepted in this referendum that there is a fair onus, Coulport were closed, as would all the support jobs if you like, on the yes campaign to make the case for change.” in the community. It has been estimated that up to The Committee agrees. We believe that those arguing 11,000 jobs could be lost. The information that I have for separation must make the case for change by putting seen makes that figure higher; it suggests a multiplier of all the facts before the people of Scotland. roughly 2.5 plus the additional jobs, or potentially about 19,000 jobs lost in the Faslane and Coulport Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): area, which will clearly have a horrendous impact. It I thoroughly agree with what my hon. Friend is saying, has not been made obvious what would replace those but does he not agree that it is extraordinarily complacent jobs or what alternative naval facilities would be provided of the Ministry of Defence not to even consider the there. issue or be prepared to discuss it at all? Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Before the Mr Davidson: The Committee has made it clear that hon. Gentleman moves on, does he share my concern we believe that both sides in this debate—the Government and consider it to be extraordinary that the gentlemen and the various Ministries and those arguing for who appeared before the Select Committee this morning separation—should indicate much more openly than have been seeking answers from the Scottish Government they have been willing to until now exactly how they to perfectly reasonable questions, and that the Scottish intend to respond to various initiatives. In this case, Government, despite the fact that they have been having examined the matter in our report, we believe considering separation for Scotland for decades, have that the initiative now passes to those arguing for separation. refused to give any answers to those questions for at Our report is entitled “Days or decades?” because we least another eight months? Does he agree that it is believe that nuclear Trident could effectively be terminated extraordinary that after decades of plans, it will take in either days or decades. The onus now lies on the another eight months to even consider answering important Scottish National party to clarify which it prefers. We questions? 319WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 320WH
Mr Davidson: My understanding is that the SNP has Mr Davidson: The key word is “realistically”. We existed for some 80 years. It seems somewhat incredible have not had any estimates from the Scottish Government that it has not thought through its plans for how separation that we regard as solid; we have had to search around. would affect the armed forces in Scotland as a whole On the point about the number of jobs directly involved and Faslane and Coulport in particular, although it is with Trident, the UK Government have made it absolutely fair to point out that one of the shop stewards at clear that, on the solid trade union principle of “one Coulport, in an e-mail exchange with the convenor of out, all out”, if the Trident missile-firing submarines shop stewards at Rosyth, said of closure: were removed from Faslane, everything else would go—the “I’d sacrifice for the better of the country.” Trafalgar submarines, the Astute submarines and the headquarters. Within the United Kingdom, the intention That was from an SNP councillor who is also a shop is not only for 50 years of secure employment, but for steward at Coulport, Mr Christopher McEleny. In his Faslane and Coulport to become a centre of excellence view, the sacrifice of those jobs would be worth it in the for submarines for the entire United Kingdom. The new interests of Scotland. To be fair, he said that he did not Trafalgar boats would therefore be moved there as and think it would actually happen, and whether he meant when, as well as the training facilities currently scattered Coulport jobs or Rosyth jobs is not entirely clear, but he throughout a number of locations in the United Kingdom, was prepared to sacrifice a lot of other people’s jobs in so that everything connected with submarines would be the interests of separation. on the west coast of Scotland. That is why the number The report is worth summarising quickly before I of jobs involved would go up from the current 6,700 to move on to other comments. It is our view, from the 8,200 over a period. It is security and growth with the evidence that we heard, that nuclear weapons in Scotland United Kingdom and the great unknown with separation. could be disarmed within days and removed within To return to the question of removing the nuclear months. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] I am glad to deterrent from Scotland, the statements made so far hear Scottish Nationalist Members cheering that. If have the merit of clarity: the SNP wants to remove they accept that analysis, it means that there will not be Trident. Alex Salmond, the First Minister, has said that any dispute about the fundamentals; it will then be a he wants a written constitution that includes question of political will. “an explicit ban on nuclear weapons being based on Scottish We as a Committee have accepted the analysis of territory”. the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament that Interestingly, that does not include a ban on nuclear with the co-operation of the Royal Navy and the UK weapons visiting Scottish territory. The SNP might well Government, the process of disarming within days and intend Scotland to be similar to Norway and Denmark, removal within months could be both speedy and safe. which have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy and therefore Of course there would be consequences. We understand allow nuclear weapons in their waters and on their soil that it is likely to mean the unilateral nuclear disarmament while pretending that they are not. No doubt we will get of the United Kingdom, which I notice SNP Members clarification on that in due course. have also cheered, because the construction of facilities The key issue for us is, what are the parameters? Our elsewhere would take up to 25 years or so. role as a Committee is to provide information and An insistence upon the speediest possible removal of evidence to the people of Scotland to inform their nuclear weapons from a separate Scotland would obviously decisions. If the nuclear weapons are to be removed, we have consequences for other negotiations taking place wished to establish the parameters within which that at about the time of separation. Trident is the elephant could be done. At one end of the range, according to in the room. It is likely to be the single most expensive the CND, it could be done quickly; at the other end, it item under discussion, and would spill over into all the would require 20 to 25 years to build alternative facilities. rest of the dialogue, debate and discussion. The hon. Somewhere within there, in the event of a separation Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), a former decision, will come the solution. People in Scotland, in Defence Minister, whose presence in the Chamber today particular those employed at Faslane and Coulport, we welcome, gave us clear and explicit evidence of that. deserve to be told now which of those alternatives is The conclusion of our summary, therefore, was that we favoured by the SNP; it is then the responsibility of the wanted the UK Government and the Scottish Government UK Government to respond with their reaction. The to come clean with people in Scotland as quickly as Committee does not accept that it is reasonable for the possible about the consequences of separation and the UK Government not to say anything in such circumstances, removal of Trident. The onus now lies with the SNP but we understand that the first step has to be taken by and the Scottish Government to tell us the timetable the SNP,the forces of darkness in the Scottish Government. that they intend to apply. The CND, from its evidence, clearly believes that the missiles can be disabled within days. Apparently, there Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): I is a fuse thing that can be pulled out, which effectively congratulate my hon. Friend on his contribution so far. disables the missiles and means that they will not work As he is aware, Trident is one of the systems based at any more. Those to whom I cannot refer will no doubt Faslane. There are different views, which the Committee tell me that it is much more complicated than that, but has no doubt heard, of how many jobs are directly that is the gist. There seemed to be general agreement reliant on Trident, but we also have seven Astute class that those fuses I pulled out could be put in the boot of submarines, eight Sandown class minehunters and the my car—for the interest of the population, a Vauxhall administrative headquarters at Faslane. Has he had any Vectra, which is not a particularly specialist vehicle—and indication from the Scottish Government which parts driven down to England, therefore being removed from they would wish realistically to retain? Scotland. In such circumstances, the missiles would not work so, within eight days, the missiles could be disarmed, 321WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 322WH defused, defanged or whatever simile is wished. It would lines of the separation budget could not be agreed then take eight weeks for the warheads to be removed without this issue also being agreed. Everything would from the submarines—basically, a big hand comes down, have to be settled together. grabs them up and puts them down. Again, the process is a bit more complicated, but that is the gist. Believe it Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): or not, that takes people eight weeks. It is then anticipated The Select Committee took evidence on relocation, and that the removal of the nuclear weapons from Scotland perhaps its Chair could enlighten me on exactly where would take two years—a figure based on the existing and by whom that relocation would take place. The timetable for the replacement of the missiles, because document, “Trident: Nowhere to Go”, analysed every they regularly get lifted out of the submarines in Coulport, option and historical document going back 30 years with the warheads taken off to be polished or whatever, when planning was less stringent, and concluded that to be recycled and come back up. there was no alternative to Faslane anywhere in English The weapons, therefore, could realistically be removed waters. It would be useful to know why the Committee from Scotland within two years. The subsequent disarming thought there was a possibility of relocation in England. and so on would be a longer process, but that would take place in England; that would be the remaining Mr Davidson: The Committee took the view that United Kingdom’s position. No one has come forward there was a possibility of relocation elsewhere in the to say that that timetable is not viable, feasible or safe. It United Kingdom, not just in England. Locations in comes down to a question of political will. The Scottish Wales were also mentioned. Francis Tusa, editor of Government could not do that on their own, however, Defence Analysis, was perhaps most optimistic about and they would require technical assistance from the how to do that. He pointed out helpfully that the Royal Navy and the Atomic Weapons Establishment in loading facility at Coulport, which unloads nuclear Aldermaston and elsewhere, but if there was co-operation, weapons and so on, is a floating dock. By definition, it that could be achieved. That is one parameter: the floats so it could presumably be moved, and the facility weapons could be removed within that time scale. would not require complete rebuilding in the way that those of us who had not realised that a floating dock The other parameter, if the United Kingdom wishes floated had assumed. The matter might not be as difficult to retain a nuclear, at-sea deterrent, relates to the need as it appears, but we are not experts, and it might turn to construct alternative facilities elsewhere in the United out that that cannot be done, in which case the parameter Kingdom or to base the missiles abroad in some way. would change, but it is clear that if it were relocated that Some who came to see us suggested that the missiles, would take 20 to 25 years. warheads or boats could be based in France or the United States. The responses we have had, however, Katy Clark: I am incredibly interested in what my indicate that that is not as realistic as was once anticipated, hon. Friend is saying. My understanding is that one so we are setting that option aside. We therefore want to difficulty is storage, because at the moment a hill or a focus on the other parameter, which is the replacement mountain is used. One proposal seems to be to rebuild of Faslane. such a mountain elsewhere in England or Wales. Did Nuclear weapons require three functions: support the Committee receive evidence on that ? facilities, docking, including loading, and maintenance. A number of alternative locations have been looked at: Mr Davidson: We visited the storage facility, which is Devonport, Barrow, Milford Haven and a number of indeed built into the side of a hill but, with respect, it is others. Opinion varies about the amount of work necessary not the only hill in the United Kingdom. There are hills for a relocation. One argument is that the facilities and mountains in quite a lot of locations in the United could be split. At the moment, Faslane and Coulport Kingdom. The search for hills is not the main constraint, are clearly separately facilities, but they are obviously and several locations were identified. proximate. The question is whether to have a 20-mile The matter can be split into different parts. One is the gap and so on, or more. It has been generally accepted submarines, and we believe that their maintenance could that that could be done, but planning requirements are probably be done in places such as Devonport, where much more stringent now and our evidence indicated there are enough bays and so on. The warhead element that 20 to 25 years is the most realistic estimate of how is slightly more complex and there are two issues. One is long it would take the United Kingdom to build loading and a floating dock; the other is storage. There replacement facilities, and there is an issue of whether it is storage at Coulport, but I understand—we were not would want to do that. The political and economic told much—that weapons are not held there for an costs of relocating Trident would be huge, and some of enormously long time. They are polished and whatever the arguments suggest that part of those costs would be at Aldermaston, then moved to the hill, which is rather borne by a separate Scottish Government. The entire Hobbit-like, and then loaded on to submarines. They cost of relocation would be imposed on the United are not kept there for an enormously long time. It Kingdom by a separate Scottish Government, and the would be possible to store them at Aldermaston or United Kingdom’s view is that it would be reasonable elsewhere, although the journey would be longer and for the Scottish Government to pay at least part, if not less convenient in many ways and perhaps less safe, but all, of those costs. that would be for the Ministry of Defence and the UK I expect that that view would not be shared by the Government at the time to determine. Scottish Government, but it would become part of the Our view was that that could be done. It would take a discussion and debate, and part of the argument. My long time and it would be expensive. Professor Walker understanding is that the view on both sides is that of St Andrews university helpfully said, “Don’t ask me nothing is settled until everything is settled, so other to put a figure on it. I have no idea at all, but certainly it 323WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 324WH
[Mr Davidson] of clicks on my phone, but they have not so far spoken in quite that way. I thank the hon. Lady for drawing my would be billions of pounds.” Francis Tusa thought it attention to that point—I must monitor my phone would be much less and said, “I have seen reports that it more closely. I am sure that NATO will be listening to would cost £50 million. No, it wouldn’t. It would cost this debate and, no doubt, waiting—as are the work much less.” The then Minister for the Armed Forces, the force in Faslane and Coulport—to hear what the SNP hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), has to say about all this. [Interruption.] There was a pointed out that a recent upgrade of the facilities at mumble from a sedentary position by one of the SNP Faslane had cost £3.5 billion. That was just for an Members. Would they like to clarify that? No—I thought upgrade, so presumably the cost of replacing it would not. be much higher. We then come back to the extent to The alternative provision for Faslane and Coulport which that forms a major part of the dialogue between has not been made clear. In the resolution that was the Scottish and UK Governments after a separation passed at the SNP conference recently, there was the decision. proposal—indeed, the commitment—that the SNP in a I have touched on France and the United States. The Scottish Government would seek to have submarines. other alternative we looked at was maintaining a United However, the SNP has also said that it would not wish Kingdom base in a separate Scotland, similar to the to have any nuclear submarines, so the question comes Holy Loch base that the United States had, and the up of what sort of submarines it would have. Ireland, United Kingdom’s sovereign territory in Cyprus. That New Zealand and Iceland all have no submarines. Denmark would have to be negotiated in the spirit of the Edinburgh has just decided to decommission its submarines. The agreement, which would require best endeavours on Norwegians have six diesel-electric submarines. If the both sides. Scottish navy are to have diesel-electric submarines, two The matter is not as straightforward as it seems main issues come up: first, where will they be built, and because obviously not just the base would have to be secondly, within what time scale? secure. Access and so on would have to be secure, and a Some of us went along to see the BAE Systems substantial amount of water would have to be UK shipyard staff and management, and when we suggested sovereign territory, at least during the period when to them that they could turn their hand to building submarines were leaving. There could be an interesting submarines, they laughed, because they thought that situation if the Scottish Government instructed Strathclyde the idea was so ludicrous. Other experts said to us that police to beat back protestors from outside a UK-owned any submarines built in the Clyde yards would be the and maintained Faslane base. The situation could be most expensive submarines in the world, ever, on the quite complicated, and not one that the Scottish basis that they were a one-off—whether there are four Government would want. or six. They said that the yards were not equipped to If a Scottish Government wanted to join NATO, they build submarines, and it would require starting completely would have to be part of a nuclear alliance. The from scratch. The style of building submarines is, apparently, compromises that that might involve have not been fully from the inside out, and for ships, it is the from the explored. The United Kingdom and Scottish Governments outside in. The technologies are different. Of course, it must be much clearer about such matters, particularly could be done—with the appropriate amount of money the relationship with NATO. The Scottish Government and political will, Hall’s of Broxburn could build have indicated that they are enthusiastic about the submarines—but that is not to say that it would be concept of joint air bases with the RAF and the Scottish financially or economically viable. Anything could be air force sharing facilities. The Ministry of Defence and done with enough will, commitment or finance. others have said that there is an issue of control, and if We have to assume that the diesel-electric submarines the UK Government wanted to bomb somewhere that would be bought from the main supplier, which is the Scottish Government did not want them to bomb, Germany. Therefore, we would have the Scottish navy would they have a sovereign right to do so, or would the being equipped with U-boats at a cost that is undetermined Scottish Government be able to block the runway? and to a timetable that is equally unclear. We have no Joint and shared bases are complicated, and even idea when U-boats from Germany would be able to more so if there were any suggestion that that would be arrive in Scotland to provide jobs in maintenance at applied to a nuclear base. We took the view that that Faslane or Coulport. Of course, we would then have was a dead end, and that a shared base on Scottish circumstances in which there was a huge gap between territory or a UK sovereign base on Scottish territory the departure of the submarines from the Royal Navy were not runners. We will wait to hear from the Ministry and the arrival of the submarines from Germany, unless of Defence and the Government in due course when the the SNP completely abandons its commitment to remove Scottish National party has brought forward its proposals. the submarines from the Clyde as speedily as possible. It is possible to see a compromise being reached, which Mrs Laing: Has the hon. Gentleman had any indication would require the SNP to undertake a U-turn on its from NATO that if a separate Scotland took action to commitment to remove the submarines as quickly as eject an important part of NATO, such as Trident, from possible. That is the only way in which we could see any Scottish shores it would be welcome in NATO? Has he possibility of submarine jobs being retained. had any indication from NATO that a Scottish state The SNP has also said that it wants to have ships at behaving in that way would be welcome in NATO? Faslane, which is not unreasonable. It is unclear as yet what ships it desires to have, how the Scottish navy Mr Davidson: I must confess that NATO has not would be broken up, and, at the moment, whether any communicated with me directly on that matter. They Scottish naval vessels would be put anywhere other than might very well listen to me, and I have noticed a number Faslane. As those familiar with Scottish geography will 325WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 326WH be aware, Faslane is almost in ideally the wrong place Mr Davidson: We have not yet got to the detail of for a navy that would face any threat from the north and that. It is another issue that we have to explore. Our east, because it is in the south-west. If people know understanding is that the policy of the SNP is to resurrect Argyll, anything coming out of the Clyde would have to all the Scottish regiments. We are not entirely clear as sail round the bottom of Argyll—for those who are yet how far back that goes. The Argyll and Sutherland technically minded, that is the south of Argyll. Highlanders is, I think, presently destined to become a platoon for Japanese tourists at Edinburgh castle, because Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I think the it will solely be a display regiment. It is unclear whether Mull of Kintyre is the correct technical expression. the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders will be resurrected as a regiment—as well as all the separate regiments going back, presumably, to the date of their foundation—as Mr Davidson: That almost brings on a song, but I will is whether the plans apply only to 1945 onwards, or any resist the temptation, Mr Bone—perhaps later. other date chosen at random. The vessels are, therefore, in entirely the wrong position, Our understanding is that no one who wishes to serve with the longest possible sailing time to get to the areas with the Scottish armed forces will be refused—that is where they would be required. All the military experts the policy of the Scottish Government as we understand to whom we have spoken indicated that it would make it; if that is wrong, I wait to hear my SNP colleagues sense to have the vessels on the east coast—in Rosyth, correct me—and that would of course include large or perhaps up near Aberdeen, particularly if like the numbers of Fijians, who have provided the Royal Scots Norwegian navy, there will be 70 vessels. To be fair, with one of the best seven-a-side rugby teams in the some of those vessels in the Norwegian navy are very country. I have watched them on a number of occasions. small, but it would make sense to have them close to Fijians play a valuable part in the Scottish regiments. areas that have, say, the oil rigs and so on. However, that Presumably, as members of Scottish regiments, they cannot be done if the main driver of a policy is the need will be entitled to remain part of the Scottish armed to guarantee as many jobs as possible in Faslane. It is forces. Scots in the Navy could be scattered all around not militarily rational to say that the entire Scottish the world. The position will be similar for Scots in the navy, such as it would be, would be based in Faslane. Air Force. As I understand it, they will be entitled to That would potentially mean the loss of any jobs concerned join the Scottish armed forces. Then there is the question with naval matters in Rosyth, which is much easier for of matching up needs and so on, which will be an those in Faslane to accept than those in Rosyth. The intricate exercise. Again, I presume that will be settled statement that we had from the SNP shop steward and in the spirit of co-operation that we are being promised. councillor about being willing to accept job losses possibly However, what we must have spelt out by the Scottish refers to Rosyth—that is how it has been interpreted in Government as early as possible is a statement of their Rosyth. intentions—their negotiating position. I, for one, agree We also need clarity from the Scottish Government with the shop stewards who met us this morning—I and the SNP about the extent to which headquarters cannot mention their present location. They indicated staff could be accommodated sensibly at Faslane. We that they regard it as unacceptable that they have to have had meetings with people in the military who say wait potentially until November to be told what their that it does not make sense to have all of the headquarters future is. That is simply not acceptable. Even if there are staff based far away from the seat of Government. We 6,700 jobs being created on the Clyde—I very much assume, in a separate Scotland, that Helensburgh would doubt that; all the figures that we have had suggest that not be the seat of Government. It would be Edinburgh, the figure will be much less than that—the job of an and in those circumstances, it would be appropriate to infantryman who has been relocated from the Scots have a substantial number of headquarters staff situated Guards to Faslane is not the same job as is held at the in Edinburgh, in the same way as the Ministry of moment by a fully trained engineer working on nuclear Defence is very close to the seat of power here in submarines. One job might balance the other in simply Westminster. That would further reduce the number of numerical terms, but they are not necessarily the same jobs that might be available. people, unless the intention is to conscript the engineering work force into the Scots Guards, in which case they When we get to breaking up the armed forces of the would match up. The Scottish Government need to be United Kingdom, my understanding is that everyone clear about how these things will operate in practice. presently will be given the opportunity to serve with either the Scottish navy, the Scottish air force or the This is the first of a series of debates that the Scottish Scottish army. The Scots Guards, for example, if it is to Affairs Committee intends to hold on separation, the be brought back as a Scottish regiment, might have to consequences of separation and the need for the Scottish be based somewhere. Some of those might be able to go people as a whole to have as much information as into Faslane, but at present, we do not have those possible available to them before they cast their vote. answers, and we must seek them. 2.12 pm Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): Surely serving Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): It is a pleasure members of the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force or the to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I congratulate Army are committed to the Crown and would remain the Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee, the members of the UK armed forces. A Scottish army, hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), navy or air force might be offering them a job, but it on opening the debate and outlining clearly the choices should not be assumed that the British Army, Navy or that will face the Scottish people in next year’s referendum. Air Force would automatically be ready to let them I agreed with almost everything that he said—I think, all go. though, that Helensburgh does have a good claim to be 327WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 328WH
[Mr Alan Reid] as well as the problems of location and the political problems, there would be the problem of cost. the capital of an independent Scotland. Apart from “Gargantuan” was how my hon. Friend the Member that, I fully agreed with what he said about the future of for North Devon described it, and the United Kingdom Scotland and the choice that the Scottish people face in would of course have lost 10% of its tax revenue when the referendum in October 2014. Scotland became a separate state. In the referendum, the people of Scotland will have I therefore think that the only choice open to the two choices. One is to maintain the Union; the other is United Kingdom Government would be decommissioning. to separate from the United Kingdom and form an I think that the decommissioning would probably start independent Scottish state. For one path—keeping the fairly quickly after the referendum if the SNP won it. Union—we have a very clear idea of what will be based The timetable that the SNP has laid out is as follows. at Faslane and Coulport. We know that the Royal Navy There are 18 months of negotiations, followed by Scotland will stay there. We know that all the Astute class submarines becoming a separate state on 1 April 2016. During that will move to Faslane, which will become the base for all time, of course, the present devolved Government at Britain’s submarines. We know that the number of jobs Holyrood would have been given a mandate by the there will increase to more than 8,000. referendum to commence negotiations. As I said, I For the alternative path—separation—we have very believe that they are sincere in their opposition to little idea of what will happen. I hope that the SNP nuclear weapons and that there would be no point in Members present, the hon. Members for Angus (Mr the United Kingdom Government hanging about; I Weir) and for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), think that the decommissioning would probably start will give a clear explanation of what will happen should straight away. [Interruption.] From a sedentary position, the SNP win the referendum and what the Scottish the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire says armed forces will be made up of. that they would have no choice. The debate is entitled on the Order Paper “Terminating Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Trident—Days or Decades?” First, I want to touch on Their choice. what I think will happen to Trident should the SNP win the referendum. The Scottish Government have been Mr Reid: I am now confused by the hon. Gentleman. adamant that they will not lease to the UK or any other Rather than chuntering away from a sedentary position, Government a base for submarines that are nuclear-powered perhaps he could get up and explain just what the or that carry nuclear missiles. I believe them. I think position of the Scottish Government will be if they win that that is something in which they are sincere, and the referendum. No, he has chosen not to do so. I look that we have to take it as a starting point that Trident forward to his speech later. will be going in days rather than decades. The Select Committee report said that, should the However, as the Chairman of the Select Committee SNP win the referendum, it would probably take about outlined, there are great practical difficulties. What will two years for Trident to be gone from Faslane. There the United Kingdom do when faced with an eviction would be two years’ worth of work there—probably not notice from an independent Scottish Government? The as much work as there is at the moment—in the Committee, in our evidence-gathering sessions, took decommissioning process, but what happens next? That evidence from a wide variety of experts about whether is a big question on which we still await details from the it was possible to relocate Trident and the submarines SNP, but let us consider what other countries that are in elsewhere in England or Wales, and that just does not a similar position to that of an independent Scottish seem to be within the realms of practical possibility. My state do with their defence. hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Let us take one of the countries in what used to be Harvey), when he was the Minister for the Armed termed by the SNP the arc of prosperity—Ireland. The Forces, gave evidence to the Committee and described Irish navy consists of eight patrol boats. However, eight the cost as “gargantuan”. Other experts gave very large patrol boats are not going to keep anything like the numbers. Therefore, there would be a cost problem. current Faslane work force in a job. It is also extremely The other problem would be location. Whereas it unlikely that those eight patrol boats would all be based may be possible to replicate the facilities at Faslane at Faslane, because what assets would an independent elsewhere, replicating the facilities at Coulport elsewhere Scottish navy seek to defend? The key assets would would be extremely difficult. The hill is a very large one. clearly be the oil rigs and fishing grounds in the North There are many such hills in Argyll, but finding such a sea, but as the Chairman of the Select Committee large hill in the rest of the United Kingdom that was pointed out, that is entirely the opposite side of the next to the sea and relatively close to where there was an country to Faslane. industrial work force would be very difficult. I believe I can imagine an incident on an oil rig, for which a that only one place has been mentioned. The Welsh patrol boat based at Faslane would have to sail down Government at one point put forward Milford Haven as the Clyde, round the Mull of Kintyre, up the west coast an alternative, but I think that that met with objections of Scotland, through the Minch, round Cape Wrath, from other people in Wales and I certainly have not through the Pentland firth and eventually arrive at the heard that idea being floated recently. There would also incident. Clearly an independent Scotland would base be the problem of what to do with the petrochemical at least half of its patrol boats at an east coast port—Rosyth, complex there. Aberdeen or Lerwick, for example. Even if Scotland’s The conclusion, I think, is clear. I simply do not navy were slightly bigger than Ireland’s and we had 10 believe that if the Scottish Government won the referendum or 15 patrol boats, probably only about six of them and evicted the Royal Navy from Faslane, the United would be based at Faslane. That would keep only a Kingdom Government would relocate elsewhere, because handful of people in jobs. 329WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 330WH
We often hear references to the Norwegian and Danish The argument has been a constant thread through navies from the SNP. They are certainly bigger than the the politics of Scotland ever since. The position of the Irish navy, but I have to point out that Scandinavian Scottish National party has been consistent and clear. levels of taxation are a lot higher than levels of taxation We do not want those weapons, and they should be in Britain or Ireland. People in Scandinavian countries gone at the first possible opportunity. Next year in pay about 10p to 15p in the pound more in taxation the referendum, the people of Scotland will have the than people in Britain or Ireland do. I have never heard opportunity to make that happen by voting for the SNP say that we will all be paying 10p or 15p more independence. in the pound in taxes in an independent Scotland, I have to confess that I was somewhat cynical when I which we would have to do to have a navy the size of a heard that the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs was Scandinavian navy, but even if we matched the size of undertaking a report on Trident; after all, its membership the biggest of the Scandinavian navies, there would still is unlikely to be sympathetic to the aims of the SNP. I be far fewer jobs at Faslane and Coulport than there are was, however, absolutely delighted when the report very at the moment. clearly stated: “Nuclear weapons in Scotland could be disarmed within days Lindsay Roy: Why does the hon. Gentleman think and removed within months.” there is a vacuum in SNP defence policy after so long That fantastic news will be warmly welcomed by people declaring that it wants independence? throughout Scotland. As the Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, put it in her letter to the Committee: Mr Reid: I can only speculate, but my speculation is ’”As a nation Scotland has consistently shown itself to be that it simply does not have a clue what to do. It simply opposed to the possession, threat and use of nuclear weapons—a knows that there would be nothing like the same number position taken by a majority of Parliamentarians, churches, trade of jobs in defence in an independent Scotland as there unions and many voluntary organisations, as well as articulated are at the moment. We would see mass unemployment by the Scottish people in opinion polls.” at Faslane and Coulport, and the SNP is not willing to own up to it. It must own up to the fact that, if it wants Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): Is the hon. a Scandinavian-sized navy, it has to levy Scandinavian Gentleman saying that it is the position of the SNP that levels of tax on Scotland. People would have to pay 10p it would remove nuclear weapons within days rather to 15p in the pound more in tax, and the SNP is simply than decades if Scotland leaves the UK? not willing to face up to that fact. Mr Weir: I will come to that very point in a moment. I represent the prosperous town of Helensburgh. Part of the reason for its prosperity is the well-paid, specialist Many of those who give Trident as a reason not to jobs at Faslane and Coulport. The people of Scotland vote for independence were not so long ago of the view will have a simple choice in 2014: they can keep the that the UK should get rid of it. It appears that it is not Union, the Royal Navy and the thousands of jobs, and a problem for the UK to get rid of the system, but it Helensburgh and the surrounding area will prosper; or would somehow be a huge problem for an independent they can vote for separation, and they will get a few Scotland. Labour’s shadow Secretary of State for Defence, patrol boats, a small navy and a P45. I know what the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), choice my constituents will make. only yesterday confirmed that Labour was now in favour of a like-for-like replacement for Trident, and that would cost at least £25 billion, probably much more. Several hon. Members rose— That is an obscene waste of money when all our services are under strain and threat due to budget cuts. Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): I intend the wind-up speeches to start at 4 o’clock. Hon. Members can see Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): how many Members stood to contribute. I do not That is absolutely not what the shadow Secretary of intend to impose a time limit at the moment; although State for Defence said. He reiterated that the Labour the Speaker has given permission, perhaps self-regulation party is committed to the retention of a credible, minimum, is better. independent deterrent. He did not say that we were committed to a like-for-like replacement. 2.23 pm Mr Weir: That is not my understanding of what was Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am pleased to be heard on the radio. The position of the Scottish National able to contribute to the debate on how after independence party is clear and unequivocal: when we achieve our we will finally get rid of weapons of mass destruction independence, we will get rid of nuclear weapons from from Scotland. Scotland as quickly as we can. The location of nuclear weapons has long been a In her letter, Nicola Sturgeon states clearly: contentious issue in Scotland, going back at least to the “Following a Yes vote in the referendum, it would be the establishment of the Polaris system on the Clyde. Indeed, responsibility of the Scottish and UK governments to continue to it spawned a mini industry of protest songs, pointing work together, in good faith and on the basis of mutual respect, out the absolute absurdity of the argument that we to agree the arrangements for the safe and timely withdrawal of build prosperity by threatening nuclear annihilation. the Trident nuclear weapons system from an Independent Scotland.” Hon. Members will be pleased to hear that I will not The Scottish Government are happy to discuss the attempt to sing any of them, but the older among us issue, but it appears from the UK Government’s response might remember the anthem of the time: to the report that they are not prepared to do so and “Singin’ Ding Dong Dollar, everybody holler, Ye canny spend would rather bury their head in the sand and pretend a dollar when ye’re deid”. that withdrawal will not happen. 331WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 332WH
Katy Clark: Although many people in Scotland would Scottish Government care if there is a similar danger be pleased if Trident went, they would not be pleased at elsewhere in the UK to the lives of the people in the the removal of the other naval jobs at Faslane. Does the UK? hon. Gentleman agree? Mr Weir: I have just said that, in my opinion, the UK Mr Weir: I will come on to jobs in a moment if the should get rid of Trident. However, once we have our hon. Lady will hold her horses. independence and the missiles are removed from Scotland, if the UK wants to retain them, that is a matter for the David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Will the remainder of the UK. Scotland will not have them. We hon. Gentleman give way? will have nothing to do with them. Interestingly, as the report suggests, there seem to be Mr Weir: Not at the moment. alternatives. Francis Tusa of Defence Analysis has been It is my firm hope that we can see these dreadful quoted as saying that the problems have been exaggerated. weapons put beyond use as soon as possible after we It appears that the UK Government do not want to site achieve our independence. The report goes into some the missiles on the south coast of England for fear that detail on possible scenarios, and it is very heartening to the missiles would be too near centres of population, hear that the weapons could be disabled within days. but it does not seem to worry them that Faslane is close The report’s title asks whether we can terminate Trident to the main centres of the population of Scotland. within days or decades, and, in direct answer to the hon. It seems curious that there is objection to the use of Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash), I do not Kings bay in Georgia, because it might give the impression know if we can realistically do it within days, but I am that Trident is not a totally independent system. I think certain it will not take decades. most people think that already. Given that the report After Scotland votes yes, there will be 18 months in says that a stockpile of weapons is stored there and that which we negotiate those matters that need to be agreed the UK already contributes £12 million per annum between the two Governments. Trident will be high on towards the site, it seems that there is already considerable that list. I hope that by the end of that period, we will be involvement there. Francis Tusa also makes the point well on the way to seeing those weapons gone from our that previously there were shared storage facilities with shores for ever. the Americans at Iserlohn in Germany, but such considerations are for the remaining parts of the UK, Mr McKenzie: The hon. Gentleman makes it clear not the Scottish Government, who wish to see the that the SNP’s position is to rid Scotland of nuclear missiles removed from Scotland. weapons. How does that square with the SNP’s desire to Much of the debate has been about the impact on creep back under the nuclear umbrella and gain security jobs if the Trident system left Faslane, but nowhere in through joining NATO? the report is there a mention of the jobs implication; the report is about what the UK might do with Trident Mr Weir: Twenty-five of the 28 member states in when Scotland is independent and ensures that we do NATO do not have nuclear weapons. The hon. Member not have weapons of mass destruction on our soil. for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) asked whether NATO However, the Scottish National party understands the would let Scotland in if we wanted rid of nuclear concerns of those who work at the base. weapons; I remind her that Canada, a member of Scottish Ministers have made it clear that they are NATO, got rid of its nuclear weapons in 1984 and fully committed to the future of Her Majesty’s Naval Greece, another member of NATO, got rid of them in Base Clyde in an independent Scotland, operating as a 2001. It is not unprecedented. Norway does not have conventional naval base without nuclear weapons. We nuclear weapons, for example. are the only party in Scotland to have made that Much of the rest of the report goes into detail about commitment. the options open to the UK Government in finding an alternative to Faslane. Frankly, that does not appear to The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew me to be the concern of the Scottish people or Government. Robathan): I have in my hand what I think was intended It is a matter for the UK Government, should they wish to be a secret submission from Mr John Swinney, the to continue with the possession of nuclear weapons. Finance Minister of Scotland. It is about the SNP’s Scottish independence gives the remainder of the UK commitment, should separatism work. He said: the perfect opportunity to accept that it can no longer justify the possession of such weapons and to decide “I have made clear to the Defence Workstream”— that it will no longer have them, but that is a decision for they are the people studying this— it to make. It is worth noting that even some military “that a much lower budget must be assumed.” figures have begun to question the wisdom of retaining How is he going to afford to keep open the naval base if Trident in the UK, given the huge cuts to conventional he is going to have a much lower budget? forces.
Michael Connarty: The hon. Gentleman said earlier Mr Weir: I find that incredible, from the Minister that he wished to see our shores rid of such weapons. As who is presiding over the slashing of the UK defence someone who has been a supporter of the Campaign budget. He has just, under the basing review, betrayed for Nuclear Disarmament since the days of Polaris, and the previous promises made to Scotland. who remains a member of the parliamentary CND, I We have said that the defence budget of an independent am concerned about the safety of all the nations in the Scotland will be £2.5 billion. We have made that United Kingdom. Is he saying that neither he nor the commitment; that is what we will do. That is an appropriate 333WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 334WH defence budget for a country the size of Scotland and Whatever the discussions or arguments regarding the for the facilities that we will need in an independent removal of Trident from Scotland after independence, Scotland. no one should be in any doubt that it is our clear intention that the weapons will go as quickly as is safe. Mrs Laing: Is the hon. Gentleman content that a Recently there has been much argument about the Scotland that is separate from the rest of the United costs of Trident. It is completely unaffordable. Malcolm Kingdom would nevertheless be dependent on England, Chalmers of the Royal United Services Institute noted Wales and Northern Ireland, the United States, France that about 35% of the MOD’s total core procurement and the rest of NATO for its defence? budget would be going on Trident by 2021. Such weapons are immoral. If they were ever used, Mr Weir: We have made our position on that absolutely they would indiscriminately destroy hundreds of thousands clear. I am sorry that the hon. Lady does not appreciate of lives and do untold damage to humanity and our it. I can say no further than what I have said. We will planet, if not destroy it completely. The UK is a signatory join NATO if we do not have nuclear weapons on our of the non-proliferation treaty. We spend a lot of time shores. If NATO insists on nuclear weapons, we will not telling others that they should not have nuclear weapons— join NATO. It is as simple and pure as that. We have indeed those who are developing civil nuclear made that point absolutely certain. programmes—for fear of what they might do with them. It is high time that we took a lead and accepted Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): If the hon. that we can no longer sustain a nuclear capability. Gentleman has calculated a figure of £2.5 billion, it Bishop Desmond Tutu has put the argument much must mean that he has understood what he will be left better than I could. He said: with. I have never seen a single thing that tells us what “We cannot intimidate others into behaving well when we the size of the navy, air force or army would be. What is ourselves are misbehaving. Yet that is precisely what nations it now? Will he confirm the size of our armed forces in armed with nuclear weapons hope to do by censuring North Scotland? He has £2.5 billion. What would that represent? Korea for its nuclear tests and sounding alarm bells over Iran’s pursuit of enriched uranium. According to their logic, a select few Mr Weir: We have already said that our armed forces nations can ensure the security of all by having the capacity to will be in the region of 15,000. That is on the record. destroy all. Until we overcome this double standard—until we accept that I have given way enough, and I would like to make nuclear weapons are abhorrent and a grave danger no matter who some progress. possesses them, that threatening a city with radioactive incineration Scotland’s share of UK defence forces and our share is intolerable no matter the nationality or religion of its of Trident costs could be used for the diversification of inhabitants—we are unlikely to make meaningful progress in halting the spread of these monstrous devices, let alone banishing HMNB Clyde and to create jobs that meet the defence, them from national arsenals. economic and public service priorities of an independent Scotland. Scotland’s population share of Trident running Why, for instance, would a proliferating state pay heed to the exhortations of the US and Russia, which retain thousands of costs is estimated at around £163 million per year, while their nuclear warheads on high alert? How can Britain, France its population share of the Ministry of Defence’s estimated and China expect a hearing on non-proliferation while they costs for the replacement of the Trident submarine fleet squander billions modernising their nuclear forces?” and infrastructure equates to around £1.25 billion to Someone once said that a unilateralist is a multilateralist £1.7 billion. That is at least £84 million for each and who means it. I give no apology for believing that we every year of the 15 years it would take to construct. need to get rid of nuclear weapons. Scotland, at least, A recent freedom of information request to the MOD wants rid of them and means it. revealed that 520 civilian jobs at Faslane and Coulport are directly dependent on Trident. That is only a small Several hon. Members rose— proportion of the more-than-6,500 military and civilian personnel who support operations at the bases. Channel Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. I will first call 4’s “FactCheck” reported in 2007 that the lion’s share of Members who have properly applied to the Chair, and Trident jobs—around 12,340—are based elsewhere in then other Members. I call Katy Clark. the United Kingdom, not in Scotland.
Mr Reid: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 2.39 pm Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Thank Mr Weir: No, I will not. you, Mr Bone. I am pleased to have the opportunity to There is no reason why the vast majority of Trident-based contribute to this debate. I will try to be brief, because I jobs cannot be redeployed in the redevelopment of the appreciate that a considerable number of Members bases for non-nuclear defence use. In addition, the wish to speak. money currently being spent on Trident could be much I speak as someone who is opposed to nuclear weapons better used to provide high-quality jobs in the area and in any part of the United Kingdom. Indeed, along with beyond. the majority of Scottish MPs, I voted against the The argument put to the Select Committee by the replacement of Trident when we had the opportunity to Defence Minister, which was quoted in the report, that vote on that in the last Parliament. I speak from that Scotland would somehow have to pay for a replacement perspective, but I find it astonishing that the Scottish base, is laughable. If the remainder of the UK wants to National party takes the view that if Scotland votes keep those dreadful weapons, it is up to it to find a for independence next year, what would be left of solution on where to base them, and to pay for them. the British Government, and presumably the right hon. 335WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 336WH
[Katy Clark] The general point is that we cannot presume that negotiations would be easy on all matters if Scotland Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) if he were still voted for independence. The hon. Member for Angus Prime Minister—having gone down in history as the (Mr Weir), who spoke on behalf of the Scottish National Prime Minister who lost Scotland—will bend over party, therefore needs to think about his comment that backwards to facilitate a new Scotland in every area of it would be laughable for an independent Scotland to policy, whether on the economy, our currency, Europe have to take at least a share of the costs of relocating or Trident, which we are debating today. Trident. Whatever the Scottish National party’s views We have heard powerful contributions about the cost about what is a reasonable negotiating position, it should of relocating Trident within the United Kingdom. The be aware that it might have to negotiate with people Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, my hon. Friend with very different views. the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), That is one reason why there has been a great deal of articulately outlined the huge cost that would be involved. speculation in Scotland about whether the Scottish It is absolutely clear that there would be no easy solution National party would honour its position of not having if that were the outcome. Some people believe that we nuclear weapons in Scotland if we became independent. would need storage relatively adjacent to the submarine I very much hope that it would: we should not have base—for safety reasons, apart from anything else—and nuclear weapons in any part of the United Kingdom. I the reality is that there are very few, if any, locations in would therefore be sympathetic to much of what the England or Wales that would be suitable. The Government hon. Gentleman said about the implication for jobs, if of the rest of the UK would have a huge financial we were talking only about Trident. Of course, a whole headache if they wished to continue to be a country in range of work has been done on which part of those possession of nuclear weapons. It is unlikely that a employed at Faslane and Coulport is related strictly to Government in that position would be co-operative. Trident and its replacement, and which part is related The evidence received by the Select Committee from to other military activities that currently take place in the Ministry of Defence clearly shows that should Scotland Scotland but may not continue to do so. decide that it no longer wants Trident to be based there, As I said in my intervention on the Chair of the it would not be willing to continue with any other Select Committee, there is now an incoming fleet of facilities currently based there. That is an indication of seven Astute class submarines, eight Sandown class the likely response that a newly independent Scotland minehunters and the administrative headquarters of would get in many areas of policy, not only in defence. the Royal Navy in Scotland, northern England and Northern Ireland. As the Chair said, further work will David Mowat: That is a good point. One issue that come to that area as a result of our union with the other would be negotiated in the 18-month period is whether constituent parts of the United Kingdom. the new Scottish Government would use the pound and The hon. Member for Angus said that the defence whether the Bank of England would be the lender of budget for an independent Scotland would be about last resort to them. Does the hon. Lady think that that £2.5 billion. It would be interesting to hear at some discussion or negotiation might be more difficult if the point—perhaps from his colleague, the hon. Member Scottish Government had just kicked out Trident? for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), or from the Scottish Government—exactly what that will look Katy Clark: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for like and mean, particularly for the areas affected should his intervention, but I will not stray too far down that Scotland decide to become independent and to withdraw avenue. I suspect that that would move us away from the Trident, given what the Ministry of Defence has said subject of today’s debate, about which you might have about the implications of that on other parts of military something to say, Mr Bone. However, he makes the policy. powerful point that the Scottish Government must be I am grateful to have had the opportunity to speak in aware that if they succeed in persuading the Scottish this debate. It is an important debate for Scotland, people to vote for independence next year, there will be because the reality is that the Scottish National party’s implications in a whole range of areas. policy on Trident has been successful for it over many years. In Scotland, there is a very different tradition on Sandra Osborne: Does my hon. Friend agree that if such issues than there is in other parts of the United there is unresolved bitterness about Trident between a Kingdom. In opinion polls, the replacement of Trident newly separate Scotland and the rest of the UK, that has consistently been unpopular. Indeed, over many would affect all the negotiations and influence our decades, many people in Scotland have opposed nuclear international partners—for example, in relation to any weapons. Whether we go back to the 1950s and 1960s, application to join the EU? with the demonstrations against Polaris, or the 1980s, with those against both Cruise and of course Trident, Katy Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. which was brought in afterwards, the anti-nuclear movement The Scottish National party often forgets that not only has been very strong in Scotland. will England, Wales and Northern Ireland have views For the purposes of this debate, whether people are on this issue, but many other European countries will be for or against nuclear weapons should not be a reason interested in the internal implications for themselves. for taking one side or the other in the independence For example, Spain may not want to create the precedent debate. If Scotland decides to become independent, we of allowing one part of a current member country of will still be grappling with the same issues and having the European Union an easy process for continuing to to deal with other parts of this country. I therefore say be a member of the EU, given that it has to deal with to the Scottish National party that as much honesty situations such as the one in Catalonia. and information as possible in this debate would be in 337WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 338WH everybody’s interest and would ensure that the people Scotland and lost the faith of the Scottish people, got of Scotland can make an educated choice when the time about half the SNP’s percentage at the election. None comes. the less, a party cannot have a landslide victory when only 24% of the people vote for it. It is a fix that happens because of electoral arithmetic, and it has 2.49 pm nothing to do with popular support. If there were some Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): sea change among the people in Scotland, we would It is a great pleasure, Mr Bone, to speak under your have to consider what to do with the bomb. chairmanship, which I have done a number of times in The Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee said other venues in meetings of the all-party parliamentary that he has been assured that the fuses could be removed group on human trafficking. from missiles within eight days. I have recently read a I said earlier that I have been against nuclear weapons great deal about the nuclear weapons stores of the in the UK since Polaris was brought to the Clyde. It was world, particularly in the US, and learned about the the great contamination of our nation—I mean the process by which chemicals in the fuse heat up and then United Kingdom rather than just Scotland. I was deeply trigger the missiles. The people in the States who researched distressed by the comments of the hon. Member for and created those chemical fuses are now all dead. The Angus (Mr Weir), who indicated that as long as the fuses deteriorate and do not necessarily react 30 or SNP could get it out of Scotland, Trident would then be 40 years after they were made. Believe it or not, the US someone else’s decision. I would still be campaigning has not yet found a way of synthesising the products against it wherever it was to be relocated, and I would that would allow the replacement of those fuses, so we argue strongly against it being relocated anywhere within could have a redundant nuclear network throughout the UK. the world, including in the UK, within the next decade. Therefore, defusing the missiles might not take eight Quite simply, I support the “Terminating Trident”—or days; it could be very much quicker than that. banning the bomb as we used to call it—part of the subject matter of this debate. Most of the wonderful songs written about that came from the Labour movement, Mr Davidson: Is my hon. Friend saying that the not the Scottish National party, which was a miniscule professional advice that I received that it would be safe organisation in Scotland at the time, because it was for me to have the fuses in the back of my Vauxhall focused, as always, on breaking up the United Kingdom Vectra was incorrect? and separating Scotland from the UK. It was never part of the movement that was clearly committed to organising Michael Connarty: I advise my hon. Friend not to put against the bomb. I went on the marches and I visited the chemicals that are contained in the nuclear fuses in the peace camps. I did not see any Scottish National the back of his Vectra. In fact, I would not put them in party members there; I saw members of the Labour the back of anything that is not a nuclear bomb store. movement in Scotland arguing for a better future with The fuses might not set off a nuclear weapon, but they no nuclear weapons anywhere in the UK. might blow his Vectra back to the future. We are debating not just what happens to those Eight months for removing the warheads is correct. pieces of metal, and the international motions and They are kept separate and can be detached and taken structures we sign up to that enable us to use such somewhere else. As for it taking up to 25 years to weapons, whether under someone else’s banner or not, relocate the facilities, all the analyses now available but what happens to the people. “Ban the bomb but publicly in the “Nowhere to Go” document by the don’t dump the people”—that was always the statement Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament show that there is made at demonstrations outside the gates of Faslane nowhere for the weapons to be relocated. There was and Coulport. It was never about getting rid of the nowhere all those years ago that was thought to be people who were inside doing the job that the nation isolated and secure enough to install the nuclear weapons. had asked them to do, using the skills that they had Now, given the population changes in the conurbations been trained in and were proud to serve their country around those areas, it is unlikely that anywhere would with. Unfortunately, that is the unanswered question, allow those weapons to be installed. The question of which was asked by the Chair of the Scottish Affairs relocating them, therefore, cannot be resolved unless Committee. there was some sort of dictatorship of Government on If we are to have such a monumental change in the the people in the UK. Certainly, the idea of putting structure of the defence budget, after what would be the them in Wales or Northern Ireland would cause a much greater, more cataclysmic decision to separate massive uprising. Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom—Scotland Should we even be thinking about moving the weapons would be leaving 92% of the UK behind and becoming somewhere else? It is a fantasy to think that in the event some wee country that would not be a significant player of a nuclear conflagration, Scotland would be safer in the world—we must think about how we can deal having them somewhere else that was not Faslane or with that. That is the problem for the SNP Government, Coulport. Do we really think that an enemy of the UK who, by the way, as I keep having to repeat, were elected would not want to bomb the establishments based in by 24% of the people of Scotland. The structure of the my constituency in Grangemouth, where the North sea electoral system set up by those under Donald Dewar, oil and gas comes in, just because we put the weapons who thought that by helping their Liberal comrades somewhere else? What are we going to do? Are we going they would enable Labour to form an alliance with the to paint CND signs on the tops of all the buildings in Liberals in Scotland, actually advantaged the Scottish Scotland? Let me own up to something. When I was National party and gave it a majority. The Labour leader of a council, we actually did put CND signs on party, because it had done such an abysmal job in our vans. Somebody pointed out that we should have 339WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 340WH
[Michael Connarty] Government have learned nothing from all that, as we can see from the policies that they are involved in at the put them on the roof because they could not be seen on moment. the side of the vans, but we were young and foolish The figure given by the hon. Member for Glasgow then. I have learned now that it is a nonsense to say that South West (Mr Davidson), the Chairman of the Scottish we are not part of the UK because we do not have the Affairs Committee, was that 6,700 jobs—possibly up to bomb any more and that if there were a conflagration 8,200 jobs—rely on Trident at the moment. There is we would be safe. I thought that the SNP Government also the question about all the other jobs that are and Alex Salmond, who is just about my age, had also attached to it, such as shipbuilding and the industries grown up. and supply sources that feed into it. I do not want to see those people made redundant; I want to see these Pete Wishart: Of course it is right to say that if there people being reskilled, redeployed and creating useful were a nuclear strike, it is unlikely that Scotland would things for our nation. be spared the consequences, but should one not reflect That is the one thing missing from the SNP’s the values of one’s community or one’s nation and say, arguments—the SNP has not done that work. It has not “We refuse to hold these weapons. We refuse to threaten worked out how to deal with this question. The idea is other peoples with these weapons.” Should we not be that we just empty the warheads out of Trident and put doing what we can to reflect the views of the Scottish all the soldiers in who are going to come back and people in this matter? volunteer, before they are quickly made redundant because £2.5 billion of budget will not keep many soldiers in a Michael Connarty: The hon. Gentleman is actually a job and Scotland certainly will not have a navy, or many little bit late. Having campaigned with the Labour helicopters or planes to fly. It is a joke, it is unfair and it movement over many years, my understanding is that is an insult to the Scottish people to say, by assertion, more than 70% of the people of Scotland are already “We can do this and it will all work.” against these weapons. Therefore, changing the mood Instead we can look at the people who have been of the people in Scotland by removing the weapons is arguing closely alongside me—or me alongside them, I not the point. I want to see the mood changed throughout should say, because I respect them and their contribution the United Kingdom so that we can persuade a Government is much greater than mine. For example, there are the in the future—a Labour Government, I hope—that we people from the Bradford Disarmament Research Centre, should be moving in the direction of taking the weapons including Dr Nick Ritchie, who has been doing tremendous out of the whole land mass of the UK; that is my aim. If work. The centre produced a report on Trident in 2008, my SNP colleagues, who support the idea of ridding the “Trident: What is it For?”, which argues and shows that world of these nuclear weapons, want to go off and hide Trident is not for anything in the modern world, quite in a corner then they can do so, but they should not frankly; Trident is a nonsense. The centre talks sensibly, pretend that it is sensible Government policy. I am as the SNP should be doing to challenge the assertions working up to my next point, “Don’t dump the people.” that are made and the questions that are asked by the Scottish Affairs Committee. The centre produced another Mrs Laing: Although I do not agree with the hon. report in 2009, “Stepping down the Nuclear Ladder: Gentleman, I fully appreciate that the position that he Options for Trident on a Path to Zero”, which worked takes and has always taken is a position of principle. out how we can go—step by step—away from these However, is it not rather hypocritical on the part of the weapons and what we can do with them. In 2010, the Scottish National party to say, “We don’t want nuclear centre produced the report, “Continuity/Change: weapons here, but we will depend on the rest of this Rethinking Options for Trident Replacement”. These island of Great Britain to have nuclear weapons and to reports are fundamental sources of information about have a credible defence policy that will continue to how we can move away from a world, and a UK, that protect Scotland”? However much the SNP pretends has nuclear weapons in its armoury, and use the money that Scotland can be separate, we are all on this small for something much more useful. island together. However, what do we have from the Government? What we have from the Government is the fact that they are going to step up the main-gate costs in 2016. Those [MR ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] costs are going to be enormous and we will be landed with another generation of weapons, like for like, that is Michael Connarty: I would not necessarily drift into not justifiable, that was never justifiable according to unparliamentary language, such as “hypocrisy”; I think the 2008 report I referred to, that is not sustainable and that is ill-judged and unfortunately a negative force in that should not be moved along with. politics. That is why I worry about the principles of the As we know, a commission is sitting and considering SNP. The issue is not independence but the tenets on the question of the future of Trident. I had the pleasure which the SNP bases its independence argument, of of going along to one of the discussions around the being separate and somehow thinking that it can be review, “Trident Alternatives Review and the Future of detached from other people’s concerns. Barrow”. Why do I mention Barrow? It is because that I am a socialist; I still want to see a world socialist review is the kind of work that the SNP Government organisation that tears down capitalism. If we have not should have been doing if they really meant to remove learned the lesson from what the gamblers in the banks Trident and if they are not just about government by did—it was not gamblers in the Government, but gamblers assertion or politics by gesture. That is the kind of work in the banks—to our nations, not just here but throughout that should have been done, but I see none of that work the world, then we have learned nothing. Of course, this being done by the SNP.That review argued very strongly 341WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 342WH that if we want to have a situation where Barrow, which That is what is missing. A very legitimate question builds these submarines, will be without that work, we was asked by the Scottish Affairs Committee, “What do must invest £100 million per year in that community to you do in this situation?” The Committee is asking the reskill people and look to the future. If that process SNP Government to answer that question, and it is continued, there would then be a new set of people with getting nothing; it is getting silence. I do not think that a new set of skills, who would build an economy in that this argument about Trident adds to the arguments for area. independence, but it would be nice to think that the The SNP has done none of that work. What are we Government of Scotland at this moment would be going to have? Heathers and bagpipes up the Kyle of planning to do something and would put forward a Lochalsh? Is that what the future is going to be about? plan that the people could look at, but they are not Is it going to be about emptying out the area and letting doing that. Instead, they are saying, “Jump off the cliff. the people drift away, and hoping that the people who It’s all right, you’ll find the water’s warm when you remain there will somehow attract tourists who will give land.” them handouts? The work has not been done. I will tell you an interesting fact, Mr Rosindell, as you Katy Clark: My hon. Friend has already made reference have taken the Chair. When I looked into my wife’s to his time as a leader of a Scottish local authority. Of ancestors, I discovered that her third great-grandfather course, at that time he was exceptionally well known for was the ferry manager from Ardentinny to Faslane. In his radical credentials. And at that time, the Labour his day, there was an agricultural community on both party’s position was that we wanted to get rid of nuclear sides of the water, and that route became a route for weapons in this country, and a huge amount of work people to go down into the central belt of Scotland; was done by Labour and the trade unions on defence sadly, that emptied out most of that area. The idea that diversification. Is he aware whether the Scottish Government we could not have people living there with high skills, in have devoted any office or time to defence diversification, a very attractive area, who could work in the conurbations and does he think that that is exactly the kind of of Scotland and commute, or in fact who could create information that should be coming to the fore at this whole new industries in that area, is a nonsense. time? Let us consider a parallel. When I first came into the Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Before the hon. House, I went down to visit Baglan bay. Baglan bay was Gentleman replies to that question, I remind him that a BP refinery and chemical site, because we thought there are others who want to get into this debate and he that the oil would come from the other side of the world has already been speaking for 18 minutes. Thank you. and to the west coast of the nation. BP realised that would not make sense, because of North sea oil, so it shut down Baglan bay, slowly but surely. However, there Michael Connarty: I am very grateful to you, are more jobs in Baglan bay today than there were when Mr Rosindell, for saying that, after all this time that I BP had its refinery and when there was a chemical have been campaigning, I am not allowed much more industry there, because the Wales Office, which was than 18 minutes. If anything I have said is redundant, I then responsible, planned for the change, trained people strike it from the record, but what I would say is that the for it and put the infrastructure in for it. None of that questions asked in the context of the Scottish Affairs type of work has been done by the SNP Government, Committee remain unanswered. The questions that I because they live by assertion; they do not live by asked, which are slightly different from those of the standard logic and proof. Scottish Affairs Committee, remain unanswered in most of the context of the UK, but we have some indication Pete Wishart: I have listened very carefully to the that the nuclear industry commission, which has Lord hon. Gentleman’s remarks. Like me, he is passionately Browne of Ladyton and others on it, is beginning to against nuclear weapons; he believes that we need to rid look very seriously at that issue. The point that the the world of this scourge—this immoral curse that we commission makes, and I make, is whether or not we have on our land. We say that we will get rid of them have a scenario with a final conclusion, which might after we secure independence. He wants rid of them too, come from independence or the removal of Trident so what is his plan for jobs once he secures his ambition because of some other reason, we must plan, argue and to ensure that Trident is cleared from Faslane? What invest for the future. None of that is in the SNP documents would he do for jobs? that I have found; in fact, the question of weapons diversification is not on the agenda at all. It is all about Michael Connarty: I am very happy to answer that government by suggestion. In that context, I have to question, because I have just given the example of the conclude that if the argument is that we would feel work that has been done on Barrow. People who are morally better if we got rid of Trident, we should do so looking at the future of the UK without nuclear weapons on a UK basis. None of the arguments I have heard are looking at what it takes. It is not a matter of show that the SNP has any idea what it would do if it location; it is a matter of industrial, manufacturing and had independence and was facing the removal of Trident education policy. Whether or not we had stopped making from Faslane and Scotland. gas lanterns in Faslane and we were going to make some new things for the nation, we have to plan and Several hon. Members rose— train, put people in the skill set, and give them the infrastructure. Whether something is made redundant Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Order. Before I call by technology or by the movement of history, such as the next speaker, may I point out that if everyone keeps the movement of agricultural workers to the conurbations, their speeches to a reasonable length, everyone can get it is a cycle. A nation must plan ahead for the people in? If people go beyond more than 10 minutes, that will and for its needs in the future. not be possible. 343WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 344WH
3.10 pm for Faslane to describe and explain our ambitions for Faslane. We have clear and ambitious projects for a Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): conventional base at Faslane. We will try to reassure the Welcome to the Chair, Mr Rosindell. I hope you enjoy work force and to make sure they understand what we your little session in what is always the friendly, convivial are trying to achieve, instead of being told some of the atmosphere of Scottish debates. myths we have heard today. I welcome this debate, because everybody knows that Trident will be a huge, iconic issue in the 2014 independence Gemma Doyle: I am disappointed the SNP defence referendum. It will probably shape a number of people’s spokesperson is not here. I think this is the second impressions about independence, and it could have a debate on Trident he has been absent from. When I major influence on how people choose to vote. We can challenged him on this issue, he said we could not have be absolutely and abundantly clear—every Member in negotiations until after Scotland had taken its decision. the Chamber understands this—that if there is a yes What exactly is the SNP’s policy? vote in the independence referendum, Scotland will be clear of the scourge of the immoral weapon of mass destruction that is the Trident system. The Scottish Pete Wishart: We want to do what was set out in the people and the Scottish nation will no longer host the Edinburgh agreement, with both Governments planning UK’s arsenal of these appalling weapons; our nation, for the outcome so that we achieve the best possible our society and our community will no longer host result for a yes or no vote. We will enter the negotiations Trident weapons. with the best possible intent, and we will hope for the best possible outcome. All we are trying to do now is to Trident will be removed as quickly and safely as encourage the UK Government to approach the discussions possible—that is what we have said. If colleagues here on the same basis. So far, they have refused to do so. want to agonise over what “quickly and safely” means, we will leave that up to them. We will co-operate, we will It is nice to have the hon. Lady here, but where, for sit down, we will discuss, we will negotiate and we will goodness’ sake, is the shadow Defence Secretary? He be as helpful as possible, but our intention is to get rid gave a rambling interview the other morning. When he of Trident weapons as quickly and safely as possible. was challenged about Labour policy on nuclear weapons, he said: We would sit down with the Government today to start discussing how that will be achieved, but they have “We’re not a unilateralist party. I mean, that happened in the ’80s, that was a flirtation with surrealism. We’re not a unilateralist famously refused pre-negotiation. We have no intention party and we’re not going to become a unilateralist party.” of having pre-negotiations with the Government; we understand why they, quite rightly, would not want to He added: pre-negotiate any aspect of independence, which would “We’re in favour of the UK retaining a nuclear capability”. seem like they were conceding the result, but they The Labour party is totally committed to remaining a should, for goodness’ sake, sit round a table and at least nuclear party; it will renew Trident, and it will probably discuss the issue. Surely, we should try to work together replace it like for like—that is what we have with the in the spirit of the Edinburgh agreement and to find the Labour party. best outcome, whether there is a yes vote or a no vote. It I have no idea what the report is intended to achieve. is surely in the Government’s interests to sit down with The rather silly Scottish Affairs Committee set out to the Scottish Government to work out what would happen blow a hole in the yes campaign’s ambitions for Trident, to their weapons system if the Scottish people decided but all it has done is to suggest how easy those ambitions to vote yes and wanted rid of the whole thing. are to achieve—thank you, Scottish Affairs Committee. To be clear, the Committee is one of those strange, Pamela Nash: The UK Government asserted only dysfunctional Committees; it is a really bizarre concoction quite recently that they would not conduct those just now. It is composed exclusively of Unionists, and it negotiations. Did the Scottish Government request talks produces reports for Unionist consumption. before that?
Pete Wishart: We have consistently told the Pamela Nash: The hon. Gentleman is being very Government—not just on Trident, but on a number of generous with his time. I am a proud member of the other issues—that we need to discuss round the table Scottish Affairs Committee. There is an SNP member, what will happen in the event of a yes vote for Scottish but, unfortunately, she has not taken her seat for quite independence. some time. Why is she still missing in action? If he is concerned that the Committee is made up only of Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman wants the UK members of Unionist parties, he might like to take her Government to sit down with him, but the work force at seat. Faslane and Coulport want the SNP to sit down with them and to tell them what jobs there will be after Pete Wishart: I think the hon. Lady knows exactly independence. When the debate finishes, will he sit why we are not taking our place on the Committee. We down with representatives of the work force at Faslane will not take up that place as long as the hon. Member and tell them the SNP’s plans for it? for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) remains in the Chair. Given the way our female member of the Committee Pete Wishart: They will be negotiating not with me was treated, we will not take up that place. The place is but with someone further up the pay scale. Today, I have available, and we will come back to it, but not as long as heard some of the evidence presented in the Scottish the hon. Gentleman is in the Chair. Affairs Committee, and it would be an absolute pleasure and joy to sit down with the trade union representatives Mr Davidson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 345WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 346WH
Pete Wishart: No, I am not discussing this any further out—in a matter of days after independence, as now with the hon. Gentleman, if he does not mind. seems to be the intention. When will he get to that The Scottish Affairs Committee is the most bitterly detail? partisan parliamentary Committee anywhere in the UK. Outside Unionist circles, it has lost any credibility it Pete Wishart: As usual, it is only from the Scottish had. I was a member of the Committee, as was my hon. National party that opposition to what is proposed will Friend the Member for Angus (Mr Weir). We served be heard. The hon. Gentleman suggests that I should under distinguished Chairs—in my case, Mohammad stick to my script, although no one else who has taken Sarwar. The Committee produced reasonable reports, part in the debate has been anywhere close to doing which were accepted across the political spectrum—but that, which is slightly ridiculous. no more. A Committee that cannot even bring itself to The Labour party would replace Trident, like for like. say the word that will go on the independence ballot does not deserve the time, effort or credibility it thinks it Gemma Doyle: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? should have. Pete Wishart: I have been speaking for 11 minutes, as What did the report actually say? This is really good. the hon. Member for Edinburgh West said, and want to The Committee found out how easy it would be to get allow others to speak. rid of nuclear weapons in an independent Scotland. The Chairman even went as far as to suggest that We now know that the Labour party will continue to Scotland could be disarmed in a matter of days. The be committed to Trident, so the only way to get rid of missiles and submarines could be discharged in a matter nuclear weapons from Scotland, and clear us of that of two years. That is music to the ears of all of us who scourge—that immoral weapon of mass destruction—is have campaigned so long and so hard for our nation to to vote yes in the independence referendum. be free of nuclear weapons. The Scottish Affairs Committee did a fantastic job by telling us how easy it would be, Mr Reid: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? although given its partisan approach, I have no idea why it decided to. I do not know whether any of its Pete Wishart: I have given way to the hon. Gentleman members are still to speak, but if they do, they must tell twice already. us why they produced a report suggesting that it would A yes vote would get rid of a weapon of mass be so easy to get rid of Trident from Scotland. destruction, and we are not allowed to keep it anyway. If The Committee also tried to suggest what the rest of we were to become a new nation after independence, as the United Kingdom might want to do, and presented a the no campaigners claim we would, we would not be few options—perhaps even a few sensible ones. Was the able to keep nuclear weapons under the non-proliferation UK Government grateful or happy at that? Not a bit of treaty. New nations are not allowed to host nuclear it. The response totally ignored all the suggestions and weapons, so it would be illegal under international law proposals. The Government refused to look at anything. for us to have them. We would have to get rid of them They were not even prepared to consider the suggestions and it would be up to the UK how to deal with that. of the Scottish Affairs Committee. What a waste of Scotland wants rid of nuclear weapons. As my hon. time. The UK Government must get over their self- Friend the Member for Angus put it, even Scotland’s defeating, almost petulant and childish, behaviour. They Westminster MPs want rid of Trident. Not long ago, in should sit at the table with the Scottish Government for 2007, 33 voted against Trident and 22 voted for it. They talks about what they would do to get rid of Trident are in good company, because the majority of people in when we vote yes in next year’s independence referendum. Scotland want rid of it, as do the Churches and the trade unions. Every part of civic society supports the We now know that only a yes vote in the referendum notion that we must get rid of that weapon of mass will get rid of Trident. The Tories, of course, are committed destruction. That is why I say that Trident will be an to Trident. They want to spend £100 billion renewing it. iconic issue in the referendum—because so many people The Liberals—I am, as usual, not so sure about them. in Scotland oppose it. They are conducting some sort of review. The hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey)did some Mr McKenzie: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? fantastic work on it, and it is now in the hands of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. We have no idea, as Pete Wishart: I cannot give way, because more hon. usual, what the Liberals intend to do. I think theirs is a Members want to speak. unilateralist party. Trident is a system for the Brezhnevs of the world, not the bin Ladens. It is for another age, and people Mr Reid indicated dissent. understand that. Yet the Government will spend up to £100 billion on renewing it. Can we believe that? In a Pete Wishart: No, it is not. I think they are against triple-dip recession—a time of austerity, the bedroom nuclear weapons: it is just that they quite like Trident. tax and hard living for most of our constituents—they That is the Liberals, anyway: we will leave that aside. are prepared to spend £100 billion on the renewal of Trident. That is an appalling decision for any Government. Scotland’s share of the upkeep alone is £163 million, Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): The hon. and there is so much more that we could do with that, as Gentleman has been speaking for 11 minutes. Will he my hon. Friend the Member for Angus said. Faslane stop the comedy routine and get back to the substance will have a fantastic future as a conventional naval base. of the debate? Many people in Scotland are waiting to As an independent country we will be able to respond to hear what plans the SNP has for when Trident is moved our own defence needs. 347WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 348WH
Several hon. Members rose— matched if Trident were relocated. I do not think that the speeches of the hon. Members for Angus (Mr Weir) Pete Wishart: I cannot give way. I am just finishing. and for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) put We have our own defence needs and strategic requirements any meat on the bones in that respect. and the Scottish people have a fantastic opportunity to If a newly separate Scotland insists on the removal of rid themselves of an evil weapon. If they want Trident Trident from Faslane and the UK is forced into developing out, they should vote yes to Scottish independence. The a new base at great expense, one would assume that the case is already overwhelming and compelling. The ability associated costs would be included in the separation to rid Scotland of such an evil weapon of mass destruction negotiations. In that event, one would imagine the helps that case. difficulty, both practically and politically, for a UK government trying to establish facilities suitable for 3.25 pm storing nuclear weapons and home-porting the Trident Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): It is a pleasure fleet in England or Wales. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I I am concerned that this particular aspect of the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow debate is being sidelined. It is hard to find any clarity on South West (Mr Davidson), the Chairman of the Scottish an important issue for the people of Scotland and the Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, on securing rest of the UK. The Scottish Government need to be the debate. more open with the Scottish people on this matter and, Scotland plays an essential and pivotal role in the in particular, the affected work force. defence of the United Kingdom, and I welcome the It has been mentioned that in a sitting of the Select opportunity to speak on one of the most important Committee on Scottish Affairs this morning, we took impacts of the referendum debate: the future of the evidence from the unions representing the work force Trident nuclear deterrent in a separate Scotland. It is no on the Clyde. From their responses to our questions, it secret that I am an advocate of the decommissioning of was abundantly clear that a distinct lack of information all nuclear weapons, lock, stock and barrel, regardless is being provided to them by the SNP on what would of where they are sited—in Scotland, the UK or anywhere happen to Faslane and Coulport in the event of a yes else. Indeed, I believe that nuclear disarmament should vote in the pending referendum. Despite what was said not just stop at Carlisle and Berwick-upon-Tweed, as earlier by members of the Scottish National party, it the Scottish nationalists would have it. However, the was reported to us today that November will be the removal of Trident from the Clyde, if that is the proposition, earliest opportunity for the work force to get some needs to be considered extremely carefully, with a full answers, perhaps, to their legitimate questions and concerns. examination of all the implications and exploration of The work force and, indeed, the people of Scotland the alternatives. I therefore welcome the report as a must be able to make the best possible informed choice significant contribution to that debate. Rather than and be fully aware of the implications of that choice, so putting up barriers and creating false divisions, as the the SNP cannot continue to duck this issue. nationalists constantly do, we all need to work together Perhaps the Minister can confirm what discussions and play an active and constructive role in an international the devolved Administration in Scotland have had with effort to achieve a world free from nuclear weapons. the UK Government and the Ministry of Defence on The UK is a proud and prominent signatory of the the implications and additional costs of a separate nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Its three pillars must Scottish state removing Trident and establishing a new continue to be the prism for our nuclear policy: non- naval base, post separation. In particular, I should like a proliferation, disarmament and the facilitation of the response about whether he accepts the view that Trident peaceful use of nuclear technology. I also believe that warheads could be deactivated in a matter of days and the formal response from the Scottish Government is that the nuclear warheads, missiles and submarines not a meaningful contribution to the debate, and that could be removed from Scotland within 24 months, and many people throughout Scotland and the rest of the whether this timetable would constitute the “speediest UK do not welcome it. If the SNP were to insist on the safe transition” of nuclear weapons from Scotland. removal of Trident from Scottish territory by the “speediest safest transition”, as it says, any armed submarine on It is clear from the evidence that Scotland could not patrol would be recalled and, in effect, the UK would at carry out this process by itself—the hon. Member for that point no longer be able to maintain its nuclear Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) admitted defence capacity. The continuous at-sea deterrent would that earlier—as all handling and transport of the warheads stop and it is not clear how quickly the UK could would have to be carried out by specialist staff from the restore it, if that was the choice. UK. That would require the fullest possible co-operation between the Scottish and UK Governments. The SNP has claimed that the panacea for the vacuum that would be created through the removal of Trident The SNP has said that once an independent Government from Faslane and Coulport would be the basing of signed up to non-proliferation treaty rules, Britain’s conventional naval forces there. However, moving nuclear current submarine-based nuclear deterrent at Faslane weapons from the Clyde after Scottish separation would and Coulport would have to leave Scotland “as quickly be an enormous exercise costing billions of pounds and as possible”. Immediate removal could mean leaving thousands of jobs. The Faslane site currently employs the rest of the UK without use of its submarines for up 6,700 military and civilian workers, with that figure due to 20 years while a new base is found. Clearly, this is an to rise to 8,200 by 2022. Of course, there is also a absurd and unsustainable position. multiplier effect, across the west of Scotland and beyond. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to It is therefore for the Scottish Government to explain offer during this debate, and, perhaps more important, how the quality and quantity of such jobs would be what the SNP has to say by way of facts and figures, not 349WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 350WH the usual assertions and myths that we have heard once If it does come about, and if the United Kingdom again this afternoon. The people of Scotland deserve to elects a Government in 2015 who wish to go ahead with know what they will be voting for in 2014. The issue of the nuclear deterrent for a further generation, it would Trident is too important to ignore. be one of the biggest items—if not the single biggest—on the table in the negotiation that would have to take 3.34 pm place between London and Edinburgh in the aftermath Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): I congratulate of a referendum vote for independence. The Scottish the Committee, both on its inquiry and its report and Government would likely take the view, “This will all on the manner in which its Chairman introduced its have to be paid for by the United Kingdom Government”; report, in which the prospects of relocating the nuclear I would not expect them to write cheques for it. However, deterrent to another base somewhere else in the UK are if the residual UK Government found themselves facing referred to as a massive bill of many billions of pounds for relocating “highly problematic, very expensive, and fraught with political the nuclear deterrent, they would have that many billions difficulties.” fewer in their back pocket for discussing the rest of the If memory serves me correctly, that phrase was part of things on the table. my brief when I gave evidence to the Committee. The That brings us to the critical point that we have not civil service was on fine form that day in preparing that heard from the proposers of Scottish independence brief, giving such a masterly understatement of what what the defence policy of an independent Scotland this would entail. would be. The United Kingdom, even denuded of 8.5% Anyone who has visited Faslane—I guess that most of its population and taxpayers, would continue to have hon. Members in this Chamber will have done so at global interests, which its armed forces are there to some point—will see that if we were establishing facilities defend. It would continue to have a broad spectrum of of the sort that we have there, nature could scarcely capability with which to defend it, and it would continue have provided a more perfect setting in which to do so. to have the critical mass necessary to sustain a variety of Indeed, anyone who goes there will be struck by the equipment fleets, but the defence force of an independent tranquillity of it all, which is, of course, the legacy of Scotland would have neither those global interests nor the nuclear deterrent’s having been there for 50 years that global reach. and little other development having taken place. When Most critically, Scotland would not have the sheer we say cheerfully that there are alternatives to which we mass with which it could possibly hope to sustain fleets could now turn— of warships or fighter jets. We have heard that Faslane would continue to host submarines. What on earth 3.35 pm would an independent Scottish force want with submarines? Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. The purpose of submarines is to protect the nuclear deterrent, the aircraft carriers and warships. If Scotland 3.53 pm is not going to have any of those things, why the dickens On resuming— would it need any submarines at all? The truth of the matter is that an independent Scotland Sir Nick Harvey: I was making the point before the would need defence forces. It would be about homeland Division that Faslane is ideally suited to its purpose. security. If Scotland was forward-leaning in its global Back in the 1950s, alternative sites were investigated, interests, it would perhaps be willing, like the Republic including Falmouth, which has one of the largest harbours of Ireland, to volunteer troops to international peacekeeping in the world, and Milford Haven, but we cannot turn operations. However, that is very different from taking back the clock and consider how Falmouth and Milford the existing United Kingdom armed forces and slicing Haven were 50 years ago. The fact is that a great deal of 8.5% from them. development has happened in both since, and some of it is completely incompatible with a nuclear facility. Mr Robathan: Does my hon. Friend therefore agree If another site were chosen, the cost would not be with John Swinney’s assumption in this not very secret simply the massive cost of making a nuclear installation. document that the defence budget of an independent My colleague the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire Scotland would have to be a great deal reduced in (Peter Luff) also gave evidence to the Committee, pointing proportion to what it is now as a percentage of the UK out that making a site meet the standards for nuclear defence budget? safety and hardening it in defence terms would multiply costs far above the requirements of normal construction. Sir Nick Harvey: I am certain that the defence budget On top of all that would be compensation, restoration would be much smaller, given the other aspirations and all sorts of other attendant costs from nearby articulated for an independent Scotland, but I am absolutely facilities and developments. clear that a force proportionate to the size of the That was what led me to tell the Committee that the population and the economy would not have fast jets; costs would be gargantuan. I think that they are basically what on earth would it do with them? That will leave unquantifiable—in all honesty, I have no idea what they questions in a lot of mouths. It would not have warships. would be—but if we are going to spend about £25 billion It would not have submarines. It would need offshore on the capital costs of renewing Trident, I would not be patrol vessels, some sort of aerial offshore patrol and in the least surprised to see the same sum spent all over helicopters, but it would not need the spectrum of again if anybody were seriously to undertake the fraught things that the United Kingdom armed forces have. It project of relocation to another site. In a practical would be a different beast altogether. sense, it is all quite unnecessary, and it would take an The fact of the matter is that Faslane, in its entirety, enormous length of time. I do not see anything incredible taking the nuclear deterrent, the non-nuclear submarines about the estimates of 20 years. and the entire supply and support chain, is Scotland’s 351WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 352WH
[Sir Nick Harvey] It is vital for us to be part of NATO and to contribute adequately to the alliance. It is important to show that largest single employment site. As far as I can see, there not only Scotland but Britain and Europe are part of would be virtually nothing there if we took the site away NATO. It exists for a reason. Simply put, we might not from Faslane. There would be a small requirement for a be having this debate today were we not a member of navy, but that would be a strange place to put it, as we NATO. The SNP wants to send Scotland’s nuclear heard earlier. The constituency of my hon. Friend the deterrent a few hundred miles down the road so that it Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) would therefore can say that it opposes nuclear weapons, because it be looking at ruination. Work such as that on the future believes that to be popular. The policy might help the of Barrow and elsewhere would need to be done. SNP to win the vote in 2014. Clearly, the goal is never No one should be in any doubt that this issue is a what the best policy for Scotland is but what will help massive part of the independence debate. The consequences win the referendum. for Scotland need to be assessed and analysed carefully, NATO is clear about its position on nuclear weapons. and the headache presented to a UK Government who Its strategic concept states: wished to continue the nuclear deterrent would be immense. Finally, we should not assume that Scottish independence “As long as nuclear weapons exist, NATO will remain a is to be equated with the SNP ruling for ever in Edinburgh. nuclear alliance.” It might well be that an election would return a Scottish Government of a completely different political hue, and The SNP has been arguing the point. It wants to join some of the issues would then start looking very different. the club but it has been arguing against the rules before even being granted membership. The SNP likes to have a grand, international, catch-all comparison in its desperate 4pm attempts to justify its assertions. None of us has yet forgotten the arc of prosperity, which has already been Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): The hon. mentioned today. The SNP has quoted Norway as a Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) country with an anti-nuclear stance that is still a member hoped that another member of the Scottish Affairs of NATO, but forgets that the country was a founding Committee would speak, because he had asked why our member of NATO. It also chooses to ignore the fact report had made it clear that it would be possible to that Norway has mandatory military service. Denmark, remove nuclear weapons from Scotland in only days. To too, is often quoted, but again the SNP ignores its be clear, the report stated that removing them was historical relationship with NATO as a founding member possible, but that it would be at the expense of the entire and the fact that the country supports the holding of UK not having a nuclear deterrent and of damaging the nuclear weapons through membership. I have not yet NATO deterrent. heard exactly how the SNP has come to the position of A lot of the issues in the report have been covered in wanting the protection of nuclear weapons but not the debate today, so I will restrict my comments in the being willing to have them in its own backyard. There is little time we have left to the effect on our international no precedent for a country that has kicked out a nuclear relationships and in particular our membership of NATO. deterrent to join NATO. Canada and Greece were I am disappointed at the lack of clarity from the SNP mentioned, but they were opposed to US weapons on Members present today about how Trident would be their soil, and the two positions are simply not comparable. removed and the effect that that would have. It almost goes without saying that the first responsibility An SNP alternative for a separate Scotland might be of any Government is the defence of their nation. That, to follow Belarus and Kazakhstan into the Collective however, does not seem to be a priority for the SNP Security Treaty Organisation, which includes countries Government in Edinburgh, nor does the entire A4 page that formerly had nuclear weapons on their soil. Frankly, on defence policy published last year inspire any confidence a separate Scotland is more likely to be granted membership that defence is a top priority among their aspirations of the CSTO than of NATO. NATO would not let in a for a separate Scotland. Their only priority seems to be country that has removed nuclear weapons quickly, to win a referendum in 2014. That is why they ditched a causing not only Scotland but the entire UK not to have long-held opposition to NATO. The SNP held a view a nuclear deterrent and reducing the nuclear deterrent for 60 years, but dropped it at one meeting in a desperate capability of NATO as a whole. No countries in NATO attempt to fool public opinion, which has consistently have got rid of their nuclear weapons. shown popular support for Scotland’s membership of More importantly, on joining NATO a separate Scotland NATO. might be obliged to sign up to everything that NATO The organisation was born at the end of the second requires of its members, including allowing nuclear world war and the start of the cold war, and many weapons in their waters, and article 5, which states that countries around the world are still queuing up for an attack on one member of the alliance is an attack on membership. The reason for the length of that queue is all members and will be acted on, and not only with UN obvious: we are proud of being part of NATO, and sanctions as the SNP put forward in its defence document. membership is not only a hoop to be jumped through. It is not possible only to pursue a pick-and-mix approach, NATO membership has allowed us, as a small country, as the SNP regularly asserts. Regardless of that, I have to contribute to preventing the slaughter of Muslims in seen no evidence that the SNP has discussed the options Kosovo and Bosnia, to protecting women and children with NATO. Has the Minister had any discussions with in Afghanistan from the Taliban and to securing our NATO about the possibilities of a separate Scotland safety in the UK. NATO has played a vital role in joining? What effect on Scotland and the UK’s membership humanitarian relief, helping after the Pakistan earthquake would there be if an SNP Government in a separate and Hurricane Katrina. Scotland disarmed the UK of its nuclear capability? 353WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 354WH
Does the Minister have any evidence for the Scottish which is why we are awaiting the outcome of the alternatives Government having asked NATO about the possibility review. Our position has been clear throughout. If the of a separate Scotland joining? hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete When countries should be pulling together to face the Wishart) does not believe me, CND and Labour CND new challenges of a fast-changing world, the SNP logic have tweeted that I said that here today. If he will not is to break up Britain and to gamble with Scotland and take my word, perhaps he will take their word. I do not the UK’s security and their membership of NATO. We often rely on them for comments. need the SNP to be open and honest about the defence of Scotland if it breaks away from the rest of the UK. Pete Wishart: Will the hon. Lady clarify Labour’s The SNP needs to acknowledge the facts and choose position on the nuclear deterrent? What is its trend of evidence over ideology, as the Scottish people have the thinking? Will a Labour Government renew Trident, or right to make an informed decision in 2014. They need not ? to know that, while other countries are queuing up to join NATO, the only mainstream party in the UK that Gemma Doyle: I am happy to repeat that as often as wants to risk losing membership of the alliance is the the hon. Gentleman wants, but I suspect that colleagues SNP. That would not be in the interests of the people of would like me to move on. I have said again and again Scotland or of the United Kingdom. that we are awaiting the outcome of the alternatives May I just add, Mr Rosindell, that I hope you will review and, as I have just said, we are committed to forgive me for making a sharp exit, as I have the retaining a minimum, independent, credible, alternative Adjournment debate in the main Chamber this evening? deterrent. Before deciding how that will be provided, we Missing one Adjournment debate in a year might be await the review, as do all other parties in Parliament, seen as an unfortunate error, but missing two would be and we will then see what it says. I have told the hon. seen as careless. Gentleman this about four times, and I hope that he now understands the position. I am a little concerned about progress on the review. I 4.7 pm understand that the Royal Navy has not been asked for Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): its opinion, and it should be. I believe that the Chief It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Mr Rosindell. I am grateful to have the opportunity to Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny contribute to this important debate and to follow my Alexander), who is leading the review, does not even hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela have a pass for the Ministry of Defence building, so I Nash), who made an important contribution, bringing am not sure what work is ongoing, but everyone is the perspective of the vital international context to our eagerly awaiting it. discussions. As she said, the defence and security of any We absolutely support a policy of multilateral nation or state is the key responsibility of a Government. disarmament, and like everyone who has spoken here Debates on the future of the nuclear deterrent have today, I want a world free of nuclear weapons. The last been and will continue to be an important aspect of the Labour Government made progress in reducing the referendum discussions that are already well under way number of warheads from 300 to 160 just before the throughout Scotland and indeed the rest of the UK. 2010 election. The significance of the issue has been demonstrated by The Committee outlined a number of alternative the decision of the Scottish Affairs Committee to focus possibilities for the deterrent’s future, and it is clear that one of its inquiries fully on the subject. Furthermore, if the people of Scotland vote to break off from the rest we have Members from throughout the rest of the UK of the UK, a separate Scotland will have to decide, in attending the debate today, which shows how important negotiation with the UK Government, the future of the it is. The report, which I read with interest, raises a nuclear deterrent, whoever the Government of a newly number of key points about the deterrent and points separate Scotland are. I do not presume, as the hon. out possible outcomes and situations that might arise. Member for Perth and North Perthshire did, that that The facts about the available options for the future of will be an SNP Government. The nationalists have, as the deterrent, were Scotland to leave the UK, leave no with all other issues, made a series of assertions without one feeling particularly satisfied with any of the potential any basis, so it falls to us to consider the reality. outcomes. The Committee considered that if the Government of The UK’s nuclear deterrent has been the cornerstone a newly separate Scotland decided that they no longer of our national security for more than half a century, wanted to house the nuclear deterrent or, conversely, if and although the cold war divisions have gone, they the Government of the remaining UK decided they did have been replaced with new threats. We support retention not want to base the capability in a foreign country, one of the minimum, credible, independent nuclear deterrent. option might be for the deterrent to be decommissioned The last Parliament voted to proceed with the initial and taken out of service. However, that does not seem stages of renewal, and we support that decision, although likely because the UK Government are committed to I am aware that some hon. Members here today voted retain a nuclear deterrent. in a different way in Parliament. The Committee also looked at the options for the We eagerly await the outcome of the Lib Dem alternatives short-term relocation of Trident, and specifically how review. I confirm that the comments attributed to my the UK’s allies might be involved in providing a temporary right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire base. One option would be to work with the USA at its (Mr Murphy), the shadow Secretary of State, and to submarine base in Georgia, but, as the Committee me in this debate are not the case. I stated clearly that noted, questions would probably arise about the perceived we had not committed to like-for-like renewal of Trident, independence of the capability. For most people, 355WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 356WH
[Gemma Doyle] The nationalists want to assure us that when they have told the Royal Navy to take all their submarines, independence is a key desire behind having a nuclear nuclear-armed and nuclear-powered, out of Scottish deterrent, and the same argument might be applied to waters, nothing will change at Faslane and Coulport. I the Committee’s consideration of stationing the deterrent have even heard a west of Scotland MSP claim that in France. Although it is closer and the geography more people will be employed at Faslane after separation. would make things easier, there might be problem with I hope that they are beginning to realise how ridiculous finding sufficient space to house it. their claims are, because they are insulting my constituents. A more likely outcome is that the UK Government The nationalists should make no mistake. Without the would seek to relocate the capability elsewhere in the Vanguard subs, there will be no Faslane and no jobs, UK. Hon. Members will be aware from the Committee’s but a seriously wounded local economy. report that relocation of the deterrent is not a simple When the Navy has gone, the civilian jobs will go, process. Apart from identification of an alternative site because they support the Navy. An employer to whom I and the issues of physical relocation, the exercise would spoke recently acknowledged that removal of Faslane be extremely expensive. Some sources have suggested would mean starting with a blank sheet of paper. It that it could cost £20 billion to £25 billion. The previous would not mean, as the SNP want to say, that jobs will Minister for the Armed Forces made it clear that the be protected. cost would dwarf the £3.5 billion cost of recent upgrade The SNP says that it would have a joint service work at Faslane. headquarters as well as basing the Scottish navy at I have visited the naval base on the Clyde. Any other Faslane, but they will not give us any detail. I watched hon. Members who have done so will know that it is the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire nodding akin to a small town with a range of facilities and vigorously as Members challenged him, asking him accommodation, as well as the necessary equipment very politely to provide information in his speech, but and infrastructure to provide a centre for our submarines. he gave not one jot of detail. There was nothing at all. Estimates that the deterrent will remain in Scotland Even the retired Lieutenant-Colonel Stuart Crawford, for anything up to 20 years while a new base is developed whom I would describe—I hope I am not misrepresenting raise serious questions, which need to be addressed and him—as an independent military expert who is sympathetic which cast significant doubt on the nationalists’ view to the idea of independence, stated that the maximum that voting for separation equals unilateral disarmament. number of jobs that he could see Faslane supporting I am far from convinced that even unilateralists would would be around 1,000 to 1,500. That is his opinion, not see that as a victory, and comments during the debate mine. today back that up. I believe in multilateral disarmament, Other commentators have asked, as did my constituency and there would not be a victory for anyone in simply neighbour,the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), moving the nuclear capability deterrent 165 miles south. that if the primary job of the Scottish navy is to protect Surely our interests are best served by working the oil platforms, what sense does it make to base the internationally with our allies, partners and other countries naval capability on the west coast of Scotland? Do not towards multilateral disarmament. get me wrong—I will always argue for that, no matter The UK is committed to retaining a deterrent, so the what situation we are in, but we have to look at the facts most likely outcome is relocation to elsewhere in the here. It is worth noting that the job of protecting the oil UK. That would mean removal of Faslane and with it platforms is currently done by non-militarised agencies, thousands of jobs on the base and in our wider industry, so I am not sure how those people would feel about the future of which is far from certain under these their jobs being shunted, so that Salmond’s navy can plans. The report states: come in to take over. “Several witnesses in our inquiry commented on the vacuum Today is a very significant day in the referendum of discussion on how separation would affect defence in Scotland”. campaign because public scrutiny is being given to a leaked Scottish Government Cabinet document, which More than one major defence employer in Scotland the Minister has referred to. It reveals the truth about have recently expressed similar concerns to me that the nationalists’ spending plans in a separate Scotland. there is so little detail about the nationalists’ plans for It is worth looking at exactly what it says. On defence, separation and defence in a separate Scotland that it is the Scottish Finance Secretary, John Swinney, wrote: extremely difficult seriously to engage in any way with the question of what separation would mean for defence “Historically defence spending in Scotland has been lower and the defence industry in Scotland. That is a fair than Scotland’s population share of the UK defence budget.” comment. In saying that, he demonstrates that he, like his colleagues, does not understand that spending on overseas operations Most sensible people would say that if the case has cannot be attributed to various parts of the regions and not been made and information is not there, the answer nations of the UK. He continues: must be no. The nationalists are certainly failing to put any meat on the bones of their randomised top-line “I have made clear to the Defence Workstream that a much lower budget must be assumed.” numbers. I can give them some numbers: 6,500 jobs at the naval base, about half and half military and civilian, I hope that the bluster will now stop. There will be less and a conservative estimate of 4,500 jobs supported money, and not more, spent in a separate Scotland on throughout the wider economy with £270 million pumped defence. into the Scottish economy every year. That is what the I am just checking how long I have been speaking nationalists want to scrap. The shop stewards are right for—I could go on, but I will draw my comments to a to demand answers. They deserve to have the information close, so that the Minister has enough time to sum up. to give to their members so that we can have a proper All I would say in conclusion is that I do not see how discussion. anybody can be particularly happy or satisfied with 357WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 358WH the outcome of the possibilities for the deterrent— Pete Wishart: The Minister says that he is interested [Interruption.] I have already told the hon. Member for in multilateral disarmament, but why are the UK Perth and North Perthshire what our position is, so he Government perhaps the only Government in the world can pipe down, quite honestly. I do not see how anyone who are investing in unilateral nuclear rearmament, can be satisfied with the outcomes for what would with Trident renewal? happen to the deterrent in a separate Scotland. It is highly unlikely that the situation would lead to unilateral disarmament, and it is highly likely that thousands of Mr Robathan: The hon. Gentleman, if I might say so, jobs on the west coast of Scotland would be lost. That is reveals a certain ignorance, as the point is that weaponry what the nationalists are arguing for today. has to be kept up to date. It is rather like saying, “Could we not use a one-rupee jezail when fighting in Afghanistan?” I am afraid that those were the days of Kipling, and 4.23 pm while the Afghans may have been very accurate, we The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew prefer to use modern weaponry. Robathan): It is a joy to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, especially since we had such happy days The UK has an excellent record in fulfilling its together in the Whips Office in opposition. disarmament obligations—as the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) said, in relation to the We have had a good debate. I find myself in an previous Government—under the nuclear non-proliferation unusual situation. Normally, I face serried ranks of treaty, as demonstrated by the latest round of stockpile Labour MPs who throw metaphorical bricks at me. reductions that we announced in the strategic defence Often, I have serried ranks behind me throwing similar and security review. We probably have the smallest metaphorical bricks, but today, we have been remarkably nuclear force of the recognised nuclear weapon states consensual, pace the two hon. Gentleman from the and uniquely, the UK relies on a single platform, a SNP. I have found it an interesting, if rather one-sided, single weapon system and single warhead design for the debate. delivery of its nuclear deterrent. I will make my personal views known. I am an Englishman. My father was born in Wales, and therefore, However, we continue to work to create a safer and I have Welsh ancestry. I am a Conservative MP, self- more stable world in which the UK and others can evidently, and some commentators, from time to time, relinquish their nuclear weapons, but we are not there suggest that the Conservatives should wish to see Scotland yet. Therefore, nuclear arsenals remain, as does the leave the United Kingdom, because it would be for the danger of further proliferation, especially in regions of Conservatives’ benefit electorally. Can I say that I and instability and tension, so we believe that a nuclear the Government disagree entirely with that? I think that deterrent is likely to remain an important element of all the peoples—including the Scots—in the United our national security. Given the uncertainties of the Kingdom would be very much poorer to see the end of international environment, it would be folly to pursue a the United Kingdom. I, and the Government, would policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament. As President very much regret a victory for the siren voices of small- Obama said in Prague in 2009, the threat of nuclear war minded separatism in the referendum next year. has gone down, but the threat of nuclear attack has gone up. The first duty of Government is defence of the realm, to ensure the security of the nation, its people and its The UK’s nuclear weapon capability is designed to interests. The Government are unwaveringly committed deter and thereby prevent blackmail and acts of aggression to that duty. Consequently, like all post-war against our vital interests that cannot be countered by Governments—Labour, Conservative and now the other means. It also supports collective security, through coalition—we regard a nuclear deterrent as an essential NATO, for the Euro-Atlantic area. The UK Government contribution to our security. The strategic defence and have thus committed to maintain the strategic nuclear security review of 2010 makes it clear that the nuclear deterrent and to continue with the programme to renew deterrent provides the ultimate guarantee of our national it as debated and approved by a significant majority in security against the most extreme risks from nuclear-armed Parliament in March 2007. adversaries. The Government’s policy is that the Vanguard class The recent test by North Korea of a nuclear device, in submarines will be replaced at the end of their lives, in defiance of the international community and the good the late 2020s and early 2030s, by a successor submarine, examples that many in the international community again carrying the Trident missile, subject to main gate show, as well as the continuing uncertainties over Iran’s investment approval due in 2016. The Government are nuclear programme, underline the fact that we continue committed to continuous at-sea deterrence. In times of to live in a dangerous world, in which we have little tensions or crisis, such a posture neither escalates nor ability to predict what threats we may face in future. As de-escalates matters and maximises political freedom of long as the threat of nuclear proliferation continues, the manoeuvre. A submarine-launched ballistic missile system Government simply will not gamble with the security of offers invulnerability, range and endurance. All promote future generations of British people. the credibility of that deterrent and provide the ultimate This Government, in line with our predecessors, are safeguard for our national security. I pay tribute to the firmly committed to multilateral disarmament. Personally, crews of our submarines and their families, and all the I wish to see total nuclear disarmament, but it has to be men and women, both military and civilian—including multilateral, not unilateral. When I was in the Army—as at Faslane—engaged in Operation Relentless, our country’s I was for many years—I considered the prospect of a most enduring current operation, which has been in nuclear conflict so horrific that it would have meant place for nearly 45 years. I thank them—Scots, English, that there was no point in fighting on any more. Irish and Welsh—for their unwavering dedication. 359WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 360WH
[Mr Robathan] submarine centre of specialisation and associated contractor and base support is a matter of pride, I would have The UK Government’s position on the referendum thought, for the UK, for Faslane and for Scotland. on Scottish separation is clear: Scotland benefits from As the collocation benefits would be required in any being part of the UK and the UK benefits from having alternative location, there would be no question but Scotland within it. Scotland has played an indispensable that the entirety of the submarine enterprise on the role in the development and history of the multi-nation Clyde would be relocated if the nuclear deterrent force UK. As a result, the UK has developed and flourished, had to move. It is for those who demand the withdrawal and its constitution, laws and institutions underpin one of the Vanguard-class submarines from Faslane to explain of the most successful partnerships of nations in history. how the quality and quantity of employment in the If the result of the referendum on Scottish separation region would be matched if the enterprise had to be were to lead to the current situation being challenged, relocated. other options would have to be considered. It would be As the UK Government have no plans to disarm an enormous challenge to reproduce the facilities that unilaterally, there would inevitably be significant time we have at Faslane elsewhere, as we have heard, and any and cost implications if an independent Scottish alternative solution would come at huge cost. It is Government demanded the withdrawal of the UK impossible to estimate how much that would be, as it deterrent. For reasons that I have already described, the would depend on many factors, including time scales UK Government will not pre-negotiate the departure of and the precise scope of the facilities that might be Scotland from the UK. Therefore, scenarios mentioned required, but it would cost billions of pounds and take in the Scottish Affairs Committee report under which many years. the UK may negotiate a basing agreement for the Let me now make this point about Her deterrent with an independent Scottish Government Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde. The hon. Member for will not be discussed prior to the outcome of the West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) represents— referendum and, God willing, will never need to be [Interruption]—a constituency not far away; the hon. discussed. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) does indeed As was said by the hon. Member for Airdrie and represent Clyde itself, and Helensburgh, where I went Shotts (Pamela Nash), who has just left the Chamber, last year. Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde underwent a NATO is a nuclear alliance, and it will remain a nuclear significant investment programme to prepare it for the alliance while nuclear weapons remain in existence. introduction of the Vanguard-class submarines and the NATO’s “Strategic Concept”of 2010 and the “Deterrence Trident missile system. That programme cost in the and Defence Posture Review” adopted at the NATO region of £3.5 billion at today’s prices, and that built on summit in Chicago in May only last year make that decades of investment in the base infrastructure and unambiguously clear. Those documents also make it associated housing. clear that In April 1963, the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, Ian “The supreme guarantee of the security of the Allies is provided by the strategic nuclear forces of the Alliance, particularly those Orr-Ewing, whom I remember and who died only about of the United States; the independent strategic nuclear forces of 15 years ago, informed the House that the operating the United Kingdom and France, which have a deterrent role of base for the then planned fleet of Resolution-class their own, contribute to the overall deterrence and security of the Polaris ballistic missile submarines needed to be near Allies.” deep water; to offer easy navigational access; and to be The contribution made by the UK’s nuclear forces is a short distance by sea from the associated armament much valued by our NATO allies, and membership of depot. He informed the House that it had been decided NATO comes with responsibilities. One cannot join that Faslane was the area that was operationally most NATO and pretend that it is not a nuclear alliance, for it suitable for the basing of the submarine fleet. My hon. is, and one cannot join NATO and reject the concept of Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) nuclear burden sharing within the alliance. pointed out that it is a perfect site. In this varied United Kingdom, we do not have a better site. It is clear to me that a separate Scotland would face difficult choices about its defence arrangements. That That decision was reviewed in the early 1980s, alongside would include decisions on the role of its armed forces, the decision to introduce the Vanguard-class submarines. what threats it intended to counter and what foreign At that time, it was concluded that the Clyde continued policy it intended to support—quite a bit of work to offer the best location. Nothing has happened since required there, then—its international relationships, to alter that conclusion. Indeed, the Clyde has been including membership of NATO; the level of resources chosen as the submarine centre of specialisation, and allocated to defence, which we have just heard about all our submarines will be based there by the end of this from Mr Swinney; and the future of the defence industry decade, which brings the additional benefits to the in Scotland. region that have been mentioned. It is indeed the case that people in Scotland need to We have mentioned employment at Her Majesty’s know how the Scottish Government propose to provide Naval Base Clyde, but I now return to that, because it is for the protection and security of Scotland if it separates, the largest employment site in Scotland. The base is a God forbid, from the UK. It is the UK Government’s major source of employment for highly skilled workers view that whatever choice it makes, a separate Scotland and a significant contributor to the local economy. The would lose significant benefits in this area that are rise in the number of jobs during the next decade currently delivered by Scotland being part of the United accompanies the move to base all royal naval submarines Kingdom. One of those benefits is the security that is on the Clyde to achieve economies of scale and the provided by the armed forces of the United Kingdom, greater effectiveness of collocation. That symbiosis of a including the strategic nuclear deterrent. 361WH Scottish Referendum (Trident)7 MARCH 2013 Scottish Referendum (Trident) 362WH
Our nuclear deterrent has contributed to both our It seems to me that we are now in a position in which, security and that of our NATO allies since the 1950s, having established, as a result of this report and subsequent and the continuous at-sea deterrence posture has been discussions, what the alternatives are on timing, we are the central feature of our deterrence since the late also pretty clear on where one of the parameters is in 1960s. As the Trident system has been our sole nuclear terms of jobs. The shop stewards told us earlier today weapons system since 1998, our nuclear deterrence posture about the 50 years of job security with the United is now based exclusively on CASD. Although, as I Kingdom. There are 6,700 jobs, rising to 8,200 jobs, have said, I personally am committed and we as a with the UK. But with separation, the position is unknown. Government are committed to multilateral disarmament, In those circumstances, we as a Committee will be, on the circumstances that would justify the relinquishing both this occasion and others, drawing attention to of our submarine-based deterrent do not currently prevail what appears to be a complete vacuum of policy from and are unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future. For the SNP on the question of defence. That cannot continue. that reason, I reiterate that we have no plans to move We owe it not only to the people of Scotland, who are the deterrent from Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde, going to vote in about October 2014, but to the work which has a bright future not only as the base for all our force, who require pre-warning of what might happen submarines but as the UK’s submarine centre of to their jobs and the ability to pre-plan. We cannot specialisation. surprise them with a decision one day that something is going to happen the next day. If they wish to leave their 4.36 pm present employment, as a result of cuts coming down the road, to seek a job elsewhere, they need time to Mr Davidson: This has been a very good debate. prepare. Their children are at school. They need to start There has been a very good turnout. I am particularly deciding whether it is desirable or necessary to find a happy that the Select Committee report seems to have job somewhere else. Family ties will be disrupted by job been universally welcomed. That will certainly gladden losses. the members of the Committee and, indeed, the staff who worked with us in its preparation. I particularly I want to close by saying to the Government that I enjoyed the fierce attack on the Scottish Affairs Committee hope they will also do as much as they can to clarify the that was made by one of the separatists at the same time position. I saw one of the other Defence Ministers here as they were welcoming the report—no problem there, earlier. I hope that both Ministers will take account of then. the report we produced on separation shutting shipyards and be clear about their intentions for placing orders It is only fair at this stage to make it absolutely clear for the Type 26 between now and the referendum. If that the proposal that “The Referendum on Separation they cannot be clear, or if they wish to say that no for Scotland” would be the wording of the heading for orders will be placed before the referendum, they need our series of reports was actually unanimously agreed to indicate what will be done to ensure that yards by the Committee in a meeting at which the SNP was remain open between now and then. The yards engaged present. The SNP member of the Committee did agree in building aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy are fast that wording. She subsequently got a row from her running out of work and might not be there to build the colleagues and then produced a press statement, which Type 26, even if Scotland remains within the United led to her being rebuked for misbehaviour by the other Kingdom, unless they are given fill-in work. members of the Committee, but she did actually agree that wording. It was alleged that we were too hard in rebuking The question is what will happen not only to Faslane her. Let me make it clear that there were 14 witnesses in and Coulport, which we have heard about today, but to that Committee, not one of whom corroborates the Scotland’s shipyards and, as we intend to show in other version of events given by the SNP.It is worth while just reports that the Committee will produce shortly, every making that point clear. other industrial site in Scotland that is connected to defence. All those questions require answering. I hope I will move on, and I hope that the SNP will also that I and other members of the Committee and its staff move on from the politics of smear and character can bring out reports in the future that will be greeted assassination and will stop trying to play the man and with universal acclaim similar to that which greeted this not the ball. I am glad that for at least some of the report, and that we will have similarly fruitful debates. SNP’s contribution, Members engaged in the debate and were prepared to argue on the issues, because I We are moving towards one of the major decisions to think that the discussions that we have had today have be taken in the life of every Scot here and elsewhere. moved the debate forward quite considerably. I think Full debate is essential. If the separatists wish to have that there is recognition on all sides that the parameters an open debate, they must provide answers. The Committee that we have spelt out in our report are universally has identified the areas that require clarification; it is accepted—that that is the area that the debate will focus now up to them to fill the gaps. Thank you, Mr Rosindell. on in terms of timing. We have had a clear indication Question put and agreed to. from the SNP about its position in relation to those. It has not been absolutely explicit, but nor, to be fair, have 4.42 pm the UK Government yet. Sitting adjourned.
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I can now confirm that RPA met its second performance Written Ministerial target more than five weeks ahead of schedule. By 19 February 2013 the agency had paid more than 98.4% Statements of volume and 97.2% of value. This is the best ever performance on the part of the Thursday 7 March 2013 agency which has now exceeded both of its SPS performance targets as well as meeting its EU benchmark TREASURY more than four months early. A total of £1.6 billion has Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill now been paid to more than 102,000 English farmers. The agency has been working to a ministerial The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): commitment to pay 84% of payments by value and I have today deposited in the Libraries of both Houses 91% of customers by number by 31 December 2012, and drafts of the following secondary legislation to be made 97% of payments and 97% of customers by end March under the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill: 2013. The EU benchmark is to pay more than 95.238% The draft Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Ring-fenced of the scheme fund value by the end of June. Bodies and Core Activities) Order; The draft Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Excluded OFWAT (Repayable Cash Advance) Activities and Prohibitions) Order; The draft Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Fees TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, and Prescribed International Organisations) Order. Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): An urgent These illustrative drafts are for the benefit of Members cash advance of £1.5 million is required to fund Ofwat’s in advance of the Second Reading of the Bill. The immediate operating cost commitments and prevent Government will formally publish a draft of all secondary default to contractual suppliers while we await Royal legislation for public consultation later in the year. Assent of supplementary estimates. Loan to Ireland Ofwat is heavily committed currently to a range of major projects that rely on the expert input of a number of specialist suppliers. Without this input Ofwat would The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): be unable to regulate effectively and protect the interests I would like to update the House on the loan to Ireland. of 52 million consumers in England and Wales. Ofwat Ireland completed the eighth quarterly review of its contracts with a large number of SMEs and therefore it International Monetary Fund and European Union is in the public interest that we make payment promptly programme of financial assistance on 23 January 2013, within agreed contractual terms. following which the utilisation period for the sixth Parliamentary approval for additional resources of instalment of the UK bilateral loan began. £3 million was sought in a supplementary estimate for Upon request, the Treasury disbursed the sixth instalment 2012-13 on 13 February for the water services regulation of £403.37 million on 6 March 2013, with a maturity authority. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure date of 7 September 2020. estimated at £1.5 million will be met by repayable cash The interest rate charged on the loan is calculated as advances from the contingencies fund. set out in the loan agreement as the UK’s cost of funds plus a service fee of 18 basis points per annum, creating an effective per annum interest rate on this tranche of FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE the loan of 2.312%. The UK more than covers its cost of funds. Foreign Affairs and General Affairs Councils The Treasury will provide a further report to Parliament in relation to the bilateral loan as required under the The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My Loans to Ireland Act 2010 as soon as is practicable right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and following the end of the next reporting period, which Commonwealth Affairs will attend the Foreign Affairs ends on 31 March 2013. Council (FAC) and I will attend the General Affairs The Government believe that it is in our national Council (GAC), both on 11 March in Brussels. The interest that the Irish economy is successful and its Foreign Affairs Council will be chaired by the High banking system is stable. The Government continue to Representative of the European Union for Foreign support Ireland’s efforts to improve its economic situation. Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland, and the General Affairs Council will be chaired by the ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Irish presidency. Russia Single Payment Scheme Ministers will have a broad discussion on the EU-Russia relationship. Conclusions are not expected. This discussion The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food will provide an opportunity to exchange views on the and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): I made a statement importance of the EU’s trade relationship with Russia, on 6 December 2012, Official Report, column 76WS as well as underlining member states’ concerns on human about payments to farmers in England under the EU rights and democratic standards. This discussion will common agricultural policy single payment scheme (SPS) serve as preparation for consideration of the EU’s strategic for 2012. I informed the House that the Rural Payments relationship with Russia at the European Council on Agency (RPA) met its December 2012 target for SPS 15 March. The FAC discussion will take place ahead of payments on the first banking day of the payment the visit of the Russian Foreign and Defence Ministers window. to London on 13 March. 71WS Written Ministerial Statements7 MARCH 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 72WS
Southern Neighbourhood On external relations, the European Council will discuss strategic partners focusing on EU-Russia relations. Ministers will discuss events in Egypt and Tunisia. We expect that the preparation for this part of the We believe that the EU should encourage inclusive European Council agenda, and any discussion on foreign political transition and protection of human rights. The policy, will primarily be covered in the Foreign Affairs UK will argue that EU support to these countries needs Council, but GAC Ministers may also want to use this to be ambitious and well communicated, with clear opportunity to guide discussions at the European Council. progress on agreed political and economic reforms matched They may also raise issues that have read-across to the with further support. We will support an EU observer broader work of the GAC such as the European mission for the Egyptian parliamentary elections. neighbourhood policy or Heading 4 funding. Ministers will also discuss the current situation in Syria and will be joined over lunch by the United Nations and the Arab League Joint Special Representative HOME DEPARTMENT for Syria, Lakhdar Brahimi. Japan Violence Against Women and Girls Action Plan 2013 The EU-Japan summit will take place on 25 March in Tokyo and Ministers will discuss the EU’s priorities for The Secretary of State for the Home Department that summit. Negotiations on the EU-Japan free trade (Mrs Theresa May): Tomorrow, on international women’s agreement (FTA) and framework agreement, which the day, the Government are publishing an updated violence UK strongly supports, will be launched at that summit. against women and girls action plan. A copy will be The EU and Japan will also agree to work together placed in the Library of the House. more closely on issues such as the growth agenda, Last year around 1.2 million women suffered domestic climate change, energy policy and international issues abuse and around 400,000 were sexually assaulted. This of the day, such as the Democratic People’s Republic of is wholly unacceptable. We are determined, not just to Korea (DPRK), Iran and Syria. reduce, but to end violence against women and girls. Iran Two and a half years ago we set out our strategy to end violence against women and girls. Our key themes This discussion will focus on the recent E3+3 (UK, of prevention, provision of good-quality services, improved France, Germany, China, Russia, US) nuclear talks partnership working, better justice outcomes and risk with Iran in Almaty, where a confidence-building measure reduction remain as relevant today as when we first was put to Iran. We will make it clear that while Iran’s agreed our approach. agreement to further meetings is welcome, there is no sign yet of a significant shift in the Iranian position. If This action plan updates the efforts underpinning Iran makes no progress on addressing our most immediate that strategy, and sets out significant progress since the concerns about its nuclear programme, we will need to last report was published a year ago. We are also alive to tighten existing measures to increase the pressure it faces. new and emerging issues and the updated plan includes a renewed focus on challenging the attitudes that foster Kenya violence against women and girls. Ministers will discuss the conduct and outcome of We are proud of the progress this Government have the elections held on 4 March in Kenya. made in protecting the lives of women and girls, but there is still much more to do. This action plan confirms GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL our ongoing commitment to stop the violence and The 11 March GAC will focus on preparation for the abuse which blights the lives of too many women and 14-15 March European Council. The European Council girls. agenda has two items that the GAC will consider: Economic policy and external relations (in conjunction with the FAC). LEADER OF THE HOUSE After the plenary session there will be a meeting with the President of the European Council, Herman van State Opening of Parliament Rompuy. We expect this to focus on political directions for the European semester and European monetary union. The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew 14-15 March European Council preparation Lansley): Her Majesty the Queen will open a new Session The economic policy agenda item covers the European of this Parliament on Wednesday 8 May 2013. semester, the annual cycle of economic policy co-ordination in the EU, which begins each year with the publication TRANSPORT of the Commission’s annual growth survey. The European Council will set growth and structural reform priorities EU Transport Council for the EU and the member states for the year ahead. The March Council will also take stock of member states’ progress in implementing reform commitments The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick under the 2012 country-specific recommendations and McLoughlin): I will attend the first Transport Council will provide broad guidance to member states on the of the Irish presidency (the presidency) taking place in 2013 stability and convergence programmes and national Brussels on Monday 11 March. reform programmes. Ministers will also discuss progress There will be an introductory discussion on the proposal on formulating next steps in deepening European monetary for a directive of the European Parliament and of the union, as a staging post towards the June European Council on the interoperability of the rail system within Council meeting at which this will be a central focus. the European Union (recast) (part of the fourth railway 73WS Written Ministerial Statements7 MARCH 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 74WS package). The UK is keen to hear the range of views At the same time the Government must consider the and will then need to further consider the impacts position of those who legitimately and safely use medicines through consultation with our stakeholders. which may contain controlled drugs. We recognise that There will be an exchange of views on a proposal for for the purposes of drug testing, distinguishing between a directive of the European Parliament and of the those drugs which do have medical uses and those Council on the deployment of alternative fuels infrastructure which do not is complex. We must ensure that the new and on a communication from the Commission on offence would not unduly penalise drivers who have “Clean Power for Transport: A European alternative taken properly prescribed or supplied drugs in line with fuels strategy”, making up the clean power for transport medical advice. package. The UK strongly supports the transition to Later in the year the Government will make specific cleaner transport and has the ambitious vision of almost proposals regarding the drugs to be specified in regulations every car and van reaching zero CO2 emission levels at for the new offence. These proposals will be subject to a the tailpipe by 2050. public consultation. After taking account of any responses While I recognise that alternative fuels infrastructure received, regulations containing the final proposals would is an area that can benefit from support, I am not then need to be approved by Parliament before they convinced that setting rigid, mandatory targets for the could become law. deployment of technology-specific infrastructure is an I am placing a copy of the panel’s report in the House effective way of building consumer confidence in new Libraries. technology. A progress report will be provided on a proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council WORK AND PENSIONS on occurrence reporting in civil aviation amending Regulation (EU) No. 996/2010 and repealing directive 2003/42/EC, Commission Regulation (EC) No. 1321/2007 Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer and Commission Regulation (EC) No. 1330/2007. I Affairs Council fully support this proposal and welcome the progress that has been made. Under any other business, the Commission will provide The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions information on the aviation emissions trading scheme (Mr Mark Hoban): The Employment, Social Policy, (ETS) and on the EU-Brazil comprehensive air transport Health and Consumer Affairs Council met on 28 February agreement. 2013 in Brussels. I represented the UK. There was a discussion on the European semester 2013 focusing on the priorities for action highlighted in Road Safety the annual growth survey (AGS) and joint employment report (JER). The UK stressed the need to ensure that the Europe 2020 process focused on supporting delivery The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport of difficult reforms needed to recover from the crisis. (Stephen Hammond): Drug driving is a menace on our Ministers subsequently adopted Council conclusions roads with an estimated 200 drug-driving related deaths on the AGS and the JER. Ministers also agreed a a year in Great Britain. The Government have a zero general approach on the guidelines for the employment tolerance approach to illegal drug use and it is important policies of the member states and endorsed the main that we send the strongest possible message that you messages contained within the Social Protection cannot take illegal drugs and drive. Committee’s report on the social situation and trends to In order to tackle this threat to safety on our roads, watch in the EU. the Government are introducing a new offence of driving Ministers adopted a Council recommendation for a or being in charge of a motor vehicle with a specified youth guarantee. The UK stressed the importance of controlled drug in the body. The new offence is included greater member state flexibility especially on the four-month in the Crime and Courts Bill, currently before Parliament. time limit, and put in a parliamentary reserve on the It will enable more effective law enforcement and help recommendation. to keep our roads safe. The Commission presented its social investment package, Last spring, the Department commissioned a panel which would pave the way for a stronger social dimension of medical and scientific experts to provide technical of the EMU and the presidency provided further advice on drugs to potentially be covered by the new information on the forthcoming tripartite social summit. offence. The panel has concluded its work and today I Under any other business the presidency updated the have published their report, “Driving Under the Influence Council on progress under legislative dossiers, the of Drugs”. I would like to thank Dr Kim Wolff and the Employment Committee and Social Protection Committee panel for the significant work undertaken in analysing a Chairs outlined their work programmes for 2013, and vast amount of research in this area and for making the Employment Committee updated the Council on their recommendations. ongoing work with the social partners on wage The Government will carefully consider the panel’s developments. Finally the Commission updated Ministers recommendations. In doing so, we are clear that the on the transitional arrangements regarding free movement design of the new offence must send the strongest of workers of Bulgarian and Romanian nationals and possible message that you cannot take any amount of reported on the working time directive social partner illegal drugs and drive. negotiations.
7P Petitions7 MARCH 2013 Petitions 8P Petition Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: The Department for Transport is supporting Nexus Thursday 7 March 2013 in delivering an 11 year programme of works to renew and improve the Tyne and Wear Metro. This work is OBSERVATIONS being funded with up to £350 million of grant from DFT and includes refurbishment of the Metrocar fleet, modernisation of 60 stations, introduction of new “smart” TRANSPORT ticketing machines, barriers and technologies, and a Extension of the Tyne and Wear Metro to Washington new communications system. Nexus is also overhauling and maintain structures such as bridges and tunnels, The Petition of residents of Washington and Sunderland track and overhead power lines, as well as modernising West constituency and the surrounding areas, other infrastructure and technology. Declares that there are inadequate public transport links for residents in Washington to access the rest of Further improvement and expansion of the Tyne the Tyne and Wear area, increasing reliance on personal and Wear Metro will be considered by Nexus as part of transport and reducing employment and economic its planning for the next phase of work, for the period opportunities for the town and its residents. after 2022. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of I understand that an extension to Washington is one Commons urges the Secretary of State for Transport to area which may be looked at as part of this. Nexus has seriously explore the feasibility of extending the Tyne begun planning for this. It will include a comprehensive and Wear Metro to the town of Washington utilising analysis of factors including network integration with the old Leamside railway line. land use and other modes, future technologies and And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by funding. The initial work programme to develop an Mrs Sharon Hodgson, Official Report, 4 March 2013; outline business case will take about two years and be Vol. 559, c. 791 .] subject to local support and development costs being [P001160] met.
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The Solicitor-General: The regional divisions of the Written Answers to Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) do not produce accounts. However, the central finance team compiles national Questions management accounts each month and publishes a monthly financial management report for all individual areas, casework divisions and headquarters directorates. Thursday 7 March 2013 Local managers use these reports to manage budgets and expenditure and as a basis to investigate variances. Neither the CPS’s internal audit team nor the National HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Audit Office (NAO) specifically audit the monthly management accounts. House of Commons Chamber The CPS has a comprehensive system of prescribed Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the hon. Member for financial checks and controls in place, which include the Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing requirement for managers to perform regular, proportionate, the House of Commons Commission, what assessment management checks on financial transactions. The controls has been made of the loop system for hearing aid users and processes are subject to annual NAO audit and in the Chamber. [146515] periodic internal audit agreed with the Audit and Risk Committee chaired by an independent non-executive John Thurso: The loop system for hearing aid users in board member. These controls are supported by relevant the House of Commons Chamber is subject to quarterly and up-to-date guidance detailing the CPS accounting maintenance checks and an annual performance test, procedures, controls and systems, which is available on when output readings are taken around the Chamber. the CPS intranet. The system is working correctly and it meets the standards CPS internal audit carries out routine checks to that were in place at the time of its installation in 1992. assure financial regularity and propriety at a national Nevertheless, the House authorities recognise that the level, and a sample of payments is reviewed every year performance of the system is not uniform throughout to confirm key controls are in place and operating as the Chamber. The Parliamentary Estates Directorate intended. will shortly conduct a feasibility study as the first step in CPS transactions are also subject to the usual NAO finding a better system. The Director of Accommodation annual review as part of the certification process for the and Logistics Services would be happy to discuss the statutory accounts. hon. Member’s concerns. Crown Prosecution Service: West Midlands
ATTORNEY-GENERAL Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how Contempt of Court: Social Networking many taxi journeys were billed to the Crown Prosecution Service West Midlands in the last four Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General years; and how regularly such claims were audited. what assessment he has made of laws on contempt of [146276] court and their ability to address the challenges posed by social media. [146274] The Solicitor-General: It is not possible to separately identify the number of taxi journeys billed to the Crown The Attorney-General: The legal framework applicable Prosecution Service West Midlands. To provide this to the internet is fundamentally the same as that which information would involve checking very large numbers applies elsewhere. A contempt published via social media of paper claim forms and would incur disproportionate remains a contempt. This was demonstrated in the case costs. of Joanna Fraill a juror who, via the medium of the The CPS has a comprehensive system of prescribed social media site, Facebook, and in contravention of financial checks and controls in place, which include the section 8 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981, disclosed requirement for managers to perform regular, proportionate, details of the jury’s deliberations. Ms Fraill subsequently management checks on financial transactions. The controls admitted the contempt and was imprisoned by the and processes are subject to annual NAO audit and Divisional Court. periodic internal audit agreed with the Audit and Risk The Law Commission is currently undertaking a Committee chaired by an independent non-executive review of the law of contempt. In November the board member. These controls are supported by relevant Commission published a consultation paper outlining and up-to-date guidance detailing the CPS’ accounting their findings and proposals for reform. Specifically procedures, controls and systems, which is available on considered within the consultation was the issue of the CPS intranet. contempt and social media. The Commission’s consultation CPS internal audit carries out routine checks to has now closed and we await with interest their final assure financial regularity and propriety at a national conclusions and recommendations. level, and a sample of payments is reviewed every year Crown Prosecution Service to confirm key controls are in place and operating as intended. Over the past four years, these payment samples Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how have tested claims for travel (including taxis) from witnesses. frequently the accounts of the Crown Prosecution CPS transactions are also subject to the usual NAO Service’s regional divisions are audited (a) internally annual review as part of the certification process for the and (b) externally. [146270] statutory accounts. 1109W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1110W
Serious Fraud Office: Legal Costs Mr Simon Burns: Under devolution, the Mayor is responsible for transport in London and for deciding Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how to spend Transport for London’s budget, including what hourly rate the Serious Fraud Office is being on projects such as Crossrail. charged for the services of Slaughter and May to However, I have no doubt that the Secretary of State defend the Tchenguiz damages claim; and what for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for estimate he has made of the comparative cost of Derbyshire Dales (Mr McLoughlin) would be happy to Treasury solicitors. [146273] discuss any relevant transport issues that the new owners of Stansted airport might raise when they next meet. The Attorney-General: The Tchenguiz brothers’ damages claim is being heard by a Commercial Court judge. The Croydon Tramlink Serious Fraud Office decided that it should reconfigure its legal team to provide the most appropriate expertise Steve Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for necessary to defend this claim, which is currently put at Transport what representations he has received from approximately £300 million. This has included instructing the Mayor of London on funding for an extension of solicitors and counsel with specialist commercial law the Croydon tram to Crystal Palace since May 2012; practices, and the SFO appointed Slaughter and May and if he will make a statement. [146751] after a short procurement exercise on the basis that they offered best value. Treasury Solicitors, who have a particular Stephen Hammond: Any decision to extend the Croydon expertise in handling government litigation, continue to tramlink to Crystal Palace would be for the Mayor and be instructed. Transport for London, who would also need to ensure The SFO are being charged the rates recently agreed funding was in place for such a scheme. with Slaughter and May when it was admitted to the Since May 2012, the Mayor has made no representations Government’s panel of external providers of legal to the Secretary of State regarding the Croydon tramlink. services following a competitive procurement exercise. The rates themselves are commercially confidential. At Driving Under Influence: Drugs the conclusion of the case, the SFO will put into the public domain the amount it will have spent on it, Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for including on legal fees. Transport (1) what assessment he has made of the potential effect of legislative proposals on drug driving Witnesses on the ability of patients taking long-term prescription medication to manage chronic pain to drive on a Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General regular basis; and if he will make a statement; [142302] what proportion of witness travel expenses charged to (2) what assessment his Department has made of the the Crown Prosecution Service in each of the last four statutory defence included in proposed drug driving years was spent on taxis. [146272] legislation relating to drivers who have taken medicines containing specified controlled drugs in accordance The Solicitor-General: It is not possible to separately with medical advice; and if he will make a statement. identify the proportion of witness travel expenses spent [142275] on taxi journeys for witnesses from centrally held records. To provide this information would involve checking Stephen Hammond: I refer the hon. Member to the very large numbers of paper claim forms and would written ministerial statement I made on drug driving on incur disproportionate costs. 7 March 2013.
Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for many taxi journeys for witnesses were billed to the Transport with reference to clause 37 of the Crime and Crown Prosecution Service in each region in each year Courts Bill, (1) when he expects to receive the report of since 2010. [146275] the advisory panel of experts on the (a) level and (b) type of drug required to be in the bloodstream, The Solicitor-General: It is not possible to separately [142877] identify the number of taxi journeys for witnesses from (2) when he expects to receive the report on the centrally held records. To provide this information would advisory panel of experts regarding the (a) level of involve checking very large numbers of paper claim and (b) type of drug in blood in relation to the forms and would incur disproportionate costs. proposal in clause 37 of the Crime and Courts Bill. [143224]
Stephen Hammond: I refer the right hon. Member to TRANSPORT the written ministerial statement I made on drug driving on 7 March 2013. Crossrail Line: Stansted Airport Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what meetings (a) he, (b) his Ministers and Transport pursuant to the answer of 28 February 2013, (c) officials of his Department have had with other Official Report, column 460, on Stansted airport, if he Departments to discuss the effect of proposed drug intends to discuss with the new owners of Stansted driving legislation on patients taking prescribed airport the extension of Crossrail to Stansted. [146627] medication to manage chronic pain. [144018] 1111W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1112W
Stephen Hammond: Ministers and officials regularly The carbon footprint for Phase Two will be included meet with the Home Office, Ministry of Justice and in its Appraisal of Sustainability which will form part Department of Health to discuss the effect of proposed of the consultation on the Phase Two preferred route drug driving legislation on patients taking medication. planned for later this year. This issue was also recently discussed at the Inter Ministerial Group on Drugs on 10 January 2013, which comprises Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for all the key Government Departments responsible for Transport what estimate he has made of the potential implementing the drug strategy. reductions in carbon emissions from (a) non-high speed trains, (b) domestic air travel and (c) cars as a result of High Speed 2. [146481] Great Western Railway Line Mr Simon Burns: Appendix 2 of the 2011 HS2 Appraisal Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for of Sustainability (AOS) contains initial estimates of the Transport what recent conversations he has had with effect of HS2 on carbon emissions from non-high speed (a) the West of England Partnership, (b) Passenger trains, domestic air travel and cars as a result of HS2. Focus, (c) local authorities in the south west and (d) The AOS is available at other stakeholders on the Great Western franchise www.nationalarchives.gov.uk concession. [146691] For phase two, the results of the most up to date carbon assessment are due to be published in the Appraisal Mr Simon Burns: Since 31 January 2013, departmental of Sustainability of Phase Two later this year. officials have spoken to all local authorities served by the franchise. Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for They have since met with Wiltshire county council to Transport what his most recent estimate is of the (a) discuss the TransWilts Rail project, and with West of capital and (b) running costs of (i) High Speed 2 Phase England Partnership to discuss the Bristol Metro project. 1 and (ii) High Speed 2 Phase 2 in respect of (A) rolling stock, (B) track, signalling and other infrastructure and A meeting is planned with councils and passenger (C) other costs. [146754] groups in West Berkshire and Wiltshire to discuss electrification. We will be meeting authorities again Mr Simon Burns: In answer to his question about the after the announcement on the franchise programme latest estimate of capital construction costs of HS2, I has been made in the spring. refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 1 February 2013, Official Report, columns 1006-07W, to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs High Speed 2 Railway Line Gillan). On operational costs of the line, including rolling David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for stock, the latest information is provided in the appraisal Transport what steps his Department is taking to seek spreadsheets used for the August 2012 update of the to ensure that High Speed 2 will be constructed using HS2 Economic Case. These are available from the HS2 British materials and British workers. [146459] Ltd website: http://www.hs2.org.uk/news-resources/publications/economic- Mr Simon Burns: The Government’s National documents Infrastructure Plan makes clear the importance of a The Economic Case will continue to be updated as predictable and transparent pipeline of infrastructure development of the project progresses. projects, which helps British companies gear up for and respond to opportunities. HS2 forms a key element of Roads: Snow and Ice that long-term pipeline. As the HS2 project moves forward, the Government Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for will do all it can to ensure that companies with a British Transport whether salt has been imported from (a) presence are well placed to compete for future contracts. Morocco and (b) Western Sahara for use in de-icing roads. [146285] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the total Norman Baker: The Government purchased and carbon emissions that will result from the construction imported road salt in late 2010 for a strategic salt of High Speed 2. [146480] stockpile from a number of overseas countries. None of this road salt was imported from either (a) Morocco, or Mr Simon Burns: Early work in the 2011 Appraisal of (b) Western Sahara. Sustainability for Phase One of HS2 estimated that the The Highways Agency is responsible for de-icing carbon generated from construction is within a range roads on the motorway and strategic road network in between 0.29 and 2.12 MtCO2e (million metric tons of England. The agency does not purchase its salt directly carbon dioxide equivalent). This estimate is based on for operational use as this is the responsibility of its the carbon intensity of materials and the wide range contracted service providers, as part of their routine reflects the uncertainty about factors such as construction requirement to deliver winter service. Consequently the methods at an early stage in a project’s development. A Highways Agency does not keep records on where its further assessment is being undertaken and will be service providers have purchased salt from and cannot made available in spring 2013 as part of the draft therefore confirm if any salt from Morocco and Western Environmental Statement. Sahara has been purchased. 1113W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1114W
Local Highway Authorities are responsible for de-icing WORK AND PENSIONS local roads and they are also responsible for procuring their own salt supplies. On this basis the Department Asbestos for Transport does not keep a central record of where the salt they have purchased is from. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to reduce Sentencing the health risks caused by asbestos. [146746] Mr Hoban: Government policy on reducing health Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for risks from asbestos is based on preventing exposure to Transport if he will publish an estimate of the number asbestos or, where this cannot be easily achieved, by of people who will serve (a) community sentences and reducing exposure to levels that are as low as reasonably (b) custodial sentences under clause 37 of the Crime practicable. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) is and Courts Bill in the event of that Bill receiving Royal responsible for implementing this policy through the Assent. [142876] Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012 (CAR 2012). Preventing exposure to asbestos at work is, and will Stephen Hammond: In undertaking the impact assessment continue to be, a priority for HSE. The majority of for the new offence of drug driving we estimate that work involving removal of asbestos can only be carried each year approximately (a) 1,694 people will receive a out by contractors licensed by HSE. community order sentence and (b) 279 people will serve a custodial sentence once the provisions are in In addition, when visiting employers as part of any force. relevant intervention, HSE inspectors actively explore compliance with CAR 2012 with non-domestic building owners and occupiers, who have a duty to manage risks from any asbestos in their premises. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS HSE also works closely with stakeholders and partners to raise awareness of the dangers of asbestos and encourage trades people to access appropriate training. Pilgrimage of Prayer: Canterbury HSE is currently carrying out research to inform the development of a campaign to ensure that at-risk workers 9. Mr Nuttall: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, are aware of the dangers posed by asbestos and understand representing the Church Commissioners, what reports how they can protect themselves. This research will help the Church Commissioners have received of the with the creation of plans for campaign activity to be Archbishop of Canterbury’s plan for a pilgrimage of delivered in 2013-14, which will seek to change the prayer around the province of Canterbury. [146573] behaviour of trades people who may be at risk. Sir Tony Baldry: Prior to the formal commencement Electronic Government of his public ministry and enthronement in Canterbury Cathedral on 21 March 2013, Archbishop Justin intends Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for to tour parts of the Province of Canterbury to meet its Work and Pensions whether use of Universal Job people and visit its diverse communities. Match is intended to be compulsory for those in receipt From 14 March to 19 March he will visit five cities of jobseeker’s allowance. [145972] and six cathedrals. Everyone is welcome to join the journey in prayer at any point during his pilgrimage. Mr Hoban: Universal Jobmatch is a valuable tool for helping jobseekers find work so we expect that the Women Bishops majority of claimants who are genuinely looking for work will want to willingly use the service themselves. Where this is not the case and where appropriate we 10. Diana Johnson: To ask the hon. Member for may require some jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, to create a profile and public CV in Universal Jobmatch. what assessment the Church Commissioners have made In addition to this, JSA claimants must do all that can of the proposals contained in the General Synod be reasonably expected of them to find work and must document ″Women in the episcopate: a new way apply for any jobs that an adviser deems suitable. Universal forward″. [146574] Jobmatch will provide access to a wide range of vacancies, so using the service will be an important part of actively Sir Tony Baldry: As I am sure the hon. Lady is aware seeking work. there have been a few developments since I last updated the House. If after the Jobcentre Plus adviser has explained the benefits of the service to them and they still refuse to The initial facilitated discussions have been completed use Universal Jobmatch, the adviser may then consider and the consultation stage on a new document has just whether it is reasonable to issue a Jobseeker’s Direction closed. to mandate them to register on Universal Jobmatch. The working group met earlier this week to consider Before issuing a Jobseeker’s Direction the adviser will the 376 submissions which have been received and take into account their circumstances, including meets again later this month. whether they have access to the internet. Jobseeker’s The intention as I have mentioned to the House Directions require jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants before is to have the House of Bishops give consideration to take specific actions which will help them to find to the results from the wording group when they next work, and failure to do so without good reason may meet in May. result in a benefit sanction being applied. 1115W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1116W
Employers’ Liability Communities and Local Government (DCLG) suggest that there are around 1,496,000 households with one or Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for more bedrooms above the bedroom standard in the Work and Pensions what progress his Department has social rented sector in England. The same data suggests made in implementing the proposals in the that there could be at least 1,881,000 additional bedrooms Government’s response to the consultation on above the notional number needed according to the Accessing compensation — Supporting people who bedroom standard definition in the social rented sector need to trace Employers’ Liability Insurance, published in England. in July 2012. [146777] Jobseeker’s Allowance Mr Hoban: The insurance industry has already set up an Employers Liability Tracing Office (ELTO) that Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work maintains a comprehensive electronic database of all and Pensions what guidance his Department has issued new and renewed employer liability (EL) policies, old to Jobcentre Plus advisers about clients on jobseeker’s EL policies that have a new claim made against them, allowance who are also elected councillors. [146724] and all successful traces. To date more than 99% of the active EL insurance market has joined ELTO. Mr Hoban: There is no specific guidance issued to We are currently working up the details for a scheme Jobcentre advisers about claimants who are also elected where we propose to make payments to people diagnosed councillors. However, guidance is available for Department from 25 July 2012 with diffuse mesothelioma, as a result for Work and Pensions staff who process jobseeker’s of their negligent exposure to asbestos at work and who allowance (JSA) payments to claimants who are also are unable to trace their liable employer or their employer’s elected councillors. This guidance is reviewed annually insurance policy to claim against. to ensure it remains accurate. Guidance is also available These proposals require primary legislation and we for Department for Work and Pensions Decision Makers. hope to introduce a Bill as soon as parliamentary time Claimants are not considered to be in remunerative allows. work for the time spent undertaking their duties as a councillor. They are still expected to comply with JSA Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing conditionality, including being available for and actively seeking work of at least 40 hours a week. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has made Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for of the projected annual savings to the public purse as a Work and Pensions how many new applicants for result of the reduction in housing benefit payments due jobseeker’s allowance have been restricted to online to the operation of the under-occupancy penalty. application for that allowance in each month since June [146784] 2012. [146753]
Steve Webb: We estimate that the removal of the Mr Hoban: While the Department’s online service for spare room subsidy will save around £500 million per jobseekers allowance encourages everyone who can use year in housing benefit expenditure. our digital services independently to do so, people who Estimates of the savings are available in the Impact are unable to use our online application service have a Assessment. telephony channel available to make their claim, therefore http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under- no restriction is applied. occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf Pension Funds Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what estimate his Department has Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work made of the number of bedrooms in the social rented and Pensions what steps he is taking to stop pension sector considered to be spare; [146785] fund liabilities preventing reorganisations or mergers of (2) what estimate his Department has made of the charities; and if he will make a statement. [146812] number of under-occupied local authority or social rented properties. [146786] Steve Webb: I introduced regulations last year to provide additional easements in relation to pension Steve Webb: The Department estimates that there are fund liabilities for employers, including charities, that around 660,000 working age housing benefit claimants are restructuring or merging. These allow for the pension in social rented accommodation who will be affected by liabilities of a departing employer to be apportioned to the removal of the spare room subsidy and that there another employer remaining in the scheme, removing are around 820,000 spare bedrooms among this affected the need for payment of the employer debt. group. In relation to pension liabilities, charities have the Estimates of the number of local authority and housing same responsibilities as other employers. Where they association claimants affected by the removal of the have promised benefits to pension scheme members, spare room subsidy are available in the Impact Assessment: they are required to set aside sufficient funds to honour http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under- those promises. occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf I am aware of concerns about the impact of pension Information on under-occupation for the social rented liabilities on the charitable sector. DWP and Cabinet sector as a whole is not readily available from this Office officials are looking at the issues in discussion Department’s data. Estimates from the Department for with sector representatives. 1117W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1118W
Pensions Steve Webb: Within the EEA, social security arrangements remain the responsibility of individual Sir Richard Shepherd: To ask the Secretary of State member states. All current EEA countries operate pension for Work and Pensions (1) how many citizens of EU schemes based on contributory or residency based member states other than the UK and Ireland receive qualification conditions. There is no single EU pension system. The proposed single-tier pension will be compatible pensions in the UK; [146122] with the pensions systems which operate across the (2) how many citizens of each EU member state EEA. receive pensions in the UK; [146123] (3) how many UK citizens receive their pension in EU member states other than the UK and Ireland; State Retirement Pensions [146124] (4) if he will make a comparative assessment of the Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for number of non-national EU citizens receiving their Work and Pensions if he will make it his policy that pension in the UK and the numbers of non-nationals proportionate state pension payments can be awarded receiving pensions in other EU member states. [146125] to pensioners reaching retirement age on a day other than their designated payment date as assigned by their Steve Webb: Statistics on the nationality (or citizenship) national insurance number in order to ensure that of state pension recipients is not available. The award of newly-retired pensioners are not penalised. [142306] UK state pension is normally made on the basis of contributions that have been paid by or credited to the Steve Webb: Payment of state pension starts from the individual. first full benefit week that follows the date a person reaches state pension age. State pension is paid in full Sir Richard Shepherd: To ask the Secretary of State weeks and this means that for most people there will be for Work and Pensions if he will make a comparative a gap between their birthday (when they reach pension assessment of the effect of retirement age regulations in age) and the day they receive their first payment of different EU member states on the amount pensioners pension. The gap could be anything between one and receive. [146126] six days, depending on the person’s birthday and their benefit payday. Steve Webb: The EU social security coordination If a person’s birthday happens to fall on the same day rules (Regulation (EC) No. 883/04) make provision for of the week as the first day of their benefit week, there any person who is entitled to pensions from different is no gap between that birthday and the first day for member states of the EU, to make a claim in accordance which payment is due. For most other people, there will with the pension ages set by each member state pension be. However, because we make pension payments in system. complete weeks, there are no part-week payments at the end of a claim either, when a full week’s benefit is also Therefore a person can claim their different pensions paid and thus the system balances itself out. at different times. The pension they receive from each member state will only reflect the insurance they have There are administrative costs associated with making had in that member state. Each state will therefore pay a part-week payments and it is important that we continue proportion of the total pension, based on the insurance to deliver the Department’s service as cost effectively as paid, and at the pension age in that state. Thus, a person possible. If we made part-week payments at the who had contributed for different periods in three member commencement of a claim then logically we should seek states could receive 30% of their pension from one state to recover any days’ overpayment at the end and this at the age of 65; 40% from another at the age of 66; and would be at a cost to the Department, as well as causing 30% from the third state at the age of 67. distress to families.
Sir Richard Shepherd: To ask the Secretary of State State Retirement Pensions: Females for Work and Pensions what the cost is of (a) administering the inter-country pension calculation and (b) preparation of the P1 document for the UK. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for [146127] Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the effect of the Government’s white paper on the Steve Webb: To provide an accurate figure on inter- single tier pension for women who were born between country pension calculations would involve disproportionate 6 April 1952 and 6 July 1953. [146293] cost, as inter-country (or pro-rata) costs are within the administrative costs allocated to the Pensions Service Steve Webb: The single-tier pension will be implemented and is not separately available. in April 2017 at the earliest. Only individuals who reach their state pension age after implementation will be On question (b) at present International Pension eligible for a single-tier pension. Therefore, all men and Centre do not use P1 forms, so no data are available women who reach state pension age before the regarding preparation costs. implementation of single tier, including women born between 6 April 1952 and 5 July 1953, will receive a Sir Richard Shepherd: To ask the Secretary of State state pension in line with existing rules. The Government for Work and Pensions what effects the proposed single will publish an analysis of the state pension outcomes tier pension will have on the EU pension system. of the cohort of women born between 6 April 1952 and [146128] 5 July 1953 shortly. 1119W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1120W
Universal Credit Mr Hoban: The Department does not specify what adaptations Work programme providers must make for Mark Reckless: To ask the Secretary of State for participants who have different impairments or disabilities. Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to reform The Work programme is designed to give providers the the provision of exempt accommodation for the flexibility to design personalised approaches to help purposes of universal credit. [142874] each individual participant back to work. Work programme providers are expected to use their Steve Webb: Our July 2011 consultation paper, Housing skills, knowledge and expertise to achieve positive outcomes Benefit Reform—Supported Housing (Cm 8152), set for all their participants. If providers cannot deliver all out the reasons and objectives for reforming housing the support required in-house, we expect them to engage benefit for those living in what is defined in legislation with appropriate specialist organisations. as “exempt accommodation”. The Secretary of State Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work announced at the Work and Pensions Select Committee and Pensions when the Work Programme referrals and hearing on 17 September last year his intention that attachments data will be published; and when help with housing costs for those living in supported outcomes figures will next be released. [146748] exempt accommodation would be provided outside universal credit. Mr Hoban: From November 2012 the next release of official statistics on work programme referrals and John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for attachments has changed and will now align with the Work and Pensions what recent discussions he has had release of official statistics on job outcomes. This change with charities regarding online applications for was announced alongside the first release of job outcome universal credit. [145201] statistics on 27 November 2012 when users were informed that future releases of referrals, attachments and outcomes Mr Hoban: We are in continuing discussions with a would be aligned, initially on a six monthly basis, and wide range of charities and other organisations about the scope and need to produce more frequent statistics online applications for universal credit. would be reviewed. The Universal Credit Local Support Services Framework, The next release of work programme statistics will be produced collaboratively between DWP and local in May 2013. The future release frequency is under authorities, sets out the principles for providing support review, and we aim to release complete end of year through a network of local services, including support figures (to the end of March 2013) sooner than November for those who need help with making online applications, 2013. and invites views from charities and other organisations. When a final date has been decided it will be announced on the ONS release calendar found via this link: Work Programme http://www.statistics.gov.uk/hub/release-calendar/index.html and the work programme landing page: Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Work http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wp and Pensions (1) what proportion of people placed in The provisional release date for referral and attachment work under the Work programme qualify for tax official statistics of February to March 2013 on the credits; [146129] ONS release calendar has been updated to reflect this (2) what proportion of placements under the Work change. programme are in jobs paying less than the living wage; [146130] (3) what proportion of placements under the Work COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT programme are in jobs of 30 hours per week or less; Council Tax [146131] (4) what proportion of placements under the Work John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for programme are in jobs paying the minimum wage; Communities and Local Government whether it is [146132] possible for a local authority to apply for a central (5) what proportion of placements under the Work Government grant which facilitates the non-payment programme are in jobs of 20 hours per week or less. of council tax. [146653] [146133] Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities and Local Government announced on 16 October 2012 Mr Hoban: The Work programme is not a work additional funding for one year to support local authorities placement scheme. Work programme providers offer a in developing well-designed council tax support schemes range of support to help participants into jobs and to that protect the most vulnerable and maintain positive sustain employment. incentives to work. The information requested therefore is not available. The transitional grant will be payable in April 2013 to those billing authorities who confirmed that their scheme Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for complied with three criteria, namely: those currently on Work and Pensions what adaptations contract 100% support should be required to pay no more than providers to the Work programme give for (a) the 8.5% of their liability; the taper rate—the rate at which visually impaired, (b) the hearing impaired, (c) those support is withdrawn when people enter work—would with physical disability and (d) those with mental not increase above 25%; and there would be no sharp health disability. [146677] reduction in support for those entering work. 1121W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1122W
Birmingham city council did not claim the grant. ’earmarked’ reserves do not actually have a proper purpose. Make They would have received £2,129,441 if they had agreed creative use of reserves to address short-term costs, such as a local scheme that met its criteria. restructuring or investing now to realise savings in the longer-term (e.g. ’invest to save’ projects). For example, West Lindsey District Council is considering investing £1 million from its reserves to John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for support growth in three market towns in its area.” Communities and Local Government what (a) guidance he has issued to and (b) discussions he has had with local authorities on reversing a decision to charge council tax to people receiving jobseeker’s ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE allowance. [146654] Electricity Brandon Lewis: Under the new system of local council tax support, a billing authority should review its local Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State support scheme each year. for Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to assess the success of his Department’s electricity Fire Services market reform. [145515] Mr Hayes: Clause 50 of the Energy Bill commits the Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the Communities and Local Government whether it is his right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey) intention that fire authorities will be allowed to to review electricity market reform (EMR) five years mutualise their services without the independently after Royal Assent, and to report the conclusions to verifiable support of a clear majority of their frontline Parliament. workforce. [146368] The Department has also committed to report annually on progress against the EMR Delivery Plan. We are Brandon Lewis: As outlined in my answer of 5 March currently considering a number of indicators and data 2013, Official Report, column 931W, at this stage, the sources that could be used to report progress against Government is working with Cleveland fire authority to EMR objectives, and will provide more detail on our support their bid for a local, employee-led mutual. plans for annual updates in the first Delivery Plan later Employees at Cleveland fire brigade have already shown this year. their entrepreneurial drive by setting up a social enterprise which provides fire prevention services to businesses Energy: Billing and uses the profits to fund fire prevention work in the community. More information can be found at: Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy www.gov.uk/government/news/95-000-boost-for-cleveland- and Climate Change whether he plans to bring forward fire-service-s-bid-to-mutualise amendments to the Energy Bill to cap the costs paid by Public service mutuals are organisations with a high customers for the Energy Company Obligation. degree of employee control, but it will be for each local [146675] authority and fledgling mutual to determine how best to engage with the relevant work force. I note these Gregory Barker: The Energy Company Obligation issues were discussed in the recent publication by the (ECO) is a requirement on major energy suppliers to Co-operative party (“Towards co-operative councils: meet certain energy efficiency targets. Whether and how empowering people to change their lives”, February they pass the costs of achieving those targets onto 2013), which was endorsed by the Leader of the Opposition. customers is a matter for them. The Government has no plans to introduce amendments to the Energy Bill to Further information on employee engagement can cap the costs. also be found on the Mutuals Information Service: http://mutuals.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/ Fuel Cells
Local Government Finance Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the economic, scientific and carbon abatement Communities and Local Government what guidance he potential of direct carbon fuel cell technology. [146651] gives local authorities in England and Wales on the Gregory Barker: The Department has not carried out reasonable level of reserves held by them. [146415] an assessment of direct carbon fuel cell technology. We Brandon Lewis [holding answer 5 March 2013]: There do however continue to monitor developments of a is no prescriptive national guidance that specifies a wide range of emerging technologies. minimum or maximum level of reserves. Rather, councils Fuel Poverty: Rural Areas should determine the optimal level as part of their wider local financial planning. Any guidance for local Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy authorities in Wales on this issue is a matter for the and Climate Change what assessment he has made of Welsh Government. the effect of fuel poverty on rural communities. In December, we published the best practice document, [146346] “50 ways to save”, which recommended: “Utilise £16 billion of reserves creatively: Councils are sitting Gregory Barker: DECC publishes an Annual Report on £4.1 billion of unallocated (non-school) financial reserves and on Fuel Poverty which sets out analysis of the characteristics a further £12.4 billion of earmarked non-school reserves. Many of those in fuel poverty, including those living in rural 1123W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1124W areas. This report also looks at the impact of the drivers Warm Home Discount Scheme of fuel poverty, including changes in prices. The latest report is available online at: Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Energy and Climate Change how many Warm Home attachment_data/file/66016/5270-annual-report-fuel-poverty- Discount Scheme applications he received from stats-2012.pdf vulnerable person claimants who are not automatically The Government is committed to addressing the eligible by the end of (a) October 2012, (b) November needs of rural households, especially those on low 2012, (c) December 2012, (d) January 2013, (e) incomes. Such households can receive support under a February 2013 and (f) March 2013; and how many number of different policies. This includes the warm claimants received payments over the same periods. home discount scheme, which provides rebates on electricity [146940] bills. We also provide energy efficiency help for low Gregory Barker: In 2012-13, year two of the Warm income households through the Energy Company Home Discount, 1.08 million customers received a discount Obligation (ECO). Within the ECO, 15% of the support on their electricity bills automatically by 31 December delivered under the Carbon Saving Communities Obligation 2012 under the Core Group element of the scheme. is ring-fenced for rural areas. These customers were provided the discount as a result of automatic data matching between DWP and the participating energy suppliers. Radioactive Waste Management Committee Customers who were potentially eligible, but could not be matched automatically, were sent a letter by Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy mid-January 2013 asking them to contact the Warm and Climate Change what the reasons were for Home Discount scheme helpline in order to claim. The changing the terms of reference of the Committee on cumulative number of successful claims by the dates Radioactive Waste Management resulting in the end of below were: plenary sessions of that committee being held in (a) 25 October: 9,314 public; and whether individual members of that (b) 29 November: 24,822 committee were consulted over this change in the terms (c) 27 December: 38,669 of references. [146685] (d) 31 January: 66,316 (e) 28 February: 75,138 Mr Hayes: Following the appointment of new members in November 2012, the Committee on Customers who have received a letter asking them to Radioactive Waste Management (CoRWM) has taken contact the helpline have until 13 March to make a the opportunity to review its terms of reference, in claim. All discounts should be credited to customers’ consultation with its sponsors (the Department of Energy electricity bills by 31 March 2013. There have been over and Climate Change and the devolved Administrations). 13,300 callers to the helpline found to be ineligible. This review, now nearing completion, considered whether Claims for the Broader Group element of the scheme plenary meetings open to the public should remain a are made directly to participating energy suppliers. Ofgem feature of the Committee’s stakeholder engagement will publish an annual report on year two of the Warm activities. CoRWM concluded and sponsors agreed that Home Discount, including the number of Broader Group given the very low attendance by members of the public discounts made, in October 2013. in recent years, such meetings no longer offered value for money. CoRWM remains committed to working in an open, DEFENCE transparent and consultative way. In order to inform Afghanistan stakeholders of its work, the Committee will continue to make use of its website and regular e-bulletins and Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for will publish notes of all plenary meetings, bi-lateral Defence what estimate his Department has made of the meetings and open plenary papers. cost of withdrawal of British military forces and The revised terms of reference will be finalised shortly equipment from Afghanistan. [144768] and will be published on the CoRWM website at: Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence is still in the http://corwm.decc.gov.uk/ process of determining what pieces of equipment and materiel should be repatriated from Afghanistan and by what means. We are therefore currently unable to give Tidal Power an accurate estimate for the cost of withdrawal from Afghanistan. Equipment will only be repatriated where Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State to do so represents the best value way to meet an for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he enduring military requirement. We will seek the most has made of the responses of local communities on cost-effective solution to repatriating both military personnel consultation of proposals for tidal energy projects. and equipment, whilst balancing this alongside logistical [146808] and military considerations on the ground. Armed Forces: Dogs Gregory Barker: Where applications have been made for consent for tidal energy devices, we have considered Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for representations from local communities and other interested Defence how many army sniffer dogs have been injured parties before determining those applications. whilst on duty in the last five years. [145845] 1125W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1126W
Mr Francois: Army detection dogs provide an important Armed Forces: Homosexuality and valuable service, working with their handlers, to search for items and substances such as, arms, ammunition, drugs and explosives and can also be trained to track or Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for detect human scent. Detection dogs have played a significant Defence how many openly gay people are currently role in counter-improvised explosive device work during serving in the (a) regular and (b) reserve armed forces. Operations Herrick and Telic, reducing human injuries [142900] and fatalities. Information on the number of detection dogs injured while on duty over the last five years is not held centrally Mr Francois [holding answer 12 February 2013]: The and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Ministry of Defence gathers data on sexual orientation However, since May 2011 we have received five reports on a voluntary basis during phase 1 and 2 training using of military detection dogs being significantly injured in the Recruit Trainee Survey (RTS). It is our intention to the course of their duties. extend monitoring in the future using the Joint Personnel Administration system to enable armed forces personnel Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for to record their sexual orientation, should they wish to Defence how many members of the armed forces have do so. received injuries from dogs whilst in the line of duty in The following tables provide a record of the data the last three years. [145923] collected at all phase 1 and 2 training establishments over the last 12 months for Royal Navy ratings, soldiers, Mr Francois: For the period 1 April 2009 to 31 March and airmen using the RTS. Personnel completing the 2012, the last dates for which data is available, 50 UK confidential survey are, of course, entirely free to classify armed forces personnel are recorded as having received themselves as they wish, and those describing themselves injuries caused by dogs while in the line of duty. as gay will be open, or not, with their sexuality to Within the same period, a further 1,143 UK armed varying degrees. Data are collected in a similar way for forces personnel have been recorded as having received officers using the Officer Cadet Survey; however, sample an injury caused by a dog. The duty status of these size for this cohort is low and not yet sufficiently mature personnel at the time of the incident is unknown. to be considered statistically robust.
Armed forces RTS Phase 1 training Males Females Percentage Number Percentage Number
Heterosexual/straight 96.0 8,770 83.4 736 Gay man 0.7 67 0.6 5 Gay woman/lesbian 0.1 7 8.2 72 Bisexual 0.6 52 5.3 47 Do not know 0.8 73 0.6 5 Prefer not to say 1.8 167 2.0 18
Armed forces RTS Phase 2 training Males Females Percentage Number Percentage Number
Heterosexual/straight 95.5 4,812 80.6 512 Gay man 1.0 48 0.6 4 Gay woman/lesbian 0.2 10 9.6 61 Bisexual 0.6 30 3.9 25 Do not know 0.8 42 0.9 6 Prefer not to say 1.9 98 4.3 27
Armed Forces: Horses The Ministry of Defence policy is to re-home all Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for military working horses at the end of their service life Defence (1) how many military horses have been put wherever practicable. Regrettably, however, there are occasions when military working horses have to be put down in each of the last five years; [145982] down. This action is only ever taken as a last resort, (2) how many horses are maintained by the armed where it is judged unsafe to re-home the animal or for forces. [146037] veterinary reasons. Mr Francois: Military working animals play an important role working alongside our armed forces. Horses are Between the period January 2008 to December 2012 used for ceremonial purposes throughout the year, such the following table shows the number of horses that as Changing the Guard, and at annual events such as have been put down. Trooping the Colour and the State Opening of Parliament. This forms an important part of our national heritage Number and helps to raise the profile of our armed forces. As at 2008 20 1 March 2013, there were 494 military working horses 2009 12 maintained by the armed forces. 1127W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1128W
acquisition of such knowledge, and who have, in either Number case undergone the hazards and rigours imposed by the 2010 18 polar environment. 2011 28 2012 26 Military Bases: USA
Armed Forces: Recruitment Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many Ministry of Defence police are Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for based at the US bases at (a) Menwith Hill, (b) Defence how many visits the armed forces made to (a) Lakenheath, (c) Mildenhall, (d) Molesworth, (e) state secondary schools, (b) independent schools and RAF Fylingdales, (f) Alconbury and (g) Fairford. (c) colleges in (i) Scotland, (ii) Wales, (iii) England and [145823] (iv) Northern Ireland in 2011-12. [145626] Mr Francois: I am withholding the numbers of the Mr Francois: This information is not held in the Ministry of Defence police (MDP) deployed at RAF format requested. A breakdown of visits by geographical Menwith Hill, RAF Lakenheath, RAF Mildenhall, RAF area is being compiled, but will take some time. I will Molesworth, RAF Fylingdales, RAF Alconbury and write to the hon. Member once the information has RAF Fairford for the purpose of safeguarding national been collated. security since it would indicate the strength of the MDP presence at each base and this could potentially prejudice Armed Forces: Retirement their security.
George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Military Police Defence if he will ensure that under the Public Services Pensions Bill Ministry of Defence fire and police Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for service personnel have the same retirement age as that Defence how many Ministry of Defence (MOD) police of other uniformed services. [146004] serve at each MOD establishment. [146658]
Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Francois: I am withholding the numbers of Ministry Defence if he will make it his policy to make the of Defence police (MDP) officers deployed at Ministry retirement age for the Ministry of Defence police the of Defence establishments for the purpose of safeguarding same as other police officers in the uniformed services; national security. and if he will make a statement. [145983] Police: Dogs Mr Francois: Both the Ministry of Defence police and fire service personnel are long-standing participants Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for in the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme and are Defence how many police dogs have died of reasons currently subject to the terms of that scheme including other than of natural causes in each of the last 10 retirement age. We would see that remaining the case. years. [145947] The Public Service Pensions Bill currently progressing through Parliament will set the legislative framework Mr Francois: The number of police dogs that have for the future of public service pension provision. Once died in each year from 2007 is shown in the following the Bill receives Royal Assent the Ministry of Defence table: will comply with its provisions. Medals Number 2007 20 Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2008 14 pursuant to the answer of 25 February 2013, Official 2009 9 Report, columns 22-6W, on medals, for what reasons 2010 13 polar explorers are now excluded from the award of the 2011 15 Polar Medal; and what assessment he has made of how 2012 26 that practice reflects the criteria set out in the fifth clause of the Royal Warrant of 1998. [145933] Information prior to 2007 is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr Francois: Polar exploration is excluded from the The Department’s policy is to re-home all military award of the Polar Medal only in instances where it working dogs at the end of their service life wherever does not contribute to the research of polar sciences or practicable. Regrettably, however, there are occasions in technical support of the research of polar sciences. In when military working dogs have to be put down. This the era of the satellite polar exploration has become action is only ever taken as a last resort, where it is more widespread with individuals undertaking travels judged unsafe to re-home the animal because of the risk in the Polar regions often without clear research objectives. they pose to the public or for veterinary reasons. This practice reflects the criteria set out in the fifth clause of the Royal Warrant Eligibility which requires Procurement an honoree to have personally conspicuous contributions to the knowledge of polar regions, or to have rendered Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for prolonged service of outstanding quality in support of Defence what proportion of contracts measured by 1129W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1130W value were awarded by his Department to UK-based The Supporting Inclusion Programme, funded by the small and medium-sized enterprises in the last Department of Communities and Local Government 12 months for which figures are available. [146656] and delivered through YouthUnited, also aims to increase the number of young people and adult volunteers engaged Mr Dunne: For financial year 2011-12, around 12% in structured youth activity. It is targeted in 15 priority of all contracts by value were placed with small and areas across England, including five London boroughs. medium-sized enterprises. This equates to around 40% Their programme in Haringey is being run alongside by volume of all new Ministry of Defence (MOD) the YOU.matter programme. contracts placed during that year. No distinction is National level programmes that will impact on cadet made between whether these companies are based in force adult volunteer recruitment in Greater London the UK or overseas. include the Cadet Expansion Project, announced by the The MOD recognises that smaller businesses are an Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister in June important source of innovation and flexibility in meeting 2012. This project aims to create 100 new cadet units in defence and security requirements. We are undertaking English state-funded schools. As part of this programme a range of measures to help SMEs secure more defence the Ministry of Defence and Department for Education business, both directly through contracts with MOD will be working with schools to encourage new adult and indirectly as members of the defence supply chain. volunteers. Also, a targeted recruitment campaign was These measures seek to ensure a level playing field and a launched in late 2012 to increase the number of officers fair chance for small and medium-sized enterprises—neither in the Army Cadet Force. preferential treatment nor discriminatory barriers. UK Polar Medal Assessment Committee Radioactive Materials Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 25 February 2013, Official what (a) life cycle analysis, (b) carbon footprint Report, column 22W, on medals, for what reasons the analysis and (c) environmental impact assessment has UK Polar Medal Assessment Committee does not been made covering countries of origin of any raw follow the practice of other honours nomination nuclear materials procured for use in military nuclear committees in making its membership publicly known; programmes. [146228] and for what reasons this is deemed to be necessary to protect the integrity of the selection process. [145934] Mr Dunne: No such assessments have been made. These materials were last procured when such assessments Mr Francois: The UK Polar Medal Assessment were not general practice in any sector. Committee does not make its membership publicly known in order to protect the integrity of the selection Reserve Forces: Greater London process. This is deemed necessary because the polar community is very small and many of the nominees for the award of the Polar Medal may be known by a Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for committee member. Defence what plans he has to increase participation of adult volunteers in the (a) Combined Cadet Force, (b) If committee membership were disclosed, there is a Air Training Corps, (c) Army Cadet Force and (d) possibility that individual committee members might be Sea Cadets in Greater London. [146286] lobbied by supporters of the nominee to influence the decision of the committee. Mr Francois: Adult volunteers are pivotal to the success of the Ministry of Defence (MOD) sponsored Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence cadet forces. We owe a debt of gratitude to the many how often the UK Polar Medal Assessment Committee thousands of volunteers who do so much for our 140,000 meets; and when it last met. [145935] cadets. Mr Francois: The United Kingdom Polar Medal The community cadet forces (the Sea Cadets, the Assessment Committee meets annually. The last meeting Army Cadet Force and the Air Training Corps) recruit was held on 26 October 2012. high quality individuals as volunteers via a range of sources, including their respective websites. The Combined Veterans: Advisory Services Cadet Force is a partnership between schools and the MOD, and therefore it is ultimately the school’s Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence responsibility to recruit sufficient adult volunteers. what progress has been made on the Veterans’ Cadet forces are taking part in a number of specific Information Service; and if he will assess the effects of volunteer recruitment initiatives within London. These the present cost of voluntary redundancy from the include: armed forces on his Department’s plans to provide a The Structured Activities for YoungPeople Programme, follow-up information service to veterans 12 months a £1.35million YOU.matter initiative by the Mayor of after discharge. [146782] London, designed to increase the number of adult volunteers, young people and new units engaged in Dr Murrison: The Veterans Information Service (VIS) structured youth activity. The community cadet forces is due to be launched in April 2013. However, I am are three of the 10 uniformed organisations benefiting pleased to report that we were able to deliver aspects of from this programme, which is being run on behalf of VIS in December 2012, some four months earlier than the Greater London Authority by the Safer London anticipated. This was largely in recognition of the fact Foundation. that Christmas and new year can be a difficult time for 1131W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1132W vulnerable veterans and it was considered important to Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse offer this additional support to those most likely to need it. VIS letters were despatched via e-mail or post Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to almost 16,000 veterans who had left service between how many people have been prosecuted for selling September 2010 and November 2011. Responses were alcohol to a drunk person in each of the last five years. encouraging, with an 8% increase in Big White Wall activity and 591 visits to the VIS area of the Service [146223] Personnel and Veterans Agency (SPVA) website. Also, around 60 recipients of the VIS letter made contact to Jeremy Wright: The number of defendants proceeded ask for help. SPVA were able to offer help and advice to against at magistrates courts for an offence under the all who made contact. Licensing Offences Act 2003 of the sale of alcohol to a A questionnaire is currently being developed by the person who is drunk, in England and Wales from 2007 Department of Health in line with the recommendation to 2011 (the latest available), can be viewed in the table. made within my 2010 Fighting Fit report. The aim is for Defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for sale of alcohol to a this questionnaire to be made available with the VIS person who is drunk1, England and Wales, 2007-112,3 letter from April 2013. 2007 20084 2009 2010 2011 Provision of the VIS is a Department of Health Proceeded 7178 312 commitment and as such the Department of Health is against funding SPVA to deliver this service. The Ministry of 1 An offence under s.141 of the Licensing Offences Act 2003. 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom Defence has therefore made no assessment of VIS these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When provision against the cost of the voluntary redundancy a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for scheme. which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory Written Questions maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Defence whether the procedure and sign-off process for forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection responding to parliamentary questions in his processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those Department includes review by special advisers. data are used. 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. [146081] Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. Mr Francois: Ministers are responsible and accountable for all answers to parliamentary questions. Special advisers Council Tax: Non-payment may provide advice to Ministers, as outlined in the Code of Conduct for Special Advisers. Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people were (a) taken to court and (b) JUSTICE successfully prosecuted for non-payment of council tax Alcoholic Drinks in each of the last five years. [145932]
Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Grant: Council tax cases are not always listed Justice what estimate he has made of the level of and resulted individually as local councils issue multiple alcohol-related absenteeism in his Department; cases that are heard at a single hearing. HMCTS cannot, whether his Department has an (a) internal alcohol therefore, tell how many people they relate to, or how policy and (b) occupational health strategy; and if he many liability orders were granted. The only way we will publish such documents. [143970] may be able to obtain this data would be to ask each area/court to manually count and check the numbers Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice (Ministry of which would be possible only at disproportionate costs. Justice HQ, National Offender Management Service, Upon the granting of a liability order the local council HM Court and Tribunal Service and the Office of the takes responsibility for the production of those orders. Public Guardian) does not separately record the level of alcohol-related absenteeism in the Department from wider sickness absence reporting. Domestic Violence The Ministry of Justice has policies and strategies for both alcohol and occupational health. These policies Steve Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and strategies ensure that all staff can access the right what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of support when needed. Our occupational health services family justice centres in supporting victims of domestic fulfil its obligation to comply with relevant legislation and family violence; and if he will make a statement. and are designed to: [146750] promote the physical and psychological well-being of our employees prevent or minimise the risk of illness and injury arising from work activity Mrs Grant: The Ministry of Justice is not responsible for the implementation of family justice centres at local manage sickness absence and return to work plans after illness or injury or national level and as such has made no assessment of consider adjustments which enable staff with disabilities, (either those that may have been set up. temporary or permanent) to carry out their duties. The decision to provide a family justice centre (FJC) Copies of our policies and guidance in respect of which co-locates support and advice service for victims alcohol and occupational health will be placed in the of domestic violence is a local matter and will be made Library. with a view to local demand and resources. 1133W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1134W
Legal Aid Scheme The figures exclude costs paid by the court of appeals, Supreme Court, House of Lords and Senior Courts Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Costs Office. for Justice how much legal aid was received by (a) The payments include VAT and disbursements such Birnberg Peirce and Partners, (b) Leigh Day, (c) Bhatt as expenses incurred on cases which although paid by Murphy, (d) Public Interest Lawyers, (e) Imran Khan the LSC directly to the firm, are then paid on to other and Partners, (f) HMA Solicitors and (g) Public Law parties (such as expert witnesses and non-panel advocates). Solicitors in each year from 2008-09 to 2011-12. The figures may change over time, due to changes in [145296] the way that data is recorded and updated, different claiming mechanisms for the various legal aid schemes Jeremy Wright: The requested information is provided as well as the complex nature of the Legal Service in the table. Commission’s management information and IT systems.
£ 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12
(a) Birnberg Peirce and Partners 2,928,386.47 2,753,992.43 1,798,320.71 2,027,737.55 (b) Leigh Day 1,348,631.20 992,333.70 1,182,080.21 1,216,888.66 (c) Bhatt Murphy 643,580.16 803,663.41 117,444.04 462,484.22 (d) Public Interest Lawyers 628,527.75 267,433.88 439,268.02 331,238.85 (e) Imran Khan and Partners 1,891,128.90 1,195,971.50 1,479,041.57 1,337,270.08 (f) HMA Solicitors 6,709.19 144,148.01 70,960.87 174,458.91 (g) Public Law Solicitors 324,568.82 289,620.43 443,249.31 195,376.23 Total 7,771,532.49 6,447,163.36 5,530,364.73 5,745,454.50
The payments include VAT and disbursements such Certain exemptions may not be relied on for more as expenses incurred on cases which although paid by than 30 years after the record was created (and the the LSC directly to the firm, are then paid on to other maximum duration of the majority of these provisions parties (such as expert witnesses and non-panel advocates). will fall to 20 years in parallel with the introduction of Note also that the figures may not be directly comparable the 20 year rule). The exemptions that can be applied to over time, due to changes in the way that data is records older than 30 years at The National Archives recorded and updated, different claiming mechanisms are those at the following sections of the Act: 23 for the various legal aid schemes as well as the complex (information supplied by, or relating to, bodies dealing nature of the LSC’s management information and IT with security matters), 24 (national security), 27(1) and systems. 27(2) (international relations), 29 (economy), 30(2) (investigations), 31 (law enforcement), 34 (Parliamentary National Archives privilege), 37(1) (communications with the Royal Family and Honours), 38 (health and safety), 39 (environmental Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice information), 40 (1) and (2) (personal data), 41 (information pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2013, Official provided in confidence) and 44 (prohibitions on disclosure). Report, column 52W, on national archives, which Closed records held at The National Archives are categories of file are closed to public access and are listed on its online catalogue which is publicly available, more than 30 years old, broken down by exemption so there is no need to commission research into them. type; whether he will commission further research into Information about the number of closed records held the categories of files that are closed to public access; by the security services is not held by the Ministry of and how many files are held by the security services Justice or The National Archives. that are closed to public access and are more than 30 years old. [146721] Offences against Children Mrs Grant: The majority of government records are opened to public access on transfer to The National Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Archives. The Government Department that created Justice what steps he plans to take to ensure that each record is responsible for reviewing its sensitivity victims of paedophiles and child exploitation have and identifying information that should remain closed access to ongoing victim support services; and if he will after transfer to The National Archives, in line with make a statement. [145969] exemptions from the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Records that have been transferred closed to The National Archives can be requested under the Freedom of Mrs Grant: The Government is committed to developing Information Act. On receiving a request for a closed a justice system that provides the highest possible standards record The National Archives will assess the ongoing of protection and support for young victims of crime. sensitivity of the record in consultation with the department Responsibility for the care and support of child victims that transferred it, and decide whether an exemption of rape, sexual assault and sexual exploitation is led by applies or it can be opened to the public. The relevant the Department for Education. The Ministry of Justice exemptions for files transferred closed or re-reviewed is working closely with the Department of Education to since 2005 are listed on each file’s catalogue entry at: deliver their ‘Tackling Child Sexual Exploitation Action www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/Discovery. Plan’ which was published in 2011. 1135W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1136W
Children are one of a number of vulnerable victims The Department of Health have stated that the ability for whom services will be prioritised following the response of people on low incomes to visit patients detained in to last year’s Ministry of Justice public consultation hospital under the Mental Health Act 1983 depends on Getting it Right for Victims and Witnesses. The Ministry the individual circumstances of the case. Under current of Justice is also providing nearly £4 million of funding arrangements, people in receipt of a qualifying benefit this year through its Rape Support Fund for support may be eligible for assistance in the form of a community and counselling services for women and girls over the care grant from the Social Fund. age of 13 years who have suffered recent or historic rape or sexual violence. Probation The Government has opted into EU Directive 2011/ 92/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice on combating the sexual abuse and sexual exploitation if a mechanism will be put in place to allow the transfer of children and child pornography. The directive, which of cases from the private to public sector and vice versa is due to come into force on 18 December 2013, will if the risk is deemed to have escalated or decreased. help to ensure that there is a co-ordinated and consistent [139780] response throughout the European Union in combating child sexual exploitation, which as a result of advances Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice has recently in technology, increasingly goes beyond the limits of published the consultation paper “Transforming national borders. Rehabilitation—a revolution in the way we manage offenders” which sets out proposals for driving down Prisons: Television reoffending by extending rehabilitative provision, opening up service delivery and paying by results. Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for The consultation paper states that we will not take Justice what arrangements he plans to put in place to any risks in protecting the public. We propose that the enable Welsh prisoners in prison in England to access public sector will retain ultimate responsibility for public S4C when prisoners are no longer allowed to subscribe protection and will manage directly those offenders to Sky. [142400] who pose the highest risk of serious harm to the public. We recognise that the level of risk posed by offenders Jeremy Wright: In-cell access to subscription television can change over time. As part of the consultation, we services, such as that provided by British Sky Broadcasting, are looking at the most effective mechanisms for ensuring is not available in public sector prisons. The access that both the contracted providers and the public sector which is available to prisoners in contracted out prisons Probation Service are managing dynamic risk, co-ordinating does not involve individual subscriptions and is currently their approaches, and protecting the public. subject to review. The consultation closed on 22 February 2013 and we In public sector prisons, each eligible prisoner has will set out further details of how we will reform the access to nine pre-determined free-to-view channels way we manage offenders once we have considered in-cell. Governors have the flexibility to change any of responses. the pre-determined channels to other free-to-view channels locally. I understand that S4C is not available as a Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice free-to-view channel in England and is therefore not how many offenders under supervision have mental available to watch in public sector prisons. health issues. [142565]
Prisons: Visits Jeremy Wright: The number of offenders starting court order supervision by the probation service with Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of mental health treatment requirements attached is set State for Justice to what financial support families of out in Table 4.4 of the probation tables published as young people (a) disposed by the courts, or transferred part of Offender Management statistics on the Ministry from prison to a secure psychiatric setting and (b) of Justice website: serving a custodial sentence in a young offender http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/prisons-and-probation/ institution are entitled via the Assisted Prison Visits oms-quarterly Scheme. [146760] The published figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with any large Jeremy Wright: The Assisted Prison Visits Scheme scale recording system, are subject to possible errors does cover families of young people placed in Youth with data entry and processing. Offender Institutions. The scheme entitlements are the same as for visitors and families of adult offenders in Reoffenders: Yorkshire and the Humber HM prisons. An assisted family visits scheme is also provided for Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for sentenced young people in secure training centres and Justice what the reoffending rate in (a) Brigg and secure children’s homes which reimburses the young Goole constituency and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber person’s family for the cost of visiting them once a was in each of the last five years. [143488] week. The Assisted Prison Visits Scheme does not cover a Jeremy Wright: The following table presents the number person transferred to a secure psychiatric setting as they of offenders in Yorkshire and the Humber who were are no longer in prison custody but detained under the released from custody, received a non-custodial conviction provisions of the Mental Health Act 1983. at court, received a caution, reprimand, warning or 1137W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1138W tested positive for opiates or cocaine in each of the services for ministerial travel in each year since years, 2006 to 2010 (the latest calendar year available); 2009-10; and if he will make a statement. [142641] and the proportion that committed a proven reoffence within a one year follow-up period. Mrs Grant: Information on departmental spend is published in the annual written ministerial statement, Cohort details of which can be found within the Libraries of Yorkshire and both Houses: the Humber 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2009/10: Number of 81,714 80,630 74,361 70,908 64,145 offenders in http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/ cohort cmhansrd/cm101028/wmstext/ Proportion of 28.5 28.2 28.7 27.3 28.3 101028m0001.htm#10102827000372 offenders who 2010/11: re-offend (percentage) http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201212/ Note: cmhansrd/cm120116/wmstext/ This number docs not represent all proven offenders. Offenders who were 120116m0001.htm#12011611000194 released from custody or commenced a court order are matched to the Police National Computer database. A certain proportion of these offenders cannot 2010/12: be matched and are, therefore, excluded from the offender cohort, ie the group http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/ of offenders for whom reoffending is measured. cmhansrd/cm121220/wmstext/ In response to a Ministry of Justice consultation on 121220m0001.htm#12122056000216 improvements to reoffending statistics, proven reoffending Details of the costs for 2012-13 will be published in data is only produced at the regional, probation area the normal way later this year. and local authority level and not at constituency level. Ministry of Justice spending on ministerial cars has Proven reoffending is defined as any offence committed fallen by 37% over the past three years. in a one year follow-up period and receiving a court conviction, caution, reprimand or warning in the one The Ministerial Code, published on 21 May 2010, year follow-up. Following this one year period, a further included changes to the circumstances in which Ministers six month waiting period is allowed for cases to progress would be entitled to a car and driver. The number of through the courts. Ministers with allocated cars and drivers would be kept to a minimum, taking into account security and other Staff considerations. Other Ministers would be entitled to use cars from a ministerial car pool as required. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Information relating to expenditure on taxis for how many staff were employed by his Department in ministerial travel for each year since 2009-10 is included each of the last five years; and at what grade or pay in the following table: band such staff were appointed. [142790] 1 April to 31 March each year Cost (£)
Mrs Grant: The number of staff employed, at each 2009-10 12,852 grade, by the Ministry of Justice (Ministry of Justice 2010-11 1,194 HQ, National Offender Management Service, HM Courts 2011-12 954 and Tribunals Service and the Office of the Public Guardian) for each of the last five years is set out in the All Ministers are encouraged to walk or use public following table: transport wherever practicable. Number of staff employed by the Ministry of Justice as at 31 December Grades 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Youth Custody Senior civil 280 274 235 196 196 servants Band A 2,625 2,588 2,388 2,110 2,022 Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Band B 5,757 5,685 5,317 4,994 4,687 Justice what the cost is of each type of place within the [144652] Band C 4,633 4,484 3,881 3,295 3,069 secure youth estate. Band D 13,080 12,735 11,793 11,130 10,046 Band E 40,725 40,498 40,147 38,678 36,812 Jeremy Wright: There are three types of accommodation Band F 13,612 13,048 12,659 11,678 11,066 in the youth secure estate, the average cost of a bed per Fast 59 81 100 107 115 annum for each sector is as follows: Stream A place in a Secure Children’s Home costs an average of Total 80,771 79,393 76,520 72,188 68,013 £212,000 per annum The 2008, 2009 and 2010 headcount figures include A place in a Secure Training Centre costs an average of the Scotland and Wales Offices. The Scotland and Wales £178,000 per annum Offices ceased to be part of the MOJ from April 2011 A place in a Young Offender Institution costs an average of after moving to the Office of the Territories. £65,000 per annum. All prices shown above are to the nearest thousand; Travel they are based upon Youth Justice Board (YJB) budget allocations for 2012-13 and include the cost of education Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice across the estate. They are prices which the YJB and how much his Department spent on (a) the MOJ pay for those services in young people’s secure Government Car Service and (b) other taxi or car custodial facilities. They are not intended to represent 1139W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1140W the total price of providing custody and related services Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the to young people as they exclude other costs associated responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have with custody such as: asked the authority to reply. secure and custodial transport for young people Letter from Glen Watson, dated March 2013: service development programmes such as work force and regime As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I development—eg new restraint system; have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking VAT paid by the YJB (on applicable services). what assessment has been made of employment rates of (a) those with mental health problems, (b) those with learning disabilities, (c) former offenders and (d) the homeless; and what contribution social firms can make to improve them. 146815 CABINET OFFICE Estimates of employment are derived from the Labour Force Blood Survey (LFS). For the period October to December 2012 it was estimated that the employment rate for people aged 16 to 64 reporting a mental health problem was 20 per cent. For those Paul Flynn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet reporting a severe learning difficulty it is estimated to be 33 per Office what assessment he has made of the effect on the cent. The LFS does not collect information on former offenders distribution and availability of blood services in the and the homeless. Please note that the LFS does not sample event of a nuclear weapon being exploded in or near a people living in communal establishments such as hospitals or UK city with a population of more than 500,000. nursing homes. [146224] The total employment rate for the UK is 71.5%. Further information can be found on the ONS website, here Anna Soubry: I have been asked to reply on behalf of http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lms/labour-market-statistics/ the Department of Health. february-2013/statistical-bulletin.html As with any type of major incident, the Department The ONS cannot comment on the contribution of social firms and the national health service have plans in place to be to the improvement of the labour market situation of the specified able to respond effectively to minimise harm to the groups, as this is a matter of policy. United Kingdom population arising from accidental or As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject malicious use of radiological material. to a margin of uncertainty. NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) has robust ICT plans for the loss of any blood centre. In the event of Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the loss of one or more processing centres, the blood Office how many (a) iPads and (b) iPhones have been supply system would be able to run an emergency purchased by his Department since May 2010. [146332] service, with donations for processing and hospital deliveries diverted to an alternative centre. Mr Hurd: This Government is determined to provide There are three potential consequences, which would staff with technology that allows them to do their job impact on blood supply that could result from the type effectively and efficiently. That is why we are working to of scenario outlined; loss of blood processing capacity, reform Government ICT and unwind expensive legacy mass trauma requiring significant use of blood for contracts. Since May 2010 we have made huge savings treatment and the health consequences of irradiation. from ICT. Government saved over £400 million from NHSBT holds stocks to support a mass trauma ICT in the first half of this year, in addition to £354 million incident adequate to meet the anticipated needs of such in 2011-12 and £300 million between June 2010 and an event without affecting other requests for blood and March 2011. This has contributed to the over £12 billion plasma. However, there are also plans to alert donors to savings that this Government has made, which includes the need to collect blood at short notice if rapid slicing out the unnecessary spend we inherited in May replenishment becomes necessary. 2010. These are savings which could easily have been The treatment of radiation poisoning would require initiated prior to May 2010. blood, plasma and platelets. NHSBT obtains platelets As was the case under the previous administration, from platelet-only donors, and also extracts platelets staff can be provided with a smart phone when there is from whole blood donations. In the event of increased an appropriate business need. Besides blackberry devices, demand for platelets at short notice, there is capacity to some 268 iPhones and 18 iPads have been provided as at increase the number of therapeutic doses of platelets 1 March 2013. obtained through existing stocks of whole blood. Older Workers: Kingston Upon Hull NHSBT has a command and control system within its emergency response, which allows the organisation Diana Johnson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet to respond to emergencies. Staff are aware of their Office what estimate he has made of the number of responsibilities in such a scenario and have received people aged over 65 years old in the working training which will allow NHSBT to take rapid decisions population in Hull in each of the last five years. that would support the ongoing operation of the blood [146671] supply chain. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Employment responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Glen Watson, dated March 2013: Office what assessment he has made of employment As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I rates of (a) those with mental health problems, (b) have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking those with learning disabilities, (c) former offenders what recent estimate has been made of the number of people aged and (d) the homeless; and what contribution social over 65 in the working population in Hull in each of the last five firms can make to improve them. [146815] years. (146671) 1141W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1142W
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles labour Public Consultation market statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. However, estimates of working populations for the Mike Weatherley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet requested age band, and geography are not available due to small Office what his policy is on the publication in full of sample sizes. summaries of responses to Government consultations; As an alternative we have provided estimates for the number of whether he intends the publication of these responses, people aged over 65 in the working population in the Local in full, to be made compulsory on all Departments; Enterprise Partnership of Humber, which includes the City of and if he will make a statement. [146554] Kingston Upon Hull Unitary Authority, for the latest period and the previous four years. The working population has been defined Mr Letwin: Government policy on consultations is as those people who are employed or currently seeking work outlined in the Consultation Principles. These do not according to their responses to interviews held during the 12 month currently consider how departments should publish period October 2011 to September 2012, the latest available consultation responses. We are conducting a review of period, and the 12 month period ending in September for 2008 to 2011 from the APS. the operation of the Consultation Principles this summer. As part of the review, we will consider whether the National and local area estimates for many labour market guidance should cover the publication of responses. statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at Departments report the findings and responses to consultations as a matter of course and decide how best http://www.nomisweb.co.uk to do this in each individual case. Number of people aged 65 and over in the working population1 in Humber Local Enterprise Partnership Third Sector 12 months ending: Thousand
September 2008 8 Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet September 2009 8 Office what role he envisages for social firms in the Big September 2010 10 Society. [146816] September 2011 10 September 20122 ***10 Mr Hurd: Social firms can help create a bigger society 1 The working population has been defined as those people who are in various ways. employed or currently seeking work. They empower people to play a greater role in society 2 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as by creating jobs, they contribute to the growth of local an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality below. economies, and they enable people to come together to Guide to Quality: improve the well being of communities. This Government The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, is committed to supporting social firms and social the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely enterprises to grow through initiatives such as Big Society to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 Capital, the Investment and Contract Readiness Programme with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. and strategic funding for Social Firms UK. Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered Unemployment: Wolverhampton precise ** 5 = CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably precise Mr McFadden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered Office (1) how many people in Wolverhampton South acceptable East constituency have been unemployed for over **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too 12 months; and what the equivalent figure was in May unreliable for practical purposes [146795] CV = Coefficient of Variation 2010; Source: (2) how many young people aged 18 to 24-years-old Annual Population Survey have been unemployed for over 12 months in Wolverhampton South East constituency; and what the equivalent figure was in May 2010; [146796] Public Appointments (3) how many young people aged 18 to 24-years-old are unemployed in Wolverhampton South East Steve McCabe: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet constituency; and what the equivalent figure was in Office (1) what code is used to regulate the behaviour of May 2010; [146797] Government-appointed Tsars; [144766] (4) how many people are unemployed in (2) which Government Tsars have been appointed Wolverhampton South East constituency; and what the since May 2010; and on which Government projects equivalent figure was in May 2010. [146798] each such Tsar has assisted. [144767] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Mr Maude: As was the practice under previous asked the authority to reply. Administrations, the Government values receiving advice Letter from Glen Watson, dated March 2013: from a wide range of sources including by appointing As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I unpaid policy experts. Although a central list of have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking: appointments by this or previous Administrations is (1) How many people in Wolverhampton South East constituency not maintained, details of the most recent appointments have been unemployed for over 12 months; and what the equivalent can be found on the No. 10 or departmental websites. figure was in May 2010 (146795); 1143W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1144W
(2) How many young people aged 18 to 24 have been unemployed teamwork help students to reach their academic potential for over 12 months in Wolverhampton South East constituency; and become well-rounded and accomplished adults fully and what the equivalent figure was in May 2010 (146796); prepared for life beyond school; and (b) for the armed (3) How many young people aged 18 to 24 are unemployed in services, the positive effects of utilising their skills and Wolverhampton South East constituency; and what the equivalent expertise in an educational context. figure was in May 2010 (146797); (4) How many people are unemployed in Wolverhampton Some of the supporting evidence was included in the South East constituency; and what the equivalent figure was in press notice of 7 December 2012 announcing the military May 2010 (146798); ethos in schools grants: The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment http://tinyurl.com/ahv3r5u statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey The documents used in the formulation of this (APS), following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. programme are as follows: Estimates from the APS show that the unemployment level in Wolverhampton South East for October 2011 to September 2012 1. Blond, P., Kaszynska, P., Military Academies: Tackling and June 2009 to July 2010, the period closest to May 2010, was disadvantage improving ethos and changing outcome. Respublica. 6,000 for both periods. However, estimates of unemployment for 2. Burkard, T. (2008) Troops to Teachers: A successful programme the requested duration and age bands in Wolverhampton South from America for our inner city schools. London: Centre for East are not available due to small sample sizes. Policy Studies. Available free of charge at: As an alternative, we have provided the number of persons http://www.cps.org.uk/files/reports/original/111027170546- claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) in Wolverhampton South 20080214PublicServicesTroopsToTeachers.pdf East constituency for the requested ages and durations. The 3. Burki, A., and T. Burkard. (2011) Something can be done: counts of people claiming JSA are those who are claiming benefits Troops in our schools will do more than troops on our streets. for unemployment related purposes. At a UK level the total London: Centre for Policy Studies. Available free of charge at: number of JSA claimants is around two thirds of the total unemployment level. http://www.cps.org.uk/files/reports/original/120123155449- Somethingcanbedone.pdf National and local area estimates for many labour market statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant 4. Feistritzer, C. E (2005) Profile of the Troops to Teachers count are available on the NOMIS website at Programme. Washington: National Centre for Education Information. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Available free of charge at: http://www.dantes.doded.mil/Sub%20Pages/Order_Materials/ Number of people1 claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Wolverhampton South East constituency Docs/TTT_0004.pdf All people Aged 18 to 24 5. Greatbatch, D., Tolley. H., Gibbons, C. Mallia, C., (2007), Evaluation of Skill Force: 2006-2007. Nottingham: University of May 2010 4,285 1,230 Nottingham. Available free of charge at: January 2013 4,775 1,380 http://www.skillforce.org/sites/default/files/ 1 Computerised claims only. These currently account for approximately 99.7% University%20of%20Nottingham%20- of all claims. SkillForce%20Report.pdf Note: Data rounded to nearest 5. 6. Institute of Education (2005) Skill Force Evaluation. London: Source: University of London, Jobcentre Plus Administrative System Available free of charge at: http://www.skillforce.org/who-we-are/our-story accessed 19/04/11 EDUCATION 7. Moon, G., Twigg, L., Horwood. J., (2010), The Societal Impact of Cadet Forces, Available free of charge at: Academies Capital Maintenance Fund http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ youngpeople/cadetforces/a00210928/a-study-on-the-benefits- Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for of-cadets Education how much money will be made available in 8. Owings, W.A.(2006) Teacher Quality and Troops to Teachers: the Academies Capital Maintenance Fund in 2013-14; A National Study with Implications for Principals, National and when applicants to the Fund will be told if they Association of Secondary School Principals, Available priced have been successful. [138892] $25.00 at: http://bul.sagepub.com/content/90/2/102.full.pdf+html Mr Laws: The Secretary of State for Education, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), The Department also used the following document announced on 1 March 2013 that the annual allocation which is unavailable in the public domain: Burton, R, for the 2013-14 Academies Capital Maintenance Fund and Jacobs. J, (2011) Comparative Study of Critical is £392 million. K-12 Teaching Skills between Florida based Military Instructors and Experienced Classroom Teachers. We expect to notify academies of the outcome of their applications to the initial round of the 2013-14 Academies Capital Maintenance Fund in April. Schools: Playing Fields Schools: Armed Forces Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the reason was for the time taken for Education what assessment he has made of the his Department to provide the answer of 28 February potential benefits of the military ethos programme to 2013, Official Report, column 612W, on schools: (a) students enrolled on the programme and (b) the playing fields, tabled on 12 October 2012 for named armed services. [144037] day answer on 17 October 2012. [146779] Mr Laws: The potential benefits of the military ethos Mr Laws: The Department has been having ongoing programme are: (a) for students enrolled on the technical difficulties in tracking the parliamentary questions programme, that core values, such as self-discipline and submitted. Parliamentary question number 122765 was 1145W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1146W one of those not correctly tracked. I apologise for the withdrawing the provisional allocation of waste unacceptable delay in providing an answer. Action is infrastructure credits for three projects, including the now being taken to ensure such delays do not occur Merseyside and Halton Waste Partnership. [146589] again. Richard Benyon: As part of monitoring progress towards Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for meeting EU landfill directive targets, we assessed the Education what input special advisers in his amount of residual waste treatment infrastructure we Department had in preparing the answer of estimate—on reasonable assumptions—is required to 28 February 2013, Official Report, column 612W, on meet our obligation to reduce the amount of biodegradable schools: playing fields. [146780] waste sent to landfill. Mr Laws: Ministerial advisers are asked by Ministers As a result, we withdrew the provisional allocation of to check the draft answers to all parliamentary questions. waste infrastructure credits to the three remaining local authority-led projects in procurement. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA’s website Education on what date the draft answer of www.defra.gov.uk 28 February 2013, Official Report, column 612W, on has details of the analysis that informed our decision. schools: playing fields, was submitted to a Minister for approval. [146781] Flood Insurance Mr Laws: Parliamentary question number 122765 was submitted for ministerial approval on 27 February 16. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions he has had on flood insurance. [146592]
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Richard Benyon: The availability and affordability of insurance in flood risk areas is an important issue for Beef Products this Government. Constructive negotiations continue with the insurance industry, at the highest levels of 11. Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Government, on a range of approaches that could Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress he succeed the current Statement of Principles. has made on securing a Europe-wide response to the The Government is on course to spend £2.3 billion on problem of adulterated beef products. [146586] reducing the risk from flooding and coastal erosion and deliver better protection to 165,000 households over the Mr Heath: This is a Europe-wide problem and I four years to March 2015. spoke to key Ministers from affected member states, resulting in an emergency meeting with the Commissioner 18. David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for in Brussels. We agreed five points for action, the most Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent important of which is Europe-wide DNA testing. At discussions he has had on flood insurance. [146594] EU Agriculture Council on 25 February 2013 the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Richard Benyon: The availability and affordability of right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) insurance in flood risk areas is an important issue for urged all member states to share information rapidly in this Government. Constructive negotiations continue support of a coordinated response and where appropriate with the insurance industry, at the highest levels of criminal investigations. Government, on a range of approaches that could succeed the current Statement of Principles. Horsemeat The Government is on course to spend £2.3 billion on 13. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for reducing the risk from flooding and coastal erosion and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he deliver better protection to 165,000 households over the has made of the length of time that horsemeat has been four years to March 2015. in the UK food chain illegally. [146588] Bottles: Recycling Mr Heath: Until such time as ongoing investigations are completed and the origin of fraudulent activity is Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for confirmed, the Department cannot make an estimate of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) when he last the length of time that horsemeat has been in the UK met representatives of the bottling industry to discuss food chain. Since this issue first came to light, action the Statutory Packaging Recycling Targets 2013 to has focussed on uncovering the scale of the problem, 2017: [146747] securing action at a European level and tracking down those who have caused this situation in order to bring (2) what recent representations he has received from them to justice. A number of investigations are ongoing. the bottling industry on the statutory packaging recycling targets established for the period 2013 to Waste Infrastructure Credits 2017. [146788]
14. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: DEFRA officials have met Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what representatives of the glass bottling industry and individual assessments were undertaken by his Department before bottling businesses to discuss the statutory packaging 1147W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1148W recycling targets for 2013 to 2017 on four occasions Glass: Recycling since November 2012. The most recent meeting was held on 29 January this year. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Since the decision on higher packaging recovery and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment recycling targets for 2013 to 2017 was announced in the he has made of the likelihood of meeting the 63% Budget in March 2012, the Department has received a recycling target for glass melt in 2013. [146676] number of letters and other correspondence from the glass bottling industry regarding the statutory targets. Richard Benyon: The remelt target for glass recycling in effect freezes the proportion of glass which can be Bovine Tuberculosis sent to non-remelt applications at 2009 levels— approximately 37%. The Environment Agency has estimated Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for that the proportion of glass sent to remelt applications Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the in 2012 was approximately 60%. boundaries are of the reserve pilot area for the The packaging recovery note (PRN) system, established proposed badger cull. [146038] by the Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) Regulations 2007 (as amended), will enable the Mr Heath: We recognise that people wish to know the remelt target for 2013 to be met. It provides a mechanism boundaries of the reserve pilot area. There is, however, by which additional funding is generated to support the a risk that publishing specific details of the location collection and recycling of packaging waste materials. could increase the level of any unlawful activity aimed Following the introduction of the remelt target, more at disrupting the cull. PRN revenue will be directed to glass remelt facilities As part of the licensing process there will be an which they are expected to invest in increasing capacity opportunity for those living within or close to the cull for the collection, sorting and reprocessing of glass for area to raise any concerns they may have. Details will be remelt. This could take the form of increased support published on the Natural England website. A broad for waste collectors, including local authorities, to collect description of the area will be made available which more glass in a manner which facilitates remelt. balances the need for transparency with the need to Horse Meat protect the safety of those living and working within the application area, as well as those who will undertake the licensed operation. Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the Food Dangerous Dogs Standards Agency informed the Secretary of State of the names of the UK companies suspected of horse meat fraud. [143661] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to Mr Heath: Investigations into the adulteration of the Written Ministerial Statement of 6 February 2013, processed beef products with horsemeat are ongoing. Official Report, column 15WS, on irresponsible dog The Food Standards Agency (FSA) announced on ownership, whether the Government plans to bring 12 February that action had been taken at Farmbox forward in this parliamentary Session an amendment and Peter Boddy, and DEFRA Ministers were informed to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 to allow for the that the FSA would be entering two premises as part of prosecution of attacks that take place on private their investigation on that same morning. While the property. [142890] FSA and police are pursuing other lines of inquiry, it would be inappropriate to discuss details at this stage at Mr Heath [holding answer 12 February 2013]: The the risk of jeopardising the FSA’s ability to take earliest that such an amendment could be introduced enforcement action. into Parliament is the Third Session beginning this spring. Horses: Animal Welfare
Food: Origin Marking Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State has made of the number of horses in the UK that are at for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what risk of being abandoned or fly-grazed; and what estimate he has made of the average cost to a UK food discussions he has had with horse welfare organisations producer group of obtaining European Protected about their humane disposal. [145335] Foods status. [146382] Mr Heath: The UK population of horses is estimated Mr Heath: The Secretary of State for Environment, by the British Equestrian Trade Association’s National Food and Rural Affairs has made no such estimate. Equestrian Survey 2011 to be just below 1 million. Little meaningful information would, in any case, be DEFRA has made no estimate of the number at risk of conveyed by making one, since producer groups differ being abandoned or fly-grazed, but evidence from the enormously in size and the costs of preparing protected animal welfare charities and the British Horse Society food names applications vary correspondingly. It should, suggest that the risk is on the increase. Their recent however, be noted that in contrast to some EU member report ″Left on the Verge″ estimates that some 6,000 states, the United Kingdom Government does not charge horses are at risk of abandonment and fly grazing. any fee for the work involved in submitting protected Ministers have discussed the report with the welfare food names applications. organisations concerned and with the All Party 1149W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1150W
Parliamentary Group for the Horse. Steps can be taken Water Companies by landowners and others to tackle the issue and controls are in place to help them do so including using the anti Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for social behaviour legislation. Largely the problem is one Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many of tackling irresponsible owners and breeders. We are meetings he has had with water suppliers since taking discussing with the Home office what further measures up his post. [145991] could be considered. Richard Benyon: As the Minister responsible for the Livestock: Transport water sector I have regular contact with water industry leaders, regulators and investors at industry events and meetings. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is taking to ensure the welfare of animals during CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT transport. [143108] Arts and Culture Mr Heath: The Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency (AHVLA) is responsible for Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for implementation of the EU rules on the protection of Culture, Media and Sport how much arts and culture animals during transport (Council Regulation (EC) funding was provided by (a) the Government, (b) 1/2005). It carries out non-discriminatory, risk based, local authorities and (c) via philanthropic giving, in (i) inspections of animals, means of transport and the UK and (ii) each region of England, in each year accompanying documentation, as required by this since 2009-10; and what estimate she has made of such legislation. figures in each year up to 2014-15. [146527] Following events at Ramsgate port on 12 September 2012, I asked AHVLA to review the risk basis for its Mr Vaizey: In relation to arts and culture funding inspections and as a result it is currently undertaking provided by the Department to our arm’s length bodies 100% supervised loadings of the vehicles at the point of I refer to the right hon. Lady to the answer of 19 November departure. 2012, Official Report, columns 318-20W on arts. However, we are unable to provide a regional breakdown without incurring a disproportionate cost. Reptiles: Imports My Department does not collate such figures. However, the Department for Communities and Local Government Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for does collate and publish data on local authority outturn Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many and budgeted spending and financing. CITES and non-CITES listed reptiles as recorded under TRACES have been imported to the UK from In relation to philanthropy the figures for 2009-10 within Europe in each year since 2001; and if he will and 2010-11 are as follows, but no estimate has been made for future years. make a statement. [144701] 2009-10 Richard Benyon: The Trade Control and Expert System Total for the UK (including business investment, individual (TRACES) database does not distinguish between species giving and trusts and foundations) = £657,068,757. listed under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) and species not so listed. Regional breakdown Private investment (£) It is therefore not possible to make that distinction. East 13,563,152 No veterinary certification is required for live reptiles London 448,056,662 imported from other EU member states. Member states Midlands 20,098,531 are therefore not obliged to record these consignments North East 13,934,487 on TRACES. However, the information held on the North West 20,611,568 numbers of reptiles imported into the UK from within South East 32,858,162 the EU according to the TRACES database is shown in Southwest 22,158,397 the following table. Yorkshire 18,407,564 The use of TRACES did not become obligatory until 1 January 2005. Therefore we are unable to provide data 2010-11 from TRACES prior to this date. Total for the UK (including business investment, individual Live reptiles imported into the UK from other EU member states giving and trusts and foundations) = £685,631,362. (according to TRACES, 26 February 2013) Number Regional breakdown Private investment (£)
2005 2,007 East 13,960,326 2006 1,470 London 488,353,930 2007 520 Midlands 18,591,364 2008 1,804 North East England 12,088,167 2009 2,032 North West England 21,130,325 2010 1,255 South East England 28,406,269 2011 17,889 South West England 14,996,240 2012 8,381 Yorkshire and Humber 16,182,777 1151W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1152W
Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: A discussion paper on a state aid umbrella Culture, Media and Sport what information her for the Super-Connected Cities programme was submitted Department holds on local government spending on to the European Commission on 10 December 2012. arts and culture in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) This followed a meeting I had with Joaquin Almunia, 2011-12; and how much such expenditure is expected to the European Commissioner for Competition, on be in (i) 2012-13, (ii) 2013-14 and (iii) 2014-15. [146391] 8 November last year to discuss the programme and to inform him of our intention to apply for state aid Mr Vaizey [holding answer 5 March 2013]: My approval. Department does not collate such figures. However, the Department for Communities and Local Government Culture, Practices and Ethics of the Press Inquiry does collate and publish data on local authority outturn and budgeted spending and financing. Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what the final cost to the Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for public purse was of Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry into Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of culture, practice and ethics of the press. [146264] 27 February 2013, Official Report, column 543W, on arts and cultural services, which (a) local authority Mr Vaizey: The total cost for Leveson’s nine month council leaders and (b) local authority cabinet long inquiry into the culture, practice and ethics of the members for arts and cultural services she has met. press has yet to be finalised. Details of final total [146402] expenditure will be published in due course. Newcastle Upon Tyne Mr Vaizey: The Department publishes details of all ministerial meetings with external organisations, since Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for May 2010, on its transparency website at the following Culture, Media and Sport on how many occasions (a) link: she and (b) the Minister for Culture have visited ixhttp://www.transparency.culture.gov.uk/category/other/ Newcastle upon Tyne since May 2010. [146334] meetings/ Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Media Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Culture, Media and Sport what discussions she has had Basingstoke (Maria Miller), has not visited Newcastle with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local upon Tyne since her appointment in September 2012, Government on the potential effects of reduced and I have not visited since May 2010. The former funding for local government on arts and culture Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport visited budgets. [146434] Newcastle upon Tyne on departmental business in August 2011. Every consideration will be given to Ministers Mr Vaizey [holding answer 5 March 2013]: Ministers visiting the area again in the future. within the Department for Culture, Media and Sport regularly meet colleagues from the Department for Rugby: Females Communities and Local Government to discuss a range of matters. As the Minister for Culture, Communications Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, and Creative Industries, I am also addressing the Local Media and Sport how much her Department has spent Government Association’s annual culture, tourism and supporting women’s rugby in each of the last five years. sport conference on 7 March 2013 on growth and the [146660] economy. Hugh Robertson: Sport England have invested the Broadband following in support of women’s rugby in the last five years:
Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 4 December 2012, Official Report, column 704W, on 2008-09 1,536,667 Broadband Delivery UK, how the digital dividend 2009-10 2,062,375 broadband funds which the BBC Trust agreed in 2010-11 2,090,375 August 2012 to pay to her Department from April 2015 2011-12 2,090,375 will be administered in the absence of Broadband UK. 2012-13 2,018,375 [139706] Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr Vaizey [holding answer 28 February 2013]: There Media and Sport what steps she is taking to support has been no change to the position pursuant to the the English national women’s rugby union team in answer given on 4 December 2012 and to date, no advance of the rugby world cup. [146661] decision made on spending on broadband beyond April 2015. Hugh Robertson: Sport England is investing £375,000 in both 2013-14 and 2014-15 specifically to support Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for women’s elite rugby. This is in addition to the £4 million Culture, Media and Sport when the intent to give state investment as part of Sport England’s Whole Sport aid to the Super Connected Cities programme was Plan funding which the RFU will invest into the talent notified to the European Commission. [146831] system for women’s rugby over the period 2013-17. 1153W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1154W
Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, The UK Tourism Satellite Account (UK-TSA) provides Media and Sport if she will encourage Premiership information about the demand for goods and services rugby union clubs to support a women’s side. [146663] associated with the activity of tourists and the relationship of this demand to the supply of such goods and services Hugh Robertson: The RFU is investing £2,075,000, within the UK economy. specifically on attracting more girls and young women The UK-TSA sets out the contributions that tourism to rugby. Funding will be used for targeted work with makes to the economy of the UK as a whole and to rugby clubs to support their efforts to develop more individual “tourism industries”in particular. Such industries women’s and girls’ teams. invariably serve tourists and non-tourists alike and the UK-TSA includes a series of “tourism ratios” which Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, estimate the proportions of products supplied in the Media and Sport what steps she is taking to encourage UK that are consumed by tourists. the broadcast media’s coverage of women’s rugby. [146664]
Mr Vaizey: Government is committed to encouraging HEALTH more coverage of women’s sport on television, radio and in the press. To that end, the Secretary of State Cardiovascular System: Diseases wrote to all major broadcasters at the end of last year, asking for ideas on how they might show more women’s Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for sport. In January, she brought together broadcasters, Health whether he plans to publish the cardiovascular journalists, and women leaders in sport to debate what disease outcomes strategy; and if he will make a we can do to increase coverage of all our sporting statement. [146210] achievements by male and female athletes. Building on that, the Department is holding a series of workshops Anna Soubry: The ‘Cardiovascular Disease Outcomes focused on: Strategy’ was published on 5 March 2013. A copy of the (1) Sharing best practice on how women’s sports can position strategy has already been placed in the Library. themselves to attract greater media coverage; Care Quality Commission (2) Engaging teenage and women’s magazines to increase their sports coverage; Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) Developing commercial and media partnerships with women’s Health what monitoring his Department undertakes of sports. Care Quality Commission inspection arrangements. Sports: Females [146336]
Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Norman Lamb: The Care Quality Commission (CQC) Media and Sport what measures her Department is is the independent regulator of health and adult social taking to encourage girls to participate in (a) sport care providers in England. The Department monitors the CQC financial and operational performance and and (b) women’s rugby. [146662] risks at both a general and strategic level through Hugh Robertson: As part of the Youthand Community regular formal accountability meetings. The Department Sport Strategy, Sport England will work with the national does not assess CQC’s inspection or monitoring governing bodies of sport to establish a number of arrangements of specific health and adult social care ″girls only″ satellite community sports clubs. They are providers. also investing £1.7 million in the Women’s Sport and The CQC is responsible for assessing and ensuring Fitness Foundation (WSFF), as a national partner for the quality of its inspection and monitoring of 2013-14 to work with sports on increasing participation specific providers on a day to day basis. The CQC among women. publish reports following its inspections on its A further £10 million is being invested through the website. The CQC’s annual accounts and annual report Active Women fund, a lottery programme that aims to are laid before Parliament and it is publicly accountable get women living in deprived areas and women with through parliamentary scrutiny, including Select children under the age of 16 into sport. Committees. The RFU is investing £2,075,000, specifically on The CQC advises the Department at the start of each attracting more girls and young women to rugby, by financial year, as part of its business plan, how many increasing coaching provision and developing women’s inspections it has scheduled to carry out over the teams within clubs. forthcoming financial year. The CQC also publishes an overall assessment of the inspections it has carried out Tourism during the previous year in the State of Care Report. The last report was published on 22 November 2012. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, As at 27 February, the CQC advise that the number Media and Sport what methodology her Department of inspections expected to be completed by the end of uses to measure the effect of its support of the tourist March 2013 will be 28,542. This number may change if, economy in England. [146787] for example, locations are deregistered.
Hugh Robertson: The Department uses the ONS Tourism Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Satellite Account (TSA) framework and methodology Health how many Care Quality Commission inspectors to estimate the support of the tourist economy in the are employed per head of population in each health UK. This is based on international best practice. commissioning group area of England. [146337] 1155W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1156W
Norman Lamb: The information is not available in (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that clinical the format requested. commissioning groups adopt fair access criteria for The Care Quality Commission (CQC) has provided in-vitro fertilisation treatment in accordance with the following information. The CQC does not hold recent National Institute for Health and Clinical population census data with which to compare inspector Excellence guidelines on fertility. [146778] numbers. The following table contains the total numbers of compliance inspectors per region as at 1 March 2013. Anna Soubry: The level of provision of health services, including fertility treatment, is a matter for clinical Region Number of compliance inspectors commissioning groups (CCGs) from 1 April 2013, taking account of the needs of all their population. CCGs will Central East 136 be held to account by the NHS Commissioning Board Central West 148 (NHSCB), who have issued to CCGs a factsheet about London 124 commissioning fertility services. This sets out how CCGs North East 136 should approach commissioning fertility services and North West 124 take account of the revised National Institute for Health South Central 89 and Clinical Excellence Fertility Guidelines. The factsheet South East 113 can be found at: South West 96 www.commissioningboard.nhs.uk/files/2013/02/fertility- facts.pdf Grand total 966 The Department has funded Infertility Network UK (INUK), the leading infertility patient support group, Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for to produce advice for NHS commissioners in England Health whether his Department has issued guidance on about standardising eligibility criteria for fertility services, the number of Care Quality Commission inspectors This is signposted in the fertility factsheet that the there should be in each area of England. [146342] NHSCB recently issued to CCGs. INUK’s advice is: ″PCTs (primary care trusts, now CCGs) should move towards Norman Lamb: The Department has not issued any a position where funding is available for those who do not have a guidance to the Care Quality Commission (CQC) on living child, including couples where one partner is childless. As the number of inspectors there should be in each area of investment in fertility services increases, funding may be available for IVF where both partners have a child/children from a previous England. The CQC is the independent regulator of relationship, but not from the current relationship. In all considerations health and adult social care providers in England. It is of parental status, there should be an explicit statement that for the CQC to determine the appropriate number of children adopted by either partner should have the same status as inspectors it requires in order to carry out its functions biological children″. efficiently and effectively. The Department has received some correspondence about this issue. Dementia Health Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he expects to publish the independent evaluation of dementia adviser and peer support Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health services. [145967] when the results of the Department’s £1 million independent evaluation of the Public Health Norman Lamb: The independent evaluation of dementia Responsibility Deal will be published. [146680] adviser and peer support network services will be published shortly. Dr Poulter: The Public Health Responsibility Deal evaluation comprises two parts—the scoping study and Fertility the main evaluation. The scoping study findings have been submitted for publication in two peer-reviewed Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for journals: a review of voluntary agreements is in press Health (1) what guidance his Department provides to and will be published shortly. The main evaluation is in primary care trusts on access to NHS fertility the process of being commissioned to run over three treatment by people whose partners already have years. The publication schedule has not yet been determined. children through previous relationships; [146616] (2) what his Department’s policy is on access to NHS Hospital Beds: Greater London fertility treatment by people whose partners already have children through previous relationships; and if he Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement; [146617] Health what the current provision of hospital beds is at (3) what representations he has received on access to (a) University College, (b) the Royal Free, (c) the NHS fertility treatment by people whose partners Whittington and (d) North Middlesex hospitals; what already have children through previous relationships. the comparative figures were for each of the last five [146618] years; and what he envisages the provision to be by the end of 2013-14. [146436] Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what his Department’s policy is on the Anna Soubry: The information is not available in the provision of IVF treatment for couples where one format requested. Information on hospital bed availability partner has children from a previous relationship; at the trusts responsible for each of the specified hospitals [146744] during each of the last five years is shown in the 1157W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1158W following tables. It is the responsibility of individual that the availability of hospital beds is appropriate to trusts, working with local NHS commissioners, to ensure meet demand.
Average daily number of available beds open overnight by sector, selected NHS organisations, Q1 2010-11 to Q3 2012-13 General Mental Learning Period Code Organisation name Total and Acute illness disabilities Maternity
2012-13 December RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 520 483 6 — 31 Trust 2012-13 September RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 515 478 6 — 31 Trust 2012-13 June RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 512 479 6 — 27 Trust 2011-12 March RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 628 591 1 — 36 Trust 2011-12 December RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 614 577 1 — 36 Trust 2011-12 September RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 607 581 1 — 25 Trust 2011-12 June RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 640 603 1 — 36 Trust 2010-11 March RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 647 609 1 — 37 2010-11 December RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 637 600 2 — 36 2010-11 September RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 636 597 3 — 36 2010-11 June RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 639 598 1 — 39
2012-13 December RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 350 321 — — 29 NHS Trust 2012-13 September RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 342 313 — — 29 NHS Trust 2012-13 June RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 338 309 — — 29 NHS Trust 2011-12 March RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 358 329 — — 29 NHS Trust 2011-12 December RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 352 323 — — 29 NHS Trust 2011-12 September RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 331 302 — — 29 NHS Trust 2011-12 June RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 376 347 — — 29 NHS Trust 2010-11 March RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 379 350 — — 29 NHS Trust 2010-11 December RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 390 361 — — 29 NHS Trust 2010-11 September RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 378 349 — — 29 NHS Trust 2010-11 June RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 377 348 — — 29 NHS Trust
2012-13 December RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 320 262 12 — 46 2012-13 September RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 313 254 12 — 46 2012-13 June RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 316 257 12 — 47 2011-13 March RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 334 280 12 — 43 2011-12 December RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 337 283 12 — 43 2011-12 September RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 316 275 — — 42 2011-12 June RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 366 305 12 — 49 2010-11 March RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 319 276 — — 43 2010-11 December RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 307 265 — — 42 2010-11 September RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 327 284 — — 43 2010-11 June RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 332 291 — — 40
2012-13 December RRV University College London Hospitals 851 799 12 — 40 NHS Foundation Trust 2012-13 September RRV University College London Hospitals 843 791 12 — 40 NHS Foundation Trust 2012-13 June RRV University College London Hospitals 844 791 12 — 40 NHS Foundation Trust 2011-12 March RRV University College London Hospitals 844 792 12 — 40 NHS Foundation Trust 2011-12 December RRV University College London Hospitals 844 792 12 — 40 NHS Foundation Trust 2011-12 September RRV University College London Hospitals 844 792 12 — 40 NHS Foundation Trust 1159W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1160W
Average daily number of available beds open overnight by sector, selected NHS organisations, Q1 2010-11 to Q3 2012-13 General Mental Learning Period Code Organisation name Total and Acute illness disabilities Maternity
2011-12 June RRV University College London Hospitals 846 792 12 — 42 NHS Foundation Trust 2010-11 March RRV University College London Hospitals 864 808 12 — 43 NHS Foundation Trust 2010-11 December RRV University College London Hospitals 845 791 12 — 42 NHS Foundation Trust 2010-11 September RRV University College London Hospitals 845 791 12 — 42 NHS Foundation Trust 2010-11 June RRV University College London Hospitals 959 895 12 — 52 NHS Foundation Trust Note: The KH03 was an annual collection from all NHS organisations that have beds, both NHS Trusts and PCTs that collected the total number of available bed days and the total number of occupied bed days by ward classification. From Quarter 1 2010-11 the collection was changed to a quarterly collection. The classification for bed occupancy was changed from ward type to the consultant specialty of the responsible consultant. Source: Department of Health: Unify2 data collection—KH03
Average daily number of available beds open day only by sector, selected NHS organisations, Q1 2010-11 to Q3 2012-13 General Mental Learning Period Code Organisation name Total and Acute illness disabilities Maternity
2012-13 December RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 76 76 0 — 0 Trust 2012-13 September RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 77 76 1 — — Trust 2012-13 June RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 70 70 0 — — Trust 2011-12 March RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 70 70 0 — — Trust 2011-12 December RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 69 69 0 — — Trust 2011-12 September RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 69 69 0 — — Trust 2011-12 June RAL Royal Free London NHS Foundation 70 70 0 — — Trust 2010-11 March RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 71 71 0 — — 2010-11 December RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 70 69 0 — — 2010-11 September RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 70 70 0 — — 2010-11 June RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 70 70 — — —
2012-13 December RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 21 21 — — — NHS Trust 2012-13 September RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 23 23 — — — NHS Trust 2012-13 June RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 23 23 — — — NHS Trust 2011-12 March RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 23 23 — — — NHS Trust 2011-12 December RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 23 23 — — — NHS Trust 2011-12 September RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 23 23 — — — NHS Trust 2011-12 June RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 23 23 — — — NHS Trust 2010-11 March RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 21 21 — — — NHS Trust 2010-11 December RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 22 22 — — — NHS Trust 2010-11 September RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 22 22 — — — NHS Trust 2010-11 June RAP North Middlesex University Hospital 21 21 — — — NHS Trust
2012-13 December RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 43 43 — — — 2012-13 September RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 41 41 — — — 2012-13 June RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 42 42 — — — 2011-12 March RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 57 57 — — — 2011-12 December RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 45 45 — — — 2011-12 September RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 45 45 — — — 2011-12 June RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 45 45 — — — 2010-11 March RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 46 46 — — — 2010-11 December RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 44 44 — — — 1161W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1162W
Average daily number of available beds open day only by sector, selected NHS organisations, Q1 2010-11 to Q3 2012-13 General Mental Learning Period Code Organisation name Total and Acute illness disabilities Maternity
2010-11 September RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust — — — — — 2010-11 June RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 44 44 — — —
2012-13 December RRV University College London Hospitals 190 190 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2012-13 September RRV University College London Hospitals 200 200 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2012-13 June RRV University College London Hospitals 162 162 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2011-12 March RRV University College London Hospitals 122 122 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2011-12 December RRV University College London Hospitals 123 123 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2011-12 September RRV University College London Hospitals 123 123 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2011-12 June RRV University College London Hospitals 124 124 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2010-11 March RRV University College London Hospitals 124 124 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2010-11 December RRV University College London Hospitals 121 121 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2010-11 September RRV University College London Hospitals 113 113 — — — NHS Foundation Trust 2010-11 June RRV University College London Hospitals 141 141 — — 1 NHS Foundation Trust Note: The KH03 was an annual collection from all NHS organisations that have beds, both NHS Trusts and PCTs that collected the total number of available bed days and the total number of occupied bed days by ward classification. From Quarter 1 2010-11 the collection was changed to a quarterly collection. The classification for bed occupancy was changed from ward type to the consultant specialty of the responsible consultant. Source: Department of Health: Unify2 data collection - KH03 Average daily number of available beds open overnight by sector, NHS organisations in England, 2008-09 and 2009-10 General Mental Learning Code Name Total and Acute Acute Geriatric Illness disability Maternity
2009-10 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS 664 625 565 60 — — 39 Trust 2008-09 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS 692 638 594 44 — — 54 Trust
2009-10 RAP North Middlesex University 431 384 298 87 — — 47 Hospital NHS Trust 2008-09 RAP North Middlesex University 415 368 286 83 — — 47 Hospital NHS Trust
2009-10 RKE The Whittington Hospital 401 347 262 85 — — 54 NHS Trust 2008-09 RKE The Whittington Hospital 394 335 267 68 — — 59 NHS Trust
2009-10 RRV University College London 901 809 773 36 12 — 80 Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 2008-09 RRV University College London 866 788 754 34 11 — 67 Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust Note: The KH03 was an annual collection from all NHS organisations that have beds, both NHS Trusts and PCTs that collected the total number of available bed days and the total number of occupied bed days by ward classification. From Quarter 1 2010-11 the collection was changed to a quarterly collection. The classification for bed occupancy was changed from ward type to the consultant specialty of the responsible consultant. Source: Department of Health form KH03
Average daily number of available beds in wards open day only, selected NHS organisations, 2008-09 and 2009-10 Neonates and Organisation ID Name children Other ages Total
2009-10 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 20 206 226 2008-09 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 1 351 352
2009-10 RAP North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 6 41 46 2008-09 RAP North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 6 41 46 1163W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1164W
Average daily number of available beds in wards open day only, selected NHS organisations, 2008-09 and 2009-10 Neonates and Organisation ID Name children Other ages Total
2009-10 RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 6 39 45 2008-09 RKE The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust — 34 34
2009-10 RRV University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation 4 138 142 Trust 2008-09 RRV University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation 6 127 132 Trust Note: The KH03 was an annual collection from all NHS organisations that have beds, both NHS Trusts and PCTs that collected the total number of available bed days and the total number of occupied bed days by ward classification. From Quarter 1 2010-11 the collection was changed to a quarterly collection. The classification for bed occupancy was changed from ward type to the consultant specialty of the responsible consultant. Source: Department of Health form KH03
Medicine: Education Table 1: Total drugs bill expenditure, broken down by sector, for the last five years Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for £ million Primary care drugs Secondary care Total drugs Health how many medical students at UK medical expenditure drugs expenditure expenditure schools qualified as doctors in the latest year for which figures are available; and how many such doctors were 2010 8,280 4,257 12,537 taken on by the NHS in total in that year. [146775] 11 2011-12 8,251 4,482 12,733 Dr Poulter: Data from the Higher Education Funding Sources: 1. Primary care drugs expenditure taken from the Department’s year-end Council for England show that 7,183 students graduated accounts. from United Kingdom medical schools during the year 2. Secondary care drugs expenditure derived from NHS trusts and primary care ended July 2012. trusts finance returns and from foundation trust year-end accounts. Data from the UK Foundation Programme Office show that 6,870 graduates of UK medical schools were NHS: Standards allocated to foundation programmes commencing in August 2012. This figure represents all the eligible applicants from UK medical schools. Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what measures his Department is developing on the Mental Health Services: Restraint Techniques quality of health care provision, other than hospital- standardised mortality rates and summary hospital- Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health level mortality indicators. [146681] how many people died under restraint in mental health institutions in each of the last five years; and how Anna Soubry: The Government’s information strategy many such people were (a) female and (b) female and sets a key ambition for an information-led culture, from an ethnic minority. [146218] where all health and care professionals—and national and local bodies responsible for health and care services— Norman Lamb: Information on the circumstances of take responsibility for recording, sharing and using the deaths of mental health patients is not held centrally. information to improve our care. Under the Mental Health Act 1983 (the Act) the Care The Department, and its arm’s length bodies, is Quality Commission (CQC) has a duty to monitor how constantly developing new measures and indicators of services in England exercise their powers and discharge the quality of health care provision and making as their duties in relation to patients who are detained in much information as possible available publicly. From hospital under the Act, or subject to community treatment 1 April 2013, we will hold the NHS Commissioning orders or guardianship. Detaining authorities must notify Board to account for meeting the objectives set out in the CQC of any death of a patient who is detained the mandate using the NHS Outcomes Framework. under the Act. The framework was derived from Lord Darzi’s three-part NHS: Drugs definition of quality and includes outcomes that relate to the effectiveness of care, the quality of the patient Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health experience and patient safety. The framework is what the total NHS drugs bill was in each of the last refreshed every year, refining existing indicators and five years. [146221] developing new indicators.. We will also implement the Friends and Family Test nationally for all acute Norman Lamb: The requested information is detailed in-patient and Accident and Emergency services to in the following table. encourage services to be responsive to patient needs Table 1: Total drugs bill expenditure, broken down by sector, for the last five and experiences. The test is unique in that it provides years frequent, fast feedback, which is comparable from both £ million patients’ and national health service staff perspectives. Primary care drugs Secondary care Total drugs Although there is currently no aggregate ‘rating’ to expenditure drugs expenditure expenditure summarise the performance of organisations providing 2007-08 7,663 3,274 10,937 health and care services, the Secretary of State for 2008-09 7,749 3,647 11,397 Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South 2009-10 7,946 3,974 11,920 West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has commissioned a review by 1165W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1166W the Nuffield Trust to consider whether an aggregate country and (b) differential rate of hospital bariatric rating should be used and if so, how best this should be procedures. [146233] done. Anna Soubry: No assessment has been made centrally. We have also consolidated work initiated under the Primary care trusts are currently responsible for previous Government. All providers of NHS services commissioning weight management services to meet the are required to publish annual Quality Accounts alongside needs of their population including treatment of obesity their financial accounts. The Department publishes a and bariatric services. The National Institute for Health range of data on performance measures, including waiting and Clinical Excellence has produced “Guidance on the times and the incidence of health care associated infections. prevention, identification, assessment and management The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence of overweight and obesity in adults and children”, has been commissioned to produce a library of 150 to which includes bariatric services. 180 quality standards to define what high quality care looks like for particular pathway of care or groups of From April 2013 local authorities will be responsible patients. The national clinical audit programme is being for commissioning weight management services and the expanded and outcome data for every consultant practising NHS Commissioning Board will directly commission in 10 surgical specialties will be made publicly available. specialist morbid obesity services, which should lead to A library of assured indicators for quality measurement more consistent provision across the country. (Indicators for Quality Improvement) is available on the Organs: Donors website of the Health and Social Care Information Centre. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people were added to the organ Obesity donor register in (a) total, (b) England, (c) Wales, (d) Scotland and (e) Northern Ireland in each month since January 2008. [146652] Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the reasons behind Anna Soubry: The information requested is shown in variations in the (a) treatment of obesity across the the following table.
Number of people added to the organ donor register (ODR) per month, 1 January 2008 to 28 February 2013 Registration date1 Total England Wales Scotland Northern Ireland Unknown2
2008 January 107,754 88,443 4,501 13,462 1,255 93 February 112,158 93,785 4,664 12,511 1,111 87 March 78,844 74,443 3,331 127 879 64 April 119,787 104,805 5,972 237 8,680 93 May 101,083 91,167 5,575 185 4,074 82 June 99,792 49,192 2,786 44,263 3,505 46 July 93,699 75,704 4,683 9,711 3,526 75 August 97,520 78,249 4,821 11,058 3,302 90 September 92,548 72,660 4,850 11,731 3,241 66 October 69,152 52,211 3,618 9,757 3,499 67 November 100,400 79,477 4,861 12,584 3,412 66 December 62,144 51,259 3,041 5,312 2,492 40
2009 January 55,926 40,326 2,532 10,805 2,209 54 February 73,896 59,552 3,139 8,470 2,684 51 March 99,153 82,076 4,903 9,382 2,726 66 April 63,127 56,296 3,349 112 3,324 46 May 113,898 93,533 5,562 12,057 2,679 67 June 57,014 40,662 2,437 11,123 2,759 33 July 101,570 77,160 4,560 16,542 3,233 75 August 97,333 80,676 4,335 8,971 3,306 45 September 81,054 62,808 3,611 11,422 3,165 48 October 94,990 74,364 4,284 12,880 3,381 81 November 109,024 84,701 4,720 15,889 3,666 48 December 115,964 97,240 5,198 10,994 2,466 66
2010 January 111,495 93,503 5,269 9,693 2,944 86 February 111,021 93,619 5,135 9,250 2,909 108 March 118,625 92,984 4,959 17,101 3,506 75 April 43,064 32,147 1,826 5,832 3,194 65 May 32,861 28,222 1,612 139 2,857 31 June3 31 4 0 1 25 1 1167W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1168W
Number of people added to the organ donor register (ODR) per month, 1 January 2008 to 28 February 2013 Registration date1 Total England Wales Scotland Northern Ireland Unknown2
July 79,047 67,343 3,893 7,790 3 18 August 240,683 218,246 12,458 8,101 1,823 55 September 64,490 41,256 2,494 20,319 409 12 October 107,683 89,780 5,876 10,941 1,008 78 November 124,372 92,687 5,980 25,211 455 39 December 69,016 47,732 2,793 18,064 401 26
2011 January 59,641 48,857 2,680 7,687 400 17 February 76,764 68,971 3,890 37 3,838 28 March 21,223 10,978 616 9,597 31 1 April 25,968 22,287 1,279 2,396 0 6 May 190,834 157,100 9,823 16,591 7,278 42 June 124,938 100,026 5,841 16,241 2,811 19 July 101,766 60,657 3,568 33,051 4,468 22 August 93,820 85,766 5,116 21 2,889 28 September 93,839 61,637 3,701 25,562 2,917 22 October 90,145 66,563 4,380 15,364 3,820 18 November 108,574 80,549 4,990 20,168 2,843 24 December 66,658 48,002 2,898 13,415 2,326 17
2012 January 68,944 53,720 3,018 10,411 1,779 16 February 120,155 87,608 5,252 24,553 2,723 19 March 80,086 58,839 3,609 14,989 2,634 15 April 76,352 60,076 3,462 9,994 2,804 16 May 94,959 77,150 4,318 11,087 2,386 18 June 64,258 50,596 3,196 7,940 2,518 8 July 88,944 72,528 4,350 9,817 2,245 4 August 70,742 53,246 3,375 11,919 2,182 20 September 66,019 51,497 3,105 9,071 2,339 7 October 91,876 71,407 4,457 13,559 2,440 13 November 73,434 53,861 2,968 13,674 2,917 14 December 67,326 52,799 2,961 9,582 1,971 13
2013 January 83,395 66,789 3,478 11,198 1,927 3 February 150,160 121,722 7,188 17,398 3,837 15 1 The registration date is the date on which a registrant is added to the ODR. External registrations from partners such as the Drivers and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) are received in batches on a weekly/monthly/quarterly basis and this can also explain marked differences between months. Registration data is received in batches because partners and devolved Administrations find sending data in batches a more efficient use of resources rather than sending data to NHSBTonadaily basis. 2 Unknown column refers to those registrants who have supplied incorrect or incomplete postcodes. 3 Registrations are also very low for some months when there was maintenance work being performed on the ODR such as April to July 2010 when limited registrations were added because of the DVLA coding error. Note: The number of registrations fluctuate depending on local and national publicity on organ donation and transplantation. Source: NHS Blood and Transplant.
Paramedical Staff In addition, a periodic review of the standards of proficiency for paramedics will begin in April 2013. The responsibility for delivering pre-registration education Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for and training lies with individual providers who are Health what plans he has to improve the (a) required to meet the HCPC’s standards of education professional and (b) training standards of paramedics. and training. [146645] Public Health England
Dr Poulter: Setting and maintaining standards for Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health paramedics is the responsibility of the independent how many people will be employed by Public Health statutory regulator, the Health and Care Professions England; and what the budget will be of this body. Council (HCPC). [146219] We understand that the HCPC will shortly be Anna Soubry: Public Health England’s establishment undertaking a periodic review of the standards of conduct, is 5,621 whole-time equivalent staff with an operating performance and ethics for all HCPC regulated professions. budget of £518 million. 1169W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1170W
Public Opinion Number of selected sexually transmitted infections (STIs) diagnosed in GUM clinics (and Chlamydia in community services since 2008) in persons aged 19 and under in England, 2007-11 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Age how much his Department spent on (a) focus groups STI group 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 and (b) opinion polls in (i) 2012, (ii) 2011 and (iii) Total — 36,143 45,798 48,349 42,398 2010. [146216]
Dr Poulter: A list of expenditure incurred by the Gonorrhoea <15 60 47 47 42 45 Department on opinion polling and focus groups in 15 to 3,631 3,287 3,231 3,017 3,200 19 2010, 2011 and 2012 could be provided only at Total 3,691 3,334 3,278 3,059 3,245 disproportionate cost, as the Department does not hold this information centrally. Herpes (first <15 56 67 55 46 60 School Milk episode) 15 to 3,735 4,083 3,942 4,155 4,259 19 Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 3,791 4,150 3,997 4,201 4,319 Health what assessment he has made of the implications for his Department’s policies of European Commission consultation on (a) the European School Syphilis <15 24001 15 to 88 76 115 85 87 Milk Scheme and (b) the European School Fruit 19 Scheme. [145357] Total 90 80 115 85 88 Warts (first <15 153 149 142 108 97 Mr Heath: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the episode) Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. 15 to 15,653 16,364 15,973 14,463 14,053 The European Commission’s consultation, which closes 19 on 22 April 2013, is seeking public opinion. Therefore, Total 15,806 16,513 16,115 14,571 14,150 we cannot assess its implications until the results are Notes: 1. Data are sourced from GUM clinic KC60 returns (200708) and GUM clinic published. GUMCAD returns (2009-11). 2. Chlamydia data from community services are sourced from NCSP and Sexually Transmitted Infections ‘Non-NCSP/Non-GUM’ services (2008-11) for those aged 15 to 19. 3. Numbers of diagnoses are estimated where GUM clinic data are unavailable. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 4. Data represent the number of diagnoses reported and not the number of people diagnosed. how many people under the age of 18 in England were 5. Data represent STI diagnoses among people accessing services located in treated for a sexually transmitted disease in each of the England, i.e. data may include people who are resident in England, Wales, last five years. [146317] Scotland, Northern Ireland or abroad. 7. Age group ‘under 15’includes those aged 13 to 14 only. Anna Soubry: The information available is set out in Streptococcus the following table. Data are sourced from genito-urinary medicine (GUM) Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for clinics in England and data for Chlamydia are supplemented Health (1) what plans he has to respond directly to the (2008-2011) with data sourced from community services. concerns of those people who wrote submissions to the Data cannot be provided restricted to persons under the recent group B Streptococcus consultation responding age of 18 as, prior to 2009, data were aggregated and in favour of screening; [146633] were only available for the age-groups specified in the (2) what assessment he has made of the outcome of table. his Department’s recent consultation on group B Number of selected sexually transmitted infections (STIs) diagnosed in GUM streptococcus. [146820] clinics (and Chlamydia in community services since 2008) in persons aged 19 and under in England, 2007-11 Age Dr Poulter: The Department has not held a public STI group 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 consultation on screening for group B streptococcus (GBS) carriage in pregnancy. Chlamydia <15 332 356 281 272 275 15 to 28,479 64,755 71,603 70,946 65,598 The UK National Screening Committee (UK NSC) 19 advises Ministers and the national health service in all Total 28,811 65,111 71,884 71,218 65,873 four United Kingdom countries about all aspects of screening policy including screening policy for GBS carriage in pregnancy. The UK NSC held a public of which <15 332 356 281 272 275 GUM consultation on its ’Screening for Group B Streptococcal services infection in pregnancy’ review from 16 July 2012 to 15 to 28,479 28,612 25,805 22,597 23,200 23 October 2012. The UK NSC considered all of the 19 consultation responses submitted during the consultation Total 28,811 28,968 26,086 22,869 23,475 period and the screening review was amended in light of these responses. A recommendation was then made to of which <15—————Ministers. community services The Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. 15 to — 36,143 45,798 48,349 42,398 Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), 19 has no plans to respond directly to those people who 1171W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1172W wrote submissions to the UK NSCs consultation on HOME DEPARTMENT screening for GBS carriage in pregnancy. Asylum: Greater London Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how he plans to improve care for expectant Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the mothers and reduce the risk of group B streptococcal Home Department how many destitute asylum seekers infection in new born babies. [146809] have presented themselves at London borough social services departments in each month of the last year; Anna Soubry: The Royal College of Obstetricians and what support they were offered. [146435] and Gynaecologists (RCOG) published its updated guideline on the prevention of early onset neonatal Mr Harper: The majority of adult asylum seekers group B streptococcal (GBS) disease in July 2012. The and their families are supported by the UK Border updated guideline took into account new evidence on Agency, rather than by local authorities. Only a small the prevention of early-onset neonatal GBS disease. It number of adult asylum seekers who have needs above is important that services undertake local clinical, audits and beyond destitution are supported by local authorities, to ensure the effective use of intrapartum antibiotic for example because they are disabled. In these cases, prophylaxis recommended by the guideline. the local authority provides an appropriate level of In 2012 the National Institute for Health and Clinical support depending on their assessment of the person’s Excellence published two clinical audit tools which particular needs. No central record is kept of the number include clinical audit standards, a data collection form of these cases. and an action plan template for use by services that care Unaccompanied asylum seekers who are under 18 for women in labour or for babies at risk of, or being years of age are supported by local authorities under treated for, early on-set neonatal infection. the Children Act 1989. In the financial year 2011-12 the The Department is working together with the national UK Border Agency provided local authorities in London health service, RCOG, the Royal College of Midwives, with funding for 1,525 supported cases. It is not possible the National Institute for Health Research Heath to provide the figure over the past year because the Technology Assessment and the pharmaceutical industry information is still being verified. on a number of areas: the topic of a “point of care” test so that high-risk women, as Confiscation Orders identified in the RCOG revised Green-Top guideline on the prevention of early-onset neonatal GBS disease, can be tested at Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home the start of labour is currently in the Health Technology Assessment Department what the average time taken for the prioritisation process and will be worked up for discussion in terms of relative importance, feasibility and noting any other execution of a confiscation order issued under the existing and on going research; Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 was; and how many orders development of an implementation tool for use locally to audit issued under the Act remained unexecuted for a period current practice and improve implementation of the revised RCOG of at least one year. [146258] guideline on the prevention of early-onset neonatal GBS disease; including GBS as a topic within education and continuing Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 5 March 2013]: professional development programmes for midwives and other The information requested could be provided only at clinicians; and disproportionate cost. monitoring developments on vaccines against GBS infection. Deportation: Offenders Tobacco: Retail Trade Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department (1) how many foreign national Health if he will bring forward legislative proposals to offenders have been deported via the automatic introduce standardised tobacco packaging. [146678] deportation criteria since their inception; [140991] Anna Soubry: I refer the hon. Member to the written (2) how many foreign national offenders eligible to answer I gave him on 4 March 2013, Official Report, be deported via the automatic deportation criteria are column 871W. still in the UK (a) one year, (b) two years, (c) three years, (d) four years and (e) five or more years after Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State their release; and if she will make a statement. [140992] for Health what assessment he has made of the potential increase in counterfeiting and organised Mr Harper [holding answer 5 February 2013]: In crime if tobacco products were sold in plain, 2011-12 the UK Border Agency removed or deported standardised packaging. [146810] 4,500 foreign national offenders from the UK, of these 1,865 were removed under automatic deportation. Anna Soubry: The Department published the In December 2012, 3,350 foreign national offenders ‘Consultation on standardised packaging of tobacco were in the community, while being considered for products’ in April 2012. A consultation-stage impact deportation from the UK. In addition a further 752 assessment was published alongside the consultation. were classified as absconders. These figures are based The Government has an open mind on this issue and on internal management information and are subject to any decisions to take further policy action on tobacco change. packaging will be taken only after full consideration is The following table shows a breakdown of the length given to the consultation responses, evidence and other of time since release of the FNOs living in the community, relevant information. including absconders, at the end of quarter four 2012: 1173W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1174W
Minister of State for Government Policy (Oliver Letwin MP) Q4 2012 Number of foreign national offenders Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (David Gauke MP) Minister of State for Housing and Local Government (Mark Less than six months 374 Prisk MP) Less than 12 months 392 Minister of State for Schools (David Laws MP) Less than 24 months 625 Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs More than 24 months 1,572 (Hugo Swire MP) More than 60 months 1,092 Minister of State for Universities and Science (David Willetts Data quality issues 47 MP) Total 4,102 Minister of State for Justice (Lord McNally) In December 2012, 1,333 foreign national offenders Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna were in detention, while being considered for deportation Soubry MP) from the UK. Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker MP) The UK Border Agency seeks to deport from the UK As with any Cabinet committee it would not be foreign national offenders who meet the criteria for appropriate to comment on specific meetings, including deportation. Every effort is made to ensure that a attendance and agendas. person’s removal by deportation coincides, as far as possible, with his/her release from prison on completion Immigration: Croydon of sentence. However, where this is not possible the UK Border Agency continues to seek to deport individuals following completion of their sentence. Steve Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many UK Border Agency These are cases where the custodial end date or early legacy cases are still outstanding for applicants resident release date were not recorded at the time. in Croydon North constituency. [146752] Immigration Controls Mr Harper: We are unable to provide any breakdown Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the of the Older Live Cases Unit (OLCU) Live Cohort (the Home Department who is on the ministerial group on persons we consider to have outstanding cases in OLCU) migration control; how often this group has met since by constituency. We can breakdown by postcode, region 2012; and who has chaired each such session. [145856] and local authority, however given the age of some of the cases in OLCU, any statistics based on these fields Mr Harper [holding answer 4 March 2013]: I understand would be subject to data quality issues. this question may relate to the Inter-Ministerial Group Immigration: Married People on Migrants’ Access to Benefits and Public Services (IMG). This group has been established to consider whether existing rules preventing illegal non-EEA migrant Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State access to benefits, employment and public services could for the Home Department how many applications to be administered more effectively, and determine whether sponsor a non-EEA national spouse to settle in the UK existing rules on both EEA and non-EEA migrant have failed to meet the minimum financial income access are overgenerous and should be tightened. requirement introduced in July 2012. [146811] The Group consists of the following Ministers: Mr Harper: The latest published figures for 2012 on Chair: Minister of State for Immigration (Mark Harper MP) decisions, grants and refusals for entry clearance visa Deputy Chair: Minister of State for Care Services (Norman applications (from outside the UK) and for extensions Lamb MP) of stay (from inside the UK) for non-EEA partners, Members: potentially leading to settlement (indefinite leave), are Minister of State for Employment (Mark Hoban MP) given in the following tables:
Decisions on entry clearance visas from outside the UK, for non-EEA partners, providing a potential route to settlement (indefinite leave) of which Withdrawn or Quarter Category Decisions Issued Percentage Refused Percentage lapsed
2012 Q1 Family route: Partner 9,946 8,021 81 1,886 19 39 2012 Q2 Family route: Partner 10,119 7,986 79 2,079 21 54 2012 Q3 Family route: Partner 10,970 7,636 70 3,260 30 74 2012 Q4 Family route: Partner 12,624 6,800 54 5,758 46 66
Decisions on extensions of stay from inside the UK, for non-EEA Partners, providing a potential route to settlement (indefinite leave) of which Quarter Category Decisions Issued Percentage Refused Percentage
2012 Q1 Spouse (probationary period 4,598 4,130 90 468 10 applications) 2012 Q2 Spouse (probationary period 3,303 3,011 91 292 9 applications) 2012 Q3 Spouse (probationary period 2,769 2,418 87 351 13 applications) 1175W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1176W
Decisions on extensions of stay from inside the UK, for non-EEA Partners, providing a potential route to settlement (indefinite leave) of which Quarter Category Decisions Issued Percentage Refused Percentage
2012 Q4 Spouse (probationary period 4,534 3,731 82 803 18 applications) Notes: 1. Includes unmarried and civil partners. 2. Excludes decisions on partners applying for immediate settlement. 3. Refusals may relate to applications made in earlier quarters, and may include decisions based on rules in place before July 2012. 4. Data are provisional. Source: Tables be.OLq and ex.01.q, Immigration Statistics October to December 2012.
It is not possible to identify how many of the refusals INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT related to failure to meet the minimum financial income requirement introduced in July 2012 without the inspection of individual cases. Developing Countries: Water Information on applications from outside and within the UK for entry clearance visas and extensions of stay Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for by category is published as part of the Home Office’s International Development pursuant to the quarterly Immigration Statistics, which is available from announcement of 20 April 2012 that her Department the Library of the House and on the Home Office intends to double the reach of its water and sanitations Science website at: work what (a) mechanisms and (b) funds have been http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- put in place to achieve this pledge. [146311] statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ Mr Duncan: DFID is currently considering a number John Stewart of options to ensure we meet our water, sanitation and hygiene (WASH) targets. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for the It is not currently possible to provide a final funding Home Department if she will make representations to total for this work. her US counterpart about the removal of John Stewart, Chairman of HACAN ClearSkies, from the US travel Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for watch list. [146290] International Development with reference to the Independent Commission for Aid Impact’s report on Alistair Burt: I have been asked to reply on behalf of water and sanitation programming in Darfur, whether the Department for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. she plans to introduce a non-governmental US immigration policy and processes are a matter for organisation challenge fund for water and sanitation the US authorities and are not an area where we are programming in (a) Sudan and (b) other countries. able to intervene, just as we would expect the US to [146312] respect our own immigration procedures. Mr Duncan: DFID is currently considering a number Sexual Offences: Southwark of options, including a mechanism similar to a challenge fund to ensure we meet our water, sanitation and hygiene (WASH) targets. Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department with reference to the report of the While it is not possible to confirm which countries Independent Police Complaints Commission on would potentially benefit until specific programmes have Southwark Sapphire Unit’s local practices for the been finalised, I can confirm that the UK is considering reporting and investigation of sexual offences, July its options for delivering water and sanitation programmes 2008 to September 2009, published on 26 February across Sudan and these will be delivered through a 2013, how many cases in the London borough of range of partners including non-governmental Southwark were affected by the issues covered by the organisations. report. [146168]
Damian Green [holding answer 4 March 2013]: The Overseas Aid Home Office does not hold these data. Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Written Questions: Government Responses for International Development how many development contracts are currently awaiting approval. [146335] Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she intends to answer Mr Duncan: There are currently 15 contracts awaiting questions 140991 and 140992 tabled on 29 January for final approval from the Secretary of State. answer on 5 February 2013. [146732] Since September 2012, she has approved all contracts in excess of £1 million in order to improve ministerial Mr Harper: I answered the hon. Member’s question oversight and value for money. Prior to this, all such today. contracts were approved by officials. 1177W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1178W
TREASURY As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such Aggregates Levy: Northern Ireland meetings and discussions. The Government supports the take-up of ultra low Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer emissions vehicle through vehicle excise duty exemptions, what progress has been made towards the the Plug-In Car Grant, tax relief for zero and low re-introduction of the Aggregates Levy Credit Scheme emissions cars through company car tax, and a 100% for Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement. first-year allowance (FYA) for businesses incurring [146769] expenditure on low emissions cars to 31 March 2015. Sajid Javid: In September 2010, the European General Motor Vehicles Court annulled the original decision by the European Commission which had deemed the Aggregates Levy Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Credit Scheme to be approvable state aid. The European further to the answer of 25 January 2013, Official Commission is now conducting a formal investigation Report, column 517W, on motor vehicles, what the into the Aggregates Levy Credit Scheme and a new value of (a) UK exports of cars to the EU and (b) relief scheme cannot be considered until this is concluded. UK imports of cars from the EU was; and what the The Government remains fully committed to reinstating value of (i) UK exports of cars to the rest of the world the aggregates levy credit scheme in Northern Ireland. and (ii) UK imports of cars from the rest of the world Officials have worked closely with the authorities in was in December 2012. [146659] Northern Ireland and representatives of the quarrying industry to provide the Commission with evidence to Sajid Javid: The information is as follows: enable it to approve the aggregates levy credit scheme UK trade in motor cars and other motor vehicles principally designed for the both retrospectively and for the future. transport of persons for December 2012 £ millions Alcoholic Drinks: Prices UK UK UK imports UK imports exports to from Iain Stewart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer exports to from the outside the outside the what proportion of the quantified savings in the health Month the EU EU EU EU and crime budgets set out in the Regulatory Impact Assessment published alongside the Government’s 2012 December 716 1,223 1,131 178 Note: proposals for a minimum unit price for alcohol are Trade is presented on a General Trade basis. non-cashable. [146512] Source: Overseas Trade Statistics, HM Revenue and Customs. Sajid Javid: The regulatory impact assessment estimates The data provided is for trade recorded within the monetised benefits of £401 million at full effect from subheading “8703” in the Tariff product classification health savings to society and £12.9 million per year system. The “8703” heading covers “motor cars and from crime savings to society. It is not possible to give other motor vehicles principally designed for the transport the precise breakdown of cashable versus non-cashable of persons”. savings. Pay Methods Corporation Tax: Croydon Chi Onwurah: To ask the Chancellor of the Steve Reed: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer what assessment he has made of the what the level was of corporation tax receipts collected resilience of the UK payments infrastructure. [146817] from businesses registered in (a) Croydon North constituency and (b) the London borough of Croydon Sajid Javid: HM Treasury works with the Bank of in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. [146749] England and the Financial Services Authority to ensure the resilience of critical financial infrastructure, including Mr Gauke: The information requested is not readily recognised payment systems, and produces an annual available and could be obtained only at disproportionate Finance Sector Resilience Plan. An unclassified version cost. This is because HMRC does not hold details of is published each year on the Cabinet Office website. corporation tax receipts data at a constituency or London This is available at: borough level. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/62312/Summary-2012-Sector-Resilience- Exhaust Emissions: Motor Vehicles Plans.pdf
Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Trade Competitiveness Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 15 January 2013, Official Report, column 662W, on car tax, what recent Mr Ellwood: To ask Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer representations he has received on feebate schemes to what assessment he has made of the UK’s business provide a refund to new car buyers for purchasing competitiveness. [146227] low-emission cars funded by taxes on high-emission cars. [146615] Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Sajid Javid: Treasury Ministers and officials receive The Government routinely monitors a range of indicators representations from a wide variety of authorities as relating to the competitiveness of UK businesses and part of the process of policy development and delivery. the UK business environment. A summary of this work 1179W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1180W was published alongside the Heseltine review as supporting household income for tax credit purposes of between analysis (BIS economics paper no. 19, Benchmarking (a) £5,000 and £5,999, (b) £6,000 and £6,999, (c) UK Competitiveness in the Global Economy). £7,000 and £7,999, (d) £8,000 and £8,999 and (e) Analysis of data on productivity and exports points £10,000 and £16,190; and how many (i) children and to UK strengths across a range of knowledge intensive (ii) school-aged children live in each such household. services such as communications, business services and [146745] finance; along with areas of advanced manufacturing such as aerospace and pharmaceuticals. Sajid Javid: The following table provides the number of families that are in receipt of child tax credit only, Independent assessments of the competitiveness of along with the number of children and school-aged the UK’s business environment such as the World Bank children present in those families. These figures are ’Doing Business Index’, and the World Economic Forum separated by the requested income brackets. ’Global Competitiveness Report’ continue to rank the UK among the top ten performers in the world (7th and School-age children have been defined as those who 8th in the latest rankings respectively). In their latest are aged at least five at 1 December 2012 but less than survey of international tax competitiveness, KPMG 16 as at the beginning of the school year for 2012. ranked the UK as having the most attractive tax regime The answer is restricted to families in receipt of child for business compared to our key competitors. tax credit only, although in-work families can be eligible for working tax credit and have it tapered away. Therefore, Welfare Tax Credits both in and out-of-work families are included. These figures are provided at family level as that is Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the the basis for determining tax credit entitlement. They Exchequer how many households in receipt of child tax are based on provisional tax credits data as at 1 December credit but not working tax credit have an annual 2012.
Thousand Range of income used to taper awards £5,000-£5,999 £6,000-£6,999 £7,000-£7,999 £8,000-£8,999 £9,000-£9,999 £10,000-£16,190
Number of families 74.0 35.3 30.4 27.7 19.2 77.5 Number of children 138.7 66.1 57.3 53.5 35.1 141.3 Number of school-age 82.7 38.2 32.9 31.9 19.8 82.9 children
The information in this answer uses the same tax recorded and funding reduced accordingly. This is to credits data as HMRC’s published statistics, but does ensure that every apprenticeship involves sufficient new not include those out-of-work cases where an amount learning and opportunities to embed new skills. equivalent to tax credits is paid through income support Table 1: Adjusted average length of stay (months) by region, 2009/10 to 2011/12 or jobseeker’s allowance by DWP. Average (adjusted) duration Region 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12
North East 16 13 12 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS North West 16 14 13 Yorkshire and the 15 14 13 Humber Apprentices East Midlands 15 14 13 West Midlands 14 13 12 Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for East of England 15 14 13 Business, Innovation and Skills what the average length London 14 13 12 of an apprenticeship has been in (a) England and (b) each English region in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11 and (iii) South East 15 14 13 South West 15 14 13 2011-12. [146504] Other 19 18 15 Matthew Hancock: Table 1 shows the adjusted average Total151313 length of an apprenticeship framework by region for Notes: 1. Adjusted average length of stay is based on the actual end date of the 2009/10 to 2011/12, the latest year for which full year apprenticeship as recorded in the ILR; it only includes those achievements data are available. within the academic year that were fully funded. 2. Regions are based on the home postcode of the apprentice. Care should be taken when interpreting apprenticeship Source: durations as they are dependent on the mix of Individualised Learner Record apprenticeship levels and frameworks, and the prior attainment of learners (some will already have completed Apprentices: Kingston upon Hull parts of the apprenticeship). The adjusted measure is intended to exclude those apprentices with some prior Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for attainment. Business, Innovation and Skills how many From August 2012, Ministers have decided that an apprenticeships have been created in (a) Hull and (b) apprenticeship must last at least 12 months for under Kingston upon Hull North constituency in each 19s and for adults as well unless prior learning is quarter since Q4 2011. [146672] 1181W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1182W
Matthew Hancock: Table 1 shows the number of Provisional data for the 2012/13 academic year provide Apprenticeship programme starts in Kingston upon an early view of performance in the first quarter and Hull local education authority and Kingston upon Hull will change as further data returns are received from North parliamentary constituency by quarter. Final further education colleges and providers. They should data are shown for the 2010/11 and 2011/12 academic not be directly compared with final year data for the years and provisional data are shown for the first quarter comparable period from previous years. Figures for of the 2012/13 academic year. 2012/13 will be finalised in January 2014.
Table 1: Apprenticeship programme starts by geography and quarter, 2010/11 to 2012/13 (provisional) 2010/11 (final) 2011/12 (final) 2012/13 (provisional) Quarter 4 Quarter 1 Quarter 2 Quarter 3 Quarter 4 Quarter 1
Kingston upon Hull local 960 1,030 780 680 950 940 education authority Kingston upon Hull North 320 330 280 240 330 280 parliamentary constituency Notes: 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Geographic breakdowns are based upon the home postcode of the learner. 3. Figures are based on the geographic boundaries as of May 2010. 4. Provisional data for 2012/13 should not be directly compared with data for earlier years. 5. Quarter 1—1 August to 31 October; Quarter 2—1 November to 31 January; Quarter 3—1 February to 30 April; Quarter 4—1 May to 31 July. Source: Individualised Learner Record
British Antarctic Survey household expenditure of decile groups. The latest edition is available on their website at: Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/family-spending/family- Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of spending/family-spending-2012-edition/index.html 25 February 2013, Official Report, column 26W, on medals, how many people are currently employed by Engineering the British Antarctic Survey; and how many of those employees are bearers of the Polar Medal. [145936] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate Mr Willetts: As at 31 December 2012, there are 548 his Department has made of the shortfall of qualified staff employed by the British Antarctic Survey of which staff in the engineering sector. [145536] 49 are recipients of the Polar Medal. Mr Willetts: There is a substantial demand for engineers Consumer Information who contribute widely to the UK economy. Our recent work on engineering skills has found a complex picture in terms of both supply and demand. The Institute of Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Engineering and Technology found in their Skills and Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Demand in Industry survey 2012 that 29% of employers of 10 January 2013, Official Report, column 450W, on did not expect to be able to recruit the qualified engineers, consumer information, when he expects the working IT staff and technicians they require. Further, the National groups operating in relation to the Midata initiative to Employer Skills Survey 2011 shows establishments in make recommendations; whether such engineering sectors are more likely to report skill shortage recommendations will be published; and if he will place vacancies with between 5% and 8% reporting skill shortage a copy of any recommendations in the Library. vacancies depending on sector. This compares to 3% of [146805] all establishments reporting skill shortage vacancies. Regarding the supply of professional engineers, the Jo Swinson: As set out in the earlier answer we UK produces around 22,000 graduate engineers per anticipate that the working groups will report and make year. Significant supply also comes from those with their recommendations in the summer. Those non-engineering qualifications, for example from maths recommendations will be considered by the Midata and science graduates, and the UK produces around Strategy Board and be publicly available. A copy will be 89,000 science, technology, engineering and mathematics placed in the Libraries of the House. graduates annually. Finally inward migration of engineers to the UK also contributes to the available skills pool. Consumers: Expenditure These factors mean forecasts of supply are built on a number of assumptions. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government has listened to industry and recognises Business, Innovation and Skills how much and what the chronic supply issues they have reported. The most proportion each decile of the UK population significant issue being the difficulty in recruiting staff contributed to consumer spending in the UK in each with specific types of engineering skills, for example year for which data is available. [146364] there is great demand in the aerospace sector for staff with experience in composite materials reflecting as this Jo Swinson: The Department does not collect this is relatively new type of skill. By continuing to work type of information. The Office for National Statistics closely with industry and the engineering institutions publishes ’Family Spending’ which contains data on we aim to encourage more young people to consider 1183W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1184W careers in engineering and transform the outdated and Michael Fallon: 18 companies received new investment negative image of careers in engineering. We are also from Enterprise Capital Funds and 90 investments totalling working to address specific engineering skills shortages, £29.5 million were made in the first three quarters of for example 500 new Aeronautics MSc places are to be 2012-13. Estimates are not made for the number of jointly funded by Government and industry to the tune companies receiving new investment in future years, but of £6 million. Our commitment to nurturing the right this Government committed a further £200 million to engineering skills in the UK was demonstrated at the Enterprise Capital Funds in the Spending Review and Manufacturing Summit on 28 February 2013. The total investor commitment now stands at £396 million Government is also allocating up to £135 million over across 12 funds. the current spending review period to improve science EU Grants and Loans and mathematics education in schools and recognises the importance of engineering in higher education where Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for it is given the status of a strategically important subject Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer and funded accordingly. of 25 February 2013, Official Report, column 293W, on EU Grants and Loans, when a decision will be made Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for on the criteria to be used for the allocation of EU Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his transition funding to regions of the UK; and what Department has made of how a shortfall of qualified consultation process will be used when deciding this staff in the engineering sector may affect overall criteria. [145505] economic growth. [145537] Michael Fallon: The Government will make final Mr Willetts: The UK is one of the world’s largest decisions on allocations of EU transition funding and manufacturers and manufacturing contributes £150 billion other EU funds only after there is an agreement pa to UK economy alone. Engineers also make substantial between the European Parliament and member states contributions to innovation and competitiveness in many on the EU Budget 2014-20. The Department for Business, sectors. Innovative firms employ proportionately more Innovation and Skills is in regular contact with other science, engineering and technology graduates (SET relevant Government Departments and the devolved forms 5.7% of work force in innovation active small Administrations on this issue. firms versus 1.6% in non-innovation active small firms1). Housework Engineers are highly valued in the economy as shown 2 by a recent ONS report . Graduates with degrees in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for mathematical sciences, engineering, technology and Business, Innovation and Skills what data his architecture had the second highest hourly wage rates Department holds on the breakdown of individual of any occupation after medicine and dentistry. domestic chores in the home. [145513] The effect of the supply of engineering skills on growth in the UK economy is difficult to estimate given Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation the complexity of the supply picture. For instance the and Skills does not collect or hold any official information needs of the economy for specific engineering skills that on the breakdown of individual domestic chores in the are in short supply has been partly furnished by inward home. migration. Kazakhstan The Government recognises the need to increase the supply of engineers across the economy. My colleagues Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for in DFE are taking measures to increase the uptake of Business, Innovation and Skills which individuals from maths and science qualifications in schools, the essential which companies accompanied the Minister of State first step to produce more engineers. Working with for Business and Enterprise on his visit to Kazakhstan industry we have been able to significantly increase the in February 2012. [146225] numbers of engineering apprenticeship starts (up 21% Michael Fallon: I was not accompanied by a business in the last year to 59,480), which should provide many delegation on my visit to Kazakhstan in February 2012. of the skilled technicians the economy requires. Investing The aims of the visit were to promote the UK as the in engineering provision in higher and further education partner of choice for business in Kazakhstan—particularly will provide the infrastructure to build the skills of our for renewable energy sources and new technologies. I engineering work force, (for, example in the autumn also wanted to showcase UK expertise across many statement an extra £270 million was announce to be other key sectors including the Oil and Gas Supply spent on laboratories, classrooms and other facilities in Chain, Mining, Financial Services, Education and Training, our further education colleges). We also recognise and to address a number of market access issues. engineering as a strategically important subject in higher education and fund engineering courses accordingly. Kazakhstan has a number of forthcoming events where highlighting UK expertise, demonstrated by the 1 Community Innovation Survey 2010 2 delivery of a safe and successful Olympic games, can Office for National Statistics ’Graduates in the Labour Market—2012 help secure additional opportunities, these include Enterprise Capital Funds Expo 2017 Astana, the 2017 World Student Games and the Kazakhstani bid for the Winter Olympics Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for in 2022. Business, Innovation and Skills how many firms he Limited Liability: Yorkshire and the Humber estimates to benefit from new investment by Enterprise Capital Funds in (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14, (c) Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2014-15 and (d) 2015-16. [146804] Business, Innovation and Skills how many limited 1185W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1186W liability companies have been declared insolvent in (a) Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency Brigg and Goole constituency and (b) Yorkshire and (HESA) collects and publishes data on students at UK the Humber in each of the last 10 years. [146679] higher education institutions (HEIs). Information on the number of enrolments at English HEIs by level of Michael Fallon: Companies House estimates that the study and domicile for the academic years 2010/11 to number of companies declared insolvent in the Brigg 2011/12 is provided in the table. and Goole constituency and Yorkshire and the Humber Information for the academic year 2012/13 will become in each of the last 10 years is as follows: available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency in January 2014. Briggs and Goole Yorkshire and the constituency Humber Enrolments by level of study and domicile1, English higher education institutions, academic years 2010/11 to 2011/12 2004 3 206 2010/11 2011/12 2005 3 401 Domicile PostgraduateUndergraduate PostgraduateUndergraduate 2006 5 755 India 24,000 6,890 17,405 6,625 2007 18 1,642 China2 29,445 37,295 36,045 40,570 2008 73 2,790 Arab———— 2009 100 3,803 States3 13,665 9,790 13,025 10,315 2010 112 3,106 Brazil 865 325 865 335 2011 136 2,928 South 660 450 625 425 2012 134 2,963 Africa 2013 115 1506 1 Domicile refers to a student’s permanent or home address prior to 1 As at 5 March 2013. entry to their course. These figures are estimates because Companies House’s 2 China includes the Special Administrative Regions of China; Honk data is drawn from postcode areas, which can cross Kong and Macao 3 regional and constituency boundaries. Arab States include 22 member states http://www.unesco.org/new/en/unesco/worldwide/arab-states/ Note: New Businesses: Young People Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded up or down to the nearest five, so components may not sum to totals. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Business, Innovation and Skills how many delivery Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record. partners have received formal offers under the Start-Up Postgraduate Education Loans scheme to date. [146806]
Michael Fallon: Currently 44 delivery partners have Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for signed offer letters to deliver the Start-Up Loans scheme Business, Innovation and Skills how many to date. UK-domiciled first year postgraduates in each subject area were enrolled at English higher education Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for institutions in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he Business, Innovation and Skills by what date he expects will make a statement. [146821] 30,000 loans to be made under the Start-Up Loans scheme. [146807] Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) collects and publishes data on students at UK Michael Fallon: The Start-Up Loans programme is higher education institutions (HEIs). Information on demand-led, so volume of lending will be dependent on the number of UK-domiciled postgraduates entering how many young people see entrepreneurialism as a English HEIs by subject area of study for the academic viable opportunity for employment. years 2010/11 to 2011/12 is provided in the table. Through the Start-Up Loans programme, the Information for the academic year 2012/13 will become Government supports those with that ambition. Currently available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency in its pilot phase, the programme is now consistently in January 2014. funding around 180-200 loans per week. At that rate, UK-domiciled1 postgraduate entrants by subject area2 of study, and subject to budget, 30,000 loans should be achieved English higher education institutions, academic years 2010/11 to sometime in 2015/16. 2011/12 We will continue to monitor demand as the programme Subject area 2010/11 2011/12 rolls out fully from April 2013. Medicine and dentistry 5,280 5,485 Subjects allied to medicine 18,530 20,710 Overseas Students Biological sciences 9,695 9,920 Veterinary science 285 220 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Agriculture and related subjects 610 850 Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) Physical sciences 4,720 4,570 India-domiciled, (b) China-domiciled, (c) Arab states- Mathematical sciences 1,250 1,085 domiciled, (d) Brazil-domiciled and (e) South Africa- Computer science 3,065 2,905 domiciled (i) undergraduate and (ii) postgraduate Engineering and technology 5,935 6,040 students were studying at English higher education Architecture, building and 4,150 4,155 institutions in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) planning 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [146822] Social studies 14,280 14,370 1187W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1188W
UK-domiciled1 postgraduate entrants by subject area2 of study, Staff English higher education institutions, academic years 2010/11 to 2011/12 Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Subject area 2010/11 2011/12 Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff his Law 5,540 5,990 Department employed in each of the past five years; Business and administrative 18,375 17,335 how many such staff were employed in London; how studies many such staff were employed in other regions of Mass communications and 2,745 2,830 England; how many posts moved from London to documentation these regions; and what steps he is taking to move his Languages 4,580 4,535 staff to regional offices. [145689] Historical and philosophical 5,290 5,510 studies Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation Creative arts and design 5,995 6,195 and Skills (BIS) was formed through a machinery of Education 59,650 43,015 government change that occurred in June 2009. The Combined 1,240 885 Department was created by merging the Department Total 171,210 156,600 for Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) 1 Domicile refers to a student’s permanent or home address prior to and the Department for Innovation, Universities and entry to their course. Skills (DIUS). Therefore only information from this 2 Subject information is shown as full person equivalents (FPEs) in date can be used. the table. FPEs are derived by splitting student instances between the different subjects that make up their course aim. The following table shows the number of staff employed Note: in London and other regions over the last five years: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded up or down to the nearest five, so components London Other Total may not sum to totals. Source: December 2009 3,070 691 3,761 Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record. March 2010 3,058 605 3,663 Public Sector: Disclosure of Information March 2011 2,702 579 3,281 March 2012 2,442 587 3,029 February 2013 2,536 606 3,142 Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) funding It is not known now many posts moved from London proposals and (b) expressions of interest from (i) to other regions. To obtain this information would Government departments, (ii) Government agencies result in disproportionate costs. and (iii) local authorities have been made to the Data The Department is not considering relocating staff Strategy Board Breakthrough Fund to date. [146506] out of central London in the short to medium term. BIS is reducing the number of buildings leased by the Matthew Hancock: Details of the number of funding Department and its partner organisations across the proposals and expressions of interest received for the country and is on course to save £84 million by March Data Strategy Board Breakthrough Fund since it was 2015. We constantly look at our property portfolio to announced on 12 December 2012 are provided in the ensure that all buildings are representing value for money. following table:
Number of Number of funding expressions of FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE proposals interest received received Bahamas
Government Departments 0 3 David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Government agencies 0 2 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Local authorities (including the 512representations he has received from the Bahamian Local Government Association) Government about reopening the UK visa mission. [146351] Regional Growth Fund Mark Simmonds: The UK Border Agency has responsibility for issuing UK visas overseas. However I Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for can confirm that the Secretary of State for Foreign and Business, Innovation and Skills how many individual Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member awards from Round 2 of the Regional Growth Fund for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) has to date not have not yet drawn down funds; and what the received any representations from the Bahamian monetary value is of each such award. [146803] Government about reopening the UK visa mission in the Bahamas. Michael Fallon: 133 Round 2 awards for a total of £726.6 million have been finalised. Payments totalling Bahrain £358 million have been made in support of 79 bids. The remaining 54 awards will be drawn between now and Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign March 2015 when they have achieved the necessary and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has investment and employment payment triggers specified had with his Bahraini counterpart on international in the offer letter. legal protections against statelessness. [146206] 1189W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1190W
Alistair Burt: I discussed developments in Bahrain Mr Swire: According to available records, officials with the Bahraini Foreign Minister on 18 February from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have discussed 2013, and the Deputy Prime Minister on 20 February Burma with representatives from Shell at least five 2013. times since May 2010. We have made clear to the Bahraini Government our Since the suspension of EU sanctions in April 2012, view that that revocation of citizenship which leaves the British Government has made a commitment to individuals stateless is a negative step, and ultimately a promoting responsible trade and investment in support barrier towards reconciliation. of Burma’s democratic reform process. The British The UK’s position is set out in Section 40 of the Government urges all UK companies entering Burma British Nationality Act 1981 which allows the Secretary to abide by international standards of corporate governance of State to deprive a person of citizenship status, if she and social and environmental responsibility. In particular, is satisfied that deprivation is conducive to the public this means adhering to the Organisation for Economic good and where in doing so would not leave that person Co-operation and Development’s Guidelines for stateless. Multinational Enterprises, and the UN’s Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for has made to his Bahraini counterpart on the conviction Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he and imprisonment of Abdulhadi al-Khawaja, Ebrahim has received on how many child soldiers remain in the Sharif and 11 other activists and human rights Burmese army. [146310] defenders. [146238] Mr Swire: The British Government notes the recent Alistair Burt: Mr Abdulhadi al-Khawaja, Mr Ebrahim report by Child Soldiers International, published in Sharif and 11 other activists have been convicted of February 2013, which estimates that there are 5,000 charges including taking part in illegal gatherings and child soldiers in the Burmese army. However, as the inciting violence to overthrow the Government. We report notes, the numbers in border guard forces and in have consistently urged the authorities to ensure that ethnic armed groups are difficult to estimate due to any charges against them should be based on strong, limited access to these groups. credible evidence that will stand up to scrutiny. In July 2012, the UN and the Burmese Government In January, I expressed my dismay at the decision of announced a joint action plan to eliminate the recruitment the Bahraini Cassation Court to uphold the sentences and use of child soldiers. The British Government of these 13 activists. At the time they were sentenced, welcomed this plan, but noted that implementation was reports which were acknowledged by the Bahrain vital to ensure that the practice of recruiting child Independent Commission of Inquiry suggested that soldiers is eradicated. I raised our concerns with Burmese some had been abused in detention, denied access to Defence Minister, Lt Gen Wai Lwin, during my visit to legal counsel and coerced into confessing. Burma on 12 to 15 December 2012. The appointment I have frequently stressed the need for Bahrain to of a new Defence Attaché to Burma, who was formally meet all its human rights obligations; and we continue accredited on 22 February 2013, will be a further to urge the Government to ensure that civil liberties are opportunity to press the Burmese military to introduce protected, particularly where severe penalties are imposed. and adopt measures which prevent recruitment of underage I spoke to both the Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime soldiers in the future. Minister of Bahrain in February, to reiterate the UK’s views. Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he British Overseas Territories has received on whether there has been a significant increase in confiscation of land from farmers and Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for villagers by the Burmese Government in the last two Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many years; and whether he has made representations on this Government Ministers have visited one or more of the issue to his Burmese counterpart. [146357] UK Overseas Territories in the life of this Parliament. [146331] Mr Swire: We are aware of reports in February of land confiscation in Burma. During his visit to Burma Mark Simmonds: So far in this Parliament, 12 Ministers in February, Mr Tomas Ojea Quintana, the UN Special have visited one or more Overseas Territory, including Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in Burma, Ministers from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, noted the potential for development projects to have a Ministry of Defence, Department for Business Innovation detrimental effect on the human rights of the people of and Skills, the Department for International Development Burma through land confiscation and forced eviction. and the Attorney-General’s Office. Neither the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Burma for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), nor I have to date raised the specific issue of land confiscation with the Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Burmese Government. But since the suspension of EU Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many sanctions in April 2012, the British Government has meetings officials in his Department have had with encouraged responsible trade and investment in support Shell where Burma was discussed since May 2010. of Burma’s democratic reform process. The British [146309] Government has provided funds to support the 1191W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1192W implementation of the Extractive Industries Transparency not, per se, contrary to UK law. However, we have made Initiative, through which civil society and community clear to G4S our position on the detention of Palestinian leaders engaged in decisions over investments in the prisoners within Israel prisons and our wider concerns natural resources and extractives sectors. about Israel’s treatment of Palestinian detainees to G4S. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for answer to the hon. Member for Walsall South of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions 31 January 2013, Official Report, column 945W, on he has had with the Israeli authorities about night-time Burma, what response has been received from the arrests of children. [146306] Government’s call for an increase in the level of humanitarian aid to affected communities. [146484] Alistair Burt: We have raised with the Israeli authorities our concerns about the treatment of Palestinian child Mr Duncan: I have been asked to reply on behalf of detainees, including the issue of night-time arrests, on a the Department for International Development. number of occasions. During his visit to Israel in November As of January 2013 nearly $36 million of humanitarian 2012, the Attorney-General, my right hon. and learned assistance had been provided to the victims of violence Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), discussed in Rakhine, including the UK’s contribution of £2 million. the issue with his Israeli counterpart, Yehuda Weinstein, The UK continues to call on other donors to increase and other senior interlocutors. Mr Weinstein agreed to their contribution. further talks between UK and British legal experts on the subject. In addition, Foreign and Commonwealth Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Office officials discussed this with a senior Israeli legal Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the delegation in London on 31 January. answer to the hon. Member for Walsall South of 31 January 2013, Official Report, column 945W, on Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Burma, what steps he is taking to ensure that the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent humanitarian assistance being provided by the discussions he has had with the Israeli authorities Government to people displaced in Rakhine State, will about recording of police interviews with children. not be misused. [146485] [146307]
Mr Duncan: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to my answer the Department for International Development. of 11 February 2013, Official Report, column 490W. DFID is funding a consortium of international non- Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for governmental organisations to provide humanitarian Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make assistance to people displaced in Rakhine State. Before representations to the Israeli authorities that agreeing funding, the financial management and audit Palestinian children should not be blindfolded or systems of the consortium was fully assessed to safeguard hooded on arrest. [146308] against improper use of funding. The outcome of DFID’s funding is regularly monitored by our staff in Burma, Alistair Burt: We have raised with the Israeli authorities including by visits to Rakhine. our concerns about the treatment of Palestinian child Israel detainees, including the issues of hooding and shackling, on a number of occasions. We consider such practices Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for to be wrong. During his visit to Israel in November Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he 2012, the Attorney-General, my right hon. and learned plans to take to encourage Israel to stop detention of Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), discussed Palestinian prisoners inside Israel. [146297] our concerns with his Israeli counterpart, YehudaWeinstein, and other senior interlocutors. Mr Weinstein agreed to Alistair Burt: We have regularly raised our concerns further talks between UK and British legal experts on with the Israeli authorities about the treatment of the subject, in addition, Foreign and Commonwealth Palestinian detainees, including their detention within Office officials discussed these with a senior Israeli legal Israel in violation of international humanitarian law. delegation in London on 31 January. These issues have been raised with the Israeli Attorney General, Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Foreign Affairs Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for and Military Advocate General. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Israeli authorities Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for about incorrect origin declarations for goods imported Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans under the EU-Israel Agreement. [146446] to take steps against UK directors of G4 over the transfer of Palestinian prisoners to Israeli persons. Alistair Burt: We have not raised this specific issue [146305] with the Israeli authorities. However, we support the EU’s work with Israel on the review of the postal code Alistair Burt: The Government is aware of G4S’s system for Israeli goods. activities in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. More broadly, we continue to work to take forward International law does not impose obligations on the commitment made by EU Foreign Ministers at the corporations. For a company to operate in the Israeli meeting of the EU Foreign Affairs Council on 14 May settlements or to provide equipment to Israeli prisons is 2012, reaffirmed on 12 December 2012, to fully and 1193W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1194W effectively implement existing EU legislation and the violence against Christians in particular, our approach bilateral arrangements applicable to settlement products. is generally to stress the importance of rule of law and This includes working with the EU to ensure that human rights for all. HMG consistently and unreservedly settlement produce does not enter the EU duty-free condemns torture and we are determined to combat it under the EU-lsrael Association Agreement, and that wherever and whenever it occurs. settlement products are not incorrectly labelled as Israeli produce, in violation of EU consumer protection Middle East regulations. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will taking to encourage the opening of the Rafah crossing take steps to limit the territorial competence of EU for humanitarian supplies. [146455] trade agreements to Israel’s 1967 borders. [146447] Alistair Burt: We have repeatedly urged Israel to ease Alistair Burt: The issue of the territorial competence the restrictions on movement of goods and people to of EU trade agreements with Israel is a subject of active and from Gaza, including humanitarian supplies. We discussion with our EU partners. EU Foreign Ministers, support the ongoing talks in Cairo, brokered by Egypt, in Conclusions agreed on 10 December 2012, expressed which provide an important opportunity to resolve the the EU’s commitment to ensure that, in line with fundamental problems of Gaza, including achieving international law, all agreements between the State of more open access to and from Gaza for people and Israel and the EU must unequivocally and explicitly goods, and an end to the smuggling of weapons. indicate their inapplicability to the territories occupied by Israel in 1967, namely the Golan Heights, the West Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Bank including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what EU Foreign Ministers also reiterated their commitment representations he has made to the Israeli Government to ensure continued, full and effective implementation about civilian casualties in Gaza. [146456] of existing EU legislation and bilateral arrangements applicable to settlement products. We continue to work Alistair Burt: The Government has repeatedly called with EU partners to take this forward. on Israel to observe international humanitarian law and avoid civilian casualties in Gaza, including during the Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for conflict last November. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will review We have also made clear to Israel our long-standing arms export licences to Israel. [146458] concerns about the manner in which the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) polices the buffer zone between Israel and Alistair Burt: The Government has no plans to review Gaza. In the context of recent cases of Palestinian existing arms export licences to Israel at the present civilians killed by the IDF in both Gaza and the West time. The UK maintains a rigorous and transparent Bank, officials from our embassy in Tel Aviv have arms export control system, whereby all applications reiterated our concerns over the IDF’s use of live are assessed on a case by case basis, against the Consolidated ammunition with both the Israeli Ministry of Defence EU and National Arms Export Licensing Criteria. This and National Security Council. includes assessing the risk of exports being used for internal repression, to provoke or prolong armed conflicts, Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for or aggravate existing tensions or conflict in the country Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he of final destination. We apply these criteria rigorously, has made of the number of civilian casualties in the including with respect to Israel. We refuse licences for recent outbreak of hostilities between Israel and Gaza. any arms exports to Israel which we assess would be inconsistent with the criteria. [146457] Libya Alistair Burt: We received regular reports from our missions in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem during the recent Gaza conflict, drawing on local reporting and wide Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign ranging contacts. We understand that 158 Palestinians and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has and six Israelis were killed during the conflict. received of the persecution and torture of Christians in Libya and limitations on the possession and sale of Bibles; and what representations he has made to the Occupied Territories Libyan Government on this matter. [146720] Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: The Government is aware of reports Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what concerning the detention of a number of Christians in representations he has made about the construction of Libya and has also received representations from non- a wall around the village of Al Walaja. [146236] governmental organisations about the issue. The British embassy in Tripoli, along with international partners Alistair Burt: The British Government has repeatedly there, are monitoring developments closely. During my made clear to the Israeli authorities our position that visit to Libya in December, I met the Libyan Justice the separation barrier, if built, should be constructed Minister and personally underlined the importance of on the Green Line and that where it is constructed on respecting human rights, in particular the right to freedom the Palestinian side of that border, it is illegal under of religion or belief. While we do speak out against international law. 1195W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1196W
I visited the village of Al Walaja in January 2011 and Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for saw for myself the effects the construction of the Israeli Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what separation barrier was having on this village. The barrier representations he has made to the Israeli authorities means that the village will lose direct access to its over the construction of a wall around the village of Al agricultural lands, as well as obstructing movement and Walaja. [146299] access for communities in the vicinity, affecting their ability to access schooling and health care facilities. Alistair Burt: The British Government has repeatedly The Department for International Development also made clear to the Israeli authorities our position that provide funding for the Norwegian Refugee Council to the Separation Barrier, if built, should be constructed provide legal support for the communities affected by on the Green Line and that where it is constructed on the route of the barrier. the Palestinian side of that border, it is illegal under international law. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for I visited the village of Al Walaja in January 2011 and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he saw for myself the effects the construction of the Israeli plans to take to encourage Israel to end settlement Separation Barrier was having on this village. The barrier building. [146294] means that the village will lose direct access to its agricultural lands, as well as obstructing movement and Alistair Burt: The UK position on Israeli settlements access for communities in the vicinity, affecting their is clear: they are illegal under international law, an ability to access schooling and health care facilities. obstacle to peace and make a two-state solution, with The Department for International Development also Jerusalem as a shared capital, harder to achieve. We provide funding for the Norwegian Refugee Council to consistently urge the Israeli authorities to cease all provide legal support for the communities affected by settlement building and to remove illegal outposts, as the route of the barrier, including in Al Walaja. required under international law and in fulfilment of Israel’s obligations under the Roadmap. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for representations he has made to the Israeli authorities Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is over the repeated demolitions of the Beit Arabiya taking to encourage Israel to return Palestinian land to house in Anata in the West Bank. [146300] its owners. [146295] Alistair Burt: The Government has raised with the Alistair Burt: We will continue to argue for a just Israeli authorities, including the Coordinator for outcome for all Palestinians affected by illegal settlement Government Authorities in the Territories, our concern construction and the confiscation of land due to the at the repeated demolition of the Beit Arabiya house in Separation Barrier. We regularly make representations the West Bank village of Anata and other similar on these issues to the Government of Israel and will demolitions. continue to do so. The Department for International We consider these demolitions to be contrary to Development also provides funding to the Norwegian Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian Refugee Council to provide legal support to communities law, harmful to the peace process, as well as causing threatened with confiscation. unnecessary suffering to ordinary Palestinians.
Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he plans to take to encourage Israel to move the plans to take to stop house demolitions in East separation barrier back to the Green Line. [146296] Jerusalem and the West Bank. [146301]
Alistair Burt: The Government continues to make Alistair Burt: We have repeatedly made clear to the clear to Israel the UK’s position that the Separation Israeli authorities our serious concern at the increase in Barrier, if built, should only be constructed on the demolitions of Palestinian properties in Area C of the Green Line and that where it is constructed on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem. We view such demolitions Palestinian side of that border, it is illegal under international and evictions as causing unnecessary suffering to ordinary law. Palestinians, as harmful to the peace process and, in all but the most limited circumstances, as contrary to Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for international humanitarian law. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to persuade Israel to stop the demolition of Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Palestinian homes. [146298] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Israeli Government on Alistair Burt: UK Ministers and officials have repeatedly compensation for houses demolished in Gaza. [146302] made clear to the Israeli authorities our serious concern at the increase in demolitions of Palestinian properties Alistair Burt: We have repeatedly emphasised to the in area C of the west bank and in East Jerusalem. We Israeli authorities the need to abide by its obligations view such demolitions and evictions as causing unnecessary under international humanitarian law with respect to suffering to ordinary Palestinians, as harmful to the Gaza, including during the recent Gaza conflict in peace process and, in all but the most limited circumstances, November 2012. We have not specifically discussed the as contrary to international humanitarian law. issue of compensation. 1197W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1198W
Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he has made of the number of houses demolished in the plans to take to stop house demolitions in East occupied West Bank since 1967. [146303] Jerusalem and the west bank. [146370]
Alistair Burt: According to the Israeli Committee Alistair Burt: We have repeatedly made clear to the against House Demolitions, approximately 27,000 Israeli authorities our serious concern at the increase in Palestinian homes and other structures have been demolitions of Palestinian properties in area C of the demolished since 1967 in the Occupied Palestinian west bank and in East Jerusalem. We view such demolitions Territories. and evictions as causing unnecessary suffering to ordinary We have repeatedly made clear to the Israeli authorities Palestinians, as harmful to the peace process and, in all our serious concern at demolitions of Palestinian properties but the most limited circumstances, as contrary to in Area C of the West Bank and in East Jerusalem. We international humanitarian law. view such demolitions and evictions as causing unnecessary suffering to ordinary Palestinians, as harmful to the Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for peace process and, in all but the most limited circumstances, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will as contrary to international humanitarian law. commission research on the legality of importing goods produced in Israeli settlements in the Occupied Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Palestinian Territories to the UK. [146442] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he plans to take in response to demolitions in Silwan in Alistair Burt: We have no plans to commission research East Jerusalem. [146304] on the importing of produce from Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories to the UK. Alistair Burt: We have raised our concerns about the We continue to work to take forward the commitment threatened and actual demolition of Palestinian buildings made by EU Foreign Ministers at the meeting of the in Silwan, East Jerusalem, with the Israeli Ministry of EU Foreign Affairs Council on 14 May 2012, reaffirmed Interior, the Israeli ambassador in London and the on 12 December 2012, to fully and effectively implement Municipality of Jerusalem. We are urging Israel to existing EU legislation and the bilateral arrangements desist from the demolitions and evictions, which we applicable to settlement products. There are, however, consider to be contrary to Israel’s obligations under no plans to introduce domestic or European legislation international humanitarian law; harmful to the peace to ban the import of settlement products. process; as well as causing unnecessary suffering to ordinary Palestinians. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he he has made of the Irish Government’s call for an has made of the number of houses demolished in the EU-wide ban on imports from Israeli settlements. occupied west bank since 1967. [146366] [146443]
Alistair Burt: According to the Israeli Committee Alistair Burt: The issue of settlement produce is a against House Demolitions approximately 27,000 subject of active discussion with the European Commission Palestinian homes and other structures have been and our EU partners. We continue to work to take demolished since 1967 in the Occupied Palestinian forward the commitment made by EU Foreign Ministers Territories. at the meeting of the EU Foreign Affairs Council on 14 We have repeatedly made clear to the Israeli authorities May 2012 to fully and effectively implement existing our serious concern at demolitions of Palestinian properties EU legislation and the bilateral arrangements applicable in area C of the west bank and in East Jerusalem. We to settlement products. This includes working with the view such demolitions and evictions as causing unnecessary EU to ensure that settlement produce does not enter the suffering to ordinary Palestinians, as harmful to the EU duty-free under the EU-Israel Association Agreement, peace process and, in all but the most limited circumstances, and that settlement products are not incorrectly labelled as contrary to international humanitarian law. as Israeli produce, in violation of EU consumer protection regulations. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for There are, however, currently no plans for EU or Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he domestic legislation to ban the import of settlement plans to take in response to demolitions in Silwan in products. East Jerusalem. [146367] Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: We have raised our concerns about the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether UK threatened and actual demolition of Palestinian buildings missions in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem purchase settlement in Silwan, East Jerusalem, with the Israeli Ministry of goods. [146444] Interior, the Israeli ambassador in London and the Municipality of Jerusalem. Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office We are urging Israel to desist from the demolitions and its posts are obliged to follow UK and EU guidelines and evictions, which we consider to be contrary to when purchasing goods and services from suppliers. Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian These guidelines do not currently differentiate between law, harmful to the peace process, as well as causing products emanating from Israel or from the Occupied unnecessary suffering to ordinary Palestinians. Palestinian Territories. 1199W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1200W
Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for We will continue to make our concerns about settlements, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what legal advice including planning for the E1 area, clear to the Israeli he has sought on whether trade with Israeli settlements authorities. in the Occupied Palestinian Territories breaches the UK’s obligation under international law. [146445] Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what Alistair Burt: I am not able to comment on legal assessment he has made of the announcement that advice to Ministers. houses will be built between Jerusalem and Bethlehem However, it is the Government’s long-standing view in Gilo; [146452] that settlements are illegal under international law. We (2) what assessment he has made of the repeatedly call on Israel to abide by its obligations announcement that houses will be built between under international law and regularly raise our profound Jerusalem and Bethlehem in Givat Hamatos. [146453] concerns about Israel’s settlement policy. We will continue to press the next Israeli Government to cease all settlement Alistair Burt: The UK’s position on Israeli settlements activity. is clear: they are illegal under international law, an obstacle to peace and make a two-state solution, with Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Jerusalem as a shared capital, harder to achieve. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what advice he The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth gives to tour operators about payments to hotels and Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond bus operators in illegal Israeli settlements. [146449] (Yorks) (Mr Hague), and I issued statements in December 2012 condemning approvals for plans to build 1,500 Alistair Burt: Our position on Israeli settlements is housing units in the East Jerusalem neighbourhood of clear: they are illegal under international law and are Ramat Shlomo, over 3,150 units in Givaat Hamatos undermining the possibility of a two state solution to and 1,242 units in Mordot Gilo South, as well as the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. decision to upgrade Ariel college to university status, thereby creating the first university in a settlement We have not been approached for advice by any illegal under international law. British company operating tours in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories that include Israeli settlements. We have called on the Israeli authorities to urgently reverse these decisions and take no further steps aimed at expanding or entrenching settlement activity. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make representations to the European Commission to Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for publish the names of companies mis-stating the origin Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment of goods from illegal Israeli settlements. [146450] he has made of the announcement that houses will be built between Jerusalem and Ramallah in Ramat Shlomo. [146454] Alistair Burt: We continue to work to take forward the commitment made by EU Foreign Ministers at the Alistair Burt: The UK’s position on Israeli settlements meeting of the EU Foreign Affairs Council on 14 May is clear: they are illegal under international law, an 2012, reaffirmed on 10 December 2012, to fully and obstacle to peace and make a two-state solution, with effectively implement existing EU legislation and the Jerusalem as a shared capital, harder to achieve. bilateral arrangements applicable to settlement products. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth This includes working to ensure that settlement produce Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond does not enter the EU duty-free under the EU-Israel (Yorks) (Mr Hague) and I issued statements in December Association Agreement, and that settlement products 2012 condemning approvals for plans to build 1,500 are not incorrectly labelled as Israeli produce, in violation housing units in the East Jerusalem neighbourhood of of EU consumer protection regulations. We will continue Ramat Shlomo, over 3,150 units in Givaat Hamatos to work with the EU and European Commission in this and 1,242 units in Mordot Gilo South, as well as the regard. However, we do not have plans to make decision to upgrade Ariel College to university status, representations on this specific issue at present. thereby creating the first university in a settlement illegal under international law. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment We have called on the Israeli authorities to urgently he has made of whether settlement building by Israel in reverse these decisions and take no further steps aimed planning area E1 is compatible with the two-state at expanding or entrenching settlement activity. solution. [146451] Palestinians Alistair Burt: We condemned the Israeli Government’s recent decision to unfreeze planning in the area known Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for as E1. Settlements are illegal under international law, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is and this plan in particular has the potential to alter the taking to ensure that UK companies conform to the situation on the ground on a scale that threatens the International Court of Justice’s ruling that the UK is viability of a two state solution. I formally summoned under an obligation not to render aid or assistance in the Israeli ambassador to the Foreign and Commonwealth maintaining the situation created by the construction Office on 3 December, to make clear the depth of our of the security barrier inside Palestine’s borders. concerns. [146448] 1201W Written Answers7 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 1202W
Alistair Burt: The UK position on the Separation in Southern Kordofan. Blue Nile and Darfur. Supporting Barrier is clear: if Israel wished to build the barrier, it efforts to end these conflicts is central to our policy in should have been built on the 1967 border and where it Sudan, and we are working closely with the African is constructed on the Palestinian side of that border, it Union, and within the UN Security Council to ensure a is illegal under international law. The International united international effort to this end. Court of Justice’s ruling, which is an advisory opinion In particular, we are urging the Government of Sudan and therefore is not legally binding, concluded that the and the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North to construction of the Separation Barrier along its chosen enter into political talks without preconditions, with route, and its associated regime, and the settlement the aim of agreeing an immediate cessation of hostilities, breach Israel’s obligations under international law. We and full, independent humanitarian access to all civilians agree with this conclusion and make our position on the in Southern Kordofan and Blue Nile. In Darfur, we are Separation Barrier known to any companies or individuals pressing the Government of Sudan to implement all its who request our advice. commitments in the Doha Document for Peace in Darfur, signed in 2011, which we see as a basis for reaching a Sudan durable, just, comprehensive and inclusive solution to the ongoing conflict. We are urging other armed groups Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign to enter into the peace process. and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to We will also continue to encourage the Government end violence in Sudan. [146511] of Sudan to start a process of national reform, which takes into account the needs and aspirations of all of Mark Simmonds: The ongoing conflicts in Sudan the people living within its borders, within an open and continue to cause great suffering to the civilians, particularly democratic framework. 11MC Ministerial Corrections7 MARCH 2013 Ministerial Corrections 12MC
their property that they were otherwise planning (“Energy Ministerial Correction SavingTrust,Exploratory Research into Building Regulations in relation to the Green Deal”, page 37). Thursday 7 March 2013 [Official Report, 13 December 2012, Vol. 555, c. 42-3WS.] Letter of correction from Eric Pickles: An error has been identified in a paragraph in the COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Written Ministerial Statement on Minor Consequential Improvements on 13 December 2012. The error relates Minor Consequential Improvements to a citation in the Statement. The following is an extract from the Written Ministerial The correct paragraph should have read: Statement presented by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member The Secretary of State for Communities and Local for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles) on 13 December Government (Mr Eric Pickles): The Energy Saving Trust 2012. research found that consequential improvements, even with green deal finance in place, would put off 38% of The Secretary of State for Communities and Local small and medium firms and 34% of households from Government (Mr Eric Pickles): The Energy Saving Trust going ahead with building work on their property that research found that consequential improvements, even they were otherwise planning (“Energy Saving Trust, with green deal finance in place, would put off 38% of Exploratory Research into Building Regulations in relation households from going ahead with building work on to the Green Deal”, pages 37 and 26).
ORAL ANSWERS
Thursday 7 March 2013
Col. No. Col. No. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 1119 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Archbishop of Canterbury...... 1119 continued Charitable Work...... 1120 Extreme Weather...... 1102 Kettering Street Pastors ...... 1119 Fish Discards ...... 1110 King Richard III (Reburial) ...... 1116 Flood Defences...... 1101 Pilgrimage of Prayer (Canterbury) ...... 1121 Flood Insurance...... 1109 Women Bishops ...... 1121 Food Adulteration ...... 1105 Food Adulteration ...... 1107 ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 1115 Puppy Farms...... 1103 Individual Voter Registration...... 1115 Rural Economy...... 1099 Police and Crime Commissioner Elections...... 1117 Topical Questions ...... 1111 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 1099 PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 1118 EU Regulation ...... 1104 National Audit Office...... 1118 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS
Thursday 7 March 2013
Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 72WS AFFAIRS...... 69WS State Opening of Parliament...... 72WS OFWAT (Repayable Cash Advance) ...... 70WS Single Payment Scheme...... 69WS TRANSPORT ...... 72WS EU Transport Council ...... 72WS Road Safety ...... 73WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 70WS TREASURY ...... 69WS Foreign Affairs and General Affairs Councils...... 70WS Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill ...... 69WS Loan to Ireland...... 69WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 72WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 74WS Violence Against Women and Girls Action Plan Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer 2013 ...... 72WS Affairs Council ...... 74WS PETITION
Thursday 7 March 2013
Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 7P Extension of the Tyne and Wear Metro to Washington...... 7P WRITTEN ANSWERS
Thursday 7 March 2013
Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 1107W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Contempt of Court: Social Networking...... 1107W Enterprise Capital Funds ...... 1183W Crown Prosecution Service...... 1107W EU Grants and Loans...... 1184W Crown Prosecution Service: West Midlands ...... 1108W Housework...... 1184W Serious Fraud Office: Legal Costs...... 1109W Kazakhstan...... 1184W Witnesses ...... 1109W Limited Liability: Yorkshire and the Humber ...... 1184W New Businesses: Young People ...... 1185W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1179W Overseas Students ...... 1185W Apprentices...... 1179W Postgraduate Education ...... 1186W Apprentices: Kingston upon Hull ...... 1180W Public Sector: Disclosure of Information...... 1187W British Antarctic Survey...... 1181W Regional Growth Fund ...... 1187W Consumer Information ...... 1181W Staff ...... 1188W Consumers: Expenditure...... 1181W Engineering...... 1182W Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 1139W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Blood ...... 1139W continued Employment ...... 1139W Horses: Animal Welfare ...... 1148W ICT ...... 1140W Livestock: Transport ...... 1149W Older Workers: Kingston Upon Hull ...... 1140W Reptiles: Imports...... 1149W Public Appointments ...... 1141W Waste Infrastructure Credits ...... 1145W Public Consultation ...... 1142W Water Companies...... 1150W Third Sector...... 1142W Unemployment: Wolverhampton...... 1142W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1188W Bahamas ...... 1188W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 1113W Bahrain ...... 1188W Pilgrimage of Prayer: Canterbury ...... 1113W British Overseas Territories...... 1189W Women Bishops ...... 1113W Burma...... 1189W Israel...... 1191W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1120W Libya...... 1193W Council Tax ...... 1120W Middle East ...... 1194W Fire Services...... 1121W Occupied Territories...... 1194W Local Government Finance ...... 1121W Palestinians ...... 1200W Sudan...... 1201W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1150W Arts and Culture ...... 1150W HEALTH...... 1154W Broadband ...... 1151W Cardiovascular System: Diseases ...... 1154W Culture, Practices and Ethics of the Press Inquiry . 1152W Care Quality Commission...... 1154W Newcastle Upon Tyne ...... 1152W Dementia ...... 1155W Rugby: Females...... 1152W Fertility ...... 1155W Sports: Females...... 1153W Health...... 1156W Tourism...... 1153W Hospital Beds: Greater London ...... 1156W Medicine: Education...... 1163W DEFENCE...... 1124W Mental Health Services: Restraint Techniques ...... 1163W Afghanistan ...... 1124W NHS: Drugs...... 1163W Armed Forces: Dogs ...... 1124W NHS: Standards...... 1164W Armed Forces: Homosexuality...... 1126W Obesity...... 1165W Armed Forces: Horses...... 1125W Organs: Donors ...... 1166W Armed Forces: Recruitment ...... 1127W Paramedical Staff...... 1167W Armed Forces: Retirement ...... 1127W Public Health England...... 1168W Medals ...... 1127W Public Opinion...... 1169W Military Bases: USA ...... 1128W School Milk ...... 1169W Military Police ...... 1128W Sexually Transmitted Infections ...... 1169W Police: Dogs ...... 1128W Streptococcus...... 1170W Procurement...... 1128W Tobacco: Retail Trade ...... 1171W Radioactive Materials ...... 1129W Reserve Forces: Greater London...... 1129W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1172W UK Polar Medal Assessment Committee...... 1130W Asylum: Greater London...... 1172W Veterans: Advisory Services ...... 1130W Confiscation Orders ...... 1172W Written Questions ...... 1131W Deportation: Offenders...... 1172W Immigration Controls ...... 1173W EDUCATION...... 1143W Immigration: Croydon ...... 1174W Academies Capital Maintenance Fund ...... 1143W Immigration: Married People...... 1174W Schools: Armed Forces ...... 1143W John Stewart ...... 1175W Schools: Playing Fields ...... 1144W Sexual Offences: Southwark...... 1175W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1175W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1122W Electricity...... 1122W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 1107W Energy: Billing ...... 1122W House of Commons Chamber...... 1107W Fuel Cells...... 1122W Fuel Poverty: Rural Areas...... 1122W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1176W Radioactive Waste Management Committee...... 1123W Developing Countries: Water ...... 1176W Tidal Power...... 1123W Overseas Aid...... 1176W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 1124W JUSTICE...... 1131W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Alcoholic Drinks...... 1131W AFFAIRS...... 1145W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 1132W Beef Products...... 1145W Council Tax: Non-payment...... 1132W Bottles: Recycling...... 1146W Domestic Violence ...... 1132W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 1147W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 1133W Dangerous Dogs ...... 1147W National Archives ...... 1133W Flood Insurance...... 1146W Offences against Children ...... 1134W Food: Origin Marking...... 1147W Prisons: Television ...... 1135W Glass: Recycling...... 1148W Prisons: Visits...... 1135W Horse Meat...... 1148W Probation ...... 1136W Horsemeat...... 1145W Reoffenders: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 1136W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TREASURY—continued Staff ...... 1137W Exhaust Emissions: Motor Vehicles ...... 1177W Travel ...... 1137W Motor Vehicles...... 1178W Youth Custody...... 1138W Pay Methods...... 1178W Trade Competitiveness ...... 1178W TRANSPORT ...... 1109W Welfare Tax Credits...... 1179W Crossrail Line: Stansted Airport ...... 1109W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1114W Croydon Tramlink...... 1110W Asbestos...... 1114W Driving Under Influence: Drugs ...... 1110W Electronic Government ...... 1114W Great Western Railway Line...... 1111W Employers’ Liability...... 1115W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 1111W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 1115W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 1112W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 1116W Sentencing...... 1113W Pension Funds ...... 1116W Pensions...... 1117W TREASURY ...... 1177W State Retirement Pensions...... 1118W Aggregates Levy: Northern Ireland...... 1177W State Retirement Pensions: Females ...... 1118W Alcoholic Drinks: Prices ...... 1177W Universal Credit...... 1119W Corporation Tax: Croydon...... 1177W Work Programme...... 1119W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION
Thursday 7 March 2013
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not later than Thursday 14 March 2013
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CONTENTS
Thursday 7 March 2013
Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1099] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Church Commissioners Speaker’s Electoral Commission Committee Public Accounts Commission
Business of the House [Col. 1123] Statement—(Mr Lansley)
UK’s Development Work (Girls and Women) [Col. 1142] Statement—(Justine Greening)
Supply and Appropriation (Anticipations and Adjustments) Bill [Col. 1158] Read a Second and Third time and passed
Justice and Security Bill [Lords] [Col. 1159] As amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed
Child Support Agency [Col. 1231] Debate on motion for Adjournment
Westminster Hall Scottish Referendum (Trident) [Col. 317WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment
Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 69WS]
Petition [Col. 7P] Observations
Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1107W] [see index inside back page]
Ministerial Correction [Col. 11MC]