BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION RADIO 4

TRANSCRIPT OF “FILE ON 4” – “NORTHERN IRELAND: A BITTER LEGACY”

CURRENT AFFAIRS GROUP

TRANSMISSION: Tuesday 10th June 2014 2000 - 2040 REPEAT: Sunday 15th June 2014 1700 - 1740

REPORTER: Chris Buckler PRODUCER: David Lewis EDITOR: David Ross

PROGRAMME NUMBER: PMR423/14VQ5522 - 1 -

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

“FILE ON 4”

Transmission: Tuesday 10th June 2014 Repeat: Sunday 15th June 2014

Producer: David Lewis Reporter: Chris Buckler Editor: David Ross

ACTUALITY OF BIRDSONG

GEORGE: As you’ll see, a number of graves that are here, and all young people. Every time you went out, you didn’t know whether you were going to return again or not.

BUCKLER: In cemeteries across Northern Ireland, there are headstones that honour loved ones, killed during years of conflict. The time that became known as left many families grieving and hundreds of people injured.

BUNTING: On that day I didn’t only nearly lost my life, I lost my business, I lost my home, I lost everything. All I was doing was going about my work and nobody cares, nobody cares.

BUCKLER: The signing of the Good Friday Agreement was seen as a major turning point in securing peace. But the terms of it – including the release of paramilitary prisoners - were difficult for some victims to accept. Now there are new questions about other deals that were done to secure political progress, including the granting of royal pardons. The Northern Ireland Secretary has admitted to File on 4 that the Royal Prerogative of Mercy was used in some terrorism-related cases as far back as the 1980s. - 2 -

WOMAN: It was used in cases where people might be released early on compassionate grounds. It was also used, in some instances, in exchange for information provided to assist the authorities in prosecuting other people.

BUCKLER: Unionists are angry about what they’ve called secret deals. After yet more revelations, are Northern Ireland’s politicians capable of finding a way to deal with the past?

SIGNATURE TUNE

ACTUALITY IN CAR

BUCKLER: I’m just driving down ’s Donegal Road, and you can tell from kerbstones, which are painted red, white and blue, and from all the union flags flying that this is a Protestant, a Loyalist, a Unionist area. And if we just cross over the next roundabout, you’ll get to an area which is Nationalist Republican. There’ll you see Irish tri- colours flying. They want to make it visible that there is a difference. Here, in working class areas, the divisions are real and views remain deeply, deeply entrenched.

WARD: There has been occasions when this church has been attacked when Mass was on and funerals coming out, and people here have reacted to that.

BUCKLER: In East Belfast, paint marks are the scars left by recent attacks on St Matthews Catholic Church. The Short Strand is an area surrounded by so-called peace walls – huge barriers built in flashpoint areas to separate nationalist and loyalist housing estates and to try to prevent trouble. Northern Ireland’s First and Deputy First Minister say they’re committed to building a shared future without peace walls. They want all of them removed within a decade. But here at St Matthew’s, a new one has just gone up. If we just take a look at this big structure here, they call it a peace curtain rather than a peace wall, but it’s a big metal structure. And how high would you say it was?

WARD: It’s between 25 and 30 feet high and it stretches for about 30 yards. - 3 -

BUCKLER: Willy Ward is a church worker here. And we can see houses just behind there. So this is towering over houses.

WARD: Yes. That was to prevent petrol bombs and missiles being thrown at these houses, and it has actually worked, to a certain extent. I live in this area, talking to the people and the people who live beside the walls here, there’s no chance of these walls being taken down, and I’ll tell you, in my lifetime.

BUCKLER: In your lifetime?

WARD: I cannot see those walls being taken down in my lifetime. Yes, we had this strategy from the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, saying that they wanted to take down all the peace walls in Northern Ireland within ten years. Well, you just tell them to come and live in the Short Strand, we’ll see whether the people want the walls taken down. They don’t live here, they don’t have to put up with this. They’re living in their ivory towers – we’re not. There has been a massive reduction in violence. There’s no daily bombings or shootings and things like that.

BUCKLER: That’s a massive step, isn’t it?

WARD: Yes, it is a massive step, but this is the next part to have to tackle.

BUCKLER: But those bombings and shootings can’t be forgotten, not least by people who were caught in attacks at a time of dreadful conflict.

EXTRACT FROM NEWS REPORT

REPORTER: Yet another attack on a taxi driver, this time by the IRA. Terrorists had attached a booby trap device underneath his Ford Sierra. At ten to eight on his first journey of the day, it exploded, taking a female passenger ….

- 4 -

BUNTING: I seen this almighty flash coming out of my dash. All I remember from that was that my left leg getting blew off out the car first, and my other leg, it was, I mean, half of its away, half my thigh, and was blew across the street. I said to myself, ‘I’m going to die here.’

BUCKLER: Alex Bunting is disabled and in constant pain as a result of a bomb being placed under his car. The victim of mistaken identity – and a victim of the Troubles. He has been campaigning along with others for a pension for anyone seriously injured.

BUNTING: On that day I didn’t only nearly lost my life, I lost my business, I lost my home, I lost everything. My wife had to live on £37 a week. And I’m now 60 years of age and I am entitled to live on £108 a week ESA. Is that fair? Is that fair? And I’m living in poverty. Did I deserve this? No, I didn’t – in any way, shape nor form. All I was doing was going about my work, but I’m now left the way I am left and nobody cares, nobody cares. And all I am asking is justice and fairness in a sense that do you think it’s right that I and people like me are left without any form of pension? I’m talking about the most severely injured people in Northern Ireland through this conflict or Troubles, whatever way you want to look at it.

BUCKLER: The idea for compensation or a pension for victims is anything but new. It’s been suggested many times. But it’s a controversial idea. And at the centre of that row is the definition of a victim. It’s thought injured paramilitaries would be entitled to apply for a pension under any such scheme. And that’s why unionists have blocked the proposal – put forward most recently by the Victims Commissioner, Kathryn Stone. She was appointed by Stormont to represent the many differing views of people affected by years of trouble.

STONE: We need to think very carefully about how we afford dignity to a relatively small number of people who have been injured during the troubles here. Since I’ve been here, nobody, but nobody has been able to tell me how many of that four or five hundred people were injured at their own hand. There is something wrong for me about somebody who has lost both legs in a bomb blast sitting at home during the winter, worrying about whether or not they’ve got enough money to buy oil to keep their home warm. I think, as a society, there is a moral imperative to support that group of people, and while ever these - 5 -

STONE cont: debates rumble on about who is eligible and who is not eligible, that group of people are dying while they wait for politicians to come to some decision about who is going to be afforded this pension or not.

BUCKLER: Not all scars are physical. Hurt and harm is also obvious among those who lost loved ones.

ACTUALITY AT GRAVEYARD

TREVOR: We’re looking at three graves in a row. Well, when we say that during the Troubles we always wondered who was next, I think this stretch bears out that particular fear that someone was always next.

BUCKLER: As you enter Castlederg, there’s a small graveyard that stands testament to years of loss. This small town in County Tyrone lies just next to the Irish border. And in the decades of violence that became known as Northern Ireland’s Troubles, it could feel like the frontline - a place where murder was all too common, and the evidence of that surrounds you here.

TREVOR: Thomas Loughlin, who lies before us, was murdered in front of his wife and daughter. Thomas had been married just a couple of years previously and his best man is buried beside him. And his wife’s sister, the bridesmaid at the event, is buried behind him. And they were murdered by the Provisional IRA within a matter of months of one another. Thomas was murdered in March 1984 and Norman McKinley and Heather Kerrigan were murdered in the same bomb blast in July 1984. So in a small town like this, if you start to join up the stories, you can begin to get a sense of the impact that the Troubles had on this part of the world, and you can get an idea perhaps as to why it is so hard to say, ‘Draw a line in the past, move on.’

BUCKLER: The graveyard overlooks Castlederg and the past hangs over this town. Many families still feel grief. To try to give them a final chance to learn more about how their relatives died, an organisation was set up to re-examine all of the deaths of the Troubles. The Historical Enquiries Team reports to Northern Ireland’s Chief Constable. And if its investigators uncover any new information then that could lead to a fresh police - 6 -

BUCKLER cont: investigation being opened – and potentially even prosecutions. Among the cases it reviewed was the IRA murder of Lexie Cummings.

GILFILLIN: He was working in Fultons menswear shop in Strabane and he came out of the shop at lunchtime to go and have his lunch and he was gunned down as he got into his little car. Innocent. He was only doing a day’s work. It’s always there, it’s always in your mind.

BUCKLER: No one has ever been convicted of his murder?

GILFILLIN: No one has ever been convicted.

BUCKLER: In Castlederg I met Shelly Gilfillen. Her uncle, Lexie Cummings, was shot dead in 1982. Although no one was ever found guilty of the murder, the police did have a suspect – and there was an attempt to prosecute William Gerard McMonagle.

GILFILLEN: On two separate occasions there was a technicality in the court and that was a countersigning of some form. And the first time he was let out on a technicality, he was re-arrested again on the steps of the High Court in Belfast. He was then returned to court again, and again another technicality was found and he was then let out yet again. But at this stage he jumped on the back of a motorbike and he went on the run to Southern Ireland. The only success I have had is finding out myself that he actually became Mayor of Letterkenny in County Donegal - that was a bit of a turn with a knife really in your stomach.

BUCKLER: The Historical Enquiries Team report lists the evidence against William Gerard McMonagle, who is now a Sinn Fein councillor in Letterkenny. It’s both forensic and circumstantial. Although the HET’s review makes clear that some witnesses couldn’t be traced and that some exhibits had gone missing. And it states that ten years ago, prosecutors reviewed the information available and concluded that there was no longer a reasonable prospect of convicting him. The report also reveals that Mr McMonagle was given a so-called ‘on the run’ letter. They were documents given to paramilitary suspects after a negotiation between the British Government and Sinn Fein. The Government insists that they were statements of fact – simply informing someone that they were not wanted by any police force in the UK. But an ‘on the run’ letter did stop a major trial from taking place. - 7 -

EXTRACT FROM NEWS REPORT

NEWSREADER: Northern Ireland is facing a deepening political crisis caused by the collapse of the case against a man charged with killing four soldiers in an IRA attack in Hyde Park in London ….

BUCKLER: John Downey was the main suspect in the notorious Hyde Park bombing in which four soldiers were killed. He was given a letter of assurance by mistake – however it prevented him being prosecuted because the court ruled that the Government’s promise had to be upheld. And while the review of Lexie Cummings’ murder specifically mentions the ‘on the run’ scheme, it was only when the Downey case made the headlines that Shelly Gilfillen understood what the phrase actually meant.

GILFILLEN: When I got this report in 2010, I couldn’t quite understand what this meant. I just couldn’t believe that in this day and age someone could just no longer be wanted for murder. I can’t believe the Government actually done this. He’s the main suspect in the murder and when you read the report it is a lot of detailed information in the forensics, so all of a sudden this man is no longer wanted. I can’t understand how this has happened.

BUCKLER: We did ask Councillor McMonagle for an interview, however he refused the request. Instead he told us to speak to his party, Sinn Fein. is one of its members in the Northern Ireland Assembly. He’s also the man who negotiated the ‘on the run’ letters.

KELLY: I don’t know enough about Gerry McMonagle’s case, right? He certainly has not been convicted.

BUCKLER: I can show you the HET document.

KELLY: A HET report is precisely that, it is a review. It is not an investigation, right? If the HET had found anything during their review which they thought could be prosecuted, it was handed immediately over to the PSNI and the PSNI took that forward. Whether the HET knew about letters or didn’t know about letters, it was irrelevant. If you’re going to judge somebody, if you’re going to sit here on a megaphone and attack - 8 -

KELLY cont: somebody, be very sure that you’re talking about that level of evidence, right? If that level of evidence existed, the HET immediately … immediately gave it over to the PSNI.

BUCKLER: But they’re reviewing evidence that is already with the police service, so they effectively are saying, ‘Listen, we’re looking at the evidence here.’ A case had already been set out …

KELLY: But with respect ….

BUCKLER: … before ‘on the run’ letters had been handed out.

KELLY: With respect, you can come to me after doing a journalistic gathering of evidence investigation and say to me that A, B, C and D were involved and such and such, okay? And what my answer to you would be is, ‘Bring it to court, give it to the police.’ I will not be getting involved in any case that you present to me here on the basis of the HET, because I certainly will not make a judgement as to whether it was or not. There was an ability to bring those things to the court. Obviously the PSNI decided that there wasn’t enough evidence to bring that to court and that’s where it sits. We shouldn’t go around accusing people of all sorts.

BUCKLER: But the revelations about the ‘on the runs’ inevitably led to unionist anger. They said they knew nothing of what they called a backroom deal between Irish republicans and the British Government. Junior is a Democratic Unionist MP and he sits on a House of Commons Select Committee that’s investigating the ‘on the runs’ scheme.

PAISLEY: It was an absolute and total shock, and what was shocking was not only the content of it, but the fact that there had been such a deliberate attempt to conceal this, and it would have remained concealed if it hadn’t been for a case and a trial which fell apart. I think everyone knew that there was efforts to do things behind closed doors, that there were hidden things of darkness, but to see it emerge in this way almost decades later, I think was just absolutely and utterly appalling. - 9 -

BUCKLER: The truth is though, if you speak to some people, they will say, ‘We all knew something was being done about on the runs.’ Unionists did know something was being done.

PAISLEY: No, that is not true. I think you are absolutely right, however, to say that people knew that there was a discussion point - it was called ‘on the runs’. I can certainly say hand on heart that at no point in the discussions that I led in, in the discussions that I was involved in as an advisor to my father, who then became first Minister - at no point in direct discussions with Tony Blair, with his advisor, with the then Secretaries of State that we met with was ‘on the runs’ put on the agenda by them or by us for us to discuss. And I know why - because it would have been kicked right out into touch.

BUCKLER: So was this a public or private deal? Statements of fact or a guarantee that someone would not be prosecuted? During his time as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Labour’s Peter Hain was involved in overseeing the scheme.

HAIN: I think there’s an attempt to rewrite history by people who’ve been playing politics, and I believe also doing great damage to the emotions of victims by saying that there was some deep scandal here when there wasn’t, when all along what we were seeking to do was perfectly lawfully bring about a peace settlement in Northern Ireland, which is what we achieved. And in the course of that, of course it’s said as if it was some kind of crime to have had side deals. I had a side deal with Ian Paisley and DUP over the appointment of the first Interim Victims Commissioner. I make no apologies for that. It was part of getting us to where we did – which was the settlement. We had negotiations with Sinn Fein in which this ‘on the runs’ matter was addressed. I make no apology for that either, nor do I accept it was secretive or furtive in any way.

BUCKLER: The scheme is under scrutiny, however – with a judge- led review taking place alongside the investigation by a Select Committee at Westminster. And after the mistake in the John Downey case, the Police Service of Northern Ireland is re- examining all of the letters that have been issued. A senior officer has already revealed that they’ve discovered that 95 recipients of ‘on the run’ letters were suspects in a total of almost 300 murders. While the Government has been at pains to say the letters were never intended to give immunity from prosecution, it is now clear that aside from the OTR scheme, royal - 10 -

BUCKLER cont: prerogatives of mercy –which are sometimes referred to as royal pardons - were given to a number of paramilitaries. However, that was not made public and it’s only recently been revealed that in the aftermath of the Good Friday Agreement, pardons were used in sixteen terrorism-related cases. Once again Sinn Fein’s Gerry Kelly was involved in the discussions.

KELLY: In almost any post-conflict situation you will have to deal with prisoners, you will have to deal with exiles, you will have to deal with people on the run, you will have to deal with arms. So we said, ‘Okay, now deal with it,’ and they said, ‘We will deal with it.’ In a certain number of cases they would argue that the only way they could deal with it, I think if it was post-sentence, and for instance there was a number of escapees and in some of those cases – not them all, but in some of those cases that they, you know, their argument was the only way they could deal with it was in royal prerogatives, then okay.

BUCKLER: Should it not be the case that if there are people with royal prerogatives of mercy, that that should be made public? That that list should be put in the public domain?

KELLY: Why?

BUCKLER: Because there are families out there that want to know. There are victims out there.

KELLY: Do you mean that in each individual case that people should be told? And this has been the problem with the past. If you want to treat each individual case as a huge story in the media and for all that that entails, if you believe that that will help the situation, then maybe you have an argument. But do you think it would help the situation?

BUCKLER: File on 4 has learned there were other uses of royal pardons in similar circumstances before the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, although it is impossible to tell how many, because records in the decade leading up to the crucial peace deal have apparently been lost. But the Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers has admitted that even during Margaret Thatcher’s time as Prime Minister, royal prerogatives of mercy were - 11 -

BUCKLER cont: given to paramilitaries – in some cases in return for information or intelligence. But the Secretary of State wouldn’t discuss who did receive them.

VILLIERS: We do need to be careful about disclosing the identities of individuals. We always have to bear in mind the importance of ensuring that we don’t end up revealing information that can jeopardise life and limb. The period for which we don’t have full documentation related to a ten year period under the previous Conservative Government. Prior to that ten year period it may well have been that occasionally the RPM was used in relation to some terrorist cases, but the records have not been retained for 87 to 97.

BUCKLER: But it was used then within the 1980s in terrorist-related cases?

VILLIERS: There were some, yes.

BUCKLER: People are going to be shocked at that, aren’t they?

VILLIERS: Well, it was used in a very, in relation, for example, to cases where people might be released early on compassionate grounds, perhaps if they had terminal illnesses. It was also used in some instances, I understand, in exchange for information provided to assist the authorities in prosecuting other people, again to shorten sentences.

BUCKLER: If they were to be used again in terrorist-related cases, given the concern that’s been raised about them, do you think in future they should be published, going forward?

VILLIERS: We’re looking at that at the moment, and I think there is a case for that. I think that question though is somewhat different to retrospective publication of names from the past.

BUCKLER: Many questions continue to be asked about what was done in the past. And Northern Ireland’s Victims Commissioner, Kathryn Stone, says the recent flurry of accusations and revelations has been very damaging. - 12 -

STONE: When news of these comes out again in a kind of drip, drip way, it erodes the trust and confidence and people once again say, ‘How can we ever believe anything we are told? What else is going to come out? What else is going to be revealed about things that happened here?’

BUCKLER: The royal prerogatives of mercy, they’ve not been published - should they be published?

STONE: Some of them aren’t found, are they? I mean, perhaps they have been tucked away with the Christmas decorations. Who knows? But it is such a serious, serious thing. And you start to move into Donald Rumsfeld territory, don’t you? There are things that we know we don’t know and there are things that we don’t know we don’t know. We don’t know what else there is that is going to be revealed. But what happens is that that creates an atmosphere of there is bound to be other things. If there are allegations on any side of corruption or collusion or backroom deals, then we need to know about them, victims need to know about them. How can they have any confidence that any process will be open and transparent and support their best interests if at some later date something is revealed about which they knew nothing?

BUCKLER: The Historical Enquiries Team was supposed to help that process of revealing the truth. But many families have been frustrated by its work – particularly the relatives of people killed by the army.

ACTUALITY WITH JIM ROWNTREE

ROWNTREE: In 1972 where we are now, it was all Divis flats. The only thing remaining of Divis flats is Divis Tower. It was just beside Divis Tower that the soldiers fired that fatal shot and hit my brother in the head, and he lay in hospital for two days and my mother and father had to watch him in the state that he was in.

BUCKLER: Jim Rowntree’s brother Francis was 11 when he died. He was struck by a rubber bullet fired by a soldier in west Belfast. In the 1970s, deaths involving the Army were investigated by the Royal Military Police. And families felt that process was anything but thorough. - 13 -

ROWNTREE: At the time that he was shot, my mother and my father were completely left in the dark. All they knew was that he was hit by a rubber bullet. The soldier said he fired two baton rounds - the first one hit a lamp and ricocheted. He was hit point blank. Frank was totally innocent and he was not in the crowd. I want a statement from the MOD, British Government in fact, of an apology to give to my mother before she dies. That’s what I want. At the time Frank was stigmatised as being a ratter – an 11 year old child. That’s what he was – a child.

BUCKLER: Decades later, Frank’s death was another to be the subject of a new investigation by the Historical Enquiries Team. But they were concerned and even angered by the way the review was conducted. The Rowntrees’ solicitor, Padraig O’Murray, believes the HET’s detectives missed crucial forensic evidence which he claims contradicts the account given by one of the soldiers. And he says he was able to find an eyewitness when the investigators had failed to do so.

O’MURRAY: In many cases key witnesses, NGOs or lawyers who have traced them or family members who have traced them. In many cases I’ve had to take statements myself or provide independent lawyers to come across and be part of a statement taking process at my own cost. A lot of the HET reports which have had new findings, I think if you examine those closely you’ll find that a lot of the new evidence, the new witness statements have come from NGOs, families or lawyers – that that’s been the drive as opposed to the HET.

BUCKLER: The work of the Historical Enquiries Team is currently suspended after a damning report last year by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary. It concluded that the HET investigated cases where the state was involved with less rigour than others. The Police Service of Northern Ireland said in a statement that it accepted those findings. It also stated that a new command team was in place and that the HET was committed to completing its task. But there is no doubt that its future is in question. Particularly as Northern Ireland’s Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein, is among its harshest critics.

MCGUINNESS: I don’t think they’ve any credibility whatsoever, and I think the damning indictment by the HMAC clearly identified that preferential treatment was given by the HET to those people within the state forces who were accused of killing people, - 14 -

MCGUINNESS cont: particularly within the Nationalist Republican community. If you’re asking for the view of people within that community as to whether or not they would have trust in the HET to continue on with the work that they were involved in in the past, I can tell you from speaking to people in that community, there is absolutely no confidence whatsoever in the HET.

BUCKLER: But if you as Deputy First Minister don’t support it, if you, your party Sinn Fein doesn’t support it, I mean effectively the Historical Enquiries Team is dead in the water then, isn’t it?

MCGUINNESS: Well, I think the Historical Enquiries Team is dead in the water.

BUCKLER: The proposals considered most recently by politicians to address the problems of the past suggested two new bodies, one of which was an organisation that would again re-investigate murders committed during the Troubles. The second was some form of mediation body that would try to find out information about how people were killed – and in some cases even why. But in dealing with what are often called legacy issues, the past is ever-present, and it always has the potential to poison politics here. That’s something that both Ian Paisley Jr and Martin McGuinness are very aware of.

MCGUINNESS: The failure to deal with the past is something that needs to be resolved. I have been on the public record, for example, in our first conversation about the establishment of another national independent truth commission. I have always made it clear, in fact Gerry Adams has also made it clear that we would be prepared to attend such a tribunal. Now the question is would everybody else be prepared to do that? Would the British Army do that? Would the British intelligence services, who were involved in collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries, do that? This isn’t just a challenge for Republicans, this is a challenge for everybody.

BUCKLER: I accept that, but you are also in a position where you are sharing power with unionists, and the truth of what you might say or what Gerry Adams might say might well damage politics here. - 15 -

MCGUINNESS: You’re now presuming that unionist politicians and unionist political parties have themselves played no role in the conflict. You see, everybody here has a past. If we’re all going to make an argument that because somebody has a past, that they have no role in building the future, I think that’s a very flawed argument.

PAISLEY: Whilst it may bear well on some of us to achieve this and some of us to address it, politics gets in the way of an ultimate solution and an ultimate salvation from some of these people, and I think we have to be honest about that. So until the will is there, the way will never be found. It may be that we are years away from getting some of the stuff solved. It may be that we require more time to get it solved and maybe time is going to be not the healer, because people who are bereaved generally know that time is not the healer, but it does give distance and it gives perspective, and maybe that’s what Northern Ireland needs – more perspective that is, and I’m prepared to accept that’s an indictment on politics.

BUCKLER: Given the years of progress, it is a pretty damning and depressing thing to say about your political parties.

PAISLEY: It’s an indictment on politics, but maybe it’s because politics is so close to the Troubles and it’s still so raw.

BUCKLER: There are new attempts to broker some kind of deal. A fresh round of talks is planned and those negotiations will involve all of the parties, currently working together in Government at Stormont. But they continue to clash over issues associated with identity and recent history. And the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Theresa Villiers, knows that finding a compromise acceptable to all is likely to be a challenge.

VILLIERS: Tackling the legacy of the past is one of the most difficult issues that Northern Ireland faces. It is going to be immensely difficult, given the sensitivities here, but I welcome the fact that the party leaders are continuing to work on this, and what is really important is that they need to step up the intensity of that work.

- 16 -

BUCKLER: The truth is, when you go to Stormont and you speak to the Executive, you do get the impression privately that things aren’t good, that relationships are not good, that they’re not finding a way of dealing with the outstanding big issues. If relationships aren’t good there, that means it is very difficult to move it forward.

VILLIERS: Well, certainly there are some big issues that the Executive is grappling with at the moment, which divide opinion across the five parties in the Executive. But Northern Ireland’s political leadership have proved they are capable of reaching an agreement, they’re capable of reaching compromises. I think they could do that again, they have fixed more difficult problems than these in the past.

ACTUALITY AT PARADE

BUCKLER: It is parade season – a time that traditionally puts political stability under the greatest strain in Northern Ireland. And that’s something that can be seen on the streets. Last July an Orange Order parade was stopped from passing what some view as a mainly nationalist area in north Belfast. Every evening since, loyalists have held a march in the same stretch of road, but the restriction is still in place. Along with the past, issues of identity like parading and the flying of flags fuel a sense of division.

WOMAN: I like to remember the past. I would still like to be able to practice my culture, I’d like to be able to watch the bands playing up a short stretch of road, watch our banners go up a short stretch of road.

BUCKLER: The cost of policing the daily march here now stands at more than £9 million. Loyalists have also set up a protest camp beside where the parade is regularly stopped.

SOLINAS: We’re just about to walk into the civil rights camp. The civil rights camp has got banners from all over the UK in support of our campaign.

BUCKLER: And lots of flags.

SOLINAS: Yes, and lots of flags. You know, you have the Ulster flag, you have the union jack. - 17 -

BUCKLER: Gerald Solinas of the West Belfast loyalist organisation, the Ulster Political Research Group, is one of the campaigners.

SOLINAS: There is immense anger within the unionist loyalist community. We have amnesties, Sinn Fein, IRA. We have the taking down of our country’s flag off Belfast City Council. It seems to be anything to appease Sinn Fein at the cost of our culture and our identity. This campus here, they channel that anger in a positive way, they lobby peacefully for our religious and cultural freedom of expression.

BUCKLER: The tensions surrounding some marches have been successfully tackled, including in Martin McGuinness’s home city of Londonderry. And the Deputy First Minister insists that solutions can be found, even in places where parading continues to cause anger and anxiety.

MCGUINNESS: I think something absolutely needs to be done in terms of resolving parades. And of course, I come from a part of the north of Ireland where we resolved our parades conflict ten years ago. How did we do that? We done that because the loyal orders in my city and the local residents were prepared to show respect to each other, get into a room and find solutions, and we’ve been trouble-free for the last ten years. That’s where we’ve got to get to in Belfast, but the key to moving forward is people showing respect to each other, getting into a room and working out solutions.

BUCKLER: On the streets and at Stormont, tension is caused by a shared history that truly divides. There has been huge progress as a result of the peace process, but that long legacy of conflict always threatens to cast a shadow over the future. Kathryn Stone leaves her post as Victims Commissioner this week after two years in the job, acutely aware that proposals to deal with the past remain only that – proposals. Do you think the politicians, as they are at the moment, the parties in Stormont are capable of coming to a solution on how to deal with the past?

STONE: They have to be. I remain optimistic about a momentum that is building and will continue to build, that action needs to be taken and needs to be taken now, to enable this thing that we call dealing with the past to actually be done. One of the things that is so offensive to victims is the idea of moving on, drawing a line, put it all behind you. It’s actually very difficult to move on when you’ve got no legs. It’s actually very - 18 -

STONE cont: difficult to move on when there’s an empty space in the bed where your husband used to be. And unless we can support people to have answers, the truth that they expect and deserve, then it will be very difficult to deal with the past.

SIGNATURE TUNE