COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE

Official Hansard No. 7, 2000 5 JUNE 2000

THIRTY-NINTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—SIXTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE

CONTENTS

MONDAY, 5 JUNE

Representation of Queensland ...... 14491 Senators: Swearing In ...... 14491 Centenary of Federation: Joint Sitting ...... 14491 A New Tax System (Trade Practices Amendment) Bill 2000 In Committee...... 14491 Ministerial Arrangements ...... 14506 Questions Without Notice Economy: Foreign Debt ...... 14507 Economy: Tax Reform...... 14508 Goods and Services Tax: Advertisement...... 14509 Industrial Relations: Australian Workplace Agreements...... 14510 Goods and Services Tax: Australian Business Number Records...... 14511 Environment: Greenhouse Gases...... 14511 Goods and Services Tax: Australian Business Number Records...... 14512 Irian Jaya: Freeport Mine ...... 14513 Goods and Services Tax: Australian Business Number Records...... 14514 Environment: Natural Resources...... 14515 Goods and Services Tax: Australian Business Number Records...... 14516 Cox Peninsula Transmitter: Sale ...... 14516 Goods and Services Tax: Information ...... 14517 Rural and Regional Australia: Communications ...... 14519 Centenary of Federation: Joint Sitting ...... 14520 Answers To Questions On Notice Goods and Services Tax: Australian Business Number Records...... 14520 Cox Peninsula Transmitter: Sale ...... 14525 Petitions Goods and Services Tax: Repeal ...... 14526 Goods and Services Tax: Receipts and Dockets...... 14526 Medicare...... 14526 Radio Australia: Cox Peninsula...... 14527 Goods and Services Tax: Government Promises...... 14527 Mobile Phone Towers...... 14527 Notices—Presentation ...... 14527 Leave Of Absence...... 14529 Notices—Postponement...... 14529 Transport: Heavy Truck Specifications...... 14529 Notices Presentation ...... 14530 Withdrawal ...... 14530 Olympic Games: Torch Bearers...... 14530 Leave of Absence...... 14530 Documents ...... 14530 Tabling...... 14530 Auditor-General’s Reports...... 14531 Report No. 45 of 1999-2000...... 14531 Representation of New South Wales...... 14531 Budget 2000-01 ...... 14531 Portfolio Budget Statements...... 14531 Budget 1999-2000 Consideration by Legislation Committees...... 14531 Additional Information...... 14531 CONTENTS—continued

Committees Public Works Committee...... 14531 Report ...... 14531 Postal Services Legislation Amendment Bill 2000 Report of the Environment, Communications, Information Technology and the Arts Legislation Committee...... 14532 Social Security and Veterans' Entitlements Legislation Amendment (Miscellaneous Matters) Bill 2000 Report of the Community Affairs Legislation Committee ...... 14532 Committees Privileges Committee ...... 14532 90th Report...... 14532 Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee ...... 14533 Report ...... 14533 Joint Standing Committee on Treaties...... 14540 Report ...... 14540 Australian Electoral Commission ...... 14541 Administrative Decisions (Effect of International Instruments) Bill 1999 Primary Industries (Excise) Levies Amendment Bill 2000 Petroleum Excise Amendment (Measures to Address Evasion) Bill 2000 Local Government (Financial Assistance) Amendment Bill 2000 Workplace Relations Amendment Bill 2000 First Reading ...... 14541 Second Reading...... 14541 New Business Tax System (Alienation of Personal Services Income) Bill 2000 New Business Tax System (Alienated Personal Services Income) Tax Imposition Bill (No. 1) 2000 New Business Tax System (Alienated Personal Services Income) Tax Imposition Bill (No. 2) 2000 First Reading ...... 14549 Second Reading...... 14549 Sales Tax (Customs) (Industrial Safety Equipment) Bill 2000 Sales Tax (Excise) (Industrial Safety Equipment) Bill 2000 Sales Tax (General) (Industrial Safety Equipment) Bill 2000 Sales Tax (Industrial Safety Equipment) (Transitional Provisions) Bill 2000 First Reading ...... 14551 Second Reading...... 14551 Assent To Laws...... 14552 New Business Tax System (Alienation of Personal Services Income) Bill 2000 New Business Tax System (Alienated Personal Services Income) Tax Imposition Bill (No. 1) 2000 New Business Tax System (Alienated Personal Services Income) Tax Imposition Bill (No. 2) 2000 Report of Economics Legislation Committee...... 14552 Committees14552 Environment, Communications, Information Technology and the Arts References Committee...... 14552 Report ...... 14552 Employment, Workplace Relations, Small Business and Education Legislation Committee ...... 14557 Notices Withdrawal ...... 14562 CONTENTS—continued

A New Tax System (Trade Practices Amendment) Bill 2000 In Committee...... 14563 Third Reading...... 14575 New Business Tax System (Miscellaneous) Bill 1999 New Business Tax System (Venture Capital Deficit Tax) Bill 1999 Second Reading...... 14575 In Committee...... 14585 Third Reading...... 14592 Health Legislation Amendment (Gap Cover Schemes) Bill 2000 Second Reading...... 14592 Adjournment Northern Territory: Governance ...... 14608 Aviation Safety...... 14610 Zimbabwe...... 14612 Estimates: Evidence...... 14613 Women’s Forum 2000 ...... 14615 World Environment Day...... 14617 Employment: Youth...... 14619 Documents Tabling...... 14621 Proclamations...... 14623 Questions On Notice No. 1650—Magnetic Resonance Imaging: Medicare Rebates...... 14624 No. 1651—Magnetic Resonance Imaging: Task Force...... 14624 No. 1815—Australian National Estate: Mount Jerrabomberra ...... 14625 No. 1848—Airservices Australia: Rescue and Firefighting Service Staff ...... 14626 No. 1995—Antarctica: Casey Base Quarry...... 14627 No. 2002—Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu...... 14627 No. 2011—Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu...... 14629 No. 2021—Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with PricewaterhouseCoopers...... 14629 No. 2030—Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with PricewaterhouseCoopers...... 14631 No. 2040—Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with KPMG...... 14631 No. 2049—Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with KPMG ...... 14632 No. 2059—Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with Arthur Anderson...... 14632 No. 2068—Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with Arthur Andersen...... 14633 No. 2078—Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with Ernst and Young...... 14633 No. 2087—Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with Ernst and Young...... 14635 No. 2092—Antarctica: Australian Rubbish Clean-up...... 14635 No. 2095—Worker Entitlement Provisions...... 14636 No. 2109—Moran, Mr Mark: Employment ...... 14637 No. 2112—East Timor: Australian Federal Police Deployment ...... 14637 CONTENTS—continued

No. 2128—Child Disability Allowance: Families of Phenylketonuria Sufferers ...... 14639 No. 2131—Disability Support Pension: Breach of Rules...... 14639 CONTENTS—continued

Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14491

Monday, 5 June 2000 roy, it is a bit hard to speak to an amendment ————— if you have not already moved one. The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Senator CONROY—I would be happy to Margaret Reid) took the chair at 12.30 p.m. move that amendment. and read prayers. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Is it REPRESENTATION OF QUEENSLAND No. 1? The PRESIDENT—I have received, Senator CONROY—No. 1, the disclosure through the Governor-General, from the of GST on receipts, which has been circula- Governor of Queensland, the certificate of ted, I understand. With the other ones I am the choice by the Legislative Assembly of like Senator Murray; I am not sure if they Queensland of George Henry Brandis to fill the have been circulated yet. People are shaking vacancy caused by the resignation of Senator their heads, so I am assuming that we are just Warwick Parer. I table the document. on this one for the moment. It is disappoint- ing that this government continues to refuse SENATORS: SWEARING IN to allow Australian consumers to see the Senator George Henry Brandis made and GST clearly on dockets. Some stores have, it subscribed the oath of allegiance. is true, now decided to ignore the govern- CENTENARY OF FEDERATION: JOINT ment’s requests and directives. They intend to SITTING disclose the GST in certain ways on the The PRESIDENT—I inform honourable dockets. But it is no thanks to this govern- senators that this matter, listed at item 3 on ment. the Order of Business, will be dealt with at a It is not because this government wants later hour this day. true and frank disclosure on the impact of the A NEW TAX SYSTEM (TRADE GST. We have seen this government defeat PRACTICES AMENDMENT) BILL 2000 this amendment at least three times and at- tempt to use the ACCC to force companies In Committee not to show the true impact of the GST. This Consideration resumed from 11 May. government is running scared. It is running Senator CONROY (Victoria) (12.35 scared and hiding behind a $420 million— p.m.)—I note before the debate gets under that is just the meter to date—and increasing way on this amendment that Senator Cook propaganda exercise to try to convince ordi- referred to a potential amendment that Joel nary Australians that this tax is good for the Fitzgibbon was suggesting we may move. country and that this tax is good for them. However, it has been announced by the gov- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— ernment—good sense prevails on their side Senator Conroy, I am sorry to interrupt but of the chamber—that they have decided to are you moving amendment No. 1 dealing take up Mr Fitzgibbon’s ideas, which is wel- with taxable supply in relation to the GST comed by the opposition. We would like to act? see more of the government recognising the error of their ways and adopting Senator CONROY—That is not my first Mr Fitzgibbon’s suggestions. So we welcome amendment. that. But we have had this debate before— The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—That Senator Murray—Are they the amend- is amendment No. 1 on the running sheet we ments circulated? have—1804. Senator CONROY—We are just dealing Senator CONROY—I apologise. I am with the first one. We are dealing at this stage moving No. 1(b), which is ‘to assist in mini- with the disclosure of the GST on receipts, mising price exploitation when a corporation which I understand has been amended. supplies a consumer with a receipt or dock- et’. I thought that was No. 1(a) and the only The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN one that had been circulated. (Senator Ferguson)—Order! Senator Con- 14492 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—To (c) the total price of the goods or serv- make life easier, perhaps you could move ices including the GST. Nos 1 to 4 and speak to them generally and This government is running scared that the circulate the other amendments at a later true impact of the GST would be revealed if date. Is leave granted? Leave is granted. ordinary Australians were able to stand there Senator CONROY—Thank you, Mr and look at their dockets and say, ‘This is not Temporary Chairman, I will take your advice. what the government told us. They told us I move: prices were only going to go up by 1.9 per (1) Schedule 1, page 3 (after line 7), after item 1, cent.’ Last week we saw the ACCC expose insert: the government when it produced its price calculator which it had circulated to all Aus- 1A Section 75AT tralian households. I will come back to that Insert: because there is some very important infor- taxable supply has the same meaning as mation that Australians should be aware of in in the GST Act. the ACCC’s calculations—but let them stand (2) Schedule 1, page 3 (after line 7), after item for the moment as testimony to the govern- 1A, insert: ment exposed. 1B At the end of section 75AU We have asked consistently the ACCC, we Add: have asked consistently Mr Howard, we have (3) To assist in minimising price exploita- asked consistently Mr Costello: ‘What would tion, when a corporation provides a be the real price impacts?’ They said that consumer with a receipt or docket is- they could not imagine anything reaching the sued in respect of a taxable supply, the price of a 10 per cent increase. And what did receipt or docket must separately in- the ACCC find in their—might I say clude: ‘flawed’—study? They found that 45 items (a) the price of the goods or services of the 200 items they produced went up by excluding the GST; between eight per cent and 10 per cent—and (b) the amount of the GST; and such obscure items as electricity, gas, cloth- (c) the total price of the goods or serv- ing and books! These are the sorts of items ices including the GST. that this government sought to hound small (3) Schedule 1, page 6 (after line 5), after item 8, businesses about. You will all remember the insert: famous case of Gleebooks—a small book- 8A Section 75AT of Part 2 of the shop on Glebe Point Road in Glebe. Appar- Schedule ently Senator Alston bought a book from Insert: Gleebooks, and upon receiving the docket he saw that it stated that the book prices would taxable supply has the same meaning as go up by 10 per cent. What did he do? He in the GST Act. wrote to Mr Hockey. And what did Mr (4) Schedule 1, page 6 (after line 5), after item Hockey do? Mr Hockey referred this matter 8A, insert: across to the ACCC, and the ACCC fired off 8B At the end of section 75AU of Part its standard intimidation and fear letter to try 2 of the Schedule to force small businesses not to reveal the Add: true costs—and a political debate ensued. (3) To assist in minimising price exploita- This government and the ACCC insisted that tion, when a person provides a con- book prices would not go up by anywhere sumer with a receipt or docket issued in near as much as the book companies and the respect of a taxable supply, the receipt bookshops were claiming. But what did the or docket must separately include: ACCC calculator come up with last week: (a) the price of the goods or services 8.5 per cent. That is, as I said, on a very excluding the GST; flawed analysis which I will come to in sub- (b) the amount of the GST; and sequent contributions. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14493

Senator Ian Campbell interjecting— d each time the reasons get thinner and thin- Senator CONROY—I will take that in- ner because they know that Australians want terjection from Senator Campbell, because this information. They know that Australians when this government, which is running would like to see the GST costs on the dock- scared at the moment, finally calls an elec- ets. The consumer groups in this country tion, the choice that this country will have is want to see it, and ordinary Australians you either an opposition committed to rolling talk to in the streets would like to know. Why back the unfair parts of the GST or a gov- does the ACCC use its powers to force com- ernment that is committed to rolling forward panies not to have ‘before and after’ price the GST on to food and upping the rate. That tags? From last week, we have permission is what this government is about. John How- from the ACCC. ard, Senator Campbell and the Treasurer have Last Friday before Senate estimates, I said one thing that everyone should keep in asked the ACCC on what basis they believed mind: they want a GST on food. So if they they had the legal, enforceable power to ban are voted for again in the next election, they a company displaying a docket of any type it might even promise you that they would wanted. They said, ‘It could be false and never, ever do it on food, but do not forget misleading.’ I said, ‘If a company has calcu- that they said that they would never, ever do lated the true cost of the increases and wants a GST. This is a government that is commit- to continue to have a dual price tag after 30 ted to rolling the GST forward; it is commit- June, why shouldn’t it be able to? Why ted to seeing more GST put on more ordinary shouldn’t an ordinary consumer be able to products, and then as always—as we all see what the price of the good was before the know, prices are already going up—the GST GST and after the GST?’ What could possi- rate will not stay where it is. The GST rate bly be wrong with that, Senator Campbell? will go up. We all know that. It has happened But no, the government has made sure that in every single country in the world that has the ACCC are enforcing a guideline that is introduced a GST: the rate has been put up. not the law, as we have shown after the So there should be no pretence by this ACCC have tried for six months to pretend government that the rate will not go up and, that their guidelines were law. The Minister worse, they want to roll this GST forward on for Financial Services and Regulation, my to food. It is their stated position. It is the opposite in the other place, issued a press Treasurer’s preference; it is the Prime Min- statement saying that the guidelines are the ister’s preference; and it is Senator Camp- law. We all know it is not the law. bell’s preference. If you want to put it into a Finally, Professor Fels admitted last week simple debate: we will roll it back; we will that the guidelines were simply a guide the take some of the unfairness out of it. You can courts could look at—that is all: just a guide. never fix this GST, but we will take some of But that has not stopped them threatening the unfairness out and we will make it sim- and intimidating. It has not stopped them pler—not the nightmare that this government trying to stop shops putting the GST before are currently foisting on small business, not and after prices. This government is consis- the fear and intimidation that the government tently refusing to disclose the true impact. It are using with their lap-dog, the ACCC, to dodgied up some modelling and misled the run around and terrorise ordinary Australian Australian public before the last election. businesses and ordinary Australian compa- Remember the 1.9 per cent? There was no nies. That is what this government are en- 1.9 per cent in the ACCC’s figures last week. gaged in. This amendment is part of it. The government continues to try to pretend Why won’t the Democrats support dis- black is white, and it continues as it did be- playing the tax on the docket? I look forward fore the last election with what now seems a to Senator Murray’s contribution on this. I trivial amount of money—only $19 mil- know that Senator Murray has spoken on this lion—that it spent in three weeks before the before. Like him, I am keeping a record of last federal election was called, promoting the reasons they vote against it each time— the so-called benefits of the GST. Now it is and each time the reasons get thinner and thin- 14494 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 hiding behind the most obscene advertising ket. The government says, ‘It is simple.’ Al- campaign in terms of content and expenditure lan Fels says, ‘Consumers will be able to tell this country has ever seen. us whether or not there is price exploitation.’ What was the Democrats’ view? ‘It is all He keeps saying, ‘I have got 18 million con- the Labor Party’s fault that they need to sumers out there, and they are all looking at spend this money, because they have caused the GST.’ Senator Campbell and Senator so much confusion.’ Senator Murray, you Murray: what is one-eleventh of $47.30? It have the opportunity to stand up here and should be simple. You are standing there at give us your view on whether you believe the shelf, and the price of something is $420 million in education and advertising is $47.30. How do you calculate the GST? Take necessary, and we will look forward to your your calculator to the shop because you are contribution. I will be keeping the Hansard going to need it. That is the only way Allan for posterity on this one, Senator Murray, Fels will be able to rely on you giving him because I am looking forward to you justify- accurate information. What is one-eleventh ing, like your leader did, the government’s of the price? I do not know; I do not carry a outrageous misuse of taxpayer funds. You are calculator and I am not a mathematician. But in on the deal; you are in on the fix. You will apparently Allan Fels is prepared to run with not be supporting this, as you have not in the the rubbish that consumers will be able to tell past. You will be happy to vote for an how much the GST is affecting their goods amendment to give $10 million to the Packer and they will be able to work out what one- family, that struggling, small, Victorian busi- eleventh of every single item they buy is. It is ness at the casino. A high-roller amendment the only way to work out the GST. That is at $10 million? No problem. Tell consumers how stores do it. They have computers and what the impact of the GST is? Not a chance. cash registers, but ordinary punters—unless That is where the Democrats have got to in they are carrying their laptop around with this debate. They have become so in thrall to them—have no way of knowing, unless this the government that they are prepared to sup- government and the Democrats are prepared port, any way possible, the government’s to support these amendments. attempts to cover up the true impact of the Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) GST. (12.51 p.m.)—As usual, there was a lot in The Democrats have a long and proud there, and I think there are some points worth history of transparency, Senator Murray. The responding to. Before I do that, I would like government continue to claim that they are assistance to circulate these documents, and I abolishing the hidden wholesale sales tax. So will seek leave later on to have them tabled. why are they trying to hide the GST? At least The first thing I need to say, and it is a you don’t have to get caught up in that piece matter of honesty, is that Senator Conroy of hypocrisy, Senator Murray. You can say would know that you are judged equally by you are against the hidden WST and also the what you do as by what you say. Senator hidden GST. You have the chance to stand up Conroy, with respect to putting the GST on and be counted and not get into the web of food, I remind you that, three times at divi- deceit that this government are involved in. sions called by me, you and the rest of the You do not have to say, ‘Oh, no, we think Labor Party voted for a GST on food. It is on that the old WST system was hidden and the record, it is in the Hansard and it has there were all these flaws in it, but we are never been repudiated by your party. Your prepared to support the government in it, party have never said, ‘Gee, we are sorry we hiding behind an advertising campaign to voted three times in divisions for the GST to disguise the true impact of the GST.’ be on food,’ and I am expecting that, unless We urge the government and the Demo- you do repudiate it as part of your policy crats to support these amendments and put platform, you will be going to the next elec- some honesty back in the GST debate, so that tion advocating that you will roll back the we do not have to try to calculate the GST GST on one or two items but you will roll it when we are walking around the supermar- forward on basic food. The Labor Party will Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14495 put a GST on food, as they have voted three Senator MURRAY—I want to use this as times to do so in the GST debates. a sample, because it has been sent to all par- Let us move to the question of whether liamentarians. This is a sample docket which, taxes should be on price tickets and on final under the new tax system, will be issued by receipts and dockets. This issue has been Woolworths Ltd to customers. I am not sure covered extensively before. The fact is that of their market share, but I suspect it is close the law does not prevent that happening. Mr to 20 per cent of the entire Australian market Temporary Chairman, I seek the permission in the categories they deal with, so this is a of both the Labor Party and the coalition to very good example of a business which has have this tabled so that we can discuss it very substantial Australia-wide coverage. during my address. This docket has listed beef-steak pies, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN which are asterisked as a GSTable item; (Senator Ferguson)—Do you want it tabled Bulla Ice Cream, also taxable; free range or incorporated? eggs, not taxable; Tim Tams, taxable, Jumbo olives, not taxable, antiperspirants, taxable; Senator MURRAY—Whichever is the brown onions, not taxable; light Philly easiest. cheese, not taxable; Coca Cola, taxable; The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Is toothbrush, taxable; and carrots, not taxable. leave granted for the document to be incorpo- In this sample docket, it totals the price of rated in Hansard? those items at $33.72, and it indicates at the Leave granted. bottom that the total GST to be charged on The document read as follows— that docket is $1.76. This means that every customer who goes into Woolworths will Woolworths Limited know exactly how much GST they are paying Sample docket to be issued to customers under the in total on that docket. I remind the Senate New Tax System again: there is nothing in the law which pre- Proudly Australian vents any retailer from showing GST; sec- Woolworths ondly, the law requires retailers, or any busi- ABN 8800 014 675 The Fresh Food People ness which sells to another business, to ad- Parramatta Parliament House:9891 6737 vise those businesses what the GST compo- Managers Name is: M. Scott nent is. For instance, if you were a law firm Served by: 70 Paul $ buying these goods from Woolworths, and * B/steak Pies 4package 3.99 * Bulla Ice cream 3.99 you wished to claim them as an input to be F/R eggs 700G 4.05 deducted, you would need to know that fig- *Tim Tams 235G 2.27 ure. So the first point to make is that con- Olives Jumbo 2.93 sumers will be able to readily identify from * Anti Perspirant 3.75 retailers how much GST is on dockets. The Brown onions 1.59 Light Philly 250g 2.17 second point is that the existing taxes—most * Coke 1250 ml 1.56 of which have been put into law under Labor * Toothbrush 3.79 governments, both state and federal—are not Carrots 2.145 KG @ $1.69kg 3.63 shown on dockets. The wholesale sales tax, 11 TOTAL $33.72 Cash $50.00 for instance, has never been shown on dock- Change 16.30 ets. No Labor government anywhere in the Rounding 0.02- country has ever agreed to, wanted to or ad- vocated putting wholesale sales tax on dock- * Taxable items ets. TOTAL includes GST $1.76 TAX INVOICE Payroll tax is something that is supported 1106 014 1943 070 2:45 20/07/00 by all Labor governments. The payroll tax 540 George Street, Sydney NSW 2000 PO Box component of costs are not put on dockets, Q70, Q.V.B. Post Shop, Sydney NSWQ 1230 neither is excise and neither are all the other Telephone (02)0323 1555 International (612) taxes which are hidden within every price 90323 1555 that every Australian pays. What I am doing 14496 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 here is exposing the essential hypocrisy of a clude such luminaries as the ACTU—sup- policy which seeks for the very first time to porters of the Labor Party—and many other do something which the Labor Party has organisations of that ilk. So there is $200 never agreed to do with any form of taxation million worth of practical implementation in any receipt or invoice. Secondly, through programs which, frankly, are much needed. I this example of the Woolworths Ltd docket, I think the government’s choice of community, am showing how retailers will be telling business and union organisations to put the every consumer in the country exactly what implementation of this new tax system out to GST they have paid on the items they have their members and to apply it practically is an bought. To me, it makes these amendments extremely intelligent choice. Otherwise, the both duplicitous, deceptive and unnecessary. implementation would never have been able The main area of remarks made by Senator to progress as it has. The second component Conroy relate to the advertising campaign in that $420 million of advertising, as I un- that the government has conducted. None of derstand, is that it is a four-year figure. The us, the Labor Party included, ever deny that third point to make is that the remaining governments need to provide information and amount of money includes amounts neces- to advertise their policies and their programs. sary to advertise and promote the changes With regard to this particular section of ad- being made to business taxes, not just to the vertising, the question is: is it a rort, is it po- GST, which has attracted such attention. litical, is it a problem? The precedent was So when we come down to a core figure of originally set by the Labor Party in its term perhaps somewhere between $40 million and of office, it has been carried on by the coali- $50 million, the question we have to face is tion in its term of office, and it has been ex- whether the government has gone too far—is posed to a vast extent in this latest round of there a political and propaganda component advertising. I think the Labor Party’s case in it? I think the Labor Party have done an would be served far better if it did not exag- excellent job in highlighting that there has gerate, because I think it does have a case, been that element to it. One might well use But, in exaggerating its case, it has dimin- Senator Ray’s examples of large poster cam- ished the impact of what it has done. paigns or relatively uninformative TV cam- I have the pleasure—and it is a pleasure— paigns as just going too far on the propa- of sitting in the Senate Finance and Public ganda side; however, the leaflet campaigns Administration Legislation Committee esti- and the newspaper print campaigns, for in- mates process. Senators Ray and Faulkner, stance, are highly informative and, in my quite frankly, are an example to all senators opinion, quite objective. So there is a balance as to how to conduct that process. I might somewhere in between. remind some senators here: very seldom do The Labor Party are very good at raising they stray into impolite or abusive behaviour, heat and showing that there is a problem but strong as their points might be. not in suggesting a solution, because when Senator Conroy interjecting— they get into power—which surely they will one day, as the cycles go—they want to do Senator MURRAY—I agree with Senator exactly the same thing as the government is Conroy that I can learn a great deal from presently doing, and that is always the case. those two, because they really do it very well. The Labor Party will complain vigorously But the fact is that, in the exposure of this about the standards of the Prime Minister’s matter, they have under questioning exposed code of conduct, but they will do nothing to the fact that—and I do not have the exact change the system to provide a solution. figures—a couple of hundred million dollars They will complain vigorously about whether of this $420 million you refer to has been appointments to boards, authorities or com- specifically given to organisations that have mittees are independent, and we will put up to implement the new tax system—in other proposals and they will reject them, they will words, to conduct training, seminars and in- throw them out, because they want to do the formation campaigns of their own. As the same when they are in government. The es- Labor Party know, those organisations in- Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14497 sential weakness of the Labor Party position base will produce more revenue for all the is that they show—and rightly show—that states and for the Commonwealth to use there are problems with what a government is much more effectively for the services that doing, but they will not do anything to re- all Australians need. The Labor Party are solve those problems. In answer to Senator going to have to face up to that when they Conroy’s challenge to me, I will develop a face up to the next election. solution to this and I will put it to you. I will Senator COONEY (Victoria) (1.05 be very surprised if you vote for it because p.m.)—I would like to say something in rela- when you are in office you will want to be tion to what Senator Murray said about the doing exactly what the government is doing. advertising campaign. He said, ‘The Labor I will be very interested to see whether or not Party has conducted a big campaign about the that is the case. GST and has put its case,’ and that is right. The last point I want to make is that the He then said, ‘To counter that, the govern- government’s very extensive expenditure on ment has to go through a campaign,’ and I the implementation of the new tax system has think that is a fair proposition. But the differ- to be put into perspective. Multibillion dollar ence is that the Labor Party has paid for its changes are being implemented and, there- campaign, whereas the coalition has the tax- fore, you need to do take some sort of ratio payers’ money to pay for its campaign. approach to it. Secondly, there has been from So, if you take what is being said to its some in the media and from all of the ALP a logical conclusion, it is this: at the time of the scare-a-day campaign which the government next election, the Labor party will conduct a has had to counter. The Labor Party have campaign and it will go out and put its probably done a good job in trying to put the propositions forcibly so that it goes against finger on wherever any problems exist, but in the government. Now, on the logic that has the process they have so confused and so been put here today, since Labor will have perturbed so many sectors of the Australian done that, the government should be entitled population that the government has had to to use taxpayers’ funds to run its next elec- counter it with an unusually large—in fact, tion. That is the proposition that has been historically extraordinary—information and put: if there is a campaign against the GST, to advertising campaign. But, having done so, I counter that there has to be a campaign for it have no doubt that once we have passed 1 and therefore the government is justified in July we will join the three-quarters of the using taxpayers’ money. On the present logic, countries of the world that have a GST or a it will be quite all right for the government to VAT. We will join the billions of people in spend taxpayers’ money to run its next elec- the world who have a GST or a VAT. We will tion campaign. That just cannot be right. join the tens of millions of business in the world that have a GST or a VAT. And the The next proposition I want to put is about Labor Party, where they are in power in the the GST, where it has got to and what is be- states, and if they ever get back into power in ing said as to why the Labor Party does not, the Commonwealth, will be absolutely de- in effect, abolish the GST after the next elec- lighted that there will be a broad based tax tion if it is so concerned about it. This is ig- which will deliver them much higher reve- noring what I call the My Fair Lady syn- nue. drome. Perhaps I can explain what happens. You will remember that Professor Higgins The challenge the government throws to takes Eliza Doolittle off the street outside the Labor Party is: where is your policy? If Covent Garden, where she had been selling you are against the new tax system, you flowers. She is a particular sort of person. should be obliged to go to the election and Professor Higgins takes her away and makes say that you will withdraw it. If you are not her somebody entirely different: she becomes against it, then you should indicate exactly a lady and she develops in society in a par- what reforms you intend implementing. Our ticular way. Having thus changed her, Profes- position as Democrats has been clear: we sor Higgins says, ‘Well, you’re leaving the believe that lower rates and broadening the house.’ She says, ‘What can I do?’ and he 14498 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 says, ‘You can go back to being a flower if he would. I am led to believe that now girl.’ In theory that is right but the situation is lawyers cannot do pro bono work or cannot so changed—she is so changed, the society reduce prices to relations and that what they she has gone with has so changed—that is will have to do is charge the full fee, what- not a reality. It is the same sort of thing with ever that may be, and put the GST onto that. this GST: once it is introduced, once it be- If they do pro bono work or do work for comes enmeshed in society and once things relatives or friends at a reduced rate, they have changed, it is going to be very difficult have to pay the GST themselves on the basis to go back. that the full fee has been charged. If I could The next thing I want to talk about is the get that checked by the parliamentary secre- sample docket that Senator Murray has put tary, that would be good. into the debate. It seems to me to be perfect Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (1.13 evidence that this can be done. This is what p.m.)—With regard to the process that we are the amendment is asking for: going through—and I suppose that we will (3) To assist in minimising price exploita- continue to go through for some time because tion, when a corporation provides a of the very interesting comments that have consumer with a receipt or docket is- been made by Senator Murray with regard to sued in respect of a taxable supply, the advertising—I have to say to you, Senator receipt or docket must separately in- Murray, that I listened with great interest to clude: what you said. With regard to the document (a) the price of the goods or services you circulated, it is a very interesting concept excluding the GST— that you are arguing that gives some justifi- which is what the Woolworths sample docket cation to the Democrats’ position. I did does— note—through you, Mr Temporary Chairman (b) the amount of the GST— Ferguson—that Senator Murray argued that we somehow supported the GST on food. which is what the sample docket does— The only reason we ever voted for a GST on (c) the total price of the goods or serv- food was that we wanted the Democrats to ices including the GST— vote against the GST full-stop. That is what and which is also what the sample docket that was for; that is exactly why we did that. does. This docket provides evidence that Of course, we now know that this is going what the opposition, the Labor Party, is con- so badly that the government has had to tending is absolutely feasible. If this were to spend about $500 million on an advertising become law, then, as this docket shows, that campaign that contains little or no informa- law could be carried out quite succinctly. tion. It is really outrageous. If you were What may need to happen is that people may really on about informing the public, then need to be provided with machines to do it, you at least ought to give them some infor- and it might be fair to provide those ma- mation about it. Even when ads do contain a chines. That has been argued again and again. little information, it is very limited. So I would suggest to Senator Murray that his introduction of this docket confirms that These bills relate to the powers of the what is proposed to be done in the amend- Trade Practices Act, and 10 per cent is 10 per ment is feasible and certainly fair. Why cent is 10 per cent—or, as I think Senator shouldn’t people be obliged to show what Conroy said, you have to take your calculator they are charging—what they are paying by along to work it out, especially if it is one- way of tax and what they are charging by eleventh of the price. It is all very interesting, way of goods? because 10 per cent is not 10 per cent is 10 per cent. The ACCC really will not have the One other thing, a tangent to this, arises power to prosecute, and that has become ap- from discussions we had at the weekend. An- parent during the estimates process and in the other GST is going to be imposed on fees previous questioning with regard to these charged by legal firms. I will get Senator bills. There have been proposals for signifi- Campbell to get confirmation of this later on cant penalties—I think it is $500,000 in the Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14499 case of an individual and $10 million in the is a very interesting set of circumstances. So I case of a corporate body—which are way do not base too much faith on a receipt that above those which have current application. contains at the end of it just a single amount It is a matter of interest that, as we change the for GST. And if it is the case that prices are tax system, we have to have much higher going up, it would be interesting to hear from penalties for exploitation or misleading ac- the government what they intend to do about tivities on the part of business. that. What are they directing the ACCC to An area that has come to light with regard do? I recall a statement issued on 15 January to the effect of the GST is rent and the possi- from Mr Hockey, Minister for Financial bility for rent increases under the GST. We Services and Regulation, titled ‘Hockey di- know that some increases in household rent rects ACCC on GST’, which said: are expected as a result of the changes under The Minister for Financial Services Joe Hockey the GST. What landlords are supposedly not today directed the ACCC not to approve any busi- allowed to do is, say, to increase the rent by ness initiatives on the GST that may increase 10 per cent or more and then blame it on the prices by more than 10%. GST. That somehow would be considered to Where are you now, Mr Hockey? Where is be misleading conduct. But we have discov- the minister now? We know that there have ered in this issue alone that, in the case of been significant price movements in very rents—if the landlord does not have an ABN, recent times. We know that there have been and perhaps even if he does—the ACCC has charges of profit taking and price fixing. So I no power under price exploitation law and it would be very interested to hear from Minis- only has some power with regard to mis- ter Hockey now. Of course, the ACCC must leading conduct. My point is this: a landlord have some knowledge of this. If it has been can put the rent up by 15 or 20 per cent if the doing its surveys of 600,000 items, it must landlord so wishes, and the ACCC can do have some knowledge that the prices have nothing about it. If the landlord says that the been going up. This is all relevant to the pro- 20 per cent is due to the GST, then the cess of this government implementing a new ACCC—again, I am not quite sure whether tax system. We have provided the ACCC being registered with an ABN or not is rele- with about $94.8 million for the GST pro- vant—may be able to do something about gram. that. Statements back on 14 February would It is a very interesting situation if you want indicate that maybe it can do something in to make a complaint to the ACCC. During respect of misleading conduct. the course of estimates, I asked the ACCC Of course, that provides us with a very in- about their complaints processes when people teresting analysis of how this thing is going have concerns about exploitation. They pro- to operate with regard to price exploitation. vided us with a very nice folder that con- The ACCC has been conducting surveys of tained information about the processes and the prices of about 600,000 items over a pe- how they will operate. I think it was a single riod of time. It has also recruited the services sheet called ‘GST Talk 4’ that went to the of about 350 contractors to survey prices in question that I was talking about earlier re- 176 cities around the country, and it probably lating to rent increases. It said that you could has another 400-odd people surveying petrol ring the 1300 number—I cannot off the top prices. What I find interesting about that is of my head remember the specific number— this: consumer groups around the country, and you could ring a range of state and terri- who are also doing surveys of prices, are tory offices relevant to rental controls. I did saying that prices are already going up—be- ask the ACCC whether or not they had in fore the GST. Going back to Senator place a range of agreements with the state Murray’s reference to Woolworths, I under- bodies, and they said, ‘Yes, we have. We stand that the ACCC is embarking on an ac- have spoken with them and we have an ar- tion against Woolworths for encouraging rangement in place.’ their suppliers to put up prices pre-GST so I recall saying to the ACCC, ‘Look, I that they can maintain a net dollar value. That would like to test the veracity of that,’ which 14500 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

I did. I took the opportunity to make a phone between zero and 2.2 per cent. On $100 I call to the ACT consumer affairs office. I could probably expect about a $2 or $2.50 have not got the documents with me but I increase per week. The person on the ACCC made some handwritten notes about this. Be- inquiry desk could not specify it to me. In- fore I rang the ACT consumer affairs body I deed, the person said that it should be some- rang the ACCC 1300 number, which I found thing less than 10 per cent. I do not know a very interesting process to be involved in. what less than 10 per cent amounts to. How As I informed the ACCC later, it took me is a consumer going to make any judgment some 8½ minutes to actually get to speak to about what savings a landlord has made? On someone. I got a recording at the outset that what basis do they proceed to do that? How informed me that I had actually rung the do they actually know? ACCC prices hotline number. It then made a I then rang the ACT organisation. I got an- reference to a couple of numbers, that if I had other recording that said, ‘Thank you for a particular complaint to ring this number or ringing the consumer affairs office,’ and so that number, but otherwise to wait. I waited. on. I went through the process of listening to Then I had to press a number and it put me the music. Indeed, I was told that my wait through to another recording which said could be an extensive one due to the large things like, ‘Thank you for calling. Your call number of calls and that I would experience is important. If you require this information periods of silence, which I did, and they were or that information,’ and on it goes. very lengthy periods of silence. But I stuck Senator Ian Campbell—This is just a with it and I actually got to speak to someone joke. in the end. I said, ‘Are you the person who Senator MURPHY—Senator Campbell, I can give me some explanation with regard to take that interjection, that this is a joke. What rental increases and the GST?’ The response is important is that the consumers of this was, ‘No is the short answer. I suggest you country have been given information about ring the GST hotline.’ I said, ‘Do you know ringing up particular phone numbers for in- anything about rent increases and the GST?’ formation and lodging complaints if they ‘No, not really. I have read that they should believe there is a case of price exploitation. not go up very much. But can I suggest that So what is important to the consumer is that you ring the specific rental organisation that they can do that and know that they will have deals with public sector rents.’ They gave me a process that they can get through on. That the two numbers to ring and said, ‘You can is what is important here. I say that this ring those between nine and 12.’ I found that would be well worth Senator Campbell tak- to be a very unhelpful exercise. ing on board, as the ACCC did, because they This information I have conveyed to the may need some more money to actually pro- ACCC. It is important for consumers. If you vide a bit better service than they have cur- are bringing in a major change that is going rently got going, because it does take a long to have some effect on prices and the process time. through which you are going to do that, you I raised questions about rental increases have to have something in place. How is the with the person I eventually got to speak to. I ACCC ever going to prosecute anybody if said, ‘I am paying, as an example, $100 a you cannot get through to talk to somebody week rent. The landlord has said to me that who actually understands exactly what the the rent is going up to $110 a week and it is problem is? That is a major difficulty here. because of the GST.’ I was told, ‘The land- The minister said he directed the ACCC be- lord really can’t do that. They can’t say that.’ fore. I would like to hear from him what we I said, ‘Can you give me an indicative in- are doing about it now. Prices are going up crease that you think I should actually pay?’ even prior to the implementation of the GST, The ACCC have made a claim that the and we have got to move on and do some- maximum rental increase that people should thing about it. (Time expired) expect to pay is around 2.2 per cent. That Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western figure was the maximum, so I could expect Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14501

Minister for Communications, Information The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN Technology and the Arts) (1.28 p.m.)—I (Senator Crowley)—Order! Senator, in the might just record from the outset that we future, please refer to Mr Beazley by his have now been going for nearly an hour. We proper title. have heard a series of contributions, each Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I am not re- lasting their full time, except for Senator ferring to a person; I am referring to a new Cooney, who probably spoke a little bit under document. his time. This is in the wake of a commitment from the opposition when we were last sitting The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—You that the bill would be passed during this ses- did refer to ‘Kim’s document’. sion before question time today. I am cer- Senator IAN CAMPBELL—‘Kim’s tax tainly hoping that the opposition spokesman policy.’ will keep to that commitment he has made, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— and that he will not further delay this impor- Please refer to Mr Beazley by his proper title. tant piece of legislation. Senator IAN CAMPBELL—He does not There have been amongst those opposition have a tax policy, so I will call it ‘Mr speakers an array of appalling misrepresenta- Beazley’s tax policy’—if he ever has one. I tions about the new tax system, and their ap- suspect, Senator Murray, it will not be Mr palling misrepresentation of the new tax sys- Beazley’s tax policy; it will actually be Mr tem is a very important reason, as Senator Crean’s tax policy, and it should have on the Murray has made clear, that we have a high top of it, ‘We will bring in a law which says quality, high impact, cut-through campaign to that the GST has to be shown on dockets.’ ensure that the people of Australia know But they will not do that because they will what is happening with the significant not want to do what this amendment does; changes to the tax system. that is, ensure that hundreds of thousands of Nearly an hour ago, Senator Conroy tried businesses across Australia, who are at this to make the point about a future government very moment complying with the law— bringing in a GST on food. I will not delay Senator Murphy—You’re the govern- the Senate very long, but it is very appropri- ment. What a joke! ate that Senator Conroy, Senator Murphy and Senator Conroy—No complaints, if others, most importantly the general public, you’re going to filibuster like this. know the history of the Australian Labor Party when it comes to taxes. Here they are The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Or- saying that some future government might der, senators on my left! bring in a tax on food. What is the Kim Senator IAN CAMPBELL—The oppo- Beazley tax policy? Senator Murray would sition just demonstrate the rank hypocrisy know very well the hidden Labor taxes on that applies to their side of the Senate. You some of the items on the Woolworths list that get a whole hour of the Australian Labor he incorporated. If they were fair dinkum Party’s misrepresentations, lying and deceit about showing indirect taxes on receipts, they about a tax policy, and then when I get up to had 13 years to do it. I say to them, ‘Do not make one short point, all I get is— come in here and move an amendment saying Senator Conroy—We could have had this that you should have GST on receipts. Start vote by now. filling in the blank policy paper, the Beazley Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I sat here policy paper, the blank sheet of paper.’ You quietly for one hour and interjected only once could make one commitment here today. You in an hour. I have now been constantly inter- could start at the top of a page—‘Our tax jected upon by senators opposite, by Senator policy’, ‘Kim’s tax policy’—and say, ‘The Conroy and his comrade Senator Murphy, first time parliament sits after the election, with no interruption from the chair at all. I we will bring in an amendment to ensure that am seeking to make one point and I will the GST has to be shown on dockets.’ make it. 14502 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

Senator Conroy—There will be no com- not food. What are muesli bars and health plaints if you keep wasting time. foods? They are not food either. Of course The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Or- they are not food! But Labor likes to tax them der, senators! With respect, I have already at 22 per cent. Potato chips are not food. rebuked the senators on the left and I think it Popcorn is not food. Pretzels are not food. is important that we stay with the facts. Cheese and bacon balls, I guess, are not food Senators on the left, can we allow Senator either. But Labor likes to put taxes of be- Campbell a clear hearing? He has been tween 12 and 22 per cent on all of those speaking legitimately, only within his time. foods. Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Thank you, They talk about books and the Gleebooks Madam Temporary Chairman. When it shop. They want to pretend that they really comes to tax policy, the Australian Labor care about this clever country, about the in- Party could do one thing; that is, actually formation economy, building a globalised make a commitment. They could fill in the information economy, but what do they do to top line of a blank sheet of paper and say, achieve that? Senator Conroy said, ‘You’ll ‘We’ll make sure you have to put GST on need to take a laptop into the supermarket to dockets.’ But they should not do it for the work out the costs.’ What is Labor’s great same reason that this amendment should be policy on the information economy? I ask defeated; that is, that small businesses are Senator Murray through you, Madam Tempo- complying with the law. They are now im- rary Chairman: how will they encourage plementing the tax system. They have a people to get connected to the Internet? They choice under this tax system. As Senator say to you, ‘We want to put a 22 per cent tax Murray has shown very clearly, they can on your laptop, a 22 per cent tax on your have the choice of bringing in a tax invoice CDs, on your CD-ROM drives, on your mo- which shows the GST or they may not. Many dems and even on the paper that you need to of them will not want to. Many of them cer- print out’—printing paper, 22 per cent. As tainly will not want some interfering Labor the ACCC’s document that was posted to Party politicians in Canberra forcing them to households shows, the price of all those items do it when they do not want to be forced. will come down and the Internet Industry They will figure out how to do it themselves. Association and the Computer Society will The other thing that needs to be put to rest is all tell you that the cost of the hardware you Labor’s history of taxing food. If you go need to get connected will come down be- through the Woolworths docket which Sena- tween eight and 12 per cent. tor Murray had incorporated, you will see This bunch of people opposite say to ice-cream on the list, which was taxed under school kids, ‘We want to roll back the GST.’ Kim Beazley. They will not tell you where they will roll it Senator Conroy—It is confectionary. back; they say, ‘We are going to have a roll- back.’ I contemplate Kim Beazley and Simon Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Ice-cream is Crean sitting in an old 1972 Charger or an not food? You go and tell Senator Murray’s old Monaro trying to roll it back and put it in kids and grandkids that ice-cream is not food. reverse to get it started. The roll-back policy What are Tim Tams? Are they not food ei- makes me think of these 1950s and 1960s ther? When my staff are having their choco- retro-politicians who are going to roll back a late attack this afternoon, I will tell them, policy. They are not going to tell you how ‘It’s okay, you can go off your diet; it’s not until after the election, I heard on the week- food. Eat a Tim Tam.’ There we have it, end. We might not know what their tax policy Senator Murray. When the Labor Party rolls will be until after the election. They will go it back, they are going to put Kim Beazley’s to the people of Australia saying, ‘We are hidden tax on Tim Tams. going to roll it back. We will not tell you Dog food is not food, unless, of course, where or how, but we are going to roll it you are a dog—I will resist my temptations back.’ They will jump into the old Monaro, in relation to that, Senator Murray. Cordial is stick it in reverse, roll it down the hill and Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14503 hope it bloody—Excuse me, Madam Tempo- bate, is actually have an alternative. You will rary Chair, I withdraw that word. They will get by, every now and again, with a scare a hope that it splutters into life. You are going day. You will get by by attacking advertise- to have to try harder. ments. You will get by by carping, whinge- I want to talk briefly about the hypocrisy ing, whining and being negative. You will get of Labor in relation to tax on books and tax by by bringing down new ideas and by at- on educational requirements. When kids go tacking people with the ticker to bring in a to buy all of their requirements for school— new policy. But sooner or later you will have when they buy sketch books or project to have your own policy. I will be very sur- books—they pay a 22 per cent tax on them. prised if you even produce it before the next When they buy exercise books, paper, eras- election. ers, marking pens, compasses, protractors When you repudiate your policy to keep and rulers, Mr Beazley—the clever guy, the your tax on four-wheel drives and to bring in information guy, the education man—says, your retrospective capital gains tax, that will ‘We are going to tax you on those.’ When it be a start. But you have to get the blank bit of comes to computers or anything you need for paper which is Kim Beazley’s policy at the education, Labor already has these taxes in moment and you have to fill in the first line. place. They have taxes all through the su- You need one line. It takes just a little bit of permarket shelves. Senator Murray, your ink on the paper—there is a 22 per cent tax Woolworths invoice, now incorporated in the on the paper and a 22 per cent tax on the Hansard forevermore, shows that Labor’s pen—to write the first word. You need ‘Kim taxes on coca-cola and toothpaste are 22 per Beazley’s tax policy’ at the top—four cent. They want to charge a 22 per cent tax words—and then you can start writing. Until on toothpaste, orange juice, Tim Tams and you do that, you are not even in the game. antiperspirants. The tax on all of those items Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) is coming off. (1.41 p.m.)—I have a question to the mover It is the total at the bottom of the tape that of the amendment. If I look at item 2 on matters, they used to remind us in the good 1804, it says: old days. On the TV ads, back in Kim To assist in minimising price exploitation, when a Beazley’s and Simon Crean’s days, they re- corporation provides a consumer with a receipt or minded us that it was the total at the bottom docket ... of the tape that mattered to the mums and Does that mean that businesses or organisa- dads who were shopping. The cost of that tions or entities making a taxable supply who basket of groceries is going to be less. Labor are not corporations will not have to do this? do not want you to know that— Do you know how many there are? Senator Conroy—There should be no Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.42 more complaints about time wasting. p.m.)—I am advised that, no, other busi- Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I finish nesses are caught in item 4. where I began. It is quite okay for Senator Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Conroy opposite to spend a whole hour (1.42 p.m.)—My second question, through spewing out irrelevant and misleading facts the chair to Senator Conroy, is as follows. It about tax policy, but when I get up for a few refers to ‘when a person’ in item 4 and ‘when minutes to rebuff some of it, he says he can- a corporation’ in item 2 ‘provides a consumer not take it. You are going to have a debate with a receipt or docket’. Is that the final about tax policy, and we will debate you eve- point of sale receipt or docket? Does it ex- rywhere. clude price tickets on items within the busi- Senator Conroy—I am happy to have a ness? debate; you were complaining about the time Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.42 wasting. p.m.)—Yes, it refers to the final point of sale Senator IAN CAMPBELL—What Labor only. have to do, if they want to be part of that de- 14504 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) have expressed and which I discussed with (1.42 p.m.)—Does the sample docket of the ACCC last week—I think, Senator Woolworths before you, Senator Conroy, Murray, you had already had to leave—was comply with item 2(3)(a) and item 4(3)(a)? the fact that the ACCC seemed to believe that Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.43 they have a new way of interpreting the law: p.m.)—I am just taking advice, but my early that is, allowing averaging. Whereas the tax suspicion is that, because the individual law and most of the law that we deal with is amounts of GST are not displayed, it proba- on individual items, the ACCC seem to be- bly does not. But we welcome where Woolies lieve that they have the power to give per- are going. It is a step in the right direction. mission for companies to break the law in We just wish that they would disclose it for their guidelines. In my view, the fact of their each individual item so that we could judge guidelines allowing averaging of GST across what the GST was, not a total down the bot- items is the very reason we need to have the tom. But it is a step in the right direction and individual items itemised. My apologies to we welcome it. Senator Cooney. We are being more specific than the Woolies document at the moment Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) where just a total of GST is incorporated at (1.44 p.m.)—I am a bit confused because ear- the bottom. That does not allow you to make lier Senator Cooney said that it did comply the decisions you need to. with (3)(a). I am given to understand that you are saying it does not comply with (3)(a). More importantly, if companies have aver- aged out costs in their calculations that will Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.44 not be revealed. You could actually not be p.m.)—We do not think so. I am happy for able to work out how much GST increase has Senator Cooney to speak for himself. You happened because the ACCC are advising have only posed the question now and I have companies that they have the ACCC’s per- to confess, with no disrespect to Senator mission to average out their costs across dif- Cooney, that I did not hear all of his contri- ferent items—in my view, in breach of the bution. I do not believe it would probably law. They are not prepared to specify what meet this requirement, but I am happy to let the items are. They are not prepared to iden- Senator Cooney speak for himself. tify how it can happen or whether there is an Senator COONEY (Victoria) (1.44 upper or lower limit. They are not prepared to p.m.)—It does show the amount of the GST do a whole lot of things on this issue other where it says ‘1.76’. But I understand Senator than spuriously refer to the fact that there is a Conroy says that that ought to be broken up section that says ‘any other relevant matters’. to show how much the GST is on each indi- This was a debate which I had with the vidual item such as the Coke, the toothbrush, ACCC at some length on Friday. the antiperspirants, the beef steak pies and In our amendment, we seek that each indi- the Bulla ice-creams. That is a reasonable vidual item have the price and have the GST proposition. The percentage of GST it shows amount and then totals as well. That is the on the goods is just a little over nine per cent. intent of where we are going. We move it in It would be useful to know how much is on the form we have for the very reason that the each item. It would also of course be useful ACCC are, in my view, encouraging compa- for a tax department to know how much nies to break the law. Woolworths or anybody else had collected, to see how much should be paid over at the Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) relevant time. The docket you have there (1.48 p.m.)—Senator Conroy, I am a bit un- shows the amount of the GST, but Senator clear as to what the phrase ‘the amount of the Conroy’s proposition is that it ought to show GST’ in paragraphs (3)(b) of items (2) and the amount of GST on each item as distinct (4) means. Does it refer to each individual from the total amount. item or to a total? Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.46 Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.48 p.m.)—One of the areas of concern which I p.m.)—That would require that it indicates an individual item, as per standard. We are refer- Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14505 ring to the amount of the GST per ‘taxable This is an amendment that is designed to supply’, which is an individual item. This is try and protect freedom of speech and try and why, as I say, I think the ACCC are actually protect legitimate debate on this issue. I am outside of the law and are recommending to sure the government do not intend for Mr companies that they breach the law—not Harvey’s or Mr Warburton’s comments to be their guidelines but the law. captured by the legislation. But on our under- Amendments not agreed to. standing, our reading and our advice we are concerned that individuals, because of their Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.49 having more than one hat, could actually be p.m.)—by leave—I move: caught up. I am interested in any government (1) Schedule 1, item 2, page 3 (line 12), after advice or interpretation on this. I am inter- “commerce”, insert “, for the purpose of ested in Senator Murray’s views. Hopefully, price exploitation”. we can get this resolved so that there is no (2) Schedule 1, item 9, page 6 (line 10), after confusion. “commerce”, insert “, for the purpose of price exploitation”. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the I am sure that the government did not intend Minister for Communications, Information this, but it is possible with this legislation as Technology and the Arts) (1.52 p.m.)—The it is currently worded that free speech and provision is quite clearly restricted to conduct debate could actually be caught up. For ex- in connection with the supply of goods or ample, Gerry Harvey is consistently making services. It is not aimed at political comment. his views known on the impact of the GST I think it is quite specific under its existing and he is just making general comments. We wording and requires no amendment. are seeing a lot of robust debate in the public domain by retailers. Dick Warburton has two Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) hats in this debate: he has his hat as chair of (1.52 p.m.)—Senator Conroy, I appreciate David Jones and he has a hat as chair of the that you and the Labor Party have been ex- Business Coalition for Tax Reform. With this ceptionally busy over the last two weeks but amendment we are seeking to ensure that it would have been helpful if we had received legitimate debate by Mr Warburton or Mr these amendments prior to this occasion. To Harvey or anybody else is not caught up in make a decision on them quickly is difficult. the ‘false and misleading’ provisions of this Essentially, if I understand you correctly, amendment. By saying ‘engaged in trade and you are saying—and unfortunately I do not commerce’, both Mr Warburton and Mr Har- have the Trade Practices Act with me—that vey could be swept up in an all- this is a free speech amendment and you do encompassing way for some of their state- not want to unnecessarily restrain organisa- ments. It may be that they believe some of tions, whether business, community or any their statements. I think Mr Harvey is in to- other, from making statements about the new day’s papers saying people should have tax system. Frankly, I would need some ad- bought computers and other things—funnily vice on what this means. I would need a enough, Senator Campbell—and other elec- fuller response from the parliamentary sec- trical items prior to 1 July because he be- retary, who has his advisers nearby, on the lieves, on his information, that the prices will true effect of this and whether there is any probably go up. He may be right; he may be downside. I would need a fuller response wrong. It is a legitimate argument for the from my own adviser. Frankly, I would like ACCC, for Senator Kemp, Senator Campbell to hear a little more of an exposition from and myself, to engage in that debate outside you, Senator. this chamber. But it is not legitimate for him Senator CONROY (Victoria) (1.54 to possibly be caught up because of the trade p.m.)—I will take up Senator Murray’s invi- and commerce provisions of this amendment tation. We are concerned that Mr Fels has and be attacked by the ACCC and beaten into been for some time now accusing various silence because he has engaged in legitimate groups, be they business or other community public debate about the impact of the GST. groups, of being engaged in a propaganda 14506 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 campaign of their own about the compliance your business—in other words, it is not a cost issue, for instance; about how much the brochure being published in the Sunday Tele- embedded cost savings can be passed on. I graph or advertising on the television; it is am concerned. Last week I asked Mr Grant just engaging in public comment—then the from the ACCC, ‘What compliance costs did law differentiates between public comment in you include as a percentage of costs in your the newspapers and being actively engaged in calculations?’ He said, ‘It is about 0.1, maybe promoting your goods through trade and 0.2. We are being flexible.’ I asked, ‘What commerce.’ We are simply seeking to a de- happens if it’s more?’ And he said, ‘They gree to curtail Allan Fels’s capacity to intimi- could not be—we have seen no estimates.’ date business—which is what many busi- Many business groups, from Mr Ray Re- nesses are saying is happening at the moment gan to the Business Coalition for Tax Re- in terms of the impact. So we are keen to en- form, have pointed out that both the estimates sure that legitimate public policy debate is of the ACCC and the government of the true not unduly influenced by the threat of Allan compliance costs of introducing the GST are Fels and $10 million fines. We are certainly far beyond the government’s or the ACCC’s receiving comments along those lines about current calculations. I would hate to see a how they are being threatened by Allan Fels situation where companies are afraid of and by other officers of the ACCC. We do speaking out, as is the case now. A number of not believe that there is any place for that in a companies have contacted me in recent times. democracy. We should be able to have busi- They would like to debate the ACCC on their nessmen, charities or any other organisation level of compliance costs but they are terri- having public policy arguments with the gov- fied that, if they stand up and say, ‘Our com- ernment. We do not want to see them con- pliance costs are much greater,’ they will strained by the legislation. have the wrath of the ACCC brought down This is a very small and simple amend- on them and the threat of $10 million fines. ment. We do not believe it is highly contro- Therefore, unfortunately, we are seeing a versial. I know the government has got up situation in Australia today where legitimate and said, ‘No, there is no need for this. They debate is being stifled because people are couldn’t possibly be captured.’ Brave people afraid to stand up to the ACCC and argue like Harvey Norman and Mr Harvey are with the ACCC about the level of compliance standing up and saying, ‘This is the case; the costs. government line is wrong.’ Michael Delaney The question of embedded costs comes from the Motor Trades Association is saying into it, as well. Many companies are coming that the government and the ACCC’s line is to us, Senator Murray, and possibly even to wrong, but if the ACCC choose to interpret you seeking Democrat assistance in these the powers as they stand, they risk prosecu- issues. I am sure you are open-minded on tion. We are seeking to differentiate between these sorts of issues. They are saying that the trade and commerce and public comment and sorts of estimates that are being tossed public policy debate. around by both the government and the Progress reported. ACCC are an absolute nonsense. They are MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS not going to make these cost savings in six months or 12 months. Some of these costs Senator HILL (South Australia—Leader may take years to come through, but they are of the Government in the Senate) (2.00 being told that they have to anticipate the p.m.)—by leave—I inform the Senate that costs. They want to engage in public debate Senator Newman, the Minister for Family but they are afraid of the ACCC and the and Community Services, the Minister As- sisting the Prime Minister for the Status of sweeping nature of these powers. Women, the Minister representing the Min- What this amendment is seeking to do is ister for Veterans’ Affairs and the Minister not too complicated. It is just simply saying, representing the Minister for Defence will be ‘If you are making comment that is not in- absent from the Senate this week. She will be volved in the trade and commercial aspect of attending a special session of the United Na- Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14507 tions General Assembly, Beijing Plus Five, in ‘Answer the question.’ Either you do not New York. During Senator Newman’s ab- want to hear what Senator Hill has to say or sence Senator Herron will be the Minister you are just not giving him an opportunity to representing the Acting Minister for Family answer. and Community Services, I shall be the Min- Senator HILL—I was just putting this in ister representing the Minister for Veterans’ context in terms of Labor’s deplorable record Affairs and the Minister for Defence and I which we inherited—$10 billion of deficit, shall answer questions on women’s policy. $80 billion of debt run up in the last five QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE budgets of the Labor government. That is Economy: Foreign Debt what the Howard government inherited. But the Howard government has taken the diffi- Senator COOK (2.01 p.m.)—My question cult economic decisions, which have resulted is to Senator Hill, representing the Prime in strong economic growth since then— Minister in the Senate. Does the minister re- call the Prime Minister proclaiming in 1995: Senator Carr interjecting— I can promise you that we will follow policies The PRESIDENT—Senator Carr, to say which will ... bring down the foreign debt. you are shouting would be an understate- Given this very clear commitment, how does ment. You are disorderly. the minister explain that since his govern- Senator HILL—Those decisions have re- ment took office in 1996 foreign debt has sulted in strong economic growth, strong jobs grown from $194 billion to a staggering $256 growth, low interest rates, low inflation—an billion, the highest ever on record? economic success story which has been the Senator Herron—What about as a per- envy of the world. That is what Senator Cook centage of GDP, Peter? is trying to talk down today: an economic success story that is the envy of the world. Senator COOK—About 43 per cent. How This government got through the Asian eco- is it that the government has allowed the debt nomic crisis without a hiccup because it had burden on each Australian to increase from taken the hard economic decisions, reined in $10,000 per person, which Peter Costello Labor’s excesses in expenditure and got the railed against in 1995— accounts in order. For Senator Cook, who The PRESIDENT—Mr Costello. takes something of an interest in these mat- Senator COOK—which Mr Costello ters, let me start with the current account railed against in 1995—thank you, Madam deficit and I will finish with the foreign debt, President, and here is the punchline—to to put it in context, which I think he would $13,433 today? like. Senator HILL—Madam President— Australia’s current account deficit has Senator Ian Campbell—It is a pretty been falling in trend terms and is expected to good punchline when you have to say when it be lower in 2000 and 2001. Exports are is coming. growing strongly, and this is forecast to con- tinue. The outlook for export prices is also Senator HILL—That is what I was going positive. That is all good news on the current to say. It is a pretty good punchline if you account deficit. I will move across to the is- have to announce it as the punchline. It does sue of foreign debt, the most important remind us, however, of Labor’s appalling measure of which—and I can remember La- economic record in government. All Austra- bor talking to us about it—is the foreign debt lians will understand that, when this govern- servicing ratio. The foreign debt servicing ment came to office, it inherited a domestic ratio, which is net debt interest repayments as deficit of over $10 billion. a proportion of exports, was 10.2 per cent in Senator Cook—Answer the question. the March quarter 2000, around half of the The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator peak level of 20 per cent reached under La- Cook, you have asked a question, a few sec- bor in the September quarter of 1990. If ever onds have passed and you are shouting out, the Senate wants a demonstration of how the 14508 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 economy has improved under the coalition herited by this government, has been abso- government, that is a great figure—it has lutely outstanding. been halved since this government has been Economy: Tax Reform in office. It has averaged 10.4 per cent since March 1996 compared with 13.9 per cent Senator BRANDIS (2.08 p.m.)—My under Labor in the previous 13 years. question without notice is directed to the As- sistant Treasurer, Senator Kemp. Will the Under Labor, net foreign debt as a propor- minister outline why tax reform is crucial to tion of GDP increased from 14 per cent in the continuing prosperity of the Australian June 1983 to 38 per cent in March 1996 and economy? Is the minister aware of any alter- was 41 per cent in the December quarter of native policies to the government’s landmark 1992. What a deplorable background to reform of the Australian taxation system? which Senator Cook asks his question. Under the coalition, net foreign debt as a proportion Senator KEMP—I thank Senator Brandis of GDP has risen much less significantly, for that extremely important question. I think from 38 per cent in the March quarter to 41 I speak on behalf of all of the Senate—cer- per cent. Since the government came to of- tainly the Senate on this side—in welcoming fice in 1996, I remind the Senate, it has re- you to the chamber. You are a man of great paid around $50 billion in general govern- talent, and we look forward to the contribu- ment net debt. So the story of this govern- tion that you are going to make to this cham- ment, which put the accounts in order by ber. In view of the background of Senator reining in excesses, is that it has been able to Brandis, it is not surprising that he goes repay some $15 billion of the debt that it in- straight to the key issues. He comes into the herited from Labor. (Time expired) chamber, he has been here an hour, and he is straight onto the key issues. Senator COOK—I ask a supplementary question. I note that the minister did not actu- Senator Brandis would know that tax re- ally answer the first part of my question. form is an essential element in ensuring the ongoing prosperity of the Australian econ- Senator Ellison—Yes, he did. omy. It will reward Australian workers, who Senator COOK—No, he did not. The have endured very high rates of personal in- question is: does the government’s promise to come tax; it will encourage Australian ex- bring the foreign debt down still stand? Are porters to take on the world without the bur- you going to stand by that promise, or has it den of the wholesale sales tax; and it will been shelved? If it still stands, can the min- provide more choice for families. It is indeed, ister nominate a time by which the foreign Senator Brandis, a great package. On one debt will actually start coming down rather side of the political divide, you have a gov- than continuing to increase? ernment which is delivering real reform to Senator HILL—It was Labor in office the Australian people. I have to say that, on that continually set targets and was embar- the other side of the chamber, you have rassed by targets. A target that you do not probably one of the most confused opposi- intend to keep in government is not worth a tions in Australian history. They cannot even thing. What is important is to put in place work out when they are going to announce sound economic policies which result in rec- their own tax policy. Last year, in a debate in ord economic growth, strong jobs growth, this very chamber, Senator Sherry said: low interest rates and benefits to all Austra- The Labor Party’s tax policy will be presented to a lians. Yes, the foreign debt has risen slightly national conference which is now scheduled for because the dollar has weakened slightly, as July-August this year ... That is when our tax pol- Senator Cook knows. But, as I said, the debt icy will be presented ... servicing ratio, which is the important guide- That is what Senator Sherry said. We were line in this regard, has not. The record of this not sure about this, so we looked at the government in relation to the fundamental shadow Treasurer’s position. The shadow economics of this country is excellent and, Treasurer had announced that they were go- compared with the Labor mess that was in- ing to try to hold back the details of their tax policy until closer to the election. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14509

It is well known in this chamber that I al- Senator ELLISON—The government has ways pay particular attention to what Senator a lucrative way of dealing with government Cook says. This is what Senator Cook said— advertising, and that is by placing govern- and, Senator Brandis, you will be interested ment advertising through one agent. We get in this—in Senate estimates: the best possible price for taxpayers’ money. How we then deal with reforming the tax system We, as a government, approach television ... is best described by rolling it back, and we will stations, radio stations and print media and only know ... when we are in government ... get the best possible rate by dealing with The Senator Sherry position is that the tax government advertising as a whole. That policy is going to be announced at the next makes perfect sense and it is commercially conference, due in a couple of months. The sound. What Channel 9 does or does not do is shadow Treasurer’s position is that it will be its own business. I would suggest Senator announced closer to the election. Senator Faulkner make his inquiries with Channel 9. Cook’s position is that we will have to wait But I can say that we, as a government, are until after the next election. Assuming that intent on informing the people of Australia the Labor Party by some gross mischance about the new tax system and about tax re- may sneak into office, only then, according to form, and peak TV time makes sense. In Senator Cook, will they announce their tax modern Australia, you use modern methods policy. to communicate with the Australian people, and that includes television, print media and There is confusion in the Labor Party’s po- radio. In case Senator Faulkner had not no- sition and it was further confused, I might ticed, a lot of people watch television at cer- say, on the weekend. All of us know how tain time slots—Sunday night or Saturday dominated the Labor Party are by the trade night perhaps—and they are what we are unions. Mr Doug Cameron on the weekend looking at to get maximum communication announced Labor Party policy, I suspect, with the Australian people. when he said that the roll-back would go a long way. On the other hand, Lindsay Tanner, Senator FAULKNER—Madam Presi- the financial spokesman for the Labor Party, dent, I ask a supplementary question. The thinks that the roll-back will be only minimal minister invites me to ask Channel 9 this and has been quoted in the press as saying question. It is this minister who is account- that. We have total confusion in the Labor able for government advertising, and I ask Party ranks on what their policy is on tax, him again, as the chair of the ministerial which is not surprising. But, Senator Brandis, council on government advertising: is it true what we do know is that the ALP will not that the government paid for exclusive rights repeal the GST. That is what we know. (Time to peak viewing time on Sunday, 28 May for expired) its GST chains advertising? I ask further: is the minister aware that an advertising time- Goods and Services Tax: Advertisement slot during a peak viewing time on a Sunday Senator FAULKNER (2.13 p.m.)—My night costs in the order of $120,000? Is he question is directed to Senator Ellison, the aware that a television network usually Special Minister of State. Can the minister, as charges an extra premium of 50 per cent to the chair of the ministerial council on gov- 100 per cent on top of this for an exclusive ernment advertising, advise whether it is true agreement? Does this mean that the govern- that the government paid for exclusive rights ment used up to $240,000 of taxpayers’ to peak viewing time on Sunday, 28 May for money not only to inflict its chains ads on its GST chains advertisements? Can he con- Sunday night viewers but also to shut out the firm if this resulted in Channel 9 refusing to message about the Prime Minister’s broken run the beer excise commercials which were promise on beer prices? If he does not know, scheduled to begin on that night? Will the will the minister take it on notice? minister advise the Senate who took out these Senator ELLISON—Senator Faulkner is exclusive rights and on whose authority this really struggling. He is trying to say that the was done? government should not use prime time televi- 14510 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 sion to communicate information on tax re- Since we introduced our reforms to the in- form. What Channel 9 was going to do with dustrial relations system, real wages have its timeslot is its own affair. We engage con- gone up by about 3.4 per cent over the last sultants to purchase prime time spots for the four years. What happened under Labor? Of government, and so we should. If we did not, course, real wages went down. There were we would not be getting the best deal possi- falls in real wages during the 1980s to the ble. What better time to communicate with point where Mr Keating was boasting about the Australian people than prime time televi- the fact, because that was his way of con- sion. taining inflation. We know Senator Collins is Industrial Relations: Australian Work- a wholly owned subsidiary, but I was inter- place Agreements ested to note in the paper on the weekend that Senator Conroy is now being sponsored by a Senator GIBSON (2.16 p.m.)—My ques- corporate giant. We are not told by whom, so tion is to the Minister representing the Min- one has to presume that this is the TWU in ister for Employment, Workplace Relations action. They are replacing the AWAs with and Small Business, Senator Alston. Will the MSAs: master-servant agreements, where the minister inform the Senate of the success of trade union movement decides whom it the government’s Australian workplace anoints, tells them what their riding instruc- agreements? How have these agreements and tions are, and they go out and deliver them. other initiatives improved living standards and job security for Australian workers? Is What has been the response to this abject the minister aware of any alternative policy capitulation? The Sydney Morning Herald, proposals, and what would be the impact of which is not noted for slavishly endorsing these if they were implemented? our policy approaches, said that Mr Beazley was confronted by two challenges last Senator Mackay interjecting— Wednesday night, failed both of them and Senator ALSTON—I notice the Labor resorted to pre-emptive capitulation to avoid Party are excruciatingly sensitive on this is- humiliation on the conference floor. That sue, as Senator Mackay has just confirmed. pretty much says it in spades, and all of the The last thing they want is for you to be other newspapers have made it abundantly pointing out how beholden they are to the clear that that is their view as well. The Aus- trade union movement. The fact is that there tralian said: are over 100,000 AWAs, they are growing at ... the Opposition Leader has thrown up his hands the rate of about 3,000 a month, and they and proposed a return to the structure that ensured cater for the 80 per cent or more of the pri- union dominance of the debate prior to 1996 ... vate sector who do not want to belong to The Labor leader will be tagged as a union lackey trade unions. In fact, nearly 90 per cent of from now until the next election. small businesses do not belong to trade un- It goes on to say how the workplace has been ions. So why is it that the Labor Party take transformed as a result of our changes and this cap-in-hand approach? I think it is how there is much less confrontation because probably a bit of a misrepresentation to say union power has been reduced. they do not believe in AWAs completely; they certainly believe in them when it comes Senator Jacinta Collins—That is not to preselections. If you are an up-and-coming true! bright young thing, about the only reason you Senator ALSTON—Not true? All right, join the trade union movement these days is you write your letter to the Australian and in order to get preselection in the Labor explain why they are wrong in saying: Party. The AWAs provide the basis for the ... Australia’s industrial relations picture is less annual report to shareholders when you have confrontational, less involved with bullying and to go along and explain what you have done less aggressive than for decades. And that is be- to achieve the union outcomes. This is the cause the present Government has wound back the complete antithesis of what good policy influence of the unions. making should be about; it should be about You can get up at branch meetings and tell improving real wages. yourselves until you are blue in the face that Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14511 you are not doing what the unions tell you. It tax file numbers or financial details relating is just that no-one out there believes you. to any taxpayer or business. Complete rec- They all know that the only way to increase ords from the ABR, which will contain busi- productivity is through sensible industrial ness address details, will be available from 1 relations reforms—not the sort of cap-in- July. hand stuff that you lot believe in. It is no co- A single copy of a business’s own record incidence that something like 55 per cent of will be free. These records will not be avail- the Labor caucus are trade union officials. able for purchase in bulk. Charging a fee for How do you justify this? You are the party information from public databases is com- that talk about being inclusive and repre- mon. In addition to their free services, the senting all Australians, yet 70 per cent of Australian Bureau of Statistics and the Aus- your frontbench are trade union officials. tralian Securities and Investment Commis- Goods and Services Tax: Australian Busi- sion have for many years charged for detailed ness Number Records data based on compulsorily acquired infor- Senator LUNDY (2.21 p.m.)—My ques- mation. The ABR has been developed in re- tion is to Senator Alston, representing the sponse to the request from business for a Minister for Employment, Workplace Rela- simple and reliable means of identifying all tions and Small Business. Is it true the De- Australian businesses and to reduce red tape partment of Employment, Workplace Rela- in dealing with government. It will assist tions and Small Business intends to distribute trading both nationally and internationally. millions of ABN records containing detailed Senator LUNDY—Madam President, I taxpayer information in electronic format to ask a supplementary question. Thank you for private companies, upon request, for an ad- confirming that, Minister. Can you tell the ministrative fee? Can the minister confirm Senate, and I repeat, whether applicants for that businesses were not informed that this ABN numbers were informed, as part of the information would be distributed as part of a collection of that information, that a consoli- consolidated electronic database to anyone dated electronic database would be distrib- who asked for it? uted as a result of that? Were they informed? Senator ALSTON—The Department of Was their permission sought? Hasn’t the gov- Employment, Workplace Relations and Small ernment grossly abused this power to collect Business is not intending to sell information information by not informing applicants of to anybody. The government has decided that the intended uses of that information? access to the freely publicly available data in Senator ALSTON—No, the government the ABR would be made available via the has not grossly abused anyone. The basis on business entry point or on the ABR OnLine which the information was collected is web site. The government has also provided something on which I can obtain precise de- access to 10,000 records from ABR OnLine tails for you. In terms of ensuring that our to Dun and Bradstreet and other information approach on this issue is the same as it is for brokers to enable them to design systems the handling of government information gen- which can integrate with ABR information. erally, and particularly matter that is already Some of the information provided by busi- on the public record, it is perfectly consistent ness when they apply for an ABN will appear with precedent and certainly consistent with on the Australian Business Register. The our concern to ensure that people’s sensitive government is not profiting from selling the information is not disclosed publicly without information, because most of it is now freely their consent. available on the OnLine web site. Environment: Greenhouse Gases The government will be offering brokers Senator LEES (2.25 p.m.)—My question the opportunity to purchase bulk access to the is to the Minister for Industry, Science and information that is freely available. The fee Resources, Senator Minchin. At an interna- for this bulk access will be set purely to cover tional environment awards ceremony yester- administrative costs. The bulk access will not day, the Prime Minister acknowledged that involve access to addresses, phone numbers, 14512 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 the environment is an issue that commands urer. Given the response from Senator Al- the urgent attention of all people and all na- ston, can the minister confirm that the Taxa- tions. Today, World Environment Day, I ask tion Office authorised the Department of the minister: can he advise the many Austra- Employment, Workplace Relations and Small lians extremely concerned about the growing Business to distribute 10,000 individual level of Australia’s greenhouse gas emissions company records, collected for the purposes whether or not the government will have in of mandatory ABN registration, to a private place a greenhouse trigger before the Envi- consortium of Dun and Bradstreet and the ronment Protection and Biodiversity Conser- Commonwealth Bank? Can he inform the vation Act comes into effect in July? Senate precisely which fields of information Senator MINCHIN—I would have collected on the ABN application form were: thought that the question was more appropri- firstly, given to the Department of Employ- ately asked of the Minister for the Environ- ment, Workplace Relations and Small Busi- ment and Heritage, who is responsible for the ness; and, secondly, forwarded to Dun and Environment Protection and Biodiversity Bradstreet? Conservation Act. The government’s position Senator KEMP—Senator Lundy, as on this is well known, and there is common usual, gets her facts, or at least the implica- cause among us. Senator Robert Hill, as the tions which one can draw from them, quite minister, has been charged with the responsi- wrong. Let me make the point that there were bility, on behalf of the government, of con- a number of reports in the newspapers sug- sulting with all relevant stakeholders and gesting that the privacy laws had been state governments on the issue of a trigger on breached by the tax office. They are com- greenhouse as part of the federal govern- pletely false. The tax commissioner said this ment’s responsibilities under the new Envi- recently in relation to this matter: ronment Protection and Biodiversity Conser- Protected taxpayer information has not and will vation Act. Senator Hill will conduct those never be sold by the tax office. We strive to vigi- consultations with great vigour and quite lantly protect the privacy of taxpayer information. properly on behalf of the government. He This is the cornerstone of community confidence will report back to the government as a result in the Australian tax system. of his consultations. There was a report that the Privacy Commis- Senator LEES—Madam President, I ask a sioner was investigating the matter, in re- supplementary question. I understood that, as sponse to which the tax commissioner said: the minister for industry, this minister was Contrary to media reports today: the Office of the particularly interested in this issue, so I ask Privacy Commissioner has today confirmed that him about the timetable. When will cabinet no investigation has commenced. consider this issue for decision? Will he, as a The commissioner went on to say: member of cabinet, be actively supporting We have had discussions with the Privacy Com- this issue? missioner since November 1998 about the ABR Senator MINCHIN—It is no secret that and the ABN legislation, and we will continue to there are parts of Australian industry that discuss these matters to ensure that we comply wish to partake fully in the consultation proc- with the Privacy Act. ess with regard to the trigger and that under- He continued: stand what a potential trigger might mean for As I have announced previously and informed all future resource development projects in this businesses in writing, through the ABN registra- country. I have been liaising with industry on tion guide we mailed to them in November last that matter and discussing those concerns year, a limited range of publicly accessible infor- with Senator Hill as part of his consultations. mation would be available through the ABR. Goods and Services Tax: Australian Busi- Senator Conroy—What page was that ness Number Records on? Senator LUNDY (2.27 p.m.)—My ques- Senator KEMP—Madam President, tion is to Senator Kemp, the Assistant Treas- Senator Lundy asks a question and you give her the answer and— Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14513

Senator Crowley—You never answer the ronment and culture of the people of that part question. of the West Papuan province of Irian Jaya? Senator Abetz—That was unkind. Would the minister please detail the steps that are being required by Indonesia’s new Min- Senator KEMP—Yes, I thought that was ister for the Environment, Mr Sonny Keraf, very unkind of Senator Crowley—very un- and how Australia can give practical support kind indeed. It has also been reported that the to these measures to overcome the concerns government has profited from selling 10,000 of not only the people of the area but also the records from the ABR OnLine web site to Indonesian government? information brokers. This is misleading. A sample consisting of 10,000 ABR OnLine Senator HILL—The mine is, of course, records is being provided to information bro- regulated under Indonesian law. The regula- kers to enable them to prepare and test their tory environment is administered by the In- systems for the introduction of the tax re- donesian authorities. They, therefore, have form. However, the information brokers were the immediate and direct responsibility for not charged for this material, and they have this task. I am aware of significant criticisms, undertaken to destroy it on completion of the which have been around for some time, in testing. relation to the Freeport operation. Those criticisms from an environmental perspective Senator LUNDY—Madam President, I have related principally to the tailings regime ask a supplementary question. I asked the that is in place for that mine. In more recent minister a very specific question, and I will times, there have been criticisms in relation repeat it: can the minister inform the Senate to the way in which the rock overburden is precisely which fields of information were dealt with. In fact, there was a recent fatal collected on the ABN application form? We accident that resulted from a landslide asso- want to know, firstly, which ones were given ciated with the rock overburden. I am also to the Department of Employment, Work- aware of human rights concerns that have place Relations and Small Business and, sec- been expressed from time to time. ondly, which ones were forwarded to Dun and Bradstreet. Finally, Minister, can you It does seem that the new Indonesian min- confirm that these details were provided to ister and the Indonesian cabinet have at least Dun and Bradstreet before any of them were commenced a process of requiring better made publicly available? from Freeport. There have been additional, what are referred to as, environmental as- Senator KEMP—I indicate to the senator sessments—but I think they might be better that I did answer her question. She gets up described as environmental audits—in recent and gets very excited. The ABR OnLine web times on the requirement of the Indonesian site contains the following information for government. They have required of the mine each business: ABN, status of ABN, legal a comprehensive new plan before any new name, trading name—this is absolutely fasci- approval would be given for proposed addi- nating, I must say—entity type, tional dump sites for waste rock, and they state/territory, postcode, effective date of have been making comment in relation to the GST registration, deductible gift recipient necessary huge clean-up that will have to status, ACN or ARBN. I think that answers occur in relation to tailings. the question. It is good to see the new Indonesian gov- Irian Jaya: Freeport Mine ernment and the minister acting in this way. I Senator HARRADINE (2.32 p.m.)—My have been having some dealings with the question is to the Minister for the Environ- Indonesian minister in recent times and have ment and Heritage and Leader of the Gov- talked with him about ways in which Austra- ernment in the Senate, Senator Hill. Could lia can assist Indonesia in its very major envi- the minister advise what national and inter- ronmental challenges. He has not specifically national steps can be taken to require the raised with me the issue of Freeport and Freeport gold and copper mine to clean up its asked me for any Australian assistance in that act, which has drastically damaged the envi- regard. As Senator Harradine knows, this 14514 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 government has a policy to support its neigh- in that way and I think that in that way we bouring states in relation to better environ- can best help in relation to issues such as mental practices. We have produced manuals Freeport and other mines in Indonesia. of best mining practice, which we have Goods and Services Tax: Australian translated into other regional languages. We Business Number Records have had programs to assist regional gov- ernments in improving their mining regula- Senator MURPHY (2.39 p.m.)—My tory environments. Through our very well- question is directed to the Assistant Treas- known and respected practice and experience urer, Senator Kemp. Is it true that, while the in relation to mining operations, we seek to Taxation Office privacy regulations are clear support other governments of the region as in the protection of information supplied by they seek in turn to require the adoption of taxpayers, the business entry point is not better standards. This would apply in relation covered by these regulations and is subject to to Indonesia and Freeport if that were the the broader jurisdiction of the Privacy Act wish of the Indonesian government. 1988? Is it further true that, as a result of this, detailed information provided by the tax of- In relation to the human rights concerns, I fice to the Department of Employment, know that the Australian embassy visited Workplace Relations and Small Business has Irian Jaya in April to assess the situation less protection than that held by the tax office there. It continues to work with the Indone- itself? Can the minister inform the Senate sian government in strengthening its own whether the tax office is able under law to capabilities in dealing with human rights on-sell or distribute freely information it abuses, including through an assistance pro- collects from taxpayers without their specific gram for the Indonesian Human Rights approval? Commission. Senator KEMP—The material freely Senator HARRADINE—Madam Presi- available on the business entry point web site dent, I ask a brief supplementary question. is quite restricted and does not contain details Because Rio Tinto has a 12 per cent stake in which would directly result in someone’s Freeport, because Australian assets represent privacy being invaded. The focus of the 54 per cent of the profit of Rio Tinto and also freely available information is on the name of because of the long-term damage to Austra- the entity and its ABN and GST registration lia’s reputation, could the minister or the status. There is no address, just state and relevant minister speak directly to Rio Tinto postcode. There is no telephone number and about the matter? there is no email address. The information Senator HILL—I could speak to Rio available for free on the BEP web site con- Tinto but I think it is better to work through tains the sort of information that businesses the Indonesian authorities. As Senator Har- entering into transactions with other busi- radine himself said, Rio Tinto has only a 12 nesses need to know, such as the ABN and per cent interest in this company. It is pre- GST registration status of the entity they dominantly owned, as I understand it, in the want to deal with. The restricted information United States. The connection between Aus- that is freely available on the BEP web site is tralia and Rio Tinto being that Rio Tinto also the same information that was supplied to an owns assets in Australia is a rather strange information broker and bank who have a one to draw a responsibility upon Australia combined access site. It was provided for the from. I think our responsibility is as a good purpose of allowing them to design and test neighbour and supporter of Indonesia, par- systems to allow them to interface with the ticularly as it has been going through difficult BEP web site. That was the matter which we political and economic times, to help it in the discussed with Senator Lundy earlier today. future in building and strengthening its envi- As part of the agreement, the data cannot be ronmental infrastructure for assessment and on-sold to anyone, no charge was made for enforcement of good mining practice. My this material and the entities have undertaken preference would be to continue to deal with to destroy the data provided on the comple- the Indonesian minister and his government tion of testing. Full details in relation to an Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14515 entity’s entry in the Australian Business Environment: Natural Resources Register are to be made—and I stress this— Senator EGGLESTON (2.43 p.m.)—My according to law. In conclusion, any full ex- question is for the Minister for the Environ- tracts of information about an entity’s entry ment and Heritage, Senator Hill. Given that in the Australian Business Register will only today marks World Environment Day, will be available on application and payment of a the minister inform the Senate of the signifi- fee, which is prescribed by law, and on an cant steps the Howard government is taking entry by entry basis. Such information, I am to protect and enhance the natural environ- advised, will not be available in bulk. I think ment? that deals with the matters that Senator Mur- phy raised. Senator HILL—Australia has been hon- oured in being chosen by the United Nations Senator MURPHY—Not quite, Minister, Environment Program as the host of this because I asked you about people giving their year’s international celebration for World specific approval. Madam President, I ask a Environment Day and yesterday, in the host supplementary question. Minister, given that city of Adelaide, we had the announcement you did not answer that, would you now ac- of the winners of the inaugural Prime Minis- knowledge that the government has abused ter’s Environment Awards. UNEP also gave the trust business had in the tax office to keep international recognition to 14 environmental information supplied to it secure, private and achievers from around the globe by including for the use of the tax office only? them on the Global 500 Roll of Honour. We Senator KEMP—I do not think you were should be proud that three Australians were listening to the response that I gave to Sena- named among the 14 new laureates. They are tor Lundy. I do not blame you, to be quite the Australian Trust for Conservation Volun- frank— teers, Fuji Xerox Australia and the Senator Murphy—For what? For not lis- Nepabunna community from the mid-north of tening to you? South Australia. These award winners repre- sent Australian environmental excellence to Senator KEMP—I do not think you were the world and reflect our community’s enthu- tuning in to what Senator Lundy asked. siasm for on-ground environmental action. Senator Murphy—Was that it? The Howard government has sought to Senator KEMP—No, mainly because I build on this enthusiasm through the Natural think that when Senator Lundy gets up and Heritage Trust and through unprecedented asks a question there is a bit of a switch-off effort in involving communities in protecting amongst people and I think that certainly and restoring our natural environment. We those on your side all seem to put their heads have already invested some $870 million in down and do something else. almost 9,000 projects across Australia. These The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, I projects have involved an estimated 300,000 would draw your attention to the question. Australians in a whole range of environ- Senator KEMP—Anyway, enough of mental efforts, including the restoration of that, Madam President. In response to Sena- degraded soils and waterways, protecting tor Lundy, I was quoting from a press release endangered species, cleaning up our coasts put out by the tax commissioner. I will just and beaches and replanting native vegetation quote again what I said: cover. Today I have been able to announce a further $2.1 million for projects to improve As I have announced previously and informed all water quality in South Australia’s Gulf St businesses in writing, through the ABN registra- tion guide we mailed to them in November last Vincent. While we are acting to improve the year, a limited range of publicly accessible infor- environment, Labor is reduced to leaking mation would be available through the ABR. Senate reports to gain cheap political head- (Time expired) lines on the issues affecting this important region. 14516 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

Australia also enjoys international recog- customers and those who have requested it’? nition as a leading recycler, as a promoter of Can the minister explain how the govern- marine creatures such as whales and dugong ment’s decision to authorise the onselling of and for its efforts to destroy ozone depleting taxpayers’ details contained in 2.5 million gases. We are seen as a constructive player in ABN applications, including the email ad- global efforts to protect world heritage areas, dress of businesses, is consistent with the to conserve migratory species and to reduce spirit and the letter of this code of conduct? the impact of global warming. Senator KEMP—I had the pleasure—I do The environmental credentials of the not know whether that is an appropriate use Howard government have even been recog- of the word—of being with Senator Conroy nised by the Australian Labor Party on World for four days last week during Senate esti- Environment Day. Queensland Premier, Peter mates. We traversed a vast range of issues Beattie, has announced that his government and questions, and some days we sat there for has finally agreed to cooperate on our request close to 14 hours. The truth of the matter is to expand the Great Barrier Reef Marine that any person who has to do that and has to Park, even though he has only agreed to 12 of face Senator Conroy and Senator Cook the 27 areas that we propose for inclusion. across the table deserves a medal! Senator This expansion was first proposed by the Conroy, I have answered the questions on coalition in our 1998 election policy and was what is available through the business entry repeated in the national oceans policy later in point. In relation to the code of conduct, I the same year. We wrote to Mr Beattie at the will check with the responsible minister. beginning of 1999 seeking his cooperation Senator Forshaw interjecting— and, having given up on him replying, were moving to unilaterally include the 12 areas. Senator KEMP—I will check with him, Mr Beattie, after dragging his feet for almost Senator. You go, ‘Oh, yeah.’ Mr Hockey, un- 18 months, has now said that this expansion like most of us over here, has some sort of is his government’s most significant envi- respect for you, so I will raise this with him. ronmental achievement. He is quoted as say- The chances are that you will get an answer ing that the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park from Mr Hockey, the responsible minister. will now be even greater—a line he pinched Senator CONROY—Madam President, I from our press release of January 1999. So, ask a supplementary question. Can the min- while we welcome his late conversion to this ister confirm that there was no opt-in ar- proposal, we remind him that he has only rangement offer to ABN applicants when gone halfway and that there are another 14 they were asked for their email addresses? areas that he should now move to have in- What explanation does the minister have for cluded within the park. Nevertheless, it is a the 2.5 million Australian businesses that welcome endorsement by the Labor Party of provided their email addresses solely to fa- the Howard government’s continued good cilitate electronic lodgment of their tax, not work on the environment. to get spams? Goods and Services Tax: Australian Senator KEMP—Senator, if you truly Business Number Records listened to the response that I gave to Senator Senator CONROY (2.48 p.m.)—My Lundy, you would have found that I have question is to Senator Kemp, the Minister dealt in detail with those matters. If an odd representing the Minister for Financial Serv- phrase was missed or if an extra sentence ices and Regulation. I refer the minister to the could have been put in, I will get back to you, ‘world-class code of conduct for Australian Senator. businesses operating over the Internet’, Cox Peninsula Transmitter: Sale which Mr Hockey unveiled on 18 May. Is the Senator BOURNE (2.51 p.m.)—My minister aware that a key recommendation of question is directed to the Minister repre- this code is to establish ‘a qualified opt-in senting the Minister for Foreign Affairs, arrangement for commercial email whereby Senator Hill. Is the minister aware that 78 businesses can only forward email to existing people were killed and hundreds injured last Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14517 week in religious violence between Chris- have to say, but I will see if the foreign min- tians and Muslims in Indonesia’s Maluku ister has got a view. province? In this light, what assessment was Goods and Services Tax: Information made of the appropriateness of leasing the Cox Peninsula transmission facility to the Senator WEST (2.54 p.m.)—My question evangelical broadcaster, Christian Voice? is to Senator Herron representing the Minis- What assessment was made of the probable ter for Family and Community Services. I impact on the region of their intended trans- ask: for financial years 1999-2000, 2000-01, missions, and what influence did the Depart- 2001-02 and 2002-03 what funds has the De- ment of Foreign Affairs and Trade have on partment of Family and Community Services the sale of this internationally significant fa- budgeted to spend on GST related promotion, cility? education and/or advertising? Senator HILL—We have had this debate Senator HERRON—I will have to get a number of times in the Senate, and we are back to the senator with the detail of that, but obviously all aware of Senator Bourne’s I think it is appropriate that we should boast strong views on the subject. about what has been achieved since we came into government in relation to health, which Senator Crowley—Not just hers. the question was directed at. Minister Senator HILL—She seems to have Wooldridge can take a great deal of pleasure shown a lot more interest in it than the Aus- in the fact that immunisation rates have im- tralian Labor Party, I have to say. As per proved so much in this country— usual, they seem to have come late to the Senator Faulkner—Madam President, I debate, one might say. I do acknowledge that raise a point of order. Senator Bourne has been genuinely interested in the subject for a long time. Senator Senator HERRON—Oh, Lurch gets to Schacht used to be interested, but he got de- his feet once again when it hurts. molished by Senator Bolkus and he has been Senator Faulkner—The question that rather quiet since then. The view of the gov- Senator West asked went to the question of ernment has been that other resources have the Department of Family and Community been adequate to transmit Radio Australia’s Services’ budget on GST related promotion, voice to the region. The decision to close the education and/or advertising. The minister facility was taken a long time ago, and noth- has admitted that he does not know the an- ing has substantially changed since then. swer and he has indicated that he will find an Senator BOURNE—I have a supple- answer. That is fine. But in that circumstance, mentary question, Madam President. I would given that the minister is unable to answer, like to re-ask the question I asked. What as- surely he ought to resume his seat and we can sessments have been made of the probable get on with the next question. He is now at- impact on the region of the intended trans- tempting to answer a question he was not missions, what assessments have been made asked. of the appropriateness of this broadcaster to Senator Kemp—On the point of order, broadcast from this facility and what influ- Madam President: the answer continued for ence did the Department of Foreign Affairs about 35 seconds, and Senator Herron has 3½ and Trade have on the sale of this facility? minutes available, so I think that Senator Senator HILL—I will see if I can get Faulkner has been exceedingly premature. further information from the Minister for The PRESIDENT—I think the minister Foreign Affairs, but it seems to be a legiti- needs to apply himself to the question that mate usage of the facility. I am sorry if I was asked. If there is anything further on that misinterpreted Senator Bourne’s question, of that he needs to add, he certainly may do so. which the emphasis now is whether the future Senator HERRON—Madam President, I use is an appropriate use in terms of broad- said I would take the question on notice, but casting a Christian message. I do not par- by the same token I think it is appropriate ticularly see anything inappropriate in that, I that I should say what we have achieved in 14518 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 the time we have been in office. I had not The PRESIDENT—I did draw Senator finished even one sentence. The point of Herron’s attention to the question. what I was saying is that I think it is appro- Senator HERRON—I think it is relevant, priate that we do explain what we have for example, to quote Peter Botsman, for- achieved— merly head of the Evatt Foundation and now Senator West—Madam President, I raise head of the Brisbane Institute. He said in re- a point of order, which goes to relevance. I lation to family and community services and am sure I said the Department of Family and social spending that John Howard has pre- Community Services, and the minister is now sided over higher levels of social spending as talking about health. These are two different a proportion of total government spending portfolios, and I am confused. than did the former Keating government The PRESIDENT—I am listening to during its entire term of office. what the minister has to say. It is extremely Senator Faulkner—I raise a point of or- difficult to hear with the amount of noise in der. With respect, Madam President, it is not the chamber. There is no ambiguity about the relevant for the minister to rave on about question that was asked, and the minister these matters in answer to a question that was may speak to the question and the department directed to the government’s spending on that was referred to, and I will call him if he GST promotion and advertising. It is not has anything to add to that particular issue. relevant, and I respectfully suggest that you Senator HERRON—I was leading in by should sit him down and shut him up. starting in relation to health care, because it is The PRESIDENT—I do not think I a very major plus. I have got three minutes, I would behave in that fashion, Senator, but, understand— Senator Herron— The PRESIDENT—Senator Herron, you Senator HERRON—Madam President, I do not have three minutes to just chatter on; would remind Senator Faulkner that Senator you have three minutes to answer the ques- Eggleston is on my side of the parliament, tion that was asked. and it only takes two doctors to certify some- Senator HERRON—Madam President, body. with respect, we have got a great story to tell, The PRESIDENT—Senator Herron— and I think it is important that we should do Senator HERRON—The manner in so. If it disturbs the other side, so be it. They which he is behaving, he had better be careful just do not want to hear what we have in rising to spurious points of order. achieved in family and community services as well. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Cook—I raise a point of order, Senator HERRON—As I said, we will Madam President. If the minister wants to take the question on notice. make a statement to the parliament about The PRESIDENT—Senator Herron, are what he believes the government has you speaking to the point of order? You rose achieved in community services, he should to speak to the point of order that Senator make one and let us debate it. This is ques- Faulkner raised. tion time and he is here to answer questions. Senator HERRON—I was speaking to It is not an occasion for him to go off on a the point of order. I think I have made my frolic about whatever it is that he wants to point. Now, in relation to the question, I will talk about in community services. If the gov- get back to the member about GST spending. ernment has got any courage, it will make a The PRESIDENT—I have not ruled on statement about that and we will have a the point of order. proper parliamentary debate. But meanwhile he should be drawn to order and made to an- Senator HERRON—Madam President, I swer the question. If he cannot, he should be think it is 3 o’clock. sat down. The PRESIDENT—Senator Herron, I advise you that you are called to answer the Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14519 question that has been asked of you. You in- The PRESIDENT—Order! There is far dicated that you had nothing to say on that too much noise in the chamber. and that you would seek further information Senator IAN MACDONALD—The La- about it. That is perfectly appropriate. There bor Party continues to oppose this govern- may be other matters that are relevant to that ment’s initiatives to provide real benefits to question. I am not persuaded at the present rural and regional Australia through tele- time that what you are saying relates to that. I communications. Announced last week was shall give you another opportunity to return $20 million to provide for local call Internet to the question that was asked by Senator access throughout Australia. That is some- West. thing that is very much needed by rural and Senator HERRON—I have completed regional Australians. Everywhere I go in ru- my answer. ral and regional Australia people ask for that. Rural and Regional Australia: Commu- This government is providing it. Individual nications local authorities, councils and local govern- ment associations have been very big winners Senator CALVERT (3.00 p.m.)—My from the announcements last week. Over question is to the Minister for Regional $8.3 million of the $65 million announced Services, Territories and Local Government, goes to councils right across Australia, coun- Senator Ian Macdonald. Will the minister cils which help in small communities. This inform the Senate of any recent grants made money will help to provide local government to regional communities under the federal services online, will provide greater access to government’s $464 million Networking the the Internet and will provide for job growth. Nation fund? In particular, will the minister What this government is doing in rural and outline how the latest instalment of funding regional Australia is in line with its policy to will assist local government to undertake provide, as far as possible, equitable access to regional telecommunication projects? service. It is in direct contrast to the Labor Senator IAN MACDONALD—I thank Party. Senator Calvert for that question. As a rural Senator Mackay—What do they call Pe- Liberal from Tasmania, Senator Calvert is ter Costello in the bush? ‘Bush tucker man’! very interested in rural policy and the things that the Howard government are doing for Senator IAN MACDONALD—I hear rural and regional Australia. As a result of the Senator Mackay screaming out at me as I announcements from the Networking the Na- speak. She takes me back to estimates a cou- tion fund last week, hundreds of rural com- ple of weeks ago, when we learnt what the munities will benefit from that funding of Labor Party were going to do with their poli- some $65 million which the Prime Minister cies for rural and regional Australia. Senator announced. This funding will fund over 100 Mackay admitted quite clearly and openly projects from the Networking the Nation that their policies for rural and regional Aus- program and will provide real communica- tralia would be made known after they were tions for rural and regional Australia. I often in government, and that is on the record. I say that you can expect rural and regional invite Senator Mackay to enter into the de- Australia to go ahead only if it has a quality, bate. She has not asked a question on rural world-class telecommunications system. The and regional Australia since 19 October last government are bent on doing that and we are century. I plead with her: throw forward doing it with direct opposition from the La- some ideas. But the Labor Party’s response bor Party. The Labor Party have opposed this is, ‘If you want our ideas on rural and re- program right from the very start. They op- gional Australia, you will not get them before posed the Telstra sale, fought it tooth and nail the next election. We’ll reveal those policies through this parliament and opposed all of only if we are in government.’ That is ap- the initiatives which will provide good tele- palling. By contrast, this government has the communications. policies for rural and regional Australia and it is putting them into effect with the an- Opposition members interjecting— nouncement just last week of this huge boost 14520 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 in funding for telecommunications in rural is able to be sold to people for $20 per rec- and remote Australia. ord. There is additional information that is Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask supposed to be kept confidential by the that further questions be placed on the Notice Taxation Office. Deciphering the misinfor- Paper. mation and the mess through three different estimates hearings and here today in the CENTENARY OF FEDERATION: JOINT chamber should not take too long, despite the SITTING government’s best efforts to confuse and The PRESIDENT (3.05 p.m.)—I previ- cloud the issue and to protect themselves ously informed the Senate that the Victorian from what is very obviously one of the most parliament had met in joint sitting to invite serious breaches of public trust. In business the houses of this parliament to meet in Mel- in this country there has been a dramatic loss bourne in May 2001. I now present to the of the faith and trust they had in the Taxation Senate the letter dated 11 May 2000 from the Office to keep information confidential. presiding officers of the houses of the Victo- What we have heard to date through the rian parliament, conveying the invitation of Senate estimates process is that Dun and those houses to the houses of the Common- Bradstreet and the Commonwealth Bank wealth parliament to meet in Melbourne on 9 were provided two weeks ago with up to and 10 May 2001 to commemorate the first 10,000 records of companies. The database sittings of the Commonwealth parliament on they used to compile this data was launched the occasion of the centenary of those sit- by Minister Reith some two weeks ago and is tings. called ABNsearch. It was a joint venture ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON between the Commonwealth Bank and Dun NOTICE and Bradstreet. That data was released by the Goods and Services Tax: Australian Department of Employment, Workplace Re- Business Number Records lations and Small Business two weeks ago, Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital Ter- prior to any of that information being avail- ritory) (3.06 p.m.)—I move: able on the Internet. In fact, the government only launched the Internet site, this Austra- That the Senate take note of the answers given lian Business Register, last Thursday, 1 June. by the Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts (Senator Alston) and the When the department stand up, when the tax Assistant Treasurer (Senator Kemp) to questions office stand up and when small business without notice asked by Senators Lundy, Murphy stand up and say, ‘We did not release any- and Senator Conroy today, relating to the privacy thing that was not publicly available,’ they of information contained in applications for Aus- are not telling the truth. That is because at tralian Business Numbers. that time that information was not available Today, we find ourselves viewing a very se- on the Internet. It only became available on rious situation relating to public trust by the the Internet on the first of this month, ac- businesses of this country who find them- cording to estimates evidence. selves mandatorily required to provide details If that is the case, what was made avail- about their businesses. That information be- able to Dun and Bradstreet and the Com- ing collected by the Australian Taxation Of- monwealth Bank? We know now that the fice has managed to find its way into the information available on the web site is quite hands of private companies. It is a tale of two limited. It allegedly does not include street departments: the Australian Taxation Office address, email address or ANZIC code, and the Department of Employment, Work- which is the industry classification. We know place Relations and Small Business. that because we have been to the web site The issue is this: there is information pub- now and had a look. Our question to the gov- licly available online now that relates to the ernment is: what was provided to Dun and details of those small businesses. There is Bradstreet and the Commonwealth Bank? We also information publicly available for pur- are of the view—and they are yet to inform chase that is not available on the web site: it the Senate of the truth of the matter—that Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14521 additional information was supplied, includ- The tax office itself has given the lie to the ing that which is available for sale but which allegations that the Labor Party made in is not on the web site. By that we are talking question time today and that Senator Lundy about the email address, the contact address has just repeated in her remarks. No less an and that ANZIC code. authority than the tax commissioner, Mr Mi- We also know, by virtue of very specific chael Carmody, has said that reports sug- complaints received from a constituent here gesting that privacy laws have been breached in the ACT and anecdotal complaints that we are completely false. Of course, what was are receiving from around the country, that being misunderstood initially in the Labor people have been contacted via their per- Party’s attack on this issue was the difference sonal, private and confidential phone num- between the Australian Business Number, the bers by Dun and Bradstreet. We very clearly Australian Business Register and the busi- allege—and the government are yet to dis- ness entry point. What needs to be under- prove it—that this information was distrib- stood is that the Australian Business Register uted initially by the tax office to the Depart- is a register of all businesses and other enti- ment of Employment, Workplace Relations ties which have an ABN. It also identifies and Small Business and to Dun and Brad- whether a business is registered for the goods street. There is a long and convoluted path- and services tax, is an income exempt tax way to follow. We want to know whether the charity or is a deductible gift recipient. It has email code of conduct has been breached, always been made clear, and indeed it is pro- because we believe it has. vided in the legislation, that some public in- formation on the Australian Business Regis- The government have been desperate to ter would be available to the public to allow retain some sort of e-credibility with regard people to find out who they are dealing with to email and laws relating to the information in terms of registered entities, whether those economy. This is the key issue. This infor- entities are registered for the GST or whether mation is more than just available through a those people are making gifts to legitimate search mechanism on the web site; the gov- charities. If people are going to comply with ernment have said they will distribute it, for the new tax system, business to business, an administrative fee, in the form of a con- they need to have this information available solidated database on a CD-ROM or via to them. download. We heard that in the estimates committee from the department of small As I said, the 1999 A New Tax System business. They have not made that knowl- (Australian Business Number) Act has al- edge available to small business and they ways provided for the public availability of have breached public trust. (Time expired) this information. This is explained in writing in the guide on pages 8 and 9 to those seek- Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) ing Australian Business Number registration. (3.11 p.m.)—Senator Lundy, in her eagerness It is also explained in the business entry point again to attempt some futile attack on the web site as to where businesses are able to government, shows how completely misin- register electronically for an Australian Busi- formed she is on this issue. She need only ness Number. It is important to understand have listened to the information provided by that on the web site the only business infor- the Australian Taxation Office to know that mation available to the public is the Austra- she is completely misinformed and is yet lian Business Number, its status, its legal again, as the opposition have been over name, the trading names if any, the state or weeks and weeks now, attempting to scare- territory in which the business is registered, monger in relation to the introduction of the its postcode, whether the entity is registered most beneficial tax changes that have ever for the goods and services tax or has gift de- been initiated in this country’s history. All the ductible recipient endorsement and, in the Labor Party can ever do about it is scare- case of companies, the ACN or ARBN. It is monger, scaremonger, scaremonger and cre- important to note that this information does ate false information. not include phone numbers. So, quite clearly, there is no breach of privacy with regard to 14522 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 the information that has been provided to briefing. It was because he did not want to people with regard to the ABR and ABNs. get a briefing. The reason that the Labor Party raises yet I have here a copy of a paper released just another furphy is because it is completely last month, in May, by Minister Joe Hockey confused with regard to issues of taxation and called Building consumer sovereignty in issues of tax reform. Only yesterday, we had electronic commerce: A best practice model another representative of the Labor move- for business. In it there is a litany of com- ment, the well-known Doug Cameron of the mitments that business should practise in e- AMWU— commerce. They include: Senator Ferguson—He’s not well known. ... enhances Consumer Sovereignty by giving Senator CHAPMAN—He is too well consumers information on what businesses should do when dealing with consumers over the Internet. known, unfortunately, this militant unionist The Best Practice Model aims to set out best Doug Cameron. He told Meet the Press that practice for business. the GST should be rolled back a long way. They now want the GST to be rolled back a ...... long way. In particular, he favours a complete It involves four key elements: protection, infor- exemption for clothing and a range of GST mation, choice and redress. The Best Practice Model aims to increase consumer confidence in rates, not a single rate GST. Rolling back the business to consumer ... electronic commerce. GST to exempt clothing would cost $2 bil- lion. Do the Labor Party tell us where the Adoption of the Model will help to ensure that consumers are adequately protected and have con- money is going to come from? Remember fidence in making online transactions. that they have guaranteed that the states will not lose any revenue out of their roll-back. Of ...... course they have not. We know very well that The adoption of the Best Practice Model will that money is going to come from an increase contribute to ensuring that consumers have effec- in other taxes and, importantly, an increase in tive protection and confidence in making online income taxation. It is no wonder that opposi- transactions. tion finance spokesman Lindsay Tanner has It goes on and on and on. The specific warned the Labor Party about committing clauses that deal with the debacle this gov- themselves in government to further roll- ernment has got itself into in its mindless backs of the GST because it would leave pursuit to spend billions of dollars of ordi- them short of funds for their proposed social nary taxpayers’ money to sell the GST, to programs. As I said, this particular roll-back break the Commonwealth electoral laws by proposed by this union heavy would cost taking illegally the Commonwealth Electoral some $2 billion in revenue. It is also impor- Act in the tax office, and finally to breach its tant to note that the Queensland Labor gov- own privacy guidelines and its own e- ernment state Treasurer, David Hamill, deliv- commerce guidelines to sell this GST at any ered an embarrassing blow to federal Labor cost are stated quite clearly here for commer- when he pleaded with the present govern- cial email in section 23, ‘Advertising and ment not to widen the GST-free net. (Time marketing’: expired) 23.1 Businesses should not send commercial Senator CONROY (Victoria) (3.16 e-mail except: p.m.)—The great lie in this debate is that the 23.1.1to people with whom they have an ex- government have broken no laws. They have isting relationship; or had the taxation commissioner putting out 23.1.2to people who have already said they statements telling everybody that no pro- want to receive commercial e-mail; tected taxpayer information would ever be How could any consumer who supplied the sold by the tax office. That is not what this tax office with their email address in the last debate is about. I found it astonishing in six months have possibly consented to any of Senator Kemp’s answer today that three days those? It gets worse for the tax office. Section after this very issue was raised he had no 23.2 goes on to say: Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14523

23.2 Businesses should have simple proce- lines issued just last month. He could not do dures so that consumers can let them know they it because he knows they are in breach of do not want to receive commercial e-mail. their basic requirements. These are the abso- That is colloquially referred to as ‘spam- lutely basic requirements of e-commerce best ming’. It is quite clear; they are simple pro- practice. (Time expired) cedures. Senator MASON (Queensland) (3.21 All we have heard from the other side and p.m.)—The other day I was looking at a book Senator Kemp is waffle, because they know written by the member for Werriwa, Mr that you had to dig through eight pages of the Latham, Civilising Global Capital. In the booklet that accompanied the ABN form. It is foreword, Mr Whitlam says that the Labor not on the ABN form. There are no simple Party has always been a party of reform, that procedures. Eight pages through they tell you it has always renovated ideas of public policy that some information may be on-sold. They throughout the history of this nation. do not tell you what it is. They do not give Senator Ferguson—It used to. you the option the government is telling businesses to give—to tick in the box saying, Senator MASON—It used to, indeed. ‘Yes, I am prepared to have my information That is quite right. It no longer does. It is on-sold.’ What happened yesterday to Peter simply the party of reaction. I was sitting Reith on the tele? He got pinged good and here scribbling some notes down and I proper. What did he say? He said, ‘We’ve got thought I would give a general outline of La- the Privacy Commissioner having a look at bor Party policy before I get to the issue of it.’ What did Senator Kemp and Senator Al- privacy. I was thinking to myself: Ben Chi- ston say today? They said, ‘No, he’s not.’ fley used to talk about socialism, Whitlam Any lie, just to get out of being caught on used to talk about social democracy then national tele misleading the Australian pub- Keynesianism, Mr Hawke used to talk about lic. He went on to say, ‘I’ll certainly be hav- corporatism and consensus, then Mr Beazley ing a close look at it.’ What have we heard used to talk about pragmatism. Now what is today? Nothing. left? The ALP only talks about opportunism and not much else. Senator Sherry—Are you sure that This is another scab lift. The ALP is again wasn’t Joe Hockey? trying to extract as much political gain as Senator CONROY—No. Even Mark possible from necessary reform. I accept that Paterson, the government muppet on the the privacy issue is a vital one in the country. GST, said, ‘Most individuals would not have In fact, I am delighted because it is great that understood they were an entity. I would not the Australian Labor Party is again adopting have thought an individual receiving this liberal democratic ideas. It is a good thing. would have believed their home address was We on this side have always said that the going to be publicly available.’ This is the state should serve the individual rather than government’s main muppet on the GST. It is the individual serve the state. For that reason the one person they push out every day of the we have always been great protectors of pri- week to support the GST. vacy. It is concurrent with our ideology: the The tax office assistant commissioner in individual is always above the state. charge of the ABN, Greg Dark, said on Fri- Senator Chapman spoke directly about is- day, ‘We’ve been observing the law. The law sues relating to privacy in the Australian says the email addresses will be available on Taxation Office. He put it very well and very the register for a $20 fee.’ Well, where is the lucidly. Perhaps the most important thing he choice? Where are the government making mentioned was that the legislation—that is, the tax office stick to the same rules they the A New Tax System (Australian Business want business to stick to? They are hypo- Number) Act 1999—has always provided for crites on this issue. They know they are at the public availability of this information. fault. Senator Kemp took the question on This was explained in writing in the ABN notice. He has had three days to find a copy registration guide and is also on the business of the government’s own best practice guide- 14524 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 entry point web site where businesses register Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (3.25 for the ABN. p.m.)—I think we are discussing, in response Senator Kemp and then Senator Chapman to the so-called answers from Senator Kemp mentioned the full extent of the publicly to my colleague Senator Lundy, the revela- available information which will be held in tion of the making available of a range of the ABR and will be available from 1 July new data to anyone in this country, or over- only to those paying $20 per record for an seas for that matter, that was not available extract and 10 cents for any additional pages. prior to the introduction of the goods and That is really the point. There is nothing new services tax in the format—and I think that is about this. It is just another scab lift. That is very important to understand—that is avail- the depressing part about this. These are the able through the tax office. Up until this point things available: ABN, date of effect of the in time, I was not aware that we had in this registration, legal name, entity type, trading country a database involving 2½ million in- or business name, postal address for service dividuals involved in business, most of of notices and correspondence, main business whom were not on a business database up address, email address for service of notices until this time. Through that access a range of and correspondence, Australian company information is available including, most im- number or Australian registered body num- portantly, email addresses. The contributors ber, name of the public officer or the trustee to this debate, including Senator Kemp in his of a trust, GST registration status and date of attempt to answer the questions, fairly glibly effect, deductible gift recipient status and read out the list of information that was date of effect, date of effect of reinstatement available. Some of it is innocuous but the to the Australian Business Register and in- provision of email addresses is quite critical, dustry code. I think, for fairly obvious reasons. The use of email is a massive new marketing tool in this The Australian Labor Party are Australia’s country. Why else would the companies that oldest political party. They were a great party have purchased this material want it other of reform. But since my time in the Senate— than to access the email database? 11 months now—all they have had to offer to the Australian people are rejections of things With the GST and the registration for they know this country has to have. The ABN numbers we have got well over two greatest threat to Australian democracy is million individuals and businesses, for which not, in fact, a Labor victory; it is an Austra- this information is available, being registered lian Labor Party victory by default, because for the first time. The old wholesale sales tax they have nothing left to add. The Australian that is often derided by the government was Labor Party know there has to be indirect tax; simple, at least in terms of the number of they know there has to be a reform of the collection points. But we have now well over taxation system, and deep in their hearts, if two million new tax collectors. I think that is they are returned to government, they know one of the important issues in this debate that they will sell Telstra—we know that and about the availability of information. This they know that. will be a very powerful marketing tool for the commercial organisations that choose to ac- Senator Carr—You know that is not true. cess the information. Senator MASON—That is the sad thing But there is a second and very important about it. I would not mind if we had an hon- related issue to this. It is taking the data that est policy debate here. Senator Carr and I is being made available by the tax office and disagree on a lot of things but I will say this: then cross-marrying that information with at least he stands up for something. The ALP other publicly available records, particularly stand for absolutely nothing in this place ex- telephone numbers. So we have 2½ million cept objections to policy that in their heart of ABN numbers, presumably close to that hearts they actually believe in. The greatest number of email addresses available for the threat to democracy in this country is a Labor first time in this form, together with the mar- Party victory by default and that is a very great shame. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14525 rying of other information. This will form a First, let us look at the Australian of 2 May, massive new marketing and promotional tool. and an article by Michelle Gilchrist. The It would not be so bad if the businesses headline is: ‘BBC pips Australia for ear of that were registering for an ABN number Indonesia’. We find that in Indonesia alone, knew about it, but they did not. I have the which is the area that is being surveyed here, form here, an eight-page form, an application Radio Australia had a listening audience on for registration for the new tax system. With- short wave of four per cent while Cox Penin- out filling in this form and completing it, you sula was turned on. In 1997 it went down to do not have an ABN number. Of course you 1.1 per cent and it has gone up to 1.8 per can refuse to do it, but then you will be hit cent. That is still pretty pathetic. It is no- with a 48.5 per cent tax. So effectively you where near the four per cent it had while Ra- have to complete this form otherwise there is dio Australia was turned on in short wave to a severe tax penalty. that region. We can put aside the issue of 2½ million Secondly, two diagrammatic maps put out mainly small businesses and individuals by Radio Australia show the range of the having to fill out this form. It is eight pages short-wave facility from Cox Peninsula and long. It says on the back of the form that it the range of the other short-wave facilities should take you 40 minutes to complete. But available, one from Shepparton and the one nowhere on the form that these people have which is currently being leased at huge cost to fill in does it make it clear—it just does outside Australia by Radio Australia. If you not tell them—that their email addresses will look at those two diagrams you will see that be made available or sold to promotional in no uncertain terms Radio Australia is do- companies. Nowhere does it even refer to the ing nowhere near as well—nothing like as public access to this information. That is a well—as it possibly could have with the fa- critical point. You should not have to go to cility from Cox Peninsula. I will seek leave a the guide to registration or go to another bit later, in about three minutes, to table those document. We all know the reality for most two diagrams. small businesses—they are struggling to keep The importance of Radio Australia cannot up with the GST paperwork, let alone having be overestimated. I cannot overestimate to to cross-reference, to more documentation, the Senate how important the signal is from more paperwork. Radio Australia to Australia’s image and in- Question resolved in the affirmative. fluence in the region. Sir Robert Menzies in 1950 established Radio Australia in its cur- Cox Peninsula Transmitter: Sale rent form as part of the ABC in order to en- Senator BOURNE (New South Wales) sure the broadcasting of a reliable source of (3.31 p.m.)—I move: news and current affairs to our neighbours in That the Senate take note of the answer given this region. It is still doing that but it is whis- by the Minister for the Environment and Heritage pering to the world at the moment. It will (Senator Hill), to a question without notice asked continue to whisper until they have another by Senator Bourne today, relating to Radio Aus- facility, or until they have available to them tralia and the Cox Peninsula. some of the Cox Peninsula facility to the In answer to my question on Radio Australia same extent as Cox Peninsula. Parliamentary and the sale of the Cox Peninsula facility by committee after committee has called for that this government, Senator Hill did not answer facility to be turned back on. Letters from my question but he did give me a statement. heads of state around the region have called The statement was that it was the govern- for that facility to be turned back on. There ment’s view—I hope I am not misquoting are crises in the region. We have had prob- him, but I wrote it down as he said it—that lems in Cambodia, we have had problems in ‘Radio Australia is doing quite well in the Bougainville, we have had problems in East region without using the Cox Peninsula fa- Timor. We have an ongoing problem with our cility.’ I think we can knock that one off in reputation—Australia’s reputation—in Indo- five seconds flat if we just look at two things. nesia. I cannot tell you the importance of 14526 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 having a short-wave facility for Australia’s The petition of residents of the nation of Australia voice into Indonesia at the moment, to let draws to the attention of the Senate that: ordinary Indonesians know—that four per 1. A majority of electors in the 1998 federal cent who listened all the time and who are election were not in favour of the GST now down to 1.8 per cent—what Australia 2. Alternative taxation regimes were not prop- thinks and what the facts are about what is erly considered. going on around them. Your petitioners humbly ask the Senate to repeal The facility was worth, it was estimated a the GST legislation and to instigate an inquiry to couple of years ago, $40 million. It cost thoroughly investigate alternative taxation re- $1.4 million a year to run that facility for gimes. Radio Australia and it would have cost by Senator Reid (from 22 citizens). $4.5 million to reinstate that facility. There is Goods and Services Tax: Receipts and absolutely no question that Radio Australia Dockets must have the capacity to broadcast into our To the Honourable the President and Members of region that it had with the facility of Cox the Senate in Parliament assembled. Peninsula open— This petition of the undersigned draws to the at- Senator Schacht—Under a Labor gov- tention of the Senate that under current legislation ernment. the GST will not be included on dockets and that Senator BOURNE—Under a Labor gov- consumers will not know how much GST they are ernment, although we do remember that the being charged, or whether they are being charged north of Western Australia, Carnarvon, was correctly. cut back by the Labor government. But that is Your petitioners therefore request the Senate that another question. The point is that this was when a business provides a consumer with a re- ceipt or docket issued in respect of a taxable sup- closed down and it has to be reopened to Ra- ply the receipt or docket must separately include: dio Australia. I intend to make sure that an amendment goes up to the Senate which (a) the price of the goods or services excluding would reopen at least one of those channels the GST; into Asia out of Cox Peninsula to Radio (b) the amount of the GST; and Australia. It is something that will not go (c) the total price including the GST. away. I do not care if you have sold that fa- by Senator Reid (from 60 citizens). cility. I do not care if you have leased that Medicare land. I do not care if you have cut that bit of the island off and thrown it offshore. This To the Honourable the President and Members of the Seante in parliament assembled: will not go away. The Petition of the undersigned shows: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator Bourne, did you wish to table some docu- We strongly support Medicare, our universal pub- lic health system. Medicare is an efficient, effec- ments? tive and fair system. Under Medicare, access to Senator Bourne—Yes. They are pretty care is based on health needs rather than ability to innocuous, as senators can see. I seek leave pay. to table these two diagrammatic maps from Access to quality health care for all Australians is Radio Australia showing the extent of short a basic human right. wave with and without Cox Peninsula. Your petitioners request that the Senate should: Leave granted. Do all within its power to ensure the continued Question resolved in the affirmative. viability and strengthening of Medicare by sup- porting a substantial funding increase for the pub- PETITIONS lic health system. Further to this, we strongly urge The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged you to continue to support adequate funding for for presentation as follows: public health and oppose all government policy initiatives that would undermine the integrity and Goods and Services Tax: Repeal ongoing viability of Medicare. To the Honourable the President and Members of by Senator Reid (from 1,023 citizens). the Senate in Parliament assembled: Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14527

Radio Australia: Cox Peninsula Your petitioners therefore ask the Senate to stop To the Honourable the President and Members of the erection of this tower and any other future the Senate in Parliament assembled: Mobile Phone Towers at Lakeside Leisure Park. Your Petitioners ask that the Senate call on the And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever Australian Government to: pray. (1) Immediately re-open the Cox Peninsula by Senator Hill (from 593 citizens). broadcasting transmitters Petitions received. (2) Immediately commence broadcasts in Ba- NOTICES hasa Indonesian an English news and current af- fairs Presentation (3) Allocate sufficient resources to Radio Aus- Senator Bolkus to move, on the next day tralia to allow Radio Australia to dramatically of sitting: increase the hours of news and current affairs That the time for the presentation of the report broadcast to the Indonesian Archipelago in Ba- of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Native hasa Indonesian and English languages. Title and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander by Senator Crossin (from 8 citizens). Land Fund on the consistency of the Native Title Amendment Act 1998 with Australia’s Goods and Services Tax: Government international obligations under the Convention on Promises the Elimination of All Forms of Racial To the Honourable the President and Members of Discrimination be extended to 28 June 2000. the Senate in Parliament assembled: Senator Murray to move, on the next day The petition of the undersigned protests the un- of sitting: fairness of the GST legislation because: (1) That a select committee, to be known as (1) the Government has broken its promise that the Select Committee on Child health, schooling and charities will not be hurt by Migration, be appointed to inquire into the GST; and report, by 14 May 2001, on the (2) the GST will not be included on dockets following matters: and consumers will not know how much GST (a) child migration to Australia during the they are being charged, or whether they are being twentieth century, with particular charged correctly; reference to the role and (3) feminine hygiene products (such as tam- responsibilities of the Australian pons and sanitary pads) will be hit by the GST Commonwealth and state while sunscreen, condoms and personal lubricants governments; will attract no GST; and (b) in relation to government and non- (4) the Government has broken its promise that government institutions responsible beer will not rise in price by more than 1.9% and for the care of child migrants: that it will rise by 7% with the GST. (i) whether any unsafe, improper, or Your petitioners request that the Senate support a unlawful care or treatment of chil- fairer tax system for Australia and that the Senate dren occurred in such institutions, hold the Government to its GST promises. and by Senator Faulkner (from 1088 citi- (ii) whether any breach of any relevant zens). statutory obligation existing under state or federal law occurred during Mobile Phone Towers the course of the care of former To the Honourable the President and Members of child migrants; the Senate in the Parliament assembled. (c) the full range of appropriate measures The Petition of the undersigned electors and resi- required to assist former child dents of Huntfield Heights (in the division of migrants to reunite with their families Kingston) and surrounding districts draws to the and obtain independent advice and attention of the Senate their concern regarding the counselling services; One Tel Mobile Phone Tower being built at Lake- (d) the efforts made during the operation side Leisure Park, Huntfield Heights, South Aus- of the child migration schemes or tralia. since by the Australian state and federal governments, the United 14528 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

Kingdom Government, and any other (6) That the deputy chair act as chair when non-government bodies which were there is no chair or the chair is not then responsible for child migration present at a meeting. to: (7) That, in the event of the votes on any (i) inform the children of the existence question before the committee being and whereabouts of their parents equally divided, the chair, or deputy chair and or siblings, when acting as chair, have a casting vote. (ii) reunite or assist in the reunification (8) That the committee and any of the child migrants with any of subcommittee have power to send for their relatives, and and examine persons and documents, to (iii) provide counselling or any other move from place to place, to sit in public services that were designed to re- or in private, notwithstanding any duce or limit trauma caused by the prorogation of the Parliament or removal of these children from dissolution of the House of their country of birth and deporta- Representatives, and have leave to report tion to Australia; from time to time its proceedings and the evidence taken and such interim (e) the need for a formal acknowledgment recommendations as it may deem fit. and apology by Australian governments for the human suffering (9) That the committee have power to arising from the child migration appoint subcommittees consisting of 3 or schemes; more of its members and to refer to any such subcommittee any of the matters (f) measures of reparation including, but which the committee is empowered to not limited to, compensation and consider. rehabilitation; (10) That the committee be provided with all (g) the convening of an international necessary staff, facilities and resources conference of Commonwealth and be empowered to appoint persons countries involved in child migration with specialist knowledge for the schemes; purposes of the committee with the (h) statutory or administrative limitations approval of the President. or barriers adversely affecting those (11) That the committee be empowered to former child migrants who wish to print from day to day such documents pursue claims against individual and evidence as may be ordered by it, perpetrators of abuse previously and a daily Hansard be published of such involved in their care; and proceedings as take place in public. (i) any other matters considered relevant Senator Ferguson to move, on the next by the committee. day of sitting: (2) That the committee consist of 6 senators, 2 nominated by the Leader of the That the Senate— Government in the Senate, 2 nominated (a) expresses: by the Leader of the Opposition in the (i) great sadness and sincere regret at the Senate, and 2 nominated by minority tragic loss of Whyalla Airlines flight groups and independent senators. 904 on 31 May 2000 in Spencer Gulf (3) That the committee may proceed to the in South Australia, and dispatch of business notwithstanding that (ii) its deepest sympathy to the families of not all members have been duly the pilot and passengers, and to the nominated and appointed and communities of the northern Spencer notwithstanding any vacancy. Gulf and Eyre Peninsula that have (4) That the chair of the committee be been so profoundly affected by the elected by and from the members of the tragedy; and committee. (b) notes the outstanding effort of emergency (5) That the deputy chair of the committee services and volunteers in their search be elected by and from the members of and rescue operations in difficult the committee immediately after the conditions. election of the chair. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14529

Senator Schacht to move, on the next day LEAVE OF ABSENCE of sitting: Motion (by Senator Calvert)—by leave— That the Senate— agreed to: (a) strongly condemns the Coalition That leave of absence be granted to: Government for closing down Radio (a) Senator Newman for the period 5 to 8 Australia’s Cox Peninsula radio June 2000, on account of ministerial transmitter and now secretly leasing it to business overseas (attending a Special a private operator; and Session of the UN General Assembly (b) notes that Australia’s national interest: Beijing Plus 5 in New York); and (i) has been affected by the closure of (b) Senator Crane for the period 5 to 8 June Radio Australia’s Cox Peninsula 2000, on account of ill health. transmitter, and NOTICES (ii) may be adversely affected by the transmitter now being used by a Postponement private organisation which may have Items of business were postponed as fol- foreign interests involved. lows: Senator Brown to move, on the next day General business notice of motion no. 535 of sitting: standing in the name of Senator Stott That the Senate— Despoja for today, relating to the summit meetings of the International Monetary Acknowledges that the congress of 3000 West Fund and the World Bank, postponed till 19 Papuans held in Jayapura has declared June 2000. unanimously that, ‘West Papua is independent’. General business notice of motion no. 537 Senator Crossin to move, on the next day standing in the name of Senator Stott of sitting: Despoja for today, relating to the Federal That the Senate— Government’s Trade Outcomes and Objec- tives Statement for 2000, postponed till 19 (a) condemns the Federal Government’s June 2000. decision to sell Australia’s most powerful short-wave transmitter at Cox Peninsula General business notice of motion no. 552 in the Northern Territory to the British- standing in the name of Senator Stott based Christian Voice International; Despoja for today, relating to Kosovar refugees, postponed till 19 June 2000. (b) notes that this decision betrays Australia’s national interests in Asia; and General business notice of motion no. 553 standing in the name of Senator Allison for (c) calls on the Government to ensure that a today, relating to welfare services for at- reliable and easily accessible source of risk school students, postponed till 6 June Australian news and information is 2000. available to people in the region by securing air time for Radio Australia to General business notice of motion no. 562 broadcast to Indonesia and South East standing in the name of Senator Allison for Asia. today, relating to the Albury-Wodonga by- pass, postponed till 7 June 2000. Senator O’Brien to move, on Wednesday, 7 June: Business of the Senate notice of motion no. 1 standing in the name of the Leader of the That there be laid on the table by the Minister Opposition in the Senate (Senator Faulk- representing the Minister for Transport and ner) for 6 June 2000, relating to the refer- Regional Services (Senator Ian Macdonald), no ence of matters to the Finance and Public later than 5 pm on Thursday, 8 June 2000, the Administration References Committee, following documents: All files, reports and all postponed till 27 June 2000. other materials, including Civil Aviation Safety Authority Board and Board Committee agenda TRANSPORT: HEAVY TRUCK papers and minutes held by the Civil Aviation SPECIFICATIONS Safety Authority, that relate to the operation of the Motion (by Senator Harris)—as Albury-based airline ARCAS, which trades as Air amended, by leave—agreed to: Facilities. 14530 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

That there be laid on the table by the Minister person or persons associated with these representing the Minister for Transport and unlawful acts in both these countries. Regional Services (Senator Ian Macdonald), no Withdrawal later than immediately after questions without notice on 7 June 2000, a response to the final General business notice of motion No. 569 report prepared for the Federal Office of Road standing in the name of Senator Tierney, re- Safety by Roaduser International Pty Ltd, lating to Aboriginal employment was with- Investigation into the specification of heavy trucks drawn pursuant to standing order 77. and consequent effects on truck dynamics and OLYMPIC GAMES: TORCH BEARERS drivers, which sets out action proposed by the Government: Motion (by Senator Schacht) agreed to: (a) in respect of each recommendation in the That the Senate expresses its very deep regret report; and that Yianna Souleles was not able to be the first (b) generally, to assist those vehicle owners Australian to carry the Olympic Torch from who have been directly affected, both Olympia. financially and in terms of their personal LEAVE OF ABSENCE health, by the impact of faulty truck Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (3.44 design on their businesses, particularly p.m.)—I would seek leave of absence from those on the verge of bankruptcy. the Senate for the remainder of this week and NOTICES possibly the next week of sitting. Do I need Presentation to do that formally in writing? Senator Cook to move, on the next day of The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Once you sitting: have the specific terms of the motion, you That the Senate— would then be required to seek leave to move (a) expresses its strongest condemnation at it. I suggest you contact the Assistant Clerk the overthrowing of democracy in Fiji by to get the appropriate terms for the motion. It armed criminal elements; is a matter of the formalities. (b) notes that the Chaudry Government is the Senator HARRIS—Thank you, Madam democratically elected Government of Deputy President. Fiji and considers it intolerable that the DOCUMENTS Prime Minister, after more than 2 weeks, is still being held at gunpoint and the rule Tabling of law is being openly flouted on the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Pursuant streets of Suva; to standing orders Nos 38 and 166, I present (c) notes the report, on 5 June 2000, that a the following documents which were pre- criminal group has also attempted the sented to the Deputy President and to the overthrow of the Government of the President on 16, 22 and 31 May 2000. In ac- Solomon Islands and condemns that cordance with the terms of the standing or- action; ders, publication of the documents was (d) calls for: authorised: (i) the immediate restoration to office of The list read as follows— the Chaudry Government and the Government of the Solomon Islands, 32nd report—Six treaties tabled on 7 March 2000, dated May 2000, Hansard re- (ii) the arrest and trial of those responsible cord of the committee’s proceedings [2 for the coups, and vols], minutes of proceedings and submis- (iii) an immediate return to law and order, sions. and peaceful assembly, in Fiji and the Auditor-General—Audit reports for 1999- Solomon Islands; 2000— (e) backs the strongest possible sanctions No. 44—Performance audit—Manage- against Fiji if the above steps are not ment of Job Network contracts: Depart- immediately taken; and ment of Employment, Workplace Rela- (f) declares its support for the cancellation tions and Small Business. [Received 16 of visas for entry into Australia of any May 2000] Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14531

No. 45—Performance audit—Com- and supplementary hearings on the additional monwealth foreign exchange risk man- estimates for 1999-2000. agement practices. [Received on 31 May 2000] On behalf of Senator Payne I also present additional information received by the Legal Magnetic resonance imaging—Letter to the and Constitutional Legislation Committee President of the Senate from the Minister for Health and Aged Care (Mr Wooldridge) relating to the supplementary hearings on the relating to statutory declaration tabled in budget estimates 1999-2000. the House of Representatives on 27 Sep- COMMITTEES tember 1999, dated 19 May 2000 and at- Public Works Committee tachments [2]. Migration Review Tribunal—Report for Report 1998-99, incorporating report of Immigra- Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.47 tion Review Tribunal for the period July p.m.)—On behalf of the Parliamentary 1998 to May 1999. Standing Committee on Public Works, I pres- Auditor-General’s Reports ent the fourth report of 2000, relating to the Report No. 45 of 1999-2000 proposed housing development at Parap Grove, Darwin. I seek leave to move a mo- Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (3.46 tion in relation to the report. p.m.)—by leave—I move: Leave granted. That the Senate take note of the document. Senator CALVERT—I move: I seek leave to continue my remarks later. That the Senate take note of the report. Leave granted; debate adjourned. Senator CALVERT—I seek leave to in- REPRESENTATION OF NEW SOUTH corporate my tabling statement in Hansard. WALES Leave granted. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I table the original certificate of the choice of the houses The statement read as follows— of parliament of New South Wales of Mr Madam President, the report I have just tabled is Sandy Macdonald as a senator to fill the va- the result of a lengthy and sometimes frustrating cancy caused by the resignation of Senator inquiry. Brownhill. The reference to the Committee concerned the proposed spot purchase of 50 house-and-land BUDGET 2000-01 packages by the Defence Housing Authority, the Portfolio Budget Statements DHA, in a housing development called Parap Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Grove in Darwin. Australia—Manager of Government Business These houses were to provide Australian Defence in the Senate) (3.46 p.m.)—I table corrigenda Force personnel and their families a secure subur- to the portfolio budget statements 2000-01 ban environment with good access to community for the Employment, Workplace Relations facilities. and Small Business portfolio and for the Im- The reference estimated the cost of these house- migration and Multicultural Affairs portfolio. and-land packages at $17.5 million at July 1999 Copies are available from the Senate Table prices. Office. This reference to the Committee took place only after the DHA approached the Committee to con- BUDGET 1999-2000 sider having the project exempted from the Com- Consideration by Legislation Committees mittee’s consideration. This was in the context of Additional Information an urgent need to provide housing for Defence personnel in Darwin. Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.46 The Committee was unable to agree to this re- p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Knowles I pres- quest. The Public Works Committee Act provides ent additional information and transcript of for grounds for exemption and these were not met. evidence received by the Community Affairs After the Committee was referred the proposal, Legislation Committee relating to hearings the Committee held a public hearing in Darwin in 14532 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

October 1999 and a later hearing with DHA in SOCIAL SECURITY AND VETERANS' Canberra during February this year. ENTITLEMENTS LEGISLATION In early March, the DHA advised the Committee AMENDMENT (MISCELLANEOUS that the DHA did not want to pursue the Parap MATTERS) BILL 2000 Grove development. The DHA’s reasons for not Report of the Community Affairs continuing with the proposal were given as: Legislation Committee the appointment of a voluntary administrator to the project home developer, Bayview Homes; Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.48 p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Knowles, I pre- additional responsibilities given to DHA by the Department of Defence; and sent the report of the Community Affairs Legislation Committee on the Social Security the urgency that drove the need for this develop- and Veterans’ Entitlements Legislation ment was no longer a critical factor. Amendment (Miscellaneous Matters) Bill The Committee explored these reasons further. 2000 and the submissions received by the This included asking the then Head of Defence committee. Personnel Executive, Major General Peter Dunn, to appear before the Committee. This occurred on Ordered that the report be printed. 16 March this year. COMMITTEES At this hearing, Major General Dunn informed the Privileges Committee Committee that the DHA Board had not approved the Parap Grove project. 90th Report In the Committee’s opinion this reference has Senator KNOWLES (Western Australia) been poorly managed and it has therefore recom- (3.49 p.m.)—I present the 90th report of the mended that the Australian National Audit Office Committee of Privileges relating to a person examine the matter. referred to in the Senate. In conclusion, Madame President, it would appear Ordered that the report be printed. that this proposal was developed in the context of perceived urgency. Senator KNOWLES—I seek leave to move a motion relating to the report. Whether or not there is a perceived urgency for works, the Committee’s response is always the Leave granted. same—every reference from Parliament will be Senator KNOWLES—I move: thoroughly investigated. That the 90th report of the Committee of I seek leave to continue my remarks later. Privileges be adopted. Leave granted; debate adjourned. This report is the 33rd in a series of reports POSTAL SERVICES LEGISLATION recommending that a right of reply be ac- AMENDMENT BILL 2000 corded to persons who claim to have been Report of the Environment, adversely affected by being referred to either Communications, Information Technology by name or in such a way as to be readily and the Arts Legislation Committee identified in the Senate. Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.48 On 19 April 2000, Senator Sue West, p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Eggleston, I Acting President, referred a letter from Dr present the report of the Environment, Com- Malcolm Colston to the Committee of Privi- munications, Information Technology and the leges as a submission under Privilege Reso- Arts Legislation Committee on the provisions lution No. 5. The letter responded to com- of the Postal Services Legislation Amend- ments made by Senator Ray in the Senate on ment Bill 2000, together with the Hansard 9 March 2000. The committee considered the record of the committee’s proceedings and letter at its meeting on 11 May 2000 and rec- submissions received by the committee. ommends that the response be incorporated in Hansard. Ordered that the report be printed. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14533

The committee continues to remind the petition exists other than in the imagination of Senate that it does not judge the truth or oth- Senator Ray or those who advise him. erwise of statements made by honourable During the course of his speech, Senator Ray senators or persons who seek redress. It em- claimed that I “did a grand tour of all the territo- phasises that its sole duty is to recommend ries to see which one he [Colston] would like the that a relevant response be incorporated in most”. The latter part of this assertion is incorrect. Hansard, and neither judges the merits nor I would remind honourable senators that a joint endorses the content of any such response. I committee of which I was a member had a refer- ence in relation to three external territories, commend the report to the Senate. namely Christmas Island, Cocos (Keeling) Islands Question resolved in the affirmative. and Norfolk Island. The committee was obliged to The response read as follows— visit each of these territories and I do so in com- pany with other members of the committee and APPENDIX ONE support staff. RESPONSE BY DR MALCOLM COLSTON Dr Malcolm Colston PURSUANT TO RESOLUTION 5(7)(B) OF THE SENATE OF 25 FEBRUARY 1988 14 April 2000 Response by Dr Malcolm Colston to Senator Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Ray’s Second Reading Speech on the Norfolk Legislation Committee Island Amendment Bill 1999 [2000] 9 March Report 2000 Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) In Senator Ray’s speech mentioned above, in part (3.51 p.m.)—On behalf of the Rural and Re- he stated that I “went over to Norfolk Island, gional Affairs and Transport Legislation stayed with the Administrator and claimed travel Committee, I present a report entitled An ap- allowance”. At no time did I stay with the Ad- ministrator. I appreciated the Administrator’s hos- propriate level of protection? The importa- pitality when, accompanied by Mrs Kerr, he took tion of salmon products: a case study of the my wife and me to a local restaurant. I recall I administration of Australian quarantine and also attended a group function at his residence the impact of international trade arrange- and, with other members of a joint parliamentary ments, together with the Hansard record of committee attended a dinner, also hosted at his the committee’s proceedings, submissions, residence. I stress, however, that at no time did I attachments and additional information pre- stay at the Administrator’s residence. On my visits sented to the committee. to Norfolk Island, I resided in either a guest house or in self-contained accommodation and paid Ordered that the report be printed. normal commercial rates. Senator FORSHAW—by leave—I move: Senator Ray also mentioned that Senator Faulkner That the Senate take note of the report. rejected my “supplications” about the position of On 19 July 1999, AQIS announced amended Administrator of Norfolk Island on the basis that Senator Faulkner regarded me “as a time-serving measures for the importation of salmon prod- place seeker”. It is not my intention to reveal de- ucts, non-marine finfish and ornamental fin- tails of private conversations unless I feel I am fish. The amended measures were required compelled to do so, but that was not the impres- following the outcome of a challenge to sion I gained from Senator Faulkner. Suffice to Australia’s quarantine ban on salmon imports say that Senator Faulkner’s predecessors in the in the World Trade Organisation by Canada. Territories portfolio, Mrs Kelly and Senator The decision to allow imports of salmon, Richardson, gave their full support and my first notwithstanding the strict import protocols visit to Norfolk Island resulted from Mrs Kelly’s required, was met with severe criticism suggestion that I should do so. within Australia, given the potentially sig- Senator Ray stated that “the citizens of Norfolk nificant detriment to our own fish species and Island certainly made their views known by sign- aquaculture industries should any previously ing a petition — 800-odd, I think — pleading with unknown diseases become established. us not to appoint the then Senator Colston”. I do know there was a petition circulated on Norfolk In response to the concerns raised, the Island to extend the term of the then Administra- Senate referred to the Rural and Regional tor, but I have no knowledge of a petition as de- Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee scribed by Senator Ray. In fact, I doubt that such a 14534 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 terms of reference for an inquiry into the ef- settled in May of this year—just last month. fectiveness of the legal and regulator regimes Australia’s membership of the WTO carries governing the Australian Quarantine and In- with it rights and obligations which affect the spection Service, and administrative proce- legal and regulatory regime established by dures and decision making processes in- this country for the importation of goods. In volved in the recent AQIS decision to allow particular, the agreement on sanitary and the importation of salmon products into Aus- phytosanitary measures, the SPS agreement, tralia. However, while concern about the de- which is the principal agreement governing cision was expressed in some sectors—and the use of quarantine controls, allows for im- expressed vehemently both in the public port controls to be imposed only when there arena and also very strongly to the committee is a scientifically proven basis. Accordingly, during its inquiries—there was support for a country can no longer use import quaran- the AQIS process from other sectors. In par- tine controls to restrict trade. ticular, importers of ornamental finfish and The requirements for the SPS agreement those reliant on the import of baitfish ex- potentially have a substantial impact on Aus- pressed their support for the process. The tralia’s quarantine regime, principally by re- latter group, those importing baitfish, in- quiring all import measures to be scientifi- cluded the tuna and crayfishing industries, cally based. Where there is scientific uncer- predominantly found in South Australia and tainty and/or gaps in scientific knowledge, a Western Australia. problem may arise. Where a country cannot Throughout this inquiry, the tension be- show definitively whether or not there is a tween Australia’s international trade interests risk from imports, that country must then and the maintenance of Australia’s high undertake an import risk analysis. The tech- quarantine standards was evident to the niques for undertaking import risk analyses committee and became a focus for the in- are new and evolving. Given the significance quiry. Other issues raised during the course to Australia of its high quarantine protection of the inquiry included the conduct of the regime and the fundamental significance of import risk analysis—the procedures, the import risk analysis to quarantine measures, methodology, science and conclusions; Aus- the committee is firmly of the view that Aus- tralia’s appropriate level of protection, com- tralia should be at the forefront of develop- monly referred to as the ALOP; and, further, ments in this area and should take a leading the issue of the actual conduct of the dispute role in import risk analysis methodology. One within the WTO, including the litigation mechanism for achieving this is the estab- strategy undertaken by Australia, the inter- lishment of a key centre for risk analysis pretations put by the Australian Quarantine along the lines recommended in 1996 by Pro- and Inspection Service and the Department of fessor Malcolm Nairn in a review of Austra- Foreign Affairs and Trade on the require- lian quarantine. The committee has accord- ments of the relevant international agree- ingly recommended that such a centre be es- ments and the extent to which Australia’s tablished. While the WTO, in its report re- conduct met those requirements. leased in February 2000, ultimately endorsed The dispute leading to fewer import re- AQIS’s 1999 import risk analysis, the com- strictive quarantine measures has a long his- mittee considers that there were significant tory—since a ban on the importation of un- deficiencies identified during the import risk treated salmon products was imposed in analysis process—especially, inadequate con- 1975. The amended measures announced on sultation with stakeholders in Australia and 19 July 1999 were the result of Canada’s the premature public release of draft docu- challenge to that ban in the World Trade Or- mentation. I will address firstly the issue of ganisation. The Canadian case was initiated consultation. in 1995, and AQIS produced its first import AQIS’s consultation processes were heav- risk analysis in 1996. It produced a further ily criticised by stakeholders. They argued report in 1999. The outcome of the dispute that, while AQIS provided a great deal of between Australia and Canada was finally information, the stakeholders were not able to Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14535 participate in the process. Their contributions level of protection and also the involvement were not actively sought, nor could they of international law and the need for special- identify whether their input was properly ist expertise in that area in terms of Australia considered and incorporated into the import preparing and presenting its case before the risk analysis. Consultation should be a par- WTO. As my time is shortly to run out, I ticipative process whereby stakeholders seek leave of the Senate to incorporate the views are sought, considered and incorpo- remainder of the tabling speech in Hansard. rated into any analysis. AQIS has been criti- Leave granted. cised for its consultation processes over a number of years, and the committee remains The speech read as follows— concerned about AQIS’s performance in this The Appropriate Level of Protection area. The committee considers that a risk Under the terms of the SPS Agreement, each assessment committee with stakeholder rep- member state has the right to determine their Ap- resentation should be established for each propriate Level Of Protection or ALOP. However, import risk analysis. Such a committee must the right is largely restricted by the requirement be established at an early stage of the risk that quarantine measures must be scientifically based. Hence, the actuality of the ALOP is deter- analysis process to provide one mechanism to mined by the extent to which a country’s measures ensure due consideration and incorporation of can be scientifically justified - it cannot go beyond Australian stakeholder comment. that or a country will find itself vulnerable to The committee was also extremely con- challenge in the WTO. cerned with respect to the release of the draft The Committee is strongly of the opinion that the documentation and the procedures by which ALOP, as currently utilised by AQIS, is too vague AQIS undertook the IRA process for salmon a concept - it is poorly articulated, with no real imports. AQIS publishes draft documentation guidance as to what it is in reality, how it is de- extensively, including on its web site. The termined and by which agencies it is determined. publication of the draft 1995 import risk The confusion surrounding the ALOP guaranteed disaffection by some stakeholders with the out- analysis ultimately was, in the committee’s come of the 1999 IRA. view, damaging to Australia’s case in the WTO. The committee notes that WTO Many people argued to the Committee that, in the face of scientific uncertainty, Australia should be guidelines require only the notification of able to adopt the precautionary principle ap- final measures to other WTO members. proach, and not allow product in until a more in- There is absolutely no requirement to publish formed judgement can be made about the level of draft documentation or preliminary findings. risk. The Committee considers more consideration The committee considers that a far greater of this principle should be permitted in the deter- level of caution should have been exercised mination of the ALOP and the concept should be by AQIS and that no draft documentation or made more explicit. preliminary findings should be given broad International law circulation as currently happens and as is Some of the Committee’s major concerns related provided for in the AQIS handbook on its to the conduct of matters raised by Australia’s import risk analysis process. Indeed, such observation of important aspects of international documentation should be distributed only to law in this country. The Committee took particular domestic parties who are deemed to have a note of: relevant interest in the process and to techni- . The significance attached by successive cal experts. Such distribution should be on a governments over the last two decades to interna- strictly confidential basis. The committee has tional law and litigation in international bodies recommended that the IRA procedures and such as the WTO; handbook be amended to reflect a more cau- . The conduct of the salmon case in the tious approach prior to the determination of WTO; and any measures. . The availability and utilisation of legal There are some other significant matters expertise within the Australian Government. that are canvassed within the committee’s The legal structure of world trade is one of in- report. Such issues include the appropriate creasing economic and political importance. However, the Committee is concerned about an 14536 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 apparent failure to appreciate the expanding sig- on what is a most important inquiry. I also nificance of international law. The Committee is express our thanks to the staff of the printing particularly concerned that there is no single spe- office who, I understand, worked tirelessly cialist office of international law with overriding over the weekend in order to have the re- responsibility for dealing with international legal port—which was finalised only late last matters. The Committee is apprehensive about the quantum and quality of resources currently de- week—ready for tabling today. I commend voted to international law and for the conduct of the report to honourable senators and indeed litigation in international tribunals. to the parliament, on what is a most impor- The international law function is broader than tant issue. merely the conduct of litigation and any responsi- Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (4.02 ble agency must be involved at an earlier point in p.m.)—As a member of the Rural and Re- time than the point of initiation of a dispute. The gional Affairs Legislation Committee I wish Committee considers that it is in Australia’s inter- to make a few comments on this report. I do ests to ensure that sound legal input is a funda- not make a habit of commenting on commit- mental part of any negotiation or policy develop- tee reports, but in this particular case I do ment process and that the specialist skills and experience to litigate any case before the WTO is have a special reason and interest in it. Back available. in 1987 when I first came to this place I mentioned in my first speech the very new The Committee considers it is imperative that the Government establish a statutory office of inter- salmon industry in Tasmania and how it was national legal adviser, within the Attorney- progressing. I predicted that by the year 2000 General’s portfolio, to provide a mechanism for salmon exports from Tasmania could be more effective international legal outcomes for worth up to $100 million. I am pleased to say Australia. that I was completely wrong: by the year Concluding remarks 2000, exports from Tasmania were ap- There is a substantial national interest in having a proaching $200 million rather than the $100 quarantine regime which protects Australian agri- million I predicted. Nevertheless, it makes culture and biodiversity. However, there is an the point that this industry, which employs equal, if not overriding, general perception that around 1,500 people directly and indirectly, currently trade issues take priority over quaran- is a very important industry for not only tine. Such concerns highlight the very real possi- Tasmania but Australia. It has developed into bility that one outcome of challenges over quar- a very high tech world-class industry, pro- antine standards could be the emergence of ‘low- tecting the environment. It is judged by Ja- est common denominator’ standards of quarantine pan—I suppose one of the fussiest importers protection. in the world—to be the best, and they pay a The Committee’s principal concern is that any premium price for the fish they import from lowering of the standard of quarantine protection Tasmania because of its disease-free and may have irreversible detrimental effects on hu- chemical-free status. man, animal or plant life and health or on the en- vironment. The Committee remains extremely With that background, I will turn to the re- concerned that any disease incursion could dam- port. I took a particular interest in the com- age the ‘clean and green’ image which is such a mittee’s very long inquiry period. That this is significant factor in our agricultural exports and a majority report is quite an achievement, which allows Australian producers to set premium with senators from right across Australia and prices for their products, especially salmon. Aus- my fellow senators Kerry O’Brien and tralia must be appropriately prepared to ensure Shayne Murphy from Tasmania. In the front that the international agreements to which it is a signatory do not have the effect of exposing our of the report I note that I am listed as a Lib- very special environmental, animal and plant eral Party senator from Victoria, but I have health status to unnecessary risks through the not been taken over. Like Senator Forshaw, I lowering of quarantine standards. would like to compliment Robina Jaffray and Senator FORSHAW—I conclude by ex- the staff for putting this very important report pressing the committee’s thanks to the offi- together. Salmon industry representatives cers of the secretariat, particularly Robina Peter Bender and Tony Smithies have slav- Jaffray and her staff, for their excellent work ishly come to this place over quite a long Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14537 period of time trying to convince the parlia- The other major concerns we had con- ment of the importance of this industry, and I cerned the appropriate level of protection. think they have done that in a very positive The WTO pointed out that Australia’s ALOP way. That is what this report is. Rather than was vague, to say the least. I think that cer- being a negative criticising report—we could tainly needs defining. We were able to find have quite easily spent our whole report criti- out during the process that the adequate level cising AQIS and others—some very positive of protection could have been higher and that recommendations have come out of this that we were allowed to raise it under the WTO the government could and should look at rules. If we had done so, perhaps we would with regard to where we are going with the not have ended up with the situation we have. protection of our fish and fish products. One of the things that puzzle me—I made A lot of us were quite pleased to hear that, this point as it appears in the report and I will on 17 May, Canada had decided not to con- continue to make this point—is that we seem tinue with punitive action against Australia to have one or two different sets of rules over this matter. As a consequence of that, an when it comes to importing products into agreement was reached between AQIS and Australia. For instance, for untreated meat Canada over one particular part of the import and grains we require that imports be sourced protocols. Despite all that, industry and an- from disease free areas, whereas in the case gling groups, along with the Tasmanian gov- of fish there is no such requirement. Some ernment and me in particular, still believe could argue, as a result of our inquiries into that there is a certain risk—it would have dire what is happening under the WTO, that per- consequences for the industry if diseased fish haps we should relax those requirements on were to find their way into our waterways. As meat, grains, sugar cane and others but, in Senator Forshaw said, in the course of our fact, I and the committee believe that it inquiries we boiled it down to three major should be the other way around—that the areas. They were the conduct of the actual benchmark for salmon should be raised. That risk analysis process, Australia’s appropriate was the background to a lot of the concerns level of protection and the conduct of the expressed by the industry. I believe that there dispute within the WTO. Out of that we came is a possibility that what has happened here up with a recommendation regarding the use may create a precedent that would allow of legal advice in any actions in the WTO. those other agreements to be lowered. It just seems ridiculous that we can put a ban on I must say that one of the areas that I have meat products coming from areas that have been really concerned about over a long pe- foot-and-mouth disease yet we are required riod of time is just how good our expertise is to import raw fish that comes from a farm when we are on the world stage competing that has any one of five diseases which, if against top-class international lawyers from they got into our waterways, would not only other countries. I think that in the salmon clean up our salmon industry but also create case, while not wanting to be critical of the real problems for the environment and the people who represented Australia’s and Tas- salmonids in a wild state right around Aus- mania’s interests in the WTO, we may well tralia. have used more international legal advice and lawyers, considering the fact that ours were There was a lot of evidence taken and a lot up against three, four or five top international of suggestions made. I hope the government lawyers from Canada—with advice from the looks at this report in a positive way. It is a US, I believe. So that is one area where I be- very important issue not only for Tasmania, lieve our recommendations are very posi- as I said, but also for all our waterways. If tive—that we set up an international legal there were a foot-and-mouth disease outbreak adviser’s office not just for disputes similar in Australia, at least we would have a fight- to this but for all international disputes where ing chance of defeating it. In the case of fu- Australia needs the best advice and repre- runculosis, ISA or any of those other very sentation it can have. serious fish diseases, if one of those were to manifest itself in our waterways, the chances of ridding them of it would be nil. That is 14538 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 why I believe that, instead of relaxing our obviously the focus is on the salmon deci- standards, we should have been making them sion, salmon quarantine assessments and the stricter. That is one of the major concerns that salmon industry particularly in Tasmania, the committee shared. All in all, it is a very which, as it has been pointed out, is very sig- good report. I just hope that it has a benefit nificant—but that it is a broader issue than not just for the industry but for all the that, in terms of the future direction of inter- stakeholders involved. national trade and the way Australia operates Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (4.11 within the WTO, that goes far beyond the p.m.)—I will try to keep my remarks brief to salmon industry. allow a bit of time for other senators to speak As someone who does not eat fish, I can on this important report of the Senate Rural be reasonably independent in focusing on its and Regional Affairs and Transport Legisla- importance. I have no particular interest in tion Committee on salmon products. I concur salmon. I did get to go to the salmon proc- with the remark that Senator Calvert finished essing plant; fortunately or unfortunately I with about his hope that people do take the did not sample the product. Not eating it, I report seriously and consider seriously the was unable to assess the quality of it, al- issues it raises. The content proper of the re- though all the other senators that went there port is about 200 pages and a lot of it is fairly seemed to think it was of particularly high technical but I hope that technicality and quality. But certainly the fact that Tasmanian complexity do not prevent people, whether salmon from that region produces such an they be in government, the media or the enormous premium on the Japanese market— community, from considering the fundamen- a huge premium over salmon from other parts tal issues that are underlying the concern that of the world—highlights not just the good the committee has explored. While it is not a quality of the salmon but how crucial it is for rarity to have a unanimous report, it is cer- us to be able to maintain our clean, green, tainly not uncommon to have disagreement disease free reputation. And that is why, not across parties, so it always worth highlight- unreasonably, there has been such great con- ing that when we do get a unanimous report cern about the potential impact. There still is from Liberal, Labor and Democrat senators. concern, and this report should not be seen to I spent a fair bit of time as a participating be the end of the matter nor should people member trying to follow this inquiry—along think that the risk is not still there. Clearly, with my Queensland colleague Senator the Tasmanian government believes that there Woodley, who covers primary industries, and is still a risk there and wants to press ahead also Senator Stott Despoja, our trade spokes- with maintaining its quarantine regime person—because the issues it raises cut around Tasmania. The Democrats in Tasma- across not just primary industries and envi- nia certainly support the state Labor govern- ronmental issues but indeed the whole opera- ment’s approach in that regard. The concerns tion of the WTO and the future direction of are still there, and I think that is important to international trade policy, and it is worth emphasise. highlighting some of the serious concerns But the broader concern, which the com- that are contained in this report. It is a posi- mittee highlighted, goes wider than that. It is tive report in lots of ways. It tries not just to this perception that currently trade issues take bag particular people or groups but to put priority over things like quarantine, environ- forward positive recommendations. None- mental protection, human rights and labour theless, it would be misleading if we were to standards. A strong perception came through suggest that it is all nice and rose coloured. the course of the inquiry—certainly from my Certainly there are quite serious concerns point of view—that, because of the Austra- expressed throughout the report by the com- lian government’s fixation on expanding the mittee as a whole and I really urge the gov- free trade agenda and pushing the free trade ernment to take those on board. The report is agenda at all costs, there was a great reluc- a warning that it is not just an isolated issue tance for us as a government and as a nation and it is not just about salmon—although to be seen to be arguing in the WTO forums Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14539 in support of a measure that other countries we deal with quarantine and import risk were portraying as a non-tariff trade barrier. analysis processes per se. In many ways, Australia at an international As a member of the WTO, we are obli- level did not want to be seen to be associating gated to follow WTO rules and, in this case, with a non-tariff trade barrier at the same the sanitary and phytosanitary agreement time as, on a broader level, it was pushing which sets down the rules for getting meas- free trade at all costs. In my view, that has ures to carry out your supposed appropriate partly affected—whether consciously or sub- level of protection. The appropriate level of consciously—the attitude at government protection, as has been said, is a pretty vague level towards trying to ensure that we protect thing. But, no matter what it is, at the end of the environment and the environmental the day you have to be able to justify scien- health not just of our salmon industry but of tifically the level of protection that you are the waterways more broadly. endeavouring to put in place. You have to The Democrats sign on to this unanimous have scientific evidence and information to report. We could have gone outside it and underpin the quarantine measures that you gone on at great length about some of our seek to put in place. With regard to the way broader concerns, but, to try to give it maxi- in which the salmon risk analysis and the mum impact as a unanimous report, we are importation question from Canada were dealt happy to fully endorse it. We certainly indi- with, we found a number of weaknesses. One cate our intention to pursue strongly the weakness that occurred was the way in which broader and very important issue of reform of the draft import risk analysis was made a the WTO and the need for the WTO to take public document. In 1995, there was a differ- on board not just pure economic issues of ent set of draft recommendations from those free trade, tariff barriers and so-called eco- we ended up with in 1996 and subsequently nomic efficiency but a much wider range of in 1999. We also had a situation where there issues such as the environment, workers’ was no real legal involvement. No interna- rights, social rights and human rights. Those tional law officer was really involved in the sorts of things really need to be factored in to process at all, either at an early stage or the operation of international trade, and I throughout the stages of the WTO processes hope this report and the concerns expressed that this went through. within it by all senators are noted by gov- In the very short period of time that I have, ernment and taken on board as a warning to there are a few points I need to make. One of take these concerns seriously, because the these is the differences in quarantine meas- issue certainly is not confined to salmon and ures. It is not acceptable on the part of the it is certainly not going to end here if nothing WTO to call for consistency within a par- is done about it. ticular range of products like meat. If you Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (4.18 take the idea of ‘meat is meat is meat’, p.m.)—I also wish to make a few comments whether it is from fish or animals, the con- on this report, which, as has been pointed out sistency question should also apply. You can- on a number of occasions, is a unanimous not argue on the one hand that you cannot report. I would also like to reiterate the com- bring in imports of animals such as beef, ments of my colleagues Senator Forshaw and sheep and fowl unless they come from a dis- Senator Calvert with regard to the staff, who ease free area and then say on the other hand, did a lot of work in getting this ready fol- ‘Look, it’s acceptable in respect of fish.’ A lowing a fairly lengthy inquiry. This unani- disease is a disease. If it has an infectious mous report has uncovered some very serious root, if it is of a serious nature, then consis- weaknesses in the way in which we deal with tency ought to apply across the board. Those quarantine. There is no doubt about that. The are just a couple of the important things that focus may have been on the salmon importa- were raised in this document. I urge the gov- tion question, but we also uncovered some ernment to take note of this report because it very serious problems in the way in which has uncovered very serious weaknesses in the way in which quarantine and import proc- 14540 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 esses are dealt with in this country. We must During our review, we heard from Italian ensure that they are changed. Agriculture is a welfare organisations, known as Patronati, very important industry for this country, both who spoke out strongly in support of the new from an export point of view and from an social security agreement with Italy. Other import point of view. If we are to stay ahead community groups who had been kept in- of the game, we must have things like a key formed about the progress of the agreement centre that will work consistently and solidly were supportive of ratification of the treaty. on how quarantine processes ought to be The agreement is an update of the current dealt with in the future. As my time is about 1986 agreement and largely reflects changes to expire, I seek leave to continue my re- in policies and legislation in each country, marks later. and the committee recommends that binding Leave granted; debate adjourned. action be taken. Joint Standing Committee on Treaties The Italian community is one of the major communities in this country and has made a Report great contribution to it. Indeed, a person I Senator COONEY (Victoria) (4.22 work with in my office, Lidia Argondizzo, p.m.)—I present report No. 33 of the Joint was born in Italy, and people who have met Standing Committee on Treaties entitled So- her here and elsewhere will endorse my re- cial security agreement with Italy and New mark when I say she is a quite an outstanding Zealand committee exchange, together with example of how people originally from over- the Hansard record of the committee’s pro- seas do much for this country. ceedings and submissions. I turn to the matter of the treaties commit- Ordered that the report be printed. tee visit to New Zealand. As you know, Mr Senator COONEY—by leave—I move: Acting Deputy President Lightfoot, different That the Senate take note of the report. committees go to New Zealand from time to This report contains the committee’s consid- time and New Zealanders come here. We had eration on two separate issues. The first is a a number of valuable discussions while we review by the treaties committee of the social were there—for example, with the New Zea- security agreement between Australia and land Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Se- Italy, and the second is the report on the lect Committee, which deals with treaties. committee’s visit to New Zealand in March We also had some quite outstanding discus- this year as part of the parliamentary com- sions with the President of the Law Commis- mittee exchange program. sion, Justice David Baragwanath, and a Jus- tice of the New Zealand Court of Appeal, Sir I would like to comment first on the social Kenneth Keith. These are very impressive security agreement with Italy. Agreements people and we learned much from them. such as this highlight the importance of treaty They were most learned men and had a lot to making. The agreement demonstrates that say to us, and I would like to express our treaties are not about handing over sover- thanks for the time they took to talk to the eignty; they are about cooperating with other committee. All the discussions we had con- nations to ensure that the interests of our re- firmed our view that parliamentary consid- spective communities are protected and ad- eration of proposed treaty actions is an es- vanced. Australia is party to nine bilateral sential part of a modern democracy. The social security agreements, all of which are scope and impact of international law is designed to provide welfare protection to growing at a pace that is likely to accelerate. people who move between countries. The It is vital that national governments partici- social security agreement with Italy benefits pate in the development of this law. It is some 41,000 former Italian residents living in equally vital that parliamentarians represent Australia and about 15,000 former Australian the interests of their communities in this pro- residents now living in Italy. It is expected to cess. The challenge for governments, parlia- facilitate the payment of $A166 million in ments and communities around the world is pension payments from Italy into Australia to ensure that international law develops in a and $A48 million from Australia into Italy. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14541 way that gives due and proper weight to local together. After debate on the motion for the interests. second reading has been adjourned, I shall be We as a committee are grateful to have had moving to have the bills listed separately on the opportunity to learn more about the re- the Notice Paper. I move: sponses made to modern international chal- That these bills may proceed without formali- lenges by our fellow parliamentarians in New ties, may be taken together and be now read a first Zealand. We are also grateful that we had an time. opportunity to debate and reflect upon Question resolved in the affirmative. emerging issues in treaty making. There are Bills read a first time. some people I would like to thank. I am sure the committee would join me in saying that Second Reading we owe much to His Excellency Mr Robert Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Cotton, the Australian High Commissioner to Special Minister of State) (4.32 p.m.)—I New Zealand. He looked after the committee move: and arranged meetings for us, and he de- That these bills be now read a second time serves great thanks. We also met the Speaker I seek leave to have the second reading of the House, the Rt Hon. Jonathan Hunt, speeches incorporated in Hansard. whom you may well have met, Mr Acting Deputy President. He has been a parliamen- Leave granted. tarian for many years and certainly helped us The speeches read as follows— on this occasion. So we thank our fellow ADMINISTRATIVE DECISIONS (EFFECT OF committee in New Zealand, and I commend INTERNATIONAL INSTRUMENTS) BILL 2000 this report to the Senate. This Bill responds to the High Court’s decision in Question resolved in the affirmative. Minister for Immigration and Ethnic Affairs v Teoh (1995) 183 CLR 273, which was handed AUSTRALIAN ELECTORAL down on 7 April 1995. COMMISSION In that decision, the Court found that by entering Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— into a treaty the Australian Government creates a Special Minister of State) (4.30 p.m.)—I table ‘legitimate expectation’ in administrative law that a report by the Australian Electoral Commis- the Executive Government and its agencies will sion entitled Funding and Disclosure Report: act in accordance with the terms of the treaty, Election 1998. even where those terms have not been incorpo- rated into Australian law. ADMINISTRATIVE DECISIONS (EFFECT OF INTERNATIONAL The Court also said that where a decision maker intends to act inconsistently with a treaty, proce- INSTRUMENTS) BILL 1999 dural fairness required that the person affected by PRIMARY INDUSTRIES (EXCISE) the decision be given notice and an adequate op- LEVIES AMENDMENT BILL 2000 portunity to put arguments on the point. PETROLEUM EXCISE AMENDMENT If not, the decision could be set aside on the (MEASURES TO ADDRESS EVASION) grounds of unfairness. BILL 2000 The High Court made it clear that such an expec- LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FINANCIAL tation cannot arise where there is either a statutory or executive indication to the contrary. ASSISTANCE) AMENDMENT BILL 2000 The High Court’s decision gave treaties an effect WORKPLACE RELATIONS in Australian law which they did not previously AMENDMENT BILL 2000 have. Bills received from House of Representa- The Government is firmly of the view that this tives. development is not consistent with the proper role First Reading of Parliament in implementing treaties in Austra- lian law. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— It is a long standing principle that the provisions Special Minister of State) (4.31 p.m.)—I indi- of a treaty to which Australia is a party do not cate to the Senate that those bills which have just been announced are being introduced 14542 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 form part of Australian law unless those provi- Those reforms included: the tabling of treaties in sions have been validly incorporated. Parliament prior to the Government taking action Under the Australian Constitution, the Executive to fully become a party to a treaty; the preparation Government has the power to make Australia a and tabling of National Interest Analyses for each party to a treaty. treaty to which it is proposed Australia become a party; and the establishment of the Joint Standing It is for Australian Parliaments, however, to Committee on Treaties to examine treaties. change Australian law to implement treaty obli- gations. These measures, giving the Parliament a proper role in the treaty-making process, could have been For these reasons, on 25 February 1997, the Min- introduced by the previous Government. ister for Foreign Affairs and the Attorney-General made a joint statement which set aside legitimate However, it was too intent on keeping Parliament expectations arising out of entry into treaties. in the dark about treaties. This was a clear expression by the Executive This veil of secrecy now has been lifted. Government of the Commonwealth of a contrary I turn now to the terms of the Bill itself. intention referred to by the majority of the High The Bill will restore the situation which existed Court in the Teoh case. before the Teoh case. The joint statement of 25 February 1997 replaced That is, if there are to be changes to procedural or a joint statement which was made by the previous substantive rights in Australian law resulting from Government on 10 May 1995. adherence to a treaty, they will result from Parlia- However, the 10 May 1995 joint statement con- mentary and not Executive action. tinues to apply to decisions made between the date Indeed, this proper role of Commonwealth, State of that statement and 25 February 1997. and Territory legislatures is emphasised in the At that time, we also announced that legislation fifth paragraph of the Preamble to the Bill. would be introduced into the Parliament to dis- Clause 5 of the Bill gives effect to the statement place the legitimate expectation in administrative by the majority of the High Court that a legitimate law which would otherwise arise out of the entry expectation arising out of entry into a treaty by into treaties. Australia can be displaced by executive or legis- The Administrative Decisions (Effect of Interna- lative action. tional Instruments) Bill 1997 fulfilled that under- Clause 5 provides that no legitimate expectation taking and passed the House of Representatives providing a basis at law for challenging an ad- on 26 June 1997. ministrative decision can arise out of the fact that It was introduced into the Senate on 27 June 1997. Australia is bound by an international instrument The 1997 Bill was not debated by the Senate prior or the fact that an enactment reproduces or refers to the proroguing of Parliament before the 1998 to such an instrument. election and it lapsed with the calling of the elec- The term ‘international instrument’ is defined in tion. clause 4 and covers, amongst other types of in- The text of the present Bill is identical to the 1997 struments, treaties and conventions. Bill. To fall within the definition, the instrument must It is a clear statutory indication to the contrary as be binding at international law. discussed by the High Court in the Teoh case. The definition also covers parts of such instru- It gives this Parliament a role in restoring the ef- ments. fect of treaties in Australian law to that which The terms ‘administrative decision’ and ‘enact- they had prior to the High Court’s decision in the ment’ are also defined in clause 4. Teoh case. The Act will apply to administrative decisions In passing this legislation, the Parliament will also made after it enters into force. be reasserting its proper role in changing Austra- However, the term ‘administrative decision’ ex- lian law to implement treaties. tends to an administrative decision reviewing, or Indeed, the Bill complements the treaty reforms determining an appeal in respect of, a decision this Government initiated on coming into office. made before the commencement of the legislation. One of the principal aims of those reforms was to The 25 February 1997 Joint Statement will con- enhance the role of Parliament in scrutinising tinue to apply to decisions made between 25 Feb- treaty action by the Executive Government. ruary 1997 and the date of entry into force of this Bill. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14543

It is unclear from the decision of the High Court For example, the Bill does not affect the operation in Teoh’s case whether State and Territory admin- of procedures available under the Human Rights istrative decisions may be the subject of legitimate and Equal Opportunity Commission Act 1986. expectations arising out of treaties. Thirdly, the Bill does not affect the operation of This uncertainty could not be allowed to remain. legislation which provides that compliance with Therefore, the Bill is expressed to extend to State an international instrument is a relevant consid- and Territory decisions. eration in making an administrative decision. Since ratification of a treaty is a Commonwealth For example, under the Air Navigation Regula- executive action, it is entirely appropriate for the tions, compliance with Australia’s bilateral air Commonwealth to legislate to control the effect of services agreements is a relevant consideration in that action in Australian domestic law generally. making various decisions. The States and Territories support Commonwealth Fourthly, the Bill does not make compliance with legislation on this issue. an international instrument an irrelevant consid- eration in making an administrative decision However, they differ in their views on whether the where that would otherwise be consistent with the Commonwealth legislation should be applied to scope and object of the particular statutory provi- State and Territory decisions. sion. Therefore, clause 6 of the Bill contains a ‘roll- Fifthly, the Bill will not affect the use by courts of back’ provision. international law in the form of treaties in the This excludes the operation of the Bill in relation interpretation of statutes. to State or Territory administrative decisions Finally, it will not affect their use of international where the relevant State or Territory legislature law as a source of guidance for the development passes, or has passed, legislation having the same of the common law. or similar effect as this Bill. This use of treaties as one source for the devel- This means that it will be open to a State or Ter- opment of the common law is to be distinguished ritory to have its own legislation of similar effect. from the High Court’s finding that treaties gave South Australia enacted such legislation in 1995. rise to legitimate expectations in administrative Therefore, the Bill will have no application to law. State administrative decisions in South Australia. It is the legitimate expectation aspect of the Teoh Nor does the Bill prevent any State which wishes decision with which this Government and the to do so from passing a law or taking its own ex- previous Government disagreed. ecutive actions in relation to treaties accepted by That is the aspect addressed by this Bill. Australia which might themselves create a legiti- I note that the Senate Legal and Constitutional mate expectation. Legislation Committee reported on the 1997 Bill. In that case, the legitimate expectation would flow While the majority recommended that the Bill be from State law, and not the Commonwealth ex- passed as introduced, the reports of the minority, ecutive act of ratification. including Opposition Senators, opposed the Bill. Clause 7 puts it beyond doubt that Parliament is This change of position on the part of the Opposi- not affecting the way in which treaties may oth- tion is monumental. erwise have relevance in Australian law. When the 1997 Bill came before the House of Let me mention a number of existing uses covered Representatives it was supported by the Opposi- by clause 7. tion. The Bill will not affect the operation of treaty Furthermore, the strength of feeling which the provisions which have been incorporated into Opposition, when in Government, demonstrated Australian law. on this issue was no more evident than in the For example, it does not affect the provisions of speech given by the then Minister for Foreign the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations Affairs and Trade and former Member for Holt to which are given the force of law by the Diplo- the Mason and Beyond Conference in September matic Privileges and Immunities Act 1967. 1995. Secondly, the Bill will not affect the operation of He stated: an Act which provides for the redress of griev- ‘My lack of enthusiasm for Teoh is not especially ances in respect of alleged breaches of interna- a function of my lack of appreciation of how it has tional instruments to which Australia is a party. narrowed the gap between international and do- mestic law: rather it is a function of my belief that 14544 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

Teoh creates a decision-making environment that there was considerable division of opinion on the is unworkable in practice, and that it goes further scheme of the transaction levies proposed by the than the court was compelled to go by any legal Live-stock Transaction Levy Bill 1997, particu- principle, or should have gone, in upsetting the larly between producers in the sheepmeat indus- present balance between Executive, Legislature tries and those in the wool-producing industries. and Judiciary. The Livestock Transactions Levy Bill 1997 was The pre-Teoh balance was a delicate one, to be amended to introduce the sunset clause in order to sure, but nonetheless one perfectly attractive in prompt a review. theory and workable in practice’. (The Livestock Transaction Levy Act 1997 was There can be no doubt those words are his own. repealed by the Primary Industries Levies and They encapsulate the reasons why this legislation Charges (Consequential Amendments) Act 1999 is necessary in order to restore the proper role of but replaced, in effect, by Schedule 18 to the Pri- this Parliament in the implementation of treaties. mary Industries (Excise) Levies Act 1999 as part of a wider portfolio levies and charges legislation I commend the Bill to the Senate. rationalisation exercise.) PRIMARY INDUSTRIES (EXCISE) LEVIES Whilst the divisions referred to in the above Sen- AMENDMENT BILL 2000 ate Report may still be in existence, it appears that The purpose of this Bill is to remove a sunset the issues have been comprehensively addressed clause (that is, clause 7) from Schedule 18 to the in the Sheepmeat Council’s Report. A proposal Primary Industries (Excise) Levies Act 1999. for a levy rebate for lambs used for wool produc- The sunset clause of Schedule 18 to the Act pro- tion was considered and found to be impractical vides that Schedule 18 to the Act ceases to be in under Agriculture, Fisheries and For- force at the end of 30 June 2000. estry-Australia’s Levies Management Unit’s levies collection legislation. It would weaken compli- Schedule 18 to the Act provides for the imposition ance, complicate the audit process and signifi- of levy on transactions involving sheep, lambs and cantly increase administration costs. goats. The levy raises around $16 million per annum. Those funds are paid into consolidated In any event, there was no evidence of opposition revenue and then disbursed to a number of pur- from the peak wool growing organisation, the poses for the benefit of the sheep, lamb and goat Wool Council of Australia, who chose not to make industries. Those purposes are marketing, re- submission to the Sheepmeat Council Review of search and development, and animal health. the levy arrangements. Without an amendment to or a repeal of the sunset Further, wool producers receive the benefit of the clause, there will be no statutory basis, after the levy relief arrangements that are in place from 1 end of 30 June 2000, by which levies can be September 1999 until 31 August 2001. The levy raised for the above purposes. relief arrangement reducing the levy from 2% to 1% on lamb sales was introduced by the Govern- Shortly after the levy became effective on 1 July ment in response to the tariff rate quota regime 1998, the then Minister for Primary Industries and imposed by the United States government com- Energy, the Hon John Anderson MP, wrote to the mencing on 22 July 1999. Sheepmeat Council of Australia advising that he required the Council to initiate a review of the The repeal of the sunset clause will allow the transaction levy mechanism and provide an agreed continuation of the levy mechanisms in accor- industry recommendation on the most appropriate dance with the wishes of industry. mechanism to apply from 1 July 2000. PETROLEUM EXCISE AMENDMENT The Sheepmeat Council after extensive consulta- (MEASURES TO ADDRESS EVASION) BILL tion has provided Government with a report, rec- 2000 ommending that no change be made to the current The amendments proposed in this Bill improve levy regime and that these arrangements continue the government’s ability to address excise evasion beyond the end of 30 June 2000. Accordingly, to occurring through fuel substitution. give effect to industry’s recommendation, there is This Bill facilitates prosecutions for fuel substitu- a need to repeal the sunset clause. tion offences by removing some technical diffi- The inclusion of the sunset clause came about as a culties with the legislation and allowing use of consequence of a Report dated 25 November 1997 evidentiary certificates in prosecutions. by the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and This Bill also ensures that a broader range of im- Transport Legislation Committee on the Live- ported products that can be used in fuel substitu- stock Transaction Levy Bill 1997. That Commit- tion activities, such as imported chemical grade tee, in its Report, found amongst other things that Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14545 toluene, are covered by this legislation. The rec- Relations (the Agreement). A key feature of the ord keeping provisions of the fuel substitution Agreement is the payment of all GST revenue to legislation are also extended to cover these prod- the States. ucts. The amendment allows local government finan- Special provisions in the Excise Act 1901 allow cial assistance grants to be maintained on a real changes to the excise tariff to be made by gazet- per capita basis. ting a proposal or tabling a proposal in parliament. The matters to which the Treasurer must currently Over time specific tariff items have been included have regard in making an adjustment to the esca- in a variety of legislation. These references restrict lation factor will be nullified by the reforms to the government’s ability to quickly amend the Commonwealth-State financial relations and are tariff by gazettal or proposal. therefore deleted. This will leave a general dis- As some forms of excise evasion through fuel cretion as in the present Act. However, under the substitution occur when parties systematically amendments, the discretion can be used only if the exploit weaknesses in the excise tariff structure Treasurer considers there are special circumstance any restriction in the government’s ability to to make the adjustment. In making a decision to quickly amend the tariff is a restriction on the adjust the factor, the matters the Treasurer is to government’s ability to quickly address fuel sub- have regard to are the objects of the Act, set out in stitution. section 3, and any other matters he thinks rele- vant. This Bill removes those specific tariff items and replaces them with generic descriptions. Under clause 17 of the Agreement, the States and Territories agreed, inter alia, that local govern- These changes do not affect the way excise is ment would operate as if it were subject to the levied or impose an additional excise liability - GST legislation. they simply give back to the government the power to quickly amend the tariff to protect the As undertaken in clause 18 of the Agreement, the revenue. Commonwealth is legislating to require the States and the Northern Territory to withhold from the Full details of the measures in this Bill are con- financial assistance grants, for any local govern- tained in the explanatory memorandum. ment authority in breach of clause 17 of the I commend the Bill. Agreement, a sum representing the amount of any LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FINANCIAL unpaid voluntary or notional GST payments. ASSISTANCE) AMENDMENT BILL 2000 Amounts withheld by the States and the Northern Territory are to be paid to the Commonwealth. The Local Government (Financial Assistance) Act 1995 is the basis upon which Commonwealth The amendment Bill will also clarify the roles of financial assistance is provided to local govern- the Minister and Statistician relating to calculation ment through the States and Territories. This fi- of projected population figures used in estimating nancial assistance has two components: State entitlements. The Statistician will prepare the estimates on the basis of assumptions speci- general purpose funding (section 9 payments); and fied by the Minister, after consulting the Statisti- local roads funding (section 12 payments). cian. The Statistician requested this amendment. Under this Act local government is estimated to WORKPLACE RELATIONS AMENDMENT be entitled to around $1.32 billion in financial BILL 2000 assistance grants for 2000–01. Each year, the An enduring characteristic of the Howard Coali- Treasurer determines the escalation of local gov- tion government has been our commitment to ernment assistance by having regard to move- policy-making in the national interest. ments in the level of the financial assistance grants and special revenue assistance paid to the Our workplace relations policies are designed to States. benefit both the national interest and our work- places as a whole, not narrow sectional interests. Under the Government’s revised tax reform pack- age, the Commonwealth retains responsibility for We are transforming what was for decades a cen- providing financial assistance grants to local gov- trally controlled industrial relations system into ernment. It is necessary to amend the Local Gov- one where outcomes are put above process, where ernment (Financial Assistance) Act 1995 to re- co-operation substitutes for backroom deals, and move the nexus with States’ financial assistance where agreements between employers and em- grants, as these will be abolished from 1 July 2000 ployees at the workplace level have primacy over as a result of the Intergovernmental Agreement on the intervention of third parties. the Reform of Commonwealth-State Financial Two broad goals underpin these reforms. 14546 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

The first is to ensure that Australia has a work- bargaining model implemented at that time, Labor place relations system that sustains and enhances knew what we all know – that the enterprise bar- our living standards, our jobs, our productivity gaining system was a structural reform in the na- and our international competitiveness. tional interest. The second is to promote a more inclusive and co- Its importance is underscored in the Budget pa- operative workplace system, one that accepts the pers which state the position clearly. “The strong- realities of a diverse, mobile and skilled labour est productivity growth in the private sector has force – where most employers and employees are also been in those industries dominated by enter- capable of making agreements on wages, condi- prise bargaining – mining, finance and insurance tions, and work and family responsibilities subject and manufacturing” (Budget Strategy and Outlook to a safety net of minimum standards. 2000-1 Budget Paper No. 1). Achieving these goals has required structural re- Yet the enterprise bargaining system is today un- form to the system. der serious threat, politically and industrially. The As the recent Budget papers noted, international ACTU leadership and certain unions have oppor- authorities have recently concluded that “struc- tunistically turned their face against it by sup- tural reforms have raised Australia’s sustainable porting a return to industry wide pattern bargain- productivity growth, thereby enhancing the ing. growth potential of the economy”. Enterprise bargaining is the system where wages The result has been lower unemployment and jobs and conditions are determined by genuine nego- growth, with 699,600 new jobs created in work- tiation at each enterprise through workplace par- places since March 1996 and an unemployment ticipation by management, the workforce and their rate today of 6.8% – and the flow-on benefits to representatives, with outcomes based on local families from those new jobs. circumstances and mutual interests. One of the structural reforms that has underpinned Pattern bargaining on the other hand is the prac- these outcomes is the system of genuine work- tice whereby unions demand common outcomes place or enterprise bargaining. in respect of terms and conditions of employment across a swathe of employers or an industry in The overwhelming majority of Australian em- lieu of genuine enterprise bargaining, and then use ployees in the workplace relations system are now the statutory protected action provisions to legiti- employed under enterprise or workplace agree- mise industrial action in pursuit of such claims. ments – whether collective or individual, whether under federal or state laws. Pattern bargaining is designed to undermine Aus- tralia’s successful enterprise bargaining system This system of enterprise bargaining has produced and return workplace relations outcomes to a cen- mutual benefits for workers, employers and the trally controlled one-size-fits-all approach. national interest, on almost every criterion – better wages, relevant conditions, higher productivity, This is currently the case in one of Australia’s more jobs, increased competitiveness, greater major industry sectors - the manufacturing indus- workplace participation and lower dispute levels. try – an industry where business welfare and an It has been consistent with the economic and so- employee’s job security is closely allied to inter- cial goals already mentioned. national competitiveness and productivity growth. Significantly, its outcomes have been far superior Pattern bargaining is a manipulation of the legis- to those of the centrally controlled system that lative right to enterprise bargaining provided for preceded it. by the Workplace Relations Act 1996 (the Act) and by the previous Labor government’s industrial Evidence that enterprise bargaining is central to legislation. Under pattern bargaining, union offi- the national interest lies in the fact that it has, cials making backroom deals assume control over since the early 1990’s, and until recently, been a multiple outcomes, not by participative workplace policy attracting bipartisan political and industrial negotiation involving local circumstances and support at federal and state levels in every Aus- those who have most at stake – employers and tralian jurisdiction. employees. In fact it was the Keating Labor government and This Bill is essential to maintain the integrity of the ACTU that both adopted it as policy in their the enterprise bargaining system in Australia, and Accord Mark VI in 1990, and pursued it vigor- its mutually beneficial outcomes. ously in industrial tribunals, legislatively and publicly. The Coalition indicated in our 1998 workplace relations policy that we would improve the legis- For all of the deficiencies of the Keating Labor lative framework to distinguish between protected government, for all of the inadequacies of the Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14547 action in pursuit of genuine bargaining, and ille- make other minor or technical amendments neces- gitimate bargaining and related industrial action. sary for the effective operation of the industrial We are now acting on that undertaking. action and compliance provisions of the Act. Employers and employees have clearly embraced It is important to note that these substantive enterprise bargaining in the past decade. More amendments in the Bill relating to pattern bar- than 17,000 collective agreements have been for- gaining, cooling off periods and unprotected in- malised under the federal system alone, with thou- dustrial action provide an important determinative sands more under State bargaining systems, as role for the Australian Industrial Relations Com- well as individual workplace agreements under mission, as the independent arbiter on disputed federal and some State laws. More than 80% of all maters. In this way, the Bill recognises a proper federal award employees are covered by enter- and enhanced jurisdiction for the Commission, in prise bargaining agreements. Agreements made addition to its existing functions. directly between employers and their employees, Orders relating to unprotected industrial ac- with limited third party involvement, are becom- tion ing increasingly used as a vehicle for better wages The present section 127 of the Act was introduced and flexible and innovative employment condi- to provide a timely remedy for parties affected by tions and work practices. unprotected industrial action. This section em- Threats to enterprise agreements are not confined powers the Commission to issue orders to stop or to the manufacturing industry. Manipulation of the prevent industrial action. Whilst section 127 has legislative bargaining regime, if not contained, is generally proved to be an effective mechanism, capable of flowing onto other industry sectors delays in the making or enforcement of section where like minded union officials seek to dictate 127 orders have in some cases had the negative wage and condition outcomes. The manufacturing consequence of extending the period during which industry campaign, which is already underway businesses are exposed to unprotected industrial and escalating in Victoria from 1st July presents a action. serious threat to the workplace relations system. The proposed amendments are designed to over- Such an outcome would compromise many of the come these problems by amending the processes gains made in that and other sectors since the in- by which such orders are made. The new provi- troduction of enterprise bargaining nearly a dec- sions will require the Commission to deal with ade ago. It would not be in the national interest. section 127 applications within 48 hours of their This is a matter that calls for immediate remedial lodgement, including the determination of legislation. whether the industrial action is or is not protected action. The provisions contained in this Bill will: If the application is unable to be determined Qualify access to the right to take protected in- within the 48 hours, the Commission is required dustrial action so that where, on application by a to issue an interim order to stop or prevent the negotiating party, the Australian Industrial Rela- industrial action, unless to do so would be con- tions Commission finds that a party is engaging in trary to the public interest. pattern bargaining (as defined) it must terminate the bargaining period, rendering industrial action Industrial action and pattern bargaining unprotected at law; The definition of pattern bargaining in the Bill enhance the effectiveness of the Australian Indus- means that pattern bargaining is a course of con- trial Relations Commission’s power to issue or- duct, bargaining or the making of claims in a ders that unlawful industrial action cease or not campaign or part of a campaign that involves occur; seeking common outcomes in respect of wages or other employment conditions. The Commission give the Australian Industrial Relations Commis- must be satisfied that two elements exist: sion a power to order cooling-off periods in re- spect of protected industrial action where this will the conduct, bargaining or making of claims is assist the resolution of matters in dispute; part of a campaign that extends beyond a single business; and protect existing rights to pursue common law remedies in response to unlawful industrial action the conduct, bargaining or making of claims is in Supreme Courts without additional litigation in contrary to the objective of encouraging genuine the form of anti-suit injunctions being sought enterprise or workplace agreement making. from or issued by the Federal Court; and A course of conduct or bargaining by an associa- tion of employees that extends beyond a single business is taken to be contrary to the objective of 14548 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 genuine enterprise bargaining unless the Commis- during particularly difficult bargaining disputes. sion is satisfied that all of the common elements Such decisions have been made in the best inter- sought are of such a nature that they are not capa- ests of the parties and should be given specific ble of being pursued at the single business level. statutory recognition. An organisation of employees would not be con- The Bill does that. sidered to be engaged in pattern bargaining merely Under the proposed amendments the Commission because it is seeking terms and conditions of em- would suspend a bargaining period for a specified ployment which would give effect to a Full Bench period, on request of one of the negotiating par- decision establishing national standards. ties, if it were satisfied that the suspension would This approach will ensure that bargaining, and in assist parties to resolve their differences, provided particular protected industrial action taken in sup- that the suspension would not be contrary to the port of bargaining, is focussed on mutually bene- public interest. Industrial action taken in relation ficial outcomes at the enterprise level. to a proposed agreement while the bargaining Limiting protected industrial action to persons period is suspended would not be protected action. directly involved This Bill is necessary to ensure that the legislative Arising from the operation of the existing Act, the framework relating to enterprise bargaining and Government’s attention has been drawn to cir- industrial action is properly meeting its intended cumstances where unions have sought to involve objectives. Without this remedial legislation, the all their members who are employed by an em- checks and balances in the system which regulate ployer negotiating an agreement in taking pro- the rights and responsibilities of employers, em- tected action irrespective of whether the employee ployees, unions and employer associations will be would be subject to the proposed agreement. This undermined by illegitimate bargaining and immu- is not the intention of the 1996 Act. nity for illegitimate industrial action. The Bill proposes amendments that would ensure That cannot and should not be allowed to occur. that protected action during negotiations for a The national interest, as well as the mutually certified agreement are only available to those to beneficial outcomes that the enterprise bargaining whom the proposed agreement will apply. system is providing Australian workplaces must remain paramount. In practice, the effect of these proposed changes will be that industrial action will not have immu- In introducing this Bill it is appropriate to note the nity if it is taken in concert with any person or persuasive evidence and submissions made by the organisation of employees that is not protected in Australian Industry Group and its members to the respect of industrial action being taken. Senate Employment, Workplace Relations, Small Business and Education Legislation Committee Court to determine if action is protected action last September. In conjunction with other business The proposed provisions would expressly confer organisations, the Ai Group has clearly identified jurisdiction on the Federal Court to determine the need for this remedial legislative action in whether industrial action is protected, and, if so, order to maintain the proper conduct of workplace whether the industrial action is covered by the relations in the manufacturing sector. I am there- immunity provided by the Act. fore hopeful that this legislation will be in place Although the Federal Court already has such ju- by 1st July 2000. risdiction, questions have arisen in the operation Before concluding, I should also acknowledge the of the Act as to whether its jurisdiction is exclu- constructive discussions the government has had sive of the jurisdiction of State or Territory with the Australian Democrats on this issue. In Courts. The proposed amendments will clarify their minority Senate report last November, the that the Federal Court’s jurisdiction in respect of Democrats indicated that government proposals at these matters is not exclusive. that time were deficient, but that the matter justi- In addition, proposed provisions will protect ex- fied further consideration. This Bill reflects a isting rights to pursue common law remedies in range of revised government proposals. Those response to unlawful industrial action in Supreme revisions, whilst still addressing the problem of Courts without additional litigation in the form of pattern bargaining and associated industrial ac- anti-suit injunctions being sought from or issued tion, take into account more fully both evidence by the Federal Court. given to the 1999 Senate committee, as well as the policy thrust of the Australian Democrats – par- Power to order cooling-off periods ticularly their concern for a proper role for the Under the existing statutory scheme, the Commis- Commission in these matters. sion has used existing provisions to order a form of cooling-off period to provide a circuit breaker Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14549

Debate (on motion by Senator Quirke) The Ralph Review of Business Taxation noted adjourned. that the practice of the alienation of personal services income posed a growing threat to the Ordered that bills be listed on the Notice income tax base. In addition, the Review noted Paper as separate orders of the day. that it was clearly inequitable that some taxpayers NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM should be reducing their tax liability by using (ALIENATION OF PERSONAL interposed entities or claiming excessive deduc- SERVICES INCOME) BILL 2000 tions, while other taxpayers also deriving personal services income, including ordinary wage and NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM salary earners, pay the correct amount of tax. (ALIENATED PERSONAL SERVICES The measures contained in this bill implement the INCOME) TAX IMPOSITION BILL (No. Ralph Review’s recommendations to address the 1) 2000 alienation of personal services income. Rules are NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM introduced dealing with the income tax treatment (ALIENATED PERSONAL SERVICES of the personal services income of interposed en- INCOME) TAX IMPOSITION BILL (No. tities and individuals. 2) 2000 Those rules will not apply where the individual or First Reading the entity is conducting a personal services busi- ness. Bills received from the House of Repre- Individuals and interposed entities who receive at sentatives. least 80 per cent of their personal services income Motion (by Senator Ellison) agreed to: from one source will come within the provisions That these bills may proceed without formali- of the bill, unless the Commissioner makes a de- ties, may be taken together and be now read a first termination that the income is from conducting a time. personal services business. Bills read a first time. The Commissioner’s determination that a business is a personal services business may be given on Second Reading one of four grounds: Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— having two or more unrelated clients; Special Minister of State) (4.34 p.m.)—I having one or more employees; or move: having a separate business premises; or That these bills be now read a second time. that the individual or entity is producing a result, I seek leave to have the second reading supplies their tools of trade and is liable for the speeches incorporated in Hansard. cost of rectifying defective work. Leave granted. Legitimate contractors, for example those operat- ing in the building industry, who are contracted to The speeches read as follows— produce a result, supply their own tools or equip- NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM (ALIENATION ment and are liable for the cost of rectifying any OF PERSONAL SERVICES INCOME) BILL defective work, will be covered by this last test. 2000 The object of these rules is to treat earnings from The New Business Tax System (Alienation of work in the same way under the income tax law, Personal Services Income) Bill 2000 will improve regardless of the legal structure used by the in- the integrity and fairness of Australia’s taxation come earner. system. The Government announced on 11 No- This bill only deals with issues of taxation. vember 1999 that it would proceed to legislate in relation to the alienation of personal services in- Specifically, the bill addresses the income tax come, following a recommendation from the Re- treatment of personal services income and related view of Business Taxation which was chaired by deductions of an individual or entity earning per- Mr John Ralph AO. sonal services income. This bill will prevent individuals reducing their This bill does not affect the legal status of an in- tax by diverting the income generated by their terposed entity or deem an individual to be an personal services to a company, partnership or employee for the purposes of any other legislation trust and limit work–related deductions available or industrial award. in those cases (and to an individual contractor in There is nothing in this bill which requires, or similar circumstances). would require, an individual or entity earning 14550 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 personal services income to alter their current In designing this transitional provision, the Gov- legal relationship between themselves and the ernment has had regard to the fact that taxpayers source of their income. under the Prescribed Payment System are cur- Personal services income may continue to be rently subject to withholding arrangements and earned through an interposed entity, with no fur- are specifically recognised as independent con- ther tax consequences, if the income is not alien- tractors under the tax laws. The Government has ated and there is compliance with the other gen- also had regard to the logistics of the Commis- eral provisions of the tax laws. This is the situa- sioner being able to process a potentially large tion under the current tax laws and will continue number of requests for an individual determina- to apply under the provisions of this bill. tion prior to 1 July 2000. The new rules in this bill will: The transitional arrangement will remove any additional compliance burden from the new rules treat income obtained by an interposed entity from that independent contractors currently in the Pre- the rendering of an individual’s personal services scribed Payment System face in transferring to the as the income of the individual, unless the entity new tax system. pays that income promptly to the individual as salary; and The legislation to implement the personal service income regime includes two tax imposition bills limit deductions that the interposed entity is enti- to safeguard the legislation against constitutional tled to offset against the amount that is treated as challenge. the individual’s income; and The Government estimates that the alienation limit the deductions that an individual can offset measure will result in increased revenue of against their personal services income. $190 million in 2000 - 2001 financial year, Individuals who are entitled to claim business $290 million in 2001 – 2002, $435 million in related deductions under current tax arrangements 2002 – 2000 and $515 million in 2003-04. including insurance, workers compensation and I commend the Bill. the costs of obtaining work, will still be entitled to claim these deductions, irrespective of whether NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM (ALIENATED they are a personal services business. PERSONAL SERVICES INCOME) TAX IMPOSITION BILL (NO. 1) 2000 The measure includes collection arrangements as part of the Pay As You Go withholding system to This Bill is part of a package of 3 Bills that pro- ensure that tax is paid in a timely way where in- vides legislation to give effect to the Govern- come obtained by an interposed entity is attributed ment’s announcement of 11 November 1999 that to the individual worker. it would implement the recommendations of the Ralph Review of Business Taxation regarding the The measures only affect the tax obligations of the alienation of personal services income. individual or entity earning personal services in- come and in some circumstances, their associates. The Government has decided that it is prudent to The measure does not impose any additional obli- have 2 Tax Imposition Bills to safeguard the leg- gations - including withholding obligations - on islation against possible constitutional challenge. the acquirer of personal services. Full details of the measures in this Bill are con- The personal services income measure will apply tained in the presented explanatory memorandum. to assessments for the 2000-01 income year and I commend the Bill. later income years. The accompanying collection NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM (ALIENATED arrangements will apply to payments received by PERSONAL SERVICES INCOME) TAX interposed entities from 1 July 2000. IMPOSITION BILL (NO. 2) 2000 The Government has also included in the bill a This is the last of the Bills that the Government is specific transitional provision to minimise the introducing to implement a measure to address the compliance burden associated with moving to the alienation of personal services income and in do- new tax system. ing so improve the integrity and fairness of the Under this transitional provision, the Commis- Australian taxation system. sioner of Taxation will be able to make a declara- Full details of the measures in this Bill are con- tion that has the effect that the regime will not tained in the presented explanatory memorandum. apply to a class of contractors under the Pre- scribed Payment System who have payee declara- I commend the Bill. tions with the Commission as of today. The dec- Debate (on motion by Senator Quirke) laration will apply for a period of two years, end- adjourned. ing in July 2002. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14551

SALES TAX (CUSTOMS) (INDUSTRIAL qualify for sales tax exemption, goods would need SAFETY EQUIPMENT) BILL 2000 to be of a kind that were mainly used to protect persons engaged in industrial operations. Refund SALES TAX (EXCISE) (INDUSTRIAL claims lodged on or after 5 October 1999 which SAFETY EQUIPMENT) BILL 2000 do not meet this criteria would be denied. The SALES TAX (GENERAL) (INDUSTRIAL Government was concerned that refunds should SAFETY EQUIPMENT) BILL 2000 not result in windfall gains for retailers who have passed the cost of the sales tax on to their custom- SALES TAX (INDUSTRIAL SAFETY ers. Accordingly, refund claims lodged before 5 EQUIPMENT) (TRANSITIONAL October 1999 that meet the requirements of the PROVISIONS) BILL 2000 existing exemption would only be paid where it First Reading can be shown that the benefit of the credit has passed to the end consumer. Bills received from the House of Repre- sentatives. The package of Bills introduced today will achieve the Government’s decision by modifying Motion (by Senator Ellison) agreed to: the sales tax law from commencement of the That these bills may proceed without formali- streamlined sales tax law in 1993 to ensure that ties, may be taken together and be now read a first the law reflects the intention of Parliament at that time. time, and thus will prevent significant risk to the Second Reading sales tax revenue. Liability and appeal rights of taxpayers will be adjusted to achieve the date of Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— effect of 5 October 1999. Special Minister of State) (4.35 p.m.)—I Full details of the measures in this Bill are con- move: tained in the explanatory memorandum. That these bills be now read a second time. I commend the Bill. I seek leave to have the second reading SALES TAX (EXCISE) (INDUSTRIAL SAFETY speeches incorporated in Hansard. EQUIPMENT) BILL 2000 Leave granted. This Bill is part of a package of 4 Bills that pro- The speeches read as follows— vide legislation to give effect to the Government’s announcement of 5 October 1999 in relation to the SALES TAX (CUSTOMS) (INDUSTRIAL sales tax exemption for industrial safety equip- SAFETY EQUIPMENT) BILL 2000 ment. Three modification Bills are necessary be- The package of Bills introduced today provides cause of the Constitutional requirement that a law legislation to give effect to the Government’s an- imposing taxation shall deal only with one subject nouncement of 5 October 1999 in relation to sales of taxation and that laws imposing excise or cus- tax exemption for industrial safety equipment. toms duties deal only with those duties. Certain goods such as masks, respirators, shields, Full details of the measures in this Bill are con- goggles, visors, helmets and machine guards are tained in the explanatory memorandum. exempt from sales tax as items of industrial safety I commend the bill. equipment. The kind of equipment intended to be exempt as industrial safety equipment has always SALES TAX (GENERAL) (INDUSTRIAL been narrow. However, two decisions of the Fed- SAFETY EQUIPMENT) BILL 2000 eral Court have held that the scope of the exemp- This Bill is part of a package of 4 Bills that pro- tion was broadened when the sales tax law was vide legislation to give effect to the Government’s streamlined from 1993. announcement of 5 October 1999 in relation to the As a result of these decisions, it is possible that a sales tax exemption for industrial safety equip- wide range of goods could now qualify for sales ment. Three modification Bills are necessary be- tax exemption as industrial safety equipment. cause of the Constitutional requirement that a law Most of this equipment is only used to a minor imposing taxation shall deal only with one subject extent by persons engaged in industrial opera- of taxation and that laws imposing excise or cus- tions. The equipment is mainly used outside in- toms duties deal only with those duties. dustrial operations and does not have a primary Full details of the measures in this Bill are con- purpose of protecting persons engaged in indus- tained in the explanatory memorandum. trial operations. I commend the Bill. The Government announced on 5 October 1999 that the sales tax law would be amended so that to 14552 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

SALES TAX (INDUSTRIAL SAFETY EQUIP- sions and additional information received by MENT) (TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS) BILL the committee. 2000 Ordered that the report be printed. This Bill is part of a package of 4 Bills that pro- vide legislation to give effect to the Government’s COMMITTEES announcement of 5 October 1999 in relation to the Environment, Communications, sales tax exemption for industrial safety equip- Information Technology and the Arts ment. References Committee Full details of the measures in this Bill are con- Report tained in the explanatory memorandum. Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (4.37 I commend the Bill. p.m.)—I present the report of the Environ- Debate (on motion by Senator Quirke) ment, Communications, Information Tech- adjourned. nology and the Arts References Committee ASSENT TO LAWS on the state of the environment of Gulf St Messages from His Excellency the Gover- Vincent, together with the Hansard record of nor-General were reported informing the the committee’s proceedings, submissions Senate that he had assented to the following and additional information received by the laws: committee. A New Tax System (Fringe Benefits) Bill 2000 Ordered that the report be printed. A New Tax System (Medicare Levy Sur- Senator ALLISON—I seek leave to charge—Fringe Benefits) Amendment Bill 2000 move a motion in relation to the report. Medicare Levy Amendment (CPI Indexation) Leave granted. Bill 1999 Senator ALLISON—I move: Customs Tariff Amendment Bill (No. 3) 1999 That the Senate take note of the report. Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill (No. 2) The Senate referred this inquiry into Gulf St 2000 Vincent to the Environment, Communica- Jurisdiction of Courts Legislation Amendment tions, Information Technology and the Arts Bill 2000 References Committee on 26 August last Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 2) 2000 year. The reference reflected concerns over NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM the environment of Gulf St Vincent and the (ALIENATION OF PERSONAL quality of the gulf’s waters. Gulf St Vincent SERVICES INCOME) BILL 2000 is the smaller of the two gulfs in South Aus- NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM tralia and one which, I might say, was not at (ALIENATED PERSONAL SERVICES all familiar to me prior to embarking on this INCOME) TAX IMPOSITION BILL (No. inquiry. However, having done so, I can say 1) 2000 that many of the issues raised were similar to those that might be raised anywhere else in NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM Australia where we have cities close to the (ALIENATED PERSONAL SERVICES coast—and that is most of our cities. It is a INCOME) TAX IMPOSITION BILL (No. valuable asset to the state. In recent years 2) 2000 there has been greater awareness of environ- Report of Economics Legislation mental issues facing Gulf St Vincent, but the Committee inquiry found that more needs to be done to Senator COONAN (New South Wales) protect the gulf from further environmental (4.36 p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Gibson, I degradation. In this respect, one of the main present the report of the Senate Economics recommendations of the report calls for an Legislation Committee on the provisions of increase in the level of resources currently the New Business Tax System (Alienation of available for raising awareness of the envi- Personal Services Income) Bill 2000 and two ronmental threats to the gulf from all levels related bills, together with the Hansard rec- of government. Further, governments need to ord of the committee’s proceedings, submis- increase resources for community education Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14553 programs about possible solutions to some of munication between representatives of the the pollution and degradation problems. catchment water management boards, local The committee acknowledges that the role councils and relevant state government agen- of the South Australian Environment Protec- cies through regular meetings would lead to a tion Agency is paramount to the protection more effective, integrated approach to pro- and enhancement of the gulf environment. grams aimed at improving water quality and The committee therefore urges the South the general environment of the gulf. Australian government to give enhanced The committee also makes some specific statutory powers and greater flexibility and recommendations in relation to a number of independence to the EPA to enable the latter current environmental concerns affecting the to take appropriate action to protect Gulf St gulf environment. These include an embargo Vincent more effectively. In the view of the on pumping from wells or bores on coastal committee, the Environment Protection dunes and adjacent regions until an investi- Agency could achieve more positive results if gation into the ground water reservoirs has it were given enhanced powers to act inde- been undertaken, making the licence to be pendently of government in environmental issued to the Pelican Point power station matters. The committee was persuaded by the conditional on measures being taken to pre- argument put forward by South Australian vent thermal pollution, carrying out an inde- environmental groups that South Australia pendent assessment of the effects and future should update its coastal management legis- potential of prawn fishing in the Gulf St Vin- lation. The committee notes that other states cent area, and prohibiting the use of tributyl have already updated their equivalent legis- tin on small craft. lation and recommends that the South Aus- In conclusion, water quality problems in tralian government consider this option. the gulf are well documented. Many of the A number of the report’s recommendations problems are impacting on the gulf and even call for increased Commonwealth funding, the solutions are already well known. The especially in the areas of strategic planning, Commonwealth has approved $1.9 million in monitoring and evaluation of programs re- funding for rehabilitation programs and proj- lated to the gulf. In particular, the committee ects in the gulf region over the past three recommends that the Commonwealth provide years. Ultimately, however, it is fundamental funding through the Coastal and Marine for the state government to be driving the Planning Program for the Environment Pro- process of the gulf’s environmental protec- tection Agency of South Australia to develop tion and enhancement, and committing to a planning strategy for Gulf St Vincent. In- specific tangible outcomes, such as coordi- creased Commonwealth funding is also nated public education, statutory planning, sought for the Adelaide Coastal Waters agency agreements, capital works and en- Study. In addition, the committee recom- forcement programs. For its part, the Com- mends that the Commonwealth and South monwealth should continue, and indeed en- Australian governments increase funding for hance, its support to the efforts of the state the monitoring and evaluation of programs and local governments to protect the envi- aimed at cleaning up the waters and envi- ronment of Gulf St Vincent. ronment of the gulf. The South Australian I would like to thank members of the government and local government agencies committee for delivering to the Senate a are of course ideally placed to enhance pro- unanimous report—the second for the day, I tection measures in relation to the gulf envi- understand—and also the committee secre- ronment, especially through increased coop- tariat: Roxane Le Guen, Stephanie Holden eration. To this end, the committee recom- and Angela Mututu. I thank Senator Bolkus mends improved mechanisms for liaison for his excellent photograph, which appears between state and local government agencies on the cover of the report. I also thank those in relation to the management of gulf waters who made submissions. We received some and the coastal environment of the gulf. The 326 submissions to this inquiry, so there is committee also believes that improved com- 14554 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 enormous interest in this matter in the Ade- pressure. Governments and communities laide region. must start to work more closely together. The Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (4.43 federal government can and must take a lead- p.m.)—I also rise to speak on this report. I ership role to reverse adverse trends. make it clear from the start that when Senator In August last year, I moved that the Sen- Allison refers to my photo it is not a photo of ate refer the state of the environment of Gulf me, it is a photo of something much more St Vincent for inquiry by this committee. I attractive: a number of dolphins in the gulf. did so for a number of reasons. One, the state Once again, I think the committee agrees of the environment in the gulf is deteriorating with that assessment. I would like to start by rapidly. Two, the community was concerned thanking the Senate staff and other senators and continues to be concerned that the envi- for the attitude and approach they have taken ronment is not being protected. Three, indus- in respect of this issue and the time they have try is concerned about decreasing fish stocks. taken to go through the evidence, to hear the The gulf is essentially Adelaide’s back yard. witnesses and to come up with, once again, a Like most other South Australians, I am ap- unanimous report of this committee. palled that the decline has been allowed to It is opportune that we are tabling this re- continue unchecked for so long. The evi- port into the state of the environment of Gulf dence we heard about the current environ- St Vincent today, because today is World En- mental damage and impending decline in vironment Day. The subject of this inquiry Gulf St Vincent was compelling. The current and report is an example of an unsustainable management regime is clearly failing the use of a resource. This morning in Adelaide, gulf’s ecosystems and the communities which lies on the shores of the gulf, the Dep- which live and work around the gulf. The uty Director of the United Nations environ- gulf is a valuable asset to South Australia and ment program, Mr Kakakhel, addressed the one that we cannot afford to neglect. It sup- South Australian Employers Chamber of ports an abundant aquatic system, provides Commerce and Industry at a World Environ- an important sea link to other cities, produces ment Day breakfast. In a pretty strong fish and seafood. and provides the basis for a speech, calling for leadership from Australia, wide range of recreational activities including the Deputy Director told his audience that attractive beaches and coastal scenery. But it ‘Australia can reverse the adverse trends’ and has been the dump for sewage effluent and warned us that the ‘world is watching Aus- sludge, industrial effluent, urban run-off, tralia’. Speaking to both industry and gov- dredging material and other unwanted mate- ernment, he went on to say: rial. ... if Australia cannot manage to change, how can One problem is that there is no informa- the rest of the world be expected to change? tion available on the cost of this pollution to That is quite a strong message and one that is the marine environment from loss of fisheries quite appropriate here, because this is an ex- production, effects on biodiversity, nuisance ample of where governments need to lift their and loss of amenity and access. There are game and deliver on the environment. In the increasing pressures for its resources between area discussed in the report, the environment various users. The most significant marine department has reduced spending on coasts areas under threat in South Australia are in and marine environments from some $53.3 Gulf St Vincent and in particular the Ade- million last year to some $46.5 million this laide metropolitan coastal water zone. With year. It is expected to fall to only some $3.5 Kangaroo Island at its mouth, the gulf takes million once the Natural Heritage Trust runs up to 100 days to flush through and it takes out. This is no way to ensure responsible, longer for pollutants to disperse. Twice a long-term environmental protection of our month, the gulf can experience dodge tides, coastline. Although the inquiry was specific where tidal movements almost cease. Its to the gulf, there are lessons that we can take highly saline water often acts as an inverse from this inquiry to apply to all coastal envi- estuary. All of these impacts combine to ronments and indeed all environments under make the gulf less able to cope with the pres- Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14555 sures of stormwater run-off and other dis- ence to the South Australian Environment charges. Yet despite these pressures Gulf St Protection Agency to allow it to take action Vincent has a range of habitats and regions to protect the environment more effectively. globally significant for temperate biodiver- There is a need for increased Commonwealth sity. It has a high level of uniqueness of spe- and state funding to provide for monitoring cies and contains some of the most extensive and program evaluation. areas of temperate mangrove forests and sea- Other recommendations go into the role of grass meadows in Australia. These habitats AQIS in terms of marine pests from visiting are of considerable ecological and economic vessels, and the need for additional funding importance. The gulf is used for fishing, for the Adelaide coastal waters study. It is shipping, boating, dredging, aquaculture, salt important, as Senator Allison also indicated, production, tourism, and recreation and heri- that there be an embargo on pumping from tage. Evidence presented to us during the wells or bores on coastal dunes. In the con- inquiry illustrated quite clearly that the wide- text of the Pelican Point power station, evi- ranging and serious nature of the impacts dence was given to the committee to the ef- currently affecting the gulf cannot be allowed fect that if Adelaide was to take care of its to continue unabated. It is quite clear that dolphin population then it could be as great a ‘business as usual’ is completely inadequate. tourist attraction to it as the dolphins are to We received quite a number of submis- Monkey Mia in Western Australia. That sort sions from a diverse range of organisations in of evidence was taken into account and we South Australia. The Conservation Council have made a recommendation that the licence of South Australia identified four major on- to be issued to Pelican Point power station be going impacts on the ecological sustainability made conditional on measures being taken to of the gulf. These are pollution, direct habitat prevent thermal pollution. Another issue damage and destruction, overharvesting of which continues to plague the gulf is the pro- living marine organisations, and introduced posed Barcoo outlet. That outlet is something marine pests. The Senate committee report which I am sure the state government in that we are tabling today has taken into ac- South Australia needs to reconsider. It is al- count much of the evidence, if not all of it. I most offensive to go ahead with an outlet think it is fair to say that we recommend that which will have already proven negative im- there needs to be urgent action taken with an pacts on Adelaide’s coastal marine environ- increased funding commitment and a brand ment. new approach to the management of the gulf. Gulf St Vincent, like the River Murray, I As I say, it is clear that ‘business as usual’ is believe, is an example of the failure of both completely inadequate in dealing with the state and Commonwealth governments to environmental protection of this gulf. recognise and address environmental decline. Senator Allison has gone through the vari- In this case, the three tiers of government ous recommendations of the committee ex- must work together to address issues of tensively. It is worth repeating one of two of stormwater run-off, effluent discharge, ma- them to give them emphasis. The importance rine pests, algal bloom, fish stock decline and of the Commonwealth providing funding for the loss of sea grass and mangroves. That the development of a planning strategy for loss of sea grass and mangroves is affecting the gulf cannot be understated. The South the state of the beaches close to Adelaide. Australia government needs to consider an We believe, and it is the view of the com- overhaul of the current coastal protection mittee, that the Commonwealth can take a legislation with the introduction of a new lead role in the restoration of the gulf and the coastal and marine planning management act. setting up of appropriate mechanisms to en- It is important to ensure that there is an ade- sure ongoing protection of the gulf environ- quate monitoring of activities, and in that ment. In fact, the state and Commonwealth respect we have recommended that the South governments must come together to fully Australian government give enhanced statu- develop a management plan and start imple- tory powers, greater flexibility and independ- menting solutions. As I say, we cannot con- 14556 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 tinue down the road that we have been going. take a leaf out of the book of the Coffs Har- ‘Business, as usual’ is completely inadequate bour City Council and implement treatment to handle the gulf’s problems. of stormwater flow, as well as sewage com- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.53 ing down from the Heathfield plant, totally p.m.)—While I am a participating member, I on land in the Adelaide environs. We have was not able to sit in on the hearings of the the technology. They did not have it 50 years Environment, Communications, Information ago but we do have it now. That treatment Technology and the Arts Committee. How- should be total. The nutrients from the sew- ever I have frequently been in Adelaide and age and stormwater ought to be recycled for on the shores of Gulf St Vincent in recent use on land and the water ought to be re- years and am very aware of the environ- turned to the system of the Patawalonga and mental degradation that has taken place there, its outflow, then as clean water to the beach. with the continual erosion of the environ- The second thing is the AQIS recommen- mental amenity of that important part of dation. The committee recommends that the Australia’s ecosystems. I commend the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service committee on the recommendations, insofar take an active role in monitoring the possible as they have gone. But I want to pick up on introduction of marine pests from visiting two which did not go far enough. vessels in the Gulf St Vincent area and ap- The first is the one that Senator Bolkus propriate action to minimise the problem. just finished with, and that is the business of Those are waffle words. It is not just AQIS; it the Barcoo outlet. Yesterday I sat in on the is the minister and the government in control World Environment Day ceremony in Ade- who should be providing the amenity to pro- laide. Senator Bolkus was there, but it was tect not just Gulf St Vincent but the whole of essentially a government function and Pre- the Australian littoral from the impact of im- mier Olsen gave a speech at the start of that. ported pests which are going to cost this na- Two things were notable there: firstly, that tion billions of dollars. There is reference in Coffs Harbour council won the award for this report to the Mediterranean fan worm excellence. Just five or 10 years ago I was at spreading in Port Phillip and suffocating the Coffs Harbour with protestors, including marine environment there and spreading to some of the now council members, fighting equally suffocate marine environments in against a sewage outfall at Look-at-Me-Now South Australia. That happened because a headland into the beautiful waters just north ship brought it in as ballast, but ships some- of Coffs Harbour. That sewage outfall has times bring in limpet species to Australian been stopped and options have been taken up. waters and it happens because we do not in- That is one of the reasons Coffs Harbour vest, as a nation, in ensuring that ballast wa- council was getting an award for excellence. ter never gets here and that the hulls of ships coming here are clean of imported species. It But here we have, in Adelaide, a $17 mil- is not just a matter of billions of dollars being lion proposal to simply pipe stormwater and saved in the nation’s future by a more appro- treated sewage from further up the catchment priate investment now, but of stopping our out of the Patawalonga river system straight marine systems from being marauded and a through the sand dunes into the sea and whole host of species going to extinction. swimming environment 200 metres offshore at West Beach. Nothing could be more an We are still in an age when, as this report affront to the environmental sensitivities of says, we want monitoring and appropriate Adelaidians, and indeed Australians, as we action to minimise the problem. We want the go into the 21st century. To simply put in a problem stopped. It can be stopped. If that pipe and allow stormwater to flow out onto means that people involved in trade have to the beach untreated whenever there is an pay a very marginal cost to ensure these pests overflow is early 19th century technology. are not brought into the country then com- That is simply not good enough. The recom- monsense dictates that is what we should be mendation should have been totally against doing. This inquiry has enhanced the fears of that Barcoo outflow. Premier Olsen ought to South Australians that Gulf St Vincent’s Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14557 ecological systems are in a spiral down. It workplace relations system that sustains and provides some of the answers as to how to enhances living standards, our jobs, our pro- stop that but it no doubt will take action at all ductivity and our international competitive- levels from the community—and it seems ness and to promote a more inclusive and local government in South Australia is way cooperative workplace system that accepts ahead of state government and of federal the realities of a diverse, mobile and skilled government—to ensure that this degradation labour force where most employers and em- and this spiral down are not only stopped but ployees are capable of making agreements on also reversed so that Gulf State Vincent gets wages and conditions, and work and family the opportunity to have its natural ecosystems responsibilities are subject to safety net restored. That means an economic and job minimum standards. These goals require creation plus for the whole region and, as structural reforms. This government is again well, a lift in lifestyle values which is going prepared to take the hard yards on industrial to keep people in the region and, indeed, at- relations reform. International authorities, for tract people to the region in the future. example the International Monetary Fund, Question resolved in the affirmative. have stated that structural reforms have raised Australia’s sustainable productivity Employment, Workplace Relations, Small growth, thereby enhancing the growth poten- Business and Education Legislation tial of the Australian economy. Committee The results we have seen are quite spec- Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) tacular. Since 1996, 690,000 new jobs have (5.01 p.m.)—I present the report of the Em- been created. We have had an unemployment ployment, Workplace Relations, Small Busi- rate which in April was 6.8 per cent and we ness and Education Legislation Committee have a flow-on benefit to families and to on the provisions of the Workplace Relations those who are seeking new jobs. The May Amendment Bill 2000, together with the 2000 budget papers have indicated that the Hansard record of the committee’s proceed- continuation of the current expansion could ings and submissions received by the com- be expected to offer a unique opportunity mittee. some years hence and again achieve and Ordered that the report be printed. sustain an unemployment rate not seen in Senator TIERNEY—by leave—I move: Australia for at least a quarter of a century. That the Senate take note of the report. This opportunity can only be met with further labour market reform. Enterprise bargaining Tonight we are considering the Senate com- is the linchpin to that crucial structural re- mittee report on the Workplace Relations form. Amendment Bill, involving pattern bargain- ing. Since 1996 the Howard government has Under enterprise bargaining, wages and introduced workplace relations policies that conditions are determined by genuine nego- are designed to benefit the national interest tiation at each enterprise. They are deter- and workplaces as a whole. The ALP’s mined by management, their work force and workplace relations policies, particularly as their representatives. The outcomes are based seen in the last few months, are designed for on local circumstances and mutual interest. sectional interests such as the trade union An increasing number of Australian employ- movement. The government policies are in ees in the workplace relations system are now the national interest. They are transforming a employed under enterprise or workplace centrally controlled industrial relations sys- agreements. More than 17,000 collective tem into a system where outcomes are put agreements have been finalised under the above process, cooperation is substituted for federal system and thousands more under backroom deals and agreements between em- state bargaining arrangements. More than 80 ployers and employees have primacy over the per cent of all federal award employees are intervention of third parties. covered by enterprise bargaining agreements. The two broad goals that underpin these Since the early 1990s until recently, enter- reforms are to ensure that Australia has a prise bargaining has attracted bipartisan sup- 14558 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 port at the political and at the industrial level, gaining provided for by the Workplace Rela- at the state and at the federal level. The tions Act 1996 and by the previous Labor Keating Labor government and the ACTU government’s industrial legislation. Under both adopted enterprise bargaining policies in pattern bargaining, union officials make the early 1990s. Labor knew back then, as backroom deals to assume control over mul- indeed we all know now, that the enterprise tiple outcomes but not through negotiations bargaining system is a structural reform that involving the local circumstances—so much is in the national interest. This position was for industrial democracy at the workplace stated clearly in this May’s budget papers: level. Pattern bargaining could flow into The strongest productivity growth in the private other sectors where like-minded union offi- sector has also been in those industries dominated cials seek to dictate wage and condition out- by enterprise bargaining—for example, mining, comes. For example, in 1997 the Transport finance, insurance and manufacturing. Workers Union tried to impose on the indus- There are many benefits to workers and em- try as a whole a wages deal agreed to with ployers under enterprise bargaining. The re- the big transport companies through a pattern sults since we have introduced the system bargaining demand and industrial action include better wages, relevant conditions, against small businesses. It was only through higher productivity, more jobs, increased actions by the AIRC and the ACCC that that competitiveness, greater workplace partici- campaign was defeated. Manufacturing in- pation and a lower level of disputes. It is a far dustry campaigns are already under way in superior system to the centrally controlled Victoria. On 1 July this will pose a major system that preceded it. threat to the industrial relations system. It But enterprise bargaining is under threat. could compromise many of the gains made in The ACTU has turned against it and has sup- that industry and in many other sectors that ported a return to industry wide pattern bar- have introduced enterprise bargaining in re- gaining. Pattern bargaining is a practice cent times. It is not in the national interest. where unions demand common outcomes in This bill is essential to maintain the integ- respect of terms and conditions of employ- rity of the enterprise bargaining system in ment across a swathe of employers at an in- Australia. The government’s bill will do five dustry level in lieu of genuine enterprise bar- things. Firstly, it will qualify access to the gaining. They then use statutory protected right to take protected industrial action so action provisions to legitimise industrial ac- that where, on application by a negotiating tion in pursuit of such claims. Pattern bar- party, the Australian Industrial Relations gaining is designed to undermine Australia’s Commission finds parties are engaging in successful enterprise bargaining system and pattern bargaining, it must terminate the bar- return workplace relations to a one-size-fits- gaining period, rendering industrial action all approach. It is all about union control. unprotected at law. Secondly, it enhances the Unions are desperate to retain control in an effectiveness of the AIRC power to issue era of their increasing irrelevance. Across the offers that unlawful industrial action cease or nation only 20 per cent of the work force are not occur. Thirdly, it gives the AIRC a power union members. to order cooling-off periods in respect of This bill deals with a very real problem. protected industrial action where this will Pattern bargaining is occurring in one of assist the resolution of the matters under dis- Australia’s major industry sectors—that is, pute. Fourthly, it protects existing rights to the manufacturing industry. It is an industry pursue common law remedies in response to where employees’ job security is closely al- unlawful industrial action in Supreme Courts, lied to international competitiveness and pro- without additional litigation in the form of ductivity growth. This bill deals with a prob- anti-suit injunctions being sought from or lem in an industry where a union campaign is issued by the Federal Court. Fifthly, it makes putting at risk real jobs and living standards other minor or technical amendments neces- of families. Pattern bargaining is a manipula- sary for the effective operation of the indus- tion of the legislative right to enterprise bar- trial action compliance provisions of the act. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14559

The Labor Party and Mr Beazley have a believes that the logic of enterprise bargaining very clear choice: support the enterprise bar- requires the removal of jurisdictional restrictions gaining policy, which they knew in govern- in areas of law affecting the workplace; that ment was right for the country, or cave in to common law and the application of commercial the current union pattern bargaining cam- legal principals (sic) are as relevant to the opera- paigns. Mr Beazley, I would remind the Sen- tion of the WR Act as the body of industrial law. ate, was the employment minister at the time That is the agenda here. The Labor Party’s Labor adopted a policy to support enterprise report deals with what this real agenda is. bargaining. He cannot walk both sides of the Chapter 3 of our report highlights myriad street. The ALP is incapable of standing up to issues that go to how this bill is a further at- the unions. Mr Beazley has already rolled tempt to dismantle the industrial legal struc- over to the unions and reversed his 1998 tures of which fairness has been the basis in policy. Will the ALP roll over again? For the Australian society since 1904. That is the real sake of jobs and better pay for ordinary Aus- intent here. tralians, I certainly hope not. But do not take just the Labor Party’s word Senator JACINTA COLLINS (Victoria) for this. Let us look at a body such as the (5.11 p.m.)—I too would like to take note of National Competition Council—regarded this report, or perhaps I should clarify what in across the board as being reasonably eco- essence is three reports: the majority report, nomically conservative—and compare what or I should say the government senators’ re- it said when this government sought to re- port; and two minority reports—one on be- move the exemption in relation to labour half of Labor senators and the other on behalf market issues from the Trade Practices Act. It of the Democrats. Firstly, with respect to the highlighted a number of issues put before this government’s report, and now the statements committee as important in relation to labour made by Senator Tierney in tabling the re- relations in Australia. It said that it was im- port, there are a number of issues that I portant: would like to address. Senator Tierney said ... to maintain the primacy of the industrial rela- just now that the Labor Party ‘cannot walk tions framework in labour market relations. both sides of the street’. That is the pure es- This is not Reith’s agenda. Also stated as sence of what Minister Reith is seeking to do being important was: with this bill. Minister Reith has sought to ... compliance with Australia’s ILO treaty obliga- open the labour market up to the free hands tions. of the labour markets, and yet with this This is not Reith’s agenda. Departmental of- measure he seeks to go down the path of very ficials before the Senate estimates made the partisan measures to skew the bargaining point that we are in dispute with the ILO. process in favour of employers. It is Minister And that is the real agenda that exists here. Reith who is guilty of both hypocrisy in how bargaining should occur in a bargaining sys- Before I go into a few other areas of detail tem and duplicity in terms of the real intent in the government senators’ report, I would of this bill. like to make some comments about the Democrats role in this process. The start of This real intent goes to the one issue that I our report goes to the issue of how this leg- can thank government senators for in this islation came before the Senate. We indicate highly cynical process that has occurred at point 1.1 that the government’s expectation within the Senate over the last three weeks. I was to have the bill pass both houses before would like to take the Senate to point 1.28 of the winter recess. A short time before the the government senators’ report. This point introduction of the bill into the House, Sena- quite clearly highlights the real agenda here. tor Andrew Murray moved, by leave, to have The final sentence states: the bill referred to this committee, contingent The Committee majority— upon the bill’s introduction in the House. I in fact, as I highlighted before, the majority is am now able to say, with some great relief, government senators, with Senator Tierney’s that the Democrats seem to have taken a step casting vote used twice in this process— back. 14560 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

They have realised that this bill, which we concerns with issues such as site agreements had not seen at the time it was referred to the and said they should continue to be allowed. Senate committee, has greater flaws than they When they appeared before this inquiry and first thought. I am glad that the hearing proc- were questioned in some detail about their ess was able to demonstrate that—contained understanding of what this bill meant, they as it was with an attempt by the chair, using were sorely lacking. They were not able to his casting vote, to restrict us to just one day tell us why they supported this bill when of hearings and a program probably designed there were various differences in terms of the by the minister. When truth came to light and suggested definition that they provided to the we were able, in a very limited fashion, to Senate inquiry in relation to the 1999 legisla- deal with a much broader range of evidence, tion. They were not able to tell us how the the Australian Democrats saw what not just provisions in the bill made special arrange- the Labor Party but a myriad of other sub- ments for site agreements. The reference in mittees to this inquiry have said are serious the bill provides exactly the same test as it problems with this bill. They relate to both its does for blanket pattern bargaining. They intent—which is not clearly characterised by were not able to tell us why they now support the minister or government senators in their a prescription relating to common claims— report—and the likely effect of the provisions not common outcomes, which was their con- of this bill. I can say at this stage, and I look cern—nor were they able to consider the im- forward to seeing the Australian Democrats pact of a definition based on common claims report, that I am relieved that the Democrats and in relation to matters that were capable of have taken a step back. I hope it is a very being dealt with at an enterprise level. large step. There was some level of misunderstanding In the government senators’ report, com- amongst the committee as to precisely how ment is made with respect to the second wave that test should work. I would like to high- inquiry. At point 1.11 of their report, they light, as we do in our report, that the depart- say, ‘The committee’s inquiry into the 1999 ment came forward at 4.30 p.m. on Friday bill did not deal in great depth with the sub- with an answer to the question of precisely ject of pattern bargaining.’ This is simply not how they saw that capable test being applied. true. The government senators’ report may The answer was that you will fall foul of the not have dealt with this issue in great depth, test on pattern bargaining in relation to a but the Labor senators’ report did. Labor common claim if any of those claims is capa- senators learnt through this process some- ble of being pursued at an enterprise level. thing which I hope the Democrats now as- This highlights the vast problems that this cribe to too, which is: you should not be bill presented for the union movement across hasty in trying to adopt a position which has the board. It is not that the Labor Party ig- been difficult to deal with internationally. nores the fact that problems exist in relation This is why there is no precedent of pattern to some industrial action and campaigns in bargaining being defined anywhere else in the public interest; it is that this bill is a very the world, and this is why it is difficult to different thing. This bill seeks to undermine deal with a definition of pattern bargaining bipartisan processes that have been accepted which will not have a much broader impact in Australia for many years, and it re- than what the minister might claim is his in- establishes a test in favour of employers. This tention with respect to campaigns such as bill represents, as our report indicates, what Campaign 2000. even reasonable employers accept is a free The government highlights the Australian kick for employers. Industry Group’s position and thanks them Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) specially, in the second reading speech by (5.21 p.m.)—Firstly, I would like to do the Minister Reith, for their contribution. The usual and thank the chair, the deputy chair Australian Industry Group raised concerns, in and the secretariat for their assistance with the second wave inquiry, about a blanket pre- this inquiry. As everyone knows, industrial scription on pattern bargaining. They had relations is an extremely contentious area of Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14561 legislation, and it is probably the one area in It was the Labor Party, and they should be which the adversarial nature of our political congratulated for it, which in 1993 added system is most in evidence. much needed flexibility to our industrial re- Once again, I have found this process for lations system by introducing enterprise bar- the Democrats immensely edifying and im- gaining with the right to protected action. mensely helpful in arriving at a decision. The Protected action is an absolutely vital com- committee system and the review system ponent of enterprise level bargaining. The which it embodies assist the parliament result of that Labor initiative, supported at enormously in evaluating evidence and in the time by both the coalition and the Aus- understanding complex issues and the conse- tralian Democrats and reinforced again in the quences of legislation. I must say that I have 1996 act, has been to see an increase in real always found in these forums that, whilst wages and improvement in conditions across intensity and passion have a good place in the Australian work force as a whole. It has any debate, it is the quieter voice and the rea- not resulted in every improvement one would soned argument which have the most impres- wish for—it has not resulted in the elimina- sion upon those of us who are trying to tion of inequities; there are many problems evaluate the issues on their merits. which are still extant in our system of work and the relationships that are attached to it— I want to thank in particular those wit- but it was a great reform, and it is one we nesses who went to considerable effort to should all protect. produce very substantial submissions. All told, there were some 60, and we were able to Behind that reform was the notion with have many of those witnesses appear before protected action that the ability of a third us. There was some mischief making in that party, or indeed an affected party, to sue—to there was a beat-up about the process, but if take legal action, particularly against workers we compare the time given to the short 10- who struck or took industrial action—was page bill and the usual times that are given to severely constrained. Protected action meant bills that are reviewed by the Senate, it com- just that—you were protected from liability, pared very favourably, particularly since you were protected from action and you were these issues in principle were discussed last protected against common law damages be- November. However, as is apparent from my cause you were permitted to take industrial own report, the provisions in this bill require action at the expiry of an enterprise agree- particular attention. I have advised my party ment which initiated a bargaining period. You room, and I advise the Senate through my were entitled to do that even if you went so minority report, that on balance the bill is far as striking. Frankly, you have to have the flawed. The consequences, particularly of the opportunity for a blue to be expressed to its pattern bargaining provisions, are too wide, fullest extent. In the hands of the employers, and the result is that many forms of normal that means lockouts, which is their equivalent bargaining will be unnecessarily impeded. It of strikes; in the hands of the employees, that is important in our industrial relations system means strikes. to maintain flexibility. I am pleased to hear When you look to industry-wide action, my Labor Senate colleagues arguing for the issue is: what forms of strike action are flexibility on this side of the debate; I am permitted? From 1904, right up until today displeased when I see them arguing against really, the industry level action was unpro- flexibility with regard to individual agree- tected. If you took strike action—if you took ments. I think you need to take the principles industrial action—across an industry as a that you espouse across the entire spectrum whole, you could be faced with the conse- of agreement making, both formal and infor- quences of damages and liability. But the mal. By all means reform, amend, modify, commission also had the power to stop that change institutions and restructure, but we industrial action occurring. The result was should always try to give as much flexibility that, in most cases, industrial action was as possible. commenced—it tested the bargaining envi- ronment, and the commission moved in if it 14562 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 was necessary. Protected action by and large NOTICES takes the commission out of the equation. Withdrawal What we are facing here, which this bill in- appropriately and poorly addresses on the Senator FAULKNER (New South basis of the evidence before us, is that the Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- common expiry date of hundreds of enter- ate) (5.31 p.m.)—by leave—Pursuant to prise agreements in a number of industries standing order 78(1), I give notice that, at the over a number of years could be manipulated giving of notices on the next day of sitting, I to enable industrial action to be taken, which will withdraw business of the Senate notice the commission may not deal with except in of motion No. 3 standing in my name for the very specific circumstances. I think that next day of sitting for the disallowance of the problem still exists, but the union witnesses Public Service Commissioner’s directions and other witnesses are dead right: the legis- and business of the Senate notices of motion lation goes too far and outlaws forms of bar- Nos 1 and 2 standing in my name for four gaining which, in their very flexibility and sitting days after today for the disallowance commonality, actually improve our industrial of the Public Service Regulations and Par- environment. liamentary Service Determination 1999/2 respectively. I seek leave to make a very I would be gratified if people who are go- short statement in relation to the withdrawal ing to participate in the debate address the of these disallowance motions. issue. In my report I have dealt with the right to strike. Some unions, and a number of Leave granted. workers within unions, argue that the right to Senator FAULKNER—In giving notice strike should be almost absolute. Frankly, the of my intention to withdraw these disallow- law in Australia has never recognised that to ance motions, I wish to inform the Senate be the case, be it under a federal or a state that the opposition has a continuing concern government, be it Labor or coalition. I do not about chapter 5 of the Public Service Com- object at all to unions or their members tak- missioner’s directions. This chapter sets out ing that up as a political slogan, but as a legal the basic requirements for procedures to de- fact—or as a human rights fact—simply put: termine breaches of the Public Service code the law constrains the right to strike in this of conduct. The opposition regards the lack country; it always has and always will. of detail in relation to these basic procedures I would remind you that the international as a breach of the spirit of the amendment law in terms of the United Nations Interna- made to the act following our negotiations tional Covenant on Economic, Social and with the government. The purpose of the Cultural Rights provides for the right to amendment to the act on this matter was to strike provided it is exercised in conformity ensure that there was maximum consistency with the laws of the particular country. Aus- across the APS in these procedures. There is tralia has always argued that, because it has already an unnecessary and growing diver- the commission, because it has the constitu- gence across the APS on how the procedures tional provision, because it has the award are applied. system and because it has a very wide legis- I have raised this matter with the govern- lative framework, the right to strike was le- ment, along with a number of other matters gitimately constrained in this country. That of lesser concern to us. The government has has been a view of past Labor governments. indicated that it is not prepared to have the All I would say to those who are to enter this direction amended at this time. In the absence debate is that, if we do not have the right so- of a more detailed set of fair procedures, the lution in these bills, we must still recognise opposition believes these matters will ulti- that there is a problem. In my view, that mately be argued out in the Federal Court problem has to be addressed. I seek leave to through an appropriate case. This is not in the continue my remarks later. interests of the Commonwealth or APS em- Leave granted; debate adjourned. ployees. We are disappointed that the gov- ernment has not agreed to tighten the direc- Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14563 tions in this regard, but have decided not to amendments. Senator Murray then explained proceed with our disallowance motions in the that he had not really had enough notice of interests of facilitating the already complex the amendments and was not really con- task of bedding down the new act in the Pub- vinced of the need for the amendments but lic Service. Instead we have asked the gov- was willing to listen to further debate. ernment to commit to a review of the new Senator Conroy made the point just before procedures within the next 12 months. We we broke for question time that there was have also asked that interested parties be either a threat or a perceived threat from the given an opportunity to contribute to this re- ACCC if someone was going to make some view. We are pleased that the government has comment on issues related to the implemen- agreed to ask the Public Service Commis- tation of the new tax system, particularly the sioner to undertake such a review, and we GST. I think Senator Conroy said that some look forward to the results with interest. Let people may even be scared to debate the cost me also assure the Senate that a future Labor of compliance. I think even Senator Conroy government will give priority to addressing would agree that compliance costs will differ this deficiency in the government’s current from business to business, from industry to disciplinary framework in the Australian industry and probably from location to loca- Public Service. tion. It will depend a lot on, for example, Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (5.34 how computerised they are in relation to their p.m.)—I withdraw notice of motion No. 2 accounting systems, pricing systems and so standing in my name for tomorrow. forth, how many outlets different firms A NEW TAX SYSTEM (TRADE have—a whole range of issues. PRACTICES AMENDMENT) BILL 2000 It is a completely sensible debate to be In Committee had. It is quite appropriate that people debate all of these implementation issues. I think the Consideration resumed. point that Senator Conroy makes by talking The CHAIRMAN—The committee is about people like Mr Harvey and about peo- considering A New Tax System (Trade Prac- ple feeling threatened about talking about tices Amendment) Bill 2000 and the two GST price implementation, price impacts and amendments moved by Senator Conroy on so forth is that, in fact, that debate has been sheet 1800. The question is that those raging. It has been going on in the commu- amendments be agreed to. nity for the best part of a year or so, certainly Senator Conroy—We are short a Demo- from about the time the government an- crat at the moment. I would be loath to pro- nounced the new tax system before the last ceed without Senator Murray. election. Clearly, that debate has heated up The CHAIRMAN—The question is that and become a major part of the debate within your amendments be agreed to. Are you go- the business press and the mainstream press ing to speak to those amendments? as we move towards the 1 July implementa- tion. The real point that is made by Senator Senator Conroy—I had actually finished Conroy, even though he may not have sought speaking to them. I was ready to put them to to make it, is that, if people are feeling as if the vote, but it seems that Senator Murray has they have been threatened by the ACCC, it is not quite made it to the chamber yet. hard to blame this legislation, because it is Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western not actually in force yet. Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the That debate has been raging and it is a de- Minister for Communications, Information bate that should be had, but there is nothing Technology and the Arts) (5.35 p.m.)—I in this legislation—and certainly nothing in would like to make a short statement on any existing legislation—that would threaten Senator Conroy’s amendments to the A New in any way people commenting on issues as Tax System (Trade Practices Amendment) to costs of compliance and cost issues. In Bill 2000. I responded to Senator Conroy’s fact, there has been a raging debate in the last description of why he thought we needed the few days since the ACCC’s price guide came 14564 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 out about what the price effects will be. Cer- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western tainly no-one that I have seen in the business Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the community seems threatened; if anything, the Minister for Communications, Information business community is engaging in a very Technology and the Arts) (5.41 p.m.)—At the healthy, worthwhile debate. I think most peo- moment there is no purpose clause in the bill. ple in Australia are very well and truly aware By putting in the words ‘for the purpose of of prices and the fact that there will be price price exploitation’ you will be basically cre- impacts. Most people are aware that a lot of ating a purpose that would have to be proved; prices will go up; people are less aware of the you would have to set about proving that the prices of many items that will come down. purpose was for price exploitation. So, as I said in my last intervention in the Senator CONROY (Victoria) (5.42 debate, I think the amendment is unnecessary p.m.)—I do not know about Senator Murray and I hope that Senator Murray in particular but I thought that was what the bill was there agrees with our proposition. to do: to stop price exploitation. So I am con- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) fused as to why I am having to prove that (5.39 p.m.)—Parliamentary Secretary, I was a having ‘price exploitation’ is a downside to little distracted during that discourse of this amendment. yours. Did you say in your discussion that Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) there were any obvious downsides to this? I (5.42 p.m.)—I am a little perplexed, frankly. I did not pick that up. Madam Chair, aren’t we appreciate the evidentiary remark that the referring to the amendments on sheet 1800, parliamentary secretary has made and that, if to both (1) and (2)? this is to be explored at law, you would have The CHAIRMAN—Yes, that is correct. had to have specific intent; I think that is the Senator MURRAY—Parliamentary Sec- understanding of what ‘purpose’ would retary, did you say there were any downsides mean. As I understand Senator Conroy’s to this? In summary, I thought I understood proposition, this is about freedom of speech you to say it is just not necessary. issues and, not wishing to close down the ability of businesses and organisations in Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western particular to express an opinion about these Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the matters, I am sympathetic to that approach. I Minister for Communications, Information am just not sure where we end with that par- Technology and the Arts) (5.40 p.m.)—Cer- ticular word. If that word is the issue, then tainly I cannot see the upside that the opposi- perhaps there is another way of dealing with tion would have us believe there is. Certainly it, but I am still of the opinion that I do not there is a downside and I was, in fact, waiting want to see business organisations prevented till I had your full and undivided attention from expressing opinions about legislation. before I went into some detail there, because The real issue, the real purpose, of price ex- I could see you conferring with other people. ploitation legislation is to attend to the busi- The proposed amendment does bring an en- ness, the enterprise, not to attend to its repre- tirely new element of purpose into the bill. sentative bodies, be it the Australian Industry The additional element would make it sig- Group, ACCI, the small retailers— nificantly more difficult for the ACCC to prove a breach of the provision and, conse- Senator Conroy—The ACTU or anyone. quently, would hinder its ability to protect Senator MURRAY—Or indeed the consumers from misleading and deceptive ACTU. I am quite sure they have business conduct during the transition to the new tax activities of their own. So, Parliamentary system. Secretary, I must say I am inclined to the Senator CONROY (Victoria) (5.41 view that the intent of the legislation should p.m.)—I am hoping, Parliamentary Secretary, be supported. I would search for assistance if that you will actually explain why you think the word is such that it may have legal con- it will be harder to prove someone’s guilt sequences. arising from this particular amendment. Amendments agreed to. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14565

Senator CONROY (Victoria) (5.45 sentation of the GST package. If that is the p.m.)—by leave—I move amendments Nos 1, case, they should have nothing to fear and 2 and 4 on sheet 1791 revised and the they should accept these amendments, be- amendment on sheet 1811: cause they do nothing more than bring the (1) Schedule 1, page 3 (after line 5), before item government under the same umbrella that 1, insert: they are asking the business community to be 1AA Subsection 2A(1) under. I look forward to hearing the govern- ment’s view and position on this. Omit “and section 44E”, substitute “, section 44E and section 75AYA”. During Senate estimates last week, a num- (2) Schedule 1, item 2, page 3 (after line 24), at ber of issues to do with the accuracy of the the end of the section 75AYA, add: government’s advertising were taken up with (2) The Commonwealth, a Minister of the the tax office by me and by other Labor Crown in right of the Commonwealth senators. Senator Campbell, you may or may or an authority of the Commonwealth not know that we were asking whether or not must not engage in advertising or the there was any authorisation on the big bill- distribution of promotional material, at boards that are throughout Melbourne. As my any time during the period starting Comcar whizzed by late Friday night, I man- when this section commences and end- aged to have a look at one of them on the ing at the end of the New Tax System western ring road. There did not seem to be transition period, that: any government authorisation on the one that (a) falsely represents (whether expressly I saw. Senator Ray informed me that he man- or impliedly) the effect, or likely ef- aged to avoid an accident on the Tullamarine fect, of all or any of the New Tax freeway while looking at one and that there System changes; or may have been a Commonwealth government (b) misleads or deceives, or is likely to logo on it. We are interested in ensuring that mislead or deceive, a person about the ads represent accurately the government’s the effect, or likely effect, of all or position and, most importantly, the facts. We any of the New Tax System changes. took up a number of issues to do with the (3) The protection in subsection 2A(3) does advertising last week. What is health when not apply to this section. you say that health is GST-free? What are all (4) Schedule 1, item 5, page 4 (line 26), after Australian taxpayers? There was a farcical paragraph (3)(b), insert: situation last week—Senator Murray, I am or (c) if the respondent is the Common- not sure if you were with us—when we took wealth or an authority of the Com- up the issue of whether all taxpayers were monwealth—a Minister of the getting a tax cut. There are about 80,000 tax- Crown or an employee of the Com- payers that do not pay tax. We suddenly had monwealth; guffaws of laughter from the other side of the Schedule 1, item 2, page 3 (after line 24) at the table and from some people sitting behind the end of section 75AYA, as amended, add: table. ‘What an absurd statement! How could (4) For the purposes of a penalty for an there be 80,000 taxpayers who did not pay offence against subsection (2), the tax?’ Tragically, the tax act defines anyone Commonwealth is to be treated as if it receiving an income as a taxpayer. But let us were a body corporate. not worry about what the tax act says; we This is an attempt to ensure not only that were only talking to the tax office! The tax there is some honesty and integrity in the office were in a position where they did not policing of the business community but that even seem to understand who a taxpayer was we are able to get some honesty and integrity or wasn’t. We know who they let off: we in the government’s advertising, as has been know that struggling, small Melbourne busi- debated at some length already in good faith ness, the Packer family and Crown Casino. by Senator Murray. There is a lot of contro- They are a taxpayer occasionally but they are versy about these ads. The government have successful in avoiding a reasonable amount maintained for some time that they believe of tax, as you will see if you read the papers. that these ads are a fair and accurate repre- Hopefully, the High Court will rule in the tax 14566 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 office’s favour. The Packer family does not when this section commences and end- seem to pay much tax; maybe they do not ing at the end of the New Tax System think they are a taxpayer either and are there- transition period, that: fore not worth chasing! I am being somewhat (a) falsely represents (whether expressly flippant there. We questioned the tax officials or impliedly) the effect, or likely ef- on the accuracy of their ads to do with health fect, of all or any of the New Tax and on whether or not tampons were a health System changes; or product. We questioned them on whether or (b) misleads or deceives, or is likely to not bandaids were a health product—and I mislead or deceive, a person about am sure Senator Crowley could list many the effect, or likely effect, of all or other health products— any of the New Tax System changes. (2) Omit subsection 75AYA(3), substitute: Senator Sherry—I’m ready to list a few too! (3) As soon as practicable after each 30 June and 31 December, the Commis- Senator CONROY—Senator Sherry is sion must prepare a report detailing any offering to take up the challenge and expand breaches of subsection (2) by the further. Commonwealth or an authority of the Senator Murray—None of those Tasma- Commonwealth that occur during any nian bush remedies. part of the preceding period of 6 months that is within the New Tax Senator CONROY—That is right, Sena- System transition period. tor Murray. There are many different styles of (4) If, at any time during the New Tax health care that are not exempt from the GST. System Transition period, the Minister I know that the Democrats have had concerns believes that the Commission may have in those areas over this package also. breached subsection (2), the Minister Senator Sherry—Didn’t do much about must ask the Auditor-General to pre- it. pare a report on the possible breach. (5) The Commission or the Auditor- Senator CONROY—This is the ‘be nice General must give the Minister a writ- to the Democrats’ five minutes, all right? ten report prepared under subsection (3) The CHAIRMAN—Order, Senator Con- or (4). roy. Please address the chair. (6) The Minister must cause a report re- Senator CONROY—If the government ceived under subsection (5) to be tabled honestly believe that they have nothing to in each House of the Parliament within fear, that all of their ads are truthful and not 5 sitting days of that House after he or she receives it. deceptive or misleading, they can vote for this and they do not have to worry. They will The Australian Democrats have for two dec- be able to sleep at night. There is no problem ades now pursued an issue which is best de- with voting for this amendment. Not wanting scribed as truth in political advertising. That to unduly delay, as we got caught up this particular doctrine has indeed been briefly in morning in some technical arguments and Commonwealth law in 1984, but it does re- some less technical arguments, I will sit side in South Australian law, and very suc- down. cessfully. What we see here is a desire to im- prove the way in which advertising is under- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) taken by the Commonwealth, under any gov- (5.51 p.m.)—by leave—I move the following ernment. Unfortunately, the particular amendments to Senator Conroy’s opposition amendment put up by Senator Conroy deals amendments: with the new taxation transition period rather (1) After subsection 75AYA(2), insert: than applying as a standard principle (2A) A political party registered under the throughout. Nevertheless, it has merits in Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 view of both the controversy surrounding must not engage in advertising or the these issues and the need for these matters to distribution of promotional material, at be above reproach. However, we had to move any time during the period starting fairly quickly, and I somewhat gently say to Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14567

Senator Conroy that the late arrival of these in support of my amendments to Senator amendments to the Senate, having been fore- Conroy’s item (2). shadowed by the opposition more than two Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western weeks ago, is not all that helpful. We in turn Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the have had to react rapidly. Minister for Communications, Information We just do not think your amendment goes Technology and the Arts) (5.57 p.m.)—We far enough. Of course, it is not just the will not be supporting amendments that ef- Commonwealth which needs to be attended fectively make the ACCC arbiters of a politi- to, but any political party, frankly, that is cal debate. There are claims and counter- registered under the Commonwealth act claims made about the effect of any tax should also be included in these matters. We changes. They are genuine issues for debate. ourselves put out promotional and advertis- They are matters that could be debated in the ing material. I do not think it is appropriate parliament and debated in the public arena, that the government or anybody should be and the government thinks it is entirely inap- under particular scrutiny in terms of the truth propriate for the ACCC to do that. We think of what they put out, if political parties are it is, firstly, entirely ultra vires the legislative not also subject to the same considerations. I framework we are talking about. The Trade have been the recipient of quite a number of Practices Act is about the promotion of com- Labor Party publications and promotional petition and fair trading and the provision of material on this matter, and I am sure the La- consumer protection; it is not about moni- bor Party would say that those too should be toring political debate. The TPA has always subject to the same high standards and crite- been confined to business activity and binds ria that they are laying down in their own the Commonwealth and its agencies only amendment. That principally is the intent insofar as the Commonwealth or agency car- behind my amendment to Labor’s amend- ries on a business. ment, which is item (1) on sheet 1806. I think it is worth pointing out that Item (2) deals more with the reporting amendments to the bill will quite clearly only conditions. We think that those reporting serve to further delay the passage of the bill. conditions will considerably improve the way It will deprive the ACCC of the desired pow- in which these matters can be dealt with, and ers before 1 July and beyond. I think it is fair be dealt with in an objective fashion, by the to say that this amendment is nothing more commission and by the Auditor-General. As than a continuation of a political stunt that an example, there is a clause which states: has been carried on by the opposition in par- If, at any time during the New Tax System transi- ticular. One can only expect a political party tion period, the Minister believes that the Com- that has no policies to come up with stunts mission may have breached subsection (2), the from time to time to try and distract political Minister must ask the Auditor-General to prepare debate and distract attention away from its a report on the possible breach. own paucity of ideas. It is a party that failed I have always thought the commission an to do anything about building a modern tax objective if fierce body, and I am sure their system. After 1984, when previous Treasurer report would be very good. I have the highest Keating made a serious attempt at it, with the personal regard for the office of the Auditor- support of Mr Beazley, virtually nothing else General and the way in which they report, as took place. We will not be accepting these does my party. So we think that without these amendments. They are nothing but a stunt amendments (1) and (2) the amendment pro- and a waste of time. Anyone who had any posed by the Labor Party would be too lim- knowledge of the Trade Practices Act and the ited, would distort their full intent and would ACCC would not waste the time of the Sen- be biased. Frankly, if you are going to go ate with such stupid amendments. about these matters, you must do so in a way Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) which pins everybody who could be affected (5.59 p.m.)—I choose to regard the remarks by the matter at hand. That is all I have to say of the parliamentary secretary as not ad- dressed to my amendments to the amend- 14568 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 ments. Senator Conroy dropped a late in a position where they would be judging amendment on sheet 1811 on us which means political ads in the context of an election that my amendment should be adjusted campaign would place them in an intolerable slightly. I seek leave to amend my amend- position. ment No. 2. Senator Sherry interjecting— Leave granted. Senator CONROY—Allan Fels could Senator MURRAY—I refer those partici- probably get himself elected president fol- pating in the debate to item (2) on page 1806, lowing an election campaign, but I am not where it says, ‘Omit subsection 75AYA(3)’. I sure even Professor Fels has that ambition. wish to add the words ‘and (4)’ so that my Senator Quirke—He is already up for a amended amendment now reads: Logie. (2) Omit subsections 75AYA(3) and 75AYA(4), Senator CONROY—I will take that, substitute: Senator Quirke. He certainly is a proven me- (3) As soon as practicable after each 30 dia performer. I am interested in why you June and 31 December, the Commis- have deleted (3) where we talk about the fine. sion must prepare a report detailing any You seem to have deleted the fine, even if breaches of subsection (2) by the Commonwealth or an authority of the you find someone guilty. I am not sure what Commonwealth that occur during any the purpose would be of finding someone part of the preceding period of 6 guilty of something and then nothing happens months that is within the New Tax to them. I would be interested in an explana- System transition period. tion. (4) If, at any time during the New Tax Senator Quirke—Is this a Democrat System Transition period, the Minister amendment? believes that the Commission may have breached subsection (2), the Minister Senator CONROY—Yes. must ask the Auditor-General to pre- Senator Quirke—That figures. pare a report on the possible breach. Senator CONROY—You are found (5) The Commission or the Auditor- guilty, but nothing happens to you. I would General must give the Minister a writ- be interested in the Democrats’ explanation ten report prepared under subsection (3) of why they sought to delete that section. or (4). Senator FAULKNER (New South (6) The Minister must cause a report re- ceived under subsection (5) to be tabled Wales—Leader of the Opposition in the Sen- in each House of the Parliament within ate) (6.03 p.m.)—I have just had a very brief 5 sitting days of that House after he or opportunity to look at the amendments you she receives it. have moved. I think Senator Murray would Senator CONROY (Victoria) (6.00 make the political point that his amendments p.m.)—I have just been reading the Democrat are a response to amendments that stand in amendments. Our amendments are to ensure Senator Conroy’s name on behalf of the op- that taxpayers’ money is not spent in a way position—and they are very good amend- which could be false and misleading. Politi- ments. That would be a perfectly reasonable cal debate is often robust, as this chamber is political point for Senator Murray to make. witness to. To ask the ACCC to judge politi- Without having the amount of time to look as cal debate—I agree with Senator Ian Camp- closely at these amendments as I would like, bell—between the two political parties would my instinctive reaction is that there are very be to put them in an invidious position. To real issues here in relation to freedom of po- ask them to judge the truthfulness of gov- litical expression. ernment advertising is, I believe, a reasonable Senator Ian Campbell—Get Senator thing to do. They have a long history of Bolkus to have a look. dealing with advertising on a factual basis— Senator FAULKNER—I appreciate that whether or not advertisements are true—and interjection because Senator Bolkus is an they deal with them every day. To put them acknowledged legal expert in this area. I Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14569 commend Senator Murray to give some con- of public policy that I think is foremost in the sideration to that matter. And that point holds minds of Australians as they see their current in relation to amendments (1) and (2) moved government misusing public funds to an un- by Senator Murray to opposition amendment precedented degree. I do think it would be (2) on sheet 1791. In relation to amendment inappropriate to deal with or to support the (3) which stands in Senator Murray’s name— sort of amendment that we have before the The CHAIRMAN—That has not been chair at this stage. You have an amendment moved yet. that, for example, permits an advertisement which ‘relates to a community service’, Senator FAULKNER—Let me not make whatever that might be, and if ‘the non- my comments specific to that particular publication of the advertisement would be to amendment because we now find out it has the public detriment’, whatever that might be. not been moved by Senator Murray. I make a These sorts of tests are of course very diffi- general point to Senator Murray that even the cult and that is why there is a need for guide- worst critic of the opposition would ac- lines in this area. knowledge that the question of government promotion, publicity and advertising of the The spirit of the amendment that Senator GST obviously has been the subject of very Murray is likely to move, amendment (3), I serious concerns which have been raised by certainly understand. The reasons Senator the opposition in the public arena. The oppo- Murray might want to move that amendment sition is looking seriously at this abuse and I understand. But I do respectfully suggest misuse of public moneys in the unprece- that this is worth some serious discussion dented $420 million GST promotional cam- between the Australian Democrats and the paign currently being waged by the govern- opposition. I indicate to the Australian ment in support of its unpopular tax changes. Democrats that if Senator Murray would like As far as the opposition are concerned, we to engage in that, then it would be my inten- will look seriously at any proposal that tion on behalf of the opposition to also seri- comes forward in relation to government ad- ously engage in such a discussion. These vertising. sorts of amendments, I do not care whether they are moved by government senators or Senators might be aware that currently the opposition senators or Democrat senators, Joint Committee of Public Accounts and which are so far reaching in their conse- Audit is examining the question of appropri- quences but are not far reaching in the ate government advertising guidelines. I amount of time that senators have to consider know Senator Murray, as a member of that them—in other words, they are basically committee, has an interest in the work of the dropped on the table with just a few minutes sectional committee that is developing the for serious consideration—are not helpful in proposed guidelines. The opposition, for its terms of the conduct of debate in this place. part, is seriously considering the possibility of introducing a private member’s bill to see While I think Senator Murray needs to se- if the parliament will support the guidelines riously think about the impact on the freedom that the Auditor-General himself recom- of political expression that the amendment mended to the parliament as a result of the before the chair might have, I do acknowl- Auditor-General’s inquiry into the CEIP pro- edge that the question of government adver- gram, which occurred in the couple of weeks tising is a very important one. It is uppermost leading up to the issuing of the writs for the in the public mind at the moment. We have a 1998 election. The report was brought down government willing to abuse and misuse gov- by the Auditor-General some months later, as ernment funds to the extent that we have a result of a formal complaint that was laid never seen before in this country’s history, before the Auditor-General by the opposition. and it is proper that this parliament give those sorts of matters very close attention. It is with I say to Senator Murray, through you, that spirit that the opposition approaches the Madam Chair, that we do treat this issue seri- proposal that is before the committee at this ously. We do appreciate a contribution made stage. It is for those serious and substantive to positively try to address this serious issue 14570 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 reasons that we cannot see our way clear, law. We do not think political parties should under any circumstances, to support amend- mislead or deceive in the political market- ments (1) or (2). place. In relation to amendment (3) or other When I say we have form, the propositions matters relating to this question of GST pro- we have put at items (1) and (2) are proposi- motion, publicity or advertising, which of tions we have put before and we have resur- course is occurring under the guise of so- rected them for the purpose of this debate. called information campaigns, the opposition Frankly, we are of the opinion that without stands ready, willing and able to discuss these them item (2) of sheet 1791 revised will be with you, Senator Murray, or with other deficient. It will be defective. It will be short members of the Democrats. We acknowledge of content. It will be biased. That is why we the need for the parliament to act in this area have pursued the route we have. to try to ensure that this unprecedented abuse The second question that I can recall you of process, this unprecedented waste of pub- having put, Senator Conroy, is that you have lic funds and this unprecedented politically asked why we have suggested in our amend- partisan, political propaganda campaign that ments that we should omit item (4). Frankly, is occurring currently to promote the GST is we find the prospect of the Commonwealth something that does not become part and par- being fined ludicrous. That would end up in cel of political life in this country. taxpayers being fined and having to pay for Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) it. I think you are right to pursue this; you (6.12 p.m.)—I thank the Leader of the Oppo- just have not gone far enough. The real issue sition in the Senate for his contribution. My here is being reported—having the political amendments, to use Senator Faulkner’s impact of an adverse report being made phrase, were in reaction to those that were against the government or against a political ‘dropped on us’ today by Senator Conroy— party for having misled or deceived the 1791 revised and 1811. I will come later on population. That is far more powerful than to the question of government advertising in any fine. If we put down a fine of a billion my amendment No. 3, but I should say to the dollars, the government could pay it. But if Leader of the Opposition in the Senate that we said that a government misled or deceived he was absent from the chamber when I gave the people of Australia, that would be suffi- him and Senator Ray well deserved praise for cient to cause enormous outrage, particularly the very thorough way in which they have if it were the commission or the Auditor- pursued this issue. I might not agree with all General expressing that view or, indeed, if of the mathematics that come at the end, but they said the same of any political party. You the fact is that you have put your finger on a are driving here for better standards. We are very sensitive political point and I think you just taking you through that extra hurdle and have done it with considerable skill. trying to make sure that it is even handed. Returning to my amendments (1) and That is as much of a response as I can give to (2)—again to quote Senator Faulkner, al- your questions. though he has not used the word today—in Senator CONROY (Victoria) (6.17 this respect the Democrats have ‘form’. We p.m.)—I would probably say I have always have form going back over two decades in been a bit of an incrementalist, Senator terms of wishing to pursue the issue of truth Murray, and I am always prepared to take in political advertising. We do not think that whatever I can get along the way. political participants should mislead or de- Senator Murray—That doesn’t sound ceive people about political matters. If debate like a transport workers man. is robust or if there are alternative views, that is an entirely different matter. But ‘to mis- Senator CONROY—You have to try and lead’ or ‘to deceive’ have distinct meaning in win your political battles a bit at a time, the ACCC’s jurisdiction. They have distinct Senator Murray. meaning under the Trade Practices Act. They Senator Ian Campbell—One branch at a have distinct meaning as established at case time. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14571

Senator CONROY—Whichever way you Senator CONROY (Victoria) (6.20 want to do it, Senator Campbell. I have usu- p.m.)—I would happily stand and talk all ally kept my branches to the same political night on this bill if you would like. But, like party. I know you have dabbled in a few. But you, Senator Campbell, I am seeking to prog- I have always been willing to take what I can ress this bill quickly. But if you would like to when I can get it, Senator Murray, and I have a lot more debate on it, I can happily would urge that you grab as much of this as stand on my feet regularly. you can at the time. Allan Fels grabs as much The CHAIRMAN—Senator Conroy, are as he can whenever he can. you seeking leave? Senator Quirke—He’s going to do a Senator CONROY—Yes, I am seeking guest spot on Water Rats, I understand, as leave on the basis of a misunderstanding of well, or is it Blue Heelers? what was being put before the chair. Senator CONROY—Possibly either. Leave granted. Even though, as Senator Faulkner has indi- cated, we have some reservations about part The CHAIRMAN—I will put the ques- of your amendments, Senator Murray, I tion again. The question is that Democrat would hope you would still be willing to pur- amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 1806, as sue some of your amendments to our amended, to opposition amendment (2) on amendments. As I said, I have always been sheet 1791 revised and on sheet 1811 be willing to take whatever I can in these situa- agreed to. tions and I hope that you will take up that Question resolved in the negative. challenge. The CHAIRMAN—The question now is The CHAIRMAN—Order! The question that opposition amendments (1), (2) and (4) is that Democrat amendments Nos 1 and 2 on on revised sheet 1791 and the amendment on sheet 1806, as amended, to opposition sheet 1811 be agreed to. amendment No. 2 on sheet 1791 revised and Question resolved in the negative. the amendment on sheet 1811 be agreed to. Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Those of that opinion say aye; to the contrary, (6.21 p.m.)—I move Democrat amendment no. The ayes have it. The next question is that No. 3 on sheet 1806: opposition amendments Nos 1, 2 and 4 on revised sheet 1791 and the amendment on (3) Schedule 1, item 2, page 3 (after line 24), after section 75AYA, insert: sheet 1811, as amended, be agreed to. 75AYB Government advertising Senator Conroy—Could you repeat the first question? (1) A person must not authorise: (a) under any law of the Common- The CHAIRMAN—The first question I wealth, the expenditure of public put was the Democrat amendments. It is the money on advertising; or wish of the committee that I put the Demo- (b) the publication of any advertisement crat amendments? about Commonwealth government Senator Ian Campbell—Is Senator Con- programs or policies, including roy seeking leave to request a recommittal? matters which affect the rights, bene- The CHAIRMAN—Are you seeking fits and obligations of people; leave? Is leave granted to recommit the ques- except in accordance with this sec- tion in relation to the Democrat amendments tion. on sheet 1806 to opposition amendment No. Penalty: 2 on sheet 1791 revised and on sheet 1811? (a) if the offender is a natural per- Senator Ian Campbell—Senator Conroy son—$20,000 or imprisonment has not stood on his feet and requested a re- for 2 years, or both; or committal. I do not know if you can do it by (b) if the offender is a body corpo- just sitting down. I think you actually have to rate—$100,000. stand up and then seek leave and then do it. 14572 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

(2) The publication of an advertisement is or, a person other than the Common- permitted under this section if the ad- wealth. vertisement: This is indeed a resurrection of an amend- (a) is paid for, or is to be paid for, with ment which has previously been proposed in public money; and the Senate and defeated. The issue is always, (b) is not misleading; and of course, whether the provisions have all the any of the following apply: coverage that is required. I accept the com- (c) the advertisement is otherwise re- ments made by the Leader of the Opposition quired or permitted by an Act to be in the Senate that there are aspects to the published; amendment which would require further legal (d) the advertisement is necessary to interpretation and further guidelines. How- inform the public of changes to stat- ever, it is not uncommon for guidelines to be utes or delegated legislation; issued in regulatory matters to expand upon (e) the advertisement is necessary for and amplify legislation. In fact, it is very the carrying on of commercial serv- typical with ASIC and the ACCC to do just ices provided by government agen- that. cies; However, this is a topical and powerful is- (f) the advertisement is for the purposes sue. It is an issue to which the opposition in of recruitment of staff or officehold- particular has devoted a great deal of time ers; and probably, in a political sense, a success- (g) the advertisement calls for tenders; ful time, in seeking to indicate that part at (h) the advertisement relates to a public least of the government advertising program inquiry; which is currently under way is political in (i) the advertisement contains a notice content and not government information in that is required by statute to be pub- the normal sense of the word. Those are lished; matters of judgment, but I think there is a (j) the advertisement relates to a com- case that the government has probably gone munity service and the non- too far in some of the poster and television publication of the advertisement advertising. As I said in my earlier remarks, would be to the public detriment. the print, leaflet and computer media adver- (3) In this section: tising have been very effective. advertising means the production of It is no good raising heat on these matters material designed to disseminate infor- unless you provide a solution or you try to do mation through printed, audio, audio- something about it. Since this is a problem visual or other electronic media and in- which is underway right now and will con- cludes the use of consultants or agen- tinue, we thought it necessary to act immedi- cies with expertise in: ately to resurrect a form of amendment which (a) public relations; or we have previously put. I gather from the (b) market research; or remarks of the Leader of the Opposition that (c) advertising; or this will be opposed. Nevertheless, it is a (d) other specialist areas; genuine attempt to deal with this matter and is a response to Labor’s intention to bring in the development of such material. on—all of a sudden, I might say—certain public money means: amendments themselves which attend to (a) money in the custody or under the these issues. control of the Commonwealth; or I think this amendment, regardless of any (b) money in the custody or under the inadequacies that might be thought to exist control of any person acting for or within it, takes us along a far better path than on behalf of the Commonwealth in respect of the custody or control of we have at present and will deal with many the money; issues that need to be dealt with and is appro- priately expressed. If, as I realise, the oppo- including such money that is held on trust for, or otherwise for the benefit sition like the intent but not the content, I will Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14573 at some stage take up the offer by the Leader negatives and suspicions of the product you of the Opposition to consider these matters are trying to sell. I certainly think that is the further. However, the Australian Democrats case with respect to the current GST propa- feel strongly that government advertising ganda campaign. It is rare to get unsolicited should be specified in law, that this is the comment back about these types of issues in appropriate act to do it in, and that there the general community. Certainly, on the should be guidelines which support the ad- north-west coast of Tasmania over the week- vertising. If that is done, frankly, it will be to end, a number of people remarked about the the benefit of the government going into the current size of the propaganda campaign. election and to the benefit of the people of They made a number of points, including: if Australia as a whole. If this is to be rejected, the GST is so good, why is it necessary for I do hope the government will nevertheless the government to spend more than $800 move to provide better legislation surround- million convincing the Australian community ing the contentious area of government ad- it is so good? Secondly, the point that was vertising, particularly when it reaches into the made to me was that $400 million could be very high figures it has recently. better spent in other areas. Indeed, I had oc- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (6.25 casion to have a discussion with some veter- p.m.)—It was not my intention to speak on ans about these GST matters and— this matter and I will not speak for long. I had Senator Quirke—You are not talking hoped we would progress to the legislation in about Joe Cocker? respect to the new business tax system. I did Senator SHERRY—No, I think they were unfortunately miss most of the debate that fans of Joe Cocker, but they certainly were occurred earlier this morning on the bill that not interested in the music. we are considering, A New Tax System (Trade Practices Amendment) Bill 2000. We Senator Quirke—He sang in tune. did have the Trade Practices Commission Senator SHERRY—I do not agree with before us in estimates last week when a num- you. I think Joe Cocker has a unique music ber of the issues that we are considering here style. But they made the point to me quite by way of amendment were considered in validly that this money could be better spent terms of the current very substantial, mas- on our scarce community services, not just sive, record—as some would term it—adver- for veterans but also in health and education. tising campaign being run by the government I will conclude my remarks there. in respect to the so-called new tax system. Sitting suspended from 6.30 p.m. to Certainly I, along with the rest of the Labor 7.30 p.m. Party and the majority of the Australian The CHAIRMAN—Order! The commit- community, believe it is an unprecedented, tee is considering A New Tax System (Trade massive propaganda campaign primarily to Practices Amendment) Bill 2000, as convince Australians of the need for a goods amended, and amendment No. 3 on sheet and services tax. 1806 moved by Senator Murray. The ques- We thought the campaign that was run tion is that that amendment be agreed to. prior to the last election was bad enough. I Senator COONEY (Victoria) (7.30 think it came close to $20 million, which— p.m.)—The intent of the amendment sug- surprise, surprise, and coincidentally—I say gested by Senator Murray is very good, that that somewhat sarcastically because I do not is, to ensure that money is properly spent in believe it was a coincidence—was publicly advertising. It is perhaps not as happily funded and ended shortly before the election framed as it could be. For example, the was called. The current campaign that is oc- amendment states: curring is at least 20 times that in terms of the cost. The government should be aware that a (1) A person must not authorise: number one premise of any advertising cam- (a) under any law of the Commonwealth, paign is that you have to have a good product the expenditure of public money on advertising otherwise you run the risk of reinforcing the 14574 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

That could be interpreted as parliamentarians ment within 5 sitting days of that House doing that, which would be a bit of a worry. after the day on which the Minister re- In fact, I am not sure why those first six ceives the report. words are in part (a). Why doesn’t it read ‘a (4B) On presentation of a copy of each re- person must not authorise the expenditure of port in the House of Representatives public money on advertising’? Another thing under subsection (4A), the report shall is that it tries to bind future legislators as to stand referred to the House of Repre- what they ought to do, and I am not sure that sentatives Standing Committee on Eco- nomics, Finance and Public Admini- you are able to do that. The more you look at stration. this amendment, the more one thinks that it ought to be put in a budget bill rather than (4C) As soon as practicable after the report has been received by the House of Rep- this sort of bill. I have never been keen on the resentatives Standing Committee on Trades Practices Act being used for anything Economics, Finance and Public Ad- other than for the purposes it was intended, ministration under subsection (4B), the that is, to make sure that the marketplace is in Chairperson, as a representative of the the consumer’s interest and is open. That is Commission, must appear before the why I have always objected to legislation Committee at a public hearing, in ac- against unions and picketers being in this act. cordance with arrangements agreed to I say to Senator Murray that the intent is by the Committee, to give evidence in good, but the framing is most unhappy. It connection with the report. might be a good idea to go away and think (5) Schedule 1, page 6 (after line 22), add: the expression through a little better. 11 After subsection 75AZ(4) of Part 2 Senator CONROY (Victoria) (7.32 of the Schedule p.m.)—I briefly indicate that, as Senator Insert: Faulkner has already said, we very much (4A) The Minister must cause a copy of each support the intent of the amendment, but, report received under subsection (1) to given the time constraints for which we are be tabled in each House of the Parlia- responsible in part, we would seek to oppose ment within 5 sitting days of that House this amendment in spirit only. We commit to after the day on which the Minister re- holding ongoing discussions with the Demo- ceives the report. crats and Senator Murray’s office so that we (4B) On presentation of a copy of each re- can work out a more comprehensive ap- port in the House of Representatives proach to this particular problem. I look for- under subsection (4A), the report shall stand referred to the House of Repre- ward to seeing how those discussions go. sentatives Standing Committee on Eco- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) nomics, Finance and Public Admini- (7.32 p.m.)—Briefly, I wanted to ensure that stration. the Labor Party understood that we were ex- (4C) As soon as practicable after the report cited about the prospect of talking to them has been received by the House of Rep- about this matter. We brought down Senator resentatives Standing Committee on Woodley to express excitement! Economics, Finance and Public Ad- ministration under subsection (4B), the Amendment not agreed to. Chairperson, as a representative of the Senator CONROY (Victoria) (7.33 Commission, must appear before the p.m.)—by leave—I move opposition amend- Committee at a public hearing, in ac- ments (3) and (5) on sheet 1791, revised: cordance with arrangements agreed to by the Committee, to give evidence in (3) Schedule 1, page 3 (after line 24), after item connection with the report. 2, insert: 2B After subsection 75AZ(4) We believe that what is set out in these amendments is an opportunity to make the Insert: ACCC far more accountable than it has been. (4A) The Minister must cause a copy of each Everywhere I travel at the moment, surpris- report received under subsection (1) to ingly, the business community pat me on the be tabled in each House of the Parlia- back, Senator McGauran. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14575

Senator McGauran—Do they know Bill reported with amendments; report about your industrial relations policy? adopted. Senator CONROY—They say ‘Good on Third Reading you. Someone has got to do something.’ Bill (on motion by Senator Ian Camp- Senator Sherry—No-one knows about bell) read a third time. the National Party. You are irrelevant now! NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM Senator CONROY—The National Party (MISCELLANEOUS) BILL 1999 have now reached the status of a star in most NEW BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM polling, which is usually too small to actually (VENTURE CAPITAL DEFICIT TAX) be accounted for, especially in Benalla. The BILL 1999 ACCC is a big issue in Benalla, let me tell you, Senator McGauran. I have said before, Second Reading and I will say it again, that I think you could Debate resumed from 6 March, on motion have been the candidate to pull Benalla out of by Senator Ian Campbell: the fire for the National Party. You could That these bills be now read a second time. have come in on your white horse and Senator COOK (Western Australia— calmed the fears about the ACCC in Benalla! Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senator Woodley—He would have done Senate) (7.37 p.m.)—These bills cover it too. various separate subject areas agreed between Senator CONROY—Thank you, Senator the government and the opposition as part of Woodley. I think you are right. This is an the business tax package. The bills cover re- amendment which, I think has been indi- funding of excess imputation credits, re- cated, we will be defeated on. So, notwith- moving the intercorporate dividend rebate on standing Senator McGauran’s provocations, I unfranked dividends, providing an income will hopefully pursue this matter quickly. tax exemption for venture capital distribu- tions from pooled development funds to Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Australian superannuation funds, the pooling (7.35 p.m.)—The items before us have some of depreciation allowances, and consequen- flaws. For instance, legislating for the chair- tial amendments flowing from the reduction man of the ACCC to appear before a House in the rate of company taxation. of Representatives standing committee is not necessary. Both houses do have the right to Since 1998, Labor has repeatedly called subpoena and both houses, if they wish, can for bipartisanship on business tax reform. make people appear before them. Professor After much urging by the business commu- Fels and other members of the commission nity, the government finally conceded the appear before the Senate estimates, and I am importance of such an approach. The Treas- told they enjoy every moment of it. Broadly urer finally accepted our offer of a common speaking, we understand that the reports will approach, to the benefit of the business in fact be made public. Perhaps the parlia- community and the nation. Business needs mentary secretary can confirm that. If that is certainty in its tax arrangements that goes so, we think the amendments just state the beyond one electoral cycle, and that can only obvious and are unnecessary. be achieved through support by the only two parties that can form a government. Labor Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western has delivered that certainty and has honoured Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the its word concerning support for the govern- Minister for Communications, Information ment’s legislation, including swift passage Technology and the Arts) (7.36 p.m.)—Yes, through parliament. That is what occurred that is the case. Under the code, the ACCC last year with the first business tax package, has to report publicly every three months. and we continue that facilitation tonight. Amendments not agreed to. However, cooperation is a two-way street. Bill, as amended, agreed to. Despite the measures in last year’s package and the important measures in these bills, 14576 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 vital integrity measures remain unlegislated. happen, but it has. We saw the example of Three key areas where parliament is awaiting Big W and the polar hockey children’s suit. Is legislation are: dependent contractors, non- it any wonder that the Treasurer fought so commercial losses, and the entity taxation hard to avoid dual tagging being allowed by regime. These are essential to meet the tests the retailers? Is it any wonder that he fought of revenue neutrality. At least two of these— so hard to keep the truth from being re- dependent contractors and non-commercial vealed? We know the truth hurts, and this losses—must be introduced this week, and government dwells on dishonesty at the ex- the entity taxation regime must be introduced pense of truth—aided and abetted by the for passage by 30 June to meet the time- Australian Democrats. The Treasurer has told tabling commitments made by the Treasurer. the parliament repeatedly that he did not The Treasurer’s agreement with Labor know that this was happening. If the Treas- promised not only that he would deliver the urer of the nation, who has introduced this above measures in name but that he would regressive tax, does not know what is hap- deliver measures that would raise the sub- pening, how does he expect the Australian stantial revenue that he promised. We want public to know what is happening? the Treasurer to sign off on that legislation so It does not end with the polar hockey suit. that it produces the same result as was in- There are now endless stories of pricing up cluded in the government’s calculations at the off the back of the GST. For all its bluster, time of the release of the package. There is when did the ACCC act and come out pub- no room to fudge for the Treasurer, no room licly on the Big W issue? It was only after to wiggle. He has a binding obligation to de- Labor raised it in this parliament. It would liver; yet, of course, we are still waiting. appear that the only investigations it ever It is a matter of great regret that, instead of makes is when Labor has raised them in the focusing fully on business tax reform—on parliament. We only have to look at the Big bedding down the legislation and informing W issue and at the Accor hotel group for the business community of the new regime— proof of that. the government has been obsessed, and is There are hundreds of horror stories in this now swamped, with trying to explain its dog of a tax. Big W and children’s clothing is nightmare on main street: the Howard-Lees just one of them. The Chairman of the GST. This obsession with the GST is about to ACCC, Professor Allan Fels, will jump in impose a massive burden on business, espe- front of a television camera as soon as you cially on small business. It will be difficult can blink, but he is very reluctant to turn up enough for small business to cope with the to Senate estimates to be asked questions changes in the business tax package, some of about the capacity of the ACCC to police this which are potentially very large, but they will dog of a tax. He very rarely attends. Appear- also have to cope with the GST, the new pay- ing before the very committee to which the as-you-go system, and a host of other issues ACCC is accountable is much too lowbrow, as well. Labor argued this was not all neces- it would seem. He is more than happy, sary, and again we have been shown to be though, to be in front of a television camera, correct. Unfortunately, there will be many threatening business with $10 million fines small business casualties from the govern- for telling the truth about the GST. ment’s debacle known as the Howard-Lees GST. The Treasurer has been caught out, time Let’s look at what happened to Big W. The and again, misleading the Australian public ACCC forced them, at government insis- over the GST price effect. He has consis- tence, to remove the dual tags. But do we tently said that, under the GST, prices never know whether Big W had priced their goods go up by 10 per cent. correctly or not? It is a very important ques- tion. No, we do not. Has the ACCC informed Senator McGauran—More than 10 per the public whether Big W had done the right cent. thing or not? Another important question. Senator COOK—He said it could never No, we do not know. All we get is the gov- go up by 10 per cent. He said that it could not ernment using the ACCC to harass and Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14577 threaten business for telling the truth. The risy. Given that he represents a marginal rural ACCC is now the government’s price censor. and regional electorate, is it any wonder that Whenever a business tells the truth about the he resorts to hypocrisy to try to save his po- GST, send in the ACCC price police to tell litical skin? One thing is for sure—the GST them politely they have got it wrong, because will not. The GST will be Minister Anthony’s the government has said so. death knell, and he knows it. All those thou- If people doubt that this is the approach of sands of caravan park residents cannot wait the government, it is telling that, after the to sound it at the next election. Prime Minister wrote a ‘please explain’ letter But there is more than just the GST. What to Mr Roger Corbett, the CEO of Wool- else has the Treasurer promised the electors worths, which owns the Big W chain, we had of Richmond? Let us look at what the Treas- on cue Woolworths writing back to the Prime urer wants to do to the people who live in Minister saying, ‘Sorry, we got it wrong. rural and regional electorates. At the top of Prices are now going up by only 1.1 per his list is a desire to cut wages and put up cent.’ So, before the issue became public, their petrol at the same time. This is the deal prices were going up by 10 per cent, but after that the Treasurer, with the support no doubt the Prime Minister wrote a ‘please explain’ of Minister Anthony, has promised regional letter and the ACCC shock troops were sent and rural Australia—lower wages with which in, a major chain the size of Woolworths all to pay for the GST and lower wages with of a sudden decided it had made a mistake. I which to buy more expensive fuel. What a say to Woolworths and Big W: ‘Don’t insult great deal for regional Australia that is! The our intelligence, but I understand fully why Treasurer’s concern for rural and regional you have tried.’ Australia is demonstrated by how often he This government has sought to deliber- visits—rarely. But, when he does, it is in a ately mislead the Australian public on the Commonwealth car with tinted windows, price effects of the GST, but it has been behind which he can hide from the electorate. found out. The public knows that prices will He knows, as does Minister Anthony, that the go up by the full 10 per cent Howard-Lees GST is rat poison in the bush, so when he GST, but Treasurer Costello continues to be- travels there on those rare occasions, he is lieve in the fantasy that no price will go up less than keen to be recognised as the person by the full 10 per cent. The Treasurer must be responsible for the GST’s introduction. the only person in the country who believes Turning back to the issue of the ACCC’s the GST will not lift prices by 10 per cent. harassment of business, we now know it was The government said that the inflation impact not only Big W that was threatened and har- of the GST would be 1.9 per cent. There is a assed by the government and the ACCC. big difference between 1.9 per cent and 10 There was also the Accor hotel group. It has per cent, yet the compensation package is since come to light that there were some very based on a 1.9 per cent inflation outcome, not agitated phone calls to the Accor group from 10 per cent. Consumers will be dudded the government. Once again, another busi- twice—dudded through higher prices and ness was threatened and harassed by the gov- dudded through inadequate compensation. ernment for being honest when they pro- We have the Prime Minister telling his duced a post-GST price list which showed colleagues in the party room to hold their that the full 10 per cent Howard-Lees GST nerve, ‘Don’t go out and break ranks; don’t was going to be fully passed on. back down.’ We had Minister Anthony in the We were told by the government, ‘If Accor other place saying that the 10 per cent tax is a put up its rates by the full 10 per cent, you great new thing, yet he is telling his elector- don’t have to stay there.’ The Treasurer obvi- ate that he is trying to get it eased from cara- ously does not see the need to heed that ad- van parks. This is a minister who speaks with vice, because he is booked into the Accor a forked tongue. He says one thing in parlia- Novotel at Brighton-le-Sands. He is booked ment and another thing in the electorate. in there for the Olympics. The Treasurer has Minister Anthony is the epitome of hypoc- a booking for something like 20 days in the 14578 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

King’s Suite, all paid for, GST and all, by the dend income they receive. Under this pro- Australian taxpayer. This is despite the posal, they will obtain a refund of their in- Treasurer telling John Laws that he will be at come tax from the Taxation Office, which home in front of the tellie with a pizza. When represents the excess imputation credits. La- will this man’s deceit ever end? I suspect a bor included this proposal in our taxation pizza ordered from the King’s Suite costs policy prior to the last election. Therefore, we considerably more than one ordered from the have no difficulty supporting the proposal local Pizza Hut. because it is our policy. It builds on the major The dual price-tagging system has demon- reform accomplished by Labor almost 15 strated that, once people are shown what the years ago and it improves the current taxation impact of this GST will be, they will realise system faced by low income investors, espe- how much money is being ripped out of their cially retired Australians. pockets every time they make a purchase, Secondly, there is the removal of the inter- and how much they have been deceived by corporate dividend rebate on unfranked divi- this government. The opposition has tried on dends. Currently, public companies obtain a four different occasions to have an amend- rebate, known as the dividend rebate, on ment passed that would ensure that the GST dividends they receive whether they are is disclosed on customer receipts, but the franked or not. This rebate leads to tax avoid- government and the Democrats have opposed ance opportunities which cost the revenue it each and every time. The opposition asks: several hundred million dollars per year. The what do they have to hide, particularly in bill proposes to remove the rebate except light of Coles-Myer’s decision that they will where dividends are paid within a company be mandating full GST disclosure on the re- group. This will bring public companies into ceipts they issue? line with the treatment of private companies. I will now turn to the specific proposals The measure will close significant tax avoid- contained in the bills. Firstly, the bills pro- ance opportunities, and is strongly supported vide for the refunding of excess imputation by Labor. This measure replaces an earlier credits. The dividend imputation system proposal, deferred company tax, which was ended the previous double taxation of divi- rejected by the Ralph inquiry because of the dend income and was a major business tax possible impact on foreign investment in reform introduced by Labor in 1986, under Australia. The measure will raise significant which companies paid dividends out of in- revenue: around $600 million over the next come on which they have paid company tax. five years, which is about $400 million less These are known as franked dividends. This than the deferred company tax proposal that means that the company tax paid on the in- it replaces. come is available as a credit to the share- Thirdly, there is the provision of an in- holder. The tax credit can then be used to come tax exemption for venture capital dis- offset the income tax payable by the share- tribution from pooled development funds to holder. Although imputation credits can be Australian superannuation funds. The bill used to reduce an individual’s or superannu- proposes to provide a significant stimulus to ation fund’s income tax liability to nil, excess venture capital investment by Australian su- credits were of no value to taxpayers. This perannuation funds. This is achieved by pro- bill proposes to refund to taxpayers any ex- viding a special rebate that allows superan- cess imputation credits that may be left after nuation funds to receive venture capital gains offsetting the credits against their income tax free of tax where they are earned through liability. The classic example of such a situa- investments in a pooled development fund. tion is a low income person who earns a little This is a significant reform and it is in line investment income—for example, a full-rate with Australian Labor Party policy. It will age pensioner. They face no income tax li- provide a significant incentive to superannu- ability on their income and therefore cannot ation funds to invest in Australian ventures. obtain the benefit of the excess franking The measure should increase the retirement credits attached to the small amount of divi- income of superannuation fund members Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14579 over the long term as they will have access to This is an area in which countries like the high, long run returns in the developing seg- US have had a long period of experience. We ments of the Australian economy. had to tap it and we needed to make the tax Labor supports, and indeed has long advo- system, along with other programs, ensure cated, a business tax system which fosters that we did. The US has probably had some investment, job growth and innovation, in- 30 years of experience in this area, and it is cluding greater investment in venture and not an experience that can be obtained over- patient capital and in research and develop- night—although it is very interesting that a ment. We support the greater commercialisa- country the size of Israel has made huge in- tion of Australia’s R&D and innovative ef- roads into this area, as has Ireland. Both of fort. This measure will assist that goal. But those countries have understood the impor- we have also argued that more is needed than tance of attracting not only the capital but simply changes to taxation. We need to de- also the expertise—the means by which the velop a venture capital-innovation culture in capital is managed wisely. So it is against that this country. Venture capital is an area for background that we welcome the initiatives which we were able to get bipartisan support in terms of the overseas pension funds, be- from the day the government announced their cause there was a barrier to venture capital business tax package. The reason for that of coming to Australia. course is that Labor took to the last election a It is also interesting to note that when we proposal in relation to venture capital took this issue to the last election the gov- whereby we recognised the need to attract ernment rubbished us on this measure—the overseas pension funds to this country. Those measure that they are now agreeing with us overseas pension funds operated in their own on. They said then that it would not work. At countries in circumstances in which the the time, they had obviously not considered capital gains tax was much lower than ap- the detail. It was too much of a knee-jerk plied here. Of course, if it were lower than response and too much of a rejection of the here, why would they invest here? notion that we should develop a bipartisan Our argument—because evidence had and agreed position on a number of these been put to us that we were missing out on areas. Now they have come to the party. The investment opportunities in the development government have picked up our suggestions. of this country, and of course the name of the We legislated the foreign pension fund meas- game has to be about jobs and the building of ures last year, and today we are dealing with our industries, and about new industries in the concession for Australian superannuation particular—was that this was a vital area that funds. We welcome these measures. The next needed to be attracted. So we proposed, go- area is the pooling of depreciation allow- ing into the last election, changes to attract ances. (Time expired) the US pension funds. But the notion was not Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) just to attract their capital; there was also the (7.57 p.m.)—This is one of those occasions notion that, if you have got their capital, you on which there is going to be cross-party would also attract their expertise: the people agreement. Frankly, I was surprised that these who actually manage the investments—man- bills—the New Business Tax System (Mis- age the venture capital—and who have expe- cellaneous) Bill 1999 and the New Business rience in taking up the idea and working it Tax System (Venture Capital Deficit Tax) Bill through the start-up phase to commercialisa- 1999—did not go into the non-controversial tion. We also require that these funds invest section. The Democrats are known to support in partnerships with Australians so that we these measures, and there has not been any can instil that culture and develop the net- controversy attached to them. works of expertise so that we can keep more Senator Cook, in the relevant half of his of the inventions and the research here and speech, outlined the provisions quite well. develop them more here to the nation’s ad- Briefly speaking, the bills deny the intercor- vantage. porate dividend for unfranked dividend pay- ments between resident companies that are 14580 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 not members of a company group. They al- velopment funds to Australian superannua- low refund of excess dividend imputation tion funds; fourthly, pooling of depreciation credits. They exempt from tax franked divi- allowances and, fifthly, some consequential dends paid to resident complying superannu- amendments flowing from the reduction in ation funds and similar bodies by pooled de- the rate of company tax. This is a part of the velopment funds. They allow items with a government’s business tax reforms which the value of less than $1,000 to be pooled for the Labor Party is supporting. calculation of depreciation deductions. They It is the third area—providing a tax ex- also, through the venture capital deficit tax emption for venture capital distributions from bill, impose formally a tax on a deficit in a pooled development funds to Australian su- pooled development fund’s venture capital perannuation funds—that I intend to make a franking sub-account and provide for the cal- few remarks about. The bill itself proposes to culation of the amount of tax payable. provide a significant stimulus to venture Having said all that, I am sure that, if capital investment by Australian superannua- anybody was bothering to listen or was ob- tion funds. This is achieved by providing a serving this debate, their eyes would have special rebate that allows superannuation glazed over. It can be frighteningly boring. funds to receive venture capital gains free of Nevertheless, these measures affect probably tax through a pooled development fund. One hundreds of millions of dollars and they are a of the more obvious reasons that Labor are useful addition to the anti-tax avoidance supporting this legislation is that it is in line measures that the government are introduc- with Labor policy. I stress that: it is in line ing. They are a consequence of the Ralph with Labor policy. It is a policy that we took business tax review. I think it is highly com- to the last election. I note in passing—I do mendable of the government to have intro- not want to be overly negative—that the cur- duced these measures as rapidly as they rent government criticised our policy at the could. time in the lead-up to the election and The one last remark I would make is that it claimed that it was unnecessary and una- is notable that the government has introduced chievable. I note in this evening’s debate that a set of amendments. That is another example it has decided to adopt something very simi- of how complex and difficult this legislation lar. This change will provide a significant is—that even where it is agreed, there is al- incentive to superannuation funds to invest in ways some need to review it and to make it Australian ventures and the measure should even more applicable and more wide ranging. increase the retirement income of superannu- None of this legislation is easy for any but ation fund members over the long term. I will people familiar with tax legislation to read, say a little more about that later. and we must always be conscious of that dif- Before I make some detailed comments ficulty which is there for the profession and about superannuation funds and some more for us with bills of this sort. That is all I want general comments about venture capital, I to say. The Democrats will support it and we want to emphasise that the consequential will be supporting the government amend- amendments on the reduction in the rate of ments. (Quorum formed) company tax relate to the dividend imputa- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (8.04 tion system and the tax concessions applying p.m.)—The legislation we are considering is to infrastructure borrowings, known as IB, the New Business Tax System (Venture that need to be adjusted when the company Capital Deficit Tax) Bill 1999 and I intend to tax rate is changed in order to maintain the make a few remarks about the legislation. current effective treatment of the dividend Briefly, the bill covers five main areas: imputation system and the IB concession. I firstly, the refunding of excess imputation make the fairly brief but firm point that it is credits; secondly, the removal of the intercor- often claimed by the current government that porate dividend rebate on unfranked divi- Labor did not carry out any major changes to dends; thirdly, providing a tax exemption for the Australian tax system during its 13 years venture capital distributions from pooled de- in government. That is simply not correct. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14581

There are numerous examples of significant As the pool of superannuation funds con- change, and dividend imputation is one of tinues to grow for the reasons that I have those very important changes that the Labor touched on—the superannuation guarantee, government implemented when in office. It in particular—we currently have some $360 was a very important change to the company billion in superannuation funds in Australia, tax system which the Liberal-National parties and this figure is rising quickly. could not find the will or determination to Senator Kemp—Tremendous growth. support when in office prior to Labor taking government in 1983. Before passing from Senator SHERRY—It is tremendous this issue to the next issue, we should note growth. I might say in response to the inter- that prior to 1983 the current Prime Minister jection from Senator Kemp that, in contrast was Treasurer of this country for a significant to the very negative approach of this gov- period of time, but Mr Howard did not tackle ernment to superannuation in two important this issue and other major tax issues during areas— the period when he was the Treasurer of this Senator Kemp interjecting— country. Senator SHERRY—Because of the su- I would like to turn to the issue of super- perannuation guarantee, not because of any- annuation funds and address it in a little more thing you have done, Senator Kemp. I was detail. I firstly want to make the point that the provoked, Mr Acting Deputy President. I existing national superannuation system in want to mention two important areas that the this country is a result of Labor policy and current Liberal-National government have Labor initiatives in government. I do not neglected in superannuation. Actually, ‘ne- want to speak in too much detail on this, but I glect’ is the wrong word: they have made want to note that the Labor Party made sig- changes that have been counterproductive for nificant, positive changes to superannuation Australia’s superannuation savings pool. when in government during that period from One, of course, is the so-called superannua- 1983 to 1996. One of the major changes was tion surcharge—tax by another name—which the introduction of the superannuation guar- broke the election promise made by Senator antee charge. It is currently at seven per cent, Kemp and others in the lead-up to the 1996 going to eight per cent from 1 July and election of no new taxes and no increase in moving up to nine per cent by 2002. It en- existing taxes. There is a range of other sured that all Australian workers could have problems in respect of this matter that I have superannuation. At the time, in 1983, about spoken about on other occasions. The Lib- 40 per cent of Australians had superannua- eral-National parties are fond of talking about tion. This was a very important initiative that the l-a-w law tax cuts that Labor converted spread superannuation to almost every Aus- into a superannuation co-contribution of tralian employee, and it has very important some $4.5 billion, which the current Liberal- consequences for long-term retirement in- National parties pledged to maintain. They comes. I noticed in the media tonight some then converted that into a savings rebate. data about life expectancy in Australia. After That savings rebate was passed into l-a-w Japan, Australia has the second longest life law, and it lasted all of six months. What expectancy of any nation in the world at 73 happened to those moneys that were sup- years of age on average. That carries very posed to go into, firstly, superannuation and significant implications for Australia’s future then into some sort of long-term savings ini- retirement incomes policy. So it was Labor tiative? They were delivered in the form of that established an effective, comprehensive tax cuts—they helped to fund the tax cuts— superannuation system in this country—a needed to attempt to bribe the Australian major reform, a critical reform, that has left population to accept the goods and services us in a far stronger position to tackle the is- tax. So the superannuation contribution has sues associated with that ageing population had a very interesting history. It started out as than most comparable economies in the income tax cuts. It then became a superannu- world. ation contribution for long-term savings. Un- der this current government, it became a 14582 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 savings rebate, and then it was turned into raise some $300 million. That is a total of bribes to tempt people to accept the GST. It is about $600 million to $800 million. It is in- an interesting square that those tax cuts have teresting to note that up until 1997 total in- travelled. vestment in Australia and New Zealand in With the rapid growth of superannuation this area came, by comparison, to a figure of funds in Australia, it is important that we approximately $346 million. Briefly, in re- have available a mixture of asset classes for spect of the last fund I mentioned—the larg- that growing pool to be invested in. It is im- est, the Development Australia Fund of $300 portant that there is a range of diversified million—it is important to note that this is alternative options that are made available to largely being funded by four industry super- those superannuation funds. In Australia, annuation funds: C-BUS, ARF, STA and superannuation funds typically invest be- HESTA. These funds and others in that in- tween two and three per cent of assets in dustry sector make a very important contri- capital. In the United States, that figure is bution to capital accumulation and invest- more than double the Australian percentage. ment in Australia. It is a sector that the cur- rent government wrongly claims is union Labor identifies three types of opportuni- dominated. That is not correct. They are ties in this area. The first is growth. A busi- trustee funds with joint employer-employee ness has essentially exhausted its existing trustees who have a blocking veto over each capital resources and needs additional funds other. They are well-run funds and they are to expand, and obviously young, growing funds that this government is anxious to de- companies fit into this category. The second stroy. That is another issue that I will not go is in the area of structural change, such as a into detail on today. management buy-out or a management buy- in, and the third, very importantly, is in the Why is it important to make this tax area of start-up capital. It is also important, as change in the area of investment capital? I part of this measure, that where necessary— touched on the three types of opportunities and I stress ‘where necessary’—because Aus- that are available. It is also important that we tralia is a net capital importer, we are able to enable businesses to remain in Australia, to attract such capital from overseas, particu- grow here and, if possible, to avoid having to larly from the United States. As was high- relocate overseas. It is very important to pro- lighted by my colleague Senator Cook today vide a stimulus, particularly in knowledge in question time, we have only got to look at intensive businesses such as software, bio- the state of Australia’s national debt, the 40 technology, semiconductors, communications per cent increase in Australia’s national debt and Internet services. This is not an exclusive under the Liberal and National parties, to list; there are also other areas that I have realise that it is very important to be able to knowledge of with respect to primary indus- attract capital from overseas. try and manufacturing, particularly value adding in the manufacturing sector, where It is interesting to note that recently a these funds can play an important role. To number of pooled investment funds have ensure the growth of the Australian economy been launched. At least four new major funds and our ability to commercialise intellectual have been announced and opened to sub- property, to convert ideas into positive, pro- scribers. Whilst obviously it is not my role to ductive outcomes, it is very important that we promote such funds, I think it is important to maximise our opportunities in this particular briefly touch on those that have recently been area. As I mentioned earlier, Labor acknowl- established. We have Wilshire Global Advi- edged this in its commitments prior to the last sors, one of the largest funds in the world. election, particularly with respect to attract- They aim to raise between $100 million and ing overseas capital from the United States, $200 million. We have the Mercantile Mutual where there are very significant savings in Investment Management fund, which aims to what is known as 401K retirement income raise about $100 million; Macquarie Bank, funds. There is some truth in saying that the $125 million; and the Development Australia capital gains tax regime does inhibit growth Fund, known as DAF2, which is aiming to in some of these areas. I accept that that ar- Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14583 gument has some validity. But at the same Senator KEMP—I will indulge myself time we must remember that the capital gains slightly at the end and make a few observa- tax is an equitable tax, introduced by a Labor tions on your comments, Senator, which I government, I might say, and one which I think you would expect. The government would strongly defend. The capital gains tax welcomes the strong support which the New is an equitable tax and it is a necessary part Business Tax System (Miscellaneous) Bill of an equitable tax system. 1999 and the New Business Tax System The legislation that we are considering is (Venture Capital Deficit Tax) Bill 1999 have very important. I do understand the concerns received from the chamber. I do not always that Senator Murray expressed earlier that have the option of making that comment sometimes when people—not too many to- during the second reading debate. We wel- night, I note—are listening to debate they get come that support. Obviously, we are very somewhat bewildered by the tax changes that pleased to be able to legislate business tax we sometimes consider. I have to say to reforms such as those in this legislation. As Senator Murray that I cannot blame him for all senators will be aware, the significant thinking that in respect of the GST. We have business tax reforms being introduced by this been here on that issue hour after hour, day government are based on the Ralph review of after day. Senator Kemp well knows the es- taxation. This review undertook probably a timates process we have just been through— unique consultation with industry and the many hours of considering GST matters. It is business community before coming to its certainly not a simpler tax system, and there final recommendations. Naturally, the gov- are a lot of other problems besides that. ernment carefully considered those recom- Anyway, my colleagues and I have com- mendations and a wide range of measures mented on aspects of the GST and we will representing the first two phases of the gov- continue to comment on many issues to do ernment’s response to the recommendations with it for some time to come. were announced in September and Novem- ber. The government has acted quickly to In summary and in conclusion, the legislate these measures so that benefits such changes we are considering are good for as lower company tax rates and capital gains business. They are necessary for business. tax reforms can be delivered in a timely They will encourage diversity, innovation fashion to Australian businesses. The meas- and growth and I think also, importantly, will ures in these bills build on the improvements give some stimulus to funding that is an al- made in legislation previously considered in ternative to the banking system. It will be this place. These measures will encourage good for fund members whose money is in- investment, reduce compliance costs and im- vested in this particular area. I note that these prove the structure and integrity of the busi- types of funds do generally have a higher ness tax system. Refunds of excess imputa- investment return than is averaged through tion credits will provide considerable benefits other types of investment. That is a good for many investors, particularly self-funded thing. It is a good thing to maximise returns retirees. The proposed government amend- to fund members. Finally, I think it will have ments will extend this measure. an effect on Australian ownership and on the Australian economy. It is good for growth Another measure in these bills will en- and good for jobs, which is why the Austra- courage investment that is providing for im- lian Labor Party is supporting this legislation. putation credits where pooled development funds pay dividends to Australian superannu- Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant ation funds from gains made on venture Treasurer) (8.22 p.m.)—‘Good for growth and capital investments. The pooling scheme for good for jobs’ were the last words that we low cost items of plant introduced in this heard from Senator Sherry. At the end of a legislation represents a significant diminution somewhat long and, in many ways, tedious in compliance costs for many businesses, speech, it was good to hear his great enthusi- which all of us in this chamber will certainly asm— welcome. In particular, the measure will Senator Sherry—It was relevant. benefit businesses which hold many items of 14584 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 plant that either cost less than $1,000 or have not like the surcharge, you have had an been written down to a value of less than enormously long period of time in which to $1,000. The single pool will replace the mul- propose an alternative. As Senator Conroy titude of individual records that businesses said, you spend 96 per cent of your waking are currently obliged to keep for this type of hours thinking about this surcharge. plant. Removing the intercorporate dividend Senator Sherry—That’s not true any- rebate on unfranked dividends is an impor- more. tant integrity measure. Finally, the bills con- tain amendments to the imputation system Senator KEMP—That is not true any- and the infrastructure borrowings rebate to more. He has gone down to 85 per cent of his reflect lower company rates. waking hours. Never has more thought been given to a measure with less obvious work Let me make a number of observations on coming out. It was an astonishing period with some of the matters that Senator Sherry utter confusion and a particular lack of work raised. First of all, I welcome at last the con- and activity. If the Labor Party wanted an cession from Senator Sherry. Only I in this alternative, they certainly did not produce it chamber will know how important that con- in the last election. They have now had some cession is. Senator Sherry knows exactly three years to come up with an alternative what I am going to say. Senator Sherry is system and have utterly failed—a very lazy now on record as recognising the really very effort from the Labor Party. strong growth of the superannuation industry in Australia. Then Senator Sherry mentioned co- contribution. Excuse me, but I don’t think Senator Sherry—Because of the superan- that was Labor Party policy at the last elec- nuation guarantee, and don’t quote me out of tion. It is a bit rich to attack us for not having context. a co-contribution policy when it was not the Senator KEMP—Senator Sherry, you are policy of your own party. Senator Sherry so sensitive for a senator. Allow me three made some outrageous comments on the minutes to make the point. Only I know how government’s attitude to industry funds. significant that statement is from Senator Those comments are quite untrue. The gov- Sherry acknowledging the great growth in the ernment see a valid place for industry funds. superannuation industry under this govern- Senator Sherry—Rubbish. You can’t wait ment. One of my first jobs as Assistant to get your hands around their necks. Treasurer was to withstand a withering attack from Senator Sherry on the superannuation Senator KEMP—Senator Sherry, it may surcharge. This was before Senator Sherry suit your narrow union agenda to talk like reversed the policy, which the opposition this, but this government does not hold the now supports. Senator Sherry said that this views which you attribute to it. Finally, let would destroy confidence in superannuation, me make the very obvious point that the ma- that people would not invest in superannua- jor reform in superannuation is to provide tion. Senator Sherry took some very careful choice. advice on this, but because time is short, I Senator Sherry—How is that going? will not even mention his advisers in this Senator KEMP—Just hold on and wait. area. Thank you, Senator Sherry; at last you Of course, it would have all got through had have conceded that there has been great the Labor Party been allowed to keep its growth in superannuation. Then Senator promise. Senator Sherry opposes a major Sherry said he was unhappy with the sur- reform in superannuation. Let me go on rec- charge. The Labor Party supported the sur- ord as saying we will have a debate on this charge in the lower house and opposed the issue at a different time. surcharge in this chamber. Then it reversed Senator Sherry—Exactly. its position and went to the election support- ing the surcharge. As far as I know, support Senator KEMP—Senator Sherry, I share for the surcharge remains Labor Party policy. more confidence in the capacity of the Aus- All I can say to Senator Sherry is: if you do tralian worker and indeed the industry funds Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14585 than you do. Choice is a very good thing for workers. Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 Senator Sherry—This is not important. I 6A Section 160APA didn’t go on about this. Insert: Senator KEMP—You did go on, Senator entity has the same meaning as in the Sherry, and I am just responding. I conclude Income Tax Assessment Act 1997. by noting once again that I understand all 6B Section 160APA senators in this chamber support the reforms that this government is bringing in in this Insert: bill. exempt institution means an entity whose ordinary and statutory income Senator Chris Evans—They did until (within the meaning of the Income Tax your speech. Assessment Act 1997) are exempt from Senator KEMP—Senator Evans, I will income tax because of Division 50 of not even talk about your flip-flops recently, that Act. which were embarrassing. I commend this (2) Schedule 2, page 11, after proposed new very important legislation to the chamber. item 6B, insert: Question resolved in the affirmative. 6C Subparagraph 160AQT(1AB)(b)(iv) Bills read a second time. Repeal the subparagraph, substitute: In Committee (iv) a registered organisation; or The bills. (v) an exempt institution whose ex- The CHAIRMAN (8.31 p.m.)—I have a empt status is disregarded in rela- statement to read regarding this bill. The tion to the dividend under sec- government amendments to the New Busi- tion 160ARDAB; and ness Tax System (Miscellaneous) Bill 1999 6D After subsection 160AQT(4) have been circulated as requests. There ap- Insert: pears to be no basis for them taking the form (4A) Disregard section 50-1 of the Income of requests. They do not result in increased Tax Assessment Act 1997 in determin- expenditure out of any appropriations and ing, for the purposes of this section, they have applied tax relief rather than in- whether a dividend is exempt income of creased taxation for taxpayers. They should an exempt institution whose exempt not be requests on any possible interpretation status is disregarded in relation to the of the relevant constitutional provisions. dividend under section 160ARDAB. They will therefore be treated as amend- (3) Schedule 2, page 11, after proposed new ments. item 6D, insert: Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant 6E Subparagraph 160AQU(1)(b)(ii) Treasurer) (8.32 p.m.)—Madam Chair, I table Repeal the subparagraph, substitute: a supplementary explanatory memorandum (ii) a trustee (other than the trustee of relating to the government amendments to be an eligible entity within the moved to the New Business Tax System meaning of Part IX or of an ex- (Miscellaneous) Bill 1999. The memorandum empt institution whose exempt was circulated in the chamber on 11 May. I status is disregarded in relation to seek leave to move government amendments the dividend under sec- Nos 1 to 7 together. tion 160ARDAB); Leave granted. 6F At the end of section 160AQU Add: Senator KEMP—I move: (3) Disregard section 50-1 of the Income (1) Schedule 2, page 11 (after line 11), after Tax Assessment Act 1997 in determin- item 6, insert: ing, for the purposes of subsection (1), the amount included under sec- tion 160AQT in the assessable income 14586 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

of an exempt institution whose exempt notional trust amount, in relation to an status is disregarded in relation to the exempt institution, is an amount that dividend concerned under sec- would be a trust amount of the institu- tion 160ARDAB. tion if section 50-1 of the Income Tax (4) Schedule 2, page 11, after proposed new Assessment Act 1997 had not been en- item 6F, insert: acted. 6G Subsection 160AQW(1) related transaction, in relation to a dividend or notional trust amount, After “section 128D”, insert “of this means an act, transaction or circum- Act or section 50-1 of the Income Tax stance that has occurred, will occur, or Assessment Act 1997”. may reasonably be expected to occur as (5) Schedule 2, page 11, after proposed new part of, in connection with or as a result item 6G, insert: of: 6H At the end of section 160AQWA (a) the payment or receipt of the divi- Add: dend; or (2) In determining the entitlement to a re- (b) the arising of the entitlement to, or bate under section 160AQX of an ex- the distribution or receipt of, the no- empt institution whose exempt status is tional trust amount; or disregarded in relation to the trust (c) any arrangement entered into in as- amount concerned under sec- sociation with: tion 160ARDAB, assume that sec- (i) the payment or receipt of the tion 50-1 of the Income Tax Assessment dividend; or Act 1997 had not been enacted. (ii) the arising of the entitlement to, (6) Schedule 2, page 11, after proposed new or the distribution or receipt of, item 6H, insert: the notional trust amount. 6I Subparagraph 160AQX(1)(b)(ii) Controller of exempt institution that is a Repeal the subparagraph, substitute: company (ii) a registered organisation (other (2) An entity is a controller of an exempt than a trustee); or institution that is a company if the en- (iii) an exempt institution (other than tity is a controller of the company (for a trustee) whose exempt status is CGT purposes) within the meaning of disregarded in relation to the trust section 140-20 of the Income Tax As- amount under sec- sessment Act 1997. tion 160ARDAB; and Controller of exempt institution other (7) Schedule 2, page 11, after proposed new than a company—basic meaning item 6I, insert: (3) Subject to subsections (5) and (6), an 6J After Division 7 of Part IIIAA entity is a controller of an exempt in- stitution that is not a company if: Insert: DIVISION 7AA—FRANKING REBATES (a) a group in relation to the entity has the power, by means of the exercise FOR CERTAIN EXEMPT INSTITUTIONS of a power of appointment or revo- 160ARDAA Definitions cation or otherwise, to obtain benefi- (1) In this Division: cial enjoyment (directly or indi- ABN has the meaning given by the A rectly) of the capital or income of the New Tax System (Australian Business institution; or Number) Act 1999. (b) a group in relation to the entity is arrangement has the same meaning as able (directly or indirectly) to control in the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997. the application of the capital or in- come of the institution; or associate has the same meaning as in section 318. (c) a group in relation to the entity is capable, under a scheme, of gaining controller, in relation to an exempt in- the beneficial enjoyment referred to stitution, has the meaning given by sub- in paragraph (a) or the control re- sections (2) to (6) (inclusive). ferred to in paragraph (b); or Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14587

(d) the institution or, if the institution is (6) Without limiting paragraph (5)(b), the a trust, the trustee of the trust: Commissioner may have regard under (i) is accustomed; or that paragraph to the identity of the beneficiaries of the trust at any time be- (ii) is under an obligation; or fore and at any time after the entity be- (iii) might reasonably be expected; gan to be a controller of the institution to act in accordance with the direc- if the institution is a trust. tions, instructions or wishes of a 160ARDAB Certain exempt institutions group in relation to the entity; or eligible for rebates in relation to franking (e) a group in relation to the entity is credits able (directly or indirectly) to re- (1) The exempt status of an exempt institu- move or appoint the trustee of the tion is disregarded for the purposes of trust if the institution is a trust; or determining its entitlement to a rebate (f) a group in relation to the entity has under Division 6, 6A or 7 of this Part in more than a 50% stake in the income relation to a dividend or notional trust or capital of the institution; or amount if: (g) entities in a group in relation to the (a) it satisfies subsection (2), (3), (4), (5) entity are the only entities that, under or (6); and the terms of: (b) section 160ARDAC (anti-avoidance (i) the constitution of the institution provision) does not apply to the or the terms on which the institu- dividend or notional trust amount; tion is established; or and (ii) the terms of the trust if the insti- (c) subsection (8) (chains of exempt tution is a trust; institutions) does not apply to the can obtain the beneficial enjoyment notional trust amount. of the income or capital of the insti- (2) The institution’s exempt status is disre- tution. garded if the institution: (4) For the purposes of subsection (3), each (a) is covered by item 1.1, 1.5, 1.5A or of the following constitute a group in 1.5B of the table in section 50-5 of relation to an entity: the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997; and (a) the entity acting alone; (b) is endorsed as exempt from income (b) an associate of the entity acting tax under Subdivision 50-B of the alone; Income Tax Assessment Act 1997; (c) the entity and one or more associates and of the entity acting together; (c) is a resident. (d) 2 or more associates of the entity Note: Paragraph (c)—see subsec- acting together. tion (7). Controller of exempt institution that is not a company—deemed absence of (3) The institution’s exempt status is disre- garded if the institution: control (a) is endorsed under paragraph (5) If: 30-120(a) of the Income Tax As- (a) at a particular time, an entity is a sessment Act 1997; and controller of an exempt institution (b) is a resident. that is not a company; and Note: Paragraph (b)—see subsec- (b) the Commissioner, having regard to tion (7). all relevant circumstances, considers that it is reasonable that the entity be (4) The institution’s exempt status is disre- taken not to be a controller of the in- garded if: stitution at the particular time; (a) the institution’s name is specified in the entity is taken not to be a con- a table in a section in Subdivi- troller of the institution at the par- sion 30-B of the Income Tax Assess- ticular time. ment Act 1997; and (b) the institution has an ABN; and 14588 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

(c) the institution is a resident. (ii) the amount or value of the benefit Note: Paragraph (c)—see subsec- derived by the institution because tion (7). of the notional trust amount is, will be, or may reasonably be ex- (5) The institution’s exempt status is disre- pected to be, less than the amount garded if: or value of the notional trust (a) a declaration by the Treasurer is in amount at the time when the no- force in relation to the institution tional trust amount arose. under subsection 30-85(2) of the In- The amount or value of the dividend come Tax Assessment Act 1997; and or notional trust amount is to be in- (b) the regulations do not provide that creased to include the value of any the institution’s exempt status is not franking rebate to which the institu- to be disregarded for the purposes of tion would be entitled if this section this Division. did not apply to the dividend or no- (6) The institution’s exempt status is disre- tional trust amount. garded if the institution is prescribed by (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to the the regulations as an institution whose dividend or notional trust amount if: exempt status is to be disregarded for (a) the only reason why paragraph (2)(b) the purposes of this Division. is satisfied is that the institution has (7) For the purposes of this section, the incurred, will incur, or may reasona- institution is a resident if the institution bly be expected to incur, expenses has a physical presence in Australia for the purpose of obtaining the and, to that extent, incurs its expendi- dividend or notional trust amount ture and pursues its objectives princi- (and the associated franking rebate); pally in Australia at all times during the and year of income in which the dividend is (b) the expenses are, in the Commis- paid or the entitlement to the notional sioner’s opinion, reasonable in rela- trust amount arises. tion to the value of the dividend or (8) The institution’s exempt status is not notional trust amount. disregarded in relation to a notional (4) Subject to subsection (11), the institu- trust amount if the notional trust tion’s exempt status is not disregarded amount arises because of a dividend if: paid to, or a notional trust amount of, another exempt institution. (a) there is a related transaction in rela- tion to the dividend or notional trust 160ARDAC Franking rebates denied in amount; and certain circumstances (b) because of the related transaction, (1) The exempt institution’s exempt status the institution or another entity: is not disregarded in relation to a divi- dend or notional trust amount if sub- (i) makes, becomes liable to make, section (2), (4), (5), (6), (7), (9) or (10) or may reasonably be expected to is satisfied. None of those subsections make or to become liable to limits any of the others. make, a payment to any entity; or (2) The institution’s exempt status is not (ii) transfers, becomes liable to trans- disregarded if: fer, or may reasonably be ex- pected to transfer or to become li- (a) there is a related transaction in rela- able to transfer, any property to tion to the dividend or notional trust any entity; or amount; and (iii) incurs, becomes liable to incur, or (b) because of the related transaction: may reasonably be expected to (i) the amount or value of the benefit incur or to become liable to incur, derived by the institution because any other detriment, disadvan- of the dividend is, will be, or may tage, liability or obligation. reasonably be expected to be, less (5) Subject to subsection (11), the institu- than the amount or value of the tion’s exempt status is not disregarded dividend at the time when the if: dividend was paid; or Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14589

(a) there is a related transaction in rela- is satisfied, having regard to all the cir- tion to the dividend or notional trust cumstances, that it would be reasonable amount; and to treat the notional trust amount as (b) because of the related transaction: having been distributed to the institu- tion during the year of income. (i) the company that paid the divi- dend or an associate of that com- (9) The institution’s exempt status is not pany; or disregarded in relation to a notional trust amount if: (ii) the trustee of the trust in relation to which the notional trust (a) the trustee of the trust in relation to amount arises or an associate of which the notional trust amount that trustee; arises makes a distribution to the in- stitution in relation to the notional has obtained, will obtain or may trust amount; and reasonably be expected to obtain a benefit, advantage, right or privilege. (b) the distribution to any extent takes the form of property other than Note: Section 160ARDAE makes spe- money; and cial provision in relation to benefits provided by an exempt (c) the terms and conditions on which institution to its controller. the distribution is made are such that the institution: (6) The institution’s exempt status is not disregarded in relation to a dividend if: (i) does not receive immediate cus- tody and control of the property; (a) the dividend to any extent takes the or form of property other than money; and (ii) does not have the unconditional right to retain custody and control (b) the terms and conditions on which of the property in perpetuity to the dividend is paid are such that the the exclusion of the trustee or an institution: associate of the trustee; or (i) does not receive immediate cus- (iii) does not obtain an immediate, tody and control of the property; indefeasible and unencumbered or legal and equitable title to the (ii) does not have the unconditional property. right to retain custody and control (10) Subject to subsection (11), the institu- of the property in perpetuity to tion’s exempt status is not disregarded the exclusion of the company or if: an associate of the company; or (a) an arrangement is entered into as (iii) does not obtain an immediate, part of, or in association with, the indefeasible and unencumbered payment of the dividend or the aris- legal and equitable title to the ing of the entitlement to, or the dis- property. tribution of, the notional trust (7) The institution’s exempt status is not amount; and disregarded in relation to a notional (b) because of the arrangement the in- trust amount that arises in a year of in- stitution or another entity has ac- come if the total value of the payments quired or will acquire (whether di- of money, and transfers of property, by rectly or indirectly) property, other the trustee to the institution from the than property comprising the divi- trust that: dend or notional trust amount, from: (a) occur during the year of income; and (i) the company or an associate of (b) are attributable to notional trust the company; or amounts that arose during the year of (ii) the trustee of the trust in relation income; to which the notional trust are less than the total amount of those amount arises or an associate of notional trust amounts. the trustee. (8) Subsection (7) does not apply to a no- tional trust amount if the Commissioner 14590 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

(11) Subsection (4), (5) or (10) does not this subsection, would have pre- apply to the dividend or notional trust vented the institution’s exempt status amount if: from being disregarded in relation to (a) the institution has the choice of: the dividend or notional trust amount: (i) receiving payment of the dividend or notional trust amount; or (i) the institution; (ii) being issued with shares in the (ii) the company that paid the divi- company that paid the dividend or dend or the trustee of the trust in fixed interests in the trust estate in relation to which the notional relation to which the notional trust amount arises; trust amount arises; and (iii) any other entity involved in, con- (b) the institution is under no obligation nected with or party to the related (whether express or implied and transaction or arrangement. whether legally enforceable or not) Note: Subparagraph (11)(a)(ii)—for either to choose to take, or to choose fixed interest see subsec- not to take, the shares or interests tions (12) to (15). rather than receiving payment of the A vested and indefeasible interest con- dividend or notional trust amount; stitutes a fixed interest and (12) For the purposes of subsection (11), a (c) the institution chooses to be issued taxpayer’s interest in a trust estate is a with the shares or fixed interests; fixed interest if it is a vested and inde- and feasible interest in the corpus of the (d) subsection (4), (5) or (10) would, but trust estate. for this subsection, apply to the divi- Case where interest not defeasible dend or notional trust amount be- cause the institution makes that (13) If: choice; and (a) the trust is a unit trust and the tax- (e) making that choice furthers the pur- payer holds units in the unit trust; pose for which the institution was and established; and (b) the units are redeemable or further (f) the institution does not make that units are able to be issued; and choice for the purpose, or purposes (c) where units in the unit trust are listed that include the purpose, of benefit- for quotation in the official list of an ing: approved stock exchange (within the (i) the company that paid the divi- meaning of section 470)—the units dend; or held by the taxpayer will be re- deemed, or any further units will be (ii) the trustee of the trust in relation issued, for the price at which other to which the notional trust units of the same kind in the unit amount arises; or trust are offered for sale on the ap- (iii) an associate of that company or proved stock exchange at the time of trustee (other than the institution); the redemption or issue; and and (d) where the units are not listed as (g) any benefit obtained by the com- mentioned in paragraph (c)—the pany, trustee or associate because the units held by the taxpayer will be re- institution makes that choice is an deemed, or any further units will be ordinary incident of issuing the issued, for their market value at the shares or interests to the institution time of the redemption or issue; or of the institution’s holding of then the mere fact that the units are those shares or interests; and redeemable, or that the further units (h) the following deal with one another are able to be issued, does not mean on an arm’s length basis in relation that the taxpayer’s interest, as a unit to any related transaction or ar- holder, in the corpus of the trust es- rangement in relation to the dividend tate is defeasible. or notional trust amount that, but for Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14591

Commissioner may determine an inter- (e) the Commissioner gives the con- est to be vested and indefeasible troller written notice: (14) If: (i) stating that the controller is liable (a) a taxpayer has an interest in the cor- to pay an amount under this sec- pus of a trust estate; and tion; and (b) apart from this subsection, the inter- (ii) specifying the amount that the est would not be a vested or indefea- controller is liable to pay. sible interest; and Except as provided for in subsec- (c) the Commissioner considers that the tion (5), this subsection does not af- interest should be treated as being fect any liability the institution has in vested and indefeasible, having re- relation to the refund. gard to: Note: Section 160ARDAF also pro- (i) the circumstances in which the vides that the exempt institu- interest is capable of not vesting tion’s present entitlement to a or the defeasance can happen; and notional trust amount is disre- garded for the purposes of Divi- (ii) the likelihood of the interest not sion 6 of Part III. vesting or the defeasance hap- pening; and (2) An entity that is dissatisfied with a de- cision of the Commissioner under sub- (iii) the nature of the trust; and section (1) in relation to the entity may (iv) any other matter the Commis- object against it in the manner set out in sioner thinks relevant; Part IVC of the Taxation Administration the Commissioner may determine Act 1953. that the interest is to be taken to be (3) The amount the controller is liable to vested and indefeasible. pay under subsection (1): Effect of determination (a) is the amount specified under sub- (15) A determination made under subsec- paragraph (1)(e)(ii); and tion (14) has effect according to its (b) becomes due and payable at the end terms. of the period of 14 days that starts on 160ARDAD Controller liable to pay the day on which the notice referred amount in respect of refund in some cases to in paragraph (1)(e) is given. (1) A controller of an exempt institution is (4) The amount the controller is liable to liable to pay an amount in respect of a pay under subsection (1) must not ex- refund paid to the institution under Di- ceed the amount or value of the benefit vision 67 of the Income Tax Assessment that the controller or associate obtained Act 1997 if: from the related transaction or ar- rangement. (a) the institution claimed the refund on the basis of an entitlement to a rebate (5) The total of: under Division 6, 6A or 7 of this (a) the amounts that the Commissioner Part; and recovers in relation to the refund (b) the institution was not entitled to the from controllers under subsec- rebate because of the operation of tion (1); and section 160ARDAC in relation to a (b) the amounts the Commissioner re- related transaction or arrangement; covers in relation to the refund from and the exempt institution; (c) the controller or an associate of the must not exceed the amount of the re- controller benefited from the related fund. transaction or arrangement; and 160ARDAE Treatment of benefits pro- (d) some or all of the amount that the vided by an exempt institution to a con- institution is liable to pay in respect troller of the refund remains unpaid after (1) A benefit given by an exempt institution the day on which the amount be- to a controller of the institution, or an comes due and payable; and associate of a controller of the institu- tion, is dealt with under this section if: 14592 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

(a) the controller or associate: Business Tax System (Venture Capital Deficit (i) pays a dividend to the institution; Tax) Bill 1999 agreed to without amendment. or New Business Tax System (Miscellane- (ii) is trustee of the trust in relation to ous) Bill 1999 reported with amendments and which a notional trust amount of New Business Tax System (Venture Capital the institution arises; and Deficit Tax) Bill reported without amend- (b) the benefit is, or was, given to the ment; report adopted. controller or associate at any time Third Reading during the period that starts 3 years before, and ends 3 years after, the Bills (on motion by Senator Kemp) read a dividend is paid or the notional trust third time. amount arises. HEALTH LEGISLATION AMENDMENT (2) The controller or associate is taken, for (GAP COVER SCHEMES) BILL 2000 the purposes of subsection 160ARDAC(5), to have obtained the Second Reading benefit because of a related transaction Debate resumed from 12 April, on motion in relation to the dividend or notional by Senator Ian Campbell: trust amount. That this bill be now read a second time. (3) The controller or associate is taken, for Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Aus- the purposes of section 160ARDAD, to have benefited from a related transac- tralia) (8.34 p.m.)—This bill amends the Na- tion or arrangement that caused sec- tional Health Act 1953 to expand the types of tion 160ARDAC to apply to the divi- gap-free policies that health funds can offer dend or notional trust amount at least to by allowing a new category of ministerial the extent of the benefit given to the ministerially approved gap cover schemes controller or associate by the exempt which are not subject to contracts but which institution. must comply with a variety of conditions. (4) Subsection (2) or (3) does not apply to a This bill has been actively sought by the benefit if the Commissioner is satisfied, Australian Medical Association as their pre- having regard to all the circumstances, ferred option for expanding the availability of that it would be unreasonable to apply gap cover health insurance policies. In return, that subsection. the AMA has strongly endorsed the extension 160ARDAF Present entitlement of ex- of informed financial consent so that parties empt institution disregarded in certain are told in advance of any costs of treatment circumstances in excess of the schedule fee. The present entitlement of an exempt The impetuses for gap-free health insur- institution to a share of trust income is disregarded for the purposes of Divi- ance were the amendments introduced by the sion 6 of Part III if: former health minister Carmen Lawrence and the motion moved last year by Senator Har- (a) the institution claims a refund under Division 67 of the Income Tax As- radine during debate of the private health sessment Act 1997 on the basis of a insurance rebate legislation. All health funds rebate under Division 6, 6A or 7 of are required to offer at least one no gap or this Part in relation to a notional trust known gap scheme by 1 July 2000 if they are amount that related to that share of to retain eligibility for the 30 per cent rebate trust income; and direct payment option. The major funds have (b) the institution was not entitled to the already developed no gap products under the rebate because of the operation of Lawrence amendments to meet this require- section 160ARDAC in relation to a ment. These products have had reasonable related transaction or arrangement. success in the market and are attracting a Amendments agreed to. growing number of doctors. However, the New Business Tax System (Miscellane- AMA has the perception that existing ar- ous) Bill 1999, as amended, agreed to; New rangements infringe on the doctor-patient Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14593 relationship and has opposed expansion of are charged gap fees. However, the evidence the existing gap cover schemes. suggests that the average is between $120 The opposition has consistently expressed and $200 per private patient and that some its view that gap charges remain a major patients pay gap charges ranging up to thou- disincentive to people taking out private sands of dollars. health insurance. Gap charges are an unac- This bill takes the form of general ena- ceptable burden to many people coming on bling legislation, with the specifics of the top of their health insurance premiums and scheme contained in the regulations. It is not negate the benefit of having insurance in the possible to get a clear idea of what the intent first place. The opposition supports measures of the legislation is from just reading the bill. that will widen the availability of gap-free The department emphasised the degree of policies, provided this does not come at the discretion being left to the funds and said that expense of sparking a new round of medical it would not produce any guidelines on the fee inflation. The opposition’s concerns about form of the gaps cover schemes and would this bill are that the new schemes may allow only discuss the schemes if approached by a rise in medical fees which will flow the funds. This is an unsatisfactory situation through to higher health insurance premiums; because the nature of the issue requires the the increased payments to doctors by the legislation to be more specific about how gap funds will not be offset by reductions in the cover schemes are intended to work. There is gap payments paid by consumers, resulting in also concern that the department has advised a higher overall cost to patients; the proposed the legislation gives no certainty that a person form of informed financial consent may not who purchases a no gaps policy will in fact be effective in ensuring all patients are aware escape a gap charge if they are treated by a in advance of any gap charges the doctor doctor who is a member of that scheme. The proposes to make; and the proposals may best that the legislation can offer is appar- inhibit the no gap schemes already in exis- ently an increased likelihood that they will tence. The most important concern we have not be charged a gap. There is a need for the is that the new schemes do not allow a new bill to broadly describe the objectives of gap round of inflation in doctors’ fees, which cover schemes and contain the key elements pushes up both the gap paid by patients and of the process for approval and revocation of the health insurance premiums. a scheme. If this were not the case, the pow- The Senate Community Affairs Legisla- ers given to the minister could be used very tion Committee held an inquiry into this bill. broadly indeed to authorise schemes which Some useful submissions were received and a lie well beyond the scope of what the doctors half-day hearing was held on Monday, 8 advocating these amendments would have May. The committee’s terms of reference had in mind. were directed to some pretty specific ques- There was a common recognition, even tions. As a result, some important issues were among the scheme proponents, that success clarified and debated by the major players. of gap cover schemes depends on them not Everyone is in favour of wider availability of resulting in doctors simply increasing their gap-free cover, but there are important differ- fees. The AMA recognised that there was an ences between the funds, doctors, hospitals onus on doctors to make the scheme work in and consumers about how this can be a non-inflationary way. Dr Brand summa- achieved. There are also still some wide gaps rised his views as follows: in the agreed facts. The department estimates If all it does is inflate fees and instead of putting that privately insured patients paid around money in patients pockets it puts money in doc- $215 million in gap charges for in-hospital tor’s pockets then the Minister, I am sure, will medical services in the calendar year 1999. exercise the right that the Minister has to with- The AMA uses a higher figure of $249 mil- draw the schemes and put them back on the basis lion for all gap charges in 1997-98. The aver- of a Lawrence style contract. age amount paid is difficult to calculate, be- Unfortunately, past experience suggests there cause of uncertainty about how many patients is a serious risk of fee inflation and the meas- 14594 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 ures proposed do not sufficiently come to crease in the cost of health insurance and a grips with inflation. It is important to distin- flow-on cost to the government through the guish the two kinds of inflation that contrib- 30 per cent rebate. A six per cent increase in ute to the total cost for patients. Firstly, there hospital benefits by the funds would add are increases in total medical fees due to around $200 million to the expenditure by doctors increasing their charges in response the funds and $60 million to the govern- to the higher rebates received. Secondly, ment’s own costs. The major funds have in- there are the flow-on costs of increased re- dicated in their submissions that they have so bates being recovered by increases in health far been able to extend their no gap contracts insurance premiums. Both of these problems without any impact on their premiums. The need to be solved. It would be easy for doc- 2000-01 budget proposes a new pooling ar- tors to rationalise that, because they were rangement to share the increased costs of gap now obtaining higher rebates from health schemes amongst funds through the reinsur- insurers, significantly above the scheduled ance arrangements. The opposition continues fee, they could still extract as a known gap a to be very concerned that the government substantial direct contribution from their pa- will not come to grips with the reinsurance tient. Some have even tried to argue that both pool issue. When we debated earlier legisla- the doctor and the patient could be better off. tion on Lifetime Health Cover I moved an This is a nonsense. The health system, the amendment to require the minister to com- contributors to health funds and other doctors plete this process by the end of this month. would all be worse off if such action was At the time, the minister said this amendment condoned. Any rapid escalation of medical was unnecessary and that the changes would fees would be a serious threat to the accessi- occur, but I now understand that the process bility and affordability of health services. has stalled and there will be no changes in the No satisfactory answer was given to the short term to reinsurance arrangements apart problem of gap fees increasing after the gov- from this particular stopgap change. I would ernment introduced a special new Medicare again urge the minister to get serious about item number for complex births in 1998 looking at the reinsurance pool arrangements which was specifically meant to reduce gap that are holding back the efficiency of the fees. The reality is that patients are in a very sector. poor position to bargain about charges when A major concern of the opposition is the they are discussing surgery and there need to need to place a particular cap on the rate of be some constraints to ensure that doctors’ increase in insurance premiums to discourage fees are not open ended. If the gap cover funds from engaging in behaviour which schemes established under this bill are pre- might drive up costs. The rate of increase in dominantly used to offer known gap products premiums is easier to measure, because of an where the total medical fees are significantly opposition amendment in 1999, and is now increased, then they will fail both the short- transparent. The department of health is re- term and long-term objectives. The minister quired to publish quarterly figures on move- should be required to ensure that the pro- ments and premiums. The committee heard posed scheme will not have an inflationary evidence that a member of the minister’s staff impact on fees or total medical costs before had urged the health funds to defer increases deciding on the approval of the scheme. The prior to next year’s election for political current wording is very vague on this point rather than commercial reasons. This is of and there is a need for a specific provision in considerable concern because if this were relation to inflation in the legislation. done the funds would be acting without re- The department advised that if all existing gard to their fiduciary responsibilities and the gaps were covered by health funds, the esti- funds would be storing up a large post- mated premium increase would be 6.2 per election unpleasant surprise for their mem- cent. It is important, therefore, that the bers. There is a need for this bill to set out in schemes not simply transfer existing charges further detail how the inflationary impact is onto the bill or there will be a sizeable in- to be assessed and the extent of inflation that would trigger ministerial intervention. The Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14595 benchmark is also required to determine the doctors under gap cover schemes. The AMA standard that the scheme must meet in order states that it strongly advises its members to to gain approval. Direct comparison to the provide informed financial consent, and other CPI is not necessarily the most appropriate professionals support this view. The AMA measure. Other possibilities might be the also expressed its strong support for informed ABS index for hospital costs, which is gener- financial consent applying to all patients and ally in excess of the CPI, an index of salary not just those in gap free schemes. movements for other professional groups or a The Consumer Health Forum saw a need figure based on the cost index used for fund- to specify the nature of the advice provided ing the public health system. The AMA pro- by doctors including: that the advice to be poses that the benchmark should be that the provided in writing; that the principlal prac- gap cover scheme should be no more infla- titioner inform the consumer of the fees of tionary than products under the MPPAs and other practitioners involved in the treatment; the PAs. The Health Insurance Association and that an explanation of the circumstances suggested the measure should be the five- under which the fees might be varied be pro- year average for that fund. vided. The Private Health Insurance Om- The opposition’s view is that the index and budsman provided considerable detail on his the method of measurement should be clearly work to define informed financial consent spelt out so that there is a level playing field and a draft set of forms on which consulta- between the funds and no potential for pre- tion was proceeding for the preferred form of miums to increase excessively. The details of notification of patients of the estimate of this can be left to the government to set by fees. These highlighted the need for informa- regulation, but it is unacceptable to the oppo- tion held by the health funds to be confirmed sition for this bill to lack any definition of to ensure the advice from the doctor was cor- what an inflationary impact will be. Some rect for the type of cover that the patient had. funds have already reported pressure for in- The MBF stressed the importance of gap creases in their fund rebate schedules to schemes encouraging the participation of all match the most generous of their competi- doctors involved in an episode of care. tors’. In other words, the competition to at- The opposition believes that the obligation tract doctors to sign up for schemes is prov- to provide informed financial consent should ing inflationary, as they will sign up for the be entrenched in the legislation in the form of best available rates and then demand other a requirement for medical service providers funds to match these. The bill needs to be to give an estimate of fees where these will amended to tighten up these aspects, or the exceed the MBS schedule fee. The best way objective of reducing costs will be swept of moving towards better practice nationally aside by an inflationary surge in fees. is through guidelines and the education of The second major issue—and it is one at practitioners. The AMA endorsed an ap- the cornerstone of the new arrangements for proach of progressively increasing the pro- known gap schemes—is this question of in- portion of doctors providing estimates of formed financial consent. In simple terms, fees. In order to maximise participation pro- this means that whenever practical patients viders should be given the option of provid- should be informed in advance of the gap fee ing the estimate of fees on behalf of other that they will incur either in dollar terms or as providers they know will be involved, or of a percentage of the total fee. There is no each provider separately providing informed definition of informed financial consent in financial consent to the patient. The long- the legislation and no obligation for doctors term goal should be simplified fee estimates to provide patients with a proper statement of to match simplified billing. their expected bill. However, the doctors’ In conclusion, the opposition is broadly representatives argue that they are firm be- supportive of no gap coverage and we will be lievers in informed financial consent and supporting this bill in order to encourage the agree that the logic is that it should apply to wider take-up of this form of cover. There are all patients and not just those dealing with the a number of problems that I have canvassed 14596 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 which must be addressed when we come to Any one with the most basic understanding of the committee stage, in particular the need to costs will realise increased costs do not disappear, ensure the schemes are not inflationary and they are merely shifted and if this bill results in the need to entrench informed financial con- the inflation of some health professional fees the sent. The onus will be on doctors to make the most likely result will be premium rises. scheme work and to build on the market Or in the worst case scenario, a refusal by funds to penetration already achieved by the medical pay the entire gap due to unrealistic fees, thus purchaser provider agreements introduced by resulting in a return to the past, out of pocket ex- penses. Labor. If doctors abuse the new arrangements then they will not last long because no gov- This issue could be especially pertinent in my ernment will be able to sit back and allow state Tasmania where due to the small number of some specialists and in some parts of the state open-ended claims to be made. The health GPS, an opportunity for inflated fees is very real. insurance sector will also need to work hard As the normal competitive factors that can lead to to ensure these schemes work because unless price control in major cities, are obviously not the public are offered genuine no gaps cover- relevant when only one specialist exists and in age they will become very disillusioned with some specialities, the specialist flies in from Mel- what they are offered by private health insur- bourne. ance. I look forward to discussing the bill in We feel that there should be a clearly directive more detail during the committee stage. statement that ensures that there are no inflation- Senator DENMAN (Tasmania) (8.49 ary outcomes as a result of the legislation. Thus p.m.)—I seek leave to incorporate my re- we have suggested that the minister be given the discretionary powers to ensure among other things marks and I have shown them to the govern- that: ment and to Senator Lees. 1. There is no possibility that the scheme will lead Leave granted. to increasing premium costs above the normal The speech read as follows— inflationary pressures in the general health sector. I will preface these remarks by firstly congratu- 2. That there will be a reduction in the average lating the minister for attempting to fix the vexing known gaps charged by the participants and no problem of gap payments and informed financial increase of total costs to fund members. consent. Additionally we recommend that an annual review No one who have been following the issue of Pri- mechanism include a prescribed format of report- vate Health Cover in Australia would do anything ing by organisations that have gap free schemes. If else but applaud attempts to remedy an obstacle the scheme fails to meet well defined performance that has existed for some time regarding people criteria rather, than we had better rush through taking out private health insurance. something. The normal response of the Howard government we are suggesting some forward Our views on the remedy to the Public Private planning that does not come from the 1950’s fu- Health mix are on the record and this is not the ture that the Howard government calls vision. time to revisit the macro issues that debate. To avoid the problem that was indicative in the While we agree with the general intent of the leg- nursing home fiasco, that meant, those inept or islation here are some concerns I wish to raise. fraudulent providers were in some ways free from Many health professionals still have some altru- prosecution, some pre-emptive actions are sug- ism left in the world created by the Howard gov- gested. ernment, that ranks compassion with weakness Essentially this would translate into a well set out and for those still left, I applaud you. policy of action should any scheme not measure However history has shown us there are also those up to the performance indicators. that believe they have a right to charge what they This has obvious advantages for the industry, the desire. One of the concerns raised in the submis- government and most importantly the patient. The sions received was that if full gap cover was of- industry would know in advance what is expected fered some health professionals would lift fees of it, the department would have a well-defined even more. action plan and the consumer would be protected This action, if it were to occur, is based on the from unscrupulous operators. naive assumption that if the patient is fully cov- Another important matter explored in the inquiry ered, then it will not cost them anything, it will was the issue of informed financial consent. In cost the private health funds. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14597 most other areas of service the client is given a ricultural Health and Safety. The work I am com- quote that, within reason, is expected to be the menting on concerns the dangers faced by those final bill. that put food on the tables of the nation. This Thus the intent of this inquiry was to endeavour to work shows that farming is the most dangerous find a reasonable format for implementing the occupation, more dangerous than mining. So dan- same method of arriving at charges for the health gerous in fact that farming averages a death every industry. three days. On the surface this may seem like a simple matter, James Houlahan the deputy director of the Centre it is certainly an important one. However in many for Agricultural Health and Safety also states that operations, unforseen circumstances arise and it is “somewhere between two hundred and six hun- often the case that surgeons are not sure what they dred injuries per one thousand farms require at- will find until the operation reaches a certain tention at rural hospitals each year” (source ABC stage. If the operation has unforseen complica- rural News) This figure does not include injuries tions this affects not only the surgeon’s fee but not attended to as farmers are renowned for leav- also the theatre charges the anaesthetists charges ing physical pain to the last moment. and so the list goes on. One would be excused for thinking that due to Thus in some instances it would be unreasonable need, rural and regional health centres should be to hold to the original quote. well resourced and there should be a GP on every corner. This is unfortunately not the story. This however should not preclude the expectation that the patient or the patient’s representative An article in the Australian Journal of Rural should be provided with a reasonable estimate of Health titled rather aptly the “Inequitable Distri- what the episode of care should cost. This should, bution of General Practitioners in Australia”, when ever viable, be given to the patient well in shows that there is not an abundance of rural GPs advance of the service being delivered. in the Mersey-Lyell region, my home region. As the article clearly shows, in the region of my con- A common complaint involves the number of bills stituents there is a full time doctor for every thir- the patient may receive after an episode of care. It teen hundred people. However the ACT has a full is not uncommon for patients to be receiving bills time doctor for every eight hundred and seventy from many quarters and sometimes over many people. This compared with a state average in months. Tasmania of one full time GP for every nine hun- Accounts have been given to me of individuals dred and forty one. receiving a bill from the hospital they pay it, then Not surprisingly ACT has the greatest ratio of GPs a few days or weeks later a bill from the surgeon, per person as a state average (after all they have they pay it, then a few days or weeks later the people here to blow leaves off the footpath), but anaesthetist bill arrives and so on it goes. As any even within the Tasmanian context the city coun- one can understand some one recovering from an try divide is apparent with Hobart having one full operation does not need the continual financial up time GP for close to every eight hundred people and down indicative in this way of billing. compared to the previously mentioned figure for Thus we suggest when more than one health pro- the area I live, one GP for every thirteen hundred vider is involved in an episode of care, where people. practical that agreement should be reached be- Again the minister should be acknowledged for tween the providers enabling one nominated pro- attempting to address the problem even if some of vider to be responsible for billing for the whole of the policies most likely started on our side of the service. This would simplify the process for politics, the bonded scholarships for example. not only the patient but the provider as well. Unfortunately just painting the outside of a With the Senates indulgence I would like to make building that needs a complete overall has a lim- some brief comments on the recently announced ited chance of securing the viability of that build- rural health package. ing in the long term. Due to the high quality of the volcanic soil found And that is what we have in the rural health pack- where I live, farming is one of the main industries age. When will the Howard government learn that in the North West. If my memory serves me, we with out the infrastructure to support the GPs and are the biggest exporter of onions, potatoes and the families that move with them, they will not recently other crops such as poppies and pyre- stay. thrum. Without a vibrant public hospital where can they Thus it was with more than a passing interest I refer to, without vibrant schools, where do they noticed the work of the Australian Centre for Ag- send their kids, without decent child care how can 14598 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 their partners find work, without a vibrant social consumers and particularly a large sum of and cultural life the chances of the families of GPs money once consumers have already paid enjoying or even participating in the community their premiums. are slim. With successive governments we have ar- None of the issues mentioned above have even gued for no known gaps. We have a legal been acknowledged let alone dealt with in this budget. Thus I suspect that after their bonded time action in South Australia that has found that is over most will return to the cities many of them patients do have the right to know when they came from feeling burnt out, bored and com- are going to be charged an additional amount pletely unfulfilled. of money. This piece of legislation is another This is one time I hope I am wrong, but I suggest step down the road to limiting the out-of- unless National Well Being becomes as important pocket expenses for those Australians who as the National Gross Domestic Product for all the choose to have private health insurance. We window dressing, nothing will really change in are aware of a range of schemes already not only rural Australia, but also the whole of our available which seek to minimise or elimi- nation. nate the gap for consumers. In particular in My colleague, the member for Braddon today my home state of South Australia, Mutual issued a press release on the lack of health fund- Community has had some considerable suc- ing in the Circular Head area. It reads: cesses with their particular gap cover Lack of rural health funding schemes. I congratulate them on their Rural health funding in the Federal Budget does achievements. I understand that they still not go far enough, according to Braddon MHR have some way to go but they have certainly Sid Sidebottom. Mr Sidebottom said communities made some very positive steps. in areas such as Circular Head were missing out. There is a difficulty for many doctors en- He said he was concerned that the failure to attract tering into any agreement that requires a doctors and nurses to Circular Head may mean the loss of services such as obstetrics, and lead to a contract. This legislation moves away from downgrading of the Smithton Hospital. He said he requiring contracts and it allows for agree- supported recent calls by the Circular Head Coun- ments that do not actually require a signature cil for the Federal Government to provide greater on the bottom line. Medical practitioners, as financial assistance. represented by the AMA, have expressed Senator LEES (South Australia—Leader support for this legislation. I also note that of the Australian Democrats) (8.50 p.m.)— this legislation has support from the private The Democrats support the general purpose health insurance industry and consumer and thrust of this bill. Indeed, we have argued groups. for years under successive governments that There were issues raised before and by the the issue of the gap was one of the key issues Senate Community Affairs Committee during for those Australians who have private health the inquiry into this bill. I think these issues insurance or, indeed, would like to have pri- need to be addressed. We have picked up a vate health insurance. Out-of-pocket ex- couple of them. I note the Labor Party have penses, particularly those that the patient had picked up others. The first amendment that no warning of, are a great deterrent to people the Democrats will be moving addresses a keeping private health insurance and, once concern raised during the inquiry that there is the word spreads that people are required to a potential for gap cover schemes to be infla- pay the gap—perhaps to doctors, perhaps to tionary. I think it is critical. It is going to cost hospitals—for a range of different proce- the government a considerable amount under dures, then soon it becomes a general deter- its present 30 per cent rebate scheme and, if rent for all. In some cases I think the rumours premiums simply keep going up at basically have spread to the point where, indeed, it is the same amount as gap payments go down, not as big an issue as some people may be- we will have got nowhere. Consumers will lieve but it certainly is a major deterrent. It not have benefited and the public purse will seems that the cost of the gap to health fund be by far worse off. The Democrat amend- members is somewhere around $200 million ment will require health funds to provide to a year. That is a very large sum of money for the minister for health enough information Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14599 about their proposed schemes to satisfy him requires a review of the act as soon as practi- or her that the scheme will not have an infla- cable after 1 July 2002. I think this is a very tionary aspect. useful exercise when we are looking at a pro- The second Democrat amendment deals cess such as this. with the need for consumers to be fully in- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT formed about the details of the schemes. It (Senator Lightfoot)—We have no informa- requires that a person providing hospital tion that we will not get to the committee treatment under this legislation must disclose stage tonight. to their patient any financial interest that he Senator LEES—I think we will be facing or she has in any products or services that some difficulties if we do, Mr Acting Deputy they recommend the patient be provided President, because we have different drafts of with. This issue was raised by the ACCC in the opposition amendments. I understand that their report on anti-competitive behaviour some are still under discussion and negotia- among health funds and health care provid- tion with the government. Perhaps at the end ers. They drew some comparisons between of the second reading stage, the parliamen- the issues raised by the Australian Broad- tary secretary would be able to advise the casting Authority in their recent commercial Senate as to the status of the specific radio inquiry. We want consumers to be con- amendments. We understand that, for exam- fident that their doctors are providing the best ple, the constitutionality of one of the advice, which is unbiased by any commercial amendments is under some further discus- consideration. Obviously, the vast majority of sion. So we wait for the outcome of these doctors are very responsible and always have discussions, but we do concur with the con- their patients’ best interest at heart, but we cerns raised by the opposition in relation to believe that the consumers have the right to this piece of legislation. know when their doctors stand to gain finan- cially from a specific course of action that One final point is that, yet again, we have that doctor is recommending. So they must this government concentrating on private be required to reveal to patients any relevant health insurance. We really look forward to financial interest when recommending further some other legislation dealing more broadly treatment. with the health system, with the public health system, with a whole raft of different stream- We understand that disclosure of financial lining and proposals specifically dealing with interests raises much broader issues than just some of the shortcomings. It is a matter of direct financial interest that a treating doctor not just putting more money into our public may have. With the increased corporatisation hospitals and public health services but also of medical practices, there are a number of giving some attention as far as legislation is potential conflicts of interests, and over time concerned. we are going to need to address these in some detail. These issues certainly go a lot broader Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) than those dealt with by this bill relating to (8.58 p.m.)—I rise to make some comments gap cover schemes. We will be seeking to in regard to the Health Legislation Amend- move further amendments to general health ment (Gap Cover Schemes) Bill 2000. I legislation as it comes before us. I am pleased would pick up from the concluding remarks to see that the opposition are quite supportive of the Leader of the Democrats, Senator of what we are proposing. I also acknowl- Lees, when she indicated that she would wel- edge the concerns that the opposition raised come some legislation coming forth from the during the Senate inquiry. We note that the government on other areas dealing with opposition have put forward some draft health. Whilst I will come back to that at a amendments. I understand that we are not later stage in my contribution, I would reiter- getting to the committee stage tonight, Mr ate that call. Whilst this legislation goes to Acting Deputy President. When we do get to the very important issue of covering gap the committee stage, we will be looking, in payments, the government is found wanting particular, at the opposition’s amendment that when it comes to the big issues in health— and nothing could have been clearer than that 14600 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 d nothing could have been clearer than that in health fund. People have continuously and its recent budget. increasingly found that private health insur- The government has made a lot of noise ance has not been delivering. about its supposed initiatives for rural and Whether you look at the area of medical regional health in the budget, but when you coverage or at other areas, such as ancillaries, examine the detail you find a scheme which you will find, increasingly, that the value is is long overdue, picks up an idea the Labor not commensurate with the cost of the insur- Party advanced some time ago and, most im- ance, let alone the cost of the gap. Anyone portantly, only goes to a narrow area of the who has private health insurance coverage health debate. Interestingly enough, the ini- today—and, under the current legislation, tiative in the budget is directed at increasing you effectively have to have it if your income the number of medical students who will ul- is over a certain level, or you have to pay the timately be working in rural and regional extra levy—will find that in areas such as areas. dentistry the difference between the amount There are some major issues that impact charged and the refund received from the upon health in this country. Unfortunately, health fund is astronomical. this government has ignored them and in The whole point of this is that we have a some cases has made the situation worse. The problem with private health insurance, and situation in our public hospitals is critical that is that it is simply not value for money. because of the policies of this government, People have increasingly been prepared to which have focused almost exclusively on take the risk and rely on the public hospital the private hospital system to the exclusion system. What has this government done to of the public health system, which is man- address this issue? Firstly, it decided that it aged largely by the states. Since it has been would take funds out of the public hospital in office, this government has ripped well system, which is its primary responsibility, over $1.5 billion out of the public hospital and transfer them as a subsidy to the private system. On the other side of the ledger, the health insurance industry in an endeavour to government has introduced a scheme which lift their membership. Secondly, it has provides a 30 per cent rebate for persons opened up a situation where people can take taking out private health insurance in an en- out the cheapest private health insurance deavour to lift the level of private health in- coverage available, thereby qualifying for the surance. rebate and avoiding the levy. They then con- I have put this on the record before and I tinue to rely on the public hospital system. will say it again: I happen to have private Thirdly, the government now proposes—as health insurance. I have had it since I was old requested by the AMA—an ability for funds enough to pay for it myself and no longer had to provide known gap cover schemes. On the to rely on the insurance provided by my par- surface, that looks okay. If it reduces the ents. I come from a tradition where I was in level of the gap or—as I think is more private health insurance, and I have kept it likely—provides an incentive for doctors to up. But many people in Australia have found advise their patients up-front what their fees that private health insurance has become in- are, that could be said to be a good thing. creasingly expensive and has failed to deliver However, when you examine it closely you the coverage that they require. Everybody find that this proposal moves the balance, can relay their own stories, as well as exam- again, further towards the medical profession ples from their constituents, about people and their interests and away from the inter- with private health insurance still having to ests of patients. meet costs of thousands of dollars when they When we were in government prior to have a procedure in a hospital. We all know 1996, honourable senators will recall that, that the cost has always been the difference under the then minister for health, Dr Carmen between the amount charged by the doctor or Lawrence, we sought to introduce a system the surgeon and the rebate provided by a whereby cover could be provided on a no-gap combination of Medicare and the private basis where there was an arrangement be- Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14601 tween the health fund and the medical practi- able amount of respect for the AMA. I be- tioner. The basis of that was that doctors lieve that, by and large, on many issues not would enter into arrangements with medical only are they forthright advocates of their funds, and hospitals would enter into similar own particular interests but also they do, on arrangements. Patients could then go in for many occasions, argue in support of matters procedures, knowing that all of their costs of public policy. That is clear on issues like would be identified up-front and would be Aboriginal health and the impact of tobacco covered by their policy. What was the reac- advertising, and I think it is certainly true in tion of the industry? The doctors would not respect of their concerns to improve the de- have a bar of it. They said, ‘Hang on, this is livery of health services in rural and regional in conflict with the privacy of the doctor- Australia. I and many other members of par- patient relationship.’ I recall there were a liament have taken the opportunity on a number of hospitals that were not all that number of occasions to attend AMA break- keen on the scheme, although in large meas- fasts or briefings, when they have been held ure hospitals were prepared to enter into in this parliament, to hear from the former these arrangements with health funds but the leader of the AMA, Dr Brand, and other doctors were not. So an incentive to deal with spokespersons on their views on health mat- the gap problem was rejected by the medical ters. We welcome that. profession. I still find it rather ironic that legislation is It is in that light that you should consider being put forward by the government which this legislation. Whilst it is intended to in- has been pretty much developed as an idea by crease the appeal of private health insurance the doctors’ trade union, the Australian and to improve the product by allowing gap Medical Association, which is pretty well a cover schemes to be approved, in effect we closed shop. I do not think membership is are talking about known gap schemes—not compulsory, but it is not far from it. I do not no-gap schemes. That means that there will have any problem with the AMA seeking to still be a gap. The only obligation on the represent the views of the medical profession doctor is to identify up-front the amount of in this country, along with the other relevant that gap so that, when the patient has to un- groups, but it is interesting to note that on dergo some procedure in a hospital, there will this issue this government is quite prepared be an identified amount that Medicare covers to adopt the views of the trade union for the and there will be a known gap that the patient doctors whereas on every occasion that you will be up for. The opposition have already hear a government minister, particularly Mr indicated—and Senator Evans covered this— Reith, speak about the interests of particular that we are concerned that these proposals groups of workers, trade unions are anath- could trigger a new round of increases in the ema—they are to be avoided at all costs. fees charged by doctors. It could have an in- I make that point because every day now flationary effect; indeed, it could also lead to we seem to be hearing from Mr Reith about health premiums increasing. It has not been the evils of collective representation and of made clear how this legislation will prevent bargaining for the collective interest. That is doctors from charging large gap fees. It will what this scheme is really about: it is being still be possible, provided that they disclose put forward for the collective interests of those fees in advance. If increases in doctors’ doctors in this country to protect their in- fees do come about, insurance premiums and comes—probably even to enhance their in- gap fees could continue to increase, leading comes ultimately. If you read the second to further pressure on an already overbur- reading speech, the government talks about dened public health system. We have some sitting down with the association to address major concerns with this proposal. further issues of concern with respect to the I am also intrigued that the basis behind whole question of gap insurance. So let us this proposed scheme is to give effect to what not have any more of this two-faced hypo- essentially has been argued for by the Aus- critical approach from this government when tralian Medical Association. I have a reason- 14602 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 it comes to representing the views of sec- Senator Quirke—That was a known gaps tional interests in this country. policy, wasn’t it? I will conclude by drawing attention to the Senator CROWLEY—We got together to marked difference between the approach cover the gap very well, thank you very adopted by this government and that adopted much, Senator Quirke. If you read the report by the New South Wales government re- from the Senate Community Affairs Legisla- cently in respect of health. The New South tion Committee on the Health Legislation Wales government, in March this year and Amendment (Gap Cover Schemes) Bill 2000, again in the budget, announced that they you will see on page 1 of the report: would be injecting in excess of $2 billion into Data for 1997-98 shows that the cost of medical the New South Wales health system—a sub- gaps for in-hospital medical services provided to stantial real increase. The package gives people with private health insurance was around health professionals more certainty, greater $200 million. The average medical gap for an funding and an opportunity to be involved in episode for a private patient in a private hospital the planning and implementation processes. was $151 and for a private patient in a public hos- The New South Wales government—with pital was $69, though for some procedures the gap very little, if any, support from the federal payment can be much higher. government—are addressing the real needs of Indeed, in other parts of this report the gap is providing extra funding and services reported to be in some cases up to $1,000— throughout New South Wales, particularly in and we know that is the case. I have said it rural and regional areas. They are the real many times in this place, and we know how issues that this government should be focus- often we get letters from people who say ing its mind on, and that is what this minister things like: ‘I’ve had private health insurance for health should be focusing his attention on. for 30 years. I always thought it was the right But it seems that, unfortunately, we have a and proper thing to do. For the first time in minister for health who is more interested in my life I’ve used that private health insurance doing the bidding all of the time of the medi- and now I have a bill for $3,000. Senator, I’m cal profession, whether it be in respect of a pensioner and I can’t pay. What will I do?’ addressing the issue of gap payments—an I had hoped that over the years we might important issue, no doubt, but not the most have gotten rid of gaps. But here we are leg- critical issue—or indeed in addressing islating to cover the gaps, we think, by al- something like the provision of MRI ma- lowing doctors to charge an amount above chines. the scheduled fee with no guarantee, of With those remarks, I look forward with course, that that is where they will stop. No interest to the response from the federal gov- gap or known gap: ‘Good afternoon, Mrs ernment, particularly in the committee stage, Jones. You’re in terrible trouble. I appreciate to the important issues that have been raised you are going to need an operation, and I am by Senator Evans and Senator Lees to ensure pleased that you’ve come to see me on refer- that this legislation delivers real improve- ral from your general practitioner. I can tell ments to the patients who have to pay the gap you that if you do have that operation with rather than simply being a mechanism for me in hospital Z the gap will be $1,000. Are increasing the fees of doctors and inflating you in? The gap will be $150. Are you still health costs even further. in?’ What are we talking about here: that a Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) doctor will be able to say to a person with (9.17 p.m.)—I rise to speak this evening on private health insurance—insurance which is the Health Legislation Amendment (Gap supposed to protect them from big medical Cover Schemes) Bill 2000. I appreciate and bills—‘We’ll discuss the agreement. Yes, would like to second the comments of my medically you need an operation or a proce- colleague Senator Forshaw. I also appreciate dure. Yes, we are agreed that we can go him stepping into a gap that I was experi- ahead. Yes, a bed can be arranged for you in encing about 20 minutes ago. a hospital. Now what we have to do is talk about what is the no gap,’ or, in many cases, Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14603 the known gap. People who are now clearly ing procedures in public hospitals should be aware that they need medical treatment will more expensive. They have on-costs of edu- have to perhaps bargain or just cop it sweet, cation, of training doctors, of training nursing whatever the doctor says is the known gap: staff, of pathology services provided, of re- ‘I’m terribly pleased you are here. I’m very search dollars and so on. None of those costs pleased to tell you that in my case the known are borne by a private hospital and yet the gap is $200,’ or $500 or whatever. I find this cost for the procedure in a private hospital is is a remarkable achievement by the medical significantly more. practitioners of this world—extremely won- Nobody seems to be troubled by this. No- derful. What have they done to make it so body seems to ask why. I hope the patients of acceptable? They have had a minister who Australia can now start saying, ‘Why? Why has introduced $2 billion worth of rebate can you do this to me, doctor, for a gap of subsidy for those with private health insur- $50 in a public hospital and a gap of $250 in ance. The pain now will be considerably less a private hospital?’ What I think we are because, should these gaps contribute to in- writing in here is the prospect of real pressure flationary pressure on private health insur- on our public hospitals. We have not seen too ance, one-third of the tab is going to be much to this point. We do not know of any picked up by the taxpayers anyhow for eve- evidence to prove it but we do know that this rybody. is likely to make people say, ‘Very good, One of the things that the coalition gov- doctor, I will have this operation in a public ernment keep telling us is that they are good hospital where you are telling me the gap is economic managers; in health care the exam- going to be less.’ Same doctor, same proce- ple time and time again is that they are not. dure, different hospital—what is the ac- What kind of restraint on costs is it to subsi- counting of this? Why on earth do the medi- dise private health premiums by 30 per cent? cal profession say that their gap has to be so It turns out to be appalling economics. In- much bigger in a private hospital where they deed, we saw most of those prospective gains do not have on-costs that are anything like for people with private health insurance con- the same as in a public hospital? I think these sumed immediately by rises in private health are major concerns, very significant con- premiums. We have seen what happened cerns, and I am particularly troubled by the when doctors, obstetricians, were granted by evidence of what has happened with the ob- the government an increase in the Medicare stetricians: that the gap remains the same and rebate for complicated obstetrical procedures. the doctors have taken the increase. That is What happened was that the gaps stayed the not going to reduce the pressure on private same and the doctors pocketed the difference. health insurance rebates. It is going to in- The increase went straight to the obstetri- crease the outlays by the taxpayers of Aus- cians. Being of the great medical profession, tralia, who are subsidising everybody with I suppose I am better able to speak than oth- private health insurance to the tune of some ers about this matter. I am very proud of the 30 per cent. So there is not the same pressure medical profession and I would hate anybody to worry because, if the premiums do rise, to take my words to mean that all docs are one-third of the cost is being picked up by the out there making a quick buck. But we do taxpayer. know that this profession over time has es- I am astounded that the minister for health, tablished a precedent that, out of taking the who might claim to be good at health eco- money and not taking the money, many of nomics, would allow such open-ended un- them are in for taking the money. They are derwriting of uncontrolled, unrestricted, un- increasing the costs, pushing them up—and limited charges. In the end it does come back what is the benefit? Why on earth does it cost to what sort of health services we are pro- more to have the same procedure done in a viding. It does come back to who is paying. private hospital than it does to have it done in What is happening is that thousands—bil- a public hospital? The difference is stark if lions—of precious taxpayers’ dollars are go- you compare both of those as private pa- ing to subsidise rebates for private health tients. On any examination, the costs of do- 14604 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 insurance and they are not going into our marched away from private health insurance public hospitals. They are not going to pro- to Medicare, because Medicare gave them vide an alternative to this private health in- protection. Medicare gave them no gap. surance treatment process. Isn’t it interesting Medicare gave them good health services in that private health insurance was established our great public hospitals and they did not to protect people from overwhelming medical have a gap. I can hear my colleagues over bills—bills that would cripple a family, crip- there ranting and raving as they go on about ple a patient—because most people, if they all of this—‘It was the Labor government are sent a bill by their doctor, will do what plot to destroy private health insurance.’ No, they can to pay it. So private health insurance it was not. We introduced a marvellous alter- was introduced to try to protect people from native and the people made very reasonable those kinds of crippling debts. We now have choices. I find it amazing that, for having a system that does protect people. It is called made those good choices, they have been Medicare. While I hold my breath on how described as all sorts of things but in par- sincerely they mean it, even the opposition ticular they have been regarded as defec- now say Medicare is a good thing. tive—‘We must actually give them the option Senator Calvert—What? to pay lots of money for private health insur- ance premiums and then, when they get their Senator CROWLEY—Yes, they do, surgical procedures and their medical proce- Senator Calvert. dures, they will have to pay even more, Senator Calvert—The opposition is say- called the gap.’ So I think that the coalition is ing that? very two-faced about its policies in health Senator CROWLEY—Sorry—you, the care. coalition, thank you. There we are, Senator Senator Calvert—What about the waiting Calvert, I beg your pardon. I am glad you lists under your lot? actually corrected me on that. The coalition Senator CROWLEY—You know that the even now says it supports Medicare. waiting lists were a furphy then and are a Senator Jacinta Collins—Sort of. furphy now. I am pleased with that interjec- Senator CROWLEY—I have some tion from Senator Calvert, because Minister quotes where Prime Minister Howard is actu- Blewett, way back then, found $40 million to ally on the record as saying it, which is an provide to private hospitals, together with the extremely significant change from what he states, to get the doctors to reduce the waiting was saying not too long ago at all. But, if he lists. In my own state of South Australia— now believes in Medicare, that is extremely Senator Calvert interjecting— good. I am very pleased that he believes in Senator CROWLEY—I am too busy Medicare and I think it is one of those times talking to listen to your rabbiting on, Senator. when we will remind him, again and again But if you give me a minute, I will finish my and then again and again—ad nauseam—that comments and then you might want to say he actually said on record that Medicare is a something sensible. The private hospitals in good thing and it should be protected. South Australia were delighted to have the Senator Jacinta Collins—I just hope that opportunity to contribute to reducing waiting it was not a core belief. lists, but the doctors refused to participate. Senator CROWLEY—One has a fear And that, I have to say, is extremely de- that it is not a core belief. One of the things pressing. In the Illawarra region, New South that is so good about Medicare is that people Wales, the doctors quite differently agreed to do not have a gap. They do not have to worry cooperate, and they reduced the eye waiting about other costs; there is no gap. Many list for pensioners by operating in the private speakers from the coalition have stood up in hospitals under this arrangement. There are this place and told us how important it was to some other very good examples of where it increase private health insurance so as to as- happened. The coalition does not want to sist people to get off waiting lists and so on. know about that, but it did happen. Under a The more they said it the more the people Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14605

Labor government, we reduced the waiting seem not to understand this metaphor. They lists. look to me as though they were probably in Senator Calvert should know that there is primary school when these things were no evidence that the increase in private health commonly said, but if they do not understand insurance numbers reduces any pressure on it I can refer them to Mother Goose’s nursery public hospitals. There is none—no evidence rhymes or some other similar kind of reading at all. What we do have is anecdotal evidence which should give them an understanding of that people with private health insurance are it. People have been thrashed into private not declaring it but are going to a public hos- health insurance, ‘sticked’ into it, for those pital where they know they will have no gap. over there who are not understanding. And The reason that this legislation is in here is what they are going to find, if they are lucky, that it has finally dawned on the coalition— is a known gap. We do not have, even still, a they have finally accepted what has been said guarantee that that known gap will be prop- for years—that the gap has been a major erly and comprehensively explained to peo- contributor to consumer perceptions about ple before their medical or surgical proce- private health insurance. Why would you pay dure. It is a hope that it will be, but I would the ever-increasing private health insurance love to know how anyone is going to police premiums when what you cop is a big bill? If it, to check up on it. ‘Mrs Jones, did Dr you are lucky, you only have one big bill. But Smith tell you how much this was going to many people, recovering from a procedure in cost?’ ‘No.’ And Dr Smith will say, ‘I cer- hospital and not feeling well at all, have to tainly did.’ And people who are under pres- cover not one gap but many gaps—bundles sure, who are ill, who are sick, may well not of bills that you did not know you would get, hear the information or, as in times past, may from theatre bills to whatever. Some of that is not be told the information. now being gathered together under a varia- It may be that we have got a differently in- tion on legislation introduced by Dr Law- formed medical profession, but some years rence. And the screams then from the coali- back I chaired an inquiry into private health tion in opposition on behalf of their medical insurance. It was really edifying to have the profession colleagues! ‘We can’t cop this. surgeons come along to that committee and This is outrageous! This is shocking and ter- give evidence! I asked them questions like, rible!’ Now here they come with a piece of ‘What is the gap? What would a person have legislation that goes a long way to doing, to pay for an appendix operation in your more or less, what Minister Lawrence was clever hands, doctor?’ They answered, ‘Well, then proposing. that is a really good question, Senator Crow- I have grave concerns about this legisla- ley. We don’t know.’ So I hope somebody is tion. As I said, on the evidence of the obste- going to educate the surgeons of Australia, tricians I believe that trusting the doctors to let alone the rest of the medical profession, set fees and to stick to them is an open-ended about what the gap will be—not just what invitation to excess, if not greed. I certainly they are charging but what a person’s private would not hold my breath for doctors to set health insurance coverage will be. As the those limits. I find it extremely disappointing doctors said back then, the doctors might be that that is apparently the best that we can do. very annoyed that they are going to have to We have ‘carroted’ and ‘sticked’ people into do these calculations and sums. I would private health insurance, and it seems that a imagine that that is not an unreasonable few people have taken the carrot. More of thing—they are not supposed to be doing them are being beaten, ‘sticked’, into it as sums like that. They are supposed to be diag- they appreciate the penalties that will occur nosing medical conditions rather than as- to them if they do not do things before— sessing how much the gap is going to be. But if this is the legislation and this is the way Senator Heffernan—Say that again— that we are going to go, then I think it be- beaten and sticked? hoves the doctors to get it right and to give Senator CROWLEY—Mr Acting Deputy those facts to prospective patients. President, there are some over there who 14606 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

I also think it is going to be terribly im- Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- portant to have a look at just what has hap- tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minis- pened in this legislation in a very short pe- ter for Health and Aged Care) (9.37 p.m.)— riod. I would make a sunset clause of six The Health Legislation Amendment (Gap months. I see that there are some proposals Cover Schemes) Bill 2000 will provide an that we at least have a look at it in a year’s additional means by which private health time—and so we should. I remind senators insurance funds can offer gap cover to con- again that the evidence of the obstetricians in tributors for in-hospital medical care. This very recent history should give people no bill amends two acts, the National Health Act comfort whatsoever. It is called in the end 1953 and the Health Insurance Act 1973. ‘Who’s paying for all of this?’ The medical This piece of legislation is important, as it profession insist on their right to contract addresses one of the most intractable prob- between a patient and themselves. It is all a lems facing the private health insurance in- private contract, and it is largely taxpayers’ dustry—the medical gap. The gap is the dif- money. Never forget that—despite the fact ference between fees charged by doctors for that people will want to say that if you have in-hospital medical services and the com- your procedure in a private hospital there is bined health insurance benefits and Medicare no taxpayers’ money involved. Rubbish! rebate. Seventy-five per cent of the medical benefits It is crucial to remember the significant schedule for that procedure is already cov- role played by private health insurance in ered by the taxpayer, and that will continue. funding the hospital system in this country. A very significant cost in private hospitals is This contribution is simply invaluable to the met by the taxpayer. And now that rebate for financial viability of the Australian health private health insurance is come-in-sucker care system as a whole. The continued exis- money for private health insurance people tence of the gap threatens this contribution, and for people who want to put up the costs. as it may lead to the perception by consumers This is one of the big concerns: as the gap that private health insurance does not offer grows, so will the pressure on private health value for money. Senator Crowley is a doctor insurance and so will the claims against those and I would have thought she well under- funds. It is clearly inflationary, and I think we stood this much more comprehensively. I find should be very concerned about just how far her comments very critical. After 13 years of we can let that inflation pressure go. But, as I Labor in government before the Howard said, if you have already had the minister set government came into office, there was in place the rebate of 30 per cent to the tune nothing in that term of office but a raiding on of $2 billion, then this legislation is in its private health insurance and a changing of logical sequence. That, to me, is a very de- the funding of public hospitals. I can speak pressing way on which to finish. from personal experience. In 1998, I had an I do not hold my breath about this legisla- aortic valve replacement at a cost of over tion doing anything to contain costs. In fact, $40,000, where the economics of that were it is clearly an indication that costs will in- incredibly assisted by private health insur- crease because the known gap element means ance, to the tune of about $30,000, while that doctors will charge and will be allowed $8,000 was the Medicare rebate. Certainly to charge above the schedule fee. I ask the my own contribution of $3,000 was very minister whether he or she, depending on small in that area. who it is—if it is Senator Tambling, then While existing legislation allows funds to he—could provide any information to me as provide gap cover where the doctor has a to why a procedure costs so much more in a negotiated agreement, either directly with the private hospital when that procedure is not fund or with a hospital that has a negotiated associated with any of the on-costs that hap- agreement with the fund, there has been some pen in a public hospital. I have asked this resistance by the medical profession to this question before and been told that it was ir- approach due to its contractual nature. The relevant. (Time expired) proposed bill addresses this apprehension by Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14607 offering a no contract option to address the senators can consider the package in its en- gap. This approach gives funds greater flexi- tirety. bility in their approach to gap cover. At the I will now turn to some of the key meas- same time it aims to encourage a greater ures contained within the gap cover schemes number of medical practitioners to participate legislative package. The approval process in gap cover, and it will provide consumers provided for in the legislation contains a with the choice of more products offering gap number of protective measures that will en- cover. This means better value private health sure that gap cover schemes deliver maxi- insurance. The approach is entirely voluntary. mum benefit to consumers. Most importantly, Funds and doctors alike will participate on a the legislation ensures that no scheme will be totally voluntary basis. The schemes that approved unless the health fund can demon- funds will develop and that doctors will par- strate that it will not have an inflationary im- ticipate in will be those that are attractive to pact. This information will have to be pro- all parties: the funds, the doctors and the vided to the minister in detail in the fund’s contributors. application for scheme approval. It is worth Importantly, this legislation does not jeop- noting that this legislation introduces protec- ardise existing agreements that funds already tive mechanisms that do not apply to current have in place. The government is keen for agreements to address the gap. The current funds to continue their current efforts to ad- measures to address the gap which were in- dress the gap. It has been very pleasing to see troduced by the opposition do not address the the work of the funds and doctors so far to issue of the inflationary impact at all. In con- address the gap using the existing legislative trast, this measure has been designed very framework. Those doctors already partici- deliberately to ensure that inflationary im- pating in agreements are expected to continue pacts are not felt throughout the health sys- to do so under the current framework. This tem as a result of measures to address the measure will complement the current legisla- gap. To further safeguard the interests of con- tion by providing a no contract means for sumers, the legislation enables the minister to funds to cover the gap. In this way it will review the operation of schemes at regular appeal to doctors who are not currently par- intervals, and he may also impose conditions ticipating in agreements and would not do so on the continued approval of the schemes if under any circumstances due to their objec- necessary. Schemes will also be independ- tions to contracts. ently monitored by the Private Health Insur- In order to ensure maximum benefits to ance Administrative Council to determine the consumers, the proposed gap cover schemes extent to which they will generally reduce or will be developed by private health insurance eliminate gap payments by consumers. funds and will need to be approved by the The legislation also provides for revoca- Minister for Health and Aged Care before tion of schemes if they are not delivering they can come into operation. Approval will better outcomes for patients and do not meet be made with reference to a number of es- the criteria as required. Revocation is consid- sential criteria set out in the regulations at- ered to be a last resort. The regulations en- taching to the bill. The regulations have been sure that contributors are protected if a drafted in advance of the bill being passed to scheme is revoked, as they require funds in provide all parties with the opportunity to their application for scheme approval to comment. In debate of the bill in the House demonstrate that contributors would not be of Representatives, the shadow minister for disadvantaged if a scheme were revoked. As health referred to the fact that the bill pro- I have mentioned, the regulations attaching to vides for much of the detail concerning the the bill include a number of essential criteria approval and subsequent regulation of gap that funds must address in their application cover schemes in these regulations. It is pre- for scheme approval. As well as the criteria cisely for this reason that the regulations have that I have already outlined, funds are also been drafted in advance of the passage of the required to show that their scheme provides enabling legislation, so that members and informed financial consent and simplified 14608 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 billing and to ensure that the professional Northern Territory: Governance freedom of medical practitioners is main- Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- tained to identify appropriate treatments for tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minis- their patients within the scope of accepted ter for Health and Aged Care) (9.47 p.m.)—I clinical practice. rise to address two extraordinary attacks that I would like to discuss in more detail the Senator Murray has made on the Northern requirements for informed financial consent Territory in recent months. Senator Murray and simplified billing. During the debate of has twice this year attacked the system of this bill in the House of Representatives, both governance in the Northern Territory, making the shadow minister for health and the mem- the very serious allegation that the Northern ber for Fremantle made much of the fact that Territory parliament is undemocratic. I have neither the bill nor the regulations contain a very deliberately described Senator Murray’s definition of ‘informed financial consent’. comments as attacks on the Northern Terri- Informed financial consent is to be an inte- tory because that is exactly what they are. gral part of gap cover schemes, just as it is They are not attacks on the parliament, they for existing agreements between doctors and are not an attack on the government, they are funds. The requirement for informed finan- not an attack on the Country Liberal Party; cial consent states that the medical practitio- they are an attack on each and every Territo- ner is to inform the health fund member, be- rian. fore treatment if possible, or as soon as prac- The Northern Territory does have a demo- ticable after treatment, of any amount they cratic system of government. Just because may reasonably be expected to pay. Senator Murray does not support the gov- Another criterion for the gap cover ernment that the people of the Territory elect schemes is the requirement for simplified does not mean that the system is not demo- billing to be provided, where appropriate. In cratic. Senator Murray is highly critical of the cases where there is no gap payment owed by fact that the Northern Territory has a unicam- the patient, it is obviously not necessary. The eral system of government and claims there is government is keen to encourage simplified a lack of checks and balances through an up- billing and promote it where possible as a per house. He cites Queensland as being the means to make private health insurance more only other state in Australia with a unicam- efficient and attractive, but neither funds, eral system but fails to note that there have hospitals nor doctors are currently required to been many changes of government in Queen- participate in it, including under the existing sland in recent times. Does he think the gap agreement framework. This bill estab- Queensland parliament is undemocratic or is lishes a voluntary, no contract framework that it a bastion of democracy only because it has will be attractive to the industry. It is now up had changes of government? Why does to funds, hospitals and doctors to work to- Senator Murray not attack the Queensland gether to produce arrangements that will parliament in a similar manner? Is it because make private health insurance more attractive he does not want to patronise and offend to Australians. I commend the bill to the Queensland voters as he has Territory voters? Senate. Is he worried that his arrogant attitude may Question resolved in the affirmative. affect the vote of his counterparts in the Sen- ate, Senators Bartlett and Woodley? Bill read a second time. It is no surprise that the system Senator Ordered that consideration of this bill in Murray advocates—the Hare-Clarke sys- Committee of the Whole be made an order of tem—is notorious for throwing up anomalous the day for the next day of sitting. election results which make it almost impos- ADJOURNMENT sible for any party to govern in its own right Motion (by Senator Tambling) proposed: and stifles decision making and development. That the Senate do now adjourn. The governments of New Zealand, Tasmania and the Australian Capital Territory, all of which use this system, are almost moribund. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14609

It is no surprise that this system results in an MLA and minister, Tim Baldwin. The objec- increased number of ‘minor’ party candidates tions were from people in the Aboriginal such as those from the Democrats and Greens communities of Lajamanu, Kalkaringi and being elected, a fact, I am sure, which has not Daguragu, who wished to remain in Tim escaped Senator Murray’s notice. Senator Baldwin’s electorate. Obviously, Mr Baldwin Murray talks about the need for checks and has been doing a good job of representing the balances on the parliament and proposes a people in his electorate, both Aboriginal and complex parliament that involves a cumber- non-Aboriginal. This makes a mockery of some committee system and two elections Senator Murray’s claims. Perhaps if he both- just to appoint a Chief Minister. Imagine the ered to discover anything about the Territory cost to voters, let alone the confusion. before going off half-cocked he would make In contrast, the Northern Territory parlia- a bit more sense. His paternalistic and pa- ment has many checks and balances but the tronising views regarding Aboriginal people most important is the will of the people. are hypocritical in the extreme. Every four years Territorians go to the polls Senator Murray also bemoans the fact that and make the government accountable in the there is a weak opposition in the Territory. hardest forum of all, the ballot box. This is This is no-one’s fault but the Labor Party’s. democracy in action. I am sorry if it offends What is his own party doing in the Territory? Senator Murray that the Country Liberal To date, Territorians have rejected the few Party keeps winning elections in the Terri- Australian Democrat candidates who have tory. Perhaps he should consider that it is bothered to stand because their policies and because the people want it to represent them. personalities are not in tune with Territorians. A further check is the fact that the Common- They receive only a handful of votes because wealth parliament, as we have been reminded they are not in touch with Territory aspira- so painfully in recent times with euthanasia, tions—as Senator Murray’s ill-informed and has the power to overturn any legislation the ill-timed comments so obviously demonstrate Northern Territory parliament creates. This is at the federal level. On the other hand, if you the ultimate restriction placed on a demo- want a superior statement of commitment and cratically elected parliament, and one I hope principles on Territory issues, take a good, will never be used again—particularly after hard look at the Country Liberal Party con- the Democrats’ political wrangling over stitution and platform. An indication of the mandatory sentencing. Democrats’ true interest in the Territory and Senator Murray claims that a quarter of the Territorians is the fact that their Territory web Territory’s population—Aboriginal people— site goes straight to the Western Australian is not represented in the Northern Territory Democrats site. They cannot even be both- parliament. I am sure that many people in the ered setting up a Territory specific site. Territory would strongly disagree with this. It is interesting to note that, while Senator The Aboriginal parliamentarians John Ah Kit Murray is often very critical of the Northern and Maurice Rioli might have a right to be- Territory government, the economic data and lieve that they are representing their people, other evidence all point to the fact that the as would most other members of the Legisla- CLP government has been achieving much tive Assembly, particularly those with large for Territorians. The picture painted of the Aboriginal populations in their electorates, Territory from any objective use of statistics such as Maggie Hickey, Peter Toyne, Sid and facts is that of a young, vigorous and Stirling, John Elferink and Tim Baldwin. It is well-informed community. Let me briefly interesting to note that following the recent relate some ABS statistics, mostly based on redistribution of Northern Territory electoral the 1996 census but also on some more re- divisions, the seat which saw the most con- cent research, to give a snapshot of the Ter- stituent objections was Victoria River, now to ritory’s social and economic situation. be known as Daly. This seat has a significant The average age of Territorians is 28 years Aboriginal population and is held by a compared to a national average of 34 years. Country Liberal Party politician, Territory Unemployment in the Northern Territory av- 14610 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 erages about four per cent compared to a na- ness; and, recently, mandatory sentencing. tional rate of about seven per cent. As at This innovation and drive is what makes the September 1999, 73.7 per cent of Territorians Territory great, and I am proud to be a part of participated in the work force compared to a the political party which has played such a national average of 64 per cent. Again at large role in making the Territory what it is September 1999, Territorians aged 15 to 24 now. had the highest median weekly income in Aviation Safety Australia at $193 and the nation’s lowest youth full-time unemployment rate of 8.9 per Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (9.57 cent. Territory participation in the arts is sec- p.m.)—The issue of aviation safety has now ond only to that of the ACT. The Northern been on the front pages of the major newspa- Territory has the third highest percentage of pers for months, but it appears that the re- online households in Australia, with 16 per sponsible minister, Mr Anderson, is not tak- cent of households in 1998 having Internet ing any notice. A number of those stories access and 39 per cent of households fre- have related to airline mishaps, but in the quently using a home computer. case of Qantas flight QF1 at Bangkok and now, tragically, Whyalla Airlines, we are The Territory exported an estimated dealing with major aviation accidents. We are 453,000 head of cattle during 1999 worth confronting safety problems at the regular almost $92 million. In 1999 the Northern passenger end of the industry, where passen- Territory had the highest exports per capita of gers pay their fare and expect airline opera- any Australian region at $1,571 per person. tors with a licence issued by CASA and an Total Australian exports per capita by com- operation monitored by CASA to be safe. parison equate to $403 per person. In 1999 That is not to say that people chartering air- the total number of visitors to the Territory craft should not be entitled to hold the same was 1.294 million. The tourism industry gen- view; but the minister, unfortunately, contin- erates almost $800 million per annum for the ues to sit on his hands. Northern Territory economy. In 1998-99, defence accounted for 12 per cent of the Ter- The evidence that has been presented to ritory’s gross state product and mining ac- the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and counted for 13.8 per cent of the Territory’s Transport Committee to date and the aviation GSP. The Northern Territory’s GSP increased incidents and accidents of the last few by 7.6 per cent during 1998-99 to $6,460 months have put at risk Australia’s reputation million. The Northern Territory has averaged as a very safe place to fly. It is important that 5.6 per cent or $307.6 million growth in GSP that hard-earned reputation be restored as over the past five years. soon as possible. The minister has the key role in restoring this confidence in Australian Senator Murray obviously believes that the aviation but, as I said, he has so far chosen Country Liberal Party has maintained the not to accept that role. He must oversee the same policies, views and attitudes on every regulation of aviation to ensure that it pro- issue over the past 25 years to remain the vides an effective regulatory regime that in- most successful political party in Australia. cludes effective regulation and surveillance The only thing that has stayed the same in of the industry. CASA obviously has a key that time is the commitment of the Country role, and an important part of that role is en- Liberal Party, which is to achieve the best for suring that it has the resources and the skills Territorians and the Northern Territory and to to ensure that the industry operates in a safe maintain the lifestyle that has made the Ter- way. ritory the envy of so many people in Austra- lia—especially those like Senator Murray. The Rural and Regional Affairs and The Territory and the Country Liberal Party Transport Committee also has a role to play have been leaders and pioneers in social pol- in this process, but I would hope that it would icy across many fields: euthanasia; Aborigi- only be a transitional one. The committee has nal issues in education, health, and business before it a number of matters that must be and joint ventures; issues relating to remote- properly considered. Firstly, the CASA Gen- eral Manager, Aviation Operations, Mr Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14611

Leversuch, told the committee at the recent The review talked about the need for CASA to estimates hearings that CASA had met both look at training and checking procedures; that is, Qantas and Ansett last August, soon after he QANTAS training and checking for pilots. took up his current position. He confirmed In contrast, Mr Toller has assured me that that he had told both airlines to bring their there were no problems with that aspect of procedures for training, checking and opera- Qantas’s operations. That apparent conflict tional matters into line with the regulations. can easily be resolved if the committee is Mr Leversuch told the committee that both provided with a copy of that report. Again, if airlines were keen to comply with these necessary this could be considered in camera, regulations. I for one would have hoped that subject to the views of the committee. they were already in compliance. In my view, While there have clearly been problems the committee has no choice but to inquire with the high capacity regular public trans- further into the reason for those discussions, port sector, the effective regulation and sur- their nature and the actions by the airlines veillance of the low capacity RPT sector is of that have followed. even greater concern. The circumstances sur- Secondly, the Australian Transport Safety rounding the suspension and then revocation Bureau has advised the committee that be- of that suspension of the air operating certifi- tween January 1998 and February 2000 there cate held by the operator Air Facilities, an were 2,946 occurrences which Qantas and RPT operator based in Albury, must be prop- Ansett had reported to it or to the Bureau of erly considered. Partly to achieve that, today Air Safety Investigation. We have been ad- I gave notice of a motion requesting that all vised that 1,032 of these have been investi- documents relating to the operation of this gated and we know that 988 of those investi- company be tabled by 5 p.m. this Thursday. gations are complete and 44 are still under The tabling of this material is an important investigation. On the face of it, these are starting point for such an investigation. There alarming figures and the committee must be has also been confusion and contradictory provided with a detailed briefing from the comments from CASA about the safety rec- Australian Transport Safety Bureau. That ord of Whyalla Airlines. This confusion and briefing may need to be in camera, if the these contradictions must also be properly committee so agrees. The committee has also addressed, whether by this Senate committee been advised that CASA is not prepared to or by some other agency. provide, in the estimates context, a copy of A number of key issues must be addressed the report of an independent review of its by Mr Anderson—or someone—if the per- surveillance of Qantas’s operating procedures formance of the safety regulator is to meet which I think was triggered by the QF1 the expectations of the travelling public. Bangkok accident. It is important that the CASA must have the resources necessary to issues raised by this review not only are do its job. That job is to ensure a safe avia- properly addressed but are seen to be prop- tion environment rather than simply saving erly addressed. The committee could facili- the industry or the government money. tate that process. CASA must have the necessary skills to en- I note that, while CASA has so far refused sure that the aviation regulatory regime can to provide a copy of this audit report to the be effectively enforced. And CASA must Senate, a CASA spokesperson was quite ensure that its work is properly prioritised, happy to provide some information to the with safety clearly placed at the top of the media about its findings. The Sydney Morn- list. The right safety regime, properly en- ing Herald recently reported a CASA forced, is the most effective way of ensuring spokesperson as saying that the internal re- the safety of the travelling public. view found concerns about the training and Over the past few years, there has been a checking of Qantas pilots. The person was progressive erosion of CASA staff numbers, quoted as saying: staff skills and staff experience. There has also been a misallocation of work priorities, at least in the high capacity and low capacity 14612 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

RPT sectors of the industry. I am concerned it and has very little going for his team. The that, even when CASA does get an appropri- longer he has to wait for the actual event, the ate regulatory regime in place, the authority greater the likelihood that people would become will not be able to provide any effective sur- aware of the extent of the economic mess we are veillance of that regime, and I fear that we in and this would undermine any chances they are now just seeing the beginning of the im- might have had. pact of that surveillance breakdown. All of His original plan was for mid May—but the mas- these matters should have been properly ad- sive rush to register for the voters roll (2.5 million registrations in less than 2 months) meant that dressed by the minister, Mr Anderson, but he they had to extend the time allocated for the exer- has failed to do so. Given that it is about cise. Then the new roll is so different from the old public safety, there is absolutely no justifica- one (1995) that the Delimitation Commission has tion for him choosing to ignore his responsi- been unable to do the job in the time allocated. bilities. It is not just a matter for the CASA Justice Sandura is a stickler for procedure and has board or the Director of Aviation Safety, as stuck to his guns and is still not finished—with 9 days to go to nomination date! So eventually his Mr Anderson keeps telling us; it is very much th a matter for this government generally and nerve broke and he went for the 24/25 June in Mr Anderson in particular. To date, Mr An- the hope that the delimitation would be complete derson has shown that he is not up to the in time for the procedures to be complete for the nomination courts to sit to accept nominations mark. from the political parties by the end of May. Over the past 12 months or so we have The lateness of the final decisions of the delimita- seen an authority desperately trying to get all tion exercise is also to his advantage in that his the paperwork right in relation to high capac- team have had the voters roll since 16th of April ity and low capacity RPT operators. It ap- when it was handed to the Delimitation Commis- pears that there is a long way to go before sion. Since the President gets a update on the pro- that goal is achieved. It has been my view for gress of the Commission every two days, they some time that, until CASA had its own also know where this exercise is going and have books and records in order, the authority and been able to plan the selection of candidates and the minister, Mr Anderson, would be badly all the other administration that goes into candi- date selection and nominations. exposed if there was a major accident. That accident has now occurred. I have just spent the morning with the MDC can- didate team—nearly complete now and bruised Zimbabwe and battered by recent violence but still deter- Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) mined to continue to the election date and what (10.06 p.m.)—This is the first opportunity I will follow. We still do not know what the roll have had since I received the communication looks like, what the new boundaries for constitu- which I am going to discuss tonight to pres- encies are and therefore all the candidates are still only provisional as the constituencies for which ent these views to the Senate. On 20 May, an they have been selected might not be there in the email was sent out from Zimbabwe to some new dispensation. If that happens we then have to people who sent it on to me. I thought it go through the whole selection process again— would be useful for the Senate to get the fla- with days to go!! Its bizarre, and the Secretary Gen- vour of some of the things that are going on eral of the Commonwealth says he thinks the there and surround the election there. The elections can still be free and fair! We have gone email was entitled ‘The game begins’. For to Court this week to seek a delay in the Nomina- obvious reasons I will not name anyone. It tion Court until we can get sight of these crucial reads: documents and I cannot see the courts not grant- ing us that decision. This might then delay the I was wondering when Mugabe would break and election date but we are quite happy to have the go for the actual election date—it has been obvi- election on the date proposed as we do not need ous from the start that he wanted the election as more time for campaigning and the sooner the soon as possible. This is contrary to the popular better as far as the country is concerned. But we view that he might not even call the election. must be given adequate time to study the roll and However, he has known from the start that he has delimitation results before we can be expected to to face the electorate sooner or later and that his put up candidates. only hope was to make sure the race was run on turf he had chosen. He also knows he is up against Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14613

But back to the candidates—we are putting up 120 President appoints 20 members—8 as Governors candidates—one in every constituency and they of Provinces and 12 as ordinary members of Par- all know what they have let themselves in for by liament—30 seats in all out of 150 member standing for the MDC. There are 7 women and 4 House. We therefore need 76 seats to control par- whites in the team—not enough women from our liament, 101 seats to change the constitution. In point of view but all our candidates were selected either case we would expect Mugabe to resign by consensus and this was the result—achieved from the Presidency and to call a presidential only after we had intervened strongly to get more election which would run within 35 days. Under women on the list. This is one of the reasons why normal circumstances I would have said that such we support a party list/proportional representation majorities were unlikely, however, given the po- system for any new constitution for the country as litical culture within which we operate and the we can then appoint as many women to the list as present circumstances, I have little doubt that we we feel is necessary. But for this election we have will gain sufficient majority to achieve the above. to live with what we have got from the constitu- What has happened in recent weeks is a distinct encies. hardening of opinions to the effect that Mugabe This past week has seen widespread violence should not be allowed to retire without retribution throughout the country—many homes and other for what he has done in the last 3 months. If I property burnt to the ground and people beaten were Mugabe I would keep my helicopter full of and killed. The police continue to stand aloof fuel and next to the house. from all of this and in most cases do not intervene. That is the end of the email. I know the per- President Mugabe has continued to support the son who wrote that. I knew him a couple of continued presence of Zanu PF thugs on farms and in rural villages where they act as vigilantes decades ago, and he is a very well informed on behalf of Zanu PF with the MDC as the princi- and very brave person. I do hope that his op- ple target. He has also continued to refuse to use timism is rewarded and that democracy in the the police or the armed forces to bring the vio- fullest multiparty sense is restored to Zim- lence under control and the bulk of it is still being babwe. I thought that the Senate might like to organised, financed and directed by senior people have a situation report from the front, as it in government. This means that people are help- were. Thank you, Madam President. less to protect themselves and their assets and more than anything, this is what is so disturbing Estimates: Evidence about this whole farce. The purpose of the opera- Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (10.14 tion is not the reallocation of land—because the p.m.)—Tonight I want to make some com- land reform program cannot be undertaken by ments about events in estimates committees these means—the reason is purely an attempt to in the last few weeks, in particular about the intimidate the rural population—who are the most standard of evidence given by ministers and vulnerable, into supporting the local Zanu PF can- officers at the table. It has been my experi- didates. ence that some of those answers have been I continue to believe that this strategy is not going dissembling, some have been obstructionist to work—the country is so much more urbanised and some have bordered on being misleading. than it was in the past, better educated and politi- cally experienced and informed. The situation in I want to particularly highlight the question the economy is so serious that everyone who lives that came up in the Finance and Public Ad- here knows this is where the real problem lies. ministration Committee and the Treasury This becomes more apparent by the day as busi- estimates. The issue we were considering, nesses close and people are thrown onto the street brought out by the opposition in its ques- or you go into a shop and see the prices are still tioning, was the intention of the government rising faster than incomes. Everywhere I go and to have a direct mail-out letter from the talk to people from all walks of life, they say—‘do Prime Minister, via the tax office, based on not worry about the intimidation’; they know what the AEC providing the tax office with an to do when we get to the election. I think Mugabe electronic version of the roll. I want to assert is going to receive the shock of his life this time around. here that I believe the activities by the tax commissioner and the Electoral Commis- For those of you who do not know our system— sioner are unlawful. I will follow that issue we elect 120 members of Parliament by majority vote in this election. The Chiefs put up 10 candi- through later in the week. I am not going to dates who are then elected to Parliament and the address that tonight. 14614 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

In the course of cross-examination of the As far as I am aware, these matters are still under Australian Electoral Commission on 26 May, consideration at the moment and they will be de- we proceeded along a certain line of ques- termined closer to the event. tioning. I want to share that with the chamber We proceeded with a few more questions tonight, before I move on to the Treasury and along the same line to try to evince some sort the tax office. For the purposes of this first of answer. Senator Kemp enters the list again quote, the three characters involved are me, and says: Senator Hill and the Australian Electoral As I said, this is a matter that the government, and Commissioner, Mr Becker. It goes like this: the tax office ultimately, will determine closer to Senator ROBERT RAY—So has Mr Car- the event. Clearly, there are a number of options mody given you an indication of what is going to which are being considered. This is a matter for be in the mail-out? the tax office and for the government’s considera- tion. Mr BECKER—None at all. Senator ROBERT RAY—None at all? We go another page and a half trying to find out what is in this mail-out and whether it is a Mr BECKER—Not to me, no. letter from the Prime Minister. I put the Senator HILL—That is what his answer was. question one last time: You do not have to repeat it. Senator ROBERT RAY—Just one last ques- Senator ROBERT RAY—He did not indicate tion on that: you are not willing to say here to you it might be a direct mail letter from the whether you have been approached to have the Prime Minister to those 12 million people? Prime Minister send out a direct mail letter in this Senator HILL—He said ‘none at all’. direct mail-out? Senator ROBERT RAY—What do you think? Senator Kemp obstructs for a few more lines. Do you know that, Senator Hill, as part of gov- Mr Carmody comes back in and says: ernment policy? My only observation at this moment is that the Senator HILL—He said ‘none at all’. campaign is designed to be effective. Part of that Senator ROBERT RAY—I am asking you effectiveness is the personalised nature of it. now as the minister at the table. I am not going to go through any further Senator HILL—What is the question you parts of that evidence, but it is clear that we want to ask me? were not answered directly. Senator ROBERT RAY—What is in the mail- The Prime Minister himself was asked a out? question in another place the same day that And finally— the tax commissioner appeared before the Senator HILL—I don’t know what is in the committee. He talked about the tax office mail-out. mailing out a booklet. There was no mention There is the evidence we got on 26 May. So in that answer that it was going to be a direct we went and saw the tax commissioner on 30 mail letter to every elector in Australia from May. himself at a cost of $10 million. There was no mention at all. However, later that night Madam President, it is too long and tedi- on the 7.30 Report—and I must say that he ous to stretch your patience tonight by read- was on for other reasons—he was ambushed ing the whole record, so I will just read a few with that question and he fessed up and said, highlights. I am not distorting what was said. ‘Oh, yes, I am going to send that letter out.’ I have been very careful in selecting some of these quotes. I had Mr Carmody in front of Looking back at that evidence, Mr Becker me and I asked him about this mail-out: clearly said that he had no knowledge of the Prime Minister’s mail-out. Mr Carmody said Does it have a message in it from any individual? it was still under consideration. Remember Mr CARMODY—There are considerations of the effective dates: 26 May for Mr Becker that but, as I understand what I am being told at and 30 May for Mr Carmody. Yet today we the moment, the final details are being settled. received in a letter from Mr Becker 17 cor- Another question later, Senator Kemp comes rections to the Hansard or to the evidence into the play and says: given on Wednesday, 26 May. There were 17 Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14615 corrections, but I want to share an absolute ord. It really stretches the imagination that a highlight with you, which is point 16. This is decision was still pending, according to Mr a letter signed by Mr Becker on 31 May. He Carmody, when, 41 days before, he wrote to writes: Mr Becker and asked for the electoral roll so 16. At page 366, Senator Ray asked a series of he could use it for a mail-out. questions concerning the mailout, starting with the We often hear complaints from coalition question: ministers that estimates takes too long. No ‘So has Mr Carmody given you an indication of wonder it takes so long, when we are given what is going to be in the mail-out?’ such dissembling and dishonest answers. If Mr Becker went on to say: you want a further example of that, have a Since last week’s hearing I have become aware look at the evidence given by the tax office as that in Mr Carmody’s letter of 19 April— to whose idea this mail-out was. Remember, that is 37 days before Mr Becker appeared it was an unprecedented mail-out of 12 mil- and 41 days before Mr Carmody appeared— lion people, eight million addresses, $10.2 million—and guess what? No-one in the tax he indicated that the mailout would include an office can remember whose idea it was. They information booklet ‘along with a letter from the say they think it is an iterative process. I can- Prime Minister’. Although the letter was ad- dressed to me, I was not in Canberra when the not believe that public officials could agree to letter was received by the AEC and I have no rec- spend $10 million on such a massive project ollection of having seen Mr Carmody’s letter be- and not remember where the idea came from. fore last week’s hearing. I apologise that I was not I can tell them where the idea came from; able to assist the Committee at the time of hear- maybe I can refresh their memory. The idea ing. came from the Prime Minister’s office, and So here we have a letter from the tax com- the idea came from Mr Mark Pearson, the missioner to the Electoral Commissioner well Liberal Party advertising agent who is cur- over a month before both hearings. But when rently being paid $195,000 to coordinate the we ask them questions about it, Mr Becker GST advertising package. That is where it has never heard of it, and Mr Carmody does came from. I do not believe the tax commis- not answer the questions, on both occasions sioner, I do not believe the Electoral Com- massively aided and abetted by ministers at missioner, and I do not believe those tax offi- the table. The ministers at the table have not cials who tell me they cannot remember come into this chamber and corrected the where the idea came from. If they want to record—and they should correct it. We even mislead committees like that, I think they are went as far as saying that there was a cover- going to have to face the consequences. up here. Little did we guess how close to the Women’s Forum 2000 truth we were. There was a cover-up. The tax Senator COONAN (New South Wales) commissioner knew and wrote about a letter (10.24 p.m.)—One of the more rewarding from the Prime Minister but did not divulge it tasks that I have as a senator for New South as evidence when questioned before the esti- Wales is to be my state’s representative for mates committee. Senator Jocelyn Newman, the Minister As- Mr Becker, of course, says he did not sisting the Prime Minister for the Status of know. I ask you: how could the Australian Women. To that end, it was my pleasure to Electoral Commissioner not read correspon- recently host a women’s roundtable in Syd- dence from the tax commissioner? How ney, Women’s Forum 2000. The forum gath- could he not remember it, as he says, even if ered women from peak bodies as diverse as he did view it? Surely the Electoral Commis- the Australian Council of Business Women, sioner would remember a request to provide the Country Women’s Association, New 12 million names for the purposes of a mail- South Wales Women in Agriculture, and out that included a letter from the Prime Women in Super—to mention a few. Minister. It really stretches the imagination to The purpose of the forum was twofold: the think that Mr Becker forgot about that, but I first was to disseminate information to ensure have to believe him; he has corrected the rec- that government policy initiatives impacting 14616 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 on women are both known and understood, Women now make up 44 per cent of the and the second was to provide a conduit to work force, compared with 28 per cent in the minister and senior policy advisers to 1964. Fifty-nine per cent of mothers in two- convey feedback and assess concerns. It is, of parent families with dependent children are course, a two-way process, and input from employed, while 47 per cent of women in those outside the government but expert in single-parent families are employed. These their field and from those representing peak figures clearly reveal the need to address the bodies is valued. The forum built on this two- role that the workplace plays in the daily way process by linking non-government or- lives of working women and their families. ganisations with government. Currently, approximately 68 per cent of certi- In the year 2000 it is time to assess and to fied agreements and 79 per cent of Australian set new priorities for women. We have seen workplace agreements approved under the the first wave and the second wave of politi- Workplace Relations Act include one or more cal activity by women, and a great deal has family friendly measures. Specific measures been achieved. But there is still more to be have been designed to overcome perceived done, including the setting of new priorities. I disparities in workplace relations. The Af- would like to take this opportunity to thank firmative Action Agency was one of those those advisers from ministerial offices who measures. The government’s Equal Opportu- participated in the forum: Catherine Murphy, nity for Women in the Workplace Act was of the Prime Minister’s department; Jo Cal- passed in December 1999, as a result of a well, Acting Assistant Secretary representing review of the old AAA. The new act formally the Office of the Status of Women; and Mary recognises pregnancy and breastfeeding as Jo Fisher, Senior Adviser to the Minister for significant issues for working women and Employment, Workplace Relations and Small will extend the educative and assistance role Business, Peter Reith. I would also like to of the agency. thank Vicki Toovey, of Minister Newman’s The coalition is committed to strengthen- office, for all her assistance; Sue White, from ing the position of women in society, most Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry; and particularly by ensuring a strong economy Carolyn Swindell, from the office of the that provides low interest rates, low inflation Minister for Aged Care. Also in attendance and real jobs. For example, female unem- was Ms Gillian Skinner, shadow minister for ployment has dropped from eight per cent in health in New South Wales, who represented March 1996 to 6.8 per cent in January 2000, the Leader of the Opposition, Mrs Kerry with over 345,000 more women employed in Chikarovski. January 2000 than in March 1996. The forum consisted of three sessions Another priority that was reinforced by dealing with specific policy areas. The first these discussions was the ongoing need for was Women and the Workplace and Women child-care facilities. When the coalition came and Families, addressed by the Director of to office in 1996, it inherited a situation that Equal Opportunity for Women in the Work- saw many child-care places being allocated place Agency, Ms Fiona Krautil. Often new inequitably. The government considers child priorities are set as a response to changes in care an essential element of the commitment the workplace. New figures show the number to Australian families which assists family of female business operators grew by almost members to participate in the work force and 10 per cent between 1995 and 1997, com- to balance their commitments. With that in pared with less than three per cent growth for mind, the government has allocated $5.3 bil- men. Women opened almost 40,000 busi- lion over four years, to 2002-03, to support nesses in that time, and the number of busi- child care. The launch of the Stronger Fami- nesses opened by women is increasing three lies and Communities Strategy package saw times faster than the number of businesses an additional $65.4 million for child care opened by men. These figures in themselves over the next four years to support the needs dictate changing priorities. of families who have difficulty accessing conventional child-care arrangements. This Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14617 will particularly help those in rural and re- The government is also providing $6.1 gional areas and indeed even remote areas. million over four years to progress the Na- The second session of the forum, which I tional Strategy for Ageing Australia, to build found challenging due to my personal interest on the achievements of the International Year in rural and regional affairs, focused on is- of Older Persons. It is a whole-of- sues facing women outside metropolitan ar- government approach to the ageing, includ- eas. This session was addressed by Mrs Mar- ing more positive images of older Australians garet Smith, the Director of the Foundation and research into mature age employment, to for Regional and Rural Renewal, and Ms name a few. The barriers to advancement Jenny Hawkins, a farmer and mother of four may be subtle, but they are just as real for the young children as well as a member of the self-conscious teenager as they are for the Regional Women’s Advisory Council. One of harried mother who has simply got off the the matters raised was that of a lack of lead- gravy train to care for her family and lost not ership programs for women in the bush. The only her skills but also her self-confidence government has provided $37.1 million over and self-esteem. four years in the recent budget for the Poten- The forum was a great success, with many tial Leadership in Local Communities Pro- participants establishing new contacts, creat- gram, which will identify and support com- ing their own links and building links be- munity leaders from outside industry and tween government, rural and regional New government structures. The session was in- South Wales and the non-government sector. valuable as an important part of developing These forums are a very valuable way for policy adapted to rural and regional areas. It those of us who represent others to become is important we receive input from women accessible, to get out of our own comfort who may have a very different set of priori- zones and to open up the channels of com- ties to their urban counterparts. munication to very good effect. The third session of the forum examined World Environment Day how younger and older women related to one Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) another and how discrimination against both (10.33 p.m.)—Today being 5 June, Australia groups, somewhat paradoxically, can be celebrates World Environment Day, and we similar—for example, on the basis of preg- are the host for this international event. It is a nancy, body image and age. Ms Sabina Lau- fitting day to reflect on our nation’s contribu- ber, Director of the Sex Discrimination Unit tion to environment protection. Tonight I of the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity want to examine the present government’s Commission, gave a fascinating speech on recent record in protecting the environment these related topics. One in every 200 West- in my own electorate of the Northern Terri- ern women are affected by eating disorders, tory. with 10 per cent of those dying in the pursuit of a supposedly perfect body image, all World Environment Day is an official fanned by the fashion media. United Nations Environment Program. Ade- laide, the capital of the state of South Austra- Older women and their re-entry into the lia, has been selected to host the international work force was also the topic of lively dis- events associated with this program. Austra- cussion. The government has recently com- lian governments at state and federal levels mitted $24 million over four years to fund the are using the day to promote positive images Return to Work Program, which aims to pro- of their environmental and social justice vide skills assistance, to build confidence and management. In Australia, like in most to increase familiarity with current technol- countries, the government of the day have ogy for people seeking to re-enter the work used the opportunity to promote themselves force after an absence of two or more years as good managers of the country when it due to their roles as primary caregivers. We comes to environmental issues. While com- in government are serious about ensuring that munity, environment and education groups no-one is excluded from contributing to the here in Australia work hard to repair the work force if that is their choice. damage to our environment, this federal gov- 14618 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000 ernment continues to obstruct international vised that the processing plant, which is us- environmental negotiations, as well as mov- ing salt and alum, has no waste management ing to substantially weaken environmental plan in place. I have also been advised that protection both locally and nationally. septic waste has been used for dust control on I believe that most Australians are strongly the unsealed road leading into the plant. One behind the principle of protecting our envi- has to wonder what questions, if any, the ronment and that they support efforts to minister’s department put to the Northern maintain Australia’s biological diversity, but Territory government about their manage- I believe that many, if not most, people in the ment program before they gave it a big tick. Northern Territory would see additional rea- How did they imagine the local fisheries de- sons for protecting the environment. Those partment would or could monitor the effect of reasons are the strong and increasing impor- the jellyfish harvesting if they had not both- tance of ecotourism and recreational fishing ered to try to find out anything about the to the Territory’s economy. For economic and ecology of the species in the first place? environmental reasons, you would imagine When interviewed on radio on 10 May this that the Northern Territory government year, Mr Deng from the David Glory would be at pains to protect the environment Group—the group responsible for this jelly- and in particular coastal and inland waters. fish operation—said, when asked about the You would expect that the federal govern- use of chemicals in the process: ment would be vigorous and vigilant in It won’t have any impact on the environment be- regulating environmental protection in the cause we got the licence in Victoria and Queen- states and territories. However, a recent event sland you know. I mean the research has been in the Northern Territory raises difficult done in all the other states. It’s new in the Terri- questions about this government’s commit- tory but it’s not new in other states. ment to protecting our environment. Recently In other words, he is inferring there that, be- an export licence to harvest jellyfish in the cause research on the impact on the environ- Northern Territory was granted to a Chinese ment may well have been done in states other company. Under the federal Wildlife Protec- than the Territory, it was good enough to just tion (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Act simply lift that research and its results—if of 1982, such a licence requires an effective course there were any results and if of course fishery management program to be submitted there was any research done in those states— for scrutiny by the Department of the Envi- and apply that to the situation in the Northern ronment and Heritage. It seems that a plan of Territory. In the same interview, Mr Palmer, sorts was submitted, but I understand that it the Northern Territory Minister for Primary contained little more than the names of the Industries and Fisheries, said: two jellyfish species and the conditions of the I mean it is a development licence and it is very development export licence, which includes difficult to assess what impact it might have tak- that an amount not exceeding 1,500 tonnes of ing a few ton of jellyfish on a very large system jellyfish be harvested per year, that only hand unless you actually go and take some. scoops or dip nets be used, and that NT Fish- There is not an abundance of scientific lit- eries staff observe the operation of the fishery erature on the jellyfish that are being har- on only five single days per year. vested, but reports have been published both In May of this year the Borroloola police here and abroad. We should be concerned confiscated fifteen 100-metre nets from the about what has been published because it operators following a rescue operation in- suggests that jellyfish may be an important volving one of the jellyfish vessels. You may habitat for other species of juvenile coastal be aware that the use of these nets would fish as they grow and mature to the next stage constitute a clear breach of the Northern Ter- of the life cycle. While this research is not ritory government’s fishery regime for the conclusive, it suggests that we should be operation. The operators have also estab- careful about jellyfish harvesting operations lished a jellyfish processing plant at King because of the negative impact it might have Ash Bay near Borroloola. I have been ad- on other fish. At the very least, we should be Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14619 investigating for these possible impacts. The The idea of the Australian Government hosting effect of bycatch, which is the unintentional World Environment Day festivities for the whole catching of other fish through jellyfish har- world is a little like having Peter Reith leading a vesting, is another concern. It is hard to May Day march or having John Howard and John imagine that five days observation over a Herron hosting a conference about a treaty with year—only five days—would be an adequate indigenous Australians. period for assessing the extent of bycatch and He went on to say: its possible impact on the population of other Our Federal government has a woeful environ- species. mental track record. There has been precious little action on many issues of national importance. Finally, it is known that leatherback tur- Further, at many international negotiations, Aus- tles, which are in decline globally, feed on tralia has acted like an environmental dinosaur. one of the species of jellyfish that are to be harvested. In January of this year it was re- When it comes to jellyfish harvesting in the ported in Nature—the world’s most authori- Northern Territory it would seem that that is tative scientific journal—that the Pacific an accurate observation and that the federal population of these turtles will disappear government’s record on the environment in within a decade. In light of this, we should be this instance is as wobbly as ever. concerned about preservation of leatherback Employment: Youth turtles in Australian waters. When the North- Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital Ter- ern Territory minister, Mr Palmer, was asked ritory) (10.43 p.m.)—Labour market strate- on 16 May by the local member for Barkly, gies are desperately needed to increase the Ms Maggie Hickey, a question on notice in level of acceptance of young people into the the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly full-time paid work force. Australia-wide, the about the turtles, he said: unemployment rate of young people aged 15 What about the turtles? There is absolutely no to 19 years looking for full-time work was indication that the taking of a few jelly fish is 21.3 per cent in April. At the same time, going to impact upon the turtle stocks. skills shortages exist in many areas of em- If we are serious about preserving the leath- ployment, including information technology, erback turtles in the gulf, we need research child care, construction work and automotive on the importance of the jellyfish to the turtle and engineering work. The federal govern- diet. In light of the evidence I have presented ment exacerbated skills shortages with its tonight, I call on the minister to review the cuts of $240 million from the TAFE sector decision to issue the jellyfish export licence. I and $1 billion from universities and with its also ask him: will the regulations under the dismantling of the labour market programs new act prevent this kind of mistake hap- put in place by the former Labor government. pening again? It would seem that both the Now, in an attempt to overcome some of the process of approving the development export skills shortages caused by the federal gov- licence and the current operation of the fish- ernment’s cuts, the Victorian government has ery and processing plant require urgent in- announced a $47 million work skills em- vestigation. ployment program. The Victorian program is It is interesting to note that, as the federal expected to fund 6,000 new trainees and ap- government hosts the international celebra- prentices over the next four years. tions for World Environment Day in Ade- The government’s announcement in this laide, Dr Terrence Turtle, spokesperson for budget of increased funding for the New Ap- Citizens Against Environment Hypocrisy, prenticeships program and for the TAFE and will launch a web site—World Environment off-the-job vocational training is welcomed Day: An alternative view website online. but belated. It will take time now to rebuild This site is a campaign tool aimed at pro- and to address the skills shortages. Overall, moting acknowledgment of the environment this budget has badly disappointed young and social realities in Australia and at pro- people. Excluding the New Apprenticeships moting better management. Dr Turtle is program, the estimated total funding under quoted today as saying: the Vocational Education and Training 14620 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

Funding Act 1992 is less for 2000-01, at and also from state Department of Education $944.5 million, than it was for 1999-2000 funding, funds from the Commonwealth- where it stood at $981.2 million. Also, de- State Disability Agreement and, currently, spite featuring in Dr Kemp’s budget press some funding from the Australian Schools release, the language, literacy and numeracy Traineeships Foundation. The workshop pro- for the unemployed program will attract less vides a form of alternative education for stu- funding in 2000-01, at $30.4 million, than in dents in the 14 to 16 years age group, that is, 1999-2000 where it stood at $44.1 million. years 9 and 10. These are students who may The low rates of youth allowances and the not succeed in formal academic schooling. punitive family income test levels place Students gain accreditation for their work- many young people in poverty and crisis. shop participation. Tasmanian Certificate of In Tasmania, the unemployment rate of Education syllabus subjects, each of 100 young people aged 15 to 19 years looking for hours training, provided at the Launceston full-time work was 29.5 per cent in April. In Student Workshop are industrial woodwork, common with many, perhaps most, of our industrial metalwork, industrial health and regional areas, Bass suffers from the percep- safety, and industrial workshop practices. tion of its young people that the area lacks Students gain accreditation for these subjects, opportunities for them. A youth forum held adding to those subjects taken at the student’s last July gave many young participants the base school. The workshop is now a regis- opportunity, through their local federal mem- tered training organisation, or RTO, under the ber Michelle O’Byrne, to present their views national Australia Recognition Framework. to politicians and governments. They believe This enables it to provide specific vocational that the unemployment of young people is training to certificate 2 level. Support from continually being given bandaid attention employers of students and from customers is when what is needed is government support essential to the ongoing success of the pro- and encouragement to assist young people to gram. To ensure this, the workshop insists on develop their skills and to help them to set up standards of excellence to maintain its high small business initiatives. The Enterprise reputation. The workshop produces high Education Program, announced in the budget, quality timber and metal products and has has some of these aims but $25 million over recently established a retail section and four years will go very little way towards moved to new premises. In terms of its stu- catering for the total need and demand. dents, the Launceston Student Workshop has an outstanding success rate. The majority of Tonight I want to talk about one opportu- these formerly ‘underachieving’ students gain nity that does exist in the Bass area. It is the either apprenticeships or jobs. I think this type of initiative that forms an excellent ex- demonstrates that academic measures are ample of what can be done. The Launceston sometimes an inappropriate and useless form Student Workshop is a small, competitive of determining what constitutes success for manufacturing business staffed by specialist many young people. trades instructors. Students learn about the world of work by actually working in this The Launceston Student Workshop is one small business, creative environment. They example of the types of initiatives supported alternate with a full week at school and then a by Labor in targeting youth unemployment. full week at the workshop. At the workshop Students here experience first-hand knowl- they are rostered around the different sec- edge of the employment market, career paths, tions, such as metalwork, woodwork, the job interview and people skills, workplace spray bay and stores. responsibilities and the rights of the em- ployee. Young people here realise how im- The Launceston Student Workshop was portant education is in developing marketable established in 1978 with the aid of a Com- skills. But they cannot always find the type monwealth Schools Commission Special of training or develop the skills they need. Projects (Innovations) Grant. Funding now Such job focused education should be avail- comes, firstly, from self-generated income, able through a wide range of outlets, includ- which includes the sale of goods produced, ing schools and community groups. The Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14621

Howard government dismantled many of the A New Tax System (Goods and Services youth labour market programs which were Tax) Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules making real inroads into youth unemploy- 2000 No. 77. ment and were aiding the employability of Aged Care Act— young people. The positive programs axed by Residential Care Subsidy Amendment this government included the Working Nation Principles 2000 (No. 1). programs, such as the National Training User Rights Amendment Principles Wage Subsidy Scheme, set up to assist young 2000 (No. 1). people, and structured training programs such Australian Bureau of Statistics Act—Pro- as LEAP, the Landcare and Environment Ac- posal No. 8 of 2000. tion Plan. In their place programs such as Australian Meat and Live-stock Industry Green Corps have catered only for a fraction Act—Australian Meat and Live-stock In- of the numbers of young people previously dustry (Live Sheep Exports to Saudi Ara- assisted under Labor. Labor’s job initiatives bia) Amendment Order 2000 (No. 2). will involve different emphases for different Australian Postal Corporation Act—Regu- age groups, striking an appropriately targeted lations—Statutory Rules 2000 No. 76. balance between education and training Banking Act—Banking (Demutualisation measures, direct job creation and income of ADIs—Disclosure of Information) support. School to work transition programs, Guidelines 2000. expanded work experience opportunities, Broadcasting Services Act—Broadcasting work oriented careers education in secondary Services (Designated Series of Events) schools, apprenticeships and traineeships, Declaration No. 1 of 2000. and case management and extended job Child Support (Assessment) Act—Regula- preparation programs for the unemployed tions—Statutory Rules 2000 No. 79. will be implemented by Labor to assist the Child Support (Registration and Collection) individual needs of unemployed young peo- Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 2000 ple. No. 80. Young people face a disproportionately Civil Aviation Act—Civil Aviation Regu- high rate of unemployment due to the disap- lations—Civil Aviation Orders— pearance of many entry level jobs. Therefore, Civil Aviation Amendment Order (No. the restoration and creation of new employ- 5) 2000. ment opportunities for young people, as well Civil Aviation Amendment Order (No. as apprenticeships, traineeships and skills 6) 2000. programs, remains a high priority. As a Directive—Part— community, we need to value the skills of young people. We need to work towards pro- 105, dated 10 and 27 [5] April 2000; viding wages based on the level of skills and 2 [5], 5 [19], 8 [3], 17 [3] and 22 May experience, not merely on age. And, impor- 2000. tantly, we need to ensure that all schemes 106, dated 2 and 5 May 2000. which employ young people at lower rates, 107, dated 2 and 5 [2] May 2000. such as Work for the Dole, incorporate Exemption No. CASA EX27/2000. meaningful training components. Schemes Instruments Nos CASA 06/00, CASA such as the Launceston Student Workshop are 184/00, CASA 193/00 and CASA to be commended and, I hope, widely emu- 213/00. lated throughout Australia. Corporations Act—Regulations—Statutory Senate adjourned at 10.51 p.m. Rules 2000 No. 78. DOCUMENTS Customs Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 2000 Nos 74 and 75. Tabling Dairy Produce Act—Regulations—Statu- The following documents were tabled by tory Rules 2000 No. 68. the Clerk: 14622 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

Native Title (Right to Negotiate —Al- Defence Act— ternative Provisions) (Queensland Laws about Mineral Development Licences) Defence Force Remuneration Tribu- Determination 2000. nal—Determination No. 3 of 2000. Native Title (Right to Negotiate —Al- Determinations under section 58B—De- ternative Provisions) (Queensland Laws fence Determinations 2000/10-2000/14. about Mineral Development Licences Family Law Act—Regulations—Statutory for Alternative Provision Areas) Deter- Rules 2000 No. 81. mination 2000. Goods and Services Tax Rulings GSTR Native Title (Right to Negotiate —Al- 2000/10-GSTR 2000/13. ternative Provisions) (Queensland Laws Income Tax Assessment Act 1936— about Mining Claims) Determination 2000. Regulations—Statutory Rules 2000 No. 72. Native Title (Right to Negotiate —Al- ternative Provisions) (Queensland Laws RHQ Company Determination 2000 about Mining Claims for Alternative (No. 1). Provision Areas) Determination 2000. Lands Acquisition Act—Statements de- Native Title (Right to Negotiate —Al- scribing property acquired by agreement ternative Provisions) (Queensland Laws under sections 40 and 125 of the Act for about Mining Leases) Determination specified public purposes [2]. 2000. Migration Act—Statements for period 1 Native Title (Right to Negotiate —Al- July to 31 December 1999 under section ternative Provisions) (Queensland Laws 33, dated 7 May 2000 [2]. about Mining Leases for Alternative National Health Act—Determination under Provision Areas) Determination 2000. Schedule 1—PIB7/2000. Recognition of Representative Aborigi- Native Title Act— nal/Torres Strait Islander Body 2000 Native Title (Approved Exploration Etc. (No. 6)-(No. 9). Acts —Queensland) (Low Impact Ex- Nuclear Non-Proliferation (Safeguards) ploration Permits) Determination 2000. Act—Regulations—Statutory Rules 2000 Native Title (Approved Exploration Etc. No. 69. Acts —Queensland) (Low Impact Min- Product Rulings PR 2000/55-PR 2000/64. eral Development Licences) Determina- Radiocommunications Act—Radiocommu- tion 2000. nications Licence Conditions (Fixed Li- Native Title (Approved Exploration Etc. cence) Amendment Determination 2000 Acts —Queensland) (Low Impact Pros- (No. 1). pecting Permits) Determination 2000. Remuneration Tribunal Act—Determina- Native Title (Approved Gold or Tin tion 2000/01: Remuneration and allow- Mining Acts —Queensland) (Surface ances for holders of public office. Alluvium (Gold or Tin) Mining Claims) Sales Tax Ruling SST 19. Determination 2000. Superannuation Contributions Determina- Native Title (Approved Gold or Tin tions SCD 2000/1-SCD 2000/4. Mining Acts —Queensland) (Surface Alluvium (Gold or Tin) Mining Leases) Superannuation Guarantee Determination Determination 2000. SGD 2000/1. Native Title (Right to Negotiate —Al- Sydney Airport Curfew Act—Dispensation ternative Provisions) (Queensland Laws granted under section 20—Dispensation about Exploration Permits) Determina- No. 7/00. tion 2000. Taxation Administration Act— Native Title (Right to Negotiate —Al- Notice under section 17C—Metropoli- ternative Provisions) (Queensland Laws tan Ambulance Service Royal Commis- about Exploration Permits for Alterna- sion, dated 1 June 2000. tive Provision Areas) Determination Regulations—Statutory Rules 2000 No. 2000. 73. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14623

Taxation Determination— Veterans’ Entitlements (Treatment TD 2000/23. Principles – Miscellaneous Varia- tions) Instrument No. 3/2000. TD 92/152 (Notice of Withdrawal) Veterans’ Entitlements (Treatment Taxation Ruling— Principles – Podiatry Variation) (Old Series) IT 2683 (Notice of With- Instrument No. 5/2000. drawal). 117—Veterans’ Children Education TR 97/17 (Addendum). Scheme (Goods and Services Tax Telecommunications Act— Compensation) Instrument No. 9/2000. Telecommunications (Annual Number- ing Charge —Late Payment Penalty) The following document was tabled pur- Determination 2000. suant to the order of the Senate of 30 May Telecommunications Numbering Plan 1996, as amended 3 December 1998: Amendment 2000 (No. 1). Indexed lists of departmental and agency Telecommunications (Numbering Charges) files for the period 1 July to 31 December Act—Telecommunications (Exemption 1999—Statements of compliance—Attor- from Annual Charge) Determination 2000. ney-General’s portfolio. Textile, Clothing and Footwear Strategic PROCLAMATIONS Investment Program Act—Textile, Clothing Proclamations by His Excellency the Gov- and Footwear Strategic Investment Pro- ernor-General were tabled, notifying that he gram Scheme Amendment 2000 (No. 1). had proclaimed the following Act and provi- Therapeutic Goods Act—Regulations— sions of an Act to come into operation on the Statutory Rules 2000 No. 70. dates specified: Therapeutic Goods (Charges) Act—Regu- Financial Sector Reform (Amendments and lations—Statutory Rules 2000 No. 71. Transitional Provisions) Act (No. 1) Veterans’ Entitlements Act— 2000—Items 3, 5, 8, 11, 12 and 13 of Determination under section 88A— Schedule 10—12 May 2000 (Gazette No. S 239, 10 May 2000). Veterans’ Entitlements Treatment (Residential Care) Determination Migration Legislation Amendment Act (No. 2/2000—Instrument No. 2/2000. 1) 2000—28 April 2000— Veterans’ Entitlements Treatment (a) Schedules 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8; (Unidentifiable Condition) Determi- (b) Part 1 of Schedule 5. nation 1/2000—Instrument No. (Gazette No. S 216, 28 April 2000). 1/2000. Privacy Amendment (Office of the Privacy Instrument under section— Commissioner) Act 2000—1 July 2000 90— (Gazette No. S 229, 5 May 2000). Veterans’ Entitlements (Treatment Principles – Amendment of Varia- tion) Instrument No. 6/2000. 14624 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE The following answers to questions were circulated: Magnetic Resonance Imaging: Medicare Rebates (Question No. 1650) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Aged Care, upon notice, on 29 September 1999: (1) On how many occasions did the Minister meet with the following people, either together, indi- vidually or in smaller groups, in the period between 1 October 1997 and 30 May 1998 to discuss the agreement on radiology and the extension of Medicare rebates to magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) equipment: (a) Dr Phillip Dubois, a radiologist of Queensland X-Ray Services; (b) Dr Peter Carr, a ra- diologist at North Shore Diagnostic Centre and Pittwater Radiology in Sydney; (c) Dr George Klempfner, a radiologist of Radclin Medical Imaging; (d) Dr Chris Atkinson, a radiologist with the Victorian Imaging Group; (e) Dr Martin, a radiologist with the Victorian Imaging Group; (f) Dr Chris Ingle, a radiologist in the practice of Kos, Ingle and Gordon; (g) Dr Donald Robertson, a radiologist of Geelong Radiological Clinic; (h) Dr Chris Harper, a radiologist of Perth Imaging Centre; and (i) Dr Sprague, a radiologist of Perth Radiological Clinic. (2) On how many occasions did officers from the department meet with the following people, either together, individually or in smaller groups, in the period between 1 October 1997 and 30 May 1998 to discuss the agreement on radiology and the extension of Medicare rebates to magnetic resonance imag- ing (MRI) equipment: (a) Dr Phillip Dubois, a radiologist of Queensland X-Ray Services; (b) Dr Peter Carr, a radiologist at North Shore Diagnostic Centre and Pittwater Radiology in Sydney; (c) Dr George Klempfner, a radiologist of Radclin Medical Imaging; (d) Dr Chris Atkinson, a radiologist with the Victorian Imaging Group; (e) Dr Martin, a radiologist with the Victorian Imaging Group; (f) Dr Chris Ingle, a radiologist in the practice of Kos, Ingle and Gordon; (g) Dr Donald Robertson, a radiologist of Geelong Radiological Clinic; (h) Dr Chris Harper, a radiologist of Perth Imaging Centre; and (i) Dr Sprague, a radiologist of Perth Radiological Clinic. Senator Herron—The Minister for Health and Aged Care has provided the following an- swer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) Departmental records show that, of the nominated persons, the Minister met with Dr Philip Du- bois on 10 March 1998, Dr Peter Carr on 6 May 1998, and Dr George Klempfner on 13 October 1997. (2)Departmental records show that officers from the Department met with the nominated persons on the indicated number of occasions: Dr Philip Dubois—7 times Dr Peter Carr—once Dr George Klempfner—3 times Magnetic Resonance Imaging: Task Force (Question No. 1651) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Aged Care, upon notice, on 29 September 1999: (1) Was Dr Phillip Dubios, a radiologist of Queensland X-Ray Services, the Chair of the magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) task force established by the Royal Australian an New Zealand College of Radiologists (RANZCR). (2) Was each of the following people a member of the MRI task force established by the RANZCR: (a) Dr Peter Carr, a radiologist at North Shore Diagnostic Centre and Pittwater Radiology in Sydney; (b) Dr George Klempfner, a radiologist of Radclin Medical Imaging; (c) Dr Chris Atkinson and Dr Martin, radiologists with the Victorian Imaging Group; (d) Dr Chris Ingle, a radiologist in the practice of Kos, Ingle and Gordon; (e) Dr Donald Robertson, a radiologist of Geelong Radiological Clinic; (f) Dr Chris Harper, a radiologist of Perth Imaging Centre; and (g) Dr Sprague, a radiologist of Perth Radiological Clinic. (3) Was each of the following people a member of the Executive of the RANZCR: Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14625

(a) Dr Chris Atkinson and Dr Martin, radiologists with the Victorian Imaging Group; (b) Dr Chris Ingle, a radiologist in the practice of Kos, Ingle and Gordon; (c) Dr Donald Robertson, a radiologist of Geelong Radiological Clinic; (d) Dr Chris Harper, a radiologist of Perth Imaging Centre; and (e) Dr Sprague, a radiologist of Perth Radiological Clinic. Senator Herron—The Minister for Health and Aged Care has provided the following an- swer to the honourable senator’s question: (1 and 2) The answer to this question has been provided previously in response to Question 131 of the Portfolio Additional Estimates hearings, 8 February 1999. (3) The RANZCR has advised that Dr Chris Atkinson and Dr Donald Robertson were members of the Executive Council of the RANZCR in the 12 months to October 1998. Australian National Estate: Mount Jerrabomberra (Question No. 1815) Senator Brown asked the Minister for the Environment and Heritage, upon notice, on 9 December 1999: (1) Does the Minister believe Australia's National Estate should be protected; if so, what steps are being taken to preserve Mount Jerrabomberra, in Queanbeyan, New South Wales. (2) Does the Minister support a proposal for the Federal Government to co-purchase parts of Mount Jerrabomberra, along with the New South Wales Government and the Queanbeyan City Council, in order that this heritage-listed site be preserved. (3) Given that the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999, which is likely to come into force in the middle of 2000, will enable the Minister to require that there is a recovery plan set in place for the threatened species on Mount Jerrabomberra, what will the Government do in the interim to protect the species on this mountain from further degradation. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) Entry of Mount Jerrabomberra as a place in the Register of the National Estate (RNE) is a way of publicly recognising its heritage values and its special significance to present and future Australians. Under Section 30 of the Australian Heritage Commission Act 1975, the Commonwealth Government is prohibited from taking any action which would adversely affect a place in the RNE, unless there are no feasible and prudent alternatives to the action. This provision sometimes affects the decisions of other government or business organisations where a Commonwealth decision is required. In this regard, the Commission has recently provided conservation advice to Queanbeyan City Council in relation to a Development Application by Cable & Wireless Optus for a telecommunications base station on Mount Jerrabomberra. (2) 1 am not aware of any application under the Natural Heritage Trust's National Reserve System Program to purchase parts of Mount Jerrabomberra. If an application was submitted it would be as- sessed by my Department as to its priority for inclusion in the National Reserve System in accordance with the NHT Guidelines and the Australian Guidelines for Establishing the National Reserve System. 1 would consider the Department's recommendation including the funding contributions from the other parties before reaching my decision. (3) 1 am aware of only one nationally threatened plant species that occurs at Mount Jerrabomberra. The recovery plan for the endangered button wrinklewort, Rutidosis leptorrynchoides was “administra- tively approve” under the Endangered Species Protection Act 1992 (ESP) on 22 May 1998. This recov- ery plan will need to be re-examined when the new Act comes into force to assess whether it complies with the requirements of the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act (EPBC). If the recovery plan complies then it will be adopted under the EPBC Act. The recovery plan refers specifically to “The Poplars”, a site on the west side of Mount Jerra- bomberra. According to the recovery plan: • NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS) has negotiated with Queanbeyan City Council (QCC) and the landowner of "The Poplars" to have the area supporting button wrinklewort rezoned for nature conservation. • Following rezoning, this site will be fenced to exclude stock. 14626 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

• QCC has prepared a draft plan of management for "The Poplars" site. As Mount Jerrabomberra is not Commonwealth land and no Commonwealth decision or action is in- volved, the ESP Act does not come into play and the Commonwealth Endangered Species Program is currently not funding any work on button wrinklewort. However, as the species is also listed as endan- gered under NSW threatened species legislation, approval of any development would require the con- sent of the Director NSW NPWS. Airservices Australia: Rescue and Firefighting Service Staff (Question No. 1848) Senator O’Brien asked the Minister representing the Minister for Transport and Regional Services, upon notice, on 20 December 1999: (1) What were the Airservices Australia rescue and firefighting service staffing levels between March 1998 and December 1999 as required under the enterprise agreement. (2) Over the above period: (a) what were the actual staff numbers; and (b) what were the minimum staff numbers, that is, the number of staff below which global staff numbers are not allowed to fall at any time. Senator Ian Macdonald—The Minister for Transport and Regional Services has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) (i) Airservices advises that Aviation Rescue and Fire Fighting (ARFF) service staffing levels for the period March 1998 to May 1998 were determined by the 1995 Enterprise Agreement. The staff levels for this period were as follows: Normal (1) - 595 Minimum (2) - 544 Normal staffing levels refers to the maximum staffing levels agreed to in the Enterprise Agreement (2) Minimum staffing levels are those required to meet CASA regulatory requirements and Interna- tional Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) standards and recommended practices. (ii) Airservices advises that the ARFF staffing levels for the period June 1998 to December 1999 were determined by the 1998 Certified Agreement. The Certified Agreement specifies the minimum staffing levels required to meet CASA regulatory requirements and ICAO standards and recommended practices for a category of service. The staffing levels for a particular category are detailed below: Category staffing levels per shift Airport Category (1) Number of Airport Fire Officers (2) Number of Airport Fire Fighters (2) Category 9 2 8 Category 8 2 5 Category 7 2 4 Category 6 1 4 Category 5 1 2 Airport Category refers to the level of ARFF service required for particular regular public transport aircraft types and numbers of aircraft movements through an airport The Certified Agreement provides for some extra staff at certain locations to meet specific require- ments and/or for non-aircraft related emergencies. (2) (a)Airservices advises that actual staff numbers for the period March 1998 to December 1999 were: 1998 Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Total 579 579 572 560 537 530 526 525 525 524 1999 Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Total 522 520 520 518 517 517 512 509 505 502 502 502 Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14627

(b) Airservices advises that minimum agreed “global” staffing number between March and June of 1998 was 544 as provided for in the Enterprise Agreement (see answer to 1 above). The Certified Agreement which commenced in late May 1998 does not contain global staffing numbers. Antarctica: Casey Base Quarry (Question No. 1995) Senator Brown asked the Minister for the Environment and Heritage, upon notice, on 6 March 2000: With reference to the quarry at Casey Base, Antarctica: (1) (a) What environmental impact assessment into the effect of the quarry has been carried out; and (b) by whom. (2) What effect will the quarry have on Snow Petrels and other wildlife in the vicinity. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1)(a) The Protocol on Environmental Protection to the Antarctic Treaty (Madrid Protocol) is given effect in Australian law by the Antarctic Treaty (Environment Protection) Act 1980. This Act does not apply retrospectively and, consistent with the Madrid Protocol, pre-existing activities do not require assessment of their impacts unless there is a change in the activity. Casey station quarry pre-dates the Act and on this basis did not require assessment. The Australian Antarctic Division (AAD) reviewed the operation of all of its quarry sites in 1996 and geographical limits were set on future extension of the quarry at Casey. A further review of the Casey quarry was completed in October 1999. The 1999 review recommended a number of measures to reduce the need for crushed rock and to move toward closure and rehabilitation of the existing quarry site at Casey. Assessment of and implementation of the recommendations of this report are currently underway. (2) Snow petrels breed successfully in the vicinity of the quarry at Casey. Detonations in the quarry are infrequent, strictly controlled and do not take place in the important snow petrel courtship-laying period. Snow petrels are the only wildlife present in the vicinity of the quarry and there is no indication that quarrying activities are affecting any other species. Snow petrels are a widespread and common species in Antarctica and are not recorded as being under threat over its range. Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu (Question No. 2002) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Employment, Work- place Relations and Small Business, upon notice, on 7 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm De- loitte Touche Tohmatsu in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu (open tender, short-list or some other process). Senator Alston—The Minister for Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: Department of Employment Workplace Relations and Small Business (1) In the 1998-99 financial year, the department awarded one contract to Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu. (2) (a)Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu were contracted to assist in the implementation of the department’s financial and human resource management system, SAP System R3. (b)The cost to the department of the contract was $999 558. (c)A request for tender was sent to SAP certified vendors. Australian Industrial Registry (1) Two contracts were provided to Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu in the 1998-99 financial year. 14628 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

(2) In the first contract: (a) Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu were engaged to: . specify AIRC/AIR requirements for a case management system . develop evaluation criteria and benchmarks for selection of a prime contractor . prepare a request for tender . prepare documentation of the proposed evaluation process (b) The cost in 1998-99 was $85 000. (c) Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu were selected following compilation of an Information Management and Technology Report by Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu in June 1998 which established a framework strategy for improving AIRC information management and technology systems. In the second contract: (a) Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu were engaged to conduct a gap analysis of a proposed case manage- ment system against AIRC/AIR functional requirements to identify where enhancements are required to meet AIRC case management requirements. (b) The cost in 1998-99 was $101 730. Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu were selected by open tender. COMCARE None Defence Force Remuneration Tribunal None Equal Opportunities for Women in the Workplace Agency None National Occupational Health and Safety Commission (1) Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu were provided two contracts in the 1998-99 financial year. (i)Business Planning; and (ii)Internal Audit. (a) (i)provision of business planning services; and (ii)provision of internal audit services over three years. (b) (i)Total amount committed is $80 900. (ii)Total amount committed is $139 050. (c) (i) & (ii)Both select tender, drawn from the Department of Finance and Administration’s ‘Panel of Competitive Tendering and Contracting (CTC)’ consultants. Office of the Employment Advocate None Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu (Question No. 2011) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, upon notice, on 6 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu (open tender, short-list, or some other process). Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1 and 2) There is no record of any contracts with the firm Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14629

Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with PricewaterhouseCoopers (Question No. 2021) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Employment, Work- place Relations and Small Business, upon notice, on 7 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm Price- waterhouseCoopers in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by PricewaterhouseCoopers; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select PricewaterhouseCoopers (open tender, short-list or some other process). Senator Alston—The Minister for Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: Department of Employment Workplace Relations and Small Business (1) In the 1998-99 financial year, the department awarded six contracts to PricewaterhouseCoopers. This included a purchase order for consultancy services issued on 28 August 1998 by the (then) De- partment of Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs (DEETYA) under Standing Offer Agreement 97/10148 dated February 1998, which formed a binding contract between the Common- wealth of Australia and PricewaterhouseCoopers. As a result of the Machinery of Government changes of 21 October 1998, this contract was transferred to the newly formed Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business (DEWRSB). (2) (a)Pricewaterhouse Coopers were contracted to streamline the processes which relate to the reg- istration, assessment and referral of job seekers to Job Network and covering the period from the initial contact with Centrelink to the initial contact with the Job Network member or relevant program. Also to cost the optimal or best practice processes using an agreed costing model and, as a priority, make recommendations about implementing optimal processes within the period of the current Service Ar- rangement (i.e. to June 1999) as well as recommendations for long term improvements. (b)The total cost to the department of this contract was $100 000. (c) The department invited submissions from a number of consultants from the Contact for Contracts (CTC) Panel established by the Department for Finance and Administration in 1998. Of those invited, three submissions were received and assessed by a panel comprising departmental and Centrelink repre- sentatives. (ii) (a)PricewaterhouseCoopers were contracted to develop an effective Management reporting capa- bility including: . developing management reporting formats which represent ‘Best Practice’; . developing processes and controls for preparing the management reports; . preparing the management reports for April, May and June 1999; and . re-implementing the department’s Financial Management system to support the reporting model. (b) The cost to the department of the contract totalled $227 625, of which $92 925 was paid in the 1998-1999 financial year with the remainder ($134 700) paid in the 1999-2000 financial year. (c) The department considered the procurement question on its merits and decided to select Price- waterhouseCoopers and avoid the costs of a more involved procurement process after considering: the corporate knowledge gained by PricewaterhouseCoopers in the preparation of the financial statements for the former DEETYA and former Department of Workplace Relations and Small Business (DWRSB) prior to the Administrative Arrangements Order change which created DEWRSB; and the potential benefits of a more involved procurement. (iii) (a) PricewaterhouseCoopers were contracted to prepare Financial statements for the department for the year ended 30 June 1999 including finalising financial details relating to the transfer of staff, assets and funds between the former DEETYA and DEWRSB. (b) The cost to the department of the contract was $173 100. (c) The department considered the procurement question on its merits and decided to select Price- waterhouseCoopers and avoid the costs of a more involved procurement process after considering: 14630 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

the corporate knowledge gained by PricewaterhouseCoopers in the preparation of the financial statements for the former DEETYA and DWRSB prior to the Administrative Arrangements Order change which created DEWRSB; and the potential benefits of a more involved procurement. (iv) (a) The remaining three contracts were for services relating to the implementation of the department’s financial and human resource management system, SAP System R3. (b) The cost to the department of the three contracts relating to the implementation of the SAP System R3 totalled $731 242. (c) For the three contracts relating to the implementation of the SAP System R3 a request for tender was sent to SAP certified vendors. Australian Industrial Registry None COMCARE None Defence Force Remuneration Tribunal None National Occupational Health and Safety Commission (1) PricewaterhouseCoopers had an ongoing contract which was awarded prior to the 1998-99 financial year. (a) Internal Auditing. (2) (a)Provision of internal audit services. (b) Total amount paid in 1998-99 was $17 155. (b) Select tender. Equal Opportunity for Women in the Workplace Agency None Office of the Employment Advocate (1) 1 contract (2) (a) Workflow improvements review of the processing of Australian workplace agreements (b) $65 721 (c) Open Tender Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with Pricewater- houseCoopers (Question No. 2030) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, upon notice, on 6 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm, Price- waterhouseCoopers in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by PricewaterhouseCoopers; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select PricewaterhouseCoopers (open tender, short-list, or some other process). Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1 and 2) The Department had the following contractual arrangements with the firm Pricewater- houseCoopers. PURPOSE OF WORK COST SELECTION PROCESS Provision of general accrual financial assistance or advice $47,000 Open tender process Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14631

Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with KPMG (Question No. 2040) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Employment, Work- place Relations and Small Business, upon notice, on 7 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm KPMG in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by KPMG; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select KPMG (open tender, short-list or some other process). Senator Alston—The Minister for Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: Department of Employment Workplace Relations and Small Business None Australian Industrial Registry (a) KPMG were engaged to conduct a financial management reform impact scoping study, in par- ticular evaluating the impact of accrual accounting; and assisted in preparing the Australian Industrial Registry’s 1999-2000 Portfolio Budget Statement. (b) The cost in 1998-99 was $24 935 (c) KPMG were selected from a list of preferred consultants recommended by the Department of Fi- nance and Administration. Comcare None Defence Force Remuneration Tribunal None Equal Opportunity for Women in the Workplace Agency None National Occupational Health and Safety Commission None Office of the Employment Advocate 2 contracts Contract 1 (a) Internal Audit Report and Update of business risk assessment (b) $50 770 (c) Select tender Contract 2 (a) Review of Budgeting and Financial reporting (b) $8000 (c) Quotation Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with KPMG (Question No. 2049) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, upon notice, on 6 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm KPMG in the 1998-99 financial year. 14632 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

(2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by KPMG; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select KPMG (open tender, short-list, or some other process). Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1&2) The Department had the following contractual arrangements with the firm KPMG. PAYMENT SELECTION PURPOSE OF WORK 98/99 PROCESS Audit advice during the development of the computer based $16,563 Select tendering finance and administration system for TIS (Translating and process Interpreting Service) Services provided in respect of the FBT tax return $5,320 Quotations sought; firm competitive Provision of training to Business Centre staff (NSW) on $3,600 Quotations sought; analysing/understanding business financial statements fol- firm competitive lowing introduction of accrual accounting Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with Arthur Anderson (Question No. 2059) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Employment, Work- place Relations and Small Business, upon notice, on 7 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm Arthur Andersen in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by Arthur Andersen; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select Arthur Andersen (open tender, short-list or some other process). Senator Alston—The Minister for Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: Department of Employment Workplace Relations and Small Business (1) In the 1998-99 financial year, the department awarded ten contracts to Arthur Anderson. (2) (i) (a) Six contracts were awarded for information technology maintenance services. (b) The cost to the department of the information technology maintenance contracts totalled $183 700. (c) For all six contracts a request for quote was sent to a restricted list of endorsed suppliers. (ii) (a) Four contracts were awarded for information technology application development services. (b) The cost of the information technology application development contracts totalled $175 921. (c) For all four contracts a request for quote was sent to a restricted list of endorsed suppliers. No contracts were awarded to Arthur Andersen by any agency of the department in 1998–99 Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with Arthur Andersen (Question No. 2068) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, upon notice, on 6 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm, Arthur Andersen in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by Arthur Andersen; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select Arthur Andersen (open tender, short-list, or some other process). Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14633

Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1 and 2) The Department had the following contractual arrangements with the firm Arthur Ander- sen. PAYMENT PURPOSE OF WORK 98/99 SELECTION PROCESS Provision of management and marketing $19,190 Selected under DOFA Deed of Standing advice in relation to implementation of the Offer (Agreement 97/10148) productive diversity partnership program Training for business skills case officers to $2,210 Training available in the time-frame assist in understanding and interpreting required from firm in Johannesburg evidentiary documentation tendered in support of business skills applications (Pretoria)

Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business: Contracts with Ernst and Young (Question No. 2078) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Employment, Work- place Relations and Small Business, upon notice, on 7 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm Ernst and Young in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by Ernst and Young; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select Ernst and Young (open tender, short-list or some other process). Senator Alston—The Minister for Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: The Department of Employment Workplace Relations and Small Business (1) In the 1998-99 financial year, the department awarded four contracts to Ernst and Young. (2) (i) (a) Ernst and Young were contracted to develop: . an initial framework for cash management and agency banking arrangements for the department; and . an implementation strategy for the cash management framework. (b) The cost to the department of the contract was $19 883. (c) The department considered the procurement question on its merits and decided to select Ernst and Young and avoid the costs of a more involved procurement process after considering: . the tight deadlines to implement agency banking arrangements; . the experience that Ernst and Young had gained in working with the Department of Finance and Administration on the Agency Banking Framework for the Commonwealth; . the costs of the contract; and . the potential benefits of a more involved procurement. (ii) (a) Ernst and Young were contracted to provide substantial on the ground support and expertise to assist with the implementation of cash management and banking arrangements in the department. (b) The cost to the department of the contract was $68 973. (c) The department considered the procurement question on its merits and decided to select Ernst and Young and avoid the costs of a more involved procurement process after considering: . the short time frames involved given the need was identified less than 3 months prior to the dead- line for project completion; 14634 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

. Ernst and Young had gained a detailed knowledge of the department’s circumstances and banking requirements through their work on the initial contract; . the costs of the contract; and . the potential benefits of a more involved procurement. (iii) (a) Ernst and Young were contracted to assist in the implementation of the department’s finan- cial and human resource management system, SAP System R3. (b) The cost to the department of the contract was $20 000. (c) A request for tender was sent to SAP certified vendors. (iv) (a) Ernst and Young were contracted to develop a Compliance Manual to assist franchisers and advisors complete a disclosure document associated with the Franchising Code of Conduct. (b) The cost to the department of this contract was $38 500. (c) The selection process used for Ernst and Young was that of limited tender. Three firms were in- vited to tender for this contract, KPMG, Ernst and Young and Coopers and Lybrand. The reason for using this process was the short timeframe in which to develop the manual following the introduction of the Franchising Code of Conduct on 1 July 1998. Australian Industrial Registry (a) Ernst and Young were engaged to undertake a Fraud Risk Assessment and complete a Fraud Control Plan. (b) The cost in 1998-99 was $18 002. (c) Ernst and Young were selected from a list of preferred consultants recommended by the Law En- forcement Coordination Division of the Attorney – General’s Department. No contracts were awarded to Ernst and Young by any other agency of the department in 1998-99 Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs: Contracts with Ernst and Young (Question No. 2087) Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, upon notice, on 6 March 2000: (1) What contracts has the department, or any agency of the department, provided to the firm Ernst and Young in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) In each instance: (a) what was the purpose of the work undertaken by Ernst and Young; (b) what has been the cost to the department of the contract; and (c) what selection process was used to select Ernst and Young (open tender, short-list, or some other process). Senator Vanstone—The Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1 and 2) The Department had the following contractual arrangements with the firm Ernst and Young. PAYMENT PURPOSE OF WORK 98/99 SELECTION PROCESS Internal audit services $653,893 Select tender Services in connection with the taxation af- fairs of the Department workplace relations advice $6,565 Selected as part of internal audit and other related services contract - conditions of service advice $4,000 Selected from DOFA’s CTC (Com- petitive Tendering Committee) panel

Submission to the ATO concerning the im- $5,000 Inter-agency submission, (efficien- pact of the proposed FBT reform cies in using the same firm). Se- lection made jointly by agencies Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14635

Antarctica: Australian Rubbish Clean-up (Question No. 2092) Senator Brown asked the Minister for the Environment and Heritage, upon notice, on 6 March 2000: With reference to the Madrid Protocol, which requires Australia to clean up its rubbish in Antarctica: (1) Does the Minister support the call made on 17 February 2000 by Senator Lightfoot, Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on the National Capital and External Territories, for the Madrid Protocol to be renegotiated so Australia can dump rubbish in Antarctica. (2) (a) What action has been taken to clean up rubbish and contamination at each of Australia’s bases; and (b) how much money has been spent in each of the past 5 years. (3) (a) What else is required for Australia to comply with the Madrid Protocol; and (b) what is the estimated cost. Senator Hill—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) No. (2) (a) The Madrid Protocol, as implemented in Australian law, states that removal of waste material should not be undertaken where its removal would result in a greater adverse environmental impact than leaving the waste material in its existing location. Australia is undertaking research at Casey to deter- mine the most appropriate methods for dealing with the old tip sites at its stations, to ensure that con- taminants in them are not further dispersed into the Antarctic environment. At Casey larger items of rubbish have been removed and returned to Australia for disposal. The re- maining smaller items of rubbish are mixed with local gravel and contaminated soil and for most of the year are frozen in permafrost which makes their removal very difficult. Removal and treatment of this material will be dependent on the outcome of the research, currently being undertaken, on clean-up and remediation procedures appropriate for Antarctica. The abandoned Wilkes station and associated tip have not previously been disturbed and are covered with snow and ice for most of the year. No attempt to clean-up this site will occur until appropriate procedures have been developed and tested at Casey. At Mawson the tip site was on rock and this has allowed the majority of the rubbish to be returned to Australia for disposal. In earlier years rubbish was dumped onto the sea ice and subsequently, when this melted, into the ocean. It is impractical to recover this material. This practice has been discontin- ued. At Davis the tip site is largely untouched, although the rubbish has been covered with soil to prevent it being blown into the surrounding environment. A contamination assessment of the site has been un- dertaken. Further management of this site is dependant on the outcome of current research at Casey. (b) It is not possible to provide an exact figure for the amount spent on clean-up operations in the past five years as many of the costs incurred, for example ship charter costs, large items of plant and personnel, are shared across a number of program areas. (3) (a) As a result of the research at Casey the Australian Antarctic Division is currently refining procedures for the clean-up of the remaining tip sites. Procedures which are potentially feasible include: excavation of frozen material to reduce the dispersion of contaminants by melt water; use of semi-permeable barriers to further prevent dispersion of contaminants; and in-situ bioremediation of contaminated soils using Antarctic micro-organisms to degrade contami- nants. (b) The Australian Antarctic Division has convened a task force to determine detailed costs for a range of clean up scenarios. The task force is due to report on its findings in May 2000. Worker Entitlement Provisions (Question No. 2095) Senator Brown asked the Minister representing the Minister for Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business, upon notice, on 7 March 2000: 14636 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

(1) Can a business put workers’ entitlements into a separate account, closed off from other company monies, week by week, without entailing a taxation penalty. (2) Is this money currently taxed as company profit. (3) What legislation would be required to alter this situation. (4) Will the Minister table legislation that not only enables but requires all companies to do this and remove any tax penalties that ensue. Senator Alston—The Minister for Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) I am advised that workers’ entitlements could be put into such an account without involving taxation penalties (2) I am advised that earnings on such an account would be taxed on the same basis as any other bank account held by the company. (3) The legislation required would depend on the intended alteration. (4) The Government has no present intention of requiring all companies to put workers’ entitlements into a separate account. The Government is continuing to seek the cooperation of the States in the Em- ployee Entitlements Support Scheme under which the States would contribute 50 per cent of the enti- tlements guaranteed under that scheme. Moran, Mr Mark: Employment (Question No. 2109) Senator Faulkner asked the Special Minister of State, upon notice, on 15 March 2000: (1) Was Mr Mark Moran employed by Mr Bob Woods, the former Member for Lowe, under the Members of Parliament (Staff) Act; if so, what were the commencement and termination dates for this employment. (2) (a) At what employment classification was Mr Moran employed; and (b) at what salary point. (3) (a) What was the total salary received by Mr Moran for this employment; and (b) can all the amounts be specified that were received for overtime claimed, any other salary allowances, and travel allowance claimed. (4) What duties did Mr Woods specify Mr Moran would be undertaking during this employment. (5) Is there any restriction on staff employed under the Act in regard to their receipt of salary in ad- dition to that received from the Commonwealth, for either full-time or part-time employment; if so: (a) what is the nature of that restriction; and (b) how is this restriction enforced. (6) Is there any restriction on staff employed under the Act in regard to their receipt of any remu- neration or consideration which could constitute a conflict of interest with their employment by the member of Parliament; if so: (a) what is the nature of that restriction; and (b) how is this restriction en- forced. (7) Is the Ministerial and Parliamentary Services Branch aware of whether Mr Moran disclosed to the Commonwealth or to his employing member of Parliament that he was in receipt of salary or remu- neration in addition to that received from the Commonwealth, or which may have constituted a conflict of interests; if so, what was the nature of the disclosure. Senator Ellison—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) No. (2) to (7) Not Applicable. East Timor: Australian Federal Police Deployment (Question No. 2112) Senator Bourne asked the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 17 March 2000: With reference to the deployment of Australian Federal Police (AFP) during the time of the popular consultation in East Timor: Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14637

(1) Are there any plans to recognise the outstanding service, in extremely hostile and difficult condi- tions, of the members of the AFP in East Timor, by way of a community reception or other mark of recognition. (2) Can the Minister comment on claims made: (a) that members of the AFP were involuntarily transferred to other AFP positions upon return to Australia; and (b) that some members returned to work on lesser terms and conditions upon their return to Australia; if so, what are the reasons for this occur- ring. (3) (a) Is the Minister aware that during the United Nations (UN) mission in Cambodia, the Austra- lian Government gave both the Australian Defence Force and the AFP tax-free status on their salaries; and (b) why is it that, in East Timor, the members of the AFP did not receive the same benefits as their defence colleagues, including tax-free salary allowances, free postage, access to home loan assistance and care packages. (4) Can the Minister comment on: (a) whether AFP members have now received their final payment from the UN of their outstanding mission subsistence; and (b) the reasons for the delay. (5) Can the Minister outline any plans to compensate members of the AFP who lost all their personal belongings when they had to evacuate East Timor on or around 4 and 5 September 1999. (6) (a) Can the Minister confirm that members of the AFP contingent were only paid a medium threat level for all but the last 2 weeks of the mission; (b) what is the criterion for assessing such a status; and (c) did the AFP consult with the AFP members in East Timor to establish what risks and danger they were actually experiencing. (7) With reference to the payment of the AFP members’ travel allowance, can the Minister confirm whether this allowance has now been paid; if the payment has not yet been made, can the Minister out- line what steps are being taken to remedy the problem and outline a timetable for resolution; if the pay- ment has been made, can the Minister detail why the delay has occurred and what steps are being taken to ensure that problems such as this do not arise in the future. Senator Vanstone—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) The AFP members who have served in East Timor have received media and public recognition of their service since their return, and have been praised by the Prime Minister, myself and other Members of Parliament. Members attended a reception at Parliament House which I hosted and which was at- tended by the Prime Minister and later at a function at the AFP College in Canberra I had the pleasure of presenting them with a Distinguished Service Award Certificate signed by Commissioner Mick Palmer. The Police Overseas medal/clasp is to be awarded to all members in recognition for their out- standing contribution to the ultimate independence of East Timor. Police members have also been included in public marches and celebrations conducted. (2) (a) On their return to Australia, all members but one were returned to their original positions. That one member was transferred to a different Region as a result of an application he submitted. I am advised that no members were involuntary transferred to other positions. (b) The conditions of members on their return were the same as those of all members of the AFP. No changes had occurred. (3) (a) Yes. AFP members and ADF personnel serving in East Timor received different entitlements due to the differing nature of their employment and deployment conditions. I am advised that AFP members re- ceived a range of allowances which compensated for conditions of their specific deployment including a mission allowance, commuted allowance for penalties and overtime payments and a UN mission sub- sistence allowance. The tax status is a matter the Government has under review. (4) (a) A number of members have yet to receive their final mission subsistence from the UN. The AFP has advised that members from later Detachments, including those who returned to Australia in November and February, have yet to receive final payments. (b) The reasons for the delay lie with the UN. I have been assured that every effort is being made by the AFP to expedite this issue. The AFP has also advised that in view of this delay by the UN arrange- ments are being made for members to submit their claims to the AFP for assessment and payment. 14638 SENATE Monday, 5 June 2000

(5) Members were instructed prior to departing Australia not to take valuable items of a personal nature with them, due to the possibility of loss or destruction. I am advised that all members have been paid $200 compensation and some claims are being pursued through the UN and/or the AFP. The Insur- ers are assessing these claims on behalf of the AFP. (6) (a) The mission allowance threat level was increased from medium to high with effect from the date of the ballot. (b) the threat level on which the mission allowance is based is determined having regard to a threat assessment provided independently by the Department of Defence. This process has been established to ensure a rigorous and objective assessment is available and has been used since 1994. (c) communications were maintained where practicable with the Detachment Commander. (7)Travel allowance has been paid in accordance with the AFP’s Overseas Conditions of Service. There was a delay as it was unclear when the UN mission subsistence allowance was to be paid and what period it covered. Child Disability Allowance: Families of Phenylketonuria Sufferers (Question No. 2128) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister for Family and Community Services, upon no- tice, on 4 April 2000: (1) How many families of children suffering from Phenylketonuria (PKU) were receiving the Child Disability Allowance prior to the introduction of the new assessment tool in July 1998. (2) How many families of children suffering from PKU are currently receiving the Carer Allowance. (3) What were the budgetary savings made as a result of removing this condition from automatic in- clusion. (4) How many applications for the Carer Allowance, from families of children suffering from PKU, have been received since the introduction of the new assessment tool in July 1998. (5) During the post implementation review of the Carer Payment for Profoundly Disabled Children and the evaluation of the Child Disability Assessment Tool, was consideration given to including PKU on the list of manifest conditions that give automatic entry to the allowance. Senator Newman—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) Information was not recorded prior to 1 July 1998 on Child Disability Allowance (CDA) custom- ers by disability or medical condition. (2) This information is not currently available. To extract the data requested from over 110 000 rec- ords would require significant effort and analysis. I am not prepared to authorise the expenditure of resources and effort that would be involved. My department is currently revising data and the way that it is broken down. From September 2000 data relating to Carer Allowance and children with PKU will be available. Carers of children with PKU who were in receipt of CDA prior to 1 July 1998, will continue to re- ceive the allowance until June 2003, unless their circumstances change. (3) For the reasons noted in my answer to question two, this information is not currently available. There was no intention in the development of the new administrative arrangements for the Carer Allow- ance program to exclude children with any particular disability or medical condition. (4) This information is not currently available. To undertake data collection for this item would be very expensive and is not warranted at this time. (5) Carer Payment for profoundly disabled children does not have a list of manifest conditions. The post implementation review of the measure to allow access to Carer Payment for those providing care for profoundly disabled children focused on how well the measure had succeeded in reaching its in- tended target group. The measure has been successful with projected customer numbers exceeded. The evaluation of the Child Disability Assessment Tool and the new assessment arrangements for Carer Allowance (child) by a reference group of experts, including paediatricians, was recently com- pleted. The scope of the evaluation included the operation and effectiveness of the assessment tool. The possible inclusion of conditions such as PKU on the list of manifest conditions that give automatic entry to the program was considered in the evaluation process. Monday, 5 June 2000 SENATE 14639

Disability Support Pension: Breach of Rules (Question No. 2131) Senator Chris Evans asked the Minister for Family and Community Services, upon no- tice, on 5 April 2000: With reference to the Disability Support Pension and the estimated $131 million the Government will recoup from social security recipients who breach welfare rules in the financial year 1999-2000: (1) How many people fined in the above period have been in receipt of a disability support pension. (2) How does that figure compare to those receiving other benefits. (3) (a) What were the main reasons the fines were being imposed; (b) what was the average amount of the fine imposed; and (c) how is the amount of the fine determined. (4) Can the department confirm that a social security recipient who failed to declare her full earnings, resulting in an overpayment of $51.70, was fined a massive $763.00. Senator Newman—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) None (2) Not applicable – see response (1) (3) Not applicable (4) Centrelink cannot confirm this as the customer’s details are not known.