Wednesday Volume 534 2 November 2011 No. 218

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 2 November 2011

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Mr Hurd: Community Service Volunteers is a great House of Commons organisation and it had a spectacularly successful day. The answer lies in trying to reduce some of the barriers, Wednesday 2 November 2011 such as the red tape that I mentioned, that stop people getting involved. It is also important to try to inspire The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock people to step up and get more involved. That is why we believe that programmes such as Community Organisers and Community First, which are about bringing PRAYERS communities together to identify what they want to change and inspiring them to work together to make [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] that change happen, can be a very powerful intervention.

BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Minister will be aware that this is national trustees week. Will he LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] address two particular concerns of that campaign? The (BY ORDER) first is that the number of young people being attracted Consideration of Bill, as amended, opposed and deferred to become trustees is very small indeed, and the other is until Tuesday 8 November (Standing Order No. 20). the fact that more than half of charities have at least one vacancy on their board of trustees. Mr Hurd: The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely Oral Answers to Questions important point. We all know the value and importance of the work of trustees and the ability of a really good set of trustees to transform the capability of a charity CABINET OFFICE or voluntary organisation. It is important that the Government will announce some steps to promote wider The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— awareness of the opportunity to take part in being a trustee. Community Projects Voluntary Sector 1. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con): What steps he is taking to encourage individuals 2. Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): What and organisations to engage in projects that benefit recent steps he has taken to support the voluntary their local community. [77750] sector. [77751] The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick 3. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): Hurd): Encouraging more social action is a key strand What steps he plans to take to support the voluntary of the big society vision, so we are looking at ways to sector. [77752] cut some of the red tape that gets in the way and are busy delivering programmes such as Community Organisers, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Community First, the national citizen service and the Hurd): I refer the hon. Members for Manchester Central social action fund. (Tony Lloyd) and for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) to the open letter to the voluntary sector, which was Stephen Metcalfe: I thank my hon. Friend for his sent to all MPs and published on the Cabinet Office answer. Will he expand on how these initiatives will website; it sets out our strategy for encouraging more impact on the residents of South Basildon and East social action and supporting civil society. Thurrock and on what they could hope to see from such great ideas in the future? Tony Lloyd: The Greater Manchester centre for voluntary organisation estimates that a quarter of those employed Mr Hurd: I thank my hon. Friend for his positive by voluntary organisations are losing their jobs in this reaction. I am aware that at least three wards, I think, in two-year period. Can the Minister honestly tell the his constituency are eligible for the Community First voluntary sector through the House that with that level grant programme. This is a fund designed to put money of cutbacks there really is a role for that sector? Volunteers into the hands of neighbourhood groups to help them need a structure in which to work. implement their own plans. It is focused on wards that blend high levels of deprivation with low levels of social Mr Hurd: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. capital, and I very much hope that he will engage We all have to recognise that there is less money around personally in supporting constituents in those wards to so some difficult choices have to be made. I simply refer maximise those particular opportunities. him to the statement made by his own leader to the BBC on Valentine’s day this year to the effect that he Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I declare an could not have protected the voluntary sector from interest as a trustee of Community Service Volunteers, local authority cuts. There is awareness of the challenge which had its Make a Difference day on Saturday last that we all face. I know that the sector in Manchester week, encouraging people to volunteer and make a has benefited from the transition fund and that a bid difference in their community. What steps will the has been put in to the infrastructure fund from the Government take to ensure that organisations such as organisations that support front-line organisations. Eighteen Community Service Volunteerscan reach out and encourage wards in the city of Manchester and 69 in Greater volunteers like Abbie, who is unemployed, to make a Manchester are eligible for the Community First grant difference by working in her local Marie Curie shop? programme. 907 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 908

Mr Brown: People in my constituency who are living Open Government Partnership with cancer and other long-term conditions desperately need benefits advice. It is currently provided by Macmillan 4. Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): What Cancer Support, Citizens Advice, Welfare Rights and assessment he has made of the potential role of the the Princess Royal Trust for Carers. I attended a meeting open government partnership in promoting openness with these groups on Monday morning. Let me tell the and transparency. [77753] Minister that they are under real pressure to find the financial wherewithal to go forward. Surely now is The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster the time to make sure that these organisations have the General (Mr Francis Maude): Transparency is an idea financial support that is required to provide quality whose time has come. It makes choice possible, it encourages benefits advice. accountability, and it can change lives. The United Kingdom Government are already the world leader in Mr Hurd: I could not agree more. When I visited my transparency, and the open government partnership local advice centre on Friday, I had a real sense of the will enable those huge benefits to be promoted to many strain and stress that its staff were experiencing. We other countries around the world. have set aside a further £20 million of special funding for advice centres. There is also to be a short review to Mr Clappison: The open government partnership is investigate what the Government can do to manage an interesting and exciting concept. Can my right hon. levels of demand on those working in that vital sector, Friend tell me what are the key UK transparency and how we can make life easier for them. commitments within it?

Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Does the Mr Maude: All the principles underlying the partnership Minister agree that voluntary groups set up by people reflect things that we have already introduced: openness who do what they do because they want to, and because about Government spending, openness about salaries, they have a lifetime of experience in the field—one openness about the internal workings of government, example is Home-Start in my constituency—often fulfil and an increase in the publication of outcome data their roles not only in a more cost-effective way, but about the way in which public services operate. We have better than others? said that commitment to and implementation of the principles of the open government partnership will Mr Hurd: Absolutely. Value is reflected in two ways, increasingly be a material factor in decisions by the in terms of cost and in terms of the effectiveness of the Department for International Development about where support that is given. In my experience, volunteer-led to place direct budget support for developing country organisations enjoy a different level of trust among the Governments. people whom they are trying to help. Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): In the interests Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Would the of open government, will the Minister agree to publish Minister welcome increased Government spending to all the credit card expenses of Ministers and officials enable the voluntary sector to deal with human trafficking? under the sum of £500 in all Departments, starting with If the money went through the Salvation Army, the big the Housing Minister? society could help all charities to look after victims. Mr Maude: It is good to hear the right hon. Gentleman being so enthusiastic about transparency. We have already Mr Hurd: My hon. Friend makes a good point, with published Government payment card data covering which I have a great deal of sympathy. transactions between April and August this year, and we will continue to do so. We will publish the data for Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): The 2010 and 2011, and Departments will also have the latest survey of charity leaders by the National Council option of publishing data for the previous year, when for Voluntary Organisations shows that 30% of them the last Government were in office. I look forward to expect to cut jobs in the next three months, and that enthusiastic support from the Labour party when the some 60% expect the economic situation, as it affects transactions made when it was in office are made public. such organisations, to deteriorate over the next 12 months. Given that voluntary sector capacity is being reduced, is Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I thank the Minister not the truth about the big society that, on the Minister’s for that response, and in particular for what he said watch, it is about to get smaller? about the last Government. I believe that the limit should be zero rather than £500, because we would not Mr Hurd: I dispute that. I remind the hon. Gentleman have known about the expenditure of the NHS on that the leader of his party told the BBC in February finger puppets if a higher limit had applied. that he would not make councils protect cash for voluntary groups. There is a hard economic reality here: a sector Mr Maude: My hon. Friend makes the purist case for that receives £13 billion of taxpayers’ money cannot be the disclosure of absolutely everything, but we have immune to the requirement to contribute to a reduction gone infinitely further than any Government have ever in Government borrowing. The challenge now is for us gone before in exposing the spending of Departments. to find a way of working together to mitigate the Of course we will keep that under review, but the first damage done to the voluntary sector in the short term, thing we need to do is complete the publication of the while preparing it for the real opportunities down the data on transactions below £500, including some that track to deliver more public services. took place under the last Government. 909 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 910

Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): Given the pride the taxpayers’ expense. There may be a case for some of this Minister obviously takes in transparency, is it not slightly continuing, but certainly not on the scale we inherited odd that his Department, which leads on these matters from the Labour party. for the whole Government, has the worst record in responding to freedom of information requests? Indeed, Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): But is some people might think that is almost fishy. Since there not also a point to be made about how much coming into office, the number of FOI requests answered money is saved to the public purse by having good on time by his Department has nosedived from 90% in industrial relations? Instead of going backwards, should March 2010 to only 42% in March this year. What do not the Minister be going forward and talking about they have to hide? Will the Minister now tell us when he how he could improve industrial relations? intends to get his house in order on FOI? Mr Maude: If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make Mr Maude: First, I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the case for why more and more taxpayers’ money his post and congratulate him on his elevation to the should be spent on subsidising union officials, let him shadow Cabinet. do so, and let him explain to his constituents why that is The Cabinet Office deals with FOI requests in respect good value when what they want is taxpayers’ money to of Cabinet papers under the last Government, and that be spent on front-line public services, on which the most takes some time to deal with because we need to consult vulnerable people in our society depend. former Ministers in that Government. Any FOI requests relating to the royal family also need to be dealt with Third Sector Contracts sensitively, with a lot of consultation. I notice that the hon. Gentleman does not raise the issue of Government 6. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): What procurement cards, and does not echo the response of recent progress he has made in increasing the number his colleague, the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael of central Government contracts secured by the third Dugher), who said, when we published these data, that sector. [77756] we had gone on a spending spree, when, in fact, we had cut spending under Government procurement cards by The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver 10% compared with the record of his party. Letwin): Since May 2010 there have been 702 purchase orders for third sector services by the Department of Trade Union Facility Time Health alone. There have also been 94 contracts with third sector organisations from five different Departments: 5. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What the cost to four from the Department for Culture, Media and the public purse was of the provision of trade union Sport, 21 from the Ministry of Justice, 15 from the facility time by Government Departments in the last Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, year for which figures are available. [77754] 47 from the Department for Work and Pensions and seven from the Department for Transport. Those The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster contracts have a total value of more than £488 million. General (Mr Francis Maude): Total spend on trade Unfortunately, I cannot say how that compares with the union facility time across the civil service is estimated to previous Government’s record as records were not kept be around £30 million a year, while in the public sector at that time. as a whole the estimate is £225 million. ACAS guidance suggests this system should be regularly reviewed. Strangely, Jonathan Ashworth: I am grateful to the Minister for we have not been able to find any evidence that it was that answer. In the last week, I met a voluntary third reviewed under the last Government. sector organisation in my constituency called Tolsam, which does a lot of valuable work with the young unemployed and those not in education, employment Karl McCartney: I thank my right hon. Friend for or training. Given the scale of the youth unemployment that very revealing answer. He will be aware of the problem our country now faces, will Ministers consider current scandal of public sector employees spending introducing a requirement that third sector organisations 100% of their time on union activities while still drawing that work with NEETs and the young employed are their publicly funded salary. My constituents in Lincoln favoured when awarding contracts? expect their thousands of pounds in taxes to be used to pay for public services, not union activities. This situation clearly does not— Mr Letwin: The hon. Gentleman, who I have discovered has a very honourable record of visiting social enterprises in his constituency, makes a good point. We do believe Mr Speaker: Order. What I want is a question—in that there is great merit in including in public sector one sentence, very briefly, now. contracting provisions that reflect social value and social outcomes. We are working on that and we intend to Karl McCartney: Will my right hon. Friend assure me proceed with it. that as part of any consultation or meeting, such as the one he had today, he will fully examine this scandal? Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The Government have launched the Contracts Finder website, Mr Maude: As I have said, we are going to consult on which enables third sector companies to find Government this. We will want to look very carefully at the phenomenon contracts. How does the Minister intend to assess how whereby large numbers of civil servants and other public successful that has been and will he publish figures to servants are engaged full time as union officials at the demonstrate whether or not it has worked? 911 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 912

Mr Letwin: My hon. Friend makes a good point. We are encouraging that and we are taking further steps have indeed launched the Contracts Finder website, and through Big Society Capital to promote the use of I did a bit of mystery shopping to check whether it was social impact bonds. Of course our payment-by-results possible to use it. I am glad to be able to tell the House systems also make use of social impact bonds. that it is a very useful thing. We have already received some feedback from businesses and third sector Head of the Civil Service organisations that have been on the website, and where we have had that feedback we have responded to it. We 8. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) will be looking at the overall effectiveness of the website (Con): What plans he has for the future of the role of in due course and reporting back to the House. the head of the civil service. [77759]

Social Enterprise The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude): The roles of Cabinet 7. Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): What Secretary and head of the civil service are very different steps he is taking to promote social enterprises. [77757] and were indeed separate roles until 1981. Following the announcement of the retirement of Sir Gus O’Donnell, The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver the role of head of the civil service will, once again, be Letwin): First, we now have Big Society Capital separated from the Cabinet Secretary role. The two established—the initial investment was made in the individual roles will be more focused, and people can be summer. Secondly, we are moving ahead with the appointed to each on the basis of the skills match to establishment of mutuals, with a new mutuals support each role. An internal competition is under way to programme; 45,000 staff are already in social enterprises recruit the post holder from among existing permanent in health care alone. Thirdly, we have promoted social secretaries. enterprise in the Work programme, with two social enterprises as prime providers and about 500 more Mr Speaker: We need to leave time for the question. voluntary sector organisations as subcontractors. Mr Jenkin: Change is the watchword of the Prime Julie Elliott: I thank the Minister for that answer. Minister and change in government is a vital ingredient Does he believe that the Government and local authorities of the Government’s reform programme. How will the should be developing strategies to promote social head of the civil service be able to lead and implement enterprises? If so, why has he axed the clauses that change if he does not have equal authority and equal would have made Departments do that from the private access to the centre of government as he does now? Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White)? Mr Maude: He or she will have equal access and will exercise a decisive role in leading the reform of the civil Mr Letwin: We do not feel that it is necessary to service so that we can create a genuinely modern, progressive legislate for strategies at a national and local level. The civil service that a modern Britain requires. previous Government specialised in having lots of strategies and fulfilling none of them. By contrast, we are in Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Is the Minister satisfied favour of taking action, which is why we are working that with the split of the new roles, the various questions with my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and of probity, propriety and procedure that were aired in Leamington (Chris White) to ensure, as I mentioned in the O’Donnell report on the Werritty affair will be answer to the previous question, that there is provision clearly brought to a known figure in the future, or will for social outcomes and social value to be measured in there be confusion? contracts. That is, of course, part of his Bill. [Interruption.] Mr Maude: We will make sure that those issues are Mr Speaker: Order. I am sure that when the Minister properly scrutinised, as they were on that occasion, and was conducting his philosophy seminars he had a rather that there are proper arrangements to ensure that that is more respectful and attentive audience, and that is what the case. we should grant him. Topical Questions Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Allia and Future Business are promoting social bonds to support social T1. [77765] Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) enterprises, such as the future business centre in my (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental constituency. There has been a very good uptake by responsibilities. individuals and companies, but not by the banks. Will the Minister have discussions with the banks to encourage The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster them to invest in these bonds, which provide a secure General (Mr Francis Maude): My responsibilities as social investment asset? Minister for the Cabinet Office are for the public sector efficiency and reform group, civil service issues, industrial Mr Letwin: We believe that social impact bonds have relations strategy in the public sector, Government an enormous role to play. The Parliamentary Secretary, transparency, civil contingencies, civil society and cyber- Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, security. Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), who has responsibility for the civil society, and I recently had a round table Katy Clark: The average pension for a woman retiring meeting with a group of social entrepreneurs and investors from the NHS is £3,000 and the average local government who are interested in investing in social enterprise. We pension is £4,000. Does the Minister accept that if we 913 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 914 increase the contributions for a worse pension, more T2. [77766] Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): people will simply opt out and we will end up paying Speaking of fewer jobs, the Public Bodies Bill scrapped more through the state benefits system? regional development agencies. My constituent, Mark Davenport, invested £6,000 setting up a business Mr Maude: It is in no one’s interest that public sector installing solar panels. At six weeks’ notice, the workers should opt out of pension schemes. The numbers investment made by thousands of businesses was wiped to which the hon. Lady refers do not in any way reflect out by a dramatic cut in the feed-in tariff scheme. Can the pension that people retire on after a full career. That the Minister explain to Mr Davenport how the is the average, including many people who serve relatively abolition of the RDAs and now the cut in feed-in short times in the public service. At the end of these tariffs is helping jobs and growth? reforms public sector pensions will still be among the very best available, much better than those available to The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver most people in the private sector, who have no chance of Letwin): What the hon. Gentleman needs to deal with is enjoying such pensions. [Interruption.] the fact that the regional development agencies in their time never managed to achieve what they set out to Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many noisy achieve and acquired vast liabilities—an astonishing private conversations taking place. The House will want achievement for development agencies. The solar tariffs to hear Stephen Mosley. had to be reduced because they were a disgrace and would have cast ill-repute on the whole of the very T3. [77769] Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): important programme that we have for supporting Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can the Minister update the renewables and feed-in tariffs in this country. House on the progress of negotiations with the trade unions on public sector pension reform? T5. [77771] Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): People in Edgworth in my constituency found out that Mr Maude: We have made progress and my right their bus service is being scrapped for want of £10,000, hon. Friend the Chief Secretary and I met the TUC although the local authority can still find almost again this morning. My right hon. Friend will make a £100,000 to support trade union activity. What action statement to the House later. As I said, our intention is will the Government take to end taxpayer-funded that public sector pensions will continue to be among activity within the public sector? the very best available, but fair both to public sector staff and to the general taxpayer, who has had to bear Mr Maude: I have already said what we are planning an increasing burden of the cost of paying for these to do in relation to the civil service. Obviously, local pensions in recent years. authorities must answer for their own affairs, but the guidance is that those arrangements should be reviewed Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): During last regularly. I urge my hon. Friend to put pressure on his week’s debate on the Public Bodies Bill, the Government local authority to explain how it justifies spending voted to scrap the role of the chief coroner, despite money that should be spent on front-line public services opposition from Opposition Members and from Back- supporting vulnerable people on subsidising trade union Bench Conservative Members as well. Responding, the activity instead. Royal British Legion said that it was “saddened that this opportunity to do the right thing by bereaved Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): What discussions Service families was not taken” has the Minister had with colleagues who are responsible by the Government. As we approach Remembrance for the Work programme about openness and transparency? Sunday, is it not time that the Government did the right They are yet to publish any performance data on the thing and listened to the Royal British Legion? programme. Moreover, they have banned Work programme providers from publishing their own performance data, Mr Maude: The hon. Gentleman will have heard as many of them would like to do. Ministers in the Ministry of Justice talking about this when we debated the matter last week, and I think they Mr Maude: All the indications are that the Work made a very good case for what the Government intend programme is a successful move, and I will make those to do. representations to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. We are generally the most T4. [77770] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Can my open Government ever. We lead the world in transparency right hon. Friend say how the British Government and have gone much further than the Government of compare with the French Government when it comes whom the right hon. Gentleman was a distinguished to the number of contracts they procure with domestic member ever dreamt of going. suppliers? T6. [77773] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Mr Maude: The procurement practice that we inherited Having heard the excellent news this week on the from the previous Government militates heavily against increase in apprenticeship places, which are up 50% to the interests of UK suppliers and UK jobs, especially 442,000, does my hon. Friend agree that the national when it comes to very large contracts. Both France and citizen service can also play a key role in helping our Germany, which do not operate protectionist regimes young people into work? and which obey the rules, give away fewer jobs to other countries. We are looking at this to see how we can The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick support UK suppliers in a way that the previous Hurd): Yes, because it helps them to develop the skills Government signally failed to do. that employers need. 915 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 916

PRIME MINISTER The Prime Minister: First, the problem with pre-scripted questions is that the right hon. Gentleman does not listen to the first answer. I did not actually in my first The Prime Minister was asked— answer blame the last Labour Government, but if he would like me to do so I can start right now, because it Engagements was the last Labour Government who left us the record debts and the record deficit, and it is this Government Q1. [77735] Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): If he who are having to deal with that. will list his official engagements for Wednesday 2 November. The right hon. Gentleman asks about the business growth fund. This is one of the schemes to ensure that The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning banks are lending, alongside the Merlin scheme, which I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others is actually seeing an increase in lending to small businesses. and, in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have That is the record we can be proud of—and something further such meetings later today. he did not achieve.

Mr Jones: With the average 60-year-old living 10 years Edward Miliband: We all know by now with this longer than in the 1970s, public sector pension reform is Prime Minister that when he blusters like that at the essential. Will the Prime Minister ensure that reform is Dispatch Box he is either too embarrassed to answer or fair for my constituents, both in terms of taxpayers and he does not know the answer, so let me help him. The public sector workers? business growth fund was announced nine months ago, it has five offices and 50 staff. How many investments? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important A grand total of two. It is becoming a pattern with this point, and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury will be Prime Minister: fanfare announcement then radio silence. making a full statement to the House. It seems to me to He said in March: be absolutely vital that we do something that is fair to “I’m going to watch those banks like a hawk and make sure both taxpayers and public sector workers. The cost of they deliver”. our public sector pensions system is up by a third in the So what is he going to do to get the business growth last decade. It is not fair to go on as we are, but the new fund moving? arrangements must be fair to people who work hard in the public sector and on whom we all rely. I can tell the The Prime Minister: These are the banks the right House that low and middle-income earners will actually hon. Gentleman completely failed to regulate year after get more from their public sector pensions, everyone year—[Interruption.] Yes, yes, and these—[Interruption.] will keep what they have built up so far, anyone within Mr Speaker: Order. The House is getting—[Interruption.] 10 years of retirement will see no change to their Order. Mr Ronnie Campbell, calm yourself. The House pension arrangements and, at the end of all this, people is getting far too excited. It is only six minutes past— in the public sector will still get far better pensions than [Interruption.] Order. Let me say it at the outset: both people in the private sector. I really think it is time that the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition the Labour party was clear that it does not support must be heard. It is called democracy and free expression. strikes later this month. The Prime Minister: Let me just give the right hon. Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Does the Gentleman the figures for what has happened under the Prime Minister believe that growth of 0.5% over the last bank lending schemes of this Government. We have year and unemployment at a 17-year high point to the £190 billion of new credit this year, up from £179 billion success or failure of his economic plan? last year. That is a huge increase. There is £76 billion for small and medium-sized enterprises, up 15% on last The Prime Minister: Obviously, everybody wants the year. We are seeing more bank lending under this British economy to grow faster—that is what everybody Government, but we are seeing also the bank levy, so wants. Yesterday’s figure of 0.5% was better than many people in the banks are helping to pay to deal with the people expected and is it not noticeable that the right deficit that his Government created. hon. Gentleman cannot even bring himself to welcome news like that? The key issue we all have to address is Edward Miliband: A totally hopeless answer. One of this: there is a global storm in the world economy today his own schemes, the business growth fund—they trumpeted and it is in our interests to help others to confront that the announcements, and they have not got a clue what is global storm, but we must also keep the British economy happening to their own scheme. safe. We will not keep it safe if we add to our deficit, add Businesses are struggling, but one group in our economy to our debt and put interest rates at risk. is doing very well, indeed. Over the past year, when many people have seen their wages frozen, directors’ Edward Miliband: First the right hon. Gentleman pay has risen by 49%. The Prime Minister expressed blamed the Labour Government, then he blamed Europe, concern about that last Friday, but the public want to and yesterday he apparently blamed his Cabinet colleagues know: what is he going to do about it? for the lack of growth in our economy. The truth about this Prime Minister is that when things go wrong it is The Prime Minister: Let me tell you exactly what we never anything to do with him. are doing about it, and will do about it. It is this Let me ask about another of his flagship policies, the Government who introduced the bank levy—more raised business growth fund, which was launched nine months in one year than the bonus tax that the previous ago with the banks. Can he tell us the number of Government created; it is this Government who have businesses the fund has invested in? increased the fees that non-doms have to pay; it is this 917 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 918

Government who have had an agreement with Switzerland are being pilfered of their lead and copper and, in the and Liechtenstein to get hold of people who put money past month, one churchyard in Huddersfield has had overseas; and it is this Government who have actually 169 memorial plaques stolen for their metal. Will the seen lower bank bonuses. But, where I agree with the Prime Minister join me in saying that now is the time to right hon. Gentleman is that I think the Archbishop of legislate to stop those stolen metals going to Canterbury speaks, frankly, for the whole country when merchants? he says that it is unacceptable in a time of difficulty when people at the top of our society are not showing The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely signs of responsibility. It is this Government who are important point. The theft of metal, particularly from consulting on proper measures to make sure we get war memorials, is an absolutely sickening and disgusting transparency in terms of boardroom pay, proper crime. We are working with the Association of Chief accountability and more power for shareholders. All Police Officers to put in place an action plan to deal those things we are doing, and I have to ask the right with this, which will involve looking again at the whole hon. Gentleman, if he is so keen on this agenda, what regulation of scrap metal dealers. We are determined to did he do for the past 13 years? do that to put a stop to this appalling crime. Edward Miliband: I will tell you what we did, Mr Speaker. We introduced the 50p rate of income tax that the Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): People in my Prime Minister and his Chancellor want to abolish, but constituency and right across the country are desperately I am glad that we agree that something needs to be done worried about the increasing cost of gas, electricity and about top pay. Now, last—[Interruption.] Conservative home heating oil and about how they are going to keep Members should just calm down. Follow the Prime their home warm this winter. What more can the Prime Minister’s advice: just calm down. Last March, his fair Minister tell the country he is going to do to help people pay review, which he set up, recommended that the in that situation? In particular, will he reverse the cuts to Government require by January 2012—so January next winter fuel allowance that hit senior citizens? Surely, it year—that every top company publish how much the is not good enough simply to say that he is following the highest earners get paid compared with the average Opposition’s plans—he has done so many things differently earner. That type of transparency is the least we should from the Opposition, so why does he not do something expect. Can he confirm that this will happen from different on the winter fuel allowance? January 2012? Yes or no? The Prime Minister: On the winter fuel allowance we The Prime Minister: What he will know is that unlike have kept the plans that were set out by the previous the previous Government, who did absolutely nothing, Government and I think that is the right thing to do. On we are consulting on a whole series of steps to bring the cold weather payments, we have taken the increase responsibility to the boardroom. I have to say that we that was meant for one year and maintained it, so if are a little wary about accepting lectures from a party there is a particularly cold winter, people will be getting that told us it was intensely relaxed about everyone that help. The other step we are taking is making sure getting filthy rich—a party that had a capital gains tax that energy companies give people proper information system so that people in the City paid less tax than their about the lowest tariffs they can get and that we have cleaner. I know he has forgotten all these things but we proper reform of the energy market—something that remember them and we have done something about it. the Labour party has now suddenly started to talk about but did absolutely nothing about in government. Edward Miliband: Another report to Government; another failure to act. The truth is that the Prime Minister has sat on Will Hutton’s review for the past Q3. [77737] Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): nine months and has done nothing about it. That is why Public sector pension reform should be achieved the recommendation is not going to be implemented. through negotiation and compromise. Does the Prime That is the truth about this Prime Minister: he says we Minister agree that it is wholly irresponsible and are all in it together but he lets the top 1% get away with downright destructive for senior politicians of any it while the other 99% see their living standards squeezed political party to support strike action while and lose their jobs. That is why people are increasingly negotiations are ongoing? saying that this is a Prime Minister who is totally out of touch with their lives. The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend is entirely right. It is a very fair offer to hard-working public The Prime Minister: Ihavetosaythatintheweek servants to say, “This is a strong set of pension reforms when the Labour party has hired a former tax exile to that will give you pensions that are still better than run their election campaign, the right hon. Gentleman anything available in the private sector.” Frankly, to has got a bit of nerve to come and lecture us on that. have a Labour Front-Bench team who are silent on this Labour had 13 years to regulate the banks but did issue, with their education spokesman actually encouraging nothing. It had 13 years to deal with bank bonuses but teachers to strike, is the height of irresponsibility. did nothing. Now it is in opposition, its message to business is, “Give us some money—you can run our election.” Q4. [77738] Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): My constituents Alan and Linda Eastwood have a son Q2. [77736] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): who has been serving in our nation’s armed forces in Cable theft has cost the rail industry £43 million in the Afghanistan. In common with the Royal British past three years and Gurkhas have even been drafted in Legion, Mr and Mrs Eastwood regard the Prime to patrol the network. Meanwhile, homes and churches Minister’s decision to abolish the post of chief coroner 919 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 920 as a betrayal. Will the Prime Minister tell us why he a proper write-down of Greek debt, which must be part thinks he is right on this issue and the Royal British of the solution, and a proper recapitalisation of Europe’s Legion is wrong? banks done to a credible test, rather than the incredible test we have had in months gone by. The Prime Minister: This is a very important issue, The final element that the right hon. Gentleman and I have had discussions with the Royal British Legion rightly refers to—and which needs to have more detail about it, as has my right hon. and learned Friend the and substance added—is to make sure there is a proper Lord Chancellor. The point about it is that the current firewall to stop contagion in the eurozone. The need has proposal for the office of chief coroner to be established become even greater. Frankly, of course we cannot would involve something like £10 million of spending, involve ourselves in Greek domestic politics, but it has and we think the money would be better spent on become even more urgent to put meat on the bones of improving all coroners’ services across the country. We these plans to show that we are removing one of the key are listening very carefully to the concerns expressed in obstacles to global growth, which is the failure to agree both Houses of Parliament about this issue, but what a proper plan to deal with problems in the eurozone. really matters is: are we going to improve the performance of our coroners? That is what service families want; that Q6. [77740] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): is what I want; and that is what we will deliver. According to the Government’s own projections, Britain’s population is set to increase from 62 million Q5. [77739] Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): Public sector workers in my constituency work today to 70 million by 2027, with two thirds of that extremely hard to deliver essential public services, and I increase being driven by immigration. Will the Prime know that my right hon. Friend agrees that we value Minister give a commitment to stem that increase by those services tremendously. Will he reassure those breaking the almost automatic link between foreign workers and confirm that the Government’s reforms— nationals who come to work here subsequently being very necessary reforms that they are—will ensure that granted citizenship? those services are sustainable and remain among the The Prime Minister: We are committed to doing very best? exactly that, and my hon. Friend is right to raise this The Prime Minister: I will certainly do that. My hon. issue. I think that proper immigration control and welfare Friend makes an important point. The cost of supporting reform are two sides of the same coin, and this Government public sector pensions has gone up by one third in the are committed to controlling immigration properly, but last decade, and we are now spending something like also to putting British people back to work. The two £32 billion. They are a major item of public spending, work together. and obviously we are taking taxes off people, including Today, we have announced that, in terms of the those in the private sector who have less good pensions, illegal immigration that comes through the student to pay for that pension provision. route, more than 450 colleges will no longer be able to I believe that our scheme is fair. For example, a sponsor new international students, because they were teacher retiring on a salary of £37,000 after a full career not properly established to do that. Those colleges would retire on a pension of £25,000 in future. That is could have brought in more than 11,000 students to the more than the £19,000 that they would currently get. UK to study each year. That is just one example of how This is a fair set of changes. The less well-off are really this Government are living up to their promise to get a protected, and the low paid in the public sector will not grip of immigration. have to pay the increased contributions. Frankly, I think the whole House of Commons should get behind them Q7. [77741] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): instead of playing with strike action like the Labour Does the Prime Minister agree with the vast majority party. of people that smoking should be banned in vehicles when children are present, and will he encourage the Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): Government to adopt the contents of my ten-minute When the Prime Minister goes to the G20 meeting over rule Bill, which aims to put an end to it? the next couple of days, will he try to persuade his colleagues of the urgency of coming up with some The Prime Minister: I do think the smoking ban is detail on the eurozone settlement reached last week? It right. I have to admit, as a former smoker, and someone is not at all clear how on earth Greece will get out of its who believes strongly in liberties and who did not difficulties, even if the referendum passes. European support it at the time, that the smoking ban has worked, banks will need shoring up well before next summer, and I think it is successful. I am much more nervous and as for the new rescue fund, which may be needed about going into what people do inside a vehicle. I will sooner than we think, it does not actually exist. Will he look carefully at what the hon. Gentleman says, but we accept that the G20 now needs to show the same have to have a serious think before we take that step. urgency and sense of purpose that it showed two years ago when it met in London? Otherwise, far from getting Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): The Prime ahead of events, Governments will be condemned to Minister will be aware of Citigroup’s report, issued being dragged along in their wake. yesterday, on green energy investment in Scotland. Does he agree that this report very ably demonstrates that the The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is benefits of green energy in the UK are unlocked only by absolutely right in what he says about the urgency of combining Scotland’s renewable potential with the large- the G20 meeting, and the necessity of its agenda. I scale investment made possible by the UK; and does he think some progress was made at the European Council agree that a drawn-out independence referendum is a meeting a week ago when, for the first time, it accepted serious distraction from that? 921 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 922

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important Q10. [77744] Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old point. In fact, a major financial institution warned Southwark) (LD): Following the Prime Minister’s yesterday of the dangers of investing in Scotland while answers a moment ago, and given the huge anger about there is this uncertainty about the future of the constitution the pay for the top 100 directors, can he give me a under way. I think it is very important that we keep our personal assurance that he is committed to the transfer United Kingdom together and we stress that when it of power over pay from the boardroom to the comes to vital industries like green technology, the shareholders of our companies? combination of a green investment bank sponsored by the United Kingdom Government and the many natural The Prime Minister: I do want to see that happen. advantages that there are in Scotland can make this a The answer to this is much more transparency about the great industry for people in Scotland—but we will do levels of pay, much more accountability, and strengthening that only if we keep our country together. the hand of shareholders. There is something else we need to do, which is to make sure that non-executive Q8. [77742] Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) directors on boards are not the usual sort of rotating (Lab): Just after the election, the Prime Minister said list of men patting each other’s backs and increasing the that his Government would be the greenest ever. Does level of remuneration. I want to see more women in he still take that statement seriously? If he does, will he Britain’s boardrooms, which I think would have a personally intervene to sort out the appalling chaos thoroughly good influence. that is resulting from the slashing, in six weeks’ time, of feed-in tariffs for solar PV, leading to substantial job Q11. [77745] Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): losses, chaos in the solar PV industry, and devastation The—[Interruption.] for hundreds of community renewables projects? Mr Speaker: Order. The House must calm down. I The Prime Minister: It is this Government who set want to hear Mr David Lammy. aside £3 billion for a green investment bank, much talked about in the past but never done. It is this Mr Lammy: The Prime Minister has described his Government who have put in place a carbon price Work programme as the biggest back-to-work programme floor—one of the first Governments anywhere in the since the 1930s, but he knows that it does not create world to do so. It is us who put aside £1 billion for jobs—it merely links people to vacancies. In Tottenham, carbon capture and storage. So this is a very green there are 6,500 people unemployed, 28,000 people on Government living up to our promises—absolutely right. out-of-work benefits, and only 150 vacancies. What is his Work programme going to do about that? Q9. [77743] Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating the pupils The Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman and staff at Whitchurch high school, a foundation- says, the Work programme plays a key role in helping to status comprehensive school in my constituency? It is prepare people for work. That is absolutely vital. It also the former school of Sam Warburton, the outstanding brings employers in, so that they can offer jobs to those Welsh rugby captain; Gareth Bale, the impressive people. I have looked specifically at the issue of Tottenham, footballer at Spurs and Wales; and Geraint Thomas, because I know from when I visited his constituency the gold medallist. It will be receiving the award for with him that, yes of course, there is a shortage of state school of the year for sports— vacancies in the borough of Tottenham itself, but we have to encourage people who live in London to be Mr Speaker: Order. We get the drift of the hon. prepared to travel more widely to look for work. That is Gentleman’s question. absolutely vital, and part of the Work programme should be aimed at addressing exactly that. The Prime Minister: Ihavetosaythatthatisavery impressive list of sports personalities who have attended Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): this school; I do not know what they put in the water, Rural fire services attend more primary fires and more but I think we would probably all like to have some. I road traffic accidents than do those in urban areas, yet certainly join my hon. Friend in congratulating such an they receive less funding. This is typical of rural services excellent school. across the piece, with residents paying more and receiving less. Will the Prime Minister meet me and a group of Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): In other MPs from across the House who represent rural the past four years, six children and two adults have areas, to discuss getting a fairer deal for those in rural been killed in dog attacks, and some 6,000 postal workers areas, particularly the rural poor? are attacked each year. There is cross-party agreement that we need to tighten up the law in this area. Will The Prime Minister: I am very happy to meet my hon. the Prime Minister take a personal interest and make Friend. It is important that we have a fair deal for rural sure that legislation is brought forward as soon as areas. There are obviously very big differences, particularly possible? in the use of retained firefighters, but I am happy to meet him to discuss the issue. The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady makes an important point. Legislative attempts at this in the past Q12. [77746] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth have not always been successful and have not always and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The Prime Minister captured the breeds that need to be captured, so I will knows, thanks to the Leader of the Opposition, that in certainly take a personal interest, and perhaps I can nine months, the Government’s business growth fund write to the hon. Lady and set out what the Government has invested in precisely two companies. At a time intend to do. when the economy is flatlining, is that good enough? 923 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 924

The Prime Minister: What this Government have digress. As well as the extra investment in the schools done is cut corporation tax for every business in the budget, there is also the opportunity for free schools, country. We have introduced enterprise zones to help which I think are going to be a major reform in our employment, and increased the number of apprenticeships country, to bring in more good school places. Perhaps by 250,000 over the life of this Parliament. The Opposition when a future shadow Chancellor attends one of those criticise the regional growth fund, but there was no schools, he will learn a few manners. [Interruption.] regional growth fund under Labour. That is the point. Let me just remind them that we inherited an economy Mr Speaker: Order. Some people are going to burst with the biggest budget deficit in Europe, and it is this they are getting so excited, which is a bit of a shame—and Government who are helping our economy through the a bit problem for them. international storms to ensure that we remain safe in the UK. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Will the Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): This week is national Prime Minister listen to both the campaigners outside adoption week. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Parliament today and the 80,000 people who have written we must continue to do all that we can to support to him in recent weeks, and commit to becoming a children in the care system, and to encourage prospective leading advocate for the introduction of a Robin Hood adoptive parents to come forward? tax at the G20 summit later this week? Will he ensure that the revenue is earmarked to tackle sustainable The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely development and the growing climate crisis? important point. In national adoption week, we really need more parents to come forward as potential adopters The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady knows, there is and potential foster carers, because there is a huge widespread support for the principles behind such a build-up of children in the care system who will not get tax, but it must be adopted on a global basis. Let me say that help unless people come forward. It is also important this as quite an important warning to those who are that the Government pledge that we will make the pushing so hard for such a tax: we must be careful that process of adoption and fostering simpler. It has become we do not allow other countries, including some European too bureaucratic and difficult, and the result is that it is countries, to use a campaign for the tax, which they putting people off. I am absolutely determined that we know is unlikely to be adopted in the short term, as an crack this. It is a matter of national shame that, while excuse for getting out of their aid commitments. The there are 3,660 children under the age of one in the care House and the country can be proud of the fact that we system, there were only 60 adoptions last year. We are are meeting our aid commitments. Do not let others use now publishing information on every single council, so the tax as a way getting out of things that they promised. that people can see how we are doing in terms of driving this vital agenda. Q15. [77749] Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): The world population passed 7 billion this week. Q13. [77747] Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West That is an awful lot of mouths to feed. In addition, the Fife) (Lab): This week, yet another military academic UN predicts that over the next 40 years, world demand has called for the reopening of the defence review, and for food will increase by 70%. That ought to be good a leading military think-tank has said: news for farmers, but sadly, since 1990, Britain’s “Britain is now cutting military equipment that might prove capacity to feed itself has fallen by a fifth. Does the vital in future.” Prime Minister agree that that is a disastrous situation, Will the Prime Minister finally listen to the voices of the and will he urgently introduce a credible strategy to defence community and reopen his deeply flawed defence grow Britain’s farming industry to feed us all in future? review? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important The Prime Minister: We had no defence review for point. It is true that we have seen our food security 10 years, and now the Opposition want two in one go. decline and our food production severely challenged That is absolutely typical of the opportunism of the over the past 10 years. It is important to remember that Labour party. This is a day, as hostilities in Libya are farmers are businesses. They need things done like other coming to an end, on which we should be praising our businesses do on deregulation, predictable income and armed services and all that they have done. all those things. This Government are committed to making that happen, which will benefit particularly Q14. [77748] Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Schools people in my hon. Friend’s constituency. in rural Northumberland were largely ignored by the previous Government. With the schools budget rising from £35 billion to £39 billion in 2015, will the Prime Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): On Minister welcome the finance bid put forward by 13 September 2010 at the Select Committee on Prudhoe community high school in my constituency? Communities and Local Government, when asked whether success for this Government will mean building more homes per year than were being built prior to the The Prime Minister: I will certainly welcome that bid. recession, the Minister for Housing and Local Government It is important to note that, because we are protecting replied: the per-pupil funding, even at a difficult time for the economy and public spending, the education budget “Yes. Building more homes is the gold standard upon which we will be rising and not falling—[Interruption.] As ever, shall be judged.” the shadow Chancellor is wrong, even when he is sitting In which year or years of this Parliament does the down. He talks even more rubbish when he stands up. I Prime Minister expect that gold standard to be achieved? 925 Oral Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 926

The Prime Minister: What we have said is that we are we did not have a proper plan for getting on top of our going to expand the building of homes for social rent by debts and our deficit, we would not have 2.5% interest increasing and reintroducing the right to buy, which the rates, which are the greatest stimulus our economy previous Government so scandalously ran down. That could have. Instead, we would have interest rates like will help. We will also make available Government land, those of the Greeks, the Spanish and the Italians, and so that builders can get on and build without having to our economy would be hit. Do you know how you get buy that land. They will have to pay only when they interest rates like that? You get them if you adopt the have actually delivered the house. We want to see an plans of the Labour party. Its plan is for an extra extra 200,000 homes built in that way, which will give us £87 billion of borrowing over this Parliament. You do a far better record than that of the Government whom not solve a debt crisis by adding to your debts— the hon. Gentleman represented. [Interruption.] The shadow Chancellor can go on making his rather questionable salutes, but it is time for him to Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): take a primer. Notwithstanding the increasingly maniacal gesticulations of the shadow Chancellor, is it not remarkable that in the middle of the world’s biggest crisis, Britain is able to Mr Speaker: Order. I appeal to right hon. and hon. borrow at lower rates of interest than almost any other Members who are leaving the Chamber, who unaccountably country in the world? do not wish to remain for the statement, to do so The Prime Minister: As ever, it takes the Father of the quickly and quietly, so that the rest of us can listen House to bring the wisdom to the table, which is that if attentively to the Chief Secretary. 927 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 928

Public Service Pensions at least as good as the amount that they receive now. Secondly, the taxpayer needs to be properly protected from the risks associated with further increases in life 12.34 pm expectancy, by linking the scheme normal pension age The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): to state pension age. I wish to update the House on progress in the reform of In early October, we set cost ceilings to meet those public service pensions and to set out the new offer that tests. Those cost ceilings are based on Lord Hutton’s we have made as we seek to bring this issue to a recommendations and generate an accrual rate of 1/65th conclusion by the end of the year. Our objective is to for the new schemes. Scheme-by-scheme discussions put in place new schemes that are affordable and fair for have been taking place on that basis since the beginning taxpayers and public service workers, and that can be of October. Although the talks have been productive, sustained for decades to come. That is not easy, but it is trade unions and Ministers have given consistent feedback the right thing to do and I recognise that this is a about what they think needs to change. Last week, the contentious area. Minister for the Cabinet Office and I met the TUC Public service workers deserve a good pension in negotiating team, who pressed for a more generous cost retirement as a fair reward for a lifetime spent serving ceiling and explicit protections for those workers nearest the public. That is why in June last year, the Chancellor to retirement. I have received similar feedback from the commissioned Lord Hutton, the Secretary of State for Secretary of State for Education and the Secretary of Work and Pensions in the previous Government, to State for Health. take an impartial, dispassionate look at this issue and to Having listened to those views, I have decided to bring forward proposals for reform. His landmark report revise the Government’s offer. Cabinet discussed these has set the terms of the debate and I am sure that the matters yesterday, and I met the TUC this morning to whole House will share my gratitude for his work. set out the terms of our new offer. The offer increases Lord Hutton’s interim report found that there was a the cost ceiling and provides for generous transitional clear justification, based on the past cost increases arrangements for those closest to retirement. I have borne by the taxpayer, for an increase in member made available to Members today a document that sets contributions. We accepted that recommendation, and out the detail. This generous offer should be more than increases in member contributions will take place starting sufficient to allow agreement to be reached with the next year, although next year’s increase merely reflects unions, but it is conditional upon agreement being the increase already planned by the previous Government. reached. I hope that on the basis of this offer, the trade In his final report, he set out a blueprint for a new unions will devote their energy to reaching agreement landscape of public service pensions based on retaining and not to unnecessary and damaging strike action. In defined benefit schemes, but moving to a fairer career that way, the offer can inform the scheme-by-scheme average basis, and increasing the retirement age in line talks that will continue until the end of the year. Of with the state pension age to protect the taxpayer against course, if agreement cannot be reached, we may need to future increases in life expectancy. revisit our proposals and consider whether the We accepted Lord Hutton’s recommendations in full enhancements remain appropriate. as a basis for consultation and we have been discussing I can announce today that I have decided to offer an the recommendations with the trade unions. Those increase to the cost ceiling. Future schemes will now be discussions started in February and are still going on. based on a pension to the value of l/60th of average Despite some of the public comment, significant progress salary, accruing for each year worked. That is an 8% has been made. I pay tribute to the Minister for the increase on the previous offer. I will give the House Cabinet Office and the general secretary of the TUC for some examples of what that means. A teacher with a their tireless work to reach common ground on reform. lifetime in public service and a salary at retirement of The trade unions have welcomed many of the £37,800 would receive £25,200 each year under these commitments that we made at the start of this process, proposals, rather than the £19,100 that they would including that public sector schemes will remain as currently earn in the final salary teachers’ pension scheme. defined benefit schemes, with a guaranteed amount A nurse with a lifetime in public service and a salary at provided in retirement, and that all accrued rights will retirement of £34,200 would receive £22,800 of pension be protected. Everything that public servants have earned each year if these reforms were introduced, whereas until the point of change, they will keep, and those under the current 1995 NHS pension scheme arrangements things will be paid out in the terms expected and at the they would only get £17,300. retirement age expected. Final salary means just that: a Pensions would remain considerably better than those person’s accrued rights will be based on their final available in the private sector. To earn the equivalent salary not at the point of change, but when their career pension in the private sector, the teacher retiring on ends or they choose to leave the scheme. No public £37,000 would need a pension pot of around £675,000, sector worker needs to have anything to fear for the and the nurse retiring on £34,200, a pot of £600,000. entitlements that they have already built up. Both would require an annual contribution of around a We have also reached agreement on the importance third of salary. of transparency, equality impacts, participation rates In addition, I have listened to the argument that and opt-outs, scheme governance, and high level principles those closest to retirement should not have to face any to inform consultations on scheme-level pensions. However, change at all. That is the approach that has been taken the central issue of the value of new schemes remains to over the years in relation to increases to the state be agreed. I believe that two aims need to be met. First, pension age, and I think it is fair to apply that here too. for most low and middle income workers, the new I can also announce that scheme negotiations will be schemes should generate an income at retirement that is given the flexibility, outside the cost ceiling, to deliver 929 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 930 protection so that no one within 10 years of retirement Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I thank the Chief will see any change in when they can retire or any Secretary for his statement and for advance notice of it. decrease in the amount of pension they receive. Anyone I welcome today’s signal that the Government are now 10 years or less from retirement age on 1 April 2012 can willing to enter into proper discussions. That is a welcome be assured that there will be no detriment to their change from the months of Treasury and Cabinet Office retirement income. intransigence that came before. We need to be clear about the backdrop against Too often in recent months it has appeared that the which this offer is made. I fully understand that families Government have not understood that strikes are a sign across the country are feeling financial pressure right of failure on both sides. Let us be clear: it was this now. These are unprecedented and tough economic Government’s decision to rip up the framework established times. But reform is essential because the costs of public by the last Labour Government and to go much further service pensions have risen dramatically over the last much faster. In particular, it was the Chancellor’s decision few decades. The bottom line is that we are all living to pre-empt Lord Hutton and impose a 3% surcharge longer. The average 60-year-old today is living 10 years for all employees announced in the spending review last longer now than they did in the 1970s. That is a remarkable year, before negotiations had even begun. That decision and welcome achievement, but it also means that people suggested that rather than negotiating in good faith, the are living in retirement longer and claiming their pension Government were intent on acting unilaterally and so for longer. As a result, the costs of public service provoking confrontation. It is good news, therefore, pensions have risen to £32 billion a year, an increase of that the Government have at last made a constructive a third in the last 10 years. While they accounted for just move to begin proper discussions. under 1% of GDP in 1970, they account for around Let me be clear: no one wants strike action. The 2% of GDP today—more than we spend in total on Government and the unions have a duty to show that police, prisons and the courts. And for the most part, it they have exhausted every possible avenue. Our focus is has not been the public service workers footing the bill, on those who rely on services that would be affected by but the general taxpayer. We have to reform to ensure strikes—from parents who will have to take a day off that the costs of pensions are sustainable in the long work to those who rely on home help. However, public term and to ensure that costs and risks are fairly shared sector workers—nurses, teachers and dinner ladies—also between employees and employers. care too much about the people they serve day in, day I believe this package is affordable. I believe it is also out to consider action as anything other than a last fair to public service workers, and delivers significant resort, yet those who work in front-line public services long-term savings to taxpayers who will continue to are also desperately worried about their future and make a significant contribution to these pensions. If about whether they will be able to afford retirement. It reform along these lines is agreed, I believe that we will is for the Government to ensure, therefore, that change have a deal that can endure for at least 25 years and is agreed and delivered in a way that brings with them hopefully longer. People are living longer, so public the nurses, teachers, home helps and dinner ladies affected service pension reform is inevitable. But we have listened by the changes. to the concerns of public sector workers and come up It is welcome that the Government have now with a deal that is fair and affordable. The lowest paid recognised that announcing tactical offers on the airwaves, and people 10 years from retirement will be protected, rather than constructive proposals in proper negotiations, and public service pensions will still be among the very is not the right way to proceed. However, I would best available. suggest three key tests for a fair agreement. First, on If reform of this sort is agreed, then no party in this affordability, do the changes deliver a fair deal for House will need to seek further reform of the overall taxpayers when times are tough, taxes are rising and package. This sustainability is an important prize. So I spending is being cut? Secondly, on fairness, do they hope that the trade unions will now grasp the opportunity deliver a fair deal for public sector workers on low and that this new offer represents. I also hope that the middle incomes, whose pensions are far from gold-plated Labour party will do the right thing, put party politics and who have given so much to the services in which aside, and support the proposals, which—after all—came they work? Thirdly, on sustainability, do the changes from John Hutton, in the interests of securing a long deliver a workable settlement for the long term that term consensus on the future of public service pensions. does not undermine the sustainability of existing schemes It is the chance of a lifetime to secure good, high and which can be flexible in the face of rising life quality, and fair public service pensions. expectancy? That is how we will judge the outcome of Yes, we are asking public service workers to contribute the negotiations. more. Yes, we are asking them to work longer, along To meet those tests, it has always been clear that with the rest of society, but we are offering the chance public sector workers will need to accept higher of a significantly better pension at the end of it for contributions on average and, given that people are many low and middle income earners. It will be a fairer living longer, an increase in the retirement age, too. pension, so that low income workers stop subsidising That was fundamental to the arrangements put in place pensions for the highest earners. It will be a sustainable by the previous Government for capping the Government’s deal that will endure for at least 25 years, and an contributions and then, as costs rose, negotiating how affordable deal that will ensure that taxpayers are asked to increase workers’ contributions or change entitlements. to make a sensible contribution, but will keep costs Equally, however, the Government have to accept that sustainable and under proper control. That is the new for many low-paid staff, their pension is the only means offer I am putting on the table today, it is an offer that of security in retirement. In a time of pay freezes, sharp the Opposition should support and the unions should increases in contributions risk hardship today and increased agree to and I commend this statement to the House. levels of opt-out, pushing up pensioner poverty in the 931 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 932

[Rachel Reeves] the Office for Budget Responsibility, about the impact that 1% of pay-bill would have on opt-out rates, which I future, which is why we have been critical of the accept. We are engaged in a separate track of negotiations confrontational stance taken by the Government and of with the local government pension scheme—which the the rush to early industrial action in June. hon. Lady also mentioned—precisely in recognition of We will see in the coming days whether these moves the fact that it is a funded scheme and that therefore are sufficient to restore the much-needed trust in these different considerations apply. discussions that could ensure that, even at this late On affordability—the first of the hon. Lady’s three stage, there is still time for both sides to step back from tests—let me tell her that, yes, the changes are affordable. the brink. We must all study the detail of what is now Her test is met. This test ensures—[Interruption.] on the table, but on affordability, will the Chief Secretary Opposition Front Benchers are saying, “Part-time workers?” set out the cost of these concessions to the public purse? The contributions increase has been set out. We have As he rightly sets out the transitional protections for ensured, on a scheme-by-scheme basis, that the workers in their 50s and tapering arrangements for contributions will be tiered according to income. Those those in their late-40s, can he say whether both these earning less than £15,000 a year on a full-time equivalent additional costs will have to be made by savings elsewhere basis will have zero—[Interruption.] The right hon. in the system? On fairness, can he confirm that the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) likes to proposed increase in contributions, if applied across the hector from a sedentary position. Instead of being the board, would still mean an increase in contributions for shadow chunterer, perhaps he will sit there and listen. low-paid and part-time workers earning less than £15,000 We have made it clear that those earning up to £21,000 a year? Have the Government assessed the impact of on a full-time equivalent basis will have a reduction. the pay freeze on opt-out rates from public sector The full-time equivalent basis for pension reform is the pension schemes to date? basis—[Interruption.] On sustainability, has an assessment been made of Mr Speaker: Order. There was quite a lot of chuntering the impact of the 3% increase in contributions proposed earlier when the shadow Chief Secretary was speaking, from April and of whether increased drop-out rates and that should not happen. Those on the Opposition could affect the viability of funded schemes, such as the Front Bench have had their go, and I am afraid that local government scheme? Is it the Chief Secretary’s they cannot pursue the debate again from a sedentary intention that those affected as a result of the settlement position. Let us hear the Chief Secretary. The House will have the certainty of knowing that there will be no knows that I will allow plenty of time for questions, so further changes for 25 years? How will he deliver on we need not get aerated about it. that commitment? Will he give the House a timetable for discussions over the next eight weeks, given his aim Danny Alexander: The full-time equivalent basis for to secure agreement by the end of the year? I hope that pension reform is being approached in exactly the same he can reassure taxpayers and public sector workers— way that the previous Government treated it. The hon. teachers, the police, home helps and others—on those Lady’s tests for affordability, fairness and a workable points. The Government must leave no stone unturned settlement are all met. She did not say, in the end, in their negotiations to seek a genuinely sustainable whether she supported the deal on the table to date. It is agreement that is fair for public sector workers and incumbent on the Opposition to understand the deal taxpayers, and avoids a strike this autumn. and support it. It is also incumbent on them to make clear their position on strike action. I hope that she Danny Alexander: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for agrees with me that, in light of the new offer and the her response, although she left a few questions unanswered constructive approach taken to the negotiations, she herself, which I shall come to. should not support trade unions going ahead with On proper discussions, I reject what she said about strike action later this month. the Government’s stance. Talks have been going on constructively for the last eight months. The Minister Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I welcome for the Cabinet Office and I have spent many, many the extensive work that has gone into these proposals hours in those discussions, and if the hon. Lady talked and would like to ask a question specific to my constituency to the trade unions, she would discover that they, too, and many others. Many teachers in my constituency see them as constructive. She also referred to the previous work in the state sector, but over their careers they will Government’s cap and share arrangement. Let me tell often spend periods in the independent sector too. Will her what Lord Hutton said about it in his report: the proposals continue to allow inter-changeability between “Cap and share cannot take account of the increases in cost of the two sectors? pensions over recent decades because people have been living Danny Alexander: If agreement is reached, they will. longer. Also, untested, complex cap and share arrangements cannot of themselves, address the underlying issue of structural The arrangements that the hon. Lady describes are an reforms, nor significantly reduce current costs to taxpayers.” important part of the discussions, but they depend on reaching a sustainable agreement on the future of public In other words, the previous Government’s arrangements service pensions along the lines I have set out. were simply not good enough at controlling the costs in the way we need to. Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I look The hon. Lady asked me several questions; let me forward to studying the proposals, because with pensions address them directly.As I said in my statement, transitional the devil is always in the detail. I have spoken to public protections and tapering are outside the cost ceiling, so sector workers, and the two things that they are most they will not be met at the expense of other arrangements, concerned about—and which might have encouraged which may be negotiated on a scheme-by-scheme basis. them to vote for strike action at the end of November—are On contributions, there was an assumption, audited by the large increase in individual contributions, on top of 933 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 934 what they already contribute, and the move from the Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is absolutely right retail prices index to the consumer prices index. I did to celebrate Lord Hutton’s independence in this matter. not hear from the Chief Secretary’s statement whether It is a measure of the Opposition’s lack of interest in the those two things remain in place, which would be a subject that they have not even asked for the statement disappointment to public sector workers. to be repeated in the House of Lords, so that Members there can hear directly from Lord Hutton. He did not Danny Alexander: Those two things do remain in recommend a level of adequacy, but he did say that the place. I understood from a previous debate that the floor threshold should be the adequacy rates set out by Opposition supported the switch from RPI to CPI. We Adair Turner. The offer that I am announcing today is are going ahead with the increase in member contributions, 40% more generous than those floor adequacy rates. which, as Lord Hutton said in his interim report, is necessary to rebalance the substantial increase in costs John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Is it over the past few decades, which have been borne not true that the vast majority of public servants will almost entirely by the taxpayer. Around the table with still be paying more and working longer, and that a the trade union negotiators, the main issues raised in significant number will still lose out? The protections recent weeks have been the accrual rate, the transitional for the lower-paid will not affect trained firefighters, arrangements and the guarantee that we are reaching a trained teachers or trained doctors, or many other long-term settlement. public servants. The accrued rights that the right hon. Gentleman has offered are actually a legal duty, and he Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): I welcome the Chief will exacerbate the industrial relations climate by making Secretary’s statement. On many occasions in Bracknell an offer, but at the same time threatening to take it off and Finchampstead, I have met people in their 30s and the table. 40s employed in the private sector—the majority of people in my constituency are employed in the private Danny Alexander: I know that the hon. Gentleman sector. Can he confirm that many in the public sector has taken a long interest in these matters, but he is would have to contribute a third of their salary and wrong in his characterisation. He is of course right that pension contributions in order to get similar pensions we are asking public sector workers to work longer, to in the private sector? set the normal pension age in line with the state pension age, but frankly that is happening to every single person in this country. Public sector workers cannot be immune Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely from that trend any more than anyone else. He mentioned right: I can confirm that that would be the case. In some firefighters. Let me say that good discussions are taking cases the figure would be more, depending on how the place on the firefighters’ pension scheme. We have delayed scheme-by-scheme talks that will go forward resolve the setting a cost ceiling to take account of all the factors in issue. In order to acquire a pension of the sort that we the firefighters’ pension scheme, particularly the double are rightly talking about for public sector workers, accrual. people in the private sector would need to acquire a pension pot of £500,000 or more, which would require a Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): May I substantial salary contribution, of the order of a third. welcome today’s statement and pass on the comments made to me by teachers in South Derbyshire in both the Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The Chief private sector and the public sector? It is important that Secretary made much of preserving accrued rights. accrued rights remain and that it is easy to move between However, to return to the CPI and RPI, what will the the two areas, because the private sector is very strong average loss be to public sector workers of making the indeed in Derbyshire. switch permanent? Danny Alexander: I am grateful for those comments. Danny Alexander: I think the hon. Lady may have It is important that teachers, health workers and civil been trying to welcome the protection of accrued rights, servants study for themselves what the Government are in which case I am grateful for her comments. She is offering. There has been a great deal of misinformation right that the switch from RPI is a change to public around this debate. We are setting out a document service pensions that will reduce the benefits over the today that describes the position in detail. A new website, long term, although that will depend on the scheme and too, will be available for public sector workers to see the individual involved. However, it is the right thing to precisely what it might mean for them. I hope those do, because we are talking about the measure of inflation people will seek to form their own opinion of what the used by the Bank of England to set rates. The answer to Government are offering. the hon. Lady’s question will depend on the individual scheme and the individual person. John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Will the Chief Secretary clarify one comment he made in his Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Both the Liberal statement, when he said that the offer is conditional Democrat manifesto, which my right hon. Friend authored, upon reaching agreement? Does that imply that any and the coalition agreement committed the Government industrial action taken anywhere by any trade union to an independent review of pensions, and one cannot member will mean the offer being withdrawn? get more independent than the former Labour Secretary of State, Lord Hutton. Will my right hon. Friend confirm Danny Alexander: No, this is not conditional on that what he has set out today is more generous to industrial action. Some unions are saying that they are future pensioners and current employees than Lord planning strikes on 30 November. Talks on a scheme-by- Hutton recommended, while maintaining fairness for scheme basis will still be going on at that time. I hope the taxpayer? that those unions will feel that, on the basis of this offer, 935 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 936

[Danny Alexander] I sincerely hope that the unions take that in the spirit in which it is intended so that we do not have industrial they no longer need to go ahead with that action. I action over the winter. think that would be a constructive response to what I have set out today. The offer is conditional upon an Danny Alexander: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for agreement being reached—an agreement by the end of her comments. I sensed from our earlier discussions the year on the heads of terms on a scheme-by-scheme that the trade unions recognised that this was a constructive basis. It is appropriate that we set out a good offer; as a step by the Government. It is the best offer that is going Government, we want to reach agreement, but at the to be on the table; I think it is important that it is end of the day the trade unions need to want that, too. understood in that sense.

Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): Neither the May I commend my right hon. Friend for his statement Chancellor yesterday nor the Chief Secretary today and for the tone in which he has delivered it—and, answered the question about part-time workers—specifically indeed, commend my right hon. Friend the Minister for about those earning less than £15,000 whose wages the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General? Will the would be above that if they were working full time. Will Chief Secretary welcome the notes of conciliation in the Minister tell us clearly whether those people will the response by Her Majesty’s official Opposition? Although end up paying the 3% contribution? If so, he must our politics does not lend itself to consensus, is this not understand why there cannot be an easy consensus on a subject on which we wish to reach a broad consensus the issue. both for the well-being of public sector pensions and Danny Alexander: As I said in answer to the shadow for the country and economy as a whole? Chief Secretary, the proposals are on a full-time equivalent Danny Alexander: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for basis, which is exactly the way pension reform was his welcome and I agree wholeheartedly with his comments. carried out under the previous Government. Of course, It is precisely the sort of subject on which there should the matter was open for discussion in the consultations be a cross-party consensus. I think a consensus could be about the first year’s contribution increases. We look formed around the proposals we have made today. The forward to hearing the results of those consultations. shadow Chief Secretary says that she wishes to study George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): I welcome the our proposals. That is fair enough, but I hope that she statement and congratulate the Front-Bench team on will see on reflection that the proposals we are putting the work they have done to go as far as they can to help forward are the right way to go forward on public the low-paid. Is it not the truth that we are facing a service pensions both for public sector workers, who are crisis of spiralling costs from an irresponsible boom in fully entitled to a proper and decent pension, and for the public sector under the last Government—with the taxpayer as a whole. unfunded pension liabilities, bankrupt public finances and debt interest set to rise to £76 billion? Is it not the Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does truth that it is always the poorest that pick up the bills the Minister agree that the statement consisted of sacrificing for Labour and that a responsible— long-term pension rights to pay for a short-term failure to stimulate economic growth? What we are seeing, Mr Speaker: Order. The trouble with Members crafting after 13 years of industrial peace, is the return of mass their questions word for word is that they tend to be strike action due to Tory economic failure and a threatening, rather long. macho approach to negotiation. [Interruption.] Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman is right that Mr Speaker: Order. It would be more seemly if the the poorest in society end up paying the price for the hon. Gentleman were not standing with his hand in his loss of financial control that we saw in this country pocket, but I must say to the Education Secretary that under the previous Government. He referred to the he really should not keep on expostulating noisily from liabilities in public service pensions. Those liabilities are, a sedentary position. If he were to do that in one of the on the latest figures, more than £1.1 trillion. That is the nation’s classrooms, he would be in detention by now. entire education budget for more than 20 years. Danny Alexander: The Education Secretary’s noisy Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I welcome expostulations have been thoroughly in support of what the flexibility that the Government are showing today the Government are doing; as such, I welcome them. I in moving this whole issue forward. Where the statement think that the tone struck by the hon. Member for dealt with the Government’s revised offer, the Chief Swansea West (Geraint Davies) is entirely out of keeping Secretary provided some examples of the benefits that with the tone of the debate so far. For all the reasons I will accrue to some workers. Will he outline some have given, reform of public sector pensions is necessary. examples of where people will be worse off? To press It is important that we get it right and that we do so by him on the point about the consumer prices index, he agreement if we can. That is this Government’s objective. must surely have the facts and figures, but by how much on average will people be worse off as a result of the Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I share the switch from RPI? disappointment at the rather lukewarm response on the Labour Benches. May I ask my right hon. Friend to Danny Alexander: The right hon. Gentleman asks stress to the unions that this is not the opening salvo in who will be worse off, which is a fair question. One flaw further negotiations, so they really should take this as a with the current final salary arrangements in the public realistic opportunity to come up with a long-term solution sector is that the contributions of low-paid workers go for the 25-year period that would be best for the taxpayer? towards subsidising the pensions of the highest earners. 937 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 938

That is one reason why we want to move to a career Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): average basis. Some of the losers from that would be the Can the Chief Secretary confirm that every penny paid highest paid, particularly those such as chief executives in increased pension contributions will find its way into of local authorities, who receive a large jump in salary pension pots? at the end of their career and then get a pension as if that were their salary for their whole lifetime. Danny Alexander: As the hon. Gentleman should know, in unfunded schemes there is no such thing as a Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): There has been pension pot. The money is not gathered together and much concern over the last few years about a race to the invested. The contributions made today do not in any bottom with pensions, particularly given the parlous way meet the costs of the pensions being paid out today. state of pensions in much of the private sector. Can the What we are offering is what might be called a new deal Minister reassure us that the proposals currently on the for public service pensions, whereby additional contributions table will remain a gold standard and will ensure generous and longer working will help to ensure that public but sustainable pensions in the public sector in the long sector workers can still have the best pensions available. run? Many low-income workers will actually receive better pensions in retirement.

Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is right to remind Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I welcome us of the context in which 13 million workers in the the statement, because I think it demonstrates that the private sector have no pension provision at all. That is Government are listening to the concerns expressed by something that will be taken care of as the NEST—National nurses, teachers and firefighters in my constituency. Employment Savings Trust—scheme is introduced. These During the scheme-by-scheme discussions, will the Chief will remain gold standard pensions. It is quite right that Secretary bear in mind those with physically demanding public sector workers who make a lifetime of contribution jobs, such as firefighters? Will they retain the right to to serving this country should get the best pensions retire before reaching the state pension age, while still available, but the proposal will ensure that the costs are benefiting from their pensions? brought under control and that it is affordable to the taxpayer—not just now, but in the decades to come. Danny Alexander: That is a very good question. We are, of course, listening carefully to representations. As Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I very much welcome I have said, we have delayed setting a cost ceiling for the the tone of the Chief Secretary’s statement. In line with firefighters’ pension scheme, particularly in the light of the principle of transparency, which he underscored in some of the issues that my hon. Friend has mentioned, his statement, will he make sure that there is an independent but what we are discussing now is the normal pension valuation of the teachers’ pension scheme? age for schemes; early retirement arrangements on an actuarily reduced basis will remain in place. Danny Alexander: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s welcome of the tone we have taken. I hope that, in due Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Most of the course, he will welcome the substance as well. As to examples given by the Chief Secretary have involved valuation information, it is being provided in the context well-paid public sector workers who have been in continuous of the scheme-by-scheme discussions. The trade unions employment, but many of my constituents do not fall have put forward many requests for information to be into that category. Can he tell us how a low-paid part-time provided so that alternatives can be costed. All that worker earning, say, £8,000 a year and working 15 hours work is going on in the context of the scheme-by-scheme a week would fare? discussions, but the valuation that was going to take place has been suspended on the basis that changes have Danny Alexander: I cannot give a specific example, been made, not least to the discount rate, which make because I do not have the necessary figures to hand, but that work invalid. It is best to wait until a new scheme is I can say that I expect the lowest-paid people to benefit in place before we carry that work forward. most from these arrangements. At present, those on the lowest salaries and with the flattest career paths contribute most to the pensions of the highest earners. The change Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I very much welcome to a career-average basis will ensure that many workers, the transitional arrangements outlined by my right hon. particularly of the sort whom the hon. Lady has described, Friend for people 10 years away from retirement. It is end up with more rather than less income in retirement. particularly important for groups that would have joined I consider that to be a right and proper reward for those the public services at a time when, unlike now, public people’s commitment to public service. sector pay was less than private sector pay. Will he outline roughly how many people will be affected? Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I too welcome the statement, but given that economic growth, economic Danny Alexander: I am grateful for those comments. development and job creation in my constituency depend The transitional protection is a very important part of on the small business community, can the Chief Secretary this new offer. It is right that people who are within advise owners of small businesses how they should go 10 years of retirement should have certainty about their about amassing a pension pot of half a million pounds planning for retirement. That principle has been observed before they retire? on both sides in respect of the state pension age. I estimate that the transitional provision will protect more Danny Alexander: It is true that in the private sector than 1 million public sector workers from any impact at an enormous volume of contributions would be necessary all as a result of the changes. to build up the pension pot that is required to fund the 939 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 940

[Danny Alexander] It is precisely for the reason given by the hon. Lady that we have chosen to tier the pension contribution increases pensions that we are discussing today. The equivalent according to income, so that no one earning less than would be a pension pot of £600,000 or £700,000 a year. £15,000 a year will experience any contribution increase. That is a measure of the Government’s recognition of Those earning between £15,000 and £21,000 a year will the commitment that public service workers make. experience a much reduced increase, while the heaviest burden of increases will be borne by the highest earners. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The Chief Secretary That is the right and proper way in which to ensure that said earlier that the general taxpayer rather than public there are no opt-outs. service workers had been footing the bill. May I point out to him that public service workers are also taxpayers, Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): While it is and that it has not helped that some people have been true that all taxpayers pay for the pensions that we are able to use the high pensions of the best-paid in the discussing, it is low-paid private sector workers working public sector as a typical example of those in the rest of beyond retirement age—such as my dad—who are the sector? We all know that pensions in the rest of the subsidising public sector pensions while receiving none sector are very low. of the benefits. I therefore welcome the proposed changes, Will the Chief Secretary place in the House of Commons and hope that my former colleagues in the teaching Library some typical examples of the way in which the profession will accept them. change from RPI to CPI has affected different sectors? Firefighters’pensions were mentioned earlier. Firefighters Perhaps he could include examples involving part-time from my constituency whom I met yesterday were worried workers such as those cited by my hon. Friend the less about change than about whether they would be fit Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass). to do their job after the age of 55. Are the Government still prepared to discuss that issue with the union? Danny Alexander: As I said earlier, that depends on a variety of circumstances, but today we are publishing a Danny Alexander: Yes, and John Hutton said in his document that the hon. Gentleman can obtain from the report that he thought it appropriate to retain a lower Vote Office, entitled “Public sector pensions: good pensions retirement age for firefighters, the armed forces and the that last”, and I am sure that it will provide much of the police. It is precisely because of the importance of such information that he requires. issues that the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I welcome for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill)—who is my right hon. Friend’s improved offer on public sector leading the negotiations—is taking longer than expected pensions, which shows that the Government are serious to set the cost ceiling. That will enable us to ensure that about meaningful negotiations. Will he challenge the the arrangements for firefighters are appropriate and rather misleading claims from some quarters that people will allow them to continue to receive a very decent will have to pay more, work longer and get less? Surely pension in return for what is a very important contribution the truth is that—although people will indeed have to to our society. pay more and work longer—far from getting less, they will get much more, not least because on average they Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Like many will receive 10 years’ more pension payments than the other Members, I received a delegation of teachers last previous generation. week, and they told me that their current scheme was Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, fair and sustainable. They will be less than delighted by and she is also right to warn people against some of the the Chief Secretary’s earlier answer relating to a valuation misleading propaganda that is circulating. I think it of that scheme, for which they have been calling for important for public sector workers—teachers, nurses some time. Does the Chief Secretary recognise that he and civil servants—to take time to study the offer that must come clean about the costs to both taxpayers and we are making for themselves. The document that we employees if he is to win the battle to change hearts and are publishing will be available on a website, so they can minds? check out the new arrangements. As my hon. Friend Danny Alexander: Of course I recognise that we must says, yes, we are asking people to work longer and yes, win that battle for hearts and minds. That is why I am we are asking them to contribute more, but many providing so much information today, and urging public people will receive a significantly better pension on sector workers to look at the Government’s deal directly retirement than they would receive now. rather than necessarily relying on the information that Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I was grateful to they receive from their trade unions. the Chief Secretary yesterday for answering my question I do not think it right to suggest that the current about public sector workers who will no longer contribute teachers’ pension scheme is fair and sustainable. Let us to their pensions. He told me then that he expected 1% consider the relevant contribution rates. When the scheme of the pay bill to cease to contribute, but added that he was introduced many decades ago, employer and employee did not know who that 1% were. Given that they are each contributed 5%. Now the employer contributes very likely to be low-paid part-time workers rather than 16%, while the employee contributes about 6%. There the highly paid chief executives to whom he has referred, has been a big change in the affordability of the scheme, will he make the figures available to the House? and so far all the cost has fallen on the taxpayer. Danny Alexander: It is true that I gave the figure of Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): Does 1% of the pay bill. That is an assumption that was my right hon. Friend agree that the public sector should audited by the Office for Budget Responsibility and examine very carefully the generous revised terms that published in the relevant fiscal forecast that it presented. he has announced before considering strike action? 941 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 942

Such action would merely serve to hurt millions in the Danny Alexander: It is for the unions to reflect and private sector who pay their taxes in order to produce decide on their response. I am not standing here at the public sector pensions that they themselves can only Dispatch Box to respond for them; it is strange enough dream of. to respond for the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative party. I hope that the trade unions will, on reflection, Danny Alexander: I do indeed hope that the trade realise that this offer provides a justification for putting unions will examine the proposals carefully. I was renewed effort and vigour into the scheme-by-scheme encouraged when they said that they would at our discussions and much less effort and vigour into any meeting this morning. Of course trade unions need to possible strike action. take time to understand the impact of the changes, but I hope that on reflection they will accept that the new Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What is the cost offer constitutes a generous enhancement from the to the public purse of the changes the right hon. Gentleman Government, and a fair and reasonable basis on which has announced today? to reach agreement in the scheme-by-scheme talks that will take place during the next couple of months. Danny Alexander: The cost ceiling under these changes will be 8% higher than the previous cost ceiling we set Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): The out. Chief Secretary said he believed that pension changes should be sustainable and fair. Will he confirm that he Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): My intends additional contributions to the local government question has just been answered. pension scheme—which is a funded scheme—by scheme Mr Speaker: Well, that is a first—not the fact that the members to go straight to the Treasury rather than into question has been answered, but the fact that a Member their pension fund? has been self-denying to the extent that he sits down when his question has already been dealt with. That is Danny Alexander: No, that is not correct. an interesting precedent. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): According to reports Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Has the Chief Secretary in today’s press, only 40% of private sector workers taken into account the particular responsibilities of receive pension contributions, while 85% of public sector devolved Administrations and the rights of their public servants receive not only a pension, but a more generous sector workers—many of them low paid, and all of one. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is time to them tax-paying—and do the terms of today’s offer address these differences, rather than engage in irresponsible differ from the previous terms about which he wrote to strike action? those Administrations? Danny Alexander: I wholeheartedly agree that it is Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman makes a very time to address these differences, but not by trying to important point. These matters have been discussed get public sector involvement in pensions down to the regularly at the Finance Ministers quadrilaterals, which level in the private sector. What we need to do is what bring the Finance Ministers of the devolved Administrations we have done today: set out an offer that combines and me together, so people have been kept informed. affordability for the general taxpayer with proper pensions The tradition has been that the devolved pension schemes as a reward for a career in the public service, along with follow by analogy the agreements reached at a UK level. steps to encourage more private sector workers to involve I will write to the devolved Finance Ministers to set out themselves in pensions. That is precisely the basis of the what I have announced today, so they can take that into new NEST scheme, which the Minister of State, account in their own decisions on these matters. Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), is taking Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I strongly welcome forward. the improved flexibility, and ask that we be as generous as that allows. This is not just about fair rewards in Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): future or burdens on the taxpayer; it is also about Does the Chief Secretary regret the way negotiations recruitment and retention now, to keep people in the have been conducted so far, with him practising megaphone police, teaching and, in my constituency, GCHQ, working diplomacy, not providing information requested by the for the well-being and safety of taxpayers and non-taxpayers trade unions, and causing a great deal of distress and alike. upset to my constituents who are public sector workers? Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend makes the point Danny Alexander: I think what the hon. Lady has that public sector workers have traditionally considered said is total nonsense; that is not an appropriate the level of pension to be an important part of their characterisation of what we have done. I do not regret reward package, and they are right to think that. I hope the way the talks have progressed for the past eight my hon. Friend agrees that the offer we have set out months, and I look forward to reaching agreement on today constitutes a very fair reward for a career spent in this issue, with or without the support of the Opposition. precisely the sort of public service institutions he has described. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend outline how he thinks the unions Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): The should respond to the proposals he has set out today? Chief Secretary will be aware that one of the concerns Does he agree with most Members on the Government about increasing contributions is that that will lead to a Benches, who think the unions should respond by today rise in opt-out rates, particularly among low-paid and calling off any planned industrial action? part-time workers, most of whom are women. In his 943 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 944

[Katy Clark] It is also why we have tiered the contributions increase in order to try to prevent opt-out. The negotiations on answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Slough the firefighters’ scheme are ongoing, and I am told they (Fiona Mactaggart), he mentioned an assumption of are going well. We have delayed the publication of the 1% of the pay bill, but the schemes and their memberships cost ceiling to make sure we can take into account all are very different. Will he ensure that opt-out rates the issues raised by firefighters in the discussions. are analysed on a scheme-by-scheme basis, as rising contributions could have a major effect on the viability Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I welcome today’s of some schemes? statement. Many of the measures will meet the concerns of people such as the firefighters I met yesterday. On Danny Alexander: We have taken that on board through career-average earnings, does my right hon. Friend share the proposals for a tiered increase in contributions. The my aspiration about the system being fairer to those hon. Lady will be aware that 80% of the public sector who have taken career breaks, many of whom will be workers who earn less than £15,000 a year and will not women? have any contribution rate at all are women.

Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Some months Danny Alexander: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for ago, when the Minister for the Cabinet Office and reminding me of that important point. Public service Paymaster General told the House that one of his key pensions must reflect not only the careers of people negotiating goals was to protect, if not improve, the who spend an unbroken working life in the public pensions of lower and middle-earning public sector sector, but the careers of the many people who take time workers, not all my constituents were convinced. Today, out. By having a career-average basis, especially when he and the Chief Secretary have delivered on that promise, each year’s contribution is revalued by earnings, people and hard-working nurses at the Gloucestershire royal who take a career break will still get the full value of the hospital and teachers in Gloucester will welcome the contributions they have made in both parts of their news that many of them will have better pensions than career. at present. However, does the Chief Secretary share my disappointment that the Opposition Front-Bench team Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): I congratulate has been unable to welcome today’s news, especially as the Chief Secretary on listening so carefully and responding workers in businesses such as Wall’s in my constituency so generously to the representations on pensions. The have recently seen their own pensions significantly watered police cannot strike, of course, and Lord Hutton has down? dealt with them separately, but can the Chief Secretary tell us a little more about the proposals for police Danny Alexander: I agree. My hon. Friend is right to pensions? draw attention to the important role played by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General. Danny Alexander: Those proposals will be brought If I may say so, we make a good team in these negotiations. forward later. Police pensions are being considered by These are very generous pension schemes, particularly Tom Winsor in his second report. His recommendations for low and middle-income earners, and rightly so. We will not be about the police alone, but we need to make must make sure the funding of them is sustainable in sure that police officers get a proper, fair and decent both the short term and the long term. That is one of pension for the contribution they make to our society. the reasons why I find the Opposition’s lack of welcome for the announcement so frustrating. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): The Chief Secretary has once again said that all accrued Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): Although I rights will be protected. Will he confirm, however, that welcome the Chief Secretary’s statement, I am disappointed the change from the retail prices index to the consumer that it has taken eight months to get any serious negotiation prices index will, in practice, affect the accrued rights of and any movement from the Government. I am particularly every single member of every public sector pension concerned about two issues. The first is to do with scheme? low-paid women workers in the pension scheme, and particularly those who work part time. Has any analysis Danny Alexander: I do not believe that that is a been done of the possible impacts if they opt out of correct use of the term “accrued rights”. Of course we their pension scheme, therefore receiving less money will protect the accrued rights in full. The RPI to CPI when they retire from the benefits they then receive? On switch will have the effect that I described in my statement. the firefighters’ pension scheme, we have heard conflicting That is the subject of a legal dispute at the moment, but answers from the Chief Secretary: he has said they will it was the right decision by the Government. have actuarially reduced pensions, but he has also said they will be allowed to retire early. I am therefore a little confused as to where the Chief Secretary stands on Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): that. Has the Chief Secretary received any constructive representations from the Labour party regarding this Danny Alexander: I am very grateful indeed for the important topic or has its involvement been limited to first welcome for my statement from an Opposition the irresponsible words of the shadow education Member. The hon. Lady is right that it is important to spokesman, who is no longer in his place, condoning consider low-paid workers, which is why we are proposing teachers’ strikes? to move to a career-average basis, under which low-paid workers will keep more of their own contributions, Danny Alexander: I am yet to receive a constructive instead of subsidising the pensions of the highest earners. suggestion from the Labour party, but I live in hope. 945 Public Service Pensions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Public Service Pensions 946

Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I welcome the setting out this new offer, which is conditional on statement. As the Chief Secretary knows, I broadly agreement being reached. The Government will continue support the direction of travel that the Government to work very hard to achieve that agreement, both in the have been taking, but I had some concerns. I think that scheme-specific discussions and in the central process, tremendous progress has been made and I am grateful which we will also continue. for that. I have a technical question that is important to a lot of my constituents: what is the current split Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Does the Chief Secretary between employer and employee contributions for teachers agree that, as longevity is still increasing by about two and nurses, and how would that change under his years a decade and is likely to carry on doing so, we proposals? cannot stick our head in the sand or sit on the fence, as we have seen the Opposition do? All parties need to Danny Alexander: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s work together to reach a proper consensus, so that we welcome. Today’s announcement will increase the cost can achieve a long-lasting, sustainable settlement. ceiling for the talks. We will make sure that the employer contribution is still significantly greater than the employee Danny Alexander: I think that it would be in the contribution, but of course the contributions increase national interest to have a proper cross-party consensus that we are proposing rebalances them to take account on today’s proposals. The hon. Gentleman is right to of past increases and longevity. On the teachers’ pension highlight the increases in longevity. By linking the normal scheme for England and Wales, the gross cost ceiling pension age to the state pension age we can ensure that that we are setting out today will be 21.7%, the taxpayer the taxpayer is protected from that in future, because as contribution will be 12.1% and the employee contribution longevity increases, the state pension age can be changed. will be 9.6%. Of course these matters still have to be That is the right way to protect pensions, rather than discussed in the teacher scheme-specific negotiations, the previous Government’s cap and share arrangement, but that is the basic framework that we are setting out which would have meant complex negotiations every today. three years. That would have resulted in both increases in contributions and reductions in benefits every three Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The whole years. By setting out this scheme now, we have one that House will welcome the statement from one of the most can last for 25 years without the need for further capable Ministers in the coalition Government, who negotiation. has been keeping the House informed. The point about Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): In the private the transition was the biggest concern to constituents sector, where most people work, getting an annual who came to see me. May we have it clearly put on the pension of £10,000 typically requires a pension pot of record that nobody who is within 10 years of their £200,000, which would buy a very nice house in Kettering. current retirement date will have to retire later or will be Does the Chief Secretary share my concern that many worse off? public sector workers seem to think that private sector provision is far more generous than it actually is? Danny Alexander: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s comments, and I hope that Mrs Bone shares his views. Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman is right about He is right to say that nobody who is within 10 years of that, and he makes an important point. Part of the retirement on 1 April next year will see any change reason for setting out some of the information about either to their retirement age or to the benefits that they pension pots today is precisely to widen public receive. understanding of the comparison. That is not to do down public sector workers—in fact, what we are setting Mr Speaker: That answer will doubtless wing its way out today is a properly positive and generous offer to to Mrs Bone in a matter of minutes. them—but we are making it clear that there is a wide gulf and we need to raise standards in the private sector Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): I congratulate too. the Chief Secretary on his statement. May I also ask him to continue to negotiate and engage positively with Mr Speaker: I thank the Chief Secretary and colleagues, the trade unions in the weeks and months ahead? whose succinctness enabled 47 Back-Bench Members to question the Chief Secretary in 41 minutes of exclusively Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman can certainly Back-Bench time. It shows what can be done when ask that and I certainly will do so. The Government are we try. 947 2 NOVEMBER 2011 948

Point of Order Devolved Administrations (Armed Forces Covenant Reports) 1.34 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): On a point of order, No.23) Mr Speaker. Earlier, the Minister for the Cabinet Office said that the time for transparency had come, yet when I asked the Chief Secretary, who is now leaving, to put in 1.36 pm the Library examples of how the changes that he announced today will affect different sectors in typical cases, he Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I refused to do so. You will know that pensions are a beg to move, complicated area. We have been given the information That leave be given to bring in a Bill to impose a duty on the today but we have not seen the details yet. Surely you devolved administrations to report annually on the Military would agree that putting in the Library some examples Covenant and the effects of membership, or former membership, of the impact on different sectors would have helped the of the armed forces on service people; and for connected purposes. House to come to some conclusion about whether the My party fully supports the principles of the military deal is good or bad. Can you give us any assistance in covenant, and we welcome the commitments given by ensuring that we get that sort of information, which the Government in the Armed Forces Bill that strengthen would be helpful to the whole of Parliament? the legal standing of the covenant. We also acknowledge the recent reports prepared by the hon. Member for Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is underestimating South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), who is in his himself, because I do not think that he needs any help place, including his recent report on the services available from me. He is a pretty experienced and ingenious to military amputees. We commend him on his excellent Member who is well able to use the resources of the work. Table Office to pursue his concerns; he has, of course, I recently attended an event in the constituency of my highlighted them. I just have this lingering suspicion, of hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) which I hope he will cure me, that he is trying to to recognise the contribution of the Irish Guards, who continue the debate, but I am sure I am wrong. have recently returned from operational deployment in Afghanistan. Several amputee soldiers who had been Derek Twigg: On a point of order— seriously wounded during their time in Helmand province were there, and I was reminded of the importance of Mr Speaker: Not on the same matter. ensuring that these soldiers are properly cared for and looked after. They are, of course, based in England and Derek Twigg: On a point of order— have access to the highest standards of care, but one wonders whether the same level of care and treatment Mr Speaker: On a completely unrelated matter? No, would be available to them if they lived in Northern well we will leave it there for today. If there are no Ireland. further points of order, we come now to the ten- minute rule motion, and I call the right hon. Member for Yet Northern Ireland provides a major contribution Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), who has been patiently to our armed forces. In fact, more than 20% of the waiting. reserve forces regularly deployed on operations come from Northern Ireland, despite the fact that we make up 3% of the UK population. That is a remarkable achievement for the reserve forces in the Province. Sadly, some of those who are deployed are killed or sustain life-changing injuries, and it is important that these soldiers receive the care and support that they need, wherever they live in the United Kingdom and wherever they are based. In respect of this Bill, I wish to acknowledge the excellent contribution made by service charities, including the Royal British Legion, Help for Heroes, Combat Stress, the Army Benevolent Fund—now known as The Soldiers Charity—and the regimental benevolent funds, whose work should not be forgotten. They very often provide help for soldiers who have been seriously injured on operational deployment. In Northern Ireland we are very proud of the giving by our people to such charities. Northern Ireland donates more per head to the poppy appeal than any other region of the United Kingdom. We want to ensure that our soldiers receive the care and support that they need when they most need it, regardless of which region of the United Kingdom they are located in. That is why I am introducing the Bill today. We want to ensure that there is uniformity across the United Kingdom in the delivery of the objectives and principles in the military covenant. 949 Devolved Administrations (Armed 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Devolved Administrations (Armed 950 Forces Covenant Reports) Forces Covenant Reports) For example, we have quite a high number of former Administrations’ obligation a step further and give them service personnel in Northern Ireland suffering from a duty to provide such a report. It is only right that we post-traumatic stress disorder, because we had more should do so, in the interests of the men and women than 30 years of conflict in which the Army was deployed who serve this country. That would strengthen the on the longest operation in the history of the British provisions of the Armed Forces Bill. Army, Operation Banner. Yet I talk to many of those As I said, we are immensely proud of the contribution veterans and they tell me that they are not receiving the that the men and women of this country make in our level of support and care that they need. They contrast armed forces. We know that these are difficult times and that with the level of care that is available in other parts that there is pressure on public services, but we fully of the United Kingdom. Clearly there is a deficit, and endorse the principles behind the military covenant that we want to see it addressed. How do we go about that? when our armed forces personnel place themselves in Another issue for us in Northern Ireland is the fact danger in the line of duty and sustain serious injuries, that the Northern Ireland Executive is the only devolved or when their families are left bereaved by the loss of a Administration that does not participate in the covenant loved one, they receive the support that they undoubtedly reference group. The Scottish Government are represented, deserve, in terms of adequate care and treatment. Therefore the Welsh Assembly Government are represented, but we do not believe it is unjust or unfair to place a duty on not the Northern Ireland Executive, so again there is a the devolved Administrations to provide an annual lack of uniformity across the United Kingdom. Although report to the House stating exactly what they are doing of course we cannot interfere in the day-to-day workings to implement the principles and objectives of the military of the devolved Administrations, nevertheless, as it is covenant. Parliament that is charged with oversight of the military My remarks are not intended as a criticism of some covenant, Parliament should place a duty on all the of the excellent work already being undertaken by the devolved Administrations to report annually on what devolved Administrations. I know that in Northern they are doing to fulfil their obligations under the Ireland we have particular problems with the way in military covenant. That reporting mechanism would which our government system operates, but even there, enable Parliament to assess the extent to which there is very good work has taken forward key elements of the a lack of uniformity across the United Kingdom in the military covenant. We want that to go further. We want level of care and support provided to both serving and to ensure that wherever they live in the United Kingdom, former armed services personnel. whatever region of the United Kingdom they reside in That is the main thrust of the Bill. We want to ensure or are based in, our armed forces personnel have access that over time we achieve that uniformity and hold the to the same level of care and support as they would devolved Administrations to account in fulfilling their have in other parts of the Kingdom. commitments and obligations under the military covenant. I am grateful for the opportunity to present the Bill It may be the case that upon receiving the annual this afternoon. I trust that the House will give its reports from the devolved Administrations, we would support to the measure. want to debate those reports here in the House and consider the extent to which the devolved Administrations Question put and agreed to. are fulfilling their obligations. Ordered, I recognise that in the Armed Forces Bill, as That Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson, Mr Julian Brazier, amended in the other place, the Government have Mr Gregory Campbell, Mr Nigel Dodds, Thomas made provision for the Secretary of State to prepare an Docherty, John Glen, Mr Dai Havard, Patrick Mercer, annual report on the military covenant, and that the Mrs Madeleine Moon, Sandra Osborne, Jim Shannon report should take account of the views of the devolved and David Simpson present the Bill. Administrations, but it does not place an obligation on the devolved Administrations to provide those views, Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson accordingly presented the and if the devolved Administration does not endorse its Bill. part of the report, that element of the report is not Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on brought to the House. My Bill would take the devolved Friday 20 January 2012, and to be printed (Bill 243). 951 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 952 Punishment of Offenders Bill Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of New clause 43—Funding for civil legal advice— Offenders Bill ‘(1) The Lord Chancellor may make funding available for the promotion of civil legal advice on matters not included in Schedule 1, [Relevant document: The Third Report from the Justice Part 1 where it appears to the Lord Chancellor that the provision Committee, on the Government’s proposed reform of of such services would be consistent with the purpose of the civil legal aid, HC 681, and the Government’s response thereto, legal services provided for under that schedule. Cm 8111.] (2) The Lord Chancellor may make arrangements by— [3RD ALLOCATED DAY] (a) entering into funding arrangements with other Government Further consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public departments and public bodies to facilitate the provision Bill Committee of services, (b) making arrangements to support the delivery of civil New Clause 4 legal advice through the provision of grant in aid to providers of legal services, including any consortia or STATUS OF DIRECTOR AND LORD CHANCELLOR partnership arrangements into which providers of legal services may choose to enter, and ‘(1) The Director is to carry out the functions of the office on behalf of the Crown. (c) any additional arrangements which the Lord Chancellor (2) Service as the Director is service in the civil service of the considers appropriate to ensure the provision of services State. as set out in subsection (1). (3) The Lord Chancellor is to be treated as a corporation (3) In making any such arrangements the Lord Chancellor sole— shall ensure that value for money is achieved. (a) for all purposes relating to the acquisition, holding, (4) Welsh Ministers shall be consulted upon the funding and management and disposal of property and interests provision of civil legal advice in Wales. in property under this Part, and (5) “Civil legal advice” means the types of services given in (b) for all other purposes relating to the Lord Chancellor’s section 7(1) and includes advice and assistance which is usually functions in connection with legal aid and other given by any representative in the steps preliminary or incidental functions under this Part. to proceedings and as to any appeal, mediation and other forms (4) An instrument in connection with the acquisition, holding, of dispute resolution, but does not include representation for the management or disposal by the Lord Chancellor of property or purposes of proceedings.’. an interest in property under this Part or for a purpose mentioned in subsection (3)(b) may be executed on the Lord Chancellor’s Government new schedule 3—‘Northern Ireland: behalf by a person authorised by the Lord Chancellor for that information about financial resources. purpose. Amendment 162, in clause 1, page 2, line 7, at end (5) Any such instrument purporting to have been executed by insert— the Lord Chancellor or on the Lord Chancellor’s behalf is to be received in evidence and, unless the contrary is proved, to be ‘(c) funding for the promotion of civil legal services, not treated as having been so executed.’.—(Mr Djanogly.) including representation, on matters not included in Schedule 1, Part 1 where it appears to the Lord Brought up, and read the First time. Chancellor that the provision of such services would be consistent with the purpose of the civil legal services 1.47 pm provided for under that schedule.’. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Amendment 123, in clause 4, page 3, line 25, leave out (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I beg to move, That the clause subsection (4) and insert— be read a Second time. ‘(4A) The Director must, except to the extent that section (4B) Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it applies, act under the direction of the Lord Chancellor. will be convenient to discuss the following: (4B) The Director must act independently when performing Government new clause 9—Northern Ireland: information any functions or duties under this Part.’. about financial resources. Amendment 116, page 8, line 29, leave out clause 12. New clause 17—Extension of scope of legal aid in Amendment 104, in clause 12, page 8, line 31, leave complex cases— out from ‘station’ to end of line 20 on page 9. ‘(1) Civil legal services other than services described in Part 1 Amendment 125, page 8, line 35, leave out subsections (2) of Schedule 1 are to be available to an individual under this Part to (7). if subsection (2) is satisfied. Amendment 90, page 9, line 27, leave out subsection (9) (2) This subsection is satisfied where the Director— and insert— (a) has made a complex case determination in relation to the individual and the services, and ‘(9) Sections 20 and 26(2) do not apply in relation to this section’. (b) has determined that the individual qualifies for the services in accordance with this Part, Amendment 148, page 21, line 7, leave out clause 26. (and has not withdrawn either determination). Government amendments 1, 2 and 25 to 27 (3) For the purposes of subsection (2), a complex case Amendment 69, in schedule 4, page 130, line 36, at determination is a determination— end insert— (a) that the individual has complex, interconnected needs ‘(3A) A transfer scheme shall make pension provision and in relation to which the individual requires compensation provision for and in respect of persons who become comprehensive civil legal services, and employed in the civil service of the State under paragraph 1 which (b) not all of those civil legal services would otherwise be is at least as favourable as the pension provision and compensation available to the individual because they do not all fall provision applicable to them immediately before they ceased to be within the scope of Schedule 1.’. employees of the Legal Services Commission.’. 953 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 954 Punishment of Offenders Bill Government amendment 64 for the purposes of new clause 9 and new schedule 3, Amendment 71, page 131, line 9, at end insert— which create the information gateway, and for the purposes ‘“compensation provision” means the provision of of clauses 38 to 40. I should point out that under compensation under a compensation scheme;’. paragraph 2(4) of new schedule 3, it will be a criminal Amendment 70, page 131, line 14, at end insert— offence to use or disclose information contrary to the provisions of paragraph 2. ‘“pension provision” means the provision of pension and other benefits under an occupational pension Government amendments 25 and 64 to 68 relate to scheme;’. the transfer of LSC employees to the civil service Government amendments 65, 137, 66 to 68, 138, 19 when the LSC is abolished. The powers currently set and 54 out in the Bill include a power, in schedule 4, for the Lord Chancellor to make transfer schemes to transfer Mr Djanogly: We now move on to, or perhaps I to the Lord Chancellor or the Secretary of State the should say back to, legal aid. When we discussed legal LSC’s rights, powers, duties and liabilities under or in aid on our first day on Report, we had two very constructive, connection with an LSC occupational pension albeit lengthy, debates in which I took more than three scheme, of which there are currently two, or compensation dozen interventions. That was partly the reason, along scheme. The occupational pension and compensation with the many valuable contributions that were made, scheme arrangements for LSC employees are different why we were unable to cover all the groupings— from those for existing civil servants. When the [Interruption.] I know that that disappointed a number employees transfer to the civil service and become civil of hon. Members in all parts of the House. servants, they will join the principal civil service pension scheme. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Let Amendment 64 confers new powers upon the Lord us not start where we left off the other day. Let us see if Chancellor that can be exercised as part of any transfer we can make progress. We do not want to run out of scheme. Proposed new sub-paragraph (6A), set out in time, and I am sure that those on both Front Benches amendment 64, allows for the Lord Chancellor to apply want to make good time. legislation with modifications as far as it is necessary to Mr Djanogly: I want to try to avoid delay today, so I give effect to any transfer scheme. That is appropriate shall speak to Government amendments now and respond when transfer schemes are of an administrative nature to the points made in debate later, rather than pre-empting relating to the specific issues in question. For example, in my opening remarks what hon. Members may have it will allow the Lord Chancellor to provide that an to say about their amendments. aspect of pensions legislation applies in a particular way to that particular scheme. It will assist, as appropriate, Government new clause 4, which is a technical in enabling the continuation of the LSC pension scheme amendment, has two purposes. First, it seeks to provide or schemes after the abolition of the LSC so that they clarity about the role of the director of legal aid casework, can continue for the benefit of their pensioner and by ensuring that the exercise of the functions of the preserved members. Those are members who have office is on behalf of the Crown, and that service as the contributed to the schemes before leaving LSC employment director is service in the civil service of the state. The second and either draw a pension from the scheme or will be purpose of new clause 4 is to ensure that the Lord entitled to do so in future. Chancellor is treated as a corporation sole for the purposes of part 1 of the Bill. For compensation scheme arrangements, as well as The new clause is necessary in order to clarify the allowing the modification of legislation, proposed new position in relation to the Lord Chancellor’s ability to sub-paragraph (6B), set out in amendment 64, provides hold an interest in land for those purposes, and so that the transfer scheme may amend or otherwise modify applies to charges that transfer from the Legal Services the existing LSC compensation scheme. That will allow Commission to the Lord Chancellor at the point when compensation arrangements for LSC employees transferring the LSC is abolished, and for future charges to be taken to the civil service to be brought into line with those of over property under clause 24. The statutory charge is other civil servants over a transitional period. the charge that arises under clause 24 on any property Amendment 65 reflects the fact that when LSC recovered or preserved, including costs, by a legally employees transfer to the civil service there will no aided person in respect of the amounts spent by the longer be any active members of the two current LSC Lord Chancellor in securing their legal aid services and occupational pension schemes, known as the No. 3 and any other amounts payable by them under clauses 22 No. 4 pension schemes. The amendment provides the and 23. The amendment is essential, as the current Lord Chancellor with the power to make a scheme to value of charges held by the LSC is £212 million. merge the two residual pension schemes. It is explicit Government new clause 9 and new schedule 3 make that a scheme exercising this power must not result in provision on information sharing in relation to checking members of the pension schemes, or other beneficiaries a person’s financial eligibility for legal aid in Northern under the schemes, being deprived of any rights accrued Ireland. They replicate for Northern Ireland the information prior to the merger. gateway for England and Wales created by clause 21 The LSC’s No. 3 pension scheme has fewer than and further provided for in clause 32. Government 100 pensioner and preserved members, and no current amendments 26 and 27 are technical amendments LSC staff members. The No. 4 scheme is for current that make it clear that regulations made under new staff and also has a number of pensioner and preserved schedule 3 will be prescribed not by the Lord Chancellor members. At present there is much duplication in the but by the Northern Ireland Assembly. Government administration of the No. 3 and No. 4 schemes, such as amendment 54 is also a technical amendment that producing two sets of accounts and actuarial valuations. makes it clear that the Bill extends to Northern Ireland Merging the schemes would allow us to cut significantly 955 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 956 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Djanogly] Fovargue), amendment 148, tabled by Liberal Democrat Members, who for some reason rejected a similar the administration costs of running two trust-based amendment I tabled, and new clause 43, tabled by the schemes. The amendment will also give the power to hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan wind up an LSC occupational pension scheme. Edwards), which is a very good one. I will say at the Amendment 25 corrects a slip in clause 38(7)(j). The outset that we support all those amendments. I will not intention was not to make regulations that contain deal with amendment 116, which stands in my name, free-standing provision that modifies an Act either directly because my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington or indirectly, subject to the affirmative procedure. (Mrs Chapman) will make a contribution on that later. Amendments 66 to 68 clarify the fact that the regulation- For the avoidance of doubt, I will say at the outset that making power provided to the Lord Chancellor under the Opposition will press amendment 116 to a vote, and paragraph 10 of schedule 4 can be used in connection other hon. Members may wish to press their amendments not only with transfers affected by schedule 4, but with to a vote. schemes under schedule 4, meaning schemes dealing Amendment 123 deals with a fairly straightforward with something other than a transfer. point, but an important one, which is in no way party Government amendments 137 and 138 concern political. The independence of the new director has schedule 4 to the Bill, which governs transfers of employees raised considerable alarm and concern across the professions and assets following the abolition of the LSC. They and the voluntary sector, and indeed with anyone who are purely technical amendments that simplify existing deals regularly with legal aid. We attempted many times provisions. Paragraph 10(1) of schedule 4 currently in Committee, with a variety of amendments, to try to allows the Lord Chancellor to make consequential push at this and get the Government to give a little. We supplementary, incidental or transitional provision by asked for an appeals process, a vetting process before regulation, and paragraph 10(2)(b) specifies separately appointment, which would give some independence, that such regulations may include transitory or and for assurances in relation to the civil service, which savings provision. Rather than continue to separate will be working in this area. Every amendment, as was these related provisions, for the purposes of simplification the case throughout the Committee’s proceedings, was amendment 137 brings them together in a revised rejected. I hope—this is the case in other common law paragraph 10(1) and Amendment 138 amends paragraph jurisdictions which have moved to a similar system—that 10(2) to reflect that simplification. That mirrors an the Minister is listening to these proposals. This is not identical amendment to clause 115. an issue that divides the parties on the abolition of the Finally, Government amendments 1, 2 and 19 are Legal Services Commission, but it is an issue that minor and technical amendments to clause 32 and strongly divides the parties on the adverse influence, be schedule 5, consequential on the removal in Committee it perceived or real, that the Government will bring to of what was then clause 71. bear on to the director post once it is firmly ensconced within the Department. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): If the There is a trend in this Bill towards Government Minister was sincere when he said in his opening remarks control and authoritarianism, and we will see it when we that we will make good progress and deal with as many debate clause 12, whereby the same director of legal aid of the groups of amendments as we can today, I applaud will get the power to decide whether legal aid is granted him for it, but it is a challenging task. There has been a to those in extremis—in the worst circumstances—when statement so we have barely four hours left to debate they have been arrested. We also see the trend in huge chunks of the Bill, which is impractical. It will no relation to the constraints on the powers of the doubt be assisted by the fact that, with the exception of judiciary, and, although I doubt that we will get time to the Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, who has debate remand today, I note that the Government wish just appeared, there is not a single Conservative Back severely to tie the hands of magistrates and judges in Bencher here. [Interruption.] I apologise to the hon. relation to whom they can remand in custody. All the Member for Hendon (Mr Offord); I thought he was a time, these measures restrict either citizens’ rights or the Liberal Democrat. I withdraw that slur on his character rights of independent parties, whether they be the director immediately. or the judiciary, to make decisions. There is a serious point. We had a disgraceful situation in the House on Monday when the Minister called in Conservative Back Benchers, one by one, to speak on 2pm domestic violence and clinical negligence, particularly I heard quite a chilling statement from the Ministry as they affect the most severe injuries and brain-damaged on the radio this morning. I do not know whether other children, and to waste time. By wasting time and then hon. Members heard the compelling interview with voting against amendments that would deal with those Christopher Jefferies on the “Today” programme, which issues, the Government prevented us from moving on to I will not dwell on, because we hope to have time to a substantive discussion on legal aid. I will not dwell on debate no win, no fee later this afternoon. At the end of that point, because I wanted to move on, but I hope that the interview no one from the Ministry of Justice—not in discussing these amendments, of which there are a the Minister, not anyone else—was prepared to come broad range, we will be able to do justice to that forward. There was simply a statement to this effect: important subject. “We believe that deserving cases will still be able to be I will speak principally to amendment 123, which brought by no win, no fee, but not cases which are too stands in my name. I will get my contributions out of costly or undeserving.” the way in one go by speaking to new clause 17, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Mr Djanogly: We are talking about legal aid. 957 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 958 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Mr Slaughter: The presenter made a mistake—I hope leave aside operational issues, such as the fact that, the Minister is not making the same one—in relation to according to its own website, 20% of Atos’s 141 medical talking about legal aid, as presenters often do, but I assessment centres do not have wheelchair access, because, assure the House that Mr Jefferies was clearly talking according to a newspaper report, one third of those about conditional fee agreements and no win, no fee. refused DLA by Atos have appealed to the first-tier The answer is— tribunals, and 39% of decisions have been overturned. Furthermore, the report states: Mr Djanogly: Yes, but we are talking about legal aid. “The tribunals service…has had to double its capacity in the social security section to deal with the large number of appeals, Mr Slaughter: I know the Minister does not want to recruiting an extra 170 paid medical panel members.” hear this, but in relation to the director the point is that In a letter to The Guardian, leading mental health the Government wish to decide who has merit and who charities and a senior consultant from the Royal College does not. That is the charge that the Government have of Psychiatrists say: to answer, and in this case they will do so only by “We’ve found that the prospect of incapacity benefit reassessment ensuring the independence of the director. is causing huge amounts of distress and tragically there have Let me move on, because we are in the midst of a already been cases where people have taken their own life following radical reform of the social welfare system. The Secretary problems with changes to their benefits.” of State for Work and Pensions has embarked on These are not just economic issues; they profoundly restructuring the way benefits are assessed, calculated affect the most vulnerable individuals. and provided, local authorities have had budgets radically The Government’s proposals will seriously damage reduced, and a housing benefit cap is being introduced. access to justice for the most vulnerable in society, and In short, the benefits system is in a period of turmoil, their own impact assessment shows that there will be a and as a consequence the system of checks and balances disproportionate impact on women. Similarly, there is on state decision making through the first-tier tribunals the potential for the cuts to impact disproportionately is also significantly under pressure, such that more staff on black and ethnic minority clients and on those with are being taken on daily to deal with a growing number disabilities. of appeals against decisions taken by Jobcentre Plus. That is something the Minister himself acknowledges. When in October last year the coalition produced its When it was put to him that groups with protected Green Paper on the reform of legal aid in England and characteristics would be affected, he dismissed it, as Wales, we were shocked to see that there were cuts of only a Conservative Minister can, although the Liberal £450 million, as defined in the latest impact assessment, Democrats are getting there, by saying, “Well, that’s and that they overwhelmingly came from civil legal aid. because they are disproportionately represented among Things such as education, employment, welfare benefits, the most vulnerable.”That is the logic of the Government’s debt, housing matters and clinical negligence were taken case—“Because vulnerable people get legal aid, and we out of scope, either in their entirety, as in the case of are cutting it, what do you expect to happen?” Those employment, welfare benefits and clinical negligence, or principles show an absolute absence of moral guidance. substantially, as in the case of debt, housing and education. Means-testing will also change. The Government have Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I understand proposed the abolition of capital passporting, by which the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but is he proposing those receiving certain income-based benefits are cuts in other areas of legal aid in order to maintain his automatically eligible for legal aid, and the introduction objective of cutting the overall cost while putting legal of a new minimum capital contribution, a personal aid back in place in those fields? financial contribution towards legal costs. The philosophy behind the cuts is explained in the Mr Slaughter: I was going to deal with that at the end Government’s impact assessment, in which they state: of my remarks, but let me do so now. I am grateful to “Legal aid may be regarded as a redistributive transfer of the right hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity resources from taxpayers to those who are most needy, in relation to do so, because two days ago the Minister said, “Oh, to both the nature and merits of their case and also to their the Labour party wants to reinstate £245 million of financial position… The Government may consider intervening if cuts.” On the same day, however, he put out a press there are strong enough failures in the way markets operate…or if release saying that the Labour party wanted to reinstate there are strong enough failures in existing government interventions”. £64 million of cuts, and I have grown tired of responding The amendments under discussion simply seek to address to him. He has heard my response from this Dispatch the Government’s failure to abide by those principles as Box, in Westminster Hall and in Committee time and set down in their own impact assessment. We are in a again, and it is simply this: we would not have made at period of great need and of great changes to the system, present the cuts to social welfare legal aid. and many meritorious cases are being referred to tribunal. The Minister quantifies those cuts as £64 million, but By definition, the financial position of those requiring why did he not proceed with the final parts of Lord help with welfare benefits, employment law, debt and Carter’s review and go through the criminal tendering housing is necessarily the most precarious of any in exercise, which was in place and ready to go when the society, and £70 a week is often all that stands between Government took office last year, and which included some of my constituents and utter destitution. They are savings that might have raised twice that sum? I anticipate in a desperate place. the figures changing. The figures on savings have changed Let me give the House one example, in relation to from £350 million to £450 million within two impact eligibility for disability living allowance. There are so assessments, but, without being more precise than that, many problems with the private contractor Atos that we believe that if the Government looked for efficiencies many seriously ill people are being judged fit for work. I in the criminal legal aid system, first they would save 959 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 960 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Slaughter] cases from becoming more complex, difficult to resolve and commensurately expensive. The legal aid Green more money than they are by cutting social welfare Paper suggests a shift to telephone advisory services, legal aid, and secondly there would not be the same and this brings us to amendment 148. Although these social or financial consequences. methods are an efficient and often effective means of The Green Paper talks frequently about the possibility delivering certain types of advice, clients presenting of self-representation as a reason for withdrawing legal with complex or chronic problems gain far better outcomes aid provision, but data provided in answer to a written from face-to-face advice. parliamentary question indicate that there are considerable Research by the Legal Action Group has highlighted differences in success rates between those with and the issues faced by the most vulnerable in utilising those without representation. Owing to a lack of telephone advisory services. It found that full-time employees representation, 51,223 meritorious cases that were successful were the most likely to access an advice service through in 2010 at the first-tier tribunals, many of which involved the telephone line or the internet, at 43%, whereas applicants for DLA, incapacity benefit, jobseeker’s people in the lowest social class, DE, were least likely to allowance and so forth, would not have been successful access advice through an advice line or the internet, at if the proposed cuts had been in place. The changes will 26%. This class of people was also the most likely to close or severely reduce the operation of law centres, experience a social welfare law problem. The Minister’s citizens advice bureaux and hundreds of independent own impact assessment says that the bottom 20%, in advice centres, and limiting the scope of issues which terms of income, will represent 80% of those who suffer legal aid-funded advisers can help with means that they from the withdrawal of these services. Overall, people will not be able to solve people’s problems fully. of social class DE are twice as likely as people in all New clause 17, in the name of my hon. Friend the other social classes to experience problems with debts Member for Makerfield addresses precisely that issue. or benefits. At the end of Monday’s debate, I gave the example of the Wiltshire law centre in the constituency of the hon. Issues facing the most vulnerable people include Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland). That will language, comprehension and somewhat more prosaic lose 90% of its funding, and that is not untypical of the economic issues such as the expense of calling an 0845 cuts being made. In most cases they are above 80%. number from a pay-as-you-go mobile when trying to get The specific issue that is dealt with my hon. Friend’s advice upon being rejected for jobseeker’s allowance. new clause is the interconnectivity of people’s problems. Citizens Advice has noticed a dramatic rise in the We are all too familiar, as constituency MPs, with the volume of cases and the number of people seeking individual who comes in with two plastic bags full of advice in this recession. Advice has been focused on paper and is unable to convey the scale of their distress, debt, housing, employment and difficulty accessing the let alone the complexity of their problems, which may benefit system. For example, between April 2008 and include unpaid debts, threats of eviction, underlying 2009, CABs in England and Wales saw daily inquiries mental health problems and the inability to access the relating to redundancy increase by 125%. Local authority welfare benefit system. Sometimes we can help, and I cuts combined with the cuts in the Ministry of Justice pay tribute, as I am sure all hon. Members do, to the have inflicted a double whammy on law centres, CABs constituency staff who have developed phenomenal and third sector organisations. Many organisations that skills at unpicking these issues and dealing sympathetically are staffed by a mixture of volunteers and modestly with them. In many cases, however, legal expert help is paid staff will be forced to close or reduce staff and needed, but that help will now be severely compromised. service breadth, depth and reach. Indeed, that is already If one is allowed to deal only with the threat of eviction happening. but not with the underlying issues of accessing benefits We agree that the legal aid budget needs to be contained, and dependency on debt, one is working with one hand as I have already said in response to the intervention of tied behind one’s back. the Chair of the Justice Committee, the right hon. The exceptions to the withdrawal of legal aid in Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), certain cases, such as when an applicant for legal aid is and that ways of making savings need to be found. at risk of homelessness, are nonsensical distinctions. When we were in power we did not shy away from People who come for aid early on, while they still have taking those decisions and containing the budget. We manageable rent arrears, can see their case deteriorate had begun and were continuing to implement the rapidly and drastically. The legal aid that would help recommendations of Lord Carter of Coles and we exactly those people has been withdrawn, and that is believe that those outstanding recommendations should Shelter’s No. 1 priority for what should be restored. Let have been implemented by this Government. Frankly, me add, at this point, that we support the hon. Member we are at a loss to understand why the Government for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr in his wish to undo have not looked at the scope of criminal legal aid or at what is a calumny in the Bill—measures allowing the how it is delivered in this country, preferring instead to Secretary of State by order further to restrict what is in target the poorest and most vulnerable. I accept that scope for legal aid, but not to expand it. I do not know those changes would not have been popular with all the whether the hon. Gentleman is going to press his legal sector but they would have delivered substantial amendment to a vote tonight but I hope that, if he has savings, which would have been greater than the total an opportunity to speak, the Minister will give an cuts to social welfare legal aid we have discussed this indication that that glaring error in the Bill will be week. Let me pay tribute to my colleague the noble corrected. Lord Bach who, as Minister with responsibility for legal The cost of dealing with a single case of homelessness aid, took exactly that line. He was prepared to be very has been estimated at £50,000 by Shelter. Early intervention tough on his own profession but he always protected is an extremely efficient and cost-effective way of preventing social welfare legal aid. 961 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 962 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill 2.15 pm up to six hours and questioned without the presence of We oppose the cuts because they affect the most a solicitor. Following that case in the Supreme Court vulnerable in society and run the risk of decimating the last year, the Lord Advocate issued guidelines, and social welfare and legal advice community. Even at this emergency legislation has since been enacted, to provide stage, I urge the Government to rethink their plans. If suspects who are detained by the police with the right to they will not, I shall ask again, and I am pleased to see “a private consultation with a solicitor”. that hon. Members from all parties, save the Conservative That can be either before questioning or at any stage party, have tabled amendments on this matter for debate during questioning. Moreover, experience has shown today. I hope—I say this in the spirit of wanting to that it is often more expensive to administer means-testing protect those of our constituents who are most vulnerable than to operate it. Cutting out legal aid in police stations and most reliant and who need access to justice more will lead to false economy, not least because the courts than ever today—that those amendments will be pressed will be clogged up with unmeritorious or unprepared to a vote by hon. Members, particularly those on the cases, or proceedings without a solicitor present will be Liberal Democrat Benches, and that they will see fit to open to legal challenge. support our amendments when we push them forward. Early advice in a police station may save many social and economic costs, most of which must be picked up Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): In the interests by other public services. Moreover, who will ask what of brevity I shall speak only to amendment 116 to someone’s earnings are, or how much their mortgage is? which I have added my name. It has been more than Those questions will have to be asked in extremely 30 years since the National Consumer Council referred stressful situations. Will the Minister explain how the to access to advice as the fourth right of citizenship. It proposals will work without the whole process becoming was ahead of its time in predicting the coming of an extremely unwieldy? information age in which people’s ability to live full lives Furthermore, will the Minister explain why such a as responsible citizens would depend on access to organised, provision is in the Bill when I and colleagues received specialist information in order to navigate complex assurances that there was no intention of the clause ever consumer choices, labour markets and state bureaucracy coming into effect? If the Government have no intention and law. In no area could that be more important than of using the power, why leave it in the Bill? The Minister in relation to legal advice in a police station, where the has effectively asked us to sign a blank cheque, but presence of a lawyer acting for a defendant is crucial, assured us that he will never have to cash it. Much as I although I might not have thought that between 1990 trust the Minister, that is no way to propose or to and 1998 when I was a serving police officer in Edinburgh. implement new legislation, because it leaves pointless Solicitors are there to ensure that suspects’ rights are regulation in statute, which because of assurances from respected, that they are not physically abused, that their Ministers might never have been properly scrutinised. confessions are not forged and that they are not detained That is a bad precedent, and a dangerous one, which for longer than is legally allowed. The presence of a should not allowed to continue. lawyer not only protects defendants from police abuse but protects the police from false allegations by defendants Yvonne Fovargue: I rise to speak to new clause 17, about what happened during an interrogation, for example. tabled in my name. It is well known that many problems Clause 12 provides the Secretary of State with the in social welfare law are interconnected and that clients flexibility to subject legal aid in police stations to a invariably approach agencies with clusters of problems, system of means-testing. The Ministry of Justice has which is why the social welfare law cluster of housing, made it clear that such proposals would be modelled on benefit, debt and employment was introduced in the the system currently operating in Scotland, where people first place. As my hon. Friend the Member for who earn more than a certain amount—in Scotland, a Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) said, all MPs have seen weekly disposable income of £105—have to pay a constituents who arrive with carrier bags of unopened contribution towards the cost of their legal aid. The mail from various agencies. It is impossible to deal with current system of police station advice in Scotland is one issue—for example, electricity disconnection—without only a year old, but the Law Society of Scotland has dealing with problems such as tax credit underpayment already stated that it is complex process to operate and and illegal deduction of wages. It is the natural state of to explain to clients, many of whom are in a vulnerable affairs that one problem leads to another, and the merit situation. of not-for-profit agencies dealing with that cluster is the The experience north of the border also shows that availability of specialisms in a one-stop shop, and the the provision of adequate verification undoubtedly ability to drill down to the root cause of the issue, which lengthens the suspect’s time in a police station and that may be wrongful refusal of benefits or unfair dismissal the solicitor often has no evidential proof that the client leading to debt issues and potential homelessness. is eligible or of what their contribution should be. My new clause would allow agencies to deal with all Solicitors also find that the prospects of claiming the the issues. They would not have to take a piecemeal contribution from the client are limited when the detention approach, but could make difficult decisions on which ends without criminal charges. Consequently, in Scotland issues are legally aidable and which are not, so that the in the past year, uptake of advice in police stations has individual would not be left to struggle with the complex fallen to around 25% of cases—roughly half that in non-legally aidable issues alone. England and Wales. Make no mistake; the issues that the Government The Minister will also know that the Scottish situation wish to remove from scope are complex. The welfare has been somewhat complicated recently by the judgment benefits that the Government wish to remove from in the Cadder case. Previously, when I was a serving scope completely have 20 volumes of guidance, thousands officer, suspects could be detained without charge for of pages of case law, and thousands of statutory 963 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 964 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Yvonne Fovargue] The most vulnerable will bear the brunt of the cuts. The Legal Services Commission’s figures show that instruments, clauses and schedules. The Child Poverty 62% of those affected by removal of welfare benefits Action Group’s handbook on welfare benefits and tax from scope will be those with disabilities. Indeed, there credits alone has 1,600 pages. In 2010, the Department is concern about whether agencies will be able to provide for Work and Pensions issued 8,690 pages of advice to advice even to those fortunate individuals who still decision makers. That advice is not specialist. Can qualify for legal aid. The cuts to social welfare law people rely on help from Jobcentre Plus or the Benefits disproportionately affect not-for-profit advice agencies Agency, the agencies that turned down their original with 77% of the funding withdrawn going from those claim? I do not think so. agencies. Some 54% of citizens advice bureaux and The Bill is being enacted at precisely the same time as more than 70% of law centres believe that they will not the introduction of universal credit, which will affect exist after 2013 if this Bill becomes law. There is no 19 million individual claimants and 8 million households. clear plan or strategy for the sector, just death by a I remember the change from supplementary benefit to thousand cuts. income support. The number of people who needed Wigan metropolitan borough council currently has advice rocketed, and many important cases were appealed 3,080 cases funded by legal aid, but 2,342 will go out of by advice agencies, which had far-reaching consequences scope if the Bill is enacted. At a rough estimate of for many people, not just individual claimants. That is 300 cases per caseworker, resources will drop from being denied in the Bill. 10 specialists to help my constituents to 2. Their ability In 2010, under the current system, there were 160,000 to deal with even the severely curtailed legal aid cases appeals, more than half of which were decided in favour will be massively impacted, let alone their ability to deal of the claimant. To remove support from individuals with linked issues. Will the Minister say what cross- who have been wrongly and unlawfully denied their Departmental plans are in place to deal with the benefit—in more than half of cases that was indeed the destabilisation of the not-for-profit advice sector, and decision—and to deal with the rent arrears caused by how will linked issues, which are often the root cause of that denial of benefit at the point of eviction, is perverse an immediate threat of eviction, be dealt with in future? in the extreme. I want to address briefly the issue of whether those Early intervention and an holistic approach save money. who qualify will be able to navigate the system and Even the Minister admitted that early advice may reduce reach the help they need and not fall at the first barrier—the costs further down the road, but he chose to save telephone gateway. In the all-too-inadequate time allowed £1 now at the cost, according to research from the in Committee, when the agencies presented their evidence, National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, of they all stated that the telephone gateway will be yet £8.80 for every benefit case, £7.13 for every employment another barrier and will deny some clients access to the case, £2.98 for every debt case and £2.34 for every services they need. Indeed, Steve Hynes, director of the housing case. This is blinkered short-termism at its Legal Action Group, commented on research by that most extreme. group—my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith referred to it. He said: I would like to give a couple of examples of linked “if you want a legal system that people do not use, deliver it problems where dealing with just the issue that remains through telephone advice because the people who pass the means in scope will be counter productive. A client had multiple test tend to be the ones who do not have telephones” priority and non-priority debts, including rent arrears, In my experience, individuals with a number of problems and was facing the threat of possession proceedings. often cannot focus on the most serious issue for many She had prioritised credit card repayments due to pressure reasons. It often takes a considerable amount of time applied by her bank and debt collection agencies, and and experience to untangle the knotted ball of problems had fallen behind with her rent. She suffered mental into single strands, and then to decide which is the most health problems, and her teenage daughter was becoming immediate and serious. For example, I saw a client who ill because of the stress facing her mother. She was was most upset because, for the first time, she could not working and studying to improve her situation, but had pay Provident. She was really upset that when it came to lost benefits and was appealing that, with help. Under collecting the debt, her neighbour would know that she the Government’s proposals, there would be no help had problems and could not pay. Eventually, she let me with that appeal. The only help available would be to examine all the other documents that she had, and it deal with the immediate repossession issue. The credit was apparent that she had been paying the company at card and other debts would not be dealt with and I the expense of her rent and was in danger of eviction. surmise that it is extremely likely that that client would To tease that information out over the telephone without return in exactly the same position, or worse, at a later sight of the documents that she eventually handed over date. would be almost impossible, and I believe that that A constituent had been dismissed from employment client would have been told her issue was not legally and was being assisted with an unfair dismissal claim. aidable and sent away still prioritising the wrong debt Stress was making them ill and unable to work, and and facing eviction. there was also an appeal against benefit sanctions for leaving their job. Due to the lack of income, the bills were mounting up and mortgage arrears were accruing. 2.30 pm Under the new proposals the client would have to wait I urge the Government at least to pilot the telephone until they were in imminent danger of losing their gateway and to listen to the concerns of the advice home, and that would be the only issue within the scope providers, who are, after all, the experts in the field. In of the scheme. If ever there were examples of false fact, in the rather protracted debate on Monday, which economy, surely those are such. did not allow us to reach the removal from scope of the 965 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 966 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill majority of social welfare law, the Government were at Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman pains to assure us that they were listening and had will know that the Law Society, the Bar Council, the listened to all the respondents to the consultation, which Family Law Bar Association and the Lord Chief Justice had one of the largest numbers of respondents that we have all indicated that the changes made by the Government have ever seen—over 3,000. In that case, why were the in this Bill will curtail access to the legal system but that 93% of agencies and individuals who responded, disagreeing the projected savings will not be obtained. Given that with the Government’s proposals to remove these areas the right hon. Gentleman sat on the Bill Committee, from scope, not heeded? They certainly do not feel their perhaps he can tell me why all those organisations are views were valued or that any coherent and valid response wrong but the Government and the Bill he supports are was received, apart from on short-term money saving, correct. which, as has been pointed out, will lead to many increased costs later on. Tom Brake: In a situation where funding is going to The new clause would at least mitigate the untenable be withdrawn from organisations, it is not surprising situation of agencies being funded to deal with only one that their response is that they do not favour it. The issue when they know that the root cause of the problem Government need to monitor very carefully some of the still remains, and it would put them back, in some small concerns have been raised about the impact of withdrawing way, to being able to deal with the individual as an legal aid, and we have already had assurances that that individual with a group of issues and problems, thus will be the case. preventing the inevitable recurrence. I urge hon. Members to support the new clause. Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend give way? Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I rise to speak principally about new clause 17, which was Tom Brake: I will give way one last time and then tabled by the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne move on to new clause 17. Fovargue). Elizabeth Truss: Does my right hon. Friend agree that Before I do so, I should like to comment on some of those organisations have an interest in pushing amendment 116. My hon. Friend the Member for up the legal aid bill because they are its main recipients? Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) made a cogent case for deleting clause 12. The Minister rightly said in Tom Brake: The hon. Lady makes a point that is Committee that worth considering. Clearly, certain organisations are “the practicalities are the greatest stumbling block, and the costs financial beneficiaries of some of the funding, but I do could be significant.”––[Official Report, Legal Aid, Sentencing not want to throw out all the concerns that have been and Punishment of Offenders Public Bill Committee, 8 September 2011; c. 437.] raised because, equally, there are legitimate concerns that the Government need to monitor very carefully. My hon. Friend underlined that that had been the experience in Scotland. It is therefore clear what the I turn to new clause 17. I had hoped that during the Government’s response should be. For the sake of debate on Monday we would reach the group of clarity and succinctness, the Bill could appropriately amendments on social welfare in which my amendment lose clause 12. 149 on complex welfare benefits was listed. Also in the group was amendment 131, which sought to ensure that advice on housing repossessions was available sooner. I Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): I think regret that we did not reach that group, as, I am sure, I am right in saying that the right hon. Gentleman is does my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen speaking to an amendment that would effectively get rid Lloyd), who is chairman of the all-party group on of the idea of means-testing in police stations. I agree Citizens Advice. However, new clause 17 touches on that this is an issue of great concern to Members in all many aspects of what was included in amendment 149. parts of the House. I am surprised, however, that when I welcome the fact that the hon. Member for Makerfield he sat on the Bill Committee he did absolutely nothing has put the matter up for debate today because it about it when he could have supported my amendment provides an opportunity to discuss some of the points or that of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd that would have been raised on amendment 149. Her (Mr Llwyd). definition in trying to ensure that legal aid is extended to complex cases is Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his “that the individual has complex, interconnected needs” intervention. I am not sure whether he is saying that I should not be raising the point now, but that is what I and that am doing. “not all of those…legal services would otherwise be available to the individual”. Karl Turner rose— It is reasonable to speculate that many, or most, individuals with complex and interconnected needs will also have Tom Brake: I am not going to give way. The point has welfare benefit issues that will often also be complex. been raised, it is on the record. I am sure that the Under the Government’s proposals, welfare benefit cases, Minister will have heard it. My right hon. Friend the complex or otherwise, are excluded from the scope of Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon legal aid. Hughes) will speak about this in relation to amendment 148, I acknowledge that the scope of the hon. Lady’s new and I am sure that he will echo the concerns raised by clause is slightly different from what was proposed in the hon. Member for Makerfield about the telephone amendment 149. However, if it had been restricted to gateway. individuals with complex and interconnected needs who 967 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 968 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Tom Brake] Tom Brake: We have rightly highlighted issues such as criminal negligence in earlier debates, and this afternoon require legal help with complex welfare benefit issues, I we will focus on libel and slander cases that affect a suspect that we would have been discussing exactly the relatively small number of people. same area of legal aid, because virtually every individual who has a benefit advice problem involving issues of Karl Turner: Give us a clue Tom! legal complexity, significant evidential hurdles or daunting Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. adjudication processes will have complex and interconnected needs. According to Citizens Advice, that more targeted Tom Brake: As I stated earlier, the simple change in approach would help to achieve a compromise position new clause 12 affects a very large number of people—up whereby more complex cases can be covered by the legal to 100,000. As I mentioned in the debate yesterday, it is help system. When we asked Citizens Advice what it incumbent on Members who propose alternatives that would identify as a single priority as regards what the mean the Government will spend more when they are Government should change, that is what it proposed. trying to address a very large deficit to identify where Citizens Advice has calculated the cost impact of its funding for such proposals would come from. I hope we proposal. It says that the current welfare benefits advice have an opportunity to debate amendment 144 this spend is £25 million on just under 140,000 cases, and afternoon, because that would more than adequately that restricting it to complex welfare benefit cases covering cover the expenditure that the amendments would only reviews and appeals, which applies to two thirds of necessitate. the current welfare benefit cases, would cost £16.5 million Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): The and help around 100,000 people. The cost could fall right hon. Gentleman talks about the need for Government further if, as the Government and all hon. Members Departments to look at how they interconnect. From intend in practice, decision making first time round is my constituency case load experience, a significant number improved and becomes much more effective. The CAB of those 100,000 people are likely to develop mental calculation is that if we were to improve first-time health problems as a result of the predicament in which decision making by 30%, the costs of that provision they find themselves. Surely money invested in provision could fall to £12 million. for them would save the Department of Health quite considerable moneys. Is he confident that coalition Sir Alan Beith: Is it not absurd that the Government Front Benchers have been talking to each other to do should be scrabbling around for money to meet the that sort of cost-benefit analysis? costs of bad decision making and bad communication between Departments and those who are affected by Tom Brake: The hon. Lady’s intervention is a fair their decisions? Ought not the Government’s priority be one. I have raised the knock-on impact on other to ensure that those Departments change those processes, Departments directly with the Minister. I have received which they are more likely to do if they have an incentive, assurances that, for instance, the Department of Health which is provided by the fact that their budget will meet has analysed the impact and does not see significant some of the costs if they do not do so? knock-on costs. That is the assurance that I have been given. Tom Brake: There has not been much consensus in I conclude by urging the Minister to make a clear the Chamber, but I suspect that there is broad agreement statement that the Government believe that the issue of on that point. complex welfare benefits is still up for negotiation, and that they will make progress on it in the Lords. If he Mr Slaughter: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely cannot give such an assurance, and if the hon. Member right. The Liberty briefing paper states that the for Makerfield presses new clause 17 to a Division, it is with regret that I would feel obliged to support it. I “Community Links advice service records that…73% of the await the Minister’s response with interest. benefits related cases handled by their staff arose as a result of errors on the part of the Department of Work and Pensions.” 2.45 pm The Opposition agree with him, but we are where we Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I have are, and particularly at this time of change, we need never been a tribal politician, and I understand the certainty that those people will be properly represented. dynamics of the House, but I am very disappointed that I think he said that he would not support new clause 17, the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) but will he support amendment 116 and later, the new and his colleague, the right hon. Member for Carshalton clause in his name or the new clause relating to the and Wallington (Tom Brake), had nothing to say on this Dowlers, which is in the name of my hon. Friend the issue in Committee. Worse still, an amendment that Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)? He has given would have dealt with clause 12 was pressed to a Division, assurances outside the House and said that he supports but they declined to vote for it. Indeed, they voted those positions, but he now seems to be resiling from against it. The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and them. Will he and his hon. Friends support those measures? Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) came to the debate in Will he answer that question now? the House on Monday and said that he was interested in dealing with the immigration law aspect in the Bill, but Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his again, his colleagues said nothing about that in those intervention, which is in the tradition of his speeches— lengthy Committee proceedings. The right hon. Gentleman lengthy. He should perhaps have waited until I had said that he would pursue the matter. The modus operandi finished my comments before jumping to any conclusions. of the Liberal Democrat party is to sit on a Committee, do nothing, and then come back on Report and pretend Karl Turner: Will you be supporting it? they have done a hell of a lot. I am rather disappointed 969 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 970 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill in the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington Clause 12 has a grave potential to destabilise access in that regard. I have never been a tribal politician, but to justice for some of the most vulnerable in our society. when I see this kind of behaviour, it makes me a bit sick. As Liberty has pointed out: “Justice requires that, as a bare minimum, all individuals taken Mr Slaughter: I have three headlines from The Guardian, into police custody have access to legal advice and representation which are like a tableau. From September, we have when facing criminal allegations with the potential loss of liberty, “Liberal Democrats urged to defy plans to cut legal disruption and damage to reputation they entail.” aid”; from October, we have “Lib Dem MPs rebel As anyone who has practised criminal law will know, against proposals to cut legal aid funding”; and from the first couple of hours in custody can be crucial in yesterday, we have “Lib Dems have their cake and eat determining whether a case goes further, even on to an it”. That last article features a lovely picture of the right interview. Most people, when facing a police interview, hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom particularly for the first time, are unable to think clearly Brake). They rebel, and at the last moment, they do not. and may not be cognisant of their best interests. As I said in Committee, at the very least the initial interview Mr Llwyd: I have made my point, so I will move on to at the police station should proceed on the basis that the the substance of this important debate, because others solicitor will be paid for the first couple of hours. It wish to speak. seems that the Government were unwilling to listen to that concession. I support the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on new clause 17, the amendments tabled by Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The right hon. the Official Opposition, and new clause 43 and amendment Gentleman makes an important point which I support 162, which were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member completely. However, there is another aspect to this for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). matter. The solicitors who are available to give such However, I am against clause 12, which threatens legal advice usually have great expertise in the criminal through secondary legislation to limit advice and assistance law. If legal aid is removed and there is means-testing, at police stations. I shall not speak for long, but it is the wrong type of professionals—those who do not important to deal with one or two aspects of the measure. have the expertise—will be available to give advice. Clause 12 could thwart the fundamental right to legal advice when held in police custody, which frankly is a Mr Llwyd: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely time when individuals are at their most vulnerable. That right. I note from my own experience that such people the Government did not consult on that measure has are highly qualified for the work that they do. If two been widely criticised by many, and not simply those hours are spent with a solicitor who is well-versed in who allegedly want to raise money. The Lord Chief procedure, a lot of work can be done and people’s Justice is not dependent on legal aid, as far as I am reputations can be saved. It is vital that we do everything aware. we can to retain that provision. I am not doing any I spoke in Committee of the importance of people special pleading for lawyers. I appreciate that there having legal advice and assistance when they are detained should be paring back in some areas of legal aid, but in police stations. No consultation was held, but the this is a fundamental matter of access to justice and it is measure was pushed through. Clause 12(3) is particularly important that the Government listen. worrying, because it would allow the Lord Chancellor It is worth noting Liberty’s point that attempting to to introduce regulations requiring the director to apply introduce means-testing when an individual is in police means-testing provisions if he or she considers them custody is likely to be “unworkable” because it appropriate. It is well known that advice and assistance “requires documentary verification of financial resources”, on arrest are not currently means-tested. The introduction which an individual in custody is clearly unlikely to of that in a police station is utterly inappropriate. What have on his or her person. That would again result in is more, as the Bar Council has pointed out, experience inevitable delay and the wasting of resources. over the years shows that errors and abuses at police stations are responsible for very many miscarriages of justice, which cost not only lives, but finances. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman is making an excellent point. Is he Amendments 90, 104 and 125, which are in my name, aware of any representations on this matter from police would ensure that as a matter of course advice and sources? They must be worried that suspects will be held assistance would continue to be made available for in police stations for an excessive time while documentation individuals held in police custody—they would not be is sought and possibly not found. They will then be subject to any means or merits testing. Amendment 104 forced either to release the suspect or to take them to would remove the word “station”, and amendment 125 court without access to a lawyer, which a lot of police would remove the need for a determination by a director. forces would not be willing to do. Furthermore, amendment 90 would remove subsection (9) and state in its place that Mr Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. “Sections 20 and 26(2) do not apply”. I will say a few words in a minute about the Police and The first point clarifies that means-testing cannot be Criminal Evidence Act 1984, which is important in introduced at police custody. Negating the application this regard. Clause 12 will run a coach and horses of clause 26(2) would ensure that the Lord Chancellor through it. was unable to replace advice in person at police stations I do not believe that clause 12 is well thought through. with What is worse, it undermines one of the core principles “services to be provided by telephone or by other electronic of our justice system: fair and equal access to justice for means.” all citizens. I therefore cannot support it. 971 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 972 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Llwyd] changes to the welfare system by introducing universal credit, replacing disability living allowance and making The Law Society’s head of legal aid, Richard Miller substantial changes to employment and support allowance, has said: it is unwise to withdraw the support for people who are “This is not only an assault on the rights of citizens, it is also a challenging bad decisions. As we all know, in the process logistical nightmare to operate in practice.” of reform, mistakes can be made. As I am sure the He has said that substantial hidden costs undoubtedly House is aware, the introduction of ESA has generated will follow and that it will be “simply unworkable”. a significant volume of appeals and 39% of ESA appeals Max Hill, the chair of the Criminal Bar Association, are still being found in favour of the appellant. The said that the Government were meddling with a position of the Department for Work and Pensions is “fundamental right”: that welfare advice should not be funded on issues of benefit entitlement because advice is available through “To contemplate some sort of qualitative testing to decide when and if a member of the public should receive legal representation DWP agencies such as Jobcentre Plus. However, I strongly and advice…is deeply alarming.” believe that the solution is not to take welfare advice out of the scope of legal aid altogether, but to make appropriate As I said, I will not speak at length, but I will say a distinctions over whether problems involve issues of word about miscarriages of justice. We know of a spate complexity. of miscarriages of justice that occurred in the ’70s and ’80s, and there was an official inquiry into several of Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I support them. The Birmingham Six were jailed for life in 1975 a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Does for pub bombings. The convictions were overturned in he agree that it is inappropriate for people to rely only 1991 after evidence emerged of the police’s fabrication on advice from Jobcentre Plus when they may need of confessions and suppression of evidence. The Guildford advice because they wish to challenge the decisions of Four were convicted of a bombing in the same year. that agency? The conviction was secured on confessions that were obtained through coercion, violence and threats by the Stephen Lloyd: I agree with the hon. Lady. It is good police. They were acquitted in 1989. to see her taking part in the debate, because she sat on the Work and Pensions Committee with me before she Jeremy Corbyn: The right hon. Gentleman is making was promoted to her very high place. She makes a a strong point. However, the Guildford Four were actually strong point that emphasises that the solution is not to the first people to be arrested and convicted under the take welfare advice out of the scope of legal aid altogether, Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1974, but to make appropriate distinctions, as it states in new which meant that they were specifically denied access to clause 17, over whether problems involve issues of anyone at the time of arrest. That was not the case with complexity. The issues that end up before tribunals are the Birmingham Six, who instead were abused in the often extremely complex and involve the interpretation police station. of statutes and case law precedent. It is wholly unrealistic to expect somebody without specialist knowledge to Mr Llwyd: I stand corrected. I am pleased that the undertake that. Legal advice is essential, in my view, to hon. Gentleman has corrected the record for me. However, the fairness of the appeals process. my point still stands. Stefan Kiszko wrongly served 16 years for rape and 3pm murder after being arrested in 1975. He confessed to the By definition, the people who would be denied help police after three days of questioning without a lawyer. are vulnerable and less able to help themselves. Ill and That and several similar cases gave rise to the Police and disabled people make up 58% of those who will be Criminal Evidence Act, which gave a detained person affected by removing legal aid from welfare advice. the protection of proper legal advice. It also, crucially, Reviews and appeals should be treated separately from gave protection to the police, which is the point made by more routine matters and it should be noted that work the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). on appeals and reviews accounts for only 66% of current Clause 12 will undoubtedly drive a coach and horses welfare benefit casework undertaken under Legal Services through the 1984 Act and I believe that it should be Commission contracts. Consequently, restricting legal resisted at all costs. aid to reviews and appeals would reduce the welfare legal aid bill by 40% from £16.5 million, as my right Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I rise to speak on hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington new clause 17. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for said. That is a significant cut, as I am sure the Minister Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), who was the chair of is aware, and it would help the 100,000 people involved— the all-party parliamentary group on Citizens Advice and they would be the most vulnerable 100,000. before I took over. I endorse what my right hon. Friend I support new clause 17 and unless I hear a clear the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) message from the Minister on the points that we—and said. Originally we wanted to speak to amendment 149 especially my right hon. Friend—have made, I shall under the social welfare grouping on Monday night and support it in the Lobby. it was disappointing that that group was not reached. Consequently, although I do not agree entirely with new Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I declare an interest clause 17, I am minded to support it, particularly given as—or confess that I am—a lawyer. I was a solicitor for how it relates to Citizens Advice. more than 20 years, and I worked for the Treasury Some of my points have been made by my right hon. Solicitor’s Department and the Ministry of Justice, as Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington. I well as in private practice and the public sector, on reiterate that at a time when we are making radical behalf of local authorities. 973 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 974 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill I am concerned by the removal of welfare benefit, I am a member of the Health Committee and we education and debt recovery cases from the scope of investigated clinical negligence, which now costs the legal aid. Those are the kind of bread and butter issues state £800 million, whereas if it had stayed within the that used to be dealt with under the green form scheme. scope of legal aid it would cost only £17 million. That is I wish to reassure hon. Members who are concerned a huge difference, and I wish the Government would that lawyers are in it for the money that we often used to think again. Even the NHS Litigation Authority said: give advice for nothing to people who came through our “The reduction in availability of public funding for clinical doors: we went over the time limit but never claimed for negligence claims and the corresponding rise in Conditional Fee it. So we can knock on the head the idea that lawyers Arrangements, backed by After the Event insurance, has also are only in it for the money. contributed very significantly to the cost of litigation”. When I acted for local authorities in possession cases, Who can get legal aid? That is a very important we found that tenants who were going to be evicted question and I have three examples of why that is so. were better informed when they had advice from the The LSC gave legal aid to the Nepalese Gurkhas, and duty solicitor. I sat as a deputy district judge and it was we know how that turned out. It was a very important much better when the people who appeared before me principle concerning people who had fought and died were not litigants in person. If they have a lawyer to for their country. It gave legal aid to Sean Hodgson, give them proper advice, less court time is taken up. who was wrongly convicted and was freed after 27 years. It also gave legal aid to Colin Ross, a cancer patient who won a battle in the High Court for life-saving drug Keith Vaz: One of the problems with the reduction in treatment that could give him an extra three years of legal aid is that a whole generation of lawyers with life. Mr Ross received legal aid to challenge a decision expertise in welfare, immigration and education law will by West Sussex PCT to refuse funding for the drug he disappear. The only type of lawyers churned out of law wanted. colleges will be those who can do corporate litigation. In the recent case of W v. M, S and an NHS primary care trust, Mr Justice Baker said: Valerie Vaz: I absolutely agree with my right hon. “Given the fundamental issues involved in cases involving the Friend, who has taught me more than he will ever withdrawal of ANH”— realise. He has in common with the Lord Chancellor the artificial nutrition and hydration— fact that they both attended the very eminent lawyers’ “it is alarming to the court that public funding has not been college, Gonville and Caius. available to members of the family to assist them in prosecuting I saw cases from both sides—tenants and local their application. In the event, the applicant’s team has acted pro authorities—and it was very important for people to be bono throughout the hearing and during much of the very able to access legal advice. More and more parents are extensive preparation.” now resorting to the use of lawyers to get their children That goes to the heart of what legal aid is all about. It is into the school of their choice. If they can afford it, that important to test legal principles. That is what judges is fine, but what if they just want basic advice on how to are for, and it forms part of the checks and balances on attend an appeal? That is very important for parents the Executive. The late Lord Bingham called the rule of who cannot afford lawyers. law By happy coincidence, I acted in Hammersmith and “an ideal worth striving for”. Fulham v. Monk, a case that went straight to the House The same sentiment applies to access to justice, so that of Lords—at the time, my hon. Friend the Member for we remain a United Kingdom. I urge the Government Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) was a very good deputy to think again about these divisive proposals. leader of the council—because it involved an important question of principle. Could one of two joint tenants Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): We have heard sever the tenancy by serving a notice to quit on the some naughty stuff from the Opposition. I remember landlord? The result of that case was that we could serving on a Public Bill Committee shortly after I rehouse women who were victims of domestic violence arrived in the House. Now, I am a lad from Bradford, and retain the property involved. Mr Monk was legally and we have this strange practice in Bradford: when we aided, and it was important that that principle was agree with something we vote for it, and when we decided by the House of Lords. disagree with something we vote against it. I went into Another local authority wanted to settle the same Committee, and of course people soon told me, “That’s question, and legal aid was available in that case too, not the way you do it. If something comes from the but I took the decision that it would be sufficient for other side, even if it’s a good amendment, you simply only one case to go forward. So lawyers do put brakes don’t accept it.” [HON.MEMBERS: “Name them!”] I on extensive costs. I have had the privilege of litigating understand that that was common practice in the previous on behalf of the Government and, as the House will Parliament. [HON.MEMBERS: “Name them!”] That is a know, we have one of the finest judiciaries in the world. tad nosey. Judges can keep account of costs and they do not allow I am not a lawyer, but many, many people have come lawyers to go on and on and run up costs, but they also through my constituency door who desperately need, have to take their time when a litigant in person is but cannot afford, a lawyer. I have serious concerns appearing before them. There are also other ways to about these proposals, and I am very much in favour of reduce costs, such as the Littlewoods clause. If someone new clause 17. Another thing that I quickly learnt when has received legal aid and then come into money—by I came here was that there were unintended consequences. winning the pools, for example—the Government can I had never heard of those before, to be honest, but I claw back the money. Judges can also make a wasted soon realised that when something goes wrong a bit costs order against lawyers who waste time in court. later in the day—six months or a year later, perhaps—we 975 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 976 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr David Ward] 3.15 pm say, “Well, it was unintended consequences.” That is Mr Ward: Absolutely. I have come across some pretty basically a euphemism for, “We got it wrong.”In Bradford, scary cases involving several hundred pounds of single-sheet we say, “We made a bad decision.” letters from lawyers, but I have had no joy in trying to bring them to the attention of the Law Society. The Often we make bad decisions—that is the way of hon. Gentleman is right. The present system represents it—but, when we analyse why we are making bad decisions, good value for money to the public purse. often we find that it is because we failed to gather information or consult. Well, we have consulted on this, Lyn Brown: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving and we have a body of evidence. I thank the Liberal way; he is being very generous. Community Links, an Democrat Lawyers Association for the information that amazing voluntary organisation in my constituency, it provided for us—no doubt other groups have provided provides welfare and benefit advice and is funded, in information for other Members—and I am also grateful part, by legal aid. A 10% cut in its fees will jeopardise for the information from Citizens Advice. In particular, any remaining advice that it can provide, because it there are the case studies. Let us consider the consequences already subsidises the legal aid fees coming in. I presume of the proposals. We can all look into the future and that he has had the same experience in Bradford. guess, but there are examples—case studies—of people receiving legal aid who simply will not receive it if these Mr Ward: Absolutely.We have talked about the evidence, proposals go through. I am speaking for five or 10 minutes but it is almost so overwhelming that we must begin to and could give hon. Members a couple of examples, but wonder what is behind this. What on earth is going on if I spoke for 20 minutes I could give three or four more; here? if I spoke for an hour I could give a dozen, and if I stayed here for a week I could give hundreds of case Karl Turner: Come over! studies, one after another, of people who would be badly affected by the proposals. Mr Ward: Hang on. We have received valuable information from the Law An answer that I have been given is that this is all in Society about the fictitious nature of the savings. They the coalition agreement. just will not be generated. In fact the proposals will probably add to costs in many ways. I am seriously Karl Turner: Come over! concerned that, given the body of evidence available, including the huge number of case studies and examples Mr Ward: Hang on. from our constituencies, the consequences will not be unintended. These will be intended consequences; what Occasionally I try to abide by the coalition agreement, will happen will be what the Government intended to but this is not in there. There is in the coalition agreement happen. Various suggestions have been made of alternative something about the deficit reduction, and I am up for measures that people could take—for example, they that—we do desperately need to reduce it—but I am not could represent themselves, or seek support from advice convinced that this will contribute to that. It is a very services—but the overall intention is that people will dangerous thing if we are going to use deficit reduction just go away. They will not be supported—but they will as a justification for almost anything that we might do. not go away, will they? Their problems will remain, and We have to question what we are doing. will probably get more serious, and indeed more costly. Karl Turner rose— Yvonne Fovargue: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is worth reminding the House of the costs of Mr Ward: I need to bring my speech to an end. taking a case under the legal aid scheme? A welfare Others need to speak. benefits case costs £164. That is what the agency gets for One thing that the coalition agreement does say is dealing with it. It is £200 for a debt case and £174 for a that we should have a fundamental review of legal aid. I housing case—and I believe that those costs have been am up for that. Absolutely. Where is it? Why on earth cut by 10% from 1 August. These are not high-cost are we taking these measures? The Business, Innovation cases; this is extremely good value for money. and Skills Committee is due to undertake a debt management review, and there are a series of other Mr Ward: Absolutely. I actually deleted some of my reviews looking at advice centres and the work that they speech because of the figures that the hon. Lady quoted do. We should do that first. earlier, which highlighted my point about the fictitious nature of the cuts, the costs and the value for money to Karl Turner rose— the public purse. Mr Ward: Oh, go on then. Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman is making an important point. Let us consider the parallel of immigration Karl Turner: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for law. If individuals do not have access to a lawyer to deal giving way. He is making a powerful speech on behalf with an immigration case they go to an immigration of his constituents, and he is also speaking for many adviser, who might end up, over a period, getting a great Opposition Members. Has he thought about crossing deal of money out of them, often almost by coercion, in the Floor and joining us? return for very bad advice that often results in disaster. The legal aid process means that people get qualified Mr Ward: I tell you what: I promise to do so once we lawyers giving sensible intelligent advice, which will save have sorted out the mess you left us in. I shall come us all a great deal more money in the future. across then, because it will just be so much easier— 977 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 978 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The me did—I did the homework, I passed the examinations hon. Gentleman is using the word “you”, but as he and I carried on with my CPD, or continuing professional knows, that refers to me. Could he please refrain from development. using that word? I did that because when I am called to a police station as a solicitor, it is important that I know what consent Mr Ward: I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. means in relation to an allegation of rape. It is important Someone once told me that the world is divided into that I can explain what defences might be available. It is two groups of people. There are those who, when they important that I have enough knowledge and experience see somebody walking down the street with a walking to be able to say to a client, “It’s in your best interests to stick, believe in kicking the stick away because it will speak to the police,” or, “In my professional opinion, make that person stronger, and there are those who it’s not in your best interests to speak to the police.” We believe that if they kick away the stick, the person will must not think that everybody who attends at a police just fall over. We are in grave danger of making some of station is guilty of a terrible crime. In my experience the those who are, by definition, the most vulnerable in our contrary is true. The vast majority of detainees in police society fall over, and we will still have to be there to pick stations are either not charged, released on bail pending them up, at even greater cost to the public purse. It does further inquiries, or, if they are charged, acquitted. A not make sense; we should not do it. minority of cases make their way to the courtroom and end in a conviction. Everybody is entitled to access to a solicitor. It is a fundamental right, which, in my opinion, Karl Turner: I of course support new clause 17, this Government are putting at risk. standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member I should mention the situation before the Police and for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue). However, I will Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Hon. Members have touched restrict my remarks to amendment 116, standing in on it, but we had the Birmingham Six and the Guildford the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith Four—great miscarriages of justice—and we learned (Mr Slaughter) and those of many Lib Dem Members, from that. I think I am right in saying that the current for what it is worth. Clause 12 will effectively provide Lord Chancellor was responsible for the 1984 Act, for means-testing in the police station. I have many which was the right thing to introduce. Before PACE concerns about that from my experience as a lawyer. I was introduced, people were making “confessions” that have practised criminal law as a solicitor for many it later transpired were not proper confessions at all. It years—indeed, my wife is a qualified criminal duty is important to remember that time. Miscarriages of solicitor—and shortly before the general election I joined justice cost the country an awful lot of money, but it is my local chambers as a pupil barrister. I therefore come not just about money; it is about the effect on society to this debate with some experience as a criminal lawyer. when people can be convicted for something that they I want briefly to talk about the practical difficulties did not do and when they were nowhere near the scene. of means-testing people in a police station. Let us That seems appalling and very short-sighted. imagine the situation—it happened last weekend, in Another concern for me is adverse inferences from fact. My wife’s pager goes off. It is three o’clock in the silence. I have not looked at case law recently, but morning. She spends the next six hours in Priory Road eminent barristers on both sides of the House will be police station, representing a young man who is suspected familiar with it. The most recent case I am aware of is of very serious criminal offences. She is not in a position Murray v. UK. If my memory serves me correctly—I to go through the paperwork or CDS—criminal defence admit I have read only a summary of the court case—it service—application form to make a claim for legal aid says that a jury could not be invited to hold an inference in that situation. What the client wants to know is: against a person’s silence in the police station if that “How long am I going to be here?”, “What are the person was prevented from seeking legal advice in that consequences if I’m charged?”, “What will happen if I police station. I believe that this is one of the unintended end up appearing before the magistrates court?” and, at consequences that the hon. Member for Bradford East the end of the day, “What will happen if I am convicted?” (Mr Ward) spoke about. The question is not: “How much do you earn?” That is Let us imagine this scenario. A solicitor turns up at a the last thing that the client will want to put their mind police station to see a client and quickly establishes that to. Indeed, the solicitor in attendance would not be the client has enough money to be able to pay for his acting in a proper way if they asked that question. I own legal advice. Acting quite properly in the best firmly believe that everybody should be entitled to free interests of my client, I would say, “Keep your mouth and independent legal advice while in a police station. It shut.” I would tell the client to say absolutely nothing. I is a fundamental right in a democratic society, and to cannot afford to hang around because I am not getting remove it would be a huge mistake. paid and I am not sure that I will be paid even if the I have spoken briefly about the practicalities, but it is client makes an undertaking and assures me that the also important to spend a moment thinking about money will be brought to the firm of solicitors for what used to happen. My hon. Friend the Member for which I work at some point in the future. I would Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) mentioned the green form. probably be thinking, “I’m going. I’m not going to get Yesterday evening I spoke to a solicitor who has been any disclosure from the police, but in the best interests around long enough to remember the days of the of my client I am going to tell him or her to keep their green form. He told me that he used to send his mouth firmly shut.” That provides an opportunity at secretary, or anybody in the office who was available. some point in the future for that suspect effectively to Things have changed for the better. People need to be make up their defence. It removes a valuable tool for the qualified; they have to attend courses. I remember doing judiciary and the jury to decide whether they think an them: I did not like it very much at the time, but I went inference should be made from the client’s silence at the along, I paid the money—or the people who employed police station. This is a massive mistake. 979 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 980 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Karl Turner] sixty quid; it is certainly less than two hundred. If I were still a solicitor and the pager went off, I would have to This Government have not consulted on this proposal go to the police station with no idea of what awaited in clause 12. From a sedentary intervention I told the me. I would hope to be there for five minutes, but I Minister earlier that it was probably written on the back might well be there for six, seven, eight, nine or 10 hours, of a fag packet. With respect, I think it probably was. or even longer. There has been absolutely no consultation. I have spoken It is utterly disgraceful to suggest that publicly funded to many solicitors who have said that this proposal just lawyers are earning vast sums. As of 3 October this came out of the blue. Nobody expected this. The Law year, solicitors are not paid committal fees in a magistrates Society was shocked. I have had meetings with the Bar court. That effectively means that if a case is committed Council and the Law Society, and they have told me to the Crown Court, whether under section 51 of the that they did not expect this. Crime and Disorder Act 1998 or because the defendant elects for it, the solicitor will not be paid for the work. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I am So when will solicitors be paid? They will not be paid in grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who has much experience a police station, and they will not be paid if the case is in this area. I declare an interest as a duty solicitor still committed to the Crown Court. on the books for doing my duty at police stations. I share many of the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about the Is not the Government’s plan simply to squeeze solicitors practical application of a clause that I understand the out of the game? Clause 12 suggests that they expect Government have indicated they have no immediate them to work for free. Make no mistake: that is what it plans to implement. Will he expand on the details about is all about. It is true that big solicitors’ firms with the interests of justice test? Does he agree that there is mixed practices dealing with other areas of law involving specific interest of justice in respect of the advice and private payment may well survive, retain a criminal assistance at the police station given to a detainee who franchise and employ people to do a job, but I can tell has already lost his liberty? The issue of stating his case the House that it is not cheap to employ an accredited is different from what it would be in court, and he might police station representative. I do not know for sure need specific, independent advice. because I have never been one, but I would guess that their salaries are between 25 and 30 grand a year. A Karl Turner: I would need more time to think about newly qualified solicitor in my area, Hull, probably that, but I am tempted to say that I agree with the hon. earns between £22,000 and £26,000. Moreover, the courses Gentleman’s second point. On the first point, however, that solicitors must attend in order to become qualified am I supposed to believe the Minister when he says, to give legal advice in a police station cost many hundreds “Well, we want this on the face of the Bill, but we are of pounds, and it is not a one-off cost. When people never going to use it.”? That is absolute, utter and become qualified to give such advice, that is not the end complete nonsense. I asked my researcher to make of the matter, because they are required to engage in inquiries with the Library and find out on how many CPD as they continue in practice. occasions the previous Government—of whom I am It is unbelievably short-sighted of this disgraceful entirely proud—may have used this provision as a tool. Tory-led coalition Government, disgracefully propped My researcher came back to me to say, “As far as the up by the Liberal Democrats, to suggest that this might Library is concerned, there is no example whatever of a be a good idea. [Interruption.] I am not sure what the Government building provisions into an Act of Parliament Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), that they never have any intention of using.” It is said from a sedentary position, but I am sure it was not complete and utter nonsense to suggest that that is the worth hearing. The reality is—make no mistake about case. it—that this will cost an awful lot more money in the Several hon. Members rose— long run. I am glad I have put that on the record because at some point in the future I will be saying it Karl Turner: I will not give way, because many other again to those on the Treasury Bench. Members are keen to speak in this important debate. It worries me that the Government are ignoring expert Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): It is always a considerable advice on a proposal which, in my view, would remove a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kingston upon fundamental right from citizens, and that there has Hull East (Karl Turner). His speech was passionate, been no consultation whatsoever. The Bar Council and well informed and full of some good sense. I was unable the Law Society have expressed honest concerns about to support a similar amendment of his in Committee, the legislation, but the Government have completely because on one rather important issue I disagree with ignored them, which is outrageous. Many members of him. I do not think it is wrong in principle for a the Bill Committee took that point on board, but in an millionaire who has been convicted of murder to be article one of them, the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben charged for the legal defence they received at the police Gummer), described the Bar Council as bewigged station. However, I do agree with the hon. Gentleman Scargillites. I assure the House that my colleagues at the that what is important is the point at which that charging Bar are far from being bewigged Scargillites. happens.

3.30 pm Karl Turner: I have a great deal of respect for the hon. During my time as a criminal lawyer I defended the Gentleman, too. I mean that sincerely. last Government on many occasions, and it is nonsense I recall attending a police station to represent a to say that that Labour Government were not generous doctor who had an NHS practice as well as a private to publicly funded lawyers. However, I believe that a practice. If he had said to me, “Listen, I’ll pay you,” I fixed fee in a police station is now about a hundred and would not have continued to advise him in what was a 981 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 982 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill very important case. When a solicitor turns up at a Ben Gummer: The motivation of my right hon. and police station in such circumstances, they cannot be hon. Friends on the Front Bench is unimpeachable, as I sure they will be paid. Even if the doctor had given me have found from sitting behind them in the Public Bill an absolute, cast-iron assurance that I would get that Committee. money, the firm of solicitors that employed me would not have allowed me to stay there. That is why I disagreed Mr Llwyd: First, I agree with the hon. Gentleman with the amendment of the right hon. Member for about that form of legislation and he makes a valid Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) in Committee. He point. A couple of minutes ago, he asked why a millionaire suggested that two hours should be free, and then there or multi-millionaire should not pay for legal advice and could be charging. I disagree; I think anybody in a assistance. In my experience, the vast majority of very police-station scenario should be entitled to free and wealthy people have their own lawyers and in many independent legal advice. cases they actually carry their number with them all the time. Ben Gummer: At the risk of this turning into a mutual affection session, let me say that I understand Ben Gummer: The right hon. Gentleman makes a the hon. Gentleman’s point and agree with the foundation reasonable point. However, a point of principle is involved of his argument, which is that the Police and Criminal here. I do not understand why people on low incomes in Evidence Act 1984 was the most significant advance in my constituency or that of the hon. Member for Kingston criminal law in this country since the second world war upon Hull East should be subsidising the legal advice of and we must take into account the abuses that led to its those who can pay for it at a later date should they be introduction. On that basis, it is an important principle convicted of a crime. We can have a debate about this. that there should be free and unmolested legal advice at All I am saying is that we should have the debate now, the point of arrest for all people, no matter how much perhaps with a new clause, or address it in another place they are worth, so that no one need be worried about in a different way. the quality of the advice they are getting. I move on to the new clause tabled by the hon. We could, however, debate whether it is appropriate Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue). Her expertise to have retrospective charging for people of means who on social welfare law is probably unparalleled in this have subsequently been convicted. House and I very much value what she brought to this debate. However, I would remind her—I hope that she Mr Burrowes: All Members want there to be proper will not take this remiss—that at the last election she access to justice for all, and informed legal advice that stood on a manifesto promising cuts in legal aid. can address miscarriages of justice and uphold people’s Although the examples that she gave were pertinent, no basic human rights in police stations. Might those charges recommendation has come from the Opposition Front- be best recovered at the point of conviction? That Bench team as to the alternatives they would introduce, would not create risks in respect of access to justice. either to make cuts elsewhere, which would otherwise Also, in prosecutions by the Department for Work and be seen in her area of advice— Pensions and other agencies, applications are made that cover the costs for the whole of the investigation as well Several hon. Members rose— as the court costs. Ben Gummer: May I just finish my point? At the Ben Gummer: I bow to my hon. Friend’s superior beginning— experience of such matters. There might be a mechanism rose— under which retrospective charging would be possible. Mr Slaughter We could debate that, and Members on both sides of Ben Gummer: I will give way to the shadow Minister. the House would make reasonable arguments. Given the phrasing of the provision currently under discussion Mr Slaughter: I hope that we can make some progress however, such a debate is not possible now. in this debate now. This is not helping—[Interruption.] I hope the Government will be able to provide assurances The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member on another problem. In principle, I am against contingent for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) is laughing. I hope that legislation. I remember sitting up in the Public Gallery he is not going back on his earlier promise that we when I was very small, watching others in this Chamber would make progress today. Had the hon. Member for discuss prevention of terrorism legislation. The then Ipswich (Ben Gummer) been here earlier, he would have Opposition, headed by Neil Kinnock, were arguing heard me deal with that point, in terms and at length, in passionately against that legislation for precisely the response to an intervention from the Chair of the Select reason I am discussing. I do not think that they were Committee. Will he stop wasting time? right in that circumstance, but I find troubling the idea of putting contingent legislation on the statute book Ben Gummer: The hon. Gentleman is a little previous. that could be re-enacted by order later without reference Had he allowed me to continue my point, as I had to Parliament. I hope, therefore, that the Government asked, he would have heard me address exactly what he will either flesh out their proposals for the retrospective said. I did hear what he said, albeit outside the Chamber. charging of defendants should they be convicted or Let me deal with this point about the Opposition. If decide to approach this matter in a different way. they are to be credible, they have to make alternative proposals for cuts to legal aid, which they promised in Lyn Brown: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman their manifesto and have promised since, to this Chamber. could help us on the motivation of his Front-Bench A few months ago, during the Public Bill Committee, team for making this clause contingent. Does the Minister they clung to the proposals made by the Bar Council need people to walk through the Lobby with him and and the Law Society, until those proposals fell apart. they might otherwise not choose to do so? They fell apart to the extent that the Bar Council and 983 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 984 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Ben Gummer] secretary of the Citizens Advice all-party parliamentary group. I shall speak to new clause 43 and amendment 162 the Law Society have had to revise them in a resubmitted in my name. They are probing amendments so I shall be document provided earlier this week. That was the brief, but colleagues in the other place might want to Opposition’s first cost-reduction plan and it was not pursue the matter in greater detail, especially as the one of their own making—it was made by others. amendments carry the support of the official Opposition, Some £245 million-worth of amendments were tabled for which I am extremely grateful. by the Opposition in the Public Bill Committee, along The amendments are supported by advice organisations the lines of those proposed by the hon. Member for concerned that a strict interpretation of legislation may Makerfield, but with no suggestions as to where cuts leave holes in the legal aid safety net. From a pragmatic might be made elsewhere. So we get to a point where and practical perspective, the intention of the amendments there is a complete absence of the other side of policy is to allow funding for the provision of advice from from Her Majesty’s Opposition—it might provide some third-sector independent and impartial advice organisations credibility to what they propose—until perhaps today, to assist with understanding a case, without the requirement when the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) to provide formal and costly legal representation. That appears before the House saying, “We are going to will help the Government achieve some of the savings bring in accelerated competitive tendering in criminal aims in the Bill. In technical terms, the amendment defence work.” would give the Lord Chancellor discretion to permit transfers from the legal aid budget to other funding streams for the provision of advice on issues to which 3.45 pm schedule 1 does not apply. I have to admit something rather embarrassing to the House. I am afraid I am a constituent of the hon. If schedule 1 is to be the future shape of civil legal Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter). At the last aid, the scheme needs to work alongside advice services election I received a great deal of communication from which deal with other legal issues, such as debt problems, him, much of which revolved around the third runway issues of benefit entitlement and appeals under social at Heathrow, which he valiantly opposed. security law, employment rights and immigration decisions. On a practical level, it is a waste of resources if legal aid Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): This is just filibustering. clients cannot receive holistic advice. I know that that is something on which Citizens Advice prides itself. There will also be many cases at the margins of the situations Ben Gummer: This is not filibustering. I will explain covered in schedule 1, and the Legal Services Commission’s why. [Interruption.] I got the impression that a promethean response to the Green Paper highlighted the problem of career had been cut short by the principles of the hon. what it calls boundary issues, warning that Member for Hammersmith, but at no point— “the administration costs of considering such cases could erode revenue Karl Turner: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. savings that the Ministry of Justice has committed itself to.” Can you offer some guidance? When time is short and That addresses some of the points that Opposition we are keen to debate the important issues in the Bill, is Members have raised throughout the debate on the Bill it right for hon. Members to go off the point so widely? and draws attention to the unintended financial consequences of what the Government are trying to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am allowing pursue. I will close as I want to allow colleagues to a little latitude, and I mean a little. I am sure Mr Gummer speak about other parts of the Bill, but it would be will wish to get his remarks straight back on to the helpful if, in response, the Government could explain business before us. how the concerns of civil society bodies about access to advice as a result of the prescriptive nature of schedule Ben Gummer: I was about to say that in none of that 1 will be addressed. communication did I receive any indication that the hon. Member for Hammersmith disapproved of the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) previous Government’s termination of competitive (LD): I am conscious that we have had two hours of tendering for legal services in 2009. On that point he debate already and I am keen, as are other Members, to was silent. There was no outrage that the scheme that he get through all four groups of amendments if humanly is now proposing had been stopped by the previous possible, so I will make only a few comments. It is Government, no sense that he would step down from a appropriate that contributions from both sides of the position on that point, as he would on the issue of the House, including from the hon. Member for Carmarthen third terminal. Thus this modern-day Prometheus has East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), have made the been found wanting. case for the Government to proceed sensitively on this May I ask, therefore, that in their submissions we delicate issue. may have a little more substance from the Opposition My position is very clear: I signed up to the coalition on how they might pay for the many amendments that agreement without reservation because it was the only they have tabled on Report, instead of their jumping on realistic game in town. It was important to accept that every passing bandwagon and every interest group to one of the things that would drive Government policy which they can plead? was the need to reduce the deficit. That is right and necessary, so it is right that every Department should Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) carry its share of that responsibility. As my hon. Friend (PC): I begin by declaring an interest as somebody who the Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) made clear, used to work for Citizens Advice Cymru before being the coalition agreement stated that there would be a elected to this place, and who currently serves as the review of the legal aid system to make it work more 985 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 986 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill efficiently. If the Government are also to achieve their of family reunion, and I take him at his word. I think other objective, which is to ensure that the vulnerable that that is a case where we need change, and I have no are protected in a time of economy austerity and reduced reason to think that, if he is helpful today, we cannot spending, we must ensure that this part of public spending make significant progress. Of course, it would be lovely protects and assists them as much as possible. That is if all the amendments were made today, but we are not where the sensitivity arises. necessarily at that stage. Like other Members who have spoken, I am lawyer, but I am not here to defend the lawyers. We need good Tom Brake: My right hon. Friend has been a Member lawyers, such as the hon. Member for Walsall South for many years. Can he recall on how many occasions (Valerie Vaz) and many others, who come to law not to when the Labour party was in power and we as an be paid six-figure salaries in large commercial firms, but Opposition party put forward amendments in Committee to be paid £25,000 or £35,000 a year, often working 40, that we received its support? 50, 60 or 70 hour a weeks, in citizens advice bureaux. There is a very worthwhile legal advice centre in my Simon Hughes: I cannot, either because there was constituency, the Cambridge House law centre in none or they were very rare. To be serious, however, I Southwark, and many other such places. We are here to have been a Member not quite for ever but for a long ensure that the issues they raise are on the agenda. time under both Labour and Tory Governments, and I We are also here because in constituencies with high do not want to get distracted by that, because in reality levels of unemployment and deprivation, such as mine, we on the Liberal Democrat Benches all seek to work and in every other constituency, there are huge numbers with the Government to get the right outcome, and we of people who from time to time need legal support in will do so constructively.We shall do that not by megaphone the most difficult circumstances. We must ensure that diplomacy but in a way that I hope is persuasive in the welfare net is protected. We have a very generous argument and wins the day. system, which cannot go on in the short term, but we must make the right decisions. All the attempts in the 4pm new clauses that concern me try to persuade the Government of that fact. I have five areas of concern I was as frustrated as everybody else when the final and will flag up one relating specifically to the amendment two groups of amendment were not debated on Monday, that has not been spoken to already, but which I hope so I hope that Ministers will be sensitive to one thing the Government will be able to respond to positively. that we lost out on, which was onward appeals. The Minister has it on his list, as amendment 147, and there Stephen Lloyd: My right hon. Friend mentioned the is an issue when somebody who loses a case wins it on good work that many lawyers do in this area—not the appeal but then the Government appeal on a matter of commercial fat cats—and touched briefly on Citizens law. It seems important to ensure that there is parity Advice. Does he agree that the good work done by between the citizen and the state, and I hope the hundreds, if not thousands, of CAB legal advisers, who Government concede that. are not even lawyers but provide excellent advice, is I absolutely understand the case that the hon. Member absolutely unparalleled and that it would be a tragedy if for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) makes in her new any of the Government’s proposals led to cuts in that clause. I have many constituents—we all do—who present work? with one issue, whereupon we discover that there are four, or their whole life is in a mess, whereupon we have Simon Hughes: None of us can stand up and say that to start trying to put it together again. Their situation there do not have to be reductions, but of course it is will involve finance, relationships and housing, and it not just the lawyers, the citizens advice bureaux or the may involve the custody or care of children, but those other advice bureaux we should be concerned about; it complex cases absolutely need to be looked at and with is advice workers and qualified advice workers too. legal support. That ties in to my point about telephone The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd advice services, because people with such complex needs— (Mr Llwyd), who has just left the Chamber, tried to whether or not they have plastic bags when they come wind us up earlier. I have one objective in these through the door—cannot quickly and efficiently put considerations: if I do not think that a Bill was in the their case on the telephone. Sometimes they cannot do right place when it began, I want to ensure that it ends so face to face, either, but one is much more likely to get up in the right place by the time it becomes law, As we an answer having had face-to-face engagement than if know, the reality is that sometimes we can make and one tries to do so remotely, on the telephone. win an argument in Committee, but it is very rare for a Government to be defeated in Committee. Sometimes Sir Alan Beith: Does my right hon. Friend agree, the argument can be won on Report. Arguments are however, that in just those cases a high proportion of normally won when the Government have been persuaded the advice required is not legal advice, but the advice of not only in the Chamber, but outside it. I have had a sensible person with some experience in the area? meetings with the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, Bodies such as Citizens Advice are very good at providing it. my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) and other colleagues, as have many other Members. The Simon Hughes: For example, there is an organisation press reports that my colleagues on the Liberal Democrat based in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member Benches want to make further progress and changes, for Bradford East called Christians Against Poverty, and we will continue in that. and it has people working in my constituency who are We have heard that the Minister was very good and really good at dealing with debt. They have been tried said in response to my amendment 145 which we debated and tested by me and others, so if one such element is on Monday that he would look specifically at the issue debt I will often refer my constituent to them. They will 987 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 988 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Simon Hughes] and a huge amount of time for the police and other agencies that come to deal with them. Often, it will also unravel those issues and try to get them sorted even save a huge amount of time for the criminal justice when in the county court there might be a legal issue, process afterwards. I am clear that, in time-efficient and such as a possession action by the council or a housing cost-efficient spend, we ought to retain that and not association for the person’s flat, which one might need lose it. to manage as well. Let me make a substantive point about amendment 148, which is in my name, about telephone advice and the Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): In telephone helpline. The Government propose that the our constituencies we all have equivalents of the community legal advice helpline that is currently in use organisation Christians Against Poverty, to which the and does a perfectly good job should, once the changes right hon. Gentleman refers, and there is no question have come into operation, be the sole method of access but that they do marvellous work, but the kind of cuts to the service for certain issues at the beginning. It is that the Government are talking about will impact proposed that there should be a mandatory single telephone either directly or indirectly and, most certainly, on the gateway for four areas at the beginning: debt, inasmuch citizens advice bureaux in my constituency. The real as it is covered by legal aid; community care; discrimination; concern—certainly felt by me and, I think, by every and special educational needs, subject to exceptions. Opposition Member—is that a terrible rock is being The plan is that there should then be a phased expansion thrown into the social system, and the ripples are going of the provision of specialist telephone advice into the to take out more and more people and, therefore, reduce other areas of law for which legal aid is available, except more and more the advice that is out there at the for asylum matters, and that there should be a pilot moment. scheme. Simon Hughes: The hon. Lady and I have inner-city The Justice Committee chaired by my right hon. constituencies, and we have exactly the same—not exactly Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan the same, because Highgate and Hampstead must have Beith) has looked into this matter and said that it was a slightly different profile from Bermondsey and Old not against a telephone advice line in principle, but it Southwark— advised caution and the Government have responded cautiously. May I make two points about why the Glenda Jackson: Hampstead and Kilburn. Government have to be really careful? First, there is real concern out there, as I know from my meetings with Simon Hughes: Hampstead and Kilburn, as it now is, Cambridge House and other organisations that do legal sounds more balanced and mixed, but of course the aid work and advice in my constituency and borough, hon. Lady knows about and has experience of the that if people have to go through a central call centre, issues. which is the only way into the system, they will not get I think that the Government, given the constraints of the same service as with NHS Direct, for example. With the general economic position, are trying as hard as that service, if someone does not like what they get they they can to find the support that the hon. Lady and I can go to their chemist, GP or hospital, but this call wish for. Her party, had there been a Labour Government centre will be the only way in. in this Parliament, would have made cuts in legal aid However good any advice line might be, some people and to public spending across the board, and she would are not going to be very able to deal with that service. I not have liked it, as she did not when they were in know that the Government are not being absolutist power. Indeed, I remember her speaking against her about this issue and that the theory is that the person at Government pretty well every week in the previous the other end will spot the person who might have Parliament, owing to what they were doing, and I was learning difficulties, poor English or whatever and with her and made just those comments. make sure that there is a face-to-face service. However, However, this Government have already put some I am nervous that if someone from Bermondsey, to money into Citizens Advice, for example. Transitional choose a place at random, phones up the national funding is being discussed. My hon. Friends have headquarters, which may be in Bradford, there will not discussed with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, be a full understanding of their circumstances as a who made a very welcome statement earlier today, recently arrived Eritrean with children, for example, putting more money on the table for public servants who is barely able to speak English and is trying to sort and the ways in which that might be extended. I out their housing when there are legal issues. I therefore understand the hon. Lady’s point and we will try, from ask the Government to think again about how we might the Liberal Democrat Benches, to win that argument, make sure that there are ways for people to see someone but we have to win it within the confines of what is a face to face in their community or part of the world that very difficult position for everyone, including the do not require their having that kind of advice only in Government. the first instance. On amendment 116, my right hon. and hon. Friends have made the point about clause 12. May I say to Yvonne Fovargue: The telephone helpline will also Ministers that if clause 12 is not going to be used, it direct people who are not legally aidable towards paid-for ought to go? I understand why the Government might services. Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern want a fall-back or safety-net position, but if it is not to that if helpline staff do not know of any face-to-face be used they should let it go and say so. That is advice agencies or telephone helplines for debt, for important because, as colleagues have identified, providing example, they might direct people to one of the fee-charging someone at a police station with legal advice and assistance debt-management agencies, which would be totally will often save huge grief for them and their families inappropriate? 989 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 990 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Simon Hughes: That would be inappropriate, and I person? The majority of my constituents do not come hope that it would not happen. There should be safeguards. in person, but the 20, 30 or 40 people at every constituency I want to be constructive about how we might deal surgery do not feel able to deal with their problems over with the matter. First, when there is a helpline, as there the telephone. Although I have extremely experienced is already, there should be monitoring not just in theory and competent caseworkers, with the best will in the by the Government. Just as we have lay visitors at police world they often have to say to those who call up, “I’m stations and so on, there should be a facility for Members sorry, but I can’t get to the bottom of your problem of Parliament and others—perhaps a representative unless you bring me the paperwork, and I see you face group, such as the Select Committee that my right hon. to face.” Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed chairs—to be able to take part in seeing how the telephone helpline Simon Hughes: I want to endorse one point, and to works. There will always be a telephone line, and I am amplify it. I gave an example of someone from abroad, not against that as an option, but it should be monitored but in my experience, even people who were born and by Parliament and Members of Parliament, as well as brought up here and have spent all their life here often by the Government. need two, three or four visits before we can sort out what the issues are and get them on their way. It is not Secondly, I would be much more comfortable if one-off bits of advice that they need. somewhere was available in each region, rather than having to go through a national central location. If Joan Ruddock: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely there was someone with the capability of knowing local right. This is key to the service that we provide as circumstances, that would be hugely preferable. I hope Members of Parliament. I know that Government Members that the Minister will be positive in his response to our have argued that we should not provide these services concerns, and I hope that we will be given some for our constituents, but I believe that we should, and I encouragement that they will be not just listened to, but want to continue to do so. responded to at the first opportunity. Sometimes a vulnerable, sick and disabled person who has been wrongly deprived of sickness or disability Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): I apologise, benefits comes to me. I can say, “This should happen,” Mr Deputy Speaker, for the fact that I will have to leave “That should happen,” “Yes, there ought to be a review,” the Chamber soon after I have spoken. I am taking part or, “There ought to be an appeal.” However, I cannot in the Royal Society’s parliamentary pairing scheme. assemble the evidence with that person. I do not have I want to support some of the amendments tabled by people with many hours to spend on each individual Labour Front Benchers, and by the hon. Member for case who can put together the paperwork and the Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and arguments and do the research. At the end of the day, my hon. Friend the. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne that expert job is done by an advice person in an agency, Fovargue). I am here solely because of constituents who who will refer the person to a solicitor, who will provide have written to me, and it is their words and their them with legal aid—or we might refer them directly. concerns that I wish to bring to the Chamber today. My That service is absolutely vital, and if the person does hon. Friend made an important and informative speech, not have it, they are totally denied justice. but I will make a much simpler speech, about my constituents and my relationship with them. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Is the right hon. Lady aware of any incidents of people coming in with I have been contacted not by the 20,000 names on my multiple issues, some of which will qualify for legal aid database of people for whom we have been providing and some of which will not, but they are intertwined help, but by the people who help them—those who look because of the person’s situation? Does she think that to family proceedings and the care of children, and who clarification is needed within the legal aid system in care for those with mental health problems, and the order to have all those issues dealt with rather than whole range of welfare associations and advice centres. excluding some of them? Those workers know from their experience the limits of their own abilities to assist my constituents and, like me, Joan Ruddock: I certainly do, but of course the know the limits of my abilities to assist my constituents. challenge for us now is not to be able to make things It is they who are aware of how much difficulty people better but to try to save things from getting so much will face if the Bill is enacted. worse. That is the difficult situation that we are in. The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old There are tenants who are undoubtedly unfairly deprived Southwark (Simon Hughes) spoke about the telephone of housing benefit, and home owners who are unfairly gateway. Recently I tried to use uSwitch. I rang it deprived of help with mortgage interest payments. They because I accepted the Government’s message to switch can get no assistance in the Government’s new system. my energy company. I had all the papers in line as I sat In cases of housing disrepair I can write to the council at a desk with a landline. I called up and had a discussion, or to the housing association, and very often I can get a but when I was asked for my S number, I asked where I remedy with my own resources and caseworkers. Every was likely to find that in the papers that I had already so often, though, there is a blank refusal by the council described. The person at the other end was unable to to deal with situations involving property that I deem tell me. That should have been a simple process for a unfit for human habitation, and I cannot persuade it middle-class educated person. otherwise because of the vast amounts of money involved We make e-mail addresses and phone numbers available or the difficulties of transferring people when it has tens to constituents, so why, in my constituency and those of of thousands on its waiting list. At that point a legal the right hon. Gentleman and so many other right hon. challenge is necessary—and that is what will be denied and hon. Members, do constituents come to see us in people in future. 991 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 992 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Glenda Jackson: I am sure that in my right hon. take care of him. Lewisham social services want to see Friend’s constituency, as in mine, there is also the increasing that child legally adopted, and the Government are very problem of absentee landlords in the private sector who keen on adoption. However, the child has no legal hand over the management of their properties to a status in this country. Such cases are complicated when managing agent, when often there is no management at it comes to getting all the paperwork together and all. It is virtually impossible for the individual who is arguing the case to the immigration authorities, which suffering to try to pin down those people’s legal have already turned down my constituent’s case once. responsibilities without some kind of knowledge and That is the kind of case that requires legal assistance. support. The second case involves a trafficked woman, and it is one of the worst cases that I have ever had. She was Joan Ruddock: I could not agree more. That is so trafficked here as a teenager, was raped repeatedly and often the case, and often only the threat of legal action gave birth to twins. She has never had her immigration can even get us to the point of knowing who we are status regularised. She cannot conceivably be sent back trying to deal with. That is an essential point. to Africa now, having been here for 12 years. These are Then there are those who are unlawfully evicted, and the kinds of case that will be totally denied justice under also those who may even be lawfully evicted, but could the Government’s proposals. I appeal to the Minister, not or should not be evicted if they had an opportunity on behalf of my constituents and all those who work in to contest the eviction. This morning we had a call from advice services in Lewisham and elsewhere, to think a family of five with the bailiffs at the door. If it had again and not just to sit there laughing, as he is at the been a couple of days earlier, they could have been sent moment. to a solicitor. We know about the case now, and the eviction could have been challenged. The family could Simon Reevell (Dewsbury) (Con): I too should declare have been kept in that home, albeit that they would have an interest, in that I have practised at the criminal Bar had to be put under a stringent regime of dealing with since 1990. their financial difficulties, which came about because I congratulate the Minister on at least having the things had gone wrong with their housing benefit. In decency to bring in clause 12 through primary legislation, future, they would not be able to get the assistance that unlike the previous Government, who sought to bring they so badly needed, and they would therefore, as now, in such a measure through secondary legislation until present themselves and cost the state a lot more money, they were prevented from doing so by the High Court. I if they could get the help they need at all. am afraid, however, that that is the limit of my Then there are the workers who are dismissed and congratulations, because— found possibly to have a case for unfair dismissal. Under the Government’s proposals, they could get assistance Karl Turner: I do not think that what the hon. Gentleman only if they were able to claim discrimination. My has just said is accurate. The Lord Chancellor has constituency is hugely multicultural. Will people have confirmed that the previous Government had no plans to be told, “Can you possibly dress this up as discrimination, to bring in the legislation that the hon. Gentleman has so that you can get the legal assistance that you will just mentioned. otherwise be denied”? We do not want to have to go down that path. Simon Reevell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I will send him a copy of the case. 4.15 pm The clause reveals a lack of understanding of the This will be a terrible disaster for my constituents. criminal justice system, and especially of the importance The constituents of the Under-Secretary of State for of the timing and purpose of police interviews. The Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) may be more privileged than mine are. They may not has spoken—perhaps until just recently—with passion need this kind of assistance, and he may not have about police interviews from a defence perspective, and surgeries bursting with constituents with problems. He what he said was right. Just in case the Minister is not may not receive the same number of e-mails, telephone swayed by the defence, however, I would ask him also to calls and letters—[Interruption.] He smiles. Perhaps he pause and consider this matter from the perspective of would like to say— the prosecution. Police interviews always take place at a time chosen Karl Turner: He thinks it’s funny. It’s disgusting. It’s a by the prosecuting authorities, and the time is chosen disgrace. because it is advantageous to them. In complex cases, perhaps involving drugs or organised violence, the police Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. may arrange for simultaneous arrests, not least so that they can try to put the account of one arrested person Joan Ruddock: There are real differences, I should tell against that of another, and try to break up those whom the Minister. If he does not understand indices of they believe to be part of a complicated conspiracy. The deprivation, or the differences between constituencies timing of the arrest might also be brought forward for in this country, I really do not think that he is fit for the purpose of arranging the interview, in order to ministerial office. prevent a crime, or to protect a witness or a police Let me end by citing two other types of case, to which source. I hope that the Minister will listen carefully. I have a All that will fail if the arrest has taken place and the constituent whose sister died in Africa. Her young child person has been brought to the police station for interview, was brought to Britain with a visitor, and he stayed here yet nothing happens while their means are picked over because his aunt is the only person who is prepared to and the interviewing officer drinks tea. Evidence could 993 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 994 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill be lost, co-accused could flee, and witnesses could be establishment of the Criminal Cases Review Commission, harmed. All that will take place in the period allowed which has hopefully reduced the chances of future for detention, which is slowly being eaten away. The miscarriages of justice. accused will not have details of his means on him. My experience and that of many other hon. Members Surely we are not seriously suggesting that armed police of dealing with immigration cases, miscarriages of justice who are looking for drugs, blood-stained clothing or and many other misfortunes that befall our constituents weapons will be asked to look for three years’ accounts is that problems often come from the initial point of or 12 months’ pay slips. contact with authority, be that a police or immigration There is a serious point to that. The rapist whom I officer, a housing official or someone else. People who prosecuted in the summer, who is now serving a seven-year are not represented at the initial point of contact when prison sentence, was interviewed at a time that the they should be might confess to things that they did not police chose because it was appropriate for the purposes do, suggest they have done things that they could not of their investigation. If they had had to wait while his possibly have done or just become hopelessly confused means were established in order for his legal representation and accept whatever the official says. How many of our to be provided, it would not have been helpful to their constituents have told us that they have said all kinds of inquiry—it would not have been what they wanted to things in good faith to an official, things they clearly did do, and I am sure it would not have been what the not understand because they were intimidated by the victim of that offence would have wanted them to do. experience? It is at that point that our constituents—all of them—deserve the right of independent legal Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): My representation. hon. Friend makes an absolutely proper set of points, The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) but given the realities of life in the police station, from made a good point about the delays that will happen in either a defence or a prosecution point of view, does it a police station if clause 12 is operated as drafted. It will not come down to the fact that that is not the time for be utterly ludicrous if the police arrest somebody and means testing? At a later stage—for example, on want to interview them, but are unable to get the basic conviction—a proper account could be made of a guilty information that they require and so have to keep them person to establish whether they had the means to pay at the police station for a long time. That will take up for their legal representation. police time and space when releasing the person might be the best course of action, all because there is an Simon Reevell: My hon. Friend is aware from his argument about whether a solicitor should be available. practice that at the point of conviction the court will consider applications for prosecution costs, which are On the point about wealthy people getting advice, I effectively the costs of bringing the case before the am quite sure that Roman Abramovich goes around court. There is nothing wrong in principle with somebody with the numbers of half a dozen solicitors in his wallet, who can afford to contribute being invited to do or at least that his security staff do. I am not particularly so—“invited” in the firmest sense of the word. However, worried about the ability of such oligarchs to gain it is entirely appropriate to have a system that delays the access to lawyers should they fall on the wrong side of proper prosecution of criminal justice while people’s the police. I am worried about people who cannot bank accounts are checked to determine whether they afford to get a solicitor, who do not carry a number with qualify for legal aid at the police station. The problem is them and who cannot get a duty solicitor because they not only the injustice that might result for the accused, cannot prove that they are entitled to legal aid. I suggest but the frustration that might be caused to those whom that the Government should simply accept this point we task with investigating crime and prosecuting offenders. and withdraw clause 12 in its entirety. The introduction of such a counter-productive measure I want to make two more quick points about the is in no way excused, in my opinion, by a promise never effect of the trajectory of legal aid. I was concerned to use it. about the trajectory of legal aid under the previous Government, as were many Members. The Liberal Jeremy Corbyn: I am pleased to be able to contribute Democrats used to be concerned, but they have had a briefly to this debate. I am one of a minority of hon. damascene conversion. Something far worse is now Members in the Chamber who is not legally qualified, happening and they support it. When something less but on this occasion I am grateful that so many solicitors bad was happening, they opposed it. I do not know and barristers are Members of the House. They have what has happened. Perhaps somebody can explain it made this a much better debate and brought experience to me at another time. I am too simple a soul to to it. I hope the Minister has listened carefully to what understand it. has been said, particularly in relation to the removal of The changes in legal aid have been devastating for clause 12. many good solicitors’ practices in inner-urban areas. When the House learns from its mistakes, it can Many have closed in my area because they cannot introduce much better legislation. I have been here long survive any longer. There is not enough other work so enough to have gone through the experience of the that they can cross-subsidise within the company. I am Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, Stefan Kiszko not sure that that would be a good principle even if they and many other appalling miscarriages of justice. It is could do it. The shortage of funding for legal advice has true that the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 hit law centres badly and they are trying hard to survive. made a big difference and brought about a much fairer As a result, many people who should be legally represented system of investigation. However, unfortunately it did go unrepresented. not lead to the release of people who were wrongly I have the utmost time, respect and admiration for convicted in Birmingham, which came much later as a Islington law centre, but it is creaking at the seams with result of a huge campaign, which in turn led to the pressure of the work that has fallen to it because of 995 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 996 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Jeremy Corbyn] stressed by being divided from a family in a refugee camp in Kenya, Sudan or the horn of Africa, as is often the number of solicitors’ practices that have closed and the case in my constituency. Those children deserve to the number of people who are in desperate situations be represented so that they can have a family around and want its help. It is doing its best. It relies heavily on them to give them support. pro bono work and trainee solicitors who work at the The second point was about housing. Like every law centre as part of their training. That is not a bad other constituency in London, mine is increasingly thing—in fact, it is a good thing—but the whole system dominated by the private rented sector, which is now should not rely on pro bono solicitors and on the good bigger than the owner-occupier sector and is increasing will of trainees. I am very grateful to those people, but fast. Tenants face short-term tenure, difficulties with the system should not rely on them. landlords, absentees and problems with repairs, and all Likewise, Islington council, despite the huge problems the other insecurities involved in such situations, and and pressures it is facing, like every inner-urban area, they need, deserve and should have access to appropriate has to its credit found the time, political determination legal advice to ensure that the law is carried out and and resources to open a citizens advice bureau on they receive the protection that is due to them. Upper street, opposite the town hall. It is absolutely Yes, legal aid is expensive. When it was introduced in packed out, largely dealing with debt advice. A lot of the 1940s by the very progressive Labour Government, the advice that is given does not require legally qualified it was seen as part of the welfare state. The welfare state people, but can be given by good advisers. However, the included social security, housing, health, unemployment resources have to be there to ensure that it happens. benefits and a right to access to justice. I honestly believe that the trend of cuts in legal aid means that Stephen Lloyd: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that universal access to justice is slowly disappearing before what is proposed by those of us in Parliament who work our very eyes, and that is wrong. closely with Citizens Advice would still lead to a reduction in cost from the current £25.5 million to £16.5 million, which as I said earlier is a 40% reduction? Citizens Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I support advice bureaux are trying to be productive to ensure everything that my hon. Friend the Member for that they can retain their funding. Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) said from the Front Bench about the cuts in welfare rights, and I also agree with Jeremy Corbyn: Citizens advice bureaux do a fantastic the comments by my right hon. Friend the Member for job and they do their best to be as productive as Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) and my hon. Friend possible. It is hard to measure productivity when one is the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). I dealing with advice. It is hard to measure how long it shall not reiterate everything that they said as time is takes to explain to people the seriousness of their short, but I want to address clause 12 and ask the situation. As we all know from our advice surgeries, Minister to remove it from the Bill. some people get it quickly and others take a long time Before I go into the reasoning behind that request, I to understand the reality of their situation. As my right have a general caveat. What I am about to say is not a hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan criticism of police officers. In all professions and walks Ruddock) said, it sometimes takes several visits. A of life there are people who do not do their jobs solicitor or advice bureau cannot do that; only MPs can properly and have mala fide motives. Section 52 of do that. That is why we are vulnerable to such visitations PACE, which was introduced in 1984 by a Conservative every Friday evening, or whenever we hold our advice Government, gave people arrested at a police station surgeries. the right to see a solicitor of their choosing. As hon. Members may remember, that particular piece of legislation 4.30 pm came about because of several riots over the sus laws, The other point I wanted to make is about the effect and Lord Scarman was asked by the then Government of these provisions on the legal profession. Like other to investigate the cause of those riots. hon. Members, I visit universities and colleges on occasion, In those days, under the old sus laws, the police could and I meet and talk to students. I meet many enthusiastic stop anyone walking on the street without any justification young law students who are working hard and doing and without having to show reasonable cause. Inevitably, well. They want to work in criminal law and advice, but a lot of the people stopped were young men of Afro- they cannot get work in those areas. We are turning out Caribbean origin in London and young men from working- a generation of lawyers who pursue property and class backgrounds in the rest of the country. As a result commercial cases because that is where the money is, of Lord Scarman’s inquiry and investigation, the then and the criminal law will suffer, along with the rights of Conservative Government passed that piece of legislation, the individual. The poorest people in the poorest which, generally, was a good one that brought us up to communities in this country will suffer as a result. date with many other countries with similar economies The legal aid changes will lead to an inequality of to ours and with what we could call western democratic justice. My right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, institutions. We would be hard-pressed to find, in any of Deptford made two very important points. The first those countries, a defendant at a police station being was about family reunion cases in immigration law. denied the right to free legal advice. Taking away that Notwithstanding the problems with the Border and right will almost put us back three centuries. It is not Immigration Agency, there is a cost implication of compatible with modern, 21st-century Britain and its removing legal aid for family reunion, because it will place in the world. lead to children being taken into care, more misery for We talk about saving money, but more money is families—sometimes with accompanying abuse—and saved when people are advised properly at a police children under-achieving in school because they are so station. I agree with the hon. Member for Dewsbury 997 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 998 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill (Simon Reevell) and my hon. Friend the Member for today to explain why we are wrong about clause 12 or Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner). From the new clause 17, which stands in the name of the hon. prosecution and defence perspective, they talked about Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue)? how such advice should be allowed. As someone who has both prosecuted and defended for the past 20-odd Yasmin Qureshi: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that years, I think that access to legal representation at a observation, and I agree with him. police station is not only the fair, right and proper thing I shall conclude my remarks, because I know that we for a civilised society, such as ours, to do, but in the long want to get on to the next piece of business. My term it saves money. It avoids unnecessary not-guilty fundamental plea is this: please do not take away the pleas and saves unnecessary time going to court and right to legal advice at a police station. prosecuting people. If people are spoken to by a solicitor, often—in most cases, I would say—solicitors advise Kate Green: I want to ask the Minister two questions their clients correctly. In my experience, if there is about social welfare law. I also feel obliged, even at this evidence against clients, the solicitors and lawyers tend late stage in the debate, to speak briefly to the three to advise people to plead guilty. This proposal, therefore, amendments standing in my name—amendments 69, will not save money, but waste more money. If the 70 and 71—which have not yet been debated. argument is about economy, I would have to point out My first question for the Minister follows the sensible that it is a false economy. remarks of the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen I shall give an example involving the Crown Prosecution Lloyd) earlier about how the Government are making Service. Following the Narey review, which looked into significant legislative changes to a number of areas in why so many cases going to court were leading to social welfare law. They include some that he mentioned, acquittals, Crown prosecutors started going into police such as the introduction of the universal credit and the stations, looking at cases and working with the police in changes to disability living allowance. I would add to order to speed up the criminal process. As a result of that the substantial changes to housing, child maintenance that direct input by lawyers at the beginning of the and the immigration system, where I can already report criminal prosecution system, the number of cases going a shortage of supply in my constituency when it comes for not-guilty pleas has been reduced and many more to accessing good advice. If legal aid is not to be people now plead guilty. available to take people through what will be a period of incredible complexity and confusion, what discussions I also want to mention the disclosure system, which has the Minister had with ministerial colleagues in was introduced under a fantastic piece of legislation other Departments to ensure adequate provision and brought in, again, by a Conservative Government—the funding for people to receive advice, at least in this Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996. transitional period? Failing to put that funding in place Prior to that, we had a system under which some will cost the Government more rather than less. police officers and police forces withheld material evidence in criminal cases, leading to many miscarriages My second question for the Minister relates to the of justice. The new disclosure regime came into being to additional £20 million of funding that has been made deal with that and, as a result, everything now has to be available to support advice agencies—or really, to cope disclosed. with the loss of legal aid coverage in certain categories of law. That is particularly important in my constituency, Those were Conservative Government policies, which because Trafford law centre stands to lose almost all its is why I am so surprised that the Government have funding, given that it is currently funded by an immigration proposed clause 12. It will not save any money, but contract and an employment contract, both of which there is a more fundamental point. The worst thing that will go. It also receives Equality and Human Rights a person can face is being arrested, detained, taken to a Commission funding, which is due to end, with a small police station—often a very hostile environment—and and diminishing proportion of its funding coming from having no one to speak to who understands the procedures. the local authority. Can the Minister tell us a bit more This proposal will remove a fundamental right. about the £20 million fund, which my law centre is Despite our financial difficulties, we are still a rich understandably interested in, but which it rather suspects nation in comparison with the rest of the world. When I has already been earmarked to support agencies elsewhere? worked for the United Nations Mission in Kosovo, I Is it a one-off fund or will it be available in future years? helped to deal with criminal justice issues, and one of What is the process for deciding how the money will be the first things we did when we got the system up and disbursed? running was to draft—I was involved in it—the regulation Finally, my amendments 69, 70 and 71 deal with the of access to a lawyer for a person arrested by the police. transfer of Legal Services Commission staff to the civil That was 11 years ago in a country that had suffered 10 service, which the Minister spoke about in his opening or 12 years of civil unrest. Its institutions were not remarks this afternoon. My understanding is that the working properly and it was financially not very solvent, Bill is proceeding on the assumption that TUPE will but even there, 11 years ago, this particular provision not apply to the transfer. Of course, only the courts can was brought in because it was recognised that a person finally determine whether that is the case, but in any who is arrested and taken to a police station must have event, the Bill should proceed on the basis that transferring independent legal advice. employees will have at least the same protection that would apply if TUPE applied. In any event, what Mr Ward: Does the hon. Lady not think it quite should apply is the Cabinet Office statement of practice telling that although we had intervention after intervention on staff transfers in the public sector, paragraph 19 of from those on the Government Benches last night when which says that it was argued that existing legislation allowed action to “transfers at the instigation and under the control of Central be taken against squatters, we have had no interventions Government will usually be effected through legislation,”— 999 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1000 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Kate Green] Dewsbury (Simon Reevell), for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart), and the right hon. Members for Carshalton as is true in this case— and Wallington (Tom Brake) and for Bermondsey and “in particular those involving Officeholders. Provision can then Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). Some Tory Back Benchers be made for staff to transfer on TUPE terms irrespective of have told us that they, too, oppose it. The Liberal whether the transfer is excluded from the scope of the Directive Democrats have signed the amendment, for which we implemented by TUPE. Departments must therefore ensure that are grateful. legislation effecting transfers of functions between public sector bodies makes provision for staff to transfer and on a basis that On this issue, however, the Minister appears to be follows the principles of TUPE along with appropriate arrangements against the clause. He said to the legal action group to protect occupational pension, redundancy and severance terms.” conference: I was grateful for the assurances that the Minister “I am pleased to say we have no intention to take legal help offered this afternoon on some of those points, and I away from the police station.” understand that transferring employees will be offered It appears, however, that the Secretary of State for membership of the premium section of the principal Justice is embarrassed by that. He tried to blame it on civil service pension scheme. I accept that that is at least Labour, saying that it was one of our proposals. A few as favourable as the Legal Services Commission’s own weeks later, after the bemused Labour Front-Bench pension arrangements. The terms on which members of team checked with the House of Commons Library, the the LSC scheme can transfer their accrued rights to the Secretary of State’s spokesman issued the following civil service pension scheme will no doubt be set out in statement: the transfer scheme contemplated in schedule 4. Will the Minister confirm that my understanding of the “The remark was made in error by the Justice Secretary during the Second Reading debate. The provisions in clause 12(3)(a) and position is correct? (b) are new and, so far as I know, there have not been similar provisions in any previous Bills that did not pass into legislation.” 4.45 pm What a shambles—but there is more! If the TUPE regulations and the acquired rights directive that lies behind them apply, the current early In the Public Bill Committee, the Under-Secretary of retirement and severance arrangements that apply to State for Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon LSC employees would continue to apply to them post- (Mr Djanogly) subsequently said: transfer. That is what the TUPE regulations and the “My opinion is that as things stand, the practicalities are the directive require, and those arrangements provide for greatest stumbling block, and costs could be significant.”––[Official the early payment of enhanced pensions if an employee Report, Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Public Bill Committee, 8 September 2011; c. 437.] over the age of 50 is made redundant. If the Cabinet Office statement of practice to which I alluded earlier is This might well be the first time a Minister has argued to be honoured, those rights will continue to apply against his own legislation while seeking to enact it. post-transfer. I would be grateful if the Minister confirmed There was a time when people did not have access to whether they will. If he cannot do so this afternoon, I a lawyer on arrest. Injustice after injustice propelled would be most grateful if he would write to me on that Parliament into action. It was, in fact, the previous point. Conservative Government—one who included the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke)—who Several hon. Members rose— enacted the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Exceptionally, which for the first time provided a suspect in police to deal with new clauses and amendments not dealt custody with a statutory right to legal advice. A textbook with by Mr Slaughter earlier, I call Jenny Chapman. on police law explains: “By section 58 of PACE, a person arrested and held in police Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I speak in custody is entitled, if he so requests, to consult a solicitor privately support of amendment 116, which would delete clause 12 at any time.” from the Bill. It is with regret that I will keep my I am deeply concerned. In Committee, the Minister— comments extremely brief. Some of the matters discussed whose conflicts of opinion match his alleged conflicts today should really have been discussed on Monday. of interest—changed his mind again. Having said earlier This regret is most keenly felt because the parents of “I am pleased to say we have no intention to take away legal Jane Clough are in the Gallery and had hoped to see us help from the police station”, debate changes to bail. he said in Committee: Clause 12, which would allow the Government, based on either a means test or a an interest of justice test, to “I am not asking the Committee’s permission to implement choose not to provide an arrested person with an means-testing. I am asking for permission to introduce flexibility independent legal adviser. The powers that the Government into the Bill, so that at a later stage it could be considered, subject to full consultation.”––[Official Report, Legal Aid, Sentencing seek to gain were not subject to consultation and have and Punishment of Offenders Public Bill Committee, 8 September generated significant controversy. It is not just Labour 2011; c. 436.] that opposes this clause. Members of all parties oppose it. The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd We know what the Government’s consultations are like. (Mr Llwyd) spoke eloquently against it in Committee There were 5,000 responses to their consultation on and again today. Others who have spoken against it legal aid, and they ignored them all. include my hon. Friends the Members for Bolton South At present, police station advice is provided free to East (Yasmin Qureshi), for Islington North (Jeremy anyone who is arrested. What takes place in the police Corbyn) and for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner), station often determines how the case will proceed, and and the hon. Members for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), for whether or not the police decide to lay charges. 1001 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1002 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I congratulate my about it again, I still fail to understand the rationale hon. Friend on her speech so far. Does she agree that behind the amendment, and, as I will explain, I consider the Government are being penny wise and pound foolish? it unnecessary. Let me briefly explain the role and key Their proposals present the prospect of many miscarriages functions of the director, and also explain why I believe of justice, which could ultimately prove very costly for that independence is important and why it is already them to sort out. enshrined in the Bill. Under the provisions, the Lord Chancellor is obliged Mrs Chapman: I could not have put it better myself. to appoint a civil servant as a statutory office holder It is essential for people who are detained in police who will be responsible for making funding decisions in custody to have access to free, independent legal advice, individual cases, as well as funding decisions in relation not only because they are at their most vulnerable and to exceptional case applications under the Bill. The because evidence obtained from people in custody may statutory office holder is to be known as the director of be inadmissible if they have not had access to independent legal aid casework. The Lord Chancellor is also obliged legal advice, but because the presence of a solicitor makes to provide civil servants to assist the director in carrying a significant difference to the fairness of the investigation out their functions. and the subsequent smooth progress of the case. It Under the new structural arrangements, clause 4 is would therefore be utterly inappropriate to introduce a potentially the most important provision. It ensures merit test that goes beyond the fact of arrest. that the director has independence in making funding As for a means test, it would in practice deprive many decisions, and is free from any political interference in people who failed it of their right to a lawyer, as they making those decisions. That independence is enshrined would not feel able to afford to pay privately. However, specifically by subsection (4), which the hon. Member that is not the only reason for not introducing such a for Hammersmith wishes to delete, and which prohibits test. Applying it would inevitably introduce delay in the the Lord Chancellor from giving guidance or directions process and prevent the police from proceeding as quickly in individual cases. There are provisions in the clause as they would wish. Clients who are in police custody that oblige the director to comply with directions given will not have access to documents with which to verify by the Lord Chancellor and to have regard to guidance their entitlements, and clients who do not pass the issued by the Lord Chancellor, but crucially they cannot means test are in no position to instruct the solicitor of relate to individual cases. their choice on a private basis, because they cannot pick The protection of the director against interference in and choose and cannot argue about terms and conditions. individual cases is an important safeguard. The Bill In short, they will be completely disfranchised, and in already establishes the director in a way that maintains the most terrifying position in which the average citizen and protects the director’s independence of decision can find himself. making. The director is a separate office from the Lord It should be clear by now that we oppose the new Chancellor created by statute. I therefore believe that clause. It is no good hoping and praying, as the Liberal the Bill already establishes a proper role for the director, Democrats keep doing, that it will be repealed in another free from any political interference in individual cases. I place. I urge all Members to join us in the Lobby when therefore urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the we press it to a vote—unless, of course, the Minister has amendment. the sense to withdraw it. Mr Llwyd: Will the Minister give way? Mr Djanogly: I welcome the hon. Member for Darlington Mr Djanogly: I am sorry, but I do not have time to (Mrs Chapman) on the occasion of her first outing at take interventions. the Dispatch Box. Mr Llwyd rose— Most of what was said by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) concerned the scope of Mr Djanogly: No, I will not give way. civil legal aid, and was therefore not directly covered by the new clauses and amendments. It would have been Mr Llwyd: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. good if he had discussed all the amendments that he I want to ask the Minister whether progress has been had tabled, but he could not even do that. However, he made on introducing a clause that would allow an certainly showed us once again that he knows how to appeal against the granting of bail. A concession was spend taxpayers’ money, but not how to save it. He given in Committee, and several Members have tabled mentioned only one saving, when he said that he would amendments, but we will not reach them today. Will the have proceeded with criminal contract competition to Minister update us? save money rather than cutting social welfare law. Criminal competition in line with Labour’s model would have Mr Djanogly: I would dearly have loved to have secured a very small reduction in the £180 million spent reached the provisions relating to bail, and I think the on police station advice—a reduction of only about right hon. Gentleman should ask the official Opposition 10%—which is not really enough. The hon. Gentleman why we have not done so. will have to say where else he would make cuts. When Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Clearly, Labour tried to address contracting, it failed, and it had that was not a point of order, and the Minister has now to pull its contracting proposals in 2009. dealt with the point raised. Amendment 123, to which the hon. Member for Hammersmith spoke, is intended to alter the provisions Mr Djanogly: I shall now turn to amendments 69, 70 in relation to the independence of the director of legal and 71, tabled by the hon. Member for Stretford and aid casework. That subject was debated substantially in Urmston (Kate Green), which address pensions and Committee, but having heard the hon. Gentleman speak compensation. 1003 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1004 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Djanogly] on the scope of social welfare law and legal aid. As anyone who attended the Committee will know, that Amendment 69 looks to ensure that Legal Services area was of significant concern to all hon. Members, Commission employees transferring to the civil service not only as a stand-alone issue, but in its interaction are treated fairly. As drafted, the Bill and commitment with the not-for-profit provision. The Government have between the Ministry of Justice and the LSC will achieve already made a number of changes to our proposals in that. The Ministry is committed to ensuring that transferring the area of social welfare law following consultation, staff are not put in a less favourable position than that which shows that we are aware of concerns and have of existing civil servants. The Bill protects LSC employees’ been listening. Those changes include: retaining special terms and conditions at the point of transfer, with the educational needs cases; expanding the range of debt exception of those for pensions and compensation. The matters; and retaining unlawful eviction cases in scope. Bill also protects employees’ length of service. We will also still be spending £50 million on social When LSC employees transfer to the civil service, welfare law post-reforms. I shall address the not-for-profit they will be enrolled as members of the premium section sector, but I take this opportunity to assure hon. Members of the principal civil service pension scheme. The that, as this Bill heads to the other place, we will Government Actuary’s Department has determined that continue to listen and engage on this important issue. that scheme is “broadly comparable” to the existing For the reasons I have given, therefore, I urge the hon. LSC pension offer. Broad comparability is the standard Lady not to press her new clause to a Division. defined by the Cabinet Office for the pension offer for On not-for-profit organisations, I wish to address staff transferred to organisations within the public sector. points made by the hon. Member for Makerfield, my LSC staff will be able to choose whether to move any right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and entitlement built up in the LSC scheme to the civil Wallington, the hon. Members for Bradford East and service pension scheme, or whether to leave it within the for Walsall South, and the right hon. Member for LSC scheme. Those arrangements have been communicated Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). In to LSC employees and their representatives. I will write order to do so, I shall speak to the new clause tabled by to the hon. Lady on the TUPE point. the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr New clause 17 was moved by the hon. Member for (Jonathan Edwards), although it should be noted that it Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue). Her significant experience was debated in Committee and his amendment 162 also in the field became clear, as it also did in Committee. covers ground debated then. Many Members spoke to the new clause, including the The primary purpose of new clause 43, as in hon. Members for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), subsection (1), is to enable funding to be made available for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and for Walsall for advice on areas of law that would otherwise have South (Valerie Vaz), the right hon. Member for Lewisham, been taken out of scope. However, the important Deptford (Joan Ruddock), my hon. Friends the Members qualification to that is in the definitional provision in for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) and for Bradford East subsection (5), which specifies that “civil legal advice” (Mr Ward) and my right hon. Friend the Member for does not include representation for the purposes of Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). proceedings. As such, the provision is limited to the The new clause is very broad and would widen the “legal help” level of service, which encompasses the scope of legal aid and increase its cost at a time when we range of early advice offered, in particular, by the are seeking to focus funding on the highest priority not-for-profit sector. Amendment 162 is very similar in cases. It would have the effect of bringing into scope nature and seeks to provide funding for out of scope areas which are not covered in schedule 1—and which we areas under schedule 1 at the “legal help” level. intend no longer to fund—by virtue of their interconnected New clause 43 and amendment 162 are unnecessary. and complex nature. We have undertaken a comprehensive Let me start by reiterating my statements from Committee, consultation of legal aid with published impact and where I said clearly that I greatly admire the work of the equality assessments, and we have received almost 5,000 UK’s not-for-profit advice centres and recognise that responses. As my right hon. Friend the Member for they are an important national asset. I can tell the right Carshalton and Wallington pointed out, cases will arise hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford that I very much where it will be difficult to separate two or more legal value the advice they provide to my constituents, and I issues in terms of funding. Under the current legal aid am sure that all hon. Members feel similarly. Throughout scheme, there are provisions in the funding code to all the parliamentary debates thus far on changes to cover mixed cases, where the case is partly in and partly legal aid, the value and esteem that MPs and local out of scope. Those provisions allow funding of the communities place on their local advice centres has whole case in certain circumstances, and in others they been made very clear. allow funding for aspects of the case. I am pleased to confirm to my right hon. Friend that paragraph 39 of In that context, I would like to deal head-on with the schedule 1 ensures similar appropriate provision in the issue that hon. Members have raised about the provision new scheme. We consider that that approach provides a of early advice. Let me make it clear that, as I said in more proportionate means of dealing with interconnected Committee, I strongly agree with the argument that matters than the new clause proposed by the hon. many people with disputes or grievances need early, Member for Makerfield. good-quality general advice, and not necessarily the expertise of specialist lawyers. I acknowledge hon. Members’ points and intuitively I agree with the hon. Member for 5pm Makerfield that some early advice may well have a Leaving aside the technicalities, I appreciate that preventive benefit in avoiding downstream costs. However, various right hon. and hon. Members have used the new changes to legal aid should not of themselves undermine clause as a hook to debate admittedly important issues the provision of general advice. As a matter of principle, 1005 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1006 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill legal aid is money that has been intended for specialist The hon. Member for Walsall South said that she was advice, not for cross-subsidising other activities, as the concerned about the removal of education. I can confirm amendments appear to provide for. I say to the hon. that we will now retain legal aid for special educational Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) needs and discrimination matters relating to the that, as a matter of practice, legal aid represents only contravention of the Equality Act 2010. one of several income streams for many organisations. For example, 85% of citizens advice bureaux funding The hon. Members for Hammersmith and for Makerfield comes from other sources, with half of all bureaux spoke about welfare benefits law being complex and getting no legal aid funding whatsoever. asked how claimants could prepare their own tribunal applications. In most cases individuals will be able to The Government share the views raised by hon. appeal to the first tier social security and child support Members and want to see a robust and sustainable tribunal without formal legal assistance. The appellant not-for-profit advice sector. We have heard and considered is required only to provide reasons for disagreeing with carefully the concerns about the risks that a combination the decision in plain language. According to the 2007-08 of funding changes presents, and we intend to keep the report by the president of the tribunal, it is a regular conversation with the advice sector going. The hon. theme at the tribunal that DWP decisions are most Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) asked commonly overturned because the tribunal elicits additional about this area, and I can tell her that the £107 million information from the appellant, rather than through transition fund made available last December is testament legal arguments. So success is clearly not generally to a pan-government commitment to general, practical dependent on the appellant receiving legal advice. advice that empowers individuals in resolving their issues. Finally, on clause 12, many points were made by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West (Mike In addition, the Lord Chancellor announced £20 million Crockart), my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton for this financial year to support not-for-profit agencies and Wallington, the right hon. Member for Dwyfor delivering front-line services. Both citizens advice bureaux Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), the hon. Member for Kingston and advice centres more widely will be able to bid for upon Hull East (Karl Turner), my hon. Friend the that. Work between Departments on the administration Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), my right hon. of the fund is proceeding well. I hope and expect that Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, the Cabinet Office will make an announcement shortly my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon to provide the detailed terms of the fund. A review of Reevell), and the hon. Members for Islington North free advice centres will be launched to ensure that we and for Bolton South East. The final series of are doing all we can to support the sector. The review amendments—90, 104, 116, 125 and 148—seek to amend will start in early November and conclude early in the clause 12, which deals with legal aid determination for new year. It will look at the future funding for these individuals arrested and held in custody in a police services and likely levels of demand, and will focus on station or other premises. what Government can do to help the sector. I should point out to my hon. Friend the Member for My right hon. Friends the Members for Bermondsey Edinburgh West and the hon. Member for Darlington and Old Southwark and for Carshalton and Wallington who spoke to the amendment that amendment 116 and my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne all would remove clause 12 entirely, which would mean spoke about help for complicated benefits advice. They that the Bill would make no provision at all for individuals will appreciate that that is very much to do with identifying held in custody at a police station or other premises to what should be dealt with as legal advice and what be provided with initial advice and initial assistance. should be dealt with as early general advice. It is this Surely that is not the hon. Lady’s or any other hon. type of issue that the review will need to cover, so yes, Member’s intention. She may therefore wish to reconsider we will be looking carefully at these issues not again, whether a Division is appropriate on the amendment. but on an ongoing basis. Many right hon. and hon. Members made serious Subsection (2) of new clause 43 seeks to provide the and appropriate points. Having heard what has been Lord Chancellor with a power to enter into arrangements said and having considered the issue, I appreciate that regarding the funding and delivery of services, and there are many deeply held concerns across the House specifies the nature of the funding arrangements that and more widely on both the principle and the practicality the Lord Chancellor may enter into. This is an unnecessary of means-testing for advice and assistance for those in amendment because the Lord Chancellor enjoys wide police custody and in relation to the concept of contingent powers to enter into any arrangements under clause 2, legislation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich pursuant to his duty to provide legal aid under clause 1. said. I can confirm that we will, therefore, carefully I therefore urge the hon. Member for Carmarthen East review our approach to these clause issues as the Bill and Dinefwr to withdraw his amendments. goes through its stages in another place. Let me agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith)—my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington, Karl Turner: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. and the hon. Members for Hammersmith and for The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) referred Makerfield made the same sort of points—that the in his remarks to claims that the previous Government Departments of State need to make better decisions at planned to legislate for means-testing in police stations. an earlier stage, leading to fewer appeals. I can tell hon. The Lord Chancellor wrote to my right hon. Friend the Members that I have been working closely with Ministers shadow Secretary of State on 2 August. Will the in the relevant Departments to that end and I will Government confirm that he wrote to apologise and continue to do so. that the letter will appear in the Library? 1007 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1008 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is not Corbyn, Jeremy Hughes, rh Simon a point of order, but the hon. Gentleman has certainly Crausby, Mr David Hunt, Tristram got it on the record. Creagh, Mary Irranca-Davies, Huw Creasy, Stella Jackson, Glenda Question put and agreed to. Crockart, Mike Jamieson, Cathy New clause 4 accordingly read a Second time, and Cruddas, Jon Jarvis, Dan added to the Bill. Cryer, John Johnson, rh Alan Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Diana Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Graham New Clause 9 Cunningham, Tony Jones, Helen Curran, Margaret Jones, Mr Kevan NORTHERN IRELAND: INFORMATION ABOUT FINANCIAL Danczuk, Simon Jones, Susan Elan RESOURCES Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jowell, rh Tessa ‘Schedule [Northern Ireland: information about financial resources] David, Mr Wayne Joyce, Eric (Northern Ireland: information about financial resources) has Davies, Geraint Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald effect.’.—(Mr Djanogly.) De Piero, Gloria Keeley, Barbara Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added Dobbin, Jim Kendall, Liz Dobson, rh Frank Khan, rh Sadiq to the Bill. Docherty, Thomas Lammy, rh Mr David Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lavery, Ian New Clause 17 Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lazarowicz, Mark Doran, Mr Frank Leslie, Chris Dowd, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan EXTENSION OF SCOPE OF LEGAL AID IN COMPLEX CASES Doyle, Gemma Lloyd, Stephen ‘(1) Civil legal services other than services described in Part 1 Dugher, Michael Lloyd, Tony of Schedule 1 are to be available to an individual under this Part Eagle, Ms Angela Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn if subsection (2) is satisfied. Eagle, Maria Long, Naomi (2) This subsection is satisfied where the Director— Edwards, Jonathan Love, Mr Andrew (a) has made a complex case determination in relation to Efford, Clive Lucas, Caroline the individual and the services, and Elliott, Julie Lucas, Ian (b) has determined that the individual qualifies for the Ellman, Mrs Louise MacShane, rh Mr Denis services in accordance with this Part, Engel, Natascha Mactaggart, Fiona (and has not withdrawn either determination). Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Mr Khalid Evans, Chris Mahmood, Shabana (3) For the purposes of subsection (2), a complex case Farrelly, Paul Mann, John determination is a determination— Field, rh Mr Frank McCabe, Steve (a) that the individual has complex, interconnected needs Fitzpatrick, Jim McCann, Mr Michael in relation to which the individual requires comprehensive Flint, rh Caroline McCarthy, Kerry civil legal services, and Flynn, Paul McClymont, Gregg (b) not all of those civil legal services would otherwise be Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain available to the individual because they do not all fall Francis, Dr Hywel McDonnell, John within the scope of Schedule 1.’.—(Yvonne Fovargue.) Gardiner, Barry McFadden, rh Mr Pat Brought up, and read the First time. George, Andrew McGovern, Alison Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Gilmore, Sheila McGovern, Jim Glass, Pat McGuire, rh Mrs Anne The House divided: Ayes 238, Noes 301. Glindon, Mrs Mary McKechin, Ann Division No. 387] [5.11 pm Godsiff, Mr Roger McKenzie, Mr Iain Goggins, rh Paul McKinnell, Catherine AYES Goodman, Helen Meacher, rh Mr Michael Greatrex, Tom Mearns, Ian Abbott, Ms Diane Blunkett, rh Mr David Green, Kate Michael, rh Alun Abrahams, Debbie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian Miliband, rh David Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Brake, rh Tom Griffith, Nia Miller, Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Brennan, Kevin Gwynne, Andrew Mitchell, Austin Alexander, Heidi Brown, Lyn Hain, rh Mr Peter Morden, Jessica Ali, Rushanara Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Ashworth, Jonathan Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Fabian Morris, Grahame M. Austin, Ian Bryant, Chris Hancock, Mr Mike (Easington) Bailey, Mr Adrian Buck, Ms Karen Hanson, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Bain, Mr William Burden, Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mulholland, Greg Balls, rh Ed Burnham, rh Andy Havard, Mr Dai Munn, Meg Banks, Gordon Byrne, rh Mr Liam Healey, rh John Murphy, rh Mr Jim Barron, rh Mr Kevin Campbell, Mr Alan Heyes, David Murphy, rh Paul Beckett, rh Margaret Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hillier, Meg Murray, Ian Begg, Dame Anne Caton, Martin Hilling, Julie Nandy, Lisa Benn, rh Hilary Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodge, rh Margaret Nash, Pamela Berger, Luciana Clark, Katy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon O’Donnell, Fiona Betts, Mr Clive Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hoey, Kate Onwurah, Chi Blackman-Woods, Roberta Coffey, Ann Hood, Mr Jim Osborne, Sandra Blears, rh Hazel Connarty, Michael Hopkins, Kelvin Owen, Albert Blenkinsop, Tom Cooper, Rosie Horwood, Martin Pearce, Teresa Blomfield, Paul Cooper, rh Yvette Howarth, rh Mr George Perkins, Toby 1009 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1010 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Pound, Stephen Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Evennett, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Qureshi, Yasmin Swales, Ian Fabricant, Michael Leech, Mr John Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Tami, Mark Fallon, Michael Lefroy, Jeremy Reed, Mr Jamie Thomas, Mr Gareth Farron, Tim Leigh, Mr Edward Reeves, Rachel Thornberry, Emily Featherstone, Lynne Leslie, Charlotte Reynolds, Emma Trickett, Jon Field, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Riordan, Mrs Linda Turner, Karl Foster, rh Mr Don Lewis, Brandon Robertson, John Twigg, Derek Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Twigg, Stephen Freeman, George Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rotheram, Steve Vaz, rh Keith Freer, Mike Lidington, rh Mr David Roy, Lindsay Vaz, Valerie Fullbrook, Lorraine Lilley, rh Mr Peter Ruddock, rh Joan Walley, Joan Gale, Mr Roger Lord, Jonathan Sarwar, Anas Ward, Mr David Garnier, Mr Edward Loughton, Tim Seabeck, Alison Watson, Mr Tom Gauke, Mr David Luff, Peter Shannon, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Gibb, Mr Nick Lumley, Karen Sharma, Mr Virendra Williams, Hywel Gilbert, Stephen Macleod, Mary Sheerman, Mr Barry Williamson, Chris Glen, John Main, Mrs Anne Shuker, Gavin Wilson, Phil Goldsmith, Zac May, rh Mrs Theresa Skinner, Mr Dennis Winnick, Mr David Goodwill, Mr Robert Maynard, Paul Slaughter, Mr Andy Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wood, Mike Gray, Mr James McCartney, Karl Smith, Angela Woodcock, John Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Nick Wright, David Green, Damian McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Owen Wright, Mr Iain Greening, rh Justine McPartland, Stephen Spellar, rh Mr John Tellers for the Ayes: Griffiths, Andrew Mensch, Louise Straw, rh Mr Jack Nic Dakin and Gummer, Ben Menzies, Mark Stringer, Graham Mark Hendrick Gyimah, Mr Sam Mercer, Patrick Halfon, Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Hames, Duncan Miller, Maria NOES Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Adams, Nigel Burrowes, Mr David Hancock, Matthew Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Afriyie, Adam Burstow, Paul Hands, Greg Moore, rh Michael Aldous, Peter Burt, Lorely Harper, Mr Mark Mordaunt, Penny Alexander, rh Danny Byles, Dan Harrington, Richard Morgan, Nicky Andrew, Stuart Cairns, Alun Harris, Rebecca Morris, Anne Marie Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hart, Simon Morris, David Bacon, Mr Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hayes, Mr John Morris, James Baker, Norman Carmichael, Neil Heald, Oliver Mosley, Stephen Baker, Steve Carswell, Mr Douglas Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Baldry, Tony Cash, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris Mundell, rh David Baldwin, Harriett Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Munt, Tessa Barclay, Stephen Chope, Mr Christopher Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Barker, Gregory Clappison, Mr James Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Baron, Mr John Clark, rh Greg Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Barwell, Gavin Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Bebb, Guto Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Beith, rh Sir Alan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Beresford, Sir Paul Collins, Damian Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Berry, Jake Cox, Mr Geoffrey Howarth, Mr Gerald Nuttall, Mr David Bingham, Andrew Crabb, Stephen Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Binley, Mr Brian Crouch, Tracey Huhne, rh Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric Birtwistle, Gordon Davey, Mr Edward Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Blackman, Bob Davies, David T. C. Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Blackwood, Nicola (Monmouth) James, Margot Patel, Priti Blunt, Mr Crispin Davies, Glyn Javid, Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Boles, Nick Davis, rh Mr David Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pawsey, Mark Bone, Mr Peter de Bois, Nick Johnson, Gareth Penning, Mike Bottomley, Sir Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Penrose, John Bradley, Karen Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Andrew Percy, Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Dorries, Nadine Jones, Mr David Perry, Claire Bray, Angie Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr Marcus Phillips, Stephen Brazier, Mr Julian Duddridge, James Kawczynski, Daniel Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bridgen, Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kelly, Chris Pincher, Christopher Brine, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Brokenshire, James Dunne, Mr Philip Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Ellis, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John Bruce, Fiona Ellison, Jane Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Bruce, rh Malcolm Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lamb, Norman Randall, rh Mr John Buckland, Mr Robert Elphicke, Charlie Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark Burley, Mr Aidan Eustice, George Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Burns, Conor Evans, Graham Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Burns, rh Mr Simon Evans, Jonathan Lee, Jessica Reevell, Simon 1011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1012 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Reid, Mr Alan Thurso, John (e) a relevant individual’s benefit status at a time specified Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Timpson, Mr Edward in the request; Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin (f) information of a prescribed description. Rogerson, Dan Tredinnick, David Rudd, Amber Truss, Elizabeth (4) An information request made to the Commissioners under Ruffley, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew this paragraph may request the disclosure of some or all of the following information— Russell, Bob Tyrie, Mr Andrew Rutley, David Uppal, Paul (a) whether or not a relevant individual is employed or Sanders, Mr Adrian Vara, Mr Shailesh was employed at a time specified in the request; Sandys, Laura Vickers, Martin (b) the name and address of the employer; Scott, Mr Lee Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa (c) whether or not a relevant individual is carrying on a Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles business, trade or profession or was doing so at a Shapps, rh Grant Wallace, Mr Ben time specified in the request; Sharma, Alok Walter, Mr Robert Shelbrooke, Alec Watkinson, Angela (d) the name under which it is or was carried on; Shepherd, Mr Richard Weatherley, Mike (e) the address of any premises used for the purposes of Simmonds, Mark Webb, Steve carrying it on; Simpson, Mr Keith Wharton, James (f) a relevant individual’s national insurance number; Skidmore, Chris Wheeler, Heather (g) a relevant individual’s benefit status at a time specified Smith, Miss Chloe White, Chris in the request; Smith, Henry Whittaker, Craig Smith, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John (h) information of a prescribed description. Smith, Sir Robert Wiggin, Bill (5) The information that may be prescribed under sub-paragraphs Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Willetts, rh Mr David (3)(f) and (4)(h) includes, in particular, information relating to— Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Mr Mark (a) prescribed income of a relevant individual for a Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Roger prescribed period, and Stevenson, John Williams, Stephen (b) prescribed capital of a relevant individual. Stewart, Bob Williamson, Gavin Stewart, Iain Willott, Jenny (6) Information may not be prescribed under sub- Stride, Mel Wilson, Mr Rob paragraph (4)(h) without the Commissioners’ consent. Stuart, Mr Graham Wollaston, Dr Sarah (7) The Secretary of State, the relevant Northern Ireland Stunell, Andrew Wright, Simon Departments and the Commissioners may disclose to the relevant Sturdy, Julian Yeo, Mr Tim authority information specified in an information request made Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Young, rh Sir George under this paragraph. Swinson, Jo Zahawi, Nadhim (8) In this paragraph— Swire, rh Mr Hugo Syms, Mr Robert Tellers for the Noes: “benefit status”, in relation to an individual, means Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Mark Hunter and whether or not the individual is in receipt of a Teather, Sarah Jeremy Wright prescribed benefit or benefits and, if so— (a) which benefit or benefits the individual is receiving, Question accordingly negatived. (b) whether the individual is entitled to the benefit or benefits alone or jointly, New Schedule 3 (c) in prescribed cases, the amount the individual is receiving by way of the benefit (or each of the benefits) (“the benefit amount”), and ‘NORTHERN IRELAND: INFORMATION ABOUT FINANCIAL RESOURCES (d) in prescribed cases, where the benefit consists of a number of elements, what those elements are Obtaining information and the amount included in respect of each 1 (1) The relevant authority may make an information request element in calculating the benefit amount; to— “financial resources”, in relation to an individual, (a) the Secretary of State, includes an individual’s means, disposable income (b) a relevant Northern Ireland Department, or and disposable capital; (c) the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and “the relevant authority” means— Customs (“the Commissioners”). (a) a prescribed person, or (2) An information request may be made under this paragraph only for the purposes of facilitating a determination about an (b) in relation to circumstances for which no individual’s financial resources for the purposes of — person is prescribed, the chief executive of the (a) the Legal Aid, Advice and Assistance (Northern Northern Ireland Legal Services Commission; Ireland) Order 1981 (S.I. 1981/228 (N.I. 8)), or “a relevant individual”, in relation to an information (b) the Access to Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2003 request under this paragraph for the purposes of (S.I. 2003/435) (N.I. 10)). a determination about an individual’s financial resources, means— (3) An information request made to the Secretary of State or a relevant Northern Ireland Department under this paragraph may (a) that individual, and request the disclosure of some or all of the following information— (b) any other individual whose financial resources (a) a relevant individual’s full name and any previous are or may be relevant for the purposes of the names; determination; (b) a relevant individual’s address and any previous “relevant Northern Ireland Department” means the addresses; Department for Social Development in Northern (c) a relevant individual’s date of birth; Ireland or the Department of Finance and (d) a relevant individual’s national insurance number; Personnel in Northern Ireland. 1013 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1014 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Restrictions on disclosing information (3) Regulations under this Schedule are subject to negative 2 (1) A person to whom information is disclosed under paragraph resolution within the meaning of section 41(6) of the 1 of this Schedule or this sub-paragraph may disclose the information Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954, subject to sub- to any person to whom its disclosure is necessary or expedient in paragraph (4). connection with facilitating a determination described in paragraph (4) The following regulations may not be made unless a draft of 1(2). the regulations has been laid before, and approved by a resolution (2) A person to whom such information is disclosed must of, the Northern Ireland Assembly— not— (a) the first regulations under paragraph 1, and (a) disclose the information other than in accordance with (b) regulations under paragraph 3 that amend or repeal sub-paragraph (1), or Northern Ireland legislation (whether alone or with (b) use the information other than for the purpose of other provision). facilitating a determination described in paragraph (5) Section 41(3) of the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1(2). 1954 applies for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) in relation to (3) Sub-paragraph (2) does not prevent— the laying of a draft as it applies in relation to the laying of a statutory document under an enactment (as defined in that Act). (a) the disclosure of information in accordance with an enactment or an order of a court, (6) Subsections (1) to (3) of section 38 apply in relation to regulations made under paragraph 1 or 2 of this Schedule as they (b) the disclosure of information for the purposes of the apply in relation to regulations made by the Lord Chancellor investigation or prosecution of an offence (or suspected under this Part.’.—(Mr Djanogly.) offence) under the law of England and Wales or Northern Ireland or any other jurisdiction, except as Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added otherwise prescribed, to the Bill. (c) the disclosure of information for the purposes of instituting, Amendment proposed: 116, page 8, line 29, leave out or otherwise for the purposes of, proceedings before a Clause 12.—(Mr Slaughter.) court, or Question put, That the amendment be made. (d) the disclosure of information which has previously been lawfully disclosed to the public. The House divided: Ayes 233, Noes 298. (4) A person who discloses or uses information in contravention Division No. 388] [5.25 pm of this paragraph is guilty of an offence and liable— (a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a AYES term not exceeding 2 years or a fine (or both); Abbott, Ms Diane Cooper, Rosie (b) on summary conviction— Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, rh Yvette (i) in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Corbyn, Jeremy not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Crausby, Mr David the statutory maximum (or both), and Alexander, Heidi Creagh, Mary (ii) in Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term Ali, Rushanara Creasy, Stella not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding Ashworth, Jonathan Cruddas, Jon the statutory maximum (or both). Austin, Ian Cryer, John (5) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Alex this paragraph to prove that the person reasonably believed that Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Mr Jim the disclosure or use was lawful. Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Tony (6) In this paragraph “enactment” includes— Banks, Gordon Curran, Margaret Barron, rh Mr Kevin Danczuk, Simon (a) an enactment contained subordinate legislation (within Beckett, rh Margaret David, Mr Wayne the meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978), and Begg, Dame Anne Davidson, Mr Ian (b) an enactment contained in, or in an instrument made Benn, rh Hilary Davies, Geraint under, an Act or Measure of the National Assembly Berger, Luciana De Piero, Gloria for Wales or Northern Ireland legislation. Betts, Mr Clive Dobbin, Jim (7) In relation to an offence under this paragraph committed Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dobson, rh Frank before the commencement of section 154(1) of the Criminal Blears, rh Hazel Docherty, Thomas Justice Act 2003, the reference in sub-paragraph (4)(b)(i) to Blenkinsop, Tom Dodds, rh Mr Nigel 12 months has effect as if it were a reference to 6 months. Blomfield, Paul Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Power to make consequential and supplementary provision etc Blunkett, rh Mr David Doran, Mr Frank 3 (1) The Department of Justice in Northern Ireland may by Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dowd, Jim regulations make consequential, supplementary, incidental or Brennan, Kevin Doyle, Gemma transitional provision in relation to this Schedule extending to Brown, Lyn Dugher, Michael Northern Ireland. Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Eagle, Ms Angela Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Maria (2) The regulations may, in particular— Bryant, Chris Edwards, Jonathan (a) amend, repeal, revoke or otherwise modify Northern Buck, Ms Karen Efford, Clive Ireland legislation passed before this Schedule comes Burden, Richard Elliott, Julie into force or an instrument made under such legislation, and Burnham, rh Andy Ellman, Mrs Louise Byrne, rh Mr Liam Engel, Natascha (b) include transitory or saving provision. Campbell, Mr Alan Esterson, Bill Regulations Campbell, Mr Ronnie Evans, Chris 4 (1) In this Schedule “prescribed” means prescribed by Caton, Martin Farrelly, Paul regulations made by the Department of Justice in Northern Chapman, Mrs Jenny Field, rh Mr Frank Ireland. Clark, Katy Fitzpatrick, Jim (2) The powers under this Schedule to make regulations are Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flello, Robert exercisable by statutory rule for the purposes of the Statutory Coffey, Ann Flint, rh Caroline Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979 (S.I. 1979/1573 (N.I. 12)). Connarty, Michael Flynn, Paul 1015 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1016 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Alison Williamson, Chris Wright, David Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Wilson, Phil Wright, Mr Iain Gardiner, Barry McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Winnick, Mr David George, Andrew McKechin, Ann Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Tellers for the Ayes: Gilmore, Sheila McKenzie, Mr Iain Wood, Mike Nic Dakin and Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Woodcock, John Mark Hendrick Glindon, Mrs Mary Meacher, rh Mr Michael Godsiff, Mr Roger Mearns, Ian NOES Goggins, rh Paul Michael, rh Alun Goodman, Helen Miliband, rh David Adams, Nigel Davey, Mr Edward Greatrex, Tom Miller, Andrew Afriyie, Adam Davies, David T. C. Green, Kate Mitchell, Austin Aldous, Peter (Monmouth) Greenwood, Lilian Morden, Jessica Alexander, rh Danny Davies, Glyn Griffith, Nia Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Amess, Mr David Davis, rh Mr David Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. Andrew, Stuart de Bois, Nick Hain, rh Mr Peter (Easington) Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hamilton, Mr David Mudie, Mr George Bacon, Mr Richard Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hamilton, Fabian Mulholland, Greg Baker, Norman Dorries, Nadine Hancock, Mr Mike Munn, Meg Baker, Steve Doyle-Price, Jackie Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Baldry, Tony Duddridge, James Havard, Mr Dai Murphy, rh Paul Baldwin, Harriett Duncan, rh Mr Alan Healey, rh John Murray, Ian Barclay, Stephen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Heyes, David Nandy, Lisa Barker, Gregory Dunne, Mr Philip Hillier, Meg Nash, Pamela Baron, Mr John Ellis, Michael Hilling, Julie O’Donnell, Fiona Barwell, Gavin Ellison, Jane Hodge, rh Margaret Onwurah, Chi Bebb, Guto Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Osborne, Sandra Beresford, Sir Paul Elphicke, Charlie Hoey, Kate Owen, Albert Berry, Jake Eustice, George Hood, Mr Jim Pearce, Teresa Bingham, Andrew Evans, Graham Hopkins, Kelvin Perkins, Toby Binley, Mr Brian Evans, Jonathan Howarth, rh Mr George Qureshi, Yasmin Birtwistle, Gordon Evennett, Mr David Hunt, Tristram Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blackman, Bob Fabricant, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Reed, Mr Jamie Blackwood, Nicola Fallon, Michael Jackson, Glenda Reeves, Rachel Blunt, Mr Crispin Farron, Tim Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Emma Boles, Nick Featherstone, Lynne Jarvis, Dan Riordan, Mrs Linda Bone, Mr Peter Field, Mark Johnson, rh Alan Robertson, John Bottomley, Sir Peter Francois, rh Mr Mark Johnson, Diana Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bradley, Karen Freeman, George Jones, Graham Rotheram, Steve Brady, Mr Graham Freer, Mike Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Bray, Angie Fullbrook, Lorraine Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Brazier, Mr Julian Gale, Mr Roger Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Bridgen, Andrew Garnier, Mr Edward Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Brine, Steve Gauke, Mr David Joyce, Eric Shannon, Jim Brokenshire, James Gibb, Mr Nick Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Browne, Mr Jeremy Gilbert, Stephen Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Bruce, Fiona Glen, John Kendall, Liz Shuker, Gavin Bruce, rh Malcolm Goodwill, Mr Robert Khan, rh Sadiq Skinner, Mr Dennis Buckland, Mr Robert Graham, Richard Lammy, rh Mr David Slaughter, Mr Andy Burley, Mr Aidan Gray, Mr James Lavery, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burns, Conor Grayling, rh Chris Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Angela Burns, rh Mr Simon Green, Damian Leech, Mr John Smith, Nick Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Burstow, Paul Griffiths, Andrew Lewis, Mr Ivan Spellar, rh Mr John Burt, Lorely Gummer, Ben Lloyd, Tony Straw, rh Mr Jack Byles, Dan Gyimah, Mr Sam Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Stringer, Graham Cairns, Alun Halfon, Robert Long, Naomi Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hames, Duncan Love, Mr Andrew Swales, Ian Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hammond, Stephen Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Matthew Lucas, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Carswell, Mr Douglas Hancock, Mr Mike MacShane, rh Mr Denis Thornberry, Emily Cash, Mr William Hands, Greg Mactaggart, Fiona Trickett, Jon Chishti, Rehman Harper, Mr Mark Mahmood, Mr Khalid Turner, Karl Chope, Mr Christopher Harrington, Richard Mahmood, Shabana Twigg, Derek Clappison, Mr James Harris, Rebecca Mann, John Twigg, Stephen Clark, rh Greg Hart, Simon McCabe, Steve Vaz, rh Keith Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hayes, Mr John McCann, Mr Michael Vaz, Valerie Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Oliver McCarthy, Kerry Walley, Joan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David McClymont, Gregg Ward, Mr David Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain Watson, Mr Tom Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hemming, John McDonnell, John Whitehead, Dr Alan Crabb, Stephen Hendry, Charles McFadden, rh Mr Pat Williams, Hywel Crouch, Tracey Herbert, rh Nick 1017 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1018 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Truss, Elizabeth Whittingdale, Mr John Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Turner, Mr Andrew Wiggin, Bill Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Tyrie, Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Williams, Roger Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Vickers, Martin Williamson, Gavin Howarth, Mr Gerald Nuttall, Mr David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Willott, Jenny Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Walker, Mr Charles Wilson, Mr Rob Huhne, rh Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric Wallace, Mr Ben Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Walter, Mr Robert Wright, Jeremy Jackson, Mr Stewart Paice, rh Mr James Watkinson, Angela Wright, Simon James, Margot Parish, Neil Weatherley, Mike Yeo, Mr Tim Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti Webb, Steve Young, rh Sir George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wharton, James Zahawi, Nadhim Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Heather Tellers for the Noes: Johnson, Joseph Penning, Mike White, Chris Mark Hunter and Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig Mr Shailesh Vara Jones, Mr David Percy, Andrew Jones, Mr Marcus Perry, Claire Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Question accordingly negatived. Kelly, Chris Pickles, rh Mr Eric Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Clause 32 Knight, rh Mr Greg Prisk, Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Pritchard, Mark RESTRICTION ON DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION ABOUT Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic FINANCIAL RESOURCES Lamb, Norman Randall, rh Mr John Amendments made: 1, page 24, line 26, after ‘conviction’, Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark insert ‘— Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John (i) in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan the statutory maximum (or both), and Lee, Dr Phillip Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm (ii) in Northern Ireland’. Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Amendment 2, page 24, line 35, at end insert— Leigh, Mr Edward Rogerson, Dan Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber ‘( ) In relation to an offence under this section committed Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Ruffley, Mr David before the commencement of section 154(1) of the Criminal Lewis, Brandon Russell, Bob Justice Act 2003, the reference in subsection (4)(b)(i) to 12 months Lewis, Dr Julian Rutley, David has effect as if it were a reference to 6 months.’.—(Mr Djanogly.) Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Clause 38 Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew RDERS REGULATIONS AND DIRECTIONS Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant O , Lord, Jonathan Sharma, Alok Amendment made: 25, page 28, line 18, leave out Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, Alec ‘modify’ and insert ‘amend or repeal a provision of’.— Luff, Peter Shepherd, Mr Richard (Mr Djanogly.) Lumley, Karen Simmonds, Mark Macleod, Mary Simpson, Mr Keith Clause 39 Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Miss Chloe INTERPRETATION Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Amendments made: 26, page 28, line 35, after ‘regulations’ McCartney, Jason Smith, Julian insert ‘(except in Schedule [Northern Ireland: information McCartney, Karl Smith, Sir Robert about financial resources])’. McIntosh, Miss Anne Soames, rh Nicholas McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Amendment 27, page 28, line 37 [Clause 39], at end McPartland, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark insert ‘(except in Schedule [Northern Ireland: information Mensch, Louise Stephenson, Andrew about financial resources])’.—(Mr Djanogly.) Menzies, Mark Stevenson, John Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Bob Schedule 4 Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Miller, Maria Stride, Mel TRANSFER OF EMPLOYEES AND PROPERTY ETC OF Milton, Anne Stuart, Mr Graham LEGAL SERVICES COMMISSION Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stunell, Andrew Amendments made: 64, page 131, line 8, at end insert— Moore, rh Michael Sturdy, Julian ‘(6A) A transfer scheme may, so far as is necessary for giving Mordaunt, Penny Swales, Ian effect to that scheme, provide that an enactment that applies in Morgan, Nicky Swayne, rh Mr Desmond relation to compensation schemes or occupational pension schemes Morris, Anne Marie Swinson, Jo applies to a compensation scheme or occupational pension scheme Morris, David Swire, rh Mr Hugo that is the subject of the transfer scheme, the members of such a Morris, James Syms, Mr Robert scheme or the transferee with modifications specified in the Mosley, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter transfer scheme. Mowat, David Teather, Sarah (6B) A transfer scheme may— Mundell, rh David Thurso, John (a) amend or otherwise modify a compensation scheme Munt, Tessa Timpson, Mr Edward that is the subject of the transfer scheme, and Murray, Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin (b) create, modify or remove rights, powers, duties or Murrison, Dr Andrew Tredinnick, David liabilities under or in connection with such a scheme. 1019 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1020 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill (6C) The power under sub-paragraph (6B) includes power to Schedule 5 amend or otherwise modify any instrument relating to the constitution, management or operation of a compensation scheme. CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS (6D) Transfer schemes amending or otherwise modifying a Amendment made: 19, page 144, line 31, at end insert— compensation scheme have effect in spite of any provision (of any nature) which would otherwise prevent or restrict the amendment or modification. ‘Criminal Justice Act 2003 (c. 44) In Schedule 26, paragraph 51.’. (6E) A transfer scheme may include consequential, incidental, —(Mr Djanogly.) supplementary, transitional, transitory and saving provision.’. Amendment 65, page 131, line 15, at end insert— Clause 41 ‘Power to merge LSC occupational pension schemes 4A (1) The Lord Chancellor may make a scheme providing for CONDITIONAL FEE AGREEMENTS: SUCCESS FEES the merger of LSC occupational pension schemes. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I beg to (2) A scheme under this paragraph may in particular— move amendment 21, page 29, line 6, leave out Clause 41. (a) provide for the assets and liabilities of one LSC occupational pension scheme to become assets and liabilities of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it another, will be convenient to discuss the following: (b) create, modify or remove rights, powers, duties or Amendment 150, in clause 41, page 29, line 36, at end liabilities under or in connection with an LSC occupational pension scheme, insert— (c) provide for the winding up of an LSC occupational ‘(4A) The amendments made by subsections (2) and (4) do not pension scheme, apply in relation to proceedings which include a claim for damages for loss or bodily injury resulting from exposure to a harmful (d) provide for references to one LSC occupational pension substance or process where the claim is made against a person scheme in a document, including an enactment, to who— have effect as references to another, and (e) include consequential, incidental, supplementary, (a) carries on business in more than one country, or transitional, transitory and saving provision. (b) owns (wholly or partly) one or more businesses carried (3) A scheme under this paragraph may in particular amend or on in more than one country or in different countries.’. otherwise modify— Amendment 164, in clause 41, page 29, line 36, at end (a) the trust deed of an LSC occupational pension scheme, insert— (b) rules of an LSC occupational pension scheme, and ‘(4A) The amendments made by subsections (2) and (4) do not (c) any other instrument relating to the constitution, apply in relation to a success fee payable under a conditional fee management or operation of an LSC occupational agreement made in relation to— pension scheme. (a) any proceedings in relation to a claim for— (4) A scheme under this paragraph must ensure that the merger (i) libel, of the LSC occupational pension schemes does not, to any extent, deprive members of the LSC occupational pension schemes, or (ii) slander, other beneficiaries under those schemes, of rights that accrue to (iii) misuse of private information; them under those schemes before the merger takes effect. (b) any proceedings arising out of the same cause of action (5) Subject to sub-paragraph (4), a scheme under this paragraph as any proceedings to which sub-paragraph (a) refers.’. has effect in spite of any provision (of any nature) which would otherwise prevent the merger of the LSC occupational pension Amendment 163, in clause 41, page 29, line 41, at end schemes. insert— (6) In this paragraph— ‘(7) The amendments made by subsections (2) and (4) do not “LSC occupational pension scheme” means an apply in relation to a success fee payable under a conditional fee occupational pension scheme under which— agreement made in relation to— (a) the LSC has rights, powers, duties or liabilities, (a) any proceedings based on a claim of defamation; or or (b) any proceedings based on a claim of privacy under (b) the Lord Chancellor or the Secretary of State Article 8 of the European Convention on Human has rights, powers, duties or liabilities by virtue Rights; or of a scheme under paragraph 4(3); (c) any proceedings arising out of the same cause of action “occupational pension scheme” has the same meaning as any proceedings to which paragraphs (a) or (b) as in the Pension Schemes Act 1993.’. refer.’. Amendment 137, page 133, line 3, leave out ‘or Amendment 22, page 31, line 1, leave out clause 43. transitional’ and insert ‘transitional, transitory or saving’. Amendment 151, in clause 43, page 31, line 45, at end Amendment 66, page 133, line 3, after ‘with’, insert insert— ‘— ‘(6) This section does not apply in relation to a costs order (a) ’. made in favour of a party to proceedings which include a claim Amendment 67, page 133, line 4, after ‘by’, insert for damages for loss or bodily injury resulting from exposure to a harmful substance or process where the claim is made against a ‘this Schedule’. person who— Amendment 68, page 133, line 4, after ‘or’, insert— (a) carries on business in more than one country, or (b) schemes made’. (b) owns (wholly or partly) one or more businesses Amendment 138, page 133, line 7, leave out from carried on in more than one country or in different ‘Schedule’ to end of line 8.—(Mr Djanogly.) countries.’. 1021 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1022 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Amendment 165, in clause 43, page 32, line 4, at end How do the Government’s proposals work? First, insert— winning claimants will lose. Victims will have to pay the ‘(4) The amendments made by this section do not apply in costs of their insurance and their lawyer’s success fees relation to a costs order made in favour of a party to proceedings from their damages—up to 25% of damages, aside from in a cause of action in relation to a claim for— damages for future care, can be taken by the lawyer, and (a) libel, the insurance premium will take up even more of those (b) slander, damages, perhaps wiping them out altogether. To make (c) misuse of private information.’. up for part of those losses, the Government plan a Amendment 72, page 32, line 5, leave out clause 44. 10% increase in damages for pain, suffering and loss of New clause 39—Road traffic accident pre-action amenity. Simple maths should be sufficient to show that protocol— that will not make up for all losses. ‘(1) The Table in Rule 45.29 of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998 Losing claimants, including those bringing speculative (SI 1998/3132) (Amount of fixed costs under the Pre-Action and nuisance claims, will gain. They will benefit because Protocol for Low Value Personal Injury Claims in Road Traffic it is unlikely that they will have to pay the costs of the Accidents) is amended as follows. winning defendant—that is part of the perverse, qualified (2) The figure for Stage 1 shall be £200. one-way cost-shifting scheme that the Government intend (3) The figure for Stage 2 shall be £400. to introduce when the Bill passes. (4) The figure for Stage 3 for Type A fixed costs shall be £125. Losing defendants—wrongdoers, in other words—and (5) The figure for Stage 3 for Type B fixed costs shall be £125. their insurers will gain. Wrongdoers will benefit, because they do not have to pay the cost of after-the-event (6) Any further amendment to the Table shall not be made by the Civil Procedure Rule Committee but may be made by the insurance or the victim’s lawyer’s success fees, thus Lord Chancellor by rules made by statutory instrument and may limiting their liabilities and those of their insurers. not be made until a draft of the rules has been laid before and Winning defendants will lose out. A winning defendant approved by resolution of both Houses of Parliament.’. will no longer be able to reclaim the cost of their defence, thanks to qualified one-way cost shifting. To Mr Slaughter: This is an important group of amendments summarise, winners lose and losers win. That is simply to part 2 of the Bill, which deals with a complex and wrong. vital area of access to justice. Because there are only 20 minutes left to debate this group, and I want to be There was a time when the Conservative party worried fair to the Minister and give him 10 minutes to reply, I about access to justice, but now it appears to be nothing shall speak quickly in the hope of getting through the more than the parliamentary wing of the insurance main part of my argument. I should make it clear at the lobby, which according to an investigation by The Guardian outset that I wish to press to a vote amendment 21, has donated £4.9 million to the Tories since the Prime which would undo the destruction of conditional fee Minister became leader. agreements that the Government are pushing through I have spent the past few months speaking to victims in the Bill. I also ask, with the leave of my hon. Friend who have used contingency fee agreements to get justice. the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), the lead I have heard them tell me how our justice system helped signatory to amendment 163, that we press that amendment them, and their fears that others who suffer in future to a vote. will not get the help they need. A number of areas of Conditional fee agreements, also known as no win, law will be badly— no fee agreements, were brought in by a Conservative Government to preserve access to justice for those on The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice moderate means at a time when vast areas were being (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Will the hon. Gentleman give removed from the scope of legal aid and eligibility way? criteria were being removed. The provisions were amended, with a remarkable lack of contention from the Conservative Mr Slaughter: I would love to give way to the Secretary Opposition, in the Access to Justice Act 1999, to create of State, but I have very little time—[Interruption.] If I their modern form. have time at the end I will do so. The idea of contingency fee agreements was to create A number of areas of law will be badly affected by a viable market in legal services by introducing success this legislation, and I should like briefly to touch on a fees paid by losing defendants—wrongdoers, in other few of them—[HON.MEMBERS: “Give way!”] words—to compensate lawyers for the cases that they lost, for which, of course, they received no fees. For Mr Clarke: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman had lawyers, that form of payment by results meant not that to be bullied to give way to me, but there we are. I do not they would take on spurious cases, but that they were want him to exaggerate his case. No win, no fee was allowed to take on cases that might be 75:25 or 50:50. introduced by the Major Government and worked perfectly That has created a system that works, for the main part, satisfactorily until the previous Government amended very well. It has created a viable market in legal services it. We are talking about how much winning lawyers are and permitted access to justice for millions since it was paid. The principles of access to justice and of no win, introduced. no fee are agreed on a bipartisan basis. They are not What sort of people have availed themselves of threatened at all by the Bill. contingency fee agreements? More than half of those who have used them have had an income below £25,000 Mr Slaughter: I began my speech by informing the a year and only 18% have had an income of more than house how contingency fee agreements came about. £40,000 a year. Government Members carp on about Because the Secretary of State has merely repeated that, footballers and models using them, but the average I will penalise the Minister by taking a minute off his claimant is the average constituent. time. 1023 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1024 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Slaughter] I move on to employers’ liability and breach of duty by an employer. We have created some of the safest The Secretary of State believes that there are faults in workplaces in the world in Britain, and our incidence of the current system whereby lawyers are unjustly accidents at work is among the lowest in the world. enriched—he may be right, and my right hon. Friend That is thanks in large part to the labour and trade the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and I, and many union movement, which has made it a priority over the other hon. Members, would probably agree with him—but past 100 years. In one fell swoop, victims will have their let us cure those faults. Let us not throw the baby out rights taken away and employers will be incentivised to with the bathwater. act negligently and capriciously. Insolvency practitioners—for whom even Her Majesty’s Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Some categories of Revenue and Customs and the Insolvency Service are proceedings are particularly expensive to advance, yet lobbying for an exemption—have told us that they will lead to relatively minor awards. For instance, the largest not be able to bring cases. Given that HMRC is the award in a privacy case is £60,000, and below that, largest creditor, with 25% of all unsecured credit, the £13,000. The vast majority of libel cases end up with public purse will lose out by up to £200 million a year. It awards of less than £100,000. The problem is that in will actually cost us money to enact the Bill. those cases, families such as the Dowlers, and people such as Christopher Jefferies, who was on the radio this I will move on to industrial diseases. The Association morning, would have no chance of access to justice. of British Insurers, an organisation that the Minister knows well and has met many times, is still obstructing victims of pleural plaques to try to avoid paying out. In Mr Slaughter: That is why I will be very pleased to the Insurance Times, it described a recent ruling in support amendment 163, which is in my hon. Friend’s favour of victims of pleural plaques as a “disappointment”. name. As I have indicated, there are some cases—libel is a good example—when damages are small, but the Finally, in the minute or two I have left, I turn to defamation is important. Under the Secretary of State’s privacy cases and the amendment in the name of my scheme, more than the sum of the damages could hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda. No one can therefore be taken in fees. forget the case of Milly Dowler. It remains a great Let me go through other areas of law, and I will come source of anger throughout the country. When we to privacy at the end if I have time. On clinical negligence, heard that the phones of Milly’s parents, Bob and Sally, it is unavoidable that there will be good and bad doctors, had been hacked by News International, we were all just as there are good and bad in any profession. It is rightly outraged. We often hear about rich and powerful just and proper that compensation is paid to anyone people having their privacy or reputation trashed by the harmed as a result of inaction, negligence or incompetence press. However, there are thousands of cases that happen when a medical professional fails to live up to their quietly to weak, vulnerable people who are exploited for obligations. I say that despite the fact that when the cheap and tawdry scandal. Their only recourse is through Secretary of State gave the figures, he conflated the cost the courts, and the only means to achieve justice is no of damages, claimant costs and defendant costs and win, no fee. The Dowlers bravely put their case to the pretended that they were a cost figure in themselves, for Prime Minister. Without no win, no fee, they could which he had to make another apology to my right hon. never have taken on the leviathan of News International. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan). I will quote briefly from the Dowlers’ letter to the On professional negligence, taking on a professional Prime Minister: is always risky. No one knows the system better. People “What helped was the fact that we would be insured if we lost a are never 100% likely to win such cases. Without success case and the premium…would be taken from the other side if we fees to compensate for the risk, many such cases will not won. Without that we would not have been able to start a case or be brought in future. So who will lose out? It will be the even threaten it. first-time home buyer whose surveyor negligently fails We were lucky that we fell under that system. We understand to spot subsidence, the pensioner whose financial adviser that the new law will affect thousands of people who want to sue negligently makes a high-risk investment, the hard-working News International and other newspapers. We had understood that you were on the side of the people not the press. Please do small businessman whose accountant negligently fails not change the law so that the ability to sue the papers is lost.” to prepare accounts and lands him with a huge tax bill that he cannot pay, and the bereaved family whose They end by saying: probate solicitor takes three years to deal with the case “We are sure you do not want to go down in history as the and then charges huge fees. Those are the kinds of case Prime Minister who took rights away from ordinary people”. that our constituents experience. I put those comments to the Minister and the Secretary of State today. That is the question being asked of us. 5.45 pm Do we want to go down as the Parliament that took rights away from ordinary people so that large companies Business and human rights cases perhaps highlight could break the law and behave as they like, without the problems even more starkly. My hon. Friend the people being able to challenge them? Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) has tabled an amendment, which I fear she will not have time to speak to, that Part 2 of the Bill is appalling. Access to justice is addresses precisely this issue. It is backed by Amnesty being destroyed. When the Minister challenged me earlier International, the Catholic Fund for Overseas Development, and said that I was talking about part 2 during our Friends of the Earth and Martyn Day of Leigh Day discussion of part 1, as so often he missed the point. and Co., who brought Trafigura to justice on behalf of 30,000 Côte d’Ivoirians who were poisoned by toxic Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): waste. On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. 1025 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1026 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Chris Bryant: You are the Parliamentary Private Secretary. addressing is the substantial legal costs that go to lawyers under the current no win, no fee regime. Our Mr Wallace: PPSs are allowed to make points of reforms are designed to make these legal costs more order. Throughout the proceedings on the Bill Opposition proportionate, while enabling meritorious claims to be Front Benchers, particularly the hon. Member for brought. This applies equally to defamation and privacy Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), have made points about claims and multinational claims as to other categories the perceived failure of Government Front Benchers to of case, but it is worth reminding ourselves of some of declare their interests. However, the hon. Gentleman the disproportionate costs that have arisen and that has failed to point out that on 119 separate occasions emphasise the need for our reforms across the board. the Labour party has received donations from lawyers who make their money from success fees. Chris Bryant: The Minister referred specifically to defamation and privacy cases. The problem is that in Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. That the vast majority of cases—and in every single instance is not a point of order and the matter was dealt with case in privacy cases—the awards are so small that if earlier in the week. Let us have no more of that. there is no success fee, it will be completely uneconomic for a lawyer to come forward with a CFA. That may not Mr Slaughter: Let me just say that if the Government be the Minister’s intention—I take him at his word—but start talking about conflicts of interest on this Bill, they the effect will be to stop CFAs in libel, defamation and will open a Pandora’s box. privacy cases.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. We are not going to open Mr Djanogly: In some cases, where the balance is Pandora’s box. We are going to deal with the amendments against, that perhaps should be the case. In Naomi before us. Campbell’s defamation case against the Daily Mirror, she received damages of £3,500 but the total costs Mr Slaughter: I was not talking about the Minister; I exceeded £1 million. was talking about the Bill. I am not surprised that the In relation to clinical negligence claims, which can of Minister’s PPS is embarrassed by the Bill, after sitting course include substantial damages in catastrophic injury through our proceedings in Committee. cases, lawyers’ costs are about half of the total damages The common link between parts 1 and 2 of the Bill is that are paid out. In 2009-10, for example, the NHS the destruction of access to justice in a way that we have paid out £297 million in damages and £121 million in not seen since the introduction of legal aid by a Labour legal costs, over half of which were no win, no fee costs. Government after the second world war. The insurance One of the leading no win, no fee cases against a industry is being given one of the biggest pay-offs in multinational company is that against Trafigura. In that history which, as we know from experience, will go into case, the claimants’ legal costs were more than £100 million, the pockets of their directors and shareholders. While but the damages recovered were only £30 million. As a other aspects of this Bill display the startling incompetence result, 30,000 claimants in the Ivory Coast received of this Government, none shows their intent more truly damages of an average of only £1,000. than the provisions in part 2, which would give the whip hand to large public and private corporations, while Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Will the Minister give taking rights away from ordinary people. What is the way? point in having rights if they cannot be enforced? Mr Djanogly: I will not—[HON.MEMBERS: “Go on!”] I ask the Liberal Democrats to look at amendment 21, I am afraid that I do not have time to give way. which would deal with cases such as Trafigura and pleural plaques, and amendment 163, which would deal It is these high legal costs which led to Sir Rupert with cases such as that of Milly Dowler, and join us in Jackson’s review. Specifically in relation to defamation the Lobby tonight. and privacy, it is these high legal costs which led to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), when he was Justice Secretary, seeking to introduce similar changes Mr Djanogly: Amendments 21, 22, 72, 163, 164 and to those we are now proposing to reduce excessive legal 165 all seek to undermine a fundamental element of the costs, but he mistakenly limited them only to defamation package of reform of civil litigation funding and costs and privacy cases. In effect, that is the exact opposite of based on the report prepared on behalf of the judiciary what the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) by Sir Rupert Jackson and now included in this Bill—the proposes in his amendment. The sands seem to have abolition of recoverability of success fees and after-the-event been shifting dramatically in the Labour camp on this insurance premiums. I must say that I am rather perplexed issue. by the amendments as in Committee the hon. Member New clause 39, tabled by the right hon. Member for for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) agreed that the intention Blackburn, would reduce the amount of fixed recoverable of part 2 is fees on the pre-action protocol for low-value road traffic “perfectly sound, and it is one with which we have a great deal of accidents in the light of the impact of the ban on sympathy.”––[Official Report, Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Public Bill Committee, 13 September 2011; c. 501.] referral fees. The Department is now reviewing the situation, but to achieve this outcome does not require I will also deal with new clause 39, which is on the primary legislation. Instead, a reduction can be implemented related but slightly separate matter of recoverable costs through changes to the Civil Procedure Rules. I can give for low-value road traffic accident claims. the commitment that we are looking at this. Indeed, my It is worth emphasising, as the Justice Secretary has officials plan to consult on appropriate changes to the just said, that we are not proposing to end conditional level of recoverable costs, and any changes will be fee agreements or no win, no fee deals. What we are placed before the Committee for approval. I can also 1027 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1028 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Djanogly] We understand that the amendments seek to protect the rights of individuals in developing countries to tell him that I do not intend to go to all the trouble of claim damages against large multinational companies, stopping referral fees being paid to claims management but the amendments go much wider than that, and companies, only to see those same fees staying with the would provide that a losing defendant should pay the lawyers rather than going back to consumers in lower success fee and ATE insurance premium based on whether insurance premiums or prices in the shops. it is a multinational company, regardless of the nature of the claim or status of the claimant. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I am grateful to Given the concerns that I have been raising in relation the Minister for those undertakings. to cases brought by claimants in developing countries, I shall concentrate my response on those cases. The Mr Djanogly: I shall take each amendment in turn. amendments are neither necessary nor appropriate. The Amendment 21 would remove clause 41, the effect of Government believe that it will still be possible to bring which is to amend the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 claims against multinational companies, once our CFA so that success fees under a conditional fee agreement reforms are implemented, but—this is one of the major will no longer be recoverable from a losing party in any reasons for our reforms overall—we believe that the civil proceedings. Amendment 22 would remove clause 43. costs involved will be more proportionate to the sums in I should make it clear that we have listened carefully to issue. What the proposals in the Bill seek to address is specific concerns about the abolition of recoverability not the validity of the claims, but the iniquity of a of after-the-event insurance premiums in clinical negligence system that can allow such disproportionate costs. It is claims and the impact it would have on funding expert worth emphasising that the current system of recoverable reports. Such reports, which can be expensive, are often success fees and recoverable ATE insurance premiums, necessary in establishing whether there is a case for with the consequences for high civil costs, is not seen in commencing proceedings, which raises particular issues any other jurisdiction in the world. CFAs will continue if recoverability of ATE insurance is abolished. In to be available, but the Bill also extends the funding responding to these concerns, clause 43 provides, by options. The Government seek to allow damages-based way of exception, for the recoverability of premiums in agreements to be used for the first time to fund such respect of ATE insurance taken out to cover the cost of claims. Group actions in particular are suited to DBAs, expert reports in clinical negligence cases. as legal representatives may recover their fees as a Amendment 72 would remove clause 44, which abolishes percentage of the damages awarded to each successful the recoverability of the costs incurred by membership claimant. organisations, such as trade unions, of insuring themselves Amendments 163, 164 and 165 seek to ensure that against the risk of paying costs to another party in success fees continue to be recoverable in defamation the event of losing a claim. I strongly believe that the and privacy claims. The Government are aware of abolition of recoverability should apply equally to the concerns about access to justice and the ability of those arrangements for membership organisations in order to with modest means to pursue claims, often against maintain a level playing field. Amendments 150 and powerful organisations. I am aware that there are 151 seek to allow the recoverability of success fees and slight definitional differences, which I will not go into. ATE insurance premiums from a losing party in certain However, all hon. Members will be aware of one of the claims for damages against a person who carries on most high-profile cases, involving the Dowler family, business in more than one country or who owns one or who were successful in their claim against News more businesses carried on in more than one country or International. in different countries. 6pm Lisa Nandy: Will the Minister give way? Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 31 October). Mr Djanogly: We understand that these amendments The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already seek to protect the rights of individuals—[HON.MEMBERS: proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), “Go on. Give way.”] Oh, all right. How can I resist? That the amendment be made. The House divided: Ayes 223, Noes 315. Lisa Nandy: I thank the Minister for finally recognising Division No. 389] [6 pm just how strongly so many of us on both sides of the House feel about this issue and how unfortunate it is AYES that we have not been able to make the case today. Unfortunately, we have not had sufficient answers to Abbott, Ms Diane Benn, rh Hilary make Members on both sides of the House feel that Abrahams, Debbie Berger, Luciana Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Betts, Mr Clive these cases will be able to continue. Will he therefore Alexander, Heidi Blackman-Woods, agree to meet a cross-party group of us before the Bill is Ali, Rushanara Roberta sent to the other place, so that e can make at least make Ashworth, Jonathan Blears, rh Hazel our case before the Bill becomes law? Bailey, Mr Adrian Blomfield, Paul Bain, Mr William Blunkett, rh Mr David Mr Djanogly: The hon. Lady will be pleased to hear Balls, rh Ed Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben that I have met the Corporate Responsibility Coalition— Banks, Gordon Brennan, Kevin CORE—and the solicitors who acted for Trafigura. I Barron, rh Mr Kevin Brown, Lyn have acted for a number of people, and of course I shall Beckett, rh Margaret Brown, rh Mr Nicholas be prepared and happy to receive additional representations Begg, Dame Anne Brown, Mr Russell from her. Bell, Sir Stuart Bryant, Chris 1029 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1030 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Buck, Ms Karen Havard, Mr Dai Murray, Ian Smith, Angela Burden, Richard Healey, rh John Nandy, Lisa Smith, Nick Burnham, rh Andy Hendrick, Mark Nash, Pamela Smith, Owen Byrne, rh Mr Liam Heyes, David O’Donnell, Fiona Spellar, rh Mr John Campbell, Mr Alan Hillier, Meg Onwurah, Chi Straw, rh Mr Jack Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hilling, Julie Osborne, Sandra Stringer, Graham Caton, Martin Hodge, rh Margaret Owen, Albert Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pearce, Teresa Tami, Mark Clark, Katy Hoey, Kate Perkins, Toby Thomas, Mr Gareth Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hood, Mr Jim Pound, Stephen Thornberry, Emily Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Qureshi, Yasmin Trickett, Jon Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Raynsford, rh Mr Turner, Karl Cooper, Rosie Hunt, Tristram Nick Twigg, Derek Cooper, rh Yvette Irranca-Davies, Huw Reed, Mr Jamie Twigg, Stephen Corbyn, Jeremy Jackson, Glenda Reynolds, Emma Vaz, rh Keith Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Riordan, Mrs Linda Vaz, Valerie Creagh, Mary Jarvis, Dan Robertson, John Walley, Joan Creasy, Stella Johnson, rh Alan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Whitehead, Dr Alan Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Diana Rotheram, Steve Williams, Hywel Cryer, John Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Williamson, Chris Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Wilson, Phil Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Winnick, Mr David Cunningham, Tony Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Curran, Margaret Joyce, Eric Shannon, Jim Wood, Mike Dakin, Nic Kaufman, rh Sir Sharma, Mr Virendra Woodcock, John Danczuk, Simon Gerald Sheerman, Mr Barry Wright, David Darling, rh Mr Alistair Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin Wright, Mr Iain David, Mr Wayne Kendall, Liz Skinner, Mr Dennis Tellers for the Ayes: Davidson, Mr Ian Khan, rh Sadiq Slaughter, Mr Andy Graham Jones and Davies, Geraint Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, rh Mr Andrew Tom Blenkinsop De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian Dobbin, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Dobson, rh Frank Leslie, Chris NOES Docherty, Thomas Lewis, Mr Ivan Adams, Nigel Bruce, rh Malcolm Donohoe, Mr Brian Lloyd, Tony Afriyie, Adam Buckland, Mr Robert H. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Aldous, Peter Burley, Mr Aidan Doran, Mr Frank Long, Naomi Alexander, rh Danny Burns, Conor Dowd, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Amess, Mr David Burns, rh Mr Simon Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Caroline Andrew, Stuart Burrowes, Mr David Dugher, Michael Lucas, Ian Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burt, Lorely Eagle, Ms Angela MacShane, rh Mr Bacon, Mr Richard Byles, Dan Eagle, Maria Denis Baker, Norman Cairns, Alun Edwards, Jonathan Mactaggart, Fiona Baker, Steve Campbell, rh Sir Efford, Clive Mahmood, Mr Khalid Baldry, Tony Menzies Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Shabana Baldwin, Harriett Carmichael, rh Mr Ellman, Mrs Louise Mann, John Barclay, Stephen Alistair Engel, Natascha Marsden, Mr Gordon Baron, Mr John Carmichael, Neil Esterson, Bill McCabe, Steve Barwell, Gavin Carswell, Mr Douglas Evans, Chris McCann, Mr Michael Bebb, Guto Cash, Mr William Farrelly, Paul McCarthy, Kerry Beith, rh Sir Alan Chishti, Rehman Field, rh Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg Beresford, Sir Paul Chope, Mr Christopher Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonagh, Siobhain Berry, Jake Clappison, Mr James Flello, Robert McDonnell, John Bingham, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Flint, rh Caroline McFadden, rh Mr Pat Binley, Mr Brian Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Flynn, Paul McGovern, Jim Birtwistle, Gordon Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Fovargue, Yvonne McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Blackman, Bob Coffey, Dr Thérèse Francis, Dr Hywel McKechin, Ann Blackwood, Nicola Collins, Damian Gardiner, Barry McKenzie, Mr Iain Blunt, Mr Crispin Cox, Mr Geoffrey Gilmore, Sheila McKinnell, Catherine Boles, Nick Crabb, Stephen Glass, Pat Meacher, rh Mr Michael Bone, Mr Peter Crockart, Mike Glindon, Mrs Mary Mearns, Ian Bottomley, Sir Peter Crouch, Tracey Godsiff, Mr Roger Michael, rh Alun Bradley, Karen Davey, Mr Edward Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh David Brady, Mr Graham Davies, David T. C. Goodman, Helen Miller, Andrew Brake, rh Tom (Monmouth) Green, Kate Mitchell, Austin Bray, Angie Davies, Glyn Greenwood, Lilian Morden, Jessica Brazier, Mr Julian Davis, rh Mr David Griffith, Nia Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bridgen, Andrew de Bois, Nick Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. Brine, Steve Dinenage, Caroline Hain, rh Mr Peter (Easington) Brokenshire, James Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hamilton, Mr David Mudie, Mr George Brooke, Annette Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hamilton, Fabian Munn, Meg Browne, Mr Jeremy Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Bruce, Fiona Dorries, Nadine 1031 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1032 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Norman, Jesse Stewart, Iain Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Nuttall, Mr David Stride, Mel Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Mr Matthew Stuart, Mr Graham Duncan Smith, rh Mr James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric Sturdy, Julian Iain Javid, Sajid Opperman, Guy Swales, Ian Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paice,rhMr Swayne, rh Mr Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth James Desmond Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Parish, Neil Swinson, Jo Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Patel, Priti Swire, rh Mr Hugo Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David Pawsey, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Penning, Mike Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Teather, Sarah Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Percy, Andrew Thurso, John Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Perry, Claire Timpson, Mr Edward Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Phillips, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Fallon, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tredinnick, David Farron, Tim Lamb, Norman Pincher, Christopher Truss, Elizabeth Featherstone, Lynne Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Field, Mark Latham, Pauline Pritchard, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Foster, rh Mr Don Laws, rh Mr David Pugh, John Uppal, Paul Fox,rhDrLiam Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John Vaizey, Mr Edward Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Vickers, Martin Freeman, George Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Villiers, rh Mrs Freer, Mike Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Theresa Fullbrook, Lorraine Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Walker, Mr Charles Fuller, Richard Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Wallace, Mr Ben Gale, Mr Roger Leslie, Charlotte Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Garnier, Mr Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Ward, Mr David Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Watkinson, Angela George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Ruffley, Mr David Weatherley, Mike Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Russell, Bob Webb, Steve Gilbert, Stephen Ian Rutley, David Wharton, James Glen, John Lidington, rh Mr David Sanders, Mr Adrian Wheeler, Heather Goldsmith, Zac Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura White, Chris Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Whittaker, Craig Gove, rh Michael Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Graham, Richard Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Wiggin, Bill Gray, Mr James Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Willetts, rh Mr David Grayling, rh Chris Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Williams, Mr Mark Green, Damian Main, Mrs Anne Shepherd, Mr Richard Williams, Roger Greening, rh Justine Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Stephen Griffiths, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa Skidmore, Chris Williamson, Gavin Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe Willott, Jenny Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Wilson, Mr Rob Hague, rh Mr William McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian Wollaston, Dr Sarah Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Sir Robert Wright, Jeremy Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soames, rh Nicholas Wright, Simon Hammond, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Young, rh Sir George Hancock, Matthew Mensch, Louise Caroline Zahawi, Nadhim Hancock, Mr Mike Menzies, Mark Spencer, Mr Mark Hands, Greg Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Mark Hunter and Harrington, Richard Miller, Maria Stewart, Bob Mr Shailesh Vara Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Question accordingly negatived. Hayes, Mr John Moore, rh Michael Heald, Oliver Mordaunt, Penny The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions Heath, Mr David Morgan, Nicky necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, Anne Marie that time (Standing Order No. 83E). Hemming, John Morris, David Amendment proposed: 163, page 29, line 41, at end Henderson, Gordon Morris, James insert— Hendry, Charles Mosley, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Mowat, David ‘(7) The amendments made by subsections (2) and (4) do not apply in relation to a success fee payable under a conditional fee Hinds, Damian Mulholland, Greg agreement made in relation to— Hoban, Mr Mark Mundell, rh David Hollingbery, George Munt, Tessa (a) any proceedings based on a claim of defamation; or Holloway, Mr Adam Murray, Sheryll (b) any proceedings based on a claim of privacy under Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Rights; or Howarth, Mr Gerald Newmark, Mr Brooks (c) any proceedings arising out of the same cause of action Howell, John Newton, Sarah as any proceedings to which paragraphs (a) or (b) Hughes, rh Simon Nokes, Caroline refer.’.—(Chris Bryant.) 1033 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1034 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 305. Lazarowicz, Mark Perkins, Toby Division No. 390] [6.13 pm Leslie, Chris Qureshi, Yasmin Lewis, Mr Ivan Raynsford, rh Mr Lloyd, Tony Nick AYES Long, Naomi Reynolds, Emma Abbott, Ms Diane Dowd, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Riordan, Mrs Linda Abrahams, Debbie Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Caroline Robertson, John Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dugher, Michael Lucas, Ian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Alexander, Heidi Eagle, Ms Angela MacShane, rh Mr Rotheram, Steve Ali, Rushanara Eagle, Maria Denis Roy, Lindsay Ashworth, Jonathan Efford, Clive Mactaggart, Fiona Ruddock, rh Joan Austin, Ian Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sarwar, Anas Bailey, Mr Adrian Ellman, Mrs Louise Mahmood, Shabana Seabeck, Alison Bain, Mr William Engel, Natascha Mann, John Shannon, Jim Balls, rh Ed Esterson, Bill Marsden, Mr Gordon Sharma, Mr Virendra Banks, Gordon Evans, Chris McCabe, Steve Sheerman, Mr Barry Barron, rh Mr Kevin Farrelly, Paul McCann, Mr Michael Shuker, Gavin Beckett, rh Margaret Field, rh Mr Frank McCarthy, Kerry Skinner, Mr Dennis Begg, Dame Anne Fitzpatrick, Jim McClymont, Gregg Slaughter, Mr Andy Bell, Sir Stuart Flello, Robert McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Mr Andrew Benn, rh Hilary Flint, rh Caroline McDonnell, John Smith, Angela Berger, Luciana Flynn, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Smith, Nick Betts, Mr Clive Fovargue, Yvonne Pat Smith, Owen Blackman-Woods, Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Spellar, rh Mr John Roberta Gardiner, Barry McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Straw, rh Mr Jack Blears, rh Hazel George, Andrew McKechin, Ann Stringer, Graham Blomfield, Paul Gilmore, Sheila McKenzie, Mr Iain Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blunkett, rh Mr David Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Tami, Mark Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Glindon, Mrs Mary Meacher, rh Mr Michael Thomas, Mr Gareth Brennan, Kevin Godsiff, Mr Roger Mearns, Ian Thornberry, Emily Brown, Lyn Goggins, rh Paul Michael, rh Alun Trickett, Jon Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Goodman, Helen Miliband, rh David Turner, Karl Brown, Mr Russell Greatrex, Tom Miller, Andrew Twigg, Derek Bryant, Chris Green, Kate Mitchell, Austin Twigg, Stephen Buck, Ms Karen Greenwood, Lilian Morden, Jessica Vaz, Valerie Burden, Richard Griffith, Nia Morrice, Graeme Walley, Joan Burnham, rh Andy Gwynne, Andrew (Livingston) Ward, Mr David Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hain, rh Mr Peter Morris, Grahame M. Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Alan Hamilton, Mr David (Easington) Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hamilton, Fabian Mudie, Mr George Wilson, Phil Caton, Martin Hanson, rh Mr David Munn, Meg Winnick, Mr David Chapman, Mrs Jenny Havard, Mr Dai Murphy, rh Mr Jim Winterton, rh Ms Clark, Katy Healey, rh John Murphy, rh Paul Rosie Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hendrick, Mark Murray, Ian Wood, Mike Coffey, Ann Heyes, David Nandy, Lisa Woodcock, John Connarty, Michael Hillier, Meg Nash, Pamela Wright, David Cooper, Rosie Hilling, Julie O’Donnell, Fiona Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, rh Yvette Hodge, rh Margaret Onwurah, Chi Corbyn, Jeremy Hodgson, Mrs Osborne, Sandra Tellers for the Ayes: Crausby, Mr David Sharon Owen, Albert Graham Jones and Creagh, Mary Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Tom Blenkinsop Creasy, Stella Hood, Mr Jim Cruddas, Jon Hopkins, Kelvin NOES Cryer, John Howarth, rh Mr George Cunningham, Alex Hunt, Tristram Adams, Nigel Berry, Jake Cunningham, Mr Jim Irranca-Davies, Huw Afriyie, Adam Bingham, Andrew Cunningham, Tony Jackson, Glenda Aldous, Peter Binley, Mr Brian Curran, Margaret Jamieson, Cathy Amess, Mr David Birtwistle, Gordon Dakin, Nic Johnson, rh Alan Andrew, Stuart Blackman, Bob Danczuk, Simon Johnson, Diana Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blackwood, Nicola Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Helen Bacon, Mr Richard Blunt, Mr Crispin David, Mr Wayne Jones, Mr Kevan Baker, Norman Boles, Nick Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Susan Elan Baker, Steve Bone, Mr Peter Davies, Geraint Jowell, rh Tessa Baldry, Tony Bottomley, Sir Peter De Piero, Gloria Joyce, Eric Baldwin, Harriett Bradley, Karen Dobbin, Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Barclay, Stephen Brady, Mr Graham Dobson, rh Frank Gerald Barker, Gregory Bray, Angie Docherty, Thomas Keeley, Barbara Baron, Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Kendall, Liz Barwell, Gavin Bridgen, Andrew Donohoe, Mr Brian Khan, rh Sadiq Bebb, Guto Brine, Steve H. Lammy, rh Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan Brokenshire, James Doran, Mr Frank Lavery, Ian Beresford, Sir Paul Brooke, Annette 1035 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1036 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Browne, Mr Jeremy Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Bruce, Fiona Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Bruce, rh Malcolm Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Shapps, rh Grant Buckland, Mr Robert Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Sharma, Alok Burley, Mr Aidan Green, Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Shelbrooke, Alec Burns, Conor Greening, rh Justine May, rh Mrs Theresa Shepherd, Mr Richard Burns, rh Mr Simon Griffiths, Andrew Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Burrowes, Mr David Gummer, Ben McCartney, Jason Skidmore, Chris Burstow, Paul Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe Burt, Lorely Hague, rh Mr McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Byles, Dan William McLoughlin, rh Mr Smith, Julian Cairns, Alun Halfon, Robert Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Campbell, rh Sir Hames, Duncan McPartland, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Menzies Hammond, Stephen Mensch, Louise Spelman, rh Mrs Carmichael, rh Mr Hancock, Matthew Menzies, Mark Caroline Alistair Hancock, Mr Mike Mercer, Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark Carmichael, Neil Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria Stevenson, John Cash, Mr William Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain Chope, Mr Christopher Hart, Simon Moore, rh Michael Stride, Mel Clappison, Mr James Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Stuart, Mr Graham Clark, rh Greg Heald, Oliver Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Morris, James Swinson, Jo Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Teather, Sarah Davey, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Thurso, John Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward (Monmouth) Holloway, Mr Adam Neill, Robert Tomlinson, Justin Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Tredinnick, David Davis, rh Mr David Howarth, Mr Gerald Newton, Sarah Truss, Elizabeth de Bois, Nick Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Turner, Mr Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Norman, Jesse Tyrie, Mr Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunter, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Uppal, Paul Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Offord, Mr Matthew Vaizey, Mr Edward Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Ollerenshaw, Eric Vickers, Martin Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Opperman, Guy Villiers, rh Mrs Duddridge, James Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Mr James Theresa Duncan Smith, rh Mr Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Charles Iain Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Watkinson, Angela Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Weatherley, Mike Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Webb, Steve Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Wharton, James Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Wheeler, Heather Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Pickles, rh Mr Eric White, Chris Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Whittaker, Craig Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Prisk, Mr Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Fallon, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pritchard, Mark Wiggin, Bill Farron, Tim Lamb, Norman Pugh, John Willetts, rh Mr David Featherstone, Lynne Lancaster, Mark Randall, rh Mr John Williams, Mr Mark Field, Mark Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark Williams, Roger Foster, rh Mr Don Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Williams, Stephen Fox,rhDrLiam Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williamson, Gavin Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Reevell, Simon Willott, Jenny Freeman, George Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Wilson, Mr Rob Freer, Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wollaston, Dr Sarah Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Mr Edward Rogerson, Dan Wright, Simon Rudd, Amber Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Young, rh Sir George Ruffley, Mr David Gale, Mr Roger Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Zahawi, Nadhim Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Brandon Russell, Bob Rutley, David Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Tellers for the Noes: Sanders, Mr Adrian Mr Shailesh Vara and Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Sandys, Laura Jeremy Wright Gilbert, Stephen Ian Glen, John Lidington, rh Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Question accordingly negatived. Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan 1037 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1038 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Clause 65 ( ) In section 256A (further review)— (a) in subsection (4)(a), for “recommending” substitute OVERSEAS COMMUNITY ORDERS AND SERVICE “directing”; COMMUNITY ORDERS (b) in subsection (4)(c), for “recommendation” substitute Amendments made: 75, page 47, line 36, at end insert— “direction”; ‘( ) In section 322 of that Act (financial penalty enforcement (c) in subsection (5), for “recommendation” (in both orders), in the definition of “financial penalty” in subsection (4), places) substitute “direction”.’.—(Mr Blunt.) after “including” insert “a fine imposed by the Court Martial or the Service Civilian Court under paragraph 10(1)(aa) of Schedule 8 to the 2003 Act by virtue of section 184 and Part 2 of Clause 104 Schedule 5 (breach etc of overseas community order) or”.’.

Amendment 76, page 48, line 2, at end insert— TRANSFER OF PRISONERS: PROSECUTION OF OTHER ‘( ) Part 2 of Schedule 5 to that Act (breach, revocation and OFFENCES amendment of overseas community orders) is amended as Amendments made: follows.’. 28, page 86, line 5, leave out ‘the relevant area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. Amendment 77, page 48, line 3, leave out from ‘In’ to ‘paragraph’ in line 4. Amendment 29, page 86, line 25, leave out ‘the relevant area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. Amendment 78, page 48, line 6, at end insert— ‘( ) After paragraph 14 insert— Amendment 30, page 86, line 30, leave out ‘the relevant area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. 14A (1) The following provisions apply where the Court Martial or the Service Civilian Court imposes a fine under paragraph 10(1)(aa) Amendment 31, page 86, leave out lines 41 and 42.— of that Schedule as applied by this Part of this Schedule. (Mr Blunt.) (2) Section 251 of this Act (power to order payment of fine by instalments) applies in relation to the fine as it applies in relation to a fine imposed by a court for a service offence. Clause 105 (3) Where the offender is aged under 18 when the fine is imposed and has a service parent or service guardian (within the TRANSIT OF PRISONERS meaning of section 268 of this Act), subsections (2) to (4) of that Amendments made: 32, page 87, line 12, leave out ‘the section (payment of fine by service parent or service guardian) relevant area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. apply in relation to the fine as they apply in relation to a fine imposed in the circumstances mentioned in subsection (1) of that Amendment 33, page 87, line 27, after ‘6B’ insert ‘, section. 6BA’. (4) In the application of subsection (2) of section 268 by virtue Amendment 34, page 87, line 30, leave out ‘the relevant of sub-paragraph (3) of this paragraph, the reference in that area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. subsection to the time of conviction is to be read as a reference to the time the fine is imposed. Amendment 35, page 87, line 33, leave out ‘transported’ and insert ‘taken’. (5) Section 269(2) of this Act (power of court to make financial statement order before making order under section 268) Amendment 36, page 87, line 33, leave out ‘the relevant does not apply in relation to an order under section 268 which is area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. made by virtue of sub-paragraph (3) of this paragraph.”’.— Amendment 37, page 87, line 37, at end insert— (Mr Blunt.) ‘(a) the Scottish Ministers, in a case where it is proposed Clause 96 that the person who is the subject of a request under subsection (1)(b) will, whilst in transit— FURTHER RELEASE AFTER RECALL (i) be present only in Scotland, or Amendments made: 3, page 75, line 16, leave out (ii) arrive in Scotland before being taken to another ‘Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000’ and part of Great Britain;’. insert ‘Sentencing Act’. Amendment 38, page 87, leave out lines 38 to 41. Amendment 4, page 75, line 19, leave out Amendment 39, page 87, leave out lines 43 and 44. ‘Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000)’ and insert Amendment 40, page 87, line 45, leave out ‘section 6B’ ‘Sentencing Act)’. and insert ‘sections 6B and 6BA’. Amendment 5, page 75, line 37, leave out ‘recommends’ Amendment 41, page 88, line 1, leave out ‘the relevant and insert ‘directs’. area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. Amendment 6, page 75, line 39, leave out ‘recommendation’ and insert ‘direction’. Amendment 42, page 88, line 2, leave out ‘the relevant area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. Amendment 7, page 76, line 32, leave out ‘recommends’ and insert ‘directs’. Amendment 43, page 88, line 13, leave out ‘the relevant area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. Amendment 8, page 76, line 34, leave out ‘recommendation’ and insert ‘direction’.—(Mr Blunt.) Amendment 44, page 88, line 17, at end insert— ‘(5A) A constable may search a person who is the subject of a Clause 98 transit order, and any item in the possession of that person, for any item which that person might use— MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENTS RELATING TO RELEASE (a) to cause physical injury to that person or to any other AND RECALL person; or Amendment made: 9, page 79, line 39at end insert— (b) to assist that person to escape from detention. ‘( ) In section 256(1) (review by the Board)— (5B) The power conferred by subsection (5A) does not (a) for “recommend” substitute “direct”; authorise a constable to require a person to remove any clothing (b) for “recommendation” substitute “direction”. other than an outer coat, jacket, headgear or gloves. 1039 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1040 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill (5C) The power conferred by subsection (5A) includes power Amendment 49, page 88, line 38, at end insert— to use reasonable force where necessary. ‘(3) In this section “constable” means any person who is a (5D) A constable searching a person in the exercise of the constable in any part of Great Britain or who has, under any power conferred by subsection (5A) may seize any item found if enactment (including section 6B(4) above), the powers of a constable the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the in any part of Great Britain. person searched might use the item — (4) A person who is a constable by virtue of subsection (3) has (a) to cause physical injury to that person or to any other for the purposes of this section all the powers, authority, protection person; or and privileges of a constable in the part of Great Britain in which (b) to assist that person to escape from detention. the person mentioned in subsection (2) is for the time being.’. (5E) Any item seized from a person under subsection (5D) Amendment 50, page 88, line 38, at end insert— may be retained while that person is in transit.’. ‘( ) In section 9 of the Repatriation of Prisoners Act 1984 Amendment 45, page 88, leave out lines 18 to 22 (short title, commencement and extent)— insert— (a) at the beginning of subsection (3) insert “Subject to ‘(6) In this section “constable” means— subsection (3A),”, and (a) any person who is a constable in any part of Great (b) after that subsection insert— Britain or who has, under any enactment (including (3A) Sections 3A and 6A to 6C extend to England and Wales subsection (4) above), the powers of a constable in and Scotland only.”’.—(Mr Blunt.) any part of Great Britain, or (b) any person who is a prison officer within the meaning Clause 113 of section 117(1) of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. OFFENCES OF THREATENING WITH ARTICLE WITH BLADE (7) A person who is a constable by virtue of subsection (6)(a) OR POINT has, for the purposes of section 6A, this section and section 6BA, all the powers, authority, protection and privileges of a constable OR OFFENSIVE WEAPON IN PUBLIC OR ON SCHOOL in any part of Great Britain in which a person who is the subject PREMISES of a transit order is for the time being.’. Amendments made: 154, page 93, line 41, leave out Amendment 46, page 88, line 22, at end insert— from beginning to end of line 4 on page 94 and insert— 6BA Transit through different parts of Great Britain ‘(5) Where a person aged 16 or over is convicted of an offence (1) Where the Scottish Ministers issue a transit order and it is under this section, the court must impose an appropriate custodial proposed that the person who is the subject of the order will be sentence (with or without a fine) unless the court is of the opinion taken to a part of Great Britain other than Scotland whilst in that there are particular circumstances which— transit, they must notify the Secretary of State. (a) relate to the offence or to the offender, and (2) The Scottish Ministers need not notify the Secretary of (b) would make it unjust to do so in all the circumstances. State where the Secretary of State has agreed in writing to the (5A) In this section “appropriate custodial sentence” means— transit order. (a) in the case of a person who is aged 18 or over when (3) Unless the Secretary of State agrees in writing to the transit convicted, a sentence of imprisonment for a term of order, that order authorises the detention of the person subject at least 6 months; to it in Scotland only. (b) in the case of a person who is aged at least 16 but under (4) But where the person escapes or is unlawfully at large, the 18 when convicted, a detention and training order of order also authorises— at least 4 months. (a) the arrest of the person under section 6B(5) in a part of (5B) In considering whether it is of the opinion mentioned in Great Britain other than Scotland, and subsection (5) in the case of a person aged under 18, the court must have regard to its duty under section 44 of the Children and (b) the detention of the person in that part by a constable Young Persons Act 1933.”’. (within the meaning of that section) for the purpose of taking the person to Scotland. Amendment 155, page 94, line 10, leave out ‘(5)’ and insert ‘(5A)(a)’. (5) Where the Secretary of State issues a transit order and it is proposed that the person who is the subject of the order will be Amendment 156, page 95, line 1, leave out from taken to Scotland whilst in transit, the Secretary of State must beginning to end of line 6 and insert— notify the Scottish Ministers. ‘(7) Where a person aged 16 or over is convicted of an offence (6) The Secretary of State need not notify the Scottish under this section, the court must impose an appropriate custodial Ministers where the Scottish Ministers have agreed in writing to sentence (with or without a fine) unless the court is of the opinion the transit order. that there are particular circumstances which— (7) Unless the Scottish Ministers agree in writing to the transit (a) relate to the offence or to the offender, and order, that order authorises the detention of the person subject (b) would make it unjust to do so in all the circumstances. to it only in a part of Great Britain other than Scotland. (7A) In this section “appropriate custodial sentence” means— (8) But where the person escapes or is unlawfully at large, the (a) in the case of a person who is aged 18 or over when order also authorises— convicted, a sentence of imprisonment for a term of (a) the arrest of the person under section 6B(5) in at least 6 months; Scotland, and (b) in the case of a person who is aged at least 16 but (b) the detention of the person in Scotland by a constable under 18 when convicted, a detention and training (within the meaning of that section) for the purpose order of at least 4 months. of taking the person to a part of Great Britain other (7B) In considering whether it is of the opinion mentioned in than Scotland.’. subsection (7) in the case of a person aged under 18, the court Amendment 47, page 88, line 34, leave out ‘the relevant must have regard to its duty under section 44 of the Children and area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. Young Persons Act 1933.”’. Amendment 48, page 88, line 37, leave out ‘the relevant Amendment 157, page 95, line 12, leave out ‘(7)’ and area’ and insert ‘Great Britain’. insert ‘(7A)(a)’.—(Mr Blunt.) 1041 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1042 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Clause 115 (5) The provisions referred to in subsection (4) are— section 1A(5A)(b) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953; POWER TO MAKE CONSEQUENTIAL AND SUPPLEMENTARY section 139AA(7A)(b) of the Criminal Justice PROVISION ETC. Act 1988.”’.—(Mr Blunt.) Amendments made: 133, page 96, line 13, leave out ‘or transitional’ and insert ‘transitional, transitory or saving’. Title Amendment 134, page 96, line 14, leave out ‘Parts 1 Amendments made: 139, line 3 after ‘proceedings;’ to3of’. insert ‘to make provision about referral fees in connection Amendment 135, page 96, line 16, leave out from with the provision of legal services;’. ‘legislation’ to end of line 17.—(Mr Blunt.) Amendment 140, line 10 at end insert Clause 118 ‘; to create a new offence relating to squatting’. Amendment 141, line 10 at end insert EXTENT ‘; and to amend section 76 of the Criminal Justice Amendments made: 51, page 97, line 13, leave out and Immigration Act 2008’.—(Mr Blunt.) ‘Section 114 extends’ and insert ‘The following provisions Third Reading extend’. Amendment 52, page 97, line 13, at end insert ‘— 6.25 pm (a) sections104 and105, and (b) section114.’. Mr Kenneth Clarke: I beg to move, That the Bill be Amendment 53, page 97, line 17, leave out from ‘32,’ now read the Third time. to end of line 18. At the conclusion of many hours of copious debate Amendment 54, page 97, line 17, after ‘32,’ insert— on the Floor of the House and in Committee, I pay ‘() section [Northern Ireland: information about financial tribute to members of the Bill team from my Department, resources] and Schedule [Northern Ireland: information who have been working throughout on this marathon about financial resources], Bill, and to my two colleagues, the Under-Secretary of () sections38 to40,’. State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) and the Under-Secretary of Amendment 136, page 97, line 24, at end insert— State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate ‘( ) Subsection (5) does not apply to section [Reasonable force (Mr Blunt) who, I am glad to say, carried the burden of for the purposes of self-defence etc] (which extends to England the day in Committee and most of it on Report as well. and Wales only).’.—(Mr Blunt.) I am grateful to them all. It is an enormous Bill representing a major reform of Schedule 14 the criminal justice system and the justice system generally. It is overdue and the Government have made a good APPLICATION OF SECTIONS 90 TO 100 AND start on sorting out some of the problems facing the TRANSITIONAL AND TRANSITORY PROVISIONS justice system. I shall mention briefly the legal aid Amendment made: 20, page 185, line 12, leave out reforms, which have been debated again today. They are sub-paragraph (3).—(Mr Blunt.) extremely important. They make substantial savings and I acknowledge that we have had to make some Schedule 17 difficult choices. I am a lawyer and I have many friends who are KNIVES AND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS: MINOR AND practising lawyers. When I was given this post, I wondered CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS whether I would retain any friends in the legal profession Amendments made: 158, page 195, line 34, at end by the time we got to Christmas. I am glad to say that I insert— have, but some difficult decisions have been taken at the 10A In section 100 (offenders under 18: detention and training expense of some members of the profession, who have orders) after subsection (1) insert— already suffered reductions in their fees as a result of (1A) Subsection (1) applies with the omission of paragraph (b) the previous Government’s changes, and have probably in the case of an offence the sentence for which falls to be had a bigger reduction in their fee income, I concede, imposed under these provisions— than almost any other group in the country. So let us (a) section 1A of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 acknowledge that there are people facing consequences (threatening with weapon in public); as a result of what we have done, but it was much (b) section 139AA of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (threatening overdue. with article with blade or point or offensive weapon).”’. We have, as we keep saying, the most expensive legal Amendment 159, page 196, line 24, leave out ‘1A(5)’ aid system in the world. It has gone far beyond what and insert ‘1A(5A)(a)’. could be afforded. The previous Government made Amendment 160, page 196, line 27, leave out ‘139AA(7)’ repeated attempts to reform it and kept consulting on and insert ‘139AA(7A)(a)’. reforms and making changes. Even then they found, by Amendment 161, page 196, line 27, at end insert— the end of their period of office, that real-terms spending on legal aid had gone up quite substantially, compared ‘(4) In the case of an offence the sentence for which falls to be with when they took office. imposed under a provision mentioned in subsection (5), nothing in that provision prevents the court from imposing any sentence What we have done is not just a cheese-paring exercise that it considers appropriate after taking into account any matter across the whole field of legal aid. We have gone back to referred to in subsection (1) of this section. first principles and asked what is essential that the 1043 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1044 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Kenneth Clarke] As recently as January this year the leader of the Labour party said, in relation to reductions in legal aid: taxpayer pays for to assure access to justice on truly “Labour has shown it is ready to make difficult cuts that we important matters for that section of society that must believe are necessary for the long term health of our economy.” have access to justice in the public interest, so that we As far as we can work out, the various amendments can all be assured that people get the protections that tabled by the Labour party in the course of our debates they are entitled to under our constitution. That is what on the Bill would add £245 million to the legal aid bill, we have debated, one by one. compared with the Government’s proposals. I believe that the package that we have come up with will make substantial savings. As I was saying to the Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Evidently, hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) a few some of the amendments we tabled were not reported moments ago, the idea that we are launching some to the Secretary of State, because we also tabled assault on access to justice and depriving people of amendments intended to speed up the collection of access to justice is nonsense. We are not affecting the fines, on which the Ministry does not have a good right. There is no change in the Bill to any particular record. course of action. Legal aid is available, but it is available to the poorest people for those really essential matters Mr Clarke: We are tackling the collection of fines that affect their life, liberty, home and so on, and we vigorously, but I am afraid that the idea that the Labour have got it back under control. party’s amendments on the collection of fines would make any significant contribution to the monstrous Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): I know that hypothetical bill it was running up is ludicrous. the Secretary of State is aware of my concerns regarding the advice agencies that provide such vital support to Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) the vulnerable, and I know that additional money has (Lab): Will the Secretary of State give way? been provided for those agencies. May I press him to give us more detail about this so that we can be reassured Mr Clarke: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman, that those advice agencies, such as my own in Hastings, but I must press on. Other Members wish to speak and I will be able to continue their good work? do not want to take up all the time. I will turn to the sentencing provisions. We have gone Mr Clarke: Those who can remember Second Reading through major reforms in sentencing that contain many will know that the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, common sense measures, which have not been debated my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon and I kept much but which are intended to simplify the system stressing that we accept the need to maintain the funding and give greater professional discretion in many cases. for many voluntary agencies, particularly citizens advice The biggest controversy has concerned the repeal of bureaux, which give not only legal advice, but general indeterminate sentences, which was accepted very readily advice to people suffering from problems of debt, housing by most Members yesterday. That is a much overdue and so on, which we all know are bound to get worse in reform. The introduction of indeterminate sentences these rather difficult times. A total of £20 million has never worked as people intended. It was a major been allocated to these bodies this year and we are mistake and a major blot on our justice system that looking ahead at how to continue that support. would not have survived challenge in either the British I should point out that our legal aid changes will not courts or in Strasbourg if it had carried on much longer. take effect for a couple of years, so none of those bodies We have put in place a system of long determinate has lost any legal aid funding at the moment. What we sentences for the most serious criminals, which I think are doing is finding money to make up for reductions in gives protection. grant to those bodies that are largely from local authorities. We have not debated the other difficult area, knife The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. crime, over which there was some controversy. The Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner Government are determined to get the message clearly (Mr Hurd) is about to announce how we will distribute across to the public that knife crime will not be tolerated. the £20 million. I know that he is in touch with my hon. We wish to stop people believing that knife crime will Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) not be punished properly in the criminal justice system. and expects to be able to make the announcement For that reason, we tabled proposals introducing a imminently so that we can get on with that. mandatory sentence of six months for adults who are I have left the debates on legal aid to the Under-Secretary guilty of threatening with a knife in circumstances of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for where it might cause physical injury, which is a new Huntingdon because, as everyone has seen, he is a offence we have created. That is in line with the six walking expert on the subject. There seemed to be no months already specified in the sentencing guidelines point in my taking part in debates on amendments and for that kind of offence, but it makes it clear that having to turn to him if a particularly difficult question that sentence should normally be expected automatically was asked. However, I have been present throughout for that offence, unless it would otherwise be unjust to the debates and listening to how Labour Members have do so. tackled the matter. They seem to have lost all touch Amendments were tabled by my hon. Friend the with common sense. When in government they were Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) and by the reducing expenditure on legal aid, or trying to and Opposition seeking to extend that proposal to juveniles. failing. In their manifesto they committed to reducing I am glad to say that, following discussions with my spending on legal aid, stating: hon. Friends the Members for Enfield North and for “we will find greater savings in legal aid.” Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes)—the latter is a 1045 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1046 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Parliamentary Private Secretary and so cannot table the action that was brought. We are not stopping the amendments—we finally agreed, that as 30-odd Back actions; we are getting the costs in proportion to the Benchers supported the amendments, to introduce a claim. All those disputes about legal aid and no win, no mandatory offence for 16 and 17-year-olds. Again, that fee are not about access to justice; they are about the sounds rather formidable, because I am not very keen profitability of the actions for lawyers. on mandatory sentences for juveniles, but the offence is I am a lawyer, and I have the highest respect for very serious, and it is only for 16 and 17-year-olds lawyers and no intention of offending the legal profession, and— but in the lobbying of this House and the upper House we have had an army of lawyers advancing behind a Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): front of women and children—vulnerable claimants Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way? who they say would not be represented if they are not Mr Clarke: I will in just a second. paid as much as they are now. I am afraid I do not believe that. The offence also confirms that the court, at the same time, will have to have regard to the duties under the The fact is that we introduced no win, no fee. These Children Acts, which mean— actions were brought because my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Mackay insisted on introducing no win, no Mr Tom Clarke: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. fee to this country, and the system worked from the time of the Major Government perfectly well. The previous Mr Speaker: Point of order, if the Secretary of State Government were persuaded to make it more profitable will just hold on. Point of order, Mr Tom Clarke. by making the changes that they made, but the costs have got out of all proportion to the claim. Mr Tom Clarke rose— Let me turn to knife crime. There is a serious problem Mr Speaker: I hope it is. in Enfield, and I had discussions with my hon. Friends the Members for Enfield North and for Enfield, Southgate Mr Tom Clarke: CBE, Sir. because of that serious problem with knife crime. It Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, you could not be here exists throughout the country, but it is localised and can earlier, when again, again and again I asked Ministers be very bad. to give way. Is there something in “Erskine May” which says, “You don’t give way to the right hon. Member for Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con) rose— Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill”? Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend seeks to intervene. We Mr Speaker: No. It is uncharacteristic of the right reached agreement on the amendments that have now hon. Gentleman to be suffering from a persecution been made to the Bill at his instigation and that of my complex, and I hope that it will not be repeated. He is hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate. just unlucky today. Nick de Bois: I am grateful to the Secretary of State Mr Clarke: I was about to give way to my hon. and for allowing this intervention. Does he agree that the learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West important thing about the introduction of the measure Devon (Mr Cox), but I have the highest regard for the to the Bill is that for the first time in youth sentencing right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill services it is clear that, if a 16 or 17-year-old carries a (Mr Clarke), whom I have known for years, and this is knife and uses it in a threatening and endangering the first time that I have rebuffed him, so I will give way, fashion, they will go to jail? Indeed, it sends a very as he insists. He is obviously getting worried about this. strong message to the courts, so my constituents will Mr Tom Clarke rose— rest a little easier when it is passed into law. Mr Clarke: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember Mr Clarke: That is entirely true, and I congratulate what he wished to intervene on? my hon. Friend on his advocacy, but we should both point out that we are talking about the minimum sentence. Mr Tom Clarke: I recall the right hon. and learned When we look at the nature of the offence we have Gentleman’s reference to the junior Minister, the Under- created, we find that it is a serious knife offence, and Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for many people—adults and juveniles—will be sent away Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), and his walking intelligence for longer than the minimum that we specify in the Bill. and so on. All I have tried to do through my interventions The minimum catches people who might not otherwise is to secure what non-governmental organisations and have got a custodial sentence. In really serious cases, aid agencies want to hear regarding amendments 150 juveniles should get more than a four-month detention and 151, and to find out the Government’s attitude to and training order and adults should get more than a British and international firms that are involved in six-month sentence, but there will be a spread of seriousness abuses overseas. among individual cases. What we have put forward is a mandatory minimum; in the case of juveniles, my hon. Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend the Minister referred to Friend and I agree that it is right that the special way in the Trafigura case a moment ago, but we do not believe which the courts treat offenders who are under 18 that our changes to the no win, no fee system will should be applied. That is where we are. prevent access to justice. Only a few moments ago we heard my hon. Friend point out that, even in the Trafigura Several hon. Members rose— case, the millions of pounds paid to the lawyers far exceeded the millions of pounds paid to the claimants. Mr Clarke: I am sorry but I shall not give way The average citizen of the Ivory Coast got £1,000 out of because other people want to speak. 1047 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1048 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Kenneth Clarke] on the many hours he has spent here, to reflect on the wisdom of my hon. Friends the two Under-Secretaries Let me conclude by going back to the Labour party. and to do better next time. Obviously, I am familiar with our own proposals but I have been listening to what the Labour party has been 6.44 pm putting forward, which tells us a lot about whether that party is ready for government. I have been facing the Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): When the Justice Secretary Labour movement for a very long time now—particularly has been in government for 13 years in a row and has the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and had crime going down by 43% with 7 million fewer Bellshill, with whom I am familiar. I do not know what victims a year, I will be lectured by him about law and he thinks is happening to his party because the Opposition’s order. position on this has been pitched at a section of the May I begin how the Justice Secretary began, with tabloid press that I have never heard the Labour party some thank yous? First, I thank the Front-Bench teams aim at so far as they have been doing. I did not expect on both sides for their hard work during the Bill’s that from the shadow Justice Secretary. Let me quote progress through Parliament. By and large, they have from the BBC’s Politics Show on 31 October 2010—a got on reasonably well, and have done a huge amount year ago—when he said that he was “not going to say” of hard work on Second Reading, in Committee and on that I am being Report. I thank them and their advisers for that. I also “soft on crime…because he is asking the right questions about thank Back Benchers. Debates on Second Reading, in rehabilitation rates”. Committee and on Report have generally been well More recently, when he gave the Howard League lecture tempered. on 17 October 2011, he said: Two days ago, some hon. Members cheered the fact “Reforming prisons to reduce re-offending ultimately means that there were three days on Report. I hope that they safer communities up and down the country”. now regret being so cheery. Government statements—let The Justice Secretary has made extraordinary proposals us be frank, they were filibustering—caused elements of in relation to the Bill, the most preposterous of which the Bill to be wholly unscrutinised, including provisions were about knife crime. He tabled a new clause advocating on remand, knife crime, women in prison, conditional mandatory sentences for 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15-year-olds. fee agreements, and social welfare. I never expected to see even the most reactionary of Labour Members—even the right hon. Members for Mr Llwyd: The right hon. Gentleman referred to Blackburn (Mr Straw) and for Sheffield, Brightside and remand. May I take him on to bail? One of the Under- Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett)—putting forward such a Secretaries gave an understanding in Committee that proposition. We cannot estimate how many schoolchildren there would be an undertaking to deal with appeals would have been caught by such measures, but our best against the granting of bail. We were told that if that estimate is that about 350 would have had to be sent was not dealt with on Report, it would be dealt with in away. We would have had to build secure children’s the other place towards the conclusion of the Bill’s homes to hold them and all the special provisions under scrutiny. When I asked the Minister about that, I was the Children Acts would have been set aside. That was boorishly swatted away. Having been a member of the not a serious contribution to the debate, and serious Public Bill Committee, I had tabled amendments on the contributions are what we should make. matter, as did other hon. Members. The subject deserves I think the Bill is balanced. As I have said, it has been better than being slapped down, and we should press attacked from the right and the left, and it will be for some answers today. scrutinised carefully in another place. I think we have started to redress some of the problems that the previous Sadiq Khan: I have been in correspondence with the Government left behind. It is the inheritance of Tony Justice Secretary and, to be fair, he responded to my Blair, a man whom I admire in many ways. By the time letter. I am happy to allow him to intervene to put on he had finished in office he was getting very keen on the record the assurance that he gave me. reforming public services such as health and education. In my modest opinion, he was very good on health and Mr Clarke: I was not here during the incident to education by the time he finished, but he had no real which the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd interest in law and order and the criminal justice system. (Mr Llwyd) referred, but I am sure that he was not Tony Blair shadowed me when I was Home Secretary swatted away. There was probably anxiety to finish the and he produced a good soundbite but no policy. He debate. produced the phrase, I am happy to repeat the undertaking that the Under- “Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime,” Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member but he did not know what he meant. He had no real for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) gave then and in Committee. interest in the subject and all he did was encourage the We accept that in principle there is a good case for right hon. Members for Blackburn and for Sheffield, saying that there should be appeals against the allowing Brightside and Hillsborough to produce populist stuff of bail in the Crown court. We are working on the that filled the statute book with quite useless criminal details of that, and we propose to table amendments in justice legislation. This is serious reform to what was the House of Lords to meet that point. There is no caused by that Government, and the right hon. Member difference in this case, and I have already written to say for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) who shadows me should look what we are striving to do. We intend to table an at his party’s record. He should not make things worse amendment to meet the wishes of the right hon. Members by going on proposing preposterous things, as he has for Dwyfor Meirionnydd and for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), done in this debate. I advise him to go away and reflect and some hon. Members on the Government Benches. 1049 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1050 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Sadiq Khan: I thank the Justice Secretary for his Another substantive objection to the Bill is the clarification. I hope that the right hon. Member for Government’s cherry-picking of Sir Rupert Jackson’s Dwyfor Meirionnydd is reassured. However, that illustrates proposals on civil litigation. That will create an obstacle to the problem with the way in which the Bill has been those who rely on no win, no fee cases to challenge dealt with. There have been three Green Papers, some of the powerful in our society. The Government consultation, Second Reading and a long Committee have even ignored the protestations of those involved in stage upstairs, yet at the 11th hour the Government high-profile cases, such as the family of Milly Dowler. have tabled new clauses at the last possible moment Only this morning, on the “Today” programme, we which have not been subjected to the proper due processes heard the calmness with which Christopher Jefferies that have existed in the House for generations, and for articulated how he benefited from a conditional fee good reason. The way in which the Bill has been drafted, agreement in pursuing claims against national managed and taken through the House has been shambolic. newspapers—an option that will not be available to The Bill is bad for the most vulnerable in society; it is further victims of wrongdoing if this Bill is passed, bad for the victims of crime; it is bad for reforming because there will be nobody left to advise them. offenders; and it is bad for the safety of our communities. The Government’s policy on sentencing is an utter That is why we oppose it, and will vote against giving it mess. Despite their claims, it does not bring clarity to a Third Reading. the system, it is not based on common sense, and it will If the Bill remains unchanged by the other place, it not increase public confidence. Totally abolishing will lead to the dismantling of legal aid, which has been indeterminate sentences takes away judges’ power to a critical part of the post-war welfare state. Some keep in custody the serious and violent offenders who 600,000 or 700,000 people in England and Wales, depending put society most at risk by reoffending. These on whose figures are used, will no longer be able to proposals in no way fill the gap left by the removal of secure legal aid. It is being dismantled in a way that falls indeterminate sentences. All this has been done in disproportionately on those most in need, at a time 73 minutes during the course of the past three days. The when they need it most. That is why so many people are Justice Secretary’s policies on sentencing have been furious at the proposals. startlingly inconsistent over the past 12 months. Let us I am less worried about the Justice Secretary losing not forget that he began by saying that he had a target friends; I am more worried about those who need to reduce the prison population: first, the figure was justice not getting it. We and others have offered alternative 6,500; then it was 3,500; and then it was 3,000—and this savings in the legal aid budget, but the Government week he has published an impact assessment giving the have dismissed the alternatives and have pushed ahead figure of 2,600. with slashing social welfare law: debt advice, housing I cannot end without dealing with the Liberal Democrats. advice, welfare benefits advice and employment advice. They speak sanctimoniously from their Benches and None of those who provide that advice are milking the they brief sympathetic newspapers and communities gravy train and making huge sums of money. that they will stand up to this Conservative Government, but when it comes to pushing their amendments to a Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Does my vote, they withdraw them on the basis of meaningless right hon. Friend share my touch of cynicism about the assurances or simply vote with the Conservative impact of the legal aid cuts on social welfare and Government. They should be ashamed. welfare benefits, given that the people who are represented We will vote against giving this Bill a Third Reading. and receive the support of the legal aid system in order It is a shoddy Bill, and I sincerely hope that the other to be represented in the appeals system have a significantly place is able to carry out major surgery on it. higher chance of winning their appeals? If they do not have that level of representation, there will be fewer appeals, which will have the happy effect for the Government 6.52 pm of people not receiving the benefits to which they are Mr Burrowes: As we look forward to Christmas and entitled. see today the Third Reading of a criminal justice Bill, I am reminded of previous Government Bills that ended Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend raises a very good point, up as Christmas tree Bills with baubles being hung on which is about inequality of arms. These are some of them at any given opportunity as they went through the most vulnerable people who, with a bit of advice Parliament. I am sure that as this Bill goes to the other early on, will find that their quality of life is improved; place, Ministers will want to ensure that further baubles and all the evidence suggests that it saves the taxpayer are not hung on it in the form of extra pieces of law that money as well. Huge parts of the country will be devoid take the fancy of noble Lords, as well as any little elves. of the resources required to access justice because law I am particularly grateful for two important baubles centres, citizens advice bureaux and small high street in clauses 113 and 114—the significant victory for victims solicitors will close down. We will have, I am afraid, of crime concerning knife crime and serious injury by advice deserts around the country. dangerous driving. One could look at the bottom of But it does not stop there. In a further effort to save those provisions and see “Made in Enfield” on them. costs, the definition of “domestic violence” is being Six years ago, the Galli-Atkinson family in my constituency changed, which will lead to between 25,000 and 30,000 came to me after the sad loss of their daughter, who was women who are the victims of domestic violence the victim of a road crash in 1997. They told me about being denied legal aid. That could mean that vulnerable the impact on them of losing their loved one through women and children who are the victims of domestic the actions of a dangerous driver. They had campaigned violence will continue to suffer as a direct consequence vigorously for changes in dangerous driving legislation of the Bill. and increases in penalties, but when they came to me 1051 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1052 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Burrowes] we shall not be coming back to the House next year with another piece of criminal justice legislation. I there was unfinished business with a gap in legislation. commend the sentencing part of the Bill to the House. That led to my tabling an amendment in 2006 to try to plug that gap by ensuring that there is a specific offence 6.57 pm of serious injury by dangerous driving, and that is now Chris Bryant: One of the most important things that in the Bill. the House can ever afford to the citizens of this country I am sure that the whole House welcomes the fact is equal and fair access to justice. Notwithstanding the that we now have a maximum sentence of five years for remarks of the Lord Chancellor, I believe that the Bill such offences. That deals with issues such as the very will make it more difficult for my constituents to have recent incident involving Rachel Jones, who is aged 13. access to justice. She was crossing a road when she was hit by a car driven dangerously at 98 mph by Carl Smith, who was unlicensed Tom Brake: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? and drunk—an all too familiar story, sadly, across this Chris Bryant: I will not, if the right hon. Gentleman country. Rachel was left with severe brain damage, and does not mind. she will be in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. She has no movement in the right side of her body. Her I shall not go into the issue of legal aid, but I want to mum, Sheri Ozdemir, described Smith’s two-year jail speak briefly about conditional fee agreements. The sentence as “a joke”. Thanks to the Bill, there need be Lord Chancellor was absolutely right to say that it was no more jokes like that; such offences will be taken a Conservative Government who introduced them, and seriously and will attract a five-year sentence. they were right to do so. In privacy and defamation cases, the awards are for the most part very small. In Clause 114 deals with knife crime. I pay tribute to my privacy cases, they are universally small. No privacy hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de case has ever involved an award of more than £60,000, Bois) for championing this issue locally and nationally, yet such cases cost many hundreds of thousands of and raising awareness in Enfield and elsewhere of the pounds to take to court. Similarly, the vast majority of prevalence of knife crime— awards in defamation cases come in at less than £50,000. A few get up to £100,000, and of course prominence is Karl Turner: What about me? given in the press to the much bigger ones. I am sure that it is not the Lord Chancellor’s intention, Mr Burrowes: I was talking about knife crime, but I but the danger in the Government’s proposals is that also pay tribute to the work done by the hon. Member lawyers will simply not be able to take on such cases. for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) on injury Yes, they might take on cases such as the Dowlers or caused by dangerous driving. He made his case very Christopher Jefferies, because they are open and shut well in Committee, and I recognise my omission. cases, but in the vast majority of the cases relating to Knife crime is a real issue; I have seen many cases phone hacking, people are already terrified of taking an going through the youth courts. Sadly, there seems to action because they do not want to have to go through have been a blind spot when it comes to sentencing, the whole business of having their privacy re-explored however. There has not been uniform enforcement of by the national newspapers and in court. Those people the law in this area, and there is a need to plug that gap. will have no opportunity in the future. I should tell the Under clause 114, anyone carrying a knife who is House that I myself have used a conditional fee agreement, threatening and endangering life is likely to go to prison. and that if it were not for lawyers being prepared to act If they are 16 or over, they will have to go to prison on that basis, there is no way that the whole phone unless there are exceptional circumstances. Yes, we must hacking scandal would have been exposed. pay due regard to the circumstances of young people, Question put, That the Bill be now read a Third time. but the intention of the clause is that a custody threshold will have been reached. That has been welcomed in The House divided: Ayes 306, Noes 228. Enfield and across the country. Division No. 391] [6.59 pm The Bill is good news for the victims of knife crime AYES and of dangerous driving. The duties in the Bill relating to compensation are now going to be systemic, and that Adams, Nigel Bingham, Andrew is important to the victims of crime. Prisoners will need Afriyie, Adam Binley, Mr Brian Aldous, Peter Birtwistle, Gordon to consider their victims as they serve their sentences; Amess, Mr David Blackman, Bob when they earn money, it will go into a victims’ fund. Andrew, Stuart Blackwood, Nicola We will also at last see an open door to businesses, Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blunt, Mr Crispin ensuring that prisons will work. The prisons Minister Bacon, Mr Richard Boles, Nick joined me in celebrating the 2,000th graduate from the Baker, Norman Bone, Mr Peter National Grid young offender programme. Those people Baker, Steve Bottomley, Sir Peter are now getting into real work and getting out of crime. Baldry, Tony Bradley, Karen Their reoffending rate is a very low percentage, compared Baldwin, Harriett Brady, Mr Graham with the national average. The Bill opens up the way for Barclay, Stephen Brake, rh Tom projects such as those, and many more. On prisons, we Barker, Gregory Bray, Angie want to say that we are not locking out the community; Baron, Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian we are open for business. Barwell, Gavin Bridgen, Andrew Bebb, Guto Brine, Steve This is a reforming Bill; it does not simply seek to Beith, rh Sir Alan Brokenshire, James introduce more legislation without due regard. As we Beresford, Sir Paul Brooke, Annette look to the new year, I want there to be a resolution that Berry, Jake Browne, Mr Jeremy 1053 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1054 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Bruce, Fiona Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Simmonds, Mark Bruce, rh Malcolm Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Buckland, Mr Robert Hague, rh Mr William McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Skidmore, Chris Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan Mensch, Louise Smith, Henry Burns, rh Mr Simon Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Burrowes, Mr David Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Burstow, Paul Hancock, Mr Mike Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Burt, Lorely Hands, Greg Miller, Maria Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Byles, Dan Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Spencer, Mr Mark Cairns, Alun Harrington, Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Stevenson, John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Bob Carmichael, Neil Hayes, Mr John Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Iain Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel Cash, Mr William Heath, Mr David Morris, David Stuart, Mr Graham Chishti, Rehman Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Sturdy, Julian Chope, Mr Christopher Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Swinson, Jo Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Syms, Mr Robert Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Teather, Sarah Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Thurso, John Crabb, Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward Crockart, Mike Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Crouch, Tracey Howarth, Mr Gerald Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David Davey, Mr Edward Howell, John Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth Davies, David T. C. Hughes, rh Simon Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew (Monmouth) Huhne, rh Chris Offord, Mr Matthew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Davies, Glyn Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Uppal, Paul de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Vaizey, Mr Edward Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Vara, Mr Shailesh Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti Vickers, Martin Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pawsey, Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Penning, Mike Walker, Mr Charles Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Penrose, John Wallace, Mr Ben Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Percy, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Perry, Claire Watkinson, Angela Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Phillips, Stephen Weatherley, Mike Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Pickles, rh Mr Eric Webb, Steve Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Pincher, Christopher Wharton, James Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Wheeler, Heather Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John White, Chris Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Whittaker, Craig Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Farron, Tim Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John Wiggin, Bill Featherstone, Lynne Laws, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Willetts, rh Mr David Field, Mark Leadsom, Andrea Reevell, Simon Williams, Mr Mark Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Roger Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williams, Stephen Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Williamson, Gavin Freeman, George Leigh, Mr Edward Rudd, Amber Willott, Jenny Freer, Mike Leslie, Charlotte Ruffley, Mr David Wilson, Mr Rob Fullbrook, Lorraine Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Bob Wollaston, Dr Sarah Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Wright, Jeremy Gale, Mr Roger Lewis, Dr Julian Sanders, Mr Adrian Wright, Simon Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Yeo, Mr Tim Gauke, Mr David Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Young, rh Sir George George, Andrew Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Sharma, Alok Tellers for the Ayes: Glen, John Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, Alec James Duddridge and Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Shepherd, Mr Richard Mark Hunter Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary NOES Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Abbott, Ms Diane Alexander, Heidi Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Abrahams, Debbie Ali, Rushanara Green, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Ashworth, Jonathan Greening, rh Justine Maynard, Paul Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Jason Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Austin, Ian 1055 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 2 NOVEMBER 2011 1056 Punishment of Offenders Bill Bailey, Mr Adrian Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Shannon, Jim Bain, Mr William Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Sharma, Mr Virendra Balls, rh Ed Flynn, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Sheerman, Mr Barry Banks, Gordon Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Shuker, Gavin Barron, rh Mr Kevin Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Skinner, Mr Dennis Beckett, rh Margaret Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Begg, Dame Anne Gilmore, Sheila Michael, rh Alun Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bell, Sir Stuart Glass, Pat Miliband, rh David Smith, Angela Benn, rh Hilary Glindon, Mrs Mary Miller, Andrew Smith, Nick Berger, Luciana Godsiff, Mr Roger Mitchell, Austin Smith, Owen Betts, Mr Clive Goggins, rh Paul Morden, Jessica Spellar, rh Mr John Blackman-Woods, Roberta Goodman, Helen Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Straw, rh Mr Jack Blears, rh Hazel Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Stringer, Graham Blenkinsop, Tom Green, Kate (Easington) Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blomfield, Paul Greenwood, Lilian Mudie, Mr George Tami, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Thomas, Mr Gareth Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Mr Jim Thornberry, Emily Brennan, Kevin Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Timms, rh Stephen Brown, Lyn Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa Trickett, Jon Brown, Mr Russell Havard, Mr Dai Nash, Pamela Turner, Karl Bryant, Chris Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Twigg, Derek Buck, Ms Karen Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Twigg, Stephen Burden, Richard Heyes, David Osborne, Sandra Vaz, Valerie Burnham, rh Andy Hillier, Meg Owen, Albert Walley, Joan Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa Ward, Mr David Campbell, Mr Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Perkins, Toby Watson, Mr Tom Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hoey, Kate Pound, Stephen Whitehead, Dr Alan Caton, Martin Hood, Mr Jim Qureshi, Yasmin Williams, Hywel Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Williamson, Chris Clark, Katy Howarth, rh Mr George Reed, Mr Jamie Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Winnick, Mr David Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Jonathan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Connarty, Michael Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda Wood, Mike Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Woodcock, John Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, rh Alan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wright, David Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Rotheram, Steve Wright, Mr Iain Crausby, Mr David Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Creagh, Mary Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Tellers for the Noes: Creasy, Stella Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Graham Jones and Cruddas, Jon Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Mr David Hamilton Cryer, John Joyce, Eric Cunningham, Alex Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Question accordingly agreed to. Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara Cunningham, Tony Kendall, Liz Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. Curran, Margaret Khan, rh Sadiq Dakin, Nic Lammy, rh Mr David Business without Debate Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian David, Mr Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Davidson, Mr Ian Leech, Mr John DELEGATED LEGISLATION Davies, Geraint Leslie, Chris De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall Dobbin, Jim Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn take motions 3 to 8 together. Dobson, rh Frank Long, Naomi Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Caroline Order No. 118(6)), Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Dowd, Jim MacShane, rh Mr Denis CAPITAL GAINS TAX Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, Fiona That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid Enforcement (Armenia) Order 2011, which was laid before this Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana House on 14 September, be approved. Eagle, Maria Mann, John That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Edwards, Jonathan Marsden, Mr Gordon Enforcement (China) Order 2011, which was laid before this Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve House on 14 September, be approved. Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry Enforcement (Ethiopia) Order 2011, which was laid before this Engel, Natascha McClymont, Gregg House on 14 September, be approved. Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain Evans, Chris McDonnell, John INCOME TAX Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat That the draft Double Taxation Relief (Aircraft Crew) (Brazil) Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 14 September, be Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim approved. 1057 Business without Debate 2 NOVEMBER 2011 1058

CAPITAL GAINS TAX University Technical Colleges That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Enforcement (Hungary) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 10 October, be approved. do now adjourn.—(Stephen Crabb.)

OLYMPIC GAMES AND PARALYMPIC GAMES 7.13 pm That the draft London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I am incredibly (Advertising and Trading) (England) Regulations 2011, which grateful for this debate. I spoke about apprenticeships were laid before this House on 10 October, be approved.—(Stephen Crabb.) and vocational training in my maiden speech, and have campaigned regularly since joining the House last year Question agreed to. for apprenticeships and apprenticeship rights. I have now worked for many months behind the scenes with BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Harlow college, Anglia Ruskin university and employers Ordered, in my constituency to apply for a university technical school in Harlow, which I will talk more about later. That, at the sitting on Wednesday 9 November, paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall Although universal technology colleges have not yet apply to the Motions in the name of Edward Miliband as if the received the same media attention as free schools and day were an Opposition Day; proceedings on the Motions may the huge expansion of the academy programme, they continue, though opposed, until the moment of interruption and are an equally profound reform of our school system. shall then lapse if not previously disposed of; and Standing Order They are hugely popular, and something that we should No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Stephen Crabb.) think about in their own right. I want to make three points. First, for decades we allowed vocational education to decline. Secondly, for growth, skills and jobs, UTCs represent the reform that we need. Thirdly, the results are positive, and we should support a massive roll-out of UTCs around the United Kingdom. When the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) called the general election in 2010, there were nearly 1 million young people unemployed. The same is broadly true today. However, youth unemployment is not a recent crisis. Figures from the Department for Work and Pensions show that it has grown steadily worse and worse over the past 10 years. In Essex, in particular, nearly 4,000 young people are not in employment, education or training. My constituency is one of the worst affected towns. We have allowed our skills base and vocational education to decline. In the past 10 years in Austria and Germany, one in four businesses offered apprenticeships to young people, but in England that figure was just one in 10.

Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): I am listening with great sympathy to what my hon. Friend says about his constituency, because in my area of Medway we have had a similar problem with the closure of the dockyard 25 years ago. We lost an enormous employer that had trained hundreds and thousands of apprentices, so for us, UTCs would provide a new opportunity to develop in that area. With the Royal School of Military Engineering and MidKent college, there is a real partnership approach. I look forward to learning—

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is developing a most interesting argument, but I want to hear Mr Halfon.

Robert Halfon: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I think that my remarks later will address some of his points. Thanks largely to the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) and the Minister of State, Department for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), the Government have increased the number of apprentices to a record level this year—up 1059 University Technical Colleges2 NOVEMBER 2011 University Technical Colleges 1060

[Robert Halfon] As Lord Baker said a few weeks ago, “10,000 students are now set to attend University Technical 50% to 442,700, with increases at all levels and age Colleges by 2015”. groups. However, we are starting from a low base. In That means 10,000 fewer youngsters on the dole, and 2009 there were about 11 apprentices for every 1,000 10,000 more students learning the high-tech skills of the workers. In France that figure was 17, in Austria 33, in future to support British industry, manufacturing, and Australia 39, and in Germany 40. In 2009 our young growth. people were four times worse off for apprenticeships than young people in Germany. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): We are fortunate in Northern Ireland to have technical colleges—the Considering that the Berlin wall fell only 20 years South Eastern Regional college campus in Newtownards ago, that is deeply shocking and shows just how is an example—that give young people exactly what the uncompetitive the UK economy has become. For years hon. Gentleman is referring to: an opportunity to train, Germany reaped the benefits of its skills policy and a build their confidence and get a job outside, or be culture that valued apprentices and gave prestige to directed towards one. I encourage him to look up the vocational learning. Germany built up its manufacturing South Eastern Regional college website to see exactly and hi-tech industry while we lost out, not only under what he hopes to achieve in action. the previous Government but, honestly, during the 1990s. I agree with the analysis of Lord Baker, who was one of Robert Halfon: I would be delighted to look at that our finest Education Secretaries and was, in many ways, website, and I would like to study it more, because it is the forefather of the UTC movement, along with the good to see successful examples in action. late Ron Dearing. Lord Baker wrote in the Yorkshire So far, 18 new UTCs have received support from the Post in 2008: Education Secretary, with 13 announced last month, “One thing our country has missed out on is good vocational and 130 companies are supporting them, which I think schools. Several attempts have been made since the 1870s, but is a record in industrial investment. For the past three they have generally fallen by the wayside. The 1944 Butler Education years the Baker Dearing Educational Trust has worked Act established three types of school—grammar, secondary modern with the Department for Education, the private sector, and technical, but the first to disappear was the technical school universities and further education colleges to build the as it had become”— network. The Chancellor has doubled the funding for to quote the Latin— UTCs and found money for at least 24. The Opposition always go on about cuts and the legacy of youth “‘infra-dig’. Ironically, this English pattern was adopted by Germany in 1945 and became very successful: their youngsters who attend unemployment—left by the last Government, as I have technical schools acquire skills in engineering, construction, mentioned—but we are talking about a concrete investment manufacturing and design. Germany’s technical schools today of at least £150 million pounds, with more funds levered have more applicants than their grammar schools and Germany in from the private sector, to tackle that very issue. This produces several times the number of qualified technicians than is not small beer. the UK.” Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): I agree with the We simply cannot afford to keep producing generation thrust of everything that my hon. Friend is saying, so is after generation of rootless university graduates with it not disappointing that at least one union leader in the purely academic qualifications who lack the skills that education sector has come out against UTCs? Is that industry needs. not incredible? What are UTCs, and why will they succeed where other attempts have failed? As Lords Baker and Adonis Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is almost a mind said when first proposing the UTC model, we need a reader, because I was about to say that it is disappointing vocational route that is rigorous, attractive and as prestigious that, not so long ago, John Bangs of the National as the best academic routes. That simply does not exist Union of Teachers said of UTCs: in our current schools system. As the Prime Minister “There is a real fear about a move towards selection by put it recently, the expansion of UTCs will be division, selection by direction and selection by assumption, with these routes being mapped out for kids for evermore” “the next great poverty-busting structural change we need…offering first-class technical skills to those turned off by purely academic That is the mindset of the left, which we have to consign study.” to the dustbin, because UTCs will create opportunity and social justice for everyone. He is also wrong, because However, the key reform is that major local employers, there are no tests to enter a UTC at 14: they are especially in manufacturing and industry, will help to inclusive, not exclusive. To be fair, it is no accident that write the curriculum, which has never been tried before. the Baker Dearing Educational Trust is a cross-party As the recent schools White Paper said: project that is strongly supported by Lord Adonis—who, “Pupils at the JCB Academy in…Staffordshire, will study a although he is from the other side of the fence, is curriculum designed to produce the engineers and business leaders someone I admire greatly. The chief executive officer of of the future…They will complete engineering tasks that have the Baker Dearing Educational Trust, Peter Mitchell, been set by JCB and other Academy partners including Rolls-Royce, was a head teacher for 18 years in Walsall and Staffordshire. Toyota and Network Rail.” He turned round a failing school and was mentioned Early results are positive. They prove that UTCs are an twice in the chief inspector’s report as “outstanding”. I instrument of social justice, as well as economic efficiency. believe that the UTC movement should unite the House, At the JCB academy, for example, students wear business not divide it. suits. There are reports that truancy has been reduced In conclusion, I want to talk briefly about Harlow’s significantly and GCSE results, particularly in the core bid for a UTC, which I mentioned at the beginning of subjects of English and Maths, have massively improved. my speech. Harlow is a new town. It was built after the 1061 University Technical Colleges2 NOVEMBER 2011 University Technical Colleges 1062 second world war, with a vision to change people’s lives and enemies, we shall…depend more than anything else on the and create jobs and growth, but its potential is still skill of our people...therefore…we must concentrate upon producing unfulfilled. School results have risen sharply over the the most highly-skilled technologists the world can show.”—[Official past 10 years. Most secondary schools now perform Report, 23 March 1944; Vol. 398, c. 1086.] around the national average, and this year two secondary Exactly the same is true today. schools became academies. I am sure that the Minister It is not enough just to support and fund UTCs; we will have watched the excellent recent television programme have to evangelise about them. Just the other week the about Passmores school. statement on UTCs was tacked on to the end of the Harlow college is now widely recognised as one of statement on free schools at the end of a long day—just the best further education colleges in the country, with after the former Defence Secretary had also addressed pass rates exceeding 99.5%. Anglia Ruskin university the House. UTCs, however, are not just an extension of opened in the town this term a campus, which now has free schools; they will transform our skills base and the approximately 200 students studying for degrees. Wherever lives of young people, and they will be a conveyor belt I go in Harlow, parents are delighted with the idea of a to professional apprenticeships. They are the phase 1 of new apprentice school, which is exactly what it is, and an apprentice revolution in Britain and the reaction they have no ideological objections. In fact, the Harlow from the public—parents, students and others—has bid for a UTC is not opposed by the local state schools. been unbelievably positive. That is why they have to be Harlow council and Essex county council have said that centre-stage, not backstage. When the second round is they support UTCs, and would like to see a UTC in announced next year—including Harlow, I hope—I Harlow. would like UTCs to get a separate statement in their own right, showing that they are a forceful answer to In the first round, we assembled a strong bid, but the youth unemployment that we have inherited. They found out only very late in the process that Harlow was will then prove that the apprenticeships are no longer to benefit from an enterprise zone, specialising in bio-tech second class, and are now first class. and medical technology. In his feedback, Lord Hill was very fair and made the point that we should now reflect I hope that, ultimately, every British student will be the new enterprise zone in our bid. That was the right able to say—just as the Minister for Further Education, decision; it is worth taking the time to get the bid right. Skills and Lifelong Learning, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings, said yesterday at The Harlow partners are responding to that feedback. a UTC reception in the House—“I only became an Anglia Ruskin is broadening its university courses, to academic because I wasn’t clever enough to be practical.” meet the needs of the emerging “MedTech” enterprise zone, with firms like Bupa Home Healthcare. Harlow council is delivering the proposed “MedTech”campus—a 7.30 pm specialised industrial estate, which will employ the highly Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): I congratulate skilled technicians that a UTC provides. Harlow already my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) has several biotech and pharmaceutical firms, such as on securing this important debate, and thank him for GlaxoSmithKlein, and is in the London-Cambridge encouraging me to contribute to it, albeit very briefly. I science corridor. We have several strong local hospitals— am a great admirer of the work that he has done to primarily Princess Alexandra hospital and the Rivers promote education, both in the House and in his private hospital in Sawbridgeworth. The Health Protection constituency. In the short time for which he has been a Agency is considering a move to Harlow, partly because Member of Parliament, he has made an enormous of its own financial position, and partly because of the contribution to education and to education debates. enterprise zone. I hope that in due course it too will Yesterday I was fortunate enough to host a reception have a need for medical technicians and engineers. In on the House of Commons Terrace for university technical the second wave of UTC applications we hope to include colleges—which was also attended by my hon. Friend— medical technology as one of the Harlow specialisms, together with Lord Baker of Dorking, who, as my hon. and to submit an even stronger bid. I hope that the Friend said, is chairman of the Baker Dearing Educational Minister was listening very carefully to that last statement. Trust, and is a passionate advocate of UTCs. That If there is one thing that I would urge the Minister to reception was instructive. It was attended by people do, it would be to go much further and much faster. As from all over the country, from the great and the good the Baker Dearing Educational Trust has said: to the UTC community and the many who want to be “The Government has committed to funding 24 UTCs. But we members of that community—and it was clear from the hope to see 100 within five years.” attendance at that reception that very many people We know that public spending is constrained, but UTCs want to join it. It was also highly informative to hear so offer us the chance to get back to the great vision of many positive stories from those who have been involved Rab Butler, who sought to establish a high-quality in the UTCs that have been set up, and to learn how technical education in Britain for the first time. It is well the schools are doing. worth quoting what Rab Butler said in this very House It was said at the reception that the UTCs had about his Bill in 1944: become a movement. I have the impression that there is “It is very wrong that in so many parts of England, particularly a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to harness the enormous in industrial areas, which I have visited myself, that decades have energy and good will towards UTCs that emanates been allowed to elapse before the technical development necessary from the Government, universities, further education for education in those areas has come to anything at all. There are colleges and, in particular, private businesses. In many many towns and cities I have been to in which the technical college has always been the mirage in the distance across the other ways, that is not surprising, because the enthusiasm side of the desert. We cannot allow that state of affairs to go on, spans the political divide. In most respects, UTCs have and that is why we insist that there should be a proper development secured a cross-party consensus. Both Lord Baker and of technical education...Compared to our competitors, friends Lord Adonis have, in different ways, put their fingerprints 1063 University Technical Colleges2 NOVEMBER 2011 University Technical Colleges 1064

[Mr Rob Wilson] of their background, and to improve our performance in relation to the highest-performing systems in the on their creation. Just to complete the all-party celebration, world. UTCs offer choice to parents and pupils, in we have a coalition Government who are expanding particular those best suited to a more technical approach the new schools and delivering a big increase in their to education. They also provide competition to other number. I am delighted to say that my constituency will schools, thus encouraging them to raise their game. gain a UTC, and that large numbers of private businesses UTCs specialise in subjects that need modern, technical, are supporting it. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead industry-standard equipment, such as engineering, (Mr Field)—I hope he does not mind my mentioning construction, product design and life sciences. These this—told me that he had taken Lord Baker to his disciplines are taught alongside business and ICT. Students constituency to lobby him for the creation of a new also integrate academic study with practical education, UTC. and so study the core GCSEs alongside technical As I have said, this is very much a cross-party movement, qualifications, thus covering the basics of English, and I hope that it will continue to be so. Let me explain mathematics, science and often a language and one of why. I think all parties clearly understand that Britain the humanities. lags behind some of our European neighbours in its UTCs are sponsored by a local university, employers approach to technical education. My hon. Friend mentioned and, in most cases, a further education college with Germany—a country which, as a European industrial strengths in the UTC’s specialist subject areas. That powerhouse, boasts a long history of taking its technical helps to ensure aspirational pathways to higher education, education seriously. Consequently, the Germans have as well as access to opportunities within industry. UTCs benefited. Germany is now an incredibly successful are unique in that they develop their education around exporter as a result of its continued investment in its the needs of local employers and industry. Crucially, the technical skills base. UTC specialisms and the curriculum are designed by UTCs offer our country a real opportunity to plug a the university and employer sponsors. UTCs link local gap, to catch up and to take the next step on a journey partners into the design and delivery of the education, towards supporting, and indeed creating, a more technically and also provide mentoring and meaningful work based economy and industry. That journey has been experience for pupils. UTCs have much the same freedoms damagingly slow for the UK. Rab Butler’s Education as free schools and academies. That allows them to be Act 1944 recognised secondary technical schools under innovative, such as by choosing to employ engineers the tripartite system, but there was little progress until with an industry background alongside qualified teachers, Lord Baker’s city technology college scheme in the by developing and delivering innovative projects for 1980s. In fact, it has taken more than 60 years for this pupils, and by using an extended school day of 8.30 am whole strategy to reach the point of lift-off. to 5.30 pm and a longer school year of 40 weeks to prepare students for the world of work. Technical education has often not been taken seriously, and has frequently been recorded as secondary to the Two UTCs are already open: the JCB academy in academic route. Well, we can finally put that right, and Staffordshire, and the Black Country UTC in Walsall. in so doing, plug a skills shortage and unlock the Thanks to the leadership shown by Lords Baker and boundless potential of thousands of young people in Adonis, as well as the late Lord Dearing, coupled with this country whose gifts just happen to lie in the technical the vision of Sir Anthony Bamford of JCB, the first rather than the academic area. UTC opened its doors in September last year. It specialises in engineering and business. Its belief is that no matter how good an engineer someone is, if they cannot do 7.34 pm business too, they will not survive. That is the reality of manufacturing in the global economy, and we must The Minister of State, Department for Education prepare our school leavers to join it if they are to (Mr Nick Gibb): I congratulate my hon. Friend the compete—and succeed—in the years ahead. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing this debate. Both he and my hon. Friend the Member for The JCB academy is delivering its curriculum in Reading East (Mr Wilson) are well-informed and passionate partnership with a range of national and local employers. promoters of education in their constituencies and For instance, Rolls-Royce has set students the challenge throughout the country. I also listened intently to the of designing and manufacturing a small piston pump. intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester This involves designing and manufacturing a specific and Strood (Mark Reckless), in which he extolled the rig, modelling in 3D animation software, producing importance of university technical colleges. drawings and then visiting the factory to see how the real ones are made. The whole project has allowed UTCs are an innovative and important part of our pupils to see their work from initiation to design and school reforms. Through new academies for 14 to 19-year- then on to delivery, with Rolls-Royce engineering apprentices olds, we are for the first time providing opportunities helping pupils throughout. Senior Rolls-Royce staff for school pupils to develop the technical knowledge presented to the pupils how a jet engine works and the and expertise that employers demand and our economy realities of planning in local and international businesses. needs. UTCs offer pupils high-quality technical and The benefits to pupils are clear: they get top-quality vocational education and clear progression routes at technical education. The benefits for Rolls-Royce are 19 into either higher or further education, or work or also undeniable. It gets the continuing professional apprenticeships. development of engineers, graduates and apprentices; As Members will know, UTCs sit alongside free an increased pupil awareness of Rolls-Royce as an schools and academies at the heart of our ambitious employer; and a role in helping to shape education in reform of the school system. They aim to drive up the region. This is leading the way in how employers are educational attainment for all pupils and students, regardless now getting involved in UTCs up and down the country. 1065 University Technical Colleges2 NOVEMBER 2011 University Technical Colleges 1066

The second UTC that opened earlier this term is now universities are joining companies such as Rolls-Royce, providing similar opportunities for its pupils in one of Procter & Gamble and BlackBerry, and outstanding the most deprived areas of the black country. There, the colleges and academies. The first of these new UTCs partnership between Siemens, Walsall college and the will open at the start of the next academic year and the university of Wolverhampton is reinvigorating the black rest will open the following year. country’s engineering heritage. It is, of course, early My hon. Friends and other hon. Members will be days, with one school open for just half a term and one aware of the huge interest in one of these new UTCs in open for just a year and a half, but already we are particular—the Silverstone academy. It will be based beginning to see the effect of the approach, and it is within the grounds of the 800 acres of the Silverstone impressive. The JCB academy reports exemplary behaviour circuit, it will cater for 540 pupils when at full capacity and attendance, as pupils are engaged in their lessons. and it will specialise principally in high-performance That positive impact is found not just in the technical engineering and motorsport. It is sponsored by Tresham subjects, as standards of English and maths look to be college of further and higher education, the university on the rise as well. We look forward to hearing their of Northampton and Silverstone Circuits Ltd, and it is results next summer. due to open in September 2013. It will be a unique On 10 October, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of establishment that will allow students to work alongside State announced the next wave of UTCs due to open in nationally and internationally renowned engineering 2012 and 2013 across the country. Between them, they businesses already located at the circuit. It will provide will provide a new generation of school leavers with the opportunities for students to access work experience technical expertise that industry demands. More than and to progress on to a wide and diverse range of job 130 major national and local employers were involved opportunities or further and higher education. The in developing these successful projects—that is a truly UTC expects significant demand from pupils; indeed, it immense contribution from industry in our education has already received inquiries and that is before— system. These UTCs will join the two that are already open and three projects in Hackney, Aston and Greenwich 7.43 pm that were previously approved. The new projects ensure House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order there will now be UTCs in every region. Russell group No. 9(7)).

265WH 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 266WH

episode of politicians for hire. A group of distinguished Westminster Hall politicians with great reputations were shown on television putting their integrity and reputation up for sale for a Wednesday 2 November 2011 certain amount of money. Potentially, that episode was a greater scandal than the expenses one, but as far as I can see, we are making virtually no progress on improving [JOHN ROBERTSON in the Chair] that situation. Parliamentary Lobbying Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing such an important Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting debate. The definition of lobbying is difficult to grapple be now adjourned.—(Jeremy Wright.) with when drafting legislation. Where would he place trade unions? Does he consider them lobbyists? 9.30 am Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Thank you for Paul Flynn: The answer is yes. Trade unions are calling me to speak, Mr Robertson. lobbyists, as are charities and all kinds of bodies. “It’s an issue that crosses party lines and has tainted our The main argument that was made to Labour Cabinet politics for too long...an issue that exposes the far-too-cosy Office Ministers is presumably the same one that lobbyists relationship between politics, government, business and money. are making to the present Minister. Lobbyists find it I’m talking about lobbying—and we all know how it works. The impossible to defend the existing secrecy and the fact lunches, the hospitality, the quiet word in your ear, the ex-ministers that large organisations and rich and powerful bodies and ex-advisors for hire, helping big business find the right way to can buy access to the Government—that is indefensible, get its way. In this party, we believe in competition, not cronyism. We believe in market economics, not crony capitalism. So we must and no one would pretend that it can be right. As that be the party that sorts all this out. Today it is a £2 billion industry argument does not work, they have invented a new one that has a huge presence in Parliament… I believe that secret about how reform will upset all the good people—the corporate lobbying, like the expenses scandal, goes to the heart of nice, friendly, cuddly charities and the trade unions—who why people are so fed up with politics. It arouses people’s worst will also be damaged. That was the main thrust of the fears and suspicions about how our political system works.” argument used against the previous Government to All those words were from our Prime Minister when he undermine reform. was in opposition. I am sure that the Minister will be happy to tell us The purpose of today’s debate is to ask how far we how many meetings he has had with lobbyists. How have got. How far has the Prime Minister delivered on much has he been lobbied? those promises? The political class is probably less trusted than at any time in history. After the expenses David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate scandal, the public have the right not to trust us. They the hon. Gentleman on obtaining this debate. I have will look at what we do and will almost always reach the much sympathy with what he is saying, but it is very worst conclusion on our motives. It will probably take difficult for constituency Members who are approached at least a decade for MPs and for politics to win back or lobbied by investors or unions not to be seen as being the trust and confidence that we enjoyed in the past. lobbied. Surely that is part and parcel of an MP’s job. What have the Government done in their 18 months in power? They certainly promised, in the coalition Paul Flynn: One MP who gave evidence to the Committee agreement, a compulsory register of lobbyists, but progress was taking £70,000 a year from a commercial company. has not been promising. All parties promise to end the [Interruption.] Wait a minute. His offence related to excesses of lobbyists when they are in opposition. In the fact that the commercial company had interests in government, both the Tories and Labour have bottled it. his Department. He said that jobs were going in his The reason why the previous Government did not constituency and he was doing his job as a constituency progress on instituting reforms was revealed in a frank MP. The answer the Committee members gave was that interview by a former Cabinet Office Minister, who said we all do our jobs as constituency MPs by fighting for it was because he and the Government were lobbied. We jobs in our constituency, but we do not have to take a members of the Public Administration Committee were £70,000 bung for doing so, which is what the public also lobbied, and we made the point that the people we look at. had before us, giving their excuses as to why there should be no interference and why they should carry on Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate in their own way, were professional persuaders and, in my hon. Friend on securing this debate and, as ever, I many cases, professional deceivers. They had to present am following his remarks with close interest. Is not the best case, and of course they were brilliant at doing transparency the greatest safeguard? Do we not therefore that, because they train people on how to give evidence need not only a register of lobbyists and an open record to Select Committees. of contact between the Government and lobbyists, but full disclosure on the funding of lobbyists? Thank goodness that the Public Administration Committee took a stronger line; its recommendation was that we need more safeguards to cleanse the Paul Flynn: That is exactly what we need, and it was parliamentary stable. We were short of a smoking gun the main recommendation of the Select Committee. when we made our report in January 2009, but smoking I hope that the Minister will tell us whether he has guns appeared within weeks; there was the sting involving had the same treatment as his Labour predecessor. Has the four Members of the other place and the “cash for he been approached by the lobbying organisations legislating” campaign, and the extraordinary, shaming explaining how difficult reform would be, how difficult 267WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 268WH

[Paul Flynn] Paul Flynn: Is this “Mastermind”? I really cannot account for the tens of thousands of votes I have taken it is to reach a definition of “lobbyists”, and how part in on clauses of Bills. I shall disregard the hon. reform will be so unfair to charities and trade unions? Gentleman’s intervention as worthless. Will he tell us what he has declined to tell that splendid In November last year, the Deputy Prime Minister organisation, SpinWatch, which is investigating these promised legislation in the current parliamentary Session, matters—how many times and on what dates he has which ends next spring, but that has now been delayed been lobbied, and what messages were conveyed to him? and we are likely to have no change until 2013. Let us It looks as though the lobbyists have succeeded again by look at what has been happening since then. Has there lobbying the Government to delay any activity or any been reform? Has there been a new atmosphere in the sign of reform. House? Do we treat lobbyists differently? I wrote to an hon. Member to say that I would mention him this Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): We MPs are regularly morning. I shall not mention his name or constituency, contacted by interested bodies. We do not necessarily but I spoke to him at length this morning. What he is have all the information in front of us, but we have doing might be entirely honourable—he takes an income hard-held opinions—opinions that make us, and blend of £30,000 from lobbyists—but it is not acceptable or with us, so that we form a view on what we should do in wise in the present post-scandal Parliament. I believe the House. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that a balance that suspicions will be aroused and people will say, is needed? Members have a job to do and have hard-held “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.” There may well be opinions that we wish to hold on to, but it is not wrong no fire. I am sure the man is behaving in the right way. for lobbyists to come along and give us their opinions and their information. Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): Surely in that case it is the job of constituents to vote the offending Member out. The issue is transparency. That is clear Paul Flynn: Indeed, it is not. That, of course, goes on and on the books, and everyone can make his or her as part of the system. Lobbying lubricates the parliamentary own judgment. system, and always has. We lobby and our constituents lobby; of course that goes on. We are against what the Prime Minister has called “corporate lobbying”. Those Paul Flynn: Yes, but the problem is that the public who engage in it are the people who are potentially the will, with some justification, believe the worst of us most damaging: those who are seeking contracts, but do after the expenses scandal. They had all those assurances not want to do it on the basis of open tendering, and before. The excuses will not work, and we need clarity instead want to go behind the scenes to have secret and simplicity in the way we behave. It is entirely wrong meetings with Government. Some extraordinary decisions for a Member of Parliament to be employed by a have been taken by all Governments on the award of company—£30,000 is a substantial amount, many times contracts. the minimum wage—and, having taken that money, to raise subjects on which the company concerned is We want to make sure that no Minister’s judgment campaigning, and then say, “Of course, this is about the will be distorted by the possibility of the revolving door. interests of my constituency; it approached me on It is extraordinary how, shortly after retiring, former the issue.” That is what the hon. Gentleman in question Ministers find lucrative jobs with companies that they says. I believe that the public are right to be suspicious once dealt with as Ministers. When a contract has been of us, and I refer to the words of the Prime Minister in awarded—sometimes for billions of pounds—who is to that regard. say that no one tipped anyone the wink by saying, “If you go for company A rather than B or C, we’ll make Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South sure you are looked after, and get your hacienda in Pembrokeshire) (Con): Wouldthe hon. Gentleman consider Spain. You will have a lucrative job in retirement”? it permissible to do that for nothing? There are many examples—hon. Members may be aware of them—from all Governments of the revolving door after Government, and the possibility that Government Paul Flynn: No. The position is this. Someone may influence has been used. want to lobby on a subject, but what a Member is allowed to do should be a question of their interest, The problem is not that those concerned are doing conscience, constituency and so on. If someone who is well out of their contacts, or are sullying their integrity. taking a considerable sum of money from an outside The problem is that the decisions they take in Government body appears then to be pursuing its business—what it may be corrupted by the prospect of future employment is asking for—that is extremely foolish and dangerous. I and riches. There are strong cases for believing that that have explained that at length and had a long conversation has happened, and might happen again. Unless we can with the Member in question. I believe that there is only jam the revolving door and bring reform, that will one Member in that position. continue. We cannot reform the system without transparency. When I came into Parliament 25 years ago, probably a majority of the Members in one of the parties took money from outside sources. Some were openly referred Alun Cairns: In 2006 there was a proposal to amend to as the Member for this or that company. In the the Bill that became the Companies Act 2006, which previous Parliament, one was referred to as the Member would have got a handle on how much companies spend for Boots, with some justification—there is some truth on lobbying. The hon. Gentleman voted against the in that view of things. We are Members for our amendment. Is that an inconsistency, or has he changed constituencies, and are paid handsomely for our work. his mind since then? We are paid a full-time wage. We should not have 269WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 270WH income from outside. There is a splendid book on the Guinea are very active at the moment. Should we allow subject, which I commend to hon. Members, that suggests that to continue? Should we allow this building and its that all MPs should put any income they receive above facilities, and the good will of Members to be used, in their salary into a charity fund. That would do something the way that other Parliaments have cosied up to oppressive to restore the public’s trust in us. regimes? What else has been going on? New interest in the debate has been precipitated by the Werritty scandal. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will my hon. Friend That will continue and other hon. Members might want give way? to speak about it. We have allowed honeyed words to be Paul Flynn: My hon. Friend is going to mention used, and have talked about a blurring of the ministerial Libya. code, when we know that what happened was a flagrant abuse of the code. The investigation will continue, and Robert Halfon: No, I am not. many matters arise from the Werritty scandal, which I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks and I congratulate should be of interest to us. him on securing the debate. I am a vice-chairman of the all-party group on the Kurdistan region in northern Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Is not one of the Iraq. I have been there twice, and the visits are declared ironies of the Werritty case the fact that Sir Gus O’Donnell’s in the register. They have been incredibly educational, report declared that Mr Werritty was not a lobbyist? because I wanted to visit a progressive, Muslim and democratic nation that follows the rule of law. Surely Paul Flynn: Indeed. I read it with some interest. my visits were a good thing? Yesterday, three very senior figures, including past Cabinet Secretaries, came before the Public Administration Paul Flynn: My comrade Robert—as I call him—and Committee to discuss the matter. I was very concerned I serve together on the Public Administration Committee, about what has happened. We know that in this case it and we have many common causes. I would not suggest seemed that a secret foreign policy was being created. that there was anything untoward in what he does, and I Money was coming in from organisations that many of am sure that he does not receive an income from the us would regard as having extreme aims, to subvert Government of that country. However, other MPs do, Government policy.Where commercial firms were involved, directly or indirectly, from some regimes. Money is were they there to buy influence, or to influence contracts? being paid—it is all there. It is a question about the way Anything on those lines is entirely wrong, and if those in which we are going. contacts were made, they should have been made publicly I want to pay tribute to Tamasin Cave of SpinWatch and declared. They were not. We will have to learn the and the other organisations that have persisted in their lesson there. support for the Select Committee’s recommendations Even on smaller matters, can we trust the Government, about what all Governments are doing. We must ask who last year altered the ministerial code so that all ourselves: are the Government serious about the matter? meetings with lobbyists should be declared by Ministers, Are we making any progress in rebuilding our reputations? when this week we learn that one Secretary of State Are we quelling what the Prime Minister called the enjoyed a five-star dinner at the Savoy, held by a major public’s “worst fears and suspicions”? We have to be lobbying firm, and that among the other guests was a concerned about those fears and suspicions. The perception company that was lobbying his Department? Instead of of how this place behaves is crucial. transparency and openness, we have the Secretary of State defending himself and saying that on that day he Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I was eating privately, not ministerially. [Interruption.] congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Indeed, he is eating very well, and his eating habits are a He has outlined the need for people to know about matter of some interest to the House, and parliamentary Members being approached and lobbied. Would it not sketch writers. However, that is a small example, although be helpful if all Members did what some Members not of enormous significance: it is a sign of the lack of already do—I have done this in my constituency—which any conviction in government about instituting genuine is to make it clear to the public and our constituents reform. when we are lobbied and when we have refused to be a victim of a lobbying group, so that other lobbyists get John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): On the case that my the message that there is no point in lobbying MP X hon. Friend cites, is he aware that that Minister was because he or she has made it abundantly clear in the performing a quasi-judicial role, and that if a judge had local press that he or she will not be lobbied, receive had such a dinner, people would have gone to prison for favours or be fêted? That would help address the issue contempt of court? of perception that the hon. Gentleman is talking about. Paul Flynn: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. Paul Flynn: My hon. Friend is entirely right. We That is precisely what we should do. We must take a cannot deal in excuses and half truths any more, because puritanical line with ourselves to ensure that the public of the position we are in. If there is a rule—and the believe us. When the public read about what is going on Government created that rule, for goodness’ sake—let and see the drip, drip of stories about links between Ministers abide by it and not make silly excuses. MPs and others, they will assume that we are all in the Advocates and paid representatives of some of the business of being influenced by outside sources. worst and most oppressive regimes in the world use this building and this House, to invite MPs—sometimes Simon Hart: I have spent the past 18 months encouraging naive MPs—to visit their countries, to try to win their constituents to lobby me, either as individuals or in support. Among such countries, Azerbaijan and Equatorial groups. We have to be careful that we do not say, 271WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 272WH

[Simon Hart] relations sector. I hosted a reception for B&Q the other day in Parliament and many Members turned up, and I “A plague on all your houses”. Some constituency dealt with a public affairs company hired by B&Q for lobbying is extremely valuable, informative and educational, that purpose. There is absolutely nothing wrong with and we should encourage it. that—it wanted to get the message to parliamentarians about its excellent community work. What is wrong Paul Flynn: I am grateful to hear from a former with that? lobbyist. I believe that the hon. Gentleman’s previous career was lobbying for the abuse of small, loveable Paul Flynn: What is wrong with it is the incestuous animals for fun—that was his message. I am sure that he relationship between Parliament and the lobbying world. would have found a welcome in the current Government Many Members, particularly new ones, used to be if he was still lobbying for animal abuse, which is what lobbyists—there is a bigger number than ever before—and he believes in and is his passion. many MPs hope to become lobbyists when they retire. Simon Hart: If I may correct the hon. Gentleman, I I have been speaking for a long time, so I will make recall that he was rather supportive of a donation of £1 my final point. Our great problem is that the tentacles million to the Labour party by the Political Animal of lobbying are sunk deep into the body politic, and it is Lobby, which he supported hugely, in the 1990s. very difficult to remove them. Two Governments have so far failed to do so, in spite of the Select Committee’s Paul Flynn: I certainly supported all animal welfare urgings. Of course there can be excuses and explanations, groups for many years in my political capacity, which is saying that there is nothing sinister about the issue, but what my constituents want. I return to one of my previous points, which is that we must restore our reputation with the public. Kwasi Kwarteng: They were lobbyists. Our reputation is in a terrible state after the expenses Paul Flynn: Indeed— scandal. The public have a right to be suspicious of us and to disbelieve our excuses. If we give them a chance Kwasi Kwarteng: And they gave you money. to say, “This action by an MP could be misinterpreted,” Paul Flynn: No, they certainly did not give me money. as in the case of the Member who was receiving income I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that. from a lobbyist, we should have a code of conduct that will remove any doubt. A person cannot eat privately Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): My hon. one day and ministerially the other. He or she cannot Friend said a moment ago that we should be much blur the differences by ignoring the fact that someone more puritanical. I think that I am a Labour Cavalier who is giving advice and is present in a meeting is taking rather than a Puritan, but we should have all sorts in income from undeclared outside sources. That cannot our party. be allowed—we cannot go on like that. We cannot have My hon. Friend and I served on the Council of groups in this building taking money from oppressive Europe for some years. I was astonished at the delegates regimes without its being clear what their programme is. bringing girlfriends, wives, staff and children, all at the The Prime Minister, when he was in opposition, stated same time, filling up the Members’ room and using clearly in splendid words that lobbying would be the expenses to put them up in nice hotels. Does he think major scandal of the future unless we have clear and that we should stop all that, and that Members should simple root-and-branch reforms now that make no go on any such delegation visits by themselves? compromises and leave no loopholes. That is what is called for and it is also our purpose. Paul Flynn: The situation is quite clear. If that happens, I shall end now, Mr Robertson—it is a pleasure to anyone who goes out, including staff, should not add serve under your chairmanship—as I understand that any cost to the public purse. If my right hon. Friend many Members wish to speak so that we can use the would like to investigate the case, he would find that opportunity to ask the Government what they have even dinners at an embassy are now paid for at a rate of done to honour the Prime Minister’s fine promise and ¤30 for any guests. when reforms will be introduced to ensure that we have Transparency about those who are getting through to a transparent system with a compulsory register. the Government at the moment arose when the issue about good, selfish and commercial causes was raised Several hon. Members rose— again. According to a report in The Guardian, there have been 10 times as many meetings between the Government and corporate lobbyists as there have been John Robertson (in the Chair): Order. Before we go with trade unionists. There have been four times as any further, let me say that a number of people wish to many meetings of corporate lobbyists with the Government speak in this debate. Those on the Front Bench will have as there have been with charities. Already, a process is 10 minutes each, so there is 40 minutes between the rest going on secretly behind closed doors. The loud and of you. I would be most grateful if you all looked at insistent voices come from those who can afford to buy timing your speeches. expensive lobbyists and access to Government. 9.59 am Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern for transparency, and I am sure Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South that a number of the cases to which he has alluded are Pembrokeshire) (Con): I will start by declaring an interest: regrettable or wrong. However, we must not besmirch I am a former lobbyist and an unpaid board member of the names of many people who work in the public a group which spends part of its time lobbying this affairs sector. I used to work in the related public place and other places. 273WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 274WH

I congratulate the hon. Member for Newport West The hon. Member for Newport West has mentioned (Paul Flynn) on securing this debate. I hope that I definitions. With the greatest respect to him, he over- encourage him when I say that I sympathise with much—but simplified the situation. There are many worthy charities not all—of what he has said. representing large numbers of people—in some cases, The Government’s progress in their first 18 months of they represent smaller numbers of people—that fall office is rather more promising than that which their into the lobby category. We must all ensure that we do predecessors achieved in 13 years. The coalition agreement nothing to interrupt the ability of the charitable sector strikes the right balance between encouraging lobbying to lobby us hard. If we do not permit or encourage that, and ensuring transparency. People should know what we will create a worse situation as far as public confidence we are up to over and above what they can obtain from is concerned. the register and under the Freedom of Information Act. None the less, we must be cautious about some of the Robert Halfon: I note what my hon. Friend has said unintended consequences. I do not want to over-simplify about lobbying by charities. Although many charities things because, as I have said, I am on the same page as do a remarkable job, does he not agree that charities the hon. Gentleman in so many ways. The solution is would be better off focusing on their charitable works? not only the register but the codes of practice and the In 2009, Oxfam reportedly got 25% of its funding from professional standards that underpin the register. As a the state, but then spent £25 million on what was former lobbyist, I attach the greatest importance to described as “helping people to lobby Government”. those matters. Surely, most of Oxfam’s excellent work should be primarily focused on the front line. As a Government and a party, we promote and champion self-regulation over statutory regulation. Having Simon Hart: I agree with my hon. Friend up to a dealt with a number of regulators in my previous life, I point. One purpose of the charities, however, is to have some experience of such matters. My experience of persuade Government and political parties to recognise the Advertising Standards Authority as a regulator was the needs of their charitable members and to legislate—or pretty good. The organisation had teeth, it did things not legislate—accordingly, so it is a perfectly legitimate and it applied standards with which the lobby industry activity. Age Concern, for example, does very good was entirely comfortable. My experience with other work in informing and persuading us. organisations, such as the Market Research Society, was less than satisfactory. When trying to table a complaint Mr Andrew Smith: On charities, what aspect of against an individual member of the MRS, we found registration, transparency and financial disclosure does that the president of the MRS was the very same person the hon. Gentleman fear might impede their legitimate against whom we were lodging the complaint. I am activity? talking about not just blurred lines, but real confusion, and I had a similar view of the Press Complaints Simon Hart: There is absolutely no problem with Commission. I am probably one of the few Members in transparency. I was also involved in setting up a rural this Chamber who took Piers Morgan to the PCC when charity, so I do not have a problem with that in any he was editor of The Daily Mirror. I was astonished by respect. Bureaucratic red tape or cost impacts that the complete contempt that he showed for that body—it cannot be justified would be a problem. There are was as if it was not there. He did not give a damn. At people who make legitimate donations to charities because that particular moment, it was, as far as he was concerned, of the good work that those charities do. They like to a toothless organisation. do so in private, and they would be less inclined to donate if they thought that their donations were going Chris Bryant: It still is. to be seen by all and sundry. To want to contribute to a charity in private is a perfectly reasonable thing. We need to be a wee bit careful in exposing all donors to all Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman has more recent charities, because that might have a detrimental effect experience of the organisation than me. on charities that rely on people who like to do such things under the radar. I am not saying that there is not a solution, but a balance needs to be struck. Mr MacShane: The Leveson inquiry is investigating this matter. There is the huge question whether there needs to be a fully independent, backed-under-law body John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): I agree to which the public can go with press complaints. We with a lot of what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but have already debated that at length in the House, but much of the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for will the hon. Gentleman, as a Conservative, support Newport West (Paul Flynn) dealt with direct payments something much stronger—if not statutory—than the to people who are elected. For example, if a company PCC to which the public can go with complaints about pays a councillor, it is regarded as a bribe and it is appalling press behaviour? illegal, but similar payments to an MP are perfectly legal. Is that not the kind of contradiction to which my hon. Friend was pointing? Simon Hart: I suspect Mr Robertson may get at us if we drift off lobby groups too obviously. All I will say is Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable that there is a huge difference between a trade organisation point. However, I am not as convinced as others that and a regulator, and confusion arises when people try to simply because somebody undertakes, in a way that is be both. Any measure that separates the role of a trade perfectly above board, a piece of work on behalf of a representative and a regulator has to be something that charity that it necessarily constitutes deceit in the eyes we view positively. of the general public. There are plenty of Members of 275WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 276WH

[Simon Hart] My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) has used the term “incestuous”. I think that a Parliament and elected members of other devolved better term to use is “interchangeable”, because we are institutions who have done their job with great distinction becoming a Parliament of paid, professional lobbyists. and worked on behalf of a charity that backs a cause The reason is that the political class, the advisers and that they were particularly aligned to, and they have not the researchers are entirely interchangeable with the suffered at the ballot box as a result. What they have lobby industry—they are literally interchangeable. People done has been open and accountable. We must take care spend a couple of years as an adviser, then a couple of not to assume that all those things are always seen as years as a lobbyist, then they go back to being an negative, because they are not and in some cases they adviser, then they go back to being a lobbyist and then can be seen as positive. As my hon. Friend the Member they go into Parliament as an MP. That is the way into for Harlow (Robert Halfon) has said, as long as the this place, although I will not embarrass the dozens and information is out there, it is up to the electorate, who I dozens and dozens of colleagues who have entered the guess we all trust, to make a judgment. In many cases, House in that way. that judgment has been made positively in respect of Members who have done it. I simply put the argument Kwasi Kwarteng: What does the hon. Gentleman as it is without necessarily having a solution to it. propose as a measure to stop that career development, There are very good reasons for encouraging constituents, because it is clear that many of our colleagues have singly, in small groups or as official delegations, to followed the path that he has just described? Is he going lobby Members of Parliament on behalf of causes or to introduce legislation to stop that? concerns in the constituency. I would hate to see us introduce any measure that made it more difficult for John Mann: The hon. Gentleman will want to listen our constituents to do that. The hon. Member for to my speech. He may have a “career” in this House, but Newport West has goaded me on the animal welfare I have a vocation here, attempting to represent the arguments. Of course, there are some fantastic charities, interests of my constituents. That seems to me what such as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, being a Member of Parliament should be about. that represent many millions of members and that can organise themselves on a constituency basis and lobby Let me give an illustration of this interchangeability, for a particular cause in that area. Good luck to them, or “incestuous relationship”, as my hon. Friend the because that is what they are there for, that is what we Member for Newport West has described it. We will go pay our membership for and that is what they should be to the top and start with the Prime Minister, because of encouraged to do. As I have said, we need to be careful course the founder of Shandwick lobbyists was Lord about an unintended consequence that would actually Chadlington. Lord Chadlington was the Prime Minister’s put off all those people, make their access to us more patron to get his parliamentary seat in Witney and, as difficult and make all the more awkward their ability to was reported in The Sunday Times in 2007, he offered persuade, inform and educate us. We should not be the Prime Minister his little farm and pool, in which the involved in anything that suggests that. Prime Minister’s family were invited to swim. Actually, he did a lot more than that, because the little farm is the On donations, we must be—as ever—extremely sensitive, same building that he gave the Prime Minister and that for all the reasons that the hon. Member for Newport the Prime Minister used for the first six months that he West has mentioned; I agree with him about that. was a Member of Parliament. And Lord Chadlington is However, that is not to say that all donations should a man who formed a lobbying company, which was always be made public, come what may, for the reasons eventually sold on to Huntsman—sorry, Huntsworth of charitable good will that I mentioned earlier. lobbyists. People can see that Huntsworth does not To be frank, if we end this process of trying to make lobby me that often. [Laughter.] lobbying more open, accountable and transparent, which is a process I support, by coming up with a system that Huntsworth has its tentacles across the world. One of is more toothless, more pointless and more expensive its subsidiaries is called Quiller. The Minister will be than the current one, rather than contributing to the smiling, because Quiller employs lots of people from restoration of public confidence in and enthusiasm for lots of different political parties, including advisers. I MPs and our political institutions, we will have the have never heard of it myself, but apparently two of opposite effect. For that reason, I hope that we treat this them were advisers to the Labour party; they were a matter with considerable caution. Mr Smith and a Mr Slinger. I never came across them myself. There were also a Mr Alistair Murray, who 10.10 am advised the Liberal Democrat party, and a Mr Parkinson, John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I listened with some a Ms Roycroft and a Mr Malcolm Morton, who were amazement to the hon. Member for Carmarthen West all aides to Conservative MPs. Indeed, the Minister will and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) saying that we know Mr Malcolm Morton, because he was an adviser should be careful, because people will be put off lobbying. to the Minister. Saying that is not to criticise either I assure him that the people of Bassetlaw do not require the Minister or Mr Morton, but it demonstrates the paid advisers to lobby their MP eloquently and effectively. interchangeability between the political world and the We have a word for it—democracy. My problem and my lobbying world. That preferential access is gained by constituents’ problem is that access to MPs, and therefore personal contacts, which is what is fundamentally wrong access for my constituents, is squeezed and blocked by with the current situation. the number of paid lobbyists representing interests, gaining access preferentially and using their contacts, Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): which stops the rest of us getting the access to the Would my hon. Friend also include those people who Government that we should be getting. have worked for trade unions in this sphere, for example 277WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 278WH people who have been the head of education and research from working for a lobbying company? It is a free for their union or people who were trade union liaison world. However, there needs to be a recording of all officers? ministerial meetings, and all MPs should be recording what lobbyists are attempting to do if they are successful John Mann: No, I would not—[Laughter.] in influencing them. Also, there should be a full ban on paid professional lobbyists having passes in order to John Robertson (in the Chair): Order. access this place.

John Mann: I would not include them, in the same 10.18 am way that I would not include small business owners in the same category. The issue is this—what access is Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): It is a pleasure to gained to Parliament? serve under you today, Mr Robertson. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Flynn)— Harper): Double standards. Paul Flynn: Comrade. John Mann: The Minister says “double standards”. That is what the Government are attempting to do; they Robert Halfon: I congratulate my honourable comrade are attempting to distract us from this issue, because of on the Public Administration Committee on his remarks the Werrity scandal, and make us look at another issue. today. Underneath all the rhetoric from all parties, there This issue has nothing to do with “standards”; it is to is quite a lot of overlap. Although we need to be do with access. If a Minister’s researchers and advisers transparent and open, we should not necessarily see all become paid lobbyists, of course they have better contact lobbying as a sort of great conspiracy. I declare my and communication with that Minister, whether that is interests, as set out in the Register of Members’ Financial a Conservative Minister, Labour Minister or any other Interests. Minister. Of course that is the case and that is the In my view, there are three kinds of lobbying. The problem. first, which has already been described, is constituents The question, “What should be done about it?”, is writing to us or contacting us on a range of issues. The fundamental. Before I answer it, however, there is another second involves charities and pressure groups. Many of aspect that we must consider. Let us take the case of those charities have huge budgets for public relations Bell Pottinger and the Werrity scandal. In that case, the and public affairs. Many also have former special advisers question that arises is about the international role of working for them who know the Government inside-out, lobbyists, because what has not come out is information and therefore have what might be described as privileged about the role that Bell Pottinger was playing in Sri access. The third kind is the traditional lobbying being Lanka. People have been distracted from that issue, not highlighted today, which involves private firms, trade least because Lord Bell is doing quite a lot of the public unions and big public sector agencies, and the public relations to try to cover his tracks and what was going affairs firms that they hire. on, which was Bell Pottinger representing the Government I am proud that in my constituency we have a large of Sri Lanka. According to the Catholic bishop of bingo club with 40,000 members, and I was only too Mannar, under that Government 146,000 people have pleased when, a couple of weeks ago, the Bingo Association disappeared without trace, including many members of came to lobby me about various taxation issues. I his congregation, and Bell Pottinger is there in Sri cannot see anything wrong with that; it is a good thing, Lanka representing the interests of that Government. because I want to support my incredibly popular bingo That is why transparency is important, and that is why club. We should not condemn all lobbying as sinister we need to know if Ministers are having meetings with and retrograde, because some of it can be used to the Sri Lankan Government that were set up by Mr inform us. Tonight, I have an Adjournment debate on Werrity or indeed by anyone else. What is going on? Bell university technical colleges, and e-mails and letters Pottinger is being paid to facilitate such things on that I have received from all kinds of interest groups behalf of the Government of Sri Lanka. have helped me to prepare for it. I will conclude now because other Members wish to speak, but what we need are the following principles, Paul Flynn: It should be clear to my hon. Friend that which I will put to the Minister. The first principle is that is not part of our concern. I have tweeted him transparency. There must be absolute transparency in about his 40,000 bingo club members, and commiserated all the meetings that we have as politicians, and there is with him on the fact that such is his constituents’ not. The lack of transparency is the fundamental weakness despair over the future of the economy that they have that exists, with people claiming that “private engagements” all resorted to gambling. have happened. There should be no such thing as a “private engagement” for a Minister, and there should Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend’s wit has no bounds, be very little of it for an MP.There should be transparency. which is why I enjoy sitting on the Select Committee Secondly, where money and profit are involved, with him so often. transparency is all the more urgently required and should I support groups and websites such as SpinWatch, be all the more available, because of the paying for the Alliance for Lobbying Transparency, the Sunlight access scandals that have bedevilled politics in this Centre and Guido Fawkes, because the more openness country. and transparency the better, but this will be incredibly The third principle relates to preferential access. There difficult. Let us say that there is a lobby company needs to be action on preferential access. How do we do called Westminster Communications—I do not know if that, because someone cannot stop their researcher there is—[Interruption.] There is. Okay, let us call it 279WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 280WH

[Robert Halfon] The hon. Gentleman would not criticise a lawyer who had spent all his life learning law before becoming a Westminster X. If we say that that company has to judge. lobby, there is nothing to prevent it rebranding itself as Widget Strategies Ltd and describing itself as a management John Mann: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The concept, consultancy, as opposed to a political one. How do we and the word, is not “condemned”; it is about pointing then register all the businesses that come to see us? Do to the danger of interchangeability. It is not about we have a blanket diary entry and register everything? It condemning individuals for what they do. is not as easy as it looks. The case of Adam Werritty has been briefly mentioned. Robert Halfon: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I do not think that that was a lobbying scandal; it was to the answer is that there must be openness and transparency, do with the relationship between special advisers and but it is not so terrible if a businessman hires someone Ministers. Sometimes the boundaries of special advisers who has worked in Government or for the Opposition are unclear. Under the previous Government there was because they understand what has been going on. Lord Levy and Alastair Campbell, who became a semi-civil We must be more careful and much tougher with servant. There is a lot of confusion, and that is why the quangos—paid for by the taxpayer—that hire paid Adam Werritty thing needed to happen. The Government lobbyists to lobby the taxpayer for more money. Figures need to make the role of special advisers much clearer, show that the Ordnance Survey and the Audit Commission including how many there should be and what their spent more than £600,000 on lobbyists in 2009. duties are. Transparency and openness are key; all the problems I agree 100% with my hon. Friend the Member for will go away if everyone is clear about what is happening, Newport West—he is almost my hon. Friend—about and about which lobby groups are lobbying which Ministers the issue of revolving doors, or Ministers leaving Whitehall and MPs, but there will be a difficulty with the definition. and getting jobs. We had an interesting Select Committee sitting with Ian Lang, whose committee—the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments—seems not to 10.27 am keep records of individuals whom it has advised not to Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I warmly congratulate take up Government jobs, or of individuals who have the comrades, my hon. Friend the Member for Newport taken up jobs after leaving Government. West (Paul Flynn), and the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). It is an unusual alliance; perhaps they Mr MacShane: Will the hon. Gentleman accept from met around the sides of politics, from the ends of the me that it is not so much ex-Ministers who get these Back Benches. I completely agree about transparency; it jobs, but senior civil servants, who award massive contracts is key. Several Members have referred to the fact that in their Departments and very shortly afterwards go to the Secretary of State for Communities and Local sit on the boards of some of the companies involved? Government has said that he was eating in a private capacity, not a ministerial one. I suspect that he might, Robert Halfon: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. on occasion, have eaten in both capacities on the same There are scandalous cases of senior civil servants evening and that, like a cow, he has more than one walking out of one door and in through another. I find stomach, and is therefore able to ruminate on behalf of it particularly outrageous that the Government spend several people. millions of pounds hiring head-hunters and recruitment consultants, yet some of those recruitment consultants Robert Halfon: On a point of order, Mr Robertson. have former senior civil servants on board who worked That seems to be a case of fatism. Is that not inappropriate? in the human resources department and—surprise, surprise—the job is given to that head-hunting agency. John Robertson (in the Chair): That is not a point of There is no difference between head-hunting agencies order. raking it in from the taxpayer, and being hired by the Government to carry out some of the activities that my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West described. Chris Bryant: We need to remember that, in essence, we politicians are all lobbyists. We go through lobbies I regret that the previous Government did not do and try to advocate causes, and nearly every one of more. I was not around at the time, but a report by the us—if not all of us—was in one shape or form a Public Administration Committee urged the Government lobbyist before we came into Parliament. For example, to compile a register on lobbying. However, the Government my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) never failed to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. campaigned for workers’ rights when he was working It is rich of many Opposition Members to start to have for a trade union; I, as a vicar, argued that my local a go at the Government now, when they had so many authority was not doing the right thing by local youth years to get this right and did nothing. services; others have campaigned for better policing, I welcome the Prime Minister’s confirmation that he and so on. We are by nature lobbyists—advocates—trying will go further and bring in a proper register of lobbyists, to persuade people of a better cause. For a couple of including of organisations such as think-tanks and years I was a paid lobbyist for the BBC, doing its trade unions, which are politically active and part of the lobbying in Brussels. I am proud of that work, because lobbying landscape. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw at the time Rupert Murdoch was saying that the BBC (John Mann) condemned people who work as special licence fee was illegal state aid, and that the BBC should advisers and then become MPs. I was one of those be closed down. I am delighted that we won that battle dreaded people. My work as a political consultant and in Brussels, and I believe that it is perfectly possible to as a special adviser helped to prepare me for Parliament. be an entirely honourable lobbyist. 281WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 282WH

I remember when the Mental Health Bill was going many elements of its work are determined by legislation. through the House in 2007. As a Back-Bench member We must take special care to ensure a level playing field of the Bill Committee, I knew remarkably little about for everybody. mental health and the specifics of legislation. If it had There are enormous problems, many of which have not been for a wide range of people who lobbied me and been referred to, including corrupt lobbying: offers of argued about elements of the Bill, I would not have financial inducements, nice holidays, easy trips and so been able to make as effective a contribution. In the on. Some methods are directly corrupt and illegal, and end, I tabled the amendment that became the following the House should deal ferociously with Members who provision in the Act: abuse in that direction. Sometimes Members would be “In this Act, references to appropriate medical treatment, in best advised not to go to the meal or engage. The rules relation to a person suffering from mental disorder, are references applying to this House are much stronger than those to medical treatment which is appropriate in his case, taking into that apply to the other House. If one wanted to engage account the nature and degree of the mental disorder and all in dodgy lobbying, one would be far better advised to other circumstances of his case.” do so through the House of Lords—the House of To the ordinary eye—and, I suggest, to most MPs, patronage—rather than through the House of Commons. unless they have a background in mental health—that That is another reason why I support reforming the seems a perfectly innocuous statement of what should House of Lords to make it an elected second Chamber. be the case, but every single word of that provision was fiercely battled over, and rightly so, because of its effect Another way in which it is probably much easier to on people who might be sectioned. It was not just do a dodgy deal is with civil servants rather than elected mental health charities such as Mind and others that Members. There is far less openness; often even the lobbied and provided advice; it was also pharmaceutical names of people who make important decisions on companies. If there is a list of evil people in the country, tenders are not known to the public. Some countries it starts with journalists, then politicians, and then have purposely selected individual Members of both lobbyists, and way at the far end are lobbyists for Houses as being more pliable and biddable than others, pharmaceutical companies, but my experience in that and have enabled long-term relationships with them. situation was that they provided invaluable advice. In Those relationships need close scrutiny. the end, it was for me to decide the rights and wrongs What counts as a lobbyist is also a problem. I do not and how I could best serve my constituents, but if mean to say that we should not have a register; it is one people had not had such access to me, it would have reason why we should. The Prime Minister was a lobbyist been impossible for me to do a proper job. before he came into Parliament, and most journalists advocate most of the time in one way or another, Paul Flynn: The main opposition to any reform comes especially those with opinion columns. When my from those who wish to muddy the issue and suggest constituents set up an organisation to oppose the closure that we wish to hamstring some worthy body. The of the Treherbert baths or protect the minor injuries Prime Minister has given the definition of “secret corporate unit at Llwynypia, they are lobbyists. My hon. Friend lobbying”; we should realise that that is the subject of the Member for Bassetlaw is absolutely right. If their this debate and the area in which reforms are long space to lobby me were crowded out, I would be failing overdue. utterly in my job. Every single diplomat who works for the Foreign Office is also, in essence, a lobbyist. I often Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend misunderstands me, I feel that they are sent abroad to eat for their country. It suspect. I do not seek to muddy reform; I want reform. I is important to recognise the advocacy role of what we want a register, and I will suggest a couple of other do. things as well, but I think that we must be absolutely The first key thing is that there should be no paid honest, and part of that involves honesty about the advocacy. That is a rule of this House, but it is more important role that good lobbying can play in the honoured in the breach than in the observance. We need political process, particularly for Opposition Members. absolute transparency about funding and who is engaged Ministers have a host of civil servants who can produce in lobbying, and particularly about who meets any briefings and so on; Opposition Members simply do Minister or civil servant engaged in making key decisions. not have access to that much support. Often it is provided by organisations. If at any point a Member succumbs so Thomas Docherty: On the point about influence, does completely to the blandishments of some organisation my hon. Friend think that that should apply to Select that they effectively become its subsidiary, they stop Committee Chairmen, who have a lot of influence over being a good parliamentary Member and constituency policy? representative. That is the line that I want to draw. We should also bear in mind that lobbying is a British Chris Bryant: That is a good point. Members of tradition. It is because there was a lobby outside St Select Committees that publish influential reports are Stephen’s chapel that the whole system arose. I remember often targeted by lobbying organisations. It would be clearly that when Paris lost its bid for the 2012 Olympics, no bad thing if each Select Committee had an open Delanoë complained that the British had engaged in register of lobbying meetings held. lobbying. I saw all too often in Brussels that although Passes to this place are a problem. When I worked in Britain was good at advocating its case, other countries Brussels, getting a pass to enter the European Parliament were not, because they simply did not understand how on legitimate business was a simple, straightforward to go about it properly. and open process. Here, it is clandestine. Lots of people Some industries are particularly lobbyacious—and, end up finding an hon. Member who is prepared to Hansard reporters, that is a word, because I have created give them one of their three passes. We should have it. Broadcasting is particularly lobbyacious, because so a complete review of the system. Of course we must 283WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 284WH

[Chris Bryant] issues have been raised. Among the many important issues raised by the hon. Member for Carmarthen West ensure security in this building, but everybody should and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) was that of have equal access. I would prefer to open the doors than unintended consequences. My hon. Friend the Member keep them closed so that only some people have enhanced for Bassetlaw (John Mann) stressed the importance access. Nobody should have enhanced access due to big of the principle of transparency. The hon. Member for bucks or cronyism. That last element is difficult to Harlow (Robert Halfon) made the point that there is a control. I look forward to legislation introducing a great deal of common ground between politicians in the register soon. I am not naive about the difficulties of House, and I shall revert to that. My hon. Friend the determining what a lobbyist is, but it is essential that we Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) pointed out that clean up the industry. lobbyists fulfil a useful role and that it is the question of regulation that concerns us. I also thank him for introducing John Robertson (in the Chair): I said that I would call us to a word with which I was not familiar—“lobbyacious.” the Front-Bench spokesmen at 20 minutes to 11, but I Finally, we heard, briefly but pithily, from the hon. will give a few minutes to another speaker, as that is Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), only fair. who underlined the complexity of the subject and warned us to be careful not to introduce unintended consequences. 10.39 am I hope that Members agree that we should all do our best to establish a genuine consensus in the House on George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I how best to register lobbying activity. It is well worth will be as brief as possible. remembering that how best to regulate lobbyists featured I worked in the public affairs industry for a year in in the manifestos of all three main British political 2009, but for a company signed up to the Association of parties during the general election campaign. The Labour Professional Political Consultants, which adheres strongly party stated: to transparency. There is a danger of exaggerating such “We will create a Statutory Register of Lobbyists to ensure people’s influence. Hon. Members returning after this complete transparency in their activities.” debate should look in their recycling bins to see how much power the people that we are fretting about The Liberal Democrat manifesto stated that the improper actually have. The truth is that we are inundated with influence of lobbyists should be curbed by lobbying all the time, and we throw away most of it. At “introducing a statutory register of lobbyists”. the end of the day, it is down to our judgment whether Indeed, the Conservative manifesto said: we believe these people. As MPs, we are approached by “We will regulate lobbying through introducing a statutory companies or pressure groups that often smack of register of lobbyists and ensuring greater transparency.” commercial interest and we can spot it a mile off. We might also get people who do not articulate their case The coalition agreement also has a commitment to a very well, but we are the ones who can judge that and statutory register. give them a voice when they may not have one. I hope that the Minister will indicate when the long- I agree that there is a need to improve transparency, waited consultation paper will see the light of day. I and particularly a need for a register of lobbyists. They read with interest his interview in the current House should be required to list their clients and disclose magazine, and it was rather unfair of it to refer to him whether anyone who works for them has had a previous as “Nick Clegg’s babysitter”. [HON.MEMBERS: “Aah”] Government role. However, I am nervous about going I am glad that hon. Members agree that that is a rather down the route of disclosing every meeting with people unfair description. I dare say that some would prefer to who are trying to lobby us, because it suggests that we describe the Minister as “David Cameron’s handmaiden.” base our opinions on the number of people who have In that interview, the Minister alluded to several lobbied us about something, rather than exercise judgment, other constitutional issues, which mean that the register which is what we actually do. of lobbyists has slipped from the Deputy Prime Minister’s My final concern about publishing the details of such initial target of later this year. I sincerely hope that the meetings relates to an unintended consequence whereby Minister’s work load will not prevent him from keeping people say, “You met that group, so why can’t you meet his promise of at least a consultation document in the us? You’ve met the People’s Front of Judaea, but what next few weeks. If he could provide us with a publication about the Judaean People’s Front?” It is difficult enough date today, that would be most helpful. for Ministers to balance their work load. Do we really When that consultation document is published, I want to create a situation whereby organisations start hope that there will be a widespread debate and that the to feel that they almost have an entitlement to meet Government will listen carefully to the views expressed Ministers on the basis that they have met somebody by all. else? Robert Halfon: Although the hon. Gentleman rightly John Robertson (in the Chair): I thank the hon. urges the Government to take action on this and for us Gentleman for his brevity. to fulfil our election manifesto commitment, does he not regret that his own party did not follow through the 10.41 am recommendations of the 2009 report of the Public Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): I congratulate Administration Committee? my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on securing the debate, which has been a good Mr David: If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I one. He is a doughty campaigner and several important will address that point in a moment. 285WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 286WH

It is important for the Government to learn from the 10.49 am unfortunate episodes that we have witnessed in this The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark House in recent times. I also urge them to study carefully Harper): It is a great pleasure to serve under your the experiences of other legislatures, particularly in chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Australia and Canada. There is no easy formula or Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on securing one-size-fits-all approach—nothing can be taken off the debate, which has largely been helpful and balanced. the shelf—but we can learn from what has happened in other countries. The contribution of the hon. Member for Rhondda I would like to make a few suggestions about the (Chris Bryant) was useful because it put into context principles that I believe should underpin any future the fact that lobbying can be very helpful and that it statutory register of lobbyists. Building on the cornerstone enables Members of Parliament to be better informed. of transparency, to which several Members referred, the He gave the example of the Mental Health Bill. I had Public Administration Committee stated in its 2009 the same experience in opposition, when I worked with report that information in a statutory register must many disability organisations and charities. In opposition, include some of the assistance and resources of lobbyists are needed to help the argument and ensure that legislation “the names of the individuals carrying out lobbying activity and of any organisation employing or hiring them, whether a consultancy, is framed properly and that well-informed questions law firm, corporation or campaigning organisation.” can be asked. The problem occurs when those types of Secondly, it stated that the information should include, contacts are not transparent. The right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) and my hon. Friend the “in the case of multi-client consultancies, the names of their clients.” Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) made that point. Thirdly, it recommended the inclusion of The issue is transparency. “information about any public office previously held by an individual I will say this from the start as it may pre-empt some lobbyist—essentially, excerpts from their career history.” interventions: we are committed to introducing a statutory Fourthly, the report said that there should be register. We will publish our proposals for consultation “a list of the interests of decision makers within the public service before the end of this month, and then I hope we can (Ministers, senior civil servants and senior public servants) and engage in that debate. Several hon. Members have alluded summaries of their career histories outside the public service”. to that matter. The reason we are publishing our proposals Fifthly, it stated that there should be for consultation is very simple: we want to get it right. “information about contacts between lobbyists and decision makers— We need to get the definition of who would be captured essentially, diary records and minutes of meetings. The aim would by the term lobbyist correct. We must not stifle legitimate be to cover all meetings and conversations between decision lobbying or the ability of our constituents and other makers and outside interests.” people to talk to us or Ministers, but we need to ensure Those five points are a good starting point. Some will that the relevant information is out in the open. We suggest that they do not go far enough, while othersj must deal with the issue correctly, so we will publish our will say that they go too far. They are, however, a useful proposals and have a thorough consultation on which point at which to begin our discourse. As the hon. everybody—Members and those outside—can have their Member for Harlow suggested, some may wonder why say. We can then ensure that we strike the right balance. the report was not implemented when Labour was in government. I shall pre-empt that argument by saying Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Is there not an element that, while it is true that Labour did not take up the of “There’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza” in all this? Committee’s call for a statutory register, it nevertheless As the Minister says, when the proposals are published, indicated in January 2010 that, if a voluntary system there will be consultation and debate. No doubt that proved ineffectual, it would be necessary to go further. I will involve a considerable degree of lobbying. What suggest that the time has indeed come for us to go will be his attitude to the lobbying approaches he receives further. as Minister during that consultation period? There is a danger that our approach to this admittedly complex and difficult area could end up being too Mr Harper: Let me come on to that at in a moment broad and general. We must also be mindful of unintended because I want to set out my thoughts logically. consequences, as a number of Members have said. We I thank the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) are all advocates and ambassadors for our constituents, for his relatively consensual approach because it is and many of us support a wide range of organisations important that we get dealing with the issue right. The that do not fit the widely accepted definition of a subject affects all parties, and all parties have lessons to lobbying organisation. We must be careful that we take learn. We need to ensure that we approach the issue on that into account when we define which bodies and that basis. He struck the right note, but to encourage individuals should be included in a statutory register of other Labour Members also to take such an approach, I lobbying interests. will remind them of what they did or did not do in Finally, a register of lobbyists will not wholly solve Government. An amendment tabled by the Liberal the problem of the exercise of inappropriate influence. Democrats on having more transparency on lobbying Let us not forget that the friend of the right hon. was mentioned. Every single Labour MP here who was Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), Mr Adam Werritty, in the House at the time happily voted against that. The was not a lobbyist as such. If anything, that episode hon. Member for Newport West clearly paid very little clearly demonstrates that it is necessary for us to have in attention to the new clause when he voted against it place a number of safeguards that are vigorously enforced. because if he had read it, it sounds as though he would A statutory register of lobbyists, however, would be a have agreed with most of it. vital element in ensuring that faith is restored once again in our parliamentary democracy. Chris Bryant: What was it? 287WH Parliamentary Lobbying2 NOVEMBER 2011 Parliamentary Lobbying 288WH

Mr Harper: It was new clause 76 to the Companies Mr David: I simply make the point that we have an Bill 2006, which was debated on 18 October 2006. Yes, ideal opportunity to make progress now because there the hon. Gentleman voted against it, as, indeed, did the is a genuine political consensus. I therefore urge the hon. Member for Newport West. Government to be constructive.

Mr Harper: Yes, and I am very pleased to do so. Paul Flynn: The Minister has eight minutes to build some kind of consensual approach to the subject, instead The hon. Member for Newport West also referred to of which he is involving himself in petty political point Ministers who take up roles on leaving office. My right scoring. Can he tell us how often he has been lobbied hon. Friend the Prime Minister strengthened the guidelines about the lobbying reforms since he has become a on that in the ministerial code he published last year. Minister and will he have talks with the Opposition to Ministers must seek the advice of the Advisory Committee ensure that we have a consensual approach? Such an on Business Appointments and they must abide by it. approach will possibly take us into the next Government, That was not previously the case. Ministers had to get which is when many of us think these reforms will take the advice, but they did not have to abide by it. In place. addition, for the first time, my right hon. Friend introduced a ministerial code that bans former Ministers from lobbying for two years after leaving office. So, they are Mr Harper: I would have slightly longer to respond if absolutely not allowed to go straight out of office, get a the hon. Gentleman had not interrupted me. I was job and start lobbying the Government again. That is coming on to his point and was trying to deal with the a very helpful step forward. questions he raised in his speech. On the hon. Gentleman’s comment, the Government Robert Halfon: I welcome my hon. Friend’s remarks have made a lot of progress on transparency. We publish about the advisory committee, but does he not think it all the meetings that Ministers have with external would be better if it published its recommendations for organisations. If he had troubled to look at the written everybody to see? We could then see which Ministers answers I have given—and, indeed, my meetings—he had followed the advice and who had not. would see that I have had one meeting with the independent chairman of the UK Public Affairs Council on the Mr Harper: I listened very carefully to what my hon. subject. I have had no meetings to discuss the issue with Friend said about the inquiry that the Public Administration lobbying companies and no meetings with anti-lobbying Committee is undertaking at the moment and the evidence companies either. We will publish a comprehensive it has heard. Clearly, when it publishes its report, the consultation, so that everybody can have their say. Government will look very carefully at its recommendations and respond in due course. I look forward to the That information on meetings has been published. If Committee’s report. the hon. Gentleman had looked for it before the debate, he would have seen it. The details are available on Thomas Docherty: The Minister referred to the website data.gov.uk for the benefit of hon. Members. We also data.gov.uk. I have just had a chance to go on that publish hospitality and gifts received by Ministers and website and can see that the Cabinet Office information special advisers, details of Ministers’ overseas visits, has not been updated since December 2010. Does he details of permanent secretaries’ meetings and Government think that that is transparent? procurement information so that we can see what the Government are spending and lots of other information. Mr Harper: My understanding is that all the meetings The meetings that Ministers in the Department for up to the end of April this year have been published. Education hold are a very good example of departmental However, I will check up on the matter. It was my meetings. The sorts of people to whom they talk are not understanding because that information has been provided. surprising. The most frequent meetings are with the On the point the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Mann) made, even some of his colleagues—I will not Barnado’s and the National Children’s Bureau. Those embarrass them by pointing them out—thought that are the sorts of people one would expect Ministers in his line about trade unions not being encompassed by that Department to meet, so that they can talk about the transparency rules is unsustainable. Given the fact serious and important issues. Transparency is very welcome. that the party he represents gets 85% of its donations The previous Government did not make progress on from trade unions and a quarter of its donations from a the matter. Just before the election, they committed to a single trade union, I am afraid that his argument is statutory register in response to the events that took simply not defensible. place in March 2010. At that time, several former Ministers were accused of behaviour that, following the John Mann: I have not put that argument. Lobbyists report of the Select Committee on Standards and Privileges, are lobbyists and trade union lobbyists are lobbyists. led to their being banned from the House for a significant However, every trade union member and trade union period. I only say that to calm down some Labour official is not a lobbyist. A lobbyist is a lobbyist. I, for Members who get rather paranoid about the speed with one, have never been one. which the Government are working. As I have said, we will publish the consultation paper this month and we Mr Harper: But every trade union official who seeks will make progress. The previous Government did not to influence Members and Ministers is engaged in lobbying, do that during the 13 years they were in office, so can we and they should be covered by the transparency rules just have a bit of calm? I am very happy to work with just like everyone else. They have nothing to hide and it the hon. Member for Caerphilly who speaks for the is important that the hon. Gentleman recognises that Opposition on a consensual basis. as, to be fair, I think several Labour Members do. 289WH Parliamentary Lobbying 2 NOVEMBER 2011 290WH

There will be some challenges about definitions and Living Standards (Telford) what we encompass in our consultation. That is why we want to listen and ensure that people can make a case and approach Members of Parliament, and that there is 11 am nothing untoward going on. We need to ensure that David Wright (Telford) (Lab): It is a great pleasure to there is transparency, that people know what is going see you in the Chair, Mr Robertson, on a fine morning on, that Members of Parliament and Ministers are in Westminster. Having said that it is a fine morning in using their judgment about the arguments when they Westminster, it is a difficult time for families in Telford, are making decisions and that people are not getting who are struggling with higher food prices and energy privileged access. bills, and who are worried about their jobs and their Transparency is a good thing. We will introduce our children’s futures. People in Telford are experiencing a proposals this month and listen to what people have to significant squeeze on their living standards as a result say. I am very happy to have a dialogue with the hon. of the global economic crisis and the deficit reduction Member for Caerphilly to try to reach a consensual strategy being pursued by the coalition Government. approach between the parties because the position will The global financial crisis has hit every country. The then be much clearer. The hon. Member for Newport downturn was not created in Britain; it was caused by West made a valid point that we need our constituents the irresponsible actions of the banks, which pushed up to have much more confidence in the system. I hope deficits in every major country. Every country, therefore, that we can reduce the chances of abuse and problems faces the challenge of getting its deficit down. The occurring in future. question is how quickly that should be done, and how to ensure that economic recovery is not choked off, which would make things worse. I will return to that theme later, but I want to focus specifically on Telford and the situation that my constituents find themselves in. There is a very worrying trend in the number of people out of work and claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Telford. As of September this year, 2,929 are in that position. That is an 85.1% increase on the same period in 2006, with a 6% rise since last year. Some 345 people have been claiming for 12 months or more; that is 5% of 16 to 64-year-olds, and 6.6% of the economically active population. More than 1,000 people aged 24 and under claimed jobseeker’s allowance in September. A third of the total number of people unemployed are young people. More than three people— 3.4 people, in fact—are chasing every vacancy that is notified to Jobcentre Plus. The actual figure is probably higher than that, as companies tell me that they get hundreds of applications for every job that they advertise. I visit companies in my constituency, and they always get a flood of applications when they advertise a post. Telford has a large number of public sector jobs, and some of the biggest private sector employers are reliant on public sector contracts. Uncertainty over job cuts and low growth in the economy generally—in fact, a virtual flatlining of growth—has left people worried about their future. In turn, that has a number of consequences, such as a sapping of confidence in the local housing market. A report published yesterday by the Home Builders Federation shows that in 2000, house prices in Telford and Wrekin stood at 3.41 times average earnings. In 2010, that had risen to 6.1 times average earnings. Lower-quartile house prices—the properties most likely to be bought by first-time buyers— have risen from £42,750 in 2000 to £107,500 in 2010. People are struggling to secure mortgages, and entry into the market is very difficult for first-time buyers. There is a burgeoning private rental market in Telford. Every week, when I pick up the Telford Journal, there are significant numbers of properties up for private rent—a clear sign that the sales sector of the local housing market is struggling, and that there is a lack of confidence. That is the backdrop to an intense squeeze on living standards for those who are in work. We all know that inflation is high, with the retail prices index at 5.6%—the 291WH Living Standards (Telford)2 NOVEMBER 2011 Living Standards (Telford) 292WH

[David Wright] On household incomes, the Government’s decisions on VAT rub salt in the wounds of every family in highest annual rate since 1991. The Government seem Telford. The latest report from the Office for National to be largely ignoring that fact. They are keen to downplay Statistics states: the importance of inflation in the economic landscape, “The poorest fifth of households in the UK spent a higher like someone who thinks that if they cover their eyes the proportion of their expenditure on goods and services that attracted problem will just go away. For those on low and fixed Value Added Tax (VAT) in 2009/10 than in 1986…Poorer households incomes, including pensioners, inflation is a hammer in 1986 spent a smaller proportion of their expenditure, than blow, particularly when interest rates on savings are not poorer households in 2009/10, on discretionary items which attracted keeping pace with inflation. Meanwhile, wages are being VAT…the data shows the poorest fifth of households in the UK pay more in VAT as a percentage of their disposable income than squeezed. Indeed, the Governor of the Bank of England the richest fifth.” has said that real wages this year are likely to be no higher than they were in 2005. This is the first time since VAT is hitting the poorest people in our community the the 1920s that wages have fallen over a six-year period. most. We need a quick rethink on our VAT strategy. We need to ensure that we support households that find it Food prices are on the rise, and the big six energy very difficult to make ends meet. companies have announced sharp rises in prices. Families now face average bills of more than £1,200 a year for I mentioned pensioners earlier, and I wanted to say gas and electricity.Across the west midlands, approximately that many of them in Telford tell me how important the one household in four lives in fuel poverty, spending winter fuel allowance and free local bus travel are. The more than 10% of its income on fuel costs. I regularly yearly tax-free payment to help people pay for their see constituents in Telford who complain bitterly about heating in winter was worth £250 for over-60s and £400 fuel prices. Households in poor-quality housing face for over-80s. I was extremely disappointed that the even higher energy costs. We need a major review of coalition decided that the payment will revert to £200 how the energy market operates, and we need to bring and £300 for the two age groups in the winter of greater competition into the market. Privatisation effectively 2011-12. I urge the Government to think again in their created a six-company cartel for energy, with the big pre-Budget report. providers dominating the scene. We need to diversify I do not claim that Telford has problems that have that market if we can, or at least do what the Prime emerged only in the past 18 months—frankly, that Minister suggested—I support him on this—and ensure would be ridiculous. Telford and Wrekin has higher better information on bills, so that people can compare than average levels of multiple deprivation, especially in prices against those of other providers. That is crucial. wards in the south of the town, and we have a significant We need energy companies to invest more, and to try to number of children living in poverty. The End Child bring down prices. Poverty campaign group, which fights to give poor families a voice, estimates that 30% of children in the I mentioned the number of young people claiming Telford constituency were living in poverty in mid-2010, JSA in Telford. The next generation has seen the future compared with 23.1% in England as a whole; in some jobs fund and the education maintenance allowance wards, the figure was approaching more than double scrapped. Alongside that, two thirds of universities that. Children are classified as being in poverty if they plan to charge the new £9,000 tuition fee, and average live in families in receipt of out-of-work benefits, or in fees will be more than £8,000. Clearly, the situation is receipt of in-work tax credits, and with a reported very difficult for young people who are looking to get income of less than 60% of median income. Telford and into employment, training or education. We need a Wrekin’s NHS trust states that 9,305 children are living massive drive to get young people into education, training in poverty in the borough. or work. Our activity needs to be focused on the needs of young people in towns such as Telford. Those problems have no quick fix. I am proud of the work of the previous Government, who introduced tax credits and a range of benefits to support children. Sure Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Does the hon. Start children’s centres have been a major success in the Gentleman accept that one of the ways that standards town, and the Building Schools for the Future programme of living can be improved for the constituents of Telford promised the opportunity for every child to enjoy state- and The Wrekin is by ensuring that public finances are of-the-art learning facilities. Locally, that policy was managed well, both nationally and locally? Given that supported on both sides of the council chamber, I am Telford and Wrekin borough council has a new Labour pleased to say, but we must still do more to support administration, does he support my call for a council families. tax freeze in the coming years to help those who are People in Telford regularly raise the issue of the cost struggling to make ends meet? of child care and the continuing inflexibility of the labour market, and we need to do much more work on David Wright: Clearly, the council will have to look at those policy areas, but the key to improving living its budget very carefully. It will have a number of standards in the town is to secure growth in the economy pressures in the next year or so. We will have to consider and attract more high-paid work. That approach helps the Government’s funding proposals for the local authority. people who are struggling and who are having their Clearly, the council will look at its budget-setting. Its living standards squeezed, and supports business. difficulty is that massive cuts are in place, and they are Immediate action should include the following five affecting the poorest people in our community. The points—they will not come as too much of a surprise to answer to the hon. Gentleman is that we will have to you, Mr Robertson. First, a £2 billion tax on bank wait and see. At the moment, I do not know what the bonuses could fund 100,000 jobs for young people and council’s position will be on council tax. build 25,000 affordable homes. Secondly, long-term 293WH Living Standards (Telford)2 NOVEMBER 2011 Living Standards (Telford) 294WH investment projects, such as new school buildings, should The other important issue that the Government have be brought forward—we have done well in Telford with taken into account is the real financial problem that that kind of approach. Thirdly, the VAT rise should be council tax causes families. A council tax freeze recognises temporarily reversed, which would give a £450 boost for the financial challenges that the hon. Gentleman rightly families with children. Fourthly, there ought to be a outlined. Our measures recognise those challenges and one-year cut in VAT to 5% on home improvements and try to help families to make ends meet in these difficult repairs, to help small businesses. Fifthly, there ought to times. be a tax break for every small firm that takes on extra As a Minister in the Department for Work and workers. In short, in Telford we need Labour’s five-point Pensions, I very much feel that employment is the way plan for growth. out for many of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, and would enable them to achieve the standard of living that I know he wants them to enjoy. 11.12 am The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Does and Pensions (Maria Miller): I commend the hon. Member the Minister agree that the fantastic recent news that for Telford (David Wright) on securing this debate, Jaguar Land Rover has decided to invest in my constituency which I am sure is important for his constituents. He will create an awful lot of employment, and not only in covered a wide range of issues, and I hope that I can set South Staffordshire? It will benefit many people working out some of the action that the Government are taking. in the supply chain industry in Telford and across the I absolutely understand his concern about the challenges region. that families face. I am sure that he welcomes the swift action that the Government have taken to address many Maria Miller: I thank my hon. Friend for mentioning of those underlying concerns. As my hon. Friend the that very real example of how British industry—indeed, Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) said, if we the manufacturing sector—is benefiting from the stability are to provide the long-term stability that families need, that the Government have achieved by getting our the first thing that we must do is secure the public public finances in order and ensuring that people feel finances. The truth is that the Government inherited that it is right to continue to invest in our country. It is from Labour—the party that the hon. Member for not only large employers, such as the one that he cited, Telford represents—the largest public budget deficit in but smaller employers who look to the Government to peacetime history: it was some £156 billion, which is ensure that Britain is a great place to do business. The more than the deficit in many other developed countries, work undertaken by our colleagues in the Department and it accounts for around 11% of our country’s annual for Business, Innovation and Skills shows the Government’s income. commitment to the issue. We are improving support for new businesses with a Mark Pritchard: The hon. Member for Telford (David 40,000-strong network of experienced business mentors. Wright) set out five points for growth, but he could have We are working to strip away regulations, and we are had a sixth point: stop taxpayers’ money being used to cutting corporate taxes. We will bring the headline rate fund unions in local authorities. Most people in Telford down to 23% by 2014, making this country one of the and Wrekin would rather see their taxpayers’ money most attractive places to set up a new business. We are spent on a weekly bin collection than on full-time union giving micro-businesses a three-year exemption from all officials who will possibly campaign in local elections. new domestic regulations from April 2011, and we are helping small and medium-sized enterprises to create Maria Miller: My hon. Friend makes an important new jobs by investing £180 million in 250,000 new point. Councils have a real challenge in ensuring that apprentices. Those are the sorts of practical ways in they are using their money most efficiently. An important which the Government are supporting the constituents recent report by Scope showed a huge divergence in of the hon. Member for Telford, so that they are not, as how councils are approaching their budget challenges. perhaps happened under the previous Government, By making decisions on what is most important for our consigned to unemployment, but given the opportunity constituents and local residents, we can ensure that the to get into work. money goes where it is needed most. I have great If we look at the unemployment figures for Telford sympathy for his point about weekly bin collections. from 2008 to 2010, the sad truth is that the rate nearly Ensuring that public finances are secure is at the heart doubled. Even more tragically, under the previous of what our Government are all about. Administration, the number of young people who sought Let me set out for the constituents of the hon. Member jobseeker’s allowance increased from a little more than for Telford some practical ways in which the Government 500 to more than 900. At a time when the economy was are taking account of the pressure on families’ finances. growing, the previous Administration did not do enough The cut in fuel duty made by the coalition counters to help individuals get into work, and the recession has some of the measures of the previous Administration. made a difficult situation worse for the hon. Gentleman’s Rather than recognising the problems faced by families, constituents. That is why my Department has been the previous Government put this country on an ever- looking at a wide-ranging set of reforms. The universal increasing fuel duty escalator, creating some of the credit will ensure that work will pay, and the Work problems that we are dealing with. Rather than continuing programme will ensure bespoke and individual support on that escalator, the Government decided not to implement to get people into work in long-term, sustainable jobs. Labour’s planned increase of 5p per litre in April this That practical support will give his constituents the sort year and, in the Budget, announced a further 1p cut as of job that will secure them the standard of living that well, recognising the real challenges faced by families. he is fighting for them to enjoy. I hope that he will 295WH Living Standards (Telford)2 NOVEMBER 2011 Living Standards (Telford) 296WH

[Maria Miller] those with the broadest shoulders bear the greatest burdens and support the most vulnerable and those support the introduction of the universal credit and the facing the biggest challenges in society. We have made Work programme, which will benefit his constituents in sure that those on the highest incomes contribute more the way that I outlined. towards the entire fiscal consolidation, not only in cash As the Minister with responsibility for disabled people, terms but as a proportion of their income and consumption I note the challenges that many of the hon. Gentleman’s of public services combined. That is why we introduced disabled constituents will face, so the Department has the new fairness premium. been looking very carefully at how we can support and On the hon. Gentleman’s analysis of the role that help disabled people into not just short-term but long-term VAT could play in trying to redress what he called an employment, and help them to retain jobs that they may imbalance in fairness, I draw his attention to the fact already have. I was pleased to note that Remploy that fairness is very much at the heart of the Government’s Employment Services has supported almost 200 individuals approach to addressing the fiscal deficit, and across the in the past year in the hon. Gentleman’s area. It has whole piece we are making sure that those who can pay helped individuals with disabilities or in challenging bear the biggest burden. circumstances to get into work, and throughout the Child poverty is an area for which I have direct Shropshire area it has helped more than 500 people to responsibility. I hope that the hon. Gentleman welcomes get into employment. That practical help will really the child poverty strategy that the Government introduced make a difference to the residents of Telford. That in April. I also hope that he welcomes our evolving idea success story applies to the broader employment market for a commission to look not only at child poverty but as well. social mobility. I am sure that he wants to ensure that Telford jobcentre has around 1,000 new vacancies his constituents have social mobility, so that they can every month. I hope that the individuals whom the hon. enjoy a better quality of life and standard of living. By Gentleman represents will be able to get skills under drawing those two important issues into one commission, their belt through the Work programme and take advantage the Government can be held to account, and there can of that job market. No one is saying that it is easy or be the right level of scrutiny of our policies. The child straightforward. It is a challenge, particularly in an area poverty strategy underpins the Government’s ambition that has had a great history of industry that has evolved for children to be able to realise their potential throughout and changed. I speak with a little knowledge, having the country, whether they live in the north, south, east, been born and brought up not far away. The communities west or, indeed, the midlands—the area that the hon. face real challenges. However, through the Work programme Gentleman represents. and the support that we can give people to get the right The universal credit is one of the most potent tools sort of apprenticeship training, we can help many of for addressing child poverty. I am sure that the hon. the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. Perhaps they have Gentleman will have followed very closely the debate in felt that they did not have the relevant support to get this place and the other place. The introduction of into employment before, but we will provide support to universal credit, which tries to simplify our overly complex help them get the sort of jobs that will give them the benefits system, will help around 900,000 individuals, standard of living that I know the hon. Gentleman including more than 350,000 children, out of poverty wants them to be able to enjoy. by making sure that work pays. People will understand I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about fuel that our very complex benefits system can be simplified prices and the challenges that families face, but I hope and made to work for them, rather than there being a that he is reassured by my earlier comments on the jungle of different benefits, as is the case at the moment. actions that the Government have taken, particularly The hon. Gentleman mentioned the importance of around fuel duty, to ease the burden on motorists. We child care in making sure that work pays. I agree that know that the challenge goes further than that, and that that is important. I know from my constituents—I am the problem falls particularly on our older constituents. sure that this is true of his as well—that the costs of We have therefore prioritised the importance of the child care can make all the difference to being able to winter fuel payment, which will be £200 for those born get into work. The Government have recognised the before 5 January 1951, and £300 for those aged 80 and difficulties that families face. We have reaffirmed our over. Indeed, we have gone further than the previous commitment to helping parents with the costs of child Government by permanently increasing the cold weather care by investing an extra £300 million in child care payment, which is a very targeted way of getting support support under the universal credit system. Individuals to vulnerable constituents, about whom I know he will who perhaps found it difficult to stay close to the labour be concerned when he is talking about fuel duty. We are market when they had children, because they were not increasing that payment from £8.50 to £25. Again, in a able to do a full-time job, will for the first time have practical way, we are recognising the challenges facing access to child care cost support. Individuals working families, and particularly the most vulnerable in our fewer than 16 hours a week will be able to get the communities. I hope that I have been able to draw support that will enable them to do a few hours’ work a together the issues that we are putting in place to help week. That will keep them close to the labour market, the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. and perhaps when their children are older, they will be It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman brought up able to take on more work. The Government are trying the issue of VAT. There is nothing fair about the deficit to help families through difficult times in practical that the Government and the people of Britain inherited ways, so that they can build better lives. from the Labour Administration. It is not fair that so I have covered many of the issues that the hon. many families were trapped in a cycle of dependency. Gentleman raised. If I have left any out, I am sure that Our decisive dealing with the deficit has ensured that he will raise them with me separately. I hope that I have 297WH Living Standards (Telford) 2 NOVEMBER 2011 298WH reassured him and his constituents that the Government High-Speed Rail absolutely understand the pressures that families are under at the moment. We are taking very practical steps to alleviate some of the financial pressures that families [NADINE DORRIES in the Chair] face. We are looking to the long term and putting in place the sorts of building blocks that will help families, individuals, and parents, and will help children to get 2.30 pm the right start in life. We will help people to get the Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): support that they need to get good jobs and keep them It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, in the long term. We are trying to give them the standard Ms Dorries, for what I think is the first time. of living that the hon. Gentleman and I want them to Members may wonder why we are having yet another enjoy. debate on High Speed 2. In fact, we are not; we are having a debate on high-speed rail in the north. I 11.29 am requested this debate partly because when we discussed Sitting suspended. the issue in the main Chamber a couple of weeks ago, I felt that there were not enough contributions from the north, and I wanted to rebalance the equation. I do not want to debate the merits of HS2 today, and I do not really want to talk about anything south of Birmingham if I can help it. I want the debate to focus on the north, and I do not intend to stop at the Scottish border. I deliberately used the word “north” to encourage Scottish Members to participate in the debate. I will try to make clear the terms of the debate, and also state what the debate is not. I used the phrase “high-speed rail in the north” to ensure that the debate was not about HS2—which to my mind is ultra high speed—but about high-speed rail as a concept. Equally, I make a plea for a slightly more consensual style, compared to previous debates. New infrastructure projects understandably excite high passions, but wandering into Prime Minister’s questions wearing a colourful badge that cannot be read by anyone watching TV, let alone other Members, does not benefit either set of arguments, and diminishes the dignity of the House. That does not mean, however, that we have to accept a mushy consensus on infrastructure projects. I accept that we will disagree, but I hope that we can do so in a polite and measured way. If I were given billions of pounds to spend on transport in the north of England, would I immediately reach for high-speed rail links to London? Perhaps not. When “The Northern Way” transport compact first got going in 2006-07, it did not mention high-speed rail because that was simply not on the agenda. It focused on improved connectivity in the north of England, rather than between the north and the south, and it highlighted the importance of the trans-Pennine corridor. That importance was emphasised by the Government’s switch from the S-route to the Y-route, together with the issue of what to do with the Woodhead tunnels. I would also welcome a little reassurance from the Minister on the northern hub. Even if it is to be delivered in parts, will the sum of those parts still equal the whole of the vision? I trust that it will. We must consider how we differ from our European counterparts. If I think of the Liverpool-Manchester metropolis, it rather reminds me of the Rhine-Ruhrgebiet in Germany, another heavily industrialised urban area. One difference, however, between this country and the Rhine-Ruhr area is the comparatively poor transport links found in our metropolises. We can learn a lot just by looking at Germany for a change. I have no shortage of material for this debate, and although I could probably speak for an hour and a half without trying, I promise that I have no intention of 299WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 300WH

[Paul Maynard] In evidence to the Transport Committee, Professor Tomaney from Newcastle university stated: doing so. I will try to take a step back and look at some “The stations themselves do not, on their own, provide those of the more thematic policy issues and the effect that a development opportunities. What is required is much larger-scale decision to proceed with any form of high-speed rail economic development planning.” north of Birmingham will have on Government policy Hon. Members may think that I, a Conservative, would making. I do not want to see half-baked solutions that hide my head under the desk at that statement—“How run to other people’s political timetables. could he possibly suggest economic planning? What an appalling thing to do!”—but it is more subtle than that. Quality of policy making is crucial; it is what I came If we know that a high-speed rail link will go to the into politics to try to improve, and no matter what party centre of Manchester, we have to deal not only with is in power, I think that the quality and detail of public issues of dispersal, an integrated transport system and policy making in this country is bad. The quality of our whether the buses and suburban trains interlink, but understanding of transport in the north of England is, wider policy issues about housing and jobs, and schools to my mind, entirely due to work by “The Northern policy in particular, which is often overlooked in transport Way” over the past five years, and I mourn its loss planning. We should look at the wider policy, not just at greatly. I do not blame the Government entirely for that issues of transport, and as the Government move forward loss, and it is a shame that many of the local actors who and consider how to progress with high-speed rail, they had the chance to fund “The Northern Way” after the must look at more than just transport. closure of the regional development agencies did not take the opportunity to do so. The loss of “The Northern There are risks, and it is silly to pretend that high-speed Way” has created a fundamental problem, because we rail will be only a good thing and that nothing bad have lost the pan-northern perspective and the ability to could ever happen. Professor Roger Vickerman also weigh up differing priorities in Yorkshire, the north-west gave evidence to the Transport Committee, and pointed and the north-east. We are seeing a retreat back to lists out that although the arrival of the TGV in Lyons and of regional priorities, with Manchester wanting one Lille benefited those two cities, it also sucked in some of thing, Liverpool another, and Leeds something else, the economic activity from towns in their immediate and there is no body that tries to pull those things peripheries. Unless the correct decisions are taken locally, together and says, “Your proposal is slightly better than high-speed rail could arrive in one city and cause a that one.” We need some form of co-ordinating body diminution in economic activity in a neighbouring city, that would allow such prioritisation. suburb or minor area. That is a possibility, but certainly not a given. There are no givens in this debate because, I participated in the Transport Committee inquiry as I say, the situation depends entirely on the decision into high-speed rail—I assure hon. Members that it was making at local and regional level. Whether someone is a mammoth undertaking, and I do not think that my a supporter or a detractor—a friend or foe—of high-speed life will ever be the same—so I know how much controversy rail, they have to agree that that must be part of the there has been not only over the detail of the route, but debate, and I argue strongly that it has been absent from about which field the line will or will not go through, the debate so far. how noisy or quiet it will be, how big this will be and how small that will be. We have perhaps never seen such Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): As a controversy over a single infrastructure project. The fellow member of the Transport Committee I, too, was debate was based on the single premise—the single on the visit to which the hon. Gentleman refers. Although fallacy—that merely building infrastructure automatically we heard that argument made in Lille, in Frankfurt we promotes economic growth. It does not. It is not a case heard a counter-argument: the Frankfurt to Cologne of “Build it and they will come”; we need look only at line had a significant impact in improving the whole so-called Stratford International station to know that. region, not just the two places where there was a station. Stratford International station in east London is remarkable People argued strongly in Frankfurt that there was a in having no international train services—most impressive. benefit for the whole region between those two areas. It is a classic example of the sort of white elephant that those of us who are concerned about levels of public expenditure do not wish to see. Paul Maynard: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He is correct and almost makes my point The Department for Transport’s promotion of high-speed for me: it is horses for courses. We can all point to rail has focused on the three Ls—Lille, Lyons and examples of high-speed rail achieving one thing in one Lleida—as examples of how investment in high-speed area and a different thing in another. The most interesting rail in Europe has brought economic growth to the aspect of the German example that he points to is that surrounding areas. However, for every city named by Frankfurt is at the confluence of about four different the DFT, the anti-high-speed rail campaign provides an Länder. It is quite difficult for Frankfurt to have regional alternative, and says that high-speed rail makes no planning when, at the level at which that tends to occur, difference at all, is a total waste of money and that we it has about four different bodies to try to liaise with. should not bother. At the end, it is rather like the That again shows the difficulties, but also that if the will Eurovision song contest on a city basis, with “nul points is there, the correct decisions can be made that lead to for Zaragoza,” and “dix points for Brussels.” That is not economic growth. informative, and what matters is not so much the location, That is perhaps the challenge that we have to face: at the name of the city or how good its PR effort is, but what level do we seek to take the decisions? I am firmly what the local government in the area chooses to do in of the view that local transport consortiums—or whichever response to hearing that it will get a high-speed rail link. range of acronyms we wish to append to the matter this That critical variable is often overlooked in the debate. week—are crucial for moving forward. I would welcome 301WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 302WH information from the Government on how that is deal with the reality of people’s lives, rather than having progressing. We can point to Transport for Greater arbitrary decisions made in Whitehall about what councils Manchester as a very good example of what can be do or do not exist? done. It is interesting and welcome that the differing integrated transport authorities are all moving at what I Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. I ask hon. suggest is a slightly different pace in their own particular Members to keep to the substantive issue of the debate direction. Standardisation is being lost, and there is, I when making interventions. think, more local sensibility. That can only be a good thing, but it still does not resolve the problem that I Paul Maynard: I agree entirely with the hon. Member shall refer to, with apologies to the hon. Member for for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) that this should West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), as the Skelmersdale be about people’s lives. Let us imagine that high-speed problem. I mean no disrespect to that fine town. rail is coming to Liverpool. That will have an impact on the lives of people outside the former Merseyside as Skelmersdale is in the travel-to-work area of at least well as inside it, whether they are in Cheshire, Halton, two major conurbations—Manchester and Liverpool—yet Skelmersdale or wherever, and we have to respond to it is not in either the Greater Manchester or Merseyside that. city regions. It is in the district of West Lancashire. That poses a challenge for transport planning, because we Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ seem to have in this country a culture that says, “You Co-op): I would like to turn the focus slightly away from are where you are. You are defined by your boundaries, Lancashire and Merseyside for a second. The hon. not by your economic patterns or what actually happens Gentleman is making a very powerful argument for the in an area.” We also seem to have an unwritten rule that importance of local networks and making the most of says, “You can only be in one club at any one time. You high-speed rail. That applies in Scotland as well. Does can’t be in both the Greater Manchester area and the he agree that it is important that a decision and commitment Merseyside area at the same time. Heaven forfend!” is made at an early stage that the routes will run to That has consequences, as I hope the hon. Lady would Glasgow and Edinburgh, not just because that will agree, for her constituents, in terms of improving transport benefit our areas but because it will bring particular links to both the main areas. added value to communities further south, which will gain from the extra business that the extension to Edinburgh Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): The hon. and Glasgow will bring to communities all along the Gentleman encapsulates the problem that my constituents line? have. The new town of Skelmersdale is 50 years old this year. It has no railway station and very poor transport Paul Maynard: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that links, and it is therefore isolated. If we could extend the intervention. That is precisely why I used the phrase development of high-speed rail through the north-west, “high-speed rail in the north”—because I did mean that would bring economic benefits right round, not north as far as Scotland, and not just to the Scottish just to the Skelmersdale part of my constituency, but to border. As I said, we seem to spend a lot of time trading the Ormskirk and Burscough areas, with the Burscough cases of where high-speed rail has worked and where it curves joining lines up to Preston. It is nonsense that in has not. I have tried to ban the word “transformative” the 21st century we should be caught between two from my lexicon, because I have got so bored of hearing stools. We have no railway station and no transport people tell me that high-speed rail will be transformative. links, and are therefore losing out on a huge economic I am not quite sure in what way or with what evidence—they benefit. just like to say it because it sounds good. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I Paul Maynard: I thank the hon. Lady for that informative congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important intervention. I know that there is no shortage of transport debate, because it is on an issue that we have been proposals in West Lancashire. She has not even mentioned talking about, but that there has not been much action the Ormskirk bypass yet. We could go on and on, I am around. When he talks about local areas, does he really sure. mean that? I ask because I think that the programme To my mind, city regions have the best potential. I will never take off unless there is a national planning know that potentially they are also controversial. I am committee that can oversee everything about the idea. sure that many people would not want a return to Merseyside. However, I welcome the proposals from Paul Maynard: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Lord Heseltine and Terry Leahy; if we are to have intervention. I spent an hour at lunchtime trying to elected mayors in our great cities, they probably need to work out whether I was a Liberal or not. I was reading cover more than just the council of that name. the yellow book from 1928, called “Our Industrial Future”, which recommended precisely what he has referred to—a national infrastructure planning commission Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): As a proud that would take the decisions. That is all well and good, Merseysider, I have to correct the hon. Gentleman and but I come from a different political tradition. I discovered tell him that Merseyside still exists, certainly in transport that I was a Conservative after all. The reason why I am terms. One of the important things that he is telling us talking so much about local decision making is that for is that interconnectivity between city regions that cover high-speed rail to have the impact that we all want it to places such as Skelmersdale, and from Wirral to north have—in particular, for the rebalancing of the economy Wales, is among the most important factors. There is that the Government so value—there are decisions that already some good practice on the ground, certainly in will have to be taken at local level. My concern is that if Merseyside, in that respect. Is his point that we should we do not think about that now, it will not happen, so I 303WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 304WH

[Paul Maynard] other Departments look at them means that they contain so many variables that one can make them say anything hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but the tenor of my one likes. remarks is designed to draw attention to where we need The important thing about the project is that it has better local decision making, and where the DFT needs been justified on two grounds. The first is that there is to factor local priorities into its planning. an immediate issue with capacity between Birmingham I will try to draw my remarks to a close, because I and the south, and the second, which comes along later, have been going on for almost 20 minutes. In particular, is that it will help rebalance the country, and the country I would like the Government to convene something certainly needs rebalancing. analogous to “The Northern Way”, be it a ministerial On the second justification, I have spent my political committee for transport in the north of England, an life trying to get investment into the north of England advisory group or whatever. It should be something and into Manchester in particular. If we want to use the that will bring together all the different voices in the project to rebalance the country, it is odd to start north for the purposes of understanding and reprioritising. building it from the south to the north and not put a A large number of projects have been proposed, with spade in the ground in the north of England for potentially varying cost-benefit ratios that we have all looked at 15 or 16 years. The reason for that is the reason that we and analysed to the nth degree. We need some way of always get from the Department for Transport: the working out what the pan-northern priorities are. At capacity problem. Such an analysis of why we invest in the moment, I am concerned that that will not occur, so infrastructure is one of the reasons why 95% of our I hope that the Minister can reassure me on that key capital expenditure on transport in England goes into point. London and the south-east—it is crowded there. If we use that as a basis for our investment decisions, we will 2.50 pm always put it there and increase crowdedness, effectively subsidising congestion. I would argue that if we want to Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I make an impact on the north-south divide, we need congratulate the hon. Member for Blackpool North to start in the north and look at all the projects that and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on securing this important are determined by congestion and overcrowding as debate, with the specific title and terms of reference that economically transformative. I know that the hon. Member he spelled out. I also congratulate him on his powerful for Blackpool North and Cleveleys will object to my use description and analysis of many issues involved; I of that term; I rarely use it, but it is important in the agree with a great deal of what he said, although not context of getting as many bangs for our bucks with every full stop and comma. economically, as well as dealing with the immediate I want to make a few points about the project and transport problem. I ask the Department to look at the how it relates to the north-west of England and the issue generally. north of the country beyond Birmingham. I would like I think that the claims for the impact on the north of to draw an analogy with trams. At the moment, Manchester England from High Speed 2 are ambiguous. I did not go is trebling the size of its tram network, while Liverpool, on the trips—I was not serving on the Transport Committee Southampton and Leeds do not have trams. The important at the time—but there is certainly a case that Cordoba, point that I draw from that is not that Manchester’s Turin, Lille and Lyon have benefited. One could also case, which is good for the tram network, was much make the case that high-speed rail has sometimes had a better than the case of the other cities, but that the 10 negative impact on those cities. The same is true with districts of Greater Manchester and the three political roads, or with any transport infrastructure, because parties were united. To cite the comments of my right roads go both ways: they can take economic activity hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), away from or into an area. the politics in Merseyside were dysfunctional when it came to trams. Having all-party support and as much Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): I represent backing as possible for a project is almost as important—in Stoke-on-Trent, where there are fears that High Speed 2 some ways more important—than different economic could reduce connectivity if the line passes the city and cases, a cost-benefit analysis and an economic impact does not stop there, while the capacity on the west coast analysis. main line—the Manchester-London route—is diminished. It is important to keep such an all-party group together. While Stoke-on-Trent might benefit from the growth of This country has too little infrastructure, which damages Manchester or Birmingham, there are fears in the city the whole economy. One of the reasons why we have too about its own connectivity with HS2. little transport infrastructure is that we have not always been able to build an alliance between the parties. I Graham Stringer: There is a fear. There are genuine could give example after example of where we should worries in Stoke, and potentially Coventry and south have had motorways, railways, trams and runways where Wales, that there could be a negative impact. I would we do not have them. Therefore I welcome a detailed ask those areas please not to have a dog-in-a-manger debate, whether it comes from the Front Benches, the attitude and say, “Let us not have this excellent new Back Benches or people with constituency involvement. piece of transport infrastructure.” Let us work out how The high-speed rail system is a major piece of infrastructure, we can get investment in those areas, using either high-speed which, whatever its impact to the north and the south, rail or something else. If people end up just opposing will help the country as a whole, and it is important to the project, they will damage the economic and transport understand that. base of the whole country. I have read many cost-benefit analyses over the years, Mark Lazarowicz: Does not the point that was semi- and while it is important to prepare them, the way in raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent which the Treasury, the Department for Transport and Central (Tristram Hunt) underline the need for some 305WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 306WH form of regional transport planning? We do not want to Graham Stringer: It is ridiculous, but that does not build stations with no connections to the wider community mean that Action Alliance does not have a point in and area; we want Stoke and other similar cities that are saying that it is dangerous; the world is dangerous. We not on but near the line to have good links. We can see have to take our opportunities to create jobs where we that in the best European systems, which is why the can. It does not automatically lead to growth, but it benefits are more widely spread there. would be negative not to take this opportunity to have growth. To emphasise that point, let me make one more Graham Stringer: Absolutely. It makes sense that comparison between Manchester and Liverpool—I am people can connect to other places if a high-speed line is not having a go at Liverpool because this, unlike the built. I know that the timetables of the rail system in the story about the trams, has a happy ending. There is a north, which I know better than that in the midlands more solid case for saying that airports have a real and Scotland, are slower than they were in 1880s—I say economic benefit for regions. Unlike roads, they rarely that in nearly every debate in which I speak. Taking out have a negative impact. Merseyside county council did congestion points and improving the northern system a lot of work on Liverpool airport. It extended the and that in the rest of the country must be the best way runway and got an estuarial take-off. The whole scheme to use the investment that is going into the project. should have had many advantages, but they were realised I want to finish on some points made by the hon. only when John Whittaker and the Peel Group took the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys and by the opportunity and bought Liverpool airport and brought Action Alliance, which opposes high-speed rail, in the some commercial acumen and ability to it. There are document that it sent out today. First, if someone had real advantages here. I hope that we can keep the £33 billion to spend in the north or the whole of all-party alliance together because this project is important England, they would not necessarily sit down and say, for the country as a whole. As it is called high-speed “This is it”; they would probably sit down for a long rail, perhaps it should be done from north to south time and not agree to spend anything. However, the because that would be slightly quicker than the schedules project is out of the starting blocks, and there are many that are envisaged at the moment. benefits to be had from it. If someone were to ask, “Should the country have motorways?” the answer would Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): I call David Mowat. be, “Yes, we should have motorways.” In the same way, we should have high-speed rail. That, together with 3.3 pm all-party support, is the real justification for the £33 billion. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I was not Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): The hon. Gentleman expecting to be called. I would have preferred to wait a makes a good point. High-speed rail is important to the little before making my speech. I will be fairly brief. I north of England, but it needs to be developed alongside want to touch on the business case figure for high-speed the classic network and also alongside aviation and rail, which is estimated at 2.6, including the wider road. We need a strategic transport policy that covers economic benefits. That is considerably higher than the everything. High-speed rail is not the panacea, but it is business case of Crossrail. I know that we can all doubt part of a strategic transport plan. the Department’s methodology, but nevertheless let us put that on the table first. Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is right. Even One of the arguments against the project is whether though I am a member of the Labour party, I am we can afford it. It costs £32 billion and we are in a always slightly cautious about having the perfect plan. time of recession. It is also worth saying that it will cost When one is involved in transport plans or economic £2 billion a year, which will kick in more or less when development—it does not matter whether it is in the Crossrail finishes. On a cash-flow basis, therefore, it is private or the public sector—one has to be opportunistic not too tough. The business case is predicated on capacity and take what is there. Sometimes it can take too long constraints. I have some conservative figures here. Over to wait for the perfect plan. That does not mean that we the last decade and a half, rail journeys have increased should not think about how we can connect different by around 5% a year. This business case assumes an parts of the system. increase of 1.6% a year. We do not know whether that Like the hon. Member for Blackpool North and will happen; it may not, but the figure is certainly not Cleveleys, Action Alliance makes the point that high-speed aggressive. rail does not automatically bring with it economic benefits. Let us take, for example, the economies of The business case has been criticised because it does Manchester and London, or Birmingham and London. not take into account people’s ability to work and be Some argue that high-speed rail exposes them to bigger productive while travelling and therefore overestimates markets, which is true because the train goes both ways. the benefit for time saving in terms of economic activity. A dynamic city or region is at a real advantage. What It has been shown in a number of debates that such a city would not want to be in a bigger market so that view is false because if these trains are so full that they can attract more people and investment? Although everyone is standing up, no one can work on PCs or it is possible to fail in such an area, it is easier to succeed anything else. The business case is supported if we if there is high-speed rail. assume that. In his excellent remarks, the hon. Member for Blackley David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I, too, was and Broughton (Graham Stringer) talked about the struck by the Action Alliance analysis that when we north-south divide, for which this project is not a panacea. improve connectivity, the stronger city benefits and the However, to say that it will not make a contribution is weaker city loses out. If we follow that logic through to just fatuous. We have already talked about the pamphlet the end, it means that we should close the M6, the M1 from Action Alliance—I like to call them the Amersham- and the west coast main line, which is ridiculous. based Action Alliance—that came out today.The argument 307WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 308WH

[David Mowat] congestion in the south. The whole issue of Scotland needs to be sorted out, at least in relation to the north. that the benefits would accrue more significantly to the We have a plan—a business case—and we are beginning bigger city does not stand up to any kind of scrutiny. It to understand where the route will be. However, I also implies that the M6 and the M1 are bad because they fix want some assurance about when the route north of the north-south divide and I find that hard to believe. Birmingham will be set out, because we can then start I will not speak about the wider benefits of the to plan and to put in place the sort of local initiatives project other than to say that the chambers of commerce that we need to make the whole project work. in the north-west, Leeds and Scotland have come out Finally, on local initiatives, I was struck by evidence strongly in favour of these transformative—actually, that the north-west is a little different from Birmingham transformative is not a bad word—benefits. The impact in terms of shape. Manchester and Leeds sit at the on the north-west economy is calculated to be around bottom of the north-west, which has a much longer £10 billion and we need that. It is easy to unpick the shape, so connectivity matters much more, while business case by saying, “Actually, my town is not really Birmingham is more central to the west midlands. The on the route and it is not too good for my town because northern hub has been mentioned, as has the need for it we will have to do this and we will have to do that.” The to be clearly linked with the whole project. I completely truth is that we have to look at some of these decisions agree with that point, but I also agree with those who regionally. If £10 billion is injected into the north-west have said that we cannot just do nothing until everything economy, it is just not possible that that will not help is sorted. I am keen to hear assurances from the Minister Warrington, whether or not Warrington is on the spur. on those three points. I have three points for the Minister. One is about Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): May I remind hon. timing. Once we accept and buy into the transformation Members that if they have requested to speak via the benefits, there is an issue for the north-west in how the normal channels, but wish to speak at a certain point in Government are going about this. Broadly speaking, the debate, they should let the Chair know, so that they Birmingham and the west midlands will receive this can be listed accordingly? infrastructure, in which we all believe, about a decade sooner than Manchester and a further decade before 3.12 pm Scotland, which is not even on the map yet. Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I congratulate Mr Donohoe: Does that not back up the argument the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys that if this were to be a project that was about to begin, (Paul Maynard), and I hope that I will not test his rules it should start in Scotland and move south, as well as for us too much. I may mention the case for High from the south moving north? Speed 2, but I hope that he will forgive me. I shall do so David Mowat: There is certainly a case for not necessarily from a perspective that is different from that previously starting all the construction work in London and coming taken, so I hope that it will not trouble him. north. I do not know whether it should start in Scotland, I want to make two points. First, we sometimes forget Warrington or Manchester, but there is a case for going about connectivity in the north, although everyone both ways. Let me come back to this timing point. assumes that they know about north-south connectivity There could be a decade of benefits accruing to Birmingham now. Secondly, I want not only to consider northern in inward investment, and a decade of benefits accruing cities and to build on the comments of other Members, to the west midlands in better links. We are all guilty in but to look at bits of connectivity that are smaller but this debate of talking about links to London. It is about none the less truly important. I hope that the Minister links not to London but to the continent of Europe will answer my questions about those minor bits of through St Pancras. That decade is a worry. Given the transport connectivity in the north of England and in current fashion for bringing forward infrastructure projects Wales. and the fact that the business case for this project is It is worth dwelling for a moment on the problem that stronger than that of Crossrail, will the Minister tell us is regularly experienced by my constituents, many of why we are not taking the opportunity to start some of whom travel by train and are frequent users of the west the construction work in the north more quickly? That coast main line. The problem is not that they cannot get would take away the problem of the lost decade, which, to London quickly enough, because they can certainly without wishing to sound as if I lack confidence in our get to London quickly, although they have trouble project management abilities, can sometimes turn into a getting to other places fast enough; their problem is that lost decade and a half. Therefore, I am interested in they will probably not easily find somewhere to sit hearing what the Minister has to say about the timing of comfortably. That is a problem of capacity, not speed—I the project. can see hon. Members nodding, for which I thank We also need to pin down some of the existing them. Watching the media, I sometimes have the impression uncertainties, especially on the north-south dimension. that people think that congestion happens only in the I may be wrong, but I do not think that it has even been south, and that the north of England is a traffic-free accepted for certain that Piccadilly will be the final zone, where people always sit comfortably on trains. destination. That needs sorting out, as does the link to That is just not the case—if only it were. The west coast the airport. I do not want to become embroiled in the main line is very crowded. arguments about having a third London airport, but if I regularly meet business men in the Wirral and the we have a high-speed link between Manchester airport wider Merseyside area who wish to grow their businesses, and Heathrow—a journey of, for example, 60 or 70 minutes, but the problem is that their ability to do so is partly which would not be much slower than the journey to limited by their ability to travel. I must declare an Gatwick—I find it difficult to see how there will not be interest in that, in a previous life, I worked for two years some impact on, or some marginal benefit to airport for Network Rail, so I am not averse to discussing 309WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 310WH engineering. I know from my time there, as the Minister Alison McGovern: I could not have come up with a will also know, that we do not begin such projects by better example. Wrexham is a town I know well. Hon. asking ourselves what the biggest piece of infrastructure Members may not know that it is a fairly large industrial is that we can conceive of to solve the problem. We hub for the Deeside industrial area. Wrexham is a should try to do the straightforward things first, and it lynchpin, and so is Leeds, for business and legal services. is worth bearing that hierarchy in mind. The hon. Gentleman has lighted on a classic example. I The rail industry has struggled with problems of implore the Minister to keep the Wrexham to Leeds connectivity and congestion for many years. One solution example in her head, to remind her of the scale of the is to have longer trains and longer platforms, but the challenge in the north. west coast main line has a very limited ability to do that. I do not really like making north-south comparisons, Another solution is related to signalling and whether because the south has plenty of connectivity problems, more train paths can be fitted in, but that is again very I know; but the way London acts as the hub in the limited. I well remember—this is an important point—the middle of large spokes—that is not what we have in the impact of the west coast main line modernisation project north—creates some of the difficulties. on Liverpool, particularly when it was the capital of culture and that project was at its height. We are therefore Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I thank the out of options, which is why we are where we are and hon. Lady for giving way and congratulate my hon. why we are looking at High Speed 2. There is no Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys question but that it is needed. Business men in my (Paul Maynard) on obtaining this important and worthwhile constituency are desperate to travel around to grow debate. On connectivity, I am a Yorkshire MP and there their businesses. They ask me all the time about rail are two stations in my constituency on the Leeds- fares and about the congestion from which they suffer, Manchester line, Slaithwaite and Marsden. Already and we should always keep their perspective in mind. there are concerns, because of electrification and the To my mind, the case for High Speed 2 has been northern hub project, about the number of stopping made, although others may still question it, but we need services that will be available once the line is sped up. to consider other elements of rail in the north. I agree However, that is not necessarily a reason for us to be with hon. Members who have spoken about the value of wary, or to be anti-high-speed rail; it just highlights The Northern Way and asked whether some group other areas for investment in the rail network. I welcome might be convened to look at what projects are necessary the debate and what is being said. for the whole north of England. In my previous life working in the cultural sector, one of the hardest problems Alison McGovern: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his was building the cultural economy in the north of comments. He clarifies exactly my point: we should be England, where there are very important visitor destinations talking about what is necessary additional to High in Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle. The pathways Speed 2. between them are extremely difficult. Liverpool to Manchester is not too bad, although, given that they Rosie Cooper: My hon. Friend talked about connectivity are only 38 miles apart, the time it takes to travel generally and the fact that it takes quite a time to get between them is not good enough, but I hope that will from Liverpool to Manchester, which is a distance of be assisted by electrification. However, Liverpool and 38 miles. In this general discussion I would like to drive Newcastle, which are two extremely important visitor that further. For example, Skelmersdale does not have destinations for this country, are not well connected, a railway station at all, so in rail terms it could take and a future priority for the Government must be to for ever to get from Skelmersdale to Manchester, or look at that. Skelmersdale to Liverpool. Skelmersdale to Preston There is a huge amount of latent demand in our takes for ever. To go by road—by bus—from Skelmersdale economy that we should try to develop. That is true of to the local hospital in Southport takes one hour and not only the visitor economy, but other parts of the 23 minutes. I have done it. country’s economy, including the energy sector, which The hon. Gentleman talked about the Ormskirk bypass would be assisted by transport connectivity. At the end earlier. People can get up and down Lancashire, but not of the day, the transport economy is there to serve the across it. I fought and fought on that. rest of the productive economy. I might just add that I have been encouraged by the support shown for central Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. That is a speech, planning in this debate, albeit tempered by the need not an intervention. for localism, as was mentioned by the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys. Rosie Cooper: Sorry. Add to that the fact that there is A cross-north path is very important, not least to the no railway station, transport is poor and people cannot people of Yorkshire, who want much better connectivity use the roads either: it is impossible. We are not talking to Manchester and Liverpool. about big things. We cannot move.

Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): The hon. Lady is Alison McGovern: My hon. Friend’s intervention brings making a very good case for connectivity across the home why all the things we are discussing matter. When north. We have always said that High Speed 2 is not the I worked in the rail industry and spent a lot of time only solution and that we should create such connectivity. talking to engineers, I was constantly impressed by their Recently, I took the train from Wrexham to Leeds, abilities. However, sometimes I think that they forgot, a which took me four and a half hours, whereas people tiny bit, about the people. We should focus on articulating, going to London arrived in about two and a half hours. as my hon. Friend has just done, issues such as being Does that not make her point? able to get swiftly to hospital. For people who live in 311WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 312WH

[Alison McGovern] north, and the way to ensure the best possible connections between communities and the economies they want to Skelmersdale, having options in the current hard times work in. in the labour market, and being able to get swiftly to the employment centres of Manchester or Liverpool, is Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): The winding-up speeches crucial. We are not engaged in a dry discussion about will begin at exactly 20 to 4, so perhaps the remaining the best way to engineer a railway; the discussion matters two speakers will divide the time accordingly. to our constituents on a daily basis, and my hon. Friend made that point well. 3.27 pm Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Before coming into Parliament, I did a lot of travelling in my previous Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): It is job, in the north-west and in Yorkshire and the Humber. a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. Getting to places from Durham is not just a matter of I shall be brief to allow others time to contribute. I am arriving swiftly, or at all: it is a question of the pressure particularly pleased to have the opportunity to speak, being put on the roads. To go north-south from Durham, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Blackpool where I live, to Yorkshire, I used to travel by train. If I North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), my colleague on was going to Manchester, and had plenty of time or was the Transport Committee, on securing the debate. staying overnight, I went by train. If I wanted to get It is good to see that the subject is the impact of there in a hurry, or to go to Liverpool, I drove, adding high-speed rail in the north, rather than concerns about to the congestion on the motorways. We need to take its impact on particular constituencies. I am conscious that into account as well. that the debate about high-speed rail has so far been Alison McGovern: My hon. Friend is right. We should dominated by MPs with understandable concerns about not aim to design bits of railway across the north just the effect of HS2 on their constituencies and the lives of for fun, because it would be nice to have a bigger train their constituents. I would not decry any hon. Member set. We should consider the total impact of what we are for doing their job in representing the interests of their doing, not least on the economy, but also, as my hon. constituents. Any infrastructure project of this size will Friend said, on the environment. People’s stress levels cause a significant amount of disruption and heartache are also affected. People tell me that one of the great for the people it affects. things about the new west coast main line timetable is I have personal experience of the issue in my constituency, the fact that, because it is swifter, they arrive in a because of the difficulties with the Metrolink extensions, relaxed way. The performance of that bit of the network which the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton has largely been good, so they arrive ready to work in a (Graham Stringer) has mentioned. Constituents have relaxed way, which is what we want. understandable concerns about changes to the local I want to conclude by talking a little about Wales and infrastructure and the impact of those changes on their Cheshire. I hope that that will not test the definition of lives. I understand why some residents turn against the north too much. We sometimes wonder about Cheshire schemes that they support in principle, because of incidents and how far it qualifies as part of the north. Wrexham, in their area. That is why it is vital that the decisions as I mentioned in response to an intervention, is a that are made about the local environment and how it crucial place industrially. It links to the Deeside area will be protected are clear and transparent to the people where lots of businesses are located. Connectivity between most affected on the particular route. No doubt we will Wrexham and Liverpool is very poor. There is the have the same issue to contend with when there is more Wrexham to Bidston line, on which there is one service clarity about the exact routes through to the north of an hour—it is terrible, and I have raised it with Ministers England, once the decisions about those routes have before. We need electrification of that line and a much been made. better service at some point in future. It would be a The last time that I took part in a debate on high-speed massive help in getting people from north Wales to rail, it was timely because the Transport Committee was Liverpool airport. The line goes through areas of severe about to embark on its inquiry into high-speed rail. By deprivation, where we want to get people to work as coincidence, this debate comes the day after the Committee quickly as possible. took quite some time to discuss the draft report. After The hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) listening to all the arguments, both for and against, I was here earlier, and there are also issues to do with am even more convinced of the need to press ahead connectivity in the bit of Cheshire closest to the River with high-speed rail to the north and beyond. I have Mersey. It is astonishingly difficult to travel by rail always been a strong supporter of creating a high-speed through that part of the network. I hope that in planning rail network that connects not only Birmingham and for the coming of High Speed 2 we will look not just at the west midlands but the northern cities of Manchester the major towns that we need to connect but at all the and Leeds, and Scotland. There is clear evidence that a smaller elements of rail. The High Speed 2 project new network is required to cope with capacity demands enables local areas to consider some of the planning, in the future, which is the principal argument for supporting and work out what would best help them to make the high-speed rail to the north. most of High Speed 2. It is not just the major cities By pressing ahead with a high-speed rail network, we across the north but the smaller communities that need can ensure sufficient rail capacity for the foreseeable to be connected in, additionally, to the larger project. future. Some opponents of high-speed rail have argued The case is really made on the basis of capacity alone, that upgrading the existing main line networks would but we will not achieve the benefits that are possible deal with any capacity constraints, but that would only unless in the intervening years we focus on cities in the address the problem in the short term. Ultimately, at 313WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 314WH some point a high-speed rail network will be necessary. warmly welcomed the announcement in the Budget of For a change, we are considering long-term need rather funding for the Ordsall curve—or the Ordsall chord, or than short-term necessity. whatever people might want to call it. That project will Some £10 billion has already been spent on upgrading have a dramatic impact on capacity and journey times. the west coast main line, but on 1 March this year the The investment in high-speed rail must not come at the new chief executive of Network Rail made it clear that expense of investment in the existing rail network. the west coast main line would be at full capacity within Instead the two must go hand-in-hand to ensure that six to 10 years. In answering my question, he said that Manchester and the rest of the north of England reap “the West Coast line, within 10 years at the absolute maximum, the full benefits of high-speed rail. and probably six years, will be at capacity, and that is with additional carriages included in the area. We can look at other 3.35 pm tactical interventions in that line to put more capacity in there, but in the end it comes down to capacity: we will, across a number Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): of key parts of our network, run out of capacity.” Thank you, Ms Dorries, for squeezing me in at the end The chief executive of Network Rail is absolutely clear of the debate. It is a pleasure to serve under your that, even with extra costly improvements, the west chairmanship. I shall try to be brief. coast main line will not have enough capacity to deal I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool with growth in rail travel. We need the high-speed rail North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) and geographical network to accommodate future rail travel. co-partner in the Fylde area, who set the tone for the Competing services and franchises are already battling debate, which has been of a much higher standard than for space on the existing network. We in Manchester are previous debates on this topic. The cross-party nature lucky that we have three trains an hour to London—a of the debate today has been extremely successful. train every 20 minutes. Due to the success of that Having said that, I shall disagree with my hon. Friend franchise, Virgin wanted to extend the service to four in saying that we have already had high-speed rail in my trains an hour, but doing so would have adversely constituency. That involved the first west coast main affected both local and regional services, and so Virgin’s line in the 19th century, which went from Euston station plans were opposed locally. At every review of timetables, to the Euston hotel in Fleetwood, which was the end certain services lose out. As attempts are made to tweak of the west coast main line. The train ran at between the timetable to optimise capacity and services, local 30 mph and 50 mph—apparently it did not frighten the trains are always the losers. The creation of a high-speed cows, but it transformed Fleetwood. As the hon. Member rail network will release significant capacity on the for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) has said about the existing network, allowing the expansion of those regional railway in her constituency, that railway has now gone, and local services that are completely constrained at the although the line itself is still there. In fact, the Minister moment by the needs of longer-distance inter-city services. has actually stood on that empty railway line, which High-speed rail is about not only improving capacity, runs from Fleetwood to Poulton. One can see that the but economic benefits. The HS2 business case concluded decline of Fleetwood was matched by the decision to that phase one to the west midlands would generate end that railway. Perhaps if the 1928 yellow book on £20 billion in economic benefits, and the total benefits rail safety had been put into practice, we would not for the “y” network to Leeds and Manchester were have had that disaster. estimated at £44 billion, including an estimated £6 billion High Speed 2 will be transformative, but the line will in wider economic impacts. Geoffrey Piper, the chief go through my constituency, as is the case with other executive of the North West Business Leadership Team, hon. Members who have spoken today. The argument is has argued that HS2 is not between north and south, because there will be “vital for the long term prosperity of the region.” similar arguments in the north to those in the south The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys about exactly where the line should be. has rightly mentioned our visit as members of the Like the constituencies of the hon. Members for Transport Committee to France and Germany, where Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) and for Wirral there are clearly big differences in the economic benefits South (Alison McGovern), for my constituency this of high-speed rail between different areas. What is issue is about connectivity and releasing capacity. I certain, however, is that high-speed rail brings economic want to add to that something that has been mentioned benefits. in the past, particularly by the hon. Member for Blackley My only word of caution about high-speed rail relates and Broughton (Graham Stringer). If anybody remembers to the potential impact on investment in the classic the last time that the west coast main line was upgraded, railway network. The north of England is crying out for they will know that it took more than 10 years and investment in the rail network, and we are desperate to caused absolute chaos. Anybody who thinks that we see the announcement of funding for the northern hub can tinker any further with that line and produce any in the next control period. Opponents of high-speed rail extra capacity must take a serious look at the history sometimes argue that we should not proceed with the over the past 15 years. scheme because it will result in a lack of investment in I appear to be running out of time, so I will conclude the existing network as all the money is diverted into by welcoming what the Government have done already. paying for the high-speed network. That must not happen, I particularly support those hon. Members who have and I hope that the Minister can assure us that it will said that high-speed rail is not the key answer to the not happen. north-south divide, but it is a start. This issue is not The coalition Government have already shown a about a poor north and a rich south, because we have commitment to investing in rail infrastructure despite really successful businesses in the north, including BAE the difficult economic times. In Manchester, we all Systems, the nuclear industry and what is coming in the 315WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 316WH

[Eric Ollerenshaw] John Woodcock: The Minister knows that much progress was made in planning under the Labour Government. future, but it is about the national economy. For the It is critical to the area that the current Administration coalition Government and MPs alike, high-speed rail is finish the job we started and I hope that, in her reply, becoming the touchstone of the coalition Government’s she will expand on her attitude towards taking the commitment to do something about that divide between project in parts. the north and the south, which exists, and even more importantly about links to Scotland. I support the hon. Alison McGovern: Does my hon. Friend agree that it Member for Blackley and Broughton, who asked, “Why is slightly odd of the Minister to describe us as having did we not start the building from Glasgow and Edinburgh had 13 years to deliver the northern hub? The Labour down?” And I also hope that the hybrid Bill, which will party might have been in government for 13 years, but be introduced by the Minister, will mention not only much of the first half of that time was spent sorting out Birmingham but Manchester and Leeds, and hopefully the mess created by privatisation, and much of the Glasgow and Edinburgh, too. second half was about developing the kind of proposals that we have spent our afternoon talking about. 3.38 pm John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): John Woodcock: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Thank you, Ms Dorries. It is a pleasure to serve under She knows that we took forward high-speed rail and the your chairmanship. High Speed 2 project. We want the project completed by a future Labour Government. I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on Mrs Villiers: Does the hon. Gentleman recall that securing what has been an excellent debate, with worthwhile only a few years ago, in 2007, the then Labour Secretary contributions from all parties, including an interesting of State for Transport, Ruth Kelly, produced a White contribution it was from the hon. Gentleman himself. Paper that ruled out high-speed rail for 30 years? It was He made many good points. He also spoke about the the Conservatives who led the debate on high-speed need for an all-party consensus on this issue and today rail. he has spoken, if I may say so, like a one-man all-party consensus. He said that even today he has searched his soul and he remains a Conservative, and that is fine. John Woodcock: Let us see what the Minister says However, in bemoaning the loss of the regional development today about taking forward what are Labour’s proposals. agencies and the Northern Way, he is speaking like a I want to come on to why it is critical that she strengthen Labour Member. her commitment to the north of England.

Paul Maynard: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Eric Ollerenshaw: In the manner of the debate, it might help if northern Members of all political complexions John Woodcock: I will of course give way to the hon. could keep some consensus about the issue we are Gentleman, but before I do so I will just add that, in trying to debate. castigating his own Government, he is acting like a Liberal Democrat. John Woodcock: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am trying to set out the grounds for a Paul Maynard: For the avoidance of doubt, I am fully consensus. I might suggest that if people did not keep behind the decision to abolish the regional development intervening on me—[Interruption]––and disagreeing with agencies. me, I might be able to make more progress.

John Woodcock: If the hon. Gentleman says so, that David Mowat: Will the Shadow Minister give way? is fine. How he will get on with his colleagues after today I do not know, but whenever he puts forward John Woodcock: I will give way one more time and sensible proposals, we will work constructively with him then I really need to make some progress because I have to further shared objectives, if he is willing to do so. only 10 minutes. The hon. Gentleman made some important points about the northern hub, but Opposition Members believe David Mowat: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that it is important to guard against letting the Government Shadow Front-Benchers have been ambivalent about off and facilitating them by easing up on lobbying this issue over the past 18 months? The Evening Standard about delivering the project in parts and effectively recently stated that Labour had announced: leaving sections of the northern hub on the shelf. “a root and branch review of…transport policy with nothing ruled in or out,” The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Will the hon. Gentleman give including high-speed rail. Is that no longer the position? way? John Woodcock: I do not know whether the hon. John Woodcock: Of course. I welcome the Minister’s Gentleman has been in the House over the past couple contribution. of weeks for the important Back-Bench debate on high-speed rail, in which we set out with crystal clarity Mrs Villiers: The Labour Government had 13 years our support for the project. We were absolutely right to to deliver the northern hub but they did not do any of look at the project again in Opposition because it is a it. We have already committed to delivering a major major one and will require substantial and sustained plank of it—the Ordsall curve. investment. We have concluded that we will back the 317WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 318WH

Government, and try to strengthen their resolve when commitment now to the extension beyond Birmingham, we think they are not giving enough of a commitment would make the business case for HS2 stronger and to the north. private sector investment more likely and secure valuable political and business support across the north. Paul Maynard: I am sorry to have to intervene yet There has been no shortage of warm words from again. On Monday, the hon. Gentleman’s party announced Ministers in recent months, but we need a commitment support for a version of HS2 that would go through to one hybrid Bill. There is no need to delay getting Heathrow and up the M40, which was the model that spades into the ground on stage one if the Government the Conservative party proposed pre-election, so can he decide to re-consult and put the route to the north in confirm that he is not now supporting the Government the Bill. model? Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): I remind the hon. John Woodcock: The hon. Gentleman makes an Gentleman that the two Front-Bench speakers have a important point and I want to get on to it. I hope that I total of 20 minutes, so will he please make this his last can now get an opportunity to do so. minute? We believe that the north of England and Scotland, indeed the whole UK, deserve a proper commitment John Woodcock: Absolutely. I was in my final minute. from the Government to a new high-speed line running I hope that the Minister will make her commitment to right up to Manchester and Leeds. Many Members on the north clear, as it is currently under question. We both sides have made that point today, and I hope that know that we cannot start talking about detailed ticketing they will support us in agreeing that failure by the prices, but when will she agree to begin setting out the Government to legislate for that in one go leaves a funding model as it affects passengers? High-speed rail question mark over their commitment to jobs and growth that only the wealthiest people can afford will never in the north. We urge the Government to reconsider, deliver the full potential that communities across the and I hope that the Minister will come back having north richly deserve. done so. The first stage of High Speed 2, as far as Birmingham, is vital transport infrastructure. It relieves the already 3.50 pm mentioned congestion and overcapacity on the main line from Euston and cuts journey times to the west The Minister of State, Department for Transport midlands significantly. It provides new capacity to shift (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Thank you, Ms Dorries. It is a freight on to rail, and could provide—from the outset, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate Opposition Members hope—fast links to Heathrow my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and airport from across the country. On that point—as it Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on securing this debate. I am was raised—the Minister was quoted as saying that our sorry for my coughing fit during his speech; I was alternative suggestion was unhelpful. moved to tears not by emotion but by the flu. We have had a good debate—well informed, constructive in tone Given the strength of our support for the overall and cross-party—and I thank all hon. Members for scheme and the widespread unease about the current their contributions. route, which is shared by many Government Members, I hope that the Minister will make clear what she really On the points raised, the opponents of High Speed 2, thinks in her closing remarks. Does she recognise that who are thin on the ground today, claim that better, linking directly to Heathrow would strengthen the project faster transport between north and south will pull economic because it would be cheaper overall than building the activity into London and suck it out of regional cities. proposed route with a separate spur, it would increase That is defeatist and thoroughly misguided. As my hon. the opportunity to lever in private investment in a way Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) that the Old Oak Common proposal does not, and it pointed out in his usual incisive and informed manner, would generate a complementary benefit for Heathrow isolation is not the way to ensure that our northern by providing a rail substitute for short-haul flights, cities thrive. I have every confidence that bringing north thereby releasing capacity, and that it is therefore worthy and south closer together by shrinking journey times of serious consideration? will provide a major boost to growth in the north. That confidence is based on the evidence from our European The second stages of HS2 beyond the west midlands neighbours, which has been discussed in some detail. to Manchester and Leeds would provide benefits that dwarf those of the first stage. The hon. Member for It is not only places served directly by HS2 that will Blackpool North and Cleveleys does not like the word benefit from the project; so will many other towns and “transformative”, but this project could redraw the cities as trains run off it on to the existing network. economic geography of the UK and that is why there is From Preston and Liverpool in the west to York and such wide-ranging support for the stages beyond Newcastle in the east, journey times will be reduced and Birmingham, not only from Members, as demonstrated connectivity improved, and the economic boost will be today, but from business groups and local authorities felt across the north of England. across the north. Once completed, HS2 would bring Leeds and Manchester within 80 minutes of London Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): This debate and 96 minutes of Liverpool. In addition to the tens of has rightly focused on passenger traffic, but does my thousands of extra jobs, it would create new businesses, right hon. Friend agree that a spin-off benefit is that new investment, a modal shift from domestic air to rail, High Speed 2 will release capacity in the classic network more reliable journeys, more frequent trains and more for freight transport by rail, boosting all parts of the seats, and God knows we need that on the line. A clearer United Kingdom? 319WH High-Speed Rail2 NOVEMBER 2011 High-Speed Rail 320WH

Mrs Villiers: I agree thoroughly. I will come to that in However many times they are tweaked and repackaged, a moment. none of the alternatives proposed comes near to matching The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham the benefits that HS2 can offer. None can release the Stringer) has been influential not just today but in the capacity that is crucial, as my hon. Friend the Member general debate on the issue. On the route up to Scotland, for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) pointed out, to the Government are always open to working with the the Government’s high-speed rail strategy.On the contrary, Scottish Government on such proposals. Why did we the options favoured by opponents of HS2 would apply decide to start in the south rather than the north? As he major new pressures to timetables on our existing railways, will be aware, the rationale is that crowding is more fundamentally damaging reliability, as the hon. Members serious on the southern leg of the west coast line, but we for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) and for Manchester, are anxious to press ahead as quickly as possible. I Withington pointed out. They would also involve immense understand the frustration expressed by my hon. Friend disruption to the line during construction, as my hon. the Member for Warrington South about the pace of Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric delivery, but I emphasise, agreeing with the points made Ollerenshaw) discussed. by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton, that Turning to the points made by my hon. Friend the in order to make progress on the project as quickly as Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys, the Northern possible, we need to retain cross-party consensus. Way did effective work. Like him, I want local enterprise I welcome the assurances given by the Opposition in partnerships and local authorities to have more of a say the Back-Bench debate on the Floor of the House, but in transport decisions. I agree that it can be beneficial Labour’s decision to propose a new route after the for local authorities to come together to make joint consultation closed was odd. It strikes me as last-minute, decisions about travel to work areas, but we do not want and looks suspiciously like game playing. However, I such solutions to be imposed from above. They must be assure hon. Members that all route proposals submitted bottom-up and proposed by the areas concerned. Like by the 50,000 people who took part in the consultation him and the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton, will be considered thoroughly. I have great admiration for the work done in Manchester to deliver an integrated authority that considers transport John Woodcock: The Minister is being clear—well, issues across the board for a major travel to work area. specific—about the point “submitted to the consultation”. I assure the House that investing in HS2 does not Is she saying that our suggestion is being considered or mean that we will stop investing in and improving our not? current transport networks. We recognise fully the importance of continuing to enhance our existing network, Mrs Villiers: I am saying that all 50,000 responses particularly by improving links between northern cities, from the people who took the time to submit them not least because that is essential if we are to spread the before the consultation deadline will be thoroughly benefits of HS2. Despite the deficit, we are undertaking considered. the biggest programme of rail improvements since the We see phases 1 and 2 of the high-speed rail project Victorian era, many of which will benefit the north. to Manchester and Leeds as the starting point for Electrification will benefit Manchester, Liverpool, Wigan delivering a genuinely national network, but we should and Blackpool. The Ordsall chord project, which has not underestimate the benefits that Scotland will gain received the go-ahead 30 years after it was first proposed, from the proposed Y network even before high-speed will benefit Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle rail goes north of the border. Trains running off the and Hull. That is only phase 1 of the northern hub high-speed line to Scotland will cut journey times to project. Our commitment to it demonstrates how seriously about three and a half hours, producing major economic we view its importance and that we recognise the benefits and connectivity benefits for Scotland, tipping the balance that it can bring. We will assess it and consider carefully, in favour of rail rather than air and providing significant when deciding what improvements can be delivered in environmental benefits as people switch from planes to the next rail control period, whether we can deliver the trains. whole programme. We are not pursuing HS2 just because of the positive The intercity express programme will create new economic benefits. The case for high-speed rail rests on jobs in the north and a brand-new fleet of trains. New the pressing need to prevent big problems that would Pendolino carriages will be delivered on the west coast otherwise be heading down the track towards us. The in the next few months. Manchester’s Metrolink extension demand for inter-city transport capacity is growing is going ahead, and just a few days ago, Burnley and strongly. If we sit back and fail to deal with the capacity Accrington residents welcomed the fact that funding time bomb set to explode within the next 10 to 20 years, had finally been secured for the Todmorden curve. We we will do lasting damage to our economy. As the hon. are committed to continuing strong investment in the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) pithily north of England to help its economy grow, complementing put it, in the end, it comes down to capacity. If we do the benefits that will be brought by high-speed rail. nothing, our key transport arteries will clog up, choking growth and destroying jobs in the north and elsewhere. In conclusion, the HS2 consultation received more It is neither viable nor responsible to sit back, do than 50,000 responses, every one of which will be used nothing and hope for the best, as other Governments to inform the Government’s forthcoming decisions on have done in the face of similar problems. HS2 is not high-speed rail. I welcome the valuable contributions about shaving time off the journey between London made in this debate. and Birmingham; it is about delivering the transport capacity between our cities that is essential if our economy Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Will Members please is to thrive in future. leave the Chamber quickly and quietly? 321WH 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Loft Conversions 322WH

Loft Conversions builders such as Mr Robin Kiddle, whatever name he trades under—he is listed as being associated with two 4pm other dissolved companies—I have to tell him that they are not effective. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Although I welcome In summary, my constituent and her partner dispensed the fact that the Under-Secretary of State for Business, with Cavendish Conversions Ltd after a litany of criticisms Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for and complaints about the poor and unsafe work carried Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), will respond to the out on their semi-detached house in Colchester. Detailed debate, it could equally have been replied to by a Minister records kept by Ms Handley—the box file that I have from the Department for Communities and Local with me today are just my records of this appalling Government. The account that I am about to give failure of fairness and justice to my constituent—list a relates not only to the responsibilities of the Department catalogue of failures that bring shame on those responsible for Business, Innovation and Skills—from the perspective for the shoddy workmanship, and for providing protection of consumer protection, company regulation and good to the consumer. business practice—but to those of DCLG in relation to building control and inspection. In March 2005, Ms Handley made her first complaint to the Federation of Master Builders. Perhaps if it had Both Departments have responsibilities for tackling acted then, we would not today be hearing of nearly cowboy builders, which in this case involves companies seven years of failure of the system that we are told is associated with a Mr Robin Kiddle. He once had a there to assist consumers and protect them from cowboy company called Cavendish Conversions Ltd, but it is builders. In June 2005, she made a formal complaint to now “In Liquidation”, as stated on the credit check the FMB. Much correspondence has followed, including website, company-director-check.co.uk. Mr Kiddle then lots of letters sent on her behalf to the FMB and others. formed a new company called Cavendish Loft Conversions I have also tabled parliamentary questions and written Ltd, in what I say was a cunning and despicable way to to Ministers in both this and the previous Government. avoid paying my constituent, Ms Lisa Handley, when she successfully sued his former company. Ms Handley had requested money for remedial works. By then, Mr Kiddle had set up another company, Alas for Ms Handley, the judgment was against virtually identical in name but with the word “Loft” Cavendish Conversions Ltd, not Mr Robin Kiddle. He inserted between “Cavendish” and “Conversion”. The emerged, phoenix-like, from the ashes of that company original company was liquidated—how convenient! I to appear as owner of a company with a very similar submit that this was a deliberate move by Mr Kiddle to name, with the insertion of the word “Loft” into the ensure that my constituent would not be able to extract title. With one leap, he was free of the winding-up any money from him, because her legal action was petition that was granted in August 2006, having been against the company, not him as an individual. It is my advertised in the London Gazette in June of that year. contention that that move could in itself represent He simply carried on trading in his new guise. fraudulent behaviour in breach of the Fraud Act 2006. There were insufficient funds in the liquidated company Essex police have so far declined to take the matter to pay what Ms Handley was entitled to from the forward. As a result of today’s debate, I shall be drawing winding-up. She estimates that, thanks to the shambolic the matter to the personal attention of the chief constable, cowboy building work of Mr Kiddle’s company, she is to request that it be investigated at the highest level. now some £90,000 the poorer, and her home is now Where is the Federation of Master Builders in all unsaleable other than at a huge loss. In its current state, this? Cavendish Conversions Ltd was a member of the no mortgage company would make a loan. FMB, but the FMB proved more of an obstacle than a I am no building expert, but I have visited my constituent’s help to Ms Handley when she sought its support. Although home and I was appalled at what I saw. Even I could I had hitherto always thought highly of the FMB—in recognise that invading the loft space of the adjoining many respects, I still do—I have to say that its dealings semi-detached house is a serious matter, and something in this particular case did not constitute its finest hour. that any self-respecting builder would not do. That also To put it bluntly, the FMB proved to be more a defender brings into question the laxity of the inspection system, of its rogue member than a help to the aggrieved which should be there to protect consumers. More of consumer. The culpability of the FMB is obvious. As that later, for that is another area where systems designed Ms Handley told me, referring to what happened in July to protect consumers have failed in spectacular fashion. 2007 when the regional complaints committee hearing This unhappy saga dates back to October 2004, when took place, Ms Handley and her partner approached Cavendish “They found no fault with Kiddle or his workmanship or the Conversions Ltd about a loft conversion. The agreed fact that he had lied and deceived the FMB; and they condoned price was £24,750—originally £28,576—on the proviso his conduct.” that £7,000 was paid in cash. Drawings were completed Ms Handley is a fighter, not a quitter. She took on by someone trading as MR Designs, and submitted to the FMB with such effect that it eventually felt obliged Colchester borough council. Work commenced in March to strip Mr Kiddle’s new company, Cavendish Loft 2005. Conversions Ltd, of membership of the FMB. Perhaps Seven years have elapsed since Ms Handley first this shut the stable door after the horse had bolted, but approached the loft conversion company; that is a longer it is hoped that it will ensure that others thinking of period than the second world war, but in this battle my engaging the company in future will notice that it is not constituent has been abandoned and let down by all recognised by the FMB. those whom consumers are led to believe are there to What is extraordinary is that the FMB awarded protect them. If the Minister tells me that there are membership to the new company in clear breach of its statutory measures to protect consumers from cowboy own rules, which state that a company has to be in 323WH Loft Conversions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Loft Conversions 324WH

[Bob Russell] Kiddle is the same: Normans Corner, 41 Church lane, Fulbourn, Cambridge. I believe that Mr Robin Kiddle existence for three years before membership can be lives in Braintree, Essex. considered. In effect, it simply allowed Mr Kiddle to Mr Robin Kiddle is confused about how many years switch membership from a liquidated company, against he has been engaged in the building trade. When I which there was clear evidence of poor and unsafe checked his websites this morning, I read on one: work, to a new company. Interestingly, both the liquidated “we are a family run business with over 20 years experience”. company and the new company were given the same However, on another site, the business is said to be a FMB membership number—12901. We can make of “family firm with over 15 years experience.” that what we will, but I contend that, if the FMB regarded them as the same entity, they should have Both are clearly misleading statements, because the compensated my constituent, not abandoned her. company has only been in operation for six years. The registration date for Cavendish Loft Conversions Ms Handley asked me: Ltd is 31 August 2005. That is significant. The company “Are the FMB fit to be a TrustMark approved scheme operator was established after the serious problems with the when they are willing to give such a highly regarded status to a work on Ms Handley’s house emerged, but before legal cowboy builder?” proceedings were concluded. Cavendish Lofts Ltd, run Mr Kiddle’s original company was in clear breach of by Mr Eric Anthony Kiddle, was registered on 16 August both the Federation of Master Builders code of practice 2004. His company states that he is a member of the and the Government-endorsed TrustMark standards. Federation of Master Builders and An attempt by Ms Handley to involve TrustMark in “the new MasterBond and EBC”, spring 2006 did not make any significant progress. After whatever those are. No such claim is made by Mr Robin this debate, I hope that the Minister will instruct his Kiddle in respect of his company but, remember, he had officials to investigate the body that had responsibility been stripped of his FMB accreditation. Although the for TrustMark, because it is clear to me that its inept brothers operate identical businesses—albeit with different performance was a further example of those in the names—from the same address, it is the actions of building industry who have a responsibility—so we are Mr Robin Kiddle that are central to my debate. told—to protect the interests of consumers backing the I now come to another organisation that is supposed builder, despite the clear and justified complaint made to protect consumers: the Construction Industry Council. by my constituent. I ask the Minister: who regulates In the case of my constituent, the CIC’s performance is those who have responsibility for allegedly looking after just as bad as the FMB’s. The CIC seems more interested the interests of aggrieved consumers? Clearly, the current in protecting the approved inspector, Mr Ron Hilsden, arrangements are not working. who is trading as RH Building Consultancy, based in Essex trading standards was contacted in March Cherry Hinton, Cambridge. Mr Hilsden seems to have 2008. Sadly, it was not able to help bring about a failed to notice the shoddy workmanship of Cavendish resolution to the situation relating to Mr Kiddle and his Conversions Ltd during inspections of my constituent’s performance. The Health and Safety Executive was also home. It is in the paperwork associated with those consulted, but a blank was drawn there as well. In inspections that Ms Handley’s signature was forged. December 2008, Mr Kiddle was required, under section That paperwork consists of the initial notice submitted 235 of the Insolvency Act 1986, to be subject to an oral by RH Building Consultancy to the building control examination. Again, it did not produce a satisfactory service of Colchester borough council with a signature, outcome. Ms Handley told me: presumably that of Mr Hilsden, dated 14 February 2005, and the forged signature of Ms Handley, dated “Kiddle told a pack of lies—he committed perjury.” 11 February. I am not sure who appointed the approved A year later, there was a further court hearing. I shall inspector, but I wonder if it is perhaps more than a return later to aspects relating to a letter that Ms coincidence that RH Building Consultancy and Mr Kiddle’s Handley wrote on 25 February 2010 to Lord McKenzie, company are both based in the Cambridge area. who was, seemingly, then the relevant Minister, in which On 14 December 2009, I wrote to Lord Mandelson, she said: who was Secretary of State for Business, Innovation “I possess factual, documented evidence of fraud, abuse of and Skills at the time, and told him: power, misrepresentation, corruption and perverting the course “It now transpires that crucial documentation includes a forged of justice.” signature in the name of my constituent. Despite this, the building industry’s regulators have been unable to assist her. They have I can vouch for the fact that her signature was forged on been shown to be useless in defending the consumer—it is time one document relating to the so-called inspection process, for the Government to intervene!” but more on that later. There is further evidence relating to the activities of To confuse matters a little further, in addition to the Mr Hilsden that perhaps should be the subject of an two companies with the name “Cavendish” that are independent investigation—not one carried out by the associated with Mr Robin Kiddle, there is a third company CIC, whose performance in this matter falls well short with the word “Cavendish” in its title. This is Cavendish of giving my constituent and me any confidence. For Lofts Ltd, which is not to be confused with either example, it failed to address matters relating to the Cavendish Loft Conversions Ltd or the liquidated Building Act 1984. There is a serious suggestion that Cavendish Conversions Ltd. By an amazing coincidence, offences have been committed, and Ms Handley is Cavendish Lofts Ltd is owned by a Mr Eric Anthony prepared to give evidence in support of that contention. Kiddle, who I believe is the brother of Mr Robin There is obviously a lot of detail associated with what Kiddle. By an even greater amazing coincidence, the has transpired over the past seven years that time does registered address of the companies run by the brothers not permit me to mention. That said, my constituent is 325WH Loft Conversions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Loft Conversions 326WH prepared to make herself available—I am prepared to complacent and that he will recognise that we are trying make myself available, too—to any investigatory body to develop the strengths of the existing system and to that the Minister feels should look into the whole improve it where we can. situation. Clearly things have gone seriously wrong with My hon. Friend knows that loft conversion work the way that Mr Robin Kiddle has been operating his comes under general consumer legislation covering the separate loft conversion companies with confusingly construction industry. He also knows what an important similar names. The following matters need consideration: role the construction industry plays in our economy the manner in which he has avoided paying to put right and how many of the business people in that sector are the appalling shoddy work carried out at my constituent’s honest traders who do a fantastic job, many of whom home; the prospect of the police being called in to have small businesses. He has given an example of a review the manner in which the first company went into builder who appears to have been trading in a dishonest liquidation; and the abject failure of the bodies with manner. Obviously, I will need to look at the details of responsibility for protecting consumers. In the case of the case before I can comment further, but we are aware Ms Handley, those bodies have not done the job that that a small minority of builders apply their trade in a they are supposed to do. dishonest way and deliberately target specific groups of As Ms Handley said in a heartfelt letter that she consumers—for example, vulnerable consumers and the wrote to the then Prime Minister on 15 November 2009: elderly—and we therefore need protections. “I am a victim of a rogue builder, a corrupt approved inspector and an even more corrupt system operating under the guise of Bob Russell: I point out that Ms Handley is a very offering quality workmanship and consumer protection when articulate person and is not a vulnerable person. I am nothing could be further from the truth”. concerned that she could be duped in that way. What Later in her letter, she told the Prime Minister: the Minister says is right, but if a very articulate person “I have been the victim of fraud, corruption, blatant cover-ups can be duped, we are talking about serious issues. and perverting the cause of justice from the builder through to central Government. Why are my human rights, as a private Mr Davey: From the way in which my hon. Friend citizen of this country, being so easily dismissed? Why are laws on has articulated his constituent’s case, it is clear that his the statute books being so easily flouted and ignored? And why constituent is a very capable lady who can fight her are senior officials within the Construction Industry Council getting away with allowing their members to break the law whilst corner. However, I am sure that he accepts the point they go to any lengths to cover it all up?” that we need to ensure that vulnerable consumers are protected in the regimes that we design, because if can Minister, I trust that today’s debate is not the end of protect vulnerable consumers, we are much more likely the matter. Serious issues have been exposed in what I also to support those who are more articulate. have said this afternoon. They need to be seriously investigated. My constituent Ms Handley and I are We must take a multi-pronged approach to protecting available to help with such an investigation. consumers in the broadest sense. The new Government have taken an approach that seeks to empower the consumer and make sure that they have all the relevant 4.15 pm assistance from organisations to get the right information, so that they can make the right choices. The matter The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, cannot simply rest there. We must have a legislative Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I thank my framework, which, of course, there is. The question is hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) whether that framework can be reformed. We currently for bringing this matter to the House and securing the have the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, which debate. It certainly gives me a chance to put on the requires traders to provide the services being offered record our view about consumer protections. Clearly, he with reasonable care and skill, in a timely manner will be aware that I am not au fait with all the details of and at a reasonable cost. However, the Government his constituent’s case. The record will show that my are examining how that law might be modernised hon. Friend has referred to his box file, which could no and simplified, so that consumers can have a clearer doubt add to my weekend reading. However, I would understanding of their rights and a greater awareness of welcome his writing to me with a summary of the their right to redress when they have experienced shoddy proposals, possibly providing a bit more detail than he workmanship or have paid for goods that turn out to be has had time to do today. Although I cannot say that defective. there will be a formal investigation, I will at least look at On 19 September, I announced that, subject to the matter with my officials and provide him with some consultation, we hope to introduce a consumer bill of comments that I hope he and his constituent will find rights, which will bring together 12 separate pieces helpful. I will take a dispassionate but constructive of legislation to try to achieve those objectives. The approach to the problems that he has raised. 1982 Act is accompanied by other measures to protect Like him, I have constituents who have had problems consumers from unfair selling in their homes. Builders, with, shall we say, cowboy builders, who disappear and including those undertaking loft conversions, fall within are difficult to trace or who reappear in a different their scope. The Cancellation of Contracts made in a form. The Secretary of State has raised the matter in the Consumer’s Home or Place of Work etc. Regulations past, and we are therefore minded to consider what can 2008 give consumers the right to cancel a contract that be done in terms of consumer legislation and the consumer they have signed without penalty within seven days. framework. My hon. Friend recognises that no law or That cooling-off period is a valuable protection. It may framework can deal with absolutely every single well not have applied in the case presented by my hon. circumstance, but we clearly need to improve things. I Friend, but he will understand that it is an important hope that he will not take what I will say today as being part of the protection framework. 327WH Loft Conversions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Loft Conversions 328WH

[Mr Davey] As I do not know the details of my hon. Friend’s case, it is difficult for me to comment further, or indeed pass In addition to empowering consumers and having a any judgment, on what has happened. However, that is legislative framework of consumer protections, there why I started my remarks by inviting him to write to me are enforcement bodies. It is important to ensure that with a synopsis of the case to see how it could potentially enforcers, such as the Office for Fair Trading and local have been dealt with in a different and more successful authority trading standards officers, have the right tools way. at their disposal to deal with dodgy builders. The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations—known In the remaining time left to me, I want to touch on as the CPRs to those, such as myself, who write lots of TrustMark, which my hon. Friend mentioned in his letters about them—give enforcement bodies more effective speech. It is sometimes difficult for consumers to know means of tackling unscrupulous practices and rogue whether a builder is entirely genuine and can be trusted. traders. That was a welcome reform introduced by the For extra peace of mind when people are looking for previous Government. CPRs can be used to ban traders tradespeople, the TrustMark scheme has been developed in any sector from unfair commercial practices against as a form of accreditation. It is a fairly easy way for consumers, particularly in relation to the sale and marketing consumers to identify a builder who has agreed to abide of services. The regulations also ban any commercial by industry standards for competence and fair trading, practices that use harassment, coercion or undue influence and to be independently inspected to ensure that they that is likely to impair significantly the average consumer’s are meeting these standards. freedom of choice in relation to goods or services. In his case, my hon. Friend explained how the Federation Taking those various measures together, there is a of Master Builders, which I assume—I am not absolutely robust legislative framework. However, I have indicated sure from his remarks—was accredited by the TrustMark that we want to reform it, because it is clearly not scheme in this case, appears, from the remarks that he perfect. We also support a project being undertaken has made, not to have taken the action that he and his jointly by the Law Commission and the Scottish Law constituent wanted it to take. Again, one needs to look Commission, which is examining how private law might at the detail before making a judgment on exactly what be reformed to provide consumers with a simple, clear happened. However, TrustMark scheme operators, such right of redress where they are the victims of misleading as the FMB, are required to investigate complaints or aggressive selling. We have also given funding this against tradespeople and can de-list traders where it is year worth £3.2 million to scambuster teams, so that found that traders are not up to the required standard. they can continue the fight against rogue traders. We In many cases, TrustMark can carry out that role in maintain their funding, despite the difficult financial addition to other schemes, such as the competent persons circumstances, because we want to chase these rogues scheme and those operated by other trade bodies. It is, down. therefore, an important body in the building industry. Bob Russell: That is all very well. This situation involved a company knowing that it was going to be I do not know about the involvement of TrustMark taken to the cleaners and going into liquidation, and the and whether it investigated how the FMB dealt with the owners starting up another company and carrying on as complaint. That is one of the reasons why I invited my if nothing had happened. Where is the legislation to hon. Friend to write to me, so that we can have a look at deal with that? the details of his case. Clearly, the TrustMark scheme, which I think is valued and highly thought of by many Mr Davey: There is legislation, and the Insolvency people, needs to ensure that, if cases are brought to its Service, for which I am the Minister responsible, can attention, they are dealt with in a proper fashion, which take action in certain circumstances. One reason why I is the way forward. The TrustMark scheme has an invited my hon. Friend to write to me is to consider important role to play, and it is therefore important to what action could have been taken in that case. The ensure that it retains the confidence of consumers and Insolvency Service targets cases of misconduct or criminality those in the industry. and submits reports to the court for disqualification of directors for terms of various years based on the seriousness I hope my hon. Friend feels that I have dealt with his of the offence. I had a case in my constituency that was case. I have given him the chance to contact me personally, not dissimilar to my hon. Friend’s, and that was the and he has given me the chance to describe the overall route that we were advised to go down. system that is in operation to support consumers. 329WH 2 NOVEMBER 2011 Carbon Monoxide Poisoning 330WH

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning living in rented accommodation suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning. Yet that regulation does not apply to ordinary people’s homes. 4.27 pm We are keen on warm zones and green zones and all the good things we do to insulate our homes, such as Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): It having double or triple glazing, cavity wall insulation is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. and thicker stuff in our lofts or attics, to make our little I feel privileged to be able to introduce a debate on the domestic idylls warm and cheap to heat. At the same Government’s policy on preventing carbon monoxide time, however, we block out all the draughts and incoming poisoning. fresh air which, often, saved us from carbon monoxide I think you will agree, Ms Dorries, that many of the poisoning in the old days. Both this Government and best campaigns in this House derive from constituency the previous one had programmes to improve people’s experience and the constituents who come to us with ability to keep warm at low cost, but at the same time particular problems. About 10 years ago, a little boy, we added to the danger because less fresh air was Dominic Rodgers, was found dead in bed by his mum, coming in. This week in London—they are still in the Stacey Rodgers. He had died from carbon monoxide city I think—we had a wonderful couple, Ken and poisoning. He was 10 years of age. He had been killed Kimberly Hansen, whose young daughter of 17 died of by a faulty boiler in a house next door—the gas had carbon monoxide poisoning two years ago when she leaked across from one premises to the next. At that was at a sleepover at a friend’s house. Ken and Kimberly time, I promised that young lady that I would never give are from Buffalo, in up-state New York, which gets very up campaigning against unnecessary deaths by carbon cold in winter. As our winters get colder, we will have monoxide. the same problem, with people again trying to keep Over the years, through the all-party parliamentary warm and cut down energy bills but not venting through gas safety group and in other ways, we have had a chimneys any more, so when it gets cold they block off constant campaign to try to reduce the number of that bit of air that seems to cause a draught in the deaths and serious injuries from carbon monoxide apartment or house and then, of course, the carbon poisoning. Many people do not realise how prevalent monoxide kills. they are. The group has just had a major inquiry, Deaths can also be caused when people to whom we chaired by Baroness Finlay. The latest statistics found in refer, probably disrespectfully, as “cowboys” are not evidence that, every year, approximately 4,000 people properly licensed to attend to gas appliances in the are diagnosed by accident and emergency departments home such as boilers and other vectors. as having been poisoned by carbon monoxide. If they We are considering not only gas but solid fuel, such were poisoned by carbon monoxide, that means that as wood burning stoves or barbecues. My next-door they could have died from it. neighbour the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason I was talking to a casualty surgeon this week, at the McCartney) will be saying something about barbecues, launch of the Baroness’s report. Simon Clarke, an accident because he lost a constituent who used a barbecue on a and emergency consultant from Frimley Park hospital, camping holiday only this year. All forms of gas—propane, said that the other week he had a young woman come in bottled gas, liquefied petroleum gas—kill people as who was not dead but severely affected by carbon well, with approximately 50 deaths a year from all monoxide. The two budgerigars in the house, however, sources, of 4,000 reported cases in A and E. were dead. Interestingly, I read a recent report that If people go on holiday—to France—they should people do not keep budgies and canaries much these take a portable gas detector. I do not have a portable days—except in this case. The old use of the canary in one with me, but one for the home, which is still quite the mine was to prevent the miners from being trapped small. In France, there were 200 deaths last year from by rising carbon monoxide. those little gas heaters that the French are so fond of in Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real problem their bathrooms and kitchens. An early-day motion that we face in this country. Many people do not tabled by the all-party group, appropriately in July, was recognise it because it is a silent killer—carbon monoxide intended to make people aware of what was happening. is odourless and we cannot tell when it is around. The Carbon monoxide poisoning is a great danger to our poisoning symptoms are tricky, and people might feel constituents. What we really want is regular servicing by that they have a heavy cold or the flu. They might properly trained engineers, and that annual check in all present themselves to their GP or even to A and E, but homes if we can have it. If we cannot have that, in the be sent home to the very environment that can kill short term, we really need a detector in every home—such because the symptoms are not recognised. We need a detectors are cheap. I sometimes ask the financial and fully trained work force carrying out regular inspections insurance community why on earth a home insurance in rented and owned property in this country. policy would be given without a detector in the home. When I started campaigning, the real problem was The detectors can cost as little as £15 to £25, and they student accommodation, particularly if not very good should be given to everyone who buys a home insurance landlords had not inspected the gas appliances, which policy or gets a mortgage. Forty-five thousand people a became neglected and ceased to work properly. Time month in the spring and summer change their house, so and again, we read of tragedies involving students why does a detector not go into a house every time one dying of carbon monoxide poisoning. The regulations changes hands? I would like dual use with a smoke were changed, and landlords now have to inspect their alarm, but a detector alone would be a great lifesaver. property annually and have the appliances in such We have run the campaign for 10 years and I have accommodation checked every year. What a fantastic become very intolerant of the slow approach. We want lifesaver! We now rarely hear of students or people the detectors in the short term—now. 331WH Carbon Monoxide Poisoning2 NOVEMBER 2011 Carbon Monoxide Poisoning 332WH

[Mr Barry Sheerman] Her partner was also poisoned. He is still on sick leave after nearly losing an arm due to poisoning, and his Tomorrow, with my colleagues and on an all-party kidney was damaged as well. basis, I shall promote a symbolic Bill, which privately I Even when people are aware of the dangers of carbon call Dominic’s Bill after the little boy who died in my monoxide, they often associate them with appliances in constituency, to demand a carbon monoxide detector in the home and are unaware of the deadly carbon monoxide every home in the United Kingdom. That would save us that barbecues can produce. Portable barbecues and from many deaths and many cases of poisoning through charcoal packaging usually include a warning not to carbon monoxide. I have to tell you, Ms Dorries—I burn a barbecue indoors, but most do not give an know of your interest in health—that even cutting explanation why. People may believe that it is due to the down long-term exposure that is not fatal would be a risk of fire, but they may not be aware of the deadly risk great breakthrough, because all the research shows that of carbon monoxide poisoning. A clear, meaningful any exposure to carbon monoxide influences health and warning would help draw the consumer’s attention to ability to function and can damage brain function. the potential hazard. I do not want to detain the Chamber, except to say I will finish my contribution to this important debate that the campaign came from constituents and from a by asking the Minister whether he agrees that retailers brave young woman, Stacey Rodgers, who instead of selling barbecues for boating or camping have a duty to turning in on herself and destroying herself as many of warn customers of the dangers of carbon monoxide. our constituents do when they have a tragic loss, started Will he help us and the all-party group on gas safety to campaigning, as did that American couple. She has promote the use of carbon monoxide alarms at the been campaigning for 10 years, going into schools and point of sale of barbecues? doing something; there is no one better than her at 4.41 pm explaining to young people the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling): It is a pleasure to serve under In a sense, we have reached a day of celebration, in your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I start by paying tribute that the “Preventing Carbon Monoxide Poisoning”report to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) came out on Monday, and Baroness Finlay should be and my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley given all the credit for it, although there was also the (Jason McCartney) for the work that they and the work of the people who gave evidence. The Minister all-party group have done. The commitment that the had input into the report, so he must pretty much group has shown, both in producing the report and in approve of the 17 recommendations and I hope that he raising awareness of the dangers, is enormously valuable. will take them on board. I also hope that he will look at our Bill. Let us get some action. Let us cut the deaths As the hon. Member for Huddersfield said, this is an and the exposure to carbon monoxide, and let us do area where MPs working away over a period of time can something practical for the short and the long term for genuinely influence change, as they clearly have done our constituents. already. On a personal note, the first thing I did after visiting the all-party group last year was buy a carbon monoxide alarm, so I echo his comments about the Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): May I check with desirability of doing that. I am sympathetic to the Mr Sheerman and the Minister that it is okay for comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mr McCartney to speak—you have cleared it? Colne Valley about retailers, and my officials and I will look at what options are available to us. Mr Sheerman: We agree to that—we plotted beforehand. We are very much aware of the threat that carbon monoxide poisoning can pose to people in their own 4.38 pm homes, and of the devastating impact it has on people’s lives when things go wrong. Both Members spoke movingly Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure about the terrible consequences of getting this wrong, to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. Thank and about the twin tragedies in their constituencies. I you for allowing me to speak in this important debate suspect that we would find similar tragedies in constituencies about a topic that involves saving lives. I pay credit and up and down the country. It is a tragic waste, often of a honour to my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield very young life, when such tragedies occur. That is why (Mr Sheerman), whose constituency adjoins mine and we are committed to supporting a range of measures who is co-chairman of the all-party gas safety group. taken by industry, health care professionals and others We have both, tragically, had the deaths of constituents to prevent such tragic incidents occurring. That includes from carbon monoxide poisoning, the most recent occurring ensuring that we have appropriate regulation. I am not only this summer. always a great fan of regulation, but regulations to A number of carbon monoxide incidents in the country ensure that we have properly trained gas engineers are and throughout Europe were caused by the inappropriate entirely appropriate, as is raising public awareness of use of barbecues. Barbecues were used in tents or under the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning and working awnings, which perhaps seems practical when it is raining, to improve early diagnosis of the symptoms. We wish to but people were not aware of the carbon monoxide see that built into the training for any professionals. implications. The result was tragic for Hazel Woodhams There is a well-established, strong regulatory environment from Slaithwaite in my constituency near Huddersfield. in relation to gas safety and exposure to carbon monoxide. She was on a camping holiday in Norfolk when she It is a legal requirement that installation and maintenance died. The charcoal barbecue that had been used to cook of gas appliances be undertaken only by a suitably on had filled the tent with carbon monoxide overnight—it qualified and Gas Safe Register engineer. There are also had been brought inside the tent to keep it dry overnight. legal requirements placed on landlords to ensure that 333WH Carbon Monoxide Poisoning2 NOVEMBER 2011 Carbon Monoxide Poisoning 334WH they exercise a duty of care over their tenants. That is job is not operating in an unregulated environment. It is absolutely right. An annual check of gas fittings and certainly not sensible to hire cowboys, as the hon. appliances is required, and appliances must be maintained Member for Huddersfield rightly pointed out. in a suitable manner. Those measures are important in Of course, as we have heard today, and as we see in providing protection for the public. When they have the report, there is a big challenge to get the message their boiler fitted or checked, they can be assured that it out. One of the report’s contributions was to underline is done by a competent and properly trained professional. again the nature of the challenge in building awareness If that does not happen, the consequences can be of the issue. We have made good progress with smoke devastating for the lives or welfare of individuals and alarms, but we have much further to go with carbon families, as we know from too many bitter experiences. monoxide alarms. Mr Sheerman: It should be on the record that we do Mr Sheerman: It is worrying; we have smoke alarms have a system. Unlike New York state—we were talking in 85% of homes, but the figure for carbon monoxide about comparisons only this week—we have a regulatory detectors is still languishing at 18% or 19%, which framework, which is delivered by the Gas Safe Register. causes serious concern. However, the Minister is aware of how many cowboys are out there. They are not registered; they do work on Chris Grayling: It does, and that is why the work done the side, and they do it very badly. We must be aware of by the Gas Safe Register organisation is tremendously the many who hire such people. important. We have given it the task, as did the previous Government, of running communication campaigns Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman is correct. We and undertaking other activities to encourage the use of have shifted the Health and Safety Executive’s focus its services to raise awareness of the dangers. There have away from monitoring low-risk, unproblematic business been major campaigns targeting particularly vulnerable areas so that it can concentrate more of its efforts on groups, and we recently had the first gas safety week. the rogues out there in a whole variety of sectors. Our Also, there are other influences. The hon. Gentleman regulatory regimes should focus on the people who act will have seen the recent “EastEnders” storyline relating as cowboys, as the hon. Gentleman says, not simply in to carbon monoxide poisoning. If we can get that kind one area but in a variety of areas. That is where we must of media penetration into the public consciousness, we make a difference. have a real chance of building awareness in a way that Governments struggle to do. Something that people see Gas Safe Register operates the statutory registration in a soap opera on a Tuesday night has much more scheme for gas engineers. There is now a good kitemarked impact. list of registered engineers. We have the highest ever total of people—more than 130,000—now on the list. It Mr Sheerman: The Minister is generous in giving is quick and easy to find a Gas Safe Register professional way. One of the first campaigns that I got involved with who can do the job in a proper, effective way. There is in Parliament was on seat belts, and I organised and no need for anyone to turn to a cowboy, but that does drove through legislation on that. This is a good moment not mean that it does not happen. There are industry-backed to mention Jimmy Savile, who sadly died the other day; schemes for other fuels such as oil, and there is the he was a great part of that campaign. However, even heating equipment testing and approval scheme for despite “Clunk-click, every trip,” and all the television solid fuels. That enables consumers easily to find advertising, we never got more than 35% of people professionals with the appropriate qualifications, so wearing seat belts. Wherever we advertise, and regardless that they can make sure that fittings are safe. of “Coronation Street”, “EastEnders” or whatever, we will not increase the number of people using gas detectors Mr Sheerman: Will the Minister take on board what unless we bring in regulation. Is the Minister willing to one of the witnesses who gave evidence to the inquiry consider legislating for every home to have a detector? under Baroness Finlay told us when I was part of the team? He told us that things may look good on paper, Chris Grayling: We have rules relating to landlords but he knew of cases where someone who was a taxi and tenants, and I would be happy to consider such a driver one month was a gas fitter a month later after measure in those cases. It is difficult, however, for satisfying the gas-fitter regulations. Governments to instruct the public about what they should do in their houses, and we do not have such Chris Grayling: There are often anecdotes, but it is regulations for smoke alarms. I will certainly take the always difficult to know how substantial they are. I hon. Gentleman’s point away and give it due consideration. believe that we have a good system. I do not claim that it is flawless, because I do not think that such a system Mr Sheerman: Is there not an alternative? I know that has yet been invented by mankind. Clearly, it is important the Government do not like regulation, but could it not to ensure that the training provided is of an appropriate be put in law that a house could not be insured unless it quality. That does not mean that people cannot change had a gas detector? That would make insurance companies careers, but I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point that deliver on the measures that I have suggested. As I say, people who make such career changes need to have the why should insurers and big mortgage providers not appropriate skills, particularly in such a sensitive area. ensure that every home has one of these cheap items? The message to the public is simple and compelling. Chris Grayling: I praise the hon. Gentleman for his We can avoid the devastating consequences that the work in encouraging insurance companies to act, but it hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for becomes quite problematic if Governments start instructing Colne Valley described by using people who have the insurance companies in law, and telling them what they requisite skills, training and certification. In that way, should put in their policies. I have a lot of sympathy families can be certain that the person who has done the with the hon. Gentleman, but it is about the degree to 335WH Carbon Monoxide Poisoning2 NOVEMBER 2011 Carbon Monoxide Poisoning 336WH

[Chris Grayling] tragedies that they have suffered. We owe it to those people to look at the best ways to ensure that such which coercion is used and measures are imposed on tragedies do not happen to other households and families. society. This issue is one of many challenges that society I give the hon. Gentleman a commitment that I will faces when it comes to the health and welfare of individuals, look carefully at all the recommendations in the report and we must decide where to draw the line between and at his comments this afternoon, and consider further regulation, advice, guidance and encouragement of the sensible and prudent measures that can be taken to kind that provided in various campaigns. I am not reduce the likelihood of tragedy striking elsewhere. giving him an absolute no, but I am not sympathetic to We must also look at the health care arena. The hon. the idea of an all-encompassing regulation. It is difficult Gentleman made the point that early diagnosis in an A to legislate against all the different risks to society. and E department or a doctor’s surgery is extremely Mr Sheerman: The Minister and I work well on these important in ensuring that somebody who has been issues, but let us return to seat belt legislation. Would he exposed to carbon monoxide is helped, and that their remove the regulation on seat belts for adults? condition does not become worse so that they potentially lose their lives. Chris Grayling: No, I would not. It is crucial that medical professionals are aware of the risks and symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning, Mr Sheerman: A lot of people were against it. so that they can provide early and effective diagnosis. A lot of work has already been done to increase that Chris Grayling: A lot of people were, but I would not awareness and knowledge. Three years ago, in 2008, change it. We introduced seat belt regulations for the and again earlier this year, the chief medical officer and back seats of cars. The issue is about where we stop nursing medical officer wrote directly to all GPs and legislating against risk in society, and where we start. As accident and emergency consultants about carbon for my preference, on such issues, particularly when we monoxide poisoning. Those messages also contained an are talking about requiring people to have something in algorithm developed by the Health Protection Agency their homes, I am instinctively in favour of the work to aid diagnosis. Similarly, earlier this year guidance done by the hon. Gentleman and the all-party group to was issued to smoking cessation clinics on the detection encourage people to do things differently. and diagnosis of carbon monoxide poisoning from As I have said, I will happily look at all the sources other than smoking. Just last month, GPs and recommendations in the report, and I have listened to other health professionals were alerted to the new estimate what the hon. Gentleman has said today. We will also of the number of people who attend A and E departments look at whether there are further things that we can—and each year displaying signs of carbon monoxide poisoning. should—do. Work is already under way on some of the There is, therefore, a concerted and ongoing programme conclusions in the report, and that is right and proper. to raise awareness and keep the issue on the agenda for We share the common objective of trying to ensure that front-line health care professionals. That is an important people do not tragically lose their lives through carbon part of the support and strategy that the hon. Gentleman monoxide poisoning. The question is how best to do and his colleagues on the all-party group believe need to that, and the work carried out by the hon. Gentleman be implemented. and his group has given the Government a timely reminder about a number of other things that they might consider Much has already been done, and the hon. Gentleman doing. has had considerable influence in this area over the years. We recognise, however, that there is more to do, Mr Sheerman: A real opportunity is coming up with and that continued efforts are required to prevent tragedy the green deal; 27 million homes will be improved with striking as a result of carbon monoxide poisoning. The Government help and money. The Minister of State, group’s recommendations in the report are enormously Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. helpful, and we will consider them carefully with our Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), was officials. As I have said, some of the recommendations helpful and amended regulations on the green deal—well, are already in place, and work is being done to make they were amended in the House of Lords—to ensure changes. New thoughts and ideas will be considered that if a house becomes airtight as a result of the green carefully as a team, and we will respond in detail on deal, it will be obligatory to put a carbon monoxide issues that have been raised, setting out what we believe monitor in it. We will soon see a change in the way we we can and cannot do. We intend to do everything that look at homes in this country, because smart metering we can, and we recognise the importance of the issue. will provide a chance for every house in the country to look at how its energy is provided. Mr Sheerman: I will give one last little prod, which I know is not necessary because the Minister is a good Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman makes some colleague on these matters. Carbon monoxide detectors sensible points. I have committed to looking carefully at carry VAT, as do flue gas analysers. I know that it is all his comments and recommendations, and at the difficult to remove VAT, but it would be a step forward content of the report. I will not give him an instant if people did not have to pay that tax. Would the reply, but I share his objectives, and we should try to Minister’s colleagues in the Treasury consider that? mitigate the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning whenever These days, a lot of our constituents are in much more possible and prudent to do so. danger of carbon monoxide poisoning when they travel I join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to his to France and other countries. I know it is difficult, but constituent. When I attended a meeting of the all-party is the Minister talking to the European Union and the group last year, I saw a number of people from different European Commission about what is being done to areas who have engaged with this issue because of protect people in other parts of Europe? 337WH Carbon Monoxide Poisoning2 NOVEMBER 2011 Carbon Monoxide Poisoning 338WH

Chris Grayling: I think the hon. Gentleman will have 4.59 pm to talk to the Treasury on the tax front. I would like to sort things out in this country first, but I will ensure that Sitting adjourned. the hon. Gentleman’s message filters through to Brussels. Question put and agreed to.

37WS Written Ministerial Statements2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

to allow the recruitment and appointment of committee Written Ministerial members for the reformed Homes and Communities Agency’s Regulation Committee, ahead of Royal Assent Statements of the Localism Bill, which is currently before Parliament. Bringing forward this expenditure through a Contingencies Fund advance will enable efficiency savings Wednesday 2 November 2011 to be achieved and provide significant reductions in public spending. The Regulation Committee will focus on the economic HOME DEPARTMENT regulation of the social housing sector. Economic regulation provides investors with necessary assurance that the sector is properly governed and financially viable. Civil Partnerships (Religious Premises) Parliamentary approval for resources of £20,000 for this new service will be sought in a supplementary estimate for the Department for Communities and Local The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Government. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure Home Department (Lynne Featherstone): The Government estimated at £20,000 will be met by repayable cash are committed to advancing equality for lesbian, gay advances from the Contingencies Fund. and bisexual (LGB) people and to ensuring freedom of religion or belief for all people. To further both of these aims, the Government are DEFENCE committed to removing the legal barrier to civil partnerships being registered on the religious premises of those faith groups who choose to allow this to happen. This will be Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment done by implementing section 202 of the Equality Act 2010. This is a permissive measure; section 202 states that there will be no obligation on faith groups to host The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence civil partnerships. (Peter Luff): The then Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset The Government published a consultation document (Dr Fox), announced on 18 May 2011, Official Report, on 31 March providing detailed proposals on the scheme column 351, that a submarine design, powered by a new to be introduced that would allow this to happen. generation of nuclear propulsion system, the Pressurised Today, we are publishing an analysis of the consultation Water Reactor (PWR) 3, had been selected and the responses and the Government response, confirming Initial Gate investment approved. our intention for the scheme to allow religious premises to apply to be approved for civil partnership registrations Historically the Ministry of Defence has operated an to be in place by the end of this year. onshore nuclear submarine reactor prototype at the Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment (NRTE) site This document contains the final economic and equality in Caithness, in support of in-service nuclear submarines impact assessments and the proposed regulations which and the development of new reactor core designs. will be made and laid in the first half of November. Confidence in the technology is such that it is not now This is an important step forward, though focuses necessary to undertake reactor core prototyping activities; only on this specific measure and does not set out any instead the PWR 3 reactor core design will be supported further proposals for change, such as with equal civil through an extensive test and validation programme marriage, which the Government have committed to using computational modelling, analogy from current consulting on in March next year. reactor designs and testing of individual components A copy of the document will be placed in the House and systems. Library. The Vulcan NRTE site will therefore not be required to support reactor core prototyping activity when the current series of PWR2 reactor core prototype tests are complete in 2015. Options for the future of the site are COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT currently being assessed; these range from placing the prototype facilities into care and maintenance while Homes and Communities Agency Regulation Committee retaining the site’s strategic capabilities, to decommissioning the site and returning it to Nuclear Decommissioning Authority ownership. The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant We will work closely with the Department for Energy Shapps): I wish to inform Parliament that the Department and Climate Change, the Nuclear Decommissioning for Communities and Local Government has obtained Authority, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency approval for an advance from the Contingencies Fund and the Scottish Government during this process.

5P Petitions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Petitions 6P

during all the indignity and stress of debt, having Petition pleasures and passions taken away is wrong and unfair; that being without a bank account is very hard in Wednesday 2 November 2011 today’s society—it is necessary to have one in order to receive benefits; that anything extra the insolvent earns during those three years goes to the creditor, meaning OBSERVATIONS that doing better financially gives bankrupts no relief and no benefit; that insolvents are even asked to pay to become insolvent, and are publically shamed by having BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS their bankruptcy published. Banking and Bankruptcy Further declares that the petitioner believes that our whole ethos is built up on a contractual debt, blame and The Petition of Elspeth Rushbrook, punishment that enters into every part of our existence; Declares that the petitioner believes that the current banks and law unfairly control much of our society; the rules regarding banking and bankruptcy need urgently recurrence of recessions and other problems suggest revising; that since the downturn, there is very strong that our current systems are not the way, and invite us negative public feeling towards financial institutions; to urgently look again—not try to continue much as that there is much anger at the bonuses and that public before. money has bailed out highly paid bankers of a crisis Further declares that the petitioner believes that one which we are suffering and paying for in many senses, should not have to pay to declare oneself bankrupt; that while banks create debts for private customers as well as bankruptcy should last and have effect for only one the country as a whole. year; that there should be no public publication and Further declares that banks extract huge fees from shaming; that the allowable personal budget should thousands of personal customers for going only a little return to £50 per month, and to rise appropriately with over a limit, and these fees have no cap; fees of up to inflation; that bankruptcy should not affect members of £100 per month are taken automatically and there are a household or family, only the persons directly filing cases where these have made those in hardship have for it; that creditors should not be able to take extra four figure fees while investigations go on; that this can monies earned in this time; that there should be a lead to loss of banking facilities and demands for system in place to allow bank accounts for bankrupts further money from banks; that the High Court test without further fees; that there should be no ban on case was a very drawn out way of looking at this issue, public offices or other roles; that personal bankruptcy which is clearly deeply unbalanced; that the High Court should not stop a self-employed business and vice versa; decision was entirely in the bank’s favour, and the furore that this is the livelihood and will mean no money for around the unsuccessful case shows how strong popular the person filing as bankrupt; that creditors should not feeling is about this matter; that banks make over be able to force borrowers into bankruptcy, particularly £I billion each year through these fees, on top of their when the creditors have created the debt, such as with other profits. banking fees or aggressive lending. Further declares that bankruptcy laws have been Further declares that the petitioner believes that student tightened without public consultation or even widespread loans of all kinds should be covered by bankruptcy; knowledge; most websites on debt do NOT mention that the 2004 ban should be repealed as should the changes to bankruptcy laws, including the Government’s; March 2011 legislation. in this time, debt has become very common; that debt is Further declares that the petitioner believes that having seen as bad but it is often the only way to improve to attend a court hearing in respect of bankruptcy circumstances, such as setting up business or paying for should be stopped—this is extra stress and cost (to an education; that debt is also a result of materialism attend) and quite often humiliation. and consumerist society; that Government cuts, especially to legal aid and for medical treatment, make this worse. Further declares that the petitioner believes that information from debt advice centres should also be Further declares that the petitioner believes that looked at, as many of these encourage insolvency as an bankruptcy laws have been put in place by those who easy way of freedom, and do not present the facts are well off; that the previous £50 free spending money properly. a month was tight—but the current £10 for three years shows no understanding of modern life or poverty; that Further declares that the petitioner believes that the £10 per family member shows no understanding of law should protect genuine people from large preying single people and expects the burden and shame creditors without encouraging non-payment from reckless of bankruptcy to be spread across a whole household; borrowers. and that for a person already under pressure, to not Further declares that bailiffs should be stopped have any kind of relief asks for other problems, such as immediately; that it is unsupportable to be harassed in depression, as £10 a month means a single coffee a your home for goods not related to the creditor’s claims. week, is not enough to buy a meal out, to allow you to leave your home town, to rent a DVD each week, for a Further declares that banking fees should be abolished television licence; that bankrupts may have to sell anything immediately; that such fees are not necessary, as they of value; that the law does not understand how things are only partly as a deterrent; that if one goes over one’s like DVD players, music and especially instruments, or account’s limit, the account should simply not allow computer games are vital; that whatever our financial further withdrawals until further funds are put in; that circumstances, we all need a richer life, and after and banks should be banned immediately from following up 7P Petitions2 NOVEMBER 2011 Petitions 8P fees with demands to further repay overdrafts; that the debt or failing to pay, which is why the Government where in the past, unreasonable fees have been charged believe that it is essential for a consumer facing financial and or hardship has been caused, these fees should be difficulties to be able to seek early advice as to possible returned to customers. courses of action. The Government have asked the Money Advice Service to review how debt advice could Further declares that the blame, debt and contract be more effectively delivered in the future, building on system of our society needs to be revisited and debate the expertise of specialist providers, with a view to begun and implemented about a fairer way forward. putting in place a new delivery model in 2013, which The petitioner therefore requests that the House of will ensure that a holistic approach is taken so that Commons urges the Government to urgently review people have the support to understand and evaluate these rules and the ethos behind them. their options for debt remedy. AndthePetitionerremains,etc.—[Presented,11August2011; Bankruptcy is one way for a person to deal with debts Official Report, Vol. 531, c. 13P .] they cannot pay. The bankruptcy proceedings free them [P000955] from overwhelming debts so they can make a fresh start, and make sure their assets are shared out fairly Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, among creditors. It is Government policy that the costs Innovation and Skills: of administering bankruptcy cases should be self-funding Thank you for your wide-ranging petition regarding rather than a cost to the taxpayer. Consequently, the fee the current rules for banking and bankruptcy. The regime must be set to recover costs and this is achieved coalition Government take these issues very seriously, both by charging a deposit on those petitioning for which is why we are committed in the Coalition Agreement bankruptcy and by realising appropriate assets (including to curb unsustainable lending and strengthen consumer a person’s net income) before any return may be made protections, particularly for the most vulnerable. In to creditors. When dealing with bankruptcy cases, it is particular, the five new rights for credit card customers reasonable in balancing bankrupt and creditor interests mean they will have greater influence over their cards that any income above that needed to meet the reasonable and it will be easier for them to compare and move to a domestic needs of the bankrupt and his/her family better deal; the Consumer Credit Directive gives consumers should be made available to cover the costs of administering an absolute right to withdraw from any credit agreement the bankruptcy and make returns to creditors. A within 14 days; and the Office of Fair Trading’s (OFT’s) contribution would never be sought which did not allow Irresponsible Lending Guidance provides greater clarity reasonable domestic needs to be met. Student loans are on what constitutes irresponsible lending. not included as bankruptcy debts because they are We issued a Call for Evidence on “Managing Borrowing made on non-commercial terms, including low interest and dealing with debt”in October 2010, covering consumer rates and repayment being contingent on later income. credit and personal insolvency issues. We published a In addition, student loans are paid out of and subsidised summary of responses in July 2011. The evidence shows by public funds. that there have been significant developments in the It is clear that people see benefits in removing the market in recent years. As part of the OFT’s work on court from the bankruptcy process where it is unnecessary personal current accounts, banks have committed to for a court to take a decision. We are currently exploring introduce measures to improve the transparency of options to streamline the route into bankruptcy, with unarranged overdraft charges and, through the Lending appropriate safeguards, and ensure that the court’s focus Code, they have agreed to act sympathetically, positively is on dispute resolution. and proactively if they have reason to believe that one Debt relief orders offer a low cost route to debt relief of their customers is in financial difficulty. Many banks where the person has low assets and liabilities. Changes have also revised their charging structures. However, were introduced in April 2011 to widen access to the there are still serious concerns about how charges affect debt relief order regime by ensuring that a person’s consumers, particularly where charges may not be clear future pension right is not counted as an asset, which or transparent. The Government are working with current could keep a person trapped in debt when they have account providers to determine the most appropriate nothing to offer their creditors. course of action to deliver further improvements to consumers. We will regulate to address consumer detriment We are aware of the concern that there should be if suitable alternatives cannot be agreed. Ministers will greater access for bankrupts to basic bank accounts and report back later in the year to announce the Government we plan shortly to seek views on how to improve that position on these and other credit aspects of the Review. access. The Government recognise that legitimate creditors The petitioner may be interested to note that further are entitled to recover what they are owed and that advice for those concerned about specific charges enforcement action may be necessary if a debtor fails to imposed by a bank is available from the Money Advice pay or negotiate a reasonable repayment plan. Bailiffs Service (http://yourmoney.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/ and enforcement officers are authorised to remove and products/loans/tvpes/bank overdraft.html) and the Financial sell a person’s possessions in order to pay money to a Ombudsman Service (FOS) (http://www.financial- person or organisation. Detailed guidance on their ombudsman.org.uk/faq/bank-charges.html). In relation responsibilities, how they work and how to make a to bailiffs. Leaflet EX345 (About Bailiffs and Enforcement complaint about them is available. Debtors should not Officers) is available from the Court Form Finder on be able to avoid their financial responsibilities by ignoring the Justice website at: www.justice.gov.uk. 613W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 614W

The following table gives the number of patients on Written Answers to the depression register for the areas requested, from the latest release of the QOF, covering the financial year Questions 2010 - 2011: QOF 2010-11 Number of patients (aged Wednesday 2 November 2011 18 years or over) on depression register

England 4,878,188 North West Strategic Health Authority 746,640 HEALTH Warrington Primary Care Trust 20,657 Source: QMAS database—2010-11 Departmental Consultants Diseases: EU Action Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 19 October 2011, Official Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 1029W, on departmental procurement, Health what steps he has taken towards a UK plan for how many contracts involved the provision of consultancy rare diseases as required by the Council of the European services; how many contracts involved the employment Union’s recommendation on an action in the field of of a consultant within his Department; whether any rare diseases published in June 2009 (2009/C151/02). such consultants remained in employment on the latest [77532] date for which information is available; and if he will Mr Simon Burns: The United Kingdom response to make a statement. [77720] the European Council’s recommendation on the development of a national plan for rare diseases is due Mr Simon Burns: None of the purchase orders by the end of 2013. As part of the work in developing awarded to third sector organisations between May the plan departmental officials are working very closely 2010 and August 2011 that were set out in the answer of with the devolved Administrations and key partners to 19 October 2011 fall within the Government Procurement ensure that the plan responds to the actions identified in Service definition of consultancy: Recommendation 2009/C 151/02. A public consultation “the provision to management of objective advice relating to on the draft plan is expected to be launched before the strategy, structure, management or operations of an organisation, end of this year. in pursuit of its purpose and objectives”. Such advice will be provided outside the ‘business-as-usual’ Haemolytic Uremic Syndrome environment when in-house skills are not available and will be time-limited. Consultancy may include the Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for identification of options with recommendations, or Health how many (a) children and (b) adults were assistance with (but the not the delivery of) the diagnosed with atypical haemolytic uremic syndrome in implementation of solutions. each of the last three years; and how many of those diagnosed have died as a result of the syndrome. [77948] Departmental Public Expenditure Mr Simon Burns: Information is not available in the format requested. Information on the numbers of patients Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for diagnosed in out-patient or other environments is not Health whether he receives any external funding for collected centrally. The information provided in the (a) his ministerial office and (b) his advisers; and what following table is the number of admission episodes the (i) source and (ii) amount is of any such funding. where a primary diagnosis of haemolytic-uremic syndrome [78019] (i.e. not just atypical) has been recorded. Total number of finished admission episodes1 with a primary diagnosis2 of Mr Simon Burns: All costs for the ministerial private Haemolytic-uremic syndrome (ICD-10 code D59.3) by age group for 2007-08, office and special advisers are met by the Department. 2008-09 and 2009-10 Age group 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Depressive Illnesses 0-17 286 325 310 18+ 82 63 79 Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Total 368 388 389 how many people were diagnosed of suffering from 1 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under (a) severe and (b) mild or moderate depression in one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the (i) England, (ii) the northwest and (iii) Warrington in year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the the latest year for which figures are available. [77652] number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 2 Primary diagnosis Paul Burstow: The national Quality Outcomes The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) Framework (QOF) for England records the number of data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. people on practice disease registers with a diagnosis of Sources: depression, for patients aged 18 years or over. There are 1. Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care no separate prevalence figures for depression by severity 2. Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity type. in the independent sector 615W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 616W

Information on deaths involving atypical haemolytic- Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for uremic syndrome is not directly available from the statistical Health how many patients with atypical haemolytic information derived from death registrations. uremic syndrome were waiting for an organ transplant in each of the last 10 years; and how many received an organ transplant in each of the last three years. [77969] Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many (a) children and (b) adults with Anne Milton: The information available is provided in atypical haemolytic uremic syndrome were treated with the following tables. (a) plasma therapy and (b) dialysis in each of the last Table 1: Patients on the United Kingdom kidney transplant list as at three years. [77968] 31 March 2005-11, where the primary renal disease was atypical haemolytic uremic syndrome Status Active Suspended1 Total Mr Simon Burns: Information on the number of these treatments and procedures carried out outside a March 26 8 234 2005 hospital is not collected centrally. The following table March 28 10 38 covers in-patient activity for haemolytic-uremic syndrome 2006 (i.e. not just atypical). March 25 9 34 2007 Total number of finished admission episodes1 with a primary diagnosis2 of Haemolytic-uremic syndrome (ICD-10 code D59.3) and where a treatment or March 23 6 29 procedure3 of plasma exchange4 or plasma transfusion5 or dialysis6 has been 2008 recorded by age group for 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10 March 21 7 28 Treatment Age group 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2009 March 19 8 27 Plasma 0-17 18 8 23 2010 Exchange March 17 9 26 18+ 11 31 27 2011 Total — 29 39 50 1 Suspended means the patient has been temporarily removed from the list. This happens for such reasons as being too ill to undergo the operation or being away on holiday. Plasma 0-17 77 112 72 2 NHS Blood and Transplant do not hold historical transplant list data with Transfusion primary renal disease prior to 2005, therefore the transplant list data shown is for the last seven years. 18+ 0 0 0 Source: Total — 11 112 72 NHS Blood and Transplant Table 2: Number of kidneys transplants in the UK, 1 April 2004 to Dialysis 0-17 22 21 45 31 March 2011, where the primary renal disease was haemolytic uremic syndrome 18+ 50 8 10 Financial year Transplants Total — 72 29 55 1 Finished admission episodes 2004-05 8 A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under 2005-06 5 one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the 2006-07 10 year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within 2007-08 10 the year. 2008-09 6 2 Primary diagnosis 2009-10 14 The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the HES data set and provides the 2010-11 18 main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. Note: 3 Number of episodes with a (named) main or secondary procedure The transplant data is provided for the same seven year time period as figures The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was recorded in would be misleading for three years only, as the figures have fluctuated. any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and four prior to 2002-03) procedure Source: fields in a HES record. A record is only included once in each count, even if the NHS Blood and Transplant procedure is recorded in more than one procedure field of the record. Note that more procedures are carried out than episodes with a main or secondary procedure. For example, patients undergoing a ’cataract operation’ would tend Health to have at least two procedures—removal of the faulty lens and the fitting of a new one—counted in a single episode. 4 Plasma Exchange (OPCS 4.5 codes) Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health X32.2—Exchange of plasma (single) what recent assessment he has made of local authorities’ X32.3—Exchange of plasma (2-9) X32.4—Exchange of plasma (10-19) preparedness for the proposed transfer of public health X32.5—Exchange of plasma (>19) responsibilities. [77534] 5 Plasma Transfusion (OPCS 4.5 codes) X34.2—Transfusion of plasma 6 Dialysis (OPCS 4.5 codes) Anne Milton: The four Strategic Health Authority X40.1—Renal dialysis (SHA) Cluster Directors of Public Health have been X40.2—Peritoneal dialysis NEC X40.3—Haemodialysis NEC charged with leading public health transitions at the X40.4—Haemofiltration local level. Primary care trusts and local government X40.5—Automated peritoneal dialysis are responsible for planning the transition of public X40.6—Continuous ambulatory peritoneal dialysis X40.7—Haemoperfusion health responsibilities. Local transition plans are required X40.8—Other specified compensation for renal failure to be submitted to SHA Clusters by 31 March 2012. X40.9—Unspecified compensation for renal failure Implementation of these plans will be monitored by the Sources: 1. Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health SHA Cluster Directors of Public Health. The Directors and social care of Public Health will report progress against these plans 2. Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity to a joint Department of Health and Local Government in the independent sector Programme Board. 617W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 618W

Health Services influenza injections to 60 years; and if he will make a statement. [77477] Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) for what reason the cost of providing existing Anne Milton: Policy on national immunisation primary care support services was not included in the programmes, including seasonal influenza immunisation, calculations for the assessment of the Shared Business is based on the advice of the Joint Committee on Services; [77816] Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI). JCVI has advised that the groups at greatest risk from flu eligible to (2) if he will ensure that no decision is taken on the receive flu vaccine on the national health service in the bid from NHS Shared Business Services to operate 2011-12 flu season are: primary care support services in the south west until the standardising primary care support services report people aged 65 and over; and 1 has been published. [77817] people under 65 years in clinical risk groups , including pregnant women. Mr Simon Burns: The decision to award services to 1 Serious medical conditions, which put people at increased risk NHS Shared Business Services is made locally, and the from flu, are: Department is not involved in the assessment process. chronic (long-term) respiratory disease, such as severe asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease or bronchitis; The Department does not intervene in matters, which chronic heart disease, such as heart failure; are for local determination because local organisations are best able to make decisions about their local services. chronic kidney disease; chronic liver disease; Hepatitis chronic neurological disease, such as Parkinson’s disease or motor neurone disease; Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for diabetes; or Health what assessment he has made of the effect of a a weakened immune system due to disease (such as HIV/AIDS) reduction in onward transmission of hepatitis C on or treatment (such as cancer treatment). NHS costs. [78156] JCVI is currently reviewing the evidence regarding a number of potential extensions to the flu vaccination Anne Milton: We have not assessed the effect of a programme for future years and will provide advice in reduction in onward transmission of hepatitis C on due course. costs to the national health service. However, a reduction NHS Blood and Transplant: Pay in hepatitis C transmission appears likely to reduce NHS costs both by decreasing in the medium, term the John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health need for drug therapy and in the long term, the burden how much was paid to the directors of NHS Blood and of serious liver disease. Transplant in (a) salaries, (b) other benefits and (c) employer pension contributions in each of the last five Influenza: Vaccination years. [77780] Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: The information is shown in the following whether he has any plans to reduce the age limit for free table.

NHS Blood and Transplant Directors’ salary, benefits and pension contributions, 2010-11 to 2006-07 £ 2010-11 2009-10 2008-09 Pension Pension Pension Position Salary Benefits1 cont. Salary Benefits cont. Salary Benefits cont.

Chief Executive 190,000 700 25,000 190,000 700 25,000 170,000 700 20,000 to to to to to to 195,000 30,000 195,000 30,000 175,000 25,000 Managing Director National ————————— Blood Service (role disestablished 2007-08) Managing Director BPL ————————— (part year 2007-08—role disestablished) Managing Director UK ————————— Transplant (role disestablished 2008-09) Medical Director (part year 205,000 300 25,000 155,000 — 20,000 115,000 — 15,000 2009-10—permanent to to to to to to appointment) 210,000 30,000 160,000 25,000 120,000 20,000 Director of Strategic Supply ————————— and Service Delivery (role disestablished 2008-09) Director of Patient Services 140,000 2,600 15,000 130,000 4,300 15,000 115,000 4,100 15,000 (2008-09 role established) to to to to to to 145,000 20,000 135,000 20,000 120,000 20,000 619W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 620W

NHS Blood and Transplant Directors’ salary, benefits and pension contributions, 2010-11 to 2006-07 £ 2010-11 2009-10 2008-09 Pension Pension Pension Position Salary Benefits1 cont. Salary Benefits cont. Salary Benefits cont.

Director of Specialist Services — — — 135,000 — 15,000 125,000 — 15,000 (part year 2009-10—role to to to to disestablished) 140,000 20,000 130,000 20,000 Director of Blood Donation 130,000 7,700 15,000 35,000 — 5,000 to 6,000 to 100 5,000 to (part year 2009/10— to to to 10,000 70,000 10,000 permanent appointment) 135,000 20,000 40,000 Director of Organ Donation 130,000 — 15,000 120,000 — 1,0005 65,000 — 5,000 to and Transplantation (part to to to to to 10,000 year 2008-09—role 135,000 20,000 125,000 20,000 70,000 established) Director of Finance 140,000 1,500 15,000 130,000 — 15,000 120,000 — 15,000 to to to to to to 145,000 20,000 135,000 20,000 125,000 20,000 Director of Human 120,000 3,300 15,000 120,000 4,600 15,000 110,000 5,400 15,000 Resources (part year to to to to to to 2006-07—role established) 125,000 20,000 125,000 20,000 115,000 20,000 Director of Business 55,000 800 5,000 to 120,000 9,300 5,000 to 105,000 9,200 5,000 to Transformation Services (part to 10,000 to 10,000 to 10,000 year 2010-11—permanent 60,000 125,000 100,000 appointment) Director of Strategy ———0to—0to100,000 800 10,000 Management (part year 5,000 5,000 to to 2009-10—role disestablished) 105,000 15,000 Director of Communications 105,000 — 10,000 70,000 — 5,000 to 100,000 100 10,000 (part year 2009-10— to to to 10,000 to to permanent appointment) 110,000 15,000 75,000 105,000 15,000 Director of Estates and 110,000 3,600 10,000 110,000 5,100 15,000 100,000 5,700 10,000 Facilities (part year 2006- to to to to to to 07—role established) 115,000 15,000 115,000 20,000 105,000 15,000

£ 2007-08 2006-07 Position Salary Benefits Pension cont. Salary Benefits Pension cont.

Chief Executive 250,000 to 200 30,000 to 165,000 to — 20,000 to 265,000 35,000 170,000 25,000 Managing Director National — — — 120,000 to 4,800 15,000 to Blood Service (role 125,000 20,000 disestablished 2007-08) Managing Director BPL (part 195,000 to 4,400 25,000 to 100,000 to 5,400 10,000 to year 2007-08—role 200,000 30,000 105,000 15,000 disestablished) Managing Director UK 130,000 to — 15,000 to 125,000 to — 15,000 to Transplant (role disestablished 135,000 20,000 130,000 20,000 2008-09) Medical Director (part year 95,000 to 3,600 10,000 to 205,000 to 1,100 25,000 to 2009/10—permanent 100,000 15,000 210,000 30,000 appointment) Director of Strategic Supply and 120,000 to 5,600 15,000 to ——— Service Delivery (role 125,000 20,000 disestablished 2008-09) Director of Patient Services —————— (2008-09 role established) Director of Specialist Services —————— (part year 2009-10—role disestablished) Director of Blood Donation —————— (part year 2009-10—permanent appointment) Director of Organ Donation —————— and Transplantation (part year 2008-09—role established) Director of Finance 165,000 to 8,000 20,000 to 110,000 to 5,400 15,000 to 175,000 25,000 115,000 20,000 Director of Human Resources 100,000 to 3,900 10,000 to 75,000 to 2,900 10,000 to (part year 2006-07—role 105,000 15,000 80,000 15,000 established) 621W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 622W

£ 2007-08 2006-07 Position Salary Benefits Pension cont. Salary Benefits Pension cont.

Director of Business 100,000 to 8,500 5,000 to 60,000 to 4,800 5,000 to Transformation Services (part 105,000 10,000 65,000 10,000 year 2010-11—permanent appointment) Director of Strategy 100,000 to — 10,000 to 95,000 to — 10,000 to Management (part year 2009- 105,000 15,000 100,000 15,000 10—role disestablished) Director of Communications 125,000 to 0 to 500 15,000 to 145,000 to 3,200 15,000 to (part year 2009-10—permanent 130,000 20,000 155,000 20,000 appointment) Director of Estates and Facilities 95,000 to 5,000 10,000 to 55,000 to — 5,000 to (part year 2006-07—role 100,000 15,000 60,000 10,000 established) 1 Benefits in kind were in relation to the provision of cars and are stated in round £100s not £1000s. Notes: 1. In October 2005 the National Blood Service and.UK Transplant merged to create NHS Blood and Transplant. The two organisational structures merged and the initial changes were completed in 2006-07. Further changes to Director posts have been made in later financial years as a result of further reconfiguration to support delivery of the strategic plan. 2. Significant salary changes between years can be explained by a new appointment to a post previously filled by an individual with many years’ service, non-recurrent costs of one-off settlements (such as redundancy) and additional running costs when two salaries were being paid to cover sickness or during the process of reconfiguration. Source: NHS Blood and Transplant

NHS: Older People NHS and (d) length of contract from the NHS is of each of the staff-led social enterprises; and if he will Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Health make a statement. [77512] what his most recent estimate is of the proportion of NHS expenditure which is spent on people aged 60 Paul Burstow: The Department has supported the years and over; and if he will make a statement. [77524] right to request (R2R), which has enabled 45 staff-led social enterprises to be established as shown in the Mr Simon Burns: The most recent and partial analysis following table. This policy has supported approximately of national health service expenditure by age was supplied 25,000 staff to move out of the national health service in departmental report 2006 (figure 6.2) based on analysis into social enterprises with contracts worth roughly of financial year 2003-04 (for the hospital and community £900 million a list of these are also in the table. health sector (HCHS)). This analysis showed that 43% of total HCHS expenditure was on people aged 65 and The Department cannot provide details of individual over. social enterprise staff and turnover figures as they are commercial in confidence and belong to the social NHS: Social Enterprises enterprises as they are now independent bodies. Contracts were negotiated between the new social enterprises and Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health commissioners (ie primary care trusts). The Department’s pursuant to the answer of 18 October 2011, Official policy was the contracts should be for between three Report, column 839W, on the public sector, what the and five years, depending on services and the introduction (a) name, (b) region, (c) size of contract from the of any qualified provider for their services.

Strategic health authority Trust Social enterprise Services

East of England North East Essex Anglian Community Whole provider arm with over 40 services including Enterprise learning disability services and services for children. East of England Mid Essex Central Essex Community Whole provider arm. Providing and/or managing the Services provision of a wide range of safe, high quality and cost effective community-based health and social care related services to local people within the East of England and adjoining areas of London and Kent. East of England Bedfordshire Community Dental Services Community Dental Services providing vital oral health CIC services to the most marginalised people and disadvantaged communities in Bedfordshire and Luton. The social enterprise will improve the oral health of people with special care needs, and vulnerable people who do not have access to regular dental care.

East of England Bedfordshire Sunnyhill Health Care CIC A range of primary and community services including general medical care services, home visits, minor surgery, ante and post natal care and cervical cytology. 623W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 624W

Strategic health authority Trust Social enterprise Services

East of England Norfolk Horizon Health CIC Primary care services and. management of Long Term Conditions for patients in custodial/offender care environments. East Midlands Leicester City Inclusion Healthcare General Medical Services for homeless people including substance misuse services. East Midlands Derby City Ripplez Health visiting programme working with vulnerable teenage parents. London Bromley Bromley Healthcare A whole provider arm of integrated community and primary care services. London Kingston Your Healthcare A whole provider arm of primary and community care services. North West Salford Social Adventures Ltd A healthy living centre delivering a range of public health services. South East Coast Medway Medway Community Whole provider arm providing provide a range of Healthcare community health services for the population of Medway which is 275,000. These include district nursing, health visiting, outpatient therapists, out of hours service, dental service and community hospital. Yorks and Humber Hull City Health Care Partnership Whole provider arm including Adult Services, Children’s CIC Services, Specialist Services, Primary Health Care Services and Corporate Services. Yorks and Humber Wakefield Spectrum Community Health Enhanced general medical services, health promotion and wellbeing interventions targeting specific population groups, eg adult and young offenders, older substance misusers and dually diagnosed clients, young people and hard to reach groups seeking contraception and sexual health advice. Yorks and Humber NE Lincolnshire NAViGO Health and Social Mental health services, including services for older people, Care Trust Plus Care CIC community mental health teams, eating disorder services and employment services. London Brent PCT Integrated Health CIC A wide range of primary health care services for residents of Brent, Harrow and Ealing. London Ealing PCT The Wellbeing Service Primary care mental health services across the borough of Ealing to clients who have primarily mild to moderate mental health problems. Clinical and non clinical interventions using a holistic approach, including one to one, telephone contact, and patient groups using evidence based therapies. North West Salford PCX Six Degrees Social Enterprise The Primary Care Mental Health Service is an Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) Service delivering high quality and innovative care with a central mission to improve mental health and wellbeing through the use of self help skills and see more resilient communities in which people are accepted, supported and equipped with skills to deal with the challenges they face. South West Bristol PCT Bristol Community Health Whole provider arm with services targeted primarily at the (Bristol CIC adult population in Bristol and managing a comprehensive Community portfolio of complementary, nurse-led, community and Health) specialist services. Providing a number of services with a specific remit, to meet the health inequalities agenda such as our Tuberculosis service as well as delivering primary care to the prison populations in Bristol and South Gloucestershire. South West Devon Chime Audiology Providing hearing and balance care to patients of all ages from birth to old age for the Exeter, Mid and East Devon areas. This includes follow up of babies from the Newborn Hearing Screening Programme through to a comprehensive adult hearing aid service including hearing therapy—free at the point of delivery via the NHS. South West Swindon Care and Support Partnership Whole provider arm providing support for long-term (SEQOL—Social Enterprise conditions, rehabilitation, support of older people with Quality of Life) complex health and social care needs and complex care at home. West Midlands Birmingham East John Taylor Hospice CIC Community end of life care, including hospice at home and and North PCT Macmillan services. Yorks and Humber NHS Bradford and Enable2 CIC Interpreting and translation services. Airedale (interpreting) 625W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 626W

Strategic health authority Trust Social enterprise Services

Yorks and Humber North East Care Plus Group (North East Wide range of services including end of life care, specialist Lincolnshire Lincolnshire) Ltd services, rapid response team, and all adult and older Care—Trust Plus peoples mental health and associated services in North (NEL CTP) East Lincolnshire. Yorks and Humber Rotherham Gateway Primary Care CIC Primary care general medical services for asylum seekers and socially excluded vulnerable groups and individuals within the Rotherham area. East Midlands Nottingham Nottingham CityCare Delivering a range of community services in partnership Partnership with Nottingham Emergency Medical Services CBS and Nottingham City Council. East of England Great Yarmouth East Coast Community Whole provider arm including a wide range of community and Waveney Healthcare CIC services together with a GP Practice and small number of specialist services such as prison healthcare, predominantly within the Great Yarmouth and Waveney area. East of England Hertfordshire Health Inclusion Matters CIC Homeless primary care services. (trading as Meadowell) East of England Luton CHUMS CIC The Child Bereavement and Trauma Service CHUMS in Bedfordshire offers bereavement support to children up to the age of 18 years and their families following the death of someone close through services including family visits, individual support, workshops and parents groups, a parenting course, residential weekends, family days, specialist days for those bereaved through suicide and also a remembrance service. CHUMS also delivers training to professionals, and produces literature in support of bereaved families and professionals. East of England Suffolk Allied Health Professionals Providing community musculoskeletal physiotherapy and Suffolk CIC back and neck services in Suffolk. London Hillingdon The Orchard Medical Practice Primary and additional medical services in an area of high CIC deprivation, including asylum seekers, refugees and many patients who do not have English as a first language and working in close association with other health and community groups. London Newham Name to be decided A range of integrated primary and community services. London Tower Hamlets Accelerate Health CIC Wound care and lymphoedema services. (wound healing) (Trading as Accelerate CIC) North West Bolton Bolton Community Practice Primary medical care services for vulnerable people. CIC South Central Buckinghamshire The Healthy Living Centre Health and wellbeing services. CIC South Central Isle of Wight The Phoenix Project A range of day service activities for people with (earning disabilities living on the Isle of Wight including individuals with profound and multiple disabilities and complex health needs as well as individuals with challenging behaviour. South East Coast Surrey First Community Health and A wide range of community healthcare services for families Care QC and adults living in Surrey and West Sussex. South West Bath and North Sirona Health and Care CIC Whole provider arm providing community health and East Somerset social care services for adults, older people, children and learning disabled. South West Cornwall and Isles Peninsula Community Health Whole provider arm of approximately 48 service lines of Scilly CIC providing a full range of community health services for both adults and children for the whole population of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. Service lines also include the salaried dental service/district nursing, health visiting, school nursing, community therapy and podiatry. South West Gloucestershire Gloucestershire Care Services Whole provider arm providing a full range of community CIC health and adult social care services. South West North Somerset North Somerset Community Whole provider arm providing a full range of primary and Partnership CIC social care services. South West Plymouth Plymouth Community Whole provider arm providing a wide range of Primary Healthcare CIC Care, Community and In-patient services for Children, Young People and Adults including a comprehensive range of Mental Health, Learning Disability and General Rehabilitation services for the City of Plymouth, including some services commissioned by Devon and Cornwall Primary Care Trusts. 627W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 628W

Strategic health authority Trust Social enterprise Services

South West Torbay Care Trust DENPOD Oral care services for disadvantaged and vulnerable people, delivering oral health promotion activities to protect and maintain oral health. Podiatry providing foot health interventions and education to the vulnerable and those in hard to reach areas to remain active, pain free and independent. West Midlands Dudley Lymphcare UK Comprehensive and holistic Lymphoedema Service that is equitable and accessible to patients suffering with both Primary and Secondary Lymphoedema, Chronic oedema and Lipoedema. Yorks and Humber Bradford and Bevan Healthcare CIC Bevan healthcare providing easy access to high quality Airedale primary healthcare services for homeless people, people in temporary accommodation, asylum seekers, refugees and other marginalised groups who find it difficult to gain access to mainstream services. Yorks and Humber Kirklees Locala Community A whole provider arm providing a wide range of health, Partnerships CIC wellbeing and social care services.

Total staff All R2R totals 25,000

Organs: Donors 50% improvement in deceased donor rates by 2013 anticipated by the Organ Donation Taskforce. A Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Transitional Steering Group, established in March 2011 if he will consider allocating responsibility to one is encouraging action at all levels and provides a clear individual for the Government’s objective of improving reporting line to United Kingdom health ministers on rates of organ donation and transplantation; and if he progress. As we modernise the NHS we will continue our work to keep donation rates at a record high so that will make a statement. [77727] more people can benefit from a life-saving transplant.

Anne Milton: Improving rates of organ donation and Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health transplantation rests not with one individual but with what the percentage change was in the number of people a wide range of people. As Minister for Public Health, (a) on the Organ Donor Register, (b) who died in I am responsible for organ donation and transplantation circumstances suitable for organ donation and whose for the Department of Health. organs were donated and (c) requiring a transplant Therefore, work continues at national, regional and operation who received one in each of the last six years; local levels across a number of organisations to support and if he will make a statement. [77728] the excellent work of the national health service in identifying, referring and procuring donor organs. We Anne Milton: The information requested is provided have made good progress and are on track to meet the in the following table.

Organ Donor Register (ODR) figures, 2005-06 to 2010-11 Number on the Percentage Deceased organ Percentage Deceased organ Percentage Financial year ODR change donors change transplants change

2005-06 13,126,625 — 764 — 2,196 — 2006-07 14,209,009 8 793 4 2,385 9 2007-08 15,148,606 7 809 2 2,381 -0.2 2008-09 16,132,651 6 899 11 2,552 7 2009-10 17,084,885 6 959 7 2,645 4 2010-11 17,751,795 4 1,010 5 2,695 2

Overall increase 4,625,170 35 246 32 499 23 Note: The percentage change figure for the overall increase, will not equal the total sum of the percentage change figures. The percentage change from year to year is calculated comparing one year with the previous year, whereas the overall increase is comparing the final year (2010-11) with the first year (2005-06). Source: NHS Blood and Transplant

Sustained work to improve organ donation and largely through NHS Blood and Transplant, to increase transplantation rates continues at national, regional the number of specialist nurses for organ donation and and local levels and we have made good progress and appoint clinical leads, donation committees and donation are on track to meet the 50% improvement in deceased chairs in acute trusts to drive improvement locally. This donor rates by 2013 anticipated by the Organ Donation has helped donor rates to increase and for rates to Taskforce. Significant resources have been made available, continue to rise in 2011-12. 629W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 630W

Pain in the proposed list for the library of NICE Quality Standards that the National Quality Board will be Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State considering shortly, following the completion of an for Health what discussions he has had with the engagement exercise hosted by NICE. An announcement National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence will be made in due course. on the publication of a quality standard for chronic pain in adults. [78005] Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many (a) elective and (b) emergency (i) Paul Burstow: We wrote to the National Institute for admissions and (ii) bed days were recorded for patients Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) in December, with a primary diagnosis of chronic pain in each asking for further scoping work on 11 topics, and for primary care trust in the last year for which figures are advice on their suitability for the development of quality available. [78006] standards. The list included a possible quality standard or standards on pain relief, including pain relief in Paul Burstow: The information requested is in the children. This topic of ‘pain management’ was included following table.

Number of finished admission episodes1 and number of finished consultant episode (FCE) bed days2 by method of admission3 with a primary diagnosis of chronic pain4 by primary care trust of residence5 2009-10 Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Finished admission episodes FCE bed days Primary care trust Elective Emergency Unknown Elective Emergency Unknown

East Midlands SHA Bassetlaw PCT *00000 DerbyCityPCT **00310 Derbyshire County PCT 9 8 0 25 22 0 Leicester city PCT **0020 Leicestershire County and Rutland 6 11 * 39 49 57 PCT Northamptonshire Teaching PCT **00720 Nottingham City PCT 7*0010 Nottinghamshire County Teaching * 6 0 20 72 0 PCT

East of England SHA Bedfordshire PCT 18 * 0 37 6 0 Cambridgeshire PCT 22 9 0 0 60 0 East and North Hertfordshire PCT 20 * 0 11 27 0 Great Yarmouth and Waveney PCT * * 0 12 15 0 LutonPCT **00400 MidEssexPCT 2300000 Norfolk PCT 47 9 * 60 109 27 NorthEastEssexPCT700000 Peterborough PCT * * 0 25 9 0 South East Essex PCT 9 7 0 38 55 0 South West Essex PCT 16 * 0 18 90 0 Suffolk PCT 16 8 0 29 69 0 West Essex PCT 11 * 0 30 12 0 West Hertfordshire PCT 10 * 0 20 2 0

London SHA BarkingandDagenhamPCT1200300 Barnet PCT 16 * 0 18 24 0 Bexley Care Trust 18 **331 Brent Teaching PCT 10 * 0 1 34 0 Bromley PCT 13 * 0 0 22 0 CamdenPCT 3000200 City and Hackney Teaching PCT 9*0040 Croydon PCT 11 * 0 25 8 0 Ealing PCT 7 11 0 10 134 0 Enfield PCT 37 * 0 15 4 0 Greenwich Teaching PCT 19 * 0 16 22 0 Hammersmith and Fulham PCT **00160 HaringeyTeachingPCT14*0060 Harrow PCT 12 * 0 19 13 0 631W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 632W

Number of finished admission episodes1 and number of finished consultant episode (FCE) bed days2 by method of admission3 with a primary diagnosis of chronic pain4 by primary care trust of residence5 2009-10 Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Finished admission episodes FCE bed days Primary care trust Elective Emergency Unknown Elective Emergency Unknown

Havering PCT 13 *0800 Hillingdon PCT 12 *0000 Hounslow PCT 8 * 0 12 32 0 Islington PCT 24 * 0 0 36 0 Kensington and Chelsea PCT * * 0 45 4 0 Lambeth PCT 13 0 0 0 25 0 LewishamPCT 29*0470 NewhamPCT 6*0030 RedbridgePCT 8*00620 Richmond and Twickenham PCT *00000 Southwark PCT 25 * 0 0 15 0 Sutton and Merton PCT 11 * 0 24 8 0 Tower hamlets PCT **0020 Waltham forest PCT 18 * 0 4 47 0 Wandsworth PCT 9 * 0 17 20 0 Westminster PCT 6*0400

North East SHA County Durham PCT 16 7 * 21 21 2 Gateshead PCT 0800290 Middlesbrough PCT 0*0050 Newcastle PCT 0*0030 North Tyneside PCT **0000 Northumberland Care Trust *00300 Redcar and Cleveland PCT **02160 South Tyneside PCT **0080 Stockton-on-Tees Teaching PCT 0*0020 Sunderland Teaching PCT **01160

North West SHA Ashton,LeighandWiganPCT45*0470 BlackburnwithDarwenPCT**0040 Blackpool PCT 0*00160 Bolton PCT 77 * 0 0 68 0 BuryPCT 130*0050 Central and Eastern Cheshire PCT 37 8 0 1 34 0 Central Lancashire PCT 65 * 0 9 28 0 Cumbria Teaching PCT 6 6 * 33 22 46 East Lancashire Teaching PCT 8*00150 Halton and St Helens PCT 32 * 0 9 25 0 Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale 134*0250 PCT Knowsley PCT 0*0060 Liverpool PCT * * 0 36 6 0 Manchester PCT 128 * 0 17 2 0 North Lancashire Teaching PCT 28 00600 Oldham PCT 16 * * 16 1 25 Salford PCT 609 0 0 10 0 0 Sefton PCT 0*00670 Stockport PCT 80 6 0 0 171 0 Tameside and Glossop PCT 224 * 0 11 61 0 Trafford PCT 105 6 0 0 77 0 Warrington PCT 43 * 0 4 10 0 Wirral PCT 10 * 0 22 39 0

South Central SHA BerkshireWestPCT1200000 Buckinghamshire PCT 8*0080 633W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 634W

Number of finished admission episodes1 and number of finished consultant episode (FCE) bed days2 by method of admission3 with a primary diagnosis of chronic pain4 by primary care trust of residence5 2009-10 Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Finished admission episodes FCE bed days Primary care trust Elective Emergency Unknown Elective Emergency Unknown

Hampshire PCT 60 13 * 213 91 58 Isle of Wight NHS PCT 0*00150 Milton Keynes PCT **0260 OxfordshirePCT *605860 Portsmouth City Teaching PCT * 0 0 14 0 0 Southampton City PCT * * 0 12 2 0 Swindon PCT * * 0 19 3 0

South East Coast SHA BerkshireEastPCT**00270 BrightonandHoveCityPCT**03120 East Sussex Downs and Weald PCT 10 * 0 19 13 0 Eastern and Coastal Kent PCT 15 7 0 44 133 0 Hastings and Rother PCT **0060 Medway PCT 8 * 0 19 7 0 Surrey PCT 51 9 0 247 31 0 West Kent PCT 34 6 0 3 42 0 West Sussex PCT 34 10 0 5 36 0

South West SHA Bath and North East Somerset PCT 0*0020 Bournemouth and Poole Teaching * * 0 16 22 0 PCT Bristol PCT 15 6 0 0 63 0 Cornwall and Isles of Scilly PCT 9 * 0 40 21 0 Devon PCT 10 7 * 48 16 5 Dorset PCT 6 * 0 21 54 0 Gloucestershire PCT 8602360 North Somerset PCT **02220 Plymouth Teaching PCT *00000 Somerset PCT 13 16 0 22 150 0 South Gloucestershire PCT **001100 TorbayCareTrust **02160 Wiltshire PCT * * 0 78 17 0

West Midlands SHA Birmingham East and North PCT * * 0 15 39 0 Coventry Teaching PCT * 0 0 37 0 0 Dudley PCT * * 0 21 6 0 Heart of Birmingham Teaching PCT 12 * 0 44 0 0 Herefordshire PCT * * 0 21 1 0 NorthStaffordshirePCT**0010 Sandwell PCT 16 *0140 Shropshire County PCT 6*0620 South Birmingham PCT * * 0 17 27 0 South Staffordshire PCT 26 * 0 14 74 0 Stoke on Trent PCT * * 0 18 2 0 TelfordandWrekinPCT*00400 Walsall Teaching PCT *00000 Warwickshire PCT 15 6 0 43 51 0 WolverhamptonCityPCT**00460 Worcestershire PCT 49 * 0 152 40 0

Yorkshire and Humber SHA Barnsley PCT ***574 Bradford and Airedale Teaching PCT 26 9 * 0 49 24 CalderdalePCT **0020 Doncaster PCT ***42511 635W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 636W

Number of finished admission episodes1 and number of finished consultant episode (FCE) bed days2 by method of admission3 with a primary diagnosis of chronic pain4 by primary care trust of residence5 2009-10 Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Finished admission episodes FCE bed days Primary care trust Elective Emergency Unknown Elective Emergency Unknown

East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 23 23 0 30 299 0 Hull Teaching PCT * 19 0 16 276 0 Kirklees PCT **00740 Leeds PCT 25 8 * 38 122 15 Lincolnshire Teaching PCT 22 14 0 5 185 0 North East Lincolnshire Care Trust *00000 Plus NorthLincolnshirePCT*00000 NorthYorkshireandYorkPCT88*11096 Rotherham PCT 10 9 0 1 37 0 Sheffield PCT 29 10 0 34 105 0 Wakefield District PCT **05190 1 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 2 Episode duration (FCE bed days) Episode duration is calculated as the difference in days between the episode start date and the episode end date, where both are given. Episode duration is based on finished consultant episodes and only applies to ordinary admissions, ie day cases are excluded (unless otherwise stated). 3 Method of admission This is the sum of the episode duration for all finished consultant episodes that ended within the financial year. This field does not include bed days where the episode was unfinished at the end of the financial year. To identify bed days as emergency bed days we have filtered the total bed days figures by admission method indicating the admission was an emergency (codes 21 to 24 and 28). 21 = Emergency: via Accident and Emergency (A&E) services, including the casualty department of the provider 22 = Emergency: via general practitioner (GP) 23 = Emergency: via Bed Bureau, including the Central Bureau 24 = Emergency: via consultant outpatient clinic 28 = Emergency: other means, including patients who arrive via the A&E department of another healthcare provider″ 4 Primary diagnosis The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and 7 prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. ICD-10 codes used: R52.1 - Chronic intractable pain R52.2 - Other chronic pain″ 5 SHA/PCT of residence The strategic health authority (SHA) or primary care trust (PCT) containing the patient’s normal home address. This does not necessarily reflect where the patient was treated as they may have travelled to another SHA/PCT for treatment. Note: Small numbers To protect patient confidentiality, figures between 1 and 5 have been replaced with “*” (an asterisk). Where it was still possible to identify numbers from the total an additional number (the next smallest) has been replaced. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care

Radiotherapy reference to the first annual report of the radiotherapy dataset, if he will take steps to increase the allocation of resources for radiotherapy treatment to Avon, Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Somerset and Wiltshire; [77644] pursuant to the answer of 10 October 2011, Official Report, column 311W, on radiotherapy, how many of (2) and with reference to the National Radiotherapy the members of the Specialised Service Transitional Implementation Group report, Stereotactic Body Oversight Group have a (a) medical and (b) financial Radiotherapy Treatment (SBRT) Guidelines for background. [77643] Commissioners, Providers and Clinicians in England 2011, for what reasons his Department considers there are insufficient patients with early stage inoperable lung Mr Simon Burns: Four members of Specialised Services cancer each year to introduce a national SBRT lung Transitional Oversight Group have a medical background. cancer tariff; [77645] Two members have been selected specifically for their clinical role namely David Black and Kathy McLean. (3) what guidance he has provided to commissioners on spending the additional funding for the expansion No member of the Group has a direct financial of radiotherapy capacity; [77951] background but a separate financial advisory group feeds into the deliberations of the Specialised Services (4) for what reasons the additional funding is not Transitional Oversight Group. ring-fenced for the purpose of expanding radiotherapy treatment. [77952] Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Burstow: “Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for pursuant to the answer of 10 October 2011, Official Cancer”, published in January 2011, set out our Report, column 310W, on radiotherapy, (1) and with commitment to expand radiotherapy capacity by investing 637W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 638W over £150 million of additional funding until 2014-15. Departmental Official Hospitality This funding, as well as existing funding for radiotherapy, is included in overall primary care trust (PCT) baseline Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales allocations which amount to around £85 billion nationally. how much her Department has spent on hospitality for The Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. staff since May 2010. [67527] Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), does not mandate how much PCTs are to spend on particular Mr David Jones: Nil. services within, these overall allocations. PCTs including those which commission services for Avon, Somerset Departmental Responsibilities and Wiltshire, have local discretion to decide how to use their overall allocation to commission services, including radiotherapy services, to meet the health care needs of Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales their local populations. at how many events organised by (a) charities, (b) other civil society groups, (c) businesses and (d) lobbying Work is under way nationally to develop radiotherapy organisations Ministers and senior officials in her tariffs and this will include consideration of a tariff Department have given speeches in each month since for Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy Treatment. The May 2010; and if she will make a statement. [77327] development and implementation of national tariffs for services such as radiotherapy is dependent on the existence and use of ’currencies’ which describe the service being Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my provided and which enable cost data to be collected, right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham which is then used to underpin tariff prices. For some (Mrs Gillan), and I, regularly speak at a variety of services with low activity volumes, setting a tariff on the events hosted by a variety of organisations. Presenting basis of limited cost data may not be appropriate, in the information in the format requested would incur which case there would continue to be local agreement disproportionate cost. Meetings with external organisations on price. are listed on the Wales Office’s website. The “NHS Operating Framework 2011-12” states that the national health service is expected to implement the new Cancer Strategy and that commissioners should develop plans to ensure that local populations have HOME DEPARTMENT appropriate access to radiotherapy treatment. Animal Experiments: EU Law Stem Cells: Medical Treatments Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for the John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Home Department whether draft regulations on the use how many stem cell transplants were approved in each of animals in scientific procedures transposing EU specialised commissioning group under (a) standard, Directive 2010/63/EU into UK law will be open for (b) clinical option and (c) developmental category in public consultation during the process of implementation. each of the last five years. [77779] [77426]

Anne Milton: The Department does not hold a record Lynne Featherstone: Preliminary work on the preparation of the number of stem cell transplants approved by of draft legislation to transpose European Directive each specialised commissioning group in the national 2010/63/EU has begun. We will seek input from individuals health service. and groups with an interest at appropriate points in the detailed drafting process.

Asylum WALES

Departmental Assets Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many failed Tamil asylum seekers have been returned to Sri Lanka in each month since Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales May 2010; and if she will make a statement. [77341] what assets with a value of £250,000 or more her Department has bought since May 2010; for what Damian Green: The UK Border Agency does not purpose; and if she will make a statement. [77385] record specific data regarding an individual’s ethnicity. Mr David Jones: No such assets have been purchased. The information can be provided only at disproportionate cost as it would require a manual search of individual Departmental Lost Property case files. The UK Border Agency can identify that between Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 1 May 2010 and 30 September 2011, 573 failed asylum whether her Department has lost any (a) computers, seekers have been returned to Sri Lanka. (b) mobile telephones, (c) BlackBerrys and (d) other IT equipment since May 2010; and if she will make a Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for the statement. [77384] Home Department what her assessment is of the extent of progress by the Greek government in implementing Mr David Jones: No such equipment has been lost. its National Action Plan for Managed Migration and 639W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 640W

Asylum Reform; and when she expects to be able to Deportation: North Africa resume Dublin regulation returns of asylum seekers from the UK to Greece. [77846] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people were returned to Damian Green [holding answer 1 November 2011]: (a) Libya, (b) Algeria and (c) Tunisia under the Since publication of the Greek Action Plan on Managed provisions of memoranda of understanding in each of Migration and Asylum Reform last year there have the last five years. [77050] been some notable improvements to the overall asylum system. These include an increase in the recognition of Damian Green: The following table shows the total refugee status from less than 1% to 12% and improvements number of removals and voluntary departures of Libyan, in training for decision makers, qualifications for interpreters Algerian and Tunisian nationals from the UK to their and developments to reception facilities for unaccompanied respective countries of origin in each year from 2006 to minors. The Greek Ministry of Citizen Protection has 2010. also appointed directors for the newly established Asylum Removals and voluntary departures1,2 of Algerian, Libyan and Service and First Reception Service which are due to be Tunisian nationals to their country of origin3—January 2006 to up and running next year. December 2010 However, there is still much more progress needed Number of departures and the Government remains concerned about the lack 2006 2007 2008 2009 20104 of improvements to the poor detention conditions, Total removals and particularly at the Greek-Turkish border. We will continue voluntary departures to apply pressure on Greece to treat this area as a of: matter of urgency. Algerian nationals to 378 390 441 342 249 Successful delivery of the Greek Action Plan will Algeria Libyan nationals to 104 109 102 149 209 ensure that Greece meets its international obligations Libya towards asylum seekers. We will monitor the situation Tunisian nationals to 30 34 25 32 43 and progress made. When it is clear to us that Greece is Tunisia meeting its obligations in practice, and that as a result 1 Includes enforced removals, persons departing voluntarily after the criticisms detailed in the ruling by the European notifying the UK Border Agency of their intention to leave prior to Court of Human Rights on 21 January 2011 in the case their departure, persons leaving under Assisted Voluntary Return of MSS v. Belgium and Greece have been addressed, we Programmes run by the International Organisation for Migration and will seek to resume Dublin Regulation returns. persons who it has been established left the UK without informing the immigration authorities. 2 Removals and voluntary departures recorded on the system as at the Crimes of Violence: Young Offenders dates on which the data extracts were taken. 3 Destination as recorded on source database. 4 Provisional figures. Figures may under record due to data cleansing Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for the and data matching exercises that take place after the extracts are Home Department how many violent offences where taken. the victim and perpetrator were under 18 years old were The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual categorised as (a) detected, (b) undetected, (c) live statistics on the number of persons removed or departed and (d) victim declined to prosecute in each (i) London voluntarily from the UK within ‘Immigration Statistics’. borough and (ii) police force area in each of the last five The data on removals and voluntary departures are years. [78025] available in tables rv.01 to rv.08 from the Library of the House and from the Home Office Science, research and statistics web pages at: James Brokenshire [holding answer 1 November 2011]: The requested data on violent offences where the victim http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ and the alleged perpetrator were under 18 years old are not available centrally, and could be collated only at Entry Clearances disproportionate cost. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Consultants the Home Department how many Tier Four visa holders had left the UK on completion of their studies as of 1 September (a) 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011. [77800] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many full-time equivalent staff Damian Green: The UK Border Agency is not able to are employed on consultancy contracts in her provide the information requested. The e-Borders system Department; and if she will make a statement. [77493] enables checks to be made on individuals arriving or exiting the country at a majority of the points of entry Damian Green: The Home Office commercial objectives to the UK but will not be fully rolled out until 2015. require consultancy services to be commissioned in terms of defined output, not in terms of individuals Fireworks assigned by the firms to deliver that output. Therefore, the Department does not employ individuals under Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for the contracts for consultancy services or keep records of Home Department what representations she has how many individuals are working on each consultancy received on amending legislation in respect of the sale engagement. Carrying out an exercise to obtain these of fireworks to limit their purchase to one week before numbers would incur disproportionate cost. 5 November. [77144] 641W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 642W

Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply as I have sentence and were not being detained for immigration responsibility for fireworks legislation. purposes in (a) May 2009 and (b) May 2010. [78032] I have received no representations on amending legislation in respect of the sale of fireworks to limit their purchase Damian Green [holding answer 1 November 2011]: In to one week before 5 November. May 2009 there were 2,483 foreign national offenders who had not been removed at the end of their sentence Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for the and were not being detained for Immigration purposes. Home Department whether (a) she or (b) officials of In May 2010, there were 3,808. her Department have met representatives of the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals to discuss their proposals in respect of the sale of fireworks. [77143] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply as I have Carbon Emissions: EU Law responsibility for fireworks legislation. Neither I, nor officials within this Department, have met representatives of the Scottish Society for the Prevention Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy of Cruelty to Animals to discuss their proposals in and Climate Change whether it is his policy that the UK respect of the sale of fireworks. should exceed the minimum requirements for EU carbon dioxide reductions. [77815] Gangs Gregory Barker: The UK’s 2020 target of a reduction Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for the in greenhouse gases of at least 34%, as laid down under Home Department how many gangs have been identified the Climate Change Act is consistent with the UK’s in (a) each London borough and (b) each police force share of the overall EU targets under the Climate and area in each of the last five years. [78031] Energy package agreed on 12 December 2008, which sets the EU policy framework for the period 2013 to James Brokenshire [holding answer 1 November 2011]: 2020. Data on gangs has not been systematically captured in The Government set the level for the fourth carbon the UK. However evidence suggests that gang membership budget (2023-27) at 1,950 MtCO2e, which is equivalent is relatively rare though it can be a serious problem in to an average reduction of 50% over the period, from specific areas. The Association of Chief Police Officers the 1990 baseline. Meeting the fourth carbon budget is undertaking an exercise to map gang activity in some depends on progress on the EU 2020 target up to 2020, forces in England, and will report by the end of the the 2050 roadmap beyond and the UK share of the EU year. ETS. Whether or not we manage to reduce emissions by the amount required to meet carbon budgets will depend Hillsborough Independent Panel on the level of the UK’s share of the EU ETS cap. The UK is pushing for the EU to show more ambition by Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the moving to a tighter 2020 emissions target, which in turn Home Department pursuant to the answer of 24 October will drive a more stringent EU ETS cap. 2011, Official Report, column 45W, on Hillsborough If by 2014 our UK commitments place us on a Stadium, whether papers submitted by South Yorkshire different emissions trajectory than the EU ETS trajectory Police to the Government concerning the Hillsborough agreed by the EU, we will, as appropriate, revise up our disaster will be treated as Government papers. [77568] budget to align it with the actual EU trajectory.

Mrs May [holding answer 31 October 2011]: All Departmental Consultants papers held by Government in relation to the Hillsborough disaster, including papers submitted to Government by outside organisations, have been made available, in full Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and uncensored, to the Hillsborough Independent Panel. and Climate Change how many full-time equivalent staff are employed on consultancy contracts in his Migration Department; and if he will make a statement. [77490]

Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: DECC employed one consultant as the Home Department by what date she expects to of 30 September 2011. Full details of DECC staffing reduce net migration to tens of thousands. [74514] information can be found on the DECC website by following this link: Mrs May: We expect the Government’s policies to http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/accesstoinform/ reduce net migration to Britain to the tens of thousands about_decc/about_decc.aspx by the end of the Parliament. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Prisoners’ Release: Foreign Nationals and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2011, Official Report, columns 185-86W, on Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the departmental procurement, how many of the contracts Home Department how many foreign national prisoners referred to were for consultancy services; and if he will had not been removed at the end of their custodial make a statement. [77507] 643W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 644W

Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and licensing rounds, applicants wishing to explore for shale Climate Change has advertised 40 contracts on the gas will have to demonstrate that they have the appropriate Contracts Finder website since May 2010. 12 of these competences and management systems, including systems contracts were for consultancy services. to ensure protection of the environment. In addition we will be ensuring that the area and quality of the acreage Energy awarded will not exceed the capacity of the industry, both the oil companies and their supply chain, to deliver Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for their proposed work programmes both in a timely manner Energy and Climate Change what plans his Department and to the highest of standards. has to mark the International Yearof Sustainable Energy Overall, we consider that the regulatory system governing for All in 2012. [78104] UK onshore oil and gas developments, including shale gas, is robust, and that the key regulatory bodies have Gregory Barker: The Department for Energy and appropriate powers to regulate these activities. I have Climate Change is working with the Department for accordingly no present plans for new legislation. International Development to develop plans for UK engagement, including through the UN Secretary General’s Sustainable Energy For All initiative, which aims to Warm Home Discount Scheme achieve universal access to energy, improved energy efficiency and enhanced deployment of renewable energy. Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for DECC will support this through their work with DFID Energy and Climate Change how many people (a) to develop programmes on energy access and sustainable nationally and (b) in Milton Keynes unitary authority energy under the International Climate Fund. area have participated in the warm home discount scheme. [78247] Energy: Meters Gregory Barker: The Warm Home Discount Scheme Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for launched on 1 April 2011 and covers Great Britain. It Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to will run for four years until end March 2015. The total take in respect of his smart meter rollout to ensure that number of people who have been supported in 2011-12 the system is secure against hacking by third parties. is not yet known, but an estimated 2 million people are [77847] expected to be helped and the scheme will be worth up to £250 million this year. Charles Hendry: The Government are putting robust Help will be provided in four ways, through: arrangements in place for the security of the smart The Core Group—this will provide energy supplier funded metering system, which have been informed by a rigorous rebates (worth £120 in winter 2011-12) on electricity bills for risk assessment. DECC has a dedicated team of security people who receive pension credit guarantee credit only and meet experts within the Smart Metering Implementation some other eligibility criteria. Over 600,000 rebates are expected Programme, who perform ongoing risk assessments in to be provided this winter. order to identify the nature of possible threats, including The Broader Group—this will provide energy supplier funded hacking by third parties. rebates (worth £120 in winter 2011-12) on electricity bills for a Security requirements are being developed to minimise: Broader Group of low income and vulnerable people determined (i) the likelihood of such an event taking place, and by each energy supplier and agreed with Ofgem. (ii) the impact should it occur. The development of Continued help via existing social or discounted fuel tariffs. these requirements has involved extensive consultation This will decrease over each year of the scheme as the number of people receiving a rebate in the Broader Group grows. with other Government Departments and relevant agencies, as well as with industry. Support through industry initiatives carried out by the energy suppliers to provide support to tackle fuel poverty other than We have a comprehensive risk assessment and we are direct discounts on energy bills e.g. debt help lines or the provision developing a plan for implementation, which will specify of energy advice for low income and vulnerable consumers. These the enduring security governance roles and responsibilities will be approved by Ofgem in line with the scheme requirements. to ensure risks are appropriately managed. Regional or, unitary breakdowns are not available. Natural Gas: Exploration

Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy TRANSPORT and Climate Change what (a) policy and (b) legislative proposals he plans to bring forward in respect of the regulation of shale gas exploration. [77971] Departmental Procurement

Charles Hendry: Shale gas exploration is relatively Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport new to the UK and in its early stages and my Department what account her Department takes of (a) socio-economic and other key regulatory bodies, including the Health factors and (b) potential revenues for the Exchequer in and Safety Executive, the Environment Agency, and the the awarding of contracts. [76553] Scottish Environment Protection Agency, are working closely together to ensure effective monitoring and Norman Baker: Public sector procurers are required appropriate control of these activities. to assess value for money from the perspective of the As is already the case, applicants for licences have to contracting authority using criteria linked to the subject demonstrate that they have the technical and economic matter of the contract, including compliance with the means to conduct operations properly. In future onshore published specification. 645W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 646W

Wider socio-economic benefits that do not accrue to 2007 the contracting authority cannot be taken into account One incident—East of Lerwick at tender evaluation stage as they do not relate to the 2008 subject matter of a contract from the point of view of the contracting authority. Three incidents—north of Strathy Point (between Cape Wrath and Dunnet Head); north of Cape Wrath; and west of Skye, An assessment of public procurement tendering is Little Minch being undertaken as part of the growth review. It is 2009 intended that the outcome of this assessment will be announced at the end of November. One incident—Lerwick, Shetland 2010 Large Goods Vehicles Five incidents—north of Cape Wrath; east of Copinsay, Orkney; west of Skye Bridge: south of Rhum; and Glendanda Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 2011 what the status is of her Department’s proposed increase Two incidents—north-east of Berwick—later berthed Dundee; in maximum trailer size for articulated heavy goods and north north-east Lerwick vehicles; and what assessment she has made of the potential effects of the increase on (a) levels of cyclists’ Shipping: Safety safety and (b) the environment. [74179]

Mike Penning: The Government have just published Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport their response to the consultation on the use of longer what steps she plans to take to ensure that emergency semi-trailers, including a revised impact assessment which towing vessels are available for spot-purchasing at the takes account of additional information provided in the time of a reported emergency. [74165] course of the consultation. This is available on: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2011-06 Mike Penning [holding answer 13 October 2011]: Because the Government consider ship salvage to be a The impact assessment covers both environmental impact commercial matter there are no plans to ensure the and safety, but does not disaggregate the safety risk provision of emergency towing vessels for spot purchase. between different categories of road user. Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Railway Stations: Greater London Transport what average time she expects to elapse between the time of an emergency call-out of a training Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for vessel to (a) the spot purchase of an emergency towing Transport what recent discussions her Department has vessel and (b) the arrival of such a vessel on the scene had with (a) the Association of Train Operating Companies of the incident. [74166] and (b) Transport for London on the re-zoning of overground train stations in Kingston and Surbiton. Mike Penning [holding answer 13 October 2011]: It is [77792] not possible to be specific about the timetable that would be associated with the provision of salvage in Mrs Villiers: No recent discussions on this subject emergency towing. have been held either with the Association of Train Operating Companies or with Transport for London. Among other things the time to scene will depend on market conditions within the towing and salvage industries, the geographic disposition of vessels and their suitability Railways: Concessions to the task. Since 1 October 2011 the Scotland Office has been Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for responsible for leading efforts to secure a long-term Transport what the cost to the public purse was of replacement for the emergency towing vessel (ETV) travel concessions issued to former employees of British service in waters around Scotland surrounding the Northern Rail in each year since 1997. [61365] and Western Isles. Norman Baker: The information is not held by the Department for Transport as the costs of providing Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport concessionary travel to retired former employees of what estimate she has made of the number of emergency British Rail is met by the Association of Train Operating towing vessels that can be spot-purchased. [74176] Companies. Mike Penning [holding answer 13 October 2011]: It is Rescue Services not possible to estimate or accurately forecast the number of emergency towing vessels available at either a suitable time or place to service a spot-purchase when needed. Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport at what locations the coastguard has used The principal towage and salvage brokers monitor emergency towing vessels in operations off the Scottish the towage market continually and track the availability coast in the last five years. [74120] of tugs. The brokers provide the Maritime and Coastguard Mike Penning: The Maritime and Coastguard Agency Agency (MCA) with real-time information that they has tasked an emergency towing vessel to the following can use when coordinating a response to drifting and locations in Scottish waters in the years 2007 to 2011. disabled ships. 647W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 648W

Since 1 October 2011 the Scotland Office has been on prudential requirements for credit institutions and responsible for leading efforts to secure a long-term investment firms, which the Commission adopted proposals replacement for the emergency towing vessel (ETV) for on 20 July 2011. service in waters around Scotland surrounding the Northern and Western Isles. Civil Servants: Pensions Shipping: Scotland Dr Phillip Lee: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many retired civil servants received pre-tax pensions what discussions her Department has had with the of over (a) £50,000 and (b) £100,000 per year in the private maritime sector in Scotland on proposed changes last year for which figures are available. [77429] to the maritime safety, emergency salvage and rescue Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply. operations in Scotland. [73646] As at 31 October 2011 there were 484,500 former civil Mike Penning [holding answer 13 October 2011]: The servants in receipt of a pension from the Principal Civil proposals for the modernisation of Her Majesty’s Service Pension Scheme. Of these, 969 were receiving Coastguard have been subject to two UK wide consultations pre-tax pensions over £50,000 per annum including 12 since December 2010. These consultations have included who were in receipt of pre-tax pensions over £100,000 the private maritime sector. per annum. Meetings were convened to discuss and consider the arrangements for emergency towage and salvage, following Departmental Consultants the end of the contract for the provision of emergency towing vessels (ETVs). These included a wide range of Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer participants from a broad spectrum of maritime interests, how many full-time equivalent staff are employed on including tug operators, commercial and Ministry of consultancy contracts in his Department; and if he will Defence salvors, and shipping industry representatives, make a statement. [77484] in addition to port authorities, lighthouse authorities, local government authorities and officials for the Scottish Miss Chloe Smith: HM Treasury does not capture Government. and/or record the quantity of resource deployed by Since 1 October 2011 the Scotland Office has been suppliers, who are responsible for managing their resources responsible for leading efforts to secure a long-term to deliver the outcomes as agreed in these contracts. replacement for the emergency towing vessel (ETV) This information could be provided only at a service in waters around Scotland surrounding the Northern disproportionate cost. and Western Isles. Equitable Life Assurance Society

TREASURY Alun Cairns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will assess the findings of the investigation by the Banks: Finance Equitable Members Action Group Ltd and David Forfar in respect of pre-1992 with profits annuitants; Owen Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and if he will make a statement. [77617] what recent assessment he has made of the optimal leverage ratio for UK banks. [77430] Mr Hoban: I am aware of Mr Forfar’s work, but the exclusion of pre-September 1992 with profits annuitants Mr Hoban: The optimal level of leverage will depend is determined not by their investment performance but on the risk profile of the assets and exposures which by the application of the ombudsman’s report. vary from bank to bank and over time. Given a lack of consistent time series data and the presence of varying Monetary Policy bank business models, it is not possible to determine with a high level of confidence an optimal leverage ratio Mr Blunkett: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a wide range of banks and over an extended period what assessment his Department has made about of time. However there is evidence that banks can be whether quantitative easing is a necessary condition for excessively leveraged and the Basel Committee on Banking his Department’s plans for credit easing. [77781] Supervision (BCBS) has published relevant analysis, indicating that banks which had particularly high levels Mr Hoban: The purpose of quantitative easing (QE) of leverage prior to the financial crisis were more likely is to provide the independent Monetary Policy Committee to experience stress during that period. Further details (MPC) with an additional policy tool to low interest of the BCBS’s analysis can be found at: rates, which can be used to support nominal demand in http://www.bis.org/publ/bcbs180.pdf the economy in order to meet the inflation target in the As part of the Basel III agreement, the Basel Committee medium term. on Banking Supervision agreed to introduce a non-risked The Government are considering options on credit based leverage ratio to constrain the build-up of leverage easing. Such interventions should complement the MPC’s in the banking sector and provide a backstop to risk QE. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. weight based capital requirements. This will help reduce Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), will provide more the leverage ratio for banks to a more sustainable level. details on credit easing at the Autumn Statement on In the EU, Basel III will be implemented through legislation 29 November. 649W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 650W

National Insurance Contributions: Gedling departmental procurement, whether any of the contracts are for providing consulting services with full-time equivalent Vernon Coaker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer staff working for his Department; and if he will make a how many businesses in Gedling constituency have statement. [77510] participated in the National Insurance contribution holiday scheme since its introduction. [67300] John Penrose: None of the contracts are for providing consulting services with full-time equivalent staff working Mr Gauke: As of 25 October 2011, HMRC has for this Department. received 8,761 successful applications for the NICs holiday. A breakdown by constituency, information on the amounts Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, claimed and jobs supported will be published in the Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of NICs holiday factsheet in the House of Commons 18 October 2011, Official Report, columns 856-58W, on Library in the autumn. departmental procurement, whether any of the contracts Research and Development Tax Credit were not put out to tender; and for what reasons. [77511] Julian Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many small and medium-sized enterprises claimed John Penrose: In accordance with departmental policy, research and development tax relief in the last year for some low value contracts (under £1,000) were not put which figures are available. [77672] out to tender as it would not have been cost-effective for either the Department or the potential supplier. In a Mr Gauke: Numbers of companies claiming R and D small number of other cases there was only one suitable tax credits each year under the scheme for small and supplier with the expertise and capability of delivering medium-sized enterprises are published on the HM the very specific service the contract demanded, however, Revenue and Customs website at: again, these examples only affected contracts of low http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/ monetary value. randdtcmenu.htm Third Sector Departmental Public Expenditure Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether he has received representations concerning Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) the Big Society Bank, (b) the Work Programme Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he receives and (c) volunteering since June 2011; and if he will any external funding for (a) his ministerial office and make a statement; [75069] (b) his advisers; and what the (i) source and (ii) amount (2) what discussions he has had about promoting is of any such funding. [78014] social enterprises within his Department’s area of responsibility in each month since May 2010; and if he John Penrose: The Secretary of State for Culture, will make a statement. [77019] Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), receives no Miss Chloe Smith [holding reply sent 27 October 2011]: external funding for his ministerial office or special Treasury Ministers and officials receive representations advisers. from a variety of organisations in the public and private sectors as part of the process of policy development and delivery. As was the case with the previous Third Sector Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such meetings and discussions. Details of meetings between Treasury Ministers and Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, external organisations are published quarterly on the Olympics, Media and Sport how much funding his HMT website. Department has provided in grant in aid to each arm’s length body for which he is responsible in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and how much he expects to allocate to each body in (i) 2012-13, (ii) 2013-14 and (iii) 2014-15. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT [77721] Departmental Procurement John Penrose: The grant in aid shown in the following Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, table has been, or is planned to be, made available to the Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of Department’s arm’s length bodies for the period 2010-11 18 October 2011, Official Report, columns 856-58W, on to 2014-15:

Grant in aid £ million Body 2010-111 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15

British Museum 46.343 53.664 44.016 43.393 43.267 Natural History Museum 48.586 46.480 45.760 45.204 45.172 651W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 652W

Grant in aid £ million Body 2010-111 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15

Imperial War Museum 23.910 21.706 21.436 21.239 21.273 National Gallery 28.201 26.744 26.320 25.980 25.911 National Maritime Museum 19.002 17.058 16.848 16.693 16.723 National Museums Liverpool 23.712 21.875 21.561 21.323 21.327 National Portrait Gallery 7.577 7.398 7.277 7.183 7.172 National Museum of Science and Industry 40.153 37.582 37.026 36.602 36.596 Tate Gallery 54.729 34.605 34.912 34.837 33.441 Victoria and Albert Museum 44.318 41.355 40.705 40:203 40.167 Wallace Collection 4.212 2.983 2.946 2.918 2.922 Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester 4.882 3.998 3.927 3.871 3.860 Sir John Soane’s Museum 1.169 1.130 1.111 1.096 1.094 Horniman Museum 4.518 4.275 4.199 4.139 4.127 Geffrye Museum 1.773 1.674 1.645 1.621 1.616 Royal Armouries 8.389 7.901 7.773 7.673 7.662 British Library 105.847 107.473 96.286 93,544 93.407 Public Lending Right 7.451 7,218 7.084 6.977 6.956 Museums, Libraries and Archives Council2 15.218 6.526 — — — Arts Council England 437.523 387.729 359.179 351.620 349.393 Sport England 121.389 95.391 93.690 87.692 85.896 United Kingdom Sports Council 55.363 60.301 65.316 39.330 43.345 United Kingdom Anti-Doping 6.372 6.344 6.498 6.164 5.852 Football Licensing Authority 0.980 1.197 1.176 1.158 1.142 English Heritage 129.854 114.743 103.362 97.764 96.961 Churches Conservation Trust 3.162 2.926 2.828 2.743 2.695 Commission for Architecture and the Built 4.690 3.427 — — — Environment2 National Heritage Memorial Fund 0.000 0.000 5.000 10.000 5.000 The Royal Parks 17.094 15.710 15.027 14.426 13.857 VisitBritain (including VisitEngland) 40.323 35.892 33.092 30.892 28.708 UK Film Council2 45.563 ———— Welsh Fourth Channel Authority (S4C)3 99.647 90.000 83.000 6.700 7.000 Gambling Commission 0.481 ———— Olympic Delivery Authority4 971.260 1066.100 569.100 7.300 105.000 1 2010-11 figures represent final outturn data. 2 Denotes bodies which are being abolished. 3 From 2013-14, S4C will receive additional funding from the BBC. 4 Net capital receipts assumed in spending review during 2014-15.

World War I: Anniversaries COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Civil Servants: Procurement Mr Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what plans his Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has to mark the 100th anniversary of the Communities and Local Government what estimate he start of the First World War. [76064] has made of the cost of employing civil servants to undertake procurement for his Department in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11; and what Mr Vaizey [holding answer 21 October 2011]: estimate he has made of the cost of (i) employing civil Traditionally, we mark the anniversary of the conclusion servants and (ii) engaging consultants to undertake of a conflict rather than its beginning. So the main procurement for his Department in 2011-12. [73193] commemorations will be on the centenary of the end of the First World War in 1918. However, given the importance Robert Neill: The total pay costs (including employer’s of the centenary of world war one, a number of contributions) of employing permanent civil servants anniversaries of key events from 2014 to 2018, including to undertake procurement are given in the following the beginning of the war, will be marked in an appropriate table (which also includes the cost of Agency staff way. The Prime Minister has asked my hon. Friend the during this period): Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) to act as his special representative and coordinator for world £ war one commemorations. Dr Murrison will work with 2008-9 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 international partners to ensure that the UK plays a full Permanent staff 732,141 1,140,377 1,347,115 1,335,000 and active role; and will coordinate the cross-Whitehall Agency staff 42,247 44,306 10,145 0 effort in respect of the commemorations. 653W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 654W

Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and £ Local Government uses Defence Business Services National 2008-9 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Security Vetting to undertake security vetting at Total staff 774,388 1,184,683 1,357,260 1,335,000 (a) counter terrorist check, (b) security check and (c) developed vetting level. In 2009-10 the overall number of procurement staff was increased to address a number of performance Departmental Travel related issues raised after a review of the Department’s procurement capability. During this period agency staff were used as a temporary measure. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department’s business plan estimates expenditure Communities and Local Government how much his of £1.3 million on employing civil servants to undertake Department has spent on first class travel by (a) air, procurement in the current year, 2011-12. The Department (b) boat and (c) train since May 2010. [75524] has no plans to engage consultants to undertake procurement and has made no estimates of the cost of Robert Neill: The following table details the Department’s engaging such consultants. expenditure on first class travel from the last financial year and the current financial year: The Department’s procurement team managed £222 million of expenditure in 2010-11. The work involved Financial year contract management of existing contractual arrangements 1st Class and tendering new requirements. Travel 2009-10 2010-11 2011-121 Departmental Advertising Boat 0 0 0 Air 945 0 0 Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Train 199,516 28.479 12,178 Communities and Local Government how much his 1 To 14 September 2011 Department has spent on advertising job vacancies These figures are taken from management information since May 2010. [75649] supplied by the Department’s travel management company. These figures show how this Government are making Robert Neill: My Department has not spent any significant savings in the running of the Department money directly on job advertising since May 2010. compared to the waste and excess that was a hallmark It did spend £1,614 on a fee to an executive search of the last administration. agency for a senior post; this was initially commissioned in April 2010 under the last Administration. EU Grants and Loans To place such spending in context, the Department spent £601,605 on advertising (of all types) in 2009-10. Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government when he plans to Departmental Procurement allocate funds received from the European Regional Development Fund to projects in the English regions. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for [77808] Communities and Local Government what contracts of a monetary value of (a) between £100,000 and £500,000, Grant Shapps: The English European Regional (b) between £500,000 and £1 million, (c) between Development Fund programmes are currently allocating £1 million and £5 million, (d) between £5 million and funds and have until the end of 2015 to complete £10 million, (e) between £10 million and £50 million, spending. (f) between £50 million and £100 million, (g) between £100 million and £500 million, (h) between £500 million Local Government: Consultants and £1 billion, (i) between £1 billion and £5 billion and (j) over £5 billion his Department and its predecessors have entered into with private suppliers in each year Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for since 1990. [74209] Communities and Local Government which private sector companies are providing free consultancy services Robert Neill: The information requested could be to each local authority; and what the nature of the obtained only at disproportionate cost. services provided is in each case. [36436] In accordance with the Government’s transparency agenda the Department is publishing all contract awards Robert Neill: Information on which private sector from January 2011 on the Contracts Finder website: companies are providing free consultancy to local authorities http://www.contractsfinder.co.uk is not collected centrally by the Department for Communities and Local Government. Departmental Security Tenants Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what company or Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Government service is used to undertake security vetting Communities and Local Government what consideration at (a) counter terrorist check, (b) security check and he has given to housing tenure reform as part of the big (c) developed vetting level in his Department. [77868] society initiative. [77755] 655W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 656W

Andrew Stunell: The Government have embarked on Aircraft type In-service fleet (number) a radical programme to shift power from Whitehall to the local level—to councils, housing associations and Sea King Mk 3/3a 25 communities. Through the Localism Bill we are reforming SeaKingMk4 37 the social housing system to make it fairer, striking a SeaKingMk5 16 proper balance between the needs of new and existing SeaKingMk7 13 tenants. Sentinel 5 There will be no change to the security and rights of Sentry 7 existing social tenants. Tornado 136 Tri-Star 8 Tucano 91 Typhoon 82 DEFENCE VC10 12 Vigilant 65 Armed Forces: Military Aircraft Viking 82

Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Armed Forces: Recruitment Defence (1) how many (a) maintenance crew and (b) airframes there are in the (i) RAF, (ii) Fleet Air Arm and (iii) Army Air Corps; [R] [77535] Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many aircraft per squadron there are in the Defence how many of the 2011 intake at joint services (a) RAF, (b) Fleet Air Arm and (c) Army Air Corps; command and staff college are from the (a) Army, (b) RAF and (c) Royal Navy. [R] [77537] [R] [77536]

Peter Luff: Aircraft maintenance is carried out by Peter Luff: As at 31 October 2011 the Joint Services service personnel, Ministry of Defence civilians and as Command and Staff College had the following UK part of contractual agreements with industry across all military students on courses: three services. Relevant data are not held in the format requested and could be provided only at disproportionate Royal Navy/ Royal cost. Marines/Royal Royal Air Information on the number of aircraft per squadron Course Fleet Auxiliary Army Force is not held centrally and could be provided only at Advanced Command 55 66 66 disproportionate cost. The number of aircraft assigned and Staff Course to front line squadrons will vary on a daily basis according Intermediate 47 154 54 to normal fleet management activities, including Command and Staff requirements for mandated maintenance and upgrade Courses programmes. Total 102 220 120 The number of aircraft in-service with the RAF, Fleet Air Arm and Army Air Corps is provided in the Armed Forces: Young People following table.

Aircraft type In-service fleet (number) Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps his Department has taken to review Apache 67 its policy on minimum age recruitment to the armed BAE 146 2 services since the UK’s ratification of the Optional BAE125 6 Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child C-17 7 on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict in Chinook Mk 2/2a 38 2003. [78043] Chinook Mk 3 8 Defender Mk 1 9 Peter Luff: We remain fully committed to meeting Gazelle 35 our obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights Hawk T1 129 of the Child Optional Protocol on the Involvement of Hawk T2 28 Children in Armed Conflict, and have taken steps to Hercules C130K 8 bestow special safeguards on young people under the Hercules C130J 24 age of 18, including the introduction of administrative Islander Mk 1 3 guidelines to ensure that they are withdrawn from units Islander Mk 2 3 which are deploying on operations. We believe that our King Air 4 policies on under 18s in service are robust and comply LynxMk3 13 with national and international law. The minimum age at which individuals may join the armed forces remains Lynx Mk 7 50 at 16 years, which broadly reflects the minimum statutory LynxMk8 33 school leaving age. There are no plans to change this. Lynx Mk 9/9a 22 Merlin Mk 1 42 We take pride in the fact that our armed forces Merlin Mk 3/3a 28 provide challenging and constructive education, training Puma 31 and employment opportunities for young people equipping them with valuable and transferable skills. 657W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 658W

Armoured Fighting Vehicles The costs do include the impact of foreign exchange variations which accounts for an element of the increase Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for between years 2008-09 and 2009-10, along with an Defence if he will estimate the value of the work for increase in training activity at BATUS across the same each of the sub-contractors in the Lockheed Martin period. UK Warrior Transformation Team. [77646] Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff: This is a matter for Lockheed Martin UK Defence what assessment he has made of the likely who has responsibility for these sub-contracts. effect on the cost of army training facilities of transferring such facilities from Germany to the British Army Training Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Unit Suffield. [77282] Defence if he will estimate what proportion of the monetary value of the work on the Warrior Capability Peter Luff: The training that currently takes place in Sustainment Programme will be undertaken in (a) Germany is unit-level training and similar training also Scotland, (b) England, (c) Wales, (d) Northern Ireland takes place in the UK. This training is conducted close and (e) overseas over the course of that contract. to where individual units are based and we do not [77647] anticipate this changing in the future. The training that takes place in the British Army Training Unit, Suffield Peter Luff: The Warrior Capability Sustainment (B ATUS) is higher level collective training, where a Programme will create and sustain approximately 600 number of units join together to form battle groups for British jobs within prime contractor, Lockheed Martin large scale exercises in preparation for deployment. For UK and its supply chain, representing 90% UK content, this reason, no assessment has been made of the costs as the programme moves through the demonstration of transferring Germany-based training facilities to the and manufacture phases. As a percentage of total contract BATUS. value, approximately 83% of the work will be carried out in England, 7% in Scotland and 10% overseas. The monetary value of sub-contracts that contribute Clyde Submarine Base to the overall programme is a matter for Lockheed Martin UK. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate the cost of the refurbishment AWE Aldermaston of the explosives handling jetty at RNAD Coulport. [77648] Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the projected cost is of the Technology Mr Robathan: The latest estimated total cost (including Development Centre to be built at Aldermaston. VAT) of the refurbishment of the explosives handling [77578] jetty at RNAD Coulport is £31.70 million. The project is on budget and on target to reach Peter Luff: I am withholding the information as its completion in December this year, approximately six disclosure would prejudice commercial interests and months ahead of the original programme. impact on the formulation or development of Government policy. Departmental Responsibilities British Army Training Unit Suffield Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for how many applications from employees to run services Defence how much his Department has spent on the for which his Department is directly responsible he has British Army Training Unit Suffield in each of the last received since May 2010; and if he will make a statement. 10 years. [77242] [77609] Peter Luff: Records of the amount the Ministry of Defence (MOD) has spent on the British Army Training Mr Robathan: There have been no formal applications Unit Suffield (BATUS) only exist for the last five years to date. However, the Ministry of Defence continues to and are provided in the following table: provide support to employees from two business areas as they consider whether to make an application. Financial year £ million

2006-07 32.5 IRG 2007-08 39.8 2008-09 38.9 2009-10 58.0 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 55.3 Defence whether his Department has awarded any contracts to IRG Ltd. [77160] These figures exclude manpower costs for military and MOD civil servants, and also for stock consumption, Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence’s contracts database since these costs would be incurred wherever the Army has no record of contracts placed with Iraq Research is training. Group Ltd in recent years. 659W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 660W

Italy: Unmanned Air Vehicles £ Uganda Burundi Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the outcome was of discussions between 2008-09 0 0 his Department and the Italian Government on medium 2009-10 0 25,000 altitude long endurance unmanned aerial vehicles. 2010-11 430,000 199,000 [77283] Technical support to AMISOM operations is also funded through the Conflict Pool and paid for by both Peter Luff: Recent engagements between the UK the FCO and the MOD. It has amounted to: Ministry of Defence and Italian Government have provided both nations the opportunity to share their views on £ medium altitude long endurance, unmanned aerial vehicles. The UK has undertaken to work bilaterally with France 2008-09 98,100 on this capability, as stated at the 2010 UK-France 2009-10 796,000 Summit and our first priority is therefore to ensure the 2010-11 3,450,000 success of this agreement. These figures exclude the UK’s assessed contributions Nuclear Power Stations: Safety to the United Nations and European Union support to AMISOM. These are paid by the FCO. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Warships Defence whether his Department is conducting nuclear stress tests as required by the European Commission Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for defence nuclear establishments and reactors. [77649] how many warships are available for active service in the Navy. [78010] Peter Luff: All duty holders in the defence nuclear programme are undertaking work to consider the Peter Luff: Details of the number of Royal Navy application of lessons to be learnt from the Fukushima warships available, in various states of readiness, for event. Although outside the scope of the European active service are provided in the following table: Commission’s remit, this work is being informed by the stress tests developed by the European Nuclear Safety Number Regulatory Group adapted to be appropriate to the 1 activity concerned. Landing Platform Helicopter 2 Landing Platform Dock 2 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Type 45 Destroyer 3 Defence if he will place in the Library a redacted copy Type 42 Destroyer 4 of his review of the safety of the defence nuclear Type 23 Frigate 13 programme in the light of the Fukushima nuclear accident. Hunt Class Mine Counter 8 Measures Vessel [77650] Sandown Class Mine Counter 7 Measures Vessel Peter Luff: Redacted copies of the preliminary report, River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels 3 and supporting initial statement by the Defence Nuclear River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels 1 Safety Regulator will be placed in the Library of the (Helicopter) House as soon as reasonably possible. It is intended that P2000 Patrol Boats 18 the final report will also be placed in the public domain Ocean Survey Vessels 1 in due course. Coastal Survey Vessels 3 Ice Patrol Ship 1 Somalia: Peacekeeping Operations Ships Submersible Ballistic Nuclear 4 Ship Submersible Nuclear 7 Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 1 HMS Illustrious is now operating in the Landing Platform Helicopter how much his Department has spent on (a) training role, as well as HMS Ocean. Ugandan and Burundian soldiers to serve in the Amisom Yemen force and (b) funding Amisom operations in Somalia in each of the last three years. [76764] Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what (a) material and (b) technical support his Department Peter Luff: The British Government often trains alongside provided to the Yemeni Government in each of the last or assists in the training of other nations’ troops. The five years. [77551] United Kingdom’s support to the African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM) is funded through the Conflict Peter Luff: Given the serious threat al-Qaeda in the Pool, not the Defence budget. Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) poses to UK national security, The Conflict Pool, which is constructed from joint Her Majesty’s Government have been working with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO), Department Yemeni Government for a number of years supporting for International Development and Ministry of Defence them in disrupting AQAP. This support has included (MOD) funding, has provided funding for MOD support training, delivered both in Yemen and in UK, and the to the training of the armed forces of Uganda and provision of a limited amount of non-lethal equipment. Burundi serving in AMISOM as follows: At the centre of our all training and support is a 661W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 662W commitment to promoting human rights. The UK employed as consultants in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; Government seek assurances that the forces we are and if he will make a statement. [77575] involved with will not be deployed on operations outside of their mandate or in breach of human rights. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office The UK has provided professional development training does not hold a central record of consultants working for officers of the Yemeni security forces as follows: in overseas missions. Procurement activities are devolved to directorates in the UK and a network of nearly Number of students 270 posts overseas. The information requested could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. 2006 5 Any use of consultants would be subject to rigorous 2007 7 scrutiny and the acceptance of a business case. 2008 6 2009 7 Departmental Public Expenditure 2010 9 This training includes elements which enhance an Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for individual’s understanding of the control and employment Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he receives of security forces in accordance with the rule of law. any external funding for (a) his ministerial office and At the request of the Yemeni Government the UK (b) his advisers; and what the (i) source and (ii) amount provided training for the Yemeni Central Security Force is of any such funding. [77594] Public Order Battalion in October 2010 and February 2011. The aim of this training was to reduce the use of Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and lethal force in public order situations and address a Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member source of grievance among Yemeni citizens by developing for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), receives no external the capability of the Yemeni Central Security Forces to funding for either (a) his ministerial office or (b) his be able to deal with public order situations in an accountable advisers. and professional manner. The training, which was conducted in Yemen, included human rights and law of Departmental Responsibilities armed conflict training at the request of the Yemenis; escalation and de-escalation drills were included as were Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the principles of use of minimum force. As part of this and Commonwealth Affairs at how many events organised training package a small amount of non-hazardous and by (a) charities, (b) other civil society groups, (c) non-lethal public order equipment, to the value of businesses and (d) lobbying organisations Ministers £90,000, was gifted to Yemen from surplus UK stocks and senior officials in his Department have given speeches in order to cover Yemeni capability gaps and to ensure in each month since May 2010; and if he will make a that UK techniques could be taught and applied correctly. statement. [77356] This equipment was delivered to the Yemeni Central Security Force in February 2011. Mr Lidington: This information is not held centrally The UK has also worked with the Yemeni Counter and is available only at disproportionate cost. Terrorism Unit, in concert with other donors, to increase Yemen’s capability to tackle AQAP, including training Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and advice over the past five years and the provision of and Commonwealth Affairs how many applications equipment and infrastructure in financial year 2010-11. from employees to run services for which his Department The UK has also delivered training, advice and the is directly responsible he has received since May 2010; provision of rigid inflatable boats to the Yemenicoastguard, and if he will make a statement. [77606] based in both Sana’a and Aden, since 2005, as part of our wider counterterrorism and regional security efforts. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) has no record of any applications from employees counterterrorism programme is the principal funding to run services. I refer the hon. Member to my answer to stream for the Government’s counterterrorism work him of 20 October 2011, Official Report, column 1108W. overseas, overseen by a cross-government programme board. A decision to fund a particular project is taken Departmental Security only after an assessment of possible impacts and human rights implications has been completed. Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The political and security situation in Sana’a has and Commonwealth Affairs what level of security vetting deteriorated significantly this year; consequently this is required for the post of (a) head of communications, training was suspended in May 2011. (b) deputy head of communications and (c) head of press office in his Department; and if he will list each person who has held these posts since May 2010. [77900]

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Mr Lidington: The booklet “HMG Personnel Security Controls”, describes the circumstances in which a post Departmental Consultants may require the holder to be the subject of national security vetting checks and is publicly available on the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Cabinet Office website at: and Commonwealth Affairs how many staff working www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/hmg-personnel- for his Department in (a) France and (b) the US were security-controls 663W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 664W

Since May 2010, the posts mentioned have been held the governments of Kosovo and Serbia to reengage in by: (a) Ian Hargreaves and then Andrew Whyte (director the Dialogue as soon as possible and to implement of communications); (b) no post with this title exists; those agreements already reached. (c) Carl Newns.

Government Communications Headquarters: Finance UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the budget was for Martin Caton: To ask the Secretary of State for GCHQ in each of the last two years; what the planned Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment budget is in each of the next three years; and if he will his Department has made of the likely effect of the make a statement. [77354] adoption in its present form of the draft protocol on cluster munitions in the UN Convention on Certain Mr Lidington: The budgets for the Security Service, Conventional Weapons on universalisation of the SIS and GCHQ form the Single Intelligence Account Convention on Cluster Munitions and promotion of its (SIA) which is voted by Parliament as a consolidated norms as required under Article 21. [77164] allocation. It has been the policy of successive Governments not to reveal details of the individual Agency budgets beyond what is already published. Most recently the Alistair Burt: We believe that engaging in negotiations overall SIA budget details can be found at paragraphs for a protocol on cluster munitions in the UN Convention 39 and 41 of the Intelligence and Security Committee’s on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW) is consistent (ISC) 2010-11 Annual Report which was published on with paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 21. These are 13 July 2011 (Cm 8114). negotiations within the framework of an International Humanitarian Law treaty. They are aiming to establish IRG restrictions on a significant number of cluster munitions, which would have a notable humanitarian effect. A Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for protocol could serve as a first step towards wider Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether (a) he prohibitions for those states not in a position to accede and (b) Ministers in his Department have had meetings to the Convention on Cluster Munitions in the near with representatives of IRG Ltd. [77162] future. Irrespective of the outcome of negotiations at the CCW we will continue to encourage non-party Mr Lidington: Foreign and Commonwealth Office states to accede to the Oslo Convention with the goal of Ministers in this Government have no record or recollection universalising the Convention. of having held a meeting with representatives of IRG Ltd. In July 2010, Mr Stephen Crouch approached the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), at Juba airport and they spoke briefly. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what legal advice Kosovo: Borders his Department has received on the Government’s interpretative declaration on the Optional Protocol to Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict. [78044] he has received on the border dispute in Kosovo. [77803] Mr Jeremy Browne: It is not Government practice to Mr Lidington: I am following the situation in northern disclose whether they have sought legal advice or the Kosovo very closely and receive frequent detailed reporting content of any advice obtained. The UK played a full from officials. I discussed this issue with Serbian leaders and active role in negotiations leading to the drafting of during my visit to Belgrade on 31 October to 1 November. the Optional Protocol to the UN Convention on the The issue was also discussed by the Secretary of State Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. armed conflict. The UK signed the Optional Protocol Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), in September 2000 and ratified on 24 June 2003. The when he met the Kosovo Foreign Minister on 20 October. Government’s understanding of their obligations is clarified The situation in northern Kosovo remains tense but by the interpretive declaration they made upon signature calm. The border points are open and under EULEX and confirmed upon ratification. This made clear that control, with NATO’s peacekeeping force, KFOR, providing the armed forces would continue to recruit from age 16 security. There has been no repeat of the 27 September but included a clear commitment to take all feasible attack on KFOR troops. Kosovo Serb barricades remain measures to ensure those who had not yet reached the across northern Kosovo. KFOR has started to remove age of 18 years old did not take a direct part in hostilities. the barriers in conformity with its mandate to guarantee The Government remains fully committed to meeting security and freedom of movement. their obligations under the Protocol and welcomes the The EU-facilitated Dialogue between Kosovo and steps that have been taken to bestow special safeguards Serbia offers the best opportunity for Pristina and on young people under 18. We believe that our policies Belgrade to resolve their differences in a way that improves on under 18s are robust and compliant with national the lives of their people and helps both countries progress and international law. We will continue to keep them in a more stable manner towards EU accession. We urge under review. 665W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 666W

World War I: Anniversaries The FCO, together with the Department for International Development and the Ministry of Defence, contributes Mr Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for to and administers the conflict pool. In the period in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans his question several projects were agreed which have benefited Department has to mark the 100th anniversary of the the Government of Yemenin terms of technical expertise. No money was committed directly to the Government start of the First World War. [76066] of Yemen. Projects involved technical funding to support the work of the Yemeni authorities in addition to Mr Lidington [holding answer 21 October 2011]: training and guidance. These are as follows: 2006-07 Traditionally, we mark the anniversary of the conclusion border security costing £25,267; 2008-09 Ministry of of a conflict rather than its beginning. So the main the Interior CTU and coastguard development costing commemorations will be on the centenary of the end of £93,844; 2009-10 YemeniCoastguard development costing the First World War in 1918. However, given the importance £50,563; 2010-11 officer training in the UK costing of the centenary of World War 1, a number of anniversaries £145,200 and public order training, scaled down to the of key events from 2014 to 2018, including the beginning gifting of non-lethal surplus equipment. In the current of the war, will be marked in an appropriate way. The financial year funding has been allocated to provide Prime Minister has asked my hon. Friend the Member further officer training, but none has yet been spent. for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), to act as his Special Representative and Co-ordinator for World War A small bilateral programmes budget is administered 1 Commemorations. Dr Murrison will work with by the embassy in Sana’a. While most of the work international partners to ensure that the UK plays a full funded does not involve the Government of Yemen, and active role; and will co-ordinate the cross-Whitehall one recent project was resourced to provide support to effort in respect of the commemorations. the Ministry of the Interior, specifically setting up the first Regional Maritime Security Conference. Yemen

Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) material Animal Welfare and (b) technical support his Department provided to the Yemeni Government in each of the last five years. [77549] Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will estimate Mr Jeremy Browne: The UK has provided material the number of domestic dogs and cats injured by snares and technical support to the Yemeni Government over in England in the latest period for which figures are the last five years as part of our counter terrorism available; and if she will make a statement. [72015] assistance to reduce the risk from international terrorism to the UK and UK interests overseas. We have been Mr Paice: These figures are not held centrally. working with the YemeniGovernment to increase Yemen’s Cattle: Exports capability to tackle Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, including through the provision of training and advice, for example to the Yemeni Counter Terrorism Unit Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for (CTU) and Yemeni Coastguard. Since the escalation in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions violence both projects have now been suspended. All she has had with the European Commission on the our capacity building is delivered in accordance with granting of subsidies for live cattle exports to non-EU UK values and human rights standards. Before providing countries. [73849] any military support or training to Yemeni forces, the UK Government seek assurances that these forces will Mr Paice: Since December 2005, the only live cattle not be deployed on operations outside of their mandate exports to third countries that qualify for any financial or in breach of human rights. The Foreign and assistance are live female breeding animals that must Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) Counter Terrorism meet specific criteria in relation to their age and weight. Programme is the principal funding stream underpinning The payment of export refunds is subject to compliance Her Majesty’s Government’s Counter Terrorism projects with European Union legislation on the protection of overseas. The FCO’s total worldwide Counter Terrorism animals during transport. Programme budget: for financial year (FY) 2011-12— There have been no discussions between DEFRA £38 million, FY 2010-11—£38 million, FY 2009-10— Ministers and the European Commission regarding this £37 million, FY 2008-09—£35 million, FY 2007-08— issue. However, DEFRA officials attend the Monthly £16.3 million. In each financial year a proportion of Animal Products Management Committee meetings in these annual allocations are committed to programmes Brussels and discuss exports and other issues relating to in Yemen. The majority of our funding in Yemen is the market in beef and veal, with the European Commission delivered through Ministry of Defence projects. Since and other member states. the attempted aviation attack in Detroit in December 2009, we have also committed funds to assist the Yemeni Dogs authorities to improve security at the international airport in Sana’a. Funding has been allocated to provide x-ray Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for machines and electronic trace detection equipment at a Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she plans to cost of £427,000. We have also provided training for bring forward measures to encourage responsible dog Yemeni airport personnel in Dubai and Amman. ownership; and if she will make a statement. [72986] 667W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 668W

Mr Paice: We appreciate that the issue of irresponsible The Solicitor-General: The Bona Vacantia Division ownership of dogs is causing concern to many local of the Treasury Solicitor’s Department introduced a communities. It is not just a problem of dangerous new automated telephony system from February 2011. breeds of dogs, but one of irresponsible dog owners. The number of calls received by the Bona Vacantia Those owners need to be held to account and stopped Inquiry Line for the period from February 2011 until from ruining people’s lives. We have been engaged with the end of September 2011 is 11,429. key interested parties both inside and outside Government, Inquiry calls received by Bona Vacantia Division including police and animal welfare organisations, prior to February 2011 cannot be separately identified concerning measures to promote more responsible dog without incurring disproportionate cost. ownership. It is essential to make sure that better public protection does not place unnecessary burdens on the Departmental Security vast majority of dog owners in this country who act responsibly and care for their pets. We are considering a Jon Trickett: To ask the Attorney-General (1) what range of measures to promote more responsible ownership level of security vetting is required for the post of (a) of dogs and will shortly announce measures to make head of communications, (b) deputy head of our communities safer. communications and (c) head of press office in the Law Officers’ departments; and if he will list each person who has held these posts since May 2010; [77940] WOMEN AND EQUALITIES (2) what level of security vetting is required for (a) grade six and seven, or equivalent, press officers and Equality and Human Rights Commission: Manpower (b) ministerial private secretaries in the Law Officers’ departments; [77941] John McDonnell: To ask the Minister for Women and (3) what level of security vetting is required for (a) Equalities whether the Government Equalities Office special advisers and (b) ministerial-appointed policy has discussed with officials of the Equality and Human advisers in the Law Officers’ departments; and if he Rights Commission (EHRC) the employment of (a) will list each person who has held these posts since May interim consultants and (b) non-permanent staff by 2010. [77942] the EHRC; and if she will place in the Library copies of any correspondence on this matter between her The Solicitor-General: It would not be appropriate to officials and the EHRC. [77013] provide details of the levels of security vetting or other information on specific posts within the Law Officers’ Lynne Featherstone: The Equality and Human Rights Departments, as this could highlight who within a Commission (EHRC) must get its finances in shape, Department has access to sensitive material and be used reduce costs, and end its dependence on expensive interim for targeting purposes. The Cabinet Office has issued staff. The Government Equalities Office continues to guidance on civil service security vetting procedures discuss these issues with the Commission. entitled ’HMG Personnel Security Controls’, which is I do not consider it appropriate to publish the relevant published online at: correspondence, as officials need to be able to have full www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/hmg-personnel- and frank discussions about operational management security-controls without fear of disclosure. The Law Officers’ Departments do not employ any special advisors or policy advisors appointed by Ministers.

Jon Trickett: To ask the Attorney-General what company DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER or Government service is used to undertake security Departmental Public Expenditure vetting at (a) counter terrorist check, (b) security check and (c) developed vetting level in the Law Officers’ Austin Mitchell: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister departments. [77943] whether he receives any external funding for (a) his The Solicitor-General: When clearance is required at ministerial office and (b) his advisers; and what the (i) CTC, SC and DV levels the Law Officers’ Departments source and (ii) amount is of any such funding. [77711] uses the Defence Business Services National Security Vetting. In some specific cases the Attorney-General’s The Deputy Prime Minister: I do not receive external Office might also ask the Foreign and Commonwealth funding for my ministerial office or my official advisers. Office to conduct this vetting. As a party leader, party staff provide me with political advice. All checks are carried out in accordance with Cabinet Office guidelines.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL JUSTICE Bona Vacantia Legal Aid Scheme Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Attorney-General how many calls the telephone inquiry line operated by the Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Bona Vacantia Division of the Treasury Solicitor’s what recent discussions he has had on the time taken Department received in each of the last five years. for payment of legal aid fees since the process was [77994] centralised. [77655] 669W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 670W

Mr Djanogly: Between February and April 2011 Reoffenders payments of legal aid fees to advocates transferred from individual Crown court centres to the Legal Services Commission. An issue was identified in some cases Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice where the computer system had not been updated correctly how many convictions for repeat offenders there were to show that the case had moved from the magistrates in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency, (b) court to the Crown court. This meant some claims London and (c) England in each of the last 10 years. needed to be returned to Her Majesty’s Courts and [77541] Tribunals Service for resolution, leading to delays in making payments. Provisions were put in place to expedite Mr Blunt: The table shows the number of offenders claims in the case of genuine financial hardship as a convicted and sentenced for indictable offences by area result of the payment delays. The LSC resolved the and criminal history, 2001-10. These figures relate to system problem at the end of June and a recovery plan separate sentencing occasions and therefore an offender was immediately implemented to clear the backlog of may be included on more than one occasion, either cases that had built up as a result of this issue. I within an area, across areas, or across time. understand that payments are now being made in around Figures for the Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency eight and a half weeks, against a published target of are not available; figures have been provided for Bexley eight weeks. If the volume of claims remains at current local authority which includes the Bexleyheath and levels the LSC expect to process claims within the eight Crayford constituency. week target soon. Sentencing occasions have been allocated to a location Prisons: Health Services on the basis of the police force that processed the offence, or in the case of Bexley the offender’s address Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for at the time of conviction. Repeat offenders are those Justice which bodies will be responsible for the health with a previous conviction or caution anywhere in care of people in prisons in England and Wales England or Wales. These figures are a further breakdown following the closure of primary care trusts. [77625] of table Q7.5 in ‘Criminal Justice Statistics Quarterly Update to December 2010’ which was published on 26 Paul Burstow: I have been asked to reply. May 2011. Subject to legislation, responsibility for commissioning These figures have been drawn from the police’s national health service health care services for prisoners administrative IT system, the police national computer, in England will transfer to the NHS Commissioning which, as with any large scale recording system, is Board from primary care trusts after April 2013. Health subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. care services for prisoners in Wales are the responsibility The figures are provisional and subject to change as of the Welsh Government. more information is recorded by the police.

Number of convictions for repeat offenders dealt with in Bexley local authority, the Metropolitan police and police forces in England, 2001-101, 2 Sentencing occasions 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Bexley local authority All offenders 454 461 512 502 553 573 638 722 881 998 Repeat offenders 390 399 453 435 478 499 550 616 763 853 Percentage 85.9 86.6 88.5 86.7 86.4 87.1 86.2 85.3 86.6 85.5 Metropolitan police force All offenders 43,489 48,757 48,374 45,604 43,608 45,549 47,676 51,696 52,681 55,516 Repeat offenders 35,887 40,257 40,478 37,805 35,792 37,727 39,553 43,272 44,563 46,982 Percentage 82.5 82.6 83.7 82.9 82.1 82.8 83.0 83.7 84.6 84.6 Police forces in England All offenders 296,998 311,212 313,915 299,922 287,991 284,746 295,734 306,485 302,867 309,355 Repeat offenders 261,217 276,070 279,428 265,098 254,293 252,307 263,512 274,317 271,228 276,596 Percentage 88.0 88.7 89.0 88.4 88.3 88.6 89.1 89.5 89.6 89.4 1 Repeat offenders are those who had at least one previous caution or conviction. 2 Figures are counts of sentencing occasions.

EDUCATION Sarah Teather: The Government have set out a core purpose for Sure Start Children’s Centres, focused on outcomes for children and families, particularly the Children’s Centres most vulnerable. It is clear that children’s centres can best achieve this by providing access to a range of Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for universal and targeted services, which includes high-quality Education what proposals he has for future obligations child care and early education such as access to the or requirements for the provision of childcare by children three and four-year-old entitlement to 15 hours of free centres. [76137] early education and the new entitlement for disadvantaged 671W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 672W two-year-olds. The evidence is clear on the impact that Following an open competitive process the NSN was high-quality early learning and child care has on children’s successful with its bid for grant funding from 1 November outcomes, particularly for the most disadvantaged children. 2011. The Government do not want to prescribe the detail of how local authorities and professionals run local Postgraduate Education: Finance services. However, as set out in the Childcare Act 2006, all children’s centres should provide access to child care, Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for either by having it on site or by providing advice and Education (1) when his Department decided to reduce assistance in accessing it elsewhere. Children’s centres support for PGCE students starting in September with early learning and child care on site must meet the 2011; what support his Department will provide to requirements of the Early YearsFoundation Stage (EYFS), such students; and if he will make a statement; [75738] which set the standards for quality across all early years (2) what estimate he has made of the saving to the settings. The Government have recently consulted on public purse following the reduction in support for their proposals for a clearer, simpler, more effective PGCE students starting in September 2011. [75739] EYFS. A summary report on the consultation, and the Government’s response, will be published later this Mr Gibb: Details of the training bursary arrangements year. for PGCE trainees starting courses in September 2011 Email were announced by the Department on 31 January 2011 and set out in a letter from the Secretary of State for Education, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove), to the chief executive of the Training whether any (a) Ministers, (b) officials and (c) special and Development Agency for Schools on the same date. advisers in his Department use private e-mail accounts The letter confirmed that in 2011/12 £9,000 bursaries for the conduct of Government business. [73215] are available for PGCE trainees in mathematics, physics, chemistry and engineering while those on biology, Tim Loughton: The Ministerial Code, the Code of combined/general science and modern foreign languages Conduct for Special Advisers, and the Civil Service courses can receive £6,000 bursaries. All PGCE students Code set out how Ministers, officials and special advisers can apply for the same student support as undergraduate should conduct Government business. students, including maintenance loans and means-tested New Schools Network grants. The cost of providing bursaries for postgraduate Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education trainees that started courses in September 2010 is (1) pursuant to the answer of 11 October 2011, Official £151.3 million. The cost of providing bursaries for Report, column 360W, on New Schools Network, for postgraduate trainees that started courses in September what reason he has decided not to publish all 2011 is £59.5 million. correspondence between his Department and the New Our discussion document “Training our next generation Schools Network; [75387] of outstanding teachers” sets out proposals for reforming (2) when he plans to announce the successful bidder initial teacher training, including providing bursaries for his Department’s competitive grant process in designed to make training to teach more attractive to relation to free schools; [75388] the most talented graduates, especially in shortage subjects, from 2012/13. The proposals set out a bursary rate of (3) if he will publish representations which he has between £4,000 and £20,000 depending on the degree received from potential providers of free schools on the classification of the trainee and the subject specialism service provided by the New Schools Network under its or phase of the postgraduate course. We expect to agreement with his Department; [75389] announce the final arrangements for 2012/13 shortly. (4) what discussions Ministers and officials of his The bursaries will continue to be adjusted regularly Department had with the Cabinet Office on the award according to the size of the pool of potential teachers of funding to the New Schools Network; [75390] and the demand from schools for new teachers. (5) what specific conditions were contained in the grant agreement between his Department and the New Pupil Exclusions Schools Network relating to conflicts of interest. [75392] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what progress has been made on the pilots of a new Mr Gibb: The Department does not routinely publish approach to permanent exclusions; what plans he has to correspondence that it receives and sends as part of the introduce legislative proposals to amend provisions relating normal course of business; this is no exception. to permanent exclusions; and if he will make a statement. The Department had no discussions with the Cabinet [77272] Office prior to the original grant award to the NSN. The conflicts of interest clause in the original NSN Mr Gibb: Work on the trial commenced in September grant letter was based on the Department’s model in the six local authorities which have so far committed agreement and says: to testing the new approach to school exclusion. These authorities are: Derbyshire, Lancashire, Wiltshire, East “NSN will ensure that staff, trustees, volunteers and advisers’ conflicts of interest and potential conflicts of interest are promptly Sussex, Sefton and Redcar and Cleveland. The trial will disclosed to the Department and recorded by NSN, and that cover at least 3,000 pupils “at-risk” of exclusion and we proper standards of integrity are applied in relation to all its are currently in discussion with eight more local authorities activities”. who are hoping to join. 673W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 674W

The trial authorities are currently working with their national curriculum and assessment arrangements. We schools to establish their own local arrangements and have also introduced a new £50 million pupil premium to develop schools’ capacity to take on increased summer school programme which will provide two weeks responsibilities for commissioning alternative provision. of teaching and activities to help the most disadvantaged There will be an in-depth evaluation of the trial pupils make the transition from primary to secondary which will provide evidence of the impact of this new school. process on the outcomes for these “at-risk” pupils. Our intention is to consider legislative changes on the basis Students: Transport of this evidence. Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Schools: Fire Extinguishers how many local authorities have changed their transport subsidies for 16 to 18-year-olds accessing education and Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Education training between academic years 2010-11 and 2011-12. what estimate he has made of the proportion of new [74612] build and refurbished schools that comply with Government guidelines on the inclusion of sprinklers; and if he will Tim Loughton: Local authorities are required by section make a statement. [75798] 509AA of the Education Act to publish a transport policy statement each year which sets out the support Mr Gibb: Information is not held on the proportion they will provide for 16 to 19-year-olds attending further of new build and refurbished schools that have installed education. The Department for Education is undertaking sprinkler systems. an exercise to establish whether all local authorities The decision on whether or not to install sprinklers in have published transport policy statements as required schools and the assessment of the risks and benefits of by section 509AA of the Education Act 1996. installing sprinklers, is a matter for schools and local We do not have information on the changes to transport authorities. subsidies for 16 to 18-year-olds accessing education and training between academic years 2010-11 and 2011-12. Social Mobility Decisions regarding the extent of transport arrangements, including the provision of any financial assistance, are Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for for local authorities to make following appropriate Education what step his Department is taking to improve consultation. social mobility; and if he will make a statement. [76603] Voluntary Work: Young People Mr Gibb: This Government have set out an education reform programme in order to drive up attainment for children, regardless of their background, and to keep Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pace with the highest-performing systems in the world. how much funding he proposes to allocate to the National We have undertaken specific measures to improve social Citizen Service in (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14 and (c) mobility as set out in the Government’s “Opening Doors, 2014-15; and if he will make a statement. [76288] Breaking Barriers: A Strategy for Social Mobility”. These measures aim to ensure life chances are more Tim Loughton [holding answer 21 October 2011]: equal at critical points such as the early years of Funding for NCS will come from a wide range of development; school readiness at age five; GCSE attainment sources. 2011 pilot providers have secured funding from and the choice of options at 16. a range of sources that includes business donations, in-kind support from providers themselves, private Evidence shows that investment in the early years of philanthropic donations, local fundraising and small a child’s life makes a difference to their future attainment. contributions from participants and their families. We have extended the free entitlement to early education Discussions are ongoing with providers for the delivery to 15 hours per week for all three and four-year-olds, of NCS in 2012. The level of government investment and we have committed to extend free early education will be dependant on funding secured from other sources. to all disadvantaged two-year-olds by 2013. Funding for places for disadvantaged two-year-olds will rise The Government allocation for 2013 and 2014 is from £64 million in the current financial year to £380 dependant on the level of funding secured from other million by the end of the spending review period and sources. will mean that around 140,000 two-year-olds will in the future benefit from free places. We have introduced the pupil premium which will provide additional resources to help raise the attainment WORK AND PENSIONS of pupils from low income families. Total funding for the pupil premium is £625 million in 2011-12, £1.25 Vacancies billion in 2012-13 and will rise to £2.5 billion a year by 2014-15. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The pupil premium sits alongside a range of reforms and Pensions what the ratio of jobseeker’s allowance that will help to ensure that more pupils achieve higher claimants to vacancies notified to Jobcentre Plus was in standards. These include allowing schools greater freedoms each (a) region, (b) local authority area and (c) and flexibility to use their budgets as they think best, constituency in each of the last five years. [78103] introducing a more rigorous emphasis on phonics in the early years of primary education and reviewing the Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. 675W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 676W

The information requested falls within the responsibility and senior officials in his Department have given speeches of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority in each month since May 2010; and if he will make a to reply. statement. [77369] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Mr Andrew Mitchell: As Secretary of State for have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking International Development my responsibilities include what the ratio of Jobseeker’s Allowance claimants per vacancy meeting and speaking with a wide range of organisations notified to Jobcentre Plus was in each (a) region (b) local authority in the UK and overseas about international development. area and (c) constituency in each of the last five years. (78103) Details of meetings and events undertaken by DFID In Table 1, we have provided the number of people claiming Ministers can be found on the DFID website Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) per Jobcentre Plus vacancy for each http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-us/Our-organisation/Ministers/ region, local authority area and constituency for September 2007, September 2008, September 2009, August 2010 and September Information on officials is not collected centrally. 2011 which is the latest period available. Figures for September 2010 are not available so as an alternative August 2010 figures have been provided. As the information requested is quite extensive, a copy has been placed in the House of Commons Library. CABINET OFFICE National and local area estimates for many labour market statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Third Sector Organisations count are available on the NOMIS website at: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk 9. Alun Michael: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what plans he has to increase co-operation between the civil service and third sector organisations. [77760] INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Mr Hurd: We refreshed the compact last year and Departmental Buildings have asked the National Audit Office (NAO) to review how it is being implemented. Current plans are that this Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for report will be published in early December by the NAO. International Development what (a) building and (b) We are also targeting 30,000 days of volunteering by refurbishment projects his Department plans in (i) the civil servants per year. current and (ii) the next financial year; and what the cost will be of each such project. [74358] 10. Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what assessment he has made of the Mr O’Brien: I have deposited in the Library a table of potential effects of spending decisions by local authorities our building and refurbishment costs for the current on funding for third sector organisations in 2012-13; and next financial year. The total building and and if he will make a statement. [77761] refurbishment costs for the current financial year is £2.61 million. We do not yet have completed plans in Mr Hurd: We are working with strategic partners to place for our projects in the next financial year so monitor the situation. forecast costs are unknown at this stage. The new best value guidance published by the Please find as follows confirmed building and Department for Communities and Local Government, refurbishment costs for the current year: the refreshed compact, the transition fund and the infrastructure fund have all been put in place to support Forecast costs for the sector through a very challenging time. Location Description 2011-12 (£) Public Sector Mutuals South Sudan Construction of a second 1,700,000 Juba storey extension to the existing UK Government 11. Richard Graham: To ask the Minister for the shared building. Cabinet Office what steps he is taking to encourage Nigeria Kano Construction of a new 961,000 public sector mutuals. [77762] building. South Africa Refurbishment of the British 1— Mr Maude: We have announced 21 Mutual Pathfinders Pretoria high commission building that allows co-location of to help us understand the best ways to enable and the Department for develop mutuals on an ongoing basis. The Mutuals International Development Taskforce will provide advice and challenge to the (DFID) and Foreign and Government in this area. Commonwealth Office (FCO). We are also putting in place the support that these 1 Not known at this time. (Refurbishment project planned, but not yet organisations may need in order to become a success. commissioned for the current financial year) The Mutuals Support Programme will provide help, advice and guidance to support fledgling mutuals. Departmental Responsibilities Cyber Security Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development at how many events organised 12. Sajid Javid: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet by (a) charities, (b) other civil society groups, (c) Office what his priorities are for the Office of Cyber businesses and (d) lobbying organisations Ministers Security and Information Assurance. [77763] 677W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 678W

Mr Maude: My priorities include: Count of employees 1998 to 2008 (ABI) Publishing a National Cyber Security Strategy and co-ordinating Jarrow delivery of the strategy across government and the wider (parliamentary economy; constituency available Overseeing the National Cyber Security Programme, which from2003 South Great manages the £650 million investment in transforming the UK’s onwards) Tyneside North East Britain cyber security capability; and Working with the Department for Business, Innovation and 1998 — 2,800 51,700 1,108,000 Skills to develop new and innovative partnerships with the 1999 — 3,000 56,400 1,130,600 private sector on cyber security issues. 2000 — 1,700 55,800 1,127,800 2001 — 2,200 56,800 1,156,200 Open Government Partnership 2002 — 2,000 54,400 1,163,200 2003 1,000 1,800 53,200 1,137,900 13. Claire Perry: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2004 1,300 2,200 57,500 1,180,900 Office what assessment he has made of the potential 2005 1,800 2,800 61,800 1,212,900 role of the Open Government Partnership in promoting openness and transparency. [77764] 2006 1,400 2,200 59,700 1,258,500 2007 1,300 2,400 58,900 1,290,500 Mr Maude: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I 2008 1,400 1,900 58,100 1,268,800 gave to the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) Notes: at Cabinet Office oral questions earlier today. 1. ABI 2006 discontinuity. Estimates for 2005 and earlier are on a different basis to those from 2006 onwards, mainly due to a change in the survey reference date from December to September. Users should Cobra: Security avoid directly comparing employment estimates over the discontinuity, which has been marked on the table with a blank row. 2. ABI 2003 Geographic discontinuity. The 2003 ABI data for aggregate Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet areas is based on 2003 CAS wards which differs from previous years Office what the (a) names and (b) positions were of ABI data which was build from 1991 census wards. This will give rise non-security services civil servants who attended COBR to discontinuities when comparing 2003 data with previous years. 3. ABI 2003 Industrial discontinuity. The 2003 ABI data is based on [77790] committee meetings since May 2010. the Standard Industrial Classification (SIC) 2003 which differs from previous years ABI data. This may give rise to discontinuities. Mr Maude: Attendance at COBR meetings is determined by the nature of the challenge under consideration, but Count of employees 2008 to 2010 (BRES) includes representatives from a range of Government South Great Jarrow Tyneside North East Britain Departments and other organisations and agencies as appropriate. The names and positions of individuals 2008 1,400 1,800 58,800 1,364,200 attending internal meetings, such as these, are not normally 2009 1,700 2,200 60,500 1,262,700 released. 2010 1,400 1,700 50,000 1,146,700 Note: Construction: Manpower Care should be taken when comparing the results from BRES with those from ABI as BRES uses different methodology for calculating the estimates and is based on SIC 2007 rather than SIC 2003. Mr Hepburn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many people were employed in the construction industry in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside, Departmental Assets (c) the north east and (d) the UK in each year since 1997. [78150] Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what assets with a value of £250,000 or more his Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Department has bought since May 2010; for what purpose; responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have and if he will make a statement. [77351] asked the authority to reply. Mr Maude: The assets with a value of £250,000 or Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2011: more that have been bought by the Cabinet Office As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I during this period all support projects to modernise its have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking central London headquarters at 70 Whitehall and to how many people were employed in the construction industry in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East improve the efficiency of its Information Technology and (d) the UK in each year since 1997. [78150] infrastructure. Details of costs can be found at the Cabinet Office transparency website: The Business Register Employment Survey (BRES) and it predecessor, the Annual Business Inquiry (ABI), are the most http://data.gov.uk/dataset/financial-transactions-data-co comprehensive sources of employee estimates at a detailed regional and geographical level. Both BRES and the ABI provide employee estimates based on business survey data collected on a specific Departmental Lost Property reference date during each year. I attach a table showing the numbers of employees engaged in Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the construction sector in Jarrow parliamentary constituency (available from 2003 onwards only), South Tyneside county district, Office whether his Department has lost any (a) computers, the North East region and Great Britain from the earliest year (b) mobile telephones, (c) BlackBerrys and (d) other available (1998) to the most recent (2010). Unfortunately, a time IT equipment since May 2010; and if he will make a series is not available for the UK. statement. [77350] 679W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 680W

Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office has recorded four through informed comparison; driving dynamic economic laptops, one mobile and eight BlackBerrys lost or missing growth; enabling accountability, and transforming social since May 2010. No classified material was held on relationships through empowering individuals and these devices. communities. The consultation and the forthcoming White Paper represent the next phase of the Transparency Departmental Responsibilities agenda, moving away from a simple accountability model, towards embedding openness and transparency as core Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet operating principles of public services. The White Paper Office how many applications from employees to run will contain a full impact assessment of policy proposals services for which his Department is directly responsible and the benefits of Open Data. he has received since May 2010; and if he will make a The Transparency Team in the Cabinet Office is statement. [77613] currently leading on an Open Data work stream within the second phase of the Government’s growth review, Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office is taking forward the to be released alongside the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Government’s commitments to give public sector workers autumn statement on 29 November. In this, the Government new rights to spin out to form new enterprises and will set out Open Data’s potential to drive economic continue to deliver public services, including through growth in the UK economy. new mutuals and cooperatives. These rights will not be uniform across organisations. Mutual Societies Within the Cabinet Office the transformation of My Civil Service Pension is under way. The company has Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet been created, and we are currently in the process of Office what steps he is taking to increase the number of identifying a private sector partner for My Civil Service community-owned mutuals; and if he will make a Pension. As this process is underway at the moment it statement. [77398] would be inappropriate to make any further statement at this time. Mr Maude [holding answer 31 October 2011]: This Departmental Telephone Services Government are committed to supporting the creation and expansion of mutuals. Over the last year the 21 Cabinet Office Mutual Pathfinders have provided valuable Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet learning which is being developed into a comprehensive Office how much funding his Department allocated to package of support for fledgling mutuals. Many of the each telephone helpline funded by his Department in pathfinders have developed community engagement and 2011-12; what the purpose is of each such helpline; and ownership models, leading to responsive services which how many calls each helpline received in each of the can innovate to meet local need. last five years. [77991] The Cabinet Office is also working with local partners Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer to develop new community focused commissioning models. given on 6 September 2011, Official Report, column 431, to the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Government Departments: Databases Rosie Cooper: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent representations he has received on Jonathan Evans: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the provisions of the Public Bodies Bill [Lords]. [77579] Office what assessment he has made of the effect of the Open Data project; what account he will take of this Mr Maude: The provisions in the Public Bodies Bill assessment in determining the future of the project; provide powers to Ministers to make reforms to a range and if he will make a statement. [77581] of public bodies. Where a reform is proposed to a body listed in the Bill’s schedules, Ministers are required to Mr Maude: Transparency is a new way of operating undertake a consultation process. Representations are in Government. Central and local government and wider most appropriately made during the consultation process. public services have been made more accountable to the The Bill has now completed Third Reading in both public, aided, by the release of over 7,500 datasets Houses. During the passage of the Bill, contributions to (including over 800 geographical linked datasets) via debates were made by many Members of both Houses data.gov.uk. These datasets have enabled the public to and where representations have been made to me I have view and track instances of crime in their area with ensured they are passed to the relevant Department. police.uk having received hundreds of millions of hits since its launch; scrutinise Ministers’ expenses, and; Public Sector: Sick Leave interrogate central and local government contracts. Originally targeted at technical experts and software Nicholas Soames: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet developers, we are reviewing and repackaging data.gov.uk Office what steps he is taking to reduce sickness so that it can serve the general public more directly, as absence in the public sector to the same levels as in the well as meet the needs of developers. private sector. [77041] The Government launched the Open Data consultation, “Making Open Data Real”, on 4 August. This included Mr Maude [holding answer 27 October 2011]: Cabinet an assessment of the positive effects of Open Data, Office hosts a regular cross-sector forum for employers demonstrating that it can have a transformative effect which shares best practice on effective ways to reduce on public services; improving outcomes and productivity sickness absence. 681W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 682W

In the civil service, the average working days lost Tables providing a breakdown of expenditure by (i) the UK (AWDL) per staff year has fallen for the fifth consecutive Statistics Authority and (ii) the Office for National Statistics quarter. The AWDL per person in the civil service now using Government Procurement Cards for the period May 2009 - stands at 7.3 days. This compares to a private sector May 2010 will be placed in the House of Commons Library. Information for the previous period requested could only be average of 7.1 days per person according to recent provided at disproportionate cost. reports by the Chartered Institute of Personnel We are actively looking at how we can expand on datasets Development and 5.9 days per person according to the already published to include the publication of Government Confederation of British Industry. The figures for the Procurement Card expenditure over £500. public sector are 9.1 days and 8.1 days respectively. AWDL in the civil service is currently at its lowest World War I: Anniversaries reported figure since 1999. More information about reducing sickness absence in Mr Keith Simpson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the civil service can be found at: Office what preparations his Department has made for http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/improving/health-and- co-ordinating the commemoration of the 100th anniversary wellbeing/sickness-absence of the start of the First World War. [76067]

Mr Maude [holding answer 21 October 2011]: Third Sector Traditionally, we mark the anniversary of the conclusion of a conflict rather than its beginning. So the main Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet commemorations will be on the centenary of the end of Office if he will set and publish targets for the number the first world war in 1918. However, given the importance of new (a) charities, (b) co-operatives, (c) employee-owned of the centenary of world war one a number of mutuals, (d) community-owned mutuals, (e) social anniversaries of key events from 2014 to 2018, including enterprises and (f) other third sector organisations in the beginning of the war, will be marked in an appropriate the UK by 2015; and if he will make a statement. way. The Prime Minister has asked my hon. Friend the [78210] Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), to act as his Special Representative and Co-ordinator for World War I Commemorations. Dr Murrison will work with Mr Hurd: The creation of new civil society organisations international partners to ensure that the UK plays a full is a matter for citizens and communities; it is not for and active role; and will co-ordinate the cross-Whitehall Government to prescribe targets in this respect. effort in respect of the commemorations. The Government are committed to supporting citizens and communities to play a bigger role in shaping how communities work and how public services get delivered. This includes measures to support the growth of civil BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS society, through making it easier to set up and run a charity or social enterprise, making it easier to work Gangmasters Licensing Authority with the state, and getting more resources into the sector. Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, United Kingdom Statistics Authority: Government Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of Procurement Card the possible effect of the relocation of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) to his Department Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet on the activities of unlicensed gangmasters in the Office what the (a) date of purchase, (b) amount, (c) agricultural sector; and when he last met ministerial supplier and (d) level 3 or enhanced transaction entry colleagues from DEFRA to discuss this issue. [78033] was of each transaction undertaken by UK Statistics Authority using the Government Procurement Card Mr Davey: There are currently no plans to relocate from the date of its establishment to May 2010. [73491] the Gangmasters Licensing Authority from the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) to Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the BIS. Therefore, no assessment has been made of the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have effect this might have. I last met with colleagues from asked the authority to reply. DEFRA to discuss this and other issues on 14 September Letter from Jill Matheson, dated 1 November 2011: 2010, when we agreed that in the short term our priority As Principal Accounting Officer for the UK Statistics Authority should be ensuring that the current enforcement (including the Office for National Statistics) I have been asked to arrangements worked well. reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking what the (a) Under the Review of Workplace Rights Compliance date of purchase, (b) amount, (c) supplier and (d) level 3 or and Enforcement we are looking at the scope to streamline enhanced transaction entry was, for each transaction undertaken activity and increase effectiveness. The review will be by the UK Statistics Authority using Government Procurement Cards from the date of its establishment to May 2010. (73491). I looking at a wide-range of different compliance and am sorry for the delay in my reply. enforcement models. All options are on the table. As outlined in the ministerial statement of 12 October It is our policy to use the Government Procurement Card as an efficient way of processing low value transactions. All transactions 2011, Official Report, columns 29-30WS, we will need made using Government Procurement Cards are subject to the to consider any eventual outcomes in the light of same stringent controls process and authorisation as in our travel consultations under the employment strand of the Red and subsistence and procure to pay systems. Tape Challenge. 683W Written Answers2 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 684W

Trade: Developing Countries are the subject of vetting, as this could highlight who has access to sensitive material and be used for targeting Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for purposes. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to work towards a conclusion to the Doha round in Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2011. [78045] Innovation and Skills what level of security vetting is required for (a) special advisers and (b) ministerial- Mr Davey: While it is now clear that the full Doha appointed policy advisers in his Department; and if he Development Round will not be concluded in 2011, the will list each person who has held these posts since Government are continuing to press for the best possible May 2010. [77862] outcome at the 8th World Trade Organisation (WTO) Ministerial Conference in December this year. We are Mr Davey: Please refer to the publicly available booklet working closely with the European Commission, EU HMG Personnel Security Controls, available from the member states and other WTO members to ensure that Cabinet Office website at there is a clear way forward for the Doha Round in 2012 http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/hmg- which delivers trade liberalisation, strengthens the personnel-security-controls multilateral system and advances the interests of poor This booklet describes the circumstances in which a countries. post may require the holder to be the subject of national security vetting checks. It would not be appropriate to Vetting confirm which specific posts within this Department are the subject of vetting, as this could highlight who Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, has access to sensitive material and be used for targeting Innovation and Skills (1) what level of security vetting purposes. (a) is required for the post of head of communications, Please refer to the quarterly publication of the list of (b) (c) deputy head of communications and head of special advisers which is available in the Libraries of the press office in his Department; and if he will list each House and can also be accessed on the Cabinet Office person who has held these posts since May 2010; [77860] website at (2) what level of security vetting is required for (a) http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/special- grade six and seven, or equivalent, press officers and adviser-data-releases (b) ministerial private secretaries in his Department. [77861] Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what company or Government Mr Davey: Please refer to the publicly available booklet service is used to undertake security vetting at (a) counter HMG Personnel Security Controls, available from the terrorist check, (b) security check and (c) developed Cabinet Office website at vetting level in his Department. [77863] http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/hmg- personnel-security-controls Mr Davey: National security vetting at counter terrorist This booklet describes the circumstances in which a check, security check and developed vetting level for the post may require the holder to be the subject of national Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is security vetting checks. It would not be appropriate to undertaken by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office confirm which specific posts within this Department services. 1MC Ministerial Corrections2 NOVEMBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

towards the costs of the Scottish Government employing Ministerial Corrections the Inspire programmer in Scotland from 2010-11 to 2012-13. Wednesday 2 November 2011 Scotland stands to gain from the wide range of opportunities created by the 2012 games, through businesses winning games-related work, increased tourism and cultural celebrations. Some examples of how Scotland CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT will benefit from the games are given as follows. Over 19,800 schools and colleges across the UK have registered for LOCOG’s London 2012 education Departmental Official Hospitality programme Get Set, 1,251 schools and colleges are registered in Scotland, 44.7% of the total number of Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, schools and colleges in the nation. 95 schools in the Fife Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department area have registered for Get Set including Glenrothes spent on hospitality for events hosted by each Minister High School. in his Department in each of the last 12 months. Over 1,700 cultural or sporting projects across the [73672] UK have been awarded the Inspire mark. In Scotland [Official Report, 13 October 2011, Vol. 533, c. 538W.] 36 projects have been awarded Inspire marks. In June Letter of correction from John Penrose: 2011, the Festival of Sport was launched in Scotland, An error has been identified in the written answer Fife council participated in this Inspire marked project. given to the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) The aim of the festival was using the inspiration of on 13 October 2011. the games to profile physical activity and increase the membership of sports clubs. The full answer given was as follows: The Legacy Trust have awarded £4.7 million for ‘The Scottish Project’, a diverse range of cultural, sporting John Penrose: Since October 2010, the Department and educational activities, bringing together thousands has spent a total of £890.36 on events hosted by the of volunteers, artists and the public to leave a lasting Minister for Sport and the Olympics, my hon. Friend the legacy from London 2012 and Glasgow 2014. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson). In addition, 25 contracts have been awarded by the The correct answer should have been: Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) to businesses in the nation. These include KN Environmental Services Ltd John Penrose: Since October 2010, the Department from Perth who provided materials for the Aquatics has spent a total of £1,628.25 on events hosted by the Centre, Millstream Associates Ltd from Aberdeen who Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and provided procurement services and Mason Land Surveys Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Ltd from Dunfermline who provided engineering services. Surrey (Mr Hunt) and £890.36 on events hosted by the The hon. Member can find a list of contractors on the Minister for Sport and the Olympics, my hon. Friend the ODA suppliers map at the link as follows: Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson). http://www.london2012.com/get-involved/business- network/oda-suppliers/map.php Olympic Games 2012: Scotland So far 4,072 companies in the nation have registered on Competefor (the website where London 2012 contract Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for opportunities are advertised), and 48 contracts have Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment been awarded to Competefor suppliers. Not all the he has made of the benefits to Scotland of the London information on ‘supply chain’ level contracts is in 2012 Olympic Games; and if he will make a statement. the public domain. There may be other companies that [75214] have secured ‘supply chain’ contracts in the nation. [Official Report, 19 October 2011, Vol. 533, c. 1000-01W.] Locations across the UK, particularly those that are Letter of correction from Hugh Robertson: hosting international teams in pre-games training camps An error has been identified in the written answer (PGTCs), have additional opportunities to realise the given to the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) economic benefits of the games. Two agreements have on 19 October 2011. The funding amount given for the been signed with teams to hold PGTCs in Scotland, Legacy Trust UK was incorrect. with the National Olympic Committees of Zambia and Namibia. In addition, Hampden Park will host rounds The full answer given was as follows: of the football competition. The Department is currently working with Glasgow Hugh Robertson [holding answer 17 October 2011]: 2014 Ltd on the post-games relocation of shooting The Government and the London Organising Committee range assets to Scotland. Furthermore, there is the of the Olympic and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) potential for relocation of other facilities as part of established the nations and regions group (NRG) to the LOCOG post-games games equipment and assets ensure UK-wide engagement and to maximise the legacy transfers. from London 2012. This group works directly with representatives from each of the nations and English The correct answer should have been: regions to realise the sporting, economic, and cultural Hugh Robertson [holding answer 17 October 2011]: benefits of the 2012 games. The Government and the London Organising Committee As part of the funding of the London 2012 activity in of the Olympic and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) the nations and regions the Department is contributing established the nations and regions group (NRG) to 3MC Ministerial Corrections2 NOVEMBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 4MC ensure UK-wide engagement and to maximise the legacy Glasgow 2014. The Legacy Trust, Creative Scotland and from London 2012. This group works directly with other partner organisations have contributed financially representatives from each of the nations and English to the programme. regions to realise the sporting, economic, and cultural In addition, 25 contracts have been awarded by the benefits of the 2012 games. Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) to businesses in the As part of the funding of the London 2012 activity in nation. These include KN Environmental Services Ltd the nations and regions the Department is contributing from Perth who provided materials for the Aquatics towards the costs of the Scottish Government employing Centre, Millstream Associates Ltd from Aberdeen who the Inspire programmer in Scotland from 2010-11 to provided procurement services and Mason Land Surveys 2012-13. Ltd from Dunfermline who provided engineering services. Scotland stands to gain from the wide range of The hon. Member can find a list of contractors on the opportunities created by the 2012 games, through businesses ODA suppliers map at the link as follows: winning games-related work, increased tourism and http://www.london2012.com/get-involved/business- cultural celebrations. Some examples of how Scotland network/oda-suppliers/map.php will benefit from the games are given as follows. So far 4,072 companies in the nation have registered Over 19,800 schools and colleges across the UK have on Competefor (the website where London 2012 contract registered for LOCOG’s London 2012 education opportunities are advertised), and 48 contracts have programme Get Set, 1,251 schools and colleges are been awarded to Competefor suppliers. Not all the registered in Scotland, 44.7% of the total number of information on ‘supply chain’ level contracts is in schools and colleges in the nation. 95 schools in the Fife the public domain. There may be other companies that area have registered for Get Set including Glenrothes have secured ‘supply chain’ contracts in the nation. High School. Locations across the UK, particularly those that are Over 1,700 cultural or sporting projects across the hosting international teams in pre-games training camps UK have been awarded the Inspire mark. In Scotland (PGTCs), have additional opportunities to realise the 36 projects have been awarded Inspire marks. In June economic benefits of the games. Two agreements have 2011, the Festival of Sport was launched in Scotland, been signed with teams to hold PGTCs in Scotland, Fife council participated in this Inspire marked project. with the National Olympic Committees of Zambia and The aim of the festival was using the inspiration of the Namibia. In addition, Hampden Park will host rounds games to profile physical activity and increase the of the football competition. membership of sports clubs. The Department is currently working with Glasgow The £4.6 million programme ‘The Scottish Project’, 2014 Ltd on the post-games relocation of shooting includes a diverse range of cultural, sporting and educational range assets to Scotland. Furthermore, there is the activities, bringing together volunteers, artists and the potential for relocation of other facilities as part of the public to leave a lasting legacy from London 2012 and LOCOG post-games games equipment and assets transfers. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 2 November 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 905 CABINET OFFICE—continued Community Projects ...... 905 Trade Union Facility Time...... 909 Head of the Civil Service ...... 912 Voluntary Sector ...... 906 Open Government Partnership ...... 908 Social Enterprise...... 911 Third Sector Contracts ...... 910 PRIME MINISTER ...... 915 Topical Questions ...... 912 Engagements...... 915 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 2 November 2011

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 37WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 37WS Homes and Communities Agency Regulation Civil Partnerships (Religious Premises) ...... 37WS Committee ...... 37WS DEFENCE...... 38WS Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment...... 38WS PETITION

Wednesday 2 November 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 5P Banking and Bankruptcy ...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 2 November 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 667W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 652W Bona Vacantia...... 667W Civil Servants: Procurement...... 652W Departmental Security ...... 668W Departmental Advertising...... 653W Departmental Procurement...... 653W Departmental Security ...... 653W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 682W Departmental Travel ...... 654W Gangmasters Licensing Authority...... 682W EU Grants and Loans...... 654W Trade: Developing Countries ...... 683W Local Government: Consultants ...... 654W Vetting ...... 683W Tenants ...... 654W

CABINET OFFICE...... 676W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 649W Cobra: Security...... 677W Departmental Procurement...... 649W Construction: Manpower...... 677W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 650W Cyber Security ...... 676W Third Sector...... 650W Departmental Assets...... 678W World War I: Anniversaries...... 651W Departmental Lost Property ...... 678W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 679W DEFENCE...... 655W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 679W Armed Forces: Military Aircraft ...... 655W Government Departments: Databases...... 679W Armed Forces: Recruitment ...... 656W Mutual Societies ...... 680W Armed Forces: Young People...... 656W Open Government Partnership ...... 677W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 657W Public Bodies Bill [HL] ...... 680W AWE Aldermaston...... 657W Public Sector Mutuals...... 676W British Army Training Unit Suffield...... 657W Public Sector: Sick Leave ...... 680W Clyde Submarine Base ...... 658W Third Sector...... 681W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 658W Third Sector Organisations ...... 676W IRG...... 658W United Kingdom Statistics Authority: Italy: Unmanned Air Vehicles...... 659W Government Procurement Card...... 681W Nuclear Power Stations: Safety ...... 659W World War I: Anniversaries...... 682W Somalia: Peacekeeping Operations...... 659W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HEALTH—continued Warships ...... 660W NHS: Social Enterprises ...... 621W Yemen ...... 660W Organs: Donors ...... 627W Pain...... 629W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 667W Radiotherapy ...... 635W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 667W Stem Cells: Medical Treatments ...... 637W

EDUCATION...... 669W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 638W Children’s Centres ...... 669W Animal Experiments: EU Law ...... 638W Email ...... 671W Asylum ...... 638W New Schools Network...... 671W Crimes of Violence: Young Offenders ...... 639W Postgraduate Education: Finance...... 672W Departmental Consultants...... 639W Pupil Exclusions...... 672W Deportation: North Africa...... 640W Schools: Fire Extinguishers...... 673W Entry Clearances...... 640W Social Mobility ...... 673W Fireworks...... 640W Students: Transport...... 674W Gangs ...... 641W Voluntary Work: Young People...... 674W Hillsborough Independent Panel...... 641W Migration...... 641W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 642W Prisoners’ Release: Foreign Nationals ...... 641W Carbon Emissions: EU Law...... 642W Departmental Consultants...... 642W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 675W Energy...... 643W Departmental Buildings...... 675W Energy: Meters...... 643W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 675W Natural Gas: Exploration ...... 643W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 644W JUSTICE...... 668W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 668W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Prisons: Health Services...... 669W AFFAIRS...... 666W Reoffenders...... 670W Animal Welfare ...... 666W TRANSPORT ...... 644W Cattle: Exports...... 666W Departmental Procurement...... 644W Dogs ...... 666W Large Goods Vehicles ...... 645W Railway Stations: Greater London...... 645W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 661W Railways: Concessions ...... 645W Departmental Consultants...... 661W Rescue Services ...... 645W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 662W Shipping: Safety...... 646W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 662W Shipping: Scotland...... 647W Departmental Security ...... 662W Government Communications Headquarters: TREASURY ...... 647W Finance...... 663W Banks: Finance ...... 647W IRG...... 663W Civil Servants: Pensions ...... 648W Kosovo: Borders ...... 663W Departmental Consultants...... 648W UN Convention on Certain Conventional Equitable Life Assurance Society...... 648W Weapons ...... 664W Monetary Policy ...... 648W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 664W National Insurance Contributions: Gedling...... 649W World War I: Anniversaries...... 665W Research and Development Tax Credit ...... 649W Yemen ...... 665W Third Sector...... 649W

HEALTH...... 613W WALES...... 637W Departmental Consultants...... 613W Departmental Assets...... 637W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 613W Departmental Lost Property ...... 637W Depressive Illnesses...... 613W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 638W Diseases: EU Action ...... 614W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 638W Haemolytic Uremic Syndrome ...... 614W Health...... 616W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 667W Health Services ...... 617W Equality and Human Rights Commission: Hepatitis ...... 617W Manpower ...... 667W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 617W NHS Blood and Transplant: Pay...... 618W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 674W NHS: Older People ...... 621W Vacancies ...... 674W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Wednesday 2 November 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1MC CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1MC Olympic Games 2012: Scotland ...... 1MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 9 November 2011

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 2 November 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 905] [see index inside back page] Minister for Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Public Service Pensions [Col. 927] Statement—(Danny Alexander)

Devolved Administrations (Armed Forces Covenant Reports) [Col. 948] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Donaldson)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill [Col. 951] As amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

University Technical Colleges [Col. 1058] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Parliamentary Lobbying [Col. 265WH] Living Standards (Telford) [Col. 290WH] High-Speed Rail [Col. 298WH] Loft Conversions [Col. 321WH] Carbon Monoxide Poisoning [Col. 329WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 37WS]

Petition [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 613W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 1MC]