Friday Volume 574 24 January 2014 No. 111

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Friday 24 January 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 557 24 JANUARY 2014 558 House of Commons Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee, considered. Friday 24 January 2014 Third Reading

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock 9.44 am Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I beg to move, PRAYERS That the Bill be now read the Third time. I am moving Third Reading, Mr Speaker, with the consent of my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] (Mr Hollobone), who is the Member in charge of the Bill. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I beg to move, That the House sit in private. The Bill will make a small change, but one that will be very important for those affected, to the law on the Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163). process by which tenants can take advantage of the The House divided: Ayes 0, Noes 35. right to participate in collective enfranchisement and Division No. 192] [9.34 am extend the leases of their flats. I am conscious that the Bill was not debated in the Chamber on Second Reading AYES and that this morning provides the only opportunity to explain its purpose and the reasoning behind it. For the Tellers for the Ayes: Mr David Nuttall benefit of the House, I will set out the current position Mr Philip Hollobone and and the change the Bill seeks to make. The Bill is, I fear, a rather complex and technical NOES measure, but I will endeavour to explain it as simply as Alexander, Heidi Lewis, Brandon possible. We are fortunate that the issue in question has Berger, Luciana McCarthy, Kerry been the subject of litigation, although I am sure that Bottomley, Sir Peter McClymont, Gregg the participants in the litigation did not think that it Burden, Richard McVey, Esther was at all fortunate that they were so involved. It does Crausby, Mr David Milton, Anne Creasy, Stella Murray, Sheryll mean, however, that we can use a real-life case to Davies, Philip Phillips, Stephen illustrate the problem that the Bill seeks to solve. Docherty, Thomas Rees-Mogg, Jacob First, let me place on record my thanks to my hon. Duncan, rh Mr Alan Rogerson, Dan Friend the Member for Kettering, who presented the Ellison, Jane Sawford, Andy Bill as I was not able to attend the House on the date set Field, Mark Soubry, Anna for the presentation of Bills. He has calmly and without Fitzpatrick, Jim Spellar, rh Mr John complaint fielded the many inquiries that have arisen as Freer, Mike Stewart, Rory a result of the Bill’s title. I must apologise to the many Goodwill, Mr Robert Swire, rh Mr Hugo people outside the House who have corresponded with Green, rh Damian Thurso, John Timpson, Mr Edward me about leasehold reform and who had rather more Gyimah, Mr Sam ambitious aims for this Bill, and I regret that they might Hamilton, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: be somewhat disappointed by its lack of content. Hurd, Mr Nick Mr David Evennett and Javid, Sajid Mark Lancaster Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I am grateful to my hon. Friend and our hon. Friend the Question accordingly negatived. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) for bringing the Bill this far. May I sympathise with him and say that rather than putting the load of necessary leasehold reform and so on on to this Bill, which would not get through the House if it were expanded, we ought to try to ensure that we in this House, the Government and the property chamber bring together the problems, abuses and difficulties that leaseholders face and see whether we can find simple ways of making their lives easier and better?

Mr Nuttall: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention and I know that he has a specific and long-standing interest in leasehold reform. He is right to draw the House’s attention to the fact that this area of law is complex by any measure. Many outside the House also feel that it would benefit from simplification, whether by the Law Commission or by the Government of the day pulling together the different pieces of legislation that govern the leasehold tenure provisions. There is plenty of scope for improvement, and I think he would agree with me on that. 559 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill 560

[Mr Nuttall] procedure to enable a leaseholder to acquire a new lease. Currently, where a leaseholder wishes to give As I said, I fear that those outside the House who notice under either section 13 or section 42 of the 1993 have an interest in this area of law had rather ambitious Act, section 99(5)(a) provides that any notice served hopes for the Bill when they saw its title appear on the pursuant to either section 13 or section 42 must be—and Order Paper. However, as my hon. Friend will know, it this is the crucial part of the Act that we are hoping to is not really appropriate for a private Member’s Bill to remedy— try to deal with all the matters that he may have in mind “signed by each of the tenants, or (as the case may be) by the and would like to see resolved in future; it would run tenant, by whom it is given”. into all sorts of problems in the House if it did. As I will explain, that statutory provision has been Hon. Members will appreciate that private Members’ interpreted by the courts to mean that the notice must Bills are fairly narrow; they have to be, if they are to be signed personally by the tenant. Normally, solicitors make progress. It is not usual for them to make whole-scale can, and frequently do, sign legal documents for and on changes to a particular area of law. I should add at this behalf of their clients. It is also normally possible for point that unusually for a private Member’s Bill that has any person who chooses to do so to execute a power of reached this stage—Third Reading, the final stage in its attorney to appoint someone else to act on their behalf legislative process through the House—this is a genuine and sign legal documents on behalf of the donor of the private Member’s Bill. I say that not in any way to power. belittle private Members’ Bills that contain legislative proposals suggested by the Government of the day, Unusually, in my experience, this is one area of law because invariably—indeed, as we have seen in every where even a person holding a valid power of attorney Session of this Parliament—those Bills contain sensible would be prohibited from signing the notice on behalf measures, which are welcomed by those affected. However, of the donor. As the House can doubtless immediately this legislation demonstrates that it is entirely possible imagine, that could have potentially devastating for a Bill to make progress through the House even consequences for the affected person. Incidentally, the though it was not originally conceived within Government. same problem would arise where someone was appointed I have referred to the Bill as a genuine private Member’s by the Court of Protection to manage the affairs of Bill. However, I must pay tribute to the work of the someone else who, by reason of mental incapacity, was Association of Leasehold Enfranchisement Practitioners, unable to manage their own affairs. That would happen which brings together both solicitors and valuers who if an individual became mentally incapable of managing act on behalf of landlords and tenants in respect of their own affairs but had not previously entered into an collective enfranchisement and lease extension matters. enduring power of attorney, or what is now called a It seeks to promote best practice and has been campaigning lasting power of attorney; the difference between the for improvements to the legislation dealing with leasehold two terms is of little relevance. tenure, which, as I said, is a particularly complicated Before I proceed further, it may assist the House if I area of law. In particular, I wish to place on the refer to St. Ermin’s Property Company Ltd. v. Tingay, record my thanks to Mr John Midgley, the property the leading case on this issue. It concerned the validity enfranchisement partner at Seddons solicitors and a of a notice given under section 42 of the 1993 Act. I will member of the advisory committee of ALEP, for his refer to the facts of the case, as set out in the judgment sage advice and assistance. of Lord Justice Lloyd, sitting in the chancery division There are traditionally two types of tenure of land in of the High Court of Justice, on appeal from the this country: freehold and leasehold. An owner of the decision of His Honour Judge Morgan, sitting at Staines freehold interest in land may either retain the right to county court. occupy that land themselves or choose to allow someone In this case, the tenant of a first floor flat situated at else to occupy the land for a fixed period. The terms 10 Hill Court on Wimbledon Hill Road in London and conditions that govern the relationship between the SW19 held her property under a lease dated 14 May freeholder and the holder of the lesser interest in the 1976, which granted her and her husband a lease of land—the leaseholder—are set out in a document that 60 years less a few days. She maintained that the flat we all know as a lease. was occupied by her as her only or principal home for Initially, owners of long leases of dwelling houses almost the whole of the 10-year period up to the date were given the right to buy the freehold interest in the on which the notice was given, which was 11 October land on which the dwelling house was built by virtue of 2000. The tenant was elderly. By the time the High the Leasehold Reform Act 1967. However, that Act Court judgment was given on 19 July 2002, she was less applied only to houses; people who lived in flats were than a month short of her 90th birthday. excluded. Some 26 years later, long leaseholders living in blocks of flats gained what was called a collective In March 2000, the tenant moved out of the flat into right to buy the freehold of the blocks they lived in accommodation in which her needs could be better under the terms of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and attended to. In anticipation of her deteriorating health, Urban Development Act 1993. That Act also provided this elderly lady had done what we would think of as for a leaseholder to acquire a new lease to extend the the right thing to do: executed an enduring power of period of years for which they held the property. attorney that gave general authority to her son and daughter to act—jointly and separately—on her behalf. To commence the process by which the right of collective enfranchisement can begin it is necessary for The elderly lady’s lease was one to which the provisions a tenant to serve on their landlord a notice pursuant to of the 1993 Act applied, thus allowing her to claim the section 13 of the 1993 Act. A similar notice is required grant of a new lease. Accordingly a notice was given under section 42 of the Act to trigger the statutory under the terms of section 42 and, pursuant to the 561 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill 562 power of attorney, it was signed by her son. The landlord The judge went on to say: served a counter-notice that made four points, one of “I would only add that another respect in which a distinction which was that the notice did not appear to be in the was drawn in the legislation between a personal act and an act by correct form. The landlord then commenced legal an agent is to be found in the provision that I have mentioned, proceedings to seek a declaration that the tenant had no s 42(3)(e), under which the tenant’s notice may state the name of a right to acquire a new lease and that the notice was person appointed by the tenant to act for him in connection with invalid or defective. his claim. One might think it curious that the notice has to be given by At the county court hearing, the judge followed a the tenant, personally, in a situation in which the tenant has 1998 decision of His Honour Judge Cowell in the West already decided that dealings in connection with the claim are to London county court and held that the notice was not be with some other person, whether an attorney, a solicitor, valuer valid. However, the judge gave permission to appeal or whoever it may be, but the distinction is clear and it is, of because the point was not covered by any authority course, even clearer in the context of s 99(5) itself. I mention higher than the county court. s 42(3)(e) because it shows that in the wider context of the legislation there is other provision, which draws the same distinction. I shall quote directly from the High Court judgment For those reasons, which are much the same as Judge Cowell in of Mr Justice Lloyd, as he set out the problem succinctly. Viscount Chelsea v. Hirshorn…I hold that a notice under s 42 can He said: only be signed by the tenant, personally. A signature by an “It is a short point, but a somewhat puzzling one…As a attorney is invalid, and I therefore dismiss this appeal.” general proposition things that can be done by an individual may I think that that case clearly and vividly demonstrates be done either personally or by a duly authorised agent. That is not only why the Bill is such an important measure, but true under the common law generally, and under statute. There are, however, exceptions. In some cases the provision which allows why it is important that legislation passed by the House for, or requires, the thing to be done also prescribes that it must be is carefully scrutinised and that every effort is made to done personally and not by an agent. In other cases, the nature of consider all possible unintended consequences of new the thing is such that it requires personal skill or discretion, and laws. cannot be delegated.” I submit to the House that there are five simple Counsel for the tenant argued that to construe reasons why it is right that the Bill should be passed. section 99(5)(a) would produce unintended anomalies, First, the problem does not apply to leaseholders seeking but the judge held: to exercise their rights under the Leasehold Reform Act “However, whatever anomalies this provision may produce, or 1967. Someone living in a house does not have a problem; however much of a trap it may be for tenants and their advisers, I it is only leaseholders of flats who are affected by the agree with His Honour Judge Cowell that the distinction drawn in provision in the 1993 Act. Secondly, in respect of flats, the construction (in the sense of putting together, as opposed to the requirement for personal execution does not apply reading) of sub-s (5), between the method of signature of notices to landlords, so why on earth should tenants be under s 13 or s 42 on the one hand, and other notices on the other disadvantaged in such a way when landlords are not? hand, is so clear and so plainly deliberate that I cannot give s 99(5)(a) the meaning that it would have in isolation, and I must Thirdly, the Bill does not apply to other notices required interpret it as requiring personal signature by the tenant, and not to be served under the 1993 Act. It is purely the initial permitting signature on her behalf by anyone else, whether an trigger notices that have been found to need a personal ordinary agent or an attorney.” signature. Fourthly, the Bill will remove the disadvantage faced by tenants who, perhaps because of mental incapacity Sir Peter Bottomley: Will my hon. Friend give way? or physical disability, are unable to sign. Fifthly, the Bill removes the problems faced by tenants who are temporarily Mr Nuttall: I shall, although I am in the middle of a absent from the country, be that on business or on holiday. quotation. Bizarrely, if a tenant dies having occupied a qualifying property for two years prior to their death, it is possible for the executors or administrators of their estate to Sir Peter Bottomley: I apologise; I did not have foresight. serve a valid notice on the landlord, provided that they May I, through my hon. Friend, put it to the Minister do so within two years of the issue of a grant of that the Government need to consult senior judges to representation, so someone cannot sign a notice validly determine whether, following this Bill becoming an Act, if they are alive, but their executors can if they are dead. an overall provision is required so that any other unintended The House will be aware that the Bill was amended in consequences arising from the use of the word “personally” Committee. I place on record my thanks to all those can be sorted out without relying on good-natured who agreed to serve on the Committee. The Committee’s Members to promote Bills that make minor amendments sitting will always live in my memory and was particularly to major Acts that affect good people? poignant because it was the very last time that I spoke to Paul Goggins, the late Member for Wythenshawe and Mr Nuttall: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his Sale East, who graciously agreed to serve on the Committee. submission to the Government as it might well be that I remember that, as I left the room, he spoke to me for such a problem exists in other aspects of our body of the last time to thank me for my work on this matter. legislation. I agree that passing a catch-all provision The amendments agreed to in Committee essentially would make corrective legislation such as this private made two changes to the Bill. First, they provided that Member’s Bill unnecessary. the Bill would not apply to Wales. Since the 1993 Act The High Court judgment continued: was enacted, housing matters have been devolved to the “A signature by an attorney is still a signature on behalf of the Welsh Assembly. Consequently, even if the Bill reaches tenant rather than one by the tenant, in the terms of s 99(5), and the statute book, the requirement for tenants to sign would therefore be valid for the purposes of s 99(5)(b), but not notices personally under sections 13 and 42 of the 1993 valid for the purposes of s 99(5)(a).” Act will remain in Wales, unless the Assembly chooses 563 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill 564

[Mr Nuttall] individual tenants to sign notices personally, and he has set out a wide range of cases in which that has been a to pass a similar measure. The second small change real difficulty for people, no doubt including my made in Committee provides for the Bill to come into constituents. Although I have not been approached on force two months after the date on which it receives this subject directly, I am sure from his examples that Royal Assent, rather than the one month stated when many people across the country have been affected. the Bill was first published. The Bill would give solicitors, or someone else duly Tenants who are interested in taking advantage of authorised on a tenant’s behalf, such as an attorney, the their rights under the 1993 Act but who may be put off ability to sign the notices. It is more than 20 years since by the complexity of it all will be relieved to know that the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development help is available from a range of sources, including the Act 1993 was enacted, since when there has been significant Leasehold Advisory Service, which published a guide to amending legislation: the important Commonhold and collective enfranchisement called “Getting Started.” I Leasehold Reform Act 2002, which was passed by the apologise to that body because, if this Bill is enacted, it previous Labour Government. The 2002 Act gave important will have to amend that document. As page 13 of the new rights to tenants, but over the years it has become guide, which details what is required in the initial notice, apparent that there are still anomalies in the law that correctly states: should be addressed. One of those anomalies, as the “The Notice must be signed by all the participating tenants; no hon. Gentleman said, relates to the signing of notices one can sign on their behalf.” under sections 13 and 42 of the 1993 Act. Currently, the If we are successful in getting the Bill on to the statute notices must be personally signed by the individual book, the wording will need to be revised. I suggest: tenant, which can cause problems, for example when a “The notice must be signed by, or on behalf of, all the tenant has a disability and has given power of attorney participating tenants.” to a third party, or when notices need to be signed by A private Member’s Bill will generally not make any tenants based overseas. In many other areas, it is possible progress unless it has at least the tacit support of the for a solicitor or other authorised representative to sign Government of the day. I am grateful to officials in the on an individual’s behalf, but as the law currently stands, Department for Communities and Local Government that is not possible for signing notices under sections 13 for recognising the strength of the arguments in support or 42. The Government have been encouraged in this of this small legislative change. I thank them for their brief debate to consider other areas of the law in which help and advice on drafting, and on the technical aspects that is a problem, but it must be right that, having so of the Bill. I also thank the Government and Her clearly identified the anomaly as a problem in respect of Majesty’s Opposition for supporting the Bill. I thank leasehold, we take action. the staff of the Public Bill Office for helping me to If a tenant cannot sign personally, no claim for a navigate the legislative pathway that a Bill of this nature lease extension can be made. In the case of collective has to follow. enfranchisement for the acquisition of a freehold, that Finally, to aid the understanding of Members and may be prejudicial to getting a sufficient number of the wider public, explanatory notes were prepared and people involved. We therefore welcome the Bill making published with the Bill, but following the minor changes the necessary changes, and we will support its passage made in Committee and in order to bring the explanatory through the House. notes in line with the usual format, it is intended that I very much support the view expressed by the hon. the notes will be slightly amended and reissued before Gentleman that it is right for Back Benchers not only to the Bill is considered in the other place, if it is read a scrutinise and seek to improve legislation initiated by Third time this morning. The Bill is a small but important the Executive, but to seek to introduce legislation in this measure, and I commend it to the House. House in the interests of their constituents and the country. I fully support him in hoping that not only this 10.15 am but other private Members’ Bills, including my Bills, Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I congratulate which are further down today’s Order Paper, may pass the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) on through this House. championing the Bill through its various stages. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Kettering 10.19 am (Mr Hollobone), my constituency neighbour, who is the Member in charge of the Bill. Although there are many Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The only matters on which we differ, instead of rehearsing our connection I have with this Bill is that I was the hon. disagreements, as happens all too often in this place, we Member who had the privilege and honour to present it are focused on those causes on which we can agree, to the House. Any credit owing to it lies entirely with particularly our joint campaign to improve our local my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), hospital. I am pleased today to find common cause with who has brought to it and to this House his extensive him and with the hon. Member for Bury North, who professional experience in the law, acquired before he has spoken so strongly in support of the Bill and has set entered the House, and his diligence in scrutinising out why the change is needed. legislation and seeing how the law might be amended to As the hon. Member for Bury North said, this is a the benefit of his constituents and the country as a simple but important Bill that seeks to address a technical whole. That has been exemplified in the way in which he issue that can be frustrating for leaseholders trying to has guided this Bill through the House. exercise their rights to collective enfranchisement or to When you read the Bill and explanatory notes in a lease extension, without unduly affecting landlords in preparing for this morning’s debate, Mr Speaker, you the process. The Bill aims to remove the need for will have seen how short they are. We have two pieces of 565 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill 566 paper—a green piece for the Bill and a white piece that accurately, a false distinction between what a landlord explains it. The Bill is short, effective and to the point, or freeholder can do and what a leaseholder or those and it does what it says on the tin. It exemplifies acting on their behalf can do. The arguments for the legislation that is drafted by Back Benchers and brought Bill have been put very plainly, and I will go no further to the attention of the Executive of the day, draws on in that respect. I will say, though, that matters of the advice and expertise that Government counsel can professional standards should be considered. I hope provide to tweak it to make it perfect, and is then that those who look after the professional standards of steered through this House. I hope that its commendable lawyers—solicitors and barristers—and of accountants example will be followed in relation to other Bills brought and surveyors will give guidance to their members as to before the Chamber. whether they should use the nit-picking parts of the law I thank my hon. Friends the Members for as they see it while bouncing cases between the first-tier Wellingborough (Mr Bone), for Christchurch (Mr Chope), tribunal—the property chamber—and the county court, for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Clacton (Mr Carswell) which leads to costs going up. That allows a very for jointly sponsoring the Bill and having the good wealthy, well-resourced, clever, tricksy freeholder, or the sense and foresight to back it right at the start. managing agent working for them, to confound a In his extremely interesting and informative remarks, leaseholder or an ordinary tenant. I would expect people my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North quoted at in training for these revered professions to be told that if length from the legal judgment that made the case that their conduct is clearly unjust—though it may be lawful— legislation had to be defined as either personal or via an the professional standards bodies would consider a agent. This Bill has been introduced to the House via an complaint against them. agent—namely me, in the good name of my hon. Friend— My hon. Friends, with the co-operation of Opposition and it will have the effect of changing the legislation for and Government Front Benchers, are curing one injustice, those who seek to enter into property matters. That has but many others need to be addressed. Over the next a nice symmetry that is entirely the responsibility of my year and a half, we should aim to set up a way of good friend, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury gathering information on what can easily be done to North. make changes that improve the lives of ordinary people. We must ensure that those who are powerful, often 10.23 am greedy, and sometimes corrupt cannot make their living by ruining the lives of ordinary people, many of whom Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Some are elderly, vulnerable, poor and ill. will know of the controversy there can be over Speakers. No one can be sure whether George Thomas was an avuncular member of the establishment or a firebrand 10.27 am maverick, but what is certain is that his name is associated TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities with the leasehold reform of 1967. The conclusion of and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I congratulate leases on houses in Wales had led to a terrible injustice, my hon. Friends the Members for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) and he fought and gathered the forces to make reforms. and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) on bringing forward As my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North this Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) said, flats tend to be held under leases. It is has been leading on it since it was introduced by my fairly clear from the census that there are 5 million hon. Friend the Member for Kettering in June last year. leaseholds. With, let us say, one and a half people per I congratulate him on the progress that it has made flat, that amounts to 7.5 million leaseholders. Half the through this House so far and share his hope that it will properties in London are held under leasehold, and a continue to prosper. growing proportion of new ones will be leasehold as People may sometimes wonder why in Parliament we well. We know about the scandals in the retirement go through very small details and take great pains to sector. I will not go into the Office of Fair Trading explain them, but that is important in enabling us to get report on what Peverel and Cirrus did in ripping off on and get things done quickly. As my hon. Friend the their leaseholders because it is not relevant to the Bill. Member for Bury North said, this Bill is a good example In making the change proposed in the Bill, we consider of that. It originally went through without debate, so how two Government Departments and two extensions when the courts looked at these issues they were unable of Government ought to come together. What happens to see the intent that Parliament had as regards their in the courts is mainly a matter for the Ministry of ability to qualify personally in any way other than that Justice. Some property issues are considered at leasehold which they already had. The Bill is also a good example valuation tribunals when there is a dispute between the of why making a small difference is sometimes a very leaseholder and the managing agent acting on behalf of big deal for the people it affects. a freeholder, and those bodies reach their conclusions. In thinking about the help that this Bill can provide, However, there is no method whereby Siobhan McGrath, particularly to vulnerable leaseholders, we should recognise who heads the MOJ’s property chamber, and the that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West Department for Communities and Local Government (Sir Peter Bottomley) pointed out, the residential leasehold can come together to consider what is coming up through market is a large, growing and important part of the the courts, the issues brought forward by Members of housing sector. Leasehold plays a vital part in a functioning Parliament on behalf of their constituents, and what housing market, providing opportunities not only for comes from the Government agency, LEASE, which is home ownership, but for private renting. CentreForum’s a source of information for leaseholders in trouble. recent useful report, “A new lease of life”, estimates As my hon. Friend said, this Bill, which I hope will that there are approximately 2.5 million leasehold properties shortly become an Act, cures an unexpected court judgment across England, so a substantial number will potentially over an unintended use of words which describe, though be affected by the Bill. 567 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill 568

Sir Peter Bottomley: The Minister rightly refers to the and that its extent is appropriate, thanks to some brief CentreForum report, which I think is one of the best and well-targeted amendments that they, along with my reports produced in the past few years. Although the hon. Friend the housing Minister, tabled in Committee. Minister uses its estimate, I think it would now accept By amending section 99(5) of the Leasehold Reform, that the census data mean that there are twice as many Housing and Urban Development Act 1993, the Bill people involved. It may be possible for us to come to an removes current restrictions on who can sign the legal agreement on what the numbers are—though not necessarily notices required when leaseholders exercise certain statutory today—but we should try to use a figure that is more rights. The 1993 Act gave leaseholders of flats a range likely to be right. of very important rights. It is a valuable and effective piece of legislation, but it also includes a particular Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a fair point. restriction, as we have heard, on signatories of notices. The reality is that, with every day that passes—certainly Removing that restriction is the focus of this Bill. with every month that passes—the number of people accessing the market is likely to grow. That highlights At present, the leaseholder of a flat who wants to the importance of the Bill. It appears, on the face of it, extend their lease or take part in acquiring the freehold to be short and simple, but it is actually an example of of their block must personally sign the legal notices the way in which Parliament sometimes has the ability required. No one else is allowed—even acting under a to make a beneficial difference to people’s lives. power of attorney—to sign on behalf of a leaseholder who is physically unable to do so. Case law confirms Leaseholds can be complex and problematic—hence that the legislation that this Bill seeks to amend can be the Bill. That is primarily because this is a sector in interpreted only in a way as to require personal signature which a wide range of different interests—financial and by the leaseholder, and that it does not permit signature otherwise—exist in the same property, which inevitably on behalf of a leaseholder by anyone else, whether they creates scope for conflict. Ultimately, this relates to be an ordinary agent or attorney. That includes when a people’s homes, an issue towards which we naturally leaseholder has become the subject of mental incapacity have strong feelings of protection. I assure the House and the Court of Protection has issued a direction. that I am aware of the range of issues that can arise, and the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and The High Court case of St Ermin’s Property Company Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Ltd v. Tingay in 2002 concluded that the signature of Keighley (Kris Hopkins), who has responsibility for someone holding a power of attorney would not comply housing, will be listening carefully to any concerns. with the existing requirements of the 1993 Act. Put briefly, that particular appeal case concerned the validity I thank members of the Committee who considered of a notice given to the landlord by the relatives of an the Bill in December. In particular, I thank the hon. elderly leaseholder who had to move to accommodation Member for Angus (Mr Weir) for chairing the Committee where she could be better attended to. The relatives and presiding over a short but good natured and were acting under an enduring power of attorney that constructive debate. Given the speed with which the Bill had been executed, giving them general authority to act has progressed, it is important, as my hon. Friend the on the elderly leaseholder’s behalf. The intention was to Member for Bury North has said, to put on record the extend the lease of the flat using the statutory rights to intent, purpose and detail behind it so that, as my hon. ensure that the elderly leaseholder’s interests were protected. Friend the Member for Worthing West has said, we do However, the High Court concluded that the legislation our bit to ensure that in future there are no further requires personal signature by the leaseholder and does issues of interpretation with which a court might struggle. not permit a signature on the leaseholder’s behalf by It is a particular pleasure at this Friday morning anyone else, whether they be an ordinary agent or an sitting to welcome the cross-party support provided by attorney. the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), for which I thank him. I am pleased that, on That case is so important to the genesis of the Bill the day of the Committee sitting, the hon. Member for that I want to set out briefly a particular aspect of the City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods)—who, as judge’s summing up. He said: I understand it, stepped in at short notice—also gave “I find it difficult to understand quite why personal signature cross-party support. I thank her for helping the Bill should be required in relation to a Section 42 notice by an progress. individual tenant. However, the words of the Section are very clear.” I endorse the tribute given by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North to the late right hon. Member That backs up the point made by my hon. Friends the for Wythenshawe and Sale East, who was a member of Members for Bury North and for Worthing West. The the Bill Committee, which sat shortly before the Christmas judge also said: recess. He is sorely missed by the House. “One might think it curious that the notice has to be given by the tenant, personally, in a situation in which the tenant has I am pleased to say that the Government fully support already decided that dealings in connection with the claim are to the Bill and will continue to do so as it goes to the other be with some other person, whether an attorney, a solicitor, valuer place, where I hope it will get a fair wind. As my hon. or whoever it may be, but the distinction is clear and it is, of Friend has said, responsibility for it will pass into the course, even clearer in the context of section 99(5) itself.” hands of my noble Friend Baroness Williams of Trafford. The judge could not have set out the nature of the I am confident that she will win wide support and problem more strongly. He could find in the law—as it sympathy for the Bill and steer it safely through the still stands—no scope for ambiguity and no opportunity other place. to take a flexible approach. Hon. Members will be clear My hon. Friends the Members for Bury North and about the very serious hurdle that the current legislation for Kettering are also to be congratulated on ensuring presents to certain leaseholders. It is a problem that this that the Bill can effectively achieve its worthwhile aim House today has an opportunity to help remove. 569 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill 570

As the judge explained, we unfortunately do not “requiring personal signature by the tenant, and not permitting know Parliament’s intention in framing section 99 as it signature on her behalf by anyone else, whether an ordinary agent did, because there was little or no debate about the or an attorney.” issues. That highlights the Bill’s importance and I thank The Bill will rectify that problem. my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North for taking his time to go through exactly why it matters. The Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I have been listening Government believe it is important to put clearly on the carefully. The Bill seems to be perfect. Everyone is in record why this Bill matters and the beneficial impact it accord with it and thinks it is sensible. I just do not could have. Should the judiciary come to look at the understand why we seem to be making a mountain out provision in future, I hope it will be able to see a clear of a molehill, and why we cannot speed this up and just outline of Parliament’s intent in framing it. As my hon. do it. Friend the Member for Worthing West has said, it will allow the courts to consider the general intent of Parliament Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for what I with regard to personal issues. think is a helpful intervention, as well as for supporting the Bill. He is quite right. I suspect that one query Sir Peter Bottomley: May I emphasise the point— received by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North although I do not think that judges need it to be when the issue first came to his attention was that this is over-emphasised—that most people give power of attorney a 1993 Act and we are now in 2014—he introduced the or ask somebody else to sign for them when they are Bill in 2013—so why has it taken so long to find a way incapable of signing themselves? Broadly speaking, they of dealing with this problem. That is a reasonable tend to be the most vulnerable, such as the old, the question to ask, but the reality is that we now have the infirm and people who have a condition that makes it opportunity to correct the situation. It is quite right to impossible for them to write, even though they may deal with it, and I congratulate my hon. Friends the have all their senses. For example, I have a constituent Members for Bury North and for Kettering on doing who has lost both his hands. How would he sign, except just that. perhaps with a mouth brush? One way or another, the judiciary has to accept, or Parliament should enact, Mr Hollobone: I am following my hon. Friend’s excellent that unless a court believes there is a specific reason why speech with great interest. He made a particularly powerful signatures should be made personally, a signature should point about the value of scrutinising legislation. However, be allowed to be made on someone’s behalf if they are the benefits of the Bill will not extend to Wales, and incapable or unwilling to do it themselves but wish the premises in Wales will be unaffected by the changes. act to take place. Can he hear the cries going up throughout Wales, in the valleys and elsewhere, “Let us have the Nuttall amendment or the Nuttall provision”? Will he do all he can, through Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point. his good offices, to provide the National Assembly for To reinforce his comments and because it is important Wales with whatever assistance it needs to pass similar to make clear the Bill’s intent in relation to giving legislation? people the ability to act sensibly and reasonably through a power of attorney and agents, I want to quote the judge again. Of the 1993 Act, he said: Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I suspect people in Wales are thinking right now, “It seems to me that the words are clear and that whether there in relation to their legislation, that a little bit of Nuttall be good reasons, bad reasons or no reasons, the provision is clear. in Wales would do them a whole world of good. It is clearly deliberate, and the only way in which one could avoid giving the Section its literal effect is by finding that it produces My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob some anomaly so serious that it cannot have been intended.” Stewart) queried why the change has not been made He went on that counsel for the landlord before. I appreciate that he came into the Chamber only a short time ago, but I again underline the importance “submits that the reading, which does not permit a signature by of this debate as a chance for all hon. Members to put an agent, does produce situations that cannot have been intended. the clear intent of Parliament on the record. The The tenant in the present case is not, in fact, incapable, but what if she were?” requirements on signatories do not appear to have been debated during the passage of the 1993 Act, which is a My hon. Friend outlined the case of someone who is good reminder of why it is sometimes important for vulnerable or incapable. The judge continued: parliamentarians to put clearly on the record why we do “Or what if the tenant were mentally capable but paralysed so things, not just to assume that our intent in passing as to be unable, physically, to impose anything by way of a legislation is clear and obvious. It is a great testament to signature on a document?” that point that we are doing this work this morning. All those issues need to be dealt with. The judge also The existing restrictions perhaps aim to ensure that said that the individual leaseholder is fully aware of the commitment “whatever anomalies this provision may produce, or however they enter into, given the significant financial liabilities much of a trap it may be for tenants and their advisers, I agree that arise from serving the notices concerned. As my with His Honour Judge Cowell that the distinction drawn in the hon. Friend the Member for Bury North has outlined, construction…of sub-section (5), between the method of signature the Bill will enable legal notices to be signed on the of notices under section 13 or section 42 on the one hand, and leaseholder’s behalf and that change will help, among other notices on the other hand, is so clear and so plainly others, those physically disabled, seriously ill or mentally deliberate that I cannot give section 99(5)(a) the meaning that it incapacitated leaseholders who are currently unable to would have in isolation, and I must interpret it as” benefit financially and otherwise from the exercise of —this is the important part of the quotation— rights enjoyed by able-bodied leaseholders. 571 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill 572

[Brandon Lewis] appropriate authority, on their behalf in respect the property, it may be difficult for them to exercise their The Bill is clearly focused on helping a particular statutory rights. Again, that was clearly not Parliament’s group of leaseholders, many of whom are likely to be intent. elderly and vulnerable. As such, it has received warm The Bill might also help an aid worker serving overseas words of support from both sides of the House, which I in a remote location, where postal services are infrequent am sure is appreciated by my hon. Friend. That reflects and unreliable. If they want to extend the lease on their my hon. Friends’ efforts in gathering support for the property back home in England, they will need to Bill, and in highlighting the benefits that it will enable receive a paper copy of a document, and they then have some currently frustrated leaseholders to enjoy. to sign and return it. In some parts of the world, even in The changes made by the Bill to the 1993 Act may today’s modern age, that can take months, involve worry affect only a relatively small number of leaseholders of and delay, and create problems about getting the work flats in England, but they might be very important for done. If the absent or incapacitated person is the sole those leaseholders currently unable, for one reason or leaseholder, even their husband or wife cannot validly another, to sign the requisite legal notices in person. As sign notices on their behalf. my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering has rightly If an individual leaseholder who lives or works abroad pointed out, the Bill applies only to England, so I hope is hindered in that way, it could have an unfortunate that the devolved Assembly will look at the provision knock-on effect on other leaseholders in their block. and perhaps introduce it in Wales. As I have said, those For example—we have examples of this in this country—a helped by this Bill will often be elderly and more vulnerable group of leaseholders may want to exercise their collective leaseholders. The removal of current restrictions will right to acquire the freehold of their block, but to also help those who are charged with looking after the satisfy the qualifying criteria they may need one or financial affairs of a leaseholder. The example of relatives more leaseholders who live or work abroad to sign the acting under a power of attorney was given by my hon. documents. Although the Bill would not make any Friend the Member for Worthing West. change to leaseholders’ actual rights—we must be clear One sad situation that was brought to a colleague’s about that—it could helpfully remove a practical barrier attention concerns an elderly leaseholder living in a to the efficient exercise of those rights. leasehold retirement development who, because of severe Let us also consider an elderly person who is physically illness, unfortunately had to go into a nursing home to fit, but who for years has been accustomed to relying on be cared for. I give this example because it is important their long-standing family solicitor to act for them in all to provide some colour and life on exactly how the legal and administrative affairs. They may decide to change will make a beneficial impact to people’s lives. take part in the collective purchase of the freehold of The leaseholder’s relatives were looking after her financial their much-loved home, but in that case, the solicitor affairs under a power of attorney, and could therefore simply could not validly sign the documents on their deal with almost all matters that needed taking care of. behalf. As she became more unwell, it was necessary for her Since the 1993 Act, we have—I hope—become more leasehold property to be sold to assist in paying the care aware of the challenges faced by individuals who become home fees. That is where her relatives reached what can mentally or physically incapacitated for one reason or only be described as a bizarre situation: they could sell another. Sadly, as that Act stands, even someone acting the flat using the power of attorney, but they simply under the direction of the Court of Protection cannot could not act on her behalf to extend her lease. They sign the requisite notices. A possible alternative could therefore had the frustration and sadness of being be for the leaseholder to take the major step of assigning unable to make the most of their elderly relative’s assets the lease of their property to a trustee, and setting up for her benefit simply because they were not permitted what is known as a “bare trust”. Again, the decision on to sign the vital leasehold paperwork on her behalf. Tingay is very relevant. The counsel for the landlord Had they been able to do so, it is very likely that the flat, states that with the attraction of an extended lease, would have secured a higher selling price, and maximising the value “it is possible to avoid difficulties of these sorts. What one could of their relative’s assets in that way would have helped do would be to assign the lease to one or more trustees, who would hold it on a bare trust for the former tenant, who could meet the fees of a suitable care home for her final days. serve a notice relying on the qualifying—” It is important to give more examples of the people who will be helped by this Bill. For instance, limbless or Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I severely injured Army veterans face many problems. have been listening carefully to the Minister and to what They may wish to extend the lease on their home and to has been said previously, and I think he is taking rather enjoy the financial benefits that such action could bring, a long time to make his point. We do not need to go but, owing to their disability, they might no longer be through all those case studies because everybody in the able to hold a pen and to sign vital papers. As the law House is clear, and what the Bill does has been mentioned now stands, for that reason alone they are frustrated several times. I would be grateful if he would make a from exercising their important legal right as the leaseholder. little progress. There is no way that that was the intent of Parliament when the Act was passed, and it is right to get through Brandon Lewis: I appreciate your point, Madam Deputy this Bill for that reason alone. Speaker, but I was just giving a two-line quote before The Bill may help leaseholders living abroad who summing up the debate. We must bear in mind that this need to sign notices. For example, work may take the Bill is before the House today because previously, Parliament leaseholder of a flat abroad for a prolonged period. was not that specific or clear about its intent, and that is Without the ability to have someone act, with the what Members have been debating this morning. 573 Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill 24 JANUARY 2014 574

Unfortunately, the creation of a bare trust is not a Deep Sea Mining Bill practical option for many people. The procedure could Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill well be cumbersome and expensive to use, and the Committee decisions and processes involved would place a heavy burden on a vulnerable leaseholder. It may be helpful to the House if I—very briefly, Schedule Madam Deputy Speaker—explain the amendments made to the Bill in Committee, which are reflected in the AMENDMENTS OF DEEP SEA MINING version of the Bill before the House today. The minor (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS)ACT 1981 and technical amendments were intended to ensure that the proposed amendment to section 99(5) of the Leasehold 10.55 am Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993 fully achieves its aims and is appropriately drafted. In Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I beg to move particular, a small amendment was made so that, provided amendment 1, page 5, line 32, insert— it completes all its parliamentary stages and receives ‘In section 5 (Protection of the marine environment) leave out Royal Assent, the resultant Act will come into force two sections (1) and (2) and insert— months after it is passed, as is the usual convention, “(a) In determining whether to grant an exploration or rather than after only one. exploitation licence the Secretary of State must not grant a licence unless and until it can be demonstrated It was also necessary to address the extent of the Bill. that there are no indications for likely irreversible and The 1993 Act applies to England and Wales, but in the or significant adverse effects as defined by the United 20-odd years since then much has changed, and housing Nations’ General Assembly / UN Food and Agricultural is now, of course, a devolved issue in the Principality. It Organisation on the marine ecosystems and communities was therefore essential to ensure that the Bill does not impacted by one or more of these operations. The affect the existing application of section 99(5) to Wales—my absence of any such indications must be demonstrated through full and transparent prior environmental impact hon. Friend the Member for Kettering highlighted that assessments and strategic impact assessments, which point. In other words, the provisions in the Bill would are required to be publicly evaluated and reviewed. apply only to residential leaseholders of flats in England. (b) In determining whether to grant an exploration or The Bill will offer help and hope to some leaseholders exploitation licence the Secretary of State must take who might otherwise face an insurmountable hurdle in into consideration the environmental definitions and seeking to exercise their rights. It will also, I hope, give designations of international bodies, including but greater peace of mind to the families and friends who not limited to the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) scientific criteria for ‘Ecologically or Biologically care for them. I am pleased to give the Government’s Significant marine Areas (EBSAs)’, the CBD guidance support to the Bill. I hope it will receive Third Reading for the design of representative networks of Marine today and pass successfully through the House of Lords Protected Areas (MPAs), and the food and Agricultural and receive Royal Assent. Organisation (FAO) criteria for the identification of ‘Vulnerable Marine Ecosystems’ (VMEs) and any 10.54 am other related treaties which may come into force.”.’. The amendment seeks to improve the environmental Mr Nuttall: With the leave of the House, I thank all requirements of the licences that come through the UK hon. Members who have spoken in support of the Bill state system. I thank the World Wildlife Fund UK for this morning, including my hon. Friends the Members its help in drafting the amendment, which it stresses is for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) and for Worthing West not “wildly ambitious”. It does not express environmental (Sir Peter Bottomley), and the hon. Member for Corby ideals that are impossible to achieve, but it is consistent (Andy Sawford). I also thank the Minister for the with environmental definitions in existing international Government’s support for the Bill. As has been said, it treaties. is a short but important measure that has the capacity to improve the lives of those who will be affected. They The deep seas are poorly understood ecosystems and will be extremely grateful that the House has taken the no one knows exactly what is down there. The findings time and trouble to pass this small measure this morning, of environmental assessments are not shared, so scientists and I commend the Bill to the House. and non-governmental organisations do not know whether there are things that are new, rare, endangered, or Question put and agreed to. indeed that could be used for other extractive purposes—for Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. example, the pharmaceutical industry might well be interested in what is on the sea bed. I was concerned that on Second Reading some Government Back-Bench Members who did not see a need to improve environmental safeguards were working on a misguided assumption that, as one said, the environmental effect of mining is not permanent “and the habitat will return to its normal state after the mining ceases in an area.”—[Official Report, 6 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 610.] As we discussed in Committee, however, without better measures in place to protect deep sea ecosystems, mining could cause irreversible damage or have serious adverse effects on marine communities, specifically hydrothermal vent communities, which were only discovered in 1977, 575 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 576

[Kerry McCarthy] any changes to, the environmental provisions set out in section 5. That is the nub of our concern. In fact, and seamounts, which have taken 10,000 years to develop section 5, which states that the Secretary of State and have low resilience to change. As home to the “shall have regard to the need to protect (so far as reasonably largest reservoir of marine genetic resources, hydrothermal practicable) marine creatures… and other organisms and their vent communities are of huge interest to science and habitat”, pharmaceutical companies, some of which have patents is even weaker than the ISA’s current environmental on their products. Mining could destroy those resources thresholds, which set a threshold of “serious harm” to before they are understood or even discovered. the marine environment to disapprove a licence. The amendment would reverse the burden of proof Section 5 is very outdated, with its use of words such in section 5 of the 1981 Act, in line with the precautionary as “regard”, “reasonably practical” and “creatures”. It principle that if there are indications of likely but allows for subjective interpretation and is not specific uncertain significant adverse environmental impacts, an enough. I am surprised that the Government have not activity should not be authorised to proceed. The sought to update it. To quote the Minister who spoke amendment would require environmental impact on Second Reading, the right hon. Member for North assessments to be carried out before exploration or East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), exploitation takes place, and for the process to be “environmental protection is at the heart of the application that is transparent so that it can be publicly evaluated. That made by the United Kingdom when sponsorship applications are would also address the serious weakness in the system made.”—[Official Report, 6 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 633.] that if a contractor considers the environmental risk of My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry mining to be too high prior to the environmental impact Gardiner) put forward the need for the section to be assessment, that concession could still be offered to improved. The right hon. Gentleman made a commitment another contractor. that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office would take Greater transparency in the system would also help a “hard look” at whether section 5 needed to be to address weaknesses in monitoring the compliance of strengthened. The Minister did not elaborate further in companies with environmental regulations and the terms Committee. I am not sure whether the Minister present of licences. It is difficult, as one can imagine, to make today can respond to my amendment by giving further site visits in deep sea areas to ensure that work is carried evidence of the findings of any investigation that the out correctly, and the current process is not properly FCO carried out after Second Reading. I got the impression independent of contractor influence. NGOs will not in that debate, as did others, that the Government might know whether an activity authorised by licence is damaging, be open to improvements along those lines. and it would be up to the contractor to stop and self-assess. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It was made I was pleased that in Committee, the Minister—on clear on Second Reading that companies wishing to that occasion the Minister for Europe—confirmed that exploit minerals on the sea bed had the opportunity of the Government want a coherent system between the essentially shopping around the world and that they International Seabed Authority’s regime and other could apply for a licence wherever they wanted to. Is the international treaties. The amendment also seeks to hon. Lady concerned that if we have provisions in our align the Bill better with environmental definitions and legislation that are more onerous and demanding than designations of international bodies, which the Bill those of other countries, we might be doing the sea bed currently does not consider. For example, the Food and a disservice, because those companies might obtain a Agriculture Organisation’s committee on fisheries defines licence elsewhere in order to avoid our legislation? vulnerable marine ecosystems in the high seas where bottom fishing cannot take place. Those include breeding Kerry McCarthy: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid grounds for orange roughy, which are often fished for point. Indeed, my understanding is that at the moment around hydrothermal vents—the same areas that could a company does not even need a licence to explore. be open to deep sea mining. Ideally, we would want everyone to go through the ISA Although the Bill’s promoter, the hon. Member for regime, and a respectable and reputable company would North East Cornwall, has said— want to do that and follow the correct procedures, but I understand that there is nothing stopping them doing that. It is an ideological debate that we could have at Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I just great length in relation to many different areas of policy. want to make the hon. Lady aware that my constituency We could look at labour terms and conditions, for is South East Cornwall. example, or health and safety rules. I do not think that we should be involved in a race to the bottom—actually, Kerry McCarthy: I am terribly sorry. South East perhaps that is exactly what we are talking about. We Cornwall is written in my notes, so I do not know why I want to ensure that the UK sets an example by requiring said North East Cornwall—territorial ambitions do not companies to act responsibly. Our natural resources are stop at the deep seas. incredibly precious, and I think that we should be taking the lead in trying to ensure that we protect the environment. 11 am The timing of the Bill is slightly strange, as was the The hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll timing of the 1981 Act. The Act was introduced a year Murray) has said that the UK needs to amend the 1981 before the United Nations convention on the law of the Act to impose stringent and clear environmental conditions, sea was finalised, although it then took about eight but the Bill will not actually strengthen, or indeed make years to come into effect. The ISA will look at its 577 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 578 regulations, which will obviously apply on a wider basis, Since I have been in charge of the Bill, I have learned next year, so in some ways the Bill pre-empts that. a lot about deep sea mining. In particular, I have Perhaps there could have been better co-ordination. It is become very conscious of the importance of environmental also slightly strange that we have been talking about conditions, which will have to be taken into account updating the 1981 Act since 1982, so it has taken an once deep sea mining becomes a reality. Of course, we awfully long time to reach this point. I think we need to are looking only at exploration. I understand that the drive the agenda forward. I accept that we do not want UK has issued one licence for exploration, and another to disadvantage British companies, but we want to one is going through, but exploitation, as the hon. Lady ensure that there is a reputable and reasonable regime in mentioned, is a long way off. I know that the Government place. are very aware of environmental issues and am sure that The Government have said that they will keep to their commitment to ensure the application of the highest environmental standards. I can assure “the environmental protections in section 5 of the 1981 legislation have proved entirely sufficient, as have the inspections”, Members on both sides of the Chamber that I, too, will be very astute to ensure that happens. but only two licences have been issued so far, both for exploration. Exploitation of resources is an entirely Section 5 of the 1981 Act will not be amended by the different matter, and the very purpose of the Bill is Bill, except for technical changes to include references forward thinking, to cover licences for exploitation that to Scottish Ministers. I believe that that is a real benefit is at least five years away. In the case of oil and gas, to Scotland and the United Kingdom. Section 5 already which it will also open the doors to, it is still further includes provisions to ensure that protection of the away in the future. marine environment is taken into account, and indeed is at the forefront of the Secretary of State’s mind, when If the amendment is made, I do not think that it licences are issued. While I sympathise with the hon. would make the regime overly burdensome. As I have Lady’s concerns, I do not think the amendment is said, the proposal is moderate and consistent with other necessary. I understand also that the Minister will raise international designations. However, it would boost one some technical objections to it and that the Government of the Government’s reasons for introducing the Bill, will not support it. In those circumstances, I hope that which is to help to increase the UK’s influence in she will not press the amendment, so that the Bill can current negotiations and in determining standards, as I make progress. said to the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall). I appreciate that the ISA regulatory framework is of greater importance because it applies to all deep sea The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth mining, not just those activities that get sponsorship Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I was interested to hear some from the UK. In which case, let us apply the environmental of the suggestions made this morning, as I have attended standards that we would like to see agreed in the some, although not all, of the consideration of the Bill negotiations, rather than keep the 1981 version. They as it has made progress. The Government completely are workable standards that we hope will be applied at understand the sentiments that have led the hon. Member ISA level to enable sea bed mining to go ahead without for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) and the hon. Member causing irreparable damage. As I mentioned, I did not for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) to table the amendment get a direct response from the Minister in Committee —the hon. Gentleman is not in his place today, but he on the level of environmental safeguards that the has been an assiduous attendee previously.The Government Government are seeking to get common agreement on are committed to ensuring that the highest environmental during the ISA negotiations, although I was pleased standards are followed when exploration and exploitation that he made it clear that the international framework of the deep sea bed take place. As the hon. Lady said, can and should be improved, as can section 5. we are often—pardon the pun—in uncharted waters: this is new and exploratory, so environmental considerations Sheryll Murray: I thank the hon. Member for Bristol need to be at the forefront of our proposals. East (Kerry McCarthy), who, along with her colleagues As hon. Members will know, the Government were the hon. Members for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), approached 18 months ago by a major commercial for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), for Scunthorpe company, Lockheed Martin, to sponsor its application (Nic Dakin), for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), to explore for minerals on the deep sea bed. When we for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) and for Edinburgh North received that approach, we took great pains to ensure and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), and the hon. Member that the environmental standards were the best that for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), tabled the could be devised. The Department for Environment, amendment. I know that they all feel strongly about Food and Rural Affairs was closely involved, as were the need to protect the environment. two eminent scientists from outside the Government. Coming, as I do, from what I consider to be the When the application reached the council of the beautiful county in Cornwall, I of course sympathise International Seabed Authority, the environmental aspects strongly with those hon. Members. [Interruption.] The were generally praised by delegations. At the meeting of Minister indicates that I might come from the second the council last year, when the first discussion of the most beautiful county, so perhaps I should have referred possible shape of future regulations took place, the to the wider south-west. Furthermore, I come from a Government made it clear that they would expect those fishing background, so I know well the impact that regulations to incorporate environmental provisions of pollution can have on fishermen and their livelihoods. I the highest standards. also know that in some of the areas that the Bill relates The British Government have already spoken and to it would be very difficult to fish for species such as acted in a manner that will ensure that the highest orange roughy, as the hon. Member for Bristol East environmental standards are adhered to, and I know indicated. that the need to protect the natural environment has 579 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 580

[Mr Hugo Swire] in considering the environmental aspects of mining when it does take place. As the hon. Lady acknowledged universal support across the House. However, the in Committee, mining on the deep sea bed will eventually Government cannot support the amendment, and I take place. shall try to explain why. The amendment refers to a number of other international Section 5 of the 1981 Act, to which the hon. Member instruments. The Government are entirely conscious of for Bristol East and my hon. Friend the Member for the current developments in international environmental South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) referred, already law, and have for example been at the forefront of includes clear provisions on the need to protect the international action on climate change—as is well marine environment. I know that on Second Reading recognised. It is clear therefore that international the hon. Member for Brent North suggested that section 5 developments will be, and will have to be, taken into might not be sufficiently up to date, but we do not account when decisions on whether to issue licences are believe that to be the case. Section 5 is worded in a eventually made. But we should not limit ourselves in general manner and can accommodate changes to this way. There may be national developments, or environmental perspectives. developments in the European Union, that should also be taken into account. The current text of section 5 of Kerry McCarthy: The point that my hon. Friend the the 1981 Act already allows for this and indeed, in this Member for Brent North and I have been making is that respect, is wider in its ambit than the amendment. For post 1981 it has been clearly established that the that reason, the Government do not support the precautionary principle, agreed at Rio, should apply, amendment. and it is missing here. It is the reversal of the burden of proof that will be missing if we stick to the 1981 Act. It Kerry McCarthy: I remind the Minister that the is important to reflect in the Bill the extent to which the amendment says precautionary principle has been accepted. “including but not limited to”. We were conscious when drafting the amendment that 11.15 am we did not want to limit it to just those treaties cited, so that other laws and treaties agreed over time would be Mr Swire: The hon. Lady is right, but we also want included. companies to come here, and therefore we want to ensure that our environmental protections are the best Mr Swire: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for clarifying and are in place. We are convinced they are and that that point. section 5 of the 1981 Act is worded in a general manner Of course the Government will continue to expect that can accommodate changes to environmental that the International Seabed Authority, in its decision- perspectives. We do not believe that the amendment making process, should work towards meeting agreed would add anything to the legislation. international standards with respect to protection of On Second Reading, the hon. Member for Brent the environment, and should utilise the latest information North referred to the precautionary approach in principle about the importance of marine areas. The Government 15 of the Rio declaration. But the International Tribunal recognise that the work being carried out under the for the Law of the Sea made it clear in its 2011 advisory convention on biological diversity to identify ecologically opinion that sponsoring states should comply with the and biologically significant areas, along with the terms of principle 15, as well as best environmental identification of vulnerable marine ecosystems, provide practices. In exercising his functions to issue licences authoritative information that needs to be taken into under the Act, the Secretary of State would have to account within the processes of the International Seabed comply with those provisions. Authority. Furthermore, let me assure hon. Members In addition, by replacing the whole of the current that the secretariat of the ISA is highly expert and, in section 5, the amendment would lose two key elements. particular, well aware of international developments in The requirement at the end of subsection (1) for the the environmental field. I think, therefore, that the Secretary of State to consider any representations would House can have confidence that these developments will be lost, as would the power in subsection (2) for the not be overlooked. Secretary of State to include in licences provisions In conclusion, the Government sympathise with the about protection of the marine environment. On those reasons that have led the hon. Members for Bristol East two technical grounds alone, the amendment cannot be and for Brent North to table the amendment. We have supported. had an interesting debate, but as I have said, the More substantively, the amendment would require a Government cannot support it and are satisfied that full environmental impact assessment, even before section 5 of the 1981 Act is sufficient. In the light of exploration is carried out. However, as the hon. Member this, I hope that the hon. Lady will feel able to withdraw for Bristol East conceded, exploration of the deep sea her amendment. bed involves minimal disturbance of the marine environment and no commercial company would be Kerry McCarthy: I thank the Minister for his response, expected to undertake a full environmental assessment although he has not entirely set my mind at rest. I would in those circumstances. The Bill should not be about have liked the Bill to build on the environmental protections preventing responsible companies from undertaking set out in the 1981 Act, given that we have moved on responsible exploration. On the contrary, the Government considerably since then, and I would have liked the believe that we should actively encourage exploration of precautionary principle firmly established in the Bill, the deep sea bed. That is because the scientific information because that is where we are at now with environmental obtained through exploration will be an essential element protection internationally, but I do not intend to press 581 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 582 the amendment. With respect to the Minister, however, and Southampton university have departments looking he is the third Minister to deal with the Bill—there was into and gaining a lot of expertise in this area, which is one Minister on Second Reading, one in Committee unknown to many of us. and now another on Report and Third Reading—and Sea bed mining has enormous potential. Scientists there will be yet another Minister in the Lords. Furthermore, know that lying on the sea bed, at great depths, are I am the second Labour spokesperson to deal with it. I valuable new sources of nickel, copper, cobalt, manganese hope in the Lords, therefore, there will be an opportunity and rare earth elements. These metals are being mined for detailed scrutiny to ensure that we tie things together to extinction on land, so we need to find new sources. and take the Bill forward properly. Metals such as nickel, used in superalloys, cobalt and manganese, used in energy storage technology, which Mr Swire: The hon. Lady ought to be a little more will obviously benefit everybody, and rare earth elements, positive. The result will be a widespread understanding which are strategically important, are used in low- of the Bill virtually across the whole of Government. carbon technology, lasers, sub-conductors and many telecommunication applications. There are large quantities Kerry McCarthy: Certainly, we have moved on from of these metals, and it is right that the UK benefit from the stage when probably not a single Member knew its share of this groundbreaking new technology, which what was meant when we referred to hydrothermal I hope will benefit UK companies considerably. vents, polymetallic nodules, a cobalt-rich crust or any of On 11 March last year, the Prime Minister attended the other things we have been discussing, so we have an event at the ExCeL centre celebrating the granting of been significantly enlightened. Nevertheless, I hope that an exploration contract by the ISA to the UK. He the Lords will further scrutinise the environmental spoke of the benefits to the UK and of the supply chain provisions and perhaps pull some of this together and jobs likely to be created across the UK. As I mentioned, table some amendments. As I have said, however, I do he said that jobs could be created not just in Plymouth not intend to press the amendment to a vote. I beg to and Southampton but in Portsmouth, Bristol, Liverpool, ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Newcastle and Aberdeen, in sectors such as engineering Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. and the manufacture of high-tech remotely operated Third Reading underwater vehicles and ship stabilisation systems. He also said that that was estimated to be worth up to £40 billion to our economy over the next 30 years. At 11.23 am this point, I should correct some information that I gave Sheryll Murray: I beg to move, That the Bill be now in Committee: I said that it would be worth £30 billion read the Third time. by 2030. This is a good Bill and an important one for the UK The Prime Minister welcomed the identification of economy. It is also timely. As my hon. Friend the more than 80 United Kingdom companies with relevant Minister mentioned, in 2012 the UK sponsored its first expertise with which the UK contractor might be able licence application to the ISA for a UK company to to work. He also welcomed the industry workshop explore the deep sea for polymetallic nodules in the event that had been arranged to follow the ceremony of Pacific ocean. No one has learned more than I have the granting of the contract. about not only polymetallic nodules and cobalt-rich I thank the Government and individual Ministers for crusts but polymetallic vents and how some of them are supporting my Bill, and I thank experts in the Department dead, while others are smoking and look like they have who have taught me an awful lot about deep-sea mining— their own ecosystems—those are the ones we all want to about a world that lies at an even greater depth than protect. that in which my late husband used to tow his fishing The UK Government sponsored the last licence issued nets. I also thank the staff of the Public Bill Office for under the 1981 Act, but that Act is restricted to exploration assisting me again. This is the second time I have for polymetallic nodules; it does not allow exploration spoken on Third Reading of a private Member’s Bill: I for other things, which is why it is essential that it be did so last year as well. updated. As the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry I can assure Members that deep-sea mining is not McCarthy) mentioned, the Act predates the UN convention fracking, and does not involve any of the techniques on the law of the sea and the subsequent implementing that are associated with land-based mining. Specifically, agreement on part 11 of the convention on deep-sea deep-sea mining for polymetallic nodules involves no mining. In some small, niche areas, it is not entirely excavation of rock. It involves no use of explosives, and consistent with the convention, such as on the enforcement the nodules lie on the sea bed very much like the fish of decisions on sea bed disputes in the chamber of the that my husband used to harvest in his nets. The techniques international tribunal for the law of the sea, established that are used to mine the nodules are likely to involve under the convention. scooping or vacuuming them up. I do not pretend that It is important for the UK that we put our legislation the process will be environmentally neutral, but it is in good order, not least because we are strong proponents potentially less environmentally damaging than land-based of the convention. It is also important economically. As mining for the same minerals. many UK companies have expertise in the area, it could provide many benefits to the UK economy.I was delighted, Kerry McCarthy: I appreciate what the hon. Lady is therefore, that in Committee we extended the Bill to saying about the mining of polymetallic nodules—she cover Scotland, which also has a lot of expertise gained may well be about to deal with this point, which I through our exploration and exploitation of North sea believe she covered on Second Reading—but are not oil. It will also benefit my own part of the country in the the additional forms of exploration and exploitation south-west and south of England. Plymouth university allowed by the Bill potentially more environmentally 583 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 584

[Kerry McCarthy] is a great deal luckier than I have been, because in my nine years as a Member of Parliament, I have never damaging, given that they would involve a great deal been successful in the ballot for private Members’ Bills. more than just scooping nodules off the sea bed? We on the Labour Front Bench do not oppose the Bill, because we accept that deep sea mining is inevitable. Sheryll Murray: The hon. Lady is obviously psychic. We could not prevent or even delay it even if we wanted I was indeed about to deal with that point. to. We agree with the Government and the hon. Lady that it is important for the United Kingdom to be at the Mining for polymetallic sulphides and cobalt-rich forefront of the benefits to be had from the industry. crusts is a different matter, because it would involve the However, we want to be at the forefront not just because excavation of rocks. Mining for those minerals is even of the business opportunities afforded to the UK, but in further off than mining for polymetallic nodules, and in order to be able to determine standards for ourselves that context the principles that might apply to nodules rather than leaving it to others who may not consider would have to be considered again. I am determined, environmental protection as important as we do. and I know that the Government are determined, to I understand that the Government conceded privately ensure that the highest environmental standards will be that the Bill was not needed quite yet, and perhaps was applied to any exploitation of the minerals to which the not quite ready. A number of amendments in Committee hon. Lady has referred, and she has implied that she extended its provisions to Scotland because discussions shares that determination. I can inform her that had not yet taken place. We accept that this Bill is a international regulations governing the exploration of work in progress, but we think that it is, perhaps, a little those minerals have been agreed and were in place in bit rushed. It could perhaps have been dealt with as a advance of the issuing of any exploration contracts, Government Bill. We know the Government have supported and that various regulations have continued to be reviewed it from the outset and, given that we have very little and updated in the light of new developments and legislation going through Parliament at the moment, we considerations. had an ideal opportunity to discuss this as a Front-Bench I think that I speak for both this Government and Bill on the Floor of the House with several days of previous Governments in saying that the United Kingdom debate. prides itself on taking a close interest in these matters. We have observed that interest since the passing of the Sheryll Murray: May I clarify a point the hon. Lady 1981 Act. The Bill updates and modernises our existing has made? This Bill was going to be presented with or legislation following the ratification of various treaties. without Scotland measures. The amendments to include The United Kingdom was one of the first states to Scotland were introduced because that would be of sponsor a commercial company to undertake exploration, great benefit. It is my Bill and I am leading it through, and I trust that we shall be able to demonstrate the and it would have been presented without Scotland highest regard for international law by passing my Bill. measures if necessary. This is a good Bill, and it is important for the United Kingdom’s economy. It is all the better now following Kerry McCarthy: My point was not specifically about the passing of amendments to extend its provisions to the Scottish amendment. I was just using that as one Scotland. We engaged in some interesting and thought- example to make my point. The discussions with Scotland provoking discussions on Second Reading and in took place, or were finalised, after the Bill had been Committee, which were all the better for the points introduced. My understanding was that the Government raised by the hon. Member for Bristol East. There is had conceded that, and, because the ISA regulations clearly a common understanding of the fact that the are being debated next year and because of other exploitation of minerals in the deep sea is beyond any developments, the Bill might be slightly premature and state’s jurisdiction, and will inevitably take place in the a little bit rushed. It might have been given more future. It is, therefore, important for the United Kingdom consideration. We are where we are now, however, in to be at the heart of it, and to assist the development of terms of the parliamentary process. I hope the other place international regulations on deep-sea mining. I am glad has the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill in detail that the Bill appears to have general cross-party support, and perhaps make further amendments that would and I hope that that support will continue in the other improve it. place. I want to make one further point, which arose from the Committee discussions. It remained unclear how I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will be the finances of this will work and whether the UK able to deal with some of the technical aspects of the would in fact get a share of the profits. We have been Bill when he sums up the debate. told that this is very much about wanting the UK to benefit from being in the vanguard of the exploration. As has been mentioned, the Prime Minister has claimed 11.38 am that sea bed mining could be worth a staggering £40 billion Kerry McCarthy: I do not intend to speak for long. to the UK economy over the next 30 years, although I Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Member for have not seen any detailed analysis to support that South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray). It is always estimate. challenging to take a private Member’s Bill through all I appreciate that it is slightly jumping ahead of even its parliamentary stages, not least when the Bill contains where the ISA is currently at, because it has not drafted as much technical detail and covers as many new areas its regulations yet, but the issue of operator profits is as this one. However, I understood from the hon. Lady critical to this debate. I understand that the UK would that this was her second experience of the process. She benefit from corporation tax from those UK companies 585 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 586 or foreign companies, such as Lockheed Martin, with and uncontrolled manner, but that is not the way UK subsidiaries which get sponsored by the UK, although the modern world operates. It is right that in the 21st century once their profits have been understandably offset by before mankind goes digging around on the deep sea their exploratory costs and the costs of environmental bed causing who knows what sort of damage, a framework assessments, this amount could be quite limited. Certainly needs to be put in place to ensure that the exploration is in the case of UK subsidiaries, profits may go to the carried out in a carefully controlled manner and causes parent company, but unlike the tax regime on North sea as little damage as possible to the delicate ecosystems of oil revenues, the British Exchequer will not be plugged the deep sea bed. The plethora of international agreements into the profits, as the riches of the sea bed do not and our own domestic legislation seek to do that. belong to the UK; they belong to what is described as There is a danger, however, that in putting together the “common heritage of mankind” and those resources our own domestic legislation, we put in place licence do not belong to any one state, and no one state would conditions that companies see as too onerous, too have the right to claim ownership. complicated and too prescriptive, and consequently those Returning to my point about this Bill being slightly companies will not come to the UK to obtain their premature, I understand that there are discussions about licence approval; they will go to countries whose legislation a possible sovereign wealth fund, created from a fee that is, perhaps, less prescriptive than ours. could be charged on output. That could be used for the benefit of developing countries, but again discussions Sheryll Murray: My hon. Friend makes a good point. on this are at an early stage and we do not yet know Does he also agree that there is the potential of companies much about it. Again, I would have liked to have had moving their whole operations from the UK to other more clarity on this. More than 30 years have passed countries? since we last considered legislation on this topic with the 1981 Act. Given that it has taken us so long to get to Mr Nuttall: There is that risk if exploration companies the point where we are revisiting the matter, I would decide and form the opinion that our legislative framework have liked to have had more clarity on that issue and on is too onerous, prescriptive and complicated. I hope the environmental issues. We are where we are, however, that that is not the case. Certainly, it would not have my and I hope when the Bill gets to the Lords there can be support or the support of the Government or anyone in more clarity. We will support the Bill at this stage, the House if we felt that it was the case. There is a however, because we think that if deep sea mining is to delicate balance to be struck between trying to protect go ahead, there ought to be some sort of licensing the environment, maximising revenues and encouraging system in place. exploration for the benefit of mankind. They are all worthy things to do, and the Bill in its own way seeks to 11.44 am strike that careful balance. It is not an easy task to pull off, because if we go too far in one direction, we will Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It is a pleasure upset something else. There is a balance to be struck to follow the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry between mankind exploiting for the benefit of us all the McCarthy), who speaks from the Opposition Front resources that are in the deep sea in the other parts of Bench. She raised an interesting point about what would the world and protecting the environment that is down happen to the proceeds of mineral exploitation, and it there. I sincerely hope that this Bill will receive its Third deserves further consideration because the situation is Reading and that when it reaches the other place, it will not as straightforward as it was with North sea oil. We have a speedy passage. I wish it well. should examine exactly how this country will be able to benefit. Are we going to benefit directly, or jointly with other countries across the globe? 11.50 am I rise to support the Bill. I supported it on Second Mr Swire: I wish to put on record my thanks to my Reading, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) for piloting it Murray)—and not, as she was erroneously called, the through to Third Reading. To do that once is quite an hon. Member for North East Cornwall. I think North achievement, but to do it twice is particularly remarkable, Cornwall currently belongs to our coalition partners, and she should be congratulated on that, and on succeeding but I am sure that at the next general election she, like in the ballot twice. all of us in the south-west, will be doing everything to ensure that if she does not actually personally occupy Sheryll Murray: My hon. Friend may be interested to that part of Cornwall, there will be a member of the know that the reason I believe I was selected twice was same party who does. It is worth putting on the record because I used the same number twice: 336. Our first that it is the only seat in Cornwall—[Interruption.] fishing boat which we had brand new was FY 336. I do There is of course St Ives, which is extremely vulnerable not want anybody to steal that number in future ballots. to the Conservative surge.

Mr Nuttall: When I enter the ballot next year, if I get Sheryll Murray: My right hon. Friend will wish to into the Lobby before my hon. Friend, I will specifically know that, currently, our coalition partners hold St not choose 336, and I will urge all Members on both Ives, St Austell and Newquay, and North Cornwall. The sides of the House to try to avoid that number because Conservatives currently hold— it has obviously brought my hon. Friend great success. I know it is particularly poignant for her. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. The deep sea bed is one of the last unexplored areas The hon. Lady will resume her seat. Before the Minister of our world. In previous centuries mankind has gone continues, let me say that that has nothing to do with off exploring the world in pretty much an unregulated the Third Reading of this Bill. I know that it is Friday 587 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 588

[Madam Deputy Speaker] The addition of the words “Temporary Provisions” to that Act now seems ironic, as here we are 33 years and that the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady later and the Act is still in force. That, presumably, gives are looking forward to getting back to Cornwall, so if a new definition to the word “temporary”. Let us hope we could concentrate just on the Bill I would be a very that the same use of the word does not apply when we happy Deputy Speaker. talk about other parties “temporarily” holding on to seats that should be ours in the south-west—we do not envisage that going on for 33 years, Madam Deputy Mr Swire: Madam Deputy Speaker, I apologise. I Speaker. In recognition of the fact that deep sea mining share your agitation and excitement. Mine was only the is here to stay, we will remove those words from the excitement about May 2015 and what might happen short title. I imagine that that is probably the most thereafter. I will certainly not be tempted further down uncontentious thing I could say. that exciting route. Going back to the 1980s—and many of us would like I also thank other right hon. and hon. Members who to— have served their time on this Bill. The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) referred to the fact that Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. it has been handled by a number of different Ministers With respect, we do not need to go back to the 1980s. throughout its passage. That is a factor of life here We are on the Third Reading of a Bill that apparently sometimes, but, as I said to her, it does mean that there has support in the House and the debate is about the will be a wide understanding of the legislation. As it is provisions of the Bill. We have moved beyond needing new and quite complicated, the more people who context from the 1980s. There are a lot of Bills still to understand what it is about—the new technology and come this morning, so I would be grateful if the Minister the new exploration way below the sea—the better. referred to this Bill and its provisions.

It is of course entirely appropriate, as hon. Members Mr Swire: I am making as much haste as I possibly have said, that it should be a Back Bencher from a can, Madam Deputy Speaker, given the complexities of constituency in Cornwall, which is the second most some parts of the Bill. I was alluding back to the ’80s beautiful part of England after Devon, who has brought because of the commercial side of the issue. The commercial the Bill to the House. Cornwall not only has been companies that showed an interest in deep sea mining at involved in mining for generations—indeed, from before that time ceased to do so and although the idea lived Roman times—but is of course a great maritime county. on, it did not seem likely to become a reality any time My hon. Friend has always been a strong advocate of soon. her native county. Certainly, the fishing industry and her constituents are represented extremely well by her. I Mr Nuttall: Does the Minister know why, over the do not know anyone here who has a greater understanding intervening three decades, cross-party agreement has of the marine environment, from which she has derived arisen on these matters? If we look back to the debates both pleasure and tragedy. on the 1981 Act, we can see that it was pretty contentious, I am pleased that my hon. Friend has taken the Bill with Divisions on Second and Third Readings. forward with such aplomb. She has the distinction, as we have heard, of having been in charge of private Mr Swire: I think that is for two reasons. First, such Member’s Bills in two consecutive Sessions, which is ideas are becoming a reality, whereas in the 1980s they certainly an unusual achievement. As to her revealing were a distant prospect, and, secondly, our understanding the secret of how she was balloted for two Bills, she gave of the management of the environment, not least the the figure “336”, but said that she did not want people marine environment, has improved in leaps and bounds. to know that it was her secret number. I remind her Marine conservation zones and ecological balancing gently that recordings of this place are, as we speak, mean that we are way ahead of where we were then. No being broadcast to the four corners of the world. Who doubt you would rightly stop me going down memory knows, one day they might be broadcast to the sea bed lane to the 1980s, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I shall as well, so Captain Nemo can watch them. Quite a lot not continue along that line, but I hope that I have of people will remember 336 now and, with her indulgence, answered my hon. Friend’s questions as best I can. I shall be tempted to use some of those numbers when I The other part of the prediction also turned out to be next fill in my national lottery form as they have brought incorrect. We were able to achieve an internationally her such luck in the past. agreed regime for deep sea mining. However, the road Why is deep sea mining such a prominent issue just to achieving that was not straightforward. When the now? One or two comments have been made to the United Nations convention on the law of the sea was effect that the Bill is in some way premature and that the first adopted, the United Kingdom, in common with industry is in its infancy, and some have asked why we other industrialised countries, could not accept the are doing this now. It is worth recalling that in the 1980s provisions on deep sea mining. Those were included in there was a great deal of interest in deep sea mining, part XI of the convention and were not attractive to although I must confess that I was not aware of that commercial companies. The industrialised countries stood myself. There were expectations then of a major boom aloof from the convention, even though—apart from in deep sea mining and pessimism in many quarters part XI—the provisions were satisfactory. Indeed, they that an internationally agreed regime could not be were of great advantage to industrialised countries. achieved. It was against that background that the As the date for the convention’s coming into force Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Act 1981 was grew closer, the developing countries appreciated that a passed. convention with no participation from industrialised 589 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 590 countries would not be to their advantage. Negotiations to the international community at a level that would began to revise part XI or, in the diplomatic speak of deter the commercial companies. In other words, we the time, to set out how it would be implemented. I am must ensure that the international community secures a pleased to note that United Kingdom representatives reasonable rate of return without putting off the commercial played a prominent role in those negotiations. The companies without which there would be no mining at result was the so-called part XI agreement, which met all—ergo no revenue, no sovereign wealth fund and no the concerns of the industrialised countries and paved ability to share any profits with developing countries the way for the United Kingdom and other industrialised because, by definition, there would be no profits to countries to ratify the convention. share. Let me say now that the British Government consider I am perhaps getting a little ahead of myself because, that the convention, read with the part XI agreement, at present, there is no mining on the deep sea bed—that represents an excellent platform for the future development is a statement of fact. There have been only applications of deep sea mining. There is a need to ensure that the to explore for minerals. So far the International Seabed commercial terms encourage commercial companies, Authority has approved 19 such applications. Four more which are rightly hard-headed about the process, to were held over from its 2013 session, and at least three invest the large sums necessary to make deep sea mining new applications will be considered during the coming a reality. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North year. (Mr Nuttall) elegantly made the point, in a well-balanced The pace of applications has increased markedly in argument, that there is a balance to be struck. We want the last few years, as we might expect. There may well be to encourage deep sea mining and ensure that companies many reasons why, but there is no doubt that there are come here to register for the licences, but we do not two in particular: first, the development of technology, want to give them false expectations; they can spend much of it by British companies that have been working huge amounts of money before they mine anything. in the North sea for many years, as their unrivalled That is one reason why we were unable to accept the expertise in deep sea drilling has a knock-on effect for amendment. their understanding of deep sea mining; and, secondly, Ultimately, the deep sea is, as the convention says and the exponential economic growth in certain countries, as the hon. Member for Bristol East said, the common which I need not name, that has fuelled a significant heritage of mankind; that is the phrase that has been increase in their demand for metals and precious minerals. universally used. It is a ringing phrase, which means a It follows that deep sea mining for mineral deposits on great deal to many people around the world, particularly the sea bed is close to becoming technically and those who are nervous about the concept of touching economically viable. It is also a truism that, with an the sea bed. Ultimately, the benefits of deep sea mining increasing world population and finite resources, we should be shared with all members of the international will need to look to the oceans to provide additional community. That is recognised by the convention, and sources of support for our growing needs and demands. we are happy to endorse it. We need to be acutely aware of changes in our ability to produce energy and extract minerals. I refer the House The hon. Lady and my hon. Friend talked about to the need for a serious look, from an environmental profits and which country should benefit from any perspective, at the exploitation of shale gas, which has money made, which is perhaps slightly putting the cart had hugely beneficial effects, especially regarding the before the horse. Apart from the licence fees, the issue of cost of energy, in countries such as the United States what direct benefits will accrue to sponsoring states is that are well ahead of us on that practice. one of the many that will need to be considered during the development of the exploitation regulations. However, Perhaps I should explain to the House how the system the indirect benefits are likely to be substantial. Deep set out in the United Nations convention on the law of sea mining is a significant opportunity for UK industry, the sea works. Any application to explore for mineral especially in the light of the technological advances resources on the deep sea bed requires sponsorship by a made during the development of the oil and gas industry state party, which must be able to exercise sufficient in the North sea. We look forward to UK industry jurisdiction over the company it is sponsoring. It is making full use of that opportunity. worth saying that an advisory opinion in 2011 by the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea helpfully As for the International Seabed Authority, its council elucidated the duties cast on a sponsoring state by the will have to produce in due course rules about the convention, which include a requirement to adopt a “equitable sharing of financial and other economic benefits deriving precautionary approach to environmental issues. from activities in the Area”, Once a company has secured the sponsorship of a taking into particular consideration the interests and state, its application goes to the International Seabed needs of the developing states. In other words, the Authority. I am pleased to note that the authority’s ultimate intention, although we are probably a long way headquarters are in Kingston in Jamaica, a fellow away from this, is that the economic benefits of deep sea Commonwealth country. I am the Minister for the mining should, rightly, be shared with developing countries. Commonwealth, so I have a further excuse to go and Talk of the precise nature of how the money will be inspect the headquarters personally—if the cold weather held and disbursed, and of where sovereign wealth continues, I shall be going sooner rather than later. funds should be located and who should be involved The application will then be considered by the legal with them, is somewhat premature. and technical commission of the International Seabed Nevertheless, a balance is needed between the Authority, which is composed of experts from across requirements of the commercial companies and those the world and gives technical advice to the ISA’s council. of the beneficiaries in the international community as a Once approved by the commission, the application is whole. It would be counter-productive to fix payments forwarded to the council, which is composed of a 591 Deep Sea Mining Bill24 JANUARY 2014 Deep Sea Mining Bill 592

[Mr Swire] Seabed Authority—we are at the threshold of a new era of deep sea mining. This new frontier presents a valuable number of member states that have a particular interest opportunity to contribute to the prosperity of the British in deep sea mining. It is then for the council to approve people, of British companies, and of the United Kingdom the application. as a whole. The final step is that the contractor and the International Polymetallic nodules, as I am sure we are all now fully Seabed Authority enter into a contract that has a number aware, contain a higher concentration of valuable of standard provisions, including on the reports that the metals—up to 28% more, or 10 times the proportion contractor must make to the authority.Effective regulation usually found on land. Many of the metals contained in of the contractor will be secured through a combination these sea bed deposits are considered to be valuable of those provisions and the domestic law of the state “technology metals”, which are increasingly important sponsoring the application. The authority is at present in high-technology industries that benefit us all, including concerned only with the exploration of the deep sea electronics, clean technologies such as hybrid cars and bed. wind turbines, and the construction and aerospace industries. The strategic importance of this source of Mr Nuttall: The Minister may be aware that the minerals and metals should not be underestimated, not original convention on the law of the sea established a least as they contain trace metals such as rare earth body called the Enterprise, the purpose of which was to elements used in electronics, where it is important that serve as the authority’s mining operator. As far as I am land-based sources should face competition from potential aware, no steps are being taken to bring the Enterprise sources on the deep sea bed. Such an amount of previously into operation. Is he aware of any moves in that direction? untapped wealth can create vital jobs for the British Will the ISA take control of this itself? economy, not only in deep sea mining but in the supply chain supporting the industry, such as the engineers Mr Swire: I am not aware of any such rules, but I developing machines to harvest polymetallic nodules in commit to writing to my hon. Friend once I have an environmentally sensitive way. clarified that point. I am pleased that the ISA’s secretariat As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities is thinking about the regulations that will be necessary and Science has pointed out, this new industry plays to once exploitation begins. The United Kingdom delegation the UK’s strengths as a world leader in maritime engineering at the authority’s most recent session made clear the and innovation—which, incidentally, is of increasing importance that we attach to the development of those importance to us in the south-west, as my hon. Friend regulations, which will be an important step for the the Member for South East Cornwall will be well aware. authority and one in which the United Kingdom is As I mentioned, last year my right hon. Friend the determined to play its full part. There are important Prime Minister attended and spoke at an event to environmental issues to be resolved, but there is also a welcome the award of an exploration licence to British financial issue relating to the amount of any payment to company UK Seabed Resources, secured with the support the ISA, to which I have already alluded. of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the What of British involvement in deep sea mining, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. There which is really what the Bill is about? I am pleased to can be no greater demonstration of the Government’s say that the United Kingdom has now sponsored two commitment to this rapidly developing industry. applications. The first was approved by the ISA’s council Turning to the Bill, I would first like to emphasise— in 2012, and consequently a British company will cover an area of sea bed twice the size of Wales and 4,000 Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. metres deep. Disappointingly, the legal and technical The right hon. Gentleman has been speaking for some commission did not have time to consider the second considerable time now. We have covered everything. We application at its sessions last year, but we hope it will have covered the international authority, prime ministerial approve the application at its session beginning in February, speeches and agendas for Government Departments. I and that the council will approve the application when would now like him to focus specifically, and briefly, on it meets in July. his comments with regard to the Bill. Deep sea mining is a very exciting and pioneering industry, and the Government are pleased that the Mr Swire: Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker. If I United Kingdom is at the forefront of its development. may, I will just say why the Bill was needed, because Last year, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister there was some discussion as to whether it was appropriate spoke at an event in London to celebrate the signing of to have it now or whether it was premature. the contract between the United Kingdom’s sponsored contractor, UK Seabed Resources Ltd, and the ISA. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. With respect, the Our colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation right hon. Gentleman covered that right at the beginning and Skills organised an industry day at which more of his speech when he outlined the originating of the than 80 British companies participated. British companies 1981 Act, the fact that it was temporary, the fact that it have developed expertise and technology through their did not need to be temporary now, and the increased activities in the North sea, much of which is transferable interest in deep sea mining. I think we have covered why to deep sea mining. We hope that significant benefits to it is important; we have covered the money and the jobs. the British economy will be forthcoming over the next The Minister just needs to finish off on the Bill. 30 years. We have heard figures of anything up to £40 billion bandied around this morning. In the Mr Swire: Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. In that Government’s view, it is essential that the United Kingdom case, I will abbreviate my concluding remarks to address does not ignore these potential benefits. As I have a specific point that was raised about Scotland, on said—it is also the assessment of the International which I owe the House an answer. 593 Deep Sea Mining Bill 24 JANUARY 2014 594

I am pleased that we were able to reach agreement Armed Forces (Prevention of with the Scottish Government to extend the Bill to Discrimination) Bill Scotland. Amendments to that effect were moved in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for South Second Reading East Cornwall, supported by the Committee. This was a Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): On a point of order, very technical change that took some time to sort out, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want some guidance regarding but we got there. As with other British companies, the question of where the money will come from following Scottish companies are well placed to take advantage of the loss of the short-selling case at the European Court the opportunities presented by the development of deep of Justice. Will it come from estimates or otherwise? sea mining. Many of them have been active in the The Government are now obliged to pay all the costs North sea and can therefore adapt their expertise and and, despite predictions, the amount of money in question the technologies they have developed into the new and will be substantial. The Government’s case has been exciting world of deep sea mining. completely dismissed and they have had costs awarded We have enjoyed—at least, I have enjoyed—an informed against them. I just wonder where the money will come and productive debate that has demonstrated a real from. understanding of the economic and strategic importance of this Bill for the United Kingdom, balanced with the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): The hon. need to ensure safeguards for the environment. One of Gentleman poses his question as a point of order to the the important issues we have rightly discussed is the Chair and I suppose the direct answer is that I do not environment of the deep sea and the potential impact of know. Thank goodness it is not a matter for the Chair. mining on the species living on the sea bed. All of As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is not a point of order, us—Governments, parliamentarians and private companies but he is very thorough and assiduous in pursuing such alike—must be conscious of our shared responsibility matters. I say without fear of contradiction that he will for the stewardship of the deep sea bed. have other opportunities—nay, that he will create other I hope I have answered the majority of points raised. opportunities—to pursue his point, but that will not My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has shown happen during today’s sitting. how this issue is an example of the UK leading the I call Thomas Docherty to move the Second Reading way—both in legislation for the awarding of licences of his private Member’s Bill. and in the support we will give—in an exciting new industry. The industry is expected to be worth up to 12.24 pm £40 billion to the British economy over the next 30 Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): years. The United Kingdom is open for business, competing I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. in the global race. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak—I This Bill has been improved by amendments and has hope relatively briefly—about an important issue. As been met with general approval from Members throughout I am sure hon. Members are aware, this is my second the House. I am confident that when future generations attempt to change the law on the protection our society look back at what we have done, they will see that we offers to members of the armed services, including the have done everything we can to strike the right balance reserves and veterans, as well as their families. between protecting the environment and exploiting this I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, valuable resource in support of our country’s prosperity. the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) to her I thank all those who have taken an interest in and place. To begin on a consensual note, she has a very contributed to the excellent discussions as the Bill hard act to follow in her role, because her predecessor, has progressed. In particular, I reiterate my warmest the Minister for the Armed Forces, cares deeply about congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for armed forces and their welfare. I think that the whole South East Cornwall on introducing the Bill. I hope the House congratulates him on his new role. I hope that House will join me in supporting the Bill’s Third Reading the hon. Lady and I will continue the debate in the same and wishing it a speedy and successful passage through manner that he and I finished it at approximately this the other place. time last year. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): We are all delighted to 12.21 pm see the Minister in her place. I wonder whether the hon. Sheryll Murray: With the leave of the House, I just Gentleman is slightly surprised, as I am, to see her want to put on the record once again my thanks to the there, because from my reading of it, the Bill appears to Minister and the Department’s helpful officials. I am be more a criminal justice one than an armed forces also very grateful for the help I received from the Public one. What are his thoughts on which Minister should Bill Office and thank the hon. Member for Bristol East respond to this debate? (Kerry McCarthy) for her contribution. Thomas Docherty: I think that the hon. Gentleman is Question put and agreed to. on occasion slightly closer to the Government than I Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. am, so he is better placed to speculate about which Minister should reply. Perhaps the hon. Lady will pick up that point when she speaks. I hope that the House will unite on the issue. I very much welcome the constructive way in which hon. Members on both sides of the House have approached the subject not just today, but during the past 18 months. Of course there are times when we have different 595 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 596 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill [Thomas Docherty] carrying out their duties, but about those who are members of the armed forces. If he will indulge me, I perspectives on the future of our armed forces and on will explain that briefly as I do not wish to detain the how they should best be deployed and equipped. However, House. I hope that the whole House will agree on one point—that we owe a special duty to the brave men and women who Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I congratulate risk their lives defending our freedoms and our rights. I my hon. Friend on promoting the Bill, and I am sure the very much welcome the shadow Secretary of State, my whole House will support it. In a small number of cases hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), a member of the armed forces might go into a shop and to his place, which is a welcome sign of my party’s be refused access because they are wearing a uniform, commitment on this important issue. I think that the which I think is outrageous. It is only a few years since whole House recognises that we owe a very special debt the armed forces have started to wear a uniform again. I to those who risk their lives abroad to defend our remember when they were encouraged not to wear their freedoms in ensuring that they receive, as they deserve, uniforms in Northern Ireland, and it is welcome for the the full shield of Government protection when they point to be clarified. People should not verbally abuse return home. our armed forces, or have the right to refuse them entry. I will not repeat what I said last year, but I want to talk briefly about the first two clauses. Clause 1, which Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, would amend the Criminal Justice Act 2003—the hon. and the House will want to pay tribute to his work Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) has already mentioned championing the armed forces in Scotland. He served criminal justice—simply says that an assault on a member on the Defence Committee for a number of years, and of the armed forces or their family that is motivated by has taken a keen interest in his local barracks at Glencorse. their service to our country should be treated as an It might help if I give a couple of examples of what aggravated offence. we are talking about. The House will recall that the noble Lord Ashcroft, who I suspect is in the other place—I understand that a Philip Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? minor issue is being considered at that end of the Building—carried out a survey, with the support of the Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman has tempted Ministry of Defence, of some 9,000 serving personnel me, so I will let him intervene once more. across the three armed forces in 2012. Some quite astonishing and, dare I say, horrific figures came out of Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman was right about that survey. About 5% of members of our armed forces what he said earlier, and the qualification he referred reported that they or their family had suffered physical to—which I mistook—is someone being a member of or attempted physical assault during the previous five the armed forces. Nobody disagrees with any of that years, while 18% or 19% of them reported that they had sentiment, but I wonder where the Bill refers specifically been the victim of verbal abuse in that period. I am sure to the fact that the abuse is happening because someone we can all think of the type of abuse that, regrettably, is is a member of the armed forces. I cannot see that in the hurled by a mindless minority at members of our armed Bill. I understand that that is its purpose, but I cannot forces, and I will cite one example that my hon. Friend see where it states that specifically. the Member for Gedling might also refer to. A few years ago the Royal Anglian regiment came Thomas Docherty: If the hon. Gentleman looks, for back, I think in 2010, for its homecoming parade, and example, at clause 1(a), (b), (c) and indeed (d), “service an extremist organisation called Muslims Against Crusades person” is mentioned repeatedly. I want to make a bit of organised an attack on that parade, which I think progress because otherwise there is a danger that we crossed the line between free speech and intimidation. could be perceived as trying to slow the progress of this The survey by Lord Ashcroft also reported that almost important Bill. one in five members of the armed forces have been We all saw with horror the events that took place in refused service in shops, pubs and clubs for being summer last year in Woolwich, and I am sure the whole members of the armed forces, and clause 2 of the Bill House was in a state of revulsion at what happened. covers that issue. That is an extreme example, but later in the summer there was a lot of media interest in the Bill, and the Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman said earlier, if I BBC made a series of case studies as part of a day heard him correctly, that he was trying to extend the law covering the issue of discrimination against the armed to cover somebody who was, or was presumed to be, a forces. The number of anecdotal examples that service service person in the course of their duties—or along personnel had suffered—although not on that same those lines. I wonder where the Bill refers to that, extreme level—was astonishing. because it states simply “the victim being, or being presumed to be, a service person,” Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): There without any qualification. He seemed to be adding a seems to be a potential distinction between what happened qualification to his remarks that I cannot see in the Bill, in Woolwich, which was clearly an act of murder and and I wonder whether he can clarify that. terrorism that was prosecuted under existing legislation, and discrimination legislation. It seems slightly dangerous Thomas Docherty: I expect the hon. Gentleman was to muddle criminal justice legislation and discrimination wistfully thinking about all the times he has supported legislation. Will the hon. Gentleman please clarify what his Government, and he therefore misheard what I said the link is between Woolwich and the legislation he is earlier on. This measure is not about people who are proposing? 597 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 598 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill Thomas Docherty: If the hon. Gentleman shows a I do not wish to try to take the Minister’s argument little forbearance, he will see where I am going with the apart just yet—I will hear what she has to say first—but argument. I suspect that on this occasion the Ministry of Defence, A number of examples were cited. In the interests of building on her point, will say that it is very difficult to making progress today and not getting bogged down, I look into somebody’s mind. With the greatest respect to will not talk about them all, but I want to mention one her, this is an amendment to an existing criminal justice specific case. A young soldier from Bolton—coincidentally, Act. Actually, the hon. Member for Shipley makes a he was also called Lee—phoned in to a Radio 5 Live valid point about this being a criminal justice matter. If programme on the morning of the BBC’s day of coverage the Minister wishes to go to the Library and get out the on the issue. He said that he had returned from a tour in Hansard report from 2003, she will see that the debate Afghanistan for a couple of weeks of well-deserved rest was had then about how in principle to go about and recuperation and to see his family. It was the first determining the motivation. The key point is that the time in three months that he had been home from Bill is a simple amendment of that existing principle. deployment. He got off the train at Bolton quite late on The Minister—and I forgive her for being a lawyer, as I the Saturday evening. He was in his uniform and had am sure the whole House does—knows that it is the job his bags with him. He was set upon by four or five of lawyers to prosecute and make their case. It will be a drunken yobs. When the police caught them, the reason matter for the Crown Prosecution Service to set out why they gave for the assault was that they wanted to prove the motivating factor was the fact that the victim was in “how hard they were”. Those five brave yobs had attacked uniform rather than a general disagreement or some one soldier going about his business, having returned other factor. from service. I hope that answers, to an extent, the question the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Is (Rory Stewart) asked. While we see the attack in Woolwich the hon. Gentleman saying that even if questioning as the most extreme and horrific example, there are motivation is bad criminal justice law in the first place, examples reported every month. there would be no harm in extending the provision to the armed forces? If the question of motivation applies The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence in other areas, it is only reasonable to extend it to this (Anna Soubry) indicated dissent. category. The previous debate covered motivation and that is not at issue today. What is at issue is the category Thomas Docherty: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of people included. of State shakes her head. I would be grateful if, when she replies, she sets out why she so adamantly opposes Thomas Docherty: I am incredibly grateful to the providing support to members of our armed forces and hon. Gentleman because he has, as ever, made my protecting them from that kind of attack. argument more successfully. The onus is now on the Ministry of Defence. I am certain that the Minister Anna Soubry: I was not shaking my head because of does not dispute the validity of the Criminal Justice any desire not to give our armed services personnel all Act 2003, and I am sure that she and her Department the support and protection they require; I was shaking are full supporters of the principles it contains. The my head because four or five yobs setting upon a soldier only issue before us today, therefore, is whether the in order to prove, in the hon. Gentleman’s words, how protection it gives to specific other groups should be hard they are is certainly not in the same category as the extended to members of the armed forces. appalling murder of Drummer Rigby, or indeed in the same category as discrimination. I know that I am a lawyer, but those are different jurisprudential matters Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It is almost a and there is a real danger, especially with this type of year since the Second Reading of a similar Bill in the legislation, of confusing the issues. I will explain that previous Session. Does the hon. Gentleman have any later in my speech, but I wanted to set the record specific examples of discrimination against a member straight that I was not shaking my head for the reason of our armed forces, in his constituency or that have that was alleged, but because I disagree that we can been brought to his attention by others, that have liken four yobs trying to show how hard they are and happened in the intervening year? discrimination against armed forces personnel. Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman leads me on Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the Minister for to the point that I was about to make. I have mentioned that attempt to clarify her position. I hope that she will physical assault already, but clause 2 would extend the have another stab at it later on. prohibition on discrimination to what are colloquially The key point is that such attacks are too common, called “trade and sales” issues. For example, a pub, and that is unacceptable to this House and to the restaurant or shop cannot refuse to serve a member of country, as I know from the feedback I have had not the armed forces simply because they are a member of only from my constituents, but from the number of the armed forces. Again, this is not about whether it is people who have contacted me, particularly since the possible for lawyers to make a case on motivation, summer. Indeed, there are people in the House service because the clause would amend an existing Act, on who have told me only this week how delighted they are which very smart lawyers have already built cases to see the Bill coming forward. It is about sending a successfully. This is a debate about whether the principle clear signal that we stand with those who risk their lives should be extended. for our country to protect our freedoms and that it is The work by Lord Ashcroft, carried out with Ministry unacceptable to attack, physically or verbally, a member of Defence support, reported the problem, but I also of the armed forces because of that service. have two specific examples that happened relatively 599 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 600 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill [Thomas Docherty] Anna Soubry: I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the conversation recently. The first was in Edinburgh, so not far from my between me and my hon. Friend the Member for constituency. The warship HMS Edinburgh was in dock Beckenham (Bob Stewart) had nothing to do with the in Leith to receive the freedom of the city in a civic hon. Gentleman’s speech. ceremony at the city chambers. At the end of the ceremony, a group of crew members, in their dress Thomas Docherty: I am most grateful. uniforms, visited a pub called the Ensign Ewart. I do Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. not know whether you are familiar with that pub from I am grateful to the Minister for being so frank, but it is your visits to Edinburgh, Madam Deputy Speaker— not quite in order to have conversations not pertaining [Interruption.] I can assure the House that it is a to the speech by the Member who has the Floor, although delightful watering hole and the type of place that we understand that the hon. Member for Beckenham Madam Deputy Speaker might visit during her frequent (Bob Stewart) is good at making the House laugh from visits to Scotland. time to time. The group of young sailors, in their dress uniforms, visited that pub in the middle of the day having just Thomas Docherty: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. received the freedom of the city. The irony that the pub is named after one of the heroes of the Napoleonic Rory Stewart rose— conflicts is not lost on me, and I am sure that the House Thomas Docherty: I will give way one last time, but can guess what happened next: the landlord refused to then I want to wrap this us, because this is an important serve them because they were members of the Royal debate and I do not want it to appear that there is Navy. The city council and most people in Edinburgh filibustering by either side. were indignant. The Edinburgh Evening News, the local daily newspaper, ran a huge campaign saying it was Rory Stewart: Given that this example from Edinburgh absolutely ridiculous and an embarrassment to Scottish is clearly absolutely central to the hon. Gentleman’s hospitality, which I know the hon. Member for North argument, it would be good, in terms of the policy East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) enjoyed a few years implications and what the House can do to support the ago in central Fife. That is one good example of the armed forces, to try and understand what exactly is ridiculousness of the situation. going on and to get a bit deeper into this question. On the surface, it looks a bit bizarre. Here is a publican Rory Stewart rose— clearly keen to make some money and who normally would take people in. What exactly is the nature of the Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman appears agitated. prejudice? He said they were in uniform, but can we get I think he is trying to get my attention. Of course, I will a bit deeper into this? What is it that makes a publican give way. turn down sober people in uniform in the middle of the Rory Stewart: What grounds did the publican give for day? Unless we understand that, it will be difficult to this act of discrimination? come up with a policy solution. Thomas Docherty: I shall explain very clearly. The Thomas Docherty: That is exactly the point I am publican’s argument is that these personnel will cause coming to. The landlord said that the sailors were in trouble, which is an absurd argument to put forward. I uniform and therefore likely to cause trouble. I think am sure that the Minister and I will agree that there is the House will agree that that is absolutely absurd. Our no reason to expect that men and women who are young men and women serving in the Royal Navy, proud to be wearing their uniform at a civic event will wearing dress uniform, in the middle of the day, when cause trouble. The Bill is narrowly drawn—I am grateful entirely sober, are not likely to cause trouble. The House to the redoubtable Kate Emms for her assistance, as will think that an absurd and ludicrous argument, and it ever, in drafting it—and very clear: it would amend goes to some of the prejudices regrettably still facing existing legislation. Under the Equality Act 2010, a members of our armed forces. publican can still turn down somebody if they are On this point, the previous Chief of the Defence drunk or if they have a genuine reason to believe they Staff, Sir David Richards, made some valid points a are likely to cause disruption. I stress, again, that this is couple of years ago. He said that our country was not a debate about whether there should be exemptions undergoing a cultural change and that the perception of under the 2010 Act, but whether those exemptions our armed forces was changing. I am sure that a few should be extended to cover members of the armed years ago there was the perception that groups of young forces. squaddies or officers were likely to cause trouble. The service chiefs and the chain of command have worked Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I thank my friend—he phenomenally hard— [Laughter.] The Minister seems is my friend—for giving way. I support him totally. to be chuntering something about this being ridiculous. When soldiers, sailors or airmen go out in uniform, If she wants to explain what she thinks is ridiculous particularly dress uniform, they are under a remit to about the debate, I would be happy to give way. I think behave in an exemplary way. By wearing the uniform, this has been a good and thoughtful debate and I regret those boys and girls go out knowing that they are that she is not approaching it in the manner— representing their unit, and there is no way, normally, that they would get drunk. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Anna Soubry): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman—who, of course, gave his service to the country for 30 or 40 years Thomas Docherty: Of course I will. —has made a compelling point, on which I hope the 601 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 602 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill House will reflect. As a member of the Defence Committee, by Lord Ashcroft—it is not for me to question the he has taken a close interest in this issue, and has veracity of Lord Ashcroft’s figures—are not the whole championed me and supported my aims. He is entirely picture, but no evidence is presented to show that those right: as the Minister would surely agree, it is ridiculous figures are wrong. There are no facts to back up the for a publican to say, “These young men and women in MOD’s assertions. dress uniform are going to cause trouble.” As I have To finish on a consensual note, let me say that I do said, the Bill amends an existing Act. Safeguards already take the Minister at her word. I accept that she believes exist to enable a shop owner, publican or restaurateur to that that protection is sufficient, and I will take up her turn down someone’s custom if there is a genuine fear generous offer and meet her to discuss how to take this of trouble. All that we seek to do is extend the umbrella matter forward, but, 12 months on, this issue continues of protection to members of the armed forces. to be a problem. This is not a debate about how one measures the motivation. That is covered by the two Mr Nuttall: When, nearly a year ago, the hon. Gentleman Acts in 2003 and 2010. This is not about “Would the withdrew exactly the same Bill, he said that he looked Crown Prosecution Service have an ability to demonstrate forward to working with my right hon. Friend the this in the courts?” That is already covered in the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), the debates that took place a decade or so ago. This is a present Minister for the Armed Forces, who responded debate about whether we in this House believe that to that debate. Will he tell us what negotiations or members of our armed forces and their families who discussions have taken place since then? risk their lives to protect our freedoms deserve to be given the greatest level of protection. Thomas Docherty: I was in two minds about whether I commend this Bill to the House, and I look forward to mention this, and it is with some regret that I do so to it receiving a speedy passage. now. If I were being charitable to the Department, I would say that it had not entirely fulfilled the expectations that were raised at approximately this time last year. 12.56 pm The hon. Gentleman was present at the time, and made Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I a thoughtful contribution to the debate. congratulate the hon. Member for Dunfermline and The Minister and his officials undertook to look into West Fife (Thomas Docherty) on introducing a Bill that the issue, and to include their conclusions in the 2013 obviously reflects a deep intuition, a deep sense of Armed Forces Covenant annual report. Earlier this respect for the military, and a deep desire to show the year, during defence questions, I asked whether a Minister public admiration for the military for the service they would meet me, but although I was given assurances, provide and the sacrifices they make. So I begin by and although I chased the matter up several times, no acknowledging that the Bill has been introduced with such meeting, either with a Minister or with officials, the best of intentions and to reflect that public respect. was forthcoming. I find that very disappointing. Moreover, I also want to say that discrimination legislation can, the 2013 report—which is, of course, available in the in the right place and at the right time, make a very Vote Office—makes no mention of any study building useful contribution to society. It can be difficult, is often on the work of Lord Ashcroft. controversial, and has been a huge problem over the last 50 or 60 years, but, in the right place and at the right Anna Soubry: I should be more than happy to meet time, discrimination legislation can be hugely important. the hon. Gentleman to discuss the matter in greater However, what I hope briefly to say is that unfortunately detail. However, page 54 of the report deals with precisely I do not believe, notwithstanding the hon. Gentleman’s this issue of discrimination against members of the good intentions and the importance of showing respect armed forces. for the military, that discrimination legislation is the correct way of addressing this problem. Thomas Docherty: It is true that there is a passing reference to Lord Ashcroft on page 54, but, with the There are three reasons why: the first is to do with the greatest respect, it does not meet my expectation that inherent nature of discrimination legislation; the second Ministers would look into how widespread the practice is to do with the other forms of policy measures we can was, although a clear undertaking to that effect was take to support the military and veterans without having given last year. It merely restates the officials’ existing to invoke discrimination legislation; and the third is the position. There is no examination of how often more complex and deeper issue of the kinds of values discrimination takes place, how widespread it is, or and attitudes that would be encouraged by introducing what types of discrimination are involved. Let me read discrimination legislation, in particular the fact that it the offending two sentences to the House: would begin to portray soldiers and veterans in the guise of victims, which would be very dangerous for our “Our view is that, in the last year or so, the extent of public public policy relationship with the military in general. knowledge and sympathy for the Armed Forces has continued to grow—aided by the Community Covenant and the new Corporate There are four major issues around discrimination Covenant. We therefore continue to believe that education, rather legislation that need to be addressed, notwithstanding than legislation, is the key to eradicating the kind of behaviour the fact that discrimination legislation has been useful. that we all abhor.” The first of them is the complexity of discrimination That is all motherhood and apple pie, but it does not legislation. It is extremely difficult and complex to meet the undertaking that was given last year to look at operate. We get in trouble with it all the time in the the Ashcroft report in detail and to follow it up. There is courts on any number of issues. The second is the no mention of HMS Edinburgh, and no mention of any problem of futility: the number of cases in which of the other instances of which we have heard from all discrimination legislation actually turns out to be futile over the country. The MOD claims that the figures cited because it does not address the problem concerned. 603 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 604 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill [Rory Stewart] ambit has been treated unlike someone else would have been treated in—and this is the fourth condition—an The third is the problem of perversity: the way in which analogous situation and, fifthly, that that is unjustified. discrimination legislation of the wrong sort can in fact We can all see again and again—we only have to open have a negative impact on a whole series of elements in a copy of any newspaper—that hard cases and bad law society. The fourth is what I call the problem of jeopardy: have led to a situation in which discrimination legislation the way in which discrimination legislation can in fact appears to go in the face of what has been normal rebound on the very group it is attempting to protect practice. Hard cases will emerge again and again, and and actually increase prejudice. we have seen it. We can see it in things that everybody This is not an argument against discrimination legislation will have discussed in this House over the years. I am in general. It is simply an argument that it should be talking about, for example, whether or not it is possible done only in the most specialised and careful circumstances. for a Church of England school or a Jewish school to Discrimination legislation in general, although controversial, discriminate on the basis of religion; for a single-sex has been hugely successful. Probably one of the greatest school to discriminate on the basis of gender; or for the contributions our society has made—one of the things I police or the immigration authorities to discriminate on hope we will be remembered for in the future—is the the basis of Roma ethnicity—that was a Supreme Court introduction of legislation protecting people on the judgment. If we were to define the armed forces as one grounds of race, gender, disability and age. We must of those categories, a whole series of cases would begin remember that that is not a small thing. There was a to emerge in case law in which anybody who served in time in this country when it was legal for a landlady of a the armed forces or was a veteran of the armed forces bed and breakfast to put up a sign saying, “No blacks would begin to be able to claim discrimination in everything admitted”; when women in this country could be paid from education through to employment. Importantly, it three-quarters of the amount that men were paid; and would not be possible simply to limit discrimination when so-called public bars could exclude people on the legislation—we would be struck down in Strasbourg—to basis of their gender or race and were not open to them. admission to a public house. As Lord Hoffmann said in justifying discrimination Thomas Docherty: I am very clear that the legislation legislation, the basic idea that similar cases should be applies not just to public houses, but to any commercially treated in a similar fashion and that different cases procured service. The hon. Gentleman seems to suggest should be treated differently is a basic axiom of rationality. that the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and the Equality Act It is based on two fundamental principles: the fundamental 2010 are flawed. Will he be clear that what he is referring principle of equality, which is the idea that people to is not the principle of discrimination law? As I should be treated as ends and not means to ends; and understand it, his problem is that he does not think that the fundamental principle of rationality, which is that those laws should be extended to our armed forces. Is only relevant characteristics should decide how somebody that his central argument? is treated. However, the problem is that although we have made huge progress in those areas, legislation is a Rory Stewart: My central argument is that a general last resort. It is an incredibly complex and frequently protection exists for all citizens. The general principle counter-productive form of law to introduce, so much that we do not create special categories of citizens is so that it should be limited to cases only where there is central to our notion of equality. We should only create such a deep-seated prejudice extended over so many special categories of citizens in the most extreme hard centuries that there is no alternative measure open to us. cases. My argument, to get to the nub of it, is that there If we were to introduce such legislation in relation to have been over the centuries such extreme examples of the armed forces, we would have to go through a legal sexism, chauvinism and discrimination on the basis of nightmare over the succeeding decades in trying to disability that despite the general principle of equality, work our way through such cases. and despite our general objection to special treatment, there are certain categories where that difficult decision Broadly speaking, discrimination legislation—I am has been correctly made, landing us in a nightmare of not a lawyer—is based on five grounds. We need to complexity but done for the public good. Including an determine the ambit of the legislation; the prescribed individual’s occupation among the prescribed grounds ground of the legislation; that unequal treatment has for discrimination would be a very serious error and taken place; an analogous situation; and exactly what would open the floodgates to huge complexity. the justification is. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife will point out that, in relation to the Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman must have armed forces, at least three of those measures are relatively heard my opening remarks, in which I said that the straightforward, including the ambit of the definition in statistics from the noble Lord Ashcroft, produced with the case of the armed forces. In other words, is this the support of the Ministry of Defence in the largest discrimination in employment or in private life? The ever study of attitudes to and within the three services, prescribed grounds in this case could be, although this show that one in five members of the armed forces has will be more difficult to define, in relation to gender or been refused service and one in four has been the victim disability, and they involve a relatively straightforward of physical or verbal assault. If the hon. Gentleman can determination of what somebody’s gender is or what point out to me another example of a type of employment their ethnic background is. He could argue that it where that goes on, I want to hear it. Otherwise, I fear should be reasonably straightforward to determine whether that he is not making a coherent argument. or not someone is a member of the armed forces or has served in the armed forces. Unequal treatment requires Rory Stewart: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, the definition that this individual who comes from these that is not exactly the point I am making. I do not deny particular prescribed grounds and operates in this particular that members of the armed forces can be treated unfairly, 605 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 606 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill nor do I deny that because they are going somewhere in hand, the hon. Gentleman is presenting the pub as a uniform they are likely to be identified as a special wonderful pub that has absolutely no problems at all; category and treated unfairly as such. My argument is on the other, we have the slightly imponderable question based not on the notion that there are no examples of of why the publican, who presumably wishes to generate unfair treatment but on the general assumption that income from his pub, did not allow these people in. It expanding discrimination legislation is a very dangerous seems that there is an issue that the hon. Gentleman thing for this House to do. It is not simply that as a needs to address about the pub. Conservative I feel that we already produce too much However, that is not my point. My point is a bigger legislation and that we feel the effects of excessive one about the kinds of things for which we introduce legislation, but that extending discrimination legislation, discrimination legislation. Hard cases make bad law. It in particular, should be done only in the most extreme would be unfortunate if what happened in a single pub situations. in Edinburgh, or indeed many scores of times up and Bob Stewart: On that point, and in support of the down this country, were to lead to the introduction of hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas something almost unprecedented: to add, suddenly and Docherty), did the landlord in this particular case act out of nowhere, an entirely new category based illegally by discriminating against a group of people on occupation to the broad categories of inherited who went in to his pub to have a drink? Did he break characteristics—gender, race, sexuality, age and disability. the law by saying no? That could be the beginning of something that all of us in the House would regret. Rory Stewart: A whole body of case law exists exactly Why do I feel that? It is not only because of the to resolve such issues of discrimination of any sort that complexity of the legislation that would be introduced, we have not to date felt a need to resolve. Discrimination which I have touched on, but because of three additional can already happen in the United Kingdom against points: futility in legislation; jeopardy in legislation; people who are not in protected categories. It is possible, and counter-productive legislation. for example, to take legal redress as a white male former member of the armed forces. My hon. Friend himself When I talk about futility in legislation, particularly would be able to seek legal redress in many situations in in relation to discrimination, I mean whether introducing which he felt that he had been unfairly treated. The this form of discrimination legislation would address particular question of the rights of publicans to admit the basic problem. Criticisms have been made of all or not admit people into their establishments is another discrimination legislation during the last 40 years; it has area of case law. frequently been said that the law may not be the best This is a question for the Edinburgh courts; it is not way to address deep-seated cultural prejudices or inherited for me to determine what the publican did. My sense, as attitudes. regards the publican’s right to do what he did, is that in I will be concrete. Addressing discrimination against this case the publican’s argument was not the argument the armed forces should be attempted in the first place that the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife through policy, by ensuring that the correct social attitudes has suggested; the publican’s argument was not that he are promoted in schools and through how Government believed that the people in uniform were going to cause and public policy makers talk about the armed forces, trouble, but that he had had a lot of experience of the so that we address exactly what the prejudices are. If other people in the pub causing trouble and attacking there is an existing prejudice that members of the people in uniform when they came in. In other words, armed forces have certain characteristics, it is incumbent he believed that it was an exacerbating factor and he on the many armed forces charities—wealthy and well- was in no way criticising the people in uniform. He was supported charities, which enjoy a huge groundswell of trying to protect against violence breaking out in his positive public opinion—and the Ministry of Defence, pub on the basis of experience of that happening in the as well as the regimental associations, to try to establish past. Unless the hon. Gentleman has a deep understanding what those prejudices are and to address them. of exactly how much violence has happened in that pub and why the publican, who would have an interest in My second point is about jeopardy. Introducing new trying to generate income from alcohol sales, excluded discrimination legislation imposes a huge element of those people, it would be difficult to judge in this case. cost. That cost was justified in relation to gender, race, disability, sexuality and age. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman Thomas Docherty: I lived in Edinburgh for years, and would like to consider the costs of legislation to deal I know this pub particularly well. I am not sure that the with employment discrimination. He would need to hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber for the start of my reflect on the exact implications for a small or medium-sized speech because, as I said, I know this pub; it is a nice business that employed somebody from the armed services, pub in a nice area. It is not a rough pub, but a normal and for the human resources department of a company pub. The hon. Gentleman must have missed the start of that did the same. my speech because the point he is making has been The hon. Gentleman will find—this is central to my covered. argument—that in Strasbourg and at the Supreme Court the attempt to create a special category of occupation Rory Stewart: The hon. Gentleman is very kind to that is determined as an object of discrimination in suggest that I missed the start of his speech; I did not. I relation to, for example, public houses and bed and was here for the entirety of his eloquent speech. breakfasts, cannot stop there. It will be extended To be honest, I do not think we should get dragged immediately to employment law. down into discussing this particular pub; this issue is a bit of a rabbit hole, and I would like to close it down. But there still seems to be a bit of an issue. On the one Thomas Docherty indicated dissent. 607 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 608 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill Rory Stewart: If the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene an extremely difficult and clumsy form of law that has on that point, I would like to hear why he believes that produced a whole series of consequences—often futile such legislation would not eventually be extended to or perverse, and even counter-productive, in that prejudice employment law, once the basic philosophical argument increased against the group that we were attempting to on discrimination had been accepted. protect.

Thomas Docherty: I know, Madam Deputy Speaker, Thomas Docherty: I promise that this will be my last that you will shortly rule that there is a danger that the intervention on the hon. Gentleman. He talks about hon. Gentleman and I are going out of order. However, gender, but there are still men-only golf clubs today—I I will respond specifically to his last point—we covered know that the Minister and I are both appalled by that issue in the Defence Reform Bill in this Session, that—despite years of anti-discrimination legislation and amendments about it were rejected. We cannot covering one or both genders. His argument breaks have similar amendments in the same Session. Also, the down because some extensions of protection have not one thing does not logically follow the other in the way led to intended or unintended consequences. that he suggested. Having said that, I know that if I continue to debate Rory Stewart: The hon. Gentleman is producing an this issue, Madam Deputy Speaker, you will rule both argument against his Bill because he seems to be saying the hon. Gentleman and I out of order very soon. that there are examples of legislation that was futile. Does not his example of the golf club suggest that, Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): On the despite the existence of legislation, there was a minimal contrary, both hon. Gentlemen are in order as they deal impact on the group to be protected? with this narrow Bill in, if I may say so, an intellectual way that the House appreciates. Thomas Docherty: There is a danger that we will run out of time, but the Equality Act 2010 was not designed to apply to golf clubs, and there has been no successful Rory Stewart: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. challenge in the European Court to get it extended to Let me expand on this a little for the hon. Gentleman. golf clubs. The Scottish Parliament is working on measures This is a question of proscribed grounds for discrimination, to deal with assaults on emergency workers, but that which is one of the five aspects of discrimination legislation will not roll on to cover trade and sales. One cannot say that I set out. One needs to ask what the proscribed that these things will automatically go forward. I am ground for discrimination is, and the Bill would add to sure that clever lawyers such as the Minister could find gender, sexuality and disability the ground of occupation creative ways of making their case about that, but so far in the military. If the law accepts philosophically that the courts have not extended such legislation. there is an additional category in the proscribed grounds for discrimination, it would not be possible—no judge Rory Stewart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. would consider this possible—to limit that simply to the May I perhaps make a little progress? Some of what the provision of hospitality and not extend it to employment hon. Gentleman wishes to achieve could be achieved law, because the precedent of a proscribed ground of without discrimination legislation. Without getting into occupation would have been created. all the arguments on the appropriate ambit of legislation, unequal treatment, analogous circumstances, justification Thomas Docherty: As I said, many of these arguments and prescribed categories, many other things could be were covered during our consideration of the Defence done to achieve the same objectives. Importantly for the Reform Bill, when I think that the Minister was a House, there is a fundamental distinction between what member of the Defence team. That Bill includes measures can be addressed through discrimination law and what on employment discrimination, but things have not can be addressed through sensitivity to context and gone the other way. The Ministry of Defence is confident culture. Saying that we do not wish to create a special that the Bill’s measures on anti-reservist discrimination category of soldiers or veterans who are treated differently will not roll on in the way the hon. Gentleman describes. from other citizens is not the same as saying that the Additionally, the Scottish Parliament is working on House cannot come up with any policies that might measures regarding the assault of NHS employees, but provide more support for soldiers and veterans, that it is confident that they will not fall foul of the Strasbourg acknowledge the obligations that we owe them and the Court. The hon. Gentleman’s argument does not hold unique service they have performed, and that find concrete up because there is precedent in the United Kingdom of ways to help them. cases on which the European Court has not required I shall give an example that might interest the hon. that a provision covers everything. Gentleman. Without introducing discrimination legislation, it is possible—the hon. Member for Barnsley Central Rory Stewart: With respect, I disagree with the hon. (Dan Jarvis), the shadow justice spokesman, has proposed Gentleman. We might not have time to explore this this—to consider ways of working with military personnel fully, but I shall try to make myself clearer. and veterans in the criminal justice system without There is a basic problem in making a new extension defining a proscribed category of discrimination. It might to discrimination legislation. All the grounds in that involve, for example, ensuring that a police officer is legislation are extremely complex. It has been difficult aware that someone they have arrested has served in the to operate the legislation over the past 50 years, but armed forces, not so that the police officer could give doing so has been absolutely necessary because of centuries them lax or special treatment, or because they should of prejudice and abuse against women and racial groups. somehow be immune from prosecution, but because The sort of stuff that happened was so horrifying that awareness of their context or background could lead to the House felt that it had no alternative but to introduce more constructive engagement between them and the 609 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 610 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill police officer. The same could be true in the prison Victorian era when soldiers were treated with contempt; system, with military mentors working with prisoners instead, the armed forces, as shown in every opinion with a military background, so that they may be able to poll, now constitute one of the single most respected develop a more constructive rehabilitation programme. and admired ingredients of our society, as they should If the probation service paired ex-military probation be. officers with ex-military released prisoners, that might Introducing this legislation is exactly the wrong thing radically reduce the chance of reoffending. For example, to do. It would prove to be a nightmare for us, opening in Buffalo, New York, where such a system has been the door to the introduction of other special occupational applied, reoffending rates among veterans and soldiers categories and involving us in complexity, futility, perversity have dropped to 0%, and across the United States the and jeopardy. I worry that it reflects a sentimentalising rate has dropped to 20%. That is not discrimination of soldiers that also uses them as a means to a political legislation or special treatment; it is an understanding end, and that it is an attempt to portray them as victims of the context. when they are in fact autonomous, independent, confident I appear to be losing the attention of the hon. Member individuals capable of holding their own with anyone for Dunfermline and West Fife so I will move on to the else in society. If they require special treatment from final stage of my speech. We need to be careful about this House, it is not through anti-discrimination legislation discrimination legislation for a third, more difficult but concrete, small, focused measures that can easily be reason, which is that—I appeal to my hon. Friend the introduced by the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry Minister here—we should not begin to have an unrealistic of Justice to the benefit of the public as a whole. attitude to our relationship with the armed forces. We must balance carefully showing respect for people’s Mr Cash: On a point of order, Madam Deputy sacrifice and service with realism. We cannot begin to Speaker. Would it be possible for the Leader of the create a sentimental context in which, through special House to be called to the House to explain the circumstances treatment, by which I mean treatment that is not justified in which, as I understand it from the House of Lords, on the basis of people’s service or sacrifice, it is not the European Union (Referendum) Bill is now, in effect, possible for us to engage realistically with the military. a dead parrot? What do I mean by that? This is important: the danger of this discrimination legislation, apart from the problems Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I of complexity, futility and jeopardy, and apart from the appreciate that the hon. Gentleman wishes to bring this fact that we have alternative policy solutions, is that it news to the House and is using the mechanism of a reflects a cultural attitude that, though understandable point of order so to do, but this House has not, as yet, and admirable, is sometimes in danger of portraying been informed of anything that has happened in the soldiers and veterans as victims. other place this morning. I am sure that the House will In other words, there is a danger of sentimentalising be informed in due course in the proper manner, and soldiers and believing that they need to be treated with that when the news from the other end of the Palace kid gloves. More dangerous—this is particularly relevant reaches this end of the Palace, the necessary steps will in relation to how we deal with policy in Afghanistan be taken by the Ministers responsible. and Iraq—is the idea that we should not criticise the armed forces and that they need such special treatment 1.28 pm as to affect the job of this House, which is often to hold soldiers and generals vigorously and aggressively to Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): I congratulate my account, to disagree with the policies that they propose, hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West and sometimes to make an even more difficult decision Fife (Thomas Docherty) on bringing to the House this to withdraw soldiers from combat notwithstanding the very important issue on which he has done an amazing fact that there will be a huge public outcry demanding amount of work. He deserves a great deal of credit for to know whether soldiers have died in vain. Putting that, as does my predecessor, the former shadow Secretary forward soldiers as victims and talking about their of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for East sufferings can become very dangerous for the soldiers Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), who worked very hard themselves and for the public policy process. with him on the matter. What we need, and what I am afraid this Bill goes I do not think there is any difference between any against, is a realistic, respectful attitude towards the Members in this House in terms of the regard in which armed forces—not an attitude that treats them with kid we all hold the armed forces. This has been a very good gloves or suggests that they are suffering the form of about how to ensure that the warm words and rhetoric discrimination from which minority ethnic groups, disabled that we all use, sincerely, are reflected in policies and in groups and women in this country have suffered, but the legislation that we pass. It is in that context that I one that recognises their sacrifice and recognises that it hope hon. Members will reflect on my remarks. The can often be difficult to be a soldier or a veteran. It is an Minister, whom I know well, will understand and accept attitude that puts in place concrete, plausible policies—for that. example, in the criminal justice system—to help soldiers The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory and veterans as they reintegrate into society; shows, Stewart) made some important intellectual points. through the forces charities, memorial days, poppy Sometimes when it is said that someone made a good collections, the media, documentaries and the things intellectual argument the suggestion is that that somehow that are said in this House, our immense admiration for undermines the case, but I mean it as a compliment, the armed forces; and continues to improve this country’s because rushing through policy without giving it an cultural attitudes towards the armed forces, which, intellectual context can result in legislation that is either incidentally, have never been so positive. This is not the not good or unclear. 611 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 612 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill [Vernon Coaker] the Bill because I believe that it could make an awful lot of difference to a small number of people who find The hon. Gentleman made some good arguments. I civilian life very difficult. agree with him that, when dealing with particular issues in society, policy may be developed through education Vernon Coaker: I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. and debate as a means of changing attitudes that we Of course some members and former members of the think are wrong. He gave examples of some of the armed services have the difficulties that he mentions, awful sexism and racism our society has seen, but, in which we should reflect on and recognise in this debate. order to change things, this House deemed it necessary It was good to hear about the attendance of people at not only to promote the sort of cultural change that he the Remembrance day event in Corby. talked about, but to legislate to give effect to it. That is All of us agree about the high regard people have for what this debate boils down to. We all agree that we can our armed forces, both past and present. I support the change practice through education, debate and encouraging Bill because legislation is needed to protect our armed people to reflect on their attitudes. We tell people, “It is forces, both past and present, in particular circumstances. wrong for you to act in this way,” in the hope that social The point of difference between the Minister and me is pressure will change how they behave. about how we do that. In my view, the majority of people respect members May I say that it is very important to have a bipartisan of the armed forces because they are in the armed approach to the Bill? I very much agree with my hon. forces. They do not need legislation to tell them to do Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife that. However—this is where my view differs from that about that. I say gently to the Minister, and perhaps she of the hon. Gentleman—sometimes educational policy will reflect on this with her colleagues, that she is right and cultural change alone are not sufficient and need to say that there is a paragraph about discrimination on legislation to back them up and to lead society in the page 54 of the armed forces covenant annual report direction we want it to go. That is what the Bill does, in 2013—it states that the Government have reflected on a narrow way. As the hon. Member for Beckenham the issues, but are not sure that legislation is the right (Bob Stewart) has said, of course we want attitudes to way forward, as she will have read—but from the way in change, but at times we need legislation to give effect to which the Minister for the Armed Forces responded to that change. That is probably the point of difference a similar debate a year ago, we all expected a little more between me and the hon. Member for Penrith and The than that. I say gently to the Minister that because the Border. issue is so important, as today’s debate has shown, she It is important to say to the country and the public at should reflect with her colleagues on whether a more large that we recognise—other Members, including my detailed response is needed. hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, have said this—that this country’s armed forces Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend is entirely right, have never been as highly regarded as they are now. I and I concur with the point he is making. Very clear hope this will not be out of order, Madam Deputy indications were given to me and to hon. Members on Speaker, but, having spoken to Members throughout both sides of the House that the MOD would question the House, I think that was most reflected in the record and look at Lord Ashcroft’s figures, and then put a attendances at the recent Remembrance day services. “section” into the report about it. The MOD has neither The turnout—if that is the appropriate word; perhaps put in such a section nor provided any evidence. I “attendance” is better—including by very young people genuinely believe that if the MOD thinks that the who understood the significance of what was happening, figures are inaccurate, it needs to demonstrate why that was a fantastic tribute to them all and spoke well of our is not supported by its own study. society and communities. The coming together of people to reflect on services done and duties that will be done Vernon Coaker: I very much agree with my hon. gave an opportunity for them to show the sort of Friend. The Minister has heard his and my remarks, so patriotism that I think we all welcome and want to see. will she reflect on whether in next year’s annual report, That is the context of this debate: the high regard or in the interim, a more detailed assessment can be people have for the armed forces, as demonstrated at the made? Remembrance day commemorations. There is evidence that progress has been made on the military covenant. To go back to the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border, I think that a cultural change is Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. Friend’s taking place. One thing that has happened is that there point about Remembrance Sunday was certainly reflected are more soldiers on the streets, which is good to see. I in my constituency. I was also very proud to see such a am interested in whether the hon. Member for Beckenham strong turnout when the square in the heart of Corby agrees. More soldiers as well as Air Force and Navy was this year renamed the James Ashworth memorial personnel—armed forces personnel—feel able, in many square after our Victoria Cross hero, who was posthumously circumstances, to wear their uniforms in public. That is given that honour. a positive thing of which we should all be proud. May I ask my hon. Friend to comment on the character of this debate? We recognise and it is good to acknowledge Bob Stewart: I thank the shadow Secretary of State that most serving and former soldiers are strong and for saying that. I absolutely agree: I want to see many proud, and very capable and successful in their lives, but more people in uniform. I listened very carefully to the we all know from surgeries in our constituencies that arguments of my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith people who have been in our armed forces at times find and The Border (Rory Stewart), who is right and wrong. their lives very difficult for all sorts of reasons. I support He is wrong because, as the hon. Member for Dunfermline 613 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 614 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) suggested, this House and, with the example given by my hon. Friend the should send a signal that we do not in any way still Member for Dunfermline and West Fife about a pub in support the misconceptions produced by poems such as Edinburgh, some evidence suggests that we perhaps “If” and need to take action that backs the armed forces in “For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ Chuck him out, the legislation and makes the rhetoric in this House a brute!” reality. Despite the difficulties, which I accept exist, of legislating I would like the House to reflect on a quote from in some form, this House should say clearly to the Lord Ashcroft’s report, which I think sums up the nation, “Have respect for our armed forces.” That should situation and the reason for the Bill: be written into law, and I totally support the shadow “Personnel often said their priority was not special recognition, Secretary of State’s position. but not to be disadvantaged in society because they were in the Forces.” Vernon Coaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. It is good that more members of our armed forces feel Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend is making a able to wear their uniform, and that they are proud to consensual speech. On the point about signals, the do so and are accepted. That is part of the important MOD has previously said that service chiefs have indicated cultural change that has taken place. no desire for this measure, but during my time on the Defence Committee and in my many visits to military establishments, and indeed when members of the armed Rory Stewart: May I reflect a little on what my hon. forces come to this place, I am constantly being thanked Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) has by personnel who say, “You’re the MP bringing in that just said? Sending a signal is a strange reason to introduce Bill. It’s great that someone’s doing it.” My hon. Friend a highly complex form of discrimination legislation. is right to say that the Bill has been hugely welcomed by Nobody in this House would disagree in any way that members of the armed forces who no longer wish to be we should show immense respect for the military and do discriminated against. all we can culturally to enhance that. Does the hon. Gentleman agree, however, that discrimination legislation must be introduced on much more detailed and serious Bob Stewart: It is a signal. grounds than simply being a symbolic act that sends a signal? Thomas Docherty: It is a signal, Madam Deputy Speaker. Vernon Coaker: Like the hon. Member for Beckenham Vernon Coaker: As I have said, it is really important (Bob Stewart) I both agree and disagree with the hon. to say to members of our armed forces, both past and Gentleman. Of course we should not introduce this present, that we respect what they have done, are doing measure just as a way of sending a signal, and we must and will do in future, and the Bill would make the have a reason for doing it other than symbolic purposes. rhetoric a reality. It would enshrine it in legislation. In a minute, however, I will come to some of the That is a really important signal. evidence we have seen and why I think this is more than a symbolic gesture—yes, I regard this as a sign, but it is Clause 1 would make an assault against a member of also necessary. That is where I and the hon. Member for the armed forces an aggravated crime. In answer to the Beckenham disagree with the hon. Member for Penrith point made by the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip and The Border. The issue is not about the regard in Davies) on whether the Bill refers to armed forces which anybody holds the troops, or any such thing; it is personnel undertaking their duties, my reading of it just a disagreement about how best to take forward the indicates that that point is covered in clause 1(a), which issue and deal with some of the things that we know refers to their occur. “status as a service person”. The Minister will no doubt say that the previous That is where in the Bill membership of the armed Government had the opportunity to introduce this Bill forces is shown to be the important element with regard in 2008. They did not, but it is fair to say that we all to an aggravated offence. That is the important point. sometimes reflect on decisions that we did or did not I say to the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border make. After the past two or three years, and particularly that of course this is a difficult area, but it is also after the evidence provided by Lord Ashcroft, we must difficult in some of the other areas in which discrimination clearly reflect on whether, in the light of new evidence, legislation operates. Ultimately—I know that he knows we should continue to hold our current position. The this—that is why the Crown Prosecution Service makes 2012 report, “The Armed Forces & Society”, described decisions, which are sometimes very difficult, on whether worrying incidents of verbal and physical abuse, and we prosecution is in the public interest and whether there is must therefore reflect on that and consider whether a reasonable prospect of a case reaching a conclusion. further legislation is necessary. What we are saying is that the aggravated offence would There exists a body of evidence, including from the be added to the list that already exists so that the CPS book by the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the can take that into account when it makes those prosecuting hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), decisions. “Tommy this an’ Tommy that”, and the several things that have occurred that were mentioned previously— Rory Stewart: To use the hon. Gentleman’s phrase, I somebody who had been at a Remembrance day service agree and disagree. Of course it is true that existing in their uniform being refused service by Harrods and discrimination legislation is unbelievably complex and allegations of banks and building societies turning down difficult to handle. However, that is a reason for not mortgage applications. Such things have taken place extending it further. Precisely because of the problems 615 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 616 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill [Rory Stewart] Today, the House is being asked to consider whether the specific category of the armed forces should be of application, it should remain absolutely focused on included in legislation to prevent discrimination against the most egregious, extreme and centuries-old cases of them on the basis of their membership of the armed discrimination and should not be pushed it into new forces. I do not believe that that would open the floodgates categories. to other occupations in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests. Vernon Coaker: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s position, but we will have to agree to disagree, because I Rory Stewart: I shall give a concrete example of what think that it is worth extending the discrimination legislation might occur. It is plausible that there could be thousands to allow an assault against a member of the armed of assaults over a two-year period against employees of forces because they are a member of the armed forces to train companies. At present, we protect employees of be an aggravated offence. Of course, if we have anti- train companies under existing legislation. If a conductor discrimination legislation, that does not mean—this on a train is assaulted, they are protected under the might answer the point about being in a pub—that all legislation that also protects a soldier from being assaulted. the other laws that normally apply to people would not But once the Bill has been passed, it would be relatively apply. For example, if somebody breaks the law by straightforward for people to try to address a scandal being drunk and disorderly, by fighting or by stealing, that emerged—which was a problem of occupation— of course other laws apply, but we are specifically through discrimination legislation rather than relying dealing with people being discriminated against simply on the existing law. because they are members of the armed forces. Vernon Coaker: As the hon. Gentleman says, that Rory Stewart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving goes to the nub of the argument. Of course there are way again; he is being very generous. On the specific criminal laws that try to prevent people from being question of aggravating circumstances with regard to assaulted. The point that we are making is that assault violent assault, it is difficult to understand how the hon. should be an aggravated offence if it occurs simply Gentleman would propose to limit it simply to members because someone is a member of the armed forces. I of the armed forces. It would be relatively easy for the think that would be a proportionate response by the House, and indeed for any judges or campaigners, to House, and I do not believe that it would open the think of many other cases in which there could be an floodgates to other occupations. aggravated assault against an individual on the basis of Clause 2 would mean that armed forces personnel their occupation, for example against a train conductor could not be discriminated against in the provision of because they are an employee of a railway company, or goods and services simply as a result of their status, and against an individual because of their relationship to similar arguments apply to the clause as applied to some aspect of the emergency services. Given that he is clause 1. arguing that this extension to the armed forces would This has been an incredibly good debate on this not open a floodgate of precedents for its application to hugely important issue. The issue between the two sides many other restricted occupations, how does he expect of the debate is not the regard in which the armed forces to limit it and ensure that many other categories of are held: we all hold them in high regard, as we have aggravated assault will not be introduced as a result? said. But I support my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife and others because we can Vernon Coaker: This House legislates for the country, change the legislation to ensure that we back our armed and those who support the Bill are saying that we forces not only with rhetoric but by addressing problems believe that laws on discrimination should be extended they face. They face discrimination simply because they to members of the armed forces. If other categories or are members of the armed forces and the House needs occupations are regarded by other hon. Members as to tackle that. We have the opportunity to do so today. needing the protection of the law, they will need to bring a Bill before Parliament to that effect. We are saying that legislation is necessary in respect of the 1.54 pm armed forces. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): It is a genuine pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), Rory Stewart: The hon. Gentleman has put his finger who knows full well that I am a big fan of his. He made on the nub of the problem. If this Bill would open the it clear today why I am such a fan, because he set out his floodgates for every Member of Parliament to come case reasonably clearly and in a way that many of us forward with other restricted occupations that they could subscribe to. I also congratulate the hon. Member wish to add to discrimination legislation, the basic idea for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), of that legislation—which was to protect gender, race, who is a regular on a Friday. He pursues his agenda disability and age—would be extended into specialised with vigour, and has done the same again today, and I occupations. That would be very dangerous for the do not doubt the sincerity of the case he makes. The operation of the law. shadow Minister made one of the most pertinent points when he said this was not about our regard for the Vernon Coaker: That is the first thing that the hon. armed forces. It goes without saying that we are all Gentleman has said that I fundamentally disagree with. strong supporters of the armed forces, on both sides of It is the “dancing on the head of a pin” argument. Of the House; I am not aware of anybody who is not. The course it is possible that that would happen, but would issue is whether the Bill is the right way to proceed. it actually happen? No, it would not. The House makes law sensibly and reasonably, notwithstanding one or Thomas Docherty: Has the hon. Gentleman ever been two obvious examples. to Bradford West? 617 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 618 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill Philip Davies: Yes, I know Bradford West. It is my Thomas Docherty: Let me say first that I cannot neighbouring constituency. I have not heard even the imagine why anyone would ever discriminate against hon. Member for Bradford West (George Galloway) say people with reddish hair, Madam Deputy Speaker—except, anything against our armed forces. He might disagree perhaps, out of jealousy. with the conflicts in which they participate, but I have If the hon. Gentleman can point to a category of not heard my parliamentary neighbour say anything people in which one in four has suffered physical or adverse about them—but that is for him to deal with. verbal assault or have been turned away from trade and In this debate, I generally come down on the side of sales outlets, I genuinely think that that should be my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border looked into, but I suspect that he cannot name a single (Rory Stewart), who I thought made an excellent speech, such category. as he always does in this place. He made an excellent case and one to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. My Philip Davies: I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), can prove beyond any doubt that people in any category who I rarely disagree with, and the hon. Member for have not been discriminated against. I suspect that no Dunfermline and West Fife said several times that the research has been done to ascertain whether people Bill was important in order to send a signal. My hon. with the characteristics that I have mentioned have or Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border rightly have not experienced discrimination. It just so happens picked up on that point. Yes, it is often important to that the characteristic identified by him has been the send a signal about things we consider important, either subject of research by Lord Ashcroft—whose excellent individually or collectively, and that is often the purpose polling activities I am sure we all welcome—and the of our debates. What I question, and what I think my hon. Gentleman knows about it for that reason. There hon. Friend questions, is whether that is a sensible basis may be other discrimination issues that we do not yet on which to pass a law. That is my issue with the Bill. know about because no such polling has been carried out. Thomas Docherty: It might help if I clarify this point. Rory Stewart: It may be worth looking at the statistics. Sending a signal is a valuable part of the Bill, but the My instinct tells me that employees of railway companies simple hard facts, which the MOD has not been able to are more likely to suffer physical or verbal assault than dispute, is that from Lord Ashcroft’s studies and our members of the armed forces. That is just one example experiences as MPs, we know that one in four members of another category. of our armed forces has reported, through the study, that they have suffered discrimination. With that level of discrimination, it is not a matter of symbolism, but a Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is entirely right. Indeed, need that requires action. I think that we could go somewhat further. We have probably all come across evidence of people working in jobcentres who have faced terrible abuse because they Philip Davies: I am not sure I totally follow the hon. have had to turn someone down for a benefit. As I have Gentleman’s logic. Of course we want to send our said, we all appreciate the work done by our armed support to the armed forces; we all agree with that. For forces, but I struggle to understand why attacking someone goodness’ sake, they put their lives on the line to defend for being a member of the armed forces—bad though our freedoms. I have no doubt either that members of that is—should necessarily be considered any worse the armed forces—he gave examples—have faced than attacking someone simply for being a member of discrimination for being members of the armed forces. I staff at a jobcentre who happened to implement a do not quibble with that. Personally, I think that any policy that he or she was employed to implement. attack on or discrimination against service personnel Surely those attacks are equally unacceptable and equally based simply on their being service personnel should be unjustifiable. and would be wholeheartedly condemned by every right- Similarly, we hear of accident and emergency staff thinking person not only in the House but in the country. being subjected to terrible attacks and abuse on a Of course it would. I do not think anybody is disputing regular basis, and I consider that to be as unacceptable that for one minute. and unjustifiable as any attack on someone simply for If we follow the hon. Gentleman’s logic, however, we being a member of the armed forces. I cannot for the could name all sorts of categories of people who might life of me understand why the hon. Gentleman wants to say that their category has faced discrimination on restrict himself to members of the armed forces. If he many occasions, and it goes way beyond the already feels that a certain category of people should not be protected characteristics that my hon. Friend the Member abused simply because of the role that they perform, for Penrith and The Border set out. I know lots of surely he must want to extend that to those in all the people who would say they had been discriminated other occupations I have mentioned. If he does not, I against in the workplace because they were bald, fat or should like to know why. It seems to me that they, too, had ginger hair, or for all sorts of other reasons. I am do a fantastic job in the public service, and should be sure that the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West recognised for that reason. Fife accepts that many people in those categories have said that from time to time they have faced discrimination Thomas Docherty: I do not think that I need probe that has been totally unfair, without merit and irrational. my own logic. My position is absolutely clear. I have I am not sure whether he is suggesting that everybody established that there is a systemic problem: evidence who comes along and says, “We have faced discrimination provided, with the support of the Ministry of Defence, at some point in the past,” should have their characteristic shows that one in four members of our armed forces protected. Surely even he would not want to go that far. has suffered physical or verbal assault, or other forms 619 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 620 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill [Thomas Docherty] There are some exceptions; my hon. Friend touched on them. I particularly feel that attacks on people who of discrimination. The MOD has yet to provide any have a disability are especially abhorrent for all sorts of evidence to refute that. As I said, it promised last year reasons, but the main one is that they are often vulnerable to undertake a study, but has so far failed to do so. people who are in no position to defend themselves. Cruelty to children can be put in a similar category. But these are all matters of individual viewpoint and down Philip Davies: We seem to be going round in circles, to our own values. and I am trying to resist doing that, because I am sure Beyond that, however, it becomes very difficult to we all want to hear from the Minister. decide which person is more important and which offence I have not yet heard anyone—including my hon. is more suitable simply based on the fact of who has Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border—deny been attacked as opposed to the nature of the offence. that people may well, on occasion, feel that they have been discriminated against or abused simply because of Bob Stewart: But Members of our armed forces are their membership of the armed forces. I have heard no different. They are treated differently. They are subject one disagree with that premise as yet. The fact is, to civil law and on top of that they have to answer to however—and this is what the hon. Gentleman does military law. In that respect, they are different to everyone not seem to accept—that the same thing happens to else. plenty of other people simply as a consequence of their jobs. Staff in jobcentres, people who work in accident Philip Davies: My hon. Friend says that, but, of and emergency departments, and other public sector course, police officers would say their terms and conditions workers who do a fantastic job for the country should are very different from the situation of people in everyday not suffer assaults and abuse either, and yet they do. life; they do not have the same protections. Also, what he does not refer to in making that point is that this I do not want to start trying to decide which jobs are Bill’s reach goes way beyond people who are currently more important than others, because I do not think that in service. It talks about people who have been in would be particularly healthy. They are all crucial jobs. service. It also talks about relatives of people who are in We all rely on the people who do those jobs, and, in my service, and the Bill’s definition of a relative specifies view, they all deserve equal protection before the law. that it “shall mean any relative.” We are not even talking For instance, I cannot think of anything that the hon. about parents or siblings, therefore; we are talking Gentleman has said that would not apply to police about any relative no matter how distant they may be. I officers. They get terrible abuse simply for being police am not entirely sure on what basis my hon. Friend officers. I hear them being called all sorts of names that thinks they should be protected compared with everybody are totally unacceptable. The police do a fantastic job. else. I see absolutely no justification for that, yet there it Where the law does apply specifically to the police is is on the face of the Bill. The hon. Gentleman has made the special offence for an assault on a police constable a special case for any relative, which I think goes way in execution of his duty. I might be reasonably sympathetic beyond what even my hon. Friend believes is reasonable. to the hon. Gentleman’s case if he came along and said, It worries me that what the hon. Gentleman is doing is “I think that what happens for the armed forces should trying to send a signal—make a political point—rather mirror what happens for the police,” but he is not trying than provide a serious basis for what the law of the land to bring in an equivalent measure. He is trying to bring should be. in something completely different which has nothing to I want to make a couple of other brief points, explaining do with the execution of duties. It simply relates to the how I think the hon. Gentleman would be better served. occupation of members of our armed forces. First, offences against people in the public sector and in public service is already an aggravating factor in the law. My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Given the Minister’s background, she will know all Border touched on the point that there is a slight irony about that. The sentencing guidelines on assault, for in the Bill and I want to highlight it. Clause 2, on the example, have as an aggravating factor an offence committed prohibition of discrimination, is designed to ensure that “against those working in the public sector or providing a service members of the armed forces are treated equally with to the public.” everybody else in the country. It is a perfectly laudable aim that people should be treated equally. It is one that I Given that that is already in the sentencing guidelines, I agree with. However, clause 1 tries to ensure that members am not entirely sure why we need a new law. Judges can of the armed forces are not treated equally compared take that into account as an aggravating factor when it with everybody else, but that in some respects they comes to passing sentence. On that basis alone, the Bill should be treated differently from other people in the is unnecessary. eyes of the law. I have always thought that an essential There is a great irony. Although it is not like me to get tenet of the law is that everybody is equal in the face of party political about such matters, I have to say that the it. I think that should apply to victims as well as people hon. Gentleman represents a party which, when it was who commit crimes. We should not be trying to separate in government, introduced a law that insisted that people out different categories of people. We should look at the who were sent to prison had to be released—not had to offence committed and prosecute people based on the be eligible for release—halfway through their sentence seriousness of the offence, and the victim should be irrespective of the crime they had committed. The treated equally whoever the victim happens to be, based shadow Minister was part of that Government and so is on what happened to them. When we start trying to more culpable in that matter. pick and choose and say attacks on one category of If the Bill is aimed at people who commit assaults people are more serious than those on another, we are and attacks on members of the armed forces, it would going down a dangerous road. be far better and more productive if the hon. Gentleman 621 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 622 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill were to work to scrap that law passed under the previous our country. The Race Relations Acts and the Sex Labour Government, to ensure that when people are Discrimination Act 1975 are huge achievements that sent to prison they serve in full the sentence handed have changed our society. I was brought up in Worksop down by the courts. That would ensure that those and I well remember what it was like when I was a child. people whom he wants to see spend longer in prison I remember with some horror, watching a documentary—in actually do spend longer in prison. If he wants to go fact, I think it was in Birmingham—in which signs in down that line, it would be far more productive if we boarding houses said “No blacks.” It is inconceivable. ensured that everybody served their sentence in full. My children cannot believe that that ever happened in Everyone in the country was absolutely horrified at this country. what happened to Drummer Lee Rigby. I am not sure whether that was what prompted the hon. Gentleman Mr David Hamilton: Will the Minister give way? to introduce this Bill. The Government have already changed the law in relation to those who are convicted Anna Soubry: We know that, sadly, there is still racial of the murder of transsexuals and people with disability. discrimination, but goodness me, the scale of it now is The starting point for their life sentence and the minimum much smaller than the scale that we remember from sentence they should serve has gone up. If that is what when we were young. I think the hon. Member for he wanted to do—to make the starting point for a Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) is about the same age as me. conviction for the murder of a member of the armed Of course I will give way. forces 30 years as it is for those other hate crimes where a murder is involved—he should have tried to ensure Mr Hamilton: I recall that when we went to Blackpool, that we rejected the ruling of the European Court of which was a favourite haunt of the Scots, the signs read, Human Rights on life sentences and followed the line “No blacks, no Irish, no dogs”, all on the same sign. It that if someone is sentenced to life in prison for murder, was outrageous. they serve the rest of their life in prison. Anna Soubry: Indeed. I do not want to dwell on it for If the hon. Gentleman really wants people who are too long, but my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith committing those particular offences to serve the time and The Border made a point about those great pieces in prison that we all want them to serve, it would be far of legislation and why we introduced them. We did it better to ensure that life means life and that prisoners because we recognised that there was a deep-seated serve their sentences in full. That would achieve what long-standing discrimination, prejudice or intolerance both he and I want, which is for serious offenders to be that we no longer tolerated. In order to cure that great treated properly no matter who the victim is. That evil, those great pieces of legislation were properly would suit the people in the armed forces who are passed by this place. victims of these crimes; they would see that justice had been done. Rory Stewart: I just want to put it on the record that Although we can all agree with the sentiment behind what I was hoping to argue—perhaps I was not articulate the Bill—that we should support our armed forces and enough—was that that legislation has, of course, been that we think any attack on them or discrimination one of the great achievements of our age and something against them is unjustifiable and unnecessary—I, like of which we should be proud as a civilisation but it was my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border, also cumbersome, difficult, sometimes futile and sometimes think that passing a Bill to send a signal is not what this perverse and should therefore not be extended too House should do. On that basis, I cannot support it. I widely. As an achievement, it has been extraordinary. hope that the Minister will come down on the side of The change to cultural attitudes is something of which my hon. Friend and me, and not think that this Bill is we should be deeply proud. the right vehicle with which to proceed. Anna Soubry: I am grateful for that intervention. 2.13 pm Let me turn to this Bill and why I would argue against it. It is not that I do not share any of the sentiment and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence many of the concerns that have been articulated. If I (Anna Soubry): I congratulate the hon. Member for thought for one moment that there was the widespread Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) on prejudice, discrimination or so on against members of bringing this Bill before the House. Like the hon. Member our armed forces in our society in the UK that is being for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), I thank and congratulate suggested, I would not hesitate not only to support the all those who have contributed to the debate. I share his Bill but to introduce and make the case myself. As yet, observation that this has been a very good debate. In however, I have not heard such a clamour at my door as particular, let me single out my hon. Friend the Member the Minister responsible for personnel, welfare and for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), who made veterans. one of the best speeches that I have had the pleasure of hearing in this place. He said that he was not a lawyer, Thomas Docherty: I agree with the Minister that this but he spoke with all the jurisprudential knowledge and has been a good debate. On the specific point about the understanding of one. I fully endorse all that he said evidence, if the MOD sincerely does not believe that the but, if I may, let me make only one criticism. Every time Ashcroft study is a fair reflection of the situation, will he said soldier, I would add, “sailor, airman or airwoman” the Minister undertake that, as my hon. Friend the to reflect all members of our armed forces. shadow Secretary of State has already suggested, the I disagree with my hon. Friend, however, about what MOD will do its own work to refute the Ashcroft he would call the downside of those great Acts of evidence? That is the only study out there and it shows Parliament that have sought to end discrimination in high levels of discrimination. 623 Armed Forces (Prevention of 24 JANUARY 2014 Armed Forces (Prevention of 624 Discrimination) Bill Discrimination) Bill Anna Soubry: I shall deal with the Ashcroft study in a are set by the Sentencing Council, and of course the moment, but let me make it absolutely clear that I listen direction to the CPS comes from the office of the to any arguments that are made. I must tell the hon. Attorney-General. Gentleman that there is no clamour at my door at all. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me: My understanding is that there is no demand among although I worked in Scotland for about three or four our armed forces for such legislation. I understand that years and had the great pleasure of appearing in the we disagree, but let me explain one important point. My sheriff court—I digress—I am not entirely familiar with hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) the Scottish legal system. However, as I say, establishing made an extremely important point about the law and the aggravating features did not require legislation, and protections that already exist. It is incredibly important knowing that Scottish law is—with few exceptions, I that we remember that. Of course, an assault is an would have thought—extremely good, I would be surprised assault, and where the police believe that there is evidence if there was not provision within existing Scottish legislation to support a charge, they charge, and in due course the to ensure that these aggravating features are set out. Crown Prosecution Service considers the evidence and decides whether to proceed to a full court hearing. A mistake that we often make in this place is to think I remind the hon. Member for Gedling that the CPS’s that if we have not passed a law, we have not sought to own documentation makes it clear that the CPS has a cure an ill that we have identified. The hon. Member for duty, when it believes that there has been an assault on Gedling made the good point that there are occasions somebody because of their public service, to bring when this place has rushed into legislation. The legislation forward a prosecution and to do everything it can to on dangerous dogs is a really good example—that was ensure that that prosecution is successful. In its code of created under a Conservative Government, so I am not practice, the CPS recognises that it should pursue making a cheap party political point. prosecutions for assaults on public servants. There is a danger of rushing into legislation. I would That is reflected in the sentencing guidelines, which even go so far as to say that at times in this House we my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley has already become slightly over-sentimental. The sentiment in the referred to. Perhaps this point is not understood widely House is absolutely right, because we all pay tribute to and I hope to ensure that people understand it: when a everyone who serves their country as a member of the judge considers sentencing, they consider the mitigating armed forces and know of the huge sacrifices that they features that might be advanced on behalf of the defendant are prepared to make, but that should not cloud our and then the aggravating features that might be advanced minds into seeing people in our armed forces as a by the prosecution. It is absolutely clear that an offence special category—other than perhaps that they are even against those working in the public sector or providing dearer to our hearts than others who serve our country, a service to the public is an aggravating feature. That such as those in the police, and the ambulance and fire means that, if the custodial threshold is passed, any services—although we know that they regularly put sentence of imprisonment is automatically increased by their lives at risk and we have great respect for them. the judge. The hon. Members for Corby (Andy Sawford) and My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley has already for Gedling talked about current public opinion of our made the point about people working, for example, in armed forces personnel, which I do not think will jobcentres or accident and emergency units, including diminish. We see people turning out not just on nurses and security staff, who are sometimes assaulted. Remembrance Sunday, but for home-coming parades. Indeed, there was a spate of assaults against nurses and When I visited the home-coming parade at Stapleford other workers in A and E units, and the provisions in my constituency only last year, on a really wet, cold about the aggravating features in the sentencing guidelines and miserable May day, I was staggered that one simply were highlighted, so that judges were left under no could not move as the streets were literally jam-packed. illusion whatever that if someone assaults an individual purely because of their public service—including, of The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife course, members of our armed forces—that is a seriously was right to raise the important point of the Ashcroft aggravating feature. report. I am told that the report was based on a survey of about 9,000 service personnel that was conducted at In short, the law currently provides the special protection the end of 2011. Those people were asked to talk about for members of our armed forces, and indeed all public their experiences over the previous five years—since servants, that we would expect, and there is no need to about 2006—which is important because, as we have change it. heard, there has been significant change in the attitude Mr David Hamilton: I thank the Minister for giving of some sections of society to our armed forces. way a second time. This is getting worrying; in my Some 61% of personnel who responded to the survey 13 years in Parliament, this is the second time that I said that they rarely or never wore their uniform in have agreed with the Conservatives on something. Will public in everyday situations in the United Kingdom. she undertake to ensure that what she said is also the More than half all personnel, including two thirds of case under Scottish law? Scottish legislation was changed Army respondents, said that strangers had approached last year to do the same things that are being done in them to offer thanks or support while they were wearing England. Can she ensure that what she has said also their uniform in public. I suggest that that figure would applies to the armed forces under the Scotland Act now be considerably higher, given when the survey took 1998? place and the fact that it investigated the previous five years. Anna Soubry: I am grateful for that intervention. Of course, what I have just outlined did not require laws to be changed. Sentencing guidelines in England and Wales Thomas Docherty: Will the Minister give way? 625 24 JANUARY 2014 Business without Debate 626

Anna Soubry: I will, but first I want to conclude this INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT (OFFICIAL important part of my speech. DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANCE TARGET) BILL Some 29% of respondents said that strangers had Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second offered to buy them drinks or similar, while a quarter, time. including a third of Army respondents, had received spontaneous offers of discounts in shops or other businesses. Hon. Members: Object. With the work of the covenant and through various Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. schemes such as the blue light card, an astonishing number of businesses—often small, independent ones—are offering special discounts to our armed forces personnel JOBS GUARANTEE SCHEME (RESEARCH) BILL and veterans, which demonstrates the huge shift in Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second public attitude. time.

Thomas Docherty rose— Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. Anna Soubry: I suspect that this is the bit that the hon. Gentleman will like. Actually, I do not mean “like”, because I know that these statistics trouble him, GANGMASTERS LICENSING AUTHORITY but they do relate to the purpose of his Bill. (EXTENSION OF POWERS) BILL More than a fifth of respondents had experienced Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second strangers shouting abuse—that might not in itself, in time. any event, be a criminal offence—and 18%, including a quarter of Royal Marines, had been refused service in Hon. Members: Object. pubs, hotels or elsewhere. More than one in 20 had Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. experienced violence or attempted violence while out in their uniform in the United Kingdom. Of course that is ZERO HOURS CONTRACTS BILL concerning, but the figure is one in 20. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Thomas Docherty: The Minister is sincere in questioning whether the data are correct, so will she give an undertaking Hon. Members: Object. that the MOD will carry out a survey this year so that we can have the updated figures? Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February.

Anna Soubry: I am absolutely not able to say that I CONTROL OF OFFSHORE WIND TURBINES will ask my team to conduct a survey, but I absolutely BILL undertake, and I know that my predecessor did this, to Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (17 January), ensure that we are alert to any increase in discrimination That the Bill be now read a Second time. or prejudice towards, or assaults on, our servicemen and women. The reality is that since my predecessor Hon. Members: Object. gave such an undertaking, we have kept ourselves absolutely alert, as hon. Members would expect—[Interruption.] Debate to be resumed on Friday 28 February. The hon. Member for Gedling suggests from a sedentary position—that is not a problem; it would be wrong for EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES BILL me to complain about him doing that, given that I did Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second quite a lot of it myself—that that is not reflected in the time. report, but we are not aware of any increase or problem. We are not receiving from our armed services the various representations— Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. 2.30 pm The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)). EU MEMBERSHIP (AUDIT OF COSTS AND BENEFITS) BILL Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Friday 28 February. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Business without Debate Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February.

TRAIN COMPANIES (MINIMUM FARES) BILL ASYLUM (TIME LIMIT) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. time.

Hon. Members: Object. Hon. Members: Object. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. 627 24 JANUARY 2014 628

FOREIGN NATIONALS (ACCESS TO PUBLIC Maritime Apprenticeships SERVICES) BILL Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second do now adjourn.—(Mark Lancaster.) time.

Hon. Members: Object. 2.34 pm Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased to have secured this debate, which I asked HOUSE OF LORDS (MAXIMUM MEMBERSHIP) for after Dan Henderson, a constituent and National BILL Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers local Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second representative at Caledonian MacBrayne ferries, visited time. one of my constituency surgeries. He highlighted CalMac’s positive work in my constituency, such as the apprenticeship Hon. Members: Object. scheme that it is now running after two years of very Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. hard work by the RMT, the Scottish Trades Union Congress, Scottish Union Learning, Skills Development Scotland, the Maritime Skills Alliance and CalMac. I HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS’ FUND BILL am a member of the RMT parliamentary group, which Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second is perhaps partly why Dan Henderson came to my time. surgery. I thank the RMT, particularly Dan Crimes at its head office, for the briefing it has provided for this Hon. Members: Object. debate. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February. The work of unions such as the RMT with CalMac resulted in CalMac successfully offering 10 apprenticeships, including to two of my constituents who are aspiring seafarers. The 10 places were hugely oversubscribed, with over 1,000 applications received, testifying to the high level of interest in these opportunities, particularly among young unemployed people in Scotland. This exposes the myth that is often peddled in the shipping industry that no one in the UK wishes to go to sea as a rating any more.

Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this Adjournment debate. She is drawing attention to an extremely good example of how co-operation between employers and trade union representatives can achieve these goals.

Katy Clark: Yes, we should pay tribute to all who were involved in the process. CalMac must be congratulated on leading the way in taking on the 10 trainee ratings. I hope that this is the first of many new intakes into the industry in Scotland. The 10 apprenticeships started with a course at South Tyneside college last October. CalMac has committed itself to training 10 ratings through the Scottish apprenticeship route in the year to 2015-16 and to recruiting 45 officer cadets during the same period. CalMac has invested over £7 million in seafarers’ training in the six years to 2012-13, and that must bode well for it when the Clyde and Hebrides ferry service contract is re-tendered, which we expect to happen in 2016. The Scottish Government claim that EU law obliges them to re-tender these lifeline ferry services. That is of particular concern in my constituency, where we have five harbours with ferry services—Ardrossan, Brodick, Lochranza, Largs and Cumbrae—and where CalMac operates lifeline passenger and freight ferry services for island communities to and from the mainland. One of the problems that CalMac and other companies have had is that none of the six Scottish colleges named as partners in the modern apprenticeship framework was able to offer maritime occupations training in Scotland. Indeed, they were unable to offer anything, despite 629 Maritime Apprenticeships24 JANUARY 2014 Maritime Apprenticeships 630 being named by the Scottish Government as the appropriate ships. Yet, despite that growth in the number of ships providers. Therefore, South Tyneside college, which is and, indeed, jobs, as well as the mandatory requirement not a named provider, is offering training for the to provide training for officer cadets, there has been a apprenticeships, which are designed and accredited in decline in UK seafarer numbers and the position of Scotland. Even after extensive representations about ratings is particularly desperate. The number of jobs on this issue, the only colleges that the Scottish Government qualifying ships nearly doubled, but only a couple of say can give accreditation are Orkney and Shetland. hundred of those jobs went to UK ratings. Anyone who knows the part of the world that I represent The main reason for that, of course, is the exclusion will appreciate that those colleges are a very long way of seafarers from employment and equality laws and, in from my constituency and, indeed, a very long way particular, the application of minimum wage legislation. from where a lot of people in Scotland live. Stena Line—the biggest employer of UK seafarers—is The UK Government could usefully engage with the systematically undercut by low-cost operators in the Scottish Government over this. The Maritime Skills Irish sea who crew their vessels as cheaply as possible by Alliance, although it sets the standards, is not formally using loopholes in UK law to recruit Estonians and recognised as the sector skills council for the maritime other non-UK seafarers, paying them below the minimum industry in Scotland. The recommendation of the Richard wage. review commissioned by the UK Government was to Stena is abiding by the minimum wage legislation, abolish the frameworks for apprenticeships in individual and in a recent meeting with the RMT and Nautilus it industries, and it is believed that this is causing problems cited that as a cause of its higher crewing costs. It is now regarding the adoption of a collaborative approach threatening to adopt the crewing practices of its low-cost between the two Administrations. I ask the Minister to competitors. Essentially, the Government need to apply try to see how to improve the relationship with the their own guidance on paying the minimum wage to Scottish Government to ensure that we achieve results. seafarers or face a catastrophic further loss of UK The public sector is clearly leading the way in training seafarer jobs and further damage to the UK maritime the next generation of seafarers, because CalMac is a skills base. public service company, while the private sector has a To illustrate the problem, Irish Ferries operates passenger sorry tale to tell. However, these public sector services that pay seafarers wages as low as $4 per hour. apprenticeships in Scotland took far too long to achieve— Crews live on ships for the entirety of the four-month and of course, if I may say so, they are a drop in the contract, with no shore leave. The routes are from ocean. They will not make the contribution to recruiting Dublin to Holyhead and Rosslare to Pembroke, and the the next generation of seafarers to the industry that is crews are largely Estonian. Sea Truck operates freight needed if we are to avoid witnessing the catastrophic services and also pays below the minimum wage at a collapse of the UK maritime skills base that was forecast rate of $6.06 per hour. P&O ferries, which operates near in the SMarT—support for maritime training—review the area I represent, provides services from Larne to of 2011. Cairnryan, Larne to Troon and Dublin to Liverpool, Delay and difficulty have been features of obtaining and they also pay $6.06 per hour in crewing costs. It is any maritime apprenticeships in England. The number vital that the Minister works with his colleagues in the of maritime ratings apprenticeships being taken up Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure throughout the UK is extremely low. The Merchant that the problem is addressed as a matter of urgency. Navy Training Board estimates that a maximum of To return to apprenticeships, I understand that BIS 12 deck and nine engineering apprentices would enter met the Maritime Skills Alliance earlier this year about the the industry each year as a result of new apprenticeships. apprenticeship trailblazer opportunity, which will supersede It estimates that in 2012-13 there were about 20 ratings all existing apprenticeships in England, and I understand apprentices and no officer apprentices, which is extremely that there were discussions about apprenticeships for disappointing, given that the apprenticeships were launched ratings. Will the Minister update the House on his in Parliament in June 2011. The total number of trainee Department’s role in those discussions? ratings for the whole of the UK is believed to be about 30, although such data are not collected by the Government. UK Government policy is to increase the number of UK seafarers through maritime apprenticeships. At To put those figures in context, in 2012-13 there were present, as I have shown, such apprenticeships are practically 25,700 apprentices in Scotland and nearly 860,000 in non-existent. How does the Minister intend to address England. One step the Government could easily take is that? Will he outline the resources and funding that the to start including the number of trainee ratings in the Government are providing to address such challenges, annual seafarer statistics produced by the Department as the response from the private sector has so far been for Transport at the end of January. pitiful? The apprenticeships with CalMac, which I have The seafarer statistics show that in 2012 there were mentioned, very much came from the public sector. 2,160 officer cadets, which is significantly less than the What is the Minister doing to address the unfair estimated 3,900—or 1,300 per year—that are needed. competition, which I have outlined, that CalMac, Stena The RMT and Nautilus unions are united in their and others that employ UK seafarers—paying them the concern about the future of maritime skills, the falling minimum wage or above—face from those that undercut number of UK ratings and officers, and the ageing pay and conditions and pay less than the minimum demographic of seafarers. wage? What is he doing to address the legal loophole The most significant development in UK shipping that enables that to happen? in recent years was, of course, the previous Labour The issues that I have raised present challenges for Government’s introduction of tonnage tax, which led to not just the UK Government, but the Scottish Government, a significant increase in the number of UK registered the devolved Administrations and the Irish Government. 631 Maritime Apprenticeships24 JANUARY 2014 Maritime Apprenticeships 632

[Katy Clark] We are equally committed to the UK’s tonnage tax regime, which requires each shipping company to recruit What discussions are taking place with them about the and train one officer trainee each year for every 15 officer issues, and if none are taking place, will the UK Government posts in its fleet. That was the first scheme to build in a now start to discuss the issues that affect us all? training commitment, and to pump fresh blood into the Finally, these matters affect many hon. Members’ sector each year. In addition, employers must consider constituencies in which seafarers were traditionally employment and training opportunities for ratings. employed. Will the Minister meet me and any other In an excellent example of industry in the round interested Members to discuss what more can be done working together, the UK Chamber of Shipping, the to address the significant challenges we face in providing National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, the next generation of UK seafarers with a clear, affordable and Nautilus International put forward a proposal earlier and supported route into the maritime industry? this week that would allow ratings to be included formally in the training option as part of meeting the tonnage 2.46 pm tax minimum training obligation. That proposal is currently The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport being given serious consideration by Ministers. Tonnage (Mr Robert Goodwill): I congratulate the hon. Member tax has been particularly successful in creating a competitive for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on securing environment for shipping in the UK and bringing new this important debate, which gives us a useful opportunity investment to this country. It recognises the industry’s to discuss the issues. I was pleased to hear her examples need for certainty on taxation to help businesses plan of how unions and employers are working together in for the future. the common interest. We also support apprenticeships and are training a I should draw attention to my entry in the Register of new generation of ambitious people to become the Members’ Financial Interests and declare an interest as skilled and dedicated seafarers and professionals of the a shipowner. I hasten to add that we only ever employ future. To boost further seafarer numbers, we have British crew members on the MV Coronia. extended the availability of apprenticeships for maritime occupations. Apprenticeships are an excellent entry point As an island nation, we have a long maritime tradition— for young people interested in a maritime career, giving from our Royal Navy and our historic maritime universities them the chance to develop and practise their skills by to the many museums that record our maritime history— working alongside experienced mariners. They also provide but shipping is not just part of our past; it is a vibrant the opportunity to gain valuable qualifications to set and dynamic part of our present and our future. It is youngsters up for their future career. worth up to £14 billion a year to our economy, and it is steadily growing, despite increasing competition from In my constituency, the Whitby fishing school offers abroad. The maritime sector provides employment for a range of innovative training courses, including an about 250,000 people; 95% of goods by volume entering apprenticeship programme for the next generation of and leaving this country are handled by our ports; and fishermen and women. I am pleased that apprenticeships London remains the largest maritime centre for professional, are once again becoming an integral part of the maritime business and financial services in the world. The maritime training offer. industry is vital to many areas of the UK, not least In England, maritime apprenticeships are available at Scotland, as the hon. Lady is well aware, and my intermediate and advanced levels. They cover a range of own county of Yorkshire—indeed, shipbuilding still specialisations within the sector, including engineers, happens in Whitby, the home of Captain Cook, in my deck hands, and officers of the watch in the Merchant constituency—both of which have contributed to the Navy.Launched in 2012, the new apprenticeship framework success of our shipping industry. In fact, gross tonnage was developed for the sector by the Maritime Skills has more than trebled on the UK shipping register in Alliance and issued by Skills for Logistics. In its first the past decade. year, it resulted in 30 new apprenticeships for ratings, If the sector is to carry on thriving and to build on its and that figure is set to grow steadily over the next few position as a global maritime leader, it needs to attract a years, helping to address some of the current skills new generation of seafarers. Historically, there has been shortages in the sector. Similar apprenticeships are available a decline in the number of UK seafarers, as the hon. in Scotland and Wales. Lady said, so the Government have made it a priority to I understand that there has been a specific issue with train seafarers to the highest standards to help reverse the maritime apprenticeship programme in Scotland, that decline. Maritime training is of particular importance where there were difficulties matching apprenticeships to the Government. There will be a substantive item to training providers. Eventually, as we have heard, about it at the next ministerial maritime round table on alternative provisions had to be found on Tyneside. 31 March 2014. Skills responsibilities, including apprenticeships, are devolved We are committed to support for the maritime training to Scotland, and do not fall under the remit of the programme to attract talented and skilled individuals Departments for Transport or for Business, Innovation into the industry. The scheme, which has a budget of and Skills. However, I have made some inquiries and more than £15 million a year, played a key role in understand that the sector is working hard north of the doubling officer numbers between 1998 and 2011. We border to resolve any issues so that the problem does work closely with the Merchant Navy Training Board, not arise again. the Maritime Training Trust, the Maritime Educational In England, developing a framework that met the Foundation and other maritime bodies. We are currently rigorous requirements of our apprenticeship legislation working with the Merchant Navy Training Board to was quite a challenge and we had to work hard with the consider how maritime apprenticeships and the support sector to ensure that the framework complied with the for maritime training programme are aligned. specialised nature of maritime regulations, employment 633 Maritime Apprenticeships24 JANUARY 2014 Maritime Apprenticeships 634 and training. Legislation requires that apprentices are way that schemes are developed, assessed and funded. employed, but many trainees in the maritime sector are In future, employers will have a bigger role in developing treated differently from other apprentices. For example, and assessing new apprenticeship standards, which means rather than being employees, share fishermen take a that the industry will have greater scope to develop percentage of the proceeds from the sale of the catch. programmes that meet its specific needs. Under the requirements of the convention on The hon. Lady mentioned offshore employees and standards of training, certification and watchkeeping the specific issue facing CalMac, Stena and others when for seafarers, trainee maritime cadets must be counted employers undercut pay and conditions. Of course, the as supernumerary and therefore cannot be employed. primary problem to which attention has been drawn is Nevertheless, apprenticeship legislation allows exceptions the national minimum wage legislation. Although employees to that employment requirement in specific circumstances, can bring an employment tribunal-type case, seafarers which are called alternative completion conditions. Those may fear dismissal in those cases. I know that the conditions are set out in secondary legislation and any unions involved have written to the Department for additions must be debated in both Houses. Exceptions Business, Innovation and Skills and copied the letter to are allowed only after thorough consideration. Officials the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. worked closely with the maritime sector to ensure that Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), specific jobs were able to benefit from that exception. who has responsibility for shipping. We all await the The first set of alternative completion condition response to that letter with interest. regulations came into force in May 2012 and included In conclusion, one of the key strengths of UK shipping occupations within the sea fishing industry.The regulations is its people. If we want to maintain our position as a were amended following a second round of debates last global maritime leader, we need to recruit a new generation July to include apprenticeships within the Merchant of people who can take the industry forward. Today’s Navy. A robust case for inclusion was made, and it was apprentices are tomorrow’s leaders. That is why we are agreed unanimously for both levels. However, the need so committed to maritime training and to making high- for regulations meant there was a delay between the quality apprenticeships available in a wide range of publication of the framework and Merchant Navy skilled jobs. That is why we will continue to work with apprentices being able to register and begin their training. the industry to increase the number of youngsters choosing We have also been working to make sure that training a shipping career. meets the needs of maritime employers. The entrepreneur Question put and agreed to. Doug Richard conducted a review of the entire apprenticeship system in England in 2013. He found that current apprenticeships do not always meet employer 2.56 pm needs or expectations. As a result, we are changing the House adjourned.

15WS Written Statements24 JANUARY 2014 Written Statements 16WS

plans for large-scale, locally supported development. Written Statements This local work shows that a top-down process is not needed. Friday 24 January 2014 As the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), who is responsible for housing outlined in his recent answer—17 January 2014, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Official Report, column 694W—we are opposed to top- down Whitehall planning and do not support the central imposition of new towns, however they are branded. Redundant Planning Policy It is the coalition Government’s policy to support communities with their ambitions to deliver large scale local development. So far, our local infrastructure fund The Secretary of State for Communities and Local has unlocked locally led large housing schemes capable Government (Mr Eric Pickles): In 2010, the coalition of delivering over 69,000 new homes, and we are working Government cancelled the Labour Government’s top-down to finalise investment deals for a further 10 stalled eco-towns programme, as part of our commitment to schemes capable of delivering up to 35,000 more homes— localism and to supporting locally led development. over 100,000 in total. A prospectus on bids for that fund Despite a pledge of 10 new towns by Labour Ministers, was published in February 2013. The autumn statement the eco-towns programme built nothing but resentment. committed a further £1 billion of funding to unlock The initiative was a total shambles, with developers locally led housing schemes capable of delivering up to abandoning the process, application for judicial review, a further 250,000 new homes. A further prospectus the timetable being extended over and over, and local inviting bids to this fund will be issued this spring. opposition growing to the then Government’s unsustainable In short, this is a further step in removing Whitehall and environmentally damaging proposals. The last red tape, abolishing top-down planning, and working Administration’s own assessments admitted that only with local communities to build locally supported homes three of its original proposals were viable without public and safeguard our local environment and countryside. subsidy. Merely one of the eco-town proposals were considered environmentally-friendly based on their assessments. As the programme became ever more bizarre—from ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the then Health Secretary wanting to turn them into “fit towns”, to proposals for compulsory fortnightly bin collections or bin taxes in the new developments. No Oil and Gas Licensing gimmick was left unturned. Labour’s eco-towns were to be imposed from above, with the locations determined by a national planning The Minister of State, Department of Energy and statement issued by Whitehall. This planning statement Climate Change (Michael Fallon): I am pleased to inform is still technically in force (DCLG, “Planning Policy the House that I am today inviting applications for Statement: eco-towns: A supplement to Planning Policy petroleum licences for unlicensed seaward blocks, in the Statement 1”, July 2009). 28th new round of offshore petroleum licensing. The coalition Government have undertaken a The UK oil and gas sector plays a vital role in the UK comprehensive programme to streamline and remove economy, supporting around 350,000 jobs and with unnecessary Whitehall planning guidance to help streamline record capital expenditure in 2013 of around £14 billion, the planning system and make it more accessible to and in meeting our energy needs. Indigenous oil and gas local firms and local residents. production supplies the equivalent of about half of the The publication of the national planning policy UK’s primary energy demand. It is vital that we continue framework in 2012 cut over 1,300 pages of policy guidance to do all we can to maximise economic recovery of down to less than 50 pages. We have revoked Labour’s indigenous hydrocarbon reserves. The licensing of new volumes of regional strategies which added complexity areas forms an essential part of our long-term economic and confusion to the planning system, and which suppressed plan by enabling the exploration necessary to ensure we local decision making. The new planning practice guidance fully realise our remaining reserves which could be as website, currently in draft, is replacing 8,000 pages of much as another 20 billion barrels. This will boost impenetrable guidance documents with one simple, concise growth, energy security, and jobs. and accessible online resource. DECC’s plan to offer licences for offshore oil and gas In the context of the cancellation of the programme exploration and production through further licensing and the consolidation of planning policy and guidance, rounds was the subject of a strategic environmental we are therefore proposing to cancel the 2009 eco-towns assessment (SEA) completed in 2011 and the environmental planning policy statement and will undertake a strategic report can be viewed via the following link: environmental assessment to comply with the EU law https://www.gov.uk/offshore-energy-strategic- on this issue. environmental-assessment-sea-an-overview-of-the-sea- We are minded to save, for now, the policies for process north-west Bicester until Cherwell district council has The SEA includes commissioned reports on various an up-to-date local plan in place. This is because, since components of the natural environment and effects of May 2010, the council has made good progress with its previous activities. 17WS Written Statements24 JANUARY 2014 Written Statements 18WS

Following consultation, DECC considered all responses Licensing of the blocks not currently included in this and a post-consultation report for the latest SEA was round may be revisited in the future as more information published. The report can be viewed here: on those blocks becomes available. https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/uk- In addition, a number of blocks may be licensed but offshore-energy-strategic-environmental-assessment- with conditions attached restricting or prohibiting certain 2-oesea2 marine activities. It should be noted that the Offshore Petroleum Production and Pipe-lines (Assessment of In deciding to proceed with a 28th offshore licensing Environmental Effects) Regulations 1999 (as amended) round, DECC has had regard to the conclusions and and the Offshore Petroleum Activities (Conservation of recommendations of the environmental report and Habitats) Regulations 2001 (as amended) variously require consultation feedback. As a result, blocks in the deepest that all major activities undertaken in connection with waters of the south-west approaches are currently not UK offshore hydrocarbon exploration and production being offered as part of the 28th round because of are subject to environmental assessment before consent inadequacy of data including potentially vulnerable can be given for these activities. components of the marine environment. Before any licence awards are made, DECC will A number of blocks excluded from earlier licensing assess whether the grant of licences applied for is likely rounds on the basis of recommendations of previous to have a significant effect on the management of any SEAs are currently not being offered as part of the 28th protected conservation sites. Where such effects cannot round of offshore petroleum licensing. This includes be excluded in respect of any proposed award, a further the blocks in or overlapping with the boundaries of the detailed assessment will be needed to determine whether Moray Firth and Cardigan bay special area of conservation. there are any adverse effects on the integrity of these protected conservation sites. This is required under In addition, some blocks are currently withheld from Council directive 92/43/EEC on this round of offshore petroleum licensing at the request of the Crown Estate as they overlie the Cleveland “the conservation of natural habitats and wild fauna and flora”, potash mine, and some at the request of the Ministry of and the UK implementing regulations. Defence due to their use for intense military testing and Applications in the round will need to be submitted training. by 25 April 2014. 329W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 330W Written Answers to Housing: Construction Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 10 December 2013, Official Report, column 158W, on housing: construction, how many of the Friday 24 January 2014 267,500 units with planning permission that had been listed as having started on site have subsequently been put on hold. [181564] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Nick Boles [holding answer 9 January 2014]: According Council Tax to Glenigan, between December 2013 and January 2014, one site location (representing 30 units) moved from Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for having started on site to being placed on hold. We do Communities and Local Government whether he has not have more detail on the local circumstances behind any plans to require a council to hold a referendum if it this. plans to increase the level of council tax. [184270] However, as I informed the right hon. Member in my answer to him of 16 January 2014, Official Report, Brandon Lewis: I refer my hon. Friend to my written columns 611-12W,the overall number of dwellings classified statement of 18 December 2013, Official Report, columns as ’on hold or shelved’ has fallen from 57,100 in December 101-4WS. 2013 to 55,800 in January 2014, as part of the wider We will set our proposals in a report to the House of trend of fewer stalled sites, as I have outlined in previous Commons in due course, for subsequent approval by answers. the House. Fire Services: Risk Management Planning

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what progress he Communities and Local Government how many and has made on developing integrated risk management what proportion of local authorities in England have in planning guidance since publication of the Fire and place a core strategy that complies with the National Rescue National Framework for England in July 2012; Planning Policy Framework. [183498] when the Integrated Risk Management Plan Steering Group has met since May 2010; and what plans he has Nick Boles [holding answer 20 January 2014]: We to deliver the Fire and Rescue National Framework for have put Local Plans at the centre of the planning England and associated risk management planning. system. Local Plans are the key to delivering sustainable [183948] development that reflects the vision and aspiration of local communities. We are therefore supporting all local Brandon Lewis: The Fire and Rescue National planning authorities in their plan-making work through Framework for England, published in July 2012, made a programme of support alongside the Planning clear that Government did not intend to issue any Inspectorate and Planning Advisory Service. additional guidance in relation to integrated risk Three quarters of local planning authorities have management planning in the light of the sector-owned now published a Local Plan and over half have an Integrated Risk Management Plan Steering Group, which adopted Local Plan. was put in place to take this work forward. Since May 2010, this group met twice under the To place this in context, six years after the Labour chairmanship of my Department: in November 2010 Government’s 2004 Planning Act, by May 2010, only and in February 2011. In February 2011, the responsibility one in six local planning authorities had an adopted for the group was transferred to the Chief Fire Officers’ Core Strategy. Labour’s top-down Regional Strategies Association, and officials from my Department have were one of the key reasons for this delay: adding not been invited to participate in any subsequent meetings. complexity to the planning process and discouraging local decision-making. The Framework also set out that fire and rescue authorities must publish an annual statement of assurance on financial, governance and operational matters including Planning Obligations showing how they have had due regard to the expectations set out in their integrated risk management plan. In John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for May 2013 my Department published light touch guidance Communities and Local Government when he intends on the content of these annual statements: to publish the Government’s response to the https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statements-of- consultation on Renegotiation of Section 106 planning assurance-for-fire-and-rescue-authorities-in-england obligations. [184179] My Department reports on the overall delivery of the Framework to Parliament biennially. The last report Nick Boles [holding answer 23 January 2014]: The was laid in July 2012 and set out that the Secretary of Government’s response to the consultation on the State was satisfied that fire and rescue authorities had Renegotiation of Section 106 planning obligations been acting in accordance with the Framework, and 2012 was set out in the Explanatory Memorandum that he had not taken any formal steps to secure compliance. that accompanied The Town and Country Planning 331W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 332W

(Modification and Discharge of Planning Obligations) (a) Staff seconded into UK Trade & Investment (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2013. This can be (UK) from private sector organisations in each of the found at: last five years are as follows: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/147/pdfs/ uksiem_20130147_en.pdf Number 2007-08 5 2008-09 9 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS 2009-10 12 2010-11 15 Employee Ownership: Cumbria 2012-13 21 (b) No staff are loaned from the private sector, only John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for from other Government Departments (OGDs). Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses (c) In 2012-13, 13 staff were recruited externally by located in Cumbria have adopted employee BIS for UKTI in the UK. Historical recruitment shareholder status for some or all of their employees information for UKTI, and for the 1,100 locally engaged since September 2013. [184398] staff overseas, is not held centrally. Jenny Willott: Those thinking of using the new status UKTI staff work alongside private-sector delivery may seek advice from a number of different sources partners supporting the delivery of trade and inward such as their legal contacts, or a helpline or business investment services. In 2012-13, around 450 people organisation but there is no requirement on any company from private sector partners worked with UKTI to wishing to offer an employee shareholder contract to support British business. We will continue to use a mix notify any Government Department or agency in advance. of public and private sector staff and delivery partners in order to deliver our objectives, including hiring civil Consequently, details of the number of companies servants from the private sector where we need to do so. offering employee shareholder status or the number of employee shareholders are not available at the national or Cumbrian level. DEFENCE Flexible Working Germany Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for for Defence what estimate he has made of the Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has amount payable to the German government on the made of the number of people working flexibly in each relinquishment of his Department’s estate in Germany. of the last four years. [184194] [184234] Jenny Willott: The latest Work-life Balance Employee Dr Murrison: I refer my right hon. Friend to the Survey shows that in 2011, 60% of employees were answer given by the former Minister of State for the working flexibly. Armed Forces, my right hon. Friend the Member for The percentages working flexibly in the years 2012-14 South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), on 10 September are likely to be similar to, or slightly higher than, 60%. 2013, Official Report, column 670W. The survey defines working flexibly as any of the Radar: Hebrides following: working part-time, term-time working, job-share, flexi-time, reduced hours for a limited period, working Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for from home, compressed working week, and annualised Defence (1) when were plans to upgrade the radar in hours. North Uist were first proposed; and what the The Fourth Work-life Balance Employee Survey was anticipated installation date is; [184372] published by BIS in July 2012 and can be found on (2) what plans he has to upgrade radar equipment in GOV.UK. North Uist. [184373] UK Trade & Investment Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence signed a contract in November 2013 for the upgrade of the air defence radar in North Uist, called Remote Radar Head (RRH) Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Benbecula. The contract also included the upgrade of Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff were RRH Buchan. (a) seconded, (b) loaned and (c) hired to UK Trade & Investment from private sector organisations in each of The upgrade of RRH Benbecula to the new TPS the last five years; and if he will take steps to increase radar 77 standard is due to be completed by mid-2015. the proportion of UK Trade & Investment staff hired directly from the private sector. [184278] EDUCATION Michael Fallon: UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) is Children in Care not an employer in its own right and the majority of its staff are recruited and employed by one or other of its Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for two parent Departments-the Department for Business, Education what steps he is taking to ensure parity Innovation and Skills (BIS) and the Foreign and between the new support being offered to adopted Commonwealth Office (FCO). children and their families and those children who 333W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 334W return home from care and their families, in order to industry, academia and charities to consider the best address the underlying reasons why such children came ways to minimise the risk of harm to children when into care. [184312] online. In July 2013 the Prime Minister announced measures Mr Timpson: The Improving Permanence for looked to support parents to install free and easy to use internet after children consultation set out a number of proposals filters which can block access to harmful websites. The that sought to address the issues faced by children internet service providers (ISPs) have now rolled out returning home to the care of their families. easy to use filtering to all new customers and will Following the consultation, we are reviewing what confirm that, by the end of 2014, 95% of all homes with changes may be needed to the statutory framework to an existing internet connection will be required to choose clarify the duties of local authorities with regards to whether to switch on a whole home family friendly children returning home. In particular, we are committed internet filter. The filters are constantly being refined to working with the sector to explore how we can ensure and updated by the ISPs to keep families as safe as that the decision to return a child home, regardless of possible in the fast changing digital world. The ISPs their legal status, is based on an assessment of the have also announced a new internet safety campaign child’s support needs, the capacity of the family to meet over 3 years that will reach out to millions of parents on these needs and the on-going support required to ensure how best to protect their children and make good use of the return home is a success. filters. Children: Internet They have committed £25 million to the first year of the campaign. Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Families: Disadvantaged Education what steps she is taking to prevent young people from being bullied or having upsetting Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for experiences when they are online. [184321] Education pursuant to the answer of 3 December 2013, Official Report, column 650W, on disadvantaged Mr Timpson: The Government believes that internet families, if he will supply further detailed information providers, schools and parents all have a role to play in about the practical support offered by his Department keeping children and young people safe online. to the Department for Communities and Local All schools must have a behaviour policy which includes Government in relation to the Troubled Families measures to prevent all forms of bullying, including Programme. [184192] cyberbullying. Schools have the flexibility to develop their own measures to prevent and tackle bullying, but Mr Timpson: The Department for Education (DFE) are held to account by Ofsted. officials are currently working with DCLG on protocols allowing for the linking of national administrative databases The Government recognises that educating young to ensure that there is an effective evaluation of the people about online safety is key to tackling cyberbullying. Troubled Families programme. As part of changes to the new computing programmes of study which will be taught from September 2014, The Department for Education agreed to support the e-safety will be taught at all four key stages. This will programme financially by transferring funding to the empower young people to tackle cyberbullying through value of £105 million over three years. responsible, respectful and secure use of technology, as Officials from DFE meet regularly with officials from well as ensuring that pupils understand age-appropriate the Department for Communities, and Local Government ways of reporting any concerns they may have about (DCLG) to discuss progress and development of the what they see or encounter online. Troubled Families programme. A key aim is to ensure The new curriculum also offers opportunities to tackle that DFE’s policies and programmes help to deliver the the underlying causes of bullying; for example the new principle goals and objectives of the Troubled Families citizenship programme of study sets out a requirement programme. This includes DFE programmes on improving for pupils to be taught about the diverse national, attendance and behaviour at schools and those on regional, religious and ethnic identities in the United improving local authorities’ children’s services. Kingdom and the need for mutual respect and Young People: Unemployment understanding. T he Department is providing £4 million of funding Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for over two years from 2013 to four anti-bullying organisations: Education how many young people from the Beatbullying, the Diana Award, Kidscape and the National September 2013 intake required to stay in education, Children’s Bureau consortium. While this funding has training or apprenticeships under Raising the been awarded to specific projects to reduce bullying in Participation Age have been unable to find places in general this can, and does, include work to tackle (a) education, (b) training and (c) apprenticeships to cyberbullying. date. [184244] Government Ministers have regular meetings with internet providers, social media platforms and search Mr Laws: Local authorities are required to inform engines on matters related to internet safety, including the Department by the end of October how many cyber-bullying. Ministers from the Department for young people had not received an offer by the end of Education, Home Office and the Department for Culture, September. The Department plans to make information Media and Sport also co-chair the UK Council for on the proportion of young people who did not receive Child Internet Safety (UKCCIS) which brings together an offer available on its website in due course once it has a range of experts across government, law enforcement, completed quality assurance checks on the data. 335W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 336W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the case of each such course what the (a) name of the course provider, (b) purpose of the course and (c) cost Electricity Generation of each session in the course was. [183222]

Sir Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: We can confirm that the following Energy and Climate Change (1) what comparative media training for Ministers, which the Department’s assessment he has made of the difference in cost and Press Office arranged, has taken place at an overall cost payments of the National Grid Company offer of £3,960: payment prize schedule for electricity generation for The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my standardised times and days and to those of the right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr previous merit order schedule; and if he will make a Davey)—July 2012 by Electric Airwaves statement; [183715] Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, my noble Friend (2) what steps he has taken to prevent gaming of the Baroness Verma—June 2013 by Burson-Marstella Ltd payment prize schedule by power station operators; These training sessions covered television, radio and and if he will make a statement. [183716] journalist interviews. Michael Fallon: In its role as System Operator, National No other current DECC Ministers or former Ministers Grid is responsible for balancing the country’s supply have received media training arranged by the Department and demand of electricity second by second and managing in this Government. any localised constraints on the transmission network. Warm Home Discount Scheme One of the tools National Grid uses to do this is the Balancing Mechanism, which operates through generators submitting monetary ’offers’ to increase or ’bids’ to Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of decrease the amount of electricity they produce from a State for Energy and Climate Change what steps he is particular plant. Ofgem places commercial incentives taking to ensure that people with low household on National Grid to ensure it balances the system incomes are able to access help with their energy bills efficiently and provides value for consumers. when the Warm Home Discount Scheme ends; and if Ofgem monitors the operation of the wholesale market he will make a statement. [184246] and the behaviour of its participants, including prices paid through the Balancing Mechanism. In October Gregory Barker: While the current Warm Home Discount 2012, the Department implemented the Transmission Regulations expire in 2015, the Government has committed Constraint Licence Condition (TCLC) in response to to extending the scheme to 2015-16 with an increased Ofgem concerns about the potential for generators to spend of £320 million. We plan to consult on the future charge unduly high prices to National Grid during design of the scheme in spring this year. periods of transmission constraint. This placed a condition The Warm Home Discount is only one element of the into generators’ licences preventing them obtaining an Government’s approach to supporting low income excessive benefit at the expense of consumers during households with their energy bills. Other relevant policies such periods, for example by making dispatch decisions include the Energy Company Obligation—which leads that create or exacerbate constraints, or obtaining an to lower bills through improving energy efficiency—cold excessive benefit from bids they make to reduce their weather payments and, for all pensioners, winter fuel output. Prior to its implementation, the Department payments. published an Impact Assessment of the TCLC, which is As well as consulting on the future of the Warm available at: Home Discount we will also consult later this year on https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/modifying-the- the future of ECO and on a new fuel poverty strategy. conditions-of-electricity-generation-licences This strategy will set out our long-term proposals for Ofgem is responsible for monitoring generators’ helping people on low incomes with high energy costs. compliance with the TCLC, and has reported a positive impact in its first year.

Green Deal Scheme ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Bovine Tuberculosis John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether buildings owned by central or local government are eligible for finance Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for under the Green Deal. [184399] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 14 January 2014, Official Report, columns Gregory Barker: The Green Deal legislative framework 470-1W, on bovine tuberculosis, how many of the 120 imposes no restriction in relation to ownership of property badgers which were subject to post mortem by central or local government, although there may be examination were found to have bovine tuberculosis. other factors which affect a particular public authority’s [183898] ability to obtain Green Deal finance, such as rules restricting borrowing by public authorities. George Eustice: The purpose of the structured programme of field observations of controlled shooting Training and the associated post-mortem examination of carcases was to gather the required evidence to support an Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment of humaneness of controlled shooting, not Energy and Climate Change which Ministers in his to test badgers culled for infection with M.bovis. Levels Department have undertaken training courses; and in of infection were investigated during the randomised 337W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 338W badger culling trial and approximately one third of Fish: Conservation badgers were found to be infected. It has not been repeated during the pilots. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his Department takes to publicise to consumers the list Environment Agency: West Sussex of fish species whose stocks are considered to be at risk. [184385]

Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for George Eustice: The Sea Fish Industry Authority Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what capital and “Seafish” are responsible for promoting responsible revenue spend the Environment Agency has made in sourcing throughout the supply chain. Seafish produce (a) Crawley and (b) Horsham parliamentary Responsible Sourcing Guides and the associated Buying constituencies from May 2010 up to the latest date for Seafood Guide. These guides provide consumers and which figures are available. [183933] the seafood industry with information on the sustainability of seafood, including species or stocks at risk.

Dan Rogerson: Information on overall spend by the Floods: Insurance Environment Agency is not held in a way that can be easily extracted to answer this question. It would be of Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for disproportionate cost to provide the information as Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is requested. taking to ensure the delivery of the Flood Re scheme However, Environment Agency spend on Flood and on time and to plan. [184359] Coastal Risk Management in Crawley and Horsham can be extracted and figures since May 2010 are shown Dan Rogerson: We continue to work closely with the in the following tables. The Capital expenditure is actual Association of British Insurers (ABI) to ensure Flood expenditure while the Revenue spend represents the Re is delivered as per the Memorandum of Understanding. amount allocated. DEFRA officials have regular meetings with the insurance Crawley industry on delivery of Flood Re and the Secretary of Year of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Project spend Amount (£) right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), also meets regularly with senior members of the ABI. Capital The necessary flood insurance clauses have been Upper Mole Flood Alleviation 2010 to 11,600,000 successfully added to the Water Bill and are soon to be Scheme present debated in the House of Lords. Burstow Stream Modelling 2012 45,000 Gatwick Gauging Station Power 2013 15,000 Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for upgrade Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is Gatwick Link Gauge solar panels 2013 2,600 taking to ensure the affordability of flood insurance and prevent premiums from rising disproportionately Revenue until the Flood Re scheme has come into force. Maintenance Crawley 2013 168,400 [184360] 1 Allocated Horsham Dan Rogerson: The proposed approach, known as Year of Flood Re, would effectively limit the amount that most Project spend Amount (£) UK households should have to pay for flood insurance to ensure that people can continue to access affordable Capital home insurance. The necessary legislation is in the Horsham Modelling 2011 50,000 process of being taken forward through the Water Bill Warnham Mill 2010 to 257,000 and insurers have agreed to continue to abide by their present commitments under the 2008 Statement of Principles until this has passed through Parliament and Flood Re Revenue is set up. Maintenance Horsham 2010 to 1374,000 We have published a guide that provides advice on present how to obtain affordable cover. We recommend that 1 Allocated anyone finding it difficult to obtain insurance should Joint constituencies use a broker and shop around to make sure they get the Year of best price for their insurance. There are a range of Project spend Amount (£) organisations that can provide help and advice, such as Capital the British Insurance Brokers’ Association and the National Flood Warning telemetry 2010 to 63,200 Flood Forum. present River gauging maintenance 2010 to 1,300 Sky Lanterns present Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Revenue Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is Nil — — taking to ensure people are better aware of the risks of Chinese lanterns. [183936] 339W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 340W

George Eustice: We are working with retailers and Burma manufacturers to help improve the standards of sky lanterns and to develop a code of practice for their safe Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for use. We will also continue to work with the farming Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Kyaw industry to provide clear advice to the public on how to Hla Aung was raised when a Minister in his use them responsibly. Department last met the new Burmese Ambassador to the UK: and if he will make a statement. [184164] Water Charges Mr Swire: I last met the Burmese ambassador to the Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for UK on 20 January 2014. I last raised political prisoners Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the with him, when we met on 12 December, as I did in my answer of 14 January 2014, Official Report, column meeting with Minister for the President’s Office, Tin 476W, on water charges, if he will take steps to Naing Thein, on 22 November. In my public statement encourage a further reduction in the proportion of on 31 December I specifically called for the release of Kyaw Hla Aung, along with Dr Tun Aung and others households paying for water by rateable value. [184260] whose status as a political prisoner is disputed. I intend to raise this issue again during my visit to Burma at the Dan Rogerson: Any customer can opt to get a meter end of this month. fitted free of charge from their company. We want companies to do more to promote metering to those Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for who would benefit, but some struggling customers would Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it see their bills rise. The Government does not take a his policy that the UK take steps to ensure the renewal blanket approach because circumstances are very different of the mandate of the UN Special Rapporteur on in different regions. Instead, particular attention is focused Burma; and if he will make a statement. [184166] on areas of serious water stress. Mr Swire: The mandate of the Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in Burma will next be considered in March at the UN Human Rights FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Council. The Special Rapporteur plays a valuable role providing independent reporting on the human rights Bangladesh situation in Burma. As the current Special Rapporteur Tomas Ojeo Quintana reported to the UN in October, progress has been made in a number of areas but there Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for are still some very serious human rights concerns. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Independent reporting on the human rights situation in he has had with his colleagues in the international Burma remains very important as the country continues community regarding possible responses by the UK with its reform process. and its allies to recent events in Bangladesh. [184215] EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Hugh Robertson: We are encouraging Bangladesh’s Security Policy political parties to begin a new political dialogue to find a sustainable system for contesting elections that is acceptable to everyone and does not result in an impasse Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for every five years. The UK is working with international Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many partners including through the European Union to help occasions (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department achieve this. have used the transport of the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy since May 2010. [184381] Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he is Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and participating in talks with all political parties in Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Bangladesh to seek a peaceful solution to the conflict for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has used an aeroplane in that country. [184243] chartered by the European External Action Service (EEAS) on one occasion since May 2010. Hugh Robertson: Prior to the 5 January election, the There have been no other occasions of Foreign and UK urged all sides to resolve their differences through Commonwealth Office Ministers using transportation meaningful dialogue and to create the conditions conducive provided by the EEAS or the High Representative since to free, fair and credible elections. Visiting Bangladesh May 2010. on 12 December, the Senior Minister of State, my noble Friend the right hon. Baroness Warsi, encouraged PM Hasina and BNP Chairperson Khaleda Ziato continue Libya the process of dialogue initiated by UN Assistant Secretary General Oscar Fernandez Taranco. We continue to urge Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for the new Government and all parties to work together to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the budget strengthen democratic accountability as an urgent priority for the British Council’s operations in Tripoli was in and to build the willingness and capacity to hold future each of the last two years; and what the British participatory elections free from intimidation and reprisals. Council’s objectives were over that period. [184277] 341W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 342W

Mr Swire: Figures for the grant in aid and turnover of of the either the World Sugar Research Organisation or the British Council’s operations in Libya for the last Sugar Nutrition UK since 2010. two years are given in the following table. The bulk of USA the British Council’s work in Libya is undertaken in Tripoli, but it is also working with partners, to deliver programmes in Zawai, Misrata and Al-Khoms, and is Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for having an impact through countrywide programmes Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions supported by the Libyan authorities. he has had on restarting the processing of entry visas at the American Consulate in Edinburgh. [184224] £ million Grant in aid Other turnover Total turnover Hugh Robertson: We are not aware of Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ministers or officials having any 2011-12 1.44 0.04 1.48 discussions on restarting processing of visas at the 2012-13 1.71 3.43 5.14 consulate in Edinburgh. The British Council’s key objectives for its work in Tripoli over the period have been to support the country’s HEALTH majority youth population to develop skills for employment and gain a voice in shaping the future of their country. Accident and Emergency Departments

Sugar Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of patients were seen in under four hours at (a) type 1 accident and emergency Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign departments and (b) all accident and emergency and Commonwealth Affairs how many times officials departments in each week of 2009-10. [184301] in his Department have met (a) representatives of the World Sugar Research Organisation and (b) Sugar Jane Ellison: The proportion of patients who were Nutrition UK in each year since 2010. [184261] transferred, admitted or discharged within four hours of arrival at type 1 accident and emergency (A&E) Mr Swire: According to our records, Foreign and departments and all A&E departments in each week of Commonwealth Office officials have not met representatives 2009-10 is shown in the following table:

Proportion of patients who were transferred, admitted or discharged within four hours of arrival in type 1 and all A&E departments each week in 2009-10 Percentage of patients who were transferred, admitted or Percentage of patients who were discharged within four hours of transferred, admitted or Week Performance standard arrival (type 1 A&E discharged within four hours of number Week ending (percentage) departments) arrival (all A&E departments)

2009 1 5 April 98 97.4 98.2 2 12 April 98 97.9 98.5 3 19 April 98 97.7 98.4 4 26 April 98 98.0 98.6 5 3 May 98 98.1 98.6 6 10 May 98 98.1 98.6 7 17 May 98 98.2 98.7 8 24 May 98 98.0 98.6 9 31 May 98 98.1 98.7 10 7 June 98 98.1 98.7 11 14 June 98 98.2 98.7 12 21 June 98 98.3 98.8 13 28 June 98 98.0 98.6 14 5 July 98 97.5 98.2 15 12 July 98 98.1 98.7 16 19 July 98 98.2 98.8 17 26 July 98 98.5 98.9 18 2 August 98 98.5 98.9 19 9 August 98 98.2 98.7 20 16 August 98 98.2 98.8 21 23 August 98 98.5 98.9 22 30 August 98 98.6 99.0 23 6 September 98 98.4 98.9 24 13 September 98 98.0 98.6 25 20 September 98 98.0 98.6 26 27 September 98 97.7 98.4 343W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 344W

Proportion of patients who were transferred, admitted or discharged within four hours of arrival in type 1 and all A&E departments each week in 2009-10 Percentage of patients who were transferred, admitted or Percentage of patients who were discharged within four hours of transferred, admitted or Week Performance standard arrival (type 1 A&E discharged within four hours of number Week ending (percentage) departments) arrival (all A&E departments)

27 4 October 98 97.7 98.4 28 11 October 98 97.3 98.1 29 18 October 98 97.3 98.1 30 25 October 98 96.8 97.7 31 1 November 98 ’ 96.7 97.7 32 8 November 98 97.0 97.9 33 15 November 98 97.2 98.0 34 22 November 98 97.1 97.9 35 29 November 98 97.2 98.0 36 6 December 98 96.5 97.6 37 13 December 98 96.5 97.5 38 20 December 98 96.3 97.4 39 27 December 98 96.3 97.3

2010 40 3 January 98 95.5 96.8 41 10 January 98 95.4 96.7 42 17 January 98 96.1 97.3 43 24 January 98 96.6 97.6 44 31 January 98 97.2 98.0 45 7 February 98 96.7 97.7 46 14 February 98 97.2 98.0 47 21 February 98 97.1 98.0 48 28 February 98 96.6 97.6 49 7 March 98 97.6 98.3 50 14 March 98 98.1 98.7 51 21 March 98 97.6 98.3 52 28 March 98 97.5 98.3 Note: There are four categories (types) of A&E department: Type 1 A&E department: A consultant-led 24-hour service with full resuscitation facilities and designated accommodation for the reception of accident and emergency patients. Type 2 A&E department: A consultant-led single specialty accident and emergency service (e.g. ophthalmology, dental) with designated accommodation for the reception of patients. Type 3 A&E department: Other type of A&E/minor injury units (MIUs) primarily designed for the receiving of accident and emergency patients. A type 3 department may be doctor-led or nurse-led. It may be co-located with a major A&E or sited in the community. A defining characteristic of a service qualifying as a type 3 department is that it treats at least minor injuries and illnesses (sprains for example) and can be routinely accessed without appointment. An appointment-based service (for example an out-patient clinic) or one mainly or entirely accessed via telephone or other referral (for example most out of hours services), or a dedicated primary care service (such as GP practice or GP-led health centre) is not a type 3 A&E service even though it may treat a number of patients with minor illness or injury. Excludes NHS walk-in centres. Type 4 A&E department: NHS walk in centre. Source: NHS England

Babies: Screening for congenital heart defects in newborn infants. Research was undertaken at six hospitals to determine this. The Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for UK NSC has reviewed the results of this trial and the Health pursuant to the Answer of 14 May 2013, world-wide clinical literature against its criteria. A Official Report, column 159W, on babies: screening, consultation on the review took place 13 September to when he expects a recommendation to be made on the 13 December 2013. The consultation received around accuracy of pulse oximetry as a screening test for 300 responses from paediatric units, clinicians, royal congenital heart disease. [184006] colleges, professional bodies, voluntary and community sector organisations and members of the public. Dr Poulter: The United Kingdom National Screening Committee (UK NSC) hope to make a recommendation about whether pulse oximetry should be added to the Care Homes: CCTV routine clinical examination of new born babies at their next committee meeting on 12 March 2014. Mr Sutcliffe: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The National Institute for Health Research Health what steps he has taken to explore the potential for Technology Assessment programme have funded a study safeguarding care home residents through the into the accuracy of pulse oximetry as a screening test installation of covert CCTV. [184139] 345W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 346W

Norman Lamb: The Department is not considering Diabetes: Depression exploring the potential of closed circuit television monitoring in care homes. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for We are strengthening the Care Quality Commission’s Health what assessment his Department has made of (CQC) regulatory function and believe that it should the relationship between depression and (a) type I look carefully at how to uncover any type of abuse or diabetes and (b) type II diabetes. [184218] neglect in care. The use of covert surveillance or video Jane Ellison: The Government is aware that being monitoring would require very careful consideration by diagnosed and living with both type 1 and type 2 the CQC, including balancing the need to improve the diabetes can have a huge impact on an individual’s quality of care and the effectiveness of inspection with psychological wellbeing, with depression being protecting and maintaining the privacy and dignity of approximately two times more common in people with service users. diabetes. Nearly one in five people with diabetes have The CQC will have widespread powers to take firm clinical depression. action on poor care and to hold both councils and “The Diabetes in adults quality standard”, published providers to account for the quality of services. by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, Deloitte sets out that as part of their care, people with diabetes should be assessed for psychological problems, which should then be managed appropriately. Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 14 January 2014, Doctors: Working Hours Official Report, column 537W, on Deloitte, (1) whether NHS Protect was used for any part of the internal Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State investigation into his Department’s relationship with for Health pursuant to the answer of 16 January 2014, Deloitte; [184356] Official Report, column 676W, on junior doctors, what (2) on what dates the internal investigation into his course of action his Department would take if an NHS Department’s relationship with Deloitte took place; trust was found to be not complying with the Working and who in his Department was responsible for the Time Directive. [184362] investigation. [184357] Dr Poulter: It is the responsibility of all national Dr Poulter: The Department’s then Director of Human health service trusts to ensure that service rota for Resources was responsible for conducting the internal junior doctors are compliant with the working time investigation, which included a review of the Department’s directive. Where concerns of non-compliance are raised, commercial relationships with management consultancies. NHS Employers will liaise with those involved and The investigation took place during June and July 2010 explore further. and the findings and conclusions were reported to the The trust as the employer, may also find themselves then Permanent Secretary on 22 July 2010. This was an held to account either by an employment tribunal or internal investigation and NHS Protect was not involved. through the Health and Safety Executive if a formal complaint is made. Diabetes Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for for Health pursuant to the answer of 16 January 2014, Health how many diabetes health checks have been Official Report, column 676W, on junior doctors, when carried out (a) nationally and (b) regionally in each of the President of the Royal College of Surgeons’ independent taskforce will report; and if he will make a the last three years. [184383] statement. [184363] Jane Ellison: The National Diabetes Audit (NDA) Dr Poulter: This is a matter for the independent includes the number of patients diagnosed with diabetes Working Time Regulations Taskforce, although the that received eight of the nine care processes as Department expects the report to be provided to Ministers recommended by the National Institute for Health and by the spring. Care Excellence in primary and secondary care. The nine care processes include HbA1c (blood glucose level), Fast Food blood pressure, cholesterol, serum creatinine, urine albumin, foot surveillance, body mass index, smoking and eye Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for screening. The number of people with diabetes recorded Health if he will publish the (a) list of attendees in primary care as having eye screening is not reported and (b) minutes of meetings between (i) Ministers and as the data related to eye screening rendered from (ii) officials of his Department and (A) McDonalds, electronic clinical records was unreliable. (B) Burger King and (C) KFC since May 2010. Participation In the audit is not mandatory. [184379] Information concerning the number of the eight care Jane Ellison: This information is not held centrally processes checks in the NDA for the years 2009-10 to and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. 2011-12, both nationally and at clinical commissioning Details of all ministerial meetings with external parties group level, has been placed in the Library. are published quarterly in arrears on the Department’s The total of the clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) website. The latest publication can be found on the may not add to the England total due to general practice Department’s website at: mapping issues. Participation is not uniform and may www.gov.uk/government/collections/ministerial-gifts- fluctuate within CCGs over the different audit years. hospitality-overseas-travel-and-meetings 347W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 348W

Further details of partners and minutes for the high The total reported investment in mental health services level steering group are available at the following website: for the former Cumbria primary care trust (PCT) for https://responsibilitydeal.dh.gov.uk working age adults in each of the five years for which In addition, I met a McDonalds franchisee in my figures are available is shown in the following table. constituency in relation to a local planning matter. These figures are taken from surveys commissioned by the Department and provide some information covering Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for investment for the working age adult populations of Health what meetings (a) civil servants and (b) strategic health authorities (SHAs), PCTs and local Ministers of his Department have had with authorities within England. The Department stopped representatives of (i) McDonalds, (ii) Burger King and commissioning this survey in 2012. (iii) KFC, since January 2013. [184380] Reported investment for working age adults—NHS Cumbria Jane Ellison: Available records show that the following £000 meetings with representatives of McDonalds, Burger Total reported investment King and KFC took place in 2013: Primary Care Trust 2011-12 2010-11 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 Ministers Civil servants Cumbria 54,632.88 53,014.90 42,638.81 39,963.08 34,488.64 KFC — 1 November 2013 Sources: McDonalds 7 March 2013 24 July 2013 National Survey of Investment in Adult Mental Health Services, 18 December 2013 Mental Health Strategies 2011-12, 2010-11, 2009-10, 2008-09, 2007-08 Burger King 5 July 2013 25 September 2013 The planned weighted investments per head in the North West SHA and England are shown in the following In addition, I met a McDonalds franchisee in my table. These figures are taken from the same sources. constituency in relation to a local planning matter. Reported investments per head of weighted working age population— Keogh Review Committee North West SHA and England £ Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will place in the Library the minutes of all 2011-12 2010-11 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 meetings of the Keogh Review committee held between North 201.6 195.0 191.17 177 162 1 and 6 July 2013. [184386] West SHA Dr Poulter: The Keogh review into trusts which were England 198.3 195.9 193.4 181 169 consistent outliers in mortality data was an independent Notes. review commissioned by the Prime Minister from Sir 1. These surveys were commissioned annually by the Department of Bruce Keogh NHS medical director. The Department Health from Mental Health Strategies and published on the Department’s website. does not have any minutes of Keogh review committee 2. These survey figures were based on details submitted by each meetings. organisation on their reported investment in services and consequently, Medical Records: Databases may not match actual outturn figures reported in annual their accounts. 3. The surveys were non-mandatory and include some estimated data. 4. Data covers services provided for working age adults (aged 18-64). Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Sources: Health (1) whether his Department has identified a National Survey of Investment in Adult Mental Health Services, number or proportion of patient opt-outs for medical Mental Health Strategies 2011-12, 2010-11, 2009-10, 2008-09, 2007-08 records sharing in GP practices at which it considers too high; [184275] NHS England (2) whether his Department plans to investigate GP practices which his Department considers to have a Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for patient opt-out rate on medical records data sharing Health whether he has discussed with NHS England which is too high; and if he will make a statement. the level of information local area teams should share [184276] in meetings with hon. Members. [184299]

Dr Poulter: The Health and Social Care Information Jane Ellison: Any request for information from local Centre (HSCIC) will record the number of patient area teams would be a matter for NHS England. However, objections made at each general practitioner practice. the Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend Where there appears to be a high number of objections the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), is relative to the national average, NHS England and the responsible for holding NHS England to account, including HSCIC will work with the British Medical Association its commitments to openness and transparency, which and the Royal College of General Practitioners to review he does through regular accountability meetings. the data. Mental Health Services: Cumbria NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the per capita spend on mental health Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for services was in each primary care trust in Cumbria in Health pursuant to the answer of 15 January 2014, each of the last five years. [184397] Official Report, column 591W, on NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement, which consultancy firms Norman Lamb: The information is not available in were employed by the NHS Institute for Innovation the format requested. and Improvement in 2012-13. [184327] 349W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 350W

Jane Ellison: The consultancy spend by category for the Government’s action plan on Mental Health, “Closing 2012-13 provided in the previous answer of 15 January the Gap”, published on 20 January. 2014, Official Report, column 591W, was submitted by In the revised Public Health Outcomes Framework, the NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement to we have therefore introduced a new indicator that is the Department as part of its regular procurement specifically about self-harm. Under this indicator, we spend reporting, which is a requirement for all Departmental will measure: arm’s length bodies. The names of the consultancy attendances at Emergency Departments for self-harm per 100,000 firms used are not provided as part of this reporting population; and and NHS England, which hosts NHS Innovation and percentage of attendances at Emergency Departments for self-harm Quality, the successor body to the NHS Institute, has that received a psychosocial assessment. advised that they cannot confirm whether the information is still held without incurring disproportionate cost. This two-part indicator will demonstrate the prevalence of self-harm and also the quality of emergency department’s response. NHS Property Services Self-harm: Young People Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many individuals have applied for the Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for position of chairman of NHS Property Services and Health what estimate he has made of the number of how many such individuals applied having been children and adolescents who have (a) self-harmed approached directly. [184361] and (b) had suicidal tendencies since 2010. [184382]

Dr Poulter: NHS Property Services Ltd received 16 Norman Lamb: Data is not available on the number applications for the position of chairman, which was of children and adolescents who have self harmed and put out to open advert in the Sunday Times on 15 had suicidal tendencies since 2010. December 2013, with a closing date of 6 January 2014. The Health and Social Care Information Centre recently It is normal practice to approach potential candidates published statistics on hospital care for children and directly in order to encourage a strong field of applicants. young people as a special topic of interest. This data As such the Department has been in contact with two showed that in the 12 months to June 2013 there were of the applicants on the basis of their previous experience 13,400 hospital cases where 15-19 year-old girls received in Government organisations. treatment for an external cause of intentional self-harm Each applicant is required to demonstrate their suitability (accounting for 5% of the total cases for this group). through a rigorous, open and transparent shortlisting This compares to 4,000 cases among 15 to 19-year-old and interview process, carried out in line with the principles boys (or 3% of the total cases for this group). of the Commissioner for Public Appointments Code of Source: Practice. This process is being managed by the Department’s Provisional Monthly Hospital Episode Statistics for Admitted Public Appointments Team. Patient Care, Outpatients and Accident and Emergency Data April 2013 to June 2013. Self-harm Tobacco: Packaging

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Health how many people have attended accident and for Health what analysis his Department (a) has emergency due to self-harm in each year since 2010; conducted and (b) is conducting on the potential effect and how many such people received a NICE on the economy of the introduction of standardised recommended psychological assessment. [184384] tobacco packaging. [184272]

Norman Lamb: The following table sets out a count Jane Ellison: I refer the hon. Member to the written of accident and emergency (A&E) attendances with a answer I gave on 22 January 2014, Official Report, ″ ″ patient group of deliberate self-harm for the years column 242W, to the hon. Member for North Antrim 2011-12 and 2010-11. (Ian Paisley).

Percentage of attendances Number of Percentage of with ‘other’ A&E attendances with or ‘other HOME DEPARTMENT attendances Percentage of ‘unknown’ patient accident’ for self-harm attendances group patient group Children: Internet

2010-11 112,669 0.7 4.7 89.7 2011-12 118,935 0.7 5.0 89.3 Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent discussions she has had However, this is a new data collection and it is accepted with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and that there is likely to be under-reporting. Figures are Sport on the protection of children online. [184322] not currently available on the proportion of people who received a National Institute for Health and Care Excellence Damian Green: Home Office Ministers regularly meet (NICE) recommended psychological assessment. Ministers from the Department for Culture, Media and NICE guidelines state that emergency departments Sport to discuss the protection of children online. should refer all those who present with self-harm for a I along with Victims jointly chair the Executive Board psychosocial assessment and this has been enforced by of the UK Council for Child Internet Safety (UKCCIS) 351W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 352W with the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, 2013: 18 students, eleven 16 and under and seven aged 17 and Communications and the Creative Industries, my hon. over Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), and the This does not include sandwich students who undertake Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children a placement at the House as part of their university and Families, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe course, or young people engaged on the Speaker’s Placement and Nantwich (Mr Timpson). UKCCIS is a group of Scheme and the Clerk’s Apprentice Scheme. over 200 organisations containing representatives from Government, law enforcement, the charity sector, academia and the online industry, who work together to help keep children safe online. JUSTICE The UKCCIS Executive Board meets quarterly and Children and Young Persons Act 1933 last met on 26 November 2013. The next meeting is scheduled for March. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Myself, Victims and the Secretary of State for Culture, Justice pursuant to the answer of 29 October 2013, Media and Sport both attended the Prime Minister’s Official Report, column 415W, on Children and Young internet safety summit on 18 November 2013 This Persons Act 1933, what consultation or other steps he focused on the progress made in tackling illegal images has taken on legislating to bring social and electronic online and announced a range of work that the Government media explicitly within section 39 of the Children and would be undertaking to address this problem. Young Persons Act 1933. [183569] Driving Offences: Speed Limits Jeremy Wright: The Government is currently reviewing Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the the existing law on reporting restrictions in criminal Home Department for what reason a person accused of proceedings including how it applies to social (electronic) a speeding offence is not allowed to view photographic media, which will also cover cases involving under-18s. evidence held by police authorities in relation to that In connection with this we have consulted interested alleged offence before deciding whether to contest the parties including the judiciary and representatives of the press. We will publish our conclusions in due course. decision. [184273] Prisons Damian Green: The provision of photographic evidence is an operational matter for the police. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice In cases where the identity of a driver is in doubt the what criteria are used by his Department in the prison police will provide the registered keeper of the vehicle benchmarking process. [183064] with a photograph. The police may not provide a photograph of the driver if one is not available, or the Jeremy Wright: Benchmarking involves developing a driver has already accepted responsibility. benchmark for each different type of prison and applying Police: Desborough it to ensure an operational fit in each individual prison. However, common to all the benchmarks are the requirements to contribute to the additional efficiencies Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for the the public sector prisons are required to make; to deliver Home Department how many police officers are based services which help reduce reoffending; and to ensure at Desborough police station; and whether there are that prisons continue to operate safely, decently and any plans to close it. [184298] securely. Damian Green: Decisions about the most effective Prisons: Civil Disorder use of available resources, including the number and opening hours of police stations, are matters for chief constables and police and crime commissioners. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice on which occasions HM Prison Oakwood has provided tornado-trained staff to other prisons to deal with disturbances since it first opened. [182865] HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Jeremy Wright: Operation Tornado is terminology Work Experience used by the National Offender Management Service (NOMS) to describe mutual aid arrangements across Seema Malhotra: To ask the hon. Member for the prison estate in England and Wales. These arrangements Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross representing the are in place to assist establishments responding to serious House of Commons Commission, how many people incidents, such as acts of concerted indiscipline by aged (a) 16 and under and (b) over 16 years old providing specially trained resources above and beyond undertook work experience in the House of Commons those already available at an establishment. Service in each of the last three years. [183664] Tornado trained staff from HM Prison Oakwood have been deployed only once by NOMS headquarters John Thurso: The number of participants on the since opening and that was on 2 November 2013 to House Service’s work experience scheme were as follows: assist HM Prison Rye Hill in the management of an act 2011: 16 students, fourteen 16 years and under and two 17 and of concerted indiscipline that required extra resources. over The incident was resolved before the tornado team 2012: 4 students, all 16 years and under arrived and the unit was stood down. 353W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 354W

Probation heart of our reformed system. The programme has been engaging closely with the leadership of probation trusts, Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for and we are committed to giving trusts all the information, Justice (1) what steps he has taken to monitor capacity resources and support they need to successfully transition in trusts to manage change and maintain business as to the new system. usual as part of the Transforming Rehabilitation We have developed and designed the new system Probation programme; [182528] through consultation and engagement. This has included (2) what steps he has taken to monitor the extent and working with operational staff from probation trusts to speed of the structural changes which cannot be test the design of the future operational model. We will achieved as part of the Transforming Rehabilitation continue to work closely with trusts to test key aspects Probation programme; [182529] of the new system in the run up to implementation. We also have plans in place to roll out further business (3) what steps he has taken to ensure that the readiness tests at key stages of implementation so that transition work does not become too time consuming we can ensure we are managing the transition to the as part of the Transforming Rehabilitation Probation new system in a safe and measured way. programme; [182530] (4) what steps he has taken to ensure that the Procurement leadership focus is not disproportional on delivering change as part of the Transforming Rehabilitation Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Probation programme. [182531] what proportion and value of his Department’s contracts have been let (a) under the restricted Jeremy Wright: We are working closely with trusts to procedure, (b) by the open procedure, (c) via ensure that transition is managed in a way that enables framework agreements and (d) via a tendering process operational staff to continue deliver on the ground in a involving the use of a pre-qualification questionnaire safe and effective manner. We are committed to giving in each of the last three years. [182694] trusts all the information, resources and support they need to transition successfully to the new system. Jeremy Wright: The information you have requested is not held centrally and to gather it would require The programme team have established a People manually scrutinising the records. Therefore this would Transition Service to support the trusts through this incur a disproportionate cost. process, created a network of trust transition managers and have recently installed a network of change managers specifically to work with local trusts on ICT issues. The Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice programme has regular contact with trusts about how what proportion of his Department’s overall the plans for moving to the new system are progressing. procurement spend for each of the last three financial We will continue to check that the new structures are fit years was spent (a) in joint procurement exercises with for purpose throughout the implementation process. other Departments and (b) shared between different organisations within the same Department group. We are rolling the reforms out in a measured, orderly [182701] way to ensure public safety is maintained. Mr Vara: The information requested is not held centrally Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and to gather it would require manually scrutinising the (1) what assessment he has made of the risks arising records. This would incur a disproportionate cost. from the scale and speed of the Transforming Rehabilitation Probation programme; [182876] Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (2) what assessment he has made of the risks to the for each of the last three financial years how much and Transforming Rehabilitation Probation programme of what proportion of the Department’s procurement was poor design of operational processes; [182877] conducted using e-procurement tools; and what the (3) what assessment he has made of the risks to the value of such contracts was. [182931] Transforming Rehabilitation Probation programme of Jeremy Wright: The data requested are not readily inadequate engagement with trusts; [182878] available and would require each contract manager to (4) what assessment he has made of the risks to the manually go through their contracts over the period of Transforming Rehabilitation Probation programme of the last three years to produce the data. insufficient testing of operational designs; [182879] (5) what assessment he has made of the risks to the Social Security Benefits: Appeals Transforming Rehabilitation Probation programme of lack of resources and preparation. [182880] Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many appeal cases for hearing at Jeremy Wright: We are introducing important reforms tribunals relating to matters within the remit of the to the way offenders are rehabilitated in order to tackle Department for Work and Pensions were waiting to be high reoffending rates that currently see almost half of heard as at (a) 31 March, (b) 30 June and (c) 30 September all prisoners commit further crime within a year of 2013; [175893] release. It is imperative we move ahead now to reduce (2) how many appeal cases for hearing at tribunals reoffending. However, we will be taking a phased approach relating to matters within the remit of the Department to implementation which will enable us to make sure the for Work and Pensions have been waiting to be heard system works. The Department is overseeing the reforms for more than (a) three, (b) six, (c) nine and (d) 12 in a way which ensures that public protection is at the months. [175894] 355W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 356W

Mr Vara: The First-tier Tribunal-Social Security and (2) HMCTS records the time taken from receipt to Child Support (SSCS), administered by HM Courts final outcome but does not hold details of waiting times and Tribunals Service (HMCTS), hears appeals against for appeals to be heard. This information could therefore Department for Work and Pensions’ (DWP) decisions be provided only at disproportionate cost by a manual on a range of benefits and credits. check of individual files. The average waiting time for all benefit types has fallen nationally from 23 weeks in There are always a number of ’live’ appeals at various 2011-12 to 18 weeks in 2012-13. This reduction has stages of processing. ’Live’ appeals include cases which been sustained at 18 weeks in the period 1 April to 30 may not require a tribunal hearing, or which may September 2013 (the most recent period for which statistics already have had a tribunal hearing which was adjourned, have been published). or which requires a re-hearing following a decision at the Upper Tribunal. Truancy: Prosecutions (1) The following table shows the total number of Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for ’live’ appeals against DWP decisions at (a) 31 March Justice how many people have been prosecuted for 2013, (b) 30 June 2013 and (c) 30 September 2013. truancy-related offences under the Education (Pupil ’Live’ appeals against DWP decisions Registration) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2006 in each year since 2006. [181131] Number

31 March 2013 202,397 Jeremy Wright: The number of defendants proceeded 30 June 2013 228,611 against at magistrates court for truancy offences in 30 September 2013 212,358 England, from 2006 to 2012 (latest available) can be viewed in the following table:

Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates court for truancy1 offences in England, 2006-122,3 Offence 2006 2007 200834 2009 2010 2011 2012

Parent’s failure to secure child’s regular 4,439 5,903 7,608 9,314 9,602 10,308 10,588 attendance at school Parent knowing, that their child is failing to 1,560 1,842 1,898 1,397 1,658 2,036 1,773 attend school regularly failing without reasonable justification to cause him or her to attend school 1 Truancy offences under: Education Act 1996, section 444. 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

Youth Justice Board: Birmingham As part of that process we committed to engage with stakeholders to develop and agree the detailed scope of Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the study. On 15 January I wrote to my hon. Friends how many of the 11 members of the Youth Justice whose constituencies lie within the proposed geographic Board for England and Wales have their main residence scope of the study, to set out a brief synopsis of our north of the city of Birmingham. [183624] proposals for the study. The Department has put in Chris Grayling: All appointments to the YouthJustice place arrangements to canvas views on the proposed Board of England and Wales are regulated by the scope of the study work with relevant stakeholders Commissioner for Public Appointments and the recruitment during January and February. At the end of that process of members complies with the Commissioner’s code. Of we will publish the finalised scope. the 11 current members of the Youth Justice Board, I will provide my hon. Friend with copies of the four members have their main residence north of documentation sent to my hon. Friends. Birmingham. Assets TRANSPORT A303 Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assets are classified as held for sale by Transport when he plans to publish the draft scope for (a) his Department, (b) each of his Department’s the A303 feasibility study. [183926] non-departmental public bodies, (c) his Department’s Mr Goodwill: The Department has committed to executive agencies, (d) Directly Operated Railways and undertaking six feasibility studies as part of the process (e) London and Continental Railways Ltd. [184247] of identifying and funding solutions to tackle some of the most notorious and long-standing road hot spots in Stephen Hammond: As part of the Government’s the country. The studies include work on the problems Transparency Agenda information about Department on the A303/A30/A358 corridor. for Transport properties is published on the data.gov.uk 357W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 358W website. Information on the properties owned and leased Driving: Licensing by the Department, as well as surplus properties, is available via the following web link: Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for http://data.gov.uk/dataset/epims Transport what discussions he has had with the The latest data are on the tab labelled “Register of Advertising Standards Agency on counteracting Public Sector Land 17-10-13”. misleading advertising claims for driving licence renewals. [184142] Bus Services: Disability Stephen Hammond: The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) has not consulted with the Advertising Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Standards Agency on this issue. Transport pursuant to the answer of 14 January 2014, Official Report, column 458W, on bus services: The Department is aware of several websites not disability, if he will place a copy of the letter from the connected to the DVLA or the official Government Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State to bus website that are offering services to customers who are industry representatives on audio-visual systems for applying for driving licences. The Office of Fair Trading buses in the Library. [184008] has ruled that websites which charge additional fees and services are not acting illegally. Stephen Hammond: In my answer of 14 January The Government led by Cabinet Office Government 2014, Official Report, column 458W, on bus services: Digital Service, will continue to investigate reports of disability, I stated that my hon. Friend, the Minister of organisations which may be actively misleading users State will write to bus industry representatives shortly about their services or acting illegally, taking swift to encourage further development of more affordable action when necessary. audio-visual systems for buses. The DVLA has published advice on GOV.UK to As soon as this letter is sent, a copy will be placed in remind motorists that GOV.UK is the first stop for the Library of both Houses. motoring services and that other websites may charge additional fees. The DVLA also directs motorists to Cycling: Accidents GOV.UK in all its leaflets, forms and in news stories and its social media channels. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Transport how many cyclists were killed in Greater State for Transport if he will make it his policy that London in (a) 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012 and (d) 2013. people who have recently renewed their driving licences [184358] are not charged when they are required to renew them again when they reach the age of 70; and if he will Mr Goodwill: The number of cyclists killed in Greater make a statement. [184245] London in reported road accidents in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012 were: Stephen Hammond: There is no charge for drivers to renew their driving licence at age 70 or thereafter. Cyclist fatalities High Speed 2 Railway Line 2010 10 2011 16 Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012 14 Transport whether he will comply with the decision of the House of Lords Standing Orders Committee The data for the year 2013 will be available in June that the consultation period on the Environmental 2014. Statement should be extended to 27 February 2014. [184323] Driving Under Influence: Drugs Mr Goodwill: As published in national newspapers Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for and advertised on the websites of both the Department Transport what recent discussions he has had with for Transport and HS2 Ltd the Environmental Statement representatives of the medical profession on the effect Consultation will end on 27 February 2014. of drug driving legislation on patients; and if he will Large Goods Vehicles make a statement. [184082] Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Goodwill: I have had no discussions with the Transport if he will publish the data collected for the medical profession on the effect of the drug driving operator compliance risk score by the Driver and legislation on patients. Officials have met and discussed Vehicle Standards Agency. [184195] the new legislation with representatives of the medical profession, patient support groups, the pharmaceutical Stephen Hammond: To ensure compliance with the industry and the Department of Health. Data Protection Act, DVSA does not currently publish A full consideration of any potential impact on patients specific OCRS data. However, operators are able to will be incorporated in the summary of the two obtain their own OCRS scores, details of annual tests consultations on the proposed drugs and their limits. and roadside encounters on-line. A more detailed OCRS We expect to publish the summary shortly after the report has been developed in association with industry consultation on the Government’s proposed limit for representatives and will be made available to individual amphetamine closes on 30 January 2014. operators in the spring of 2014. 359W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 360W

Motorways: Accidents Motorways: Air Pollution

Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment his Department has made Transport for how many hours UK motorways were of the effect on air quality of the (a) managed closed in part or completely in either direction due to motorway pilots on the M42 and M7 and (b) all-lanes- accidents in each of the last five years. [184214] running aspects of the managed motorway pilots on the M42 and M7. [184220] Mr Goodwill: Over the last five years (1 January 2009 to 31 December 2013 inc), on the English motorway Mr Goodwill: A report which analysed 12 months network, 3,911 Road Traffic Collisions have been recorded worth of data completed under the M42 Active Traffic that resulted in a total closure (all lanes both carriageways) Management (ATM) monitoring and evaluation project or whole closure (all lanes one carriageway) with a total was published by the Highways Agency in 2008 and of 10,413 hours and five minutes impact duration being included an assessment of the impact on air quality in recorded. Chapter 8. Please note, this is the total impact duration (the time The report is available online at: where the capacity, of one or more running lanes, has http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/ been reduced) and not just the time that all lanes were www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/m42activetrafficmanagement/ closed, as this information is not recorded. atm12mthsumrep.pdf The information above is broken down on a year-by-year The M42 is not an all lanes running (ALR) section of basis as follows: managed motorways. ALR is where the hard shoulder is permanently converted to a full-time running lane. 2009—869 Road Traffic Collisions, total impact duration 2,041 hours 34 minutes The M7 is the responsibility of the Department of 2010—821 Road Traffic Collisions, total impact duration Transport, Tourism and Sport for Ireland. 2,123 hours 59 minutes Pedestrians: Accidents 2011—764 Road Traffic Collisions, total impact duration 2,163 hours 49 minutes Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012—838 Road Traffic Collisions, total impact duration Transport how many pedestrians under the age of 16 2,088 hours 14 minutes were killed in Greater London in (a) 2010, (b) 2011, 2013—619 Road Traffic Collisions, total impact duration (c) 2012 and (d) 2013. [184352] 1,995 hours 30 minutes Mr Goodwill: The number of pedestrians under the Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for age of 16 killed in reported road traffic accidents in Transport for how many hours any part of the Greater London in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012, motorway between (a) junction 10 and junction 13 on were as follows: the M1, (b) junctions 19 and 20 on the M4, (c) junctions 15 and 17 on the M5, (d)(i) junctions 4 and Pedestrian fatalities aged 0 to 15 5 and (ii) junctions 8 and 10a on the M6 and (e) (a) 2010 8 junctions 3a and 7 on the M42 was fully or partially (b) 2011 5 closed in either direction as a result of an accident in (c) 2012 2 each of the last five years. [184242] Data for the year 2013 will be available in June 2014. Mr Goodwill: As follows is the number and total impact duration of all road traffic collisions with a total Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for closure (all lanes both carriageways) or whole closure Transport how many pedestrians were (a) killed and (all lanes one carriageway), over the last five years (b) seriously injured in Greater London in (i) 2010, (ii) (1 January 2009—31 December 2013 inc), by specific 2011, (iii) 2012 and (iv) 2013. [184353] locations (both directions): Mr Goodwill: The number of pedestrians (a) killed M1 J10-J13—59 Road traffic collisions, total impact duration 137 hours 10 minutes; and (b) seriously injured in reported road traffic accidents in Greater London in (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012, M4 J19-J20—10 Road traffic collisions, total impact duration were as follows: 14 hours 56 minutes; M5 J15-J17—Nine road traffic collisions, total impact duration (a) Killed (b) Seriously injured 54 hours 46 minutes; M6 J4-J5—12 Road traffic collisions, total impact duration (i) 2010 58 855 13 hours 50 minutes; (ii) 2011 77 903 M6 J8-J10a—16 Road traffic collisions, total impact duration (iii) 2012 70 1,054 61 hours 7 minutes; Data for the year 2013 will be available June 2014. M42 3a-J7—18 Road Traffic Collisions, total impact duration 51 hours 11 minutes. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Please note, this is the total impact duration (the time Transport what proportion of pedestrian fatalities in where the capacity, of one or more running lanes, has Greater London involved pedestrians on a pedestrian been reduced) and not just the time, that all lanes were crossing in (a) 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012 and (d) 2013. closed as this information is not recorded. [184354] 361W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 362W

Mr Goodwill: The proportion of pedestrian fatalities new franchising directorate. In 2013-14 DFT has employed in reported road traffic accidents in Greater London, a maximum of 41 interim managers as part of the Rail which involved pedestrians on a pedestrian crossing in Franchising team; we have reduced these numbers to (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012, were as follows: the current level of 37. We expect to reduce these to 32 as contracts start to expire in early 2014-15 and will Pedestrian continue this trend as we recruit permanent staff. Details fatalities on of the number of temporary staff working on franchising Pedestrian pedestrian Proportion on prior to the restart of the programme are not available, fatalities crossings crossings (%) however, the level was considerably lower than currently, 2010 58 9 16 with less than five temporary staff employed at any 2011 77 18 23 given time. 2012 70 18 26 The Department has also contracted external advisors to provide a range of services to Thameslink, IEP and Data for the year 2013 will be available in June 2014. Rail Franchising including: legal, financial, technical, Railways rolling stock, insurance, procurement, business case and cost management advice. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for All teams within DFT keep staffing requirements Transport what estimate he has made of the proportion under review as part of normal corporate planning. of passenger rail journeys requiring (a) no change of Re-employment train, (b) one change of train and (c) more than one change of train (i) in the last year for which data is available and (ii) in 1994. [184013] Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many staff have been made redundant Stephen Hammond: The following table shows the or retired by his Department and subsequently proportion of passenger rail journeys in Great Britain re-employed since May 2010. [184297] involving no change, one change or two or more changes of train in 2012. Equivalent data from 1994 are not Stephen Hammond: In total 12 civil servants have available. been re-employed by either Department for Transport central or one of its Agencies having been made voluntarily Proportion of surface rail trips involving no change, one change or two or more changes of train: 2012 redundant or retired by the same organisation since Number of changes of train Percentage May 2010. This is a very small percentage (less than 1%) of external recruitment over that period. No change 85 One change 14 Rescue Services: Belfast Two or more changes 2 Note: Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures may not add up to 100% due to rounding. Transport on how many occasions the Coastguard Source: station at Belfast was staffed at a level that was below National Travel Survey safe risk in 2013; and what proportion of shifts this Railways: Employment represented. [184319]

Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Hammond: During 2013 Belfast Maritime Transport how many (a) temporary staff and (b) Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) was staffed below consultants (i) have worked and (ii) are projected to risk assessed levels on 414 occasions out of 730 shifts. work on the (A) Thameslink Programme, (B) InterCity This represents 56.7% of all shifts in 2013. Express Programme and (C) a rail franchising Her Majesty’s Coastguard has recruited additional programme in each year between 2010 and 2015. staff at Belfast MRCC during 2013 to address staffing [184250] levels; as a result Belfast MRCC is now staffed above complement. Stephen Hammond: For the years 2010 and 2011 Where there are specific issues at a MRCC Her there were five individuals contracted to provide key Majesty’s Coastguard is using the current long established skills to the Thameslink Programme team within the pairing arrangements between MRCCs. This enables Department. This number was reduced to two for 2012 each MRCC to be connected to at least one other and is expected to remain at this level through to the MRCC which is available to provide mutual support. end of 2015. Since 2010, there has only been one individual contracted to provide key skills to the Intercity Express Procurement programme. That contract will end in summer 2014. TREASURY Going forward it is expected that a temporary member of staff will be required later this year. Energy Technologies Institute Since the re-launch of the franchising programme and following recommendations from the Brown Review, Mr Byrne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the Department has brought in a range of experienced what his policy is on extending existing financial individuals, with senior level experience in areas such as guarantees to the Energy Technologies Institute; and procurement and commercial negotiation, finance and what recent discussions he has had about extending programme management to strengthen and support the such guarantees. [183779] 363W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 364W

Danny Alexander: The ETI is currently within the (PIP) contracts that they hold. As a result, there is no remit of the Department for Business, Innovation and cost to the public purse, and no comparative assessment Skills. can be made. The Minister for Universities and Science, the right hon. Member for Havant (Mr Willetts), has many Children: Maintenance discussions on a variety of topics related to innovation funding. Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what plans he has to publish Financial Services: Social Networking regular statistics on outcomes achieved by the Child Maintenance Options Service following the Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the introduction of a mandatory conversation with the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with the Service for parents wishing to apply to the 2012 Financial Conduct Authority on updating guidance on statutory Child Maintenance Service. [184320] the use of social media for financial promotions. [184374] Steve Webb: We are continuing to monitor the outcomes for parents who are in contact with child maintenance Mr George Osborne: Treasury Ministers and officials options through the quarterly child maintenance options meet regularly with the Financial Conduct Authority to survey. This survey includes those who have been through discuss relevant regulatory issues. the mandatory gateway. Currently, there are no plans to As was the case with previous Administrations, it is publish these statistics on a regular basis, but we will not the Treasury’s practice to provide details of all such consider this as part of our wider publications strategy. discussions. Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Mortgages Work and Pensions whether he plans to repeat the survey of child maintenance options outcomes. David Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the [184324] Exchequer what steps the Government is taking to reduce the number of foreclosures. [184326] Steve Webb: The survey of child maintenance options outcomes is carried out every quarter. It was published Sajid Javid: Two of the key factors that drive as an ad hoc statistical release on 23 November 2012, repossessions are mortgage interest rates and and is available on the GOV.UKwebsite at the following unemployment. Action by this Government to put the link: public finances on a sustainable footing has supported https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/child- low and stable interest rates. Since the coalition came maintenance-options-outcomes-survey-2012 into power employment has increased by 1.3 million The survey allows us to monitor the number of and unemployment has fallen by 173,000. Such strong children benefiting from the child maintenance options labour market figures have helped keep repossessions service. Currently, there are no further plans to publish down. There were 48,900 repossessions in 2009, compared this data as an ad hoc release, but we will consider this with 33,900 in 2012. as part of our wider publications strategy. The Government has also put in place specific measures aimed at reducing the number of repossessions. These Employment Schemes include temporary extensions to Support for Mortgage Interest, which helps pensioners and those out of work Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for to meet their mortgage payments, and protection in the Work and Pensions which local authorities have courts through the pre-action protocol, which makes it contracts with his Department to deliver back to work clear that repossession must always be the last resort for support; and which local authorities have Work lenders. Programme sub-contracts with prime providers. [184389]

Esther McVey: Nottingham city council delivers an WORK AND PENSIONS Innovation Fund contract for DWP. This is aimed at ATOS Healthcare supporting disadvantaged young people, and those at risk of disadvantage, aged 14 years and over. Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The latest update from Work programme providers and Pensions what estimate he has made of the cost to (30 November 2013) showed that the following local the public purse of Atos using computer equipment on authorities have subcontracts with prime providers: his Department’s premises owing to data protection Neath Port Talbot county borough council issues with the use of their own networks; and what Vale of Glamorgan county borough council comparative assessment he has made of this cost and Blaenau Gwent county borough council the original tender price. [183988] Merthyr Tydfil county borough council Pembrokeshire county council Mike Penning: There have been no instances of Atos using computer equipment on the Department’s premises Cardiff council resulting from data protection issues with the use of Newport city council their own networks on either the Medical Services Brighton and Hove council Assessments (MSA) or the Personal Independence Payment Kent county council 365W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 366W

Medway council Redundancy Pay Stoke on Trent city council Barnsley metropolitan borough council Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much his Department spent Suffolk county council on redundancy payments in each year since 2010. City of Lincoln council [184391] Greenwich council London borough of Bexley Mike Penning: Since 2010 the Department has made 262 employees redundant at a cost of £7.9 million. The London borough of Lambeth redundancies were made as follows: Southwark council Gateshead county council Redundancy Northumberland county council costs as percentage Halton borough council of Total Liverpool city council Period Redundancy Of which Of which DWP (financial costs voluntary compulsory paybill Sefton council year) (£ million) (£ million) (£ million) (Percentage) Cheshire West and Chester council 2010-11 Nil Nil Nil — Manchester city council 2011-12 6.31 6.20 0.11 0.24 Bolton council 2012-13 1.59 0.94 0.65 0.06 Argyle and Bute council Totals 7.9 7.14 0.76 — Renfrewshire council These redundancies have been made as a result of the Slough borough council transformation of departmental business. Redundancies Wycombe district council followed selection exercises to ensure that the Department Southampton city council retained its business critical staff. Separated People: Finance Fracking Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what plans he has for the Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for independent evaluation of the seven projects granted Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to ensure £6.5 million of funding in April 2013 under the Help that the Health and Safety Executive conduct regular and Support for Separated Families initiative; and if he inspections to ensure existing regulations are adhered will set out the criteria for that evaluation. [184318] to in the shale gas industry. [183996] Steve Webb: Evaluation of these projects is critical Mike Penning: The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and we have set aside funding to ensure this is carried uses a range of techniques to regulate shale gas work out effectively. At present, most of the projects activities throughout the life cycle of a well to ensure commissioned in the first round are still in the early that operators manage and control health and safety stages of implementation. The projects have started to risks effectively. This includes engaging with well operators monitor outcomes and we have found some very positive at the well design stage, assessing well notifications case studies but evaluation results, including an overview before operations start, reviewing operators’ weekly of the criteria used, will not be published until later this reports to ensure work on the well is progressing safely year when sufficient evidence has been collected. to plan, and conducting targeted on-site inspections informed by these activities. HSE is also committed to Social Security Benefits visit jointly with the Environment Agency all shale gas sites during the current exploratory phase of shale gas Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work development. and Pensions what steps he takes to ensure that his Department’s contracted providers do not charge for work capability assessments or work programme Jobcentre Plus placements which people do not attend as they are no longer claiming benefit. [183956] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what partnership agreements are in Esther McVey: DWP makes referrals to Atos Healthcare place between Jobcentre Plus and (a) individual local to arrange work capability assessments and withdraw authorities and (b) the local government association. those referrals when people are no longer claiming benefit. There is not a fixed fee for the provision of [184390] assessments. As the number of assessments required by the Department increases or decreases then the payment Esther McVey: We make partnership agreements with made to Atos Healthcare for these assessments varies those involved in the delivery of services. The local accordingly. government association serves a different purpose so whilst we work with them on many issues there are no John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State formal agreements. Districts work closely with local for Work and Pensions how many (a) jobseeker’s authorities and where they mutually consider it helpful allowance and (b) employment and support allowance they put in place informal or formal partnership hardship claims have been made since July 2012. arrangements. [183970] 367W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 368W

Esther McVey: The information requested about the Work Capability Assessment number of claims for hardship is intended for future publication and will be released in due course in line Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work with the Code of Practice for Official Statistics. and Pensions for what reasons Atos is classified as a Social Security Benefits: Disqualification data processor rather than a data controller when carrying out work capability assessments. [184015] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: As data processors, Atos Healthcare Work and Pensions what definition he uses for (a) gathers information when carrying out work capability expectations for sanctions referrals and (b) targets for assessments on behalf of DWP. Jobcentre Plus staff. [183945] DWP is a data controller to process personal information and is registered with the Information Commissioner’s Esther McVey: The information is as follows: office. (a) There are no sanction targets or expectations for number of referrals. (b) Departmental Performance Agreements replaced top-down targets with planning assumptions, introducing a more flexible CABINET OFFICE culture of continuous improvement to drive up individual and organisational performance and providing greater value for money Long Term Unemployed People to deliver high quality public services. Stephen Timms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Office how many people over 25 have been unemployed Work and Pensions what assessment his Department for over two years (a) at the most recent date for which has made of correlation between increased sanctioning figures are available and (b) in each year since 1992. and (a) jobseeking success rates, (b) incidents of abuse [184387] and assaults committed against staff in jobcentres and (c) referrals of claimants to foodbanks. [183949] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Esther McVey: We have made no such assessment. asked the authority to reply. Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2014: John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Work and Pensions with reference to his Department’s have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to ask statistics on sanctions published on 6 November 2013, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, how many people aged over if he will provide a breakdown of those statistics by (a) 25 have been unemployed for over two years (a) at the most recent region and (b) equality groups as proportion of the date for which figures are available and (b) in each year since 1992.(184387) claimant count. [183969] Estimates of unemployment by age are derived from the Labour Esther McVey: The information requested is not readily Force Survey (LFS). The table provides estimates for the number of people aged 25 and over who have been unemployed for 2 years available and could be provided only at disproportionate or more. cost. As with any sample survey, estimates from LFS are subject to a Universal Credit margin of uncertainty. These are indicated by the guide to quality in the table. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of unemployed people aged 25 and over, by duration three months ending November each year, 1992 to 2013 United Kingdom, Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of seasonally adjusted 22 October 2013, Official Report, column 112W, on Unemployed for As a percentage of universal credit, what progress his Department has 2yearsormore all unemployed in made in ensuring that claimants who do not have a (thousands) age group (%) bank account have access to suitable financial products and money advice before migrating to universal credit. 1992 468 23.3 1993 566 28.1 [184375] 1994 587 32.8 Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the previous 1995 538 317 reply I gave her on 22 October 2013, Official Report, 1996 474 30.7 column 112W. 1997 347 27.0 1998 286 24.8 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 1999 252 22.1 Work and Pensions whether he plans to produce a 2000 202 20.5 paper application form for universal credit. [184388] 2001 170 18.2 2002 144 15.0 Esther McVey: There are no plans to produce a paper 2003 130 14.3 version of the application form. 2004 113 13.8 The main route to access universal credit is through 2005 125 14.0 digital channels and evidence from universal credit live 2006 154 15.4 running shows that this is the preferred option for the 2007 143 15.2 majority of claimants. 2008 161 14.2 Support arrangements are in place for those who 2009 182 11.9 cannot access or use the online service. 2010 261 17.0 369W Written Answers24 JANUARY 2014 Written Answers 370W

Number of unemployed people aged 25 and over, by duration three DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER months ending November each year, 1992 to 2013 United Kingdom, seasonally adjusted Unemployed for As a percentage of 2 years or more all unemployed in (thousands) age group (%) Ryan Coetzee 2011 327 20.0 2012 340 22.2 2013 340 24.3 Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Deputy Prime Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, Minister with reference to the Cabinet Office publication the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely special advisers in post, published on 25 October 2013, to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 in what capacity he employs Ryan Coetzee; what his job with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within description is; and what the duration is of his contract. the range 180-220. [184338] Key: *0≤ CV < 5—Statistical Robustness—Estimates are considered precise. ** 5 ≤ CV < 10—Statistical Robustness—Estimates are considered reasonably precise. The Deputy Prime Minister: Ryan Coetzee is appointed ***10 ≤ CV < 20—Statistical Robustness—Estimates are considered as a special adviser under terms and conditions set out acceptable. in the Code of Conduct and Model Contract for Special **** CV ≥ 20—Statistical Robustness—Estimates are considered too Advisers, a copy of which is in the Library of the unreliable for practical purposes House. Coefficient of Variation (CV) (%) Source: Labour Force Survey

WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Friday 24 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 15WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 16WS Redundant Planning Policy...... 15WS Oil and Gas Licensing...... 16WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Friday 24 January 2014

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 331W HEALTH—continued Employee Ownership: Cumbria ...... 331W Diabetes ...... 345W Flexible Working...... 331W Diabetes: Depression ...... 346W UK Trade & Investment...... 331W Doctors: Working Hours ...... 346W Fast Food...... 346W CABINET OFFICE...... 368W Keogh Review Committee...... 347W Long Term Unemployed People...... 368W Medical Records: Databases ...... 347W Mental Health Services: Cumbria ...... 347W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 329W NHS England ...... 348W Council Tax ...... 329W NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement .... 348W Fire Services: Risk Management...... 329W NHS Property Services ...... 349W Housing: Construction...... 330W Self-harm ...... 349W Planning...... 330W Self-harm: Young People...... 350W Planning Obligations...... 330W Tobacco: Packaging ...... 350W

DEFENCE...... 332W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 350W Germany...... 332W Children: Internet ...... 350W Radar: Hebrides...... 332W Driving Offences: Speed Limits...... 351W Police: Desborough ...... 351W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 370W Ryan Coetzee ...... 370W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 351W Work Experience...... 351W EDUCATION...... 332W Children in Care...... 332W JUSTICE...... 352W Children: Internet ...... 333W Children and Young Persons Act 1933...... 352W Families: Disadvantaged ...... 334W Prisons ...... 352W Young People: Unemployment...... 334W Prisons: Civil Disorder...... 352W Probation ...... 353W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 335W Procurement...... 354W Electricity Generation...... 335W Social Security Benefits: Appeals ...... 354W Green Deal Scheme...... 335W Truancy: Prosecutions...... 356W Training ...... 335W Youth Justice Board: Birmingham ...... 355W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 336W TRANSPORT ...... 355W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL A303 ...... 355W AFFAIRS...... 336W Assets...... 356W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 336W Bus Services: Disability ...... 357W Environment Agency: West Sussex...... 337W Cycling: Accidents ...... 357W Fish: Conservation...... 338W Driving: Licensing...... 358W Floods: Insurance ...... 338W Driving Under Influence: Drugs ...... 357W Sky Lanterns...... 338W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 358W Water Charges...... 339W Large Goods Vehicles ...... 358W Motorways: Accidents ...... 359W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 339W Motorways: Air Pollution ...... 360W Bangladesh...... 339W Pedestrians: Accidents...... 360W Burma...... 340W Railways...... 361W EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Railways: Employment ...... 361W Security Policy ...... 340W Re-employment...... 362W Libya...... 340W Rescue Services: Belfast ...... 362W Sugar ...... 341W USA...... 342W TREASURY ...... 362W Energy Technologies Institute ...... 362W HEALTH...... 342W Financial Services: Social Networking ...... 363W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 342W Mortgages...... 363W Babies: Screening ...... 343W Care Homes: CCTV...... 344W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 363W Deloitte...... 345W ATOS Healthcare...... 363W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Children: Maintenance ...... 364W Separated People: Finance ...... 366W Employment Schemes ...... 364W Social Security Benefits...... 366W Fracking...... 365W Social Security Benefits: Disqualification...... 367W Jobcentre Plus ...... 365W Universal Credit...... 367W Redundancy Pay ...... 366W Work Capability Assessment...... 368W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Friday 31 January 2014

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 574 Friday No. 111 24 January 2014

CONTENTS

Friday 24 January 2014

Leasehold Reform (Amendment) Bill [Col. 558] As amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

Deep Sea Mining Bill [Col. 574] As amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

Armed Forces (Prevention of Discrimination) Bill [Col. 594] Motion for Second Reading—(Thomas Docherty)

Maritime Apprenticeships [Col. 628] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 15WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 329W] [see index inside back page]