Ramón Bosque-Pérez Interview

Q: For the beginnings of our discussion, we’re covering a lot of history and a lot of different subtopics during the course of this show. I think it would be helpful for our audience, particularly for people not familiar with the Puerto Rican independence movement, for you to talk about the history of that movement in the 1960s, one of the decades we’re looking at. What kind of political activity was happening in ?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: First of all, it would be good to clarify that the pro-independence movement in Puerto Rico is older than the U.S. presence in Puerto Rico. There was a pro-independence movement when Puerto Rico was a Spanish colony. After the U.S. took over after the Spanish- Cuban-American War, there was still some pro-independence activity in Puerto Rico, but it was repressed, essentially, by the military government that was established in Puerto Rico and by subsequent governments.

In the 60’s there were several organizations that were very active. The Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico had been repressed and almost disappeared. And many of the party leaders were in prison, including . In the 60’s he was still in prison in Puerto Rico. So the party was not as active as before. But other organizations like the Pro-Independence Movement, the Movimiento Pro-Independencia, that was created in 1959 was very active. The FUPI, Federación Universitaria Pro-Independencia, the Federation of Pro-Independence University Students, was very active in the university campuses all over the island; and the Pro- Independence Party that participated in local elections in Puerto Rico among others – other organizations.

Q: It’s nice to have a long version, but is there a way that you can also give us a short version, so we have a couple of options? Maybe talk about the spread of the groups, particularly in the 1960s.

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Well during the 60's there were several pro-independence organizations in Puerto Rico. Probably the most active were the Movimiento Pro-Independencia, the Pro- Independence Movement; the Federation of Pro-Independence University Students, called FUPI, Federación Universitaria Pro-Independencia; and the Pro-Independence Party, Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño.

Q: Can you talk about the aims of the independence movement? Obviously there’s one overriding aim of achieving democratic autonomy for Puerto Rico. But are there any sub-aims of the various movements?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Well there's a variety of pro-independence organizations in Puerto Rico, from organizations that simply participate in elections and they just promote independence for Puerto Rico, to others that in addition to independence promote socialist organization of the country. So we have a wide variety of organizations proposing independence for Puerto Rico and covering essentially all versions of left organizations. BOSQUE-PEREZ: Well in the 60's there were several pro-independence organizations in Puerto Rico. Within the student movement there were very active organizations like FUPI, Federación Universitaria Pro-Independencia, the Federation of Pro-Independence University Students at the university; the Movimiento Pro-Independencia, the Pro-Independence Movement; and the Pro-Independence Party, Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño. Those were probably the most active organizations working at different schools and universities.

Q: Did the movement have a sense about it at the time that was close to achieving its goals? Or were there, say, a large number of individuals involved, more so than there had been in other decades? Where was the movement in the 1960s?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: There was a reactivation of the movement, because it had been repressed during the 50's. Some of the organizations of the 50’s almost disappeared or were reduced in numbers and influence, like the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico for instance. During the 60’s the pro-independence movement experienced growth and also diversification. Many activities emerge from the movement, within the student movement in connection with the labor movement. So there was growth. There was expansion of activities. The movement also organized in the U.S., in U.S. cities where there was a Puerto Rican presence. There was an international presence in organizations, student organizations - labor organizations going to the United Nations, for instance, to the Decolonization Committee to present the case of Puerto Rico. So there was an expansion, a considerable expansion of the movement, during the 60’s.

Q: Tell me about what happened. You mentioned that during the 1950s the movement had been repressed. Can you give us a capsule summary of what had happened in the previous decade?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Well for instance there was what was called La Mordaza, a gag law that was approved in Puerto Rico - a similar to the Smith Law in the U.S. - that made it a felony, essentially, any expression, written or verbal expression against the government. So several leaders of the Nationalist Party and other groups were sent to prison simply for their expressions in favor of independence, or condemning the presence of the U.S. in Puerto Rico. So there was a very strong oppression against the movement at all levels, and several organizations were weakened as a result of that.

Q: So as you say, by the time the 1960s rolled around, we’re starting to see street demonstrations which had not been seen prior?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Yes, that’s right – similar for instance to the activation of the student movement and the civil rights movement in the U.S. And there was influence coming from the student movement and the civil rights movement in the U.S. that exerted influence, particularly in the student movement in Puerto Rico. But also the Cuban Revolution was very influential in organizations in Puerto Rico, as well as the movement towards independence in different parts of Africa and other countries.

Q: And since we won’t hear my questions, I think we missed the point about street demonstrations starting to swell. Can you talk about that?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Right and there were growing street demonstrations during the 60’s, also in the early 70’s. For instance, one very strong campaign was against the draft. Puerto Ricans, as U.S. citizens, are forced to participate in the military. So even though we don't have direct representation in Congress, we are supposed to register and participate in the armed forces of the U.S. So there was a lot of resistance to that particular situation. And of course the war in Vietnam was going on at that time.

Q: If we could fast-forward to several decades later: when I talked to you on the phone, you mentioned the FBI files that you had seen, covering the activity of this time that were of course secured by Representative Serrano. Can you talk about his role in securing the files?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Yes. Mr. Serrano is part of the Appropriations Committee and during a budget hearing in Congress, he questioned a former FBI Director, Louis Freeh, about the existence of FBI files on Puerto Rican organizations and individuals - surveillance files and investigation files. I think that the FBI Director surprised many people when he admitted that yes, there were huge amounts of documents on Puerto Rican organizations and individuals, and he offered to release those documents to Mr. Serrano as part of that initiative.

Q: It struck me as interesting in an interview with you that I read: Louis Freeh, who was at the time the Director of the FBI, had said several very candid things about what was in the files, about FBI conduct at the time. Can you recall any of those comments he made?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: He admitted that the FBI engaged in illegal activities, essentially - and that the agency did a lot of damage to private citizens, to organizations and to the agency itself by engaging in those activities. So he was very open in terms of that and he admitted the wrongdoing of many of the activities, particularly referring to the 60’s and the COINTELPRO operations.

Q: Again, just because we won’t hear my question: if there's a way you can build in “the FBI Director admitted that” just as preface for the audience.

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: After being questioned by Representative Serrano, FBI Director Louis Freeh admitted that the FBI had engaged in wrong doing - in a lot of file compiling and activities that caused a lot of damage to private citizens, to organizations and even to the agency – to the image of the agency. And he was referring particularly to the 60’s and to the COINTELPRO operations.

Q: Tell us about COINTELPRO as a program. What sort of activities was the FBI conducting in the 1960s and 70s under the auspices of this program?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Well the COINTELPRO program is probably one of the best known because many documents emerged in the 70’s about that particular operation. I'm sure that that's not the only operation that was conducted by the FBI before or after that particular program. But COINTELPRO started in 1966 and it was an operation essentially against the Communist Party of the U.S. The second target of COINTELPRO was the Puerto Rican independence movement, particularly 2 organizations: the Pro-Independence Movement and the Federation of Pro- Independence University Students, FUPI and MPI. That was in August 1960 that the FBI decided to expand COINTELPRO to Puerto Rican organizations.

Q: A lot of people who have heard the term may only think that COINTELPRO was surveillance, and it certainly was surveillance. But were there other activities conducted under the umbrella of this program? Can you talk about the broad swath of activities?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: One thing that distinguishes COINTELPRO operations from other types of activities conducted by the FBI is that this is what is called “aggressive intelligence.” It wasn’t only surveillance. It wasn’t only putting together reports on organizations, investigating individuals. It went beyond that, far beyond that. It was aggressive intelligence in the sense that it tried to disrupt the activities of the organizations. It tried to damage the image of leaders of organizations. And it went as far as plotting against these persons and these organizations, trying to break them.

Q: So it sounds like there was definitely a political agenda driving the operation, more so than it being operation in law enforcement. Would you say that’s the case?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: It was certainly far beyond law enforcement. It was the practice of - clearly the practice of the political police. It was an operation that seemed to single out so many organizations and tried to disrupt their activities, independent of if those organizations were engaging or not in illegal activities. The fact is that when you examine the files, the COINTELPRO files for the Puerto Rican independence movement, you see that the activities they were conducting were in the open - were legal activities: publishing newspapers, organizing, giving speeches, things like that. And the actions of the FBI were to disrupt that kind of activity.

Q: You have quite a few files from this period in your possession. You have been able to look through a lot of this material. Can you give us a sense of what sort of - it certainly sounds like this was a politically driven program on the part of the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover. What sort of ideology was driving this on his part? What was Hoover trying to accomplish with COINTELPRO?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: We have files on COINTELPRO. We have files on other previous activities of the FBI and activities that were after COINTELPRO. And essentially, it was a campaign to get rid of left organizations - any organization that even remotely suggested being socialist or sympathizer of Marxism; and in the case of Puerto Rico, any organization that was promoting independence for Puerto Rico. It didn’t matter if it was socialist or not. In the case of Puerto Rican organizations, simply by assuming a pro-independence stance - that was enough for the FBI to consider it an enemy.

Q: How about the scale of what happened in Puerto Rico: do you have a sense of the number of individuals who were surveilled? How widespread was this?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: It’s difficult to establish how broad the programs were, but a few examples suggest that it was quite broad - that it reached everywhere on the island. That it reached many activities at the school level, labor organizations, universities, even government agencies. For instance, when I was a high school student, the FBI opened a file on me. So I was 16, 17 years old, in a small school in a rural area Puerto Rico and the FBI decided, the local office decided, that I was dangerous enough to have a file on me. So that gives you an idea - that if a high school student in a small, rural school was the target of that kind of activity, how many student leaders, labor union leaders, community leaders in urban areas like in San Juan, the capital of Puerto Rico, were also the target? I'm sure that tens of thousands of persons.

Q: It’s quite a remarkable story. Have you had a chance to look at those files from that time period when they were surveilling you as a high school student?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: I, before the Serrano initiative, I got these files from the FBI. Many people have requested files in Puerto Rico, and I did that in 1997. I requested my files and I received a small volume of a little more than 100 pages. But it's quite fascinating, in terms of the things that they were observing

Q: What sort of things had caught their interest?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Well, essentially my activities as a student. I was part of student councils and local pro-independence organizations in school, and that got their attention. I was also - I expressed myself as a student against the war in Vietnam and against the draft - the application of military service to Puerto Rican youth. I was, you know, vocal in terms of that, expressing my opinion, and that certainly got the agency’s attention.

Q: You mention that the police had files on others, that Governor Marín also had extensive files kept on him that you have in your possession. Can you talk a little about the nature of the information gathered about Marín and the length of time that they were interested in him as a target of information-gathering?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: We have files on two important Puerto Rican leaders of the 20th century. One is Luis Muñoz Marín, who was the first elected governor of Puerto Rico, the founder of the present arrangement between the U.S. and Puerto Rico. Before he became governor of Puerto Rico, he had a pro-independence position and he supported campaigns for the liberation of political prisoners. So the FBI kept a political file on him for many years as a suspected communist. That was the label that was used against Muñoz even though he really wasn't a communist. He actually became a friend of the U.S. and, as I said, the first elected governor in 1948. And after that he was governor for 4 terms in a row until the 60’s. But other political leaders in Puerto Rico like Pedro Albizu Campos the nationalist leader, was also a target of this kind of surveillance. The FBI file on Pedro Albizu Campos goes back to the mid – 30’s, 1936, and it's very detailed in the information that it collects on Pedro Albizu Campos.

Q: Do you have a sense from looking at the files of not only those individuals but others surveilled by the FBI, that Hoover was seeking information that could be used to compromise people politically? We’ve certainly heard that Hoover did that with the civil rights movement, for instance, tried to get that kind of information on people so they could be publicly discredited. Were similar kinds of tactics being used in Puerto Rico?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: In Puerto Rico tactics that are similar to those that were used against the civil rights movement in the US were also used. For instance, you see in the Luis Muñoz Marín file, you see information saying that he drinks. That he's not responsible with his personal finances, that kind of information. In the case of Pedro Albizu Campos for instance, you can even see medical records when he was hospitalized in for a long period of time. There are copies of the notes by doctors and nurses: daily temperature readings, blood pressure, and that kind of detail is part of the record. At one point, there was a memo from Hoover to the San Juan field office instructing them to collect personal information on the main leaders of the pro-independence movement, saying that essentially a psychological profile of all those leaders was needed by the agency: their weaknesses, financial matters, family matters, criminal record if there was any, work and you name it.

Q: One thing that struck me: I had a chance to look at a limited number of files from that time period, from other operations. The quality of the information seems to be specious in a lot of cases. It seems that there was a very broad net thrown, and they were not very discriminating about what was accurate and what was not. Do you find that to be the case with the files that you’ve reviewed?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: I think that the information that is collected and that goes into the files - it could be any kind of information. There is no selectivity. There is – an informer could say that, for instance, this is one specific case, one real example, that Luis Muñoz Marín was a drunk and a drug addict and that would go straight into the file - saying something like “reliable sources say that Luis Muñoz Marín is such and such.” That is part of a report in 1943 when was Luis Muñoz Marín was President of the Puerto Rican Senate, for instance. Clearly false information gets into the files without any kind of criteria for selecting information.

Q: One thing that I found very surprising, when I read an interview that someone had conducted with you, is that a lot of the files seemed to point to a custodial detention program that Hoover had in mind in case of a national emergency. There was a list of names drawn up. Can you talk about what the files revealed about that program?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: One of the things that emerged from several of the files on individuals and organizations is that Puerto Ricans were considered for the custodial detention program - a program that kept a list of people that would be detained in the case of a national emergency. So during the 40’s, the 1940’s, Luis Muñoz Marín - even him - was part of the custodial detention list. In the case of an emergency, he would be detained, together with many other Puerto Rican leaders and people in the U.S., of course. That program evolved and had several names during the 50’s and the 60’s and the 70’s. After custodial detention it was called “security index.” And after being called “security index,” it was called “administrative index.” But essentially it was the same type of program. It was a matter of keeping a list of suspicious people that should be detained in the case of an emergency. Many Puerto Rican leaders of pro-independence organizations and other organizations in Puerto Rico and in the U.S. were kept on those lists.

Q: I’ve only recently heard of this program, this list. From what you know about it, does it have its conceptual beginnings back with the Japanese internments? Were they looking at something like that conceptually? In the event of an emergency was that the end game scenario?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: The first few references that I have seen to custodial detention and similar programs go back to the mid-30’s, even before the war. So essentially, people that were considered potential enemies of the U.S. government were kept on those lists for - in case of emergency. In some cases, the FBI Director Hoover managed to get some kind of authorization from the Justice Department, from the Attorney General. But in some other cases, that activity was simply kept secret because there was no legal authorization to conduct that kind of operation. Still it existed from the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and 70’s, at least.

Q: Can you talk about the impact of various COINTELPRO operations in the lives of individual Puerto Rican activists? If you have anecdotes you can relate, how did this affect people on the ground, in real time, during those years?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: In the case of COINTELPRO, which as I mentioned is a quite aggressive type of program that intended to disrupt the activities of organizations and persons, it certainly was able to cause a lot of damage to organizations and to persons. I have seen reports where, for instance, the FBI agent from San Juan reporting to Washington, to some extent celebrates that a pro-independence leader had a stroke, a heart attack - saying that all the tensions created by activities related to the program certainly didn’t help to alleviate his stress. Insinuating that, partially, this was responsible for the stroke that the person had.

In other cases, there’s evidence of information that was planted to create internal conflict within organizations, or between leaders of the youth organizations and the other organizations. So there were many activities that certainly caused a lot of damage to individuals and to the organizations.

Q: You had mentioned that concurrent with the FBI intelligence-gathering during the 1960s, the Puerto Rican police had their own intelligence-gathering apparatus working. Can you give us a sense of how extensive that was, comment on that?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: At the same time that the FBI was engaging in this file compiling operations and aggressive intelligence, also the local police was conducting similar activities - probably less refined, maybe less professional in some ways, but certainly quite extensive also. The Puerto Rican police - there is documentation that shows that as early as the 1930’s - was engaging in file compiling, compiling secret files by - for instance the local Intelligence Division, as it was called in the late 60’s and 70’s and 80’s - information on the organizations, information on individuals. And when you contrast FBI files and police files, you see that there is a lot of communication between the agencies. And you see a lot of coordination between the two. And of course I have concluded that the operations by the police were essentially started in response to FBI requests and guidance.

Q: When we spoke on the phone, you had mentioned that when the police intelligence initiative had ended its reports, individual citizens in Puerto Rico were able to get those files. Can you tell me about how that came to pass?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: In the 1980’s, the late 80’s, there was a scandal in Puerto Rico, because it became known that the police had this special division called the Intelligence Division, that was in charge of keeping those secret files on individuals, on their political activities and associations. There was an investigation by the Puerto Rican Civil Rights Commission. There were several cases taken to the courts in Puerto Rico. And there was finally a decision by the Puerto Rico Supreme Court saying that this was illegal, and that it was against the norms of the Constitution of Puerto Rico, that it was violating basic rights of certain citizens just based on their political views - and that that practice needed to be stopped. Essentially the court decided that all the files were supposed to be returned to the victims of that surveillance. And in the 1990’s, the early 90’s, thousands of Puerto Ricans received their files.

Q: What do you think are the major lessons that can be learned from this period? One of the things we’re looking at in the film is that we’re in a new era now, where there are additional congressional pushes for more FBI power and more legislation advocating surveillance and so forth. As this country moves forward and creates more of this legislation, what kind of lessons should we be learning from periods like the COINTELPRO era?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: I think that some of the lessons of COINTELPRO or previous operations, file compiling and surveillance operations of previous decades and even after COINTELPRO, clearly show that it’s quite easy for these kinds of activities to get out of hand - for the agencies to lose control of those activities and to go far beyond. It’s amazing how many resources can go into that, in terms of hours put in by human beings that are working on that, that are being paid by tax money. We are talking about thousands of hours, many years of this kind of activity, resources that are being devoted to that kind of activity when crime rates are increasing, for instance. And that was the specific case of Puerto Rico during the 60’s and the 70’s. Crime rates in Puerto Rico were increasing constantly. The drug trafficking problem, which is a huge problem right now, was increasing at that moment while the police and the FBI were devoting so many resources, human resources, monetary resources to political policing operations. Crime was simply getting out of hand.

So I see that it’s so easy to be in a crisis of priorities. And that that can happen again when the proper balances are not applied. Security of any particular country - it’s a legitimate concern. The people should be able to live in peace and security, to not to be afraid of attacks against their cities…but using that as an excuse to expand powers that have been used before to deny basic rights to the people themselves, it’s simply absurd.

Q: I want to go back to, a couple of points, to cover them again. One gap that I think we have skipped over: could you just give us a short summary statement about the fact that here at Hunter you have come into the possession of a large number of FBI documents? Just give us a topic sentence.

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: After Congressman Serrrano was able to secure from the FBI the release of many thousands of documents, we at the Centro, at the Center for Puerto Rican Studies, made contact with the office of Congressman Serrano, and we offered help with the files. I had been working with that same type of document for several years before as a researcher doing - working on the politics of human rights in the Puerto Rican context, and specifically political persecution historically in Puerto Rico. So there was – we reached an agreement between the office of Congressman Serrano and the Center for Puerto Rican Studies by which he would send all the files that he’s receiving from the FBI to the Centro. We keep the files here. We are processing them. We are producing a detailed inventory of all the files and preparing them for public release. What we plan to do is to create a website where we are going to start publishing the files. We are starting with Luis Muñoz Marín and Pedro Albizu Campos’ files next spring – the spring of 2004. We plan to have the files accessible to the public, to students, to teachers, to community people - the general public. The files, together with research tools, introductions, notes, chronologies - several resources that will help the user understand and contextualize the files.

Q: A final question about the files themselves. In the files that you’ve had a chance to examine is there any pretense made on the part of the FBI that they were conducting a criminal investigation? Or do the files read as purely political investigations?

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: When you examine the files and when you see what we have received so far - we have received 120,000 pages so far - what is amazing is that 94 – 95% of all of the documentation belongs to legal organizations working in the open, engaging in legal political activities that are supposed to be protected by the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and in the case of Puerto Rico, by the Puerto Rican Constitution, that has a similar Bill of Rights. So a very small percentage of the documents pertain to organizations that were working not in the open, conducting activities that could be considered illegal. But for the vast majority, let’s say 94 – 95 % of the documents pertain to organizations that are doing absolutely legal activities.

Q: I think I’ve hit everything I need, but I’d like to leave you an opportunity to cover anything you’d like to add.

BOSQUE-PÉREZ: Well, one issue that is not clear at this point is to what extent federal agencies, and the FBI itself, is still conducting similar activities in Puerto Rico. There are still many organizations that were under surveillance by the FBI in the 60’s, the 70’s, the 80’s, that still exist and that still promote independence of Puerto Rico and others that promote other changes. To what extent those organizations are still the victims of that type of surveillance and activities - trying to disrupt their activities - that’s the big question. And we will probably not know until a few decades from now when new documents are released.