Standing Committee on Official Languages

LANG ● NUMBER 138 ● 1st SESSION ● 42nd PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, April 4, 2019

Chair

The Honourable Denis Paradis

1

Standing Committee on Official Languages

Thursday, April 4, 2019

we witnessed ups and downs in the respect afforded the Official Languages Act. ● (1105) [Translation] Some of the things we propose are, in fact, not new. The idea of The Chair (Hon. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.)): creating an official language minority communities advisory Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), we are continuing our study of committee already existed in 1980. That year, our organization the Modernization of the Official Languages Act. signed an agreement with the Clark government to set up a joint committee. As for the idea of creating an official languages tribunal, This morning we are pleased to welcome our witness Mr. Jean the federation put that forward in 1988. Johnson, President of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, or FCFA. The FCFA is not the only one behind this bill. It truly is the result Good morning, Mr. Johnson. of the thinking done by the vital forces of the francophonie on this Mr. Jean Johnson (President, Fédération des communautés matter. It is the proposal put forward by our communities to francophones et acadiennes du Canada (FCFA)): Good morning. modernize the act. The Chair: We also have with us Mr. Alain Dupuis, Director General of the FCFA. I want to thank you for the serious attention with which you received and studied this draft bill. I note that two suggestions, in Good morning and welcome, Mr. Dupuis. particular—the designation of a central agency and the creation of an Mr. Alain Dupuis (Director General, Fédération des commu- official languages tribunal—were thought about and debated at the nautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada (FCFA)): Good meetings of this committee. morning, and thank you. The Chair: As is our usual practice, you will have about ten I will thus use the time I have today to discuss a topic that has not minutes for your presentations. We will then have questions and been debated as much, and that is Part VII and the obligation to take comments with the members of the committee. positive measures.

Mr. Johnson, you have the floor. You are no doubt aware of the saga of the Alliance nationale de Mr. Jean Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Chair. l'industrie musicale, one of our community's organizations, follow- ing a complaint tabled with the Official Languages Commissioner in Ladies and gentlemen, members of the committee, first I want to 2013. thank you for having invited us to appear today, at an important moment for us. This complaint involved a breach of the CRTC's duty to inform A month has gone by since the FCFA unveiled a bill to modernize our communities of the way they could be impacted by a decision the Official Languages Act. We spent this month clarifying specific involving the commission and SiriusXM. Five years later—an points in the document; meeting with parliamentarians and unreasonable delay —the commissioner found in favour of the government representatives to speak to them about our proposal; Alliance and ruled that the CRTC had not respected the obligations discussing the changes we were putting forward; and following the set out in Part VII. conversations and debates created by our action. We are proud of our work. It is the result of an effort that involved One year later, there was a dramatic twist. The Commissioner of not only the FCFA and its member organizations, but also a variety Official Languages annulled his decision in a new report, and of partner institutions, citizens and thinkers within our communities. deemed the Alliance's complaint to be unfounded. Contributions came from everywhere. This includes the many comments gathered by your colleagues at the Standing Senate What happened between the two reports? A Federal Court ruling Committee on Official Languages, from young people and called into question a decade and a half of the interpretation of researchers, as well as those made to your committee. We also federal institutions' obligations to take positive measures to support relied on the 45 years of existence of the FCFA, years during which the development of our communities. 2 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

Following this decision, the commissioner decided to change the nities. Finally, those provisions would also require that responsi- way he investigated complaints on Part VII. This change means that bilities with respect to accountability be outlined. it is now very difficult to have a complaint recognized as legitimate. No matter what we think of the commissioner's decision to change I'd like to emphasize that these proposals echo what you have the way he investigates those complaints, the result remains the heard from various witnesses. Language clauses, clearly setting out same. The Federal Court decision opened a giant gap in Part VII of the obligations of certain key departments, the duty to consult, the the Official Languages Act. creation of an advisory council, have all been brought up previously before this committee. Our draft bill fills the gap. The Federal Court ruled that the wording of section 41 did not specify the type of positive measures Since we unveiled our draft bill, not a week goes by without federal institutions should take. Our draft clarifies this wording by events providing further proof of the crying need to modernize this spelling out the obligation to take the necessary positive measures to law. The need is timely and there is a broad consensus on the issues. enhance the vitality of our communities and support their It's time to act. development. You have before you the first comprehensive proposal in three decades for a complete, in-depth modernization of the Official Section 43 of our draft bill suggests further structure for the duty Languages Act. As I said in the beginning of my presentation, this is some federal institutions have to take positive measures. These are, not just a simple brief. It is a project that issues from all of our more specifically, departments that are more closely related to the communities. It distills the thoughts of hundreds of groups, citizens, development of our communities, like Canadian Heritage, Employ- and researchers. ment and Social Development Canada, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, and Statistics Canada. ● (1110) The new Part Vll we are proposing also codifies the obligation, for We respectfully recommend that this committee append this federal institutions, to consult official language minority commu- proposal in its entirety to the final report it will submit to Parliament. nities. It defines what effective consultations should look like. It Thank you for your attention. describes how they should differ from the simple information sessions to which federal institutions invite us too often. Finally, it The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Johnson. creates the official languages minority communities advisory We'll now begin a round of questions, starting with Mr. Clarke. council. ● (1115) This particular provision merits that I focus on it briefly. The Mr. Alupa Clarke (Beauport—Limoilou, CPC): Thank you, Official Languages Act, 1988, recognizes that the government has Mr. Chair. the responsibility to act to support the development of official languages minority communities, but the act is silent on how the Good morning, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Dupuis. communities are to participate in that commitment, since it is their development that is at stake. Until now, the law has not formally It is always an honour to have you at the committee as the main recognized an official government partner at the community level. representatives of all of the country's francophone groups. I don't think I'll offend anyone by saying that, as you just said that the bill The creation of an advisory council would allow the communities was a compendium of all of the requests from everywhere in the to have their word to say in the implementation of federal country. institutions' language obligations. It would allow them to take part in the development of a five-year official languages plan and in the I have eight questions to ask, and to the extent that that is possible, ten-year review of the act we are proposing. This council, made up I would like you to answer them by yes or no. I think you will see of representatives of the various organizations that speak for the that they won't require much expounding. communities, but also of other citizens, would bring the act into the On page 32 of the document I have here, in Part Vll, section 41.3, 21st century. In fact, it would include some very current approaches entitled “Duty with respect to data collection”, are you alluding to to the relations between the government and minorities. Statistics Canada? My last point regarding the new Part Vll we are proposing Mr. Alain Dupuis: Yes. concerns federal-provincial-territorial funds transfer agreements. The Mr. Alupa Clarke: Yes. So, basically, you want the law to Federal Court decision I mentioned earlier involved a case where the include an obligation that Statistics Canada carry out a proper Government of British Columbia had received federal funds for census. employment assistance and had used them in a way that was prejudicial to the francophone community. Mr. Alain Dupuis: Yes. This issue underscored the weakness of the language clauses in At this time, if a department orders a study but does not ask that a these funds transfer agreements. That is why our proposal suggests linguistic variable be added, Statistics Canada does not have the the inclusion, in any agreement of that type, of a binding language obligation to do that. The idea is thus that a linguistic component be clause that will require two things from the provinces and territories: added to all of the studies departments request from Statistics first, the allocation of funds specific to the needs of official language Canada. minority communities, and also consultations with those commu- Mr. Alupa Clarke: Thank you. April 4, 2019 LANG-138 3

For my second question, let's go to section 41.5 on page 33, Do I understand correctly that through 43.2(1), you wish to entitled “Duty when leasing a federal building or federal real include the Official Languages in Education Program, OLEP, in the property in the National Capital Region”. act? I'm not sure I understand. Does the duty apply to the physical Mr. Alain Dupuis: Yes. There ought to be a five-year agreement location or to the people in it? on education in the minority language. Mr. Alain Dupuis: If a federal building is put up for rent in a city, Mr. Alupa Clarke: You may not have included the acronym for instance, we would like the local francophone community to be OLEP here directly, but that is your objective, correct? included in the consultations, the idea being that it could rent the ● (1120) building or buy it if it is being disposed of by the federal government. Mr. Alain Dupuis: We would like to see an agreement that would be renewed every five years. Mr. Alupa Clarke: I see. I hadn't understood properly. I thought it was about posting signs on the premises. Mr. Alupa Clarke: I'll go on to my seventh question. Let's go to the next page for my third question. This won't be a yes In proposed paragraph 43.4(1) of the bill, on the collective rights or no question. of the New Brunswick communities, was your objective to attach financial reality to section 16 of the Constitution Act, 1982? Aside Paragraph 43(1)(c) states: from indigenous peoples, the Constitution only recognizes the (c) encourage provincial governments to adopt measures that Acadian people. foster progress toward the equality of status or use of English and Mr. René Arseneault (Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.): That French; is what counts. How would you like to do that? Mr. Alupa Clarke: If you say so. Mr. Jean Johnson: This brings us back to the issue I raised earlier Quebeckers have not managed to obtain that recognition, to date. in my statement; that is to say the importance of including language This would be a great victory for the Acadians and I'm very happy clauses that require accountability regarding funds that are for them. However, is your objective here to codify that recognition transferred. If we can't have discussions with our provincial and in the act so that the money will follow? territorial governments, we are truly poorly governed and poorly equipped. Mr. Jean Johnson: Absolutely. Mr. Alupa Clarke: I see. So that can be done by adding language Mr. Alupa Clarke: Okay. clauses. We are not talking about encouragement. Let me go on to my next question, on proposed paragraph 43.14 Mr. Alain Dupuis: On the topic of language rights, some (1) of the bill, on page 41 of your document. provinces and territories currently have French services policies. Some have laws. British Columbia has neither policies nor laws. The These are my last questions, because I think my time must be federal government has a role to play in urging the provinces and almost up. territories to adopt such policies and legislation and in some cases by The Chair: Yes. helping fund them. This discussion has to take place, given that the federal government is responsible for official languages, but it Mr. Alupa Clarke: This paragraph is about the Official should also encourage the progress of bilingualism in provincial Languages Promotion Fund. Would funds made available following areas of jurisdiction. an order of the Official Languages Tribunal go into this fund? Mr. Alupa Clarke: On page 35, paragraph 43.1(1) is entitled Mr. Jean Johnson: Yes. “Duty to support instruction in the language of the official language Mr. Alupa Clarke: Thank you. minority communities”. How would the money in the fund be spent? Your text is not clear Is the objective here to broaden the rights holders principle? on that. The minister seems to have a certain discretionary power, Mr. Jean Johnson: There are two ways to answer that. Our but could he spend that money anyway he wished? That's the part I purpose is to make French-language education accessible to all don't understand. Canadian citizens. Mr. Jean Johnson: Our wish is that the funds be used to promote Mr. Alupa Clarke: I see. That's a very good answer. official languages. For my fifth question, let's go to page 36. Paragraph 43.1(5), Mr. Alupa Clarke: Very well. entitled “Use of Funds'', says the following: The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Clarke. (5) The minister shall ensure that the funds transferred to the provinces are spent in the manner provided for in the negotiated agreements. Mr. Rioux, you have the floor. Does this refer back directly to the language clauses? Mr. Jean Rioux (Saint-Jean, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Jean Johnson: Yes. Welcome, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Dupuis. Thank you for having Mr. Alupa Clarke: Very well. given us this document, it is very inspiring. 4 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

We often hear that money is the lifeblood of war. When I went to Mr. Jean Johnson: This may be my perception, but we really do Vancouver, I was surprised to learn that only one francophone child have to work on promotion. This morning, we attended a little out of five manages to go to French school. That means that a breakfast with Canadian Parents for French representatives. They majority of these young people are forced to register in the English- talked to us about the importance of promotion. We subscribe to that language system, and we lose them for the French fact. principle, and we want to engage with the societal project of promoting the two official languages. How can we obtain proper accountability and make sure that the money really goes where it is supposed to go, that is to linguistic Mr. Jean Rioux: Thank you. minorities? Mr. Jean Johnson: We suggest in our draft bill that language I am done, Mr. Chair. clauses be included in the financial agreements. We want to force The Chair: Thank you very much. governments to be responsible and accountable in their use of the financial resources they receive. Mr. Choquette, you have the floor. To those who say that this is very expensive, our answer is: take Mr. François Choquette (Drummond, NDP): Thank you, care! Our purpose is to better channel the resources toward their Mr. Chair. intended recipients, and we want to make sure that those resources are well used. I want to thank you, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Dupuis, for your very Mr. Jean Rioux: Currently, school boards tell us that they are not relevant presentation. Your bill is very substantive and what you've even consulted. It seems to me that there's a lot of work to do before presented to us today is the result of exceptional work. I'd like to go we get to accountability that is worthy of the name, and ensure that back to the main point of your presentation, which is Part Vll of the the funds that are disbursed don't wind up in the province's general act. fund rather than being used for the creation of institutions for linguistic minorities. Do you agree? I fell off my chair when I saw what was going on with the Netflix Mr. Alain Dupuis: Yes. That is why our draft bill sets out an affair. This has in fact given rise to complaints from many citizens, I obligation to consult the school boards and communities, notably among them. The same is true of the complaint by the Alliance when there is any change to the initial allocation of amounts agreed nationale de l'industrie musicale to the CRTC about SiriusXM. I upon in the funds transfer agreements with the province. can't get over the fact that a decision can be made and then reversed. I wonder whether that isn't a precedent on the part of the Mr. Jean Rioux: In principle, those consultations should take commissioner. They did say that this was very rare. I wonder place, but in reality, that does not seem to be the case, according to whether it wasn't the first time he did such a thing. what we learned from certain school boards we met with in the west. Mr. Alain Dupuis: The agreements should contain an obligation I'd like to quote an excerpt from an article entitled “A call for to hold those consultations. coherence on official languages”, which explains why it is extremely Mr. Jean Rioux: Agreed. important to change Part Vll. The authors, Ms. Jennifer Klinck, Ms. Padminee Chundunsing and Ms. Perri Ravon, together with Earlier, I liked it when you spoke about the promotion of Mr. Darius Bossé and Mr. Mark Power, had this to say: bilingualism. I'm looking at the act and I remember what Mr. Benoît Pelletier told us when he appeared in February. He pointed out that [English] the law deals with official languages but says very little about While the federal government has pledged to review and modernize the Official language duality. And so, I wonder if the act should not include the Languages Act, it’s been defending a decision in court that will wreak havoc on obligation to promote bilingualism, which would lead to a critical minority language communities. mass that would allow the minority to survive. What do you think of that? [Translation] ● (1125) In this article, they ask why the government, which wants to Mr. Jean Johnson: If we strengthen the concept of the two modernize the Official Languages Act, continues to maintain in official languages in Canada, this will advance Canadian bilingu- court that what happened in the Gascon affair was all right. alism, and that is what we need. We need tools that will force the governments to act responsibly with regard to this fundamental value Do you understand this double discourse? that underpins the country's identity: bilingualism or language duality. We need this law to get there. Mr. Jean Johnson: I find it unfortunate that the decision was Mr. Jean Rioux: I am going to go further. I'm thinking about reversed. Following the judgment in the Gascon affair, Ms. Joly was immersion schools. There are waiting lists just about everywhere to very clear when she said that the government wants to continue to get into immersion courses. interpret the law as it was before this decision, given that you had begun to work on its modernization. The law talks about two official languages, but should it not also mention the promotion of bilingualism? Correct me if I'm wrong, but In our draft bill, we suggest that we go from positive measures to it seems to me that the act is based on protecting the two languages, an obligation to take the necessary measures. That is important, but has less to say about the promotion of bilingualism. because the interpretation of the judge changes things. April 4, 2019 LANG-138 5

In that spirit, I'd like to ask the commissioner to take that into I want to thank you once again, gentlemen, for having come to consideration and to act like the government intends to, until the act share your suggestions with us. is modernized or until there is a court decision ordering that the provisions of the current act be respected, even if they are not very You said that we should work with the provinces so that they strict. I think that situation absolutely has to be corrected. promote bilingualism. The provinces sometimes make decisions that ● (1130) can change the life of official language minority communities. Mr. François Choquette: You published a joint press release with What can the Minister responsible for Official Languages or the another federation, whose name I have forgotten. government do to convince the provinces to make changes? Mr. Alain Dupuis: It was the Fédération culturelle canadienne- française. Mr. Jean Johnson: That is a very broad question, and it concerns us as well. Mr. François Choquette: Thank you for that. The federal government should establish a broad partnership with What is the next step? Canadian citizens are faced with a situation the francophone communities to begin a dialogue with the provinces. where satellite radio SiriusXM, or Netflix, a Web giant, are Arguments have to be set out to convince the provinces. We have to concluding agreements with the government, agreements that are talk about economic strategy and about the value of the French often secret. We don't know what positive measures or what language as a vector or economic driver. We have to convince the language clauses the government included in these agreements. Now provinces to become engaged with this Canadian vision. we have the Gascon decision, which the government continues to defend, unfortunately, and the Office of the Commissioner says it is I am from the west where the concept of economic motivation is following the decision. something that everyone there talks about. On official languages, We want to modernize the act but what can we do in the you have to speak in a language that people understand. meantime? I know that we can go to court; unfortunately, I have to Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: Thank you very much. go to court. Aside from the courts, what means can we take to make the government understand that in the meantime, this is going to Mr. Alain Dupuis: There have been binding language clauses in have serious adverse effects on our communities, as the authors of the transfer agreements with the provinces before. For instance, we the article said? clarified things so as to oblige every province to set aside a certain Mr. Alain Dupuis: It's urgent that we modernize the act, but this amount for early childhood development in French. This is a best should not be a partisan process. We should ask the commissioner practice and an incentive. whether he is open to the idea of amending his interpretation while we wait for the law to be modernized. The Official Languages Act was created 50 years ago and yet, unfortunately, over the past few months, bilingualism has been One thing is certain, the bill we are presenting to you today called into question. This allowed us to see that defending our rights clarifies that. We claim that the law should include an obligation must not be left entirely up to the federal government. rather than a simple commitment to take the necessary positive measures. We mention a series of positive measures that are already The development of our communities depends heavily on the successful practices in several federal institutions, but we are also provinces and territories, as regards health, education, social services thinking of cases where the positive measure is not defined. and culture. We must have this conversation, and see how the Official Languages Act may also contribute to making things evolve It's quite clear that the federal government should sit down with in the provinces. I'm not saying that we should not respect provincial the community organizations so that together they can determine and territorial jurisdictions—not at all— but some way has to be which positive measures apply to their situation. I don't think we can found to impart obligations to the provinces and territories for arrive at a ready-made definition of positive measures, because it linguistic minorities. can't apply to all situations. ● (1135) We defined a series of measures that are already well appreciated: an official languages action plan, binding language clauses, the Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: Yes. obligation for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to adopt a francophone immigration strategy so as to maintain or Mr. Jean Johnson: There is a consistency issue we should not increase the demographic weight of linguistic minorities, and a forget. Given the provinces' responsibility for education, immersion bilingual federal capital. Those are very concrete measures we could programs and French-language education, in order to be consistent, integrate into Part VII, but this needs to be clarified as soon as we have to see to it that these agreements are accepted by the possible. provinces. The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Choquette. Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: You said that you don't want the commissioner's responsibilities to be divided up into two I now yield the floor to Ms. Lambropoulos. positions. You would prefer that he be the only one to perform his Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos (Saint-Laurent, Lib.): Good duties, but how can his role be redefined so that he's given more morning Mr. Johnson and Mr. Dupuis. power and can be 100% effective? 6 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

Mr. Jean Johnson: In fact, we are separating the roles, that is to concern education, the provinces are not at all obliged to accept this. say the role of watchdog and the role of champion. We think that the Correct me if I'm mistaken. commissioner must maintain his role as an investigator and champion, and continue to promote official languages. We propose In your opinion, is the context or climate favourable to this at this that an administrative tribunal deal with the coercive aspects of the time? Can this be done and if so, how? If it will lead to quarrels law. between the provinces and the federal level, how can we mitigate that? How are we going to do that? Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: Thank you. The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Lambropoulos. I will now yield the In other words, have you foreseen the possibility that there might floor to Mr. Arseneault. be some reluctance? Mr. Alain Dupuis: We have a chart that explains how the roles ● (1140) are divided up. In it we indicate the process for a complaint to the Mr. Jean Johnson: There is going to be some, without a doubt, office of the commissioner or an administrative tribunal, respec- but there has already been progress in other areas when agreements tively. I invite the members of the committee to circulate that tool. were concluded. With respect to early childhood, the inclusion of Mr. René Arseneault: Thank you. language clauses in the agreements with the provinces was quite successful, notably in Alberta. For my part, I experienced this a few First, I want to thank the FCFA and all of its members, from coast years ago. In such cases, from the time when the agreement is to coast. In my opinion, this document will be part of what will be accepted, there can be a dialogue between the community and the used to review, shape and modernize our future law. I thank you, department in question. We can grow that and build on best once again. You did some extraordinary legislative work. practices. Some excellent questions were put to you. From a more general Mr. René Arseneault: I only have seven minutes, like everyone perspective, personally I'd like to go back to page 32, paragraph 41.2 else. (1), entitled “Language Clauses”, which says the following: The Chair: It's six minutes. 41.2(1) Every agreement between the Government of Canada and a province providing for a transfer of funds shall contain a binding language clause [...] Mr. René Arseneault: Six minutes? Good grief! Did your legal advisors, your constitutional specialists, suggest Here is my next question. If, as an acceptable minimum, we had to potential solutions to avoid stumbling over the ever-present choose only four of the measures you suggest, which ones would separation of provincial and federal jurisdictions? How can this be they be? Please list those four at least, in three minutes. done in peace and harmony? Mr. Alain Dupuis: The federal government already adds binding I understand that some paragraphs are interrelated but generally clauses in several of its transfer agreements. speaking, if we had to accept only four measures, which ones would they be? Mr. René Arseneault: That is true for health. Mr. Alain Dupuis: Indeed. This is already being done, so why not Mr. Alain Dupuis: These would be: that the responsibility of do it in the case of official languages? implementing the OLA be entrusted to a central agency; that there be a right of participation and an obligation to consult the communities; Mr. René Arseneault: Yes. that an administrative tribunal be created so that you can impose Mr. Alain Dupuis: The provinces accept it. They have all signed binding orders on reluctant institutions; and that the Court the health protocol. That tool is already being used. In short, yes, Challenges Program be included in the law. according to our lawyers it is valid. Mrs. Mona Fortier (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): May I ask a Mr. René Arseneault: I am not saying it isn't valid; I'm sure it is. question? I am simply wondering if, according to your legal advisors, the provinces and territories are favourable to this. Mr. René Arseneault: Since our colleague is leaving later, I'm going to yield the floor to her. Mr. Jean Johnson: Here again, I think what is needed is that you maintain a sustained dialogue with the provinces. There is a natural Mrs. Mona Fortier: I just have a quick question to clarify conflict around jurisdictional issues between the provinces and the something. federal government. That said, the provinces often forget that they In your presentation, you talk about letting Treasury Board be have jurisdictions and responsibilities with respect to their responsible for coordination and implementation, with the support of francophone communities. This is directly related to the education a Minister of State and a Secretariat for Official Languages. system and the school system. The idea is to remain consistent. If a However, on page 46 of your draft bill, with regard to the binding language clause is included in these agreements, this will be consultation of the advisory council, it's says “Minister of Official beneficial to our communities. Without that, we cannot... Languages.” Mr. René Arseneault: I understand, but there are other aspects. Education is included. We can also talk about infrastructure or At this time, we have a Minister responsible for Official anything else. I understand your reason and I support it, but we can't Languages. This is a stronger position than that of Secretary of ask for binding language clauses and expect that the territories and State. I simply want to understand the terms that are used. Perhaps provinces will accept this without a peep. Aside from in matters that I'm confused. I just want a clarification. April 4, 2019 LANG-138 7

Mr. Alain Dupuis: There are two ways of doing this, whether We will continue with Mrs. Sylvie Boucher. there is a Minister of State or some other entity. In the law, we used the term “Minister of Official Languages”, quite simply. This person would be independent and would not necessarily report to Treasury Mrs. Sylvie Boucher (Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Or- Board. That said, the President of Treasury Board would have the léans—Charlevoix, CPC): Good morning, Mr. Johnson and responsibility for the implementation of the act as a whole. Mr. Dupuis, I am always very pleased to see you and to be able to discuss bilingualism, the francophonie and English-speaking com- Mrs. Mona Fortier: It is understood that “Minister of Official munities with you. Languages” is much stronger than “Secretary of State.” We agree on that, right? Mr. Alain Dupuis: Absolutely. We agree on that. We are government representatives, and I noticed yesterday that Mrs. Mona Fortier: Thank you. That is the clarification I wanted. the Prime Minister had made his speech in the House in English The Chair: Thank you, Mrs. Fortier. only. I was in the lobby, and as a member, that made me a bit angry and very surprised. I wanted to share that with you. I think in fact I'd like to raise a point. What's extraordinary is that Canada is the that all francophones were surprised since they expected to hear both second most important player in the international francophonie after official languages. On the matter of linguistic duality, it's important France. What is also extraordinary is that Ms. Catherine Cano, the to remember that there are francophones everywhere in the country. former president of the Canadian Parliamentary Channel, or CPAC, who appeared before us some time ago, has become the number two representative of the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, I liked your brief very much. You talk a great deal about Part VII the OIF. of the OLA, as well as about an official languages tribunal. You have I am also told that in the United States, there are upwards of indeed just shown us a little chart with some nice words, but I would 10 million francophones or francophiles. like you to explain it in greater detail. The government decided to group under one umbrella the international francophonie, the Canadian francophonie and official Mr. Alupa Clarke: That's a good point. languages, among others. In light of that, would it be advisable to add a chapter to this new law to promote what we are as Canadians and as a country with two official languages? I'm thinking of both Mr. Alain Dupuis: Our chart explains the steps a person should the Canadian population and the American population, and that of expect if they file a complaint with the Office of the Commissioner practically every other country on the planet. That would allow us to of Official Languages. It all starts, of course, with the filing of the say that we have two official languages and that it works. complaint. The Commissioner then decides whether to investigate or dismiss the complaint out of hand if he finds it inadmissible. I did not see this in your proposal. I would just like to hear your thoughts on the idea of promotion. Mr. Jean Johnson: There is no doubt that if our country If the Commissioner decides to investigate, he must gather all advocates bilingualism and promotes the fact that we are bilingual, relevant information before deciding whether there has been a breach while being aware that this is not quite today's reality, but that this by the federal institution, and then produce an investigation file. If corresponds to our vision, I think that we have everything to gain the Commissioner finds that the complaint is not well-founded, he from that at the international level, for business, cultural and social will dismiss it. The complainant will then have the opportunity to reasons. We need to boast about our success as a country. appeal the decision or refer it to the Official Languages Tribunal. If the Commissioner determines that that complaint is well-founded With respect to Canadian values, linguistic duality, Canadian because there has been a breach by the federal institution, he can bilingualism, diversity and inclusion, we have to be proud of what refer the matter to the Official Languages Tribunal on his own we are as a country. initiative and forward his investigation file to the tribunal. ● (1145) Mr. Alain Dupuis: In our draft bill, we included in Part VII a provision to clarify Canada's obligation to promote its bilingualism So the Official Languages Tribunal deals with three parties: the abroad. complainant, the federal institution that is the target of the complaint and the Commissioner of Official Languages. Also, in one of her recent forums, Minister Joly asked whether we needed to clarify the role of the Minister of the Francophonie in order to include the promotion of the French language abroad in it. What's interesting is that our proposed bill also gives the This is not included in our brief, but we think it is a very good idea to Commissioner the responsibility to refer to the tribunal any clarify that role. Indeed, at the OIF, there are all kinds of investigation file involving a systemic breach that has already international development, economic and democratic development occurred in a similar case. The Commissioner is therefore not strategies, but promoting the French language in the world must be a required to limit himself to an isolated complaint, but may go part of the role of the Minister of the Francophonie. beyond it to verify whether other complaints of the same type have The Chair: Thank you very much. already been filed, which would indicate a systemic problem. 8 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

It would then be up to the Official Languages Tribunal to decide of official languages that is much more present in federal institutions. the nature of its order. If it chooses to order a declaratory remedy, it If this isn't the case and these institutions don't respond to the call, would ask the federal institution to declare that it has violated the we have concrete mechanisms to create this reflex and generate a complainant's language rights. If the tribunal wants a federal real commitment on their part. institution to do or refrain from doing certain things, it may order it to take certain corrective measures. If the tribunal considers it The Chair: Thank you very much, Mrs. Boucher. appropriate, it may also decide to maintain its jurisdiction—and not close the file—until the federal institution has proven itself, We'll now go to Mr. Samson from Nova Scotia. implemented its recommendations and taken the necessary remedial Mr. Darrell Samson (Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, Lib.): measures. If the tribunal chooses to impose a financial penalty, it Thank you, Mr. Chair. You got to Nova Scotia. That's good. You may either award damages to any aggrieved person or impose an made the trip today. administrative monetary penalty—a fine, in other words—on any refractory federal institution. Rather than going back into the federal government's pockets, the amount of this fine would be credited to First, I want to thank you, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Dupuis, for your the Fund for the Promotion of Official Languages. This list is partial presentation. However, what's even more important is recognizing and the tribunal may decide to issue orders of other types. the efforts and energy you have put into this issue for more than a year, whether it is in consultations with MPs or meetings with the In our opinion, these provisions would give the act real teeth and government, departments and other organizations. I think it's very would solve problems in a convincing way. Indeed, at present, the important to recognize this, because 50 years after the creation of the Commissioner can only make recommendations, which sometimes act, the time is right. It's really special. go unheeded. The Commissioner may, of course, refer the matter to the Federal Court if the federal institution does not take into account That said, I noticed something. Maybe it was a strategic oversight his requests for follow-up, but he has only exercised this right about on your part. When we talk about expanding the scope of the rights 10 times in 20 years. In our view, the provisions we are proposing and obligations, you don't mention real property. Is it an omission or would make the system more effective, not to mention the is it already in the text? Is there a problem there? subsequent possibility of seeking judicial review by the Federal Court. Mr. Alain Dupuis: It's in the text of the act and not in the two- page summary. ● (1150) Mrs. Sylvie Boucher: Okay. Mr. Darrell Samson: That's what I think was missing. I would have liked to see it directly in your proposals. It should be enshrined I see two green lines on your chart. Could you please explain in the act because it would give it a certain power. I think that's very them? important. Mr. Alain Dupuis: The first green line indicates that if the complaint is dismissed out of hand because it is deemed There is no doubt that here at this table, all the members of the inadmissible, the complainant can immediately go to the tribunal. committee, without exception, are committed to advancing the Mrs. Sylvie Boucher: Are you saying that the complainant also Francophonie and are willing to do so. This doesn't mean that we all has that right? share the same vision. This distinction must be made, and it is important. With regard to language clauses, for example, our Mr. Jean Johnson: Yes. government has already put forward a reason to move this issue Mrs. Sylvie Boucher: Doesn't it have to be investigated by the forward. We have already retained the question of Supreme Court Commissioner first? judges. There was also the court challenges program. As you can Mr. Jean Johnson: No. It's important that the complaint doesn't see, there is a distinction to be made in relation to the other two remain outstanding. parties. As for the question of the Supreme Court judges, they were more or less against it. In the case of the court challenges program, Mrs. Sylvie Boucher: Great. Thank you. legislation has been drafted to abolish it. You really have to be Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair? careful and see where all this work, which is very important, is going to lead. The Chair: You have about 30 seconds. Mrs. Sylvie Boucher: Thank you very much. Mr. Johnson, I said that I found your comments very interesting. I think we're all here as defenders of official languages. As you You're absolutely right. We must communicate to people, whether said, in the future, we should talk more about bilingualism. It's they are anglophones or francophones, whether they are in Quebec difficult, even here in Ottawa, to get answers in French. We all know or elsewhere in the country, the importance and richness of linguistic evaders, but now what can we do, as politicians, so that the evaders duality. That's where there really is a gap. You mentioned the word understand that in 2019, things have to be done this way? Can you “economy”. The economy is very important. If we want to increase answer my question, Mr. Johnson? this richness, both languages must be alive. Among the most widely used languages in the world, our language ranks third. There is an Mr. Jean Johnson: I'll let Mr. Dupuis answer it. incredible market that we can develop. You're from Alberta, aren't Mr. Alain Dupuis: Generally speaking, I think the modernization you? That province is really focused on the economy. So there is a of the act provides us with these tools. We propose creating a culture richness. April 4, 2019 LANG-138 9

At home in Nova Scotia, highlighting beneficial sectors, such as Mr. Bernard Généreux: Okay. tourism, has been profitable. Tourism attracts a lot of people. I think it is important to make this point. I think we need to work on that as I would like to add something to what Mr. Samson said earlier. a government. People and organizations in the field must also do it. I'll be honest with you: I didn't have time to read the whole You also talked about consultation. Could you tell us a little more document. about it? For my part, I find that this is a major flaw. It is somewhat After the act has been modernized—let's hope that happens related to the need to communicate to anglophones and the provinces quickly—will it have to be reviewed every 10 years? Are you asking and territories the importance of linguistic duality as a resource, but that the modernized act include a requirement for systematic review it also requires consultation. There is a total lack of consultation. I'd every 10 years? like you to talk a little bit about it. Mr. Jean Johnson: Yes, every 10 years. ● (1155) Mr. Bernard Généreux: Okay. Mr. Jean Johnson: It's important to know why an official languages act was adopted in the first place. The purpose of the act is Would a systematic review like this make it possible to avoid what to protect official language minority communities, but we must go we have experienced over the past 50 years, and particularly the beyond protection. These communities must be empowered to take events of the past year, which have been relatively difficult for the their full place and space. French-speaking world across Canada? What would be the advantage of reviewing the act every 10 years? We are at a time when the acceptance of the notion of Canadian bilingualism is very high. However, the measures are stagnating, Mr. Jean Johnson: Reviewing the act will help to bring the probably because we have not equipped ourselves with the necessary notion of two official languages in Canada back in the public eye. tools to engage in real promotion. You mentioned the consultation First, it is important that linguistic duality be discussed in the earlier. In my opinion, it is fundamental if we want to make progress public arena. Second, in the case of an act, 10 years can be a very on this issue. long time. In fact, we must anticipate the evolution of society. If we In the consultation process, there should be discussions with civil let 30 years go by, there would be too much catching up to do. society and the government on the importance of the French ● (1200) language as an economic driver. Thus, we would stop saying that it Mr. Bernard Généreux: That's it. is expensive and look at things from the perspective of a return on investment. It is always necessary to insist on the positive effects. The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Généreux. The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson and Mr. Dupuis, thank you for appearing before our Mr. Darrell Samson: I'm positive my minutes are going by much committee. I'm sure your clarifications will help us greatly in faster for me than the others. drafting the report we must complete before the end of the session. The Chair: I'll give Mr. Généreux the last three minutes in this Mr. Alain Dupuis: Thank you, Mr. Chair. first hour. Mr. Jean Johnson: Thank you, everyone. Mr. Bernard Généreux (Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska The Chair: We will suspend the meeting for a few minutes, then —Rivière-du-Loup, CPC): I'll continue to build on your momen- we will hear Minister Joly's remarks. tum, Mr. Samson. ● (1200) Mr. Darrell Samson: All right, Mr. Généreux. (Pause) Mr. Bernard Généreux: Mr. Johnson, there are people in the ● (1210) room from two organizations I know, Canadian Parents for French The Chair: Pursuant to Standing Order 108, we are continuing and the Quebec Community Groups Network, or QCGN. our study on Vote 1 under Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages in the Interim Estimates 2019-20. Mr. Johnson, we spoke for two minutes before the meeting began. You told me that you learned a lot from what was said at the Senate It is a pleasure to have with us today the Hon. Mélanie Joly, our committee to arrive at the bill you are proposing. What consultations Minister of Tourism, Official Languages and La Francophonie. did you conduct on your side before ending up with this bill? Ms. Joly, I imagine you'll introduce the people with you. Mr. Jean Johnson: We relied largely on the briefs that have been submitted. It isn't our responsibility to visit each of our communities As usual, you have about 10 minutes for your opening remarks. to consult them. In our opinion, this work is the responsibility of the Then, we will go around the table for questions and comments from government. our colleagues. We got the briefs and statements that our members had made Madam Minister, the floor is yours. before the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages as part Hon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Tourism, Official Languages of its study on the modernization of the act. That is a large part of and La Francophonie): Thank you, Mr. Chair. what we have been inspired by. Then, people voluntarily told us their views, concerns and priorities, which we incorporated into the Thank you, members of the committee. It is a pleasure to see you document you have before you. all here together. 10 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

Thank you for inviting me here today to talk, first, about the cafeteria/theatre. On February 15, at Université de Saint-Boniface in provisional budget 2019-20 and, second, the proposal to hold a Manitoba, I announced an investment of close to $2.1 million for the federal-provincial-territorial summit on official languages as part of construction of a learning and child care centre on campus. On the 50th anniversary of the Official Languages Act. March 14, in Summerside, Prince Edward Island, I announced an [English] investment of $3 million over three years to expand and renovate the shared and community spaces of the Centre Belle-Alliance. Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge the important work that you colleagues have been doing as a committee. Your efforts to [Translation] modernize the Official Languages Act and optimize the action plan on official languages inform our thinking, and I'm very grateful for On March 14, I also took advantage of this opportunity to that. announce funding of close to $500,000 for seven Acadian and francophone organizations in Prince Edward Island. With me today is my deputy minister Guylaine Roy, as well as Andrew Francis, who is the chief financial officer at the Department In all those cases, those announcements were extremely well of Canadian Heritage, and Denis Racine, who is the director general received. for the official languages branch. Rogersville has been fighting for 25 years to have this cafeteria Mr. Chair, I know that you're closely looking at and following the and theatre project. The entire community gathered for the implementation of “Action Plan for Official Languages 2018-2023: announcement. We can say that this will really change the lives of Investing in Our Future”. people living in this region of northern New Brunswick. ● (1215) [Translation] The same is true in Saint-Boniface. Almost all universities in Manitoba have child care centres. The Université de Saint-Boniface, We are finally at the point where the action plan for official the only francophone university not only in Manitoba but also to the languages is now one year old. west of Quebec, was the only one that did not have a child care centre. So, the entire community gathered to celebrate this It's a clear indicator of our government's commitment toward announcement. official language minority communities. It proposes a clear vision and specific measures to promote On March 14, when I went to the Centre Belle-Alliance, the bilingualism and strengthen official language minority communities. women who had to fight all the way to the Supreme Court to get their children to a primary school were present. In short, we Most importantly, it proposes a historic investment in official announced that high school would now be available for the linguistic languages. Specifically, this represents $2.7 billion over five years minority in Summerside. for programs that promote official languages, including nearly $500 million in new funding. So, in all three cases, we can see that these announcements really have a concrete impact on the community. Through these investments, we reaffirmed our commitment to support the two million Canadians in a minority language situation, Of course, these substantial investments are reflected in the allowing them to live in their language on a daily basis and to reduce financial authorities. the risks of linguistic assimilation. Given that you asked me to talk about it, I will go into the This requires strong communities and organizations that can financial details. provide programs and spaces to ensure their own vitality. The implementation of the action plan is progressing as planned. The total budgets for the Official Languages Support Programs for At my last appearance, I mentioned that three important announce- 2019-2020 fiscal year will be $435.4 million. This figure includes an ments about the implementation had already been made. First, there increase of $69.9 million directly from the action plan for official was confirmation of a 20% increase in core funding for community languages. organizations; second, funding for community media; third, an investment in the community cultural action fund to offer more If we add the funding for the other programs and departments cultural activities for students in official language minority participating in the action plan, we're looking at close to communities. $500 million in new funding over five years. In fact, it's a little over $500 million over five years, and I'll explain why later. I also had an opportunity to make three major announcements about education infrastructure for francophone communities outside These increases are permanent. They will continue well beyond Quebec, in Rogersville, New Brunswick, at the Université de Saint the five-year term of the action plan, at a rate of more than Boniface, Manitoba, and in Summerside, Prince Edward Island. $100 million per year. This is an extremely positive financial outlook [English] for our communities and for the promotion of official languages. On January 8, I was in Rogersville announcing $3.2 million in We know that in minority situations, educational institutions are funding over two years for the construction of a 329-seat school pillars for communities. April 4, 2019 LANG-138 11

● (1220) promotion of official language communities, it is clear to us that we [English] must go beyond investments and review the linguistic framework as a whole to ensure that it enables communities to meet the challenges Before I go on to education, I would like to acknowledge the of the 21st century. passing of a very important individual for the English community in [English] Quebec, James Shea. As a former leader of the Quebec Community Groups Network, QCGN, he was instrumental in obtaining federal In the summer of 2018, the Prime Minister gave me the mandate support and getting the provincial government to create a secretariat to review the act with a view to modernizing it, and I believe there's to improve relations with the anglophone communities. Of course, I a very broad consensus on undertaking such an approach. We want would like to share the government's support to his legacy and to strengthen the act and extend its scope. obviously to the entire community. That is why I initiated a national dialogue on the subject. We are [Translation] meeting with Canadians through five forums and 12 round tables. So It goes without saying that francophones in Ontario have the right far, our exchanges have been very productive. We've already had to receive an education in their language. That's why our government two of the five forums: one in Moncton and the other in Ottawa. announced funding of $1.9 million to support the creation of the Before submitting recommendations to the Prime Minister, I want Université de l'Ontario français in Toronto. The start-up team will to hear from Canadians, including you, of course; the Senate now be able to continue their efforts until January 2020. Standing Committee on Official Languages; and the Office of the We will always stand by our communities to protect their Commissioner of Official Languages. language rights. The provinces and territories are welcome to join this significant That is also why budget 2019 provides additional support to national dialogue. It will culminate in a national symposium on May education in the minority language. This support is conditional on 27-28, 2019, which will bring together representatives from the conclusion of a new protocol or new bilateral agreements in communities, civil society, the federal government, and the education with the provincial and territorial governments. provincial and territorial governments. At the symposium, we will review the progress made over the last few years and discuss the I would also like to highlight that the House adopted a significant issues and challenges we may face over the next 50 years. change to the Divorce Act that guarantees, for the first time, the right ● (1225) to divorce in one's own language. Budget 2019 also allows [Translation] additional funding of $21.6 million for the implementation of this new legal component. This symposium is a rare opportunity to undertake a comprehen- sive review of Canada's language policy. If we take into account the additional money for education, as well as for provinces, territories and organizations in divorce proceedings I will have the opportunity to continue the discussion at an in the official language of one's choice, we see that the new upcoming federal-provincial- territorial meeting, the Ministerial investments are well over $500 million. Conference on the Canadian Francophonie, which will be held on June 27 and 28, 2019. Last October, we also amended part IV of the Official Languages (Communications with and Services to the Public) Regulations for In fact, I am pleased to give you a scoop and tell you that we have the first time since it was passed in 1991, to ensure better coverage of listened to the FCFA. The federation will attend the conference since bilingual federal services for Canadians in a minority situation. This all the ministers of the Canadian francophonie and, of course, the particularly affects francophone communities outside Quebec. federal government have invited them to take part in our discussions. This request from the FCFA is historic and we have decided to Among the changes made, we adopted a new and more inclusive respond positively. calculation method to increase the official language minority population and to ensure that the regulations continue to apply even We are also reaffirming our commitment to a “by and for” if the population has decreased. approach for official language minority communities. In our criteria, we added a community vitality criterion to ensure We are all firmly convinced of the importance of engaging in a that our offices offer a bilingual service when a school is located major dialogue on official languages on the occasion of the within an office's service area. 50th anniversary of the act. The national symposium and the ministerial conference will be the high points of this dialogue. There We designated more than 600 new bilingual offices across the are still three forums left before the national symposium. All country. This will also change the lives of many people who live in Canadians are invited to share their views in writing or to participate minority language communities. directly in this reflection. We also designated as bilingual airports and train stations that are Thank you. I am now ready to take your questions. subject to the Official Languages Act and are located in provincial and territorial capitals. The Chair: Thank you very much, Minister. As you know, this year we celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Mr. Clarke, you can start. Official Languages Act. As our government is committed to the Mr. Alupa Clarke: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 12 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

Good afternoon to you, Minister, and to your colleagues who are That being said, I would ask you to put pressure on your leader to here to support you. I am very pleased to see you before the ensure that in the future, there will be no cuts. As we know, in his committee today. own election platform, he had planned budget cuts for the CBC.

Hon. Mélanie Joly: Thank you. ● (1230) Mr. Alupa Clarke: I would like to ask you a quick question first. Mr. Alupa Clarke: Ms. Joly, I think Canadians expect you, as In your presentation, you mentioned the 20% increase in core minister, to question the CBC, not a member of the opposition. I funding for community organizations. We are fully aware that this is have every confidence in your good intentions, but I would still very important for linguistic communities. Would you be able to invite you to ask the CEO why those cuts were made. They fly in the provide the committee with budget figures confirming that, in the face of your intentions with respect to official languages. past year, each community has in fact received more funding? Hon. Mélanie Joly: I am not the minister responsible for the Communities used to receive 7¢ of each dollar. I think that's the Broadcasting Act or the CBC. number. According to the enhancement, that amount of 7¢ should have been increased. Is it possible for you to provide this information Mr. Alupa Clarke: You are responsible for the vitality of to the committee, in order to confirm that the communities are linguistic communities, Minister. benefiting from the increase? Hon. Mélanie Joly: If you also want to invite my colleague, the Hon. Mélanie Joly: I would be happy to provide you with more Minister of Canadian Heritage and Multiculturalism, I would be data. These amounts were approved by the Treasury Board and have pleased to share your intention with him. been distributed. However, I must provide the data in compliance with privacy laws. Mr. Alupa Clarke: In cabinet, isn't it your responsibility to ask your colleague why, in this case, action is being taken to the Mr. Alupa Clarke: No problem with that here. detriment of the vitality of linguistic communities? Hon. Mélanie Joly: If those data can be made public, I will be happy to provide them to you. Hon. Mélanie Joly: In terms of how we follow up with official language minority communities, I have already mentioned that we Furthermore, other budget increases are expected. At the moment, give them money directly. That's part of my responsibility and that is we are in extensive talks with the various organizations. In the past, why we have provided a new amount of $500 million over five the same organizations were often the ones that received the money. years.

Mrs. Sylvie Boucher: Yes. As for the CBC, I would just like to remind you of the obligations Hon. Mélanie Joly: We were told that some organizations that of the government and parliamentarians: we must always respect the had never received funding would like to receive it. We are in the independence of the CBC. process of discussing both with these organizations and with those that have traditionally received funding from the department, to see Mr. Alupa Clarke: As you know, we have finally begun a study how we can further increase funding in due course. on the modernization of the Official Languages Act. You have followed suit and I am very happy about that. Mr. Alupa Clarke: Thank you very much. To date, however, two presentations have sort of confused me. You also mentioned funding for community media, which brings me to one thing I have noticed recently. First, there was the one on February 18, 2019. It was not before According to the preliminary budget you sent us, $302 million our committee, but before the Standing Senate Committee on will be allocated to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which is Official Languages. Senator Rose-May Poirier asked Pierre Lavallée, very good. However, I read in L'Acadie nouvelle that there had been the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank, whether he had spoken a 10% reduction in jobs at the Radio-Canada station in Moncton. I with you or people in your office about his official languages duties. was a little troubled. As we know, the Canada Infrastructure Bank has had some problems with this. To everyone's surprise, Mr. Lavallée replied that your I would like to understand how it is possible to increase funding office had never contacted him or the Canada Infrastructure Bank. for the CBC, which I think is commendable, while also cutting funding for its station in Moncton, where there is a francophone You seem to be saying that, in the case of Radio-Canada, another minority language community? minister is responsible. In this case, clearly, you did not contact the Infrastructure Bank yourself. Have you at least discussed this issue Hon. Mélanie Joly: There are two things. with Mr. Champagne in cabinet? Since the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's activities are the Hon. Mélanie Joly: First, I must say that I had the opportunity to responsibility of the Corporation itself and since, in order to respect meet with Pierre Lavallée to remind him of his organization's its independence, the government is not involved in its activities, I obligations under the Official Languages Act. would invite you to ask the CEO of the CBC to explain this decision. Mr. Alupa Clarke: Was that recently? However, I can tell you that we have increased the CBC's budget by an unprecedented amount of $675 million. Hon. Mélanie Joly: It was last month. April 4, 2019 LANG-138 13

Mr. Alupa Clarke: Okay, that's great. been recognized. That strengthens not only community vitality but Hon. Mélanie Joly: He has committed to respecting them. It is language education, which is an essential element. unacceptable that the Canada Infrastructure Bank does not comply with the Official Languages Act. You have also done extraordinary things in this respect. Could you tell us about them, because it is extremely important, and people are Second, I have talked to my colleague, of course, but I cannot interested. I am specifically thinking about the strategic agreement report on discussions in cabinet or the Treasury Board. However, I you have signed with francophone school boards. I am also thinking can tell you that I am following up on the matter and that the Canada about the funding the government has just announced for Infrastructure Bank must comply with the Official Languages Act, of francophone school boards all over the country. course. Mr. Alupa Clarke: Okay. Hon. Mélanie Joly: Thank you, my dear colleague. You bring up a number of points. Thank you. The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Clarke. For a long time, school boards—principally francophone school We'll now move to our friend Mr. Samson. boards, but also the anglophone school boards in Quebec—have told us that they are concerned by the lack of transparency in a number of Mr. Darrell Samson: Thank you, Mr. Chair. You have reached provinces and territories in the way in which federal funds allocated Nova Scotia. You have had quite a trip today. to minority school systems are spent. For francophones, I am talking Madam Minister, thank you for your presentation. My thanks also about teaching in French as a first language, not a second language. to your colleagues for being here. I found that your presentation was Basically, the provinces consult the school boards very little in order good in going over the situation we have known about for a year. to establish their budgets and their funding. That has direct consequences on the attractiveness of francophone schools in I have three major questions. The first is simple but important. minority situations and on the decision of families to send their children to them or not. Your title is now Minister of Tourism, Official Languages and La Francophonie. That means the francophonie in Canada and the international francophonie. Tell me about the importance that the So we decided to take a strong position and require provinces and government has attached to the role, both at home and abroad. territories to be transparent with their francophone school boards and to consult them. In addition, the recent budget provides more money Hon. Mélanie Joly: Thank you. for minority school boards, which is good news. This is the first time This is the first time that a minister of official languages has also that the federal government has provided money in such clear terms been responsible for the francophonie. That means the francophonie for francophone school boards outside Quebec and anglophone in Canada, of course, but mostly the international francophonie. It school boards in Quebec. The increased funding will make minority enables us to highlight the importance of the French fact once again, schools more attractive, as they are often in competition with and to ensure that it is protected and promoted both in Canada and immersion schools. In fact, it is recognized that linguistic around the world. assimilation is greater when a rights holder, a child of a francophone family, for example, goes to an anglophone majority school, even in This is also reflected in the various themes we want to address in an immersion program. major forums. At the next one, which will be held in Sherbrooke on April 15, we will be holding a discussion on the official languages Mr. Darrell Samson: Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair? and Canada's place in the world. We will be determining how we can reaffirm the importance of the Minister of the Francophonie and of The Chair: You have one minute. Canada's role in the international francophonie. We will also be determining how we can ensure that the importance of bilingualism and the protection of the French fact is given a place in the mandate Mr. Darrell Samson: Excellent. of our Canadian diplomacy. That is why I am so attracted to the portfolio. I would now like to talk about the changes made to the official ● (1235) languages regulations, more specifically the bilingual designation of 600 federal service offices. If a moratorium had not been ordered, a Mr. Darrell Samson: Thank you very much. It is important to year and a half or two years ago, we would have lost 187 bilingual emphasize that. offices, including 7 or 8 in Nova Scotia. Today, we are adding more As I have a number of years' experience as the former director than 600. Can you tell us more about this very important matter? general of the francophone schools in Nova Scotia and a former national president of the directors general of the francophone school Hon. Mélanie Joly: As you well know, because you follow the boards outside Quebec, I am well aware of the importance of matter closely, the biggest issue in official languages is the education for the vitality of official language minority communities. assimilation of francophones in minority situations, particularly I find it extraordinary that vitality has been added as a criterion to the against the background of the demographic growth Canada is official languages regulations and that the presence of schools has experiencing. 14 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

The calculation method was a problem, in that any given region [English] had to have a sufficient number of people speaking the minority While the federal government has pledged to review and modernize the Official language in order for bilingual services to be provided. Our objective Languages Act, it’s been defending a decision in court that will wreak havoc on therefore was to find some kind of accommodation, not only to minority language communities. preserve acquired rights but also to increase bilingualism. As we know, Service Canada offices providing services in French and [Translation] English also represent employment possibilities for francophones in minority situations. This was a very important matter for us, and I Basically, they are saying that, on the one hand, you publicly state must acknowledge the work of my former colleague Scott Brison, that you want institutions, including the Office of the Commissioner who was an important ally when he was President of the Treasury of Official Languages, to embrace a broad, liberal definition of Board. Part VII, while, on the other hand, you are taking the completely opposite position in court. Mr. Darrell Samson: Thank you again for your leadership, Madam Minister. In this matter, why are you not doing the same as you are doing The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Samson. with Part IV and the official languages regulations? The floor now goes to Mr. Choquette. Hon. Mélanie Joly: I cannot tell you about the discussions that Mr. François Choquette: Thank you, Mr. Chair. are currently going on with the Department of Justice. It goes without saying that, in the government‘s vision, positive measures Thank you for being here, Madam Minister. must be interpreted broadly. That is why I sent a letter to all my colleagues to make sure that all departments adopt that broad First, let me congratulate you for granting the Université de interpretation of the Official Languages Act, particularly in terms of l’Ontario français the funding that will allow its board of governors the positive measures in Part VII. to continue their work. That is very good news. On the same subject of that university, how long ago was your last In the meantime, knowing that a lot needs to be done to modernize meeting or telephone call with the Government of Ontario? the act, I have launched a discussion on the modernization by saying directly that I would like to hear what Canadians think about the Hon. Mélanie Joly: We sent two letters to the Government of positive measures. In addition, on April 23, there will be a forum in Ontario. Members of my team communicated with Ms. Mulroney’s Edmonton where it can be talked about some more. office on several occasions. I also had the opportunity to speak with Dyane Adam’s team; she is heading the project. I also wrote you a letter encouraging you to study the issue of One thing is clear: the Conservative Government of Ontario does positive measures even more in the context of the modernization of not want to fund the Université de l’Ontario français project. So the the Official Languages Act. Our government feels that it is federal government decided, first, to allocate $1.9 million to pay the important… salaries of the various people working on the project. In addition, the Mr. François Choquette: Madam Minister, I have let you action plan for official languages allocates certain amounts provide something of an answer, but my time is very limited. specifically for educational infrastructure, which will allow us to provide the university with more funding. Hon. Mélanie Joly: I had finished answering your question. ● (1240) Thank you. Mr. François Choquette: So no serious negotiations are going on Mr. François Choquette: Thank you. at the moment. Nothing is moving. Hon. Mélanie Joly: At the moment, there is sufficient financing At the moment, the problem is that the commissioner’s office is to support the project. I have had discussions on many occasions refusing all the complaints it receives about Part VII. Recently, the with members of the community with a view to finding solutions and Alliance nationale de l'industrie musicale, which had filed a exerting pressure on Doug Ford’s Ontario government to make a complaint against the CRTC and SiriusXM Canada, was told that decision on the matter. I have been able to discuss it on a number of nothing more could be done. The complaint was first accepted, then occasions with a good number of former first ministers. turned down. It is the same with the Netflix case. I am one of the complainants in that matter, as you know full well. Once again, the Mr. François Choquette: On the matter of Part IV and the official complaint has been refused. languages regulations, I wanted to congratulate you and the Treasury Board once more for the moratorium that has been imposed. That Meanwhile, official languages are under severe attack. That is was as a result of a lawsuit that the Société franco-manitobaine why I am asking you to think about the issue, to talk to your brought against the federal government. government, and to withdraw your version of this court case. But there is one thing I do not understand. Why are you not doing Hon. Mélanie Joly: We are one of the interveners in the case, but the same thing with the FFCB lawsuit? Against the background of I have to say that the decision was made by the former Harper Justice Gascon’s decision, an article entitled “A call for coherence on government. official languages” was recently published by Darius Bossé, Jennifer Klinck, Mark Power, Padminee Chundunsing and Perri Ravon. It Mr. François Choquette: The fact remains that you are in power reads: now. April 4, 2019 LANG-138 15

● (1245) who are there. What are we going to be doing to make sure that we Hon. Mélanie Joly: I have to tell you that, when we came into find a solution to this problem? power, the previous position had been to interpret positive measures Hon. Mélanie Joly: Obviously, we made sure to make many in a restricted way. That is why I had to change the channel commitments to our public service to increase the capacity of our internally by sending those letters to my colleagues, to make sure public service all across the board. That creates a lot of opportunity, that we were going to interpret positive measures broadly. including in Quebec, and it also ensures that there is a greater need to Mr. François Choquette: I have one last question… have a bilingual capacity all across Quebec. So that is definitely good for the anglophone community as well. Hon. Mélanie Joly: I hope that the commissioner of official Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: Thank you. languages will also interpret it broadly. I have spoken to him about it. [Translation] Mr. François Choquette: Unfortunately, that is not the case. How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair? I have one last question… The Chair: You have two minutes. The Chair: Your time is up. Thank you, Mr. Choquette. [English] We now move to Ms. Lambropoulos. Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: Finally, last but not least, we Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: Thank you, honourable know that Quebeckers, especially anglophone Quebeckers and minister, for joining us today. others, feel at this point this insecurity of living in the province, [English] mainly because of decisions that are not taken by our government but by other governments. I'd like to know what our government can Thank you for being here to answer our questions. do, other than through funding, to play a role to help them feel safer. Hon. Mélanie Joly: Well, I think we've had a strong stance in I met over the weekend with Youth for Youth Quebec, which is an terms of, first, the importance of official bilingualism, and second, organization that engages young people, and it is actually funded by the importance of minority linguistic rights, and therefore the rights the federal government, through the heritage ministry, I believe. I of anglophones in Quebec as well. We have been clear that we would know that anglophone organizations in Quebec really appreciate it support the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is obviously an when they are funded by the federal government because it goes a ongoing commitment of our Liberal government. It may be on long way. It helps create jobs for anglophones living in Quebec, and linguistic rights, but also on religious freedoms and equality. it just helps maintain these communities. Clearly, what we've done has been not only to support these rights A lot of the feelings I heard at this meeting suggested that a lot of but to provide an important funding mechanism to make sure that young Quebeckers don't feel they should be there. They feel they these rights can be upheld and that the court challenges program, should leave the province because they don't feel a connection to it. which we reinstituted two years ago, is functioning to make sure that What kind of funding is going into organizations across Quebec groups can have access to funding to defend their cases. for anglophone communities? Is there anything further that you ● (1250) foresee being able to do to help these communities stay together? Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: Thank you very much. Hon. Mélanie Joly: Thank you. [Translation] Obviously, answering the needs and, quite frankly, anxieties of The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Lambropoulos. anglophones in Quebec is a top priority, and that's why in the official languages plan we came up with a $5-million support specific to the I would just like to interrupt for a few seconds. I do not want to anglophone community in Quebec. We also fund many youth lose the thread of the discussion, but, on behalf of all the members of organizations and organizations that are part of the economic the committee, it is my pleasure to wish Alupa Clarke a happy development ecosystem, and we've increased funding for these birthday today. organizations as well. Definitely this will help them to do much more Voices: Ha, ha! Happy birthday. outreach and promotion, and also, I would say, counselling for youth, to be able to understand what opportunities there are for them The Chair: Happy birthday, Mr. Clarke! throughout Quebec. Mr. Alupa Clarke: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I must add that we've also been working extremely hard with The Chair: Let us resume the meeting. QCGN and with a lot of organizations in rural Quebec to find the The floor goes to René Arseneault. right balance between the needs of Quebeckers in the region of Montreal—which both of us represent and we're very proud of that Mr. René Arseneault: Good afternoon, Madam Minister. We are —and in rural Quebec, where the needs are sometimes different, as always happy to have you here. are the realities and challenges. Hon. Mélanie Joly: Thank you. Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos: Within the federal service, we Mr. René Arseneault: With your indulgence, I will not be talking know that the percentage has not yet been attained for anglophones so much about the action plan. I feel that my colleagues around the working in certain areas, compared to the population of anglophones table will do that specifically. 16 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

As you know, I represent New Brunswick. I can tell you that, in Did you get the pulse of that majority in the forum you had in New Brunswick and in Acadia, we are very proud of this plan. No Moncton, for example? Were there members of the majority community or association has complained about the action plan. We anglophone community who wanted to speak? have welcomed it almost like a life raft. Thank you very much. ● (1255) Hon. Mélanie Joly: Thank you. Hon. Mélanie Joly: There are always good organizations. I think Mr. René Arseneault: Personally, I have already turned to the that today we have here a representative of Canadian Parents for modernization of the act. Allow me to continue along those lines. French, which promotes French immersion and, by extension, bilingualism among young people. That's one thing. You mentioned consultations in five forums. I think that two of them have already been held, one in Moncton and the other in In addition, I think that we need to involve our provincial and Ottawa. There are others to come. Am I mistaken in saying that territorial counterparts to ensure that we have some representatives. online consultations have also already started? Hon. Mélanie Joly: All the major forums are accessible online. I also think that it's good that all Quebeckers believe in the That was the case for Moncton and Ottawa and it will also be the importance of official languages. case for the three other forums to come. We also take questions from Mr. René Arseneault: I'll repeat the purpose of my question. the public, from those following us on their mobile phones, at home or at work. In New Brunswick, we're not familiar with the QCGN, because Mr. René Arseneault: We have heard a lot of testimony and seen francophones constitute the minority. In addition to anglophones in a lot of documents. Each of us is beginning to have an idea of the minority communities in Quebec and francophones outside Quebec, form that the modernized act could take. how can we ensure that the majority communities on the other side will be represented at the table at the next forums to share their views So I have one burning question. From all you have heard in those and have their voices heard? two forums that you have already taken part in or the comments that have been sent to you online on the issue, what stands out most? I'm referring to what Mr. Jedwab said. It really sparked my interest. It's true that these groups aren't included in our forums. Hon. Mélanie Joly: Different things. As francophones—I feel that everyone here will feel involved—for sure we have the Hon. Mélanie Joly: You've raised a very good point. I think that responsibility to call on our anglophone colleagues and our official the government, the public and all the parties share this languages allies and convince them to take an interest in the responsibility. We must reaffirm the importance of our two official modernization of the Official Languages Act. That is certainly a languages, bilingualism, and the fact that this matter is part of our constant challenge, but I feel that we are able to meet it. We are identity and history. We must never take anything for granted. We seeing the extent to which anglophones are becoming interested in ensure our country's social cohesion by respecting our two official sending their children to French immersion schools. We have a lot of languages, minority rights and the reconciliation process with allies. That said, the 9 million francophones in the country, indigenous people. I call this a three-legged stool. These three things 10 million if you include francophones and francophiles, must must always work together. This makes our country what it is and always be looking for allies and sometimes also be mounting a ensures success. challenge when certain linguistic tensions arise. Mr. René Arseneault: Thank you. Mr. René Arseneault: That Is what you heard in the first two The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Arseneault. forums. Hon. Mélanie Joly: Yes, that is what I heard. We'll proceed with a quick round of questions. Mr. Clarke will have three minutes, Mr. Rioux will have two minutes and I also heard a lot about the importance of addressing the powers of Ms. Boucher will have two minutes. the Commissioner, for example, the importance of the Legal Challenges Program, or the way in which to develop language Mrs. Sylvie Boucher: No, I'll give my speaking time to clauses that would basically encourage compliance in federal Mr. Clarke. transfers to the provinces and territories, as well as official language The Chair: That's fine. obligations. That is why the discussions are continuing. We also heard a lot about the importance of Radio-Canada. I feel that we are Mr. Clarke, you have the floor. having good conversations and that the issue is raising a lot of interest. Mr. Alupa Clarke: Minister Joly, I was a little surprised by your response to Mr. Choquette. You said that you hoped the Mr. René Arseneault: The first thing you alluded to was the commissioner would have a generous interpretation. However, you presence of the majority community at those consultation forums. and your Prime Minister were the ones who chose the person and On Tuesday, we heard from Jack Jedwab. He is an incredible, submitted his name for the position. dynamic guy, who made me realize something I had not noticed before, though it is as plain as the nose on my face. In terms of Didn't you first determine the person's approach to official modernizing the act, he said that, when the subject was minority languages? How can you hope for something from an individual, rights, the only people at the table were those directly involved, the when you were the one who chose that person? That seems very minority. strange. I don't understand. April 4, 2019 LANG-138 17

Hon. Mélanie Joly: I don't want to correct you, Mr. Clarke, but Hon. Mélanie Joly: Ultimately, I think that the modernization is the government doesn't choose the Commissioner of Official important. Languages. Parliament chooses the Commissioner of Official Languages, because the commissioner is an agent of Parliament. Mr. Alupa Clarke: The issue is the lack of political will. The issue is your place in cabinet. Do you say these things in cabinet? Do Mr. Alupa Clarke: Yes, but you submitted the suggestion. you criticize your colleagues for these shortcomings? The 20% rate Hon. Mélanie Joly: That's the first thing. is unacceptable. A 5% rate would be understandable, by default. However, a 20% rate clearly indicates an issue. Mr. Alupa Clarke: You didn't submit three suggestions. You submitted one suggestion, Minister Joly. As I told you, people are generally happy with your investments. Hon. Mélanie Joly: I just want to say that, at the time, I asked It's the continuation of the story of the past 20 years. All action plans you the question, and you had the right to ask the candidate increase investments. However, people are telling me about your questions. That's the first thing. lack of leadership, Minister Joly. That's the serious issue right now. That's why the act must be strengthened. The current Minister of Second, since the commissioner is an agent of Parliament, I can Official Languages in the government doesn't show leadership. If only express wishes. I can't have coercive powers over the you're doing so, your colleagues aren't listening to you. commissioner. I must respect the commissioner's independence, and I encourage the commissioner to have a broad interpretation. Hon. Mélanie Joly: Mr. Clarke, you've expressed the need for leadership. Do you think that you're showing leadership with regard Mr. Alupa Clarke: That's fine, thank you. to your colleagues? I have two minutes left. Mr. Alupa Clarke: Of course. I may be wrong, but I think that I'm right. Across Canada, people Hon. Mélanie Joly: Did you share your opinion with your have mainly told me that, while they're pleased with your measures, colleague Luc Berthold when he criticized Diane Lebouthillier they find that you lack the leadership to ensure that Part VI of the act simply for speaking French? It's a shared obligation. is applied in all government agencies. Mr. Alupa Clarke: Okay, but what do you have to say about the When he met with us on Tuesday, the commissioner said that Prime Minister, who spoke only in English yesterday to 78 daughters federal agencies were following his recommendations in 80% of of the vote participants from Quebec? cases. That's fine. However, in 20% of cases, the agencies aren't Hon. Mélanie Joly: I can certainly tell you that the responses to following the recommendations or are struggling to follow them. If it the questions were in French. were 5%, I could understand. It would almost be by default. However, 20% is significant. I can also certainly tell you that the position taken by a colleague Why did the National Energy Board publish a report in English from Quebec, the member for Mégantic—L'Érable, regarding the only? The Canada Infrastructure Bank and Public Services and place of French in the House of Commons is utterly unacceptable. Procurement Canada websites display calls for tenders that are still Mr. Alupa Clarke: Yes, but you don't show leadership. riddled with mistakes in French. Why are 20% of federal agencies unable to follow the recommendations? Minister Joly, we don't The Chair: Sorry to interrupt you, but time is short. expect you to be offended by the shortcomings, but to act. You don't seem to be taking action. Mr. Rioux, you have the floor for two minutes. Hon. Mélanie Joly: I just want to tell you that the people we've Mr. Jean Rioux: Thank you, Mr. Chair. met with across the country are very happy with our reinvestments. It goes without saying. After 10 years of the Harper government, we've Minister Joly, one reason that I went into politics was the been able to ease a great deal of the anxiety in the country regarding reopening of the Royal Military College Saint-Jean. I felt that, at the the underfunding and importance of official languages. national level, it was important to ensure bilingualism in the Canadian Armed Forces. I must admit that this issue had an Of course, the shortcomings that you mentioned are frustrating economic impact on my constituency. Thank you for all the support and unacceptable. I'll keep not only criticizing them, but correcting that you provided on this issue. them. In all cases, the agencies have committed to correcting them. We've been looking at another matter. The goal of Pearson I think that this issue is part of a much broader discussion on how College in English Canada is to train young people to eventually to strengthen the powers set out in the Official Languages Act. The become agents of peace. French Canada lacks this type of institution. modernization of the act is essential given the need to determine whether we should strengthen the powers of the commissioner or What do you think about having a francophone institution that whether we should have institutions that embody the official also promotes bilingualism, in order to promote French? languages. Hon. Mélanie Joly: Thank you, Mr. Rioux. I also want to thank ● (1300) you for working very hard with our team to ensure that the Royal Mr. Alupa Clarke: In the committee, we mostly say that the main Military College Saint-Jean will now provide university-level issue, other than the act, is the lack of political will. training. 18 LANG-138 April 4, 2019

The students enrolled at the Royal Military College Saint-Jean are OIF, the second most important position in the organization. I think often Quebeckers or francophones from other parts of Canada. These that this should be acknowledged. Do I have your support? individuals will now have access to university-level training at the college. In concrete terms, this change means that the senior Some hon. members: Agreed. members of our armed forces are more likely to be francophone or The Chair: It's unanimous. even bilingual. The only other military college in the country that provides university-level training is in Kingston. Hon. Mélanie Joly: This was part of the Government of Canada's negotiations with the various member states of the Francophonie to Thank you for your support on this issue. ensure Canada's leadership role at the Sommet de la Francophonie in Regarding the project that you mentioned, I think that it's a very Yerevan, Armenia, last October. We're very proud that the interesting and very good idea. I look forward to discussing the number two at the OIF is a francophone, a Quebecker and a project further with you. Canadian. The OIF is the second largest international organization in terms of membership, after the United Nations. Mr. Jean Rioux: Thank you. The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Rioux. ● (1305) Before we finish, I want to mention how the governments of The Chair: Minister Joly, thank you for joining us today. Canada and Quebec made an excellent choice with regard to the Hon. Mélanie Joly: Thank you. It was nice to see you. number two at the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie. The Chair: Let's continue with our fine program. I want to propose that our committee congratulate our fellow Canadian Catherine Cano on her appointment as administrator of the Thank you, everyone. We'll resume our work next week.

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