Legislative Assembly of Alberta The 30th Legislature First Session Standing Committee on Resource Stewardship Public Sector Compensation Transparency Act Review Friday, October 4, 2019 9 a.m. Transcript No. 30-1-4 Legislative Assembly of Alberta The 30th Legislature First Session Standing Committee on Resource Stewardship Hanson, David B., Bonnyville-Cold Lake-St. Paul (UCP), Chair Ceci, Joe, Calgary-Buffalo (NDP), Deputy Chair Armstrong-Homeniuk, Jackie, Fort Saskatchewan-Vegreville (UCP) Feehan, Richard, Edmonton-Rutherford (NDP) Getson, Shane C., Lac Ste. Anne-Parkland (UCP) Horner, Nate S., Drumheller-Stettler (UCP)* Lovely, Jacqueline, Camrose (UCP)** Loyola, Rod, Edmonton-Ellerslie (NDP) Rehn, Pat, Lesser Slave Lake (UCP) Rosin, Miranda D., Banff-Kananaskis (UCP) Sabir, Irfan, Calgary-McCall (NDP) Schmidt, Marlin, Edmonton-Gold Bar (NDP) Sigurdson, R.J., Highwood (UCP) Singh, Peter, Calgary-East (UCP) Smith, Mark W., Drayton Valley-Devon (UCP) Turton, Searle, Spruce Grove-Stony Plain (UCP) Yaseen, Muhammad, Calgary-North (UCP) * substitution for Muhammad Yaseen ** substitution for Jackie Armstrong-Homeniuk Support Staff Shannon Dean Clerk Stephanie LeBlanc Clerk Assistant and Senior Parliamentary Counsel Teri Cherkewich Law Clerk Trafton Koenig Parliamentary Counsel Philip Massolin Clerk of Committees and Research Services Sarah Amato Research Officer Nancy Robert Research Officer Michael Kulicki Committee Clerk Jody Rempel Committee Clerk Aaron Roth Committee Clerk Karen Sawchuk Committee Clerk Rhonda Sorensen Manager of Corporate Communications Jeanette Dotimas Communications Consultant Tracey Sales Communications Consultant Janet Schwegel Managing Editor of Alberta Hansard Transcript produced by Alberta Hansard Standing Committee on Resource Stewardship Participants Alberta Securities Commission .........................................................................................................................................RS-31 David Linder, Executive Director Alberta Union of Provincial Employees ............................................................................................................................RS-37 Guy Smith, President Lauren Montgomery, Researcher Ministry of Justice and Solicitor General Corinne Carlson, Barrister and Solicitor, Legislative Reform Public Service Commission Allison Husband, Compensation Analyst, Agency Compensation and Recruitment Policy Charlene Jackson, Compensation Consultant, Classification and Compensation Policy October 4, 2019 Resource Stewardship RS-31 9 a.m. Friday, October 4, 2019 For the record I’ll note the following substitutions: Nate Horner Title: Friday, October 4, 2019 rs for Muhammad Yaseen and Jackie Lovely for Jackie Armstrong- [Mr. Hanson in the chair] Homeniuk. A few housekeeping items to address before we turn to the The Chair: Okay. Good morning. I’d like to call this meeting of business at hand. Please note that microphones are operated by the Standing Committee on Resource Stewardship to order and Hansard. Please set your cellphones and other devices to silent for welcome everyone in attendance. the duration of the meeting. Committee proceedings are live My name is David Hanson, MLA for Bonnyville-Cold Lake-St. streamed on the Internet and broadcast on Alberta Assembly TV. Paul and chair of the committee. I’d ask the members and those The audio- and video streams and transcripts of meetings can be joining the committee at the table to introduce themselves for the accessed via the Legislative Assembly website. record, and then I will call on those joining in by teleconference. Are there any changes or additions to the draft agenda? We will begin to my immediate right. If not, would somebody like to make a motion to approve the agenda? Mr. Turton: Searle Turton, MLA for the riding of Spruce Grove- Stony Plain. Mr. Turton: I’ll make the motion, Mr. Chair. Mr. M. Smith: Mark Smith, MLA, Drayton Valley-Devon. The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Turton. Moved by Mr. Turton that the agenda for the October 4, 2019, meeting of the Ms Husband: Allison Husband, compensation specialist with the Standing Committee on Resource Stewardship be adopted as Public Service Commission. distributed. All in favour? Any opposed? Thank you. That is Ms Jackson: Charlene Jackson, compensation manager with the carried. Public Service Commission. Next we have the draft minutes of our September 19 meeting. Are there any errors or omissions to note? Ms Carlson: Corinne Carlson with Justice and Solicitor General. If not, I would ask a member to make a motion to approve the minutes. Mr. Smith. Moved by Mr. Smith that the minutes of the Mr. Schmidt: Marlin Schmidt, MLA for Edmonton-Gold Bar. September 19, 2019, meeting of the Standing Committee on Resource Stewardship be approved as distributed. All in favour, Member Loyola: Rod Loyola, MLA for Edmonton-Ellerslie. please say aye. Any opposed? Thank you. That motion is carried. Mr. Feehan: Richard Feehan, MLA for Edmonton-Rutherford. Turning now to the committee’s review of the Public Sector Compensation Transparency Act, at our last meeting we agreed to Mr. Getson: Shane Getson, MLA, Lac Ste. Anne-Parkland. invite stakeholders and members of the public to make oral presentations to the committee. The caucuses were asked to submit Ms LeBlanc: Stephanie LeBlanc, Clerk Assistant and Senior lists of stakeholders to the chair and the deputy chair by 4:30 p.m. Parliamentary Counsel. on Friday, September 20. For the record the stakeholders that the committee wished to invite to participate in today’s meeting were Ms Robert: Good morning. Nancy Robert, research officer with the Alberta Securities Commission, the Alberta Union of Provincial the Legislative Assembly Office. Employees, the Alberta branch of the Canadian Taxpayers Mr. Kulicki: Good morning. Michael Kulicki, committee clerk. Federation, and the Fraser Institute. The ASC and the AUPE indicated that they desired to present to us today, so we will be The Chair: Okay. Now we’ll try and get everybody on the hearing from them this morning via teleconference. In addition, a teleconference to identify themselves. Mr. Ceci, go ahead. call for oral presentations from members of the public was sent out on Friday, September 20, through social media posts on Facebook Member Ceci: Thank you, Chair Hanson. Good morning, and Twitter as well as a media advisory. However, this call resulted everybody. Joe Ceci, MLA for Calgary-Buffalo and vice-chair. in no additional requests to appear before the committee. Our first presentation this morning will be from Mr. David The Chair: Mr. Horner. Linder, the executive director of the Alberta Securities Commission, who is joining us on the phone. Each stakeholder will Mr. Horner: Yes. Thank you, Chair. Nate Horner, MLA, be provided with five minutes to make a presentation to the Drumheller-Stettler. committee, followed by up to 40 minutes of questions from the Mr. Singh: Good morning. Peter Singh, MLA for Calgary-East. committee members. Thank you very much for joining us today, Mr. Linder. Please Ms Rosin: Hi. Good morning, everybody. It’s MLA Miranda Rosin proceed. here from Banff-Kananaskis. Alberta Securities Commission The Chair: Do we have anybody else on the line? Mr. Linder: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning. I would like to Mr. Sabir: Irfan Sabir, MLA, Calgary-McCall. commence by thanking the committee for the opportunity for the ASC to submit a response in writing and to provide oral follow-up The Chair: Thank you. comments. Having read the minutes of your numerous meetings, We also have Mr. David Linder. I’m cognizant that this issue has already involved considerable Mr. Linder: Yes, I’m here, the executive director from the Alberta discussion. Furthermore, as also indicated in the minutes, you do Securities Commission. not have a lot of time to complete your assigned tasks; accordingly, I will be brief with my submissions. Also, you’ve set a limit on me The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Linder. of five minutes. RS-32 Resource Stewardship October 4, 2019 The ASC is cognizant of the importance of transparency. Indeed, not just the top wage earners; it is, throughout, the professionals in at your last meeting, on September 19, in her briefing to the the organization who are liable to be plucked. These are often committee Ms Carlson of the Ministry of Justice made the people who the agencies have invested years and resources in to following opening comments: develop their talents. By way of overview, the Public Sector Compensation 9:10 Transparency Act requires the government of Alberta and government agencies, called public-sector bodies, to publicly Our written submission identifies other circumstances where the disclose the compensation paid to higher income employees. sunshine list makes our workplace more difficult. The fact that Public-sector bodies are also required to disclose all income paid colleagues know what each other makes contributes to dissension, to board members. The disclosure is intended to increase and time is wasted having managers explain why so-and-so makes transparency, which will help Alberta taxpayers better see how less or more than so-and-so else. It also contributes to declining their money is spent. employee morale and, ultimately, I would argue, departures. There As a result, we received what became known as the sunshine list, are difficulties in the formulas in the present sunshine list, so no doubt emanating from U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. notwithstanding that employees make the same