REPORT ON PROCEEDINGS BEFORE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 1 – PREMIER AND FINANCE MUTUAL RECOGNITION (NEW SOUTH WALES) AMENDMENT BILL 2021 UNCORRECTED At Macquarie Room, Parliament House, Sydney, on Tuesday, 27 April 2021 The Committee met at 9:30. PRESENT The Hon. Tara Moriarty (Chair) The Hon. Mark Buttigieg The Hon. Ben Franklin (Acting Deputy Chair) The Hon. Taylor Martin The Hon. Adam Searle The Hon. Walt Secord The Hon. Natalie Ward PRESENT VIA VIDEOCONFERENCE Ms Abigail Boyd The Hon. Catherine Cusack Tuesday, 27 April 2021 Legislative Council - UNCORRECTED Page 1 The CHAIR: Good morning. Welcome to the public hearing for the Portfolio Committee No. 1 inquiry into Mutual Recognition (New South Wales) Amendment Bill 2021. The inquiry has been established to consider the merits of the bill, examining issues surrounding the proposed referral of powers to the Commonwealth Parliament. Before I commence I would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people, who are the traditional custodians of this land. I would also like to pay respect to the Elders past and present of the Eora Nation and extend that respect to other Aboriginals present. Today we will hear evidence from a range of witnesses including the Productivity Commissioner, the New South Wales Cross-Border Commissioner, union representatives and industry association representatives. Today's hearing is being broadcast live via the Parliament's website. A transcript of today's hearing will be placed on the Committee's website when it becomes available. In accordance with broadcasting guidelines, while members of the media may film or record Committee members and witnesses, people in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of any filming or photography. Media representatives are reminded that they must take responsibility for what they publish about the Committee's proceedings. It is important to remember that parliamentary privilege does not apply to what witnesses may say outside of their evidence at the hearing, so I urge witnesses to be careful about any comments they make to the media or to others after they complete their evidence as such comments would not be protected by parliamentary privilege if another person decided to take an action for defamation. The guidelines for the broadcast of proceedings are available from the secretariat. All witnesses have a right to procedural fairness according to the procedural fairness resolution adopted by the House in 2018. Due to the tight time frame for this inquiry, the Committee has resolved that there will be no questions on notice for this hearing. I remind everyone here today that Committee hearings are not intended to provide a forum for people to make adverse reflections about others under the protection of parliamentary privilege. I therefore request that witnesses focus on the issues raised by the inquiry terms of reference and avoid naming individuals unnecessarily. To aid the audibility of this hearing, I remind both Committee members and witnesses to speak into the microphones. The room is fitted with induction loops compatible with hearing aid systems that have telecoil receivers. In addition, several seats have been reserved near the loudspeakers for persons in the public gallery who have hearing difficulties. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 1 – PREMIER AND FINANCE Tuesday, 27 April 2021 Legislative Council - UNCORRECTED Page 2 PETER ACHTERSTRAAT, NSW Productivity Commissioner, sworn and examined The CHAIR: I welcome our first witness. Thank you for the submission that you have provided to the inquiry. It was very helpful. You are now welcome to make a brief opening statement if you wish. Mr ACHTERSTRAAT: Thank you very much for the opportunity to say a few words in relation to the Mutual Recognition (New South Wales) Amendment Bill 2021. This is a very important piece of legislation. It is vital for the Commonwealth to then be able to pass legislation to establish uniform rules in relation to mutual recognition across the country. It is timely because not only does it improve productivity but it also helps reduce red tape for well over 100,000 people. A case study: If I was a roof tiler or a bricklayer in New South Wales and I wanted to take on a job in Queensland at the moment, the current rules under the existing mutual recognition rules would require me to contact the Queensland regulator of my trade and ask them if I could apply for a licence in Queensland. I would also have to pay a fee. I would then wait for a few weeks, up to four weeks, and then I would get the licence from the Queensland people. Once I get that licence and go on site as a bricklayer or a roof tiler or whatever, I still have to follow all of the Queensland rules. Under the proposal here, the variation is moving from mutual recognition to automatic recognition. If I have a licence in New South Wales to be a bricklayer or a roof tiler or whatever, I could automatically go and do that work in Queensland without necessarily having to wait the 28 days et cetera to get a licence. And the reciprocal—of course the person from Queensland or Victoria who has a licence to undertake a particular trade could come to New South Wales, but that is just the start. They still have to follow all the rules that any licensed tradesperson in New South Wales has to follow. They may have to have trust accounts, they may have to have fidelity, they have to follow occupational health and safety et cetera. There are three benefits. One is that there is no fee payable by people, a bit like the driver licence—you do not have to pay for a driver licence if you go into Queensland or Victoria. The recognition of the driver licence is automatic. So the first advantage is there is no fee payable. Secondly, there is more certainty. Unless you have disciplinary action against you et cetera, you know that you can go and do the work over there. You do not have to wait the 28 days. Thirdly, very importantly, under the bill there is the arrangement for the sharing of information between the regulators in relation to the appropriateness of people to hold the licence so there is a lot more data to be shared. Finally, the reason I am so pleased with this so far is because in my Productivity Commission Green Paper report that I did last year I recommended that we move from mutual recognition to automatic mutual recognition. In fact I had a fallback in there that said that if that is not accepted by all States and Territories, why doesn't New South Wales just do it by ourselves? Fortunately we do not have to do that. That would have been a clear second best because if it was only us recognising other people, that would be to the detriment of our tradespeople working elsewhere. When this legislation is eventually national, everyone does it and it works well. One clarification is that under the new rules it may well be that a regulator of a trade may say to particular tradespeople, "Please let us know before you come into our State." The legislation does not say they have to do that but the regulators—and in fact I think it is not a bad idea for the regulator of a trade to say, "If you want to come and work in our State, just send us an email and let us know." That way the regulator can then send you information in relation to any other requirements in New South Wales for working with children et cetera. I am very pleased to take questions, Chair. The CHAIR: We will open it up for questions. The Hon. WALT SECORD: Mr Achterstraat, what do you say to people who have expressed concern that instead of a lifting of boats you may in fact have a dropping of standards? What do you do with a jurisdiction that has less stringent or lower standards than New South Wales? Mr ACHTERSTRAAT: That is one of the core questions that people have been asking. I think it is a very good question. Under the existing mutual recognition, it is working. At the moment it works; there is just a bit of paperwork involved. This is not all that different. Under the mutual recognition if someone has a licence, say, in Queensland to be a plumber then they cannot come to New South Wales and be a plumber and gasfitter. They can only come and be a plumber. They have to have the same rules. Let us take the automatic recognition of electrical trades on the east coast. That is working well so you have a situation where there is already automatic recognition in Queensland, New South Wales, the Australian Capital Territory and Victoria for the electrical trade. That is working well. Others have said, Mr Secord, people might shop around and their home State may be one with a much lower bar. There are a couple of answers to that. The first one is that your home State is your principal place of residence or principal place of work, a bit like a licence. You do not have people from Victoria thinking, "I have PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 1 – PREMIER AND FINANCE Tuesday, 27 April 2021 Legislative Council - UNCORRECTED Page 3 to wait until I am 18 to get a licence. I might go and move up to New South Wales because you only have to be 17." It is very similar to the driver licence. The existing mutual recognition is working quite well except for the fact that tradespeople have to have all of these licences and all of this red tape and they have to pay all these fees, so there is not a great deal of difference on that in my view.