[Podcast Intro] Thanks for downloading a 3CR podcast. 3CR is an independent community radio station based in Melbourne, Australia. We need your financial support to keep going. Go to www.3CR.org.au for more information and to donate online. Now, stay tuned for your 3CR podcast. [Show Intro: Opening music plays. Speaker: Sally Goldner] Panoply, panorama, panpipe, pansy? Aha! Pansexual! Knowing no boundaries of sex or gender. Sound interesting? Then join Sally on Sundays at noon for Out of the Pan. All those gender questions making you think too hard? Whether it's transgender, bisexual, polyamorous, or beyond, we’ll throw those questions into the pan and cook up the answers for you. So go on, push that gender envelope, only on 3CR 855AM digital and 3CR.org.au. [Snippet of ‘Let’s Cook’ by Mental as Anything] [Song: Tunes from the Winners compilation cover by The Bushwhackers] [Speaker: Sally Goldner] 3CR, 855AM. 3CR Digital, 3CR.org.au, and 3CR On Demand, ‘Out of the Pan’ with Sally, first broadcasting noon to one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. 3CR broadcasts from the lands of the Wurundjeri people, and we pay respects to elders past, present, and emerging and hello to any Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander people tuning into the show via any means. And acknowledge that all the lands on this large island and those around were stolen and never ceded. And acknowledge that a lot of the language used on this show is of a Western Anglo-Saxon nature, and we have, of course, have had people on some of the lands who identify as sistergirls and brotherboys, others of similar of gender identity and gender expression that is way beyond the binary and there's been all sorts of lands around the world that has had that, of course, have had that since time began. ‘Out of the Pan’ is a show covering pansexual issues, knowing no boundaries of sex, gender, or genre. We opened up today with The Bushwhackers and a live version of Ned Kelly's Tunes From the Winners compilation, from way way back in 1997. And that track is still a winner. And if that woke you up on a Sunday morning, or it could be for some a sort of public holiday, or maybe you were up earlier, and now have gone back to bed after attending a pre-dawn service, which I'm going to talk about, then, well, you are awake again, hit the coffee. I've got mine on hand. The only way to do a radio show where opinions are on the program are my own and not necessarily those of organisations with which I am or have been associated. If you want to get in touch to discuss those opinions, there are ways to do it: [email protected]; you can SMS +61 45 675 1215; you can tweet @salgoldsaidso, and that's the bottom line. And you can look for posts on Facebook on my page, Sally Goldner AM, and Out of the Pan 3CR 855AM Melbourne. And might be that you know there's the potential for something triggering. We can't ignore issues sometimes on this show. So if you are, switchboard as part of the QLife Network around Australia, 1800 184 527, don't think there will be anything too big on the show today. Well, yes, today is Anzac Day, April 25th, where we acknowledge that there have been people sort of who fought and lost their lives, suffered great indignity, and we do need to acknowledge that. Now, some people will sort of go at me directly for that. Let's get something clear – as opposed to getting something straight, I'm not too good at doing that on this show – I'm not wanting to glorify war by any means, no one wants to do that. I do remember an old veteran filmed a few years ago now who said that no one wants to have to go to war, but they thought sometimes it is needed. And, you know, look if your country is threatened you might have to do something. I wish we didn't. I wish in a utopian world, there were no wars. Wars – the best comment I once heard about war was in a fictional book, it was a book by Arthur Hailey called In High Places, where someone said that war is a little man's quarrel magnified a thousand times over. Not too far off the mark in a way, you know, sort of risk of being a bit twee. And I'm quoting Jerry Springer, ‘why can't we all get along?’ Well, maybe we can. But yeah, seriously, we do need to consider why we can't, but I wanted to focus, because I think this is important, on LGBT people in military settings of any sort whether at home, whether overseas. Now again, totally acknowledging that of course it would be awful to be in a war. If you're sort of some hand-to-hand soldier to use the older version of war or, heaven forbid, you know, we don't know what's often gone on, you know, has there been times where we have been at the proverbial one second to midnight and someone with some degree of responsibility has known that we were very close to a new thermonuclear war or something, nothing is impossible. And in that sense, you know, wow, what a difficult scenario in which to be, and I think that needs to be considered, but going more specifically for the communities of which this show is a focus. Now, what an interesting, a terrible scenario, if you – we all know how hard it is, if you can't be out safely as your – I'll stick for this one with – gender identity and expression, sexual romantic orientation. I don't know if intersex would come into this. It may, it may not, I don't want to speak and, you know, sort of get it wrong, but we all know that it's not, you know, if you can be out safely, that's much better than tearing yourself apart internally by trying to be someone you're not. And I think that, you know, we've got mountains of much personal stories and research about all of those things. Now take that further. You're in a war zone or you're in some pressure situation, what a difficult scenario. And I was thinking about that, you know, this morning and how difficult that would have been. And now, we hear about the difficult issue of veteran mental health and more, and one wonders again, if that's, you know, sort of extrapolated further for our rainbow veterans. And it was unfortunate that I didn't think of these issues until a couple of days ago, I would have had the fabulous Noah Riseman on the show who's done lots of work in terms of, I'll say rainbow in the Australian armed forces and also lots of great work on trans history as well, which I think is so important, a great academic and cisgender ally to the trans community. But if you are those people now I would admit that my limited experience of anything quasi-military, I did have to do two years of Cadets at the school I was at, and it was not a happy experience. I mean, the entire school really was not a happy experience, but lots of reasons not to want to do two years of Cadets, let me assure you. For example, you had to give up a week of your, what was in the old days the term two holidays. Seriously, all the same for all the talk, the guy – I can still hear this guy who was the guy at our school who was in charge of Cadets saying, ‘this is not a mini-Army,’ he used to say. Well it was, you know, people pulled rank. There was no real selection on merit from either the teachers who ran it or the students. One guy said, one time – someone was asked, ‘who wants to be a sergeant,’ out of one of these students, someone just put up their hand as a joke and said, well, go down to the store and get some stripes out. Gee, that's how we promote people? Good human resources practice there, not. But there are the horrible things that, you know, where I saw misuse of power and will say, toxic masculinity misuse of power. This is, you know, a scenario which may sound funny. But on the first cadet camp when I was in, what was then called form three – said the oldie – now year nine, someone did not want to use the latrines for whatever reason and went off and did what they had to do in the bush. And the big colonel from base camp came up to inspect our area. Unfortunately, he was not someone to stick to the beaten tracks and put his foot in it. And as a result, all of the people were pulled out of bed, at 11:30 at night, asked to stand in what was about two degrees, frosty night temperatures, including one guy who was told ‘you have to get there now’ and only had a shirt and jocks on and thankfully, someone gave him a greatcoat. This is military. It doesn't – when you have that sort of misuse of power in such a toxic masculinity hierarchical way, I admit my judgment of military might be clouded.