[Podcast Intro] Thanks for downloading a 3CR podcast. 3CR is an independent community radio station based in Melbourne, Australia. We need your financial support to keep going. Go to www.3CR.org.au for more information and to donate online. Now, stay tuned for your 3CR podcast.
[Show Intro: Opening music plays. Speaker: Sally Goldner]
Panoply, panorama, panpipe, pansy? Aha! Pansexual! Knowing no boundaries of sex or gender. Sound interesting? Then join Sally on Sundays at noon for Out of the Pan. All those gender questions making you think too hard? Whether it's transgender, bisexual, polyamorous, or beyond, we’ll throw those questions into the pan and cook up the answers for you. So go on, push that gender envelope, only on 3CR 855AM digital and 3CR.org.au.
[Snippet of ‘Let’s Cook’ by Mental as Anything]
[Song: Tunes from the Winners compilation cover by The Bushwhackers]
[Speaker: Sally Goldner] 3CR, 855AM. 3CR Digital, 3CR.org.au, and 3CR On Demand, ‘Out of the Pan’ with Sally, first broadcasting noon to one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. 3CR broadcasts from the lands of the Wurundjeri people, and we pay respects to elders past, present, and emerging and hello to any Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander people tuning into the show via any means. And acknowledge that all the lands on this large island and those around were stolen and never ceded. And acknowledge that a lot of the language used on this show is of a Western Anglo-Saxon nature, and we have, of course, have had people on some of the lands who identify as sistergirls and brotherboys, others of similar of gender identity and gender expression that is way beyond the binary and there's been all sorts of lands around the world that has had that, of course, have had that since time began.
‘Out of the Pan’ is a show covering pansexual issues, knowing no boundaries of sex, gender, or genre. We opened up today with The Bushwhackers and a live version of Ned Kelly's Tunes From the Winners compilation, from way way back in 1997. And that track is still a winner. And if that woke you up on a Sunday morning, or it could be for some a sort of public holiday, or maybe you were up earlier, and now have gone back to bed after attending a pre-dawn service, which I'm going to talk about, then, well, you are awake again, hit the coffee. I've got mine on hand. The only way to do a radio show where opinions are on the program are my own and not necessarily those of organisations with which I am or have been associated. If you want to get in touch to discuss those opinions, there are ways to do it: [email protected]; you can SMS +61 45 675 1215; you can tweet @salgoldsaidso, and that's the bottom line. And you can look for posts on Facebook on my page, Sally Goldner AM, and Out of the Pan 3CR 855AM Melbourne.
And might be that you know there's the potential for something triggering. We can't ignore issues sometimes on this show. So if you are, switchboard as part of the QLife Network around Australia, 1800 184 527, don't think there will be anything too big on the show today.
Well, yes, today is Anzac Day, April 25th, where we acknowledge that there have been people sort of who fought and lost their lives, suffered great indignity, and we do need to acknowledge that. Now, some people will sort of go at me directly for that. Let's get something clear – as opposed to getting something straight, I'm not too good at doing that on this show – I'm not wanting to glorify war by any means, no one wants to do that. I do remember an old veteran filmed a few years ago now who said that no one wants to have to go to war, but they thought sometimes it is needed. And, you know, look if your country is threatened you might have to do something. I wish we didn't. I wish in a utopian world, there were no wars. Wars – the best comment I once heard about war was in a fictional book, it was a book by Arthur Hailey called In High Places, where someone said that war is a little man's quarrel magnified a thousand times over. Not too far off the mark in a way, you know, sort of risk of being a bit twee. And I'm quoting Jerry Springer, ‘why can't we all get along?’ Well, maybe we can. But yeah, seriously, we do need to consider why we can't, but I wanted to focus, because I think this is important, on LGBT people in military settings of any sort whether at home, whether overseas.
Now again, totally acknowledging that of course it would be awful to be in a war. If you're sort of some hand-to-hand soldier to use the older version of war or, heaven forbid, you know, we don't know what's often gone on, you know, has there been times where we have been at the proverbial one second to midnight and someone with some degree of responsibility has known that we were very close to a new thermonuclear war or something, nothing is impossible. And in that sense, you know, wow, what a difficult scenario in which to be, and I think that needs to be considered, but going more specifically for the communities of which this show is a focus.
Now, what an interesting, a terrible scenario, if you – we all know how hard it is, if you can't be out safely as your – I'll stick for this one with – gender identity and expression, sexual romantic orientation. I don't know if intersex would come into this. It may, it may not, I don't want to speak and, you know, sort of get it wrong, but we all know that it's not, you know, if you can be out safely, that's much better than tearing yourself apart internally by trying to be someone you're not. And I think that, you know, we've got mountains of much personal stories and research about all of those things.
Now take that further. You're in a war zone or you're in some pressure situation, what a difficult scenario. And I was thinking about that, you know, this morning and how difficult that would have been. And now, we hear about the difficult issue of veteran mental health and more, and one wonders again, if that's, you know, sort of extrapolated further for our rainbow veterans. And it was unfortunate that I didn't think of these issues until a couple of days ago, I would have had the fabulous Noah Riseman on the show who's done lots of work in terms of, I'll say rainbow in the Australian armed forces and also lots of great work on trans history as well, which I think is so important, a great academic and cisgender ally to the trans community.
But if you are those people now I would admit that my limited experience of anything quasi-military, I did have to do two years of Cadets at the school I was at, and it was not a happy experience. I mean, the entire school really was not a happy experience, but lots of reasons not to want to do two years of Cadets, let me assure you. For example, you had to give up a week of your, what was in the old days the term two holidays. Seriously, all the same for all the talk, the guy – I can still hear this guy who was the guy at our school who was in charge of Cadets saying, ‘this is not a mini-Army,’ he used to say. Well it was, you know, people pulled rank. There was no real selection on merit from either the teachers who ran it or the students. One guy said, one time – someone was asked, ‘who wants to be a sergeant,’ out of one of these students, someone just put up their hand as a joke and said, well, go down to the store and get some stripes out. Gee, that's how we promote people? Good human resources practice there, not.
But there are the horrible things that, you know, where I saw misuse of power and will say, toxic masculinity misuse of power.
This is, you know, a scenario which may sound funny. But on the first cadet camp when I was in, what was then called form three – said the oldie – now year nine, someone did not want to use the latrines for whatever reason and went off and did what they had to do in the bush. And the big colonel from base camp came up to inspect our area. Unfortunately, he was not someone to stick to the beaten tracks and put his foot in it. And as a result, all of the people were pulled out of bed, at 11:30 at night, asked to stand in what was about two degrees, frosty night temperatures, including one guy who was told ‘you have to get there now’ and only had a shirt and jocks on and thankfully, someone gave him a greatcoat.
This is military. It doesn't – when you have that sort of misuse of power in such a toxic masculinity hierarchical way, I admit my judgment of military might be clouded. Now of course there are good people everywhere, and not so good people, and all points in between, because we don't believe in binaries. And I'm sure there are good people in the military and there are good LGBT – I will say rainbow people in military settings as well. And yet, one wonders, is it not so much war or military but is it misuse where power is not used properly?
I remember once talking with a lesbian who is in the armed forces and said, no, you have the right to refuse an unlawful command. Well, lawful and unlawful could be vague but they were also fair that if you could stand up to it, maybe that's what got you through. But when I think about some of the things military, yes, it's a difficult horrible role but, you know, what do you do? And if you aren't out in the military, then what happens? So thoughts to think about for this particular program on Anzac Day but remembering that responsibility so often lies at the top. And when people don't use that responsibility wisely, that's where we could get in trouble.
Welcome your thoughts on all those means of communication. Let's run through them once again: [email protected]; SMS +61 45 675 1215; tweet @salgoldsaidso, and that's the bottom line. And also look for posts on Facebook, my page Sally Goldner, and Out of the Pan 3CR 855AM Melbourne.
In the meantime proving that we are music of diverse genres. We opened up with Ned Kelly's tunes from The Bushwhackers. Let's have one that's interesting. This guy's more noted for his sort of comedy, but he did a serious track, some years ago, Col Elliot of all people, and I don't want to be jingoistic or anything, but, ‘What Have You Done for Australia?’ 3CR, 855AM. 3CR Digital, 3CR.org.au, and 3CR On Demand, ‘Out of the Pan’ with Sally.
[Song: ‘What Have You Done for Australia?’ by Col Elliott]
[Speaker: 3CR, voice one] I really am not understanding why people aren’t seeing the fact that prisons are an integral part of a public health response to a pandemic. Like you I'm really concerned about whether the data is being released honestly about illnesses within prison. I have suspicions it's not, but really we need very strong leadership in this country that actually cares about people inside, our most vulnerable populations inside. That's what we need and that's not what we're getting right now.
[Speaker: 3CR, voice two] We need to keep radical voices on air. Subscribe now. Go to 3CR.org.au/subscribe or call the station on 9419 8377.
[Speaker: 3CR, voice three] You know, there's people like you said, have been on casual for seven years. Well, it's supposed to be casual employment. People want full- time jobs. They don't want to be sitting there casual, not knowing they're going to get any, any days, any leave or what whatsoever, especially you look at all the casuals in our industry at the moment is sitting home and people want full-time employment, they should be entitled to full-time employment.
[Speaker: 3CR, voice four] And look at all the people who were used and abused as casuals in the aged care sector and all the problems that are facing people in there and all the deaths that are following.
[Speaker: 3CR, voice three] In the meatworks that – a lot of that's casuals, labour hire, you know, your blokes are traveling around, you know, we want full-time positions and that's and people want it. We want to be full-time employed. We want to have the Christmas holidays, you want to have time with your family, but when you're a casual you get none of that.
[Speaker: 3CR, voice five] You're listening to 3CR community radio 885AM on digital and online. 3CR radical radio.
[Speaker: Sally Goldner] That is indeed us, 3CR radical radio on you’re listening to [email protected] is the email address to get in touch with us. You're listening to us by one of four means on 855AM digital, 3CR.org.au, and 3CR On Demand and 3CR.org.au means you could be listening to the podcast or the repeat, or you could be listening live to the repeat of this program which is five am Australian Eastern Standard Time on Wednesday morning. Check your time zone converter for local guides or something like that.
Yeah, casualised workforce. The thought struck me listening to that message that people in the military, you know, are often offered lots of pay and conditions and yet people who do just as valuable work elsewhere, might get less, you know, we all have a right to some equivalent degree of job security and to be valued.
But interesting, whilst we were listening to Col Elliott. I did check in on any news for any messages. And there's an interesting article today in the Guardian called ‘The Anzac who spoke truth to power and called for an end to the war’ published at six o'clock this morning – and I honestly did not see this, because it's in my midday bulletin, which comes in just as the show starts – and about how Private Ted Ryan, he’s interesting, a mine worker and unionist from Broken Hill, who publicly urged Britain to make a negotiated settlement with Germany in World War One.
‘Newton considers the numerous diplomatic opportunities Westminster turned its back on. Britain did so, he argues with compelling evidence, to indulge the imperial ambitions a soundly defeated Germany would give rise to in Palestine, Persia, Mesopotamia, Africa and the Pacific.’
End quote.
So that's a very interesting thing, that you had people try to stand up from the underdog position and get shut down. Yeah. Sound a bit like queers, unionists, environmental [unclear], animal advocates remembering that ‘Freedom of Species’ comes up at one o'clock. Crushed by people in positions of power, Hmmmm, people who misuse power, it’s a bit of a big theme isn't it?
Well, sometimes though you do get the power and I had a bit of that this week as part of my life being oot and aboot. I don't just go swimming three times a week and, as I did yesterday, have seagulls swimming in the vacant lane next to me; I do do things! And I got to say, I did a very nice thing on Thursday night. Midsumma is underway. Check out the Midsumma guide, you can get a spreadsheet online said the accounting wonk to help you plan. I'll be off to see Yana Alana during the week, which has got to be good at any time. Midsumma mid-late mid to late Autumn or otherwise which is of course, the running joke this year. But yeah, hopefully we'll be back on schedule, for January next year.
And the thing I did on Thursday night, I was on a panel of intergenerational trans people, so we had oneself as the fifty-five-and-a-half-year-old physical years; Michelle McNamara from Transgender Victoria – declaring my interest as a paid employee of that organisation, although this was us as individuals – as someone who's in her 60s; and Mira who's a – I'm not sure if I have permission to quote Mira's name on air, but as someone who's a youth worker and mentor at queerspace in Carlton.
So it was really really interesting. Like it did strike me that this is something we need more of. I think there are genuine, often genuine, misunderstandings between people that I mean – one big one of course is language in the what is now called, to a large extent, not totally, and of course, every, and this is the whole point. We now call the T trans and gender diverse to ensure that people beyond the proverbial binary of either/or, male or female, are represented. There's language issues.
Some people don't like the word transsexual. Now, if an individual uses that, and that's usually, if not totally, someone say 40 and above because that's all they had when they came out, that’s what helped keep them alive. You can't say ‘well, that label’s not right anymore, stop using it’. Everyone has a right to their labels. And big shout out to someone, Cody Smith, who's a Canberra person as part of our rainbow communities. Cody ran a panel. I remember this because it was the last panel discussion at the last big in person queer conference we had before COVID and lockdown last year, Better Together in Melbourne at Williamstown Town Hall. And you know, Cody bravely chaired/facilitated a panel/forum on labels, terminology, definitions. Now talk about medals for bravery, I think you deserve one there Cody because that's a big topic, but handled it really well. And the one point that was said that if a label gives something to someone, then isn't that the main thing?
And you know there's room for lots of labels. Abundance theory is my word. One of my friends and colleagues in rainbow communities, Mellem Rose, puts this really well and did so once on this show. You can try to force a cat into a box and it won't go. But if you put out 17 boxes, the cat will just find the box that works for it and the cat will fall fast asleep, and we love cat analogies, crazy cat lady here who misses my pussy cat who left us in the middle of last year.
Seriously, I think that's a really good point on labels that lets if – everyone's entitled to have their own label. And there are people who legitimately use the word, which some people will find offensive and some people and – tranny. Now, if that's what the person uses, they have a right to use it, but don't ever use it otherwise is best, is the best rule. Because it is not considered appropriate, except if that person uses it.
So we talked about that. There seems to be though a bit of a misapprehension. I don't know where this has come from, because I don't know anyone who said it, that because we've got some of the law reforms on the book, such as anti-discrimination law and birth certificate reforms in Victoria, and Victoria as part of five out of Australia's eight states and territories, that it's largely all over. Well, I don't know if anyone's ever said that to the trans and gender diverse community. Let me just put it on the proverbial record because I know I haven't, and never would say that because, you know, sort of, we know we've got a long way to go. We know there's plenty of social indicators of mental health, of unemployment and underemployment, trauma, all these things. And so hopefully a panel like this and communication helps clear it up.
So yeah, there is the – where we need to be on all of these things that you know, communication, there were lots of other things discussed about how, the value that intergenerational learning brings. I say this a lot, I'll say it again, that to see younger trans people out and we heard from a young trans person and that there's – I heard in the last few days of a trans person beginning their affirmation at less than five years old, which is just wonderful. That was unimaginable for someone like me 15 years ago. When I say me I'd met three out trans and gender diverse people under 25. So we'll say 20 to 25 bracket. Of course, if people are able to get on and be themselves earlier, there's less stress and psychological damage with which to deal later on. So really, really important that we have those sorts of conversations.
That's a conversation that I’ve had, it is now about the eighth year at least, maybe ninth including last year, where I go to Melbourne Uni and have a chat to anthropology students every year, along with other people, including the awesome Nevo Zisin, Amanda Marks, and unfortunately, Laura wasn't able to make it this year, because that's another perspective again. And the situation there is that there is progress, yes, it’s happening. But when we have people who have the views that we're hearing a lot of the time in, as an educator we are still somewhat, it's a 101 or maybe 102 and a half or something and that's fair enough, every level of knowledge is valid. But the questions from this group were just like outstanding, they were at 505 or something or 707 – that sounds like a jet liner or something. There could be a Steve Miller song in that.
Seriously there is that sense of hope and that's where, you know, it's wonderful to see that. No, it's not all over. Yes, we'll have to keep striving. And if we've learnt one thing in the last few years, it's that we just cannot ever be complacent ever again. You know, we've seen things in Australia, such as the Howard era, and Trump in America.
So it was really good to sort of be out and about, but as long as we are put just in here taking the proverbial steps forward. There's some people say well, isn't it one step forward, two steps backward? If we don't take the steps forward, it's three steps backwards or something like that, you can call that good accounting if you want, I will leave that one there. So there are good things happening out there as well.
One thing that I was doing a lot of during the week. Last week I played a track from George Michael’s album, Songs of the 20th Century. And as sometimes I do I keep the album in, you know, take it with me, keep it in the car and I – sometimes when you buy an album, you play a few tracks, you forget the others. Well, I was driving oot and aboot this week and picked up this track and it's just stuck with me. This is just beautiful, George Michael’s version of a song that was originally recorded by U2 and Luciano Pavarotti, Passengers, ‘Miss Sarajevo’, sit back and chill and maybe even have the handkerchief and tissues on hand for this one because it is just amazing. 3CR, 855AM. 3CR Digital, 3CR.org.au, and 3CR On Demand, ‘Out of the Pan’ with Sally.
[Song: ‘Miss Sarajevo’, cover by George Michael.]
[Speaker: Sally Goldner:] 3CR light and easy, oh, yeah. ‘Out of the Pan’ on 3CR, 855AM. 3CR Digital, 3CR.org.au, and 3CR On Demand, ‘Out of the Pan’ with Sally, first broadcasting noon till one Sunday, Australian Eastern Standard Time. George Michael, from the album Songs of the 20th Century and ‘Miss Sarajevo’, originally recorded by U2 and Pavarotti as Passengers, ‘Miss Sarajevo’.
Well, Miss, Ms, or Mrs, tomorrow, the 26th of April is Lesbian Day of Visibility. In the vacant space between my ears this fleeted in and out, and then I was reminded of it again because there's been some nice chalking on the streets of Ballarat, Lesbian Day of Visibility, 26/4, Respect Her. What, pretty awesome, that – my best sort of rich manor voice, pretty awesome chalking that, marvellous effort. 264, 26/4, or something like that.
But seriously, Lesbian Day of Visibility. I think this is a day that along with International Lesbian Day in October doesn't get enough sort of conversation and, you know, it and lesbians are a vital part of our community just as much as any other part. Now, in the trans community, there can be a bit of a tendency to think of lesbians in the context of the dreaded radical feminist type of so-called lesbians. And of course that's not helpful because there are a wide range of lesbians, the same as people of all groups. And I've had lots of support from lesbians as part of support from cis women in my – all my life journeys to be perfectly honest, and that's been really important to me. So I think that we do need to do more to honour our lesbian community. I'm hoping to have someone who is part of that community on in the next couple of weeks. Like this time last year when we were in lockdown, had someone who I hugely admire, Karen Field who was talking as herself, but last year was on in the capacity – sorry, I should say last year was on in her capacity as an individual, but of course, is CEO of Drummond Street Services and queerspace.
And so now we need that visibility and for all of us and we still do. Yes, it is fair to say that oh, if we're just doing one dimensional for a second, gays and lesbians are perhaps in Australia progressed further than sort of groups, like bi, trans and gender diverse, intersex and others, no question, but we still need visibility for all of us, really, really important, discussed that on the show last week. So yeah, happy Lesbian Day of Visibility tomorrow to lesbians and allies and may you have the visibility that you want. So really important.
Let's have – so tomorrow is the day in the words of Margaret Urlich, to quote a track from her album, Safety in Numbers, is the day of we're talking numbers where you are number one and you can dance all night. 3CR, 855AM. 3CR Digital, 3CR.org.au, and 3CR On Demand, ‘Out of the Pan’ with Sally.
[Song: ‘Number One (Remember When We Danced All Night)’ by Margaret Urlich]
[Speaker: 3CR voice six] [ID in Turkish] a Turkish eco-feminist approach to dismantle the toxic misconception of ‘the good immigrant’. Intrigued? Well, so are we. ‘The Good Immigrant’ is broadcasted in Turkish every Thursday between 6:30 pm to 7 pm. Tell your friends and family, because you have a date with Özesu and Özgü. 3CR 855AM, Thursdays 6:30 pm to 7 pm. See y'all then.
[The song ‘Hold That Line’ by Geoff Francis and Peter Hicks plays under the following May Day message]
[Speaker: 3CR voice seven] Every year on May Day, 3CR joins communities from around the globe to celebrate the achievements of the Labor movement and to show solidarity with the struggle for workplace rights, and of course fair working conditions for everyone.
[Speaker: 3CR voice eight] Why is it important to celebrate May Day? Well, because we celebrate and enjoy understanding the history, the present-day fight, and the future battles, because we haven't won yet.
[Speaker: 3CR voice seven] So tune in from 7 am on Saturday the first of May.
[Speaker: 3CR voice eight] It's more important than ever to celebrate May Day will be fighting for a long time. So come and join us, and happy May Day from 3CR.
[Speaker: Sally Goldner] 3CR, 855AM. 3CR Digital, 3CR.org.au, and 3CR On Demand, ‘Out of the Pan’ with Sally. Nearing the end of this episode of ‘Out of the Pan’, which broadcasts noon til one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. Prior to the messages, we heard from Margaret Urlich and ‘Number One (Remember When We Danced All Night)’. So yes, once again to those wanting to dance for International Lesbian Visibility Day tomorrow, lesbian or ally, dance your little rainbow socks off or something like that.
At one o'clock on Sundays on 3CR is ‘Freedom of Species’ and having a chat to the ‘Freedom of Species’ crew. And I forgot to thank the crew from ‘Out of the Blue’, who dive deep for marine news from 11:30 to noon every Sunday on the show. They’ve got a really cool interview lined up and ready to rock with Ash Nayate, who's a clinical neuropsychologist who looks at self-care for activists, particularly vegan/vegetarian. But of course, we know that activist burnout – speaking from experience – can happen for people in all forms whether it’s environment, vegan, queer, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, disability and you've got to look after yourself. So she'll have some self-care tips. So keep your devices of any sort – transistor radios, if you're still working through to your digital tran – and all points in between and beyond and podcasting devices locked onto ‘Freedom of Species’ once this show ends soon.
But yes, May Day coming up next Saturday. No, it's not to quote Airplane!/Flying Higher, ‘It's a parade. And there's lots of big things happening. Thanks Johnny.’ No, not quite. As a very important day. And so, that's next Saturday, is 3CR’s, special broadcast, it's good to have those. And on Sunday May the second, you can be on your way to assemble at 1:30 outside Trades Hall and you can listen to ‘Out of the Pan’ next week and assemble outside Trades Hall to come and support May Day activities.
Other events that are on prior on previous days, you can join a wreath-laying at the Eight Hour Monument, Victoria Street, opposite Trades Hall on this Thursday, April 29th, at 5 pm and then in Trades Hall an international solidarity event at 6 pm. Bring banners, placards, friends, and family. So really important. And that message distributed around this station from May Day Committee Secretary Len Cooper, Len Coop, [email protected] for more information and we really need to support all sorts of things there.
Lots of queer events coming on. The Shed is happening today, also events gradually coming back online soon which will be good. I'm hoping to get – should add that the Bi Discussion Group will be on Zoom again this Tuesday night, the 27th, look for the links and register via Eventbrite via Bi Alliance’s Facebook page, and you'll get a link, and I could get a bit of rhyming slang, you'll get a Colonel Klink oh, goodness me governess.
Anyway, yeah, join in on that. And we're hoping to start having every two events each month, one face-to-face and one Zoom. Who knows, we might do a non-binary event down the track. Other events coming up, The Shed is on for trans men, check [ftmshed.com.au], Poly social, and of course, get your dose of queer TV this Friday nights on 3144, which is rolling along. So, there is things coming back after last year, which is so needed.
So, yeah, it's been a busy show today. If you've got thoughts from you, if you're listening via podcast repeat or, you know, sort of on demand during the week, pop them through to me, those means of communication once again: [email protected]; SMS +61 45 675 1215; tweet @salgoldsaidso, or pop under the posts on Facebook, on my page, Sally Goldner, or Out of the Pan 3CR 855AM Melbourne.
And I better get out of here and make way for ‘Freedom of Species’ and their guest Ash Nayate and take it out today with Midnight Oil. We’ll do sort of reclaim Anzac Day with the track from The Makarrata Project album of last year. ‘Come on Down’. What a great way to do it. Thanks for turning into ‘Out of the Pan’. I'm Sally Goldner, catch you next week.
[Song: ‘Uluru Statement from the Heart / Come on Down’ by Midnight Oil, featuring Pat Anderson, Stan Grant, Adam Goodes, Ursula Yovich and Troy Cassar-Daley]