[un]phased Podcast Episode 21:

Release date: February 2, 2021

Speakers: Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, Dr. Lisa Ingarfield, Heather McTeer Toney

Shaunna Payne Gold: So Lisa, we have an exciting guest coming on the podcast today. I am super excited about her.

Lisa Ingarfield: Well, I know that we don't have guests very often, so when we do they are amazing, so tell me a little bit more about who we have today.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Oh, this is a good one, this is a good one, we have Heather McTeer Toney, she is part of the fast chicks tri club, but a lot of people don't know that she's a politician, she's an attorney, a civil servant, she served in President 's Environmental Protection Agency as a regional admin. So let's just say we're going to be overlapping diversity, endurance, and the environment today.

**intro music**

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold: I’m Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, and I go by she/her/her pronouns.

Dr. Lisa Ingarfield: And I’m Dr. Lisa Ingarfield, and I go by she/her/hers.

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold: Welcome to [un]phased, a podcast to disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance.

**intro music**

Lisa Ingarfield: Alright, so Heather, one of the things, I mean Shaunna said we've been talking about this for a long time, that for, one of the things that came up for me. Well, I went to, I didn't compete in Kona, I’m not that good, I went to Kona two years ago and I was I just felt uncomfortable with the way in which the small Hawaiian island was like inundated with primarily white people, and the trash cans were overflowing right, and and just felt like there was this complete lack of awareness, deference, concern, respect for like the Island and for the people who live on the island right. Like Ironman like tries to brush away the folks experiencing homelessness you know, like it just felt gross and I just I had like kind of a dirty feeling about it. And that has like stayed with me. And then I have started to look at trail running and running and thinking about the connection to the environment and the ways in which you know the land, particularly the land that it belongs to indigenous communities right that white people took away and then white run it. I don't know, I don't have very, my thoughts aren't clear but I just feel like there's a lot to talk about.

Shaunna Payne Gold: mm hmm yeah.

Heather McTeer Toney: Yes. There is a a lot to talk about, and you know it's a you're doing what I think of as the initial connectors. And that is through all of our senses you're going to smell it, touch it, taste it, feel it, see it, and that's how you connect to not only the environment, but what are the concerns, issues around the environment.

Shaunna Payne Gold: mm hmm.

Heather McTeer Toney: I’m a triathlete, I'm a woman of color, and I'm an environmentalist, and so I see all these things connecting together in a way that sometimes we just ignore, so I think to start addressing what you're talking about and that's what you're seeing in those interactions in the environment. Sort of big race and then what's really going on in the spaces, we have to talk about two different things, and I think it's important for us to first sort of set the table and define what it is. There is environmentalism, is a term we hear a lot. And there's another term, that is, I think, newer that people are starting to understand and that's climate justice. And so there's a difference between the two. Environmental justice is dealing with issues that have an environmental impact right around the places where you live. When you think of environmental justice or environmental injustices you're thinking about that landfill that may be in the in the community of color, those overflowing trash cans, the toxics, the chemicals, the plants that can be located in and around communities of color that traditionally in places where you don't have a lot of permitting. So those things that you taste and you feel and you see that are dirty or nasty when we're out running or biking, I've got a great story about Louisville Ironman that I'll tell you about, swimming, um that's dealing with environmental justice. That's one so let's put that those issues in one box. There's another box that's very important that impacts triathlon and athletes as well and racing as well and that’s climate and climate justice. Now that's one that is longer term and it deals with the actual experiences that we see with weather actions, weather interactions and impacts the communities that are not in a as good of an infrastructural position to be able to ward that off. So with respect to racing, that's how many of us have races canceled where this, right, because there was a whole lot of rain, the river flows weren't good, and they didn't allow us to swim. Or those times that folks have had to cut a bike because there was too much smoke or a race got canceled as a result of smoke or hurricanes that have come through. And if we really look at the numbers, we will see that that has increased actually substantially over the past 10 to 15 years, so much so that there's a shift in where we're doing these races, how we're doing these races, and then here's what is the infrastructure basis that that community had in place to be able to sustain it. So that part of what you're thinking about all of those people who are coming in town bringing their family, all of their stuff, how is that impacting either sustaining or harming infrastructure of that community. Because once all those folks they got the full to protect themselves from future climate and problems at the same time you've got business and government who want to see all of these people. Man that's right, you know they want this, but they also want to make sure that their streets aren't broken down after we leave, they want to make sure that races aren't canceled in the next four to five years and they they can get long contracts, but that they have sustainable infrastructure so strong and solid, to be able to maintain it. So that's the climate justice part, communities that have a strong tax base and that are typically more white than others, they can they can sustain that. So you'll notice like in 20 well, we have 2020 it was crazy because that was covid, but when we were all sort of planning our 2020 race schedules and you know you'll notice, we were all sort of going back and forth it's just gonna be a new year there's new race there, I was really, I'm in the south, so I was really excited to race the first Ironman 70.3 in Memphis and it got canceled due to covid. But just the whole idea of opening up to different places and the primary concern everybody had what was the infrastructure going to look like, is my swim going to get canceled, am I going to be able to run, what's that run route going to be like. And the people who are thinking and planning this out have to think about things. Like are we running by a toxic chemical plant, are we running in an air that we have a place where we have to monitor the air, we have athletes that are disabled cancer survivors who deal with asthma and they have to be cognizant of the spaces where they are.

Shaunna Payne Gold: mm hmm.

Heather McTeer Toney: All things that are taken into place, taking into account, when we're thinking about racing, we just don't realize it. So let's put out the let's put just put away the stereotype right stereotype right now, if you are a triathlete, a runner, ultra-runner, a cyclist, a swimmer, you do anything that is outside and engaging the elements, you are an environmentalist, whether you like it or not.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Look Heather I said the other day that we're environmentalists and we're meteorologists trying to figure out what the weather is going to be in, because you know I'm feeling your point really clearly, because if you recall that was one of the things that we had a challenge with Ironman 70.3 is that we were scheduled to race and then hurricane Florence came through about a month before the race. And so what was fascinating to me, I was less disappointed that the race was cancelled because I kind of felt it coming. they were waiting you know a little late to let us know that was going to be canceled, but the other piece to it was that I was thinking, as I was watching the coverage because in August of that year I'd gone to training camp on the very same course and then I'm watching on the news,the very same course that I just ridden on and so that straightaway that I was on for 20 miles is now its own river, right, or you know the swim that I just finished up for training camp now you cannot see the shore that we walked out from anymore, because it's just not there. And so you know some of those things that I was thinking about, I was thinking to myself, if I lived there, how would I handle this what would I do, what if I didn't have that 20 miles of straight away to drive back and forth to work then how would I get to work, you know. There are real life people, going back to your point Lisa, there are real live people that live and call home the places that we just come to visit for a race and what does that mean, what are we leaving them with. In ways, and I know some things we cannot affect you know some of it we can't but much of it we can, so how can we affect that. I'm sorry but I don't see athletes getting their medal and then turn back around and going to help with trash, we just we don't. And so what could we possibly do to support these folks that they would want to see us come back, I always want to leave a place kind of better than we found it, but what can we do to make them want to allow us to come back and and have this privilege of racing in their city or their town.

Heather McTeer Toney: Yeah no that's a great question and it digs right into the heart of altruism. We, I love triathlon because to me it is an altruistic sport, I have, of all the sports I've ever competed in triathlon is those was the one sport that you can be in the back of the pack peddling your little heart out and someone will come up to you and say keep going you're going to make it it's going to be good, right and I just really enjoy that. That same altruistic spirit is what we have to bring to the communities that we visit, that same sense of altruism that we have for one another can be shared with the communities, and we have to express to the race directors to the organizations that this is what we, this is what we want, and this is what we desire. I think there are a number of things that I see athletes doing already that are trying to have some impact. Most athletes tend to try to be somewhat healthy because racing requires it, and nobody wants to train for 12 months, six months for a race and there on the day of and then something happens. We all know the saying, you race the race you’re given, you know we can't control all the elements but we sure as hell prepare for them. In that process, we have to train in a way that creates that altruism that we want to live in that community. So that means that we want to make sure we are not getting these disposable plastic water bottles when all of us are doing none or something special that we put in our special water bottles, but on race day we find these disposable things and we leave them off on the side of the road, even though every single day that you're you're training that's not what you do. So, we want to find ways that we can take that same spirit of what we do while we're training and transfer it into those spaces. I think we can also do a really good job of respecting and understand what is this community doing, what are they working on, what are they trying to to move forward on in this space, how can we help. Sometimes, I think we get the attitude of we're doing them a favor by coming. And all too often we found them, that is not the case. You have somebody in a grocery store, or that's at a hotel, or a traffic cop, or somebody there's like I'll be glad when all these folks leave. Right, you know changing that mentality I think, is also another really important important thing to do. And I will say this, too, there are some spaces in some communities where there are things that are going on, there are connections that are being made, there was a great program in Louisville where I think it was Ironman Foundation had people to sign up with Habitat for Humanity you, right there the day before went out to that morning, I think it was a Saturday morning, and could go and volunteer with Habitat for Humanity and that you your race club got an award for participation. That's what the community needed. Ironman Foundation was really good about connecting and asking athletes to volunteer, or their sherpas, I was a Sherpa, let me be clear I'm not racing Ironman at this stage in my life, I'm not there at that place so, I'm really, really well, though, for boys. And that was that was what the sherpas and family members were doing. Great partnership. That was a problem in Louisville and it was a way to celebrate the what the community was trying to do in the same way that people were celebrating that great finish line in Louisville. So there are definitely things that I think can be done, but it does it does take interaction, it does take participation, and I was paying attention.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Yeah.

Lisa Ingarfield: I mean, you know as you're talking, these are really great suggestions, tangible things that people can do, and I keep coming back to this, your point about altruism. And I actually looked up the definition of altruism and it says: the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. And you know, I think, to some extent, yes triathlon community, endurance sport community is like that, but then I've also encountered endurance sport athletes who are not like that right. They are so singularly focused on this success, and their training, and their needs, it's not even entering their head about the environmental impact that they might have in a city in an environment right that perhaps could you know could be damaged by the races presence. And I just like I feel like it's a little bit of an emotional connection that needs to happen right like that that is my problem. Versus you know Shaunna and I talked about this with Challenge Daytona and the covid piece, and how so many people, again a predominantly white group of people, were desperate to race and didn't enter their mind that going there was actually creating risk for a significant number of people who are vulnerable because they're essential workers. You know from people in hotels, from restaurants, from medical professionals, like that that wasn't even something they thought about. And that's not necessarily an environmental thing, but it feels like that emotional piece is missing and i'm wondering if you have any thoughts about that.

Heather McTeer Toney: Yeah I think that we have just entered into a whole new season of recognizing some of the deep seated racial issues that we have in our country. And while our experiences sometimes within triathlon are altruistic, we still have to get to that space. That's that one set few hours of time when all of the individual work that we're doing, there's this sense that folks have done it and in our individual spaces we're out here racing, but we can have we can tell someone else hey good job, at least you know, sometimes there are some people who do that. What's missing from that is what it takes to get there, so that is, I may see a lot of white people who are really happy to see me or or at the at the race, they say may say hello, they may not say hello. But they're not concerned about whether or not, or it doesn't even cross their mind whether or not I could train in the same way that they could. Why? Because in 2020 I couldn't ride a bike outside, there was no way. In some of the racially divisive spaces and especially that we've seen had happened over the past two weeks around the Washington DC area. In the southeast people of color being targeted. The very idea that what it would take and what it takes for me to to get there is different from someone else's experience. And so that part of it, I think that you're talking about Lisa yes, that is very true, because as a country, we are now reckoning with the fact that we really don't live in two equal societies. That's been a splash of cold water for some people, you have seen, you know, threads in race the human race groups where you know folks invite people of color say hey come on I haven't seen you at the Saturday run, no, you have not because we run through an area where there are confederate flags and the that homeowner might let you ride on by but I guarantee when I ride by they're gonna let dogs out. that has happened, repeatedly. So we can’t afford to go out on a run or ride and get dropped, because for us getting dropped doesn't mean that we're just going to be, you know, lagging behind, it literally means that we might be in some type of physical danger and recognize that that impacts our training. So all of the altruism that we feel when that race day, understand we're coming from different spaces. And one of those spaces, that I do think some white people are coming from is the assumption that we all did the same thing or close to the same practices to get here without recognizing some of the roadblocks that people of color really had to cross over in order to just show up.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Roadblocks, boulders, fences, you name it we've dealt with. I mean Lisa and I, we talked about this previously just around you know interaction at the Capitol on that day, exactly how we managed that very day. Lisa was swimming at the time and came out and looked at the news and was like what happened here and I had heard rumblings on Black Girls Do Bike on social media or on Black Girls Run or what have you that stuff was going down.

Heather McTeer Toney: Remember and I said I don't care what, for no reason whatsoever are you to come out of your house, and I did I said I don't, you're not taking your garbage can down, you are not taking recycling down, and you will just have to wait to get the mail until after Thursday.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Lisa she said, she said I don't care, she said I don't care if you got to run laps around your couch, you are not going out of your house. It’s the truth, but we planned very differently. But I think you're bringing up a great point that you know it's not a, especially in 2020 it has not been a once or twice one time happening when it's an instance, it's not just an instance, it's been our reality it's been a reality for years, but I think it's intensified in the last year. And so you know me and this trainer wheel that I've got on my bike, we are best friends right now, because based on my schedule and based on my time, no I'm not going to go riding my bike by myself anywhere and I'm definitely not going to do it in this particular climate. And so you know, given that, even with runs you know, usually I think nothing of it get together with my running partner at five o'clock in the morning go run go to work do my usual thing. Now I schedule it where you know it's in the middle of the day when I know there's lots of other people out or I'll go with another group or I'm it's just very thoughtful. And so I think we have you know kind of two different things going on here, definitely environmental issues, but then you know this pandemic has brought out some of the best and some of the worst in folks. And so how do we hold it all together, it's not just looking at the weather forecast anymore, we gotta we gotta roll it all into one.

Heather McTeer Toney: And you know we're in a really interesting period right now, because of the covid, because because of what we are fixing in terms of our democracy and the recognition that we're coming to around equality in our country, I want to sort of show a different side of this as well as what policymakers, particularly people black policymakers, leaders, city leaders, organization leaders, are trying to balance right now. Because, make no mistake, these races are good economic engines for communities. I'm a former mayor and you know, was with EPA so I've worked in in local, state, and federal government. And we do want to see equity in terms of the distribution of opportunity to communities of color, we want to see races happen in places where it is giving people an opportunity to experience different cultures within our country, and opportunity to come into contact with people that maybe they've had stereotypical thoughts about, and show that it doesn't have to be an all-white community in a suburban neighborhood that you're running through, that there are really good spaces in this country that some people just haven't been exposed to. And there are policymakers and corporations and businesses that actually I think would would want to see that happen. But what has to happen, and this goes back to the conversation about climate and infrastructure and why it is so important, is that those communities that we want to go to have to have the infrastructure to be able to sustain the races and things that are coming into town. That is they've got to have the road infrastructure, you can't ride a bike on torn up streets, you can't run on torn up sidewalks right. You have to have a solid infrastructure. You've got to have a city crew and mayor or council or or or chamber that is supportive, that will be there even to pick up those bottles and things in plastic afterwards, or to be forward thinking and set out recycling. We have to understand that communities are putting out additional fire ambulance, police support, in some of these spaces they've got to do that for races or not, they don't need anybody being extra and racist and other other stuff happening at the same time. That’s a thing in and of itself.

Shaunna Payne Gold: That's right.

Heather McTeer Toney: But I do think that we see this as an opportunity again to provide equity in communities, to provide and put those dollars back into the communities. That's why I was so excited about Memphis, oh gosh I was so excited, I'm so excited about Memphis, Memphis was cancelled 2020, I'm already signed up and ready to race it in 2021, I'm already excited about 2021. With the reason I'm so excited about Memphis is because Memphis is a community that is predominantly African American and so you know, but it has a beautiful culture of everything from Elvis Presley to BB King down on the club streets, it has beautiful parks, I mean it is awesome. I'm interested to see what they're gonna do with the roads, I was over there in December and so I know they're working on some things, but it's a chance to showcase how we can make this happen. And those same dollars spent in California running through in on the ocean or in and different places, we can put this and provide some equity into communities of color that are long overdue.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Mm hmm well, and you know that that makes me, so Lisa and I we’re always thinking through the tiers or the layers of folks that are involved in endurance sport, you know we think about the athlete, we think about businesses that are connected to triathlon. Whether it's you know someone that's making bike wheels or someone making kits even thinking about, of course, race directors event planners, and so forth. What would we or what should we suggest for all three of those populations to do in support of both different athletes that come from the entire spectrum of social identities, how do we support them while also at the same time supporting the environment that we're taking over for a day, a week, a month even. Some of these races, you know it's a weekend of activities where it might be a running festival or something of that nature. What can we do to support all three of those particular groups in ways that include everyone but also don't continue to ransack the environment that we have the privilege of utilizing for a few hours or a day.

Heather McTeer Toney: So I'll give you three things one, I think we should certainly take notes from our international racers and friends. It is amazing to me how you know you can go and race in Dubai, or in Germany, or in South Africa, or Asia and automatically we abide by the rules. If they say don't throw anything on the side of the road in Dubai, you don't throw anything on side of the road in Dubai. I shall, I know you've raced in London before, when they have rules about how things start, we all of a sudden get along and abide by those rules.

Shaunna Payne Gold: We are guests in their country.

Heather McTeer Toney: Only yet like we have real home training. I think one of the first things we can do is take note from again our international friends and races and be just as good of a guest at home as we are when we leave. Now I'm not saying it's perfect because everybody has different rules and different spaces and different ways of doing things, but the way that we don't question we should also do the same thing here. Follow the rules that are set out by the city by the state and if they are focused on recycling, if they are focusing on cleaning their city, if they are focusing on kindness and hospitality, whatever it is let's get in line with it. I think that's a great first step for all of us, because you know before we ever arrive in a race space, the the city, the corporation's, the businesses, they've had meetings they've done a ton of things to talk about what vision they want to put before the world when the world stage comes to them, that's number one. Number two I say that we, and this is one we can ge in trouble about, but we really have to demand that race directors and organizations take our health priority number one, without a doubt. And they're going to say Oh, we do that, we are always making sure that everyone stays healthy. Let me tell you about Louisville, see here’s my Louisville story.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Oh, here it comes here it comes.

Heather McTeer Toney: I don't remember if it was 2014 or 2015, it was one of those two years, and I was sherpa for for for a group and we were doing it was for the full Ironman race, the swim, the bike, everything was on. At the time I was also serving as the regional administrator for EPA in the Southeast and was one of my states. Well weeks before the race we had been getting some water samples from Kentucky in the river that the folks will be swimming in that weren't meeting the bar. And there were, everybody was you know they were trying not to freak anybody out, but there was some possibility that that swim might be canceled because the water quality was just not suitable. Friends that knew me knew, you know, I was in Atlanta, and they knew I was in Atlanta, they knew what I did, I was getting calls and texts hey heather is it okay to swim in this water. And I was like I don't know, my staff thought I was crazy because I asked for water sample results from Louisville Kentucky every day and towards the week before I wanted them to take those tests twice a day at a minimum. We got up to the race, I got there on that day, and I promise you Shaunna I was this close from whipping out of federal badge and going up to the race directors if I didn't have those results. So I had you know official people from the regional office talking to the State water folks. I'm sure people just saw me walking around with a cap and a hat on like oh that's just some volunteer they had no idea that I was literally the woman who was about to make a decision if they were going to get in that water. And that because, if I had said no, nobody was going to swim that day, and that was gonna be the end of that. But to me, I needed to make sure that I was sure that I was sure that I was sure that the water quality that people were going to be swimming in was not going to have legs and that there weren't going to be problems later on down the line. Whether they are, there are always going to be some issue because no water body is perfect. But what we have to require is that state agencies and federal agencies do their job and they test to at least to the best of their ability confirm that it's okay for human beings to be in. Got water samples back the day before, it was a clear, I had a good time just sherpa and cheering on and nobody had to know that I was about to be the most hated woman in all of Louisville for Ironman, because nobody knew that I was standing there waiting.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Close call.

Heather McTeer Toney: They had no idea, but I mean I was Shaunna, you know how I am, I think send them to my laptop, are we good, we know who, okay all right.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Oh yes.

Heather McTeer Toney: It was, I was ready, but that's just how important it is to me. Environment and protecting our water, our public waterways, protecting what people are ingesting. And I want to go back to this what you said, we have a diverse group of athletes that come from all walks of life. Everyone from people who are at the top of their game, elite athletes, to you know that lady who is a two time cancer survivor and she has come back and this is, you know her her part of her recovery, we have seen veterans who've lost limbs that have completed full races, we have seen people come back from depression, we have seen people with brain tumors, we have seen people with autoimmune disease. Every aspect of the physical health of a human person, we have seen cross that line. Including, I was really excited to see the young man who crossed the finish line I think he was first one who ever finished our man with down syndrome. We've seen people you know asist and you know been in the water with two or three men who are assisting someone else who doesn't have the ability, just to make sure they can finish that race. The last thing we need to be doing is putting their health at risk. So I’m stressing that is my number two, we have to make sure that folks do their job to protect us after we have invested all of this time and money to race.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Yeah yeah, absolutely agree. Well because the it, isn't that like an oxymoron right, like we're all there because we're trying to maintain our health, we like to be out there competing some of us live, the lifestyle itself is how we maintain our health, isn't that contrary that you've spent months and months to train for a race and then you jump in water that's not healthy for you and then all of a sudden you're sick as a dog, that defeats the whole point of doing what we do over this.

Heather McTeer Toney: But we don't, again it's that part of what happens, and we see it right you, you get to the edge of the water and everybody's excited and anxious and you spend all these months and then you don't want anything to happen, you know you want everything to be okay that's natural. But accepting that it may not be good for everyone's health and again that goes back to the altruism Lisa. I may be able to deal with it, my health may not be compromised, or like you were discussing with that race situation where people wanted to go race because they were in good health, but not recognizing that the other people were not in good health. That's where that altruism, we have to work on that, we have to work on recognizing that you know what I might be able to get in this water, I might have a few sinus problems, but somebody else might get in this water and they they can't take it. And you know I think about the person who comes to mind for me and, and she was a wonderful amazing athlete and that's Dawn, Shaunna you know who I’m talking about, she passed away from from breast cancer, I remember watching Dawn swim in Ironman Augusta and she didn't have the the same capacity and strength to be out there and she swam it on her back. And she floated her way down there, and you know she she was making it along, and she finished it within the time period, she was just doing the swim portion. But I had this just, I saw her at the end of my race, but I just had this overwhelming feeling that if if it's not good enough for Dawn, if she can't get in this water and it’s harmful for her, cut the whole thing off, no nobody's getting into the water. Because, for her to put herself in that position, that to me is the altruistic effect that we should be seeking for in triathlon in in our society as a whole, quite frankly, but it really matters when it comes to our environment and our climate.

Lisa Ingarfield: Um that's really interesting to think about it because I have definitely been at races where the swim has been canceled and there are some angry triathletes about it right. I'm I'm kind of well I don't want to get in that water if I'm going to throw up right. But that piece that you're saying is that you know if one to two people run the risk of getting sick, then it's not worth it right. And I think that, particularly people who feel quite entitled or who have a lot of majority identity dominant identities, you know I encourage them to have some empathy and kind of like understand that interconnection between the environment and human health right, and that it's not enough that you want to do it right. We need to think about the community. And I do think there's an issue here in the United States broadly about individual versus community, and I think obviously mask wearing is one current example of people putting themselves ahead of the group and I see that in triathlon with exactly what you're talking about and it's it feels like there’s a tension.

Heather McTeer Toney: You know, and the things that they can do that we can do because, for that majority that dominant group, this this is that time we're saying hey there's something you can do about it, this is why you support your your state infrastructure bills, this is why you support and you advocate for ensuring that we are talking about water, we're talking about air, that we're supporting climate action. I know there are a lot of folks who tend to think a lot of I don’t have anything to do with climate, I don't have to do with anything with environment, that doesn't have to do with my race. But the reality is is that supporting climate action means you're actually supporting funding for those water those state agencies that are testing the water that are ensuring that they are taking proper care so that you can swim. So not supporting the environmental advocacy of a state or of our federal government actually puts us in a worse position, because it means there's nothing there to to have prevented the situation. That's why climate sustainability and resilience is so important, it's so important. Great example, when we're parking our bikes in a parking lot or whatever they have space they have put for bike transition, it could be an asphalt parking lot, it can be a field, what happens if there's a big rain and it all gets washed away ya know, where there's no there's no place to put it. We've all been in through muddy fields and all kinds of stuff. But one little component that you don't think about could make or break how we race. And you'll see people who are complaining about what it is. If they would only support resiliency efforts, environmental resiliency efforts, there's already technology available Lisa and Shaunna that could take something like that parking lot or that field and ensure that it has drainage, there's actually asphalt drainage where the water runs right through the asphalt as a mechanism to create resiliency from future climate actions, more floods, more more overextended rains. Supporting that type of climate action and resiliency means that those cities and communities can install that stuff so that even if there is a heavy rain, by the time you get up in the next morning it's gone it's gone and your race is not cancelled. That we're not waiting like Shaunna said for that 20 mile stretch that she's got a ride her bike that's a river to actually drain off because the the technology and the infrastructure dollars that we need for climate resiliency, and Shaunna that's what that's what it is it’s climate resiliency, because these communities, as you said, they're preparing making sure people can get back and forth to work through that 20 mile stretch of flooding water. Our main events or races are only for the weekend, people have to go to work every single day so they're seeing right now we've got more floods, we got stronger storms, with more water in them it's sitting on to the road and so we need to get that off. When we all support climate action like that, then those communities get the funding to put those things in places and guess what we can race. So that's you know, Lisa, how we have to begin to see this and connect these dots. So yes you're an environmentalist because you want to race and you don't want your race canceling, you don't want to be sitting in a bed of ants when you get on your bike, that makes you an environmentalist, it means you should support climate action.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Absolutely well, and you know I'm thinking about because it's one thing that our coach here in the Annapolis area that she's done, I think we need to kind of put it on our to do list, I'm not saying that it needs to be every race, but I think as athletes, I think we need to put some events on our list that do directly support funding of whatever environmental activism that's going on. So so, for example, our coach who is an English Channel swimmer, she lives right on the edge of the south river and so, for her every year she does a seven mile swim and she gives you different lengths, one mile, three, five and seven that you can actually swim the distance and whatever your registration fee was it all goes towards conservation of that very same river that we use for training every single week. It's a mode of transportation for lots of folks that work and live on the river itself. I have a good friend of mine who paddle boards every morning across the river over to her yoga and then paddle boards right back to her house, you know and so I do think there needs to be really conscious efforts on the side of athletes to say look, yes I realize, I mean some of us pay 2,3,4 in the hundreds of dollars for Ironman racing and other distances of racing. It's not that big of a sacrifice for a lot of us that have the means to spend $50 for the charity swim to conserve the river that you already use anyway for training. And so I'm just wondering how we can continue to kind of you know add those things on our to-do list as athletes to continue to support these folks. Because they're they're, like you said Heather, they’re there but are we are we contributing back to those that we continually take from. You know we we take from the south river association every single weekend most of my people and we call them the swim mafia the swim mafia we're out training on that very same river, probably for six or seven months out of the year. So why not do some of those things, or whether it doesn't have to be swim, it could be any of our sports, but what are we doing and how are we seeking those collaborations and partnerships out. I have not been as conscious about doing that but that might be something I want to put on my list, Lisa, to do each season, to seek out races and events that are supporting the environment that we're using up all the doggone time. That that that needs to be something on our to do list.

Heather McTeer Toney: Absolutely, you know and it starts at home, you're starting in the right place. We may all travel to different places to participate in races but we train at home, so take care of home. The athletes who are in these places where we go to race, they know their homes and they want us to respect their homes. One of the coolest things about Augusta 70.3 was, there's so much there's so many jokes, but also love and joy about the the river and the alligators in the river.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Right.

Heather McTeer Toney: But, the people who live there year round, and who spend time in that river cutting down the sea grass to make people comfortable so that they don't feel like they're swimming into some some that type of mossy pit that actually take the time and care to scuba dive and clean up that river. They don't do with just the week before the race, they do that all year long. They monitor those spaces all year long, that's their home, that's their training ground. And so yes, we should start at home. They take great care of that space and it's such a good example of how people are concerned of these places that we coexist in with our government. And want to make sure that we are we are rapidly protecting it. We call it creation care, for its creation here right God gave us this responsibility to take care as part of our charge and so places that do that very, very well, and we should we should take up that man will do the same. It will look differently in different places, for some spaces it is water, it's for some spaces it's air, simple air monitoring. So let's talk about Texas for a moment, where we have the world's largest number of petrochemical facilities, oil refineries that are located across the entire Gulf Coast region. Just running outside if you don't live in that environment means you're now susceptible to breathing in air that you're not used to. Like going over to do Colorado, Denver where you're not used to being in that altitude, there's an adjustment that your body has to make that is based upon the environment. That's environmental justice, the toxins in the environment are inhibiting how you breathe. So for someone who has asthma, they've got to be aware of just what the levels say outside. They need to know about what are, not just the allergens, but what are the actual toxic chemicals that are outside if I'm going to race in Texas. So people who are in Texas, they do air monitoring. Their issue may not be the water control so much as it is just to make sure that people who are coming to race in Texas are aware of the fact that, for the past five days this is what the air monitoring has been, this is what the chemicals are, this is what we're expecting moving forward, and that they have the tools and resources to do that all year long. That's supporting environmental justice and it's protecting our ability to race in these spaces um.

Lisa Ingarfield: I really like the way you're connecting policy and our ability to race right, because I think one of the things that Shaunna and I hear a lot is that endurance sport broadly is separate from our political environment right and that you know never the twain shall meet right, like as though they are these bubbles that just are impervious. And so I really appreciate how you're kind of highlighting really clearly that local, state, and federal policy around some of the things that you've highlighted has a direct connection to our ability to race on the land that we are wishing to race on right, and the air that we breathe, and the water that we swim in. So you know I do think, I'm a big big policy person right, I think that it's really crucial that endurance sport athletes understand that connection rather than just say you know triathlon, cycling, running, that's my escapism, you know I don't need to I don't need to worry about the impact that that has. You know I just think that that's something really tangible that folks can do, they can advocate for you know funding policy change awareness right for the City Council all the way up to the Federal Government.

Heather McTeer Toney: Absolutely, we have to see ourselves in those spaces to understand and effectuate that change. It is critical, you cannot separate the two. So for all of that escapism escapism that we desire, the want to go to Kona, and I'm really pushing some good friends of mine that are at that Kona level to go ahead and do what they need to do so I can go Sherpa, and I'm, but none of that will happen if I'm not effective in ensuring that there is sound climate policy that protects the natural habitats that people enjoy so much. What good is it if you get to Kona and you can't race it because the the there's not protective and resilient infrastructure or that there is not enough to go around, in other words the infrastructure has to be protective to the people who actually live there year round versus this. Because we are coming to a time in a space where it's very difficult decisions are now having to be made. Can our community handle it, do we have the capacity to be this for even this just week, this one weekend, what does it cost us. And let's think about that in real terms, including covid right now. Spaces that you said Shaunna in North Carolina that are looking right now at what the next hurricane season is going to look like, we came we're coming off of the worst hurricane season we have had in decades on top of the hottest year we had ever recorded in history ever period. These two things combined is already telling us that next year is going to be rough. Regardless of what people think about climate, climate change, I don't I think climate is here it's not it's constantly changing, we we’re dealing with climate action at this point. But the science, it is what it is right, so we you can't you can't argue with the science, and the science is telling us based upon the fact that we had all these storms, we had the worst year that, and there’s sea level rise. The carolina’s, they’re looking a little sketchy right now and they're having to make some decisions, do we put our emphasis in restoring and resiliency to protect our communities to ensure that we have land for generations to come and protecting our businesses and our homeland, or do we let all these people come over here um potentially you know we get sick and then we can't do these things. And and being supportive of policies that, even if you live in California protect Carolina, is what allows us to do that. It is the folks that are in the midwest that are dealing with flooding. You can't ride a bike through flooded field water out west, you can't cycle and run in the middle of a wildfire which is just it's just not we can’t do it.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Right.

Heather McTeer Toney: Well, the climate policy is such a critical piece, and this is another glimpse into heather's crystal ball, the future while we will constantly see races changing spaces, we are, we will no longer see the time where races and cities get 2,3,5 year contracts for races, I really believe that time is over. We're going to see those extended, you know three to five year contracts, shortened down to one in a possible, and we're going to see a lot of shifts on a regular basis of where races will be held.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Yeah and that that's something that you know we will all have to continue to consider moving forward. You know, there are some races that are notorious for the swim being cancelled or notorious for the bike being short and what have you. And you know, so I think it's kind of you know that ostrich putting their head in the ground to say I don't want to pay attention to that, even though I want to complain about it. I don't want to see the connections between all of it that if I don't pay attention to it that I don't get to race which then prohibits me from doing what I love. And so you know even to me, we started the conversation talking about altruism, shoot even if you are selfish you would still care about missed work right.

Heather McTeer Toney: I was very selfish about New Orleans, I wanted to, I was at New Orleans standing there in the sand in the pouring rain when it was called. And it was a storm, it was a major storm they were trying to let pass, and it is it when we're right. And a lot of people don't like New Orleans, it’s flat, it's hot, um I went to school in New Orleans and I like to eat, so I choose my races based on different things. I was you know was hurt, I was hurt. Selfishly I wanted to race New Orleans, this was no longer race for us. I am working actively on climate policy that protects places like New Orleans so that hopefully, and climate wasn't only thing that was a problem with New Orleans, let's just say that there were a lot of problems with it in New Orleans. But at least to help to get to a place where climate policy and the infrastructure and resources they need to protect people who are racing are in place and then business and community can make those decisions, but I was hurt.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Heather is like I want my beignets ready and at the finish, okay, I want them ready.

Heather McTeer Toney: Yes, oh my gosh. I had them, I'm not gonna lie.

Lisa Ingarfield: That is absolutely fine.

Heather McTeer Toney: You know I won’t waste a trip to New Orleans.

Lisa Ingarfield: Exactly exactly.

Shaunna Payne Gold: Exactly well look at look we've been we've been on for a good while, probably longer than our listeners are used to, which can be great because I hope they were eating it up like I was for sure. But you know I think, Heather, you brought up a lot of points that we need to consider, I mean, obviously we didn't talk about this at the beginning, but Heather, wife, mother, attorney, daughter of a civil rights leader, and game changer, I could go on and on, with all the things that Heather does, my sorority sister, all the things. But we needed this perspective right, we needed it because it sounds like we've got a bit of homework to do when it comes to this type of work, because that we usually talk a lot about inclusion and equity and diversity and endurance sport. Let's bring it all together, because this is affecting everyone and really, I loved your point Lisa around you know when are we going to get to the point that we are really thinking in terms of community rather than individualism and can we do it, both at the same time. I have to do my training, but I can care about every other athlete out there while I'm doing it, so what why can't we pull all of that together. So we got we got some connecting of the dots to do Lisa when it comes to this work for sure.

Lisa Ingarfield: Yeah I agree.

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Dr. Lisa Ingarfield: [un]phased, a podcast produced by Live Feisty Media and supported by the Outspoken Women in Triathlon Summit.

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold: Edited and produced by the fabulous Lindsay Glassford.

Dr. Lisa Ingarfield: Email us at [email protected] and find us on social @tritodefi @drgoldspeaks or @outspokenwomenintri. I’m Lisa.

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold: I’m Shaunna. Thanks for listening, stay unphased folks. See ya next time.

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