De Lisle Commando Carbine

# ..&. SMALL ARMS

IDENTIFICATIONSER'ES

SPECIALSERVICE LEE-ENFIELDS .O' COMMANDO& AUTOMODELS

.45 De Lisle CommandoCarbine, Charlton,Howell & Rieder Rifles and Howard FrancisCarbine Notes & lllustrations

s.A.r.s. No. 13 Ian Skennerton A .45 De LisleCarbine Genealogy 5 .45 De LisleCarbine Specifications 23 De LislePatent Specification & Drawings 24 Lee-EnfieldAutoloading Conversion Genealogy 30 Self-LoadingRifle & CarbineSpecifications 35 CharltonSelf-Loading Rifle, N.Z. 37 ElectroluxCharlton Self-Loading Rifle 39 Howell,Rieder & EkinsSelf-Loading Rifles 41 ContemporaryAustralian S.L. Conversion 43 7.65mm HowardFrancis Carbine 45 ldentification& Markings 47 IUillian GodfreyDe lisle at his Rournemouthhome in 1980, with prototype sappressed.22 rinfire Rrowning autoloader. lan Skennerton

0e lisle'sprototype .22 Erowning autoloader, engraved'DE llslE SIIENTAUT0 .22 CAIIBBE BIFTE ilL. t00t' inscribedafter planswere made for.45 prodaction;their numbers started at 1002. llationatArny Museun .45 DE LISLECOMMANDO CARBINE

DE LISLE CARBINE GENEALOGY

Born in South Africa on 29th May 1905, WilliamGodfrey De Lislecommenced school at KingsCollege School, Wimbledon. Then he attendedLincoln school which hadincorporated the old LincolnCathedral Grammar School. Secondary education was undertakenat LoughboroughCollege, now known as the LoughboroughUniversity, and he graduatedafter a 5-yearcourse in Mechanicaland ElectricalEngineering. De Lislewas then employedas a developmentengineer with SiemansBros. and joinedthe Air Ministryin 1935. The Air Ministrylater became the Ministryof Air Productionor M.A.P.

Duringa visitby the authorto De Lisle'sresidence at Bournemouthin late'l9BO,Godfray De 'when Lislerecalled that his f irst practicalinterest in silencerdesign occurred I was 76 years old, at school rn Lrncoln. lused to make up .22 rifle silencers for my school friends for rabbit shootrng they were made from empty cocoa tins and were, with the lower velocity .22, very effective. These thrngs were not illegal in those days, but the police learned what I was dorng and asked me not to do any more and explarned the dangers from accidents and particularly from crime if these thrngs got around. I never made up any more until the last war, and then it was for a real purpose.'

De Lislehad an avid interestin firearmsand was well acquaintedwith membersof the Londongun trade;Major Holland, Mark Dinely,and the WilkesBros. who had a gunshopin BeakSt., Soho.De Lrsle'sfirst prototypesuppressed rifle at this time was a.22 Browning '1943. auto'loaderthat he set up in Beckenhamin 1942 and The wood stock was acquired f rom Hollands,Wilkes assisted with the stocking-upof De Lrsle's.22 RF suppressedrrfle,

Early9mm and .45 prototypeswere fabricatedfrom old movie guns suppliedby Mark Dinelyof Bapty's,a long establishedmovie gun hirebusiness. All serviceableLee Enfields had beenimpressed into service during the war; new rifleswere not available.In the course of inrtraltests, suppressed rifles were'field tested'by firing at a largebrick chimney on a buildingacross the streetin broaddaylight during working hours, near Piccadilly Circus in centralLondon. In the cold winter weather,with peopleshuffling on footpathsand across the street,nobody looked up or aroundas they were unawareof shots berngfired. So De Lisleand the Wilkesgunsmiths knew that the suppressedmuzzle report was imperceptible.

Thesefirearms incorporated De Lisle'sprinciples for'silencing'a firearm, nrore fully de scribedrn De Lisle'sPatent Specifications. The .22 rimlireexperimental has a barrellength "German of about7.5-in., enclosed in an outercasing. The muzzlers flared into a nozzle" so as to inducethe gassesto follow the curve;the bafflesform a sprralin orderthat the Lld55e5 t-^Ue L;rrL;Urdteo. ^;.^,,t^+^

W.G.De Lisle'spersonal .22RF Browningis consideredthe firstprototype; it and a Sterling .45 De LisleCommando Carbine were purchasedby the authorin 1981 from GodfrayDe Lisle,along with relatedrecords and memorabilra.They were eventuallypassed on to the NationalArmy Museumin Chelsea,London, as therewas no way underexisting British or Australianfirearms laws that theseitems could be heldor owned by an indrvrdualcollector.

The overalllength of this experimentalcarbine is 29.3 in.,and the actionhas beenslightly modifiedby the additionof werghtto the breechblock for the purposeof retardingthe bolt openrng;this consistsof an enlargedthumb gripon the cockingpiece. This particularrifle is fitted with a GreatWar vintagesurplus Periscopic Prism Co. telescoprc sight, set up on "DE overheadmounts. On the left side of the receiveris enqraved LISLESILENT AUTO". 5?9,169. Gua rilence,rg. LISLE, W. G. Dn. May 8, 1943, Nos. 3756 aud 7964. [Class92 (ii)] Iiolates to gun eiloncers of FrG.2. the kind in which baffie plates t4, ,1 in the forrn of spiral discs 50 a.re arranged in a tubular casing 14 specd eccontrically round tho gun barrol 12 to cause the gun gaaes to ewful \ about a,n axis that is offset X x from the pa,th of the projectile which passos through eccen- \ tric perforations in tho plates, o< According to the invontion, the bafflo plates situated to- I wards tho front of tho casing t\ havo each a, redial slit, the portions on adjacont 50 are supported on rods 40 and the peri- z eides of the slit, Fig. 4, being bent to lie at pheries ofthe discs aro rpaced frorri tho interior hI opposito sides of tho gonoral plano of the disc. of the casing, the front flat disc 56 having The ca"sing 14 extends rearwardly around tho holes providing front'openings at tho bottorn. barrel to form a rearwardly-closed expansion Irr a modification ehown in Fig. 7, a front chamber r between the muzzle and the gun group of spiral plates 50 is combined with a A< receiver. To prevont the formation of a roar group of flat plates 72, 74, 76 and the s gun \ partial vacuum at the muzzle, a rrauzzle intorior of the rear portion of the casing is t\ attachmont comprising a flared nozzlo 62 and providod with a liner in tho form of sound- R a rearwardly-extending ehiold 66 is provided, doadoning matorial 82 enclosed in a thin metallic t l\r the shiold masking a numbor of gaa escapo shoath. \ holos 70 formod in tho gun barrol. The discs

Oddly enough,the main field testing of this exercisein silencerdesign was in quietly despatchingsmall game on the BerkshireDowns. At this time,food rationingwas in opera- tion and the game meat endedup on the De Lisledinner table, a most welcomefare.

Anotherclose friend of De Lislewas StanleyHand, a directorof the UnitedDevelopment AssociatedPlastics Ltd. at the PlasticraftWorks, HighWycombe and Major Sir Malcolm Campbellof CombinedOperations HO hadapproached UDAP about the possibilityof manu- facturingplastic bullet-proof shields. This projectwas unsuccessfulbut in the courseof conversationwith Campbell,Hand mentionedDe Lisle'ssilent rifle. Campbellexpressed interestfor a militaryapplication in covertoperations and he requesteda meetingwith De Lisle.Sir Malcolmand son Donaldlater achieved international fame for successiveland and water speedrecords with their'Bluebird'machines.

Not long after meetingCampbell, De Lislebrought the carbineto Londonfor examination and its likelyfirst, though albeitunofficial, test was beingfired from the Adelphibuilding into the RiverThames. The low soundlevels were confirmedby the inattentionof those passers-byon an otherwisenormal working day in London.The assembledpersonnel were quiteimpressed with its performanceand Campbellrequested a 9mm modelbe fabricated. Principallybecause of the 9 x 19mm cartridgeballistics, De Lisleadvised against this, but as the 9mm roundwas alreadyin service,Campbell insisted.

When Sir MalcolmCampbell first inquiredabout a militaryapplication, De Lislesuggested the US .45 ACP round,but Campbellinsisted on gmm dueto serviceavailability. Attempts to reducebullet velocity below the speedof soundby drillingholes along the barrelresulted in jacket shavingspeeling off. De Lislealso considered the lighter,reduced velocity 9mm had poor stoppingpower. Only one 9mm experimentalmodel was reportedlyassembled; De Lislesaid that he carriedout the conversionat Bapty'sworkshop. A Remingtonsporting rifleaction was usedbut De Lisleconsidered the projectunsuccessful so it was scrapped.

After the demiseof the 9mm experimentalproject, De Lisleassembled a .45 versionat Bapty'sLondon workshops. The .45 A.C.P.round was sub-sonicand the heavierprojectile

6 "knock-down has better muzzle and residualenergies" or power". Upon completion of this model, it was submitted to Campbellfor practicaltesting, from which it emerged success- fully. This particularweapon was eventuallypresented by De Lisleto Mark Dinelyfor the Bapty firearms collection.Tests with this, the first .45 De Lisle silencedcarbine, were conductedon the seashore.At distancesover 50 yards, the sound was unlikethat of a firearmbeing discharged and it was paid scant attentionby casualbeach-goers. Even on a dark night, no muzzleflash could be perceivedwhen the suppressedcarbine was fired.

As a result of the successfulinitial tests, Campbellasked De Lisle to assemblea small numberof carbinesfor use by commandosin raidson the Frenchcoast. De Lislewanted to make these at Hollandsor Bapty's but Campbellinsisted they be made up at the Ford Dagenhamfactory just outside London.Sir Malcolm Campbellwas on the board of direc- tors of Ford and perhapsfelt he would have more control over the security and manufacture of the carbinesas they were being producedfor CombinedOperations.

Seventeen.45 prototypecarbines were madeat FordDagenham using reject SMLE actions and butts. De Lislewas assistedby two of the factory foremenand machiningwas done in the Fordtoolroom with the assemblybeing effected in the manager'sARP dugout. Barrels were converted from Thompson sub-machinegun spares;there are quite a few differences between this Ford prototypebatch and the ensuingSterling production models.

Ouite obvious difference are the sights, muzzle, fore-end and short magazine guide. The silencercase is phosphatedsteel whereasthe Sterlingmodel is alloy.The foresightis an SMLE blade set in a ramp and the protecting wings have holes to admit light onto the foresight,reminiscent of the .303 Pattern 1914 rifle.The backsightis a simple'V' notch with sliding stepped ramp to adjust elevations,similar that found on many Winchester sportingrifles. The illustratedFord model is marked'THEDE LISLECOMMANDO CARBINE' alongthe top of the silencerjacket, along with the firearm'snew serialnumber.

An unserviceableMk lll SMLE rifle was used for this particularconversion and only the originalLee-Enfield butt, action and rearportion of the fore-endwere retained.The charger bridge was removed and a long ejector fitted into the left side of the receiver with the nib projectinginto the bolt way. The new .45 calibrebarrel extends for more than 2-in.into the originalboltway, necessitatinga shortenedbolt body. Due to the use of a rimlesscartridge, the face of the bolthead has been recessedand a special extractor fitted.

Ford Dagenhannodel (top) with fore-woodnissing, conpared with Sterling production (botton). M0D Patternfroon The magazineis that of a US Model 1911 Colt automaticpistol, modified in that a rib has been fitted onto the back so as to engagethe originalSMLE magazinecatch. A slight modification has also beeneffected to the magazinelips and platform.A platewas inserted into the originalmagazine way, attachedto the SMLEtrigger guard, and a casing extends for about 1-in. below the sheet metal olate and acts as a ouide for the maoazine.The oriqinalSMLE safetv catch was retained.

Specificationsof the prototypecarbine are- Calibre: .45-in. Weight: B lb. 4.75 oz. (3.9 kg) Cartridge: US Colt Auto Pistol Overalllength: 37 .2 in. (946 mm) -l.25 Rifling & twist: 6 groove, L.H. Effectivebrl length: in. (184 mm) Magazine capacity: 7 rounds Sighting radius: 13.6 in. (338 mm)

These were put straight into action by CombinedOperations in demolition raids on the Frenchcoast, marnly used to take out sentries.As the carbineswere special ordersfor CombinedOperations, they were not loggedin the generalservice ordnance system.

De Lisle'swork in the Ministryof AircraftProduction continued through the war and he was responsiblefor a numberof improvementsin aircraftand aeroengine design. Patents taken out in thisparticularfield were No. 562,39'l of 1942, andNos.3,756,-1,964 & 16,453of 'Bunnie' 1943. Later inventionsincluded the Wandsworth incinerator,a garbagedisposal unitand a self-openingventilation fan. A lesspublicised design of WilliamG. De Lisle'swas 'secret his remotetrigger mechanismfor" a agent' waist-beltpistol.

Duringthe earlieryears of the war, as a firearmsenthusiast, Godfray De Lisleoften visited the WilkesBros. at their BeakSt., Sohogunshop and on one of theseoccasions an officer from the War Office came into the gunshop with a rough pattern for an undercoverbelt pistolwith a remote,hand-operated triggering mechanism. De Lisleoffered to improvethe pattern and build some models arrd he assembledabout 24 during a bout of bronchitis whilst on a few days sick leave.He recalledmaking them up in his dressingroom usinga few small handtools,suitably attired in pyjamasand dressinggown.

The waist belt pistolcomprised a Colt .32 auto pistolmounted onto a steelplate fitted onto a servicewebbing waist belt. The rig was then positionedon the right side of the wearer's body and a Bowden cable run from the pistol triggerto a remote trigger on a brass ring worn on the finger. The externaltrigger could then be operatedby the thumb. Wilkes assembleda number of these units for covert operationsin Europe;one was used at the partisanassassination of Heydrichon 27th May, 1942. The belt pistol was worn under- neath a coat or jacket and the concealedweapon could be fired remotelythrough the coat, even with shooter'shands placedon his head or raisedin the mannerof surrender.

Anotherclandestine firearm of IAorH War 2. the belt pistol designed and fahricatedhy Mr. IU.G.De lisle. M0DPattern Boom a W.G. De Lisle notifiedthe OrdnanceBoard of his carbineand a sampleforwarded to Cheshuntfor preliminarytrials on 29th May 1943 was returnedto Campbellat the HO CombinedOperations on 3'lst May, 1943. A few monthslater, De Lislewas interviewed by membersof the OrdnanceBoard and he broughttwo of his carbinesto the meeting.

Personnel present: Mr. W. G. De Lisle Colonel Burchett (CEAD, Small Arms) Colonel Lugard (O.8. Chairman) Captain Roberts U.S.R.B.) Major Parsons (O.8.) Captain White (,4.3)

Mr. De Lisle produced two weapons with silencers- /. O.45 inch CARBINE (SILENT) - based on the No. / Rifle Butt and action: No. / rifle with shortened bolt, modified bolthead, ejector, &c. 0.45-in. barrel (c. B in. long) fitted with face of the barrel about halfway along the body so that a shortened bolt is required. An adaptor for the O.45-in. Colt SL pistol magazrne fits into the rear part of the normal magazine opening. The silencer is about 2 3 rnches rn diameter, approximately 75 7B inches long.

Other detatls- Accuracy: 2-in. group at 5O yds. (claimed). Sights: Radial backsight on silencer, barleycorn foresight. Bayonet: Can be fitted. Flash: Nil blaimed) Norse: lnaudible at 50 vds. (claimed) Weight. Approx. 7 lb.

2. .22 inch SELFLOADING CARBINE(SILENT) Very well made commercial type weapon, with magazine (tube type) in butt. Barrel: Approx. 7% ins. Silencer: Approx. 72ins. Scope: Fitted with large No. 32 type scope above ltarrel, no iron sights. Flash: Nil (claimed) Noise: Slight mechanical noise.

On 12th January,1944, De Lislewas advisedthat trialshad shown promiseand further tests were to be carriedout at Cheshunt.Three reports were tabledon 21st January- 1. Functioning& AccuracyTrials - ChiefInspector Armament, Woolwich 2. NoiseMeasurement Tests - NationalPhysical Laboratory 3. VelocityMeasurements - ChiefSuperintendent Armarnent Research

REPORTBY C.I.A./W. OF FUNCTIONING& ACCURACYTRIALS. 1111943 Weapon: 1 De LisleCarbine Accessories: 1 Magazine Ammunition.' .45-inchW.R.A. Object: Test carbinefor functioning, ac(;uracyand penetration. Details: A. Functioning: Fire20 roundshorizontally and 1O roundeach at BOdegrees elevation and deoression. . The carbinef unctionedcorrectly with eachshot f ired. B. Accuracy:Fire 3 x 5 rounddiagrams, 'Hri1ilrril""'n:l"tt:J;i;J.over cover, at 30 yds. c penerration;,[""'::';ff l,ii "lir' f"i"l,i1'l :Ti;J::i#il';',Hii:"etrate rive1-in dear boards ora sorid brock of f irst qualitypine 3 in. thick. REPORTBY N.P.L.ON COMPARATIVEMEASUREMENTS OF NOISEOF SILENCEDARMS Weapons: Mk 1 Sten(unsilencedl 21112143 '1 Mk 1 Sten (silenced) De LisleCornmando Carbine (silenced) An'rrrrunitior-r:9rnnr Mk 1z 1942 .45 Auto Remington NorseMeasurerrrerrt at 35 yds by NPLnoise meter

Bulletsfired through velocity screens average(phons) Mk I Sten(unsilenced) 111 Mk ll Sten(silenced) 91 De Lisle(silenced) 95 No screens: Mk ll Sten(silenced) 89.5 De Lisle(silenced) B5.5 The velocityscreens wei'e found to significantlyincrease the soundlevel of the De Lisle carbine,probably due to greatercalibre and highervelocity of the bullet.The results r,vithoutthe screenswere a more realrsticcomparison for fieldconditions.

REPORTON VELOCITIES 21 i12i43 Ammunition:9mm Mk 1z 1942 .45 Auto Remington 'l O.V.'sat 5 ft. recordedby Weibelchronograph Averageof 6 readrngs: Mk I Sten 1117fps Mk ll Stensilenced 731 fps De Lisie 865 fps The Mk ll Stenwas fittedwith the Welsilencer(ISRB). The 9mm ammunitionilsed was 1942 Mk 1zand gave lower velocities by about250 fps thancurrent types. This would rlean an increasein the noise levelof both Sten guns, appreciablyrnagnifying the differencebetween the Stenquns and the De Lisle.

The De Lisleshowed suff icient promise to warrantf urthertriais, so on 19th February1944, '1 two carbines,Nos. O15 and 1OO2,were tested at Cheshuntfor accuracyand silencing againstthe Mk ll (S) Sten.The De Lisleproved to be less noisy and gave a best S-shot groupar 20 yds of 1% x 1 in., comparedwith a best of 4 x 2'/, in. for the Sten.

Next was the 5,000 round endurancetrial, testing group size each 5OOrounds. Barrels were cleanedand well oiledevery 1,000 rounds,but the silencerswere not dismantledor cleanedthroughout the trial.Again, the De Lislewas testedagainst the Sten,but this tirne boththe machinecarbines were silenced models; the Mk llfittedwith Wel silencerand the Mk ll (S).Minor adjustmentswere requiredto the De Lisleextractor and firrngprn protru sion,while the Wel silencedSten gave continual double taps which resultedin the silencer assemblybeing fitted to a new gun after2,500 rounds.The Mk ll (S)was fittedwith a new sear at 500 roundsand at 3,500 roundsthe sealingfelts wei'ereplaced as they were completelVcharred. The De Lislecarbine r:sed in thesetrials was gun number1OO2.

Tenshot, 35 yd. groupsizes ranged between 1/lex 23la in.and B x B% in.for the De Lisle, untilabout 4,500 rounds,when they went wild due to the frrstbaffle being struck and bent. Comparativegroup sizesfor the WelsilencedSten were between21/z x 2% in. and 4',, x 9 in.,and 2 x 3in. to 2O'/ox 13%-in.for the Mk ll (S).

Uponexamining weaponsafter the trialsrt was found- De Lisle: Heavrlycoked up and impossibleto removethe outercasing, deposits o{ carbon1/16-in. to 1/Bin. thick on baffles, venturi and barrel. 10 ford Dagenhanconversion (top) with SterlingEngineering nodel at hotton; Sterlingversion does not havecharger guiderivet holesfilled. Ilote serialnumher 129 on theharrel and in chargerguide recess. M.0.0.Pattern fl00m

Wel-silencer:Stripped easily and carbonabout .05-in.th,ick on baffles.Rubber seal at front slightlycharred and evidenceof bafflesbeing hit by bullets. Mk ll (S): Barreland 13 baffles easily removed,but remainderimpossible to re- move, Baffles and barrelmore heavily coked than Welsilencer,but not as heavy as De Lisle.Sealing felts completelycharred and unserviceable.

Furthernoise measurementswere carriedout on 3rd May 1944 by the NationalPhysical Laboratorywith the De Lisleagainstthe unsilencedSten Mk ll and Sten Mk ll (S).Problems were encounteredwith damaged baffles again and the De Lisle resultsworsened as the sound baffles became more damaged.At first, the Mk ll tS) Sten performedmore quietly than the De Lislebut noise levelsincreased as the felts becamecharred. De Lislecarbine No. 1015 was used in these particulartrials.

Becauseof the confidential classificationof the De Lisle,patents were not taken out until officialapproval was given.On the 23rd March 1944, permissionwas grantedfor applica- tion of patentsin the UnitedStates and Russia.The Britishpatents had been appliedfor in 1943 and De Lisle'slisted 43 BelgaveRoad, London SW1 addresswas a security blind.

Both De Lislecarbines in the last trials were damagedso the OrdnanceBoard requested that Mr. De Lislesupply more for furthertests. There were noneto be had as the remainder of the first batch were in service in commando raids organisedby COHO. So De Lisle requestedthe returnof guns No, 1002 and 1O15to rebuildthem into one working carbine.

Two more were ordered as new trials were proposed with a silenced US M3 and the Sten. By August 1944, the De Lisle was in productionby SterlingEngineering Co. Again, the productionorder was for CombinedOperations, not directlyaccessible by or responsibleto the usualordnance channels. So the Committeeplaced an orderfor two additionalcarbines f rom Sterling.This contractwas dated 6th October1944, but cancelledon 16th November when two were made availablefrom the COHO contract.