Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee

Wednesday 10 March 2021

Session 5

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Wednesday 10 March 2021

CONTENTS Col. TRANSPORT (UPDATE) ...... 1 SUBORDINATE LEGISLATION...... 35 Plant Health (EU Exit) (Scotland) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [Draft] ...... 35

RURAL ECONOMY AND CONNECTIVITY COMMITTEE 9th Meeting 2021, Session 5

CONVENER *Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

DEPUTY CONVENER *Maureen Watt (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)

COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Peter Chapman (North East Scotland) (Con) *John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) *Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con) *Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) *Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) *Angus MacDonald (Falkirk East) (SNP) *Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) *Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) *Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)

*attended

THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Jo Blewett (Scottish Government) Alison Irvine (Scottish Government) Debbie Kessel (Scottish Government) Ben Macpherson (Minister for Rural Affairs and the Natural Environment) Michael Matheson (Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity) Bill Reeve (Scottish Government)

CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Steve Farrell

LOCATION Virtual Meeting

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achieving a green recovery from the pandemic Scottish Parliament that is also just and fair. Rural Economy and Connectivity The Covid pandemic has had a significant impact on the ways in which people travel and on Committee public transport operators. That is why the Scottish Government has committed to providing some Wednesday 10 March 2021 £765 million of additional support for transport operators. We know that challenges lie ahead, but our transport transition plan continues to evolve, [The Convener opened the meeting at 10:00] and officials continue to work to ensure that we Transport (Update) meet the country’s needs and keep Scotland moving. The Convener (Edward Mountain): Good The Scottish Government has delivered major morning, everyone, and welcome to the Rural transport infrastructure projects across Scotland. Economy and Connectivity Committee’s ninth The Aberdeen western peripheral route has meeting in 2021. I ask everyone to ensure that delivered much-welcomed improvements to their phones are on silent. The meeting will be journey times for local road users in the north- conducted in a virtual format. east, and it has cut the level of heavy goods vehicle traffic along the A82 corridor through Agenda item 1 is an evidence session on Aberdeen. The Edinburgh to Glasgow transport. I welcome the Cabinet Secretary for improvement programme for rail has delivered a Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity, Michael journey time of 42 minutes between the two cities, Matheson, and his Scottish Government officials: and we have opened stations in communities such Bill Reeve, who is the director of rail; Alison Irvine, as Robroyston and Kintore. who is the director of transport strategy and analysis; and Jo Blewett, who is the head of the We are already investing a record £100.5 million design team. per annum in active travel, which is assured for the next five years in the programme for Before we move to questions—the cabinet government, and that will increase next year to secretary may wish to make a brief opening £115.5 million. Our strategic transport projects statement, too—we have a declaration of interests review has made recommendations for phase 1 from Stewart Stevenson. and will report later this year, setting out a future Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan transport investment plan for the next 20 years. Coast) (SNP): I draw the committee’s attention to Today, the United Kingdom Government my entry in the register of members’ interests, published its “Union Connectivity Review: Interim which shows that I am honorary president of the Report”. Decisions on transport are a devolved Scottish Association of Public Transport and matter, but the union connectivity review was honorary vice-president of Railfuture UK. established without any discussion or consultation The Convener: Thank you, Mr Stevenson. with the Scottish Government. We will always seek to engage constructively with the UK I invite the cabinet secretary to make a brief Government, and never in a way that would opening statement. undermine the devolved settlement. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport, We have robust processes in Scotland for Infrastructure and Connectivity (Michael identifying our investment priorities. Those Matheson): Good morning, committee. In the processes are not undertaken in isolation and are current session of Parliament, the Government in place to allow the assessment of spending has made significant progress across all areas of priorities across Government. The committee will transport, and we have shown a strong be fully aware of that, as I come before it regularly commitment to the long-term future of transport. In to face scrutiny of those processes, priorities and February 2020, we published our “National decisions. We are already evidencing future Transport Strategy”, which set out a compelling transport investment in Scotland through the vision for Scotland’s transport system over the second strategic transport projects review, and not next 20 years. We introduced the bill that became through the union connectivity review. What the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, which was Scotland needs now is an infrastructure-led Scotland’s first major piece of transport legislation economic recovery to deliver new jobs and to in 14 years, and we recently published our speed up the transition to net zero. With a 5 per “Update to the Climate Change Plan 2018-2032” cent cut to our capital budget in the UK’s spending document, which sets out Scotland’s pathway to review for 2021-22, that becomes more difficult. 2032 through reaching net zero by 2045 and

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On that note, I am happy to respond to Michael Matheson: I do not have the specific questions from the committee. figures on management fees in front of me; Bill Reeve might be able to provide you with that The Convener: Thank you, cabinet secretary. information. The management fee for the initial There are quite a lot of questions—I am sure that EMA was slightly higher than that which was set members will keep them short in order to allow out in the second EMA, and the provisions in the you to answer in the same way. third EMA are likely to be similar. I ask Colin Smyth to start. Are you going to roll Bill Reeve (Scottish Government): Good up your rail questions into one, Colin? It would morning. I am afraid that I do not have that figure seem logical for you to go with all of them to hand, but I will write to the committee with it. I together. can confirm what the cabinet secretary said: the Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab): Okay, figure for the second period is anticipated to be a convener—I was not going to do that, but I will. little lower, and we are looking at appropriate and entirely performance-related incentives for any Good morning, cabinet secretary. As the future agreement. convener said, I will kick off with a question on rail. The emergency measures agreements with Colin Smyth: Thank you for that. Turning to the Abellio and Serco for the ScotRail and Caledonian future, cabinet secretary, what discussions have sleeper services are due to expire at the end of you had with the UK Government on the future this month. Does Transport Scotland intend to provision of rail services, and the planned rail continue with EMAs from April onwards? What is white paper in particular? the estimated cost to the taxpayer of the extra Michael Matheson: Officials have engaged with support that is being paid to Abellio and Serco? colleagues at the Department for Transport, but Michael Matheson: Yes—we are taking there is no clarity as yet from the UK Government forward work to put in place further EMAs for both on the publication of its white paper, which is now the Caledonian sleeper and ScotRail franchises. more than a year late. We have had a few false We intend to take those EMAs to the end of the dawns with regard to its possible publication. A franchise period, in March 2022, and we are few weeks ago, I heard that it might be published currently drawing together a case to put to the at the beginning of March, but we are almost in the Cabinet Secretary for Finance. At this stage, the middle of March and it has still not appeared. figures on that have still to be finalised, but we I do not have any clarity on exactly when it will estimate that approximately £452 million in be published. However, prior to the white paper additional support has been provided between being drawn together, I engaged on several March last year and March this year. I expect that occasions with Keith Williams, who is carrying out a broadly similar level of support will be required a UK rail review, to set out what I believe is for the remaining year, through to March 2022. important in order to ensure that Scotland has a We face a significant challenge in trying to give more integrated rail system that will improve the committee more specific figures on that. We services for passengers. I know that those factors hope that, later this year, we will start to see were taken into account in his report to the UK recovery and a return to the use of public transport Government. However, we do not yet know how at significantly higher levels than we have seen in that aspect will be manifested in the white paper, the past year. It is possible, therefore, that further and we will not know that until it is published. revenue returns will be achieved; however, at this Colin Smyth: It looks as though the new stage, it is difficult to predict what those might be. arrangements may not kick in before March 2022, The EMA will be designed on the basis that we when the current Abellio ScotRail franchise ends. need to continue to provide financial support so What, specifically, do you intend to do with regard that staff have security of employment and to the running of services from March 2022 if the travellers have access to rail services. new provisions have not been put in place? Will Colin Smyth: You mentioned the estimated you extend the Abellio ScotRail franchise? cost up to March this year. Last month, Transport Michael Matheson: The arrangements that we Scotland eventually published figures that will put in place after March 2022 are, to some confirmed that, between March and September degree, subject to changes that may be afforded 2020, the Government paid Abellio and Serco by the white paper. However, we are looking at £499.1 million. That was £231.5 million more than several different options, and I intend to update the franchise agreement for the first EMA, which Parliament before we go into recess on what ran until September 2020. Can you confirm how approach we will take in March 2022. To some much of that extra money was for management extent, that depends on what is in the white paper, fees for the two companies? When will we know but I will certainly update Parliament before the the cost of management fees for the EMA that has been in place since September?

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recess period starts on what measures we will put budget, between £1.3 billion and £1.4 billion to in place at that time. run? Is that right, or have I got the figures wrong? Colin Smyth: Thank you, cabinet secretary. As Michael Matheson: No—I think you might be you know, my preferred option would be that we correct. I will ask Bill Reeve whether he has to have a public sector organisation running the hand the overall figure for the operation of rail franchise from March 2022. Are you looking at that services. The £452 million that I mentioned is option? Are you absolutely ruling out any prospect additional support that has been provided for rail of extending the Abellio franchise from March services. I do not have the overall figure in front of 2022? me—I do not know whether Bill has it to hand. Michael Matheson: As I said, I will, prior to the recess, set out exactly what approach we will take 10:15 after March 2022. I believe not only that we should The Convener: I am sure that he has. Bill, can have a public sector-controlled railway but that we you confirm that? need an integrated railway system so that there is a direct connection between the infrastructure Bill Reeve: You are exactly right, convener— arrangements and passenger services. The the incremental figures take us up to between £1.3 franchise system is broken—I think that that is billion and £1.4 billion. The cabinet secretary is now universally accepted. We need a system that also correct in saying that the extent to which the allows for greater integration between level of additional subsidy needs to continue infrastructure and passenger services, and that is depends on the rate at which passengers are able what we will be looking for in the white paper. to return safely to the railway service. In essence, the increment over our normal expenditure is to fill As things stand, we do not have the legal the gap left by the missing passenger revenue. powers to effect that change in a way that could The sooner the revenue comes back, the lower we deliver better services for passengers and a more expect the overall level of support to be next year. effective and efficient railway system in Scotland. Of course, we do not yet know how quickly, to However, it will be part of our planning and what level or at what rate that will occur. thinking should those powers become available to us. As I said, I intend to set out the details prior to The Convener: If passenger growth is in line the recess so that members and, in particular, with predictions, it will be fairly slow and those who work on Scotland’s railways have a incremental in the last part of this year as we clear understanding of what action the Scottish come out of lockdown, so the revenue levels will Government is going to take. probably remain roughly the same and there will not be a huge leap in fare incomes. Colin Smyth: The Scottish Government took the decision to break up the ScotRail franchise Bill Reeve: During summer last year, revenues into two separate parts. Although we know that the moved back towards the 30 per cent level, and Abellio franchise ends in 2022, as things stand, they continued to increase until we started to the Serco franchise for the Caledonian sleeper move back into lockdown. I have no doubt that runs until 2030. Can you confirm whether the there is an appetite to travel around our wonderful plans that you will outline in the future will cover country when it is safe to do so. I am afraid that the Serco franchise? You say that you are in my crystal ball is a little cloudy, but I am cautiously favour of a public sector-run railway, but—to be optimistic that there will be a return to leisure and frank—Serco is not in the public sector and you tourism travel, in particular, as soon as that is safe currently have a commitment for that franchise to and legal. run until 2030. Will you end that franchise, too, The Convener: Time will tell. and bring the Caledonian sleeper under public control? Michael Matheson: Bill Reeve makes an important point. Some of the recovery that we saw Michael Matheson: I intend to set out the last year was largely in leisure travel rather than in direction of travel for the ScotRail franchise after business travel. The uncertainty as we move 2022; decisions on the Serco franchise will be forward concerns not just the rate of recovery but determined more by what is set out in the UK the nature of that recovery. At present, there is Government’s white paper. The immediate action quite a high level of uncertainty, so the figures are that we take will relate to the ScotRail franchise provisional and could change markedly. rather than the Caledonian sleeper franchise. The Convener: That is noted. The next The Convener: Before we move on, cabinet questions are from John Finnie. secretary, I would like you to clarify something. You said that there is additional extra money to John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green): the tune of £450 million. Can you confirm that that Good morning, cabinet secretary and officials. Do means that the railways cost, as part of the you anticipate that there will be any further rounds

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of support for bus, tram and subway services? If to get information on the full outcomes from local so, what form will that support take and how much authorities at the end of this month—I will be might be available? happy to share that directly with the committee once we have had those returns from our local Michael Matheson: As I announced on government colleagues. Monday, we have provided additional funding of around £61.4 million in financial support for public Maureen Watt (Aberdeen South and North bus operators. The purpose of that funding is to fill Kincardine) (SNP): Good morning, cabinet the gap left by revenue that has been lost as a secretary. With regard to pop-up bus result of reduced passenger numbers and to infrastructure, I hope that you will carry out a good enable operators to maintain services while review of how the money was spent throughout keeping in place social distancing measures, local authorities. It should focus on Aberdeen, which have an impact on their fare box. where bus stops were moved from their normal places and street furniture was put in, although it As I mentioned in my opening comments, we has now been totally removed. The work was so have provided around £765 million overall in unnecessary, and it meant that bus stops were not support for rail, bus, light rail and ferry operators near where the real-time information boards were. since March last year. I anticipate that the level of It was a complete waste of time, and a waste of a funding that bus operators will need after June this lot of money. The whole thing—certainly Aberdeen year, which is when the £61 million will take us up City Council’s use of that money—needs to be to, is unclear because it depends on recovery and reviewed. the level of passenger return, as well as on whether social distancing has to be maintained. Michael Matheson: We will certainly look at that specifically. I know that some local authorities I suspect that some of the light rail services will have used some of the spaces for people money require further financial support. We will consider alongside the bus infrastructure funding. Some of those services individually, as we have done in the the streets and roads that have been closed off past year. I also anticipate that ferry services will have been supported through the spaces for require financial support. Although they are people programme. Nonetheless, I will be happy planning to ramp up for a full summer timetable if to take the issue away and look at it. As I said, we necessary, they will probably still have to maintain are expecting feedback from all local authorities by a level of physical distancing, which will have an the end of March. impact on their revenues. Maureen Watt: In Aberdeen, none of the There will be a need for continued financial changes was made in consultation with the bus support, and I will submit a request to our companies. colleagues in finance to enable us to meet those requirements at the appropriate time. The Convener: Thank you, deputy convener— there is some food for thought there. John Finnie: Thank you for that. I appreciate that, looking ahead, there is a significant measure The next question is from Stewart Stevenson, of uncertainty. and then I will bring in Jamie Halcro Johnston. I will stick with buses. In July last year, the Stewart Stevenson: I see what Jamie Halcro Scottish Government allocated £10 million for Johnston is going to ask, so I will not tread on that coronavirus-related pop-up bus infrastructure. area. What has been installed using those funds, and I have a simple question, cabinet secretary, as what impact has it had on bus travel? an extension to what you have already said. When Michael Matheson: The £10 million was do you expect that CalMac Ferries will transfer allocated to local authorities and their partners, from its winter timetable to its summer timetable? and they have taken that work forward. The final Will the usual summer timetable be in place? You details of the work are due to be completed by the commented on the reduced carrying capacity of end of this month, and by the end of March we ferries. Will the usual frequency and destinations should have all the returns from local authorities. apply? Some authorities have been using the money Michael Matheson: You will be aware that, last specifically for pop-up bus infrastructure such as summer, we operated what is termed a “shoulder” temporary bus stops close to vaccination centres timetable to try to meet an increased level of or hospitals, and some of them have been using it demand, while understanding that demand would to support some of the permanent bus not return to its normal levels because of the infrastructure that they are putting in place—we restrictions that were still in place at that time. have agreed to that. It is supporting a variety of types of infrastructure, including temporary This year, we have asked CalMac to put in infrastructure and, to a certain degree, some place arrangements so that, if the restrictions are elements of permanent infrastructure. We expect eased sufficiently to enable people to travel again,

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it can step up to a full timetable. It has taken internally within Transport Scotland. However, I forward planning on the basis that it will be able to can assure you that we are taking the necessary recruit in order to operate a full timetable across action to try to resolve the matter, and we will the network this summer. address it when we can. However, capacity will be limited. Decisions in Equally, I am sure that you will welcome the that regard will be taken in the next couple of significant additional funding that we allocated in months, when we can see potential indications our budget yesterday to support the northern isles that travel restrictions are starting to ease. CalMac councils in meeting the costs that they face for has put in place an arrangement to enable it to local ferry services. I have no doubt that that will step up to run a full timetable this summer if be welcomed by your constituents in Orkney and necessary. In April—I cannot remember whether it Shetland, given that that has been a long-standing is at the beginning of the month or later on— issue for them. CalMac will look to update its timetable booking Jamie Halcro Johnston: Can I come back on system to allow people to start booking travel over that very quickly, convener? I welcome that the summer months. Over the next couple of funding, because we have been campaigning for it weeks, we will get a better idea of the situation for many years. My concern, however, is that we and then, over the next couple of months, CalMac will have to wait as long for the promise on will be able to operationalise its plans for summer, reduced fares to be delivered as we did with the depending on what the travel restrictions look like. promise on funding internal ferries. The Convener: I go to Jamie Halcro Johnston I am from Orkney, and I recognise the for a question, before I go back to Stewart importance of these routes. It seems that my Stevenson. constituents have been promised something for Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and which we are still waiting four years later. Although Islands) (Con): Good morning to the cabinet I welcome the fact that it is still a live issue that is secretary and his team. Today’s edition of The being worked through, I do not have a huge Orcadian highlights frustrations from Pentland amount of confidence—and nor do people in Ferries that the much-promised reduced ferry Orkney, in my view—that the Scottish Government fares on the Pentland Firth routes have still not is likely to resolve the matter any time soon. been delivered. Those were promised in 2017 by Michael Matheson: I will just respond— Humza Yousaf, who actually visited Orkney to make that promise. Delivery was planned by 2018, The Convener: Hold on, cabinet secretary. I but that deadline was missed. caution everyone that I like questions rather than statements. That goes for everyone. I know that At the time, cabinet secretary, you blamed that something is coming up in a couple of months’ on state aid rules and the failure to agree a deal time, but we are here to ask questions. Cabinet with the operators. European Union state aid rules secretary, I am happy if you want to make a no longer apply, and the legal challenge from statement, but I do not take a good view of political Pentland Ferries has concluded. Can you advise points being made in questions or in answers. me what the barriers are now to delivering reduced ferry fares on those routes? Given that you previously intimated to me that only partial 10:30 funding has been earmarked for that commitment Michael Matheson: I will just respond to the in the 2021-22 budget, its delivery is not expected statement, convener. I am disappointed that the any time soon. When do you expect to fulfil the member feels that way, because he will be aware promise to reduce fares on the Pentland Firth that we put in discount schemes to help to address routes? the challenges that we face because of the legal Michael Matheson: The member is right to say challenge. However, I welcome the fact that he that there were legal challenges from Pentland has acknowledged and welcomed the additional Ferries around the introduction of the road funding that we have provided for local ferry equivalent tariff on the northern isles routes, which services in the northern isles—although I am delayed progress on the matter. Given the current disappointed that he chose to vote against the legal standing of the challenge, and the European budget that will provide that. Commission’s view on the matter, officials are The Convener: Cabinet secretary, you could currently working through the implications of not help yourself, but you are not going to get moving forward with any changes to ferry fares on away with that again. Stewart Stevenson, will you those routes. come in with your questions? At present, I cannot give you the exact Stewart Stevenson: Thank you, convener. I do timeframe for taking that forward, because there not think that we will travel into similarly murky are still some legal issues that need to be resolved water, here.

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I will consolidate my questions into one. The Finally, on active freeways and the £50 million reduced use of public transport is associated with that we have allocated for those, the concept is reduced travel altogether, and we do not know about providing active travel links to major cultural what travel patterns or modes will look like post settings, for example, or links between towns, so coronavirus. How will the Government and that people can commute between towns or Transport Scotland make sure—to the extent that access major tourist events. Part of the work that it is possible—that people who might be using cars we are doing now involves working with partners instead of making public transport journeys do not in local government to consider some of those simply continue to do that? Just to roll up the other options and how they can be developed and aspect of it, we are all keen for active travel to be progressed during the next couple of years. encouraged, so can the cabinet secretary say Stewart Stevenson: Cabinet secretary, do you anything about the active freeway proposals and share my frustration about the way in which the the timetable for the implementation of those? costs of different alternatives for travel are Michael Matheson: You have raised a number presented? For example, the fully amortised cost of important issues and the significant challenge of using my little Honda Civic to travel from that we face in coming out of the pandemic. There Banffshire to Edinburgh is approximately 50 per is a danger that some of the habits that have been cent higher than the total cost of travelling by train, formed by people making use of their private car even without using a senior rail card. However, during the pandemic become a lasting legacy people think otherwise. Similarly, when we see once the pandemic ends. comparisons between flying to London and getting the train, the air fares shown are often ones that A number of factors are important. The first is to apply when bought three weeks in advance to get reassure the public that it is safe to use public discounts, but the rail fares that are shown are transport at the present time, but people should walk-up ones. What role could the Government travel only if it is absolutely essential, and should play in helping us to understand the relative follow the guidance about using face coverings, economics of different travel modes? keeping socially distanced and so on. What will be important—and we have engaged with transport To encourage us more, can you tell us when providers on this—is that we help to incentivise catering will be back on trains? People definitely people to move back to public transport once we cannot have that in their car, and it makes their can encourage them to do so. For example, could journey so much more pleasant. more attractive ticketing regimes or discount The Convener: Cabinet secretary, you will have schemes be offered to incentivise people back on to provide coffee to get Stewart back on the train. to our rail network? ScotRail is doing that work by looking at various options, and I know that some Michael Matheson: I get the message, bus operators are doing likewise. convener. You will be aware of the reasons why there is no catering at present. It will, of course, be Secondly, we need to support people who have reintroduced as early as possible. I appreciate that chosen to make greater use of active travel during the convener and Stewart Stevenson have fairly the pandemic. The ramping up of our funding for long journeys as they return to the north-east of active travel, and the provision of the long-term Scotland. security of a five-year investment programme, will support our colleagues in local government and In response to your wider point about what we other sectors that invest in active travel to put that can do, very often we are not comparing apples infrastructure in place in a way that encourages with apples when it comes to comparing prices. people to continue to use active travel. The cost of running your Honda Civic from your home to Parliament does not involve only the fuel Thirdly, and importantly, particularly when it cost; it also involves all the wear and tear on your comes to bus travel, is the need to increase the car and road tax costs that are associated with prioritisation of buses in our road space, with that journey. Those are often not presented when dedicated bus routes and bus priority lighting at costs are compared with rail. junctions, all of which can help to improve journey times and make using buses much more The same applies to some aspects of aviation. attractive. That is why we are providing such a The costs that are associated with flying include significant amount of money—more than £0.5 getting a taxi to the airport or parking there, and so billion in the next five years—through the bus on. All those things are not often factored in. You partnership fund. are right that we need to have more accurate comparative data to reflect that. I am more than We can do a variety of things, some in the short happy to take away that point, and I think that term and others in the medium to long term, to there is something that the Government can do to encourage people back on to public transport and give a more accurate comparison between to encourage more people to make use of public transport in the future.

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different modes of transport and the true costs that local people and stakeholders to identify their are associated with them. priorities. The Convener: I should say at this stage that I will be perfectly frank with the committee. The there are other vehicles in addition to those that discussion that I had yesterday with the Secretary have been mentioned. However, that probably of State for Transport, Grant Shapps, was not goes without saying. about working in partnership with us or recognising the appraisal process that we have Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP): Good undertaken. In fact, the discussion was bizarre to morning, everybody. I have a couple of questions the extent that the transport secretary in England about the national transport strategy. I know that a was not aware of the transport corridor study that lot of work has been done on that and on the we had already carried out. He was not aware of strategic transport projects review. In your opening the fact that we had identified the nature of the statement, you spoke a little about the union investment that is required on roads such as the connectivity review. I have concerns about that, A75. He wanted me to accept that the A75 should because there has already been a lot of hard work be our key priority, over and above any other road on the strategic transport projects review. In my project in Scotland—over and above the Rest and region, there are big issues with the A75, the A76 Be Thankful, the A83, the A82, the A96, the A9 and the A77, which need investment. The cabinet and the A1. It had to be the A75. secretary has heard me bleat on about that for a long time. I am concerned about the union You cannot operate a system when you are connectivity review and whether it will detract from quite literally being told that one road should be the work that has already taken place on the your key priority. There has to be a balance across STPR. all the other competing demands not just in the south-west of Scotland but throughout Scotland, Michael Matheson: I recognise that Emma such as rail investment, investment in the A75, the Harper has raised that issue with me on a number A76 and the A77, and investment in active travel, of occasions. to make sure that they reflect the feedback that we The national transport strategy is critical in received during the consultation process. helping to shape our transport priorities for the It is the STPR2 process that will determine our next 10 to 20 years and the process of investment, not the union connectivity review, determining what those priorities will be. We have which is very superficial in its engagement. set out in the NTS the transport hierarchy, which is Significant work has already been carried out in reflected in our investment hierarchy. Issues such the south-west of Scotland, which will help to as active travel and new roads are within that inform the finalised STPR2 when it is published structure. later this year. The STPR2 process is the strategic process that Emma Harper: In addition to what you have we use for determining the transport investment described, there are other processes, including a priorities in any given area. Ms Harper will be discrete piece of work to look at a fixed link aware of the south-west Scotland transport between Britain and Northern Ireland. How can we corridor study in her constituency area. If I recall follow the public money in such processes? Is it correctly, it has identified around 23 interventions the modus operandi of the UK Government to do that should be considered for investment in the discrete pieces of work without engaging local area to improve connectivity. Those interventions communities? People in Stranraer want to be cover all modes, from active travel to rail and road. consulted on any plans, but I am not sure how that The study identifies some of the key roads that Ms would work if discrete pieces of work went ahead Harper has mentioned, including the A75, the A76 without engaging the people who will be directly and the A77, and it identifies areas for priority impacted by the infrastructure investment. investment on those roads—for example, bypasses or road realignment. Significant work Michael Matheson: Yesterday afternoon, I had has already been undertaken in the appraisal a discussion with Sir Peter Hendy, who drafted the process for the south-west of Scotland, including union connectivity review report and who has been the A75, to identify what changes require to be commissioned by the Prime Minister to take it made to roads in the area. forward. I cannot speak for him, but I get the distinct impression that, whatever the feedback Putting the politics of it aside, the problem with was on the idea of a bridge or a tunnel, that had to the union connectivity review is that it is a very be in the report one way or the other. shallow process. Something like 100 individuals throughout the UK made representations to the review. I think that the south-west Scotland 10:45 transport corridor study engaged almost 2,500 Last night, I discussed the union connectivity review with my counterpart Nichola Mallon, who is

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the Minister for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland. use it, and encouraging people, where they can, to Her view was absolutely the same as mine, which make use of active travel options, particularly for is that a bridge or a tunnel—regardless of whether short local journeys. The investment that we are the feasibility study is on one of those options or making in public transport, such as in bus both, and given all the other infrastructure prioritisation, and active travel options is critical in priorities that they, like we, have—is not a priority supporting the modal shift away from car use, for Northern Ireland. Given that, in December last particularly for short journeys. year, the Institution of Civil Engineers, which The other necessary aspect is behaviour knows a thing or two about building infrastructure change. That could be aided by the pandemic, of that nature, suggested that it could cost given the way in which business practices have between £40 billion and £50 billion, the danger in changed. More people are working from home, for trying to plough ahead with, and give priority to, example. Some businesses that had staff in the such a project would be that it would just suck office five or six days a week might decide to have financial resource away from other infrastructure staff in on only two or three days a week. Those projects—not just transport infrastructure projects, who commuted by car would therefore reduce but projects for building schools, hospitals and their car journeys. housing. A change of behaviour would be required That is the whole problem with the union alongside incentives to encourage people to make connectivity review. It is not about our grounding greater use of active travel and public transport. I decisions on the basis of local needs that have emphasise that the transport sector cannot deliver been identified through assessment; rather, it is the reduction on its own—that will require co- about what has already been identified as the ordinated action across a number of areas. outcome that is wanted. The report has been designed in such a way as to deliver on that. On your second question, which was about CO2 emissions, it would be fair to say that there has The bridge or tunnel is nothing more than a been an overall reduction in CO emissions in vanity project and, as I have said previously, it will 2 Scotland over the past 10 years, but any not happen in my lifetime. With all due respect, I emissions increase in any sector, or in any suspect that it will not happen in the lifetime of element of a sector, is always a matter of concern. anybody on the committee. A key part of the challenge is supporting people to The Convener: I have given everyone quite a move to ultra-low-emission vehicles. We have a lot of leeway, and I am deliberately trying to steer programme in place to support people to move to people away from going down political routes. electric and ultra-low-emission vehicles. That Emma Harper wanted to ask other questions. I ask involves not only supporting them to purchase people to be mindful of the difficulties that we have those vehicles, but making sure that we have in in conflating two things. place the infrastructure to allow them to make that move. Scotland now has the highest number of Emma Harper: Thank you, convener. I just charging points per 100,000 of the population in wanted to take the opportunity to ask that question the UK, and we already have in place plans to look while the cabinet secretary is here. You are right: I at how we can reinforce and develop that have a couple of other questions. infrastructure even further. First, in yesterday’s debate, we talked about the Our measures are a combination of supporting fact that there should be a reduction in the people in the transition to ultra-low-emission distance driven by cars by 20 per cent over 10 vehicles and providing the infrastructure so that, years. How confident is the cabinet secretary that when they do that, they are able to charge their we will be able to reduce the distance travelled by cars as conveniently as possible. cars? The Convener: The deputy convener wants to Secondly, CO emissions from cars have 2 come in. If Emma Harper has a supplementary, I increased over the past four years in Scotland, am happy to bring her back in after that. despite the Scottish Government’s support for ultra-low-emission vehicles. What action can the Maureen Watt: On the increase in vehicle Scottish Government take to reverse that trend? usage, can you drill down into what types of vehicles those are? If people are staying at home Michael Matheson: The target of a 20 per cent and getting deliveries rather than going out to reduction in distance driven over 10 years is very shop, has that led to the increase? ambitious, particularly given that transport is a derived demand. That cannot be delivered by the We do not have control of vehicle taxation, transport sector on its own; it will require a range which is still a reserved matter. How can we of actions across different areas. A key part of that encourage people who do not need a sport utility will be making public transport as attractive a vehicle not to buy one? I am talking about people proposition as possible to encourage people to who drive around the centre of Edinburgh and

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Aberdeen. They are not driving around fields, like fact, I think that this one of the committee’s the convener does in his SUV. Sorry, convener. recommendations for the climate change plan— there should be a continued focus on freight and The Convener: Thank you. I am pretty happy to the emissions that come from it as we move admit that I have not met a vehicle that can go off- forward. road that is not an SUV. As has been touched on in various questions Michael Matheson: I will not get into a trade and answers during the meeting, we are in war about which vehicle folk should have, and relatively deep uncertainty about what the future whether that should be a Honda, a Toyota or a might hold for transport. We are quite well sighted Land Rover—although, personally, I am a Honda on where some of the risks lie, in terms of fan. On the wider question about vehicle types, I emissions and achieving the national transport will ask Alison Irvine to come in, because she is strategy priorities and outcomes overall. I will our data guru on that. leave it there. During the pandemic, we have seen quite an Emma Harper: During Covid, we have seen uptick in local van deliveries, because of the more e-bikes and e-cargo bikes being used. I have increasing amount of people making use of online raised this with the cabinet secretary on his delivery services, whether that be Amazon or previous visits to the committee. We have 20mph anyone else, including shops, for goods. zones popping up in loads of towns, including On tax incentives, there is a need for a carrot- Dumfries, and I assume that that reduction in the and-stick approach to incentivise people to move speed limit for cars will increase safety. I also towards greater use of ultra-low-emission vehicles. assume that the Government will be able to look at We have only to look across the North Sea to measurements of the use of e-cargo bikes and Norway to see how it has been successful in other bikes in town centres, and correlate those getting a significant transition to ultra-low-emission figures with the introduction of 20mph zones, vehicles, particularly electric vehicles, through tax which make cycling safer. incentives. I do not think that they apply VAT to Michael Matheson: There is a funding system their electric vehicles, which makes their cost through which third sector organisations and some significantly lower than combustion engine businesses can secure funding to purchase e- vehicles. cargo bikes, particularly for carrying out local I believe that there is a need to look at how we deliveries. can use tax incentives as a means by which we The work that Scottish Borders Council is taking encourage people to move to ultra-low-emission forward is a very good example of a local authority vehicles. Tax is a reserved matter. My using its powers to introduce 20mph zones on a understanding is that the UK Government is very localised basis that is specific to their area. looking at the issue, but it is not clear yet exactly We want to share the experience in Borders with how it intends to go about doing that. other local authorities across Scotland, because If there is time, convener, Alison Irvine might be they already have very extensive powers in that able to give you a bit more in the way of hard data area. on some of the behaviour patterns that we have We have carried out review work with local witnessed during the past nine to 10 months. authorities on the use of 20mph zones. Some Alison Irvine (Scottish Government): I am authorities have strategies and some do not; some happy to do so. As the cabinet secretary outlined, prioritise and some do not. We are now going to we have been monitoring travel demand over the take forward further work to help support them to course of the pandemic, and we publish that deliver a more effective introduction of 20mph weekly. It is very definitely related to which of the zones in their local areas. restrictions are in place. From an emissions The committee will be aware of my view, from perspective, and particularly in relation to cars, we our previous consideration of the matter, that are seeing overall that fewer new cars are being decision making on 20mph zones is best taken at purchased and people are holding on to their a local level, to reflect the local circumstances. We vehicles longer. A myriad of reasons will lie behind want to help support that, and that is part of the that, and it will be a driving factor in determining work that we are taking forward. the level of car emissions. All of that can help to support and encourage On what we would describe as large goods people to make greater use of active travel locally. vehicle emissions, the pandemic has accelerated a behaviour that we had already started to see, John Finnie: I note that you are rightly which is a move from individual personal trips to trumpeting the approach that has been taken by retail parks and high streets to online deliveries. Scottish Borders Council. Do you see any irony in That is one reason why I would suggest that—in the resistance that there was to my colleague

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Mark Ruskell’s very sensible bill, which focused on authorities to require them to support the the position of Scottish Borders Council? Welcome associated guidance that will be necessary, to though the progress is, given that it will result in undertake the assessment of streets and to fewer injuries and deaths, is that ironic? identify streets where potential exemptions will be required for on-street parking. That process has started. The commencement regulations have 11:00 been laid, and officials are now consulting with Michael Matheson: No, I do not see it as ironic. local authorities to develop the parking standards As I said at the time, I recognised the intention guidance, which will underpin the provisions in the behind Mark Ruskell’s bill, and I agree with many act. parts of what it intended to do. The problem was that it sought to take a one-size-fits-all approach, Early last month, we issued to local authorities which was highlighted as being inappropriate and for their consideration the latest draft of the not effective for some local authorities. The chapters that will allow them to undertake the problem with applying a blanket legislative assessment of their streets, and asked them to approach is that it creates unintended provide us with feedback. We are also consulting consequences. That is why the approach that we colleagues in local authorities on the exemption are taking is about ensuring that local authorities order process, which will be taken forward in the take a strategic approach to the introduction of next few months, with a view to making the 20mph zones at local level. Many local authorities regulations in the area by the end of the year. are doing that. For example, major local We are making progress on the issue, and I authorities such as Glasgow City Council have set hope that we will continue to make good progress out their plans for rolling out such zones. on it in the coming months. Councils have the powers and capability to do Angus MacDonald: That is good to hear. I am that. We are considering what further measures sure that that will be welcomed not just by the we can put in place to support them in introducing committee but by our colleague Sandra White, 20mph zones in their areas, including in relation to who had a member’s bill on the issue in the some of the associated technical and financial previous session of Parliament that was dropped aspects. We are doing that in a way that is just before the previous election. It is good to hear reflective of the local circumstances and local about that progress. decision making by local councillors. Sticking with the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, Angus MacDonald (Falkirk East) (SNP): I turn when do you expect the key bus-related provisions to the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019. At our of the act to enter into force and when can meeting on 2 September last year, we asked you passengers expect to see service improvements about progress in developing secondary legislation flowing from those changes? on a range of transport matters, and you informed the committee that officials were working on those Michael Matheson: The bus elements of the issues but that no timescales for delivery were 2019 act were impacted by the pandemic, in the available. Specifically, given that pedestrians are same way as the parking provisions were. Work at the top of the sustainable transport hierarchy in has now started on the bus provisions. A the national transport strategy, can you explain stakeholders workshop is due to take place next what action the Scottish Government is taking to week, the primary purpose of which is to inform expedite the introduction of a ban on pavement the public consultation exercise that will be and dropped-kerb parking? necessary on some of the regulations that are associated with the provisions. Our intention is Michael Matheson: You are correct that that that the consultation exercise should take place was the position back in September, because later this year, after the election. officials had had to move away from dealing with the introduction of the provisions in the Transport Once we have completed the consultation on (Scotland) Act 2019 to deal with matters relating to the provisions, we will be able to introduce the the pandemic. Towards the latter part of summer relevant secondary legislation to Parliament and last year, we were able to start moving some staff issue the associated guidance. Work has started. I back to dealing with issues relating to the act. expect the consultation to be completed in the months ahead and, once it has been completed, We restarted the process on the parking we will be able to consider the introduction of the provisions, and there is currently a development secondary legislation to Parliament, which I hope programme for secondary legislation, which aims will be later this year. to bring those provisions into force. We introduced further commencement regulations in December Jamie Halcro Johnston: On 10 February, you last year, which bring sections of the act into force told me in the committee that the Scottish that will enable us to issue directions to local Government remains committed to dualling the A9 and the timeframes that have been set out for that.

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You then helpfully wrote to me to confirm that the years. When that process is completed in the 2025 date was “a very challenging target”. The summer, we will have a better line of sight of the First Minister told me last week that work is being capacity in the commercial sector to undertake done “as quickly as possible” and that the Scottish major works. Government is working to the original target dates, Jamie Halcro Johnston: I know that Maureen if possible. She said: Watt has questions on the A96, but I have another “if that is not possible, we will do it as close to the question on the A9. Do you have an estimate for original target dates as possible.”—[Official Report, 4 the percentage of the work that still has to be done March 2021; c 18.] on the A9 project by the 2025 completion date? If That is not exactly encouraging. there is time, I might ask a question about the A82. Given that you have said that a meaningful update will not be available until the summer, after Michael Matheson: The programme of made the Scottish election, can you confirm now orders for four further sections of the A9, which I whether work to dual the A9 is on target or is announced today, and the public local inquiry behind the projected timescales? If it is behind the reports for the next three schemes, which we projected timescales, how far behind is it—months expect to be submitted, will take us pretty close to or years? Do you still expect the project to be the statutory process being complete for 92 per delivered within its projected budget of £3 billion? cent of the road. We are taking forward the one If not, what is the new projected cost? remaining area on a co-productive basis, whereby the local community is involved in the process, Michael Matheson: The project is still on target and that is taking longer than anticipated. to be completed by 2025 and within the budget However, I expect that, by later this year, the that was set for it. Significant progress has been statutory process will, by and large, have been made. The member will be aware of the completed for 92 per cent of the whole route. announcement that I made just over a week ago that the section from Tomatin to Moy will progress Jamie Halcro Johnston: You are certainly to procurement. That will involve £115 million- more confident about that than I am. worth of investment and will result in the dualling Of the A82—now Scotland’s deadliest road—the of the most northerly section in the project. This Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Kate Forbes, who morning, I have announced that we are moving to is currently the local MSP, has said that complete the process of made orders for four further sections of the A9, which will allow us to “it’s definitely one of the most challenging roads in the progress the statutory procurement process later country. Over the years, I’ve seen or heard about this year. Significant progress is being made. accidents, near misses, branches falling onto the road, tyre-shredding potholes, convoys of slow-moving vehicles, The pandemic has had an impact on the lengthy delays and closures. Change must, can and will existing works. You will be aware that there was a happen.” closure of construction works during the pandemic When will it happen? last year, and the contractors are seeking to catch up in that regard. At present, the contractors still Michael Matheson: Kate Forbes is an effective indicate that, if all goes well, they expect the representative for her constituents, and she section to be complete by the winter of this year, regularly raises issues about the A82 on their which we hope will be the case. behalf with Transport Scotland officials and directly with me. Provision for improvements to We are making progress with the procurement sections of the A82 is included in the second of the most northerly section and the made orders strategic transport projects review—STPR2— for four further sections. Completing the statutory which is the gateway to progressing identified process for the remaining sections later this year required improvements to the A82, as is the case will allow us to continue to make progress with the for all other aspects of the trunk road network in construction of the road. Scotland. Between now and the summer of this year, we Maureen Watt: My questions are similar to will work with the construction sector to do further Jamie Halcro Johnston’s, but they relate to the assessment work. Some of the construction A96 dualling project, which is due for completion in companies that are involved have been impacted 2030—five years later than the A9 project. The by Covid in relation to not just projects that they recently published infrastructure investment plan are operating on at present, but commitments to states that only £20 million of the £3 billion future projects. Transport Scotland’s major estimated cost of the project is due to be spent projects team is engaging with a variety of between 2021-22 and 2025-26. Why is that figure commercial operators to understand their so low? capability and capacity to take on further major infrastructure projects over the next couple of

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How often are delays to infrastructure projects The Convener: Jo, you can definitely caused by protracted discussions with landowners contribute, but if you can do it succinctly, that on land purchases in and around the project area? would help me. Inveramsay bridge took for ever because of Jo Blewett (Scottish Government): To reflect protracted discussions with landowners about land what the cabinet secretary said, one thing that is purchases. Perhaps more use could be made of difficult for everyone to understand is that, behind compulsory purchase if delays are for that reason. the scenes, there are often hundreds of people Michael Matheson: We remain committed to working on such programmes. For a project on the the original timeframe for the A96 project. The scale of the A96 or the A9, when we start off, we funding to which you refer is the level of funding have to set direction, engage with stakeholders that is necessary to continue taking forward the and put all the pieces together, and we will have planning and design work and the statutory substantial-sized teams working on that stuff. That process. With major infrastructure projects such as is what builds the evidence that helps to support roads, the ramping up of investment comes when the compulsory purchase order case further on, so we move towards procurement. We are still some it is important that we have broad multidisciplinary time away from construction work on the A96— teams looking at all those aspects. hence the present level of funding. I will ask Jo As we move into the statutory process, we are, Blewett to say a wee bit more about that, given her in effect, defending that position and the team expertise in that area. naturally contracts to a smaller group of specialists However, what you also see in major who will work together to build the case to take infrastructure projects is a yo-yoing of funding. through the compulsory purchase process. There Sometimes funding increases, then it drops down, is a general contraction in that sense, but when we particularly as it goes through its statutory and move into the procurement and construction design processes, when the time is very much stage, the nature of the workforce changes and spent on consultation, the legal issues associated the teams expand again. It is a kind of moving with the planning and design work, and the feast, if you like. consultant’s role, as opposed to the actual The Convener: Maureen, do you want to come construction work, when the costs increase again. back on that or are you satisfied? Jo Blewett can say about more about that. Maureen Watt: That is fine. 11:15 The Convener: The next question comes from On the point about delays in major infrastructure John Finnie. projects, what is often forgotten or missed in John Finnie: I have a question about the Rest relation to such projects, particularly when it and Be Thankful. First, though, I put on record my comes to roads, is that a statutory process has to thanks and the thanks of my constituents for the be gone through and that we do not control all hard work of the workforce at that site. It is a elements of that. At times, that involves going to a demanding location and the weather is difficult. public local inquiry, and a project can be challenged in the court when the made orders are Cabinet secretary, can you provide an overview issued around the process, which can be taken to of the access to Argyll project, including how the the Court of Session. All those issues can add to Scottish Government intends to maintain the timeframe. continuity of travel on the route while a permanent solution is developed? Although ministers can set out the target timeframe for completing a project, there are Michael Matheson: I am happy to do that. I elements of the process involving legal issues that associate myself with the comments that John can have a significant impact on the final delivery Finnie made about the staff who have been timeframe. A good example of that is the working on the Rest and Be Thankful, particularly Aberdeen western peripheral route, which was in recent months, when they have experienced delayed by a number of years as a result of legal some significant challenges. I am extremely challenge around some of the order-making grateful for their work, although I am disappointed process. Such matters can have a significant that I cannot go to meet them in person to thank impact. That is frustrating, but it is important that, them. However, I hope to be able to do so when it when we look at using compulsory powers, we is safe. fulfil our legal obligations and that those who will The access to Argyll project is now at the point be affected by a project have their legal rights at which we have completed the consultation on protected and considered. the 11 different options that we set out. In the next I ask Jo Blewett to say a bit more about the few weeks before the recess, I hope to set out the seesawing around the funding of major projects. preferred corridor that has been identified through the consultation exercise. We will then draw down

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to the specific options in that corridor for delivering pros and cons of those options, and what we can a permanent long-term solution to the challenges do in advance in an effort to progress the project that we have on the A83 at the Rest and Be as quickly as possible. Thankful. As I have said, I do not want to be evasive, but I I have also asked officials at Transport Scotland assure Mr Finnie that my officials recognise that to consider how they can compress the timeframe we need to deal with the issue on an emergency for the completion of the project. I know that there basis, and that is the way in which the team and is anxiety locally about how long major projects of the process have been set up. such a nature can take, so I have asked my Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) officials to look at ways in which we can compress (SNP): Cabinet secretary, numerous members the timeframe as much as possible, while meeting have asked you about roads this morning, so I, our legal obligations to deal with the statutory too, will mention a couple of roads. You mentioned elements that might be involved if compulsory the M8 corridor—excellent. There is noise purchases are necessary to take ownership of reduction fencing along sections of the route but, land. when we come to the M74, we see that trees have That is where we are with the travel corridor been destroyed, and noise levels severely process. As I say, I hope to set out the preferred increased when the extra lane was constructed. corridor within the next couple of weeks. We see no noise reduction fencing, and tree twigs and small bushes have been replanted. The third element is that we are continuing our mitigation work on the hillside above the A83 at I have written to you on numerous occasions Glen Croe and on the old military road. We are about a constituent of mine who cannot sell their looking at whether there are further mitigations house because of the noise. I believe that they that we can put in place, in addition to the work have now written to you. When will the fencing go that is already being done on the hillside and the up, or when will anything be done on the M74? roadside to provide greater resilience on the old The Convener: Mr Lyle— military road and the A83 itself. That financial commitment will continue into the future. Richard Lyle: Everybody else has asked about their areas, so I am asking about my area. I want to protect what we have while setting out a clear direction for the future and looking at how The Convener: Mr Lyle, I will, of course, let the we can compress the timeframe as much as cabinet secretary answer your question. However, possible to deliver a new access route into Argyll I urge you to consider that this session is about that is much more reliable than the people of national policy and not constituency questions. Argyll have at present with the Rest and Be Richard Lyle: Other people have asked— Thankful, which in my view is simply not acceptable. The Convener: My Lyle, with the greatest John Finnie: I appreciate the challenges, and I respect, let us not fall out over it. Cabinet secretary, please answer the question briefly. Mr know that everyone has public safety at the Lyle should then move on to what he was going to forefront of their deliberations, but are you able to ask about. He and I will then remain able to work give us any sort of timeframe? Everyone wants a together. sustainable permanent solution but, in the best- case scenario, when might we get that? Richard Lyle: Other members have deviated Michael Matheson: Again, I am hesitant to give from their questions. a timeframe, not because I wish to be evasive but The Convener: Mr Lyle! because I know that, if I set a timeframe, folk will just say, “That’s when it’s gonnae be delivered by,” Michael Matheson: I think that the best thing and there is a whole range of things that I do not for me to do would be to write to Mr Lyle control, including the statutory process, which specifically on the matter. I know that that is an could have implications. important issue for his constituents. He has pursued it diligently over the past couple of years, However, I can say that I have made it clear to and I responded on it in the chamber fairly my officials in Transport Scotland that they should recently. I will write to Mr Lyle directly with further be looking at the project as an emergency project information specifically for his constituent. that requires to be proceeded with rapidly, as opposed to a normal major infrastructure project. The Convener: Thank you for steering a line That is the mindset that I have asked them to through the middle, cabinet secretary. have, and they are looking to make progress. For Richard Lyle: I thank the cabinet secretary for example, they are already considering some of the that reply. work that will be necessary on various options around the corridor that we choose, some of the

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As you know, cabinet secretary, I have been commercial terms and will have to be repaid to the resolute in defending Glasgow Prestwick airport Scottish Government. How the company repays and in suggesting that it is the jewel in the crown that will largely depend on the commercial income and should be used more. The Scottish that the airport receives and the airport’s success. Government had hoped to sell that airport to a If the airport is sold, the operating company will private sector bidder in 2020. I believe that have to repay that loan. negotiations between the airport management and Mike Rumbles: That is very helpful, and it takes an unnamed preferred bidder had been under me to my second question. You have just said way, but the sale fell through and the airport was that, if the airport is sold, the money will have to again put up for sale on 5 November. come back to the Scottish Government, because it On 23 February 2021, you wrote to the is taxpayers’ money in that loan. Just like any committee and advised that the Scottish other commercial enterprise, if you lend money, Government had accepted a recommendation that you expect it to be repaid. was made by TS Prestwick HoldCo Ltd to appoint It is interesting that there is not a plan to repay a preferred bidder. Can you provide an update on the money; rather, there is just a commitment to the potential sale of Glasgow Prestwick airport? I repay it to the Scottish Government. Can we think that it is an underused airport, and it is now safely assume that the public money that has well connected by new roads that have been been expended is safe in your hands, if I can put it constructed through the area. that way—I am sure that you would like to confirm Michael Matheson: As you said, I wrote to the that—and that, if the airport is sold, the money will committee to advise that the management team at at that point come back to the Scottish Prestwick airport had identified a preferred bidder. Government as part of the commercial deal? I recommended that bidder to the Scottish ministers, and we accepted the recommendation. The sales negotiation diligence process is on- 11:30 going. I am unable to say much more than that, Michael Matheson: What I said was that, if the because I have to respect the integrity and airport is not sold, the debt of that loan will remain confidentiality of the sales process, but my with the operating company at Prestwick airport understanding is that good progress continues to and it would have to be repaid to the Scottish be made. Government. You will recognise that the company has the loans on the basis of the commercial You have correctly pointed out the importance challenges that it has faced. Had the Scottish of that aviation facility to not just the local Government not made that funding available, the economy but the regional economy and the likelihood is that the airport would have closed and Scottish economy as a whole, given the number of the jobs that are associated with it, directly and aerospace jobs that are associated with the indirectly, would have been lost. Some jobs would airport. I will endeavour to keep the committee have been lost directly and many indirect jobs informed as progress is made over the next couple would have been put at significant risk. of months. The funding that has been made available by Richard Lyle: As you said, cabinet secretary, it the Scottish Government relates to sustaining the is an important airport to many people in that area. facility overall, given its importance to the local I thank you and wish you well. economy and to the wider aerospace industry that it supports. Obviously, the negotiations that are Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD): I taking place just now between the management want to follow on from Richard Lyle’s question. team and the preferred bidder will explore all those The issue is, of course, a national one. It is issues, and we will have to wait to see what the certainly not a regional issue for the north-east of outcome of the negotiations is. I am not going to Scotland. pre-empt any sales process or any negotiations I have two questions for the cabinet secretary. that are taking place at present. First, regardless of what happens with selling the Mike Rumbles: I understand that entirely. My airport, what is the current plan for the return of question was not based on the fact that the loans the £43.4 million in loans that the Scottish were given. I understand, accept and agree with Government has given—that is taxpayers’ what you have said about the loans being given money—to the management company? What is for the sustainability of the airport. However, when the plan for the repayment of that money to the the Scottish Government made the loan, there Scottish Government? was an expectation, as you confirmed in answer to Michael Matheson: If the airport is not sold, the my first question, that it would be repaid. You said loan will remain on the books of the operating that it should be repaid if the airport is sold. I am company at Prestwick airport. The loan is on not asking—

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Michael Matheson: That is not what I said. The Convener: Cabinet secretary, as I enjoy figures, I thought that I would ask you a few Mike Rumbles: Have I misunderstood? questions about this subject myself. Can you Michael Matheson: Yes, you have. I said that, confirm that, in the period from April 2020 to if Prestwick airport is not sold, the loan will remain March 2021, Prestwick airport required no with the operating company, and it would have to subsidies from the Scottish Government? be repaid at some point because it was provided Michael Matheson: I do not have the figures in on commercial terms to the operating company for front of me, but I would be more than happy to the reasons that I have outlined. If the airport is come back to the committee with the details of sold, issues around the loan will be part of the that. negotiation process and any sales process that the operating company—[Inaudible.] The Convener: You confirmed to me that no money was allocated to Prestwick airport in the Mike Rumbles: Thank you for clearing that up. I budget negotiations. That was probably because, was very happy with what I thought your first reply as at 31 March 2020, Prestwick airport was sitting was, but I am not so happy with the reply that you on £14.3 million of cash in the bank, according to have just given because, in any commercial its figures. On the basis of that situation at the end operation in which assets are being transferred of the financial year, in March 2020, why did you from one company to another company, it would feel that it was necessary to give the airport a loan normally take on those liabilities, just as the of £3.5 million just prior to that time, when it had Scottish Government took on the liabilities of so much cash at the end of the year? Prestwick airport when it bought it for £1. Michael Matheson: Again, I do not have the My question is a very simple one. I am not specific figures in front of me, but I would be more asking you about the negotiations with the than happy to check and come back to the particular bidder; I am asking in general terms committee with that detail. However, you are right: whether, because the Government has issued that as I confirmed during our budget discussion, there £43.4 million loan to that company, it is your is no provision for providing financial support to expectation that that money will be returned to the Prestwick airport for this coming financial year, on Scottish Government. We have to be vigilant and the basis that the management team has been make sure that we are proper guardians of able to commercialise different aspects of the taxpayers’ money. It is not the Scottish business. I do not have the details before me on Government’s money; it is taxpayers’ money. your specific figure of around £3 million, but I Surely if the liability and ownership are being would be more than happy to get that checked and transferred from one company to another, we to come back to you. would expect that the Scottish Government would get that money repaid to it. I do not mean at once, The Convener: It makes me slightly concerned but there would be a commitment to repay the that, at the end of the financial year, on 31 March money to the taxpayer. 2020, we had bumped up the airport’s figures to £14.3 million by giving it a loan, which it clearly did Michael Matheson: I understand the point that not need. I question that. It would be helpful if you you are making, but you are asking me to give an cover that when you write back to me. insight into the negotiation process with the existing preferred bidder, and I am not prepared to Part of that £14 million came from the radar do that. However, I can tell you that the mitigation and sales of property coming to about management team at Prestwick airport is pursuing £7.4 million, which represents non-recurring the best possible deal for those who work directly income. Some of it came from the heavy use of at the airport, businesses that are dependent on the airport by military aircraft from the US, Canada the airport, and taxpayers. We will need to wait and Kuwait. Can you confirm that, if we take out and see what the outcome of the negotiation the sales and the mitigation as well as the military process is, but we should allow that to be taken aircraft, the airport will not draw down on the forward. When we get to the point at which any money that it got at the end of March 2020? It sale is finalised, I will be able to set out exactly does not appear that the airport is making money, what the financial implications are for Scottish which you have claimed it is; it appears that it is taxpayers, what sale has gone through, and what using its reserves to fund its continued operation. it means for staff and the businesses that are Michael Matheson: It is using some of its linked to the airport. reserves to continue operations at Prestwick, Mike Rumbles: Thank you, cabinet secretary. I some of which it has achieved through non- have exhausted my line of questioning to the recurring sales. Some elements involve radar cabinet secretary, and I am sure that he is very mitigation, which you mentioned. Alongside that, happy about how he has dealt with it. the airport has increased the level of funding that it has secured through the provision of refuelling in

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recent years. That has been a significant factor in Peter Chapman (North East Scotland) (Con): improving the airport’s balance sheet overall. My questions are about the Queensferry crossing and the issue of the closure of the bridge due to It would be wrong to say that the airport has not ice on its cables. BEAR Scotland tested an improved its financial position—I would not wish to emergency diversion on to the old bridge in give the impression that it has not improved its December last year and again in January of this financial position—but it now has a preferred year. What did you learn from that process? How bidder with a view to purchasing the airport quickly can a diversion be put in place when potentially, and we will now wait and see what the necessary, and is that now the preferred option outcome of the negotiation process is. when ice on the cables is an issue? The Convener: I am not sure that that answers Michael Matheson: The operational the question. management of incidents on the bridge continues My last question follows on from Mike to be the main way in which issues will be dealt Rumbles’s question about the £43.4 million that with. That includes issues relating to ice build-up was loaned to the airport. I want to be entirely on the towers of the cables. clear. I think that it is really important that the The learning from the diversion on to the Forth airport succeeds, but you have excluded any road bridge identified a number of operational interest that is due on those payments. If you look issues that need to be in place to minimise the at the accounts, the accruals and the deferred timeframe for a diversion on to the Forth road income, you will see that that has risen. That bridge. That includes pre-deployment of traffic suggests to me that there might be £5.1 million or management equipment and ensuring that there is £5.2 million-worth of interest due on the loans. I early communication of the plan that is being put want confirmation that the loaned money and in place. specifically the interest on it will come back to the taxpayer. The timeframe for introducing the diversion is approximately five hours from making the decision Michael Matheson: I am always interested in through to putting in place the diversion. When it is those who qualify their challenge on the loans that decided to divert on to the Forth road bridge, the have been given to Prestwick airport by saying Kincardine bridge will be used in the short-term as that they support and recognise the airport’s the principal diversion route until the diversion on importance to the regional economy and the to the Forth road bridge is completed. As I said, national economy. Had those loans not been that will take around five hours. provided, the facility would be closed; it would not be there, and there would have been a significant The learning from BEAR Scotland was that the financial and employment impact on the jobs that test went well. However, one factor that could are directly associated with it and the businesses have an impact on the switching over to the Forth that depend on it. road bridge is adverse weather. Adverse weather might impact on them being able put in place If I recall correctly, you raised that point with me traffic management arrangements. That is previously, Frances Pacitti agreed to come back to because of—as you can imagine—the practicality the committee on it, and you were provided with of doing that. information on whether the interest levels were included in the figure. That information was BEAR is still working through some of the provided to the committee. Is that incorrect? Was details. However, in practice, it takes around five that not provided? If not, I will ensure that it is. hours for the diversion to be operational. The Convener: I would be delighted if you Peter Chapman: I take it from that answer that would provide it. I look at the latest accounts, and that is the preferred option if the weather is it has been some time since Ms Pacitti gave suitable. We know that the old Forth bridge would evidence to the committee. I am trying to consider have to close if there were high winds. the accruals, the deferred income and the Is there a technical solution to the ice issue? We increase to work out exactly how much has been believe that there are discussions going on about put in. finding another way to alleviate the problem of ice Please do not complicate the fact that money is on the cables. What are the parameters of that put forward to support businesses. It is important project? What are the expected timescales and that money is put forward to support them, but I costs? Is there a practical way forward? Can want to understand that that has been done something be done? wisely. That is what I am checking. As you do not have the figures, we will have to 11:45 wait for the answers, which will, no doubt, come Michael Matheson: That is a fair question. The before the purdah period. problem affects other cable stay bridges across

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the world. The research that has been carried out is now complete. I assure Mr Chapman that the suggests that operational changes, such as having bridge is in good shape if he is crossing it. diversion routes or using only one carriageway, The Convener: That brings us to the end of this should be the principal solution. Across the world, part of the meeting. I thank the cabinet secretary the sector principally uses such operational and his officials for attending and giving evidence. arrangements. In our case, that would mean switching to the Forth road bridge. I now suspend the meeting to allow the next panel of witnesses to come on board. The good thing is that the Queensferry crossing is far more resilient than the Forth road bridge. There is a night and day difference between the 11:50 number of times that the Queensferry crossing has Meeting suspended. still been operational or has been kept open for high-sided vehicles and the number of times that that happened to the Forth road bridge. It has been transformational. We have far greater resilience. There have been a couple of occasions on which ice accretion has resulted in the bridge having to be closed. The research is looking at a number of possibilities, such as using hydrophobic coating on the cables, or deploying a different type of de-icing system. Laboratory research will be carried out later this year to test those options. If the research indicates that they could be helpful, there is a possibility of piloting a few of those options next winter to find out if they offer a long- term solution. There is research, lab testing and then piloting. The research has been completed and options have been identified. Lab testing will follow, and then perhaps some piloting of options next winter before we consider wider deployment on the bridge structure. I hope that that reassures you that we are taking the matter seriously. We are trying to identify a long-term solution to the occasional issue of ice gathering on the towers and cables. Peter Chapman: When traffic is diverted, there is a huge increase in the volume of traffic crossing the old bridge. Are we content that the old bridge is robust enough to deal with that? At the moment, the traffic on that bridge is very light. If everything was diverted on a busy Friday morning, the bridge would be full of traffic. Is there any concern about significant wear and tear to the old bridge? Michael Matheson: That is a fair point. After one closure last year, Transport Scotland and I faced criticism for not opening up the Forth road bridge. That was because the bridge was undergoing major refurbishment to ensure that it was safe and fit for use. Most of that work has been completed. Some of it was suspended during the winter so that traffic could move on to the bridge if that became necessary. The Forth road bridge is now up to the expected standard and is safe for use by the expected volume of traffic. It is in better shape now as a result of refurbishment work to replace some decking sections. That work

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11:55 Maureen Watt: As a result of Brexit, the seed On resuming— potato industry was thrown completely under the bus. I notice that potato tubers are mentioned on Subordinate Legislation the list of plants and other things. Is there any way in which the draft regulations can help the lucrative and important Scottish seed potato industry to Plant Health (EU Exit) (Scotland) export products not only to the EU but to the rest (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [Draft] of the world? The Convener: Item 2 is consideration of Ben Macpherson: The very concerning subordinate legislation. The committee will take situation for the seed potato industry has been a evidence on one affirmative instrument: the draft matter of attention for me—and particularly for the Plant Health (EU Exit) (Scotland) (Amendment) Cabinet Secretary for Rural Economy and Regulations 2021. The motion that seeks approval Tourism, Fergus Ewing—since the Brexit deal was of the affirmative instrument will be considered at agreed in late December. There has been item 3. extensive dialogue, on behalf of seed potato farmers, with the industry, the UK Government I welcome, from the Scottish Government, Ben and the European Commission in order to help Macpherson, the Minister for Rural Affairs and the those farmers with their situation and to promote Natural Environment; Debbie Kessel, branch head their interests. of plant health policy; and Rachel Coutts, a lawyer. The draft regulations relate to the I ask the minister to make a brief opening implementation process following the deal that statement on the draft regulations. was agreed with the European Union. As far as I The Minister for Rural Affairs and the Natural am aware, there are no definitive means by which Environment (Ben Macpherson): Good morning, the legislation would support the situation for seed convener. I thank you and the committee for potato farmers, but it is the intention of the making time today to consider the draft Scottish Government, working with others, to bring about a statutory instrument. better scenario for them. That remains an issue of priority. I would be grateful if Debbie Kessel could The draft regulations amend Scottish legislation come in at this point to elaborate further on the in the field of plant health, particularly provisions issues. relating to charges for inspections of certain plant, plant product, timber and timber product consignments. It is now necessary for fees to be 12:00 charged for imported consignments from The Convener: I am happy to let her come in. If European Union member states, Liechtenstein the members have read the papers that they all and Switzerland, according to the level of plant have, they will see that “tubers of potatoes” are biosecurity risk that is posed to Scotland. The specifically excluded under the amended schedule charges will now align with charges from non- 2 on page 6 of the regulations. However, I am European third countries. For exports, the draft happy if you would like to give further confirmation regulations introduce provision to remove the fee of that. Having made that comment, I should that is paid for phytosanitary certificates on remind members that I have an interest in a consignments of timber and timber products that farming partnership in Moray, which I did not leave Scotland for Northern Ireland. That will serve declare because there was nothing on the agenda to support the sector. to do with agricultural products, as far as I could In addition, offences are being created in see. relation to the type of plant passport health Maureen Watt: Potatoes are mentioned on certificate that must be held for consignments that page 9, convener. enter Scotland from Northern Ireland. The provisions will support compliance with plant The Convener: Having been excluded on page health rules and will, therefore, protect Scotland’s 6—okay. plant biosecurity. Northern Ireland traders are Debbie Kessel (Scottish Government): As the familiar with the plant passport system. minister mentioned, the regulations are just The draft regulations are therefore necessary regarding fees. Our concern around seed potatoes and appropriate. My officials and I are happy to is their export to the EU and Northern Ireland. take any questions from the committee. Unfortunately, the instrument does not allow us to help that situation at all. The Convener: Thank you, minister. The first question is from the deputy convener, Maureen The Convener: Okay—it is on fees. Watt. Emma Harper: My concern in relation to the fees and inspections is around where we would

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put the inspectors. Would they be in Cairnryan as The Convener: There do not appear to be any part of a port harbour health inspection authority? more questions, so we will move to item 3, which Are we concerned about any risks to the is formal consideration of the motion. I invite the phytosanitary products that are coming into minister to move motion S5M-24145. Scotland? For the fees in relation to this SSI, Motion moved, would we need to make sure that we had appropriate numbers of inspectors in place at That the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee specific port authorities, including the likes of recommends that the Plant Health (EU Exit) (Scotland) Cairnryan? (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [draft] be approved.—[Ben Macpherson] Ben Macpherson: For clarity, the inspections Motion agreed to. for which this legislation brings in fees are already being undertaken. A system is already in place. It The Convener: That concludes our is all about biosecurity—that is the absolute focus consideration of the SSI. I thank the minister and of the inspections. The provision that we are his officials for their time. bringing in now is necessary to make sure that we The next meeting of the committee will be on are feeing as appropriate to cover the cost of Wednesday 17 March, when the Minister for inspections. As a result of the Brexit process, Energy, Connectivity and the Islands will give us a there has obviously been an impact on digital connectivity update. There will be three considerations concerning the border more SSIs, three SIs—possibly more—and a discussion generally in terms of imports and exports, but the of our legacy paper and annual report. inspections are already in place and the legislation before us is simply about making sure that there is That concludes our business for today. Thank appropriate feeing to cover costs. you all for your attendance. The Convener: Thank you. Is that all right, Meeting closed at 12:05. Emma? Did you get your answer?

Emma Harper: That is fine.

This is the final edition of the Official Report of this meeting. It is part of the Scottish Parliament Official Report archive and has been sent for legal deposit.

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