An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago

T ony Del Valle

Fourth of March, 1998. All right, also music; I was interested in while I was going to Columbia and and what I want to do is start off music. And the Music Center, at studying writing. So it was really a with by asking about how you the time, was on Sheffield, and that rich experience all the way around. came to Columbia... All right, so was an interesting building too. tell me about the circumstances And, so that was my minor, and I Now did you, what other courses that brought you here. studied—Bill Russo was, at the did you take? I came here out of a Chicago public time, the chairman of the Music OK, I took, let’s see, I took all the high school, a good one, Lane Tech. Department. And so I studied art. usual courses. I took history courses And about—the journey began What I really was pursuing at the and I took a psychology course. with, I think, from Puerto Rico— time was to be a graphic artist but And I met extraordinary teachers two years into high school and I Columbia had not gotten to the here. Steve was one of the ones, was accepted at the high school— point where it would’ve called the who is now a counselor here, an and then from there... One of the program, it didn’t have a graphic Academic Advisor. And I met Louis biggest influences was an art art program, graphic design Silverstein; outstanding teachers. I teacher who, I was interested in art, program. So I studied at, then I still keep their books and I still use and so he suggested that I consider discovered that one of my strengths them to teach. And so, let’s see, Columbia of some of the places that I, my old strengths if you can what other courses? I remember the where I can continue to study art: say that about me at the time—I psychology, history courses—those Columbia, the Art Institute, and mean I was just beginning are the courses that stand out. Of other schools. And so I made my college—and that was writing. I course, and then of course there’s decision to go to Columbia. And at had been writing poetry and song the, in the, what was then the the time Columbia was fairly small, lyrics and short stories and some- Writing/English Department: Bill it was on Lake Shore Drive, it had what, had done quite well in Galiardi, Paul Pekin were tremen- one elevator, and a set of rickety middle school, junior high. And dous influences. They do what wooden stairs, and I think it was when I came to Columbia I began teachers that make a difference in like seven floors. And I remember to experience a lot of success in that peoples’ lives do. They recognize standing, when I first showed up area. So it was kind of a throwback something in a student and they for registration, standing outside of to what my strength had always encourage that; they, to use a a line which extended out to the been. And so I decided to pursue cliche, they light a fire under them street and across an alley, probably that. down the alley, and down the side- walk. That was one of my first Were you taking courses in writ- memories of coming to register at ing or... Columbia College. And I thought I Just the regular courses. I discov- had done well by coming early but ered that I was good at it and the a lot of people had beat me to it. teachers recognized that. And I And there we all were and it was in began to go into that area, less in the Fall so it was also cold, I the art. I’ve never given up art or remember... music, of course, I mean. Even a while, when I wasn’t, when I was What year was this? pursuing a BA, when I was pursu- ...but right by the lake, there by ing a degree here in writing, I was Lake Shore Drive. This was in ‘78. painting murals in the community, Let me see, was it in ‘78? ‘74... in the Puerto Rican community, yeah... ‘78. and I was teaching kids music and forming bands that performed in So what did you sign up for? the neighborhoods. And so I taught What did I sign up for? I signed the music and I was also a part of up for a bunch of art classes and that, that whole music scene. So I was doing all that at the same time

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and get the students going in that then disappeared after their class sense—you know, the students—it direction. And those were teachers and never really got together and was different. Now the student is who did that and they influenced talked or anything like that or younger, a lot of them are affluent my thinking in my own book. cooperate that much. I got to do a suburban students and their little bit of that in my music outlook on what’s important is What was it that they recognized classes but mostly that’s, that’s the different. During the summer I in you besides that you could way it has been. Lately, we have a teach Fiction classes. So I teach a write? lot of students who are saying, you Fiction class or a class at night and In Steve’s case, for example, he, it know, let’s make certain organiza- I get the student who comes here was really his teaching provided tions in the schools, certain groups, from work; more focused, more sort of an early model for me about depending on their interests. There experienced. Their life experiences how to teach: how to teach is a Latino group, there’s an are easier for me for me to identify students, how to reach them, how African-American group, maybe them because sometimes I’m their to transcend the usual two, and so on. So that has changed age or closer. Which doesn’t mean student/teacher barriers and really and I think that that’s good, that’s that I don’t identify with my teach. He was also one of the very a good thing. When I went to younger students, but that’s a open, openly gay teachers that I school later on at Northwestern, I whole other topic about how had which was kind of interesting was an outsider who came in, sort enriching that is to teach and to me because, well it was, what? of like one of these students, and learn so much from the students all Early, the ‘70s, and I came from a then left the campus and never the time. But that’s what the main Latino community and high school, really got to talk to my fellow difference is. Also there were a lot it was just not, people were not students. And so much learning more minority students, I get the openly gay. So it was kind of an happens outside the classroom feeling in classes. And they were interesting experience—walk into a when you can get together with the, not the usual student. They all classroom and see that that was other students. So that, and besides, had either a, you know, dropped part of it. So in many ways, you you know, the social aspect of it, out of school for a while and come know, because he was a good and making you feel that you’re not back, they had been in Vietnam, or teacher, as I said, and many of the an outsider and you don’t feel alien- they had... it was not the typical, things that influenced his ideas, for ation. you know, out of their senior year example, again, I remember teach- and into college type student that ers and their books. The Death of Who were the other students you we have now. We have more of Ivan Ilych changed my life, for can tell or can remember? You those now in the daytime and then example. The Tolstoy story, The said they were from all over the at nighttime, as I was saying, it’s Crow Turk Sonata, are books that city, but suburbanites too? slightly different. give you a new, existential outlook, At that time I get the, I think it perspective on things. That’s one of was mostly students from the city. So you studied for how long here? the things I remember about his You started in ‘78. class On Death and Dying. All that Mostly from the city. I, let’s see. I started here in ‘78, I comes back to me: his discussions And the students were of a differ- started in ‘78, no, no, I graduated of those books; the books them- ent kind of a, they were older in ‘74 from high school then I went selves, how he comes up with the students, some of them were on the on ‘til ‘78. classes. GI Bill, some of them had, you know, come out of Vietnam not Until ‘78, OK. Do you remember students? What that long ago and they were in the Then I was asked to come back and were the students like, what was classrooms dealing with that. I teach. And I was, I took it on student life like? thought that was one of the memo- gladly, actually, because I had been What student life? (Laughs) This is rable things that I remember about tutoring anyways, so I went, “Ah!” a commuter school. We, it’s still, taking classes, especially writing I had a little bit of experience in it. now we have dorms but, you know. classes. That brought a certain People would come from wherever perspective to the whole class, the What were you tutoring? they came from in the city, and older student who had had these Writing, I was tutoring a student being an open admissions college experiences. And, so in that on writing. And so when I was they came from everywhere, and asked to become a, you know, to work part-time, I took it. And then

132 T ony Del Valle An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago

decided, I was one of the first few Wow, OK. And so when you went some great teachers again. people to go and pursue an MA at to work on an MA, where was the time; before the College that? This is a Masters in Teaching? insisted that, on that. A lot of Northwestern. Yes. people, yeah, did not have an MA at the time, the whole school, actu- Northwestern. And tell me about And were you doing anything ally. So that, you know, that’s that. connected with writing there? another change that has happened When I went to, on my own I There? Besides the regular writing through the years. decided, “I’m gonna go and get an that you do for the classes, I just MA, I’m going to continue my did that. So you started teaching as soon studies.” So I went to a community And did you have in mind that you as you finished and you were agency, maybe I shouldn’t mention would then get certified and teaching... it by name, and I said, ‘Look, I I was teaching in the want to go and study. I want to get teach... Writing/English Department. an MA and can you help me find a Not necessarily, I did want to have school?” So they named a series of an MA and I figured that teaching Full-time, part-time? schools and then there’s would be, since I had a degree in As an adjunct. Northwestern, “But don’t even writing already, that teaching bother, you won’t make it. Don’t would be good. So I was all inter- Adjunct, OK. even try.” I said, “I’m looking for ested and wanted to pursue it. And Meaning that, you know, you do the best school possible.” And so I then I went into teaching high full-time work for part-time pay. tried and I got in. And I’m so glad school and decided not to do that I didn’t listen to them because they any more after three years, three So you were teaching as an kind of downplayed, maybe because and a half years, and decided to adjunct and is that what you did, I’m Latino or they felt, “You’re not teach at a college level. or did you have other jobs at the ready,” or for whatever reasons, or time? And what year was this? they’ve seen a lot of students, what- I think that in a way I was a typical This was in ‘70...’81, around 1981. ever the reasons are. But that was Columbia student at the time in Teaching high school is one of the kind of an interesting moment I that I was involved in a lot of toughest jobs that one could ever remember, where I said, “I’m not things. You know, the students are do. Especially in the inner city in gonna listen to these people and still doing that. They’re still hold- Chicago, this... I’m gonna just go for what it is ing down full-time jobs, they’re that I needed to learn.” So that was pursuing their majors, they’re Where were you teaching? an interesting story. So I went to pursuing many other things, areas Holy Trinity, it’s on Division and the campus; I was an outsider, not a of interest, which makes them very Ashland. But now that I’ve done single person of color in sight in interesting, actually, as people. I research I see that my experience the school. And it was a huge was teaching here at Columbia, I was typical of any school, any campus, a very different environ- was teaching at a Chicago high public school too. It was a situation ment from Columbia College school, and I was studying, getting where you had students who came which is very small, little college a Masters in Teaching at the same from homes that were, this compared to Northwestern. So that time, and I was married and had a provided a contrast: I taught in was really another world: just the family. Evanston, Evanston Township High town itself. Evanston is a college School, where, you know, it was a When did you get married, while town, a beautiful little town up different kind of student, not many you were still a student at there by the lake. So everything minority students, and all students Columbia? was brand new and interesting and have their things that they deal Yes. I think I was in my second strange and some of it was daunt- with in their personal lives and you year. ing, some of it was a challenge for get to know that. So no matter me. And besides the fact that I had whether the suburbs of Evanston, So you were, for a while, you to commute and stuff after all my Chicago, whatever, but the atmos- were a student and supporting a other responsibilities. But I got phere, the attitude, everything, was family? through the programs and met so different from when I came and Yes. taught in the inner city; it was a

133 An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago T ony Del Valle

total contrast. There you’d ask a week. And it involved work and so And did, now you use the Story student, in Evanston, “OK, we’re on, but my environment was differ- Workshop method. Did you use gonna do a class project to end the ent from high school. it... semester.” And the students would The Story Workshop method has perform one of Shakespeare’s come- So what were the classes, what received high praise, has demon- dies or they would do a ballet were the writing classes? strated that it can teach students performance or they would do an Your basic writing classes where how to write fiction. And that is electronic show for the class, the you, well, things have changed. At why year after year they pull down senior class. That is a total contrast that time students came in and, first prize, first place. Not only to what happened in the inner city you know, a different, some of them first; first, second and third place. schools where these students could were older students, different age It’s a tremendous methodology and barely do, they could barely master groups, different backgrounds. And of course it has also received a lot of some of the things that were being so they were there, even the fresh- criticism. And I’m, I have a taught in the school. This was a man English classes, they were perspective that I think no one else school where, when you came back difficult to categorize it as such has on Story Workshop because I from Christmas break and you saw because there were people there went, especially now—I’ve five empty chairs, you were sort of who were getting ready to graduate completed my Ph.D. actually, my asking around. It was because they that spent three years in college. Ph.D. studies—and I’ve had a were in prison, shot—in the hospi- And so, but that’s what it was and I chance to study a lot of methodolo- tal or dead, and this was typical. taught advanced classes as well, gies and a lot of pedagogy. And I And it still is going on, as I found Fiction classes. And so then later, have a chance to study cognitivists, out in my research. So it was a, the when the English Department and see that, why it works. Now I hours were long and since I, I’m divided and split up and became know why Story Workshop works the kind of person who did not like Fiction and the English so well and why it is such a good to cut corners and teach and really Department, I stayed in both and I method, you know, just by, you get involved and really try to make still teach in both. know, what some of the criticisms a difference, then that meant that I are. It’s really based, solidly based had to do a lot of work on my own Now, is there anybody else that on what happens cognitively when on weekends. I would go there at does that? you’re learning. It works on so seven in the morning and get out No. many levels that I wish I could sit and write an article about it, actu- at nine thirty at night sometimes; So you’re an interesting person, ally, and explain Story Workshop sometimes even later. I remember a bridge between the two. from that perspective. getting, after twelve, midnight, John Duff, the President of the when it was time to work on one of College, asked me, “Well, how did So you didn’t find yourself drawn, these papers, so it was pretty tough you manage to do that?” He could- and the pay was low and so on. or did you find yourself drawn n’t figure out how because he into the disputes about... So you decided to move on to... understands, you know, the rivalries No. This is something I’ve tried to Teaching college. between departments sometimes tell John, who invented Story and all that stuff, yeah. Workshop, that he was way ahead ...teaching college. So what did of his time. What happened was How did you manage it? you, how did you go about that? when the Soviet Union, you know, By staying above the drain, by I was simply offered a full-time job when it fell apart, then, when these focusing on what I think is the and I decided, made a decision at intellectuals and these scholars in singular most important thing, and that time, that I would teach in the Soviet Union started reaching that is to teach students. That’s it, college. the West with their books and their that’s what I’m here to do. And the ideas and one of them was rest, the meetings, the committees, And that was here? [Vagaski]. And the, we didn’t hear this and that, well, that comes with Um-hmm. about it till then. And now, “Oh, the territory, but I have never lost that’s wonderful.” It’s a great expla- And what were you teaching? my focus. I know what it is; I know nation of culture and language and I taught in the Writing/English what I need to do. And that’s what learning. Story Workshop was Department and I taught three I enjoy the most. doing that a long time ago so the classes, I believe, twelve hours a

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man was really, really ahead of his that I noticed was that they always understood that. I’m one of time with this methodology. So it’s wanted, that they take a lot of those students; I understood that interesting. I’ve tried to tell him responsibilities for their own learn- when I came here. And people like, this but... maybe I’ll write an arti- ing for growth. And that they want in this department, people in the cle about it. to make a difference in their lives, Fiction Department, people in that they want to make a difference departments all over the school The Theoretical Basis for Story in their community and their who were students here, knew it Workshop. world. You know, as idealistic then and know it now. So at least Right. He doesn’t want to hear it college students, you might say for us, we understood what the anyway. Yeah, so that’s what I did, that that’s what it is, the Columbia mission was. We identified with it I sort of... and kept my focus, and College student has a connection, a and that was one of the good things I’m still doing that. real sense of what it is that they about the school. And I think the want to do and how. They come school is growing at a tremendous Let me ask you then about the here knowing day-by-day reality of rate. It’s breaking its own, it’s mission of the College. How what they have to do: read the breaking records all the time, would you describe the mission of books, do the assignments, do the enrollment records. And it’s the College in relation to projects. But they have another because, that, our understanding of American society? perspective of the place that they what the mission of the College is. I was surprised recently. We were want to occupy in the world. They doing a self-study of the College, want to author the culture of the Let me go back to your, when you and I surveyed my classes and I times and they know it. That was were a student. Would you have asked them, I had only a discrete surprising to me. I thought that been able to state what the portion of the entire self-study, of they would be so inward looking, mission of the College was when course, a very strong section. And I which might be typical of that age, you started here? asked a student, one of the things but they weren’t. And that’s a Would I have been able to state it? that I was, that I wanted to find beautiful thing, that everything out, I took the responsibility for To think about it, to know about they do is toward that goal, it’s not finding out this part, that is, it, and think about those kind of selfish or self-centered at all. Even “What are the responsibilities held issues? though they’re in the process of by you regarding your success at advancing their careers and making I probably couldn’t have stated it as this school?” And I was shocked money, they’re still thinking of eloquently as Alexandroff but I when the students wrote stuff that making a difference for the probably could have said, “Look, it matches perfectly with the mission community and for the world. wasn’t to make a difference in my of the College. So maybe it’s self- That’s one of the major patterns life.” I grew up in a very poor selection, I don’t know, maybe from that I noticed. And that, then you community with the usual things, a researcher’s perspective they knew can break that down into, that they violence, drugs, teen pregnancy, that that’s what they wanted and understand that they want to get that neighborhood, broken families, therefore they came here, or it’s the along with people of, you know, all the horrible stuff. But I knew wonderful coincidence that these different cultures, different races; that I wanted to change my life, young people, what they want to they want to learn about that, and that I could do that through do, is what the mission of the so on. You can get that specific getting a degree. That I could do College is, says what the College is about what they stated, but in that through a place like Columbia about. And Alexandroff stated it general, that they never lose sight College where I could put what my and it’s uncanny how they flesh out of that higher goal. And that fits talents were and then I could make the mission in their comments. beautifully, perfectly, with the a difference later in the community. mission of the College. And then, later, you realize, much For example. later, that you’re actually changing OK, a lot of them, well, the Has it changed it all? people’s lives probably. So in a mission of the College is on... No, I took this survey last semester. sense I kind of knew that. I felt Columbia will accept the students Are you saying... I think that the that connection between what it is who will communicate... One of students who come here have I wanted to do and what was the patterns, and there are many happening all around me here. patterns, but one of the patterns

135 An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago T ony Del Valle

When did you first lay eyes on Well, tell me about a couple said, “Well, all I really want to Mike Alexandroff? other aspects of the College. The do is take courses in...” Going up a number of rickety stairs College, one thing you character- Oh, I have students like that now. (laughs). ize is the College in general is, the mixture of the liberal arts You do now? Well, in 600, 540? and arts and communications, Oh yeah. Probably yes. His demeanor is such what about that? that you would never know that he There’s a lot of controversy around And were there fellow students is the President of the College and that and maybe it’s just a storm. when you were a student yourself that he is a profound man. Well, it’s because out in the or your early years teaching? community Columbia used to be My experience was in the liberal When did you find out who this known as a trade school. You went education side of the school. So I guy was that you’d seen in the to Columbia the same way you don’t know that, you know, that’s stairs? used to go to learn a trade, you all that they thought about. But I can’t really pinpoint it but I know. You went to learn about tele- I’m going by the perception in the think, but I think it was then. And vision and the rest was not here at community. People that I know, what happens is, when you know that point. And so that has come to “Columbia College, oh yeah. That’s who he is, and especially when you a head recently. And people are the school where you learn radio,” read what he’s, when you under- beginning to, beginning to discuss or, “That’s the school where you stand his vision, you can’t see him the whole notion that Columbia is learn television.” You know, that’s the same way again. Then you get more than a trade school, you it in the community. And that’s on an elevator and you know, well, know, that whole notion. And that because a lot of the students who you know that is Mike Alexandroff. a liberal education should couple a came here, that, as they do now, And you respect him because of trade. In fact, that’s how my that is their, what they’re thinking who he is, not his position. Well, students thought. I told my film about. you respect him for, of course the students, I told my television usual, he is the President of the Columbia is an open admissions students, that their best chance of College, but when you have an institution. What did that mean becoming, of envisioning their understanding of the profound twenty years ago, twenty-five goal, is to be well rounded. I make difference that he’s probably made, years ago, does that mean the a lot of jokes, we have a lot of fun, I mean this school is an example of same thing now? it’s in the context of a conversation what he created. Then you have an That meant that students who had that we do, that I do with them. even greater respect for him and come here who don’t know their And I tell them that, provide awe. way. There weren’t any exams or examples of how someday they may anything like that to evaluate When did you first hear him talk? reach, that they’re not a lot of illit- students or to know what they At the graduation. erate people in college, directors, want. I saw that too as a teacher and that they learn, somewhat, how and as a student. You had a student At the graduation? to lighten up, how to express them- who went to a school in the Yeah, I looked forward to his selves, how to communicate, and suburbs, River Forest or whatever; rehashed graduation speech. also how to get along with people one of those suburbs named after who are not like them. I try to their trees, trees and rivers and So you knew what to expect emphasize that to them. And that’s meadows and whatever. before hand? something that’s learned, not neces- He always, somehow, managed to sarily, while you’re totally focused Parks. hit that high-note with a statement on how to do a trade. Parks (laughs). Anyway, who came that was just right because he says here prepared in that way. They it in every, he said it every speech; Now you’re a, what you were had teachers of a different, you about authoring the culture of your saying about your experience was know, the schools actually were a times. That always has, always got far from being a trade school, it completely different environment us somehow, it was his delivery. sounds like to me. Were there and the teachers were different and people that you knew that sort of

136 T ony Del Valle An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago

they came well prepared. Some of with each other in a real interactive Yeah. Do you see Columbia having them were, you know, who were kind of way. That, I think, still an impact or has that changed? similar to the kids that I described works. In my research, that’s one of You said people know Columbia in that Evanston high school. They the major conclusions that I came as a trade school, but what’s were sitting in the same classroom to recently: That when you have been the impact of all of this? with a kid who made it through students working with each other Well, just in one small little area, high school and barely learned. I like that, that’s when they really all you need to do is go into the, mean, side-by-side in the same begin to acquire those things that this Morton Board on the third classroom. That’s what open admis- we were trying so hard to teach floor of the Wabash Building, and sions meant. On a grander... them, a different way of thinking you will see newspaper clippings of and acquiring other ways of speak- all the things that students have What did that mean for teachers ing and so on. Not much really done just in film, where they have that wanted to teach a class that giving up who they are but simply had at least a small part in, you in this sense... adding. know, major motion pictures: That you faced a challenge that no Titanic, some African-American other teacher faced at any other So do you think that, do you students-Soul Food is another. college: How could you reach all of think that this is a problem There’s so many just in that small them? that’s been on going and essen- area. And then if you look at the tially hasn’t changed, or has it school department by department And how did they reach all of changed at this period? it’s easy to see what impact they are them? I was talking to the person who’s in having. They’re doing wonderful Well, my first experience with charge of assessment, she told me, I things, these students, incredible. teaching was with the Story... it was kind of surprised, only recently worked really well in that part have we begun to separate, yes, all Do you think that Columbia is because it seeks to have students students, foreign students, and, influencing higher education? You learn a lot from each other. And kind of just, kind of say, “OK, this said John Schultz was ahead of researchers have said, and this was is what we have.” Because as they his time... to Columbia’s unique- where John was kind of ahead of are, this is how many we have of ness, its way about teaching his time, that, for example Labov, each kind and to focus teaching in writing. the linguist who wrote Language some ways to help that, and Well, about teaching fiction. and the Understanding and many students in need of special help in other books, that you really learned reading. But that’s only recently. In teaching fiction. how to speak, for example, how to And here, this department, there’s a switch language and switch from Do you think that’s a good idea? regression to the turn of the whatever your dialect is, whether Yes. century where colleges, college you’re a Latino or an African- English departments were, in other American, to standard English by Would it have helped twenty words, there’s regression instead of associating with people who speak years ago? progression. the language. By, not in a class- It would have, not that they room, not in a high school type weren’t helped back then, they In English? classroom but actively socializing were; however, this kind of hones Yes. At the turn of the century, with those people, talking with the efforts, it focuses the efforts colleges were really- English those people of different... So that that we were trying to do twenty departments were about teaching happened in those classrooms, the years ago. It adds to the effort. literature to an elite small group of people who were actually were students who were interested in it. given the permission, the encour- Could you, let me, one other And the bastard child was the agement, whatever, to try out new thing about the mission. What’s Writing Department, faculty. And things with their language and been the impact on the arts and so that’s unfortunate but, as I see it, their writing and so on. That’s one communications? Looking back and I weight them out between the of the ways that that was and looking at the whole College. two, our mission is to teach people approached, by expecting whoever In the city? how to write and in addition, to you had in front of you and work- appreciate and write about litera- ing with them and them working

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ture. Our mission is to teach of my fears, as a teacher’s teacher, is What does growth mean in the students how to write and also, that there will come a point where way teaching’s conducted? maybe to write poetry for those I stop looking at research and... I None, the amount of students. The people who are interested. So I look feel like I’ve been in school forever, amount who will come and pay at it from that perspective. I don’t since I was five. And I don’t want tuition and take more classes. It’s a see it; I don’t look at it from the to leave in the sense that I don’t tremendous amount of students. long end of a telescope. want to stop learning about learn- We’re struggling right now with ing. And, because I think if I stop finding places to put all these Has your personal vision of I’ll start, I’ll begin to not be able to students. education changed over the reach students anymore. And that years? can happen because there’s always, Did it affect what goes on in the It has changed in that I have you know, so many things happen- classroom? become more livened, I guess. I’ve ing all the time. Yes. On a day like today, I teach a learned from my teachers and from class on the other side of this build- the research. That’s how it has You mean in your personal— ing. Trains are going by, traffic is changed. And some of the things In research. going by, people are talking, you have been affirmed, that I’ve always can even hear people talking out on believed, and some of the things are Oh, in research, I see, yes, yes. the street. That is not conducive to new, a lot of things like... Some of One thing as a parent, I have also a classroom where reading, writing, the things I did with some kind of learned about my students because speaking happens, teaching that. understanding, such as some of the I know who they are at home now And I think that’s as a result of Story Workshop stuff, and now I that I have a teenager. So in a sense growth. That we have had to buy know. I’m quite certain, like a it all comes together, I guess, and it this building, put this department wisdom about it that I get after, affects the teaching. on this floor right next to the train what, eighteen years of teaching. I tracks. I don’t know, I just don’t hope I have. So that has changed What, what is, you mentioned the get it. I wouldn’t do it, I wouldn’t division of the Fiction and the do it, I wouldn’t do it. Anyway... Any other changes? Things you’ve English into two departments. changed your mind about? What other important events can Was the building 540 North Lake Well, things that I have changed you think of that were important Shore a better sort of space, do my mind about? No. Some things, in the College’s, at Columbia you think? I think this happens when a teacher while you here? On Lake Shore Drive? comes with time. And, you know, Well, the school has gone through you always heard the old teachers a lot of, a lot, well, for example the Yeah. say that you don’t really get it until Faculty Organization. These groups No, it was, you know, for romantic you’re like five or six tears, ten that have come together at a kind of reasons. You know, the years. Then you really are relaxed, school... crookedly, the floors, every time you get what it’s about fully, and you walk on that. I mean, oh, the you’re not struggling with basic Have you been involved in that? walls and it was not, what was it, it issues about how to reach people. Peripherally, not as President or was an old factory or something, I You do it, then you know how to any major role. Something else that don’t know, an old house. It had do it, how to understand people, has happened, well, of course, that that feel to it, there were pieces of their backgrounds. How do I take a a major change in a way was that wood that then had like ten layers student who was full of idealism we’ve changed from Alexandroff of paint on it and some of it was and energy and kind of look past from John Duff. I’ve seen that, I chipped and you could tell that it their new student foibles and stuff, mean, that was big. The Part-time did have ten layers of paint. And and see them down the line and see Teachers Union, that’s big; some the old bathroom fixtures; every- that this is just part of their big changes. As well as the other, where you could see, you know, process? You know, that kind of you know, the fact that Columbia’s that it was, what it had to have thing. And that kind of thing has now able to buy a lot of property is originally been. But I think one changed and that really, just the growing tremendously. That’s prob- building I like a lot is the Torco maturity, I think, as a person. One ably one of the most significant of all.

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Building. That’s nice, you know, ally what happened to me and I’m the classrooms are built with, you sure it happened to a lot of know, keeping in mind that teach- students. The courses that were ing is going to go on in them. So, taught here had to be explained. it’s kind of nice to think about it, “So that course with this interest- but no, I don’t think and sit. ing name,” because we used to have some very interesting names for a What has growth meant for the course, “what did it cover?” “OK, way faculty relate to each other well it covered a lot of British and to the administration? authors.” “OK, well then, you’ve That is one of the, that’s one of the met that requirement.” Do you good things that you get out of know what I’m saying? There was every week. Every time we go and no sense of connecting how we have a retreat up in Wisconsin, that jived with what was happening at we still are on the same idea, we other colleges; that was a problem. still believe in the mission of the College. This all probably sounds Was it because the classes were very corny but so what, it’s true. r eally different in a lot of ways? We all still believe in the mission No, they were just—it’s because of of the College. We still believe that the nature of the teachers too, how the students are the most impor- they approached the teaching and tant thing, that that’s really what what they want to call the courses. it’s all about: the students and the They’re non-traditional, they have teaching. So it hasn’t changed any. non-traditional names but they So we come away from these cover Shakespeare and they cover, retreats with that sense of reassur- you know. There used to be a ance. Because if that were to change course called The Erotic Universal. I don’t know that a lot of us would Now you go into Northwestern and stick around or would have stuck say, “I took a course called The around. Erotic Universal.”

Do you think growth is going to What was The Erotic Universal all be a problem in the future? For about? more, beyond... a problem with Well, we studied D.H. Lawrence, the faculty? Madame Bovary, Flaubert, D.H. Not if there’s planning done. If Lawrence, it was “serious literature” there’s planning and there’s a head- under this interesting name on discussion about it I don’t think (laughs). And so that’s why I had to it will change. If we start, we go explain what The Erotic acknowledge what’s going on and Universal was about when I went anticipate it then I think it will to Northwestern. So that was still stay, you know, it will be a happening at the time and, you good place to work still. know, I ended up having to make up some courses that were not I have a question about require- taught in here so that I would fit ments for graduation. When you into... were a student here were there many requirements, any require- ments? Yes, but that was a huge problem. In a sense that when I went to Northwestern, I’ll tell you person-

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