Equalities and Human Rights Committee Thursday 7 March 2019 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Thursday 7 March 2019 CONTENTS Col. CHILDREN (EQUAL PROTECTION FROM ASSAULT) (SCOTLAND) BILL: STAGE 1 .................................................... 1 EQUALITIES AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE 6th Meeting 2019, Session 5 CONVENER *Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) DEPUTY CONVENER *Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) *Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) *Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) *Gail Ross (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) *Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Bruce Adamson (Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland) Joanna Barrett (Barnardo’s Scotland, Children 1st and NSPCC Scotland) Martin Canavan (Aberlour Child Care Trust) Lucy Chetty (Scottish Autism) Alison Davis (Saheliya) John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Amy Johnson (Zero Tolerance) Tríona Lenihan (Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children) Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Maureen Phillip (PAMIS) Nora Uhrig (Equality and Human Rights Commission) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Claire Menzies LOCATION The James Clerk Maxwell Room (CR4) 1 7 MARCH 2019 2 that the state puts in place that guidance, support Scottish Parliament and education, and it corrects the issue that we have at present where the assault of children is Equalities and Human Rights allowable for the purpose of physical punishment. Committee As the committee is aware, the issue has been a regular feature of concern about Scotland from Thursday 7 March 2019 the international community—the United Nations, the Council of Europe and the European Union. I welcome John Finnie’s human rights leadership on [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:00] the matter and the committee’s role as a human Children (Equal Protection from rights guarantor to ensure that children in Scotland have their rights respected in relation to their Assault) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 physical integrity. The Convener (Ruth Maguire): Good morning Joanna Barrett (Barnardo’s Scotland, and welcome to the sixth meeting in 2019 of the Children 1st and NSPCC Scotland): As you Equalities and Human Rights Committee. Please said, convener, I am here to represent three ensure that mobile devices are switched to silent. organisations—NSPCC Scotland, Barnardo’s Scotland and Children 1st. We have been working I welcome Gordon Lindhurst MSP and John together for a long time to advocate the change Finnie MSP to the meeting. and we, too, commend John Finnie’s leadership in Agenda item 1 is our second oral evidence bringing the bill before Parliament. It is our strong session on the Children (Equal Protection from opinion that the law as it stands has no place in a Assault) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome our first panel: society that claims to be progressive and wants to Bruce Adamson, Children and Young People’s do the best for its children, so we strongly Commissioner for Scotland; Joanna Barrett, policy advocate the bill. and public affairs manager, Barnardo’s Scotland, Tríona Lenihan (Global Initiative to End All representing Barnardo’s, Children 1st and NSPCC Corporal Punishment of Children): As our name Scotland; Tríona Lenihan, advocacy and probably suggests, we strongly support the aims communications manager, Global Initiative to End of the bill as a means of realising children’s rights All Corporal Punishment of Children; and Martin to dignity and bodily integrity and to health, Canavan, policy and participation officer at development and education, and as a means of Aberlour Child Care Trust. reducing violence in families and society. I will start things off. Do you support the bill’s Martin Canavan (Aberlour Child Care Trust): aim of preventing the physical punishment of Thank you for inviting us along to give evidence children in Scotland? this morning. My answer is yes, Aberlour fully Bruce Adamson (Children and Young supports the bill and the aim of ensuring that People’s Commissioner Scotland): Yes. As children have the same protection from assault as Children and Young People’s Commissioner for adults through the prohibition of physical Scotland, my role is to promote and safeguard the punishment. We believe that all physical rights of children and young people, and the bill’s punishment of children should be prohibited by law aim is one of the most important legislative things and that children require more, not less, protection that we can do right now to secure children’s from violence than adults do. There naturally rights. exists an imbalance of power in adult/child relationships, and as a result it is critical that Assaulting a child for the purpose of punishment children are provided with as much protection in should never be legal. It is at odds with the values law as possible. that we hold in Scotland. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is clear that Aberlour has a proud history of advocating children should grow up in a family environment of against the physical punishment of children while happiness, love and understanding, and that, promoting positive alternatives to physical although parents have the responsibility to ensure punishment. Parenting support is a key focus of that children grow up in that environment, the state the work that we do with families every day, has an obligation to put in place clear protections. helping parents to become confident and secure in Article 19 of the convention says clearly that the their parenting. We believe that the focus of a state must put in place legislative protections to prohibition on physical punishment should be on ensure that children are protected from all forms of not the criminalisation of parents, but the violence and, alongside that, all the guidance, protection of children, not only by legislating but by support and education to allow parents to fulfil that promoting positive alternatives to physical role. The bill meets both those aims. It ensures punishment. We need to support parents who struggle to feel that they can deliver positive 3 7 MARCH 2019 4 parenting and help them to become confident in drafted very clearly. The family environment and their parenting. the role of parents are absolutely essential. I am talking about how the state can support parents Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) and families to ensure that children can access all (LD): Good morning. Thank you very much for their rights in relation to health, education and coming to see us. thriving. Article 5 of the convention sets out very Given that Aberlour Child Care Trust is clearly that the state shall respect the rights and represented, I say for the record that I worked with duties of parents; it also sets out a number of the trust as head of policy for eight years before I ways in which that should be done. Article 18 was elected to the Parliament. recognises the “primary responsibility” that parents have and says that the state has to provide I want to address the perceived tension between additional support to parents. The state needs to adults’ rights and children’s rights. Dr Waiton, who support families in order to deliver the rights of gave evidence to the committee last week, children and young people. There is absolutely no suggested that there is no such thing as children’s right to use physical violence as part of respect for rights. There are protections, but children are in private and family life. the care of their parents. Submissions against the bill have cited a tension between the right to family Article 8 of the European convention on human life and article 19 of the convention. Do the rights, which is a Council of Europe convention, panellists agree with Dr Waiton’s assertion that talks about there is no such thing as children’s rights? Bruce “respect for private and family life”. Adamson has said that article 19 states the clear international expectation that children have the The state can interfere with that only in certain right to be free from violence. Is there a conflicting circumstances. The European Court of Human right in any treaty in international law that could be Rights and all the UN committees have been very interpreted as giving parents the right to physically clear that there is no right to use violence in punish their children? relation to respect for family life. Bruce Adamson: The position that children do Joanna Barrett: We totally agree with the not have rights is completely untenable. We commissioner that it is pretty ludicrous to argue recently celebrated the 70th anniversary of the that children do not have rights, especially in front United Nations Universal Declaration of Human of the Equalities and Human Rights Committee. Rights, and the committee had a human rights Children’s rights are realised through their adults. takeover day on 10 December. Article 1 of the It is we who are the guardians, almost, of declaration states: children’s human rights. Rather than children’s and parents’ rights being in conflict, they are “All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.” actually totally complementary. I see my role as a parent as ensuring that I do my best to realise my The international community has been very children’s rights. The job of adults, Parliament and clear that children have not only rights, but society is to realise children’s rights. additional rights. Those have been set out in the preamble to the declaration, which identifies Alex Cole-Hamilton: Dr Waiton, who gave childhood as a time of special care and protection, evidence against the bill last week, suggested that and in successive international treaties at the UN, the right to family life is about autonomy and that Council of Europe and EU levels—most notably in parents should have autonomy to parent their the United Nations Convention on the Rights of children as they see fit.