Interview Shostakovich and Tishchenko An interview with Gabriel Tchalik

By Alan Mercer

hat the young instrumental- ist Gabriel Tchalik is better known in France than on the TAnglo-Saxon concert scene is no refection on his artistry; his life is cur- rently centred around his performing and studying activities in the French capital. Tat said, some readers may well have heard mention of Tchalik’s recent CDs dedicated to the music of Pietro Locatelli and Boris Tish- chenko (more of which, see below). Various concert halls around Europe have equally had the opportunity to see and hear the Tchalik Quartet: this ensemble was founded in 2011 and is The Tchalik Quartet: (from left) Gabriel and Louise, violin; Sarah, viola; Marc, cello. made up of Gabriel, his brother Marc © Sarah Tchalik (cello), and his two sisters, Louise (violin) and Sarah (viola). Te ensem- Tchalik graduated from the Con- I caught up with the young violinist ble dates from the young siblings’ servatoire de Versailles in 2007, but on the terrace of a typical brasserie in earliest recollections: their upbringing decided to deviate from a strictly central Paris: the hustle and bustle of was frmly rooted in music-making academic path, thus allowing him to the city trafc contrasted with Gabri- and in surroundings where music held combine his musical ambitions with el’s quiet, self-assured demeanour, as an important place. Another family personal goals that fall outside the he proudly presented me with his member, pianist Dania, Professor of world of music, e.g., studying phi- recently released CD. As the scowling Harmony at the Strasbourg Conser- losophy at the Sorbonne University. waitress lef us to our devices, and vatoire, occasionally augments the His awards as an interpreter are cofee, I asked him about his family ensemble for quintet work. numerous, including top prizes from roots and present-day infuences. Tchalik was born in France in the Islam Petrella Competition in 1989 into a Franco-Russian family. Albania in 2003 and the First Inter- Tchalik: My father arrived in France His consequent personal and artis- national Yuri Yankelevich Violin in 1988—he’s Russian. He grew up in tic development was—and continues Competition in Russia in 2009. Odessa, and later lived and worked in to be—infuenced and nourished by He has taken a special interest in Moscow, where he met my mother. both cultures. Tat said, his musical the music of one of Shostakovich’s My mother, who isn’t a musician, is training was placed frmly under the pupils, Boris Tishchenko, discuss- French, and is a professor of Russian. sign of the Russian school, starting ing his life and work when the two She speaks the language like any other with pianist Igor Lazko and violinist of them met in 2009. Tchalik has Russian might: my friends are always Elina Kuperman, and continuing with recently released a CD of world surprised when they fnd that she isn’t Alexander Brussilovsky—Tchalik’s premiere recordings of Boris Tish- Russian. She really speaks without teacher for many years. chenko’s complete works for violin. a trace of an accent, although she

dsch journal • Jan. 2016 • Nº 44 • 43 Shostakovich and Tishchenko • Alan Mercer learned Russian in college like every- and inspired more by taste and pure dsch: Could you tell us more about one else: perhaps this is a special case talent. I believe I’m a mix of the your work and your rapport with Tish- of reincarnation? [He laughs.] I was two—Russian and French! I’m not chenko? How did this come about? born in 1989, and I speak Russian at all saying that one is good and with my father. one isn’t, of course. Tchalik: First and foremost, I got to know Shostakovich’s music, just as dsch: Do any other members of your dsch: You know Russia well? all musicians do. I frst discovered family live in Paris? Tishchenko’s music in a small shop Tchalik: Yes. I have been there many in Moscow that sells scores—this Tchalik: Yes, my grandmother is times, ofen with my mother, who is a great shop for us Westerners, as from Odessa—she is a real charac- organises trips to Russia for her stu- it’s possible to fnd scores that sim- ter! She still comes to cook for us. dents; and also, of course, to give ply don’t exist in the West. And it She arrived in France the year afer concerts in various parts of Russia. was there that I found the score for my mother and father. My parents the Fantasy [for violin and piano, applied to leave Russia in 1988, and dsch: Including Odessa? comp. 1994] by Tishchenko, a piece it took the authorities six months about which I’d heard nothing at all. to grant an exit visa—which was Tchalik: I went there once, but only I showed it to my professor Alexan- pretty fast in those days. Tey made to visit and see the town. Tis was der Brussilovsky, who gave me more the journey to France by car, travel- with Dania. He was at the Stolyarsky information about Tishchenko’s music ling from Moscow to Odessa, and School there, so for him it was quite and life, including the fact that he was bringing a selection of items with something to return 15 years later. one of Shostakovich’s leading pupils. them, although in the end they had Post-Soviet towns and cities have He encouraged me very much to work to leave most of their belongings back changed a lot since then, including on the piece—something I did with in Moscow. My father is a musician, the architecture. In Odessa, some my brother Dania. a piano tuner, an artistic director, quite strange buildings have sprung and an audio engineer. In fact, I have up, ofen in a rather inharmonious dsch: Brussilovsky knew Shostak- always lived with music characterised fashion. You know the famous steps ovich and Tishchenko? by an unmistakable Russianness. from Battleship Potemkin? Well now Tis began with piano lessons from on this same spot, by the jetty, they’ve Tchalik: He certainly crossed Shos- my father, and then with Igor Lazko, built a 300-metre high tower block, takovich’s path in the corridors of the Alexander Brussilovsky, and Elina which completely eradicates the per- Conservatory, and he must have met Kuperman. Tis Russianness was spective that Eisenstein captured on Tishchenko similarly. Brussilovsky deeply ingrained—so much so that flm: that same sequence and per- played a great deal of Shostakovich’s the frst time I took violin lessons in spective would now be impossible! music, including the four preludes French, I found it extremely difcult scored for violin and piano (tran- to adapt! dsch: You know Moscow and St. scribed by Tsyganov), which I studied. Petersburg? Afer this, I learned Shostakovich’s dsch: From a musical standpoint, First Concerto with him. At this time, do you consider yourself to be more Tchalik: I’ve only been to St. Peters- however, Brussilovsky still hadn’t Russian than French? burg once, in fact—a year and a played any of Tishchenko’s music. half ago, to play a concert of French So to come back to Tishchenko, I Tchalik: As a performing musician, music with my family’s quintet. We adored the Fantasy (op. 118). In fact, yes, I feel an afnity with the Russian played a concert of pieces by Franck, the rendition of the piece on my recent school. Tat said, when working with Ravel, and the quartet by Reynaldo CD is the world premiere recording French musicians, I’m ofen reminded Hahn, the friend [and lover] of Mar- of the work, as are all of the other of two cultural traditions—two dif- cel Proust. works on the disc! Te piece is 15 ferent ways of approaching music. minutes long. It really is a wonderful dsch: Are you conscious of the dif- work. Each time I play it in public, I dsch: Such as? ferent schools and traditions that get a diferent reaction. Most of this exist between Moscow, St. Petersburg, music was written in the Soviet era, Tchalik: Russians are very passion- and Odessa? and despite Tishchenko’s connections ate; they invest their hearts and to Shostakovich, his writing is quite minds completely in the music. Tis Tchalik: Not so much between diferent—and in some places, not is something vital for them—the Moscow and St. Petersburg, but the particularly easy for the listener. It’s only thing that counts. Te French attitudes of people from Odessa are a piece that deserves to be performed are perhaps more rational: guided quite diferent now. far more ofen.

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Although Shostakovich and Tish- were composed when he was 18. It’s including some probing questions chenko both grew up in Russia, they interesting to note that, at this time in about the orchestration. In a letter, came of age during very diferent his musical development, Tishchen- Shostakovich told Tishchenko that periods. As such, they were logi- ko’s voice and style were more akin if he had any questions he should cally quite diferent people—and to Prokofev than to Shostakovich. not hesitate to ask, which is exactly this comes through in the music. what Tishchenko did. Tis irritated Shostakovich became very fatalistic— dsch: When did Tishchenko frst the older composer, who replied with disillusioned, even— towards the end meet Shostakovich? the old Russian adage, “If you’re given of his life. Even if Tishchenko used a horse, don’t look at its teeth!” similar expressions of grimness and Tchalik: Tis was in 1961, afer which If you listen to the two versions— desperation, he was someone who Shostakovich’s infuence became more one by Shostakovich, the other by consistently pushed musical ideas evident. Indeed, for Tishchenko, Tishchenko—you can judge for your- and expressions to their extreme: he Shostakovich became something of self. But to be honest, I prefer the never leaves any path unexplored, a god-like fgure. version by Tishchenko. I am not quite never stands still; he’s always search- sure why, but overall, I feel it works ing and striving. Tis contrasts with dsch: But weren’t there some less than better. the expressive style of Shostakovich, harmonious exchanges between the in which we sometimes hear doubts, two composers? dsch: Why do you think that Tish- hesitations, reservations. chenko’s music still hasn’t become Tchalik: Te two men did become very better known, or even accepted by the dsch: What about Tishchenko’s use good friends, which meant they could contemporary concert-going public? of atonal techniques? speak frankly about musical topics; Is it a lack of curiosity on the part of and this is what is interesting about audiences? Tchalik: Tishchenko did explore ideas the infuence on Tishchenko. Tere formed from within the Second Vien- is a famous story of Tishchenko not Tchalik: In my opinion, it’s a problem nese School. Tese were techniques following the rules in Shostakovich’s that comes from the interpreters and to which, of course, Shostakovich conservatory class, a story that Tish- not from the general public. It also did not have direct access during the chenko told me himself. It was just comes from concert organisers. If you Stalinist period. Very many of the afer he had written his Cello Con- look at contemporaries of Tishchenko modernist movements in the Soviet certo for Rostropovich. Tishchenko (e.g., Gubaidulina, Schnittke and Sil- Union occurred during the 1950s and came into class and announced to his vestrov), they are much better known 60s, at the time of the Taw under teacher, “Well here I am, and I have today than Tishchenko—in particu- Khrushchev. Composers such as Den- brought you my cello concerto!”; to lar Gubaidulina and Schnittke. In my isov, Gubaidulina, and Schnittke took which Shostakovich replied, “And view, however, Tishchenko’s work is full advantage of the relative liberty your piano sonata is where?”; they no less consistent. In my own case, I this period brought, although Tish- continued, “But Rostropovich asked prefer to play his music. chenko never embraced the style and me to write this for him!”; “Oh, so compositional methods of the twelve- whenever anyone asks you to write dsch: What might be the reason for tone movement to the same extent. something, you simply drop every- this neglect? Other important influences in thing do you?” You might even say Tishchenko’s music can be found in that there was a slight hint of jealousy Tchalik: Tis may be based more on the works of Bartók and Stravinsky; in Shostakovich’s criticism. politics than anything to do with the this, of course, is not the case for music, especially as the composers Shostakovich. Te use of rhythm in dsch: But then Shostakovich turned I’ve cited were regarded more as dis- many of Tishchenko’s works is very the tables and re-orchestrated the sidents. Tis afected the way Western pronounced and generally much more concerto, didn’t he? critics viewed them, largely because prominent than in Shostakovich’s of their political stance, including music. All of that said, the sense of Tchalik: Yes. Shostakovich arrived the fact that they apparently chose spirit that runs through the music one day and told Tishchenko that to work abroad to a great extent. Of of each composer conjures up clear he had a gif for his 30th birthday, course, this may or may not have been and strong similarities: both were which was his re-orchestration of the their choice. Tishchenko, on the other prodigies, and both began their sym- concerto! Tishchenko took the whole hand, rarely travelled outside of the phonic careers at a very early age. On afair very seriously and, of course, Soviet Union, and whenever he did, it the new CD, I perform Tishchenko’s was quite touched and honoured; was in the capacity of a pianist rather frst two works for violin [Rondo, op. however, he did write several remarks than a composer. He was an excellent 2, and the First Sonata, op. 5], which in one of his notebooks, in red pen, pianist, whose music was played very

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Gabriel Tchalik. © Claire Douieb

little abroad, at least before the fall fghting for it to be performed, ofen accessible to the majority of con- of the Soviet Union. I discussed this in the face of severe disapproval. cert-going audiences and would not question with Jacques Iofe [writer, require a huge amount of work to friend of the composer], who told me dsch: Why the general relative lack bring to fruition, yet it remains almost that Tishchenko expressed no polit- of exposure, though, even in Russia? totally unperformed. Te same is true ical opinions: he never spoke about of the Cello Concerto, which, as we politics, and he himself was certainly Tchalik: Tishchenko’s works were, mentioned, was written for Rostropo- no dissident. Or at least if he had any and still are, performed by Gergiev vich. Unfortunately, the system and political convictions, he kept those and Rozhdestvensky, among other organisation of concert planning and to himself. He was certainly never well-known conductors. Kondrashin concert giving today in Russia is very an overt dissident. was also a great proponent. I believe, complex: there is very little money however, that one reason for the rel- available for innovation. And even dsch: It was Tishchenko’s decision, ative lack of popularity and exposure when the possibility arises to depart then, to take up this apolitical stance? is that Tishchenko’s symphonies are from the standard repertoire, con- perceived as long and difcult. Tis cert organisers tend to prefer “true” Tchalik: Yes, indeed. Although this is ironic, given that the epic sympho- contemporary music written by liv- didn’t prevent him from, for example, nies by Mahler and Shostakovich are ing composers. writing a Requiem based on Akhma- played so ofen these days. So in all tova’s poem of the same name, which honesty, I’m sure that Tishchenko dsch: So what do musicians in Rus- was subsequently banned. Tis was symphonies would—and should— sia actually know about Tishchenko’s also the fate of his score for the bal- fnd a place in the repertoire, given music? let Te Twelve based on Blok [op. the listening public’s familiarity with 25, 1963] on which he worked with the epic genre. Tchalik: It’s difcult to know. I have Yakobson, and which was also Another major problem is that con- many musical friends in Russia who banned. Tis is a very touching story, ductors fnd it harder and harder to know very little about Tishchenko in fact. Tishchenko absolutely wanted integrate “new” works into the con- and his music; in particular, the to keep the last scene. But it was cut, cert repertoire—whether or not the younger members of the musical of course, which made the composer music merits more exposure. Take fraternity know almost nothing about absolutely furious. Ultimately, the Tishchenko’s Fifh Symphony, which him. I hope that the appearance of piece was banned in its entirety, and includes themes linked to Shosta- CDs dedicated to Tishchenko’s music Tishchenko spent years arguing and kovich’s works. Tis piece would be will improve this situation. Tere is a

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Gabriel and Dania Tchalik with Boris Tishchenko. Paris, November 2009

disc featuring Tishchenko’s two piano mentioned specifcally that the Sec- dsch: You mentioned irony? sonatas (nos. 7 and 8) by Nicolas ond Sonata was something important Stavy, which was released recently to him, and that he was keen for it Tchalik: Yes, but not in the sense in France. And then there is my own to be performed again. I had only of mocking or grotesque; it is more disc, which I hope will raise awareness recently obtained the score of the a case of specifc stylistic choices of the quality of Tishchenko’s music. Sonata—it’s an exceptional work in tending towards an ironic tone. As I mentioned earlier, there is the seven movements, and lasts more You know, Tishchenko likes long Fantasy, which is, in my view, a major than half an hour. passages, and this tendentiousness twentieth-century work for violin and in the music becomes more and piano. Works of this calibre are few dsch: Te work has an unusual form, more strained, veering towards the and far between—at the beginning doesn’t it? unsupportable, rather like the long of the century, the only works of real sections in Shostakovich’s Tenth Sym- quality in this genre were by Ravel Tchalik: Yes, it does! Tere are four phony, but with even more tenuous, and Bartók. But afer that, very little movements, each of which is sepa- drawn-out passages. Tis is typical music was written of that standard, rated by an intermezzo in the style of Tishchenko—leading up to the point and in my view, the Fantasy belongs the Second Viennese School. In fact, at which climaxes become almost to that category. Tere’s also the Sec- the four “core” movements could well hysterical, and out-of-control. ond Sonata for solo violin, which is have been inspired by Shostakovich an incredible piece. in typical Tishchenko Russian-So- dsch: Was this a refection of his viet style, whereas the intermezzi personality? dsch: Can you relate any more direct are completely diferent and repre- exchanges with Tishchenko? sent music that would never fnd its Tchalik: I think so. Tis was some- place in Shostakovich’s repertoire—it’s body who might be described as Tchalik: Unfortunately, we only met Webern! Tese intermezzi pull the tormented, rather like Shostakov- briefy when he came to Paris in 2009, work apart completely. But ultimately, ich. In fact, I was able to talk with and when I performed in front of the music is fully coherent. It’s a real Valentin Silvestrov about this phe- a small audience at the Shostakov- tour de force. I know of no other work nomenon. He knew Tishchenko ich Centre there. He really did like quite like it: such a mix of style, genre, very well, and elucidated his obses- the fact that I was playing his vio- and technique—a unique piece that sive streak through an incident that lin repertoire. When I told him that works very well on the concert plat- took place when they attended one I intended to record his works, he form and in the studio. of those typical Soviet composers’

dsch journal • Jan. 2016 • Nº 44 • 47 Shostakovich and Tishchenko • Alan Mercer retreats together in the 1970s. Silves- composers would often debate why all of his symphonies have fve trov lent Tishchenko a book he had poetry and literature, and not always moments. He explained that four been reading that included Buddhist agree. As you know, Shostakovich movements, in his view, were not texts. Tishchenko was somebody was a great supporter of Yevgeny enough, and that the works needed, who was forever curious, and inter- Yevtushenko, whereas Tishchenko as he put it, a “backbone,” which ested in many diferent cultures. He didn’t really like him. Shostakovich he placed at the centre of the sym- knew African and Oriental music became exasperated by this and phonies’ structure. For Tishchenko, very well, for instance. But in his wrote a number of letters to Tish- this “extra” movement provides an haste to return the book to Silvestrov, chenko to try to persuade him that enhanced symmetrical structure. he accidentally slid the book under the poet really was up there with Another common symphonic trait the door of a bedroom belonging the best. Tishchenko’s opinion was of his involves passages of thematic to a woman unknown to him! Te based on a mixture of Yevtushenko development that plunge suddenly next day, Silvestrov reprimanded the man and Yevtushenko the poet, into total disharmony! Tis is, again, Tishchenko for not having returned and what you might call the “moral- where the Second Viennese School the book. Ten, in a ft of reckless ising” aspect of Yevtushenko’s works. comes into play; sometimes this guilt, Tishchenko was seen climb- Tishchenko was a good friend of takes the shape of a large percus- ing out of his bedroom window Brodsky, and he also knew Akhma- sion ensemble, resembling modern and into the bedroom of the lady tova well. He circulated in the most jazz or even rock music—very rhyth- to rescue the book! We sometimes elevated of literary circles, knew mic. Tis is something that we fnd catch a glimpse of this boldness in all of Dante’s works, and wrote in many of his works. It is chaos, but his music. His works are very rarely many works for theatre, including rhythmic chaos! A real trademark. discrete. In fact, Brussilovsky once a work based on Anatole France You know that much of what was told me that Tishchenko was capable (Symphonie Frantsuzskaya - French imported into the USSR in the 1960s of being very short-tempered—cer- Symphony) and Jean Anouilh (Zhav- came from the conductor Blazhkov, tainly somebody without airs and oronok – Te Lark). Te composer most notably as regards Berg and graces. was a great admirer of France and Schoenberg’s music. But whereas French literature. the works of Silvestrov and Denisov, dsch: One might say a complex for example, take on a dodecaphonic person? dsch: As somebody who knows Tish- guise, Tishchenko’s works insert such chenko’s music as well as anyone in passages in the middle of more con- Tchalik: Yes, you’re right. You know, the West, which three works would ventional, tonal music. he remarried several times, and you recommend to the Dsch Jour- therefore lived through some rather nal’s readers? dsch: I seem to remember a reference tempestuous periods in his personal to twelve-tone technique in a letter life, too. Tchalik: Of course, you would expect from Shostakovich to Tishchenko. me to nominate the Fantasy! Tis is dsch: Isn’t there a defnitive biogra- representative of Tishchenko’s reper- Tchalik: Yes, that’s right. Referring phy of Tishchenko? toire, as is the Fifh Symphony—also to one of Tishchenko’s piano sona- mentioned. Te Seventh Symphony, tas, Shostakovich asked, “Is that the Tchalik: No, there isn’t, but that however, is one of the easiest works well-known twelve-tone technique?” would be a wonderful project to by Tishchenko to listen to, and there- Tishchenko replied, “No, no, not at undertake for someone who knew fore would make a good introduction all, I just chose those notes by ear!” him—someone who could relate his to the composer. It’s quite accessible And apparently Shostakovich found life and his work. His widow could and joyful. It’s not at all tortured, that remark very amusing, repeating do this, I suppose. She remains a very and is even playful in places, with it when they next met. “Just by ear!” active person. In fact, she helped me just a touch of humour mixed with To come back to the question of a great deal when I was looking for irony—just like Shostakovich. choosing works by Tishchenko to certain scores. Perhaps she could Tat said, the listener should not listen to, I strongly recommend the take this on. imagine that much of Tishchenko’s Dante Symphonies. Tere are sev- repertoire is similar to the Seventh eral of them [op. 123, nos. 1–5], dsch: In what other ways do the lives Symphony—far from it. We also and they are excellent. In fact, afer of Shostakovich and Tishchenko talked about the Cello Concerto as Tishchenko had completed the Dante overlap? performed by Rostropovich, which Symphonies, he announced, “I have is a fabulous piece. fnished my work. Now I can die.” Tchalik: Certainly in the con- I remember Tishchenko explain- And, indeed, he died not long afer text of Russian literature. Te two ing, during a conference in Paris, completing the cycle.

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