Fift h Session, 39th Parliament
OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
(HANSARD)
Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 43, Number 6
THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER
ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)
LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC
Fifth Session, 39th Parliament
SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Energy, Mines and Natural Gas and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Advanced Education, Innovation and Technology and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and Minister of State for Seniors ...... Hon. Ralph Sultan Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Citizens' Services and Open Government ...... Hon. Ben Stewart Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education ...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Pat Bell Minister of State for Small Business ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Social Development ...... Hon. Dr. Moira Stilwell Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon. Mary Polak
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker ...... Linda Reid Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Dawn Black Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING
Abbott, George (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission ...... Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford South ...... John van Dongen Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff , Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP) ...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Harry Bloy Bloy, Harry (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Brar, Jagrup (NDP) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Cariboo North ...... Bob Simpson Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack ...... John Les Cantelon, Ron (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Chilliwack-Hope ...... Gwen O'Mahony Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Chong, Hon. Ida (BC Liberal) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Th orne Coell, Murray (BC Liberal) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta North ...... Guy Gentner Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Delta South ...... Vicki Huntington Coons, Gary (NDP) ...... North Coast Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Dix, Adrian (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Kevin Krueger Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Falcon, Kevin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Gentner, Guy (NDP) ...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo ...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Colin (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Hawes, Randy (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Nechako Lakes ...... John Rustad Hayer, Dave S. (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall Heed, Kash (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview New Westminster ...... Dawn Black Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock North Coast...... Gary Coons Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca North Island ...... Claire Trevena Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Howard, Rob (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Hon. Ida Chong James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Parksville-Qualicum ...... Ron Cantelon Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River North ...... Pat Pimm Krog, Leonard (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South ...... Blair Lekstrom Krueger, Kevin (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Joe Trasolini Lali, Harry (NDP) ...... Fraser-Nicola Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Hon. Pat Bell Lekstrom, Blair (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Les, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Richmond Centre ...... Rob Howard Letnick, Hon. Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond East ...... Linda Reid MacDiarmid, Hon. Dr. Margaret (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich North and the Islands ...... Murray Coell McIntyre, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Saanich South ...... Lana Popham McNeil, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Shuswap ...... George Abbott McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Skeena ...... Robin Austin Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson O'Mahony, Gwen (NDP) ...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Kevin Falcon Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Panorama ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Surrey-Tynehead ...... Dave S. Hayer Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Sather, Michael (NDP) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver–False Creek ...... Mary McNeil Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Kash Heed Simpson, Bob (Ind.) ...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Slater, John (Ind.) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Stewart, Hon. Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver-Langara ...... Hon. Dr. Moira Stilwell Stilwell, Hon. Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Sultan, Hon. Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. Christy Clark Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Colin Hansen Th orne, Diane (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Trasolini, Joe (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Hon. Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Joan McIntyre Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna ...... Hon. Ben Stewart
Party Standings: BC Liberal 45; New Democratic 36; Independent 4
CONTENTS
Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting
Page
Routine Business
Introductions by Members ...... 13297
Tributes ...... 13298 Keith MacKenzie Hon. D. McRae
Introductions by Members ...... 13298
Introduction and First Reading of Bills ...... 13298 Bill 13 — Supply Act (No. 1), 2013 Hon. M. de Jong Bill M205 — Social Media Password Protection Act, 2013 N. Simons Bill M206 — Standards of Care for Breeders of Companion Animals Act J. Th ornthwaite
Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 13300 Merritt Centennials hockey team H. Lali Association of Former MLAs K. Krueger Burnaby apartment building fi re and response K. Corrigan Technology-facilitated program at Seycove Secondary School J. Th ornthwaite Iqra Islamic School in Surrey and work of Ali Mihirig B. Ralston Vancouver International Airport and CEO Larry Berg R. Howard
Oral Questions ...... 13302 Premier's offi ce records and freedom-of-information requests A. Dix Hon. C. Clark D. Routley Hon. B. Stewart Times of India Film Awards show and freedom-of-information request R. Chouhan Hon. P. Bell Investigation into partisan activities relating to multicultural outreach strategy L. Krog Hon. C. Clark Graduated licensing for motorcycles K. Corrigan Hon. S. Bond R. Austin Inclusion of fi nancial instruments in government asset sale B. Ralston Hon. M. de Jong
Petitions ...... 13307 D. Th orne Orders of the Day
Committee of the Whole House ...... 13307 Bill 4 — Tla'amin Final Agreement Act Hon. I. Chong S. Fraser N. Simons B. Simpson
Report and Th ird Reading of Bills ...... 13324 Bill 4 — Tla'amin Final Agreement Act
Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right) ...... 13324 Hon. S. Bond
Committee of the Whole House ...... 13324 Bill 5 — Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2013 M. Sather Hon. T. Lake C. Trevena 13297
TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2013 from the Advocis, the Financial Advisors Association of Canada. Advocis is the largest voluntary profession- Th e House met at 1:34 p.m. al membership association of fi nancial advisers in the country and has 2,000 members across British Columbia. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] With members in every community, Advocis is uniquely placed to meet with members and discuss issues related Routine Business to the fi nancial services industry. I'd ask the House to please welcome President David Introductions by Members Webb and everyone from Advocis here today.
Hon. M. de Jong: Joining us today in the gallery are a M. McNeil: I have two guests in the gallery this aft er- group of entrepreneurs, businessmen and -women from noon, and I would like the House to please make them Victoria — Peter Hardcastle, Raj Virk, Malty Devy, Glen feel welcome. Stacy Robertson and Sarah Hentschel have Sharky, Erin Usapch, Chris Passero and Johannes van both joined us for question period. Both Stacy and Sarah Dieten. I hope members will welcome these folks who, are legal counsel with Watson Goepel in Vancouver. May I'm told, are making their fi rst visit to these hallowed the House please make them feel welcome. halls. Please make them welcome. R. Fleming: In the gallery from S.J. Willis School in M. Karagianis: Today in the precinct we are going to my constituency, from the Access alternative program, be joined by 40 guests from Royal Roads University — 39 we have teacher Carol Aileen and three of her students students, accompanied by their teacher. I think they'll be — Erica Bates, Kim Feilde and Th ea Mayrhofer. I would joining us at some point during the next hour of session like the House to make them welcome to the Legislative here in the House. Would everyone please make them Assembly. very welcome. Also here today is a constituent of mine, Mr. James [1335] Dundas.
Hon. P. Bell: Joining us in the House today are three J. McIntyre: I have a special guest in the gallery who dedicated public servants from the tourism division in joined me for lunch today. She's a family friend, and she the Ministry of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training. Joining has shown interest in politics since a young age, in high us in the gallery are Clare Mason and Richard Porges, school, helping me out on my 2005 campaign. Her name who are both committed individuals who've worked is Talia Armstrong, and she's now a third-year student very, very hard to make sure tourism progresses forward in UVic — guess what — in political science. She's inter- in the province. ested in pursuing a law degree and/or international re- Th irdly, we also have Ray LeBlond, who has spent 13 lations. Would you all please join me in making her feel years working in the ministry and previously in Tourism very welcome — her fi rst visit. B.C. He has done a spectacular job. We are sad that he is moving on, back into the private sector. He has been a key M. Elmore: I'd like to welcome from Sir Charles contributor in the development of the Destination B.C. Tupper Secondary School three grade 11 social studies legislation as well as the development of the initial board. classes with 70 students. Th ey're led by their very capable I would ask that all members of the House please make principal, Kal Gill, and accompanied by two social stud- all three individuals very welcome. ies teachers, Autin Lum and Bonnie Burnell, as well as parent volunteers Hung Vu, Vincent Locke, Kim Rebain L. Krog: Joining us in the gallery today are 31 students and Katherine Olsen — also known as Ms. K. from the Vancouver Island University's fourth-year busi- They come to Victoria at a very opportune time. ness and government course. Accompanying them is Th ey're very excited to listen to question period. Th ey're their hard-working professor Dana Collette. Th ey're here also interested and very engaged in the importance of spending the day in the Legislature, learning how busi- the youth vote. Sir Charles Tupper is known especially ness and government work together. I'd ask the House to for celebrating and welcoming all the diverse cultures in please make them all welcome. Vancouver-Kensington. I ask everyone to please make them very welcome. M. Coell: I have two guests in the Legislature today — a former deputy minister, Bob Food, and his wife, Liz. Hon. T. Lake: Today I rise to make a diff erent sort of Th ey're both from Saltspring. Would the House please introduction. Usually, members introduce visitors and make them welcome. make note of their praiseworthy qualities, but today I rise to introduce someone who has interesting taste in B. Ralston: In the gallery this aft ernoon is a delegation clothing. 13298 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
On February 7, National Sweater Day, the Ministry of in British Columbia. Joining us in the House today are Environment lowered offi ce temperatures by two degrees Mayor Jon Lefebure, mayor of North Cowichan; Jennifer and challenged staff to wear a sweater to work. Today I and Ian Woike of Farmer Ben's Eggs; and Blaine Hardie rise in the House to congratulate David Tesch, a Ministry of Hardie Honey. Between them, they represent two of of Environment employee, a biologist, who won this our 300 commodities right here in British Columbia. year's ugliest sweater contest. Would the House please make them feel very welcome. [1340] I had the pleasure to take David to lunch in the legis- J. Rustad: It's a pleasure today to introduce two guests lature dining room earlier today and learned about his to the House, Tony Straquadine and Terrance Kutryk extensive career in the public service. He's been with us with Alliance Pipeline. We had an opportunity to have since 1996, mostly with policy related to fi sheries, and lunch today and to talk about the future of our natur- now manages the ecosystem information section of the al gas industry, and the importance. Would the House knowledge management branch of the ministry. Unlike please make them welcome. with his sweater, David had some very good taste in where he lived. From '96 to 2004 he lived in the great M. Dalton: A couple of weeks ago on the ferry I met city of Kamloops. a couple of very interesting people, Jona and Uri El- Today we learned about the history of the sweater, Hanany from Tel Aviv, Israel. Uri is working now as made 20 years ago by his wife. He has worn it to every a principal scientist with Redlen Technologies in the part of this province on his fi eld trips, and he actually Victoria area, which is a manufacturer of imaging equip- loves his sweater. I want to remind people that when it ment, including nuclear cardiology, CT scanning, bag- comes to National Sweater Day — in fact, all year round gage scanning and dirty bomb detection. Jona is a retired — let's turn down our thermostats, wear a sweater and pharmacist who worked with the Ministry of Health and congratulate David and his lovely sweater in the gallery spent quite a bit of time in the Knesset, the Israeli parlia- here today. ment, and Jona is with us today. Shalom to her, and would the House please make her feel welcome. P. Pimm: I'd like to introduce a constituent of mine today, Brad Brain. Brad is here with the Advocis group. H. Bloy: For the second day in a row I have the privil- He is also president of the Fort St. John Chamber of ege of introducing my son-in-law, Travis Rawluk, who is Commerce. Would the House help me make him very here again today to see question period live for the fi rst welcome. time. I'm asking the House to please make him welcome.
Hon. D. McRae: I have two guests in the Legislature R. Hawes: I rise today to recognize somebody who has today. I have Dr. Barb Fehlau and Dave Lapointe. Barb is not been recognized in this House, I don't think, and, in a physician in the Comox Valley and one of the leaders in my view, should have been. Th at's a great Mission art- the fi eld of palliative care in British Columbia, and I may ist from my hometown who designed and constructed say that she's probably also a leader in western Canada. the beautiful bronze statue of the fallen fi reman outside Would the House please make them welcome. on the precinct grounds. Th at would be Dean Lauze of Mission. Could the House give a big shout-out to Dean. Tributes Introduction and KEITH MacKENZIE First Reading of Bills
Hon. D. McRae: On a sad note today as we stand in BILL 13 — SUPPLY ACT (No. 1), 2013 this Legislature, in the Comox Valley there is a celebra- tion of life for a gentleman named Keith MacKenzie. Hon. M. de Jong presented a message from His Keith was the 12-year president for the Courtenay fi sh Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Supply Act and game club in the Comox Valley. He served the club (No. 1), 2013. incredibly well. I've known him over 30 years. He was also my scoutmaster when I was 12 years old. Keith Hon. M. de Jong: I move fi rst reading of Bill 13. passed away at the age of 67. He'll be missed by his family, the fi sh and game club, and our community. Motion approved. [1345] Introductions by Members Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister. Hon. N. Letnick: Today I have the pleasure of host- ing four distinguished people from the agricultural sector Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, consistent with other Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13299
supply acts presented prior to elections, Bill 13 will pro- Lastly, it prevents prospective applicants from having vide interim supply for government operating expenses to make a choice between protecting their privacy and for the fi rst six months of the 2013-14 fi scal year. It also possible employment, educational or public service op- provides interim supply for government's fi nancing re- portunities. quirements for the 2013-14 fi scal year, including two- I move that the Social Media Password Protection Act, thirds of the year's voted capital expenditures and loans, 2013, be placed on the orders of the day for second read- investments and other requirements, and 100 percent of ing at the next sitting of the House aft er today. the year's requirements for revenues collected for and transferred to other entities. Bill M205, Social Media Password Protection Act, Again, consistent with the supply acts that have been 2013, introduced, read a fi rst time and ordered to be tabled in years where there are elections, I move that Bill placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next 13 be placed on the orders of the day for consideration sitting of the House aft er today. by the House at the next sitting aft er today. BILL M206 — STANDARDS OF CARE FOR Bill 13, Supply Act (No. 1), 2013, introduced, read a BREEDERS OF COMPANION ANIMALS ACT fi rst time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House aft er J. Th ornthwaite presented a bill intituled Standards of today. Care for Breeders of Companion Animals Act.
BILL M205 — SOCIAL MEDIA PASSWORD J. Th ornthwaite: I move that a bill entitled Standards PROTECTION ACT, 2013 of Care for Breeders of Companion Animals Act, of which notice has been given on the order paper, be intro- N. Simons presented a bill intituled Social Media duced and now read for the fi rst time. Password Protection Act, 2013. Motion approved. N. Simons: I move that a bill intituled Social Media Password Protection Act, 2013, be introduced and read Mr. Speaker: Continue, Member. for a fi rst time now. J. Th ornthwaite: Th is bill declares that breeders of Motion approved. three or more female dogs or cats capable of reproduc- tion will be required not only to understand but to meet N. Simons: Th e Social Media Password Protection the standards of care in handling and breeding their ani- Act amends the Personal Information Protection Act to mals. prohibit an organization from asking for personal access We all remember the sled dog tragedy and the sub- information on an individual's social media website and sequent amendment to the PCA Act, which made our further prohibits asking the individuals to sign on in their regulations the toughest in Canada. I've adapted those presence, a practice known as shoulder-surfi ng. British best practices from across the world. Columbia would be the fi rst jurisdiction in Canada to Since fi rst introducing this bill last year, I've completed specifi cally prohibit these practices. a detailed consultation process with veterinarians, ani- Th e fi rst such law in North America came into force in mal advocacy organizations and legitimate breeders and Maryland in March 2012. It was in response to the case have revised it according to their advice. Th is ensures of a correctional offi cer who was forced to provide his the bill enforces the highest standards in animal welfare. Facebook password to an interviewer during a recertifi - Th e bill does not target the many good and honest cation process when he returned from a leave of absence. breeders in B.C., many of whom support my bill. Rather, Cases in Washington State, Ontario, Minnesota, here in it targets less scrupulous breeders who only seek monet- British Columbia and in the United Kingdom suggest ary gains from the mass production of animals, with little other jurisdictions will follow suit. or no consideration for the animals' well-being. Already, since Maryland enacted its fi rst law less than Recently there was a case of animal hoarding here in a year ago, Illinois, California and Michigan have fol- Victoria. Forty-fi ve puppies were rescued from inhumane lowed suit. Nine more states are currently craft ing simi- conditions. It is for tragic stories such as this one that I lar legislation. feel the need to act. While we should never assume anything on line will be Th is bill gives teeth to enforce animal cruelty regu- kept private, privacy is a condition that is threatened in lations and encourages greater levels of self-regulation our society. Th is act reaffi rms an individual's right to pro- amongst breeders. It will also protect prospective dog tect their own privacy as well as the privacy of those with and cat owners by helping them identify good breeders. whom they have had communication on social media. I ask for your support, and I move that the bill be 13300 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the ASSOCIATION OF FORMER MLAs next sitting of the House aft er today. [1350] K. Krueger: Th e year was 1998, and despite things that a lot of people say, not everything was dismal in the Bill M206, Standards of Care for Breeders of '90s. [Applause.] Companion Animals Act, introduced, read a fi rst time Warm applause from the offi cial opposition. Th ank and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second you. reading at the next sitting of the House aft er today. On February 10, 1998, Bill 55 passed third reading. Bill 55 was the Association of Former MLAs of British Statements Columbia Act. Soon a number of people presently in this (Standing Order 25B) chamber — including me, actually — will qualify to be- come members of that distinguished association. MERRITT CENTENNIALS HOCKEY TEAM Its objects include putting the knowledge and experi- ence of former MLAs at the service of parliamentary H. Lali: Th e Kamloops Rockets, one of four origin- democracy here in British Columbia and elsewhere, and al teams in the upstart Okanagan Mainline Junior A also serving the public interest by providing non-partisan Hockey League, was founded in 1961. When the WCHL support for the parliamentary system of government in Vancouver Nats moved to Kamloops in 1973 to become British Columbia, fostering a spirit of community among the Chiefs, the city's team moved to White Rock that former MLAs and good relations between former and summer and was renamed the Centennials. current MLAs. By November White Rock was struggling on the ice I was saddened some time ago to read of the death of and at the gate. In January 1974 Merritt businessmen a former MLA in Mexico. His widow said that he used Jim Flux, Len Pare, Bill Pooley, John Mulvey and Don to say: "Th ere's nothing as has-been as a former MLA." Dewinetz formed Merritt Hockey Ltd. and purchased Th at's a tragedy. It should not be that way. and moved the franchise to the Nicola Valley Memorial Folks come into the chamber, every one of us, meaning Arena in Merritt. to represent our constituents well, and by and large, that's Th e Cents are one of only fi ve community-owned fran- what we do. Th is is a great association. Its work includes chises in the BCHL, run by a volunteer executive and awarding scholarships, fellowships and bursaries to stu- board of directors whose sole objective is to help Junior dents engaged in studies related to an increased under- A hockey fl ourish in the community. Former Centennials standing of democracies and parliaments, and a variety who played in the National Hockey League include Fred of recognition and charitable events for those who make Berry; Glen Cochrane; Tim Watters; Don Nachbaur; signifi cant contributions to our civil society. Ron Flockhart; Alan Kerr; Neil Eisenhut; Link Gaetz; Now for the ask. Th e board of this association is seek- Bill Muckalt; Mike Brown; and, of course, Merritt's own ing the membership of all retiring MLAs. homegrown boys, Paul Mulvey and Eddy Beers, who I Your presence is desired. You are in demand. Th e in- went to school with, and Paul Kruse. vitation is proff ered herewith. I was actually asked to do Th e BCHL is arguably the top league in all of Canadian this statement by the association, and I'm pleased to do it. Junior A hockey. Th e Cents, second in the league this Please contact the organization at [email protected]. year, trail the reigning champs and their archrivals, the Penticton Vees, by just six points. Th e Cents have beaten BURNABY APARTMENT BUILDING FIRE the Vees in four out of six games this year. Th e playoff s AND RESPONSE will indeed be interesting. Since joining the league, Merritt has advanced to the K. Corrigan: A nighttime fi re destroyed an apartment playoff s 33 times, including this year, and won both the building on Smith Avenue in Burnaby on February 17, Doyle and Mowat cups during the '77-78 season — not leaving the residents of all 34 units homeless. Luckily, no bad considering the Vancouver Canucks made the NHL one was badly hurt, but several beloved animals were lost playoff s 25 times in 40 years. And we're still waiting for from this pet-friendly building. Most residents were left that elusive Stanley Cup one of these years. with nothing — no home to live in, no possessions and Merrittonians love their Junior A hockey team. While in many cases not even personal identifi cation. Merritt is the smallest market in the 15-team league, the I want to take this opportunity to commend my com- Merritt Centennials hockey club, now in its 40th year, is munity and many agencies for quick action on a num- the longest continuously run franchise in the history of ber of fronts. I want to thank the 41 fi refi ghters that very the British Columbia Hockey League. professionally fought the fi re. Sorry, Mr. Speaker, the Penticton Vees unfortunately [1355] ceased operations one year and did not play. Th e city of Burnaby emergency program, the Burnaby To the Merritt Centennials: here's to another 40 years. Taskforce on Homelessness, the Red Cross, the Salvation Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13301
Army, the Progressive Housing Society and the South IQRA ISLAMIC SCHOOL IN SURREY Burnaby Neighbourhood House all went into action to AND WORK OF ALI MIHIRIG fi nd places to live, clothes and household items. Th e prov- incial emergency program provided hotel rooms. Faith B. Ralston: Iqra School is a growing presence in north groups stepped in as well. Surrey. It began in 1997 with 18 students and has grown My offi ce worked hard supporting those actions and, dramatically to its present enrolment of 386 students in in addition, assisted several residents in getting some- kindergarten to grade 8. Students learn the same curricu- thing very basic but very necessary: new identifi cation. lum as Surrey's public schools, but they also study Islam It was a very diffi cult task that oft en involved working and learn to speak and write Arabic. with other provinces. We arranged fee waivers for ID and Th e school is located on a small site just south of the wrote letters for tenants, connecting people with their CN rail yards in north Surrey. Regularly expanding, it MPs' offi ces and a variety of organizations. now includes 12 classrooms and a new wing, a play- Our call for notarial services was answered by gen- ground and a recently updated gymnasium. erous lawyers and notaries. Th e board of trade stepped Dr. Ali Mihirig is the founding chair of the school up and requested assistance from its members, and board and led its growth until recently. Originally from Scotiabank and others came through with acts of cor- Libya, Dr. Mihirig moved to British Columbia, where he porate generosity. earned a master's degree in electrical engineering from I want to thank the Minister of Justice and the Minister UBC in 1984 followed by a PhD in the same fi eld in 1987. Responsible for Housing for personally stepping in and He founded AM Power Systems, specializing in energy assuring that every eff ort was made to facilitate assistance and electrical power distribution, and consulted world- to the residents. Th is was a terrible, life-altering event for wide from his base here in British Columbia over the the Smith Avenue residents, but I'm proud that my com- past three decades. munity came together to provide much-needed support. With the fall of the Gadhafi regime, Dr. Mihirig felt Perhaps the most important thing is that the resi- compelled to return to Libya to help the return to demo- dents found out that people really do care in a time of cracy and the rule of law. He now serves there as the need. Th at is a powerful and hopeful message for them Minister of Electricity and Renewable Energy. He joins and for us. two other Canadians in the Libyan government: Ali Hussein Al-Sharif, the Minister of Housing, and Awad TECHNOLOGY-FACILITATED PROGRAM Al-Barasi, the Second Deputy Prime Minister. AT SEYCOVE SECONDARY SCHOOL Dr. Mihirig hopes to further trade and cultural ex- change between Libya and Canada, particularly British J. Thornthwaite: Students learn in many different Columbia. ways. Some learn by reading, others by doing, and some Iqra School continues to grow and thrive. Mohammed by technology. Th is is the approach taken by Seycove Sultan Badshah has stepped in as acting chair of the Secondary, where the FLIGHT program is being off ered board, bringing his expertise in human resource man- to students. FLIGHT is a technology-facilitated program agement. Over the past 14 years Mrs. Amal Shokil has based on an open concept of learning. It blends trad- provided strong support for teachers and students alike itional classroom practices with a learning commons as the school's administrative assistant. Faisal Ali is the model, in which group work is combined with individ- well-regarded principal of the Iqra School. ual projects. I ask the House to recognize the achievements of both Th e aim of the program is to engage students with Dr. Mihirig and the Iqra School. school material to enhance their learning skills, helping them become independent, creative and critical think- VANCOUVER INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT ers. Th e FLIGHT program follows the B.C. curriculum AND CEO LARRY BERG in core academic subjects, but it encourages students to also focus on subjects that they are passionate about. It R. Howard: Many fly in and out of Vancouver is the defi nition of personalized learning. By using tech- International Airport every day. YVR is spectacularly nology, students are able to do research, collect informa- designed and welcoming to all tourists and travellers. tion and share their assignments with others, using the It's also a gateway for our economy to continue thriving. Internet in a safe and ethical way. [1400] I recently had the opportunity to visit Seycove and wit- Our government is investing in Pacifi c gateway pro- ness fi rsthand the students' passion for learning. Seycove jects, which include YVR. Governments at all levels have Secondary is doing a great job of putting students fi rst invested over $22 billion in the Pacifi c gateway, a remark- by creating tools that will engage them with their stud- able legacy and a foundation for future growth. ies. I congratulate them on their FLIGHT program and YVR is Canada's second-busiest airport, having wel- look forward to a new generation of motivated students. comed over 17 million passengers in 2012. It has 62 13302 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
airlines connecting people and businesses to 121 destina- Premier's offi ce has gone up quite a bit. You know, includ- tions in Canada, the U.S. and around the world. If that's ed in that are requests for things from other ministries. not impressive enough, it creates over 23,000 jobs for My suspicion — and I think the Privacy Commissioner British Columbians. YVR is expanding its operations and would concur with this — is the reason for that is because services, including becoming the fi rst North American we've changed the way people can request freedom of airport to off er a direct fl ight to China's interior. information. Th ere's a checklist now that people can go I take this opportunity to recognize Larry Berg, YVR's through. So rather than just asking for something from chief executive offi cer, and his many years at the helm of the Ministry of Transportation, they will oft en ask for YVR — and to refl ect on his announced retirement. He the same information also, at the same time, from the has assembled and led a great team, taking YVR to new Premier's offi ce — information that is not kept, stored or heights and building the Pacifi c gateway. YVR under his was ever received by the Premier's offi ce but, nonetheless, leadership has received international awards and global information that people oft en will request. customer service awards, while also continuing to give so much back to the community. His accomplishments Mr. Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition has a sup- are a source of great pride for all British Columbians, plemental. and we thank him for his vision, his persistence and his dedication. A. Dix: Of course, hon. Speaker, we're seeing an in- Larry's accomplishments will be celebrated this Friday, crease in these requests governmentwide. Th e Premier's March 8, at a luncheon coordinated by the Vancouver offi ce is only a leader in this regard. Board of Trade. Over 600 people have bought tickets to Th ere's an alternate suggestion made in the report of celebrate this great British Columbian. Would the House the Privacy Commissioner. It's that it's now, apparently, please join me in wishing him the very best. the policy of the Premier's offi ce not to engage in substan- tive communications via e-mail. Further, it's the policy Oral Questions of the Premier's offi ce, it would appear, to delete such e- mails because they may be transitory. PREMIER'S OFFICE RECORDS AND Does the Premier think that that policy is consist- FREEDOM-OF-INFORMATION REQUESTS ent with an appropriate response to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act? A. Dix: A question to the Premier. In March 2011, [1405] shortly aft er winning the leadership of her party, the Premier said she wanted to "make sure that open gov- Hon. C. Clark: If the member would read through to ernment is something that's a reality, not just something page 27 of the report, he would fi nd the paragraph where that we talk about." the Privacy Commissioner says: "I have found that the Yesterday the Information and Privacy Commissioner government is in compliance with its duty to assist ap- released a report that showed a dramatic increase in the plicants." She goes on to suggest some recommendations number of freedom-of-information requests that come for change, fi ve of which we are accepting and the sixth back with no response of records — in other words, a of which we are considering. blank sheet of paper. In particular, the commissioner But I do want to give an example of some of the re- documented a 50 percent increase of such responses quests that, typically, the Premier's offi ce gets. Th e re- from the Premier's offi ce. How does the Premier justify ceptionist in my offi ce gets a request every month for this disturbing increase? her calendar. She does not keep a calendar. Every month the Premier's offi ce responds, and every month the re- Hon. C. Clark: I have the report from the Privacy quest comes in again. Th at is typical of the kinds of re- Commissioner in front of me. I do want to start by thank- quests that we get. ing her for her diligent work, not just on this but on all Many of the requests that we get are for information the advice she off ers government. that we have. When we have that information, we com- She makes six recommendations. Five of them we have ply with the act. We off er it in as timely a manner as we accepted as a government. Th e sixth one is one that is a can because the value that we believe in is making sure recommendation for something that isn't contained in that government is as open as possible to the citizens that privacy legislation anywhere else in the country, so we this government belongs to. are considering it and thinking about how we'd make that happen. Mr. Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition has a fur- In her report she makes quite a number of comments ther supplemental. and suggestions. But in answer specifi cally to the mem- ber's question, the number of requests that the Premier's A. Dix: What we've seen with respect to the Burnaby offi ce gets for items that are clearly not likely to be in the Hospital issue and other issues, including issues we've Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13303
raised this week around the multiculturalism policy of British Columbia the most open provincial government the government, is a practice in the Premier's offi ce to in Canada." Again we see the pattern of the Premier say- use private e-mails for public business. Th is is something ing one thing but her own offi cials, senior offi cials in her that I'm sure the Premier would suggest is not consist- own offi ce, acting completely diff erently. ent with the act. Th e Premier must lead by example, but in this case, So I'm asking the Premier what her response is to her the administration of that example has fallen far short of offi ce's own presentation to the Privacy Commissioner, the high ideals the Premier likes to talk about. Th at's the which talks about a diff erent practice for that, and sec- message to her colleagues — "Just don't put it in writing" ondly, whether the Premier's offi ce is taking steps to en- — and to the rest of government: "Follow my lead. Keep sure that this doesn't continue to happen. it all out of the public eye." [1410] Hon. C. Clark: Well, I'm pleased that the Privacy My question is to the Premier. What steps will she take Commissioner found that the government is in compli- to lift the veil of secrecy around her offi ce? ance, and we will continue to work hard to be in com- pliance. I know that we will, as I said, also act on the Hon. B. Stewart: I'm also pleased that the commis- recommendations that she has off ered, in considering the sioner's report indicates that the government IAO offi ce sixth one and accepting all fi ve of the others. has very much been in compliance in terms of turn- But I do want the member to just get a fl avour for some, around. in addition to the regular calendar requests that come to Th e number of requests to the Ministry of Citizens' the receptionist in my offi ce and other people who don't Services and the information access branch has grown keep calendars. We have a request, for example, for rec- from over 8,000 last year to a number that's going to top ords regarding the regional telephone town halls on the out at over 10,000 requests this year. As the Premier has HST, including briefi ng notes and scripts for Ministers already stated, it's very easy to make these requests. Kevin Falcon and Blair Lekstrom, contracts, tendering But more importantly, the member opposite mentions notices and master service providers. Th at information about the access to Open Government. Th at information is not in the possession of the Premier's offi ce. It would about those requests is published, and there are literally be located in the Ministry of Finance or, at the time, the 10,000-plus pages that are on line at Open Government Ministry of Transportation. so that people can fi nd out what people are requesting of Th e business case, budget, tendering information, con- government information on line. tracts, work orders, statement of work and approval for the redesign of B.C. government websites — again not Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental. information that's contained in the Premier's offi ce. It's information that would be contained in the Ministry of D. Routley: Yes, if records exist. But if the position Government Services. of the government is not to create records, they won't Documents between January 2011 and August 5, 2011, be found. pertaining to B.C. Ferries funding a training program in Also, in July 2011 the Premier said: "Previously, I think support of Vancouver Shipyards, etc. Th ose are requests governments have sort of assumed that other people's that we frequently get. information belongs to us, and we get to interpret it and Applicants will put them to the Premier's offi ce, oft en disseminate it to people, and I don't think that's right. I not knowing the internal process of government, check- think the information belongs to the public." Aft er all, it's ing it off on a list. It's understandable, absolutely, how it taxpayers' money, and it's taxpayers' information. happens. It's one of the reasons we've made the system Again, we are seeing the Premier's offi ce acting com- much easier for people to be able to use — because we pletely contrary to the Premier's rhetoric, and that is spill- want to make sure that people can get the information ing over into the rest of government. Th e overall increase that belongs to them. But it does also mean that many of within government of non-responsive records has almost the requests that come to the Premier's offi ce, that have doubled since 2008-2009. How does the Premier square also been directed somewhere else, probably wouldn't the record of her offi ce with her rhetoric? have come to the Premier's offi ce in the past. Having said all that, we will certainly respond to the Hon. B. Stewart: I just want to talk a little bit about commissioner's recommendations, and again, I do want the Premier's initiative. Since July of 2011 this govern- to thank her for her hard work. ment has adopted and taken seriously making certain that it is open and transparent and making certain that D. Routley: At the end of 2011 the Premier said: documents are published at Open Government, as I "Open government is about giving people a sense of con- mentioned. fi dence that the government is working for them, not try- But more importantly, just this February in 2011 ing to do something to them." "We are working to make the public sector leadership award for the Institute of 13304 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Public Administration of Canada recognized the British Mr. Speaker: Members. Columbia government for the No. 1 ranking in Canada Th e member has a supplemental. for e-government and open government. As I mentioned, at Data B.C. there are over 3,000 data R. Chouhan: We are not against these awards. We are sets that we've put up on line to allow British Columbians against…. to be able to access information that was not necessarily something that we had put up on line previously. So that Interjections. has created something in the neighbourhood of 30,000 requests in access for information. Mr. Speaker: Take your seat for a second, Member. I do want to talk a little bit about a particular culture. Members. I refer back to the member for Vancouver-Kingsway. Continue, Member. He previously had been in the Premier's offi ce at a time when the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act ac- R. Chouhan: We are against the political shenanigans tually existed. Th e reaction in those particular days was of this government. Th is government is pouring $11 mil- the media was critical about the fact that there were lion into this manufactured Bollywood awards show, but budget cuts. But more importantly, there was also a cul- there is no business plan. We know this government is ture around memos that were backdated. So I'd like to trying to get political benefi ts. However, for example, the ask the member opposite what they would do. webpage for the manufactured award show says B.C.'s state dignitaries will be duly honoured… TIMES OF INDIA FILM AWARDS SHOW AND FREEDOM-OF-INFORMATION REQUEST Interjections.
R. Chouhan: It isn't just the Premier's offi ce that's ob- Mr. Speaker: Members. structing openness and transparency. British Columbians have signifi cant concerns about the Liberal government's R. Chouhan: …on the stage. Will the Minister of manufactured Bollywood awards show. But this govern- Citizens' Services and Open Government ensure all ment is blocking the public from accessing information information related to the manufactured Bollywood about the show by imposing an exorbitant freedom-of- awards show will be made available today for free? information request fee of $2,800. To the Minister of Citizens' Services and Open Hon. P. Bell: I think we just heard a new policy pro- Government: why is this government using fees to hide nouncement from the other side. Th e only problem is information from the public about the Liberal pre- that I don't think that member checked with his leader election manufactured awards show? prior to making that announcement, so it may have been [1415] a bit of a surprise. But think of it. Th e Times of India reaches out to 90 Hon. P. Bell: I'm relatively certain that the member op- million people each and every day through their various posite is going to have the opportunity for a supplemental. publications. Th ey have been in the business of produ- So I hope he takes the opportunity to actually tell us why cing these shows since the 1950s. We've got a great deal he opposes the TOIFA show, because this is going to be at $11 million. It's already sold out. great for British Columbia. Some 200 million people in What I'd like to know is what day that member got in India will see it on the day that it's broadcast. Two repeat line for his tickets. I guarantee you he's going to be there programs, 100 million people in each of those two. So to watch the show. 400 million people in India are going to see what's great about British Columbia. INVESTIGATION INTO PARTISAN It's part of a four-pronged strategy that started when ACTIVITIES RELATING TO our Premier went to India on a trade mission. It was fol- MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH STRATEGY lowed up by opening two new trade offi ces in India. Th is month we're going to be hosting the B.C.-India Global L. Krog: British Columbians are rightly concerned Business Forum, which is going to start really increas- about the investigation of the quick-wins scandal. It's an ing the activity. It's going to be followed up with 400 increasingly secretive government, which the Privacy million people in India watching the show. It's a great Commissioner frankly pointed out — one that refuses to opportunity. We need to build the economy of British commit anything to offi cial channels so as to avoid scru- Columbia. Th at's our position. What is that member op- tiny. Th e scandal reaches from government to caucus to posite's position? the B.C. Liberal Party, and it includes such people as Mr. Bonney and Ms. Haakstad, who left government. Interjections. Will the Premier acknowledge that the investigation Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13305
as laid out does not go far enough and appoint a truly from, no matter what language they speak, is included independent investigator to get to the bottom of this in our democratic process. Th at's the right thing for gov- whole sordid mess? ernment to do. [1420] In an increasingly multicultural society we need to make sure everyone has a chance to have their say, and I Hon. C. Clark: I am happy to answer this question think government needs to reach out to make sure that again for the member, as I did yesterday. Th e answer is that happens. this. Th e most senior person that was involved in this has resigned without severance. Th ere is a review underway GRADUATED LICENSING by a highly respected civil servant. Th at review includes FOR MOTORCYCLES other deputy ministers across government. We will see the results of that review, I hope, in a mat- K. Corrigan: Two years ago the Motor Vehicle ter of days. When we see the results of that review, we Amendment Act was passed, giving government the abil- will take action. ity to bring in a graduated licensing system for motorcyc- Th e ideas expressed in that document were wrong. But lists. Last year this government brought in helmet laws I will say this. I do not think that there is anything wrong and seating regulations and told us it intended to move with the idea of reaching out to multicultural commun- forward with graduated licensing that would restrict new ities. I do not think that there is anything wrong with drivers from buying high-powered bikes. ensuring that every citizen has equal access to their own As another legislative session draws to a close, what has government. the government done to keep the promise of graduated Th e document that was created to try and meet that licensing for motorcycles? end was wrong. Th at is why the deputy is looking into it, reviewing it. We will have the results of that review Hon. S. Bond: As the member opposite would know, very soon. we worked very closely with motorcycle organizations across the province, we met with parents across this prov- Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental. ince who had tragically lost children and were deeply im- pacted by that. We did make changes to helmet laws in L. Krog: It's not quite as soon as the Deputy Premier the province, and we continue to do the work necessary promised last week, when he talked about 24 hours for to make the changes that we committed to. the review to be completed and available. Th ere are a number of things that need to take place We know that the quick-wins scandal involves the — in particular, at ICBC. We are working to make sure Premier's offi ce. Her deputy chief of staff already lost her that we can make a transition as quickly as possible. We job, director of research and others have been involved in the discussions of the scheme, yet the Premier herself are not in the position to do that today, but we continue seems intimately aware of the details of the investigation. to work on the commitment we made, recognizing that She told us yesterday that she knew that Ms. Haakstad public safety and dealing with the issue of safe motor- had been questioned by Mr. Dyble. Th e fact that the cycle behaviour is absolutely critical. Premier, whose offi ce should be a target of this investiga- [1425] tion, is aware of the details tells us that the investigation lacks even the pretence of independence. Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental. My question is to the Attorney General. Will she step in and ensure that a full, thorough, independent and im- K. Corrigan: It has been two years since the act passed partial investigation is conducted so that we can get to and a year — April 2012 — since this government held the bottom of this scandal? a press conference announcing that these changes, in- cluding graduated licences, would soon be in place. But Hon. C. Clark: We will get to the bottom of it. Th at's here we are nearly a year later, and graduating licences why my deputy chief of staff has quit without severance, have apparently slipped from the government agenda. and that is why I have asked the head of the civil service, Th is government has been too busy campaigning instead John Dyble, to convene a committee of senior deputies of governing. Th ey refused to hold a fall session where to make sure we understand what happened so that we this legislation, these changes, could have been brought can correct it — so that we can be accountable for it, take forward. responsibility for it and make sure that we fi x it. Will the Public Safety Minister tell us…. If this gov- But I will say this again: I do not think that the idea ernment commitment to motorcycle safety goes beyond of reaching out to multicultural communities is wrong. photo ops and vague promises with long timelines, why I do not think it is the wrong thing to do to make sure has it stalled when it comes to graduated licensing that that everyone in our society, no matter where they come could save lives? 13306 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Hon. S. Bond: Every member of this House is con- [1430] cerned when young people die on high-powered motor- cycles. To suggest that making changes to helmet laws Hon. S. Bond: I have made it clear that we intend to and looking at graduated licensing programs are a mere proceed with graduated licensing. For the member op- photo op — that is just simply off ensive. I stood in this posite to stand up and take advantage of a situation where House, and I said to the member opposite: "We are con- a family has suff ered grief and loss, when we have met tinuing to put in place a regime that will make that hap- with them in person, when we have shared our sorrows pen." and concerns for British Columbians who have lost loved It has taken longer than we expected, but to suggest for ones…. We intend to continue to put the graduated li- a moment that we met with parents, that we made hel- censing plan in place. met law changes and that we don't care about the safety As I said to the member opposite and others who of British Columbians is off ensive at best and inaccurate. chose to repeat the question, it has taken us, regrettably, longer than we anticipated. Th ere is no intention to back R. Austin: In 2005 Denise Lodge's 21-year-old son, away from that commitment, and I am very sorry if Mrs. Corey, was killed only a day aft er purchasing a high- Lodge and her family have been led to believe that that is powered motorcycle. In the 7½ years since then, Ms. the case. Th at is not accurate. We intend to proceed, and Lodge has lobbied tirelessly for motorcycle safety. She we are continuing to do the important work necessary to has supported this government as they have made bring it into place. promises about meaningful changes. Last spring Ms. Lodge was here at the Legislature when this minister INCLUSION OF FINANCIAL INSTRUMENTS told British Columbians that the government was plan- IN GOVERNMENT ASSET SALE ning to implement a graduated licensing program and it would be in place by the next spring. B. Ralston: Financial instruments owned by the gov- Again, will the minister please tell us when this govern- ernment are a revenue-generating asset and are not sur- ment will fi nally bring in the legislation that could have plus properties. In last year's budget — that's the 2012 saved Corey's life? budget — the Liberal government fi rst set out its plan to hold a fi re sale of public assets in order to pad the pre- Hon. S. Bond: Th ere are few issues or meetings that election budget. At no time since then has this minister are as diffi cult as ones that are held with the families of or a previous minister ever made a reference to surplus people who have lost their children. I've stood in this assets as anything other than real estate. House. We remain committed to bringing the regime Th is year's budget document specifi cally says the assets into place. Th ere are changes that are required at ICBC for sale are surplus property. But thanks to the sharp eyes in order to make that transition occur. We continue to of a Vancouver Sun reporter in the lockup…. He noticed press the agenda, and we continue to consider it a priority. a disparity between two graphs and asked a Finance de- I have met with the Lodge family on numerous oc- partment offi cial what that disparity was. It became ap- casions and other families that have suff ered tragic loss. parent that there was something else on off er in the sale Th at's why we agreed to move forward with helmet laws, of assets — that is, fi nancial instruments. and we'll continue to press to make the changes neces- Why did the Minister of Finance, in presenting the sary to deal with graduated licensing in British Columbia. budget, in every public appearance before and since — until this was pointed out by that reporter — attempt Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental. to hide the fact that fi nancial instruments are for sale as well? R. Austin: Last month Ms. Lodge received a letter advising her that aft er 7½ years of campaigning, this Hon. M. de Jong: To the hon. member: it would be government has shelved its plans to implement the an interesting question and a valid observation if it were graduated licensing program she has been fi ghting for. true. Regrettably, it is not. Th at's perhaps not the mem- Th e letter suggests that the implementation of this idea ber's fault, because whilst he was in a separate lockup, he has been complicated and tells this grieving mother that wasn't at the one at the convention centre where I point- it no longer has any timelines to off er her. Needless to edly and specifi cally said that this amount of money re- say, Miss Lodge is deeply disappointed by this change of lates to property and fi nancial instruments and went on heart. It has been 7½ years since Corey's death, and this to explain that I was limited as to what I could say, spe- government still cannot commit to bringing in changes cifi cally, about those fi nancial instruments. that could save the lives of young people like him. Th e member would have the House believe that some- Will the minister responsible please tell Ms. Lodge how I was trying to keep something secret. I suppose, when she can expect to see this life-saving legislation except for me and 200 journalists and 200 other people put into place? that I specifi cally referred fi nancial instruments to…. I Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13307
guess in that circumstance I did. But they heard it, others Hon. I. Chong: Hon. Chair, we're just looking for it, heard it, and I'm sorry that the hon. member didn't hear because with that section…. It's section 9, so am I to ask it. I'm sorry he didn't comment on it when we had the the member whether he is approving sections 1 through budget debate. 8, and we are on section 9?
[End of question period.] Sections 1 to 8 inclusive approved.
Petitions On section 9.
D. Th orne: I'd like to present a petition signed by 2,215 S. Fraser: In the Agricultural Land Reserve section people from the Riverview Preservation Society that we there's a section (3). It says: "Despite section 2 of the save all remaining Riverview lands in perpetuity for the Agricultural Land Commission Act, section 21 of that use and treatment of the people of B.C. with mental ill- Act does not apply in relation to a subdivision plan of ness and addictions. Tla'amin Lands deposited in the land title offi ce on the Eff ective Date for the purposes of registering those lands Orders of the Day in the name of the Tla'amin Nation." Th at section does not exist…. No section like it exists Hon. M. de Jong: I call committee stage debate on in Yale or Maa-nulth. Now, in Maa-nulth, to be fair, there Bill 4. For the information of members, if and when that was no agricultural land component, so I guess the com- is completed this aft ernoon, thereaft er, committee stage parison would be to the Yale treaty. debate on Bill 5. Th ere are sections (1) and (2). Th ey're identical with [1435] both Yale and Tla'amin, but section (3), under the Tla'amin treaty here in section 9, does not exist under Committee of the Whole House Yale. Could the minister just clarify what that means? It might be obvious, but it's not to me. BILL 4 — TLA'AMIN FINAL AGREEMENT ACT Hon. I. Chong: My apologies. I just want it to be very Th e House in Committee of the Whole on Bill 4; L. clear that it can be somewhat technical in this regard. Reid in the chair. Perhaps I'll just explain to the member in this way. Th ere are certain land parcels currently in the agricul- Th e committee met at 2:38 p.m. tural land reserve, the ALR. Th ey will become Tla'amin lands on the eff ective date. Chapter 3, "Lands," paragraph Hon. I. Chong: Before we begin, I would like to intro- 30 of the fi nal agreement, defi nes those lands as "Former duce staff who are with me here this aft ernoon — to my Agricultural Land Reserve" and "Current Agricultural right, my deputy minister in the ministry, Steve Munro; Land Reserve." to my left , Cory Hererra, who is the senior negotiator also Th e former agricultural land reserve consists of the in our ministry; and then to her left Mark Timmis, who former Tla'amin Indian reserve lands, which are just is legal counsel from the Ministry of Justice. over 1,900 hectares, and the former provincial Crown On section 1. ALR land, which is 471 hectares. On the eff ective date these lands will not be part of the ALR. Th is is what has S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister and her staff for be- been agreed to. ing here. [1445] I have a couple of questions just on defi nitions, if I could put them to the minister. I would note on the def- S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. I think I initions of the ownership, talking about the Tla'amin understand that, although there was a component…. Nation's ownership of land…. I note that in previous Can the minister confi rm that this would just apply for treaties, both Yale and Maa-nulth.… In the Agricultural the 400-plus hectares involved, the portion that's being Land Reserve section, there's a section (3) in the Tla'amin removed from the agricultural land reserve as part of treaty where none exists in the Yale and the Maa-nulth. this treaty? Can the minister comment? I'm trying to read this cor- rectly. I think I have it correct. Hon. I. Chong: Approximately 744 hectares of provin- cial Crown land currently in the ALR will become treaty Th e Chair: Minister, he's referencing the defi nitions land. Approximately 471 hectares of the 744 hectares will section. be removed from the ALR, with the remaining 273 hec- [1440] tares staying in the ALR. 13308 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Th at helps Could the minister just help me and give an explana- clarify. tion of the exact meaning of section 10, what its intent I'd like to ask the question of…. During the negotia- is, please? tions for this land, for the portion that was removed from [1450] the agricultural land reserve to facilitate treaty, was there any conversation…? Is it part of the negotiations to con- Hon. I. Chong: Perhaps the member will recall, from sider, from the government's point of view, to compen- his days on local government, the connection, with re- sate that land with, maybe, other land being placed in the spect to…. When you are a member of a regional district, ALR — considering that the commission has a role to try you are automatically a member of the regional hospital to maintain a certain critical mass of agricultural land? district as well. I'm just wondering if that's been part of the discussion However, in this particular case, it is somewhat diff er- during the negotiations or even outside of those negotia- ent. A First Nation that becomes a member of a region- tions, maybe through various agencies of government. al district is automatically represented on the regional hospital board by virtue of the regional district mem- Hon. I. Chong: First, I should advise the member — bership. Th is section is required because the Tla'amin and I think he does know this — that when lands are fi nal agreement does not require the Tla'amin Nation to removed from the ALR, there is no requirement to re- join the regional district. Th erefore, the fi nal agreement place. However, having said that, the lands that are being must provide for them to participate in the regional hos- removed from the ALR were not farmed lands as such. pital district. Th ey actually were forest lands. As I say, as a result of ne- I think the member will understand — as I say, with gotiations that take place, that determination was made his involvement in local government — what that really, as to what lands could or should be removed. truly, technically means.
S. Fraser: I'm not trying to belabour this point. I'm S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Sorry. Th e aware that the commission…. The act itself dealing wording on this is sometimes confusing, and I appreciate with agricultural land is superseded, certainly, by treaty. the indulgence of the minister and her staff . Regardless of whether the land is specifi cally arable land With that participation on the hospital board, are or such, it's still a reduction in the overall footprint in there taxation implications that go along with that? Th e the agricultural land reserve. So just for clarifi cation, role of a board membership usually involves some form during treaty…. of contribution through taxation or whatever. It doesn't We've seen agricultural land removed before in previ- say specifi cally here, but can the minister inform, please? ous treaties. Certainly, Tsawwassen comes to mind spe- cifi cally. I realize that that's appropriate, that the treaty Hon. I. Chong: I'm trusting, and I make this clarifi - addresses that. But is the minister aware of any dis- cation for the member, that participation in the regional cussions, maybe with other ministries associated with agricultural land, where there is consideration to try to hospital district is mandatory, so that residents on treaty ensure that the land mass does not continually shrink in lands paying hospital district property tax do have rep- the agricultural land reserve? I realize this might be out- resentation on the hospital district board. side the purview of the minister. I'm just asking if she's in essence, those who are residents — occupiers of the aware of anything. land who will be paying property tax — will in fact have those taxes paid to the hospital district board for First Hon. I. Chong: No. Nations occupiers on those lands. If, in fact, they wish to have that directly charged to the owners and then have Section 9 approved. that requisitioned to the hospital district, it can happen. Or the First Nation themselves can make that determin- On section 10. ation, whether they will provide for that requisition to the hospital district board. But in any event, there will S. Fraser: I'm just a little confused on the wording of be funds that are required or requisitioned to the dis- this section, "Tla'amin Nation participation in regional trict board. hospital district." It is somewhat diff erent than the word- ing within the Maa-nulth treaty. N. Simons: My question is to the minister about what, Th ere were issues. I know that the Maa-nulth treaty is perhaps, could delay letters patent from being amend- dealing with fi ve nations, and there are some complex- ed. Is that something that is anticipated, or is this just ities around the role of the regional district and the na- a perfunctory kind of section where it's just in case? tions in the Maa-nulth treaty that would be involved with Maybe the Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural the regional district. Development could enlighten us. Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13309
Hon. I. Chong: Th ere is no expectation that there therefore come into reality. would be a delay on amendment changes to the letters patent. But I would say, because the professional staff Sections 10 and 11 approved. here want to anticipate every possible occurrence, that they have ensured that this section would allow for this On section 12. to take place immediately, without delay. [1455] S. Fraser: Does the Tla'amin Nation have the authority under section 12 to make laws for the direct taxation of S. Fraser: Is there a structure or an order-in-council, non–Sea Island citizens living on Tla'amin lands? I guess an OIC, that's anticipated and that would bring the that's the fi rst question. Tla'amin into the district for this purpose? What's the mechanism? If the minister could inform…. Point of Order
Hon. I. Chong: I believe the letters patent itself would N. Simons: Th is debate refl ects concerns in my con- be provided to include that. As I say, letters patent would stituency. Every member of this House represents people be amended, and if there were a delay, it would be in this province. I'm just wondering if there's a rule or deemed amended forthwith. some ruling about whether or not a member of this House should be listening to noise-suppression devices S. Fraser: If I could just follow up on this a bit, if the while a debate on a First Nation treaty is taking place. letters patent is the structure that's used for this purpose, [1500] when would that occur? Th is has to get through this House. It also has to go to the federal Parliament. Would Th e Chair: I thank the member for his point of order. the letters patent apply with ratifi cation of this bill here We will take the issue under advisement. in the Legislature, or is it aft er it's hopefully ratifi ed in Ottawa? Debate Continued
Hon. I. Chong: As the member will likely know, as Hon. I. Chong: Again, I would say that this agreement he's participated in these debates with other agreements, is similar to the Yale and Maa-nulth fi nal agreements. there will be parties that have to agree on the eff ective Th ey have similar provisions. Th is is not about direct date, which is when the implementation of the treaty taxation. It is about having a section that deals with a tax would then take place. Upon that date, that's when the treatment agreement that sets out and lays out how the treaty would therefore be implemented, and the letters Tla'amin Nation, Canada and British Columbia enter into patent at that time would likely be a part of the agree- that agreement on an eff ective date. It addresses the treat- ment going forward. But it is similar to other agreements ment of the Tla'amin Nation under various taxes, which where parties are aff orded the opportunity to agree as to include income taxes, sales and other consumption taxes, when the eff ective date will be. but it's not an ability for direct taxation as such. It could be a year. It could be two. Generally, we have seen that it has taken two years, as with Tsawwassen S. Fraser: I think I got that. For clarifi cation, section 12 when it was ratifi ed in 2007. Th e implementation eff ect- does not provide the Sliammon Nation with the author- ive date, I think, was 2009, so it did take two years. ity to make laws for direct taxation. Th at's not the intent. Did I misread this? S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister. Just so I have it cor- Th e questions have come to me about whether or not rect, the letters patent would be enabled as a tripartite this would enable taxation to occur for non-Sliammon agreement. Th e federal government has to ratify this, members that would happen to be living within the treaty so it would be in the implementation of the treaty that lands. Th at may or may not happen. It's a hypothetical a date would be approved for the letters patent to apply situation, I suppose, so just more clarity if I could. in this case? Hon. I. Chong: Perhaps the best way to clarify sec- Hon. I. Chong: I'm sorry if I have confused the mem- tion 12 for the member is that this section provides for ber. What happens is that upon the passage of this legis- the Tla'amin Nation, the government, to be treated in a lation…. He knows that the federal government will also similar fashion to other local governments. Other local have to pass their legislation, aft er which time each party governments are not taxed by provincial governments will work towards when all the aspects of the treaty and and the federal government, and it would be the same the fi nal agreement can be put in place. Th ey would agree tax treatment. If there were taxes that the federal or prov- to, based on the time that they require, the eff ective date incial governments levied on local governments, so, too, of which, then, the treaty would be implemented and would that tax treatment be applicable to Tla'amin, be- 13310 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
cause they would be another level of government. It therefore allows it to be changed in the event that taxes Th e area that the member is referring to is for the are changed. Tla'amin Nation for dealing with taxation of their mem- Th at's why it's not a treaty or a land claims agreement. bers, their residents. Th at is dealt with in the treaty in It is an agreement that allows and sets out the fact that other sections. there is an agreement that sets out how the First Nations [1505] government is to be taxed. I know that it may appear complicated, but it is about S. Fraser: If there are non–Sliammon First Nations the First Nation government, and it's similar to what has who are residents within the treaty area and there are been done for Yale and Tsawwassen. tax implications, could they apply to non–Sliammon First Nations? I apologize again if the minister has an- Section 12 approved. swered that question already. I just haven't quite got my head around this. On section 13.
Hon. I. Chong: Th is is about the taxing parts of the S. Fraser: I'd like to thank your deputy and his staff for government, the Tla'amin Nation, with respect to its re- the briefi ng that the member for Powell River–Sunshine lationships with other jurisdictions, other senior levels Coast and myself were able to attend. I just wanted to get of government — not unlike what local governments are. that on the record. Although it might not seem that we've As I say, this is about the tax treatment of the Tla'amin been briefed, we have been briefed. I'm sorry. We're go- Nation. ing over some of this stuff again, and new questions have With respect to the taxation of members and non- come up in the meantime. Actually, for those watching, Tla'amin members, that is dealt with in other sections we're looking for clarifi cation on record for questions that in the treaty. Th ose are negotiations that still take place have been put to me, as critic. I want to make sure that with Canada and the provincial government. Likely there people understand that. will be a negotiation to develop or provide for some con- In the ministry briefi ng there was a comment on this tractual agreements specifi cally for those, especially non- section 13 that "we're waiting for the Cohen decision" member residents. regarding the fi sh farms. Th at was discussed in a recent briefi ng. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister. I got it this time, I Can the minister inform us as to the purpose of wait- think. ing for Cohen? How's that going to play out? So this would be at a later date, presumably aft er the implementation of the treaty has begun, aft er it's gone Hon. I. Chong: Perhaps the best way to provide clari- through the federal parliament. I'm getting nods here. If fi cation for the member is to advise that the negotia- I could just get a confi rmation on the record, that would tions for the Tla'amin fi nal agreement had begun prior be great. to Cohen. Th erefore, Canada agreed that the Tla'amin could include fi sh because the provisions were agreed Hon. I. Chong: Th at is correct, and that's why imple- to before Cohen began — as opposed to what has oc- mentation or the eff ective date is sometimes years away, curred with others, who were not able to negotiate that because all the parties have to agree to fulfi l particular until Cohen was complete. But this was occurring prior obligations that they have, and that could certainly be to Cohen having been initiated. one of those. S. Fraser: So I have this clear, the recommendations to N. Simons: My question has to do with when a tax be coming out of the Cohen inquiry on the Fraser River treatment agreement is not a tax treatment agreement, sockeye…. Th ey will, at a later date, inform this section or not part of the act. 13 on the harvest documents? Did I get that wrong or Here in section 4, as provided in paragraph 82 of chap- get that right? ter 2 of the Tla'amin fi nal agreement, the tax treatment [1515] agreement does not form part of the fi nal agreement. Where is its legislative authority, then, if not in the fi nal Hon. I. Chong: I think what's confusing is that with agreement? Cohen in process, the diffi culty was that no one was [1510] able to negotiate the matters concerning fi sh. Th erefore, it meant that we could not proceed in getting the fi nal Hon. I. Chong: I'm trying to make this clear for every- agreement to this stage. I guess that's the best way to de- body who's interested in section 12. A treaty does require scribe it. a tax treaty agreement, but outside the treaty, that's set- We wanted to be able to continue to proceed with get- ting out how a First Nation government is in fact taxed. ting the fi nal agreement, and Canada agreed that we Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13311
could continue to do that outside of Cohen until Cohen Hon. I. Chong: Canada issues all licences that are was complete. Now that Cohen has been completed, we needed. We don't, as a province, issue those licences. will now be in a position to negotiate fi sh. If we had had to wait to negotiate, we would not be here with this agree- S. Fraser: I didn't see it in here, but for what fi sheries ment now. in particular?
S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. As the Hon. I. Chong: I'm advised that it's in the treaty. For minister noted, the waters bounding the Sliammon ter- the benefi t of the member, the allocations for chinook ritory…. I've looked at the maps. Th ey're very close, if salmon, coho salmon, chum salmon, sockeye salmon, not right on some of the Fraser River sockeye migra- pink salmon, rockfi sh and ling cod, other groundfi sh, tion routes. Of course, there are other shellfi sh and other herring, prawn and crab, and sea cucumbers. marine species, too, that make their homes within the Sliammon territory. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Was there Th e fi nal decision of the Cohen Commission — did it any provision made specifi cally for aquaculture — shell- infl uence the fi sheries or any other part of the treaty, or fi sh or fi nfi sh? will it? I guess that's the other piece of that. Hon. I. Chong: Again, I'm advised that only the Hon. I. Chong: Again, this treaty was negotiated be- Tla'amin Nation may apply to the Crown for shellfi sh fore the Cohen report, and as a result there had been aquaculture tenures, in respect of the foreshore of the some allocations, fi sh allocations, for Tla'amin. Again, Ahgykson. Canada had agreed that we were able to continue to move forward and, I guess, accept those fi sh allocations as op- S. Fraser: Th ank you to the minister for that. posed to waiting until Cohen was complete. With current changes in legislation based on court As a result of this treaty being negotiated before Cohen, decisions…. Which Crown are we talking about here? and now that the report has been provided for, we don't Th ere is a signifi cant role now that is being taken by the see anything in the Cohen Commission, in their recom- federal government in aquaculture that wasn't before. It mendations, that would confl ict with what had been with was under the purview of the province. Now really the the negotiated agreement in terms of the allocation. only role for the province is the actual letting of the ten- Had we waited, it might have meant that we would ure, the water lease or whatever. have to negotiate these amounts of fish allocations. [1525] Canada essentially gave us the opportunity to continue I guess a couple of questions. Th e Tla'amin — will they on. Now that Cohen is out, the negotiated allocations apply to the province if they wish to set up a lease, or can would likely stand, because we don't see anything in they govern that themselves? Th ere's a federal compon- those recommendations that would not permit for that to ent to this, but I'll just leave that question and wait for happen. We've in essence been able to continue to move the answer. along and have this treaty get to this stage today. Hon. I. Chong: When the member asked about the S. Fraser: Th is is an important issue, so I'm just try- tenures, I wanted to respond that the aquaculture tenures ing to…. It's wise to move this along. Th ere is the Cohen which Tla'amin Nation can apply for would be directed inquiry, and there are other issues that come up all the to the federal government, when I referred to the Crown. time. Certainly on the federal mandate, fi sheries are oft en Th e aquaculture tenures would have to be applied to a roadblock to proceeding with treaties. I get all that, but the federal government as the Crown. However, to re- am I clear? Have there been fi rm allocations made now quest a foreshore lease or licence, that would still be that will not change, regardless of Cohen? Is this is all under provincial jurisdiction. done? When this goes through the federal Parliament, the allocations will stand. Th ese discussions are not to be S. Fraser: If you want to be an aquaculturalist in the reopened because of Cohen or any other reasons. province — if you want to set up an oyster farm, for in- stance — there are a whole bunch of referral agencies. Hon. I. Chong: Yes, I am advised that the fi sh negotia- Th e applicant has to spend a fair amount of money. Th ey tions at Tla'amin are now complete. have to advertise in the Gazette federally. Th ere are a number of requirements that go along with that. S. Fraser: Th anks for that clarifi cation. On the licences, Would all those requirements be applied to the though, are these licences purchased from Canada or Tla'amin Nation post-treaty? Would they have to still from the open market? How does that come about for do all that? that allocation for the licences? [1520] Hon. I. Chong: Yes. 13312 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
S. Fraser: Then the fees associated with the tenur- S. Fraser: Th anks for the answers on this. Is there any ing — the lease agreements, those sorts of things. Th ere provision…? Is there a mechanism for a non-Tla'amin are annual fees that go along with that too. Th en there's proponent to apply for water lease tenures within the reporting-out requirements for fi sh farms that have to treaty settlement lands? Is that something that has been report out about disease outbreaks and that. Do the fees perceived or even considered? Is that possible? Is there a go…? Are they required, fi rst of all, for lease fees, tenure mechanism for that? fees, and are there the same requirements for monitor- ing and such? [D. Black in the chair.]
Hon. I. Chong: Th e answer is yes, in accordance with Th e Chair: Minister. federal and provincial laws and procedures. Hon. I. Chong: Th ank you and welcome, hon. Chair. N. Simons: My question has to do with marine pro- Th rough you to the member, I'm trying to envision where tected areas, such as rockfi sh conservation zones and the he's trying to seek clarifi cation, so I'm hoping I respond like. Does the Tla'amin First Nation have any authority appropriately. Th ere is no obligation for Tla'amin to pro- to establish such protected areas, and what is the impact vide tenures on its treaty lands. It may if it chooses, but of the existing ones within the Tla'amin traditional ter- there is no obligation for them to do so. ritory? [1535]
Hon. I. Chong: The Tla'amin Nation — their abil- Section 13 approved. ity to protect would be on treaty settlement lands. Th ey can make determinations as to what parts of their treaty On section 14. settlement lands they wish to provide protection for. Th at S. Fraser: Now we've moved into the Forest Act ten- is the authority that they have. ures section of the treaty. Is the approach taken with these tenures, the Forest Act tenures, comparable to past treat- N. Simons: Is that something that the Tla'amin First ies under the B.C. treaty process? Nation can do without consultation or on their own in- itiative, or does that require some sort of dialogue with Hon. I. Chong: Yes, it's the same policy as all previ- the federal-provincial government? ous treaties. [1530] S. Fraser: Is it anticipated this will be a smooth tran- Hon. I. Chong: Because treaty settlement lands will sition? For example, are there concerns of, maybe, dis- be lands that are governed by that jurisdiction, that be- putes arising from other holders of referred agreements? ing the Tla'amin Nation, they will have the right to de- Should this move pretty smoothly? Has there been any termine what parts of their lands they wish to protect, discussion of confl icts or anything like that? not unlike what we do can do here in British Columbia when we designate parts of our province which we wish Hon. I. Chong: To the member, who is asking whether to protect. this could be a smooth transition, I would submit that it Tla'amin will also be given the opportunity or have should be, yes. Th e impacted third parties have all been the ability to protect certain areas within Tla'amin treaty consulted, so we do expect to be able to move this fairly settlement lands. quickly along.
N. Simons: If, for example, the occasion arose that S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. the federal government embarked on some strategy to Will the annual allowable cut…? Is this a determina- protect certain fi sheries areas, if they were interested tion, from here on in, within the nation? Is there a chief in doing so within the traditional territory — on treaty forester that does this? For the record, how is that, then, settlement lands, I guess — is there a mechanism through determined? which the parties will negotiate and potentially cooper- ate on in terms of designating these areas? Hon. I. Chong: Once the treaty does take eff ect the Tla'amin First Nation decides on the annual allowable Hon. I. Chong: Again, I'm advised that Canada must cut on their treaty settlement lands. consult with Tla'amin if their proposed action would, in fact, aff ect the Tla'amin treaty rights. So there is an obli- S. Fraser: Th e Crown, the province, has the authority gation to consult if, in fact, any actions that the federal over forest lands in British Columbia. Is that authority government were to take would aff ect their treaty rights. now ceded to the Tla'amin Nation in total? I guess, an- Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13313
swer that question if you can, and then I'll go on to an- I understand that they are turned over fee simple. Th at's other question. part of the agreement. Th ey're essentially private lands, so the Tla'amin people can do as they see right on the land. Hon. I. Chong: Yes, on treaty lands. But is there any potential to apply to the province for assistance? Was there any consideration in the negotia- S. Fraser: Anticipating…. In this House we have a tions if…? A part of a forestry plan in the province now bill before us — Bill 8, I guess, is the number. It's dealing usually includes provisions for replanting, for silviculture, with a potentially signifi cant change to forestry in British so that you can have that rotation. Were there any provi- Columbia. It's allowing some pretty big powers to the sions put into the treaty for that, or was that negotiation minister to convert volume-based tenures over to area- not considered? based. Th at's one of many changes that are being brought forward in a bill that's before us right now. I don't know Hon. I. Chong: Again, I want to stress that treaty whether we'll get to it or not. settlement lands will be treated as private lands. [1540] [1545] Does an act like that…? Would it have any impact on The Tla'amin First Nation will have jurisdiction. the forestry agreement within the treaty? Obviously, in areas of forest health and things like fi re suppression, there is, I would expect, an obligation to Hon. I. Chong: No, it wouldn't. discuss and ensure that those policies are well respect- ed and useful. But at the end of the day, as the member S. Fraser: In the future, if the province makes chan- has acknowledged, these are lands which are fee simple, ges to forestry acts, if new science comes out, is there which will be available to the Tla'amin Nation to man- a provision…? If the province wants to bring in a new age as they feel they should, because they will be deemed policy that will create healthier forests in some way in to be private lands. the province, is there a provision through the treaty to work government-to-government to deal with that, or is S. Fraser: Th ere will be a question from the member that just dealt with separately, then? for Cariboo North on the forestry issues. I guess I'm wondering: is it now siloed? Will each na- I'd like to thank the minister for that clarifi cation. She tion have total autonomy over forest policy throughout did mention fi re suppression. Again, there are recom- the province and provincial policy not apply at all? I'm mendations that have been made for communities in the just wondering: are we going to end up with a patchwork province. Th ere's the previous Filmon report, following of forest policies throughout the province that might some pretty devastating wildfi res on the land base. make it diffi cult to have an overarching plan? Again, are there provisions, anything anticipated with- in the treaty or any resources that the province would be Hon. I. Chong: To the member, I suspect he under- able to bring to bear to deal with risk zones for forest fi res, stands that treaty settlement lands…. Once the treaty wildfi res and such? If a wildfi re were to occur in or near comes into eff ect and treaty settlement lands are estab- Tla'amin territory, is there any kind of global budget that lished, in this particular case with the Tla'amin Nation, can be accessed to address those risks to the community? those lands will be lands owned by the Tla'amin Nation. Th ey will be treated like private lands. To that extent, if Hon. I. Chong: With respect to wildfire suppres- private land owners are permitted to have whatever poli- sion and control, on the eff ective date the parties will cies they wish, so too would the Tla'amin Nation, because be required to enter into a wildfi re suppression agree- it is treated like private land. ment. Th at will set out how the cost incurred by British However, there are always provisions to provide or to Columbia for wildfi re control on Tla'amin lands — for off er and have a healthy exchange of information, espe- wildfires that originate on Tla'amin lands — will be cially when it comes to forest health. I would expect that shared by British Columbia, Canada and the Tla'amin if there are issues regarding forest health, the Tla'amin Nation. Nation would want to seek provincial guidance and in- Th ere will be an agreement, and they will set out those formation, and the province would, I would expect, want parameters and the costs associated with it. Th at's to take to provide that information to ensure that we do have a place on the eff ective date. healthy forest. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Th at clarifi - S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. I guess, I cation was very helpful. Just one last question from me on mean…. In some instances there are provisions made on this forestry issue — before I turn it over to the member Crown land for silviculture and replanting and that sort for Cariboo North — on the value of the land, the tim- of thing so that we have the forests forever. Were there ber value of the land. any provisions made within the treaty as the lands are…? For those watching, the compensation in the treaty is 13314 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
in a tripartite agreement. Th e land portion is from the Hon. I. Chong: Yes, those are defi nitely factors that province. Th e federal government is responsible for es- are all considered. sentially matching dollars to the value of the land. So it's based on, to some extent, the resources on the land. B. Simpson: Some questions on part 14, the sections How signifi cant was the forestry value in the calcula- from 7 on, with respect to pre-existing licensees in the tion of the amount of land that was designated through interest area. Having not seen maps for this, I wonder if treaty — and, of course, the compensation, the cash com- the minister could inform us if there are any tree farm ponent from the federal government? licences being impinged and if there are any replaceable [1550] forest licences being impinged as a result of this treaty settlement. Hon. I. Chong: Th e province provided about 6,406 [1555] hectares of land, and I think that's in the agreement the member will see. In so doing, we did certainly con- Hon. I. Chong: I'm advised that there was only one sider the forestry value on the land. Therefore, as a forest-harvesting tenure that needed to be dealt with, consequence, Canada, through negotiations, made a de- with respect to this treaty. Th erefore, a portion of the tree termination and is contributing just over $45½ million forest licence, TFL 39, will become the Tla'amin lands. to provide their matching share. Through the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations…. Th ey will be the ministry in dis- S. Fraser: A follow-up on that. Th ank you for the an- cussion with the holders of TFL 39, and they will nego- swer, but is that based on a formula — the value of hem- tiate how to compensate for that. But there was only the lock at the day on the open market? How is that forest one that I'm aware of. I think in the past there have been, value, the value of the land, determined under the treaty but while this treaty was being negotiated, this was the formula — in this case, with the Tla'amin First Nation? only existing forest licence that was still in place that we needed to accommodate. Hon. I. Chong: To the member, I guess the short an- swer is that there is no formula, because these are, as he B. Simpson: In this case, as far as the minister is aware, can appreciate, treaty negotiations that occur around the tree farm licence 39…. province in many tables that are happening. If you try to I also asked about replaceable forest licences. Are there establish a formula, it would have to take into considera- any replaceable forest licensees in the timber supply area tion a variety of factors. that will be impinged by this? On that basis, when the parties come to negotiate, cer- tainly they do consider the local situation. Th ey take a Hon. I. Chong: I'm advised no. look at the availability of land, take a look at whatever op- portunities are available. Obviously, lands in urban areas are diff erent than lands in more rural-remote areas, and B. Simpson: What area of tree farm licence will be im- the availability of land in the more rural-remote areas is pacted? How big is the area, on a proportional basis, to very diff erent than those in the urban lands. the tree farm itself? So there isn't a formula that negotiators have when they walk into a room and when they start discussing. Hon. I. Chong: Hon. Chair, we don't have that specifi c Th ey take a look at a variety of factors. Based on that, the calculation or fi gure for the member, but we can certain- value is then determined, which all parties would then ly get that to him, if he is willing to…. We can provide agree to. Th at's how the determination is then made. it to him aft er the debate, unless he is wishing to have that now. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for this. I have had questions raised, so for those watching this, B. Simpson: Just for the record, if the gross numbers for clarity, the timber value of the land has an impact on are there in terms of areas in the timber-harvesting land the amount of land. If the timber has a high value on base that are now going to be removed from the timber- the land, presumably a smaller footprint of land would harvesting land base, whether in the timber supply area be made available. If the timber values on the land were or tree farm area, what is the actual size of the removal? relatively low, the footprint could be larger on the land. As the treaty states, they become fee simple lands, and I realize there might be other values — mining or it's important, I think, for British Columbians to under- whatever — but if we're just talking about this one re- stand what this does to impinge on the tree farm licence source, there is a direct impact on the value of the size of and/or the timber supply area. So what is the area that the land portion of the settlement and the value of the will be removed from the timber supply available in this resources on the land, including the timber. Just for clar- particular part of the province? ity, am I correct there? [1600] Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13315
Hon. I. Chong: Sorry for the delay. We're just trying to sion stage where, in removing that tenure, we're looking make sure we have the accurate numbers here. at the discussion with respect to providing that compen- The member may not have heard me earlier in re- sation for them. sponse to the member for Alberni–Pacifi c Rim when I For the benefi t of the member, wherever you identify indicated that in the fi nal agreement, British Columbia lands that you need to make available for treaties, I would provided about 6,406 hectares — just over 6,400 hectares say that clearly the negotiators would know that nobody — of land. Of that, a portion of the tree farm licence, TFL wants to be surprised at the last moment. Everybody 39 — 600 hectares. I'm advised that it represents less than would like to have an opportunity to discuss, to negoti- 1 percent of TFL 39. ate and to even take a look at whether those are the ap- propriate lands or whether the size or amount will do or B. Simpson: So some process issues of how this works. whether it should be larger. I'm advised that negotiators TFL 39 is held by Western Forest Products. It's a rea- are, I guess, consistently doing that when they're deal- sonably large tree farm licence, one of those original ones ing with treaties. that appears to have been given in order to get some pri- vate lands under control and the mill built. B. Simpson: Just for the clarifi cation…. I don't know Th e question that we have in front of us with another if anybody is watching this or not, but clarifi cation for bill in front of this House is: what private rights are ac- Hansard, too, because people do read the record. corded to a particular company when they are given a In any given operating area in the province where tree farm licence — a prescribed area of the land base, a treaties are being discussed, there are two diff erent por- map drawn and exclusive rights in that land base? tions, if you will, of the timber harvesting land base, Some of the restrictions that then are imposed on the which is the Crown's area that they believe is available for Crown are the Crown's ability to do things like protect- companies to cut — get reasonable commercial volume ed areas, to put other values on top of that land base. In of timber and then take it to processing facilities. my area, for example, caribou habitat came aft er a tree One is tree farm licences — and I do want to come farm licence, and it becomes a dialogue between the back to the process, then, of dialogue around compen- companies. sation — and the other is what we call the timber sup- Th en, of course, treaty. When there are any treaty dis- ply area. Th e timber supply area is where there is this cussions going on and any treaty lands are expressed as discussion about volume-based licences being issued as desirable by the First Nations in tree farm licences, then opposed to a tree farm licence, which is a specifi c and there is a third party that the issues have to be discussed exclusive area given to a company to manage, suppos- with. edly for better forest management into the future, to at- From a process perspective, I wonder if the minister tract investment, etc. could speak to how Western Forest Products was brought Is there a diff erent dialogue that the government has into the discussion. When were they brought into the to have with companies that operate in the timber sup- discussion? Have they been brought into the discussion? ply area where there are only volume licences? Is there a Or are these decisions made and then the discussion is requirement for the Crown to sit and have conversations had with the company? What's the process of going to a with licensees who are operating in the timber supply holder of a tree farm licence and saying: "We're thinking area and only have a volume licence? about removing some of that tree farm licence in order [1610] to settle treaty"? [1605] Hon. I. Chong: I hope this is the answer he is look- ing for. Aft er land has been identifi ed and removed from Hon. I. Chong: To the member, I understand he's the timber supply area for the treaty lands, the chief seeking clarifi cation with respect to process. I guess, to forester will then determine if the AAC, the annual al- be fair, this would be a process that would be, generally lowable cut, needs to be adjusted. Obviously, if you are speaking, followed in what the negotiators…. Th at's why removing something, then the adjustment would gener- there are negotiators at the table. ally be whether it needs to be reduced. If so, then British In this particular case, Western Forest Products has Columbia would be in a position to provide compensa- been consulted throughout the negotiations. I under- tion to those third parties on the remaining TSA. stand ten years' worth of discussions have taken place. So I'm not sure if that was what he was looking for, but I they have been advised, have been made aware all along hope that helps. that there would be lands likely from their tree farm li- cence that would be required for the treaty settlement B. Simpson: You've gone to some of the compensation land. Th eir consultation…. Aft er they had been made aspects of it. What I'm trying to understand is the relative aware and advised over the course of those past ten years, diff erence between the rights of holding a particular for- we have identifi ed those lands. We're now in the discus- est licence, because it is in the public domain that we're 13316 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
having that kind of debate just now. As you convert from because you're excluding areas from the tree farm licence a volume-based licence to an area-based licence, what — the fundamental diff erence between a land-based or rights does that accord? area-based tenure and a volume-based tenure. From a process perspective, in terms of the dialogue Th e trigger in the volume-based timber supply area that would be going on with licensees in the timber sup- is whether or not the annual allowable cut adjustment ply area…. Th ey don't have exclusive rights. Th ey have impacts the licensees. If it doesn't, there's no compen- rights to a volume, and then if that area is impinged on a sation. If it does, then it depends on the nature of the large enough scale, the chief forester would then reset the licence whether there is compensation or not. It's a dif- annual allowable cut. If the annual allowable cut comes ferent process. down signifi cantly, then he'd have to talk to those licence [1620] holders about loss of volume. On a tree farm licence, the minute you start creating Depending on the nature of their licence, that may or exclusion areas, it's my understanding that that auto- may not trigger compensation. Th at's my understanding matically triggers some form of compensation. I wonder of how that process works. But on a tree farm licence we if the minister could clarify that in tree farm licence areas, have to treat the holder of that licence as if they've got when you exclude areas of a tree farm licence for treaty, private land–like rights, because it's a mapped area. would there ever be a case that compensation would not Th e dialogue that we have to have with the tree farm be paid for that? licence holder…. We know we're heading to compensa- tion in some form — it's a given — the minute that you Hon. I. Chong: I'm just going back through some of exclude that land. the responses I gave to the member earlier. I had indi- [1615] cated that aft er land is removed from the timber supply Just to be clear, what I'm asking for is: when are the area, the chief forester will determine if the AAC needs volume licensees brought into the process if it looks like to be adjusted. the timber supply area is going to be encroached on? If it does need to be adjusted, if it has to be reduced, in When do they actually have to come to the table? When that case there could be compensation provided. But if are they involved? in fact the chief forester makes a determination that the removal of lands from a TSA does not in fact reduce the Hon. I. Chong: To the member, if I can understand AAC for the remaining lands that are there, there would where he is trying to seek clarifi cation with respect to not necessarily be compensation. So, too, could the situa- the tree farm licence holders and the timber supply area, tion be for a tree farm licence. Th e member asked if ever I can say this. I'm advised that the consultation and the the lands could be removed without compensation. process for consultation is done in exactly the same way, It could also, in eff ect, take place where those lands whether you are a tree farm licence holder or on the tim- were deemed to be non-productive, were not contrib- ber supply area. Th e compensation is also provided on uting to the AAC, and they were part of the tree farm the same basis. licence, yes, they could in fact be removed without com- Th e negotiators in our ministry and other ministries…. pensation. We work across ministries, in fact, with local govern- ments, with stakeholders, to try and fi nd, as I say, the B. Simpson: Unless, of course, there are roads and best possible outcome. But in essence, they are treated bridges and infrastructure that are going through there in the same fashion. that require compensation, because that's the diff erent part of a tree farm licence. It's area-based. B. Simpson: I'm not sure that is accurate, so let's try You may have a road that goes through an area. I mean, and explore this a little bit more. I don't know why First Nations, unless there are some Th e reality is that compensation may not be triggered traditional activities on the land base, would want non- at all on a timber supply area. If the land base encroach- productive land. But given that they might want some es on there, if it doesn't encroach necessarily too far into non-productive land, there could still be improvements the timber-harvesting land base, if there's not a big ad- on that land that they would get compensated for. Th e justment in the annual allowable cut, then there is no same would not hold true if unproductive land was taken compensation required, because the annual allowable out of the timber supply area where the improvements cut doesn't come down suffi ciently. All the licensees can were there, because we wouldn't compensate, necessarily, achieve their licence objectives, so there is no compen- for those improvements. sation. I think we need to be crystal-clear here that what hap- My understanding is that it's fundamentally diff erent pens is that there's a diff erent form of compensation. In when it comes to a tree farm licence. Th e minute you fact, it's in this act in front of us, where it explicitly names draw treaty lands and exclude any portions of the tree a tree farm licence as a special designation for compensa- farm licence, that automatically triggers compensation tion. It's right in the sections that we're dealing with, as Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13317
opposed to naming volume-based licences. that ends up reading this transcript or is watching, the ac- Let me come to this specifi c case. As the minister indi- tual process for compensation is laid out in section 14 of cated, there has been a long dialogue with Western Forest the fi nal agreement act. Starting in subsection (7), it lays Products about the potential removal of lands from this out a process. Th at process ultimately ends up in regula- TFL, TFL 39. Th e minister has indicated it's only 1 per- tions established by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, cent of the total land base. What is the expectation on or cabinet, that will guide the process of compensation. the part of the government, based on past experience, of What I'm trying to determine, though, and what the the potential compensation from the Crown to Western minister didn't answer is that while FLNRO may have Forest Products? What's the range of compensation that the lead, treaties have a cost to government. Th ere is a might occur there? Treasury Board submission, as I understand it, associat- [1625] ed with treaty. I just need clarifi cation from the minister. When we know that we're going to trigger compensa- Hon. I. Chong: Th at is still being negotiated. When I tion, regardless of who leads, it is a cost to the taxpayer indicated 1 percent, it was the less than 1 percent of the writ large. It is a Treasury Board decision. TFL licence, not of the entire land base of the treaty. Is there any quantifi cation of the range of what the potential cost to government will be of compensation B. Simpson: I understand that 1 percent of the tree for deleted lands from tree farm licences or because of farm licence is what the minister had indicated. So what annual allowable cuts being re-established? Is a ballpark is the process, then, for determining that? We're going to fi gure given in the treasury submission? be giving assent to a treaty here that does actually desig- [1635] nate those lands as treaty lands. Th ose lands become, in eff ect, fee simple–like lands. Th is 1 percent will be re- Hon. I. Chong: If the member is requesting that I pro- moved from the TFL. vide him with a ballpark fi gure or a fi gure, I would have When the government goes to Treasury Board for to tell him today that I'm not able to do so, because to do treaty, they have to have some sense of what the cost to so could, in fact, fetter the negotiations that need to take government must be for the treaty. Again, I look to the place with respect to the compensation. minister to correct my understanding if it's wrong. Th ese things are considered, as I say, with the Ministry Usually what triggers moving into an AIP leading to of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations in a treaty is that Canada comes to the table with cash; the charge of the negotiations. Th ey certainly are aware and government comes to the table with land. And the bal- have been aware, as we have done other treaties in the ance between cash and land has to be somewhat equiva- past. But again, if he's requesting a fi gure today, to pro- lent and has to take into consideration other treaty vide that would and could hamper and be a detriment to settlements, either past or pending in the future. That submission has to go to Treasury Board be- the negotiation that takes place. cause there's still a valuation on the land aspect of that. How does the minister make any projection to Treasury B. Simpson: I wasn't asking the minister for the ac- Board about the compensation component of that land? tual, explicit fi gure. I was asking if, in the presentation, If there's compensation required to forest licensees or because submissions to Treasury Board are cost-based range licensees or other licensees, how do you make that submissions…. You're saying: "Th is is what we think it's projection to Treasury Board? Do you do it during the going to cost us to settle this treaty." treaty process, or does treasury just sort of deal with it If there was no tree farm licence on the land base that aft er a treaty is settled? was triggering compensations for excluding from there, [1630] if there was no impingement on the annual allowable cut, then there wouldn't be cash required from the province Hon. I. Chong: Firstly, I want to confi rm with the for that compensation. But depending on the nature of member that he is aware that the Ministry of Forests, the land base that's being asked for, especially if we cre- Lands and Natural Resource Operations is the ministry ate more tree farm licences that cover the large portion that will be responsible for completing the negotiations of the interior of the province, it could trigger larger and for compensation. larger settlements. Having said that, I want to advise, then, that the com- Th at's all I'm asking. As part of the package in front of pensation certainly will be a negotiated amount. It is Treasury Board, does the submission come with a range guided by the legislative framework in this bill and then kept to Treasury Board — not put in the public domain subject to government approval before any payment is — of what the costs might be to government because of made. the deletions or because of the impact on the annual al- lowable cut? B. Simpson: Again, just for the edifi cation of anybody [1640] 13318 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Hon. I. Chong: I'll try this one more time. As I indi- B. Simpson: Th e minister isn't being obtuse. I mean, cated, Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations it is a progressive series of answers that are being given have been authorized to negotiate compensation accord- as I try to understand what's going on, because this is a ing to the legislation — as the member has rightly indi- topic of discussion just now in terms of what tree farm cated — in section 14(7), where we start. licences do relative to privatization of the Crown land Our role in the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and base. Does the extinguishment of tenure apply equally Reconciliation in bringing forward this legislation…. We to tree farm licence tenure as it does to other forms of have already been to Treasury Board, have already pro- volume-based tenures? vided the framework and the amounts which are indi- Let me ask the question diff erently. As far as I under- cated in the legislation. With Forests, Lands and Natural stand — I'm trying to frame the question, so bear with Resource Operations, they still have their work to do me a second — there's an explicit statement in the Forest in negotiating compensation. Once they are complete, Act that does not allow the expropriation with respect to then they would return to Treasury Board for that ap- tree farm licences that I'm aware of. So the Expropriation propriation. Act does not apply in a tree farm licence, because as the minister has indicated, it's an extinguishment of a right B. Simpson: Effectively, if I understand that, then that's been given with respect to that particular land base. that's an unknown. On each treaty that we settle, there's I'm asking the minister if extinguishment also applies an unknown portion, which is the compensation por- to other forms of forest licences, like replaceable and tion. Once there's an agreement that gets you to treaty, non-replaceable licences. Does the inability to use expro- the land is committed by the province, the federal gov- priation apply to those forms of licences as well? ernment gives cash to the First Nations, but then there's another series, as the minister's indicating, of negotia- Hon. I. Chong: Perhaps this will, again, provide the tions. I'm sure it's not just around forestry; it's around clarifi cation. Compensation is available for loss of AAC, annual allowable cut, and also for unamortized improve- other allocated rights — grazing or fi shing or whatever ments, regardless of the form of tenure. those other allocated rights are. Just a question on this, because from a public perspec- B. Simpson: Not to belabour the point, I'll actual- tive it's public land that's being given as part of the treaty ly go and just look at the Forest Act to see about the process — Crown land, if you will. Th e dispute between Expropriation Act not being used, because it's how you Crown and First Nations aboriginal right and title is do the compensation — whether you can actually just ex- settled, and the land reverts back to the First Nations as propriate and compensate at what the government thinks their rightful land. Using a fee simple model, the Crown is the fair market value or whether it's a negotiated agree- no longer asserts control over that land. Yet the Crown ment between the parties, okay? can't expropriate that land, right? There's an explicit As I understand it, as laid out in this act, the process clause in here that the Expropriation Act does not apply post-agreement…. So the treaty is signed. Th e treaty is to forest lands. going to be implemented. Th en within 21 days the chief I wonder if the minister could explain why we can't forester must reset…. So the chief forester would have simply expropriate land for achieving a treaty. to look at the timber supply area and reset the allowable annual cut. Hon. I. Chong: With all due respect, I think there Th at may or may not trigger compensation discussions, may be some confusion. If I've not conveyed it to him, as the minister has indicated, led by FLNRO. If it's a small then I will attempt again. When he mentioned the reduction and there's lots of opportunity there for cutting Expropriation Act, he's correct that it does not apply, be- and no volume licences are impacted, then the likelihood cause what we're talking about here is the Expropriation of compensation would be minimal. Act does not apply on private lands. On the tree farm licence, the deleted areas, then, would What is happening here is that we are looking at ex- initiate a conversation. Again, within 21 days, the AAC tinguishing a tenure, which is not the same as land. It's implications of the deleted areas would have to be dealt important to note that, because the land that is removed with. Because the government can't use expropriation, for treaty is wholly Crown land and was not held by the then they have to establish regulations, as I understand licensee as fee simple land. So compensation that is pay- this act — the regulations by Lieutenant-Governor-in- able to the licensee is not determined under the rules of Council for the compensation process and the regula- the Expropriation Act. Because of the extinguishment tions guiding compensation in that particular treaty. or removal of the tenure, that is why there is a negotia- If there's any dispute in the compensation process, then tion that needs to take place and a compensation needs this act states that if an off er is made and it's not accepted to be made. or whatever happens, the private entities would have [1645] the right to use the Commercial Arbitration Act. If you Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13319
can't get to agreement, they would use the Commercial land base that's assigned to a private corporation, and if Arbitration Act to get an arbitrated agreement on the we go and do more of these tree farm licences through value of whatever they deemed their losses to be. the rest of the process, does that make it a more diffi cult Let me just check with the minister that that's the pro- task at the table to negotiate treaties where you're going to cess — that within 21 days the AACs have to be reset. start now pulling back and clawing back areas that you're Th at will tell us whether or not compensation is going to going to have to delete from tree farm licences? be part of the ongoing dialogue. FLNRO takes over, and Is it easier to have land base discussions in the timber they begin the dialogue. If the dialogue winds down or supply area, or is there no diff erence between the two? gets into a sticky situation, I would imagine the govern- [1655] ment makes an off er. If the licensee doesn't like the off er, they go through commercial arbitration. Hon. I. Chong: If I heard the member's question cor- Is that a fair statement of what the process is? rectly, I think he was trying to ascertain whether it was more diffi cult to deal with one form versus another one Hon. I. Chong: Th e member has obviously read the with the negotiators. Let me just say this to the member. section, and I would characterize that as a pretty fair Our policy is to avoid third-party interests regardless of summation of what's happening. form, so that's what the negotiators do, and that's what [1650] they will continue to do going forward.
B. Simpson: Th is is one in a series of treaties. I'm won- S. Fraser: I had a number of questions around sub- dering, then…. Th e question is: where can we fi nd out, on section 7, but they've pretty much all been probed and behalf of taxpayers, previous settlements that must have answered. I do have one though. I know you don't know gone through this process? It strikes me there's a cost to the number of…. treaties that isn't necessarily as transparent as the initial Obviously, the compensation issue has been probed treaty is in terms of the land and cash off ers. Th ere are pretty well. Because the negotiation on the compensa- other costs that accrue to British Columbia taxpayers of tion is done through a diff erent ministry than MARR, these treaties. the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation, Have those costs been incurred in the Tsawwassen or does that then mean that compensation that would be the Maa-nulth or other treaties? If so, is there a place that paid in this treaty for the Tla'amin people or for other we could go and look for what those residual costs were treaties, Maa-nulth or future treaties to come…? to taxpayers? What did it cost us to buy back B.C.'s forest Where does the compensation come from? Is land in order to give it to First Nations or to rightly say it Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource to First Nations: "Now this is yours again"? Operations? Th at's the ministry that does the negotiation, from what I hear. Does it, then, come out of their budget? Hon. I. Chong: Th e member is likely aware, but I will Th at's the fi rst piece of this question. confi rm for the record that there were no forest tenures when we were negotiating Tsawwassen, which was our Hon. I. Chong: As the member likely heard in my fi rst modern-day treaty under the B.C. treaty process. answer to the member for Cariboo North, I indicated Th e following treaty was Maa-nulth, and it would be fol- that we have not yet concluded compensation amounts lowing the same framework which we now have before where we have treaties. So at this time, because we have us in Tla'amin. However, they are still in negotiations, not yet concluded that, the determination as to where the so there is not a report out yet on that. Yale has not yet compensation is to be paid from has not yet been deter- commenced. mined. We are certainly mindful of that, and when an If we had more treaties, completed treaties, we would appropriation is necessary, we will make that to Treasury have more opportunity to provide that to the member, Board and then that determination will be made. We're but we are still working through a number of them. not there yet.
B. Simpson: I want to give the fl oor back to the oppos- S. Fraser: Maybe I didn't phrase the question right. I ition critic here. Th at's interesting that Maa-nulth has yet understand you're not there yet. to be settled. Th is is a long post-treaty process of valuing Th e application of the Maa-nulth treaty is underway. this land base and settling and so on, so I'd be curious to It's actually rolling now. Five nations have come out see how that turns out. from under the yoke of the Indian Act, and it's wonder- For the minister and her negotiators, in terms of the ful. Two nations have joined the regional district in that experience in negotiating these treaties that involve land case. Th at's still being negotiated. Th at compensation for base that is encumbered with a tree farm licence, do tree Western Forest Products is still being negotiated. farm licences make the dialogue more diffi cult? I guess the question is: where do I fi nd the…? Where When you've got an exclusive map there, you have the is it budgeted for? Compensation from a treaty process, 13320 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
compensation to a third party: where is that accounted come from? I just need to know that. for? What ministry? In this case it's the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Hon. I. Chong: Th e member is correct. It will be in a Natural Resources Operations that negotiates the com- future budget with a future determination once we have pensation that followed from the treaty. Does that mean that. But at present he would not have found it in my that ministry then budgets for that, whatever the amount budget or in the Ministry of Forests because we haven't might end up being negotiated? Like, what budget does got that determination. it come out of? Does it come out of treaty budget? Does it come out of the package that would be…? S. Fraser: Th ank you. Would it aff ect the package of compensation for the First Nation? If Tla'amin has this treaty ratifi ed federally Section 14 approved. and there's a cost to compensation, are they paying for it? Is it coming out of a budget for the treaty settlement, On section 15. because it's a cost of treaty? I'm unclear. I haven't been able to fi nd a line item on this. S. Fraser: On the foreshore agreement, section 15(2) here says: "Within the identified area, the Tla'amin Hon. I. Chong: First of all, I want to say that any com- Nation may (a) exercise law-making authority delegated pensation that is negotiated will not be aff ecting the First to it under the foreshore agreement." Th at's in section (a) Nations, the settlement that we've agreed upon in terms — "law-making authority." Could the minister just iden- of our treaty. tify what that would mean? Maybe an example of what [1700] we were talking about here. In my previous answer I had indicated that because we have not yet had to request an appropriation, it has [L. Reid in the chair.] not yet been determined what exact budget that will be provided for. It could be Forests. It could be Ministry of Hon. I. Chong: What we're referring to here is that the Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. But because we delegated law-making authority would be similar to that do not yet have that dollar amount…. You don't just put of local government. As I say, it being similar to local gov- a budget in a line item not knowing that or not provid- ernments if they wanted to have authority with respect to ing for that envelope. not allowing bonfi res to take place, to have restrictions I think that the best I can tell the member is that once or noise bylaws, issues of nuisance. Th ose are the kinds we have our fi rst compensation and that is determined, of delegated law-making authority that would be similar then we will be able to establish that, going forward. As to local governments and that the Tla'amin would also the other treaties that we have in play also are dealt with, have the ability to undertake. in terms of those compensations, we'll be in a better pos- ition to know which specifi c ministry budget should have Th e Chair: Alberni–Pacifi c Rim. to accommodate for that. S. Fraser: Madam Chair, welcome back. We're still S. Fraser: I think I've got it. I think that I'm ready puttering away here. to move on — except, just for my clarity, there's…. We So they're essentially a bylaw type of law-making au- don't have estimates in this session. I realize that. Th at's thority. somewhat problematic, so that's why I'm just pursuing In section (b) it moves on to talk about enforcement of this a bit further. the laws. How would that enforcement of these laws…? In the budget this year, the budget that was just passed Would that be some form of bylaw enforcement — that in this House today, I could fi nd no identifi cation of com- sort of thing? pensation money to be paid — from any treaty. Th ere [1705] are negotiations happening right now with a number of treaties for compensation to third parties, so there is pre- Hon. I. Chong: Th at would be correct. sumably a cost to that, because there's a negotiation on. Am I to believe, then, that whatever compensation is S. Fraser: Subsection (4): "For the term of the fore- out there — for, I guess, Maa-Nulth, Yale and Tla'amin — shore agreement, (a) the Powell River Regional District there will be compensation potentially paid to third par- may not exercise any of its powers or perform any of its ties? It's not identifi ed in any line item in the Ministry of duties in the identifi ed area…." Th en there's a list of ex- Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation, and I couldn't ceptions. But just for clarifi cation, what powers and dut- fi nd it in Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations. ies are we referring to here? Is this just the reciprocal Is it to be a cost identifi ed in a future budget once those of the duties and powers that Tla'amin would then be numbers are identifi ed? Where is the money going to undertaking, be given the authority for? Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13321
Hon. I. Chong: Yes, that's correct. fuses me — if within that six months, if there was a pre- vious fi re bylaw or noise bylaw, post-treaty a Tla'amin S. Fraser: In subsection (5), it goes on…. I am some- member makes noise or there's a fi re, would a bylaw en- what confused by this. It says: "If, on the date the fore- forcement offi cer from Powell River would enforce the shore agreement comes into eff ect, the Tla'amin Nation previous bylaw? I can't see that…. Have I got this right? has not enacted a law under a law-making authority [1710] delegated by the foreshore agreement, a bylaw, if any, of the Powell River Regional District in respect of the Hon. I. Chong: Perhaps we have to connect subsection delegated matter, that applied in the identifi ed area im- (5) and subsection (6). In subsection (5) we are ensur- mediately before the coming into eff ect of the foreshore ing that there are no gaps in authority — okay? — when agreement…." I don't understand that. Can that be ex- there is a foreshore agreement that takes eff ect by deem- plained to me, please? I just can't get my head around ing the regional district bylaws to be the Tla'amin laws the wording on this. in areas where the Tla'amin have not enacted a law. So this is, again, to stop the gap. Hon. I. Chong: Subsection (5) is there to ensure that Subsection (6) provides that subsection (5) be time- there are no gaps in authority when a foreshore agree- limited to the shorter of six months or when the Tla'amin ment takes eff ect by deeming the regional district bylaws amend the deemed law. If aft er six months the Tla'amin to be the Tla'amin laws in areas where the Tla'amin has have not enacted a law in an area of its jurisdiction, prov- not enacted a law. incial law would then apply. Th e same applies to regional Let's say that Tla'amin has not yet had the opportun- districts that have no bylaws in a given area. ity to determine what its bylaw is with respect to noise Again, it's to ensure that there is some authority, or nuisance. If we don't have someone who is going to, whether it's a local government bylaw, a First Nation by- therefore, have that law-making authority, then there law or whether provincial law would eventually apply. could be a lot of nuisance and noises that take place. So in the absence of Tla'amin having put in place their by- S. Fraser: Th anks for the clarifi cation. But I'm not talk- laws, in essence, the regional district would be able to ing about provincial law here but the regional district have theirs enforced. in this case, local government. Th ey're cited here. Th eir So it is to make sure there's no gap — that there is a powers and responsibilities are listed here as sort of a fall- bylaw that, I think, everyone is concerned about that back position, at least in an interim period. would carry on. Was the regional district represented at the treaty table? Th ey're not signatories here. Just how did that S. Fraser: Th anks for that. Th e wording on that I found come about? particularly confusing. So for clarifi cation, just so I've got this right, there is a…. Is it automatic that if Tla'amin Hon. I. Chong: Yes, the regional district was consulted. does not put in a law — exercise their law-making au- thority on an issue — automatically the existing bylaw, for S. Fraser: Actually, the reason it…. Th ere was some instance, of the regional district, Powell River, would still confusion. Th ere was a gap, I think, from the province's apply without any consultation with the Tla'amin on this? point of view. I think there was a gap when the two Maybe the omission of not putting in a law means Maa-nulth members became members of the Alberni- there would be no requirement for one, according to the Clayoquot regional district. First Nation involved. So I'm curious as to how this works. Th ere was confusion about who would do what, how Is this a fallback position that automatically kicks in? that transition would be paid for. It was remedied, but there was a gap there that wasn't covered off . Hon. I. Chong: Th is is really a stopgap measure. It en- Is there presumed compensation for costs to the sures there is no gap. Th is, as I say, does allow the regional regional district, for instance, in this case if they're still district's bylaws to be in place until such time as Tla'amin responsible for enforcement of bylaws post-treaty, even can put in their bylaws. Now, I'm advised that this is only for a six-month period. Was there anticipated compen- in eff ect, as well, for six months. So in eff ect, as the mem- sation for that to the regional district — or some means ber indicated, if Tla'amin was not interested in a bylaw for covering the costs, at least? aft er six months, that is what's going to take place. To his point about the confusion, I've expressed that to Hon. I. Chong: I'm not sure if the member…. Maybe legal counsel, that they may have to make it more clear I've not clarifi ed it as succinctly as I should have. As I've next time. indicated, in the absence of Tla'amin developing their own bylaws, the regional district would still have the law- S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. But let me making authority to enforce the existing bylaws in a par- throw back an example. For instance — this is what con- ticular area. If there was not a treaty, they would still have 13322 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
been responsible for those bylaws in any event. Tsawwassen. What we're saying here with this treaty is that once this takes eff ect, the ability of Tla'amin to therefore agree or S. Fraser: Th anks for the answer. So just for clarity disagree with those bylaws can take place. Th ey have six again, this information would be accessible through FOI? months in which to do it, aft er which the regional district is permitted to remove itself from the authority and al- Hon. I. Chong: I think perhaps the better way to de- low either provincial law to apply or Tla'amin to develop scribe it is it would be protected by FOI. its own bylaws. Again, subsection (5) is to ensure that, as a result of Section 16 approved. these negotiations, there is no gap — whether it's bonfi res or nuisance or noise, just as an example — because you On section 17. would not want a free-for-all for six months for people who are going down to the beaches and making all kinds S. Fraser: Th e Municipal Finance Authority Act does of problems. not apply in relation to Tla'amin lands. I realize that's Th e regional district would have still been responsible consistent with other treaties. I guess I have a basic ques- for those bylaws. When the fi nal agreement has now been tion: why not? Why does it not apply? negotiated, is established, they would like to pass that on to the Tla'amin. If the Tla'amin are not yet ready to ac- Hon. I. Chong: I just wanted to make sure I had not cept that responsibility, this is why the regional district missed on something here. Th e member will know, in his is able to continue on up to six months, aft er which time term in local government — as I have and other members the regional district is allowed to walk away. of this House — that the Municipal Finance Authority If the Tla'amin have still not developed their bylaws, Act and the Municipal Financial Authority are available for whatever reason, the provincial laws then could apply to its members, who are municipalities as such. While to ensure that there are no infractions, as is stated. Tla'amin Nation will be a government, it is not a muni- cipality. It is just that straightforward. Section 15 approved. S. Fraser: Th anks for the answer. I don't dispute that On section 16. this is a nation coming out from under the yoke of the [1715] Indian Act, as I've said before, so I'm not equating this with being a municipality. S. Fraser: In "Collection of personal information" it [1720] says: "In this section, 'personal information' and 'pub- However, from my time as critic for local govern- lic body' have the same meanings as in the Freedom of ment, when for a while I was doing both portfolios, the Information and Protection of Privacy Act. (2) A public Municipal Finance Authority provides a huge service to body may collect personal information by a method au- local government in the sense that they have access to thorized under the Tla'amin Final Agreement." capital at a very reasonable rate. It helps address many of I guess the question is: what's anticipated here, with the infrastructure needs, for instance, that local govern- section 16, in this or any other treaty? ments face, that municipal governments face. I guess it's not a rhetorical question of: why not? But Hon. I. Chong: I will begin my comments by say- it is, sort of. If not the Municipal Finance Authority as a ing this is the same provision that was provided in Yale, body that can provide funding, then some other model. Maa-nulth and Tsawwassen. All three treaties had the Th e needs are there, and the cost of borrowing money same provision. has an eff ect on being able to address those needs. And Again, it is a section that authorizes British Columbia of course, the Municipal Finance Authority provides to collect personal information from the Tla'amin Nation very reasonable rates of access to funds for local govern- in accordance with chapter 22 of the fi nal agreement. ments, probably the best you can get, next to the prov- Th at has to do with eligibility and enrolment. With chap- incial government. ter 22, paragraph 14 of the fi nal agreement does provide Has there been no consideration for First Nations, as that on request Tla'amin Nation will provide British they achieve fi nal treaty settlements, that they have…? Is Columbia with a copy of its enrolment register. Th at con- that being anticipated at all? tains personal information as defi ned by the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. Hon. I. Chong: Th rough to the member, again, he So this is all being followed according to the rules of will know that municipalities and regional districts are the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy governed by the Community Charter — in Vancouver's Act. Again, I would stress that is the same provision case, the Vancouver Charter, and in the case of the other that has been provided for in Yale, Maa-nulth and regional districts, the Local Government Act. Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13323
First Nations, aft er the result of their treaty, are not [1725] governed by any of those pieces of legislation, which car- It's not as straightforward as he would say. I know he ries with it obligations and inherent risks and a number knows this, as a former member of a local government. of other duties. Th ere is a diff erence. It is a government. If it's something that he believes needs to be further ex- It is a form of government, but it is not a "local govern- plored, I think that the local governments, the area as- ment" as defi ned by the Community Charter or the Local sociations, should obviously be asked about this as well, Government Act. I would say, though, that there are other what their feelings on it are. sources, such as the First Nations Finance Authority. Th at As the member will know, the reason why the has been established. Th at's the federal government's ap- Municipal Finance Authority has such great success and proach to provide for that. regard with their triple-A credit rating, as we have, is I expect that perhaps, as more and more treaties are because they have been very cautious, very careful, and negotiated and are fi nalized, there may be a role for an put in very strict rigours in terms of the risks associated opening up of the dialogue and discussion with the fed- with it. Obviously, before they were to…. If they are to eral government — whether that First Nations Finance make changes, they would want to identify, again, all of Authority can be as successful as our own Municipal those possibilities. Finance Authority. Again, I'm not trying to be fl ippant about it. I just wanted to let the member know that it is not just, I guess, S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. I'm not a directive that we in the province here can make to the trying to be confrontational here. Th ere could be a role Municipal Finance Authority. I do think he knows that, for the province, too, because the Municipal Act or the but I'll just off er that up. Local Government Act is a creation of the province, of the provincial government, of this place — and so is the S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister. I don't disagree, al- act that allows for the Municipal Finance Authority to though again, with FNCIDA…. I mean, she's saying that provide the vital services they do for local governments. there's a need for security and investment. I understand As First Nations, we're seeing…. We've had acts in this that. But in the case of FNCIDA, that's the reason for al- House — last year Bill 43, FNCIDA, the Commercial lowing or creating a mechanism where provincial regu- and Industrial Development Act. I get acronyms wrong lations and standards apply on federal land — in this sometimes, but I think that's right. We're seeing moves case, reserve land. where provincial regulations are being asked to apply, I mean, that was already a mechanism brought into on reserve in some cases, with First Nations. We're see- play in at least two First Nations in British Columbia — ing bridging. Th ere's a blurring of boundaries between how local governments, First Nations governments, the the Haisla and Squamish — to make sure that there were province and the federal government interact together. those checks and balances and securities, if you will, for Again, there's a distinct disadvantage for many First lending money. Nations in having access to funds, whether they accom- I'm not disagreeing with the minister. I'm just saying plish treaty or not. It's just something for maybe another that movement has been made in that direction already discussion. But you know, I don't believe it's as black and that could help provide the security necessary for a body white as: "Well, they're not a municipality, so they don't like the Municipal Finance Authority. have the access to this." Under the act, I get it, but I would suggest that there's Sections 17 to 19 inclusive approved. still a need there for an effi cient model like the Municipal Finance Authority, which might be made available for On section 20. First Nations as a means for closing the gap. Just maybe a gratuitous comment, if the minister wants to respond. S. Fraser: It's a wording question, actually, and a spelling. Sliammon and Tla'amin are spelled two diff er- Hon. I. Chong: Again, I would just say that there is a ent ways in the beginning of this section 20. I'm just not First Nations Finance Authority, and perhaps that is an sure why. We don't see that throughout the bill. I'm just area that can be explored — as I indicated in my previ- curious why it's appearing here. ous answer to the member — a bit further. You know, I'm not trying to be insensitive to the com- Hon. I. Chong: I think what the member is referring ments the member is making, but we do have, certain- to is in subsection (1), when it says Sliammon Indian ly, the local governments and the municipalities, which Band. Th at is their current name, but on the eff ective date have their own legislation under which they're governed. they have expressed a desire to go back to their historic Th e Municipal Finance Authority Act is an act that is pro- name, which is Tla'amin Nation. Th at is why we have to vided by the province. Th ey also have their own ability to make reference to Sliammon, because that is their cur- govern and have members accepted as well. rent name. 13324 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Sections 20 to 24 inclusive approved. Because there was no mention on 27 of the Yale treaty, we have another amendment here — again, a similar kind On section 25. of pattern. It's not an end run on the Yale treaty, is what I want to make clear. If the minister could confi rm the role S. Fraser: During the briefing with your fine staff, for section 27 referring to the Yale treaty here, towards Minister, I did mention that I would probably stand on the fi nish of the Tla'amin treaty. these two sections here at least, maybe three — yeah, three. Hon. I. Chong: Embarrassingly, it really is about cor- [1730] recting a typo. Just so that there is no confusion for those that may be watching or reading from afar…. Th e section of the Local Sections 27 and 28 approved. Government Act being repealed here in the treaty might cause some confusion. I just ask the minister to explain Preamble approved. what's actually being said here so that nobody thinks the Local Government Act is being changed through a treaty Title approved. process in any way that could be seen as a threat. S. Fraser: I wanted to thank the minister and her fi ne Hon. I. Chong: Apologies. I was just, believe it or not, staff for being patient with myself and colleagues here, having an argument with legal counsel. I should know and thanks for providing us with the information that that that's not always a good thing to do, because we can you have. have quite the debate. Th e reason why section 25 is being repealed here is be- Hon. I. Chong: I move that the committee rise and re- cause it made reference specifi cally to Maa-nulth when port the bill complete without amendment. the Maa-nulth agreement was there. What it would mean is that every time we did an agreement dealing with the Motion approved. foreshore, we would always go back to looking at mak- ing changes to the Local Government Act. Th e committee rose at 5:39 p.m. [1735] What we've been able to accomplish here in section 25 Th e House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. is repealing section 795.5, which was inserted because of Maa-nulth. You will see then in section 26, which subse- Report and quently follows, how we are replacing it for Maa-nulth in Th ird Reading of Bills the Tla'amin agreement. As we go forward, the way we are approaching the foreshore with Tla'amin is the better BILL 4 — TLA'AMIN FINAL AGREEMENT ACT way to go and more consistent. In general, what we are doing in 25 and 26 is putting Bill 4, Tla'amin Final Agreement Act, reported com- in the correction from Maa-nulth in the Tla'amin agree- plete without amendment, read a third time and passed. ment, which is why it's in the consequentials as opposed to an act in force. I hope that makes sense to the mem- Point of Privilege ber. Either that, or he's going to have to have the debate (Reservation of Right) with legal counsel. Hon. S. Bond: Since this is my earliest opportunity, I Sections 25 and 26 approved. rise to raise a point of privilege related to the member for Skeena's comments during question period today. On section 27. Hon. I. Chong: I now call committee stage of S. Fraser: I never try to argue with legal counsel. Bill 5, intituled Protected Areas of British Columbia I made a point of not standing on 26 because the min- Amendment Act, 2013. ister addressed what was going on in 26, and I had this explained to me already. Your fi ne staff had to be patient Committee of the Whole House with me because I didn't get it at fi rst, but on the briefi ng I got it. I thought it was important that the understand- BILL 5 — PROTECTED AREAS OF ing was there for everyone who was watching — what BRITISH COLUMBIA AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 this meant and that it wasn't an onerous thing and that it wasn't something that was trying to be snuck through Th e House in Committee of the Whole on Bill 5; L. at the end. Reid in the chair. Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13325
Th e committee met at 5:40 p.m. the three properties.
On section 1. M. Sather: I want to congratulate the minister and the government on making that purchase. Certainly, we have M. Sather: It's my pleasure to address Bill 5, Protected Garry oaks here in Victoria. Th ey're a beautiful species, Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2013. Th is is and I just wanted to thank the minister for that. a bill that we support. It's a conservation bill, and there are many parts in it which I and some other members will Section 1 approved on division. be referring to — only in part, I expect, and to the relief of the minister, I'm sure. On section 2. Section 1 is with regard to Mount Maxwell Ecological Reserve on Saltspring Island. I haven't been to Mount M. Sather: Th ere are a number of parks mentioned Maxwell for quite a number of years, but I remember under section 2. I wanted to ask the minister some ques- climbing up there. It's a spectacular viewpoint from tions about some of them. Mount Maxwell and, as I recall, it has a very steep drop- One of them is Bridge Lake Park, which is in the off . It's quite awe-inspiring. Okanagan. It's a beautiful park, if anybody hasn't seen Th e minister had a release on this on February 18, 2012, it. It's got a variable park shoreline, beautiful islands and and refers to B.C. Parks and the Nature Trust teaming up the like. to secure threatened lands, those being Mount Maxwell It says that the addition of this park is as a result of and Burgoyne Bay protected areas. It makes reference, the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan. Th e addition to either here or in another part I read, if I recall correctly, the park is a large undeveloped shoreline area of Crown with regard to the Garry oak conservation. Th e minister land on Bridge Lake. can correct me if I've got that wrong. He will know about a dispute that had been going on Maybe I'll just ask the minister to give us a breakdown around Bridge Lake where a developer wanted to swap of what the main points are in the securing of this 22-hec- Crown land along the shoreline in exchange for an island tare property. that the developer owned in the lake, and I've never ac- tually heard whether that had been resolved. First of all, Hon. T. Lake: I'd like to introduce the staff that are I wanted to ask the minister if this piece of shoreline is here with me today to help us through committee stage. that part that was spoken about in that dispute. On my right I have Lori Halls, who is the assistant dep- uty minister for parks and the conservation offi cer ser- Hon. T. Lake: Because I'm from the Interior, I feel the vice; and on my left , Ken Morrison, who is the manager need to correct the member in that Bridge Lake is not in of planning and land administration for B.C. Parks. the Okanagan. It is in the Cariboo. And for all members Th ank you to the member for the question. Th e prop- present, Kamloops is not in the Okanagan either. It's in erty is within the relatively rare coastal Douglas fi r bio- the Th ompson valleys. geoclimatic zone. Along with the surrounding parks and ecological reserve, this property protects the largest Interjection. stand of Garry oak woodlands in Canada. Th is is signifi - cant from a biodiversity and conservation point of view. Hon. T. Lake: I know, hard to believe. Th e great city of Kamloops, in the Th ompson valleys. M. Sather: Th at's very exciting. Garry oak is threat- Th e answer to the member's question is no, that piece ened in some respects. I think it is full-on threatened, as of land is not included in this. I recall. Th at's great. Does the minister or staff know exactly or approxi- M. Sather: Th anks to the minister for correcting me. mately what the size is of that Garry oak stand? What is I do know where it is, and I misspoke there. I've been to the size of it? it. It's a lovely lake. It's 405 hectares, so it's a reasonably [1745] good size. Th is is tangential, I realize, but can the minister say Hon. T. Lake: Th ere is sort of a constellation of eco- anything about the state of aff airs with regard to that dis- logical reserves and parks in that area in which the Garry puted area in Bridge Lake? oak woodland is found. Mount Maxwell Ecological Reserve is what we're adding in today, but we also have Hon. T. Lake: Madam Chair, I believe that's under Mount Maxwell Provincial Park and Burgoyne Bay Park. the auspices of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Th e total of all three of those areas is over 500 hectares. Operations. Now, not all of that is covered with the Garry oak, but the Garry oak is found over that whole constellation of M. Sather: Well, that's fair enough. I guess we won't 13326 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
get to question the minister on it this year, perhaps, but the regional district of North Okanagan, to be used for another time. regional park purposes. So it essentially will remain a [1750] park, but under the auspices of the North Okanagan One of the parks that's made mention of here is regional district. Inkaneep Park. Th at's along the Okanagan River. Th ere's [1755] an addition being made to Inkaneep Park as a mitigation measure for the small deletion of 0.24 hectares to provide M. Sather: I'm afraid I didn't quite catch all that. It's re- a road to a planned correctional facility. I wondered if the maining a park, but under the regional district. Was that minister could tell me more specifi cally where the addi- a request by the regional district, then? It was a provin- tion is being made. cial park before, I understand, and it's being moved to a regional park. Why did that take place? Did the regional Hon. T. Lake: Th e addition is at the northernmost district want that, for some reason? end of the park. It kind of follows the road and squares off . It is 0.9 hectares of additional land at the north end Hon. T. Lake: I'm told that this land was donated by of the park. a family in the 1970s. Th ere are no facilities in the park, and the heirs of the family have asked that the land be M. Sather: Th ere is mention in section 2, also, of a transferred to the regional district to be operated as a couple of other parks that I didn't see in the background- regional park. I presume that the family would like to see er — the backgrounder is quite helpful — from the web- this as a more active park. Under the regional district, as site of the ministry. One of them mentioned is McDonald a regional park, that would be more easily accomplished. Creek Park. Apparently, this is 468 hectares on Arrow Lakes near Nakusp. M. Sather: Th ose are all the questions I have on sec- Can the minister explain how much the park is being tion 2. I believe my colleague has questions on section 3, decreased in size and what the reason for it is? when we get there.
Hon. T. Lake: I'm told that McDonald Creek Park is Section 2 approved on division. not in the bill. It was included in error in the explanatory notes, but it is not part of the bill. On section 3.
M. Sather: Well, that would clarify why it's not in the C. Trevena: I've got a couple of questions on section backgrounder, then. I'm assuming, then, that Wakes 3 for the minister, just to get some items on the record. Cove Park and Truman Dagnus Locheed Park are also As the minister knows, we are supportive of the re- not in the bill. moval of this section of park on a temporary basis for the reconstruction of the John Hart dam generating station. Hon. T. Lake: Yes, they are in fact part of the bill. I wanted to get on the record how much of the park, the amount of hectares, will be removed. What proportion M. Sather: Well, let's look at Wakes Cove Park, then, of the park is that? which I understand is in the north central Gulf Islands area. Th e same question with it: how much was it reduced Hon. T. Lake: Th e area that's being removed is 5.65 by, and why was it reduced? hectares. Th e park itself is 1,087 hectares, so that repre- sents about 0.5 percent of the total area. Hon. T. Lake: Th is is a correction of an administrative error. It is 0.1 of a hectare that's being removed. Th at will C. Trevena: I thank the minister. Is the area that is be- enable the restoration of an existing breakwater that pro- ing removed…? I'm assuming — and I wanted to clarify tects a facility of the West Vancouver Yacht Club. because of the description — that it is just from Highway 28 over to the construction site, that segment there. It's M. Sather: And Truman Dagnus Locheed Park — a around where the construction of the dam is going to be. nice title — which I understand is on the northeast side of Okanagan Lake, southwest of Vernon. It's being re- Hon. T. Lake: Th e member is mostly correct. Most of pealed entirely. How big was that park, and why is it be- that land is coming out at the site of construction, but ing repealed? there is a small existing road that is required for access to the west that will come out of the park as well. Hon. T. Lake: Th e area is about seven hectares. It's Just to remind the member and those watching, all of being cancelled, but the land is being transferred to the land that comes out will be put into a protected area the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource under the Environment and Land Use Act so that it can Operations, which will negotiate a long-term lease with only be…. It is still protected. Only this kind of work to Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13327
service the dam can be done under that protection. associated with the land and how they fi t the park man- agement plan's vision. All of that would be taken into ac- C. Trevena: Th at's good news. So the land will literally count when those lands are put in. just be used for…. Everything won't be torn out. It will just be used for access and for that bit of work. C. Trevena: Just to clarify, then. B.C. Hydro hasn't ac- I understand it is a temporary removal while the con- tually identifi ed those lands. It's going to be a discussion struction is going on. Is it foreseen that all the land will at the end of the project. be reintegrated into the park apart from, obviously, the construction of the road? Does the minister have any idea Hon. T. Lake: Hydro has identifi ed some potential for how long the removal will be? land, but again, that discussion will be ongoing through [1800] the project and fi nalized as we get close to the end of construction. Hon. T. Lake: It's diffi cult to know exactly what land will be put back into the park aft er construction, because C. Trevena: Is there any cost incurred in the removal obviously, they have to kind of look at the values of the of the land and then the reintegration of new lands into land involved. Th e agreement with B.C. Hydro is that the park? they will provide additional land as a grant to the park [1805] to make up for any land that is not able to be put back in. I think the second question that the member asked was Hon. T. Lake: Well, the process of removing the land about the economic aspects. Th is project is projected to obviously requires staff time and resources from the min- cost just over $1 billion — 2,000 person years of employ- istry. But in terms of actual costs, there will be some trails ment over fi ve years, beginning in 2013 — and expected that are impacted by the construction, and those will be to provide employment and business opportunities for restored at B.C. Hydro's cost. residents of Campbell River, First Nations and other north Island communities. Th e Chair: Shall section 3 pass? So ordered. My apologies. Member continues. C. Trevena: I thank the minister. I didn't ask the economic impact, which we are all excited about in C. Trevena: Just one fi nal question for the minister, Campbell River — just the duration. The minister is and then we can pass it. Th e plans for this are solely re- basically looking at what B.C. Hydro said, so about 2017 lated to B.C. Hydro's plans? It won't have any impact on will be when we get it back into park status. the idea and the plans for putting in a suspension bridge Does the minister have any ideas or any plans of how up at the canyon? it would be reintegrated, that section that can be reinte- grated? How will that happen? While talking about that, Hon. T. Lake: Th e member is correct. Th e action that the alternate land — the additional land that B.C. Hydro we're taking today is to allow the construction on the is providing — is that adjacent to the existing Elk Falls John Hart dam. Th e member is referring to a proposal, I Provincial Park, or is it in a diff erent location? believe, by the Rotary clubs in the region. We certainly look forward to working with them. It looks like a very Hon. T. Lake: Just to be clear, the construction is ex- interesting proposal, and our Parks staff will be happy pected to start in 2013 and go for fi ve years, so it will be to work with the proponents as we move that forward. 2018 when that land gets put back into the park. Th e exact location and sort of makeup of the land to go back into the Section 3 approved. park will have to be judged once the project is completed. But Hydro does have some small inholdings in the park On section 4. that could be used as a donation to the park to make up for any land that isn't able to be returned to the park. M. Sather: Th is is a section with a number of parks in it. I'm just going to comment on a couple of them. Th en, C. Trevena: For the additional land that B.C. Hydro I think, the member for Cariboo North has some that he produces, is the minister looking at the value of that land wants to talk about. in the trees that are there, the ecological mix that's there? I wanted to talk to the minister, though, about a couple Or would the minister be looking at literally the percent- of the parks that I'm fairly familiar with. Well, at least in age of acreage there? Would it be quality or quantity, I one case it's a park — in the other case, an area — that guess, is my question, Minister. being Marble Range Park, which is a really lovely park situated west of Highway 97 and east of the Fraser River. Hon. T. Lake: The considerations are not just the Th ere is a lot of limestone formation on it and, apparently, amount of land but the quality of the land, the values I'm told, some rare plants are found there as well. Quite a 13328 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, March 5, 2013
bit of it is above tree line, and a fair bit of it is treed. ic question. We certainly can provide a more specifi c Th e park was created as a class A park in 1998 by the response aft er consulting with the Ministry of Forests, then NDP government. Th e 1999 management plan for Lands and Natural Resource Operations. the park — this is just a technical question — lists the [1815] park at 17,920 hectares. Th e backgrounder to the gov- ernment website lists the park as 19,236 hectares, which M. Sather: Th e reason I asked is because, as the min- would be an increase of 1,316 hectares, but the back- ister will know — this is not his ministry — the forest grounder indicates that the park is increased in size by committee last summer decided to look at logging of 2,215 hectares. marginal stands of timber, and a lot of these stands are So we've got a discrepancy there between the 2,215 in subalpine forests. Parks would certainly be interested hectares and the 1,316. I just wonder if the minister's staff in that, I think, because it probably would have an eff ect can clarify that for me. on a park like Marble Range Park. Th at's my question. If we look at Marble Range Park — for example, if we in- Hon. T. Lake: Th e area of the park…. With new map- crease logging of subalpine forests — isn't that going to ping techniques that are available through technology aff ect this park? today, we can actually get a better idea of what the ac- tual areas of some of these parks are. So there's no land Hon. T. Lake: Within the park, obviously, there are the coming out of the park at all. Th e area is being increased forest values…. Th e member is referring to the space out- by 2,215 hectares. side the park. If I have the question correct, what impact [1810] would logging have on the park's values? When assessing or making decisions over cutting M. Sather: I had a look at the map in the Clerk's of- permits, the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural fi ce, and thanks to the minister for providing that. But Resource Operations would consider impacts on the I couldn't determine from there where the additions to park, visual-quality objectives and, also, guidelines that the park were. Can the minister tell me just where the are outlined in the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan. additions are? I know this is an issue in other areas. In Wells Gray Park, for instance, there's an issue there that people are Hon. T. Lake: Th anks to the member for his patience. somewhat concerned about with forestry activities out- Th ere are some old mineral claims that have been for- side of the park that may impact the park. feited. Th ose are on the southwest corner of the park. Our ministry certainly will work with Forests, Lands If the member will see on the map, there are kind of and Natural Resource Operations and advocate about the squared-off areas. Th ese are the old mineral claims that values of the park and how it's impacted by any forestry are being put into the park addition. operations surrounding the park.
M. Sather: In the 1999 plan they described special M. Sather: Th at's important, I think, because if they resource management zones, or SRDZs. It says: "Th ese are logging up near the park boundary…. I'm not sure low-intensity areas recognize the sensitive nature of how much forest is in the park. I couldn't tell that from certain lands outside protected areas that contribute a the map, but I'm sure some of it is or a fair bit of it is. range of values, including natural resource conservation Th ey're going to get quite a bit of runoff . It's not a super- and maintenance; resource development and extraction; high-snowfall area, but still, in some years, you're going commercial and non-commercial recreation and tour- to get a lot of runoff . Th ere's more and more concern, of ism; and fi shing, trapping and hunting." course, about the downstream eff ects on fi sheries — for Can the minister tell me: are these zones still in place? example, of sedimentation in streams — so that's a con- cern. Hon. T. Lake: Th e member is referring to the 1995 Th e other thing I wanted to ask the minister about in Cariboo-Chilcotin management plan, which described the bill…. Th ere's a technical wide-ranging discussion these special resource management zones. And yes, to here of various mineral claims. He may have already an- the member, those are still in place. swered this question earlier, when I asked him about the additions. Just so I'm clear on this, what is the upshot of M. Sather: Th at's good to hear. that discussion in the bill? Is it that the park is surround- I know there's been recent logging on the east side of ing these mineral claims, or is it that mineral claims are the Marble Range. I'm not too sure about the west side. I being taken out of the parks? What is that all about? haven't been around there lately. Does that logging in that [1820] area…? Would it run up to the park boundary? Hon. T. Lake: In the description of many of the parks Hon. T. Lake: With regret, we can't answer that specif- in the Cariboo-Chilcotin set of parks that we're adding Tuesday, March 5, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13329
here, it will talk about mineral claims. Th ese are mineral lot more than just the dead pine trees. Th ere's a lot of the claims that have not been included in the park and are understorey that's removed as well, which is going to fur- mostly small slivers on the periphery of parks. So we've ther dry out the lands at a time when we seem to be get- designed the additions to the park to exclude those areas ting a drought cycle anyway — which is likely, I expect, that have active mineral claims. or may be, climate change–related. [1825] M. Sather: Th en, to go back to the additions, why were Have Parks done any studies themselves — or are those additions made where they were? they familiar with any studies by, maybe, the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations — to Hon. T. Lake: Just sort of looking at the rationale be- measure the dynamic between these large-scale logging hind the whole Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan, goal 2, operations and drought in that area and, furthermore, special features. When the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use what eff ect that's having on everything from wildlife to plan was approved in 1994, there was direction that goal cattle to people? 2 areas would be identifi ed through further planning at the local level. Hon. T. Lake: Certainly, mitigation of climate change Since that time, consultation…. First of all, identifi ca- and adaptation to climate change are important compon- tions of proposed areas by the general public, stakeholder ents of our ministry service plan, as well as many other groups and by government were put forward. Th en they ministry plans across government, particularly those in were evaluated by local-regional protected area teams to the natural resource sector. determine the regional signifi cance of the natural, cultur- As the member well knows, this government invested al or recreational values and to determine potential vul- $90 million in the Pacifi c Institute for Climate Solutions, nerabilities and viability. Also, First Nations stakeholder and they encourage various studies on mitigation and groups and local government were consulted. adaptation. Th at work is ongoing, and certainly, the re- Th e values were incorporated. Th e limitations were search and the information are used in the decision- looked at. We looked at mineral claims that were expir- making process across government. ing and could be put into the park. Th ose, obviously, that I was at an interesting lecture at UVic last week by were still active were not put into the park. All of that a leading climatologist, looking at the eff ect of Arctic was considered through this process, which is quite an warming on the jet stream and how that aff ects the cli- extensive process, fi nally coming to fruition here today. mate and essentially leads to longer periods of drought in areas that are susceptible to drought and longer periods M. Sather: Just to start on some of my comments on of moisture in those areas that are susceptible to moisture. the other park I wanted to mention. Th is is a relatively Th e member is correct in noting that climate change small park called Copper Johnny Park. It's a little fur- does aff ect the land base. I can assure the member that ther north across Meadow Lake Road. I haven't actually it is part of the decision-making process when we look been to it, but I know that Copper Johnny Creek runs at parks and when Forests, Lands and Natural Resource into Meadow Lake. Operations looks at the cutting permits that are issued. One of the problems we're having in the Cariboo With that, I will move that the committee rise, report Plateau is that drought has been quite signifi cant. So progress and ask leave to sit again. Meadow Lake, which is probably two-and-a-bit miles long by a mile wide or so, is receding about 20 feet or Motion approved. so every year. Th ere's hardly any water that comes in through Copper Johnny Creek. Th e other inlet source of Th e committee rose at 6:27 p.m. water was actually cut off by a Ducks Unlimited project, which has dammed some of the water further up. Th e House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Th is park is just below, I guess it is, or just adjacent to Clink Lake. Th en it includes a larger lake that's unnamed. Th e Committee of the Whole, having reported progress, But looking at it on Google Earth, it looks, like many of was granted leave to sit again. the lakes up there, half dry or so. I also noticed that to the north side of it, there were a couple of large clear- Hon. T. Lake moved adjournment of the House. cuts coming right down near the lake. Th ere's a concern. With the drought conditions, we're seeing dieback in Motion approved. aspen, and that's probably — at least, in part — caused by drought, or so I've read. For the whole area, it's a concern. Mr. Speaker: Th is House stands adjourned until 1:30 So the question I wanted to ask the minister is around tomorrow aft ernoon. the logging. We know that we've had a lot of beetle-kill logging. From what I see of it in that area, it takes out a Th e House adjourned at 6:28 p.m.
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