HOUSE OF LORDS

European Union Committee

26th Report of Session 2006–07

The EU and the Peace Process

Volume II: Evidence

Ordered to be printed 3 July 2007 and published 24 July 2007

Published by the Authority of the House of Lords

London : The Stationery Office Limited £price

HL Paper 132-II CONTENTS

Page

Oral Evidence Mr John Sawers, Political Director, and Mr David Quarrey, Deputy Director, Middle East and North Africa Department, Foreign and Commonwealth Office Oral Evidence, 1 February 2007 1

Mr Yossi Mekelberg, Head of International Relations and Development Studies, Webster University London, and Associate Fellow, Middle East Programme, Chatham House, and Dr Ahmad Khalidi, Senior Associate Member, St Antony’s College, Oxford University Oral Evidence, 8 February 2007 15

Professor Manuel S Hassassian, Palestinian General Delegate, London Oral Evidence, 1 March 2007 29

Dr Richard Youngs, Senior Researcher, Fundacion para las Relaciones Internacionales y el Dialogo Exterior (FRIDE), Madrid, Lecturer, University of Warwick, and Dr Robert Springborg, MBI Chair, Middle East Studies, Director, London Middle East Institute, School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London Oral Evidence, 8 March 2007 40

His Excellency Mr Gehad Refaat Madi, Ambassador of the Arab Republic of , and Dr Mahmoud Afifi Oral Evidence, 15 March 2007 53

His Excellency Mr Sami M Khiyami, Ambassador of the Arab Republic of , Dr Abdullatis Dabbagh, Dr Hosam Hafez, and Mr Jihad Makdissi Oral Evidence, 15 March 2007 58

Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Director, Middle East, Mr Patrick Child, Chef de Cabinet to Commissioner Ferrero-Waldner, and Mr Hans Duynhouwer, Middle East Unit, EuropeAid, European Commission Oral Evidence, 22 March 2007 65

Dr Jana Hybášková, Chairman, Delegation for Relations with Israel, European Parliament Oral Evidence, 22 March 2007 75

Mr Robert Cooper, Director-General, Mr Christian Jouret, Head of Middle East Task Force, Council Secretariat Oral Evidence, 23 March 2007 83

Dr Javier Solana, Secretary-General, Council of the EU, High Representative, Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP) Oral Evidence, 23 March 2007 91

His Excellency Dr Oded Eran, Israeli Ambassador, , and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher Oral Evidence, 29 March 2007 96

Dr Kim Howells, MP, Minister of State, and Mr David Quarrey, Deputy Director, Middle East and North Africa Department, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and Mr Michael Anderson, Head of Middle East and North Africa Department, Department for International Development Oral Evidence, 18 April 2007 108

Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes Oral Evidence, 26 April 2007 123

Written Evidence

Dr Nomi Bar-Yaacov, Foreign Policy Adviser on Middle Eastern Affairs 136 Commission Services 139 Funding for Peace Coalition 141 NGO Monitor 147 Palestinian Media Watch 156 Relief and Works Agency 161

NOTE: The Report of the Committee is published in Volume I, HL Paper No 132-I. The Evidence of the Committee is published in Volume II, HL Paper No 132-II. 3676421001 Page Type [Ex 1] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Minutes of Evidence

TAKEN BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE EUROPEAN UNION (SUB-COMMITTEE C) THURSDAY 1 FEBRUARY 2007

Present Anderson of Swansea, L Hannay of Chiswick, L Boyce, L Lea of Crondall, L Crickhowell, L Roper, L (Chairman) Hamilton of Epsom, L

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Mr John Sawers, Political Director, and Mr David Quarrey, Deputy Director, Middle East and North Africa Department, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, examined.

Q1 Chairman: Mr Sawers and Mr Quarrey, thank violence continues; there was the dreadful attack in you very much indeed for coming to see the Eilat on Monday which we utterly condemned. The Committee this morning. As you know, we are at the outlook remains uncertain, but there is more of a beginning of an inquiry on the European Union and willingness on the side of the two principal parties to the Middle East and we thought it would be a good work more closely together and we are particularly idea to have witnesses from the FCO at the beginning encouraged that the Administration to get an overall view of the British Government’s has made a very significant commitment to working position. We have, as you know, a number of intensively over the next two years to try to make questions which we would like to put to you, but I do progress in the Middle East. Secretary Rice has said not know whether you would like to make an initial that they would like to achieve a two-State solution statement before we start putting questions to you. in the next two years and that determination is very Mr Sawers: Thank you, my Lord Chairman. I am welcome; it has been encouraged by the Prime John Sawers, the Political Director at the Foreign Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Government OYce, and I advise the Foreign Secretary on the full as a whole. Therefore, whilst 2006 was a very diYcult range of political and security issues worldwide with year for the Peace Process, there have been some particular emphasis on the Middle East, , recent signs of progress and the political aspects are and so on. On the Middle East Peace Process, of coming closer together and we will want to build on course the last few years has been pretty discouraging that and encourage that. with the developments that we have seen. We were hopeful that the disengagement policy from Gaza Q2 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. In that would be followed by further steps by both sides to circumstance, do you feel that the Road Map still create the conditions whereby the two-State solution, represents the best basis for progress or should the which the British Government along with other European Union now be directing its energies to members of the European Union and many members moving towards negotiations on final-status issues? of the international community support, would be Mr Sawers: Well, I think the Road Map is a very able to be brought closer, but the political important document; it is agreed to by both sides, it developments both in Palestine and Israel have made is supported by the Quartet, who represent the that more diYcult. However, it is not entirely a bleak international community on this, and there is no outlook. There have been a number of developments advantage in setting it to one side as it contains some recently which have brought cause for greater very important commitments that both sides have optimism. There have been direct contacts between made. The time-line that was set out in the original Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas. There Road Map of course has long been overtaken, but the has been some funding of the Palestinians from tax commitments in there are important ones; for the revenues that the Israelis collect. There has been a Palestinian side to bring an end to violence and ceasefire from Gaza which has been broadly dismantle the terrorist structures, on the Israeli side respected, although there are occasional rocket to stop settlement building and to normalise life for attacks still from northern Gaza into Israel; and the Palestinians, and on the side of both of them the outbreak of fighting between Palestinian factions last commitment to a two-State solution. I think what we week seems to have been brought to a close and, as will see is that the US-led political eVorts will be with the ceasefire, we will see if that holds. Of course looking not just at a methodical working-through of 3676421001 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

2 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey the Road Map as it is set out at the moment, but I able to make commitments which are serious and think they will want at least to establish a sort of binding. political horizon by talking about some of the Mr Sawers: I do not disagree with your analysis diYcult final-status issues, not pre-negotiating them, about the respective political strengths of the leaders but setting more of a framework for the resolution of that we are dealing with, both face domestic political those diYcult final-status issues as they go forward diYculties and that is very apparent. But both are on the first stage of the Road Map, which is to bring keen to find a way forward and see the prospect of an end to violence and to normalise Palestinian life as progress towards a peaceful resolution of the far as possible. Palestinian question as being a way of building greater strength, if they can do it on terms acceptable to their own communities of course. I think progress Q3 Lord Anderson of Swansea: The Road Map 2003 V in the second half of last year was held back by the was in very di erent political circumstances and the political conditions that you describe, but I think, as election of Hamas a year ago clearly put a question the small steps that I have set out show, the ceasefire mark over the various steps. I notice that Solana in a between Palestinians in northern Gaza and Israel and recent interview said as follows: “It’s time to enter the greater co-operation between the two sides, there final-status talks. It’s time to enter a discussion of the is a willingness of the two parties to work closely end of the conflict. A crisis management approach to together, and the engagement of the United States on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is over; we need to enter a level which frankly we have not seen for the the conflict-resolution stage and try to end the previous six years, I think that is encouraging. It is occupation of 1967”. Do you wholly agree with that? always going to be extremely diYcult to make Mr Sawers: I do not want to be tied to exact wording progress on this, I do not want to raise expectations that Mr Solana has used, but he is an important too high, but to have the political commitment of the player in this, representing the European Union, and US Administration, of the European Union and of he has been very deeply committed for a good the leaders of the two main parties is a very important number of years and has established good relations starting point. with both sides, so he is a significant player and what he says is important and weighty. Q6 Lord Anderson of Swansea: How do you respond to sceptics who say that the new US commitment, Q4 Lord Anderson of Swansea: But that was not the because, you will remember, after the Clinton question. experience the first years of the Bush Administration Mr Sawers: Yes, I was just coming to the answer to were wholly neglecting the Israel-Palestine conflict, is your question. As I said to my Lord Chairman, I more to do with bringing on moderate Arab states, think all parties recognise that we are not going to be Jordan and Egypt, into a dialogue which might help able to simply work through the Road Map stage by the US elsewhere in relation to Iran and Iraq and less stage, but there is going to have to be some discussion to do with the immediate conflict? of the diYcult final-status issues, borders, Mr Sawers: No, I think the US Administration settlements, refugees and Jerusalem, if the time-line understand the centrality of the Palestinian question, that President Bush has set, and which we would all I think more so as the years go by. Obviously in the support, of early progress on resolving the last two years of a US Administration, the pressures Palestinian question is to be achieved. Now, whether on them change and the desire to be able to produce that means we go straight into negotiation of the real, lasting change and progress is very real as well. final-status issues, I think that might be a step too far I stick by what I said earlier, that I think that there is a at this stage. I think the conditions have to be created prospect for making progress, although it will remain if those negotiations are to be successful, but diYcult, and all the factors that you describe, Lord certainly earlier discussion, building on some of the Anderson, are indeed problems that have to be progress that was made in 2000 between the two addressed. sides, I think there is scope for doing that and it is something which I know the US Administration are Q7 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: If I could follow on willing to consider and engage in. the line of questioning that Lord Anderson asked about the Road Map and the final-status issues, and Q5 Lord Anderson of Swansea: What are the serious I welcome very much what you said about the final- prospects of making progress when the two principal status issues being a part of what we are looking at leaders are weakened so politically? President Abbas now, but do you not think another reason or two is mightily weakened within the Palestinian reasons why that is desirable are, firstly, that it is very territories and Olmert has introduced into his diYcult to pursue sequential peace negotiations when coalition the hard-liners, so there seems to me very there is such distrust about the final-status issues and little prospect of either of the two main leaders being when there is the feeling that any interim or 3676421001 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence 3

1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey preliminary step somehow prejudges the outcome of way through we will be looking at the value added of a final-status issue and, therefore, nobody accepts it the EU against the political background that you until they know what is going to happen, and I have have described. Now, some people think the EU always thought personally that that is a drawback of ought to do more, indeed the Jordanian Foreign the road map approach? Secondly, the road map Minister said in so many words recently that the EU approach is singularly vulnerable to the extremists ought to do more. In what sense can the EU, when because that is the sort of approach where it is easy the balance is to all the configurations which you for the whole thing just to grind to a halt because have touched on, have its own priorities? Some somebody blows somebody else up in Eilat or people think that it should do because of the relations wherever it is, whereas surely what we need in the with the American approach, but where can Middle East is what we finally got to in Northern European eVorts have the greatest impact? Ireland which is a peace process which the parties to Mr Sawers: I think a lot of progress has been made the process simply will not allow to be derailed by over the last several years, and my colleague Mr extremists outside the process using violence? Quarrey may wish to add to what I say. The Mr Sawers: I do agree, my Lord Chairman, with European Union has established a much broader Lord Hannay’s sentiments. I think the problem with relationship with Israel, for example, through the the Road Map has been the burden of meeting the Association Agreement and through the European first phase before you can make progress towards a Neighbourhood Policy’s activities, which has given Palestinian State, and, as you rightly say, Lord more substance to that relationship, so the European Hannay, the opportunity for extremists to block it is Union is not only engaged in the Peace Process, it is very real. The readiness to look at the issues in the engaged in a range of issues, thickening relations round to describe what the final outcome might be, I between Israel and the European Union, and I think think, is an important movement on the political side. that has been very beneficial and eVected the debate The engagement of the Palestinians in a process with on Europe’s role both in Israel and in Europe. The one another, the Fatah and Hamas discussions, I European Union has also added value in some think they are important, but we are not clear specific areas. We have given very substantial aid to whether they are going to lead to a national unity the Palestinian side, a total of some 680 million euros government of any form in the near future and, if one was given last year, for example, a combination of is formed, we will obviously want it to accord to the European Member States and the European Quartet principles which President Abbas himself is Commission, and that has been of central importance firmly signed up to. We do have to proceed, as you to addressing humanitarian issues on the Palestinian say, in a way in which every political leader and side and, in a diYcult period, channelling funds to group is committed to the Peace Process and to essential services in Palestine. The European Union dealing with the violence and countering terrorism. has also engaged more in the security side, and this is Prime Minister Rabin 12 years ago had a good quite a breakthrough in the last two years, with the expression where he talked about pursuing peace as two missions under the European Security and if there were no terrorism and countering terrorism as Defence Policy. The Rafah Crossing, which the if there were no peace negotiations, and that is the European Union runs and manages, is a very diYcult sort of approach which needs to be taken. The project and it is not 100% successful, but it is an diYculty will come if there is a party in the important opportunity for Palestinians to move Palestinian Government that has not renounced directly into Egypt and Egyptians to move directly violence, if it remains committed to violence. That into Palestine without passing through Israel, and it was the breakthrough in Northern Ireland, if I may is policed and managed by the European Union with pursue your analogy, that it was only when the support on all sides. The second breakthrough on the leaders of the main political groups were all security side is a project which is known as ‘EU committed to peaceful negotiations and had all set COPPS’, standing for the ‘Co-ordination OYce for aside violence as a tactic that we were able to make Palestinian Police Support’, and that started as a progress, and that is going to be equally important in British project several years ago. It has now been the Middle East. adopted by the European Union and expanded and this helps support the Palestinian police’s own Q8 Lord Lea of Crondall: Mr Sawers, without being transformation plan in Palestine and it co-ordinates too pedantic about it, we are inquiring into in eVect Member States’ assistance to the Palestinian police. the specific role of the EU. Therefore, in a number of areas we are making Mr Sawers: Yes. practical assistance.

Q9 Lord Lea of Crondall: Constitutionally, we are Q10 Lord Lea of Crondall: You are drawing a bound to be within those parameters and obviously distinction, in other words, between the EU having a there is a question of interpretation of that, so all the role giving practical assistance, but not having its 3676421001 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

4 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey own policy on what you might call the ‘border but, on reading it, I thought “creative response”, politics’? what is that beyond these very specific, little Mr Sawers: Well, Lord Lea, you interrupted me initiatives? When you came to talk about before I got to the last point. What I was doing was representing the middle ground and the diVerence in laying the basis of how the European Union has the role of Europe from the United States, I was established very substantial relationships of trust and saying to myself, “Clearly, there is bound to be a support with both the principal parties. The existence diVerence because, by the nature of the States and the of the Quartet does give us a position whereby the way their foreign policy is devised, the United States European Union’s voice is there alongside that of the can take a clear initiative, decide on a policy and UN, the United States and Russia, and I think also it provide leadership”. I am not at all clear, beyond is fair to say that the European Union represents the taking useful, little steps which are helpful, how middle ground of the international community and Europe, as it is formed, forms a policy, a “creative that is an important issue. When there is a debate response”, that can be more than fiddling on the between various parties, between the Arab world, sides, if I can put it like that, or how we actually between Israel, the United States, Russia and so on, represent the middle ground and reach a decision on the European Union can act politically as a rallying policy that really makes a diVerence. I think this is at point. We, 25 years or so ago, advocated an the heart of what this inquiry is all about, that we independent Palestinian State and that has now welcome the small and important steps that Europe become international policy, which is longer than we has taken, but I am left wondering how Europe, as it would have liked. It was deeply controversial in 1981 is constructed at the moment, can, and does, form a when it was first announced, but it is now a policy that really makes a creative diVerence. commonplace and adopted by the United States as Mr Sawers: My Lord Chairman, I am in danger of US policy. We have helped facilitate talks between roaming beyond the brief of the Middle East, but I the two sides, we have supported the Palestinians in think there are examples elsewhere, if you will permit their capacity to engage in these negotiations and I me, where the European Union’s Common Foreign think all the developments that I have described have and Security Policy has progressively taken more led to a greater degree of trust on the Israeli side as responsibility and has had greater eVect. The Balkans well as on the Palestinian side that the European is one good example where Europe’s commitment to Union has an important voice and has a role to play. bringing about peace and stability and better In the personality of Javier Solana, we have an governance in the Balkans and the opportunity for individual who has been very closely involved, has these countries eventually to join the European helped resolve specific obstacles and has helped set Union has meant that the European Union is now, by the international framework for discussion of the some way, the most significant player in issues Palestinian question. Is the European Union role as relating to the Balkans. When we had the Orange great as that of the United States? Well, I do not think Revolution in the Ukraine, it was the European it is as great as that of the United States, I think that Union that took the lead and the personality of Dr V is some way o . The United States is an absolutely Solana and various Member States, Poland, essential player in large part because of its Lithuania and some others, who were most active in relationship with Israel and the crucial role that Israel supporting that very important change. There has is going to play in determining whether there is peace been some slipping back in the Ukraine since, but it or not, but I think the European Union role has was a very important moment when the Orange grown, it could grow further, and it is now Revolution succeeded and the outcome of the institutionalised as part of the Quartet and that is elections was upheld. In Iran, you have another very important. example where the European Union has led international opinion through the mechanism of the Q11 Lord Crickhowell: I would like to follow on a bit European Union where three Member States, from that line of questioning. Helpfully, we have in Britain, France and Germany, have taken the lead front of us, attached to another paper we have been and where the United States has changed its policy, considering this morning, the Explanatory seeing the importance and value of the European Memorandum on the European Union’s Common Union approach. There is still a long way to go with Foreign and Security Policy, which sets out rather Iran, but Europe remains the lead player in shaping neatly where we are. For example, in paragraph 30 of international opinion and international policy, in that note, it says that, “The EU’s special part, because the United States, Russia and also representative has been a key player in the EU’s China, each very important players, find it diYcult to creative response to the political situation”, and it agree to one another’s policy, but they can all support then goes on to refer to some of things you were the European approach. They may not think it is suggesting, the aid to the Palestinians, the EUPOL perfect, but they can see that it represents a good initiative and so on. I understand those initiatives, approach for the international community as a 3676421001 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

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1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey whole, and that is what I was referring to as the Mr Sawers: I think it is unrealistic for us to aspire to ‘middle ground’. On the Middle East Peace Process, have a greater role than the United States in bringing the European Union role is not as great as it is on about peace between Israel and the Palestinians. I these other areas, the Balkans, Ukraine and Iran, think it is fair for us to aspire and right for us to aspire that I have cited, but it has, as I have said, created a to a significant role in that process in support of the framework whereby the whole international United States lead. Sometimes the European Union community now accepts, with the exception of one or will work in tandem with the United States, two outlying countries like Iran, that there should be sometimes Europe will take the lead, sometimes two states in the Middle East, an Israeli State and a America will take the lead. It is government policy, Palestinian State, and it is based on European policy. often stated by the Prime Minister, that these are our Through periods where the United States has not essential alliances and where Europe and America paid as much attention to the issue as we would like, work together we have a better chance of achieving we have kept the flame burning for that two-State progress but we cannot always assume that Europe is solution and supported people on both sides, both going to be better placed to take the lead and bring the Israeli side and the Palestinian side, who were about the solution. On this particular question V working to that goal. We do not have the same degree a ecting Israel’s vital interests, I think the role and of influence or leverage over, for example, the Israelis the leadership of the United States is frankly or the Palestinians that we have over countries who indispensable. are closer to Europe, but we can play an important, political role and we can play it by encouraging the Q13 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: If I could follow up United States to remain engaged, by feeding in ideas, on this, it seems to me that you have made a very by establishing good practice on the ground in terms strong case for the Europeans, in Lord Crickhowell’s of supporting the Palestinian Authority and in words, trying to demonstrate a better grasp and building up a relationship with Israel where Israel’s better involvement than we have done hitherto in the economic, cultural and commercial interests are big policy issues in the Middle East peace process, much more tied up with Europe than they are with and you yourself gave the example of Lord the United States. I think Israelis recognise that and Carrington’s policy when he was in the chair on the value that and it means that they respect the two-State solution, which actually was a brilliant European Union approach perhaps more than was diplomatic manoeuvre in the sense that it shifted the the case some years ago. I would not like to claim too whole debate substantially and it never slid back much credit for the European Union policy again. It could well be that Europe has a role to play, specifically on the Middle East Peace Process, but, on not in bringing about something revolutionary but in the wider question of the development of CFSP, I moving the debate forward, particularly on final think we have seen very important progress in the last status issues. Would you not think that this is all the 10 years. The development of a capacity to engage in more necessary if you are, as I am, somewhat more security issues through the Security and Defence sceptical about the US staying power in what they Policy is another important step and there are the two have just announced as their determination to give a examples I cited to Lord Lea earlier which show that lot of emphasis to this. It is really very diYcult to see we can bring these capabilities to bear in the Middle this US President sitting in Camp David in East as well. September 2008 trying to negotiate in his last months in oYce a Middle East peace settlement. I am sorry to say my imagination does not run that far. If that is the Q12 Lord Crickhowell: My next question follows case the greater likelihood is that the American eVort from that. You pointed to one of the very initiatives will fade as the presidential election approaches, as that have been taken elsewhere and how useful they the lame duck syndrome takes stronger root, et have been. The paper that I referred to refers to the cetera, and that, which I would like you to comment very important role of the EU Special on, is perhaps the period during which Europe will Representative in all this. I suppose my question is, make a genuine contribution not to settle for peace, all right, the potential is there. We have done it not in competition with the United States, but to elsewhere. Is it actually beginning or likely to move the whole argument forward on the ground happen and, if so, are we reaching a point where which would be perhaps subsequently part of a there is going to be a greater clarification of EU settlement. policy that is likely to lead to the kind of Mr Sawers: I have three comments there. First, the contribution that we have made in the other cases? precedents from previous US administrations show Listening to you, I get the impression that there is that the authority of the United States President potential; we could do it because we have done it remains powerful through to the end of the term and elsewhere, but up to now it has still not happened. President Clinton actually came rather close to Do you think it is going to happen? making a very important breakthrough on this issue 3676421001 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

6 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey in his last months as President. The present US dangerous game to play, but there is the possibility administration, may not follow Clinton’s lead for the European Union to engage itself on these final necessarily, but equally they may make a greater status issues and try and shape the debate, a bit like commitment in their last two years on this issue than we did in 1981 as Lord Hannay describes. they have done in previous years. Secondly, I would say that even if they cannot actually achieve the goal Q14 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Dealing with of a two-State solution, the act of making a political Hamas, some tried to draw an analogy between the V e ort is in itself important. The commitment to need to deal with Hamas and dealing with the IRA, resolving this issue and direct regular engagement of yet they have not been particularly helpful, I notice, senior members of the administration, like Secretary and even the much acclaimed statement of Khaled Rice, itself helps create an atmosphere in the Middle Mish’al given from still said in eVect, “But East where western interests collectively can be better I will not deal with Israel in terms of recognising or managed, respecting the centrality of the Palestinian admitting it”, and following the latest atrocity in question to the interests of the people who live in the Eilat the Hamas leadership said it was “legitimate”. region, particularly in the Arab world. Thirdly, on Do you think that the three principles which have whether the European Union can make a step been the road block to dealing with Hamas, the forward, I can see, Lord Hannay, the direction which recognition of Israel, the acceptance of previous you are suggesting we take, that the European Union commitments and the renunciation of violence, need might somehow define or give more detail to where to be modified in any way? the final status issues might be resolved and make it Mr Sawers: No, I do not think they do need to be easier for the parties to come to that. I do not exclude modified. I think the Quartet principles are very that. I think the disengagement of Gaza, for example, important and represent our values as well as our has helped give shape to some of the final status policy. I deplore what the leader of Hamas said about issues. For example, in Gaza the 1967 border was the bombing in Eilat and also his continued refusal to recognised. The settlements that were inside that recognise the reality of the state of Israel. There have border were withdrawn and the settlers were been continuing eVorts to create a national unity relocated. I do not think on the West Bank the 1967 government between the various parties in Palestine, border will be followed identically as there are three but I do not think they are close to a conclusion. large settlement blocks which will almost certainly Fatah and President Abbas are clearly committed to stay as part of Israel. It is possible that the European the Quartet principles themselves and they know that Union could take forward our expectation as to the international community is not going to be able where the outcome of those final status issues should to co-operate and work with a Palestinian be, for example, once a border is agreed between government that is not committed to renouncing Palestinian and Israeli leaders then the future for violence, recognising Israel and upholding previous settlements which are inside that border should, one commitments, including the road map commitments. possibility would be, follow the Gaza model, and I I am not sure, my Lord Chairman, quite what Lord think that is quite likely myself, speaking personally. Anderson is suggesting but we are not on the point of Another question is the right of return of refugees. It changing our policy on Hamas at this stage. is not realistic to think that the 1948 refugees are going to be able to return fully to the state of Israel. Q15 Lord Anderson of Swansea: I can sum up that We could speculate about where that comes out. argument on the basis of the dealings with the IRA, Maybe it would be useful for the European Union to a terrorist organisation, that progress can only be Y elaborate that more clearly, but the two most di cult made if one somehow sets aside the Quartet of the final status issues, the question of the borders principles and has negotiations, direct or indirect, to and the question of Jerusalem, are matters where bring Hamas into the dialogue. there needs to be further exploration by the United Mr Quarrey: I wonder if I might add something, my States and by the parties themselves as to where the Lord Chairman. It is our information that President solutions lie. On the borders there will have to be Abbas has worked very hard and has come very close some compensation between the two sides if land at least three times to forming a national unity which was Palestinian before 1967 is incorporated government based on the Quartet’s three principles into the state of Israel. On the question of Jerusalem, and the Prime Minister was careful in signalling, President Clinton came up with an expression for when he was in the region in September, that the UK dealing with the final status of Jerusalem: that which would engage with a government which was based on is Arab is Palestinian and that which is Jewish is the Quartet’s three principles. Every time President Israeli. The situation around Jerusalem is extremely Abbas has been able to bring Hamas close to a deal diYcult. I do not think the European Union can in negotiation they have frustrated those easily wade in and define where the borders of negotiations, for example, by inserting a clause about Jerusalem should be. I think that would be a rather only accepting agreements deemed to be in the 3676421001 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence 7

1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey

Palestinian national interest, which would render Mr Sawers: I hope I did not say we aspire to a lead meaningless the acceptance of the Quartet principles. role. I said we aspire to a significant role. I think the We have been careful not to be absolutist about this EU role in the Quartet is important because it builds but to try to assess the direction in which Hamas may the European Union into a structure of consultation be moving and I think President Abbas has made within the international community. It is not just the some genuine, and frankly heroic, eVorts to move meeting of Quartet Principals, such as the one that is Hamas in that direction. taking place tomorrow where Secretary Rice and the UN Secretary-General and Minister Lavrov will be Q16 Lord Anderson of Swansea: And the response to meeting, including with the European Union team of Eilat was totally unhelpful. Solana and the Presidency. That is a very important Mr Quarrey: Exactly that. step forward. Second is the infrastructure below that. The European Union has a Special Representative, Q17 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Can I just ask one Marc Otte, who works very closely on a daily basis point about the three criteria? Two of them always with his counterparts in other members of the seemed to me to be absolutely rock solid but the one Quartet and in working on the ground. Thirdly, at about recognition seems to me to float in a rather the moment we have as EU Presidency the Germans dangerously vague area because recognition can who have more standing on this issue than most other either mean a technical international law recognition Member States, and in many ways German policy in which you recognise a state within certain borders towards the Middle East is extremely close to British or it can mean recognising that you are dealing with policy, so we have an opportunity in the period ahead a reality. The second of those I suspect is what we are for particular influence from the European Union on all trying to say Hamas have got to do, but, of course, US thinking, and I think the meeting between by using the word “recognition” we imply that they Chancellor Merkel and President Bush recently, are also being asked to do the first and that is what where Chancellor Merkel talked at great length with has given me some concern. I do not know whether President Bush and after which President Bush this concern is at all shared. I am not suggesting you reiterated his commitment to the Quartet as the can change it because it is all written in stone. vehicle for taking forward international policy. These Mr Sawers: The word “recognition” does carry that are signs of where the European Union can have ambiguity but Palestine is not yet a state and traction. It is not always the same with every therefore it is not in a position to recognise other Presidency, of course not, but I think the states. What we want is for Hamas to recognise the combination of the German Presidency, the reality of the state of Israel and to remove from its established role of Javier Solana and Marc Otte, the lexicon its commitment to the destruction of the state standing they have acquired with the parties and the of Israel, and that strikes me as a reasonable thing to Americans does give us influence. I go back to my ask of a negotiating partner. earlier point to Lord Crickhowell. The European Mr Quarrey: Also, the fact of recognising and Union is not going to supplant or overtake the accepting agreements that the PLO had previously United States in playing the leading role on this but I signed up to would de facto mean a recognition of think we are having increasing importance in shaping Israel without Hamas perhaps having to say it the debate. For example, in advance of Secretary publicly in terms. For example, if they were able to go Rice’s recent visit to the region she was in regular that far we would have recognised that that showed contact with Javier Solana, in regular contact with that the direction of travel was the right one but we the German Presidency, and she also talked to other have not even got that far at this stage. foreign ministers—the British Foreign Minister, the French Foreign Minister and so on, about the Q18 Lord Boyce: I want to ask you something about approach she was going to take. I believe we have what your experience is of the EU participating in the influence both at the level of US commitment and the Quartet, and I think you have answered some of that detailed policies that they are pursuing and that in the question before last, but just on a practical level would not have been the case without the European what is the working relationship between the oYcials Union’s role and our position in the Quartet. of the Member States, the Solana/Rohan camp, and the Quartet? Is it listened to, or is the EU listened to? Does the EU, for example, get consulted or talked to Q19 Lord Boyce: Your answer slightly worries me before, say, the United States launches some because it rather implies that while the Germans have initiative, or does it just go ahead and do it and the the Presidency the EU will have traction. As soon as EU just has to catch up afterwards? I was interested it is somebody else it may not necessarily have that you said that we aspire to taking a significant or traction and therefore it washes away again, so this is a leading role. Do you really see that aspiration being really a bilateral Germany and the US rather than the realised while the US has such a strong part? EU and I suspect, from what you have just said, 3676421001 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

8 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey rather the former, and it depends who has the Mr Quarrey: Yes, I think they have worked well Presidency. together, for example, the EU position that has held Mr Sawers: Members of the Committee, my Lord since the election of Hamas last year, which has a Chairman, will know this better than I: who holds the tough political position based around the Quartet position of the Presidency does have a role, but the three principles, but then on the humanitarian side an European institutions, the Council Secretariat under approach through the Temporary International Solana, the Commission, which has given very Mechanism, which is aimed at alleviating generous sums of money, institutionally have a role humanitarian consequences from our inability to here which survives and continues whoever is in the deal with the PA Government, I think reflects a Presidency. We have a particular opportunity now balanced approach and I think that reflects as well because of the renewed US commitment and because the Council Secretariat side and the Commission we have a very strong Presidency committed to working together on this. As we look forward, policies which are frankly very close to our own hopefully, to progress on the political track, I think national policies and which have been the basis for the Commission are very clear that they want to play the EU policy over recent years. I think there is an an important role in that by supporting the opportunity there. development of viable Palestinian institutions. It has been the Government’s view, and certainly the Prime Minister’s view, that that is an essential part of future Q20 Lord Boyce: Possibly working in the Quartet or progress. not, do you think there is any scope for the EU to launch any small-scale confidence-building measures Q22 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: There have been which could help to improve the situation? rumours about secret talks going on between the Mr Sawers: Yes, I think there are a number of areas Israelis and the Syrians. Is there any truth in that? where we can help. We are supporting the oYce of the What do you think might come out of that and could Palestinian President, for example, in helping build the EU play any role in making that any better? up the structures around President Abbas so he can Mr Sawers: I do not know anything about secret talks be more eVective as President. We are helping with between Israelis and Syrians apart from what I read his security. We are working with the Americans on in the newspapers and I do not know whether those their security plan, and I am delighted to see the US individuals are representing their respective administration have put in a bid to Congress for governments or not. There has been an attempt by a some $86 million worth of support for the Palestinian number of countries, including our own, to persuade Security Forces, which is a significant advance in the the Syrians to change their approach on a whole American approach in terms of providing practical range of Middle Eastern issues, including their support alongside that from the European Union. approach on Palestine, to end the house room they There may be other ideas, and I do not know if David give to Palestinian terrorist groups like the has some ideas. Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas’s military wing, Mr Quarrey: I think there are things like the ESDP and to support the policies of the international missions themselves, and I think particularly of community. At some point there will need to be a Rafah. As John said earlier, it has not always been negotiation between Israel and Syria on their own easy there but I think it has helped having some co- border and to establish a peace treaty between the operation between the Israelis and the Palestinians two of them, but I think we should expect there to be V there which will be useful in the long term because it e orts outside government to explore whether this is helps to build confidence. I think if we can get things possible. As to what you are referring to, Lord moving on the EU COPPS with the civil police again Hamilton, I do not know whether that is the case or not and to what extent that is authorised but it is that will help build capacity as well. There is also a important for there to be some channels of great deal of UK and EU activity which is working communication with the Syrians in order to keep on with civil society, which is aimed at education, which reminding them what the international community works on things like some tertiary education links, expects of them and what is available to them if only which also help around the margins perhaps but also they were to change their behaviour. help build confidence as well. I think there is a continuing important role for the EU to support that. Q23 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Perhaps I could just go back to something that came up in a recent Q21 Chairman: Do you think there is suYcient co- question about the Council Secretariat and the operation between the work which is being done by Commission, but this is a wider question. Do you the Commission in the Middle East and Palestine and think that we are moving into a more hopeful period the role of the EU Special Representative who is in which there is greater activity, at least for the representing the Council? preparation of a settlement in the Middle East if not 3676421001 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

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1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey for the immediate achievement of it, and that the Q24 Lord Crickhowell: Following up on Lord three key players, the UN, the EU and the United Hannay’s point, in an earlier report by this States, have got negotiating teams that are properly Committee we said, “We welcome the Commission structured to handle this sort of much more intensive proposal that there should be a high-level strategic involvement with Israel and the various Arab states planning meeting at the beginning of each Presidency and so on, because, looking at it from the outside, I between the Presidency, Commission and High think I am a bit inclined to answer no, they have not, Representative enabling issues of coherence and the to all three of them. The Americans seem to have overall direction of EU external action for the nothing except periodic visits by Secretary Rice duration of the six month Presidency to be discussed, which are liable, of course, to be diverted if she is in order that the EU institutions and the Member required to play a high profile role in some other part States understand each other’s priorities”. The of the world, Iraq or whatever it is. The EU is doing Minister in response said that that had happened pretty well with a kind of push-me-pull-you set-up, under the Finnish Presidency. Has it happened at the but is it really punching its full weight, is it really start of the German Presidency as we enter the next structured properly, and the UN has been virtually phase? absent for some time in this Middle East but Mr Sawers: What has happened is that there have apparently the new Secretary-General wishes to play been intensive contacts between the German a more prominent role. I wonder what you think Government and the Commission and the Council about whether the structures are adequate to the Secretariat in advance of their taking up their political aspirations that are being put on them. Presidency, and there was a visit, as is usual at the Mr Sawers: I do not entirely share your analysis, beginning of the Presidency, by the Commission Lord Hannay, of the US commitment. I think there is President and Dr Solana to Berlin to do precisely as very deep engagement at levels below Secretary Rice. you say, to co-ordinate at the highest level the The Assistant Secretary for the Middle East, the priorities for the coming six months. I cannot say for Deputy National Security Adviser pay regular visits sure, Lord Crickhowell, whether the Germans have and are constantly in touch with the parties. They followed precisely the practice of the previous and their teams are working full time on this issue, so Finnish Presidency, but I can assure you that there it does go beyond, as you say, the occasional visits of have been very close contacts and I think co- Condoleezza Rice herself. I do not think there is yet ordination is really rather good. in any of those three players, the US, the European Union and the United Nations, a plan for a new Q25 Lord Anderson of Swansea: You have negotiating team; they have not got that far yet. mentioned some of the operational instruments Secretary Rice is planning to go back to the region available to the EU: Rafah, COPPS and so on. again later this month. We should see what progress Turning specifically to the financial side, in your she can make then. If she is able to take this further judgment how eVective have they been? What has and establish some negotiating process between the been their impact in giving the European Union two sides then the sorts of negotiating teams that you weight within the Quartet? are talking about I think will be necessary. On the Mr Sawers: It is diYcult to say how much political European Union side, of course, there has been a influence you purchase with humanitarian assistance. proposal, of which we have been supportive, to merge I would not like to say there is a clear link between the the responsibilities of the Commission and the two of them, but I think the European Union’s Council Secretariat in foreign policy so that there is a generosity, the collective generosity of Europe, as I single figure, whatever the person is going to be say, ƒ680 million in 2006 alone, stands as a called, who has the authority of the Council of demonstration of our political commitment and of Ministers and the financial resources and expertise of the level of popular support for European the Commission. That is an idea which is still out involvement in this, which has an influence with other there and I think that would improve the European parties and which means the European Union is able Union’s cohesion and eVectiveness on this sort of to do things vis-a`-vis supporting the Palestinian issue. For the European Union to speak with a single Authority and the Palestinian leaders that other voice rather than two voices would be an advantage. actors are not able to do, so it does buy us some On the United Nations side, I think it is the intention influence on that side of the equation. of the new Secretary-General to appoint a special envoy to the Middle East and refresh that role, and I Q26 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Have the lessons think that would be an important contribution as been learned from other financial transfers? We well, but I do not think we have got to the stage yet learned, for example, from the IMF in 2003 that $900 of negotiating teams for a new negotiation, although million passed into the private coVers of the if the eVorts bear fruit we may get there in the months Palestinian leadership. OLAF, the anti-fraud section to come. of the EU, was particularly ineVective in relation to 3676421001 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

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1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey dealing with that. We need more transparency; where contacts between the European Union and the welcome the creative side of the Temporary Arab world and the Arab League itself were International Mechanism, but have the lessons been influential. With the Gulf Cooperation Council there learned in relation to the total misuse of EU is the start of a political relationship. Given the taxpayers’ money over the earlier period? common concerns that we have in Europe (with Iran Mr Quarrey: I think the lessons have been learned. As and its growing and often malign influence in the I mentioned the last time I was before the Committee, region) we have a very large overlapping agenda with it is worth recording as well that the EU had the Gulf Cooperation Council. They are also keen to suspended direct budgetary assistance to the see progress in the Palestinian question. It has been Palestinian Authority before the election which quite interesting: one development of the last year has brought Hamas to power precisely because of our been the way in which the United States has begun to concerns about how the then Fatah-run Palestinian engage and listen carefully to the views of the Gulf Authority was using some of those funds and our Cooperation Council and countries like Jordan and concerns about maladministration and so on. We Egypt, collectively, as a sub-group within the Arab have been in this extraordinary position since then world, and I think they have had an influence on US with the Hamas-led PA government and the thinking and US policy which has been very much Temporary International Mechanism replacing compatible with European Union influence. budgetary support during that time. There are very Working more closely with these groupings, with detailed controls within the Temporary International these countries, helps advance a common approach Mechanism which have been designed principally to to the problems with which we are dealing. ensure that the funds provided are not misused politically, if I may put it that way, in this current situation. I think we hope nationally and EU Q28 Lord Lea of Crondall: When we were discussing partners will hope that we can learn some of the the scope of what we will be doing, there was a view lessons from the TIM and apply that to future emerging, to some degree, that we could not help but funding when the situation is normalised between the look a little bit outside the peace process per se for EU and the PA. Quite how that will apply in practice, exactly the reasons you have been describing. In what I could not honestly tell you at this stage, but I think sense would you say that all the rhetoric from there is a very strong feeling within the EU that funds Tehran, for example, and somehow the casus belli of in the past have either been abused and wasted or many other issues being to do with Israel, for have occasionally have been used, for example, to implicating the Palestinians, or however one wants to fund projects which have later been destroyed by the decide it, is germane to this. If a crisis is emerging Israelis. So I think there is quite a concern to ensure about Israel/Iran—nuclear weapons on one side, that the large sums of money that we will need to nuclear weapons are needed on the other side because bring to deploy to support the required process are there are nuclear weapons on this side, et cetera, et used properly and I suspect that some of the lessons cetera—how far does all of that bear on what we are we have learned from the TIM may contribute to that talking about? learning process for the next phase. Mr Sawers: I think very significantly. When you visit Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My question has been Israel or, indeed, the Arab world, one of the greatest largely answered, my Lord Chairman, and I think it concerns—possibly in Israel the greatest concern—is better to go on to the next one. not the Palestinians, Syria or the Arab world generally, it is Iran. The activities of Iran in supporting extremist groups in Arab countries—in Q27 Chairman: There is this question of the the Lebanon, in Iraq, as we have seen—has raised the contribution of the EU bilateral relations, not only level of concern and certainly has raised the impact of with Israel but also with the Palestinian and with the nuclear file and the implications for the Arab other neighbouring states and international world and the Middle East as a whole should Iran organisations, such as the Arab League and the Gulf succeed in acquiring nuclear weapons technology or, Cooperation Council. How far has that been useful, worse still, nuclear weapons themselves. The rhetoric as well as a direct input through the Quartet? of President Ahmandinejad is one thing: we cannot Mr Sawers: My Lord Chairman, I think it is part of ignore it; is it very damaging; and it certainly would the fabric of the European Union’s engagement in be wrong to assume that it is does not carry some the region. The Arab League is a completely diVerent meaning. I think it has raised again the concern that organisation from the European Union but it is an Israel’s very existence could be brought into question organisation that brings together Arab countries as a by enemies in the region—a prospect which really has whole and which has an important role in not been there for much of the last 35 years but was establishing the formal policies and positions in the very much there in the early years of Israel’s Arab world which are held in very high regard, such existence. We are deeply concerned about Iranian as the conclusions of the Beirut Summit of 2002, intentions, about Iranian behaviour in the region and 3676421001 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

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1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey about Iranian aspirations to develop its nuclear very wise and the standoV that exists in the Lebanon programme in ways which we are not convinced are seems to add to that doubt, but I am still not clear in entirely peaceful. We can only interpret Iranian my mind—and perhaps you could cast some light on activity on the nuclear file as being to acquire nuclear it—how the Lebanese dimension is to be handled in weapons technology and possibly nuclear weapons a period when we are trying to make overall progress. themselves and this would be deeply destabilising in The second question about Iran really follows on the region. Whether the common concerns between from your replies to Lord Lea. Having identified Iran Israelis and Arabs and Europeans and Americans as a major spoiler in all this, having identified it over will lead to faster progress on the Palestinian the years as a country which has played quite a role question is a matter of speculation, but I think is an and which is playing a bigger role in all this, how is added factor destabilising the region and an added that issue to be handled in practical terms if you are concern for all the countries in the region, and, as we not talking to the country in question? The whole saw last summer in the conflict in the Lebanon, an issue of talking to Iran has got itself snarled up over Iranian armed group in the Arab world can set back the nuclear matter. It does seem to me a trifle diYcult the prospects for peace and for stability very severely. to hope to get Iran into a more cooperative spirit if We are seeing this to a large extent in Iraq as well. I we are not even actually talking to them very much. am not saying the problems in Iraq are entirely Mr Sawers: With your permission, perhaps I could created by Iran, but Iran could take a very diVerent ask David Quarrey to answer the question on the approach which could establish much better Lebanon. On Iran, we have of course been talking to prospects for establishing stability in Iraq than we the Iranians throughout this period of diYculty and have at the moment. I share Lord Lea’s concern that tension, even after the election of President there are new factors here which have a real bearing Ahmadinejad 18 months ago. The combination of on stability and peace in the region which we have to engagement and pressure on the Iranians is beginning address and we have to factor into our own policies. to have an eVect in Iran. We saw in the elections in mid-December that the hard-line faction did really Q29 Lord Lea of Crondall: You mentioned the EU rather badly and I think that is because of having a strong role (in Britain, France and disenchantment with the policies of President Germany) vis-a`-vis Iran—although that has had its Ahmadinejad’s government. ups and downs—but, clearly, on our own inquiry here, when you say it can only complicate what is Q31 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Mainly economic, already a very complicated situation is to sort of though. spatch-cock in—which is probably the wrong Mr Sawers: They are mainly economic, but the expression, but I will use it—something to do with economic policies have largely failed. There is a good Israel and Iran, even though it is the elephant not yet degree of economic incompetence on the part of the recognised as being in the room. Iranian government that has contributed to them, Mr Sawers: Lord Lea, we have to deal with life as it but there is also great concern in the international is. What we face now is an Iran which is posing an community that companies and banks should not be increasing threat to the security of the region and associated with Iran and certainly should not do which is causing particular security concerns for the anything which might advance financing for State of Israel because of its support for terrorist terrorism or financing for proliferation. There is no groups and because of its aspirations, as we see them, money available for new investment in Iran at the to develop nuclear weapons. Any Israeli prime moment, so their oil production is declining. It is even minister and Israeli leader is bound to be deeply diYcult for banks to be involved in normal business concerned by such activity. It is bound to be a factor. with Iran, so ordinary Iranian businessmen are Obviously it would be much better if we had an having diYculty getting letters of credit and so on, Iranian leadership which was committed to a two- and this is adding to the economic pressure on Iran. I State solution, which was committed to countering do not think the popular support of the government’s terrorist groups and was not causing instability in the nuclear policy, in particular their stated policy of region, but that is not what we have got, and we have acquiring civil nuclear power, has diminished at all. to deal with the Iran which presents itself. What is getting across to the Iranians is that, if they want to have a more normal relationship with the rest Q30 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: In the past the of the world, including an economic and commercial Lebanon has tended to be treated as a special case relationship with the rest of the world, they have to and not really part of the Middle East Peace Process: address our concerns on issues like their nuclear something which could not be dealt with in advance aspirations. My Lord Chairman, Lord Hannay is of the Middle East Peace Process but which would alluding, I am sure, to the US policy of not talking to sort of slot in all right when it was done. The events Iran. We have seen some progress there as well. The last summer cast some doubt about whether that was European policy has had some ups and downs. We 3676421001 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

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1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey made some good progress at one stage; we were then the European Neighbourhood Policy, possibly to be set back by the election of the new Iranian leadership. concentrated on during the Portuguese Presidency in Our response has been to engage the Americans, the the second half of this year, how relevant is the Russians and the Chinese more fully with our own revised European Neighbourhood Policy to the approach and that has led to a change in the Middle East Peace Process? American policy. They are not yet talking to one Mr Sawers: There is an important connection. At the another but Secretary Rice has said on behalf of the tenth anniversary event under our presidency just US Administration that if Iran meets the over a year ago, a new direction in the Barcelona requirements of the Security Council and suspends its Process was established which is geared more enrichment programme and most sensitive nuclear towards support for modernisation and reform in the technology activities then the United States will Arab world. Under the Commission’s plans for engage with its partners in Europe and Russia and spending the very generous sums of money available China in negotiating with Iran. As we have seen with for the Mediterranean region, the proportion going the six-party talks with North Korea, to engage the to issues like good governance, education, private United States in a multilateral process also provides sector reform have gone up from 25% of the budget opportunities for some bilateral contacts at the in the previous framework to over 50% in the new margins of those multilateral processes, so there has framework for the period 2007 to 2010. I think it is in been a change in the US approach. The US and Iran these areas like education and good governance that have worked together on other issues, like we can establish better conditions in the Arab world . I was at a conference the other day in for the sort of free debate; for more open societies; for Berlin where the United States and Iranian more successful economies that lead to a more representatives were taking part in the same meeting sophisticated policy towards the Middle East than we and contributing to the same objectives on have seen in the past. It is an indirect link, but I think Afghanistan. There are issues where the two the level of commitment, and the commitment to countries need to have more contact, such as over modernise countries in the Mediterranean region; to Iraq, but I think this will happen step by step. If Iran help them pursue their own modernisation plans, is meets its obligations under the Security Council that much greater under the new scheme than it was Resolution then we will have direct contact between under the old one. Iran and Washington on the most sensitive of issues, and I think that will be something to be welcomed, Q33 Lord Anderson of Swansea: As you have but the next step is for the Iranians to take. conceded, that is the regional context. What Mr Quarrey: On Lebanon, I would like first to note specifically does the process oVer for Israel/Palestine? that, in the context of the Committee’s inquiries, it Mr Quarrey: Realistically, not a great deal at this was the strength of the EU’s bilateral relations with stage. One of the things that has frustrated the Israel and the Lebanon last summer which allowed Barcelona Process has been the fact that almost all, the EU to play the key role in bolstering UNIFIL, certainly high-level meetings end up in a rather sterile which was then the essential pre-condition to debate around issues to do with Israel Palestine— achieving the ceasefire. The EU’s policy of building a partly because the Israelis are there with their near more balanced relationship with Israel paid neighbours, which they are not often. So far we have dividends in that context in helping achieve the not found a very eVective way of making then ceasefire. In terms of how Lebanon is handled in the Barcelona Process contribute to the Middle East next phase of the context of the wider peace process, Peace Process. As John says, the contribution so far our best focus remains Security Council Resolution is indirect, but I think there is a powerful incentive in 1701, which, while it does not address in terms the play. Perhaps one of the strongest forces for peace issues that would need to be covered for peace between Israel and the Palestinians is the desire of between Israel and the Lebanon, I think the issues each party for normalisation of their relations with raised there, including Shebaa farms, the the outside world. The EU by having an increasingly demilitarisation of Southern Lebanon, the control of eVective European Neighbourhood Policy is able to legitimate armed forces of Lebanon across the whole hold up the prospect of that normalisation, so it is country, are in fact the issues on which we need to useful as an incentive there, but the realistic answer to make progress in order to create the conditions for your direct question is that so far Barcelona has not peace between Israel and Lebanon. I think our focus made a very significant direct contribution. is likely to remain on trying to implement 1701 so that the conditions are therefore improved for when we can achieve a wider peace process. Q34 Lord Lea of Crondall: On one question— because you have had notice of it and commented on Q32 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Since its inception it indirectly—perhaps you would write to the in 1995, the Barcelona Process/Euromed has been Chairman if the statistics are complex, but I think it relatively disappointing. Now we have a revision of would be quite interesting to compare, if it is 3676421001 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

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1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey possible—and it must be possible in some way—the Mr Sawers: I agree with that in principle, Lord Lea. European Union sums of money going one way or Of course it is inevitable that there are going to be another and the American. Some people say that the diVerences between the Member States and this Americans provide the policy and we provide the Government and I personally would not want that money and it will be quite interesting to know how situation to change. It is important that diVerent true that is. Member States of the European Union can act in Mr Sawers: I am very happy to write to you, my Lord diVerent ways and respond to their own particular Chairman, to give you some details of the level of political links with the region in support of a broad financial support that has been given. Lord Lea is European Union policy to which all Member States correct in alluding to the point that the European are signed up. I think the existence of a common Union gives much more generously to the Palestinian European Union policy towards the region is very leadership and the Palestinian Authority than do the important in harnessing the collective European United States. The United States do have a eVort. Yes, there are nuances. I have mentioned substantial programme of support for the UN Relief before that the German approach is quite close to the and Works Agency, which is the main vehicle for British approach. There are other countries, humanitarian assistance. As I have mentioned particularly in the Mediterranean who feel greater earlier, they are bidding now for some more money to pressures and greater connections with the Arab support Palestinian security operations, which is very world and the countries in North Africa than they do welcome. The US assistance has traditionally, as we with Israel and the countries of the Gulf. But each all know, gone to Israel, and they give very significant country is able to use its links in diVerent ways. subventions to Israel in support of Israeli security— Sometimes these diVerences have to be worked which are welcome in themselves and which through; sometimes it means that the level of clarity contribute to Israel’s own security and prosperity, in the European Union position is slightly less than it which is an important factor here. In terms of total might otherwise have been. But I think the sums committed to the region, I think both the multiplicity of links and activities that European United States and the European Union give very Union countries can bring among themselves—the generously indeed, but they give in diVerent ways and role the French can play, the Germans, ourselves, the to diVerent parties, which has a bearing on the Central European countries, the Mediterranean influence and role that each side can play politically. countries, the Scandinavian countries—all bring The American willingness to be active on the something slightly diVerent to the party. To harness Palestinian side is gradually growing, and that is to be that within a single policy I think is the right way to welcomed. As I have described, I think the European go. You mentioned French policy. French policy is Union approach to Israel has become much more quite influenced and driven by the character of the broadly based and much more sophisticated over the President in France and the President in France is last five or 10 years than was the case beforehand. If I may say so, it is a bit of a caricature to think that the going to change in the months ahead. I suspect French policy will evolve as well. We will see. But we European Union pays the money but somebody else V decides the policy. The fact is that we all have have a common European approach and di erent diVerent roles in determining the policy and both the national assets which we can use to deploy. United States and Europe give very generously but in Lord Lea of Crondall: Thank you very much. diVerent ways. Chairman: That leads on very well to a question from Q36 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Do you not think Lord Hannay. that is perhaps slightly complacent, given the Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I feel we have covered extremely cogent arguments you advance for saying the ground. why the handling of Iran has been enormously Chairman: In that case, I wonder whether we could improved by having a group of Member States who come to a question on the Member States and the worked as a single team, eVectively, with Solana. European Union, again from Lord Lea. After all, in the past there were quite serious diVerences between Member States in policy towards Q35 Lord Lea of Crondall: We have been very Iran and that was thoroughly unhelpful: various impressed by the quality and range of the evidence we Member States at various stages in the Iran saga of its have had, but, it is often said that London and Paris relations with the outside world have actually gone at are instinctively starting from diVerent places. Could cross-purposes and so on. That is certainly true in the you say anything about that? The coherence of the case of the Middle East Peace Process and certain EU must at some point along the line be greater if we activities by various Member States. Surely there have solidity of the general strategy—which is self- does need to be a bit more—I am not saying a evident, but could you comment on it—by the replication of the EU 3 to deal with the Middle East, Member States. which would be intensely irritating to countries who 3676421001 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:11:42 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

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1 February 2007 Mr John Sawers and Mr David Quarrey are not in the EU 3, but surely some approach that is whereas 10–15 years ago the diVerent eVorts of a bit less: “Let a thousand flowers bloom”—or, European countries could often cancel one another rather, let 27 flowers bloom—“and it is all fine” is out, I do not think that is the case any more. What going to be needed. happens is that we reinforce one another in the work Mr Sawers: I do agree with that. As the European that we do. The discipline of the Common Foreign Union gets larger, the possibility of working and and Security Policy actually helps that and there are negotiating policies at 27 or more gets more and more informal mechanisms behind the scenes which help diYcult. We will find diVerent groups of countries ensure that the diVerences of detail are hammered out coming together with a common interest in diVerent behind closed doors. areas to take the lead role; subject, of course, to Chairman: Mr Sawers and Mr Quarrey, may I, on general support for the broad policy framework behalf of the Committee, say how very much we have which they are pursuing. We have that on Iran, as appreciated the time you have spent with us this you say, and there are informal mechanisms which morning. As I said at the beginning, you are our first we and the French and Germans and Italian and witnesses and you have certainly provided us with a Spaniards use on this issue, the Middle East, and they very good basis for the remaining part of our study are informal, they are at working level, but it is a way and also a rather clear position both of European of clearing out some of the diVerences so that we can Union policy and the role played in it by the UK. create a common approach. It is fair to say that, Thank you again very much indeed. 3676421002 Page Type [SO] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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THURSDAY 8 FEBRUARY 2007

Present Anderson of Swansea, L Lea of Crondall, L Chidgey, L Roper, L (Chairman) Crickhowell, L Symons of Vernham Dean, B Hannay of Chiswick, L Tomlinson, L

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Mr Yossi Mekelberg, Head of International Relations and Development Studies, the British American College London, and Associate Fellow, Middle East Programme, Chatham House; and Dr Ahmad Khalidi, Senior Associate Member, St Antony’s College, Oxford University; examined.

Q37 Chairman: Mr Mekelberg and Dr Khalidi, we self-serving and, in the case of the United States, oil- are very pleased to see you. What I would like to do seeking. To cast a pearl of wisdom in your direction, would be to ask you if you would like to introduce My Lord Chairman, force gets you many places but yourselves, just briefly, to the Committee and if you nowhere ain’t one of them. Very often you end up have brief, initial statements, if you would make using force and finding yourself in a position which those before we go on with our questions: Mr really you did not want to be in. The second point I Mekelberg? would like to make has to do with the politics of Mr Mekelberg: Yossi Mekelberg. I am Associate exclusion. In the Middle East there are natural forces, Fellow at Chatham House on the Middle East forces of nationalism, Islamism, local regionalism, Programme and I am also, with my students here, pan-Arabism, but they are part of the natural fabric Head of the International Relations Department at of the area. If you are trying to exclude these forces Regent’s College. from the political process, if you try to crush them, if indeed you try to use force against them, you will not Q38 Chairman: Have you got a short statement you succeed; they have to be incorporated into the would like to make or would you like to go straight process. You need to engage, contain and then to the questions? constrain these forces; these are the fundamentals of Mr Mekelberg: I think, straight to the questions. dealing with the area and avoiding the politics of exclusion. Finally, on the issue of peace-making, we have potentially, and I will get back to this later, an Q39 Chairman: Dr Khalidi? alignment of forces that just might be opening up for Dr Khalidi: I am Ahmad Khalidi. I am a Palestinian a new attempt at peace-making in the area. My pearl from an old Jerusalemite family. I am a Senior of wisdom here is that unless the outside world is Associate Member at St Antony’s College, Oxford. I determined to help and determined to make this live and work in this country. I have been active in succeed it is better not to try than to try and fail, it is Palestinian peace-making and writing and observing better not to try at all than to try and fail again. We the Middle East for three and a half decades. I would saw the cost of failure in 2000; another failure this like to make a short statement, if I may. Surveying time would have an even higher cost. Unless the the wreckage of the Middle East as it is today, based international community is really determined, on my 35 years of experience of the Middle East, including of course the United States and the EU, to there are three points I would like to highlight today. bring about an eVective peace process which ends this The first has to do with the use of force. Force, as we conflict, it is better, in my opinion, to scale down the know, is a very blunt instrument, to use a cliche´; prospects of the peace process rather than enlarge nonetheless, it is true that, particularly in the Middle them, because failure has a very, very high cost. East, the use of force in many guises has been very counterproductive. Force is blunt, and in the case of the Arab-Israeli conflict, as demonstrated by the war Q40 Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr Khalidi. in the Lebanon in the summer, I think the Israeli Are you happy that we move straight on now to the use of excessive force has only demonstrated to us questions? how, rather than being instrumental, this is Mr Mekelberg: Actually, the questions reflect what I counterproductive and elicits a response which is want to say. based on revenge and retaliation. The second element which has to do with force is that when it comes from Q41 Chairman: What I would draw your attention an external power and tries to reshape the region to in these questions is that we are concerned about almost invariably it fails; we have the example of the European Union and the Middle East, as we are Afghanistan and Iraq. Force, and particularly when of course a Committee which is considering the it is used by the West, is seen to be biased, pro-Israeli, Common Foreign and Security Policy of the 3676421002 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi

European Union. I would be grateful if you would Palestinians and we have two Governments which like, both of you, to indicate how you characterise the lack legitimacy in order to sign any peace agreement, current situation regarding the Middle East peace a permanent, final status agreement. On the Israeli process. Mr Mekelberg? side, especially following the fiasco of Lebanon, the Mr Mekelberg: One of the problems with the second Israelis are waiting for the Winograd Report, the and third points which Ahmad made is this issue of commission by High Court Judge Winograd, and the peace process. We had nearly 14 years of process whether this Government can survive at all is at the without peace and the problem of setting pre- mercy of this committee, and anyway the political conditions all the time without converting it into a system is not very stable right now. There are other peace agreement. How can we move much quicker in issues; you have probably read. The President is a more determined way into signing peace, assuming about to face trial, other ministers, so it is not a kind that we are all talking about a two-state solution? If of Government that I can see can take bold decisions this is still on the cards and we agree that there is a in the direction of peace. On the Palestinian side, and solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict based on a I am sure Ahmad is in a better position to deal with two-state solution, and we have not moved to the Palestinian side, there is a dual, if not triple, something which is damage limitation and conflict administration now between the PLO itself, which is management, or alternatively to a one-state solution, the legitimate source of negotiations with the Israelis, which I am definitely not a supporter of, so if you and then the Palestinian Authority which is divided believe that a two-state solution is the one that can at least between the Fatah and the Hamas and guarantee security, can guarantee the prosperity of beyond. This does not seem—and what we have seen most people, and then we have to take into account recently where we have seen clashes occurring and let the wider Middle East, then we need to find a process. us hope that it does not deteriorate into a civil war— One of the questions refers to the Road Map and if it to be a situation which is conducive to a proper peace is still viable, so to make a process where there is no process. It is also the commitment you see. We have emphasis, what we saw since 1993 is an emphasis on too many “Kodak” moments in all these forces. The the process and not enough on the end game, where Secretary of State comes and visits, they all simply it leads to. The Road Map, for the first time there leave, and Abu Mazen, go to Davos and have a were some asking what was the end game, where was meeting, so another photo opportunity. There are it all going to lead. One of the problems now is the too many photo opportunities without the link with regional commitment on any level. If you look at all the real issues, which is, at least to start with, the the main potential participants in such a peace humanitarian issue among the Palestinians, ensuring process, none of them is committed, none of them is security, and beyond it is the general situation, so the capable. For a viable peace process we need viable, general situation right now in the Middle East, which legitimate governments that can function and can I think is also not conducive to the peace process. make decisions. We need it in Israel, we need it in Dr Khalidi: My comment will look at actually two or Palestine, we need the European Union, and you three of the questions together, if you do not mind, know the European Union is a committee and it is rather than one by one, because they are all linked. I probably diYcult, is it Eastern European? Are we have to disagree very slightly with Yossi here. There talking about the Union as a Union or are we talking is a sense at the moment amongst the international about 27 countries? Can we achieve the Common community, including the United States, and certain Foreign and Security Policy on this topic or not, and elements on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides, the United States; wherever we look we cannot see that there may be reasons or an opportunity now to strong enough governments, or capable enough try to get the peace process back on track. The governments that can deal with the peace process. argument stems largely from the view that dealing Let me say, Washington is important; following the with the Arab-Israeli conflict at this juncture will help mid-term elections in the United States it is very to realign forces in the area towards other threats, diYcult to see an administration there that is other perceived threats, ranging from Iran to radical committed day in, day out, week in, week out, for Islam. One of the elements of the Iraq report, the negotiations, mediation and to take the necessary Baker-Hamilton Report, which was not adopted in first step to reach a two-state solution. In Europe it is its entirety but one of the elements which may just a problem to reach a Common Foreign and Security have sunk in to some parts of the administration in Policy. Britain under has played a very Washington, including the State Department, is that, significant role in the peace process; some would say yes, indeed, some attempt to address the Arab-Israeli positive, some others might tell you not. I think Tony conflict will help. The question is what kind of Blair played a significant role in that. He is about to address or management and what direction and what leave oYce. We do not know how the next the outcome is likely to be. The consensus at the administration here in London is going to deal with moment, as far as I understand it, in Washington and the peace process. Then come the Israelis and the within the Foreign Ministry in Israel, is that perhaps 3676421002 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi there is a way in which you can merge phases one and if we hear correctly, they were just recently two of the Road Map and then try to link this to a negotiating and almost what stood between peace very general outline, agreed principles, on what the was the park around the Sea of Galilee, so it is a lot final status would look like. You would move in a of fruit trees and grass and then there is peace. If they clear direction and address Palestinian concerns, agree according to the recent initiative, it is all agreed which have always been, “How can we enter a short of a few things. However, we have to go back to process when we don’t know what the end result will the Barak Government. be?” Here, rather than do a full, comprehensive, final Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Perhaps we status agreement, you set yourself a more limited goal could come on to that. I do not want to crash into of limited principles, a framework of principles, with Lord Crickhowell’s time. I am so sorry. Thank you; a timetable, so you act in two or three phases, that is very helpful. incorporate elements from the Road Map but you elucidate the final status without necessarily having a full final status agreement and you enter into Q43 Lord Crickhowell: Dr Khalidi started by saying negotiations on that later on. The rationale behind “Don’t go for it, if there is no commitment.” A simple this is not only based on perhaps a sense from some of message. Mr Mekelberg started by saying there the Arab countries, the United States and Israel that cannot be any commitment because of the weakness there is another threat looming on the horizon, but of the various parties and the lack of legitimacy. I was also, and precisely because most of the leaders in the a little surprised, but I understand the argument, that area are weak, this may be, in fact, an incentive to the United States and others may wish to go for them to try to achieve something. Part of the something because of the importance of the binding argument says that Ehud Olmert, for instance, needs solution on other problems in the Middle East, Iran, political movement for the Palestinians in order to and so on, may be an opportunity. I could not see, restore his own credibility and justify his own move having heard the first two statements, they gave no away from what he promised his people, which was commitment, there cannot be a commitment, how he was going to do it unilaterally. Now he says that he there could be an opportunity, and then Mr Khalidi is willing to do it through negotiations, and precisely said “Ah, but there could be possibly, if there is a because he is weak there is a need; and the same robust external role and a link with the regional applies to the Palestinian side, although the parties.” Do not we still face the problem of the lack Palestinian side has its own problems, which we can of legitimacy and the extraordinary weakness of the talk about later. The important thing for me here is governments of so many of the crucial parties? Given that although this is an approach which may have the description which was given to us very clearly by some traction, my argument would be that the only Mr Mekelberg about those problems, can we get and way you can get substantial movement on the peace is it wise to go for a first stage, with the rather remote process now is to marry between two things. First, a prospect of it leading eventually to something else, robust external role, not one of pure crisis given the weaknesses that we heard described so management but a really strong, robust, supporting vividly in the opening statements? role from the United States and the EU; and, second, Mr Mekelberg: I think we have been facing even a link-up to the regional dimension, whereby you something else, because actually so far we are talking bring in regional parties, and specifically, in this case, about governments and we ignore the people, Syria. I would say that one of the keys to moving on because if you read surveys we see that both the Palestinian track would be to incorporate Syria Palestinians and Israelis do want peace and they into a broader negotiating process, because this will actually want peace on the basis of a two-state have a positive impact on the Palestinian track, it will solution. It is how we bridge this gap between two increase the pressures on Hamas, it will broaden the things. Both communities or people want peace prospects for peace and it will correspond to what the based on basically what was agreed in Camp David, Arabs have been calling for, for some time, under the Taba, even Geneva. However, they do not believe guise of the Beirut 2002 peace initiative. that the other side want it as much as they do. It is to do two things: firstly, and this is I think where the European Union can do a lot, to try to help through Q42 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Could we education, through all sorts of social projects, it ask Mr Mekelberg whether he agrees with the point makes you see that the other side wants it as well, the about Syria? I thought that was a very important majority of them, because so far we have been point which has just been raised and I would be hijacked by the extremists and on this peace process interested to hear whether you agree with that point? we have been hijacked by the extremists. The other Mr Mekelberg: I agree in principle. I think it will not thing is how to translate this into votes when there are work. I think, if we can look for a comprehensive elections. At least 70% of people on both sides see peace process, which includes Syria and will take that they can also vote for parties they support, Syria outside the conflict equation, it is desirable, and because if one of the anomalies of it you go and say 3676421002 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi it, you know in service, “I want peace, I want to back Dr Khalidi: I am glad you asked me that question a two-state solution,” and you support parties that because I think it is very important to understand the do not support this, because of the lack of trust, role of Iran in this. Iran is a player on the Arab-Israeli because they do not think that anyone sees their scene, it is a player in diVerent ways, it is a player point. Before it is possible let us support parties that through its natural extensions via the Shi’ites of are strong, to show the other side how powerful we south Lebanon. Iran, incidentally, has always had are, and then if ever we will be able to we will go to strong relations with the Shi’ites of south Lebanon. It negotiations. We have to bridge these two gaps which is not something that has come about as a result of I think are crucial. Whether, as Ahmad says, actually the Islamic revolution in Iran, it is an historical set of because they are weak, I suspect the three relations that has to do with the movement of people; Governments are more likely to go to war than to go people study in Iran. The leaders of one of the main for peace, and I think history has shown that time Shi’ite movements in Lebanon, Amal, actually came and again. I hope that I will be proved wrong, but it from Iran. It came prior to the Islamic revolution and is not, I do not think we saw in the past the tendency it exists, and it is a natural zone of influence for the is to go; hence, what can again bridge this gap is Iranians. That brings Iran almost immediately onto international commitment which helps both sides to the borders of northern Israel. The second thing is see sense. By commitment, I do not mean just that Iran, of course, has relations with Syria and via pressure, there should be also incentive. We use a lot its relations with Syria it is an indirect partner to what of terms of pressure and leaning on other happens on the Syrian, and thus on the Arab, front, governments; it is also an incentive to see what you because Syria of course is part of a broader Arab can gain out of unity, out of a peace process. I think front, so Iran has a role to play there. Iran has built that is the way to proceed. Do you agree? up links with the Sunni Islamist movements, in Dr Khalidi: I concur with Yossi. I do not see any particular Hamas, and, by the way, perhaps contradiction between saying “If you’re not going to surprisingly, with Fatah as well, Fatah on the do it seriously, don’t do it at all” and saying “If you’re Palestinian side. The secular, nationalist, Fatah going to do it seriously, go all the way and do it very movement has established over a period of years seriously.” I think that is a very consistent position. good relations with Iran and has been supported and There is, and I agree with Yossi, space for an financed by Iran, so Iran is a player. Does that mean international role which goes beyond giving just that Iran is necessarily a negative force? I would money or voicing slogans. The Europeans used to argue, not. I would argue first that one has to accept take a very robust political stance. If you look at the that Iran has a natural zone of influence via the Shia history of the EU, going back to 1980, in fact, the of south Lebanon and there is not much you can do Venice Declaration, I think, was a critical turning- to sever that without creating an artificial situation in point in the peace process because it did adopt the Lebanon. Second, that Iran will not stand in the way, principle of incorporation, the principle of reaching and they have said so, by the way, the Iranians have out and it put the PLO in a position where eventually said so; they may object as a matter of ideology to a the PLO became a partner, by recognising the PLO’s Syrian-Israeli agreement but they will not stand in its role and by recognising the rights of the Palestinians, way, because their relations with Syria have other it played a very positive role. We do not have that dimensions as well. Third, that its relationship with now from the EU. We have an EU that plays the role forces on the Sunni side, such as Hamas, are largely of financier, and now, at this particular point, a tactical and they have to do with the arm-wrestling selective one, it does not even finance this Palestinian that is going on between Israel, Iran, the United Government, and it seems to be happy to leave the States; it is a chess board. Hamas is an oVshoot of the politics to the United States, and we have seen where Muslim Brothers. There is no serious ideological that has led us. I am convinced there is space for an convergence between the Muslim Brotherhood and EU role, a more robust political role, a diplomatic the Shi’ite Iranian revolution; there may be tactical role which goes beyond mouthing slogans and interests which bring them together, but they are not following in the footsteps of the United States. identical.

Q44 Lord Lea of Crondall: I was very interested that Q45 Lord Lea of Crondall: Mr Mekelberg, have you Mr Khalidi did mention Iran, and perhaps he could got any reaction to that? just clarify how he thinks that is essentially part of Mr Mekelberg: Yes; it reinforces what Ahmad said. this equation in a practical sense, because some Iran is a player there and it moves between the people think that it might even make the whole thing ideological and the tactical; part of it is tactical, part even more impossible somehow to embrace it; could of it is ideological. Where I beg to diVer is whether it he clarify that? Then I would be grateful if Mr can play a positive or a negative role. In the current Mekelberg would say whether he thought it was a situation it is bound to play a negative role because, factor that we should embrace? as any revolution, it tries to create a more conducive 3676421002 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi environment for its existence, and revolutions are managed to derail the process and even direct the usually kind of paranoid entities, that they want to process, whether it is hegemony or by assassinating explore the revolution but at the same time feel it is Itzak Rabin, the settlers, we see the Israeli side and under attack. There are some reasons for that, taking the Hamas and Islamic jihad with the suicide bomb, into account eight years of war with Iraq and with all whoever wants to keep building the settlements, it all the current issues, and let us not forget the nuclear was in the direction that the minority of both issue. In this context, I cannot see, unless there is an communities managed to hijack the process. We have engagement with Iran, and if I can broaden the a problem, which I do not think is unique to the discussion here, in a sense, it is about the nuclear, and Israelis and the Palestinians, which is the problem of they can use the nuclear issue to widen the discussion moderates; the moderates are not as keen on their in the concern with Iran then they might actually play moderation as the extremists are keen on their a positive. If you gain in exchange for some issues and moderation. Probably we need some fanatical some compromises on the nuclear issue and put it in moderation in which the people in the centre or a much bigger package with Iran then they can play people who believe in co-existence and bring this also positive. If it is not, if they feel that they are conflict on the very basis of what is agreed so many under constant attack, they will play also the spoilers times, they will be there in the streets, promote these on the Israeli-Palestinian track. ideas and also elect and vote for these kinds of Dr Khalidi: I do not disagree with that. parties. Dr Khalidi: I was not suggesting, and I do not think Yossi is suggesting, benign neglect. What I was trying Q46 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: The proposition that to point to was the suspicion that the United States it would be better not to try at all if you are not trying may now be making the right noises, not because it really seriously sounds attractive, until you ask really wants to see an Arab-Israeli peace but because yourself and what would be the consequences of the international community stating now that it was not it wants the Sunnis to come on board in some kind of going to try at all because it was all too diYcult? new alignment against Iran. My comment was that if Perhaps the two witnesses could comment on what indeed this is what the United States is doing then it they think the likely consequences would be if the is better for us not to pin any hopes and to realise international community imposed eVectively a policy from the very start that this is not a serious process of benign neglect on the whole Palestinian process for and to go through the motions of creating the next couple of years? The second question is this: expectations and in the end not delivering, which can I sympathise very much with the views, I think, of only be negative. On the issue of violence and its both of you that there needs to be a structured and impact on the process, I think it was Rabin who said really continuous eVort to get a peace settlement, not “We will negotiate as if there’s no terror and pursue just photo opportunities and flying visits by terror as if there are no negotiations,” and I think ministers, and so on. Do you believe that it is possible that, for me, is the right formula. Bearing in mind one to have a peace process which can be sustained very important fact; since Hamas took a decision to through atrocities committed by extremists who are join the political process, some time in late 2005, over opposed to it, on either side, or within either side? In almost a year and a half now, it is very notable that fact, can you get to a situation, like this country got Hamas, which is the largest so-called extremist to in the Northern Ireland peace process, in which movement on the Palestinian side, has not actually there is a determination to carry on the process committed any major act of violence. The Israelis do whatever was thrown at it? recognise this; not much of the outside world Mr Mekelberg: I am not suggesting, and I do not recognises this. It is, in my opinion, a direct result of think Ahmad is suggesting, an imposed solution. Any Hamas’ engagement in electoral politics and vaguely, imposed solution will not last for long. It is positive and broadly, within the confines of a political encouragement of a solution which shows both sides, process. That is what you get, I think, when you reject or all sides, involved what is the price for continuing the politics of exclusion and you open up the door for the conflict and what are the benefits of ending the people to participate, you do bring down the level of conflict. All that I am saying is based on the violence. assumption that the majority in both communities Mr Mekelberg: If I can try to comment on violence wants peace. If this is a disservice to them which and negotiations with the Israelis, they are actually misleads us then all that I am saying negotiations under fire and you do not negotiate probably is wrong; but if this is correct, the idea that under fire, and that, actually. By doing so, we let you have to find a way to impose and change every single suicide bomber decide the future of the behaviour and encourage, so you do not have to conflict, and this is one of the biggest mistakes. If you impose, you can encourage and direct and change have to move, if you are in any circumstances, this behaviour. I think what we have seen since sometimes you have to take a few weeks oV, because September 1993 is that the extremists have actually politically it is not sustainable, but the direction 3676421002 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi should be do not let any single sort of violence, on Q49 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Presumably, the any side, derail a process. rationale of the incremental approach is that, step by step, you begin to build a degree of confidence. How can that happen, how can there be a suYcient Q47 Lord Anderson of Swansea: One final comment reservoir of confidence if you are going for the big on the links between Fatah and Iran. In the bang problem straightaway? anniversary celebrations of Fatah and Gaza at the Dr Khalidi: I must confess, I never bought into the beginning of January they tried to tar the Hamas as step-by-step, building confidence thing. I think, Shi’ite because of the killing of Saddam Hussein; again, our experience shows us that step-by-step perhaps the relations may not be so close. On the creates mistrust; what it creates is a sense that what peace plan and the Road Map, that was obviously V has happened in the negotiating process so far is that devised in very di erent circumstances, before the you have entered into a system of mutual obligations January election of Hamas. What I heard you say, Dr that neither side has kept, and so, rather than Khalidi, was this, that the first two stages should be gradually increasing confidence, you have eroded merged and there should be a timetable; well there confidence. Rather than getting both sides to be already is a timetable. What possible benefit can there further engaged and confident they can move be in merging stages one and two when the stage one, forward together, you are always looking back and which foresaw, one, the freezing of Israeli settlements the arguments are always about things that have not when there has not been a freezing of Israeli been fulfilled. All the time, Palestinians and Israelis settlements, and, secondly, the curbing, or say “Well, you didn’t do that and you didn’t do that; demilitarising, of the military groups in the Palestine because you haven’t done that we can’t move Authority; that has not happened. Is this not just a forward.” You need to find a mechanism where you despair either to imagine that you could get any get out of this log-jam, where you are not caught in further by merging two stages which you have not this system of mutual obligations that are not kept. reached, or by vaulting over these two stages and Mr Mekelberg: I think we have two approaches. One addressing the key issues of refugees, Jerusalem and is represented by Oslo. Oslo is the step-by-step and the final status one straightaway? Can there be any building confidence, with no clear ending. The other real mileage in either the merger or the vaulting over one is represented by Camp David and Taba. Let us those stages? deal with all the issues, for once forget about Dr Khalidi: I hasten to add, this is not my plan. It is confidence-building measures, because anyway we not something that personally I am endorsing but I destroyed any confidence, if there was any. Though am saying I think this is what is being cooked. there were achievements between 1993 and 2000, economic, social and political achievements, we Q48 Lord Anderson of Swansea: And your comment ignored a lot of achievements and really we looked on on that? the down side instead of building on their achievements. So there were two, and the Road Map Dr Khalidi: I think, for one thing, the Road Map is tries to go between. The first phase is about largely an illusion now, certainly in the way it was laid confidence-building measures; the second phase is a out and the way it was conceived, the phases of it. combination of giving some political solution and You point out rightly, there has been no confidence-building measures; and the third phase is dismantlement of illegal outposts, there has been no supposed to go back to Camp David and Taba. So it freeze of settlements, there has not been a disarming is actually to merge the two approaches into one so of Hamas and, frankly, I do not think you are ever that you have an end game, you have a timetable and going to get these things as small change. Part of our you have confidence-building measures. Since we are lessons from the negotiations over the last 10 or 15 already in 2007, when according to the Road Map the years is that, very often, the amount of eVort and launch should have been in the end phase, actually energy that you exert into secondary and minor having a two-stage solution it did not work as well. issues is better deployed in trying to deal with major issues, because you might as well go for the big bang than for the small whimper. Sometimes you get Q50 Lord Anderson of Swansea: We have fallen at neither and very often, as the case is today, you find the first hurdle. What makes you think that any other yourself in a quagmire. Nonetheless, what is being approach would take us forward? conceived of now, as I understand it—I called it Mr Mekelberg: We are still, according to everyone, we merging phase one and phase two of the Road Map, hear that we are in the pre-phase one condition, so we it does not have to be characterised as such—the idea have not even reached phase one of this, and the is to give the Palestinians a large chunk of territory, disengagement from Gaza was supposed to be phase to stick some kind of flag on this and to link this one, as part of pre-phase one, and then on gradually. territorial movement forward to the outlines of a final It is making a mockery of the Road Map, meaning status agreement. that the Road Map is based not even on bilateralism 3676421002 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi but on multilateralism; disengagement is based on analysis. I think the damage done by the suicide unilateralism and not engaging anyone but yourself, bomber to the peace process, to the understanding or the Israeli Government, in this sense. If you do not and also to understand the nature of the other side, move so you can decide unilaterally, I accept the will take a long time to repair. It is never completely Road Map, I put God knows how many conditions, irreparable but it takes time. The Bush community, if I cannot even remember how many conditions. complete, there is lack of trust, they talk among Dr Khalidi: Fourteen. themselves, they do not speak to each other, though Mr Mekelberg: Fourteen are there. Then I move to the I must say, within this context, there are a lot of first phase, because the idea of the first phase is NGOs, a lot of glasnost organisations that try to do security for the Israelis, no violence, the cessation of something. Some will say it is a bit nai`ve, it is a bit violence and make the life of the Palestinians liveable: basic, but it is there, it is one of the things which has fewer checkpoints, removing some of the outposts, to be enhanced, but again they are living in conflict and so on, more work permits, and so on and so too. The good thing about 1993 and 2000, there was forth. If you do not move into this one you cannot some hope in both communities that it would lead to move to the other one. something; okay, Oslo did not specify exactly where it would go but there was a kind of idea, there was a tacit understanding that it would lead to something. Q51 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: You were Life became more liveable and there was more work talking a moment or two ago about the violence and and more jobs and actually the Palestinian economy how the moderates do not believe as much in grew at a faster rate than the Israeli economy in these moderation as do the extremists in extremism. six, seven years, so there was hope and Talking to you on the same day last week, Israelis and understanding. Now it has gone and they cannot see Palestinians, and they both agreed, I spoke to them it and the message that is coming from the leadership separately, that the violence was worse than ever it is that a viable peace solution, a viable living process has been at the moment, and violence, as far as the is not there, and this I think has to change. Palestinians were concerned, of course, between the Dr Khalidi: Fatah and Hamas, what do you think are the real Sadly, the level of inter-Palestinian sparking points, the real determinants of the actual violence today is higher than the level of Israeli- violence when it happens now? It is very important to Palestinian violence. I do not mean that I regret the keep the big picture in mind, but the things which go fact that there is no Palestinian-Israeli violence; but wrong, on a day-by-day basis, which start this the situation today on the Palestinian side is terrible cycle going, of revenge and counter-actions unprecedented. I would say that there are a number against each other, I would be interested in your view of reasons for this. There is, of course, a power of the Palestinian community and the Israeli struggle between Fatah and Hamas; there are certain communities, what is the debate about what really elements within Fatah that have never accepted sparks oV violence? Somebody was telling me there Hamas’ victory. I think that there are sharp political, V are 520 checkpoints now on the West Bank, whereas and even ideological, di erences between the two five years ago there used to be 100. Is it that sort of that should not be ignored. Nonetheless, I think, thing, on the West Bank, is it the problems over when you look at the broader picture you have to prisoner exchanges, and we have all the business, remember a number of things. You have to obviously, of Corporal Shalit; is it anything that remember that this is a 40 year old occupation, 1967- could be done about the money which is held by 2007, 40 years; it is the longest occupation in modern Israel which would help Palestinians have better history, as far as I know. Through that period you lives? What is that debate within the two have had somewhere between 650,000 and 700,000 communities about what really gets the violence acts of imprisonment, Palestinians who have passed going? through Israeli jails, including multiple jailings, Mr Mekelberg: I think that there is post 2000, and you which is a vast number, on the basis of around 3.84 know we have the second intifada and Olmert was million people. You have today around half a million assured in the following six and a half years, now he settlers, if you include East Jerusalem, in East is completely lacking confidence and everyone works Jerusalem and the West Bank. You have a 700 unilaterally, and life for the Palestinians is not what kilometres wall that is going up, in some places twice you could regard as liveable, you cannot really run as high as the Berlin Wall. You have the hundreds of any political entity or society or whatever when you checkpoints. You have in Gaza, in particular, after have so many checkpoints and you cannot move the Israeli withdrawal in 2005, a very large prison; so from one place to another. The wall, the security you have naturally an enormous amount of barrier, or whatever one calls it, makes it even more accumulated frustration and anger and a severe diYcult to have any economic activity, any process of impoverishment alongside the failure of reasonable social activity. For the Israelis, number the peace process. In Gaza, in particular, it has been one obviously is their security, and it was more called de-development. If—a big ‘if’—Hamas had 3676421002 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi been given a chance to govern in the wake of its going to enter into yet another, even more disastrous electoral victory, if the international community had cycle of inter-Palestinian conflict and collapse. dealt with it diVerently, then my guess is that you Mr Mekelberg: I think we face a real conundrum as to would have had a completely diVerent situation how you deal with extremist groups. On the one today. You would have had a situation where the hand, it is very diYcult to sit and negotiate with a Palestinian internal political process would have party which calls for the obliteration of a country, so been relatively stabilised, where Hamas would have it is problematic; the same goes for the Hizbollah and been put in a position of responsibility. Incidentally, the Hamas. If you assume that actually negotiating this is exactly what Abu Mazin had in mind prior to within the political process will make them more the elections of 2006, because he was the chief moderate, there is a reason for doing it; but if we give advocate of bringing Hamas into the process. His them more political power, the signal that you send argument was “The only way that Hamas is going to them that, yes, it is acceptable to have such an be rationalised, as it were, is to bring them into the extreme platform or policy and it is part of the process, give them responsibility and make them political discourse to call for the obliteration of understand that if they bear responsibility in a another country, so we send the wrong signal. If they responsible way there are rewards for them, and if are in government and instead of dealing with all the they do not they cannot survive.” This never big issues, the ideological issues, they have to deal happened and the net result of all of these factors is a with cleaning the streets and all the mundane tasks of collapse on the Palestinian side. government, especially in the sense of the political authority, because they do not have any legitimacy to negotiate, it is in the hands of the PLO, then Q52 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Let me try eventually they will prove to be a failure, so we will that out, because you have talked about engagement actually engage them in politics because we believe with Syria and Iran, what about engagement with that they will fail, not because we believe that they Hizbollah and Hamas from the outside world? This will succeed. In this sense, we are in almost a Catch is one of the issues that we have constantly now. Here 22 situation, what do we do—is it better to have them we have the people who are engaged in diVerent sorts V in government or send a signal that we do not want of violence and from all di erent sorts of points of such an extreme position. view. We know that the Israeli Government finds it Y Chairman: I do feel that we ought to be moving on to very di cult to think of engagement with Hizbollah the role of the European Union. Lord Chidgey. and Hamas, we know that the Americans find that diYcult, they find it quite diYcult with Syria and Iran but particularly with the terrorist organisations. Q53 Lord Chidgey: Gentlemen, it has been quite What is your view about engagement from the EU, or fascinating so far, listening to your discourse on the from others outside? situation in the Middle East and the way forward, but Dr Khalidi: As we speak here, we have to remember I cannot help noticing, particularly as this particular that there are talks in Mecca going on between the function of ours is the role of the EU, that most of PA President and the Hamas leadership. It is not your comments have been concentrated on primarily guaranteed, of course, but the most likely outcome the United States’s role and Israel’s role and then, will be a government in which Hamas is going to be latterly, the Palestinian role. It is almost only in a leading partner, the premiership will be retained by passing that you seem to have mentioned what the Hamas, most likely it will be kept or given to the EU has been doing in the past, what it could be doing current Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh, so this is not in the future, and very little has been mentioned going to be a government in which Hamas’ role is about the perception of the parties in the Middle East fudged; it may not be a Hamas government but to the EU’s role, or a role that the EU should have or Hamas will be very evident there. The EU and the could have. Maybe I am misinterpreting your views United States and Her Majesty’s Government will on the importance, or otherwise, of the EU in the have to decide how they are going to react to this, Middle East peace process, and I hope I am, but I because it will also be matched by a political would like to hear from you, quite succinctly, if I may programme which, in my opinion, will not meet suggest, exactly, precisely what the parties in the outright the criteria which have been set by the Middle East peace process feel would be the most quartet, but will also fudge, in one way or another, productive role of the EU in the next one year, two find a language that people can interpret in diVerent years, five years, 10 years? ways, but it will not be a clear acceptance on the part Mr Mekelberg: I would like to create here a of Hamas of international conditions. It is a question, dichotomy, to set the scene, a kind of split between and here we will have the opportunity to bring hard power and soft power, and it seems the together the main elements within Palestinian policy, Americans are in charge of hard power and the in a national unity framework, and unless this elicits Europeans of soft power, and the other one is the a positive response from the outside world we are Europeans are more in favour of the Palestinians and 3676421002 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi see more poor Palestinians and poor Arabs in taken almost for granted that Europe will pick up the America, the Americans are for the poor Israelis. I cheques, and I think that has to change. There is a think in this dichotomy we have to move and play security role. There are two types of security role. around with this a bit to have a viable role for both There is a security role that the Europeans have been and to create a situation in which neither is seen as playing behind the scenes, largely in terms of support partial towards one of the sides, and both of them for the Palestinian security services. I cannot say that play on both levels, on the hard power and the soft is a bad thing necessarily; it does not make me jump power. If the assumption is the Americans are going for joy because I do not think that our main problem to deliver on the issues of security, the issues of is that of not having enough policemen. Nonetheless, borders, and all that the Europeans can do is give there is a role for the EU in supporting and building money and then build infrastructure, then when this up the actual apparatus of state. There is also a role infrastructure is destroyed to throw more money at for the EU to be looked at in terms of international rebuilding infrastructure, it will be a bit pointless. peace-keeping, if you like, in support of any The Europeans, I think actually have to be involved agreement. Although the Israelis have had a actively in the peace process itself, in negotiation; but traditional allergy to this, nonetheless, in Lebanon, again it is up to the European Union to come up with they have begun to accept that there may be space or the common foreign policy, what Europe as Europe a role for an international force which can do thinks is right. something in their favour. I would like to see Europeans thinking in terms of deploying troops on Q54 Lord Chidgey: You are suggesting that the lack the borders between Palestine and Israel, in one form of a common foreign policy weakens the EU’s or another, either as monitors or as a peace-keeping involvement and authority in this? force, as part of an agreement. The other role that the Mr Mekelberg: If there are 27 foreign policies, or, let Europeans can play, which they seem to have ceded, us say, if the European Union is divided as to the way is that of speaking out on issues of substance. As a forward, it will be very diYcult both for the Palestinian, I would like to see the EU revert to the Palestinians or any capital in the Middle East to say, kind of stance it took in the eighties, where it had a “Is it to Henry Kissinger; who do I call when I talk to strong stand on things like Jerusalem, things like the European Union, who do I ‘phone?” If there is an settlements, not just because it loves the Palestinians address in the European Union, if there is a common but because of the recognition of the fact that unless foreign policy towards ending the peace process, yes, some breaks are put on settlements activities, on the the position of the Europeans will be strengthened. changes of the status quo in Jerusalem, we are not Whether both sides want it is a diVerent matter. The going to get a resolution of the conflict, which is in the way it is seen, I think the Palestinians want a stronger interests of everyone. Even out of self-interest I think European Union around the table, I think the Israelis the Europeans can stand up and say more and do do not want a stronger one. I think, the way I see it, more on issues of substance. Finally, there is a role in the European Union, and here I talk also as British, terms of political engagement, and I go back to what not only as Israeli, if we see all this money we need to we were talking about a few minutes ago. I would like have influence, we have to influence the process, we to see the EU engaging with Hamas, and where cannot say just “Oh, we’re just writing the cheques possible with Hizbollah, being willing to stand up for you; whatever the Americans say, we are going to and be separate from the United States and be willing pay for it.” No, we have to have a say, to say we have perhaps even to take some risky actions in this V diVerent interests, as Europeans, we have diVerent domain, because the pay-o , in my opinion, is very interests in the region from those of the Americans, big, so I would like to see the EU take a clear and whatever is left of the transatlantic relations after positive role in terms of engagement with forces that Iraq, but it is also European and the Mediterranean are generally considered to be on the extreme side. and the Barcelona process, which is our interest, as Europeans here, to deal in, and that is why we have Q56 Lord Crickhowell: It is precisely on that point to be in the forefront of the peace process. that I was about to ask you the question of the area Dr Khalidi: I could not agree more with Yossi and in for a positive role for the EU and, in the light of what my capacity as a British citizen as well I would like to you have said previously about Hamas, it just emphasise— happens that the House of Commons International Development Committee has just produced a report, Q55 Lord Anderson of Swansea: And a taxpayer? in which it says: “The international community’s Dr Khalidi: I want my tax money to be eVective, and policy of isolating a democratically-elected it has not been. I think there are four roles that one government is questionable under conditions of can conceive of for the EU. There is the economic ongoing conflict. We understand the reasons for the role, of course, which seems to have become the decision but doubt whether it is, in fact, the most dominant one and the one with the least return, it is eVective response; indeed, the withholding of 3676421002 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi revenues by Israel and the boycott of a Hamas-led the last 25 years and there has even been a small force Palestinian Authority by existing donors has led to in Hebron, for quite a long time; however, this is seen the Hamas Government increasingly to look as an exception. The multilateral, of now almost elsewhere.” 12,000 in Lebanon, I think, changed the perception Dr Khalidi: Moving closer to Iran, yes. actually that multilateral, including a European force, can serve as peace-keepers within there, and it Q57 Lord Crickhowell: In the light of that, you said can set a precedent, an important precedent, as far as there is a role for Europe here; what do you think agreement with the Palestinians is concerned. then, in the light of what has happened with Hamas, what is the line that you would like to see the Q59 Lord Lea of Crondall: So it is not just Europeans taking in order to re-engage Hamas in stereotyping, it is the fact that perhaps Israel is the process? happier to have its umbilical links as the main partner Dr Khalidi: I think, at this particular juncture, we with the United States and it is a bit reluctant to see have to see what comes out of Mecca, because one the United States cede any role to the European can talk about what the Europeans could have done Union which is implicit, and where does that leave last month or the month before, but now we are the quartet, by the way? talking about potentially a new phase. If the net Mr Mekelberg: Where does it leave the quartet; the result of Mecca is a national unity Government quartet is the United Nations, Russia, the United which has Hamas members in it, which is my guess is States and the European Union. I do not think what will happen, then my hope would be that the Russia is much involved anyway that deeply and the EU would be ready to engage with it positively and United Nations is in a state of flux, in any case, which directly and not try to find other ways of trying to leaves the European Union and the United States as bend or twist its arm under the guise of not meeting the two main partners of the quartet; the rest is a bit the conditions that were set by the quartet. less significant. In this context, I think the onus is on the Americans to prove to the Palestinians that they Q58 Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lord Chairman, can are honest brokers, because the Palestinians, and I ask Mr Mekelberg to clarify something, because it correct me if I am wrong, do not see the Americans seemed to me that, first of all, on this point about who as honest brokers, and I think the same, many Israelis wanted the EU to have a more coherent, stronger will look at the Europeans and say “I am not so sure I role, he said, as I understood him, and correct me if I want them around in negotiations, I don’t trust them am wrong, that he rather regretted the degree of enough.” From the Venice Declaration, and even stereotyping that goes on, about Israel being related before, in the 1970s, they started supporting them to the United States and Palestine being related to the financially, even before 1971, there is kind of a EU. Then he went on to say it is not just a question perception in Israel that the Europeans are friendlier, of stereo typing because it is precisely—did he not say with the exception, by the way, of the United this—that Israel does not want a stronger EU role: is Kingdom, and Tony Blair, in this sense, who are seen V that what he said? in Israel as di erent. The perception is the Europeans Mr Mekelberg: Israel has very close ties with the are much friendlier to the Palestinians, they see the European Union economically; it is the main trade Palestinian cause and they prefer this over the Israeli V partner, more than the United States. Politically it is cause. The reality is di erent, but this is the diVerent; politically Israel prefers to see the United perception, or the best perception. States as the main broker. I might have diVerent views on this, but the way that it is seen in Jerusalem Q60 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Our focus is not the is that they prefer to see the United States as the main general context but specifically what the Europeans broker and, as far as Israel is concerned, the division can do to assist the process to a two-state solution, to between the United States dealing with the peace a democratic, viable Palestinian Authority, and process, with the negotiations, or involved in the clearly there are two levels, the one level, the grand diplomatic eVorts, and the Europeans more on the level, where perhaps Mr Kissinger could now economic issues, is fine by most of the Israeli telephone Mr Solana, that the EU was involved in the Government. I think it was the same since Rabin and quartet, Sharm el-Sheikh, and so on. I would prefer it is the same now; they prefer to see the Europeans to look, if you would, at the level underneath that, the not part of the peace negotiations, meaning dealing EU has a number of instruments, some you have with issues of security, the issues of refugees, borders, touched on already, the security cops at Rafa and so and so on and so forth. One thing which I absolutely on; the other is the financial, and there are big agree with is that Lebanon has changed a bit; with all problems on that. Are there any other instruments, the faults, and we know what happened in Lebanon, soft power instruments, which you believe the the deployment of a multilateral force is a change. European Union could properly deploy to assist the There has been an international force in the Sinai for Palestine Authority deliver its competence, in terms 3676421002 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi of social involvement, in terms of technical Q64 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I would be assistance, and so on? Where are we not doing well interested to know, you have touched upon the EU’s enough? relationship with Israel, I agree entirely with your Dr Khalidi: I think there is a very wide range of analysis of how the Israeli Government views the ongoing programmes which involve institution- engagement of the EU, what about EU relationships building and state-building and support from the with the neighbouring states and with international EU, so there is quite a lot of what you will see called organisations and the role that the EU might try to soft power, going on. I was trying to emphasise the play in relation to, for example, the Arab League, to more public aspect of it. Yossi is right; it is true that the OIC, to the GCC, in trying to have more of a the Israelis tend to think that the Europeans are more supportive role? We have talked terribly in terms of sympathetic to the Arabs, but I think the diVerence Syria and Iran regionally, we have talked in terms of between the perception of the Americans and the the EU, because that is what we are interested in Europeans, on the Arab side, is that the Americans obviously, and the United States, but what about actually play politics, they are brokers, whether you that linkage between the EU and the neighbouring like them or not. states; could more be done there and, if so, what sort of role would you envisage: both of you really? Mr Mekelberg: I think the European Union can play Q61 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Let us get onto the a very significant role, in the sense of trying to create micro level? an environment within the Middle East which is more Dr Khalidi: Whereas the Europeans are not; so it conducive to what we see as the moderates in the looks as if the Europeans have ceded the major area. In a way the game is complicated but in a way arenas of action to the Americans on the political and it is very simple. We know what we want, roughly, diplomatic sides. In terms of on the ground, where that we want to encourage certain behaviour but we you want sort of micro projects, to be honest, I do not always do that, and unfortunately, in 2003, cannot come up with any new ideas at the moment. following the war in Iraq, following a kind of near conversion of how we create democracies, this went terribly wrong, to say the least, and that is where the Q62 Lord Anderson of Swansea: You must know Europeans can help because most of the Europeans some which have been successful, some which have were not involved in Iraq and, in this sense, they can been less successful and some where you think we work in a diVerent way to promote this kind of could usefully intervene where we are not moderation. I think the instruments that Lord intervening now? Anderson was asking about was kind of the specific Dr Khalidi: We are in a situation where we need issue and I think, in a way, there are almost too many almost everything. One thing that the Europeans initiatives, there are so many initiatives. If you look have misused, I think, is support for NGOs, to be at what the European Commission say, for instance, honest. I think there is a great deal of waste, not just 105 million, part of the team, the temporary the Europeans but generally the international international mechanism for the Palestinians just community’s approach to Palestinian NGOs, where now, talking about payments to Palestinian health there has been rather haphazard support for NGOs workers, water for Gaza, education, 42 million to which do not actually produce anything besides a few support the vulnerable Palestinians, all of this, so you pieces of paper. A lot of money and energy has gone have to build, and already there were achievements, into that with very little return. They are basically because, what I said earlier, between 1993 and 2000 employment agencies for university graduates who there were achievements, all of this was created there. have nothing better to do. It is to make it sustainable; it is to enlarge this kind of project. All in all, we know what are the problems, we know almost what is the solution, it is to move Q63 Lord Anderson of Swansea: I think there is a forward, to have the kind of political determination certain amount of scepticism about the independence in moving them, and the process we all question is of a number of the Palestinian NGOs; that eVectively also bring them both the kinds of governments that they are politicised arms of Fatah and Hamas. can bring them on board and have a sophisticated Dr Khalidi: There is no way of escaping that, policy which encourages the moderates who want to incidentally; that is the reality on the ground. move and isolate the ones which do not. Chairman: We are already past noon. We have Dr Khalidi: I agree entirely with Yossi. I do not think covered, in fact, quite a lot of the questions from the problem is on the micro level. It is not that there diVerent parts of the table. What I suggest I am going is a lack of initiatives or action on the ground; maybe to do is go round the table and ask each of my the problem is that there is too much of it and it is not colleagues if they would like to put a final question to well directed. I think the problem is to have a clear our witnesses. Baroness Symons. idea of what all of this is in aid of, what you are 3676421002 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi actually trying to secure here, besides trying to through bits and pieces of economic aid which tend improve the Palestinian living conditions or to be squandered. economic conditions; you need a broader political Mr Mekelberg: If I were pushed really to make a framework. Here, the EU can play a role with the choice, I would make the same choice. However, I Arab States and as a bridge between the Arab States believe that you can do a bit of both, with the and the United States. Sometimes the Arab States emphasis on saying what are the political benefits need to have a voice, or a relationship with the but, at the same time, everyone would be a western powers which can mediate between them and stakeholder in this peace process, seeing that there is the United States; so there is a role both ways for the a better education system, there is a better health EU, in terms of engaging a broader Arab system, there is no issue over sanitation and clean constituency and, at the same time, playing a bridge water; all of these kinds of issues are starting to build between the Arabs and the Americans. up, so you see the immediate benefit on the soft power, without neglecting the health, and just work Q65 Lord Tomlinson: On the support which has been together. If the choice is between two, I will go given by the EU, we have rather skipped into what towards the political one. else could be done without looking at what is being done. If we look at what is being done, what has Q68 Lord Tomlinson: In those circumstances then recently, until the election of Hamas, the main thrust when you accept that because there is no proper self- of it was creating supposedly a viable, democratic, well-run Palestinian administration. Did it succeed control, no proper administration, the infrastructure and to what degree did it succeed in doing that? is going to be destroyed, do not worry too much Y V Putting aside whether they were getting the political about the e ciency and the e ectiveness with which V influence that the economic resource could have the money is being spent, it can be siphoned o to demanded, was the economic resource that they were other purposes? putting into the Palestinian Authority being used Dr Khalidi: Are you asking me whether I approve of eVectively and eYciently, and have we learned this, or whether this is a programme of action? anything, for example, from what I regarded as rather a fiasco of 10 years ago, of the European Union engagement following the withdrawal of Q69 Lord Tomlinson: I am not really asking you UNRA on the Gaza Hospital, for example? whether you approve of it but whether you accept Dr Khalidi: There is a fundamental anomaly here. that is a consequence of what is happening? The EU, and everybody else, is trying to build a Dr Khalidi: I think part of it is that it is a tough world healthy, democratic Palestinian entity while the out there and that is what happens in the real world. Palestinians are under occupation, and I do not see I do not know whether you saw the Guardian’s how you can escape this anomaly without ending the headline today about the United States and the occupation. The EU put vast amounts of money into bundles of cash that were sent to Iraq. It is not Palestinian infrastructure; because there was ongoing something to be applauded, but sometimes, in certain conflict, much of it has been destroyed. It seems to me parts of the world, this is the way things are done. It an impossible task. You can throw as much money as should not be the case and eventually, if you have a you like at this problem but unless there is a political healthy society, one hopes it stops being the case, but solution to it you are always going to be risking losing there are points where there are loopholes in the your investment, because of the limitations of the system. Palestinian Authority. Q70 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lord Q66 Lord Tomlinson: The logic of that seems to be to Chairman, without EU budgetary support, say, “Well, let us save our money;” let you, as a UK whichever route it goes in at the moment, your taxpayer, save your money and engage all our schools and hospitals will not function: if there is influence in trying to get a political solution? hardship now, there will be a desperate situation. Dr Khalidi: If you ask me, yes. Dr Khalidi: I am not suggesting for a moment that it should stop, but it was a hypothetical question, if you Q67 Lord Tomlinson: Keep that cash in our pockets, had to choose between one and the other, I would irrespective of whether it is about Hamas in choose a political solution. I agree entirely with Government? Yossi. It does not have to be like that. Dr Khalidi: If it is a choice between one and the other, Mr Mekelberg: In reality, you are absolutely right as I would rather see a full-scale engagement in trying to to the fact that we cannot just stop all the money and end this problem politically, to find a political leave people to starve, and not help schools and not solution, rather than trying to address it piecemeal help health; it is hypothetical, the emphasis. 3676421002 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi

Q71 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Can I move from insuYcient EU commitment, through the Member hypothetical questions and address you as British States, to a collective eVort? In particular, would you taxpayers. The EU contributes over 40% of the comment on whether London and Paris, for example, monies available to the Palestine Authority. It is are always saying the same thing? absolutely clear that much of that has been not just Dr Khalidi: That is impossible; physically impossible. destroyed but misappropriated, misused, by those in The problem with the EU is that you have 27 power, the World Bank reports and others, and there countries now; is it possible to have a consistent, comes a point at which the British and European meaningful foreign policy. It is hardly a discovery. It taxpayer will say “We want to get value for our is not as if I am saying anything that is controversial. money and not allow that money to be going to the I think fundamentally that is the root of the problem, private coVers of the Palestine leadership.” Is the that the more parties you bring in, under the purview Hamas likely to be less corrupt than Fatah? As of the EU, the harder it is to find a common policy Europeans, how do we ensure that we get value for which has an impact on the ground. I am not really money and stop such large portions of the money we sure how you get around this, except by having give being siphoned oV into private accounts? certain parties take a leading role. Dr Khalidi: The truth is that, for the past five years or so, there has been an enormous amount of eVort put Q74 Lord Lea of Crondall: In Iran, Britain, France into mechanisms for transparency and and Germany evolved a reporting structure to the accountability. I think, by and large, today there is a Council of Ministers. It did not begin as an EU general consensus that there is very little money that initiative but then it became an EU initiative, in terms comes from outside, through the EU or the United of Solana everybody else being a bit involved. People States, that goes to private pockets. Much of the talk about variable geometry, and so on but necessity money, for instance, EU money, goes directly into is the mother of invention; would you agree with bank accounts for employees, so there is no way that that? it can be siphoned oV by any intermediaries. A lot has Mr Mekelberg: One of the problems for the European been changed, from the early charges of Union on the issue of foreign policy is that power is mismanagement and corruption. On Hamas itself, too diVused, and whether you can bring Tony Blair Hamas prides itself on its clean record. and Chirac, for instance, to agree on policy. If they come and say “Here is our policy; that’s what we Q72 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Clean and think about this” then it will be regarded as big incorruptible? political clout, then it will be regarded seriously. For Dr Khalidi: It insists that it would maintain the instance, in Israel, the attitude to France is very highest standards of international transparency. The diVerent from the attitude to Britain. When Chirac thing is that it has not actually been tested so we do goes to East Jerusalem and starts a discussion in East not know. Jerusalem, out of nowhere, he is not seen as a serious Mr Mekelberg: Corruption is inexcusable because it is player, when Tony Blair is seen completely diVerently money that is taken from the people who really need in Israel, and the same goes among the Palestinians. it to have some shopping trips in Paris, or to finance You need just to come with a foreign policy that certain ladies in Paris; so in this case it is inexcusable. seems to represent I will not say 27 but the main It is also about our attitude in Israel; again, I talk as countries in the European Union; if it is a policy like a European, not as from the Middle East. If you you have seen in Iran, you have Germany, France accept that we have diVerent attitudes to corruption and Britain, so it seems like major players in Europe in diVerent countries, as we see with the recent aVair are playing together and in the same direction. It is with the Saudis, that we have one rule for bribery not the same case when it comes to the Israelis and inside Europe and a diVerent rule if you bribe Arabs, Palestinians. we encourage this kind of behaviour of corruption, so we should have some standards on how we look at corruption, and then we would be in a better position Q75 Lord Lea of Crondall: It could be like that? actually to say anything. Mr Mekelberg: Yes; it could be. This is for the Chairman: I think that is going a little beyond our European Union, for the leadership of the European immediate inquiry. Union, of course.

Q73 Lord Lea of Crondall: We had a question about Q76 Chairman: You have not referred to Germany the Member States and the EU and I think it is worth and yet Germany’s relations with Israel, for a number just hearing a response on this. Let me put it this way. of historic reasons, are also quite important, and I Is the lack of EU clout to do with what we have been wonder whether you would like to comment on the talking about previously, or is it to do with the fact role that Germany and perhaps the German that, either militarily or in other respects, there is Presidency might be able to play? 3676421002 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 03:14:18 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

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8 February 2007 Mr Yossi Mekelberg and Dr Ahmad Khalidi

Mr Mekelberg: Obviously it is a sensitive issue in Dr Khalidi: The converse is that Germany loses out Israel but 60-plus years after the end of the Second on the Arab end. World War I think Israelis can accept a more Chairman: Mr Mekelberg and Dr Khalidi, we are informed Germany more than ever before. Time has really extremely grateful to you for having given us moved on and Israeli society has moved and an hour and a half of your time. We have had a very Germany is regarded as friendly to Israel. I think useful and, as far as I am concerned, I believe the rest Germany has more of a problem with playing a role of the Committee as well, very informative session, with Israel than Israel has a problem with Germany and we leave this session with a much better playing a role because Germany now is more understanding of some of the nuances which perhaps sensitive to their position with the Israelis and with we had not given thought to in the past. We are the Jews than Israel is sensitive to the Germans. I extremely grateful to both of you for having come think actually that the impediment is with the and having taken part in such a co-operative manner Germans. together. Thank you very much indeed. 3676421003 Page Type [SO] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

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THURSDAY 1 MARCH 2007

Present Anderson of Swansea, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Chidgey, L. Swinfen, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Tomlinson, L. (Chairman)

Examination of Witnesses Witness: Professor Manuel SHassassian, Palestinian General Delegate in London, examined.

Q77 Chairman: Dr Hassassian, we are very grateful Professor Hassassian: The Middle East Peace Process to you for coming to give evidence to the Committee as we know is currently at a stalemate. The Oslo in their inquiry. Lord Roper, who is normally the process which was based on incrementalism led chairman of our sub-committee, has asked me to dismally to the failure of the peace process because express his apologies to you. He has had to have a each phase was dependent on the execution and the minor operation on his hand and unfortunately that implementation of the previous phase. The talks at operation has fallen on today. He looks forward to Camp David in 2000 were epitomised by the reading your evidence. It will be an important breakdown of the talks between the Palestinians and contribution to the deliberations that we are having the Israelis. Eventually, what we witnessed was the about the Middle East Peace Process. Would you like emergence of the second intifada. For the last six to make an opening statement? We have 14 questions years we have not seen any kind of progress as far as that we would like to put to you, which means that we talks between the Palestinians and the Israelis. all have to be very disciplined. I said a few words of Although there were concerted eVorts by the encouragement to discipline the Members of the European Union to mediate, to facilitate, to Committee before you came into the room. Perhaps encourage, to induce both parties to the conflict to I can say the same words of encouragement to you so engage in the political process, it was to no avail. The that we can have succinct and brief answers. current peace process is at a stalemate and there are Professor Hassassian: It is really a privilege to be here several factors that work as an impediment for the today and to address a distinguished audience. I do sustenance of such a stalemate. On the Israeli side not claim to be an expert on European policies but I today we have a very weak government that is led by will try to answer all your questions to the best of my a right wing with Kadema, a coalition party that is knowledge. My opening statement will revolve falling apart, and with the minimum public support around the fact that the EU has played and will to Prime Minister Olmert. There is no clear vision continue to play a seminal role in the peace process. whether to reinvigorate the peace process or to The Palestinians believe that the EU is the largest maintain the status quo. On the Palestinian side, we donor to the Palestinians and since the Oslo process are struggling to form a national unity government it has managed to pay half of the PNA’s budget in that will be consensual in reflecting the strategy and terms of infrastructural development as well as vision of the Palestinians in terms of the vision inducing reforms. The EU has been at the forefront towards peace and the formation and establishment of eVorts for peace in the Middle East and is still an of our state. However, the US and Israel and the active member of the Quartet alongside the US, international community through the Quartet have Russia and UN partners. Its strategy is the resolution insisted on a Hamas-led government to acknowledge of the Arab Israeli conflict. It is a strategy priority for the three Quartet principles. Those three principles Europe and therefore we believe that the EU will are recognising Israel, renouncing violence and continue to be a facilitator in the Middle East Peace accepting and honouring prior agreements between Process. We have seen many visits by the high the PLO and Israel. Unfortunately if these three pre- oYcials of the EU, starting from Javier Solana and conditions are not met there will not be any kind of ending up with Ambassador Moratinos. movement towards a peace process.

Q78 Chairman: Can you give us your evaluation of Q79 Chairman: Do you think those three conditions the current situation concerning the Middle East are unreasonable? Peace Process? Can you link with it the questions Professor Hassassian: I do not. Since I represent about the road map and whether, with its incremental President Mahmoud Abbas and the PLO, these approach, it represents the right approach for conditions have been met by us in 1988 when we progress towards a peace settlement? In that overall had accepted the two state solution. We believe that peace settlement, what part do you think the 2002 Israel has the right to exist. We have accepted that. Arab Peace Initiative can play? We believe that we have to pursue through political 3676421003 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

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1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian means a peace process that will end up with the Q81 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: If the Palestinians creation of a contiguous, economically viable entity, succeed in having a unified and coherent government, a Palestinian state. We still honour the prior do you think that Israel has to have regime change agreements made between the PLO and Israel. before you can reach sensible conclusions and However, Hamas is a faction and factions have the negotiations with them? Do you think that the right to accept or not to accept the state of Israel. Olmert government is too weak as it stands at the In the final analysis, the PLO headed by President moment? Mahmoud Abbas is going to negotiate with Israel Professor Hassassian: The national unity government because the election of Hamas to government was will answer a lot of questions that the international the result of the Oslo Peace Process. De facto Hamas community has been posing. Once and for all, the has accepted the Oslo Peace Process and national unity government has stopped the in- consequently participated in the elections. Maybe it fighting among the Palestinians. Now we should have did not proclaim outright to accept the state of a representative government of all walks of life. That Israel, but now it is referring to the right of the in itself creates a certain type of security in our part existence of Israel, also as de facto. However, on the of the world. There will be a consensus in this question of renouncing violence, the only faction government that the negotiations will be conducted that committed itself to a truce between it and Israel by the PLO and President Mahmoud Abbas will be is Hamas. Hamas has shifted 50% in changing its handling the negotiations file with Israel. The policies. Maybe it did not move forward enough to question of recognition here is immaterial. However, respond to the three principles. Now, with the a weak government on the Israeli side is not really formation of a national unity government where going to push the peace process forward because Hamas will have only nine portfolios, the control Olmert is being attacked left and right. With such a will reside in the president’s oYce and the other weak government, we do not anticipate that there members of the Cabinet that will conduct future will be a process of engagement here. I think Israel relations with Israel. will go for early elections. Of course, we cannot predict the outcomes of such elections but they are not going to be as we anticipate. However, we Q80 Chairman: Can I ask you to say one word about Palestinians believe that we have to be prepared for the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative? final status talks and to stop this incremental Professor Hassassian: The road map which was approach by accepting the fact that we have started initiated in April 2003 has not been very successful and embarked on a peace process which was because we have not seen any implementation of launched back in 1993. We have to continue within that. It was based also on the basis of incrementalism that framework because there is no military solution and confidence building measures. We have seen to this conflict. There is only one solution and that is from the Oslo agreement that the confidence building political. measures did not work out for the simple reason that leaders on both sides were jockeying for a political Q82 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Are you suggesting accommodation rather than peace building. The lack that fundamental to the national unity government is of linkages of civil society and changing the the acceptance by the Cabinet of that government of perceptions of people on both sides led to its dismal a two state solution? failure. We do not want to repeat the same experience Professor Hassassian: Yes. in the road map. The phased approach is not going to be very beneficial. Palestinians believe today that Q83 Lord Anderson of Swansea: May I put one if they want really to start the peace process both further question relating to frustration at the lack of sides have to start with the basic fact that there are progress of incrementalism? There was a suggestion five permanent status issues. Without realising that, I floated yesterday in an article in The Financial Times think we will go back to square one. The Arab Peace that in contrast to that approach there should have Initiative is a King Abdullah initiative which was been an attempt at a regional approach, bringing in endorsed in the Beirut Arab Summit in 2002. It is a Iraq and other concessions around it. Is that good frame of reference for a comprehensive and just something which attracts you? peace. The Arabs have oVered Israel the right to exist Professor Hassassian: Definitely. I believe that the crux and to be part of the existing nation states in the of the problem in the Middle East is the Palestinian/ Middle East. It oVered land in exchange for peace. It Israeli conflict. All other regional conflicts are wanted Israel to relinquish the territories occupied in considered to be marginal when it comes to the hard 1967 for a full and comprehensive peace. That frame core problem. We know that Israel is there to exist. of reference should be part and parcel of the The Arabs have endorsed their existence through the Quartet’s road map in future political processes Arab Summit of 2002. We believe that a two state between the two parties. solution is the only solution, although the 3676421003 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

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1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian

Palestinians have made their historic compromise in argument that we should look at groups of EU 1988 to accept only 22% of historic Palestine as our nations as well as the EU as an entity that has its own independent, viable state. Regional conflicts particular—I would not say “agenda”—but perhaps sometimes have marginalised the issue from the view on the way forward and it works together as an centre to the periphery. I believe that the informal team to try and press matters. If you could developments in the Middle East today will be better give me some answers to those various sub-issues if we have seen a certain kind of progress on the within the main issue of whether the EU is just a Palestinian/Israeli front. If you look at the issues, banker or whether it really has a role which is they are organically intertwined. What is happening important and which can be recognised, that would in Iraq and the position of Iran, using the Palestinian be fruitful. card today and the Hezbollah card, is creating Professor Hassassian: The perceptions of the mounting pressure and instability in the region. Palestinians concerning the EU political role have been considered to be very minimal. The major thrust Q84 Lord Anderson of Swansea: The article was that the EU had in supporting the socio-economic suggesting that there should be a package which conditions and the infrastructural development of should include Iraq, Iran and other matters with the the future Palestinian state has always been a strategy US and others agreeing as a total rather than starting for the EU. However, when it comes to the political incrementally following the Middle East Peace role, or in putting pressure on Israel and being a Process approach. potential partner with the US, we have not seen much Professor Hassassian: This comprehensive approach teeth there. That is why we have all the time been will be very complex and diYcult. I believe that we urging our EU partners to become more proactive in have to look at the issues in perspective, solving the the political arena, not to leave it to the United States Palestinian/Israeli issue, at least getting the parties alone. As you know, Israel has always wanted to back on track to negotiations by not neglecting Iraq shun the Europeans because for us the Europeans as and Iran, because those are major actors in the partners are the only ones who could tilt the balance. Middle East and they could act as spoilers to the There is more leniency and unequivocal support by peace process. The Palestinians and the Israelis have the US to Israel. We do not have that kind of leverage been victimised by the spoilers to the peace process. I by the Europeans and their political role to tilt that believe that today Iran plays a major role in being a balance. Regardless of our appreciation of the spoiler and that is why the United States has to contributions of the European Union in terms of reckon with Iran but not at the expense of stalling the humanitarian assistance, economic sustenance, peace process between the Palestinians and the development, investment, growth, fair trade and Israelis. partnership which are very important for a future Chairman: You referred earlier to the economic viable Palestinian economic entity, when it comes to importance of the EU. Lord Chidgey is going to ask the political peace process we have not seen much the first of a series of questions about the political role induced involvement by the Europeans. Every time of the EU. we have meetings with Europeans on the bilateral levels, they have been asking us to put pressure on the US to accept the Europeans as potential partners in Q85 Lord Chidgey: In your opening remarks you the peace process. We could not really convince the made a very strong link between the level of EU Americans to have the EU politically, involved to be donations to Palestine and the importance and on equal footing with the United States. That is why stature of the EU’s political role, which was very nice we have been very frustrated with the positions that and we thank you very much. However, as you will we have not seen, for example. The EU is the largest know from the questions, we are concerned about the donor to the Palestinian economy. Also, the EU is strength of the stand that the EU takes in the considered to be one of the largest trade partners to negotiations and in the final status issues. I would like Israel. The Europeans can do a lot in putting pressure to know what your view is on whether the EU has a on Israel but that has been circumvented all the time coherent strategy on the Middle East Peace Process by the pressures put by the United States on the or is there any fresh thinking? I would like to caveat European Union. that and try to link the two questions together at the same time. In our other evidence sessions, there has been quite a lot of doubt spread to us on whether or Q86 Lord Chidgey: Thank you very much for those not the EU does have a major political role to play, answers. They have been echoed in other quarters. whether it is a junior partner to other, more powerful The one thing we perhaps have not touched on is the nations with greater interests. It has also been put to process by which the EU can bind together in us that the EU does not speak with one voice. Who Palestinian eyes to be a more equal player in the do you speak to if you want to speak to the EU? It is Quartet. This is the issue that is most important to us the old Kissinger argument. Also, there has been an in our inquiry: how the EU can function rather than 3676421003 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

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1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian picking individual states. We recognise that this is an Professor Hassassian: Yes. Your statement is accurate issue and I wonder whether you can give your and succinct. The Palestinians believe that the US has observations on the way forward for the EU to be a failed us dismally in being a third party because it did more eVective player in the peace process. not portray itself as being an honest broker for peace. Professor Hassassian: Great Britain could play a very That is why we are insisting on the role of the seminal role. The UK government is considered to be Europeans, believing that at least there will be some among the leading countries in the EU. In our kind of fairness and balance. As you put pressure on meetings with his Excellency, the Prime Minister, we the Palestinians, we believe that you will also put have asked him to be more proactive in the peace pressure on the Israelis. This is what we call honest process and to have more teeth in the Quartet. The brokerage. We anticipate that the European role in UN has been a lame duck in bringing the parties in brokering peace between the Palestinians and the the conflict together. The Russians are now starting Israelis would be much more credible than the one we to be more proactive in their involvement in the have witnessed so far. The United States policy as a Middle East and in particular in recognising the third party has been a total failure. Look what national unity government of the Palestinians and happened, from the Oslo agreement until now, with trying to put pressure on the EU to accept this kind all the mediation and the full participation of the of government for future relations. We need to see the Americans. We had the impression all along that the EU change its strategies. It is about time, with your US was dictating to the Palestinians the conditions geopolitical interest in the Middle East and our for trying to relieve the Israelis of their commitments. geographic proximity and our long, historic tradition That is not acceptable. We believe that the that the EU should be more involved politically. We Europeans will play a more positive role in being have been mandated by European countries all equitable in putting pressure on both sides while along. We have more aYnity to working with you. searching for a common ground. There is a trusting relationship of Europeans with the Arab and the understanding of our religion, Islam, Q88 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I think could play a cementing role, rather than a negative much of this question has been covered but let me put role. From that perspective, I think there should be it in stark terms. Are you saying that you see the more involvement. We cannot impose this on the United States as absolutely Israel’s backer and not as Americans as much as the European Union which a power that is bringing the two sides together? That has to be more concerned because it has been is what I am drawing from what you have been saying investing lots of money in this peace process. to us and I put it in stark terms deliberately. Therefore, to cash in on the dividends of this peace Professor Hassassian: Yes. With all the evidence that process, the EU has to be more politically involved. we have and with our experience with the Americans, The Palestinians and the Arabs will feel more secure we have not seen much pressure being put on the in having an equitable solution with our partners, Israelis by the Americans. All the time we have been the Israelis. dictated to by the Americans to keep conceding.

Q89 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: You have Q87 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Do you accept that if told us how you think there needs to be an the European Union were to play a more proactive adjustment in this respect because you would like to role, which you are seeking, particularly in a set of see more EU involvement. I think the words you used negotiations which would be addressing the final a moment ago were “we insist on a greater role for the status issues—a view which I would share very EU”. What leverage do any of us have and how do we strongly—this will inevitably mean that the need to insist to the Americans that we have a greater European Union in its more proactive role will have role? The Americans have all the power with the to put pressure on the Palestinians as well as on the Israelis. We would like to see a greater political role. Israelis. The idea that the Europeans are in there to You would like to see a greater political role. How do back Palestinians while the US are in there to back you think that is achievable? the Israelis is, in my view, a futile approach to this. It Professor Hassassian: This is not a question that I is one that will lead absolutely nowhere. A more have to answer. You understand your potential. proactive European role will not just be a political You understand to what extent the Middle East is concomitant of the already large part we play in so important and viable to the Europeans. You supporting the Palestinian Authority. It will cannot just see the entire Middle East being highly inevitably mean in some cases very strong politically volatile without doing anything. In the representations to the Palestinian side, saying we final analysis the economic dividends are really believe that it would be helpful if you would do this, hurting the Europeans because of its markets and that and the other and not just representation to the its bilateral relations with the Arab states. The Israelis. Is that fully understood? imposition should come from the Europeans. We 3676421003 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

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1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian would like to assist by any means that we can. We Q91 Lord Lea of Crondall: Can I link that to the new have asked time and again for European role of Saudi Arabia as a facilitator and also the new involvement. We have promoted the EU on our role of the EU which is what the question is supposed platforms. It should play a more proactive role. The to be about. You might like to say something about role that that the EU has been playing may not be the former but on the latter—it goes back to our on a par with that of the United States but it has earlier discussion and Baroness Symons’s question— been very minimal. We would like to upgrade that how can the EU do something that it is not somehow involvement. We have to look at certain doing at the moment? Would it be that the analogy is mechanisms for how to do that, believing that the as follows: the United States can act both unilaterally EU has always been subservient to the diktats of the and as part of the Quartet. The United States attitude US when it comes to its own policies and strategic to the EU is where is the problem? We are all part of interests in the Middle East. This is an EU concern, the Quartet. The United States can act unilaterally or how to deal with the American hegemony in the independently, whichever way you like, as well as Middle East and the total control of the pace of the part of the Quartet. Can the EU do something in this peace process. field? It is an ambiguous expression because one minute we are talking about the EU; the next minute we are talking about Tony Blair, President Chirac or Q90 Lord Lea of Crondall: How far has the Mecca somebody, but can you unwrap that enigma a little agreement provided a basis for the EU engaging more? with Hamas? What have been the consequences of Professor Hassassian: The Mecca agreement provides boycotting the Hamas-led government? V an historical opportunity from my perspective for the Professor Hassassian: The boycott has a ected the EU to engage with Hamas in a national context, Palestinians tremendously. I as an ambassador have which is a national unity government. It might enable not been paid for the last 11 months. 162,000 it also not to solely deal with Hamas, engaging and workers in the public sector have not received their dealing with the national unity government will not salaries and these workers support almost one only help the prospects of peace but will enable the million people. Almost one third of our total EU also to engage with political Islam in a favourable revenue service is based on the wage bill. That has a and relatively moderate context. You are not dealing direct impact on the economic conditions. In certain with a Hamas government; you are dealing with a cases in Gaza and the West Bank, the poverty level national unity government in which Hamas will be went beyond 80%. Today, unemployment rates in represented. 15 ministers will not be Hamas the West Bank and Gaza are almost 50%. This is ministers. Therefore, the majority is non-Hamas. the impact of the boycott, let alone the tax revenues This is an excuse for the European Union to deal with withheld by Israel which totals almost 900 million. a government and not to be under the pressure of the Already 100 million has been released as a good Israelis or the United States not to deal with such a gesture by Prime Minister Olmert but that also has government. Such a government is going to bring not been received yet by the Palestinians. Had we Hamas even further towards the PLO agreements in received all the promised aid, I do not think the accepting prior agreements with Israel. Now they conflict would have prolonged so far. I do not think have to respect prior agreements. We want them to Hamas would have sustained itself. Therefore, in honour them and to deal through them. That will mobilising people and being supported by the take some time. My President is concerting a lot of people, it was not Hamas’s fault being eVort in bringing Hamas on board. We have to give democratically elected but it is the international credit that Hamas has been moving forward, maybe community that from day one ostracised and not enough, but it is moving forward and I think this alienated it. The Mecca agreement is first and is a great opportunity now for the European Union foremost seen from our perspective, the to deal with a national unity government and not to Palestinians, as stopping the in-fighting and getting deal with Hamas per se. the disarrayed Palestinian house in order. This will continue to be our utmost priority. Forming a national unity government based on pluralism, Q92 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Some inclusion and dialogue is of utmost importance in commentators argue that one of the key motives of sustaining our readiness to reinvigorate the peace the Saudi Government was their concern that Hamas process with the other side. It is the other side, was coming increasingly under the influence of the Israel, that is not giving us the chance to form such Iranians and that this should be seen in the context of a government. Israel wanted the Palestinians to be Sunni concern generally about true governance. Can embroiled in t his internecine warfare because that you comment on that? would bolster its position in maintaining the status Professor Hassassian: We have to admit that the quo and in saying, “We do not have a partner on Saudis have very good relations with the United the other side.” States. 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34 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian for the Americans. It is the only government that assumed control of the streets. In order to contain could really put some pressure on President Bush that within the security apparatus, it has to be part who might listen to the Saudis. The Saudis have been and parcel of the overall security set up which, in the very generous also to the Palestinians in terms of aid. final analysis, the president is in total control of. The Saudis are now worried with the nuclear There is a major problem there in the appointment of development in Iran which they believe threatens an independent who will be head of the Ministry of their position in the Middle East. With the Sunni/ the Interior. They are still looking to solve that. There Shi’ite uprising in Iraq, the Sunnis now are on the are other minor problems, the question of the receiving end of the hegemonic attitude of the recognition of Israel and the political platform for Shi’ites, which in turn is creating the unrest and such a government. The political agenda of such a instability in the Middle East starting with Hezbollah government would play a very important role, in southern Lebanon all the way to Iraq and Iran. It is whether to be accepted by the international important that the Saudis will play a major role now. community or not. Everybody is waiting not for the That is why they hosted Hamas and President formation of the national unity government, but Mahmoud Abbas to clinch an agreement. That what would be its political platform? The assessment agreement is followed by monetary rewards, as you whether to recognise this unity government or not know. That is why we believe that the Saudis have will be another chapter that we have yet to read high stakes in the Middle East and cannot aVord closely. Hamas playing in the hands of the Iranians. They are Lord Hamilton of Epsom: We have touched on Iran trying their utmost also not to let the Iranians play already. We want to know what role Iran can have in the Hezbollah card in southern Lebanon. We see this the peace process. Does the U-turn by President arc of moderation between the Saudis, the Egyptians, Bush, allowing the Iraqi Government to talk to Iran the Jordanians, and President Mahmoud Abbas and Syria under the Baker Hamilton fitting very well with the interests of the United States recommendations, have any impact, do you think, in creating a stable Middle East by providing carrots when it comes to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict? Do rather than sticks. This has been a prelude for the you see it spilling over? Is there any role for the EU Mecca agreement. If the Saudis are accepting Hamas to play in terms of influence on Iran? and they are trying to protect Hamas from slipping into the hands of the Iranians in using them as a trump card in the Middle East, the Americans Q94 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Do you think that eventually I believe will be responsive. We have seen the enhanced or proactive EU role in the Middle East many governments within the European Union Peace Process should include pressing the United portraying positive indications towards the States to have a dialogue with Iran that covers all acceptance of this national unity government. matters at issue between the United States and Iran which would obviously encompass the Middle East Peace Process as well as the nuclear issue, Q93 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: What is holding up encouragement of terrorism and other matters? Do the formulation of a national unity government now? you think that that is likely to be a role which the We are two weeks or more from the Mecca agreement Europeans should be playing or should they be and there has still not been a government formed. taking a rather neutral role in this matter? What are the policy issues which are delaying that? Professor Hassassian: I think the EU should play a Should we expect, when a national unity government more proactive role in trying to influence the United is actually announced and takes oYce, any further States to be engaged in a dialogue with Iran. We statement elaborating on or adding to the Mecca know today that Iran is a major power regionally in agreement; or is the Mecca agreement the final word? the Middle East and it controls to a certain degree Professor Hassassian: Since day one when the Mecca now three files: the Iraqi file, the Hezbollah file in agreement was first signed by both parties, Fatah and southern Lebanon and the Hamas file. These are the Hamas, the deliberations on trying to choose three most important hotbed issues in the Middle ministers have started already. In our basic law the East. If the Iranians were left to be spoilers, to use president gives three weeks after the letter of these three areas, it would be a top priority for the designation given to the Prime Minister for the United States to deal with Iran whether they like it or formation of a government. However, there will be not. The question of the nuclear file is something the an extension of two weeks as an extra period. The Arabs do not like to see because it is considered to be deliberations between all parties have been going on another threat for the Arabs especially in the Gulf in forming this unity government. There is a problem area. This should not exonerate Israel from the with the appointment of the Interior Minister. Both responsibility of dismantling its nuclear weapons. If sides would like to have an independent minister who we want to free the Middle East from weapons of will control the Ministry of the Interior. The mass destruction, you cannot pursue it with double executive force was created by Hamas when it standards. This is what the United States is doing. 3676421003 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

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1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian

They are not allowing Iran to develop its nuclear between Iraq, Iran and Syria being the catalyst to capability and yet they have been supporting Israel in forming a more peaceful alliance in the future. In all having their nuclear reactors in Damona. The of that do you see Syria moving away from its Europeans should play a more proactive role in this relationship with Iran towards a more traditional area too. The US should listen to the Europeans as a role in its relationship with the rest of the Arab potential partner in the Middle East to engage in a league? dialogue with the Iranians. In the final analysis, if the Professor Hassassian: The Syrians have been pushed to Iranians are kept as spoilers to the peace process, we take such a position because of the insistence of the are going to witness major wars in the Middle East. United States in alienating Syria and putting pressure This regional instability is not in the interests of the on President Bashar’s government and in minimising United States nor of the Europeans. its role regionally, especially the role that Syria has played in Lebanon. After the withdrawal of Syria Q95 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Where do you see the from Lebanon, still we can witness the continuation Iraqi talks going in Syria and Iran? Obviously the of the political repercussions of the Syrian presence in Americans are behind those. They may not be at the Lebanon. As you can see today, the opposition to table but I suspect they will even be that. That process Syria is mounting more and more in Lebanon and I is starting, is it not? think the Americans are playing on that Professor Hassassian: There has recently been a contradiction and that should stop immediately. rapprochement between Syria and Iraq and there is a good relation between the Syrians and the Iranians. Q97 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: It is not The three of them could really play a major role in just the US pressure though, is it? The French put creating stability in the Middle East. The impact of pressure on Syria. You talked about the Harare file the Syrians on the Iraqis and the formation of such a being closed but earlier on another phrase you used government still needs credibility and accountability. was that the UN is a lame duck. Of course it is the UN It is not yet credible and accountable by the people of that is insisting on the Harare file staying open. What Iraq. They think these are puppet regimes being I am interested in is the Arab league, the Gulf imposed on them by the Americans. The major issue Cooperation Council, the OIC. Do you see a role for in Iraq is the withdrawal of the US troops. Once there them? What is the relationship you would like to see is a withdrawal, I think the Iraqis can manage their between those bodies, which are Arab or Islamic internal aVairs. Given the fact that Iraq today is bodies, and the European Union? vulnerable to all kinds of conflicts that are being Professor Hassassian: When I referred to the UN as a swept into it, whether the Iranian interest, the Syrian lame duck, I did it in the context of not implementing interest, in using Iraq, by using the Iraqi question its resolutions on the ground when it comes to the they think they are trying to put pressure on the Palestinian/Israeli issues. Americans in order to gain more concessions on their part. It is enough to give sticks. It is about time that Q98 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Not in the the US should give carrots. Syria could be pacified if context of the peace process? the Hariri file is closed. I think the Syrians could Professor Hassassian: No. The French position has impact and deliver Hamas. The Syrians started by been personalised. It is Chirac’s position concerning hosting Mashaal and President Abbas. The Syrians the Hariri file. I have been through many discussions also would play a limited role in Iraq in the with French oYcials. They are not as persistent and stabilisation process. Syria also would try to alienate adamant as President Chirac himself, who is itself or withdraw from this closer alliance with Iran personalising this issue. I believe that the cooperation if the Saudis are willing to compensate Syria between the Gulf Council, the Arab League and the financially. If there is a political will on the side of the European Union has always been a vacillating US to re-engage the Syrians in a peace process, with procedure. Sometimes it is a more strenuous the Israelis over the Golan Heights, this is the time relationship, at other times we see it more easing but when they have to cash in on the dividends of that it is like an ebb and flow kind of a relationship. It has process. If they do not do that, what we will see is an never been hostile to the Europeans. Every time that exacerbation of violence which would be detrimental we have to deliberate on EU policies in the Middle to the interests of all powers. East it has always been very positive. I still believe Syria can play a positive role in the Middle East. It Q96 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: This is should be used by the great powers, and the really examining that point about Syria and the other Europeans should push the Syrians to be more Arab neighbours. You said something very proactive in stabilising the region and in engaging in interesting a while ago. You said Egypt, Jordan and direct peace talks with Israel. It cannot really Saudi were the arc of moderation, a very interesting continue while the US and other countries are putting phrase to use. You also talked about the relationship pressure on the Syrians to push Syria further into 3676421003 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

36 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian being in alliance with Iran, something that Syria is had been a lot of shortcomings and relative not forced to do but it has been cornered to do so corruption in implementing the proper level of because of the current circumstances. Let us not funding but at a later stage, just before the break out forget that today Iran is helping Syria financially, and of the second intifada, the mechanisms that were put it has been compensating for what previous Arab forward by the Palestinian Authority were in tact to governments used to give Syria in terms of economic monitor and evaluate much better. aid and growth. Q101 Lord Anderson of Swansea: How do you think Q99 Lord Anderson of Swansea: We have received we can do better in terms of maximising the beneficial evidence that last year, 2006, EU aid to the impact of the various instruments we have? What do Palestinians amounted to over 680 million euros, the you look for which we Europeans are not doing largest ever contribution in a single year, roughly half suYciently eVectively? from Member States and half from the European Professor Hassassian: As a result of the international Commission. The aim is obviously to maximise the boycott, with the imposition of economic sanctions, benefit of that sum to the Palestinian people. To what we come to the question of the TIM. It is important extent do you, representing the people of Palestine, that you deal directly also with the Palestinian feel that that money is well spent? Can you see ways NGOs, with the institutions, because part and parcel in which it could be better spent? Are you happy with of the EU objective is to build institutions, capacity the degree of consultation by the EU and other and institution building. That funding could be sent countries with the representatives of the Palestinians? directly to those organisations and some of it was Professor Hassassian: The EU’s major instrument in made through international bodies as far as the supporting the Middle East Peace Process has been question of food security is concerned. There has funding the Palestinian National Authority. I said been great trauma in trying to allot the proper earlier that by far the EU has been the largest donor funding. Maybe the mishandling of the funds was by to the Palestinians. You have mentioned the figure. I those who went through the PA system and were not have all the figures in front of me. I believe that to a dispensed in the proper way. However, this can be certain degree we have failed in our fiscal policies improved by a dual approach, through the NGO however, we have learned our lesson. sector and the public funding of the PA.

Q100 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Clearly there have Q102 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Are the EU been strong allegations of misappropriation of EU priorities right? funds by the World Bank and others. That you Professor Hassassian: I think the EU priorities are accept? right. The EU could improve those through Professor Hassassian: Yes, that we accept. We tried to verification and monitoring mechanisms in order to modify our position and perceptions, finding certain make sure that in the final analysis such funding will mechanisms for how to improve that transparency, be sustainable for economic growth and accountability and credibility, to make sure that development. these funds are dispensed properly into the areas that have been designated by the EU. In the words of the Q103 Chairman: Of all that funding, the various Council of Foreign Relations which published a instruments that are there, which ones do you think study in 1999 evaluating the performance of the are most directly significant in contributing to the Palestinian National Authority, “The Palestinian peace process itself? Authority was expected both to construct a pluralist, Professor Hassassian: The Temporary International political system and maintain law and order Mechanism, which was I believe a desperate measure, internally and to enhance peace with Israel and had ensured two tracks when it was formulated in security for Israelis externally. It has confronted 2006. On the humanitarian side, it alleviated the these challenges in a political atmosphere that was suVering of the Palestinians straightforwardly by highly charged and marked by violence. It has allotting immediate aid for them. Secondly, it achieved levels of service delivery, revenue prevented the political authority from collapsing. mobilisation, financial accountability and President Mahmoud Abbas has raised the extreme mutualisation of international assistance that are at need for such an instrument in a letter that was sent least commensurate with and in some aspects exceed to the Quartet principals on 9 May 2006. TIM has those in countries of comparable development and contributed immensely in alleviating suVering, income.” As far as the EU funding, it was relatively particularly in the health sector, by providing eVective. Had the political process succeeded, the essential supplies and non-wage current PNA was ready to be transformed into a full scale expenditures. They have allocated 105 million euros. apparatus, mostly with the general help of the EU. It also alleviated some of the humanitarian suVering Maybe in the beginning—I agree with you—there caused by Israel and the international community. 3676421003 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

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1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian

However, it did not support the financial and government. If you could do that in the most simple political survival of the PNA. It refrained earlier form, I think it would be of significant assistance to from contributing to the wage bill of almost 160,000 the Committee. public sector employees. That in itself created the Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Including the flows from economic conditions that are so dire now for Arab countries. improvement. That will reduce the eVects of Chairman: Flows from all sources, yes. instability in Gaza and the West Bank.

Q105 Lord Swinfen: In your reply to my question Q104 Lord Swinfen: I am wondering how well you you gave the impression that the people who were think the Temporary International Mechanism has suVering most for lack of funds at the moment were worked. How has it worked least well? those who were members of Fatah because they were Professor Hassassian: We do not have any problems those who were employed by the government. That with TIM’s work. However, we want TIM also to gives me the impression that the government help the Palestinian public sector. It has to help pay employees were political appointments but I would the wage bill. Our basic problem today is the wage be interested in the statistics that you will be bill. When we talk about 162,000 employees in the producing for us if you could give some indication as public sector, all of them are predominantly Fatah to how this is aVecting the relationship between and not Hamas. The boycott has impacted Fatah and Hamas and Fatah, because it must have a bearing on President Mahmoud Abbas more than Hamas. the stability of Palestine as a whole. Hamas did not have many of those working in the Professor Hassassian: For 40 years Fatah was in public sector as they rejected the Oslo accords. Such charge of the Palestinian people. It led the struggle funds were not transferred to help in paying the for national liberation. Fatah was predominantly wages. That created the economic instability. The breadwinners for almost one million people come elected during the 1996 elections. It controlled the from the wage bill and TIM did not contribute a public sector. Hamas was always been in the minority penny in that direction. Hamas have been managing of opposition. The best Hamas could get in terms of to smuggle money through border crossings in order public support was 13% in the past. With the to support the people. The imposition of the boycott corruption within Fatah, and with the dire economic has tremendously aVected President Mahmoud conditions, along with the settlement activities, and Abbas and his oYce. Everybody thinks that he has the Israeli incursions, the elections were a protest been collaborating with the United States and Israel vote which gave Hamas the edge to win the elections and so far he did not get anything at the end of the in 2006. When I say “Fatah”, I refer to it, as a mass day. That is why the popularity of my President is organisation. It does not have an ideology. It believes going down. The people are suVering tremendously in the liberation of Palestine. It is not like a political and now they are on the brink of starvation. faction that has been putting people to support itself. Lord Lea of Crondall: We are going to have to try and All these people are considered to be either pro-Fatah get our brains round the statistics and it is going to be or independents but they have been in the public quite diYcult because you have referred to two flows sector. When we talk about the eVect of non-payment of statistics to do with salaries. This is quite of wages to these people, we are trying to push these independent of the 800 million euros or whatever it is people towards being extreme. That is why President going to be next year. I was wondering if you could Mahmoud Abbas says time and again that the try and give us your version of the statistics international boycott is not going to help him in comparing the flows, plus or minus the boycotts and bringing Hamas forward. It will alienate him more the Israeli flows, the European flows and the and more from the people because he fails to pay the Americans flows. I know it is diYcult but, on the bill at the end of the day. When we talk about 162,000 other hand, it is necessary, given all the points you public sector employees, it does not mean that there have made, for to try to understand how the diVerent are no Hamas people there because we do not have flows have changed. people with badge signs of, “Hamas”, “Fatah”, Chairman: You said that you had a full statement “Popular Front” or “Communist”. These are there of some of the financial relationships. It would assessments but our impression is that the majority of be helpful to us if you could submit in writing to these people are pro-Fatah and not pro-Hamas. us a statement as to how you, from the Palestinian perspective, see the varying flows of aid over a run of recent years, not only to the Palestinian Q106 Chairman: What could the EU further do in Authority but for other particularly humanitarian relation to the capacity building of the Palestinian causes, and if you could indicate in that what you administration? The second matter is in relation to see as being the impact of the constraints that have the progress made in relation to the security sector. been imposed since the election of Hamas into the Could we have a sentence on each? 3676421003 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

38 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian

Professor Hassassian: If we talk about the capacity access of freedom of movement and goods. All that is building, there has been a lot of partnerships evolving not helping the Europeans in carrying out their along the process since 1993. One of them is the Euro- missions in the development process of the Med Partnership. That has been very instrumental in Palestinians. I do not believe that there are certain enhancing the prospects for peace in the Middle East. pitfalls in the mechanisms that were put in by the However, it has failed in my opinion because the EU Europeans. lacked more of an assertive, political role in the peace process. Indications are that actions by the US do not Q108 Lord Lea of Crondall: Have there been audit reflect the latter’s enthusiasm about the idea of studies on the cost eVectiveness in your having such a relationship between the PA and the administration as well as the EU auditing? Europeans. Last but not least, the EU has increased Professor Hassassian: Yes, there have been some inward looking more today, as the accession of 10 studies and if you need me to I could supplement that new Members, the eastern bloc, which consumed in the statistics. much of the EU political and financial resources at Lord Lea of Crondall: I think it would be interesting. the expense of expanding. Still we believe that the Thank you. capacity building that has been rendered by the EU to the Palestinians has been phenomenal. I think it is Q109 Lord Anderson of Swansea: We have talked so moving in the right direction. Today we have experts far about government to government and EU to your in my part of the world that have been influenced and authority. Clearly in current times of internal trained vigorously in trying to create that kind of instability, it is very diYcult to attract private sector capacity. On the question of security, the EU played investors. Can you say a little about your own a phenomenal role in the area of security by giving involvement, successes or otherwise, with the City of Y training for our o cers and in the area of reform, for London as a major mobiliser of funds? When, as we example, it played a seminal role in the reform of our hope, conditions stabilise there will be a greater judicial process and in training our police possibility for private sector investment. administration how to understand the law, how to Professor Hassassian: Our private sector is primarily implement the law. I think the Europeans have based on tourism. 80% of the people living in the played a pivotal role in developing our expertise in Bethlehem area are totally dependent on tourism. those areas which are extremely important. With the building of the apartheid wall, Bethlehem is like a prison. We do not receive any tourists and our Q107 Lord Lea of Crondall: There is not much hotels have zero occupancy today. The souvenir evidence of diversion to eastern Europe, I would have shops are not selling their products. The Israelis bring thought, if you look at the quadrupling and tourist buses. They take the tourists to the church, quintupling of the EC since 2000, but that will come they get out but they do not allow them to eat or out in your statistics. How do you go about assessing spend a single penny there. 58% of the income in the success of the EU’s operational missions? Jerusalem comes through the private sector which is Professor Hassassian: In all fairness, all those missions also based on tourism. We have seen the extent to that have been dedicated to work in helping the which the Israelis have been controlling that. The Palestinian people in their infrastructural private sector is very important. We believe that the development, in their capacity building, in the market economy through private sector investment is development of their human resources, have been the only way for democratisation, for building a solid very eYcient. The disruption of Israeli incursions and civil society, and to believe in a liberal way of trying the policy of Israel that has disrupted the to develop our society. performance of the EU in the occupied territories has stalled the development of such instruments that Q110 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Have you tried to have been very helpful in developing the capacity court the City of London as ambassador for your building for a viable state. The occupation has played people? a detrimental role. We cannot undermine the fact Professor Hassassian: I am not a career diplomat; but that the Israelis have not been very helpful, a political appointee. I come from an academic cooperative or happy to see the involvement of the background. I was advised by the Consul General of Europeans in building capacity for the Palestinians. Britain in Jerusalem not to meddle in two aVairs. The intention of the Israelis is still not to have an One, not to meddle in the visa aVairs and second, not independent Palestinian state. What we are seeing on to be engaged in commercial activities. the ground are concrete steps for aborting the two state solution, with the building of the apartheid role, Q111 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Could you answer with the thickening of the settlements, with the about the enhanced European Neighbourhood imposition of military checkpoints and with the Policy? I do not know whether you have followed closures of the borders and the prohibition of the this. What expectations, if any, do you have? 3676421003 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:47 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

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1 March 2007 Professor Manuel S Hassassian

Professor Hassassian: As far as the European Professor Hassassian: Our experience with regard to Neighbourhood Policy, it has set certain objectives the European Commission’s role in the observation for the Palestinians. Of course it is in the area of of the Palestinian elections is exemplary. The EC political and economic reforms. Its agenda is to build provides hundreds of monitors, as you know, a democratic entity through building institutions and including EU Members of Parliament and oYcials in civil society and to have good governance, all Palestinian elections, contributing to the smooth transparency, respect for human rights, improving democratic process and the transparency we pride the Palestinian humanitarian conditions. ourselves in. The EC directly funds the Palestinian Specifically, the European Neighbourhood Policy central elections. It pays all the bills. The latter has tried to upgrade the scope and intensity of political shown a record of a high level of professionalism and cooperation between the PA and the European neutrality found only in advanced countries. This is Union. It stimulated investment and growth in the instrumental in helping us maintain our unwavering occupied territories for more cultural and scientific commitment to a political system based on links, supporting technical assistance, and in the final democracy and pluralism. We invite and call upon analysis I believe there are deepening trade and the EC to continue supporting the building of our economic relations. The Euro-Med Partnership viable, democratic entity. started with the Barcelona declaration of 1995 and it is good that you have referred to this because I think it is very important. The PA believes that it Q114 Chairman: Can I say on behalf of the formulated a strong partnership with the Euro- Committee you have had a real tour de force today. Mediterranean in establishing good cooperation at You have had a wide range of questions and we are all levels. I believe that, we hope, in 2010 we will very grateful for your answers. We have taken a develop a free trade area. This is the idea behind the transcript of the proceedings. That will be EU Neighbourhood Policy. transmitted to you very speedily and we hope that with equal despatch you can return it to us if there are Q112 Lord Anderson of Swansea: I was a little any corrections to be made. We look forward to surprised at your suggestion that you had been hearing from you particularly with that financial directed by our consul general in Jerusalem not to information that you promised us. When you are meddle with commercial matters. I was thinking sending it, if you have any doubt as to whether we specifically of financial rather than commercial, but would be interested or not, veer on the side of surely is not the encouragement of commercial expansiveness in giving us the information rather relations between the UK and the Palestinian than being restrictive. We would very much Authority part of your remit? appreciate that. On behalf of the Committee, I would Professor Hassassian: Let me qualify my statement to like to thank you very much for coming before us be more specific on the background. I was instructed today. not to encourage economic activity from Palestine to Professor Hassassian: Thank you very much and if I the UK but not the other way round. have not answered any of your questions I do apologise. I do not claim to be an expert on Q113 Chairman: Have you any observations on the everything but I have responded to the best of my European Commission’s role in the observation of knowledge. the election process? Chairman: Thank you. 3676421004 Page Type [SE] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

40 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

THURSDAY 8 MARCH 2007

Present Anderson of Swansea, L Roper, L (Chairman) Crickhowell, L Swinfen, L Hamilton of Epsom, L Tomlinson, L

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Dr Richard Youngs, Senior Researcher at the Fundacion para las Relaciones Internacionales y el Dialogo Exterior (FRIDE), Madrid, and Lecturer at the University of Warwick; and Dr Robert Springborg, MBI Chair in Middle East Studies, and Director, London Middle East Institute, School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London, examined.

Chairman: Professor Springborg and Dr Youngs, we Q116 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: That is slightly are very pleased to see you both this morning. As you historical as to the influence that the EU has had in know, the Committee is carrying out an inquiry into the past. How do they digress now or do they not, the the Middle East Peace Process and the role of the American and EU policies? European Union, and we have a number of questions Dr Youngs: In terms of large principles, perhaps there which we would like to put to you this morning. is not so much digression. I think the diVerence is one more of nuance in terms of where the EU has put its emphasis. I think the EU’s strong point has been to Q115 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: We want to know try and build up an on-the-ground presence, to try really what the objectives are of the EU’s policy with and build links between the Israelis and the regard to the Middle East Peace Process and how Palestinians, to work on social, cultural and they are diVerent from those of the United States. economic co-operation, and the basic philosophy Dr Youngs: First of all, I think the EU can claim that underlay the creation of the Euro- much credit for having influenced international Mediterranean Partnership was that the EU in that debate by setting out very clearly its support for a way could provide a kind of secondary back-up to the two-state solution as far back as the Venice high-level politics of Middle East diplomacy. I think Declaration, and then in the Berlin Declaration, I that model has not worked well. I do not think that it think one can argue, in the sense that the EU position was in itself a badly designed model, the Euro- was one of the factors that influenced or pushed the Mediterranean Partnership and the association US towards an acceptance of the two-state solution. agreements, but I do think the lesson of the last Also key to the EU philosophy and EU objectives decade has been that that kind of focus on low and something for which it can also claim credit was politics, a kind of technocratic back-up to high-level an understanding that a formal peace agreement at diplomacy, can only work if it is conceived as part of the political level would not be suYcient, but this a broader, political engagement which does at least needed to be underpinned by co-operation between enable some of the final settlement issues to be Israelis and Palestinians at the civil society level, at broached. the economic level and that the Peace Agreement needed to be embedded in the kind of regional, co- Q117 Lord Crickhowell: I noticed that one of the operative security framework of the type that had papers that you produced is entitled, “Europe’s worked so well within Europe itself, so I think that Uncertain Pursuit of Middle East Reform” back in V was where the nuanced di erence with United States 2004. We have heard a lot of evidence about the policy came in. Supposedly, EU policy was not about unhappy state of the road map which has been direct security assistance or backing one leader over described with various strong adjectives. The another, but it was about making sure that the Peace suggestion has been made very strongly by a number Agreement was embedded firmly within a regional of witnesses that Europe is in a position, because of framework of co-operation. its massive trading relationship with Israel and Dr Springborg: Let me state at the outset that I see my elsewhere, because of economic factors and because presence as someone who has worked in Palestine on it is seen as less perhaps biased and more neutral in its the ground and, to some extent, in Israel, having sort approach to the various parties, of being able to take of viewed things from the bottom-up, whereas my a much more active and perhaps stronger role in colleague Richard Youngs is a top-down strategist, trying to influence the political policies that you so I will carefully choose which questions I respond referred to. Do you think that is so and would you to or you would quickly discover I do not know as feel that Europe could, or should, take a really much much as I claim to know, so I will keep oV that more active political role in trying to get the whole question. process moving further on? 3676421004 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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Dr Youngs: I think there is no doubt that one of the I suppose it is quite frequently characterised that the shortcomings of EU policy has been that the EU has EU are quite competent to pick up the bills and sign failed to use its economic leverage and its on-the- the cheques for the flanking measures, but what are ground presence it has built up through various aid the specific areas of political engagement that you initiatives as a leverage to try and nudge progress on think we are failing to make and could usefully make the bigger final settlement issues. I think we have to which would not engage us in a major falling-out of be realistic in terms of our expectations of what the strategic policy with the United States itself? EU can achieve at that political level on its own, but Dr Youngs: I would try to put the stress on the I do think it should be using its on-the-ground conditions that would help sustain peace over the presence to have a more positive impact at the longer term, and I think that is where you can add political level. It is often pointed out that the road value politically to the plethora of initiatives aVorded map itself was essentially a European creation, a by other international actors. mixture of Danish and German ideas, and that, when that road map was being drawn up, the UK itself was trying to use its influence to encourage a more Q119 Lord Tomlinson: Yes,but thatisin the long run. proactive and balanced engagement from the Bush In the long run, we are all short. We have to get to Administration. Therefore, there has been some peace before we can have all the measures to support political-level engagement, but I think in general the the Peace Process, so are there political initiatives that EU has been too willing to accept that its role is to we, as a result of our economic muscle in terms of the build up this incremental, on-the-ground presence as flanking measures, ought to be taking and are they in a support for progress at the political level and has contradiction to any of the American initiatives? not really made the link between its low politics Dr Youngs: I am not sure they are necessarily in presence and progress at the political level. Obviously contradiction, but I think where the EU can add the EU cannot seek to play a high political role in value is precisely through this institutional reform opposition to the main diplomatic players in the agenda. It is where it does have some history of conflict, but I do think that it could at least begin to success and I think the issue with the three conditions put forward some ideas of how one can build on the which were imposed on Hamas is not that they were valuable aspects of the road map to try and unreasonable conditions in themselves, but the V complement the incremental or sequential approach danger is that that chokes o the possibility of of the road map with a situation where one can dialogue and co-operation on these longer-term broach, and talk about, final settlement issues. I do reform issues in a way that actually militates against think the area where the EU perhaps has the most the prospects for peace over the longer term. The risk credibility, the most leverage, has been on the issue of is that, through putting all the emphasis on these V Palestinian institutional reform. I think this is where three other conditions, the focus is taken o concerns the EU had begun to make some headway and had over issues of governance standards and begun to play a relatively lead role and exerts an accountability within the Occupied Territories that influence over issues which are of day-to-day probably are of greater day-to-day concern to relevance to Palestinian citizens. I think one of the big citizens. They are issues that, even in the short term, disappointments of events over the last year is that it do feed into people’s concerns, do generate instability is precisely this institutional reform agenda that has and that feeds in in a negative way to the Peace suVered most from the boycott imposed last year and Process, so I think it is important to retain the I think the EU has thrown away a lot of the leverage conditions, but to try to press for their fulfilment in a V that it had begun to build up, so, if we are now about way that does not choke o the prospect of co- to enter into a new situation with the formation of the operating on this longer-term institutional reform Unity Government, I would argue that this is one of agenda. In fact, I think that the desirability of moving the priority areas where the EU should look for ways back towards an engagement on those kinds of issues to try and re-engage with the new Government. is recognised. There are many EU voices expressing the desirability of beginning work again on these reform issues and there is lots of talk about Q118 Lord Tomlinson: If I can move on to the broadening out the Temporary International second question, but pick up one or two of the points Mechanism, about reactivating security sector you have just raised, if the EU are going to engage reform work through the TIM, of trying to use with the new Unity Government, are you suggesting initiatives like twinning, like co-operation on that that should be done unconditionally or are there regulatory issues, the kinds of issues and instruments any criticisms you would make of the conditions that that the EU has used with success in other parts of the the EU currently lay down for such participation? world, in the Occupied Territories on the back of the Going on to the main thrust of that second question, Unity Government, and I think that is the kind of in terms of a coherent strategy for the European area where the EU should begin to work much more Union in relation to the Middle East Peace Process, proactively. 3676421004 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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Q120 Lord Tomlinson: I have one more of a reasonable relationship with Israel back for a supplementary question because that struck me generation. Yes, there are very important things slightly as being the ambition of every gambler, of which have been done at the micro-level by the being able to have an each-way bet on a two-horse European Union and the relationship with Israel is race. You seem to be saying to the Committee that now better, but in what way can these micro- you thought we ought to maintain the three points, initiatives be translated into eVective leverage for the but almost find a way of disguising the fact that we bigger issues? Nobody is suggesting, for example, were maintaining them in the hope that we could that the trade relationships with Israel are likely to be make progress. Now, how are we actually going to an eVective lever for pressure. bridge that gap of maintaining the three conditions, Dr Youngs: I would argue that one of the areas where which I think most members of this Committee perhaps we have seen the biggest disappointment in would believe are important conditions to our the EU philosophy has been on the economic side, international credibility, and at the same time hold the fact that Israel has basically disregarded some of them in such almost abeyance that we could persuade the key principles inherent in the Association the Unity Government that we did not really mean Agreement signed with the EU. I recognise that there what we were saying and they could really start are many, many reports over many years which have trading with us? urged the EU to get tougher with Israel and the retort Dr Youngs: I think the issue is the kind of tactics that is always that that would be counter-productive and the EU tries to employ to actually maximise the anyway would not win— possibility of those conditions being fulfilled. I think many EU diplomats have been minded to argue that Q122 Lord Anderson of Swansea: You are the impact of the boycott is that that has helped suggesting that there should be a boycott? moderate Hamas positions and it has pushed it Dr Youngs:—would not win the support of all towards accepting the principle of the Unity Member States, for well-known, historical reasons. Government. I think it is probably more convincing Even if one shares some of that caution and to argue that both Hamas and Fatah have realised scepticism, I think it is undoubtedly the case that one that they are simply fighting each other into a thing that has not been good for EU influence and standstill, that neither can prevail convincingly over credibility is for Israel to have been able to disregard the other in terms of an armed conflict and, therefore, the economic principles of the agreements that it both have had the incentive to enter into the Unity itself has signed with the European Union on the Government. For me, the problem with the EU issue of labelling of products from settlements and on policy over the last year is that the argument was that the Israeli insistence that Palestinian exports to the EU could try to combine the best of two worlds, European markets have to pass through Israeli that it could pressure Hamas through the boycott, intermediaries. I think the fact that the EU has stood but at the same time ensure that basic services were aside and allowed these kinds of things to happen has provided through the Temporary International undermined the EU’s own economic leverage. Mechanism, so it is routinely pointed out that during the last year the amount of EU assistance going to the Occupied Territories has actually increased quite Q123 Lord Anderson of Swansea: That is par for the significantly. For example, the overall EU spend has course. The EU has not insisted on the human rights increased to about $800 million, up about a quarter clauses or worldwide, but are you suggesting that between 2005 and 2006, and a lot of the aid projects these elements in the Agreement can somehow be actually were not cut oV immediately, but were just translated into eVective pressure on Jerusalem, wound down in an ad hoc way. For me, the trouble refugees or whatever? is that, in trying to combine the best of those two Dr Youngs: I would argue that it is at this kind of worlds, the outcome arguably has been the worst of economic level where the EU can operate best, but it two worlds, namely that the EU has increased needs to understand that, after 10 years of the Euro- resources, but undoubtedly has lost goodwill, Mediterranean Partnership, it needs to begin to use popularity and leverage amongst the Palestinians, this very rich, dense network of co-operation on but at the same time the support provided through every conceivable area of policy as a way of gaining the Temporary International Mechanism is a drop in leverage that is actually directly related to the the ocean compared to the magnitude of challenges prospects of the EU’s own instruments working facing the Occupied Territories, and it has not been eVectively. If only the EU would focus on creating the able to prevent quite a significant increase in poverty conditions for its own economic, social, civil society levels amongst the Palestinians during the last year. initiatives to work properly, that in itself could be an advance. For example, the EU has set up a number of Q121 Lord Anderson of Swansea: We agree that the trilateral forums which involve the European Union, Venice Declaration was, as its name implies, in the Israelis and the Palestinians to talk about issues practice pure Euro-rhetoric which put the prospects of practical co-operation, transport, energy, 3676421004 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg infrastructure. Most people argue that, in a way, part of the reason why Hamas won the elections in these provide a useful forum for Israelis and 2006. I think, if we are in a situation where the EU can Palestinians to sit down and talk about issues of move back towards funding longer-term institutional practical co-operation while violence has escalated, reform issues, there are some very important lessons but these forums simply have not been able to work there for the way in which that reform agenda should in the way that was intended and the kind of be supported. I think it is important not to equate philosophy that was expounded when the Euro- supporting democratic reform with supporting the Mediterranean Partnership was set up has not been President or supporting our kind of moderate allies. I able to kick in, has not been able to work eVectively. think in the lessons from other conflict situations For example, whilst the agreement on movement and around the world, it is that kind of logic that gets access has been disregarded, the conditions do not international actors into all kinds of problems when exist for those kinds of instruments to work in the their talk of supporting democratic norms is reduced way they were designed, and I think that is one of the to support for “our kind of democrats”, and I think disappointing aspects of European policy, that these that must be realised on the back of the formation of a low politics instruments have not themselves been new government. able to improve overarching political conditions, but Dr Springborg: I think the EU has gotten remarkably seem rather dependent and reactive on a prior little for the money it has spent in Israel and Palestine improvement in those political conditions. on this whole conflict, and it has done so with regard to both actors. We have heard Richard just describing the inability to induce Israel to comply Q124 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Would you agree that the failure to use those instruments works on with agreements that it has signed for a variety of both sides, not only in terms of the settlements, reasons and, on the other side, with which I am more closures and so on, but in terms of an unwillingness familiar, the inability to translate what has been to deal with the Palestinians in the past before the general budgetary support of a very great amount Hamas victory over matters like the Palestinian into any sort of specific commitment on the part of textbooks praising shahidis and the corruption which the Palestinians or accomplishments on the part of was endemic and which went without serious the Palestinians to what we broadly call ‘reform’. It is criticism from OLAF? high politics with regard to Israel and it is low politics Dr Youngs:I wouldhave a greatdeal ofsympathy with with regard to Palestine, and low politics means that, I think. The EU has a potential to nudge essentially state-building, all the various activities Palestinian democratic reform far more than it did do that would go into that. I am more familiar with that although I think the EU is walking a thin line in taking than I am with high policy matters. on the lead role on institutional reform. On the one What is absolutely apparent, in my mind from hand, the big issue of course was still that one cannot viewing the situation on the ground, is that the EU is not have a fully functioning, democratic Palestinian not taken as a serious actor in comparison to the State until occupation is ended, so that is still the big bilateral actors, whether the United States or the issue, and that focusing and pressing on issues of European countries themselves. So the general corruption, for example, should not be a kind of budgetary support, which was, interestingly enough, pretext for taking the critical spotlight oV occupation, never passed through the Legislature, the Palestinian but, on the other hand, I think the EU did realise that Legislative Council, but was provided to the neglecting issues of underlying reform was itself executive branch essentially without any conditions, militatingagainstthe prospectsforlonger-termpeace. undermined the very role of the Legislature in its I think the danger was that, for many years, the EU capacity to oversee the Executive by virtue of being a was pouring money into a black hole and it did not blank cheque to the Executive. This is true of a pursue the reform agenda as vigorously as it could considerable amount of the aid also given by the have done. It was rather ambivalent when elections United States, but it is true of basically all the were postponed in 2005 and the perception was that, assistance given by the European Union. How would in talking about democratic reform, what the EU gentlemen in this august body feel if a major really meant was supporting Abbas against the rise of percentage, (and indeed the Palestinians are more Hamas, and I think the lesson is that, the more one dependent on donor assistance than virtually any does that, the more one actually facilitates the other people in the world), if a primary part of their conditions that explain the rise of Hamas. That is why budget were beyond their oversight? It would I think, in a way, there is something counter-intuitive undermine the very role of the institution. in the current approach of going back to a situation So that is a starting point for the sort of leverage wheretheEUisfavouringasmallcliqueofFatahelites which, it seems to me, is necessary on the part of the around the President’s oYce because, for many years, Palestinians. I would urge the EU, because it has been the EU was funding precisely this clique, their record the primary financial backer—and that financial on governance standards was rather bad and that was backing now is essentially only humanitarian 3676421004 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg assistance, it is nothing more than that, so it has no Dr Springborg: Well, it is gesture politics because institutional carryovers at all now and it had only these monies are very fungible. You are absolutely slight ones before that,—to balance the pressure that right. But we do have the historical example where in it has by virtue of the purse strings. Whether it is in fact, when the monies were not all that great, they the variety of agreements with the Israelis regarding were symbolic, so they nevertheless did have an access, or with the Palestinians for budgetary impact. I think the historical records are reasonably support, the EU should use the purse strings on both clear on that. sides in a balanced way to try to bring the two parties together, rather than leaning heavily on one side or the other. It is perfectly clear that the record has been Q127 Lord Swinfen: I think to some extent you have to lean very heavily on the Palestinian side and very already answered my question, but you may want to lightly, if at all, on the Israeli side. say some more. What, in your view, have been the consequences of the recent EU positions, especially the boycotting of the Hamas-led Palestinian Q125 Lord Tomlinson: We have been hearing a great Government? Do you think the EU should engage deal in the last 10 minutes or so about the money with the national Unity Government and what going to Palestine and how it is being used, and you conditions would you put on that? have now referred to the very substantial funds Dr Springborg: I have just returned from Ramallah actually which go from donors, including Europe, to myself where I was at a conference on administrative Israel. One of the charges which has been made is that reform there. To me, it is a tragedy that a transition a lot of that is being used to provide infrastructure, was not supported by the EU and by other donor road infrastructure, for example, which is almost states. I look upon this not only from the point of entirely related to the construction of a wall and the view of Palestine, but from democratisation more division of Palestine and that this is an area where generally in the Middle East. The January 2006 Europe is eVectively, it has been put in one paper we election, which brought about a change in received, financing apartheid, the separation. Is this government in Palestine, was the first time in the not an area, if we are going to talk about balance, history of the modern Arab world that a free and fair where Europe could be looking at the way that funds election has led to that result. We have, as are being used by Israel as well as the issues we have democratisers, focused very heavily on elections and just been discussing about Palestine? a variety of other activities to promote democracy. Dr Springborg: Yes, it is. The fungibility of those We have never had the opportunity to go the next monies of course is a question and to track how step of what happens if an election brings about a monies are used in a complex, large economy like that change in government, and what would happen of Israel is diYcult. But there is a precedent and that within the executive branch as a result of that. No was the United States when it, under the previous Arab state has adequate civil service laws and Bush Administration, tied its pledge on loans to the regulations that enable a smooth transition of power. non-utilisation of those funds in the Occupied They do not have a history of transition or power Territories. It reduced the amount provided in direct they do not have regulations for it and they do not relation to the amount of money Israel was using in have the tradition of independent civil service the Occupied Territories from those funds. It sent organisations. Here was an opportunity where quite a strong message from the Bush Administration donors have enormous influence to bring about a at that time, which played a part in no small measure transition of power that would insulate, not only at in bringing about a more flexible negotiating attitude this time but in the future, the civil service from the and ultimately, it seems to me, to the Oslo Process. sorts of depredations that Fatah engaged in since the Therefore, there is a precedent in the use of monies, civil service was built up from 1993. There was a huge even when they are quite fungible in the case of Israel, loss of opportunity here to create, in a sense, a to send a message that we, as the United States in that modern independent civil service. That was case or we as the EU potentially in this one, do not overlooked, it seems to me, in the broader issues support your activities, such as road-building in the surrounding this transition, including Islamism Occupied Territories, we do not want our monies versus secularism and a variety of other being used there. Israel is very attentive to that, not considerations. At the heart of the matter was the because the money itself means so terribly much, but opportunity to create a government that would be because of the diplomatic message that it sends. responsive, in a proper way, to the party in power with all the appropriate safeguards, and so on, for the independence of that civil service. That to me was not Q126 Lord Anderson of Swansea: It is a bit of an only a loss for Palestine but a loss for our broader illusion because monies which are not spent for A or democratisation eVort throughout the Arab world. which are not used for A will be diverted to B, so is The consequences on the ground, as I have witnessed that not a bit of gesture politics really? them just recently and over a long period of time, of 3676421004 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg this failed transition, is to undermine the capacity of Dr Youngs: I wanted to reinforce Robert’s point Palestinians to have any idea of their own future. The about the damaging impact on the EU’s wider Oslo process had created in the minds of Palestinians relations with the Middle East because of the fact the a vision of their economic, social and political future EU declined to take the opportunity to support the they were pretty much agreed upon. The election of democratic transition last year. Here one had Hamas called into question that future because it was democratic elections, and the nature of the EU’s a radical departure from the status quo. The failure decision not to deal with the results of those elections of any government to be in power—and I mean that has had a damaging impact for its broader reform because neither the executive nor the legislative agenda across the Middle East. It has strengthened branch nor the judicial branch are working and have the voices of sceptics who argue that the EU is not been working since March/April a year ago— completely disingenuous in its support of democratic means the Palestinians have lost a sense of what their norms and would not be willing to deal with future will be. When you have no vision of the future, democratically elected governments whose policies the idea that you can engage in administrative reform we may uncomfortable with. I have answered some of is lost. Why are we tinkering? There are no clear the points regarding the way in which we could objectives. The cost of the boycott of the Palestinian engage with a new government. While there is a lot of government has been enormous to not only state optimism at the moment about the prospects of doing building in Palestine, but to the image that that, there is one word of caution. Coming back to Palestinians have of themselves and their future; they the point, I do not think we should see the unity are a lost people. That means, in my mind, a government in itself as a panacea. In particular, care desperate people, and a desperate people are far less needs to be taken in case it leads to a situation where likely to be good partners for peace than those who you get an elite power sharing deal with decisions are much less desperate, feel in control of their fate, being taken behind closed doors in a way that and have an idea of where they want to take their diminishes the responsiveness of government and nation. That has been, to my mind, the price of, first, leads to a situation where the population feels more excluded from public decision making. The lesson the election and the outcome, but more importantly from other conflict situations is where that happens it the failure of the transition and the failure of the EU does not auger well for long-term peace. On security to support that transition. sector reform, again this was an area where the EU had begun to build up some quite promising potential Q128 Lord Anderson of Swansea: All institutions are through the COPPS programme, which was initially politicised. It is a fault of government and it is a fault a UK programme and became an EU initiative. One of the non-governmental organisations because their of the disappointing issues is that has basically been counterparts in Palestine are all politicised in some rendered inoperational during the last year. It is often way. They are not impartial. Can you say a little asserted that the EU has had more of a focus on about the security organisations and the extent to genuine underlying reform of the security sector and which EU money in the past went to assist those on does talk about the need to strengthen civilian a sort of job creation basis and how we reform the control over security forces and the need to help security structures? create a single security service, and that contrasts with the US approach where we know that the US Dr Springborg: Richard is better placed to describe has approved quite large funding directly for the the security sector reform eVorts by the EU. I would presidential guard. That diVerence, to a certain just say that I am not so sure that all civil society extent, is real; it is genuine. I think the EU has tried organisations are themselves as politicised, to address longer term reform of the security sectors paradoxically, as the government itself. The but there are shortcomings in the EU’s own government was, in a sense, used as an extension of approach. The EU’s own approach raises some quite Fatah to implement the will of Yasser Arafat and his serious questions. The EU has tried to link various cronies. Many civil society organisations reacted issues of rule of law to its provision of security against that. They wanted to look upon themselves assistance but most of the aid under COPPS has still more in terms of good governance—that they were gone to the provision of hardware, of anti-riot supporting, upholding and advocating the principles equipment, and not really addressing the more of good governance against the government that was fundamental reform issues. Within the Palestinian manifestly bad. I think that engaging with civil territories the COPPS were still perceived as the EU society in Palestine has real potential precisely helping to try and quash Hamas more than giving because there is a substantial commitment to good Hamas a legitimate stake in the provision of security. governance in that sector and much less of a That imbalance is something that would still need to commitment to it in government itself. That includes, be addressed if it is the case that security sector of course, and most importantly, the security sector. reform is brought back into a broadened I am sure Richard has views on the EU support for it. international funding mechanism. 3676421004 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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Q129 Lord Anderson of Swansea: The numbers important contribution. The fact that the United clearly supported a very large security sector, States in particular has hung back from fully sometimes eVectively private armies. Did the EU do endorsing the Mecca agreement, the EU and some of anything to make it more manageable, to reduce the its Member States, but much less so, is not only not numbers? to be thankful for this eVort by the Saudis, but to Dr Youngs: No, I do not think it did. There were forego the opportunity to build on it. It is my various initiatives talking in rather general terms understanding of that agreement that it called for the about the importance of embedding the provision of “respect” by Hamas for existing agreements signed security within a framework subject to the rule of law by the PLO and the PA. It seems to me that is but that is part of my point. I do not think it got down virtually enough to build upon. If they are respecting to this nitty-gritty level of making sure that one was the agreements, then implicitly they are also not simply, or even inadvertently, supporting one governed by the other two conditions that Richard faction against another, rather than incorporating has just referred to. We would do ourselves two this plethora of diVerent security providers into a services by using the Mecca agreement: first, we more coherent framework that really was subject to would reinforce this very favourable role that the democratic accountability. A lot of the ideas were Saudis have assumed for themselves and performed right and well intentioned but that was not really so adroitly, in my mind; and, secondly, we then open working even before COPPS became inoperational up the possibility of confirming through action what after the boycott last year. this term “respect” actually means, and by so doing then gain complete compliance with the other two aspects of the agreement, namely non-violence and Q130 Chairman: You have implicitly answered the recognition of Israel. We have every reason to move second part of Lord Swinfen’s question about in behind this Mecca agreement. whether the EU should encourage others to engage with the government of national unity. The final point was on what conditions should it do this? Do Q131 Lord Swinfen: I wonder if any training is being you have any view on that? given by anyone to the Palestinian administration on Dr Youngs: We have heard a lot of statements and the independence of the civil service. ministerial speeches in recent weeks with prominent Dr Springborg: The UK government did indeed have European politicians saying that we need to judge the a project of that nature which originally was to be new government and Hamas on its actions rather with three ministries and, for a variety of reasons, it than simply continuing to back Hamas into a corner was then reduced to one, the Ministry of Labour and to fulfil the condition, particularly on recognition, in Manpower. That activity was basically just gearing a formal rhetorical sense, in a way that Hamas at the up when the elections occurred. Then the prohibition moment is probably unlikely to do, when actually on dealing directly with the PA was imposed upon the some of these governance issues are of greater project so the UK stepped back from it. I am not concern and relevance to people’s day-to-day aware of any activity with the public administration concerns. Some of the tragedy of putting all the in Palestine that has gone on over any protracted emphasis on the well-known three conditions over period with an objective in mind of creating an the last year is it has diverted attention from some of independent civil service. Now this particular project the very real and serious governance concerns not continues with DFID, but on the grounds of working only related to Fatah but in relation to Hamas as with civil society organisations trying to use them as well. There are some reports that point to concerns leverage to accomplish public administration reform, over the clientelism, the nepotism, that increasingly but not within the public administration itself. conditions the way that Hamas distributes its own network of social benefits. That is a real factor Q132 Lord Crickhowell: We have covered part of the engendering some of the social tensions we have seen ground in the fourth question we had in our paper over the last year. Again the EU has declined to try but it does specifically refer to initiatives under way and improve those kinds of governance concerns to build better relations between Israeli and because of its priority attention on the other three Palestinian citizens through civil society and other conditions. projects, what impact they had and should they be Dr Springborg: I think it needs to be recognised that stepped up. Do you want to add anything to what Saudi Arabia has put its shoulder to the wheel of you have already said in earlier answers? peacemaking in the region, and the fact that King Dr Youngs: I have stated my position that basically Abdullah hosted the meeting in Mecca which the central point here is that a lot of those projects essentially put the Saudis in the forefront of trying to had ceased to function in de facto terms even before not only arbitrate between Hamas and Fatah, but to the Hamas electoral victory. Understandably a lot of come up with a solution that would be acceptable to the attention of debate over the last year has been on the EU and the world as a whole. It was a very the boycott but in some senses the EU model was 3676421004 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg faltering well before that decision. A lot of southern Q134 Lord Anderson of Swansea: They went to sleep Mediterranean governments do not send delegations a little after 2002, did they not? to a lot of the low politics forums of co-operation that Dr Springborg: They did indeed, but it partly has to exist under the Euro Mediterranean partnership. do with regime transition within Saudi Arabia itself Things like the Partnership for Peace Programme and partly to do with the conditions. Now the which was operated under the rubric of the Euro conditions are truly desperate and the Saudis Mediterranean partnership have basically stagnated. typically move when conditions are bad, not when When the Tenth Anniversary of the Euro they are good. Mediterranean partnership was celebrated at the end of 2005 only one Arab head of state attended that Q135 Lord Anderson of Swansea: It is also fair to say summit which sent a symbolic message as to the limits that Fatah has used the Shia charge against Hamas of EU leverage. The impact has been very limited and for example in its anniversary celebrations in it calls for the need not to abandon those types of January. For example, Hamas equating with Shia instruments but to make sure they are pursued as part more damaging because of the Iranians exulting at of a broader political engagement. the Iraqi execution of Saddam Hussein. That was a Dr Springborg: I would like to reinforce what Richard major charge which Fatah was using for its own said. Track two diplomacy flourished during the Oslo purposes against Hamas. process when it looked as if there was an end in site Dr Springborg: Exactly. It is this, dare I say, petty that would result in an independent Palestinian state. politicking, that is now going on between Sunni and Once the second Intifada occurred everything Shia that certainly does reflect animosities even at a unrolled after that, so track two diplomacy became popular level. I do not see us being engulfed in some almost irrelevant. It became irrelevant because both sort of overwhelming Sunni-Shia conflagration in the sides hardened. The overlap between the Israelis and region. It is another factor one needs to be aware of the Palestinians grew less and less. The number of and politicians will use it for their purposes, but is it individuals and organisations that would engage in really so divisive that we have to understand all the V e ective track two discussions and broader “coming events on the ground through that lens? I think the to know one another” discussions significantly answer is no. declined. The lesson is that the climate in which these sorts of interactions can prosper has to be a conducive one. We are far from that at the present Q136 Chairman: We have quite a number of further time. I do not think there is much sense in focusing on questions to ask. Could we move on to the coherence civil society actors when the context is so of the European Union’s position. Reference has unfavourable on either side for them to engage already been made to the activities of individual fruitfully. It is probably not the time to try to push Member States as well as the Union as a whole. How that one too hard. coherent and co-ordinated are the European Union’s policies and instruments? Dr Youngs: This is a long-running problem. There is Q133 Lord Anderson of Swansea: To what extent a clear disconnect between the political diplomatic should we read Mecca in terms of Sunni-Shia and the level and the on-the-ground initiatives and presence concern of the Saudis that Iran was having a of the EU and various European governments. This disproportionate influence on, Hezbollah, Hamas is a problem that is generic to CFSP. I think most and so on? analysts and practitioners recognise that it is a Dr Springborg: I think that we in the West tend to particularly serious problem in the context of the over-emphasise the Sunni-Shia divide. It is certainly Middle East peace process. The long-running charge there. The Saudis are concerned about Iran, but they from the EU high representative and special are engaged with Iran, as recent diplomatic missions representative is, in particular, that the rotating would attest. Some governments in the Arab world nature of the six months’ presidency militates against have overstated the divide for their own purposes. I continuity. One has a situation where for six months do not think in this case in Mecca, and the agreement one presidency will be pushing the EU for greater that was forged there, we need to attribute this to fear engagement and the next presidency will want to rein on the part of Saudi Arabia of Iran getting some sort back. Most people agree this has interrupted the of an upper hand vis-a`-vis Palestine. The Iranians do continuity of the EU policy and made it more diYcult not have many cards to play in Palestine, unlike to build up constant mutual trust amongst the Lebanon. The Saudis have a significant track record diVerent players. That really is a serious problem. of direct engagement in the Palestinian-Israeli Also competitive national diplomacy does not help conflict; after all, it was their initiative back in 2002 the situation. Of course there are a large number of that led to the concerted Arab view of what the bilateral visits made, for example to Lebanon after settlement should be. I think the Sunni-Shia divide is the conflict last summer, that were not co-ordinated possibly a minor factor in Saudi calculations. at the European level. One has a number of European 3676421004 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg governments forwarding well-meaning peace on the one hand, and the Palestinian recipients, on initiatives at a national level that are not co- the other, so as to reinforce good governance and the ordinated at European level. One example was the engagement of civil society productively, rather than recent initiative launched by the Spanish leave it in the rather anarchic state in which it is government. These initiatives do not seem to go presently situated. anywhere and seem just to confuse the picture. The Dr Youngs: One message that was coming very clearly message from the region is this lack of co-ordination from recipients in the occupied territories of makes it very diYcult to understand who is speaking European funding before the boycott was that they on behalf of the EU. DiVerent governments often often werereceiving quitesmall amounts of money for undercut each other or, at the very least, give diVerent very good projects but projects operating on a fairly nuances in their positions so this is an area that small scale in complete ignorance of the fact that definitely needs to be worked on. rather similar projects were being funded by other Dr Springborg: If I could add the sort of worm’s eye European donors and there was a problem of view of this, that is to say the focus on state building duplication. These were not being amplified up to a as opposed to the broader diplomacy in the Middle level where there was some critical mass behind the East peace process. It reflects what Richard was governance agenda. CFSP was designed so that the suggesting about the—incoherence would be too EU whole would be greater than the sum of its parts. strong a term—failure of diplomatic co-ordination The result has rather been the other way around. between the Member States of the EU and the ability There are lots of very good individual initiatives but of the EU to act as a single, coherent actor. these do not really gel together. It is not clear who is With regard to state building on the ground in speaking on the EU’s behalf and the result is the whole Palestine, the EU is not viewed as a terribly major ends up being rather less than the sum of its parts. actor. Despite the fact it is the major contributor, Chairman: Commissioner Michel has reached some these are general budgetary and now humanitarian initiative in this direction that might lead to a greater assistance support funds. When it comes to degree of coordination not only in the Middle East Palestinians, whether in government or an NGO, but elsewhere. looking for partners, they rarely look to the EU; they are more typically engaged with European Member Q137 Lord Anderson of Swansea: At the most senior States or with the United States. The consequence of level it is the visits to Lebanon and elsewhere by this is what was referred to last week at this Prime Minister Blair and President Chirac. In conference as “shopping around”. You could say this addition to the problems of co-ordination between is a good thing that these actors looking for donor the EU and individual national governments, what support are sharpening up their act and trying to can you say about the relationship between the present themselves well, but everyone agrees there is United States’ eVort and the EU on the ground? a downside, which is fragmentation of whatever area Dr Springborg: The Americans prefer to go it alone. one is looking at within the Palestinian body politic— There is very little co-ordination on the ground within institutions and in civil society itself. The between the Americans and anyone else, that I can donors themselves have failed to establish a diagnose. I have worked on both sides of the fence. mechanism between themselves, on the one hand, What I have noticed is the European actors, whether and the Palestinians, on the other. It is essentially a acting in the bilateral context or within the EU, tend chaotic situation of markets on both sides, of donors to keep one another informed. There is a series of looking for activities to support, and those who joint projects outside the structure of the EU that are would be involved in the activities looking for arranged on a bilateral and multilateral basis donors. The consequence of this is that the between European countries. There was a regular aggregation of these particular projects amounts to donors’ meeting in which they invest some of their very little. They are one-oV projects not integrated time and their interests. into a broader strategy. The Americans do not engage in that way. There is Secondly, to build accountable governance the no attempt to co-ordinate their projects with purse strings are very important. As I mentioned Europeans or the European Union. I have been before, if all of these activities are circumventing the engaged in two particular projects on the ground: one state structure, which basically has occurred, then in the legal judicial system and one with the there is no capacity on the part of parliament or local parliament. These were American projects that were governments, for example, to hold accountable both bracketed on either side by European projects and donors and the beneficiaries of projects given donor there was no attempt to integrate sequentially the two support. The EU is only part, in my mind, of a much activities. Substantial amounts of money, in excess of broader problem in this regard, but the EU could US$20 million, were being spent but absolutely no and, in my mind, should take the lead in trying to connection whatsoever between the activities. At the create the interface mechanism between the donors, highest level the Americans tend to pursue matters 3676421004 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg independently and that translates into activities on Administration. Unless you both want to add the ground that are seen within very much a anything on those points it does take us back to relationship between America, Israel and Palestine, where we started. Is the EU addressing the roots of not between America and the other donors who are the problem and is there not a brokerage role of the engaged. more important political kind that could be used at this particular moment. Is there any addition to the Q138 Chairman: The other aspect of co-ordination points already made fairly extensively that you would and coherence is between the various diVerent like to add or have we covered it all? presences of the EU in the area, the special Dr Youngs: I would only add a very short representative, the Commission delegation, the heads observation. It is generally recognised that although of ESDP missions. How well do you feel they are co- we have argued that greater focus needs to be placed ordinated and how coherent are they? on the longer term issues, the temporary Dr Youngs: In terms of overall co-ordination I would international mechanism has been a success in that it reiterate the same points. All I can say on the special did co-ordinate Member State’s funding in quite a representative is that the general impression seems to quid ad hoc way. It contravened or circumvented be that he has succeeded in gaining quite a positive some of the standard intra-EU bureaucracies and reputation and that he has been influential, delays. It is being talked about as a possible model particularly in situations of micro-conflict, release of that could be extended to other conflict situations. Of hostages and these kinds of issues. That is where his course it is a sticking plaster on the problem and influence has been felt most significantly. I do not again, as we move forward to a new situation now, think the presence of a special representative has there is a need to broaden that mechanism but, at the translated into any broader political leverage on the same time, there are familiar concerns over the part of the EU. That is a common situation with the dependency on aid of the occupied territories and the EU’s various special representatives around the need gradually to move back towards a situation world in various conflict situations. One could argue where most of the help is focused on trying to help the fact that they do have a fairly low profile self-sustaining economic regeneration and a move politically is part of what enables them to play that away from the kind of short-term service provision. low profile role rather successfully. I do think the situation exists where at present the special Q141 Lord Crickhowell: There cannot be any representative is seen as being another European V possibility of sustaining economic activity in a totally actor within a rather crowded field of di erent fragmented Palestine where the border crossings are European actors rather than being the single impossible, people cannot travel from A to B, and representative of the European Union on the ground. where economic life is eVectively interrupted at almost every point by the activities of Israel. Is there Q139 Lord Swinfen: I was wondering whether you any possibility, unless you move on to a political thought that the special representative did have settlement, for any kind of eVective economic suYcient legal authority, whether he had the relevant activity? experience and whether he had the political Dr Youngs: No. It comes back to the point again of credibility to achieve what the EU is asking him to why it is so important for the EU to try and use the do. regional frameworks it has set up and operated for Dr Youngs: Personally I would argue that I am not over a decade to try and gain some of that leverage sure it is a question of his formal competences or and understand that a sustainable peace process has political experience; it is more the judgment that to be understood within a regional framework. One working at a low profile level can be most productive issue is the neighbourhood policy. There are new compounded by the need to take care to make sure instruments available both at the bilateral level to try that nothing is done that contravenes the political and provide inducements and incentives for will of any European government. I think that is neighbourhood partners to try and co-operate on again common to the situation within which special those issues situated within the overarching representatives have to work in many diVerent framework of the Barcelona process, and the conflict situations. combination of those two sets of instruments should, Chairman: Can we move on to the impact of in theory, give the EU greater leverage to try and European instruments. address some of those shortcomings that we have talked about. Q140 Lord Crickhowell: We have covered a great Dr Springborg: Could I just add a comment on the deal of which instruments have made the most economy. It is interesting that the Palestinian significant contribution. We have dealt pretty economy has become U-shaped, with a large number thoroughly with what the EU can usefully do to assist of firms constituted by one or two individuals and in the reform and capacity building of the Palestinian then large monopoly firms. The vital middle, the 3676421004 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg small and medium enterprise sector, which in most Palestinians, and so on, with what consequence I other Arab countries is growing and growing rapidly cannot tell you, but it is clearly an area where more enough to begin to think about shrinking civil work should be done. services because of the labour absorption capacity of this relatively vibrant middle part of the private Q143 Lord Anderson of Swansea: I have been sector, is completely missing in Palestine. This is a looking at the fertility rates in Gaza, on the West very good indicator of the problems that you are Bank, and comparing these with the Israeli Arabs, alluding to. The little firms cannot grow and the big and the figures are pretty alarming in terms of Gaza, ones are merely parasitic monopolies. What should which I think would amount to a doubling of the be the emerging Palestinian private sector economy population in 25 years. Obviously that would have an in the middle, which would be the basis for a eVect not only on the economy but on education, sustainable state and presumably for the moderate health and so on. Is there resistance among the attitudes that would make peacemaking much more Palestinians to any attempt to influence population acceptable and successful, is all missing. The closures, policy? the interruptions, all the rest of it, have a very serious Dr Springborg: I am not aware of any active negative consequence for the Palestinian economy. resistance. I recall some statements by Arafat to the As far as the broader question of what are the roots eVect not populate or perish and encouraging of the problem for the EU, it seems to me that the Palestinian women to have children. complete separation that exists between high policy and on the ground policy is one that is unnatural and Q144 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Win by the wombs counter-productive to the interests of the of our mothers. organisation. I witness it from the ground where Dr Springborg: That sort of a general approach: any development professionals who are engaged feel that attempt to control us demographically is part of the the policy makers of the EU, or of the Member States conspiracy to deny us our land. The population of the EU, or of the United States for that matter, growth rate in Gaza and elsewhere can be explained simply are not attending to what the consequences of also in part by virtue of the poverty of the people these high policies are for what is nominally policy living there. If we look at the other area of the Middle for state building. In the absence of any sort of East that has had an extraordinarily high growth serious connection between the requirements of state rate, , that is one of the poorest countries in building, on the one hand, and diplomacy, on the V the world. If the question is does one want to reduce other, then state building always comes o second the Palestinian birth rate, then the answer is two-fold: best. The voice of those engaged in state building has one, you need to have an appropriate development been cut out of the United States’ decision making, it programme that creates the wealth that is an has been cut out of EU decision making and it has inducement for reduced family size; and, secondly, to been cut out of British decision making. One only divorce demography from land because it is now seen pleads here for the responsiveness of the various as a claim on sovereignty over territory. As long as countries and their decision makers involved to listen that is the case, the Palestinians will presumably to their own people on the ground and the continue to populate at a high rate. consequences that high policy has for the economy, Chairman: Can we try and keep to the European for the polity and for the society. That voice does not Union questions? get through even within government itself, to say Lord Anderson of Swansea: It is relevant in the sense nothing of the world beyond. that the European Union could have, if it were acceptable, some form of assistance on fertility rates Q142 Lord Anderson of Swansea: It is obviously and population growth. diYcult for external donors to encourage SMEs but do you think anything is being done on the ground in Q145 Chairman: We have begun to cover the that respect? questions in 10 and 11 on the impact of the Dr Springborg: Very little is being done to help the occupation and on the TIM. Could we go on to a economy now because the broader political setting is question on the EU’s operational missions, the EU not conducive to it. I am not familiar with any BAM Rafah and we have some reference to the particular activities going on with them at the present COPPS. Would you like to say anything about the time. There could be but they have escaped my border resistance mission? attention. What has happened is the World Bank Dr Youngs: The basic problem is one similar to the supported a region-wide economic organisation problem that has undermined the eYciency of the headquartered in Cairo and its particular self- COPPS mission, namely that these kind of self- assumed mission has, for several years now, been to standing security missions are left rather vulnerable if encourage appropriate policy frameworks for the they are not backed up by political engagement, if emergence of SMEs. They have engaged with they are not linked into the kinds of carrots and sticks 3676421004 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg of the EU broader policies, like the Euro- again, for example addressing some human rights Mediterranean partnership or the neighbourhood issues through a new informal EU Israeli human policy. The border mission, like COPPS, has been rights dialogue,butof courseone stillhas some doubts suspended; it is not operational. The co-ordination of over whether this neighbourhood action plan does Member States to nations was done rather quickly in really have the carrot to exert influence over Israel. an ad hoc way rather successfully but the mission Israel is not eligible for large amounts of EU funding never got to Rafah. When the crossing point was under the new European neighbourhood partnership closed when the Israeli soldier was kidnapped, the instrument; it only gets a very small amount of aid for EU could not do anything to prevent that even regionally linked projects because of its high per though its own security advisers were arguing that capita GDP. There the EU’s carrots pale in they could guarantee security. This practical on the comparison to the direct military assistance provided ground presence and the potential of that on the by the United States. Also a crucial question is that so ground presence ends up looking very divorced from far there has not been much talk about specifically the EU’s overarching role. linking all these ways of bringing Israel into existing EU programmes to conditions relating to comprehensive peace negotiations. I think that is Q146 Chairman: We have had some references perhaps where the EU could develop its incipient already to the problems and the lack of impact of the neighbourhood policy. There are advances there. Euro-Med partnership recently but the European Some have advocated a more creative use of the neighbourhood policy is being developed. I wonder principle of variable geometry, for example talking whether in particular ways you can see it fulfilling a about oVering the prospect of Israel aligning itself to useful function in terms of the problems we have been CFSP positions. Of course, in the current discussing. circumstance that might be rather too ambitious but it Dr Youngs: Yes, I can. The neighbourhood policy opens the prospect of using the neighbourhood policy V o ers real potential because it focuses on the bilateral to gain some leverage over broader political issues. level relations individually with the occupied territories and with the Israelis. Diplomats feel it can be used in a more agile way. It enables the EU to Q147 Lord Crickhowell: The role of the Commission modulate responses, rewards, inducements in a more in the Palestinian election Dr Springborg has already precise way. That is the case and that bilateral link spoken of the failure to follow-up with the transition through the neighbourhood action plans is something butisthereanyothercommentyouwouldliketomake very positive and should be encouraged. Of course, at aboutthe EuropeanCommissioninthe observationin the same time that should not be developed to the the election in relation to the transition? detriment of the regional philosophy underlying the Dr Springborg: It was an important role. The Barcelona process that again was one of the strong European Union brought a stamp of certification to points of the EU’s understanding that a peace process those elections which was very important. Had the had to be embedded within a regional framework. In outcome of those elections been in serious doubt it two ways the neighbourhood action plans could be would have had still more negative consequences important. I would think that if we do move forward than the actual ones of the Hamas victory itself. The to a situation where the EU can re-engage with a new European Union, with others, did a professional job unity government, putting on the table the prospect of in its observation. I think it was very important for a full implementation of the action plan with the opening up at least the possibility of a transition. The Palestinian Authority that could provide real failure to support the transition is another matter, incentive and inducement both to Fatah and Hamas but the role of election monitoring, especially in this within that unity government. Second, more broadly, very sensitive case of those 2006 elections, was an is the question of whether a neighbourhood action important one and was done well. plan could provide the EU with the means of greater Dr Youngs: I would agree with that. The EU provided leverage over Israel. Since the action plan was signed very valuable support to the Central Electoral in 2004 with Israel actually a lot has been going on in Commission and that played a very influential role. terms of technical preparations to bring Israel into a The EU had already begun to play an influential role very large number of EU programmes on the in electoral observation in the presidential elections environment, transport, energy, culture, research, at the beginning of 2005 where the EU Commission education, a whole range of ideas for deepening co- did make some quite pointed criticisms about Fatah operation with Israel. I think that ought to be manipulation of those elections. That helped set in intensified as a way of gaining leverage over the final train a process where the transition was possible. Of settlement issues. OYcials insist this does represent a course the political decisions based on those step change in relations with Israel. They insist that criticisms over the conditions of the elections were because of the inducements on oVer through the not actually commensurate with those criticisms. action plan Israel has begun to engage more positively While this might seem water under the bridge now, I 3676421004 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:17:58 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

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8 March 2007 Dr Richard Youngs and Dr Robert Springborg think the lesson is that the EU’s ambivalence over Dr Springborg: To reinforce what Richard said, the elections from the mid-1990s in the occupied opportunity of the formation of a National Unity territories was designed to keep the rise of Hamas at Government provides a rare occasion in which the bay but, in fact, simply compounded the conditions two things that we have talked about, high and low for its ascendancy. policy, can be brought together. Both the acceptance of that government and then a certain amount of conditionality imposed on the basis of the Q148 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Clearly there are expenditure of EU funds for the improvements of major constraints on people-to-people contact governance and state building, naturally go together between Israelis and Palestinians. Occasionally we in my mind. Sending the high level signal that we are have visits of mothers from both sides who have lost willing to work with you and here is how we are going children. There were some cultural and sporting to do it to enhance the quality of government on the developments. How significant are these? Are they ground in Palestine is an opportunity that should not worth supporting at EU level people to people? be lost. Dr Springborg: It is important to keep hope alive. I do not think the broader context at the present time is Q150 Lord Anderson of Swansea: It is probably fair terribly conducive to significant gains from them, but to say that the Mecca agreement was a Saudi our Institute as well supports such activities. We do initiative rather than any wider organisational one. so because we think it is important to keep threads of Obviously the EU would have little, if any, leverage contact there, especially among young people. To over the OIC but on the other regional groupings, the expect those to translate into breakthroughs, either Arab League and the GCC, do you see these having a at the diplomatic level or at on-the-ground suYcient relationship with the EU where the EU can institutional level, would be expecting too much. encourage them to engage constructively and positively in the peace process? Dr Springborg: I do not think these multilateral Q149 Chairman: I wonder if, in conclusion, I could organisations in the Middle East and beyond amount ask you a question which you have not been sent in to terribly much. The Arabs themselves have advance but which does come out of our discussions. allowed, and indeed encouraged, the Saudis to take What do you think should be the key priorities for the the lead in this and they have done so. It would be European Union in its policy towards the Middle counter-productive for the European Union, or any East peace process following the formation of the other external actor, to try to deflect the will, as it Government of National Unity? were, of the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours Dr Youngs: I come back to the point that I think it into trying to find other organisations that would be should try to re-engage with the broader institutional more suitable venues for diplomacy. If this is their reform agenda. That is the area where the EU can choice for diplomacy, I would say good luck to them add value, where it has considerable expertise from and we would be happy to fall in behind. After all, the other regions and where it does have the instruments EU and the US have excellent relations with Saudi at least in place that it had begun to develop over the Arabia so it is fortuitous that they are willing to take last decade under the rubric of the Euro- the lead in this area. Mediterranean partnership. The one other area we have not talked about where the EU can add value is Q151 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Your impression is that the countries in the region have given the the broader regional framework, particularly in leadership to the Saudis, and the other organisations, terms of relations with Iran where the EU has oVered be it the GCC or the Arab League, are unlikely to to oversee or sponsor a regional security framework. play much of a role. That is the right kind of idea. Obviously there are Dr Springborg: Yes, very much so. challenges there in relations with Iran at the moment Chairman: Dr Springborg and Dr Youngs, on behalf as well and the need to pursue the nuclear file without of the Committee can I say how very much we have depriving oxygen from the Iranian reformers who are appreciated your evidence this morning. You have just beginning to reappear. That broader regional provided us with a great deal of very useful framework also needs to be brought into the picture. information in advance of our visit to Brussels in two In particular the EU needs to work on its relations weeks time. Our questions in Brussels will be a great with the GCC that are being pursued very, very deal better as a result of what we have heard from you slowly: 17 years of negotiations for a free trade area this morning. We are particularly grateful to Dr that still has not been agreed to some degree because Youngs, who spends most of his time in Spain, for of the EU protectionism that again undercuts its coming to our meeting today. We are also grateful to strategic influence. There as well the broader context you, Professor Springborg, and thank you very much needs to be understood. again on behalf of the Committee. 3676421005 Page Type [SO] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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THURSDAY 15 MARCH 2007

Present Anderson of Swansea, L Hannay of Chiswick, L Boyce, L Lea of Crondall, L Chidgey, L Roper, L (Chairman) Crickhowell, L Swinfen, L Hamilton of Epsom, L

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: His Excellency Mr Gehad Refaat Madi, Ambassador of the Arab Republic of Egypt, and Dr Mahmoud Afifi, examined.

Q152 Chairman: Your Excellency, I would like to infrastructure and job creating projects at the time. say on behalf of Sub-Committee C which is carrying Unfortunately, all this has been destroyed during the out this inquiry into the European Union and the second Intifada by Israel—destroyed totally, I would Middle East Peace Process, that we felt it was very say. Even all Palestinian institutions were destroyed, important in our inquiry and in discovering about the files were destroyed or taken by the Israelis, and the situation and the potential and the problems that we infrastructure was flattened. We in Egypt are ought to have a chance to talk to people from the pragmatic. We look at any opportunity which exists countries of the region. We were therefore and we try to seize it. We think there is some light particularly pleased that you were able to come and right now which we can build upon. We are seeing the accept our invitation to answer questions this situation being diVerent from a few months ago. We morning. I do not know whether you have an were vigorously pushing forward for a sort of introductory statement which you would like to perception of an end game. What is the end game of make or whether you would like us to ask you some the process? What all parties are to achieve is the questions. Palestinian State at the end of the day, so we have to Ambassador Madi: Not really, my Lord Chairman. I identify the end game and then work to reach it. The do not have an opening statement in that sense. I can initiative we have right now, like the Road Map, answer your questions. there is no timetable in it. It has been put to test for many years but it did not work out. We are not in disagreement with the Road Map, we are supporting Q153 Chairman: Your Excellency, could I ask you if you would like to make a comment on the current it, but we see now that it is not enough, so we have to situation regarding the Middle East Peace Process. go one step further than that. We think the United How far has the Mecca agreement changed the States administration is, also, somewhat landscape for current diplomatic eVorts to relaunch understanding this view. Secretary Rice was talking the process? about the political horizons. The Europeans Ambassador Madi: If we are talking about the peace understand these views also, and everybody is in process in its entirety, I would say that, for the last six agreement of going to the end game. We have seen to seven years, we did not have peace yet and we had many meetings—three meetings since December, in an eternal process with no end game in sight. In fact—between Abu Mazen and the Prime Minister Egypt we do not think this is the appropriate way to Olmert. There are movements: the Quartet did meet proceed, from a phase, to a phase, to a phase, because in Berlin and they are meeting again next month in we have been through many phases in the past, since the region; Secretary Rice is going to meet with the the Madrid Peace Conference and Oslo agreements, Arab Quartet in Egypt this month. So there are some ending up with the Road Map right now. We need a movements in this respect. Of course, most credible process, a process which is sustainable and important, I would say, is the Mecca agreement, not to be subject to any incidents here or there, being which paved the way for the most important aspect, used to derail the process and bring us back always to which is, above all, ending the Palestinian infighting. square one. If one were to compare the situation Last night, there was an announcement that they between the Oslo time and now, one would see that have reached an agreement on the composition of the there is some regression in the progress. Oslo was an National Unity Government and they are going to agreement which did raise the hopes for everyone, submit it to President Abbas, and then on Saturday, and particularly for the Palestinians in the occupied I think, to the Palestinian Legislative Council. territories, and Europe had played a tremendous role Opportunities are there. As they always say: if there in sustaining Oslo, through its commitment for is a will there is a way. We have to work together to economic cooperation and its financial aid to the establish that political will and we are very much Palestinians, the rebuilding of the Palestinian looking forward to a more proactive European role 3676421005 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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15 March 2007 His Excellency Mr Gehad Refaat Madi and Dr Mahmoud Afifi in this respect. This is the moment which we have exists. This is a most important aspect: we have to reached and we have to work together to that end. encourage, together with all parties involved in it, the Chairman: Thank you very much indeed, your creation of this political will in order to solve this Excellency. We will come back to that. problem once and for all.

Q154 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Could I probe a Q155 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Ambassador, little bit further, Ambassador. I very strongly support welcome. The timetable of the Road Map has failed your government’s view that we have to look beyond to reach the very first hurdle, the settlements are the Road Map now but you talk about this enlarging, there is still violence. Do you think mysterious phrase “political horizons and final status possibly the discussion now of the new horizons, of issues in very general terms, and of course that could final status and the problems identified by Lord mean just writing on the back of an envelope: Hannay is really no more than a frustration at the “Jerusalem; refugees; two state”—or whatever the lack of progress or is there a serious prospect of components of a final status would have to be—and progress on those major issues, given the extreme that does not get you very far because we all know weakness of the government of Israel and the big that. Alternatively, you could be saying, “Let us question marks which still remain over the engage in formal negotiations on these final status Palestinian success or otherwise of the Government issues right away, so that when they are cracked all of National Unity? Ambassador Madi: the rest will fall into place.” But that does seem to be In fact, if we can describe the term a bit of triumph over experience. If your government “political horizon” as a big one, we have to make our is talking about something between those two, a own interpretation, with the help of others, that this simple listing of final status agreements and an actual political horizon means the final goal and is not a formal negotiation on them straight away, could you vague expression. We have to work for that. At the enlighten us as to what middle process will be. same time, I think, we have to work together. The Road Map was not really having an exact timetable, Ambassador Madi: Of course one cannot jump it was phased procedures: phase 1, 2 and 3. tomorrow into the final status negotiation. First, the Palestinian national government, the National Unity Government, is to be established. It has to come Q156 Lord Anderson of Swansea: But there was a forward to meet some concerns. I would add to this clear timetable for part 1. that the new Palestinian government is totally Ambassador Madi: The problem with these phased diVerent from the former one, which was dominated procedures is that any party, particularly the Israelis, by Hamas, and was boycotted nearly by the will come in and say, “The Palestinians did not do international community, so we are opening a new this and that, so phase 1 is not being implemented, we chapter in this. This has to be understood in this cannot go to phase 2.” Any small incident is being context. There is a new avenue being opened. Hamas used and abused in order to stall the transfer from would have only nine portfolios in this government phase 1 to phase 2. I think the Palestinians, also, on out of 24, so it is not a Hamas-dominated their part, did not fully implement phase 1 in that government, it is a National Unity Government. sense. Over and above the negotiating power with Israel rests only with President Abu Mazen. Hamas has no Q157 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Not in terms of the role, whether within the government or outside the cessation of violence. government. As I said before, we have a new opening, Ambassador Madi: I am saying we are not thinking a new opportunity, we have to seize it. Otherwise, the that they have fully implemented phase 1. EVorts situation is going from bad to worse, and it will go have to be combined. Now we have a new approach. further than that, given of course the other crisis in We have a new phase, we have a new chapter, a the Middle East. We are not indeed pushing for Mecca agreement, and the composition of the jumping immediately into the final status National Unity Government. We have to work for negotiation, but we have to have some sort of a this approach, to make it work and to present to the timetable, to be clear to everyone entering those Palestinian people, to the international community negotiations that the end game is this and that in the and, above all, to Israel per se that this may work and final status negotiation with regard to Jerusalem, give it a chance. Let us see what the government is with regard to refugees, with regard to the Palestinian going to do with everyday policy. Let us see the State borders and so on and so forth. Of course I international community’s reaction to this would mention also the existence of the Arab government . We want the international community initiative of 2002, which is still alive, and is a to support this government, not necessarily to have comprehensive one. Combining all those initiatives direct contacts with Hamas ministers. Abu Mazen is together will give us a better idea about how to there. 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15 March 2007 His Excellency Mr Gehad Refaat Madi and Dr Mahmoud Afifi government were the finance, foreign aVairs and the of the Arab world, and this worries us very much. Yet interior. They are not Hamas people in the new Iran has a serious issue with the West and is trying to government. We have to be innovative in our play some cards in its hands in the conflict, as we see it, approach. We have to be flexible as well. There are in Lebanon, and, as we see it, in Palestine with Hamas, some things, like the renouncing of violence, which is but, more importantly, in Iraq. Those proxy issues are of the utmost importance for a process to take oV and very much aVecting the process. We have to have a to be credible and sustainable, but renouncing of clear vision. I would say Iran is an important Islamic violence should be on both sides as well. Israel should country; it has its own interests. Yet for Iraq and stop its targeted assassination, Israel should stop its Lebanon we think the most appropriate solution is continued incursion into the Palestinian territories. hands oV: hands oV Iraq, hands oV Lebanon, let both We should not, as a matter of fact, try to find an solve the problem domestically without foreign excuse here or there in order to stop our eVorts—and intervention. This was also the press declaration being I am talking about the Israelis as well as the issued after the meeting of the neighbouring Palestinians. countries and the five permanent representatives of the UN Security Council: the Iraqis do not want outside intervention. We are calling for that and we Q158 Lord Chidgey: Ambassador, you have had the have to make every possibly way to prevent Iran, and questions already in advance, which might save a bit the West as well, from using our part of the world as a of time. You have talked about the pragmatic theatre for settling any disputes between them. Of approach of Egypt and also the flexibility in this, course we are concerned about, also, the nuclear which is something we applaud and welcome, but I programme of Iran—very much concerned. We have would like to know from you how you feel you could to acknowledge that any country member of NPT has apply this more sophisticated political dimension that a right to a peaceful use of nuclear energy, but we are Egypt proposes to have too to the problem. What role going to very much resent any country in the region canEgyptplay in contributing tothepeaceful solution possessing nuclear weapons, whether it is Iran or to the problems, particularly given the complexities of Israel, and this has to be clear also for the stability of the regional situation, which I think Egypt our part of the world. understands better than many? You have touched on Lebanon already but you have not mentioned Iran, as far as I can recall, in your opening remarks. We see Q159 Lord Crickhowell: Ambassador, the primary Iran as a huge issue in this whole settlement, as we see job of this Committee is to examine the role of the Syria as a huge issue in the whole process. Wrapping European Union in the whole peace process. You that together, could we have your views on how Egypt have said that you hope that the European Union can pragmatically and flexibly play an important role would play a more proactive role and that is in the process with regard to the regional dimension? something that has been said by a number of or our Ambassador Madi: As we all know, we are vigorously witnesses. Europe has played a considerable role in pursuing a comprehensive and lasting peace in the providing financial support and in electoral Middle East for the last 30 years, since Sadat’s historic supervision and the transfer to the new electoral visit to Jerusalem. Thirty years. We have the arrangements, but what role would you like to see experience. Egypt is in a unique position, in that it is Europe now play? What is your concept of the “more the only country in the world that maintains contact proactive role” and the role of the EU in the Quartet? with all parties, no exception to that. This gives us the Ambassador Madi: I remember, during the Oslo advantage of talking, contacting, convincing or process, the European Union at the time was the main attempting and trying to convince others of our provider of financial assistance to the Palestinians— approach. We are in almost daily contact with and they did a wonderful job. Again, unfortunately, it everybody, including of course the Europeans, and of all has been destroyed by Israel during the Intifada. course on a bilateral level with all other friends in the Yet, at the time, I do remember, as well, that the European Union. We are seeking vigorously the Europeans were complaining about the fact that they settlement which will be accepted by all parties. Of had been assigned the role of the cheque book only course you have mentioned Iran and Syria in this and they wanted to play a more political role in the respect, and we feel that there are some problems, peace process. After over a decade, now an particularly with regard to Iran. Syria is a part and opportunity exists. The European Union and parcel of the process. Syrian land is still being European countries are the adjacent region to us. occupied by Israeli, and Syria is ready, as far as I Everything happening in our part of the world is know, to enter into negotiation with Israel. It has been aVecting Europe and vice versa. The geographical announced several times and I think the Ambassador proximity and historical, political and economic of Syria, who is sitting behind me right now, can better interests of the European Union would make it more dwell on this issue. But, with regard to Iran, Iran now, interesting in developing its role in the political I would say, becomes a new player within the conflicts atmosphere of the whole situation. The EU now is a 3676421005 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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15 March 2007 His Excellency Mr Gehad Refaat Madi and Dr Mahmoud Afifi party, an active member of the Quartet, and it can angle. This is why I call the European role one of an deliver alsoa political messageto otherparties.Again, honest broker whom we trust. from the historical perspective and from the excellent relations existing between Europe and the Arab Q161 Lord Lea of Crondall: I think the Ambassador world, or the Middle East in general, we look to is suggesting in both his answers a degree of symmetry Europe’s role as the role of an honest broker. This is or possible symmetry between the EU and the US what we need. This is what can bring about the which may not be possible. The case for asymmetry is political will I talked about: an honest broker, which that the US is a state, a powerful state; the EU is not a can bring both sides together, the Palestinians and state. To turn the question the other way around, we Israelis, as well as others, around the table in a are talking about the role of the EU in the Quartet, for convinced way. It is not to say that this role should be example. The US role in the Quartet, one might say, is in contrast or opposition of the US role. No. It has to combined with the US having a unilateral or bilateral be a complementary role. Sometimes we talk to the relationship with Israel and so there are inevitably European partners about the Middle East Peace degrees of asymmetry. Could you give us some Process and they will tell us, “Go and ask the justification for feeling that the asymmetry between Americans.” We all have to go and ask the Americans, the US and the EU and the constitution of the EU not onlyus butthe Europeans aswell.We have tohave (Britain, France, Germany, et cetera) limits the degree V a combined e ort in order to stress upon the United of symmetry of us having a role which is somehow States and Israel, and the Palestinians as well, that a balancing the role of the US, if that is what you are chance now exists, and if we are really convinced implying, when of course in the Quartet we also have about the existence of the chance we have to work it the US interest right alongside us? through. This is the most important aspect. I am not Ambassador Madi: I think it depends on how one looks talking about pressure but a convincing approach. at the EU system of procedures and role. At the end of Every and each country has interests in the Middle the day, the EU Commission is reflecting the will of all East—and I am talking about the main players—and Member States. It does not have a unilateral position we have to understand the complexity of the situation. in itself. Solana has not had a Solana position but All ofthem understand the complexityof the situation ratheranEU combinedposition.Atthe sametime,the but some are happy that maybe the United States is EU Presidency is participating in the meetings of the playing a leading role, so keep it playing this role, and Quartet. This is also an additional factor, which is also we are not to take any vigorous steps in this direction. reflecting the will and wishes of all members. It is not I think we can have a unified EU policy in this respect. that anyone would seek a friction between US and I am not talking about individual country’s having a Europe. Not at all—because we cannot work within policy but a unified EU policy. such friction. We want a complementary role. Not a division oflabour per se, but the United States is doing Q160 Lord Crickhowell: You have laid great this, the EU is doing that, and maybe Russia and the emphasis on the opportunity provided by the UN also, as members of the Quartet, would have a V changing situation in Palestine with the agreement di erent job in facilitating the process. The Quartet is yesterday. Do you think that is the area, perhaps, aQuartet. Itisnota one-stateforuminthisrespectand where the honest broking role might change the I think all other parties should have their say as well. approach that is being followed up now or are there For that reason maybe we also have called several other areas that you think Europe might seize on? times to include some Arab states in the meeting of the Ambassador Madi: This is one of the areas as well, Quartet which should take place some time. because, at the end of the day, our concern, and the European concern as well, is the Palestinian people. It Q162 Lord Swinfen: Your Excellency, you have is the Palestinian people. They are suVering hard, and already said that the Palestinians suVered because of they have suVered and continue to suVer from the the international boycott on the Hamas-led boycott after the coming into power of the Hamas Palestinian authority. I wondered if you would like to government. Now we have a diVerent government. enlarge on that at all. Also, would your country We will have a diVerent government. This is one support the EU engaging with the Palestinian element. The other element is the role of the EU within National Unity Government once that is properly the Quartet. It has to be emphasised. It has to use its formed? power and influence as the European Union. This is Ambassador Madi: We all know how much the the most powerful block of states right now in the Palestinians have suVered during the boycott. The world and we are looking atit as such. We expect some least is the wage bill which the Palestinian authority movement in this direction, logical approach, could not pay. This wage bill is, I think, for over impartiality in addressing the situation. We are not 160,000 employees who are responsible for over one talking about taking the Palestinian side but about million people, and this is the only source of life for impartiality, looking at the situation from a diVerent them. The idea in its generality is to gain the 3676421005 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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15 March 2007 His Excellency Mr Gehad Refaat Madi and Dr Mahmoud Afifi

Palestinian street to a peaceful solution rather than the involvement of the Europeans in this forum. cornering them and pushing them further to be Lately we have seen that the Europeans are very much radicalised. This is the most important aspect. Since hesitant during those meetings of Euro-Med in Oslo,we were talking about peace dividend, and thisis addressing political issues. In fact, it was to our one of the main aspects in order to encourage the surprise that this forum was established for Palestinian people to support a progressive approach cooperation in all fields—not only in economic, social to achieve peace. They have suVered, they continue to or human rights but, above all, in the political field. suVer. Accordingly, as we see the Mecca Agreement We want a more proactive European role and I and the conclusion of the Palestinian National Unity think—and I hope I am right—the Europeans right as a new chapter, and we have to deal with this new now are very much willing to maximise their role. chapter as it stands, we would encourage all parties, There may be some limitation, but, on our side, on our not only Europeans but even Americans and Israelis, part, we have to encourage them, we are encouraging to deal with this government. Again, I would say, in them. It is not wishful thinking on our part because it black and white: I am not calling for the EU or other is an ownership now for all of us. It is not the issue of countries to deal directly with Hamas. They do not Palestinian, Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Syria. I think needtodothat:theyhaveAbuMazenasthePresident; the process is an ownership by all those people, they have the main three portfolios which have been particularly Europe. encouraged by the Europeans not to be among Hamas, and they are not particularly the finance portfolio. This would have to be received by the Q164 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: We have rather international community with more flexibility in its covered question 7. I think your words, your approach. If we are all concerned about the internal Excellency, were that the EU was assigned the role of situation in the Palestinian territories and we want to the cheque book. I think many of us in this Committee maximise the gains for a peaceful solution, I think would agree with that, that we seem to be the everyone should be with the new government. Maybe paymaster and are not getting very much return for with diVerent levels—but, at the end of the day, who is our money. The way of course to turn money into negotiating, it is Abu Mazen. Hamas is a faction. influence is to threaten to withdraw it. That Perhaps I may add that, at the end of the day, concentrates minds. Is that a role the EU should be governments come and go, but the Presidency and playing? You also went on to say that you saw the EU Abu Mazen is there, and he is the key. They have as an honest broker. There are people who say that recognised Israel. They have done all this in 1988 and individual countries within the EU might be able to do they are continuing to do this. He is the negotiating more with their bilateral relationships with the players party. in this whole peace process than they can collectively. Do you think there is anything to be said for that? Ambassador Madi: First of all, I hope my intervention Q163 Lord Boyce: Ambassador, I wonder if you about the EU role is not to be understood that the EU could say something about the EU relations with should withdraw its assistance if it is not playing a Egypt itself and also expand to say something about political role. It should not. I would say also that an the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership. Is there an economic role is one of the most important roles in ambience there which helps in the Middle East Peace this respect because, at the end of the day, we are Process? talking about peace dividend and peace dividend is Ambassador Madi: As you know, we have excellent being established by economic progress, by an relations with the EU. We have no problems economic role, in order to convince the people in the whatsoever. Sometimes we disagree—on certain street that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, that tactics, not strategies—but most of the time we agree. their life is going to be transformed into a better life, We have concluded the neighbourhood policy, the rather than being confined to the corner and having Action Plan, on 6 March, and it has been signed in no hope. In fact, some of the time or most of the time Brussels, and we are seeing eye-to-eye on most of the during the last few years, we have seen Palestinians issues which we are dealing with. I am sure that not even thinking of today. They have no present to everyone also would remember that the Europeans live or a safe future to think about for themselves and wantedtoplayapoliticalroleand,afterOslo,theyhad their families. The economic side is most important, the experience of Oslo and how to further pursue a but the issue of complaining about the cheque book, certain political role. This is why Barcelona was of being the holder of the cheque book, was a established in a way or another, in order to have a European complaint, and we would understand that, European-Mediterranean forum where all parties to accordingly, Europe wanted to play a more political the peace process are involved in it and they worked proactive role, and we would encourage this, as, for it tirelessly. Yet I would say that Euro-Med did not again, in our relationship with Europe, we look at satisfy, at the end of the day, the political requirement Europe as an honest broker, at the end of the day. or the political aspiration that we have hoped for with The second part of the question, I am sorry— 3676421005 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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Q165 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: It is whether the EU Rafah crossing, doing a very good job. We hope that countries can operate better individual, in bilateral this role can be expanded further and the Europeans relationships with countries in the region. can play more of a role inside the Palestinian Ambassador Madi: The ultimate goal we would like to territories, whether in the monitoring or any see is a unified European role on major issues. But, assignment which would be accorded to the individual countries still can play a very important Europeans in the future. We hope this will be role bilaterally with the Palestinians. For example, understandable. I think Israel now, throughout this the UK is training some of the Palestinian police experience, has some trust in the European role, forces. This is a very good programme and it is because it was always against such a role for many working. It is working and it is working very well. years. On the other hand, with the border crossing at Other countries may do something else with regard to Rafah, no one can enter into Israel proper without education, health and so on and so forth, but, on checking by the Israelis. It is not the crossing itself major issues, like final stage negotiations, like the end when it comes to smuggling weapons or drugs and so game, I think we wish to see a unified position, on. Those are being more or less smuggled through otherwise it will not work. the tunnels—which is a very diYcult issue, in fact— and on our side of the border we are doing our utmost eVorts to prevent this. But, with any border, we have Q166 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Could we turn to to bear this in mind: any border has two sides, not the Rafah border issue, Ambassador. The EU has only one, and they have to be manned properly. provided some assistance on the Egyptian/ Palestinian border at Rafah. Is this more than a kind Q167 Chairman: Your Excellency, I would on behalf of token operation? Doest it have any real capacity to of the Committee really want to thank you very much provide greater assurance to all the parties, including indeed for giving up the time to come and talk to us Israel, that that border is not being abused in one way this morning and to answer our questions. I hope you or another by things crossing it (whether weapons or have not found it too unpleasant an experience. We illicit money or drugs or anything else) or is it just a are very grateful both to you and Dr Afif for having token operation? joined us today and we look forward to being able to Ambassador Madi: We look at it as one of the most keep in touch with the Embassy one way or another important role played by the Europeans so far. Why? in future. Again, our very many thanks. You have For many years we were asking for a European certainly helped us in filling out the picture before we presence in the Palestinian-occupied territories, come to preparing our report, which we will of course presence in the form of monitoring the situation. I let you see. Thank you very much indeed for having have to go back every time to how we look at the been with us. European role as an honest broker, because, this is Ambassador Madi: Thank you, my Lord Chairman. It why we are in favour of a European presence on the was my pleasure. I hope I have satisfied the ground. Israel was always shunning this approach Committee with my answers. To the best of my but, finally, we have a European role now in the ability I did so. Thank you very much.

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: His Excellency Mr Sami MKhiyami, Ambassador of the Arab Republic of Syria, Dr Abdullatis Dabbagh,Dr Hosam Hafez and Mr Jihad Makdissi, examined.

Q168 Chairman: Your Excellency, thank you very Union Committee charged with looking at the much indeed for having come to meet the Committee European Union’s work in the fields of foreign today. We see from your background you have a policy, defence and development systems. We are great deal of knowledge of software and computers. therefore carrying out these inquiries. Next week we As we sometimes have problems working out the shall be in Brussels, where we are expecting to meet computer solutions for Parliament, we may wish for Dr Solana, but we wanted to get a picture of the range you to come to another committee which discusses of views from within the region before we went to those sorts of matters in future. Brussels, which is why we felt it would be very helpful Ambassador Khiyami: I would certainly appreciate for us to have the chance to meet you this morning. that. Your Excellency, I do not know whether you would like to make an introductory statement or whether Q169 Chairman: Today we are very pleased that you you would like us to move to those questions of which and your colleagues have come to meet the we have given you some indication. Committee. We are carrying out an inquiry into the European Union and the development of the Middle Ambassador Khiyami: Could I make a five-minute East. We are the Sub-Committee of the European introductory statement? 3676421005 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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15 March 2007 His Excellency Mr Sami M Khiyami, Dr Abdullatis Dabbagh, Dr Hosam Hafez and Mr Jihad Makdissi

Q170 Chairman: Of course. favouring almost total adherence to the US policies Ambassador Khiyami: First of all, I am very privileged and the other trying to have a distinctive European to be in the House of Lords. I have learned in Britain position vis-a`-vis Middle Eastern aVairs. (4) The how to be extremely impressed by the weight of unfortunate recession of the British role invested in traditions which are really extremely lovable. I really the dialogue between the West and the Arabs is also appreciate the democratic system in the UK. It is an clear. (5) The lack of dialogue with Syria, which honour to be here and to discuss with you. May I limited the ability of the EU to play a more active role start with a few emotional words. Distinguished in the search for peace in the region. (6) The role of Lords, it is diYcult for a Syrian ambassador to the EU in the Quartet is still coloured by American express how important Europe is to Syria. Our dominance. (7) The European position towards history reveals long periods in which my country was Lebanon reminds us of the growth of colonisation in an integral part of the Greek and Roman Empire. the early 20th century. Subsequent events made Europeans visit Syria during the Crusades for over 200 years—most of Q171 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed, your them are, by the way, still there—and made Syrians Excellency. I wonder if we could move to the visit Spain and other parts of Europe for over 800 questions which we would like to discuss with you. years—and most of them are also still there. The We would like to begin by looking at the current social cultural proximity that Syrians feel towards situation and possible ways forward, and then go and Europe and the important economic ties with it make look in more detail at the political role of the our dependence on Europe come only next to our European Union, which of course you referred to in dependence on our Arab neighbours. In addition, the some detail in your introductory statement. I would European Union is to us an insurance that the world like to begin by asking you how you see the current economy and political supremacy would not be situation regarding the Middle East Peace Process. monopolised by one or two nations but will always be Ambassador Khiyami: In Arabic we say that having monitored by Europe with whom we share a great one eye is better than blindness. This could ultimately number of moral and human values. Europe can describe what is happening today. We have sort of create a counterbalance to the American dominance encouraging moves by the USA towards finding a of world technology and the American control of the solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. We hope flow of the world’s oil, and hence dominance of the this is not only a show of sympathy while telling the world’s economy. Europe can ensure that Israelis not to make anything tangible. We hope this globalisation will still open niches of economic is really a serious move. Whether the USA is really opportunities for third world economies. It can also going to invest in finding a proper solution to the ensure that the Middle East would become free of Palestinian-Israeli problem we are not sure. The weapons of mass destruction—but completely free, problem we are still facing is that there is always the not partially free. It can assist the countries around sort of negotiation about land and this is something the Mediterranean to proceed with their reform we do not understand at all. We know for sure, all my V process and become e ective partners of Europe. It generation and all the young Arab generation, that can become a knowledgeable—which is even more Israel has been established as an illegal state. The important than honest—a knowledgeable and honest Arabs now are oVering to make this country legal in broker, assisting the USA and other nations in the the region. This is not to say that we believe it was search of a comprehensive and fair solution to the legal at the onset. It was certainly illegal; however, Arab-Israeli conflict. Europe, my Lords, is there are today children in Israel who know no other economically, politically and culturally more homeland and who consider that they have to live in important to Syria than the US. America only comes this country and have their future in this country, first when we have to defend ourselves from threats, therefore the Arab governments are today more than invasion and sanctions. During the past years the EU ready to follow the Arab initiative of 2002, Land for has faced many political challenges, and its relations Peace. This means that land is intractable: the with Syrians and most of the Palestinians and occupied land has to come back to the countries that probably most of the Lebanese have suVered from were attacked in 1967. Palestinians should have their various inconsistencies. I would ask you to allow me state with East Jerusalem as the capital. to state what I feel. (1) The inability of the EU to Negotiations, in our minds, means: What does Israel devise a consistent, unified foreign policy. (2) Each need to make sure that it has no worries any more EU Presidency seems to have its own agenda of about the peace ahead? Does it need water? Does it priorities, creating further instability in the foreign need more security? What are the measures that have policy. We have seen about 10 diVerent Middle East to be taken in order to make Israel an acceptable initiatives in Europe in the past year. (3) The member of the Middle Eastern community? This, up emergence in Europe of two tendencies, one to now, is being diverted, because, unfortunately, the 3676421005 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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Road Map is still not based on UN resolutions to the are strong, we do not have to negotiate as much as you letter, but is a sort of general plan which does not take want us to. We do not need to” then, ultimately, no the international role considerably into doubt that the Israeli army is stronger than all the consideration. The fact is that the Road Map has to Arab armies together—and even not all the Arab abide by the UN resolution is material in our eyes. armiesbut all theMiddle Easternarmiestogether and, Whether what is happening today is really a step I would say, even with some European armies, but, forward is something conditioned by what the anyway—no doubt they are stronger but this Americans will do next and the role the EU has absolutely does not mean that this will bring peace to decided to play in the future. the region. What will bring peace to the region is a real peace between two cultures. People think that peace is Q172 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Ambassador, only a peace for land. It is also a peace of cultures. The welcome. I have a two-part question. In your Syrian culture is threatened by the Israeli culture as it judgment and that of your country, how much stands right now. If there is peace, there is strength is left in the Road Map? I know from visits to reconciliation between cultures also, and this is really your country that you have been highly critical of the a historic chance that has to be grasped. Concerning phasing, stating that the Syrian track should have the first part of the question, I think that the Road been advanced to place Golan to the first section, so Map initially was a sort of tranquiliser. The Road whatisthecurrentviewofyourcountry?Secondly,the Map, instead of saying, “Let us implement the UN Arab peace initiative of 2002 was led by Prince resolution, said let us give these Palestinians Abdullah. The Mecca agreement was concluded something to tranquilise them” it is like an aspirin pill. obviously led by the Saudis. Is it your judgment that It never defined in detail what to do and what are the the initiative now is being left by consensus of the steps ahead, and now, again, we hear about gradual neighbouring states to King Abdullah and to the implementation oftheRoadMapand theideais really Saudi Arabian government? not there. There is a race against time. Young people Ambassador Khiyami: I will start with the last part of are becoming more and more enthusiastic into a sort your question. The Saudi initiative of 2002 of King of popular war in the region and fanatics are Abdullah did become an Arab initiative due to the increasing in number everywhere, not only on the Syrian support. When Syria went into this Beirut Arab side but also on the Israeli side, and there is no summit conference, it gave so much support for the time. Time is pressing and the Arab initiative has to be initiative. It even tried to convince reticent Arab states taken seriously and the Road Map has to be adapted until it succeeded in doing so, and all 22 Arab to the UN resolutions and the Arab initiative in order countries—which is really a novelty—accepted the to gain the necessary strength it needs to present. Arab initiative. It is unusual for Arabs to agree on an initiative, usually they agree on generalities, but this time they all agreed on one initiative, saying, “Give us Q173 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Ambassador, could back our land. Give the Palestinians their state and we I turn to some of the issues that arise from Syria’s position in the region and also its relationship with the will give you peace.” It is a very important initiative, V my Lord. If we go back only a few months behind us, Lebanon, which of course does a ect the Middle East we will see the eVect of what the Lebanese war has Peace Process obviously in quite a profound way. Is done to the region. The young people in the region indeed Syria accepting and applying all the UN have seen with their own eyes how a small group of resolutions that relate to the Lebanese conflict, from determined individuals could defend their country 435 onwards up to the most recent ones, including against a huge invading army, an army that exists only those that relate to preventing any weapons from in one or two places outside the US, and this army was reaching any of the factions in the Lebanon, and does not able to advance in Lebanon. This is seen by young Syria accept that that is the framework within which it Arab people and they are looking at their should be possible to deal with the Syrian and governments and criticising them: “If we had known Lebanese aspectsofthe Middle Eastpeace?In so far as all this time that 2,000 individuals can do such a kind the contentious issues of the Sheeba farms is ofvictoryoveran overratedarmy liketheIsraeliarmy, concerned, is there any possibility for that being dealt why didn’t we do so a long time earlier?” This is a very with by international arbitration, so that the matter as important phenomenon that is happening in the to whether it belongs to Lebanon or Syria is settled by MiddleEastand thisphenomenon hastobe contained an objective process? We are all agreed, I think, that by wise governments that are still presenting the Arab they do not belong to Israel. They do not belong to initiative as a real solution to the problem. If the Arab Israel but there is still dispute as to whether they initiative does not succeed, this will mean ultimately belong to Syria and Lebanon and my question is: Is chaos. Because if we continue to listen to the Israelis, that something that could be dealt with by an with their famous slogan of “Might makes right. We international arbitration or judicial process? 3676421005 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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AmbassadorKhiyami: Concerning the first part ofyour absolutely not true. Hezbollah is saying,“I will always question, my Lord, Syria has always completely stay around with my arms as long as there is an Israeli adhered to the UN resolution. In fact, sometimes we threat.” Will the return of the Sheeba farms stop the hate to implement the resolution and we do it just Israeli threat on Lebanon? This is the question to because we do not want Israel to say, “You faulted on answer. We do not consider the Sheeba farm as so thisone,sothisgivesus therighttofaultonothers.”So essential in the process towards peace between the we have been scrupulous in adhering to the UN Lebanese and the Israelis. This, added to the fact that resolutions. You remember, for example, the 1559. we believe that all tracts in the negotiation with Israel The1559said thatSyria hadtoleave Lebanonand this are complementary, they are not separate, it is now is what we did exactly. Although we were planning to impossible to create something called an Israeli- do it over the three coming years that followed, we did Palestinian peace and then two years later a Syrian- it in a matter of one month. The 1701 is completely Israeli peace and one year later a Lebanese-Israeli adhered to by Syria. My foreign minister has said it peace. It has to be a comprehensive peace. The only yesterday. This question of crossing of arms is Egyptians have tried that, the Jordanians have tried really very puzzling, because nobody has any proof on that, but in fact we do not have peace in the region. that. It is just being used by media in order to put Although Egypt is the most important Arab state, we pressure on Syria. You know that the Americans have are still away from peace as we were the day the superb satellites up there and they are photographing Egyptian-Israeli peace was signed. every single inch in the region. Not only do we not have these satellite pictures from the Hariri murder, Q174 Lord Lea of Crondall: We have just had a which is what Mr Brammertz is complaining about, parliamentary delegation here from the Lebanon. I but also we do not have any satellite picture about the can assure you that we got on well with all the political Syrian-Lebanese borders and any proof that arms are parties and not because we liked thelook ofsomeone’s crossing these borders. Of course there will have to be V face rather thansomebody else’s,but I take ityou were pictures that di er from what Mr Powell once showed using a certain metaphor there. Could I ask about the the UN Security Council but if it is really serious role Syria sees the EU playing, following the meeting pictures that show that such a thing is happening then yesterday, the day before we saw the FT report of the Syria should be really held as responsible for that. It is meeting with Mr Solana following our visit, an important forEuropeans to understand that Lebanon exploratory visit I guess, from one of the assistant is no longer the Lebanon of the beginning of the 20th secretaries of state from the US. Among the points in century. Today in Lebanon the problem is internal. thisFTreportwasthequestionofan armsembargoon There is a majority and an opposition and the Hezbollah and how that is being implemented, and a opposition says, “We are 60% and despite this we are tribunal whereyour Prime Minister saidthat Syria did considered a minority” and the majority is 40% of the not oppose the tribunal in connection with the Hariri population and it is considered to be a majority. This assassination. These are diYcult questions but they thing has to be sorted out among the Lebanese. If one reveal a sort of substance to a dialogue. Would you Lebanese seems more pleasant to a European because like to comment on the respects in which you see this he speaks better English, better French and looks meeting with Mr Solana opening a new chapter? closer to a European,this doesnot meanthat theother Ambassador Khiyami: In the past two years, we have Lebaneseisdetestable. Onehas to dealwith allofthem faced an attitude of quasi-boycott adopted by some exactly the same way and with Lebanon as an Europeancountries,mostofthem,andtheEUforeign integrated country. It is important to understand that aVairs towards Syria. European oYcials avoided the problem is inside Lebanon and all that we are visiting Syria for almost two years and, although the witnessing right now is a sort of dialogue between the economic relations were still going on, in fact there Lebanese that Syria is supporting tremendously. It is was no real dialogue between Syria and Europe. also tremendously supporting the Mecca Accord However Syrian Ambassadors in European countries which really started in Damascus. Saudi Arabia could continued reallytohave asort ofchannelofdiscussion never have obtained the Mecca Accord without the with the foreign oYces of diVerent European negotiations that happened between President Abbas countries. We see the visit of Mr Solana, as you have and Mr Mashaal in Damascus. But if we continue to said, as a sort of new page. However, there are still of say that Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation and so course diVerences thathaveto besolved. For instance, on, there will be no solution. Lebanon is the Lebanon Mr Solana came with the idea that all European that is today as it is. It should be considered as it is with countries have signed a statement saying that we will all the factions forming the country. The Sheeba farm resume contacts with Syria, which was welcome in is really a minor business. Everybody seems to say, “If Damascus, and Mr Solana said, “You should make we can solve the Sheeba problem then there is no more eVorts to help implement the 1701.” We said, reason for Hezbollah to stay around.” In fact this is “We are more than ready but go check with the 3676421005 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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Lebanese. It is their problem, not ours, after all.” Mr and that, “Otherwise we won’t sign,” so it became a Solana promised to help Syria in starting negotiations sort of pressure too, and Syria was immediately over the Golan. Of course, today, in the morning, I responding to them when we do not really need it. We heard some of the Israeli reactions to that and they are also doing it for your sake. So we got into a were extremely negative, but he said so. He said that situation of total disruption of contacts. Let me Europe will help Syria to recover its occupied Golan. mention to you, for instance, something that touches Concerning the international tribunal, the President the inhabitants of the occupied Golan. The rules of of Syria said to Mr Solana that Syria is absolutely not origin in the European Association Agreement, against the principle of having an international court; signed with Israel, were broken when the EU accepted the problem is the statute that is still discussed by the to consider the products of Israeli settlements, illegal Lebanese, because, as it stands, this statute could even settlements, in occupied territories and, therefore, a drag me, poor, peaceful Ambassador, to the tribunal. fortiori the Syrian occupied Golan, as third-party I mean, it is an open statute. It is totally open. If a products. I do not know if you are familiar with the Syrian commits any mistake anywhere, you can ring Association Agreement: you accept to make a the President of Syria. You can hold the President of preferential treatment for products as long as the Syria responsible. If a Saudi commits any mistake, third-party component of these products is not above and the judge decides to, he can bring the King of a certain percentage. Of course the products coming Saudi Arabia to hold him responsible. This is really a from the settlements would not go beyond this statute that has been done extremely hastily. It has not percentage, so they get the preferential treatment. In been studied according tohigh legal standards and it is occupied Golan they are illegal settlements and there still negotiated between the Lebanese. Once the areSyrianslivingthereandbothhaveproduction.The statute becomes okay, then I think the Lebanese will settlements production is included in the Israeli- obtain consensus about the tribunal. The other European Association Agreement and, at the same problem, of course, is that Syria was never consulted time, there is no special agreement with the about this tribunal. The United Nations started with inhabitants of the Golan telling them, “Okay, Europe the idea that the problem has to be negotiated with the willdeal withyou separatelyand willgiveyoua certain Lebanese government and not with Syria. Syria preferential agreement.” What happens to you, assumed that it had absolutely nothing to do with the automatically, is that you become at the mercy of the tribunal and therefore did not take any stand settlements in order to sell your products or to export concerning the tribunal because basically it is not your products. We are putting the inhabitants of an concerned. If there is anything that would ultimately occupied territory under the mercy of an illegal touch on Syria—not a Syrian citizen here and there settlement in order to survive. Furthermore, the Y but if a Syrian o cial here and there is implicated in nervousness expressed by certain important anything—then of course the statute of the tribunal Europeanchancelleriesfollowingthe murderofPrime has to be discussed with Syria. Syria is not a banana Minister Hariri of Lebanon and the unprecedented republic: it has sovereignty and when we have European intervention in Lebanese aVairs, reminded sovereignty we will not accept anything to happen us of the goals of the European colonization at the unless it is negotiated with us and unless there is a beginningofthe20th century.Europeanambassadors consultation with us. started behaving like high commissioners in days of mandate, giving directives to Lebanese politicians on Q175 Lord Chidgey: Ambassador, you have been what to do and what not to do. This has only very generous in giving us a far-ranging and detailed contributedtoantagonizingSyria. Itisveryimportant view about theEU’s relations with Syria and the peace to know, my Lord, that Lebanon was established in process, but I wonder if you could briefly give us an 1943 on the premise set by its founding fathers that it assessment of what you consider to be the most salient will never be a base or gateway of colonization to the issues and maybe summarise, in an overall way, the detriment of Syria. What is happening or what has EU’s relations and dialogue with Syria with regard to happened in the past 50 years is exactly that. Suddenly the Middle East Peace Process which encapsulates the Syria felt that there is a lot of danger coming from its whole issue. soft belly and from the country that is closestto it. One Ambassador Khiyami: I mentioned where it did not million Syrian families are intermarried with one work well. The Road Map, for instance, barely million Lebanese families, so it really becomes like mentions the occupied Golan. The Association touching aplacesoclose toyouandcausing youthreat Agreement with Syria was held hostage by the EU— through that place. What can the EU do to improve although it was signed as a draft—by the EU Council things with Syria? Certainly I think the EU can play a for the sake of unjustified political agendas. What is big role in helping Syria play its normal role in the worse is that some European oYcials, just before Middle East. Syria happens to be the most important stopping to come to Syria, were telling us to do this geopolitical country in the region. Whether some 3676421005 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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15 March 2007 His Excellency Mr Sami M Khiyami, Dr Abdullatis Dabbagh, Dr Hosam Hafez and Mr Jihad Makdissi important nations like it or not, it is, by chance, that fanatics taking control if that chance was not grasped. we happen to be able to influence the situations in You have identified one possible role of Europe, neighbouring Iraq, in neighbouring Turkey, in which is helping Syria have a part in the overall neighbouring Saudi Arabia, in neighbouring settlement, butwhatwould youliketoseeEurope now Lebanon, in neighbouring Palestine, so, essentially, doing in the settlement? Do you think the fact that the this is a country with an extreme importance Palestinians seem to be moving towards a workable geopolitically speaking. When Europe tries to extend National Unity Government gives us an opportunity? a hand towards Syria, then I think peace will progress How do you think Europe should relate to that? in the region. Syria is most certainly part of the Ambassador Khiyami: Ithinkwhat is mostimportant is solution and not part of the problem. It is important that Europe would cooperate with the new National that in all the calls voiced by Syria for the resumption Unity Government. It should have recognised of of negotiations with Israel over the Golan, I think the course the Hamas government. It is senseless to say all best broker for such talks would be the EU. This the time, “You will not deal with Hamas until Hamas complexthat youare starting to haveas Europeans, as recognises Israel” because Israel never recognised a we have had 100 years ago, of being so weak in front of Palestinian state initially. How do we ask Hamas to the American giant, I think is becoming slowly a recognise Israel while Israel is not recognising fantasy, in the sense that Europe can play a very Palestine? Then we ask Hamas to follow scrupulously important role in the process of peace in the region. the Road Map, although Israel has 100 reservations When dealing with Lebanon, Europe, I think, ought on the Road Map. I think this is a question of double to review its position towards Hezbollah. Hezbollah standards as well. If we ask somebody for one, we ask happens to represent at least 40% of the emotions of the other for one. We may ask him for one prime, sort the Lebanese people and at least 60% of the political of epsilon diVerence, because we understand the choice of the Lebanese people. We cannot deal with strength of the lobby, et cetera, but we cannot ask one this kind of party by just giving a big label “terrorist”: for five against while asking the other for one. This is “terrorist” without proof; “terrorist” while others are becoming really exaggerated. It is very important to killing thousands of people. When Israel comes and cooperate with the new National Unity Government. kills 1500 civilian Lebanese in one short while, in one It is very, very important to stop immediately the month, among them 400 children, we say very little, boycott against the Palestinian people. If these people but when Hezbollah kills 37 Israeli civilians then it is explode, then there is very little the Arab governments the end of the world. This would show you a little bit can do. I think it is about time for Europe to sponsor a the double standards that are happening. These call for an international conference to define double standards are heavily felt in the Middle East. terrorism. We cannot just continue calling terrorists One of the problems of the Arabs of the North—and whoever dares to resist an occupation force. It is here I say “Arabs of the North” meaning Syria, unbelievable. Al-Qaeda people in Iraq are never Lebanon, Palestinian, Jordan, Iraq—is their tenacity. attacking occupation forces. I have never seen an al- You know, they look like Europeans a little bit in that. Qaeda operation against an American tank. I am They look like people of the North in their tenacity. sorry, I have been watching TV even at two o’clock in They cannot be taken for granted. They cannot be the morning, and I have never, ever seen an al-Qaeda takenaccordingto adoublestandardprocess. Thereis operation against an American military personnel. I noway anybodycould do that. Theyprefer—and Iam have seen al-Qaeda attacking women and children sorry to say it—to die and not lose their honour. It is and innocent people around mosques and in markets, extremely problematic, but one has to take us the way and all of them Iraqis. I have seen American bodies we are. I mean, we could evolve and become being booby-trapped by resistance forces through something else in 100 years, but this is how we are remote control devices. This, yes, I have seen, but today and one has to deal with us the way we are. The these are not al-Qaeda people doing it. We call all this way we are is that we would never accept any solution whole lot terrorists. How do we then diVerentiate? A that would not satisfy what we consider as our legal young man wanting to resist occupation, how will he aspirations. understand that this is a freedom fighter and this is a terrorist? Because he will say, “Whatever I do if I want Q176 Lord Crickhowell: Coming back to the central to resistoccupation, whetherIkill100 civiliansor Ikill role of this Committee, which is the job that Europe two occupation military soldiers I will anyway be can do in the Middle East Peace Process, like the called a terrorist, so maybe by killing 100 civilians it EgyptianAmbassadoryou have referred severaltimes will make more media.” The distinction between the to the role of honest broker and the fact that there is a legitimate resistance against occupation and the acts historic chance that needs to be grasped. Indeed, you of terrorism is extremely important to define and I wentfurtherand saidthat therewas no time.You have thinkstillthatterrorism hastobedefined too.Thiscan painted a vivid picture of the risks of the young and be done by an international conference that only 3676421005 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:04 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG5

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Europecan sponsor. Because ifRussia asks forit, then Geneva Conventions which already exist. The it will be said that it is because of the Chechen; if China distinction has been made but, if I am not wrong, your asks for it, it will be said it is because of, I do not know government is not one of those which accepted the what . . . because of Tibet; if the Arabs ask for it, “Oh, Secretary General’s proposals. my God! it’s because they are terrorists, all of them”; if Ambassador Khiyami: We will not accept it because the Americans ask for it, it is also for this and that. you will not consider that killing civilians by Only Europe has the ethical reputation to be able to occupation forces is terrorism. If the occupation help in calling for an international conference to forces tomorrow enter a city in Iraq and exterminate define terrorism. I think Europe can help basing the all, we will still call that terrorism. Road Map on UN resolutions and international law. This should be item number one. You could derive Q178 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I am sorry, from that proposals and changes here, and changes Ambassador, I was not referring to that. there, but the base has to be UN resolutions. I think Mr Khiyami: I did not understand. Europe ought to deal with Lebanonas a whole. I think it should devise a policy characterised by fairness; by Q179 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I was referring to the Western elimination of the Arab-Israeli conflict; and, fact that there is no attempt in the definition to suggest ofcourse,abidebythe EUsecuritystrategyadopted in that an Iraqi who killedan American or British soldier 2003, in particular as it relates to the elimination of is a terrorist because the definition related only to the WMDs in the Middle East. It is very important also killing of innocent civilians. It was not an attempt to not to use double standards here and not to say all the suggest that actions between Iraqis and the American, time, “Maybe a democratic country is allowed to have British and other forces who are in Iraq constituted some nuclear weapons. They are democratic, so we terrorism. cannegotiatewiththem.”If Irantomorrow becomesa Ambassador Khiyami: My Lord, this is happening in Western democracy, it will not aVect the fact that it Israel. No matter what you do in Israel, you are a will always want to have its eye on the oil flow and on terrorist. If the Palestinians go and capture an Israeli the control of the oil flow, so nothing will change after soldier, Shalit, imagine that we know the name of one all. Basically, we should not have double standards soldier and we do not know the names of thousands of concerning the nuclear issue. It is really stated in the people who have suVered from Israelis actions or security strategy of the EU. These are suggestions but, killings. Shalit—and I respect, of course, his agony— most importantly, why do I say “work with Syria”? Shalit. We know him, and those who have captured Because Syria has a very important geopolitical himareconsideredterrorists,althoughheisamilitary. position in the region and Europe has a very The principles are upside down. Now religions are important economic and ethical position in the world upside down, so why not the principles? Mr Bush is andI think the cooperationbetween Europe and Syria teaching us Christianity and Mr Bin Laden is teaching can lead to a lot of positive results in their search for us Islam, so everybody is having his own way. peace. Chairman: Thank you very much. I think Lord Q180 Chairman: Ambassador, on behalf of the Hannay has a final question. Committee, I would like to thank you and your colleagues for answering our questions so fully this Q177 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Yes. I am sorry, it is morning. It has been very important for us to get a more of a statement than a question. Ambassador, picture before we to go to Brussels next week to meet you might find it useful to read the UN Secretary Mr Solana. In view of some of the things you have General’s proposals for a definition of terrorism said, it is also very fortunate that we are meeting the which were contained in his report In Larger Freedom day after the important visit of Mr Solana to which were made available to all members of the Damascus which does suggest there is a new United Nations, because that of course makes a opportunity for the European Union to play an active perfectly clear distinction between acts which are part, not only in other parts of the region but also in its taken against innocent civilians, which are the only relations with Syria. Thank you again very much. We thing that he proposed should be covered by the have appreciated your presence with us today. definition, and acts that take place under an Ambassador Khiyami: Thank you very much. Thank occupation, which are of course governed by the you for your patience to hear my point of view. 3676421006 Page Type [SO] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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THURSDAY 22 MARCH 2007

Present Chidgey, L Roper, L (Chairman) Crickhowell, L Tomlinson, L Lea of Crondall, L

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Director, Middle East, Mr Patrick Child, Chef de Cabinet to Commissioner Ferrero-Waldner, and Mr Hans Duynhouwer, Head of Middle East Unit, EuropeAid, European Commission, examined.

Q181 Chairman: We are extremely grateful to you Mr Child: Perhaps I could answer the question in a for having found time to see us this afternoon. When slightly more general way. Clearly the European we come and take evidence we normally take a Union and the Commission have been working for transcript of it on the assumption that we can use it many years in support of the peace process, both at a for evidence in our report to the House of Lords, but political level and through the economic and if at any stage during the discussions you felt there technical instruments and policies that we have been was some area of questioning where you might be developing. We are a key participant in the Quartet able to speak to us more freely if we were not taking which is the international community body which is a formal record and wish to indicate that to us, the looking after the political process. The European Committee would be quite ready to move into a more Union is probably the major donor historically for informal session. the Palestinians and I think that our work in this area Mr Child: Welcome to the Commission and welcome is a good illustration of how the Community’s to Brussels. I must firstly apologise very profoundly various policy instruments can be used in an eVective for the Commissioner’s absence. She very much and operational way in support of a very challenging wanted to meet the Committee in person but and often very delicate political agenda. I think it is unfortunately she has been preoccupied by the also a good example of how the EU’s various birthday celebrations of the great European project instruments and policies and institutions are able to and therefore is in Vienna with the celebrations there, articulate and co-ordinate with each other, but she was very keen that we meet you and help the notwithstanding the occasional challenges that we Committee with all your questions. Perhaps I could face in agreeing a fully consensual EU policy line on also briefly introduce the colleagues that I have the various issues that we are dealing with. Coming brought: Hugues Mingarelli, who is the Director and more specifically to your question, I just want to Acting Deputy General in DG Relex responsible for mention three historical steps. Before the Hamas the Mediterranean and the Middle East; and Hans Government was elected I would say that the Duynhouwer, who is the Head of Unit in EuropeAid Community support for the Palestinian Authority who has also been working in Jerusalem heading up was crucial and fundamental in keeping the the TIM until quite recently and so can bring some Palestinian Authority alive and helping it to develop very direct experience of that. and keeping it as a potential interlocutor in the peace process, and that was an extremely important contribution Europe was able to make. Since the Q182 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. elections we have been working in an extremely What I would like to do, Mr Child, is to start with our diYcult and complicated political context but I think questions but first do you have an initial statement that with the Temporary International Mechanism— that you would like to make? about which I am sure we will want to hear more Mr Child: I could make a few introductory comments later—and indeed on which we have prepared some if that would help the Committee but equally if you additional documentation which may be helpful to prefer to— the Committee in your work—we have been able to bring assistance to the Palestinian people at a time when the political constraints of working with the Q183 Chairman: You have seen our questions and I government have been the ones with which you are think they probably cover most of the issues which we clearly familiar. I think we are now at a very would want to raise but if there was anything else, interesting and important moment with the perhaps we could come back to it at the end. Given formation of the National Unity Government. The recent developments what steps you feel the visit of the Committee to Brussels now could not be European Union should now take in order to take the timed better from that point of view. The peace process forward? Commissioner with Javier Solana and the Presidency 3676421006 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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22 March 2007 Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Mr Patrick Child and Mr Hans Duynhouwer participated in a discussion among the Quartet The second possibility is that we are allowed to go for earlier in the week. You will have seen the statement selective engagement, namely to contact the ministers of that exchange and there were further discussions at which belong to Fatah and those which are the meeting that the Troika had with Secretary Rice independent. Today this is the most likely scenario. in Washington earlier in the week on how we move In this case we would have to see how we could shape forward. We are clearly now at a point where with the our delivery mechanisms as regards our assistance to National Unity Government, although we have to be make sure that all our funds are precisely targeted to cautious, the conditions are coming into place where those ministers we want to handle them. Under this we can advance the contacts with the non-Hamas scenario we would probably have to extend our members of the National Unity Government and Temporary Interim Mechanism (TIM) and we would therefore reengage and think about the future have to look at whether we can bring some kind of direction of our assistance, returning to some of the technical assistance to those ministers that we are capacity-building, institution-supporting measures ready to handle. The last scenario would be we could that we have been engaged in in the past. We cannot not have any kind of contact with any minister go into a huge amount of detail with you, I suspect, because the first acts of the new Government lead us today on the precise nature of what we will be able to to think that that is the best way to proceed. In this do as events unfold but it is a moment of considerable case we would have to make sure that we continue to opportunity which we have been preparing for for a provide emergency assistance to the Palestinians so little while and which we are certainly keen to take our contingency plans today are articulated around forward. these three main scenarios. Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Lord Tomlinson? Q185 Lord Tomlinson: So do I summarise you correctly then that you have got flexibility in the way Q184 Lord Tomlinson: I gather from that that you that you are preparing your contingency and that are making advance contingency plans and I presume flexibility could visualise some selective engagement that these are to cover the possibility of renewed in circumstances less than the full recognition by the engagement with the Palestinian Authority if the Unity Government of the Quartet principles? circumstances permit. Can you give us some idea of Mr Mingarelli: You are right, we would be in a what conditions you think are likely to be attached to position to deploy again some kind of assistance that engagement and how far are your contingency programme, were we allowed to go for a selective plans advanced? engagement, which means that we could have Mr Mingarelli: The Quartet very clearly stated that political contacts with non-Hamas ministers. Having the degree of our engagement with the new said that, I am not absolutely sure that this is the best government and the modalities of this engagement thing we could do because we would introduce a lot will be dependent on the new Government meeting of distortions in the development pattern of Palestine the three Quartet principles and that this new but, once again, it may be that it is la moins pire des Government will be judged and assessed by its acts solutions. It is not the ideal solution. and results. This means that for the time being we have to watch very closely what is going on and on Q186 Chairman: Could I ask another question as to the basis of the first declaration and acts of the new how it might not altogether be ideal. If in fact money Government, our political leaders will decide on the is going primarily to Fatah ministries this also has degree of engagement we can have with the new something to do with the dynamics of Palestine Government. There are several scenarios. The first politics because it looks, as before, that the European scenario is we are allowed to go for full engagement Union is biased in terms of one group of politicians with all ministers of the new Government. This is within that and this may be counter-productive. probably the most optimistic one and this could be Mr Mingarelli: Our purpose would certainly not be to done only if the three Quartet principles are met and strengthen any faction against any other faction. This the first acts by the Government indicate that the new is not the way that we approach the whole thing. Our Government is willing to help move towards the aim is to back the democratic process and not to back peace process. In this case we would have full “our” democrats; this is not our approach. Having engagement. This would mean that we could resume said that, if we have independent or Fatah ministers political contacts with all ministers. If we can resume in social ministries, let us say the education ministry, political contacts with all ministers we will be in a and we think that there is a need for us to do position to resume traditional forms of assistance something to really improve the way that young such as budgetary support through a single account Palestinians are trained and educated, it might be a managed by the finance minister and all forms of pity not to use the opportunity we have to channel traditional assistance, funding of development assistance through the ministry. The final recipient programmes and projects. This is the first possibility. would not be the minister; the final recipient would be 3676421006 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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22 March 2007 Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Mr Patrick Child and Mr Hans Duynhouwer the young Palestinians. Assistance might be institutions spend one of their most active and channelled through a Fatah minister but at the end of energetic amounts of time on. If what you mean by the day the final recipient for us should be the young taking a more political role however is should the EU Palestinians. Another aspect to which I would like to try to break away from the consensus in the draw your attention is all of this is very preliminary international community and somehow pursue a thinking. It might be diYcult to provide budgetary distinct and autonomous policy outside the Quartet support to one single minister, the funds being to do something diVerent— fungible. You know perfectly well that you can Lord Chidgey: Can I take that point, if I may. provide funds to the health minister but at the end of the day this might fund activities under another Q190 Chairman: Just let us take this point. minister, so it might be useful for us to reflect on other Mr Child: I was going to say that I do not think that forms of assistance, for instance bringing in technical is the way that we should go because I think that if assistance where we provide experts or we transfer you look at the overall political dynamics in the know-how, where we are sure about the final Middle East, the Quartet brings together the right recipient. If you fund rural development programmes group of actors. I am also very encouraged by the by extending seeds, fertilisers and rural credit to the prospect which has now been agreed by the Quartet farmers you know that you will not fund a minister earlier this week to hold their next meeting in the but you will fund the farmers, so we will have to region and also with the so-called Arab Quartet of reflect on all of these things. Obviously a number of leading countries in the region, who must inevitably other parameters will have to be considered such as play a part in the solution. So I think that my answer the security situation and our delivery capacity. We to the question is that we are playing a very active have many constraints around us when we are political role as the European Union, with the designing our assistance programmes. Commission playing its part in supporting that of course, and I am pleased that you are seeing Javier Q187 Lord Tomlinson: Having said all that you not Solana tomorrow, who I am sure will be able to give being so doctrinally rigid in relation to the Quartet you his own insights into all that, but I would not principles that you do not visualise circumstances in want there to be any confusion about the role being which aid could commence? somehow distinct from the collective eVort of the Mr Mingarelli: We are not rigid people. We try to be international community because I think the worst pragmatic and provided we are given a margin for thing that could happen would be that the manoeuvre by our political masters we try to be international community starts to split apart and imaginative. then the future would be a lot less certain.

Q188 Lord Chidgey: Is it time to move on to the Q191 Lord Chidgey: In our evidence we have taken EU’s role in the general sense. Mr Child, when you already in various sessions, one of the things that opened your comments you said that it is a very good struck has us is how people from the region have time for us to be here because so many things were talked very strongly in terms of the importance of the happening, which also meant it is a very bad time for United States and Israel, and to a degree Russia, but us to be here because you are so busy, which we do often they see the EU’s role in the Quartet as the appreciate! funding agency and providing funds to the Mr Child: No, the Commissioner is out of the Palestinians, which clearly we have heard again this country! morning. I just wondered when I asked you that question about the EU’s overtly political role Q189 Lord Chidgey: — And the way you have set the whether you in Brussels see this as a problem, that the scene for us brings us particularly to the question I role of the EU in the region is not seen as a key want to ask you about the EU’s role. Should the EU political broker but more of a funding agency to try take on a more overtly political role in bringing the and keep the thing together, in comparison with the parties to the conflict back to the negotiating process? role of the US in its relationship with Israel? Can and should the EU play the role of an honest Mr Child: I do not think that is entirely fair. Clearly broker? You are inferring that we are almost there on we have been providing the lion’s share of the that but I will come back to you on that. Finally, financial assistance to the Palestinians recently which could the EU now take the lead by developing a has been an extremely important contribution to the staged plan of action with a defined end goal? political dynamic of the region and that of course Mr Child: I think that you are right, my answer is that gives us a degree of leverage and legitimacy also over the EU is already very politically active in this area. the political process. I just give you one encouraging No subject is more frequently discussed at the example which is, I think, illustrative of the European monthly meetings of foreign ministers and it is contribution. There was a discussion in the Council probably the topic which European ministers and the of Ministers in the summer of last year on the Quartet 3676421006 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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22 March 2007 Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Mr Patrick Child and Mr Hans Duynhouwer principles and what we would be looking to see in the agreement and getting the National Unity programme of a possible future, reshuZed Government in place is something that we also Palestinian government would be the type of strongly welcome, including in the recent statement language that was used such as “respect”, of the European Council, which you will have seen, “committed”, “reflected”—there are various words and we are looking forward to the forthcoming used—and the Council of Ministers here came down submit of the Arab League which we hope will to a wording which was then subsequently picked up further provide an opportunity for the Arab states to in the wording of the Quartet statement that give their political support and encouragement to the immediately followed. I think that illustrates on what various actors in the process. I think it is too was an absolutely central question at the time what simplistic to get drawn into the dichotomy that the European contributions can be to those discussions, Americans look after Israel and the Europeans do and the fact that the positions that the EU not look after the Arabs enough. I think they are all representatives in the Quartet take is backed by the active in all relationships and the fact that the full solidarity of the Member States of the European international community is pulling in the same Union also gives us a strength and an authority in direction but with a lively debate with the actors those discussions which is very useful. I recognise I within the international community—and maybe this did not answer the final part of your question about is the answer you are looking to for your question— did we need to have an end goal, that sort of question. helps us to build the necessary consensus. There I think I come back to the importance of the Roadmap which I am sure others have talked to you Q193 Lord Crickhowell: Could I pick up a particular about, we are absolutely behind the Roadmap as a point on that. You began to touch on one point that blueprint for the solution. It has the backing of the I was going to come in with a supplementary on Quartet and there are no other miracle solutions out which is the relationship to what the Arabs are doing there and we need to work single-mindedly in support at this very moment. I hope that the Europeans take a of that. very positive connect with that, but the question also deals with abiding by commitments, and we have Q192 Lord Lea of Crondall: Some of the Arab states heard several times of the financial contributions to implied to us that there is some asymmetry that needs the Palestinians but actually there have been very to be corrected by a stronger role for the EU and their substantial contributions financially to Israel as well, argument about asymmetry is that it is undoubtedly and some views have been expressed to us that we a fact that the United States has a special relationship should perhaps insist or make sure that that money is with Israel, and indeed that is freely said. Do you not being used on infrastructure and so on which is V think that we have now moved to, as you are helping to block o the commercial and economic implying indeed Mr Child, a degree of symmetry or development in the area. Are we being as firm in 100% symmetry where no-one operates outside the ensuring that the Israelis abide by their framework of the Quartet, all traYc is via the commitments? We have talked a lot about Fatah and Quartet, or do you think that we still need, if we are Hamas and so on as to how we can play that card. Is aiming at a picture of symmetry, to make sure that all there an aspect of the relationship with Israel that the major players, and certainly the EU and the US, ought to be considered? share in this concept of symmetry, so long as there is Mr Child: I think that in terms of financial assistance a balance, and it does not have to be the same modus we really are not active in at all the same way with the operandi obviously, but the diVerent modus Israelis and so the question of whether Community operandi must somehow balance? funding is being somehow misused or the conditions Mr Child: Well, I am not quite sure what angle to that we are applying to Community funding for V come into this question. It is clearly something that Israel are di erent does not arise in the same way as we have been active on, as have others in the with the Palestinians. I think it is important more international community, including the Americans, generally—and maybe this is the more important to have very active contacts with not just the question—that we are seen to be even-handed and Palestinians themselves (who of course are a key clear in ensuring that the conditions that we apply to partner in this) but also with the Arab states in the our partners in the region are being properly and wider region. Mrs Ferrero-Waldner is frequently in even-handedly respected. However, the comparison contact with Mr Mussa, the Secretary-General of the between the conditions we are putting on the money Arab League, and we follow very closely the work of for the Palestinians and for Israel does not really the Arab League in putting their suggestions forward apply in that sense. and have been, I think, extremely supportive of the contributions that other Arab states have made to the Q194 Chairman: On the other hand, presumably the process. The recent role that Saudi Arabia has played way in which we deal with issues like rules of origin in bringing the parties together in the Mecca and non-respect of the EU/Israel Association 3676421006 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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Agreement are ways in which our relationship with side perhaps the episode, however unpleasant it may Israel could perhaps be re-examined? appear at the time, and try and come back to having Mr Child: We have had a long-standing discussion got towards the real objective further down the road. with the Israeli authorities in the past about this Mr Child: But I think this is very much in the minds whole question of rules of origin which, after much of the members of the Quartet. This is one of the intense diplomatic eVort including by Peter central questions that we now need to begin to Mandelson as Trade Commissioner, was successful address, and certainly the scenario that you describe in overcoming some of the abuses as we perceived is very familiar and the setbacks that can arise have them of the agreement. The other aspect in which we cluttered our way many times in the past, so it is are very strong and consistent in putting pressure on something which we are encouraging reflection Israel is the problem of the blocked tax revenues about. There are also the meetings that are taking which must ultimately be the only viable solution to place, we hope with ever greater frequency, between the economic needs of the Palestinian Territories. Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas which The sort of assistance which we have been providing may contribute even more than the ideas coming through the TIM, although vitally important at this from the outside from the international community. diYcult political time for the Palestinian population, is manifestly unsustainable over the long term. The only sustainable solution is for Israel to open up the Q198 Chairman: I wonder if we could move on to flows of tax revenues which are legitimately due to some of the institutional issues and indeed the issues V the Palestinian people and territories for their of relations between di erent institutions within the economic activity. Union but also relations between the Union and its Member States. One is concerned as to how far the Union does speak with one voice and in particular as Q195 Chairman: And also presumably to open up a Committee we have looked previously in a report the opportunities for people within Gaza and the we did on Europe and the world last year at methods West Bank to be able to export their products and to of trying to improve coherence and co-ordination of be able to trade and to build up their economy, which European Union policies and instruments. I think we has been relatively restricted in recent months? would be very glad to hear about the mechanisms Mr Child: Indeed. which are in place to ensure the co-ordination of the variety of European Union presences on the ground Q196 Chairman: Could I just go back before we go and in particular through things like the Governance on to something you said about the Roadmap Strategy Group and other ways the opportunities to because although obviously the Roadmap has been bring together the work of the Union but also of its at the centre of what a lot of people have been looking Member States who sometimes, we feel, may not be at, we did hear the American Secretary of State talk as well co-ordinated as they might be. I wonder if you about some sort of new political horizons, and we could tell us something about this. have had people looking at the Arab initiative of Mr Mingarelli: Well, it is no secret that there is some 2002, and I wonder how those all come together and diYculty for our Member States in coming to a whether the Roadmap necessarily has quite such a common position on the most contentious issue in centrality as it did at some time in the past? this area. This is a major handicap to the EU being a Mr Child: The Roadmap remains an extremely major actor, to come back to one of your earlier important element. The diYculty that we have had is questions. Nevertheless, we have tried to develop and that the concept of parallel movement by both sides put in place a number of instruments in order to try on the tracks in the Roadmap never really got beyond to draw our Member States to a common position as first base and so the question, I suppose, today is in often as possible. First of all, as you know, our the search for a new political horizon are there new foreign ministers discuss this issue every month and ideas, new ways of encouraging the parties to take the this is a way to really bring their views and opinions first steps on the road in the Roadmap towards what closer and closer. Then the EU appointed some years we all agree as being the goal of a two-state solution, ago the EU Special Representative Marc Otte. This a viable Palestinian state living side-by-side with was an important role in helping the EU to speak Israel. with one voice. In addition to that, we have our delegations in Jerusalem and in Tel Aviv who Q197 Lord Crickhowell: The argument that has been organise frequent co-ordination meetings with all our put to us is that the trouble with the Roadmap is that Member States to make sure that on the ground there if you have do not have this really very firm end view is strong co-ordination. In addition to that there is every time there is a minor episode along the way it is the so-called EuroMed process where we have a taken as an excuse for stopping and you cannot go number of meetings in diVerent formats in various any further. Somehow if you have got a very clear sectors where we meet and make sure that we vision of what is coming at the end, you put on one exchange views and papers between Member States 3676421006 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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22 March 2007 Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Mr Patrick Child and Mr Hans Duynhouwer on most issues that we have to handle in the region. Q203 Lord Tomlinson: — But not to enumerate There are a lot of entities under which we try to co- them, which ones are the successful ones, which ordinate our views at a technical level and at an historically have been the most successful and which expert level in order to narrow the diVerences at the do you anticipate being the most successful? political level, but it is true that there is still a long Mr Mingarelli: I am not sure that we should way to go in order to get a strong and firm and united necessarily look at history because we are a new actor EU position on the most contentious issues. as the EU and we are developing constantly new tools and instruments. We have currently a new tool which might be powerful, our Neighbourhood Policy, in Q199 Chairman: But even if there was agreement on which we have developed action plans with both the the issues, when we are come to the provision of aid Palestinian Authority and Israel. Under the action and capacity building and development of this sort, plan we have a number of levers in order to push both how far do we have satisfactory co-ordination partners in certain directions, and we will have to use between Member States’ policies because the these ENP action plans as soon as we can. We have Member States spend a good deal of the money to use the Barcelona Process as well. As I told you, we which comes from the European Union directly as have a number of meetings either at ministerial level distinct from money which is transferred. or at senior oYcial level dealing with a number of Mr Mingarelli: We have a number of co-ordination important issues which we can narrow the gap mechanisms. We have first of all the TIM, which has between the parties on important issues. So for me been a way to channel funds not only from the the main instruments which exist today are the action Community budget but from bilateral assistance as plans and the Neighbourhood Policy, the EuroMed well. There is another liaison committee in Jerusalem partnership, and then the range of assistance which has been used as well to try to have an in-depth instruments starting with TIM. discussion on policies and strategies. Our delegation plays a role in co-ordinating the main donors. We Q204 Chairman: Under the Neighbourhood Policy have meetings organised under World Bank auspices as far as these action plans are concerned, there has in order to co-ordinate, so I do not think that the been a recent decision I think by the Council that main problem as regards co-ordination comes when Y countries in this category are able to take part in a we speak about assistance; the main di culties of co- large number of EU policies directly. Do you see that ordination are political co-ordination, not assistance. applying to not merely Palestine and Israel, which we are thinking about here, but also other neighbouring countries in that cluster of countries in the Middle Q200 Lord Tomlinson: If I can just move on to the East? Is that something that is likely to occur in the question of the impact of some of the EU instruments near future? because if we just go back to where we started you Mr Mingarelli: Indeed it will occur. This possibility produced the three scenarios—full engagement, has been oVered to all the European Neighbourhood selective engagement or no engagement—and I think Policy (ENP) partners. This means most countries of it is clear that if it were the selective engagement the Maghreb and Mashrek are eligible under our main mechanism we have got, the TIM, would in fact Neighbourhood Policy and some of these countries be finished. are well-placed to use this possibility. Here again it Mr Mingarelli: Not necessarily. will probably be a way to bring them around the same table to discuss important issues because a political process can move only by discussing the issues related Q201 Lord Tomlinson: I thought you implied it in to the final status—Jerusalem and the borders—but what you were saying that you might have to suspend you can build confidence by handling more and more the Temporary International Mechanism. concrete issues. If you want to look back at history let Mr Mingarelli: Not necessarily. us look back at our history at the way the EU has developed, pooling our coal and steel resources to address a specific problem, and I think that in the Q202 Lord Tomlinson: That being the case, clearly in Middle East we should not neglect the possibility of the recent run the TIM has been a successful bringing partners closer by ensuring strong co- instrument because it has been the only instrument operation on issues like management of water really, but what do you think are the instruments that resources, for instance, or trade facilitation. There is have historically and can in the future make the most a potential there which today has not been fully significant contribution to advancing the cause of exploited but with the development of the new peace in the Middle East? instruments under the EU and no longer under the Mr Mingarelli: We have a number of instruments. Member States we can maybe make some progress in First of all— this regard. 3676421006 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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Q205 Lord Crickhowell: It is all very desirable but Within that the Rafah crossing, although an ESDP not many of the neighbouring countries have exactly mission, has been operating with considerable been eager sometimes to get around the table. How support from Community policies in terms of the do you move them into a more positive reaction? You training and longer-term supporting measures that clearly are seeing this as a potential. I have only are needed ultimately to (we hope) equip the joined this Committee relatively recently but my Palestinians to take a bigger role in managing their impression is that they have not exactly been eagerly own borders. I think that is something else that we embraced generally in the area, so are you suggesting must continue and we are also starting to look, in that there is really going to be rather a change of pace discussion with the Americans, at what might be on this? How do you think you are going to achieve possible at the Karni crossing point, and that comes it? back to what you said earlier about the importance of Mr Child: With the European Neighbourhood Policy the freedom of movement and access agreement and in general it is true that we have diVerent providing an economic lifeline to the Palestinian expectations, diVerent levels of ambition and population. The third element, which is also linked to diVerent priorities with the diVerent partners. It is a what Hugues said earlier, is through the relatively new policy and we have been working on it Neighbourhood Policy and the EuroMed structures for only a few years, but it does, as Hugues has said, and before the Hamas Government came along we oVer very considerable scope for closer and more had taken some quite concrete steps to get three-way eVective relations with all the diVerent countries. In talks going between the EU, the Palestinians and the terms of access to EU agencies and policies I suspect Israelis on trade issues. That is something which in that Israel as a partner is going to be better placed the right political context could also make an and more ready to take up that sort of opportunity important contribution. than say the Palestinian Authority which is still very much focused on what we can do through our Q206 Lord Lea of Crondall: You have mentioned financial assistance of institution-building and infrastructure and co-operation on infrastructure supporting the basic structures of government. To and the Israelis having a diVerent role in it from the come back to Lord Tomlinson’s question, whatever Palestinian Authority. I am wondering in your role as the political environment in which we are working midwife, as I read it, to more joint action, is there a and whichever of the three scenarios that we are thought in your mind about a joint board between talking about, the more we can do to re-engage with Israel and the Palestinians for reviewing the sustainable long-term institution-building infrastructure? If not, why not? Is it because of the supporting of the structures of the government in fragmentation in the West Bank? How would you see Palestine the better, of course working within the this process creating some unified solutions on political constraints that we face. Already we are infrastructure in the West Bank? working with some of the more independent Mr Child: Grand institutional structures tend to Y organisations and the o ce of President Abbas. attract political attention which can then make their Incidentally, one of the biggest success stories of EU smooth and eVective functioning diYcult, so I have support to the Palestinians over time has been the not heard of any such plan; I do not know whether work we have done with the Independent Election colleagues have. That does not stop there having to Commission which has really made that one of the be some rather obvious, pragmatic, day-to-day co- most credible and successful institutions in the operation between Israeli and Palestinian actors at a Palestinian landscape, and I think that is a good non-political level on the whole question of example. So I hope that within the constraints that delivering utilities, of waste disposal and things about Hugues has described and very much with the hope daily life where Palestinian municipalities who in the that the actions of the new Government will enable us past, even those which had Hamas leadership, were in to engage on as broad a canvas as possible, but of fairly frequent and operational contact with their course within the conditions of the Quartet that we Israeli counterparts just to manage the cross-border will be able to take that work forward. We have also story. I would like if possible to ask Hans to add a been working through the Partnership for Peace with little bit more about the concrete side of our co- civil society actors, so looking beyond government, operation and whether there are things he would like and that that has been something which has been to add on the discussion. productive and which I hope can continue. We have Mr Duynhouwer: In terms of concrete actions we have also been doing things like police training and been undertaking, there is this autonomous body, for customs training. I do not know whether Hans would example, work with the judiciary council where we like to add something on this but there is a lot of have been doing training. We are going to work with practical work with the less political and more the Palestinian monetary authority on their internal operational bits of public administration machinery management information system. We have been which are vital for the success of Palestinian society. working of course with customs and we have been 3676421006 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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22 March 2007 Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Mr Patrick Child and Mr Hans Duynhouwer providing funds which will allow for the better that the creation of the Palestinian Unity management of customs revenues, so that is all Government produces such a pressure on Fatah that directly relevant in terms of nation-state building. We there would be a perception of a reduced Fatah have been working extensively in terms of internal propensity to fraud in the future? If you want to financial control with the ministry of finance. This answer it oV the record I would understand. has been a big project with very good results in terms Mr Child: On the record I would say that we have of internal audit and financial control. We are also worked extremely hard both in the past and we will now envisaging extending that to external control continue to do so in the future—and Hans will know where a lot still has to be done. These are all examples this even better than I—to ensure that the way that where we work in terms of capacity building outside we are managing the money that we give to the the autonomous body and also inside the Palestinian Palestinian Authority is controlled in a highly Authority. I suppose that when conditions are right eVective and careful way, irrespective of suspicions we will resume that as soon as possible. that we might have about any particular faction’s propensity to any sort of thinking, and we will Q207 Chairman: That point also goes back to the continue to do that. I think the more important point about the European Neighbourhood Policy answer to the question that you put is what Hugues action plan; as far as that is concerned, I understand said at an earlier stage which is that we are certainly that is currently suspended or is it still operational? not approaching the Palestinian Authority with a Mr Mingarelli: Our action plan with the Palestinian mind to support any particular faction or group. Authority has never been implemented for obvious Mr Mingarelli: Once again our purpose should be to reasons. support the democratic process and not to back the so-called moderates against the so-called extremists Q208 Chairman: The one with the Palestinian our objective should be to assist the democratic Authority has not been implemented? process. It is nevertheless true, to be frank, that it is a V Mr Mingarelli: No, it has not been implemented. problem and it could produce undesirable e ects if we just focus on assisting and backing ministers of Q209 Chairman: But who would have to make the one faction. decision in order to start implementing it. Lord Crickhowell: This has been worrying me ever Mr Mingarelli: since you spoke about the options right at the It is the absence of the administrative V capacity on the Palestinian side and the contacts beginning—and I know I come from a di erent world of a Cabinet which had collective responsibility and policy of the EU which made it impossible to Y implement the various actions spelt out in the action so on—because I find it very di cult to have a picture plan. If we manage now to strengthen the institutions of talking to one lot of ministers in a government but of government it will be possible then to implement not another. I suppose one objective of doing it that this action plan. way is that you can put more and more pressure on Hamas as they come in and they are forming ministries and it might move them, but if you get to Q210 Chairman: But that would be a decision which a position where you are actually only talking to one would be made where? group of ministers and not to others it seems to me Mr Mingarelli: It will depend on our degree of that is an extremely dangerous situation and not a engagement with the new Government. If we are in a helpful one. You did say at one time I think that that position once again of having political contacts and was probably the most likely option to find yourself providing some kind of assistance, for instance in. Throughout this meeting I have been sitting technical assistance for capacity-building and worrying about it. It seems to me a potentially very institution-strengthening purposes, it is clear that dangerous option because here you have had an sooner or later we will be in a position to have a election, helped by the instruments of the EU and so dialogue on the various policies covered by the action on, which has produced a result which the EU does plan with the various ministers and we would be in a not much like and then you get into this position position to implement the action plan, so all will where you are saying we will talk to one lot of depend upon the degree of engagement that our ministers and not another. Can you make me less political masters decide to grant us. unhappy at the end of the meeting about that prospect than I have been throughout it? Q211 Lord Tomlinson: I just want to ask a question and it straddles a couple of the things that we have already been discussing and I want to try to draw a Q212 Lord Tomlinson: I fear not! link between them for my own peace of mind. Fatah Mr Mingarelli: We are working as best we can in the was widely perceived as being corrupt. If we have the political environment in which we find ourselves. I selective engagement option it would be used think we have to be clear about that. There are quite exclusively to Fatah ministries. Do you really believe obvious reasons why the Quartet and the European 3676421006 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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22 March 2007 Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Mr Patrick Child and Mr Hans Duynhouwer

Union has taken the position it has about working as far as bringing much-needed support to the with a Hamas-led Government which was not willing Palestinian people who were suVering very seriously to meet the Quartet conditions. I hope that with the under the eVects of the political crisis and the move towards a National Unity Government that economic isolation that they are facing, and so I think this will lead to a step-by step improvement in the that, yes, it has been successful. As you will know, we political environment which will enable us to reach have already from the initial stages extended quite a out to as much of the Palestinian Government as is lot the scope of the TIM into new areas of activity willing and able to meet the Quartet principles. and I think that it has been encouraging that we have had the continued backing both of the Quartet and Q213 Chairman: It is of course quite important that also of the Member States and the European Union a number of the most important ministries to which for that evolution of its role. As I indicated earlier, I contact has already been made have been held by do not think that the TIM, as its name suggests, is ministers who are neither in Fatah or in Hamas but something which can be a permanent feature of the are technocrats and that facilitates the co-operation I landscape. It is an extremely costly instrument which V suppose and perhaps you would like to say something does not create the sort of lasting e ects in terms of about whether that is in fact the case. building up the Palestinian system of government Mr Child: I would just say that Mrs Ferrero-Waldner which we would all like to see, and so I would much did indeed speak to Mr Fayyad on the telephone prefer us to be, as we develop new ideas for a new sort yesterday and it is clear that in the finance ministry, of international support mechanism for the where we hope we can return to the sort of single Palestinians, starting to work in new ways more treasury account set-up that existed in the past, he directly in capacity-building and institution-building will resume the political position that he used to play with the Government rather than doing the sort of in the past when he was working in a government things that have been covered up to now in the TIM under Mr Arafat. in a yet more elaborate or extensive way. I would like Chairman: We have touched upon the Temporary Hans to say a few words about the financial controls. International Mechanism but I think Lord Chidgey Mr Duynhouwer: Perhaps on the results of the TIM could pursue it a little further. when I saw your question I ran back again to the Quartet statement of 9 May which more or less Q214 Lord Chidgey: We have indeed touched on the triggered all that, where it was mentioned that the impact of the EU in quite some scope, if I may say so, TIM would be a mechanism limited in scope and but what I would like you to do, if you would Mr duration, which operates with full transparency and Child, is to try and summarise for us some of the most accountability and ensures direct delivery of important features. If I could throw you some bullet assistance to the Palestinian people. I think all along questions maybe you could give us some relatively these principles have been guiding us. We made that straight forward answers, if possible. Has the TIM operational in our own concept paper of June last process proved eVective in stabilising or ameliorating year where we said that it should have a quick impact the deepening crisis in the Palestinian territories? on the lives of the Palestinian people by ensuring that That is the first point. Secondly, should its scope be essential services can continue to be delivered and by extended and then what mechanisms and injecting money into the economy. If you look at the safeguards—and you have touch on this already with various windows you can see that this is exactly what Lord Tomlinson about the question of fraud—but we have been doing. Under window two, as is can you give us any specific steer, guidance or explained in the documentation we have prepared, reference to the measures that the Commission has we estimate that about 1.3 million Gazans have implemented for the detection and prevention of benefited from our aid through the fact that we have fraud and misappropriation of EU funds? You did been providing fuel for back-up generators so that say that the Commission has taken steps but is there essential services—health, education—could anything on the record that you could quote as a continue. Another objective has been to facilitate a demonstration of that? matching level of donor support, including that of Mr Child: I have brought, as I indicated earlier, some Arab donors. I think that is an aspect where we have additional documentation on the operation and been extremely successful. We have had great success activities of the TIM which I think includes some of in working with the Member States. The Commission the background also on the control measures, which contributed about ƒ110 million last year. That you may find helpful in your future work, and I am amount has been matched by contributions from the sure that Hans would be able to give you some Member States. That is absolutely unheard of. There additional information on that. Just to give you is not a single other project where Member States bullet answers, to your first question I think that in have moved that fast in matching the contributions the political environment in which we are working of the Commission, and I think that is a real TIM is eVective and in fact is the only game in town European success, and it is not much underlined but 3676421006 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:18:08 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG6

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22 March 2007 Mr Hugues Mingarelli, Mr Patrick Child and Mr Hans Duynhouwer

I think deserves to be emphasised. In terms of control Mr Child: There was some public comment a few measures, of course from the very start this has been weeks ago raised I think by one NGO in the United our biggest concern. We all know the history so we Kingdom which highlighted the bank charges in were very well aware of that. In designing the various particular which had been paid in managing this windows we paid utmost attention to that. If I take money. I think it was unfortunate that those window two for example, the delivery of fuel to the statements were made without first coming to check Gaza power plant, we have been working with an all the detail of the facts with us. We subsequently did international auditing firm which worked on the have some discussions with that NGO and were able basis of agreed audit plans starting from the delivery to explain to them and bring them to a better up to the payment. We have agreed the process with understanding of what we were doing, in particular them step-to-step, so when the fuel entered into the comparisons with the normal costs of making any Gaza, when it was delivered from the Gaza hub to the international payments either in the European Union Gaza power plant, we described in detail what sort of or elsewhere, which were entirely comparable. We control measures had to be implemented in order to also have to recognise that we are working in an have the level of control we wanted to have and to environment where there is a relatively small number make sure that the fuel was not redirected to other of active financial institutions capable of taking on purposes which we did not want. We have been this task and that as a proportion of the amounts of working on the basis of audit plans which we believe money that we were handling they were at a will give us a very high level of assurance. It is the surprisingly low and realistic level. I understand that same for window three, payment of social the NGO in question may have seen this opportunity allowances, where we have been working again with to make a broader political point. To some extent I an international audit firm which has been doing all regret that it was done at the expense of the one sorts of checks—ex ante, ex post—in terms of vehicle of assistance to the very acute humanitarian beneficiaries. We have been working through an needs of the Palestinian populations that we are international bank, as you know, which was in helping and which they too are most preoccupied charge of checking compliance with various about for obvious reasons. regulations in terms of fraud, money laundering, et Chairman: Thank you very much. I think it was cetera, and all that we believe has given us a very high helpful to get that answer from you because degree of assurance. Also in terms of payment we obviously it did cause some concern. Although there have paid directly into the bank accounts of the are a lot of other things which we could raise with beneficiary concerned and if they did not have a bank you, we had for instance an interesting article in the account we made sure that they had to show their Financial Times recently from one of our colleagues identity card so that we were certain that the right and a former colleague of yours Lord Patten, where person was reached. In brief those are the sorts of he pointed out some of the risks of continuing with measures that we have implemented. I could show the blockade, but that is something which we will be you informally audit plans which clearly demonstrate pursuing with him when he comes to give evidence the sort of measures that we have implemented to get before our Committee after the Easter break. I would the necessary assurance. very much like to thank you, Mr Child, and your Lord Chidgey: Is this something you might wish to colleagues for having come and met the Committee take up later? this afternoon. In trying to do a study as a Sub- Committee dealing with the European Union and its foreign policy, it is very helpful to us to be able to Q215 Chairman: I would just like to ask one come to Brussels and to have an opportunity to talk question because you, Mr Child, in beginning to to people who are having to deal with these problems answer this talked about the cost of operating all the time. We realise what a complicated task you through the TIM rather than operating in other ways have ahead of you and we obviously wish you well and making use of the mechanisms of the state, and and hope that one can choose perhaps the more of course there has been critical comment that certain optimistic option rather than the middle option when banks have found this an interesting revenue-gaining things come to be carried out. We will be preparing exercise (although I do not know how profitable it our report. We will of course send you a transcript of has been for them). Is there any way in which the this evidence and in due course we will send you a costs can be brought down because obviously they do copy of the report which we make to the House of seem to have been very substantial? Lords. Again, thank you very much indeed. 3676421007 Page Type [SO] 18-07-07 04:19:51 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG7

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THURSDAY 22 MARCH 2007

Present Chidgey, L Roper, L (Chairman) Crickhowell, L Tomlinson, L Lea of Crondall, L

Examination of Witnesses Witness: Dr Jana Hyba´sˇkova´, Chairman, Delegation for Relations with Israel, European Parliament, examined.

Q216 Chairman:MsHyba´sˇkova´, wearevery grateful in the European Parliament that it would be that you have come to meet this Committee. We are a appropriate for us to ask to see you and we had hoped Sub-Committee of the European Union Committee to see also your colleague who is Chairman of the of the House of Lords and our Committee is charged Delegation for Relations with the Palestine Authority with looking at the work of the European Union in the in the European Parliament. Unfortunately, it has not areas of CFSP, ESDP and development aid. As well as been possible for him to be with us today. We are looking at the regular instruments we also carry out a taking note of what is being said at this meeting. You certain number of special examinations of a particular will be sent a copy of the transcript of that note and problem and we decided that we would like to look at you can correct it if any mistakes have been made. the question of the European Union and the Middle Alternatively, if at any stage in our discussion you East, so we have been taking evidence in London from would prefer us to proceed informally so that a note ambassadors from the countries concerned as well as was not being taken and you would prefer to move from academics and we will be taking evidence from into that mode, we would be very happy to do it like Lord Patten and also from the British minister with that, whichever you are happiest with. responsibility, and interestingly enough next week we Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: Thank you very much. I am sorry for are very fortunate because the Ambassador of Israel the need for clarification but I am not an experienced to the European Union, Dr Oded Eran, is coming to politician. I do not know how familiar you are with London to give evidence to our Committee. While we my CV but I only became a politician when I became are in Brussels we have been seeing people in a member of this house. I was a diplomat who served Commissioner Ferrero-Waldner’s oYce—Patrick 15 years in the Czechoslovakian and then Czech Child and Hugues Mingarelli—and then we will be Foreign Service. I represent a very tiny political party seeingpeopleintheCouncil SecretariatandDrSolana which is not a member of the Czech Parliament and tomorrow, so we are seeing quite a range of people. I would like to stress that I do not represent any What we would like to do today is discuss with you position of my country. I am also here as a member how you see the political role of the European Union of the EPP, the People’s Party but the sole member in the Middle East and then go on to ask you some from the EPP, and so I would rather proceed as the questions on how you see specific aspects of European Head of the Israeli Delegation to the European Union and Israel relations and then perhaps also Parliament rather than necessarily representing any V something on how e ective you feel the European political views of my country or my political family Union’s instruments have been in dealing with the here in this house. As a little addendum—I am from particular problem in the West Bank and in Gaza. I a new country and we are sharing new things with wonder whether you would like to begin with your Europe and my knowledge of European structures assessment of how you see the European Union’s and European systems is as it is since we are new policy on the Middle East peace process really since members to Europe since 2004 so I kindly ask you for the early 1990s and how you would describe the your understanding of my situation. What is my current approach of the European Union. assessment of the EU role in the Middle East peace Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: First of all, allow me to start with a process? I think actually it has changed since the question since this is the first time I have had the beginning of this new century. In the 1990s the honour and pleasure to be giving evidence to the Middle East was still kept as a little bit of a remnant House of Lords. Would you be so kind as to tell me of the Cold War with a quite gradual participation of exactly what is the position concerning the oYciality the United States in the MEPP. I think the situation of my name? Would my name oYcially be part of any has changed dramatically first of all because of the of your report? change in the post Cold War process and then specifically due to US engagement in Iraq. There was Q217 Chairman: There are two bases on which we kind of a vacuum which occurred in the MEPP which can proceed. We thought that as you were the was filled by Europe, but I feel it is more like Europe Chairman of the Delegation for Relations with Israel is drawn to participate rather than it being European 3676421007 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:19:51 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG7

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22 March 2007 Dr Jana Hyba´sˇkova´ activity as such, so it is more that we follow certain Israeli delegation but as somebody coming from a tendencies rather than actively manage them. This is new part of Europe. We still feel that Israel is the my first understanding. I think that actually the same occupying force and that is the main source of lack of holds true for Israel since the Israelis are discovering stability and that is the main source of all the the fact that their relations with the United States, atrocities happening and if we suppressed Israeli due to Iraq and other concerns in the region, are not intentions we would get more positive things from the what they used to be 10 years ago and they are more Palestinians. That is not my reading of the EU and more seeing Europe as a necessary partner for position and I am critical of that. I personally would the future stability and prosperity of their country. I seek more balance and I do not think it is balanced at think that this means change. The role which Europe the moment. That does not mean that I am not for a has to fill in the Middle East peace process is more viable Palestinian state. On the contrary, I took part open than it used to be, which does not necessarily in quite a lot of the negotiations around this and we mean that Europe is filling it fully. I think that there is definitely need to strengthen the Palestinians. I think room for better-structured, more eVective and better- that this is where the Israelis themselves make a tailored EU policy towards the MEPP than we have mistake because they think that building the wall and now. I still think that we react rather than act. I still having the rest behind the wall and throwing the keys think that we have a more short-term than long-term across the wall is the solution, which it definitely is understanding of the situation. I still do not think not. Europe has to work more with the Israelis and that the European Union—and I mean the Union as tell them that they should care more for the a set of institutions, and of course the Council and the Palestinians and that does not necessarily mean only Member States are part of it—has a good talking to the Palestinians and telling the Israelis architectural understanding of all the interplay which “you do your own job”. So this is the political happens these days in the Middle East, concerning framework. We have a problem here very clearly with Russia, concerning China, concerning the US, Mr Solana because he is neither transparent nor concerning the real possibilities for Europe, and accountable to the house. The current set-up of the concerning the region itself. I would call for first of all EU CFSP is bizarre, having a Council which is the a better analytical understanding of the situation of centre of Member States’ decisions and having a the region and better-tailored architecture of our Commission doing its everyday work and having us involvement, which means more experts on the putting forward grand political ideas and then having Middle East than politicians. I would prefer to see it Solana running here and there and doing things that freer from political influences and better suited to the are absolutely not representing new European needs of both partners—the EU and the region. countries nor the position of my political family in From my point of view it is still over-politicised and it this house, so I am very critical here. Concerning our lacks the architectural design and understanding and eVectiveness, given the fact that we do not speak with therefore it is still at a low level of eVectiveness. Point a unified and united voice in the region, if we were less two—and this is very much my personal judgment political we would be more able to come to the EU coming to the European Parliament—the MEPP is and say what is the professional access to the region not just part of the Middle East or the Greater and we would have more eVective action there. Middle East but the EuroMed or the Barcelona Nevertheless as of yesterday, 20 March 2007, there Process. I think that this is diVerent from the US’s was the last statement of the Quartet which I “Greater” Middle East conception and I think the appreciate and I think it is quite a good thing that the European conception is still very much statement is as it is. We welcome and we follow with Mediterranean-based. Here I think it historically deep interest the work of the Palestinian Unity comes back to very much a Socialist predominance Government. Nevertheless, we have be very clear and and the very important role of the countries of the unified and tell the world about the recognition of the southern flank—Greece, Italy, Spain and France. I right of the state of Israel to exist, which does not would rather see it more balanced with the necessarily mean recognition of its current borders; newcomers’, with southern countries’ and with the non-violence, which means more than hudna, and northern countries’ involvement and I do not think respect. It is not only respect (because this is where we this is respected. From my point of view it has too have concerns concerning the PLO) because for much of a Socialist heritage in it and too much of a “respect” there is a word ihtiram in Arabic which southern heritage in it. I am working on changing exists in the Mecca proclamation but we needed the these politics, let us put it that way. Concerning the word iltizam which means “to be bound by”, and this Israeli/Palestinian conflict (which does not is a word we do not have yet, and according to my necessarily mean Israel/Arab conflict) I would say reading if Europe stands unified right now and that it is not yet balanced and that we are much more speaks with one clear voice this will be of much more on the side of the Palestinians than on the side of the help to the Palestinians than if we say, “We would Israelis. Here I speak not only as the head of the like you to have the National Unity Government 3676421007 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:19:51 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG7

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22 March 2007 Dr Jana Hyba´sˇkova´ because this will solve all the problems.” It will not interlocutor there is one kind of co-operation which solve all the problems in my reading. is part of a sub-committee to the political committee and that is the EU/Israel action plan and there is Q218 Lord Lea of Crondall: Can I just pick up a already a working group on what we call counter- point. terrorism. Four or five years ago no-one would have Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: I think I have covered the first few thought that we could have a common EU/Israeli questions. counter-terrorism working group or committee or sub-committee. We have it now and it works perfectly. We were able to get rid of all political Q219 Lord Lea of Crondall: If you glance at the misunderstandings on what the basis for terrorism is questions which you are very heroically addressing and there is a debate on biometrics, there is a lot of without having seen them before, I think you have technical debate, and a passenger data debate. It is dealt with some of the questions in 1) and 2) but one extremely important that this goes ahead so that the part of the second question is relating to the role of security communities can talk to each other and can the Quartet. I was particularly interested in your collaborate and can deliver. There is still a problem remark about the fact that you thought that many of understanding by the Israeli public and this is people—and please correct me if I misheard you—in something where you can help us on and we all have Israel who had thought that they had a pretty good to work on the Israeli media and on Israeli opinion Y relationship which was su cient for them, namely a makers to push them to understand better that the relationship with the United States, that in this change has happened, and it really has happened. century for a number of reasons it has started to change. I would be interested if you can elaborate on that because it does relate to, as it were, the interface Q220 Lord Lea of Crondall: That is very interesting, and the recognition that the EU has a role to play. We thank you very much. have had evidence from one or two Israelis along the Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: I would rather go on if I may on EU/ lines that many people in Israel do not really want a Israeli bilateral relations because this will shed a strong role for the EU because it cuts against the role little light— of the exclusive relationship between Israel and the Chairman: Would you mind if we just put two more United States. questions on the political role and then we will Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: Thank you very much. This is my certainly move on to EU/Israel relations. We second opportunity today to answer the same certainly would like to continue discussing them. question. I try to draw a distinction between the EU and Europe—Europe as a continent of citizens and Q221 Lord Crickhowell: Before I ask the question on states and the EU as a set of institutions, the Council, the paper I was struck by your view that the the EP and the Commission. I think that we have to structural relationship was wrong and you would like be very careful. I cannot speak about Israeli public it to be more organisational and technical and less opinion even though I follow quite closely political, yet one of the criticisms which has been developments there, but I am very well aware that made is that basically the EU has concentrated on (and this is not what I was speaking about) EU/Israeli giving money and support and supervising elections bilateral relations are coming so maybe Israeli but has not played a major political role and that it bilateral relations will be part of the answer because should be able to play a more important political it is one thing to have the hidden (or non-hidden fear) role. The Middle East situation is nothing if not from the people like Solana, Ferrero-Waldner, political. How can Europe really play a significant ¨ Borrell or Pottering and the symbols of the role if it is not political? institutions participating politically in MEPP and Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: I might be challenging that. If it is another thing to have the broader Israeli public, political in the way I see then it is okay. Otherwise commercial, technological, cultural and educational V being a Middle East expert—and I graduated from interests in Europe, and these are two di erent poles. Cairo University and I spent part of my life there—I Concerning the first one I think it goes hand in hand really would rather see less politics and more with what I said previously about my description of eVectiveness based on real knowledge of the region Mr Solana’s work and let us say the political and better-tailored politics. symbolism of the old-fashioned Socialist approach to the Mediterranean and Israel. This is of course where the Israeli public still perceive Europe as doing this Q222 Lord Crickhowell: I was going to ask if Europe kind of job and it is not very keen on the further had a balanced role and can it play the role of an involvement of Europe, but if you talk to security honest broker but you have already suggested that it experts, if you talk even to people from Israeli NSC has not got balance, so should the EU take a stronger they are well aware of the need to collaborate and stance on some issues and, if so, what should they be? they want to collaborate with Europe. As an What would you like them to do? 3676421007 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:19:51 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG7

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22 March 2007 Dr Jana Hyba´sˇkova´

Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: What I would like Europe to do is— to talk with you, so we will pay you more than half in a way, you are right and again this would be a billion euros,” and I disagree. I disagree as well as answered in EU/Israel because this is a specific the head of the Israeli delegation because if there is example where we can see how technical things can be a key player now in the whole process it is Egypt and how structured they can be. Speaking about the and Egypt simply does not want anything related to broader MEPP (and that means the Arab/Israeli Hamas to come because of obvious Muslim conflict) and here I know that I step on a very hot— brotherhood relationships. According to all the Lord Lea of Crondall: Potato? information, I have Mr Solana is not playing his Lord Crickhowell: Coal? role in one way, he is playing a very dubious role, and Egypt is playing a very dubious role in what is called the Palestinian game, and this is really not Q223 Chairman: Sensitive topic? what we should support. That is point one. Point Dr Hyba´ˇskova´:—And this is a complicated construct two: promising the Golan Heights to Mr Bashar al- but we from new Europe have the experience that Assad is something which I cannot even comment viable and sustainable peace can be reached only on. Please, if you see Solana’s people tomorrow give when it is supported by democratic decisions. Only them our best regards from the European democratic states are able to come to having Parliament but we really were astonished. We peaceful relations with their neighbours. This is my organised here two months ago a public hearing on reading of the situation. You can have an autocratic Syria, having gathered more than 100 people from regime which for certain reasons decides to have all around on this particular issue. Syria is a very peaceful relations for 20 years with some entity important piece of the cake, and we have to talk to because it gives certain advantage but genuine the Syrians, we have to engage the Syrians, but in peaceful cohabitation and co-existence should be a very intelligent way. This is what I want to say: based on democratic support and capacities of the way Solana engages Syria is only political and populations. Therefore even though it is not political in a way which is not based on any fashionable nowadays—and I went through Iraq analytical thinking in my opinion. The same goes and I was in Basra and I think I have evidence to for Saudi Arabia now because Saudi Arabia due to say what I say—I still think that democratisation is the fact we have put Egypt on a shelf is becoming a prerequisite of sustainable, peaceful stability in the a very important player in the game and Europe is Middle East. Because we have—and I share the absolutely unable to do anything with Saudi Arabia responsibility—mis-managed the situation in Iraq it in its role. I would even criticise the working and does not allow us to say that it is better to have an technical structure because I know that the EU autocratic 10 or 15-year settlement rather than mission in Riyadh only has four diplomats currently going for democratisation because we cannot handle and in Nairobi we have about 100 staV members in democratisation right now and therefore let us the EU embassy and the EU mission. In Riyadh we forget about it. What we would achieve is have only four diplomats as the European Union, Mubarak’s Egypt which would live in peaceful co- which is crazy. There is a set-up of diVerent things existence with Israel, and call it peace for the next which we can have in the region instead of flying in 10 or 15 years. Maybe it is better than going for the and making political visits and having photo democratisation of Egypt right now because this opportunities with the leaders. I call for reality could really create a mess in the region, but I do not based on real assessment. Sorry! think that this is a matter of democratisation; this is more a matter of our inability to really support democratisation. This is really the question for me. Q224 Lord Tomlinson: Before I ask the question I So I think that where Europe can play a much better was going to you, can I pick up one question; you role is in first of all supporting educational systems, mentioned the round table on Syria. If you have striving for presence in public space in Syria, produced a report on that round table, it might be Lebanon and Egypt, going much more clearly to very helpful if your secretariat could let ours have a media space and teaching democracy and copy of it. The last question on the broad political encouraging a slow democratisation process based role—and I understand your impatience to get onto on education of the civil population than on military EU/Israel relations- you have emphasised the activity. This is where I think we should play a much Quartet conditions for recognition and as a more vivid and clear role, and we do not do it. I consequence of this there is the continuation of disagree with the fact that two weeks ago we bypassing the Palestinian Unity Government and disbursed ƒ628 million to Egypt as support for an using the Temporary International Mechanism. Do action plan with Egypt because if you look at you think that that will further weaken the democratisation, human rights and soft security Palestinian administration? Are we possibly moving issues, it does not support European interests, so it towards a failed state situation in Palestine and, if so, was a gesture: “We need stability with you, we need what should we be doing to reverse that situation? 3676421007 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:19:51 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG7

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22 March 2007 Dr Jana Hyba´sˇkova´

Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: Yesterday we had a hearing with Palestine. I am very much afraid about how we can representatives of the World Bank on how exactly the deal with this situation because we do not have the financial structure is shaped in Palestine and it was capacity building. We can talk about nation-building formidable because they have a kind of a structure in Afghanistan, we can talk about nation-building in which according to political need shifts finance from Somalia, but we do not know how to do it. This is one the ministry of finance to the presidential oYce and of the things where if you had the research capacity back to the ministry of finance and back to the and made the eVort to think about how to deal with presidential oYce. This is what you call bypassing failed Islamic entities where no-one wants to create because sometimes it goes to Mohammed Abbas’s the state and what our role in these extremely oYce and now it will go to Salam Fayyad’s oYce but unfamiliar situations is, it would be really beneficial the rest has not changed. to all of us. This is where I see a role where we can support education or health care but it is not a structuralistic approach; what we do is crisis Q225 Lord Tomlinson: But it is actually bypassing management, it is not a nation-building process, and the Palestinian Unity Government as such? this is the problem. Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: My reading is that all that we have Chairman: Can we move on to EU/Israel relations with Palestine is a PLO agreement and what we need, and I am going to ask Lord Chidgey to come in. due to the particularity of the Oslo Process, is to strengthen the structure which is signed under our treaties, which is with the PLO. This is where I think Q226 Lord Chidgey: You have already given us Europe does not play any important role and a some marvellous insights into the way the EU could couple of us knowing the situation have tried to talk be addressing this. to Fatah people to ask them to give one more seat to Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: Very much my own views. Hamas. Hamas has the full right to be the leader in the PLO. It is not true that Hamas does not want to Q227 Lord Chidgey: Of course, that is understood go to the steering committee or to the central and taken as read. I do not know where to start really committee of the PLO, they want to, but they want but I want to pick up firstly in a formal way and ask one more seat than they have been given and this is you a little more about your views on the EU’s short- where the situation is complicated. So I think we termism and over-political role because we want you should be more strict with them and say, “Guys, the to summarise your view on how one would old days are over and you have to open up the PLO characterise the EU’s dialogue and relations with to Hamas representation or better representation of Israel concerning the Middle East peace process. You the political parties of justice and reform.” Once this have already mentioned that you feel there is a lack is done then we can have this being bound by the of balance but do you expect the European agreements with the PLO and we can maybe get Neighbourhood policy to provide a basis for the EU somewhere on stage two of the Roadmap, if this is the to engage more intensively with Israel on the MEPP? reading. So I do not think we are bypassing it because I will ask a supplementary after that, if I may. we are not obliged to support this entity. We support Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: Not directly but indirectly. This is them on clear humanitarian need but the way it is something that I have tried to do from the very said that we have to and we did something where we beginning when I came here. Direct political talks are are not fulfilling our duties, I strongly disagree here. I cannot say 100% blocked but they are blocked and Speaking about the TIM and about administration dealings between Madame Waldner and Madame and about a failed state, failed states is a Livni—it is not really a successful story. It is also due phenomenon in the Middle East which I am very to the situation in Israel and due to Olmert and much afraid we have to learn how to deal with. We Livni—and I am not blaming one side or the other Europeans are very progressive in our thinking and side—and given previous set-ups between Israel and for centuries we have seen history as development the EU, I think that it was quite a good thing to and therefore destructuring of states is something concentrate on the action plan because the action that is a totally grey area for us in our thinking. The plan is a cookbook from A to Z, but you can pick up Arab identity is gone and what we have is an Islamic the moments when you really can go on and the identity and with Islamic identity we are really Israeli decision to go to internal markets and the coming to the fact that law is only what allows Israeli decision to slowly but surely go for Muslims to be good Muslims. That is out of this harmonisation with acquis simply bring Israel closer frame and it is irrelevant. It is not hostile but it is to Europe. This is an enormously positive thing irrelevant. In a way, an independent state which is which can happen and happens with no politicians not a state of caliphate is simply irrelevant to the mentioning it really, so it is good that they do not concept that law is what allows ummah to live like mention it! For instance, the Israeli interest in having ummah. I think we have the same sort of situation in the same public procurement system as Europe, the Lebanon, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Somalia and in fact that Israel wants more co-operation now in 3676421007 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:19:51 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG7

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22 March 2007 Dr Jana Hyba´sˇkova´ climate change, the environment and IT, and an Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: To be very candid here, I supported Israeli presence in the Seventh Framework strongly the Iraqi operation and I did it not because Programme, as well as a presence in the security of WMDs, even though I said that no-one could priorities of the Seventh Framework Programme, seriously exclude them the day before operations which is an extremely important thing. These things started, but because of my belief in the necessity for can be done and are done. Israel made a mistake only the democratisation of Iraq. I participated in what recently at the last EU Association Council because was called the Nasiriyah Conference and Baghdad they wanted to set up a reflection group on how far Conference, which was the first gathering of Iraqis. they can go politically in relations with Europe and There used to be an Iraqi National Council and this was not wise because they are better going from there should have been a conference of the Iraqi DG to DG and doing specific steps here and here and National Council and for certain reasons it did not here and here, not preparing for full convergence go as we thought and then the first pan-Iraqi with Europe but preparing their stock exchange for conference happened in Nasiriyah in March/April dealing with Europe. All these things can be done and 2003. All Iraqis gathered there and more than half there is enormous pressure from the Israeli business of them were obviously of religious origin and the community on these matters and this is very, very, Westerners, including your people, our people and very useful thing and we have to use this pressure. US people when they saw that half of them were There is enormous pressure from Israeli academics to imams or mosque guys they got scared and this is have better relations with Europe because they all where the diYculties started. I am not sure but my complain that the educational system is falling down feeling now is inclining to come to the point that for to the European level. I am sorry to say that! With so many years we did not act in the public space. due respect to your country, it was more speaking The only public space we have kept in the Middle about our systems in central Europe rather than your East is that which is occupied by mosques and the educational system! They are interested in all kinds of only natural leaders will be imams because for 20 IT collaboration and co-operation, so I see a lot of years they were the only ones who had the ability fields where we can enhance and advance relations to command. and the opportunity is here. The only block which I fear is that the EU now because of this preamble with Turkey is extremely sensitive to any enhancing of Q229 Lord Chidgey: That brings me to my final institutional co-operation and collaboration with question. anyone and therefore all the DGs which are being Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: I think that for a certain intermediate approached by the Israelis are saying, “Wait a period we have two possibilities, either to keep moment, then the Turks and the Ukrainians and the autocratic regimes and work on their internal Moroccans will come to us and we do not want them restructuring or to go through a certain way of to come.” I am involved in how to find a way where opening up and bringing in Islamists and I am not Israelis can get past this mental block of “My God, sure myself which of these two ways is better and I we are not having Morocco and the Ukraine in the do not think that anyone can give you the answer same boat,” and this is the problem. these days.

Q228 Lord Chidgey: This comes back to a point that Q230 Lord Chidgey: Do you believe that you can you very interestingly made about democracy and foster Palestinian democracy in the absence of a the need for democracy before you can have peace in state? stable societies. Israel will say, “We are the only Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: Yes I do because we still cannot have democracy in the region.” You make a very a state because of one obvious reason: even if we interesting comparison with Turkey which of course speak about the borders of 1967 this is a very bad is a secular Muslim democracy. You also made a very message to the Palestinians because this will mean interesting analysis of the problem with democracy having the West Bank and Gaza split. Europe is not under an Islamist political regime, and that brings us very wise in sending this message because this means back to North Africa and Algeria where they voted in that we would keep these two entities split. When favour of the Islamic Party which said the first thing we speak about a viable state we need to change the we are going to do is abolish elections. Interesting! situation there. Therefore I think to get to a state it Can I just say this: must we accept that whilst is a really long, long way and we have such democracy is per se the great goal to strive for in institutions like Panorama—this is one of the peace and stability in the world it is not relevant in the democratic groupings in Palestine for instance— short to medium term in trying to achieve a peace where I think we have to support them and work settlement in the Middle East, particularly between with them and try to enhance them as much as Israel and Palestine? we can. 3676421007 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:19:51 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG7

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22 March 2007 Dr Jana Hyba´sˇkova´

Q231 Lord Tomlinson: If I can just ask you a maybe some old Members who have never needed question—and I do apologise because I am going to to learn about the process of harmonisation, but have to leave a little bit before the meeting finishes— since I went through the harmonisation of acquis in in the process of EU relations with Israel what my own country I know it better. So I can at least influence has been exerted by the EU to encourage talk about sanitary and veterinary staV and about Israel to respect the commitments that it has under accumulation of origin and free trade and these the Association Agreements? There I am thinking things better than some others do here. So they do particularly human rights, co-operation with the the political work and we as a delegation get Palestinians and rules of origin. What prospects, if involved as well in the issue of kidnapped Israeli any, do you think exist for progress on the EU human soldiers which is not that easy. We have signed and rights dialogue, and perhaps in that context you sent a letter to Haniya asking him to provide us with might also just touch on your EPP delegation with information about the well-being of Gilad Shalit. I the Israeli Knesset and how you believe the pressures see the core issue not in the wall because I think the you might bring there contribute to the peace process defence of a wall according to diVerent geographical in the region. areas might be psychologically diYcult for both Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: I will start answering the third point sides. I think security wise it works but where I see of the first part of your question which is the rules the core of the problem are settlements. This is the of origin. I think that there was quite substantive core of the issue and when we speak about the 1967 work done by the Commission. Mr Alan Seater borders, it is more or less acceptable, and I do not really has done marvellous work in this respect speak about settlements in the top hills in outposts trying to bring the EU/Israel/Palestine triangle part in the West Bank; I speak about the Ramallah and of the national action plans together and to work in Rasen and this is where I see the real core issues this direction. This is exactly where I see the related to water, related to transportation, related Commission being very helpful and useful and I to demography and this is where we must have some think that progress was made there. Concerning system for telling the Israelis that this is insecure for human rights and the other commitments of Israel, their own future and this is where they will get into human rights is an issue which is very, very largely trouble trying to get security for their settlements. and deeply held by the European Parliament. There are many groups and many personalities who have Q232 Lord Lea of Crondall: Has anybody suggested a lot of contacts to Israelis and Palestinians and all a joint Israel/Palestinian commission on some of these Geneva groupings. There is not a week in this these questions? house without hearing us about this particular issue, Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: We met once as the Palestinian and the rights of Palestinian citizens or Arab citizens of Israeli Commission together. This was a great Palestinian origin in Israel. As chair of the success. It was the first time in the history of this delegation I try to be as professional as I can and house that these two delegations met. balance it but on the one hand we have Marco Pannella and Pierre Schapira and on the other we have Marine le Pen and we have the Poles and we Q233 Lord Lea of Crondall: No, I mean the Israelis have people from all around and to accommodate and the Palestinians. Has this got to wait for the all their interests is not always very easy. success of the Middle East peace propose or could Nevertheless we have a visit by four or five members it not be a building block for us to build on some of the Knesset at the end of April to Strasbourg and joint work between the Israelis and Palestinians on I think it was the request of Madame Mastenbroek, some of these civic questions more than we do? and she is not particularly for opening the issue of Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: This is just my ad hoc assumption. the rights of Arab Israeli citizens, so we will have With the Kadima Party there was a certain period quite some time debating this issue. Certainly when of time when I think they were ready to go and talk we visited Israel we met a lot of NGOs and we went to the Palestinians on working groups. I think they to East Jerusalem and we even had some press were keen to do it but then with all that followed conferences around these issues, so we tried to and their quite naive assumptions on what will influence. We met the minister for Palestinian happen one day with withdrawal from Gaza, and prisoners when we were with Borrell in Gaza and then what happened in Gaza and all these things, we engaged in some debates there. So I think that they now have a block and Israelis are more and more members of my delegation are experts on more blocked and not be able to talk to the human rights rather than being technical experts on Palestinians, and again I think that it is very much harmonisation of the acquis and the internal our role to try to tell them that even though it is mechanisms. I know these things because I was part extremely diYcult and complicated they have to talk of the Czech negotiating team so, funnily enough, to the Palestinians, and we try to tell them as much we know the technicalities of the EU better than as we can. 3676421007 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:19:51 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG7

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22 March 2007 Dr Jana Hyba´sˇkova´

Q234 Chairman: We asked to have a chance to talk FCO people, for example at the very beginning in the to you for an hour. You have very generously given year 1990 when we knew nothing. I became Director your hour but before we go, is there anything which of the Middle East Department when I was 26 years we should have asked you and we have not asked you old and there were a number of diplomats who really that you would like to say to us in closing? There is helped us tremendously in those days before anyone no obligation, you have told us so much, but is there else came to us. I think that your people and the US anything that we have left out? If you think of people were amongst the first if not the very first who something afterwards and you perhaps send a written helped us to structure things in the very beginning in note to us, we would be very glad to incorporate it 1991-1992. You helped us tremendously and guided with our evidence. Could I on behalf of our us through many things. Czech co-operation with Committee say that we have never had a witness you in Yugoslavia was something all our nation is before us previously who has not had sight of the well aware of and for me recently collaboration with questions before we started asking them and I do not the European Ambassador and your people in think many of us have met many of the members of Kuwait was an extraordinary help—extraordinary help—because we had to collaborate with Central this Parliament who come from the new Member Command, which for us tiny Czechs was an States, and I think we would all of us want to say that extremely daunting experience, and without your we are extraordinarily impressed by the way in which people, be it military or be it FCO, it would have been you have been able to help us today in thinking Y Y an enormously di cult situation for me to go through what are some very di cult questions, and I through. Then when we were deciding how to think we appreciate the quality of the analysis which approach Iraq, we decided on very clear analysis that you have brought, and I am sure that the Parliament it would be better for us to be posted to the UK sector needs to have people with your skills. I hope they are than the US sector simply because of the all like you! Thank you again very much and we hope communication and collaboration. I have had the we may have a chance perhaps to see you some time opportunity to work with your people in Basra and in London. If you were ever in London we would be to see the enormous heroism of your young people in very pleased to have a chance to see you there as well. the medical service for instance—girls of 20 or 21 Dr Hyba´ˇskova´: Thank you very much. I would like to serving there—so I really appreciate the work of your make some small point. At diVerent times in my life I nation in the region. Thank you. have had the extraordinary chance to work with your Chairman: Thank you very much. 3676421008 Page Type [SO] 18-07-07 04:20:15 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG8

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FRIDAY 23 MARCH 2007

Present Chidgey, L Lea of Crondall, L Crickhowell, L Roper, L (Chairman) Hamilton of Epsom, L Symons of Vernham Dean, B Hannay of Chiswick, L Tomlinson, L

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Mr Robert Cooper, Director-General, and Mr Christian Jouret, Head of Middle East Task Force, Council Secretariat, examined.

Q235 Chairman: Perhaps we could begin formally. Mr Jouret: First of all, I am sorry but my English is Could I say how grateful we are to both of you, Mr not very good at all so just a few words in English. Of Cooper, and Mr Jouret, for having received us this course I agree completely with what Robert has said. morning. As I think you know, the Committee is It has been a consistent line since the Venice carrying out an inquiry into the European Union and Declaration and that is why today we are repeating the Middle East. We have taken quite a lot of that we stick to the vision of President Bush, but it evidence in London from people from diVerent was our vision three decades ago, and more so in the backgrounds. We were here yesterday and saw last 15 years ago. About the current approach of the people both in the Commission and in the Parliament EU vis-a`-vis the Middle East peace process, I do not and we are here in the Council this morning. I think know if we can speak today about a peace process but you have seen some of the issues which we would like at least there is an evolution, there is a development to raise with you and I would like to start, if I might, and there is a new Government in the Palestinian and ask you what is your assessment of the European Territories. I think that we are more pragmatic than Union’s policy on the Middle East peace process before and when I say pragmatic I mean we have really from the 1990s and how would you describe the progressed towards a certain recognition of this current approach of the Union? Government, or at least we believe in the process. We Mr Cooper: Personally I go back to the 1980s with the still do not know if we are going to recognise fully this Venice Declaration and it seems to me that one of the Government but we believe in the process, and this is merits of the EU’s approach is that it has been something essential and this is the diVerence to what consistent, starting with essentially its belief that the we thought last year, so nothing has been decided so solution lies in a two-state solution, and that dates far but we believe in the process. We strongly believe back to the Venice Declaration. I think the Venice that Hamas is not going to disappear oV the Declaration did not specifically mention states but it Palestinian landscape overnight so we need a referred to self-determination and the implication of transformation. In a way we need a sort of that was clear. Although policy-making in the “corruption”—if I can use that word in English— European Union can be a bit laborious it has the through the political progress. Hamas has to adapt merit that when you have made the policy you tend itself to the political process. to stick to it for quite a long time, and that has been Mr Cooper: Perhaps I could just say one word that I the case here. Essentially the policy is encapsulated in should have said at the beginning and that is to say the phrase “two-state solution”. We support people the other thing to underline is the extreme interest in who will work for two states and that is reflected in this and the very high political priority that has been the so-called Quartet principles, with recognition of attached to the Middle East for all the time I can Israel being a vital element in all of this. It is reflected remember, beginning with the Venice Declaration. If also in some of the things that we try to do on the one looks at the number of ministerial hours devoted ground in the Middle East, with more or less success to discussion of this subject, it probably exceeds I depending on the circumstances. A large part of the should have thought anything else over time, Commission’s spending is aimed at capacity although that does not necessarily bring results. building, specifically the kind of capacities you need to run a state, and they will have told you more about that. We ourselves in the Council have tried to do Q236 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Could I just take up some of this on the security side as well and you could two points there. One, I was very interested by what also say that the assistance with the crossing point at you said about Venice because I start there too, as Rafa is another part of the picture. States have you do, but it has another characteristic of Venice boundaries and they have borders and they have to which is it is one of the very few occasions on which have entry points, so that has been the approach the European Community took a position that was in consistently over the years. Christian might like to advance of the US administration and the US add something. administration subsequently has invented it as their 3676421008 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:15 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG8

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23 March 2007 Mr Robert Cooper and Mr Christian Jouret position. That seems to me to have some considerable Like many of these things the Quartet’s birth was relevance for the situation we are in now. The second partly accidental and it has carried on that way but, point is that all the time in our inquiry it seems to me yes, I think this is now the principal forum for the we come up against one word in the conditions that international community in some senses expressing are applied to dealing with the Palestinian Authority itself. Perhaps I could just make one comment on Government which gets continually misused and Lord Hannay’s earlier remark about the Venice misunderstood and that is the word “recognition”, Declaration being in advance of the US position and because in the technical, diplomatic sense recognition the US finally having caught up. That sort of thing is something that states do of other states, but the still happens today but it happens in a rather less Palestinian Authority is not a state and it therefore visible way. One sees it for example some of the neither has to be recognised nor does it recognise. language that the Quartet has used regarding the so- And at the same time in the sense we are talking called Quartet principles. You will find that the EU about, the European Union and its Member States has used language instead of talking about recognise states not governments. So it seems to me conditionality we have talked about “reflecting” the that that is an element of massive confusion. Is there Quartet principles, which has become a little bit more any way in which this can be sorted out a little bit or subtle, and that has eventually been adopted by the presented a little bit less crudely than it is at the Quartet. There are still, as always within any group moment? like this, divergences and we pull each other in Mr Cooper: I think you are right that this is an area diVerent directions, but that involves the European of great ambiguity and I think it is a mistake that this Union sometimes pulling the USA into a position word has been used because I do not think that we are that we would consider to be more flexible and talking about recognition in the formal diplomatic more realistic. sense. I am sure even the Israelis understand that that is what will come at the end of the process, not at the beginning of it. What we are talking about is people Q238 Lord Lea of Crondall: I think one of the accepting that there is going to be a state called Israel. inferences drawn from your exchange there with You can argue that this is already implicit in the Lord Hannay is that the EU can in principle Government platform at the moment. somehow be in advance of the United States but this Chairman: Perhaps I could ask Lord Hannay if he is often presented as “what happens if the EU would like to continue. disagrees with the United States?” The architecture of the Quartet has the United States and the EU in some senses equal partners but it is widely put to us Q237 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: The Quartet and its that the special relationship between Israel and the operations of course is not a masterpiece of United States means that there is an asymmetry both transparency so outsiders like ourselves and other in terms of perceived attitudes toward Palestine and parliaments and so on do not get a strong feel for how Israel but also, more important almost, the EU is not the European Union operates in the political process. a state, it does not have a military capability, et Has it been a successful, serious dialogue with the cetera, and therefore how can we be equal, other three partners and, if not, is that because they symmetrical partners in the Quartet? Could you have not been prepared to shift their position or listen comment on that? to what the European Union has to say or is this Mr Cooper: That is a question that goes beyond this. something that is improving now and can we have No, we are not equal partners with the United States. confidence in the solidity of the Quartet as the basic Nobody is equal to the United States at the moment. method by which we get into a peace process? Mr Jouret: The United Nations is not a state either. Mr Cooper: I think my answer to the last question Mr Cooper: I would only say that we come closer to would be yes, with a bit of hesitation because things being equal to the United States when we manage to are not foreseeable. It is partly my experience in the get our act together and work together in Europe Balkans that has led me to believe that it is extremely than we do if individual Member States do it. diYcult to get two parties to a quarrel to solve it on Mr Jouret: The Quartet has a cousin now, the Arab their own and you need to bring together as much as Quartet, and now we have to find a way to make them you can in the way of international pressure and play together, and this is our objective. It is unlikely support. You could say that what is missing from the that a meeting of the two Quartets will take place in Quartet are the neighbours. In some respects the UN the near future but this is one of our requests; we has been a kind of place-holder for the neighbours in want to deal with Arab partners, and they are more the Quartet, but at the next meeting of the Quartet organised today than they were in the past. The planned in Cairo there will be a meeting with some of second thing on the Quartet, as Robert said, we are the important neighbours as well. I think that solving not equal partners within the Quartet. I must say I these long-standing problems requires the biggest was there when the Quartet was created in 2002. My international coalition that you can put together. personal feeling, because there is no birth certificate 3676421008 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:15 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG8

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23 March 2007 Mr Robert Cooper and Mr Christian Jouret of the Quartet—it was endorsed by Kofi Annan involved? We are not so easy to see. The US is very 2002—is that the Quartet was borne out of 9/11, it is big and very visible and it has one President and one a direct product of 9/11. I have a little story but I do flag. The European Union has a large number of not know if this is the place to tell you that story. At Member States who really do operate in convoy in that point I participated many times in Quartet some way on this, but it makes much less impact meetings and I find a huge diVerence between the first clearly. I think there has been a change with the meetings of the Quartet and now. During the first creation of the post of High Representative where meetings of the Quartet—I mean 2002, 2003 and there is at least one permanent, visible figure who is 2004—there was always a sort of permanent extremely well-known in the Middle East, certainly in disagreement between the Europeans and the political circles, and I guess to a certain extent on the Americans within the Quartet. The Russians at that street, but he cannot match the clarity of power that time were a completely silent partner and the United the US President and Secretary of State have. Nations was always trying to find a common position Mr Jouret: One thing about the EU being in advance to build a bridge between the European position and in comparison with the Americans, I think we must the American position. Today this is no longer the recall that we have put on the table three main ideas situation. We are with the Americans, we are closer in advance of anybody else. First, self-determination than we used to be in the past, we have more common for the Palestinians, that was Venice; then the state; positions and it is easier to work. The transatlantic and then something probably more important, a relationship is better today within the Quartet than it viable state. We have invented that and we have put used to be in the past. in the adjective “viable” and it is essential. Having a state means nothing if the state is not a viable or Q239 Lord Chidgey: I just want to pick up a point independent or even sovereign state, and this is very that you made, Robert, in answer to Lord Hannay important, and everything today turns around these how quite often it is the case that the EU is ahead of three principles. I was thinking when you said there the US in its thinking and the US is eventually in due is no solution without the Americans, that is for sure, course brought on board. I think I have put it rather this is our idea today and it is a deeply-rooted idea, crudely but basically I mean leading the intellectual but there is no solution without the Europeans as process in a way. I just wanted to comment because well. Europe is very much appreciated in Arab in the course of our inquiry we have taken evidence countries. There is always disappointment and every from a lot of witnesses—experts, academics, day we have leaders but also people in the street too diplomats—and the message we keep getting, which telling us, “Please do better, try to take more obviously needs to be challenged, is that in their eyes decisions because we believe in you, we are almost the only game in town is the US when it comes neighbours close to each other”, you know, that kind to controlling the aspirations and development of of language. relations with Israel within the peace process and it is Mr Cooper: Perhaps in this context it is worth only when we come to Brussels that we see another remarking that the platform of the Palestinian side of the coin, which is actually quite gratifying and Government refers in two or three places to the encouraging. My question is: why is it that we do not European Union. I do not know whether that is a have in the Maghreb or on the Arab street or on any good thing or a bad thing. other street an understanding of the importance of Mr Jouret: The kiss of death! the role that the EU is playing, because let us face it, Mr Cooper: And it may well have been that they were you have to influence the populations of these regions doing this to get at the USA, but at any rate there is to get to the solution, not just diplomacy behind some element of recognition of European closed doors, so where is it disconnecting? involvement there. Mr Cooper: I not sure I am well able to answer that. Maybe Christian will have something to say. Just to Q241 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Going back to not continue what I am saying, the Quartet is a being equal with the United States, the United States machinery for mutual influence. Somewhere over the is the only superpower and that is self-evident, but last period the European Union concluded, perhaps surely there is a diVerence between what the Quartet after the period that Christian described, that there is and what the Quartet does, and there is a desperate was no solution without the USA, and that is need here, I would have thought, for an honest certainly right— broker, which slightly rules out the United States because I think we have got to talk more than just Q240 Lord Chidgey: That is completely right. about the Palestinians and Israelis; we have got to Mr Cooper: And there is no solution without Israel talk about the Arab world. Recent actions of the and actually over this period EU relations with Israel United States have actually made it quite diYcult for have improved quite markedly as well. Why is there them in the rest of the Arab world. 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US is, and should we not be playing a bigger role in Mr Jouret: This idea of having a meeting between the all of that? Just adding on to that, one of the two Quartets is probably one of our ideas. Javier ambassadors we were talking to said that the EU has Solana mentioned severaltimes during his lasttriplast now assumed the role of the cheque book. I am week in the region (and he will tell you that probably certainly getting the rather strong impression that we later on) the idea of including not only the Americans immediately ladle out enormous funds to but including the Saudis. I believe today that it is Palestinians and people and we do not get an awful probably a bit early to have a meeting of the two lot of influence in return for the money that we are Quartets for maybe two reasons. First, the Arab paying out. Quartetis moreofalabelforthe moment,ithas noreal Mr Cooper: On the last question, to be honest, I am a activity, they do not really meet. The Saudis, bit sceptical generally about whether money buys you Egyptians, Jordanians and Emirates of course have influence anyway and I have been very struck by the contact behind this Arab Quartet with more Arab diVerence in impact it made when (I do not know if the countries but those Arab countries do not want to term EU COPPS is familiar to the Committee) EU appear publicly. They are ready to finance several COPPS began. By the way, perhaps because it is a things like Kuwait for example, but they do not want House of Lords Committee I might underline that this to be an oYcial part of the Arab Quartet so they are was, I thought, a very imaginative initiative by the not well-prepared for the moment, but something is British Government which launched this as a British moving in the Arab world and we have to use that new initiative and paid for it to begin with but in a tool. Yes, to answer your question, we would like to European framework, and then it formed a kind of have a meeting. First we requested a meeting in Egypt, centre of gravity around which various other that wasour idea,and, secondly,we wouldlike tohave Europeans were able to join in. I think it is a very a meeting with the Arab Quartet, and that will successful example and one that we would like to see probably come later. repeated in other places because it enabled the thing to happen quickly and rather eYciently and it was done Q244 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I am sorry, in a way that enabled others to join in and produce I am not quite sure whether you are saying you want it quite a lot of value-added. What I wanted to say was I Quartet toQuartetoryouwantitEU toArabQuartet. was quite struck by the impact it made when initially it Mr Jouret: No, Quartet to Quartet. was only a dozen people or so who began being active onthegroundasopposedsimplyto givingmoney.The Q245 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Right. money just disappears and nobody notices it— Where is the Arab League in that? sometimesatany rate.As forthe questionofan honest Mr Jouret: The Arab League is not involved in that. broker, I think in a way the Quartet represents a team of brokers. The UN has always been present as a broker in some way. The United States are clearly the Q246 Lord Lea of Crondall: On the Quartet one people who have the confidence of Israel, insofar as cannot help thinking about the metaphor of a musical anybody has the confidence of Israel. On the quartet where one has a first violin, a second violin, a European side, we have long-standing relationships viola and a cello and yet together they make up a both with Israel and with the Palestinians and with wonderful string quartet as in Beethoven or whatever. other Arab countries. It is for others to judge how Shouldwethinkofthisas noteverybody agreeingwith deeply we are trusted on both sides, but now we see a each other but playing complementary instruments? further broker appearing in Mecca, which is to be In the Arab Quartet there are Shia, Sunni and all the welcomed because I do not think that the problem is rest of it. How would you characterise the nature of going to be solved just by one set or by one mediator. these Quartets in that sense? That is why on the whole I think the Quartet is a good Mr Cooper: It is true without going too far into the idea and if it is linked to the Arabs so much the better. metaphor that in the Quartet they are often playing slightly diVerent tunes at the same time. Mr Jouret: Like in Europe! Q242 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: On that Mr Cooper: First of all, one should not take that last point actually, you said a moment or two ago that metaphor too far. As Christian said, for the Arab at the next meeting in Cairo there was going to be a Quartet it is not clear that there is a real existence in meeting with the Arab Quartet. Is that something that the way that there is in the Quartet proper but the real the EU is pressing for or that the whole of the original point is that there are some very important players on Quartet is pressing for, ie are the Americans the Arab side, notably Egypt and Saudi Arabia and enthusiastic about linking up in this way? of course Jordan, who is the immediate neighbour Mr Jouret: Enthusiastic is not the word! and is automatically concerned by whatever happens, but the Saudis in particular have played a very Q243 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: No, I did important role recently. I do think that involving the not think it would be. neighbours and the regional parties is the thing that 3676421008 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:15 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG8

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23 March 2007 Mr Robert Cooper and Mr Christian Jouret has been missing from the Quartet, so finding some disagree and which will not be very palatable to you, stronger linkage to the Arabs, who must be a part of because otherwise we will have no viability with the the solution. There is the Saudi Beirut initiative for Israeli side, and in any case that is the way peace deals example and that also is one element of the solution, are cut?” “Yes, we do understand that and we still so I think that it is very good that they are involved want the EU to be a party.” Could you comment on and have become closer. how if this famous phrase “political horizons” is to assume a somewhat more concrete shape the EU Q247 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Can I ask might start to identify elements of the final status one question on that, who are their point people? Are negotiations? Is it ready to step on to that territory? they using their ministers or are they using people like Mr Cooper: I think the answer to the second question Mark Arch, who I think is absolutely fantastic at is yes. The question is whether the parties are ready to what he does? Are they doing it government-to- do that. At the moment this is a question which Javier government and are they doing it through those sorts himself will be much better equipped to answer, but of people? my feeling is the moment that conditions on the Mr Jouret: You mean the Arab Quartet? ground are ready we have a pretty clear idea about where the settlement will be, as I think many people Q248 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Yes, the do actually. But, yes, we would be ready to move on Arabs? to final status. Mr Jouret: I do not know if they meet as our Quartet Mr Jouret: Just one thing which is obvious for meet. Usually it is at the level of foreign ministers but everyone: everything is on the table and we know it is not a regular structure. what the end game is and what will be the final status for the Palestinian Territories. With the Clinton Q249 Chairman: How far do you feel the European parameters, with Camp David, with the Taba Union has a balanced approach with regards to the Agreement, everything is there and there is no need to diVerent parties to the conflict? Do you feel that the reinvent the wheel, we have everything. European Union should perhaps take a stronger stance on key issues? We have touched on this already Q252 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Could we just briefly but there might be something that you would want talk about Iraq because Baker-Hamilton said that to add. Syria and Iran should be involved and initially Mr Cooper: I would say, yes, almost by definition we President Bush ruled that out and said no they are have a balanced approach. That is what everybody pariah states. That is now changing and so the only always says about their approach. You find out format it seems to me where all these people might afterwards whether it was really true or not! It is a meet is on Iraq. Is the EU linking in with that? Are little bit in the nature of the European Union though they sitting at the same table, because unless we because we are 27 Member States, and diVerent actually talk to Iran and Syria we are going to get Member States have diVerent angles, that we are nowhere on this. They have got to be part of any more likely than anybody else in the world to have a settlement and agreement, have they not, of the balanced approach. It is quite unlikely to find the dispute between the Palestinians and the Israelis? European Union rushing widely oV in any direction. Mr Cooper: Syria clearly is a part of that. I am not so Maybe that is a fault. sure about Iran. I think we would see it as undesirable. Iran has not played a constructive role at Q250 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: If I could just pick all. In fact, Iran is about the only country in the up from that. In the evidence we have taken we had region that rejects a two-state solution. So clearly a rather interesting occasion in which we asked the they are a player but they are one that we would same question to the Egyptian ambassador in rather not have involved. London and then to the Syrian ambassador in London and the Syrian ambassador gave us an Q253 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Can I just come back absolutely classical reply that, “We want the EU to on that. If they go on supplying Hezbollah in the do more because we want them to be on our side.” Lebanon then they are going to be able to disrupt Down the decades it was the perfectly obvious answer anything, so can we rule them out? which to me seems to be a recipe for futility. Mr Cooper: No, they have a capacity to make trouble, Mr Cooper: Yes. that is absolutely right.

Q251 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: And the Egyptian Q254 Lord Tomlinson: If I could move on to the next ambassador replied to a question of, “Do you question; with the state of play and relations between understand that if the EU becomes more involved, the Quartet and the Palestinian Unity Government particularly in the final status issues, they are bound we are continuing to bypass the Government and to take a position with which you will sometimes channel aid through the Temporary International 3676421008 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:15 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG8

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Mechanism. Is there not a risk that this will further Mr Cooper: Certainly not intentionally, not weaken the Palestinian administration and are we in knowingly. I am tempted to say one answer to the danger of moving towards a failed state in Palestine question is we might have done that by encouraging and, if so, what if anything do you think the EU can elections and by monitoring them. do to reverse that trend? Mr Cooper: The Palestinian administration is indeed Q257 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Exactly. in extremely poor shape and, yes, there is a risk of a Mr Cooper: But I still think in spite of the messy way failed state before you get to a state. We broadly have that things have proceeded that elections were right, welcomed the formation of the Government for that some kind of political renewal was needed and is National Unity and, as Christian said earlier, we are needed in Fatah still, and the only way you get that not yet doing business with it as such but it itself is in is through elections and through a political process. a process and I think we are in a process as well which Elections were remarkably well conducted. I also is going to evolve over the next month also. I agree think that we need to take account of that fact in our with you that we need to ask the question about all of dealings with the National Unity Government. the things we do about delivery of aid, about whether this strengthens or weakens the prospect of a state, but at the same time we need not just a state but we Q258 Lord Crickhowell: That takes me to my second need a state which is committed to a two-state question on the next stage of the process. We had the solution, committed to non-violent means of elections and we may not have entirely liked the result pursuing that, and so we do not want to abandon the but there it is, we are living with it, and talking to the principles immediately. As usual in diplomacy there Commission yesterday we were presented with three is a balancing act going on. scenarios—full engagement, because the three principles have been accepted; selective engagement, which as I understood it meant talking to Fatah Q255 Lord Tomlinson: But in the way that you seem ministers but not Hamas ministers; and then if the to be suggesting that you are nuancing the Quartet actions are all too dangerous and diYcult no contact principles, do you think that is in any way increasing at all with the ministers. At the end of our meeting I the likelihood that the Temporary International said it does seem to be a pretty dangerous process. I Mechanism will no longer be needed as the main admit I come from something rather diVerent which mechanism for aid to the Palestinians? is a government that believed in collective Mr Cooper: The most desirable state would be to have administration but they have formed a government a Palestinian Authority that functioned well, that we and you are only talking to some ministers, you might were doing business with on a normal basis and we persuade Hamas that this is rather a good idea to could channel our aid through that, and that is where move on but you might have the opposite eVect we would like to be. Perhaps the other thing that is which is actually to create a friction. How do you see worth saying is that the role that we may play in the that developing? weakness of the Palestinian administration is a very Mr Cooper: Here perhaps I should say that I speak minor one. What creates the terrible conditions in the rather on a personal basis because these are questions West Bank and Gaza are the roadblocks and the which are new and are under discussion and we have failure of the Israelis to hand over the money that not yet had a discussion at the level of the Council they have collected in customs dues. Those are really since the formation of the National Unity the big things. We attempt to move those things Government. There will be a discussion at the forward from time to time without very much Gymnich meeting in about 10 days’ time and there success, but those are the things that are creating the will be some sorting out then. I think that the options possibility of a failed state there, and I think that are actually much greater than three because of V actually all people in the region, including Israel, who course you have di erent ways of doing business and V have an interest in order and peace in the region, there are di erent levels you can approach people on V ought to be alarmed at the prospect of chaos in the and people have di erent degrees of recognition that Territories. you can give. Personally, I think we should be a little bit careful about saying we are prepared to do business with one half of the Government and not the Q256 Lord Crickhowell: Moving on to the fifth other because we have, after all, been urging the question I really want to take it in two parts and we Palestinians to form a National Unity Government are onto process again. Have up to this point any of and, again personally, I think that is probably a the EU’s policies or activities had the eVect of condition of the peace settlement in the end. First, the increasing the divide, the factionalism and the Palestinians need to get their act together and then rivalries in Palestine between Fatah and Hamas? they need to negotiate with Israel. Our only Have we by our approach so far actually made reservation is that we need the Palestinians to get things worse? their act together in a way that enables a negotiation 3676421008 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:15 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG8

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23 March 2007 Mr Robert Cooper and Mr Christian Jouret with Israel rather than one which closes it oV, and Q261 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Going that is why we are in this delicate balancing act that back to the aid question, I am just interested about we are at the moment. Saudi aid going in. One of the great strengths of European aid was that it was going in and being monitored on the corruption point and that was what Q259 Lord Tomlinson: Can I just pursue with one was giving more confidence, and Salam Fayyad was small supplementary that question because it strikes genuinely trying to clean up the act, but how are the me from the discussion that we have had so far that Saudis giving their aid? while there is a willingness to speak and to channel Mr Cooper: I do not know. aid through some ministries, those that are led by Fatah ministers or independents, that those that are Q262 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: This is a led by Fatah ministers are led by ministers from a really important question because this goes back to party that is perceived as being corrupt and that we this whole question of reinforcing corruption or therefore seem to be willing to deal with the corrupt cleaning up corruption and you have got the whole part of the administration. imbalance between Fatah. Of course we encouraged Mr Cooper: As far as finance is concerned, the central the elections but the fact was the way that Fatah ran figure is Fayyad who is seen as being probably not the its elections it was obviously going to lose because of single incorrupt man in this organisation but he the use of lists and everything else. We have got a real certainly has a very good reputation. I think perhaps problem now with on the one hand relying on the the other point I would make is I actually do not Arab states giving aid and the other hand trying to think that aid is really the central issue in this. I think deal with the corruption issue, and there is a real that it is really about political recognition in the non- problem with how you run elections. formal diplomatic sense. I do not have the impression Mr Cooper: I was not saying that we were relying on that there is really a big shortage of money in this the Arab states giving aid; they just are. Christian, area. If the Government of National Unity works the you know more about the Saudi aid than I do. Saudis are said to have oVered large sums of money. Mr Jouret: Just one thing, the Saudis pledged $1 At the Rafah crossing point we regularly find people billion for the Palestinians during the Mecca with suitcases full of money. The aid is a part of the negotiations and we were told last week by the Saudis story and but it is not the central part of the story and themselves that it is still somewhere in Saudi Arabia, the real question is about political recognition. so they cannot give their money because they cannot go through the normal international financial system. They have a problem and the only solution for them Q260 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Carrying on on this for the moment is to put their money in our point, in turning to the Israeli side of the equation, Temporary International Mechanism, in our system, where one would seem to have a rather weak but they are a bit reluctant to do so. government which has great diYculty in coming to terms with the way this debate is now moving, do you Q263 Lord Chidgey: Can we move on to the not think that rather than struggling to get a formal institutional dimension on our list of questions. Just negotiating or dialogue process between Israel and picking up on the points that were made earlier about whatever bits of institutions the Palestinians form, we the EU not being a state when we talked about the may have to settle for an indirect process in the early Quartet and so forth, and some Member States stages of working on the political horizons because it V Y obviously having slightly di erent perceptions to is just going to be too di cult to get a weak Israeli others, I wonder whether we can tease out how Government to talk to the people we would wish eVective the EU’s relations and activities have been in them to talk to directly? supporting the peace process in this context in Mr Cooper: That seems to be the way that it is going comparison with the bilateral negotiations of Y at the moment. It is very di cult to judge what the individual states which are obviously now going on in Israeli Government is going to do but there is one parallel? Do these relations complement each other school of thought which says that the only way out of in a consistent and coherent way or is it the reverse; the weakness for the Israeli Government is actually to do they actually hinder the process, while individual do something, otherwise they are doomed. It is Member States perhaps put as a priority their own almost a matter of personalities when you get to that interests rather than the interests of the EU and the point. As I understand it, at the moment the Israeli/ Quartet, or is it the other way round? Palestinian contacts, which are really rather few and Mr Cooper: I think that in the case of the Israeli/ far between, are not dealing with the big political Palestinian question there is a real underlying issues at all and so Condoleezza Rice has, as we do, consensus in the European Union, so I think that it is contacts with both sides but it remains to be seen how complementary. 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23 March 2007 Mr Robert Cooper and Mr Christian Jouret the world is. I do not have an impression of eVorts by Q266 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Could I just pursue individual Member States undermining the collective that a little bit further. If one of the individual eVort. There is one case I suppose one could quote countries is talking to one of the countries in the which is Syria where the visit that Javier Solana made region, are they honour bound and are they actually was on the understanding that he would be (I hope feeding back what intelligence they gain from that to sole but we will see how that works out) the sole but a central EU point? it may turn out to be principal channel of Mr Cooper: I would say on the whole yes. It is not communication to Syria because there have been a possible to vouch for everything but, for example, large number of rather unco-ordinated visits to Syria Christian sees the French cables from the region and and given the diYculty of dealing with Syria, that I see the British cables from the region. The Situation seemed a rather ineVective way to do business there. Centre under William Shapcott has a number of For the question of Israel/Palestine, I do not think representatives of the intelligence services. You never that there is really a problem except just occasionally know of course whether you are receiving all of the when something happens like when there is an information but I do not feel that there is a whole lot election where the Palestinians can find themselves going on that we do not know about. rather overwhelmed with the numbers of European visitors. Q267 Chairman: Mr Cooper and Mr Jouret, we have Q264 Lord Chidgey: Is there any evidence at all of come to 11 o’clock and we are expecting the attempts being made by the principals in the conflict Secretary-General at this time so I think, much as we in the region trying to play one against the other on would like to continue learning from you as we have the bilaterals rather than through the Quartet already a great deal, we probably ought to bring this process? part of our conversation to an end. Can I say on Mr Cooper: The principals are very clever people and behalf of the Committee that we have very much they know well where the diVerent tendencies lie— appreciated the opportunity, as I think we would have expected, to have learnt a great deal this Q265 Lord Chidgey: Exactly! morning and to get a rather clearer position of how it Mr Cooper:—within the European Union, but I am looks from the centre of the Council Secretariat. not sure how diVerent that process is from working Thank you both very much indeed for all your with the Pentagon against the state department. It is contributions. what you do with governments. Mr Cooper: We look forward to the report, as always. 3676421009 Page Type [SO] 18-07-07 04:20:33 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG9

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FRIDAY 23 MARCH 2007

Present Chidgey, L Lea of Crondall, L Crickhowell, L Roper, L (Chairman) Hamilton of Epsom, L Symons of Vernham Dean, B Hannay of Chiswick, L Tomlinson, L

Examination of Witnesses Witness: Dr Javier Solana, Secretary-General of the Council of the EU, High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP), examined.

Q268 Chairman: Secretary-General, we are good one and it was continued through a extremely grateful that in what must be one of the conversation I had the day before yesterday in busiest lives in Europe you have found time to meet Washington with Bandar. You will remember who our Committee today. We are, as I think you know, Bandar is. Bandar was the Ambassador to the United carrying out an inquiry into the European Union and States for 30 years and now has become the National the Middle East and therefore you are the “must see” Security Adviser of the King so he is an important person. We would be very grateful if you could start connection. by talking to us perhaps initially on where you see we _ are now in relation to the Middle East and also The most important positions for the Palestinians on perhaps going on to say where you feel we are going. the finances would be Fayyad, who is somebody we If you are able to talk to us a little bit about that then know very well, the Deputy Prime Minister who is we might want to move on to some rather more somebody we know well (and it is important to specific questions. remind you that the Deputy Prime Minister is the one Dr Solana: Thank you very much. I am very happy to who will be living in Ramallah, the Prime Minister receive you once again here in Brussels. I will answer will be in Gaza and it would be very diYcult to move directly because you do not have much time. On the out of Gaza in the north so the personality Middle East I would like to mention three topics representing the Government in Ramallah will be which I think are important and which are inter- important); and the Minister of the Interior, who is related. I have just come back from an important trip the third figure and someone who we do not know to Damascus, to Lebanon and to Saudi Arabia and deeply but we know fairly well, and he has been I think the three most important factors we have to chosen to my mind in order to leave enough space to consider, which as I have said are inter-related, are Muhammad Dahlan who has been appointed as the peace process as such that one has taking place National Security Adviser. As you have probably with the Unity Government on the question; the followed, the first reaction of Haniya has been to second thing we have to look at is the role of the criticise that appointment and therefore it is an important Sunni countries—what is the role of Saudi appointment that is going to have some diYculties. Arabia, what is the role of Syria—and in particular That is the first thing. The second thing the Saudis how all that relates to the situation in Lebanon, want to do is to see if they can strike an agreement in which I think is the key; and thirdly, I think we have Lebanon. As you know, the agreement in Lebanon to look at the more global picture which has to do now has two elements: the nature of the Unity with the last meeting that took place on Saturday in Baghdad with the President and neighbours of Government and the question of the International Baghdad, because that is also having an influence on Tribunal. _ the behaviour of some Sunni countries and it may in the future have some influence also on the solution of The possible compromise may be that one of the 11 the whole problem. Let me start with the first, which would be more neutral, so instead of 19 plus 10 plus is the National Unity Government. I think it is very one, it would be 19 plus 11 and one of the 11 is a little important to say that the National Unity bit more by the consensus of the two factions. The Government has been brokered by the Saudis. As second thing is the Tribunal and the Tribunal is you know, Damascus tried to do it before and it fundamental. As you know, the Tribunal is going failed and then the Saudis took over and I would like through a very complicated situation. The United to underline that. That means that the Saudis are Nations has agreed on a Tribunal, the Senate has beginning to play a much more important role in accepted a Tribunal but now Congress, the House of the region. Representatives, has to accept it and the impression _ is the Speaker of the House has not convened the Let me tell you that my last conversation with the House in order to make an appropriate decision. The King took place last Tuesday was a long and very Saudis accept the concept of the Tribunal but they do 3676421009 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:33 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG9

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23 March 2007 Dr Javier Solana not accept the statute of the Tribunal as it has arrived cut oV relations but we will maintain the members of from New York. They will only accept something Hamas outside of our contacts. As far as the that comes out of a consensus with the Lebanese. The financing is concerned, for the moment we are going Lebanese are not allowed to meet and it is very to maintain the TIM, the same mechanism, and we diYcult to find a consensus and therefore we may be are going to wait for three months and see how it in a position of a delay of the Tribunal. What can we evolves and, as you know, and it has been in the do? We are going to continue putting pressure, the Financial Times and in the Herald Tribunal, in the last Saudis will continue putting pressure and as you three years we have given more money to the know on the 28th of this month there is a very Palestinian people (not through government important summit in which all these things are going channels but to the Palestinian people) than ever to be talked about. I have been invited to participate before. That is the situation as I see it now. I will not in the summit and I will be there and we will have to be more precise at this point in time about how I see see what we can obtain. But—and I want to put this the coming days. From today until the last day of this as a potential idea—the Tribunal will have to be month or let us say April we have an important created by Chapter VII and that will be very diYcult. period of time with the summit on 28 March and with _ two more meetings around Baghdad which will take It was a good meeting not only because it took place place, one in Cairo probably, and it still is not clear and it showed the will of all the neighbours in what the level will be but it is very likely that before principle to continue the stability of Riyadh but it the end of April there will be a ministerial meeting of was good because for the first time Damascus joined neighbours of Iraq. If that is the case, you can the Arab consensus and not the Iranian consensus. imagine there will be the possibility of other contacts For the first time Damascus took the same position around those two days that they will be together. If at all along the two days along the lines of the Arabs. the same time we have success on the Resolution of What does that mean? Is that going to continue and the UN, which I hope will be approved today and what is going to happen from today from Saturday tomorrow, we will see how all these things fit together until the 28th because the obsession of President in the coming period of time. As far as Rice is Assad is to see if he can get a summit within the concerned, Secretary Rice will be in the region on the summit of Mubarak, King Abdullah and himself so 23rd and 24th. She is not going to have a trilateral he wants by all means to be incorporated into the meeting, she is going to have two bilateral meetings, leadership of the Arab world again. with Hamas and with Olmert. Immediately after that _ I will go and we will continue to keep on pushing in If you put that together with the debate that is taking the same direction, so it will be an organised division place today in the United Nations, when the of labour. I went first to the Saudis, to the Lebanon Resolution on Iran is done, if it is done, probably it and then to Damascus for the first time and she is will be announced tomorrow and I will make a now going to the region to see the Palestinians and statement immediately after that. If as we expect the the Israelis and then we will join in the middle of the Resolution is approved unanimously we will say that month and I think we will have a Quartet. Our hope we want to continue to make an eVort to negotiate now is to have a meeting of the Arab Quartet, let us put it that way, plus a meeting with the Arab Quartet, with Tehran. I have the report of the American the Egyptians, Saudis, Jordanians and Emirates. administration. I met with them yesterday and with And if possible the eight of us will meet also with the Condoleezza Rice so we are going to see if we can parties and with Hamas separately, and that is the move that process forward in the coming period of objective that we have now. It still is not sure that that time. It will not be easy, as you know, but we have the will be possible but if that is possible it will be the first whole of the Middle East again in a fluid situation. _ time that a meeting of that nature has taken place and that will create, I hope, a new dynamic more positive It is worth also reading the speech of Abbas. The than the dynamic we have had in the past. There is a speech of Abbas is a very tolerant speech which is lot of activity in the coming days; let us hope that this worth reading because he put forward all the things activity leads somewhere. that we believe are completely in accordance with the position of the international community, represented by the Court. So I think that we have started a Q269 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: That was process—a process that may be long and that may be terrific, thank you very much. adapted by Hamas—to see how we can restore the Dr Solana: I am sorry if it was too long. relationship with the Government. For the moment we are going to maintain the same position that we Q270 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: No have maintained in the past. We are going to make absolutely not because I think you have covered so contact with members of the Government with whom many of the questions we would otherwise have we met before such as Fayyad. We are not going to asked you. Can we come back to the point about the 3676421009 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:33 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG9

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23 March 2007 Dr Javier Solana

Saudis trying to do this brokerage and the diYculties going to take with support from the United States that there are over the blockages particularly in afterwards in favour of some kind of dialogue. Is that Beirut at the moment, and those blockages obviously going to be an unconditional oVer or is it still going inspired as they are from Damascus. Can I ask you, to be dependent on the Iranians first stopping their Secretary-General, it is my experience as a minister enrichment activities? that the Saudis’ relationship with Damascus was Dr Solana: The position there has not changed always diYcult but that it has got so much worse now whatsoever. All the conversations or pre- because of the oVence taken by the King of Saudi negotiations or whatever you want to call it with Arabia over the way in which Bashar al-Assad has Riyadh have not moved on to negotiations because behaved. What is the brokerage going on there to try they have not accepted suspension. It may be a to bring Syria towards—who is putting pressure on double suspension: they suspend the process of the Syrians? The Syrians’ place is with the Arabs, not enrichment and we suspend our activity in New with the Iranians. Egypt clearly wants to do that but York. What we are now moving to, and the how are the Syrians being brought into this because Americans have accepted, is not to ask for an they are not part of the Quartet that you described indefinite suspension but to ask for a suspension for but they are a key stakeholder? the duration of the negotiations and at the same time Dr Solana: Syria now is one of the most diYcult agree that the negotiations will have a limited time, countries to handle. Let me tell you that I had been a let us say of four or five months, at which moment we frequent visitor to Syria until the assassination of will analyse if we are pleased with the way the Hariri and at that point I stopped and I did not go negotiations are going. If we continue we will until last week. I went because we agreed among the continue with the suspension; if not, we will break. 27 that it would be better to represent the interests We can produce the minutes of the previous meeting of Europe. to see how we prepared the definition of suspension _ but it will not be formal negotiations because the For the moment no agreement has been reached but Americans will never join the negotiations if the they are open to talk. I do not think that they will go machines are rotating, if I may say. very far in that direction, to tell you the truth. What is new I think is that the Syrians now feel a level of Q273 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I think you have isolation from the Arab countries, in particular from made a big progress—with the Americans I mean. the Saudis. You know that after the speech from the Dr Solana: Really tremendous progress. I came back President the Saudis did not want to talk about this yesterday very, very happy because of the at all. atmosphere. I had several meetings with Rice and _ Hadley, the three of us alone for hours, and I think Now, as I said, the thing that they wanted to obtain we have made some progress. the most before the 28th is a triangular meeting of _ Damascus with Cairo and Riyadh. I am not sure that is possible. I do not think that Mubarak and the King are very keen on that but, as you know, when the Q274 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: I think you have Arabs get together in Riyadh they will be together for partly answered this question but do you see deals so many hours that maybe you will see pictures of the being done with Iran and Syria simultaneously and three together. What is the role that is played by do they have to be simultaneous? Do we have to bring Tehran in this? You can imagine that Tehran now them both on side at the same time or might one being under the scrutiny of the Security Council with follow the other with a period in between? the new Resolution will not like it very much that Dr Solana: This is a personal position really because Damascus is separating itself from the position of the deal with Tehran and Damascus has two Tehran, so therefore all these things are very much components. In particular with Tehran there is the linked in time and in policies and we have to see how nuclear component and there is the component of things develop in the coming days. their behaviour in general in the region, which applies _ to their behaviour in Lebanon and their behaviour in Afghanistan, and we cannot forget that Afghanistan is becoming part of the problem also or part of the Q271 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean solution. With Damascus we have to concentrate on _ how they are going to deliver and this is the most Chairman: Lord Hannay? important thing, so there we do not have the third dossier which is nuclear which is more diYcult. I do Q272 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Could I ask you not think there have to be agreements simultaneously something strictly speaking a little outside our scope, with Iran and with Damascus but they will not be but you mentioned it, on the Security Council’s very far apart because relations with Tehran and Resolution on Iran and the position that you are Damascus are, as you know, pretty tense. 3676421009 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:33 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG9

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23 March 2007 Dr Javier Solana

Q275 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Do those two Dr Solana: Why do you see a problem with the US? countries have to be squared before we can look to an agreement between Israel and Palestine? Q280 Lord Chidgey: Because inevitably it seems to Dr Solana: I do not think that it has to be completely me that because of US foreign policy towards the squared. I think that at the end of the day the whole Middle East there are many, many countries which thing will have to be in one package if we want to automatically oppose the US’s ambitions because of have a comprehensive peace. I do not think the whole their relationship with Israel and I wondered if it package could be brokered without solving the undermined the Saudis’ position to have a greater Golan issue, but I think that we could move on the role because of their closeness with the US, or not; I Palestinian track regardless, not going all the way to ask you? the end, but begin to move on the Palestinian track. Dr Solana: Very important things are taking place. I _ do not know if you have read the statement of the last Once we have the basic elements we can see how the meeting in Kuwait between the four Arab countries furniture can be put into the diVerent rooms through and Dr Rice. It is a very important statement and it negotiation. I think this is the type of metaphor that is worth reading. It was not published in our press for we are using with that. They have accepted it as a reasons which I do not know but it is very important metaphor and let us see how we can put the metaphor because this is the bargain of the four countries into operation, which is not easy, but this is what we saying we will help you in Iraq; you will help us trying are trying to do. The debate about Damascus, as you to get Palestinians moving, and we will continue know, is open in the Knesset. There are groups which working to stop Tehran. These are the three elements say, “Why don’t we open Damascus now, it may be of the agreement, which is a very important easier, it is better to define the problem, it does not statement. It is not set out as clearly as I describe it have the connotation of Palestinian refugees et but that is the content of that agreement. That was cetera, so why don’t we get into that? At least we will signed in Kuwait less than a month ago. It is an open one door of hope.” Olmert still has not taken important division of labour in a sense. Is everybody that view but it may happen that the atmosphere is going to play his part in the bargain? We will see. created and Damascus behaves better, in particular on the control of the north-east border, because this Q281 Chairman: Secretary-General, we only have a is the manner in which the weapons arrive to limited amount of time. Hezbollah. Dr Solana: I have an infinite amount of time. Chairman: Three of my colleagues are anxious to get Q276 Lord Chidgey: Secretary-General, in your in and I am going to call them in the order of Lord opening comments you made a very interesting Lea, Lord Crickhowell and Baroness Symons. remark regarding the Saudis taking a much more active and important role as part of a policy Q282 Lord Lea of Crondall: Dr Solana, we have all determination, if you like, to stop the influence of been very impressed by the scope and detail of your Iran or the Persians spreading through the region. I picture. When we started our inquiry we had a bit of wonder if you could explain to me or to us how those a debate about whether what we were looking at was dynamics are going to work. just Israel/Palestine in some sense or the broader Dr Solana: What I told you is what the Syrians picture. We cannot go away from this morning described as their various tactics and strategies. That without realising that Iran for example, Damascus is not to say those strategies can operate but that is for example, Riyadh, Mecca, Egypt, all of these what they told us. things are part of the picture. Would you comment on whether that is a correct understanding of the jigsaw that you are painting? Could you characterise Q277 Lord Chidgey: I see. it in this sense: is this partly because of the Shia/Sunni Dr Solana: It is not myself who speaks; it is they who question or bringing Syria back into the Arab world speak. We have to understand why sometimes they in some sense or the other way round, saying that the go slowly and the National Unity Government is not bigger crisis in actually in the short term Iran/Israel perfect, and we cannot forget, they say, their and that we cannot other than see all these things in objective. a collective piece of architecture? Dr Solana: _ Q278 Lord Chidgey: _ The Israeli-Palestinian track continues to be absolutely fundamental because the other Sunni moderate countries will not sustain public opinion on Q279 Lord Chidgey: But does the closeness of the co-operating with Riyadh and co-operating with the US and Saudi work against that? United States or co-operating with the Europeans, et 3676421009 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:33 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG9

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23 March 2007 Dr Javier Solana cetera, if they do not see something moving on the We have two witnesses in the Palestinians and the Palestinian track, and therefore the Palestinian track Israelis. Can we construct strength out of two continues to be fundamental. We want to maintain witnesses? The only manner we have is to jump this scheme. This scheme has a point of failure if forward to take a decision which is beneficial for nothing happens in the Palestinian/Israeli track both. At this point in time the only initiative that is because the leaders of the Arab countries will not beneficial for both is to move towards peace. That is behave in the manner that they are behaving now the hope that we have and we have to work on that. because of public opinion if they do not receive That is what the Americans also have realised. something positive on the peace process. They have to notice that we care about that process. They have QQ285–288 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: to explain to their own people that we care. We may _ not resolve it completely but at least we have to show them we care, and that is the important thing in Q289 Chairman: Secretary-General, it has been convincing Condi Rice to really get engaged more extraordinarily valuable for us to really see what the personally because we are already doing it. work of the High Representative is in practice because this gives us a feel for the function of the Q283 Chairman: European Union within the Quartet and more widely _ dealing with the problems of the Middle East. I wonder if I could just end with a final question as to Q284 Lord Crickhowell: Dr Solana, you have given whether you could see any specific things that the us a fascinating account of the relationships and the European Union can now do to advance the peace developing situation in the Arab world. We have a process, how far we should be looking towards a rather weak Israeli Government. Would you like to political horizon and how far we could take that say a little more about Israel than you have said so forward, because that is what you will be discussing far? when you have your meeting? Dr Solana: Dr Solana: I will tell you very frankly what we should _ do: firstly, we must maintain unity amongst Israel is a country which has a lot of complications, ourselves. Without unity amongst ourselves it is bad. more than the complications that derive from the Secondly, we have to support some inches ahead of war, and you know there is a commission that is Dr Rice. Dr Rice is playing rather a bold game and I going to provide a response probably by the end of am sure she has the support of the President the month of March or in April and no longer. otherwise she would not do it but it is not clear that Everybody knows that the report of the Commission everybody is behind her on this issue. Therefore to is going to be very tough. What is going to be the help her in this issue I think it is important and what scheme after Kadima, what is going to be the future I try to do is go some inches faster or ahead so that of Kadima is a question mark . The hope that we have we can create an atmosphere of trust. We have an is that the only outcome that this Government has is atmosphere of trust between the two sides of the to jump forward; the only solution it has is to move. ocean which is very, very good and that allows her to If they stay still they will collapse. If they move with continue and it allows her to push. That is what I Hamas with some steps in the direction of peace, the would do. polls of yesterday were that 57% of the people in Chairman: Yes, Secretary-General again can I say on Israel accepted the Unity Government as something behalf of the Committee this has been the high point positive, so the appetite for peace is really an appetite of our inquiry. We have seen European foreign policy which is growing. Do we have leaders with enough in practice listening to you this morning and the power to recognise that appetite and who have the range of activities that you have been involved in and courage to move on? We do not know really because the analysis which you have presented for us. We will being so long in this report is really very, very be continuing with our report. We hope to be able to diYcult, but this is an element which is there and contribute usefully to this debate. You have helped us unfortunately this is the negative element we have. a great deal by showing us what can be done. 3676421010 Page Type [SE] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

96 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence

THURSDAY 29 MARCH 2007

Present Anderson of Swansea, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Chidgey, L. Roper, L. (Chairman) Crickhowell, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Tomlinson, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Janner of Braunstone, L.

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: His Excellency Dr Oded Eran, Israeli Ambassador to the European Union, Brussels, and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher, examined.

Q290 Chairman: Your Excellency, we are very your government to take to reinvigorate the process grateful to you for coming to meet the Committee and help to facilitate the economic situation for today and in particular for having come from Palestine? Brussels. We know of your very considerable His Excellency Dr Eran: Obviously as we speak there experience both in dealing with matters of the are eVorts to revive the peace process. The Secretary European Union and indeed in dealing with matters of State of the United States was there in the last few in your own region. We would be very grateful if days. The Arab League is meeting as we speak to perhaps you would introduce yourself for the record discuss, among other issues, what is known as the and, if you have an introductory statement, you Arab League Initiative or the Saudi Initiative. One of might like to make it now. Otherwise we will move to the results of the visit of the Secretary of State is the our questions. The Committee which is carrying out biweekly meetings between the Palestinian President, this inquiry on the European Union and the Middle Mahmoud Abbas, and the Israeli Prime Minister, East is very pleased that we have been joined by one Ehud Olmert. In my view, it would be very diYcult at of our colleagues from the House, Lord Janner, this juncture to revive the eVorts to reach a today, who is not a Member of the Committee but comprehensive peace process. The gaps in position has, as you know, a very considerable interest in are still very wide and we find ourselves in a very these matters. peculiar situation whereby there is a will but not His Excellency Dr Eran: I would like to open by necessarily the political power to do this. Let me expressing sympathy and understanding for the dwell for a second on the situation on the Palestinian situation of the hijacked sailors who are kept in Iran. side. We have a peculiar situation whereby the We can very closely associate ourselves with this President of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud situation. My name is Oded Eran. I am the Israeli Abbas, has committed himself to the road map and Ambassador to the EU covering NATO as well. For to the two state solution. On the other hand, when the sake of this discussion, I have spent almost 20 you look at the platform of the Palestinian years of my life trying to bring peace to the Middle government, you would not find any reference to the East. I have been the Israeli Ambassador for Jordan. basic concept on which any peace process can be V I have been dealing with economic a airs predicated and that is the two state solution. Not concentrating on the regional cooperation in the only that but there are references and code words Middle East and when I retire I hope to continue to which indicate that this particular government is not do this. I do not have an introductory statement renouncing violence and terror as a means of getting because I guess you wish to ask me questions. I will the national aspirations of the Palestinian people. reserve all I would have said in an introductory There are other issues that could be obstacles to the statement for answers to your questions. attainment of the peace process. For example, the platform says that every agreement that would be Q291 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed, your reached has to be submitted to a referendum of Excellency. We are taking a note of this meeting and Palestinians in and outside the Palestinian territories, we will be able to use it as part of the evidence when which is almost a guarantee that it will not get the we come to draw up our report but if at any stage you approval of the Palestinians. Therefore, it is a very were prepared to go oV the record perhaps you could strange situation where, on the one hand, the let us know and we will proceed for a short period on President is willing to discuss comprehensive peace that basis. That is an option which you have on the two state solution basis while his own available. Can I ask you about your own views of the government does not have it on the platform. If I may current situation regarding the Middle East Peace add a personal note here, our situation on the Israeli Process and in particular the policy which you expect side is also politically quite diYcult though the 3676421010 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher government enjoys a wide majority and the bulk of His Excellency Dr Eran: This is a very important the Israeli population has long accepted the idea of question because the idea of the unilateral the two state solution. Currently the government is disengagement came at a juncture where there was facing serious domestic problems which may aVect its very little hope to revive bilateral talks with the ability to go into comprehensive, full scale Palestinians. The then Prime Minister, Sharon, took negotiations. Therefore, we should all be very careful this decision, almost personally, to go for a unilateral not to create the illusion that there is a possibility to disengagement from Gaza which was accomplished. jump start the comprehensive peace process There were many in Israel who questioned the negotiations. We should concentrate on what is wisdom of the policy because the argument was that attainable, what is feasible, and create the it is much better to reach a bilateral agreement with circumstance and the environment from which then, your adversary or the other side, which would have once the political circumstances allow, we can then created a better understanding and atmosphere, but turn to the attempt to find a comprehensive solution. the policy had been carried out. However, two This brings me to the second part of your question: important things happened. The violence and the what can be done and what can my government do? terror continued from Gaza. There is daily shelling of Currently, the socio-economic situation on the Israeli towns and rockets launched from the Gaza Palestinian side has reached dangerous dimensions. Strip. Gaza became a powder keg. There is a lot of In the international community—in the international smuggling of weapons and explosives from Egypt community I also include the Arab states—and into Gaza. What is called the Philadelphia Axis, Israel, all of us have to pay attention and to make a which is the border between Gaza and Egypt, became serious eVort to alleviate the economic situation very porous, more than it was before. Before there there. We can increase the economic assistance and were tunnels and now it is almost wide open. Many especially the economic assistance directed to long in Israel challenged the premise of what is the use of term, economic recovery through the mechanisms taking unilateral actions if this is the “reward” for the which exist and which can be improved. As you all return on the policy. Secondly, there was also quite a know, there is the Temporary International wide criticism of the way the evacuated settlers were Mechanism and there are discussions to try and dealt with by the Israeli government. Then Prime improve and increase its scope. We can work Minister Sharon became incapacitated and the whole opposite the President, Mr Mahmoud Abbas, and idea evaporated to a large extent. I cannot say that it use the mechanism attached to the presidency to try will never come back in one way or another but for and reach an understanding of how to do it. As far as the time being the whole idea has been very much the Israeli government is concerned, we can of course shelved. I do not see that there will be in the improve the situation in the passages, both for people foreseeable future a major repetition of this exercise. and goods. We can find a way to transfer more of the tax money to the presidency, provided that the Palestinian presidency can find a way to monitor the Q293 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Could I ask one disbursement of the money so that the money does question about the first part of your reply which not go to any terror infrastructure. We can under related to the Middle East Peace Process and one certain circumstances increase the number of about the second part which related to the operations Palestinian labourers inside Israel which is a very within the Palestinian Authority? On the Middle East important factor. Almost a third of the Palestinian Peace Process, I am sure you are familiar with the GNP depends on labour in Israel. Currently, the phrase “political horizons” which seems to have levels of unemployment are really reaching become rather fashionable in recent times and which dangerous dimensions. Let me give you an is taken I think by most of the people who use it as illustration. Every year between 50,000 to 60,000 a shorthand way of describing the final status issues, Palestinians are added to the labour market. I do not Jerusalem, borders, refugees et cetera. Was I right in believe that there are even 10% of new jobs created thinking that you were expressing the view that even annually to absorb some of these new labour the discussion of these political horizons is premature workers. Obviously a lot can be done and should be and impossible to undertake at this stage because, if done in a concerted eVort by the international so, there is surely a rather sharp contrast in the views community, including Israel. of the American Secretary of State, the European Union, the Arab Quartet and a lot of other people, who have all expressed a strong desire to bring within Q292 Lord Anderson of Swansea: At the time of the the scope of any future discussions the “political last Israeli elections, the conventional wisdom was horizons”. Perhaps you could take that a little that there would be further unilateral moves on the further. I was not absolutely sure whether what you West Bank as there have been in Lebanon in 2000 and were saying was that you did not think it could be Gaza in 2005. Has that policy by Israel been totally discussed with certain people or whether it could not abandoned now? be discussed at all. Secondly, on what you said about 3676421010 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher the situation in the Palestinian territories, which you sort of an understanding. I do not believe that described in very dramatic terms, I thought quite Mahmoud Abbas can deliver on that because there is correctly, you said there were certain things that a situation where one camp on the Palestinian side could be done to improve the situation. I am not sure believes that the solution is the two state solution, of I picked up any reference to the retention of taxes and course solving the three major issues, and there is one tariVs which Israel holds and which basically belong camp which does not believe that this is the solution. to the Palestinians, but which have not been released This camp happens to be the majority, at least as far to them. Is that also part of a feasible way forward to as the results of the elections in 2006 indicate. There help them improve their economic situation? is even some danger in creating the illusion that they His Excellency Dr Eran: Let me deal with the last part can bring a solution. Under the current of your question. We are not challenging the fact that circumstances, I believe the continuation of the the money is Palestinian money. We never claimed international pressure can create a situation where the money to be Israeli money. What we are saying is the government, not the party—we all know that that we need to make sure that the money goes to parties do not change ideologies overnight—can positive, constructive purposes. That was not the case change ideologies. Therefore, I am not interested in before. When the last Palestinian government after what is the ideology of Hamas; I am interested in the elections in January 2006 came to power, we what the platform of the government is. I say that the stopped the flow of taxes to the Palestinian Palestinian government may change its position on government with the exception of the $100 million this particular issue under the pressure of the and 30 million shekels which have been passed in international community and the Arab League. I recent months to Mahmoud Abbas. Some of the $100 believe that pressure is exerted by all these bodies on million apparently found its way into purposes we the Palestinian government to modify the terms. This did not wish to see the money going to. In principle, will be the moment when they do change and they do the Israeli government would be willing to continue accept the basic notion of the two state solution. If the flow of the money to the Palestinian Authority they accepted the road map, in my view, that would Y provided that they could create a clear cut be su cient to go into the next stage of discussing mechanism monitoring where the money goes. On final issues. A possible discussion on the political the issue that you raise, first of all, we said and we horizons may serve a positive purpose but, on the continue to say that we will talk to Mahmoud Abbas other hand, it could create illusions which I believe and any camp on the Palestinian side which accepts right now are quite dangerous, given the fact that the road map and the three benchmarks created by even if you reach an understanding on them you the Quartet. That is obvious. Let me now express my cannot translate it into a politically legal binding own views on the issue of the political horizons. You document in my view. are absolutely right. When one speaks about the political horizons, one speaks about the three major Q294 Lord Lea of Crondall: Surely the Arab Quartet issues which were and will be the major subjects for et cetera and Hamas are partly what all this is about, negotiation and the creation of the two state solution, are they not, to make sure that the credibility of the two states as a comprehensive solution to the Israeli whole of the Palestinian government can become Palestinian conflict. Each one of them as we all more of a negotiating partner? know—and I know from my own experience as a His Excellency Dr Eran: What happens on the Arab Y participant in the Camp David talks—is su cient to side is very important and interesting. The Arab derail the whole process. On each one of them we League initiative from 2003 is a step in the right have diVerences of opinion between us and any direction but a step. When you look at the document moderate Palestinian counterpart, on Jerusalem, on from our point of view, it has the one important refugees, on borders. It is possible to discuss them element which is the recognition of the state of Israel and to try and narrow the gaps which exist but my and the willingness, assuming solution of the three argument was that I am not so sure where they lead. major issues, to end the conflict, something, by the Let us say that we have these biweekly meetings. By way which Arafat failed all along the negotiations to the way, the agreement now is to discuss current say—that if these issues are solved that will be the end issues between Mahmoud Abbas and Olmert in these of the conflict. I never heard him say that. Therefore, meetings rather than long term issues. You can create these two elements in the Arab initiative are very an understanding on each one of them but they are important. However, there are at least three major meaningless in the sense that they do not create an issues in which there is a wide gap between what the agreement. Certainly they do not create any legal Arabs are agreeing and what the Israelis, if I can understanding or a binding document. I come back generalise, are willing to oVer. On the issue of to the issue which I raised in my opening answer. Let refugees, for example, it says that the solution should us say that tomorrow morning the two sides in the be based on UN resolution 194. I do not know any discussions about the political horizons reach some Israeli government of any colour which will accept 3676421010 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher that. The Arab initiative speaks about the full return even if the political parties behind them do not do so. to the 1967 line and I do not know of any other Israeli What in concrete terms would provide a suYcient government which will accept it. I would submit, as a guarantee to the Israeli government to lift its boycott side remark, just think about it. If Israel decided of the administration? tomorrow morning to go back to the 1967 lines, this His Excellency Dr Eran: Like the international would be detrimental to the Palestinian state because Quartet, we accept what they asked for as in 1967 there was no connection between the West benchmarks. I do not want to call them conditions Bank and Gaza. Gaza was Egypt; the West Bank was because I am not sure that the Quartet itself would Jordan. If we go back to the 1967 line, this state call them conditions. Therefore I would use the word would be divided. There was no connection between “benchmarks” although I would very much like to these two territories before 1967. To give you another see them as conditions for the continuation of the example, everyone speaks about a port in Gaza international aid directed to the government. They which to my mind is ludicrous, economically speak about the three conditions: renunciation of speaking. Gaza is a small territory the size of a terror and violence, the recognition of Israel’s right to handkerchief with the highest density of population exist and acceptance of previous agreements signed in the world or probably very close to the highest. by the PLO. What the Palestinian government has to They do not have the space to have a serious port do is to say very simply, “We accept the road map” which would be the solution and my personal view, because the road map ipso facto contains all these having dealt with this issue for years, is to ask Israel three conditions. If you accept the two state solution to have a semi or fully autonomous dock in the which is the motto of the road map, you accept nearby Ashdod port with a direct 12 kilometres of Israel’s right to exist. When you go through the first railway to Gaza and let the Palestinians run it from phase of the road map you accept the renunciation of A to Z. That is not 1967. That is the second issue. It terror and violence. If you accept the road map you is true that the then Prime Minister, Barack, was accept all other agreements. The three conditions in willing to discuss the dividing of Jerusalem. The Arab my view are what the government has to say they League says the eastern side of Jerusalem should be accept. Then we can continue to cooperate with this the capital. This is another bone of contention. We government and the international community can need to see this and declare that there are positive continue to cooperate with this government. I wish to elements in the Arab League initiative but that see the change in the Hamas doctrine but what elements in it are not the most desired solution, as far matters is what the government says, not what one as we see it. What is more important is that it is leader of a party or another says. obvious that the moderate camp in the Arab world is now trying to convince the Hamas government to go further. The head of Hamas, Mashal, has visited Q296 Lord Crickhowell: Jumping from the previous Riyadh several times in the recent few weeks position to the clear cut position that you want may Y obviously for more than just drinking tea. We should be di cult for them. Prime Minister Olmert has allow time and allow these eVorts to bear fruit. I think welcomed the probability of joint meetings between Hamas begins to understand the need to face these the Quartet and the Arab grouping and has I believe issues. There is a lot of criticism inside the Palestinian said that he would be happy to attend. Is it not quite territories against the performance of the Hamas likely that what will happen is that the form of words government ever since January 2006. Therefore, in will be found in such a joint meeting to which the this case, the pressure may bear fruit but we should Hamas government would find it easy or possible to give it time. Israel should contribute its part by adhere, pressed by their Arab neighbours actively participating in the international eVort to particularly, which may not go the whole way but rehabilitate the Palestinian economy. There is a lot to which will at least move the process forward? It may Y be done even if you cannot reach an agreement on the be di cult for them to jump the whole thing in the comprehensive solution issues. way that Israel and the Quartet want them to. Is it not at least a hopeful possibility that we will be getting on to a track of changing the Hamas government’s Q295 Lord Crickhowell: Can I move to the third position that will take us forward? question which is the opportunities and risks posed His Excellency Dr Eran: You put your finger on a very by the formation of the Palestinian National Unity important issue because many people in Europe are Government? You have addressed a good many of saying the very fact that there is a mixed the issues already there. The Israeli government has government—it is not black and white any more; it is rejected the National Unity Government’s guidelines sort of grey—should bring us Europeans to start a as falling short of a full acceptance. You have dialogue with the aim of convincing the government indicated that even now there has been some and Hamas to accept what is required from them by movement and you have pointed out that the international community and Israel. Against that governments can develop and change their position there is the argument that the pressures which were 3676421010 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher exerted by the international community, Israel and in point of view whether you can exist in the solution” adiVerent way the Arab league are a better way and long before we get into the issue of where is the eventually it will bring the desired change. (There Palestinian capital or where exactly are the borders. followed a discussion oV the record) If you remove Who says there will be borders? the pressure, what incentive does Hamas have to change the policy? The money will flow now. The Q298 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Iama discussions will be held. Why would they change their little perplexed about this too because of course there ideology, practices, doctrines and what have you? I was a Palestinian government that did accept the believe that what we need to do is to be careful not to road map. Neither the Palestinian government nor punish the Palestinian people when we apply this the Israeli government fulfilled phase one of the road policy. We have to make sure that, as best we can— map. The Israeli government went on building the it is not very easy—that the pressure is applied on the settlements and the outposts. The security wall went government and mostly on the Hamas part of it, to up and the Palestinians continued to send Qassam V channel all our e orts, activities and money to the rockets into Israel. Both sides failed on the road map. improvement of the situation of the Palestinian When you now say that all we need is the road map, people. It is a very sophisticated line of action. In the evidence is that when you had that it did not work societies like the Palestinian society, most of the and there was stalemate. I find it rather hard to activities are not carried out by the private sector; understand why the road map is now your only way they are carried out by the government and this is through because you had it and nobody acted on it. why, when the team was created, Israel was His Excellency Dr Eran: It is true that the first phase informally consulted and we said, “Yes, pass the was very lacking in implementation. I am not so sure money to the health and education sectors”, that I would apportion the blame equally on the lack although the money went through the government. of implementation of the first stage of the road map. There are several issues which are not necessarily Q297 Lord Chidgey: The question Lord Crickhowell pertaining to the road map. On the issue of the illegal asked, if I have this right, is what would provide a settlements, the Israeli government did take suYcient guarantee to the Israeli government. Am I responsibility for removing them and I can only right in assuming that the answer from the Israeli express the hope that the government will implement government is and is only acceptance of the road map its decisions on this issue. Secondly, the fence has if because if that is the case, with all the other bits going anything helped the chances for negotiations with the round the corners, we are asking the Palestinians to Palestinians on any issue. The fence has reduced capitulate before negotiations start. It does not dramatically the number of casualties on the Israeli happen. We only have to look at Northern Ireland side which enables us to look at the possibility of and how long that has taken to get the two sides to negotiations with the Palestinians removed from the come to an agreement because of the sensitivities, pressures from the results of acts of terror. The fence because of their positions, because of their need to get is not a political statement. It is not an attempt to fix security on all sides. That is the real world. I would the final border at any particular point. There are not want to think that Israel’s position was: accept many instances where the fence corresponds to the the road map and that is it. There must be more. 1967 line. Therefore, the issue of the fence has very There must be a process. little to do with the road map. In spite of your remark His Excellency Dr Eran: Why should there be more? on the implementation of the road map, there is no We are not asking for more. It was done by the other common basis between us and the Palestinians President of the Palestinian Authority. He accepts and indeed accepted by the international community the road map. He does not say, “I do not negotiate on on which we can negotiate. This is the outline. It is any other basis.” We are not asking for any not a solution. I do not want to create any illusion. It capitulation and nor does the international is not. It does not say what should be the solution community. What they are saying is when you, Israel over Jerusalem or refugees. It just outlines how to get and the Palestinians, go to the negotiating table you there. Regardless of the flaws in implementation in need a basic agreement on where you want to get. the first phase, it remains the only acceptable basis on Where we and the international community and the which one can negotiate with the other side. Arab League want to get to is the two state solution. It so happens that when you look at the platform of Q299 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Your answer about the current Palestinian government there is no the wall takes us on to the area which seems to me to reference to it. On the contrary, everything points to be rather important—I would like to hear your them not accepting it. Let us say that tomorrow comment on this—which is the need to have a morning we start the negotiations. Israel forgets process, whether it is to talk about the short term about the road map and the three conditions. The issues in the first and second phase of the road map Palestinian side says, “We have to start from the or about the political horizons, which cannot be 3676421010 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher derailed or overthrown by acts of violence by people also in modern history Israel was deserted at two who are outside the process, because it is perfectly existential junctures in 1967 and 1973 by European clear that, even if the coalition between the countries. That left a scar on the minds of Israelis. Palestinian Authority with Hamas members However, in recent years I have seen a very important accepted the three criteria or conditions, whatever improvement in the bilateral relations between the one wants to call them, or benchmarks, there will still EU and Israel and the growing confidence of Israel in be people outside the process who will wish to use the EU in the context of the peace process. You are violence to prevent the process proceeding. Is it now now seeing Europeans in Rafah on the border with accepted or could it be accepted on the Israeli side Gaza and Egypt. You now see Europeans, not as the that a situation where these talks are going ahead EU, but as Europeans in Lebanon. There is a more needs to be sustained as, for example, we in this intensive, more open dialogue between the Israeli country sustained the process in Northern Ireland, political leadership and that of Europe. All sides to even if people outside it try to use violence to prevent the conflict in the Middle East accept the leading role the process? of the United States. This is also acceptable in His Excellency Dr Eran: It was the late Prime Minister Brussels to the extent that there is now a process. Rabin who coined the phrase, “We will negotiate if Everyone is involved but obviously one can see that there is no terror and we will deal with terrorists if the EU is taking a role. There are many reasons for it. there are no negotiations.” This is a statement which The European political aspect started to develop long will guide all future governments in dealing with the after 1967 and 1973 wars and even after 1978-9. This issue of negotiations. What we always asked the other was when the peace with Egypt was reached in which side to do—that is to say, the Palestinian the US took their leading role and the eVorts to which government, the Palestinian power—was to make an I have alluded in 1999/2000. The Quartet is a very eVort to stop the terror. We realise that every important mechanism in my view and it allows a government may not get 100% success but at least it greater coordination which is very important. It is invests 100% in trying to stop the violence and terror. very important not to send to the parties in the This is what we expected and we continue to expect Middle East diVerent messages and create diVerent from any Palestinian with whom we negotiate. I fully expectations. I would say that when there is a more accept the premise in your question that one has to comprehensive process than we see today, there will negotiate assuming that the political circumstances be a need for a clearer division of labour between are right for this discussion. I want to add a personal Europe and the US. In a very crude way, I would say statement. As someone who participated in the failed that there is the political side of the negotiations but attempt (in Camp David, 2000), I am not so sure that there is also another aspect, which to a large extent we can aVord another failed attempt. The was neglected in Camp David and continues to be consequences of another failed attempt are diVerent neglected, and that is the non-political issue. Let us and could be much more horrendous than the say that there is an agreed solution to the Palestinian consequences of the first failed attempt in 2000. refugees, and obviously no matter what the solution Therefore, I would like to see a very well detailed, is, all of them with no exception will have to be structured attempt in which we know almost to the absorbed somewhere. last detail what will be the outcome before we plunge into it. Q301 Lord Lea of Crondall: That particular characterisation, your Excellency, is exactly what Q300 Lord Lea of Crondall: Question five opens up some people, particularly in the community, are two distinct aspects. One is how does Israel see the known to think is asymmetrical. They do not like the European Union as an actor politically? Is it only idea that America is there to run the politics and seen as a member of the Quartet? Apart from the Europe is there to run something else. Given what Quartet, other countries and the US have bilateral they see as the asymmetry of the political process, dealings. Secondly, do some European countries play therefore, that the Americans are taking the lead in their role more through bilateral procedures, Britain, the Quartet on the political process, they say why France, Germany and so on? does the European Union not occasionally—Mr His Excellency Dr Eran: I hope that being candid will Solana, et cetera—go some inches ahead of the not harm my ability to perform in Brussels. Israeli/ Americans, why not? European relations have gone through diVerent His Excellency Dr Eran: Most of them go to stages. The Jewish European experience is a very rich Washington when they have a problem rather than to one on the one hand and also very diYcult. In 2,000 Brussels, that is the reality, we may not like it but this years we have had a very interesting dialogue which is the situation. I have to admit here, as an observer is rich with cross-fertilization. We also had Pogroms in Brussels, the fact that many of the foreign ministers and violence against the Jewish community in wish to go separately to the Middle East does not Europe culminating in the Holocaust of course but help to create the perception of a unified European 3676421010 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher position. Recently I saw a very interesting should delay for the time being the discussions or the development, and from my point of view very negotiations with Syria. positive, when Solana went to Damascus and was speaking on behalf of the EU, and hopefully the 27 Q303 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Your Excellency, foreign ministers will allow Solana to continue the the focus of the Committee is at two levels, the dialogue with Damascus rather than trying to do it macro-level, the role which the European Union can themselves. We do have a situation in Jerusalem play on the major issues, and also, of course, those where you have in the morning one foreign minister, instruments which the EU can deploy eVectively in in the afternoon another foreign minister and then hoping to bring the peace process forward. One point the following morning you have Mr Solana, so one on the macro one, do you accept that there are can assume that it does not help the posture of the EU downsides also to relying only or mainly on the US as a unified force. I hope I have been suYciently because it depends, therefore, on perceptions within diplomatic. the US? For example, there was a fall eVectively in opposition to the Clinton pressure, the Bush Q302 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Were you quite Administration diverted its attention from that for comfortable with Mr Solana volunteering to give four years or more and, as we move into the US back the Golan Heights which is largely considered presidential campaign, presumably the pressure will part of Damascus? lessen. Now that Israel has a warmer link with the EU His Excellency Dr Eran: He did not formulate it the days of the Venice Declaration are in the past. exactly as you put it! I spoke to him and others who Does Israel see that the EU can play a larger role? went earlier to Damascus, especially after the war in His Excellency Dr Eran: As I said, there is a marked Lebanon last summer, and I said, “You cannot diVerence in the Israeli attitude to the EU and I also deliver and promise land”. I think that Dr Solana believe in the EU attitude towards Israel. There is does understand the diVerence between saying, “That now, what I called elsewhere, a civilised dialogue V is the right of Damascus”, and saying, “I will make between the two, meaning the di erences, which are Israel deliver the Golan Heights”. By the way, if I major issues, are still there but they can be discussed. V may, I want to add a sentence on the issue of the By the way, these di erences may also appear with negotiations with the Syrians because there was a lot the United States once we go into meaningful, serious of commotion in the international press. Even if we negotiations with the Palestinians. The answer in assume that the Syrians are genuine in their wish to short: yes, I do see a more meaningful role for the EU. negotiate a settlement with Israel, and it is not a ploy That will require obviously an internal improvement to try and rehabilitate their stature or perceptions in in the way the EU performs and, as we all know, there the international community, I would still say that is still a long way to go on this issue. The failure of the Israel should not negotiate right now with the Syrians constitution did not help, because one of the major and I put my finger at the present. I had long issues in the constitution was the creation of a foreign arguments with the then Prime Minister Barak on minister in the EU. I am not going into the debate, by this issue when suddenly in November 1999, once the the way, I am just making an observation whether negotiations with the Palestinians had started, he Europe should have a constitution or not. I want to turned to negotiate with the Syrians. I strongly submit to you, your Lordship, that you cannot have argued with him on this issue and I maintain the same two drivers in this case, you need to have a clear position now. Let us say if we start negotiations with division of labour. If the US, for whatever reason, abandons or wishes to abandon the traditional role Syria they will take, in my view, at least a year. V Although the issues are diVerent—there are no we had this would create a di erent situation but this refugees, there is no Jerusalem, only the issue of conflict is too delicate, too complicated. Therefore, I territory and normalisation—it will take a year. emphasise the importance of the Quartet because this Every prime minister since the late Prime Minister is the mechanism whereby the two can co-ordinate and create an understanding of who does what at Rabin said that the results of these negotiations will what point in time and therefore this is a very go to a referendum, that is another year. Removing important mechanism. Beyond the Quartet meetings the settlers from the Golan Heights, given the not so and deliberations I know there is more than that in positive experience with those from Gaza, will take the co-ordination between Solana and the another two years, so four years. The Israeli public Administration which I think is very useful and very opinion, Israeli body politic cannot sustain two sets important. of negotiations, one with Syria and one with the Palestinians. In my view, the heart of the Israeli-Arab conflict is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and we Q304 Lord Anderson of Swansea: If there is a should direct all our eVorts to solve this issue and division of labour then what part is devolved to the then solve the issue with Syria and, therefore, we EU? 3676421010 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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His Excellency Dr Eran: First of all, this would have Q307 Lord Janner of Braunstone: Then what did to be decided, as I said, between the US and the EU. you do? Secondly, we need to see how the process, once it is His Excellency Dr Eran: Then there was a serious there, is evolving. Thirdly, there are various issues, as decline, but the fact is that we are still speaking to the I said. I understand that the non-political issues are Palestinians. You can throw at me all the list of the not as juicy or glamorous as the political issue, but I bad things that happened from terror to violence to submit to you that they are no less important in the withholding taxes to settlements, everything, but we solution of this Israeli-Palestinian conflict, maybe are speaking. I think the fact that you have the more. From my experience as a negotiator, I can tell moderate Arab camp actively involved, which was you that both sides will go to war over a well of water not the case seven years ago, in Camp David, is a very as if we were in the first century AD, not the 21st positive element. The Israeli public opinion went century AD and, therefore, the solution to this through a tremendous change in attitudes toward the particular issue is no less important than deciding solution—what was totally unacceptable 10 years where exactly the border will pass. ago is now acceptable. I think that the changes will occur on the Palestinian side, they will not take 24 Q305 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: When he came to see years to happen and, therefore, what we need to do is us the Egyptian Ambassador described the EU as a to keep the line that was applied, or the policy which chequebook in terms of we were financing what was was applied by the international community, which I Y going on there, and maybe we did not have much think brought small, not su cient, but some changes. political influence. In the platform that I cited there is a reference to His Excellency Dr Eran: I beg to diVer with him, I previous agreements, I cannot deny that, it is not strongly diVer with him. I think the EU as is now drafted in the way you and I would draft it, but it is known, and I gave two great examples, has a presence there. There is a beginning of movement and on the border. The TIM mechanism, by the way, is eventually they will get there, we just need to continue almost purely European in its creation and the way it to exert the pressure to do that without, I repeat, functions. The presence in Lebanon, which is a very punishing innocent people. Therefore, I maintain important one, is not directly connected with the that there will be peace in our time between us and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but it is a sign of the Palestinians, and normalisation with the Arab world. growing Israeli confidence in Europe, and once again If you had told my late parents that I would be the I go back to the Quartet, so I beg to diVer with the second Israeli Ambassador to Jordan they would Egyptian Ambassador, with all due respect. have sent you to a psychiatrist, but I was.

Q308 Chairman: I think I can assume from that you Q306 Lord Janner of Braunstone: First, thank you would feel partial re-engagement with the very much for inviting me to join the Committee. I Government, an element of which the European have been heavily involved in these issues for a very Union is now exploring, might be a useful way of long time. I would like to ask the Ambassador, first encouraging moderation? of all, whether there is any hope at all of any advance His Excellency Dr Eran: The Israeli Government took towards peace with Hamas as part of the Palestinian adiVerent position, as you know. Government? I ask this with a very good friend of mine who is a leader of Fatah who is back into their government. You said you cannot have two drivers, Q309 Chairman: I am aware of that. which I am sure is correct, but there is a great Arab His Excellency Dr Eran: Now I am being paid to make saying that with one hand we alone cannot clap and the Israeli position clear! I think that every avenue if you have got a government in Palestine where there should be used in order to tell the Hamas part of the are two lots of people who do not agree, one of whom Government that they ought to accept what the will not even admit the existence of the State of Israel, Fatah Government part has already accepted in the do you see any hope of peace in the near future or past. even in the distance? His Excellency Dr Eran: Lord Janner, I do see hope. I Q310 Lord Crickhowell: Could I come back to what am telling you from my own experience that if you the EU should be doing, the EU instruments. When look at the developments ever since 1967 and 1973, we were in Brussels last week I think there was total they are all leading me to the conclusion that peace agreement with those we talked to in the various EU will prevail in our region. It took Arafat 24 years; the institutions about the lead role of the United States. PLO had been created in 1964, until in 1988 Arafat It was felt that in the Quartet in the whole process of accepted Security Council Resolution 242, 24 years, drafting and so on, perhaps there was a part the EU but he did accept the resolution. It took another five could play in shifting the position in the United years before we got to the Oslo agreements but we did States, but I do not think there is any disagreement reach mutual recognition. that it is in the Quartet and that role is best played. I 3676421010 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher turn then to the other things that the EU might be least to move to talk to the administration as a whole. doing. Clearly, the EU played a useful role in the You are arguing, I think, that, no, the pressure has election process by supervising it in Palestine. Is a got to be maintained by being absolutely firm, you focus on the reform of the Palestinian institutions cannot talk to them as if they are a collective and capacity-building of the Palestinian administration, you are not prepared to have Administration enough to make a real diVerence in anything to do with the Hamas group which will not the prospects for peace? What do you think are the acknowledge the three principles, that is where you weaknesses of EU assistance in this area? What stand. progress is there, for example, in the security sector? His Excellency Dr Eran: I maintain that, I repeat Having concentrated and said the real role of the EU myself, once you have holes in the policy, the policy is probably with the instruments, would you like to will collapse eventually and you will not get the comment on what perhaps the EU might be doing desired result. This is the position the Israeli more or better with the use of the instruments? Government took but I realise when, for example, His Excellency Dr Eran: Here is the dilemma: on the Salam Fayyad, the minister of finance, comes to town one hand, it is clear that every peace process and he will be met. We also drew the line ourselves every agreement between us and the Palestinians and because the Israeli Government will meet those who its implementation will depend to a large extent on met the Fatah ministers in Ramallah but will not the performance of the two governments. In this case, meet those who met the Prime Minister who is from we speak about the Palestinian Government and, Hamas. We also drew a certain line between Hamas therefore, the building of healthy governance on the and non-Hamas members of the Government, but it Palestinian side is important, but that clashes right is not the meetings that I am referring to, I am now with the formation of this government. speaking about the policy and how do you deal with Therefore, what should the EU do? Reform only the the question you raised, which is an important issue, ministries which are under the control of Fatah the reforms in the Palestinian Government and how ministers and abandon the other ministries, because do you deal with the security issue, which brings me they are under the control of Hamas ministers? to another mission of the EU, the EU COPPS. The Therefore, I suggest that the eVorts should be EU COPPS was created when there was a Fatah delayed. I think the ground should be laid for that in Government and we went along with it. There was a preparation for the day when there is a government need for us to go because we needed to grant the which meets the benchmarks required by the immunities and to allow duty-free entry of the international community. There could be a vehicles in the service of the EU COPPS, so we went discussion with the presidency, those who will discuss along with this but now the question is, what exactly things with Salam Fayyad, will discuss them with is the mission or with whom is it implemented? Is the him, but I think that the whole question is, if you EU going to co-operate and work with security forces want to be credible you ought to maintain a very clear which belong to Hamas? I think it is inconceivable. line on the issue of not dealing with Hamas people and you cannot have it both ways because otherwise Q312 Lord Crickhowell: You say, “We believe in this policy is going to fail very clearly. You cannot democracy”, but as soon as the vote goes against the draw the line if tomorrow morning there is a Hamas way you would like it to go, you are not going to have minister coming and you say to him, “I will discuss any real ongoing discussions to make democracy only the reforms with you but, God forbid, I will not work. discuss any of the peace process issues with you”, it His Excellency Dr Eran: Because democracy is not the will not work, in my view. It will totally erase any only value you are looking for when you are dealing credibility from that position and, therefore, with the peace process, democracy is not suYcient, as assuming we accept that only pressure will bring we see elsewhere. You need to meet other criteria and change in the attitude of the government, then we if you do not meet them it will be very diYcult for the have to maintain it. international community to co-operate.

Q311 Lord Crickhowell: You interestingly addressed Q313 Chairman: Perhaps I could raise the question an issue which I probed quite hard about in Brussels. with you, your Excellency, on the question of the Having served in an administration that believed in Euro-Med partnership and how that has been collective responsibility, it is quite diYcult to helpful, in particular whether Israel’s engagement envisage a situation where you agree to talk to one lot with the European Union through the association of ministers but will not have anything to do with agreement and the European Neighbourhood Policy another lot of ministers. There are those probably in has proved of value and how far has it aVected the the Commission, particularly, who think that is the approaches to the Middle East peace process. You line which should be taken; there are others we have alluded to this already, but is there anything else detected in Brussels who think one should begin at that you feel it would be useful to say? 3676421010 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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His Excellency Dr Eran: I would like to dwell on this influenced by a number of other considerations. issue, with your permission, because I think it is very Would you, your Excellency, perhaps comment on important and related to the role of the EU in the the diVerent ways in which the wider geography and peace process. The Barcelona Process was born in the wider perceptions from diVerent geographical 1995 as part of the euphoria we all went through in backgrounds are going to aVect how the EU sees the post-Oslo era and it was a very useful mechanism what it might call the Middle East peace process? or initiative. To this very day some of this significance His Excellency Dr Eran: I was in Qatar last week and is still there. That is the only forum of which I can my distinct impression was that the number one issue think that Israeli ministers and oYcials sit around the on their agenda is the threats by Iran. You sense it in same table with those from Syria and Lebanon, with the air, you read it in the newspapers, you listen to the whom we certainly do not have any diplomatic conversation and obviously this is a number one relations. Therefore, even if that is the only purpose issue. It brought them also to be more active in the it serves, it serves a very important purpose. It went peace process between Israel and the Palestinians even further than that in trying to create some sort of This they do in order to create a unified camp in an economic relations between all of the Mediterranean attempt to remove the one issue which is creates a countries, which is a process still going on and this is domestic problem for them in the absence of a very important. However, I have two important solution, so I think this is a very important factor. reservations. First, it became too politicised and it Beyond that, you have now a situation where some— has been very diYcult to leave aside the politics and I am not so sure I accept their view—are maintaining concentrate only on the co-operation issues. that a nuclear Iran would have a devastating eVect on Secondly, a policy which treats such a large group of the prospects of a successful peace process because countries on the same basis is bound not to fail, but the argument is that Iran will prevent any agreement to be less attractive to those involved in it. Therefore, just by threat. Already now you have the long arm of in Israel we found the ENP, the European Iran in the form of Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Neighbourhood Policy, a very important addition indirect support they give to Hamas and they and especially the willingness of the EU to adopt the obviously are involved elsewhere in the region. The principle of diVerentiality, which we think is a very negative influence of Iran and other fundamentalist important element. It allows the EU and Morocco, forces in the region are having a serious impact. for example, to develop their bilateral relations in a There is one issue which is you do have then way which befits the wishes and capabilities of increasing economic gaps, increasing poverty and Morocco which have very little to do with those of increasing unemployment as serious issues which Lebanon, or Egypt for that matter. It allows for more have an eVect on the stability of regimes in the region. than one speed in the way the EU handles its relations These issues are not lost on the minds of those who with its neighbours. It is not a substitute for are dealing with them in Brussels. The EU, more than Barcelona, it is a complementary addition. Israel any other international factor, because of geography, looks at the Barcelona Process as a very important is paying attention to these issues, certainly more vehicle and a very important policy. In my view, it has than the United States. to be invigorated, and it can be, and there should be an attempt to eliminate some of the politicising of the mechanism. Therefore, in my view, both the Q315 Lord Lea of Crondall: Is the lesson that a lot of Barcelona Process and the ENP are very important people will be drawing—and the one you have tools of the EU to strengthen the relations. Indirectly, implied but not stated because it is a paradox—that the fact that we do meet together does help to you think the Gulf people, for example, will put more increase the idea of normalisation and the acceptance pressure on Israel as well as other friends to get a of every side of the conflict and, therefore, I repeat, solution to Israel-Palestine in order that Iran can be these are very important instruments. isolated, but it will mean that the Gulf, for example, will put more pressure on Israel? Is that not an inference? Q314 Lord Lea of Crondall: Your Excellency, you His Excellency Dr Eran: It is and, therefore, we were have said that people ought to be careful to keep their very careful not to respond totally negatively to the eye on the ball of the central issue in the Middle East initiative. If you read the speeches made by the Israeli peace process, which is Israel-Palestine. However, we Prime Minister, he made a very important speech at have taken evidence from a wide range of people the memorial for Ben-Gurion and then there was a now, we are halfway through our inquiry, and more government resolution on this issue, trying not to and more people are finding inescapable that wider totally reject the Arab initiative, which in its origin issues in the Middle East impinge in various ways on was a Saudi initiative, and to point to some of the this, the new Arab Quartet includes the Gulf Co- positive elements in it because we understand the Operation Council, for example, and the geography sensitive situation in the Middle East. We cannot, on of the Gulf and the perceptions from there will be the other hand, close our eyes to the serious 3676421010 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher diVerences we have with some of the elements, but we I strongly disagree with your chronology, I do not wanted to encourage indirect dialogue between us think that the first thing which is likely to happen or and the moderate Gulf countries. It is a very diYcult should happen is an agreement between Israel and operation. I know that there is talk about meeting Palestine, I think you have to square the negative with the Arab Quartet and the international Quartet operators, who are Iran and Syria because, let us face but it has to be crafted very carefully so both sides do it, part of that deal of squaring them would be to do not get disappointed. We need, once again, to something about Hezbollah in Lebanon which is a orchestrate it and structure it in such a way which will serious threat to Israel today. If you could get them to not be counter-productive and damaging. Obviously lead on a Palestinian Government then I suspect they there is a very interesting process going on and we do would be much more eVective than these so-called realise the stakes in the region. Once again, in this Arab unity people who come from the Gulf and with respect as well, the EU can be very helpful. I was a whom most of them have nothing in common witness to a conversation where our Prime Minister whatsoever. asked Dr Solana to try and bring the meeting, which His Excellency Dr Eran: It is a very interesting debate. we are now talking about, so things are obviously First of all, I would not lump the negative potential of moving and one has to encourage them on the one Syria with that of Iran because I think that Syria does hand, but make sure that they do not fail on the create a serious problem by hosting all the Palestinian other hand. rejectionist factions in Damascus by aiding and assisting Hezbollah and Hamas, but it is easier to Q316 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Your Excellency, changethe policyofDamascusthanthatofIran.After youhavesaidthatthe Israel-Palestinedimensionisthe all, Syria is an Arab and a Sunni state, not that religion key matter and we should focus almost exclusively on is so strong in Syria but it is a Sunni state. It is that. There are others who look more broadly and say susceptible to Arab pressures and to international V there is a suYcient nexus between the diVerent parts of pressures,andIthinkthatthey arein atotallydi erent the area, that there should, at least, be some situation from Iran and they can be won over, but that recognition of that in terms of seeking tradeoVsona would not change the nuclear programme of Iran. more comprehensive basis bringing in Iraq and Iran. Even if tomorrow morning you somehow separated V Do you reject that entirely? Syria from Iran it would not a ect Iranian His Excellency Dr Eran: Not at all. I think that, in determination to pursue the nuclear option. V principle, there is no reason to exclude Iran and Iraq. Therefore, I am not against the e orts to separate The problem we have with Iran is that the current Syria from Iran and I think that they should continue, policies are irreconcilable with what we want to provided we do it in a sophisticated way, and it can be achieve. Iran is a very important element in regional done. Also I do not think the solution to the Israeli- stability and in regional development but, once again, Palestinian conflict has anything to do with Iraq, or how can you co-operate with a government which with Iran for that matter. They will not have any adopts policies that are totally destructive to what we impact on the situation in Iraq. The situation in Iraq want to achieve. Here is, by the way, another example: has a bearing on— from the beginning Israel supported the eVorts of the V EU 3 and the diplomatic e orts to reach a solution to Q318 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: But Iraq is bringing the crisis on the nuclear programme of Iran, we them together? continue to do that and we believe that what you see HisExcellencyDrEran:Yes,Iraqdoes,Iamnotsosure now is the beginning of the impact of the sanctions. I to what extent. All of the Arab countries, one after the submit to you that we have not exhausted even 50% of other, are concerned about the consequences of Iraq potential sanctions so obviously that is the way to for several reasons, and several good reasons, because continue. if it continues to be destabilised, as it is, it will obviously turn into a source of troubles elsewhere in Q317 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Surely, at the end of the region. Secondly, the territorial integrity of Iraq is the day Iraq is key to whether Iran behaves in a more also very important in its impact on future responsiblewaybecausethatiswhere theyhavea clear development in the region. Therefore, the vestedinterestastowhethertheywantcompletechaos maintenance of Iraq as one political unit is of in their neighbouring country or not? You have paramount importance to stability in the region, no described the negative forces and I imagine that matter how diYcult it would be to maintain that. In includes Iran and Syria. I would suggest to you that my view, if it does not happen it will open a big the abilityofIran andSyriatobe negativeisfar greater Pandora’s box not a small one, a big one. So there is an than the ability of—I do not know—the Gulf Co- indirect influence of what happens in Iraq on other Operation Council in Jordan to be positive, which developments in the immediate region, I do not think presupposes there is such a thing as Arab unity which it matters in North Africa, for example, but it does I have never observed anywhere and neither have you. matter in the immediate vicinity. The failure to 3676421010 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:20:52 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG10

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29 March 2007 His Excellency Dr Oded Eran and Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher maintainoneIraqmayunleash forceswhich reallywill Chairman: Your Excellency, thank you very much throw the region into serious turmoil in the Gulf and indeed. You really have given us a great deal this elsewhere. Iran is a serious threat of a diVerent nature, morning and we feel we have kept you here longer ofcourse,and thereisa big debate whetherthe policies than we normally would because we have benefited that all of us are pursuing are aimed at the end of the so much from your wisdom and experience. nuclear programme or are we also looking at regime Certainly, what we have learnt this morning and change in Iran, and are the two necessarily connected taken as evidence will be of great value to us in and linked? This is a very important issue. Obviously preparing our report and I hope you feel it has been there are two timetables involved because if we do not worthwhile to have come over from Brussels for this know when the regime change is going to occur we meeting. We are also grateful to Mrs Lador-Fresher cannot wait for that because the nuclear clock is for all the work she did to make this morning ticking, and ticking very quickly, and so these are possible, but we are particularly grateful to you, your issues that we need to grapple with and are very Excellency, for having come and spoken to us in important. this way. 3676421011 Page Type [SE] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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WEDNESDAY 18 APRIL 2007

Present Anderson of Swansea, L Lea of Crondall, L Boyce, L Roper, L (Chairman) Crickhowell, L Swinfen, L Hannay of Chiswick, L Symons of Vernham Dean, B

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Dr Kim Howells, a Member of the House of Commons, Minister of State (Middle East), Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Mr David Quarrey, Deputy Director, Middle East and North Africa Department, FCO and Mr Michael Anderson, Head of the Middle East and North Africa Department, Department for International Development, examined.

Q319 Chairman: Minister, thank you very much the European Security and Defence Policy, the indeed for coming to see us this morning. As you ESDP. Quite what the right mix will be at any time know, we are coming to the end of an inquiry into the will depend on the situation on the ground, and it is European Union and the Middle East in which we something that we keep under constant review. It is have seen a number of people here in London, we frustrating that some of the programmes we were have been to Brussels and seen people both from the getting underway to support the Middle East Peace Commission, the Council Secretariat as well as Dr Process in 2005 we have not been able to take forward Solana. We really wanted, before we finished our in 2006 following Hamas’ entry into government. consideration of taking evidence, to talk to you to get That may now be changing, but we need first to see the view from the UK Government on certain of how the new government performs. Even with the these issues. We of course did see Mr Quarrey at an diYcult political situation facing the international earlier stage and we are glad that he and Mr community over the last year we have seen the EU Anderson from DFID are with you today. I do not make good use of the various tools available to it. know whether you have anything you would like to High Representative Solana and Special say as an initial statement or whether we should go Representative Otte continue to be active of course, straight into questions. both on the ground and in working closely with our Dr Howells: I could say something, My Lord Quartet partners; they are thoroughly engaged and I Chairman, if you would like me to. I do not mind certainly believe, My Lord Chairman, that they are going straight into questions if you are short of time. real assets for the EU. The Commission led the international response to Hamas’ election victory by Q320 Chairman: We are hoping to run until about setting up and running the Temporary International noon so we have got a certain amount of time, but if Mechanism (TIM) and this mechanism continues to you have something that you wanted to say initially ensure that support reaches the Palestinian people. I we would obviously be interested to hear it. am sure you know, My Lord Chairman, that in 2006 Dr Howells: Perhaps I can just say that I am certainly ƒ188 million of EU money went through the TIM very pleased to address the Committee today and I and approximately 900,000 persons will benefit very much welcome your interest in the EU’s role in directly from that. During 2006 the EU gave over the Middle East. It is a very serious inquiry, as you ƒ680 million to the Palestinians and this represents have just described it, and I am glad you have had the the largest ever contribution from the EU in a single opportunity to interview Javier Solana and Marc year. Also, the two ESDP missions—EU BAM Otte and various oYcials from the Foreign and Rafah, which monitors the border crossing between Commonwealth OYce and others, and I look Gaza and Egypt, and EU COPPS which supports the forward to reading your conclusions. It is certainly an Palestinian Civil Police—have proved to be eVective important Government objective to achieve a more instruments. Although the Rafah crossing point has active and influential role for the EU in the Middle not been open consistently it has provided the East, and in the EU we believe there is huge potential Palestinians with an international border crossing to further the cause of peace and security in the and with an important lifeline, and EU COPPS had region, especially the Middle East Peace Process. One to scale down their role in support of the civil police of the themes of my evidence today will certainly be due to the political and security situation, but they to argue that the EU has the greatest impact on the remain ready to continue to work once the EU is peace process when it is pursuing a balanced policy satisfied that their work will not strengthen those approach, working on both the political and practical whom we consider to be opposed to peace. If I can say tracks and when it is able to deploy the full range of finally, we are moving into a new phase with the foreign policy tools available to it, including through appointment of the National Unity Government 3676421011 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson which oVers opportunities for greater EU encourage people to feel more confident about engagement. There is an emerging consensus within money that might go towards the peace process in the EU supporting contact with those members of the general and towards supporting those elements in the government whose policies and actions reflect the National Unity Government that go along with the three Quartet principles. The EU is also set to extend Quartet’s three principles. the TIM for a further three months whilst continuing to judge the government on its words and deeds. The Q322 Chairman: For the European Union, given United Kingdom supports this policy and expects to that obviously there is still a good deal of American see it endorsed at the 23 April GAERC meeting. If initiative, where do you see the particular role that the National Unity Government acts responsibly we they might have in taking the process forward? hope to see the resumption of technical assistance, Dr Howells: I certainly sense amongst European Commission-led capacity building programme and Union members in general, talking to other foreign the revitalisation of the ESDP missions. I understand ministers of course, that they are equally encouraged that in today’s discussions here the focus is to be on by the Saudi initiative especially, and of course our the Middle East Peace Process but I also look current thrust, if I can describe it as that, is to try to forward, if the opportunity arises, to discussion on, work to build political momentum towards a for example, Syria and on Lebanon. In both cases, resumption of real talks between the parties—that My Lord Chairman, the EU’s role is important, has been right at the heart of our EU policy, both especially in Lebanon where the Armed Forces of EU through encouraging active and constructive Member States make up the bulk of the expanded engagement with the Quartet and through UNIFIL operations, which I had the opportunity to supporting the bilateral process between Prime visit just a few weeks ago. Minister Olmert and President Abbas. Secondly, we have been concentrating, and will continue to Q321 Chairman: Minister, thank you very much concentrate, on practical measures to build the indeed for that introduction. As you rightly say, a capacity of Palestinian institutions and of the number of points that you have covered are ones that economy of course. The examples are the most Y we will want to come back to in questions, and I obvious ones of trying to strengthen the o ce of the would really like to ask you if you would like to say president, financial support for President Abbas and a little more about the opportunities which are open support for the security forces as well as looking at to the European Union, both in view of the recent trying to build the capacity of long term governance developments in the Middle East Peace Process and, and providing economic support. Those will in particular, whether the renewal of the Arab peace continue to be the main thrusts. initiative has contributed to the prospects for peace and the possibility perhaps of two Quartets working Q323 Lord Crickhowell: Can I take you to the together. second question which you have been given some Dr Howells: I certainly think that the renaissance, if I notice about: the European Council in December could describe it as such, of Saudi diplomatic called for a “comprehensive settlement of the Arab- initiatives is a wonderful step forward. I know from Israeli conflict, including peace agreements with my experience recently in Lebanon that that has Syria and Lebanon . . .” How does the United galvanised political opinion there in a way which had Kingdom Government envisage this comprehensive not happened for quite a while, and certainly their approach to be pursued in practice? Is there a need to involvement in the Palestinian Israeli issue as well has prioritise or should all the diVerent negotiating tracks been a very major boost and very, very important and be dealt with at the same time? I am very glad to see that it has happened. At the Dr Howells: The EU and the UK have long supported same time, the Arab League seems to have a new resolving all the strands of the MEPP and the lease of life, Aba Moussa seems rejuvenated, he is Roadmap also calls for addressing the Syrian and very much involved in this now, and that is a very Lebanon tracks. The conflict last summer, which I important step forward too. I do not know what your had first hand experience of, highlighted the Lordships on the Committee feel, but I guess for a importance of addressing this issue. The EU of very long time many of us have been worried that the course is already engaged in Israel, Syria and neighbours have not played the kind of role that they Lebanon and in March of this year Javier Solana could have been playing, and this is a very visited both Lebanon and Syria and in Lebanon encouraging move forward. It is right to describe it as Javier Solana met Prime Minister Siniora and two Quartets; the new involvement might happen in Speaker Nabih Berri—as I did indeed. In Syria he a couple of ways. We know, for example, that many met with the Foreign Minister Moallem and Vice- of the Gulf States feel uneasy about pledging money President Sharaa and with President Assad and to the Palestinian states and the new leadership which delivered agreed EU messages. He said, specifically, the Saudis have given to the process might serve to that the EU recognised the need for a comprehensive 3676421011 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson peace including the return of the Golan, but he was impossible, you cannot do these things. Syria and the also clear that Syria’s policies in the region continued Syrian government continue to support the Hamas to be a cause for concern. We certainly support this rejectionists, for example, in Damascus and they are approach; we think there should be progress on all playing a very important role in ensuring that strands of the MEPP and that we should not make Hezbollah in Lebanon is re-armed, they continue to progress on one strand being contingent on progress have what I think is a pernicious influence inside on others. We think it is a reasonable assumption to Lebanon on Lebanese politics—literally a murderous make that that would give the spoilers every influence in some cases—and it is very diYcult to see opportunity to prevent any progress being made. how, in that tiny geographical area, these issues can easily be separated from each other and one issue dealt with quite separate from another. I do not think Q324 Lord Crickhowell: The last witness we had that is possible actually, but I do agree with him that before this Committee before the recess was Dr Eran, we have to emphasise some things above others and the Israeli Ambassador to the European Union, who we have to concentrate our resources on certain has been involved in this whole business probably issues rather than others and I would agree with him longer than anyone. He happened to be particularly that the most important of those issues is this strong on this particular subject and made it clear question of the relationship between Israel and the that he expressed his views very strongly to the Israeli Palestinian state. Government. He said that he was very much against trying to settle the Syrian issue at the same time as the central Palestinian issue. He produced an argument Q325 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: You have dealt so that it will take a very long time and set out the far with what I call the geographical sequences process which would be involved—the referendum between diVerent countries which are in dispute, but and the carrying of opinion—and essentially he was there is another aspect to the phrase “comprehensive saying that he did not believe that in Israel it would settlement” which relates to whether you deal with be possible for an Israeli government to be able to interim measures such as the Roadmap suggested, or successfully carry its people through two parallel whether you shift the emphasis onto final status processes, the Syrian one and the Palestinian one, at issues which are now called “political horizons” in a the same time. He said “In my view, the heart of the piece of diplomatic gobbledy-gook which appears to Israeli-Arab conflict is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict be generally shared around the circuit. Could you say and we should direct all our eVorts to solve this issue this shift away from the fairly sterile ground of the and then solve the issue with Syria and, therefore, we interim ideas that were in the Roadmap towards should delay for the time being the discussions or the seriously addressing final status issues is something negotiations with Syria.” Out of all the bits of which the British Government supports? evidence that he gave us in a very impressive and very Dr Howells: We are certainly very much in favour of informative session he was almost stronger on this having a picture of what we are aiming to achieve at subject than any other, so what is your reaction to the end of it, and that is something which has been those comments? lacking so far, so if this political horizon includes Dr Howells: Obviously that is a matter for the Israeli some notion of what Israel is going to look like and Government, but if you want my thoughts on this he what the Palestinian states are going to look like, I has probably got a very good point. The emphasis would have thought that that is a wholly constructive has got to be on the object of constructing two states approach because it is very diYcult—it has not that can live alongside each other; that has got to be always been British Government policy this—to the main theme of it. Curiously, when I have been in negotiate the minutiae of these interim stages if you Israel—I have not been to Syria though I would very cannot see what it is you are aiming for here. It is not much like to go there—and certainly when I have rocket science, but it seems to me to be a very, very been in Lebanon I have had the impression that the important feature of any negotiations that there Israelis consider the negotiations with the Syrians to ought to be a clear picture, for example, of how the be rather easier than the negotiations with the Israelis and how the Palestinians and how everybody Palestinians, and the Golan Heights—I am sure that else sees the question of Jerusalem. In Lebanon, for your Lordships have been on the Golan Heights— example, Prime Minister Siniora hardly wanted to and the Shebaa farms, tracts of land in Lebanon, speak about anything other than the Shebaa farms these are very obvious and concrete symbols of this and when I stood on a crusader castle and looked conflict and if there is a deal on land for peace it is a towards the Golan Heights, somebody had to point relatively simple thing to do, but that is not the out to me very, very carefully where exactly the situation with the Palestinians, it is a much more Shebaa farms were because they were a bit of a stony diYcult one. The idea that it is possible simply to slope that led to the Golan Heights; I thought what is solve one issue first and then in a kind of incremental all the fuss about. Unless you have got that image in way move on to Syria or move on to Libya—it is your mind of exactly what you would like to see come 3676421011 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson out of this in the end, it is very diYcult to try to States. So we have to examine this very carefully, we negotiate those interim features before them. It is a certainly have to be prepared to engage where we shift and it is quite an important one. think it is going to be constructive but we have to be very sensitive to the feelings of countries like Lebanon and some of the Gulf States too. Q326 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Minister, you are Chairman: Lady Symons was going to come back to absolutely right in saying that Syria has played and is Syria on a later question but in the circumstances, playing a very negative role in the region, Hezbollah, seeing how far we have gone into it, it might be Hamas and also in Iraq. The question is whether we appropriate to ask the question now. have really tested the potential of Syria doing rather more positive things. There has been a recent article by President Clinton’s former special adviser, Mr Q327 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: The split Malik, which is headed “US isolation of Damascus in the Arab world over Syria is very much something rests on a misunderstanding of Syria’s position in the that stems from last year in particular, not so much Middle East” and suggests that rigidly rebuYng because of Lebanon—although they are uneasy, Syria is a mistake fast on its way to becoming a although Sunni interference in Lebanon is hardly missed opportunity. Is the European Union, in your new, it has been going on for a very long time—but judgment, prepared to take a more open view of because of that speech that Bashir Assad made which Syria? Certainly, they feel upset that the Roadmap got so much attention, understandably. Even so, did not give greater priority, as you know, to the would you not say, Minister, that in the Arab world Syrian track; do you feel that perhaps we have missed they want Syria back as one of them, playing an a trick and at least the European Union should be active part in the Arab League and they absolutely more ready to test the willingness of Syria to play a recognise that there is no possibility of a solution more positive role? under the Middle East Peace Process without Syria Dr Howells: I certainly think that Javier Solana’s visit being part of that? Having said all of that, Minister, to Damascus was very important, as was Sir Nigel I was interested in what you said about not having Sheinwald’s visit—they sent out very clear messages, been to Syria yourself and we all understand the with not an entirely popular reaction, by the way, reasons for that, but within the Syrian hierarchy it is V throughout the Middle East, as you probably know. a very split hierarchy, there are many di erent facets There are governments and countries who feel deeply to it, and is it not possible to have more engagement uneasy about Syria who are Syria’s neighbours, and now? There is a ripe moment now to try to encourage that is something which we have to take into account, those within the Syrian hierarchy who are really but I do not think there has been reluctance within identifiable as the reformers; without that the EU to try to generate more contacts with Syria. encouragement then falling further and further into The problem—and it is a very serious problem— exactly the sort of destructive policies you describe arises not necessarily from Syria’s relationship for seems to me to be a real possibility. example with Baghdad; I am very glad to see that that Dr Howells: Yes, My Lord Chairman, Lady Symons has warmed up a good deal, they seem to be paying is absolutely right, we have got to be much more more attention to their own eastern frontier and I assiduous about the way in which we try to know that the Syrians themselves from reports that understand and interpret the significance of the we get back from our ambassador are very worried internal divisions within Syria. Having said that, I do about jihadists who go to Syria in order to try and get not want to sound as if I am one of these people who to Iraq and then remain in Syria because they do not believe that it is possible to create greater divisions particularly like the Syrian government either; that is within the Syrian Government or within Syrian something which we certainly ought to have some society, I do not believe that; we have seen some of discussion with the Syrians about. I know from my the results of the neocon approach which says just own discussions with Javier Solana that he is very throw it in and see what comes out at the end—that much aware of that and those tensions, but if you is the last thing we want as far as Syria is concerned. come at it from the point of view of Lebanon—I went to Lebanon on my last visit a few weeks ago—there Q328 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: is evidence that we have got to have much greater Absolutely. engagement with the Syrians but I came away, I have Dr Howells: My Lord Chairman, Lady Symons is to admit to the Committee, reluctant to intensify that absolutely right about a general feeling within the because of the games that they are playing within Middle East that Syria must come back into the fold; Lebanon, they are very destructive and so they have it has a kind of iconic significance for the Syrian to be handled very, very carefully. Above all the EU, people and Syria itself which we discount at our peril. just like the British Government, has to care a great Yes, it is very important that we try to understand deal about the way in which the Arab neighbours feel what is going on inside Syria but that we recognise about Syria too, especially Saudi Arabia and the Gulf also that there is a government there that has to be 3676421011 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson dealt with as a government. I hear stories, for Dr Howells: My Lord Chairman, I certainly think example, about Iran, that there are big political that Lord Hannay has put his finger on some very divisions within Iran and so on—maybe there are, I important questions here. Could I say as a top line, if know there are at least 150,000 probably 200,000 you like, that we do not believe that the Quartet’s Iranians now living in Dubai and they are very clever. three principles—renunciation of violence, They are not the North Koreans, they are very clever recognition of Israel and acceptance of previous and very experienced traders and they know very well agreements—should be interpreted flexibly, and I that if there are tensions within Iran, if the will try to deal with the recognition issue in a international community and the UN decide they are moment. These three principles represent a going to impose really tough sanctions on Iran, they consensus and indeed they are deeply-held principles want to be able to trade from somewhere else. of the international community and very reluctantly should we begin to meddle with that. We believe it is right that all parties should understand what our Q329 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Do you principles are; we have to have them and they are very see the possibility of a follow-up visit to Nigel important, and we have certainly said, Lord Hannay, Sheinwald’s? that we will judge the National Unity Government by Dr Howells: What, me go there? its actions and we need to be able to see just how far they have moved towards the three principles. I will Q330 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: If not ask David to come in in a moment to comment if he you, Minister, somebody of equally important status. senses that there has been an incremental move It was a very important point that Sir Nigel went and within the terms of Jack Straw’s description where he I just wondered whether there is a feeling that there said “We want to see what the direction of travel is.” might be some opportunity for follow-up. People have tried to come up with alternative Dr Howells: I certainly feel we should be following up phrases, but it is the best one I have heard of so far and I know that there are discussions taking place and it is vague enough in diplomatic terms to give us about how best to do this. The important thing, a bit of leeway. Perhaps David could come in in a especially from this hearing’s point of view, is that the moment and just expand on that a little. As far as the EU is very interested in strengthening contacts with question of recognition is concerned, there are very Damascus and I am pretty sure that Javier Solana few diplomatic precedents for this, it is a very, very will be back there sooner rather than later. diYcult one, but there are some very simple rules that could be applied and are being applied. When President Ahmadinejad says he wants to “wipe Israel Q331 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Minister, the V Quartet stated in March that it will judge the o the face of the map”, that is a pretty clear National Unity Government on the basis not only of expression. We found immediately after he said that its composition and platform, but also its actions. I that we had Tehran’s ambassador to this country wonder whether you can comment on what degree of saying “We must not take that literally”, but it flexibility you think should be displayed in sounds pretty literal to me actually and if the interpreting the three principles. We have been struck leadership of Hamas continues to make speeches in in the evidence we have had that whereas two of the which they, for example, say that it is a perfectly principles are relatively straightforward to apply, the defensible thing for a suicide bomber to blow one that relates to recognition is far from themselves up in Eilat and kill innocent people and straightforward to apply because it seems to muddle that that is okay because we do not recognise this up two things, one of which is the de facto recognition state and we want to see the destruction of this state, that Israel exists and has to be dealt with, and the that is pretty clear as well. The moment we start other is the diplomat-speak word “recognition” modifying our position on what is a pretty simple which is something that one state does to another statement—although I quite agree with you that it is state. The Palestinian Authority is not a “state” and immensely diYcult in technical and diplomatic the Hamas government is certainly not a state. I terms—we are in trouble. David, do you want to say wonder whether you could comment on the degree of something on this? flexibility that there might be as we move ahead and, Mr Quarrey: As the Minister says we essentially make secondly, could you comment also on how much of a a distinction between the principles to which we hold handicap it is if the only form of co-operation with firm, on which we are very clear and on which we do the Palestinian Authority government can be with not compromise, but on the other hand we are individual ministers and not with the government as realistic about the extent and pace to which Hamas a whole? Is this a real handicap in the process of might move towards those principles and that is what capacity building and laying the foundations for a we are in the phase of doing at the moment, assessing viable Palestinian state, or can it really be done in this how far they have moved. It is clear that the Mecca rather extraordinary hand-to-mouth way? agreement represented a certain degree of movement 3676421011 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson on those principles and we are now trying to assess are quite important to the accountability as well as to how the National Unity Government and how the the capability. It is the case, however, that working Hamas elements within the government are engaged directly with the line ministries, developing their and what their behaviour now in government says capability, we are severely constrained and it would about how much further if at all they have moved. be impossible to achieve the development of the full For example, on the renunciation of violence there Palestinian State of the kind which is fit for purpose are discussions underway about extending the for dealing with the objectives of the Middle East ceasefire from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank—if Peace Process—it will be impossible to achieve that that were to happen that would clearly be a positive unless we are able to work fully with the line step forward. If the government as a whole were to ministries, and that is not possible at the moment. act to stop Kassam firing into Israel that would be a significant step forward. Coming back to the Arab peace initiative, the fact that the government of Q333 Lord Crickhowell: Can I pursue that question which Hamas was a part reaYrmed its commitment of talking to some ministers but not to others, and of to the Arab peace initiative, that was another helpful course I understand the importance of sticking to the step on the point about the acceptance of previous three principles and the lack of flexibility and so on, agreements. That is the phase we are in at the but at meetings we had both with representatives of moment; the government has not had long in oYce so the Commission and the Council in Brussels I came far so it is diYcult to make very definitive judgments, in towards the end of each meeting and said that I felt but we will continue to make that assessment about very uncomfortable about some of the answers and the extent to which there is or is not movement that perhaps this is because you and I come from a background of collective responsibility and it is quite towards the principles, but on the principles Y themselves we stay firm. di cult to be happy about a situation where an election is held, we do not much like the result and we say we have talked to one group of ministers, not the Q332 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: The second half of dominant, largest group in that government, but not the question has not yet been dealt with, which is the the others. There are two possibilities: either it degree to which dealing in only a partial way with actually encourages and presses Hamas to take a ministers is a serious handicap to the kind of more reasonable view, or it could have the opposite capacity-building that I believe everyone wishes to eVect and encourage further factions and divisions. support. Mr Cooper, speaking for the Council at our Dr Howells: It is certainly a handicap, there is no meetings, responded to the point I was making by question about that, and it does not make it any saying that firstly he thought “we should be a little easier. I will ask Michael to come in in a moment on careful about saying we are prepared to do business this question of capacity-building because DFID has with one half of the government and not the other a very important role to play in it; nevertheless, the because we have, after all, been urging the political principles, those headline rules if you will, Palestinians for a National Unity Government. are the most important ones and we have got to find Personally I think it is probably a condition of the ways of dealing with the National Unity Government peace settlement at the end. First the Palestinians which allow some progress to be made. It is diYcult, need to get their act together and then negotiate with but a lot of other things about this situation are Israel and so on”. This is clearly a very diYcult diYcult and we have just got to make it work as best situation, but would you comment about how we we can. handle this sort of dual—we will talk to one lot if we Mr Anderson: In the recent White Paper in DFID we approve of particular ministers and think that they emphasised in supporting capacity-building are not representative of the previously rather governments which are capable, accountable and corrupt group we would actually direct money into responsive to the needs of their people. Of those three particular forces through those ministers. It is quite a dimensions the capability component is one that we diYcult concept to talk to some ministers and not to can make real progress on some aspects with the others. Can you comment? Palestinian Authority, in particular the oYce of the Dr Howells: It is a very diYcult concept, there is no president where we have just agreed as one of five question about it. There is no reason of course, there states along with the European Commission to is no compunction on us to talk to anyone, let alone provide them with $5 million in support to the oYce give ƒ680 million to anyone, and as Michael has just of the president, building up President Abbas’s said one of the big problems we have got at the capacity to begin work, along with other donors, in moment is accountability. I had not been to supporting the development of some of the Ramallah for a very long time before 2005, and on institutions other than the line ministries. It is not the my way there I was told these dreadful stories about case that we are doing nothing, we are making how poor Ramallah had become, how rundown the important advances, and some of those institutions economy was, and when I got to Ramallah I saw a 3676421011 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson city ringed with very, very attractive, brand new Mr Anderson: If I could give a brief comparison, it is luxury apartments. When I asked where the money possible to overstate how unique this relationship is had come from to build these and who they belonged with the PA in that it is a matter of routine practice to, they belonged—not to put too fine a point on it— in British aid programmes for us to select which to very corrupt members of Fatah who had ministers we work with and to which ministries we channelled that aid money into their own pockets. will give aid. There are ministers in many, many We should never forget that, so Michael’s point is a governments we work with where whose probity is very important one in that respect. I would find it not suYciently strong or of which we are not very diYcult, My Lord Chairman, as you would have suYciently reassured that we are willing to trust them when you represented Pembroke, to go down into the with UK assistance. In fact, therefore, it is actually a high street of Pontypridd and say “We are giving matter of routine that we work with some ministries money to a political party that encourages suicide and not others depending upon their political bombers.” I do not know how I could do that positions and that is something which we are well actually; I would not do it and I would not like to be accustomed to handling. part of a government that does it. It is a diYcult one, Chairman: That is a very helpful and interesting there is no easy answer to it, but the participation of answer, if I may say so, and it takes up Lord the EU has come to not a bad compromise in a very Swinfen’s question, in which case we could perhaps diYcult situation, and it is about the best that I can on to Lady Symons. see at the moment. You began by asking whether or V not it has had any e ect on Hamas, has it pushed Q335 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I found them? I think in some ways it has; the last time I that very helpful, and I believe that is an EU view too spoke to President Abbas he told me that he thought in the way that they deal with it. My Lord Chairman, there were three Hamas’s now—there was a kind of I found Mr Quarrey’s answer a moment or two ago Provisional IRA Hamas that was out of control in about the three principles very helpful, and I Gaza, there was a Hamas which had essentially been absolutely accept the point about the three principles elected and was beginning to understand that there that the Minister has made. I thought it was an would have to be some real politicking if it is to do interesting extension of that in what Mr Quarrey was something for the people who had elected it, and able to tell us about the extent of the ceasefire and it there was a very hard line of rejectionist Hamas in does bring us back to the whole question about Damascus. There is some truth in that, so this kind of engagement versus isolation as a way of being able to cyclical disintegration of Palestinian politics get through any of these sorts of disputes. Minister, continues, but Hamas is as subject to it as anyone you made a point a moment or two ago about there else is. being three Hamas’s now and one might say that at various stages there were three IRAs and that by talking to those who were on the direction of travel Q334 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Minister, would that was towards finding a compromise solution, that you confirm that the policy is to deal with any was a way through to try to find some of these very individual within the National Unity Government, diYcult solutions of course. I just wonder whether whatever their label, any individual who accepts the this whole question of engagement now cannot be Quartet principles? addressed rather more positively. We know the Dr Howells: Yes, they do not have to be Fatah at all Israelis are terribly opposed to engagement with the and there are independents in there. My Lord National Unity Government, that has been very clear Chairman, if I could just draw a parallel for a and we recognise that diYculty, but I am just moment with Lebanon, the first time I went to wondering from the point of view of the British Lebanon in the middle of the war in July, it was only Government whether there is not now more of an when I came away from Lebanon that I discovered opportunity to recognise those who are amongst the that I may have been talking to somebody from Hamas members of the government and to talk to Hezbollah, who was a minister at that time and them in the way that engagement did start—albeit certainly did not go under the name of Hezbollah. there were diVerent problems, diVerent conflicts— Everybody said to me later that he was very close to with the IRA and whether that is not something that Hezbollah, this guy. One can apologise for that but we can positively now look forward to. on the other hand it can be very useful as well, of Dr Howells: It is a very, very good parallel. There are course, if people choose—these are very intelligent great diVerences but there are many similarities. Last people, they do this very carefully—overtly not to night I was talking to some friends of mine who have identify themselves with the party but nevertheless been working in South Armagh who tell me that they might have their finger on the pulse in this still have not cleared up some of the more lunatic community, then of course we should be talking to fringes of the Republican Army down there and who them if they are adhering to these principles. still are completely rejectionist. They reject the Good 3676421011 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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Friday agreement, they reject the ceasefire and, Dr Howells: But it has to be a reciprocal process. At really, are held in this position by a combination of the moment in Sri Lanka we cannot engage in these fear of mainstream IRA reprisals and the British discussions because there is not a ceasefire and Army and the police. That is after a very, very long although there is a kind of ceasefire in Palestine, we time, that is after 10 years of a ceasefire and I think need to see those signs before we can engage with that is one thing we should certainly recognise. The those people. I am sure that there are members of second thing—and the bit I do not understand—is we Hamas who would very much like to, perhaps not know that certainly by the mid-1980s there were signs break cover but would certainly like to say “Look, we that the people in Northern Ireland were just fed up, know what the political reality is and we would like they were fed up of killing, they were fed up of to talk.” We have some of our very best diplomats terrorism and they wanted a diVerent future. I cannot operating in that area and, believe me, if there are tell you whether there is a sense of that in Gaza and signs that there is, as Jack Straw called it, that shift in the West Bank because I really do not know and the the direction of travel we will be the first to recognise diVerence is that some very, very prominent IRA it and we will take action consequently. members made it very clear quite early on that they did want to talk and there were some pretty Q337 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: And we extraordinary things that went on at that time, and I will not wait for absolute perfection. am sure there will be somebody who will write a book Dr Howells: No, we never have done, we have never about it, perhaps a former permanent secretary of the been very good at waiting for absolute perfection. Y Home O ce and we will hear some of these secrets, I Mr Quarrey: Could I just add three quick points? am sure, in the future, about safe houses, secret First of all, at the moment almost our entire discussions taking place and people being brought engagement with the Palestinian Authority is of out of prison to take part in discussions. The reason course on the Alan Johnston case so we do not I know about this is because we have been trying to actually have business as usual at the moment. use the expertise of Northern Ireland to look at trying Secondly, the Palestinian reaction to the Alan to get the LTTE and the Sinhalese government in Sri Johnston case says something about the Minister’s Lanka to talk to each other to see if we can open up point a moment ago about attitudes to violence in some of those back avenues and try to get them Palestinian society and the disgust and anger that discussing in a way which they are not doing at the people from their own society have perpetrated this moment. Whether we could do that in Palestine I do act. That is consistent with the popular pressure that not know, because what you are asking also begs there was to form a National Unity Government and another question which is the bit I am most frustrated for the Palestinians to come together in a way that about really. I know, because my closest friend in allowed the international community to engage, so Parliament, Paul Murphy, was the best Secretary of there are some possible positive trends there. My State for Northern Ireland we ever had, and Paul third point would just be that it is very early days with now chairs what we call the spooks committee. I have the new National Unity Government and if we make talked to him a great deal about this and when he clear that our position is about engaging with people went to Sri Lanka he went with a very experienced whose behaviour, whose words and actions reflect the Y Northern Ireland o cial called Chris McCabe; when Quartet principles, not whether they are a member of he went there he identified immediately the big Hamas or not, we just need a little bit of time to see problem, which is that you can try and build a peace how this government starts, what its behaviour is and process but if the negotiations only take place once what its actions are. every six months or every year in Geneva you are not going to get very far, and if we learnt anything from Northern Ireland it is that you have got to have Q338 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Would you not everybody around the table, you have got to have all agree, Minister, that what you have just said the issues on the table and you keep at it, you keep at demonstrates one of the great weaknesses of previous it and keep at it. We are not doing that in Palestine. attempts to move the Middle East Peace Process forward, namely that the process is not immune to acts of violence by people outside the process. Would Q336 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: But you you accept the distinction between acts of violence by have to do the legwork in between, you have to know people within the process, which is totally to whom you can talk and how you build those unacceptable, and acts of violence by people outside relationships which means that when you do get the process, extremists on either side, whether it is everybody around the table you move forward, murdering Prime Minister Rabin or whether it is because nobody ever solved anything through suicide bombers from Islamic jihad? Really, if we are isolation. In the end we will be talking to Hamas; in to have the MEPP resuming, you surely have to find the end that is bound to happen, there will be no some way in which we can get the Israelis and the peace without that discussion. Palestinians and the Arabs who support the 3676421011 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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Palestinians to accept that this is a continuous do it through continuing to articulate our own process and one that cannot be interrupted by people version of a political horizon, a two state solution whose sole interest is in fact destroying the process? with a secure Israel and peace and security for a Dr Howells: Yes, I absolutely agree with that. It is viable Palestinian state; we can do it by working to easy for me to say it of course, it is far more diYcult build the capacity of Palestinian institutions so that, to construct that kind of mechanism and that kind of as Michael described it, the Palestinians can be a process but that is what we have got to have, I am credible partner for peace and we can do it by convinced of it. continuing to maintain pressure on both parties, Mr Quarrey: For example, the case with the most including through the Quartet, to implement their recent suicide bombing in Eilat in Israel; if a Hamas commitments under the Roadmap and other government spokesman says that is a legitimate act of agreements including that on movement and access, resistance then it is unacceptable. which we have not had a chance to talk about so far Chairman: Lord Lea, to some extent we have covered in this session. Encouraging both sides to deliver on the question you were going to take but would you these commitments, I believe, will help to build like to raise it? confidence and to improve the climate of talks and through an active EU role in the Quartet these are achievable aims, we can do this. It certainly does not Q339 Lord Lea of Crondall: I would like to put this seem realistic to expect the parties to move question in a particular way because we are tending immediately to final status talks, but we judge that it to talk a little bit about the MEPP without the role of will be helpful for them to continue and hopefully the EU being central to it, and our report is about the develop their dialogue about the political horizon, role of the EU. I would like to know on some of the but this has got to be a judgment for the parties V things that have been said are there any di erences in themselves. My Lord Lea is quite right to say that this, for example, between Britain, France, Germany there are diVerences of attitude, within the EU, there or anybody else. What are the internal politics of the is no question about it, and it would be silly of us to EU decision-making process? Recently we saw try to disguise that, but I sense that that candid Condoleezza Rice in Mecca, with both sides, saying agenda that I have described there is holding within that she would be available to discuss the political Europe; there will be tensions—there will be creative horizon; how is the EU fitting into this? The Quartet tensions and less creative tensions—but this gives us seems to work when the Americans want it to work; a programme of work and an agenda to stick to, when the Americans want to do their own thing they which I think is a perfectly valid one and is a very do their own thing, but I take that we are not doing useful one. our own thing because, obviously, that is not what ostensibly we have signed up to. The Israelis often say we really want the Americans to do the politics, we Q340 Lord Lea of Crondall: Just to characterise it want Europe to give the Palestinians the money and this way, you are saying that the US is in the lead, the so on. The Israeli Ambassador to the European rest of the Quartet are happy that the US is in the Union actually said that explicitly, that that was the lead, the Arab League is happy that the US is in the division of labour. That is not a view of the division lead and the idea that somehow the Arabs are of labour shared by the Arab League, they say we wanting the EU to play a more prominent role, which want the EU to play a more prominent political role. is code for saying having its own agenda which does Could you comment on that sort of contradiction? not necessarily have to be the same as the American Dr Howells: If I could preface that for a moment just agenda, that is not the position that we are now by saying that we certainly welcome Prime Minister advocating. Olmert and President Abbas’s commitment to Dr Howells: From talking to Aba Moussa, for Secretary of State Rice. They meet every two weeks, example, and others, it is quite clear that they want the last meeting took place last Sunday on 15 April coherence, they want to know what the position is, I and Olmert and Abbas have agreed to discuss do not think they want to see Europe intervening in humanitarian and security issues as well as looking in some way that is going to disrupt this applecart that particular at what Lord Hannay referred to, this new I have just tried to describe, but they are savvy V cliche´ of “political horizon” issues and what the enough to know that there are di erences in make-up of a future Palestinian state would look like. approach. The EU, as you imply, My Lord Chairman, will not directly be involved in this process but the EU can Q341 Lord Lea of Crondall: Can you give us an support it in a number of ways and I will try and run example of a diVerence of approach? through some of them. We could certainly support it Dr Howells: I will ask David to because he through consistent political support for direct talks occasionally dons his watching anorak and he knows between the parties and our political support for this stuV backwards, but there are diVerences in whatever progress they are able to achieve. We can approach between, say, Spain and most of the 3676421011 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson members of the EU at the moment and some other Dr Howells: That is a very important question countries too. because it involves what Israel does in response. I am Mr Quarrey: Just on the Quartet point, first of all, if absolutely confident that the EU will continue to you look back, My Lord Chairman, over the last year maintain pressure on both parties, including through the EU has within the Quartet encouraged more the Quartet, to implement their commitments under regular meetings of the Quartet and we have achieved the Roadmap and other agreements including, for that. The EU has encouraged the idea of meetings example, the 2005 agreement on movement and between the Quartet and regional parties, that is access which is a very important feature of this. The now eVectively Quartet policy. The EU has EU continues to press the Israelis on issues like also championed the Temporary International settlements and the route that the security barrier Mechanism as a vehicle for maintaining takes and so on, and on issues relating to Jerusalem, humanitarian and other support to the Palestinians, and it has called on Israel to ensure that its actions are that is a continuing part of Quartet policy, so it would not disproportionate or in contradiction to be unfair to say that the EU merely signs up to international humanitarian law. We are also clear whatever line the US wants to take in the Quartet. On with the Palestinians about the need to deliver the second point about divisions within the EU or security, both for their own people and for Israel, and diVerences within the EU, yes there are diVerences as to respect the Quartet’s three principles, so the EU’s we, for example, discuss the possible conclusion from determination to hold both sides to their next week’s General AVairs Council, there are commitments has been very important I believe in diVerences of emphasis, for example, about whether ensuring that the EU’s voice on the MEPP is the EU should advocate moving very quickly to an understood and respected, but we need to ensure that international conference. Some Member States see we, as other international partners, are indeed seen to that as a point of principle, that we should have an be even-handed. It is a very important feature. The international conference, but we and a number of EU has gone through periods where it has enjoyed other Member States think the point of principle is to low standing in and influence over Israel because we find a successful peace process and a conference is a were seen not to be understanding both sides of the tool to achieve that; at the moment it is probably not issue, I will state that as baldly as that. It has been one a very eVective tool and so there is a diVerence there. of Javier Solana’s achievements to build a There is a diVerence of emphasis, perhaps, on the relationship of trust with the Israelis; it is one of our pace at which or the point at which the EU should objectives that the EU should have an increasingly signal that it will resume direct budgetary support to normal relationship with Israel for its own sake so the Palestinian Authority—our position is that there that our voice is respected by the Israelis as I believe is both a political aspect to that, we need to judge the it is by the Palestinians. PA government by its words and actions—and there is concern about whether that money will be well Q343 Lord Swinfen: The EU of course can put spent, and Michael’s point about accountability and pressure on the Palestinians by withdrawing aid, but transparency. Others feel that it is more important what pressure can they put on the Israelis? for the EU just to say we support the principles, but Dr Howells: We have to be very tough diplomatically as the Minister said these are debates within a pretty with the Israelis. I have stood up many times in the coherent overall framework, I do not think they are House and condemned the route that the barrier has V fundamental points of di erence about the objectives taken in some places, having seen it for myself, and that the EU wants to see or the point that we will only we have made it very clear that we disapprove get there if the EU can work with the US and Israel fundamentally of illegal settlement-building and as well as with the Palestinians. expansion. The international community can go a Chairman: Thank you. We are running a bit behind long way in making its views known like that; they do schedule going through our questions, but perhaps not make those views known well enough or we can move a bit faster on some of them. Lord forcefully enough, so there is a lot more that can be Swinfen, again your question has to some extent been done and Israel is very sensitive to those kinds of taken already but you may wish to come in. judgments that other countries make on these kinds of unilateral acts. Q342 Lord Swinfen: Thank you, My Lord Chairman. Dr Howells, do you think that the EU Q344 Lord Swinfen: You have not said what strategy which involves a mix of persuasion, physical pressure we can put on Israel that has incentives and conditionality, has been eVective in worked so far. influencing the parties to the conflict. Also, do you Dr Howells: I am a firm believer that this whole area think that the EU should take a firmer stance on the suVers enough pressures and threats of boycotts and issues of fulfilment of international commitments God knows what else at the moment, I do not think and respect for international law? that is going to help really. We have to try to work 3676421011 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson very hard diplomatically to try to get some sense of because there is also a cult of death there which is people wanting to talk to each other and of real promoting the notion that these suicide bombers— negotiations and discussions taking place rather than very young some of them, many of them female—are the threats, I do not see that at all. dying for the great Palestinian cause. This dreadful kind of destructive jihadism is something that we Q345 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Minister, we can would certainly have expected someone as civilised as show whether we are even-handed in perhaps two President Abbas to take much stronger action tests relating to two states of mind. One clearly is against. Israel allowing the expansion of settlements, which clearly would be more and more of a problem the Q347 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Are we funding it? more those settlements are expanding; secondly, in Mr Anderson: We and the European Commission looking at other matters within the Palestinian closely monitor the curriculum and the textbooks Parliament such as the issue of their textbooks in and we have standards; if the textbooks go beyond a relation to the Middle East and how they are certain point then we would cease to co-operate with educating the new generation—we have just had those schools which have extreme textbooks, through evidence from a body called Palestine Media Watch the TIM. If I may say by way of comparison, it is not which, looking at textbooks even published at the end unusual that donors find the textbooks that are being of last year by the PA Ministry of Higher Education, used are inconsistent with the political values which finds that the Palestinian textbooks make no attempt they would like to see. We have the same problem to educate for peace and co-existence and instead with Pakistan, India and elsewhere and there is a repeatedly rejected Israel’s right to exist, glorifying tension to be struck between freedom of speech and terror and teaching youngsters to hate Israel. Can giving support. If I may say, many of the Christian you indicate (1) in respect of the expanded schools in the United States have textbooks which settlements and (2) in respect of areas like educating say that Israel has a biblical right to exist and absorb the new generation of Palestinians, what we are Palestinian land, so it is not the case that the doing? Palestinians have a monopoly on extremist views in Dr Howells: My Lord Chairman, as Lord Anderson textbooks. has hinted we have been taking action on this. The Lord Anderson of Swansea: But they do not call for EU de-marched the Israeli government last week on the destruction of the people of Palestine. the question of settlements and we have made our Chairman: Because of where we are on the time, views, as I have tried to explain to Lord Swinfen, Minister, and I know you have very little flexibility very, very clear on this, it is extremely important. beyond midday I wonder if we could perhaps Wherever I go in the Middle East the question of postpone the questions on funding the Temporary illegal settlements or the route of the barrier is thrown International Mechanism and put those to Mr up constantly and there is a demand for even-handed Anderson if you have to leave before we have got to treatment on issues like this and we will continue to the end of the questions and move on, as we have make them, there is no room there for backing oV taken the question on Syria already, to a question such an issue, we have to be very, very clear about it from Lord Boyce on Iran. to the Israelis, that we disapprove fundamentally. It is very interesting, of course, that during the course of Q348 Lord Boyce: Minister, we have not talked what some people have called the unilateralist phase about Iran and I wonder if you would like to say of Israeli policy, Gaza for example was an area where whether you think that there is in theory a they were very firm with the settlers, they said you get constructive role that Iran could play in the process, east or north of that border or else you are on your but that in practice how likely is it that that role could own, they sent troops in there and it was a very, very be executed while we have the dispute about nuclear? Y di cult situation for them, so they are susceptible to Dr Howells: Iran could play a very constructive role that kind of pressure. and when we come to look at the way in which power has shifted in the Middle East, Iran is one of the new Q346 Lord Anderson of Swansea: The West Bank is powerful nations, there is no question about it, and more sensitive than Gaza. we know that they play a very active role through Dr Howells: It certainly is more sensitive and I am not Lebanon and through Damascus in Palestine as well. saying it is anything like as easy as Gaza either. The It is a complicated role, it is not an easy one to Israelis felt there was nothing in Gaza for them except understand, because of course the diVerences death and the activities of snipers and bombers so between Shia jihadists and Sunni jihadists have they were quite glad to get out. On the question of properly to be understood and it is not easy to education, on the other side, I could not agree more understand and it is certainly far more diYcult to that this is very disappointing. It is much worse come to conclusions about how solutions could be actually than you describe, My Lord Chairman, reached. After the events of last week and the week 3676421011 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson before, of the hostages being taken from the Gulf, they could actually do if we had this dialogue going what struck me about it was I drew some very simple which would actually help the process? conclusions from this. I thought to myself our sailors Dr Howells: Discussions could certainly take some of and marines were out there on a UN mandate to try the heat out of the hottest points in the Middle East to stop smuggling which is having a dreadful eVect on and they include south Lebanon and the Palestinian the people, not just of Iraq but especially the people rejectionists, there is no question about that. of Iraq, and that if Iran was absolutely serious about Internationally and certainly within the EU there is wanting to have as a neighbour a stable, prosperous an understanding that the Iranians at some stage are Iraq—which it could be quite easily, it could be going to have to discuss things far more seriously become one of the richest countries on earth—why than they have at the moment because they are do they not see it as being in their interests to work desperately short of investment capital. They are with us to stop this smuggling; whatever the co- going to be producing less oil next year than they ordinates were why would they do such a thing? That have produced this year, and that is a very serious is the diYcult one to understand about Iran. It is very issue for them. It is a pretty ramshackle hydrocarbon diYcult to understand who runs it and it is very industry that they have got there but they have got diYcult to understand who makes the decisions some very big reserves and they know they have got about local actions. It is even more diYcult to try to customers for it. There are probably some very clever understand the relationship between the Pakistani and influential people within Iran who care a great government and the inter-services intelligence agency deal about that, they are very concerned about that, and the way in which they view the Taleban. It is very so there are levers that can be pulled. As long as they diYcult thing to understand. Is it the theocracy, is it speak in the way that they do publicly about Israel, the revolutionary guards, is it President for example, it is very, very diYcult to see how you Ahmadinejad’s government that is calling the tune? I could have a constructive discussion. am not sure that any of us are entirely clear about Mr Quarrey: One of the fundamental points about who is calling the tune as far as the support for the Iran is that they are one of the handful of states that rejectionists in Damascus is concerned, as far as refuse to accept the basic premise of a two-state Palestine is concerned. It is a lot clearer in Lebanon solution and a fundamental approach to the peaceful because there there is a clear Shia link via Syria which settlement that the vast majority of the international supports a movement that ultimately wants to see the community thinks is the only way forward. We were destruction of Israel. talking earlier about the Arab Peace Initiative and the comprehensive peace will require very diYcult decisions from states like Saudi Arabia about Q349 Lord Boyce: There is no file lurking around recognition of Israel as part of the process of and waiting to be opened if we can get some dialogue achieving peace. As long as Iran remains in a position going with whoever it is you think one should have which encourages rejection of the very concept of dialogue with within the Iranian government? Israel, then that makes it even harder for those, as we Dr Howells: There has been dialogue of course, we would see it, responsible Middle Eastern states to get have had some pretty intense dialogue over the past into a process which could lead to a comprehensive fortnight and we have got a very good ambassador peace. As well as obviously being a strategic threat to and a very good team in Teheran. My Lord Triesman Israel they make life very diYcult for the key Arab performed heroically, as did the Foreign Secretary states as well so we need them to move away from herself, who I thought performed brilliantly, so there their fundamental opposition to the principle. is room for discussions. I want to repeat, My Lord Chairman, I do not see Iran as being like North Korea. This nuclear enrichment issue is a very, very Q351 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Do you not think, serious one and if you were to ask me do I make a given the evidence which seems very strong now, that judgment now on whether they want a bomb, yes, I the Arab countries are extremely averse to giving Iran think they want a bomb but they are not the North a direct say in the Middle East Peace Process and Koreans, they have a very diVerent history, they given Israel’s extreme dislike of giving Iran a say in behave very diVerently and that kind of Persian the Middle East Peace Process, we ought to be a little nationalism is something that we have to take very, bit careful about simply saying that because Iran is a very seriously, it is very diVerent from the attitude of very important country and because it could have a their neighbours on many issues. negative influence, therefore it has to be involved in the steps that we are now trying to take to revive the Middle East Peace Process. Do you not think some Q350 Lord Boyce: If I may press this, if we had some care has to be taken over that? dialogue going, what constructive role would we be in Dr Howells: Absolutely, that is a very well-made apart from actually detuning the rhetoric which warning actually and we have to see much clearer obviously would be important? What is there that signs that Iran is serious, as David has just told us, 3676421011 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson about modifying its position on this. There is, as you oYce could send us a written answer, on what will know better than I do, Lord Hannay, a powerful specifically could be done about Lebanon. If we distaste, especially in the government, for the policies could get in touch with your oYce and get a reply in that the Iranian government is following. That does writing it would be very helpful for our final not mean of course, as you know better than all of us, conclusions, but if you would allow us to maintain that they will necessarily break ranks and condemn our session with Mr Anderson on a couple of the Iran for those policies, that is a diVerent matter technical financing matters we would appreciate that altogether but it is well-made warning. as well; I gather he would be able to stay a little longer. Thank you very much indeed for giving us so Q352 Lord Lea of Crondall: While Dr Howells is still much time, it will be extremely useful to us when we here I would like to direct attention to question 12. come to prepare our final report. You said earlier, Minister, that you thought that the Dr Howells: Thank you very much. initiative of the Mecca talks and the Riyadh talks was Chairman: Mr Anderson, can I say that we are very very, very interesting. Would you say that parallel to pleased that you are able to be with us. We obviously what we discussed a few minutes ago about the are concentrating more on the European Union role bilateral Israel-Palestine which Condoleezza Rice in this field than our colleagues in the House of clearly has got a major role in, there is scope now Commons did when they did their very important there is an “Arab Quartet”—we have it in inverted recent report dealing with aspects which touched commas here—that there is some sort of symmetry. more directly with your department. I would like to Would you comment on the degree to which there take just a couple of questions, the first one from may be use thinking about a dialogue between the Lord Anderson on Palestine Finance Minister, Arab Quartet and what you might call the Western or Fayyad. other Quartet? I used a musical analogy when we were in Brussels saying that that would make an octet Q354 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Mr Anderson, we and how would that play a tune which would sound had the recent Oxfam report on the real distress harmonious, but semi-seriously would there be value among the people who live in the Palestine Authority, at some stage in getting the two Quartets together? we had the pressures from Mr Fayyad, the Dr Howells: Yes, Secretary Rice, for example, is internationally respected finance minister of the meeting regularly with the Arab Quartet and of Authority for the EU and other international donors course King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia played a key to provide close to ƒ1 billion in financial support in role in the Mecca agreement which secured the 2007. The question is, in your judgment how should National Unity Government and helped, at least the European Union respond? What sort of temporarily, to end intra-Palestinian violence which conditions in your judgment should be the priority, is another important thing that we have not had a conditions for example in terms of transparency, chance to talk about. I know that the Arab League because we know the poor track record of the PA in summit in Riyadh agreed not only to provide some respect of corruption in the past, although there are funding, which is very welcome, of $55 million a new mechanisms in place. What sort of conditions month and we would like to see that happen, but to should there be in terms of how the money is actually re-endorse the 2002 Arab Peace initiative and to spent, and I refer again to questions like the establish a follow-up committee. I believe, David, the textbooks which we had earlier. What are the key follow-up committee is beginning today. conditions which in your judgment are a pre-requisite Mr Quarrey: Yes, in Cairo. to responding favourably to the finance minister’s Dr Howells: It is taking shape, therefore, as you request? described, my Lord. Solana and the German Mr Anderson: I preface my comments with some Presidency of the EU, Member States including the comments that may be of use to this Committee United Kingdom, are certainly in close contact with regarding the eVectiveness of the European regional states about the MEPP. Secretary Rice, as I Commission and the European Union more say, discusses our activity in the region constantly generally with its funding. It is worth noting that the with Solana and with EU ministers, including the European Commission is often criticised, often Foreign Secretary, so there is a framework emerging intensely, by us and others for being slow, ineVective, which is a very useful one. not accountable or transparent in its use of funding. The Temporary International Mechanism is really Q353 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed, quite a diVerent example of the Commission acting in Minister. I do know that you have some rather a way which was innovative, highly flexible, serious constraints on your time. We are extremely extraordinarily quick. And putting in place grateful that you have been able to give us so much mechanisms including these five checks that are done time this morning. There may be a couple of on every individual payment. They are mechanisms questions that we might want to send to you, if your of transparency and accountability which are really 3676421011 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson unparalleled in the aid world as far as I am aware. to a certain extent about the renewal of capacity- And I have a personal concern that that sort of building eVorts and I was interested to see a recent achievement by the European Commission in report that there had been an agreement reached particular is not on your list more broadly: and I between five European countries and the think it is something that the Commission deserves to Commission to give a specific number of millions of be recognised for. With that in mind we are pleased euros for administrative reforms to the Palestinian that the European Union has been put in the lead by Presidency, so there is a move back to moving Salam Fayyad and others to respond to the very directly to governmental institutions as far as this is intense fiscal constraints that he is under. The EU is concerned. I wonder whether you could tell us looking at how to respond to this request that Salam something about this and whether it could then be Fayyad has made and of course we know that the generalised into other ministries as well as the European Commission has very limited funds. In our Presidency. view it is of the utmost importance that the very Mr Anderson: The Presidency of course is not rigorous measures for monitoring the expenditure controlled by Hamas and so it is much easier for the are maintained. And, as I mentioned, the World EC and other donors to work directly with the Bank and the EC (and us and others) do monitor Presidency. That agreement, which was recently things like textbooks. There is a lot of spot-checking announced, has been in negotiation for many months that is done, a lot of what we call clear financial and it is politically sensitive for a number of reasons plumbing around the TIM and the mechanisms. We but we are very pleased that it was announced. We see are urging the EU to agree to an extension of the it as the kind of thing which we can continue to do, TIM, we are taking it up with them next Monday. not only with the Presidency but with the other institutions—the Central Elections Commission, the Q355 Lord Anderson of Swansea: For six months or judiciary, the Palestinian Monetary Authority—all a year? of which are places where the European Union is Mr Anderson: In the first instance, because it is involved in providing support. A great deal of temporary, there is a very strong feeling within the capacity-building can happen, therefore, but in terms Union that it should be temporary and a feeling that of the future of capacity-building we have been it should be replaced by a more durable mechanism. supportive of the Commission’s plans to put in We would be looking to end of June but it is likely to place an international mechanism to support be extended again, depending on developments. The Palestinians as an integrated approach to building EC will have some ability to respond to the need that governance, capacity-building, particularly to build Salam Fayyad has identified. There are, however, accountability and transparency which Lord two things I would say. One is that leaving aside the Anderson raised as a concern and is something in corruption issue, the fiscal position of the Palestinian which the European Commission has a particularly Authority is untenable: there are simply far too many strong role to play. The position at the moment is people on the payroll and Salam Fayyad and others that the proposal has not achieved universal support are aware of this. They realise that they need to move in the European Union and the feeling within the on it but they also recognise that taking people oV the Union at the moment is that we must wait for payroll may have security implications in terms of political developments to proceed and see what is the stability: people who are people of violence may nature of the National Unity Government—is it return to the street and so it has to be handled very going to move to comply with the principles—before delicately. The second issue is that the main fiscal there is a move forward in the international problem that the PA currently has is caused mechanisms for Palestinians. We are waiting for principally by the withholding of revenues by Israel some further movement on the political track, and we regularly urge Israel to resume payment of therefore, before that will be selected. those revenues as that is the easiest way in which to solve the problem. In that regard we are working Q357 Chairman: Mr Anderson, this is a question closely with the EU to urge Israel to resume its which we have not given you notice of but which I payments. wonder as you are here we might pursue. We did have evidence earlier from Dr Youngs about the problem Q356 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed, it about the coherence between aid which was provided was particularly useful what you had to say about the by the Commission and by Member States and I TIM. When we were in Brussels we saw people from wonder whether you would like to comment on the Commission who were involved and were briefed what can be done if one goes back to having on the TIM and I am sure this is something we will more assistance to ministries in a Palestinian want to come back to in our report, but your evidence administration to ensure that those problems do not was particularly important. We have already talked appear again. 3676421011 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:16 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG11

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18 April 2007 Dr Kim Howells, Mr David Quarrey and Mr Michael Anderson

Mr Anderson: The UK Government, the European Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I would endorse Commission and all the EU Member States have that entirely and when I was minister it was one of my signed up to the Paris Declaration on Aid frustrations that we could not flag more because EVectiveness of 2005 which is a set of standards on obviously there are national advantages to doing how aid should be co-ordinated and harmonised. We that. The point of principle is entirely right and it is are, frankly, frustrated with the lack of progress in one that is pretty well recognised. harmonising aid to the Palestinians compared to many of the programmes and many of the countries Q360 Lord Anderson of Swansea: We have talked where the UK provides assistance. Progress on about co-ordination within the European Union and harmonising and co-ordinating aid has been slow clearly added Norway as well. What about co- and we are working very hard indeed with the ordination with aid from other quarters, thinking Commission to try to ensure that aid is more co- particularly of that from the United States and that ordinated; it is very important for the eVectiveness of from the wider Arab world; is that satisfactory? aid that it is so. Frankly, most of the donors have Mr Anderson: We have been working very hard on co- domestic political incentives to have their own ordinating more closely with Arab donors and there flagged programmes and those are the incentives was a meeting on 4 February which the UK initiated which we are working against. The Commission has of the European donors plus the Arab donors to taken a strong leading role in trying to encourage establish better means of communication on more harmonised aid, hence their proposal for objectives and assistance for co-ordinating. It is an international mechanisms to support the area where we have not been good enough in the past Palestinians. We are very pleased with the kind of and we need to be better. leadership that the Commission has shown in this regard and indeed Solana has emphasised several Q361 Lord Anderson of Swansea: And the US? times. We are very pleased with the leadership that Mr Anderson: The US has the particular diYculty they have shown in supporting other Member States that before they co-ordinate with anyone else they to honour that Declaration. need to co-ordinate amongst themselves and, if I may be honest, that does tend to take up so much of their Q358 Lord Lea of Crondall: Are we not as energy and time that by the time they achieve some schizophrenic as everybody else? We want flagged internal co-ordination there is very little room for programmes right over Africa and everywhere. We manoeuvre left to co-ordinate with others. want Hilary Benn on the television to be cutting the Chairman: Mr Anderson, we are very grateful to have ribbon if it is our money going to that hospital or that had the chance to have this further session with you. road or something. You are implying a critique of As you know, this Committee is responsible not some other European countries wanting flagged merely for looking at the European Union’s foreign programmes but what about our own programmes? and defence policies but also to carry out general Mr Anderson: The UK Government has a policy on supervision of development policy, and of course last most of its aid programmes to not flag any of it. year when we were looking at Africa that was very much one of the focuses of our attention. I am sure Q359 Lord Lea of Crondall: So we are better than we will have a chance to return to these issues, other people, are we, on this? particularly after some of the recent proposals of Mr Anderson: In the first DFID White Paper it was Commissioner Michel on greater co-ordination, and stated as a policy that we would not flag our aid. We we will look forward to seeing you and your were recently evaluated by the OECD to be among colleagues on that occasion, but can I on this the best donors around the world at not flagging our occasion say how pleased we are with the evidence aid and for being co-ordinated with others. In the you have given, which I know is going to be of very Palestinian area more than 90% of our aid is spent in considerable value when we come to prepare our co-ordinated ways rather than through flags. report. Thank you very much indeed. 3676421012 Page Type [SO] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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THURSDAY 26 APRIL 2007

Present Anderson of Swansea, L Lea of Crondall, L Boyce, L Roper, L (Chairman) Crickhowell, L Swinfen, L Hamilton of Epsom, L Symons of Vernham Dean, B Hannay of Chiswick, L

Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes, a Member of the House, examined.

Q362 Chairman: Lord Patten, we do not have to tell have failed pretty badly in relation to the Middle you anything about the way in which committees like East. There is perhaps one principle cause for failure this work but we are very glad that you have been in the Middle East. While it is true that the United able to come to see us and that your current work States matters far more in the Middle East than with the International Crisis Committee in other anybody else, and while it is true that without the ways is certainly involving you very much in the American initiative we are unlikely to see a issues which we are considering. We are of course a rejuvenation of the Peace Process, there is more that sub-committee of the European Union Committee Europe can do independently than simply lash itself and therefore we are particularly concerned about to American policy, taking the view that we should the role the European Union has been and is playing not allow a piece of tissue paper to come between us in the problems in the Middle East and could in the and the United States. If you lash yourself to a future. We had a very useful session in Brussels a vacuum, your own policy becomes fairly negligible. month ago with Javier Solana and with people from Without totally downplaying some of the important the Commission and we were quite impressed by initiatives that Europe has taken, I think there is no some of the initiatives which are now being taken but issue which has produced more hand-wringing and there are also some frustrations because of the more anguished communique´s in Europe but not current restrictions on some forms of action. You do much in the way of the sort of actions one would have not want, I think, to make an opening statement, so liked to have seen. It is true that Europe has, for perhaps I might begin with a question. In view of the example, taken the principle responsibility for the current discussions on new political horizons, I road map. It is important to correct the history on wonder whether you have any suggestions as to the this. The road map did not emerge from Washington; steps the European Union should now take to the road map was produced principally by the Danish reinvigorate the Middle East Peace Process and how foreign ministry during the Danish presidency. We far you feel a road map still is the right approach or then took it to Washington, where the state whether we ought instead to be seeing what more department made one or two amendments, perfectly support could be given to the recent Arab initiative. reasonably. We then, I recall, went to the White Lord Patten of Barnes: There is a lot in that question. House to get the President’s endorsement and the Perhaps I can unparcel it and just begin by making President—and I always wondered about the one point. Critics of the European Union very often significance of the indefinite and articles at the time— walk on both sides of the street: they both argue that committed himself to “a” road map for the Middle Europe is not doing enough and when Europe does East. But it was within days of his appointment of try to get its act together that it has the pretensions of Elliot Abrams as his principal advisor on Israel and super-statehood. The truth is that Europe gets as Palestine, and we know Mr Abrams’ feelings on these much done collectively as individual nation states issues. So, from the outset, I think the main principle allow it to do. For example, we do have single policies of the road map was not likely to be implemented with supranational institutions in some areas, like unless there was more American involvement and trade, like single market and there are other areas, commitment than proved to be the case or unless foreign policy is the most obvious example, where we Europe raised the embarrassment bar for not attempt to cooperate and attempt to put together a pushing the road map hard enough. The great common, not a single, policy. I think that reflects the principle behind the road map was to forget about extent to which foreign and security policy go right to sequentialism, which had been the principle behind the heart of what it is to be a nation state. That has Oslo; the notion that you would work through inevitably impeded the development of the common confidence-building measures, that one party to the policy. After the humiliations in the early 1990s, we dispute would take certain action and then the other put together a common policy in the Balkans. I think party would respond. It was very much: “After you, we have failed badly in relation to Russia and we Yasser.” “After you Ariel.” The point about the road 3676421012 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes map was its proposed parallelism; that both parties all your interesting remarks, that the EU is not a should move down the road at the same speed to state, et cetera, et cetera, could you comment on the predetermined and timed rendezvous, and there has apparent contradiction. The Arab states generally never been pressure to do that. During the first Bush want Europe to be more active and yet it is pretty administration the argument was that Arafat was the settled Israeli policy to have no such thing, even problem; that you could not negotiate with the though they recognise that Mecca and Riyadh Palestinians because of Arafat. I was always meetings have been very constructive, maybe because prepared to accept that Arafat was a problem but not of the threat of Iran or whatever motives, and yet we the problem and I do despair of a situation in which still have this contradiction. We are going to ask you whoever has political responsibility in the Palestinian a lot of questions about Palestine in a minute but Authority is deemed to be somebody you cannot deal what about Israel and the Israel/America special with. We have, I hope not mortally, undermined Abu relationship. Will that block everything that Europe Mazen and undermined the present President, who tries to do? was deemed suYciently moderate to be invited to the Lord Patten of Barnes: It does not make it easier. White House but has not received the support that he There is a special relationship between Israel and the deserves, at least until the Mecca Agreement, which I United States and it works in both directions. I think hugely welcome. I fear that while the European it sometimes shows up in the sort of behaviour that Union has dashed about trying to be helpful, while it one friend should not demonstrate to another. I do has occasionally, for example on the war, taken not think, for example, that it was helpful for the US positions which are slightly diVerent from those of to egg on Israel in Lebanon against Hezbollah. I the United States, while it has played the principal think that was like encouraging a friend of yours who role in providing humanitarian assistance recently in has had too many drinks to drive home from the Palestine and before that in sustaining the Palestinian party. I think it has proved to be absolutely Authority, its policy has been too much in the last few disastrous. I know many Americans, Rich Armitage years to have another meeting of the Quartet. The and others who make exactly the same point today. I Quartet was described, I think not unreasonably, by do not think it is true that all Israelis regard the the Secretary-General of the Arab League as the Europeans as being beyond the pale. The European “Quartet sans trois” so there are lots of family photos Union, for example, played an important role in and there are lots of communique´s but I am afraid we funding the Geneva Peace Initiative, in providing have gone through a period during which the number some of the resources for that. One of the of fatalities in Israel and Palestine has far exceeded extraordinary disjunctures in Israel is that between the number in the last five or six years of President public opinion and the public’s attitude towards Clinton, which makes a policy which was initially political movement and political accommodations based on ABC (anything but Clinton) seem less than and the leadership of the main political parties. But it wholly successful. I think that is the background, is true, undoubtedly, that there are suspicions about which may be excessively critical of the European Europe in Israel, partly because of history and the Union but I know of no subject on which we talked holocaust; partly because of the occasional and more when I was a Commissioner and no subject on appalling manifestations of anti-Semitism in which we failed more spectacularly. Russia should Europe—in France, for example—in recent years; have been a lot easier, so the failure is perhaps even partly because Europe has not been prepared to go greater there. along with whatever Israel has done—for example, in Chairman: Thank you. the security area. I would have wished that our relationship had been better than that. I would wish Q363 Lord Lea of Crondall: Lord Patten, may I that our relationship with some of the Israeli leaders welcome you and thank you for that provoking in the last few years had been as constructive as our overview. You mentioned that following on the coat relationship with people like Yossi Beilin and other tails of America was not very satisfactory and I think leaders of the Peace Movement. It has to be said that, this is pretty much a part of our report, but I would while some Israeli politicians have been very rude and like to bring Israel into this. We not only had a senior critical about the European Union, they have wanted Israeli telling us that it was settled Israeli policy to very badly to be part of the Barcelona Process and the make sure the United States had the political lead and Euro-Med partnership, and they have wanted to ensure it stayed that way (in other words, the EU Europe to pay for some of the consequences of the was not going to have any comparable political role) occupation of Palestinian territories. If it was not for but at the same time the view in Brussels has begun to the European Union putting money into be quite sharply diVerent from that, along the lines humanitarian relief and into the attempts to sustain you have been stating when you saw Mr Solana. I the Palestinian Authority in the past, it would have think he used the phrase “one or two steps ahead” or been extremely expensive for Israel. When I used to a few steps ahead of the United States. Leaving aside be criticised for the support we were giving through 3676421012 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes

Salam Fayed to the Palestinian Authority, I was referred to the suVering of Palestinians, he was never criticised by an Israeli government minister obliged to make it clear very rapidly that he was not because they knew perfectly well what would happen really sympathising with Palestinians, that he if the European Union was not putting in the money. sympathised with everybody who suVered in the I think the situation is more mixed than it should be Middle East. There is a sort of political correctness but, plainly, it has been a diYculty that successive on these issues which is pretty worrying. But that Israeli governments have not wanted to listen to political correctness should not go unchallenged and Europe except on economic and trade issues. We had we should argue our corner, because I feel a very diYcult issue in the past involving Israel’s passionately that not to do so is unfair to Israel, as reluctance to declare products which were coming well as unfair to Palestine and other countries in the from the occupied territories when they were coming region. The situation goes from worse to much worse. into the European Union and I can tell you there was We now have probably the weakest government in an awful lot of diplomacy and negotiation about Israel in anybody’s recollection. The situation is on a that, so there are some issues on which Israel is a little knife-edge in the West Bank in Gaza with real more active than others. But so long as there are at problems of fragmentation politically between the least some members of the US administration two. If Hamas is driven back into the shadows, I do encouraging Israeli politicians to think that there is not think it will be possible to reach a settlement, but no political cost for vetoing any movement towards I hope we can come on to that later. I think it is a the Arabs, then I guess you are going to have people really worrying moment and a moment when it is in in the Israeli political system who will take the view everybody’s interest, not least the United States, to of Europe that they do. But it is not helpful. get much more involved in a hands-on way and try to get the Peace Process back on the road, because at the moment the Peace Process is a question of following Q364 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Do you funeral processions. think we should, therefore, as Europeans, (a) do more to bring more direct pressure on the Americans for more open disagreement and (b) should Q365 Lord Crickhowell: I am going to take you European politicians frankly get in more on the Hill promptly to where you want to go on the question to talk to American politicians? I find it staggering you said you wanted to come back on. It is not so how strong their opinions are and frankly how much my King Charles’s head, but it is now known completely ignorant they are about what is going on in the Committee as “the Crickhowell question”. on the ground. Is there more we could do with our You referred, (in the context of Arafat), of him being friends from the United States to try to influence seen as someone you could not talk to. I have been opinion? expressing my feelings of discomfort at the fact that Lord Patten of Barnes: Yes, I think there is, and I do after you have an election. There are some you not think it is anti-American. I think it is critical of cannot talk to. Admittedly you and I come from a the present administration but I do not think it is background based on the principle of collective anti-American to put forward our arguments when responsibility and so on which is very diVerent; but I we think America is getting it badly wrong. I think do find it quite diYcult to say you can deal with one America got it badly wrong over Lebanon— group of people but cannot deal with others. On the described, as I recall, by Condoleeza Rice as the birth other hand, it is clearly an issue about which Israel pangs of a new Middle East as the bombs rained feels very strongly: that you cannot talk to people down. I think they were stopped when she visited who do not accept the three basic principles. You Beirut, but, otherwise, people in Beirut were having a have expressed in public some views on this; and I pretty miserable time. I think it was wholly wrong think we all want to hear just how far you feel one can when President Bush encouraged the view that go; and what you see as the obstacles in going too far settlement activity represented facts on the ground to in talking to part of the administration about what which we would have to adjust ourselves, for the the whole of the administration ought to be Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary to give the concerned with. impression that nothing new had been said, that Lord Patten of Barnes: Perhaps I can put this issue in nothing had changed, when what was being said was a slightly broader context which touches on some of a fundamental shift in American policy of some my own experience. It is an exaggeration but not considerable consequence. I have never believed you much of one to say the world is full of governments, are likely to win an argument if you do not take part some of whose members used to be terrorists. We in it. Of course it is true that the American political know perfectly well that in area after area we have establishment has a view of the Middle East which is found ourselves obliged to swallow hard and deal very diVerent from that of the political establishment with people who spent part of their lives arguing that here or in Europe as a whole. My colleagues may violence was the best way of accomplishing political have noticed the other day that when Senator Obama objectives. I can remember us being pressed by the 3676421012 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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United States over getting involved with Sinn Fein the Palestinian Liberation Organisation? Yes, we IRA in order to get the peace process in Northern should. That seems to me to be a practical way of Ireland oV the ground. I found myself in 1998/1999 domesticating and politicising a movement which having to deal with Mr Adams and Mr will otherwise, I fear, drift oV into the shadows. What McGuinness—who was not called the butcher’s boy is the alternative? The alternative is that there will not because he worked at Dewhurst—and as a be any agreement between Palestine and Israel; democratic politician I found that pretty because, unless Hamas are part of an agreement, it is unattractive, but it was part of the settlement, just as not going to happen. I am afraid there would not dealing with Irgun and the Stern Gang in Israel were have been an agreement in Northern Ireland unless part of a political settlement. So I say to myself: Why Sinn Fein had been part of it. I repeat: as much as does anybody think we are going to get a peace in the sometimes it stuck in one’s gorge to do some of the Middle East if we do not talk with Hamas, with a things which were necessary in order to accomplish group which was radicalised, after its Muslim that, there is now peace in Northern Ireland. I think brotherhood past in Jordan and Egypt, by the we have to be more sensible and grown up in our occupation and by the Intifada. I have a second point relationship with Hamas. There are three other I want to make. Diplomacy is not about endlessly reasons why I think that is important, as well, to setting preconditions before you do anything. If you judge them by what they do not by these tests which set preconditions which do not allow you to talk to we apply. First of all, one of the tests we apply is not Iran, Syria, Hamas or Hezbollah, then good luck a test which could be passed by some of our moderate when it comes to trying to construct a foreign policy friends in the Middle East. Which of our friends in in the Middle East and its various problems. This is the Middle East recognises the State of Israel? Does not grown up behaviour and it is particularly Morocco? Does the Kingdom? There are members of worrying because it is the world’s only superpower Israeli cabinets who have not been prepared to which seems to have fallen into this mode of political recognise the State of Israel because they are religious activity. If we were prepared to talk to the Russians parties with all the hang-ups that the religious parties when they could have ended civilised life, any life as have about a Zionist state. So it is pretty ridiculous, we know it, in the 1970s and 1980s, I cannot for the I think, for us to find ourselves in that particular life of me think why we are not prepared to talk to posture. Secondly, I have dealt a good deal with people today without, by doing so, implying that we Salam Fayed, as Finance Minister a man of share their set of values or what they are prepared to legendary propriety. In the last year and a bit Europe do. Let me turn to Hamas and the new horizon has put more money into the Palestinian territories (I opened up by the Mecca Agreement. The Mecca think $140 million equivalent) through something Agreement, I think, at least for a time, ended the called the temporary international mechanism. I look immediate prospect of civil war in Palestine, in the forward to seeing what the auditors think about the West Bank and Gaza between Hamas and Fatah and way that money can be checked, because what is for it does give us an opportunity of re-establishing certain is that, if we go on simply trying to provide institutions of government in Palestine which are humanitarian assistance and relief through virtually non-existent at present. As far as dealing mechanisms outside the single treasury account with Hamas is concerned, we have gone along with a which is under Fayed’s control, we are going to find set of conditions which make it more diYcult for ourselves undermining the attempts to establish a them to ease around the corner from violence to decent government in Palestine rather than the politics rather than easier. What should we be asking reverse, and certainly undermining the most credible interlocutor we have in Palestine. For myself, I would of Hamas in order to do serious business with them? be looking now for ways in which we can hold the First, we should judge them by what happens on the National Unity Government to account for those ground. Will they renounce themselves in principle? practical things which I have mentioned and I would Will they, in principle, renounce any use of violence? be looking at ways in which we can work again with Very unlikely. Should we judge them on whether they Salam Fayed because, unless we do that, I fear that are trying with Fatah to stop rocket attacks by the institutions of government will continue to fray, Islamic Jihad on Israel? Yes, we should. Should we that we will be conniving at the creation of anarchy judge them by whether or not they secure the release in Palestine and that the money that goes into of Corporal Shalit? Yes, we should. Should we judge Palestine will be going in in suitcases from bits of the them by whether or not they are prepared to deal with Middle East that we are rather suspicious about. Israel on day-to-day issues? Of course we should. Should we regard it as imperative that they sign up to the President negotiating or trying to negotiate a final Q366 Lord Crickhowell: That is very comprehensive settlement agreement with Israel, and that such an answer. I have just one supplementary. When you agreement they would accept if it was endorsed by a talked about governments, you said governments democratic process, either a referendum or through include terrorists. You talked about Hamas in a 3676421012 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes collective way but I suspect there are diVerent sorts of with the National Unity Government, even though it Hamas. There are those who will always be terrorists is comprised of diYcult political influences and on the ground and there are some who are Hamas but individual members have their own problems, pretend they are something else. Do you see that something which I am told even happens there are distinctions and that it may be easier to talk occasionally when you have parties of governments to some than to others? of one party. Lord Patten of Barnes: Yes. Unfortunately, because of what American politicians would call the “diYculties of scheduling”, I missed an opportunity of meeting Q368 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Could I go back to the head of Hamas, Meshal, in Damascus. I saw the the question of the road map and final status issues. President of Syria there but not the head of Hamas. I I was slightly surprised that you regarded the road am told he gave every impression of being committed map as non sequential. I can accept entirely it is less to a political process, but it is a political process sequential than Oslo but it is the sequencing which which should, in my view, be another condition for has broken down in the implementation of the road European or British or anybody’s preparedness to map because there has been the failure of both sides assist a Palestinian Authority. All the conditions we to do the first stage, the violence and the settlements. apply are ones we see through the prism of our On the question of what is now called political relationship with Israel—understood—but what horizons—which is polite diplomat speak for final about the conditions that should be applied because status issues—there does seem now to be a rather of what is happening on the ground in Palestine? broader consensus, including the United States and There are worries about the extent to which Hamas certainly including the Arabs in their latest will try to Islamise education, social activities and pronouncements and Abu Mazen, that there really other similar things in Palestine and I think that must be some addressing in substance of the political should be concerning us. For example, there were horizons if you are to deal with what happens on the recent eVorts to censor books used or a book used in road to get there. I want to ask you whether you agree Palestinian schools. I think that is the sort of issue, as with that—because of course in the road map the well as the other ones, on which Europe and outside political horizons are concerned to a happy future friends should take a very tough line with Hamas. after you have done all the other things—and, if that When I was there last we raised the issue pretty is so, do you think the European Union should be vigorously with, as it were, the Hamas Education trying to define some ideas on the final status issues Minister (as I recall it, a DPhil graduate of or do you think that is just too dangerous? Do you Manchester University), and they moved very think, for example, they should be trying to say in rapidly to rescind a decision which they claimed had their discussions with the Arabs, “You cannot have been taken by Fatah civil servants rather than Hamas the return of every single Palestinian who has ever ministers, but, anyway, it is an issue on which we lived in the piece of territory that is going to be should be very tough and on which we should be occupied by the two states. You cannot have that; very vigilant. there will have to be some compromise”? Saying to the Israelis, “You cannot have the fact that you possess the whole of Jerusalem.” Should the Q367 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: This is critical really European Union be trying to define positions on to making any headway. There is some suggestion these highly sensitive but absolutely crucial issues or that the National Unity Government is a bit fragile in should we simply be saying, “Well, they have to be anybody’s language but really Hamas seems to hold talked about but somebody else had better do the many more of the cards than Fatah do. Would you talking” and that probably means the Americans? negotiate with Hamas and not with Fatah at times? Lord Patten of Barnes: First of all, we are both right Obviously it all has to come together in the end, but about parallelism and sequentialism. Of course it is would you initiate a series of talks with Hamas to true that it was proposed that you should do a series start oV with and see if we could square them first, of steps, that when you had taken those steps you and slightly finesse the question of dealing with the should then go on, as it were, from a bachelor’s to a Unity Government? master’s degree, but the steps you took before each Lord Patten of Barnes: No, I would try to deal with the stage were to be taken in parallel rather than each Unity Government. I agree it is weak, though thing depending on the other party acting in a certain stronger than its predecessor. The Foreign Minister, way. I do not think it makes very much sense to try the Finance Minister and the Security Minister all to find where we left the road map—which certainly have a good deal of credibility. Not to deal with the has not been on the driver’s seat for some time. I government as a whole, I think, undermines Abu think there is a great deal to be said, not least because Mazen. I met him in Ramala last month and after of the weakness of the parties, in trying to cut to the Mecca he looked and sounded a lot more positive and quick and for Europe to argue with the United States cheerful about life than he had before. I would deal and with the Arab League and with the parties to the 3676421012 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes dispute on the ground that we need to go to some reach a consensus, for example in what you are now form of conference in which we try to define the final describing on the policy towards Hamas? status issues. I put my name to an advertisement in Lord Patten of Barnes: I think it will be diYcult. I have the papers which was sponsored by the International always regarded Russia as the biggest failure in Crisis Group saying that a few months ago, and I do European common policies because it should not be feel that, unless the members of the Quartet and Arab diYcult to establish a common position on Russia League work together with the parties and try to push rather than to allow oneself endlessly to be beaten at them into agreement—incidentally, not just on the card table by somebody playing low sixes and Israel/Palestine, but Syria/Lebanon as well—we are sevens. In the case of the Middle East, I think it is not likely to get anywhere. We all know what the much more diYcult to shape a common policy outlines of an agreement will be. They were there at because of the diVerent histories of European Tabah, they were there at Camp David, they are there countries, not least in Germany, because of this in the Geneva Initiative. We all know it is absolutely country’s relationship with the United States, clear that no final agreement would be acceptable to because of the French and British relations with Israel which completely changed the demography of countries in the region, some of which we created at Israel. It is a point which the Israeli Foreign Minister Versaille and in the aftermath for reasons which have feels very strongly about and I greatly sympathise. I very little to do with nation statehood. So I think it is do not mind saying that in public and indeed have diYcult to pull things together and one must always done in the past. It is equally the case that you cannot be careful that you do not just pull together the possibly have the sort of settlement activity which is lowest common denominator all the time. now taking place east of Jerusalem without it making a viable Palestinian state simply impossible. When Q371 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Is there any you look at how close to the Dead Sea the planned prospect, then, of a highest common factor in respect settlement activity goes, it makes that plain as a of dealing with Hamas? V pikesta . I do not think it is unhelpful for Europeans Lord Patten of Barnes: I would hope that European and Americans to make these points, otherwise the foreign ministers would see the awful damage which “facts on the ground” are going to continue to dictate will be done if we undermine the National Unity that we do not make any progress anyway. I am sure Government, not least to our moderate friends in the that Javier Solana, who has worked so hard on these Arab world. Here we are, we have encouraged the issues, and his team in Brussels could write on the Saudis and the Jordanians and the Egyptians to get back of an envelope what are going to be the main more involved in resolving the issue and to do so on issues to which both sides will have to agree sooner or the side of moderation rather than the reverse. If, later. I would not propose turning the Beirut after they have done that, we still will not deal with Declaration, as repeated recently, into a negotiating the government that has resulted then I think it document. I do not think it is that. I think it describes would weaken our position and weaken our V the world after a settlement; nevertheless, it o ers a relationship with them. political horizon and a very important one. Q372 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: You mentioned the Q369 Lord Anderson of Swansea: We have had need to bring Syria and Lebanon into any attempt to V contradictory signals from di erent parts of Hamas get a comprehensive settlement in the Middle East over the past few days in respect of the ending of the and that does seem to be a genuinely shared view now ceasefire. Does that tell us anything about the in the EU, but what sort of role could the EU play in possibility of reaching a consensus within Hamas bringing that about and what sort of policies should itself? it be pursuing; for example, with respect to the Lord Patten of Barnes: Yes, it does. I think that internal Lebanese situation and the implications for probably reflects the recent activities of the IDF in that of the UN process of following up the Hariri Gaza and elsewhere. As Lord Crickhowell said, just murder, and to what extent should the Syrians be V as there were di erent elements, some more military pressed to enter into direct negotiations with the than others, in Sinn Fein IRA, so I think there are in Israelis at an early stage? A highly sensitive issue, of Hamas too. A lot of Palestinian casualties play to course, which the Syrians appear to want to pretend those who say that there is not going to be a political at least they wish to do, and the Israelis certainly not settlement. pretending and fending them oV. Lord Patten of Barnes: I think the Syrians want to Q370 Lord Anderson of Swansea: You had a fairly negotiate with Israel and I think they are absolutely unique position in trying to understand the diVerent genuine about that. There is, of course, some feeling, national viewpoints within the European Union in I suppose, in Damascus that all they can do is wait seeking to bring a consensus. Are the EU national out the presidencies of President Chirac and positions so diVerent that it will be very diYcult to President Bush and hope for better in the future. But 3676421012 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes they are not in a very strong position. The economy back in that fold hook, line and sinker. Looking at is extremely weak and I think that for the allies to be the two countries, would you encourage the United seen to have lost both Lebanon and not regained the States to engage directly now with Syria and Iran? Golan would be quite a political failure and one They seem to be more keen on talking to Iran than diYcult for them to sustain for very long. First of all, talking to Syria. It is the direct discussions with those I do not think that engaging Syria means that we give countries. You spoke about it in relation to Israel, up on the Hariri inquiry. I think the important thing what about the United States? Secondly, what stage about the Hariri inquiry is that it should be seen as a would you give Iran in any process of negotiation? judicial process, not as an attempt to secure regime Would you have it in the fold or outside the fold? change. Secondly, unless we negotiate with Syria as Lord Patten of Barnes: I would talk to both. As I have well as promote negotiations between Israel and said, I do not think you can have a policy in the Palestine, the danger is that Syria pulls some of the Middle East if you do not talk to Syria and you do strings attached to Palestinian groups and makes it not talk to Iran. If you do not recognise, for example, very diYcult to secure any progress with Palestine. how badly things have gone when the Sunni world Thirdly, just as the outlines of an agreement for supports Shi’ite military activity through Hezbollah Israel/Palestine are clear, so are the outlines of an or whatever. That was an extraordinary moment and agreement for the Golan. But I suspect that the I think should give us some indication of just how we Golan would be more diYcult for an Israeli have cocked things up in the last few years. I would government to deliver, because of the settlement not deal with Syria and Iran as though they were activity, than it was to deliver the unilateral hyphenated. I would deal with them on their own withdrawal from Gaza. What is plain is that you terms and I would not regard dealing with them as a cannot, I repeat myself, have a policy on the Middle sign of feebleness. I do not know how we are going to East which involves trying to freeze out the Syrians. resolve the Iranian nuclear issue unless we try to I suspect that at the moment one of the reasons why bring Iranians in from the cold. I do not know how no progress is being made with the Syrian track is we will find any even passingly acceptable political because the Americans are discouraging the Israelis settlement in Iraq unless we talk to its neighbours. I from responding to Syrian overtures. I think there is do not think we will get a peace in the Middle East a view in America, in parts of Washington, that if you unless we involve Syria. I think we have to talk to the do not talk to Syria you isolate them, and sooner or Iranians and the Syrians. It is a negation of leadership later that promotes regime change. I just do not think diplomacy not to do so. We got quite a long way with it is true. It is true that Syria would remain dealing with the crazies in North Korea in the 1990s economically weak but if you want to strengthen a by talking to them. They ratted on the agreement. weak autocratic government in the Middle East then They ratted on the agreement partly, I think, for the the best thing to do is, from the outside, say you want same reasons that teenagers trash houses when their to overthrow it and then it gets all sorts of popular parents are away. I think they were trying to bring support which would not otherwise be the case. Some attention back to themselves. But it did not work people may think I am a bit naive about Bashar when for four or five years we simply did not deal Assad. I think he is genuine in wanting to secure a with them. We have the makings of an agreement peace agreement on the Golan and I think he is now by working with them, and they are a pretty genuine in wanting to open up the economy. I almost nasty, very nasty regime. So we have to talk to these managed to negotiate a Euro-Med agreement with people. Syria, got very close to the end and then it was scuppered by events, not least in the Lebanon. Q374 Lord Crickhowell: There has been a good deal of agreement from our witnesses about the fact that Q373 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I too have we have to involve Syria in the settlement. Whereas negotiated on the Euro-Med Agreement and I agree they spoke about the weakness of the Israeli with what you say about Bashar Assad. The times I government, the Israeli Ambassador to the have dealt with him, I thought that was what he Commission—who has been engaged in this almost wanted. We tend to have coupled Syria and Iran longer than anyone—expressed himself extremely together in the Middle East Peace Process, not least strongly, and has clearly been advising the Israeli because of the terrorist activity which is widely Government to the same eVect: that you cannot run perceived to have roots in both countries. Would you the Syria and Palestine things in parallel because of deal with Syria and Iran diVerently? The Iranians do the timetable of dealing with Syria in Israeli terms. By have a stake in this, but they are not Arab League and the time you have taken the case and done all the the point about Syria is that Syria is an Arab country. things that have to be done, and had referendums and It is one of their own. Although economically weak so on, it would put the Israeli Government in an and in a precarious position, one has a very strong impossible position which would destroy it. This was feeling that the rest of the Arab League wants Syria his argument to us, expressed from that seat with 3676421012 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes great force. Would you comment about the mixed up with what we call the Middle East Peace diYculties of it from an Israeli point of view? We have Process? seen all the arguments in general terms and I agree Lord Patten of Barnes: It is right there because at the with you; but it was very interesting how powerful he root of all these issues is a profound worry about was in putting this view. If you ran the Syrian Golan security which is held across the region. If you were Heights issue and so on at the same time as you were starting with a blank sheet of paper, I think you doing the other things probably no Israeli would be wanting to engage in the sort of diplomacy government could survive. That was really what he which produced regional security pacts in the years was saying. after the war. Unless there is some sort of UN Lord Patten of Barnes: We have a government in Security Council backed stabilisation pact for the Israel at the moment which is not talking to anybody region, I think a lot of these issues are going to be very and is barely surviving, so I do not think that is a diYcult to resolve, particularly in circumstances knockdown argument. I think myself that if you had where the non proliferation treaty is starting to fray to choose at which end to start you would probably at the edges. The implication—perhaps I am reading start on the Syrian end. I think that unlocks a lot too much into it—of what the Israel ambassador was more and is a much simpler issue to deal with. You saying, was, “Look, unless diplomacy gets are talking about 20,000 settlers, I think on the somewhere in dealing with Iranian civil war military Golan. You are talking about proposals for national nuclear ambitions, then we will have to take things park around the lake which would help deal with into our own hands and we would expect the people’s security worries and the ability to drive all Americans to look the other way while doing so.” I around the lake. There are a lot of very practical ways think that would be an unmitigated disaster. Among that have been put forward with dealing with that other things, I think it would blow apart any issue. I do not believe it is really a security issue for prospects for the indefinite future of peace in the Israel because anybody trying to come down from region. I also think it would blow apart the sort of the Heights in tanks would get them blown oV the global economic growth that we have started to take for granted. I think one thing which could end that face of the earth very rapidly. I think that what some would be a war in the Gulf, in the Middle East. I have Israelis find very diYcult is explaining to the world a rather unfashionable view about how to deal with how they will not now negotiate with the Syrians, Iran but you might not want to pursue that. I think even though the Syrians want to negotiate with them, we are getting the worst of all worlds at the moment after years in which the Syrians said “We can’t because I think Iran will simply continue with its possibly talk directly to the Israelis.” The situation nuclear activities without any verification or any has changed now. I think Syrians, like Mr Muallem intrusive international regime keeping an eye on what the Foreign Minister, are sophisticated and pretty it is doing. If you fetch up at the end of the day with open-minded interlocutors. our diplomacy not working and Iran having a nuclear weapon, then the impact on other countries Q375 Lord Lea of Crondall: We have debated on and in the region will be huge. oV on the Committee how far Iran is a totally separate question, as it were, from our inquiry but Q376 Lord Lea of Crondall: Some of us have raised when we took evidence from the Israeli Ambassador several times in the House the question of what you to the European Union, Dr Eran, he said Iran is a call the security guarantee in the Middle East, which V serious threat of a di erent nature. There is a big translated into English I always assumed meant that debate whether the policies all of us are pursuing are the two nuclear states, Israel and—rapidly becoming aimed at the end of the nuclear programme or are we so, at any rate—Iran, would be parties to some also looking at regime change in Iran. The two are guarantee of no first-use of nuclear weapons or necessarily linked and connected. Obviously there whatever. Is that what you call a security guarantee? are two timetables involved because if we do not What do you call a security guarantee or who has put know when the regime change is going to occur we something on the table to that eVect? cannot wait for that because the nuclear clock is Lord Patten of Barnes: Nobody has. I do not regard ticking and ticking very quickly. You do not need that as the security guarantee. I regard the security much imagination to see a scenario there where guarantee as the members of the Security Council everything can be hijacked by a kind of new crisis to guaranteeing the borders of all the existing states and do with Iran/Israel relationships. Could you making it clear that they themselves would be comment on how far that should be seen as a big part prepared to intervene militarily if there was any of the picture. We have mentioned Mecca and attempt to change those borders. I do not think you Riyadh and how far it is influencing the Kingdom of could base a security guarantee on no first-use Saudi Arabia and so on. Would you comment on pledges by the Israelis and the Iranians. I happen to how far the Iranian question is right there, somehow believe—which some people may think is 3676421012 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes spectacularly naive—that it is not proven that the involve human rights clauses and clauses about Iranians want nuclear weapons themselves. I think terrorism and nuclear weapons. You will find what they want is what the Japanese have, which is a yourself, as I do, negotiating with some diYculty the basement capability. Whether it is easier to draw the precise terms of an agreement on human rights with line at the ceiling of the basement rather than where some of these countries, only to discover a little later we are trying to draw it at the moment is the real that your country and others have been looking the issue. In other words, if we cannot get them to pull other way when extraordinary rendition has been back from completing the fuel cycle, whether we dumping people into these countries so that they should be looking at an agreement with them which could be tortured in exactly the same ways you have involves delaying their nuclear activities, involves a tried to prevent happening in the negotiations. So I very intrusive inspection and verification regime, and think we have to be a bit more sophisticated in the involves trying to draw a line with much tougher way that we pursue our political objectives as well as sanctions between civil and military use. I think that our economic objectives. The attempt to reach is the real debate and there is a lot more interest in agreement on a free trade pact with the Gulf that idea in parts of the American foreign policy and Cooperation Council was held back, as I recall, by security establishment that people here think. I do, endless debates about the Sharia law. I remember one on the whole, share the view of people like Graham late night session in Brussels when we discussed Allison that we should be looking at the three noes: stoning, at the end of which I wondered whether the no loose nukes, no nuclear states, no proliferation of way I could best secure the agreement was by rushing nuclear weapons, but I fear we may be trying to draw down to the Grand Place in Brussels and seeking one a line in Iran in a place where it is not going to work. or two adulteresses to stone. I mean, I obviously engage in a rather cynical observation, but it does sometimes make it diYcult to secure one lot of Q377 Lord Swinfen: Do you think that the EU objectives to write into it another set of objectives. should do more than it is already doing to engage Are we tough in policing the sort of human rights and with the other states’ organisations in the area: the other clauses that we write into the agreements? No, neighbouring states of Israel, the Arab Quartet and we are not. If President Chirac regards the President the Gulf Cooperation Council? of Tunis as somebody to support, then you will not Lord Patten of Barnes: I do not think one should make any progress if you try as a Commissioner to underestimate the amount that in terms of trade, raise the question of human rights abuses in Tunisia. diplomacy, development, cooperation and other I am sorry, that was a slight digression. forms of diplomacy, the European Union is dealing with both the countries of the Mediterranean southern literal and the Gulf Cooperation Council Q378 Lord Anderson of Swansea: President Chirac states as well. I do think we have not been suYciently restrained you from pursuing the human rights theme aggressive in pushing the free trade area which was in Tunisia. President Chirac has personal ventures supposed to be constructed around the into Lebanon and elsewhere. Our Prime Minister Mediterranean by 2010 and I think there are still equally goes to the Middle East. Where is the dividing some serious agricultural issues which have held that line between what national governments have back. It is completely absurd that you see products traditionally done in their foreign policy in the being grown in, for example, the south of Spain on Middle East and the value-added which comes from plastic sheets, with water brought down from the the European Union? Given your vast experience in north of Spain, with crops being picked by illegal the British Cabinet and the EU, where is the Moroccan migrants, when if you go across the water appropriate dividing line as you see it? to Morocco you see them without the plastic and Lord Patten of Barnes: First of all, I repeat what I said without the movement of water, growing the same earlier. We will never be in the business of having a things but not able to ship them into Europe, with the single European foreign policy. It will be common. result that instead we get illegal migrants. It is a For example, you are never, in my judgment, going completely mad world: if we do not take their to be able to persuade people that they should allow tomatoes, we get their illegals instead. I think we decisions on whether or not to send their children oV should do more to push the elements in the Euro- to risk being killed to be taken by a European Med. When I look back at my own time as a Commissioner. Nobody would ever agree that that Commissioner, I wish I had spent more time on that decision should be taken by a European issue; although, to some extent, as a Commissioner Commissioner. It seems curious that in some ways you can only go as far as the elastic band will allow. they seem less worried when that decision is taken by There is an issue here which has worried me over the an American president, but I put that on one side. I years, which is our attempt to knit together would hope member states would see how much commercial and political issues. Any agreement more impact Europe has when France, Britain, which you sign now in the European Union has to Germany and others do act together. I mean no 3676421012 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes disrespect to the other 24 Member States of the Lord Patten of Barnes: Not really. European Union when I say there is not a European policy unless France, Germany and Britain agree on Q381 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I it. I think we should recognise much more how we remember being told if I went to speak to Yasser have a greater impact when we work in common. I Arafat as a Middle East minister I would simply not have been very struck in recent years by the extent to be welcome in Israel. That really does diminish one’s which a lot of our American friends wish we did more ability then to negotiate, having listened to both sides in common. They do not like very much dealing with of the debate. a fractured European response to tough Lord Patten of Barnes: There was never a moment in international questions. The value-added is not just my five years when the Israelis did not turn up to a the value-added of 27 countries working together, Euro-Med summit, did not want to come and talk to which is clearly a huge value-added when it comes to the European Union about diVerent aspects of the trade policy; the value-added is also that you pool Barcelona Process. At the same time, Mr Sharon together in external relations, in a much easier way would say that he would not talk to any European if than is possible in government, all sorts of they had first been to see Mr Arafat. But if you allow instruments which have a bearing on political issues: yourself to be bullied out of what you think is right development policy, trade policy, harmonisation of by that sort of temporary unilateralism then you do regulation, migration policies, all sorts of policies not get anywhere. which are increasingly what the foreign policy agenda Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Fair enough. consists of. I was struck in my years as a Thank you. Commissioner by the way the foreign policy agenda was moving and the way in which foCeign ministers found themselves discussing the sorts of issues which Q382 Lord Lea of Crondall: We touched much in the past they would have expected to be somebody earlier in the discussion on whether there is an else’s responsibility. So I think that is a second way in institutional reason why Europe lacks clout and you are the world’s leading expert almost on the which you can strengthen the instruments of foreign institutional dimension of European foreign policy. policy by deploying some of the other aspects, where We are speaking now at a time when it is clear we are Europe has agreed not just to be intergovernmental moving towards having an EU foreign minister. The but to a degree of supranational activity too. Prime Minister, with Gordon Brown’s support, has Chairman: Lady Symons has asked to come in on sent a letter to Angela Merkel or something like that. this. Do you think any institutional change can do much to avoid the catch-22 that prime ministers and Q379 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Lord presidents, Blair, Chirac, Merkel, need to have a Patten has been making a highly persuasive profile in the Middle East on any major question? argument about the levels of engagement, how we They have voters to think of. At the same time, we engage as Europeans and the fact that you never find know that it is precisely because the Americans an answer unless you talk to people. But the recent cannot pick up the telephone, they say, and talk to past demonstrates that by talking to some people you somebody that there is an alibi for Europe never take yourselves out of the conversation with others. being able to get its act together. Obviously you know The real problem we had over this is that, as you this inside, out, backwards, forwards and sideways, know, when people spoke to Yasser Arafat they were but could you say a little bit more about it Is it all a simply not allowed to engage with Israeli ministers. red herring this institutional stuV or is it quite We are now in a position where certainly this country important to Europe’s clout? V has at least a level of engagement, a small level of Lord Patten of Barnes: I think the institutional stu , leverage—I would not overplay it—with the Israelis. first of all, applies in Washington as well as it does in It concerns me—and one might as well surface the Brussels. For most of my time in Brussels you would argument—that if we pursue a policy, which on the not have known who to phone in Washington to find whole I agree with, is there not a danger of simply out what foreign or security policy was. Was it the talking to only one side of the argument and never President who knew? Was it the Vice-President who really having the ability to speak frankly then to the knew? Was it Mr Libby who knew? Was it the Israelis, both as Europeans, in the way you have been National Security Council? Was it the Secretary of describing, but also as individual countries? State? Was it the Pentagon? I think the Henry Lord Patten of Barnes: That can be a danger but I am Kissinger question can be asked in reverse. Secondly, not sure that it is one that lasts for very long. I have never believed—and this has put me at odds with some of my colleagues—that you always need to make institutional changes or have institutional fixes Q380 Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: It has to deal with political problems. I think it is true on the lasted several years with Israel. whole that institutional changes can produce 3676421012 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes political impetus and political pressures, but I do not Q383 Lord Crickhowell: You have touched on some take the view today that you need a European of the issues in question 9, which is what is the Constitution—because there are 27 Member States assessment of the roles played by the EU High of the European Union and now the place is not Representative and of the EU Special Representative working properly. I do think part 1 of the late to the MEPP. You have talked about the lamented constitution has a great deal to be said for Commission’s delegation to Egypt and so on. it. Dealing with the institutional issues, dealing with Particularly in this connection, how do you see the issues which are of great importance to individual coordination of the relationship, shall I put it, nation states, like a two-and-a-half year term for a between the Special Representative and the full-time President of the Council, like double Commission’s delegations to Israel and the West majority voting and like a double-hatted High Bank and Gaza? I think we got the message when we Representative (I think the word for double- were in Brussels that the Special Representative kept hatting—which Europe has not used yet but in very close touch with the European foreign doubtless will before long—is bi-petasic), would not ministers, having very regular, I think fortnightly render irrelevant or impotent the Quai d’Orsay or meetings, and you could see how that link was taking King Charles Street or other foreign ministries. It place. But how do you see the role of the Special would mean that the sort of powers I was able to Representative and the relationship with the summon up or the money I was able to call up as a Commission? European Commissioner would be part of the Lord Patten of Barnes: I feel myself that if you have a armoury of things that a High Representative of the double-hatted High Representative and you are Council was automatically able to do. There is a attempting to bring together the work of the Council consequence of this which I think we have been a bit secretariat in external relations and the work which is coy in dealing with and that is the role of the already done by the Commission, the argument for delegations of the European Commission around the having Special Representatives on the ground is region and around the world. If you are a considerably weakened and that you should regard representative of Europe in Cairo and you are not your heads of delegations on the ground as Special only responsible for relaying the decisions taken by Representatives. I think it is very easy to undercut the the Council of Ministers on political issues to the role of heads of delegations, whether in the Caucuses Egyptian government but also have at the same time or Middle East or elsewhere, by, in my view, the £200 million or £300 million of development rather incontinent appointment of Special assistance and access to soft loans and your own Representatives, so I would have hoped that the bi- trade negotiator, then your relationships with your petasic Javier Solana would be able to work through fellow . . . not ambassadors, because European heads heads of delegations rather than a number of Special of delegation are not ambassadors, but your fellow Representatives. Some of the institutional tensions Europeans in this or that capital are obviously which exist at the moment between the High profoundly aVected. It is why I have always believed Representative and the Commission would not be eliminated, they would be changed by the sorts of that the European Foreign Service, if you can proposals in part 1 of the treaty. For example you describe it thus, should be composed not only of would no longer, I think, have tensions with a Commission insiders but of representatives of the Commissioner; you would have tensions with the Member States; in other words that there should be full-time President of the Council and with the much more in/outing between the foreign services of President of the Commission. But whoever drafts Member States and the Commission. Of course, if institutional arrangements can never draft their way you are in the foreign ministry of some Member around the fact that whether or not people get on States, however brilliant and good you are, you are together depends on their personalities and their going to find a job working for the European Union good sense rather more than the precise definitions of almost anywhere in the world a lot more responsible their jobs. Javier Solana and I regarded it as and a lot more interesting than a job working for imperative that we got on well together whatever the your own government, so I think you would get some tensions between our respective institutions. But very high quality people. I would hope that at some those tensions are not very helpful. There have stage the European Commission and the Council’s always been some people in the Commission who secretariat would see the point of establishing—they have thought the Commission should take over are always called a committee of wise men and foreign policy—which would be completely barking. women in Brussels, and sometimes they are wise—of There have always been some people in the establishing a committee to look at how you could secretariat who thought the Commission budget amalgamate much more eVectively Commission staV should be something which they could raid whenever and the staV from nation states, because that is one they wanted, in order to meet this or that paragraph change in the treaty which would make delivery on in a communique´. So there are problems on both the ground diVerent in quality than it is at present. sides. 3676421012 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes

Q384 Lord Crickhowell: Parliament hates the whole not have as much influence in encouraging movement business because it has no control or involvement in Israel as Elliott Abrams and as in preventing with Solana at all. We got that message very clearly. movement in Israel. I think we should have a lot more Lord Patten of Barnes: They had huge involvement influence than we do, not least through America on when I was there, I have to say, with the Israel. As I said at the outset, we should have done Commissioner for External Relations. Indeed, more to raise the political price of inaction in Israel or in America or of doing things which are plainly Q385 Lord Crickhowell: They do not feel they have wrong. Clearly, Israel’s position is going to be eVective involvement with Solana. diVerent, not only if and when there is an agreement Lord Patten of Barnes: That may or may not be the but if and when Turkey becomes a member of the case but I used to sometimes feel that my engagement European Union as well. Indeed, I think our relations in the parliament—which of course, I much enjoyed: with the whole of the Middle East changed quite a it was a salutary democratic experience!—underlined good deal in those circumstances. But I would my belief that parliaments talk most about the things certainly see a very strong case for Israel having the over which they have least control and influence and same sort of customs agreement and the same sort of I endlessly found myself in debates about European trading relationship with Europe that Turkey has policy on parts of the world where Europe is unlikely today, perhaps even more. When you look at the to make any impact whatsoever but it was an trade flows and the investment flows, you see how agreeable experience—up to a point. important the European market is to Israel and the other way round. Israel has been doing economically extraordinarily well because of its very eVective IT Q386 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Could I go back to sector in the last few years. I think there are very the issues of relations with Israel and ask you to strong reasons for stressing the economic comment on the two aspects. You had an exchange relationship with Israel in the long term. I repeat with Baroness Symons about how we should handle what I said at the outset: we should never it if the Israelis try to cold shoulder us when we decide underestimate the number of Israelis, including who to talk to amongst the Arabs. Would you feel prominent Israelis, who rather share our view of what that the capacity of the Europeans to strong arm the should be happening in the region. They are Israelis is not very great? sometimes inhibited from saying that because to say Lord Patten of Barnes: Yes. anything good about Europe and Israel tends to make you very unpopular. Q387 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: And frankly will always drive the Israelis straight back into the arms of the United States, who will then respond in a Q388 Lord Boyce: You have given us a flavour of rather knee-jerk way which will split the Europeans how important you think the European Union is in from the Americans. You may get as many plaudits general. I wonder if you would like to say something as you like in Arab capitals but not advance the about the eVectiveness of some of the European process very far. If you agree with that, do you not Union instruments. You touched on the Euro-Med feel, as I do, that we might be doing better in dialogue, but what about the Neighbourhood Policy. concentrating on the political horizon which no one Perhaps you would say something about that. And talks about, which is what Europe’s relationship what about some of the operational missions, such as might be with a post-settlement Israel? How is Israel the election monitors? If you think it is not all it to fit into the European Union’s view of the world if should be, how could it be improved? there were a settlement in the Middle East, given the Lord Patten of Barnes: I think our election fact that the idea that it will just become another observation mission is one of the most important and Middle Eastern country is frankly pretty visionary, useful things that we do. I think it has been extremely shall we say, if we are being polite. It will not become important not to undermine the credibility of those just another Middle Eastern country and it will want. operations by allowing observation missions to take That is somewhere where it seems to me Europe has a role where we do not actually think the situation on something that Israel desperately wants, whether it is the ground is conducive to a fair election in the first markets or values or an ability to get even more place. For example, I remember declining to send an deeply involved in a whole range of European election observation mission to look at the policies in higher education and elsewhere. Do you referendum campaign in Venezuela. It was perfectly think that political horizon might be worth sketching plain that the arrangements on the ground were out a little bit more fully as part of an overall crook from the beginning. If you sent an observation approach to getting a Middle East settlement? mission in and they told you that everybody on the Lord Patten of Barnes: Yes, I do. I agree with most of day had been able to vote in the right way and ballot what you said in your introductory remarks, though papers had been collected properly, you were I do not think it is written on marble that Europe will overlooking the fact that the whole system was 3676421012 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:22 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG12

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26 April 2007 Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes distorted. I think the credibility of the election supported democracy in the Middle East and put $50 observation missions is very important and that they million on the table for doing so, we had years of have undoubtedly done a better job in a number of experience of spending hundreds, billions of euros parts of the world, Zimbabwe, for example, than the directly in grant and spending, I would guess, 3.5 communique´s and Council conclusions that we billion in soft loans through the EIB, whose activities drafted with infinite patience and not much eVect. in the Mediterranean area now should not be The Neighbourhood Policy—though I am, I underestimated, so I think we have instruments suppose, largely responsible for it or partly which should be perhaps delivering more than they responsible—falls down on two grounds. First of all, have. Perhaps I could add one personal thought on our reluctance to accept that enlargement has not yet that which relates to the question of human rights finished. The Neighbourhood Policy was really and political values. We at present apply negative designed in retrospect as a way of answering the conditionality in our development assistance. If a question that Ukraine posed about how we would be country infringes too radically our view of how well prepared to recognise their “European vocation”. I they should be behaving and how well they should be am a strong believer myself, provided you do not protecting civil liberties, then we say we will take dilute the criteria, of Ukraine and Maldon becoming money away from them. We hardly ever do because members of the European Union, of Turkey in due there is nearly always some Member State which has course and the rest of the Balkans becoming a particularly strong relationship with the country members. And I do not think that makes it and is against penalising in that way. I have always impossible to run the club if you do all that. I of been in favour—and I think we have started to shift course accept that you cannot go on enlarging the in this direction in the Euro-Med partnership—of European Union until you get to North Korea. There positive conditionality; that is trying to reach are limits and those border areas, like the Caucuses, agreements with countries on what they are like the Central Asian republics in due course, should proposing to do and then rewarding them with the encourage the use of diVerent and more preferential payment of additional grant for doing it. When I left economic arrangements. That raises the second the European Commission, about 10% of the Euro- Med budget was intended to be used in that way. I am question about the Neighbourhood Policy. I think not sure whether it has been or not and I would sometimes it does not oVer people quite enough in myself like to see a bigger amount used in that way. return for the political obligations and other things Chairman: Thank you very much indeed for the that we ask of them, whether in terms of access for amount of time you have given us, which is rather their products or financial support. I repeat what I more than we originally suggested to your oYce. said: the Neighbourhood Policy is to some extent an Obviously your own first-hand experience while you attempt to avoid the enlargement question. We tried were a Commissioner but also subsequently in the something similar before, when Austria and Sweden region has been very valuable to us. Although we and Finland wanted to become members of the have come to our preliminary conclusions, I think European Union. I think I am right in saying—and almost all the things you have said will have Lord Hannay will correct me if I am wrong—that confirmed us in the direction we were already Monsieur Delore suggested they should have pointing but they have given us a good deal more something that was not quite membership of the useful evidence to sustain the positions which we European Union but was a warmer relationship than were adopting. Again, thank you very much indeed. they had then. It is like telling people that they can Having had the chance to come before us, I hope you join the club provided they do not play golf at the will not mind too much if on some subsequent weekend. It is simply not acceptable to most of them. inquiry we call on you again because tapping your That is an instrument which I think reflects a political experience of the Commission and its work is very hesitation or indecision in the European Union, useful to us and you do not have to come quite as far though it is well intentioned. The Euro-Med process as some other witnesses. Thank you very much was a visionary process. When America decided it indeed. 3676421013 Page Type [SE] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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Written Evidence

Memorandum by Nomi Bar-Yaacov

Independent Foreign Policy Adviser on Middle Eastern Affairs The Sub-Committee asked me to address the following question:

What should EU policy with regard to the Middle East Peace Process focus on?

Supporting the National Unity Government The EU, in close coordination with other Quartet Members (the US, UN and Russia) should support the newly-formed Palestinian National Unity Government (NUG) in order to avoid the collapse of the PA and a return to violence. The EU should focus on strengthening Palestinian Authority (PA) institutions, resuming economic aid directly to the Ministry of Finance, and supporting the reform of the multiple factionalised security forces. The political process should be supported by the Quartet, of which the EU is a key member. Positive conditionality should be linked to economic aid and new benchmarks should be created to enhance the peace process. The EU should judge the NUG by its performance: its actual commitment to non-violence should be judged by its adherence to a Hudna or ceasefire and its willingness and ability to control and crack down on opposition groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad which advocate violence against Israel and oppose any peace process. The actual halt of attacks on Israel should be non-negotiable, as should the end to any public display of illegal arms. Recognition of Israel should also be judged by the NUG’s willingness and commitment to negotiate with Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders. Hamas’ agreement to empower President Mahmoud Abbas to negotiate on its behalf should be welcome. Recognition of previous agreements is tricky since neither Israel nor the PA have carried out many of their obligations under Oslo, the Road Map and other interim agreements. The NUG’s commitment to respect previous agreements stipulated in the Mecca Declaration is welcome. It could be viewed as a cautious first step even if it falls short of the Quartet’s desire to seek a declaration of full recognition. Small steps in a diYcult process must be viewed as progress and should be encouraged. Current EU eVorts should also focus on getting the NUG to release the IDF’s Corporal Gilad Shalit who was kidnapped from Israeli sovereign territory in June 2006 and BBC correspondent Alan Johnston who was kidnapped in Gaza in mid-March 2007. Attention should also be given to ensuring that the NUG succeeds in preventing the firing of Qassam rockets from Gaza into Israel. It is also important for the EU to devise a strategy to monitor and limit the smuggling of arms through tunnels from Egypt into Gaza. The EU should work closely with other Quartet members and consult regularly with the Arab Quartet, namely, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. The latter have an increasingly important role to play in the MEPP. It is important to deal with the NUG as a whole and not to boycott, undermine or marginalise individual members of the government Attempts to isolate certain members may hamper eVorts to reach a cease-fire and promote a political settlement.

Reaching out to Hamas moderates

The EU must come to terms with the fact that Hamas is part of the fabric of Palestinian society. The question the EU should be grappling with is how to support Hamas in a way that will strengthen Hamas moderates and marginalise the extremists. It must recognise that the movement is not homogeneous and that boycotting it will strengthen the extremist tendencies since moderates thus far have little to show for their more conciliatory approach. 3676421013 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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The EU and Israel

The EU, in close coordination with other Quartet members should put pressure on Israel to dismantle the 102 illegal outposts in the West Bank and stop the expansion of settlements.

The EU should also engage in discussions with Israel about the possible lifting of the numerous restrictions on movement of Palestinian people and goods since the Palestinian economy cannot function without freedom of movement. Israel should also be encouraged to release the custom revenues it holds for the PA and release Palestinian prisoners. All these would serve as vital confidence-building measures and should be set benchmarks as part of a peace process and not isolated ad hoc actions.

Key Goals:Political Process,Security and Economic Reform

The political process, security and economy must all be top priorities for the EU. They must all be addressed in tandem. One of the key mistakes the Quartet made in the past is that the US alone dealt with all political and security issues in the MEPP whereas the EU and UN were assigned to deal with economic aid. The latter found themselves pouring vast sums of money into a bottomless pit due to continuing insecurity and the lack of a meaningful political process. The only way to avoid this in future is for the EU and UN to have a role in the political and security spheres too.

The political process

There is a short window of opportunity now for a serious push to resume talks on the so-called final status issues: borders, settlements, Jerusalem and refugees.

In March 2007 Palestinian warring factions Hamas and Fatah reached a truce and formed a National Unity Government with a number of independent candidates, representing the vast majority of Palestinian people. Later that month, the Arab League revived its 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, extending a hand to Israel. Syria, in the past year, has consistently and persistently called for a resumption of talks with Israel. The US, after years of a hands-oV policy, has finally engaged. The Israeli government is weak, having suVered a terrible blow in the July 2006 Lebanon war, and is anxiously awaiting the publication of the Winograd Commission of Enquiry into the conduct of the various responsible state institutions. Senior politicians, including the Prime Minister and Minister of Defence may be forced to resign after the publication of the report. In addition, a series of serious corruption and sexual assault scandals have broken out in recent months further weakening the government. Nevertheless, there is huge support in the Israeli public for a settlement of the conflict both with the Palestinian and Syrians. Despite the weak Israeli government, the time is ripe for a serious push for peace. There is overwhelming support in the Israeli public for a peace deal and a window of opportunity to re-build trust is now open and it must be seized.

The Arab Peace Initiative is most welcome. It is no a peace plan. It is a declaration of overture by the entire Arab world towards Israel on the basis of key principles. It rightly leaves the actual negotiations to the Israelis and the Palestinians. Other important framework documents include the Clinton parameters of July 2000, the Taba document of January 2001, and the more recent Geneva Initiative. All these can form a basis for serious peace negotiations. The Road Map is unlikely ever to be implemented since neither side is likely to carry out its commitments under Phase 1 of the plan. The Palestinians are called upon to dismantle all terrorist infrastructure and the Israelis to withdraw from much of the West Bank. The dismantling of terror infrastructure is only likely to come at the end of a peace process, not at its beginning.

The Disarmament, Demobilisation, and Reintegration (DDR) of armed personnel belonging to the various Palestinian factions will be key to achieving a lasting peace settlement. It should only be expected that DDR will succeed as part of a political process when suYcient guarantees have been given to the various armed groups that their security will be assured. Hamas is unlikely to ever give up its arms before a deal is done. It is simply not how the movement works, and based on experiences from other countries including Northern Ireland, this should not come as a surprise.

Similarly, Israel is unlikely to withdraw from parts of the West Bank without an agreement since it will be concerned about Palestinian groups arming themselves very close to the border with Israel. Israel has not had much success with its unilateral withdrawals. 3676421013 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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Security One of the main problems in the PA is the multitude of security forces and the factional allegiances they hold. Most of the members of the Presidential Guard and the Preventative Security are allied to Fatah. That is why Hamas created its own security force, known as the Executive Force. It is only after the Executive Force overran the Preventive Security headquarters in Gaza in February this year, that Fatah and Hamas reached a truce. Hamas feels it needs its own force to counter the Fatah forces. Creating a unified and competent security apparatus in Palestine will be one of the most diYcult challenges facing the NUG, but also the most important one. The scale of the challenge should not be under-estimated by international actors who are placing pressure on the NUG to restore security in Palestine. As with DDR, it is not realistic to expect significant progress in integrating the diverse security forces into a national force unless this task is approached hand-in-hand with the political and economic components. The EU should be ready to engage with other international partners in support of a comprehensive Security Sector Reform (SSR) programme, with each partner working in their area of comparative advantage. This task is too delicate to be left to one country to lead. It is also imperative that there be a coherent framework for international assistance in the security domain. This will be necessary to ensure that donors do not work at cross-purposes. An appropriate balance must be struck between improving the governance of the security forces and bolstering their capabilities. If the motto is to be “One Authority, One Gun”, then there should be members of both factions in the Preventative Security and Presidential Guard. Only then will Hamas consider dismantling its own force.

Economy Following the victory of Hamas in the January 2006 elections, the EU devised a Temporary International Mechanism, known as TIM, to bypass dealing directly with the Hamas government. The TIM is intended to ensure that money gets to Palestinians in need and that salaries to PA employees are paid, at least in part. It basically provides a social welfare net. The EU must now work towards the goal of creating a Palestinian economy which will replace the TIM. Palestine must not become a welfare-state. It is time to engage directly with the Ministry of Finance, headed by Salam Fayyad. He is a man well known to the EU, a former finance minister in the previous Fatah government to whom much credit was given by donors for the reforms he carried out at the time. There should, of course, be some conditionality attached to aid: Hamas and the NGU as a whole must adhere to a Hudna or cease-fire, stop the Qassam rocket launchers and release Shalit and BBC correspondent Alan Johnston. More eVorts should be made to ensure the freedom of movement of goods. Israeli restrictions are often intrinsically linked to security and some creative thinking is necessary in order to ensure that goods get in and out of the PA, especially Gaza, also in time of strife. Plans should be made to open the Gaza sea port and airport with a serious international and EU presence to monitor the goods. A prosperous Palestine is in the interest of not only Palestinians but also Israel and all neighbouring countries. Only prosperity will bring stability, and only security and progress in the political process will allow for vital and urgent economic reforms to take place.

The EU and Arab states The EU should engage with the Arab League and the Arab Quartet in discussions on how to best implement the Arab Initiative. The EU should also encourage the Arab League to reach out to the Israeli public, to engage in confidence building measures which will help persuade Israelis that peace really has a chance. More work needs to be done by the Arab states and the EU in the area of Israeli and Palestinian public opinion. In the lastest Tel Aviv University March Poll, it was revealed that half the Israeli population was not aware of the Arab summit in Riyadh in March and have never heard of the Arab Peace Initiative.

Moving from Conflict Management to Conflict Resolution In sum, it is time for the EU to move from thinking along the lines of conflict management to actually getting into the nitty gritty of conflict resolution. The EU can play an active role in the process along-side other Quartet members. It is time for the Quartet to come up with a detailed and comprehensive peace plan, as the required parameters are known to both sides. Further time should not be wasted. 3676421013 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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The EU should also engage more broadly, by reaching out to public opinion both in Israel and the PA, helping to explain the Arab Initiative, stressing that it is a beginning rather than an end in itself, and helping to bridge the gaps in knowledge and perception across the Palestinian and Israeli divide.

Appointing a full-time Special Envoy for Israeli-Palestinian talks

Without the appointment of a full time peace negotiator, the MEPP is doomed to fail. The EU should appoint a high level envoy to carry out full-time shuttle diplomacy between Israel and the PA as soon as possible. Since the US has lost much credibility in the region, the EU is now in a position to take over the lead in negotiations. The EU is a much more credible body and it should take a more active role in the political and security spheres, not only the economic one. It is time to discuss the thorniest final status issues and overcome the taboos. The EU envoy should be endorsed by the Quartet.

Syrian-Israeli talks

The EU should also facilitate the immediate resumption of Syrian-Israeli peace talks. The contours of such an agreement are known to both sides and the time is certainly ripe. A Syrian-Israeli agreement will in all likelihood include a Lebanese-Israeli agreement and would greatly facilitate an Israeli-Palestinian comprehensive agreement as well as the normalization of Arab-Israeli relations in the region. 18 April 2007

Memorandum by the Commission Services

Q1. What should be the objectives of EU policy in the Middle East Peace Process?

The objective of EU policy is to promote a peaceful resolution to the conflict, working in co-operation with the Parties. In this way, the EU works to contribute to an end to the occupation that began in 1967 and the creation of an independent, democratic and viable Palestinian state living side-by-side with Israel and its other neighbours in peace and security. This would oVer the chance for Israel, the Palestinians and other regional partners to consolidate peaceful relations.

Q2. How effective have the EU’s relations and activities been in supporting the Peace Process and in influencing the actors in the region, in comparison with the bilateral relations of individual Member States? To what extent are the roles of the EU and the Member States complementary?

The EU has played a key role in supporting the Middle East peace process. It has a well defined policy stance on the key issues including borders, settlements, Jerusalem, refugees etc. As a member of the Quartet, the EU is at the heart of political discussions on the peace process and is a co-originator of the 2002 performance based “Roadmap” to a permanent two-state solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Therefore, it is well placed to influence actors in the region.

We also have close cooperation with the NGO and civil society sector, which should not be underestimated. The EC’s “Partnership for Peace” programme helps create the conditions for re-launching the peace process. We funded one of the partners who drafted the Geneva initiative (the Palestinian Peace Coalition Association).

Our activities are complementary to the activities of individual Member States thanks to close coordination both in Brussels and in the region. EU Foreign Ministers discuss the peace process at their monthly Council meetings and, in the region, one example of coordination is the “Governance Strategy Group” which brings together EU Member States with other institutions in order to promote harmonisation of donors’ procedures as well as improved integration of donor projects with priorities of the Palestinian Authority. 3676421014 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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Q3. What is your assessment of the effectiveness of existing instruments in achieving EU objectives? What other instruments, if any, does the EU need to be effective in the Middle East Peace Process? How could the available instruments be used more effectively to achieve these objectives? Are the EU’s policies and instruments coherent? Q4. How successfully has the EU operated in the framework of the Quartet, and with its individual members, especially the United States? How effective is the EU participation in the political process, given the constraints on dialogue with and amongst key parties in the region? The EU is well equipped to engage regional partners on both political and practical issues. Regular, structured political dialogue is complemented by discussions on a range of issues such as trade, energy, environment, education etc, depending on the priorities of the country concerned. In the case of the Arab Israeli conflict, the EU is perceived as having a balanced position. This, in combination with its trade, political and practical assistance, increases its credibility in this area. The EU, as the largest trading block in the world and the largest donor to the Palestinians, oVers a range of relationships to the Parties which can not be replicated by Member States acting alone. For example, in recent years political dialogue between the EU and Israel has intensified, in the context of the European Neighbourhood Policy. The Commission considers that the broadening of this dialogue as well as the increased trust in this bilateral framework have contributed to greater openness and a willingness to engage on more controversial issues in the context of the peace process. A concrete example is the deployment of the EU’s Border Assistance Mission at Rafah where the EU is, for the first time, involved in a matter directly related to Israeli and Palestinian security. A similar framework exists for political relations with the Palestinians and we maintain close contacts with the OYce of President Abbas and other independent authorities. However, since the formation of a government in 2006 which did not respond to the three Quartet principles EU Member States decided to suspend political contacts with that government. This policy of “no contact” has limited our dialogue with Palestinian interlocutors. As a member of the Quartet, the EU supported its recent revitalisation and maintains close contact with its partners at both Principals and Envoys level. The other members recognise that the EU is able to deliver eVectively on the ground, in a variety of ways. In 2006, we created the Temporal International Mechanism (TIM) to channel international donor support directly to ordinary Palestinians, after a decision was taken not to engage with the Hamas government.

Q6. How well adapted are the European Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) and the Euro-Mediterranean (Euromed) Partnership to supporting the EU’s policies on the MEPP? The Euro-Mediterranean Partnership has been a key framework for relations between the EU and its Mediterranean partners since 1995. It makes a direct contribution to supporting the EU’s policies on the MEPP not least through the meetings of the Foreign AVairs Ministers of the 37 Euro-Med countries. In the current diYcult circumstances the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership assumes even greater importance as a unique and inclusive structure of regional cooperation on political and security issues, with several important partnership-building measures already in place. Since 2004 our European Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) has provided for deeper bilateral relations with our neighbours, covering all policy areas. It also allows the EU to address certain issues which arise between partner countries. The EU’s interactions with countries in the Middle East, through the ENP, directly contributes to the creation of an environment which facilitates dialogue such as for instance The common elements between the ENP “Action Plans” for Israel and for the Palestinian Authority. In addition, the ENP Action Plans with Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority include commitments on regional co-operation in various fields, and this has already borne fruit.

Q7. What contribution have EU operational missions (eg EU COPPS, EU BAM Rafah, election observation missions) made to achieving EU objectives and advancing the Peace Process? Through the Border Assistance Mission (EU BAM Rafah), Member States have seconded police and customs experts and the European Commission provides equipment and training. Regrettably, the Rafah crossing point has been closed for 80% of the time since the kidnap of an Israeli soldier and the launch of Israeli incursions into Gaza in June 2006. 3676421014 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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The EU Police Mission in the Palestinian Territories (EU POL COPPS) aimed at building up the capacity of the Palestinian civil police which would make a major contribution to law and order, but its operations are suspended under the decision to restrict political contacts with the Hamas government. The EU deployed the largest Election Observation Mission for both the January 2005 presidential election and the January 2006 Legislative Council election in the West Bank and Gaza. This EU monitoring activity has increased confidence in the democratic process, helping to increase accountability and trust in the electoral institutions.

Q9. What steps can the EU now take, including economic steps, to assist a return to and implementation of the Peace Process in the short and medium term? How far should the Peace Process be renewed or should we move to the final status negotiations? Regarding economic steps, clearly progress in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians would lead to economic development in the Palestinian territories. The reverse is also true; economic development would bring stability and space for negotiations. This is why we believe that the proper implementation of the November 2005 Agreement on Movement and Access (AMA) is crucial. If people can not move to and from the Palestinian Territories, or even within the West Bank, people are separated from their places of employment. If goods can not move to and fro, the Palestinian economy is crippled and indeed the Israeli business community is unable to access the market oVered in the Palestinian Territories. Regarding renewal of the peace process, the EU supports the resumption of negotiations between the Parties. The Roadmap adopted by the Quartet remains valid. We consider that discussion of final status issues (such as borders, Jerusalem, refugees and settlements) is necessary in order to mobilise both populations behind a return to negotiations. March 2007

Memorandum by the Funding for Peace Coalition (FPC)

1. Executive Summary 1.1 There is substantial evidence to show how and to where international aid directed to the Palestinian Authority has been diverted away from intended destinations. The result is that under the existing systems, external support for the Palestinians has neither led to substantial reductions in poverty nor reaped a peace dividend. 1.2 The current situation is unacceptable and untenable. — The generosity of western taxpayers is abused. — The average Palestinian is left without resources promised, as monies are diverted to the needs of the corrupt or to the violent. — Victims of other global conflicts are left with a smaller portion of the pie. 1.3 The FPC calls on all donor countries to the Palestinians, of which the EU is arguably the largest group, to find a moral set of proposals; proposals which will establish projects on behalf of the Palestinians themselves, and not just for an oligarchic leadership. This will have the added advantage of engaging the support and confidence of the government of Israel. 1.4 The FPC’s four specific proposals are: — The selection of ethically defensible projects, with transparent monitoring. — Investment in infrastructure projects on a “pound for pound” basis, securing Palestinian ownership, commitment and protection for the projects. — Creating a seed fund to co-invest in a growing number of Palestinian start-ups. — Decommissioning private militias as investment proposals are implemented. 1.5 As such, it is essential for both the Palestinian Authority (PA) and the donor community to enact the full recommendations of the World Bank, as issued in February 2007. Specifically: — The PA must reduce the level of the civil service and salaries. — The PA should reconsider its pension policy, which is fiscally unmanageable. 3676421015 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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— Donors, who contribute directly or indirectly to the PA, must insist in advance on measures which install and sustain transparency and accountability. 1.6 It is time to apply accounting practices applied to all other domestic and overseas projects.

2. Background 2.1 Following the 1993 Oslo Accords, the EU decision to support the Palestinian Authority fiscally was not merely designed to balance American aid given to Israel. It was an attempt to prepare the Palestinians for statehood, securing good governance and a sound economy. From 2002 until mid 2007, 25% of PA expenditure has been financed by direct contributions from overseas, primarily from the EU and member states. This means that on-going PA activity is derived from European contributions. 2.2 The World Bank has continuously assessed the direct impact of Israeli control on the Palestinian territories. Between 1968 and 1999, economic growth as measured by real GDP in the Palestinian territories increased by 5.5% per annum on average (4.2% in Israel).1 2.3 Between, 1999 and 2006, citing Palestinian sources, the World Bank estimates2 that real incomes dropped by approximately 30%. As will be explained below, while the World Bank attributes the proximate cause of this decline to Israeli military activity and the retention of taxes collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority (PA), they identify a series of fundamental and structural reasons for the sharp decline in wealth. 2.4 It is impossible to know exactly how much money has already been given to the Palestinians in direct and indirect aid since 1993. Research eVorts of the FPC and others place the figure between $14 and $20 billion, including nearly US$2 billion from USAID.3 At the low end, that is around $1 billion a year or about $4,000 of aid per person—an astoundingly large amount, outstripping any other aid emergency, including Sudan and the Tsunami relief eVort. 2.5 The World Bank4 observes that at least US$ 1 billion has been received on average every year for the past five years, with the amounts increasing annually. 2.6 The EU has frequently claimed to be the largest contributor to the Palestinians. In September 2005, an announcement5 from the Commission noted that “taking the contributions of the Commission and the EU member states together, the European Union provides around ƒ500 million each year to promote stability, economic regeneration, and reform. 2.7 The question is how eVective has it been in reducing poverty and has it encouraged a strengthening of the peace process?

3. The Effectiveness of European Investment 3.1 Much of the EU aid has been distributed through a myriad of agencies within the EU such as ECH0,6 as well as external bodies like UNRWA and the WHO. From the second half of 2005, USAID and the EU have channeled greater eVorts through NGOs. 3.2 While the use of NGOs seems outwardly commendable, some of the beneficiaries of this public money— eg, ANERA, Badil and Adalah—have been linked to the political agenda of the PA as opposed to practicing wholly social goals. As the Strategic Studies Center7 in Gaza commented, 85% of NGOs in Gaza are wasting resources and not serving society as required. 3.3 UNRWA and other agencies can point to the construction of classrooms or health care centres, the payment of teachers’ salaries, or even the empowerment of specific local economic projects. 3.4 In parallel, there is an overwhelming appreciation that the large sums of money described in the previous section should have brought the donors and the Palestinian people a much higher return. For example, few families have moved out of the refugee camps, even when Israeli forces withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The FPC is concerned that significant levels of the investments cannot be traced. 1 http://www.erf.org.eg/9th%20annual%20conf/9th%20PDF%20Presented/Finance%20-%20Macro/FMP%20Sebastien%20Dessus.pdf 2 http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/PERVol1FebO7.pdf Pvi 3 http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/index.htm 4 Ibid P36. 5 http://eufunding.org/accountability/MissOutAgain.html 6 http://europa.eu.int/comm/echo/finances/index–en.htm 7 http://www.maannews.net/en/do.php?name%News&file%article&sid%10334 3676421015 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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3.5 It was because of such fears that over 30% of MEPs requested a thorough report. OLAF, the ombudsman of the EU, investigated ƒ391.3 million in direct assistance from the EU between November 2000 and February 2005. For reasons still to be explained, this public body was never allowed to publish its work. However, in a press release, OLAF observed that: “. . . risks of misuse of the PA budget and other resources cannot yet be excluded. This is primarily due to the fact that the internal and external audit capacity in the PA remains underdeveloped . . . There are consistent indications to support the hypothesis that it cannot be excluded that some of the assets of the PA may, have been used by some individuals for other than the intended purposes.” 3.6 Of issue to donors, particularly from Europe, is that this concern of the seepage of money is still prevalent today. One of the major recommendations of the World Bank report in February 2007—just as OLAF had hinted at two years previously—is the immediate improvement of internal controls with the PA financial system. 3.7 In other words, there is substantial evidence to suggest that European donations, whether disbursed directly or indirectly to the PA, via EU mechanisms or via the statutory bodies of various member states, have been diverted to other causes. The detailed examples of such misappropriation can be listed under three main categories: — corruption; — financial mismanagement; and — the support of a violent sub-strata. 3.8 The following sections rely heavily on evidence gathered by the World Bank and its support staV in Ramallah in the Palestinian territories. As part of the implementation of the Road Map, the eVorts of The World Bank have been accepted by most sides in the conflict.

3.9 Corruption 3.9.1 There are many manifestations of Palestinian financial misappropriation. In an interview with FPC,8 a year before the triumph of Hamas at the polls, Matt Rees, the former correspondent for Time Magazine in Jerusalem observed that if you ask a Palestinian what is the root of his problems, he will quickly use the word “occupation”. If you dig a little deeper, the phrases of nepotism, corruption and autocracy come rushing through. 3.9.2 At the top of the tree, public funds have supported an elite kleptocracy in conditions of opulence,9 particularly the late Chairman Arafat10 and his wife, Suha Arafat,11 in her current lifestyle. Similar accusations can be leveled at leading members of the Palestinian diaspora.12 3.9.3 The Palestinian Attorney-General, Ahmed al-Meghami, uncovered13 in February 2006 a trail of corruption involving expenditures of the Palestinian Authority (PA) involving dozens of oYcials. The total known value is $700 million, with a suspicion that the final figure will be larger. 3.9.4 On a day-to-day level, if the aid had been eVective in alleviating poverty, the World Bank would not have been moved to comment that: “55% of those who receive emergency assistance are not needy . . . 32% of the needy do not receive emergency assistance.”14 3.9.5 “Corruption hits hardest at the poorest in society,” Wrote Mary Robinson, the former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. In his final report in November 2005, Nigel Roberts, the then World Bank country director for Gaza and the West Bank, stated that: “Consistently, 80% or more of the Palestinian population is reported in opinion polls as believing the PA is seriously corrupt, and demanding change . . . Attacking corruption is very diYcult. It requires . . . transparency, clear penalties for violators, and a willingness to indict and punish those oYcials who have abused their oYce...” 8 http://www.eufunding.org/Realpolitik/MattReesIInterview.html 9 http://eufunding.org/accountability/Nielson1.html and http://eufunding.org/accountability/corruption.html 10 http://www.eufunding.org/terror/ProfitsOfTerror.html and http://eufunding.org/accountability/AbuIssah.html 11 http://www.eufunding.org/Realpolitik/ArafatsDeath.html Various agencies have reported in 2006 that Mrs Suha Arafat had left for Tunis after French prosecutors announced that they had launched an inquiry into the transfer of $9 million into her French bank accounts. 12 http://www.eufunding.org/accountability/Nielson7.html 13 http://eufunding.org/accountability/CorruptionInvestigation.html 14 http://www.eufunding.org/accountability/Nielson3.html 3676421015 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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3.10 Financial Mismanagement

3.10.1 In President Abbas’ first year as President in 2005: — The IMF oYcially commented that thousands of new militants had been integrated into the PA.15 — Abbas sanctioned a scheme for the distribution of salaries and a range of fringe benefits16 to terrorists imprisoned in Israeli cells. It is estimated that these payments have cost the internationally subsidised PA Treasury around $100 million over three years. — He approved a 13–20% wage increase in the run up to the Palestinian elections, decried by the IMF as a “substantial breach of the Wage Bill Containment Plan”.17 3.10.2 By November 2005, the World Bank observed that “The PA has created a serious fiscal crisis for itself with salary expenditure essentially out of control.” 3.10.3 Fifteen months later, the World Bank has returned to its criticisms.19 It does speak of certain progress in Palestinian reforms. However, the main focus is on many of the same maladies as reported by the FPC20in the Autumn of 2004; corruption, fraud, inflated pension schemes, ghosts and double dipping on the payroll, and others who do not perform the tasks they are nominally employed to do. (i) “The PA’s past irresponsible spending policies, have exacerbated the current crisis.” (ii) “For a decade or more, the PA has been able to avoid hard choices with regard to its public employment policies . . .” (iii) “In the public sector, employment is driven by a host of complex and powerful dynamics. Some are understandable . . . Others are less so, such as the extensive use of employment within the PA for purposes of political patronage, payments to non-existent and/or non-attending workers, and illicit payments to double dippers.” (iv) “New social benefit programs were launched and pension laws adopted which have also increased the burden of social transfers for the PA . . . When viewed as a ratio of average employee earnings, PA pension schemes are among the most generous in the world—far more generous than those in many donor countries . . . ” And in a comment on poor management by donor: (v) “Donor eVorts to contain the wage bill through vehicles such as the Public Financial Management Reform Trust . . . allowed the PA to expand recruitment as revenues went up.” 3.10.4 To quantify the damage of these policies, the World Bank estimated that a return to wage levels of mid 2005 would save nearly US$1 billion over five years. A further 25,000 reduction in PA personnel (civil and military) out of around 160,000 payees will have a similar eVect.

3.11 Funding an Arms Trade

3.11.1 On Saturday, 16 December 2006, President Abbas gave a full address in Ramallah. CBC news21 quoted Abbas as saying in referring to the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, Thank God, we liberated one important part of our lands. We received dozens of investment projects from Arab countries and Western countries and Japan and economic projects and tourism projects, but they never happened. Why? Because we are determined to fire rockets.22 Controversially, Abbas revealed here a prime rationale for the failure of foreign investment in Palestinian projects. The risk factor is simply too high. Money has been lost because of the fighting, both against Israel and inter-factional. Resources have either been diverted to financing weapons or have been sucked into political strife. 15 http://www.imf.org/external/np/dm/2005/121405.pdf page 6. 16 http://www.eufunding.org/Realpolitik/Nielson4.html 17 http://www.imf.org/external/np/dm/2005/121405.pdf (Page 4) 19 Executive summary of February 2007 report: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/PERVol1Feb07.pdf 20 http://eufunding.org/FPC2004Report.pdf 21 http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/12/16/palestinian-election-call.html 22 http://eufunding.org/accountability/AbbasHomeTruths.html 3676421015 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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3.11.2 The FPC has consistently protested that European funding of the Palestinians has contributed to increased violence against both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. If there is any lingering doubt as to whether the PA’s “underdeveloped” audit capacity had been exploited, Fuad Shubaki, who served as the finance chief in the Palestinian security forces, confessed.23 He admitted that Chairman Arafat had strategically used donor aid to finance military missions against Israeli citizens.

3.11.3 Similarly, consider the US$10024 million in Palestinian tax withholdings released by Israel in early this year. The government in Jerusalem was pressured to hand over the funds, with promises that the investment was to be used for humanitarian causes and for salaries in the social services sector. When the money was received, a senior aide of Abbas, Rafiq Husseini, revealed25 that Abbas will pay the security forces “from a fund of $152 million (ƒ118 milion), including $100 million (ƒ78 million) in tax rebates recently transferred by Israel . . . ”

3.11.4 Appendix D of the 2004 FPC report detailed over 25 direct instances of Palestinians involved in acts of terror and employed by the PA. At the very least, the FPC has detailed26 how many of these terrorist activities have a direct detrimental eVect on the Palestinian economy and the ability of the average Palestinian to live the semblance of a normal life.

3.11.5 Three more recent examples are presented here. They demonstrate how the pattern of abuse of Western taxpayer’s largesse has not altered course in the past two years. The violence is orchestrated from the top and is endemic. — In September 2005, Husam Khader, a Fatah member in the previous Legislative Assembly, pleaded guilty27 to transferring PA finances to the Al-Aksa Brigades for military operations. — On 20 February 2006, the Israeli security service’s released details of the capture Tanzim military operatives in the Bethlehem area, including the leader of the group, Jabr Fouaz Eid Akhras. They had repeatedly attacked Israeli neighbourhoods in the south of Jerusalem. The salaries of the Tanzim members are paid for by the PA. — The attempted attack on the Karni28 crossing point with Israel on 26 April 2006 was directed by Mamtaz Dougmoush. According to Israel military intelligence, “Dougmoush routinely participated in meetings of senior Hamas leaders, in which Hamas authorised Dougmoush’s planned terror activities. Hamas also supplies weaponry, professional guidance and assistance in terror training for Dougmoush’s cell.”

3.11.6 For further confirmation of Palestinian diversion of western donations for military purposes, it is necessary to read the conclusions of the World Bank: The challenge of reducing the burden of wage expenditures for the security services will be a particularly diYcult one. As noted in Chapter 3 on civil service reform, even at current staYng levels of around 65,000 (excluding trainees), the PA security services are unaVordable and the value for money received from these forces is poor.

3.11.7 The use of PA budgets, supported by various donor schemes, to fund a violent infrastructure extends well beyond the direct funding of militant salaries.29 The generous pension schemes alluded to above, together with the Palestinian Prisoner AVairs ministry’s annual budget of around $50 million, routes public funds to provide a social safety net for those terrorists imprisoned, maimed or killed in the line of their “duties” of attacking civilians on all sides.

3.11.8 Instead of bringing peace and prosperity, aid is being used for violence. It pays for the rifles and rockets pointed against both Palestinian and Israeli civilians. It is this madness, through enhanced controls of donors, which needs to be brought to a swift end. 23 http://www.washtimes.com/upi/20060517-123004-4042r.htm 24 This is money collected by the government of Israel on behalf of the PA, under the terms of the 1993 Oslo Accords. Press reports say that Israel is currently withholding a further US$500 million. It is understood that the funds will be handed over, when the PA can prove that the sums will not be diverted to Hamas or fund actions against Israeli civilians. 25 http://www.eufunding.org/terror/Abbas.html 26 http://www.eufunding.org/Realpolitik/Nielson1.html 27 http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res%F30A12FF3E550C768CDDA00894DD404482 28 Karni is an important crossing point for Palestinian workers looking for employment in Israel and for the transfer of goods between the two sides. Due to constant attacks, it has remained closed for many weeks, which has also hampered humanitarian eVorts in Gaza. 29 http://www.eufunding.org/Realpolitik/Nielson4.htm1 3676421015 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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4. A Constructive Direction for the EU and,Other Donors 4.1 The World Bank has established itself as a credible, neutral and sober voice of reason amongst the horrors and inconsistencies of the region. In its 13 pages of recommendations, the World Bank is quick to recognise that Israel has a key role to play in helping to create a stable environment. The overwhelming remainder of suggestions directly targets the PA and donors together. 4.2 To paraphrase its executive summary, the World Bank has spent over seven years warning of the financial and fiscal excesses of the Palestinian Authority (PA). And again, in February 2007, it demands that aggregate expenditure must begin to match revenues and that the composition of the expenditures needs to relate to basic social issues. This involves: — Reducing the level of the civil service and cutting salaries to the levels of 2005. — Formulating a realistic pension policy. — The restoration of reforms of Salam Fayyad. — Greater transparency and accountability, backed up by proper internal audits. 4.3 In parallel, the World Bank sees sustained donor support as essential. However, the assistance is not to be given carte blanche. Donors, such as the EU, are called upon to ensure that their aid will not go to waste yet again and that taxpayers’ generosity is not further abused. In return for continuing to transfer sums to the PA, donors must insist on the implementation of wide structural reforms in administration. These include: — Help the PA to institute controls on spending, including the wage bill. — Ensure that monies are channeled through the PA accounting system, as opposed to the President’s oYce, where the investment cannot be tracked. — Bring the accounts into line with international standards so that transfers can be properly monitored. 4.4 The underlying theme is that donors can no longer invest in the PA as in the past. This has sent the wrong signals to policy makers, encouraging financial mismanagement. In the future, monies should be released as the PA demonstrates consistently that it is developing a system of open government, designed for the benefit of a nation and not elite groups. 4.5 The FPC is encouraged by the recommendations of the World Bank. In a policy paper submitted to the UK Treasury in November 2005, the FPC oVered four concrete suggestions to bolster the Palestinian economy, similar to those now oVered by the World Bank.

Recommendation No 1: Future help needs to be delivered in a transparent and accountable manner, directed towards ethically defensible projects. An independent and public monitoring system should immediately be introduced for all funds provided to the Palestinians. It is diYcult to justify pouring more resources into politicised NGOs or even UNRWA. As former UNRWA Commissioner-General, Peter Hansen, declared in 2005: “There is no doubt that, at some point, the Palestinian Authority should take over all of UNRWA’s capacity in Gaza and the West Bank.”

Recommendation No 2: When considering infrastructure projects, donors are advised to consider the “Pound for Pound” concept. It will also encourage the local populace to take pride in its own economic revival and not rely on long-term charity. The alternative was exemplified when Mr Wolfensohn sought overseas investors to purchase the greenhouses in Gaza left by the Israeli settlers. Once the Israelis had ceased to protect the region, Palestinians ransacked the agricultural facilities. It can be surmised that if the investors had included local personalities, such malicious waste may not have occurred.

Recommendation No 3: The EU should consider the creation of a seed fund to co-invest in a growing number of Palestinian start-ups. The ExpoTech 2005 in Ramallah, sponsored by the Palestinian Information Technology Association, demonstrated that there are clear opportunities, for investment, which will encourage both employment opportunities and long-term economic growth. 3676421015 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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Recommendation No 4:

All investment recommendations should carry a pre-requisite of decommissioning of militias and private armies. Both in Northern Ireland and in Afghanistan, this stipulation has provided a greater sense of internal stability for the local population. It has also decreased the potential for distortions in the judicial, financial and democratic processes. March 2007

Memorandum by NGO Monitor NGO Monitor was founded to promote critical debate and accountability of organisations that claim to encourage universal human rights and provide humanitarian assistance in the Arab-Israeli conflict zone. Our objective is to publish detailed analyses and reports on the activities of the NGO community, for the benefit of policy makers, journalists, philanthropic organisations and the general public. NGO Monitor has over 10,000 subscribers to its weekly reports and monthly digests, and averages over 1000 daily unique visits on its website. NGO Monitor1 has compiled this report specifically for the House of Lords Sub-Committee C Inquiry into “The European Union and the Middle East Peace Process,” based on information presented on the NGO Monitor website.

Summary of NGO Monitor’s Submission

NGO Monitor’s detailed research on EU support for non-governmental organisations (NGOs) involved the Arab-Israeli conflict demonstrates that many recipients violate the EU’s funding guidelines and act in opposition to the EU’s support for the Peace Process. This research is highly pertinent to the Committee’s discussion on the “eVectiveness of existing instruments in achieving EU objectives” whether “the EU’s policies and instruments [are] coherent” and “how well adapted are the . . . Euro-Mediterranean (Euromed) Partnership to supporting the EU’s policies on the MEPP.” This report details how a number of European Union (EU) funded Palestinian and Israeli NGOs, persistently campaign against Israel in international forums, employ biased rhetoric aimed at de-legitimising Israel. Specifically, EU support for the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, War on Want, MIFTAH and the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD) contradicts stated EU policies of supporting “less politicised, more practical activities which will promote communication and understanding.”

Introduction

1. The European Union (EU) is the largest single donor to the Palestinian Authority (PA) and is particularly active in supporting politicised Palestinian NGOs. Many recipient NGOs may well be vital and worthwhile— this report does not attempt to assess or address the eYciency or impact of such aid programs. In keeping with NGO Monitor’s mission, this report focuses on the politicisation of certain EU-funded NGOs, especially those claiming to promote human rights. As will be demonstrated, many of these NGOs display a clear bias, lobby against Israel and promote Palestinian positions in keeping with the 2001 Durban strategy2. This violates the EU’s own guidelines for NGO funding which stipulate “less politicised, more practical activities which will promote communication and understanding.” Some of these groups actively oppose oYcial EU policy and regularly refer euphemistically to terrorism. 2. EU-funded NGOs and related frameworks examined in this report include, the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network3 (EMHRN), MIFTAH4, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights5 (PCHR), the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions6 (ICHAD), War on Want7, the East Jerusalem YMCA8, Adalah9, the Treatment and Rehabilitation Center for Victims of Torture10, the Arab Association for Human Rights11 (HRA), HaMoked12 and Machsom Watch13. 3. EU funding for Palestinian NGOs must meet certain guidelines, as specified in the National Financing Plan 2004 for the West Bank and Gaza14. This document states that the EU should support “local and international civil society initiatives which promote peace, tolerance and non-violence” and “ideas . . . for achieving the two- state solution.” Crucially, it goes on to state that the program aims to promote initiatives which entail “less politicised, more practical activities which will promote communication and understanding.” As illustrated, these guidelines are breached by the EU’s support of a number of NGOs. 3676421016 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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EU Funding Channels 4. In 2005, ƒ7.5 billion was disbursed through the Europe Aid Cooperation OYce15 (AIDCO) which is an oYce of the European Commission. ƒ279 million of this goes to the Palestinian Authority16, making the EU the largest single contributor17 of international aid to the Palestinians. A significant proportion of this money is channeled through NGOs, humanitarian aid and development organisations as well as groups claiming to promote human rights. 5. Several diVerent bodies which disburse the EU’s humanitarian and development funds. The structure and organisation of the programs is complex and non-transparent, and there were considerable problems accessing funding information from before 2004. 6. The European Initiative for Democracy and Human Rights (EIDHR) is one of the principal EU agencies responsible for financing Israeli and Palestinian NGOs. EIDHR is a branch of AIDCO and claims to “promote and support human rights and democracy.” In 2004, EIDHR had a budget of ƒ125 million18 and a number of the NGOs mentioned in this report are funded from this program. The details of EIDHR’s funding programs for 2005 and 2006 are not yet available as the funding allocations for both years were combined and the details will only be made available in 2007.19 7. The other main source of EU funding to NGOs in the region is the Partnership for Peace Programme (PfPP) which is part of the MEDA framework.20 MEDA21 is a major branch of AIDCO and its funds are used to implement the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership22, (also known as the Barcelona Process) which is a framework of political, economic and social relations between the member states of the EU and the countries of the southern Mediterranean. Between 2000 and 2006, MEDA disbursed ƒ5.35 billion23. In 2003 specifically, MEDA committed ƒ600 million for its various regional programs.

Recipient NGOs

Palestinian Center for Human Rights 8. The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights24 (PCHR) received over ƒ293,00025 from EIDHR in 2004. Despite some valuable projects documenting intra-Palestinian human rights abuses, including a campaign to abolish the death penalty in the PA,26 PCHR routinely erases context to demonise Israel in its publications and lobbies against the country in international forums such as the UN. 9. PCHR has Special Consultative Status27 under the UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) and has used this platform to promote political warfare against Israel that fuel the conflict. PCHR provided written statements to the Commission on Human Rights (Fifty-Eighth session). The submissions of January 200228 and February 2002 used extremist rhetoric such as “ethnic cleansing”, “apartheid” and “extreme racism”, and called for the suspension of the Euro-Israeli Association Agreement. Both statements concluded by calling on the international community to impose “comprehensive arms, oil, economic and trade sanctions and embargoes” and “downgrade diplomatic relations including sports, education, academic, cultural and other initiatives”—policies which the EU does not endorse. PCHR has also signed the petition calling for the academic boycott of Israel.29 10. PCHR regularly describes Israel’s policies as “apartheid”30 and accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing31 and collective punishment. In a press release of 24 April 200632, PCHR described Palestinian terrorists as “activists”, and in a “special report” of September 200633 referred to Israeli operations against “Palestinian resistance activists.” NGO Monitor reported34 that in a press release of March 200435, PCHR described the killing of Hamas founder and leader Ahmed Yassin as “state-sponsored terrorism”, despite Yassin’s culpability in the deaths of scores of Israeli civilians.36 11. The objectives of the EIDHR program37 state that the project aims at “reinforcing the engagement of civil society in conflict prevention and resolution”. These goals are not furthered by EU support for PCHR.

MIFTAH 12. In 2004, MIFTAH38 received $37,750 through Keshev, an organisation funded by the EU.39 All organisations which will be indirect recipients of EU funds are listed in the contract between the EU and the directly funded NGO.40 13. MIFTAH is a political lobbying group which claims to increase “global awareness and knowledge of Palestinian realities by providing policy analysis, strategic briefings and position papers.” Despite claiming to be non-partisan41, MIFTAH is extremely politicised, uses Durban strategy rhetoric, characterises terrorists as “activists” and “freedom fighters,” and promotes political campaigns. 3676421016 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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14. MIFTAH’s politicisation is evinced by the membership of its Board of Trustees.42 Hanan Ashrawi, is the head of the Executive Committee, founder and first Secretary-General of Miftah. She is also a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC—the Palestinian parliament) and is a prominent Palestinian spokesperson. Other members of Miftah’s board who are also current PLC legislators include Mustafa Barghouti who is also a former Palestinian Presidential candidate and Ziad Abu-Amr. 15. In December 2004, MidEastWeb sent a letter to MIFTAH43 that exposed some of MIFTAH’s work as fabrications. MIFTAH invented interviews with Ariel Sharon and quoted him as saying44 “I vow that I’ll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area . . . I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian woman is a slave for Jews.” These and numerous other “quotations” were found to be completely false. Other quotations attributed to Sharon were found to be misattributed and taken out of context. 16. MIFTAH routinely describes Israel as an apartheid state45 and characterises Palestinian terrorists as “activists.”46 In an op-ed on the MIFTAH website on 2 August 200647, the author claimed that Israel was deliberately targeting Lebanese civilians. The author wrote that Lebanese civilian deaths “are part of a systematic policy carried out by the Israeli military establishment, approved by the highest political echelons, aimed at squashing, silencing and obliterating any voice of rebellion, anyone who dares stand up to the beast.” In an editorial of 9 June 200648 MIFTAH described Jamal Abu Samhadana49, the leader of the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), as a “Palestinian freedom-fighter.” PRC is responsible for numerous terrorist attacks50 against Israeli civilians, including missile attacks aimed at Israeli cities, and is suspected of having carried out an attack on a US convoy in Gaza in October 200351 which killed three security guards and severely wounded a US diplomat. 17. MIFTAH has described suicide bombings against civilians as “resistance”. An article of 5 July 2006 about Palestinian women during the last six years of violence stated that “several young women also decided to join the ranks of the resistance movement”, went on to describe the first Palestinian female suicide bombing and commented that “this marked the beginning of a string of Palestinian women dedicated to sacrificing their lives for the cause.” 18. MIFTAH promotes a number of political campaigns including a petition to “End the Israeli Occupation”52 and the “National Initiative to Resist the Wall.”53 MIFTAH’s extremely politicised activities are in direct violation of the explicit EU funding guidelines.

War on Want 19. War on Want54 (WoW) states that it receives funds from the EU55 although no further details of this funding are supplied by either WoW itself or the EU. WoW is a British NGO supposedly devoted to alleviating poverty in developing countries. However, it also runs a particularly virulent political campaign against Israel and has called for sanctions against Israel, lobbied against its security barrier and participated in the Israel divestment campaign. 20. In a briefing paper entitled “Time for Sanctions Against Israel”56, WoW stated that “War on Want calls on the UK government to press for an immediate suspension of the EU-Israel Association Agreement. WoW also provides a downloadable petition57 form to send to U.K. Prime Minister Blair stating that “We call on the Prime Minister to state his support for sanctions against Israel now, and to ensure their introduction as an immediate priority.” 21. WoW campaigned for the Church of England58 to divest its investments in Caterpillar and also called on the Methodist Church of Great Britain59 to “divest from companies supporting Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine.” 22. The UK Charity Commission warned WoW in August 2005 about its political activities60 posing a threat to its charitable status. A new investigation of WoW was launched by the Commission in July 200661 and as of February, 2007, has yet to be completed. 23. WoW also uses politically charged rhetoric when discussing Israeli policies. The terms “war crimes”62 and “collective punishment”63 are frequently used in WoW’s reports, petitions and press releases and War on Want consistently labels Israeli policy as apartheid, especially in relation to Israel’s security barrier. Numerous articles talk of a “campaign of apartheid”64, “the apartheid nature of the West Bank”65, and the “apartheid wall.”66 In WoW’s documentation it invariably fails to mention Palestinian terrorism and argues that Israel’s security concerns do not justify the infringement of Palestinian human rights. 24. The EU’s funding for this NGO is particularly troubling, given its political campaigning and incitement. 3676421016 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

25. Under the Partnership for Peace Programme, the EU gave the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD) ƒ472,00067 in 2005. ICAHD68 states that its goal is “to oppose and resist Israeli demolition of Palestinian houses in the Occupied Territories” but the scope of its advocacy and lobbying extends much further. 26. ICHAD campaigns69 for boycott divestment and sanctions against Israel and has consistently labeled Israel an “apartheid” state70. As reported by NGO Monitor71,JeV Halper, ICAHD’s Director, asserted in a June 2004 statement72 that “the Palestinians’ need to resort to terrorism raises questions of fundamental fairness. One cannot expect a people to suVer oppression forever, to abrogate their own human rights in favor of those of others.” ICAHD has also endorsed a solution that would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state73. Halper said in a paper74 given at the “United Nations International Conference on Civil Society in Support of the Palestinian People” in New York in September 2003, that “the stage is thus set for the next phase of the struggle for a just resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: an international campaign for a single state.” As in the case of EMHRN, the EU’s financial support for this NGO actively undermines its own foreign policy objectives as well as violating its NGO funding guidelines,75 which mandate that EU funding must support “achieving the two-state solution in accordance with the Road Map.”

Euro Mediterranean Human Rights Network

27. The Euro Mediterranean Human Rights Network76 (EMHRN) received ƒ1 million from EIDHR in 200477. EMHRN is an umbrella organisation for NGOs in the Euro-Mediterranean region. It frequently calls for political action to be taken against Israel and issues one-sided condemnations of Israeli responses to terrorism. EMHRN provides a platform for and promotes the views of its partner NGOs, which include78 the extremely politicised Palestinian Centre for Human Rights79 (discussed above) and Al Mezan80, which repeatedly condemn Israel army (IDF) operations, while ignoring the context of terrorism. The politically active NGO, Al Haq81, is also an EMHRN partner. 28. EMHRN’s political lobbying is well illustrated by its persistent call for the suspension of the EU-Israel Association Agreement, which provides for trade concessions in certain markets. In a letter of October 200282 to Javier Solana, then EU Foreign AVairs Minister, EMHRN called on the EU to suspend the Agreement, due to “Israel’s indiscriminate, excessive and disproportionate use of force . . . Willful killings, arbitrary executions and targeted assassinations.” In November 2003, EMHRN again wrote to Solana and EU foreign ministers83 calling for a suspension. 29. In August 2005, EMHRN issued a report entitled “Israel’s Human Rights Behaviour, 2004–2005.”84 The report condemned Israel’s construction of its security barrier and its security policies in the West Bank and Gaza. The report specifically censured the restrictions on movement in the West Bank but failed to mention the Palestinian terrorism which is the cause of these measures. It also stated that ”the provision and extension of economic privileges and trade agreements should be made dependent on Israel’s human rights behaviour”, with the implication from the report that such trade privileges should be suspended, in line with EMHRN’s consistent call for such action. 30. In addition, EMHRN issued a press release on 12 April 2006 entitled “Should the Palestinians be Punished?”85, which stated that the EU decision to freeze international aid to the Palestinian Authority after the election of Hamas “displayed a permanent double reasoning as, at the same time, it tolerates the multiple violations of Human Rights which the Israeli government is guilty of committing.” EMHRN said nothing about the violence and terrorism employed by Hamas nor did it call on Hamas to adopt the demands of the Quartet to renounce violence and recognise Israel. The statement called on the “European Union [to] reestablish its financial aid” to the PA, in eVect creating a situation where an EU-funded NGO is using that funding to lobby against stated EU policy.86

East Jerusalem YMCA

31. In 2005, the Europe Aid Cooperation OYce (AIDCO) provided ƒ500,000 to the East Jerusalem YMCA87 for its Vocational Training Program88, 89 Such support is problematic as money is fungible, and all EU funds contribute to the status and financial capacity of this extremely politicised NGO that promotes the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions Campaign against Israel90 and has also signed a petition calling for an academic boycott of Israel.91 3676421016 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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32. The Vocational Training Program provides education in various fields including construction, plumbing, auto-mechanics and computing. However the East Jerusalem YMCA also runs an Advocacy program92, which conducts, among others, the “Free Palestine Campaign”.93 The Advocacy program also operates a number of political activities94 such as organised tours to the Palestinian territories for international YMCA branches and visits abroad by Palestinian youth, “to communicate first-hand experience of Palestinian life under occupation . . . ongoing oppression and injustice.” The “explanation” of the program’s “theological roots” employs classic anti-Semitic themes. The program’s description says that “Jesus was crucified with the people who were branded as ‘terrorists’ by the authorities of his time. The Palestinians are currently crucified, humiliated, and denied their human rights and dignity.” The promotion of such theories contradicts the YMCA’s alleged commitment95 to “universal values of human dignity, peace, and justice.” 33. The Joint Advocacy Initiative96 (JAI) is also a program of the East Jerusalem YMCA. It undertakes specifically political activities against Israel. It helps coordinate a weekly demonstration97 in the West Bank town of Al Khader and distributes t-shirts saying “Isolate the Israeli Apartheid.” A highly contentious research paper was published by the JAI entitled “Palestinian Christians in Struggle”98 which claims that “the decline of this [Christian] population [in Israel and the Palestinian territories] is a highly political phenomenon in that the Israeli state considers Palestinian Christians to be a threat to their continued occupation of Palestine.” There was no mention of the ongoing oppression of Christians under the PA99.

Adalah 34. In 2004, EIDHR allocated ƒ513,000 to Adalah100. The EU has consistently funded Adalah101, a group which provides legal advocacy for Arab citizens of Israel, but frequently attacks Israel on a political basis and participates in political campaigning. 35. In a newsletter of May 2004102, Adalah compared Israel to apartheid and denounced Israeli security policies while failing to mention the Palestinian terror which prompted those security measures. 36. Adalah also accused Israel of war-crimes103 in Jenin during Operation Defensive Shield, a claim incongruent with the facts104 and discounted by numerous commentators. On 13 August 2006105, Adalah sent a letter to the Attorney General of Israel, Menachem Mazuz, arguing that Israel’s military operations in Lebanon were war crimes and compared the IDF actions aimed at destroying the Hezbollah terrorist organisation with war crimes committed during the break-up of Yugoslavia in the early 1990s. The EU is a major donor to Adalah, and is therefore well-placed to pressure the NGO to abandon its politicisation or cease any further funding for it.

Treatment and Rehabilitation Center for Victims of Torture 37. In 2004, EIDHR gave106 the Treatment and Rehabilitation Center for Victims of Torture (TRCVT) ƒ996,000. TRCVT says107 that it was established to “to provide psychosocial services to survivors of politically-motivated torture and violence” but also undertakes political advocacy and campaigning. 38. In an extremely biased and historically inaccurate statement of June/July 2006108, TRCVT called for the release of Palestinian politicians who were arrested after Hamas’ abduction of an Israeli soldier from sovereign Israeli territory on 25 June 2006.109 In the document, TRCVT states that “the Palestinian people have been suVering under the Israeli occupation for more than 58 years”, a statement implying that all of Israel, not just territory captured in the 1967 War, is “occupied” territory. The statement alleges that the arrested politicians “most probably will become a victim of torture.” In another statement of July/August 2006110, TRCVT characterises Israeli actions in the Lebanon War as “random bombing of the Lebanese infrastructure and killing of tens of Lebanese citizens,” in response to “a military action carried out by the Lebanese resistance of Hezbollah.”

HRA—Arab Association for Human Rights 39. The Partnership for Peace Programme provided the Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA) with ƒ95,000 in 2005111. The HRA112 states that “our mandate is the protection and promotion of international human-rights standards of the Palestinian Arab minority in Israel.” However, HRA often exceeds this mandate, addressing wider political concerns of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, using inflammatory language to vilify Israel. 40. For example, on 31 July 2006, HRA issued a press statement113 entitled “Israel’s war crimes, massacres and blatant breaches of international law continue unhindered in Lebanon and Gaza.” The press release talks of “violent massacres” and “collective punishment” and states that “more than 60 civilians” were killed by an 3676421016 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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Israeli Air-force attack on the Lebanese village of Qana. The figures provided by the Red Cross on 30 July114 stated that 28 people had been killed, but HRA has not issued a correction. The Press release also attacked the EU stating that it should use the Association Agreement between the two states to pressure Israel for a ceasefire in Lebanon. 41. Another HRA press release of 15 March 2006115 condemned Israel’s seizure of Ahmed Saadat, the leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) who is suspected by Israel of having ordered the assassination of Cabinet Minister Rehavam Zeevi in 2001. HRA makes no mention that the arrest was prompted by Hamas threats to release Saadat from prison. HRA called the seizure “illegal”, accused the U.S. and U.K. of complicity in the operation and called on the international community to “put pressure on Israel to retract from this illegal action and to return the prisoners to PA jurisdiction.”

HaMoked 42. Under the Partnership for Peace Programme116, HaMoked117 was given ƒ93,000 in 2005. HaMoked’s aims, as registered with Israel’s Registrar of Non-profit Organizations, are to “provide assistance to persons who have fallen victim to acts of violence, abuse or deprivation of basic rights by governmental authorities (including local government).” Hamoked’s website specifies more directly that its aim is to “assist Palestinians whose rights are violated by the Israeli authorities or as a result of Israeli policy.” 43. Its 2002 report118 “Human rights violations by Israel against Palestinians in the course of 2002” runs to nearly 100 pages but fails to mention the widespread Palestinian terrorism of this period which led to the death of hundreds of Israelis. By divorcing this crucial context of Israel’s counter-terrorist measures from its human rights analysis, HaMoked illustrates its disregard for the right of Israelis to live without the threat of violence. 44. HaMoked has also participated in political campaigning. In September 2004119, HaMoked took part in the “United Nations International Conference of Civil Society in Support of the Palestinian People.” This was a conference of the U.N. Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People120,a highly politicised body of the U.N. which lobbies exclusively for “Palestinian rights”. At the conference, the Committee resolved121 to “pressure Israel and our own Governments to move towards strict enforcement of the Advisory Opinion of the ICJ” which called for Israel’s security barrier to be removed. The conference also resolved to “promote a sporting, cultural and economic boycott”122 of Israel. 45. In July 2006, HaMoked demanded that Israel open the Karni goods crossing into Gaza but did not acknowledge the severe security risks involved in operating the crossing. Since 2000 Palestinian terrorist groups have persistently attacked this crossing123 causing numerous deaths and injuries. On 14 January 2005124, Palestinian terrorists blew a whole in the wall of the crossing, shot and killed six Israeli civilians and wounded five. On 14 March 2004, the crossing was used to smuggle terrorists out of Gaza who then blew themselves up in the Israeli city of Ashdod, killing 10 people125 and wounding 16. HaMoked’s failure to even mention Israeli security concerns when calling for sanctions illustrates the political bias. 46. Given the EU’s influence as a donor and in order to maintain the EUs neutrality, the Partnership for Peace program must pressure HaMoked to avoid such political lobbying.

Machsom Watch 47. In 2005, under the Partnership for Peace program126, the EU gave Machsom Watch127 ƒ60,000. Machsom Watch states128 that its goals are “to monitor the behaviour of [Israeli] soldiers and police at checkpoints” and that “the group is politically pluralistic within the context of opposition to the occupation.” Machsom Watch reports are often emotive and politically charged, and the reliability of its claims is questionable. 48. A notable example of the group’s political stance against Israeli policy occurred on 9 November 2004129 when a Palestinian arrived at a checkpoint with a violin case and was filmed playing his violin. Machsom Watch alleged that he had been forced to play by the soldiers manning the checkpoint to humiliate him. The IDF denied this130, stating that the man was only asked to open his violin-case and started playing of his own accord. Members of Machsom Watch present at the incident admitted later that they did not hear131 what the soldier in question said to the violinist.

Conclusion 49. The NGOs mentioned in this report are all compromised by their politicisation, which puts them at odds with EU funding guidelines. MIFTAH, PCHR, ICAHD and War on Want actively promote the Durban Strategy of demonising Israel through manipulation of human rights rhetoric, and boycott and divestment campaigns. Combined with their intense political activity, extremely partisan approach to the conflict and euphemistic references to terrorism, they should be excluded from any future EU funding programs. 3676421016 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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50. The EU should also pressure the other organisations mentioned in this report, particularly, HRA and the East Jerusalem YMCA, to adopt a more neutral stance to the conflict, which acknowledges internal Palestinian responsibility and Israeli security needs in any human rights analysis. In order to better advance the EU’s goals of promoting tolerance and peace, a reconsideration of the goals of EMHRN is also necessary. This network’s agenda is pre-determined by its partner NGOs, whose activities often contradict the stated goals of EMHRN and the EU. 13 March 2007

References 1 www.ngo-monitor.org 2 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/durban–conference– 3 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/euro–mediterranean–human–rights–network–emhrn– 4 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/miftah 5 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/palestinian–center–for–human–rights–pchr– 6 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/israel–committee–against–house–demolitions–icahd– 7 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/war–on–want–uk– 8 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/ymca–ywca–east–jerusalem– 9 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/adalah 10 http://www.trc-pal.org/etemplate.php?id%21 11 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/arab–association–of–human–rights–hra– 12 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/hamoked–center–for–the–defense–of–the–individual 13 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/machsom–watch 14 http://www.delwbg.ec.europa.eu/en/cooperatio–development/plan2004.pdf 15 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/europeaid/index–en.htm 16 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/external–relations/gaza/intro/index.htm<2.3 17 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/external–relations/mepp/index.htm 18 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/europeaid/projects/eidhr/eidhr–en.htm 19 Confirmed by the EC Technical Assistance OYce for the West Bank and Gaza Strip in correspondence of 16.10.06 20 Confirmed by the EC Technical Assistance OYce for the West Bank and Gaza Strip in correspondence of 28.9.06 21 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/external–relations/euromed/meda.htm 22 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/external–relations/euromed/bd.htm 23 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/external–relations/euromed/meda.htm 24 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/palestinian–center–for–human–rights–pchr– 25 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/europeaid/projects/eidhr/cfp–2004/region–meda–2004.pdf 26 http://www.pchrgaza.org/special/death.htm 27 http://www.pchrgaza.org/about–pchr.htm 28 http://www.pchrgaza.org/Interventions/chr2002–item5.pdf

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40 Confirmed by the EC Delegation to the State of Israel in correspondence with NGO Monitor, 19 September 2006 41 http://www.miftah.org/AboutUs.cfm 42 http://www.miftah.org/AboutUs.cfm 43 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%594 44 http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x–context%2&x–outlet%73&x–article%766 45 http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId%10894&CategoryId%32 46 http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId%10195&CategoryId%2 47 http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId%11031&CategoryId%3 48 http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId%10500&CategoryId%3 49 http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam–multimedia/English/eng–n/pdf/samhadana–e.pdf 50 http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam–multimedia/English/eng–n/pdf/samhadana–e.pdf 51 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle–east/5062360.stm 52 http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId%1438&CategoryId%15 53 http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId%2655&CategoryId%15 54 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/war–on–want–uk– 55 http://www.waronwant.org/?lid%12894 56 http://www.waronwant.org/download.php?id%274 57 http://www.waronwant.org/download.php?id%275 58 http://www.waronwant.org/?lid%10325 59 http://www.waronwant.org/?lid%10277 60 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%327 61 http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid%1150885919939&pagename%JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull 62 http://www.waronwant.org/?lid%12581 63 http://www.waronwant.org/?lid%4207 64 http://www.waronwant.org/?lid%4375 65 http://www.waronwant.org/?lid%10204 66 http://www.waronwant.org/?lid%4375 67 http://www.eu-del.org.il/english/Award%20notification%20for%20website.doc 68 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/israel–committee–against–house–demolitions–icahd– 69 http://www.icahd.org/eng/news.asp?menu%5&submenu%1&item%218 70 http://www.icahd.org/eng/campaigns.asp?menu%4&submenu%4 71 http://www.icahd.org/eng/campaigns.asp?menu%4&submenu%4 72 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%223 73 http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu%6&submenu%2&article%132 74 http://www.mediaisland.org/ modules.php?op%modload&name%News&file%article&sid%57&mode%thread&order%0&thold%0 75 http://www.delwbg.ec.europa.eu/en/cooperatio–development/plan2004.pdf 76 http://www.delwbg.ec.europa.eu/en/cooperatio–development/plan2004.pdf 77 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/europeaid/projects/eidhr/cfp–2004/region–meda–2004.pdf 78 http://www.emhrn.net/pages/58

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87 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/ymca–ywca–east–jerusalem– 88 http://www.ej-ymca.org/site/Display-Doc.cfm?DocID%59 89 Document provided to NGO Monitor by the EC Technical Assistance OYce for the West Bank and Gaza Strip 90 http://www.jai-pal.org/content.php?page%173 91 http://www.al-awda.org/academicboycott.html 92 http://www.ej-ymca.org/site/Display-Cat.cfm?CatId%16&Main%2 93 http://www.ej-ymca.org/site/Display-Sub.cfm?SubID%7 94 http://www.ej-ymca.org/site/Display-Doc.cfm?DocID%73 95 http://www.ej-ymca.org/site/Display-Cat.cfm?CatId%1&main%1 96 http://www.jai-pal.org/content.php?page%173 97 http://www.jai-pal.org/content.php?page%377 98 http://www.jai-pal.org/files/Palestinian–Christians–in–Struggle.pdf 99 http://www.jcpa.org/christian-persecution.htm 100 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/europeaid/projects/eidhr/cfp–2004/region–meda–2004.pdf 101 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/adalah 102 http://www.adalah.org/newsletter/eng/may04/may04.html 103 http://www.adalah.org/newsletter/eng/jul04/ar1.pdf 104 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%84 105 http://www.adalah.org/eng/pressreleases/pr.php?file%06–08–16 106 http://ec.europa.eu/comm/europeaid/projects/eidhr/cfp–2004/region–meda–2004.pdf 107 http://www.trc-pal.org/etemplate.php?id%1 108 http://www.trc-pal.org/etemplate.php?id%21 109 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%807 110 http://www.trc-pal.org/etemplate.php?id%22 111 http://www.eu-del.org.il/english/Award%20notification.doc 112 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/arab–association–of–human–rights–hra– 113 http://www.arabhra.org/publications/pressrel/Doc/pressrel060731.doc 114 http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/lebanon-news-300706 115 http://www.arabhra.org/publications/pressrel/PDF/pressrel060315.pdf 116 http://www.eu-del.org.il/english/Award%20notification.doc 117 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/hamoked–center–for–the–defense–of–the–individual 118 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%971 119 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%437 120 http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpalnew/committee.htm 121 http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/517d4e09e3fdc2a585256dfe00593312/ 689e6f6c0747f41d85256f15004db1c1!OpenDocument 122 http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/dpr/WORKSHOP%20ICJ%20AO.pdf 123 http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/eng–n/html/karni–020506e.htm 124 http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/13/gaza.bombing/index.html 125 http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-!Obstacle"to"Peace/Terror!Groups/ Opening!of!the!Karni!crossing!1-June-2004.htm 126 http://www.eu-del.org.il/english/Award%20notification%20for%20website.doc 127 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/machsom–watch 128 http://www.machsomwatch.org/eng/aboutUsEng.asp?link%aboutUsEng&lang%eng 129 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%605 130 http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id%23001 131 http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id%605 3676421017 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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Memorandum by Palestinian Media Watch (PMW)

About Palestinian Media Watch Palestinian Media Watch was established in 1996 to gain an understanding of Palestinian society through the monitoring of the Palestinian Arabic language media and schoolbooks. Palestinian Media Watch analyses Palestinian Authority culture and society from numerous perspectives, including studies on summer camps, poetry, schoolbooks, religious ideology, crossword puzzles, and more. Palestinian Media Watch has been playing the critical role of documenting the contradictions between the image the Palestinians present to the world in English and the messages to their own people in Arabic. Itamar Marcus is director of Palestinian Media Watch. Mr Marcus was also the Director of Research for the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace from 1998—2000, writing studies on Palestinian, Jordanian, and Syrian school textbooks. He was also a member of the Israeli delegation to the Trilateral Committee to Monitor Incitement, established under the Wye Accords.

Synopsis — Palestinian Media Watch wishes to draw attention to the nature and content of Grade 12 Palestinian schoolbooks, introduced at the end of 2006 by the PA Ministry of Higher Education and written by the Center for Developing the Palestinian Curricula. — The new books were introduced in response to widespread international criticism of the old textbooks, which were primarily Jordanian and Egyptian in origin. The Grade 12 books are just one year of the 12 that were introduced at the end of last year. — The authors and supervisors of the new books are the same team of authors who have been writing during the years 2000 through to 2005, with slight additions. It is notable that the hateful ideology contained in these texts has been embraced and is being taught by veteran Fatah educators, not by representatives of Hamas. — PMW have found that the Palestinian textbooks make no attempt to educate for peace and co- existance, and instead repeatedly reject Israel’s right to exist. They also promote the present conflict as a religious battle for Islam, teach Israel’s founding as imperialistic and portray a picture of the Middle East, verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist. — PA educators teach that fighting Israel is not merely a territorial conflict but also a religious battle for Islam. The schoolbooks present Israel as existing on Islamic land, and as such, assert that the conflict with Israel is not part of an Arab nationalistic goal but an uncompromising battle for God. — Maps of the region also teach children to visualise a world without Israel, as Israel does not exist on any map and its area is marked as “Palestine”. It is said to have water access to the Mediterranean and Red Sea and to measure more than 10,000 sq km—meaning that it would have to incorporate present-day Israel. — PMW believes that one of the most meaningful gages of the ideology and aspiration of a people is the education of its youth. For this reason, the latest PA schoolbooks are a continuation of the tragic disappointment of earlier books. These texts glorify terror and teach youngsters to hate Israel. The most concerning element of this however is that instead of working to minimise hatred for Israel, the new PA curriculum is ingraining into the next generation‘s consciousness and packaging the war against Israel as existential, mandatory and religious.

1. Israel as a religious battle 1.1 The PA schoolbooks teach that fighting Israel is not merely a territorial, nationalistic conflict, but a religious battle for Islam. The educators define the conflict with Israel as “Ribat”—a concept from Islamic tradition signifying Muslims defending the border areas of Islam. Moreover, the youth are taught that their specific fight against Israel—Ribat for “Palestine”—is ”one of the greatest of the Ribat, and they [Palestinians] are worthy of a great reward from Allah”. 1.2 Palestinian use of violence against Israel is called “muqawama—resistance” (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Commentary, grade 12, p 105)—and is said to be legal according to international law. And after defining “Palestine” to encompass all of Israel, Israel’s eventual destruction is assured: “Palestine will be liberated by its men, its women, its young ones and its elderly” (Arabic Language and the Science of Language, grade 12, p 44). Hezbollah terror against Israel is likewise justified, as one schoolbook rejects the UN ruling 3676421017 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence 157 that Israel has withdrawn to the international border, and likewise defines Hezbollah’s terror as “resistance” against “occupation.” 1.3 Beyond teaching that Islam glorifies their continuous Ribat, the books teach that international law determines that fighting “colonial rule, foreign rule and racist regimes . . . is a legitimate struggle.” These three categories to be fought—“colonial, foreign, and racist”—are all terms used in the schoolbooks to define Israel: (History of the Arabs and the World in the 20th Century, grade 12, p 6) 1.4 Accordingly, any attempt to stop this fight—that is, to stop Palestinians from fighting Israel—is itself said to violate international law: “Any attempt to suppress the struggle against colonial and foreign rule and racist regimes is considered as contrary to the UN convention and the declaration of principles of international law.” According to this, any country fighting Palestine terror would be violating international law. 1.5 After Israel withdrew from Lebanon in May 2000 the UN recognised it as complete. The PA school books reject this, teaching that Israel has not completed its withdrawal and that the Hezbollah terror is “resistance,” fighting “occupation”. The Israeli forces withdrew from it [Lebanon] under pressure from the Lebanese national resistance in 2000, except for the area of the Shab’a Farms, which is still under Israeli occupation, and the Lebanese resistance for its liberation continues. (The History of the Arabs and the World in the 20th Century, grade 12, p 83)

2. Palestine in a world with Israel

2.1 Numerous verbal lessons in the new schoolbooks present Palestinian youth with a vision of a world without Israel. It is important to note that in this and many of the following examples, it is not a geographic area of “Palestine” that is being defined, which could conceivably include Israel, but a “state” (Arabic “Dawla” % state) called “Palestine”—in place of the state of Israel. 2.2 The “state” of “Palestine” is said to have water access to the Red Sea—a situation possible only if Israel does not exist. Coastal states diVer in terms of their access to water sources, such as . . .: States located on sea coasts with accesses to two seas, for example: Palestine and Egypt to the Mediterranean Sea and the Red Sea. (Physical Geography and Human Geography, grade 12, p 105) Note: Neither the Gaza Strip nor West Bank has access to the Red Sea. The Israeli city of Eilat has access, and on Palestinian maps Eilat appears as part of Palestine. 2.3 The size of the State of “Palestine” is said to be more than 10,000 square kilometers, which is not possible as long as Israel exists. This teaches youth to picture a world without Israel. Classification of states according to [size of] territory . . .: Small states: Range is between 10,000 to 100,000 square kilometres, for example: Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan and Holland. (Physical Geography and Human Geography, grade 12, p 107) Note: If the full West Bank (5,860 square kilometres) and Gaza Strip (360 square kilometres) were combined they total 6,220 square kilometres. All the areas of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip together equal 26,990 square kilometres. 2.4 Israel’s Jewish history and connection to the land are hidden. The following section defines the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Nazareth as “Palestinian cities”, with “holy sites to Islam and Christianity”. There is no mention of Jewish holy sites. Acknowledging Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem would draw attention to the Jewish people’s history in the Land of Israel. Religious sites: The Arab Homeland includes important religious sites, visited by Muslim and Christian pilgrims from around the world, which encourages religious tourism there, as in Palestine, where there are holy sites to Islam and Christianity in Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, Nazareth and in other Palestinian cities. (Physical Geography and Human Geography, grade 12, p 143) 3676421017 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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3. Rejection of Israel’s right to exist 3.1 While “Palestine” is described as existing in a world without Israel, Israel’s founding is taught and vilified as “a catastrophe that is unprecedented in history. The Zionist gangs stole Palestine and expelled its people from their cities, their villages, their lands and their houses, and established the State of Israel.” [Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p 104] Israel is described as foreign, colonialist, and imperialist. The youth are taught that Israel’s creation was immoral and Israel unequivocally has no right to exist. 3.2 The Palestinian educators define Jews as foreigners and colonialists in their own country of Israel. While Israel is today a vibrant democracy with 11 Arab Knesset members and one Druze, an Arab Minister and Supreme Court justice, the schoolbooks liken Israel to the white minority regimes of South Africa and Zimbabwe, calling it “racist.” (Note: The books cite South Africa and Zimbabwe as if the white rule situations still exist.)

4. Holocaust Denial 4.1 The textbook History of the Arabs and the World in the 20th Century teaches the military and the political events of World War II in significant detail, including sections on Nazi racist ideology, yet neither persecution of Jews nor the Holocaust is mentioned. It is apparent that the PA educators made an active decision to exclude the Holocaust from history. The new book writes selectively about the issues of the Holocaust, citing Nazi racist ideology and restrictions the Nazis placed on “inferior” non-Aryan nations, yet it makes no reference to the Holocaust or to Jews. The schoolbook even teaches about the post-war trials of “senior Nazi leaders as war criminals” (p 46) but make no mention of the crimes for which the “war criminals” were on trial. 4.2 Separate sections of the history book are devoted to the events leading to World War II, the battles of the war on the Baltic Front, the Western Front, the African Front, the Russian Front, the Far East Front, the El Alamein battle, the defeat of the Axis forces, and Japan’s defeat and the dropping of the atomic bomb. But in the PA educators’ version of world war history, there is no Holocaust.

5. Terminology of disdain and demonisation 5.1 The terminology the educators have chosen for the schoolbooks demonises Israel and reinforces the rejection of Israel as a neighbour with a right to exist. 5.2 The following terms are used to refer to Israel, its founders and its ideology: “The Zionist gangs stole Palestine and expelled the inhabitants . . .” (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p 104)

“The occupation of its country by the Zionist Enemy . . .” (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p 122)

“. . . attempts carried out by the enemies of this people.” (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p 17) 5.3 The following terms are used to refer to Israel’s creation: “Faced with this Zionist Imperialist plan, Palestine’s residents decided . . .” (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p 103)

“The Zionist gangs stole Palestine and expelled . . .” (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p 104) 5.4 The following terms are used to refer to the Palestinian condition: “Banished the Palestinian nation into exile” (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p 109)

“Massacred, and stole its land, its homes and its holy sites.” (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p 109) 3676421017 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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6. Jihad, and Shahada—Martyrdom for Allah

6.1 The new PA schoolbooks teach and idealise Jihad—war for Islam—and Shahada—death for Allah—as basic Islamic principles to which to aspire. Jihad and Shahada are at times taught as general Islamic ideals, and at times focused against Israel. This promotion is not limited to the formal Islamic education books, but is found in many diVerent schoolbooks. Often the original Islamic sources from the Quran or Hadith are used as the tool of promotion.

6.2 Grammar is taught by analysing a Quran verse whose message is that believers who fight are said to be superior to those believers who do not fight. Grammar Exercises: “Believers who sit at home, other than those who are disabled, are not equal with those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives.” (Note: Passage from Quran, Sura of Al-Nissa, verse 95) (Arabic Language and the Science of Language, grade 12, p 97)

6.3 The PA textbooks teach that everyone participates in Jihad, especially when it becomes necessary, as with the war to fight Israel and liberate “Palestine”. The textbooks also provide examples of disabled people, women and elderly who participated in Jihad, presenting it as their right.

6.4 People with physical and mental disabilities: The rights of people with special needs in Islam: The right of participating in society: The care of Islam for the people with special needs is not restricted to ensuring their needs, but takes interest in making them feel their importance and their role in building the society. It does not prevent them from participating in all domains, including: — Permitting them to participate in Jihad: Allah’s Messenger permitted Amr ibn Al-Jamuh to participate in the raid of Uhud, despite the fact that he was lame. Allah, may he be praised and glorified, exempted him from Jihad, but when the Messenger saw that he insisted on going and strove to participate with the Muslims in Jihad, and heard him say: “I want to march with my limp in Paradise”—he permitted him to do so. (Islamic Education, grade 12, pp 153–154)

6.5 Shahada, or death for Allah, is an Islamic concept. The PA educators present Shahada as an ideal to which all Muslims should aspire. A Shahid—often translated as “Martyr”—is someone who has achieved Shahada. The textbooks cite the Quran and the Hadith, traditions and sayings attributed to Muhammad, to glorify the aspiration to seek a violent Shahada death. The textbooks also mention that Shahids are not considered dead, but live on in Paradise, and their death is seen as a joyous wedding.

6.6 Shahids are not dead but live on with Allah Expressions of the Hardships [of Muslims] Allah said: [Quran] “Do not say that those killed in the name of God are dead. No, as they are alive, but you cannot conceive that: We will test you with dangers and hunger and losses of property and of souls and of crops.” . . . The verse clarifies that these Shahids are alive with their god, they are lively and are delighted with happiness and the benevolence that Allah gave them, even if we do not sense these lives, and we do not know their truthfulness, and therefore [the Quran] forbade us to refer to them as “dead”. (Islamic Education, grade 12, p 9)

6.7 The Shahid’s death as a wedding: The Islamic tradition that the Shahid is rewarded with 72 Dark-Eyed Maidens in Paradise leads to the Palestinian textbooks’ describing Shahada—death for Allah—as a “wedding”. Oh my Homeland, I won’t cry during this wedding, as our Arabness does not want us to cry over the Shahids; Al-Mutawakkil Tah, Palestine (Arabic Language and the Science of Language, grade 12, p 13) 3676421017 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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7. The promotion of a “clash of civilisations”

7.1 The depiction of the West as enemy is cemented as the new PA schoolbooks divide the modern world into two camps: the West and the Islamic-Arab world. The current relationship is described as a “Clash of Civilisations” (Contemporary Problems, grade 12, p 92). The West is taught to be primarily responsible for this tension, for numerous reasons, including colonialism, and the wars it has initiated which it has justified in the name of “human rights.” 7.2 The war in Iraq is taught to be an “occupation”, and terror attacks against British and US soldiers are “brave resistance.” The U.S. and Britain [forces] . . . stormed Iraqi cities with the participation of military forces from diVerent countries and Baghdad fell. The Iraqis did not surrender to this occupation but succeeded in organising themselves and a brave resistance to liberate Iraq began. (History of the Arabs and the World in the 20th Century, grade 12, p 147) 7.3 Britain is portrayed negatively as having primary responsibility for helping the creation of Israel. No mention is made that Britain was fulfilling an international decision of the League of Nations in 1922 giving Britain the Mandate of Palestine for the specific purpose of creation of a state for Jews in the Jewish homeland: “recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home”. (The Palestine Mandate: the Council of the League of Nations). In as much, as the books deny Israel’s right to exist, citing Britain as responsible places them in a negative light. 7.4 The causes of the current clash between the West and Islam are said to be: (i) European colonialism. (ii) Human rights abuses by the West. (iii) The “tensions . . . following the events of 11 September . . .;” the European prohibitions of Islamic Hijab headdresses in schools, the Danish cartoons of Mohammed. (iv) The West is “not serious about having a dialogue” with the Muslim Arab world.

8. Minimising the peace agreements between Israel and its neighbours

8.1 There seems to be an attempt to minimise education about the peace processes between Israel and its neighbors. In the book History of the Arabs and the World in the 20th Century there is great detail about the wars, the British Mandate period and Israel’s establishment—but only minor reference to a peace process, while the Oslo Accords are not even mentioned. In the book Contemporary Problems, there is nothing in the extensive sections on Israel and the Palestinians about the peace process. 8.2 Another book focuses on the Arab world’s opposition to the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt: The president of Egypt, Muhammad Anwar Al-Sadat, visited Israel. The Camp David accord was signed in 1979. According to it, Israel withdrew from Sinai. As a result, The Arab countries terminated their relations with Egypt and the centre of the Arab League was moved from Cairo to Tunis. (History of the Arabs and the world in the 20th century, grade 12, p 88) 8.3 The Israel–Palestinian Olso Accords are given very little mention. The books describe the signing of the Oslo Accords: “Due to the political circumstances in the Arab region following the Second Gulf War, a declaration of principles (the Oslo Accords) was reached in 1993 . . .” Although it is not certain what the educators are hinting at, Yasser Arafat and the PLO were at their weakest following the Gulf War, after Arafat’s support of Saddam Hussein’s attack on Kuwait, which had lost the PLO its financial base of support. Due to the political circumstances in the Arab region following the Second Gulf War, a declaration of principles (the Oslo Accords) was reached in 1993 for solving the problem of Palestine between the PLO and Israel, and it [America] plays the lead role in the attempt to end the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Its latest political suggestion is the Roadmap plan. (Contemporary Problems, grade 12, pp 22–23) 8.4 Beyond this, the Oslo Accords are not mentioned, nor is the peace process. 3676421017 Page Type [O] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

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9. Conclusions 9.1 One of the most meaningful gauges of the ideology and aspirations of a people is the education of its youth. For this reason, the new Palestinian Authority schoolbooks introduced in the end of 2006 by the Palestinian Authority (PA) Ministry of Higher Education apparatus are a continuation of the tragic disappointment of the earlier books. Instead of seizing the opportunity to educate future generations to live in peace with Israel, the new PA schoolbooks teach their children to hate Israel and vilify Israel’s existence while they glorify terror. Instead of working to minimise the current hate, the new PA curriculum is ingraining it into the next generation’s consciousness, and packaging the conflict with as existential, mandatory and religious. The hate indoctrination, combined with the definition of terror against Israel as “most glorious heroism,” could be interpreted by some youths as recruitment manuals for terrorism. 9.2 The new PA schoolbooks are guaranteeing that the next generation will grow up seeing Israel as an illegitimate state, an enemy to be hated, fought, and destroyed, rather than as a neighbor to negotiate with, and to ultimately live beside in peace. March 2007

Memorandum by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency On behalf of the Commissioner-General of UNRWA, Karen Koning AbuZayd, I am pleased to forward the Agency’s views on some of the issues raised in the Sub-Committee’s call for evidence. As UNRWA’s mandate is humanitarian in nature, our submission does not address matters that we consider to be within the political realm.

Questions 2 and 3 EU involvement has been eVective on a number of levels. 1. The work of COPPS and BAM in Rafah has facilitated movement in and out of Gaza. This is a critical contribution, as easing movement restrictions is necessary for economic and social recovery in Gaza. 2. The TIM is an important conduit for reaching some of those in need, but it has limited scope and is no substitute for removing the sanctions regime, providing fiscal and budgetary support for the Palestinian Authority (PA) and furnishing development assistance that builds capacity and improves governance. 3. The first-hand involvement of OYce of the EU High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy and its willingness to engage with humanitarian actors on the ground is a very appreciated and important aspect of the EU’s involvement in the region. 4. EU statements are highly regarded and could be usefully complemented by member states. The post- election policy of the EU (along with others) of isolating the PA and suspending all fiscal and budgetary support to it and all those who work for it, while providing military and economic support to the Palestinian Presidency has been devastating to the Palestinian polity. This policy has, contributed to an extreme humanitarian crisis, profound human suVering and intensified internal conflict.

Question 5 The EU is an important stakeholder of and a generous donor to UNRWA. It has played a vital role in furthering transparency and improved governance within the Agency through its encouragement of results- based budgeting and the refining of indicators to better measure performance. UNRWA area staV number some 27,000, and improved organizational governance may have a positive influence on attitudes to peace.

Question 9 Resumption of support to the PA is critical to easing the political, economic and social collapse in Gaza. The EU provided electoral support for parliamentary elections which it deemed had been conducted in a free and fair manner. The current embargo of the PA appears contradictory to the aims of the electoral support. In addition to support for democracy and self-government, EU policy could, as a matter of priority, strengthen Palestinian economic viability with a view to promoting stability in the region. This requires urgent eVorts to convince the Government of Israel to allow Palestinian goods to be exported freely. Palestinians in the oPt are being systematically impoverished and isolated by expropriation of land; by fragmentation of the West Bank; by the eVects of the barrier including the sealing oV of Jerusalem; and other closure policies. Violations of international law are depriving Palestinians of the protections due to them. The right to life and freedom from 3676421018 Page Type [E] 18-07-07 04:21:27 Pag Table: LOENEW PPSysB Unit: PG13

162 the european union and the middle east peace process: evidence arbitrary arrest, are frequently violated. Resumption of the peace process depends upon halting such policies. The failure of states and other actors to respect and comply with IHL and human rights law is the cause of a high number of deaths and injuries among civilians in the oPt. A consistent and strong stance against violations of IHL has been conspicuously missing. We would like to see the EU taking concrete steps to call the concerned states and actors to account under relevant provisions of international law. Michael Kingsley-Nyinah Director of the Executive OYce 5 March 2007

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