Wednesday Volume 505 3 February 2010 No. 36 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Wednesday 3 February 2010 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 283 3 FEBRUARY 2010 284 Secretary of State share the frustration and anger of the House of Commons people of Northern Ireland about the lack of real progress in these talks? Could he explain to the House Wednesday 3 February 2010 why the Government have abandoned the core agreement principle of inclusivity by excluding 44 per cent. of the electorate from meaningful inter-party dialogue at these The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock talks, and explain the abandonment of proportionality in the allocation of Ministries? PRAYERS Mr. Woodward: I certainly share the sense of frustration; after eight days and 110 or 120 hours of talks, sleep [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] deprivation might be having its effect, as well. The Prime Minister and the Taoiseach wanted to BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS ensure that it was possible for the political parties to reach a reasonable agreement. Let us remember that, LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] ultimately, because of the St. Andrews arrangements, (BY ORDER) the completion of devolution will be decided by a Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. cross-community vote. However, before that, the political parties have been engaging in the past week in talks in Hon. Members: Object. an inclusive way. I can only say that, from what I have Bill to be read a Second time on Thursday 25 February. seen so far of the product of these talks, many of the points that the political parties in Northern Ireland would have wanted to see in such a process are very Oral Answers to Questions much under consideration. Mr. Harper: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer and for clarifying the position for the NORTHERN IRELAND House. I have been a little concerned in listening to at least one of the parties talking about whether any agreement that was reached among the parties to the The Secretary of State was asked— talks would have in some way to be put out for public consultation or a vote—it is a bit unspecific. What is the Criminal Justice and Policing (Devolution) Government’s position on that? Do they think that that would be a helpful process or that it would hinder a 1. Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): What solution that would be durable and remain for the assessment he has made of the outcomes of the recent foreseeable future? talks at Hillsborough between the Northern Ireland political parties; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Woodward: Clearly, whatever agreement is reached [314136] by the parties must be durable. It is very important for us all to understand that what is at stake are not simply 3. Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): What arrangements for a date for the transfer of policing and recent progress has been made on the devolution of justice powers, for which the Government strongly believe criminal justice and policing; and if he will make a that the time is now right: this is the end of a political statement. [314138] process that began with the peace process itself. If we succeed with this, we will secure all the achievements of 7. Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): the peace process; if we fail, we will put many of them What recent progress has been made on the devolution at risk. of policing to the Northern Ireland Assembly. [314143] The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun Jeff Ennis: I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend, Woodward): The Hillsborough talks established by my the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach, and all the other right. hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach local and national politicians, on all the efforts that they last week have now continued for eight days. The British have made in trying to progress this very important and Irish Governments helped to establish a basis and a matter. I also congratulate my right hon. Friend on the pathway on which we believed it would be possible for new unit that he opened this week in Maghaberry the parties to reach a reasonable agreement. Considerable prison. On that particular aspect, if the devolution of progress has been made. With good political will, we policing does not go ahead, what might be the implications believe that the parties should soon be able to reach a for the future of the prison-building programme in reasonable agreement. Northern Ireland? Mr. McGrady: I thank the Secretary of State for his Mr. Woodward: I thank my hon. Friend for that response. May I place on record the thanks of the question. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Minister, people of Northern Ireland to the Prime Minister, the who is responsible for security and policing, had the Secretary of State, the Taoiseach and the Minister for pleasure of opening that unit. He was allowed out of Foreign Affairs for the extraordinary patience and diligence our open prison to go to another one, but I am pleased that they have applied throughout these talks? Does the to report that we brought him back pretty promptly. 285 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 286 We are committed to the provision of new places in Mr. Woodward: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those prison. In the past two years, we have provided some remarks, and indeed for his help during those two days 300 new prison places, with 120 more to come. The when his being in Northern Ireland with the Select House may wish to note, however, that if no agreement Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs coincided with is reached in the next few days, and if therefore we the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach being there. He is cannot complete devolution, the loss of the £800 million absolutely right that patience is required, but equally we that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would must be careful not to try people’s patience to distraction. make available would almost certainly mean that extra Unfair failure to make progress would not be rewarded— prison places would not happen, that the new women’s not by any particular process now, but by the people of prison would not happen, and that, indeed, the new Northern Ireland. We have changed their lives through Magilligan prison would be unlikely to proceed. the peace process and secured peace in the political process. It is right to make progress, but we now sit on Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does the edge. not the Secretary of State think that an essential ingredient of the current discussions must be a consensus that can command community confidence? Without that community Lady Hermon (North Down) (UUP): For those of us confidence, no matter what pressure is placed upon me who definitely do not want to go back to direct rule and or my colleagues, the Democratic Unionist party will who want devolution and the talks at Hillsborough to not be buying into any deal. Progress has been made, succeed, with the principles of tolerance and respect at but more remains to be done, and we certainly agree their core, what more can we in this House do to with including all the other parties in these discussions. encourage those in the negotiations to take them forward and make them successful, in the interests of everyone Mr. Woodward: Of course everyone must have confidence, in Northern Ireland? but confidence does not belong to any one community. One of the principles is that an agreement must indeed command support from everyone in Northern Ireland, Mr. Woodward: I thank the hon. Lady for her but we are speaking about something that was understood contribution. She always speaks well on these issues, in the St. Andrews agreement and that people expected and indeed she always speaks well on behalf of her would be completed. All the political parties in the constituents. She is absolutely right to talk about the Assembly elections understood the importance importance of tolerance and respect. It is essential that of completing devolution. The Assembly has been up we also learn to put trust into the process. Every step of and running for nearly three years, and that business the way in the peace process has at times required us to remains to be done. We believe that the confidence is make acts of faith. We need acts of faith and trust now, there, and it is now time to summon leadership and and whether one is a negotiator or standing outside the courage and act. process, we all have a responsibility for its success. We would all have a responsibility were it not to succeed, Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Does the Secretary of although I hope that that will not happen. State agree that it is very important that no party in Northern Ireland is seen to be blackmailing Her Majesty’s Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): Government? The actions of Sinn Fein, in threatening May I, too, endorse the efforts of the Secretary of State to pull down the Assembly if the Prime Minister and and the Minister of State in recent days in relation to the Taoiseach did not go almost straight over to Northern the talks? I endorse also what the Secretary of State Ireland and spend hours without sleep, would not seem says about the importance of trust and faith.