Wednesday Volume 505 3 February 2010 No. 36

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 3 February 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 283 3 FEBRUARY 2010 284

Secretary of State share the frustration and anger of the House of Commons people of Northern Ireland about the lack of real progress in these talks? Could he explain to the House Wednesday 3 February 2010 why the Government have abandoned the core agreement principle of inclusivity by excluding 44 per cent. of the electorate from meaningful inter-party dialogue at these The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock talks, and explain the abandonment of proportionality in the allocation of Ministries? PRAYERS Mr. Woodward: I certainly share the sense of frustration; after eight days and 110 or 120 hours of talks, sleep [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] deprivation might be having its effect, as well. The Prime Minister and the Taoiseach wanted to BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS ensure that it was possible for the political parties to reach a reasonable agreement. Let us remember that, LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] ultimately, because of the St. Andrews arrangements, (BY ORDER) the completion of devolution will be decided by a Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. cross-community vote. However, before that, the political parties have been engaging in the past week in talks in Hon. Members: Object. an inclusive way. I can only say that, from what I have Bill to be read a Second time on Thursday 25 February. seen so far of the product of these talks, many of the points that the political parties in Northern Ireland would have wanted to see in such a process are very Oral Answers to Questions much under consideration. Mr. Harper: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer and for clarifying the position for the NORTHERN IRELAND House. I have been a little concerned in listening to at least one of the parties talking about whether any agreement that was reached among the parties to the The Secretary of State was asked— talks would have in some way to be put out for public consultation or a vote—it is a bit unspecific. What is the Criminal Justice and Policing (Devolution) Government’s position on that? Do they think that that would be a helpful process or that it would hinder a 1. Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): What solution that would be durable and remain for the assessment he has made of the outcomes of the recent foreseeable future? talks at Hillsborough between the Northern Ireland political parties; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Woodward: Clearly, whatever agreement is reached [314136] by the parties must be durable. It is very important for us all to understand that what is at stake are not simply 3. Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): What arrangements for a date for the transfer of policing and recent progress has been made on the devolution of justice powers, for which the Government strongly believe criminal justice and policing; and if he will make a that the time is now right: this is the end of a political statement. [314138] process that began with the peace process itself. If we succeed with this, we will secure all the achievements of 7. Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): the peace process; if we fail, we will put many of them What recent progress has been made on the devolution at risk. of policing to the Northern Ireland Assembly. [314143]

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun Jeff Ennis: I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend, Woodward): The Hillsborough talks established by my the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach, and all the other right. hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach local and national politicians, on all the efforts that they last week have now continued for eight days. The British have made in trying to progress this very important and Irish Governments helped to establish a basis and a matter. I also congratulate my right hon. Friend on the pathway on which we believed it would be possible for new unit that he opened this week in Maghaberry the parties to reach a reasonable agreement. Considerable prison. On that particular aspect, if the devolution of progress has been made. With good political will, we policing does not go ahead, what might be the implications believe that the parties should soon be able to reach a for the future of the prison-building programme in reasonable agreement. Northern Ireland?

Mr. McGrady: I thank the Secretary of State for his Mr. Woodward: I thank my hon. Friend for that response. May I place on record the thanks of the question. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Minister, people of Northern Ireland to the Prime Minister, the who is responsible for security and policing, had the Secretary of State, the Taoiseach and the Minister for pleasure of opening that unit. He was allowed out of Foreign Affairs for the extraordinary patience and diligence our open prison to go to another one, but I am pleased that they have applied throughout these talks? Does the to report that we brought him back pretty promptly. 285 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 286

We are committed to the provision of new places in Mr. Woodward: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those prison. In the past two years, we have provided some remarks, and indeed for his help during those two days 300 new prison places, with 120 more to come. The when his being in Northern Ireland with the Select House may wish to note, however, that if no agreement Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs coincided with is reached in the next few days, and if therefore we the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach being there. He is cannot complete devolution, the loss of the £800 million absolutely right that patience is required, but equally we that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would must be careful not to try people’s patience to distraction. make available would almost certainly mean that extra Unfair failure to make progress would not be rewarded— prison places would not happen, that the new women’s not by any particular process now, but by the people of prison would not happen, and that, indeed, the new Northern Ireland. We have changed their lives through Magilligan prison would be unlikely to proceed. the peace process and secured peace in the political process. It is right to make progress, but we now sit on Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does the edge. not the Secretary of State think that an essential ingredient of the current discussions must be a consensus that can command community confidence? Without that community Lady Hermon (North Down) (UUP): For those of us confidence, no matter what pressure is placed upon me who definitely do not want to go back to direct rule and or my colleagues, the Democratic Unionist party will who want devolution and the talks at Hillsborough to not be buying into any deal. Progress has been made, succeed, with the principles of tolerance and respect at but more remains to be done, and we certainly agree their core, what more can we in this House do to with including all the other parties in these discussions. encourage those in the negotiations to take them forward and make them successful, in the interests of everyone Mr. Woodward: Of course everyone must have confidence, in Northern Ireland? but confidence does not belong to any one community. One of the principles is that an agreement must indeed command support from everyone in Northern Ireland, Mr. Woodward: I thank the hon. Lady for her but we are speaking about something that was understood contribution. She always speaks well on these issues, in the St. Andrews agreement and that people expected and indeed she always speaks well on behalf of her would be completed. All the political parties in the constituents. She is absolutely right to talk about the Assembly elections understood the importance importance of tolerance and respect. It is essential that of completing devolution. The Assembly has been up we also learn to put trust into the process. Every step of and running for nearly three years, and that business the way in the peace process has at times required us to remains to be done. We believe that the confidence is make acts of faith. We need acts of faith and trust now, there, and it is now time to summon leadership and and whether one is a negotiator or standing outside the courage and act. process, we all have a responsibility for its success. We would all have a responsibility were it not to succeed, Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Does the Secretary of although I hope that that will not happen. State agree that it is very important that no party in Northern Ireland is seen to be blackmailing Her Majesty’s Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): Government? The actions of Sinn Fein, in threatening May I, too, endorse the efforts of the Secretary of State to pull down the Assembly if the Prime Minister and and the Minister of State in recent days in relation to the Taoiseach did not go almost straight over to Northern the talks? I endorse also what the Secretary of State Ireland and spend hours without sleep, would not seem says about the importance of trust and faith. Does he to any reasonable person a sensible way forward. Of believe that he would have been able to engender that course we want the agreement to happen, but that is not trust and faith and perform the role that he has if he necessarily the best way to move forward. had been caught out trying to construct a pan-Unionist Mr. Woodward: I thank my hon. Friend for those alliance? remarks. Let us be clear that the Prime Minister works extremely hard whether he is here in Downing street or Mr. Woodward: The hon. Gentleman tempts me with in Northern Ireland, which is why I am sure we are all the last part of his question. I will not make any very grateful to him for what he has done. He went to attempt to secure any party advantage, because the Northern Ireland with the Taoiseach because he has politics of Northern Ireland are such that we must put been following the matter very closely over the past few the interests of the people above any party interest. months and judged that the time was right last Monday However, I say this to the hon. Gentleman: we all have a to go and help facilitate the talks and to build a pathway responsibility.It is possible to grandstand what is happening on which it would be possible to construct a reasonable in Northern Ireland, and in doing so, to say “It wasn’t agreement. That was the critical role that he played in my fault” if it fails As I have said before, we are all those two days. If we reach agreement, the people of responsible. Northern Ireland from every community should be grateful to him and to the Taoiseach. Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): Everyone Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): In acknowledges the determination of the Secretary of thanking the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister State and his colleagues to see devolution completed, for the time and effort that they have spent over the past and we fully support his efforts and objectives. For few days, may I urge the Secretary of State to use devolution to be durable, it must command community whatever extra patience is necessary to ensure that when confidence. Will he therefore ensure that both the Ulster an agreement is reached, as I hope and trust it will be, Unionists and the Social Democratic and Labour party it will hold and be supported throughout all the are fully involved in the negotiations as equal members communities in Northern Ireland? of the four-party coalition? 287 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 288

Mr. Woodward: I wish to put on record that I believe Paul Goggins: There was an attack last night on the that that can be done only if there is an unequivocal Old Park barracks, which indeed followed an attack a commitment to succeed by all parties in the House. I am few days ago at Bessbrook police station. Of course, all grateful for what I believe is the hon. Gentleman’s full such incidents are to be condemned. The IMC noted support for what we are trying to negotiate, but let us be that there was some tactical co-operation between certain clear that the process at Hillsborough has been open to groupings, which of course the PSNI and the Security all parties. None the less, the agreement must be forged Service are aware of and are dealing with, but the key initially between the DUP and Sinn Fein. Let me pay thing is that the completion of devolution of policing tribute to the leadership offered by both parties. The and justice provides a real opportunity to snuff out process has been undertaken in a good spirit and in those who would oppose the political and peace processes good faith, but it requires the support of those who may and try to bring disruption. We have a real opportunity not be able to be involved in the intimate parts of every to move such people right away from the mainstream of negotiation. I urge the hon. Gentleman to do all he can society, who support law and order and want visible with his alliance partner in Northern Ireland to help policing on their streets to deal with everyday kinds of that party understand that the talks must succeed. crime, including antisocial behaviour.

Mr. Paterson: The negotiations have been much more Mr. Bellingham: Does the Minister share my concern protracted than anyone anticipated. Like the Secretary about the sheer brutality and nerve of the recent drive-by of State, we want them to succeed, and I again assure shootings? Is he satisfied that the human intelligence- him of our continued support. Can he confirm, however, gathering capability of the PSNI is as good as it was in that issues other than criminal justice, policing and the RUC? parades that have been raised by the parties are being carefully considered as part of the final deal? Paul Goggins: I have absolute confidence in the capacity of the PSNI and the Security Service to deal with the Mr. Woodward: These talks are to facilitate an threat that is posed. It is a severe threat, and we recognise agreement—the agreement must be reached by the political that, but the police and the Security Service have the parties. I can confirm that in plenary sessions those capability to deal with it. I join the hon. Gentleman in issues have been raised and that a reasonable agreement condemning the people who carried out those attacks, would include a process to address them. However, it is and those who carried out the despicable attack on sometimes difficult to address such issues if some Northern Constable Peadar Heffron a short time ago. I am pleased Ireland parties are not available for meetings or if they that because of Constable Heffron’s great strength and are not as prepared as other parties to meet me or my the support of his family, he has now regained consciousness right hon. Friend the Minister. and is in a stable condition. Their approach to life stands in stark contrast to the despicable behaviour of Security Situation those who tried to take his life.

2. Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I join What his latest assessment is of the level of threat in the Minister in condemning the attack on Constable Northern Ireland from dissident republican groups. Heffron and wish him a rapid and full recovery from his [314137] very serious injuries. His is one of a series of attacks, as we have heard this morning, mainly—although not 4. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): exclusively—on police officers. On behalf of the Opposition, What his latest assessment is of the security situation in I condemn those attacks without reservation and I ask Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement. the Minister again whether he can do anything to help [314140] the police to protect their officers from these murderous and cowardly attacks. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul Goggins): The most recent Independent Monitoring Paul Goggins: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that Commission report confirmed that the threat from dissident all police officers in Northern Ireland have received an republicans is at its highest for six years. I pay tribute to appropriate briefing on their own security. This year the the work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and Government have made available an extra £28 million the Security Service in combating and disrupting terrorism to deal with the terrorist threat, and more money will in all its forms. follow next year. It is a great tribute to the PSNI, when one looks back at some of the serious attacks in the past Mr. Donaldson: The Minister will be aware of the year, that two people have been remanded in custody latest attempt by dissidents to carry out an attack on and charged with murder in relation to the attacks at the security forces, which happened last night. Thankfully, the Massereene barracks, two have been charged with it was thwarted through co-operation between the PSNI the murder of Constable Stephen Carroll, and two have and the police in the Irish Republic. It is that kind of been charged with attempted murder in relation to an co-operation that will help to defeat those terrorists. attack planned recently in Garrison against a young police officer. The police service is absolutely up for this Is the Minister aware of a realignment that is taking and is determined to deal with the threat. place within those dissident republican groups, as a result of which we have seen an increase in the number Decommissioning of attacks and the risks that they pose to the security forces? Will he reassure us that the Chief Constable will 5. Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): What be given the resources he needs to combat that serious recent assessment he has made of progress on loyalist threat? decommissioning. [314141] 289 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 290

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun of 30 per cent. Catholic composition by March 2011, Woodward): At the beginning of January, the Independent and today I am laying before Parliament an order that International Commission on Decommissioning confirmed will renew the temporary provisions for a further final a major act of decommissioning by the UDA. We year. applaud the leadership and courage behind that decision and those responsible. Mr. Turner: What further measures will the Minister take to ensure that the required level of membership Miss Kirkbride: The Secretary of State—[Interruption.] will be met from both denominations?

Mr. Speaker: Order. These are important and serious Paul Goggins: It was necessary to introduce the temporary matters we are discussing, but on both sides of the provisions to deal with the historical imbalance in the Chamber there are far too many private conversations representation in the PSNI. As I said, in 2001, 8 per taking place. If people want to have private chats, the cent. were Catholic, but now that figure is 27.68 per answer is simple: leave the Chamber. cent. As we move forward, however, it is important to ensure that, with confidence in policing shared across Miss Kirkbride: The Secretary of State rightly says all communities, we can expect applications and people that there has been welcome decommissioning by the of high calibre from all communities and that they will UDA, but he will also be aware of the worrying number be recruited. Of course we also need strategies to ensure of loyalist dissident assaults, which are up by almost that women apply to join the PSNI, and people from 250 per cent. on the same time last year. What is his ethnic minorities too. Department doing to ensure that the people who orchestrate and authorise such assaults face justice? David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): The Minister will be aware that over the past 12 months a number of Mr. Woodward: First, this is a matter for the Chief PSNI and prison officers and former security force Constable. That being said, we are ensuring that the members have had to leave their homes following dissident resources are available for him to deal with all those republican threats. Does he agree that, if that continues, who are engaged in crime. If the agreement that we are it will be a hindrance to encouraging young people to trying to work through at Hillsborough succeeds, an join the PSNI? additional £800 million will be available to policing and justice in Northern Ireland to help with these things. If Paul Goggins: It is important, of course, that the the agreement is not reached, that money will not be Northern Ireland Office stands alongside the PSNI and available and the police will have to suffer the consequences provides support and protection where appropriate to of a failure to reach agreement. police officers who may be under a serious and individual threat. However, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Along with others, of State said earlier, we all bear a responsibility to my right hon. Friend has played a major part in the ensure that we create an environment in Northern Ireland decommissioning talks. They have certainly brought in which those who seek to carry out the kinds of attack safety to Northern Ireland, but does he believe that that we have seen are isolated from the mainstream there is more to come from decommissioning, and has community and stand unsupported and alone, so that he any news that he can share with the House today? they can have no further impact. All of us, including the hon. Gentleman and me, bear a responsibility. Mr. Woodward: Let us reflect on the success of the decommissioning policy.We have seen full decommissioning Paramilitary Groups from the Provisional IRA, the Ulster Volunteer Force and the Ulster Defence Association, and limited 8. Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): decommissioning is reported from the Loyalist Volunteer What recent assessment he has made of the level of Force. It has been an extremely successful programme, activity by loyalist paramilitary groups in Northern but I should share with my hon. Friend the fact that Ireland; and if he will make a statement. [314144] next week, on 9 February, it comes to an end—the process will be over—and that will be that on The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun decommissioning. Woodward): Although I welcome the positive leadership that has delivered decommissioning in Northern Ireland, PSNI (Recruitment) some individual members of loyalist paramilitary organisations remain involved in criminality, as reflected 6. Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): What his in the latest IMC report. most recent estimate is of the level of recruitment to the Police Service of Northern Ireland of (a) Catholics Mr. Binley: In January, youth workers warned that and (b) Protestants; and if he will make a statement. social networking sites were being used by both Catholic [314142] and Protestant groups to foment violence. May I ask what steps the Government are taking to ensure that The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul such sites are not so used? Goggins): Since the introduction of the temporary recruitment provisions in 2001, there have been 3,751 Mr. Woodward: That is primarily a matter for the appointments to the PSNI—1,888 Catholic, 1,831 PSNI, which is looking at how such websites are used. Protestant and 32 not determined. Catholic composition Where there is illegal use of such sites or material, it will within the PSNI has increased from 8.3 per cent. to pursue the matter. However, I would simply say to the 27.68 per cent. We remain on track to reach the target hon. Gentleman that the talks taking place right now in 291 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 292

Northern Ireland will do more than anything to ensure The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): I am sure that in the future young people find no interest in such that the whole House will wish to join me in paying activity. I ask him to urge his hon. Friends to do all they tribute to the service and sacrifice in Afghanistan of can to help the talks succeed. Lance Corporal Graham Shaw and Corporal Liam Riley, both from 3rd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment, Fuel Smuggling attached to 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards. We think of their families and their loved ones, and we will never 9. Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): What recent forget the sacrifice that they have made and the service assessment he has made of the level of fuel smuggling that they have given. in Northern Ireland. [314145] This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I Goggins): The latest assessment by Her Majesty’s Revenue shall be in contact with the Northern Ireland parties and Customs confirms that the amount of revenue lost later today. through the non-payment of UK duty is reducing. We are not complacent, however, and in the past year Mr. Evennett: I add my sympathy and condolences to HMRC has seized 1.09 million litres of illegal fuel. the families of those brave servicemen who have lost their lives in the service of our country. Bill Wiggin: In 2002, the Chancellor’s Budget targeted All our constituents are rightly concerned about fuel smuggling, yet in a written answer on 14 November transparency, expenses and cleaning up politics. With 2008, column WA150, the noble Lord Myners pointed that in mind, now that it is clear that there was a out that £210 million in diesel revenue had not been £50,000 fund solely for the Prime Minister’s use at his collected, and that in 2005-06 it was also £210 million. headquarters, will he explain why he did not declare this Given the importance of fuel smuggling to terrorist in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests? organisations, why has there patently been no progress whatever since 2002? The Prime Minister: I know nothing about what the hon. Gentleman is talking about. Paul Goggins: The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that we find those who smuggle and deal Q12. [314808] Jacqui Smith (Redditch) (Lab): Across in illegal fuel in Northern Ireland, seize their assets and the country, police officers and their community bring them to justice. Under the remit of the Organised partners are working immensely hard to tackle violent Crime Task Force, the PSNI and other law enforcement crime. Who does my right hon. Friend think they agencies are deeply involved with that. Operations now should turn to, to monitor their success: to the take place week after week to seize equipment and bring Opposition, who have been caught bang to rights people to justice. issuing dodgy crime statistics, or to the authoritative and independent British crime survey, which suggests Stephen Pound (Ealing, North) (Lab): Further to that that violent crime has fallen by 41 per cent. in the past question—and indeed, to all the questions that have 10 years? been asked today—does my right hon. Friend believe that conducting clandestine negotiations exclusively with The Prime Minister: I think that we all have a duty in Unionist politicians in a stately home in England helps the debate about law and order to give out all the facts or hinders the process? that are relevant. To misrepresent facts that have come from the police and the British crime survey is not to Mr. Speaker: Order. I was listening intently to the allow us to have a fair debate in this country. The police hon. Gentleman. I was hoping that he would refer to have said that the use of the figure of 71 per cent. by the fuel smuggling, and he did not. Opposition is “extremely misleading”, while the BBC home affairs editor has said: Paul Goggins: Tempted, as I often am by my hon. “The story is of falling and then stable violence for over a Friend, to respond to the question that he asked, there decade.” is a serious point, and it is the one that my right hon. I think that there is a duty on everybody to report the Friend the Secretary of State made previously. This is facts accurately. not a moment for party political advantage in this place; it is a moment for the parties of Northern Ireland, Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): I join the Prime with our support, to strive for and find the agreement Minister in paying tribute to Corporal Liam Riley and that can pave the way to permanent peace in Northern Lance Corporal Graham Shaw, who were killed in Ireland. Helmand on Monday. They were both very brave men. Everyone should be proud of their service and we should all honour their memory. PRIME MINISTER Is it not becoming clear from the Chilcot inquiry that the Government in general, and the Prime Minister in The Prime Minister was asked— particular, made a series of bad decisions that meant that our armed forces were not equipped properly when Engagements they were sent into harm’s way?

Q1. [314797] Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and The Prime Minister: I will welcome the opportunity Crayford) (Con): If he will list his official engagements to speak to the Chilcot inquiry, but the right hon. for Wednesday 3 February. Gentleman must know that defence spending rose every 293 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 294 year, with the fastest rises for 20 years, and that our Expenditure on Afghanistan was £600 million a few forces in Iraq and Afghanistan received £14 billion from years ago. It will be £3.5 billion this year. Defence the contingency reserve to enable the fighting there to expenditure is rising this year, as it is rising in the next take place. Not only did we prepare the Army, Navy financial year. The right hon. Gentleman cannot portray and Air Force with proper funding; we also funded a picture of defence cuts when defence expenditure has every urgent operational requirement that was made. I been rising. The only Government who cut defence do not believe that it is in the interests of this House to expenditure recently were the last Conservative Government, tell people that they were not properly equipped when who cut it by nearly 30 per cent. funding was provided. Mr. Speaker: I call Jamie Reed. [Interruption.] Order. Mr. Cameron: What the Prime Minister has just said I am sure Government Back Benchers want to hear is completely at odds with what witness after witness Mr. Reed. has said to the Chilcot inquiry. Let us listen to what they have said. The former Defence Secretary said that Q14. [314810] Mr. Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): It is we now have fewer helicopters because of the decisions true. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. that the Prime Minister took as Chancellor. The former My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be Chief of the Defence Staff, General Walker, said that aware that he is the only leader of any political party to “money …was taken out of the helicopter budget”. support nuclear new build in this country. What certainty Soldier after soldier has complained about the lack of can he give my constituents, businesses and the supply body armour, vehicles and equipment, and we now chain in my constituency that we will make the necessary know that the service chiefs threatened to resign en changes to the planning system to enable them to invest masse. Is it not time that the Prime Minister admitted to with confidence and certainty? the mistakes that he made when he was Chancellor? The Prime Minister: I hope that there is all-party The Prime Minister: First, the Conservatives do not support for the nuclear expenditure that is necessary to even know what their policy is for 2010 on spending on give us security in our power. It is 8 minutes past 12 and anything. Secondly, I have always taken seriously the I understand that the current Conservative party policy need properly to fund our defence forces. In the 2002 is that nuclear power is a last resort. That is not the spending review, which is the subject of discussion here, basis on which one can plan for the future. The the defence estimate was the best for 20 years. The Conservatives can change their policies every day. We Defence Secretary at the time said it was an excellent will remain consistent in support for the energy needs of settlement that allowed us to modernise the forces. In our country. 2004, the defence management board made its own decisions. Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman that Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): I would he stood on a platform at the last election to cut defence like to add my own expressions of sympathy and condolence spending by £1.5 billion. to the families and friends of Corporal Liam Riley and Lance Corporal Graham Shaw from 3rd Battalion the Mr. Cameron: As ever, this Prime Minister is in Yorkshire Regiment, who tragically lost their lives serving complete denial of the facts. He just said that he always so bravely in Afghanistan this week. took defence seriously. Another former Chief of the Defence Staff, General Guthrie, said that this Prime I would like to return to the issue of defence spending. Minister The Government are about to make a statement on the future defence needs of this country, yet the Prime “was the most unsympathetic Chancellor of the Exchequer, as far as defence was concerned”. — Minister has already excluded the Trident nuclear missile system from the strategic defence review. How can that —[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 November 2007; review be taken seriously if the most expensive weapons Vol. 696, c. 961.] system that we have is to be excluded from it? Just today, in front of the Chilcot inquiry, the former permanent secretary at the Ministry of Defence, Kevin The Prime Minister: One can either take a unilateralist Tebbit, said that while troops were in Iraq, and while or a multilateralist attitude to defence. We take a that man was Chancellor of the Exchequer, his budget multilateralist attitude that we are prepared to work was subject to “arbitrary” cuts and a “guillotine.” He with other countries for nuclear disarmament. We do so said that he on the basis of being prepared to discuss the future of “was running…a crisis budget rather than one with sufficient Trident as part of multilateral talks. We are prepared to resources”. look at and discuss the scientific evidence for reducing Is not the evidence mounting that the Prime Minister the number of submarines from four to three. The ignored the welfare of our armed forces right up until defence review paper will state all these things. I hope the moment it became politically convenient to do that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that in a very otherwise? unsafe and insecure world where countries are acquiring nuclear weapons, breaching the non-proliferation treaty, The Prime Minister: I repeat: the Conservative party it is better for us to be part of multilateral discussions to went into the last election wanting to cut defence reduce nuclear weapons around the world. expenditure by £1.5 billion. We continued to increase the defence budget every year and we made every urgent Mr. Clegg: Look at what we have: we have troops in operational requirement that was necessary for Her battle without proper equipment and guillotined defence Majesty’s forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. That has budgets in a world that has changed out of all recognition included £14 billion of extra expenditure from the reserve. since the cold war, yet the Prime Minister and the 295 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 296

Leader of the Opposition want to spend billions of in the House of Lords, if they want to postpone reform pounds of taxpayers’ money replacing and renewing a of the House of Lords for more than 10 years and if nuclear missile system designed to flatten Moscow at they want to refuse the people a referendum on the the touch of a button. How are we to face the threats alternative vote, they are making a mistake about the country faces if Government thinking is so stuck in what the British people are thinking. My message today is the past? to the British people: we are prepared to change our constitution—and to change it for the better. We are for The Prime Minister: I give the right hon. Gentleman the alternative vote; the Opposition are for the hereditary credit for being consistent in his policies—something vote. that I cannot say about the Opposition. It is important for us to maintain the resources we are spending in Mr. Cameron: It is back to the bunker time with that Afghanistan and it is important to understand in our line. I do not know whether the Prime Minister pulled strategic defence review that we are dealing with the the secretary out of the chair before he typed that one, problem of global terrorism, which is quite different but it was a lot of old rubbish. The Prime Minister talks from what we have experienced before. I assure the right about the hereditary principle, but there is only one hon. Gentleman that we will look carefully at all the leader in this House who inherited his title. What a lot uses of equipment for the future. It is important to of rubbish! [Interruption.] It is good of the Chancellor recognise that we want to be part of multilateral discussions to have a laugh. for the future. The reason why the Prime Minister is in favour of the I add that it is not fair to our troops in Afghanistan alternative vote is that it is election time. This is the man to give the impression that they are not properly equipped who ducked the leadership election and bottled the for the job they are doing. We have spent £3.5 billion general election, and now he is trying to fiddle with the from the reserve this year and it will be even more next electoral system. He must think that the whole country year. The average expenditure per member of our forces is stupid. Have another go! Why are you doing it? is nearly £0.5 million to ensure that they are properly equipped. More helicopters have gone into Afghanistan The Prime Minister: This is the man who, at Christmas, over the last few months, as have more vehicles. Special promised us a policy-a-day blitz to show us the substance attention is being given to counter-terrorism and dealing of the Conservative party if it were in government. We with the threat of improvised explosive devices. It is have had confusion over the married couples allowance, completely wrong to say that our troops are not properly we have had chaos over public spending, we have had equipped. We are proud of them; they are professional; exaggerations about crime, and we have had the and they are properly equipped for the job they are Conservatives retreating on the hereditary principle and doing. now supporting it for the House of Lords. This is a Conservative party that is in a complete muddle and has Q2. [314798] Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and no manifesto. The Conservatives do not have the substance Leith) (Lab/Co-op): Before Christmas, the Government to be able to govern the country. They are a shambles. confirmed in the pre-Budget review that funding for front-line schools, hospitals and police would be Mr. Cameron: Why do we not go over some of the protected and increased in real terms. Neither the Tory history? The last Liberal leader who got suckered into Opposition here nor the SNP Government in Scotland this was, of course, Paddy Ashdown. He wrote this in have given a similar pledge. Meanwhile, in my his diary about Tony Blair: constituency, schools are facing savage budget cuts at “Time after time after time, he’d say ‘Yeah Paddy, I agree, but I the hands of a Lib-Dem-led council. Does this not can’t get it past Gordon.’” show that only Labour can be trusted to protect He went on to say: front-line services? “Gordon was the “primary block.” The Prime Minister: The Scottish Administration Does not real improvement mean cutting the size of the have had a record increase in public expenditure as a House of Commons, cutting Ministers’ pay, and complete result of the previous public expenditure review. It is transparency on expenses, but is not the one thing that sad that they have not made a priority of education for we should not change the ability, at a general election in the young people of Scotland. They will pay a price for Britain, to get rid of a tired, incompetent, useless and that failure at the ballot box. Some of the cuts having to divided Government? be announced by the Scottish Administration are the result of the wrong and misleading decisions that they The Prime Minister: There would be no change under have made. the Conservatives; no change at all. The right hon. Gentleman is supporting the hereditary principle in the Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): Thirteen years House of Lords. He is supporting the—[Interruption.] into government and 90 days before a general election, can the Prime Minister tell us what first attracted him to Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the changing the voting system? Prime Minister, but we must have some quiet. I want to hear the answer, and I hope that others want to hear the The Prime Minister: No one on the Opposition Benches answer as well. seems to understand that the politics of the last year has changed for ever the way the public view the House of The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman’s answer Commons and our parliamentary institutions or that is about no change. It is the politics of no change at all. the status quo cannot last and has to be changed. If the He supports the hereditary principle in the House of Conservatives want to defend the hereditary principle Lords. He supports no reform of the House of Lords 297 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 298 for a decade. He supports no referendum to allow the Q4. [314800] John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) electorate to have a chance. This is a party that has (LD): At the weekend, National Express Group fundamentally not changed at all. The Conservatives cancelled without consultation the No. 41 bus in are the same as they always were. We will vote for the Birmingham, causing major problems to people in the alternative vote; they are still voting for the hereditary city. This is symptomatic of a national problem. When vote. will the rest of the country be allowed to use the same system for bus management as is used in London? Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): In the context of the Prime Minister’s response to the parliamentary The Prime Minister: I am sure I should call an emergency institution, is he aware that tomorrow Sir Thomas Legg Cabinet meeting to look into the situation involving the will publish his full review of MPs’ allowances? Building No. 41 bus. I shall look into what the hon. Gentleman on the creation of the Independent Parliamentary Standards has said, and write to him. Authority and the Kelly recommendations—all of them the initiatives of the Prime Minister—can we put the Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): sad and sorry saga of MPs’ expenses behind us, and Does the Prime Minister agree that anyone who wishes rebuild this institution called the House of Commons? to be taken seriously on defence has got to be prepared to commit, unequivocally and without reservations, to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely the aircraft carriers? Does he also agree that there is a right. We must reform the system of expenses, and we party difference here, in that the aircraft carriers and must follow through with the Kelly and, now, the Kennedy the Royal Navy are safe with Labour, but they would be reforms under IPSA. But I have to tell the House that sunk with the Conservatives? we must do more than that. If I have a message for the whole country it is that it is not enough simply to The Prime Minister: There is no stronger defender of change the expenses system; we must change the way in the case for the aircraft carriers than the Member for which we govern ourselves in this House of Commons the constituency in which some of them are to be built. and in the House of Lords. We are committed to the aircraft carriers. The future I come back to the essential questions. If the policy of the Navy is being organised around them, and Conservatives are not prepared to face up to major I hope all parties will support the aircraft carriers. change in the constitution, the public will see that the Conservative party has not changed one bit. Q5. [314801] Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con): All Governments make mistakes, and all Prime Ministers have regrets. Which of the Q3. [314799] Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): following does the Prime Minister regret most: (a) the If what the Prime Minister told us a moment ago about collapse in adult learning, with 1.4 million places lost; defence spending was correct, why on earth did defence (b) the fact that the latest figures show that fewer young chiefs threaten to resign because of his proposed people are starting apprenticeships; or (c) the growing defence cuts, as General Walker told Chilcot this week? gulf between the number of university applications and the number of places? For the brevity you seek, The Prime Minister: I have to report to the House Mr. Speaker, as well as for clarity for the House and the that defence spending was rising every year during that convenience of the Prime Minister, perhaps he can period. It was rising in real terms, and no one has restrict his answer to saying just (a), (b) or (c). doubted that every aspect of Iraq and Afghanistan was funded. I repeat that it was the Conservative party that The Prime Minister: What I regret most is the went into the last election wanting to cut defence Conservatives’ failure to support us as we were trying to expenditure. take this country through recession with more apprenticeships, more people going to university and Mr. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent, South) (Lab): I college, and every school leaver guaranteed the chance am sure that Members throughout the House will applaud of a job or training. All these things were resisted by the the care and support given by the Royal British Legion Conservative party. to those who are serving and have served in our armed forces. The Royal British Legion is asking Members of Mr. David S. Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab): Does my Parliament and those wishing to be elected to the House right hon. Friend agree that investing in apprenticeships to do our bit and keep the faith with our brave heroes. is an important way of investing in recovery? Does he May I invite my right hon. Friend to sign the Royal therefore share my despair at the action of Tory South British Legion pledge in support of our armed forces Ribble borough council in abandoning its apprenticeships family? scheme, and will he urge it to reconsider that and thereby show for once that the Tories are interested in The Prime Minister: I would be delighted to, and the young people and their futures? Defence Secretary has already done so. I pay tribute to the outstanding work of the Royal British Legion and The Prime Minister: It is difficult to know what the welcome its continued support to our armed forces and Tory party policy is on anything at the moment, and veterans. The Government support our service personnel such is the lack of clarity that certainly for 2010 I could and their families, and our services Command Paper not guarantee that any apprenticeships that my hon. was an attempt to show how we do so right across the Friend wishes to support would be supported by the services. The Green Paper published today by the Secretary Tory party.We have trebled the number of apprenticeships; of State for Defence reiterates our commitment to there are 250,000 of them now. We want to give every doing this. young person the chance to get an apprenticeship, if 299 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 300 they have the qualifications to do so. Throughout the has the guarantee that they will get work or training, recession, we have been trying to maintain apprenticeships and that the services available to those who are unemployed so that young people have the qualifications for the jobs are better than they have ever been. The result of that is of the future. There is only one party opposing that and that 300,000 people are leaving the unemployment register opposing the expenditure on education, training and every month, and that employment is at a higher level employment, and that is the Conservative party. and unemployment a lower level than people expected months ago. Q6. [314802] Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): All those involved in the 1998 defence review know that the Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): Prime Minister’s only interest was to get a £1 billion cut Even though the claimant count is 48 per cent. down in from the Conservative expenditure plans, which was my constituency, it is nevertheless a great disappointment reduced to £500 million a year only by the intervention to hear of Bowater going into administration. Will my of the Chief of the Defence Staff. Why is it that the right hon. Friend do what he can to ensure that the Prime Minister is inviting us to believe that all the parent company’s actions are investigated—it seems to distinguished servicemen and civil servants who have be playing fast and loose with the British work force—and given evidence to Chilcot on the chaos surrounding the that the work force affected and the supply chain are financing and provision of equipment in the run-up to given every possible support? Iraq are wrong, and he is right? The Prime Minister: I know that the regional development The Prime Minister: The figures show that defence agency stands ready to help my hon. Friend’s constituents expenditure was rising every year in real terms, and that and the company that is in difficulty. This is clearly a they were the biggest rises for 20 years. The figures also difficult time for the work force. The administrators show that every single urgent operational requirement have said that in this case they will keep the business that the Ministry of Defence asked of us for Iraq and trading while they explore all options, which include Afghanistan has been met. I am afraid it is the Opposition looking for a buyer for the business. I can assure him who are having difficulty with figures at the moment. that all the local agencies, including the rapid response Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): My right hon. Friend teams at the jobcentre, will be available to help those has come under severe attack for not cutting the deficit workers in his constituency who are affected. fast enough or hard enough, but those who made those calls in this House seem to agree with him now. Does he Q8. [314804] Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I think that that is what is meant by the statement that it am sure that the Prime Minister is aware that in is “a year for change” on the airbrushed Conservative percentage terms the population of the United poster? Kingdom and Ireland is the greatest reservoir of the prion that causes the fatal and incurable human brain The Prime Minister: It is a year for the Conservatives disease variant vCJD. One of the means of changing their mind every week about every single transmission is blood transfusion. Last October, the policy that they put forward. Two weeks ago, the Leader Government’s scientific committee that is examining of the Opposition said that it would be “moral cowardice” this issue recommended the use of a filter for blood for not to tear up the Budget for 2010. The shadow Business transfusion for children initially. When are the Secretary then said that there would be “calamitous Government going to react to that recommendation? consequences” if that were to happen. Now the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury is boasting that he does The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises a “not have a detailed plan”. very serious matter in great detail. That recommendation In other words, not only do the people not know where is obviously very important for the future of the blood the Conservative party stands, but the Conservative transfusion service. I shall look at it very carefully and party does not know where it stands. get back to him.

Q7. [314803] Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Q9. [314805] Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): Thanks to the assistance of Finance Wales, the staff of Can the Prime Minister confirm that inheritance tax the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and cuts of £200,000 for the richest 3,000 families could be Skills and the Royal Bank of Scotland, we have secured achieved only at the expense of spending on schools up to 100 new jobs at Regal Fayre in Montgomery. and hospitals throughout the nation? If he rejects that However, those are more than outweighed by policy, can he guarantee that there will be no 180 potential redundancies in Shop Direct’s Newtown Cameronian wobble on this side of the House? call centre. Could the Prime Minister arrange a meeting with the relevant Minister, once I have met Shop The Prime Minister: The one thing that the Conservatives Direct’s senior management tomorrow morning, to have stuck to through this month of muddle and division discuss this possible closure, which could cause a is their policy on inheritance tax. Like their policy on localised new recession in Montgomeryshire? hereditary peers, it will give the richest people in our society the greatest amount of additional wealth. That The Prime Minister: I understand the concern when could be at the expense of schools, it could be at any jobs are lost; it is a personal tragedy for those the expense of the health service and it could also be at people who have, in many cases, given their lives to one the expense of defence. I think people should know that company, which is unable to continue to employ them. I the Conservative party’s first priority, above all others, shall arrange for these meetings that the hon. Gentleman is to reduce inheritance tax for those who are perfectly asks for to take place. I can assure him that every able to take care of themselves. We are for the many, teenager who has been unemployed for six months now they are for the few. 301 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 302

Q10. [314806] Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and proposal for a married couple’s or married man’s allowance Holderness) (Con): Health funding is skewed towards would be fair to widows or to people who had been younger, urban, Labour-voting areas, rather than abandoned by their partners. towards older, rural areas such as my constituency. That is why Hull receives more than £1,800 per head Q13. [314809] Mr. Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) whereas East Riding receives just £1,200 per head. The (Con): Last year, Lord Mandelson launched a Prime Minister knows that age, not deprivation, is £1 billion strategic investment fund. It was designed to the key driver of health need, so why does he put the help industries across the country. I know that the electoral interests of the Labour party ahead of the Prime Minister struggled when asked about £50,000 needs of the sick? earlier, but let me try him with this number: why is it that 90 per cent. of that fund does not help industry The Prime Minister: I have to say to the hon. Gentleman across the country but has been given to Labour that the evidence is that in his region there are 12 new constituencies? hospitals and 37,000 more NHS staff. We have doubled expenditure on the national health service so that everyone The Prime Minister: The purpose of all our measures in our country will benefit and we are giving personal in the recession is to help industry and business out of guarantees to every citizen of this country that they will recession. Some 300,000 businesses have been helped in receive cancer treatment within two weeks, that they all constituencies across the country. The difference will be in a position to get an operation within 18 weeks, between us is that the Conservatives opposed all our that they will get regular check-ups and, at the same measures and we took the action to get us out of time, that they will be able to see a doctor at weekends recession. We are taking action to keep us out of recession, or in the evening. The party that has resisted giving while the Conservatives do not have a clue what they rights to every citizen is the Conservative party. would do in 2010. Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Does Q11. [314807] Mr. Brian Jenkins (Tamworth) (Lab): the Prime Minister welcome the proposals announced My right hon. Friend is only too aware that we have, last week for licensing and planning concerning houses regrettably, too many war widows, to whom this in multiple occupation? Will he urge local authorities country owes a great deal. Will he promise, in any with a high concentration of HMOs, such as Southampton, Administration that he runs, to stop any suggestion to to make early use of the powers that they will gain? make those people relatively worse off, via the tax system, because they are not married? The Prime Minister: I know my hon. Friend has taken this issue up on many occasions and that it is an The Prime Minister: There should be no discrimination important issue when dealing with cities such as against widows and no discrimination against those Southampton, where there are houses in multiple who have been abandoned by their partners. That is occupation. I can assure him that we will be urging why we have a system of individual taxation and special councils such as those in his area to take up these allowances for widows. I would hesitate to say that the proposals with speed. 303 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Strategic Defence Review (Green 304 Paper) Strategic Defence Review (Green Paper) The second conclusion is that defence must improve its ability to work in partnership with our key allies and security institutions to make the most of our combined 12.32 pm resources. Our alliances and partnerships will become The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): increasingly important and will define how successful Today I am publishing a defence Green Paper that we will be in meeting the challenges that we face. We paves the way for a strategic defence review, set in the will strengthen our alliance with the United States if we context of the national security strategy, early in the strengthen our position in Europe. We will continue to next Parliament. At the present time, Afghanistan is press our European allies to contribute more to our the main effort for the Ministry of Defence. Where collective defence effort, but, make no mistake, this is choices have to be made, Afghanistan will continue to not about Europe taking precedence over the US, or be given priority. Our forces there are fighting hard, vice versa—the two are mutually reinforcing relationships. protecting our national security by preventing Afghanistan In the UK, we need to improve further our partnerships from once again becoming a safe haven for terrorists. with key Whitehall Departments and others to ensure Two hundred and fifty three British service personnel that the contribution of our armed forces is joined up have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001. Many more with our diplomatic and development efforts. In addition have suffered life-changing injuries. Their bravery in the to its conclusions on adaptability and partnership, the face of a ruthless enemy has been a stark reminder to us paper poses six key strategic questions that the review that all conflict is difficult and dangerous. We certainly will need to address. They are as follows. Where should cannot assume that the conflicts of tomorrow will we set the balance between focusing on our territory replicate those of today, but we must anticipate a wide and region and on engaging threats at distance? How range of threats and plan for the requirements necessary far are future conflicts likely to share the characteristics to counter them. of our engagement in Afghanistan, and what approach We have come a long way since the last major defence should we therefore take if we employ armed force to review in 1998, which gave us the platform to modernise address threats at distance? What contribution should our armed forces. Looking forward, we will need to our armed forces make to ensuring security and contributing make decisions about the role that we want the United to resilience within the UK? How could we more effectively Kingdom to play in the world and about the capabilities employ armed force in support of wider efforts to that our armed forces need to support that role. We will prevent conflict and to strengthen international stability? need to balance those considerations against financial Do our current international defence and security implications in what will inevitably be a resource-constrained relationships require rebalancing in the longer term? environment. The Green Paper does not attempt to Should we further integrate our forces with those of our answer those fundamental questions. Instead, it is intended key allies and partners? to set out our emerging thinking on the future security Although the defence budget has grown by over environment and on other key issues facing defence 10 per cent. in real terms since 1998—and not a penny ahead of the review. will be cut from next year’s budget—the forward defence Although there is no external direct threat to the programme faces real financial pressure. We will need to territorial integrity of the UK, there are a wide range of rebalance what we do in order to meet our priorities. In emerging threats for which we must be prepared. We December, I began that process. I made a series of can work to diminish the threat of international terrorism decisions to ensure that we found extra resources for and to counter the proliferation of chemical, biological vital equipment for Afghanistan. This included 22 new and nuclear weapons; we can work to prevent emerging Chinook helicopters, which will provide necessary strategic threats—for example, by improving our approach to lift capability for Afghanistan and for other military cybersecurity—and to contain and resolve the threat operations in the years ahead. However, our commitment from failing states; and we can work to ensure that the to reducing the deficit resulting from the global financial impacts of climate change and resource competition are crisis means that future resources across government managed peacefully, but my judgment is that conflict will be constrained. and instability in this new age will be an ever-present risk. In the face of those threats, no nation can hope to The report of Bernard Gray into defence acquisition protect all aspects of national security by acting alone. set out clearly the pressures facing the defence budget. We cannot simply defend from the goal line, and our It also set out the importance of improving our procurement defence posture must reflect that. processes and addressing the shortfalls in our acquisition systems. The strategy for acquisition reform published In the coming decades, our armed forces must be alongside today’s Green Paper sets out how we will prepared, if called upon to do so, to protect our interests, tackle the challenges facing this major area of defence often in distant places and, most likely, as part of a expenditure. The major reform that it proposes will coalition of international forces. The Green Paper therefore deliver enduring change by introducing greater transparency. reaches two key conclusions. First, that defence must It will ensure that our equipment plans are efficient, accelerate the process of reform and be able to change strategically focused, affordable and achievable. swiftly to address new and unforeseen challenges as they emerge. We need to be more adaptable in how we But it is not just in equipment acquisition that we will structure, equip, train and generate our armed forces. need to do better. We are aiming to deliver efficiency We need a more agile defence organisation, and we need savings of more than £3 billion over the current spending more responsive strategic planning. Today, I am proposing review period. We have a strong programme of work to that we should legislate for regular defence reviews to achieve this, including an independent review into the ensure that the armed forces continue to adapt rapidly use of civilians in defence that is being led by Gerry to changing trends and threats. Grimstone. 305 Strategic Defence Review (Green 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Strategic Defence Review (Green 306 Paper) Paper) [Mr. Bob Ainsworth] balanced and open-minded Green Paper. I know that his experience in the Ministry of Defence was very Our biggest capability is our people. We rely on the much appreciated in the process. ability of people, both military and civilian, to deliver The Green Paper indicates that the Ministry of Defence defence. We need to attract the best people—people is coming out of denial, but that the Prime Minister is who are highly motivated and highly skilled. Our people not. We are used to the Prime Minister briefing against have already shown their capacity to adapt to new his perceived enemies in the corridors of Westminster, challenges. We must continue to ensure that the structures but not normally undermining a Secretary of State on and training that support them are fit for purpose, and the front page of The Times. How far away from the that includes continuing to strengthen joint approaches No. 10 briefing this week is paragraph 9 on page 9 of across the services. the Green Paper, which states: There has been a great deal of interest in, and speculation about, whether any major capabilities will be confirmed “We cannot proceed with all the activities and programmes we currently aspire to, while simultaneously supporting our current in the Green Paper, but that is to misunderstand the operations and investing in the new capabilities we need. We will purpose. I can say that we do not plan to revisit the need to make tough decisions”? conclusions of the 2006 White Paper on the nuclear deterrent. We have committed to a wide range of major Of course, this week we have seen the truth of the capability improvements over the past few years including, current Prime Minister’s approach to defence. The former most recently, signing contracts for two new aircraft Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member for Ashfield carriers. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] Only two. (Mr. Hoon) has said that there was a strong feeling that the last defence review was not fully funded. The former Recent operations in Iraq and Afghanistan have Chief of the Defence Staff, Lord Walker, told us that demonstrated the importance of being able to deploy the defence chiefs threatened to resign as a result of the and sustain significant numbers of highly trained and savage cuts that the then Chancellor tried to apply to equipped troops in a variety of roles, including providing defence in the middle of two wars. Today the former the aviation and air support that they need. Unless the permanent secretary, Sir Kevin Tebbit, talked about defence review takes a very radical new direction, it is having to operate a permanent crisis budget. the Government’s position that those capabilities are likely to remain critical elements of our force structure. The Defence Secretary introduced defence cuts in However, we need to know first what roles and missions December, but the Prime Minister this week was talking we will expect our forces to undertake in the future about increasing the defence budget. In his statement before we can take final decisions about the capabilities the Secretary of State said, “There has been a great deal that they will need. These will be key issues for the of interest in, and speculation about, whether any major defence review. capabilities will be confirmed in the Green Paper”. We Let us be clear—change is needed, and there will be all know why. It is because No. 10 has been briefing all some tough and important decisions ahead. In my view, week that any project that has any job implications for we must, as far possible, put aside our special interests, the Prime Minister’s constituency will be spared in in politics, industry and the services, to take rational any defence review. That is taking a core strategy way decisions that benefit defence and the security of our too far. nation. There are some things on which we are clearly agreed. In preparing the Green Paper, I consulted widely with We know from bitter historical experience the difficulty academia, across government and with the main Opposition of predicting future conflict—either its nature or its parties, and I am grateful for the help that I received. I location. We cannot base our future security on the would like to thank in this House the right hon. and assumption that future wars will be like the current learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies ones. That is why we must maintain generic capability Campbell) and the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex and be able to adapt to any changing threats. (Mr. Soames), and Lord Robertson of Port Ellen in the There is no doubt that in Afghanistan we have been other place, all of whom sat on my Defence Advisory too slow to give the Army, in particular, the agility and Forum. Where the defence of the nation is concerned, flexibility that it needs to maximise its effectiveness. But we must seek as far as possible to reach consensus on we must also remember that we are a maritime nation the main issues. dependent on the sea lanes for 92 per cent. of our trade. I hope that the Green Paper that I am publishing A time when the threat of disruption is increasing is no today helps that process and leads to a mature and time for Britain to become sea blind. well-informed debate about the future structure of our armed forces. We agree that France and the United States are likely to be our main strategic partners. For us there are two Dr. Liam Fox (Woodspring) (Con): I thank the Secretary tests: do they invest in defence, and do they fight? Sadly, of State for his statement and for prior sight of it, too few European allies pass both these tests. although we seem to be the last to have seen the Green The Secretary of State talked about a 10 per cent. Paper, since every journalist I have met this week has increase in the defence budget in real terms. He also been telling me about its contents. The Secretary of talks in the Green Paper about the higher level of State deserves genuine praise for his attempts to find a defence inflation. Can he tell us how much of the cross-party consensus. When the history of this dreadful increase in the defence budget has gone into pay, allowances Government is written, his will be one of the more and pensions, and what proportion of the increase has honourable mentions. been available for equipment and other programmes I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex over the period that he outlined? Can he confirm that (Mr. Soames) for the effort that he put into producing a the Department’s budget for next year will be £36.89 billion, 307 Strategic Defence Review (Green 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Strategic Defence Review (Green 308 Paper) Paper) as previously set out? He says that not a penny will be that the strategic defence review must answer. However, cut, notably from next year’s budget. What cuts do the that agenda is unbalanced by the omission of one item: Govt envisage after that? the replacement of Trident. A few minutes ago, the Unlike the Opposition and the House of Commons, Prime Minister responded to a question about it by the Government have access to all the costs of the looking at the issue from a strategic security point of contracts and all the penalty clauses for the major view, and I agree that that is the starting point, but programmes. Why will the Government not give honest surely the scale and the timing of any replacement of answers about the implications of the cost overruns in the Trident deterrent has profound opportunity cost the years ahead? We know that there has been serial implications for the entirety of the rest of the defence mismanagement at the MOD, with the equipment budget. A strategic defence review cannot be genuinely programme being somewhere between £6 billion and comprehensive if the biggest single strategic and spending £35 billion above what can currently be afforded. How decision is parked outwith its framework. will it be reconciled? The statement rightly identified that the strategic After 12 years of indecision, we finally get a Green defence review needs first to ask, what role does Britain Paper weeks before a general election, and, despite all want to play in global security? I agree with the Defence its good words and all the good intentions of the Secretary that it would not be appropriate for us to Secretary of State, the future defence budget of the “defend from the goal line”, and that we should be United Kingdom will have to be determined against prepared to go to distant places in our national interests, the backdrop of Government debt of £799 billion, but are we going to learn from our mistakes? In particular, which is the equivalent of having borrowed £1.1 million the 1998 assumption that we would be quick in and every day since the birth of Christ. That our nation’s quick out of some engagements has not turned out to security should be compromised in this way by Labour’s be correct. Should we not also learn the lesson that historic economic incompetence is truly a national tragedy. invading Iraq without the support of many of our usual allies and with dubious legal cover made the operation Mr. Ainsworth: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his a great deal more difficult to prosecute thereafter? kind comments— despite his motives in making them. Can I just point out one thing to him? He claimed that I I strongly welcome the Defence Secretary’s remarks made defence cuts in December, yet in the same response about a greater importance for co-operation within he said that we were a little late in providing the wherewithal Europe on defence matters. The Americans’ strategic for the Army in Afghanistan. We did not make defence interests and financial resources mean that in the next cuts in December; we prioritised, over three years, few decades they will not be able to make the contribution £900 million of the core defence budget for equipment to European defence that they have made in previous that was needed for the Afghan conflict. We are doing decades. It is absolutely right that the Americans remain that, but he criticises us for not doing it, and then he our key strategic ally, but we can contribute more to claims that those measures were cuts when, in fact, they that relationship if we better harness the efforts of were reprioritisations. They were reprioritisations within Europe in its own cause. a budget that never fell. I do not know whether the hon. An interesting observation in the statement was the Gentleman is prepared to admit or accept that. The restatement of the 1998 assumption that there is no budget never fell; I moved money within the budget. It external direct threat to the United Kingdom. The was right to do so, and I make no apology for that, but Defence Secretary went on to talk about accelerating one thing that I say in the Green Paper—and I think I reform and the need to be more adaptable. I entirely say it with the genuine support of many people who agree, but I urge him to be bolder and to go further not know about these matters—is that our planning structures only with reform, but with making ourselves agile enough will have to be more adaptable. We cannot have planning to face emerging threats. We still have troops in Germany assumptions that effectively prevent us from moving who seem to be prepared for the unlikely eventuality of money within the budget when there are pressing needs; the Soviets arriving with their tanks. There is a great we have to have a structure that supports the adaptability deal more work to be done, but I welcome the direction of our armed forces. That must be the overwhelming that the Defence Secretary has pointed out. priority. Finally, we still have troops in Afghanistan, and we The hon. Gentleman talked about the problems with will have for many years yet. We know that there is the equipment programme, but I remind him that it was pressure on the defence budget, but surely we all agree this Government who commissioned the Gray report. that ensuring that those troops continue to have everything We did so to get to the bottom of problems that do exist they need is the top priority that cannot be sacrificed to but, when judged against international comparators, anything else. are no worse than hardly any and, indeed, better than many. But, those problems need to be addressed, and Mr. Ainsworth: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his there are inefficiencies. We commissioned the Gray report, response. He takes these issues seriously and studies and I hope that, when the hon. Gentleman has the time them, and I hope that he finds the Green Paper a useful to study it properly, he will see that there is a real tool for his thinking as we move towards the strategic way—albeit an uncomfortable one for future Ministers—of defence review. ensuring that we have a defence procurement methodology that prevents the overruns that we have had. Transparency The reason why Trident was not included in the will be the main tool for doing that, but regular defence Green Paper was that we had to take a strategic decision reviews, enshrined in legislation, will help as well. in 2006 to replace the deterrent if we genuinely wanted to maintain both the skill base in Barrow and our Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): I thank the Defence ability to build nuclear submarines. If we had not taken Secretary for his statement and for the Green Paper, that decision, the risk to our ability would have been which is a well-judged attempt to frame the questions profound, and, having done so, we see no reason to 309 Strategic Defence Review (Green 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Strategic Defence Review (Green 310 Paper) Paper) [Mr. Bob Ainsworth] Mr. James Arbuthnot (North-East Hampshire) (Con): I am grateful for prior sight of the statement and of the attempt to revisit or re-take it. If we did so, that would Green Paper, which is fine, and helpful. I entirely agree be destructive. We took the decision, and the time scales with the Secretary of State that the more discussion we in developing nuclear submarines are considerable. That can have on this, the better, and I am glad that he has is why the decision had to be taken when it was. started it off. The Bernard Gray report suggested a The hon. Gentleman will find that the Green Paper 10-year rolling budget. Does the Secretary of State acknowledges that the possibility of quick in, quick out agree that a 10-year indicative planning horizon is a was thought about and hoped for. However, we have watering down of that proposal, and was it the Treasury not been able or prepared to remove ourselves from that objected? some of our operations, and we have been enduring Mr. Ainsworth: The longer the planning horizons that counter-insurgency as a result. That has profound we can have in this regard, the better off we are, so we implications, because if we want to maintain our ability have obviously been discussing that within Government. to conduct operations like those that we are undertaking The provision of the indicative budgets will be a great in Afghanistan, we must address that issue, among help, particularly on the equipment side. However, that, others. on its own, will not get us to where we need to be. I really believe that the US contribution will continue Transparency, uncomfortable though it will be, is something for the foreseeable future, but I do not believe, as which the right hon. Gentleman’s Committee, the Defence some—not all—Conservative Members do, that there is Committee, has been advocating for some time, and it an alternative to an Atlantic relationship or a European will be the big tool in getting us to a better place. relationship. Our strength in Europe enhances our position with the United States of America. I believe that the Several hon. Members rose— two are complementary, and we should pursue both. Mr. Speaker: Order. A further 22 right hon. and hon. Our forces are based in Germany not in anticipation Members are seeking to catch my eye. I should like to of the Russians coming over, although that is the historical accommodate everybody, but there is important business reason why they are there. They are there because bases to follow, so short questions and short answers are were built, and that is where they are based. Over time required. we have reduced our footprint, and over time I should expect us to continue to do so, but that is effectively Mr. David S. Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab): On Friday, their home. I am enormously pleased that they are I will be visiting BAE Systems’ plant at Samlesbury in made welcome in Germany, and that we will continue to Lancashire, where the joint strike fighter is being built. have a close relationship with the German authorities. Some £800 million has been invested in the plant, and the aircraft are due to fly off the two aircraft carriers Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome that my right hon. Friend mentioned. His colleague, the the statement and accompanying papers and the emphasis Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend places on adaptability and the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies), partnership to meet not only the ongoing commitments mentioned to the Defence Committee the Government’s in Afghanistan but the uncertainty that lies beyond commitment to an order of 140 aircraft. I am sure that that. He concluded by saying that he hoped that there when I visit the plant on Friday the work force would be would be “a mature and well-informed debate about the pleased if I could confirm that the Secretary of State future structure of our armed forces.” Given that this had made a similar commitment. time last year 29 per cent. of personnel deployed in Afghanistan were naval personnel, can he confirm that Mr. Ainsworth: Over time, our plans are to base our this work on the future structure of the armed forces air capability principally on two aircraft—the Typhoon will recognise the naval contribution? and the joint strike fighter. The numbers and the particular capabilities of either of those will need to be considered in the defence review. I hope that my hon. Friend takes Mr. Ainsworth: In response to my hon. Friend’s final heart from the fact that even with the movement of question, yes, of course, it is absolutely necessary and resources in December towards the Afghan mission, I vital that we have that rounded debate and that we brought forward the Typhoon capability upgrade, which appreciate our geographical location and our dependence means that I understand the importance of maintaining on the maritime environment. The existence of and our air capability. necessity for naval capability is therefore an issue that we must consider seriously. Mr. Nicholas Soames (Mid-Sussex) (Con): May I In many ways, the strategic defence debate has already thank the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the started, and the Green Paper is a contribution to that. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) for their kind words We have already been consulting widely and provoking and say what an honour it was to serve on the Defence other people to join in the debate. Papers are coming Advisory Forum? out of the Royal United Services Institute and other Having heard the Prime Minister’s thoroughly slippery think-tanks and organisations, which are a great and entirely inaccurate answers on defence matters at contribution to the debate, and those on the Front today’s Prime Minister’s questions, will the Secretary of Benches and Back Benches are turning their minds to it, State confirm that good though this Green Paper is—and as are others in the country. I really wanted to encourage it is a good piece of work—a great deal more thinking that debate when I embarked on this programme, and I needs to go on in respect of foreign policy? The foreign hope that this Green Paper has made, and will make, a policy baseline needs to be the architecture on which contribution to it. the security and defence review will be based. 311 Strategic Defence Review (Green 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Strategic Defence Review (Green 312 Paper) Paper) Mr. Ainsworth: This Green Paper is clearly grounded we become more technologically dependent. A lot of in the security documentation that the Government investment has already been made in cyber defence and have produced, and I hope that it is consistent with our associated matters, but it is an issue to which we must foreign policy objectives; I have no reason to believe give constant thought. that it is not. The Foreign Office has had the same kind of input as the hon. Gentleman has had. We have been Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I welcome the Secretary showing him drafts, and he has been providing input of State’s statement and the strategic defence review. I and helping to mould this work as it has gone forward. I note with sadness that he chose not to have talks with do not think that his fears are well founded; I hope that all parties in the House; perhaps that can be remedied in they are not. future. In Scotland, since Labour came to power, more than Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): If I may say 10,000 defence jobs have been lost, regiments have been so, I found the Secretary of State’s statement rather amalgamated, and bases have been closed. According depressing. There was no mention of a peace process, to the Ministry of Defence’s own statistics, between no mention of international law, and no mention of the 2002 and 2007 there was a £4.3 billion defence underspend United Nations. How on earth can one have a review of in Scotland. Does the Secretary of State agree that the defence capabilities without including the nuclear question strategic defence review must take account of defence and the replacement of Trident, which forms such a spending and the defence footprint across the nations massive part of our future expenditure? We could save and regions of the United Kingdom? £76 billion over the next 20 years by cancelling the Trident programme, so helping to bring about world Mr. Ainsworth: I personally get on very well with the disarmament. hon. Gentleman—I want to say that at the start. However, I sadly point out rather than in any other way that in Mr. Ainsworth: I am not surprised that my hon. seeking to establish the Defence Advisory Forum and Friend and I have failed to reach a consensus on the capture other political views, if I had thought I would nuclear issue. If he reads the Green Paper that I have get a constructive contribution from the Scottish National produced—I commend it to him—he will see that the party, I would have included it. However, I genuinely United Nations figures quite considerably. Of course, thought that any points from its representatives would we want to support the security apparatus that provides have been parochial point scoring rather than genuine not only for our own security but for good relations input into the planning of the future of defence for the throughout the world, and the United Nations is a very United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. important part of that. If we can promote peace in any and every way, and to the maximum degree of our Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): My friend talks ability, we should do so, but we should not be naive in all the time about “our people”, but a steadily rising thinking that that will always be the case. We therefore number of our people are recruits from the Commonwealth have to accept the need for capable armed forces of the with no direct experience of life in the UK. Does the kind that we have today and that we will need in future. Green Paper say anything about future manpower planning, Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): May I add if I can use that term, and where the recruits are going my thanks to the Secretary of State for the way in which to come from? he has sought to engage with a wide range of people on this Green Paper? Does he agree, however, that this Mr. Ainsworth: What my hon. Friend says was certainly would not be the moment for an east of Suez retrenchment true for a fairly long period, when we had an increasing of the United Kingdom under financial pressures, that contingency from across the Commonwealth. That trend we cannot afford the luxury of withdrawing back to our has gone down, which may well be connected with the home base, and that it is extremely unlikely that we can recession and job opportunities—I am not sure. We are sustain our global role unless we maintain increases in now as near as we have ever been to full manning in the defence expenditure? Army, but we need to maintain the high-level skills that we need at every rank. We are not talking just about Mr. Ainsworth: The financial pressures are real, and officers, and when we see how our armed forces operate they will have to be tackled. I agree with the hon. we see that they need more than bravery. The adaptability Gentleman that we should not retreat to the goal line, as and brain power that the lower ranks bring to problem I put it, and that we should continue to play our part in solving is impressive, so of course we must plan for how the world. However, if we are not increasingly efficient we can keep those people satisfied and employed in the and agile in doing so, and if we are not prepared to armed forces. accept that we have to do it with others—that we cannot be unilaterally secure—then financial pressures Mr. Douglas Carswell (Harwich) (Con): Will the strategic may well force us in the direction he describes. review allow for more off-the-shelf procurement? Will it call time on the ruinously wasteful protectionism in the Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): I warmly defence industrial strategy, and if not, why not? welcome the thoughtful statement by the Secretary of State. In terms of emergent threats, where is the reference Mr. Ainsworth: The hon. Gentleman takes the view, to cyber attacks, accepting and acknowledging that, for which is not widely shared in the House, that we can many, those present the greatest threat to our security? simply buy cheaply and readily off the shelf from what is available on the market. There would be consequences Mr. Ainsworth: Passages in the Green Paper refer to for us in doing that. If we buy jets, helicopters or ships the cyber environment, because we must be mindful of from abroad and lose the technological capability to the great vulnerabilities to which we may be subject as produce such items ourselves, we will probably never be 313 Strategic Defence Review (Green 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Strategic Defence Review (Green 314 Paper) Paper) [Mr. Bob Ainsworth] policy needs to be flushed out—he is very good at doing that, and I wish him every success—but in producing able to gain it again, and we will be sold what is the Green Paper I never sought to divide people. I effectively second-class equipment. That is the inevitable sought to bring them together. consequence. It may well be cheaper, but it will probably be second-class. That is why we have the defence industrial Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher and Walton) (Con): I commend strategy, which decides where we can afford to go in the the Secretary of State for raising as one of his strategic market, where we can afford to buy cheaply and where questions the matter of armed forces ensuring security we need to maintain our own industrial capability onshore. and contributing to resilience in the UK. The Institute for Public Policy Research’s commission on national Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The public’s response to security, of which I was a member, stressed the importance soldiers returning from conflicts has demonstrated that of that. Has he looked again at the 1960s civil contingencies they want our armed forces and the members of them legislation and considered whether we should have a to be held in the highest regard. Will my right hon. homeland security force, who would staff it and how it Friend ensure that part of the review is the care and would work with the Home Office and local government rehabilitation of soldiers returning from conflicts, who agencies? That is a serious matter in protecting our often come back traumatised and needing support, and critical national infrastructure, particularly if we get particularly ensuring that those who are injured in the pandemics. service of their country get the best form of treatment and that the families of the fallen are looked after? Mr. Ainsworth: It is true to say that we have been Mr. Ainsworth: We need to recognise that the way in going in the opposite direction, because other organisations, which we treat our armed forces has an impact on our particularly the police, have developed better capabilities ability to recruit the high-calibre people whom we want. so that they do not depend on our armed forces. However, The detailed work on how we take forward our welfare we need to think through how far that process should programmes for both veterans and serving personnel is go. That is why the matter is flagged up in the Green being undertaken by the Under-Secretary of State, my Paper, so that we can consider it, tackle it and come to a hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones). conclusion. There are aspects that we yet want to improve, despite the improvements that we have made over the years in Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The Secretary of State the service personnel Command Paper and so on, and said, “Our biggest capability is our people…military we may make further statements in the near future on and civilian”, and their ability to deliver defence. He aspects of welfare for parts of our armed forces. was completely silent on the need for decent housing, whether it be single or family accommodation. Although Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): How can I acknowledge the disaster of the privatisation of family the Secretary of State justify taking the decision now to housing by the previous Government, does he agree close RAF Cottesmore in Rutland before the completion that the Government have had plenty of time to put of the defence review, when the economics of doing so that right? If retention is still an important part of the must be totally unclear? Government’s thinking, decent housing for our married soldiers is a priority. Mr. Ainsworth: I understand that the hon. Gentleman is representing his constituents assiduously, but the Mr. Ainsworth: The hon. Gentleman knows that we needs of Afghanistan and the priority that needed to be have invested hugely in the estate, and his constituency given to it, and therefore the need to continue to take and constituents have been the beneficiaries of considerable the money that was specifically available for the operation investment. However, we need to consider to what degree from the Treasury reserve and to adjust the core budget, our structures should encourage home ownership among were justifiable and overriding. There were consequences our armed forces. Many of them are going that way in of that, and I am sad to say that one of them fell in his any case, so we must consider to what degree we should constituency. continue to encourage them to be tied to the provision of housing that goes with accompanied service. We have Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): to grapple with that issue, and it is raised in the Green May I ask the Secretary of State how successful he has Paper so that we can think about it in the defence been in building a consensus with the Opposition parties strategic review. on the future of the Royal Navy and the need for there to be thousands of jobs in the UK in building aircraft People worry about the potential effects of losing carriers? In the drive to build a consensus, is he willing accompanied service accommodation, but societal trends to meet representatives of the work force engaged in appear to be going in that direction in any case. It seems building the carriers, and will he use his good offices to to be the desire of most people to own their own home, try to arrange meetings with the leaders of the Opposition and that applies to service personnel as to anybody else. parties so that they can hopefully be drawn into that consensus? David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Bernard Gray found that too many types of equipment were being Mr. Ainsworth: We took the decision to build the ordered for too many tasks at too high a specification. carriers, and my hon. Friend was deeply disappointed Is it not a great sadness that the Government have only that we did not decide to build five or six rather than the just commissioned this review, having been in office for two to which we committed. However, we took that so long? Does not the Secretary of State feel that some decision and are getting on with it, and the carriers are of the problems in defence lie at the very heart of his in the process of being built. I know that the Opposition’s Department? 315 Strategic Defence Review (Green 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Strategic Defence Review (Green 316 Paper) Paper) Mr. Ainsworth: When one looks for international Mr. Ainsworth: I hope so. That is why those passages comparators, one struggles to find anybody who does are there. I think societal trends will push us, in the long such things in a pristine manner. We are no worse than term, in the direction of making more use, not less, of many, many others, but there is huge ground for reserve forces. Therefore, the need to ensure that they improvement in my opinion. That is why my predecessor are highly trained and capable people is going to take commissioned Bernard Gray to do that report in the on increasing importance. Those issues are flagged up first place, and why the Minister of State, Lord Paul in the Green Paper and the questions that we have Drayson, took a hold of it and produced the acquisition posed are out there for debate, and I hope that that reform strategy, which I think will address the issues matter will be addressed in the strategic defence review. raised by the hon. Gentleman. Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Does the Secretary Mr. Michael Jack (Fylde) (Con): The Secretary of of State note, seeing as he has made the statement, that State will be aware of the developing world-class technology there is not a single reference to NATO in it, which is at BAE Warton in my constituency, which is seeing the simply stupendous and quite astonishing? Why is there production of unmanned and autonomous air vehicles. also no reference to the European Union? Europe is one Will the debate he has triggered by the publication of thing and allies are another. Can he remember what the Green Paper enable a decision to be made as to happened with the French off Djibouti? Can he remember whether that technology should be counted as a sovereign what happened when the Belgians would not provide us technology for the United Kingdom? with any ammunition? Can he remember what happened over the Iraq conflict? Can he remember what happened with respect to the Germans in Afghanistan? Does he Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, that is something that has got to not realise that we must have a proper, coherent policy be looked at. I would just remind the right hon. Gentleman that includes NATO? that some of his hon. Friends suggested that I was paying for today at the expense of tomorrow when I Mr. Speaker: Order. That was a quintet of questions, moved some resources for the purchase of drones. I but one answer will suffice. think such capability is exactly “tomorrow”, whether that means in Afghanistan or anywhere else. The kind Mr. Ainsworth: Unless I misread my speech or there of thing the right hon. Gentleman mentioned is what was a late draft or whatever, NATO, the European we need to think about. Union and the United States of America were all mentioned. The hon. Gentleman will find that they are Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): liberally mentioned—appropriately—in the Green Paper, May I assure the Secretary of State that we in Northern which I commend to him. Ireland and our friends in Scotland and Wales are not parochial when it comes to providing our best young Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Should there people—men and women—to serve in the armed forces? not be a step change increase in the use of our reserve Will he advise the House what proposals are contained forces if we are to provide Her Majesty with a more in the Green Paper to help to encourage young people flexible, adaptable and cost-effective armed forces in to join, particularly in the light of the proposals on the future? Is this not the golden opportunity of a generation university officer training corps and the Army Cadet to do that? Force? Mr. Ainsworth: Maybe. The question has been raised Mr. Ainsworth: I would add to what the right hon. and the strategic defence review will have to answer it, Gentleman says by saying that Northern Ireland provides and the hon. Gentleman has views that he will want to a home base for 19 Light Brigade, which is greatly make known. appreciated. Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): Was it not the We will get the talent that we need in the armed forces Ministry’s preoccupation with the European Union project only if people think it is an organisation that has a for the future rapid effect system that prevented it future in which they can build their careers and to having the ability to respond to the needs of our soldiers which they can make a real contribution. That impacts in both Iraq and Afghanistan, leading to a shortage of not only on welfare provision—soldiers are interested in appropriate equipment in both protected vehicles and, that, but they are also interested in the kind of organisation indeed, helicopters? Did I not note that the Secretary of that they are joining. They want to join capable armed State mentioned further integration as far as the European forces. Planning properly for the future to ensure that Union and defence are concerned, and may I warn him they can fulfil a role is the biggest single contribution we not to go down that route? If he does, caveat emptor. can make to attracting the talent we need. Mr. Ainsworth: The hon. Lady has looked into vehicle Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): It is welcome capability and developed quite a level of expertise in that the Green Paper contains a number of references to that area, but she knows that I fundamentally disagree reserve forces, following from the question asked by the with her. The vehicles that we have to have specifically right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Donaldson). to fight the mine threat in Afghanistan are superb and In their review, are the Government going to address exactly what is needed, but they would be of little use in the questions why we strike the balance between reserves different scenarios, such as a high-end attack from a and regulars so very differently from most of our English- capable and well equipped enemy. A Mastiff would speaking counterparts, and why they are able to make not last very long on a fast-moving battlefield. Therefore, so much more imaginative use of reserves than us? as I have said, we must plan for the many threats that we 317 Strategic Defence Review (Green 3 FEBRUARY 2010 318 Paper) [Mr. Bob Ainsworth] Desecration of War Memorials Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order might face. Directing all our resources towards Afghanistan No. 23) is something that we would need to think very seriously about. 1.28 pm Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will the Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I beg Secretary of State expand his thinking about integration to move, with our European allies? Would that ultimately lead to That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the law to make a situation in which some operations could not be provision about damage to war memorials; and for connected conducted without their support? purposes. Every Remembrance Sunday, war memorials up and Mr. Ainsworth: One of the big questions we must face down the country become the focal point for our national is to what degree we are prepared to integrate with, and ceremony of remembrance. From the plainest monuments therefore become dependent upon, our allies, whether to the grand Cenotaph in Whitehall, people gather to that is NATO or the EU, or the US, with which we have remember the glorious dead. For the rest of the year, a close association in military affairs. That is something war memorials fade from the public consciousness into that we must think about, but there are people in the the background of our lives. But they are still there, House—I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is exuding a quiet dignity tinged with sadness for those one of them—who have a view that we can be secure who have died for our country. They are more than rock unilaterally. However, I do not think that even the US and stone. In fact, the estimated 100,000 war memorials can be secure unilaterally in the modern world. Therefore, take the form of plaques, inscriptions on church pews, we must invest in our friends and alliances—we have no statues, arches and even bus shelters. But whatever the choice but to do so. form, they symbolise the values of service and sacrifice for our liberty that our country holds dear. Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Until 1997, there Conflicts such as that in Afghanistan have sadly was an annual defence White Paper, which was, to a made remembrance a continuous part of our national significant degree, the public presentation of the product life. Today, the Prime Minister again read out the names of the long-term costings exercise inside the Department, of those soldiers who have died in Afghanistan in our which reconciled the defence programme 10 years out. name. Those names, like those that have gone before The absence of that process or of any replacement for it them, will not be forgotten. That is what we say, and we means that the forward defence programme is now act—in one way—by inscribing those names on memorials. bearing all the risk. That was enumerated by Mr. Bernard Gray, who said in his report that I wish to introduce this Bill to ensure that we reflect the importance of war memorials. If enacted, the Bill “the forward Defence programme faces” would properly punish those who show such disregard real “financial pressures”. I am afraid that the Secretary by desecrating a war memorial. With the death of of State and his predecessors, but most of all the Prime Harry Patch, the last human thread connecting us to Minister, who has been either Prime Minister or Chancellor the great war generation may have been cut, but that throughout that period, have to bear the responsibility makes it all the more incumbent on us to retain and for this disaster for defence—that is what it is—and protect the physical thread that connects us to Harry reconcile it with the worst fiscal crisis for the Government Patch’s generation in the form of memorials. since the Invergordon mutiny. My interest in this issue was sadly first prompted by an appalling act of theft and criminal damage to the Mr. Ainsworth: Equally, I heard the Prime Minister Southgate memorial in Broomfield park in my constituency not so long ago tell the hon. Gentleman and his hon. last August. Two six-foot-by-four-foot bronze plaques Friends that it was they who went into the last election and nine smaller plates bearing the names of soldiers pledged to a £1.5 billion cut in the defence budget. who died in the two world wars, alongside civilians from Southgate who were killed in the blitz, were ripped out. We were outraged by this despicable act. In 1949, when opening the Southgate memorial, Alderman Wauthier said: “The Garden of Remembrance is a hallowed place and should not be interfered with”. Sixty years later, it was disgracefully interfered with, and the purpose of this Bill is to ensure that culprits get the punishment they deserve. The national media asked how this could happen. One radio programme was even dedicated to the question of whether Enfield was the meanest borough in London. I set about finding out whether this desecration is unique to my constituency. I take no pleasure in reporting to the House that in fact there have been an alarming number of incidents—57 reports in regional and national press in the last year of desecration of war memorials involving vandalism, theft and even public urination and defecation. This averages out to at least one war 319 Desecration of War Memorials3 FEBRUARY 2010 Desecration of War Memorials 320 memorial being desecrated every week. In fact, the lack smashed to bits and nothing taken. Finally, and most of any specific reporting of such offences means that serious of all, are the deliberate attacks aimed at desecrating the number of desecrations is probably much higher. the symbolic value of war memorials. I have come What particularly troubled me about the desecration across several incidents of Nazi swastikas being sprayed in my constituency was that the bronze plaques were on to war memorials. One of these included a memorial practically irreplaceable. We did not have any records of built to remember the victims of the holocaust. I find the names that were inscribed, and so when these plaques this particularly abhorrent, given that many of those were stolen there was a good chance that the names, memorials commemorate men who died fighting to and the memory, of those soldiers could have been lost keep this country free of fascism. Whether the actions forever. It sickens me—and, no doubt, the House—to are as a result of disrespect or deliberate malice, we think of those plates being melted down for scrap and must have tough sanctions. those names being consigned to oblivion. Thankfully, a So what is the state of the law at the moment? local man who had taken extensive photographs of the Currently there is no specific provision for desecration memorial a few years ago came forward. Together with of a war memorial. The problem with the law, as it the good work of the UK National Inventory of War stands, is that it primarily accounts for seriousness on Memorials, we are now able to replace the plaques. the basis of financial value of the damage. Unless the Other communities are not so lucky, with many memorials damage caused costs more than £5,000 to repair and not properly registered and recorded. replace, the maximum sentence that the magistrates The War Memorials Trust together with the national court can hand down is three months in prison. This inventory, based at the Imperial War museum, are doing simply does not accurately reflect the seriousness of the a sterling job to encourage registration of memorials, crime. but only 55,000 have so far been registered. I urge hon. The Bill would amend the Criminal Damage Act 1971 Members to find out how many war memorials there to recognise damage to war memorials. Crown Court are in their constituency by contacting the national judges would have the power to deal with these cases, inventory, and —as they pound the streets and visit with up to 10 years imprisonment at their disposal. community buildings in the coming weeks—to keep an Presently, there are no complete figures for attacks on eye out not only for floating voters, but for unregistered war memorials. By recognising war memorials in statute, war memorials. we would help the reporting of such incidents. Another The War Memorials Trust, which relies on voluntary benefit of this Bill would be the creation of a proper support, deserves our membership and support for its legal definition for war memorials. This has been the commendable and tireless work to protect war memorials. aim of the War Memorials Trust for some time. By The hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) clarifying this definition, we would not just be able to has previously raised this important issue, and we need tackle desecration, but also the problem of neglect. to be vigilant and take action to reverse the neglect that I appreciate that my Bill has no chance of becoming is the greatest threat to memorials. law in this Parliament, but I hope that a future Parliament War memorials do not have any dedicated legal will consider the whole issue of protection of war protection. When damage is caused through criminal memorials. In the meantime, I hope that sentencing acts or neglect, the common question is who is responsible guidelines can be revised. Also I am sure that a war for repair and restoration. In my constituency, thankfully, memorials all-party parliamentary group will be shortly Enfield council quickly responded by temporarily replacing formed, with a challenge for 2014 on the centenary of the plaques, and they will soon be fully restored. However, the outbreak of the first world war to have all memorials the law needs to reflect the impact of desecration. There properly registered. is, of course, the physical damage and the financial cost In 1949, the Southgate mayor said: to the community of cleaning away the graffiti, repairing “Time may dim our recollections of the heroic days of the war damage or replacing any stolen items such as bronze but will never obscure the gratitude we shall hold for those who plaques. Many memorials were erected in the aftermath fell. This memorial is living testimony to those of whom we in of the first world war and have since become a part of Southgate are proud. We shall not forget.” our heritage and our community. They are our connection This Bill says that we as a House and country shall not to the past. The desecrators not only cause damage and forget. steal property, but break the crucial link with past Question put and agreed to. generations who have provided the remembrance. Such a break can sometimes be irreparable. More fundamentally, Ordered, war memorials represent the values of our country. An That Mr. David Burrowes, Shona McIsaac, Robert attack on a war memorial represents an attack on our Key, Jim Sheridan, Dr. Andrew Murrison, Mr. Colin deeply held values, our freedoms and our democracy. Breed, Mr. Charles Walker, Mike Penning, Angela Who are those people carrying out these acts of Watkinson, Mr. Graham Stuart, John Mann and Michael desecration? Some incidents, like the widely reported Fabricant present the Bill. case of a Leeds student urinating on a war memorial, Mr. David Burrowes accordingly presented the Bill. are the result of reckless binge drinking. Then there are Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on the mindless acts of destruction where memorials are Friday 30 April, and to be printed (Bill 60). 321 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 322

Police Grant Report Mr. Hanson: I will return to the funding formula later because it is an important issue, and a number of representations have been made by different forces about 1.39 pm some of the inequities in the funding formula. We are currently considering the matter, and will continue to The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism do so in the future, but my hon. Friend will know that, (Mr. David Hanson): I beg to move, this year, West Yorkshire police saw an increase of That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2010-11 3.3 per cent.—£11.3 million—for the next financial (HC 278), which was laid before this House on 20 January, be year. Historically, West Yorkshire police funding has approved. increased 37 per cent. in real terms over the past 13 years. This debate takes place against a backdrop of record falls in crime and record levels of police numbers. One Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Why has thing that can be said about the Government, more the Home Office consistently failed, until recently—with than anything else, is that we have invested in police and the migration impact forum—properly to take into policing numbers, not just through neighbourhood policing, account the significant impact on crime and policing of protective services and collaboration programmes, but large-scale migration since May 2004 from eastern European in relation to all aspects of the police service. I am countries? Does the Minister agree that that has had a delighted, therefore, that the British crime survey and significant ramification on the number of police whom figures last week showed a marked reduction in crime people in Cambridgeshire, where my constituency is for 2008-09, compared with 2007-08. located, expect to see on the beat? Why is that the case? It is worth placing that on the record because the police do a magnificent job, as has been shown by the Mr. Hanson: As the hon. Gentleman will know, that fact that over the past year total recorded crime fell by is one of the issues on which we have received 5 per cent.; vehicle crime by 10 per cent.; violence representations, including from the chief constable of against the person by 6 per cent; robbery by 5 per cent.; his own force. However, I hope that when he reflects on sexual offences by 4 per cent.; robbery with a knife by Cambridgeshire police funding, he will be pleased that 2 per cent.; and firearm offences by 17 per cent. Challenges the Labour Government have delivered an extra 109 police remain, but I put it to the House that, whatever is said officers to his force in the past 13 years, that 33 per cent. in this debate, those figures are good, particularly given more resource is going in than did under the Tory that we are coming out of a recession. Normally, under Government, and that even this year, in these challenging such circumstances, crime would rise, but actually, over times, his force has £2.5 million more than it did last the past 12 months, in what have been—by any stretch year—and all that from a Labour Government! I hope of the imagination—challenging financial circumstances, that he recognises those facts when he talks to his local crime has fallen. police authority about the Government’s performance in those areas. That can be added to the overall drop in crime of 36 per cent. since 1997, which is a very positive thing. Mr. Jackson indicated dissent. The House will also know that the British crime survey last week showed that confidence in policing is now at Mr. Hanson: The hon. Gentleman is not happy? 50 per cent. and that the chance of being a victim of crime is the lowest since records began. That is the Mr. Jackson: My chief constable is not happy! backdrop to today’s settlement and discussion. Coupled with those falls in crime, last week I was able to announce Mr. Hanson: Those figures are facts. They relate historically high numbers of police officers and staff on to the funding given by the Labour Government to the streets. Figures published last week show that police Cambridgeshire police. The hon. Gentleman needs to officer strength remains at 142,688, which is an increase recognise that fact. But let us put that to one side. of nearly 17,000 officers over the past 13 years. Obviously there are variations, challenges and difficulties, Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) which no doubt will come out in the debate, but the (LD): Funding statistics and formulae are important, record numbers of police officers, and indeed police although most people are more worried about outcomes community support officers—more than 16,000—show than how we get there, but can the Minister assure us that today’s settlement is building on a history of strong that the population figures, whether or not they include settlements that have seen crime fall, policing numbers people on the electoral register, are up to date as the rise and the introduction of PCSOs. The levels of confidence basis of the formula? That has been a recurrent issue for in policing and the fact that a person’s chance of being a local government and other service funders in London. victim of crime is the lowest ever show that the Government Will he also comment on the fact that there is still some have done a good job to date. doubt about the veracity of the crime figures, which—if he is to be believed—are falling? Although that is to be Mr. Paul Truswell (Pudsey) (Lab): My right hon. welcomed, to have public confidence the figures ought Friend will be aware that the Government improved the to be arrived at in an entirely neutral way and separate funding formula for West Yorkshire police. Nevertheless, from the Government as far as possible. it is still £18 million adrift of the figure it would get were it fully funded. Will he and his colleagues consider how Mr. Hanson: The crime figures which I commented police authorities such as West Yorkshire can bridge on—not announced—10 days ago were announced by that gap, so that they can continue to enjoy record levels the Office for National Statistics, which is independent of police officers and the subsequent major impact on of the Government. Indeed, I only see the crime figures crime? as a matter of courtesy a few hours before they are 323 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 324 produced, so they are independent. I do not gerrymander know that, whatever our views on the funding formula, them. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about the the fact that we have set a minimum rise of 2.5 per cent. important population issues, but under any measure is helpful to many forces. It means that each police crime has fallen across England and Wales over the past authority in England and Wales is guaranteed an increase 13 years, including in London and key areas as a whole. of at least that level. In my view, that is a positive announcement. We are trying to strike what I would Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The Minister will describe as a sensible balance on the issues in economically know that police numbers in Essex have increased, and challenging times. he will probably have guessed that I will seek to claim credit for that. However, people out there know that the Indeed, I would be interested to hear from the hon. real reason is that the Government have increased funding Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) about to enable police numbers in Essex to increase, and I whether, in what I would obviously see as the unlikely thank him for that. However, will he use innovative event of a change of Government, he will commit surveillance and high-tech equipment to improve himself to the 2.5 per cent. increase that we have put in policing—for instance, vehicle automatic number plate place for next year, whether he will support that funding recognition systems? We need those to clamp down on for police community support officers, and whether he burglaries, which are a particular problem on Canvey will support the ring-fencing of that funding, because island, for instance. those are crucial matters that will form part of our debate between now and whenever my right hon. Friend Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the Prime Minister calls the general election. We want his support. He recognises, as I do, that there has been a to look at the funding formula review, and we will do so 30 per cent. real-terms increase in funding for Essex, shortly. I hope that we will be in a position to do that in that there will be a £5.2 million increase—2.9 per cent.—next the next 12 months. year and that there has been an historical fall in crime over the past five years of nearly 6 per cent. I fully There has been no change to rule 2 grants since the accept that there is always more that we can do, and the start of the current spending review, in 2008-09. Police automatic number plate recognition is a valuable tool—I authorities have complete flexibility on how best to use know from my constituency how it helps to identify that resource. potential vehicle crime and to reduce crime. However, it Specifically on the settlement, we have also put in relates to issues not only of vehicle crime, but of mobile place absolutely committed funding for neighbourhood burglary and people who cross borders to commit crimes. policing, as the foundation for local police in the I certainly, therefore, encourage and support its further 21st century. That is why, for 2010-11 we are maintaining use, for which we should all be grateful. and increasing the ring-fenced funding that helps to Let me turn to the nub of today’s debate. The police support those 16,000 police community support officers. revenue support grant, which was laid on 20 January, I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman make a confirmed the indicative figures, and we are implementing commitment to fund those 16,000 PCSOs next year, in the 2010-11 funding settlement as announced in December the unlikely event of a change of Government, or at 2007, which is good news for the police. Between 1997 least supporting me from the Opposition Benches for and 2010-11, we have increased the police service grant the good that the Government are doing on that. PCSOs by about £3.7 billion—a cash increase of 60 per cent. provide a valuable resource, delivering on the policing and a real-terms increase of almost 20 per cent. The pledge commitments and raising public confidence. figures that I gave to the hon. Member for Peterborough Neighbourhood policing is the key. That investment is (Mr. Jackson) can be replicated across the board in making a difference and contributing to the crime falls every police authority in England and Wales and represent that I mentioned. We will shortly produce a safe and a substantial increase in funding. They show that this confident neighbourhoods strategy, which will look at year total Government funding for the 2010-11 cycle in how we develop the policy still further. I look forward today’s report will be more than £9.7 billion—an overall to giving the House details of that, I hope within the increase of 2.7 per cent. on 2009-10. Some £8.5 billion next month. of that provision is for the police general formula grant, and there is also an additional £1.2 million in specific As well as the policing of local communities, which is grant funding, to which I will return later. the bedrock of our activity, we also need to look at We gave those commitments several years ago. In protective services and the collaboration programme, to fact, they were probably given by my right hon. Friend ensure that we drive up and develop minimum standards the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), who is across the board. We have made an additional £2.2 million with us today, as part of the three-year cycle of this available in the settlement today to help deliver regional comprehensive review. We kept those commitments and capability in tackling regional crime, which is a serious delivered on them in 2008 and 2009, and now in 2010-11. issue and one that we need to address. We are keen to We have also kept ring-fenced funding to a minimum, ensure that we aid the police in reducing crime and have so that we can allow forces the maximum flexibility in designed programmes accordingly. deciding how to allocate and spend their resources. The In today’s announcement, we have also committed to police grant deals with Home Office general police the basic command unit fund and ensured that forces grant for revenue expenditure. The amounts for individual receive the same allocation in 2010-11—a total of police authorities are set out in the papers before the £40 million—as previously. From my perspective, House today, and I hope that they will be generally public confidence is at the heart of our agenda—public welcomed. confidence on issues such as antisocial behaviour and We have set a minimum floor of 2.5 per cent. for the crimes that matter locally, which are best dealt with by grant provision for 2010-11. My hon. Friend the Member locally supported forces. That £40 million is extremely for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell), who raised this issue, will valuable. 325 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 326

[Mr. Hanson] police funding. However, there will also be debates and consideration about the capping action, decided in 2008-09, In the document before the House, we have also on Cheshire, Leicestershire and Warwickshire, in advance confirmed the capital spending for supported capital of the 2010-11 settlement, as a result of previous excessive expenditure for next year. Again, I say to the hon. increases set by those authorities. Cheshire and Gentleman and others that we have committed a total Leicestershire have accepted their caps, whereas of £220 million. That is money that we said we would Warwickshire will be debated as part of our discussions allocate previously—we have committed to it and continued later today.However, despite those difficulties and challenges to support it. That has meant some difficult and challenging locally, there are genuine funding increases today that decisions, but, by making that commitment today, we we should welcome. have been able to support that capital expenditure firmly, In summary, we have positive falls in crime, record which is good news for the police in dealing with the numbers of police and a commitment next year to a capital issues that they need to address. minimum of 2.5 per cent. for each force. That is good Almost finally, for Welsh police authorities, which news at a time of recession. We are seeking greater value are close to my heart as a Member of Parliament for money from police authorities generally, and there representing a Welsh constituency, we have set a minimum will be a drive next year to look at issues that we raised increase in the grant, in line with English authorities. in the White Paper and commented on yesterday, in We have again adjusted the Home Office police grant producing our high-level group report on value for for Welsh police authorities, to maintain consistency money. We need to drive better efficiency and value in with those in England. The additional support will total the system. We need to ensure that we reduce police £16 million this year and will help to maintain police overtime and look at better procurement and the better numbers and reduce crime. deployment of officers. However, the resource is there, I should also like to report to the House that we and this House can commit to it today. I hope that asked for, and received, representations in our consultation Members in all parts of the House will commit to it, on the settlement. However, I received only four sets of because this Government have a proud record on policing written representations about the settlement, from four and police numbers. I want that to continue next year, police authority areas. That is fewer than in previous and I commend the motion to the House. years and a little more than a quarter of the representations that were received last year. That indicates the level of 1.58 pm support not just in the House, but in the community, for Mr. David Ruffley (Bury St. Edmunds) (Con): The the proposals that I am putting before the House. one thing that we can agree on in this debate is that the Following those representations, we have laid the papers police of this country do a difficult and usually very before the House, which in my view show a good dangerous job. On behalf of the Opposition, I would settlement, which is something that we need to take into like to pay tribute to their service. They need the resources account. to discharge their duties to the public in upholding law The pre-Budget report of December 2009 is also and order, which is why this debate is so important. This crucial to our consideration today. It has enhanced our year’s settlement is the final part of the three-year immediate understanding of the future funding of the comprehensive spending review. Excluding additional police, by announcing, through my right hon. Friend grants for counter-terrorism and other specific grants, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that sufficient funding the police settlement will increase by 2.7 per cent. this will be made available to 2012-13 to enable police year. Including specific grants, total revenue funding authorities to maintain the current numbers of warranted will also increase by 2.7 per cent. police officers, as well as police community support It is worth flagging up a few issues that many outside officers and other staff exercising police powers. Again, this House, and not just police authorities, have with that is a commitment from this Government to real the distribution of the police grant. It is a complicated money, on the table, to fund real police officers out on calculation, based, as we know, on five separate components, the street, reducing crime still further. including the needs-based formula, or the “principal I do not wish to be too political—although we are in formula”; additional rule 1, which reduces grant provision interesting times—but that is a commitment on the for the South Wales police authority and redistributes it funding to date that was announced in the pre-Budget to other police authorities in Wales; and additional rule report. I hope that that commitment will be subject to 2. In the past, the Home Secretary distributed specific debate, and I look forward to receiving the hon. Gentleman’s grants such as the rural policing grant, the forensic support, because it sets the framework for the confidence grant and the initial police learning and development that police authorities can have in knowing that the programme grant. The Home Office decision to amalgamate record numbers of police that we have provided will those grants into a single pot, so that police authorities continue, should they wish them to. could have more control over how those funds were Next year we will also maximise the increase in the used, was welcome. The Home Office also distributes general grant, providing a further £2.5 million to ensure specific grants for police authorities. Finally, the police that all police authorities have received that minimum grant floors are applied. I will return to that issue of increase. Again, at a time of falling public spending and scaling later. challenges, which normally increase in a recession, that What we do know is that this year there are 20 police is a good indicator of the extra resources that are being authorities in total receiving the lowest increase of supplied, and that at a time of falling crime. 2.5 per cent., including Cheshire, Gloucestershire, My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Lincolnshire, Suffolk, Surrey and the Met. The biggest Communities and Local Government will speak later increase in the police grant is received by the West on the implications for local government spending of Midlands at 3.9 per cent. 327 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 328

Let me go to the heart of what I took to be the Mr. Hanson: Could we get down to specifics? The political thrust of the Minister’s speech. We are in a grant is before the House today. It increases funding by severe economic situation and it has added huge strain a minimum of 2.5 per cent. and overall by 2.7 per cent. to already tight police budgets. In written evidence If the hon. Gentleman were sitting on this Bench, what provided to the Home Affairs Committee for its report figure would he put on the grant increase over and on police service strength, the Association of Police above what we are proposing? Will he give a commitment Authorities today to do that? I do not think that he will, as his party “acknowledged the deteriorating state of public finances” is committed to cutting public spending. and the expected impact on police budgets. Similarly, a Mr. Ruffley: The shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer study undertaken by the Association of Chief Police has made it quite clear that we will make a decision Officers’ finance and resources business area found that when we write our next Budget. We are still waiting for several forces in England and Wales—this is the crucial two things. We are waiting for a Budget from this point that I would like the Minister to return to—were Government. Also, no CSR was put in place, even already using budget reserves to maintain front-line though it was open to the Government to do that. services. I want to get back to the promises that the Government There is increasing confusion about police officer are making about 2010-11. The Minister has given us all numbers and police strength, with evidence from police sorts of blandishments about how everything will be forces contradicting what the Minister is asking us to fine and everything will be maintained, but the evidence believe. In research for its report into police strength, that I have been reading out completely undermines the Home Affairs Committee—I am sad that the excellent everything that he has been saying. To make promises Chairman of that Committee, the right hon. Member about what will happen in 2010-11 is impossible; the for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), is not here to confirm evidence shows that it is not possible. I want to hear this—wrote to all police forces in England and Wales from the Minister why he believes that this settlement and asked them to provide information on their officer will maintain what he says it will maintain, because the and staff numbers; crucially, likely changes to the work evidence is quite to the contrary. force during the remainder of 2009-10 and 2010-11; and the plans that the forces are putting in place in relation Mr. Hanson: I will try again. If the hon. Gentleman to staffing levels next year. has the opportunity to increase the 2010-11 settlement The responses were very interesting. They were clear. over and above the 2.5 per cent. to the 2.7 per cent. Just four forces anticipated maintaining staff and officer average, will he do that? If he were in my position now, levels. Some forces had already begun to reduce officer or if he were in my position in eight or nine weeks, numbers and many have plans to do so. To provide one would he increase next year’s money? We have already or two examples, Humberside police force said that it announced today the funding that the grant will provide. was planning to cut 300 officer posts. Cumbria said that there are Mr. Ruffley: I think that the shadow Chancellor has “cuts likely of staff and officers”. made the position entirely clear, and we will present a Derbyshire said that “police staff cuts” will be likely, Budget should we be in a position to do so, but I still do and Durham is planning a not think that the Minister has explained why all these authorities that we have talked about—including “vacancy freeze on staff and officer posts”. Humberside, Cumbria, Derbyshire—are saying that there Kent said that it had will be a cut in police strength. It flies in the face of “significant planned police staff reductions for 2009-11 to meet what the Minister has been promising. funding savings”. Out of 43 forces, only four said that they anticipated Ms Buck: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? maintaining staffing levels. Mr. Ruffley: In a minute. Mr. Stewart Jackson: Are we seeing a pattern here in I want to test further what the Government are terms of grand promises prior to a general election that saying will happen in 2010-11 on the basis of the grant are not delivered? Does my hon. Friend remember that settlement. I was troubled by what the Chancellor said before the 2005 general election the Government promised in his statement on the pre-Budget report, because it 24,000 new community support officers? In fact it delivered does not make sense to a lot of those in the police just 16,000, 8,000 short, a clear broken promise in their service. He said: manifesto. “I am today able to offer...sufficient funding to maintain the number of police and community support officers. That means Mr. Ruffley: My hon. Friend is exactly right. that I can confirm not just that we will increase spending as planned next year on hospitals, schools and policing, but we can pledge that spending on these crucial front-line services will Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) continue to rise over and above inflation after 2010-11”.—[Official (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Report, 9 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 370-1.] The evidence from the Home Affairs Committee Mr. Ruffley: I will in a minute. clearly shows that police forces around the country At this stage of the Parliament, words are quite have, or are preparing to, cut the number of staff and cheap. Promises are quite cheap, but the evidence that officers. I am amazed that the Minister does not have an the Home Affairs Committee has given and that we all answer to that. Can he please tell us how this Government hear about is there for the Minister to confront and are planning on, as he claims, guaranteeing police officer explain. numbers when we do not have any details on police 329 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 330

[Mr. Ruffley] Mr. Hanson: Yes. budgets after 2011? Crucially, can he tell us how he Mr. Ruffley: He may not have the chance for it to defines front-line policing services, because those were become part of his policy in a few weeks’ time, so that the words that slipped into the Chancellor’s pre-Budget might be why he is so confident in making that assertion. report? If the Minister is defending that, what is the Unfortunately, the Government’s decision not to hold a definition of front-line policing services? It cannot mean comprehensive spending review that would detail proposed police strength because police authorities have already expenditure over a three-year period underscores that told the Home Affairs Committee that those numbers fact that they have no confidence in their rather woolly are being cut and will be cut. It is a total mystery to me guarantees made in the pre-Budget report and repeated what protecting front-line policing services means in by the Minister today. that context. Surely one of the key parts of policing—ensuring Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): Derbyshire police that we have their presence on the street—involves the have far more police officers and PCSOs than when I amount of time officers spend on patrol. It would be was elected in 1997, but we have continually argued that fair to say that the figures on the amount of time police we should move more quickly towards where Derbyshire spend on the beat have fallen under this Administration. police should be compared with other authorities. They According to the Government’s own latest figures, the cannot do it too quickly because other authorities’ amount of time a patrol officer spends on patrol has budgets would be cut—that is the floors and ceilings fallen from 19.1 per cent. in 2004-05 to an even lower argument. Is the Conservative party able to give me an 17.8 per cent. in 2007-08. Jan Berry, the Government’s assurance now that, if it were in power, Derbyshire police bureaucracy tsar, when asked whether officers would immediately go to its right level, without cutting were spending more time on patrol now than two years other police services? ago said: “If you talk to police officers they would say it has remained Mr. Ruffley: I will come on to the point about floors the same or got slightly worse”, later, so perhaps the hon. Lady will intervene again and and she went on to point out, in what I take to be a real I will answer her then, if she will forgive me. indictment, that only one of the 33 proposals to reduce Ms Buck: The hon. Gentleman did not mention in his bureaucracy in the final Flanagan review of February list the largest police authority—that of London. What 2008, had been implemented. advice is he giving to his friend, the Mayor of London, whose draft budget includes a provision for a cut of Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I apologise for 455 police officers? If we take into account the four missing the beginning of the hon. Gentleman’s speech budgets for which the Mayor will have been responsible, and, of course, the Minister’s. I was attending another it works out at a net reduction in police officers by just engagement, as I shall explain later if I can catch over 100, I believe. This is taking place at a time when Mr. Deputy Speaker’s eye. much is being made about the freezing of precept, so Good practice is an issue raised in a number of Select how does the hon. Gentleman advise the Mayor to Committee reports. If there is good practice in one proceed? area, it is important to ensure that it is translated into Mr. Ruffley: Let us first make it clear and put on the other areas. Should we look to organisations such as the record what the Minister is saying about defending National Policing Improvement Agency to ensure that police officer numbers. As I say, he talks about protecting this kind of efficiency is delivered to the Police Service, front-line policing services, so will the Minister give us a as in the end, that will also save a great deal of taxpayers’ definition of that when he concludes the debate? money? The plot thickens, because two newspapers today report that the Association of Chief Police Officers has Mr. Ruffley: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. drawn up proposals to cut 28,000 officers and replace We had a discussion about one bit of good practice—the them with civilian staff. Part of the leaked report, as four pilots for lighter and more nimble recording practice. reported this morning, says: I remember that when we discussed it in July, I asked the right hon. Gentleman how many forces had adopted “As a result of a variety of approaches to modernisation, in the case of the most mixed forces there are over 50 per cent. staff. If this pilot of slimline recording, which was happening in all forces were to mirror that position… this would result in a the west midlands, Staffordshire, Surrey and Leicestershire, more diverse workforce but with approximately 28,000 fewer but he did not know. He said that I had asked a good officers and with savings in the region of £400 million”. question, but I thought it notable that he, the Chairman Will the Minister confirm that? Has he commissioned of the Home Affairs Committee, was unaware of how that work? Is he aware of it? far this practice had been rolled out and adopted. I am sure that the Minister would agree that there is a need Mr. Hanson: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that that for some direction from the centre on certain issues. document has no locus for the Government and it has This provides one tangible example of bureaucracy not been commissioned by Government Ministers or reduction that has not been driven forward and has not the Home Office, and it does not have the support of delivered the gains that it could have. As the shadow ACPO. It is an explanatory document presenting options Home Secretary has said, we intend to make this one of that have not been endorsed and are not being endorsed our priorities. either by ACPO or the Government. Making better use of resources is at the heart of the Mr. Ruffley: May I take it that the Minister does not grant settlement before us. All police authorities understand endorse that report, that he refutes it and that it will not that they need to get more from less. Police authorities be part of his policy? should be encouraged to find savings in back office and 331 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 332 procurement, and release them for use on the front line. right, we did not carry out the CSR, but we will give We all agree on that. Why, however, has the Minister some indication”—an update on the statement given not used the powers in the Policing and Crime Act 2009, two years ago by his right hon. Friend the Member for which gave the Home Secretary powers to mandate Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty)—“of the stage that we collaboration on areas of procurement—both information have reached in regard to the future of floors and the technology and non-IT procurement—that could yield full application of the police funding formula.” efficiency savings? Powers to mandate have been available I look forward to the Minister’s response. Given that for a few months now, so can the Minister tell us he has been specific about some of what will allegedly whether he is contemplating use of any of these mandated happen to police strength in 2010-11, I think it important powers to squeeze more efficiencies out of the system? for him to be a bit more specific about the future of the If not, why not? The Minister has cheerfully spoken floors that constitute the basis of the document before us. about the prospects of another Labour Government and how 2010-11 will be all sweetness and light, but if Judy Mallaber: The hon. Gentleman invited me earlier he is going to make promises about spending, will he tell to ask my question again when he reached this point in us what he intends about mandation and squeezing his speech. I am sure my constituents would be very more bang for the buck? interested to know how long it would take his party—if On the police grant formula, I have received many it unfortunately came to office—to restore the level of representations recently regarding the operation of police the grant funding formula that has been agreed, whether grant floors and I would like to raise one or two of them that could be done only at the expense of either other with the Minister. As written evidence to the Home police services or some other budget elsewhere, and Affairs Select Committee has highlighted, because of which budget might be affected. the operation of scaling and floors, forces such as Hampshire receive £1.5 million less than they should Mr. Ruffley: I think the hon. Lady is putting her under the principal needs formula. Similarly, I have question to the wrong person. I put the same question received extensive representations from Derbyshire police to the Minister when I asked him whether certain authority and constabulary, as due to the cost of providing factors would be taken into account, as Sir Ronnie floor protection within the funding formula, they lose Flanagan had suggested, to prevent there being significant out to the tune of £5 million a year. I could cite many losers. The Minister should also tell us what stage he other examples and I am sure that hon. Members from has reached in the review of the regime that he says he is all parties could provide their own for me and the conducting. The last statement that said anything was Minister. given to us two years ago, and it would be useful to have some specificity. I hope that when he has answered that We welcomed the removal of the ceiling that the then question, the hon. Lady will be able to ask her own Minister with responsibility for crime and policing question again. announced in 2008. In that debate, the Minister said that The fire and rescue authorities’ grant floors have “we were able this year at least to announce a settlement that had been lowered for 2010-11. Has the Minister examined no ceiling. Some progress has therefore been made towards the the impact that those significant future changes have formula and I hope that, in the coming years, it will continue, if had on the finances of different authorities, and does he not accelerate somewhat.”—[Official Report, 4 February 2008; think we can draw any lessons from them? He is the Vol. 471, c. 673.] Minister in charge, and he is doing the technical work. Will the present Minister be more precise and give us an We should like to hear about it. update from that statement of two years ago? This country is in dire financial straits. Let us not It is quite clear that we need to move towards applying forget that this Government, not any other Government, the needs-based formula more purely. There is a need are responsible for the mess that we are in. We know for that to happen, and I think that all Members will see why, and the British people know why.Given the additional the sense of that. Sir Ronnie Flanagan, in his final pressures from the economic collapse over which the report into the future of policing—it was essentially Government have presided and which the country is about bureaucracy, but he understood how resourcing experiencing, police authorities—as they have told the impacted on that—said of grant floors that Home Affairs Committee—already face projected cuts, “if we are to get the best performance return for our investment and are now planning for cuts in police strength. Can over the lean times ahead, we must start to deal with these the Minister please tell us why that is, and why it anomalies.” conflicts so obviously with the rosy picture of the grant He went on to suggest: settlement that he has painted here today? The two “I think it prudent that, from that point on, there should be a simply cannot be squared. staged relaxation of the ‘floors and ceilings’— There is also concern about funding formula changes. well, the ceilings bit has been dealt with— I think it incumbent on the Minister, in a debate on “which dampen changes in allocations, possibly combined with police grant, to tell us exactly what stage, in technical special consideration for those few Forces which would face the terms, the review of police funding arrangements has most significant reductions in funding.” reached in the Home Office. I think that not only the The Home Affairs Committee confirmed that by saying: House but the country deserves an answer to those two “we support Sir Ronnie Flanagan’s recommendation for full questions. application of the police funding formula at the next Spending Review.” We did not get the next spending review, because the 2.24 pm Government funked that rather significant policy and Mr. Tony McNulty (Harrow, East) (Lab): It is important political challenge. Today I give the Minister an opportunity for us to take the police, and police finance, extremely to atone for the Government’s sins, and to say “All seriously. I do not think that that has happened of late, 333 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 334

[Mr. Tony McNulty] Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman—who, if I may say so, was certainly on the Opposition Benches. I said two years a very good Minister—for mentioning Surrey. As he ago—the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) will know, Surrey taxpayers contribute up to 50 per quoted me without mentioning me—that I believed that cent. of policing costs. That is a terribly high percentage, the time had come for a proper and substantial review and capping caused those taxpayers a great deal of of the way in which we funded our police. If we are difficulty.Unless I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman, serious about localism—which I do not think many he seemed to be showing some sympathy for Surrey. I Members are, on either side of the House—we have, in only hope that his right hon. Friend the Minister will accept the funding of the police, the perfect model of what words from him that he might not accept from me. might be called transactional politics. Mr. McNulty: Of course the hon. Gentleman may Even as Police Minister I opposed the capping of say what he said about what I was like as a Minister. police authorities—not local government—and I still do, because it offends against the localism to which I I am talking about where we need to go, rather than have referred. We saw that in London for the four years about the existing circumstances. To be fair to myself—if during which Ken Livingstone said, very clearly, “I will that is possible—I think that I said much of this from put x per cent. on your per cent. precept, and this is the Dispatch Box during the debate that was mentioned what you will get for it in the end. You will get a team of earlier. I believe that there needs to be a collective will six—one sergeant, two constables and three police and consensus. community support officers—in every ward in London.” As I said earlier, there needs to be some seriousness in I shall say more about London later. People bought the debate about police grant and resources, and all the that, and it was delivered. We thought that it was issues that surround that subject, if we are to do right sacrosanct. I shall say more about that as well. by the public. Let me give an example that is relevant to I take on board what the hon. Member for Bury resources. Back in 2005 we decided, rightly, that there St. Edmunds said about the formula, and I welcome were serious problems with the data relating to violent what my right hon. Friend the Minister has done in that crime. We consulted widely on that, and a cross-party regard, but in my opinion it is time for a fundamental panel looked at the detail and arrived at some conclusions. rethink—locally based—of the funding of police forces. The upshot was, in essence, that it was thought that the As I think I said from the Dispatch Box when I was a way in which violent crime data are assessed and collected Minister, it cannot be right for the amount offered should be changed so that, instead of having just the locally to the overall resource base of police forces to standard police definitions, the victim’s own thoughts range from—I hope the House will forgive me for using on the level of the violence of the crime were at least old figures—some 18 per cent. in Northumbria to well taken into account. We therefore changed those definitions, over 55 per cent. in Surrey when the two areas are which I think was rather brave, although we could providing essentially the same service. It cannot be right perhaps have gone further. that the precept at that time—again, I hope the House As a result, all subsequent data on violent crime are will forgive me for not using up-to-date figures—ranged substantively different, and that, of course, has implications from about £80 to the best part of £250 or £260 per for the measurement of the performance of police head, or even more. Of course policing in Surrey is forces. It is, therefore, frankly not on for the boss of the different from policing in Northumbria—if it were not, hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds—the hon. Member there would be a national police force—but such local for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling)—to compare the vagaries should not obstruct the provision of a more new violent crime figures with the old ones, and to do so universal and fairer system that is much more locally in such a distorted and disingenuous fashion. I was based in terms of contribution. I mean that in an going to say “mendacious”, but I suspect that that word entirely non-partisan sense. is on the list of non-parliamentary language. This airbrushing of statistics does the hon. Gentleman and Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire) (Lab): My right his party no credit, and, more importantly, it serves to hon. Friend is making an adult speech on a difficult distract from the reality the Government were trying to subject. Will he bring within his compass the issues of get through to by changing the statistics in the first how the precept is determined and the role of capping? place. One worry is that when a local community is consulted widely on what would seem an appropriate precept Judy Mallaber: Is my right hon. Friend aware that which has gained a good deal of assent, as has happened our chief constable in Derbyshire has in the past had to in Derbyshire, the Government nevertheless intervene disavow newsletters put out by the Conservative party, and impose an artificial cap on the precept that may be because they included misleading crime statistics? Does levied. Would it not be reasonable to recognise some my right hon. Friend also share my concern that the freedom in that respect as well? police feel that they are forced into such a position? They should not be put in such positions, because Mr. McNulty: I am sorry that I did not make myself nobody should play around with crime statistics. Indeed, clear to my hon. Friend. As I may have said more gently our chief constable has begged for games not be played when I was Police Minister but will say more vocally with statistics. now, I do not consider that capping figures at all, or should figure, in my little purview or compass. We are Mr. McNulty: That is absolutely and entirely right, talking about a unique relationship: a potentially and it is to the Conservatives’ shame that they have transactional relationship. To say “The police authority played around with the statistics. It is not enough for will do x with y increase in, for instance, capital or the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell to say, as he did police numbers, and it will cost you, the public, y” is on the “Today” programme this morning: pure transactionalism, and need not involve capping. “There are certainly changes in the reporting methods”. 335 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 336

Well, I am not sure whether I should congratulate him Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): I on spotting that, because the changes have been quite congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on making such significant. He continued by saying that sensible arguments about formula funding, but he talked “the point is that they are the only comparators available.” about the needs-based formula and the truth is that that That is nonsense. Comparing the previous figures with formula is still too crude. I hope that he will at least go the current figures is like comparing apples with oranges. along with me on that. In Northamptonshire, we are If the upshot of the changes was that we had somehow, simply not getting the money that the needs-based through sleight of hand, hidden the extent of violent formula suggests we need. crime, I could understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but violent crime rose by 35 per cent. because of the Mr. McNulty: I accept that, and the hon. Gentleman adjustments, as—it is to be hoped—we were now measuring is, in a different way, putting the point about floors and it in a far more accurate and victim-centred way. The ceilings again. However, considerable progress has been Government, and all political parties, should be given made over the past 10 to 13 years in the allocation of great credit when they use such data in public forums. resources and in trying to reflect the needs of local areas. I think we should go further on that, of course, Mr. Stewart Jackson: I was just beginning to warm to and we could, and should, do that on a cross-party the right hon. Gentleman in his role as bipartisan basis in future. statesman speaking for all of us when, in the past few Whatever the difficulties in terms of police authorities, minutes, he started to become over-partisan. To revert the Opposition are in a state of confusion about the to the bipartisan tone, does he agree that the floors and notion of having elected police commissioners. If that ceilings mechanism is a very blunt instrument that fails were in place now, we would be in considerable difficulty, to take into account—I am sure he will concede that it because, effectively, the person whom the hon. Member failed to do so when he was Police Minister, as well as for Epsom and Ewell has ordained as the role model for now—specific issues such as population change, the elected police commissioners has just walked off the recording of population numbers and, particularly in pitch. The Mayor of London has just said, “I don’t like Cambridgeshire, tourism? We need to go back to square this any more. It is too tough. I cannot be bothered one in reviewing the funding formula, because not all of being chair of the Metropolitan Police Authority.” He the 40-odd force areas can possibly be the same in key said in his manifesto, no less—[Interruption.] I would aspects such as urban population and rurality. I invite like Members to listen to this, and I apologise for being him to conclude that this Government have not looked metro-centric, but that is just the way I am. [Interruption.] at that pressing issue with the appropriate alacrity. I said “metro-centric”, not “metro” something else. In his manifesto, the future Mayor said: Mr. McNulty: On the first part of that intervention, “It is important for the Mayor to take a public lead, so I will the hon. Gentleman misses the point entirely. I am not chair the Metropolitan Police Authority. I will take personal trying to be partisan. As I have said, the criteria for the responsibility. No offence will be too trivial to demand my figures were determined by a cross-party panel, and we attention. No challenge will be so big that I shrug my shoulders deliberately changed the entire definition of violent and pass the buck.” crime. Given that there was broad agreement on that, it What has he done just last week, however? He has is incumbent upon all of us to use the new figures shrugged his shoulders, passed the buck, and said to appropriately and not to compare them with the previous himself, “I know what I’ll do; as £140,000 is not enough, figures—and nor, frankly, to shroud-wave and scaremonger I will write another column for The Daily Telegraph for to the public in the disgraceful way that the hon. Member £250,000.” He can afford the time to do that, therefore. for Epsom and Ewell has done. In the same week that he gave up the chairmanship of The other points that the hon. Member for Peterborough the MPA, he also said, “Think green, vote blue” and “I (Mr. Jackson) made were precisely the points that I was can’t be bothered with the London waste authority making. When I was Police Minister, I clearly did not either.” The chairmanship of that is in the Mayor’s gift, succeed in everything I did. If I had, the formula would but he cannot be bothered to do that either. not be quite as it currently is and more of the contribution The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell needs to would be local. Although, of course, we will never reach think about this idea of having elected police commissioners. the stage when the entire police budget comes from It is terribly badly thought through, and he has managed local sources, because of the transactional nature of to do something I could not do in two and a half years policing and police authorities, we have to move to a in ministerial office: unite the police world against him. system beyond the current formula. The idea must be wrong in some aspects, therefore. I The hon. Gentleman is also wrong on another point; fully accept and concede that when I was a Home Office the needs-based formula we have is far more responsive Minister, we discussed these issues and agreed that there to the factors he mentioned than the system prior to was something lacking in terms of accountability, but 1997. I agree, however, with his broader point about the elected police commissioners are not the way to address Government in general not responding to changes on that. That is a mad idea. the ground as quickly as they might—and that will not I have said in a London context that there must be change if, heaven forbid, the colour of the Government some way in which local councils can more readily hold changes—and about how that links in with various to account their borough commander for local policing, formulae allocations not being as they should be. That and that that is not captured through the MPA structures. is in part because the creaky old Whitehall machinery is That issue is complicated in London because the Met not responsive enough to the massive and almost instant does so much nationally as well. We were also told by changes that are happening in Peterborough and elsewhere; the Mayor that he would spend less on press officers changes that used to take five or 10 years to happen and redirect more resources to front-line policing. How fully now happen in three or six months. many fewer press officers are there now than when 337 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 338

[Mr. McNulty] roll-out of safer neighbourhood policing and its police are under the excellent leadership of Chief-Superintendent Mr. Johnson came into office? What is the difference Dal Babu, who is doing a very good job. between his quota of press officers and Ken Livingstone’s? None; the number has not changed at all. Someone who Mr. Hanson: I am interested in how these “facts” are does the counting right might be able to say that coming about, given that we are providing an extra Mr. Johnson has saved 0.5 of a press officer post and £49.4 million to London next year. that is it. We were told in fluid style during the campaign that he would cut the number of press officers and that Mr. McNulty: Because Boris Johnson is not; because that would fund four new rape crisis centres, which, as crucially, Ken clearly said to the electorate during his the police and everybody fully accept, are needed. Have four years, “I am increasing the police precept for they happened? No. We have one such centre—some London by x and here is what you are going to get for it might say that we have one and a half, but barely in terms of safer neighbourhood teams.” Boris has said so—and by the end of his term two will be completed. to people—again this is typical flim-flam—that he is Promises that were made barely two years ago have not going to freeze the GLA precept, but he has told been delivered, to the consequence of London. In this them nothing about the consequences of that, especially context, the only new money—additional money—that for the Metropolitan police. My right hon. Friend rightly London will get this year is the 2.7 per cent. for the next points out that the only moneys that Harrow and two years that the Minister announced among other elsewhere in London are getting that are new in any things today. way, shape or form are coming from central Government and the settlement that we are discussing Ms Buck: Does my right hon. Friend also recall the today, which the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds so pledges made about the young Londoners fund, the blithely dismisses in the same way as he done for the youth charity and the colleges and training for young past three and a half years—it could have been the same people that were supposed to be set up as part of the speech. drive to tackle gang violence and youth crime? Can he This matters, especially in respect of capital, because shed any light on what has happened to any of those my right hon. Friend is announcing significant millions commitments over the past two years? more in capital for London. Boris intimated, at least Mr. McNulty: We could look and shed as much light when he was in campaign mode, that the new police as we want, but we would find that the answer is station that Harrow needs, as opposed to what it has in nothing, even if we throw in the Mayor’s fund and all south Harrow, will be built. That proposal has been sorts of things. The crucial thing given London’s unique scrapped. Any notion of significant growth in the capital structures—the unique structures that the police authority spend for London has been scrapped, and that matters introduced in London and that Mr. Johnson took over throughout London, because if the custody suites are two years ago—is that we were told that London was not in the right place, more policemen and women are the crucible. Someone who wanted to see how a future driving around London looking for somewhere to put Conservative Government would work in this country the people that they have in the back of their cars. It was told to look to London. People in London are matters, in terms of rolling out safer neighbourhood doing so, which is why, irrespective of whether the teams properly, that they have a base out in the communities, count is done on Thursday night or Friday night, rather than in Fort Apache style police stations. Conservative Members might wish to look with interest I really fear a mix involving playing politics on the at how some of the London results go. data—shame on the hon. Member for Epsom and Policing is far too important for what the Mayor is Ewell, who is at it yet again. As I said the last time I was doing. There are to be 455 fewer police officers over the on my feet in this House, I would not get a route map to next three years, despite his promise that there would be the Home Office if I were him, because I do not think more and that tackling crime was to be central to all he is going to end up there, even in the stark, worrying that he does. He promised that he would spend more on times that would arrive if the Conservative party got the police, but for the first time since the inception of into power. This matters because when someone plays the Greater London authority, this year and next year politics with police resources and policing policy, they the police budget will decrease. It would decrease by play politics with people’s lives in a way that is unforgivable. significantly more if it were not for the generosity of the It is easy to get on a soap box and scare people. I say Minister. The only two times that there have been cuts very clearly that Harrow is one of the safest boroughs in in the level of council tax for police services since the London, not least because of the investment that has beginning of the GLA are the two years of Boris been made during the past 10 to 13 years and because of Johnson, and that is not good enough. He also said, as what Ken Livingstone did as Mayor on rolling out safer part of his anti-bureaucratic sway, that the Metropolitan neighbourhood teams. I want it to stay that way. Police Service was fat on reserves and that he would My biggest fear is that through Boris Johnson’s rank strip out the reserves to the bare minimum and spend incompetence, the Metropolitan police will, because the money on front-line policing or in other ways—I such a large budget is involved, have to start to make believe he cited 26,000 hand-held scanners in his manifesto. cuts by picking into either the specialist squads to However, the MPS reserves, which are preciously needed tackle fraud, rape and a series of other very important given the way he is starving them, have increased, rather pan-London issues or the safer neighbourhood teams. than otherwise. Again, that is to his shame. Why does If the lasting legacy of Boris Johnson’s mayoralty is the that matter? It matters because in each of London’s unpicking of the settlement on safer neighbourhood 32 boroughs policing is central to the welfare and teams throughout London, that would be to his shame. security of each of our local communities. Harrow is a We have made significant progress on policing in London, relatively safe borough; there has been an excellent and nationwide. For that to continue, the hon. Member 339 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 340 for Bury St. Edmunds needs to get off the soap box and about what cuts are to come are already having an join a cross-party initiative to put policing at the centre effect, in that police forces are freezing and postponing of what our politics—rather than our partisan politics— recruitment. As I have said, numbers are already falling is about. in six out of 10 forces. Such cuts, should they snowball and continue in the 2.47 pm next year or two, will be a tragedy. The Association of Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): As we have heard, Police Authorities said of this grant: this is the third year of a three-year settlement and, as “The provision of effective adequately resourced policing is such, it holds no surprises. The Government deserve one of the Government’s primary responsibilities in a developed congratulating on the introduction of the three-year civil society.” process, which applies across all sorts of areas, not just In the past few years, such provision has been used to to policing. It makes budgeting for local authorities, very good effect in the redevelopment of neighbourhood schools, hospitals and all sorts of organisations far policing, or beat policing as it used to be called. In the more effective than the old 12-month, short-termism 1980s and 1990s, the Conservatives in government slashed that meant that no effective planning could be done. It police numbers, and one of their defences was that beat has been a step forward. police were old-fashioned and out of date, that they did Given that this is the third year of the settlement and not work, that they were ineffective, that they did not there are no surprises, much of what we said in the stop crime and that they did not catch criminals—so it debates on the police grant report last year and the year did not matter that police numbers were being hit so before still stands; having looked back on those two drastically. debates, it appears to me that we said the same thing At the very first, when this new Labour Administration almost word for word. Most of it does not need repeating, came in in 1997, they deployed the same argument for a but some of it does. This three-year settlement was the brief period. They quickly came round to accept, however, tightest for a decade, but it was still quite reasonable. that neighbourhood policing is one of the most effective The great fear now is about what will happen for the forms of policing. Of course, we have the headline next three year period—2011 to 2014. The pre-Budget policing issues, such as terrorism, serious crime, bank report estimated a 0.8 per cent. fall in funding for the robberies and so on, but, as the chief constable of police from 2011 to 2014, but that is entirely unbelievable. Derbyshire—the one who has retired, not the one who Sir Hugh Orde, the president of the Association of is in office now—said some years ago, when he looked Chief Police Officers, has said: at the figures every year, of all the issues and complaints “I can confidently predict cuts in police budgets of 10 to 20 per that people in Derbyshire raised, serious crime accounted cent. over the next few years.” for only a tiny percentage of them. In their day-to-day That is probably a much more realistic figure. Interestingly, lives, people were complaining about, fearful and being two university vice-chancellors from my region said at a bothered by the issues that are relatively low level— meeting in this place last night that they had been told vandalism, antisocial behaviour, car theft, burglaries by contacts in the Treasury to expect similar cuts in and local drug dealing—when compared with issues their university budgets. The pre-Budget report estimates such as terrorism. a 0.8 per cent. cut in the next three years, whereas Sir Hugh Orde much more realistically estimates a cut of between 10 and 20 per cent. Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He will know that the settlement before the Such a cut will occur at a time when the police House gives an increase of £259 million to police forces numbers are starting to fall. Figures published this for 2010-11 over that in 2009-10. To help frame the week showed that in six out of 10 police forces numbers, debate, will he tell me how much more than that £259 million which had reached a record high, were starting to drift the Liberal Democrats believe we should give to police downwards; ACPO notes that many forces are already forces next year? freezing posts in anticipation of what is to come next year and in subsequent years. Today’s edition of The Independent contained a report on precisely this in Paul Holmes: The Liberal Democrats have clearly which it said that it has said that we would divert money by abandoning particular Government programmes—identity cards have “learnt that about 2,000 would-be officers were recruited by the Metropolitan Police during…January 2009 and told that they been a long-standing option. At one time, based on the would start their training in spring last year. original grandiose costings for ID cards, that would Now, despite passing exams and interviews, the successful have paid for up to 10,000 extra police. Now the figure candidates have received letters informing them that they will not is about 3,000. That answer has been given and published be offered a start date until 2011 at the earliest—almost two years before. later than they were led to believe.” After a short interim period back in 1997, the That is happening across England and Wales. Government accepted that neighbourhood policing was For example, in Gloucestershire nearly 100 candidates effective and one of the No. 1 issues that the population who were recruited have been told that it has been of this country is concerned about—it still is to this day. deferred until 2011, possibly later. Similarly, 240 candidates The expansion of neighbourhood policing beat teams for the West Midlands police have gone through all the has been very effective. We should remember, however, stages of the recruitment process only to be told recently that some of the glowing headlines that Ministers often that their recruitment has been deferred. Cleveland tell us about are not the same all over the country. We police had 102 successful recruits treated in exactly the have heard about the situation in London where, because same way, and Cumbria had 59 so treated. That same of the combination of a London system that can raise practice has also happened in Greater Manchester and the police precept without its being capped by the Hampshire—it is happening across the country. Fears Government and can put that money into the police 341 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 342

[Paul Holmes] the neighbourhood police fund—the fund that supports the 14,000 PCSOs—or whether they would un-ring-fence force along with the receipt of money from the it? I meant to try to ask the hon. Member for Bury Government—this is a situation that we often hear St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) that—I believe that the boasted about—every local authority ward will have a Conservative line is that they will un-ring-fence that neighbourhood team of six, made up of a combination money, with all that means for neighbourhood policing. of officers and police community support officers. That Have the Liberal Democrats come to a settled view on is very effective—I see it, living in London as I do for that yet? three or three and a half days a week when Parliament is in Session. However, that is not true in the bulk of the Paul Holmes: We would have to ask our gurus, such as country. my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable), Many hon. Members would make that point. For about that specific point. In the long-term, following example, my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle exactly the theme that the right hon. Member for Harrow, (Mark Hunter) has long campaigned on the fact that East (Mr. McNulty) was talking about earlier, we would his area, Stockport, and Greater Manchester in general look to transfer most of the control and funding of and cannot remotely approach the levels of neighbourhood fundraising through local precepts for policing to local policing that we see in the London wards. My hon. communities. It would be their decision, along with Friend the Member for Bristol, West (Stephen Williams) duly elected police authorities, what to do with that, has long campaigned on the fact that Bristol, compared how to do that and what the priorities were. As was with other comparable cities, has one of the lowest correctly pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman ratios of police officers for neighbourhood policing and earlier, the policing requirements in an area of inner for all kinds of policing. There are huge disparities. London can be very different from those in a rural area, Exactly the same is true of Chesterfield and Derbyshire— a shire area, a small town such as Chesterfield and those aspirations of six officers dedicated to a team for so on. each local government ward are a pipe dream in many If the special grant funded allocations were to be parts of the country. If that is the situation that we have withdrawn in years to come, we would see a dramatic reached at the peak of success and investment, what is drop in police numbers, even though core funding was, going to happen as things start to get worse? on the face of it, being maintained. As the chief constable Only two weeks ago, I was talking to the beat team in of Manchester has pointed out, one cannot rely, as an area called Loundsley Green in my constituency. people sometimes suggest, on special constables. They One of the police officers had been assigned to such do a fantastic job—I have been out many times with things as the police response cars for 17 years and had special constables in Chesterfield—but, as the chief now switched to beat policing and neighbourhood policing. constable of Manchester pointed out, they are volunteers. He said that it was by far the most successful and Special constables cannot be ordered to be on duty on a rewarding part of police work in which he had ever certain day or evening at a certain time. They can be taken part. Instead of rushing to one emergency and asked or persuaded and both they and their goodwill spending as little time as possible there before rushing can be relied on, but they cannot be ordered. We cannot off in the car to the next and then to the next, he was guarantee policing on that basis. They are a fantastic able to get to grips with local issues and to follow up supplement to what the police do and what they provide, local miscreants. He was able to get to know them, their but they are no alternative and they are certainly not a parents and the people involved and to follow their free, cheap and easy alternative. We must consider how cases up effectively over a period of time. He could we will maintain numbers in the future. really feel that he was making a huge difference to One of the alarming factors underneath what looks policing, community safety and community consciousness like a relatively rosy picture is the fact that police in that area. It would be a great shame to see that numbers in forces around the country have been maintained undermined in years to come, but that is the danger. through the use of dwindling reserves. That has certainly If police numbers are at a high and are just starting to been true in Derbyshire. Derbyshire has features of its fall from that high, is there a danger that they could own that have been mentioned and to which I shall start to plummet very quickly? The chief constable of return, but over the past few years it has considerably Bedfordshire has pointed out that police numbers depend run down its reserves in order to maintain and expand not so much on the core police grant, for which we get police numbers because of the lack of appropriate funding for the three-year rolling cycle that we are funding from central Government and because of the discussing today, but on special grant funded allocations. threat of council tax capping, which has stopped it That is the case for PCSOs, in general, but it also applies using that option to fund police numbers. However, to all sorts of policing. reserves can only be used for so long before they have gone. Quite a number of police forces tell us that they The special grant funded allocations are just the sort are approaching the point at which they will no longer of thing on which the plug could be pulled next year, be able to dip into reserves to plug those manning gaps. the year after or the year after that. A Government Again, we could be approaching the edge of a precipice could boast that they were maintaining core funding, if special grants disappear and reserves are running out. with little change, but could pull the plug on the special If we do not have the alternative that the right hon. grant funded allocations. We would then see a drastic Member for Harrow, East rightly discussed in considerable reduction in police numbers. detail, and if we maintain the capping regime whereby the Government tell local authorities and, as in this Mr. McNulty: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving case, police authorities, that they can increase their way. I am not clear about this point. Have the Liberal precept only by a specified amount, or not at all—there Democrats said in terms whether they would commit to are suggestions that council tax might be entirely frozen 343 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 344 for a while in the future, which means that there will be percentage-wise, the saving in Derbyshire will have been cuts—where will the police and local communities turn higher than in other areas because it has had to make to? Will police numbers and the services that the police savings as a result of being underfunded by £5 million a provide simply drop dramatically? year—how much more flab can be cut? How many As a few hon. Members have already pointed out, more resources can be redirected into front-line policing? surveys by MORI and other organisations have all Given that 88 per cent. of police budgets are staffing come up with the same message—local people would be costs, a demand for more and more efficiency savings willing to pay 10 to 30 per cent more on their police must mean much more civilianisation, which has already precept if they could see a direct link between that gone on apace. How much further can authorities go money and local policing. A lengthy, in-depth consultation without taking real police off the streets? Alternatively, by Derbyshire police authority over two or three years efficiency savings will mean a loss of uniformed officer reached a similar conclusion. People do not want that numbers, so the phrase “efficiency savings”is a euphemism money to go to someone in London who will then hand for cuts. it back out in grants that may or may not come back to Derbyshire, for example. They want it to go to their Mr. Binley: Will the hon. Gentleman take into account police authority to spend on policing the streets in their that it is estimated that in the east midlands we have lost towns and villages, but the Government say that they £60 million in the past three years as a result of the will not allow that to happen and they have capped damping arrangements and other such measures? That authorities. We heard about capping earlier. In Derbyshire, is the equivalent of 600 police officers. last year, there was not an outright cap but what happened was effectively the same. The Government said, “We are Paul Holmes: Absolutely. In Derbyshire alone, the not going to cap you and make you re-bill, but we will loss is equivalent to 160 police officers. If we add the reduce your grant by the amount that you raised by losses across the east midlands, we arrive at the figure increasing the precept by more than we thought that that the hon. Gentleman has just given. I will return to you should.” So, this year that police authority is faced my slightly more parochial take on Derbyshire and the with an effective cap, even though it has been given a east midlands shortly. different name. I am interested in hearing the Minister’s comments We are told that efficiency savings are the new solution. on a different issue that has partly been touched on Back in the 1980s and 1990s, the Conservative Government today, which was also raised last year and the year used “efficiency savings”as a euphemism for the massive before. Some police authorities are very badly hit by cuts that they imposed in most sectors, including policing rapid population movements such as migration and and education, in which I worked. We must conclude changes due to migrant labour. For example, 1 million that this Government’s use of the same term will amount Poles—10 times the estimated number—came over, as to much the same thing. Several points need to be made did many people from other groups. Such movements about that. First, if one says that there are large efficiency can hit certain areas particularly badly in all sorts of savings to be made in the way that our police authorities ways, such as the requirement to fund the cost of using should be run in the next year or two, it implies that translators in courts and police stations. The Government there is a lot of waste—a lot of fat or flab—in the have just had to admit, in the past few days, that those system that could be removed, so that that money could costs are much higher than they had previously stated be spent on proper policing. I cannot speak for other in their answers to parliamentary questions. When this police forces, but I know that that is not true of the issue was raised in 2008, the then Minister with responsibility Derbyshire police, who have had to make as many for policing, the hon. Member for Harrow, East— efficiency savings as possible in the past few years because of Government underfunding. There are few Mr. McNulty: Right hon. efficiency gains left to be made in that force, so the idea that there is a lot of flab to be cut so that money can be Paul Holmes: Sorry. The right hon. Member for recycled is a dangerous one, especially given that police Harrow, East said that it was a very good point and that authorities cumulatively have made £2 billion-worth of we should look into it. When the same issue was raised efficiency savings in the past 10 years. How much more last year, the then Policing Minister—now the Minister can they do? for Schools and Learners, the hon. Member for Gedling (Mr. Coaker)—said exactly the same thing. I wonder Mr. McNulty: I take those points in part, but does the whether the current Minister for Policing, Crime and hon. Gentleman recognise that the five east midlands Counter-Terrorism, the right hon. Member for Delyn police authorities and forces have collaborated significantly (Mr. Hanson), will now, three years on, not only say since the denouement of the merger debate? The efficiency that that is a good point and that we should look at it, savings that they are making are real, and that money is but exactly what concrete action is being taken to being transferred to the front line. address the matter. Police authorities cannot wait for five or 10 years for Government statistics to catch up. Paul Holmes: Yes, the authorities have made great Education and health authorities have the same problem steps forward in that regard. Some criticisms have been when there are rapid influxes and sometimes egresses of levelled about police forces not collaborating, but the population, particularly of migrant workers, as with the Derbyshire police authority always says that that is not large number of Poles. true of the east midlands forces, and points to what successful collaboration there has been. It is also looking Let me ask a specific question. Appendix A of the at further collaboration, so there are things that can be report says that the population figures used to calculate done. However, if £2 billion-worth of cumulative efficiency police grants are savings have already been made across police authorities— “those available to the Secretary of State on 1 October 2007”. 345 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 346

[Paul Holmes] Mr. Hanson: The rise might be 29 in that period, but Derbyshire has got 285 more officers in the 12 years It talks about calculating the projected population for since March 1997. 2010 by using figures from the Registrar General that were published on 27 September 2007, whereas for Paul Holmes: That rise is still one of the lowest, per Welsh authority areas, the projected total resident head of population, in the entire country. population has been estimated using Welsh figures. A Finally, the Derbyshire police authority wrote to the big argument regarding local authorities and funding is Government on 6 January about the police grant report the fact that projections are often based on figures from that we are debating today. It said: the previous census, the last of which was nine years “We are disappointed that the final year of the three year grant ago in 2001. Is appendix A suggesting that the calculations settlement has not been used to move swiftly to full implementation for police grants are made using more up-to-date estimates, of the new formula grant settlement, introduced five years ago.” calculations or projections? How exactly are those figures It is still not fully implemented. The letter went on: arrived at, and are they more up to date than the projections used generally for local authority formulae “The grant floor continues to peg back the grant increase for Derbyshire Police Authority. calculations? If they are better and more up to date, that would be of great interest to old colleagues of mine For Derbyshire, this means that the Authority has lost out on funding of…£26 million in the five years since the new formula who get involved in local government funding issues, was introduced. We appreciate that full implementation in one which tend to be based on census figures. year would have been unduly harsh on authorities that stood to Let me discuss what is a slightly more parochial issue lose grant. Nevertheless, we believe that the three-year settlement for me as a Derbyshire MP. We have already had one provided an ideal opportunity to move to full implementation of example about the east midlands receiving, because of the formula, in a phased way that would have enabled those formula funding, caps, floors and ceilings, the fourth-lowest authorities to plan for a reduction in their grant.” level of Government funding for policing out of nine Derbyshire is in a bad position that has not really English regions. That is happened because of relatively improved. The future for all police authorities is, of low Government grants and the below-average base of course, looking grimmer but I hope that whoever is council tax in relation to income. For example, there is a making these decisions in a few weeks or months will greater proportion of properties in the lower council consider regions such as the east midlands and police tax band in the east midlands, so any council tax authorities such as Derbyshire. If cuts have to be made, precept increase brings in much less than a similar I hope that they will redress the balance, with areas such increase in more affluent areas. In 2006, the Government as Derbyshire, which is already so far behind, suffering said yes to the full implementation of the police grant fewer cuts than better funded areas. formula in the east midlands. The figures were wrong It is unacceptable for the Government to say, “Yes, and the F40 campaign was right after all those years. you need £5 million a year more if you are to provide The formula was reworked, and the new formula, from the policing that’s needed and, yes, we’re going to 2006, said that the east midlands should have had an inspect and judge you as though you’d got that money—but extra £19 million. Given that the east midlands police no, you can’t have it.” authorities collectively say that to meet the policing needs that they and the Government assess are required 3.12 pm now, this year, they need an extra £22 million, that £19 million virtually closes the gap. There is a huge gap Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I am happy to between what the police authorities say is required to support a fellow east midlands Member of Parliament meet policing needs in relation to risk, what the Government in asking for more. One of the features of debates like say that they should have in funding and what the this is that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides Government will give them. In that regard, the Derbyshire of the House press the Police Minister for more resources force is losing £5 million a year, so, for the Government for their area. In the end, we will all be judged, when we to say, “Yes, you need this money, but, no, you can’t face the electorate, by whether we take the issue of have it,” seems outrageous. We have heard some eloquent crime seriously and whether we have used the resources comments on that issue from a former policing Minister, that we have been given to deal with the causes of crime, the right hon. Member for Harrow, East, but it is a and crime itself, in the five years since the last election. shame that he could not implement those ideas two The Minister is probably fed up with my voice, as he years ago, when he was in office. Derbyshire’s underfunding was with the Select Committee on Home Affairs this of £5 million a year is equivalent to 160 officers and morning as we concluded our inquiry into crime prevention. more than 200 PCSOs. Derbyshire has the lowest level The former Prime Minister Tony Blair talked about the of PCSO funding per head of population of all forces Government being tough on crime and tough on the in the country. causes of crime. The Minister came with the very good Earlier, the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Judy news that crime has fallen since he has been in his post, Mallaber), who is not in her place any more, said that and that is obviously something to celebrate. The police Derbyshire’s police numbers had risen considerably in budget has increased, as hon. Members on both sides of the time that she had been a Member of Parliament. the House must accept. However, it is important to look However, in the five years between September 2004 and at the causes of crime, and we hope to conclude our September 2009, in an area with one of the lowest report on that subject before the general election is numbers of police officers per head of population in the called. country, the rise in police numbers was exactly 29. That I want to apologise to the House for missing the is not a great tribute to the Government’s actions in opening statement made by my right hon. Friend redressing the unfair funding given to Derbyshire compared the Minister, but the wonderful new technology of the to similar police authorities. BlackBerry, which we have suggested should be given to 347 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 348 every police officer, meant that I was kept informed of Keith Vaz: Yes, we did. Although we did not specify everything that he said. I was waiting to see the Prime music festivals in particular, that is one of the last Minister to discuss the important issue of Yemen, and recommendations in the report. We said that police the Prime Minister’s diary and commitments on Northern authorities, with the assistance of local stakeholders, Ireland meant that the meeting kept getting put back. should be able to raise the money that they need if local That is why I missed the start of the debate, for which I people agree that that should happen. am sorry, although I was present to hear the Opposition Of course we were worried about the cap, as spokesman, the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds Leicestershire is one the authorities that is to be capped. (Mr. Ruffley), talk about the Conservative party’s policy I was one of the all-party group of the county’s MPs in this area. that went to ask Ministers not to cap Leicestershire, on I thought that we could reach a consensus on police the grounds that the county’s police need the resources numbers, certainly after the Select Committee decided to deal with the work that has been put before them. We to conclude its unanimous report on police service accept that funding has increased, because that is a fact, strength. I see that two other members of the but Ministers have also posed new challenges to local Committee—my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, police forces. The amount of legislation that has emerged North (Mr. Winnick) and the hon. Member for South-West from this House and the challenges facing local police Devon (Mr. Streeter)—are in their places. We were officers mean that they have to spend more time doing being lobbied hard by police authorities and others: what the Government ask. some said that they would have to cut numbers, while The current Police Minister was not in post when the others said that they were happy with what they had Labour Government came to power. In fact, I cannot been given. Some authorities said that they had not had remember who the first one was, but the Government enough funding over the past 12 years. The hon. Member have been elected three times now and there will be for Chesterfield (Paul Holmes) reminded us that the things that the police were asked to do in 1997 that they east midlands had done worse than any other region, are now being asked not to do any more. That is why we and asked us to look at that. We therefore decided to welcome the appointment of Jan Berry. We welcomed have a dispassionate look at numbers. her report, but we want it to be implemented. What she We published our report a couple of weeks ago, and says is not that much different from what Sir Ronnie the key facts are in it. We found that the Government Flanagan said in his report, or from what we said in our were right to say that there had been a real-terms report “Policing in the 21st Century”—that is, that increase of 19 per cent. in central funding for the police there should be less bureaucracy and more technology. since 1997-98, and that there had been an increase of We should cut red tape and make sure that police 4.8 per cent. in the number of officers, and a rise of officers are on the front line and that they are visible. 15.5 per cent. in police support staff. However, we I raised with the Minister the case of Staffordshire, as found that was a decline in the number of visible police I always do. I saw very good practice in Staffordshire— officers in 13 of the 43 police authorities. Although we 24 pieces of paper reduced to one. I asked the previous can agree that the amount of money being made available Home Secretary whether that could be done all over the has gone up, the worry on both sides of the House has country. She said that the Government would look into to do with what is going to happen in the future. it. I asked the current Home Secretary and the Police I obviously hope that the Labour party will take Minister. They said that the Staffordshire experience is office after the general election, but it could be the being rolled out all over the country. It is a while since I Liberal Democrats or the Conservatives. Whichever was in government, so I am not quite sure what “rolled party it is, though, it will face the difficulty that a out” means. Does it mean that rolling out will take declining amount of resources will be dedicated to the several weeks, months and years, or does it mean a police service. One can wait for ages for a Police Minister Home Secretary telling police forces, “You will do this. to come along, but we have heard from two already We think this is a good idea because it saves money in today. It is possible that there are two future Police Staffordshire, so you will save money in Lincolnshire or Ministers on the Opposition Benches. Because 88 per in Northamptonshire”? cent. of the police budget is to do with the work force, I I know that the last time I raised the matter when the and my Committee believe that every Police Minister Minister was on the Front Bench he nodded and said will have to face the prospect of financial restraint. that it was being rolled out in Staffordshire, so let us see I hope that all hon. Members will read our report, when he replies how many police authorities have done because it suggests alternatives to cutting the budget. what Staffordshire has done, rather than waiting for the We looked at the involvement of the private sector, and great roll-out process, which I am sure is happening. It we talked about how the public sector could be more would be helpful for the House to have some facts. efficient. We also raised the issue of voluntary mergers: What I say to the Minister is yes, we need to look at although we do not say that they should be compulsory, innovative ideas. The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds we in the east midlands have already seen collaboration has, of course, had many debates and discussions with between the forces of Northamptonshire, Leicestershire, me and with the Committee on these matters, and the Lincolnshire, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. That is shadow Home Secretary gave evidence to the Committee an option and a scenario that could be pursued. this morning about what the Conservative party would Mr. Truswell: My right hon. Friend is talking about do to try to cut crime in the future. What we say is that it other ways for police forces and authorities to raise is important that we do not get into a debate about the revenue. Did his Committee look at the possibility of statistics, but that we look into the effect. giving police authorities greater powers to raise the full I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Bury cost of policing major events such as music festivals and St. Edmunds agrees that what people want, in the end, large sporting fixtures? is the visibility of police officers. They will accept any 349 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 350

[Keith Vaz] public needs to be much more involved in the process than they can be by attending one or two local changes in backroom staff, so long as a police officer neighbourhood meetings. In any popularity contest, the turns up when they ring and ask for an officer to be local beat officer is infinitely more important and more present. They will forgive us a great deal if we continue popular than any other local official, apart from the to provide that basic service. If we do, they will understand local doctor. Of course, we are way down the list that there must be changes in the way that the police do because we are elected officials and nobody likes Members their business. of Parliament, do they? Local councillors are probably I was as surprised as most when we read in the papers one rung ahead of us. and heard on the radio that the overtime rates have shot That local popularity must be translated into an up to such an extent that some police officers may be understanding of how the local police force works. I paid—I do not know whether this was mentioned before hope very much that we will engage in a discussion that I came into the Chamber—£100 for answering one will allow more information to go to local people, so phone call on overtime. That is an enormous sum of that they feel better informed and know that their public money. We do not know how many calls are money is well spent. We will never have the opportunity answered. When I put that to the Minister this morning, again, in my view, when people will not require value for he said that the Government needed to be robust in money from local police forces. dealing with it. I said that we should have attached It is a terrible state of affairs that special measures strings to the increase in police funding. We should have may be introduced for forces such as the Nottinghamshire required police authorities to do more so that such force. We have had to wait so long for action to be stories did not emerge and so that we did not see a taken. I know that the Minister told us today that these ballooning of overtime payments for the police. were matters for the inspectorate, but the inspectorate The Government are responsible for making sure should have acted sooner. Why was it allowed to reach a that that happens. We cannot wait for local forces to stage where a police authority with a multimillion pound achieve efficiency. There must be some direction from budget and chief officers who are paid hundreds of central Government because it is central Government thousands of pounds are assisted to do their job? That funding. I hope that that will happen in the long run, cannot be right. under whichever Administration take office after the There must be a better system of monitoring our next election. We should be much clearer about how local police forces at a local and national level, through public money should be spent. the inspectorate. Whether it is through the National We suggested in our last report that we should spend Policing Improvement Agency or by Denis O’Connor, money on new technology. All officers should be given a someone must do their work better so that council tax hand-held device so that they can take statements at the payers and citizens, like those of Nottinghamshire, do time of an incident. That would save time. They could not have to see their local police force being taken over use that instrument to find out whether a car had been because it has not been properly run. We want to make stolen. That would save the time of witnesses and of the sure that that is the only case of its kind, and that we act police. Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether that before we get to that stage. scheme has been rolled out. It is a no-brainer to make sure that our police are provided with sufficient equipment to enable them to do their job as efficiently as possible. 3.28 pm My final point relates to accountability. The Select Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): I hope to say a Committee has not considered the question of elected few words about the county of Surrey, and I very much commissioners or police chiefs at a local level, as opposed hope that the Policing Minister will at the end of the to the current system. The Government wanted to debate acknowledge not only that Surrey has a very ensure that members of the police committee were good police force, but that our county has particular elected. They then withdrew that proposal. My concern problems. I am quite certain that my hon. Friend the is the way in which the current system is run. We may Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley), who will know, as elected representatives, but the public do not be the next Policing Minister, will take a similar line. know, precisely who sits on police committees. We have a very good police force in Surrey. It is well In addition to local police forces acquiring greater led by chief constable Mark Rowley, and the British visibility, police committees need to ensure that they are crime survey assessed that it was the absolute top force more visible, so that if people had complaints about in the country in terms of public confidence in the policing, they would not necessarily have to make a police and local councils’ joint work to deal with antisocial complaint against the police. They could go to their behaviour. In Surrey, not least because of financial local police authority member and ask them to take up constraints, we are focusing very hard on local expectations their complaint. Police authority meetings would not rather than on national targets. then be seen as private meetings that are held in police We perform well with a low level of funding. So far, headquarters. More information would be provided to so good, but funding has always been a problem for the public. Perhaps by means of modern technology, Surrey. I do not expect any Government Front Bencher such meetings could be televised by the police and put to talk as positively as I shall about extra funding for online so that people had access to what was being Surrey police, but we are in a bad way. A lot of funding decided on their behalf. comes from a central Government grant, and some I am not sure that that would mean that we do not comes from the county council precept, but Surrey has have elected police chiefs. That is a debate that we need historically received one of the lowest per capita levels to have. There are no conclusions from the Committee of central Government funding of any police force in and I have no personal views on the matter, but the the country. For example, Government funding for 351 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 352

Surrey police in 1996 was £96 per head of population. cost of £1.2 million. It is ludicrous to spend £1.2 million By 2009-10, it had dropped to £93, which is £57 below to send back £1.6 million, and it was an indefensible the national level. That is not a happy state of affairs, decision. When we set that against the chronic shortfall and the formula that the Government use to allocate in central Government funding, in particular, we find funding to forces does not reflect the real cost of policing that it was a sad state of affairs. our county. I come now to the funding formula. I am not aware of whether you, Madam Deputy Speaker, have a first-class Mr. Hanson: I am grateful for those figures from the degree in mathematics—that seems to me entirely hon. Gentleman, but they do not equate with my possible—and the Minister may well have such a degree. understanding, which is that Government grants to However, I defy any Member of the House to explain, Surrey increased by £48.4 million, or 23 per cent. in real in comprehensible terms, what this formula is. For terms, between 1997 and 2009-10. posterity, I shall quote from a magnificent document Mr. Malins: That drags us into the issue of the called “The Police Grant Report”. Wait for it, Madam formula, which is mind-bogglingly complicated. I shall Deputy Speaker—it is incomprehensible. I have never, address that in a minute. If we work out our population in—I was going to say my 64 years of life, but I will say and the application of the formula over those many my long life—come across anything that is such years, we are left with the figure that I gave the House a gobbledegook: I am flabbergasted by it. This part is one moment ago. of about 15—it talks about something called top-ups, and is headed “Police Crime Top-Up 1”. Here we go; I Surrey has rather different problems from those of advise the Minister to make a note: any other county. We are the best away-day county for “2.6482 multiplied by DAYTIME NET INFLOW PER criminals. I do not say that all criminals come from RESIDENT POPULATION; plus somewhere other than Surrey, but the M25 has certainly 0.2953 multiplied by LOG OF BARS PER 100 HECTARES; helped them. When my house in Surrey was burgled plus seven years ago, I was sure that an hour and a half later 16.2210 multiplied by INCOME SUPPORT/INCOME BASED the burglars were somewhere north of London. I do not JSA/GUARANTEE ELEMENT OF PENSION CREDIT know why I think that all burglars come from north, as CLAIMANTS; plus opposed to south, London. What a bias I show! I do 34.1326 multiplied by SINGLE PARENT HOUSEHOLDS”. not mean that at all; I withdraw it. However, the reality Well, it is impossible; I could look at that on an exam is that the motorway has helped considerably. Being paper for a couple of hours and would not have the serious, I think that 50 per cent. of crimes in our county slightest clue. At the end of the document, under the are committed by cross-border criminals from neighbouring heading “Scaling Factor”—I do not have a clue what a areas. That aspect of life in Surrey is not accounted for scaling factor is, and I am still none the wiser—it says: in the funding formula. We have extra, different problems and responsibilities in Surrey, and they are not reflected “The scaling factor used in paragraph 5.6…is: in the formula, although I hope that they might be in 0.999997836417373”. the future. It is magnificent. At this point, I address my remarks particularly to Mr. Hanson: I can help the hon. Gentleman: the my hon. Friend on the Opposition Front Bench. The answer at the end is usually “not enough”. M25, for example, has extra policing requirements, and we also have to help with Gatwick and Heathrow, which Mr. Malins: I am very grateful. The Minister is a very are both massive airports. Then there is the odd, one-off good man for whom I have had the greatest respect over case, of which Surrey seems to have rather too many. the years, and that respect remains even now. They are the one-off cases in which there is an extra bill Surrey is battling on. Something rather innovative is for Surrey council tax payers, who fund the police happening in our county, and I wonder whether other precept. A typical example was the General Pinochet police forces are aware of it; I suspect that the Minister situation, when we had to look after him in Surrey for will be. Whatever the financial constraints, we are trying years and years but got no extra money for doing so. to get 200 more visible police officers on the streets. There is another little issue, which I discussed with How are we going to do that? Well, there are some very the chief constable not long ago: terrorism. One thinks interesting new ideas as regards what is happening in of Surrey as a county with leafy lanes; one would not Surrey. There are to be cuts in the number of senior somehow associate it with terrorism. But in Surrey officers, and cuts in bureaucracy. The chief constable, there are potential cells—put it that way—of people Mark Rowley, is exploring, with local councils, opportunities who do not mean well, and I know that the burden of to locate local policing teams within borough and district expense on the police force has been increasing. Trying council offices to provide a better service to the public to explain that Surrey faced extra burdens in that in tackling local problems. That approach has been connection, I raised that issue, and some time ago so piloted in my own constituency of Woking. I wondered did my noble Friend Lord Trefgarne. He did so in the about it to start with, but then I thought after a while other place with the noble Lord West, who answered on that it is not a bad idea. People can pop into the council behalf of the Government. As I have said, Surrey does offices, and the police are there. They sometimes want very well with a low grant. to have a chat about various issues, and they do not It was sad when our policing grant was capped, have to go miles from one place to another. Then I however. It was a terrible business when the decision thought of one or two clapped-out police stations in was announced. We had a big debate about it in Westminster Surrey, and realised that it is no bad thing if the police Hall and I remember that all my Surrey colleagues were can move around a bit and, in the meantime, save a bit there. The decision was made to ask Surrey police to of money that they can use for front-line policing. That return £1.6 million to the Surrey tax payer at an actual approach is working pretty well in Woking; Addlestone 353 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 354

[Mr. Malins] through the Devon and Cornwall police accounts for the year to 31 March 2009. I was interested to note that has also reaped its rewards. Having more accessible it cost £1.4 million to run the police authority—not the places for the public to meet the police is a great idea, police force but the bureaucracy and administration and replacing some old and expensive police buildings necessary to support it. If we are successful in winning can help as well. the next election—let us face it, it is by no means in the In my retirement, I plan to spend day after day bag and it will be a very close contest—our innovative looking at the police formula and trying to comprehend and radical plan of electing police commissioners will it. There may come a time when I send a note to my cut most of that cost at a stroke. As a country we are colleagues saying what it really means, but I think that short of radical ideas for police forces, but that would the Minister is absolutely right—it means “We need mean that we would not need so much bureaucracy, so more money, please.” One day, surely, the formula must that £1.4 million could mainly be diverted towards be revisited a little bit; we should recognise that it can police officers. operate somewhat unfairly against an extremely good I know that the chief constable of Devon and Cornwall county such as Surrey. will not thank me for pointing this out, and he is a good chief constable doing a good job, but I was interested to 3.38 pm note that he is paid a salary of more than £175,000. Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): It is a great pleasure and privilege to follow my hon. Friend Mr. Malins: Good Lord. the Member for Woking (Mr. Malins). The House will miss his witty interventions when he retires—ridiculously Mr. Streeter: Indeed, and that is much the same as early, if I may say so—at the next general election. the Prime Minister. I do not know what other Members In this short debate, we are considering the police think, but I find it hard to understand how people in the support grant for 2010-11. However, the elephant in the public sector doing lesser jobs than the Prime Minister room is what happens in April 2011 for 2011-12 and can justify salaries of that magnitude. When the Prime onwards. Minister goes to bed at night he is concerned about It is good to see that the right hon. Member for Northern Ireland, the situation in the middle east, Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), the Chairman of the Home Afghanistan and all the pressures that he is under. It is Affairs Committee, has come back into the Chamber. I not quite the same to grapple with crime on Union know that he is going to stay throughout the entirety of street in Plymouth, serious and important though that my speech, so he may wish to take his place. I agree with is. I am not saying that the chief constable’s salary is too him that much of the evidence that we have heard over much, but I wonder whether many people in my recent weeks and months suggests that from April 2011 constituency are aware of how much he earns. Perhaps onwards, there will certainly be a tightening of the they will be from tomorrow onwards. position. Many chief constables and police authorities There are five police officers in Devon and Cornwall around the country are concerned about that. who earn more than £100,000. I did not know that until It seems to me that whoever wins the election, from last night, and I do not think many of my constituents April 2011 there will be a tightening of budgets. The key do. In the great wider debate about public sector salaries challenge is protecting front-line policing when budgets at senior level, it is important that our constituents have will be under constant pressure, probably for three to the information on which to make their judgment. I five years. Obviously, that will partly depend on individual certainly agree with those who say that no one in the police officers being able to improve how they deliver public sector should earn more than the Prime Minister services, through some of the ideas that have come in the years ahead. forward this afternoon, and it will partly be about Devon and Cornwall police authority spends £500,000 saving costs elsewhere in the system in a way that does a year on press and publicity. Maybe that is money well not have an impact on front-line policing. I wish to spent, and perhaps it is a reflection of the world in suggest one possible way of doing that, using my own which we live, but it is still an awful lot of money. It police authority—Devon and Cornwall—as an example. could pay for five senior police officers, I suppose. First, I wish to say that Devon and Cornwall has a The main thrust of my argument—the Minister has good police authority and a good police force, and I pay heard it before, and I have bored the Home Affairs tribute to all the hard-working police officers in my Committee with it quite a lot in recent weeks and constituency, whether they are inspectors, sergeants, months—is that we can do an awful lot more to ensure constables or police community support officers. Day that there is co-operation between police forces, up to in, day out, they do an excellent job, and all credit to and including voluntary mergers. When that was being them. I obviously welcome the uplift in the amount of discussed five or six years ago by the then Home Secretary, money that Devon and Cornwall will receive over the the right hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke), next 12 months—an additional £5.746 million, making whose views we now agree with daily—he has some a total grant from the Government of £117 million, great insights into the workings of this Government—I which is very welcome. The police authority’s total completely opposed the suggestion that Devon and spend in the 12 months to March 2009 was £295 million, Cornwall police should merge with other authorities. which shows that a lot of its income is received apart However, as I have said in the Home Affairs Committee from Government, but we welcome any increases in and to wider audiences, I was completely wrong on Government funding. that. The Government were wrong to force such mergers As I said, from April 2011 we will struggle to safeguard from a top-down position, and we have probably arrived front-line policing, whoever is in power. How can we do at a much more balanced situation today. Police forces that? I was looking last night, sad person that I am, up and down the country are being encouraged—and 355 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 356 they are doing so voluntarily—to look at the savings Members of Parliament and councillors have regular that can be made by co-operating or merging with their meetings with him and he is a very impressive officer—and next-door police force. a tremendous relationship at ward level, with inspectors, As part of the Committee’s studies, we interviewed sergeants and constables on the beat. That is how most the very impressive Chief Constable Parker of Bedfordshire communities relate to their police. They relate to their police. Answering a question from me about the possibility beat constable, and they might go to meetings to which of her force merging with the Hertfordshire police force, an inspector or sergeant might go. The relationship is she gave me this information: not with the police authority or with the headquarters at Middlemoor in Exeter; it is much closer. Therefore, “Since 2006 the Chief Constable of Hertfordshire and myself have been working with our authorities on a collaboration programme. adding Dorset to Devon and Cornwall police, or even We have collaborated to the extent that we have joint units of going a step further to incorporate Avon and Somerset more than 500 police officers and staff and that has saved us within the same police area, would not diminish £2.2 million year-on-year. Our estimates—in fact they are more accountability on the ground, because accountability than estimates because we have worked very hard on the business happens in a very different way. It is wrong, of course, case—are—first of all, the bad news—that it will cost us £20 million to do things just for financial reasons, but I see little or to make the merger happen, but within three years we would be no downside to a bottom-up rationalisation of police gaining savings of £14.6 million per annum.” forces—not top-down pressure from the Government in My maths is not particularly strong, unlike yours, Madam which they would define the values of mergers—that Deputy Speaker, with your first-class degree in the could save millions of pounds. Such a rationalisation subject, but £14 million savings for £20 million is a would help whoever wins the next election to bridge the pretty good start—it is for only three years. gap and keep police officers on the front line. I encourage Chief Constable Parker went on to say: chief constables to speed up discussions with neighbouring authorities and consider voluntary mergers. “To put that against the picture that we were working on in terms of budget gap, we estimate—this is an estimate obviously—that My experience in 17 years as a Member of Parliament by 2013-14 combined forces would have a budget gap of over has been that uniformed services—be they the armed £23 million.” forces, the ambulance service, the fire service or the Whoever wins the next election, that is the sort of police force—are slow to change and can be poor at challenge that police forces are going to be looking embracing technology. It is not good enough to leave at—that was from the horse’s mouth, the chief constable things to them. A little pressure from the Home Office of Bedfordshire. One way we can fill that gap is to is necessary to encourage police forces to seek the most encourage police forces to consider voluntary merger. efficient way to deliver their services. The police force in Devon and Cornwall spends an What kind of savings could be made and on what awful lot of money every year on policing Travellers. We functions? If Devon and Cornwall police merged with have an increasing number of intrusions into my Dorset police, the new force would need only one chief constituency, and one reason why they are so expensive constable—thereby saving a very significant salary—fewer to police is the system for dealing with them. In almost senior officers and only one headquarters. I imagine every case, the local authority must serve a notice, that one force could get away with far fewer accountants which means consulting lawyers and putting legal papers in the police authority and, presumably, one force would in order, and that is expensive. Then the authority must need the same number of press and marketing people as wait for the notice to expire, during which time the two—they would just need to cover a slightly wider police are in attendance in most cases—costing money—but territory. Money would be saved on back-office costs, they are not free to act. The legislation needs to be administration, and human resources and personnel. looked at again— Such savings could add up to many millions of pounds. The Devon and Somerset fire services recently merged. Mr. Binley: Does my hon. Friend agree that, once the There were quite a few wobbles and concerns about that process has been completed, the Travellers go on a little to begin with, but things settled down extremely well, circuit, returning in nine months to a year, and the and it has been able to save significant sums in back-office whole process has to be gone through again? In my functions. Police forces could do the same. patch, that has happened for five years in one particular One may ask, “What about accountability?” but I area—it is crazy. would answer, clearly and boldly, that Devon and Cornwall Mr. Streeter: I agree strongly with my hon. Friend, police authority has no real accountability to the people and the House needs to look at this issue again. We of Devon and Cornwall. I must confess—this is shocking need to modernise and streamline the law, because it is admission—that I did not know the name of the chair an expensive problem that causes great irritation in the of Devon and Cornwall police authority until I looked local community. At the very least, the police should it up this morning on the internet. The chair recently have the power to move Travellers on without waiting changed, so that was not completely hopeless on my for the local authority process to take place. I do not part, but I did not know the name and I am supposed to quite understand why that is not the law, although I am be an informed elected representative of that area. If I sure that it is for good reasons. The Minister may not asked my constituents how many of them could name want to touch on this when he winds up, as it is slightly the chair of the Devon and Cornwall police authority, I outside the scope of this order, but it is a costly business suspect the answer would be three or four. That is the and very frustrating for local councils and our constituents. reality: there is no connection between the authority My main point is that whoever wins the next election and the people of Devon and Cornwall. will face tremendous challenges. One way to bridge the Accountability and connectivity happens at base gap and ensure that we can support and protect front-line command unit level. We have a tremendous relationship policing is to try to encourage all police forces to with the commander of the Plymouth BCU—local consider increased collaboration and voluntary mergers. 357 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 358

[Mr. Streeter] lost £16.5 million, which equates to about 80 additional police officers who could have been recruited to tackle 3.53 pm crime in Peterborough and Cambridgeshire. Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): In the The Minister will know that Cambridgeshire has one middle of the 19th century, Lord Palmerston said: of the fastest-growing populations in England and faces specific issues with large-scale EU migration. Close on “Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig- Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German 20,000 EU migrants—mainly Lithuanians, but also Latvians professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all and Poles—have come to Peterborough in the past six about it.” years, and inevitably that has demonstrably put a strain One could say almost the same thing about the police not only on primary education, primary care and housing, formula grant. Yesterday was Groundhog Day, and that but on crime and policing. That is the reasonable and is what it feels like today for me, because for the past fair point that Mrs. Spence, the chief constable, has three years I have come to put to Ministers, either in the consistently put to Ministers over a significant period—but Chamber or in Westminster Hall, the sui generis situation to no end, apparently. in Cambridgeshire of consistent underfunding of its If one takes the census figures as read, including the constabulary. 2006 mid-year estimates, we remain the sixth lowest I begin by paying warm tribute to all the staff, police funded force per thousand head of population for police officers and police community support officers in officers and the fourth lowest overall for all staff in the Cambridgeshire, especially to the leadership of the chief whole of England and Wales. Unfortunately, despite constable, Julie Spence, who has made a coherent, cogent the lobbying and myself and others imploring the and strong case for increased funding on the basis of a Government to consider our specific issues, we compare perfect storm of issues that have affected the Peterborough very unfavourably with comparator forces such as Essex, constituency in Cambridgeshire, alluded to earlier by Gloucestershire, Avon and Somerset and Warwickshire. the Minister and, generously, by the right hon. Member I want to return to the stresses and strains caused by for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), the former Minister. I the ramifications of the free movement directive, which speak as someone whose father served in the Metropolitan was enacted in May 2004 for EU migrants. I have never police for 25 years and whose younger brother is a said that those people—many of them good, decent, serving Metropolitan police officer. hard-working people—are particularly responsible for I thought that the Minister showed a strange mixture any more or less crime than anyone else. That is not the earlier of cocky complacency and rather pugilistic arrogance, point. The issue is the large numbers. The right hon. which is unusual for him—he is normally pretty emollient Member for Harrow, East made the point that things and amenable to arguments. We do not see policing in have moved so quickly that the Office for National Peterborough through his rose-tinted glasses, and it Statistics, the Home Office and the Migration Impacts ill-behoves him to lecture and challenge us on our fiscal Forum have failed to keep track of the numbers and policies given that his Government have presided over the pressures that have arisen so quickly, changing the an appalling deterioration of public finances and have character of whole neighbourhoods and making the been unwilling, or unable, to come forward with a challenges so significant for senior and beat police comprehensive spending review for the next period. All officers. the Government’s prognostications, pledges and promises are therefore worthless. They certainly care, but they Paul Holmes: On the hon. Gentleman’s point about cannot possibly know what situation will prevail whether migrant labourers are more likely to be involved beyond 2011. in crime, I understand that some recent research has That pertinent and apposite point was made by my shown that they are more likely to be the victims of hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds crime. That still causes extra costs for the police, because (Mr. Ruffley) from the Front Bench. As I made clear of translation services and all the rest of it, but migrant earlier, prior to the May 2005 election generous promises labourers are more likely to be the victims of crime than were made on the then vogue of having more police the cause. community support officers, and a promise was given to deliver 24,000 over the next period of the Labour Mr. Jackson: The hon. Gentleman makes an astute Government. They were re-elected, but failed, by 8,000 point. The research consultancy Ibex Insight undertook officers, to deliver on that manifesto pledge. So hon. a study called “Policing Peterborough” in 2005, which Members will understand if I consider that the Minister made that exact point. To give a simple example, where might have gilded the lily somewhat in his self- single women who do not earn very much money are congratulatory speech. living with younger men in houses in multiple occupation, I shall return to the situation in Cambridgeshire. The they are, whether we like it or not, likely to be the Minister will know that I secured a debate in Westminster victims of offences as serious as sexual assault, theft, Hall in February 2008 on funding in Peterborough and intimidation and so on. That was one of the findings of Cambridgeshire, in which I was supported by hon. that report, which was commissioned, incidentally, by Friends and the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Cambridgeshire constabulary to support its argument Howarth). We made the case that, in our opinion, on funding. Cambridgeshire was a special case. The floors and The hon. Gentleman is quite right that we are not ceilings system must be looked at again, because although stigmatising the migrant work force, but saying that we received a slightly more than average increase this both ends of the spectrum—from those who perpetrate year, cumulatively under the damping mechanism we crime to those who are the victims—put significant have lost £2.7 million. Since the mechanism was put in extra pressure on police forces. Around half of all the place in the 2004-05 fiscal year, we have cumulatively cases processed through the custody block at Thorpe 359 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 360

Wood police station, in the west of Peterborough, involve today, does he agree that the problem is that, even when people whose first language is not English. One can the police catch criminals, they are back out on the imagine the substantial revenue issues that that raises street because of the Government’s early release scheme? for Cambridgeshire constabulary. Indeed, the projected That alone costs forces more money than they have— cost of translation and interpretation in this financial year is £865,000. The cost of using the interpretation Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. I must service offered by Language Line Services Ltd runs at rule the hon. Lady out of order because we are talking approximately £7,300 a month, while 22 per cent. of not about sentencing policy, but about the grant that those using it are Lithuanian, 19 per cent. are Polish police authorities have. and 12 per cent. are Russian, with a significant number— two dozen—of various other languages used. Mr. Jackson: I am grateful for your guidance, Madam For that reason alone, Cambridgeshire is deserving of Deputy Speaker, but I concur heartily with my hon. a specific review of its funding, and that is without Friend. taking into account the issues of tourism in Cambridge, May I finish on some of the points made by my hon. the organic growth of residential housing in the county Friends? I totally agree with the views expressed by my and, as touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Friend the Member for South-West Devon. The South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter), Gypsies and Travellers, problem with the mooted 2006 mergers was that they who have crime-related issues that have had a big impact were top-down and forced; there was little public on the south of the county in the constituencies of my consultation and little opportunity to debate properly hon. Friends the Members for South Cambridgeshire the issues surrounding the specific challenges and problems (Mr. Lansley) and for South-East Cambridgeshire of each force. The then Home Secretary understood (Mr. Paice). that. There is ample evidence that, on payroll, human resources, procurement and premises, local police forces We would not be so concerned about the issue if the can and will work together. My hon. Friend is right crime figures were not so spectacularly out of kilter about Devon and Somerset fire service, which is accruing with the views of the Minister. In the city area of significant savings as a result of that. Peterborough, we are more than twice as likely to experience problems of acquisitive crime, as compared There is a huge deficit in accountability because with the English average. The rates for robbery, burglary, many senior police officers are accountable to no one sexual offences and theft from a vehicle are all twice as but the Home Secretary in practice. They must be high as the average too, while our rate for violence accountable within strict parameters and a framework against the person is one third higher. Indeed, some in that we all buy into and understand and that has my constituency have said that over the past year we legitimacy in the House and beyond to local people, have witnessed, on the latest figures, an epidemic of with their local priorities. We should never be in a acquisitive crime. Burglaries are up by 20 per cent. and situation where the operational decisions of the police robberies are up by 37.5 per cent. since 2008, are in the hands of politicians, who may use them for notwithstanding the excellent work of Cambridgeshire electoral advantage. I do not agree with that, and that is constabulary, in particular through Operation Alert. It not the case in most places in the world. However, we might be as well to mention the great work of Chief need that golden thread between ordinary people on the Superintendent Andy Hebb and his deputy, Superintendent street and their experience of crime and policing, and Paul Fullwood, who are trying their best to deal with the people who make the decisions in central Government having very few officers and an increase in crime. and at local level in the constabulary. For that reason, I heartily support the call by hon. Members and hon. Policing is only part of the issue. We need to look Friends for elected police commissioners. That will restore again at sentencing policies, the role of the judiciary people’s faith and trust in the criminal justice system. It and the message that they send out to victims and will mean that people have a real input into the decisions criminals and those who would be tempted to commit that are made about their local communities and tackling crime. I mentioned in passing last week one of many crime. Most people are law-abiding and decent, but examples, I am afraid, from Peterborough Crown court: they want fairness, accountability and transparency. the case of Lee and Carl Edwards, two brothers in my constituency, who were convicted on 135 counts of With that, I hope that the Minister specifically addresses burglary between them. The judge at the trial, deputy the issues that I have raised about the Cambridgeshire circuit judge John Farnworth, considered it appropriate constabulary. I pay tribute to all the people who work in to jail them for 30 months and 51 weeks. The message the police service in Cambridgeshire, and I hope that we that sends to my constituents—decent, hard-working get a better settlement when we have a Conservative people who get up in the morning, take their children to Government in the next few weeks. school, look smart, take pride in themselves, go to work and earn a decent wage—is that the judicial system does 4.9 pm not care about them; it looks after people with so-called Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): I chaotic lives, at the so-called fringes of society, and it is wish I could tell the Minister that my remarks will be more interested in them than hard-working people. sizeably different in any way from many of those who That has to be a factor not just in the number of police, have spoken before, but they will be similar—except but in the way in which the judicial system works. The that I shall talk about the needs of Northamptonshire feeling that some people have is that the system works whereas other Members spoke of the needs of their to the advantage of the criminals, not the victims. counties. What strikes me, however, is the degree of cross-party Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): To bring my hon. unanimity on the need to reform the formula. We heard Friend back to the financing debate that we are having a wonderful display of proper contribution to debate 361 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 362

[Mr. Brian Binley] that it believes should have come its way. As I pointed out in an intervention, that equates to an additional from my hon. Friend the Member for Woking(Mr. Malins), 600 officers each year. I was pleased to hear the hon. who is no longer in his place, about the total lack of Member for Chesterfield (Paul Holmes) make the same ability to understand formula funding and its detail. I point earlier. hope that the Minister will be able to promise us a total Northamptonshire county constabulary are particularly review of funding to ensure that when the new funding bewildered by the results of damping as it affects formula is introduced, it will be understandable at least Northumbria police, who are the biggest gainers in this to those who have to read these documents and try to respect. They receive £36 million of subsidy per annum, make sense of them, but who, as my hon. Friend said, which allows the local authority to freeze the council so far fail to do so on every occasion. I do not want to tax. How my own police authority would like to be in test the Minister on his knowledge of understanding of the same position, but it is not. It is especially unfair the formula. [HON.MEMBERS: “Go on.”] It would be that, owing to the cumulative effect of damping over a cruel to do so. There is a real need, however, to create a number of years, Northamptonshire police are consistently greater understanding for all of us. being denied the level of grant that they require according There is also a real need to create fairer formulae. I to the needs formula itself. That seems to me like Alice know that my own county constabulary—as I shall in Wonderland. explain in a little more detail later, it has missed out If there was ever a need for change, this is it. I should badly as a result of formula funding and experienced like someone to look in the mirror, decide that change is considerable difficulties with financing—has worked needed, and tell us that it is going to happen. I hope that tremendously hard and wants to communicate that fact the Minister, who has been fair and courteous throughout to the people it serves. A police survey is currently the debate, will be able to promise to review the formula under way, which simply asks, “I would be prepared to funding process. pay more council tax for a higher level of service. Yes or No?” I do not know what the result will be, but it shows Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): He will not that there is real concern about police funding. I know be here to do it. that my county constabulary is most concerned about formula funding. Mr. Binley: Well, he is here now, so he can make the I welcomed the remarks of the former police Minister, promise now. I would expect a similar promise to be the right hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), made from my own Front Bench. If the Minister makes who is no longer in his place. He spoke thoughtfully on that promise today, I shall be able to go back to the basis of his long experience, but he made the same Northamptonshire and tell the county constabulary, point that I am making to the Minister at this very who will be immensely happy. The Minister can see how moment—the formulae used for funding are so open to easy it is to make our policemen happy, and I hope he total incomprehension that they must be reformed. will try to do that. That from an ex-Minister. I know that the present Minister has a number of very clever civil servants There are other reasons why I believe that the funding supporting him—they are sitting in this Chamber at formula should be changed. As my hon. Friend the this moment—and I hope that they will understand the Member for Woking pointed out in his amusing speech, depth of feeling among us on this issue, because we we need only look at the book to see how complicated it need everybody to get behind this. If we manage to is, but no formula is any good if the basic input figures make the changes we want, it is they who will have to do are wrong. This formula uses national statistics, and, the work, and I wish them very well. unbelievably, the Office for National Statistics concluded I have had a number of discussions with my own that Northampton would experience no population growth constabulary, the last this morning, about the particular between 2000 and 2008. issues affecting it. The damping arrangements are a I am sorry, but Northampton represents part of the particular problem. Damping is supposed to subsidise Government’s major expansion plan. I am sure that the forces with the least relative need by taking grants from Minister has been to my town and has seen the thousands those forces with the greatest relative need in order to upon thousands of new houses. I do not know who lives ensure that they receive a minimum year-on-year increase in them. I know some of my constituents but not the rather than a cut. That is my basic understanding of whole lot, and many are relative newcomers. Unless damping as a formula. people in Northamptonshire are dying at an incredible Tragically, damping is not working—certainly not in rate there must have been an increase in population, but Northamptonshire. My police authority and county those are the figures that were used for the funding constabulary believe that they suffer from a particularly formula. No wonder we consider them to be totally unfair example of formula funding. Northamptonshire discredited. police estimate that they will lose £853,000 of formula My good and hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough grant next year as a result of damping. Indeed, they tell (Mr. Jackson) mentioned immigration. As in Peterborough, me that they have lost £1,844,000 of formula grant over so in Northampton. We have seen a massive influx of the last three years because of this particular process. mostly very good people—mainly from eastern Europe— As the Minister will know, that is a great deal of money but some of them are not so good, and they place put to Northamptonshire police. In fact, it equates to 20 extra a sizeable additional strain on our police force. The officers in the county each year. formula is not nimble and quick-footed enough to be I have already observed that the east midlands region able to take that increase into account. Therefore, seems to be particularly damaged by this element of Northamptonshire misses out again, especially bearing formula funding. It is estimated that over the last three in mind that the county town accounts for about a third years the region has lost £60 million of formula grant of our population. 363 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 364

All specific grants, excluding the neighbourhood policing hon. Friends the Members for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty) fund, have been frozen for six years. That means there and for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), and the hon. Members will be a real-terms cut for Northamptonshire police. for Woking (Mr. Malins), for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) Indeed, Northamptonshire’s capital grant from Government and for Chesterfield (Paul Holmes) all said that they is frozen at £1.379 million. Specific grants are used to have concerns about the funding formula. I can also, at fund activities such as rural policing, and rural policing last, smile sweetly at the hon. Member for Northampton, is especially expensive. I know from all my correspondence South, because he has raised that issue in a way that can and conversations with people from the rural area that I only charm me into responding to him in a positive way. myself live in, which is just outside Northampton, how I must tell all those Members that we keep the funding strongly the local rural population feels that it is not formula under review. I recognise that, as the hon. getting a good deal from the police service. The people there Members for Woking and for Peterborough mentioned rarely see a policeman. It is true that Northamptonshire said, there are pressures from population factors, tourism police have tried very hard to lift the profile of policing and a range of other issues; in Wales—in my part of the in rural areas, but the fact of the matter is that the local world—Cardiff city council and the South Wales police population still feels it is being hard done by, and I force are raising issues relating to sporting events. would put money on that also being the case in We are undertaking a review of the funding formula. constituencies across the land with rural areas. It was started in September 2008 and is due to conclude I ask the Minister to look at this issue as a matter of shortly. I would like to announce a public consultation urgency. He has heard that plea from Members on both period over the summer of 2010, after—I hope—I have sides of the House during this debate. I simply ask that been re-elected to this office in the general election. The when he rises to his feet, he looks at me and smiles points that colleagues have made should be passed on sweetly, and says how much he agrees with the hon. to me and my officials, because we need to examine the Member for Northampton, South and that he will issues as part of the public consultation. We have given ensure that the change to the formula funding is undertaken a commitment to examine the funding formula for the and that that will create an easier to understand and next comprehensive spending review. We did not want fairer situation for constituencies such as mine and to carry out that examination in the middle of the counties such as Northamptonshire—and I hope my current three-year cycle, because there will be winners Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Member for Bury and losers in any potential change. St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) does the same thing. There is a genuine wish—the hon. Member for Northampton, South can take this back to his constituency 4.22 pm this weekend—to say that there will be a review and a Mr. Hanson: With the leave of the House, I would consultation, that an assessment of the factors mentioned like to respond to the debate. It has been very interesting, in this debate will be made and that there will be a and there have been some common themes—and there revised funding formula, in one shape or another, for has also been occasion to smile, just for the hon. Member the next comprehensive spending review. As hon. Members for Northampton, South (Mr. Binley). The main common will know, we have removed the ceilings—floors still theme is a point I mentioned at the beginning of the exist and we intend to remove those. The time frame has debate: every Member who has spoken represents an not yet been determined, but we will seek to remove area whose police force has more officers now than them when we can. We need to ensure financial stability. 12 years ago. The local force of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) in Cambridgeshire, for instance, Mr. Binley: I welcome the Minister’s remarks very has 109 more officers than 13 years ago. The police much, and I believe people in Northamptonshire will forces covering the constituencies of every Member too. Will he ensure that when that review is undertaken who has spoken today also have more resources than in a relatively extensive consultation on the issue takes 1997 in real terms, including, dare I say it, my own force place? We need input from as wide an area as possible. in north Wales, which has £45 million more than in 1997 in real terms. Every force of every Member who has spoken today has lower crime rates than in 1997, Mr. Hanson: There will be a public consultation, and too. Overall, the rate is 36 per cent. lower than in 1997. I hope that it will take place in the summer of 2010. It Therefore, whatever points Members have made in this will be up to whoever forms the Government and debate, the background to it is that we are still working whoever the Policing Minister is to take that forward, from a very strong base in terms of the resources, crime but there will be a need to examine the funding formula. figures and police numbers in their constituencies. We anticipate that that will happen and it will involve Under the police settlement for 2010-11, next year widespread discussion. We certainly want to look at there will be about £259 million more for policing that positively. across England and Wales than this year. That means The hon. Members for Chesterfield and for Peterborough that every force of every Member who has spoken in the made points about population estimates. They are based debate will get a minimum increase of 2.5 per cent. The on the census, but they are projected forward by the average increase across the board will be 2.7 per cent., Office for National Statistics. The formula does still use with a high of 3.5 per cent. in the case of Avon and the most up-to-date population data possible as part of Somerset. That is extra resources at a time of recession our assessment for the future. When I see the evidence with a commitment from Government to meet those before me, I can do no other than accept that there are resources, and along with that there is falling crime, disparities in the funding agreements because of the higher police numbers and more resources in general. formula; the range is from 36 per cent. in Northumbria I accept that there are some issues, however. The hon. to minus 4 per cent. in Essex, and we are examining Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley), my right those wide variations. But I still contend that the formula 365 Police Grant Report3 FEBRUARY 2010 Police Grant Report 366

[Mr. Hanson] money on overtime and with better deployment, use of special constables and some scrutiny of overtime we can is good for the current cycle in its form, it has delivered save money and can, I hope, save £70 million. more resources and the £259 million that we have put in I am conscious of the time, so my final two points has been important. relate to voluntary mergers. We have made it very clear The hon. Members for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) that, following the difficulties of the merger debate and for Bury St. Edmunds raised the valid point about several years ago, the White Paper published before funding post-April 2011. They will both know that I Christmas set a framework for voluntary mergers. The cannot commit on the broadest Home Office funding people involved can merge if they want to and they will issues at the moment, because we do not have a CSR. In have the support to do so, but they will need the support answer to the point made by the hon. Member for Bury of the chief constable, the authority and, ultimately, the St. Edmunds, I should say that the Chancellor has made public who they serve. To help that process, we have put a commitment to ensure that forces can maintain their in place a £500,000 fund up front to help with some of officers numbers, be they police community support the costs of preparing for mergers. That is available to officers or full warranted officers. The forces will receive be drawn down and applied for now and will be until sufficient funding to maintain whatever officer numbers April of this year. they wish to maintain, based on the current levels for April 2011. The priorities for this Government have We have also said that we will consider one of the been education, health and police numbers. All Departments blockages to mergers, which is council tax precept will face challenges as a result of the funding settlement, equalisation. We are happy to consider how we can but those commitments have been given to date. work through that now and in the longer term with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities It is important—these are my final two points in and Local Government. There is a wish to move the response to those that were raised—that we get better mergers forward. They can save resources, but they have efficiency from the system. We talked about that this to be voluntary and locally driven. morning in the Home Affairs Select Committee and we have mentioned it in the debate today—it was mentioned Finally, may I refer briefly to the roll-out of the four by the hon. Member for Chesterfield and my right hon. force pilot, even though my right hon. Friend the Member Friend the Member for Leicester, East. I refer hon. for Leicester, East is unfortunately not here? It is, dare I Members to the high-level working group report that say it, rolling out. Forces are at different stages of we published yesterday, which aims to get £540 million implementation and are being strongly supported by of efficiencies out of the system within the next three ACPO in taking up that four force pilot. My right hon. years—I have made a commitment that the police can Friend the Home Secretary is writing to police chiefs keep those efficiency savings to put into front-line services. and chairs to encourage them to adopt the four force Those efficiencies are being sought through better pilot in their local areas. procurement, for example. I think that it is madness There is a lot more that could be discussed, but time that we have 43 individual forces buying body armour. is pressing. Let me simply say that I hope that Members It is madness that we have 43 forces buying vehicles, will approve the grant today for £259 million extra for having air support, looking at forensics or getting IT. It next year. I hope that—dare I say it—that the Opposition is not a cut to combine those elements into one contract will support us in that commitment and will not renege to get the best value out of the buying power—it is an on it, whatever happens in any potential election. I efficiency that releases money that we can put into other believe that we have strong financial base for police services. funding, strong reductions in crime and strong police Similarly, the hon. Member for South-West Devon numbers. I accept, however, that specific issues need to mentioned back-office services. There are co-operations be addressed, which we will consider and reflect on. I and collaborations that we can do and we have considered commend the grant to the House. mandating some of them to get value out of the system. We can, particularly in smaller forces, get better use of Question put and agreed to. personnel, HR and a range of other matters by having Resolved, that back-office support without having formal mergers. That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2010-11 I put down a clear challenge yesterday on the question (HC 278), which was laid before this House on 20 January, be of overtime for police. We are spending an awful lot of approved. 367 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 368

Local Government Finance for the supporting people programme, the working neighbourhoods fund and the rural bus subsidy; and 4.33 pm specific revenue grants of £42.2 billion, which includes, for example, the dedicated schools grant. Every council The Secretary of State for Communities and Local will receive an increase in funding. Government (Mr. John Denham): I beg to move, This year’s settlement comes on the back of a 39 per That the Local Government Finance Report (England) 2010-11 cent. increase in real-terms funding in the decade up to (HC 280), which was laid before this House on 20 January, be 2007-08. In that decade, power and responsibility were approved. transferred to councils, giving them greater stability, freedoms and flexibilities. Almost £6 billion has been Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): With this we moved into such budgets with no strings attached. The shall discuss the following motion, on council tax: performance framework has been slimmed down from That the draft Council Tax Limitation (Maximum Amounts) 1,200 targets to fewer than 200. Next year, councils will (England) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on also gain responsibility for commissioning education 20 January, be approved. and training, which will be worth a further £7 billion. Mr. Denham: Before I come to the main body of my remarks, may I say that it was and is the intention that Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and My right hon. Friend mentions that councils are free to Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for spend their money with fewer strings attached, but does Stevenage (Barbara Follett), should reply to the debate? he expect councils to take more responsibility? Does he Timings in the House are uncertain and she will be have a view on Birmingham city council’s inability to dealing with an Adjournment debate in Westminster submit its accounts in such a way that the Audit Hall for half an hour. I hope that it will be acceptable to Commission is able to sign them off? The council has you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to the House if she had to waste £60,000 just to have the books re-audited replies to the debate—she has undertaken much of the to satisfy the Audit Commission. individual correspondence and meetings with local authorities and she might be in a good position to Mr. Denham: My hon. Friend raises an important respond to particular cases that are raised. point. We had occasion, before Christmas, to raise concerns with Birmingham city council, which, on its Before I discuss the good financial settlement that is own say so, had failed to use the working neighbourhoods on offer for councils again this year, I want to draw the fund money in a timely manner. It is the right direction House’s attention to the 2010-11 “Housing Revenue of travel to give freedoms to local authorities, but we Account Subsidy Determination” that the Government have to make it clear that with those freedoms and have issued today. It confirms that next year’s local flexibilities comes the responsibility to use public money authority average guideline rent increase will be set at well and wisely for local people. 3.1 per cent., not 6.1 per cent. as was previously agreed, because the Government believe that the previous increase The Government’s record on funding is one of real would not be fair or affordable for tenants. Those achievement and real confidence in local government. considerations have always been our priority, and that There has been real change on the ground, backed by will not change. What we have put in place this year will real investment. I suspect that this debate might not not mean steep rent increases for council tenants in the attract huge public attention across all the media, but it next few years. will be followed closely in council chambers across England. In this week, next week and the week after, The same concern about affordability has informed councillors will meet in town halls and civic centres to the decision that was announced by my hon. Friend in set council tax. They will be considering the coming November, that the Government were capping the police year and the years ahead. They will follow our debates authorities of Cheshire, Leicestershire and Warwickshire with interest, not least because of the looming election because of previous excessive increases. Cheshire and and the possible consequences for local councils and Leicestershire have accepted the budget caps that we council tax payers. have proposed, whereas Warwickshire exercised its right to challenge. After careful consideration, I have laid an This Government’s support for local government is order for the House’s approval to set Warwickshire a not in doubt. The settlement comes on top of a 39 per maximum budget requirement of £90,395,000 for 2010-11. cent. increase in real-terms funding that compares with The intention is to limit all three authorities to the the 7 per cent. real cut in the final four years of the equivalent of a 3 per cent. increase in council tax over previous Conservative Government. 2009-10 and 2010-11. No other capping decisions have I reject the claim in yesterday’s edition of The Daily been taken for 2010-11, but we will not hesitate to cap Telegraph from 35 Conservative council leaders that low excessive increases that have been set by individual council tax increases this year have nothing to do with authorities, if necessary. the Government. They said that they had Let me address the main subject of the debate—the “managed to keep taxes low in our authorities despite the efforts financial settlement for local government. This is the of John Denham and his department.” final year of the first ever three-year settlement, which Those councillors should be grateful. In January last involves an £8.6 billion increase over three years, with year, the Leader of the Opposition proposed cutting my an average increase of 4 per cent. over each of the three Department’s budget by £1 billion, of which it is certain years and of 4 per cent. again for the coming year. The that £240 million would have come from council budgets. increase for this year is made up of a 2.6 per cent. So those 35 local authority leaders should at least be increase of formula grant, bringing the total to £29 billion; grateful that I protected them from the policies of their a £5 billion area-based grant, which includes funding own political party. 369 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 370

Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): The Minister Mr. Denham: My hon. Friend may be aware that her is vaunting the significant amounts of additional money local authority has received an extra £18 million this that his Government have made available, but is he year. She makes a very valid point, but the reaction that aware that some councils are outliers, whose increases she describes is perhaps an inevitable part of human in cash per head can be counted in pennies? Richmond nature. There will always be more complaints from is a good example, with an increase of 87p per head. those who believe that they should have got more than Many councils, like Richmond or Kingston, have had there will be praise from those who have been protected to go deep into their pockets to fund primary school by the system. She is absolutely right to make that places because Government help has been so limited. observation. My firm belief is that not only in this year, The number of children affected is very significant. but in previous years, the Government have worked hard to get the balance right between the ceiling and the Mr. Denham: I do not agree that Government help floor, to ensure that the pace of change is reasonably has been limited. It is possible that when my hon. predictable and understandable by local authorities. Friend the Minister winds up, she will be able set out I was speaking about how I resisted the call of the how much Richmond has received over the years. However, Opposition last year to cut my Department’s grants to I acknowledge that there is an underlying point, and local authorities by several hundred million pounds. that it is an inescapable part of the settlement. Almost The councillors who wrote to The Daily Telegraph may inevitably, the funding formula that we have will reveal have been embarrassed by the truth, which is that the that some authorities are further from the formula councils that have loaded most burden on to council tax target than others. Each year, the grant settlement is payers have been Conservative. Of the 50 councils with designed to make progress towards that target, but we the highest increases in council tax over the first 10 years must have a floor system that regulates the rate of of this Government, around 30 are Conservative-controlled. change that takes place each year. Some authorities are Labour controls just five. affected by that, but it is very difficult to design a system that does not have some element of that sort. The current settlement means that we can expect the average band D council tax increase to fall to a 16-year Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): I realise low. Many councils have already indicated that they that we are moving towards target according to formula plan for modest council tax increases or none at all, funding, but is it right that my authority should lose including all eight London Labour councils, which have another £5 million this year because it is below target? committed to a council tax freeze while protecting That comes on top of the millions that we have lost front-line services. Our expectation this year follows last already. Wandsworth is to receive an additional year’s average increase of just 3 per cent., the lowest £51.653 million next year, and Kensington and Chelsea since 1994-95. £10.061 million. I put it to my hon. Friend that my That is good news for council tax payers from the constituents are some of the poorest in the country. Labour Government. What would they get from the Opposition? An apparently attractive but empty and Mr. Denham: The increase in Bolton is something like unfunded promise. On 30 September 2008 the right £13 million in the coming year. That is a significant hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) told the BBC amount of money, as my hon. Friend will recognise. that council tax would be frozen for two years under a The application of the funding formula requires a floor Conservative Government. The Conservative party press mechanism to regulate the pace of change towards the release of 29 September 2008 said that the cost would target that the formula produces. It has been widely be £500 million in the first year and £1 billion in discussed, and he is perfectly right to produce anomalies “subsequent years”. It said that that would be funded or examples that he thinks are unfair to his constituency. from cuts in advertising and consultancy budgets. However, I do not accept that they are anomalies, as the Latest costings show that the Opposition have seriously system for regulating the pace at which we move towards underestimated the cost. A two-year freeze starting this target is broadly agreed across the House. I am pleased year would cost £1.970 billion—£650 million in the first that his authority has been able to benefit this year from year, and £1.320 billion in the second year and every a significant amount of money. year after that. Even on the Opposition’s own figures there is a £470 million gap, so I wonder whether that is Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab) likely to happen. rose— On 7 January the Leader of the Opposition told Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind) rose— the BBC: “No, no we have a pledge to do that”— Mr. Denham: I shall take a question from my hon. the two-year freeze— Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, South-West “because we found the money to do that by cutting government (Dr. Starkey). I shall take an intervention from the hon. advertising and government consultancy.” Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling) later, after I have made a bit more progress. Asked by the BBC’s admirable Evan Davis: “Hang on, why don’t you cut the government advertising and Dr. Starkey: My hon. Friend talks about floors and other budgets in order to reduce the deficit, not council tax?”, ceilings. Does he agree that, although councils, including the Leader of the Opposition insisted that the freeze my own, are ready to complain about a ceiling if it would go ahead. So would it happen? Is it a promise, or means that they do not receive as much extra grant as merely another vague aspiration? Apparently it will go quickly as they might wish, they rarely complain about ahead. [Interruption.] Well, those taking part in council a floor, as that means that they do not lose grant as tax debates throughout the country need the answer quickly as they might fear? today. 371 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 372

Last Sunday, the shadow Chancellor had a different to explain what she cannot explain, which is how council use for cuts in advertising and consultancy. tax revaluation would be paid for. I shall carry on, “To reduce the deficit,” because we need to deal with more aspects of the he said, settlement. “we can move quickly on the advertising budget, the big government Mr. Pelling: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? consultancy budget”. Yesterday, asked by the BBC’s equally admirable Nick Mr. Denham: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, Robinson about cutting spending to cut the deficit, the because he has been asking for some time. hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) said: “We pointed to the advertising and consultancy budgets.” Mr. Pelling: The Secretary of State is clearly hitting Which is it? Cuts in advertising and consultancy to the target as regards the Conservative party’s rather soft reduce the deficit or to reduce council tax? It cannot be position on those issues, but, nevertheless, are not his both. The House and local councils need to hear some comments a real comment themselves on the relationship answers today before promises are made at local level. between central and local government? This Government There have been many candidates from Opposition have not released local government to pursue its own parties dropping leaflets through letterboxes over the financial affairs. The fact that national parties are talking past few weeks promising a freeze in council tax without about advertising in specific councils shows that local any explanation of how even part of it is to be funded. government is still far too dependent for its finances on national Government. Mr. Pelling: Will the Secretary of State give way? Mr. Denham: The hon. Gentleman might have welcomed Mr. Denham: In a moment. the extra £20 million in all grants that his local authority will receive next year. The fact is that over several years The Opposition’s council tax plans are, as The Observer there has been a process of devolving power to local said on Sunday, “mired in confusion”. government, of reducing ring-fencing and targets and We also need to know when the freeze will start. If it of transferring responsibilities to local government—and does not start until next year, there is another problem. we will continue to make progress in that direction. I As the pre-Budget report makes clear, advertising and shall say more about that in a moment. consultancy will be cut by this Government by £650 million in 2012-13 as part of our plan to halve the Paddy Tipping (Sherwood) (Lab): Will my right hon. deficit, so there is no money in the coffers to pay for the Friend give way? second year of the proposed council tax freeze. There is at least a £1.120 billion black hole in the Opposition’s Mr. Denham: I shall, but then I must make some local government spending plans in the first two years, progress, because I know that a number of hon. Members and the same amount every year after that. wish to speak.

Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): The right hon. Paddy Tipping: What advice would the Secretary of Gentleman is doing a great job of setting out to the State give to Tory-run Nottinghamshire county council, public the fact that we will help councils freeze council which is determined not to increase its council tax and tax, whereas his Government will not. Perhaps he can told me that it could do so because it was going to explain whether it is his proposal to go ahead with receive an increased grant from a forthcoming Tory another revaluation shortly. Government—if there were one?

Mr. Denham: We have no plans or preparations for a Mr. Denham: I would say to that county council that revaluation of council tax. there is clearly no source of money to pay for the promises, which are being made throughout the country, Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): What of a council tax freeze. We saw the same situation with about the database? married man’s tax allowance at the weekend with spending— Mr. Denham: Oh, the database! A standard, routine contract is put out to tender every few years to update Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps the Secretary the valuation database in the normal way; that has of State could now concentrate on the proposals that nothing to do with council tax revaluation. I wrote to the Government are putting forward. the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening) after she claimed in the Sunday Express that the database was Mr. Denham: You have been characteristically generous, evidence of secret plans for a revaluation of council tax. Madam Deputy Speaker, and I shall make progress. She never replied to my letter, and I am surprised that We are happy to be judged on our record of steadily the Opposition continue to raise the issue. increasing investment and greater freedoms. This settlement, which underpins our ambitious vision for local government, Justine Greening: Will the right hon. Gentleman give is how we will not only protect but continue to improve way? local public services, despite the tighter financial climate. Local government has a good record on making efficiency Mr. Denham: No, because I am just going to make savings, but the truth is that the really hard challenges the point—[Interruption.] The hon. Lady had the have still not been tackled consistently in every council opportunity to answer, so I shall make some progress and in every area. Local people will rightly be intolerant on the statement—[Interruption.] She had an opportunity if they are told by their council that front-line services 373 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 374

[Mr. Denham] the powers that they need to act decisively on behalf of local residents, including the powers to scrutinise, influence will be cut when it has not taken the tough decisions to and shape other services. In future, this means that local introduce shared services, sharing senior staff with other government will not just be overseeing its own services; authorities, primary care trusts or other providers, or in addition, councillors will be able to challenge how all made the best use of public assets. local services are delivered, regardless of the provider. The new task force that I have established, led by As the pre-Budget report confirmed, Total Place is not Steve Bullock, the mayor of Lewisham, and Richard just a direction of travel but the future of local government Leese, the leader of Manchester city council, will report and local public services under a Labour Government. by the end of the month on how well-led authorities can The Opposition may make a rhetorical commitment to protect and improve services while meeting the new Total Place, but we have shown in past debates where demands for greater efficiency. their polices will lead: a postcode lottery as entitlements and inspection are abandoned, and two-tier “Ryanair” Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) councils providing a most basic service and leaving only (Con): The Secretary of State will realise that for many those who can afford to pay able to access a decent local authorities one of the biggest clouds on the horizon service. That is not the kind of localism that I want is the census in 2011. Many of us, particularly those of to see. us in inner-city boroughs, recognise that there are great This is a good funding settlement. We have delivered concerns about the rigour with which the census is average increases of 4 per cent., giving councils scope being put in place, and that that will have a major not only to keep council tax down but to deliver the impact on the grants that are made not just this year but crucial services on which local residents rely. I think I for some years to come. The issue applies to hon. have shown that some of the promises being made by Members from all parts of the House. Will he explain the Conservatives are unfunded and cannot be believed, what the Department is doing to ensure that the census and they need to be exposed as such. is as rigorous as possible in order to ensure that there is Madam Deputy Speaker: I now have to announce the a fair division of the spoils for many years to come? results of Divisions deferred from a previous day. On the motion relating to EU enlargement strategy, the Mr. Denham: The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly Ayes were 403 and the Noes were 20, so the Question fair point. Usually in this annual debate, the concern is was agreed to. On the motion relating to infrastructure that population figures are out of date, as opposed to planning, the Ayes were 231 and the Noes were 196, so about to be updated. The census is therefore enormously the Question was agreed to. On the motion relating to important, as is the ongoing work, on which the Office financial management, the Ayes were 230 and the Noes for National Statistics is consulting, about better ways were 202, so the Question was agreed to. of capturing more rapid short-term changes in population [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s of the sort that we saw in the middle of the last decade. debates.] His point is well taken and well made, but I assure him that everybody concerned with the census is working 4.58 pm enormously hard to ensure that it produces the accurate Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): I thank the Secretary basis on which future local government projections can of State for outlining the Government’s proposals on be carried out. local government finance. I think that we all accept that the formula as it stands is extremely complicated. When Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend join me in encouraging Local Government, the hon. Member for Stevenage the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Barbara Follett), outlined it in this Chamber at the end (Mr. Field) to join the London Regional Select Committee, of last year, there was some humour in the fact that the because we are engaging in an in-depth study on the guide that now goes with the formula claims to replace census, working with various Departments, and we are the previous plain-English-speaking guide. Local councils missing representation from the Opposition Benches? find themselves having to deal with an incredibly complicated formula. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. We are certainly not The three-year local government finance settlement straying into the subject of Regional Select Committees. has been important for councils, and we recognise that it is important for them to be able to plan ahead. Mr. Denham: Having set out the challenge to local However, this is the last of the three years, and the government, whereby we need to ensure that every Government have effectively delayed—many people would taxpayer’s pound works as hard it can, I should say that suspect cancelled—the comprehensive spending review, it is obviously important that the Government support which could have given councils the framework for the local councils in making the necessary changes. That is next three years and an idea of what funding there may why, with local authorities, this Labour Government be. We now seem unlikely to get that before the election. have pioneered the Total Place initiative, which looks at If I am wrong about that, I am sure that the Secretary all public service spending in each area and how it can of State will intervene. [Interruption.] He indicates that best be used, together with local council and councils, it is not in his hands; it will be worrying for local with their democratic mandate, to ensure that local government to know that he is not pressing to have services respond to local needs. more certainty in future. I welcome the Opposition’s recent belated recognition This is an important matter. It is not just councils that the extension of further scrutiny of health and that need to understand the funding regime under which other public services is needed to equip councils with they will be operating. As the Secretary of State clearly 375 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 376 demonstrated, it is important for families and local what is going to happen if the British public are unlucky communities to understand the level of council tax and enough to face this Government being in power after how the local government finance settlement could the next election. mean changes in their council tax bills, particularly as we are possibly still in the deepest, longest recession in Dr. Starkey: Will the hon. Lady give way? many years. Justine Greening: No, I am not going to give way—not Hazel Blears (Salford) (Lab): The hon. Lady has today, thank you. started her contribution with a lot of talk about certainty. What we need is a new approach to local government. I am sure that she would welcome my excellent Labour We need an approach of localism that will move away council’s decision to give our community certainty with from the trend that councils have seen under this a council tax freeze. She is right that certainty is important Government, which is more micromanagement, more for families and councils, so will she tell us here and now reporting upwards, less ability to decide local priorities when her council tax freeze will start, when it will end and more top-down diktat from Westminster. What and how it will be paid for? The country and the public people actually want in their local communities across have a right to know. Britain is the chance for their local council to spend money on their local priorities, not on the priorities that Justine Greening: We have already published all those are so often set by the Secretary of State. data. I am sure that it is wonderful for Ministers to try to pick holes in them, but in fact they seem to be taking Ms Gisela Stuart: I would be grateful if the hon. some of our suggestions on clamping down on waste. Lady helped me. She said that the data on the council Having only a few months ago challenged us by saying tax freeze have all been published, but I am at a loss as that it was a case of investment versus cuts, they now to when the freeze will start—I may have missed her seem to accept that we need to trim back public expenditure. telling us that. Will she say very simply, to help a simple person, when the promised Tory council tax freeze will Mr. Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich, West) (Lab/Co-op): start? Will the hon. Lady give way? Justine Greening: We have always said that it would Justine Greening: I will not, actually. I have not even start in the first full financial year after the election. quite finished dealing with the intervention by the right hon. Member for Salford (Hazel Blears). As she said, Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I please bring there is a genuine appetite for a council tax freeze. It is the House back to order? We are discussing the just a shame that her party’s Government cannot recognise Government’s proposals. that. We want to help local government deliver that, but her party wants to undermine it. Justine Greening: That is very helpful, Madam Deputy There was one question that I did not get to put to Speaker. It is interesting that Government Back Benchers the Secretary of State. He would not rule out the are pressing the Opposition on when a policy will start, revaluation that is coming down the track and could but will not admit when the next election will be. mean families paying hundreds of pounds extra. Pursuing that line of argument is disingenuous. [Interruption.] Is he ruling it out? He says that there are There is no doubt that council tax will be one of the no plans, but we have all heard the statement “There are most important things for people in today’s debate. The currently no plans” in the past when we have known bottom line is that whatever the Secretary of State says that there were. Preparation for the revaluation is well about funding for councils across the country, under under way, and the Secretary of State’s own local Labour, council tax doubled from 1998-99. In fact, government body, the Labour group of the Local people are being charged £14 billion a year more in Government Association, in its document “Putting Fairness council tax than when Labour came to power. That is First”, does not just talk about a revaluation but states real money taken out of people’s pockets that they that on top of that: cannot spend on what they otherwise would have liked. “At the very least, the council tax needs rebanding. The addition The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and of more bands at both the top and the bottom of the scale will Local Government, the hon. Member for Stevenage help to make it a more genuinely progressive tax”. (Barbara Follett), came to the Chamber before Christmas [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.] We seem to be getting and claimed that a 3 per cent. settlement—a 3 per cent. messages from Labour Back Benchers—perhaps the increase—was somehow reason for celebration among Secretary of State can confirm this—that Labour wants people who were, by and large, getting no pay rise in the to continue adding bands and pushing up council tax private sector. If that 3 per cent. increase goes through, for people across the country. it will add £42 to the bill of an average band D home and push bills to more than £120 per month. Mr. Denham: I repeat to the hon. Lady what I said earlier. We have no plans, and we have made no Ms Buck: Does the hon. Lady share my concern that preparations, for a revaluation. With respect, she should while she is focusing on council tax—I agree that nobody really stop claiming that we have. We have said that wants to pay more tax than they have to—there is a risk often, and the constant repetition of something that is that we are missing the impact of charges? My local not true does not make it true. authority, Westminster, is in the process of raising an additional £7 million from parking charges alone, and it Justine Greening: People reading Hansard tomorrow is putting up meals on wheels charges by 10 per cent. will see from that response that there is no ruling out of and introducing a new charge of £20 for the disposal of a revaluation or of more bands. We all know exactly bulky items, which leads directly to fly-tipping. Of 377 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 378

[Ms Karen Buck] Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady has clearly decided that at present she will not give way to course, those costs fall directly on people to whom no anyone. rebate is available, with all kinds of unintended consequences for their purses. Justine Greening: I am trying to respond to the Minister. We have some real concerns about business rates and we Justine Greening: The Housing Minister has left the are worried that if Ministers go ahead with the revaluation Chamber, but I propose that the hon. Lady talks to they have planned it will destabilise one of the key him. Only last year he was saying that only one in five revenues for councils— councils were actually charging for the services that they could charge for. The pressure for councils to Mr. Denham: Can the hon. Lady be clear that she is charge is coming from her Government, not from councils. suggesting, as she did in questions last week, that the Councils across the country are being asked to pay for revaluation should not go ahead, knowing as she does services and to fund more and more mandates from that 60 per cent. of businesses would see an average of a national Government without being given the money to £770 rate increase from April? do so. They have had one part-funded initiative after Justine Greening: The Secretary of State fails to another. recognise that the decrease for those companies is funded I want to return to council tax, because there are by increases for other companies. If the Government people in this country who have been unable to afford had looked at the impact assessment of whether those council tax increases. A typical pensioner couple, for companies could afford the increase, he would be on example, now pays £685 more a year on a band D stronger ground. The reality is that those getting the property than they paid in 1997-98. In fact, only half of biggest rises far outweigh the number getting the biggest eligible pensioners claim the council tax benefit to which decreases. In eight out of nine English regions, more they are entitled. Ministers ought to focus on those companies will see a 20 per cent.-plus rise than will see a issues. The Secretary of State was reluctant to answer 20 per cent. fall. The Secretary of State cannot claim any of my questions, but if we have another term of that the Government are pursuing a strong policy when Labour in office, households across the country will see they have not even bothered to look at how the 40 per even more council tax increases coming down the track, cent. of companies that face a rise will manage to pay it. because of more bands and a revaluation. Ministers If the Government’s calculations are wrong—not that never rule the latter out, because it is clearly going to they particularly have any—business rate income could happen, which is why we need a council tax freeze. be destabilised. Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): It would be better to allow all companies to enjoy the The hon. Lady is doing a good job of highlighting the minor reduction that they would all get from the inflationary problems with the council tax, which since its invention decrease that would have resulted from the multiplier, has increased at above inflation each year. How can she had the revaluation not gone ahead. Instead of playing reconcile all these problems with the council tax while party politics, the Secretary of State should get out to defending its existence to the hilt? the regions that will see the biggest losers and talk to companies about how they will afford to pay. Those Justine Greening: I guess that we would all love to increases alone could stifle the recovery before it gets know whether the Liberal Democrats would go ahead going. with their local income tax policy—[HON.MEMBERS: “Yes.”] Well, it was not exactly popular at the last Dr. Iddon: In Bolton, the regional development agency election, so that is probably good news for many hon. has been very helpful to local companies. This evening, Members. MPs from the north-west have been invited to a meeting of the Northwest Development Agency. What can I tell It is not only council tax rates that have been going the agency about the likelihood that it will still exist in through the roof under Labour. One of our biggest the unlikely event that the hon. Lady’s party wins power concerns is that this local government finance settlement on6May? is principally underpinned by receipts from business rates. The Government are about to press on with a Justine Greening: We have said that it will be up to business rate revaluation, which could fundamentally local authorities and local regions to decide whether destabilise the main source of revenue for local councils their regional development agency has been effective. In and their services— some parts of the country, the feedback is that the agency has been effective, but in others it has not. It Mr. Denham: Will the hon. Lady give way? should be down to local areas to decide how they want Justine Greening: No, I wish to make some progress. to organise regeneration. That revaluation comes on top of the business rate rises Hazel Blears: The hon. Lady’s party has said that it that have been seen across the country, at a time when would fund the council tax freeze partly by abolishing local companies can ill afford them— unelected regional tiers of government, so she has to be Mr. Denham: Will the hon. Lady give way? straightforward and honest. Will she fund the council tax freeze by abolishing excellent bodies such as the Justine Greening: No, I will not give way. Northwest Development Agency? Again, we have a right to know. Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Will the hon. Lady give way to me? Justine Greening: The right hon. Lady has completely misunderstood the funding for the council tax freeze. Justine Greening: No, I really must make some progress— She has even, within 10 minutes, contradicted the Secretary 379 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 380 of State when he said that, apparently, he thinks that to the end of its ability to take additional taxation there is not enough in our advertising budget for our increases? Given that she is a Member of Parliament for policy, which of course there is. a south London constituency, does she sympathise with some businesses that feel that it is a little unfair that the Mr. Pelling: Will the hon. Lady give way? supplementary business rate that they are paying goes Justine Greening: So our policy is absolutely funded. into Crossrail? There might be important things to do in south London communities using some of that Mr. Pelling: Will the hon. Lady give way? supplementary business rate. Justine Greening: That is one of the reasons we would urge Ministers to match our council tax freeze, instead Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman raises some of saying that they want to see council tax raised when interesting points. The first was about council tax and people can least afford it. the pressures to increase it further. It should be up to The settlement is part of a broader failure by the local residents to decide whether council tax rises are Government to work with local authorities. Under the affordable. That is one of the reasons Conservative Government, they have faced extra burdens, not just Members have talked about providing the ability for from top-down diktat, but because they have been able local residents to hold a referendum if they believe that to spend less of their money as they would have wanted. council tax rises are unaffordable. That is one of the reasons for the pressures on council The hon. Gentleman also raised a point about Crossrail tax. In 1996-97, 22 per cent. of local government revenue and supplementary business rates. The Government expenditure was financed through council tax, but by recently brought through the Business Rate Supplements 2006-07, that had risen to 26 per cent. Act 2009, about which we expressed the concern, when it passed through the House, that it could lead to extra Mr. Pelling: Will the hon. Lady give way at that burdens on companies. So I share his concerns about point? the concept of supplementary business rates—in fact, Justine Greening: Councils are under so much pressure we have said that we want councils to be able to go in a that they are being pressed to go out to their local different direction. We want to give them the power to communities and fund services by raising council tax. levy a business rate discount, rather than a supplement. Local authorities now have a raft of extra measures to We need to give councils the ability locally to help deliver that have never been properly funded. In fact, regenerate their local economies, and I will come later there is a live one here in London on concessionary bus to some of the incentives that we would like to see. fares—[Laughter.] I am sure that many Labour Members As I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises find that entertaining—[Laughter.] from his own local council in Croydon, councils currently Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. spend far too much time micro-managing Government initiatives and not enough time being able to tailor what Justine Greening: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. they are doing locally to local community priorities. In That is of concern to many London councils, which fact, 36 out of 52 revenue grants for local authorities face a shortfall of on average £1 million per council are ring-fenced, so it is simply not correct to say that because the Transport Secretary has failed to— local authorities are being given the freedom that they need to deliver for their local communities as well as Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s they can. We would very much like the Government to Bush) (Lab): On a point of order, Madam Deputy move away from ring-fencing grants and towards giving Speaker. The hon. Member for Croydon, Central councils more freedom to deliver on local priorities as (Mr. Pelling) was on the Conservative Benches a little they see fit. while ago—as a result he increased the number of Conservative Back Benchers by 50 per cent.—but he is Only today we heard the Prime Minister talking a now on the Labour Benches. I think that he ought to be good game, but the reality for local councils is that they heard at some point. I do not know where he is going to do not see that change happening on the ground. As I go next. mentioned to the hon. Gentleman, there is very little incentive in the funding formula for councils to deliver Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. That is not a point of for their local authorities. Total Place has started to order for the Chair, and the hon. Member for Croydon, provide some of the fact base, as it were, for councils to Central (Mr. Pelling) is in fact an independent Member be able to do so, but we should not kid ourselves. We are of the House. at the beginning of a long road towards councils being Justine Greening: If the hon. Member for Croydon, able to get out there and not just work with other local Central (Mr. Pelling) wants to intervene, I will be delighted providers, such as the NHS and the police, and with the to give way. Department for Work and Pensions, but, more broadly, deliver value for money for their residents. Mr. Pelling: I am sure that the hon. Lady simply could not see or hear me—that is why I came across to Mr. Bailey: I have listened with interest to the hon. the Labour Benches. I am grateful to her for giving way. Lady’s arguments. In the absence of ring-fencing, could May I compliment her on dealing with the shells that she tell me whether a potential Conservative Government have been dropped by some of the heavyweights who would allow local authorities to raise their council tax have decided to take part in this debate and have a go at to any level, without any action being taken? her? May I ask her two questions about the points that she has raised? She mentioned the heavy burden of Justine Greening: I have just said what we would hope local government taxation, and it is welcome that any to do on council tax. We want to give local communities incoming Conservative Government would freeze the the ability to set the cap. That should not be done in tax. Does she feel that perhaps the council tax has come Whitehall. If local communities decide that a proposed 381 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 382

[Justine Greening] this Friday Opposition Front Benchers will support my private Member’s Bill, the Local Authorities (Overview rise is unaffordable, they should be able to stop it. I and Scrutiny) Bill? understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but it shows the difference between our approach, which is to trust Justine Greening: We are very supportive of moves to local communities and local authorities to get on with ensure that transparency is developed and improved in running their own lives, and that of the Government, councils. We think that that is the best way to enable who take a top-down approach the whole time. local residents to hold their local authorities to account. Mr. Bailey: Will the hon. Lady give way? In place of the local government finance settlement approach that we heard about from the Secretary of Justine Greening: No, I am going to make some more State, we want local communities and local authorities progress. I am conscious of the time and the fact that to be given more power to deliver their priorities on the other Members no doubt want to express their views ground. We want local residents to be able to cap their and represent their constituents. council tax if they think that that is their priority, rather The issue is not just about giving local people more than having Ministers do it whether it is or not. In the authority to hold their local councils to account on earlier debate, which you were here for, Madam Deputy council tax rises. We also need to put in place incentives, Speaker, a variety of hon. Members complained about so that local authorities can benefit when they take the fact that their police authorities had been capped, as good decisions on providing more homes for local local people were perfectly happy to pay more—their people. Many local councils across England and Wales priority was to see more police on their streets. We think would say that they are concerned at the lack of house that that is the right way to go: to give local people the building that has taken place, but they have had to work choice, rather than have it taken away. within a framework of top-down targets that local Whatever the Prime Minister says this week, councils communities have rejected. have nothing new to look forward to from the Secretary Mr. Slaughter: It is wonderful to hear an Opposition of State or from the Minister. It is more of the same Front-Bench spokesperson, however sincerely or not, when we look through this local government finance talking about house building. Will the hon. Lady take settlement. There is continued top-down ring-fencing of this opportunity to condemn Hammersmith and Fulham money that should be spent on residents’ priorities, council, which is planning to demolish 3,500 good-quality rather than Whitehall priorities. There is a continued council homes? lack of incentives for councils to develop their local communities and economies. There is continued pressure Justine Greening rose— on council tax to rise, when family finances are stretched to the limit, because councils are asked to take up, on Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I remind hon. behalf of Whitehall, so many unfunded initiatives. There Members that we are now discussing local government is continued micro-management and inspection from finance? That is the matter under consideration in this above, which costs money that could otherwise go into debate. front-line services. Justine Greening: Thank you very much, Madam The bottom line is that we need to give councils the Deputy Speaker. I was making the point that part of freedom that they crave to deliver better services and the funding settlement that we are talking about should better value, and to deliver on the priorities that matter reward local councils when they develop their local most to their local communities. However, as we have communities by providing new homes. We would also heard today, for that to happen, we will need a change like local councils to have incentives, so that they are of Government—it will not happen under this one. rewarded for doing a good job in developing their local economies and generating local jobs. That is why we 5.27 pm have talked about allowing them to keep the gain from business rates that they make when they do a good job Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): of bringing new companies and new industry into their I want to make a few observations and I will try to be local areas. brief because I know that many hon. Friends wish to Finally, it is time to say that local authorities with speak. Like other hon. Members, before I was a Member local responsibilities need to be more accountable. of Parliament, I was the Labour leader of a council Authorities such as Windsor are already being far more under a Conservative Government. I can attest that the transparent, as is the Mayor of London, putting all experience under this Government, with their attitude spend over £1,000 out for public scrutiny. We would like to local government, although there are some things other councils to follow that measure. Indeed, I am sure that I criticise them for, is light years away from the that when the Minister wraps up, she will say that she, experience of council leaders under the previous too, would like that—I am guessing that she would not Conservative regime. It attempted to set the budget of want to go against increased transparency. We certainly every council in this country, a Stalinist exercise that want local councils to have increased transparency for has never been exceeded and that, I hope, will never be their residents, because it is the best way to create an emulated by any Government, and that is not to mention environment in which councils can not only have more the gerrymandering of the grant system. That needs to power to deliver on local priorities, but be better held be said. I know I am of an age that means that I perhaps accountable by their local residents in doing so. have a longer memory than the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening), but take it from me: this Government Mr. David Chaytor (Bury, North) (Lab): In view of are in a completely different, and much better league, as the hon. Lady’s comments about transparency and regards local government and the attitude of central accountability, can she give an absolute assurance that Government to local government. Indeed I commend 383 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 384 the steps that the Secretary of State has taken to move 20 years out of date. Are we going to wait for them to the balance further towards local government, although become 100 years out of date before somebody dares to he still has a long way to go. carry out a revaluation or are we going to do the I want to make a number of remarks following the sensible thing, which is completely to change the basis hon. Lady’s speech. The way in which her hon. Friends— of local government taxation? apart from the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), my fellow member of the Select Committee Dr. Starkey: As I am the Chair of a Select Committee on Communities and Local Government—deserted the and not a Minister, I can say what I feel on this matter. Chamber and left her in an acre of empty Green Benches If we continue to have a property tax—I believe that we is distressing. I guess that they have done that because, should—we need to revalue relatively frequently; otherwise, like me, they were somewhat distressed by the innumeracy it becomes distorted. Then, as the hon. Gentleman says, that she demonstrated, and her lack of understanding if we make the changes, those who gain will gain a great of local government finance. That is incredibly distressing deal and those who lose will lose a great deal. I am in someone who wishes to become one of the Ministers personally in favour of such revaluation. in charge of it. First, we are not talking about the national non-domestic Dr. Whitehead: Will my hon. Friend reflect on the rate, which is not relevant, but about the system of local consequences for balancing of having a freeze on council government finance as it relates to the council tax. The tax? What, for example, might be the consequence in hon. Lady must know that revaluation, unless each year 3 of the freeze, if it were imposed without replacing individual council chooses to use it as an excuse for the money cumulatively lost through council tax, for increasing the total council tax take in their area, does central Government funding, especially if the figures not mean that everybody’s bill goes up; it means that were not entirely right? Unless central funding took some people’s bills go up and some people’s go down. It over, would not the likely outcome be a huge avalanche is absolutely indefensible for her to continue in this way: of council tax rises in year 3, thereby decreasing still either she does not understand it, or she is continuing to further the ability of local authorities to raise their own state something that she knows is not accurate. finance?

Justine Greening: We have already had a revaluation Dr. Starkey: Absolutely. My hon. Friend is a great in Wales, which did raise more council tax, so the hon. expert on local government finance and I entirely agree Lady should look at that example to see why we should with him. What he said suggests that any Opposition be concerned about revaluation. proposing such a policy do not really think that they are ever going to come to power, since they would still be in power when such an enormous hike occurred, thereby Dr. Starkey: The hon. Lady should look at the data becoming incredibly unpopular. she cites. The Welsh Assembly—it believe it was my party, but I am not making an excuse for it—took There are other reasons why I believe the Opposition advantage of the revaluation hugely to increase the should reconsider their policy. I say this simply because total take. The bills went up, because it decided to I would not want my hon. Friend the Minister in any increase the amount of money raised. I am distressed to way to be tempted to take over such a policy from the have to explain this to the hon. Lady, but that is how the Opposition. First, the whole basis of the hon. Lady’s system works. As a former chair of finance, I know the arguments rests on the supposition that the council tax way the system works. A council decides how much is itself a problem. The hon. Member for Falmouth and money it needs to raise from council tax in order to fill Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) made the point that I the gap between grant income, charge income and what was intending to make myself, namely that the council it takes from the reserves. It decides on the total amount tax was introduced by the Conservative Government it wishes to raise and then it turns to the city treasurer after their disastrous introduction of the poll tax. They and says, “Looking at our local tax base, given the could not go back to the rates, which in my view is what people we have in each band and so on, how much do they should have done, so they opted for a poor relative we have to increase band D council tax to raise the of the rates. requisite amount of money?” It follows that if there is a At least the rates had the advantage of being relatively revaluation, unless the council decides it wants to increase progressive. It is not a hard and fast rule, but on the the amount raised, some people’s bills will go up and whole the bigger the property in which people live, the others’ will go down. The Welsh Assembly example, better off they are, and the bigger the property in which cited all the time by Conservative Members, is not an they live, the more they will pay in rates. It is also true example of revaluation leading to bills going up; it is an that the bigger the property in which they live, the more example of an elected council or assembly choosing to they will pay in council tax, but because council tax is increase the total take and, of course, everybody’s bills banded rather than being a continuous system like the going up. It has nothing to do with revaluation. rating system, the difference between what is paid by someone living in a small house and what is paid by Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I someone living in a big house is nowhere near as great share the hon. Lady’s experience of being a council under the rating system as under the council tax system. leader under the Conservatives, so I can certainly The council tax is a much less progressive tax; indeed, it corroborate what she said about that. Is not one of the verges on the regressive. problems with revaluation that the longer it is left, the If the hon. Lady and her party are truly worried more out of kilter it gets, so that when the resultant about the burden that the council tax places on low and rises inevitably come, they are even bigger for the losers middle-income households, there is a simple way of in the system? We have waited 20 years, so values are dealing with that. Increasing the number of bands 385 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 386

[Dr. Starkey] Julia Goldsworthy: My hon. Friend is right: that is an odd paradox. One would have thought that any incoming would increase the burden on those in big houses and council would have been focused on meeting the needs on big incomes, and—since the total amount to be of the people who had elected it, rather than on cutting raised would remain the same—it would reduce the services to them. burden on low and middle-income households. I suggest Let me speak a little more widely about some of the that she consider that simple method, which, once challenges councils have faced over the past three years, introduced, would perpetuate the improvement in which is the period the settlement has covered. Councils progressivity from year to year without the need for have been feeling the pinch. The credit crunch has had further changes. an impact not only in terms of putting pressure on the Secondly, I want to deal with the proposal that some services that they have to deliver—if there are more authorities’ council tax should be frozen. The Opposition vulnerable people, councils face increased pressures in appear to be suggesting that a council that proposed to trying to meet their needs—but in terms of the fees and increase its council tax next year by 2.5 per cent. or less charges they collect. They have already been feeling the would receive a lump sum of 2.5 per cent. from the squeeze, therefore, as the Minister for Housing Conservative Government, in the ghastly event of their acknowledged last year when he said this was a tight being elected. That is essentially adding to the Government settlement. It would therefore be unfair to say that grant system, but in a way that is not transparent and is councils are in a luxurious position, given everything in no way related to need. Effectively, it means giving else that has been going on in the wider economy. money to councils if they are able to keep their council tax at 2.5 per cent. or below. The Secretary of State rightly highlighted in his speech his concern about the impact rent increases might have Mr. Speaker: Order. In the short time for which I have on council tenants, and the impact of council tax rises been in the Chair, the hon. Lady has expressed herself on council tax payers, but we must also remember that with great force and eloquence on the subject of the there are huge pressures on councils, which in turn has policy of the Opposition. I have just looked at the terms an impact on the services they provide to vulnerable of the main business. We are supposed to be debating people. A number of terrible stories have been reported the question of whether to approve the Local Government in the media recently, not least the case in Edlington. Finance Report (England) 2010-11 and the draft Council The knock-on effect of that case and the baby P case Tax Limitation (Maximum Amounts) (England) has created a massive pressure on authorities’ services. I Order 2010. I think that further ruminations on the know from talking to people delivering children’s services policy of the Opposition would probably be outwith in my own local authority in Cornwall that they have our scope, however enjoyable or stimulating they might resulted in a massive increase in referrals, which they be for the hon. Lady. have to deal with, and they have also had a very negative Dr. Starkey: Far be it from me to complain about impact on staff morale and turnover. Therefore, a lot of your spoiling my fun, Mr. Speaker. I shall save the councils have fewer staff trying to deal with an increased remainder of my interesting analysis for other occasions. burden. It looks as though those pressures will increase I believe that the House has got the gist of my view. The in the future, because the Government’s proposals to suggestions that were advanced at some length by the give councils the responsibility for delivering free personal hon. Member for Putney were indeed risible, and I am care to people with high levels of need living at home is not surprised that most of her hon. Friends left the a cause for concern to a lot of councils. They believe Chamber in order not to subject themselves to her that they are being asked to part-fund that by savings speech. that have already been accounted for, or that they may not be able to deliver that care. This is part of a long 5.39 pm history of the Government giving councils responsibilities for something that the Government then fail to deliver Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): on properly, such as concessionary bus fares and free I welcome the opportunity to discuss the settlement. swimming. The delivery of personal care will be another When I saw that the Secretary of State in his place I example of councils finding that their resources will be thought that his presence might raise the tone of the stretched further to cover more responsibilities, debate, but so far it has not really done so, although I while they are not necessarily given the resources to deal am sure that the hordes of Labour Members sitting with that. opposite me have contributions to make. The debate concerns the third year of a three-year I want to emphasise, too, that we face uncertainty. settlement. Notwithstanding the banter that we have The Secretary of State made great play of the certainty heard, it contains nothing particularly controversial. that his Government had given to local councils through Many councils were very happy to have a three-year the three-year funding settlement, but he said absolutely settlement. It has been delivered according to plan, and nothing about what will happen in the next financial given what has been going on in the wider economy, I year—not the one that has been dealt with by the think that a number of them were grateful for the settlement, but the subsequent one. Basically, councils stability that it offered. are completely in the dark about what kind of situation they will be operating in. The spending review was due Mr. Heath: We would have been very pleased to have last summer, and we do not now know when it will had that stability in Somerset, were it not for the incoming appear, but it certainly does not look as though it will Conservative county council deciding that an increase do so until after the election. The closest we got to in the money from the Government was a signal for it to having any information about that was in the pre-Budget cut massively the services it provided to Somerset residents. report, when the Chancellor said that public spending I cannot quite work out that paradox. as a whole would be frozen between 2011-12 and 2014-15. 387 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 388

The Institute for Fiscal Studies has today published Mr. Pelling: The hon. Lady talks about uncertainty. its “Green Budget”, in which it tries to tease out some If the Liberal Democrats had leverage over an incoming of the implications of a real-terms freeze for Departments Government in a hung Parliament—[Interruption.] Yo u that have not been singled out by any party for protection. have no reason to smile, because that is a possibility. In The following quote from the summary to chapter 8 of such a circumstances, what timetable would you have the “Green Budget” points out that for introducing a local income tax? “spending on debt interest, social security and other ‘annually managed expenditure’ is likely to grow in real terms. Keeping to Julia Goldsworthy: I will come to that, but the point I these overall spending plans would therefore require deep cuts in am trying to make is that this situation is urgent. ‘departmental expenditure limits’ (DELs)—Whitehall spending Council tax payers will end up with council tax bill on public services and administration”. increases every year even though services are being It also said that the Government had reduced—that already occurs, but the extent of it will “promised to ‘protect’ spending on priority areas, including health, be more extreme. On the kind of extrapolations that the schools and overseas aid”. IFS has produced, there will be massive increases in Once one takes out the protection of those areas and council tax in return for massive cuts in local services. the increases in expenditure, the implication is real-terms That will test the local government finance arrangements cuts. The book says to breaking point. “These other areas—including defence, higher education, transport We already have a system of gearing, which means and housing”— that 75 per cent. of what councils spend is funded and, of course, local government— through central Government grants. That makes things “would likely see their budgets cut by 12.9 per cent.”— difficult, but the situation will get harder. in real terms— Dr. Whitehead: I congratulate the hon. Lady on her “on average over the two years or by £25.8 billion”. relatively numerate presentation, in comparison with The book also extrapolated the Conservatives plans what was said by certain people sitting elsewhere in the on ring-fencing over the four years, saying that Chamber. Would she care to speculate on the result for “if the Conservatives’ plan to protect aid and the NHS were gearing of artificially holding down possible national combined with the more ambitious tightening plan implied by increases in council tax so that a cumulative additional their proposed fiscal targets”— amount of central Government grant would have to go that sounds like that might be slipping a bit— in to make up the gap and, thus, keep the total stable? “then the cuts in their unprotected areas could be more like As she has suggested, that would increase gearing still 22.8 per cent. or £57.1 billion by 2014-15.” further over the years of that increase. So I do not understand why anyone is crowing about this amazingly “stable” settlement, given that it appears Julia Goldsworthy: I shall be coming to that point that next year we are about to disappear off the edge of later, but basically the Conservative proposals would a cliff and nobody is prepared to talk about what that have the effect of disproportionately benefiting the people actually means for services that have not explicitly been in the best position. They would make it more unfair. protected. We are talking about 3 per cent. real-terms There are Conservative-run and Conservative-led councils, cuts every year. By not coming clean and giving us an such as my own, that are unable to deliver the council indication about this in a spending report, the Government tax freeze that their national party is asking them to. are taking away from councils time to plan what they Those proposals would perpetuate those unfairnesses need to do and what services they need to prioritise. If and could result in the system being even more centralised. councils had more time—if they had had from last summer or even from last October—they would be able Mr. Heath: I am very worried about one of the two to plan their services more effectively and smooth out district councils in my constituency, Mendip district some of the impact that such cuts will inevitably have council. South Somerset is happily well-run and has on their services. If information is not provided urgently, shown that it is very good at running its resources. councils will be preparing their budgets from October Mendip district council has, over the years, massively and probably having to carry out a slashing exercise on cut its services and then massively increased both council current services of which Freddy Krueger would be tax and charges. It is now considered by the Audit proud. All councils will be facing a nightmare on Elm Commission to be one of the worst-run councils in the street because they are not being told what to expect. country. I am not sure that it could survive that sort of What does that mean for council tax payers? It raises impact. The problem is, of course, that the one-time a big question as to what will happen to council tax. In leader of Mendip district council, Councillor Ken the past, there have been above-inflation increases every Maddock, is now leader of Somerset county council, year since the council tax was introduced, but what which has hitherto been a top-rated authority. I am impact would the introduction of capping have on worried not only that Mendip will go down the pan but services? It would certainly not help to sort out the that Somerset county council will deteriorate. public debt, because it would provide the Government with only a marginal gain from what happens to council Julia Goldsworthy: That prompts a question about tax benefits, so they would not obtain any advantage. the motivation of such individuals in wanting to control What is most likely to happen is that there will be a council. Is the aim to reduce council tax as much as massive pressures on the council tax system, because if possible, whatever the cost, or to provide value for councils want to do anything to prioritise an important money? They are very different things and it seems that service, the only way that they will be able to find any the primary motivation is purely headlines rather than discretion is through terrifying increases in council tax. providing services in the best interest of local residents. 389 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 390

Mr. Pelling: The hon. Lady was quite right to underline said, have regular revaluations. That is part of the how she is talking about the urgency of reform. She system. If we do not like revaluations, we must rethink mentioned gearing, and a strong example of that is the the matter and decide what is the most suitable way of London authority, where the gearing is one in 12—the raising taxes locally. It is embarrassing to hear the fake system there is ridiculous. As there is urgency, do you arguments about what is being considered and what is feel that a Liberal Democrat-influenced Government being done. If people really believe that council tax is would seek an urgent change to the local government the right system, they should stand up for the revaluation financial system in the first year? system. In our previous debates on this issue, the most recent Mr. Speaker: Order. As this is the third time, may I of which was on a Conservative Opposition day, the remind the hon. Gentleman that the debate goes through Conservatives have done an absolutely fine job of analysing the Chair? I do not feel or think anything on these the problem, but if they think that they will be in a matters, but I am sure that the hon. Lady does. position to run a Government, they need some ideas. Just being able to tell a good story is not enough. Their Julia Goldsworthy: As I was saying, one of the weaknesses stance on the council tax freeze is a prime example of in the current system is the fact that 75 per cent. of what how they really do not get it. They are quite happy to local councils spend is not raised locally. A number of talk about localism and to use some of the rhetoric that things can be done—some more quickly than others—to they think sounds great, but a council tax freeze would try to reverse that ratio. Another weakness in the system mean more centralised funding for local government is the fact that taxpayers and business rate payers see no and less local discretion over the delivery of public correlation between what they pay to their local council services. Their stance on that issue completely contradicts and what they end up getting from their local council. what they say they believe, and is nonsense. Again, when we end up with significant cuts and very The Conservatives’proposal on planning is also nonsense. difficult decisions, it makes matters even more painful. I They want to replace central pressures on house building know that in the period leading up to my election, I was with financial pressures. If one sets that idea in the told increasingly on the doorstep that the current system context of what I said about the IFS “Green Budget”, was unsustainable and that council tax was hated. I we are again talking about massive financial pressures think that that problem will be magnified as we go on councils to approve huge developments because that through this process. is the only way in which they will get additional income. We must not forget, too, that the council tax system is In my view, housing policy should be based on what the incredibly inefficient. We need only look at the successful local population needs, not on centrally driven targets application rates for council tax benefit, for example, or what are basically financial bribes. The priority and at how many people are entitled to it who do not should be local need, and policy should not be driven receive it. What will happen in a situation where there by financial incentives or central targets. might be potentially significant increases in council tax? As far as I can work out, the Government’s approach On top of all that, a range of public services are to this issue has been displacement activity. There has delivered locally outside local government that might been a bureaucratic response, but what really needs to well be subject to similar pressures for which there is no be addressed is how people are consulted, how decisions accountability. There is a fundamental question about are taken about the delivery of public services and how the other services that are delivered locally outside the money is raised. A classic example of the situation is local authority. This will lead to the unsuitable state of provided in a document published by the Cabinet Office, affairs that we have seen for a long time becoming rather than the Department for Communities and Local completely unsustainable. The kind of changes that we Government, which exemplifies the kind of approach need do not simply involve providing longer funding that the Government take. I shall be interested to hear horizons for local authorities, although of course that is from the Minister how effectively she thinks the “Smarter helpful. It is not just about getting the funding formula Government” document and its implementation will or equalisation measures right or about fully funding help to engage communities on what will be difficult any additional responsibilities that central Government issues. There is a chapter on dealing with local priorities, pass on to local government. It is about a much bigger and page 38 talks about how the Government will issue, for which this situation might provide a catalyst. improve such relationships. One section states: We have a massive disconnect between the people “We will align the different sector-specific performance management who are accessing public services locally and the frameworks across key local agencies—the NHS, police, schools organisations that deliver them. Changes need to be and local government—thereby increasing the focus on indicators relating to joint outcomes. We will set out in Budget 2010 the key more than bureaucratic; they need fundamentally to areas where frameworks for specific frontline sectors can be alter the relationships not just between central and local further aligned.” government but with the people who use those public services. That is why it is depressing when there is an If that is a good example of engaging people, sorting amusing bit of knockabout in the Chamber on familiar out local government and making it more accessible, issues—revaluation being the obvious one—when the and if that is the kind of bureaucratic approach that subject is a complete red herring, with people arguing at will be taken, then we have a depressing world to look cross purposes and both sides holding intellectually forward to. unsustainable positions. It is not possible to say, “We Another area in which such ideas are being investigated think that the council tax system is great, but we is Total Place. I have a particular interest in this issue think that revaluation is bad.” If we want to keep the because of the many similarities to the Sustainable council tax system then we must, as my hon. Friend the Communities Act 2007, which I presented as a Bill to Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) has Parliament in 2006, following up the excellent work of 391 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 392

Sue Doughty, the former MP for Guildford. A key changes over which people will feel that they have no strand of the Act involves the provision of easily digestible influence or say. It is important that that does not local spending reports that contain details of all public happen. spending at local level. The idea behind the reports was We need public services that are designed for, and that once that information was in the public domain, accountable to, the people who use them, whereas currently members of the public would want to have a say in how we have a system that is designed for the benefit of the it could be better spent. It was part of a process to turn organisations involved in delivering them. The emphasis decision making around and make it work on a bottom-up, seems to be on administrative convenience, not on the rather than a top-down, basis. The Government have interests of the people who use the services. A fundamental decided, perhaps because that idea did not come from shift needs to happen, and it must cut across a variety of the DCLG, that they do not want to implement it as different areas. The tax system must change, so that the quickly as the tens of thousands of people who supported taxes that we pay locally no longer disappear into the that campaign wanted it implemented. However, Total Treasury to be spent elsewhere. We can achieve that by Place provides a way in which that information can be localising business rates and moving to a system of made available in a better way than is being achieved in local income tax, although we would like to allow the the local spending reports under the 2007 Act. councils that are keen to trial that system to pilot it first. Again, the Government have missed the point. They Money that currently goes to remote and unaccountable are making localism a worthy way of having local area organisations could be redirected towards putting local agreements with knobs on, but they are not thinking communities in charge of economic regeneration. In about how to use it as a tool for engaging people, and addition, the housing revenue account needs to be are not using their expertise to ensure that the right sorted out, so that councils have greater freedom to things are prioritised and that money is spent effectively. borrow and invest in council housing. We also need to It is very frustrating that the Government have missed give people a proper say on decisions that affect them in the fundamental point of adopting a localist approach other areas. in the first place. The approach that I am outlining would get rid of Instead of inertia and denial about the terrifying unaccountable quangos, but it would also have implications future facing a lot of Departments, we need radical for electoral reform. The Prime Minister may have had action. We need a simplified, localist system of public a deathbed conversion to that yesterday, but he seems to services that is easier for people to understand and be interested only in the Westminster Parliament. If we influence. The current difficult financial situation makes are serious about engaging people in politics, we must that more important, not less. realise that there are thousands of politicians around the country who are in the same boat as we are. The Liberal Democrats have put the localist agenda People will have their faith and confidence in politics at front and centre of what we want to do, and that restored if politicians of all kinds go out and prove to stands in direct contrast to the approach taken by them, on their doorsteps, that their vote counts and will Labour and the Conservatives. The Government’s make a difference. I was therefore very disappointed compartmentalised approach spreads across departmental that yesterday we saw only baby steps taken for the silos, but it is also evident within Departments: today’s Westminster Parliament. No such steps were taken at debate has made it clear that the section of the DCLG the level of local government, even though some progress that deals with localism and participation does not feel in that direction has been made in Scotland. We should any need to work with the section that deals with local remember that the crisis in confidence in politics is not government finance. The localist agenda must cut across exclusive to Westminster. both this and other Departments, although I am not convinced that that happens. It is beginning to happen That is the kind of debate that we should be having with the Total Place initiative but, unfortunately, as about the future of local government finance, and of with a lot of things, that is driven by the Treasury. local government more widely. I am disappointed that the Government have not proposed ways to deal with We need to encourage more cross-departmental thinking. the fiscal crisis that we face and to ensure that people The localist agenda is important now because some have a say and a stake in the process. The Government painful, difficult and controversial decisions will have to continue to assume the worst of local authorities and be taken on the delivery of local public services. Inevitably, local people, while presuming that every action taken by they will have an impact on the front line in one way or central Government is in the best interests of those another. We hear a great deal about how problems can people and is the best possible outcome, which is certainly be dealt with by efficiency gains, but that is not so—there not the case. As we go forward into a fiscally tight will be dramatic cuts. situation, that is even more important. The IFS has shown how deep those cuts will have to Labour should have come clean on what their proposals be if we get a Labour Government after the general will mean for local government, instead of denying that election, although a Conservative Government is likely there is any problem with the current set-up. It seems to be even worse. The cuts will be really painful if the that the Conservatives are intent on cheering them on in current set-up does not change. They will be imposed that double delusion. We need real change for a fairer, on communities, without involving or being properly greener and more local system of politics. accountable to the people in them. 6.5 pm The interim findings of the Total Place pilot revealed that councils spend an average of £7,000 per person on Mr. Neil Turner (Wigan) (Lab): I welcome the settlement. public services, of which only £350 is discretionary It is an extremely good settlement for local government spending. There are likely to be a huge number of and builds on more than 10 years of above-inflation 393 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 394

[Mr. Neil Turner] full discretion over business rates? They could then run their cities and towns competitively in order to attract grants to local government. It is particularly welcome business and prosperity. because the circumstances in which it was first mooted are very different from the present circumstances. Mr. Turner: The proposal to return business rates to local government has a lot of merit, but it should not be In the 1980s and 1990s, when the Conservative considered in isolation. If we are to look at how local Government’s home-grown recessions were putting pressure government is financed, we must do so in the round, on local government, I remember the kind of things rather than through a single issue, as I am sure the hon. that they were doing. It must have been a temptation for Gentleman understands and agrees. However, I take on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to follow board his point about the return of the business rate to their lead, with cuts in money, cuts in the percentage of local government. funding that was given to local authorities, and cuts in the freedom of local authorities to act. One major thing that we have done over the past few years is introduce the certainty of three years’ funding, I was a councillor in the 1980s and 1990s and my ensuring that local government is able to forward plan local authority, Wigan metropolitan borough council, and develop strategic responsibilities. That has been a was losing £8 million to £10 million year on year major element in the improved efficiency of all local because of the way in which the Conservative Government authorities. The National Audit Office’s figures show dealt with the recession. There was no planning or that almost every single local authority throughout the forward thinking. We got the first indication in November country, irrespective of party control, is more efficient or December and confirmation in February, and we and more effective than it was in 1997 at delivering its had to start planning our cuts from 1 April. It was a services. A major aspect of that has been the ability to disaster. Cuts were implemented with no thought given plan three years on three years, rather than having to go to efficiency. It was inexcusable. Programmes were hand to mouth as we did in the past. I do not know abandoned halfway through because we had been told where the Opposition stand on that process, but it that we could not have that kind of money.The Government would be interesting to hear an indication—something could have done the same this year. that we could hang on to. Will they continue or abandon the three-year process? Mr. Bailey: I was chair of finance at Sandwell metropolitan council during those years. I reiterate my Justine Greening: Our concern is that the Government hon. Friend’s point. After one settlement, we would have abandoned the process. There is no comprehensive start planning for the projected round of cuts in the review and, apparently, no prospect of one. The hon. next settlement. That continued for four or five years, Gentleman would be better off asking the Minister and we ended up with large council tax increases combined whether his own Government have abandoned it, rather with a slashing of public services to keep within the than asking the Opposition whether we will. Conservative Government’s revenue support grant. Mr. Turner: The Government have not abandoned Mr. Turner: My hon. Friend replicates my account of that process. Clearly, we have a problem with the my own experience, which is shared by many people comprehensive spending review, and we all know that, who were councillors in Labour-controlled authorities, but it would be nonsensical to undertake a comprehensive in particular. As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the spending review immediately before an election that Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey), could lead to a change in Government, as it would have who is no longer in her place, the Conservative Government been in an economic downturn, which could have been used to gerrymander the system of grants to suit their a depression if we had followed the economic advice of own local authorities. the Conservative party. The Government’s policy is that the three-year settlement will continue from next year. The Secretary of State could have done that, in response to the world recession that we are in, but he Despite the hon. Lady’s intervention, there was no did not. Unlike the Eton old boys, we have learned commitment from the Opposition to a three-year spending some lessons. We learned not just in the 1980s and review or package, but if local government is to plan 1990s, but in the 1930s, that the way to make sure that properly it needs that commitment. If you want to think we come out of a recession is not through public sector about the things that local government needs, you really cuts, but by investing in that to slow the recession down ought to think about that, rather than some of the and by investing to grow for the future. nonsense that you were coming out with earlier. The effect of the present policy, compared with the Mr. Speaker: Order. May I just gently say to the hon. 1980s, is remarkable. In my borough, we have half the Gentleman, as I said to the hon. Member for Croydon, number of job losses that we had in the 1980s and Central (Mr. Pelling), that debate is conducted through 1990s, half the number of mortgage repossessions, and the Chair? I know that the hon. Member for Wigan half the number of businesses going bust. Local government (Mr. Turner) did not intend to abuse me with the is a major factor in that. Obviously, central Government pejorative language that he just deployed, but it would play a hugely important role, but local government is be good if he avoided a repetition. able to put the funds from central Government into ensuring that people’s homes are protected, businesses Mr. Turner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Perish the are supported and jobs are saved. thought that I would ever do anything to earn your wrath and ire. Mr. Pelling: Would not local authorities be even more I shall provide a couple of examples of what the effective at economic development if we returned to three-year funding certainty has given us. First, on them what a Conservative Government took away, namely housing, we have 26,000 council houses in Wigan, and 395 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 396 every single one has been brought up to the decent further. The council tax system is inherently unfair. It homes standard. We have been able to do so not only in was designed to be unfair, so producing such a system the public sector, but in the private sector, where many was one of the few things that John Major managed to thousands of houses have also been brought up to that succeed in. It surely cannot be right that a millionaire standard. That is largely due not only to Government old Etonian in Notting Hill pays only three times more money, but to the certainty of being able to plan year on in council tax as a minimum wage earner pays for the year. same local services. I personally like banding. It is Secondly, on education, we have been awarded a simple to understand and to administer, but we need to Building Schools for the Future programme in Wigan. reform it. We need more bands at the bottom and more That has now started, and we have a programme to bands at the top—an open-ended banding at the top, I rebuild every secondary school in the borough. I should would suggest—so that, as my hon. Friend the Member also mention three primary schools: Canon Sharples, for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey) said, the Woodfield and Westfield. For years under the Conservative amount of money that is paid more accurately reflects Government, pupils at Woodfield were taught in timber the income of people and their ability to pay for those huts, where in winter they were freezing and in summer services. they were sweltering. We have totally rebuilt that school under a Labour Government, and shortly we will start Revaluations should be carried out on a regular basis. on Beech Hill primary school. We should never have cancelled them in the first place—we should have gone on with them at the beginning of this Most importantly of all, throughout the borough we Government and done them again since. As the hon. have 19 Sure Start centres. These are not just glorified Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) nursery schools; that is only part of the job that they do. said, if we do not do this we will bring the whole system They are also places where parents learn parenting into disrepute; it will become similar to the poll tax in skills. We do not live in a broken Britain—a silly, trite having to be totally reviewed in future. We can do that phrase; if one did not know better, one would think it revaluation—it is not a difficult exercise. Every month was thought up by some second-rate advertising trainee— building societies tell us by how much house prices have but we do live in a Britain where there are people and risen or fallen over the period. If they can do that on a families who have very difficult problems, and Sure monthly basis, I do not see why the Government, via the Start is one way of addressing those problems. Mums— Valuation Office Agency, could not do it every four or many of them are 15, 16 or 17-year-olds—who come five years. Let me reiterate what my hon. Friend said, from dysfunctional families can go to Sure Start centres because it did not seem to have any impact on the and start to learn how to be good parents and how to be Conservative spokesperson. This is a zero sum game. communicative beyond their small peer group. They Having a revaluation does not mean that local authorities can learn social skills and, equally, the skills that can get will get more money. They may choose to get more them into work once their parenting responsibilities are money from it, but that is a different issue and a less onerous. different argument. Some people will pay more, and Sure Start is absolutely essential to the long-term some will pay less. It is important that there is some programme to give children from dysfunctional families, kind of damping effect in revaluations so that those and those families themselves, a better start. They benefit who pay more are not suddenly faced with 10, 15 or from going from these facilities into much more modern 20 per cent. increases but they are brought in gradually. primary schools, and then into modern secondary schools It is absolutely essential that we have revaluations if we built under this Labour Government’s Building Schools are to ensure that the system does not fall into disrepute for the Future programme, which the Conservatives again. have not yet said that they would continue with in government; in fact, as I understand it, they would The final area in which we need reform is the grant reduce it dramatically, if not scrap it completely. This is itself. The formula is about right, as it recognises deprivation a whole package of long-term reform that will reap and the needs of councils to tackle the problems that rewards not only next year but 10, 15 or 20 years down come from that deprivation. It also recognises rurality the line. It would be class vandalism for any party to and the extra costs of delivering services in sparsely stop or reduce any part of that investment in our populated areas, but it has not been fully implemented. people’s future. We are still suffering from the disgraceful way in which We have come a long way, but we could go further. the previous Conservative Government gerrymandered We should implement not just a three-year settlement the grant to their own local authorities. In the years for local government but a rolling three-year settlement from 2008-09 to 2010-11, Wigan will have been underfunded so that every year people will know three years in by £8 million, £6.5 million and £5.5 million respectively—a advance how much money they will be getting. Local total of £20 million over those three years. government would then be able to plan even more effectively than it does now. I understand that it is not There is no doubt that there has been year-on-year for the Department for Communities and Local improvement, and it has ensured that we are getting Government to make that decision—it needs to be closer to the target. We have moved from 6 per cent. decided throughout Government, and with Treasury below it in 2008 to 4 per cent. below now, but we have to agreement. However, it would enhance local government’s quicken that pace if we are to tackle deprivation properly ability to deliver its services more effectively and efficiently, in areas such as mine. That is all the more important and there would be benefits to the public good as a when councils are linked in with primary care trusts. result. One difficulty is that local authorities and PCTs are With local area agreements, relaxed targets, Total now delivering services on a common basis much more. Place agreements between councils, and health trusts, They have common offices, pooled resources and joint we have come a huge distance, but we need to go funding. When a local authority is underfunded, such 397 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 398

[Mr. Neil Turner] The Minister said that the Government gave a generous cash increase of 4 per cent. to local government. In as Wigan and many others, the PCT that serves the those broad terms, as a headline, that is correct, but as same area is underfunded. In Wigan, the PCT was with all local government announcements, those that underfunded by £26 million in 2008-09, £25.5 million in gain are silent, with one or two exceptions, such as the 2009-10 and £25 million in 2010-11, so £76.5 million hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner), and those that that should have gone to Wigan borough for its health lose complain. In London and the south-east, local services has not. If we want to tackle the health and authorities have had plenty of opportunity to complain social inequalities that exist in our country, we must and plenty of reasons to do so. In a way, it is fortunate urgently tackle health and local authority funding that they have recognised that we are at the end of the inequalities. three-year cycle and that they are looking for post-election There is no doubt that that would cause problems for changes, whoever the Government will be. They have local authorities that are overfunded. I heard the hon. knuckled down to produce savings, to ensure that they Member for Richmond Park (Susan Kramer) complain provide better services at a lower cost, so they do not hit about the funding for Richmond. We hear a lot from their local citizens with high charges. the Liberal Democrats about the fact that they believe What has happened under the 4 per cent. increase has in equality, yet here we can make an impact in that varied. The Chairman of the Select Committee touched regard by reducing the amount of money that Richmond on this but skidded off it almost immediately. A recent gets—it receives more than 200 per cent. more than it is Committee report, “The Balance of Power: Central and entitled to. We could reduce that and put it into areas Local Government”, reflected on local government such as mine that are underfunded. expenditure and local council tax. Successive Ministers, Julia Goldsworthy: I think that my hon. Friend’s some of whom have attended the debate, would tell us point was that the situation is a bit similar to that of the that the ties, targets and bureaucracy for local government council tax revaluation. The longer the period over have diminished, which they have. However, one must which we try to deal with such issues, the more out of recognise that they have diminished from the enormous kilter they get. That makes it more painful for areas high that this Labour Government introduced. There waiting to get up to their target funding, and more has been a knock-on effect on expenditure and, because painful for areas that are a long way above their target of gearing, a massive effect on council tax. to get back down to it. Because the problem has not The cry from local government, which is still valid, is been addressed over a shorter period, it has become that it wants the bureaucracy, auditing, ties and so forth even more of a problem to deal with. removed, and local councillors, who have been elected by local people, to be given the opportunity to get on Mr. Turner: That is not my understanding of what with the job with the minimum of direction from above. the hon. Member for Richmond Park said—I will read The implications of that include considerable savings Hansard. I believe that the hon. Member for Falmouth for both central and local government—an easy example and Camborne agrees with my point that we need to is the Audit Commission, which is five times the size it move more quickly towards the formula funding, so was in 1997. that each local authority gets the grant that it is entitled to under that formula. I welcome that agreement, as it is As a response to that reaction by local government, very important that that happens as quickly as possible. the Local Government Association recently produced a The pace of change is vital to local authorities if we are paper that said it could cut the total bill for local to achieve things. government by £4.5 billion, with a positive knock-on Finally, I welcome the confirmation of the settlement, effect for central Government. If that were extended to which I hope will make local authority funding more the structure of local government finance, there could effective and better in future. The three-year settlement be large reductions in council tax, because there is builds on 10 years of growth in funding and allows local reverse gearing. Gearing was mentioned earlier, but if authorities to plan. Because of all the things that the savings were made in the right sort of areas, there would Government have done over the past 12 years, local be reverse gearing, so council tax would go down. government is in a much better place than in 1997 when Perhaps the Government will heed those points. After we came into power. the election, whoever wins, I hope to have the opportunity to take the new Secretary of State to some local councils—I 6.24 pm am thinking in particular of one that my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening) knows. I Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): One of the want to have people explain to him or her in no uncertain delightful things about this debate was that the Secretary terms just how damaging the current Government have of State launched it, which is a little unusual. He gave a been to local government, regarding not financing, but premier performance. He managed to present figures by the burdens they have placed on it. using percentages where they were appropriate and actual figures where they were not—it was the performance Of course, the behind-the-scenes selective local of a magician, and I look forward to Debbie McGee government funding cuts have not come up in the following it up at the end of the debate to solve the debate. As I said, we are at the end of the three-year whole thing for us. I suppose, as it has been put to me, I cycle and there are going to be changes. One problem am speaking from a position of poacher turned gamekeeper, with a set three-year cycle is that the Government are or watching from the sidelines. Today’s debate has been inflexible. In the current financial situation, it would be intriguing. We have wandered round all over the place risky for them to be too dogmatically tied to a three-year before eventually coming back to the subject, which I spending cycle. Over the next three years, flexibility will intend to keep to. be required. 399 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 400

Local government claims that its cost inflation is the north and predominantly—at that stage—Labour running at approximately 3 per cent. In the light of that, authorities. The needs indices calculations are opaque. the 4 per cent. is generous, but the distribution, even They are much more unintelligibly dense and complex under this Government—or perhaps particularly under than pre-1997. Pre-1997, shadow Ministers claimed that this Government—is slanted. For example, it has not they would make the formula more transparent. I note, been mentioned tonight, but for most authorities in with some trepidation, that my own Front-Bench team London the grant increase is only 1.5 per cent. Many of says the same. Of course, it is always a balance. The those authorities, especially in inner London, face the more transparent and less complex a formula, the more sort of dire problems that the hon. Member for Wigan there is rough justice. The fairer the assessment system— raised. Those authorities are struggling with those problems, taking into account detailed needs—the more complex although hon. Members have failed to recognise that the formula. However, recent Government formulae and, indeed, have criticised the funding for two inner- have been designed to justify grant movement north London authorities, one of which I know quite well. It despite increasing pressures from population, increased would benefit those complaining to take a tour of those school rolls and increasing Government bureaucratic local authorities to see what has been done with much red tape in London and the south-east. I hope that we less money than in other local authorities around the will have a new Conservative Government, who will country. have a massive reorganisation on their hands. It is There will be the threat of capping, but those London overdue. authorities will probably look for, and find, efficiency 6.34 pm savings so as not to pass excessive costs on to their council tax payers. The same applies in many south-east John Howell (Henley) (Con): I spoke in a similar authorities. My constituency receives services from Mole debate a year ago when we discussed the previous Valley district council, Guildford council and of course financial settlement. I struggle to see where the massive Surrey county council. All are Conservative controlled improvement that the Secretary of State talked about in and all would have been delighted to have received a his opening remarks has come from. Instead, there is 4 per cent. increase in grant. In fact, going by trends greater uncertainty, and the attitude of central Government over many years, they would have been utterly amazed. to local government during this year can be described Guildford’s formula grant increased by 1.45 per cent.—not only in terms of a master-servant relationship. One by 4 per cent. This 1.4 per cent. increases Guildford’s specific piece of legislation illustrated that fact for me grant to approximately £62 per head. The average for and many other hon. Members when it was in Committee English district councils is approximately £79 per head. and as it progressed through the House earlier in the Mole Valley district council would have been delighted year, but I shall come to that later. with Guildford council’s increase, let alone the 4 per Is the settlement really an attempt, as the Secretary of cent. Government headline, because it received a 0.5 per State made out, to talk up a Labour view of localism? I cent. Government grant increase. Following the same cannot recognise it as localist, and I do not think that trend, Surrey county council’s grant increase was 1.5 per any councillors could either. Overriding everything is cent., which follows on last year’s 1.75 per cent. and the the feeling of utter powerlessness of councillors, and year before, which was 2 per cent. that was one of the major reasons many stepped down at the last elections. Many still have that feeling of Mr. Neil Turner: I look at the figures for Mole Valley powerlessness, and nowhere is that more apparent than and I see that it will receive 30 per cent. more than the when it comes to money and their ability to set their formula funding says that it should get in 2008-09, own budgets. dropping to 21 per cent. more next year. How can the The Secretary of State referred to the importance of hon. Gentleman justify any increase above the floor this time of the year, not just in relation to this debate, when the council already receives so much more than it but because of the budget setting that many councils is entitled to? Moreover, half of the super-output areas are going through and how the information before us in Mole Valley are in the top 10 per cent. most affluent feeds into it. My former colleagues on my own county in the country. council remain as frustrated and disappointed as I used to be every budget time because of the little influence Sir Paul Beresford: It might help the hon. Gentleman they have in setting the budget and allocating money to if he took half a day to come with me to some of the their own priorities in the area covering a range of Mole Valley villages, which have deprivation to match different subjects. That is partly a question of ring-fencing, anything he has in Wigan. In addition, he should think and again the Secretary of State made great play of back to when we had an Office of the Deputy Prime having improved the business of ring-fencing. Minister and the funding formula changed dramatically. In preparation for this debate, I asked my local council That change reduced the grant to Surrey county council to give me an idea of the ring-fenced and non-ring-fenced and the local district councils dramatically.The year-on-year balance amounts. I have an e-mail from the finance and loss to Surrey county council was £39 million, and that procurement team stating the latest grant figures for loss was reflected by the other councils. The hon. Gentleman 2010-11: a total of £526.2 million, of which £484.8 million should reflect on the fact that the money moved with is ring-fenced and only £43.2 million is non-ring-fenced. the change in the formula, but that does not mean that When it comes to councillors being able to use the the formula is right. money and make changes according to their own lists of I accept that there are differences in needs from priorities, even major councils with overall budgets of authority to authority, and that this must be reflected in about £1 billion have just a few tens of millions of the allocation. But even the Audit Commission a few pounds at the most. That is not the reason councillors— years ago commented on the fact that there had been a there are many former councillors in the Chamber—stood huge shift of grant from London and the south-east to for election. 401 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 402

Mr. Pelling: Does it not have a tremendously debilitating Councils in my area have experienced a couple of effect on both the quality of candidates and on voting, issues that illustrate that point, and one of them is if people do not feel that councillors have real influence personal care at home. I know that that was covered in in the community or can make a difference? Is it not in the House recently, but there are some specific issues many ways a reflection of the pretty poor state of about it, one of which is the cost. It is difficult to know British politics? Does it not in reality underline how the what the cost will be. The Government have produced Executive continue to absorb powers whether from some airy figures, but it is difficult for councils to assess Parliament or by abstraction from local discretion? what the costs of the measure will be to them. First, there would be a loss of income from some of those John Howell: The hon. Gentleman makes some powerful who currently pay for care arranged by the council. points with which I agree. The Local Government Councils will need to assess what that loss might be, but Association has done some survey work showing that a that is not straightforward. It involves reviewing the large majority of people think that councillors should detailed circumstances of everyone who currently receives have the ability to make financial decisions. If anybody domiciliary care to see whether they would be eligible is to cut anything in their own area, they believe that it for free personal care. should be local councillors, who stood for their position, and over whom they have a great deal of democratic Secondly, some people will have not presented themselves control and see regularly. I worry that if we carry on like to adult social care, but will decide to come forward if this, it will be more and more difficult to recruit people they can obtain care for free. Trying to work out the to stand for election, because what will be the point of figures for that is almost an imponderable, but given the standing for election? experience in Scotland, they are likely to be great. The other aspect of personal care at home is about placing The challenge of running an authority with a budget the risk and determining where it lies. Given that the of £1 billion is completely frustrated when one gets amount of grant proposed for personal care at home in down to the £20 million that can be distributed. The the area-based grant will be fixed, all the financial risk talent that is out there—the people who would otherwise will be put on local authorities if the costs are higher come in and make a contribution—will simply go elsewhere, than anticipated. The Association of Directors of Adult including to the golf course. I have nothing against golf, Social Services has already made its estimate, which is but if I had to choose between recommending that considerably higher than the original costing in the somebody play golf in their retirement and recommending Budget. There is a review of that in 18 to 24 months, so that they be a councillor, I hope that I would be able to that could leave significant pressure on councils until persuade them that it was still worth becoming a councillor. any changes are made. Ring-fencing has clearly made no impact whatever on the current situation. However, formal ring-fencing The council side of that funding is supposed to come is only part of the problem, because even where it has out of more efficiency savings. I rather took exception been formally lifted and the funds transferred to the to the Secretary of State’s comment that, when councils area-based grant—I am thinking of the Supporting had shared services and shared their management with People grant—it is still not possible to show genuine the primary care trust or whatever, they could complain localism. Are the Government seriously saying that about being made to make efficiency savings. My own simply transferring the Supporting People grant to the county council and district council have shared services area-based grant will give councillors the choice between that are in operation; in fact, I was the person at the spending on the Supporting People programme and county council who put that in. The councils have spending on roads? That simply will not happen. In shared senior management. We share a director of addition to legal ring-fencing, there is therefore also a public health with the PCT. My district council has practical ring-fencing that has happened with many shared management with the neighbouring district council. grants, even where they have been shifted. Both those councils have year after year had robust and aggressive efficiency saving targets, which year after We also need to focus again on the need for certainty. year they have met. There are some examples, which I shall come to, of the Government creating considerable uncertainty about Perhaps in the winding-up speech the Minister, or if the funding for local councils. However, I do not accept he would like to intervene now, the Secretary of State the points made by the hon. Member for Wigan would like to tell me what I am supposed to tell councils (Mr. Turner) about the reasons why his Government such as my own, which have already gone through the have not pursued a three-year settlement, particularly pain of that, registered that pain with their voters, come when the Local Government Association has shown through and increased their majority at the county that the funding gap by 2013-14 is likely to be in the council elections. They will feel insulted that they are region of £11 billion a year. That level of uncertainty is dismissed in that way and that all that effort and pain difficult for councils to live with. was, in his idea of things, for nothing. The Secretary of State also boasted of the overall Two other issues arise in respect of pressures on increases in local government funding under this funding. I have no idea how widespread those issues Government’s administration. However, if he is going are. I suspect that one is more widespread than the down that line, he has to look at the totality of individual other. One is unaccompanied asylum seeker children. councils’ settlements. He can no longer concentrate on There have been ongoing pressures in that area in only one side of the profit and loss account. If he is Oxfordshire since 2002-03. There was a special going down that line, he has to accept the other side of circumstances grant of just under £500,000 in 2008 for the profit and loss account: the cost side, and the 2008-09, but it does not reflect the ongoing shortfall, increases in those costs. Indeed, the percentage of and the current forecast for 2009-10 is for an overspend expenditure that is borne by council tax increased from of £800,000. There is no suggestion that that will be 22 per cent. in 1996-97 to 26 per cent. in 2006-07. funded by central Government. 403 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 404

The last illustration of an area that has not been words, how much would need to come from council costed is the abolition of the Learning and Skills Council. tax—if the very secondary legislation was not there, not That will pose a major challenge for directorates in even in draft form, to enable such an assessment to be county councils, which will have to reorganise their made? That is highly illustrative of the Government’s services to deliver what the Government want. There is approach and attitude towards local government. That not expected to be any additional funding to enable that is another nail in the coffin for people with talent, to happen. There are burdens, too, from the micro- interest and enthusiasm coming forward to take part in management of partnerships. local government. At the evidence session on the Child Poverty Bill, It is time for the Government to play fair with councils Paul Carter, leader of Kent county council, discussed and with council tax payers. It is time for some real the big outcomes of the first round of local area agreements. localism and it is time that we set out to encourage real He admitted to having been a sceptic initially, but he innovation. It is lying out there among the general was won round by the size of the outcomes. However, public. They need to be brought into local government he complained bitterly about how the LAA had descended so that they have a chance to show their innovation, into micro-management and had become far too complex, particularly in the delivery of services and particularly and with that complexity will come considerable cost. in the costing of those services so that they deliver real value for money. There are initiatives that could make a big difference on the cost side. One of them has been mentioned by 6.52 pm many hon. Members, and that is Total Place, which is not just about the money that is saved by eliminating Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): Many duplication. It is also about how services can be of us have confessed our local government experience, reconfigured. I want to stick to the money part of it. and I probably have more to confess in that respect than There is huge criticism of the way it operates. Again, at others, as I was elected to Croydon council in 1982, the evidence session on the Child Poverty Bill, the serving there until 2006, and I also served as a London leader of Kent county council made it clear: Assembly Member. If I am allowed to be a little sentimental, I perhaps have an obsessive interest in local government “There is still a silo mentality across the public agencies, which financial settlement systems owing to the fact that my are acting in isolation and not in concert. If you can get them all working together in a defined area with the totality of their father was a senior civil servant who dealt with these budgets…public agencies will start to deliver things in a fundamentally issues in the 1970s, and matters associated with the different way.”––[Official Report, Child Poverty Public Bill Committee, Layfield report. 20 October 2009; c. 53, Q124.] It is fair to say that during the extended period of However, the biggest culprit as regards participating in economic growth, moneys to local authorities were very an open way with Total Place is the Government, generous. Indeed, the amount given to local authorities particularly the Department for Work and Pensions. has often been greater than the corresponding overall Richard Kemp, the deputy chairman of the Local rate of growth in the UK economy. Nevertheless, it is a Government Association, who is a councillor in Liverpool, bad habit of Government to continue to centralise and provided an example. He said: to restrict the room for manoeuvre for local authorities, “In my area, someone from Jobcentre Plus was supposed to be despite the slight row back on the part of Government leading the worklessness stream, which is of vital importance in in recent times. Liverpool. She pulled out because she said that it was not part of I very much feel that the removal of the business rate her day job, although we were trying to create a partnership to inflicted substantial damage on the borough of Croydon help her do her day job in that case.”––[Official Report, Child and greatly undermined the very good work that Lord Poverty Public Bill Committee, 20 October 2009; c. 63, Q137.] Bowness did for Croydon council and the town during The Government really need to look at themselves if the 1980s and early 1990s. they are to establish how they are going to make Total Place work. Sir Paul Beresford: Speaking as someone from Croydon or for central London, I believe that the removal of the I mentioned the evidence sessions on the Child Poverty business rate has had a positive side, but it has had a Bill because this provides a very good example of the negative effect on much of the rest of the country where master-servant relationship that we have seen between there is little business. That is why, in my personal central and local government this year. I will not detain opinion, there must be equalisation across the country; the House by recapping the Bill, but broadly speaking, otherwise many local authorities with no or next to no the Government set national targets in the first part of businesses will be savaged. the Bill and then handed it all over—just dumped it—on to local government in the second part. They Mr. Pelling: The hon. Gentleman has demonstrated ignored the fact that many councils were already doing his long-standing experience of local government, along a tremendous amount of work, and they imposed a new with a recognition of the inevitability of Government duty that many people, including those we took evidence involvement. In my view, while authorities continue to from, consistently said was not necessary. They imposed have a degree of discretion equalisation is inevitable. I a level of bureaucracy, which must have a significant think that that 1980s Croydon local authority adopted cost element to it. a rather municipalist approach, perhaps a little more When it came to the impact assessment, however, it independent than the more robust conservatism represented showed a minimal cost amount. That is hardly surprising by the hon. Gentleman. because the meat of the Bill was in the secondary The former Mayor of London rightly recognised that legislation, which had not yet been introduced. How on many suburban areas in outer London faced considerable earth was it possible to make an accurate costing of the challenges, and I think that that applies particularly to effect on local councils and their budgets—in other Croydon. We suffer, or perhaps enjoy, dynamic population 405 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 406

[Mr. Pelling] A couple of years ago, a former DCLG Minister, the current Minister for Borders and Immigration, the hon. changes—what could be described as “population Member for Oldham, East and Saddleworth (Mr. Woolas), churn”—while also confronting the challenge posed by got quite animated with me when I expressed concern the Government’s desire to remove a significant number about the amount of money that Croydon received, and of public sector jobs from the area. reference was made to local enterprise growth initiative The Government are right to emphasise the £20 million money. The point was made to me that £77 million of of extra grant that Croydon will receive this year. There LEGI money came to Croydon, but in reality that is no good reason why the borough should not be able money is not guaranteed, and there is a great deal of to match the Labour authorities that are aiming for a uncertainty as to whether it will continue to be given. zero per cent. increase—or, as that is rather a Brownism, That is an important concern. perhaps I should say a freeze—in council tax. Nevertheless, I am also worried about the negative effect on a very Croydon has fundamental underlying problems. weak local economy of the supplementary business rate I will make only the briefest reference to a regional in terms of all of that money being abstracted from Select Committee, as another Member was chastised Croydon businesses and being spent entirely on Crossrail. from the Chair in this regard. However, I think it is a That will have an adverse effect on potential positive positive result of the establishment of regional Select investments in the business improvement district in Committees that the London Committee is examining Croydon. the important issue of the forthcoming census and its impact on local government financial settlements and It is important that Croydon council aspires to achieve other public sector flows. the same as some Labour councils in London have According to evidence given to the Committee by the achieved: a council tax freeze this year. The incomes of London borough of Croydon, its population is likely to many Croydon residents are either going down or are be 37,000 greater than the 340,800 that is presumed by frozen, and they would find it entirely unaffordable to the Office for National Statistics and used in local have yet another increase, especially bearing it in mind government financial settlement processes. Moreover, that the London Borough of Croydon has increased the 41,034 migrants have registered with GPs in the last council tax by the maximum amount allowed under the seven years, and 25,290 national insurance numbers informal capping system. I am joined in this call for a have been given to non-British workers by Jobcentre council tax freeze by Labour councillors in Croydon, Plus over the last three years. Those fundamental problems but they have no credibility as they previously increased are undermining the credibility of the moneys given to the council tax by 27 per cent. the borough. Let me turn now to a matter of great concern, on The operation of the area cost adjustment and the which I hope the Minister will be able to help. At a time distinction that is made between west and east London— when Croydon council is making real cuts—not merely Croydon being regarded as an east London authority—have efficiencies—in services, it has arranged for a loan of led to a cumulative shortfall of £16 million. Obviously £145 million in order to build a new town hall. In the operation of the ACA is valuable, but the way in addition, there is the prospect of £93 million of interest which it is not applied to specific grants has a distorting payments until 2036, making a total of £238 million. and unhelpful impact on Croydon’s allocations. The Considerable concern has been expressed to me by difference between the amount given to one authority residents who have received a communication from the and the amount given to another can be hard to explain. Labour party suggesting that the total cost will be The London borough of Croydon considers itself to £1,115 per household. That is a kind underestimate, as face challenges similar to those faced by the London it does not take account of interest payments. The real borough of Enfield—in fact, I think it faces rather more cost for residents is £2,016 per household. severe challenges—but Enfield receives £423 per head, I well remember the very important speech given by while Croydon receives £348. That is difficult for the Neil Kinnock at a Labour party conference about how authority to explain to local residents and taxpayers. it was obscene to see Derek Hatton’s Liverpool council In addition, the authority could face significant pressures issuing redundancy notices by taxi. In some ways, I as a result of changes in the funding of the freedom think it is similarly wrong for Croydon council to be pass in London. Given that support for London local setting about cutting services while at the same time government as a whole is to be reduced by £28.6 million, putting aside the equivalent of £3.5 million a year to Croydon will lose £1.3 million. Croydon must also service such a large loan for such a project. Now is not spend £1.9 million a year on supporting migrants—or the time to be building a new council headquarters for asylum seekers—who, having exhausted the legal system, the benefit of councillors. find themselves with no recourse to public funds. There has been considerable controversy about the decision to close the asylum walk-in centre in Liverpool and to Mr. Slaughter: The hon. Gentleman has identified an concentrate activities in Croydon. I feel that the Home interesting trend. The proudest boast of the leader of Office has turned a deaf ear to our concerns, and I have Hammersmith and Fulham council is that he has got organised a petition on the issue which is securing a rid of 1,000 jobs in the last three years—he has sacked great deal of local support. 1,000 people in the middle of a recession—yet that I plead for the Department for Communities and same council is investing £35 million in a new extension Local Government to adopt a more open-minded approach, to the town hall. These municipal monstrosities are and to agree that, perhaps over the coming year, it will examples of just the sort of grandiose projects of local try to measure the number of additional asylum seekers government that we thought were things of the past, who are resident in Croydon, in order to see whether the but they are not. This is not only happening in Croydon, local authority’s demand for a better allocation is fair. therefore. 407 Local Government Finance3 FEBRUARY 2010 Local Government Finance 408

Mr. Pelling: I am extremely interested to hear that It is an inappropriate use of public money to have such similar projects are being pursued elsewhere in London. a close relationship between a parliamentary campaign It has always been a great weakness of local government and the spending of council money. and local councillors that they are obsessed with the As many Members have said in Westminster Hall grandiose, and with aggrandisement at home in the debates, there are also great dangers in councils trying town hall, when it is services that are important. It is to get into the media business. The number of newspapers wrong that services are being cut back at the same time being produced by councils is unacceptable and risks as such new projects are being taken on. This loan with undermining things. I know that the hon. Member for the Public Works Loan Board is in place, but it has not Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush (Mr. Slaughter), yet been drawn down. Will the Minister have an opportunity who takes a great interest in the performance of to assess whether this really is appropriate behaviour? I Hammersmith and Fulham council, has been very critical know that our appropriate approach is to say that local of the way in which his local authority does that. I authorities should be given discretion to make their believe that the Your Croydon newspaper wrongly continues own mistakes, but I think that this mistake will fall very to be run so closely with the Conservative parliamentary heavily on Croydon council tax payers in future, particularly party campaign and to give great prominence to things given that the local authority refuses to provide much during this election purdah period. detail on what the contract involves. It has been taken Finally, I wish to return to the issue of the role of out in partnership with John Laing plc, which is no business, because the pro-business borough was at the longer a public company—it is in the ownership of a very heart of Croydon’s success in the 1960s. I know private equity fund. Bearing in mind the difficult state that, in many ways, the approach taken then had many in which private equity finds itself in terms of financing weaknesses: it was very municipalist and dirigiste, and it from the City, this is a dangerous circumstance for the was perhaps a little old-fashioned compared with the local authority to have involved itself in. more appropriately aggressive and laissez-faire approach taken in the London borough of Wandsworth. Nevertheless, Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman co-ordination and co-operation between the council may be surprised to learn that the same problem occurred and businesses has an important role to play. in Castle Point a few years ago under a Conservative It is fundamental to note that moneys are taken away Administration. It built what is known locally as “the through the business rate and the supplementary business bunker”, spending millions of pounds in the process. rate, but we have no prospect of any of that supplementary That has proved to be a very expensive waste, it is much business rate being reinvested in Croydon’s economy. underused and local people are still paying for it. We need to deal with the significant issue of trying to improve confidence and reduce the fear of crime in the Mr. Pelling: A worrying trend is being revealed in this centre of Croydon—a justifiable fear, bearing in mind debate. It is incumbent on local authorities to be concerned the number of killings that we have had along the A23 primarily about services, rather than about building corridor—and of trying to leave some money behind. new town halls. If Croydon council desires to move May I call on the Government—I know that the London location, the best way of doing so would be for it to Mayor also has some discretion—to try to use their become a tenant of Stanhope, which has the real desire persuasive powers so that some of that money comes to start developing on the site next to East Croydon back? station. No doubt many Members have taken a flight I am very impressed by the campaign that is being from Gatwick and seen the desolate site next to that run by Max Menon of Allders, the only remaining station, which gives a bad impression of the town. If the Allders store in the country. Calling for some discretion development of that site can begin, that would provide and for moneys to be returned to Croydon means that confidence to others to invest in the town. Such an we can defend an exposed and fragile economy that, approach from the local authority would have more unfortunately, has not been helped by some real lack of vision and would have a multiplier effect on investor vision from the local authority in Croydon. confidence in Croydon. It is also important to stress that local authorities 7.10 pm face great dangers in being obsessed with their own party political propaganda. In many ways, I can often The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for see little difference between what is produced by the Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): chief executive’s office and by the campaign of the We have had a most interesting debate that has, at times, Conservative parliamentary candidate in Croydon, Central. ranged far more widely than the 2010-11 local government A recent example of that could be seen during the settlement and over a far wider time frame. The settlement launch of a petition calling for extra police for Croydon. means that every one of the 421 councils in the nine It is extraordinary that the council should be campaigning English regions will receive an increase in their formula for extra police given that it has discretion to provide grant this year, as they have for the past two years. funding for extra police and that it is of the same party The hour is late and I shall confine myself to thanking as the Mayor of London, who could decide to provide the right hon. and hon. Members who have made such more police to Croydon. Indeed, the local London valuable and interesting contributions to the debate. Assembly member, Steve O’Connell, is also chairman There have been contributions from the hon. Members of the finance sub-committee that could decide to provide for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy), for extra money for police. It is nonsense, and it is an abuse, Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling), for Richmond Park for Croydon council to be spending money on this (Susan Kramer), for Cities of London and Westminster matter, given that at the same time as the council (Mr. Field) and my hon. Friends the Members for launched the petition it was also launched through Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey) and for Wigan e-mails from the Conservative parliamentary candidate. (Mr. Turner), as well as many other hon. Friends who 409 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Business without Debate 410

[Barbara Follett] active service in Malaya during the emergency from 16 June 1948 to 31 July 1960. On 31 August 1957, the took part in a debate that was, on the Government side Government of the UK granted Malaya its independence of the House at least, extraordinarily well attended. In and after then, to resist incursion by the Indonesian deference to the injunction from the Chair, I shall not army, Commonwealth troops fought under a defence mention the concerns about the dubious mathematical treaty signed between the Government of Malaysia and basis of the assertions made by the Conservative Front- the Government of the UK. Those involved in the Bench spokesperson. However, I think that all Members confrontation were awarded a Borneo clasp by the UK present welcome the stability offered by this, the first Government and the Pingat Jasa Malaysia by the ever three-year settlement. I reassure hon. Members Government of Malaysia. that this Government have every intention of having The petition states: another three-year settlement. I hope that it will be as fair and as good as this one. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to bring forward legislation to award an Question put and agreed to. additional rosette, to be attached to the NGSM/GSM medal Resolved, ribbon, to all forces who qualify for active service in Malaya That the Local Government Finance Report (England) 2010-11 between 16th June 1948 and 31st August 1957, in order to (HC 280), which was laid before this House on 20 January, be distinguish between those who served before Malaya’s date of approved. independence and those after; a similar circumstance was recognised by the award of a rosette with the South Atlantic Falklands Medal Ribbon. COUNCIL TAX Following is the full text of the petition: Resolved, That the draft Council Tax Limitation (Maximum Amounts) [The Petition of citizens of the United Kingdom, (England) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 20 Declares that they accept the recognition of the award January, be approved.—(Helen Jones.) of the NGSM/GSM with clasp Malaya to all members of the three Armed Forces of the Commonwealth, approximately Business without Debate 100,000 in number, a high proportion of them being National Servicemen, serving on active service in Malaya DELEGATED LEGISLATION during the emergency from 16th June 1948 to its cessation Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing on 31st of July 1960; on the 31st August 1957 the Order No. 118(6)), Government of the United Kingdom granted Malaya its independence. ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS Further declares that the Malaysian Government was That the draft Electronic Commerce Directive (Hatred against formed in 1963 to include Singapore and the States of Persons on Religious Grounds or the Grounds of Sexual Orientation) Sabah and Sarawak on the Island of Borneo; that the Regulations 2010, which were laid before this House on 5 January, amalgamation of the States began a confrontation with be approved.—(Helen Jones.) the Indonesian Government Army; that to resist the incursion Question agreed to. by the Indonesian Army, under the defence treaty signed between the Government of Malaysia and the Government EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS of the United Kingdom, it was necessary to take up arms Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing by the Commonwealth Forces resulting in an agreement Order No. 119(11)), being reached in August 1966; and that the Government of the United Kingdom awarded the NGSM/GSM with MUTUAL LEGAL ASSISTANCE IN CRIMINAL MATTERS clasp Borneo and the Government of Malaysia awarded BETWEEN THE EU AND JAPAN the Pingat Jasa Malaysia (PJM) to all Commonwealth That this House takes note of European Union Document No. Forces engaged during the confrontation, including all 17708/09, relating to a proposal for a Council Decision on the serving members still engaged on active service in Malaya conclusion of the Agreement between the European Union and post 31st July 1957, disregarding those forces actively Japan on Mutual Legal Assistance in criminal matters (MLA); engaged prior to that date. and supports the EU Council decision to conclude the Agreement in order to establish a formal international framework for MLA The Petition further declares that those who fought and between the EU and Japan which will improve the measures endured the struggle between 1948 and 1957 do not available to combat international and transnational crime.—(Helen qualify for any further recognition for their part in the Jones.) defeat of the Military Army of the Malayan Communist Question agreed to. Party. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of PETITIONS Commons urges the Government to bring forward legislation Malaya (Rosette) to award an additional rosette, to be attached to the NGSM/GSM medal ribbon, to all forces who qualify for 7.13 pm active service in Malaya between 16th June 1948 and 31st August 1957, in order to distinguish between those who Sandra Gidley (Romsey) (LD): The petition of the served before Malaya’s date of independence and those citizens of the UK attracts 12 signatures, supported by after; a similar circumstance was recognised by the award 4,098 of similar sentiment, 433 of which were collected of a rosette with the South Atlantic Falklands Medal by The Southern Daily Echo. The petitioners recognise Ribbon. the award of the naval general service medal and the general service medal with Malaya clasp to approximately And the Petitioners remain, etc.] 100,000 members of the three armed forces who saw [P000432] 411 Business without Debate 3 FEBRUARY 2010 412

Equitable Life (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) Yemen 7.15 pm Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): do now adjourn.—(Helen Jones.) The petition relates to the Government’s response to the parliamentary ombudsman’s reports on Equitable Life. 7.18 pm The petition states: The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): First, I thank you, urges the Government to uphold the constitutional standing of Mr. Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to raise this the Parliamentary Ombudsman by complying in full with the issue in the House. Yemen used to be perceived as being findings and recommendations of her Report upon Equitable in the backwaters of the middle east, but recent events Life. have put it under the international spotlight. Following is the full text of the petition: Before I proceed, let me declare my interest in Yemen, [The Petition of residents of Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock, which is registered in the Register of Members’ Financial Declares that the Petitioners either are or they represent Interests. I am also the chairman of the all-party group or support members, former members or personal on Yemen and have a personal interest to declare. I was representatives of deceased members of the Equitable born in Aden, Yemen, in 1956. My parents had gone Life Assurance Society who have suffered maladministration there for economic reasons from Mumbai, India, and leading to injustice, as found by the Parliamentary settled in the then British-occupied south Yemen. I Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable Life, ordered by spent the first nine years of my life there, before leaving the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July 2008 and with my family to escape the mounting conflict. I still bearing reference number HC 815; and further declares feel strongly attached to that beautiful country and I that the Petitioners or those whom they represent or have vivid memories of my early childhood there. I was support have suffered regulatory failure on the part of the educated at St. Joseph’s convent school, and, as a young public bodies responsible from the year 1992 onwards, but child, I used to sit and watch the ships as they prepared have not received compensation for the resulting losses to go up the Suez canal. and outrage. The last few weeks have seen some very dramatic The Petitioners therefore request that the House of events concerning Yemen. International attention has Commons urges the Government to uphold the constitutional been rapid, and these events continue to unfold on a standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman by complying daily basis. with the findings and recommendations of her Report I want to thank the Yemeni ambassador to London, upon Equitable Life. His Excellency Mohamed Taha Mustafa, for the role And the Petitioners remain, etc.] that he and his predecessors have played in ensuring [P000729] that, despite its size and previous isolation, Yemen is a country that commands the interest of this House and Destitution Among Asylum Seekers this Government. 7.16 pm I also want to thank the members of the all-party Mr. Fabian Hamilton (Leeds, North-East) (Lab): I group—the hon. Members for The Wrekin (Mark should like to present a petition from Mrs. Patricia Pritchard), for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Hooker and the Churches Together in Roundhay, in my Loughton), and for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan), constituency, which has been signed by 181 of my and Lord Lea and Lord Kilclooney—for attending a constituents. meeting that I organised only a week ago with Dr. Abu Bakr al-Qirbi, the Foreign Minister of Yemen, prior to The petition states: the very successful Yemen conference. The Petition of members of Churches Together in Roundhay, Declares that we are deeply concerned about the high levels of I welcomed the Yemen conference, which took place destitution among asylum seekers, especially refused asylum seekers, on 27 January. Our present Prime Minister is the first and in particular that many people have been left in this dire person in his position to have decided to focus, laser situation for prolonged periods. Research in Leeds in 2009, indicates like, on the problems in Yemen and on the country’s that since the Report in 2007, the situation has deteriorated. It importance for regional and global security. I also want demonstrates that destitution happens at all stages of the asylum to thank the Foreign Office and my right hon. Friend process, administrative delays worsen destitution, destitution is the Foreign Secretary for ensuring, before the conference, serious and prolonged, the number of people being made newly destitute is increasing even with the ‘New Asylum Model’—it is that we built up relationships with the country. As a not just a ‘legacy’ problem and entitlement to apply for support result, the conference was very much an end-product of does not mean entitlement to receive support. Destitute people dialogue and assistance that had been going on for may be single or families with children; they are being forced into some time. street homelessness and they have worsening health and mental As I speak in the House tonight, the Minister of health problems. State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. The Petitioners therefore request the House of Commons to ensure its legislation is designed and implemented so as to end the Friend the Member for Bury, South (Mr. Lewis), is destitution of asylum seekers at all stages of the asylum process actually in Sana’a. He went there following the conference so they can contribute to the United Kingdom and provide for in order to continue with the relationship that I have themselves. described. It is for that reason that the response to this And the Petitioners remain, etc. debate will be made by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary [P000723] of State for International Development. I think that the Foreign Office looked hard and far for a Minister to answer the debate, but they are spread all over Britain, if not the world. However, I am glad to see my hon. 413 Yemen3 FEBRUARY 2010 Yemen 414

[Keith Vaz] As well as political reforms, development and counter- radicalisation in Yemen should be our Government’s Friend here, as he has had many discussions with me main focus. Yemen has dwindling oil reserves. It has about Yemen, and has done a great deal of work in his never had oil reserves like those of Saudi Arabia, for Department in respect of international development in example, and the reserves that it had are dwindling. It the country. has little water and has been deprived of international Only today, and despite his very busy schedule, I and aid for decades, even after it was severely affected by the members of the all-party group had a meeting with my repercussions of the first Gulf war. right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. We discussed America recently pledged £62 million to Yemen,which many important issues in connection with Yemen, and is up from zero, its previous support. Focusing aid on I am very grateful for the time that he made available developing education institutions, infrastructure, to us. employment and export diversification is vital. Counter- On Monday, the Foreign Secretary spoke about the radicalisation is intrinsically connected to development need for deeds, not words. He was right. What we need and securing long-term jobs. Some 35 per cent. of are practical steps to be taken now, and pledges of aid Yemenis live below the poverty line, 65 per cent. are to Yemen must be delivered immediately. As the Minister under 25, and 18 per cent. under 18. Therefore a large, knows, we are still waiting for the pledges made at the idle and desperate population is being increasingly wooed 2006 Lancaster house conference to be realised. A total by al-Qaeda and become increasingly vulnerable to its of £3 billion was promised by those who came to activities. London to pledge support for Yemen, but only 7 per Counter-radicalisation seizes terrorism at the root. cent. of that has been paid over so far. The current growth of terrorist networks must be dealt Yemen is a country of legends, and its history is with through immediate action by establishing an effective fascinating. It was rumoured to be the route taken by system of counter-terrorism. This should avoid imposing the three wise men. If that was not the case, it certainly a military presence or giving such an impression to the heralded the start of the frankincense trail. The Queen Yemenis, especially in light of their previous hostility to of Sheba had her palace in Yemen. American involvement in the region. Providing weapons, As the House knows, Ali Abdullah Saleh was elected equipment and intelligence assistance is the most effective President of Yemen at reunification in 1990. I pay way in which Yemen can combat terrorists within its tribute to him for all that he has done for his country. borders. Yemen is situated at a key position on the Saudi For example, Yemen needs help to develop an effective Arabian peninsula. It is strategically placed above the system of verification. Owing to a lack of helicopters, horn of Africa, and lies across the most utilised international Yemeni security forces must rely on reports of nearby shipping route. Its security, and the maintenance of tribal leaders to confirm those dead or wounded after stability there, are of vital interest—not only to Yemen attacks on terrorist hideouts in the mountains. It is but to all countries, both in the region and internationally. important that if al-Qaeda leaders are killed or prevented Political unrest has caused much trouble for the Yemeni from engaging in action, that is independently verified. Government since reunification in 1990. It led to the Therefore the creation and development of an efficient emergence of a separatist movement in the south and system of intelligence and information exchange within the rebellion of a minority sect of Muslims in the north the Yemeni security services is extremely important. that is now referred to as the Houthi rebellion. The The US has 550 suspects on the “most wanted” list, but Yemeni Government are addressing the unrest on both little is known of their whereabouts and the role in sides, while ensuring that unity remains. al-Qaeda of each of these suspects. Although this is a What has concerned us is the recent strengthening of difficult starting point, building a system of counter- terrorist cells in Yemen. This has meant that the Yemeni terrorism for the Yemeni security services will help Government must additionally face an even more dangerous enormously. That is why it is vital that we have dialogue. threat on another front. Terrorists bring the internal Without dialogue, we have real problems. risk of disfranchised Yemenis being enticed into terrorist We must also keep an eye on the areas beyond Yemen’s activities to undermine the Government. Effectively, borders which affect its internal instability through that would rapidly lead to Yemen becoming a failed terrorist infiltration. The development of a lawless zone state— fragmented, drawn into a humanitarian crisis, stretching from northern Kenya, Somalia, Eritrea and and encouraging conflict beyond its borders. the Gulf of Aden to Saudi Arabia, is a real fear. We I know that some have described Yemen as a failed know that extremist groups are already involved in state, and I keep reminding Ministers that it is not a activities in the horn of Africa. We know of the piracy failed state. It has the capacity to become a failed state if that occurs between Somalia and Yemen. It is extremely we fail to support it. As the Minister will know, its important that we provide effective resources for the commitment to democracy is much better than that of Yemeni Government to deal with that. many other countries in the region. However, it is Some of the security issues can be addressed immediately. important that in pushing the case for reform, we do so Sadly, Yemenia Airways, the national airline of Yemen, with the Government of Yemen, who are committed to has had its flights between London and Yemen cancelled reform. They are aware of the need to reform, and they since 20 January. I raised the matter with the Prime are aware that unless there are reforms, there will be Minister today. I understand perfectly the concerns of internal schisms. Tackling corruption and improving the Department for Transport. It wants to make sure co-operation with the Opposition was the first item on that when people board flights on Yemenia or from the agenda, to be achieved through a commitment to other countries, they are properly searched and scanned daily dialogue with the Opposition and by the establishment before they arrive in the United Kingdom. We heard on of a national anti-corruption authority. Tuesday that at Manchester airport and Heathrow, 415 Yemen3 FEBRUARY 2010 Yemen 416 body scanners are to be rolled out. When we go to The Government of Yemen are more than willing to through those airports, Members of the House and co-operate to combat the ills that face their country, everyone else will have to go through a full body scanner. and to deal with counter-terrorism. Economic growth, If that is the case for this country, surely we can give elite compliance and state stability will be welcomed, Yemen one body scanner, so that it can be used at too, so long as they arrive with a good level of non- Sana’a airport. The Foreign Secretary talked about a interference in Yemen’s socio-cultural issues and institutional comprehensive approach, but it is important that we reform. To quote Dr. al-Kurbi, one of the longest-serving look at practical help. We should not wait for reports to Foreign Ministers in the Gulf, who qualified as a doctor be considered by Cabinet Committees; we should act in our country—at Edinburgh university—and therefore immediately to help those in Yemen who are our friends. knows and has great respect of our country: We also need to look at what is happening within our “Yemen has many problems, great challenges and more borders. The President and the Government of Yemen expectations”. have complained on numerous occasions about the We should assist in tackling those challenges, resolving existence on British soil of radio stations that go out of those problems and ensuring that people’s expectations their way to make anti-Yemeni and anti-Government are not in vain. Now that the media frenzy is over, now statements calling for the overthrow of the democratically that the television camera crews have packed their bags elected Government in Yemen. We must do as much as and left the Yemen conference and now that the we can to ensure that our territory—our land—is not international spotlight has grown a little dimmer, I urge used for those purposes. the Minister, despite the huge amount of issues facing Another concern is the British hostages who are held Foreign Office and Department for International in Yemen. Discussions are ongoing, and I thank the Development Ministers, to keep our focus on Yemen. Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, We should help them to help themselves. That would be the hon. Member for Bury, South, who flew to Yemen a truly great legacy for this Government as far as yesterday, for inviting me and other members of the foreign policy is concerned—not dealing with this after all-party group on Yemen to join him on that mission. the event but preventing Yemen from falling into the That was a wonderful gesture in view of the group’s same kind of disrepair and disillusionment as Afghanistan work. Unfortunately, owing to other duties, I could not or Iraq. Because of the respect that Yemenis have for go with him, but he does not need me to accompany our country, this whole goal—the future of this country—is him, because he will do a very good job himself. also in our hands. We want to ensure that there are practical steps, 7.35 pm however, so here is my shopping list, which I have passed on to the Under-Secretary of State for International The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Development, so that he knows what I am shopping for International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): I in today’s debate. There should be funding for development congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for and the security services. Let us not wait any longer; let Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) on securing this debate and us deliver it now. We are doing our bit, but what about on giving the House an opportunity to have this discussion, the other countries that pledged £3 billion four years and I thank him for his kind words. I know that he has a ago? There should also be technical assistance, through genuine and long-standing interest in the future of the provision of weapons and training, so that we can Yemen and its people. That is an interest that the engage the Yemeniforces and they can stop their country Government share, reaffirmed following my visit to the falling into the hands of those who wish to destroy it. country last year. There should be more effective intelligence. We have the As my right hon. Friend pointed out, Yemen is a best intelligence services in the world, so why do we not country that is beset by challenges. Fresh water work with them to provide that help? We should continue resources are rapidly running out, its population is set to do what the Minister is doing so effectively: providing to double within the next 20 years, and unemployment development aid. What he is doing will benefit people already stands at 35 per cent. At the same time, not so much in the short term, although there are governance is weak, and there is ongoing conflict and immediate benefits, but in the long term. Let us try to political tension. In short, we are talking about a country get Yemen admitted to the Gulf Co-operation Council. that has been poor, is poor, and without action will be Let us see whether it can be admitted to the poor for the foreseeable future. Its development and Commonwealth, which it is entitled to join, because humanitarian needs are as significant as they are clear Aden was a British colony. to everyone. In addition, I put to the Prime Minister an idea, That is why the Department for International which I hope that he will take up, to create a task force Development has long recognised Yemen to be a country for Yemen, because he himself knows the importance of desperately in need of international aid and support. the matter. The task force should include some We have stepped up our commitment considerably over parliamentarians, British business men, officials from the past five years; indeed, in 2007 we signed a 10-year the Foreign and Commonwealth office and others— development partnership agreement with the country, anybody who will try to help us keep Yemen stable. It which was a signal of our intent. As the Foreign Secretary would go hand in hand with the measures that Britain noted in his statement to the House on 5 of January, a has already undertaken. I do not call for the appointment renewed UK country strategy for Yemen was developed of an envoy, because that would take too long and what in September 2009. That set out our priorities and, would they do? We have some wonderful Foreign Office crucially, made it clear that we are ready to offer our Ministers who can do that job, but let us support them long-term support. The document and the rationale by creating a task force for Yemen. Let us not leave the behind it met with agreement from right across this situation as it is; let us do something positive. House. 417 Yemen3 FEBRUARY 2010 Yemen 418

[Mr. Michael Foster] Mr. Foster: I hope to come to that point, and indeed I turn now to the very subject of aid. The secretary-general Since then, of course, Yemen has acquired a much of the Gulf Co-operation Council has called a meeting higher profile internationally, with December’s attempted of donors to discuss the barriers to disbursing aid in bombing making headlines around the world. My right Yemen. Securing progress by the Government of Yemen hon. Friend will be aware of the potential role of on key economic and government reforms is critical to al-Qaeda and the related terrorist activity in Yemen, that, as is the capacity of the Government to absorb which are matters of grave concern to the UK Government. funds. The GCC meeting is specifically intended to However, let me be clear. Our view, and that of many identify barriers to the disbursement of Gulf donor Foreign Ministers who gathered in London last week, is funds. that such activity is a symptom, albeit a corrosive As my right hon. Friend acknowledged, disbursement one, of wider problems within Yemen. To treat that has been limited ever since the 2006 London symptom, we need to treat the cause, and that is poverty: consultative group meeting, at which some $5 billion of poverty of resource, poverty of means, and poverty of support was pledged. That money, together with funding opportunity. from other donors, will help Yemendiversify its economy. That is why in recent weeks we have moved quickly to That is particularly crucial given that its oil reserves, see what we could do to encourage the international which represent some 90 per cent. of the country’s community in its support for Yemen.The Foreign Ministers’ export revenue, are expected to run out within the next meeting in London last week, convened by the Prime 10 years. Minister and attended by YemeniPrime Minister Mujawar, In the short term, the Yemeni Government need had three main objectives: first, to forge an international support in delivering basic services and providing jobs consensus about the nature of the challenges that face for their people, and we can help on that. However, they Yemen;secondly, to build an impetus behind the economic themselves need to take the critical decisions that will and governance reform agenda; and thirdly, to improve reverse Yemen’s trajectory by delivering services, stabilising the way that we co-ordinate international aid that goes the economy, tackling terrorist activity and resolving to Yemen. conflict. They need the political will to do that. I know In his statement to the House earlier this week, the that the challenge is immense, but it must be co-ordinated Foreign Secretary outlined what had been agreed at that if we are to stand a chance of success. meeting. I can reiterate today that everybody present Long-term support for Yemen is also needed to help agreed that the main responsibility for tackling Yemen’s it develop new markets, invest in its future and create problems lies with Yemenitself. However, the international job opportunities. However, economic growth will community is ready to stand by Yemen and to offer its also depend in part on Yemen’s ability to resolve conflict support, both in addressing the challenges presented by and strengthen its governance, including by tackling al-Qaeda, including through enforcing all relevant United corruption. Conflict can disrupt internal trade and Nations sanctions, and in helping the Government to discourage investment. Indeed, the evidence that we tackle the political, social, governance and economic have suggests that it can reduce a country’s growth by challenges that they face. more than 2 per cent. The agenda is both short term and long term. Short-term We do not want Yemen to fail. Its problems are support will be provided through a new Friends of complex and will be addressed only through concerted Yemen Group, which will act as a kind of critical friend, and sustained effort on the part of the international ready to challenge, question and advise the Yemeni community and, most importantly, on the part of Yemen Government. This will be particularly important as itself. Yemen faces up to some tough decisions on how and where it should focus its energies. The first meeting of Keith Vaz: Obviously my hon. Friend was not at the that group will take place in the Gulf in late March, and meeting with the Prime Minister, because I know he has it will discuss how Yemen can best deliver much-needed his own engagements. Will he consider the idea of a economic and governance reforms and tackle the challenges taskforce on Yemen, which would deal not only with and instability that it faces. Government-to-Government contact but with people- During the London meeting, the Yemeni Government to-people contact? There are many Yemenis in this and the International Monetary Fund reaffirmed their country. As he knows, I am not a Yemeni—I am of agreement to talks to establish an IMF programme for Indian origin, although I was born in Yemen. However, Yemen. That is extremely encouraging and should help there are many Yemenis in places such as Cardiff, Yemenidentify ways to tackle some of the most immediate the Foreign Secretary’s constituency of South Shields economic problems, including the burden placed on its and elsewhere. It will be helpful if we can provide budget by national fuel subsidies and the civil service something more than just Government-to-Government wage bill. If that process is successful, it should encourage contact, especially as far as trade and industry are other donors to align their funding accordingly, potentially concerned. making funding streams more effective. Keith Vaz: I thank my hon. Friend for what he has Mr. Foster: I accept totally what my right hon. Friend said so far, but I still cannot understand how, after the says about the contacts that exist in the UK and our conference that we hosted at Lancaster house in good will towards Yemen. I will consider his suggestion November 2006—a wonderful decision by the Government, and also offer him opportunities to raise it with others and we have always hosted such conferences—£3 billion in the very near future. was pledged but only 7 per cent. has been paid. What Yemen has many friends beyond the UK, including has happened to the other 93 per cent.? Who is not the United States, the European Union and the GCC. paying? Together with those partners, we stand ready to help 419 Yemen3 FEBRUARY 2010 Yemen 420

Yemenand its people. Activity in recent weeks is testament Members with a more detailed briefing on our work in to that. We need now to maintain that momentum so Yemen, and I will ensure that he is notified of the time that reform can be achieved, aid unlocked and a future and date of that meeting. secured. Question put and agreed to. I repeat my thanks to my right hon. Friend for raising 7.44 pm this important topic. We have plans in place to provide House adjourned. 421 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Deferred Divisions 422

Deferred Divisions Fabricant, Michael Humble, Mrs. Joan Fitzpatrick, Jim Hunter, Mark Flint, rh Caroline Hutton, rh Mr. John EU ENLARGEMENT STRATEGY Flynn, Paul Iddon, Dr. Brian That this House takes note of European Union Document Follett, Barbara Illsley, Mr. Eric No. 14513/09, Commission Communication on Enlargement Strategy Foster, Mr. Don Ingram, rh Mr. Adam and Main Challenges 2009-10; and supports the Government’s Foster, Mr. Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw policy that Turkey, Croatia, Iceland and all the countries of the (Worcester) Jack, rh Mr. Michael Western Balkans should be able to join the EU when they meet Foster, Michael Jabez Jackson, Mr. Stewart the criteria. (Hastings and Rye) James, Mrs. Siân C. The House divided: Ayes 403, Noes 20. Fox, Dr. Liam Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Division No. 69] Francis, Dr. Hywel Jenkins, Mr. Brian Francois, Mr. Mark Johnson, rh Alan AYES Fraser, Christopher Johnson, Ms Diana R. Gale, Mr. Roger Jones, Mr. David Abbott, Ms Diane Burt, Alistair Gapes, Mike Jones, Helen Afriyie, Adam Burt, Lorely Garnier, Mr. Edward Jones, Mr. Kevan Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Butler, Ms Dawn Gauke, Mr. David Jones, Mr. Martyn Alexander, Danny Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gerrard, Mr. Neil Jowell, rh Tessa Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cable, Dr. Vincent Gibb, Mr. Nick Joyce, Mr. Eric Anderson, Mr. David Cameron, rh Mr. David Gidley, Sandra Keeble, Ms Sally Anderson, Janet Campbell, Mr. Alan Gilroy, Linda Keeley, Barbara Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Goggins, rh Paul Keen, Alan Armstrong, rh Hilary Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Goldsworthy, Julia Keen, Ann Atkins, Charlotte Caton, Mr. Martin Goodman, Helen Keetch, Mr. Paul Atkinson, Mr. Peter Cawsey, Mr. Ian Goodman, Mr. Paul Kelly, rh Ruth Austin, Mr. Ian Challen, Colin Goodwill, Mr. Robert Kemp, Mr. Fraser Austin, John Chapman, Ben Gray, Mr. James Key, Robert Bacon, Mr. Richard Clapham, Mr. Michael Greening, Justine Kidney, Mr. David Bailey, Mr. Adrian Clappison, Mr. James Greenway, Mr. John Kirkbride, Miss Julie Bain, Mr. William Clark, Greg Grieve, Mr. Dominic Knight, rh Jim Baker, Norman Clark, Ms Katy Griffith, Nia Kumar, Dr. Ashok Baldry, Tony Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Grogan, Mr. John Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Balls, rh Ed Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hague, rh Mr. William Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Banks, Gordon Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hain, rh Mr. Peter Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Barker, Gregory Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hall, Patrick Lamb, Norman Barlow, Ms Celia Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hammond, Mr. Philip Lammy, rh Mr. David Baron, Mr. John Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hammond, Stephen Laxton, Mr. Bob Barrett, John Coffey, Ann Hancock, Mr. Mike Lazarowicz, Mark Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Connarty, Michael Hanson, rh Mr. David Lepper, David Begg, Miss Anne Cook, Frank Harper, Mr. Mark Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Beith, rh Sir Alan Cooper, Rosie Harris, Mr. Tom Lewis, Dr. Julian Bell, Sir Stuart Cooper, rh Yvette Havard, Mr. Dai Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Bellingham, Mr. Henry Corbyn, Jeremy Hayes, Mr. John Linton, Martin Benn, rh Hilary Cormack, Sir Patrick Heald, Mr. Oliver Lloyd, Tony Benyon, Mr. Richard Crabb, Mr. Stephen Healey, rh John Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Beresford, Sir Paul Crausby, Mr. David Heath, Mr. David Loughton, Tim Berry, Roger Creagh, Mary Hemming, John Luff, Peter Binley, Mr. Brian Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hendry, Charles Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Blackman, Liz Cunningham, Tony Hepburn, Mr. Stephen MacNeil, Mr. Angus Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Curry, rh Mr. David Hermon, Lady Mactaggart, Fiona Blizzard, Mr. Bob Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Hesford, Stephen Main, Anne Blunkett, rh Mr. David Davey, Mr. Edward Heyes, David Malins, Mr. Humfrey Blunt, Mr. Crispin David, Mr. Wayne Hill, rh Keith Mallaber, Judy Bone, Mr. Peter Davidson, Mr. Ian Hodge, rh Margaret Mann, John Borrow, Mr. David S. Dean, Mrs. Janet Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Marsden, Mr. Gordon Boswell, Mr. Tim Denham, rh Mr. John Holloway, Mr. Adam Mason, John Bottomley, Peter Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Holmes, Paul Mates, rh Mr. Michael Brady, Mr. Graham Dismore, Mr. Andrew Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey May, rh Mrs. Theresa Brake, Tom Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Hope, Phil McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Brazier, Mr. Julian Dobbin, Jim Hopkins, Kelvin McCabe, Steve Brokenshire, James Dobson, rh Frank Horam, Mr. John McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Brooke, Annette Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Horwood, Martin McGovern, Mr. Jim Brown, Lyn Dorries, Nadine Hosie, Stewart McGrady, Mr. Eddie Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Dowd, Jim Howarth, David McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Brown, Mr. Russell Duddridge, James Howarth, rh Mr. George McIntosh, Miss Anne Browne, rh Des Duncan, Alan Howarth, Mr. Gerald McIsaac, Shona Browne, Mr. Jeremy Dunne, Mr. Philip Howell, John McKechin, Ann Browning, Angela Efford, Clive Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Bryant, Chris Engel, Natascha Hughes, rh Beverley McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Burrowes, Mr. David Ennis, Jeff Hughes, Simon Meale, Mr. Alan Burstow, Mr. Paul Evennett, Mr. David Huhne, Chris Merron, Gillian 423 Deferred Divisions3 FEBRUARY 2010 Deferred Divisions 424

Michael, rh Alun Sheridan, Jim Wyatt, Derek Younger-Ross, Richard Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Simmonds, Mark Young, rh Sir George Miliband, rh David Simon, Mr. Siôn Miliband, rh Edward Simpson, Mr. Keith NOES Miller, Andrew Slaughter, Mr. Andy Miller, Mrs. Maria Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Cash, Mr. William McCrea, Dr. William Milton, Anne Smith, Chloe Chope, Mr. Christopher McDonnell, John Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Smith, rh Jacqui Davies, Mr. Dai Pelling, Mr. Andrew Moffatt, Laura Smith, Sir Robert Davies, Philip Simpson, David Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Snelgrove, Anne Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Skinner, Mr. Dennis Moore, Mr. Michael Soames, Mr. Nicholas Drew, Mr. David Spink, Bob Morden, Jessica Southworth, Helen Field, rh Mr. Frank Taylor, Dr. Richard Morgan, Julie Spellar, rh Mr. John Hoey, Kate Walker, Mr. Charles Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Hollobone, Mr. Philip Winterton, Ann Moss, Mr. Malcolm Spicer, Sir Michael Laws, Mr. David Winterton, Sir Nicholas Mudie, Mr. George Spring, Mr. Richard Mulholland, Greg Stanley, rh Sir John Question accordingly agreed to. Mundell, David Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Munn, Meg Stewart, Ian Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Stoate, Dr. Howard INFRASTRUCTURE PLANNING Murrison, Dr. Andrew Straw, rh Mr. Jack That the draft Infrastructure Planning (Decisions) Regulations Naysmith, Dr. Doug Streeter, Mr. Gary 2010, which were laid before this House on 5 January, be approved. Neill, Robert Stuart, Ms Gisela The House divided: Ayes 231, Noes 196. Newmark, Mr. Brooks Stuart, Mr. Graham Division No. 70] O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry O’Hara, Mr. Edward Swinson, Jo Olner, Mr. Bill Swire, Mr. Hugo AYES Öpik, Lembit Syms, Mr. Robert Abbott, Ms Diane Cooper, rh Yvette Osborne, Mr. George Tami, Mark Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Crausby, Mr. David Osborne, Sandra Tapsell, Sir Peter Anderson, Mr. David Creagh, Mary Ottaway, Richard Taylor, Ms Dari Anderson, Janet Cunningham, Mr. Jim Owen, Albert Taylor, Mr. Ian Armstrong, rh Hilary Cunningham, Tony Paterson, Mr. Owen Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Atkins, Charlotte Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Pearson, Ian Timpson, Mr. Edward Austin, Mr. Ian David, Mr. Wayne Penning, Mike Tipping, Paddy Austin, John Davidson, Mr. Ian Penrose, John Todd, Mr. Mark Bailey, Mr. Adrian Davies, Mr. Dai Pickles, Mr. Eric Touhig, rh Mr. Don Bain, Mr. William Dean, Mrs. Janet Plaskitt, Mr. James Tredinnick, David Balls, rh Ed Denham, rh Mr. John Pound, Stephen Trickett, Jon Banks, Gordon Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Prentice, Bridget Truswell, Mr. Paul Barlow, Ms Celia Dismore, Mr. Andrew Price, Adam Turner, Dr. Desmond Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dobbin, Jim Prisk, Mr. Mark Turner, Mr. Neil Begg, Miss Anne Dobson, rh Frank Prosser, Gwyn Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Bell, Sir Stuart Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Pugh, Dr. John Vaizey, Mr. Edward Benn, rh Hilary Dowd, Jim Purchase, Mr. Ken Vara, Mr. Shailesh Berry, Roger Efford, Clive Randall, Mr. John Vaz, rh Keith Blackman, Liz Engel, Natascha Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Walley, Joan Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Ennis, Jeff Reed, Mr. Jamie Waltho, Lynda Blizzard, Mr. Bob Field, rh Mr. Frank Reid, Mr. Alan Waterson, Mr. Nigel Blunkett, rh Mr. David Fitzpatrick, Jim Rennie, Willie Watkinson, Angela Borrow, Mr. David S. Flint, rh Caroline Riordan, Mrs. Linda Watts, Mr. Dave Brown, Lyn Flynn, Paul Robathan, Mr. Andrew Webb, Steve Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Follett, Barbara Robertson, Angus Weir, Mr. Mike Brown, Mr. Russell Foster, Mr. Michael Robertson, Hugh Whitehead, Dr. Alan Browne, rh Des (Worcester) Robertson, John Wiggin, Bill Bryant, Chris Foster, Michael Jabez Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Willetts, Mr. David Butler, Ms Dawn (Hastings and Rye) Rogerson, Dan Williams, rh Mr. Alan Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Francis, Dr. Hywel Rooney, Mr. Terry Williams, Mrs. Betty Campbell, Mr. Alan Gapes, Mike Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Hywel Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Gerrard, Mr. Neil Roy, Mr. Frank Williams, Stephen Caton, Mr. Martin Gilroy, Linda Roy, Lindsay Willis, Mr. Phil Cawsey, Mr. Ian Goggins, rh Paul Ruane, Chris Willott, Jenny Challen, Colin Goodman, Helen Ruffley, Mr. David Wills, rh Mr. Michael Chapman, Ben Griffith, Nia Russell, Bob Wilson, Phil Clapham, Mr. Michael Grogan, Mr. John Salter, Martin Wilson, Mr. Rob Clark, Ms Katy Hain, rh Mr. Peter Sanders, Mr. Adrian Winnick, Mr. David Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hall, Patrick Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hanson, rh Mr. David Seabeck, Alison Wishart, Pete Coaker, Mr. Vernon Harris, Mr. Tom Selous, Andrew Wright, Mr. Anthony Coffey, Ann Havard, Mr. Dai Shapps, Grant Wright, David Connarty, Michael Healey, rh John Sharma, Mr. Virendra Wright, Jeremy Cook, Frank Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Sheerman, Mr. Barry Wright, Dr. Tony Cooper, Rosie Hesford, Stephen 425 Deferred Divisions3 FEBRUARY 2010 Deferred Divisions 426

Heyes, David Munn, Meg NOES Hill, rh Keith Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Afriyie, Adam Greening, Justine Hodge, rh Margaret Naysmith, Dr. Doug Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Greenway, Mr. John Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon O’Hara, Mr. Edward Alexander, Danny Grieve, Mr. Dominic Hoey, Kate Olner, Mr. Bill Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Hague, rh Mr. William Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Osborne, Sandra Atkinson, Mr. Peter Hammond, Mr. Philip Hope, Phil Owen, Albert Bacon, Mr. Richard Hammond, Stephen Hopkins, Kelvin Pearson, Ian Baker, Norman Hancock, Mr. Mike Hosie, Stewart Plaskitt, Mr. James Baldry, Tony Harper, Mr. Mark Howarth, rh Mr. George Pound, Stephen Barker, Gregory Hayes, Mr. John Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Prentice, Bridget Baron, Mr. John Heald, Mr. Oliver Hughes, rh Beverley Prentice, Mr. Gordon Barrett, John Heath, Mr. David Humble, Mrs. Joan Prosser, Gwyn Beith, rh Sir Alan Hemming, John Hutton, rh Mr. John Purchase, Mr. Ken Bellingham, Mr. Henry Hendry, Charles Iddon, Dr. Brian Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Benyon, Mr. Richard Hermon, Lady Illsley, Mr. Eric Reed, Mr. Jamie Beresford, Sir Paul Hollobone, Mr. Philip Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Riordan, Mrs. Linda Binley, Mr. Brian Holloway, Mr. Adam Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, Angus Blunt, Mr. Crispin Holmes, Paul James, Mrs. Siân C. Robertson, John Bone, Mr. Peter Horam, Mr. John Jenkins, Mr. Brian Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Boswell, Mr. Tim Horwood, Martin Johnson, rh Alan Rooney, Mr. Terry Bottomley, Peter Howarth, David Johnson, Ms Diana R. Roy, Mr. Frank Brady, Mr. Graham Howarth, Mr. Gerald Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Brake, Tom Howell, John Jones, Mr. Kevan Ruane, Chris Brazier, Mr. Julian Hughes, Simon Jones, Mr. Martyn Salter, Martin Brokenshire, James Huhne, Chris Jowell, rh Tessa Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Brooke, Annette Hunter, Mark Joyce, Mr. Eric Seabeck, Alison Browne, Mr. Jeremy Jack, rh Mr. Michael Keeble, Ms Sally Sharma, Mr. Virendra Browning, Angela Jackson, Mr. Stewart Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr. Barry Burrowes, Mr. David Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Keen, Alan Sheridan, Jim Burstow, Mr. Paul Jones, Mr. David Keen, Ann Simon, Mr. Siôn Burt, Alistair Keetch, Mr. Paul Kelly, rh Ruth Skinner, Mr. Dennis Burt, Lorely Key, Robert Kemp, Mr. Fraser Slaughter, Mr. Andy Cable, Dr. Vincent Kirkbride, Miss Julie Kidney, Mr. David Smith, rh Angela E. Cameron, rh Mr. David Knight, rh Mr. Greg Knight, rh Jim (Basildon) Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Kumar, Dr. Ashok Smith, Geraldine Cash, Mr. William Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Smith, rh Jacqui Chope, Mr. Christopher Lamb, Norman Lammy, rh Mr. David Snelgrove, Anne Clappison, Mr. James Laws, Mr. David Laxton, Mr. Bob Southworth, Helen Clark, Greg Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Lazarowicz, Mark Spellar, rh Mr. John Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Lewis, Dr. Julian Lepper, David Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Linton, Martin Stewart, Ian Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Ian Lloyd, Tony Stoate, Dr. Howard Corbyn, Jeremy Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Mactaggart, Fiona Straw, rh Mr. Jack Cormack, Sir Patrick Loughton, Tim Mallaber, Judy Stringer, Graham Crabb, Mr. Stephen Luff, Peter Mann, John Stuart, Ms Gisela Curry, rh Mr. David Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Marris, Rob Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Davey, Mr. Edward Main, Anne Marsden, Mr. Gordon Tami, Mark Davies, Philip Malins, Mr. Humfrey Mason, John Taylor, Ms Dari Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Mates, rh Mr. Michael McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey May, rh Mrs. Theresa McCabe, Steve Tipping, Paddy M. McCrea, Dr. William McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Todd, Mr. Mark Dorries, Nadine McDonnell, John McGovern, Mr. Jim Touhig, rh Mr. Don Drew, Mr. David McIntosh, Miss Anne McGrady, Mr. Eddie Trickett, Jon Duddridge, James McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Truswell, Mr. Paul Duncan, Alan Miller, Mrs. Maria McIsaac, Shona Turner, Dr. Desmond Dunne, Mr. Philip Milton, Anne McKechin, Ann Turner, Mr. Neil Evennett, Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. Andrew McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Vaz, rh Keith Fabricant, Michael Moore, Mr. Michael Meale, Mr. Alan Walley, Joan Field, Mr. Mark Moss, Mr. Malcolm Merron, Gillian Waltho, Lynda Foster, Mr. Don Mulholland, Greg Michael, rh Alun Watts, Mr. Dave Fox, Dr. Liam Murrison, Dr. Andrew Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Whitehead, Dr. Alan Francois, Mr. Mark Neill, Robert Miliband, rh David Williams, rh Mr. Alan Fraser, Christopher Newmark, Mr. Brooks Miliband, rh Edward Williams, Mrs. Betty Gale, Mr. Roger O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Miller, Andrew Wills, rh Mr. Michael Garnier, Mr. Edward Öpik, Lembit Moffatt, Laura Wilson, Phil Gauke, Mr. David Osborne, Mr. George Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Winnick, Mr. David Gibb, Mr. Nick Ottaway, Richard Morden, Jessica Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Gidley, Sandra Paterson, Mr. Owen Morgan, Julie Wright, Mr. Anthony Goldsworthy, Julia Pelling, Mr. Andrew Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Wright, David Goodman, Mr. Paul Penning, Mike Mudie, Mr. George Wright, Dr. Tony Goodwill, Mr. Robert Penrose, John Mullin, Mr. Chris Wyatt, Derek Gray, Mr. James Pickles, Mr. Eric 427 Deferred Divisions3 FEBRUARY 2010 Deferred Divisions 428

Price, Adam Stuart, Mr. Graham Blackman-Woods, Dr. Healey, rh John Prisk, Mr. Mark Swinson, Jo Roberta Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Pugh, Dr. John Swire, Mr. Hugo Blizzard, Mr. Bob Hesford, Stephen Randall, Mr. John Syms, Mr. Robert Blunkett, rh Mr. David Heyes, David Redwood, rh Mr. John Tapsell, Sir Peter Borrow, Mr. David S. Hill, rh Keith Reid, Mr. Alan Taylor, Mr. Ian Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Hodge, rh Margaret Rennie, Willie Timpson, Mr. Edward Brown, Lyn Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Robathan, Mr. Andrew Tredinnick, David Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Hoey, Kate Robertson, Hugh Turner, Mr. Andrew Brown, Mr. Russell Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Rogerson, Dan Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Browne, rh Des Hope, Phil Rosindell, Andrew Vaizey, Mr. Edward Bryant, Chris Howarth, rh Mr. George Ruffley, Mr. David Vara, Mr. Shailesh Butler, Ms Dawn Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Russell, Bob Walker, Mr. Charles Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Hughes, rh Beverley Sanders, Mr. Adrian Waterson, Mr. Nigel Campbell, Mr. Alan Humble, Mrs. Joan Selous, Andrew Watkinson, Angela Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hutton, rh Mr. John Shapps, Grant Webb, Steve Caton, Mr. Martin Iddon, Dr. Brian Simmonds, Mark Wiggin, Bill Cawsey, Mr. Ian Illsley, Mr. Eric Simpson, David Willetts, Mr. David Challen, Colin Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Simpson, Mr. Keith Williams, Hywel Chapman, Ben Irranca-Davies, Huw Smith, Chloe Williams, Stephen Clapham, Mr. Michael James, Mrs. Siân Smith, Sir Robert Willis, Mr. Phil Clark, Ms Katy C. Soames, Mr. Nicholas Willott, Jenny Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Jenkins, Mr. Brian Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Wilson, Mr. Rob Clarke,rhMr.Tom Johnson, rh Alan Spicer, Sir Michael Winterton, Ann Coaker, Mr. Vernon Johnson, Ms Diana Spink, Bob Winterton, Sir Nicholas Coffey, Ann R. Spring, Mr. Richard Wright, Jeremy Connarty, Michael Jones, Helen Stanley, rh Sir John Young, rh Sir George Cook, Frank Jones, Mr. Kevan Streeter, Mr. Gary Younger-Ross, Richard Cooper, Rosie Jones, Mr. Martyn Cooper, rh Yvette Jowell, rh Tessa Question accordingly agreed to. Corbyn, Jeremy Joyce, Mr. Eric Crausby, Mr. David Keeble, Ms Sally Creagh, Mary Keeley, Barbara FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT Cryer, Mrs. Ann Keen, Alan That this House takes note of an unnumbered explanatory Cunningham, Mr. Jim Keen, Ann memorandum from HM Treasury dated 2 December 2009 on the Cunningham, Tony Kelly, rh Ruth European Court of Auditors’ 2008 Annual Report, an unnumbered Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Kemp, Mr. Fraser Explanatory Memorandum from the Department for International David, Mr. Wayne Kidney, Mr. David Development dated 3 December 2009 on the European Court of Davidson, Mr. Ian Knight, rh Jim Auditors Annual Report on the activities funded by the seventh, Davies, Mr. Dai Kumar, Dr. Ashok eighth, ninth and tenth European Development Funds, concerning Dean, Mrs. Janet Ladyman, Dr. Stephen the financial year 2008, European Union Document No. 12139/09 Denham, rh Mr. John Lammy, rh Mr. David and Addenda 1 and 2 on the Protection of the financial interests Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Laxton, Mr. Bob of the Communities, and unnumbered Explanatory Memorandum Dismore, Mr. Andrew Lazarowicz, Mark from HM Treasury dated 18 August 2009 on the European Dobbin, Jim Lepper, David Anti-Fraud Office’s ninth activity report for the period 1 January Dobson, rh Frank Linton, Martin to 31 December 2008, European Union Document No. 12668/09 Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Lloyd, Tony and Addendum 1, Commission Report on the Annual report to Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona the discharge authority on internal audits carried out in 2008, European Union Document No. 14998/09 and Addendum 1, a Efford, Clive Mallaber, Judy Commission Report to the European Parliament on the follow-up Engel, Natascha Mann, John to 2007 Discharge Decisions (Summary)—European Parliament Ennis, Jeff Marris, Rob Resolutions, European Union Document No. 16632/09, European Field, rh Mr. Frank Marsden, Mr. Gordon Court of Auditors Special Report on delegating implementing Fitzpatrick, Jim McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas tasks to executive agencies, European Union Document No. 17588/09, Flint, rh Caroline McCabe, Steve Commission Report to the Council on the follow-up to 2007 Flynn, Paul McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Discharge Decisions (Summary)—Council recommendations; and Follett, Barbara McGovern, Mr. Jim supports the Government’s promotion of measures to improve Foster, Mr. Michael McGrady, Mr. Eddie the level of assurance given on the Community budget. (Worcester) McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne The House divided: Ayes 230, Noes 202. Foster, Michael Jabez McIsaac, Shona (Hastings and Rye) McKechin, Ann Division No. 71] Francis, Dr. Hywel McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Gapes, Mike Meale, Mr. Alan AYES Gerrard, Mr. Neil Merron, Gillian Abbott, Ms Diane Balls, rh Ed Gilroy, Linda Michael, rh Alun Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Banks, Gordon Goggins, rh Paul Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Anderson, Mr. David Barlow, Ms Celia Goodman, Helen Miliband, rh David Anderson, Janet Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Griffith, Nia Miliband, rh Edward Armstrong, rh Hilary Grogan, Mr. John Miller, Andrew Begg, Miss Anne Atkins, Charlotte Hain, rh Mr. Peter Moffatt, Laura Bell, Sir Stuart Austin, Mr. Ian Hall, Patrick Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Austin, John Benn, rh Hilary Hanson, rh Mr. David Morden, Jessica Bailey, Mr. Adrian Berry, Roger Harris, Mr. Tom Morgan, Julie Bain, Mr. William Blackman, Liz Havard, Mr. Dai Morley, rh Mr. Elliot 429 Deferred Divisions3 FEBRUARY 2010 Deferred Divisions 430

Mudie, Mr. George Smith, rh Jacqui Gibb, Mr. Nick O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Mullin, Mr. Chris Snelgrove, Anne Gidley, Sandra Öpik, Lembit Munn, Meg Southworth, Helen Goldsworthy, Julia Osborne, Mr. George Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Spellar, rh Mr. John Goodman, Mr. Paul Ottaway, Richard Naysmith, Dr. Doug Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Goodwill, Mr. Robert Paterson, Mr. Owen O’Hara, Mr. Edward Stewart, Ian Gray, Mr. James Pelling, Mr. Andrew Olner, Mr. Bill Stoate, Dr. Howard Greening, Justine Penning, Mike Osborne, Sandra Straw, rh Mr. Jack Greenway, Mr. John Penrose, John Owen, Albert Stringer, Graham Grieve, Mr. Dominic Pickles, Mr. Eric Pearson, Ian Stuart, Ms Gisela Hague, rh Mr. William Price, Adam Plaskitt, Mr. James Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Hammond, Mr. Philip Prisk, Mr. Mark Pound, Stephen Tami, Mark Hammond, Stephen Pugh, Dr. John Prentice, Bridget Taylor, Ms Dari Hancock, Mr. Mike Randall, Mr. John Prentice, Mr. Gordon Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Harper, Mr. Mark Redwood, rh Mr. John Prosser, Gwyn Tipping, Paddy Hayes, Mr. John Reid, Mr. Alan Purchase, Mr. Ken Todd, Mr. Mark Heald, Mr. Oliver Rennie, Willie Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Touhig, rh Mr. Don Heath, Mr. David Robathan, Mr. Andrew Reed, Mr. Jamie Trickett, Jon Hemming, John Robertson, Angus Riordan, Mrs. Linda Truswell, Mr. Paul Hendry, Charles Robertson, Hugh Robertson, John Turner, Dr. Desmond Hollobone, Mr. Philip Rogerson, Dan Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Turner, Mr. Neil Holloway, Mr. Adam Rosindell, Andrew Rooney, Mr. Terry Vaz, rh Keith Holmes, Paul Ruffley, Mr. David Roy, Mr. Frank Walley, Joan Horam, Mr. John Russell, Bob Roy, Lindsay Waltho, Lynda Horwood, Martin Sanders, Mr. Adrian Ruane, Chris Watts, Mr. Dave Hosie, Stewart Selous, Andrew Salter, Martin Whitehead, Dr. Alan Howarth, David Shapps, Grant Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Williams, rh Mr. Alan Howarth, Mr. Gerald Simmonds, Mark Seabeck, Alison Williams, Mrs. Betty Howell, John Simpson, David Sharma, Mr. Virendra Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hughes, Simon Simpson, Mr. Keith Sheerman, Mr. Barry Wilson, Phil Huhne, Chris Smith, Chloe Sheridan, Jim Winnick, Mr. David Hunter, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Simon, Mr. Siôn Winterton, rh Ms Jack, rh Mr. Michael Soames, Mr. Nicholas Skinner, Mr. Dennis Rosie Jackson, Mr. Stewart Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Slaughter, Mr. Andy Wright, Mr. Anthony Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Spicer, Sir Michael Smith, rh Angela E. Wright, David Jones, Mr. David Spink, Bob (Basildon) Wright, Dr. Tony Keetch, Mr. Paul Spring, Mr. Richard Smith, Geraldine Wyatt, Derek Key, Robert Stanley, rh Sir John Kirkbride, Miss Julie Streeter, Mr. Gary NOES Knight, rh Mr. Greg Stuart, Mr. Graham Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Swinson, Jo Afriyie, Adam Cameron, rh Mr. David Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Swire, Mr. Hugo Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Lamb, Norman Syms, Mr. Robert Alexander, Danny Cash, Mr. William Laws, Mr. David Tapsell, Sir Peter Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Chope, Mr. Christopher Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Taylor, Mr. Ian Atkinson, Mr. Peter Clappison, Mr. James Lewis, Dr. Julian Taylor, Dr. Richard Bacon, Mr. Richard Clark, Greg Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Timpson, Mr. Edward Baker, Norman Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Tredinnick, David Baldry, Tony Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Loughton, Tim Turner, Mr. Andrew Barker, Gregory Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Luff, Peter Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Baron, Mr. John Cormack, Sir Patrick Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Vaizey, Mr. Edward Barrett, John Crabb, Mr. Stephen MacNeil, Mr. Angus Vara, Mr. Shailesh Beith, rh Sir Alan Curry, rh Mr. David Main, Anne Walker, Mr. Charles Bellingham, Mr. Henry Davey, Mr. Edward Malins, Mr. Humfrey Waterson, Mr. Nigel Benyon, Mr. Richard Davies, Philip Mason, John Watkinson, Angela Beresford, Sir Paul Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Mates, rh Mr. Michael Webb, Steve Binley, Mr. Brian Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey May, rh Mrs. Theresa Weir, Mr. Mike Blunt, Mr. Crispin M. McCrea, Dr. William Wiggin, Bill Bone, Mr. Peter Dorries, Nadine McDonnell, John Willetts, Mr. David Boswell, Mr. Tim Drew, Mr. David McIntosh, Miss Anne Williams, Hywel Bottomley, Peter Duddridge, James McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Williams, Stephen Brady, Mr. Graham Duncan, Alan Miller, Mrs. Maria Willis, Mr. Phil Brake, Tom Dunne, Mr. Philip Milton, Anne Willott, Jenny Brazier, Mr. Julian Evennett, Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Wilson, Mr. Rob Brokenshire, James Fabricant, Michael Moore, Mr. Michael Winterton, Ann Brooke, Annette Field, Mr. Mark Moss, Mr. Malcolm Winterton, Sir Nicholas Browne, Mr. Jeremy Foster, Mr. Don Mulholland, Greg Wishart, Pete Browning, Angela Fox, Dr. Liam Mundell, David Murrison, Dr. Andrew Wright, Jeremy Burrowes, Mr. David Francois, Mr. Mark Neill, Robert Young, rh Sir George Burstow, Mr. Paul Fraser, Christopher Newmark, Mr. Brooks Younger-Ross, Richard Burt, Alistair Gale, Mr. Roger Burt, Lorely Garnier, Mr. Edward Cable, Dr. Vincent Gauke, Mr. David Question accordingly agreed to. 73WH 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 74WH

hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Westminster Hall Ruane), whose specialist subject on “Mastermind” would be changes to the electoral roll, so I will not dwell on Wednesday 3 February 2010 that, although I am sure that he will elucidate it in greater detail if he catches your eye, Mr. Wilshire. I want to say something important right at the outset. [MR.DAVID WILSHIRE in the Chair] Irrespective of whatever criticisms I may make, I strongly believe that the electoral system in this country, where Returning Officers (Accountability) politicians do not run elections, is the right one. Countries where politicians have a direct and controlling influence 9.30 am over the administration of elections inevitably end up with intimidation, corruption and the decaying of Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): There is a slight democracy. Our system, in which politicians set the problem in that there is about half a minute’s difference broad legislative framework for elections but do not between the time shown on the clocks and the time actually administer them, is surely the right one. shown on the annunciators, so let me make it clear that I am working from the time on the annunciators. Inevitably, that arrangement contains a degree of Before I call Mr. Cairns, let me also explain that I tension. To what extent should Parliament be prescriptive hope to call the Front-Bench spokesmen at 10.30 am so in the rules that it sets out? To what degree should we that they will be able to speak for 10 minutes each. I leave matters to professional election administrators? hope that Members can help me with that. I should add The answers at either extreme are obvious. Parliament that when I arrived, the sheet of paper indicating which should legislate for the voting system; returning Members want to speak was blank. I work on the officers should decide how the count is managed. Parliament assumption that those who turn up to these debates should determine who has the franchise; election usually do so because they want to speak. If we count officers should maintain and update the register. Parliament heads, we will see that a bit of self-discipline will probably should set out the criteria for disabled access to polling enable me to call everyone who wants to speak. I call places; local officials should decide on their location. Mr. Cairns. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I congratulate The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury my hon. Friend on securing the debate. He is right that (Mr. Frank Roy) rose— there is no political interference by central Government in the work of local authority electoral registration David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): You need to call the officers. Is he aware, however, that there is some political Whip, Mr. Wilshire. interference at a local level? One example is Islington council in London. The Labour group there asked the Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): I am sorry. You can council’s Liberal Democrat leader to put money together see the state I am in this morning. I consider myself told for an electoral registration drive before the local elections, off. but he refused point blank, saying, “This is how we win elections.”There is therefore scope for political interference Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting at local level because budgets can be influenced. be now adjourned.—(Mr. Frank Roy .) David Cairns: I was not aware of that, although 9.31 am perhaps I should have been as an Islington council tax David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): Good morning, payer. I am afraid that nothing would surprise me about Mr. Wilshire. I thought that you were attempting to the Lib Dems on Islington council. They won the last keep my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and election by only one seat and they now run the council Wishaw (Mr. Roy) here for the whole 90 minutes, which on the basis of the mayor’s casting vote, so they are not would be very welcome. [Interruption.] He is going particularly good at winning elections. I am sure that already; he only made it to 90 seconds. [Interruption.] I my hon. Friend’s comments will be reported to people should put it on the record that he agrees with me. in Islington. I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Wilshire. It is a As I said, it is fairly obvious at the extremes of the pleasure to serve under your direction. I also welcome argument what should be left to Parliament and what colleagues to the debate, which is about the accountability should be left to returning officers. However, in the light of returning officers. I trust that that heading is sufficiently of the current controversy about election night, there is wide to allow for a general discussion of all the electoral some debate about whether the timing of election counts matters that fall within the purview of returning officers; falls within the jurisdiction of Parliament or returning if not, this will be a short speech, and the subsequent officers. Is the timing of counts a practical and logistical debate will be even shorter. issue and therefore squarely in the remit of returning I want to talk about the performance of returning officers, or is the issue one of democratic principle—the officers and about how effectively they are regulated right of voters to find out as soon as possible who will and inspected. I also want to touch specifically on the govern them? I will come back to that in a moment. move to shift the timing of general election counts from Thursday nights to Friday mornings. Many hon. Members Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I have a keen interest in that matter, and I see in his place congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, South debate. He conceded that the count is managed by the (Mr. Harris), who is leading the campaign to save returning officer, but he went on to suggest that there general election night. Among others, I can also see my are ways in which we should influence it, and one is 75WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 76WH

[Mr. Brian H. Donohoe] changed? The old Morecambe and Lonsdale constituency used to go right up to the Lake district and it included surely to ensure that the count takes place immediately Coniston. They managed to count the votes straight following the close of the polls. That has been built into away in the previous century; why cannot we do it in the our electoral arrangements for ever and it should be 21st century? It seems appalling. maintained. Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): Order. Before the David Cairns: I agree with my hon. Friend’s conclusion, hon. Member for Inverclyde answers—this is nothing to and what he describes has been custom and practice for do with what has just been said—I must point out that generations. The problem is that the legislation does not in the back row, from Geraldine Smith to Lindsay stipulate that, and we have left things more open, so Hoyle, the microphones are not working. Until things returning officers have the freedom to make a choice. are mended, it would be helpful, if they do not mind, if Indeed, we have quite properly given them the freedom they sat in the front row. to make a choice on a whole range of issues. The question is whether the timing of the count falls within the purview of democratic principle or whether it is a David Cairns: It would be a parliamentary tragedy if practical, logistical issue. my hon. Friends’ contributions were lost to posterity, and I hope that that can be remedied at once. I am sure Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman that their lungs are capable of making their voices is right to bring the issue before the House, and his carry, but it is important that history should record debate is timely.I agree that the count should be immediate, their words of wisdom. but will the Minister advise us whether returning officers My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Morecambe do in fact have the last word? We have recently introduced and Lunesdale (Geraldine Smith) is right. Later, I want legislation to put in place regional super-returning officers, to discuss in detail why I believe counts can and should who will have a degree of control over local returning still happen on close of poll. There are many reasons, officers and to whom all local returning officers will and I shall pick only some, because I suspect that other report. Could the super-officer give the local returning hon. Members will raise different ones. officer instructions about the timing of the count? Another point is that, in days gone by, turnout was David Cairns: I do not know the answer to that higher. It is sad that turnout is lower, but it was significantly question, and I look forward to the Minister’s elucidation. higher a few years ago, and there were more votes to count. There were fewer postal votes coming in, so there Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): I have had concerns were more votes to process and verify on the night. If about Chorley. The chief executive issued a statement anything, the argument should be that it is easier, not saying that if the local elections and the general election more difficult, to do an overnight count. were on the same day, the votes would be counted the To stay for a moment on the general functions of following day. That is going to happen in Chorley, but returning officers, almost every service in local government as far as I can remember, we have always had the count has at some point been described as the Cinderella on election night. I wrote to the chief executive, saying service; but none with more truth and justification than that I would like to sit down with her to discuss what electoral services. As a former councillor I can testify, as she had said, but she replied that she did not want to I expect every former councillor present for the debate discuss it. She said, “I’m the returning officer. This can, that electoral services have been a neglected component is my decision.” That is what we are facing, and it is of local government activity for many years. They are unacceptable. It is about time that these faceless, unelected underfunded, understaffed and under-appreciated. They people sat down with the elected Member of Parliament are one of the very few local government functions that to have proper discussions that are open to all parties. is neither inspected nor properly evaluated. That is the way forward. Does my hon. Friend agree? It is fashionable in some circles these days to decry the targets culture as a bad thing, but I adhere to the David Cairns: I do. The high-handed and arrogant somewhat old-fashioned view that what gets measured approach taken by the returning officer in Chorley is gets done. That is why when I was in the Government I simply unacceptable, and I contrast it with the approach was keen that we should work to establish proper taken by my own chief executive, who is holding a local performance standards for returning officers, by which consultation in Inverclyde. He sent a copy of the they could be held to account. I was one of the Ministers consultation document to me and all the other candidates who steered the Electoral Administration Act 2006 on and agents, and he is taking our views into consideration. to the statute book, alongside my right hon. and learned That is how to approach the issue, although I will save Friend who is now the Leader of the House. my final judgment until I find out what he actually decides. None the less, that approach is greatly preferable to the faintly dictatorial approach taken by the electoral Mr. Donohoe: One of the most obscure issues is this: officer in Chorley. why can Sunderland, for example, announce the result at about 10 minutes past 11, whereas in some parts of Geraldine Smith (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab): the country the announcement is made at about 3 o’clock Does my hon. Friend agree with Mr. Speaker that we in the morning? Is it not down to resources? One of the should have instant, and not slow-motion, democracy? failings in the present system is that the returning In my constituency we managed to count the votes at officer uses, almost exclusively, local government employees. the last election straight away, even though county Surely those responsible should think about that, in council elections were taking place at the same time. I relation to the question of when it is possible to deliver do not know why that cannot be done again. What has a result. 77WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 78WH

David Cairns: My hon. Friend is right. It is down to Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): Order. That resources, and the importance and priority that councils intervention should be a question, not the speech that attach to the function. My argument is that that state of the hon. Gentleman hopes to make shortly. affairs is inadequate in this day and age. Councils do not have the leeway to decide whether to prioritise David Cairns: I agree with the hon. Gentleman up to education or social services. They must do so, because a point. that is set out in statute, and they are inspected on those services, whereas in electoral services they are not inspected Bob Spink: It happens. or, as I shall outline, adequately regulated. It is therefore up to each council whether to attach a priority to them as Sunderland and other councils do. The majority of David Cairns: I am sure that it happens, but it is of councils simply do not attach priority to those services. course possible to appeal against decisions made by returning officers in the electoral courts. Of course, it Chris Ruane: My hon. Friend was indeed the Minister must be demonstrated that the decision had a significant who helped to introduce the performance standards impact on the out-turn of the election, which is a fairly that are in place—others have not been put in place. high threshold, so to that extent I agree that it might be However, in relation to those that have been put in place easier. If electoral returning officers deliberately and governing the completeness and accuracy of the register, wilfully ignore the law that is set out, that is a serious according to a parliamentary answer that I have just matter, and I look forward to the hon. Gentleman’s received, there are still 66 electoral registration officers elaborating on that, if he catches your eye, Mr. Wilshire. who say, on their own assessment, that they are not up to scratch and not performing properly. Bob Spink: I have elaborated on the matter many times in the House. David Cairns: We always say these things in debates because we are being nice to each other, but my hon. David Cairns: Sadly, I was not present on those Friend has been genuinely assiduous—[Interruption.]—in occasions, but I shall be this time. burrowing, not boring, away through the detail of the As I have said, the performance standards are fine statistics. He makes an important point: currently, the and no one could take exception to them. They are all regulatory regime is self-certified by returning officers, pretty high-level and broad-brush. What causes me with a caveat, which I shall come to in a moment. As he concern is how they are enforced. Following the Euro- has highlighted, even by their own reckoning many elections, the Electoral Commission wrote to every registration officers are not doing as well as they should be. returning officer asking them to rate themselves against The Electoral Administration Act 2006 empowers the standards. It may come as an enormous surprise to the Electoral Commission to set and monitor performance the Chamber to learn that almost everyone rated themselves standards for electoral services. Despite the provision rather good at almost everything. I was just reflecting coming into force in September 2006, it took the Electoral that if head teachers were told that Ofsted, or Her Commission until March 2009 to publish the performance Majesty’s inspectorate in Scotland, was changing the standards. Given that they are fairly broad-brush and inspection regime and would be sending everyone a high-level—they are not particularly earth-shattering—I questionnaire about how well the school was doing, have no idea why it took a leisurely two and half years there would be huge cheers in staff rooms throughout to produce them. Nevertheless, we now have them, and the country. they have been used for the first time to assess the In fairness, the Electoral Commission followed up performance of returning officers in an actual, real the self-assessment with a series of face to face interviews world election—the European poll in 2009. with a percentage of returning officers. However, on its The seven performance standards are largely common own reckoning, those interviews were aimed more at sense. They require returning officers to be able to plan consistency in filling out the forms than at getting to and organise the elections, have robust processes in grips with poor performance. place, provide appropriate training for staff, identify This is good: in some 17 cases, the commission asked potential malpractice, communicate effectively with voters, returning officers to regrade their assessment of their provide clear information for voters, and, lastly, performance. Perhaps unusually, 15 of the 17 were communicate with candidates and agents. asked to move their initial assessments up a level, and regrade themselves as having performed better than the Bob Spink: Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern electoral officers had said. Of the hundreds of returning that those performance standards do not include the officers in the country, only two were asked to downgrade returning officers’ abiding by the law of the land—the their self-assessments by one level as part of that regulatory electoral law set in this place for them to apply? They do regime. not have to apply it, because their word is final. If a returning officer wants to ignore the law of the land—that I find it hard to take that seriously. Setting objective a photocopy should not be used, that a signature should standards is clearly a step forward, and asking people to be taken contemporaneously, or that someone saying reflect on their performance against standards is a good that they have witnessed a document being signed should thing. I do not contend that there is massive incompetence actually have done so, rather than signing it fraudulently—it in the running of our elections, but anyone who has is possible for them to say, “That’s fine. The law has been a candidate, an agent, a party volunteer or a been broken, but I find that to be perfectly okay. I journalist covering an election count will know that accept it, and therefore it is acceptable and the law has there is a lot of room for improvement. not been broken.” The returning officer who is in breach of the law is completely without regulation. Several hon. Members rose— 79WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 80WH

David Cairns: May I finish the point first? There is a David Cairns: The hon. Gentleman pre-empts my lot of room for improvement, and we all know it, but very next sentence. As well as an inspection regime that unless the inspection regime is significantly more rigorous is properly monitored and enforced, instead of one than the one being followed by the Electoral Commission, under which people get to say how well they did and are areas with poor practice will carry on and local authorities then told, “No, you did better than you thought. Mark will not devote the time, money and personnel needed yourself higher”, we need a proper inspection regime. to improve performance. Other steps need to be taken right away. It took two I shall give way first to my hon. Friend the Member and a half years to get the current inspection regime. I for Chorley and then to my hon. Friend the Member for am not confident that we will move any more quickly Vale of Clwyd. away from it, but three things could happen soon. First, returning officers should be permanent, properly resourced, Mr. Hoyle: My hon. Friend is generous in giving way. senior council officers. The job should not be done by It concerns me that returning officers are self-assessed. I well-paid chief executives moonlighting for a few extra would be intrigued to know what the returning officer quid. did at Chorley. In a marginal seat that we lost, we found that 25 votes had disappeared, but we did not know Mr. Donohoe: How much extra? about it until 10 days later. I still cannot understand where they went; they must be somewhere, but nobody David Cairns: My hon. Friend asks from a sedentary can give us an answer. I wonder how returning officers position how much extra. I know that my hon. Friend would mark themselves following an incident like that. the Member for Glasgow, South has been mining away My hon. Friend raises concerns that we are all very at that question; he may be able to tell us if he catches worried about. your eye, Mr. Wilshire, so I shall not be drawn on that question. David Cairns: I can help my hon. Friend on that latter point. If he goes to the Electoral Commission website, Secondly, local returning officers should have he will see a table showing how returning officers rate responsibility for the educational and promotional functions themselves. I have not studied the Chorley self-assessment, currently undertaken by the Electoral Commission; that but the general trend is that almost everyone did very would be carried out much more effectively locally. It well at almost everything. could be allied to the council’s work in schools, and the community and other literature issued by councils. It Chris Ruane: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way would be better than having posters at bus stops, which yet again. On the question of assessment, for me the key is an expensive waste of money, although that is what performance indicator is the number of people on the happens with a national campaign. That function and register. It is quite easy to set performance indicators. the budget that goes with it should be transferred to According to the written answer to parliamentary question local returning officers. 311930, which gave registration rates in descending Thirdly, picking up the point raised by my hon. order, Kensington and Chelsea has a registration rate of Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd, returning officers 55 per cent. To be a good indicator, it should be 95 per should have proper targets for getting people on the cent. or even 100 per cent. If registration rates improved, register. In Scotland, returning officers should be given that would be an acid test—proof positive—that the responsibility for voter registration, which currently electoral returning officer was performing. resides with joint valuation boards. Taken together with an inspection regime that has some teeth, I believe that David Cairns: My hon. Friend proves something that these changes would help bolster the standing of returning I mentioned earlier—that what gets measured gets done. officers and council electoral services. In turn, that If there is no specific target to aim for, how on earth can would drive up performance. one measure whether performance is adequate? You I shall skip along a little more briefly, as I have taken might as well ask whether literature is easily understood; rather longer than I anticipated. I turn to a specific area it is a subjective matter, and it is difficult to put a target that I know is a cause for concern for colleagues and on it. Getting people on the register is a matter of others—namely, the timing of the election count. The simple arithmetic. heart of the current dispute, as I said earlier, is the I am shocked to hear of a registration rate of 55 per tension about which decisions should be set out in rules cent.; that is an appalling figure. The chief executive of and guidance from Parliament and which should be left Kensington and Chelsea should hang his head in shame. to the discretion of returning officers. There is no excuse for that. I know that area a little; it has many houses in multiple occupation and many large Legislation states that the count should begin “as families, and people move around. None the less, no soon as practicable” after the poll. However, as my hon. matter what the council’s political persuasion, it is a Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale matter of shame to have only 55 per cent. registration. (Geraldine Smith) said, for decades most of the country have taken that to mean that the count should begin as Bob Spink: Another difficulty is the relationship of soon as the polls close at 10 pm. It is no secret that, for CEOs—they generally act as returning officers—with many years, returning officers have wanted to move the controlling political party. They rely on that party away from overnight counts. Indeed, they made that to fix their salaries and their pensions; they have a view abundantly plain to me when I was a Minister in comfortable relationship. My feeling is that they may the Scotland Office in the run-up to the Scottish become politically biased in their work. We should parliamentary elections of 2007. address that point. Super-returning officers could control Essentially, the returning officers’ argument is that them, and I congratulate the Government on going in many of those in charge at the count will have been on that direction. duty since early morning and will not be at their most 81WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 82WH alert in the wee small hours of the next day, when they that checking the signatures and dates of birth on the might have to make vital decisions. That is a serious postal votes received on the day could add two to three point, and it should not be dismissed lightly. However, it hours to the count, and it offered not a shred of is equally well known that as a rule MPs are rather justification about why that should be. keener on overnight counts, for personal and political reasons. Mr. Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con): The On a personal level, we want to be put out of the hon. Gentleman is right; it is nonsense. misery of not knowing our fate as quickly as possible. That is only human. The political aspect is equally David Cairns: It is nonsense, quite right. In the words important. We have a speedy transition of power in this of one of my former constituents, “I don’t believe it.” country, which begins as soon as the result is known; [HON.MEMBERS: “Who?”] A good Labour supporter. not for us the leisurely two-month gap between the The Interim Electoral Management Board for Scotland election and the inauguration of the American President. justifies a possible move to Friday counts by referring to It may be only a matter of hours, but it has been our the problems experienced at the Scottish Parliament custom and practice for generations, and we should not elections in May 2007, and it quotes Professor Gould, abandon it without good reason. who was appointed by the Electoral Commission to Another factor is the undoubted drama and suspense investigate the election, to support its view. of the overnight results coming in. I was present at the I know quite a bit about what happened in 2007—rather Royal Festival Hall as dawn broke on 2 May 1997, and I more than I care to know. There were two problems at can testify to the extraordinary atmosphere of that that election: the unacceptably high number of spoiled occasion, which I believe was conveyed to the millions ballot papers, and the breakdown of the counting machines. watching at home. Both problems would have occurred in full had the count taken place the next day. Neither of them were in Mr. Tom Harris (Glasgow, South) (Lab): Was it a any way related to overnight counts, and they should new dawn that had broken? not be used as a spurious pretext to abandon overnight counts. David Cairns: I was going to say that it was never to I accept that checking the identifiers on postal ballots be repeated, but that is not quite our line. I am sure that is an additional burden, but it should not add three we will have a wonderful new dawn on 7 May. I have not hours to the count. The vast majority of such ballots blotted out the date of the election. Strangely enough, arrive prior to polling day and can be processed well in the Prime Minister has not confided in me. advance. Some will come through the post on polling Similarly, the question that everyone asked for weeks day itself and others will be handed in at polling stations, in the aftermath of that election—“Were you still up for but there is no reason why, with proper planning, the Portillo?”—would not have quite the same ring as, “Did vast majority of those could not be checked prior to your tea-break coincide with the announcement of the 10 pm, or why they should add significantly to the result from Enfield Southgate?” My view on this point length of the count. is that the rules for returning officers should be more There are other arguments against moving the count, prescriptive. Unless there are compelling reasons to the but I will not make them, because I want to finish now. contrary, the counting of ballot papers should begin on Contrary to what is occasionally trotted out in some polling day itself, not the following day. sections of the media, I do not believe that we have a serious problem of deliberate fraud or wholesale Mr. Donohoe: The issue that I discussed with my incompetence in our elections in this country. When returning officer was the authorisation and validation fraud occurs, the weight of the law should be brought to of the postal ballot. Will my hon. Friend address that bear. Most of our returning officers take seriously their point? responsibilities as administrators of our democratic processes, but to deny that there is room for improvement David Cairns: I will address it as soon as I have taken would be complacent. I hope that today’s debate will an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for contribute to the process of improvement in this Morecambe and Lunesdale. exceptionally important profession.

Geraldine Smith: My biggest concern is about the Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): Before I call Mr. Pickles, security of the ballot boxes when they are left overnight. may I say two things? First, we have just under half an We need assurances that they will be properly policed, hour before I call the first Front Bencher at 10.30, and it because that is a real concern. looks as though there are at least three people plus Mr. Pickles wanting to speak. Secondly, those Members David Cairns: That is a real concern. It is not one that who like playing musical chairs can now sit anywhere, I was going to cite, but I have seen it expressed elsewhere, because I am told that all the microphones now work. and it should be addressed by those places that have opted for the Friday count. 10.3 am I return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Donohoe). Returning Mr. Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con): It is officers and the Electoral Commission—in its briefing a great comfort to know that our words will go out. I for this debate—cite the new checking requirements for congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde (David postal ballots as a possible reason to defer the count to Cairns) on successfully securing this very important the next day. The Interim Electoral Management Board debate. In particular, I should like to say that I enjoy the for Scotland makes the entirely unsubstantiated claim prospect of a new dawn and people dancing in the 83WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 84WH

[Mr. Eric Pickles] Therefore, the change has more to do with administrative convenience and the fact that money, which has properly streets in May. I do not think that the election is in the been given by Government to local authorities for the bag, but I accept the hon. Gentleman’s confidence on purposes of election counts, has been hived off in other our behalf. directions. It is true that the electoral registration officer I will be brief, but I think the discussion we are is a Cinderella service of local government, which is having is about something more: the general degrading ironic given that it is the fulcrum on which local democracy of politics, of this place and of government in general. works. It is about officials saying, “We run this, and it is The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael nothing to do with you politicians.” Let me misquote Wills): I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s Alexander Pope, “For forms of government let fools speech for too long because my time will come, but let protest; Whate’er it administer’d is best”. That seems to me clarify the point about funding. Does he support be the general view of returning officers, although I ring-fencing funding for local authorities? I am talking accept that not many of them are naturally poetic. about the money that is given by central Government. Nevertheless, they are saying that the matter is not important. Mr. Pickles: No, I expect local authorities to behave A letter from the Electoral Commission stated that reasonably. We should not stand over them in a nanny the count is accurate, that voters have confidence in the state way and say, “This is the money and you must election result, and that it is entirely appropriate to have spend it.” Electoral registration officers have been saying a count on a Friday if it is deemed necessary to ensure for a long time that they need the money. I expect local an accurate result. What is frequently cited is the increased authorities to express that—regardless of whether they number of postal votes, particularly those delivered to are Conservative, Labour or Liberal Democrat authorities. polling stations on polling day. As postal votes come in during the election campaign, they are checked, verified Geraldine Smith rose— and put to one side for counting on the night. Machines are available to check the signatures—I have seen them Mr. Pickles: I will give way to the hon. Lady, but this in operation—and those that they cannot verify can be is the last time because I want to make a short speech. put to one side. Geraldine Smith: As the hon. Gentleman has said, the problem that has been identified is that returning officers Mr. Donohoe: Does the hon. Gentleman not think are not behaving reasonably and they are using money that with a bit of imagination and marketing, all the allotted to them for other purposes. He cannot have it postal votes could be in long before the count itself? both ways. That money should be ring-fenced if they are not using it appropriately. Mr. Pickles: Sometimes people are away from their homes, and sometimes people feel that it is a bit like Mr. Pickles: I suppose that is the difference between filling in tax forms and they can put it aside and do it the political parties—we want to set local authorities another day. We must accept that numbers will come in free and Labour wants to control them. This is an on the day. For better accuracy, I have obtained two example of how the system does not work, and it is comparisons—one from a Conservative seat and one patently obvious that our approach is better. But I from a Labour seat. digress. In Haltemprice and Howden, 180 ballot papers were Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): Yes, you do. handed in on the day. I cannot believe that officers required an extra two or three hours to count 180 ballot Mr. Pickles: I am trying to arrive at a political papers; that is clearly spurious. Of course, that might be consensus. unusual, so I looked at what happened in a by-election However, this issue is not about some cheery tradition, in a Labour seat—Norwich, North—although, admittedly, or about how lovely it would be to dance in the streets in it is now a Conservative seat. Again, 180 ballot papers May, or to stay up all night to watch Mr. Dimbleby, or were handed in. It is just serendipitous that the figures to watch Sky News give slightly more accurate reports are exactly the same. Even if those figures were widely than the BBC. It is about accountability and about the inaccurate, and even if we doubled the numbers, I do voice of the people being heard. not believe that they would require a three-hour count. One of the great joys of our political system is that Moving the count has nothing to do with the accuracy one is either in office or out of office—there is no of postal votes or the numbers. intervening period. One moment someone is jumping If we were to talk to people below the level of into the back of their Prius with their red box by their returning officer, they would say, “Oh, well, it is rather side and the next moment they are topping up their difficult. People have been working a long time, and Oyster card. That is a very good system. they want to get back and watch television. There might be a rerun of ‘Star Trek’ and our folks would like to see Chris Ruane: That is what Ministers do. [Laughter.] that after having a very difficult day.” Well, other people ought to be put in. On grounds of health and safety Mr. Pickles: I did not want to bring back any bad and the working time—whatever it is called—people memories for the hon. Gentleman. cannot work such long hours anyway. Traditionally, we It is different in the United States. Under the presidential have employed bank clerks, who are very dextrous in system, there is a long period between the presidential getting out the results, and we have used machines. election and a new President taking office. Even in local Machines break down, but, by and large, they do not government in Britain, there is an intervening period, get terribly tired. but that is not our system at national level. 85WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 86WH

As I was saying earlier, I am not confident that the Of course this is an important issue to us all personally, result of the general election is known. Clearly, there but it should be important to the whole country and not are three possible results. We are in a perilous economic just politicians. How have we reached the point where state and the general election counts will be taking place returning officers who are responsible for only about when all the financial markets are open. I hope that half the seats in this House have today decided to count Labour Members will forgive me for saying so, but if by votes immediately following the close of polls? some fluke it looked like we were going to have five By now, we all know the list of excuses put forward more years of the current Prime Minister, I suspect that by returning officers for delaying the count; my hon. we might well see problems with regard to our credit Friend the Member for Inverclyde and the hon. Member rating and the value of gilts. That situation might occur for Brentwood and Ongar have referred to them. This with any political party at any given time, and if it was issue is not just about the counting of postal votes; if it thought that there would be a hung Parliament, with all was, there would be no impact whatever on the time it the uncertainty that that would ensure, again there takes to produce an election result. Returning officers might be an effect on the financial markets. are suggesting that the validation of the postal ballots It matters not if these mistakes are made in the in advance of the count is causing concern and could middle of the night—traditionally, the BBC has cause a delay of the count until the next day. underestimated the number of seats that the Conservative At the next general election, whenever it is, it is party has taken; it has done that consistently in every hardly likely that—even with an increase in postal ballots— local government election for the past five years. Usually the turnout will be anything like the high turnouts that at about 4 o’clock in the morning, the truth begins to we saw in the 1950s and 1960s, which were in the high dawn on the BBC that the Conservative party has taken 70s or 80 per cent. The total number of votes that rather a lot of seats. However, given the issue of market returning officers and their staff will have to count will stability, we cannot rely on exit polls. By the time the be significantly reduced from previous years; it is the financial markets open, there should be a clear idea validation that is the problem. about whether there has been a change of Government. When the interim Electoral Management Board of I want to make a final point about returning officers. Scotland issued its consultation paper, it highlighted the Generally, a middle-ranking officer does the work on an problem that election day but it is the chief executive who turns up to “a significant percentage of the total number of postal ballots announce the result. They enjoy the full glory of that cast in each election would be submitted, or would be expected to role. I must say that I think that time is starting to run be submitted, on polling day itself.” out for the post of chief executive in local government. It is very important that the interim board did not give a With elected mayors and the cabinet system in local specific figure about the number or even the percentage government, people are starting to ask whether a chief of ballot papers that it expected to be submitted on executive is a worthwhile post. I will put that issue to polling day itself. The reason why it did not do that is one side for a moment, but any chief executive who that, as everyone who has taken part in an election cannot organise an election count and who cannot have campaign will know, the number of postal ballot papers enough people present to count the votes in a parliamentary submitted on polling day—even now, following a vast constituency once every five years—on some occasions, increase in the number of people who apply for postal there may be slightly less time between general elections— ballot papers—is insignificant. Although postal ballot should question whether they are in the right job, papers have to be validated and the signatures on them because organising an election count is relatively easy. have to be checked, it is simply not the case that so If the good folk of Morecambe and Lonsdale in the many of them are submitted on polling day, before 19th century could organise a count with all the problems office hours end at 5pm, that they will in any way affect they faced of fetching ballot papers down from Cumbria a timeous result. by horse and cart—indeed, I have a picture in my own home of Sir Winston Churchill going in a carriage to Mr. Parmjit Dhanda (Gloucester) (Lab): My hon. his own count in Epping—why cannot these modern, Friend is quite right that the postal vote ballot paper is rather well paid, rather opinionated and rather self- being used as a reason, perhaps as an excuse, for delays aggrandising individuals do it? in counting. However, another reason is the separation I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde on of ballot papers if there is a local government election securing this debate. I look to the Minister not to on the same day as a general election. My own experience ring-fence money for the count, but simply to say that of such counts, in both 2001 and 2005, was that it was the count shall take place on Thursday night. more than possible to carry out that separation of ballot papers. In our case, if there is a local government election and a general election on the same night, the 10.15 am custom now is to count the local government election Mr. Tom Harris (Glasgow, South) (Lab): I want to ballots the following morning. begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns) on securing this debate. Mr. Harris: My hon. Friend has made absolutely the I also want to thank Members from both sides of the right suggestion, as far as having elections for two House for supporting the two early-day motions that I different bodies on the same day is concerned. In Glasgow, tabled, in the last Parliament and this Parliament, to it was natural practice that, whenever the Scottish save general election night. Both were supported by the Parliament elections were held on the same day as local hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles); elections—as happened until 2007—the local election he was one of the first six names on those early-day results were announced the next day and the Scottish motions. Parliament election results were announced overnight. 87WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 88WH

[Mr. Tom Harris] and Ongar said, there are other people willing to take up the reins. If they cannot do the job, I am sure that Another excuse that has been given by returning others will step forward. officers for delaying the count is cost. Returning officers Why is it important to hold the count immediately do not mind accepting the extra payment themselves, of after polling? It has entertainment value. The hon. course, but they do not want to pay their lower-paid Member for Brentwood and Ongar seemed almost to staff the extra money that they would receive for performing dismiss that, but it should not be dismissed. A general overtime duties. Therefore, those lower-paid staff are election count is an important television event. We expected to do the counting in office time on a Friday. should not underestimate or dismiss the value of making That is all very well, except for the fact that those staff politics entertaining, and even gripping, at a time when who are counting ballot papers on a Friday would engagement in politics is, by all accounts, fading. My normally be doing something else; they would normally earliest political memory is of keeping my mum company be doing their other duties, for which they are paid. on the sofa during the early hours of a Friday morning When will those duties be carried out if they must now after everyone else had given up and gone to bed. Her count ballot papers on the Friday? There is no significant fascination with what was happening in the country and cost saving to that; it is a red herring. with the results as the night unfolded was so infectious My favourite excuse so far is health and safety. I am that it influenced the choice of my current profession. not aware of many people who count ballot papers Another reason is that holding the count immediately fainting or dropping down dead. I am not saying that after polling is democratic. I cannot emphasise that there are no pools of blood on the floor of the Scottish enough. A delayed count justified by all the erroneous exhibition and conference centre when the Glasgow excuses to which I have referred would send out an seats are counted, but that is largely the result of frank appalling message that the casting of votes as part of and firm exchanges between candidates rather than a the country’s decision about which party should form plethora of paper cuts to the people doing the counting. the Government is not important enough to do quickly, That is another tremendous red herring. and is certainly not as important as in the past.

The Gould report, commissioned after the unfortunate Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): Before I call Mr. Ruane, delays and problems with the 2007 election results in the may I point out that I hope to call Jo Swinson at Scottish Parliament, has been used as another excuse half-past 10? for not holding election counts immediately after the polls close. My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde, who was probably closer to the debacle than he likes to 10.24 am remember—[Interruption.] He was not responsible for Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I shall be as brief it, but is certainly familiar with what occurred in May 2007. as possible, Mr. Wilshire. I congratulate my hon. Friend As he has pointed out on many occasions, although at the Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns) on securing the beginning of its consultation document the interim this debate and thank him for the praise that he heaped electoral board quoted Ron Gould saying that there on me. I would also like to recognise other MPs who should be no more overnight counts, what went wrong have campaigned on the issue. in 2007—the breakdown of the counting machines, the confusion over the ballot papers—would have occurred I was first alerted to the issue by my hon. Friend the anyway. Delaying the count until Friday would have Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr. Brown), and had absolutely no effect on a single ballot paper. a band of us, including my hon. Friends the Members for Edmonton (Mr. Love), for Sheffield, Attercliffe We have discussed accountability; it is the title of this (Mr. Betts) and for Weaver Vale (Mr. Hall), have debate. As my hon. Friend said, the Government cannot campaigned on it for nine years. I have tabled 260 questions and should not run election counts, and returning officers’ about electoral registration and, along with other MPs, operational duties must be seen to be utterly immune to have had about 10 meetings with the Electoral Commission. political interference. However, it has been suggested I have met every single Minister and Secretary of State that some amendment to the Constitutional Reform and contacted hundreds of my colleagues about the Bill currently before the House might be phrased so as important issue of electoral registration. to place a duty on returning officers to make every We had some success with the Electoral Administration effort to count as soon as possible after the polls close. Act 2006, convincing Ministers to alter the balance not Will the Minister indicate in winding up whether he just by securing votes to prevent postal ballot fraud but believes that such an opportunity might be available by widening participation. However, I judge success by next week? I am more than happy to table such an numbers. Ten years ago, 3.5 million people were missing amendment if it is deemed appropriate. from the electoral register; today, 3.5 million people are There is arrogance and high-handedness among returning also missing. There has been very little progress on officers, who—certainly in Scotland—are all paid six-figure electoral registration officers’ function of ensuring that sums for their day job as chief executive of a council. If everybody who should be on the register is on it. they really believe that the job of returning officer is There are many reasons for that. The performance beyond them, if they cannot cope with the responsibility indicators developed by the Electoral Commission are of conducting a punctual count of ballot papers inadequate and rely on self-assessment, which is not immediately after the polls close, and if their other always the best form of assessment, even with follow-up. duties as chief executives of local authorities delivering It is not good that it has taken three years—from 2006 important services to local people are far too important to 2009—to determine officers’ performance. When I to allow them to spend much time doing the job of a met the Electoral Commission last year, I asked whether returning officer, then, as the hon. Member for Brentwood it would write to each MP who had an underperforming 89WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 90WH

ERO. It said that it could not do so. I had to go on the Commons Library. I congratulate my officer, Gareth Electoral Commission website, which was not functioning Evans, but 92 per cent. is not good enough, so I wish properly, look at each individual authority and determine him the power, the will and the finance to do even which EROs were not performing, find out the MPs for better. those local authorities and contact them to tell them that they had an underperforming ERO. Several hon. Members rose— That should not be down to me as a Back-Bench MP. Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): Before I call Jo The Electoral Commission should be engaging MPs, Swinson, I should say to Members that I have also been Assembly Members, MSPs, Members of the Legislative in the position of being frustrated when I could not be Assembly and local councillors to tell them that they called. I am sorry, but I said that I would call Jo have an underperforming ERO. I am pleased that today’s Swinson at 10.30. answer to a parliamentary question that I tabled last week has at least named all the underperforming EROs. 10.30 am There are 66 of them, including eight in Wales—Caerphilly, Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Thank you, Carmarthenshire, Conwy, Merthyr Tydfil, Newport, Mr. Wilshire. I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde Rhondda, Cynon and Taff and the Vale of Glamorgan— (David Cairns) on securing this debate and on his and several in Scotland. thorough and well-argued introduction. We have benefited Things are not progressing as they should be. Self- from his experience of being a Minister in charge of assessment is not effective and needs to be enhanced. electoral administration and of proximity to the difficulties Perhaps it is down to a lack of training or ignorance on in the Scottish elections in 2007, as has been mentioned. the part of some EROs. I was informed last week by a I also congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow, colleague that when he asked his local ERO whether he South (Mr. Harris) on tabling the early-day motion on would go on a electoral registration drive, the ERO this issue and on encouraging Members to hold an looked at the wards and said, “Hold on, these are Adjournment debate on the subject. I am glad that we Labour wards. It would be political if I got them on the have that opportunity today. The over-subscription of register.” That is not the case. It is not about benefiting speakers in this debate goes to show the interest of MPs one party or another. The worst performing authority in all things electoral. in the country is a Conservative authority. The worst in I will focus mainly on the issues of election night. Wales is a Plaid Cymru authority: it is Ceredigion, with Before I come to that, I should say that I think returning 55 per cent. electoral registration. The issue is not about officers do a vital job. It is not always a straightforward politics, but about democracy—and a basic building one, and in some cases they have to make difficult block of democracy is the register. decisions and judgment calls. It is right that they should I tabled a parliamentary question about the funding be able to get on with it independently of politicians, for electoral registration in England, but the figures are within the framework that Parliament sets. not collected centrally, although they are in Wales. I The move towards additional postal voting in recent asked for the figures in Wales and then analysed them in years has been helpful for democracy. I am sure that descending order. Lo and behold, the more money when knocking on doors, other hon. Members have spent on electoral registration, the better the registers. spoken to elderly people who are concerned when an Who would have thought it? election is coming up. For example, we had a by-election in my constituency in December when there were slightly Under the Electoral Administration Act 2006, the more treacherous conditions and it was getting dark Government gave £17 million to local authorities for very early. The ability to apply for a postal ballot electoral registration. It was not ring-fenced, so the without the need for huge forms or doctors’ letters has Government do not know whether the money is being enfranchised many people. Issues of fraud have been spent on what it should have been spent on. We need to raised as a result of postal voting so I welcome that follow the trail. The minimum that we should do is signatures are now required. That raises the issue of allocate the money and say, “This is what you should be verification, but the implementation does not generally spending it on. If you don’t spend it on that, we’ll want seem to have been problematic. an explanation.” I was shocked by the statistic, given by the hon. On individual registration, there are currently 3.5 million Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), that 3.5 million people not on the register. If individual registration is people are not on the electoral register. That should introduced, we will lose another 3.5 million people; that shock and horrify us all. Being on the register is vital if would make 7 million people. Those are some of the people are to have a voice and chose who should represent most disadvantaged people in society. A third of the them. poorest people in the UK are off the register. There cannot be a functioning democracy without those people Chris Ruane: Would the hon. Lady like to comment on the register. on the former Liberal Democrat leader of Islington council, who wanted to keep even more people off the I pay tribute to my local authority, Denbighshire register? county council, and its electoral registration officer, Gareth Evans. Over the past three or four years, he has Jo Swinson: I am interested in the damaging put a further 6,000 people on the register, taking it from allegations that the hon. Gentleman has made about 50,000 to 56,000. That was done through active dialogue my colleagues in Islington. I imagine he is referring to with me and through the support of the local authority. the events of 2006. As he knows, Islington council holds Nevertheless, we still have only a 92 per cent. registration an annual registration drive, in common with other rate according to the latest figures for the United Kingdom, local authorities. More than 90 per cent. of people are which are there for everybody to look at in the House of registered. I accept his point that 92 per cent. is not 91WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 92WH

[Jo Swinson] and that the count is such a buzz. Another said that “overnight counting is sadly 1 of the last interesting features of good enough and that we should aim for 100 per cent. elections”. However, the evidence that the council is working hard We should bear those comments in mind. Some people on registration is there. really appreciate the count. A press release by the hon. Member for Islington, The hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) on this matter (Mr. Pickles) said that the potential impact on the was the subject of a standards investigation and was financial markets was important. That is interesting, branded “unwise”. The Electoral Commission took the but I am not sure that I agree completely. He suggested matter up and expressed its concern, saying that the that the traditional element of general election night press release was misleading. I urge the hon. Gentleman and the experience were less important. I am inclined to to exercise caution before deciding to go down this agree with the hon. Member for Glasgow, South on that route because the matter has been investigated by the point. Commons authorities. It was found not to be the scandal that he suggests it was. Mr. Pickles: The hon. Lady has misunderstood what I said. My point is that the entertainment value is not as On the timing of general election counts, we would important as the exercise of democracy and the orderly all agree that accuracy should be a top priority. Clearly, transfer of government. overnight counting has not led to massive problems of accuracy over the past decades. The case of the machines Jo Swinson: I accept that point, but the entertainment and spoiled ballots in 2007 has been discussed. The value does have an impact on democracy. It helps problems with the Scottish elections would still have people to engage with and take an interest in our happened had the count taken place on the next day. democracy. That is good for turnout and for political Neither of those problems is likely to occur in the engagement between elections, such as people contacting general election. On spoiled ballots, I am sure that we their Members of Parliament and getting involved in will be spared the wording “Alex Salmond for First politics. Minister” on the ballot papers. The issue of counting machines will not come into play because under the Geraldine Smith rose— electoral system used for the general election, the ballots Jo Swinson: I am sorry, but I have only a short time can be counted by hand. left and want to make some progress. Election night is watched by millions of people—not Mr. Tom Harris: It is likely that the general election just political anoraks, but those who are interested in will be held on the same day as local elections in current affairs. It often becomes a social gathering with England, as has happened on many occasions recently. people inviting their friends around, getting food in and If the electoral system for Westminster changed to the making an event of it. I experienced that during the alternative vote, would there not have to be a rule that 2005 election, when many people from university whom that could not happen again? As the Gould report I had not heard from for years suddenly texted to concluded, there should not be two elections using congratulate me on winning after watching the coverage different systems on the same day. on television. That is worth preserving. There are a few circumstances in which it might not Jo Swinson: The experience we had in Scotland suggests be possible to do the count on election night. For that holding the elections at different times would be example, ballot boxes might have to be taken on ferries helpful. Fixed-term Parliaments would make that easier. or there might be difficult weather conditions on the All our other elections are held on a fixed-term basis. If islands. Everybody accepts that the count cannot take we had fixed terms in Westminster, there would be place overnight if there are extenuating circumstances. certainty and this issue would not raise its head. In general terms, however, we should stick with the To find out what the public thought, I used Twitter system, and returning officers should be encouraged to and Facebook last night to share an excellent Electoral do so. Commission document that states which authorities The postal vote argument is a total fallacy. As and constituencies are counting when, based on its campaigners, we all know that most people fill in their study. I asked people what they thought. A few people postal votes and send them in as soon as they receive thought it was fair enough if the count did not take them, which is why when they go out is an important place until the Friday, but the majority of people time in the campaign. A tiny percentage of such votes commented that they wanted the count to take place come in on polling day itself. That matter can easily be that night. They said things like: dealt with without it taking two to three hours. I shall “Delay is not good for democracy. Things must be seen to be be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on how fair as well as be fair.” we can encourage returning officers to ensure that the counting takes place on polling night—for the sake of That is very important. Another person pointed out the interest in our democracy, to be seen to be fair and to difficulty that political volunteers would have attending take into account the security concerns raised earlier. the count if it was held on the Friday, saying “not all employers are helpful about time off”. 10.40 am I recall hoarding holiday for elections when I worked in Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I seriously the private sector before I came to this place. Political congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde (David activists face such difficulties. Other people wrote that Cairns) on initiating the debate; this is really the first “it’s half the fun seeing it all play out like that” chance that we have had to discuss this important issue. 93WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 94WH

I remember well the hard work that he put into taking must be on the register. However, that is a digression, so the Electoral Administration Act 2006 through the I will not pursue the issue that the hon. Gentleman is House, because I tried to stop parts of it. In general, he asking me about. knows the subject as well as anyone, and I agree with I understand very well the extra duties that we have every word that he said in his speech and with how he imposed on returning officers as a result of the new set it out. Of course, I also agree with the comments of rules on the verification of signatures for postal votes my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar and so on. Unfortunately, as various hon. Members (Mr. Pickles). have said this morning, the impression is being given The issue must not be dealt with in party political that the duty of a returning officer to make his return as terms. We have not done that, and I think we have soon as practicable is being interpreted as an excuse for achieved consensus this morning. We are all concerned not dealing with the challenges, rather than as a duty to about the inconsistency of the work of returning officers deal with those challenges. The Electoral Commission throughout the country and, as a result of research, we states are also concerned that returning officers are not “There are various local factors that ROs will take into account accountable to anybody directly. I think I am right in when deciding on the timing of the election count, including: saying that returning officers are accountable to the geography”. courts and the electorate by virtue of the Ballot Act 1872. Fair enough—in the Western Isles, votes cannot be If I am wrong, I am sure that the Minister will correct counted until Friday, and in other places around the me. That Act sets out the current law, which has not country that is also the case. Of course we all understand been changed since. I do not think any of us foresaw the that and think it is perfectly reasonable. However, in problems that would arise. most places it is perfectly possible to have the ballot The Electoral Commission has spent a long time boxes brought in on time. considering the matter and has issued guidelines. We The Electoral Commission also refers to the cannot blame the Electoral Commission for things that “availability of staff and venues”. might go wrong, because it has limited powers. It is up to the Government to give the Electoral Commission I just do not believe that it is impossible for a returning further powers if that is deemed necessary, and that officer to find a suitable venue and enough staff to carry seems to be the direction in which we are going this out the work that needs to be done to hold an immediate morning. As other hon. Members have said, the Electoral count and result. The security of the ballot boxes has Commission can, of course, set performance standards, been mentioned by other hon. Members. Of course it is and it has done so. worrying that ballot boxes would be left all night before the vote had been counted. That enormous problem However, the returning officer is required to justify ought to be a balancing factor, but in some cases his actions. We have not yet discussed that point, but we returning officers appear to be ignoring it. should all be asking returning officers to justify their actions. There are currently 52 returning officers who Finally, the Electoral Commission refers to the have informed the Electoral Commission that they will “volume and management of postal votes returned across the for various reasons not count votes until the day after a constituency”. general election. What justification have those 52 returning That matter has also been dealt with, and I agree with officers given? We do not know, but we can find out. what other hon. Members have said about postal votes. This is an important subject of public interest and the We are talking about a minority of postal votes. Of returning officers should be asked to justify their decisions, course, people sometimes come in at 10 o’clock at night if not by the Electoral Commission then by each individual just as the ballot closes and hand in their postal vote, Member of Parliament or anyone else who is interested but how many hundreds of those will there be in each in the matter. constituency? Not many. I understand the concerns of the Electoral Commission Knowing the result of the general election is not to prioritise accuracy; indeed, we talked about that comparable to waiting until Sunday to see who wins during the passage of the 2006 Act, which the hon. “Strictly Come Dancing.” It is matter of importance to Member for Inverclyde took through the House. I have everyone, whether they know it or not. I publicly make lost count of the number of times that the Minister and the point that I do not believe we are here this morning I have had exchanges on the matter at the Dispatch Box to speak on our own behalf because we—the people over the past year. However, we are agreed—I think he who are deeply involved in politics and political activity— will agree with me here—that the accuracy of the register want the excitement of election night. The issue is not and the integrity of the ballot are the most important about that. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood factors that we are all aiming for in bringing forward and Ongar said so eloquently, the matter is about the changes to the electoral system. potential transfer of power in this country.

Chris Ruane: The hon. Lady mentioned the importance Mr. Tom Harris: Or not. of the accuracy of the register and the integrity of the ballot. Will she assure hon. Members—this is a question I intend to put to the Minister, if he will allow me to do Mrs. Laing: Or not. We have always had a system that so later—that she and her party are not considering is immediate, and that is one of the basic building disenfranchising 1 million Commonwealth voters or blocks of our democracy. It matters. That is how we do 700,000 Irish voters? it here, and the fact that that is being changed because of perceived administrative problems is simply unacceptable. Mrs. Laing: Yes, of course I can. We have also talked I now come to the important point: we have a consensus about the comprehensive nature of the register, which is here this morning and, I think, throughout the House. extremely important. Everyone who has a right to vote Simply changing how our general elections are run for 95WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 96WH

[Mrs. Laing] interference, and rightly so. My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde rightly drew attention to the importance the administrative simplicity of some returning officers of that. I think that Members from all parties would who are accountable to no one is unacceptable. So, what agree that we in this country are fortunate that our can we do about it? First, let us make it clear that the elections are free of corruption and delivered efficiently. assumption should be that the count should take place There have, of course, been exceptions with regard to at the close of the poll unless the returning officer can efficiency, and there have been isolated examples of publicly justify his actions in deciding otherwise. In corruption, but generally we are very fortunate and owe some places that will be easy and in some places it will a great debt of gratitude to those EROs who deliver not. Returning officers have made decisions that they elections in that way. have not been required to justify. Let us now ask them However, we cannot and must not be complacent to justify their actions publicly. There has been no about fraud, under-registration or the issues that have update to the precise law on returning officers’ duties been raised today. Whatever further changes we might since the 1872 Act. have to make—and we have made some already—it is The Minister knows very well that the Constitutional important that they enhance the integrity and independence Reform and Governance Bill has been amended and of the ERO. There is no evidence of widespread problems expanded considerably over the past few weeks, and the in that area, although there is widespread concern about Opposition have agreed with much of the expansion election night, to which I will return in a moment. We that the Government have brought forward; we have cannot and must not be complacent. co-operated with it. I am considering bringing forward With regard to what we can do about the matter, the an amendment to the Bill on Report to deal with the Government have to be careful. The hon. Member for matter. It would be far more effective, however, if the Brentwood and Ongar characteristically reflected his Government did that. I give an undertaking that, if the party’s position. He said he wants Minister brings forward such an amendment on Report, he will have our support. “to set local authorities free”— except, of course, when they behave unreasonably, in 10.50 am which case he seems to want the Government to direct The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael them to behave in a particular way. I know that it is a Wills): I not only congratulate my hon. Friend the characteristic of the modern Conservative party to Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns) on securing the want to be all things to all people at all times, and in all debate, but thank him for doing so. The quality of the weeks, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe contributions speaks for itself, and the fact that attendance and Lunesdale pointed out, they really cannot always has been in the double figures speaks for the great have it like that. importance that the whole House attaches to the subject. Important questions of principle and practice have Mr. Pickles: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman been raised. misquoted me inadvertently. He asked me a specific We heard important contributions from the Front question on ring-fencing, to which I gave a specific Benchers, the hon. Members for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) answer—no, we do not favour ring-fencing and want to and for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). Important set local authorities free to set their own priorities. That contributions also came from my hon. Friends the does not meant to say that the Government cannot do Members for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle), for Central Ayrshire so or must abrogate their role, so I would be most (Mr. Donohoe), for Glasgow, South (Mr. Harris) and grateful if he did not seek to find a political divide on an for Gloucester (Mr. Dhanda). We also heard from the issue in respect of which there is so much to unite us. hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) and my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Mr. Wills: Of course not, but there are divisions Lunesdale (Geraldine Smith). All of them have made between us, and the hon. Gentleman alerted Members important contributions to the debate—[Interruption.] to them in his own remarks. I was not referring to the Of course, I must not forget the contribution made by ring-fencing remark. I hope that I am not misrepresenting my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris him, but I think that if he looks at his remarks he will Ruane), which was so important that I have a whole find that he said he really wanted direction to be made sheet of paper devoted to his comments. He has made in relation to election night. I will return to that point. an important contribution to the matter over many If we accept that local government should be set free, I years, and he and I have had many exchanges about it. think that he will accept that there are limits to what the His hard work has informed the framing of legislation Government should do in relation to everything, and in on at least two occasions, so I thank him in particular. relation to election night. An important point of principle that underpins the whole debate is the position of the electoral registration Chris Ruane: The hon. Member for Brentwood and officer in our constitutional arrangements. The ERO’s Ongar said that local government should be allowed to position is important in registration, and my hon. Friend set its spending priorities according to local priorities, the Member for Vale of Clwyd rightly highlighted how but electoral registration is not only for local government, important that is, as 3.5 million eligible voters are not but for Assemblies, national Government and EU-wide on the register and are therefore unable to vote, which is government. The issue is so important that the money a scandal. We have to do something about that, and I should be ring-fenced. will come to that point in a moment. Their position is also important because of the way Mr. Wills: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. On the they conduct elections. That brings us to an important question of the accountability of EROs, we must tread point of principle: they are independent of political extremely carefully. Anything we do must enhance their 97WH Returning Officers (Accountability)3 FEBRUARY 2010 Returning Officers (Accountability) 98WH independence and integrity. The hon. Member for Castle with any method of self-assessment, but the crucial test Point (Bob Spink) drew attention to the theoretical—but for the performance of EROs in relation to registration on occasion, actual—risk that local government officers, will be the delivery of a comprehensive and accurate including EROs, can become subject to political pressure. register. It is not comprehensive and accurate at the The risk falls into three categories. First, local officers moment. The Government have brought forward proposals can become too “comfortable”, as the hon. Gentleman for individual registration, which should be implemented put it, with the dominant political party. Secondly, they by 2015. They will be implemented on the basis of a can, of course, be pressured by a dominant political comprehensive and accurate register. The whole country, party in a local authority. That is not a party political and not just the House, will judge all those responsible point, as all parties can be dominant in a local authority for registration by how far they deliver on that statutory and the risk arises in all circumstances. Interestingly, objective. There is no hiding place. That will be measured when I raised that issue at a recent conference of EROs, by an objective test in the near future. one of them stood up and said, “We want protection My second point relates to the overnight count. I from councillors who pressurise us, and we want severe have heard everything that has been said in the debate sanctions for those local councillors who seek to bully and will reflect on it. There is clearly a consensus across or pressure us to behave in a partisan way.” That is the House that all those responsible for delivering the clearly a voice that we must hear. count need to do everything in their power to deliver it Thirdly, there is at least the possibility of EROs overnight. I agree with that from a personal perspective. acting in a directly partisan way. As I have said, there is As the Minister responsible for elections, I have no role no widespread evidence that that has taken place at all. in directing EROs to do anything at all, and I want to The great majority of EROs, and the great majority of ensure that everyone understands that I respect their councillors of all parties—I make that clear—behave in independence. a way that scrupulously respects the integrity and However, if any are still considering not holding independence of the system. However, we cannot be overnight counts, I hope that they will read the record complacent, so that is something that all of us must of this debate and reflect carefully on the strength of look to improve in future. feeling. At the very least, if they decide not to hold an overnight count, they will have to have extremely good Geraldine Smith: My right hon. Friend is right. All reasons. Whatever happens, they can expect to be rigorously returning officers will act in an honest and honourable scrutinised, and should realise that this House will take way, but most people also like the easy option—and the the matter forward after the next election. I have no easy option in this regard is counting the votes the next doubt at all that that is the conclusion that everyone will day. The onus, as the hon. Member for Epping Forest draw from the strength of feeling in this debate, and I pointed out, should be on the returning officer to justify am extremely grateful to everyone who has contributed why they cannot count the votes immediately after the to it. I have no doubt that it will move the policy on in poll. some way or other in the future. Mr. David Wilshire (in the Chair): I hope that hon. Mr. Wills: I was going to move on to that point. I Members will forgive me for allowing the Minister to agree with my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for finish his comments. They no doubt wanted to hear Epping Forest on that issue. them, but we should not have done that. We will In the brief time left, I want to make two points. The pause for half a second while those who want to leave first relates to the self-assessment of EROs. That is an do so, and then we will start all over again as quickly important step forward. I accept that there are problems as possible. 99WH 3 FEBRUARY 2010 HIV/AIDS 100WH

HIV/AIDS I would like the Department to focus on this issue in a major way, and perhaps set a target to halve the 11.1 am number of undiagnosed individuals in the UK, which is now 27,000. In London, the NHS has done a great deal Mr. David S. Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab): I am of work, setting and focusing on targets to try to reduce grateful for the opportunity to raise the issue of HIV/AIDS the number of undiagnosed infections. in this Adjournment debate. I have discussed these matters frequently with my hon. Friend the Minister in Work needs to be done in a targeted way; there is no her present role in the Department of Health and in her simple solution. What one does for men who have sex previous role in the Department for International with men is very different from how one would work Development. As chairman of the all-party AIDS group, with the African community. That raises a broader issue I have dealt with the significance of the disease overseas in relation to sexual health services. I remember visiting and also in the UK. the local genito-urinary medicine clinic in Preston a few years ago and being told that one had to wait more than I wish to concentrate this morning on HIV/AIDS in a month to get an appointment. When I went back the UK, and to focus initially on the problems of late 18 months later, it had a daily drop-in clinic, and I diagnosis of HIV status. It is estimated that 27,000 people believe that that was a result of NHS targets. Targets in the UK are HIV-positive but have not yet been can work and make a difference. diagnosed as such. Of the 7,000 diagnoses that are done in most years, more than half are classed as late diagnoses, In my part of Lancashire, which is a low-prevalence by which we mean that the CD4 count has dropped area, there is only the one GUM clinic. It is the centre below 350, which is taken by the British HIV Association for people who want to be tested, but it serves a large as the measure of a late diagnosis. area from Preston down to Skelmersdale and Ormskirk. Further developments are required, and I know that the The significance of late diagnosis and the fact that matter is being discussed locally. We need to focus on 27,000 people have not been diagnosed is, first, that areas with high prevalence, which obviously explains when they are eventually diagnosed and get treatment, what is being done in Brighton, but we must recognise the treatment is likely to be less successful because their the need to work in low-prevalence areas as well. CD4 count has dropped below 350. Secondly, the fact We should also acknowledge that for the many people that they have not been diagnosed means that they are who are HIV-positive, receiving treatment and living likely to continue to engage in the risky behaviour that successful lives, the primary contact for health services resulted in their HIV status in the first place. If they are should be their GP. That has not traditionally been the diagnosed, the chances of their changing that risky case for many HIV-positive people, so some work needs behaviour will improve. Also, when people go on to be done there as well. antiretroviral treatment, the drugs reduce their infectivity, so even if they continue to engage in risky behaviour, We need to make it easier to be tested. At present, it is the likelihood of their transmitting the disease to somebody illegal in the UK to do home testing. In the same way else is vastly reduced. that there are home-testing kits for pregnancy, there are home-testing kits for HIV. One can order them illegally If we could reduce the number of people in the UK on the internet. who are HIV-positive and do not know it, and end the situation in which more than half the people who are I remember visiting a coal mine in Johannesburg diagnosed are diagnosed with CD4 counts below 350, where the aim of the owners of the mine was to get we would have an opportunity to do something significant every member of staff tested every year, on a voluntary in reducing the number of new cases and infections. basis. That was the target. Testing was done not by That is where I am coming from in this discussion. taking a blood sample but simply by taking a mouth swab. Within a short time, one could tell with the mouth I know that the Department of Health is working on swab whether someone was HIV-positive. The test is not this matter, and I welcome the work that it is doing. as accurate as a blood test, but it is a quick and easy way During the Labour party conference in Brighton last of doing it, and people can then be tested by taking a year, I visited a pilot that the Department is running blood sample at a later stage. there. I visited a general practitioner surgery that was preparing to offer new patients the HIV test in a routine If we could legalise a good home-testing kit, it would manner—it was not doing so then but should be by be much easier for many individuals to get tested on a now. A similar scheme was operating in a hospital in regular basis, and it would go some way towards reducing Brighton—I have discussed this with a number of people— the number of people—27,000—who are undiagnosed where people were being diagnosed HIV-positive as a but HIV-positive. I hope that the Minister will look result of being offered the opportunity to be tested. The favourably on that point. key is to increase the number of people who are tested. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I congratulate the At present, we have a system for routinely offering hon. Gentleman on his consistent, caring and effective pregnant women an HIV test, and take-up of that is work on HIV/AIDS over many years. Will he explain generally reaching the targets, but I was told about a whether the testing kit would flag up the need for those situation in my region, in Liverpool, where the figures who had a positive result to get a full and proper test were much lower than in the rest of the north-west. because it would not be definitive in itself? Will he When that was investigated, it emerged that when the explain why such kits are not legal so that we can medical practitioners in the hospital offered pregnant understand him better? women the opportunity of a test, they would often say, “It is only if you sleep around that you need the test.” Mr. Borrow: Twenty years ago, if someone tested The way in which people were given the opportunity to positive for HIV, the odds are that that would have been be tested was changed, and the figures in Liverpool a death sentence. Therefore, pre-test and post-test rose. There is a great deal of work to be done. counselling was regarded as important. Much less 101WH HIV/AIDS3 FEBRUARY 2010 HIV/AIDS 102WH counselling is needed now because in most cases if the school, that happens out of fear and ignorance not people test HIV-positive, particularly if they are tested out of spite towards that child. We need to begin to early when their CD4 count is above 350, the odds are tackle such issues. that they can be put on antiretroviral treatments fairly quickly, that they can live ordinary, active lives and keep The George House Trust, which is an HIV charity in their jobs going, and that the trauma will not be as great Manchester—in my area— offered a positive speakers as it would have been 20 years ago. HIV and AIDS are training programme on HIV. It found, when training now regarded as chronic conditions rather than as a NHS staff, that less than half of the health professionals death sentence, which has changed the dynamic somewhat. interviewed were able to correctly identify the routes for However, if people assume that they do not need to HIV transmission from a list of routes shown to them. I bother about the risk of becoming HIV-positive because spoke to a former nurse who worked at an NHS hospital they can take a pill and they will be all right, which is in the north-west, who was diagnosed as HIV-positive not 100 per cent. correct, that is a slight difficulty. and had some difficulty coming to terms with that. In a short space of time his employment at the hospital was I want to talk at some length about the stigma, which ended because he was made to feel so uncomfortable by makes it more difficult for people who are HIV-positive the staff that he had worked with. He currently receives to get access to services. Initially, the focus should be on treatment at another hospital some distance away. A lot general practitioner services. More than half of people of the problems are down to the fact that there is still a who are HIV-positive have not told their GP about their great deal of ignorance on the part of NHS staff. One status: they get their HIV drugs from a clinic, but their would expect that people working in the health service GP does not know about their condition. Given that would have the best knowledge, but that is not so at the ever more people are living with HIV and getting older, moment. and getting the diseases and conditions of maturity, there is a problem: if they are on medication for HIV I have some data from MORI, which did some polling and taking medication for other things, those may not in 2000 and 2007. In 2000, 91 per cent. of people knew work smoothly together. It is important that the GP is that HIV could be transmitted during sex between a informed and knows about the condition of their patient. man and a woman without a condom, but by 2007 that was down to 79 per cent. In 2000, 77 per cent. of people Many HIV-positive people are concerned about agreed that people with HIV deserve the same level of confidentiality. There are examples of GPs’ receptionists support and respect as someone with cancer. That passing on information and of files for HIV-positive figure had dropped to 70 per cent. by 2007. patients being coloured in a particular way. In areas such as mine, which is semi-rural, it would be fairly There is growing ignorance about HIV among the clear if things were not done discreetly in respect of a general population. In the past, and currently, the handful of HIV-positive patients in a practice. The Department has focused HIV prevention work on NHS needs to tackle that issue at GP level, because the groups that are most at risk: intravenous drug users, people should be able to be tested at their local general people with an African connection and men who have practice, as I have seen taking place in Brighton. That sex with men. That is good in the sense that it reduces should become much more commonplace. We should the risk of people becoming infected. However, to tackle be looking to develop more skills within general practice. stigma, there needs to be a reasonable level of knowledge Another thing is common in the NHS. I attended a and understanding among the general population about meeting with the Minister and the Secretary of State the disease and how it can be transmitted. That will with a young man who had been refused access to affect how HIV-positive individuals are dealt with and dental treatment on the basis of his HIV status. I will lead to HIV-positive people finding it easier in the sometimes think that dentists have not really caught up workplace and easier to deal with health services—and with the changes that have taken place in the past it will make them less fearful of being tested in the first 20 years. It is not uncommon for people to be denied place, which is a problem. dental treatment or to be told that they must be the last I ask my hon. Friend the Minister for better training patient of the day because the dentist needs to take for NHS staff and third sector services. People living special precautions, which is not the case. with HIV need to be involved in the development of I recently received a letter from an individual who that training, because often they are excluded from this complained that although he needed a muscle biopsy area. The Department needs to work with professional medical staff told him they could not take the sample bodies to educate those already employed in the NHS because they did not have the facilities to handle that and needs to consider working with qualification bodies safely. Again, that is nonsense. The NHS should be able to integrate HIV awareness into the medical student to do that, but obviously there is a great deal of ignorance. curriculum. A report from UK People Living with HIV Stigma There needs to be zero tolerance of any breach of Index, which I discussed with the Secretary of State, confidentiality, because having spoken to a number of shows that many HIV-positive people feel discriminated people living with HIV I know that such breaches, or against, particularly in health services and more generally. the thought that there could be a breach, stops them That is not an issue of spite and nastiness, but is to do telling their GP that they are HIV-positive. Their GP with ignorance. If a head teacher, out of ignorance, needs a full picture of their medical condition to give does not respect the confidentiality of a child who is them the best treatment and to be the main support. HIV-positive and whose mother has taken them to see the head teacher to explain the need for their treatment It is nearly 11.20 am, which is when I intended to and so on, and the parents of the other children finish my speech, so I shall now sit down and listen to subsequently demand that that child is removed from the response from my hon. Friend the Minister. 103WH HIV/AIDS3 FEBRUARY 2010 HIV/AIDS 104WH

11.19 am Our progress is backed by nationwide changes in policy and medical practice. The decision in 1999 to The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian start recommending HIV tests to pregnant women Merron): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for prompted a dramatic fall in the proportion of those South Ribble (Mr. Borrow) on securing this debate on a giving birth to HIV-positive babies. HIV tests are now matter that he champions as chair of the all-party standard for sexual health screening, so the proportion group on AIDS, a role to which he brings a sound of those who voluntarily take such a test in genito-urinary knowledge and persistence that I and many others medicine clinics rose from 77 per cent. in 2004 to 93 per inside and outside the House welcome. The debate is cent. in 2008. That shows the benefits to which my hon. timely, because tomorrow I shall host a conference on Friend referred. sexual health. Reducing HIV infections must remain at the forefront of our minds and actions as we start to I share the view that the biggest enemy of progress is develop a new sexual health strategy to take us forward stigma. HIV still has the power to define someone in a in the next 10 years. way that other illnesses do not. Too many people with HIV still experience shame and isolation because of the We face a number of challenges, which my hon. diagnosis, which may manifest itself in discrimination Friend set out well. We must remember that the prognosis in the workplace, the community and, as was said for a person in the United Kingdom who is diagnosed today, even health services. It is hardly surprising that with HIV today is a world away from what it was in the many people are extremely wary of being tested, and 1980s, when it was a killer with no treatment available may react with shock or hostility if a GP or nurse and no hope. With the development of highly effective suggests an HIV test. treatment, HIV is now a condition, albeit a chronic one, that can be managed with medication and regular I agree that if we want to increase testing and reduce monitoring. However, we are not complacent, and the number of undiagnosed cases even further, we must we are still some way from a cure, so prevention demolish stigma and discrimination. That is one of the remains the most important and effective weapon for five goals set out in our national strategy for sexual tackling HIV. health, which funded voluntary organisations to produce information for journalists, employers, health professionals The difficulty is that although treatment has improved and people with HIV. Much of the stigma surrounding and the death rate is lower, which is welcome, some HIV cannot be separated from homophobia, and we people have let their guard slip, as my hon. Friend said, are acting to root out discrimination and prejudice when it comes to protecting themselves from HIV.It has against the gay, lesbian and transsexual communities. not gone away. Treatment is lifelong, gruelling and We should not forget that this Government equalised complex, and people must take precautions to protect the age of consent, repealed section 28, and passed the themselves and their partners from infection. My hon. Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the Civil Partnership Friend made a good point when he said that late diagnosis Act 2004. Those are landmark achievements that have is the biggest contributor to mortality, but the condition changed people’s lives by giving them respect, dignity is preventable. and equality on the basis of who people are, not what The UK has a good track record of preventing HIV they are labelled as. infection, but we want to do even better. Our prevalence My hon. Friend referred to his concern about denial rates are comparatively low by European standards, of treatment and the way in which treatment is given by and much lower than in Spain, Italy, France and Portugal. some health professionals. People should not be denied A quarter of those living with HIV in this country are treatment by dentists because they are HIV-positive. It undiagnosed. Figures from the United States suggest is not a bar to access to the full range of NHS health that more than half of infections are transmitted by care. People with HIV should be treated the same as people who do not realise that they are HIV-positive. everyone else and in the best clinically appropriate way. That is why the Government’s fight to increase detection I assure my hon. Friend that we are raising awareness and reduce transmission of HIV continues. We have among the health community, because we know that increased investment over the past 10 years in national doctors, nurses and community health teams are important HIV programmes run by the Terence Higgins Trust and in offering and encouraging more people to take HIV the African HIV Policy Network. We are pushing the tests, as well as in delivering services. boundaries by funding eight pilot programmes in HIV hot spots to see how we can normalise testing in places Mr. Borrow: Does my hon. Friend agree that because such as GP surgeries, hospitals and community health GPs and dentists operate as private businesses and are settings, instead of just in sexual specialist health clinics. not employed directly by the NHS, the difficulty is that I was pleased to hear that my hon. Friend had visited individual dentists and GPs are doing their own thing? the pilot in Brighton. It is not as easy to pull levers to tackle such issues as it My hon. Friend referred to self-testing, and I understand would be with doctors and nurses working in hospitals why. I hope that he will welcome the fact that the pilot or local clinics run by the NHS. in Sheffield involved home sampling. We focused on tests being carried out by people in the privacy of their Gillian Merron: I note that point; it is extremely own homes, with diagnosis by experts. That is legal, and useful to work with professional bodies. For example, takes advantage of the available technologies, but the British Dental Association guidelines say that dental difficulty is that technology does not at present provide practices should treat everyone the same, and that good a decent quality test, and we know the consequences of cross-infection control applies to all of us. Our work a misleading test. I am optimistic about that and look with such bodies has been helpful, and we will continue forward to such a test. I will share the results of the it. The chief medical officer wrote to several royal pilot with my hon. Friend. medical colleges and faculties to highlight the role of all 105WH HIV/AIDS 3 FEBRUARY 2010 106WH health care professionals in offering HIV tests, but First Capital Connect perhaps we could go further in getting them even more on board. [JOAN WALLEY IN THE CHAIR] Advances in treatment may have turned HIV from a 2.30 pm killer virus to a chronic illness, but we must maintain our vigilance, and do everything possible to reduce Joan Walley (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the transmission. We must encourage safer sex among the hon. Member for St. Albans, let me say to hon. Members general population, which is what our new campaign, that it might be helpful if everybody could co-operate. I “Sex: Worth Talking About”, is all about. We must also think that there might be a few people who will try to tackle the stigma and discrimination surrounding HIV. catch my eye, and I would like to call the Minister by That is vital if we want more people to come forward quarter to 4. for testing and treatment. Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con): Thank you, Ms Walley. I am proud to say in the Chamber that our record on It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship today in HIV and AIDs over the past 12 years has made a this important debate on our rail services. difference, but I am deeply conscious that a lot remains In October last year—this will come as no surprise to to be done. I am keen to work with my hon. Friend, the anybody who has been watching the news—drivers on all-party group and the entire sexual health community the First Capital Connect Thameslink route, which to move forward in the years ahead on something that serves my constituency and those of many other hon. affects us all. Members here today, began industrial action. A virtual ban on overtime and rest-day working was imposed due 11.30 am to a dispute over pay. Since then, that action has been Sitting suspended. causing intense disruption and frustration for hundreds of thousands of commuters who use the route. In early November, the company informed me that it would be introducing a new timetable that offered only 50 per cent. of the services that usually ran on that busy commuter route. It was not exactly a formal notification. I rang the company one evening and said, “Excuse me, this situation is getting so bad that I need to talk about it.” The reply was, “Don’t worry. It’s going to improve tomorrow and there will be a much more reliable service”. I said, “Oh good. How is that going to occur?” and the reply was, “We have cut the train service in half and we can guarantee that that half will be delivered.” At that point, I decided that a point desperately needed to be raised about the matter on the Floor of the House. Mrs. Jacqui Lait (Beckenham) (Con): I am grateful to my hon. Friend because my constituents have exactly the same problems as the ones she describes, and I congratulate her on securing this important debate. However, my constituents have had not only that 50 per cent. cut, but on the Crystal Palace line, City workers cannot now get to the City without using another form of transport. Does my hon. Friend agree that the situation is outrageous? To say that there is a 50 per cent. service is to exaggerate just a little. Anne Main: I am not aware of that particular incident, but I know that commuters in my constituency are experiencing the frustrations that my hon. Friend describes. I am sure the Minister will have plenty of time today to address all points that are raised about the whole route. Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way as I know she wants to make progress. She has been leading the campaign not only in this debate but elsewhere, and she should be congratulated. Does she agree with my constituent, Colin Withey, and with the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow), that the franchise should be removed? A 50 per cent. reduction is absolutely appalling. Anne Main: I will talk about whether the franchise should be removed or whether it should stay with the company later in my speech. I hope the hon. Gentleman will bear with me and I thank him for his warm congratulations. 107WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 108WH

[Anne Main] Anne Main: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention and I shall certainly ask the Under-Secretary The new timetable with the 50 per cent. reduction exactly what he is considering doing. I have heard some resulted, needless to say, in chaos. Many passengers at strong words from Lord Adonis in the other place St. Albans and further down the line spent hours trying about the ultimate sanction of stripping the franchise. I to get to and from their workplaces in central London. would like to know if those are empty words, and Trains often arrived late, or already full so that people whether, if that were done, it would provide a better could not get on them, or they were cancelled at a option for commuters in my constituency. I am not moment’s notice. Platforms were changed at a moment’s interested in punishing train companies. I am interested notice, meaning that people could not board a train. in commuters in my constituency having the service The situation only worsened last month, with adverse they have paid for and getting to work on time. Ultimately, weather conditions causing some of the older trains to that is what they want. They do not want bits and pieces become frozen; motors and doors became inoperable of compensation or empty words, threats and promises. and further cancellations occurred over a period of They want the commuter services that they have paid weeks due to the poor weather, as well as the problems for and that First Capital Connect undertook to deliver. with the drivers. I will come to that in a moment, but the hon. Member The original problem stemmed from the company’s for Sutton and Cheam is right. The Minister needs to heavy reliance on staff good will to ensure that it could discuss the matter in this forum so that people know run its services. The drivers were not contracted for what is going on. enough hours to run a full service, and their contracts The bad weather caused faults in trains that were did not include Sunday working. The model was bound already in need of work and replacement by newer to come to grief at some point. units. I do not have time to add this issue to the debate, but the delivery of the newer units from Bombardier Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): I was subject to delays that were apparently due to the am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, recession and the laying-off of workers. Four-car trains and I offer my apologies that I cannot stay for the whole were operating when there should have been eight-car debate because I have a meeting on child poverty shortly. trains, which increased the problems along the route, My hon. Friend has put her finger on the nub of the and at some points, people were unable even to get on question. Does she agree that it is up to the Department the trains. for Transport in future not to award franchises to Answers to my parliamentary questions have revealed companies that rely on good will for overtime to run a that the Secretary of State for Transport knew about scheduled service on which our constituents rely to get the action by drivers on the route as early as 26 October to work? 2009. However, the news did not reach the public domain or Parliament. I was not informed about the change of Anne Main: I thank my hon. Friend for his valuable timetable until my conversation that fateful evening of contribution and I will touch on that point later in my 11 November with the manager of First Capital Connect. speech. I want to know how much Ministers and the Between 26 October and 11 November, my constituents Department were aware of that model, as it was bound were thinking that the problems might have been due to to lead to failings. swine flu or that there was some other reason why the drivers were unavailable to work. However, Ministers Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Perhaps I knew about it. I lodged an urgent question to the can help my hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and raised the issue of the First Capital Member for South-West Bedfordshire. It is not only the Connect service in the House the next day, 12 November. company that was relying on good will—the franchise It is rare for a Back Bencher to get an urgent question—I model given by the Government specified that and do not know whether the public are aware of that—and allowed the company to do it. When the specification I am pleased that the Minister came before us. However, was written, there was an innate failure in the Government’s the response was that the Department was “monitoring franchising model. the situation daily”. I must say that watching the situation did not do any good. It was chaotic. Anne Main: My hon. Friend answers part of the question that I will put to the Under-Secretary of State The Secretary of State for Transport, who has since for Transport later—he might like to agree on whether been criticised for not intervening earlier, did not give a that was a good decision. I was unaware of it, and it is statement on the matter in another place until after my frankly shocking. urgent question. Even then, he only repeated the answer that had been given by the Under-Secretary—needless Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I to say, “looking” at the situation. congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. I know that she does a lot of work on behalf of her Alistair Burt (North-East Bedfordshire) (Con): I, too, constituents on the matter. On the franchising process, offer an apology as I need to leave before the end of the together with other hon. Members, I have tabled early-day debate. Before my hon. Friend leaves the incidents of motions to ask questions about termination of the 11 and 12 November, does she recall that on the Great franchise, as many of my constituents feel that the only Northern line there were no trains on the Sunday, so my option is to get a fresh start with a new provider. constituents who wanted to attend Remembrance day Ministers have been vague about how much longer they services in London were unable to do so. Notwithstanding are prepared to tolerate the catastrophic failure of the the fact that the trade union supported a yes vote on the service before they will terminate it. Is that a question ballot, is there not a joint responsibility during the that the Under-Secretary should answer today? drivers dispute? Drivers also played their part, and if 109WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 110WH the service is to work in the future, unions and management southern part of the route that we are discussing. Perhaps must co-operate in the interests of the public to provide it could be allowed to stop at East Croydon station. a better service. That might be a way of at least trying to put some additional competitive pressure on First Capital Connect. Anne Main: I concur completely with those sentiments, and I want to touch on my hon. Friend’s point. We are Anne Main: The hon. Gentleman anticipates the later only too well aware that drivers unions have been pressing part of my speech. I thank him for his warm words. He for full nationalisation. If we are to think of doing that, is absolutely right. It does not have to be an either/or we must discuss what the possible reaction would be. option. We can have alternative models, and I should Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): Does the hon. like to raise that later. Lady accept that the state railway systems in continental I wrote again to the Under-Secretary on 11 January Europe run much better than our system, and that fares and asked him for a meeting are much cheaper, with lower public subsidy? “as a matter of urgency” Anne Main: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that to discuss the way forward. I have a copy of that letter rather rosy view of life on the continent, but I must say with me. I am staggered to say that despite all the chaos, that one of the few rail services that have been repatriated I still have not received a response nearly a month later, to state control has actually got worse. That is why I am so despite the supposedly stiff words uttered to the nervous about even suggesting that Ministers get their media by Lord Adonis and harsh pronouncements in hands on another rail service. the Chamber, it appears that all that is only bluster. I wrote to the Under-Secretary on 16 November, The reality is that precious little has been done to avoid after the statement, to urge him to do more than just the situation or even to deal with it. According to the “monitor” the situation and to ask him to meet the Minister’s own officials, his response to my letter is company urgently to discuss its apparent failure to meet overdue according to the Department’s guidelines, yet its franchise obligations. On 26 November, at business there is no sense of urgency. questions, I requested a debate in the House of Commons I hope that the commuters who use this beleaguered from the Leader of the House to discuss the problems. service take on board the fact that the present Government In response to a parliamentary question, I was told that did not even care enough to try to bring about a the Secretary of State met management in mid-November, satisfactory and early resolution when I gave them but I have no idea what was said. If he has any recall of numerous opportunities to do so. It appears that they that meeting, I would quite like to hear about it today. were waiting for the train drivers to make up their The Under-Secretary did not agree to my request and minds. no debate was granted. This is the first time that we have had a chance to debate the matter in the House. Mr. Nicholas Soames (Mid-Sussex) (Con): I congratulate The overwhelming impression was that the Government my hon. Friend on her vigorous and energetic campaign were unwilling to take action about the catastrophic on behalf of all our constituents, which is much appreciated. delivery of services, which were deteriorating daily. On My hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South 9 December, I called a meeting with Mary Grant, the Downs (Nick Herbert) and I met the management of group rail manager at FirstGroup, and all hon. Members First Capital Connect on Monday to complain about affected, so that our concerns about the ongoing problems this wholly unacceptable service, about which she is so could be discussed. At that meeting, I urged Mrs. Grant eloquently expounding. Does she agree that one of the to act swiftly to implement a lasting resolution to the most important things is not just punctuality and all the ongoing problems and, importantly, to compensate rest of it, but the flow of information to the poor adequately all passengers affected. commuters who spend enormous sums of money trying However, commuters experienced even more extreme to get from A to B and are then stranded without any disruption over the Christmas period, which was very information? In the age of the mobile telephone, that is taxing for families, given all that was going on with the unforgiveable. Will my hon. Friend add that grotesque weather. Because of the deterioration in services during lack of information to the litany of very effective charges the period of poor weather and the apparent lack of she has laid against the company’s door? progress on the reinstatement of a full timetable, I raised the issue again in the House of Commons on Anne Main: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That 11 January with the Minister of State, Department for litany of charges has come through my post box and Transport, who promised to look at ongoing problems. those of other hon. Members. There has been a lack of Looking, monitoring, watching and thinking seem to communication. As I said, it was through a happenstance be all the Government have been doing on this matter. phone call that I found out on 11 November that the My constituents and thousands of others along the timetable was to be cut by 50 per cent. The Minister route had completely lost patience with First Capital knew and he still cannot be bothered to communicate Connect by that stage. with me and my office, so I do not think that there is any better communication coming from the Government Mr. Pelling: The list of the many things that the hon. on the matter. My hon. Friend is right to say that Lady has done shows that I was right to say at the passengers have been treated appallingly. I can only say beginning just how much she has been working on that through the “Meet the Managers” sessions—I am behalf of all of us. Does she think that if the Government having one in St. Albans on Friday—managers are decide no longer to be asleep at the wheel, an alternative becoming fully aware of how absolutely fed-up the approach might be for them to allow other franchises to travelling public are. I encourage residents in St. Albans provide other services? Perhaps there could be additional and commuters to go along and give their 10 penn’orth, stops. The Gatwick express is often very empty on the because the managers certainly deserve to hear it. 111WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 112WH

[Anne Main] whether it has something to do with the amount of maintenance or the time for which the trains are taken I want the Minister to explain to me and my constituents off the rails to be put into maintenance. I cannot why he had no sense of urgency about the matter. What comment on that, other than to say that it is yet another did the Secretary of State agree with First Capital unacceptable situation. Connect at the meeting he held in November? Why did The situation that we are discussing has been hugely he not anticipate that the work to rule would cause disruptive and costly to many people in terms of hours enormous disruption to the travelling public, and why wasted and opportunities lost. On 26 January—I am did he not insist that the message was delivered to sorry, but there is a great list of things that I have asked commuters, so that they did not labour on, completely the Minister that I do not have answers to—I asked the in the dark about why train services were so disrupted? Minister what estimate he had made of the cost to When the franchise was agreed with First Capital Connect, commuters of the disruption. As he has not yet responded were the Ministers aware that FCC was reliant on such to that question, will he answer it today, please? a business model? It appears that they were, according to my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen I also want to ask the Minister’s opinion about the Hammond). Why did they agree to it? level of compensation being offered to my constituents, Were Ministers not concerned that pay negotiations who pay large amounts to travel on such a poor service. were coming to a head and that a similar pattern of Will he discuss that with management at First Capital disruption had been experienced by FirstGroup bus Connect to ensure that all passengers are adequately services in Aberdeen in July 2009, which meant that its compensated? Many passengers currently feel that what bus services were massively affected by a reduced timetable is on offer is not adequate compensation. It has been and lack of reliability? Again, the chaos was due to improved, after pressure, but it is still not much, relative drivers working to rule in a pay dispute. It was reasonable to the huge amounts that people pay not to have a to conclude that that model might repeat itself in the service or to have a service that, when they get on it, is coming months for the train services of my commuters. so claustrophobically stuffed with other passengers that At that point, the Minister should have had urgent some people feel it is unsafe. talks. Ten months of talks was our understanding. He It has been three weeks since the pay deal was accepted should have had urgent talks to prevent that crash from and more than 100 days since the industrial action happening for the train commuters as it happened with began, yet passengers are being offered compensation the bus services in Aberdeen. of only 5 per cent. or a maximum of two weeks’ travel if On 13 January, 70 per cent. of drivers who were they have a season ticket. If they buy daily tickets, they members of ASLEF voted in favour of accepting the are being asked to provide proof of which particular company’s pay offer. There have been siren calls about train they caught on the day and the delays they suffered, stripping the company of its franchise, including calls when the company knows only too well that those from the RMT to put this and all other train services delays have been crippling. If it has any doubts, it need back into public ownership. I intend to flesh out those only look at my postbag or one of the many websites arguments, but I am sure that other hon. Members will and Facebook groups where passengers pass on their want to come in on them. frustrations. First Capital Connect has agreed to pay On 13 January, First Capital Connect announced regular travellers compensation worth 5 per cent. of the that it intended to operate the full timetable on the value of a season ticket or 10 free days of travel, but a Thameslink route from Monday 18 January. However, first-class season ticket from St. Albans to London the “full timetable” included short-form trains, which Bridge—a journey of about 40 minutes on a good had less passenger capacity than usual services. When I day—costs more than £5,000 a year, and passengers approached the company, I was told that they were due were disrupted for much longer than the compensation to end today, 3 February. However, today, there are package indicates. short-form trains operating. I am now told that will Larry Heyman, partnership and integration manager cease by Friday. I can only hope that it is not another at First Capital Connect, telephoned me this morning. I false dawn. I hope that the Minister will have had talks know that other hon. Members have been quickly sent a with First Capital Connect to see whether he could do little missive about how much things have improved—and anything to get Bombardier to deliver on time, because they have improved; things are not perfect, but they that is part of the problem. have improved. However, as the websites and We must not lose sight of the fact that this situation correspondence show, passengers have yet to be convinced, has been not only hugely disruptive, but costly. short-form trains are still operating, some delays are still happening and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mr. Burstow: It is not just that trains have been Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) pointed out, the communication delivered late; they are not delivering the service they about all this is still poor. are meant to deliver. I gather that at the moment, First Short-forming trains should cease from next week. Capital Connect trains, the 377s, are breaking down However, we have had 107 days of industrial action, after every 6,000 miles, compared with Southern, which which resulted in overcrowding and frustration. Should runs the same trains and seems to keep them running the Secretary of State consider stripping FCC of its for 22,000 miles before they break down. Surely that is franchise? The Minister acknowledged in a letter of another example of how incompetent the company is. 27 January that the work-to-rule was a force majeure event. Was there anything, other than that force majeure Anne Main: I am not sure whether it is the incompetence event, that the company did or did not do that rendered of the company or the people building the trains. I am it in breach of the franchise? I would welcome the not an expert on technical matters. I am not sure Minister’s views. 113WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 114WH

The franchisee is obliged by the franchise to inform things aside as if everything was the fault of First the Secretary of State about what steps it is taking to Capital Connect? Ministers wrote the contracts, or at mitigate the effects of industrial action. At what point least supervised them. Should they not also take the was the Secretary of State informed? At what point did responsibility? the action become classified as force majeure? Will the Minister confirm that it was from the first notification Anne Main: I agree with my hon. Friend. If the cold of 26 October? Will he confirm what mitigating actions weather was a force majeure, which is allowable under were agreed with FCC? Will he say whether the cold the franchise agreement, and if the strike—or work-to-rule; weather that affected services last month was considered call it what you like—was a force majeure, what is left a force majeure event? that would allow the Minister to strip the franchise; or The franchise agreement also obliges the franchisee is it all simply bluster, words being uttered for the sake to use and continue to use of the angry public? That is the nub of my argument. If “all reasonable endeavours to avert or prevent the occurrence of poor communication can strip the franchise, I would the relevant event and/or to mitigate and minimise the effects of say that the Government should look to themselves; it is such event”. no better for them. Does the Minister think that the franchisee took reasonable No company has ever been stripped of a franchise for action to prevent the strike and to minimise its effects, poor performance since the privatisation of the rail given that another part of its group had a similar industry in the 1990s. Connex and National Express situation with its bus services? Does he consider more East Coast both surrendered their contracts, but that than 100 days of disruption to be restoration was for financial reasons rather than industrial action. “as soon as reasonably practicable”? First Capital Connect carries 200,000 commuters a day, a large number of whom are from my constituency. It is Given the intense failings of First Capital Connect vital that we get the very best result for commuters. I am on more than one front, many constituents have called not convinced about the few recent examples of on me to join them in seeking the nationalisation of the nationalisation; they do not give me any confidence that franchise. Indeed, I understand that in the past few days that is the answer. I would welcome the Minister’s views First Capital Connect management have been summoned on the matter. Lord Adonis may speak of stripping the to see the Secretary of State. We are told that the franchise, but how can we be sure that anything else Government could nationalise the company as early as would be better, given that existing franchises have not April under a break clause that allows the Department improved? for Transport to remove a company for poor performance after four years. An early-day motion has been tabled The East Coast rail franchise, which is owned by the calling for the franchise to be nationalised, and 5,000 Department for Transport, began operations on commuters have signed a petition calling for nationalisation. 14 November 2009. There has been a deterioration in Public anger abounds on the internet, with 2,291 people punctuality since the Government took it over. Although having joined a Facebook protest page. trains running on time averaged 89 per cent. for most of 2009, punctuality fell to 85.2 per cent. in the first four I am concerned that punishing FCC may well lead to weeks of ownership by the state-owned franchise, which something worse. I have no confidence that the Government represents worse performance than First Capital Connect’s. will make a better job of it. In my dealings with them, In the following four weeks, 13 December to 9 January, they have shown a complete lack of urgency, and there punctuality fell to 67.2 per cent. is a poor level of communication. Perhaps the Minister would compare that with First Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Lady talks about punishing Capital Connect before the company starts lobbing First Capital Connect. Given all that she has said, it bricks about losing its franchise. Although these figures strikes me that the company is squeezing every last cover only eight weeks, it is the same period during pound of profit that it can out of railway commuters which we suffered disruptions on our train services. We and the Government in order to pay last year’s £1 million must ensure that that does not happen again. Does the salary for First Group’s chief executive and generate Minister honestly believe that if the franchise was stripped last year’s £800 million profit. That is where the money it would not happen again? has gone. In answer to a parliamentary question on 21 January, the Minister stated that the First Capital Connect franchise Anne Main: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should talk can run until 31 March 2015, but that the Secretary of to those of his colleagues who helped set the contract. I State may exercise an option to serve notice. The franchise am not in government, and I was not privy to these also contains services that pass through St Albans franchise agreements. The company paid heavily for which had previously been allowed to stop at City that franchise; the Government wanted their shilling. station, to resume stopping there, allowing passengers He must bear that in mind when throwing those figures to vote with their feet. [Interruption.] I am sorry, Ms Walley, at me. I did not agree the pay contracts, and I did not but I have missed a page in my notes. However, it will make the franchise agreements. They were agreed by the make sense when I get there. Does the Minister believe Minister’s corner. that the events of the last 100 days indicate that the company should be stripped of the franchise? Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): One question asked by my constituents is why we As my hon. Friend knows, the Cambridge and cannot have competition on the line, a point raised by Peterborough part of the line has not been quite so bad, the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling), as but even there people have been telling me that they are it would allow commuters to choose which company thinking of moving home because they cannot rely on they travelled with. Many have mentioned the possibility the service. Is it right for Ministers simply to brush of using East Midland Trains, a company whose services 115WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 116WH

[Anne Main] many thousands travel every day from Luton to London with First Capital Connect, and so do I. I know that pass through St. Albans. It had previously been allowed other Members travel from time to time on FCC, but I to stop at City station; if it resumed stopping there, use it every day unless there are no FCC trains, in which passengers could vote with their feet and use services case I use East Midlands. I intimately know the line and provided by other companies if the usual services had how it has performed over the past 41 years, during failed. which time I have commuted daily. I have no idea whether that is possible, but has the I am a lover of the railways, and a passionate believer Minister considered other models? Will the Minister in them. Given that we live in an era of global warming agree to examine other workable possibilities, if he and want to prevent climate change, they are the transport believes that First Capital Connect should not have mode of the future. I could regale hon. Members with the franchise? I am unaware of exactly what discussions dozens of stories—some of them amusing—about my the Secretary of State has had about removing the own experiences on First Capital Connect, but I shall franchise or the possibility of retendering. I hope that avoid that because it would take too long. None the less, the Minister will update us today. I shall relate one short story. It is unclear whether the Government are better One night, I was travelling home late and went for placed than the current franchisee to run a reliable train the 11.15 East Midlands train. The first stop was Luton service, especially given the deterioration in services on and the next was Nottingham. I thought that there East Coast trains. However, it is possible that another would be no problem with the East Midlands Service, franchisee would be better placed to run these services. but when I got to the station, I had to wait on the Will the Minister give us his thoughts on that matter? It platform for a long time, way after the train was due to is clear that the current franchisee has failed to deliver leave. Then we were told that the driver was not available. the service that my constituents have a right to expect. He did not have a problem with driving his train, but he If it is to be allowed to continue running these could not get to work because he was relying on First services, First Capital Connect must be held to account— Capital Connect to get him from his home to St. Pancras. held to the franchise agreement—and kept on a tight There was no train, so he could not get to work and rein. Will the Minister give an undertaking to do that drive the East Midlands train, so even then there was a and give some indication of how he can make it happen? problem. I have many long stories about my experiences The company must demonstrate that it has put systems with the service. Even in recent times, day after day after in place so that such disruptions will not be allowed to day, I have had problems. Trains are indicated on the recur. The improvements in service that we have been board and then suddenly disappear, for example. promised since the company took over the franchise must be truly forthcoming. Will the Minister come to Anne Main: I am sure what the hon. Gentleman the House, within a month, to update us on whether he describes is rampant across the whole service. Does he is convinced that FCC is the company to continue share my disappointment in the Government’s lack of delivering commuter services and that it has in place urgency over this matter? robust measures to ensure that services are improved? What is the Minister’s view on the negotiated contracts Kelvin Hopkins: I put down an early-day motion on with drivers? I am totally unaware of what contracts are this matter only yesterday. I want the Government to being negotiated with the new drivers being taken on by take away the franchise and reintegrate all the train the company. If the situation is similar, the problems operating franchises into one rail network again. We will happen all over again with the next round of pay might even call it British Rail. bargaining—they will down tools and work to rule. Has the Minister had any discussions with First Capital Anne Main: I note the hon. Gentleman’s union leanings, Connect and other franchises to say that such actions which I find very interesting, but will he condemn the should not be allowed in future franchises and should Government’s lack of urgency? The early-day motion be stopped as soon as possible? was tabled yesterday and the Government have had I continue to meet the management of First Capital since October—and perhaps even earlier—to do something Connect to discuss their part in this sorry saga, and to about the problem. Does he agree that this has been a find out what measures have been put in place to ensure woeful performance by the Government, who may well that we do not find ourselves in the same position be the ones who will be nationalising what he wants? again. Indeed, as I said, FCC management are coming to St. Albans on Friday to face my commuters. Despite Kelvin Hopkins: I am sure that the Government would the improvements of recent days, they are angry about be rather worried if I started to speak on their behalf. I the chaos that they have suffered and the lack of am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will speak for compensation. It will take a long time before their trust himself in time. Clearly, the logical answer is to take is won back. back the franchise, bring it in house and start to run it as a publicly run, publicly accountable public service. That is how railways operate on the continent of Europe; 12.58 pm the track and train are integrated into one system. I will Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): It is a pleasure continue to argue that case until such time as common to speak in this debate. I congratulate the hon. Member sense prevails and we get an integrated railway system for St. Albans (Anne Main) on securing it and on in the future. speaking so trenchantly. There may be shades of difference I have talked about my own experiences, but there are between our views on this matter, but we are both three problems with the system of separating track and concerned about our constituents—and not only them; train. It is almost as if there are three parallel universes. 117WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 118WH

First, the train operations are run from West Hampstead 1970s and 1980s.That is a better comparison. He could and controlled by Network Rail. Secondly, there is an even look at the rail services that have been repatriated entirely separate universe called train indicators, which and are operating now. Let us forget elsewhere and talk bear no relation whatever to what is happening in the about here, because my commuters care about the services real world. It might say, “11.14: on time”but by 11.25 there and not what is happening in France. is still no train. All of a sudden, the indicator says, “Train 1 terminates here” but there is still no train. Kelvin Hopkins: I am very happy to talk about British Then the second train is half an hour later, so I miss Rail. The former rail regulator, Tom Winsor, said in this Question Time in Parliament. That happens constantly. building, in my hearing, “When BR handed over the There is then the separate universe of the automated railways to the privateers, they were handed over in announcements that bear no relation to the trains or the good order.” He is not a dyed in the wool socialist like indicators, and seem to have a life of their own. Just me; he is an objective observer who was a regulator. He occasionally, a real human being makes an announcement also said that British Rail worked miracles on a pittance. at the last minute, but, by and large, the announcements It was desperately underfunded, but it still managed to say one thing, the indicators say another and the train run a railway. operations are in another universe again. The system is A report was produced by the organisation Catalyst, complete nonsense because of the fragmentation of the of which I was an active member. It discovered— railway industry following privatisation. The idea is that amazingly—that the highest level of productivity for we run a competitive arrangement in which one part any railway in Europe happened under BR. BR had to of the system has to pay fines to another if there is a be efficient because it had to work miracles on a pittance failure in the service. In other words, one part punishes and because of the way in which it operated. The another. problem was that we did not invest enough in the Moreover, we have a delay attribution system. If a railways and they became backward. We had Government First Capital Connect train is late there may be a delay after Government after Government who thought that in its connection with an East Midlands train, which the railways were dying, were in the past and riddled then might have a problem connecting with a cross-country with trade unions; they did not like the railways. Even route in, say, Sheffield, and people will miss their so, Mrs. Thatcher refused to privatise the railways. It connections. If the fault is traced back to First Capital was John Major who privatised them because he wanted Connect, it can be fined. So First Capital Connect goes to demonstrate his ripening machismo and that he was out of its way to ensure that it is not blamed, because it harder than Maggie. does not want to be fined, but someone has to pay Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): This is the somewhere. second debate in two days in which I have been fortunate Again, if Network Rail has a problem, it will not enough to listen to the hon. Gentleman extolling the want to pay the train operating company, so it goes out virtues of a past that not all of us recognise. If that is his of its way not to concede any guilt in things that go view of the past, why has there been such a rise in wrong. All these independent operating elements of our ridership and passengers on the railways post-privatisation railway system avoid speaking to each other because and why was patronage declining when it was nationalised? they do not want to be blamed or be forced to pay fines to each other. The whole system is a complete nonsense. Kelvin Hopkins: We have seen a rapid growth in the If it was run as one system by a railway industry, we economy with vast numbers of new jobs, particularly in would not have this problem. the south-east of England. The roads are now so crowded It is all because of a mad economic theory, which was that people are forced on to the railways because there explained to me on one occasion by a supposed transport is no serious alternative. None the less, people want to economist—he was quite a nice man. He said the idea travel by rail, but they want decent fares. Public subsidy was that all the different components of the industry has multiplied three times since privatisation, so the would compete in a market. Market forces would operate amount of public money going into the railway system, and we would have lower costs, lower fares and a better as well as the private money from fares, has massively service, because that is what competition does, does it increased in that time. not? In fact, we now have the highest fares in Europe, However, people have demonstrated that they believe the least efficient railway network and the highest level in railways, which has come as a shock to many of our of costs, particularly for railway maintenance and laying leaders and particularly to the Department for Transport. new track. The opposite is true. I pointed that out to my People want to travel on the railways, but they want a friend the transport economist. I said, “Your theory decent, reliable service, they want to pay acceptable does not work because we have had the opposite on fares and, if they are taxpayers, they want to minimise every occasion.” He said, “Yes, I am afraid that the the subsidy. theory doesn’t work.” We have ruined a major economy’s railway system by Nadine Dorries (Mid-Bedfordshire) (Con): I have the basing it on a barking mad theory that does not work. I hugest respect for the hon. Gentleman, and we frequently suggest that the way forward is to take back all the travelled home together on the train at night until I was franchises, put them in house, build an integrated railway forced into my car by the recent debacle over First system again and have a sensible railway, as they do in Capital Connect. He paints a lovely picture, and we continental Europe. Costs and fares would be reduced, talked about these issues often on the train journey and we would have a much more reliable service. home, but his proposal would take such huge reorganisation and such capital expenditure that it is unrealistic. Our Anne Main: The hon. Gentleman keeps barking on commuters want to know what can be done quickly—in about the continent of Europe. Perhaps he might cast the short term—to make things better, and nationalising his mind back to the rail services that we had in the the national railway will not answer their problems. 119WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 120WH

Kelvin Hopkins: I much enjoyed my train journeys Nadine Dorries: Will my hon. Friend give way? and conversations with the hon. Lady, although we did not talk about railways at the time. Nationalising the Mr. Clappison: Yes, of course I will give way to my railways would save vast amounts of public and private hon. Friend, whom I recognise as another veteran of money; all the money that is being shovelled into the the Thameslink line. maintenance and construction side and the train-operating side, and the £1 million profit that goes to the chief Nadine Dorries: Moments before we came into the executive, would become part of a nationalised system. debate, we received an almost self-congratulatory e-mail There would not be those operations. British Rail ran from First Capital Connect, which announced that cash-limited operations, and it saved vast sums of public there were only 135 cancellations in the week from 25 to money. 31 January. It is almost as if those cancellations were the only issue, but as my hon. Friend says, they force I would like to speak for much longer, but I have more people on to fewer trains, making people late and taken more than my time, and many others hon. Members making their journeys incredibly uncomfortable. want to speak. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister seriously to consider taking not only First Capital Connect’s Mr. Clappison: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. franchise, but all the franchises back into the public She, too, has defended her constituents’ interests and sector to recreate a national railway system that we can she is right that our constituents and commuters should all be proud of and which we can all use every day. not have to put up with low standards, overcrowding, cancelled trains, trains that are not in a particularly Several hon. Members rose— good condition and a service that is generally unreliable. Joan Walley (in the Chair): Order. A few Members What is more to the point—the hon. Member for still wish to catch my eye, so I remind everyone to be Luton, North was absolutely correct about this, as I can co-operative. testify from my own experience—the trains were unreliable even when a 50 per cent. service was running and the 3.11 pm trains were overcrowded. There were still cancellations. Mr. James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): It is a pleasure A commuter standing on the platform at St. Pancras to follow the hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin station, St. Albans station or Radlett station when a Hopkins), who is a regular commuter on the line. I will train arrived had the feeling that a miracle had occurred. not follow him down every branch line or get involved Many of my constituents were much less fortunate than in the debate about nationalisation and privatisation, me and would often simply be unable to get on a train at but I recognise much of what he said about the reliability all at Radlett or Borehamwood. of the First Capital Connect service. As my hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans rightly I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member said, our constituents pay substantial amounts for this for St. Albans (Anne Main) on her stalwart work on service, and there are no alternative lines and no, or behalf of St. Albans commuters and on her general only inferior, alternative modes of transport. Like my defence of the interests of the people of St. Albans. On hon. Friend, my constituents are aware that the model this issue, in particular, she has done a tremendous operated by the company behind the service is not amount of work, not least in securing the debate, and sustainable and is likely to result in the consequences she deserves all our congratulations. To save time, I that I have described. They are absolutely fed up with shall speak about First Capital Connect as it affects my their nightmare commuting experience, the overcrowded constituents. I endorse all my hon. Friend’s comments, trains, the cancellations and the lack of reliability. Every which chime with the experience of the thousands of day, commuting is a nightmare for them. my constituents who want answers to the same questions. My constituents are therefore looking for answers First Capital Connect serves two lines through my from the debate. As my hon. Friend said, they would constituency. One is the Great Northern line, which like to see a more generous compensation scheme than runs through Potters Bar, and my hon. Friend the the one that has been put in place. I accept that the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) referred current scheme has been improved, but my constituents to it. My constituents and others on the line were need to see further improvements. They also want to saddened when they lost the service on Remembrance hear that they will receive a much-improved, reliable Sunday, and I know that veterans wanted to use the line service that is commensurate with the considerable amounts on that day. that they pay. However, it is my constituents on the other line I am grateful to Mr. Neal Lawson of First Capital operated by First Capital Connect—the former Thameslink Connect for accepting my invitation to come to line—who have borne the brunt of the disruption since Borehamwood railway station next Wednesday evening, 10 November. The line serves the stations at Radlett and I am sure that my constituents will have many and at Elstree and Borehamwood in my constituency. questions to put to him. I am also grateful for the Those stations are at the southern end of the line, so opportunity to meet Mary Grant beforehand. However, commuters there are used to trains already being packed the service as it stands is not acceptable, and the company when they arrive. It was therefore a tremendous blow must face up to that. when the service was reduced overnight on 10 November My constituents would like to know a little more from a 100 per cent. service to a 50 per cent. service. from Ministers, and I certainly echo the questions that Like them, I know from my experience as a regular my hon. Friend raised. As the people in charge of the commuter—I recognise other regular commuters here franchises, Ministers have responsibility for these issues. today, including the hon. Member for Luton, North—that I therefore have some specific questions for the Minister, even when a so-called 100 per cent. service operates, the and I would be grateful if he could reply to them, trains are very overcrowded, particularly at peak times. because my constituents want some answers. 121WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 122WH

When exactly did Ministers learn that there would be Both management and unions are fully signed up to problems on the line? When did they know, for example, the Thameslink programme, and all the improvements that there would be a 50 per cent. reduction in the in capacity and service for the passenger that it will service? When they did know, what did they do about it? bring about. Therefore, a more secure means of maintaining What steps did they take subsequently? Given their normal train operation is needed, as the engineering current responsibilities, what is their attitude to the and other works unfold. Given the understandable lack service going forward? What improvements do they of public confidence in FCC at the moment, both the expect to see? company and the unions should look to inform the One improvement, in particular, that my constituents public about how driver numbers and working want to see, and which has been mentioned today, is the arrangements will provide a robust and reliable service introduction of sufficiently long trains—eight-carriage in the years ahead. It is also the duty of the Department trains, rather than four-carriage trains. It is not acceptable for Transport to ensure that that is done, if necessary as for a service with a so-called 100 per cent. timetable to a condition of franchise. operate with short-form trains, because that continues I want to touch quickly on communications, to the problem of overcrowding. passengers at stations and to FCC staff, who can in turn My constituents want to know what improvements inform passengers and answer questions. Communication Ministers expect in the service and what they are doing has been a disaster in the past several weeks. I am to bring about those improvements. They want to know reliably informed that the current passenger information what Ministers are doing to make the quality of people’s system is a manual one. It is user-unfriendly and it does lives better, to make their commute less of a nightmare not function in real time. It is okay if nothing goes and to give them value for money. My constituents have wrong on the railway, but the minute something happens had a nightmare, which is quite unacceptable, and Ministers it is completely inadequate. It just cannot cope and is must face up to their share of the responsibility for what now being demonstrated to be, to put it politely, a has happened. pretty useless system. FCC has recently agreed to spend money on improving it—a process that will, I understand, take another 40 weeks. 3.18 pm However, there are other, industry-wide issues about Patrick Hall (Bedford) (Lab): I wish to make a short communication with passengers. I understand that the contribution to the debate, which was secured by the Department for Transport has taken the initiative, together hon. Member for St. Albans (Anne Main). Yesterday, with Network Rail and train operators, to address that. I was pleased to initiate an Adjournment debate in I raised that yesterday with my hon. Friend the Minister, this Chamber about the Thameslink programme and I and I look forward to receiving his response, if not made a number of comments about the considerable today, certainly in writing, on what is being planned—not inconvenience suffered by many of my constituents day just on Thameslink, but nationally—and when changes after day between the middle of November and the end will happen. of January. On the package of compensation to passengers, I Now, however, I want to concentrate on four issues: have received some e-mails from constituents complaining driver numbers, communications, compensation and about the inadequacy of the offer. However, FCC responded the future of the franchise. On driver numbers, the very recently to concerns that had been widely expressed Bedford depot is the biggest in the FCC franchise, and I about its operations as a whole, as well as the compensation, am informed by FCC management and ASLEF that and it has boosted the offer, as other hon. Members there should be 186 mainline drivers there. A few weeks have mentioned. Of course, it is impossible to please ago, there were 179 and recruitment was already under everyone on such issues, but now some people who way to address the shortfall. However, although the know about the latest improvements have told me that establishment is designed to cover the full timetable, they consider the discount to be generous. That is not holidays and normal sickness, it does not accommodate my word, but theirs. I understand that the system for training, which is an integral feature of railway operations applying for compensation has been discussed in detail on the Thameslink network, and therefore of FCC’s with the Bedford Commuters Association and the business. Association of Public Transport Users and has been adjusted accordingly. We shall see how that unfolds. Driver training is required for the operation of the Bedford-Sevenoaks franchise that FCC took over, and Finally, I note the calls for FCC to have its franchise the 23 new class 377 trains, which have now at last been terminated, and it is a perfectly legitimate issue to raise, delivered, and it is also required to cover changes in given the scale of the disruption and public dissatisfaction. track, signalling and so on, brought about by the However, I have come to the conclusion, partly as a Thameslink programme’s engineering works. Because result of discussions with FCC management, but also of that considerable training requirement, ASLEF agreed after discussions with ASLEF and the Bedford Commuters that its members would work rest days to enable the Association—and after thinking about the matter myself— overall package to be met, but working rest days is that such a measure now would not solve the problem, voluntary. While there is good will and co-operation, and would introduce uncertainty when we need recovery everything is fine, but in the light of what has happened of the service. In my view, FCC management has got in the past two and a half months, which has been an the message. awful experience for so many thousands of people, it is clear that the voluntary arrangement is vulnerable. There John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I is too much at stake for things to be left as they are. accept the point that my hon. Friend makes. I should Therefore, there is an urgent need to review the overall prefer the franchise to be withdrawn and the service to number of drivers, as well as other working arrangements. be brought back into public ownership, but there is a 123WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 124WH

[John McDonnell] who is late for work and in trouble with their managers and bosses has been standing for an hour on a freezing middle route, which the Government took with First cold platform, and a platform change is suddenly made Great Western: to issue a remedial plan, which would be without notification, that person will be pretty angry. monitored by the Minister directly, almost on a weekly That is something that I want to communicate: how basis, to ensure that performance was being improved angry my constituents have been. My e-mail account and set to target. has been full. I have been given information via Twitter, e-mail and blogs, on the platform, and in letters. People Patrick Hall: That is a very sensible suggestion, and I have been furious. I have heard of people unable to hope that the Minister will respond accordingly, perhaps complete training courses, and others who have been to confirm that that will happen. threatened by their managers that they would lose their On public ownership, I support public ownership of jobs if they continued to be late. Those people have no the entire network. I am not convinced that using the other way to get to their employment. opportunity of the failure of the past two and a half The human heartache that was suffered because of months is the way to approach the issue. The Government how First Capital Connect behaved will not be recompensed should present measures for the renationalisation of the by a mere 5 per cent. of the price of a season ticket. entire system. I think that I shall wait a long time for That will not give people back their jobs or save their that, but it would be a better way to go about it than a face in front of their employers. It will not put right piecemeal approach. what they have been through. It will just give them a Despite what people have gone through in the past small amount of financial compensation. That, again, two and a half months, the time for anger is over. We highlights the fact that the Government had no sense of need to move into a more measured process of delivering urgency about how the catastrophe affected people’s for the passenger. Therefore, FCC must address the daily lives. It is a shame on the Government that they serious issues that I, and others, have raised, and did not act more quickly—that they did not find a way demonstrate to the Department for Transport and the to bring in drivers from other providers or other parts public that it is on top of the challenge. of the country, and do something to break the three-month deadlock. Joan Walley (in the Chair): I ask the hon. Member for I know that I need to be brief, Ms Walley, so I will Mid-Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) to make her remarks make a final point. Regarding the financial punishment, brief, so that we can have time for the winding-up or the loss of the franchise, whatever happens needs to speeches and the Minister’s reply. happen not only from a need to punish FCC for what has gone on but as a deterrent across the country to any 3.26 pm other rail providers that might think, even for one moment, that they can get away with treating their Nadine Dorries (Mid-Bedfordshire) (Con): I shall be commuters as FCC treated our constituents. Every rail brief. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St. provider out there needs to know that, if that is how Albans (Anne Main) on securing the debate. Given the they treat their commuters, this is what will happen. energy and assiduousness with which she has represented Therefore, something very severe needs to happen to her constituents and dealt with the issue, I cannot but FCC. I do not know what form that action will take, but point out that if the Government and the Minister had it needs to happen soon. been half as energetic and attentive, and if there had been a little more pressure on First Capital Connect, some of the problems might have abated a little sooner. 3.30 pm The e-mail that I mentioned in an intervention, which Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I want referred to 135 cancellations in the last week in January, to start by congratulating the hon. Member for St. Albans included a note stating: (Anne Main) on securing this debate. The issue is “This is the best …performance…since May 2009.” clearly of enormous concern to her constituents and I That highlights the poor service that not only has been suspect that it is also enormously important to the provided on the line in the past few months but to which constituents of all the Members of Parliament who are we are repeatedly subjected. The past few months have here today, including me, although I am more of a been bad, but personally the past five years have not Southern user than a First Capital Connect user. been particularly good. The result may have been a very All Members who are here today are very familiar unsatisfactory situation, but for some of us that has with the history of this disaster, or debacle, which been going on for some time. began with the issue of driver training and the voluntary I want to name-check Larry Heyman, the customer arrangement that was apparently in place to provide services manager, who has been between a rock and a cover. Shortly afterwards, that was followed by the bad hard place, and who has done a fantastic job in trying weather, which had a serious effect on FCC and on all to communicate with as many people as possible about the other train operating companies. what was happening. However, communication was, of FCC has been very unfortunate in that, as my hon. course, the main problem. People in my constituency Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow), would wait for a train for an hour, on the platform who is no longer in his place, said, it has the 377 rolling where they had been told it would arrive; then, as it stock. That stock has a very poor record, with only pulled into the station, the platform announcement 6,000 miles between each breakdown. In that respect, I would change, giving them insufficient time to get to the wonder if FCC was sold a pup, because that is a very other platform, and the train would go. It is hard to put poor reliability record. Of course, FCC then had the oneself in another person’s position, but if someone 319 fleet, which was very badly affected by the snow, 125WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 126WH which is, as it were, the Eurostar defence when it comes That issue of compensation is one that FCC could do to cancelling trains, as it put many Eurostar trains out a lot more to simplify and make straightforward. In of operation. other debates, other Members have discussed other It was those two factors—first, the issue of drivers methods of compensation. In Berlin, for example, there and the voluntary arrangement to deal with that issue, was an issue with the train service and it was resolved and secondly, the disastrous performance during the simply by extending everyone’s ticket by a month. That snow—that prompted my hon. Friend the Member for was very straightforward and it required no action on Sutton and Cheam to table early-day motion 623, which the part of commuters. I supported him in. That called for: “Termination of rail franchise of First Capital Connect”. Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Gentleman mentioned Berlin. Two years ago, I was with the Rail Freight Group in He tabled that early-day motion because he and many Berlin and I talked to the head of German railways. He other commuters believe that FCC has gone beyond the was railing against the possibility that German railways point of no return in relation to providing this service. could be privatised, on the basis of the British experience That early-day motion: of privatisation, because it would be a total disaster. “calls on the Secretary of State for Transport to serve immediate notice to terminate the franchise agreement with First Capital Connect and to offer the franchise to a more capable organisation.” Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I think that he has made his position on In my view, that “more capable organisation” could be this issue very clear. either another train operating company, if one is interested, or alternatively the state could run the service, to provide I hope that FCC has learned the lessons from these a comparator with the private sector, to enable us to see problems, although I am a little worried about a statement which of the two sectors can deliver rail services most by Mary Grant of FCC. She was asked about the cost-effectively. lessons that had been learned and she stated, “You don’t plan for what you expect to happen, you plan for Ms Walley, I know that you will not allow me to stray what you don’t expect to happen.” Any business makes too much beyond the subject of this debate, particularly contingency arrangements so that it has a fall-back given the time that I have available, but Members may position when what it plans for does not happen. have been following what has happened with Tube Lines, which runs the tube services, and the disaster that The communications system is another issue. Due is about to occur in terms of the cost of the services that diligence would have highlighted to the company a it is providing. I believe that Transport for London number of years ago that it could not cope with a could provide those services much more effectively, significant weather incident. It should have made its much more efficiently and at a lower cost. investment plans earlier. The experience that commuters have had on FCC is Finally, I have a couple of questions for the Minister. reflected in my inbox; all Members here today will have First, in a debate on 28 January, the Minister of State, had similar messages from constituents. For example, I Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for received the following Facebook message: Tooting (Mr. Khan) said: “They hike our tickets up, and then give us an appalling “My noble friend the Secretary of State and I are considering service. It is an utter disgrace—either they hire and retain enough all options open to the Government to require radical train drivers or they hand the franchise over.” improvements.”—[Official Report, 28 January 2010; Vol. 504, c. 928.] We hope that that issue of drivers has now been addressed. However, when the Minister answers the very long list At the end of this debate, we need to know what that of questions that have been put in this debate—I will means, the time scale involved and what options are add a few to it myself—he may want to confirm whether being considered. Do they include the possibility of he thinks that FCC is now, roughly speaking, dependent curtailing the franchise by 2012? We also need to know to the same extent as the other train operating companies if the remedial plan option, for example, is being considered? on drivers being willing to work at the weekends, for Finally, if the Government are considering withdrawing instance. Alternatively, does he believe that FCC is still the franchise from FCC, what are the trigger points that in a position where it is more vulnerable than those would initiate that process? other companies? To conclude, I will quote another FCC commuter: I received another complaint about FCC by e-mail: “I do not think that First Capital Connect should be allowed “Having lived in Sutton for the past 5 years”— to continue to hold their franchise as their service has never been reliable and the trains are in poor condition.” so, these problems have not just happened in the past six months— At the end of this debate, I hope that the Minister will tell us whether he agrees with that commuter and, if he “I have had the misfortune of having to travel on the above does not agree, what does he propose doing as an route…south London is not best served by public transport…I am sick and tired of the appalling service of FCC.” alternative to removing the franchise from FCC? Importantly, as other Members have already mentioned, the issue of dealing with employers is raised: 3.37 pm “My employers are getting fed up with explanations of ‘late/ Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): It is a great cancelled trains’.” pleasure to contribute to this debate today, as it was to The e-mail goes on to talk about the issue of compensation contribute to a debate on rail in Westminster Hall and how FCC had offered: yesterday, because I have a dual role in relation to rail; I “wild and wonderful suggestions of how I should rearrange my am both a frustrated constituency MP and the shadow journey in order that they are not eligible to pay me £2.” Minister with responsibility for my party in this area. 127WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 128WH

[Stephen Hammond] Stephen Hammond: The Minister is admitting to everybody that he accepts that the Government are A number of my colleagues have eloquently described prepared to let franchises without full coverage of driver a number of problems that they have experienced with services. I was somewhat surprised when he confirmed First Capital Connect. So far, most of them have come to me that the majority of train operating companies from the northern end of the FCC lines, but a number rely on rest days and overtime working to deliver not of the commuters on the Wimbledon loop have experienced exceptional services but normal services. exactly the same problems with the poor service from November onwards and indeed with the total shutdown Chris Mole: The hon. Gentleman said that he believes of the service due to snow. that a majority of train companies rely on rest day rostering. How many train companies out of the total Therefore, I want to congratulate my hon. Friend the number do so? Member for St. Albans (Anne Main) on securing this very timely debate. The number of Members who have Stephen Hammond: If the Minister cares to write to made time today to make either speeches or interventions me again to clarify his letter, I will be able to answer that in this debate is a tribute to her. That is a sign of how question. It was his own letter that told me that it was a important this issue is to our constituents. It is to her majority of companies. If he wishes to clarify the letter, credit that she has been such a consistent defender of I will be delighted to receive that clarification. her constituents. Understandably, there has been clamour for First We have had some very thoughtful speeches and Capital Connect to be stripped of its franchise. The interventions. I want to pick up on the point that was hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom made earlier, by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex Brake) started to get to the nub of the matter. Stripping (Mr. Soames) in an intervention and by my hon. Friend a franchise might be possible if the franchisee has the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) in broken its franchise arrangements. Will the Minister tell her contribution to the debate, about the poor information us whether FCC, even under the revised timetable, has that was being provided by FCC. FCC should seek to come close to incurring performance improvement plans, address that immediately. It can be rectified easily. It is a breach or default? If it had not agreed the revised differentiating factor between its service and the services timetable, would its lack of performance have led to that are provided elsewhere. such measures? There are important questions about My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire the performance of the franchise. and my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere The other thing that a lot of our constituents rightly (Mr. Clappison) both made the point that it is all very want to know is why they face a poorer service even well for FCC to offer some compensation, but we are though the problems that they have experienced have talking about the inconvenience suffered by commuters not shown up as particularly bad performance in FCC’s and the need to get to a service that is regular and initial numbers, due to force majeure and the revised reliable, which our constituents have a right to expect. timetable. Will the Minister indicate exactly what criteria That is why this has been such an important debate. he uses for force majeure and what provisions allow a TOC to introduce a revised timetable? Although events Several hon. Members have said that today they outside the company’s control were involved, making received e-mails from First Capital Connect stating that the necessity of such measures understandable, surely the daily public performance measurement has dropped the point is that although the revised timetable is in below 90 per cent. only once since 18 January. However, place, our constituents are not getting the service that we are here to discuss the unacceptable standard over they expect and should therefore be entitled to compensation the past few months, not the fact that FCC has returned anyway. Will he address that point? What consideration to an almost acceptable one. have the Government given it? Whichever way we look at it, there are three protagonists I am conscious of the time, and I know that Ms Walley in this sorry debacle, but it is the travelling public who wants to call the Minister at a quarter to 4, but I have a have been forced to live at the will and whim of the couple of questions about the First Capital Connect incidents. Although the drivers’ actions were not technically fleet. Yesterday I asked the Minister some detailed a strike, it is hard to believe that they were not motivated questions about the First Thameslink fleet and he kindly by the pay talks under way and that the passengers agreed to write to me, but today I have what I hope are became the victims of irresponsible game-playing. The some slightly easier questions. walk-outs on previously rostered agreements hurt the It is clear that First Capital Connect has operated travelling public. under a considerable burden, partly because of delays The question for many people—I think that the Minister in the delivery of rolling stock. Hon. Members have will want to answer this—is whether it is responsible to rightly described some of the rolling stock cascaded to let franchises, knowing that those franchises rely on the FCC as being of lower maintenance provision than rostering of overtime and that there is all too often no previously. Does the Minister accept that the cascade of provision in the franchise to cover Sundays. That is poorer rolling stock has played a huge part? If the certainly true of FCC, and it is true of others. Government had met their side of the bargain and delivered to First Capital Connect 32 non-defective The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport trains, as opposed to the 32 that they actually delivered, (Chris Mole): I assure the hon. Gentleman that the what consequences do they believe that would have had franchises are let on the basis that the Government during the bad weather? expect the output specified in the franchise to be delivered I am conscious of the time, as I know that the by whatever means, not on the basis of what rostering Minister will want to respond in depth, but it is a great might be proposed by the franchisee. credit to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans 129WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 130WH that she secured this debate and allowed many of us to Chris Mole: As has been made clear in statements to speak on behalf of our constituents, express concerns the House, Ministers were monitoring the situation to the Minister and understand what remedies the from the point at which we were advised that officials Government intend to take. had agreed amended timetables with the train operating company. 3.46 pm Anne Main rose— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Chris Mole): I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Chris Mole: As the disruption continued, First Capital St. Albans (Anne Main) on securing this debate, which Connect was progressively able to reduce the planned I know is of great importance to her constituents, and number of cancellations so that by 11 January this year, indeed to many thousands of other rail users across the 80 per cent. of services were planned to run. The south-east affected by the severe disruption to First Department agreed the amended timetables to ensure Capital Connect Thameslink services over the past few that First Capital Connect could give passengers accurate months. information on the minimum level of service that The hon. Lady mentioned two items submitted to would be provided. That was designed to reduce the me. On the first item, my office is not aware of the letter passenger disruption and confusion caused by short-notice of 11 January to which she referred; it appears not to cancellations, and to provide passengers with a timetable— have arrived. On the parliamentary question, I believe albeit a reduced one—that allowed them to plan their that I signed the response this morning. journeys. In giving that approval, the Department required Anne Main: I thank the Minister for that. I have just First Capital Connect to introduce specific mitigation skimmed a copy of the letter for the purposes of Hansard. steps to provide the best possible service, including Also, my staff chased up the matter with his office two protecting first and last services for all routes; balanced days ago, and were given an acknowledgement that the services throughout the day; replacement bus services response was late in coming. where appropriate; reinstatement of services where resources were available; and making First Capital Connect tickets Chris Mole: At times the service has been atrocious, acceptable on other routes and transport modes. involving delays, cancellations and poor customer care. Passengers have been let down badly—particularly on Anne Main: Will the Minister give way? the Thameslink route, but also, as hon. Members have said, on the Great Northern route—and it is easy to see Chris Mole: For the last time. why so many are angry and frustrated. They deserve better. I want to make it clear that unless things improve Anne Main: I am sorry if it is the last time, because radically, the Government will take the necessary robust there is an awful lot of detail. It is crucial that we know and rapid steps to ensure that passengers receive the when the Minister was advised that the situation was standard of service that they deserve. becoming untenable. We know that a reduced timetable The problems at First Capital Connect started in the was agreed to, but on exactly what date did he become autumn. As the hon. Lady will be aware, some train aware of how bad the negotiations had become? operating companies rely on overtime and rest day working to deliver their train services, and First Capital Chris Mole: I have made it plain that Ministers were Connect is no different. The current difficulties began made aware when it was known for certain that concerted when drivers chose not to undertake overtime and rest action had been notified to the train operator, which day working in response to a two-year pay award deal must have been the week before the implementation of offered by the operator. Such concerted unofficial action the revised timetables. by the drivers was highly regrettable, given that talks with unions were ongoing. At a challenging time for the Kelvin Hopkins: The Minister is talking about the economy, the pay award offered was similar to that reduced train service. The major problem beyond that proposed by another rail operator—and, indeed, was was that the automated indicator system often bore no better than pay deals in some other industries in the UK relation to the service, the automated voice system bore where workers are accepting zero growth or even pay no relation to the indicator system and, just occasionally, reductions to secure their longer-term employment future. there would be a live voice trying to sort out the mess. As part of the franchise agreement, the franchisee is Will the Minister address that problem? tasked with using all reasonable endeavours to keep services running and minimise disruption to passengers Chris Mole: My hon. Friend intervened at exactly the when rail services are disrupted by staff action. In the right point because I was about to say that First Capital first working week in which amended timetables were Connect acknowledges that its provision of information introduced on the Thameslink route, the operator cancelled to customers, including on customer information systems, 126 trains out of its normal 380 trains, leaving 67 per has not been good enough. The company is in discussion cent. of trains in service. with my officials on how it intends to improve information provision to passengers. Anne Main: The Minister is reiterating the timeline of At the beginning of December 2009, First Capital catastrophe that my speech touched on. I want to know Connect and ASLEF confirmed that a pay settlement what the Minister did from October, when we were had been negotiated and they gave a joint communication aware of what the drivers were doing. As I understand to that effect to staff. The proposed pay settlement it, there was no meeting until 11 November. was considered by the ASLEF executive committee on 131WH First Capital Connect3 FEBRUARY 2010 First Capital Connect 132WH

[Chris Mole] We recognise that FCC is introducing new drivers; six started last month and five more are due to begin soon. 8 December 2009, which recommended its acceptance Further new drivers will become qualified throughout to members. The official deadline for members to accept the year and existing drivers will be trained on a wider or reject the offer was 13 January 2010. First Capital range of trains. I think that goes some way to answering Connect and ASLEF undertook engagements jointly the question of the hon. Member for Carshalton and and separately with the train drivers to encourage them Wallington about the resilience of FCC. to return to overtime and rest day working. Although that strategy paid some dividends with a reduction in Anne Main rose— the number of cancellations, FCC was unable to operate its full timetable until 18 January 2010. Patrick Hall: The Minister is talking about driver As if the drivers’ action had not caused passengers recruitment and numbers. I notice that no one has said enough disruption, severe weather early last month that they will force drivers to work on their rest days. conspired to make a bad situation worse. The snow had The situation is clearly vulnerable and uncertain. I a significant impact on the Thameslink route. Network suggest that the Minister, train operators and Network Rail required emergency timetables to operate and there Rail consider how all these issues can be changed so were additional infrastructure and rolling stock problems. that we no longer rely on such a clearly unstable situation. At perhaps the worst point, on 7 January, FCC had only 25 units available out of 107 units, which severely Chris Mole: My hon. Friend raises a reasonable point. hampered services. My right hon. Friend the Minister First Capital Connect has started a recruitment campaign of State at the Department for Transport wrote to the for qualified drivers. Its recruitment actions will make hon. Member for St. Albans on that matter recently. I First Capital Connect less reliant on overtime and rest confirm that all repairs to the damaged rolling stock are day working, and more resilient. expected to be completed by 10 February 2010. First Capital Connect was not the only train operator Nadine Dorries: The Minister said that the compensation to have problems in the snow. The rail industry is was not adequate. What does he think would be adequate? conducting a review of how it delivered services to passengers during the bad weather, including the provision Chris Mole: That is not for me to judge. That is a of customer information, to ensure that lessons are matter for the train operating company to consider as learned. part of establishing a relationship with its customers. I reiterate that, on current performance, FCC could Stephen Hammond: I think I just heard the Minister very soon miss the benchmark levels in the franchise say that the problem was with 173 trains. I believe that agreement. We have advised the company that we are in the rolling stock plan of January 2008, First Capital considering all options open to us under the franchise Connect was promised 255 new carriages. How many of agreement. Where other franchises have breached franchise those carriages have been ordered? Will that figure agreement performance benchmarks, we have taken change in the next rolling stock plan? firm action to secure improvements in services to passengers. In the case of First Great Western, the remedial plan Chris Mole: I shall write to the hon. Gentleman as and the associated £29 million passenger benefits package that is such a detailed question. delivered significant improvements to services.

Tom Brake: The Minister mentioned that the industry Stephen Hammond: Will the Minister clarify that he is about to carry out a review into the problems caused said what I think he said, which is that the company is by the snow. Presumably, the industry carried out a close to breaching the conditions? My understanding review after the problems during the bad weather last from First Capital Connect is that since 18 January, it is year. Have any lessons been learned from that review, well above the performance improvement plans, well which must have been carried out about 12 months ago? above breach and well above default. There is no possible way in which the Government can act unless they Chris Mole: That is another interesting question and ignore the contract. Will he clarify what he said? I will write to the hon. Gentleman in response. We are clear about the impact of the bad weather on Chris Mole: The hon. Gentleman is clearly aware of train services and we are equally clear on the performance the generalities of the framework and of the monitoring of the franchise as a result of the drivers’ action. of cancellation, capacity and service delivery benchmarks Throughout this period, the Department has remained under the franchise. A number of thresholds can trigger in regular dialogue with FCC and we continue to monitor different types of intervention. We are looking at the its performance on a daily basis. Indeed, the Secretary numbers that FCC has given us for the period when the of State met with the company this week. Although the revised timetables were in place and for the subsequent services since 18 January are an obvious improvement period. We will look closely at whether those numbers on those delivered to passengers since the disruption lead to any need for intervention. began in October last year, the Secretary of State has Recently, a remedial plan was agreed with London made it clear that performance has remained unacceptable Midland to secure improvements to its services. We will in terms of punctuality, cancellations and passenger continue to put customer interests first. I remind hon. service. Equally, the compensation package offered by Members of our debate yesterday, which was about the FCC to Thameslink passengers is, in our view, inadequate improvements that Thameslink passengers will see as a recompense for the three months of chronic disruption. result of the Government’s £5.5 billion investment in That has only exacerbated discontent. the development of the Thameslink service. 133WH 3 FEBRUARY 2010 University Places (England) 134WH

University Places (England) people to choose both their university and course according to ability, encouraging more people to study science, technology, engineering and maths at school and then 4pm at university has become my passion. That passion is Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD): shared by many in our learned societies and is constantly Although the title of the debate refers to university promoted in the House through work by the Royal places in England, I shall actually mention places in the Society of Chemistry and others, to whom we all owe a UK. If the Minister has prepared his brief just in terms debt of gratitude. It is in the areas of science, engineering of England, I am happy with that, but it is a broader and technology that students will have the greatest issue. opportunities to contribute to the nation’s economic It is important to put on the record my belief that we well-being and enrich our society. have a truly world-class higher education system. Since Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman the Robbins report in 1963—when I went into higher has been a consistent advocate of our university system education—the higher education system has expanded for many years. Although he is right to mention the from a small relatively elite system that served some individual opportunities that universities give, he will, 8 per cent. of the population to a mass semi-marketised no doubt, also acknowledge that the university system system. In England alone, 42 per cent. of our 19-year-olds helps this country to keep its competitive advantage, went into higher education last year. That is something create wealth and find solutions for some of the major to celebrate; it is a remarkable achievement. problems, whether they are medical, climate change or Throughout that transformation, our universities have whatever. Does he worry that the main parties, which retained a world-class reputation with four in the world are threatening hard cuts in public services, could get top 10, and 18 in the top 100. What is more, the recent the big science budgets of universities in their sights? 2008 research assessment exercise reported that 90 per Does he agree that that would be a major mistake for cent. of the research submitted was regarded as of this country? international quality and fell into the top three grades of “world-leading”, “internationally excellent” or Mr. Willis: If that is the case, I agree. The question is “internationally recognised.”Some 150 of our universities how we can avert it and maintain the investment that had at least 5 per cent. of their research deemed world- has gone into UK science, particularly big science—for leading. What is more, in arguably the most competitive example, our work at Diamond Light Source, ISIS, the academic fields of science, engineering and technology— great big particle accelerators and the other major SET—we remain second only to the US in our output facilities that we maintain. Having mapped out the key of research and in many areas, from particle physics to areas on which, I hope, there is agreement, I am saddened robotics and bioengineering to genomics, our universities that the Government threaten to dismantle a decade of are truly world-leading. investment, encouragement and expansion at a time when we need to turn the tap on, not turn it off—the This debate is about how we provide the nation with point the hon. Gentleman made. the next generation of brilliant scientists, technologists Although President Obama is investing billions in and academics, but it is also about providing the nation fundamental research—in fact, that is the cornerstone with a graduate work force, which has been recognised of the economic stimulus package in the States—we as crucial to our economic well-being by Lord Leitch appear to be going in the opposite direction. Yesterday and the UK Commission for Employment and Skills. when I challenged the Prime Minister at the Liaison Of course, relatively few of the 1.96 million undergraduates Committee about the funding of science and higher studying in our universities will go into academic careers. education, it was disappointing that he said: Most will find their way into a variety of careers serving the public and private sectors. “What America has not done is what we have done over the last ten years which is to double the science budget and America However, one thing is absolutely certain: it will be the is trying to catch up in a way that we have been investing development of intellectual capital honed in our universities consistently in science over these last few years.” that powers the UK out of recession and helps to That is palpably not so. Throughout the whole of the resolve the huge global challenges that face us. As Bush years, an equivalent proportion of public funds someone who has been close to the sector all my adult was spent on science in the US and in the UK—funding life, I recognise just how life-changing a university was virtually pound for pound in proportional terms. education can be. Few of us in Westminster Hall this The UK was catching up after the disaster of the afternoon would be here if it had not been for some Thatcher years, which is when the real damage was involvement with higher education. I came from a small done to our science base and our higher education. back-to-back house in Burnley with an outside toilet Frankly, such statements are not worthy of a Prime and one cold water tap, yet here I am. I am deeply Minister and a former Chancellor who has done more grateful to Carnegie college in Leeds and to Birmingham to support science in his time in Parliament than probably university for what they have given me. Although I have any other member of the current Government. always rejected the 50 per cent. target set by Tony Blair Although I do not buy into the emotive statements of for the expansion of HE, I celebrate his ambition and the Russell group—I am sure that the Minister will that of others that more young people from backgrounds comment on them—claiming that the current cuts will like mine should be encouraged to stay on at school and plunge the sector back 800 years, the group has recognised aim higher than their peers and parents. that reverse gear is not a sensible option when we are in However, as Chair of the Select Committee on Science a race to the top. Perhaps more worrying than the and Technology, I also recognise that simply sending petulant screams of a sector that has done very well more young people to university is not a sufficient goal over the past decade, is the fact that a number of forces in itself. Although I would defend the right of young are merging that threaten the ability of the sector to 135WH University Places (England)3 FEBRUARY 2010 University Places (England) 136WH

[Mr. Willis] students going into higher education, but there has been a 23 per cent. increase in applications from Barnsley meet the demand for places generated by the success of for the university of Huddersfield campus. The quota our schools, our universities and, yes, the Government’s cannot be met because there is a freeze on places. As own policies. That has, I think, been supported by all places become scarce and entry levels increase, there the political parties represented in the House. will be a cascade effect for students down the perceived It should not come as a surprise to the Minister or to order of institutions, and it will be the poor, non-traditional any of us that UCAS applications have risen by 12 per students who miss out. That could be one of the cruellest cent. this year. The numbers have been swelled by the deceptions played on some of our most vulnerable 160,000 students who had the qualifications, but not the young people. I want the Minister to explain how he places last year. The recession means that many 18 to will protect the interests of that group. 24-year-olds are seeking to invest in their own futures Other, perhaps more sinister, forces are at work. On through higher education, rather than go on the dole. 24 January The Sunday Times published an article with The work of science and engineering communities has the following headline: resulted in a significant increase in the demand for “Universities slash places in cash crisis; A funding squeeze will science, engineering and technology places. Our universities mean thousands of would-be students missing out”. have bitten the bullet and actively sought out new cohorts of students from non-traditional backgrounds It was more like a headline from The Sun. Claims that and from adults who want to study part-time. That is a Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, King’s, Imperial and huge success story, in which we should all take great Warwick were freezing places were perhaps not surprising, pride. as they had already said that they would not take additional places unless there was funding. Others, such as the London School of Economics, Essex, Manchester Mr. Andrew Smith (Oxford, East) (Lab): I congratulate and Edinburgh were cutting places. The university of the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. Edinburgh was allegedly reducing its intake by 1,300— Of course, world-class universities are absolutely crucial roughly a third of places. Other universities, such as to my constituency and, as he says, to the future cultural, Manchester, made moves to deliberately recruit below individual and economic development of this country. the limit to avoid penalties imposed by the Secretary of On his reference to all parties, I would like to place on State. A storm is brewing on student places, and it is the record my strong support for continuing the big one that I want the Minister to address. investment that has been made, not only in science, but in higher education more generally. I am very concerned Let me be clear that I understand the dilemma for that it should be sustained for the future. our universities, particularly for those offering SET courses. Are universities to recruit more students, even Mr. Willis: I thank the right hon. Gentleman. I share though the institutions have lower amounts of money, his passion for higher education, which is not only which will damage quality, or are they simply to reject because of the constituency he represents, but because students? That is a real challenge for them. I understand he has genuine enthusiasm. The purpose of raising the the argument, but the Secretary of State appears to debate in a non-party political way is to show that the dismiss it. On Monday, Lord Mandelson claimed that issue transcends politics and that unless we maintain the proposed cuts were so minor that universities could our commitment we will slip down the ladder. absorb them. The situation regarding places is worrying. Last year, Does the Minister agree with his Secretary of State? pressure was put on the Secretary of State and he found No one is listening, so he can tell us frankly whether he 10,000 additional university places in the summer, but does. Does he dismiss the claims, particularly from our he then announced that there would be no funding to research-intensive universities, that less money per student go with them, even though they were mostly SET means less quality? If he does not dismiss those claims, places. Universities cannot deliver science and engineering the issue needs to be addressed. How do we prepare the courses without appropriate funding, and it is nonsense next generation of scientists and engineers if we cannot to expect them to pick up that tab. In December, we saw offer them appropriate amounts of laboratory experience £600 million axed from science in HE budgets, which or access to the most up-to-date equipment? will affect the area I am most interested in—science. If it was simply a domestic matter to be resolved by Just yesterday, a further £250 million was slashed from English or UK universities and the Government, perhaps teaching budgets. According to Sir Alan Langlands, the the situation might be a little easier, but sadly it is not. boss of the Higher Education Funding Council for Our higher education system is so widely respected that England, that will mean 6,000 fewer places. demand from EU and non-EU students to study here The question is whether our universities can cope. has grown in the past decade at a greater rate than Should they absorb the additional places and ride out demand from the indigenous student population. Indeed, the storm? Perhaps they can, but with no extra funding EU and international students add considerably to our and a penalty of £3,500 if they recruit additional students economy and culture and to the diversity of our universities, above the quota, few will take the risk. The net impact is and they spend roughly £2.3 billion in the local economy that the very students the Government, schools and in off-campus expenditure, so we welcome them. I would universities have worked so hard to help gain qualifications like to put it on the record that the HE sector should be and make applications will now be denied access at the immensely proud of the talent it draws from overseas in gates of our universities. an increasingly competitive overseas market. I visited the university of Huddersfield last Thursday However, to ask how those increasing overseas and found that it has done some remarkable work in applications sit with the general upsurge in demand for Barnsley. That town is not noted for the number of its UK university places is a legitimate question. International 137WH University Places (England)3 FEBRUARY 2010 University Places (England) 138WH student places are allocated and funded entirely separately the House, on higher education and the question of from UK places and do not form part of the same student numbers. The debate is given added relevance, quotas set by HEFCE, but does the Minister know of however, by the funding context, part of which he any evidence that suggests that universities are lowering outlined in his contribution. Obviously, that has been their offers to overseas students at undergraduate or against the background of this year’s higher education postgraduate level to expand that lucrative market? recruitment round. After all, with no cap on international student fees and I have publicly described some of the reactions to the the cost of courses currently ranging from £8,500 to Government’s announcement in the grant letter written £32,000, it is inevitable in the recovery from the recession to universities shortly before Christmas as amounting that most universities will want to attract as many to scaremongering. I note that in his Yorkshire Post international students as possible. Perhaps the Minister article last week, the hon. Gentleman said that it was could offer reassurance that he is taking steps to monitor “academic hysteria and hyperbole”. We agree on that. what could be a potential problem for the future. It is important that we put all that is written about EU students, however, are a different matter. Under the savings that we have asked the sector to make— EU law, all EU students in the UK are treated exactly I shall say a bit more about that shortly—against the the same as UK students. They count towards the same backdrop of record investment over the past decade. I HEFCE student numbers, face the same £3,145 tuition was pleased that the hon. Gentleman’s article took due fees as their UK counterparts and are entitled to the note of the generosity of higher education funding same grants and subsidised loans to cover the cost of settlements in recent years, and of the success of the fees and living expenses. They also compete for the Government’s policy of enabling many more people to same places, which is the key point. The UK is an benefit from university education. I am pleased that he increasingly popular destination for European students, mentioned that again today. and applications from the EU are increasing at a higher The Government’s record on expanding access to rate than those from within the UK. Last year, although higher education in terms of simple undergraduate the number of British applicants rose by 8.8 per cent., numbers and the social make-up of the student body is the number of applicants from the rest of the EU rose a proud one. Frankly, the achievements of the past even more quickly, by 16.4 per cent. 13 years are thrown into sharp relief by the failures of EU students are drawn primarily to the Russell group the previous 18. I do not want to be overly political—that universities and those with the greatest international has not been the tone of this debate—but we should reputation. That inevitably means that UK students remember that the unit of resource in universities fell by applying to those universities are less likely to get in as 38 per cent. between 1991 and 1997. That led to huge the level of competition is higher. Although we certainly class sizes and poor facilities across the country for want to ensure that our universities recruit the most STEM subjects—science, technology, engineering and talented students from all over Europe, that must not be maths—on which the hon. Gentleman is particularly at the expense of places for UK students, many of keen. In fact, he will remember, and may well have been whom simply cannot afford to study at universities far part of, the Save British Science campaign. Things had from home. got to that stage. What can the Minister do to ensure that there are We are light years away from that today. The backdrop, sufficient places available in our research-intensive as of this moment, is that we have more students in universities for UK students who are more likely to stay higher education, a broader spread of young people in the UK after studying and use the skills we have from different social backgrounds in our universities invested in to enhance our country’s economy and skills and more students from a British but nevertheless ethnic base? What evidence does he have that graduates who minority background than ever before in our history. come from the EU go on to contribute to the UK We also have better facilities. Our commitment to a economy? If they do not, what steps is he taking to ring-fenced science budget and to research is something encourage them to do so? of which we can be very proud, and I am pleased to As an aside, what steps is the Minister taking to honour and repeat it to the House today. recover student loan repayments? Figures published in Statements about STEM have been made this afternoon. 2009 revealed that among the 2,240 EU students who I want to remind the hon. Member for Harrogate and have so far become eligible to start paying back loans, Knaresborough that, notwithstanding the savings that only 1,580 were doing so, leaving taxpayers with a we have asked the sector to make, it is still the case that potential £3.8 million bill. It would be ironic if UK public funding in research will increase by 7 per cent. in students were denied places in universities because of the next financial year. That is our commitment, and, as competition from EU students and then ended up the Prime Minister indicated, it does hold up to what we contributing in their taxes to pay for the loans that were have seen in the United States. Because of where we not paid back. I leave him with that little problem. have come from, our commitment to support science should not be underestimated. 4.18 pm On funding, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will at least recognise our record and remember that many of The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual the savings that we have asked the sector to make relate Property (Mr. David Lammy): As usual, I am grateful to to capital spend that we brought forward from last year the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough to this year as a fiscal stimulus—£250 million—and to (Mr. Willis)—[Interruption.] I think that he might be capital spend that over the period of the Labour ringing me as well just to make sure I get the point. He Government amounts to more than £6 billion. That is has chosen a topical subject. In fact, this is the sixth against a backdrop of a capital spend on further education debate that we have had, in either Westminster Hall or of zero when we came to power, and of much less on 139WH University Places (England)3 FEBRUARY 2010 University Places (England) 140WH

[Mr. David Lammy] The hon. Gentleman has been keen to ensure that there is no suggestion that quality is not fundamental to higher education than today’s. I hope that when he our system, so he will understand that it has never been looks carefully at the grant letter, he will recognise that the case in our history that everyone who wanted to we have made our decision—obviously, HEFCE was in could go to university. Demand is rising. At this point on the detail of it—in order to protect front-line teaching in the year, many young people will have applied, but and our commitment to a ring-fenced science budget. not all those who apply over the autumn and into Much has been said against how that stacks up in January eventually make their way to university. Some relation to university places. The supply of university make other decisions, and that is why we have announced places for home students has grown, and the supply of an extra 35,000 advanced apprenticeships. We want fully funded places will grow again this year, but demand young people to take up advanced apprenticeships in for them has grown even faster. In part, that is a product new and important technical and professional areas of of our policies and schemes such as Aimhigher, but our economy. We have announced places in further also, given the wider economy, students are looking to education in new areas and in STEM areas because we higher education as somewhere that they want to be. recognise that this is not just about higher education. We make a distinction between higher-level skills and The hon. Gentleman knows how much effort the higher education. Government have put into helping young people over this period, with our Backing Young Britain campaign It is also the case that there are students who get and, underneath it, the guarantee of a job, training or straight As who do not go to university in the year that work for young people. He referred to the 10,000 places they applied because they did not get into the course or that we brought forward last year and the signalling of university that they wanted. They take a gap year or our intention that those places should support new they do some further study and apply again. industries, the new jobs agenda and the STEM agenda, I want to reassure the hon. Member for Harrogate about which he is particularly concerned. and Knaresborough, and to shed a bit more light than It is far too early in the cycle to whip up fear about heat as I stand here in February, by saying that we student university places. I was concerned when I was at should see how things go throughout the year, remembering a school in my constituency this week that those young that this year is different from last year. This year, we people, seeing the headlines, will begin to worry that can at least say that we are not in the grip of and at the there will not be a place for them at university this year. height of the recession—we have moved out of it. We I say to the sector and to those who are concerned remain vigilant about employment, but we are moving about it that we should be measured in our language. in the right direction. At this point last year, exactly the same things were Statements have been made about international students. being said. Some people said that clearing would last I was speaking to the leaders of the University Alliance for about half a day. It lasted for weeks. They said that group this morning. They reassured me, as I want to barely 10,000 people would find a place through clearing, reassure the House, that these are separate markets. We but 40,000 students found a place. They said that there welcome the growth in the number of international would be a terrible crunch and students would be left students— with nothing. We have more students at university than ever before in our history, and we will have more students at university next year than we have ever had. I Joan Walley (in the Chair): Order. I am afraid that we reassure the hon. Gentleman about that. must move on to our last but not least debate. 141WH 3 FEBRUARY 2010 Punjabi Community in Britain 142WH

Punjabi Community in Britain decision of the early 1980s, Sikhs are not only a religious group in the United Kingdom but are legally recognised by the courts as a racial group. If the ONS got its 4.30 pm wording right and understood the difference between John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I “racial” and “ethnic”, it might make it easier for us to speak as chair of the all-party group on the Punjabi win that change to the census. community in Britain. Hon. Members will know that the group was established 15 or 16 years ago by my right John McDonnell: We have had the argument before. hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr. Spellar) and A straightforward face-to-face meeting with the ONS others. At that point it focused on human rights. In should resolve the matter. We simply want to reflect the 1997 we expanded the scope of the group to include a legal decisions that have been taken to date. range of issues affecting the Punjabi community in Secondly, maintaining Punjabi culture and language Britain. The group is now acknowledged as the voice of has been one of the long-standing concerns of the the Punjabi community in Parliament. community and our all-party group. Over the past We have had regular debates and interventions in decade, with the support of the Government, but driven terms of meetings with Ministers, and we have held largely by the voluntary efforts of the Punjabi community seminars and working groups on the environment, health, itself, Punjabi culture has not just blossomed, it has human rights, nationality and visa issues. As a result of permeated our whole society—from dance, bhangra, our work we have influenced the Government’s agenda music, traditional and modern, to film, drama, theatre over the past 12 years. We would not have been able to and television, the most recent programme in that do that work if it was not for the voluntary support regard being “The Family”, which was almost an from our researcher and co-ordinator, Iqbal Singh, and addictive watching experience. That has happened other colleagues. as a result of, and thanks to, the major contribution by the Punjabi media. From time to time we have had Adjournment debates— this one is relatively brief—to sum up where we are on Desi Radio, for example, is a community radio station various issues. We have taken a slightly different approach funded partly by Government initiatives when it was set to preparing for this debate, in that we have gone to our up and awarded a radio licence. It has demonstrated by constituents via the Punjabi media, including Desi Radio, its success how radio can be used to maintain and Des Pardes and Punjab Radio, and invited them to promote culture. Punjab Radio and others have made submit issues that we should raise in this debate. their contribution as well. There is a continuing need to support access to radio licences and wavelengths for I appreciate that the list is wide-ranging. We will try community radio, and to consider the support that to cover as much as we can in the time available. I also needs to be given to sustain them in the long term. appreciate that it puts the Minister in a difficult position in respect of responding to all the issues we raise. We Mr. Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): I would welcome at least the recognition that the issues congratulate my hon. Friend on raising this important have been taken note of, with responses made subsequently issue. Being a Punjabi myself, coming from that region, if there is no time today. I should say, as my hon. Friend has, that we have The first issue is about recognition. Statistics from contributed to this country, not only in respect of the Office for National Statistics estimate that there are culture but in other areas, including the political, social approaching nearly a million people of Punjabi origin and educational fields. Importantly, my hon. Friend in this country. Punjabi is this country’s second language. will agree that we have exempted the Sikh community in The largest proportion of that population is Sikh, yet this country from wearing helmets. That means that concern remains that Sikhs are not recognised in the Sikhs have been legally recognised as a group and a census as an ethnic category. The 2011 census is coming community in the past. It is important that, as my hon. up and is now in preparation, but there is still resistance Friend has already said, the Minister takes this matter from the ONS to the inclusion of a Sikh question. on board so that we can clear up this point for the Jasvir Singh Rayat, a constituent of mine and a well-known future. Punjabi radio presenter, contacted me yesterday asking me to mention that. We have had representations on John McDonnell: Exactly. There is a series of legal that matter from a number of groups and organisations precedents, not just on the wearing of helmets, but in this week. respect of the recognition of the status of Sikhs in law and the recognition of other practices, including wearing On Monday a report was released examining the of the kirpan, which warrants the ONS taking a similarly process used by the ONS to select the ethnic groups for flexible approach. the 2011 questionnaire, and arguing for a change to it to include a separate tick-box for Sikhs. That reflects legal My hon. Friend mentioned education. The role of decisions that have been made over years in our courts. schools in maintaining culture and language is critical. The ONS has still to finalise the questionnaire for the Again, we will all want to pay tribute to the work that census, so will the Minister see whether she can facilitate has been done by the Government in promoting Sikh a meeting with the ONS to resolve the issue? Time is schools. The work of Guru Nanak school has been so tight, because it is hoped that the questionnaire will be successful in demonstrating not just how educational determined at least by the end of February. standards can be improved, but how that can be done in a way that integrates with the wider community and Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): Does does not involve a separatist approach. my hon. Friend agree that there is a problem with On culture, may I raise one issue that we have not categories in that the census mentions ethnic groups mentioned before and make a plea in that regard? when it means racial groups? Following the Mandla Culture is more than just music and dance. It is sport as 143WH Punjabi Community in Britain3 FEBRUARY 2010 Punjabi Community in Britain 144WH

[John McDonnell] from the visa section. Will the Minister take on board the community’s request for an embassy official to be well. We ask the Government to consider how they can based in Jalandhar to facilitate visa applications from assist in promoting specific Punjabi sports. I plead for there? recognition of what some call kodi and others call kabaadi, which is a sport best described as a combination John McDonnell: That is a heartfelt issue throughout of rugby played without a ball, all-in wrestling and the community, and my hon. Friend has accurately possibly chess. Kabaadi or kodi is an exciting Punjabi reflected what we hear from families at our surgeries sport, but it needs support from the Government to time and again. assist in regularising the institutions that promote and manage it in the UK. Recognition is needed, as is Student visas have been controversial recently, and funding support to train people and develop the sport we are all aware that there have been scams at both ends in this country. May I suggest that the Minister goes of the system, with some people who are not students back to her colleagues and requests that Sport England, applying for visas. The Government have taken drastic or whatever appropriate body, convenes a meeting of all action, but we are worried that those who genuinely the interested parties to discuss how we can move want to come here to study may be penalised. The visa forward to put kabaadi on a secure footing for the application policy for students should be sensitive. long-term future? There is also an issue with bogus colleges here taking Thirdly, my constituents have asked me to raise the students on and extracting large fees, but not offering issue of how they can maintain contact with the Punjab proper educational opportunities. I have come across and its heritage. British Punjabis naturally want to that problem in my constituency, and have investigated maintain their contacts with the Punjab and their cultural them. A problem with Preston college in Clayton road and religious heritage and, of course, their families and in Hayes was raised with me this week. It has been relatives by being able to visit there. A number of taking fees, but not providing the promised standard continuing concerns have been raised with us in recent of education. I would welcome discussion with the years. For example, many British Punjabis wish to visit relevant Department on how to resolve the issue of and perform their religious duties, including visiting student visas sensitively. Amritsar, the Golden Temple, the Darbar Sahib, but The all-party group has been a human rights group there are worries about the continuing threat to flights for a long time, and we have not dropped that work, into Amritsar international airport from high landing which is still a concern of the group and the community. charges in comparison with those at Delhi. May I An issue that was raised during the previous debate is suggest that the Government urge the Indian Government the death penalty that still hangs over the head of to do all they can to secure the future of Amritsar Professor Davinder Singh Bhullar, There were confessions, airport and maintain its accessibility? but they were produced as a result of torture. The case Another issue that we have raised in Parliament this is not secure, and the death penalty should be removed year, which has also been raised in the community, is in India; it should certainly not hang over that man’s access to Kartarpur Sahib, the former abode of Baba head. Guru Nanak Ji, which is a holy site for the Sikhs. The same problem exists in Pakistan with Sarabjit Partition more than 60 years ago resulted in Kartarpur Singh. Amnesty International took up his case, and Sahib being located in Pakistan, only 3 km from the some of us have been on delegations to the Pakistan Indian border but separate from India. We have been High Commission. Will the Government raise those lobbying for some time now for Pakistan and India to two cases, and the death penalty generally, with the agree to open up the border at that point to allow free High Commissions of India and Pakistan? access to this holy place. There has been some There is a human rights issue in this country with dialogue, but not full agreement. Will the Government caste discrimination. At the weekend, my hon. Friend offer their good offices to assist in negotiating a resolution the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Sharma) and I to the problem, and to facilitate access? That would be were at the Sri Ravi Guru Dass Ji temple in Southall, very gratefully received by the Punjabi community in which has led the campaign to ensure that we outlaw Britain. caste discrimination in this country.We have an opportunity On visas more generally, issues continue to be raised to do so in the Equality Bill, and we have tabled an as constituents seek to ensure that family members amendment to outlaw caste discrimination. Ministers from the Punjab visit them for weddings, birthdays and, have said that they are not convinced that there is regrettably, funerals. We welcome the Government’s sufficient evidence of caste discrimination in the UK, so accession to our long-standing request to open a visa we have provided that evidence. We have also provided office in Jalandhar, and that has been incredibly helpful, them with a fall-back position. If they are still not but it needs to be upgraded to a full office to undertake convinced, they could take a reserve power so that if the full range of duties: applications, interviews, decisions further evidence becomes available later, they could and, yes, appeals. Again, it would avoid the arduous introduce delegated legislation outlawing caste burden on British Punjabis and their families of the discrimination, instead of having to wait for primary costly journey to Delhi. Will the Minister review that, legislation. and report on it as a matter of urgency, because we have I want to raise some ongoing issues from the previous been arguing for that for some time? debate a few years ago on which we seek follow-up. The first concerns prisoners of war on the western front Mr. Sharma: It is important when talking about visas during the second world war who came from the Punjab, to realise that many people come from the Punjab to served in the British Army, and were taken prisoner in this country, but visa filing services have no officials north Africa. Many died, but many were taken by the 145WH Punjabi Community in Britain3 FEBRUARY 2010 Punjabi Community in Britain 146WH

Nazis to Europe as slave labour and suffered immensely. Each year, the all-party group holds Vasaikhi celebrations I have met Ministry of Defence officials, and the Minister and a Punjabi cultural awards ceremony, and I congratulate has now taken a personal interest in the matter and has all those who have received awards over the past few agreed to consider proposals to acknowledge that service years on their work in the Punjabi community. They are and suffering. We are putting proposals together and the heroes and heroines of our community and have will submit them this week. All the former prisoners are worked hard voluntarily. On 24 March, we will hold our asking for is an acknowledgement. The issue is not Vasaikhi celebrations and award celebrations in the about compensation at the moment. They want an Jubilee Room, and I invite the Minister and all hon. acknowledgement of the service that they gave and the Members to come along. It will be a celebration of the suffering that they went through. I commend Colonel Punjabi community’s contribution to this country, which Chanan Singh Dhillon on the persistence with which he has been immense over generations. has pursued this campaign. We also raised the tragic circumstances of the murder 4.49 pm of Tarsem Singh Purewal, editor of Des Pardes, more The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for than 20 years ago. At that time, we sought information Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): from the Home Office and the Metropolitan police It is an honour to have you in the Chair this afternoon, about the continuing investigation of the case. Still no Ms Walley, and it is also an honour to take part in what, one has been brought to justice for perpetrating that thanks to the dedication of the all-party group on the murder. I would welcome an update from the Home Punjabi community in Britain, and its chair, my hon. Friend Office and the Metropolitan police on what has happened the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), to the investigation. It is time to find the truth. That has become a regular debate on the Punjabi community might not relieve the family’s suffering for the loss of in Britain. their loved one, but at least it might bring some closure. Today’s debate, and the detailed community-based Another issue, which has also been raised again this research that has gone into its preparation, has been week by some of the gurdwaras is the wearing of the wide-ranging and informative. It is also very timely. kirpan. That religious practice is pursued by all baptised Only two weeks ago, my right hon. Friend the Secretary Sikhs, and rightly so. Yet despite years of negotiation of State for Communities and Local Government with the Home Office to obtain clear guidelines, there (Mr. Denham) launched the Government’s paper “Tackling are still problems with security staff. They have arisen at race inequality: a statement on race”. That paper recognised Heathrow, Wembley and other public places, and I am that although Britain has changed a lot over the past worried that with the Olympics coming up there could 10 years, there are still problems such as the wearing of be a problem if we do not take action now. We would the kirpan that we need to tackle. Some of those issues welcome the Government reiterating the guidelines. We have been mentioned in today’s debate, and I congratulate could then be proactive in promoting them with public the all-party group, and its many friends, on the work it bodies and agencies, and private sector security companies does to address such issues in our country. so that they are aware of the guidelines and the importance The legislative and community framework in which of Sikhs’ religious practice of wearing the kirpan, and the all-party group is working has, as I said earlier, so that there is no conflict or confrontation as we move changed a great deal and will continue to do so thanks towards the Olympics. to the Equality Bill, which is currently making its way In the time remaining, I want to raise two points. One through Parliament. As the then Minister responsible is tragic. A few months ago, The Observer reported for equality, I played a large part in drafting the Bill, so what has happened in the town of Bathinda in the I am extremely familiar with the arguments about caste- Punjab and villages in the surrounding area. It reported based discrimination and prejudice, and I have spoken children suffering from cerebral palsy and a range of to hon. Members about that at length. other deformities resulting from environmental pollution. I know that some Members would like to have seen The photographs and report were incredibly distressing. that issue dealt with in the Equality Bill, and my hon. An international response is needed to investigate the Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington explained causes, because the scale of the problem in those villages the Government’s position extremely well. The Government has led to a belief among the Punjabis that the problem have not found sufficient evidence for the existence of stretches right across the Punjab and results from caste-based discrimination in the United Kingdom that environmental pollution, possibly caused by coal generators is compelling enough to require a major change to the in the area, but other issues such as uranium and law, particularly as the areas where it is said to occur—and subsoil pollution are also a possibility.Will the Government where I believe it does occur—may already be covered consider how they can co-operate with and assist the by other legislation. However, there has been progress, Indian Government to research and investigate the matter, and the Government are commissioning independent and help the families of those who have suffered. research on caste prejudice and discrimination in the A personal and abiding concern is the injustice of UK. We made a commitment in the other place to give Britain retaining the Koh-i-noor diamond. It was a progress report on it when the Equality Bill reaches owned by the last maharajah of the Punjab, Maharajah Report, and I hope that provides hon. Members with Dalip Singh, and was stolen from him when he was a some assurance that we are taking the matter seriously. child by the East India Company and given to Queen The story of Britain’s Punjabi community is one of Victoria when Dalip Singh was removed from his throne. great success. The community has been successfully It is part of the Crown jewels in the Tower of London. integrated in British life while managing to remain both It would be an act of generous justice to return it to culturally confident and distinct. As part of the wider the people of the Punjab, simply because it is theirs, Indian group, Punjabis have managed to achieve educational not ours. and employment levels that are above—in some cases 147WH Punjabi Community in Britain3 FEBRUARY 2010 Punjabi Community in Britain 148WH

[Barbara Follett] glad to say that guidance for the application process for those grants, which can be quite complicated, is also very much above—those of the rest of the community. available in Punjabi. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington, I pay tribute to the Guru Nanak school in Southall for John McDonnell: The Minister mentioned the BBC. making such a contribution. There is still concern among the Punjabi community about the lack of representation of Punjabi interest on Mr. Sharma: That school is in Hayes. However, there the BBC, and about Punjabi representation on the is a school in Southall in my constituency that I am sure various boards and advisory bodies of the BBC, particularly will prove as efficient as the one in Hayes. in television.

Barbara Follett: I thank my hon. Friend for correcting Barbara Follett: I will note that point and mention it me. I meant to thank the Guru Nanak school in Hayes to my colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media for its contribution not only to the Punjabi community, and Sport. but to the whole of the United Kingdom. The promotion of sports, including the recognition In a previous ministerial life, I was involved in the of kabaadi—I hope I am pronouncing it correctly—is 2011 census as the Minister responsible for equality. I something that we are extremely keen on for various know that there is a long-standing lobby for the Sikh reasons, such as health, culture and general well-being. group, along with other groups, to be given a dedicated I understand that kabaadi requires agility, good muscular tick-box in the ethnic category question of the census. co-ordination, presence of mind, excellent lung capacity, As Members know, the Office for National Statistics and an ability to anticipate the moves of one’s opponents— consulted widely on the content of the census in 2006 attributes that many Members of the House could do and 2007. At the end of that process, it decided for with. I am happy to promote it both to Members of the financial and continuity purposes that the number of House and to other members of the community. dedicated options had to be limited. Although it introduced My hon. Friend for Hayes and Harlington mentioned two new categories, neither of those was Sikh. several other matters, which I will run through in the However, the ONS has said that when a person filling two minutes that remain for the debate. On access to the in a census form does not feel that their ethnicity is Punjab, sadly, the high cost of flying to locations in appropriately described by a tick-box answer, they can the Punjab due to airport tariffs is a matter for the write it in the space provided on the form. The questionnaire Indian Government. We are pleased that the visa office also gives people the space to record their religion in has now been established, and I will write to my hon. the same way. As my hon. Friend the Member for Friend with further details, and follow up the remarks Hayes and Harlington requested, I will make further made by him and by my hon. Friend the Member for representations to the ONS on the subject on behalf of Ealing, Southall (Mr. Sharma) about student visas. the all-party group, but I fear that we are probably too Human rights is a difficult subject that is obviously late to make much difference. raised in bilateral and multilateral talks between the British and Indian Governments. That will continue to Rob Marris: I wonder if I could prevail on the Minister be the case. On the subject of former prisoners of war, I to facilitate a meeting between concerned Members of look forward to receiving the letter from my hon. Friend Parliament and the ONS to explore the issue further the Member for Hayes and Harlington and will help to before it comes to the House for a final decision. take it further. On the possible death sentence for Professor Bhullar, Barbara Follett: I give my hon. Friend an undertaking as hon. Members know, the Government oppose the death that I will try to do that. Sometimes it is not as easy as penalty in all circumstances. We have made the Indian one would imagine to effect such meetings, particularly Government very aware of our position. Similarly, when time is tight. on environmental pollution in the Punjab, I know This seems to be a journey through my ministerial that many organisations are working on that difficult life: after being Minister responsible for equality, I problem—it might be wise to mention it to the became a Minister in the Department for Culture, Media Department for International Development in particular. and Sport. While at the DCMS, I was impressed by the I am afraid that the Koh-i-noor diamond is a matter amount of work being done with radio stations, BBC way above my pay grade, and I suggest that my hon. television and the Asian network radio service to promote Friend looks at other ways of raising that subject. Asian and Punjabi culture. I was particularly interested in the work done by Arts Council England, which 5pm includes a number of south-east Asian arts organisations Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order in its portfolio of regularly funded organisations. I am No.10(11)). 11WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS

Secondly, we need to ensure that the scheme both Written Ministerial does not create perverse incentives through awarding excessively generous payments to some individuals on Statements redundancy, and complies with age discrimination legislation by ensuring that the level of severance payments awarded is primarily linked to length of service, not to Wednesday 3 February 2010 age. Thirdly, we need to ensure the reforms provide additional protection to the lowest paid staff. TREASURY Cabinet Office officials have held numerous meetings with the civil service unions since July 2008. We consulted fully on the provisional proposals that the Cabinet Terrorist Asset Freezing Office published in “Fairness For All” on 31 July 2009, receiving over 18,000 comments in response. I met with the civil service unions on 22 September as part of that The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah process. McCarthy-Fry): Following the Supreme Court’s decision in relation to the Government’s asset-freezing powers, I In our response to the consultation, on 4 December announced the Treasury’s intention to consider fast-track 2009 we modified our original proposals to reflect the legislation to reinstate the asset-freezing regime. comments we had received. There were two issues that came through particularly strongly in the responses to It is our intention to introduce legislation that effectively the consultation and in my meeting with the unions. reinstates the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) These were, the need to ensure that the lowest paid Order 2009, which the Government have in the past workers with long service could still access up to three used in good faith. It is our belief that the fast-track years’ pay in compensation on redundancy, and the legislation would be a proper response to the ongoing need to preserve the option of access to an unreduced significant threat from international terrorism. pension on redundancy for those close to pension age. In order for the House to give adequate scrutiny to the proposed legislation, copies of the 2009 Order are I met with the unions again on 17 December to available in the Vote Office and have been deposited in discuss our revised proposals. I asked Cabinet Office the Library. Copies of the legislation itself will be officials to have further meetings with the unions in available immediately on the introduction of the Bill. order to see if it were possible to reach agreement Our ambition is to mirror the 2009 Order in the legislation within the parameters of the principles that have been we present to the House. established. The Government also intend to bring forward affirmative Following these discussions, I am pleased that we procedure regulations under section 2(2) of the European have reached agreement with five of the six main civil Communities Act 1972 to ensure that enforcement service unions on a modified set of proposals. Unite, provisions are in place to implement fully EC Regulation the GMB, Prospect, the Prison Officers’ Association, 881/2002 in respect of measures against al-Qaeda and and the FDA have agreed that these terms represent a the Taliban. fair deal for their members. Together, these five unions Taken together, the Government believe that these represent a cross section of civil service staff across all measures will help maintain an effective, proportionate grades, ages and professions. The sixth and largest and fair terrorist asset-freezing regime that meets our union PCS has not agreed the terms, but its members, United Nations obligations, protects national security along with all other civil servants, will be subject to the by disrupting flows of terrorist finance, and safeguards settlement with the implementation of the amending human rights. order. The new terms provide added protection, enabling the lowest paid to continue to receive a service-related CABINET OFFICE redundancy payment of up to three years’ pay, up to a maximum of £60,000. As in our earlier proposals, payments Civil Service Compensation Scheme will be capped at a maximum of two years’ pay for higher earners. The added protection for the lowest paid means that those earning under £20,000 will not be The Minister for the Cabinet Office and for the Olympics, affected by the new cap limiting severance payments to and Paymaster General (Tessa Jowell): I am pleased to two years’ pay, while those earning between £20,000 inform the House that the Government have now finalised and £30,000 will be eligible for severance payments of terms for reform of the civil service compensation scheme up to between two and three years’ pay. and that we have agreed these terms with the FDA, We have also agreed some further transitional protection Prospect, the GMB, Unite and the Prison Officers’ for existing staff. If made compulsorily redundant, staff Association. aged at least 50 as of 31 March 2010–and with a The CSCS sets out the terms which departments may minimum of five years’ service–will continue to receive use on redundancy or voluntary exits. In reforming the existing compulsory retirement terms. This means they scheme we have a number of objectives: will continue to receive an early, enhanced pension First, we wish to be certain that the scheme represents based on their years of service as at 31 March 2010, value for money for the taxpayer and delivers the thus providing a significant level of further protection, £500 million saving set out by the Prime Minister in his for those closest to retirement, from the position reached written ministerial statement of 31 March 2009. in December. 13WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS

A relatively small number of civil servants, who joined Our statement today reflects those consultation responses the civil service before 1987, are currently eligible for a and the contribution of these work groups. It confirms reserved right severance payment. Here, we have modified the issues on which our intentions are now firm, as well our earlier proposals so that if made compulsorily as the detailed issues on which there is further work to redundant, these staff would receive a severance payment do with interested stakeholders. In particular the statement based on their years of service as at 31 March 2010, includes commitments to: with the cash value tapered to become equivalent in Establish a national register of landlords, to protect tenants value to the new terms within 3 to 4 years. and support local authority enforcement activity. We will carry We consider that the package of changes addresses out further detailed work with stakeholders to assess whether the register could also be used (either from the outset, or in the concerns raised in the consultation and provides a fair future) to apply registration conditions on persistently poor deal both for civil servants and the taxpayer. landlords. I will lay the scheme amendments before Parliament Introduce full regulation of letting and managing agents. We by the end of this week so as to implement the changes will carry out further detailed work with stakeholders on the to the CSCS from 1 April 2010. exact form of regulation, and whether it is led by an independent regulator, or by industry bodies. Require all tenancies to take the form of a written agreement. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Increase the limit for assured shorthold tenancies from £25,000 a year to £100,000. This will reduce the number of tenants (up Private Rented Sector to 150,000 at present) who do not currently have the protection of an assured shorthold tenancy, and associated protections—such as the requirement to protect a tenant’s deposit. The Minister for Housing (John Healey): I am today We remain committed to legislating at the earliest publishing a policy statement, “The Private Rented opportunity on these commitments to increase the Sector: Professionalism and Quality: consultation responses protection and practical help available to tenants in the and next steps”. This sets out a summary of responses private rented sector. to our consultation document, “The Private Rented These measures are complemented by the Government Sector: Professionalism and Quality—the Government consultation, published by the Treasury—“Investing in response to the Rugg Review”, published on 13 May the UK Private Rented Sector”—also published today, 2009, Official Report, column 50WS and reported to which considers whether there are any substantive barriers the House by the then Minister for Housing, my right to investment in the sector by individuals and institutions. hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Margaret Taken together, steps to raise quality and identify any Beckett). The document that I am publishing today sets barriers to investment should reinforce each other and out Government’s plans following the responses to that create a better private rented sector that can become the consultation. Copies have been placed in the Library of tenure of choice for a wider range of people. the House. The Government want to see a private rented sector which offers high-quality accommodation, and in which ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE tenants can make choices based on clear information about their options, their rights, and their responsibilities. Biomass and Grandfathering We also want to ensure tenants know where to turn if things go wrong. At the same time, Government want The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy to increase professionalism in the private rented sector— and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): My noble supporting good landlords and agents, while driving Friend the Minister of State, Department of Energy out the worst practices of the sector that fail tenants and Climate Change, Lord Hunt, today made the following and damage its reputation. statement: Alongside our longer-term plans for legislation to The UK is committed to a massive expansion of renewable improve standards, today’s document sets out our proposals energy and a thriving, bioenergy industry is key to our goals. to provide better help and support to tenants now. This Indeed, bioenergy could supply up to half of our renewable includes a commitment to set up, by the summer of this energy needs by 2020—for heat, electricity and transport. Used wisely, energy from biomass will reduce CO emissions, make our year, a dedicated helpline for private sector tenants 2 energy supplies more secure, and create new industries and green working with voluntary sector agencies, and an online jobs. consumer feedback website working with consumer Biomass offers wider gains too. Over the next decade it can focus. replace petrochemicals as the source of chemicals and other Our consultation document, published in May 2008, high-value products, as well as energy. Increasingly, the fuel for set out a range of proposals to support a higher-quality, the new bio-economy will be waste materials, including municipal more professional sector, while minimising the regulatory waste diverted from landfill. burden on good landlords and agents. The proposals Biomass supplies will need to increase significantly to deliver included a national register of landlords for England; the step change we want and in the short-term at least we will be full regulation for private sector letting and managing reliant on imports. It is essential that those supplies are sustainable. The Government are determined to ensure that biomass, whether agents; and encouragement to local authorities to create imported or produced in the UK: “local lettings agencies”. delivers real and substantive CO2 savings; Consultation responses were strongly supportive of uses land responsibly avoiding damaging land use change; and the proposals, although there were some concerns about does not undermine global food supplies or inflate prices. specific details, and about implementation. Alongside We are working hard for global sustainability standards on this the formal consultation, Government worked with a basis; and we will ensure that these principles are applied to wide range of organisations on the development of biomass used to generate energy in the UK. We will implement detailed policy to underpin the proposals. the sustainability criteria set within the renewable energy directive 15WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS for biofuels and bioliquids and are pushing for early resolution On 14 December the Department published its response on the within the EU of how to deal with indirect land use change proposal to remove advice to prisoners on treatment matters from effects. the scope of criminal legal aid. In that response we set out that we With sensible, robust controls in place, the UK has a lot to gain would retain funding for serious treatment issues, but that this from biomass energy. I am informed by industry that they expect would be subject to approval from the Legal Services Commission to be able to deliver 5GW of dedicated biomass, energy from on a case-by-case basis. waste, gasification and anaerobic digestion projects over the next Today, the Department has published its response on the civil few years—some £13 billion worth of investment. And industry legal aid proposals set out in “Legal Aid: Refocusing on Priority wish to ensure that developers have a stable regime in which to Cases”. Having taken into account the strong representations we invest. received from interested parties, we will no longer be proceeding To help achieve this, I propose to look again at one aspect of with some of the changes proposed, and others have been modified support for biomass electricity under the renewables obligation. in response to stakeholder concerns. We intend to make a number With most technologies our policy is not, as a rule, to change the of changes to civil legal aid to: level of renewables obligation certificate (ROC) support once a Improve the way that cases involving human rights or public generating station is accredited by Ofgem—that is, support is interest are handled by transferring cases that depend on these “grandfathered”. This is not currently the case for biomass. I am issues to receive funding to a new committee for advice on their aware our current policy not to grandfather the support given for merits. This will help to ensure that legal aid is awarded to biomass electricity under the renewables obligation has caused meritorious cases. significant investment concerns within the industry. We made the Ensure that cases granted legal aid on the basis that the decision not to grandfather biomass in 2008 due to the fact that proceedings will bring benefits to others have a realistic prospect unlike other technologies supported by the renewables obligation, of delivering such wider benefits. biomass electricity generation faces ongoing fuel costs which are subject to market fluctuation in an immature market. We recognised Detect fraudulent legal aid applications earlier, by checking the need for flexibility to consider the impact on biomass prices with the unfunded opponent to ensure that the applicant is when setting the banding levels, and that led to increased support financially eligible for legal aid, with safeguards for domestic for all biomass generators, not just new entrants, on the introduction violence or urgent cases. of banding as a result. In fact, we doubled support for AD and Tighten the funding rules for granting legal aid for judicial dedicated biomass with (CHP). review cases to ensure that funding is directed towards meritorious The feed-in-tariffs for small-scale electricity, announced on cases. 1 February, include tariffs for anaerobic digestion of 11.5 p per Restrict funding for low-value damages claims brought as part kw/h up to 500kW and 9 p per kw/h between 500kW and 5MW. of a multi-party action. This will help to ensure that limited These tariffs are grandfathered, index-linked and will be available resources are available for higher-value cases, or cases brought to generators accrediting at least until 2013. From 1 April this by individuals. year, AD generators who need the security of a fixed rate for Tighten access to civil legal aid in England and Wales for those electricity they generate, will be able to choose to join the feed-in-tariff who do not reside in the UK or associated territories, with scheme rather than the renewables obligation. Given the risk that safeguards for important human rights cases. Non-residents investment will not come forward, DECC will review the policy who are present will still have access to funding for asylum, on grandfathering and prepare a statement before the end of immigration, domestic violence, child protection, mental health March. This review will also consider what action the UK can or capacity detention, and emergency housing cases. take to introduce sustainability standards, following publication of the European Commission’s report on biomass expected this Ensure that where legal aid funds a community action, the February. legal aid contribution mirrors the proportion of the affected population who are actually eligible for legal aid. We intend to implement these changes in April, following ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Parliamentary consideration of the changes to the funding code and regulations. I have placed a copy of the consultation response in the Libraries of both Houses. UK Marine Science Strategy

Unimplemented Criminal Justice Provisions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Huw Irranca-Davies): The “UK Marine Science Strategy” has been published The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice today by the Marine Science Co-ordination Committee. (Claire Ward): My noble Friend, the Parliamentary The strategy is the first of its kind for the UK and will Under-Secretary of State, Lord Bach, has made the help shape, support, co-ordinate and enable the delivery following written ministerial statement: of world class marine science for the UK. Copies of the strategy will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. In June of last year the noble Lord, Lord Patten asked the Government, via a parliamentary question, how many provisions of the 65 Criminal Justice Acts enacted since 1997 are not yet in JUSTICE force; and what those provisions are. It has been necessary to conduct a detailed exercise in order to obtain the information to answer this question. I had anticipated Legal Aid Reform that I would be in a position to provide this information by the end of last year and I apologise for the delay in responding. However, this exercise has now been completed and I am pleased The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice to be able to respond to Lord Patten’s request. Provisions contained (Bridget Prentice): My noble Friend the Parliamentary within the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, which received Royal Under-Secretary of State for Justice, Lord Bach, has Assent on the final day of the Fourth Session, have not been made the following written ministerial statement: considered as part of this exercise. Between 16 July and 8 October 2009 the Ministry of Justice Other than the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, 19 Acts containing consulted on changes to legal aid funding rules. “Legal Aid: criminal justice provisions have been enacted since 1997 for which Refocusing on Priority Cases” set out a range of proposals to the Ministry of Justice has responsibility, either in full or in part. tighten the civil and criminal legal aid funding rules to target Of these 19 Acts of Parliament, 68 of the sections for which the resources more effectively. Ministry of Justice has policy responsibility currently remain 17WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS unimplemented, either in full or in part and 25 of the schedules to these Acts are yet to be commenced in full or in part. A full list of Act Unimplemented Provision provisions is contained within the table below. Schedule 7 (Paragraphs 5, 7-11, 15(l)(a)- Of the unimplemented provisions, many are minor, consequential (d),(f),(g), 16, 17, 18(1), (2), (3)(a), (b), (c)(ii), 20, 22(l)(a)-(d), (f), or transitional provisions, for example all of the unimplemented (g),23,24,25(l),(2),(3)(a),(b), paragraphs in schedule 7 to the Criminal Justice and Courts (c)(ii),(4),27,29(l)(a)-(d),(f),(g), Services Act 2000. Of the remaining unimplemented provisions 30,31,32(l),(2),(3)(a),(b),(c)(ii), 33-36, 39, there are valid reasons for the delay as is illustrated by the 54-56, 59, 60, 62-70, 73, 76, 98, 108, 109, examples set out below: 112-115, 119, 134, 149, 178, 180-188, 190- 194, 197(a), (d),(e),201(2)(b),(3),202(2)(b), The majority of unimplemented provisions are contained within 203(5), 204 and 211) the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and relate to sentencing policy Criminal Justice Act 2003 Sections 29(4), 33(3), 34, 35, 43, 53, 62-65, including the legal framework for custody plus (sections 181 and 137-138, 151, 154-155, 161, 181, 182(2), 188, 188 and linked provisions in sections 280-83 and schedules 10, 11, 196(l)(b), 204(4), 213(3)(b), 216(2)(a), 244(3)(b), 266, 280-283, 298, 300-301 and 26 and 27)—a sentence which allows an offender to serve both a 303(b)(iii) short custodial sentence and then be supervised in the community Schedule 3 (Paragraphs 1-5, 7-12, 14-21, afterwards. Resource constraints have meant that we have been 23-26, 29-32, 34(2)(b), (d), (f), (3),(4), 41, unable thus far to implement custody plus and there is no 42(b), 43, 44(3), 45-47, 48(2)(a)(ii), (b), prospect of doing so in the near future. However, we are keen to (3)(b)(ii)-(iv), 49(a), 50, 51(3), (4), (6), (7), explore options to support offenders released from short term (9)-(14), 52, 53, 54(2), (3)(d), (e), (5)(a)(i)(a), custody. There is already provision for resettlement for offenders (a)(ii), (b), 55(2), 56(2)(a), (3)-(5), 57(3)(a), (b)(ii), (c), 58, 60(2)-(6), (7)(a), (8), 61, 62, released after short custodial sentences, notably through the 64(2)(a), (3)(a), (4)(a), 66(2)(a), (3)(a), (b), Home Office’s drugs interventions programme partnership with (4), (5), (6)(b), (8), 67, 70-72, 73(2), (3)(a), prison teams, and other locally supported schemes. (4)(a), 74(6), 75(2), (4); Schedules 4; 10; 11; 25 (Paragraphs 1-28, 30-35, 52-53 and The majority of the unimplemented provisions contained within 55-105); Schedules 26; 27; 31; 32 the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 relate to the (Paragraphs 17, 27, 28, 33, 51, 53, 63, 68(2), appointment of a Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses. A 102(2)(b), (c), (3) and 123(3)) and recruitment campaign conducted in 2006 failed to identify a Schedule 36 (Paragraphs 2, 4, 7-9, 11-14, 16 suitable candidate for this role. Changes were made in the Coroners and 98) and Justice Act 2009 to re-shape the role of the Commissioner, Domestic Violence, Crime Sections 15, 48-53, 54(2)(c), (3)(c)-(d) and 57 reflecting developments in the provision of support and services and Victims Act 2004 to victims and witnesses since the 2004 legislation. The Coroners Schedules 8; 9 and 10 (Paragraphs 13, 15, 28 and Justice Act recently received Royal Assent on 12 November and 64) and we have now launched the recruitment for a Victims’ Police and Justice Act 2006 Schedule 14 (Paragraphs 7, 15, 36, 38 Commissioner for which the 2004 Act provisions as amended will and 41) be commenced. We intend to commence the provisions in early Corporate Manslaughter and Sections 2(1)(d) and 10 Corporate Homicide Act February and aim to make an appointment soon after. 2007 Section 10 of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Serious Crime Act 2007 Schedule 13 (Paragraph 7) Homicide Act 2007 provides for courts to impose a publicity Criminal Justice and Sections 9, 11(2)-(8), 19, 33(2), (4), (7), (8), order, requiring the organisation to publicise details of its conviction Immigration Act 2008 34(2), (4)(b), (10), 39, 46(2), 74 (in respect of and fine. As publicity orders are an entirely new disposal, the provisions of Shedule 16 listed below) commencement has been delayed until supporting guidelines are and 78 available for the courts. The Sentencing Guidelines Council published Schedule 4 (Paragraphs 3(3), (5), 25, 59(c), a consultation guideline on 27 October 2009 and a definitive 92(a) and (c)); Schedules 7; 9 (Paragraph 2); Schedule 16 (Paragraphs 1-5, 6 (other than guideline is likely to be ready early this year. 6(3)), 7-11 and 17); Schedule 26 The majority of the provisions in the Criminal Justice and (Paragraphs 1, 2(3), 50, 63, 70 and 83) and Schedule 27 (Paragraphs 13(1), 28 and 36) Immigration Act 2008 have been commenced but a few have not. For example, commencement of the offences of stirring up hatred on grounds of sexual orientation, contained within section 74 of and schedule 16 to this Act, has been delayed to ensure compliance with the e-commerce directive. This directive requires us to apply LEADER OF THE HOUSE the offence to domestically established electronic service providers when they provide their services in other European economic area states. The necessary legislative changes to give us the powers we Topical Debates (Subjects Proposed) need in this respect were made by section 143 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. That section came into force on Royal Assent. We will therefore proceed to implement the offence as soon as regulations are made to ensure that we meet the requirements of The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the directive. the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley): This list includes all requests and whether they have been submitted on A further example relates to section 39 of, and schedule 7 to, the floor of the House, by letter, e-mail or another the 2008 Act which introduce youth default orders which will enable a court to impose an unpaid work requirement on a young method. Weeks where there were no such requests are offender (of the age of 16 or 17), a curfew requirement or an not included. attendance centre requirement in lieu of an unpaid fine. These Week commencing 16 November 2009 provisions are yet to be implemented due to resource constraints. “Zimbabwe” (Business Questions) Week commencing 23 November 2009 Act Unimplemented Provision “Textile Industry” (Business Questions) Crime and Disorder Act 1998 Schedule 8 (Paragraphs 86 and 90) “British Policing” (Business Questions) Youth Justice and Criminal Schedules 2 (Paragraphs 1-2, 3(10)(b), 5 and Evidence Act 1999 15) and 4 (Paragraphs 1-3, 4(1) and (3), 21 Week commencing 30 November 2009 and 24) “Policing of Protests” (Letter) Criminal Justice and Court Sections 59 and 61 “Gaza” (Business Questions) Services Act 2000 “Zimbabwe” (Business Questions) 19WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

“Care Quality Commission” (Business Questions) Provisions) Order 2010. This order will continue in Week commencing 21 December 2009 force the temporary provisions regarding the appointment “Holocaust Memorial Day” (Letter) of police officers and police support staff for a further, Week commencing 4 January 2010 final year to 28 March 2011. “Food 2030” (Business Questions) A further one-year renewal will enable the Government “Met Office” (Business Questions) to reach their target of 30 per cent. Catholic representation Week commencing 11 January 2010 in PSNI by March 2011. This is in line with the commitment “Holocaust Memorial Day” (Letter) made in the St. Andrews agreement that the 50:50 “Haiti” (Business Questions) recruitment arrangements to the PSNI will lapse when “Sir Patrick Bateson Report on Dog Welfare and Crime” the Patten target for Catholic officers has been achieved. (Business Questions) It is our intention, if the 30 per cent. target is reached “Yemen”(Business Questions) before March 2011, to return to Parliament to lapse the Week commencing 18 January 2010 provisions. “Haiti” (Business Questions) Before deciding to renew the provisions, we have “Railway Industry” (Business Questions) considered carefully the responses we received to a full Week commencing 25 January 2010 12-week review of the effectiveness of the temporary “Secure, Co-ordinated, and Environmentally Friendly School provisions. This review formed part of the Secretary of Transport” (Letter) State’s statutory duty to have regard to progress made “The Radio Spectrum’s Effect on Radio Microphones”(Business towards ensuring that membership of the police and Questions) police support staff is representative of the community During this period there have been the following Topical in Northern Ireland, and to consult the Policing Board. Debates: The consultation ended on 22 January 2010. “Afghanistan” on 14 January 2010 Since the introduction of the temporary provisions in “Food Industry Competitiveness” on 21 January 2010 2001, Catholic composition has risen from 8.3 per cent. “Holocaust Memorial Day” on 28 January 2010 to 27.68 per cent.. This represents substantial progress towards a more representative police service. There is, however, still a short distance to go before the target of NORTHERN IRELAND 30 per cent. Catholic representation is achieved. For these reasons, and after looking carefully at the responses Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (Renewal Order) to the consultation, the Secretary of State has decided that the temporary provisions should be renewed for a The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul further year to 28 March 2011. Goggins): Today I am laying before Parliament the There will be an opportunity to debate the order in Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (Renewal of Temporary both Houses of Parliament.

323W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 324W Written Answers to SCOTLAND Departmental Information Officers Questions Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many staff in his Department have the status of Wednesday 3 February 2010 (a) embedded communicators and (b) are members of the Government Communications Network and are not listed in the Central Office of Information White Book. [315541] SOLICITOR-GENERAL Ann McKechin: No staff at the Scotland Office have Crown Prosecution Service: Victims the status of embedded communicators. No staff are members of the Government Communications Network and not listed in the COI White Book. Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Solicitor-General by what methods the Crown Prosecution Service has kept Departmental Manpower victims of crime informed of the progress of prosecutions since 2002. [315349] Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many layers of management The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service reporting from the most senior to the most junior there (CPS) introduced the initiative known as Direct are in his Department; how many officials are Communications with Victims in 2001. Under this initiative, employed in each such layer; and how much was spent victims are written to when key prosecution decisions on salaries and associated employment costs of staff at are taken. Senior CPS prosecutors also meet victims or each such layer in the latest year for which information their families in very serious cases to explain decisions. is available. [312831] Additionally the phased introduction of witness care units (WCU) across England and Wales during 2004-05 Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office does not employ has meant that CPS and police staff are able to provide any staff directly. All staff in the Office are seconded information and support to victims and other witnesses from other Government Departments, mainly the Scottish based on the individuals preferred means of contact. Executive and Ministry of Justice. Staffing information containing the grade and gender breakdown of all staff Dorneywood using the Scottish Executive’s grading structure, for illustrative purposes, is published in the Office’s annual Mr. Hurd: To ask the Solicitor-General with reference report. Under this grading structure, there are currently to the answer to the right hon. Member for Horsham of nine grades between the most senior and the most 19 June 2008, Official Report, column 1187W, on junior posts in the Scotland Office. The Office does not Dorneywood: official hospitality, what use the Attorney- keep information on salary and associated employment General’s Office has made of Dorneywood for official costs in the form requested. engagements in the last 12 months. [315465] Departmental Public Consultation The Solicitor-General: The Attorney-General’s Office has not used Dorneywood for any official engagements Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for during the last year. Scotland how many citizens’ juries or summits have been hosted by his Department since October 2008; on Victims: Prosecutions what date each event took place; and which Ministers were present at each event. [314529]

Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Solicitor-General with Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office has not arranged reference to the answer of 27 March 2009, Official any citizens’ juries or summits since October 2008. On Report, column 729W, on prosecutions, when she 31 October 2009 I attended a public consultative event expects the comprehensive review of resources available on the Bill of Rights and Responsibilities in Edinburgh to victim and witness care to report. [315348] arranged by the Ministry of Justice.

The Solicitor-General: The review referred to was Hotels intended to assess and inform the staffing of the joint police/CPS witness care units (WCU), and thereafter Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland the effective deployment of victim and witness care how many separate bookings for hotels graded at five resources. star or above were made through the Expotel booking The first strand of the review, in relation to the service by his Department in the latest year for which staffing of the WCU, has been completed, and CPS figures are available; and at what cost such bookings resources dedicated to these units have been maintained were made. [315544] for the financial year 2010-11. A further strand of the review will take place during 2010, to ensure full Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office does not separately consideration is given to the impact of the launch of the record information on the grade of hotel booked by National Victims Service. officials. 325W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 326W

All travel and subsistence is conducted in accordance Total annual performance reviews undertaken with the requirements of the Ministerial Code, Travel Number by Ministers and the Civil Service Management Code. 2004-05 52 All expenditure has been incurred in accordance with the principles of Managing Public Money and the 2005-06 57 Treasury handbook on Regularity and Propriety. 2006-07 57 2007-08 56 2008-09 59 Only a very small number of staff received WALES ’unsatisfactory’ markings during each of those five years. Therefore actual numbers cannot be provided without Children: Poverty compromising staff confidentiality. The award of an unsatisfactory performance marking invokes poor performance procedures, but would not Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for directly result in dismissal. Support is provided to employees Wales what recent discussions he has had with Welsh to reach and maintain the required standards of Assembly Government Ministers and ministerial performance. colleagues on steps to be taken to reduce levels of child poverty in Wales. [314567] Departmental Public Consultation

Mr. David: During recent bi-lateral meetings with Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Ministers at the Welsh Assembly Government I have how many citizens’ juries or summits have been hosted discussed the Child Poverty Bill. This Bill commits the by his Department since October 2008; on what date Government to eradicating child poverty by 2020 and each event took place; and which Ministers were present will enshrine in law an ambitious set of targets to at each event. [314531] achieve this goal. The Government are also taking action to assist Mr. Hain: None. children from low income families across the UK through the introduction of Child Trust Funds enabling families to save for their children’s future with additional funding for low income households. 64,000 children in Wales ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE will benefit from an additional Welsh premium. The Electoral Register: Expenditure Government have also ensured an increase in the child element of child tax credit benefiting an estimated 380,000 children and in child benefit, benefiting an Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South West estimated 640,000 children in Wales. Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission how much was spent on electoral The Welsh Assembly Government are further registration initiatives in each of the last 10 years. complementing these efforts through the introduction [315043] of legislation such as the proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure underpinning their commitment to Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me the target set for 2020. This recognises families in poverty that total expenditure on electoral registration initiatives often face multiple disadvantages requiring specialist in each of the last two years was as follows: and intensive support. The Welsh Assembly Government also has in place a range of policies aimed at tackling 2007-08: £6,461,000 child poverty including employment support programmes, 2008-09: £6,683,000 childcare initiatives, education and health programmes Initiatives included in these costs include guidance and Communities First interventions. for electoral administrators, activity relating to the performance standards framework for electoral registration Departmental Manpower officers, research, the Commission’s partnership grants programme and public awareness campaigns to promote voter registration. Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Equivalent information for earlier years could be for Wales how many performance reviews were undertaken provided only at disproportionate cost as expenditure in respect of staff of (a) his Department and (b) its was accounted for under more than one corporate agencies in each of the last five years; in how many objective. cases performance was rated as unsatisfactory or below; how many staff left as a direct result of such a rating; Local Government Finance and what percentage of full-time equivalent staff this represented. [313822] Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee Mr. Hain: Performance Management in the Wales on the Electoral Commission with reference to the Office is an ongoing process, with all staff undergoing answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 22 October annual and mid-year formal performance reviews. The 2009, Official Report, column 1645W,on local government total numbers of annual performance reviews carried finance, what data sets not contained in the national out in each of the last five years are set out in the indicator set local authorities are required to submit to following table. the Electoral Commission. [314955] 327W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 328W

Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Paul Goggins: The Organised Crime Task Force is that local authorities are not required to submit any committed to maximising the value of assets recovered data sets to the Commission. from criminals. Last year £7.3 million of criminal assets However the Commission further informs me that were recovered in Northern Ireland against a minimum Electoral Registration Officers and Returning Officers target of £6.2 million. employed by the local authority are each asked to complete a self assessment return against a performance Power Sharing standards framework and also complete a financial information survey at the end of the financial year. 13. Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Both the standards and the financial survey are available Northern Ireland what recent assessment he has made on the Commission’s website: of prospects for further power sharing in Northern www.electoralcommission.org.uk Ireland. [314150] Local Government: Suffolk Mr. Woodward: I refer the hon. Lady to the answer I Mr. Ruffley: To ask the hon. Member for South West gave earlier to the hon. Members for South Down Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on (Mr. McGrady) and Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper) and the Electoral Commission how much had been spent my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East, and on the Boundary Committee’s review of the Mexborough (Jeff Ennis). reorganisation of local government in Suffolk on the latest date for which figures are available. [314864] Departmental Billing

Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern that the amount spent on the structural review of Suffolk Ireland what estimate he has made of the average to date is £463,950. length of time taken by (a) his Department and (b) its agencies to pay invoices from (i) small and medium- sized enterprises and (ii) all creditors in the last NORTHERN IRELAND 12 months. [315136]

Criminal Justice and Policing: Devolution Paul Goggins: The following table shows the percentage of invoices that have been paid by the Northern Ireland 10. Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Office (NIO) within 10 working days during the nine Northern Ireland what recent assessment he has made month period to 31 December 2009. of progress in the devolution of criminal justice and policing to Northern Ireland; and if he will make a Percentage paid within statement. [314146] 10 working days

1 Mr. Woodward: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Core Department 92 answer I gave earlier to the hon. Members for South Down (Mr. McGrady) and Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper) Executive agencies: and my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, East and Northern Ireland Prison Service 92 Mexborough (Jeff Ennis). Compensation Agency 98 Prison Estate Forensic Science Northern Ireland 83 Youth Justice Agency 81 1 Including arm’s length bodies and the Public Prosecution Service 11. Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland but excluding Executive agencies and NDPBs Northern Ireland what his most recent assessment is of the adequacy of the prison estate in Northern Ireland. In line with guidance issued by Cabinet Office on [314147] 17 November 2008, the Department and agencies revised internal timescales for the processing and payment of Paul Goggins: I announced in December 2007 that invoices with effect from 1 December 2008. Since then, 400 additional adult male places would be made available there has been a steady improvement in the NIO’s by the end of 2010. 230 of these are now operational statistics. and 140 under tender for construction. In addition The Government policy of paying within 10 working further accommodation is being refurbished and brought days applies to invoices from all suppliers irrespective of back into use at Maghaberry. A detailed business case size—no distinction is made for small or medium-sized and design for the replacement prison at Magilligan is enterprises and separate statistics relating to these groups under way. An options appraisal for a discrete women’s are not recorded. facility has been prepared. Final decisions must take account of funding availability. Departmental Mobile Phones Organised Crime Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for 12. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many (a) mobile telephones Northern Ireland what steps he plans to take to reduce and (b) BlackBerrys have been provided to (i) the financial assets of organised criminal gangs in Ministers and (ii) special advisers in his Department in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement. (A) 2008-09 and (B) 2009-10 to date; and at what cost [314148] to the public purse. [313172] 329W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 330W

Paul Goggins: A BlackBerry was provided for the £ Secretary of State in February 2009 at a cost of £212 plus 15 per cent. VAT. (a) Rent 1,610,000 No other mobiles or BlackBerries were purchased for (b) Refurbishment 3,239,000 Ministers or special advisers in 2008-09 or 2009-10. (c) Business rates 117,000 (d) Utilities 29,000 Departmental Public Consultation

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many citizens’ juries or summits LEADER OF THE HOUSE have been hosted by his Department since October 2008; on what date each event took place; and which Topical Debates Ministers were present at each event. [314530] Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Leader of the House how Paul Goggins: The Northern Ireland Office (NIO) many applications have been received each week asking has not hosted any citizens’ juries or summits since for subjects to be debated in topical debates since their October 2008. inception; and what the 10 most popular subjects proposed for debate have been since procedures for State Visits: Republic of Ireland such debates were instituted. [314676]

Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Barbara Keeley: I have today issued a written ministerial for Northern Ireland for what reasons the President of statement outlining proposed subjects for topical debate the Irish Republic was invited to the Police Training between 18 November 2009 and 31 January 2010. College on 28 January 2010; and who invited her. Following a review of topical debate procedure in [315358] October 2007, the Office of the Leader of the House of Commons has issued regular written ministerial statements Paul Goggins: That is an operational matter for the setting out this information. These can be found in the Chief Constable. I have asked him to reply directly to Official Report: the hon. Member, and a copy of his letter will be placed 7 February 2008, Official Report, column 83WS in the Library of the House. 24 April 2008, Official Report, column 110WS 14 July 2008, Official Report, column 7WS 25 November 2008, Official Report, column 79WS 12 February 2009 Official Report, column 108WS HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION 3 June 2009, Official Report, column 14WS 3 December 2009, Official Report, column 135WS. 14 Tothill Street

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the hon. Member for North Devon, representing the House of Commons ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Commission what expenditure the House of Commons Commission has incurred on (a) rent, (b) refurbishment, Salmon: Merseyside (c) business rates and (d) utility provision in respect of 14 Tothill Street in the last 12 months. [315095] Ben Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Nick Harvey: The Commons share of expenditure for he has made of the size of the salmon population in (a) 14 Tothill Street for the 12 months to 31 December 2009 the River Mersey and (b) all rivers in the Merseyside was: region, (i) on the latest date for which information is available and (ii) (A) two, (B) five, (C) 10 and (D) 15 £ years ago. [314466] (a) Rent 2,400,000 (b) Refurbishment 1,300,000 Huw Irranca-Davies: The current assessment of the (c) Business rates 175,000 salmon population size in the Mersey catchment covers (d) Utilities 28,000 two elements of the fish’s life cycle: 1. Numbers of adult fish entering the Mersey Catchment. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the hon. Member for 2. Numbers of juvenile salmon in the Rivers Goyt and Bollin. North Devon, representing the House of Commons No distinction is made between (a) River Mersey Commission what contribution the House of Lords has and (b) All Rivers in the Merseyside region when made to the Commission towards the cost of (a) rent, assessing adult salmon. All monitoring of adult numbers (b) refurbishment, (c) business rates and (d) utilities is carried out at the Woolston Weir Fish Pass and Trap in respect of 14 Tothill Street in the last 12 months. in Warrington. [315248] The Woolston fish pass was adapted to trap fish in 2001, shortly after evidence was collated to confirm the Nick Harvey: The House of Lords made the following arrival of adult salmon in the river. It has since been run contributions for the year ended 31 December 2009: in the autumn of each year. 331W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 332W

Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. Number of adult Number of days fish salmon trap is operated The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority 2001 3 18 to reply. 2002 26 48 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 29 January 2010: 2003 1 6 2004 1— 1— As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question 2005 42 10 concerning what information the department collates on the (a) 2006 8 21 number of businesses in and (b) annual revenue of the independent 2007 35 41 hand car wash sector (312694). 2008 45 20 The ONS does not collect information specifically relating to 2009 3 4 the independent car wash sector. This industry is subsumed 1 Shut for health and safety modification within a larger industrial classification, which is ’Maintenance The number of days spent trapping varies from year and repair of motor vehicles’ and estimates of the number of businesses and their revenue can only be produced for the aggregate. to year and is dependent upon the amount of resource available. Copyright: Recordings Video technology is currently being developed for the trap to enable the remote counting of adult salmon all Peter Bottomley: To ask the Minister of State, year round. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills whether Juvenile salmon distribution is currently monitored he plans to bring forward legislation to clarify the on the River Goyt by electric fishing for young fish and lawfulness of copying for personal use a recording the the counting of adult redds (nests). Since young salmon copier purchased; and if he will make a statement. were discovered on the River Goyt in 2001, they have [314151] been counted in small numbers every year on the river. Mr. Lammy: The law in this area is clear: it does not Number of juvenile Number of surveys permit the copying for personal use of a recording the salmon in the lower Goyt copier has purchased, without permission of the copyright 2005 4 4 holder. For example, tracks purchased online are often accompanied by licences permitting consumers to make 2006 6 8 a limited number of copies for their own use, but many 2007 4 5 CDs have “all rights reserved”. 2008 0 1 2009 1 6 The Government carefully considered this issue in their Copyright Strategy, “© the way ahead”, and the Juvenile salmon surveys will start on the River Bollin second stage consultation on copyright exceptions arising in 2010. This river has now been opened up to adults by from the Gowers Review of Intellectual Property. We the building of two new fish passes, developed as part of concluded that a UK-only approach will be unable to the Environment Agency Mersey Life project. deliver the correct balance between the access that consumers desire and the appropriate remuneration that rights holders need. EU-wide consideration is required, BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS which we would support. Broadband Departmental Visits Abroad

Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, for Business, Innovation and Skills how many UK Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what households do not have access to broadband internet expenditure his Department incurred on representation services. [315026] at official level at overseas events in each of the last five years. [314273] Mr. Timms: Ofcom’s Communications Market Report: English Regions (Published August 2009) reported that Mr. McFadden: The Department does not centrally about 4,200 UK households were not connected to a record details of representation at official level at overseas broadband enabled exchange at the end of 2008. The events. The Department holds information on overseas report can be found at: travel at the aggregate level but does not specifically http://www.ofcom.org.uk/research/cm/cmrnr09/england/ relate these costs to events abroad, to obtain this information nrcmreng.pdf would entail disproportionate cost. For some 11 per cent. of households connected to a The Department publishes details of senior staff on broadband enabled exchange, line lengths or other technical the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills issue mean that the speed delivered to the customer is website at: less than 2 Mbits. http://www.bis.gov.uk/about/board/expenses Business Overseas conferences attended are included.

Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Minister of State, Department Employment: Females for Business, Innovation and Skills what information his Department collates on the (a) number of Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Minister of State, businesses in and (b) annual revenue of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what independent hand car wash sector. [312694] estimate he has made of the proportion of women who 333W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 334W work (a) between one and five, (b) between six and 10, Mr. Lammy [holding answer 1 February 2010]: The (c) between 11 and 15, (d) between 16 and 20, (e) information is in the following table. between 21 and 25, (f) between 25 and 30, (g) between Applicants to full-time undergraduate courses via UCAS from West 31 and 35 and (h) over 35 hours a week in each year Chelmsford constituency and Chelmsford local authority area 2005-06 since 1997. [313558] to 2007-08 Year of entry Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. 2005 2006 2007 The information requested falls within the responsibility West Chelmsford of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority constituency to reply. Applicants 874 915 984 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 28 January 2010: Of which: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Obtained a place 753 786 834 have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Unplaced 121 129 150 what estimate has been made of the proportion of women who work (a) between one and five, (b) between six and 10, (c) between Chelmsford local 11 and 15, (d) between 16 and 20, (e) between 21 and 25, (f) authority between 25 and 30, (g) between 31 and 35 and (h) over 35 hours a Applicants 1,372 1,402 1,517 week in each year since 1997. (313558) Of which: The table provided shows the usual weekly hours worked by women as published in the monthly Labour Market Statistical Obtained a place 1,190 1,195 1,287 Bulletin, accessible via the link below. Estimates for the more Unplaced 182 207 230 detailed categories requested are not available on a basis consistent with those published. Insolvency http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=1944 As with any sample survey, estimates from the Labour Force Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister of State, Department Survey (LFS) are subject to a margin of uncertainty. Indications for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he of the sampling variability of LFS aggregate estimates are provided has made of the effectiveness of creditors’ committees in the Statistical Bulletin. in scrutinising insolvency practitioners. [315192] Usual weekly hours of work1 for women in employment: Three month periods ending November, 1997 to2009—United Kingdom, seasonally Ian Lucas: Creditors have a financial interest in the adjusted outcome of insolvency proceedings and are therefore Percentage well placed to monitor the actions of insolvency Less practitioners. Ultimately insolvency practitioners are than 6upto 16 up to 31 up to Over 45 subject to the control of the court. 6hours 15 hours 30 hours 45 hours hours The OFT is currently undertaking a study into various 1997 3.1 13.9 27.3 45.3 10.4 aspects of the corporate insolvency market. 1998 3.0 14.1 27.2 45.6 10.1 1999 3.0 13.2 27.7 45.8 10.2 Manufacturing Industries: Government Assistance 2000 2.7 13.1 28.7 45.4 10.1 2001 2.5 12.4 28.9 46.3 9.9 Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2002 2.5 12.0 29.1 46.1 10.2 for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his 2003 2.5 12.2 29.6 46.0 9.7 Department is taking to provide financial support for 2004 2.3 11.9 29.6 46.7 9.6 manufacturing industry. [315436] 2005 2.2 11.2 29.6 47.6 9.5 2006 2.5 11.4 29.6 46.8 9.7 Ian Lucas: The manufacturing strategy launched in 2007 2.2 11.4 29.3 47.5 9.7 September 2008 brings together over £150 million support 2008 2.3 10.7 30.1 47.3 9.7 for a range of policy measures that address key issues 2009 2.3 11.0 30.8 46.3 9.6 impacting on competitiveness such as skills, design, 1 Main job only including paid and unpaid overtime. technology, global value chains and the move to a low Note: carbon economy. It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most The advanced manufacturing package of measures types of communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels, mobile home sites etc.) announced in July 2009 provides more than £150 million Source: from the strategic investment fund to support the Labour Force Survey development of high tech manufacturing that will enable UK manufacturers to take advantage of new market opportunities. Higher Education: Chelmsford In addition, manufacturing benefits from: The Real Help for Business package—support for manufacturers Mr. Burns: To ask the Minister of State, Department is described in the leaflet which is available at: for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file53764.pdf answer of 26 January 2010, Official Report, 848-9W, on The Vehicle Scrappage Scheme where more than 330,000 orders higher education: Chelmsford, how many applicants for new vehicles have been placed. from (a) West Chelmsford constituency and (b) The Manufacturing Advisory Service which has been expanded Chelmsford local authority area did not get a place at and has conducted over 32,000 manufacturing reviews and university in (i) 2005-06, (ii) 2006-07 and (iii) 2007-08. supported more than 11,800 implementation projects worth [314497] nearly £700 million value added. 335W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 336W

Museums and Galleries: Finance Decisions relating to operational matters are the direct responsibility of the company and local assessments Mr. Vaizey: To ask the Minister of State, Department were made on whether services could operate safely for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what recent under local conditions. Royal Mail kept customers informed representations he has received on the Higher Education of disrupted services via its website: Funding Council for England’s review of funding for its www.royalmail.com Museums, Galleries and Collections Fund; and when but due to the nature of the changing conditions, he expects the review to be published; [308095] assessments had to be regularly made and it was not (2) how much funding the Higher Education Funding always possible to give customers advanced notice of Council for England has allocated to museums and whether local services will be operating as normal. galleries in each of the last five years, expressed in Postcomm, the independent postal regulator, is 2009-10 prices. [308096] responsible for monitoring Royal Mail’s performance in relation to the universal service obligation. The regulator Mr. Lammy [holding answer 6 January 2010]: The receives regular compliance reports from Royal Mail Higher Education Museum, Galleries and Collections regarding its quality of service and will where appropriate Fund recognises the importance of these nationally raise any reasonable concerns with the company over valued institutions. I am pleased that the resources we any significant interruption to local services due to the have allocated to the Higher Education Funding Council severe weather conditions. for England (HEFCE) mean that they are planning not The Government would like to thank postmen and only to continue this funding stream, but also to increase women up and down the country for their efforts to it to £10.6 million in 2010/11. deliver the mail in the face of the extreme weather However, it is important that all special funding conditions recently experienced in the UK. streams are reviewed periodically. This ensures that public funds continue to be spent wisely. The Museums Train to Gain Programme Fund is currently under review by a panel appointed by the Funding Council. The review will make broad recommendations about the fund’s future. The HEFCE Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister of State, Board will make detailed funding decisions for individual Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how institutions based on these recommendations. I understand much his Department has spent on skills brokers under that those decisions are expected to be made before the the Train to Gain programme in each of the last three summer, after which the review report will be published. years. [314781] The Department has received correspondence from Kevin Brennan: The expenditure for each of the three Oxford university and the university of Central Lancashire years is set out in the following table. on this subject. The total allocation in each year is as follows: £ million University Museums and Galleries Funding 2006-07 28 £ million 2007-08 39 2005/06 10.8 2008-09 45 2006/07 9.9 2007/08 0.2 Video Games: Finance 2008/09 10.2 2009/10 10.1 Philip Davies: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2010/11 10.6 for Business, Innovation and Skills how much financial Note: The figures show levels of the Higher Education Museum, Galleries assistance was given by regional development agencies and Collections Fund over the past five years in cash terms. In to the video games industry in 2008-09. [312993] 2005/06 the fund was administered by the Arts and Humanities Research Council (AHRC). The figure for 2005/06 shows both core Ms Rosie Winterton: The following table shows how and project funding from the AHRC and is not comparable to that for much has been invested by each RDA in projects specifically subsequent years. aimed at the video game industry. Royal Mail: Snow and Ice RDA financial assistance to the video RDA games industry in 2008-09 (£000)1 Ben Chapman: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what AWM 729 discussions he has had with Royal Mail on its service to EEDA 288 customers in areas which did not receive mail deliveries EMDA 0 during the recent adverse weather conditions; what (a) LDA 250 information and (b) consultation Royal Mail held with NWDA 135 such customers; and what assessment has been made of ONE 931 whether the universal service obligation was complied SEEDA 58 with during the period of adverse weather conditions. SWERDA 0 [314467] YF 195 1 To identify the financial assistance that has been provided from Mr. McFadden: Department officials were in contact broader programmes (e.g. business support) would incur disproportionate with Royal Mail during the severe weather. cost. 337W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 338W

DEFENCE Incidents of reported AWOL for each month of 2009 Royal Air Royal Navy Army Force

Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations January 5 — 1 February 10 — 0 Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence March 10 — 0 what the monetary value of cash allowances awarded to April 5 — 0 military staff in Afghanistan was in 2008-09. [314182] May 10 — 0 June 10 — 0 Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The monetary value of cash July 10 — 0 allowances awarded to military staff in Afghanistan in August 5 — 1 2008-09 was £30.6 million on local overseas allowance September 10 — 0 and longer separation allowance. These allowances October 10 — 1 contribute towards the necessary additional local cost November 5 — 3 of day-to-day living of those serving overseas and December 0 — 0 compensate personnel who are experiencing longer than Total 85 12,110 6 usual separation from their families. 1 This is the number of recorded incidences, not the number of people AWOL or the number of charges brought. A further £66.5 million was awarded for the operational Note: allowance in Iraq and Afghanistan, of which approximately Figures for the Royal Navy and Army are rounded to the nearest five. £40 million was in Afghanistan. This allowance recognises the increased danger involved in serving in specified Departmental Billing operational locations, over and above that which is taken into account in basic pay. Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence The allowances were funded from the reserve as a net what estimate he has made of the average length of additional cost of military operations. time taken by (a) his Department and (b) its agencies to pay invoices from (i) small and medium-sized enterprises and (ii) all creditors in the last 12 months. Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for [315130] Defence pursuant to the answer of 25 January 2010, Official Report, column 516W, on Afghanistan, to how Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Ministry of Defence, its many of his Department’s civilian staff based in agencies and trading funds are fully committed to achieving Afghanistan in 2008-09 the total was paid. [314375] the Government target of paying 90 per cent. of invoices within 10 days, and is a signatory to the Prompt Payment Mr. Bob Ainsworth: In financial year 2008-09, operational Code. allowances were paid to 104 MOD civilian personnel Since March 2009, we have consistently exceeded the based in Afghanistan. target, and the latest figures show that 98.74 per cent. of invoices submitted by all suppliers were paid within 10 days of receipt. But we are not complacent and Armed Forces: Absence without Leave continue to seek improvements in our bill-paying performance to ensure that all our suppliers are paid Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence promptly. how many service personnel were absent without leave We have made no separate assessment of the time in each month in 2009. [314478] taken to pay small and medium-sized enterprises.

Mr. Kevan Jones: The information is not held centrally Departmental Public Relations in the format requested. Centrally held information relates to the number of absent without leave incidents Mr. Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for and not to the number of personnel. Additionally, data Defence how much his Department (a) allocated for are only available by month in respect of the Royal and (b) spent on public relations activities in each year Navy and Royal Air Force. In respect of the Army, only since 2001; how much was spent on external the year to date total is held centrally and to obtain this consultants in each such year; what companies were information by month will require a manual search of contracted to provide such services in each such year; records which could be provided only at disproportionate and how much he plans to spend on such activities in cost. The available figures are provided in the following 2010. [315032] table. Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The setting of detailed budgetary AWOL statistics are recorded by the number of incidences allocations is delegated to local budget holders. These reported, because the figures may include service personnel allocations are revised constantly throughout the financial who have been AWOL on more than one occasion. year to reflect changes in the Department’s priorities. Furthermore, following the reporting of an incidence of They are not therefore held centrally and could be AWOL, information may later come to light of extenuating provided only at disproportionate cost. circumstances for that unauthorised absence, such as compassionate, hospitalisation or travel delays beyond However, information on the final budget where this the individual’s control. In such cases a service person is available is set out in the following table. may not be formally charged but the incidence is still Expenditure on public relations activities (mainly recorded. recruitment for the armed forces) has been as follows: 339W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 340W

suffering. It is standard practice not to charge for such £ million assistance and consequently information on the costs of 2001-02 35.1 these operations is not held centrally and could only be 2002-03 52.5 provided at disproportionate cost. 2003-04 61.7 The Department provided assistance to several external 2004-05 79.3 organisations where lives were not in imminent danger. 2005-06 76.2 The cost of such assistance will be reimbursed by the 2006-07 43.0 external organisations involved and there will be no net 2007-08 46.3 cost to the Department. 2008-09 155.2 1 Of an allocated budget of £56.7 million A summary of the MOD’s expenditure on external CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT assistance has been placed annually in the Library of the House since 1995-96. The summary includes expenditure Departmental Travel information provided by our trading funds that lie outside the MOD’s accounting boundary. Budgetary Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for information is not held. External assistance includes Culture, Media and Sport if he will publish the travel management consultancy, specialist lawyers, commercial guidelines issued to staff of each of his Department’s bankers and IT expertise. Consultants help us to increase agency and non-departmental public bodies. [315144] our efficiency and effectiveness but we employ them only when we cannot do the work ourselves and can Mr. Simon: The Department does not hold any travel demonstrate value for money. guidelines issued by its agency or non-departmental public bodies. Any payment in relation to travel should A list of companies providing public relations services be made in accordance with Managing Public Money. or external assistance is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. However, we do Digital Broadcasting: Radio publish an annual list of those organisations the MOD pays £5 million or more to during the financial year. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for This information is in Chapter 1 (most recently in Table Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he 1.17) of UK Defence Statistics, copies of which have has had with local radio stations on the (a) financial been placed in the Library of the House. The current and (b) other effects on them of the digital switchover. and historical editions are also available on the MOD’s [314764] website at the following link: http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/ Mr. Simon: My Department has held two local radio index.php?page=66&pubType=1 summits with the commercial radio representative body This list includes those major contractors providing RadioCentre, to discuss the effects of the Digital Radio external assistance. Where public relations services are Switchover with small station owners. required, the MOD may also contract with companies included in the Public Relations Framework, a centralised Digital Broadcasting: Religious Buildings procurement service run by the Central Office of Information. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for We are reviewing the detail of final budgets for Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he 2009-10 pending the presentation of the Spring has had with representatives of places of worship on Supplementary Estimates to Parliament later this month. the effects on them of the digital switchover. [314763] Detailed budgetary information for 2010-11 is not Mr. Simon: I have had no recent discussions. yet available as we are reviewing our detailed resource allocations for that year to take account of current Football: World Cup priorities, commitments and budgetary pressures. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Snow and Ice Culture, Media and Sport how much his Department has spent on support for the Football Association’s Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence FIFA 2018 World cup bid. [315011] what estimate he has made of the costs to his Department arising from the severe weather conditions Mr. Sutcliffe: In addition to staff costs, the Department in the period 4 January to 18 January 2010; and if he is making a loan of £2.5 million to the Football Association will make a statement. [313585] in support of England’s bid to host the 2018 World cup. This money will be used for developing the technical Mr. Kevan Jones: It is not possible to assess the costs bid and not on entertaining or salaries. It will also be to the Department of the disruption to transport repaid into grass roots football if the bid is unsuccessful, arrangements and the consequent impact on the ability with the loan and a share of the profits from the of staff to attend for work during the period of the tournament going into the grass roots if successful. As recent bad weather. Costs such as the costs of structural a result, this represents good value for money for sport. damage to Defence facilities and infrastructure could only be provided at disproportionate cost. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Costs were incurred by the Department in providing Culture, Media and Sport how many officials of his military assistance to the civil community where there Department are working on the bid for the UK to host was an immediate threat to human life or to alleviate the 2018 World cup. [315012] 341W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 342W

Mr. Sutcliffe: Four of my officials are currently working Validated data for museums funded by Renaissance on the bid for England to host the 2018 World cup as is only available up to September 2009. Data for the part of their wider remit that involves all major sporting year will be available in March 2010. events. Public Holidays Licensing Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what estimate he has of the cost to his Media and Sport how much his Department and its Department of the introduction of an additional agencies spent on font licensing in the last three years. public holiday; and if he will make a statement. [315218] [315122]

Mr. Simon: My Department and its Agency have not Mr. Simon: The Department has made no such estimate. spent anything on font licensing in the last three years. Sports: Torbay Local Government Finance Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Culture, Media and Sport whether his Department has for Culture, Media and Sport with reference to the taken steps to encourage participation in sport in answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 22 October Torbay constituency in order to reduce levels of 2009, Official Report, column 1645W, on local obesity; and whether it has made funding available for government finance, what data sets not contained in this purpose in 2009-10. [315149] the national indicator set (a) municipal libraries and Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media (b) local authorities are required to submit to his and Sport is primarily focused on increasing sports Department and its agencies. [314956] participation, with Sport England as our key delivery partner. However, this is part of a joint target with the Mr. Simon: The Department for Culture, Media and Department of Health to get two million more people Sport has no statutory requirements for submission of more physically active, including one million more people datasets from local authorities. playing more sport. DCMS and Sport England work Local authorities that have signed up to the free very closely with the Department for Health across this swimming initiative are responsible for submitting quarterly target and sport will, of course, have a great positive data on the number of free swims that have taken place effect on people’s health. in their area each month as part of the ongoing monitoring As the non-departmental public body with responsibility and evaluation of the Free Swimming Programme. The for community sport, Sport England’s aim is to increase Department also collects details of alcohol, entertainment and sustain levels of participation in sport and develop and late night refreshment licensing from licensing talent to drive standards of elite performance throughout authorities on an annual basis. the country. Their funding is distributed as part of the The Department does not receive any datasets from commitment to get one million more people playing municipal libraries. more sport by 2012. Museums and Galleries National governing bodies of sport (NGBs) are at the heart of the strategy as it is their networks of community clubs, coaches and volunteers that make Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, sport happen. Sport England is investing £480 million Media and Sport what estimate he has made of the through 46 governing bodies over the next four years number of visitors to museums in (a) Lancashire, (b) and have agreed grow, sustain and excel targets with the North West and (c) England in 2009. [315028] each one. Each sport has developed a whole sport plan to achieve these targets. Margaret Hodge [holding answer February 2010]: My Department collects figures for visitor numbers for In addition to the current funding being invested museums we fund either through our grant in aid through NGBs, Sport England has invested a total of programme or through our Renaissance in the Regions £776,115 Exchequer funding into Torbay since 2002. programme. We have no figures for museums in Lancashire. This includes a recent investment of £634,615 into the Brixham Amateur Swimming and Life Saving Society Visits to museums in the North West and England in in order to modernise the pool. Swim Torquay Limited receipt of grant in aid or Renaissance funding are also received funding of £136,500 in 2008-09 to extend detailed in the table: their facilities. Sport England has further invested £317,771 of Lottery funding to various projects throughout Torbay Museums in receipt of funding through Renaissance since 2002-03. Areas that are funded in the regions January to Sponsored museums by DCMS September 2009 2009 Swimming: Concessions

North West total 11,465,046 23,300,000 visits Shona McIsaac: To ask the Secretary of State for England total 13,833,359 41,100,000 Culture, Media and Sport how many free swims (a) visits pensioners and (b) those under the age of 16 years 1 The museums included in the North West are: Manchester Art Gallery, Tullie resident in (i) North East Lincolnshire and (ii) North House Museum and Art Gallery, Manchester Museum, and Whitworth Art Lincolnshire local authority area have received in Gallery. 2 Imperial War Musem North, Museum Of Science and Industry, National each year since his Department’s free swimming Museums Liverpoool, Tate Liverpool programmes were introduced. [315235] 343W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 344W

Mr. Sutcliffe: The number of unique participants in (c) burglary and (d) vehicle thefts in Halton has been the Free Swimming programme is not collected centrally. between 2000 and the most recent date for which Local authorities are responsible for collecting data on figures are available. [313425] the number of free swims that have taken place in their area each month. Mr. Alan Campbell: The available information relates The table shows the total number of free swims that to the Halton Crime and Disorder Reduction Partnership have taken place under the free swimming scheme by area. Because of the introduction of the National Crime people aged 16 years and under and people aged 60 and Recording Standard in April 2002, data for 2000-01 and over in North East Lincolnshire local authority and 2008-09 are not directly comparable. Percentage changes North Lincolnshire local authority between April 2009, between 2002-03 and 2008-09 for the requested offences when the scheme began, and September 2009. have been given in the table. This is not a measure of the total number of individual participants taking part in free swimming, as the Percentage change in selected offences recorded by the police in Department does not hold these figures. Halton—2002-03 to 2008-09 Percentage change between Under 16 Over 60s 2002-03 and 2008-09 Local authority swims swims Total Total recorded crime -7 North East 0 20,938 20,938 Violence against the person 39 1 Lincolnshire Burglary -14 North 74,961 15,305 90,266 Vehicle thefts1 -37 Lincolnshire 1 Includes theft or from a vehicle. 1 NE Lincolnshire did not offer free swimming to under 16s. Television: Licensing Crimes of Violence: Convictions Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what recent representations Mr. Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for the he has received on the television licence fee. [314755] Home Department (1) how many people were convicted of serious violent crime offences in (a) Jarrow constituency, Mr. Simon: I regularly receive representations on the (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) England level of the licence fee. Multi-annual funding settlements in (i) 2007, (ii) 2008 and (iii) 2009; [313598] for the BBC help to guarantee the independence of the BBC and Government will continue to respect that (2) how many people were convicted of overall principle. violent crime offences in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) England Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State in (i) 2007, (ii) 2008 and (iii) 2009. [313600] for Culture, Media and Sport whether TV Licensing is authorised to undertake surveillance under the Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000; and what powers of entry it has. [314962] Information showing the number of persons found guilty at all courts in the North East Government Office Mr. Simon: The interpretation of the Regulation of Region (GOR) and England for offences of violence Investigatory Powers Act 2000 is a matter for TV Licensing. against the person, by offence, in 2007 and 2008 (latest available) is shown in the table. TV Licensing officers may enter a person’s home or business premises only with his or her consent or if Court proceedings data are not available at parliamentary authorised to do so by a warrant issued by a justice of constituency level. Data are given in the table for the the peace, a sheriff in Scotland, or a lay magistrate in North East GOR in which the Jarrow constituency and Northern Ireland. South Tyneside are located. Under section 366 of the Communications Act 2003, Data for 2009 are expected to be published in the in order to issue such a warrant the presiding judge autumn 2010. must be satisfied by information provided on oath, that there are reasonable grounds for believing that an offence Number of persons found guilty at all courts in the North East of not holding a licence while having installed or using Government Office Region1 and England for offences of violence a TV receiver has been or is being committed, that against the person, by offence, 2007 and 20082,3 evidence of the commission of the offence is likely to be 2007 2008 on the premises, and there is no other practicable way to North North lawfully gain entry to the premises. East East Violent offences Region England Region England

More serious offences— 225 3,236 202 3,217 indictable HOME DEPARTMENT Less serious offences— 2,707 35,873 2,578 35,842 Crime: Halton indictable Summary offences 2,885 49,931 2,676 49,620 Total indictable and 5,817 89,040 5,456 88,679 Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for the summary offences of Home Department what the percentage change in violence against the (a) overall recorded crime, (b) recorded violent crime, person 345W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 346W

1 Includes: Human Trafficking Cleveland police force area; Durham police force area; Northumbria police force area. Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 13 January principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant 2010, Official Report, columns 986-7W, on human has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence trafficking, what estimate he has had made of the is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence number of victims of trafficking for forced labour who selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is have not received accommodation and support since 1 the most severe. April 2009. [313657] 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these Mr. Alan Campbell: All victims of trafficking for data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care forced labour that have been identified since 1 April should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their 2009 have been provided with accommodation or support. inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Remand in Custody: Young People Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many hours young offenders DNA: Databases on remand aged under 18 years spent on education, training and personal development in each young offenders David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the institution serving as a remand centre in the latest Home Department pursuant to his contribution on period for which figures are available. [314582] Second Reading of the Crime and Security Bill, 18 January 2010, Official Report, column 35, from which document Mr. Coaker: I have been asked to reply. the facts were drawn on matches drawn from the national DNA database in 2008-09 for cases of rape and The YouthJustice Board reports the number of hours manslaughter from people who had been arrested but per week that young people spend undertaking education, not convicted of a serious crime. [313693] training and personal development activities across the secure estate. This is a broad category that includes Mr. Hanson [holding answer 27 January 2010]: These education provision delivered by learning providers statistics were provided by the National Policing commissioned by the Learning and Skills Council, as Improvement Agency based on their analysis of data well as interventions, group work sessions, vocational drawn from the Police National Computer by the ACPO training, and physical education classes delivered directly Criminal Records Office. by the Prison Service or institution. Firearms The YJB have introduced a new set of data items to allow them to monitor the secure estate. Data based on Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the a new and more robust set of indicators are presented Home Department how many handguns were held in here for STCs and SCHs for September 2009. Data England and Wales by virtue of firearm certificates in using the previous indicator are presented for YOIs. each year since 2004-05. [313779] This information is presented in the following tables. Alan Johnson: Available data relate to handguns and The Learning and Skills Council (LSC) reports that muzzle-loading handguns possessed on certificate for the average number of hours of OLASS funded learning 2004-05 and 2005-06, and are given in the table. Data and skills provision (not including personal development on certification are now drawn from the National Firearms activity) delivered per learner per week in the public Licensing Management System (NFLMS) and information sector YOIs in the academic year 1 August 2008 to in this degree of detail is not at present available. 31 July 2009 was 15.89 hours. Data are not broken down to show the number of Handguns and muzzle-loading handguns possessed on certificate: England and Wales, 2004-05 to 2007-08 hours spent on education, training and personal Muzzle-loading development by young people held on remand but the Handguns handguns information from the YJB and the LSC includes young people held on remand. 2004-051 16,016 7,911 2 The data supplied by the Youth Justice Board are 2005-06 16,399 8,728 drawn from administrative computer systems. As with 3 2006-07 n/a n/a any large scale recording system, the data are subject to 2007-084 n/a n/a possible errors with data entry and processing and may n/a denotes figures not available. be subject to change over time. 1 Information on the firearms breakdown was provided by 37 of the 43 police forces in England and Wales. The missing six forces are: September 2009 Cheshire, Gloucestershire, Hertfordshire, Staffordshire, Sussex and Average South Wales. number of 2 Information on the firearms breakdown was provided by 38 of the hours 43 police forces in England and Wales. The missing five forces are: Bedfordshire, Cheshire, Gloucestershire, Staffordshire and Sussex. Average hours of education, training and personal 25.6 3 Figures for 2006-07 are not available, due to the transition from development activity per week for young people at in-force data collection systems to the National Firearms Licensing Public youth offenders institutes (YOIs) Management System (NFLMS) in 2006. Average hours of education, training and personal 21.8 4 Figures for 2007/08 are not available, due to the transition from development activity per week for young people at in-force data collection systems to the National Firearms Licensing Private youth offenders institutes (YOIs) Management System (NFLMS) in 2006. 347W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 348W

September 2009 and serious youth violence as well as undertake enforcement Average operations to tackle this type of crime. Slough, as part number of of Berkshire East, has also received funding and support hours from the Home Office to tackle domestic and sexual Average hours of education received per young 23.5 violence. The BCU has received £95,000 to support person per week at SCHs Independent Domestic Violence Advisors and Multi- Average hours of education received per young 25.8 Agency Risk Assessment Conferences that support the person per week at STCs highest risk victims of domestic violence since 2007-8. Before 1997 there were no bespoke powers to tackle Slough antisocial behaviour but there are now a range of powers to deal with this issue. These include antisocial behaviour Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for orders and designated public places orders (DPPO) the Home Department if he will set out, with statistical from the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001. Since information related as directly as possible to the Slough 2005-06 at least 155 antisocial behaviour contracts have constituency, the effects on Slough of his Department’s been issued. Numbers of antisocial behaviour orders policies and actions since 2000. [311983] have not been published since 2006 and were previously published only at force level. Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office has introduced Slough has benefited from additional funding to a range of policies and initiatives since 2000. The available tackle antisocial behaviour and improve confidence in statistical information relates to the Slough borough. its community. In 2009 Slough began operating as a In terms of police recorded crime, data prior to Neighbourhood Crime and Justice pilot area. Key actions 2002-03 is not directly comparable because of the have included: introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard Producing a new set of ASB Service Standards. in April 2002. Between 2002-03 and 2008-09, total Overseeing 2226 hours of Community Payback in Slough recorded crime in Slough fell by 7 per cent. More during October 2009. specifically: Implementing Community Cashback (assets recovered from Violence against the person—up 47 per cent. criminals). On November 25 a £36,000 cheque from the LCJB Sexual offences—up 23 per cent. (Local Criminal Justice Board) was presented to the Britwell Youth Centre. Robbery—up 12 per cent. Raising awareness of the policing pledge and the rights the Burglary—down 41 per cent. public can expect from police when dealing with crime and Offences against vehicles—down 16 per cent. ASB. Other theft offences—no change. Setting up support for ASB victims and witnesses, ensuring Criminal damage—up 10 per cent. they are supported appropriately. Drug offences—up 45 per cent. Publishing all Slough borough council court successes in The Slough local police area together with the Royal Citizen every two months. borough of Windsor and Maidenhead and Bracknell Distributing newsletters for North, South and East Slough. Forest form Berkshire East Basic Command Unit (BCU). There are 80 CCTV cameras installed in the Town As at 31 March 2009 the BCU had 633 police officers. Hall, the Town Centre, Farnham Road and other smaller Comparisons with 2000 for Slough or Berkshire East shopping parades, together with some housing estates are not available. There were 90 police community and leisure sites and are linked to the council’s CCTV support officers as at 31 March 2009 in the Berkshire monitoring centre. CCTV also operate three mobile East BCU while there were none in existence in 2000. CCTV cameras, one of which has a built in digital The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 saw positive effects recorder which can be installed across the borough with the statutory duty to create a Crime and Disorder when required. Reduction Partnership (CDRP). The CDRP has brought Neighbourhood policing has been implemented new ways of working in a cross cutting way with the in Slough since April 2008. Slough borough council police, Council and other key stakeholders and genuine has allocated Community Safety Project Officers, partnership working to help tackle complex issues. Environmental Enforcement Officers and Community Since 2003 Slough has been funded by the Home Wardens to each of the three police neighbourhood Office as an ’intensive’ Drug Intervention Programme sectors (North, South and East Slough). This means (DIP) area enabling Slough to tackle drug-related offending both council and police are properly represented at through a range of’ intensive’ DIP applications including resident meetings, including Neighbourhood Policing drug-testing on arrest and Restriction on Bail provisions Neighbourhood Action Groups (there is one for each allowing more offenders to be targeted, steered into ward). treatment and out of a life of crime. Slough has received £250,000 funding and support as Slough’s DIP budget for 2009-10 is £866,958. The part of the Youth Crime Action Plan since 2008. This operation of DIP in Slough in 2008-09 saw over 1,500 has focused on the following activities: arrestees being drug-tested and 274 people referred into Using child protection legislation to remove young people drug treatment. from the streets at night and take them to a safe place, building Slough, as part of Thames Valley police force has on lessons from initiatives such as Operation Staysafe; been involved in the Tackling Knives Action Programme Using street-based teams of workers to tackle groups of young for the previous two years. This has provided additional people involved in crime and disorder funding and focus to work with young people and the Tackling antisocial behaviour and disorder at school closing community to prevent and educate about knife crime time by increasing after-school police patrols where needed. 349W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 350W

Placing youth offending team workers in police custody suites Information on stops and searches reported to the so that young offenders can be assessed and directed to appropriate Home Office does not include the ages of persons services at the earliest opportunity; searched. Making young offenders feel the consequences of their actions by expanding YOT reparation schemes during their leisure Telecommunications: Databases time, including on Friday and Saturday nights; Developing Family Intervention Projects to work with the most vulnerable and problematic families with children at risk Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home of offending, with non-negotiable elements and sanctions for a Department what his most recent estimate is of the cost failure to engage; of the Interception Modernisation Programme. [314772] Implementation of the ’think family’ reforms to provide an integrated and appropriate service response to all families at Mr. Hanson: The Government’s consultation paper risk by the end of the funding period. “Protecting the Public in a Changing Communications Slough has received additional funding through the Environment”, published in April 2009, outlined high-level Migration Impact Fund to support delivery of council initial estimates of the cost of the options considered as services being impacted by increased migration. They part of the Interception Modernisation Programme. have received £490,000 in 2009-10 to deliver three projects: These were in the range of up to £2 billion over a 10-year period. Supporting migrant children through dedicated programmes to assess newly-arrived families and supporting hard to reach groups. This also includes rationalising translation and interpreter services and tailored ESOL provision. Migrant’s Resource Centre focusing on health, education and WORK AND PENSIONS environmental health, by raising awareness of appropriate access and recruiting community advocates to work with services. Action for Employment Tailored ESOL provision in neighbourhoods on life skills, laws and customs. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Improving housing conditions in the privately rented sector Work and Pensions what percentage of people who housing a multi-agency programme to improve standards of have attended A4e meetings as part of programmes houses in multiple occupation. delivered under contract to her Department have found Social Security Benefits: Fraud work within six months since the inception of those contracts in (a) England and (b) Milton Keynes. David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for the [310775] Home Department how much was collected in fines for benefit fraud (a) in each region in England and (b) in Jim Knight: This information is not available in the format requested. Wales in each of the last two years. [314574] Action for Employment: Milton Keynes Bridget Prentice: I have been asked to reply. HMCS systems do not identify the value of fines Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for collected for specific offences and this information could Work and Pensions how many people who have attended be provided only at disproportionate cost. A4e meetings in Milton Keynes as part of programmes The total value of all financial penalties collected in delivered under contract to her Department have found each of the HMCS regions and Wales for the last two work within six months since the inception of those years is as follows: contracts. [310776]

£ Jim Knight: The information is not available in the 2007-08 2008-09 format requested. London 38,252,467 35,497,811 Midlands 49,334,655 47,945,264 Departmental Aviation North East 35,700,661 33,397,953 North West 35,906,704 34,972,432 Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for South East 52,314,591 52,209,726 Work and Pensions how many domestic flights within South West 28,259,819 27,053,693 Great Britain officials of her Department took in an Wales 16,348,762 15,442,822 official capacity in 2008-09; and at what cost to the public purse. [300972] Stop and Search Jim Knight: 25,860 domestic flights were taken by Department for Work and Pensions staff, of whom Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for there are some 111,000 throughout Great Britain, during the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 2008-09 at a total cost of £2.97 million. This has fallen 26 January 2010, Official Report, column 822W, on from £4 million in 2004-05. stop and search: Greater London, how many (a) searches and (b) subsequent actions taken in each year, All official travel within the Department is carried were carried out on people aged (i) under 10, (ii) under out in accordance with the requirements of both the 16 and (iii) between 17 and 25 years. [315003] Civil Service Management Code http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/documents/doc/ Alan Johnson: The information requested is not collected CSMC_April08.doc centrally. and departmental business travel policy. 351W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 352W

The Department’s business travel policy promotes Pensions Corporate sustainable travel and air travel is the least preferred and and method of travel. Departmental policy is that staff Jobcentre Disability Shared should always consider travelling by rail rather than air Grade Plus Centre Services Total and must take into account the full trip time (including Permanent 0011 travelling to and from the airport, checking time etc.), Secretary sustainability impact, business needs, convenience and Director 0178 cost when making this decision. General Director 11 6 40 57 Deputy 34 18 156 208 Departmental Cost Effectiveness Director Grade 6 135 60 378 573 Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Grade 7 341 113 1,006 1,460 and Pensions what efficiency savings projects (a) her Senior 1,092 326 1,199 2,617 Executive Department and (b) its agencies put in place under the Officer Operational Efficiency programme; on what date each Higher 4,083 691 2,275 7,049 such project was initiated; how much each such project Executive was expected to contribute to departmental savings; Officer how much had been saved through each such project Executive 29,580 5,106 3,340 38,026 on the latest date for which figures are available; and if Officer she will make a statement. [300944] Total 35,276 6,321 8,402 49,999

Jim Knight: The Department has been making It is not possible to split staff and associated costs substantial efficiencies in its back-office operations down further by grade as information is not readily throughout the last two Spending Review periods, and available at the level of detail requested, neither is this was used as an exemplar in the Budget 2009 Operational possible for associated costs of employment. The costs Efficiency programme (OEP) report. Hence, many of of providing such information would be disproportionate. the recommendations of the report were already underway in DWP prior to the report’s publication. Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many employees in (a) her Within the Department’s “business as usual” operating Department and (b) each of its agencies are in model are the following activities, all sanctioned by transition prior to being managed out; how long on OEP: average the transition window between notification and All new procurement is conducted collaboratively; exit has been in (i) her Department and (ii) each of its Driving value for money in all new IT contracts, under our agencies in each of the last five years; what estimate she future contracting strategy; has made of the salary costs of staff in transition in Proactively managing internal demand for IT resources; each such year; and what proportion of employees in transition were classed as being so for more than six Benchmarking of property and IT resources; and months in each year. [313232] Centralisation of back-office functions—with major savings through our shared services organisation, but smaller achievements Jim Knight: The Department for Work and Pensions also demonstrated in other corporate functions. has no staff in transition prior to being managed out. The Department will continue to report on its efficiency and value for money achievements in its departmental Departmental Publicity report and other publications. For example, we reported in our 2009 autumn performance report that we had delivered £581 million of efficiency savings during 2008-09 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State alone. for Work and Pensions how much her Department has spent on (a) ministerial photoshoots and (b) production of videos in which Ministers appear in the Departmental Manpower last three years for which figures are available. [305527] Jim Knight: Information on the use of external resources Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State to conduct (a) ministerial photoshoots and (b) production for Work and Pensions how many layers of of videos in which Ministers appear is detailed in the management reporting from the most senior to the following tables and is set out as total costs by financial most junior there are in her Department and each of its year and is exclusive of VAT. agencies; how many officials are employed in each such layer; and how much was spent on salaries and (a) Ministerial photoshoots associated employment costs of staff at each such layer £ in the latest year for which information is available. 2007 Nil [312829] 2008 906.82 2009 1,000.00 Jonathan Shaw: There are nine layers of management (b) Production of videos in which Ministers appear1 in the Department for Work and Pensions. The following £ table gives a headcount breakdown of the number of people in each management grade at 31 March 2009. 2007 97,977.96 353W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 354W

(b) Production of videos in which Ministers appear1 people back into work, including help with jobsearch £ techniques, basic skills and work-focussed training. 2008 16,100.00 There are also a series of measures in place to help 2009 2,621.50 jobseekers in the transition from benefits into work, 1 This also includes some reproduction and distribution costs where it whether that work is full or part time. has not been possible to separate them out. For example, jobseekers can also claim working tax These photos and videos were used to promote pension credits, which provide financial support to people who credit, local employment partnerships and integrated are working and on a low income. This support aims to employment and skills. boost work incentives by topping up the wages of The higher cost of video production in 2007 can people on lower pay, according to their family circumstances. mainly be attributed to the making of a film to promote This includes providing direct help with the cost of the benefits of local employment partnerships to employers. child care for working families. Filming was extensive and included interviews with a Jobseekers may also qualify for a Job Grant, a non- wide range of employers from across the country. taxable, discretionary, work related payment which aims to bridge the gap between a customer’s final payment of Departmental Telephone Services benefit and first receipt of wages. To qualify for this, a customer must have been in receipt of a qualifying Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Work benefit for 26 weeks immediately prior to starting work and Pensions what the average cost was of calls made of at least 16 hours per week. Awards are £100 for single to her Department’s 0845 telephone number from (a) customers or couples without children and £250 for land lines and (b) mobile telephone networks in the lone parents or couples with children. latest period for which figures are available; and if she In addition, jobseekers can have their housing benefit will make a statement. [312889] extended to cover the first four weeks they are in work, providing they have previously been in receipt of jobseeker’s Jim Knight: It is not possible to give an average cost allowance or other income related benefits for at least of a call to the Department’s 0845 numbers. 26 weeks immediately before entering work. A similar The cost of calls to the Departments 0845 numbers scheme, with similar rules, exists to support homeowners will vary according to each service provider, who will back into employment. The Mortgage Interest Run-On determine their own costs. BT landlines charge the provides an additional four weeks’ payment of mortgage lowest tariff and 70 per cent. of DWP callers do so from interest costs after a customer enters work. a BT landline. BT provide free 0845 calls if the call is We know that the vast majority of people are better made within the individual caller’s call plan. off in work. However, we understand that some jobseekers Cost of calls to 0845 numbers from mobile phones still find the transition into work difficult, and in the will vary according to which mobile operator a customer December White Paper “Building Britain’s Recovery: uses. Although we can identify if a caller is using a Achieving Full Employment”, the Government further mobile phone, the Department is unable to identify announced that we will introduce an enhanced Better which mobile operator a caller is using. off in Work Credit that will ensure that everyone who has been unemployed for 26 weeks or more will receive Disability Living Allowance: Appeals at least £40 a week more income on moving into work. The new credit will be introduced in one region from Patrick Hall: To ask the Secretary of State for Work October 2010 and we expect the credit will be available and Pensions what the average length of time was nationally from January 2011. between the submission of an appeal against the In addition, lone parents in receipt of jobseeker’s refusal of an application for disability living allowance allowance may be eligible for the In Work Credit which and the subsequent hearing in the latest period for is paid at £60 a week in London and £40 a week in other which figures are available. [314408] parts of the country. Customers who return to work from incapacity benefits may be eligible for the Return Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is not to Work Credit which is paid at £40 a week. Both credits available. are available to these customers when they start work for 16 hours a week, with payments lasting for 52 weeks. Employment Schemes

Mr. Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Ethnic Minority Employment Task Force Pensions what steps she has taken to ensure that claimants of (a) unemployment benefit and (b) jobseeker’s allowance Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for are able to take up employment opportunities for Work and Pensions what the budget of the Ethnic (i) full-time work and (ii) work for under 30 hours per Minority Task Force was in each of the last five years. week. [313388] [313680]

Jim Knight: Jobseeker’s allowance was introduced in Jim Knight: This question falls under my responsibility, October 1996 and replaced unemployment benefit as as Chair of the Ethnic Minority Employment Task the benefit for unemployed people. Force. This Task Force does not have a specific budget Jobseeker’s allowance claimants must be available for and while Secretariat support is provided by the Department and actively seeking work as a condition of their benefit, for Work and Pensions, this is delivered by the Ethnic and Jobcentre Plus provides a wealth of support to help Minority Employment policy team. 355W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 356W

Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work for YourBenefit participants will not be required and Pensions how many people the Ethnic Minority to participate for more than 40 hours per week, and Task Force has helped into work in each sector of some for less than this, if for example they have caring employment since its formation. [313681] responsibilities or have a health condition. Participants will be able to take time off during the placement, and Jim Knight: This question falls under my responsibility, will be given all appropriate training to allow them to as Chair of the Ethnic Minority Employment Task make the most of their placement. Force. The Task Force’s aim is to close the ethnic In addition, all suppliers will have in place a complaints minority employment gap, and in pursuing this aim the mechanism through which customers will be able to Task Force seeks to influence cross Government policies, raise concerns about their work experience placement, so that issues and barriers which lead to the gap are and ultimately can contact Jobcentre Plus if they have identified and tackled. It does not deliver employment concerns over the support they are receiving. programmes directly. As such it is not possible to say how many people the Task Force itself has helped into Pension Credit: Overpayments work. Mr. Waterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Incapacity Benefit and Pensions for what reason her Department’s estimate of the proportion of pension credit benefit expenditure overpayments rose in each year since 2007; Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and what steps she plans to take to (a) improve levels and Pensions how many incapacity benefit claimants of accuracy in forecasting such over expenditure and there are in each (a) county, (b) metropolitan (b) reduce the number of overpayments of pension authority, (c) London borough and (d) unitary credit. [311022] authority in England. [314005] Angela Eagle: The proportion of Pension Credit benefit Jonathan Shaw: The information requested has been expenditure overpayments has fallen since 2006-07 from placed in the Library. 5.3 per cent to 5.1 per cent. The available information is provided in the following table. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people claimed incapacity Estimated Pension Credit overpayments since 2006-07 benefit in each year since 1997; and how many such Fraud and Error (%) claimants (a) reached retirement age and (b) died in 2006-07 5.3 each such year. [315052] 2007-08 5.1 2008-09 5.1 Jonathan Shaw: I refer the hon. Member to the Note: answer I gave to the hon. Member for Maidenhead Percentage figures refer to an estimate of the percentage of benefit (Mrs. May) on 5 January 2010, Official Report, column overpaid during the time period. 166W. The Department does not produce projections for the amount it expects to lose as a result of fraud and error. Jobseeker’s Allowance However, the Department does have a departmental strategic objective to reduce overpayments as a result of fraud, official error and customer error to 1.8 per cent. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for of total benefit expenditure by March 2011. Work and Pensions what the entitlement to employment rights will be of jobseeker’s allowance We have a comprehensive strategy to reduce fraud claimants participating in the work for your benefit and error across the benefits system, including initiatives pilots; and if she will make a statement. [313061] for pension credit. These include addressing the most common errors through staff training, strengthening Jim Knight [holding answer 25 January 2010]: Work the checks that are undertaken before claims are put for Your Benefit is a pilot programme primarily for into payment, and matching our pension credit data customers who have been unemployed for more than against data from other Government and external sources two years. The programme consists of a work experience to identify potential overpayments. placement and other training and support which will be Pensions tailored to the individual. The programme is designed to help participants gain skills and experience which will be of value to them as they move towards work. Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if she will estimate the cost to the The programme does not provide jobs. It provides Exchequer in (a) public sector pensions, (b) uprating unpaid work experience placements and participants the guaranteed minimum pension of private sector will continue to receive jobseeker’s allowance. Participants pensions and (c) other occupational pension costs of a are not employed, and there will be no contract of 2.5 per cent. increase in 2010-11 in (i) additional employment between host organisations and participants. pension, (ii) increments to basic pension, (iii) Safeguards will however, be in place to ensure that increments to additional pension, (iv) increments to Work for YourBenefit participants are properly treated. graduated retirement benefit, (v) increments to the Participants will have the right to work in a healthy and inheritable lump sum, (vi) contracted-out deduction safe working environment, and of course host organisations from additional pension in respect of pre-April 1988 and providers will have to comply with all relevant contracted-out earnings, (vii) contracted-out deduction legislation under the Disability Discrimination Act. from additional pension in respect of contracted-out 357W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 358W earnings from April 1988 to 1997, (viii) graduated including recruitment subsidies, work-focused training retirement benefit, (ix) increase of long term incapacity places, volunteering opportunities and support to become for age, (x) basic pension addition at age of 80 years, self-employed. (xi) increase of long-term incapacity for age and (xii) In addition, 18-24 year olds in Leeds West who have invalidity allowance (transitional) for state pension been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for six months or recipients. [308334] more have access to the new deal for young people, and customers aged 25 and over who have been unemployed Angela Eagle: The total cost to the Exchequer in (a) for 18 months continuously or for 18 out of the last public sector pensions, of uprating Additional Pension 21 months or more have access to the New Deal 25 Plus components by 2.5 per cent. is approximately £0.7 programme. billion in 2010-11. More detailed information is not The new flexible new deal and supporting interventions, available. which build on the success of the New Deal programmes, Parts (b) and (c) of this question do not result in will be introduced in Leeds West from April 2010. any costs to the Exchequer. The Government have also targeted significant new resource on young people in recognition of the particular Social Security Benefits: Payments challenges young people face during a recession. These measures are designed to prevent, wherever possible, Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work young people experiencing prolonged spells of and Pensions how many benefit payments were delayed unemployment early in their working lives. in each month of 2009; what the monetary value of On 29 July 2009, the Government launched a campaign such payments was in each such month; and for what called “Backing Young Britain”, calling on businesses, reasons a benefit payment may be delayed. [313095] charities and government bodies to create more opportunities for young people, such as internships, Jim Knight: Information on the number and value of work experience placements, links to mentors and delayed benefit payments is not available and could be apprenticeships. Almost 18,000 graduate internships provided only at disproportionate cost. have already become available across the UK and thousands more opportunities will follow early in 2010. Over 470 Delay in making a payment of benefit may be the organisations are supporting the campaign, with numbers result of any number of factors including, but not growing all the time. limited to, customers not providing necessary evidence, volumes of work, delays in the banking or postal system, Furthermore, on 25 January 2010, the Government and simple error or oversight. The Department and its launched the “Young Person’s Guarantee”, meaning all Executive agencies, Jobcentre Plus and the Pension, 18-24 year olds who have been claiming jobseeker’s Disability and Carers Service, are committed to providing allowance for six months are now guaranteed a job, the best possible customer service and do their utmost work placement or work-related skills training. to ensure that any delays caused by factors within their Leeds is already benefiting from successful future control are kept to a minimum. jobs fund bids from Leeds City council and Yorkshire and the Humber Regional Forum Ltd, which will create Unemployment: Leeds up to 734 jobs in the Leeds area. In addition, we are introducing access to a named personal adviser to all young people from day one of John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Work their claim. This will be available to all from April. and Pensions (1) what steps she has taken to reduce unemployment in Leeds West constituency amongst Unemployment: North Tyneside young people since 2001; and if she will make a statement; [306947] Mr. Byers: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (2) what steps she has taken to reduce levels of and Pensions how many people in North Tyneside long-term unemployment in Leeds West constituency whose occupation is registered as electrician or since 2001; and if she will make a statement. [306953] electrical fitter are receiving jobseeker’s allowance. [314501] Jim Knight: As part of the Government’s commitment to support people into work, £5 billion has been made Jim Knight [holding answer 1 February 2010]: As at available across the UK since November 2008 to offer December 2009, there were 40 people claiming jobseeker’s extra support to jobseekers to help them find work at all allowance in the North Tyneside parliamentary constituency stages of their claim. whose sought occupation was recorded as electrician or The Department has quadrupled the available funding electrical fitter. for the rapid response service, which provides advice Source: and support to customers facing redundancy. Also, we 100 per cent. count of claimants of unemployment-related benefits, launched an enhanced offer to all jobseekers at day one Jobcentre Plus computer systems. of their claim which includes targeted group sessions in jobsearch techniques, access to local employment Unemployment: Young People partnership vacancies and access to help with the costs of getting back to work through the adviser discretionary Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for fund. Work and Pensions what expenditure her Department At the six-month point in a claim, all jobseekers now has incurred on advertising the Backing Young Britain have access to a substantial package of extra support campaign in the last 12 months. [314275] 359W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 360W

Jonathan Shaw: Backing Young Britain is a cross- Mr. Ian Austin: I refer the hon. Member to the reply Government campaign targeted at business, public sector given to the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) organisations and the voluntary sector. It aims to encourage on 6 May 2009, Official Report, columns 240-41W, organisations of all sizes to provide more opportunities which dealt with the membership of the Working Group for young people aged 16-24. on Condition Information in the Home Buying and The advertising costs incurred to date in the last Selling Process. The Working Group met six times 12 months on Backing Young Britain are £98,000. between March and October 2009. The group has now submitted its final report to the Department and we are Work Capability Assessment: Complaints looking carefully at the recommendations.

Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Homelessness and Pensions how many complaints have been made to her Department on a work capability assessment since Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for the introduction of the employment and support Communities and Local Government what his allowance. [313320] Department’s most recent estimate is of the number of people in each region who are homeless but who are not Jonathan Shaw: Information on the number of included in local authority homelessness statistics; and complaints received by the Department specifically about if he will make a statement. [313859] the Work Capability Assessment element of Employment and Support Allowance is not available. Mr. Ian Austin: Beyond the information that CLG In the Quarter September 2009 to November 2009 collects and publishes on local housing authorities’ Atos Healthcare received a total of 702 complaints activities under homelessness legislation, the Department from Employment Support Allowance claimants who has figures on counts of people found sleeping rough. were referred for a medical assessment. Rough sleeping street count figures, collected from local authorities, are published at a local, regional and national Written Questions: Government Responses level. In 1998 there were estimated to be 1,850 rough sleepers in England. Since then good progress has been Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Work made in reducing the total number of rough sleepers to and Pensions when she plans to answer question 464 in street counts in 2009. The 2009 total street count 300567, on departmental pay, tabled on 18 November figures are shown in Table 1. 2009. [313140] Table 1: Total street counts, by region, 2009 Number Jim Knight: I replied to the hon. Member’s question on 20 January 2010, Official Report, column 353-54W. North East 5 Yorkshire and the Humber 34 East Midlands 29 East of England 6 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT London 15 Energy Performance Certificates South East 31 South West 265 West Midlands 34 Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he North West 45 has made of the number of commercial buildings (a) England 464 built, (b) rented and (c) sold without the required The Department also has data on Supporting People energy performance certificate in each local authority (SP) clients whose predominant need for housing related area since 1 October 2008; and how many penalties support was associated with homelessness when they have been issued in respect of each such area in that first accessed a SP service. There are three primary period. [314783] client group categories whose predominant need is associated with homelessness: ’Single homeless’, ’Rough John Healey: No information is collected centrally sleeper’ and ’Homeless families with support needs’. about the number of commercial buildings that are sold, rented out or constructed or the number of fixed Data are collected on primary ’client group’ categories penalty notices that are issued for failure to provide an every time a client accesses housing related support energy performance certificate (EPC) in such cases. It is services funded by the Supporting People programme. not therefore possible to say how many such buildings Figures for the number of clients accessing a SP service were sold, rented out or constructed without an EPC at any point in time are not available, but information during that period. by region on the number of clients in these client groups who accessed housing related support services during Home Information Packs the period 1st April 2008 to 31 March 2009 are available from the Centre for Housing Research at University of Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State St Andrew’s Supporting People client record website: for Communities and Local Government if he will list http://www.spclientrecord.org.uk/ the members of his Department’s working group on Data are collected on a client group every time they condition information in the home buying and selling enter a housing related support service, so it could be process; how many times the working group has met to that clients access different services over the course of a date; and what the timetable is for it to report. [314982] year and appear more than once in the Supporting 361W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 362W

People data. We are unable to say how many of these Housing: Construction clients may potentially be included in the information on local housing authorities’ activities under homelessness Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State legislation. for Communities and Local Government if he will place in the Library a copy of each substantive response Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for to his Department’s review into the development on Communities and Local Government how many garden land. [314970] complaints have been received by the local government ombudsman on the administration of services for those Mr. Ian Austin: 127 responses were received from (a) (b) who are intentionally homeless and sleeping local authorities to the review of evidence into development rough in each of the last three years. [314662] on garden land. A copy of each response was placed in the Library of the House on 19 January 2010. Mr. Ian Austin: The number of complaints involving aspects of intentional homelessness received by the local government ombudsman for the last three years is Housing: Parking as follows:

Complaints Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will 2006-07 9 commission research into the proportion of domestic 2007-08 12 garages used for (a) parking cars and (b) storage. 2008-09 7 [312883]

Data on the number of complaints received by the Mr. Ian Austin: Local authorities are encouraged by local government ombudsman on rough sleeping is not PPS 3 to consider their local circumstances when setting available. levels of parking for residential development, but it is not a matter for the Government what people choose to keep in their garages. Homes and Communities Agency and Tenant Services Authority: Loans Housing: Sales Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much (a) Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State the Homes and Communities Agency and (b) the Tenant for Communities and Local Government how many Services Authority paid in loans to employees in each of and what proportion of first-time buyers purchased a the last three years; and how many such loans were home at a price of under £250,000 in 2009. [314978] made. [315195] Mr. Ian Austin: Data are only available for January to John Healey: From 1 December 2008, the Homes and November 2009. In this period, the Council of Mortgage Communities Agency paid out 93 loans totalling Lenders estimates that there were 171,300 loans to first £180,429.03. The TSA paid out 68 loans the total of time buyers in the UK. Of these, CLG estimate that 90 which was £160,927. per cent. (154,000) were for properties purchased for As neither agency existed prior to 1 December 2008 £250,000 or less. no figures are available for the period before that time.

Local Government Finance Housing Corporation and English Partnerships: Redundancy Pay Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for non-Housing Revenue Account (a) debt and (b) Communities and Local Government which (a) board interest was paid by local authorities in each year since members and (b) directors employed by (i) the Housing 2000; and how much outstanding debt there was in Corporation and (ii) English Partnerships received payments each local authority on 31 December in each such year. due to the closure of the organisations following the [315352] coming into effect of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008; how much was paid; and how much each Barbara Follett: Information on non-Housing Revenue board member received. [315196] Account debt is not held centrally.

John Healey: In respect of the Housing Corporation, Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for no termination payments were made to any of the chief Communities and Local Government how much (a) executive, senior managements or board members. Neither revenue from business rates was redistributed to each were termination payments made to the board members local authority and (b) each local authority received in of English Partnerships. revenue support grant through the formula grant in Termination payments were made to the chief executive (i) 2007-08 and (ii) 2008-09; and what estimate he has and two directors of English Partnerships. These were made of such receipts by each local authority in (A) set out in its Financial Statements 2008-09. 2009-10 and (B) 2010-11. [315353] 363W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 364W

Barbara Follett: The amount of (a) redistributed Regional Planning and Development: South East business rates and (b) revenue support grant allocated to each authority for each of the years 2007-08, 2008-09, Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 2009-10 and 2010-11 is available from the departmental for Communities and Local Government with reference website. to the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of The allocations for 2007-08 can be found at: 16 October 2009, Official Report, column 1139W, on http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/0708/grants.xls regional planning and development: South East, what The allocations for 2008-09 can be found at: the status of the South East Regional Spatial Strategy (a) http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/0809/ is; and whether there are plans to revise the Strategy head0809s.xls and (b) undertake further environmental assessments. The allocations for 2009-10 can be found at: [315042] http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/0910/ Mr. Ian Austin: The South East Regional Spatial head0910.xls Strategy, published in May 2009, is part of the development The allocations for 2010-11 can be found at: plan under section 38 of the Planning and Compulsory http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1011/ Purchase Act 2004 with the exception of Policy H2(i) head1011.xls which was quashed by the High Court. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for There are a number of outstanding legal challenges Communities and Local Government how much to the specific elements of the South East Regional funding has been granted under the (a) Working Spatial Strategy which relate to the adequacy of the Neighbourhoods Fund, (b) Neighbourhood Renewal strategic environmental assessment that was undertaken Fund, (c) Deprived Area Fund, (d) Local Enterprise and we are currently in legal negotiations with those Growth Initiative, (e) New Deal for Communities, (f) who have challenged it. Pending the conclusion of these Neighbourhood Management Pathfinders, (g) New negotiations, we will consider the way forward including Communities Fund, (h) European Regional the strategic environmental assessment. Development Fund, (i) Inspiring Communities Grant, (j) Connecting Communities Programme, (k) Single Sleeping Rough: Ex-servicemen Regeneration Budget and (l) Land and Property Programme to each local authority in each year since Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000. [315354] Communities and Local Government what his most recent estimate is of the proportion of ex-service Barbara Follett: The data requested are not held personnel in the number of street homeless people in centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate England. [314024] cost Planning Permission Mr. Ian Austin: The annual headline figure for rough sleeping, based on local authority street counts, does Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for not include information such as whether a rough sleeper Communities and Local Government for what reasons is a former member of the armed forces. However, there his Department decided not to accept the recommendation is specific data for London provided under the Combined of respondees to the consultation on the Draft Regulations Homelessness and Information Network (CHAIN) on Infrastructure Planning (Decisions) 2010 that decision- recording system. makers should have regard to the pre-application Rough sleeping among ex-armed forces personnel consultation and the consultation report. [315091] has dropped and earlier surveys found that around a quarter had been in the armed services at some stage John Healey: The pre-application consultation report and in 2002 this figure was 14 per cent. Better must be submitted to the IPC as part of the application accommodation advice for those leaving the armed for an order granting development consent. Section forces and closer working between Government and the 37(3)(c) of the Planning Act 2008 refers. Therefore, the charitable sector, including provision of supported housing IPC will have the report before them when considering ventures, has helped reduce the numbers. As a result, in an application. 2008-09, for those rough sleepers in London contacted by services 5 per cent. of rough sleepers were ex-service Recreation Spaces personnel. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Urban Development Corporations for Communities and Local Government with reference to his Department’s report of 18 February 2008, on Trees in Towns II, what assessment he has Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State made of the average cost to his Department of planting for Communities and Local Government with reference a tree as part of a municipal tree planting programme; to his Department’s press release of 14 January 2010 on and whether his Department plans to commission urban development corporations, whether any changes follow-up research. [314976] are to be made to levels of regeneration funding as a consequence of the merger or closure of the Development Mr. Ian Austin: “Trees in Towns II” did not assess the Corporations; whether he expects any staff to be made cost of planting trees. The planting of trees is a matter redundant; and what estimate he has made of the gross for each local and highway authority. There are no monetary value of the savings from such changes. plans to commission follow-up research. [314993] 365W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 366W

Mr. Ian Austin: In consequence of the outcome of the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury Group and other Quinquennial Review no changes to funding in the Chancellor’s Departments are committed to seeking current or next financial year are being made, while year-on-year improvements in their environmental funding for subsequent years will be decided in the next performance. HM Treasury was the first central spending review. We do not expect the urban development Government Department to receive the Carbon Trust’s corporations to make any redundancies as a result of ‘Carbon Standard’ for all operations, including official the review. transport, in March 2009. HM Treasury has recently All three development corporations are already been rated the best performing department in Whitehall participating in the Government’s operational efficiency by the independent Sustainable Development Commission. programme, which could yield cumulative savings across In 2009 the Chancellor of the Exchequer asked each their operating costs of £8 million in the period to of his departments to consider what more they would 2013-14. Increased joint working, delivery and shared be able to do to achieve the minimum standards proposed services with partners in west Northamptonshire should by the 10:10 campaign, where possible aiming for a achieve additional cumulative savings of at least 10 per cent. reduction in carbon emissions in 2010. £1 million by 2013-14. Further savings will arise in due Details of performance against a range of environmental course from the transfer of Thurrock Thames Gateway indicators, including carbon emissions, are published Development Corporation to the HCA but it is too by the Treasury Group and other Chancellor’s departments early to estimate what these will be as it will depend in their annual reports. upon when, for example, operating systems can be harmonised. The Department of Energy and Climate Change also publishes progress against carbon reduction targets for Waste Management: Planning Permission all Government Departments on its website at: www.decc.gov.uk Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many planning applications for waste treatment plants have been granted Departmental Contracts in each of the last three months. [314368]

Mr. Ian Austin: The most recent statistics available Mr. Leech: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer are for the period July—September 2009. During this how many jobs formerly undertaken by staff of his time, waste planning authorities granted permission for Department have been outsourced to external 89 major and 128 minor waste applications. We do not companies in each of the last five years; and to which hold information on the number of permissions granted companies. [314633] on a month-by-month basis. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury has outsourced in total forty-two posts in the last five years. In 2005 TREASURY three were transferred to Logica CMG for provision of payroll services. In December 2009 thirty-nine posts Debts: Developing Countries were transferred to the Fujitsu Group, thirty-six of which had staff in post at the time. Lindsay Roy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with his G8 counterparts to discuss progress towards reducing the National Income debts of developing countries; and if he will make a statement. [315200] Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Timms: The Government have regular conversations what headline workplace-based gross value was added with their G8 partners on a range of subjects: including per head at current basic prices in each NUTS 1 region development. Good progress is being made to deliver in each year since 2005; and what the percentage debt relief to the world’s poorest countries through the change was from each year to the next. [313759] internationally agreed heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC) initiative and the multilateral debt relief initiative Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. (MDRI). 35 out of 40 eligible countries are now receiving The information requested falls within the responsibility debt relief worth $117 billion, freeing up resources for of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority poverty reduction. Of these, 28 have completed the to reply. HIPC initiative and received irrevocable debt cancellation, Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 28 January 2010: including Haiti, Central African Republic, Afghanistan, Republic of Congo and Burundi in the past year. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Departmental Carbon Emissions concerning headline workplace-based gross value added per head at current basic prices in each NUTS1 region in each year since 2005; and what the percentage change was from each year to the John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer next (313759). whether (a) his Department, (b) its agencies and (c) associated non-departmental public bodies plan to sign The latest year for which NUTS1 data are available is 2008. Headline gross value added (GVA) per head figures for each up to the 10:10 campaign for cutting carbon usage in NUTS1 region, calculated on a workplace basis are shown in 2010; and if he will publish the (i) criteria and annex A for the years 2005 to 2008. Data on GVA per head (ii) research upon which such a decision will be taken. percentage changes for each NUTS1 region can be found in [312112] annex B. 367W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 368W

Annex A: GVA per head Non-domestic Rates £ per head 2005 2006 2007 2008 Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the North East 14,200 14,851 15,460 15,887 Exchequer what types of property are on the National North West 15,596 16,245 16,967 17,555 Rating List for business rates; and what criteria are Yorkshire and the Humber 15,416 15,994 16,670 17,096 used in their designation. [315037] East Midlands 16,158 16,868 17,614 18,041 West Midlands 15,671 16,306 17,044 17,463 Ian Pearson: The Central Rating Lists contain network properties such as the gas networks and the water East of England 17,249 18,160 19,083 19,473 supply companies, these hereditaments cover large areas London 29,846 31,674 33,694 34,786 and numerous administrative boundaries. South East 19,475 20,360 21,248 21,688 South West 16,679 17,473 18,235 18,782 Under s.53 Local Government Finance Act 1988 the Wales 13,717 14,228 14,853 15,237 Secretary of State and National Assembly for Wales designate which persons and what types of their property Scotland 17,262 18,266 19,267 20,086 shall appear in the Central Lists. They will have regard Northern Ireland 14,547 15,200 15,854 16,188 to all relevant matters which may include the nature, use, size and geographical spread of the property when United Kingdom 18,537 19,495 20,430 21,147 considering whether to designate a person on the central United Kingdom less extra- 18,122 19,011 19,951 20,520 rating list. regio Source: Non-domestic Rates: Garages and Petrol Stations Table 1.1, Regional GVA, ONS, available on the National Statistics website at http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/ Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if NUTS1.xls he will direct the Chief Executive of the Valuation Annex B: Percentage changes in GVA per head Office Agency to meet representatives of the petrol Percentage retail industry to discuss the 2010 rating revaluation. 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 [313370]

North East 4.6 4.1 2.8 Ian Pearson: Senior officials of the Valuation Office North West 4.2 4.4 3.5 Agency have already held a number of meetings with Yorkshire and the Humber 3.7 4.2 2.6 representatives of the petrol retail industry to discuss East Midlands 4.4 4.4 2.4 the approach to the 2010 rating revaluation and the West Midlands 4.1 4.5 2.5 process of dialogue is continuing. East of England 5.3 5.1 2.0 London 6.1 6.4 3.2 Non-domestic Rates: Valuation South East 4.5 4.4 2.1 South West 4.8 4.4 3.0 Lorely Burt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Wales 3.7 4.4 2.6 how many hereditaments there are on the England Scotland 5.8 5.5 4.3 2010 rating list (a) in London with a rateable value Northern Ireland 4.5 4.3 2.1 below (i) £21,500, (ii) £36,000 and (iii) £43,000 and (b) outside London with a rateable value below (A) United Kingdom 5.2 4.8 3.5 £15,000, (B) £25,000 and (C) £30,000. [314208] United Kingdom less extra-regio 4.9 4.9 2.9 Source: Ian Pearson [holding answer 29 January 2010]: The Table 1.1, Regional GVA, ONS, available on the National Statistics following data are as at 2 November 2009 and extracted website at: from the information published by the Valuation Office http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/NUTS1.xls Agency on 18 December 2009.

Rateable value Rounded to hundreds National Insurance Contributions: Young People London Below £21,500 183,400 Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Between £21,500 and £35,999 31,900 how much national insurance was paid by 16 and Between £36,000 and £42,999 8,700 17 year-olds resident in Scotland between 6 April 2008 and 5 April 2009; and what percentage of national England (ex. London) insurance raised in Scotland this represents. [315044] Below £15,000 1,015,400 Between £15,000 and £24,999 149,400 Mr. Timms: The latest available national insurance Between £25,000 and £29,999 41,800 contribution data are for 2007-08. Employee and employer class 1 contributions for 16 and 17-year-olds in Scotland Northern Ireland between 6 April 2007 and 5 April 2008 are estimated to be around £5 million. estimates for class 2, 3 and 4 are Kate Hoey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer not available. if he will estimate the number of hours (a) he and (b) The total national insurance contributed by Scotland his predecessor spent in Northern Ireland on official is estimated to be around £7.7 billion. visits since 1997. [314559] 369W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 370W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers’ official duties Vehicles seized entail visits throughout the United Kingdom. 2007-08 844 PAYE 2006-07 1,199

Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the The following quantities of fuel were seized in Northern Exchequer what sources of individual income are Ireland, this covers all types of fuel therefore it is not possible to place a monetary value on the quantity of subject to withholding requirements. [315015] fuel seized: Mr. Timms: The following sources of income may be subject to withholding and the withheld amount may be Million litres claimed by an individual in their self-assessment tax 2008-09 1.09 return as an off-set against their tax bill. 2007-08 0.82 Investment income (interest from banks, building societies, 2006-07 0.84 unit trusts, securities etc. and dividends); Certain state benefits (state pension lump sums and incapacity Details of the numbers of arrests relating to these benefit); seizures is not available. The number of convictions in Occupational pensions and retirement annuities; Northern Ireland for all types of hydrocarbon oils offences are as follows : Some life insurance policy gains; Income from share schemes; Number Employment income (including some lump sums and compensation payments); 2008-09 10 Certain types of trading income, (including payments under 2007-08 3 the Construction Industry Scheme); 2006-07 4 Property income (in some circumstances); and Income from trusts, estates and income chargeable on settlers. David Simpson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what percentage of detections of fuel smuggling in Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the (a) Northern Ireland and (b) England and Wales were Exchequer with reference to page 9 of HM Revenue made by (i) the police and (ii) HM Revenue and Customs and Customs Resource Accounts 2008-09, HC (2008- in each of the last three years; [314538] 09) 464, for what reason 4.5 million Pay-As-You-Earn (2) how many vehicles in (a) Northern Ireland and (PAYE) cases will require clerical intervention under (b) England and Wales were found to be running on the National Insurance and PAYE Service’s new PAYE red diesel illegally in each of the last three years. system. [315016] [314573]

Mr. Timms: The National Insurance and PAYE Service Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Revenue and Customs brings together all of an individual’s PAYE details (HMRC) does not keep a central record of fuel smuggling (including employments, pensions and tax deducted) detections made by other agencies and therefore cannot into one single record and currently holds approximately estimate the percentage of detections made by the police. 44 million individual customer records. Clerical action is required by HM Revenue and Customs staff when The numbers of vehicles containing illicit fuels that expected details of pay and tax (from form P14) and/or were detected in the last three years HMRC are shown expenses and benefits (from form P11d) have not been in the following table: received by an employer or pension provider. Northern Ireland England and Wales

Smuggling: Fuel Oil 2006-07 1,190 2,683 2007-08 1,158 2,758 David Simpson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2008-09 485 3,117 how many vehicles were seized in Northern Ireland consequent on their use for cross-border fuel smuggling These figures include those vehicles found to be running in each of the last three years; what the monetary value illegally on red diesel, but HMRC does not maintain was of the fuel seized from those vehicles; how many any central record of detections solely of red diesel. arrests were made in connection with those seizures; and how many convictions there were as a result of Tax Allowances: Pensions those arrests. [314485] Peter Bottomley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The specific information as (1) whether he has made an estimate of the number of requested is not available. The following numbers of (a) public and (b) private sector employees likely to be vehicles were seized in Northern Ireland for all types of affected by the changes to tax relief on pension contributions hydrocarbon oil offences; however, it is not possible to to take effect in 2011; and whether he has made an identify the number of seizures related to cross-border assessment of the likely effects on the competitiveness smuggling: of UK businesses of the implementation of those proposals; [314045] Vehicles seized (2) whether he has made an assessment of the (a) 2008-09 482 number of people affected by the changes to tax relief on pension contributions to take effect in 2011 likely to 371W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 372W remain in company pension schemes and (b) likely VAT: Alcoholic Drinks effects on company pension provision of the implementation of those proposals; [314047] Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (3) what the marginal tax rate would be on the whether his Department has issued rebates of value pensions savings of those affected by the changes to tax added tax to supermarkets in relation to loss-leading relief on pension contributions to take effect in 2011; marketing promotions of alcohol products in the last [314048] five years. [312717] (4) whether his Department holds information for Mr. Timms [holding answer 25 January 2010]: HM benchmarking purposes on the tax arrangements of Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is responsible for the other countries in respect of company pension collection and management of value added tax. contributions. [314049] Supermarkets are subject to the same VAT rules as other businesses. They are required to account for VAT Mr. Timms: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the on payments received for their positive-rated sales, including consultation document ‘Implementing the restriction of alcohol products, and are able to recover VAT paid on pensions tax relief’ which was published on 9 December purchases for their business, including products for 2009 and which contains the information for which he re-sale. has asked. A copy of the consultation document can be found on the HMT website at: The VAT returns rendered to HMRC by supermarkets and other businesses do not distinguish payments or www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pbr09_consult_pensions.pdf recovery of VAT on alcohol products from those on Table 1 of the Impact Assessment in the document other sales. (Annex E) sets out the total number of people likely to be affected by the changes and likely to remain in VAT: Memorials company pension schemes. Bob Russell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if he will estimate the amount of value added tax on Taxation: Aviation memorials to children (a) levied in each of the last five financial years and (b) expected to be levied in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11; [314702] Norman Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment the Government made of using maximum (2) if he will make it his policy not to levy value take-off weight as a basis for the proposed per plane tax added tax on the purchase and erection of memorials which was rejected in November 2008. [313004] for children; and if he will make a statement. [314703] Mr. Timms: The information requested is not available, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government considered as HM Revenue and Customs does not collect data on the use of maximum take-off weight as part of the VAT collected from individual categories of goods and consultation to reform air passenger duty in January services. 2008, available at: Under our agreements with our European partners, http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/consult_aviation310108.pdf we are not able to extend our existing zero rates or The Government’s response to the consultation, published introduce new exemptions from VAT. in November 2008, is available at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ pbr08_aviationduty_395.pdf WOMEN AND EQUALITY

Taxation: Holiday Accommodation Departmental Advertising

Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for Women and Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Equality how much the Government Equalities Office pursuant to the answer of 11 January 2010, Official has spent on (a) print, (b) online, (c) television and Report, column 765W, on furnished holiday lettings, if (d) radio advertising in each year since it was established; he will make an estimate of the number of furnished and what percentage of advertising expenditure in each holiday lettings owned by (a) UK residents and (b) such year was managed by the Central Office of residents of other EU member states in (i) North Yorkshire Information. [309903] and (ii) England. [312342] Michael Jabez Foster: The Government Equalities Mr. Timms: There are an estimated 75,000 furnished Office was established on 12 October 2007. For the holiday lettings properties. Of these, around 62,000 are financial year 2007-08 there was no expenditure on owned by individuals with a correspondence address in advertising. In 2008-09 the GEO spent £26,776.43 on England and around 6,000 are owned by individuals in advertising. All of this was related to print and associated Yorkshire and Humberside. HM Revenue and Customs’ on-line newspaper advertising. In 2009-10 to date GEO’ (HMRC) administrative systems do not have information has spent £63,345 on advertising all of which was print on the location of the properties themselves. Non-UK related and mainly covered recruitment to the Boards of residents are not eligible to claim tax relief under the GEO’s NDPBs. None of the detailed expenditure was furnished holiday lettings rules. managed by the Central Office of Information. 373W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 374W

Departmental Billing Afghanistan: Corruption

Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign what estimate she has made of the average length of and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made time taken by (a) the Government Equalities Office of the proportion of Afghanistan’s GDP attributable and (b) its agencies to pay invoices from (i) small and to bribery; what steps his Department is taking to medium-sized enterprises and (ii) all creditors in the last counter bribery in Afghanistan; and if he will make a 12 months. [315140] statement. [313156]

Michael Jabez Foster: The Government Equalities Chris Bryant: The Government made no such estimation. Office continues to meet its target of paying over 90 per However, Afghanistan ranks second to last on Transparency cent. of all trade creditors including small and medium-sized International’s Corruption Perception Index (before enterprises within 10-working days of receipt of a valid Somalia) and nearly one in every five Afghans experience invoice. corruption when trying to access public health care and state electricity supply. Integrity Watch Afghanistan estimate that in some provinces, households on average Departmental Public Expenditure pay $100 per year in bribes to public officials. This is a lot of money for most households in a country where David Simpson: To ask the Minister for Women and the average annual income for an Afghan is US$354 Equality how much the Government Equalities Office and huge inequalities exist between rich and poor. spent on (a) new furnishings, (b) works of art and (c) At the London Conference on Afghanistan on 28 January new vehicles in each year since its inception. [312514] 2010 the Government of Afghanistan committed to: strengthen the independent High Office of Oversight to investigate Michael Jabez Foster: Since it’s creation on 12 October and sanction corrupt officials; 2007, the Government Equalities Office has not spent introduce an independent, merit-based civil service appointment any money on new furnishings, works of art or new and vetting process; vehicles. bring their laws in line with the UN Convention Against Corruption; and Equality Bill 2008-09: Equality Bill 2009-10 invite a group of Afghan and international experts to develop clear benchmarks for progress and regularly report against these benchmarks. Margaret Moran: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality whether guidance has been prepared for The International Community in return promised to those organisations which would have duties under the support them in that task. provisions proposed in the Equality Bill. [315110] Building Afghan institutions that are durable, capable and accountable to their people is key to success in Michael Jabez Foster: Clear, practical guidance on Afghanistan and a key element of the UK mission in the Equality Bill will help people to understand their Afghanistan. Tackling corruption at all levels is essential rights and responsibilities under the Bill. Better to achieving this. The UK has set up a Multi-Agency understanding should improve compliance and ensure Task Force (MATF) of experts across the Government people can assert their rights. to support the Afghan Government’s efforts to tackle corruption. The MATF is focused on prevention efforts The Equality and Human Rights Commission has such as improving public financial management, building statutory responsibility to produce guidance on all the Afghan law enforcement so that impunity can end, the Equality Bill provisions except the socio-economic duty. strengthening of accountability bodies and opportunities The Commission published draft guidance on the for citizens to hold their government to account. employment provisions in the Bill for public consultation on 27 January 2010 and will be publishing further draft Belarus: Human Rights guidance for consultation shortly. The Government will issue guidance for public bodies Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign on the socio-economic duty later this year. It will draw and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has on the principles set out in the guide to the duty we made of (a) the human rights situation and (b) progress published on 8 January, and will be the subject of on democratic reform in Belarus; and if he will make a consultation with relevant public bodies. statement. [315198]

Chris Bryant: We have significant concerns about human rights in Belarus which we set out in the Foreign FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE and Commonwealth Office’s annual Human Rights Report. The Belarusian authorities continue to harass 1 Carlton Gardens civil society, non-governmental organisations, religious organisations and the independent media. Belarus is the only European country to continue to use the death Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State penalty. However, there have been some small but welcome for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether there improvements in the past two years. In particular, we are plans to sell 1 Carlton Gardens. [313783] welcome the decision to allow a number of independent newspapers access to state distribution, and to allow Chris Bryant: No. European Radio for Belarus to open a correspondents’ 375W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 376W office for a year. We also welcome the engagement by governments to work with workers’ and employers’ the Belarusian authorities in the EU’s Eastern Partnership, groups to improve their ability to comply with, and and the EU-Belarus Human Rights Dialogue launched enforce, labour laws. in 2009. The UK Government continue to call on businesses Progress on democratic reform has also been slow. to look at their supply chains and take appropriate Belarus has responded to some of the recommendations action if they find evidence that goods have been produced made by the OSCE/ODIHR Election Monitoring Mission using child labour. in 2008. This is a positive step, though we are disappointed There is no legal requirement for goods to bear that an important change—the right of observers to marks indicating their origin. As such it would be view the ballot papers as they are counted—was not difficult for the Government to establish a blanket ban included in the proposed reforms. The conduct of local on imports of Uzbek cotton and clothing. Similarly, elections in April 2010 will be an important test of the products manufactured using Uzbek cotton in a third willingness of the Belarusian authorities to meet country would legitimately bear the country of manufacture international election standards. as the country of origin. Departmental Official Engagements

Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans to meet the US ambassador at Large for Global Women’s Issues during her visit to the UK in February. [315193] Climate Change: Finance

Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK remains fully committed to Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for the protection and promotion of all human rights, International Development what proportion of the including the rights of women. We work closely with UK’s fast-start financing for climate change adaptation international partners to promote gender equality and will be drawn from his Department’s existing budgets. women’s rights through international organisations; and [314906] through our promotion of women’s rights bilaterally. We are keen to work closely with ambassador Verveer Mr. Thomas: In 2010-11, around 60-65 per cent. of on issues affecting women globally. A decision on who the UK’s fast-start financing for adaptation will come will meet her will be made subject to confirmation of from The Department for International Development’s her final travel programme. (DFID’s) budget. The departmental budgets for 2011-12 and 2012-13 Uzbekistan: Cotton have not yet been decided. The UK remains committed to providing additional Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for post 2012 financing on top of the 0.7 per cent. official Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his development assistance (ODA) commitment and to limiting Department is taking to prevent imports of (a) cotton the share of our ODA for climate change to no more and (b) clothing which has been produced by child than 10 per cent. labour in Uzbekistan; and if he will make a statement. [315197] Departmental Billing Chris Bryant: The UK remains concerned about reports of the use of child labour in the cotton sector in Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Uzbekistan. The UK has raised its concerns with the International Development what estimate he has made Uzbek Government and through the EU. Our embassy of the average length of time taken by his Department in Tashkent also remains in regular contact with the to pay invoices from (a) small and medium-sized United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) on the enterprises and (b) all creditors in the last 12 months. issue. In order to support the establishment of stronger [315128] child labour monitoring systems in Uzbekistan our embassy is funding a project that has delivered informal Mr. Michael Foster: The Prime Minister announced education and vocational training to children most at in October 2008 that all central Government Departments risk of child labour in thirteen rural areas. will aim to pay invoices within ten days. The Department for International Development (DFID) commenced The EU welcomed Uzbekistan’s signing of the reporting of ten day payment performance in November International Labour Organisation Convention on the 2008. In December 2009 DFID reported 96.03 per cent. Worst Forms of Child Labour and the Minimum Age of invoices were paid within ten days. DFID does not of Employment in 2008 and 2009 respectively. A National separately capture payment information by small or Action Plan was launched in 2008 to ensure implementation medium-sized enterprises. of these conventions. We continue to urge Uzbekistan to implement effectively its international obligations in this regard. Haiti: Earthquakes The EU can temporarily withdraw trade preferences provided to developing countries under its Generalised Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for International System of Preferences, if there is sufficient evidence of Development what assistance his Department is providing labour rights violations. However, the EU and UK to ensure that cholera does not break out in camps for believe the best way to improve labour standards is for displaced persons in Haiti. [315030] 377W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 378W

Mr. Michael Foster: Shortly after the earthquake the Nuclear Industries Security Regulations 2003 as struck on 12 January, the Department for International amended, by the independent security regulator, the Development (DFID) announced £300,000 in funding Office for Civil Nuclear Security (OCNS). to the World Health Organisation (WHO) for disease Governance of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary is surveillance to help prevent epidemics. carried out by the Civil Nuclear Police Authority, a Despite some increase in diarrhoea, tetanus and non-departmental public body for which the Secretary contagious diseases, comprehensive surveillance has not of State for Energy and Climate Change is responsible. detected any major signs so far. The Civil Nuclear Constabulary is inspected and Our field team reports that co-ordination of the supported by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary water and sanitation relief efforts continue to improve (HMIC). despite the scope and complexity of this response. To The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change strengthen co-ordination, we have given £1 million to is responsible to Parliament for security in the civil the UN Office for Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs nuclear industry and reviews from time to time the (OCHA) for co-ordination. This funding is helping to overall arrangements to ensure these are robust and strengthen the efforts of implementing partners on the appropriate. ground to address sanitation issues and reduce the risk of diseases such as cholera. Climate Change: International Cooperation Sub-Saharan Africa: Aids Mr. Paul Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department International Development To ask the Secretary of plans to take in co-operation with its international State for International Development, what recent counterparts to take forward the provisions of the discussions he has had with representatives of governments treaty signed in Copenhagen on Climate Change. of sub-Saharan African countries about policy to tackle [314557] Aids; and if he will make a statement. [315201] Joan Ruddock: The Copenhagen Accord agreed in Mr. Thomas: The Department for International December 2009 does not have the legal status of a Development (DFID) provides support to the following treaty, but includes a number of commitments made by countries in sub-Saharan Africa on developing and the countries which agreed to it. The UK Government implementing policies to tackle AIDS: Angola, Democratic have been working through both bilateral and multilateral Republic of Congo (DRC), Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya, channels (including our FCO posts and other countries) Lesotho, Liberia, Malawi, Mozambique, Nigeria, Rwanda, to encourage others to associate themselves with the Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda, Copenhagen Accord and support its implementation. Zambia and Zimbabwe. We have also been encouraging others to put forward DFID officials, based in the UK and oversees, are in ambitious mitigation commitments and actions in the regular contact with representatives of governments in Annex to the Accord. Initial assessments show that these countries regarding HIV/AIDS policy. most of the major countries have associated themselves with the Accord and put forward mitigation commitments. There have not been recent discussions between DFID A definitive list will soon be available on the UNFCCC Ministers and representatives of governments of sub- website. Saharan African countries specifically regarding policies to tackle AIDS. However, DFID Ministers have had frequent discussions with such government representatives Fuel Poverty on policies which have an impact on AIDS. Globally, the UK provides the second largest bilateral Mr. Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy contribution to tackle AIDS. In our AIDS Strategy, and Climate Change what his most recent estimate is of launched in 2008, we committed to spending £6 billion the number of households in fuel poverty as a result of on health systems and services up to 2015. We also the costs arising from heating properties to the pledged £1 billion to the Global Fund to fight AIDS, temperature required to manage disability and related TB and Malaria by 2015 and over £200 million to long-term medical conditions. [314576] support social protection programmes. Mr. Kidney: It is not possible to say how many people were fuel poor solely due to the cost of heating required to manage a disability or medical condition. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Civil Nuclear Constabulary and Climate Change what steps his Department is taking to reduce the level of fuel poverty in Torbay Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for constituency. [314608] Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the regulatory regime Mr. Kidney: The Department of Energy and Climate for the Civil Nuclear Constabulary. [314535] Change is responsible for national programmes aimed at reducing fuel poverty. The combination of Warm Mr. Kidney: The Civil Nuclear Constabulary forms a Front, the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT), key part of the security arrangements for the UK’s civil Community Energy Savings Programme (CESP), Decent nuclear industry which are required to be in place under Homes and local programmes delivered through local 379W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 380W government, partnerships, energy suppliers, eaga and Mr. Kidney: Over the programme to return highly NEA (such as Warm Zones and CEEF) are all important active waste (HAW) arising from reprocessing of overseas in tackling fuel poverty across regions of England. spent fuel, the return of substituted HAW will take The Warm Front Scheme is the Government’s main place. The details of the status of individual customers’ scheme for tackling fuel poverty and up to 28 January HAW returns is a commercial matter between the parties 2010 has delivered energy efficiency measures to 5,781 involved. households in Torbay constituency since the year 2000. The first shipment consists of 28 HLW canisters in Additionally, 282 benefit entitlement checks have been one transport flask, with each canister (vitrified waste undertaken between 2003 and the end of November and stainless steel) weighing up to 550kg. 2009, identifying an average weekly increase in income The NDA’s expenditure in supporting this shipment of £26.97 for those entitled to additional benefits. is customer funded. The Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) In accordance with national and international regulations, requires energy suppliers to meet at least 40 per cent. of the vessel will not be armed nor have an armed escort. their obligation by promoting and installing measures The shipment has appropriate levels of security protection in the homes of a priority group of vulnerable consumers in accordance with the nuclear industry security regulations. in receipt of qualifying benefits or people aged over 70 These arrangements comply with the requirements of years. Measures are only reported at GB level and the UK regulator, the Office for Civil Nuclear Security. details at constituency level are not available. Warm Front Scheme: Torbay Fuel Poverty: Ashford Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change how many households in Torbay Energy and Climate Change what steps his constituency received assistance under the Warm Front Department is taking to reduce the level of fuel poverty scheme in 2008-09. [314623] among the residents of Ashford constituency. [313519]

Mr. Kidney: The Department of Energy and Climate Mr. Kidney: The Warm Front Scheme is the Change is responsible for national programmes aimed Government’s main scheme for tacking fuel poverty at reducing fuel poverty. The combination of Warm across England. In 2008-09 the Warm Front Scheme Front, the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT), assisted 656 households in the Torbay constituency. Community Energy Savings Programme (CESP), Decent Homes and local programmes delivered through local Wind Power government, partnerships, energy suppliers, eaga and NEA (such as Warm Zones and CEEF) are all important Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for in tackling fuel poverty across regions of England. Energy and Climate Change (1) what generating capacity The Warm Front scheme is the Government’s main of what types is planned to be built to provide back-up scheme for tackling fuel poverty and up to 24 January to support the nine zone Round 3 offshore wind generating 2010 has delivered energy efficiency measures to 1,904 turbines; and at what cost; [311089] households in Ashford constituency since the year 2000. (2) what income is to be guaranteed to generating Additionally, over 310 benefit entitlement checks have plants built as back-up to the nine zone Round 3 been undertaken since June 2003, identifying an average offshore wind generating turbines when they are (a) weekly increase in income of £27.84 for those entitled to not generating and (b) operating at low capacity. additional benefits. [311090] The Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) requires energy suppliers to meet at least 40 per cent. of Mr. Kidney: The Government set out in the 2009 call their obligation by promoting and installing measures for evidence “Delivering Secure Low Carbon Electricity” in the homes of a priority group of vulnerable consumers their assessment of the need for flexible power stations in receipt of qualifying benefits or people aged over to provide back-up for periods when wind output is low, 70 years. Measures are only reported at GB level and and invited responses on this assessment and on options details at constituency level are not available. for increasing electricity supply and demand flexibility. These responses will be considered as part of the energy Radioactive Materials: Waste Management markets assessment work announced in the pre-Budget report. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether substitution of some Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for UK-origin high level radioactive waste for intermediate Energy and Climate Change what percentage of Round level waste was applied under the repatriation agreement 3 offshore wind generating platforms will be constructed covering the long-term management of radioactive waste in the UK. [311091] arising from reprocessing of imported foreign origin spent fuel in the shipment of radioactive waste from Mr. Kidney: Offshore wind turbines consist of a wide Sellafield to Japan sent on 20 January 2009; how much range of components, including towers, blades, castings nuclear waste was in the shipment; how much the and forgings, nacelles, gearboxes and bearings, undersea Nuclear Decommissioning Authority has spent on cable, foundations, electrical and control components, supporting this shipment; and whether an armed escort that are likely to be sourced from a broad supply chain. vessel is accompanying the shipment. [313747] The offshore wind projects under Round 3 are still in 381W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 382W development and it is not yet known what percentage Monthly data are only collected from major power of these components will be sourced or assembled in producers (MPPs) and it is not possible to separate the UK. onshore and offshore wind generation. We collect more In order to maximise the business for UK companies detailed data on an annual basis which cover both and new green jobs, the Government will work with MPPs and smaller generators with an onshore/offshore developers and The Crown Estate to support the growing split. In 2008 onshore wind farms generated 5,792GWh offshore wind industry and help remove barriers to and offshore l,305GWh. Equivalent data for 2009 will rapid deployment. This will include events around the be available on 29 July 2010. country organised by The Crown Estate that bring Monthly wind generation together developers and UK businesses. Government GWh are also supporting the next generation technologies that this scale of deployment will need, through a 2008 package of support to ensure the UK benefits from this November 598.3 innovative market. December 528.5

Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 Energy and Climate Change in which country each January 701.7 company is based which will (a) install and (b) run the February 464.3 generating platforms in each zone of Round 3 offshore March 611.3 wind development. [311093] April 439.9 Mr. Kidney: Each of the Partner companies that is May 573.2 party to a Zone Development Agreement (ZDA) is June 343.3 registered in England and Wales. For Zones 1 (Moray July 488.8 Firth), Zone 2 (Firth of Forth) and 5 (Norfolk Bank), August 516.8 the main offices of the Partner will be in Scotland. For September 502.9 all other zones, the main offices of the Partner will be in October 489.4 England. The ZDA grants exclusive rights to develop wind Wind Power: Noise power within the zone, which is effectively the right to seek all the necessary consents for the wind farms. Each Mr. Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for wind farm will be developed and owned by a new Energy and Climate Change if he will review the standards Project Company, who will hold the Lease from The in respect of noise from wind turbines contained in the Crown Estate. Each new Project Company must be document ETSU-R-97 for the purposes of further limiting registered in England and Wales, Scotland or Northern the permitted level of noise. [314413] Ireland, and will initially be owned by the Partner. Mr. Kidney: We consider that ETSU-R-97 is fit for purpose, and that a review is not justified at this time. Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change from what source the nine Round 3 offshore wind developments will be funded. HEALTH [311094] Abortion Mr. Kidney: The Government are working hard to Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for provide a positive policy framework to facilitate the UK Health whether his Department has commissioned offshore wind industry. Renewable electricity generated recent research on a potential link between spending on by wind will continue to receive support through the community contraception services and the abortion Renewables Obligation, which has recently been extended rate per 1,000 women aged between 15 and 44 years; to 2037 to ensure Round 3 developers investing up to how much each primary care trust spent on community 2020 can do so with confidence. contraception services in the last 12 months; what the Within this context, the source of funding and investment abortion rate per 1,000 women aged between 15 and needed for the construction and operation of any individual 44 years was in each primary care trust in each of the Round 3 offshore wind farms is for the successful last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. developers to source and provide. [313659] Gillian Merron: The Department has not commissioned Wind Power: Electricity Generation any research on the potential link between spending on community contraceptive services and abortion rates. Mr. Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy However, the Government’s significant additional funding and Climate Change what his estimate is of the amount over the past two years to improve women’s access to of electricity generated by onshore wind farms in each contraception has contributed to a decrease in abortion of the last two months. [310919] rates: the abortion rate for women resident in England and Wales fell by 1.7 per cent, between 2007 and 2008 Mr. Kidney: The Department collects wind data on a and by a further 4.6 per cent, in the first six months monthly basis. These data are published two months in of 2009. arrears, so the latest data available are for October 2009. Information on spending on community contraceptive Available data for the last 12 months are given in the services by primary care trust (PCT) is not available table. centrally. 383W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 384W

Information on the abortion rate per 1,000 women Copies of these documents have been placed in the aged between 15 and 44 years by PCT for each month in Library- 2008 has been placed in the Library. The 2009 annual There has been no specific assessment of the level of abortion data will be published on 25 May 2010. risk of contracting vCJD through podiatric procedures. Blood: Donors ACDP considers these procedures as low risk on the basis of tissue infectivity and therefore no specific measures are required. As for all surgery high standards of instrument Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State decontamination should be maintained. for Health with reference to the recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs, whether his Department has made a Departmental Manpower decision on the proposed introduction of the P-Capt filter into paediatrics. [314515] Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many employees in (a) his Department Gillian Merron: This advice was received by the and (b) each of its agencies are in transition prior to Department following the October 2009 meeting of the being managed out; how long on average the transition Advisory Committee on Safety of Blood, Tissues and window between notification and exit has been in (i) his Organs. The Department is currently carrying out an Department and (ii) each of its agencies in each of the assessment of the potential impact of implementation last five years; what estimate he has made of the salary of this advice on the national health service. costs of staff in transition in each such year; and what proportion of employees in transition were classed as CJD being so for more than six months in each year. [313240] Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what recent assessment his Department Phil Hope: The Department does not formally have has made of the level of risk of contracting variant staff in transition. Where staff are displaced from their Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease through podiatric current post, their redeployment is managed through a procedures; and whether he has made an assessment of priority posting pool. On 1 January 2010 there were the (a) merits and (b) cost of implementing measures 13 displaced staff in the pool. This number includes to mitigate that risk; [314638] displaced staff across all grades. (2) what recent assessment his Department has made The Department does not record information about of the level of risk of contracting variant Creutzfeld- how long each individual remains in the pool, but most Jakob disease through brain surgery procedures; and do secure a permanent post within six months. whether he has made an assessment of the (a) merits and (b) cost of implementing measures to mitigate Over the last five years, a small number of staff have left the Department under compulsory redundancy terms, that risk; [314643] following a period of redeployment. These are shown in (3) what recent assessment his Department has made the following table: of the level of risk of contracting variant Creutzfeld- Jakob disease through ophthalmological procedures; Number of compulsory and whether he has made an assessment of the (a) redundancies merits and (b) cost of implementing measures to 2005-06 8 mitigate that risk. [314644] 2006-07 8 Gillian Merron: The Department takes advice from 2007-08 10 the Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) 2008-09 0 on the variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) risk 2009-101 1 associated with different tissues and different surgical 1Up to December 2009 procedures, and takes a precautionary approach to The core Department’s records do not show how handling such risks. ACDP’s advice ranks brain and long each of these staff were displaced before leaving rear of eye (contacted in some ophthalmic surgery) the Department. tissues, and surgery on these tissues, as at high level of The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory potential risk and has published guidance on measures Agency (MHRA) reports that no staff were “in transition” to reduce the risks. All ACDP’s advice is available at over the last five years. “Guidance from the ACDP TSE Working Group”: The NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency (PASA) www.dh.gov.uk/ab/ACDP/TSEguidance/index.htm has been subject to a significant change programme as The Department’s 2001 risk assessment for transmission the functions of the agency are in the process of being of vCJD via surgical instruments is published at “Risk transferred to other organisations. The closure of PASA assessment for transmission of vCJD via surgical is being effected over the 2009-10 financial year. No instruments: a modelling approach and numerical other data is available from PASA for the previous five scenarios:” years. In 2009-10 to date the number of staff initially www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ placed at risk, was 236. Of these 108 were made PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_4075387 compulsorily redundant the remainder have been redeployed A 2005 review of this work, assessing the risk of or are currently being redeployed. Average period between vCJD transmission via surgery: an interim review, is notification and exit of those PASA staff was four published at: months. The total salary costs of PASA staff in transition www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ was £14,998,475 and the overall proportion of employees PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_4113541 in transition for more than six months was 22 per cent. 385W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 386W

Health Services: Voluntary Work Phil Hope: The model referred to in paragraphs 5.12, 5.13 and Annex B of the impact assessment is still Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State under development. For this reason, its output has not for Health how much funding his Department has been incorporated into any of the figures reported in allocated to the Opportunities for Volunteering scheme the impact assessment. The model will continue to be in each of the last five financial years; and how much updated and refined as more information becomes available. funding he plans to allocate to the health and social The Personal Social Services Research Unit (PSSRU) care volunteering fund in the next five financial years. has constructed a dynamic microsimulation model to [314513] produce estimates for the Green and White Papers of the costs and other impacts of reforms to the funding Phil Hope: Over the next three years, the existing system for care and support for older people. The model OFV scheme will be wound-down concurrently as the consists of data on almost 30,000 older people in waves funding to the new volunteering fund is correspondingly 3 to 15 of the British Household Panel Survey. The data increased. The total budget available for volunteering includes information on each person’s age, gender, will remain the same subject to the outcome of the next household composition, disability (activities of daily spending review. Allocations to the OFV scheme will living), income, savings, receipt of informal care and continue through 2010-11 and 2011-12 but there will be other characteristics. a natural tapering of these as there will be no further OFV grants awarded. Table 13 of PSSRU discussion paper 2644 sets out the unit costs of residential care and community care Funding allocated to Opportunities for Volunteering that are used in the modelling. These are derived from (OFV) in each of the last five financial years is as data provided by local authorities via the Personal follows: Social Services (PSS) EX1 return. They are assumed to increase by 2 per cent. per year in real terms, in line with Financial year Allocation (£) expected rises in real earnings. 2009-10 6,807,823 The NHS Information Centre provides the information 2008-09 6,746,000 for part (c) Table 35e as a response to a Health Select 2007-08 6,698,000 Committee Question. This table contains the unit costs 2006-07 6,684,000 for the hourly rate for home care provided or commissioned 2005-06 6,883,000 by Councils with Adult Social Services Responsibilities (CASSRs) to adults (aged 18 and over). It is not possible to provide definitive information on The unit cost of services provided or commissioned the next five years’ allocation of funding to the Health by CASSRs to adults is collected via the PSS EX1 and Social Care Volunteering Fund as budgets for return. The PSS EX1 return collects both financial and 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 will be subject to the activity information and has been the responsibility of outcome of the next spending review. However, the the NHS Information Centre since April 2005. Prior to contract for the Health and Social Care Volunteering this date data was collected by the Department. Fund has been awarded for three years starting in The unit costs are average costs and are calculated 2009-10, with funding estimated in the contract terms using gross total cost for home care (i.e. including as follows: capital charges and before deducting client contributions) divided by the total number of home help/care contact Financial Year Allocation (£) hours for all adults (aged 18 and over) during a sample 2009-10 273,177 week, multiplied by 52. 2010-11 2,493,885 The activity figures for clients receiving home care 2011-12 3,834,272 are taken from a survey in a typical week in September each year. The figures are for services provided or Home Care Services commissioned by a local authority. This will exclude private arrangements by an individual. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State In 2007-08 a change has been made to the definition for Health pursuant to the answer of 9 December 2009, of capital charges to bring the PSS EX1 data in line Official Report, column 495W,on social services, whether with the 2006 local authority Accounting Statement of the figures given in table 2 of the Personal Care at Recommended Practice. This means that total cost cannot Home Bill impact assessment for additional costs relate be compared historically. to million of pounds. [314570] A new column was added to the PSS EX1 return in 2007-08 to record grants to voluntary organisations Phil Hope: The additional cost figures in table 2 of against the appropriate service line to allow more the Personal Care at Home Bill impact assessment are meaningful unit costs for provision by others to be shown in millions of pounds. This is labelled in the calculated. Grants are now excluded from the unit cost amended version of the impact assessment, which was expenditure as only activity relating to the CASSR care published on 11 January 2010. A copy has already been plan can be recorded and used in the unit cost calculation. placed in Library. This change combined with the change to the definition of capital charges which applies to both own provision Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State and provision by others means that the unit costs for for Health what methodology was used to calculate the 2007-08 cannot be compared with previous years. costs in (a) Annex B of the impact assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill, (b) table 13 of the PSSRU Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State discussion paper 2644 and (c) table 35e of his Department’s for Health what methodology was used to calculate the memorandum contained in HC 269-i. [314640] number of critical care users (a) in table 10 of the 387W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 388W

PSSRU discussion paper 2644 and (b) table 2 of the Phil Hope: Information is not available in the format impact assessment for the Personal Care at Home Bill. requested. The following table shows the average daily [314641] number of available acute beds per 100,000 population, for the period 2002-03 to 2008-09 for the former Norfolk Phil Hope: The Personal Social Services Research Suffolk and Cambridgeshire Strategic Health Authority Unit (PSSRU) has constructed a dynamic microsimulation (SHA), the East of England SHA which was created on model to produce estimates for the Green and White 1 October 2006, following the merger of three previous Papers of the costs and other impacts of reforms to the SHA (Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire SHA, Essex funding system for care and support for older people. SHA and Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire SHA), the The model consists of data on almost 30,000 older former Suffolk West PCT and Suffolk Primary Care people in waves 3 to 15 of the British Household Panel Trust (PCT). Survey. The data includes information on each person’s age, gender, household composition, disability (affecting Norfolk, Suffolk activities of daily living (ADLs)), income, savings, receipt and East of of informal care and other characteristics. The modelling Cambridgeshire England Suffolk Suffolk SHA SHA West PCT PCT assumes that disability rates (by age and gender) remain constant over time. 2002-03 213.3 n/a 2.8 n/a Each disabled person in the model is assigned: 2003-04 218.7 n/a 1— n/a 1 informal care, which is imputed on the basis of disability and 2004-05 211.5 n/a — n/a living alone; 2005-06 198.0 n/a 1— n/a 1 Fair Access to Care Services (FACS) guidance category, which 2006-07 n/a 154.4 n/a — is imputed on the basis of disability and other factors; and 2007-08 n/a 150.6 n/a 1— a normative care package, assigned on the basis of their needs 2008-09 n/a 148.5 n/a 1— (disability and household composition). 1 Denotes zero Notes: Table 10 of PSSRU discussion paper 2644 sets out 1. Due to SHA reconfigurations, data from prior to 2002-03 are not the numbers of older people in the model that fall into available at SHA level. each level of need, as defined in FACS, based on their 2 Suffolk West PCT only provided acute beds in 2002-03. They severity of impairment, before any consideration of subsequently provided geriatric beds. their informal care situation. Table 12 sets out similar 3 Suffolk West PCT was formed at the start of 2002-03 from Bury St information after consideration of informal care. Edmonds PCT. The old organisation did not provide any beds. 4. Suffolk PCT was formed in October 2006 from the merger of The starting point for the estimates of service users Suffolk Coastal PCT, Ipswich PCT, Central Suffolk PCT and Suffolk who are defined as critical under FACS reporting difficulty West PCT. Suffolk PCT does not provide any acute beds. with four or more ADLs shown in table 2 of the Impact 5. Figures may have altered slightly from the answer to earlier PQs as the table has been updated using the revised population statistics Assessment is an estimate of the number of FACS issued by the Office of National Statistics. critical users at home taken from PSSRU’s microsimulation Source: model for older people. This initial estimate differs from Department of Health form KH03 and Office for National Statistics the FACS critical volume figure in table 10 of the for population data. PSSRU discussion paper 2644 in two important regards. Midwives First, the figures in the discussion paper relate to those in both residential and domiciliary settings, whereas what is important for the purpose of the Impact Assessment Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health is the number of those living at home. In practice, how many people have (a) taken up and (b) left a job almost all those in a residential care setting are likely to as a midwife in each of the last five years. [315439] have critical needs. And secondly, the figures in the discussion paper are estimated before informal care Ann Keen: This information is not collected by the considerations. Since receipt or not of informal care is Department in the manner requested. part of the assessment of Fair Access to Care, it is an The following table shows the number of midwives in important consideration in determining the number of post, within the National Health Service in England in people deemed to be FACS critical. each of the last five years. The next step is to estimate the number of FACS critical individuals reporting difficulty with four or Registered midwives more ADLs. This is done using the information in table 2004 24,844 1 of the Impact Assessment, and is explained in detail 2005 24,808 in the responses I gave to him on 14 December 2009, 2006 24,469 Official Report, columns 762-3W. 2007 25,093 2008 25,664 Hospital Beds: East of England Source: Department of Health Non-Medical Workforce Census Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many acute hospital beds there were per head of Musgrove Park Hospital Taunton population in (a) the former Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire strategic health authority area, (b) the Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State East of England strategic health authority area, (c) the for Health what the five-year survival rate for patients former Suffolk west primary care trust area and (d) treated for (a) lung, (b) kidney and (c) liver cancer at Suffolk primary care trust area in each relevant year Musgrove Park hospital, Taunton was at the latest date since 1997. [314886] for which figures are available. [314307] 389W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 390W

Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. NHS: Local Government The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State to reply. for Health which primary care trusts (a) have and (b) Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 28 January 2010: have not appointed a local director of public health jointly with each relevant local authority. [314642] As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking what the five year survival rate for patients treated for (a) lung, (b) kidney Gillian Merron: This information can be found in and (c) liver cancer at Musgrove Park Hospital, Taunton was at tables which have been placed in the Library. the latest date for which figures are available. [314307] Nurses Cancer survival rates are not routinely available for patients treated in individual hospitals. One-year survival figures for three cancers (breast, colorectal Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and lung) by primary care trust have recently been published by how many nurses had not secured a nursing position the Department of Health in the second annual report of the within (a) one month, (b) three months, (c) six months, Cancer Reform Strategy. The report can be downloaded from this (d) one year, (e) two years and (f) five years after link: qualifying in each of the last five years. [315073] http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_109338 Ann Keen: This information is not collected centrally. Nutrition NHS: Children Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for Health how many people were recorded as having what (a) statutory and (b) other obligation applies to (a) an admission and (b) a discharge episode with a the NHS in respect of its duty of care towards children diagnosis of (i) malnutrition, (ii) nutritional anaemias by reporting (i) births and (ii) evidence of lack of care and (iii) other nutritional deficiencies in each (A) of a child to local children’s services; and if he will strategic health authority and (B) primary care trust make a statement. [315355] commissioning area of residence in each year since 1997-98. [314565]

Ann Keen: The Children Act 2004 places a duty on Gillian Merron: This information has been placed in local authorities through their directors of children’s the Library. services to co-ordinate the production of a strategic Children and Young People’s Plan in order to provide Social Services: Regulation an overarching vision for all children and young people inagivenarea. Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health visitors, who are notified of all pregnancies how many (a) improvement plans, (b) warning letters, and births and are responsible for the registered population, (c) statutory requirement notices, (d) changes to conditions are an integral part of the child health team. of registration and (e) cancellations of registration Under section 11 of the Act, all primary care trusts, were issued by the Commission for Social Care Inspection NHS trusts, NHS foundation trusts and strategic health in relation to each category of care in each of the last authorities have a statutory duty to make arrangements five years; and if he will make a statement. [313748] to safeguard and promote the welfare of children, and are members of Local Safeguarding Children Boards. Phil Hope: The information has been provided by the The inter-agency statutory guidance, Working Together Care Quality Commission. to Safeguard Children, states that The information is not available in the format requested. ″If somebody believes that a child may be suffering, or be at The Commission is unable to provide the requested risk of suffering, significant harm, then they should always refer ″ information relating to improvement plans or warning their concerns to LA children’s social care. letters. These are not specifically recorded in its central database. NHS: Ex-servicemen The Commission has advised that it is unable to provide statutory requirement notices. The following table shows the numbers of statutory enforcement notices Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for issued to adult social care services each year. Health how many veterans received priority treatment Number of statutory enforcement notices issued to adult social care on the NHS in 2009. [313426] services in each financial year 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-081 Mr. Mike O’Brien: Priority access to national health Home care 1 6 39 24 service secondary care for conditions likely to be related agency to service (subject to the clinical needs of all patients), Nurses 1187 previously only available to war pensioners, was extended agency to all veterans (someone who has served at least one day Nursing 86 136 142 86 in the United Kingdom armed forces) from 1 January home 2008. Data on the number of veterans receiving priority Residential 216 221 359 223 treatment are not collected centrally. care home 391W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 392W

Number of statutory enforcement notices issued to adult social care The Commission has advised that it does not hold services in each financial year data on changes to conditions of registration. 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-081 The Commission has provided the following data on Total 304 364 548 340 cancellations, which is broken down into non-urgent 1 The Commission has figures for statutory enforcement notices up to and urgent cancellations. 31 October 2007 only for the year 2007-08. After that point the Commission stopped collecting this information centrally, and although the information is collected locally it is not broken down into the categories shown.

2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Non-urgent cancellations of registration of adult social care services Home care agency 0 7 14 20 9 Nurses agency 8 6 10 16 6 Nursing home 8 7 6 7 8 Residential care home 16 26 27 23 23 Total 32 46 57 66 46

Urgent cancellations of registration of adult social care services Residential care home 5 0 3 9 3 Nursing home 0 1 0 0 3 Home care agency 0 1 0 0 1 Total 52397

Tarceva Law Commission, which published a consultation paper: Intestacy and Family Provision Claims on Death (Law Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Com CP No. 191) in October 2009. The Commission for what reason the NHS does not meet the cost of the expects to report in 2011. prescription of Tarceva to patients in England; and Since the publication of the response, I have not whether he plans to review this policy. [315359] received any representations that specifically relate to the consultation paper. Mr. Mike O’Brien: The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) published technology appraisal guidance in November 2008 recommending Data Access and Compliance Unit Tarceva as an alternative to the drug docetaxel for the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice treatment of non-small cell lung cancer. Primary care which senior officials work in his Department’s Data trusts are statutorily required to make funding available Access and Compliance Unit; what their roles are; what for treatments recommended by NICE’s technology their qualifications are for undertaking those roles; and appraisal guidance. who is responsible for the performance of the unit. [314696] JUSTICE Mr. Wills: The Data Access and Compliance Unit is part of the Information Access Division, which is Administration of Estates responsible for the Ministry’s compliance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act and Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Data Protection Act, as well as for the provision of Justice what recent representations he has received on library services to the Ministry. It is headed by a Senior the consultation carried out by his Department’s Civil Servant, reporting to the Information Director. predecessor on Administration of estates: review of the The performance of the Unit is monitored at all levels statutory legacy. [314406] of management, individual measures being part of the Bridget Prentice: We received 33 responses to the job objectives of the members of staff involved. All consultation: Administration of Estates - Review of the managers receive appropriate levels of training and Statutory Legacy (CP 11/05). We published the post- support to enable them to fulfil their roles. consultation report in August 2008 (CP(R) 11/05). As a Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice result of the consultation, we increased the statutory what evaluations have been made of the performance of legacy from £125,000 to £250,000 where the deceased his Department’s Data Access and Compliance Unit; leaves a surviving spouse or civil partner and children who undertook those evaluations; and what use has and from £200,000 to £450,000 where the deceased been made of those evaluations by (a) his Departments leaves a surviving spouse or civil partner and parents or Corporate Management Board and (b) Ministers. siblings, but no children. These changes were implemented [314716] on 1 February 2009. The consultation paper also sought views on whether Mr. Wills: The Ministry of Justice’s Data Access and there should be a review of the general law of intestacy. Compliance Unit’s performance targets are incorporated Following the response, this topic was referred to the into the objectives of the staff that work in and manage 393W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 394W the unit, as well as into departmental targets. Regular Mr. Wills: Ministers and senior officials at the Ministry updates on performance against these targets are provided are fully aware of its obligations under Freedom of to senior staff, members of the Ministry’s Corporate Information and Data Protection legislation, and expect Management Board, and Ministers. it to achieve the highest possible standards of compliance. Starting with the Unit’s formation in late 2008, a No bespoke Freedom of Information training has body of work has been undertaken to improve Freedom been provided to either Ministers or senior officials. of Information performance across the Ministry.Timeliness However, all members of the Ministry’s staff—including performance—the number of cases answered within the permanent secretary and the director general, statutory deadlines—has risen from 51 per cent. in democracy, constitution and law—are required to complete December 2008 to 77 per cent. at the end of October mandatory online training on the correct handling of 2009. We expect a further improvement when the figures information and ensuring data is appropriately protected for the period ending in December 2009 are available. in line with the requirements of the Data Protection Act. The training package exists in electronic form on a Data Protection: Freedom of Information password protected website accessible only to the Ministry’s staff, and to transfer it into a form appropriate for publication would incur disproportionate cost. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Ministers and senior officials are advised on a regular how many meetings there have been between his basis of the Ministry’s performance in these areas, as Department and the Information Commissioner’s well as receiving policy and legal advice in relation to Office to discuss his Department’s compliance with its individual cases where appropriate. obligations under data protection and freedom of information legislation in the last 12 months; when each such meeting occurred; and who attended in each David Kelly Death Inquiry case. [314697] Mrs. Lait: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr. Wills: Officials in the Data Access and Compliance for what reasons certain papers submitted to Lord Unit have met officials from the Information Hutton’s inquiry into the death of Dr. David Kelly are Commissioner’s Office on three occasions since the not to be disclosed until 70 years have elapsed. [314462] Unit was created in October 2008. Officials in the Ministry continue to have regular Mr. Straw: No determination has been made that the contact with the Information Commissioner’s Office, medical reports and photographs connected to the death both to discuss its overall performance in relation to its of Dr. David Kelly should be closed for 70 years. data protection and freedom of information obligations, Rather, Lord Hutton noted in his statement on Tuesday and in the course of the Commissioner’s investigations 26 January that he had requested that the post mortem in individual cases. examination report relating to Dr. Kelly not be disclosed for 70 years in view of the distress that could be caused Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to Dr. Kelly’s wife and daughters. what steps have been taken to ensure that outstanding The Ministry of Justice is now considering carefully freedom of information and subject access requests to the most appropriate course of action. his Department are answered within the statutory timescale; and which official in his Department has Debt Collection responsibility for advising Ministers on freedom of information. [314698] Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will publish the redacted elements of Mr. Wills: The creation of the Data Access and magistrates courts guidance to bailiffs on procedures Compliance Unit in October 2008 has allowed the for breaking into properties as a last resort. [314404] Ministry to make significant improvements to its Freedom of Information and Data Protection performance. The Bridget Prentice: There are currently legal proceedings Unit has taken forward a programme of wide-ranging between the Ministry of Justice, the Information work since its inception, including improving staff awareness Commissioner and another party on this subject. of the Ministry’s obligations under both pieces of legislation, and the extension of the network of staff responsible for handling requests within business areas. Departmental Housing Where appropriate Ministers receive advice in relation to individual cases from officials in the Ministry’s Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Information and Legal Directorates. Justice how many (a) empty and (b) occupied residential properties his Department owns; and what the (i) potential annual rental and (ii) total book value is of those (A) Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice empty and (B) occupied residential properties. [313794] what training has been provided to (a) him, (b) the Minister of State with responsibility for freedom of information and data protection, (c) the Permanent Mr. Wills: The Ministry of Justice does not own any Secretary and (d) the Director-General, Democracy, residential properties, however its agencies, HM Courts Constitution and Law on his Department’s Service and the National Offender Management Service responsibilities under freedom of information and data both own residential properties to support their operations. protection legislation; and if he will publish the written HM Courts Service owns 19 residential properties, material provided in relation to such training. [314699] made up of: 395W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 396W

Number of offenders sentenced, result and average custodial sentence Book value length (ACSL)1 for motoring offences resulting in death2, 2006-08 at 31 Rent Potential 2006 2007 2008 December received rent 2009 (£1,000 (£1,000 Total sentenced 299 318 275 Residential Number (£1,000) pa) pa) Discharge 0 1 0 Up for sale 2 250 0 1— Fine 2 4 7 Empty 2 411 0 6 Community sentence 8 9 2 Occupied 4 1,055 17 0 Suspended sentence 8 15 10 and rented Immediate custody 280 287 255 out Otherwise dealt with 1 2 1 Judges 11 14,554 0 1— ACSL 42.6 42.1 48.1 lodging (freehold) 1 ACSL(months) excludes life/indeterminate sentences. 2 Offences of causing death by dangerous driving, causing death by Total 19 16,271 17 6 careless or inconsiderate driving, causing death by careless driving 1 Not available for rent. when under the influence of drink or drugs causing death by driving: unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured drivers, causing death by aggravated The empty and occupied and rented out properties vehicle taking. are being held in connection with the construction of a Notes: new court scheme which is in the very early stages of 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. development. 2. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large Judges lodgings provide accommodation for judges scale recording system. on circuit duty. For security these lodgings cannot be Source: made available for wider rental. Where suitable alternative Justice Statistics—Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice rental properties are available they are used and surplus lodgings have been sold. Driving Offences: Alcoholic Drinks The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) owns 397 residential properties, made up of: Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Book value at how many (a) males and (b) females in each age group 31 December 2009 were prosecuted for speeding offences were over the Residential Number (£1,000) drink-drive limit in each of the last two years. [314011]

Operational use 88 10,300 Occupied 198 24,600 Claire Ward: Centrally held information does not Unoccupied 111 11,700 identify, of persons prosecuted for speed limit offences, those persons who were breath-tested at the time of the offence. The operational residential properties are currently used for office space, training and other operations. The To answer the question based on the number of NOMS figures do not include prisons or approved persons prosecuted for speed limit offences who were premises used to house offenders. also convicted for offences of driving after consuming alcohol would require manual intervention. It is not Unoccupied properties are no longer required for possible to provide an answer without incurring a NOMS operations and are currently being prepared for disproportionate cost. disposal. Occupied premises are provided to HM Prison Service personnel to meet operational requirements and the Legal Aid Scheme individual prison officers pay rental depending on their job grade. As these properties are not available for rental on the open market, NOMS does not have a Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for potential market rental value for them. Justice how many people have had a Legal Services Commission legal aid charge postponed and attached The balance sheets of NOMS and HM Courts Service to their property after a family proceeding in the last contain both freehold properties and those on finance three years. [314402] leases. For the purposes of this question we have included only freehold properties. Bridget Prentice: After preserving or recovering property in a family case with the help of legal aid, clients can Driving Offences ask to defer repayment of their legal aid costs, and instead register a charge on their property. There are 8,239 cases where a charge was attached to property in David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for the last three years and remains open (unpaid). Justice what the average length of sentence was in England and Wales in respect of convictions for Cases motoring offences which resulted in a fatality in each of 2006-07 2,050 the last three years. [314675] 2007-08 2,272 2008-09 3,917 Claire Ward: The requested information is shown in Total 8,239 the following table. 397W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 398W

Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for this view I have consulted the Electoral Commission, Justice if the Government will reduce the interest rate who agree that an increase in spending limits is not applied to legal aid charges to the Legal Services necessary at this point. I will be placing copies of both Commission to reflect changes in the Bank of England letters in the Library. base rate. [314405] Prosecutions: Television Bridget Prentice: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 2 February 2010, Official Report, column 263W. David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people in (a) each region of England and (b) Wales were (i) fined and (ii) prosecuted for National Standards for Enforcement Agents non-payment of television licence fees in each of the last three years. [314487] Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps he has taken to monitor the level of Claire Ward: The requested information is shown in compliance of (a) magistrates, (b) HM Courts Service the following tables. fines officers and (c) bailiff companies with the provisions on vulnerable situations of his Department’s National Total fines for TV licence in each region, 2006-08 Standards for Enforcement Agents. [314403] 2006 2007 2008 Bridget Prentice: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 27 January 2009, Official Report, North East 8,640 7,814 10,107 columns 377-78W. North West 25,079 24,839 23,578 I confirm that a protocol has been introduced setting Yorkshire and 12,663 13,561 8,254 out the procedure to be taken with vulnerable defaulters Humberside including the instruction not to take any action to levy distress without prior reference to the court where the East Midlands 8,126 9,477 10,566 individual falls into one of categories deemed as vulnerable. West Midlands 12,666 13,751 15,698 Complaints by members of the public about the conduct East of England 8,280 7,976 7,363 of the contractor must be reported to Her Majesty’s Courts Service regional contract managers, together London 14,845 17,860 15,642 with details of how those complaints have been dealt South East 7,459 8,423 10,117 with and resolved. These are reviewed as part of the contract management process. South West 6,627 7,100 7,465 Further reporting protocols now contained within Wales 9,600 9,313 8,332 the contracts strengthen the control and monitoring Notes: arrangements available to HMCS on contractor 1. The TV licensing provisions of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 performance. This includes quarterly and six-month were replaced by new provisions in the Communications Act 2003 assurance reporting. Within these reports each contractor which came into effect on 1 April 2004. 2. These are the numbers fined against for all offences under the will detail its procedures and processes and the agreed Wireless Telegraphy Act which mainly but not exclusively covers TV authorisation methods with each HMCS region and licensing offences. area for the operation of the contracts. 3. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, There is also a requirement for each contractor to the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large make an annual operation report reviewing their scale recording system. management of the contract. Combined, these reports Source: form the basis for the HMCS Director of Enforcement Justice Statistics Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice to make an annual report covering the operation of all regional contracts. Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for television licence evasion, by Government office region, England and The reports produced by the contractors at the six Wales, 2006-081, 2 month and yearly stages of the contract will be reviewed 20063 20074 20084 and reported on to the HMCS Compliance and Enforcement and main HMCS Management boards. North East 9,407 8,456 10,342 North West 27,153 26,657 25,536 Yorkshire and 14,283 14,820 13,080 Political Parties: Finance Humberside East Midlands 9,221 10,534 11,111 Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State West Midlands 14,234 15,147 17,425 for Justice whether he plans to make an order under East of England 9,642 9,145 8,458 section 76A of the Representation of the People Act London 19,308 22,791 19,583 1983 to vary the maximum amount of candidates’ South East 8,805 9,786 11,780 election expenses. [314942] South West 7,616 8,139 8,165 Total England 119,669 125,475 125,480 Mr. Wills: The Government do not intend to vary the Wales 10,461 10,073 9,064 maximum amount of candidates’ election expenses under Total Wales 10,461 10,073 9,064 section 76 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 Total England and 130,130 135,548 134,544 before the next parliamentary general election. In reaching Wales 399W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 400W

1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the Defendants prosecuted for no TV licence—2007 principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant Magistrates court Number of has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence office defendants Number of fines is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence Lisburn 387 308 selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is Dungannon 270 221 the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are Total 5,901 4,464 accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these Defendants prosecuted for no TV Licence—2008 data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care Magistrates court Number of should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their office defendants Number of fines inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Belfast 1,620 1,334 3 As well as television licence evasion, these data include proceedings Newtownards 264 212 for summary offences under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 to Downpatrick 116 97 1967. Craigavon 330 255 4 These figures relate to the offence of television licence evasion under the Communications Act 2003. Armagh 231 171 Source: Banbridge 76 53 Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. Omagh 154 98 These data are presented on the principal offence Strabane 75 51 basis: where an offender has been sentenced for more Antrim 105 75 than one offence the principal offence is the one for Londonderry 384 313 which the heaviest sentence was imposed; where the Enniskillen 125 87 same sentence has been imposed for two or more offences Coleraine 277 213 the principal offence is the one for which the statutory Newry 319 223 maximum is most severe. Limavady 102 72 Magherafelt 81 64 David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Ballymena 168 134 Justice how many people in Northern Ireland were (a) Bangor 150 100 prosecuted and (b) fined for non-payment of the Larne 67 53 television licence fee (i) in total, (ii) by local authority Lisburn 345 279 area and (iii) by constituency in each of the last three Dungannon 283 234 years. [314674] Total 5,272 4,118

Bridget Prentice: In 2008, 5,272 people in Northern Victim Support Schemes Ireland were prosecuted for non-payment of the television licence fee and 4,118 fines imposed. Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for In 2007, 5901 people were prosecuted and 4,464 fines Justice how much has been distributed from the Victims imposed. Fund in 2009-10; which groups have received money Corresponding information for 2006 is not available. from the fund for the provision of services to victims of (a) homicide and (b) hate crime in 2009-10; and what Information is not collected by local authority area plans he has for the distribution of monies from the or by constituency. However, the following table shows fund in 2010-11. [315346] information for 2007 and 2008 for magistrates courts across Northern Ireland: Claire Ward: The Victims Fund comprises three parts: £1.25 million for organisations supporting victims of Defendants prosecuted for no TV licence—2007 sexual violence; £0.25 million for organisations supporting Magistrates court Number of the bereaved relatives of homicide victims; and £0.25 office defendants Number of fines million for organisations supporting victims of hate Belfast 1,573 1,204 crime. Newtownards 188 154 In financial year 2009-10 the homicide and hate Downpatrick 136 110 crime sections were supplemented from within the Home Craigavon 330 264 Office budget by £73,000 and £59,500 following negotiations Armagh 181 127 with successful applicants. Banbridge 52 37 In 2009-10 a total of £1,892,254.69 was distributed Omagh 149 103 from the Victims Fund. Of this, £1,249,664 was distributed Strabane 91 69 to organisations supporting victims of sexual violence; Antrim 221 172 £333,101 to organisations supporting the bereaved relatives Londonderry 694 493 of homicide victims; and £309,489.69 to organisations Enniskillen 114 89 supporting victims of hate crime. Coleraine 305 233 The following organisations received money from the Newry 362 245 homicide section of the Victims Fund: Limavady 252 198 Magherafelt 94 74 £ Ballymena 262 186 Winston’s Wish 46,835 Bangor 147 115 Advocacy after fatal domestic 34,616 Larne 93 62 abuse 401W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 402W

Angela E. Smith: Any costs involved in the maintenance £ and improvement of the Cabinet Office estate are included Support against Murder and 27,850 in Cabinet Office accounts. manslaughter National Victims Association 73,800 MAMAA 75,000 Breast Cancer: Cleethorpes Damilola Taylor Trust 75,000 The following organisations received money from the Shona McIsaac: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet hate crime section of the Victims Fund: Office how many people resident in (a) Cleethorpes constituency, (b) North East Lincolnshire local authority £ area and (c) North Lincolnshire local authority area were diagnosed with breast cancer in each year since Age Concern Camden 23,110 1997. [315380] Community Security Trust 54,354 GIRES 10,110 Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls North Herts People First 17,788 within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Redbridge Equalities Council 24,038.69 I have asked the authority to reply. Royal Mencap Kirklees 4,000 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 2 February 2010: Stonewall 25,000 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Stop Hate UK 71,600 have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many Torfaen People First 29,064 people resident in (a) Cleethorpes constituency, (b) North East Voice UK 50,425 Lincolnshire local authority area and (c) North Lincolnshire local authority area were diagnosed with breast cancer in each All sections of the homicide fund will be administered year since 1997. [315380] from the Office of Criminal Justice Reform (OCJR) in The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases of breast 2010-11. The bidding round for distribution of the fund cancer (incidence) are for the year 2007. Please note that these opened on 29 January. The homicide and hate crime numbers may not be the same as the number of people diagnosed sections will be distributed following assessment of bids with cancer, because one person may be diagnosed with more by OCJR and the Home Office respectively. The sexual than one cancer. violence section will be distributed on behalf of OCJR The table attached provides the numbers of newly diagnosed by an expert intermediary organisation, to be chosen cases of breast cancer for (a) Cleethorpes parliamentary constituency, from within the sexual violence sector. (b) North East Lincolnshire unitary authority and (c) North Lincolnshire unitary authority, for each year from 1997 to 2007. Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1. Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of breast cancer,1 Justice what telephone helplines his Department and its persons,2 (a) Cleethorpes parliamentary constituency, (b) North East predecessors have provided for victims of murder and Lincolnshire unitary authority and (c) North Lincolnshire unitary authority,3 1997 to 20074 manslaughter in each of the last 10 years. [315350] Persons Claire Ward: Since 1999, core funding has been provided North East North to SAMM (Support After Murder and Manslaughter) Cleethorpes Lincolnshire Lincolnshire who operate a national helpline for relatives bereaved 1997 57 104 92 by murder and manslaughter. 1998 65 117 69 In addition, my Department provides funding to 1999 54 103 127 Victim Support. In each of the last ten years their 2000 104 120 133 annual grant supports their telephone helpline which 2001 63 120 113 offers emotional support and, practical advice to victims 2002 75 126 95 of crime including relatives bereaved by homicide. 2003 73 106 150 On 26 October 2009 the Ministry of Justice launched 2004 63 106 146 an advice helpline to provide relatives bereaved by homicide 2005 75 130 135 legal advice on personal and social issues. 2006 70 103 89 Since 2004-05 the Victims Fund has provided grant 2007 68 102 132 funding to a number of specialist organisations working 1 Breast cancer is coded as C50 in the International Classification of to assist relatives bereaved by murder and manslaughter. Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). This funding has supported telephone advice offered by 2 Around 99 per cent. of breast cancers cases are in women. 3 Based on boundaries as of 2009. the organisations Winston’s Wish, Advocacy after Fatal 4 Domestic Abuse (AAFDA), and Mothers Against Murder Newly diagnosed cases registered in each calendar year. and Aggression (MAMAA). Cancer: South Yorkshire

CABINET OFFICE Jeff Ennis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 10 Downing Street: Repairs and Maintenance (1) how many patients in (a) Barnsley and (b) Doncaster have been diagnosed with melanoma in each Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet of the last 10 years; [314634] Office how much has been spent on Project George; (2) how many patients in (a) Barnsley and (b) and what works have been completed under the project. Doncaster have been diagnosed with lung cancer in [312303] each of the last 10 years. [314635] 403W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 404W

Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases of melanoma within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. and lung cancer (incidence) are for the year 2007. Please note that I have asked the Authority to reply. these numbers may not be the same as the number of people diagnosed with cancer, because one person may be diagnosed Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 28 January 2010: with more than one cancer. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent questions asking: The tables attached provide the number of newly diagnosed cases of (1) melanoma (Table 1), (2) lung cancer (Table 2) in 1) How many patients in (a) Barnsley and (b) Doncaster have (a) Barnsley and (b) Doncaster metropolitan districts, from 1997 been diagnosed with melanoma in each of the last 10 years. to 2007. [314634] 2) How many patients in (a) Barnsley and (b) Doncaster have been diagnosed with lung cancer in each of the last 10 years. [314635]

Table 1: Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of melanoma1, Barnsley and Doncaster metropolitan districts2, 1997 to 20073 Persons 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Barnsley 15 14 20 8 10 21 8 16 22 33 40 Doncaster 17 20 14 36 25 44 25 42 41 47 46 1 Melanoma skin cancer is coded as C43 in the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). 2 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 3 Newly diagnosed cases registered in each calendar year. Table 2: Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of lung cancer1, Barnsley and Doncaster metropolitan districts2, 1997 to 20073 Persons 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Barnsley 196 208 171 205 184 170 184 179 190 193 224 Doncaster 232 241 236 263 234 270 257 244 253 275 258 1 Lung cancer is coded as C34 in the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). 2 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 3 Newly diagnosed cases registered in each calendar year.

Census The Advancement of Religion for the Public Benefit—Section G (December 2008) Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office The Advancement of Education for the Public Benefit—Section G what directions Ministers have given to the UK (December 2008) Statistics Authority on the 2011 Census under section 2 Public Benefit and Fee-Charging—Section E (December 2008) of the Census Act 1920, as amended. [315269] As to the methodology for the first round of assessments, we described this in a letter which we sent at the beginning of the Angela E. Smith: No directions have been given to the process to the twelve charities involved and also published on our UK Statistics Authority on the 2011 Census under website. “Public Benefit Assessments: Emerging findings for charity trustees from the Charity Commission’s public benefit assessment section 2 of the Census Act 1920, as amended. work: 2008-09” also explained our methodology. I have arranged for these and the following additional documents, which further Charities: Standards explain our policy and methodology, to be placed in the Library: Public benefit: statement of the basis for the Charity Commission’s Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office role and actions (December 2008); if she will place in the Library a copy of the Charity the individual reports from the first round of public benefit Commission’s (a) policy on and (b) methodology for assessment (July 2009); and applying the public benefit test to charities. [315207] open letter from the Chair and Chief Executive of the Charity Commission (July/August 2009). Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls All of this information is also publicly available in the public within the responsibility of the Charity Commission. I benefit area of the Charity Commission’s website at: have asked the Commission to reply. www.charitycommission.gov.uk Letter from Andrew Hind, dated February 2010: I hope this is helpful. As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, I have been asked to respond to your Parliamentary Question (315207) requesting that a copy of our policy on, and methodology for, Charity Commission: Public Relations applying the public benefit test to charities is placed in the House of Commons Library. Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office The Charities Act 2006 gives the Commission a statutory duty pursuant to the answer of 1 December 2009, Official to publish guidance on the public benefit requirement. So far, and Report, column 694W, on the Charity Commission: following extensive consultation, we have carried out this duty by publishing the guidance listed below which, in each case, includes public relations, what the nature was of the training a section which specifically sets out our approach to assessing that mandate provided. [314847] public benefit: Charities and Public Benefit—section H (January 2008) Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls The Prevention or Relief of Poverty for the Public Benefit— within the responsibility of the Charity Commission. I section G (December 2008) have asked the Commission to reply. 405W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 406W

Letter from Andrew Hind, dated February 2009: Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, I have within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. been asked to respond to your written Parliamentary Question I have asked the Authority to reply. (314847) on the nature of the training provided by Mandate to Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 2 February 2010: the Charity Commission. The training was to assist witnesses in their preparation for the Commission’s appearance before the As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Public Administration Select Committee on 9 October 2008. I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many hope this is helpful. deaths of individuals with no fixed abode were recorded in each of the last 24 months. (315194) Civil Servants: Pensions Deaths of people with no fixed abode occurring in 2009 are not yet available. Mr. Paul Murphy: To ask the Minister for the The Office for National Statistics collects information on Cabinet Office what amendments to the Civil Service deaths in England and Wales as they are registered. Deaths of Compensation Scheme will come into force on 1 April people with no fixed abode will generally be registered by a 2010. [314554] coroner rather than a medical practitioner, since all deaths that may be due to self neglect must be referred to a coroner. Tessa Jowell: I propose to make amendments to the The table attached provides the number of deaths of people Civil Service Compensation Scheme shortly, to introduce with no fixed abode occurring in England and Wales, by month, new terms from 1 April 2010. The new terms will be fair for the years 2007 and 2008 (the latest year available). and affordable, and, following effective discussions with Table 1. Number of deaths of people with no fixed abode, England and the trade unions will take particular account of the Wales, 2007-081 position of the lowest paid. I intend to lay the amendments 2007 2008 before the House very shortly. They will, as the Prime Minister pledged last year, save up to £500 million over January 7 8 the next three years. February 5 14 March 5 7 Civil Servants: West Midlands April 13 6 May 11 9 Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office June 6 8 how many job vacancies have been advertised July 14 6 internally under the Civil Service West Midlands Pilot; August 11 4 and what the (a) job title, (b) department and (c) September 10 7 salary range of each was. [315320] October 7 7 Angela E. Smith: The latest data, up to the end of November 5 8 December 2009, show that 2,252 vacancies have been December 6 7 advertised internally under the Civil Service West Midlands 1 Figures are for deaths occurring in each calendar month. Pilot. The pilot does not record data for each advertised Deaths: Torbay vacancy on job title and salary range. We can confirm the Departments formally monitored within the pilot Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet are HMRC, DWP, HO, MOJ, MOD and DEFRA, Office what the 10 most frequently recorded causes of though some other civil service organisations in the death were for (a) men, (b) women, (c) boys under the region have also advertised vacancies under the scheme. age of 18 years and (d) girls under the age of 18 years To date, advertised vacancies have been at civil service in Torbay constituency in each of the last 10 years. grades AA, AO, EO, HEO, SEO, grade 7 and grade 6 [314609] with salaries being commensurate with the relevant pay scale for those grades. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls The breakdown of vacancies by Department and within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. grade for the period of the pilot until end of December I have asked the authority to reply. 2009 is: Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 29 January 2010: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Department AA AO EO HEO SEO G7 G6 have been asked to reply to your recent question asking what the ten most frequently recorded causes of death were for (a) men, HMRC 4 13 41 46 20 15 10 (b) women, (c) boys under the age of 18 years and (d) girls DWP 5 159 392 95 43 18 2 under the age of 18 years in Torbay constituency in each of the HO8267736215 1last ten years. (314609) MOJ3589389510The tables attached present the ten most frequently recorded 1 DEFRA 2 14 20 35 31 19 2 causes of death , for (a) males aged 18 years and over (Table 1) and (b) females aged 18 years and over (Table 2), in Torbay MOD 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— parliamentary constituency, for the years 2001 to 2008 (the latest 1 MOD does not provide data in this way; however it is understood to year available). follow a similar pattern across grades at about 50 vacancies per month. Due to the small numbers of deaths of (c) boys under the age of 18 years and (d) girls under the age of 18 years, equivalent Death: Homelessness information for frequently recorded causes of death could not be produced. Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Individual causes of death are coded by ONS using the Office how many deaths of individuals with no fixed International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). abode were recorded in each of the last 24 months. The causes of death shown in the tables are groups of codes [315194] designed for the tabulation of deaths according to ’main’ causes2. 407W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 408W

Equivalent information is not readily available for years before 2 Griffiths, C, Rooney, C, and Brock, A. (2005) ‘Leading causes of 2001, when an earlier version of the International Classification death in England and Wales - how should we group causes?’ of Diseases was in use. 1 In some years, more than 10 causes of death are presented where the numbers of deaths were the same as those for the 10th most frequent cause.

Table 1: Most frequent causes of death classified according to the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10), males aged 18 years and over, Torbay parliamentary constituency, 2001-081,2,3 Years when this was a main cause of death for males Cause of death4 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 ICD-10 codes

Aortic aneurysm and ————— * * * 171 dissection Cerebrovascular diseases ********160-169 Chronic lower respiratory ******** J40-J47 diseases Cirrhosis and other diseases of — — — * * — — — K70-K76 liver Dementia and Alzheimer’s ********F01,F03,G30 disease Diseases of the urinary system * *——————N00-N39 Heart failure and * * * * — — * — 150-151 complications and ill-defined heart disease Influenza and pneumonia ******** J10-J18 Ischaemic heart diseases ********120-125 Malignant neoplasm (cancer) ********C18-C21 of colon, sigmoid, rectum and anus Malignant neoplasm (cancer) ———————— C25 of pancreas Malignant neoplasm (cancer) ******** C61 of prostate Malignant neoplasm (cancer) ******* C33-C34 of trachea, bronchus and lung Malignant neoplasms (cancer) —— *— *—— * C81-C96 of lymphoid, haematopoietic and related tissue Parkinson’s disease —————— *— G20 1 Most frequent causes of death recorded as the underlying cause in male deaths registered in the year in question. These causes accounted for 59 per cent of all male deaths in Torbay constituency between 2001 and 2008. 2 Cause of death in England and Wales is defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). 3 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 4 The words in brackets have been added for clarity and are not part of the International Classification of Diseases. Table 2. Most frequent causes of death classified according to the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10), females aged 18 years and over, Torbay constituency, 2001-081,2,3 Years when this was a main cause of death for females Cause of death4 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 ICD-10 codes

Aortic aneurysm and ——————— * 171 dissection Cerebrovascular diseases ******** 160 Chronic lower respiratory ********J40-J47, F01, diseases F03 Dementia and Alzheimer’s ******** G30 disease Diabetes *——————— E10-E14 Diseases of the urinary **———***N00-N39 system Heart failure and ******** 150-151 complications and ill-defined heart disease Influenza and pneumonia ******** J10-J18 Ischaemic heart diseases *******— 120-125 Malignant neoplasm (cancer) *******—C18-C21 of colon, sigmoid, rectum and anus Malignant neoplasm (cancer) —***—*—* C56 of ovary Malignant neoplasm (cancer) ******** C33-C34 of trachea, bronchus and lung 409W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 410W

Table 2. Most frequent causes of death classified according to the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10), females aged 18 years and over, Torbay constituency, 2001-081,2,3 Years when this was a main cause of death for females Cause of death4 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 ICD-10 codes

Malignant neoplasms (cancer) ******** C50 of breast Malignant neoplasms (cancer) —————*——— C81-C96 of lymphoid, haematopoietic and related tissue 1 Most frequent causes of death recorded as the underlying cause in female deaths registered in the year in question. These causes accounted for 58 per cent of all female deaths in Torbay constituency between 2001 and 2008. 2 Cause of death in England and Wales is defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). 3 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 4 The words in brackets have been added for clarity and are not part of the International Classification of Diseases.

Departmental Public Consultation Angela E. Smith: The Government are committed to providing a range of support to increase the ability of Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet all types of third sector organisations, including social Office how many citizens’ juries or summits have been enterprises and organisations employing young people, hosted by her Department since October 2008; on what to bid for and deliver Government contracts. date each event took place; and which Ministers were We have therefore funded the national programme present at each event. [314593] for third sector commissioning which provides a range of training to improve and increase the commissioning Tessa Jowell: The Cabinet Office commissioned Central of public services from the third sector. Office of Information (COI) to run a citizens’ deliberative discussion in January 2009, to inform “New Opportunities”, The Government have also established the MISC 37 the Social Mobility White Paper launched that same Cabinet Committee to investigate barriers to third sector month. Approximately 40-50 members of the public organisations securing and delivering specific public attended the discussion. service contracts. In addition Futurebuilders investments have increased Departmental Work Experience the ability of third sector organisations to better bid for, win and deliver Government contracts now and in the Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet future. In 2009 alone Futurebuilders investees won over Office with reference to the answer of 11 November 230 public service delivery contracts. 2009, Official Report, column 411W, on departmental To ensure that SMEs have equal opportunities to bid work experience, what the average pro rata salary paid for Government business an OGC/BIS programme, Access to interns in the Cabinet Office and Downing Street for All, is currently implementing the recommendations was in the latest year for which figures are available. made in the Glover Committee report “Accelerating the [312439] SME Economic Engine”. Tessa Jowell: The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral Home Care Services: Finance part of the Cabinet Office. Interns are recruited directly by Business Units. Information on role and salary level Margaret Moran: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet is not held centrally and could be provided only at Office what estimate she has made of the cost of disproportionate cost. implementing the provisions of the Personal Care at Government Departments: Energy Home Bill in the first 12 months of implementation. [315087] Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent discussions she has had with the Sustainable Phil Hope: I have been asked to reply. Development Commission on the estimated annual cost I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to the hon. of energy used on the Government estate. [315560] Member for Eddisbury the (Mr. O’Brien) on 7 December 2009, Official Report, column 166W. Angela E. Smith: The Minister for the Cabinet Office has not had any discussions with the Sustainable Hotels Development Commission on the estimated annual cost of energy used on the Government estate. However, Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office officials within my Department work closely with the how many separate bookings for stays at five star or Sustainable Development Commission to improve our above hotels were made through the Expotel contract environmental performance. by (a) the Cabinet Office, (b) the Charity Commission and (c) the Central Office of Information in the last Government Departments: Procurement year for which figures are available; and what the cost of such bookings was. [315275] Margaret Moran: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what steps she plans to take to encourage (a) Angela E. Smith: The information is as follows: social enterprises, (b) small and medium-sized enterprises (a) In the period January 2009 to December 2009 (inclusive), and (c) organisations employing young people to bid 55 bookings were made through the Cabinet Office’s Expotel for Government contracts; and if she will make a statement. contract, for stays at five star hotels. This represents 3.3 per cent. [315085] of all hotel bookings for that period. 411W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 412W

(b) No five star hotels were booked by Charity Commission Third Sector has recently committed to host and chair a staff through the Expotel contract in the period 1 January to regular working group of the regional social enterprise 31 December 2009. networks and the Regional Development Agencies which (c) No five star hotels were booked by the Central Office of will aim to share information and best practice on Information staff through the Expotel contract in the period supporting social enterprise. 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009. Illegal Immigrants Personal Income: North West

Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Mr. Crausby: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet how many staff her Department has appointed who Office what her most recent estimate is of the ratio of later were discovered to be illegal immigrants since female to male earnings in the North West. [314507] 2005. [315230] Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Angela E. Smith: Our records show that no illegal within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. immigrants have been appointed at Cabinet Office since I have asked the Authority to reply. 2005. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 29 January 2010: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Non-profit Making Associations have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking what the latest estimate is of the ratio of female to male Margaret Moran: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet earnings in the North West. (314507) Office whether her Department monitors the Levels of earnings are estimated from the Annual Survey of performance of social enterprise networks in each Hours and Earnings (ASHE), and are provided for all employees region. [315100] on adult rates of pay, whose pay for the survey period was not affected by absence. The ASHE, carried out in April each year, is the most comprehensive source of earnings information in the Angela E. Smith: The Cabinet Office does not monitor United Kingdom. the performance of the social enterprise networks in each region. The Office of the Third Sector does, however, I attach a table showing the ratio of female to male earnings in 2009 for median hourly earnings excluding overtime for all and work closely with the regional social enterprise networks full-time employees on adult rates of pay, whose pay for the as well as the national social enterprise representative survey period was not affected by absence, in the North West. body, the Social Enterprise Coalition, of which the Estimates of the ratio of female to male earnings for part-time regional networks are all members. The Office of the employees are not reliable and are therefore not included.

Ratio of female to male earnings for employee jobs1: The North West 2009 Median hourly earnings excluding overtime Men Women Ratio of female to male earnings All Full-time Part-time All Full-time Part-time All Full-time

North West 11.58 12.14 7.47 9.14 10.90 7.46 0.79 0.90 1 Employees on adult rates whose pay for the survey period was not affected by absence. As at April 2009. Source: Annual Survey of hours and earnings, Office for National Statistics.

Skin Cancer: Milton Keynes Table 1. Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of melanoma1, adults, Milton Keynes unitary authority2, 1997 to 20073 Persons Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many cases of melanoma in (a) adults and 1997 25 (b) children have been reported in Milton Keynes in 1998 16 each year since 1997. [314282] 1999 26 2000 30 Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls 2001 30 within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. 2002 29 I have asked the Authority to reply. 2003 21 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 28 January 2010: 2004 36 2005 30 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many 2006 34 cases of melanoma in (a) adults and (b) children have been 2007 26 reported in Milton Keynes in each year since 1997 [314282]. 1 Melanoma skin cancer is coded as C43 in the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases of melanoma 2 Based on boundaries as of 2009 (incidence) are for the year 2007. Please note that these numbers 3 Newly diagnosed cases registered in each calendar year may not be the same as the number of people diagnosed with cancer, because one person may be diagnosed with more than one Stress cancer. The table attached provides the number of melanoma cases reported in (a) adults aged 16 years and over, in Milton Keynes Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet unitary authority, from 1997 to 2007. There were no cases of Office if she will place in the Library a copy of the melanoma in (b) children aged under 16 years in Milton Keynes advice issued to staff of her Department on stress unitary authority between 1997 to 2007. recognition and management. [314526] 413W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 414W

Angela E. Smith: The Cabinet Office is committed to The information requested is given in the table attached. The the health and well-being of its staff and has policies, figures are from the Labour Force Survey (LFS) household procedures and support in place to identify, manage datasets for the three months ending June for each year requested. and reduce workplace stress. As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject to a margin of uncertainty as different samples give different I have placed a copy of the Department’s Stress results. Recognition and Management Guide in the Library. Table 1: Number of unemployed working-age1 adults with children2— Unemployment: Lone Parents United Kingdom, April to June Unemployed parents (thousand)

Paul Holmes: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2005 349 Office how many lone parents were unemployed in 2006 417 each year since 2007. [314666] 2007 389 2008 433 Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. 2009 636 1 Women aged 16 to 59, men aged 16 to 64. I have asked the Authority to reply. 2 Dependent children; these are children who are under 16 or aged 16 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 29 January 2010: to 18 unmarried and in full time education. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Source: have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question on how Labour Force Survey Household dataset many lone parents were unemployed in each year since 2007. (314666) Unemployment: Torbay The information requested is given in the table attached. The figures are from the Labour Force Survey (LFS) household datasets for the three months ending June 2007 to 2009. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject Office how many and what proportion of jobseeker’s to a margin of uncertainty as different samples give different allowance claimants in each constituency in the South results. West had been claiming that allowance for (a) up to Table 1: Number of unemployed working-age1 lone parents2 United three, (b) between three and six, (c) between six and Kingdom, April to June 12 and (d) between 12 and 24 months in each month Thousands since September 2009; and if she will make a statement. Unemployed lone parents [314616]

2007 113 2008 139 Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls 2009 169 within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. 1 Women aged 16-59, men aged 16-64. I have asked the Authority to reply. 2 Lone parents with dependent children; these are children who are Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 28 January 2010: under 16 or aged 16-18 unmarried and in full-time education. Source: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Labour Force Survey household dataset have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many and what proportion of jobseeker’s allowance claimants Unemployment: Parents in each constituency in the South West had been claiming that allowance for (a) up to three, (b) between three and six, (c) between six and 12 and (d) between 12 and 24 months in each Paul Holmes: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet month since September 2009. (314616) Office how many working age adults with children were The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles the number unemployed in each year since 2005. [314502] of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) from the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. Table 1 shows the number of computerised Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls claims of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) for people, aged 16 or over within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. resident in each parliamentary constituency in the South West, by I have asked the Authority to reply. duration of the claim. Table 2 shows the percentage of all claimants in each constituency by duration of the claim. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 29 January 2010: National and local area estimates for many labour market As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question on how count are available on the NOMIS website at many working-age adults with children were unemployed in each year since 2005. (314502) http://www.nomisweb.co.uk

Table 1: Number of persons claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance by duration1 of claim Number September 2009 October 2009 Over 52 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 weeks Over 13 Over 26 weeks Up to weeks weeks up to Up to weeks weeks up to 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total Duration of claim: weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants

Bath 795 285 295 95 1,495 755 325 275 105 1,475 Bournemouth 905 425 455 120 1,915 915 430 415 140 1,915 East 415W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 416W

Table 1: Number of persons claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance by duration1 of claim Number September 2009 October 2009 Over 52 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 weeks Over 13 Over 26 weeks Up to weeks weeks up to Up to weeks weeks up to 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total Duration of claim: weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants

Bournemouth 935 445 475 115 1,980 970 420 475 125 2,005 West Bridgwater 960 395 375 100 1,850 975 380 340 110 1,815 Bristol East 1,455 750 800 265 3,295 1,420 710 780 300 3,230 Bristol North West 1,145 600 670 210 2,655 1,150 535 645 220 2,580 Bristol South 1,325 690 780 200 3,010 1,280 665 705 215 2,885 Bristol West 1,255 490 480 195 2,455 1,210 495 475 200 2,415 Cheltenham 1,020 555 690 305 2,635 995 525 675 335 2,595 Christchurch 550 225 230 60 1,075 510 245 220 70 1,055 Cotswold 540 285 260 90 1,195 535 250 270 95 1,170 Devizes 905 420 425 135 1,925 880 420 410 160 1,910 East Devon 515 205 195 45 975 510 185 180 60 945 Exeter 1,095 455 430 170 2,165 1,065 410 390 170 2,055 Falmouth and 955 365 340 145 1,830 985 365 340 150 1,865 Camborne Forest of Dean 705 370 445 145 1,695 675 340 405 185 1,620 Gloucester 1,320 725 830 340 3,235 1,335 720 815 385 3,280 Kingswood 1,045 500 475 130 2,160 1,050 480 450 130 2,120 Mid Dorset and 610 270 230 50 1,175 565 250 220 65 1,110 North Poole North Cornwall 890 350 330 100 1,690 1,015 340 315 115 1,805 North Devon 690 255 205 60 1,220 685 230 185 70 1,170 North Dorset 490 215 185 35 930 455 190 170 50 875 North Swindon 1,140 735 755 190 2,860 1,180 635 745 195 2,800 North Wiltshire 805 410 400 105 1,745 750 385 370 135 1,665 Northavon 665 295 275 50 1,300 645 275 260 55 1,255 Plymouth, 1,270 535 635 200 2,740 1,295 525 620 230 2,765 Devonport Plymouth, Sutton 1,500 620 800 265 3,350 1,360 625 770 285 3,205 Poole 740 380 310 70 1,510 755 355 315 85 1,515 Salisbury 720 315 290 85 1,420 720 340 295 95 1,460 Somerton and 625 255 255 60 1,205 625 235 245 55 1,165 Frome South Dorset 665 275 260 85 1,300 735 265 265 90 1,370 South East 770 300 250 80 1,415 775 295 245 80 1,400 Cornwall South Swindon 1,355 790 885 270 3,355 1,290 715 875 285 3,225 South West Devon 580 250 205 65 1,115 565 220 200 60 1,065 St Ives 695 305 290 125 1,440 790 280 270 135 1,495 Stroud 885 460 420 125 1,905 820 465 400 130 1,830 Taunton 810 415 390 60 1,695 760 400 370 70 1,620 Teignbridge 855 350 275 90 1,590 790 350 270 100 1,535 Tewkesbury 745 375 395 150 1,690 735 360 375 155 1,655 Tiverton and 710 270 255 95 1,345 695 265 245 100 1,320 Honiton Torbay 1,260 565 540 250 2,645 1,310 535 525 270 2,675 Torridge and West 715 330 385 140 1,590 710 290 330 145 1,500 Devon Totnes 735 270 300 100 1,415 725 255 245 115 1,355 Truro and St 905 340 310 115 1,700 915 340 320 120 1,725 Austell Wansdyke 600 250 250 55 1,170 570 240 230 65 1,115 Wells 715 295 300 70 1,395 690 285 270 85 1,345 West Dorset 415 165 125 35 750 440 160 125 35 765 Westbury 945 470 475 185 2,095 920 440 475 195 2,055 Weston-Super- 950 460 530 150 2,115 970 475 490 160 2,125 Mare Woodspring 575 230 195 30 1,035 545 205 165 40 960 417W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 418W

Table 1: Number of persons claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance by duration1 of claim Number September 2009 October 2009 Over 52 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 weeks Over 13 Over 26 weeks Up to weeks weeks up to Up to weeks weeks up to 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total Duration of claim: weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants

Yeovil 845 315 320 25 1,515 800 320 260 40 1,430

Total 44,410 20,395 20,785 6,550 93,065 43,920 19,550 19,800 7,155 91,390

Number November 2009 December 2009 Over 52 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 weeks Over 13 Over 26 weeks weeks weeks up to weeks weeks up to Up to 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total Up to 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total Duration of claim: weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants

Bath 725 335 250 115 1,445 705 325 240 115 1,405 Bournemouth East 905 415 390 160 1,885 855 415 365 175 1,830 Bournemouth 985 410 445 150 2,010 925 440 415 170 1,965 West Bridgwater 990 375 310 125 1,810 1,050 410 315 130 1,920 Bristol East 1,395 695 755 330 3,195 1,355 720 730 350 3,185 Bristol North West 1,075 515 570 260 2,450 1,060 575 535 260 2,460 Bristol South 1,230 685 650 240 2,825 1,190 680 630 265 2,790 Bristol West 1,185 540 440 225 2,425 1,025 530 425 225 2,245 Cheltenham 945 510 590 375 2,485 905 475 545 390 2,375 Christchurch 575 255 215 80 1,130 560 250 205 85 1,110 Cotswold 565 260 260 100 1,205 490 275 225 100 1,110 Devizes 935 420 405 180 1,985 845 440 355 195 1,880 East Devon 560 195 150 60 975 540 215 140 65 970 Exeter 1,125 400 330 180 2,055 1,030 425 335 170 1,990 Falmouth and 1,010 385 320 160 1,910 1,030 425 310 180 1,975 Camborne Forest of Dean 695 355 355 215 1,645 695 335 325 235 1,610 Gloucester 1,285 685 730 405 3,140 1,270 655 690 425 3,075 Kingswood 915 480 440 165 2,010 850 485 410 185 1,945 Mid Dorset and 615 230 205 65 1,130 570 250 180 80 1,095 North Poole North Cornwall 1,370 330 295 145 2,160 1,425 415 290 165 2,320 North Devon 780 225 160 65 1,240 855 245 145 70 1,325 North Dorset 495 195 165 55 920 475 185 160 60 890 North Swindon 1,150 570 700 245 2,705 1,075 525 635 265 2,540 North Wiltshire 755 385 335 165 1,665 710 370 310 180 1,595 Northavon 600 260 240 75 1,185 555 255 210 80 1,115 Plymouth, 1,245 505 570 275 2,690 1,065 555 495 275 2,495 Devonport Plymouth, Sutton 1,320 620 675 330 3,110 1,120 615 590 345 2,830 Poole 755 325 310 100 1,495 775 325 295 115 1,525 Salisbury 720 330 270 115 1,445 635 315 255 125 1,340 Somerton and 575 265 205 60 1,115 565 275 200 75 1,130 Frome South Dorset 905 285 240 110 1,550 970 315 240 115 1,655 South East 850 325 225 90 1,505 845 335 215 95 1,505 Cornwall South Swindon 1,250 675 790 330 3,105 1,150 605 705 350 2,870 South West Devon 520 215 195 60 1,005 440 180 170 60 870 St Ives 995 295 275 145 1,740 1,075 330 280 150 1,870 Stroud 810 450 380 150 1,810 770 410 380 160 1,740 Taunton 720 340 365 90 1,535 730 345 355 110 1,555 Teignbridge 825 320 225 115 1,515 785 320 215 120 1,465 Tewkesbury 690 345 350 155 1,580 625 305 340 150 1,460 Tiverton and 660 270 215 110 1,270 635 290 195 115 1,250 Honiton 419W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 420W

Number November 2009 December 2009 Over 52 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 weeks Over 13 Over 26 weeks weeks weeks up to weeks weeks up to Up to 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total Up to 13 up to 26 up to 52 104 Total Duration of claim: weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants weeks weeks weeks weeks claimants

Torbay 1,325 565 515 265 2,700 1,245 600 520 275 2,680 Torridge and West 825 305 275 180 1,610 800 340 265 185 1,625 Devon Totnes 775 290 215 120 1,415 770 305 210 140 1,445 Truro and St 1,065 315 300 120 1,835 1,090 370 255 135 1,885 Austell Wansdyke 560 240 205 80 1,105 530 250 185 85 1,070 Wells 720 300 245 100 1,375 730 330 245 110 1,425 West Dorset 445 170 125 35 785 470 195 130 45 850 Westbury 880 435 445 210 1,985 810 420 425 220 1,890 Weston-Super- 970 465 445 195 2,105 1,000 490 430 220 2,165 Mare Woodspring 580 200 155 40 985 535 220 140 55 960 Yeovil 695 315 235 45 1,295 705 335 225 50 1,315

Total 44,645 19,380 18,255 8,075 91,360 43,030 19,795 17,190 8,610 89,680 1 Data on duration of claim is only available for computerised claims, which account for 99.7 per cent. of all claims. Note: Data rounded to nearest five. Source: Jobcentre Plus Administrative System Table 2: Proportion of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance by duration1 of claim Percentage September 2009 October 2009 Over 13 Over 26 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 Over 52 Up to 13 weeksupto weeksupto weeks up to Up to 13 weeks up to weeks up to weeks up to Duration of claim: weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks 104 weeks weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks 104 weeks

Bath 53 19 20 6 51 22 19 7 Bournemouth East 47 22 24 6 48 23 22 7 Bournemouth West 47 22 24 6 48 21 24 6 Bridgwater 52 21 20 6 54 21 19 6 Bristol East 44 23 24 8 44 22 24 9 Bristol North West 43 23 25 8 45 21 25 9 Bristol South 44 23 26 7 44 23 24 8 Bristol West 51 20 20 8 50 21 20 8 Cheltenham 39 21 26 12 38 20 26 13 Christchurch 51 21 21 6 49 23 21 7 Cotswold 45 24 22 8 46 21 23 8 Devizes 47 22 22 7 46 22 22 8 East Devon 53 21 20 5 54 20 19 6 Exeter 51 21 20 8 52 20 19 8 Falmouth and 52201985320188 Camborne Forest of Dean 42 22 26 9 42 21 25 11 Gloucester 41 22 26 11 41 22 25 12 Kingswood 48 23 22 6 50 23 21 6 Mid Dorset and 52232055123206 North Poole North Cornwall 53 21 20 6 56 19 17 7 North Devon 57 21 17 5 58 20 16 6 North Dorset 53 23 20 4 52 22 20 6 North Swindon 40 26 26 7 42 23 27 7 North Wiltshire 46 24 23 6 45 23 22 8 Northavon 51 23 21 4 52 22 21 5 Plymouth, 46202374719228 Devonport Plymouth, Sutton 45 19 24 8 43 20 24 9 Poole 49 25 21 5 50 23 21 6 421W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 422W

Table 2: Proportion of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance by duration1 of claim Percentage September 2009 October 2009 Over 13 Over 26 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 Over 52 Up to 13 weeksupto weeksupto weeks up to Up to 13 weeks up to weeks up to weeks up to Duration of claim: weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks 104 weeks weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks 104 weeks

Salisbury 51 22 21 6 49 23 20 7 Somerton and Frome 52 21 21 5 53 20 21 5 South Dorset 51 21 20 7 54 20 20 7 South East Cornwall 55 21 18 6 55 21 18 6 South Swindon 40 24 26 8 40 22 27 9 South West Devon 52 23 18 6 53 21 19 6 St Ives 48 21 20 9 53 19 18 9 Stroud 46 24 22 7 45 26 22 7 Taunton 48 24 23 4 47 25 23 5 Teignbridge 54 22 17 6 52 23 18 7 Tewkesbury 44 22 23 9 44 22 23 9 Tiverton and 53201975320198 Honiton Torbay 482121949202010 Torridge and West 452124947192210 Devon Totnes 52 19 21 7 54 19 18 9 Truro and St Austell 53 20 18 7 53 20 19 7 Wansdyke51222155121216 Wells 51 21 22 5 51 21 20 6 West Dorset 55 22 17 5 58 21 16 5 Westbury 45 22 23 9 45 22 23 10 Weston-Super-Mare 45 22 25 7 46 23 23 8 Woodspring 55 22 19 3 57 22 17 4 Yeovil 56 21 21 2 56 23 18 3

Percentage November 2009 December 2009 Over 13 Over 26 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 Over 52 Up to 13 weeksupto weeks up to weeks up to Up to 13 weeks up to weeks up to weeks up to Duration of claim: weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks 104 weeks weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks 104 weeks

Bath 50 23 17 8 50 23 17 8 Bournemouth East 48 22 21 8 47 23 20 10 Bournemouth West 49 20 22 8 47 22 21 9 Bridgwater 55 21 17 7 55 21 17 7 Bristol East 44 22 24 10 43 23 23 11 Bristol North West 44 21 23 11 43 23 22 11 Bristol South 44 24 23 9 43 25 23 10 Bristol West 49 22 18 9 46 24 19 10 Cheltenham 38 21 24 15 38 20 23 16 Christchurch 51 23 19 7 50 23 18 8 Cotswold 47 22 22 8 44 25 21 9 Devizes 47 21 20 9 45 24 19 10 East Devon 57 20 16 7 56 22 15 7 Exeter 55 20 16 9 52 22 17 9 Falmouth and 53 20 17 9 52 22 16 9 Camborne Forest of Dean 42 22 22 13 43 21 20 15 Gloucester 41 22 23 13 41 21 23 14 Kingswood 46 24 22 8 44 25 21 10 Mid Dorset and 55 21 18 6 52 23 17 7 North Poole North Cornwall 63 15 14 7 61 18 13 7 North Devon 63 18 13 5 65 19 11 6 North Dorset 54 21 18 6 54 21 18 7 North Swindon 42 21 26 9 42 21 25 10 North Wiltshire 46 23 20 10 45 23 19 12 Northavon 51 22 20 7 50 23 19 8 423W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 424W

Percentage November 2009 December 2009 Over 13 Over 26 Over 52 Over 13 Over 26 Over 52 Up to 13 weeksupto weeks up to weeks up to Up to 13 weeks up to weeks up to weeks up to Duration of claim: weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks 104 weeks weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks 104 weeks

Plymouth, 46 19 21 10 43 22 20 11 Devonport Plymouth, Sutton 42 20 22 11 40 22 21 12 Poole 51 22 21 7 51 21 20 8 Salisbury 50 23 19 8 48 24 19 9 Somerton and 52 24 18 6 50 25 18 7 Frome South Dorset 58 18 15 7 59 19 15 7 South East 57 22 15 6 56 22 14 6 Cornwall South Swindon 40 22 25 11 40 21 25 12 South West Devon 52 21 20 6 51 21 20 7 St Ives 57 17 16 8 58 18 15 8 Stroud 45 25 21 8 44 24 22 9 Taunton 47 22 24 6 47 22 23 7 Teignbridge 54 21 15 8 54 22 15 8 Tewkesbury4422221043212410 Tiverton and 52 21 17 9 51 23 16 10 Honiton Torbay 49 21 19 10 46 23 19 10 Torridge and West 51 19 17 11 49 21 17 12 Devon Totnes 55 21 15 9 53 21 15 10 Truro and St 58 17 16 7 58 20 14 7 Austell Wansdyke 51 22 19 8 50 24 17 8 Wells 52 22 18 8 51 23 17 8 West Dorset 57 22 16 5 56 23 16 6 Westbury 44 22 22 11 43 22 23 12 Weston-Super- 46 22 21 9 46 23 20 10 Mare Woodspring 59 20 16 4 56 23 15 6 Yeovil 54 25 18 3 54 25 17 4 1 Data on duration of claim is only available for computerised claims, which account for 99.7 per cent. of all claims. Note: Data rounded to nearest five. Source: Jobcentre Plus Administrative System

TRANSPORT £50 fines £80 fines Total

2006 23400 85920 109320 2007 37150 143120 180270 British Transport Police: Fixed Penalties 2008 37900 131600 169500 2009 42500 146640 189140

Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department Information on the split between penalty notices for Transport how much has been raised by each category issued in England and those issued in Wales is not held of fixed penalty notice issued by the British Transport centrally. Police in (a) England and (b) Wales since 2006. Bus Services: Concessions [314346] Shona McIsaac: To ask the Minister of State, Department Chris Mole [holding answer 29 January 2010]: The for Transport (1) how many national concessionary bus British Transport Police (BTP) have powers to issue two passes for those over the age of 60 years have been types of fixed penalty, fixed penalty notices (FPNs) and issued to residents of (a) Cleethorpes constituency, (b) penalty notices for disorder (PNDs). FPNs are primarily North East Lincolnshire local authority area and (c) for road traffic offences; the BTP rarely prosecute for North Lincolnshire local authority area in each year these offences and, where they do, they do so by summons since they were introduced; [315240] rather than fixed penalty. (2) how many national concessionary bus passes for The amounts received by the BTP in respect of PNDs people with disabilities have been issued to residents of issued in England and Wales are as follows. (a) Cleethorpes constituency, (b) North East 425W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 426W

Lincolnshire local authority area and (c) North sell information on a commercial basis to (i) companies Lincolnshire local authority area in each year since or individuals in the private sector and (ii) other such passes were introduced. [315241] organisations. [313270]

Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport is not Chris Mole: Agencies/non-departmental public bodies responsible for issuing passes and so does not maintain (NDPBs) that have Crown status, make most of their records of how many passes individual authorities have information available for free re-use under the PSI issued. Click-Use Licence. Government trading funds are able Cleethorpes is part of the North East Lincolnshire under their trading fund status to charge for the services county concessionary travel scheme. The last information they provide in order to cover their costs. This covers held by the Department was that as of 12 January 2010, information and its supply provided to other public the North East Lincolnshire county scheme had issued bodies, commercial organisations and individuals. In 4,1667 smartcard concessionary passes. As of the same common with other government policy, some information date, the North Lincolnshire county scheme had issued is sold as priced publications. 32,903 smartcard concessionary passes. In both cases, Following are details about selling of information by this includes passes issued to disabled people as well as Department for Transport agencies and NDPBs: those aged 60 and over. The Department only holds Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) headline figures for number of passes issued. The MCA does sell information to companies and members of the public. For example, on request, Consultants: Fees and Charges information from the MCA’s Public Register of UK ships and information that relates to search and rescue Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department incidents from the MCA’s systems is sold, all in compliance for Transport what estimate he has made of the likely with the Data Protection Act. level of spending by his Department on consultancy Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) fees in the next five years; and what projects he anticipates VCA has the remit to meet its full costs from earned employing consultants on. [314339] income, and operates in a competitive market. VCA Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not sells type approval legislation and its associated have an estimate of spending on consultancy fees in the interpretations. next five years, as the Department’s business plan for Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) 2010-11 has yet to be finalised, and departmental budgets DVLA is a Government trading fund which has for 2011-12 onwards will be set at the next spending authority to charge for the services it provides in order review. to cover its costs. This covers information supplied to However, the Department is committed to contributing commercial organisations and individuals. to the Smarter Government savings announced in the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) 2009 pre-Budget report, which include cutting consultancy VOSA does not currently sell information on a spend by 50 per cent. by 2012-13. commercial basis. Some information has been provided to the agency’s commercial customers on a cost recovery Departmental Billing basis. The agency is assessing the opportunity and business case for further use of its information assets. Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister of State, Department Government Car and Despatch Agency (GCDA) for Transport what estimate he has made of the average The GCDA does not sell information on a commercial length of time taken by (a) his Department and (b) its basis to companies or individuals in the private sector agencies to pay invoices from (i) small and medium- and other organisations. sized enterprises and (ii) all creditors in the last The Driving Standards Agency (DSA) 12 months. [315137] DSA licenses its theory test item banks and hazard Chris Mole: The Prime Minister announced in October perception film clips to all sectors under the Information 2008 that all central Government Departments will aim Fair Trader Scheme, regulated by the Office of Public to pay invoices within 10 days. The Department and its Sector Information. The Stationery Office Ltd. (a private agencies commenced reporting of 10 day payment sector publisher) currently publishes DSA official learning performance in January 2009. materials and “The Official Highway Code”. DSA receives In January 2009, 61.19 per cent. of invoices were paid a royalty on sales as part of the contract price. within 10 days. The latest available data are for December The Highways Agency (HA) 2009, when 92.62 per cent. of invoices were paid within The HA charges an access fee for video images and 10 days. This means that payment performance has stills from the road network videos to various media increased by 31.43 per cent. points over this period. companies, e.g. the BBC. The charge is minimal and is We do not differentiate payments by supplier size as based on recovery of the costs of supplying the images. we have determined to pay all suppliers within 10 days. Non-departmental Public Bodies (NDPBs) The Department for Transport is also responsible for Departmental Disclosure of Information 12 NDPBs. Of these, four are advisory or tribunal bodies; four are Executive NDPBs which do not sell David Davis: To ask the Minister of State, Department information on a commercial basis; four are classified for Transport which (a) agencies and (b) non-departmental as public corporations. These are the Civil Aviation public bodies for which his Department is responsible Authority (CAA); the Northern Lighthouse Board and 427W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 428W

Trinity House; Trust Ports. The public corporations Railways: Bus Services receive most of their income from selling goods and services rather than from grant or voted supply. Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what information his Department holds Departmental Manpower on the number of rail replacement bus services that have been in operation for longer than (a) one week, Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, (b) one month and (c) one year; and what the cost has Department for Transport how many employees in (a) been of providing such services. [314347] his Department and (b) each of its agencies are in transition prior to being managed out; how long on Chris Mole [holding answer 29 January 2010]: Rail average the transition window between notification and services can be subject to amendment due to planned exit has been in (i) his Department and (ii) each of its infrastructure improvements or maintenance works agencies in each of the last five years; what estimate he undertaken by Network Rail, especially at weekends has made of the salary costs of staff in transition in and rail replacement bus services will often be provided each such year; and what proportion of employees in as required to maintain passenger journey opportunities. transition were classed as being so for more than six Where substantial programmes of these works are being months in each year. [313234] undertaken, these may, on occasion, take longer than one week. Chris Mole: The Department for Transport and its Responsibility for the provision of these services lies agencies has not managed out any staff in financial with train operators and the Department does not hold years 2005-06 to 2008-09 inclusive. In the financial year detailed data on the numbers or costs of such rail 2009-10 there are three staff in transition prior to being replacement bus services. redeployed within the civil service. The average time for There are a very small number of buses providing rail being in transition is two months. The average cost in replacement services on the national network, as part of this financial year is £28,640. There are no staff in the specification for franchised passenger services provided transition over six months. by certain rail operators. The cost of these services are First Capital Connect: Industrial Action included within the overall financial settlement between the Department and the relevant train operator. The Anne Main: To ask the Minister of State, Department exception to this is the provision of a rail replacement for Transport if he will estimate the cost to commuters bus service between Ealing Broadway and Wandsworth of the recent industrial action by drivers on First Capital Road, which has been operated since December 2008. Connect Thameslink services. [314242] In relation to the monthly costs, I refer the hon. Member to the approximate January 2009 figures set out in the Chris Mole: This information is not collected by the answer of 4 February 2009, Official Report, columns Department for Transport. 1192-3W. Lorry Drivers Railways: Franchises

Ian Stewart: To ask the Minister of State, Department Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what estimate he has made of the number for Transport what estimate he has made of the financial of heavy trucks and lorry drivers (a) employed and (b) costs incurred by his Department when re-tendering self-employed in the UK; what estimate he has made of each rail franchise since 2005. [314278] the average hours worked by each category of driver in the latest period for figures are available; and what Chris Mole: The total costs incurred by the Department estimate he has made of the average (i) hourly and (ii) for Transport in designing and tendering rail franchises weekly earnings of heavy truck and lorry drivers in the from 2005-09 were £33.8 million, which comprises the following: latest period for which figures are available. [314739] Departmental staff, administration and non-franchise specific Paul Clark: The following table gives the numbers of adviser costs for undertaking the specification, procurement and 1 review of franchising documentation over this five year period heavy goods vehicle (HGV ) drivers who are (a) employed was £15.3 million. To allocate such costs by franchise would incur and (b) self employed, their hours worked, and hourly disproportionate cost. and weekly earnings during September 2009 in the External adviser costs for the franchises let by the United Kingdom. Department 2005-09 were as follows: 1 In the ’Freight Transport by Road’ industry class. £ million HGV drivers1 1 Employed Self employed Southeastern 2.0 Thameslink1 1.4 Number 109,113 16,417 Greater Western1 1.3 Usual paid hours worked per 51 50 South Western 2.2 week (mean) London Midland 2.9 Average gross weekly pay (£) 493 n/a East Midlands 2.6 Average gross hourly pay (£) 9.59 n/a Cross Country 3.2 n/a = Pay information is only available for employees Intercity East Coast (2007) 1.3 1 This includes LGV drivers and other drivers under the SOC2000 (Standard Occupational Classification 2000) 8211 category. Southern 1.6 Source: 1 Replacement initiated by the Strategic Rail Authority, concluded by ONS Labour Force Survey, July-September 2009 the Department, the costs for which are identified. 429W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 430W

Railways: Tickets Paul Clark: The information requested is shown in the following table. These figures include all killed and Mr. Bacon: To ask the Minister of State, Department seriously injured casualties in these accidents, not just for Transport what recent steps his Department has occupants of the specified vehicles. taken to direct train operating companies to offer Reported killed or seriously injured road casualties in accidents passengers the option of purchasing multiple tickets involving cars and motorcycles: GB 2006-08 for their journeys. [300530] Accident year 2006 2007 2008 Chris Mole: The Department for Transport requires Number of killed or that operators sell combinations of tickets where these seriously injured are requested, though there is no obligation to offer casualties in: them as there is an almost infinite number of permutations All accidents involving a 26,713 25,468 23,724 of fares combinations. It is for the train operating car companies themselves to consider whether and to what All accidents involving a 6,992 7,247 6,457 extent they should promote the practice of combining motorcycle two or more tickets. All accidents involving a 4,390 4,589 3,991 car and a motorcycle Mr. Bacon: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent steps his Department has Percentage change from taken to direct train operating companies to offer previous year: passengers the cheapest possible fare for their journeys, All accidents involving a -1.7 -4.7 -6.8 irrespective of the number of tickets required to obtain car such a fare. [300531] All accidents involving a 0.0 3.6 -10.9 motorcycle Chris Mole: A requirement already exists under the All accidents involving a -2.4 4.5 -13.0 Ticketing and Settlement Agreement for train operators car and a motorcycle accurately to sell purchasers the most appropriate fare The Department for Transport consulted in 2009 on for the end to end journey they described, stressing a new road safety strategy for the next two decades, A either cost or convenience as the passenger determines. Safer Way: Consultation on making Britain’s Roads the Safest in the World. This consultation identified protecting Mr. Bacon: To ask the Minister of State, Department motorcyclists as one of a number of key road safety for Transport what recent steps his Department has challenges and proposed specific measures, as well as taken to raise awareness among rail passengers of the initiatives to tackle safety on rural roads, where motorcyclists financial benefits of purchasing multiple tickets for the are at particular risk. The new road safety strategy will same journey. [300532] be published following the completion of the North Review into drug and drink driving law. Chris Mole: Such promotional activity is for the train operators themselves or for bodies such as the two The Government’s Motorcycling Strategy sets out a statutory organisations representing passengers, Passenger range of measures to improve the safety of all powered Focus and London TravelWatch, or other non-statutory two-wheel users. It was published in February 2005 and organisations involved in consumer issues. a revised action plan was issued in June 2008. This includes THINK! publicity for powered two wheeler and other road users, improvements to rider training, a Railways: Yorkshire and the Humber safer road environment and safer vehicles and equipment. We are currently working with stakeholders on revising Shona McIsaac: To ask the Minister of State, Department the Motorcycle Strategy. for Transport what plans there are to introduce direct train services from London to (a) Lincoln and (b) Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department Cleethorpes. [315246] for Transport (1) how many road traffic accidents in Torbay constituency involved loss of life in each of the Chris Mole: Consultation for the May 2011 East last five years; [314613] Coast timetable is under way. It is currently envisaged (2) how many road traffic accidents there were in that there will be a train every two hours from London (a) Devon and (b) Torbay constituency in each of the Kings Cross to Lincoln and vice versa. As part of the last five years; how many such accidents involved (i) consultation and evaluation process for the new Intercity motorcyclists and (ii) cyclists in each such year; and East Coast franchise, due to start in autumn 2011, the how many accidents of each type resulted in loss of life Department for Transport will investigate the viability in each such year. [314715] of specifying that some services are extended to and from Cleethorpes. Paul Clark: The information requested is shown in the following table: Roads: Accidents Reported personal injury road accidents in Devon county and Torbay parliamentary constituency1: 2004-08 Mr. Crausby: To ask the Minister of State, Department Accident year for Transport what progress has been made in reducing 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 the number of people killed and seriously injured in road traffic accidents involving cars and motorcyclists Devon county over the last three years. [314503] All accidents 3,797 4,002 3,822 3,782 3,191 431W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 432W

Reported personal injury road accidents in Devon county and Torbay Reported personal injury road accidents and fatalities, involving at parliamentary constituency1: 2004-08 least one driver1 aged under 21 years: 1997 to 2008 Accident year Suffolk Bury St. Edmunds2 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Accidents Fatalities Accidents Fatalities

Ail accidents 556 560 469 513 465 1997 379 7 72 2 involving a 1998 377 3 70 1 motorcycle2 1999 386 6 47 1 All accidents 279 282 275 260 259 2000 375 12 62 2 involving a pedal cycle2 2001 384 8 55 0 2002 377 5 48 1 All fatal accidents 41 54 41 53 40 2003 398 9 69 0 All fatal accidents 1517516112004 367 7 45 0 involving a 2005 423 4 71 1 motorcycle2 2006 367 17 58 0 All fatal accidents 123042007 372 5 53 0 involving a pedal 2008 345 3 45 0 cycle2 1 Car, goods vehicle, bus and coach drivers. 2 Based on 2004 parliamentary constituency boundaries. Torbay parliamentary constituency Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Minister of State, Department All accidents 347 328 301 291 283 for Transport how many road traffic (a) accidents and All accidents 53 52 36 49 42 (b) fatalities have occurred (i) on the A14 and (ii) involving a elsewhere in Suffolk between the hours of 8pm and 8am motorcycle2 in each year since 1997. [314877] All accidents 25 14 22 17 24 involving a pedal cycle2 Paul Clark: The information requested is shown in the following table. All fatal accidents 31222Reported personal injury road accidents1 and fatalities2 occurring All fatal accidents 00000 between the hours of 20.00 and 08.00: 1997 to 2008 involving a Suffolk (excluding A14) A14 (Suffolk section) 2 motorcycle Accidents Fatalities Accidents Fatalities All fatal accidents 00001 involving a pedal 1997 519 15 29 3 cycle2 1998 526 4 23 1 1 Based on 2004 parliamentary constituency boundaries. 2 Includes 1999 518 22 26 1 accidents involving both motorcycles and pedal cycles. There were 2000 502 21 33 4 two such accidents in Devon in 2008. 2001 553 18 39 5 Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2002 543 19 50 3 for Transport what the accident cluster sites are in the 2003 566 20 36 1 (a) St. Edmundsbury Borough Council and (b) Mid 2004 518 16 37 3 Suffolk District Council area. [314866] 2005 530 19 42 2 2006 484 19 37 2 Paul Clark: There is no standard definition for an 2007 480 13 39 3 accident cluster site. The assessment of local accident 2008 431 13 29 0 cluster sites is a matter for the relevant local highway 1 Reported accidents in which at least one person was injured. authorities. 2 Casualties in road accidents who were fatally injured.

Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many road traffic (a) accidents and for Transport how many road traffic accidents have (b) fatalities there were involving drivers under the age occurred in Suffolk on each day of the week in each of 21 years in (i) Bury St. Edmunds constituency and year since 1997. [314878] (ii) Suffolk in each year since 1997. [314874]

Paul Clark: The information requested is shown in Paul Clark: The information requested is given in the the following table. following table:

Reported personal injury road accidents in Suffolk by day of week: 1997 to 2008 Number of accidents Year of accident Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Total

1997 308 328 357 323 385 295 228 2,224 1998 328 337 331 310 374 330 241 2,251 1999 339 340 327 327 362 314 289 2,298 2000 309 319 334 355 427 327 241 2,312 433W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 434W

Reported personal injury road accidents in Suffolk by day of week: 1997 to 2008 Number of accidents Year of accident Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Total

2001 382 348 338 328 386 332 242 2,356 2002 335 328 314 375 380 321 247 2,300 2003 356 343 308 356 393 298 287 2,341 2004 289 310 349 374 353 301 244 2,220 2005 337 319 361 325 377 283 235 2,237 2006 313 283 306 313 390 265 217 2,087 2007 320 330 309 297 341 263 216 2,076 2008 302 289 346 326 341 236 221 2,061

Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Minister of State, Department Paul Clark: The information requested is given in the for Transport how many road traffic accidents have following table: occurred on the A14 in Suffolk on each day of the week in each year since 1997. [314879]

Reported personal injury road accidents on the A14 in Suffolk by day of week: 1997 to 2008 Number of accidents Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Total

1997 16 19 22 15 16 20 20 128 1998 18 16 20 11 22 18 18 123 1999 22 20 17 14 17 16 16 122 2000 19 27 24 28 14 15 11 138 2001 17 17 22 23 21 22 16 138 2002 26 28 20 20 27 21 15 157 2003 22 22 23 23 14 11 13 128 2004 17 20 25 23 21 20 17 143 2005 18 23 33 16 28 15 17 150 2006 21 22 24 12 20 11 9 119 2007 13 23 18 24 21 13 14 126 2008 25 15 24 20 25 4 13 126

Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, Department Paul Clark: The information requested is given in the for Transport how many road traffic accidents occurred following table: in Milton Keynes on average on each day of the week in each year since 1997. [315368]

The average number of reported personal injury road accidents in Milton Keynes (unitary authority) on each day of the week: 1997 to 2008 Average number of accidents Total number of Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday accidents

1997 2.79 2.71 3.34 2.54 2.96 2.48 1.90 977 1998 2.75 3.29 2.73 2.81 2.87 1.98 2.35 979 1999 2.83 2.85 2.58 2.71 3.36 2.31 1.65 954 2000 2.90 2.90 2.71 3.02 3.65 2.26 1.91 1,011 2001 2.45 2.71 2.83 2.44 3.10 2.29 2.02 930 2002 2.17 2.21 2.50 2.62 3.06 2.12 1.87 862 2003 2.67 2.44 1.98 2.56 2.62 2.10 1.60 832 2004 2.37 2.31 2.35 2.49 2.75 1.98 1.69 834 2005 2.33 2.63 2.60 2.65 3.06 1.77 1.62 868 2006 2.25 2.87 2.58 2.44 3.25 2.08 1.89 904 2007 2.26 2.40 2.21 2.37 2.42 2.08 1.56 798 2008 2.04 2.28 2.42 2.19 2.38 1.96 1.31 763

Rolling Stock: Procurement Chris Mole: We intend to place appropriate financial information from the contract with Agility Trains which Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department is currently commercially confidential, in the public for Transport what estimate he has made of the level of domain following financial close. financial saving that would result from the cancellation of the Inter-City Express Programme. [314341] 435W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 436W

Speed Limits: Greater London OLYMPICS Olympic Games 2012: Apprentices Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what estimate he has made of the number of speed cameras in (a) the London borough of Bexley Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Minister for the Olympics and (b) London in (i) 1997 and (ii) 2009. [314762] how much has been spent on the apprenticeship scheme associated with the London 2012 Olympics. Paul Clark: The Department for Transport only holds [310361] information about the number of safety camera sites operating within the National Safety Camera Programme Kevin Brennan: I have been asked to reply. for England and Wales which started in 2001 and ended The Department and the Department for Children, on 31 March 2007. There were 294 speed camera sites Schools and Families expect to spend over £1 billion on (including average speed cameras) operating in London apprenticeships this year. The total cost of delivering in 2001 and 439 when the programme ended in 2007. apprenticeships associated with the London 2012 Olympics Since 1 April 2007 the deployment of safety cameras is not available. Training costs of apprenticeship frameworks has been the responsibility of individual local partnerships. funded through the National Apprenticeship Service Separate information for each London borough is not and associated with the Olympics are not separately held by the Department, but may be held by the London identifiable from those not connected with the Olympics. Safety Camera Partnership along with details regarding Olympic development apprenticeships are also being the current number of sites. supported by a number of other partners including the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA), ConstructionSkills Transport: Finance and individual colleges and training providers. The ODA has contributed £275,000 towards the apprenticeship Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department programme, while ConstructionSkills will be providing for Transport if he will place in the Library a copy of an employer support contribution of £319,000 over a any projects his Department has considered cancelling two year programme through the National Construction in each of the last five years, together with any calculations College. of the estimated costs or savings likely to result from each. [314342]

Chris Mole: The Department for Transport routinely CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES reviews the business cases of its projects at a number of pre-defined stages in their development, in accordance GCSE: Disadvantaged with project management best practice. Projects are reviewed at each stage on the basis of their projected Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for benefits, value for money and affordability. A project is Children, Schools and Families how many and what therefore not regarded as either ‘approved’ or ‘cancelled’ proportion of white (a) boys and (b) girls eligible for until a final decision stage is reached. free school meals at the end of key stage 4 did not achieve an A* to C grade at GCSE in (i) English, (ii) mathematics, (iii) history, (iv) French and (v) physics in (A) the earliest year and (B) the most recent year for PRIME MINISTER which figures are available. [310105] Transcription Services Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 11 January 2010]: Pupil level attainment data by free school meal Mr. Hands: To ask the Prime Minister (1) how much eligibility and ethnicity is only available from 2003 10 Downing Street spent on transcription services to onwards. The information requested is presented in the each supplier in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) following table and is for maintained schools only. 2009-10 to date; [305824] (2) what transcripts have been provided for 10 Downing Subject Number of white pupils1 Percentage of white pupils Street by Global Lingo since March 2009; what each eligible for free-school eligible for free-school transcript’s date of production was; and what the cost meals entered for subject meals entered for subject not achieving a GCSE not achieving a GCSE was to the public purse of each transcript; [305825] grade A*-C grade A*-C (3) on what contractual basis Global Lingo provide Boys Girls Boys Girls transcription services to 10 Downing Street; [305826] (4) what system was in place for the provision of 2003 transcripts of 10 Downing Street events before March English 19,586 16,046 76.8 61.7 2009. [305827] Mathematics 21,837 21,423 81.8 81.5 History 3,631 3,656 71.5 67.9 Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. French 7,391 8,011 86.5 75.5 The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral part of Physics 119 131 32.6 43.1 Cabinet Office. Information relating to expenditure incurred on transcription services is not held centrally and therefore 20092 is available only at disproportionate cost. English 15,398 13,245 69.8 57.4 The Cabinet Office does not have any contractual Mathematics 14,748 15,766 65.2 68.4 agreements with Global Lingo. History 2,791 2,557 64.5 58.7 437W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 438W

(3) how many unique visitors have been received by Subject Number of white pupils1 Percentage of white pupils eligible for free-school eligible for free-school the Parent Know How online directory in each month meals entered for subject meals entered for subject since its creation; [309521] not achieving a GCSE not achieving a GCSE (4) how much has been spent on the Parent Know grade A*-C grade A*-C How (a) publications, (b) video and audio content Boys Girls Boys Girls and (c) social networking and virtual offices in each French 1,450 2,019 63.6 57.7 year since the inception of that service; [309522] Physics 164 145 17.5 19.0 (5) how much has been paid to external consultants 1 Figures for 2003 are based on pupils aged 15 and 2009 figures are and advisers for work relating to the Parent Know based on pupils at the end of Key Stage 4. How service in each month since the inception of that 2 Figures for 2009 are provisional. service. [309523] Source: National Pupil Database Dawn Primarolo: Under our Parent Know How Parents: Advisory Services programme we are funding seven third sector organisations to provide helpline support for parents in England. Mr. Willetts: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Management data, including the number of telephone Schools and Families (1) how many telephone calls have calls received and answered by the helplines, were collected been (a) received and (b) answered by the Parent on a quarterly basis in the first year (1 April 2008-31 Know How helplines in each month since such helplines March 2009). In the current year, we are now collecting were established; [309519] this data on a monthly basis. The following table shows (2) how much has been spent on creating and a breakdown of the number of recorded calls received maintaining the Parent Know How online directory and answered by each helpline between 1 April 2008 and website; [309520] and 30 November 2009.

2008-09 Recorded calls received Advisory Centre Contact a Children’s Family Rights Young Helpline for Education Family Legal Centre Group Gingerbread Parentline Plus Minds

Q1 33,395 4,361 4,978 6,498 2,544 47,033 2,502 Q2 10,669 6,598 6,752 5,560 2,923 40,140 2,018 Q3 15,249 4,575 7,070 4,211 2,434 39,266 2,437 Q4 21,298 5,815 9,008 6,957 3,095 39,430 2,868 Totals 80,611 21,349 27,808 23,226 10,996 165,869 9,825 Overall total 339,684

2009-10: Recorded calls received to 30 November Advisory Centre Contact a Children’s Family Rights Parentline Helpline for Education Family Legal Centre Group Gingerbread Plus Young Minds

April 7,476 1,427 2,043 1,861 847 12,322 599 May 7,637 1,329 1,819 2,087 724 13,511 678 June 6,359 1,336 1,938 2,219 363 11,970 778 July 4,202 1,165 2,420 1,857 920 13,169 904 August 1,023 1,361 1,188 1,145 857 11,420 526 September 3,578 1,428 2,066 41,562 1,019 12,768 795 October 4,006 1,418 2,342 1,057 1,030 12.064 914 November 3,918 1,572 1,915 1,292 970 11,466 823 Totals 38,199 11,036 15,731 13,0806 730 98,690 6,017 Overall total 189,483

2008-09: calls answered Advisory Centre Contact a Children’s Family Rights Young Helpline for Education Family Legal Centre Group Gingerbread Parentline Plus Minds

Q1 1,903 2,051 1,291 875 1,376 26,967 1,206 Q2 1,521 3,182 1,501 906 1,317 23,086 1,123 Q3 1,741 2,401 1,554 996 1,094 21,738 1,380 Q4 2,798 2,421 1,740 1,412 1,395 21,914 1,626 Totals 7,963 10,055 6,086 4,189 5,182 93,705 5,335 Overall total 132,515

2009-10: Calls answered by 30 November Advisory Centre Contact a Children’s Family Rights Young Helpline for Education Family Legal Centre Group Gingerbread Parentline Plus Minds

April 700 709 551 396 350 6,806 339 May 760 755 722 364 295 7,342 309 June 1,063 972 945 337 115 7,056 392 439W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 440W

2009-10: Calls answered by 30 November Advisory Centre Contact a Children’s Family Rights Young Helpline for Education Family Legal Centre Group Gingerbread Parentline Plus Minds

July 897 713 628 309 409 7,226 452 August 360 710 751 227 335 7,124 256 September 1,186 734 906 362 617 6,703 442 October 938 728 806 382 573 6,965 440 November 1,069 712 725 344 660 6,799 460 Totals 6,973 6,033 6,034 2,721 3,354 56,021 3,090 Overall total 84,226

We do not have details on the number of unique £ visitors using the Parent Know How Directory since it does not have its own website. The Directory is published June 2008 530,748 on various websites that are used by parents, including July 2008 408,478 Directgov, DadTalk and Parentline Plus. The number August 2008 495,923 of hits on the system that feeds data to all the sites that September 2008 428,055 publish the Parent Know How Directory currently averages October 2008 340,361 52,000 each day. In the last financial year (2008-09) November 2008 154,646 £6,627,000 was spent on the Directory—which includes December 2008 119,266 £5.65 millon in grants to local authorities to enable January 2009 143,440 them to develop their own local databases of family February 2009 151,894 service information. In this financial year (2009-10) we March 2009 199,822 anticipate spending £1,500,000. April 2009 196,782 A range of organisations are funded under the Parent May 2009 161,776 Know How programme to deliver different services to June 2009 189,816 support parents. July 2009 172,173 At any time these individual organisations may be August 2009 162,932 delivering that support via (a) publications, (b) video September 2009 142,853 and audio content or (c) social networking—as well as October 2009 135,585 telephone helplines and websites. We do not hold the November 2009 123,740 information to accurately disaggregate the spending on Total 5,100,008 each of these activities from the overall funding for each of these organisations. But the table below sets out the Pre-School Education: Finance costs for these activities, for each year from April 2008 where this can be clearly identified from the information held. Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much his Department spent 2008-09 on extending the pre-school entitlement to two year-olds £ in the latest year for which figures are available; and if Publications 60,824 he will make a statement. [304202] Video and audio content 46,616 Social networking and virtual 4,155,298 Dawn Primarolo: Funding for the two-year-old offer offices of free early education and child care is provided to local authorities as a ring-fenced block of the Sure 2009-10: (1 April-14 December 2009) Start, Early Years and Childcare Grant. The latest year £ for which audited spend is currently available is 2007-08. Publications 93,349 The spend for 2007-08 was £10,421,842. This was for Video and audio content 159,933 the 32 local authorities in wave one of the programme. Social networking and virtual 3,877,881 The allocations for 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11 are offices shown in the following table. The table as follows sets out how much has been paid Three year allocations for the two-year-old early learning and child to external consultants and advisers each month since care block of the Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare Grant Two-year-old early learning the Parent Know How programme started in 2008: and child care allocations (£)

£ 2008-09 16,994,418 2009-10 58,203,890 April 2008 408,384 2010-11 66,756,807 May 2008 433,334

3MC Ministerial Corrections3 FEBRUARY 2010 Ministerial Corrections 4MC Ministerial Corrections The exchange was as follows:

Miss Begg: The problem is that organisations such as Wednesday 3 February 2010 the Royal National Institute for Blind People feel that the provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act HEALTH 2005 to which the Minister referred are unenforceable because access to information is classed as an auxiliary Departmental Public Expenditure aid and service. I hope that my hon. Friend will look Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Health favourably on the suggestion that the Equality Bill how much his Department spent per capita in (a) needs a separate clause to make these provisions absolutely England and (b) Buckinghamshire in each of the last clear. Will she also confirm that trying to solve this three years. [302152] problem by means of a judicial review would not be the way forward? [Official Report, 30 November 2009, Vol. 501, c. 531W.] Letter of correction from Mr. Mike O’Brien: An error has been identified in the written answer Maria Eagle: The requirements of the current Disability given to the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham Discrimination Act are enforceable, and they can be (Mrs. Gillan) on 30 November 2009. I am sorry that in enforced in appropriate circumstances. However, we the table relating to per capita spend the two figures for want public authorities to take a leading role and to the year 2006-07 were incorrect. lead by example in providing accessible information to The correct answer is: those with visual impairments and others. In that respect, I hope that the House authorities themselves will consider Mr. Mike O’Brien: The amount spent per capita in whether refusing to allow a visually impaired total in England by all primary care trusts (PCTs) and parliamentarian a Braille copy of a Bill is really helping by Buckinghamshire PCT, in each of the last three that parliamentarian to do his job. Should we not be years, is shown in the following table. leading by example in this respect? I believe that we should be, and I hope that the House authorities will £ reconsider that decision. 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07 [Official Report, 28 January 2010, Vol. 504, c. 943.] Buckinghamshire PCT 1,251 1,198 1,121 England 1,499 1,428 1,315 I would like to clarify that no Member of either House has requested a Braille copy of the Equality Bill and therefore that no such request has been refused by WOMEN AND EQUALITY either House. Any impression I gave that this was the Equality Bill (Access to Information) case was a result of a misunderstanding by my officials that made its way into my brief. Each House provides Letter of correction from Maria Eagle: support for disabled Members in a variety of ways, The oral response given to the hon. Member for having regard to their individual needs. The suggestion Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) on 28 January 2010 included that the authorities of either House have refused reference to a Braille copy of the Equality Bill. requests of this kind is unfounded.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 3 February 2010

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 283 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Criminal Justice and Policing (Devolution)...... 283 Security Situation...... 287 Decommissioning ...... 288 Fuel Smuggling ...... 291 Paramilitary Groups ...... 290 PRIME MINISTER ...... 291 PSNI (Recruitment) ...... 289 Engagements...... 291 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 3 February 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 11WS JUSTICE...... 15WS Civil Service Compensation Scheme ...... 11WS Legal Aid Reform ...... 15WS Unimplemented Criminal Justice Provisions...... 16WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 13WS Private Rented Sector...... 13WS LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 18WS Topical Debates (Subjects Proposed) ...... 18WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 14WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 19WS Biomass and Grandfathering ...... 14WS Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (Renewal Order) ...... 19WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 15WS TREASURY ...... 11WS UK Marine Science Strategy...... 15WS Terrorist Asset Freezing...... 11WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 3 February 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 331W CABINET OFFICE—continued Broadband ...... 331W Illegal Immigrants...... 411W Business ...... 331W Non-profit Making Associations ...... 411W Copyright: Recordings ...... 332W Personal Income: North West ...... 412W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 332W Skin Cancer: Milton Keynes ...... 411W Employment: Females...... 332W Stress...... 412W Higher Education: Chelmsford ...... 333W Unemployment: Lone Parents...... 413W Insolvency...... 334W Unemployment: Parents...... 413W Manufacturing Industries: Government Unemployment: Torbay ...... 414W Assistance ...... 334W Museums and Galleries: Finance ...... 335W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 436W Royal Mail: Snow and Ice ...... 335W GCSE: Disadvantaged ...... 436W Train to Gain Programme ...... 336W Parents: Advisory Services ...... 437W Video Games: Finance ...... 336W Pre-School Education: Finance...... 440W

CABINET OFFICE...... 401W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 359W 10 Downing Street: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 401W Energy Performance Certificates...... 359W Breast Cancer: Cleethorpes ...... 402W Home Information Packs...... 359W Cancer: South Yorkshire ...... 402W Homelessness...... 360W Census ...... 403W Homes and Communities Agency and Tenant Charities: Standards...... 403W Services Authority: Loans...... 361W Charity Commission: Public Relations...... 404W Housing: Construction...... 362W Civil Servants: Pensions ...... 405W Housing Corporation and English Partnerships: Civil Servants: West Midlands ...... 405W Redundancy Pay ...... 361W Death: Homelessness ...... 405W Housing: Parking ...... 362W Deaths: Torbay...... 406W Housing: Sales ...... 362W Departmental Public Consultation...... 409W Local Government Finance ...... 362W Departmental Work Experience...... 409W Planning Permission ...... 363W Government Departments: Energy ...... 409W Recreation Spaces ...... 363W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 409W Regional Planning and Development: South East.. 364W Home Care Services: Finance ...... 410W Sleeping Rough: Ex-servicemen ...... 364W Hotels ...... 410W Urban Development Corporations ...... 364W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— HOME DEPARTMENT—continued continued Crimes of Violence: Convictions...... 344W Waste Management: Planning Permission ...... 365W DNA: Databases...... 345W Firearms ...... 345W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 340W Human Trafficking ...... 346W Departmental Travel ...... 340W Remand in Custody: Young People...... 346W Digital Broadcasting: Radio...... 340W Slough...... 347W Digital Broadcasting: Religious Buildings...... 340W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 349W Football: World Cup ...... 340W Stop and Search ...... 349W Licensing...... 341W Telecommunications: Databases ...... 350W Local Government Finance ...... 341W Museums and Galleries...... 341W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 329W Public Holidays...... 342W 14 Tothill Street...... 329W Sports: Torbay ...... 342W Swimming: Concessions...... 342W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 376W Television: Licensing ...... 343W Climate Change: Finance...... 376W Departmental Billing ...... 376W DEFENCE...... 337W Haiti: Earthquakes...... 376W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 337W Sub-Saharan Africa: Aids ...... 377W Armed Forces: Absence without Leave ...... 337W Departmental Billing ...... 338W JUSTICE...... 391W Departmental Public Relations ...... 338W Administration of Estates ...... 391W Snow and Ice...... 339W Data Access and Compliance Unit ...... 392W Data Protection: Freedom of Information...... 393W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 326W David Kelly Death Inquiry...... 394W Electoral Register: Expenditure...... 326W Debt Collection...... 394W Local Government Finance ...... 326W Departmental Housing ...... 394W Local Government: Suffolk...... 327W Driving Offences ...... 395W Driving Offences: Alcoholic Drinks ...... 396W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 377W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 396W Civil Nuclear Constabulary...... 377W National Standards for Enforcement Agents...... 397W Climate Change: International Cooperation ...... 378W Political Parties: Finance...... 397W Fuel Poverty...... 378W Prosecutions: Television ...... 398W Fuel Poverty: Ashford ...... 379W Victim Support Schemes ...... 400W Radioactive Materials: Waste Management ...... 379W Warm Front Scheme: Torbay ...... 380W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 330W Wind Power ...... 380W Topical Debates ...... 330W Wind Power: Electricity Generation...... 381W Wind Power: Noise ...... 382W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 327W Criminal Justice and Policing: Devolution ...... 327W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Departmental Billing ...... 328W AFFAIRS...... 330W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 328W Salmon: Merseyside ...... 330W Departmental Public Consultation...... 329W Organised Crime ...... 327W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 373W Power Sharing...... 328W 1 Carlton Gardens ...... 373W Prison Estate...... 327W Afghanistan: Corruption ...... 374W State Visits: Republic of Ireland...... 329W Belarus: Human Rights...... 374W Departmental Official Engagements ...... 375W OLYMPICS ...... 436W Uzbekistan: Cotton...... 375W Olympic Games 2012: Apprentices ...... 436W

HEALTH...... 382W PRIME MINISTER ...... 435W Abortion ...... 382W Transcription Services...... 435W Blood: Donors ...... 383W CJD ...... 383W SCOTLAND...... 324W Departmental Manpower...... 384W Departmental Information Officers ...... 324W Health Services: Voluntary Work ...... 385W Departmental Manpower...... 324W Home Care Services ...... 385W Departmental Public Consultation...... 324W Hospital Beds: East of England ...... 387W Hotels ...... 324W Midwives...... 388W Musgrove Park Hospital Taunton...... 388W SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 323W NHS: Children...... 389W Crown Prosecution Service: Victims...... 323W NHS: Ex-servicemen...... 389W Dorneywood ...... 323W NHS: Local Government ...... 390W Victims: Prosecutions...... 323W Nurses...... 390W Nutrition...... 390W TRANSPORT ...... 423W Social Services: Regulation...... 390W British Transport Police: Fixed Penalties...... 423W Tarceva ...... 391W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 424W Consultants: Fees and Charges ...... 425W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 343W Departmental Billing ...... 425W Crime: Halton...... 343W Departmental Disclosure of Information...... 425W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued WALES...... 325W Departmental Manpower...... 427W Children: Poverty ...... 325W First Capital Connect: Industrial Action ...... 427W Departmental Manpower...... 325W Lorry Drivers...... 427W Departmental Public Consultation...... 326W Railways: Bus Services ...... 428W Railways: Franchises ...... 428W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 372W Railways: Tickets ...... 429W Departmental Advertising...... 372W Railways: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 429W Departmental Billing ...... 373W Roads: Accidents ...... 429W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 373W Rolling Stock: Procurement ...... 433W Equality Bill 2008-09: Equality Bill 2009-10...... 373W Speed Limits: Greater London...... 435W Transport: Finance...... 435W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 350W Action for Employment ...... 350W Action for Employment: Milton Keynes ...... 350W Departmental Aviation ...... 350W TREASURY ...... 365W Departmental Cost Effectiveness ...... 351W Debts: Developing Countries ...... 365W Departmental Manpower...... 351W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 365W Departmental Publicity...... 352W Departmental Contracts ...... 366W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 353W National Income ...... 366W Disability Living Allowance: Appeals ...... 353W National Insurance Contributions: Young People.. 367W Employment Schemes ...... 353W Non-domestic Rates...... 368W Ethnic Minority Employment Task Force...... 354W Non-domestic Rates: Garages and Petrol Stations . 368W Incapacity Benefit ...... 355W Non-domestic Rates: Valuation ...... 368W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 355W Northern Ireland...... 368W Pension Credit: Overpayments ...... 356W PAYE...... 369W Pensions...... 356W Smuggling: Fuel Oil ...... 369W Social Security Benefits: Payments...... 357W Tax Allowances: Pensions ...... 370W Unemployment: Leeds ...... 357W Taxation: Aviation ...... 371W Unemployment: North Tyneside...... 358W Taxation: Holiday Accommodation...... 371W Unemployment: Young People...... 358W VAT: Alcoholic Drinks...... 372W Work Capability Assessment: Complaints...... 359W VAT: Memorials...... 372W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 359W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Wednesday 3 February 2010

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 3MC WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 3MC Departmental Public Expenditure ...... 3MC Equality Bill (Access to Information)...... 3MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 10 February 2010

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PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 505 Wednesday No. 36 3 February 2010

CONTENTS

Wednesday 3 February 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 283] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Strategic Defence Review (Green Paper) [Col. 303] Statement—(Mr. Bob Ainsworth)

Desecration of War Memorials [Col. 318] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Mr. Burrowes)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Police Grant Report [Col. 321] Motion—(Mr.Hanson)—agreed to

Local Government Finance [Col. 367] Motions—(Mr. Denham)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 409]

Yemen [Col. 412] Debate on motion for Adjournment

EU Enlargement Strategy [Col. 421] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Infrastucture Planning [Col. 424] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Financial Management [Col. 427] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Returning Officers (Accountability) [Col. 73WH] HIV/AIDS [Col. 99WH] First Capital Connect [Col. 106WH] University Places (England) [Col. 133WH] Punjabi Community in Britain [Col. 141WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 323W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 3MC]