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BUGLIOSI SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT NO.. 104 HON. ClitELES.H. OLDER, JUDGE THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, Plaintiff, vs. No. A253156 CHARLES MANSON, SUSAN ATKINS, LESLIE VAN HOUTEN, PATRICIA KRENWINKEL, Defendants. REPORTERS' DAILY TRANSCRIPT Monday, November 30, 1970 December 2, 4, 7, 8, 15, 16, 1970 APPEARANCES: For the People: VINCENT T. BUGLIOSI, DONALD A. MUSICH, STEPHEN RUSSELL KAY, DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS For Deft. Matison: I. A. KANAREK, Esq. For Deft. Atkits: DAYE SHINN, Esq. For Deft. Van Houten: RONALD HUGHES, Esq. For Deft. Krenwinkel: PAUL FITZGERALD, Esq. VOLUME 152 JOSEPH B. HOLLOMBE, CSR., MURRAY MEHLMAN, CSR., PAGES 18,270 to 18,465 Official Reporters ARCHIVES 000007 18270 1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, MONDAY, NOVEMBER '30„ 1970 2 10:06 of clock. a.m. RO 1.0 3 4 (The following proceedings occur in chotibers. All counsel save and except 1r. Ronald Hughes present. 6 Defendants not present.) 7 THE COURTt The record will show all counsel are present except Mr. Hughes. 9 I understand from talking with counsel informally 10 that no one has heard anything ofht.mthis morn .rig or knows of 11 his -whereabouts. 12 If I am mistaken, please so indicate. 13 The Clerk has also indicated that no message 14 has been received from Mr., .Hughes this morning. 15 MR. :BUGLIOSI: X beard him. over the radio this 16 morning on t14 way editing to work. 17 THE COURT; You heard him on the rad1.4:;? 18' MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes... 19 I don't know when the interview was granted, 20 but this morning abut 8;15 he was on the radio. 21 THE COURT: On what station? 22, BUGLIOSIt I don't know. 23 THE COURT: Was he being interviewed? 24 MR. BUGLIOSI; He was being interviewed. 25 THE COURT; By whom? 26 MR. BUGLIOSX; By a reporter. ARCHIVES 000008 IB,271 1 I didn't hear it too veil. I was being .driven 2 in t3 vork. They Wer6 talking something about the Court interfering with the relationship between -- I think he was 4 referring to the defeidants taking the, *witness stand, or 5 something like that. 6. It vas ilinestincoherent. THE COURT Veil, as I indicated to you gentlemen, informally we 'can proceed to di'sbuss some of the requested 9. instructions from both sides until Mr. Hughes gets here, 10 so that we don't waste any time. 11 ' don't see any necessity of having our 12 discussions on the record.. Eventually the Court's raling0 13 as to which instructi-ons vill be given or not given, and 14 your objections and arguments with respect thereto, will 15 be on the record, of course; but our informal discussion Al fit. 16 does not need to be on the record. 17 18 19 20. 21. 2g 23 .24 25 26 ARCHIVES 000009 18,27? x- MR4-4ANAREK; Your Ronor„ I have a fundamental Point that I Would like to in on the record, and that is 3 thisl have done A lot of thinking and reading over 5 or these transcripts, and there was a glaring inequity, :6 yourHonar, in connection with the language that Was written, allegedly1 at these homea.. a Now, Mr. Mans= -- your Honor has given 9 Instructions that the Hefter akelter conversations, all or 10 that without belaboring it, I am sure your RQ1101, knows what I =referring to THE COURT: I don't know what you are talking ,about, Mr. lianarek. 14 MR. XANARBXT His conversation with people like 15 Mr. Jacobson, Dianne Lake, and $o forth, these conversations 16 were admitted only as against Mr. Manson. 17, Now, we have, at the Tate hOmo, and we have, 18 at the La Bianca home, these words that were Written upon 19 the refrigerator door) and so forth. 41' How, these• haie nothing to do -- that is, the 21 ; human body itself -4 4 a letter were found in there, that 22 latter could'Ilibt be used against Nr. Manson. And it is my ! 23 position, your Honor, that we are entitled to an instruction, 24 that none of those words there-ix hO'Sholiing that Mr. MansOn Wrote those words down. There is no showing that Mr, Mansonis handwriting is conneCtedl itth those words. As a tatter of fact, there is no showing or any of the ARCHIVES 000010 18,273 defendants' handwriting being connected with those words. 2 TherefOre'l.lour Upnor, We are entitled to an instruction that none of those words, ullelter Skelter„° Po iti- 'aa Pig," none of those wordy that were aUegediy written In blood can be used against Mr. Manson. 6 ' 7 a 9 10 11 • 14, 15 16 19., 20 • 21 ta, 24 "25 ARCHIVES 000011 18,274, 1-1 I urge the Court to consider that very 2 seriously because there is nothing to show what the 3 mOurce of that language was. 4 It is fat removed from the physical body. THE COURT: 'Veil, if you have some special instruc- tion you wish given, Mr. Kanarek, I will be glad to consider 7 it. 8 kANAREK: I wander what the Coures,thinking is on that, and I would like counsel -- because I don't wish to -- 11 TkE COURT: Thinking. as to what' 12 . 1M. KANAREK: As to that general principle. we 13 In other words, of course objected to this 14 throughout the trial. TAE COURT* Well, it is a physical fact, if believed; 16 the words. were written and they are just as much in the evidence as, say, a piece of rope or a knife or anything 18 else that Was found at the scene, 19 NR. WARM: Well, yes,yourIlormr, but it is more 2Q than just -- you see, it is more than just a physical 21 body passing away, 22 This is received from the physical body and 23 this is in the nature -- this is in the nature of something 24 or other.to show motive, or something like that, and the 25 • point is there is no connection of those words with Mr. • 1 :* 26 Manson. ARCHIVES 000012 18,275 THE COURT: IT m sure you will argue that to the jury, Mr Y Xanarek.„ s. ice. XANiii. Your Honor, for instance, allowed .4 instructions thatvhcn i t. Uanson 5. THE COURT: I have not allowed anything yet. 6 fit. 1 ANARE I am speaking of admonishment to the itA7- Your Honor admonished the jury that these words 9 r, . ,MansOn allegedly uttered would be used against Mr. 10 MansOn alone, But these words actually at the scene, not being 12 ourteeteci up to 1.1r. Manson, cannot be used against him, your 13 Honor. MR. )3UGLIOSI; Your Honor, if he can make an argument 15 like that right now, I am worried. We are, going to be here i6 three or four days, because this is an unbelievable argu- xr THE COURT; An right, Mr.' tanarek,' if you have a 10 requested instruction you wish to offer to the Court, of 20 course now is the time. This is what we are here for.- 21 Mk. KANAREK: YO, your Honor. I will. 22 THE COURT: All right, let's start, 23 • As I say, 'there is no point in having all of 24 this informal discussion on the record. We will make our 25 record after we have decided something, So we will go off 26 the record at this time, - ARCHIVES 000013 140$ ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, ONDO,,NPVEMBER 30i 1970 - :(Whe follow-1h% proceedings-Occur in Chambers. 4 All counselbutltr. Aughe0 present. Defendants 'absent,./ 'THE,COURT: We are ,bank On the record, gentlemen. :6 I have. received requested instructions, from •.both. Mr,VittgeraId., which' purport to be requetted' inStructionS ,on. behalf, of all of the "defendants,, and I have also received the People's requested instructiOns, 10 Among the instructions requested by Mr, ntsgerald on behalf Of the defendants are CAL4I0g.60.and 12 , CALX10,2..61,% •These are alsO requested by. the People. .1 understand from ,our discussion, Mr, Kanarek, 15 41. that yon x ow wick7 tO 16 ' MR, KANAREK: Yes. Tog COURT:, •TO the Courtts. giving either of those instructions, ' KANAREK; Yes, your Donor,, X might say this Just briefly, Mr, Fitzgeraldfl; -- the inttruction4, Your Km= statedl are 01 behalf of all of the defendants You might say that is an adVised comment because there are some -- he recognizes and I 24' recognize- there are some' differences of opiniO4 because, of some inherent conflict between his client and my client, 26 Sol all of these are not offered on behalf of Mr. Manson. ARCHIVES 000014 .10,277 1 • But'speCifically, to answer your,question, it is my request that CALJId i.6(; 101.6i'llotbe gl;emt TILL COURT: Very well, . j • 4 MR, FITZGERALD: And it my' request, your Honoro. that they be given. 3 6 TWA COURT-: As I have indicated to youl in a ease of this kind, where you have multiple defendants, and multiple 8 defense counsel, and there is a disagreement as to the 9 desirability of giving these instructidna among defense counsel, I am not going to give the. instructions. aoweverl I do not think that counsel who wish the instruction should be precluded from arguing to the Jury that a defendant has no -. well, that he has a Agnetitutional right not to testify, 18 .20: 21; 24 • • 25. • 26 ARCHIVES 000015 1.8,,278 — , - . t • 3-1 And, 'I think further that the'de4fenie counsel. ' could refer in his argument to the other maters cOntained- within those instructions, the ,only difference being , 4r ttlat.h.ett the.
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