Interviewer’s name: Brendan Toussaint

Interviewee’s Name: Jay Summerour

Instructors Name: Mr. Glenn Whitman

2/17/09 Toussaint 1

Table of Contents

Release Forms Pgs 2-3

Statement of Purpose Pg 4

Biography Pg 5-6

Nothing But The : History Definitely Pg7-14 Does Not Get Any Better Than This! Pg15-35 Transcription Pg 36 Time Indexing Log Pg 37-45 Analysis Pg 46-47 Works Consulted

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Statement of Purpose

The purpose of this project is to show Blues music in a new light. Blues is not a highly covered topic in history today. The oral history interview with Mr. Summerour will show a musician struggle and greatest moments in his career. The goal of this project is to show a new perspective on the Blues which is not shown in history books today.

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BIOGRAPHY Jay Summerour was born February 16, 1950 in Bethesda . Mr. Summerour’s father was in the military when Jay was a youth. His mother was a private duty nurse. Since

Jay’s parents were in a difficult career to spend time with their son, Jay had to be raised by his grandparents his whole life. Jay then began to pick up the Blues from his grandfather, who taught

Jay all about this type of music.

Jay’s grandparents were a big influence on him when it came to Blues music. His grandparents played Blues music around him all the time. When Jay first came into Blues his grandfather gave him his first harmonica. Jay’s real goal wasn’t Blues at the time though. Jay

Toussaint 6 wanted to be a baseball player. When Jay was a teenager he got into a serious car accident that crushed his legs, his chest, punctured his lung, broke his jaw in three places, fractured his skull, Toussaint2 knocked his eye out and gashed his eye. This was a serious blow for Jay, because this meant he could not play baseball anymore. Jay did not look at this situation as a bad time; instead he thought this helped his decision to becoming a Blues musician.

Jay began to first play at open mic nights. His group, with Warner Williams band, got many gigs by playing at open mic nights. Then he was discovered by a man named Nick Spitzer.

Nick Spitzer is a promoter for the Smithsonian record label.

With all the touring Jay Summerour realized he should try to find a balance with his family and his job as a Blues musician. Jay then decided to work as a bus driver in Maryland. Jay currently performs weekend gigs with his band at local spots in Maryland.

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Nothing But The Blues:

History Definitely Does Not Get Any Better Than This!

It’s hard to explain, describe, or write about the Blues. Like listening to the sound of sex through a thin motel wall, you know the Blues when you hear it, even if you would be hard pressed to describe exactly what is going on. What do you know is that stirs you and that keeps you up at night -- Alex Gibney, a producer (Scorsese 8).

No one really knows when or where Blues music started. It grew out of African-

American slave songs. Historian Colin a Palmer once said “A type of African American musical art that was first developed in the Mississippi Delta region at the end of the nineteenth century, the Blues, like many musical expressions, is difficult to define. Some people think of the Blues as an emotion; others regard it primarily as a musical genre characterized by a special containing twelve bars and three chords in a particular order” (297). Slaves were freed in

1865 because of the thirteenth amendment which guaranteed their freedom. Many slaves remained in the south as sharecroppers for white landowners. The ex-slaves were just doing the job that they were just freed from over again. They sang songs of sorrow to express their raw pain and emotion. The songs they sung helped many of the ex-slaves get through their hard and difficult moments. An example of an early Blues song is in the early 1900’s from a Blues Mamie

Desdoumes who played in the Garden District of New Orleans. Desdoumes is down on her luck and is telling a tale of poverty. The song does not have a name; it was just a song Desdoumes performed on the spot. This is the lyrics from Desdoumes song: “I stood on the corner, my feet was dripping wet,/I asked every man I met/Can’t give me a dollar, give me a lousy dime,/ Just to feed that hungry man of mine.” Blues and the black experience are highly related to each other.

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If blacks did not have a hard time in America Blues would have never been created. Blacks used

Blues as way to show and express their emotions. Therefore, in order to understand the perspectives of someone who is a Blues musician and a teacher of the Blues, it is important to Toussaint2 first examine the history of the Blues, and what makes it important historically and relevant to music today.

In 1853, when American journalist Frederick Olmsted first heard the Blues it came to him as a surprise. Olmsted said,

One raised such a sound as I had never heard before, a long, loud, musical

shout, rising, and falling, and breaking into falsetto, his voice ringing through

the woods in the clear, frosty night air, like a bugle call. As he finished, the

melody was caught up by another, and then by several in chorus. (Olmsted

35)

Olmsted is describing his encounter with a gang of slaves who were hired on a railroad company. The music is the African American slave’s raw emotion and pain. They are screaming to show their pain. After the emancipation of slaves, most freedmen worked in isolation, but there are many who sang songs in a group. As historian Colin A Palmer once said

By singing about frustration, mistreatment, and misfortune, and often

overcoming it with irony, Blues singer helped themselves and their listeners

to deal with the problems of life, whether frustrated and angered by cheating

lovers, ignorant bosses, hypocritical churchgoers, crooked shopkeepers, an

unjust legal system, racism, and prejudice, police brutality, inadequate pay,

unemployment, or the meaninglessness of menial labor(298).

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This quote describes what the Blues covers and describes what a musician has gone through.

Around the turn of the century, W.C. Handy (1905) and others popularized a new genre of music called the Blues. Supposedly, Handy was waiting for a train that was late and all of a sudden a stranger with a guitar approaches him. W.C. Handy noticed the guitar player played the instrument in a different manner and sang in an unusual way. The guitar player used a pocket knife to slide the guitar strings, the guitar player had a wailing voice which goes back to the idea of Blues telling stories of pain and sorrow. Also the guitar player repetition of his lyrics was interesting to Handy. All of this was new to Handy who thought he could market this idea. The guitar player had an emotional honesty with his music. This gave W.C. Handy a brilliant idea and it was to market the Blues, but the Blues did not become popular until the 1920’s. Blues had to become well known and appreciated for it to become popular. Newspapers of the day describe

Handy’s skill with a performance of his hit song . Like every form of music it takes time for it to become a well known genre. As the New York Times said, “W.C. Handy was called from the floor to lead his Memphis Blues a rare example of ”(Clef Club In Lively

Music 1). Like every form of music it takes time for it to become a well known genre. The Blues had to become well known for others to appreciate it and play it. Like any other form of music it takes time for Blues to develop into its adult years.

The first Blues artist came to the scene on 1920 with help from a man named Perry

Bradford. Perry Bradford had to convince Okeh Records to let him record a track he wrote called

“Crazy Blues” by Mamie Smith. In the 1920’s, it was believed that blacks would not purchase records for various reasons. One reason is because Blacks could not afford records at the time.

Even though this was true, Bradford’s record still sold seventy-five thousands copies in its first

Toussaint 10 couple of months. This is when other record labels noticed that they should keep an eye on this type of music. Toussaint2

When the record industry noticed Blues music taking off, labels began to sign female artist. One female artist stood out in 1923, this diva artist name was Bessie Smith. Director

Martin Scorsese said “Smith, no relation to Mamie, didn’t just sing the Blues-she made you believe the music was the blood running through her veins. A tall hefty woman, she delivered full bodied stories of despair and vivid lyrical description of a world where misery was no stranger to the downtrodden” (Scorses19). Bessie Smith kept her music emotional by expressing her true emotions about life. Smith used her music as a way for her fans to connect to her physically and emotionally. In ten years, Bessie Smith recorded over 160 records for Columbia records.

Even though Bessie Smith had an excellent career, she was still no match for two street musicians, and Blind Jake. Blind Lemon Jefferson and Blind Jake both made a huge mark in commercially. Jefferson had a great resume for Blues,

Jefferson was a Texas singer/guitar player, who knew bountiful amount of hymns, plus dance, rag, and pop songs of that time period. In 1925, when Jefferson was signed to Paramount

Records, he had a style from playing on street corners for tips. Jefferson had hit records such as

“Match Box Blues”, “Black Snake Moan”, and “See that My Grave Is Kept Clean”. Blind

Jefferson lyrics from “See that My Grave us Kept Clean” shows Blues at its finest moment.

Blind Jefferson lyrics included “Did you ever hear that coffin' sound/ Have you ever heard that coffin' sound/Did you ever hear that coffin' sound/Means another poor boy is underground”.

Blind Jefferson’s song was about how when he is dead he wants his family to do one favor for

Toussaint 11 him, the favor is to make his grave clean for him. Jefferson’s lyrics made him the highest selling country Blues artist of the 1920’s. In 1926, an artist by the name of Arthur “Blind” Blake came onto the scene. Blind

Blake was an artist who was a big part of Blues. was talented with his finger picking ability with his guitar. With Blind Blake’s ability he took some Blues and formed it into ragtime. Blind Blake was different from Blues musician for one major reason, because his music was type of music you can listen to at parties. An example would be from Blind Blake’s song, “Diddie Wa Diddie”. Blind Blake’s lyrics was “I went around and walked around, somebody yelled, said, "Look who's in town/ Mister Diddie Wa Diddie/Mister Diddie Wa

Diddie/I wish somebody would tell me/ what Diddie Wa Diddie means/ Went to church, put my hand on the seat, lady sat on it said,/"Daddy, you sure is sweet"/Mister Diddie Wa Diddie.”

The importance of this song is that Blues does not necessarily always have to be about pain and sorrow. Blues musician can get the same raw emotions with a fun record for parties. Blind Blake recorded over eighty records until the 1932. Many Blues musicians from the East coast look up to Blind Blake’s style of Blues.

In Robert Johnson’s time, was highly popular. Delta Blues is the style where the artist travels a lot. The artist tours all over the world, instead of like most artist who only play in neighborhood clubs. The artist, when he travels, has a chance to work on his music in different ways. Basically this was a time where Blues musician can become creative with their music.

Robert Johnson is important because no one knows his story. His rise into Blues is a myth. The myth is Robert Johnson received his guitar playing skills from the Devil. Most historians believe that the true reason Johnson learned about the Blues was from watching musician such as Son

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House. Johnson did not develop a new kind of Blues, Johnson just created a new way of looking at the Blues. Blues music evolved into something great after Johnson. Author Martin Scorsese Toussaint2 said, “Johnson didn’t develop a new country-Blues style; instead, he absorbed most everything he heard, blending styles, picking up nuances, remembering lyrics and song themes in general, synthesizing almost everything consequential about the Blues up to that point”(28).Johnson redefined Blues at this point in history. The way Johnson changed Blues is by making the music seem less complicated in a way. One song by Johnson is called, “I got Stone In my Pass way”.

The song goes like this “I got stones in my pass way/ And my road seem dark as night/I got stones in my pass way /And my road seem dark as night/ I have pains in my hearts/ They have taken my appetite.”This song still relates to the early ideas of Blues music. There is still that raw pain in Johnson’s music.

Piedmont Blues is a different style of Blues. Piedmont involves a finger picking with the guitar. UNC Asheville student’s research says “The Piedmont Blues style may even reflect an earlier musical tradition than the Blues that emerged from the Mississippi Delta. According to

Samuel Charters, the alternating-thumb bass pattern and “finger-picking style” of Piedmont

Blues guitar is reminiscent of West African kora playing and earlier banjo styles, also of African origin (UNC Students p. 137).” This is describing the technique Piedmont uses. The music melody is syncopated and the bass is changed. The sound of Piedmont is similar in a way to ragtime music. The quote describes that Piedmont comes from African American origin.

Piedmont was Popular in places such as Richmond, Virginia, , Georgia. Maryland,

Delaware, , and northern , eastern , , and

Alabama. Wikipedia says “As a form of Black American popular music, Piedmont Blues fell out

Toussaint 13 of favor on a national basis after WW II, but remained as a local, community-based music through the SE for older Black folks' "Saturday Night Functions" (house parties and the like).” Piedmont was not relevant during World War II. This prevented artist from expressing themselves. Piedmont Blues was still entertaining to most people. The music had an extreme danceable vibe to it. The Piedmont tradition was a form of ragtime. This is why Blind Blake was a popular Piedmont Blues musician. Blind Blake developed his talent to make Blues seem like ragtime, which gave the music a party kind of vibe.

Historians view Blues in as an interesting topic because it incorporates music and race.

Historian Van Morrison said “The Blues –there’s no black and white-it’s truth” (qtd. in Scorsese

64). This quote shows that Blues can only be told in the truth, and Blues is not taking a side.

Historian Corey Harris, once said “There are happy Blues, sad Blues, lonesome Blues, red-hot

Blues, mad Blues, and loving Blues. Blues is a testimony to the fullness of life” (qtd. in Scorsese

65). The quote shows that Blues can basically be about anything, but it still has that raw emotion part of the music. Historian Colin A. Palmer says “The Blues is a distinct musical type. It is an instrumentally accompanied song-type, with identifying features in its verse, melodic, and harmonic structures, composition, and accompaniment. Most Blues lyrics are set in three-line or quatrain-refrain verses. In the three-line verses shown below, the second line repeats the first, sometimes with slight variation, while the third completes the thought of the rhyme” (298). This quote is a historians interpretation about the Blues.

Historians should care about Blues music because many genres branch off from it. For example Hip-hop and rag time became big genres after Blues music. Blues music became popular because it connected with the fans at the time. The artist showed their pain and emotion

Toussaint 14 through their music, but some artists actually had some happy moments in their records. Blues is a powerful genre, that helped form many other genres in today’s culture. Toussaint2

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Interviewee/Narrator: Jay Summerour

Interviewer: Brendan Toussaint

Location: Mr. Summerour’s home, Gaithersburg, MD Date: December 20, 2008

This interview was reviewed and edited by Brendan Toussaint

Brendan Toussaint: This is Brendan Toussaint and I am interviewing Jay Summerour as part of the American Century Oral History Project. This interview took place at Jay Summerour’s house on December 20th, at 10:20.SO my first question for you is what was it like growing up in Bethesda in the 1960’s and 1970’s?

Jay Summerour: Well it was pretty good. It was a lot of music around and then there was a lot of juke joints. We called them juke joints. A lot of clubs where the black went and played baseball, had picnics, and danced at night. They had people like they called the chittlins circle. People like Edda James, and Little Richard, James Brown, a lot of groups came around. They traveled from like up north from like Chicago all the way down to Mississippi. And they did little juke joint shows like that.

BT: Can you explain the juke joint shows a little bit.

JS: Well they just a gathering for black folks. Where black folks use to go and have a good time and dance and shoot pool, and have a drink. They would have a good time. It was just a party.

BT: What did you do for fun when you were growing up?

JS: When I was growing up I loved Baseball.

BT: Baseball?

JS: Yeah, I was in love with baseball man, so I played a lot of baseball. And shot marbles. Just got dirty. (both laugh)and I um use to go out to Rockville and that’s where my grandfather and grandmother lived. And my uncle lived next door to them, so he had a son bout my age. And I use to go out and play with him and my grandfather he played Blues. That’s how I got into the

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Blues. My grandfather played Blues, and he would be sitting in the alley and he would play Blues. And be a bunch of people around, so I would listen to him a lot. And I always had a harmonica. I always tried to play. My uncle use to say “Go over there and listen to your Toussaint2 grandfather boy. You don’t know nothing about playing that thing.” (both laugh)So I laughed and I go listen to grand daddy, but I messed with a harmonica for all my life. I loved playing music to back then yeah.

BT: Tell me about your family?

JS: Well they um my dad was in the military and my mom she was a private duty nurse for a while. She um. We um lived in Rockville and my Family moved from Georgia here. And build houses and they been here for all my life. Yeah. They moved from outside Atlanta Georgia from Marietta to Augusta Georgia.

BT: In what ways they influenced your life?

JS: Being a good person. I think they raised me pretty good. They gave me a lot of goals and morals, and stuff like that. And um I don’t know I played music like my granddaddy did. And um they’re pretty good people. We owned. My Family. My uncle they owned a store in Rockville. So we learned about business and stuff to.

BT: How were you 1st introduced to music? Who were your mentors or heroes?

JS: Well my hero was my grandfather. (Laugh)That was my man. That was my hero. I like and Ryan McGee. A lot of old Blues. My mom use to listen to a lot of Blues. And she um was in this group. She played softball and they had this group called Wonderettes. Like 10 woman and they use to have a lot of shows. They had a lot of fun. Back then people had fun back then. They worked hard and they deserved to have a good time. So they had little groups and they use to have dances, ball games, picnics, sit in the yard. People did a lot of cooking out then. You know a lot of barbequing and they um Sit in the yard and play music. Most of the music back then was Blues. They use to do what you called hand dancing. Yeah a lot of hand dancing. Turn around and spin and stuff like that. Like you see in the old movies, but it was a lot

Toussaint 17 of fun. I couldn’t wait to grow up. I use to think you had to be old to play the Blues. (Both Laugh). That’s all I ever seen playing the Blues was older people you know. I use to think you had to be old to play the Blues, but I use to love it. I use to walk in the woods. There use to be a lot of woods around Rockville back then, so I use to um take my harmonica. And go walk through the woods with my dog. I always had a dog. You know just play my harmonica and go fishing. Play my harmonica. Then when I was seven years old my grandmother brought me a trumpet. She loved music. She couldn’t play a lick, but she loved music. But um she got us horns and stuff. I um took lessons in school. I played the trumpet till I got like in the tenth grade. Then I was into like I said baseball. I wanted to be a baseball player. And um I don’t know I just I love music I love it man.

BT: How did your family react to the news of you wanting to be a Blues musician?

JS: They didn’t (Both Laugh) they loved music, but they wanted me to make a real good living. You know how parents are they want u to be a doctor or lawyer. But my grandmother she raised me, I lived with her all my life. Cause my dad was in the military and stuff, I lived with my grandmother she raised me and a couple of my other cousins. But um she was the type that said your not going to be satisfied until you do what you want to do. You know you got to try you got try. To do it or else you won’t be satisfied in life. I did what I had to do in school. I got an education, because you got to have an education. No matter what you do, even playing music. You got to have an education. Or else you’ll lose out all the way around. I don’t know she was that influenced me a lot to do what I wanted to do. But back then black people didn’t think you could really make a living in doing it was a lack of confidence or something. Do you know what I mean? It was a lack of confidence and they didn’t think you can make the money you can make playing music. Cause back in the days the white people use to take black music and play it. Black people couldn’t play their music on the radio. They weren’t allowed to. They wasn’t allowed to. That’s when Gene Aughtry and all them dudes they use to do the black songs. That’s how they really got famous. Cause Black people couldn’t really play their music on the radio. And so the white people did their songs. And some of them they got mad at a lot of the musicians because they wouldn’t let them do their songs. And like Elvis Presley. Elvis Presley he did a lot of black songs. And um that’s just how it was back then, so people had that feeling

Toussaint 18 Toussaint2 you couldn’t make it playing music. They knew you couldn’t make it playing music. Now a day’s its different, so I do alright. I make a pretty good living. I’m taking care of my family. We eating. (Both laugh).

BT: Tell me what characterizes the Blues?

JS: Blues is a poor man feeling bad (both laugh). That’s an old saying (both laugh).Thats what people always say what the Blues is. You know Blues can also be happy also. It takes like if you get depressed. If I ever got in a down mood. I get my instrument out and play music. It would take me away from that. It was like a cure for it. It’s just a way expressing your feelings. Back in the slave days it was a way like that the slaves use to communicate because they weren’t allowed to talk in the fields, so they use to sing songs about like when they use to want to runaway on Friday they sing a song about it. You know! And the white people they ain’t paying no mind, they ain’t know what was going on. But it was their way of singing and communicating and letting them know when their going to meet and go do what their going to do. You know! That’s where the Blues come from. And it comes from country music, blacks folks used to do country music. A lot of country music, a lot of famous fiddlers were blacks. Black people started people black kids today if you mention fiddle to them they would frown. But black people grew up playing music like that.

BT: Alex Gibney a PBS Award winning producer once said “It’s hard to explain, describe, or write about the Blues. Like listening to the sound of sex through a thin motel wall. You know the Blues when you hear it. Even if you would be hard pressed to describe exactly what is going on. What do you know that stirs and that keeps you up late at night.” Do you agree with his statement about the Blues?

JS: Yeah! You know a lot Blues like. Everybody has an opinion about it. Like I said it’s a feeling. You know! So everybody got a different opinion about it, different feel about it. That’s why you have different kind of Blues. Yeah.

BT: How does one learn to play the Blues?

Toussaint 19 JS: You know that’s a good question because I tell a lot of people it’s hard to learn. Because Blues is a feeling and I see a lot of white guys play the Blues, but it’s not the same as a black person playing the Blues. It’s just a feel- We grew up playing the Blues. We understand the Blues. And the Blues you got to understand it to play it. I think. That’s my opinion. Yeah and everybody has their own opinion. And that’s my opinion about it.

BT: Blues is often been connected with the African American experience. Why do you think that is so?

JS: Well because were the ones who had the hard times. You know. We had to travel a long way to get here. You know. It was hard times we went through a lot, we went through a whole lot to have our rights here.

BT: Did you go to music school?

JS: I took music in school. Then I was in an orchestra in . I was in a Cambridge harmonica orchestra. Then I had learned from a lot of professionals like Sonny Terry, and James Cotton, and Junior Wells. And it’s a lot of people. This guy younger than me like this guy Phil Wiggins. You know how like we go to this school out there. You just learn from a lot of people and you’re a tort. That’s better than school. I learned a lot in school about music, but what I learned is from just talking to people. You learn more like you get a feeling from just talking to the old guys. Or them telling you stories of what they been through and that way you learn the Blues. Like I say you got to learn the Blues to play the Blues.

BT: What was it like playing in the places you played at?

JS: You know it’s been a lot of fun. I like to see people have a good time. I’ve played in some places. I’ve been with bands where I had to go out the back door. (Both Laugh).You know down south I’ve been with bands. I’ve invited people in. It’s funny I met this black guy one time down in South Carolina. And we were talking out front. And I said why don’t you come and here the band. You know and I give you a pass and he said “Man, You lucky if you get out there tonight. I know I ain’t coming in there.” I said “O lord what they getting me into this time.” But then after I got in there the owner came to me and said “If you ever come down south and you

Toussaint 20 Toussaint2 don’t come by here I’m going to be looking for you.” (Both Laugh).He had such a good time you know. That’s just how music affects people. You know music is different in how it affects people. Music is different in how it affects people. You know like so I had another friend. It’s been fun I just like seeing people have a good time. We played at Capitol Hill sometimes and a lot of the guys up here they’ll say we got some music for y’all. So the people from down south say y’all stole the guys from down south. Y’all know y’all ain’t got a musician like that up here. But they like it, so you know it’s a thing of giving back. You know it makes you feel good seeing people enjoy it.

BT: So you became like a Blues musician because you want to give back your music to the people?

JS: Well you know I didn’t plan on being a Blues musician. I just like it satisfies me and I love music. And the money started to come with it. You know and I said darn how can you say no? I love being a Blues musician. I love it. I love the traveling. I love meeting the older guys and talking to them. The social life. And it’s a great experience for my kids. It’s a great experience for them because they met a lot of people. I remember telling my daughter s and I went to Wolf Trap and um I took them to see Edda James, Lervern Baker, and Ruth Brown. And these are woman who paved the way for black woman signing. And they got to meet these women and got they’re auto graphs. And it was very pleasing to me, to see my little girl she hung the autographs and pictures on the wall. You know and it made me feel really good. She’ll have that for the rest of her life. You know and these women mean a lot to music. They’re some of the greatest singers that ever was and its stuff like that that makes it worth wild.

BT: Do you think your kids took away anything from that experience?

JS: Aw Yeah because They I talk to them sometimes. They know what the Blues is. It’s funny one day I came down here and like my sixteen year old she can sit at the piano. That’s her piano over there and she can sit at a piano and she can listen to the radio and she could play the music. Same thing with a guitar. You know she has a guitar and she guitar lessons in school for nine weeks. (Telephone ringing)

Toussaint 21 BT: Interview interrupted for telephone call.

JS: That’s good background music my interview. (Both Laugh)

BT: What was your dream after college?

JS: To just come home and go on the road and play music. By then. By that time I knew what I wanted to do. I Knew I wanted to play music then. When I was little I saw Sonny Terry and Brian McGee one time and I said God that wouldn’t be a bad thing to do. Sit down and play music. I thought that was a cool job but I didn’t know I was going to be able to do it. You know but it ended up just worked out that way as being that kind of music. I worked on stage crews and hall band equipment. I mean like famous groups like the Stones and Emerson Lake and Palmer. A lot of rock groups, that’s what I did when I was, like a teenager. Work like that at the Baltimore Civic Center and Shady Grove Music fare. Up on Shady Grove Road there use to be a music fare there. And I did that. Run around with bunch of my young friends. Doing stuff like that. And um I don’t know being around music all that time. You know if you’re around something. You just fall right into it.

BT: How did you survive as a musician?

JS: Good. I just like I wanted be home for my kids. I didn’t want to be on the road all the time. I like I use to play like 25 nights a month. On the road. Running back and forth me and d a bunch of guys in a van. You know doing the college circuits. I decided to settle down and have a family. I got a job driving a school bus. Got to get a job with benefits you know and stay home with my kids. I didn’t want to be one of those dead beat dads. (He Laughs) So it means a lot to me to be able to spend the time with my kids. So I got that job and worked around it. Now it’s going really good, because I also do a program called Blues in the Schools. So I have band jobs at colleges like at colleges like Agony College, and um Maryland University, and Southern University. And I have a whole lot of colleges I have this guy that books me doing like all concerts in colleges. Where I go make a couple thousands dollar for an hour and they house us and feed us. And I come back home you know. Then I still have my job. Now m job it works with me. They know what I do. They work with me. And it set up as I make good money on my

Toussaint 22 Toussaint2 job and I’ve been there for 25 yrs and then I make good music playing music. So I worked it out. It’s something you got to put together. You know how you got to live your life.

BT: So it’s a good balance?

JS: O Yeah it’s a great balance. I don’t have to work hard because gigs come to me. I am doing I do house concerts. These people have house concerts. They pay great money. I am doing inauguration. I played at Library of Congress I found a lot of gigs right around here. But that comes from record companies like the record company I am with like Folk Way Records Smithsonian. It’s a Smithsonian record label. And um it’s national you know. It’s like all over the world. And then XM radio they have a lot of that stuff on there. That goes all over the world. Um in magazines. I am like Living Blues Magazines and Ebony magazine. All kinds of magazines. A matter of fact in January they are doing an article on me in the Bethesda magazine which is a big magazine. So good advertisement. I can work it’s not like I am dying for work. You know People actually looking for me they call me I’m satisfied. I am in a good place. Because Blues is not like Hip-Hop or Rap. Like rap music you hear about these rappers they’re famous it goes for a while. (Cell phone ringing)

BT: Interview interrupted for a telephone call.

JS: O lord they’re going to think I am too popular.

BT: Tell me about your first job?

JS: My first job and job?

BT: Yeah

JS: Well I used to play in this pub. I guess that was my first job (he laughs). I n this pub called Timothy Pub in Rockville. I used to play there a lot. A lot of my friends like they’re professional musicians’ like before I was. They were out there. They were real big time. SO a lot of people always came. That’s how I really got in like I was always comfortable playing. So you know it was never no problem for me because all my friends play music. And I always played in

Toussaint 23 backyards and just party and stuff so I don’t know it was just fun. It was a lot of friends that came anyway most of them we sit in the backyard and play with it and got together with and have parties. SO it was just it wasn’t no big deal.

BT: So tell me about tryouts for certain parts, certain gigs?

JS: Tryouts?

BT: If they were any.

JS: Well you know it wasn’t really no tryouts. It’s funny man I’ve had it easy (both laugh). It’s been easy It’s just like I’ve always played and people always wanted to hear the bands that I’ve been with, so it was like It wasn’t really a tryout thing. They were just like coming to get us. When me and my partner started playing. We’ve been playing together for 20 something years. We started playing in Open Mics at this pub in Gaithersburg. People started to line up and come and more people started to come and more people started to come and hear about us. Then we go to another open mic and this guy named Nick Spitzer he is a promoter like for Smithsonian and he goes for like NPR National Public Radio and he goes out and fins traditional acts. Like acts he thinks can be national acts he think people need to hear from the roots. He has a show called the roots. Roots music and um he came and found us and he got us on circuit for the Smithsonian and he like tried to get us to record and he recorded us. And took us to New Orleans for the New Orleans Jazz Festival and he did a whole lot of stuff for us, with people like him you got to find people you can trust. And he was one we can really trust. And we really loved him. We still keep in touch and um it’s just a thing of finding somebody like that and it’s just a thing go going out and looking. People had found us.

BT: Who are some of the people you played with?

JS: I worked with Star land Vocal Band. I worked with them. They are good friends of mine. They had a lot of gold records and stuff. They did the song Afternoon Delight. A whole lot of songs and I was with them I guess five to seven year I guess just hanging out cause we were really good friends. And John and I did a lot of shows. We opened up for like Jackson Brown, so lade, at the monument grounds and by me doing stage work for them. They would give me

Toussaint 24 Toussaint2

Margo and Taffy would get me to come up on stage and sing back up with them and then I’d play a couple of harmonica songs with them. You know so I got the fall in with them for a while. That was cool, that was a good experience because they were great vocalist. That helped me with my singing a lot. A whole lot so stuff like that. Then I’ve been on shows with Junior Wells I’ve been out west with Honey Boy Edwards and Louisiana Red who I told you who played with Robert Johnson who was real famous. God the Taj Ma Hall and The Blues maker they got us a show at the inauguration with the Blues Brothers. Which was a really good show that was downtown at the inauguration. And Sonny Roads and J. B. Huddle. It’s just everybody. There been so many great Blues players on the festival scene like Gate moth Brown. It’s just been a lot of famous Blues players. Kenny Largons from Largons and Mecina. A matter of fact Bill Danholf got us a job at inauguration where he played at with him and um we were up in Philadelphia. At the Philadelphia River festival playing. Everybody else had CD’s and Mr. Warner and I had this one little tape that Bill made for us. That we were selling. That was a great feeling. That might be one of my favorite shows because here all these great Blues players Lonny Brooks and it was a whole lot like Danny Gat it was a whole lot of them. And Kenny Largons knew us from the inauguration and here he come. I guess he told all these guys to come check us out. So I say God we must be do something right. Because they were coming to see us (both Laugh). Just things like that make it worth wild to. Yeah.

BT: How would you describe the D.C. Blues Scene?

JS: Well you know it’s not like it used to be. It used to be great. I remember back in the days like I said I was always around music. I couldn’t help it because hanging out in D.C. and Georgetown they’re use to be a place called a celled Dore and Desperados and the Bayou and Mr. Henry’s and the Charle Harrel. And all the bands from like Chicago and Billy Price, James Cotton it was just a whole lot of bands that came down from Chicago that traveled like I said it was called the chitlins circle it was like that almost because bands traveled like the College circles like Down South and all the way up north and they traveled back and forth and that was one of their mane stops and everybody was like real good friends. Everybody was like good friends all the bands mingled together and jammed together. You could go and sit in with any band you wanted to, but

Toussaint 25 people were that friendly back then. You know it was a whole lot of Blues and it shocked me one day I was in Desperado one night and the band Kiss came in their (both Laugh). They were playing at the Bayou and they came up there because that was a place where all the musicians were like The Knight Hawks. They were really famous and they had met a lot of people on the road and people came back to see them, so can meet a whole Willie Dixson and Edda James. I mean just like you meet all kinds of people in Georgetown. Yeah.

BT: Why did you choose a less know genre?

JS: Huh?

BT: Why did you choose a less known genre?

JS: I don’t know it’s just like I had the way I grew up. I had no other way to go, but to do the Blues. I had no other way it just fell in place like it was handed to me. Like I said I wanted to be a baseball player. I was a pretty good baseball player, I probably could of played on the pros, but I was in a car accident and I got hurt real bad. Yeah I got hurt real bad. I crushed my legs, I crushed my chest, I punctured my lungs, broke my jaw in three places, fractured my skull, knocked my eye out , gashed my eye. I was hurt real bad, but God work in mysterious ways, and people always say dang boy we thought you were going to go into shock. You couldn’t play baseball no more. I still get chocked up about it sometimes I look at I t way that way. Like God meant for me to do this. My grandmother told me before she dies she said I was left hear for a reason and maybe that’s what it was You know that’s what I’m doing. So that’s how I look at it.

BT: What is Piedmont Blues?

JS: Sorry

BT: What is Piedmont Blues?

JS: You know like People have a lot of different. I’ve heard of a lot of different things but like the best thing I heard was like it hadn’t been that long ago. It’s been like all these years it’s been like two weeks ago. You know I was talking to somebody and they were explained it like its finger picking and base playing at the same time. And that’s what it is because that’s something

Toussaint 26 Toussaint2 my guitar player plays and everybody and all the Piedmont I’ve heard is played like that. They played the rhythm plus the base line at the same time and that’s what I think Piedmont Blues really is. That was a good way explaining it. Yeah. All these years I heard it explained.

BT: How is it different then other Blues genres?

JS: Well other Blues like Chicago and up tempo the vocals are different. And it’s not a lot of thought For instance Piedmont Blues players can play and sound like a whole band. People always say We have a harmonica and a guitar duo and Sea For son Wiggins have a harmonica and a guitar duo. And these two bands these two groups can be playing and you would think it’s a whole band playing when there is two people sitting there playing. And most other Blues is the . Yeah.

BT: What does Washington have to offer a Blues musician?

JS: Well it’s the nation’s capitol. It’s a lot of people traveling through here and um jobs is picking up here for Blues musicians. Blues is coming back I think and they have The D.C. Blues Society, they have the Baltimore Blues Society. And um they’re getting to be pretty big. And they have a lot more festivals and stuff. And um I think its going to be pretty good for the area. I would think they should’ve never have never left. They should’ve never took it out of the clubs that were here because it drew a lot of money and it was a lot of fun. A lot more people are liking the Blues and more people from down south are coming here. Since the Katrina thing and so its more musicians going to be here.

BT: Why do you think they took away some of the clubs?

JS: I don’t know man. It’s like they thought they can make more money. The way they’re doing it now everything has changed so much. I seen Rockville change so much, I never thought I would never be like that from the one way streets and little stores. You know and um I just everything growing bigger, but I think people really miss the little clubs and stuff like that. The club scenes because you need entertainment with just like they talking about the inauguration. You know a lot of people want the bars open. You know, but um that could be bad and good you

Toussaint 27 know, but um you know they’re always looking at finances. That’s the whole thing. That’s the root of all evil. (Both Laugh). That’s the root of all evil. Yup and that’s why we are in the bind that we in now today. I think that’s my opinion. Everybody has an opinion. You know, but that’s my opinion everything is about finance and people didn’t use to live like that. People use to care about each other. Now a days have it so hard to live they are you can’t go in your door and be safe. You know. You can’t go home at night and not look behind you. Till you get in your door and when your in your door your not even safe. It’s bad. It’s bad but all those because of finances.

BT: How did you get into teaching Blues?

JS: People hearing and you know wanting to learn and they always ask me and I have stores that ask me. Do I want to come and teach in their stores? My friend Phil Wiggins and John Seafords they were working out at Washington State at this place called Centrum. That’s where they shot the movie Officer of the Gentlemen. It was a fort called Fort Ward and um they had these series out there and they got me to come out there. A bunch of my friends its about 10 musicians that day. Bring all the way across the country to teach at the seminar up there. Then they have another seminar at Elkians and they asked me to teach there, so I went there and taught one time. I did the Western Maryland Blues Festival, so now every time I get hired for the last 20 years. I’ve been asked to do workshops, so I really like it. And its funny because this one little girl in Hagerstown Western Maryland Blues Festival. She was in one of my workshops and like her dad brought her back two years later. They saw I was going to be there and he came back and she played for me and I didn’t believe it. And he said because of me she did that. So that made me feel really good. That’s what I was talking about giving back and I talked to like this guy um Sammie Davis Jr.. Sammie Davis he is a harmonica player. Not to the Sammie Davis Jr. that danced, but there is another Sammie Davis Jr. that’s um a pretty good harmonica player. He is pretty famous he played harmonica and um he played in a concert with me and he came and he start talking to me. Just wanted to show me something, so I think like people it’s a thing of leaving somebody with something. You know like Junior Wells and like Junior Wells is real famous and it was a time of day I never thought I ‘d meet Junior Wells. You know but I did and we did the Mississippi Valley Blues Festival together. And um I um spent a lot of time with them

Toussaint 28 Toussaint2 sitting around partying and playing, showing me this and showing me that. And Um just jamming and having a good time. And then um Mick Fleetwood from Fleetwood Mack he had a place in Virginia and um he called me up and wanted me to play there. And um I said wow it feels good when somebody with authority calls you and wants you thinks you’re an alright enough to play in their place you know. And then Junior Wells he called me when he played there and got me to come down. You know and I went down and we hung out all night and played and had fun you know and um talked and they always would talk to you. But that’s good. Like I say talking is good for you because you learn more by talking then you do in a book. Some people don’t realize its good to talk to people and um we spent all that time together. Then two or three weeks later somebody called me and said he passed. You know it’s like that was a reason for him calling me maybe he knew. You know and maybe he knew It’s strange everybody got some and Blues most feel like. Like my friend Mike Baytop he played with this guy Archie Edwards who went all around and playing and he left him with something. You know what I mean it’s like everybody has and these Blues musician the old black Blues people they are like really particular about who they leave stuff with. They really like because of what I told you what happened years ago about people stealing their music and stuff. And um they’re really particular who they teach this and teach that so like you’re the chosen one. And you feel like you have to carry this on. Now like I am like I feel like I am not stuck that’s just the way of putting it I got this to carry on. I feel like I want to carry this tradition on. Yeah.

BT: How does it feel not to go to stardom?

JS: You know it’s not a thing of going for stardom. I’m not trying to get there. You know Blues players are not like that I think. Like they don’t want to be like rap musicians you know. It’s not a thing like that. They don’t call it stardom. They’re just carrying out what they got to carry out. There use to be a story about the cross roads. That’s where thing of Robert Johnson came from. (He Laughs) About the cross roads. About playing for the devil you know what I mean , because people say Blues is devil music. (Both Laugh) But um it’s not like that. It’s like I don’t know. I guess where I say I am stuck and its not being stuck, because you want to do it. Because you get this feeling you just want to do this. You just want to carry it on.

Toussaint 29 BT: What did you take away from the 4 years of your Blues career?

JS: I guess the most thing is just sharing feelings with people. And I feel like now I have to leave something here. You know what I mean and it’s a good feeling. Just like I wanted to sit down here and talk to you, but it was a reason you know what I mean. It’s like I want you to know about it and I want the tradition to keep going. And that’s the same with the Smithsonian. Like my friend Nick Spitzer he goes around and he digs and finds and finds all these people all around the world and um that’s a thing of keeping the tradition going. Because at one time it was going down and its something that should never be lost because it was a way of living It was a way of people expressing their feelings and um communicating. And. Music people live by music. Like the Blues if you listen to the Blues you’ll find things you don’t want to be involved in. (both laugh). You know what I mean. Yeah so it’s like it’s a way of living. And People live by music. Blues gives people a good feeling. You always see people. People hear Blues and they’re grooving man. (Jay Summerour dances). It leaves people in a good mood and um you know that’s a good way to be.

BT: What would you have done differently if you had to change something about your career?

JS: Nothing, It’s been great. It’s been fantastic. I love. And I guess like when I was young. When I was a teenager I was making 25 dollars a night, then 50 dollars a night, then a 100 dollars a night. But the money wasn’t really nothing. Now it’s got to be a couple thousand dollars a night, but um that wasn’t a big thing. That wasn’t a big picture. I wouldn’t of done nothing different. I love it and I think it’s good the way I came along. A lot of musicians say its like paying your dues. You got to earn it and that’s what I tell people. People pay you money to get you to teach them and learn, but its not a thing. When I teach I tell people and sit there and talk for a while. You know, because the Blues got to be in you before you can do it, so you got to earn it. It’s a thing of paying your dues. If you pay your dues then you can enjoy it. (he laughs)It’s like tides. You know.

BT: What is your opinion of other genres like Rap? ? R&B? And Jazz?

Toussaint 30 Toussaint2

JS: Well every. I can’t knock it. Everybody got there opinion, but the only thing I don’t like is these videos. That’s my opinion. I don’t like. I don’t think and I hate to put it. It goes back to race all the time and I hate that and that’s where Blues come from. You know, but um I think its putting our black women down. I don’t like the video’s and stuff they have. And I don’t think the women should be doing all them dancing and taking off all them clothes and undressing and stuff like that. I just I can’t get into it and I’m a man. I’m all man, but I don’t like for women to exploit themselves like that. I rather be in the 20’s with the long dresses. You got to have imagination. I just don’t like all that stuff and its’ funny because I am not the only person either. Because I was reading Ebony magazine the other day and its’ a lot of people that’s up set with that thing about that kind of music. It’s not the music its just the thing of putting some of the lyrics and the woman dancing in the videos. You know.

BT: How do you think they can change that?

JS: Don’t do it. (Both laugh) It’s just no way you can make it. Like Junior Wells you see videos I can show you videos of Junior Wells, Smokey Robinson, you see woman dressed beautifully, hand dancing. Like I was telling you about hand dancing, swinging, and dipping. They were having a ball, but the women were classy, they weren’t trashy. They were classy. It’s a difference. My girls I got teenage girls who won’t go out this house like that. That’s because I installed this in them. You know I installed that in them.

BT: Why do you think music is like that today?

JS: That’s a hard question. I guess because times got hard and people got violent. You know people use to be loving people man. I remember when my parents would take me out and we would go to these ball games and juke joints and they would have prayer meeting and dance at night. You know like they would have a dance at night and drink and have a good time. But they would pray before they went to these things. They had little church services and they can take the kids and leave the kids with one parent or two parents. And the kids were taken care of and kids would eat and kids would play together and the parents that went out didn’t have to worry about

Toussaint 31 their kids. Because they knew their kids were in a loving place. You know it’s a big difference between now and then.

BT: What do you think about the phrase sex sells?

JS: I don’t know. I never heard that.

BT: You never heard of that?

JS: What is it?

BT: Sex sells.

JS: Nah

BT: What do you think about the Blues today?

JS: It’s getting better and I am glad. I find a lot of young kids are like I said I do the Blues in the School Program, so I got to colleges and I see a lot of kids are coming to it. And They have a good time and they enjoy it. That’s why I do that because kids have to listen to it. Some kids they are not going to turn on the radio and hear it. A lot of them do now. A lot more of them do, but I um see a lot. We go to like the student union buildings at different colleges and play and more of them are coming. I think its going to be better. I think its coming back.

BT: Do you think the Blues can help the youth out today?

JS: Yes very much so.

BT: How?

JS: I think its going to take away the violence. It’s a lot of violence in the music the kids listen to. If you look back in time the music was a reason for a lot of generations living in different ways. Like a certain type of music was around people lived in certain ways. Like when the Blues were around people drank and had a good time. When rock and roll was around people smoked pot and did they’re drugs and rock and roll. And then when that want away and the rap came then the violence came, so music has a lot to do with the way people live.

Toussaint 32 Toussaint2

BT: Do you think rap is the cause of violence today?

JS: A lot of it. A lot of kids want to be. Man that’s my opinion. Like I say everybody got a opinion. But that’s my opinion. I see a lot of violence in the music and people want to be gang banging because that’s what they see and they think that’s the cool thing. Then they try to influence kids and then you get a lot of bullying going on. You know like now it didn’t use to be like that and all this had happen when the videos came out. Like the news a lot of the things. The news ticks me off sometimes, because things on the news I don’t think they should so you know. A lot of the things on the news, I don’t think people need to know about. Because they actually tell people how they get caught doing crimes and they use that to try and to make themselves better doing the crime. I was watching this thing about the government they were showing how people were sneaking drugs and guns in the country in Florida. I mean so they tell them how the people did better and doing it better the other way. I mean you just don’t do that. You know you don’t do that.

BT: How do you want to be remembered?

JS: As a good person. (he laughs) As a happy person. Yeah and sharing yup.

BT: Do you feel like you’re leaving part of your elf with the youth today? With the people you teach.

JS: Yeah I think I’ve done pretty much. And I hope I am here to do a lot more. You know. Like I go to elementary schools sometimes. I go in and play for kids and stuff and like drive my bus one day last week this kid. Boy this kid is bad(both laugh). I took my harmonica to work with me right and I said hey man I want to show you something because he playing an instrument you know. I said come here I want to show you something. I got him and his sister and said y’all stay on the bus for a minute right. So I pulled up and pulled up and pulled over. I pulled my harmonica out and I started playing and they said wow Mr. Jay that’s bad. Aw they told all the kids you know Mr. Jay did. (Both Laugh) That’s cool. I gave them one of my business cards and I told them to look on the internet on Google and Google my name in. and um see what I do for a living. And tell them why I like music. And I said you keep playing music. You really going to

Toussaint 33 enjoy it one day. You going to be able to sit down and keep yourself company. You know. I try to influence kids like that give them a thought. If I can get one kid to turn around and think positive, then I am a happy man. Yeah.

BT: What role will Blues have in the future?

JS: What role will it have in the future? It’ll give people something to do. People need stuff to do. People like work hard and like a lot of people. I had people come to me down in D.C.to hotels and traveling and business trips and that’s they’re way of winding down. And it’s a good way. Blues is something that you can listen to and hold a conversation. A lot of hire duos because they can listen to it and have a conversation, they can have their little taste of whatever you want to call it. But they can communicate and it’s a sociable type of music. And its enjoyable.

BT: Blues seems to always be characterized as pain and sorrow music. Isn’t there more then that?

JS: O its a lot more then that. It’s like the way people have lived and like I say it’s a way you can listen to it and laugh at it. You know it’s a comical thing. People take it as a joke now. You know and they know it’s something you can’t do. You hear something and I ain’t ever going to do that. I ain’t ever going to try that. People laugh at it. People get knocked upside the head by a woman with a frying pan. (both Laugh) It’s a joke now. Yeah, it’s a joke people take it as joke and they laugh at it. Blues is fun.

BT: How do you think Blues can better itself?

JS: I think it’s alright the only thing I can think of is get it around more. Just get it around more. Just get it out. You know. Kids need to know where they came from. If kids that’s another thing. Like kids can look back. Like I tell kids times I had. I wish I can find old pictures of kids sitting down and shooting marbles and the parents listen to Blues. The fire going and ribs on the fire corn on the cob. I wish people had movies like that. Just to show kids good times and the social times. A lot of people don’t socialize and like I say the best thing in the world is people sit down and talk. People to busy fighting instead of sitting down and socializing with each other. Man

Toussaint 34 Toussaint2 and they don’t even know each other. They don’t even know each other. You can live next door to somebody and don’t know them. It’s bad yup.

BT: What is the future for Blues as a musical genre?

JS: Um I think it’s good. I think it’s good. It’s got to be good. It’s real good. Yeah

BT: Do you think Blues has a bright future?

JS: A very bright future. It’s like I say it’s coming back and people are asking for it. You know you find all these things on tv like the Blues station. And um the Smithsonian has a catalog of all kind of Blues you can buy you know. They have a big catalog and people ordering and people go out their way to get good Blues. Yes this lady she’s the president of the homeowners here and I actually put a package together for her and she was in heaven. Yeah it’s a great future for the Blues.

BT: How do you think people can get Blues more out there in music today?

JS: I think its doing a good job. They’ve got festivals. They got shows. They got tv shows. Well a matter of fact they have a great do opp show which I put in the category with Blues so they have all these benefits on tv and radio. Basically more Blues concerts. Yeah it’s like I hope a lot more kids start playing the Blues. You got to get more Blues groups together.

BT: Is there a difference between Blues and ragtime because some people relate them?

JS: It’s a basic. It’s just about the same a lot in common. You can have a lot a swing Blues and rag type of Blues People mix them things up. I teach kids or adults. I tell them learn nursery rhymes. You know Mary had A Little Lamb, and Ole McDonald, and Sweet Low and Sweet Chariot, and just different parts of that people recognize. And sometimes when I’m playing a song I might break out and play Ole Susiana in a middle of a solo or um I might play Old McDonald or Mary had a little Lamb. Or something like that in the middle of my solo. You can mix a lot of different type of music, because I did a album a cd with these kids from Africa and I never thought of playing a harmonica and Africa music. This friend of mine he is a lawyer he

Toussaint 35 went to Africa and he recorded this choir singing Christian music and he brought it back here and we went in the studio and put music to it. And it was amazing. It was amazing of the feeling I got. I was just like I was playing the Blues, so you can mix all types of music together. Jazz I played with jazz bands sometimes. You know it’s the same thing if you mix it together.

BT: If you can work with one person who would it be?

JS: One person. Well the guy I am working with. I love working with him. We’ve been working together for 25 years, so him and I and he is getting older. He is about 89 years old or 78 or 79 years old. We’ve been playing together and this other guy Mike Baytop and Rick Franklin, but Mike has traveled with us and helped us around the country helped us drive because my partner wont fly, so Mike helped us drive he learned a lot of stuff from him. A matter of fact they might be family. ( He Laughs). But Mike and I learned a lot from him and the guy Mike use to travel with. But Mike and I planned to play with each other for a long time. We hope to play with each other for a long time. We hope we live along time to play together And using stuff that these guys left with us. Like I say I feel they left us here for something for a reason. For us to carry on and go to somebody else, so the tradition will never die.

BT: My last question is, is there anything I failed to ask you that you think is important for me to know to understand for this project?

JS: You did a very good job. I think I told you all I can tell you cause I am willing to share with you and um I think you covered a lot of stuff. You had very good questions.

BT: Thank You

JS: I think whoever listens to this interview should learn a lot about the Blues.

(Both Laugh)

BT: Thanks

JS: Your Welcome

Toussaint 36 Toussaint2

Time Indexing Log 1. Interviewer: Brendan Toussaint

2. Interviewee: Jay Summerour

3. Date of Interview: 12/20/08

4. Location of the Interview: Mr. Summerour’s Home

5. Recording Format: I-pod Recorder

Minute Mark Topics presented

5:00 Family life and Blues Music Surrounding the Family 10:00 Blacks Participation in music

15:00 His Career as a Blues Musician VS. Family Life 20:00 Woman in Blues and Job vs. Blues Career 25:00 Building his Blues Career 30:00 Great Blues Musicians 35:00 Blues is Becoming Bigger

40:00 Teaching Blues Music

45:00 Defines Blues and Blues Change His Life

50:00 Opinion on other Genres

55:00 Playing for the Kids. Music Influencing

1:00:50 The Future of Blues Final Comments and Thank You’s Toussaint 37 Analysis

Historian Edward Hallet Carr defines history as “A continuous process of interaction between the historian and his facts, an unending dialogue between the past and the present”

There are many types of historical sources, one type is oral history. Historian Donald Ritchie said “Oral History is a historical method that collects and preserves first hand interview through recorded interview”. When examining the Blues through oral history, Mr. Summerour provided me with basic facts about his participation with Blues music. Jay Summerour defined Blues as “a poor man feeling bad” (qtd. in Toussaint 4). Blues generates from negro from the slave era. The interview was valuable especially when compared to other sources. My interview equated Blues music as devil music and so did the sources I examined for my contextualization paper. The interview with Jay Summerour is valuable because it gives the reader a deeper insight into a Blues musician life and to Blues as a musical genre. The insight given to me by Mr.

Summerour is not shown many traditional history source, because Jay Summerour is a direct participant in the Blues. Toussaint2

Oral history is very different compared to other historical sources. Oral history is a first- hand recorded account of someone who was at a certain moment in history. Even though there are many other sources that can be a first-hand account, they are not the same as oral history.

Oral history is different because it is a participant reflecting on a event he or she was involved in.

The interviewee is important because there is a certain emotional connection the person might have. The person has to have some emotional connection to the experience because they participated in that event. The interviewee is a first person perspective. The difference is oral

Toussaint 38 history is a recorded interview and the other first-hand accounts are more often diaries and letters. Oral Historian Linda Shopes said:

Oral History is a maddeningly imprecise term: it is used to refer to formal,

rehearsed accounts of the past presented by culturally sanctioned tradition-

bearers; to informal conversations about "the old days" among family members,

neighbors, or coworkers; to printed compilations of stories told about past times

and present experiences; and to recorded interviews with individuals deemed to

have an important story to tell. (1)

Shopes describes the basic format of an oral history interview. Shopes believes oral history is a description of the old days.

Oral history has several strengths and weaknesses, but so does every other historical source. Oral history’s strengths is that it is a first- hand account, also oral history is a person’s memory of an event. Oral history is strong because it is a living persons perspective of an event, there are possibly not that many living who participated in that event. Oral history is a specific individual’s interpretation of a time period they were involved in. Historian Donald Ritchie said

“They deemed oral evidence too subjective; shoddy memories told from a biased point of view

(3). Ritchie is describing one of oral history strengths and saying it can be a weakness as well.

Ritchie is saying that individual’s perspective are two personal which makes it subjective. Oral history is a great source because of the time and place rule. Since the person is from that specific time period he or she should have a better understanding about the event.

Toussaint 39

Just like every other source oral history has weaknesses. The first weakness oral history has is the interviewee may have a weak memory because of old age or sickness. This will lead to false information during the interview. The second weakness oral history has is it always has a bias, like every other history source. Historian Linda Shopes said

As with any source, historians must exercise critical judgment when using

interviews--just because someone says something is true, however colorfully or

convincingly they say it, doesn't mean it is true. Just because someone "was there"

doesn't mean they fully understand "what happened" (3).

The interviewee has their own thoughts and opinions about certain subjects , so they might over exaggerate about certain topics or possibly lie about certain topics. The third weakness oral history is its a subjective source. If the source is subjective it means the source is to personal.

However when oral history is combined with more traditional sources it creates a convergence of evidence, which helps us as historians get to objectivity. Toussaint2

Oral history is different compared to other types of history sources. Oral history is a recorded interview with a person who has a connection with an event. Secondary sources are the historians point of view of an event. Primary sources are similar to oral history when it comes to the time and place rule, because both oral history and primary sources are speaking about an event that the source is specifically connected to. Oral history is a living person who has a connection to an event. Oral history is a discussion about a certain time or place.

My interview with Jay Summerour describes Blues in the ‘70’s as something that was fun.

Toussaint 40

Well it was pretty good. It was a lot of music around and then there was a

lot of juke joints. We called them juke joints. A lot of clubs where the

black went and played baseball, had picnics, and danced at night. They

had people like they called the chittlins circle. People like Edda James,

and Little Richard, James Brown, a lot of groups came around. They

traveled from like up north from like Chicago all the way down to

Mississippi. And they did little juke joint shows like that( qtd. in

Toussaint1).

This is extremely important because Mr. Summerour is talking about some of the acts he saw as a kid and those fun moments watching his favorite artist. Everyone in Jay Summerour’s family had some connection to this genre of music. His grandfather was the one who sparked that yearn for music in his life. Just got dirty. (both laugh)and I um use to go out to Rockville and that’s

where my grandfather and grandmother lived. And my uncle lived next

door to them, so he had a son bout my age. And I use to go out and play

with him and my grandfather he played Blues. That’s how I got into the

Blues. My grandfather played Blues, and he would be sitting in the alley

and he would play Blues. And be a bunch of people around, so I would

listen to him a lot. And I always had a harmonica. I always tried to play.

My uncle use to say Go over there and listen to your grandfather boy. You

don’t know nothing about playing that thing (qtd. in Toussaint 1).

Toussaint 41

The quote describes how much of an impact Mr. Summerour’s grandfather had in his life. If it wasn’t for his grandfather it seems like he would’ve never experienced that connection with the

Blues. In a sense Blues maybe defined as a family connection. Mr. Summerour tried to spread his knowledge of the Blues with his daughters and youth in Maryland today. One extremely important piece to this interview was when Mr. Summerour gave his take on other music genres today.

Well every. I can’t knock it. Everybody got there opinion, but the only thing I

don’t like is these videos. That’s my opinion. I don’t like. I don’t think and I hate

to put it. It goes back to race all the time and I hate that and that’s where Blues

come from. You know, but um I think its putting our black women down. I don’t

like the video’s and stuff they have. And I don’t think the women should be doing

all them dancing and taking off all them clothes and undressing and stuff like that. Toussaint2

I just I can’t get into it and I’m a man. I’m all man, but I don’t like for women to

exploit themselves like that. I rather be in the 20’s with the long dresses. You got

to have imagination. I just don’t like all that stuff and its’ funny because I am not

the only person either. Because I was reading Ebony magazine the other day and

its’ a lot of people that’s up set with that thing about that kind of music. It’s not

the music its just the thing of putting some of the lyrics and the woman dancing in

the videos. You know (qtd. in 15 Toussaint).

This is just an example of an opinion of music today. Later in the interview Mr. Summerour said the only real way to change the negative affect of music today is to change the lyrics and videos

Toussaint 42 of the women dancing. The final most important moment about this interview is when Jay

Summerour defined Piedmont Blues.

You know like People have a lot of different. I’ve heard of a lot of different things

but like the best thing I heard was like it hadn’t been that long ago. It’s been like

all these years it’s been like two weeks ago. You know I was talking to somebody

and they were explained it like its finger picking and base playing at the same

time. And that’s what it is because that’s something my guitar player plays and

everybody and all the Piedmont I’ve heard is played like that. They played the

rhythm plus the base line at the same time and that’s what I think Piedmont Blues

really is. That was a good way explaining it. Yeah. All these years I heard it

explained (qtd. in 11 Toussaint). This quote explains Piedmont Blues as a time where the artist is finger picking his or her guitar.

Also the artist has a base playing with the finger picking at the same time.

One and only thing that really shocked me was how Mr. Summerour finalized his decision to participate in Blues music. Mr. Summerour was in a really bad accident. If Mr.

Summerour didn’t get into this accident, he would have had the opportunity to play in major league baseball.

This interview is valuable for understanding the Blues. First, it shows the life and struggles for a Blues musician. Mr. Summerour struggle relates to other musicians because he had a rough time in the beginning of his career. Also Mr. Summerour had to find away to start

Toussaint 43 his career with his partner Warner Williams. Jay Summerour talked about some of his troubles during his interview. Jay Summerour said:

Like I said I wanted to be a baseball player. I was a pretty good baseball player, I

probably could of played on the pros, but I was in a car accident and I got hurt

real bad. Yeah I got hurt real real bad. I crushed my legs, I crushed my chest, I

punctured my lungs, broke my jaw in three places, fractured my skull, knocked

my eye out , gashed my eye. I was hurt real bad, but God work in mysterious

ways, and people always say dang boy we thought you were going to go into

shock. You couldn’t play baseball no more. I still get chocked up about it

sometimes I look at I t way that way. Like God meant for me to do this. (qtd. in

11 Toussaint). Toussaint2

Jay Summerour had a chance to become a baseball player but he got into a serious accident which hurt his chances at becoming a Blues player. Redefined by traditional sources Blues has its ups and downs as described by award winning producer Alex Gibney.

It’s hard to explain, describe, or write about the Blues.

Like listening to the sound of sex through a thin motel

wall, you know the Blues when you hear it, even if you

would be hard pressed to describe exactly what is going

on. What do you know is that stirs you and that keeps

you up at night (Scorsese 8).

Toussaint 44

Alex Gibney’s quote describes how raw Blues music is. It describes the true meaning of it and how it stirs up different kinds of emotions. Blues is not really defined that much in history books.

There is definitely not many sources on the topic of Blues, this is another reason why the interview with Jay Summerour is a valuable source for history. In the history textbook, A Brief

American Pageant there is no mention of the genre of Blues music. In the end Jay Summerour interview will give a deeper insight into Blues music, something you may not find out from history textbooks.

In comparing this interview to more traditional source conducted in my research my interview showed some sense of accuracy. My sources equated Blues as a musicians struggle My interviewee Mr. Summerour showed exactly what my sources showed me. The sources said

Blues was not only supposed to be pain and sorrow music, there were also fun times with Blues music. Mr. Summerour said “Well it was pretty good. It was a lot of music around and then there was a lot of juke joints. We called them juke joints. A lot of clubs where the black went and played baseball, had picnics, and danced at night” (qtd. in Toussaint 1). The interview was accurate. A moment that really surprised me though was when Mr. Summerour described how he fell into Blues music. Mr. Summerour said that he got into a really bad accident which prevented him from wanting to go play professional baseball.

This project taught me a lot. I definitely had a rollercoaster ride with this project, but I still accomplished a lot. I had a hard time finding a person which stressed me out a lot. It aggravated me because I was so far behind all of my other classmates. Also I had a rough time doing the transcription; it took so long just to type an hour interview. I had a great moment when

Toussaint 45

I finally received someone to interview. I was extremely excited to have a person that I made it my Facebook status for one night. I learned a lot about myself. I learned I should not be so ignorant into listening to other forms of music. I mostly listen to rap music, but after this interview I am beginning to appreciate other types of music. I am now listening to Blues and also some Rock and Roll. I really do not want to write anymore interviews out again, unless I have to.

The project has taught me my strengths and weakness as a person and showed me how I can be a better person. This project showed me history had a deeper meaning than I thought. Before this project I thought history was just a bunch of dates, people, and events. This project has given me a different perspective of history, it showed me history was more than some facts a person would find in a textbook. History is how we function through our lives. Toussaint2

Toussaint 46 Works Consulted

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Perspectives on the Blues. N.p.: University Of Illinois Press, 1996. 455-479. Rpt. in The

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Davis, Francis. The History of The Blues. 2003. 2nd edition ed. N.p.: Da Capo Press, 1995.

Guralnick, Peter, and Martin Scorsese. Martin Scorsese Presents: The Blues. 2003. Ed. Peter

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Presents: The Blues. Haskins, James. Black Music In America: A History Through It’s People. 1987. Comp., ed., and

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Toussaint 47

Palmer, Colin A. “The Blues.” Encyclopedia of African-American Culture and History. Ed.

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“Piedmont Blues.” Wikipedia. 17 Dec. 2008 .

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. Toussaint2

UNC Asheville Students. “East Coast Piedmont Blues.”

http://facstaff.unca.edu/‌sinclair/‌piedmontBlues/‌Default.htm. Bryan Sinclair. 2 Feb. 2009

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Wilgus, D. K. The Blues. 1965. Vol. 78. N.p.: Universiy of Illinois, 1965. 183. Rpt. in The

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Summerour, Jay. Personal Interview by Brendan Toussaint. 20 December 2008